JRE MMA Show #173 with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez & William "Blinky" Rodriguez

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Gentlemen, what's happening? >> Joe, where do we begin? >> Where do you begin? Let me tell you. When I first came to Los Angeles in. 1994, there was two places that I had to. go. One of them was the comedy store and. the other one was the Jet Center. And I. started training the Jet Center in '94. before you guys shut down because you.

had the earthquake and you had the roof. damage. So I was there before that. happened. And I took your classes. I. took your kickboxing classes because I. remember it was very scary cuz you had a. bunch of gang members in there cuz you. were doing that like sort of outreach. program where you're helping young gang. members. >> So I had a spar with gang members. >> So I was training at the Jet Center. until it shut down and then I went. briefly when you guys reopened in North. Hollywood. I went to that place for a. little bit too. >> Gym. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But then I started training at Majiro. Gym which is in the in the valley. But.

[clears throat] uh legends. You guys are. legends, man. >> Well, thank you, Joe. >> True pioneers in martial arts. >> For you to remember was was uh really. humbled me. You remembered. You. mentioned my my son and why I was. starting that. >> Yes. >> And you don't even know what it's grown. into since that day that you seen. >> Well, tell tell the story about your son. and how that whole thing started. Well, you know, unfortunately in some. communities. drivebys aren't uncommon.

And so when it becomes a generational. curse, you know, and and and and kids. are getting killed sometimes randomly, um that happened to me. It came knocking. on my door in a valley that's got two. million people. Knocked on my door and. and uh I was just I was I'm going to put. it this way. I had a calling on my life. two. to do something about it because it. became a situation where where families.

and community was like well yeah well. that's what happens in our community and. I was saying that is not what happens in. our community this is our community and. so I begin to move I begin to move. ironically with some churches that uh. there were that had that kind of. ministry in their ministry and march, peace marches, etc. But uh my son got. shot while he was learning how to drive. a stick shift. >> Wow.

>> And uh it took his life and and that's. not normal and that's not that should. not be common. And and uh so I'm still. at it. >> You're still doing that? still going 36. years later, put a organization together. and real real some with real lived. experience, others with degrees and. really put together a whole uh nonprofit. that speaks directly to it where it's. at. And and uh so at the end of the day, um yeah,

it's over when we say it's over, you. know what I mean? And and. >> and ironically, what led the charge for me, Elise Joe, was forgiveness. The forgiveness that only God can give. I got to tell it the way it is. And uh that forgiveness ended up taking. me to the neighborhood that killed my. son. and we had a huge meeting in that.

that neighborhood in the park and a. peace treaty kicked into place. No mother's crying, no babies dying. So. to this day, I still. continue to press in with a whole. different. uh how would I say integrated service. delivery, but keeping violence in the. middle of it and dealing with it. >> That's awesome. But but yeah, >> it's and it's awesome that you brought. them to a place like the Jet Center. where they can learn discipline, learn.

how to fight, build real confidence, you. know, learn real martial arts skills, and also real martial arts mentality, especially when it's coming from guys. like you, you know? I mean, I remember. when you knocked out Jean Eve Tero. Jean. Eve Tero was the [ __ ] man. He was the. man. Everybody was terrified of that. guy. And you, I believe you knocked him. out with a left hook. Is that correct? >> Right leg, left hook. Yeah, the combo. >> You know them old traditional shakan. sweeps. >> where you turn it over with the instep. and you know what I'm talking about.

>> and you reset and come back with the. money. >> Yeah. >> But uh it was uh and he's a bad dude. He. went on to have a great career. >> Amazing career. Yeah. I mean, he's one. of the all-time greats in kickboxing, >> you know. >> And you know, it's just I think it's. important for people to recognize the. the real pioneers. And Benny, you were a. real pioneer. I mean, there was no one. like you when you emerged. When you. emerged in the kickboxing scene, the. karate scene, there was no one like you.

And you know, you went undefeated and. you [snorts] took on people of all. sizes. And to this day, there's amazing. highlights of you on the internet that. people still bring up because, you know, you were I mean, you were fighting ties. when you had no training like that. You. know, you you were getting low kicked by. those dudes and still found out a way to. win. It's pretty crazy. >> Well, you know, I tell you, it was uh. when my brother asked me, "Would you. want to fight to uh Tai, you know, and I.

said, "What's Tai?" He said, "Muay. Thai." And I said, "I'll fight him." I. honestly I thought that was his name. [laughter]. I had no idea what Muay Thai was at the. time. And so, um, we we took it on. And. >> where was the first Muay Thai fight that. you had? >> Matter of fact, it was at the Olympic. Auditorium. um when we first fought Ernest Hart. Yes. Ernest Hart fought the first uh. Thai champion and that was the main. event. And uh I tell you what, when I.

first got kicked in the legs, uh my eyes bulged out of my forehead. I. said, I mean, I I have strong legs, but. I've never had anybody try to break my. legs. And so it was a rude awakening, but it was the best thing that ever. happened to me because he took me to the. streets. He really did because when he. started abling kneeing to my face and I. said, "Oh, you want to fight that way?". Okay. I didn't understand it. I just.

thought that all right. >> Did you know what the rules were? >> No. >> That's crazy. So you didn't know they. were going to use elbows or knees? >> No. >> That is crazy. All I knew is. Muay Thai. [laughter]. >> Norang Noi. >> Nori was was the guy that he fought that. night. >> Lumping stadium. >> Yeah, he was a great champion as well. >> Oh, without a doubt. >> That's so crazy that you didn't even. know what you were in for. Like who who. was the promoter that set that up?

Uh, you know, actually, believe it or. not, my brother Arnold was asked, you. know, he says he was calling me the. world champion because in 73 it was. called Full Contact Karate. And Blink. and I, we, you know, we went to Hawaii. and no rules, no weight divisions, no. nothing. So for the. >> How much did you weigh back then? >> 145. >> Wow. >> And so I end up beating actually. >> 160. [laughter]. and and Blinky. There was four of us.

left after we fought five, six times on. Friday and then we fought a couple of. more times on uh Sunday. >> You fought two days? >> Yeah, there was that many. No rule. It. was just weight division. I mean, it was. no weight division. It was just. >> brackets. >> That's it. So, Blinkcky end up fighting. There was four of us. I I fought Bernest. White and Blink and I told Blinky I. said, "You know what? this guy now he's. know you know he's 245 lbs Dana Goodson.

6'3 and I said blinking. they don't want to see you and I fight. they want to see David and Goliath they. want to see me fight him and I said so. if you don't knock him out you're not. going to win cuz this guy they're. they're kind of you know wanting to keep. him up and. uh sure enough then and I said blinky If. you don't knock him out, you don't, you. know, hurt him [laughter].

for me. So, because I knew I was gonna. fight him next. That's what That's what it was. >> So, he was a 240 lbs. >> Yeah. 245 pounds. >> And you were 145. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> I You could pick him up and throw him. around. So, I I I got him tired. [laughter]. >> So, what were the rules? There was no. rules at all. No rules. >> So, could you stomp on the ground? Could. you soccer kick? Could you do all that? >> You know what? There was no rules. I. actually threw him. I pinned him on the.

ground. He started to roll me over. I. spit my mouth. I bit him on the chest. >> Oh my god. >> He pal strike my face. And we got up and. my my teeth markers on his chest. He. said, "You bit me." And I said, "I was. getting tired." [laughter]. >> So, how did they did they have. submissions? Did anybody know. submissions back then? >> No. Well, you know what? We we did cuz. we're we're we uh in judo, you know, we're black belts and judo man back in.

back in 60. We were already doing judo. and and Nick and I were already boxing. back then. So, we had a good idea of the. contact. It's just there was no rules at the. time. No rules, no weight divisions. It. was just elimination. So, that happened for almost two years. from 73 to 75. And then it started that's when I first. heard of Muay Thai. >> Are there any of those no rules fights. available on video? Can people watch any.

of those fights? >> Absolutely. >> Are they online? >> No. >> Where are they? >> Actually, there's some, but you know. what? Uh. >> we're doing a actually I'm uh doing a. documentary and we're bringing a lot of. I have film from 69 to 96. I'm 2. millimeter, Miller. Yeah. I mean, I'm. talking about bait him out and they're. actually putting together old fights. So, you'll see Blink and I way back then. uh fighting uh Black and White. And then.

this. >> Well, there's some available online that. are So, this is you against how do you. say that guy's name? Kayat Bandit. Nagaroni. Kayat Bandit. So, is this another Muay Thai guy? Yes. >> Yes. So was this after you had fought Muay. Thai already previously? >> Yes. Uhhuh. Because I started to. recognize what it was about. >> Mhm. So how many Muay Thai fights had. you had before you fought this guy? >> Two. >> Two. So when you trained in this like.

when So after the first fight, did you. bring in a Muay Thai guy to train with. and explain you elbows and show you how. they're throwing their techniques or how. did you how did you learn how to deal. with these guys? basically uh somebody. had black and white with filming and I. kind of looked at it and I went to an. old gentleman that used to do uh uh. actually do clothing and shoes and so. forth and this leather shop and I asked.

him I said I want to protect my shins. He old older man and I said I want to. protect my shins. you have something and. and he brought out some pad and I said, "Yeah." And I told him, "I want to put. it around my shins." So, I I created the. first uh shin guards. >> You were the guy who invented the shin. guard. Yeah. >> Oh, that's great. >> And I told him, "How do we keep it. together?" And he said, "And he's the. one that brought out the Velcro.". >> Ah. >> And so he put on he uh he sewed on.

Velcro on it. And so I ended up asking. him, "Can you make more of them?" And I. started giving to it. That's how because. we were doing uh we were doing leg. checking because we were watching them. but it was hurting us like. >> what the heck. >> Yeah. >> You know how did they do it? And then. >> so you were you guys were doing a bare. shin. >> Yeah. >> So bare shin leg kicking training hard. >> Yeah. >> That's so we didn't know any other way. >> So what were the ties doing back then? How were they protecting their shins?

>> Well, you know what they they have spray. numbing spray. >> They were spraying their shins. lidocaine. Yeah. They were putting stuff. that kind of like you couldn't they. couldn't feel it. >> They couldn't feel uh the impact. >> So after you invented shinuards, is that. how shinuards made their way to. Thailand? >> I'll put it this way. When I went to. Thailand and to work with some of the. ties, I looked at them. I said, "Oh, they're finally because they didn't have. them." I said, "Oh, you got shin guards.

here." And I was surprised. Ah, >> and but a lot of them didn't even use. them still. And some of these uh high um. up in the hills, the way they train, >> they didn't train with shining guards. They just sprayed their shins and Oh my. god. >> kick banana trees. >> Yeah, >> I've seen that. I've seen bull cow. kicking banana tree and cutting it in. half. >> Yeah. >> See, the the problem with that is I was. talking to Blinky. I said, you know, we. got a lot of uh nerves on our shins. And.

I said, and so we had a we had a doctor. that was one of our students, and I. asked him about that. He says, once you. break, you know, you you tear all the. tissues and the nerves of your shin. He. said later on it will affect you. This. is the reason why I started designing. >> so we can. >> uh and I mean these were like homemade. >> shining guards. >> So did you ever work out with a a Thai.

man like a a Muay Thai fighter who was. showing you how they do the techniques. or did you only learn it from film? >> I only learned from the film. >> Wow. >> Was there any Thai guys in LA at that. time? >> No. >> Wow. >> At that time it was there was none. When. was the first Muay Thai gym started. opening up in LA? >> Wow. It's hard to remember because we. weren't tracking with them. We were just. figuring out how to fight them, right? >> And give them Whoops. give them like. lateral movement because everything was. linear, right?

>> Everything was linear. So the American. side of kickboxing, so it, you know, obviously you had more hands. >> and but they would clinch. Once they. clinch, they nullify that. So we were. just making adjustments along the way, >> especially in Japan. This is basically. when we really started because they. started bringing us back there one right. after another. They started bringing us. back there after uh I you know I took. their belt and they couldn't believe.

