Joe Rogan Experience #541 - Mike Baker

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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. [Music]. All righty. Mike Baker, first of all, sir, thank you very much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank. you. Love the podcast. And by the way, uh the code word uh Rogan may not be. that secure as a code word, but it's a. good one. It's a terrible code word as. far as security. No, if it was your. Wi-Fi password, I would say uh you're in. deep. You got to change that thing. So,

well, coming from you, you you know. about some [ __ ] Uh you're you're a. former Well, explain what you did. You. were the former covert operations. officer for the CIA. Yeah, I I I uh went. in I was recruited into the agency. Uh. and and the CIS divided into a handful. of directorates. You've got the director. of operations, which is pretty much what. it sounds like. Uh you've got the. director of intelligence, which is where. they put all the smart people, and they. do all the reports writing. They take. all the raw intelligence that's coming.

in from the field and they put into some. usable form that can then be kicked out. the door to the National Security. Council, the White House. It's it's used. by uh the other agencies in the intel. community and and primarily by the White. House. So, a lot of smart people sitting. over there. Then they've got S&T, which. is science and technology. That's where. you get all the gear. So that's where. they develop all I mean they've. developed in in the agency over the. years. Everything from the U2 to uh you. know stealth uh technology um drone. capability all a lot of the drone. technology came right out of the agency.

They've done a tremendous number of. things uh right there inhouse and uh. then we have the administrative. logistics group and they're incredibly. important because they keep uh money and. gear and everything else flowing out to. the field. What is the biggest. misconception about the CIA? you being, you know, a guy who worked with them for. years, like I know that there's all. sorts of wacky conspiracies out there. about everything. Anything that there is. where people don't have all the facts. and information, there's going to be. wacky conspiracies. Look, I know a bunch.

of wacky conspiracies just about the. UFC. They're ridicul and me knowing the. actual inside truth. I hear these things. and I go, "What the [ __ ] are you talking. about? things that I'm supposed to say, the things that I had to do because, you. know, the UFC made me or they said you. have to say this, which is all 100%. [ __ ] right? What's what are the big. misconceptions? Um, no, you're. absolutely right. And and the agency is. is uh is like it attracts this sort of. thing, right? It attracts sort of the. Byzantine theories and the conspiracy. theories and all that because again,

it's it there's a reason why you have. secrets. There's a reason why you. protect sources and methods. And so. because you don't have transparency that. people would like to see, they assume. that you're out to [ __ ] them over. You're out to screw the world. And and. that's just not the case. So I guess the. the number one conspiracy is that. somehow the uh the CIA and the intel. community of the US is is uh involved in. some one world government that they're. basically out to [ __ ] everybody and. they're not. The the agency is an. incredibly a-olitical organization. Doesn't matter who's in charge in the. White House. You get your task and you. march on. And that's a really good thing.

because a lot of other countries over. there, including a lot of our allies, they have very politicized intel. communities. So every time you get a. change in leadership, you know, out go. some people, in come some new people, and they're beholdened to the uh to the. White House. So that's one of the. things, you know, I suppose the other. thing would be um that we've got nothing. but hot chicks walking around the. building and and if you walk in, we got. wonderful people, but we you know, we. don't have that many hot chicks. Isn't. that because of Homeland? Yeah, exactly. That one show [ __ ] it up for.

everybody. Yeah. Alias and all the all. the other the movies, the Beach Books, you know, everybody's supposed to be hot. in the agency. It it I was disappointed, too. I mean, when I started there, I got. in for my first couple of days of. training, I kept thinking, are they. hiding them? Are they are they someplace. else? Or, you know, a lot of really. great people. But, you know, the quote. of hot chicks was was less than I. expected. You you bring up an. interesting point about being. apolitical. Now, that's one thing that a. lot of people worry about when it comes. to organizations that they may have more. power in fact than the political.

governing body that controls the. country. Like one of the big theories. about the CIA was the CIA had Kennedy. killed because Kennedy was trying to get. rid of the CIA. I mean, wasn't that one. of the big ones? That was that was one. of the big ones. That's and that's still. endearing. Uh I did a I I I co-host uh a. show on Travel Channel, America. Declassified, right? That was the first. season. It's going to they're changing. the title for the second season, but in. the first season, we uh we we looked at. the the Kennedy assassination and. absolutely I talked to a number of.

people who have been involved in in in. you know studying that for a long time. and there you you're never going to. shift them off that position that the. agency was involved and there's a lot of. people out there and part of it is. because again there's no transparency. and people assume the worst if they. don't get exactly what they want to hear. and people like conspiracy theories. anyway. They always Yeah, they're fine. They're fine. Yeah. What's not to like? So, you uh you interviewed that Jim Mars. guy on your show, America Declassified, and he's uh he's he's an interesting. cat. He's a full-on nutter, right? Is.

he? Yeah, he's I'll stick with he's an. interesting cat. Yeah, I'll go with he's. a fullon nutter slashin interesting cat. And he's uh he's all about UFOs and. bases on the moon. And I'm not saying. there's not bases on the moon. I mean, that part there. Yeah, I can confirm. that. But, uh, as far as the Kennedy. assassination goes, again, it's it's. it's one of those things you could see. why at the end of not I don't want to. disappear down that rabbit hole, but you. could see why at the end of that story, that episode when we talked to a lot of. people, we did a lot of research. You. can see why the the theory still holds,

the conspiracy still out there. What do. you think happened with Kennedy? Do you. think Oswald acted alone? Yeah. You know. what? I think that um once you get. inside there, we got really good access. into that, and that's part of what the. show's about, but we we had really good. access into that window, that very spot. where, you know, he took the shots. Now, he wasn't he wasn't Lex Luthor, but he. had enough training. And when you look. at the distance involved, the line of. sight, the weather conditions, the. lighting conditions, the fact that he. reconed that target or that site. beforehand because he worked there, he. had every advantage he needed. And so,

the idea that he could make those shots. with the with the training that he had. received from the Marines, again, he. would was he the world's greatest. sniper? Of course not. But he had. enough. And also, he had an element of. luck going for him, which you always. need in operations. So, I think I think. he took the shots. Now, I also think. that he was. um in his mind he felt he was doing this. because he was desperate to join at that. point. He was desperate to join the. Cuban revolution. He had been very. disappointed by his time spent over in. Russia. Um and he had come back and he.

was looking for something and he felt uh. this is my theory, he felt that, you. know, this was going to get him in with. Castro by doing this. And I honestly. believe that. Now, here's the other part. that's a bit of a wild card. uh the uh. the the the Cuban intel service had a. file, a massive file on him courtesy of. the Russians. Of course, the Russ I mean. the Russians trained most of the Cuban. intel service at that time and they had. provided a great deal of information. because uh Oswald had been living in. Russia for all that time. He married a. Russian woman. He you know worked in a.

radio factory and and and again had a. very disappointing experience and the. Russians were pretty much happy to get. rid of him at that point because he was. you know he was serving no purpose. And. so by the time he had gotten back to the. states, the Cubans already had a big. file on him. Now, he had also gone to. Mexico. There was an unexplained trip. that he had taken down to Mexico City. So, do do I think that there's a. potential that probably not directed by. the Cuban government, but probably in. his mind thinking this is how I do it. This is how I get in. This is he was I. mean, he was a sociopath. Um, but I.

think it's one of the things that bugs. me about people the way they look at the. Kennedy assassination is that it's. either Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone or. it was a conspiracy and Lee Harvey. Oswald wasn't a part of it. And my. thoughts are always like, why would you. assume that he wasn't a part of it just. because people said there were shots. from other directions? First of all, we. all know that eyewitness accounts are. some of the most unreliable accounts. ever. Absolutely. People see things that. aren't there. They hear things. They. remember things completely wrong that if.

especially in a traumatic event, your. adrenaline fires up, your heart rate. goes up, there's shots going off, you. hear. things with Michael Brown. Yeah, exactly. Well, um that's another we go. down that rabbit hole, too. But the the. the thing that drives me crazy about the. the Kennedy assassination, too, is when. they show Lee Harvey out when they try. to disprove it, like Jesse Ventura did a. show where he tried to disprove it. He. was holding a rifle in his arm. He was. he was cocking it and firing it, but he. was standing holding it. And I'm like,

you got a window sill. If you're trying. to hit something accurately, why would. you hold it in your arm? Yeah. Why. wouldn't you rest it on that window. sill? When you're resting it on. something, you It's incredibly stable. You don't have to be a master marksman. When you have a rifle resting down on. something, all it is is about not. flinching. It's a platform, and it's. going to give you some stability. And. and we looked at that with with the MLK. with Martin Luther King assassination, too. Um, and you know, the fact that the. shot was taken out of a bathroom window. and and it was clear given the the that. that yes, it common sense tells you and.

the and the physical nature of that. tells you that he rested the the weapon. on the windowsill. So, you look at. Oswald and again, Oswald wreckied this. site. He knew what he was getting into. He knew how he was going to take this. shot and he had had sufficient training. from the Marines. So, I agree with you. And and that's typically with conspiracy. theories, it's typically always it's all. one or it's all the other. and and the. real world operates in a much different. murkier environment than that. So, no. doubt. No doubt. But what bothers me.

about it, there's a bunch of things that. bother me about it. The the single. bullet theory without a doubt bothers me. because that doesn't make any sense at. all. When you see that bullet showing up. on Conny's gurnie, it's in pristine. condition. It's supposed to gone through. two bodies. There's more. There's bullet. particles, fragments that are in Conny's. body. They showed up on X-ray. They're. not missing from that bullet. That seems. a little wonky. And the whole reason. Arlene Spectre concocted that in the. first place was because they had to. account for a bullet that hit a. curbstone under the overpass. Guy got. hit with a ricochet. Now they've. attributed three bullets to this one guy.

shooting. They have to attribute all. these wounds to one bullet for this. theory to make any sense. That to me is. the biggest hole in the uh the. conspiracy. Right. And that's and I mean. at the end of our episode and for what. it's worth, I mean we basically include. look like it's clear there are issues. here that remain. And are they likely to. be solved? Probably not given the fact. that a lot of people have passed away. Some in, you know, odd circumstances. We. looked at that issue, too. The people. that, you know, that died after the. fact. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, but.

again, uh, you know, our point was not. to I think anytime you set out to. disprove a conspiracy theory or prove. it, you're you're going to be left. unsatisfied. But the disprove part was. wonky, though. The holding the gun was. wonky. Like the why would he hold it? And the other thing was wonky. They said. the sight was off. We checked the rifle. The sight was off. Well, this is in. person. I can tell you I wounded a deer. once that I was trying to kill cuz I. dropped a rifle. I fell. I dropped the. rifle and the sight went off like that. You could take a You got a rifle, you're.

moving it around from the the crime. scene, you're putting it somewhere else, you're putting in cars, and then you. test it. You can't tell me that rifle. sight was off when he shot it cuz you. don't know, right? You don't you don't. know. And you're absolutely right. you. know how sensitive those things and. particularly older technology, right? So, uh I mean some of the some of the. gear now is pretty robust and and. designed to stand up to to pretty. difficult conditions, but you know that. gear that you know Yeah, it's old and. and you're absolutely right. It went. from place to place to place. The Secret. Service was storing it. The bureau was.

storing it. Everybody was, you know, had. their hands on it. Yeah. But if he had. it cited in, if it was accurate at the. time and he's resting it on the window, man, that's a different animal. Yeah. My. number one problem with his single. bullet theory. That's the number one. problem. Yeah. The other thing is the. Zaprruder film. The Zapruder film was. weird because this everybody points to. the Zapruder film the whole back and to. the left. Back into the left. You know, you see Kennedy, it looks like he's. getting shot from the front. But what. they don't say is that the blood is kind. of spraying forward. If you watch that.

video, he's going back to the left, but. the the blood is is spraying forward. almost as if he was hit twice. Like he. was hit with one bullet from the front. and one bullet from the back. I mean, it's it's again, it's one of. those it's the movement of the vehicle. It's it's, you know, it's it's it's his. immobility to begin with. I mean, if he. didn't have back problems, you know, he. could have he probably he probably could. have maneuvered himself out, you know, quick enough, but Kennedy was fairly. immobile, you know, he was that's a lot. of things, one of the things that people. don't realize. He was really sick before. he died. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, and it.

was again, so I think the conspiracy. things going back to your original. point, the agency is always sort of. ground zero for people's conspiracies. Yeah. Well, there's so many people. involved in it, too. One of the things. that I found completely fascinating. about uh this whole thing with Petraeus. is Petraeus got in trouble with the the. FBI was investigating the CIA and there. they you know the whole thing with the. uh the emails like that seems to me to. be so crazy that agencies investigate.

other agencies. Is there really. competition between like the CIA and the. FBI? Well, you know what? It it's better. than it used to be. I mean, I remember. when uh when the when the when the when. the bureau started going overseas, uh. when they started getting involved in in. uh terrorism issues overseas, um they. would send their people out. And I. remember I was I was operating overseas. and I remember we had a we had a meeting. one time and I went into uh to uh to an. embassy um because they said, "Look, you. know, we're going to have a meeting.".