Americans just went in there and took. their belt from them and they didn't. they didn't like it. They didn't want it. and they kept having us come back taking. that trying to take that belt back. >> in Japan. In Japan never happened. >> Wow. Wow. And you [snorts] got to. realize like back then this is like post. Bruce Lee movies. >> So martial arts had exploded. Karate. exploded worldwide. Everybody wanted to. learn martial arts. And Japan was kind. of at the forefront of the kickboxing.

movement, right? because they had they. had had a bunch of Muay Thai guys fight. Japanese guys and the karate guys lost. to the Muay Thai guys and then they had. to adjust and then they got rid of. elbows and created kickboxing because. they wanted more excitement. They wanted. to get rid of the clinch and get rid of. the elbows and so and then K1 was formed. out of that. >> That's right. >> It's like you're like really like. patient zero [laughter] like you know. what I'm saying? like the real mixed. martial arts movement really began with.

you guys. >> True. >> It's um. >> Yeah. You know, I was going to say, you. know, there there was a there was a. phase there because you mentioned Chuck. Norris earlier that he raised money in. Detroit and he had done Into the Dragon. >> Mhm. >> So, you he had that notoriety and he had. a cattle call. So fighters came from all. over Southern Kell to his dojo in Santa. Monica and it was it was single. eliminations to the knockout to see. which five guys would represent LA. And. the same was going on in New York, the.

New York Dragons, Detroit, the Detroit. Dragons, DC, the DC Dynamos, and and. then the the the Texas Gladiators. Those. were the teams people were vying for, and we we participated. and I end up. becoming the middleweight starter. Benny. was the lightweight. And then Steve. Sanders, who was the old name in. traditional karate, three of his guys. from the Black Karate Federation, Ernest, Mad Man, Russell, Danny. Ferguson, Sugar Bear, we were the LA.

team. And the what what's crazy is that. you won as a team. If you went out there. and knocked the guy out or you got. knocked out, they got 25 points. >> Ah. and and so it was accumulation of of. points that you would get $1,500, but the losers got 700. So So that so. that took off and the last uh tournament. or fight show that they had was at at uh. in Detroit.

and and after that that's when you know. things started going another direction. But it's just interesting. >> the way that it evolved, >> right? >> Have you have you ever heard of the PKA? >> Yes, sure. Okay. So, >> the PKA started with Don Quin, Judy. Quan. They But only. >> that was from the waist up, >> right? >> And only because they were protecting. Bill because he didn't like getting. kicked in the legs. >> Superfoot. Bill Walls. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And so in that, >> so that's why they decided not to have.

the legs kick cuz Bill only had one good. knee, right? He had one knee that was. messed up, which is why he only threw. like left kicks. >> That That's it. That front leg. This. episode is brought to you by Paramount. Plus. The new era of UFC on Paramount. Plus comes out swinging. Showstoppping. highlight machine Justin Gatei collides. with Liverpool phenom Patty the Batty. Pimpblelet. It's a must-see main event. Plus, Sugara Shawn Ali faces off against. Song Dong in a standup war filled with. highlevel striking. Stream UFC 3:24.

Saturday at 900 p.m. Eastern only on. Paramount Plus. Visit. paramountplus.com/ufc. to get started. >> Yeah, but nasty though. >> Yeah, it was just predicated upon that. But they just waste down. See the fight. with Johnny Terio, he was a you know, >> you know, waist down, no no kicks. But. there was a sanction by the WK that. allowed leg kicks, leg sweeps, and.

that's how I was able to set them up. with that. But but at the end of the. day, I mean, uh Yeah. I mean, >> so when you say leg sweeps, you were. allowed to kick below the knee. >> Yes. Interesting. You could kick and and. I would set him up with the kick between. the ankle and the calf. >> Well, what's interesting now is like. that is one of the primary weapons of. MMA now is the calf kick. It's. interesting, right? Like cuz people kind. of slept on the calf kick for a long. time. >> Well, people that are dancers, they like.

to dance in the ring. >> Mhm. >> You went for the calf and they were. flatfooted and they couldn't dance no. more. >> Yeah. >> So, you want to stop somebody that was. dancing, you go right for the calf and. they become flatfooted. But if you you. had some people that were had good right. hands, you kick them in the thighs, they. couldn't lean on that front leg to hit. with a right cross. So there was there. was a really a method of of uh combat of. warriorship in there that we we. developed over the years that we knew.

how to take power from the from our. opponent. >> It's just crazy that it took so long for. MMA to recognize the potency of the calf. kick because you know I talked to Daniel. Cormier who was a two division world. champion. I talked to Michael Bisping. Michael Bisping became a middleweight. world champion. never got calf kicked. his entire career cuz the calf kick kind. of emerged after he became a champion. Now, what's really interesting is what's. happening right now. So, in kickboxing. and in Muay Thai, people thought, "Oh,

the calf kick doesn't work there because. the ties know how to block it." Well, the Japanese fighters, the Kyokushin. guys are now dominating some of the Thai. guys because they kick calves. There's. this bad [ __ ] from Japan named. Yuki Yoza. And this, you know who he is? That dude is lighting these people on. fire because [clears throat] he's just. constant combinations and chopping at. the calves and chopping from the inside. and the outside with every combination. and he's crippling ties to the point.

where they can't move and they're. getting beat up and knocked out. There's. another guy, Masaki Nori, and he's doing. the same thing. and he beat just beat. Tawwen Chai who's like one of the best. Thai guys and the way he beat him was. brutalizing his calves just kicking the. inside of the calf, the outside of the. calf, stopped all the movement and then. caught him with a left hook. >> Yeah. And and that's why for me at least. going into that fight with Bill Wallace, it was like it if you're not kicking. calf, thigh, body, and head, it's not.

international, right? Cuz everywhere. else in the world, that's what they're. doing. >> Cuz you guys already experienced that. Whereas a lot of the karate guys, they. hadn't they hadn't they hadn't. experienced that yet. >> So the fight with Bill and I was the. first live broadcast on CBS Sports. Spectacular. >> to air. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So and and and the irony, you. know, and it is what it is. Look it I I. get it. I think any any fighter, any any. champion f just a fighter period rather, you know, get knocked out than get.

robbed, >> right? >> Knock me out. You know, if you do, do do. it. more power to you. But but so then. you know that that was kind of what. lingered lingered within there and there. was a time we were almost going to. rematch and it didn't happen. But at the. end of the day uh the fight with Joe uh. excuse me uh what's his name? Oh my god. I'm having a senior moment. Joe, [laughter]. >> you don't have those though. Jo soon. enough. Yeah. But Johnny's Tero, you.

know what I mean? That was the. difference in that fight that I could. kick the calf. >> Mhm. And so when you got a money move. that you've developed over the course of. time because we were Kempo Shodakhan at. first and you know Kemple you had little. flash but with the shakan it was front. kick it was right leg sweeps like that. and so I was able to utilize that. technique and it worked for me to come. back with the hook the way I did but at. the end of the day man it's been a long. journey from there. M it really h well.

we got to see some glimpses of guys who. were skillful with leg kicks fight guys. who didn't know what to do with them and. then their progression because a good. example is Don the Dragon Wilson when he. fought Dennis Alexio right. >> Dennis Alexio was a scary man who's a. destroyer and back in the day when. Dennis Alexio was fighting it was all. above the waist stuff and then he agreed. to a below the waist kick with Don. Wilson and Don Wilson just took his legs. away he just kept kicking I mean Dennis. Alex was a tank tank. Man, that guy was. a powerhouse.

>> We knew him. >> But Don Don just kept chopping at those. legs and chopping at those legs and. eventually Dennis could barely move. >> Yeah. Actually, uh Dennis ended up. fighting one of our fighters. >> Well, was it No, no, it was uh not. notice. It was uh. >> um. >> I uh anyway, you was from Australia and. >> Stan Linus. Sanj. the thunder from down under. >> Yeah, I remember that dude. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think he broke Dennis. Alexio's leg. >> His his femur. >> Yeah, he broke it with a leg kick, which. is. >> Yes, he did. >> So, and. >> Yeah, there it is. >> Boom. Right there. >> Right there. He. >> I think it was in Hawaii. >> I think it was his lower leg. [clears throat]. >> Was it? >> Seemed like it was his lower leg. Yeah. >> Right here. Boom. Yep. He checked it. Oh, yeah. You see it buckling. Oh. Oh. god. >> Was that [snorts] Dennis Alexio's last. fight? >> That's the last time I've seen him fight.

>> because I mean, how do you Most guys. when that happens, it's over. That's. crazy. >> So Stan the Man came to stay at the Jet. Center for a while. So he lived he lived. in town with us uh for quite a while. >> My Yeah. My friend Shuki Ron from uh. Majurro Gym said that he was training. with Stan Lojinz and he said he got a. hip replacement because Stan Ljinz was. kicking his legs so hard with the pads. on, you know, where they hold this the. shield.

>> He said he had to get a hip replacement. from getting kicked that hard. >> How crazy is that? >> Yeah. >> You know, back then it it was. >> not how hard you hit, it was how right. you were hitting. >> Sure. >> And that and he. >> Yeah, >> man. when he hit he hit that target. right on the money. >> Well, it looked like Dennis was trying. to check it and he didn't turn. >> Oh, yeah. Well, I mean the the. >> uh even the impact it was the way he. shot the impact. >> Just sheer power, too. I mean, just. right on that right on that shin bone.

>> Crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's But the thing. is, [clears throat] unfortunately, what. happened was PKA karate became a thing. was remember you had to get a minimum. amount of kicks in every round. eight. eight kicks per. >> you had to do math while you're. fighting. >> But it was also. >> I'm sorry. >> A lot of the guys were not good kickers. And so what it became is guys who. weren't that good a kicker and then they. would box and it was kind of sloppy. boxing. And so it lost a lot of the. appeal to the American public, which was.

unfortunate because if they just allowed. low kicks from the beginning and we got. to see the guys from Japan, we got to. see the guys from Thailand. We got to. see you guys do all your thing, it would. have probably flourished in America and. been as big as MMA. because this is. something that I've been trying to push. with the UFC because you know one. championship fight they do a real good. job with it where they have they'll have. Muay Thai fights, they'll have. kickboxing fights and they also have MMA. and they also even have grappling. competitions. But I've been trying to. say to the UFC like if you like a lot of.

times people boo when people go to the. ground. Well, here's a solution. Have. some fights where it's just standup. fights. Have some fights MMA gloves Muay. Thai rules. you know, where you don't go to the. ground like have that. I mean, it would. be incredibly exciting and have, you. know, like or you could even do a whole. promotion of it. But. >> in America, unfortunately, kickboxing. because of the PKA in what they call it, the kick of the 80s. Remember back then?

That's what they called it, right? PK. karate, the kick of the 80s. >> That's right. >> Brad Brad bad. >> Bad Brad Heft. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there was there was a lot of guys. that were really good. Uh Jerry Trimble, he was really good. I met him once on a set. I think we. [clears throat] did like a commercial. together or some [ __ ] I forget what it. was, but I met him when he's been doing. a lot of acting, >> but those guys were really good. Of. course, Rick Rufus. Rick Rufus was. outstanding and he changed the course of. his life from fighting a tie, too. Well, he got broken down by that one tie dude.

That's right. >> And had to learn leg kicks and had to. learn what that's all about. But if they. had allowed that on TV from the. beginning, I think PKA karate would have. been hugely successful. >> You know, the and the PKA because of. Bill Wallace. It was from the waist from. the waist up. >> And so my brother and Howard Hansen. started the WKA, World Karate. And. that's why we went to Japan and we. started saying everything went because.

in Japan elbows and knees and so forth. because they're Muay Thai fighters over. there and I figured okay. >> then to me there's no rules. Let's go. >> It's interesting because in K1 they. eliminated the elbows. That's right. >> They just wanted less cuts. There were. like too many people getting cut and. fights were getting stopped from cuts. That's right. And we just want more. action. But you know the really purpose. of that is because you know uh the. insurance behind it I mean people were. getting I mean I'm talking about just.

their lips open up across their eyebrows. and I mean they were getting from the. elbows like. >> they were like. >> axes going across your face you know. with elbows and so forth and brutal. >> But the but the tie they they wanted to. catch you with the elbow cuz they wanted. you to bleed cuz the fight's over. M. well they're so good at slicing across. those elbows. >> that downward angle and that's what. really cuts you open especially to the. forehead and the forehead bleeds like. crazy. >> you know it's it the one decision to.

benefit Bill Superfoot Wallace probably. screwed over kickboxing in America kind. of crazy because then Bill Wallace. became the first commentator on the UFC. >> is that right. >> which is ironic the first commentator on. The UFC is Bill Superfoot Wallace. >> I'll be ding. >> Which is crazy because like this is no. rules, Bill. This is like this is rules. are completely out the window. >> That's right. That's right. >> It's a It's very unfortunate because I.

think um the development of kickboxing. in this country has been stagnated, you. know, and it had a [clears throat] it. had a shot for a while with Glory. Glory. was doing really well in America. They. had Last Man Standing in LA. Remember. that? >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Oh, a crazy event. amazing event, but. for whatever reason, it just didn't take. hold. It was so exciting, but it just. never they had it I believe they had it. on Spike TV for a while. It just for. whatever reason, it wasn't promoted. correctly or it just didn't catch with.

the American public and I genuinely. don't understand it. >> Couldn't get the sponsorship either, Joe. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> but it's with the views come the. sponsors, >> right? And it's really just about. presenting a package together and making. it exciting for people. See, the thing. is with the UFC in America, the UFC is. so popular that if the UFC is coming to. town, everybody's going to go see the. UFC. Every time the UFC is at Philly or. Houston, it's like, let's go. And you. get tens of thousands of people want to. come out to see the UFC. But with.

kickboxing, you got to sell it on these. people. You got to sell it to them. And. it it hasn't been sold properly yet. But. the thing is, the product is there. There's great strikers out there. Like. for Jamie, pull up a clip of Yuki Yoza. This cat freaks me out because like his. combinations, man. He's so lethal. And. it just You see guys who just don't know. what to do with the fact that he's. taking away their legs like right away.