Okay. We were doing something out on the. street. So, I remember going in there. and and looking at our guys, you know, taking down, you know, maps and photos. and charts and everything, you know, of. this thing that was going to happen and. stuffing them in a desk. And I said, "What's going on?" They said, "Well, the. bureau is coming. in." So, so, you know, we got to take. all this [ __ ] down. We don't want them. to see this stuff. But the idea was we. were, you know, working together. And if. you're out on the street, I mean, our. natural response was, "Well, I thought. we're working together cuz I don't I.

don't want to get my ass caught out. there if you know, if we could tell them. something that would make sense, but you. know, also at the same time, the bureau. was telling us about 50% of what they. knew." And so there was there was a lot. of uh difficulty. Some of it highlighted. after 911 that was talked about a lot, so I don't want to go into that. Everybody talked about other the need to. play well with others. And so it's got. it has gotten a lot better. We've got a. much better relationship. And I I. personally because I work with him and. have worked with them a lot in the past, I I I have a great deal of appreciation. for the bureau. And so that side of.

things has gotten a lot better. Is it. ever going to get perfect? Well, no, because you know, is it human nature? It's human nature. Yeah. You're pissing. on each other's turf sometimes. And you. know, now the agency's, you know, in a. in a bit of a different situation. I. mean, the bureau has bigger issues with. ATF and some others uh because they're. all kind of focused on on law. enforcement in some capacity. and and uh. my old outfit, you know, we got a. different focus. So, it doesn't usually. surface and when it does, it's typically. in a in a terrorist concern. Um so, but.

it it it is better. It is better. Look. at Look at me, Mr. Rosie. Mr. I've got a. I've got my glass half full. And by the. way, the coffees and I I [ __ ] you not. this. We talked about it before, but. this is great coffee. Yeah, it's. delicious. That's caveman coffee from. Columbia. Um the the the thing about it. is is it because everybody wants to take. credit? Is it like, you know, the FBI. wants to take credit for catching bad. guys and the CIA is going after the same. people and they're competing to reach. the finish line first? Is that what it. is? Uh in part, yeah, I mean I I'd.

probably be lying if I said there's not. an element. There's got to be an element. of that, right? Everybody's competitive. and and and these are two very type A. organizations. But um part of it is also. just that the the feeling like you've. got you know what you're doing. you've. got the process and you you and your. process is better. And there's also an. aspect of. it. Law enforcement looks at at uh as an. example, law enforcement looks at. sources differently, right? The agency. is all about uh developing sources and. and maintaining those and building on. them because what are you trying to do? You're trying to gather intelligence,

right? So, we're not trying to to at the. end of the day uh you know bust. somebody. I mean, maybe at the end of an. operation we're looking to you know to. terminate them, but I mean that's that's. a different story. just forget I said that. Um but uh at. the at the end of the day that law. enforcement, you know, often times it's. like let's well, we got a source, great. We don't mind burning that source. because we're after the bust or we're. after, you know, some some gear or. whatever it is. Um and so there's a. there's a fundamental difference there. sometimes in the way that we view our. assets. Um but often times, yeah, I I.

you can't disregard the fact that it's. it's professional pride. It's always. there's always a conflict in every movie. where there's like cops and and you. know, and the FBI comes in. We're taking. over this investigation. [ __ ] this is. our case. You know, that's that's so. common. Get in the captain's office. Come on. Chew your ass out. Yeah. Yeah. They have control of this crime scene. Like, you [ __ ] And then they. leave. That's That's so I think we just. wrote a show, didn't we? I think we did. And it's already been done, I think, a. million times, unfortunately. Yeah. The. CIA guys always end up looking like.

douchebags in the um in the frankly in. the movies or in the shows. I mean, that's But we're we we're used to that, frankly. We we you know just like. getting washed up on Capitol Hill and. having our ass kicked every now and. then. Well, not on Homeland. On. Homeland, you guys look pretty good. That's true. That's true. Is that like. the agency people watch Homeland and go, "Not bad. Not bad." Uh you know what? I. This is going to sound weird, but I. don't watch any of that. I don't I don't. I I'm a terrible person to sit down and. my wife refuses to sit with me and and. even try to start watching something. like that because I I you know, I know.

that she's irritated, but every time I. start kind of squirming going, "No, get. the [ __ ] out of here." you know, and I'm. making noises, you know, and I'm kind of. like and I'm shifting around and she's. finally just says, "Oh, [ __ ] it. Just go. somewhere else." Yeah. So, I can I can. understand. I I did that when I watched. Punchline with Tom Hanks and Sally. Fields. I was like, "Get the [ __ ] out.". Exactly. Why do they have lockers? Nobody has a locker room in You guys. don't get lockers. We don't have. lockers. Where do you put your We don't. have anything. Sports gear. Where do you. put your jocks around? Yeah. Where do. you put your [ __ ] lacrosse stick? Yeah, it's ridiculous. But is there.

anybody who's gotten it right? Is there. like any movie or anything that you've. ever seen where like that's pretty damn. close? You know, there's uh some old. school ones. Uh when you talk about. straight up um Trade Craft, when you're. talking about old school espionage, then. things like uh Smileys People uh some of. the old sort of BBC shows. Oh, I don't. even know what that is. What is Smiley's. People? It's an old uh was it Leri, I. think, that uh that wrote it. I'm not. sure. Um but it's a it's it hasn't been. air airing for a long long time. Uh but.

that was good. The Good Shepherd is a. movie. The Good Shepherd I thought was. very interesting. It kind of dragged on. for a while and and honestly, who could. believe that, you know, if you're. married to Angelina Jolie, you're going. to want to like go away all the time. Probably annoying after a while. Yeah. Yeah. That's a week with her on an. island somewhere, you'd be like, "All. right, bitch." A week. I'm giving it. longer than a week. Really? Yeah. I. would have to give it longer than a. week. You're a patient, man. Yeah, I am. a patient man. So, but I think that u. those those were good. Um they did a. show and I I full uh disclosure I I I.

worked on the show from its inception uh. called uh Spooks in the UK and it was uh. it was called um MI5 over here in the. States and it aired for a number several. seasons. It was actually I think. probably the most successful show in in. UK television history and that it ran. for about eight years as a drama. More. successful than Top Gear. Well, yeah. No, not no not not that but I mean like. a drama. Typically what they do is if. they get success with a drama or a. comedy, they just stop it because they.

feel guilty because I don't know, it's. it's a British thing. But they this. thing ran for eight seasons. Um they did. a very good job of of, you know, not. focusing on the explosions and the car. chases and everything and it was it was. more about tradecraftraft and things. that were going on um to accomplish an. operation. But uh I like the Borne. series. I think, you know, I know that. that's not realistic, but I like I know. it's so unrealistic, but I like the. pacing of it. I like that, you know, usually, you know, the filming is great, the the movie. So, as a way to just. because it's so obviously not realistic.

It's great. You can got to immerse in. the ones I have trouble with it where. they try to, you know, they throw a. little something in there. They try to. make it look like they know what they're. doing, right? And then you think, "Oh, for [ __ ] sake." But yeah, the Born. series is more like a superhero show. Exactly. So, you can you can kind of get. lost in it a little bit easier. You know. what my problem with the Born series is? This is my major problem with it, and. especially the last one. It seems like. they're. pussifying superheroes and and tough. guys to the point where they never try. to get laid ever. Yeah. They have zero.

sexual attraction to the most beautiful. women on the planet. They are have. totally pure altruistic purposes to all. of their actions. Everything they do is. noble. Like this guy, who the [ __ ]. Jeremy Rener. Is that what he I didn't. see the last one. The last one is. [ __ ] ridiculous cuz he's with this. chick as hot as the [ __ ] sun and. she's fawning over him and at the end of. the scene, the end of the movie, they're. sitting apart from each other. Like, he. saved her life about 150 [ __ ] times. She should be so he's he's handsome.

He's a stud. He's kicked 150,000. people's asses in front of her. Like, she should be blown away by this guy. And they or they should be or vice. versa. Yeah, both. And they're leaving. They're on this boat and they're sitting. apart from each other like as far apart. as you and I are. Like they're not even. hugging. Like there's nothing. James. Bond would have [ __ ] her a million. times. Oh yeah. Probably in the first 5. minutes. I mean that's the whole point. of a Bond movie. But that's I mean isn't. that doing that even is supposed to be a.

man of danger out there kicking ass and. action? Yeah. No, and believe me, I I go. back to my point about the hot chicks. when I first started the agency. I I. thought that was that was kind of part. of the deal. But um this the the the. first three was it three? the first. Three Born movies. You're right. It was. the same way with uh with uh what's his. name? Um who played the role? Yeah, Matt. Damon. Um it was it was always. angstridden, you know, and and if you. got an indication that he might have. just been, you know, banging one of the.

girls that was in the movie, it was he. seemed like he was sorry about it and he. was depressed about it and because I I. don't know. I I'm not sure this is the. right thing to do. Yeah. They're trying. to mute male sexuality when you're. dealing with trained killers. It doesn't. make any sense. I mean, it's like the. polar opposite of what we consider like. if you think about ancient warriors. Think about like Gladiator or any of. these uh ancient warriors. You connect. these ancient warriors with they would. fight and they would [ __ ] But these. born identity guys, there's no [ __ ].

nothing. It it was an interesting thing. I think who knows what they were what. they were thinking. I I I do think they. were trying to make it seem as if they. were just so angstridden that they were. kind of above it all. You know what I. think they're doing? I think they're. doing the same [ __ ] they're doing with. Twilight. They're they're making things. for chicks. They're turning vampires. into these [ __ ] glittery glittery. queers that like hang out in the forest. and they don't hurt anybody. It's. madness. They're doing this thing where. they're turning into these romantic. novels of completely unrealistic. behavior. That's what they're doing.

Anybody out there who wants success, just write like a tween book uh include. a vampire uh and no sex and I guess. you're good to go. But the thing is, it's not tween. It's grown women want. that [ __ ] too. It's this weird fantasy. thing that it plays off of. It's I don't. understand it. I The the female psyche. is a mystery to me. And dude, everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm with you on that. one. Although I I am married to the. world's greatest woman. So No, you're. not. I am. So, good luck with that. Are. we married to the same girl? We're not. Good God.