He does this weird thing too where he. like hooks their legs too. >> Mhm. and throws great boxing combinations, too. But it's like everything is just. constantly chopping at the inside of the. legs. >> He throws high kicks and everything. It's just And he's just brutalizing. these dudes. >> Mhm. >> And it's constant. No matter what he's. doing, he's chopping your legs, taking. your legs away, going inside, going. outside. The kid's very good. And you know that.

Kilkushin background, you know, you guys. know as well as anybody. It's such a. brutal style and they have to learn. boxing afterwards because the kilushin. competition is all punches to the chest. only. But look, if you can learn how to. kick, you can learn how to punch. It's. just a matter of putting the time in. And this dude is putting the time in. He. does this sneaky thing, too, where he he. throws a low kick and then he hooks. their calves and it works even on the. ties. I mean, just when you see a Thai getting.

his legs destroyed by a Japanese, you. realize, wow, this sport has really. changed. >> That's without a doubt. sport. It's It's. this one of the cool things about combat. sports is that you see a new person rise. doing something different and when they. do, everybody else has to sort of catch. up and then the the techniques evolve. and you see everybody rise to the level. of whatever this person's at and. recognize that there's new techniques. that people are using because, you know,

martial arts has evolved more since 1993. to 2026 than it did in the last 10,000. years. And it's really because of. exposure and because people like you. guys went out there in the early early. days and laid it all out on the line to. find out because when I started doing. martial arts was 82. 81 or 82 and back then no matter what. you 81 no matter what you did you. thought your style was the best and no. one really knew you know if you did.

karate you thought karate was the best. if you did taekwondo that was the best. and there was no competition. ition. where everybody went together that we. knew of other than we heard about your. fights that you guys had in Hawaii. Everybody heard about that was like. legendary. Like Benny and Blinky went on. Hawaii and they fought everybody. No. rules. Like no rules. Who won? But we. figured, oh, the strikers won. Striking. is the way to go. It has to be like the. best strikers won. But then you watch. the UFC like, "Oh geez, what are they. doing?" Like what is this Brazilian cat. who's strangling everybody with a ghee.

on? This is nuts. And it changed martial. arts again. >> Mhm. But, you know, everybody's looking. for the next uh biggest thing and so. far, you know, I mean, where do you go. from there? From UFC where you can. throw, you ground in pound and so forth. When you do technique. standing, everybody sees it, but when it. goes to the ground, everybody's looking. at the monitor because they can't see. nothing, >> right? And so a lot of people were.

thinking it's boring, but they didn't. realize there was a skill on the ground, but nobody seen it and it looked boring. But when you got up, so they were paying. some of the fighters to stop the. opponent standing. >> Yeah. >> Instead of going to the ground. >> Well, there's a lot of promoters that. definitely encouraged fighters to not go. to the ground. >> Yeah. >> And discouraged them when they did go to. the ground cuz they knew they could take. a guy down and just hold him down and. beat him up a little bit and win. And. the promoters is like, "We're not. interested in you." Which I think is not.

fair because it's all about fighting. And if a guy can hold you down, you have. to figure out how to get up. And if. otherwise, we're pretending. We're. pretending these techniques work. Because if a guy is like a world class. wrestler, some division one. all-American, he takes you down, holds. you down. You got to figure out how to. handle that. Otherwise, we're lying. Because the sport is about combat. It's. about fighting. It's the sport of. fighting. fighting is a man that can. hold you down. If he could hold you down.

and beat you up, why is the referee. standing you up? Why is the referee. giving you an opportunity to fight back? You have to figure out how to get up. You have to figure out either how to. submit him off your back, sweep him, or. stand up. Those are the options. A. referee standing you up because the. crowd's booing. That's crazy. >> Yeah. >> You know, that's really true, though. It's uh I I think that the crowd, you. know, they're they want to see action. and they can't see it on the ground, but.

they don't realize there's a lot of. action going on the ground, >> but they don't see that. >> They want to see, you know, it's almost. like everybody at a car race. They want. to see the racing, but they they want to. see a car crash, >> you know, and I I don't understand it, but they want to see the car crash. >> They want to see something happen. They. want to they want to get excited. That's. casuals, you know. You the casuals are. the ones that boo when the fight goes to. the ground. You can't change the rules. for the casuals. True, >> you know, but there's that's the problem.

when business gets involved in sport. Yes. >> You know, you start altering the rules. to make it more businessfriendly, which. I just don't I don't agree with. I just. don't think that's the way to do it. >> Yeah. >> Well, when you you're talking about. warriors, you you know, you you're. talking about training samuris. >> Yes. They're trained, hey, to actually. get in there and do their job and back. away. >> Yeah. >> But again, you know, right now the promoters, >> a lot of the promoters are looking at. how can I fill my seats.

>> Yes. How, you know, they don't they. don't care about the fighting. They care. about how can I bring Okay, he's. popular. He'll bring more people in the. seats. >> Yes. >> And that's all they're looking at. Well, it was my job in the early days of the. UFC when it first got on television to. explain to people what's going on when. it hits the ground. So, it was my job, you know, back in I started working for. the UFC in 2001. Well, I started in 97, then I started again in 2001. And very. few people other than martial artists. understood jiu-jitsu.

>> You know, I had been training at Carlson. Gracies and then by the time 98 came. around, I was training at John Shak. Machado. So, I was training every day. So, I I knew jiu-jitsu and I and so I. had to explain it like I was sitting. next to my girlfriend like, "Okay, what. he's gonna do now, he's gonna throw his. right leg over the side of his neck and. he's going to trap that arm. Okay, now. he's [ __ ] Now he's in trouble. Now. he's going to hook that leg under his. ankle. HE'S GOT THE TRIANGLE. HE GOT THE. TRIANGLE." AND I I HAD TO get people. excited about it. Like I was excited. about it, but also kind of talk them.

through it because they didn't know what. was happening. >> You had to explain like why are his legs. wrapped around that guy's neck? This. looks gay. like what the hell is going. on, you know, like what is this? And you. realize, no, he's cutting off the blood. to his brain with his legs. And they're. like, whoa, that's nuts. You're like, right, >> that's what Mel Gibson did to Gary Buucy. and Lethal Weapon. They're like, that's. crazy. It works. Like, yeah, that's a. real technique he learned from Hory and. Gracie. [snorts]. >> And so the early days was a lot of it. for me was about kind of explaining to.

me what to to people that are at home. what was happening and talking them. through it. Like that was the main part. of my job once the fight got to the. ground. Now everybody understands. Now. everybody knows what a choke hold is. Everybody knows what a armbar is. Everybody knows. So now it's just about. explaining whether or not he's in danger. or he's free, where the elbow is, where. the knee is. And it's just kind of. letting people know like whether or not. he's okay or not. But they know what's. going on. Now. >> even though they know what's going on.

the ground, they still want to see him. get up. You hear the crowd. >> get up. You know this. >> There's nothing like a knockout. And. there's nothing like a headkick. knockout. [laughter] Headkick knockout. is the ultimate. When someone lands a. headkick knockout like like Leon Edwards. versus Camaro Usman, he's losing the. fight. Fifth round. Boom. Head kick. You. see Camaro go down like the crowd. Salt. Lake City goes nuts. That is the the. ultimate expression of martial arts is. the kick, right? And a head kick that. scores a knockout. Like that's a Bruce.

Lee movie, you know? That's true. That's. that's that's what everybody wants to. see. They want to see it in real life. against a trained skilled opponent. >> I get that. >> That's that's the car crash. >> Yeah. That's the car It's the skillful. car crash. >> That but Exactly. >> Yeah. >> All of it is skillful, but more the the. more they know about it, the more they. understand the skill it takes to get. there. >> So, you shed the light on it. >> Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? Once people, like you said, understood the damage. that's going on and and and the need for.

to know the technique and that art form. makes you the winner. At the end of the. day, who's getting their hand raised, >> right? >> You know what I'm saying, right? And. then and then you got those that can do. both. >> They'll dazzle you with a with a. spinning back kick to the chin or. they'll take you and put you in a rear. naked choke. You know what I mean? So, that's the other other part other part. of the game. But you know when you start. talking about back in the era that you. understand and we understand it was the. Buddh.

that was the transition was the spirit. of it was it was it was the yesi you. know I mean it was that tradition that. really brought more mystique to the. martial arts more tradition in a way. that people honored you know what I mean. so it was kind of like you start seeing. the different transitions that came see. what I'm saying and you know it's it's. just like you hear people It's like uh. guy's out. He hits the ground. Boom. The. referee don't get there in time, but he. takes another whack or two, you know.

what I mean? So then that that's the. part at least for I'm like, "Wow, man. That's you want to make sure he don't. get up." But at the end of the day, those couple of extra shots. >> can can can create the damage. More. damage more damage. You see what I'm. saying, Joe? So So at the end of the. day, >> I mean, hey, it's it's vicious. It's. it's you got to be conditioned. I mean. you got to put in the work without a. doubt. You know what I mean? Because uh. exhaustion has made cowards of many. >> Yes. >> You know so yeah I mean so that that. whole bud heart that the tradition that.

atmosphere that spirit little by little. started dissipating. >> and then and then the the new era starts. coming in you know. >> Yeah. I believe the the the injuries. that in you know m the ground and pound. or whatever but the injury even standing. up go you know getting knocked out. standing and hitting the mat. >> Uh you know a lot you know there a lot. of promoters are saying you know we want. to see that but again the insurance.

polic I mean to get the insurance to. cover a lot of these fighters. >> is brutal. Yeah, but you have to be. small shows, right? That's it. It's. brutal and you have. >> it's a lot of grounding, a lot of. >> uh jarring of the of the mind and the. body. Um eventually it's going to give. out, you know, and so some of them don't. last two, three years and they're great. at what they do, but you know, by the. time they finish, it's hard for them to.

make a living, >> right? >> Especially if they're married. uh and so forth. I mean, you got to. continue on life. So, they try to make. it safe enough, but at the same time, when it comes down to the art of war, it's mental warfare, it's physical. warfare, it's even spiritual warfare, the energies that are coming at you. So, uh, educating the the public to what it. really takes and what it is that we're. doing in the ring, in the cage, what is.

exactly? Okay. It's entertainment, but. there's a skill. There's a skill that. we're using to be able to go in there. and stop an opponent without getting. hit. >> Yeah. It it really is a test of your. spirit because it's a test of your. spirit just to be able to discipline. yourself, to get in condition and train. properly. >> It's a test of your spirit to be able to. fight at the level of your actual. abilities under pressure. And what I the. way I describe martial arts competition, I say it's highlevel problem solving.

with dire physical consequences. >> Very well put. >> That's what it is. It's just like that's. what you're you're going against a. skilled guy who's trying to do something. to you and he's moving and you're trying. to do something to him and any mistake. boom. >> and then the referee's got a light in. your face and next thing you know you're. like oh my god you don't know what. happened. >> I mean you have two type of fighters. You have a checker player who take two. hits to give one that don't care. And. then you have a chess player that don't. like to take any and give the four,

five, and six. They're doing. combinations. Exactly. They're the ones. that doing combinations. >> Well, that's why it's important where. you train, you know, and uh the gym that. you guys that set up, the Jet Center, was legendary for developing champions. and legendary for teaching proper. technique and showing you the. consequence of the moves and also. teaching people that you don't have to. spar to try to kill each other all the. time. You know, you you could spar like. some of the best sparring I ever got was. at the Jet Center because the place when. I this is after I've been done fighting.

When I lived in Boston when we trained, it was war. Every time you sparred, you. were just fighting. There was no one. pulled any punches. No one pulled any. kicks. Everybody was blasting everybody. full bl. It was terrifying. And you saw. a lot of guys get knocked out in the gym. and then they'd be back a couple days. later. And that's crazy. That's crazy. We know that now. Back then we didn't. even think about it. Everybody just came. back. You just came back. You started. training again. You had a headache and. you just dealt with it. >> Nobody Nobody actually understood a.

concussion, >> right? >> Hey, all right. Shake it off. You know, uh, it'll be okay. You know, sit down. for a while, have some water. Okay, back. in. >> Right. >> And so, you went back in with a. concussion, not not even knowing that. you had a concussion, right? >> Other than I had a headache or I was a. little dizzy, but I'm okay again. Let me. get back in. because hey, you didn't. want to feel like, hey, I can't hang. like a [ __ ] Yeah, >> that's right. I can't hang. And so you. get back in there with this. And so. that's what's going on with a lot of. these fighters.

They, you know, before they go, I mean, they're training for their fight and. they get a concussion and then next week. they're going into the their fight with. a concussion, not even knowing they had. a concussion. >> Happens all the time. Yeah, I know one. guy who got knocked out twice in camp. and then like one of them was less than. two weeks before his fight and then he. got touched on the chin in his fight. just went out cold because he was. already [ __ ] up. That's right. He came. into the fight like severely. compromised. It's like going into battle. with a hole in your armor.

>> He was already messed up. And you know, there's like there's a time and place. for hard sparring because I think you. have to have some hard sparring to. sparring to understand that, hey, you. can't just block something like that. You're going to get your arm [ __ ] up. You can't just have your You're going to. have to deal with the fact that hard. shots are coming your way. So, sometimes. you're going to have to spar hard. But. technique sparring is so important, too. One of the reasons why the Ties are so. successful is they play spar. Like, they. fight every week. So there's no reason.

to get banged up. >> So when you watch Thai fighters when. they spar over there, they're like, "Oh, they touch each other. They just touch. each other. They're not trying to hurt. each other cuz like. >> once a week they have to go fight hard. So they don't fight hard when they're. training. It's like their fighting is. like their one hard sparring day.". >> Yes. >> Cuz they're some of them literally are. fighting once a week. You get these guys. that are 22 years old, they have 200. fights. Yeah. Which is crazy. >> Crazy.

But you know again if you're fighting. a for lifestyle as eating. >> yes. >> for your family so forth. >> when you go in there. >> they're fighting. >> right. >> it it's there's no uh sparring session. it's it's a fight and that's how they. bring home food to their families and so. when they go out there I mean they're. [snorts] they're fighting at five years. old they're you know they're already. trained three years old they're already. training. Y, >> you know, by the time they're 10 years.

old, they have so much experience of the. fight. >> Mhm. >> And and some of them are are done by the. time they're 22, 24, you know. >> Well, they already had 300 fights, by. the way, which is crazy. It is crazy. I. didn't. >> Yeah. And a lot of it over there is. motivated by gambling. >> That's right. >> So, when people watch tie fights, they. go, "Why they take the first round so. light?" Well, it's because that's when. everybody gamles. >> and they can switch rounds. >> Yeah. They switch opponents.

>> Oh, do they sometimes? >> That's what I understood. >> They switch opponents in between rounds. >> Opponents. My god. Who they're betting. on? >> Oh, right, right, right. Switch. opponents while Yeah. that they're going. to bet on. Yeah, they do that all the. time. I mean, there's so much gambling. going on. When you go to a Muay Thai. fight in Thailand, in the beginning of. the fight, you see everybody waving. money around and pointing to people and. everybody's like setting bats. So the. first round those fighters are just kind. of like setting the pace and just. experiencing each other's timing. And.

then the second round comes in, all the. bets are in. They start ramping it up. and then they start really fighting. which is. >> alien to a lot of foreigners. They go. over there and then they try to go wild. in the first round like. you got to let the bets get in and. they're like what? What are you talking. about? Like no no it's an agreement, a. silent agreement. when you go out there. that for that first round, for that. first round, you're just feeling each. other out. That guy's not going to try. to knock you out. He's just trying to. feel you out. He's going to try to land. some shots, couple hard leg kicks, maybe.

a teepee, but really he's just waiting. for that second round to open up. >> Exactly. And that's again, it's it's a. way of life to them. And you know, a lot. of a lot of them their parents are. selling their kids when they're very. young because they can't afford and. they're they're in. >> and the kids take on the name of the gym. >> and that's all they're in that they're. upstairs. They walk and talk, sleep, dream it in that gym. They don't go. outside. >> Yeah. >> Every day that's all they do. They're. training for fighting.

and uh I mean I've been to a couple of. them and that's it. They don't see. nothing else. They just train and go. upstairs. They do it and and the next. day they do the repeating and then they. go to the fights. It is crazy because. that the money from the gambling is. [snorts] what led the sport to be so. huge and the sport becoming so huge over. there is what led them to be so good and. that all that money and gambling led it. to be one of the most fierce fighting. styles on earth because while the rest.

of the world hadn't figured out the. knees and the elbows and the clinch and. the leg kicks the ties had been doing it. forever. They had already been doing it. for a long time. It took a long time for. the rest of the world to catch up to. what Thailand had figured out just from. allowing people to fight for money. >> I mean, you're talking about in 75. just understanding the word Muay Thai, >> right? [laughter]. >> Not knowing. >> thinking it was a guy. >> Yeah. Said, "What the heck is that?" You.

know, >> that is such a crazy story. >> Yeah. But. >> and then and then the the of course the. leg checks counters and you start we. started getting the idea. Okay. Okay. this is how you fight them. And then you. have other styles for for American bred. fighters that that didn't didn't have. part of that game in their repertoire of. Arsenal. You know what I'm saying? >> Right. Right. >> So So and I think that's that's what the. other thing that the PK did. It didn't. give anybody from from the PK a chance. to learn,

>> you know, internationally what was going. on in the in the world. Not to put them. down because you know what? That was all. part of us moving forward, you know, in. back in the day learning. But, you know, when you when you come up through. Shakan, you're going to know how to. sweep and you're going to know how to. front kick. You know what I mean? And. so, that that was on the traditional. side of the art. >> But yeah, >> it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate. because I, you know, even Dana White. when I talked to him about I was like, "Ah, people don't care about. kickboxing." I'm like, "It's just.

because it was sold badly in the 80s. That's really all it is. Like if it was. around today, I genuinely believe it. would like if kickboxing had gotten the. same sort of promotional push that the. UFC got like way back in 2001, I think. it would be just as big as boxing, just. as big as MMA. I think it would be huge. right now. >> I'm going to agree with you because. there are a lot of excellent standup. fighters that are really colorful.

>> Absolutely. >> And can you and use all their weapons. They can use elbows, knees, feet, jumping. I mean things that no everybody. afraid. I don't do that. >> They didn't want me to throw spinning. back kicks. >> It doesn't work. I said, "Really?". [laughter]. And I've been showing them for every. time they said, they I I made them eat. the words because again, [snorts] the. art if you do it right, >> it looks fancy.

>> It doesn't work if you're not good at. it. >> No. Yeah, like everything doesn't work. if you're not good at it. You try to. punch Floyd Mayweather, you're not going. to hit him. It doesn't mean punches. don't work. >> It just means you're not good enough at. it. That's [laughter]. You know what I mean? It's like. >> it's like it's interesting that people. don't see that. Even coaches don't see. that sometimes. >> You know, Terrence Crawford learned how. to switch hit, you know, cuz Terence. Crawford is one one of the best switch. dance fighters ever since Marvin. Haggler. And the one of the reasons why.

he did it is because his coach told him. he can't do that. His coach is like, "Don't do that. Stay orthodox. Stop. messing around." He's like, "What?" He's. like, "I can fight this way, too." He's. like, "No, no, no, you can't." He's. like, "Oh, okay. I'll show you." And he. would go out and start fight southpaw. And then like start [ __ ] people up. and switch hands on them and they're. like, "Oh, no." Because it's an amazing. skill to have, but it's only amazing if. you develop your southpaw style as good. as your orthodox style. It doesn't mean. that you can't do it. It means it has to. be at that leg. If you want to land a.

spinning back kick, it doesn't mean you. can't land a spinning back kick. It just. mean your spinning back kick is not good. enough to land. That's right. >> But Benny Aritz can land that spinning. back kick. That's right. >> I mean, I'm I'm softball. I'm a lefty. >> But I fought left forward because my. brother said, "Don't let them know. you're lefty.". >> So, he trained all of us. Even my sister. was lefty and we all trained left. forward. But when we struck, you. couldn't tell that we're a softball. So,

we started left-handed and working this. and but that was his logic. >> It was also the benefit of that is you. had a lethal left-hand kick. >> So, your left side kick, that front. kick, the side kick from the left side. and the front round kick from the left. side was fast as [ __ ]. >> because you're a naturally left-sided. fighter. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> That's right. You know, I I think that. it's just each decade as we go, you. know, as Blinky was talking about the. Brudo way, you know, there was a uh, you.

know, you had honor, there was an honor. system and all that and then the in the. 70s it started to change when full. contact came in. it started to change. and then kickboxing in 75 and on. people were you know uh we're we're not. martial artists we're we're kickboxers. then Muay Thai came oh we're kick we're. Muay Thai we're not kickboxers. uh and and every then we're UCI fighters.

we're not Muay Thai fighters I said you. know so every decade it changed but. again you needed to learn from ground. one and ground one was eternal the I am. concept of what do you tell yourself. with that you know and there was an. honor system going on and and there was. a code of honor between warriors. >> right. >> and that got lost. >> that's right. >> and there was power in that there was. power in that code of honor of strength. of knowing and they said well how do you.

know I said I just know but they said. how do you know I said I can't answer. you that other than the fact that I just. know. >> the tenants of a warrior code that you. would learn in traditional martial arts. were very important. That's why. everybody would bow at the beginning of. the class and everybody would keyi at. the same time. There was a there was. there was a rigid structure to it. >> and they would not let anyone trash. talk. They would not there was no. yelling and swearing. There was no none. of that. >> You don't even wipe the sweat off your. head, >> right? There [clears throat] was bowing.

and you know it was the beginning of the. fight. Everybody like bowed to each. other, went back to the corner. There. was no trash talk. There was no none of. that. It was your words will be spoken. with your weapons. >> That's it. >> I wanted to just add, you know, Benny. mentioned his sister. >> Well, I was we're w cousins. I was. married to Lily. Lily was my wife and. she passed away, but she was a. trailblazer for women. >> Absolutely. >> Boxing and kickboxing. Won titles in. both.

>> Fought Madison Square Garden 1978, you. know, also. and uh and just paying. homage, you know, because she she also. pioneered and was taking the forefront, you know, fighting at the Olympic, fighting at the forum, fought in Japan, traveled the world and fought and. represented well and trained hard, you. know what I'm saying? So, yeah, >> because actually at the fights, my. sister Lily, she actually fought first. Blinky will fight and then I would be. the last to fight. So all three of us.

when we traveled the world introducing. kickboxing, my sister Blinky and myself, we all fought at the same card. >> So So the night Bobby Chakon, if you. remember that name, >> Bobby. Sure. >> Okay. Bobby Chakon and Alexis Arguo. >> Oh yeah. >> We fought on their card. >> Both of us. First husband and wife to. fight on a boxing card like that. >> Wow. >> Under that right there. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And we were And and I I grew up with. Bobby. We grew up with Bobby. He came. out of the San Frernando Valley.

>> Little featherweight. >> Yeah. >> You know, he his whole style, man. >> Yeah. His whole style. >> I was his sparring partner for a while. and he started busting up my nose and. give me black eyes. I said one time I he. hit me with such a beautiful right hand. My leg came up automatically and he. started taking his glove off. I'm, you. know, I'm not sparring with you. No. I. said it was a reflex. I'm sorry, but I. didn't mean to bring the leg up. He said. he start taking his glove. I don't want. to spar with you no more. >> Did you hit him with the leg or just.

pick it up? >> No, I picked it up. He He hit me with a. nice right and automatically my right. leg came up to and by then he just he. told Joe Pon, I'm not spawning with him. no more. [laughter]. >> But the craziest thing about all this is. you guys were trailblazers and. [clears throat] there was very little. money in it. >> Oh yeah. Are you kidding me? We paid our. own way just to get there to fight. >> We paid him to fight. Really? >> No, we didn't fight. >> I mean, when I say I mean when I say we.

did, we paid for our own gas and our. just to go out there and actually fight. So, it was very little money. >> Yeah. There was no money and glory and. big houses and cars and the things that. fighters look forward today. >> Just heart just the love just the love. of the sport building it. Well, I don't. think you guys get enough credit and. it's one of the reasons why I really. wanted to have you on to talk about it. because I think. >> the sport needs to recognize the. pioneers that blaze the trail and you.

two are one of the most important. pioneers that blazed the trail in. martial arts in this country. >> And you know, you did it back when no. one knew what was going on. You got to. people need to understand 70 like when. did you guys first start fighting? When. when did you have your first kickboxing. competitions? Actually, it was in 73. It. was called Full Contact Karate. And we. already was fighting in ' 64 martial. arts and that was, you know, Bare. Knuckles hitting the ground. We were.

already sparring in then. And then. >> no one knew about it back then. We have. to realize like the Bruce Lee movies, when did they start coming out into. America? Like when was the early. >> So this is like almost 10 years before. that. >> Yeah. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. like real pioneers, man. No one. knew about it that you had heard about. judo. People knew about judo. Maybe some. people had heard about karate, but it. wasn't that popular in America. >> The first thing was actually popular was. the boxing, >> right? Of course.