How would that be if we found that out? That would be crazy. We both would be. Oh my god. What do your kids look like? They look like your kids. Yeah, my kids. look like you. Um, so well, we've solved. that issue here today. Uh, yeah. No, she's uh she's absolutely terrific and. she uh she uh from Idaho and that's. where we've moved. Yeah, we moved back. there. Oh, you live up there? Beautiful, man. New York. So, Celane, man, that. lake up there. Holy [ __ ] that's. beautiful. Just up there. And it is.

fantastic. And other places, MCL, Red. Fish Lake, you know, Payet Lake. Uh, just beautiful, beautiful place. Stunning. Just a stunning part of the. country. Do you guys have a lot of. wolves up there? Uh, yeah. Yeah. And. they delisted wolves because, you know, it's it's right. And so, you know, if. you if you've got a wolf problem, shoot. the [ __ ] But, um, it's, you know, people don't understand that. It's just. like people, you know, people trying to. dictate what you do with public lands. when they have no experience dealing. with public lands in their state, you. know, and that's kind of the way things. work nowadays. Uh, but yeah, she uh. she's from Idaho, went back east. I met.

her out there uh when she was working. with a lobbying firm and and I came home. one day from uh from uh we were living. in in New Kanan, Connecticut, which is a. nice little town uh outside of New York. But I was on Metro North riding the. train back and forth where my office is. in Midtown. Walked in the door said, you. know, I don't think I have to be here uh. to do what what I do, which is basically. just travel um for the for the business. And within a week, she had the house on. the market. Within 5 weeks, we were. settled in Idaho. Wow. Fantastic. Yeah,

it worked out great. Did you know. anybody out there? Did you just I you. know, I didn't. We've been going out. there to hunt and fish and and raft and. climb and ski over the past handful of. years. So, I knew the area, but I didn't. know anybody, but she knew a lot of. people. She and so, you know, we've. settled in very nicely. It's so calm out. there. That's the thing that people. don't appreciate. Folks that are like. stuck in the rat race of LA or in New. York or anywhere where there's. unbelievable cra like the peace that you. can get in a place like Montana or. Idaho. It's just Wyoming. Yeah. beauty.

of the nature. It's it's something that. if you can do it, I mean, if you don't. have a job that requires you to be in a. city, right? And and and you know, more. and more people, you know, I think have, you know, have the opportunity sometimes. to be able to do that, but you can fool. yourself into thinking that I got to be. here. I got to be in this this. epicenter, whether it's Los Angeles or. Chicago or New York or wherever. And, you know, because, hey, it's an. important place and so therefore I'm. important, you know, but I I you know, I. sat on that train, you know, long enough. going back and forth to to realize I. wasn't that important. So, I figured, hey, time to move. But it's worked out.

The quality of life is, you know, I. sound like I'm with the the Boise, Idaho. Chamber of Commerce. It's beautiful. Boise is beautiful. It's clean air and. people are nice. Great live music, good. bars and restaurants. It's a it's you. know, BSU's there. Uh Boise State. University. Uh so, it's got it's it's. just the right size. And I got three. little boys and and I tell you what, you. know, we're out in the fishing uh you. know, five minutes from the house. We're. up in the foothills. Um you know, when. they're old enough, you know, the. hunting is great. So, it'll be good. Yeah, Idaho is beautiful. There's a lot.

of great parts of this country that. don't get enough credit. Everybody likes. to call the fly over states, you know, fly over between New York and. LA. Yeah, it's pretty weird. It's weird. that But I think also because for the. longest time culturally those spots. weren't as as rich, but now because of. the internet, everything is ch we were. talking about this the other day. People. just they're not Hicks anymore in the. middle. It's not the same. It's not like. nobody has books. Like everybody's. online. Like the the level of. intelligence and awareness of the.

average folks like just in the middle of. the country is way different than it was. 20 30 years ago, right? the flow of. information much better and that's. that's helped and and then but you can. you know I spent uh what about seven. years uh in in the northeast uh in the. New York City area and you know people. in that area you know I I got wonderful. friends there but but a lot of folks can. believe that the rest of the country. thinks like they do and and and or that. they should uh because they just don't. know any better because they're not.

right there. not in the heartbeat of. America as they would refer to it. And. and you know, you get outside that. northeast corridor and Washington DC in. particular. Washington DC is so far up. its own. ass. And that's one of these things with. this Travel Channel show. That's a. pretty good plug, wasn't it? Um the. great thing about that is being able to. just go out and travel and see how great. this country is and how like you said, how many places there are to see. And. you know, I spent most of my life.

overseas and so for me it's a real treat. because we're going all over Helen back. and just it's it's an incredible. country. When you try to leave the CIA, do they go um are you sure? Do they go. uh do you really want to do that? Um. what are you going to do when you go. out? You going to get on TV? What are. you going to talk about, Mike? Yeah. They did. I got a great relationship. with them and and uh and I I I'm one of. those guys that, you know, I have a hard. time being objective sometimes about it. Although I I I try not to, you know, uh.

look through rosecolored glasses every. time, you know, I'm talking about. operations or things that they're doing. But I had a great time and I got a lot. of respect for the people there. And so. when I got ready to leave, and I I left. for a pretty simple reason. I've got a. daughter who's uh in college, terrific, terrific kid. Um and I was just never. home when she was growing up. And so we. got to a certain point where I I didn't. have a choice. I had to be home. And so, um, I I walked in and I was overseas at. the time and I walked into my, uh, my my. boss who was very senior, um, in the.

operations group, and I said, "I think. it's time to leave." And he said, "What. are you going to do? You can't you can't. leave." You know, just stick around. And. he knew I was getting antsy and and he. said, "Stick around. It it you know, it's going to get better." Cuz we had. gotten a little bit riskaverse at that. point. And and it gets a little wearing. after a while to be working on. operations and then all of a sudden at. the at the last minute, people say, "No, we can't do that. too much blowback and. then you pull back and you think what. the [ __ ] was that all about? Like what. kind of risk of risk aver can you talk. about the operations? Yeah. I mean a lot. of times it's it's just political. blowback concern over what a host.

country might say if if if something. went south. Yeah. If no if something. went south if you're operating in. another country and and something you're. about to do uh you know blows up on you. and then the political blowback from you. know country to country dealing with. that and and and so that often times is. the sort of thing that people think. about. But anyway, so so this guy a. great great great great character um and. terrific experience uh with the agency. He said stick around. So anyway, long. story short, I went back to uh to. Virginia uh resigned um to uh to start a.

business and um uh I woke up the next. morning and the guy had said, "You're. going to feel terrible if you do this. If you go back and you and you resign, you're going to feel terrible when you. wake up." And so I woke up and I felt. pretty damn good. So So I called him. overseas. It was towards the end of the. day his time and I said, "I got to tell. you, I feel great." And he said, "What a. dick." And so, uh, but he's gotten out. since. He's retired and now he's in. business and we get together a lot. And. he says, "Yeah, some of the worst advice. I ever gave anybody." So, but it was,

you know, it was, uh, it it was it was. not easy leaving because, you know, you. have a huge amount of respect. You spend. a lot of time, you know, in there and. you're doing things, um, that you know, sometimes you're doing things, you know, nobody else is doing. There's nobody. else doing this right now. I remember. having that that feeling walking away. from something and thinking that's it. I'm the only person that's just done. this right now. And it's pretty it's a. pretty special thing and that's kind of. they they draw you in that way because. you know of the challenge and the. patriotism and all the rest of it and. that's exactly how it should be. You. know, nobody does it for the money.

That's for sure. If there's one bit of. controversy or the the main controversy, the main conspiracy when it comes to the. CIA, it's drugs. The main evil. conspiracy is that the CIA was involved. in selling drugs in African-American. communities to fund foreign wars. The. Contras, the Nicaragua, you know, the. whole thing with Oliver North, you know, with uh Freeway Ricky Ross, the guy. who's out now, he was involved directly. with selling drugs. The money went.

straight to the CIA. The CIA used that. money. You're shaking your head. I'm. shaking my head. Yeah. You don't believe. it? No. Look, I I I spent a long enough. time behind the curtain and and and I. mean, of course, what what are people. going to if people who who are down that. road are going to be listening to this. guy, what the [ __ ] Of course, he's. going to say that. I mean, what what. else is he going to say? But honest to. God, I' I'd spend enough time behind the. curtain um in uh in operations the whole. time to to to say that we've got a lot. of restrictions on us in terms of what. we can do, who we can deal with, and.

what you're able to accomplish. And um. yeah, the the the whole concept of the. drug thing, I I don't know when that got. started. I don't know how it sort of. popped up initially, but it takes on a. life of its own, like everything else, like like theories about the Kennedy. assassination, like we were talking. about. Um. and you're never going to let him go. away. And sometimes saying that, you. know, if if I sit here and and protest, people are going to say, "Well, of. course that must be true because he's. protesting." Is it possible that things. went on that you don't know about? Oh,

absolutely not. How would that happen? No, of course. there is. Yeah. I mean, but but at the. same time Yeah. But at the same time, um. I will say this much. Uh people can't. keep their yap shut. Well, Barry Seals. is I'm sorry. What? You know who Barry. Seals is? Barry Seals dead now, but. Barry Seal was he was a fighter. He was. a pilot rather and uh a drug smuggler. and he said that he flew covert flights. for the Central Intelligence Agency for.

the Well, he's dead now. He died. He was. assassinated when he was on his way to. testify with George Bush's phone number. in his pocket. That's the salacious. details. That's the details and that's. got to be true, right? Well, he had. photographs with CIA agents and Medí. cartel officers. I mean, he without a. doubt was a drug runner. The question is. whether he was actually running drugs. for the CIA. Yeah, I Yeah, I feel. comfortable being here and saying no. Of. course, you got to say that. Well, but.

but also I mean, and again, you're. right. The more times I say it, people. go, "Well, it's got to be true because. he's he's saying it so often." Um, but. I, you know, I. uh the agency is is operated by humans. just like everything else. And so, it's. never going to be perfect. It's never. going to be perfect. There will be uh. slip-ups. Iran Contra, you know, um the. whole decision to nation build in Iraq. and and what that meant, although the. agency, you know, doesn't drive policy, so I'm not sure what what that's got to. do. But the Iran Contra thing is. directly connected to selling drugs in.

in poor neighborhoods in LA. Yeah. But. Freeway Ricky Ross like literally sold. hundreds of millions of dollars worth of. drugs, but not for the agency. Well, he. says that that's how he got a hold of. the drugs. Why wouldn't you? I mean, a. connection to the agency. Yeah, but but. that's I guess that's my point. If I'm. if I'm a dirt bag, you know what am I going to do? I'm. going to complicate things and muddy the. waters because I'm going to say, "Well, my god, I did it for the government. I. did it for the I did it for the bureau.

I did it for the Secret Service or. whatever." Freeway Ricky Ross didn't. even realize he was selling drugs for. the CIA until he was in jail. He didn't. know who the connections were that he. was getting. What's interesting about. Barry Seal, the guy who died, is that he. was an informant for the DEA. The DEA, as you were talking about, the CIA and. the FBI have like a little combative. relationship. So do the DEA and the CIA. There's all sorts of I worked with the. DEA. I worked with the DEA overseas in. in uh in counter narcotics operations.