>> And after the boxing, >> boxing has always been popular. >> That's right. And then other than all. the other sport, but boxing was when it. came to the art of war. And then it was. judo in the uh I started actually judo. in 60 and then 63 we started Kimple. karate. >> Is that where you met Gene Leel? >> Yes. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And I tell you what, talking about the. master of disaster. >> Oh yeah. He was awesome. >> Ponagi. >> Here we go. >> I got a chance to meet him because one. of the guys that I first trained.

jiu-jitsu under, I took private lessons. from this guy, Sylvio Pimento. >> Oh yes. >> You know Silio? >> I do. >> And he's a great guy. Shout out to. Silio. And uh he was a Gene Label. student. So he had a bunch of nasty. tricks that he had learned from Gene. Leel along with his jiu-jitsu stuff. So. he showed me a lot of like different. chokes and different things and. different variations that Jean had. developed, >> right? >> And I was like, man, and then I finally. got to meet Jean. What a character that. guy was. He is such a character. Jean. was one of those type of warriors sensei.

that say if you want to train with me. don't be a don't be afraid to get choked. out and before you can actually train. with him he choke you out he choke you. out and he and he would go and get. lipstick and put it around your eyes. [laughter]. and then when he wake you up you had all. this that was sinc. and I told Sinc Jin I said get it over. with she spoken me out. Get it over. Cuz. I knew that. I knew automatically like.

he was being easy with I said just do. it. Get over. Uh I said I'm not afraid. Just do it. And took me before I was. out. And I was back up again. I didn't. even know I was out. And uh he said, "You took it like a you know like a. charm, man. you know, what's true? I. said I said, you know, since if I'm not. afraid to die, what can you possibly do. to me? He said, really? And I said,

"Yeah." And then he grabbed my big toe. and put me in pain all the way up to. [laughter] my forehead, all the way back. down to the other big toe. And I said, "I'll never say that one again.". [laughter]. >> Your big toe? He had a big toe. submission. >> Yeah. He grabbed my big toe at right at. [laughter]. at the edge of it and he put his nail in. it and oh my god my eyes were bulging. >> Jean told me a story about when he was. old. He was I think he was in his 70s.

Some kids were breaking into his car and. he went outside. Did you hear this. story? >> Yes. >> There's two guys that were talking. They're like, "Get the [ __ ] out of here, old man." He's like, "Oh, really?". [laughter] He grabs this dude, [ __ ]. hip throws him out of the concrete. Boom. Grabs the other dude, chokes him. unconscious. He [ __ ] up two dudes when. he was 70 years old. Yeah. >> In front of his house. It's like. >> Yeah. >> Matter of fact, I did a couple of movies. with him and. >> Yeah. His mother was Eileen Eaton. >> She owned the Olympic Auditorium.

>> Oh, wow. I mean, the Olympic Auditorium. was the spot way back then, man. You had. some big time fights going on. >> Big time fights. >> Dean Leel and always. >> he was always humble. >> and you know what I mean? And and he. wore his humility very well. >> Yeah. He was very self-deprecating and. joking about himself and being silly, but man, you shook that guy's hand. You're like, "This is a [ __ ]. gorilla.". >> There's Jean. There he is. >> Such a great guy. >> Yes, he is actually. Um,

>> and he had one of the first mixed rules. fights when he fought Milo Savage. >> That's right. >> That even predated the karate fights or. the the mixed martial arts fights that. you guys had in Hawaii. That's right. He. fought Milo Savage who was a boxer and. he wore a ghee and uh the ghee was so. smart because Milo, you know, got. tangled up in the ghee and Jean grabbed. him and strangled him. >> You know, matter of fact, um it was. Muhammad Ali at the time. We went to. fight in Japan and he was the main. event. I was a semi-event.

>> Was that when he was fighting at Noki? >> Yeah. He stood on the ground. I was. So. I I went. >> and I I knocked out my opponent quickly. because I wanted to see the fight. >> So I stopped my opponent. >> Who did you fight? Do you remember? >> Uh I can't even think of his name. >> See if you can find the the undercard. Benny's fight on the undercard cuz that. fight with Ininoi was crazy. Like I. don't know how they talked Muhammad Ali. into fighting him. >> I you know it was a five rounder and it. was there was there was not supposed to.

be no decision. It was five rounder and. so forth and they both got paid great. money but I was telling in uh in the. dressing room I was telling Muhammad Ali. he's going to go for your legs and he. starts saying I'm so fast and I. [laughter] said I said I said Muhammad. he's going to go for your legs and I. said sure enough. >> after I fought I [snorts] I didn't even. want to go to the dressing room I just. wanted to stay there and when they came.

out and sure turn out the first thing. Tony did jumped went to the ground and. did a flying round kick to his thighs. >> Yeah. >> After the second round, Tony Noki went. out there and started going to his. ground and [laughter]. Muhammad Ali jumped on the on the corner. of the ring and was kicking him on the. ground as he was holding on to the ring. >> It was at the time it was funny if to. see it. But after the five round, uh, I.

tell you, Muhammad could I mean, they. had to carry him. He. >> Yeah, his legs were [ __ ] up. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah, they were really badly damaged. And for a guy who relies on his legs as. much as Ali did, that's a crazy fight to. take because if he got sidekick and. hyperextended his knee and it was never. the same. >> Yeah. >> It would compromise his movement. That. was float like a butterfly. That was a. big part of his style. >> That's true, Leo. And I just can't. imagine how anybody allowed him to take. that fight. >> Yeah.

>> Like if I was his manager, I'd be like, "There's no way you're taking this. fight. This guy's gonna ruin your legs.". >> You know, first of all, it was always. about whether it was about the money or. not, but it was about, you know, doing. something different, >> right? And Tony Noki being, you know, Muhammad Ali here in United States, you. know, Tony Noki was the man. >> He was the man in [clears throat] Japan. Pro wrestling. Yeah. >> And so that's why they went and it was.

packed the place. >> Did you you find that video? Is it. available online at all? Yeah, I. [clears throat] was looking for the I. mean I can only find stuff about the the. event was called the War of the Worlds. and they also showed it on Andre like on. TV on the screen. >> The Giant Andre the Giant. >> fought in New York. >> He fought Chuck Weapner. >> Wow. >> Wow. That's crazy. So that was in New York. >> That was a TV event. It says like 10. rounds direct from New York and this is. 15 rounds direct from Tokyo.

>> Oh. like pay-per-view or something. Oh wow. So they. >> Yeah, even a co- feature will appear. local to your area. >> Oh wow. >> But there's no video available. >> Oh, look. I'm still I was looking right. >> Um. >> their fight. I was looking for. >> That was a great fight though. >> Yeah, their fight was crazy. >> Their fight was crazy. When you look at. Eninoi kicking him, you're like, this is. just nuts. >> He jumped right to the ground and then. >> he was a big guy.

>> Oh yeah, >> was a big guy. >> But you know what? Uh, he wasn't full. Japanese. He was half Japanese, half. something else. But he was tall and he. had a square jaw that was. >> and I and his thighs. >> Yeah, [snorts] he was a big dude. >> Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. >> Is this the promotion for the fight, not. the actual fight itself? >> I don't know. >> Oh, there it goes. Oh, it's not showing. you the actual fight, but there was a. lot of that. >> Oh, yeah. >> I wonder what what they paid Ali to do. that. Yeah,

>> because like that seems like a crazy. decision to make. >> They took him right to the hospital. >> Look at that. Drops down, kicks the. legs. >> This is it. Ali was on the ropes lifting. his legs up. >> I'm in the corner. I wonder if you can. see me there, but yeah. >> But it's just getting your legs kicked. like that if you don't know what the. hell's going on. Like that's going to. destroy your legs. >> Oh yeah. They I mean right after that. went right to the hospital. They had a. drain. They had a drain. I mean his legs.

were full of fluid. They had to drain it. out. >> Oh man. Yeah. >> Yeah. I heard he got infected too. Didn't he get infected in the hospital. and he was there for quite a while? >> Yeah. >> That's terrible, man. That is so. terrible. >> Mhm. >> I just don't understand why anybody So. this is 1976. >> Yeah. That was the end card there. >> Was Ali the champ back then? >> I think so. I believe I I think so. >> Wow. Just nuts, man. Yep. He was WBC, WBA.

heavyweight boxing champion. >> Wow. >> I trained with Tony Noki. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What was that like? >> I'm tell you, the way they trained. there, they had these. I mean working I mean they didn't use. weights, but the strength his grip was. like a vice grip. And. >> they use those steel clubs. >> Yeah, the steel clubs. But he had all. that was just natural movement and so I. even tried so they had smaller ones for. me. >> but I trained with him uh for a week and.

I tell you what it was I every day I got. up. >> man because those those muscles I've. never used before. >> Right. >> Oh my god. >> Well, a lot of those guys learned. strength and conditioning from Carl. Gotch. >> Yes. >> And Carl Gotch was a legendary catch. wrestler. and Carl Gosh went over to. Japan and trained a lot of those guys. like um a lot of Sakuraba, a lot of. those guys who eventually became. big-time mixed martial arts fighters.

They started with catch wrestling and. Carl Gotch was one of the beginning guys. that came over to Japan and taught a lot. of those Japanese pro wrestlers a lot of. the different submission holds of catch. wrestling. >> And his big thing was conditioning. Carl. Gotch is legendary strength and. conditioning guy. like his routine was. absolutely brutal. In order to be able. to train with him, you had before you. could train with him, he had to know. that you were in physical condition. So, you had to go through this program to.

get yourself up to I forget what the. requirement was, but it was some insane. requirement of physical conditioning. before he would even teach you anything. Like, you had to be in shape. Like, you. got to have a gas tank, you got to be. strong, you got to be agile, and you got. to be able to move well. You know, my my. mother my mother wrestled at the Olympic. Auditorium. >> really. >> and with with actually uh Sensei Gene on. the same card and then my uh actually I. fought I fought there at the Olympic you.

know and and so but and then my sister. Lily she did roller derby at the. Olympics and she used to do. >> a rough lady. >> man that's crazy roller derby Tough. >> roller derby is tough, man. I've watched. some of that. >> I went to see an event of that live. It's like those girls get slammed. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, little quick vignette. [clears throat] Uh Lily was in a fight. on a Bobby Chakon card at the Olympic. Auditorium. So, they did an article on.

Bobby and uh and in the article they. mentioned Lily that she's had over 50. street fights. And when she read that, she was like, "Why would he say that?". Because he was pulling for her. You know. what I'm saying? >> Just crazy stuff like that. >> But uh yeah, she she went in there and. she was throwing them down and and then. out of the ring, you'd never guess it by. looking, >> right? Never guess it. >> Never guess it. >> Well, that was interesting because there. was no real female boxing presence in.

this country back then. Really didn't. exist. >> Like before Lily, like who? Like. >> there wasn't. >> There was no one. Lily is the one that. actually uh a bunch of girls got. together and Lily's the one that. actually started boxing because they. were saying. >> women can't box. they can't box and she was knocking. people out, >> right? >> She was knocking men out. >> at the gyms and that's when they. decided, well, let's see what's going to. happen. Sure enough, she went out there.

and she was the first woman to have a. boxing title, a martial art title, and a. kickboxing title. That's amazing. >> She was the first woman. >> That's amazing. And then there was Lucia. Riker in the 90s. Fantastic. She. couldn't get any fights. Women didn't. want to fight her. She was knocking. people out dead. And she was a. kickboxing champion as well. >> That's right. >> Started out Dutch kickboxing champion. and then went into boxing and could. never get that fight with Christy. Martin. Christy Martin was the big name.