And uh again, yeah, I mean, part of it. is is uh going back to the same thing we. talked about with the bureau. relationships. uh during those early. days starting out working with them. overseas, there's a lot of kind of. peeing on each other's turf. Relationship is much better now. But I. guess all I'm saying is, and I'll I'll. I'll leave it at that, is that the. agency um was not in the business of. selling uh drugs. If we wanted money to. uh fund. operations, we had other resources to to.

gather that money rather than narcotics. and selling drugs to uh lower income. neighborhoods in the United States of. America. I just it's just to me I. understand you're never going to shift. people off a certain position and. people, you know, are going to are going. to believe what they're going to. believe, but um it kind of goes back to. what I said at the very beginning. The. number one misconception is that this. agencies out to [ __ ] people over. Yeah. This this Barry Seal one is a very. interesting one because he had so much. information about the CIA and so much. information about the Medí cartel and.

drug dealing in the first place. What he. had actually said led people to believe. that he was a a guy who was very. knowledgeable about the actual. operations. It's the number one piece of. evidence that points to the CIA. And. then what happened with Michael Roert, Michael Roupert who's a former LA. narcotics officer of busted people and. he uh Do you know Michael? You've been. down you you've you've you I've been. down every I was going to say man you've. been you've been spending a lot of time. down the rabbit Warren um yeah you know.

again uh we're we're going to just be at. loggerheads constantly on on this one. because I you know I I I keep going back. to the same thing. I understand why why. people find it interesting or I. understand why people believe okay I'm. gonna this is what I'm going to choose. to believe. uh I got a different. perspective based on a lot of life. experience inside the organization and. and if I saw [ __ ] that I thought was. absolutely you know untenable then yeah. I'd like to think I'm a decent enough. person and I don't have a dog in the. hunt I'm not you know bound by anything. other than a respect for the.

organization based on the experience. I've had with them. So anyway but that's. exactly what people would expect me to. say. Well the guy who was the head of. the CIA the director of cell central. intelligence agency in 96 was Don John. Deutsch. that's how you say his name. Uh. he was uh in Los Angeles. He was at a. town hall meeting and Michael Roupert. who was a former LA narcotics officer. He was an officer at the time confronted. him saying that in his experience as an. LAPD narcotics officer, he had seen. evidence of the CIA complicity and drug.

dealing and that the confrontation was. handled so poorly by Deutsch, it. resulted in him being terminated from. the CIA. It resulted in Deutsch being terminated. No, it No, it didn't. No, don't. Why was. he terminated? Well, because he was uh. he just wasn't good. He just wasn't. good. He was acknowledged along with. Stanfield Turner and a couple others of. being not our most uh effective beloved. uh directors. You know, that's not I. don't want to burge anybody's character,

but at the same time, the idea that he. Well, he was on. television go as a director. No. Um, have you ever seen uh the video of Rert. confronting him? Uh, no I haven't. But I. I I've I've dealt I've dealt with John. Deutsch. I've been there when John. Deutsch was there. Not a good guy. No, I. mean, you know, you always have. favorites. It's like anything else. I. have my favorite boss at the company or. I got my favorite and you know, I've got. my favorite uh directors for sure. Who's. your favorite podcaster? Oh, it's it's. got to be this Rogan guy. I mean, his.

coffee is outstanding and uh yeah, but. no, it's it's uh it is what it is. I. mean, I I'll play this one thing for you. and then we'll let it go. All right, but. Michael Roupert confronting John. Deutsch. Pull that pull this up, Jamie, because it's pretty fascinating. Watch. this. Okay, this is when I will tell. you, Director Deutsch, as a former Los. Angeles police narcotics detective, that. the agency has dealt drugs throughout. this country for a long. time.

People are clapping, so it must be true. It must be true. Yeah, that's a. crowd-pleasing statement. All right. I come to it. All right. Obviously, that is an answer for a lot. of you. Now, can you please I refer All. right. Now, can you please I refer to. it. Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. This chick's not good at her job. No.

No. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. All right, principal. Come on. Wait a minute. If you don't. seat what's going on here, please leave. now. Oh, that's a good way to do it. Represent. Representative Wanita. McDonald. You can stop by the CIA. narcotics booth on your way out. Pick up. your coke. I will come back to you as we. roll back across to the center section.

What? Yeah. Director Deutsch, I will. refer you to three specific agency. operations known as Amadeus, Pegasus, and Watchtower. I assure documents. heavily redacted by the agency. I was. personally exposed to CIA operations and. recruited by CIA personnel who attempted. to recruit me in the late '7s to become. involved in protecting agency drug. operations in this country. I have been. trying to get this out for 18 years and. I have the evidence. My question for you. is very specific, sir. If in the course.

of the IG's investigations and Fred. Hitz's work, you come across evidence of. severely criminal activity, let him. speak, and it's classified, will you use. that classification to hide the criminal. activity or will you tell the American. people the truth? All right. You want to hear the response. first from Congressman Julian Dixon and.

then from the director? Wait. Good. Wait a minute. From York. From York. I'm sorry. This is kind of. This is You could pause it here. I mean, he basically said what he needed to say. Yeah. So, what do you think about that. kind of [ __ ] That's the first guy who. ever claimed to have been tried to be. recruited by the CIA. Well, he's a LA. narcotics officer. I mean, he's he's a. legitimate guy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. That's that's I I look at it and I.

see uh the same thing I see in in uh in. uh a lot of other cases, you have sort. of a a delusion thing going on, a. delusion of grander. We've got sort of. we see it all the time in in guys like. uh not I'm not putting them in the same. category, don't get me wrong, but guys. like Hansen, guys like Jim Nicholson, uh. Ed Lee Howard, all these things. People. never listen to me. If they just listen. to me, things would have been better. So. therefore, the man's out to [ __ ] me. Therefore, I'm going to [ __ ] the man. And that's typically and the agency is a. is a beautiful shining light up there on. on the hill to uh take a shot at because.

it's so intriguing. Nobody fights back. That's one of the reasons why the agency. is always getting kicked in the ass up. on Capitol Hill. We don't we don't push. back because we're not you're not in a. position to what are you going to go go. back up there and start talking about. sources methods again getting back to. this guy. Uh yeah, I hold absolutely no. credibility and I can guarantee that. Deutsch was not let go because of his. response or lack thereof to uh that uh. particular rant. So, but it doesn't. matter. I'm going to sit here. It's just.

like me saying this is how Kennedy was. killed. It's not going to make any. difference. So, everybody's going to. believe what they're going to believe. Again, I go back to the same. thing. Somebody pushing that theory has. their own life experience. I've got life. experience which you I was fortunate. enough gave me access inside an. organization that I you know that I. think gave me an understanding as to how. they operate and the ethics with which. they have even though people say ethics. the agency that's a I mean again as an. example people people went nuts over the. interrogation thing.

You mean the waterboarding stuff? Yeah, waterboarding stuff. If anybody had. taken the time, all those critics who. had taken the time to read the DOJ memos. that uh holders justice department uh. decided were great to release, then. they you can't not come away from. reading seriously the DOJ memos and not. say, "Well, [ __ ] every little thing. they were going back and forth trying to. see, is this appropriate? Can we do. this? Can we can't do that? Okay, can we. do this? Okay. Can I uh push him against.

a fake wall? Oh, I can't. Can I do the. following? And there's back and forth. and back and forth and back and forth. And it belies this notion that somehow. we're just out there [ __ ] over the. world and acting, you know, like a bunch. of cowboys. Um, so but again, you know, this it's it's it's like the agency. going up on Capitol Hill and trying to. defend itself. There's there's what are. you going to do? People are going to. believe what they believe. What if I was. going to give you advice though in the. future? I mean, obviously you don't need. my advice, but when someone brings up.

something, even if it's ridiculous, don't laugh while you discredit it. because it makes it look like you're. [ __ ] You know, like when people do. that, they go, "What? That's. ridiculous." Yeah. No, I know. I know. And I think you're right. I think you're. right. But but you but you also have to. you also have to realize that it is. ridiculous to you. It is ridiculous to. me. Yeah. So, I'm I'm going to react the. way it's natural for me to react. We're. rogue agents that were involved. I mean, we see it all the time with narcotics. officers. That's a big thing with. narcotics officers. They get involved. They go undercover. They start selling. drugs. They start doing drugs. And then.

they say, "You know what? These. [ __ ] are making millions of. dollars. I'm going to make a little. piece on the side for myself. Put it. away somewhere in a safe deposit box, live off of it or whatever." I mean, it. does happen. People do get corrupted. Yeah. Of course, people get corrupted. I'm not, you know, and I don't And so, back to your point, you know, was I the. director of the agency? No. So, do I. know everything that goes on? No. What. am I saying? I'm saying based on my. experience, based on a lot of time. behind the curtain and and working in a. lot of operational environments and. dealing with a lot of people over 17.

years, um, no. To me, I I don't buy it. Doesn't make any sense. I don't believe. it. But, you know, again, I got to leave. it at that because, you know, anything. in this world is possible. I don't. believe it's possible. I I But that's. exactly what people expect me to say. I. keep going back to that same thing. Of. course, is there always an issue as well. with in order to adequately protect the. United States interests in order to. adequately act in secrecy in the.

interests of the United States people. and government? You kind of there's. there's always going to be like walls. that people come up against where to do. your job, I would imagine, if you're. involved in something that requires a. certain amount of secrecy, you can't. discuss certain things. So when things. come along when Congress wants to have. answers to questions like do you know. what the glowar you know what glowar is. like a glowar response. global marine do you remember when the. Russian submarine yeah years and years. ago there was a Russian submarine that.

the United States was trying to recover. was a nuclear submarine and um Global. Marine was a company that was trying to. pull this great operation yeah it was a. great operation they were trying to pull. this thing out of the the ocean but it. was an incredible operation miles deep. millions of pounds of metal and they had. to pull this nuclear sub up and they. were trying to get all this information. about the the capabilities of these. Russian subs what you know what kind of. documents were on board and it was right. after Watergate. So because there was so. much so much blowback against secrecy.

because of Watergate because everybody. had assumed that the United States well. now we found out that Nixon was spying. on people and he's kicked out of office. So the global marine response to this. was we can neither confirm nor deny. And. that's where that term came from. We can. neither def confirm nor deny. It came. out of them having to come up with some. sort of a response because of the. Freedom of Information Act. It required. them to do so. So they came up with this. way to respond but not respond at the. same Didn't really do any good cuz it. came out in the press anyway eventually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty quickly. But doesn't that kind of highlight like. how difficult it is? I mean, look, this. that's a perfect example. You're dealing. with a Russian submarine. It's during. the Cold War. We're we're worried we're. going to go to war with Russia if we, you know, who the why do we have to tell. you if we found a [ __ ] Russian sub. that's got nuclear missiles in it? Why. why should we have to tell the American. people and also inform the Soviet Union. and then they go and find out where. we're doing this and then they find out. that we have their sub. It [ __ ] up. everything. Right. Right. Well, I mean, you know, decade after decade, it.

becomes it becomes less likely that uh. you know, the government's going to keep. deep secrets, right? Because just the. way information flows and and the access. to information and also with the. internet and just also this this general. inability anymore of officials to to. keep their yap shut. So, you know, I. mean, you look at look at FDR for crying. out loud. press agreed to, you know, not. say anything about his in his his. handicap, you know, and and so for. several years it was just that was kept. under wraps. You can't do that. You're.

not going to do that anymore. I mean, and and so you look at this and you. think, well, yeah, I mean, we can't the. idea that that the government um and. that's a good thing in in a sense. The. idea that the government's going to. keep, you know, big secrets from people, there's a tendency to just talk. I mean, for crying out loud, the New York Times, half the time the front page is made up. of of, you know, front page stories of. with nothing but anonymous sources, you. know, and and they can't be quoted or. they can't be identified because they're. not supposed to talk about it. Well, then don't [ __ ] talk about it. If. you've signed an agreement, if you've. signed a deal that says you're not going. to talk about something, you know, shut. your pie hole. Uh, or if you feel that.

strongly about it, get the [ __ ] out and. then talk about it, you know. What do. you How do you feel about guys like. Edward Snowden? Guys, is that funny? Yeah, it's funny. See, I. laugh when I get irritated. Is he. irritating? He's irritating to me. Yeah. Um well, you know, again, um you know, everyone's going to disagree over this. I'm a small government person, so I I. agree that you got to have checks and. balances. Um and and and I believe a. handful of things. One of them being is. that and people aren't going to believe. this because they watch a lot of movies. and beach books and [ __ ] and they down a.

lot of rabbit holes. But the US intel. community is the most transparent intel. community on the planet, right? I maybe. that sets the bar pretty low, you know, compared to other services, right? that's saying like you're the nicest. rapist ever. Right. Exactly. Geez, you're a great stalker. Um and uh so I. think that it's it's um for me, you. know, the idea that uh that Snowden had. um signed agreements and then chose to. do what he did um disappeared into uh.

into the PRC uh and then now is is is. over in in Russia. Um, and despite. people wanting to wave the flag and. saying he's a hero, uh, on a certain. level, uh, it's caused a great deal of. damage. And I think that if he was that. distraught over. this, then there were other avenues that. he could have pursued to um, to bring. this to light. And I think that what.

he's done is is very damaging. I. understand why people, you know, beat. the drum for him. I get that. Um, again, my opinion is based on certain life. experiences. So, you know, we're never. going to meet in the middle on this one. The importance for secrecy, things along. those lines, sticking to your word, what. the sort of damage that that some of. this uh information actually does out in. the field in terms of of of what that. means. Um, and so, yeah, again, I'm kind. of conflicted in a way because I agree.

You gota you got to keep things in. check, you know, and you gota and and. you've got to have um the ability to. understand what the government is doing. in in this regard. Um, I think that the. best way to do that is have a very um. inquisitive and proactive. um political base. Congress and Senate. should do their jobs. And part of it is, you know, there's a game that goes on in. Washington where every time something. like this comes out and it's politically. expedient for them to do so, they.

express outrage and angst and, oh my. god, I can't believe this is happening. There's a wellworn path between the. intel community and Capitol Hill with. people going up and briefing these. people all the time on Edward Snowden's. case, what he's talking about is them. spying on every single American. That's essentially what That's. essentially what it is. I mean, yeah. Don't you think that people have a right. to privacy if they're just innocent. folks that are taxpayers and they're not. breaking the law, they're not doing. anything? Sure. I think that there's. there there is that and I I don't.

disagree with that's why I say I'm. conflicted on on the on the whole issue. I'm conflicted as well because he did. actually pursue different avenues before. he released everything. Well, he says he. says he did. He says he did. Uh, no. There's a lot of uh characteristics of. Snowden that remind me of again of some. of the other characters that in the. counter intelligence uh world that we. dealt with that um. uh I I don't take everything just like. just like this character that we watched. on the on the video just like Michael. Yeah. I don't take what they say, you. know, for face value. No. Uh because.

you're willing to do a certain thing. then that makes me question your um your. your sort of your compass. And so, but. but yeah, I I the idea that uh you know, the government's collecting metadata. Now, admittedly, I could drive a big. [ __ ] truckload of metadata, dump it. here on our table, and you wouldn't know. [ __ ] about just metadata. But no, but. it's Oh, it's it's you know, then again, you look at Amazon and Google, look what. they're doing. Yeah, but he was saying. that people were actually going into. people's emails, extracting naked.

photographs, passing them around the. office. Yeah, that's that's Edward Snow. That's Edward Snowden saying that. I. again, we're going to have to we have to. fall down on that this this whole thing. that I I don't believe him saying that. Mhm. All the time I was involved in. things. I never saw behavior like that. And we dealt with NSA a fair amount and. on the technical collection side, right? Um so I don't buy that, but at the same. time, I understand, you know, you people. are going to believe a different thing. I I I think it's important for us to. have these conversations. I think it's. important for us to keep the government.

in check. I just think this is I. disagree with the way that he went about. doing it. I guess that's that's the best. thing, but I don't disagree with with. the fact that it's an important. conversation. I think he felt like he. had no recourse. Well, yeah. I mean, that so did Hansen when he started. spying for the [ __ ] Soviets, so you. know, that's always the case. I didn't. have any other choice. People weren't. listening to me. Oh my god, you know, I'm not getting the respect I deserve. It is funny. They all go to the Soviets, right? He's right over there chilling in. Russia. And they've got everything. these guys, you know, Glenn Greenwald.

and and Snowden, these guys, they they. all want to, you know, talk about how. no, we've we've safeguarded it. Well, if. they're smarter than the [ __ ] PRC and. the PLA out in China and smarter than. than the FSB and in in Russia, then, you. know, winged monkeys on unicorns going. to fly out my ass. So, I just not buying. it. You you mean in terms of. safeguarding safe very important secret. information from counter intelligence. perspective all that [ __ ] that he's. walked out the door with is is in the. hands of the of of uh of of uh people. who don't have our interests at heart.

meaning not just what's been released. the concerns about the American people. about privacy but some other stuff that. is totally unrelated to privacy that is. very important right yeah that well that. can't be argued in my opinion that. that's very tricky I mean if if that is. the case and the data isn't secure and. can compromise people in the field and. all sorts of other things. But what. Americans their number one concern was. that this is what is an ongoing. situation like this the NSA uh the. facility that they're building in Utah.

where they're going to store all that. scares the [ __ ] out of people that every. single phone call they make is being. stored somewhere, every single email, every single text message, every pick. they send. Yeah. And and I think that, you know, there again, there's there's. ways to go about. um there's ways to go. We're supposed to. have checks and balances in place, but. no one even knew about this until this. guy came up. Yeah. Um I also uh don't. necessarily buy that one either. Uh how. about this? The the the CIA improperly.

hacked into Senate computers. Yeah, that. one is uh you got to kind of reverse. engineer that story. Um they had set up. a shared network system uh between uh. the Senate staffers who were busy. writing what took them over 5 years uh. and they had a preset agenda on on uh. the interrogation history of. interrogation by the agency. So it took. them over 5 years to write but during. the course of that they set up a shared. network shared system uh for the agency. and the Senate staffers who were writing. this thing to use. So, uh, at a certain. point it became clear through, um, the.

course of that process that Senate. staffers had, uh, acquired, uh, documentation that. they weren't supposed to have that was. above that their, uh, parameters, the. classification. How'd they get it? That. is what then what happened was on this. shared system, not in the Senate. computer system, nobody in the Senate is. arguing that it's a shared network that. was set up specifically for this process. of sharing documents. So uh the agency. ran what is basically a forensic uh.

effort a keyword and phrase search. happens every day. I've got a company. diligence for all your information and. security needs that you know we've got a. computer forensics group. So keyword. phrase search is is a standard forensic. tool. So they went through that to try. to figure out how did this document and. did others go walk about. So that's what. that whole uh hoo-ha was about. But. again, it it points. to even at that level, even with a. Senate Intel Committee where which, you. know, um again, they've got the ability if.

they would use it, if they would stay. inquisitive, if they would stay uh. proactive, um they've got the ability to. pursue things, but there's a a level of. of uh of distrust sometimes that goes. on. And it kind of comes back around to. this whole transparency issue. Um you conspiracy, I don't know. There's. there's always been and I keep going. back to that same thing. You asked me. that question at the very beginning. which which was terrific which you know. what's the number one misconception? Oh. the agency out to [ __ ] us all. So your. take on it was just that the CIA was. trying to figure out how the Senate.

acquired these documents that they were. not supposed to be in possession. The. point of their exercise was from a. counter intelligence perspective. You. then you have to start figuring out what. else has walked out the door. And what. the Senate interpreted it as was that I. guess the agency was pushing back in an. attempt to. um what I don't know stop the reporting. or the reporting had already gone out. This this massive report that they've. already written had gone out. It had. already gone out to the community for. for review. Uh had gone to the White.

House for review. So it's not as if they. were going to try to stop that flow of. information. They've already done that. They've already released it. Well, they. haven't released it to the to the uh the. public because they're now they're. waiting from the White House for a. review. So, I don't know. I you know, there's the the agency has a long. history of uh of being a lightning rod. for things because of the nature of its. business. And that's understood. people who work.

inside the organization understand that. and and and I'm outside it. So I can. express a little frustration, but I. guarantee you when you're inside and. you're constantly uh being thrown out. there as you know an evil cabal or. selling drugs to uh low-income. neighborhoods or [ __ ] over, you know, everybody else or doing, you know, working against the interests as opposed. to White House delivers tasking and. says, "Get this done.". And the job of the agency is to march. forward regardless of who's in the.

administration. And it doesn't matter. whether it's President Obama or. President Bush, President Clinton, President. Carter, doesn't matter. They give you. the tasking, you do it. So when you see. a situation like this where Diane. Feinstein says that the CIA may have. violated the Constitution and they do. you think there's a lot of political. grandstanding going on? There's. political grand standing. Of course. there is. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I. mean, there's political grandstanding in. everything that goes on nowadays. I. mean, when they're making these big. speeches, it's like to set them up in a. position where it looks like they're. looking out for the American public when.

in reality, if they looked at the actual. circumstances and the actual facts. behind what had gone on, it would have. been far less. Or if in other cases. where they where they were expressing, "Oh my god, I can't believe this. interrogation program was doing this.". Well, [ __ ] that. We've got briefers. that, like I said, march back and forth. and back and forth and and and and. explain what's going on and answer. questions. I mean the agencies from the. church committee on and and and even. prior to that u you know there's there's. a long history of of sort of this this.

game that goes on. If I'm a politician. up on Capitol Hill and I get and and I. see that this is not going to look good. from you know my constituency back home. then I'm going to express surprise even. if I sat on that intel committee and. listened to what was going on or were. supposedly listening to what was going. on. So I again I'm not saying I don't. but I'm not saying the [ __ ] agency is. perfect and again I'm also not saying I. can be objective about it. That would be. I'd be lying if I said that. I'm I am. subjective. I got a great deal of. respect for them. My experiences with. them were extremely positive. I saw.

people stand up with really sound moral. compass and and always try to do the. right thing. Um so that's what I took. away from it. That's how I I I then. process all this other crap that that's. out there is noise. So, you know, if I'm. wrong and I die and I find out I'm. wrong, you know, well, [ __ ] me. So, I don't know what to. say. That's one way to look at it. Well, I can't imagine that it's possible to. know everything that's going on in any.

organization. I mean, you can't, no. matter what it is, if it's a police. department or if it's uh the CIA or the. FBI or the United States Army, every. general doesn't know about every single. action that every single s soldier is. involved in this. It's impossible. Well, it's like it's like going after. President Obama every time something. goes wrong, right? I don't necessarily. Yeah, it's it's convenient. Um but no, no president, whether it's him or. whether it's President Bush or whether. it's President Clinton, whoever, uh you. can't know everything. You got to you.

got to try to do your best to make sure. you don't get surprised. And then for. that, you got to rely on your on your. staff. And and I don't think saying that. you were surprised and and that you're. just finding out about it is a good. strategy necessarily. Uh but at the same. time, you can't be expected to know. everything. Do you feel like that what's. going on like the Wikileaks thing and. the artist formerly known as Bradley. Manning, now Chelsea Manning? Chelsea. Manning. You have to say Chelsea. Um her. uh do you do you feel like that's in the. same league as Edward Snowden? Is one. better and one worse because one was a.

soldier? No, you're you're that's a. really it's a really good question. Um I I I'm you know what I Nobody ever. accused me of being a deep thinker. So. my my feeling about it is um the. commonality there is that you you. initially um agreed to um keep your. mouth shut. keep your mouth shut to. protect um the information that you were. um given responsibility for having. access to and to do your your your job.