Yes. Right. >> And she could never get a fight with. her. >> Yeah. Y. >> it's like Christy Martin was the first. one in America that really broke through. and became a famous female boxer. >> Yeah. >> But before her and then there was of. course Leila Ali and there's been a few. other ones. Chloresa Shields right now. who's the greatest women of all time and. it's like there's you know it's those. people they owe it to Lily in a lot of. ways. And just like martial arts. fighters owe it to you guys. If someone. didn't step in in the very early days.

and blaze that trail, no one's gonna. find out what's on the other side of the. woods. [laughter]. >> Hey Joe, but after you saying that, you. know, Sensei Ben's going to be inducted. uh the Saturday this coming Saturday. >> Really? >> At the uh at the uh martial arts museum. Uh so it's going to be it's going to. become he's going to be inducted to the. martial arts museum. >> That's awesome. That's awesome. Actually, we have the first three-finger. glove. This was in 73. The first.

three-finger glove. >> of striking and grabbing. >> Yeah. >> So, there's a lot of stuff that. >> like in Game of Death, those Bruce Lee. gloves. Yeah. That that needs to be. redone. You know, one of the big. problems with MMA today is eye pokes. It's a giant problem. And I think it. could be at least 80% solved by covering. up the fingertips. We don't need the. fingertips for grappling. You never. grapple like this. You never interlace. your fingers. >> That's right. >> So, if you could just cover it up like. an old school Everlast bag glove. Just. do that because you could still grapple.

No problem. It's like if you've got. padding over the knuckles, just extend. the leather over the tips of the. fingers. Make it like a mitten. Put it. under the hand like this. So, your hand. will slide into it the same way. Your. thumbs will still be free. So, you still. have, unfortunately, you'll still have. some pokes from the thumbs, but way less. when you don't have eight other things. to poke with. >> That's right. >> I I think that can be done. And I don't. think that takes away from the MMA sport. at all. >> No, because again, you know, a lot of. them, some they're striking and they're. striking with their fingers open.

>> Yeah. >> And I mean, some of them, I mean, they're they're I had this once guy that. had his finger stuck so deep that they. they actually had and. >> I mean, that's how deep his finger when. he jabbed with his finger open. >> Well, that happened recently with Tom. Aspenol. Yes. >> He with his heavyweight title. He was. fighting Siriel Gan and Siriel Gan poked. him in the eye a couple times, but one. time with both finger in both eyes he. poked him and his right eyes [ __ ] up. He's already had one surgery. He's going.

to have a sex second surgery soon. apparently. >> How how [snorts] many detached retinas, you know. >> Yeah. [clears throat]. >> Over the course of time. >> Oh, a countless number. I mean, you're. going to have some detached retinas from. fighting period. There's no way to avoid. it. You're getting punched and kicked. and elbowed in the eye. It's going to. happen. in the MMA. >> Yes, but it's going to be less of it. I. mean, look, Sugar Ray Leonard had a. detached retina, and that was just from. boxing gloves. You're going to have some. detached retinas, but I think you'd have. a lot less eye injuries if you covered.

those damn fingertips. And it's it's. just we've gotten used to these MMA. gloves that they have today. It doesn't. mean that that's the only way to do it. >> They need to figure out another way. >> Got to take care of the fighters. >> 100%. and and also make the sport better. because if fights don't get stopped from. eye pokes, it's more exciting. It's. better. You don't want a fight stopped. from an eye poke. So, the fights will go. on. It'll be better fights. It's a. better product. >> The same thing back then. They were. fighting with 8 oz gloves, but there. were horsehair in it.

>> And a lot of them were putting their. glove in the spit bucket. making the. horse hair wet so it get real solid and. it's not too. >> Guys would cut a hole in it and take. their squeezy bottle, their water. bottle, take that little the the straw. part and stick it in there and squirt. water into the horseair and pat it down. >> That's right. >> You know, >> that's what we thought. That's what we. started to do. >> We remember Margarito, he got caught. >> Yeah. He got caught using plaster of. Paris in inside of his or whatever it. was. Something that when it got wet.

would harden up like a rock inside of. his his hand wraps. >> like hitting them hitting them with a. brick. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's why that's why the ref I mean. they would come and check your wraps. They would mark it to make sure before. the glove go on. >> Mhm. >> Cuz they were doing a lot of crazy. things. A. >> lot of dirty [ __ ]. >> Oh yeah. Well, Margarito got away with. it long after people had already been. checking things, too, which is really. crazy. >> Yeah. >> But, [sighs and gasps] you know, you're. always going to have cheaters. >> That's just how the sport is. >> I mean, you know, it's again, when you.

call it a sport, there's got to be there's got to be the. bush way of honor system and. >> yes, >> respect and so forth when you're talking. about a sport, >> right? But when it becomes away from a. sport, then it becomes a money thing. >> You get away from that brush way of. really a code of honor between warriors, >> right? >> You know, back then even they're. samuris, they're s to the but there's a.

code of honor and they knew what they. were there for just like you know what. you're going in there for and but now. there's rules and either you go by the. rules or don't do it. >> Yeah. I mean, I think uh if people had a. martial arts code of honor, it would be. just as exciting and maybe more. interesting. >> because in agreement. >> and you would also develop a lot better. human beings. >> Yes. >> Because instead of a bunch of kids. imitating people talking trash, what you. would have is a bunch of kids that.

imitate very respectful martial arts. people. >> Very respectful true martial artists. >> Very well put. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> It's there for selfdefense. Mhm. >> It's not to to be, you know, aggressive. >> and self-improvement, >> you know, that's the other thing. It's. like my my instructor had a saying that. martial arts was a vehicle for. developing your human potential. >> And I never forgot that. I was like, if. you could get great at martial arts, you. could get great in anything at anything.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really just a matter of. like taking that knowledge that you. learned about yourself and going through. the fire and learning how to be a great. martial artist and you could apply that. to anything. >> It's supposed to be a way of life. >> Yeah. >> It's supposed to teach you, you know, about honor and dignity and respect and. so forth. That's basically what it was. all about. >> Yeah. That's what it's supposed to be. about. >> Yeah. And even though it's about. defending, self-defense is defending. instead of, you know, being a striker is.

learning how to defend it, slipping and. moving and right. >> defending. But it it got turned around. and it became striking, you know, instead of learning how to I because I. would put my money on a good defensive. fighter than a striker because it's easy. to go out there and strike. But if you. don't know how to defend striking back. at you, >> right? Well, one of the most humiliating. things for a fighter is they think. they're a good striker and then they get. in there with someone who has impeccable.

defense and they can't hit him at all. and then they get confused. They get. countered. >> Yeah. They get countered. They get. confused. And you know, it's also what. caliber of fighter are you training. with, which is probably one of the most. important things for young fighters to. understand. You will imitate the. atmosphere of your gym. Period. And the. level that is the top guy at your gym, that is the level that everybody aspires. to. If you are training with a bunch of. champions, you're training with a bunch. of highle guys, you will aspire to be at.

that high level. If you are the toughest. guy in your gym, if you're the best guy. in your gym and you you're not a world. champion, you're not the best in what. you're just pretty good. Like, you're. not going to grow in that gym. You got. to get out of that gym. You got to get. out of that gym. You got to go find. people that are going to test you and. put you in danger and put you in a. position where you're going to have to. learn and grow. And that's the only way. >> And and that was that was the advantage. of training at the Jet Center. We had. people coming from all over the world, all over the country. you had nothing.

but people that that you had to aspire. for. You had to reach for the stars, you. know what I mean? Make it happen. >> And with condition being the name of the. game, you know what I mean? So, you. know, and from time to time there was. wars in the gym, you know what I mean? But there's other times where there was, you know, you're going we're going to. learn today. Yes. You're not just going. to start swinging from left to right. >> Well, it was the mecca of kickboxing. And like I said, like when I was living. in Boston and when I was kickboxing in. Boston, people would talk about the Jet. Center with like hush tones like, "You.

got to get to the Jet Center because I. was telling people I was moving to LA.". They're like, "Oh, you got to move to. LA. You got to go to the Jet Center.". And I knew about it. I was like, "Oh, it's one like one of the first things I. did." Like one of the first things I. did. I showed up for work. I did all the. things that I had to do. I was working. on this TV show. Then I went to Van. Eyes. >> I was like, "I got to go sign up. >> Come on. [laughter]. That's beautiful. >> Hey, Joe, so you mentioned that and you. know cuz you could sling them pretty. good yourself. You know what I mean? >> Oh yeah. >> And you you leaned over and ripped the.

body shot to that one guy you were you. were sparring with. You went down on one. knee. >> and uh and uh if I'm not mistaken, you. mentioned, man, I thought, "Holy crap, I'm going to get shot in the parking. lot.". >> And and then he walks up to you and he. taps your glove and he says, "Good. shot.". >> Yeah. You see what I'm saying? >> I remember that. Yeah. was nervous. sparing those dudes. >> But that [laughter] but that was that. was part of why I had them there. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Because at the end. of the day, it's not about.

>> violence and and and and that was giving. them. >> that that lesson that they needed to. learn. >> Yes. >> You know what I'm saying? During that. time of their life. And now we've grown. it into something now where we've done. over 200 sporting events with rivals. >> Yeah. >> You know, tackle tackle football games. No. No. No. had ham balls, >> well, >> softball games. >> People need [clears throat] to learn. that the division that we have with each. other where we look at us versus them, it's mostly [ __ ] It's not real. It's like they're just human beings just.

like you're a human being. And it's way. better for them to be your friend than. for them to be your enemy. There's no. need to have enemies like that for no. reason whatsoever other than tribal gang. [ __ ] It's not real. It's like, and. the thing about martial arts is it. teaches you the real battle is inside. yourself. The real battle is learning. and growing. And unfortunately with. young men, like there's this desire to. show how hard you are and that you're. macho, but you don't have any skills. You don't you're not really macho. So. you have to like posture and be louder.

than everybody else. >> And martial arts teaches you like, man, your battle is in the gym tomorrow. Like. get back in there tomorrow and and get. better. and then learn why you got hit. and then get better and learn why you're. throwing your left hook wrong or why. you're throwing your round kick wrong. and train it and work on the bag and put. in your time and you're going to learn. and grow and then you're going to. realize like I've been fighting my own. self for this whole time. I've been. fighting nonsense and I've been making. enemies that don't exist. We had a guy.

that came into the gym, >> 6'3, [clears throat]. 230 lb Mexican American, which was a. rare commodity back in in 1980. And he had just done five years on a. manslaughter, and he wanted a box. So, I. started working with him. Not long. after, I get a phone call and it's a. parole officer, and he says, "Hey, I. hear you're you're dealing with. Alex." And I said, "Yeah, I'm dealing. with him and he's doing just great." I.

said, you know, I'm a private entity and. I'm gonna work with this guy. I don't. got to chase him. He's in the gym all. the time. And so I took him to the. diamond belt, he won it. Took. [clears throat] him to the Golden Glove, he won it. Took him to the state title, he won it. He earns the right to go to. the nationals in Bulmont, Texas. >> Is this Alex Garcia? >> Alex Garcia. >> So I I was his trainer manager at that. time. >> Oh wow. >> All all them years. Take him to the He. earns the right to go to the World Box. off. Wins the World Box off. goes to the. World Games, fights who tilo Stevenson.

>> Oh, >> 6'7 Cuban. There was a three-time. Olympic gold medalist. Alex fights him. for the gold on ABC World Sports. >> Wow. >> And he doesn't win. But he lost to Tio. Filo Stevenson, right, from Cuba and he. wins the silver medal and he's the first. of in in in the Hispanic community, Mexican America, and to win a medal or. to fight in even that category, that. weight division. I remember I was just. talking to my friend Joey Diaz uh who's.

Cuban and we were talking about TfL. Stevenson that that was the guy that. they were trying to get to fight. Muhammad Ali when he was in his prime. because they were like you know Muhammad. Ali might be the best in the world but. he might be the second best because this. is cat in Cuba that is a bad man and Tia. Stevenson was a bad man he was so good. but he was just locked into Cuba and. locked into that amateur program and we. never got to see him fight. professionally. >> and back then they wouldn't let them. fight pro. >> Nope. >> Fidel Castro would not allow that.

>> And didn't he didn't he come out with. Muhammad on the cover of Time magazine. >> like they were kind of teasing people. with that fight. >> perhaps. I mean there was a lot of talk. about it. I remember in the 70s and the. 80s there was a lot of talk about that. about him fighting you know and then him. you know him eventually defecting and. coming over to America but it never. happened. But but the thing with Alexie. that showed somebody that's gone away. and come back home can make it. If he. could win the silver medal for the. United States of America in the World.