Um I think if you sign up to. commitments, if you make a promise, if. you sign that promise, that contract, um. then you you got to stick with it. And. uh and if you if you decide at some. point that you can't because you're just. so [ __ ] morally opposed to it, then. you know, man up and find a way to to do. it properly. Don't uh don't don't break. the [ __ ] law. Don't go to the Soviets. or the Russians. I call them the Soviets. still. Yeah. You know, don't go to the.

Russians. Don't go to the Chinese. Don't, you know, don't go to our our. those people who again don't have our. interest in heart and uh and try to. claim that you're doing it for the good. of of all mankind. Yeah, that doesn't. make any sense. What do you think they. could do, though? I mean, what does. someone do if they feel like they're. being ignored and they're on the inside. and they they honestly feel like some. horrible things are happening and they. have no recourse? Well, you know what? I. it's it's uh if. you if you believe in the justice. system, who knows what I what you know. what I you know, kids if if you find.

yourself in this position at home. Well, it's a weird thing is a guy like Julian. Assange cuz he's not even American, you. know? Yeah, he's he's locked up in jail. and he's in an embassy supposedly for I. thought he was coming out. Yeah, I. thought he was coming out to face the I. thought he was last I heard he was he. was coming out to to face the the. charges of the of the sexual assault. Well, he's sick. He's not doing well. healthwise. It's not good to not have. any son for two [ __ ] years. Well, I. know locked in. I've been in embassies.

I wouldn't want to spend two years in. there. Um yeah, but I I I think it's. it's um you know what? Again, I easy I. guess easy to say when you're not in. that position, but at the same time, um again, it's it's just my opinion, you. know, don't don't [ __ ] break your. covenants. Don't break the law. Um find. a way to to to do it. And if you can't. Yeah. And if you can't just deal with. it, just deal with it. Walk out. You got. to leave. Go find yourself something. else to do. Get yourself a job that you. can be happy with, you know. But, you.

know, I'm sure there's people out there. right now screaming, "Oh my god, well, you got to bring it up." Well, then. level though. At what level can the. crimes be? I mean, what if you found out. like let's get let's go deep. Like what. if you found out that there was some. sort of a false flag operation that was. going to result in a death of a bunch of. American lives, including American. servicemen, including American PE, you. know, officers and and enlisted folks. I. mean, if you found out something along. those lines, that's a that's a that's a. that's a thriller movie concept, but. yeah, it's and there's never the ticking.

time bomb scenario. I mean, by the way, that's that was never a good defense of. of sort of like the interrogation. program, the ticking time bomb, you. know, that always saying, "Well, I've. got 5 seconds, so therefore I've got to. hit this guy over the head with a car. battery." Um, but um you almost always. have more than 5 seconds. Um but um but. in that sort of a scenario, I mean, that. is a crime against the United States. Sure. Yeah. Then fine, then go out. there. It's not as if, you know, again, it's a hypothetical that doesn't make. any sense in the in the sense that what. am I going to do? I'm worried that I'm. going to go and I'm going to tell my.

superiors and it's all a cabal and. they're all working together and the. whole organization's going to suddenly. and I'm the one who's going to be [ __ ]. and next thing I know I'm being chased. to the basement of the organization by. all these people and it's a cabal. No, I. mean you know if you find out that that. that there's something there's one thing. to say I I you know I haven't seen any. indication of of uh of breaking the law. but morally I don't know this bothers. me. That's different. If you find you. know then then okay then that's one case. you got to deal with. If you find a case. where there's something illegal going. on, well then fine. If I bring it to. light immediately, there's no other.

choice. I mean, it's like I used to tell. my guys, you know, you make a mistake, you do something wrong, you know, tell. me immediately and and and and you know, that's the way that you resolve. problems. That's how you fix things. That's how you make sure that that that. things don't go off the rails. Um, and. the agency does operate under that that. you know, again, people aren't going to. buy it. But, you know, I saw it time and. time again. Somebody would make a. mistake, someone would make a bad. decision, and and the first thing they. would did was a march in, they would. tell their their supervisor, chief of. station, or whoever it was, and you. know, there's there's that type of.

culture in there again, but people. aren't going to buy I mean, that's. Wasn't that the whole issue that the. artist formerly known as Bradley Manning. faced is that there was nothing that he. could do or she could do now that was. being taken seriously. So, she went. public with all that information because. no one was listening. Well, they have uh. yeah, they have IG uh office, JAG. office. They have a lot of avenues that. they can go to that wouldn't be walking. into your immediate supervisor in the.

military. Um because yeah, sure, maybe. that's not the the best thing to do. Maybe you're concerned it's all, you. know, I I I'm going to be, you know, punished for stepping out of line. Well, they have practices in place that you go. to just like in a a corporation. Got a. compliance officers, you got, you know, ombbudsman, whatever you want to call. it. So, I I don't know. Again, I you. know, I'm not smart enough to to uh be. able to address issues like that. But, um, I do think if you make promises and. you, um, you agree to, uh, to protect.

and and serve the interests of the. United States, um, don't break the [ __ ] law. Well, don't don't break your oath. That's your. right. Don't break your oath. This is. what you're dealing with when you're. dealing with any agency or the military. You're dealing with a a group that. you've agreed to be a part of. It's a. sacred oath that you've taken. It's very. important that you keep that oath. And. isn't what we're seeing with all these. leaks and all this different stuff sort. of a a it's also it's an excellent.

example of the the times that we live in. that it it when you're dealing with. something so sensitive and so difficult, it's very it's very hard to get people. to just keep their mouth shut now, right? And and no, that's they used to. be able to hide these things. That's a. really good point. And part of it is. again part of it is all the anonymous. quotes in uh in in the newspapers and. often times attributed to senior. military officials, senior. administration officials. Part of it is. the books that get written, you know, the sort of the um the idea that I'm. going to finish up as um whatever.

chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. and I'm going to write a book, you know, and that that filters down to the to the. uh you know, the junior officers. They. see that or people in in the. organizations and they see that and they. think, well, what the hell? What's. what's sacred then? you know, you you're. going to get out after 30 years and. you're going to talk about all the, you. know, the various things that, you know, were done and and you're going to going. to give a mayor a culp over a couple of. things and you're going to talk about. [ __ ] that you, you know, all that time. you knew you weren't supposed to talk. about. So, it's um yeah, I think there. is a there's a there's a slide there in. the in the sort of the uh cultural.

understanding of what is and isn't um. acceptable. So, what you're talking. about, you keep saying the New York. Times and you're talking about uh. unnamed quotes and unnamed sources. You're talking about this James Ryzen. case where this uh guy is detailing a. bot CIA operation in Iran and they're. trying to uh trying to get his sources. Well, no, not not just that. You can't. swing at the cat on most days without. hitting a major newspaper that's dealing. with anonymous sources. I mean, they. just, you know, it's it's I'm just.

talking about in terms of all the. general uh use of I mean, remember that. I don't think you could in the past, I. don't think you could write a major. story if you had more than one anonymous. source. maybe you couldn't even have an. anonymous source, but now it's just it's. an accepted fact. And I guess the point. being is that, you know, people just. feel more comfortable um speaking out of. turn and that filters down to all the. younger members of whatever organization. it may be, whether it's a company, whether it's a hedge fund, whether it's. the agency, a military, whatever it may. be. So, you feel like in the case of. this rising guy who's he's in deep [ __ ].

right? I mean, he's he's um I mean, the. Supreme Court just rejected his appeal. Um his refusal to uh identify a source. And what he's done is write a book based. on some information that allegedly. someone from the CIA gave him. The. Supreme Court saying, "Look, you got to. give up that information. You got to say. who told you this stuff because that's. more important than the freedom of the. press, right? Protection of the of the. source." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. again,

you know, um I I don't even know where to go with. that. That's like that's like one of. those meet the press sort of issues that. no one's ever going to call me on. Uh. well, the play devil's advocate, one way. to look at it is it's not like New York. Times uh reporters have been infallible. It's not like they haven't been accused. of plagiarism. It's not like they. haven't bullshitted before. And if this. guy wrote a book and the book was based. on unfactual or e either lies or.

fabricated information, it is possible. Is it possible that you could meet. behind closed doors and do that where it. doesn't have to go public? Well, you. would you would think so, right? I mean, it's not like judges, right? It can't be. the first time they'd need to find a. mechanism for something like this, you. know, just like with with testimony up. on the hill on Capitol Hill. I mean, it's not it's never the first time any. of that crap happened. So, they must. have some sort of protocol in place, you. would think. Um, but perhaps there's a. political element here to, you know, beating it out in public. I I don't. know. It's that is a very interesting.

situation when it comes to protecting. sources. It's like it's it would almost. be if we had a lie detector test, like. an infallible lie detector test where. you can say, did these sources actually. tell you this information? Were these. sources really CIA deep undercover. operatives? Were they legit people? And. you know, and then the guy it it turns. out he's lying. Well, then you throw the. book at him. But if he's telling the. truth, then it seems like the onus is. almost on the CIA. Well, yeah. Um. although I wouldn't put a lot I.

mean Yeah. I mean, not not to get in the. weeds, but yeah, the polygraph is not. necessarily it's it's a it's an art. It's not a science. Yeah. It's not ready. yet. So, do you think this is sort of a. battle between the idea of protecting. sources and the idea of protecting. America? That these two things, maybe. the oath that a person takes is equally. important as the laws that are in place. to protect sources and this is just. duking it out to see which one holds. precedent. What's more significant in. terms of the repercussions on the. American people? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I.

think I I could see where a journalist. would would hold this up as an example. of saying this is the same thing. There's not you can't argue the. difference, right? Um, is there um is. there a national security uh element to. this that takes precedence over uh a. journalist's right to you know publish. something and not disclose the source? I. you know that's a court decision. What. what do I know? I mean why you know. again no one's going to ask me for my. opinion on that but I can see where I. can see where people could draw the. comparison and try to try to argue one. side or the other frankly. Um I think if. there is a legitimate national security.

issue you got to weigh in on that side. of it. Yes. Um but um that could also be. abused. No dou no doubt. So, you have to. be careful about it. Yeah. Isn't that. the deal? I mean, that's the the issue. that we have with law enforcement, with. everything. You're dealing with the. human element. You know, I'm a big fan. of law enforcement. I take a lot of [ __ ]. from people for saying that because. whenever someone says we shouldn't have. cops, we should I'm like, I know bad. people. I've met bad people. You're. [ __ ] crazy. When people say that we. shouldn't have military in your utopian. world and the world would be beautiful. and charming and everybody be growing. flowers out of their ass. Yeah, that.

would be nice. But that's not the world. Look at what's going on with ISIS right. now in Syria. Anybody who doesn't think. that you need military to deal with. people like that, you're [ __ ] crazy. Yeah. No, I' I've spent a lot of time in. in very uh unusual and hostile. environments where there's no rule of. law. There's no uh and it's it's it's. not a place people want to be. Um and so. I agree with you and that's and that's. also part of the the perspective that. it's just a massive ignorance of human. history. I mean, human history and human. motivations. If you look at the. potential and if you look at the.