Games when we had boycott at the. Olympics, [snorts]. that was just part of. the the proof. Mhm. >> And so now when you're getting guys into. union jobs, you're getting guys with. tattoo removal that's going on, you. know, you're doing uh advocacy in the. courtrooms and you're you're just being. able to roll out. There's there's. education going on and there's a. response to yellow tape, the CVI, the. the community violence intervention.

programs that are now nationwide. They. become a movement. >> And when you say tattoo move, you. talking about gang tattoos. >> Yeah. tattoos, but yeah, mostly, you. know, just things of people's past that. holds them back, >> right? Right. >> Yeah. So, now, you know, there's a. there's another thing that's. [clears throat] going on with tattoos, you know, where it's a no laser removal. There's a there's some new uh technology. and stuff that I'm talking to people. about that you don't have to go through. uh to getting laser and ow and ooh and.

you can hear that that laser going off. So, what's it about? It's about meeting. the needs of people. It's about touching. lives, you know what I mean? It's it's. about showing them another way and and. having the ability to open up a door. that they can go get through. >> a path. >> A path. Absolutely. >> That's the thing about a lot of people, they don't know how to make the first. step. They they've made some mistakes in. their life. Their life is kind of a. mess. They don't know the first step. The beautiful thing about a fighting. journey. >> in a gym is it allows you a martial arts.

dojo allows you a path. You go in there, you start. There's some rules. I'll see. you tomorrow. Like, okay, I'll see you. tomorrow. And then you're in there. tomorrow. And then you you start getting. a little better. And then you learn. growth and you understand like if I work. towards something, I can build towards. something. And now I'm seeing progress, you know, and now I've got a brown belt, you know, now I've got a black belt. Now. I'm a I could tell people I'm a black. belt. Like like I did something. I. [clears throat] accomplished something. And I think that's one of the great. things about belt systems in traditional. martial arts is it gives you a sense.

that you've got a there's a right of. passage like you've made you've gone. through this thing and now you've moved. to another level and now you you're. supposed to behave like you are at a. different level. Now you're a senior. student. Now you know now you're one of. the elite students in the gym. You're. held to a different standard. It's very. important for people. Well, you know, absolutely a [clears throat] lot of. times what happens is a lot of a lot of. them come in with a lot of emotions, anger, fear, frustration, and especially.

at the Jet with the Jets gym, we were. able to tap in and put fear to them in a. in a sparring way that it will bring up. all that emotion up and then we had a. chance to reprogram that. That was the. best part about the gym is to bring up. what everybody hides until you're. threatened. >> Right? >> And once you're threatened, I don't care. what you hide under your bed, in your. closet, will come up. And then you get a. chance. >> to reprogram the way you're perceiving.

it, the way you're looking at it, and. help them to uh heal. Not not uh pat it. or forget it or act like it doesn't. heal it so that it doesn't stop them on. their journey. And that's what the Jet. Center was all about is being able to. bring that up, mirror their truth, >> help them look at their really uh what. they're really all about and continue, let them go on their journey. And that's.

why the Jet Center was so successful. because we had a chance to really mirror. their truth and bring all that that they. hide and bring it forward and they felt. safe enough. They felt, you know, >> to actually go there. >> Yeah. And you get to see them go through. that and develop real confidence instead. of this bravado, this false confidence. You're trying to make people feel like. you're confident and scare them off. you. develop silent confidence where you. really know how to fight. >> True.

>> That's true. So that's that's what makes. the art, you know, so unique but so. needed. and in the art it gives you a foundation. to build on and in your life and no. matter what and we've had all walks of. life uh that come through the Jet Center. all walks I mean and the ones that I. mean we had so many different attorneys. coming in and we used to call them the.

fighting attorneys Man, there was six, seven of them, man. They would, you. know, in the gym, they were so humble to each other. They. love each other. They go outside all of. a sudden, they don't know, they don't. know each other. I was like, [laughter]. I said, "What's what's wrong with you? You just finished spotting with them, working with them." And they said, "He's. an attorney." I said, "And [laughter]. but it was uh it was it brought. character out of them. brought their. heart. >> and let them mirror the really truth on. their journey and what they were.

>> where they were going. And that's. >> also for an attorney to step into that. world and be around both these young. gang members that are learning a new. path and then professional fighters and. like you know you're in a a different. world of discipline and willpower and. focus that will help you in everything. you do. We'll help you as an attorney. We'll help you as a doctor. We'll help. you as in anything you do. >> True. >> And certainly help you as a human. Yes. As a human just get through life.

There's nothing that's going to be. harder in life than other than the loss. of a loved one. Nothing going to be. harder than your hardest training. session at a real fight gym. It's just. >> that is that makes the rest of the world. easy because your hardest thing you. volunteered to do and you look forward. to doing it again and you do it every. day. when you could do like I always. tell people martial artists are some of. the nicest [ __ ] people you'll ever. meet in your life. They're some of the. nicest people because they don't have. anything to prove. Like when I introduce.

my friends to like guys, I'm like what. do you like we was talking about George. St. Pierre yesterday. I was introducing. someone to George St. Pierre like what. do you think he does? He's like I don't. know. Seems like a nice guy. I'm like. that is one of the baddest [ __ ]. that ever walked the face of the earth. He's a two division UFC world champion. One of the greatest of all time. They're. like no way. I'm like, "Yeah, I mean. like he's like, "How you doing, my. friend?" Like super nice, super. friendly. Like, yeah, he's got nothing. to prove. There's nothing to prove. So, he can be a nice person. He can be a. nice person and not feel weak.

>> He can be himself. >> Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Joel. So, so you know, you made mention right now one of the. hardest things to do is lose someone. And so for me, I wanted to share a. little bit that in 2023, I got a phone call that that that was. something that I could never. anticipated. It was January of 2023, and. it was a a call that was made. One of my. sons called to tell me that he had. talked to a friend of ours that does a.

lot of work in uh with the prisons, has. a lot of entre. He's on big-time boards. and that he was at he was at one of the. prisons and that an inmate walked up to. him and asked him if he knew me. So he. said, you know, do you know Blinkcky? And he and he said, yeah. He says, why? And and the guy says, because I I'd like. to talk to him. And he said, well, why? He said, "Because I'm the guy that. murdered his son.". >> Oh. >> And and so my son's telling me that our. our friend wanted to know if I would.

consider talking to him on the phone. So I had just entered into a season of. fasting and praying. Me and my wife now. we're going to celebrate 10 years, Gloria, [clears throat] you know, >> and and uh and I said, "I don't know. I. was grappling, Joe. I was I was I was. grappling. And I was fighting with it. And then I heard a a gentle voice and it. was say yes. Say yes. So I called my son.

back and I said, "Tell him I said yes, but I don't want to talk to him on the. phone. I want to see him in person.". And so that's exactly what happened. on. January the 30th, we drove up to the. prison. and and uh we get there and first first. we stop and get something to eat and. then we get to the prison and the SEO is. right there waiting and when we get. there he's uh he says, "Yeah, well, come. on through." And so me and and and uh.

this guy went through and he uh he says, "Yeah, you know, we don't normally have. uh meetings on Monday, but everything's. fine. We're going to be okay." So they. walk us through. We walk through to get. out to the back door and there's the. yard. The yard, the barb wire, everything's right there. We we start. walking. We go into some a building to. the left. Now, I thought I was going to. be talking to somebody. uh behind glass, but it turns out that.

they're they're asking me, "What do I. think about this room?" And I and and. I'm like in my mind, why are they asking. me? What am I thinking about this room? You know what I mean? Because, you know, that's that's up to them. But I look. down the hallway and there's a door. I. said, "What's behind that door?" And the. CEO tells me, he says, "That's a that's. a chapel." I said, "Can I see it?" We. walk back down the hallway. He opens the. door and and and there's a podium right.

there and there's about 15 chairs. So I. said to him, "Can we use this room?" And. he said, "Yes." So, at that point in. time, I need to go to the restroom. So, we walk out of the building, he takes me. to the restroom. When we come back out, my friend, the one that was setting it. all up. He's not there, but there's an. inmate. I can hear him saying, "Hey, Blinky, thank you for the letter to the. parole board. I got a date, but I'm in.

another dimension, Joe. I mean, I'm like. somewhere else.". So, couple of minutes goes by and I hear. I hear my buddy and he says, "Hey, Blinky, this is David." And when I when. I pivoted out, he was right here in. front of me. This guy that had killed my. son. And the words that came out of his. mouth, Joe, I cannot even I didn't have. a second to to try to digest it. But he. says to me, "Can I get a hug?" And when. he said, "Can I get a hug?" I grabbed. him and I embraced him and I begin to.

weep. I begin to weep. I begin to gra I. begin to travail and he began to weep. and that was a Holy Ghost moment where. the spirit of God was moving. on that whole issue and we went from. there into that chapel and we spent a. little over two hours talking the the. the CEO that was there and my buddy they. were sitting in the corner of the room.

and as I'm talking to him and we're. going over cuz my wife before I left the. host she says remember he was just a. young guy you know what I mean he was. probably confused back then so now I'm. talking to him and now we're going over. different things that took place and I. hear that voice tell them talk to him. so I said okay I said to him can I have. the privilege of leading you to the Lord. and he said to me yes he says yes and.

tears start coming out of his eyes. I. stepped a few feet over. I put my hand. on his right shoulder, my over his. heart, and I let him. And he began with. a contrite heart, he began to weep and. cry. And I came to realize because it took me. a long time to unpack that. Once I got I. left there and I came home into the. chair where I always sit to read. and wow, it's like, what just happened?

What did I just do? what just took place. and at the end of the day Joe it was I. leave 99 to go get one. and that's what I grasp that that one. life that one person under the so that's. why I've always said since then that the. power of forgiveness is more powerful. than my left hook and I had a good one. Joe. >> yeah that [laughter] did. >> I just nice and short man [snorts] but.

but the power of forgiveness This Joe. reconciles. It gives you a chance man to rekindle. the fire. It gives you the opportunity. man to live life without carrying a. heavy yoke on your neck, >> right? >> That people carry. It's powerful. I. can't articulate to you in words what. forgiveness is. But forgiveness is. divine. The love that that's required, the. humility that's required to forgive. unconditionally.

And that's why I trust in Christ. >> That's a beautiful story. >> It really is. That's a beautiful. message. >> And it's incredibly powerful of you to. forgive that man and to be able to. recognize that, you know, he made a. horrible, horrible decision that. affected your life and everyone around. you. >> Yeah. >> But he's just a human being. >> Yeah. you know, and we're all capable of. doing something terrible if we're in the. wrong environment with the wrong people. around us, the wrong lifestyle, wrong. decisions, you know, but we're all just.

human beings. >> And that's why I'm still doing what I'm. doing. I had to I had to say farewell to. my brother Ben [laughter] cuz we owned. the Jet Center together. 5050, man. >> And and it was just that type of. calling, uh, Joe, that said, >> go. And so here I am now 36 years later. Hard uh you know it's still jumping. >> That's amazing. >> And and it's still working. >> Good. I I went there 32 years ago. That's when I first started.

>> That's when I made my way to LA. >> That's when I first came to your gym and. took your classes. Are you still Do you. still have a gym? >> You know what? Right now I'm just doing. a lot of traveling. I'm doing my. documentary right now and. >> working on the documentary and so forth. and and just doing a lot of traveling. >> I've seen a lot of videos online of you. teaching seminars and teaching people. You still doing a lot of that? >> A lot of it. >> Do you enjoy that still? >> You know what? I've always thought I was. a better teacher than a fighter. >> That's crazy. [laughter]. >> You're one of the greatest fighters of.

all time. >> The fighting I can do, but the teaching. I love. >> Really? I love being able to get. somebody and turn them inside out so. they may look at their truth and see. that we all have talent and we all have. a gift. It's just giving a chance to see. that. You know, I really take uh a lot of. pride in seeing somebody that I can see. that they they doubt themselves. They. hesitate about and to go out there and. and really look at themsel and start to.

love themsel. There's no better feeling. to see somebody come up from being very. mink and weak to something just so. strong and doing something great. >> for society and for. >> That's amazing. That's Do you ever get. any professional mixed martial arts. fighters that reach out to you for. training? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Who have you trained with? >> Well, you know what? I uh right now I uh. basically what I do is I don't talk.

about any of them. I just work with them. and everybody asked me, but I said, you. know what? Uh I don't care who you are. I care about what you would what you. would think that how I can help you with. if it's mental if it's physical is. spirit because when it comes down to it. 80% of it is mental. 20% of it is physical but 99.9% of that.

is spiritual which is internal this is. what I work with him on. And so some of. the fighters I I you know I said I. prefer not to know [snorts] you know. what uh who you are just other than what. you want from me. >> and from there I can work with you on. that and so a lot of people want me to. go and see their fights you know uh uh. while they're cage fighting MMA and. stuff and.

uh there was only one time I went I. leave. I went one time because in the. beginning there were great technicians. in that cage. Beautiful technicians and. it got lost. It got lost somewhere. around and then every once in a while. you'll find somebody that. stands out like a sore thumbs. It's just. beautiful technique and they you can see. they really love what they're doing. >> Well, the young guys coming up today are. some of the most technical I've ever. seen. Yeah. It's a it's an amazing time.

because what we're seeing now is these. kids that are in their 20s that you know. the UFC really became popular in 2005. from the Ultimate Fighter. >> So you're seeing kids that were really. young when that was happening and they. grew up watching Anderson Silva, Jon. Jones, Vtor Belelfford. They grew up. watching these elite fight Conor. McGregor and now they are the newest. version of that. And the thing about.

martial arts that's so different is we. really didn't have a chance to see mixed. martial arts on television at all until. 1993. And so you're seeing this inc. there's no sport other than mixed. martial arts where you look back at 1993. and look at it in 2026 and it's totally. unrecognizable. It's so much different. But MMA it is. And these kids are so. technical. It's like we were talking. about today. The kids of today, they can. do everything. They could submit you.