possible future of humanity once we. evolve past where we are now, you have a. thousand years from now, 10,000 years, hopefully a hundred, maybe a decade, who. knows? But the reality of right now, if. you look at the rest of the world, look. at what's going on with Israel and Gaza. right now. Anybody who thinks you you. shouldn't have some sort of method of. protection, some sort of method of in. intelligence, information, and ability. to operate militarily, they're crazy. Right. Right. And I I don't know that. human uh uh behavior is ever going to. change. I mean, technology adjusts and.

and so we end up doing things. differently because of technology and. and what that means to us, but I I don't. know that I don't think we're ever going. to evolve beyond this where we're all. just a bunch of But don't you think we. have from the time we were apes? I mean, we've kind of gotten a little bit. better. This talking about I know some. guys that haven't. Don't talk about Al. Sharpton that way, man. Oh. Oh, how dare. you. Oh, you you walked me into that. trap, didn't you? I just I feel like um this is probably. at least in America this as [ __ ] up as. it is. This is probably the safest time.

ever for people. I really do believe. that as far as violent crime, as far as. worried about being attacked by another. country, I think it's probably the. safest time ever. And I would hope that. that trend would continue and that this. would continue all across the world and. that human beings would slowly but. surely sort out all their [ __ ] and. figure out a way to have a cohesive nice. civilized world that we could all live. in. Yeah. Not in our lifetime. But um. but it it's nice to think about. It's.

just I I just I'm not. It's a long process like evolution. almost. Yeah. I've seen some some some, you know, folks do some pretty, you. know, uh uh iffy things out there. I'm. sure you have. Yeah. And so I think that. um I'm not as optimistic that that um. that we, you know, that human nature. will change. Um I think that it's. possible. Um, but I think that, uh, oftentimes we, you know, I get asked. this question all the time from, uh, from folks that are, uh, trying to.

manage security, uh, you know, work on. crisis management, that sort of thing. for their companies, for their families, whatever it may be. And, um, you know, I'm not one of those preppers. I'm not. one of those people who thinks, "Oh my. god, it's all going to fall apart and. we're going to be dealing with zombies.". Although that that would be interesting. Um, I don't think that would be fun at. all. Yeah, it wouldn't be fun. I mean, unless you got a lot of gear. You got a. lot of gear. What kind of shitty life is. that? Oh, I know. I know. That's Well, yeah. Well, that's why we got that Idaho. compound. No, I'm I'm kidding. Depends. on what kind of zombies you're dealing.

with. Yeah. You don't want the ones that. move fast. I never understood that. Right. The fastmoving zombies doesn't. make any sense. 28 Days Later zombies. are scary as [ __ ] Yeah. You know, my my. daughter who's fantastic. She's in. college. She loves zombie movies. She. refuses to watch 28 Days Later because. it freaks her out. And so anyway, uh but. I I think that um you know this idea one. of the biggest crisis we we actually do. face in in the in the short midterm is. is to our power grid. So as an example. of what what I mean by human nature um I. lived in New Kanan in Connecticut. It's.

it's it's a very nice little town in. Fairfield County in uh when I was. working out of my uh New York office. And one of the things I didn't know. about Newka was if you buy a house. there, then you have to assume that in. town you'll lose power at least every. week during winter because everything's. above lines uh above ground. And so one. time after about a year there, I didn't. have any uh generators. I'm not smart. I'm not a handy guy. And so my wife. looks at me and says, "Are you ever. going to go out and buy a generator for. us?" Because we're the only one on the. block that doesn't have a generator. So. the power goes out for three or four.

days and in winter time it's pretty damn. cold. First night it's fun, right? The. kids are all, you know, I got three boys. and scooter, Sluggo, and Mugsy and they. love a camp out. So first night's great. Second night it's it's everybody's. freezing their ass off. So it took me. the first winter to figure out I should. go out and get a generator. We had a we. had a power failure. So, I went to uh. Home Depot and I went in there and I. watched a fight break out in in a very. affluent county of of of America uh when. the power had really only been out for. probably about 36 hours at that point.

And I watched a fight break out of one. of the last generators apparently that. was available. I mean, I literally just. walked up on this scene and and there. were people all masked up and they've. been handing out numbers and trying to. get everybody in order in line and and I. looked at this thing and I thought, "Good God." So then I I found the. manager and gave him a 100 bucks and got. the last. generator. So that's field expediency. right there, kids. And um it only cost. 100 bucks on top of the other uh on top. of the cost of the thing. So um and then. then I proceeded and to show you how.

handy I am, I proceeded to take it home. and run the thing. We had power. It was. fantastic. I ran the generator. Then I. didn't realize necessarily that it. needed oil. So you blew the generator. I. blew the generator and and that was that. was that was a happy day. Um, so my. point being is that if the grid goes. down, say we've only got three grids, uh, east, uh, west, and Texas, right, around this whole country of ours. And. these grids were never designed, they. were never built to withstand a. terrorist attack. That wasn't the point. And now, you know, the infrastructure is. getting old, and we're spending a lot of. money trying to harden the the the.

facilities and trying to improve and and. and provide more mobile generators. It's. a it's a major major issue in this. country. And you can imagine if the grid. goes out um or we lose power for say 2. months, everything that drives. transportation, um trading, banking, um. just general well-being of of society, how we all feel about ourselves every. day, uh water, then we got a problem. And so my feeling's always been I would. like to think that we'll see the best of.

ourselves uh during the course of. something like that. Maybe we will. Uh, but I I sometimes I I sometimes I find. myself being a little bit more cynical. than that. It depends entirely on the. desperation. If there's no food, you're. not going to see the best in people. There's no water, you're not going to. see the best in people. Well, you know, people can bond together if they feel. like there's a light at the end of the. tunnel. The real problem is when there's. no light. When there's no light or or. there's a brighter light over there than. what you got or they feel like they can. get away with carving their own light. Yeah. Yeah. At your expense. That that.

that is a real issue with human nature. Desperation is a scary thing. Those. preppers freak me the [ __ ] out, man. Because some of them, it's like almost. like they want it to go bad so that they. could use all their canned food. You got. to rotate that [ __ ] Just like you got. to rotate your ammunition. You got to. rotate your canned food. So, don't. forget that when you're dealing with. your two-year supply. Yeah. Um, but no, I agree with you. Uh, anyway, I I don't. know where I was going down that rabbit. hole. Well, you're talking about we were. talking about zombies in your Idaho. compound and Sluggo and Mugsy. Is that. really your kids' names? Uh, basically.

H that's the nicknames, but I don't. think they know their real names at this. point. So, uh Sluggo just started. kindergarten uh the other day and uh. that was exciting all the way around. because he uh uh you know the the the. oldest one like a lot of kids I I don't. actually I never mind. I don't want to. get started talking about my kids. People are like tuning out right now. He's talking about his kids. Well, people like they don't mind talking. about kids, but this it's an issue that. everybody has that has children. You. worry about the future. you worry about, you know, not just the future because.

of, you know, [ __ ] that's going on. overseas, but just natural disasters, things that could happen that could wipe. out the grid, you know, asteroidal. impacts, etc., you know what I worry. about too? I all those things. I mean, all the potential pandemic, you know, even whatever it is, but I tell you what. I spend more time worrying about because. I think it's actually more likely or or. possible is. um most of my time was spent overseas. most of my, you know, young and then. adult life and and and you could travel.

to the darkest places out there, the. deepest darkest places out there, and. you would find somebody who would think, you know, if I could just get to America. then and I and I work hard, then I can. do I can do better. And they honestly. believe that. And people over here used. to believe that. I'm sure a lot of. people still do. We got great people. But I I do worry about the erosion of. that concept of of America being a place. where they were very fortunate. Um, and. you know, and I understand, you know, some more fortunate than than a lot of. others, and I I you know, that's. obvious, but as a country, I I worry.

more about the erosion of our belief in. ourselves and our ability to do great. things, you know? I mean, think about. what we the space program, for [ __ ]. sake, we put duct tape on a rocket ship. and, you know, took it to the moon and. back. I mean, we did [ __ ] And now we're. we're begging the Russians for a ride to. the space station. And the Russians are. saying, "Fuck you. You know, we don't. like your stance on Ukraine, so you. can't go to space." I I don't know. I. don't I think it's ridiculous to cancel. that. This when they canceled the space.

shuttle, but they were keeping up the. space station. I was like, "What?" Yeah. What's that all about? Yeah, that sounds. like the most ridiculous [ __ ] ever. It's. like we're going to have a house in the. Hamptons, but we're going to give away. our car. Like, do you have a house in. the Hampton? No, I don't. But I mean, if. you did, I mean, where the [ __ ] How you. going to get it? It's nice out there. Yeah, a lot of deer though. You hit your. car with them. A lot of deer. It's How. How the [ __ ] do they expect to get out. there? It just seems to me to be so. ridiculous that they stopped the space. shuttle program. Well, we want to live. in a community of nations. I mean, maybe. I mean, some people want to live.

in a community of nations. That's a. lovely ideal just like human nature is. going to evolve and we're all going to, you know, like you said, have flowers at. our ass. I don't know what that gets us. having flowers out of our ass, but it it. u I I think that, you know, there's a. there's the reality which is that if you. don't have somebody at the top, if you. don't have a if you don't and and during. the Cold War, you know, we had this this. bipolar situation with us and the. Soviets, and that worked, right? As long. as there was a balance of power, a. physical balance of power. Um, but if. you don't have somebody at the top of. the food chain, you're going to get kind.

of where we're going, which is chaos and. people looking to fill that void. And. we're not going to be happy with it. And. if you're not in charge, then you're. looking at somebody's ass in line, right? And that, you know, if we're. happy with that and we're happy with the. ensuing, you know, potential chaos that. that that brings, then fine, let's just. admit it. Let's say that's where we're. going with all this. You know, we we we. want to be average. But I don't I don't. believe that's the case with this. country. And I I don't know. I know what. you're saying. you know, you're a. patriotic guy and you're looking at the. the situation at hand and it's uh it's. very uncomfortable. And I think that the.

reality of what's going on, the foreign. crisis, whether it's what's going on in. the Ukraine or what's happening right. now in Iraq, this massive power vacuum. that's being filled by ISIS and these. militant jihadists, and somebody, if. somebody's going to be at the top, better the United States than ISIS. Yeah. No, absolutely. And you know what, honestly, and that's and that's I guess. maybe that's what I'm trying to say, but. I'm not saying it very well, is that I. have a great uh deal of faith in the US, no matter which administration's in. charge. Again, I don't I don't like to.

think I have a dog in the hunt. As long. as people are working hard and doing. trying to do the right thing, whether. it's this administration, previous. administration, whichever one, I got a. lot of faith in the ability of of or or. the desire of this country to do the. right thing. Sometimes we don't do it. and it takes us a while to course. correct. uh sometimes longer than we. should, but I do believe that we and. that's something I took away from the. time with with with the government. We. try to do the right thing. So, I don't. know. I believe you. I believe you. And. I think you're a noble guy. I mean, when. you're saying this to me, I I don't. think you're bullshitting at all. No.