They can take you down. They can kickbox. with you. They could do it all. They. don't have a weak spot in their game. And those are the elite young fighters. of today. And we're seeing a lot of. those now. A lot of them. >> The only thing you can't coach is heart. >> Right. Right. You can't coach heart. I. mean, you could teach it. >> in a way they can learn it from the pain. of not having heart and the the shame of. not having heart and you decide I'm. never going to be that person again. Like some people say like heart is. either in you. You either have it or you. don't. But man, I don't believe that.

>> Yeah. >> I think it's something that can be grown. just like everything else, just like. technique, just like everything. >> Condition does a wonderful job, right? >> But that's that's the journey. >> Yes, the journey. >> The journey is finding that. >> that's the journey. You know, the good, bad, and ugly shows up that it may teach. you something about yourself. >> Yeah. >> And and that's the mirroring of your. truth. >> What is it like for you two men as. pioneers, like real true pioneers in the. earliest days of martial arts in this. country to see where it is today and to.

know that you started those first steps? you know, it's for me. um to start something but in a way of. the Bush way of the code of honor and. respect and so forth. This is what I. felt that we were doing building up a. way of life where warriors will fight. with dignity and honor and respect. And.

along the line. when when actually my last fight was in. '95 94 I got my last fight and then. [snorts] it started to change because uh. the graces came in in 90 and 95 it. started mixed martial arts all the way. up to 2000 and then cage fighting was. >> huge. >> man just everywhere but Um,

I was I wasn't really I was following. some of it, but I I didn't like some of. it. I didn't didn't leave a good taste. And because when I saw some of these. guys were on the ground just pounding. this guy in the ground, I thought, "Wow, was that me in the street once upon a. time when I was young?". Uh, and I said, so a lot of a lot of it.

that I didn't want to take their. livelihood from them because I didn't. want to hurt them to the point where. they couldn't make a living if they were. married, if they were s, you know. So, I. always had that in my in my mind, in my. heart that to me it was a sport. When. somebody hit the ground, I said, "Get. back up." I pinned a lot of people, but. to hit them on the ground, I just said, "Get back up. Let's. >> Yeah, but it's an important part of. fighting.".

>> That's right. >> Yeah. >> That's right. But again, you know, the. the fight game again, there's a. difference between the fight and the art. of sport because in the art of sport, I. mean, you do a lot of that on concrete. and wood, >> whole different ball game. >> on a mats because there's two different. flavors of understanding. one protecting in the street and hitting. that kind of ground and so forth because. a lot of times at the internationals it. was concrete that was in 64s 65 how we.

fought on concrete taking down sweeps. but letting him back up. there was a. code of honor even though we swept and. uh took him to the ground, you know, and. some will reverse punch to the ground. and then. let them back up. But again, uh I just. think that sometimes. when you're on the ground and there's. somebody's livelihood, you know, you're thrashing and the idea,

okay, I understand what it takes, you. know, to hold that hand up as a winner. and what it takes of the rules, but I've. always got uh turned around when I see. somebody jumping on somebody. Yeah, that's understandable considering in in. your day that wasn't that was frowned. upon. >> Yeah. >> But today it's one of the most important. parts of the sport. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But as for me, I'll tell you, you. know, you mentioned how it felt to be a.

pioneer, a true pioneer at in the front. end. >> I I feel privileged. to be a part of that, to be I mean, it. was such a robust time. It was it was so. exciting. It was rich. There was. richness in the air. We were thriving. We were pushing. You know, first it was. that the trip to Hawaii where where we. end up in a semic comedy thing where. you're if you don't knock him out, you're not going to win. Well, by the. way, when we got to the airport, Dana. Goodson was caddying there. He was.

taking the luggage and he seen us and. hey, you guys double team me. You know. what I'm saying? But but it was just the. atmosphere was rich. The It was. thriving. It was it was special. It was. a special time, you know what I mean? And and and so I didn't want to cheat. the game because I I knew for a fact. that condition was king, being in. tip-top shape. Cuz it's one thing being. in shape, but being in tip-top. condition.

Now, you almost could radar what. someone's going to throw. You could. catch it. You could see it. You could. feel it, you know. So, so being on the. front end, even though, you know, we got. limited recognition, it wasn't always about the recognition. It was about the art. It was about It. was about life. It was about how you. treat people. And And I'm grateful, Joe. I'm grateful because still today, it's. about people. It's about service. It's. about It's about being able to open a.

door, give an opportunity, and touch a. life. In the same way, you know, Benny's. talking about, you know, the emotion and. and and and and you know, what that. allows uh to happen to an an. individual's life. Well, we're. approaching it in a multi-pronged. approach. You see what I'm saying? Where. the the basic needs of opportunity that. a lot of people don't get a second look. It's just like next, next, next. You. take the time to talk to them. You know. what I mean? And and I want to say this.

I want to say this. You wear humility so. extremely well. It's really I mean I mean I'm just. saying Joe. You know what I mean? That. that's what that's what I sense. That's. what I discern. in my spirit. And I've been running the race a long. time, Joe. I've been running the race a. long time. And there's there's an. anointing that breaks the yoke of. bondage. There's an anointing and it.

flows, Joe. And I I if I left here. without saying that, I would I would be. so disappointed in myself. But anyways, >> well, my my humility is honest. I mean, I know who I am, and I'm just a person. like everybody else. >> And the the beautiful thing about. martial arts is it it teaches you that, >> you know, it teaches you who you really. are. Not not image and what you're. portraying. >> Yeah. >> What who what is your real spirit? Like.

what are you really capable of? what can. you really accomplish, you know, and who. are you? And you have to learn that. And. that's that's the beautiful thing about. hard training and and learning and and. competing is you you have to learn who. you are. >> Yeah. >> That's the journey. >> Yeah. It is it doesn't come without. loss. It doesn't come without, you know, you have to go through some [ __ ]. >> Yeah. The good the good, bad, and ugly. shows up. >> Yeah. All of it. It's it is a part of. who you are. Yeah. And when you guys are. seeing the the sport, the the crazy.

thing about your time was that there was. no other motivation other than the. journey because there was no money, there was no fame. I mean, you obviously. got a lot of notoriety and respect. amongst martial artists and amongst. people like me, but the general public, you know, if I say you don't know who. Blinky Rodriguez and Benny the Jed are, they're like, "What? Who's that?" And. martial artists know. People who watched. the movies know. People who saw Black. Belt magazine, they know. But you were. doing it in a pure sense. You know, it.

wasn't just a vehicle to become famous. It was because you were trying to figure. out who's the baddest man on earth. And. there's only one way to find out. >> True. >> Yeah. >> You know, truth speaks for itself. You. know, >> truth truth speaks for itself. >> Um, so do you have a desire at all to. have a gym now? Do you ever think about. like what it was like when you had the. Jet Center? >> You know, there's something that I've. been drawing in my mind just like when.

the Jet Center I was drawing on toilet. paper. >> in Japan. >> actually in Japan and I got to I had an. idea. >> and I started drawing on toilet paper. because I didn't have anything else to. So I started drawing the jet center and. I told Blinky, I said, "Blinkcky, this is the our n this is our gym. What. do you think?" And he looked at me and. he said, "I dream about that.".

>> I after I to showed him about toilet. paper, this is going to be our next gym. Hey, this is going to be the gym of uh. what we're going to do. And he had a. dream about it right before that. >> Really? >> The Kilo Plaza in Shinjuku. >> Yeah. I. >> came downstairs. He was already at there. to eat. And he says, "Blink, one day. we're going to we're not going to lease. or rent no more. We're going to own this. gym." And he pulls his paper out and. says, "This is" and he start pointing it. out. Jacuzzi, steam room, sauna, cold.

plunge. And he just start going through. it and I'm looking at him and I'm. smiling. Ben says, "Hey, you think I'm. crazy again?" I said, "Ben, I dreamt. that gym last night. I dream it, you. know.". >> Wow. >> And and and the proof is that that it. was what we said is when we walked into. that bowling alley at 14540 Frier. Street. >> Yeah. >> Right. We closed a two and a half day. escrow on that property with $4,000.

down. >> Wow. Wow. And it was that that we. started a month later with the. construction and building of it. >> You could feel it in the building, man. I [clears throat] I remember very. clearly the first time I walked in the. room, I was like, "Wow.". >> Yeah. >> I was like, "I'm really here.". >> It was crazy. And I didn't get too. nervous entering the fight gyms, but. that gym, I got nervous because it's. like the the legendary history of it. You guys really did something very, very. special. I was real sad when the roof.

got damaged and it went under. I was. like, man, this is the end of an era. >> But to end to answer your question, I've been doodling again. >> Oh, >> but I'm talking about a gym. There will be a safe haven where people. will come to learn their truth. learning. defense, self-defense, but learning. about themselves, mirroring their own. truth, that they will be able to feel. safe and to be able to release all that.

that people uh or they've been taught. this this emotions of anger, fear, and. frust. I didn't do it on point of toilet paper, but [laughter]. >> actual paper this time. >> Yeah, actual paper. >> Where are you gonna plan on doing that? >> Actually, that's the key. >> Location. That's the key because again,

this one will be different than. anybody's ever seen. And it will be a. place to come from all over the world to. look to mirror their truth. >> So, do you think you're going to do that. in California? >> Maybe. >> Mhm. >> Maybe. you know, I mean, born and. raised. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> You know, and and uh you can take the. kid out of the country, but you can't. take the country out of the kid there, you know. >> So, we're we're still But right now, I.

already. drawing I already finished drawing. >> Well, hey, California could use. something like that. >> Yeah, >> really could. Yeah, >> because uh I I've already, believe it or. not, I've already done nine pieces of. equipment that nobody's ever seen. >> Five five machines that nobody's ever. seen. And it's all about a mentally, physically, and spiritually endurance, >> you know, to take you to the next level. that you never thought you can get. there.

>> So, if you do something, when are you. planning on doing it? Well, right now we be uh I'm just taking. one day at a time because uh sometimes. you go jump ahead of your time. A lot. can happen in one day. >> Yeah. >> So, I take it one day at a time, but. I've already started it and we'll see. where it goes. I I really can't answer. you. >> Okay. >> When But it's on the making. >> That's beautiful. That makes me very. happy because uh you've got a lot to. teach people. Both of you do, you know,

and you with your outreach. Yes. you. have a lot to teach people. >> We've actually talked, you know, at one. point, you know, about us buying a a a. huge building and and having a a gym. there, but also servicing people there. right out of there. You know, the people. that come to our office for tattoo. removal and moving their lives down the. up the road a little bit. All that comes. with the programming of the different. services. I'm not going to inundate this. broadcast with this Joe, but at the same.

time, we've had that conversation. You. know, it is about humanity. You know, it. is about people. >> People need a place. >> People need [clears throat] a place to. come. And they came from all over the. world. When they get a chance to hear. something like this, they will come from. all over the world to mirror their. truth, to look at themselves, their. purpose and reason why they exist, why. they're here, what are they doing. uh that's the kind of place in my mind. is what.

uh I've designed. That's why I designed. equipment and all that for this place. >> Well, that makes me very happy that. you're considering doing that. I think. that would be amazing and I think you're. right. I think people will come from. [snorts] all over the world to train. there and to learn there. >> and uh I I really hope that happens. I. really do. >> Gentlemen, thank you very much for being. here. It's an honor. >> Thank you, Joe. My pleasure. >> Absolutely. >> And it's good to see you again. >> Good to see you, too. Good to see you. >> Good to see you. Still bobbing and.

weaving. >> Yes, sir. Yes, sir. [music] Okay. Thank. you, everybody. [music].