What I worry most about when it comes to. the United States, when it comes to the. the future and the direction of things, is the influences that politicians have. that are not in the best interest of. Americans. That to me is one of the. scariest things. The the influences of. corporations that only look at things in. terms of how much money they can extract. from X or Y. Which one is going to be. more profitable profitable for them? Let's go with Y. We're going to make. more money. [ __ ] the American people. And that politicians tend to lean.

towards that because those are the very. people that put them in office in the. first place. They're beholden to them. once they get in there. Right? that I. think is one of the biggest threats the. the fear that people have of money. overpowering the greater good of the the. the actual citizens of the United. States. Yeah, I think you're I think. you're absolutely right and that's to. that I would say what I always say which. I've been beating on this stupid drum. for a while is term limits. I don't. think we get big brave decisions in. Washington anymore until we get term. limits. If we take the this this system,

which quite frankly the founding fathers. never imagined that anybody in their. right mind would want to stay in. Washington for 36 years, you know, who. would want to do that in their mind? So, they didn't put that in there and and. and that's the one thing I think that. would make a difference. You know, give. congressman two four-year terms, give. senators two six-year terms and get the. [ __ ] out, right? And and and rotate. that. We got some great people in this. country that could uh step up and be. terrific leaders if given the. opportunity and if we didn't have to pay. a couple hundred million dollars every.

time we wanted to run a campaign. So put. finance limits that actually mean. something in there and and bring that. down. If you can't get your point across. in a congre congressional or senate. campaign for say you know a million. dollars, $2 million for then you're a. [ __ ] [ __ ] How can you how can that. not work? And you and you can only run. your campaign for a certain period of. time. How difficult is that? So, I mean, the states tried it. Individual states. tried to do that and then the Supreme. Court shut it down and said, "Oh, states. can't determine the, you know, the term. limits for federal positions, which to. me, I I still don't quite get that. But.

I I agree with you. But I think that one. step we could be taking to try to get. that influence of money out of politics. in a meaningful way is is term limits. Get some rotation in there. Get some. fresh blood in there so that you don't. have people sitting there." And people. and these guys will say, "Well, you got. to It takes a long time to understand. how Washington works." Well, you know, maybe if you're a [ __ ] but. Washington's a pretty straightforward. place at the end of the day. And if you. can't figure out the legislative process. in 6 months, you're an idiot. You. shouldn't be there. So, that that's. where I I'm I'll step off my soap box.

now. Do you think that do you think that. term limits would be circumvented the. same way they've kind of been with the. president where they just there's so. much massive money and influence that. they essentially the two-party system is. controlled by virtually the same. corporations in the first place? Well, you know what? I'm not saying that they. wouldn't figure out a way to try to gain. the system at some point, but it' be. more difficult. It would be much more. difficult if suddenly if I'm a. corporation and I know that somebody's. going to be on the ways and means. committee for the next 24 years, then I.

know what I'm going to do. I know how. I'm going to try to influence that. position and how I'm going to, you know, kind of work that that from a lobbying. position. Um, if you're only there for. two terms, I got to change my game plan. I'm not gonna invest all my time and. effort and resources into into this. person. I'm going to think of it and and. you know what? It's worth I guess my. point is it's worth a try. Is any system. going to be perfect? Well, no. Of course. not. Um and but the way that it's. working right now, all I know is we got. a city full of dysfunctional people who. are I mean the congressmen are are. trying to run for election basically.

constantly. A two-year term means you're. constantly trying to raise money. And. that's not the way it should be. And. that's most of their time, too. Most of. their time is is fundraising. literally. 80% of the time that anyone who's. running for Congress, anyone who's. running for Senate, 80% of the time. you're trying to raise money, right? And. and and when you send good people there, then they get co-opted by the system. And and it must be extremely frustrating. for the people that go out there with. good intentions and then they realize I. got to spend all my time impressing, you. know, the uh the congressional. leadership with my fundraising prowess.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. The. situation is without a doubt [ __ ] up. Um you heard it here first. Without a. doubt. Um, are you do you get a sense by. paying attention to all this [ __ ] that's. going on overseas, whether it's what. what's happening in the Ukraine, what's. heating up in North Korea, what's going. on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you get a. sense that things are kind of like more. chaotic and more hectic now than they've. ever been before? Um, I don't know about. than they've ever been before. Certainly. in in my recent memory. Yeah. I I don't.

because I remember it used to be that. we' we'd have the issue, right? It was. the Balkans and the Balkans were a mess. they were a big stinking mess and and. and it was very violent. Um there was a. little lovely period of time where Haiti. was the only real big concern. Um we had. the cold war era and that was very. comforting for a lot of people because. you knew who the enemy was and you knew. what the how the game was played in a. sense. Um, and but right now with the. flash points that we've got, we've got. that I mean the Chinese are uh.

increasingly aggressive and in an effort. to try to retake the Pacific, which. they've always been pissed off that. we've really basically have owned since. World War II and the Russians, the. Middle East situation obviously. Um, yeah. Yeah, we I' I'd say it's more. chaotic now than it has been in recent. memory. I don't I don't think that's a. that's not a big statement. Is that what. happens? Is there just an eb and flow. when it comes to these sort of. situations when when it comes to like. what's going on in the world power. struggles then the power struggles are.

resolved and then new resistance builds. up. I mean is that in your experience. how things go? Well, I think you you. minimize the chaos by being consistent. And what do I mean by that is is it, you. know, as foreign policy as an example, if your foreign policy message is. consistent and uh and strong and clear. and there's no misunderstanding by. either your allies or the people that um. that are against us, uh then you can. minimize the chaos that exists. if it's.

not consistent and there's confusion. over where uh we stand and I'm saying we. because you know okay fine we're still. at the top of the of the food heap. whether people are comfortable with that. or not I don't know but um so if if. we're not consistent in that message. then there's confusion and that's where. you start to get problems because you. start to get people probing at the. perimeter trying to see what exactly is. going on what they can get away with we. start getting less leverage I mean you. know we're getting situation in the. Middle East now where countries are. acting completely without uh consulting.

uh with the US. You wouldn't have had. that 30 years ago. You know, it just. wouldn't have happened. Like what what. instances like Egypt? Well, yeah. Egypt. acting uh in in what they consider to be. their own best interest. The Saudis the. Saudis are enormously uh pissed off at. us still over over what they view as as. the current administration's failure to. um you know work with them to try to. resolve some issues out in the Middle. East. And they feel as if we've sort of. abdicated the responsibility. Now. whether we have or not, whether it's the. right thing to do or not, I'm I'm just. saying from a policy perspective, um you.

know, if what we want to do is be. isolationist, then be very clear about. that. Say this is all we're going to do. These are our parameters. That's it. So. everybody knows good. We're all good. with it. Fine. Get on with it. But you. know, the mixed messages are the. problem. I I mean that's you know, I. think that's uh so clear. So in in one. way being patriotic and being an. isolationist an isolationist in another. way meddling in foreign governments. sending out aid being part of their. political process all that jazz. Well I.

think that yeah exactly I mean saying. okay we we don't really want to be. involved here's a red line uh you pass. the red line. Okay fine we're going to. do something else over here. Um you know. we're going to pivot to Asia. You know I. don't mean to pick on the current. administration. I got a lot of respect. for some of the folks in there, but um. there's a you know there's there's a. lack I think of consistency and there's. certainly I think in in the sense of how. the Chinese are behaving, how the. Russians are behaving, how certain. countries in the Middle East are. currently behaving. I think it's an. indication that they don't necessarily.

believe we're engaged and and that. either worries them or delights them, you know, depending on what position. they hold. So, you know, and I don't. think we have the luxury of of. disengaging. You know, again, I I my my. experience has been when there's a. vacuum, you know, [ __ ] happens and Well, that's what we're seeing right now in. Iraq. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's one of the scariest times ever. for the folks who live there. And what. what we're seeing in terms of uh these. uh jihadist extremists, this is like. this is as ramped up as we've ever seen. it before. And this is a direct response.

to the power vacuum, right? Yeah. No, absolutely. And and you know, we can. argue, you know, all day long. Okay. You. know, should we have gone in, you know, should we have not have? Okay, fine. But. the situation is that it's [ __ ] up and. we got to deal. It is what it is right. now. Whether the 2001 decision was. correct or not is what it is. Right. Exactly. And so now we've got to deal. with it. Otherwise, we're going to pay a. big price for this. This is the first. time that they've gained this sort of. territorial integrity from an extremist. point of view. And they're consolidating. territory. They own an entire northern.

province in Syria and an additional. territory moving east and up through. Aleppo. Uh they're controlling uh border. posts uh along along the Golan Heights. They're controlling border porcelain. Turkey. Um, and they've moved obviously. into Iraq. Um, they're, you know, not. very far away. They could piss on. Baghdad at this point. And they're. consolidating that turf. And that's a. huge recruitment tool for them overseas, which is why we're seeing their numbers, you know, kind of grow exponentially at. this point is because they've got the. turf of this caliphate that they've been.

talking about for years and years. Finally, they got this physical vision. of this thing. They've got the resources. from overrunning the banks and the. various, you know, uh, military bases in. Syria and Iraq. I mean, good god, they've gotten their hands on multiple. divisions worth of gear. And so, it's. it's we're going to have to deal with. it. And somebody's got to put boots on. the ground, whether it's us or somebody. else. It'd be nice to see the Turks step. up because they got a lot to lose on. this one. It'd be nice to see the Turks. step up and and uh and get involved, but. somebody's got to put boots on the. ground cuz air strikes alone are not. going to cut it. Is this one of those.

situations too where it's difficult to. get people enthusiastic about engaging. because of all the years of war that. people disagreed with Iraq and. Afghanistan especially. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, but this is a much. more imminent threat. Well, it is, but. it's hard to explain that to people who. are fatigued. And I I understand that. 100%. I mean, you know, we're all tired. of the freaking war on terror. We're all. tired of Iraq. We're all tired of. Afghanistan. And I I understand that. Nobody wants to deal with it. just kind of wanting it to go away isn't. that's not a sound national security.

policy. What is the future? I mean, what. what what can be done to sort of. mitigate all this [ __ ] Well, the. problem is that we're now in a position. and I if we're just talking about uh. ISIS, the Islamic State, we're now in a. position where we got some pretty. strange bedfalls. Iran is is engaged. against them. Obviously, it's a Shiite. regime. They've been uh putting boots on. the ground in Iraq for some time now, trying to prop up Maliki, who's now. gone. uh Syria, Basher Assad has been, you know, authorizing air strikes in. there. So, in a sense, if we go into.

Syria, you know, and and try to kick. some ass with ISIS, we're on the side of. the Iranians and Assad, and this White. House is really, really unlikely to want. to be seen in in in the public eye as. taking sides with Assad. So, this is. probably the most complex situation. they've got going right now is how to do. this. Um, and that's why I say that the. the best way to go about it is to. strongarm, if necessary, uh, the Turks, uh, Jordanians, Saudis, to the degree we. can. We don't have much leverage with. the Saudis anymore. Um, to try to get.

them on board, get an allied force in. there because we can do it. It's not. like we can't, you know, uh, defeat. them. We just don't have a strategy for. doing it right now. We got a strategy to. contain them. Yeah. I'm not necessarily. the biggest Obama fan, but man has this. [ __ ] guy walked into a hornets's nest. from the moment he got into the White. House. I mean, talk about a chaotic. eight years. Right. Right. No, absolutely. And and and they walked in. without really, I think, appreciating. how bad it could be, obviously. Uh and. walking in also with not as much.

interest in the international scene as. in, you know, doing some domestic. changes. Well, I remember when he was. debating McCain and he was talking about. going into Afghanistan and that we we'll. just go in and take care of things and. McCain was like, "Do you even [ __ ]. know what Afghanistan is? Do you. understand how it works?" I remember. when McCain said that that place has. operated essentially the same way since. Alexander the Great. Like, do do you are. you do you recognize that it's not you. can't just go in there, right? It's it's. it's it's the definition. It's it's it's.

like Libya. Libya is a hot mess right. now. By the way, nobody's focusing on. Libya. They they've just the the the uh. the extremists have just taken over the. airport in Tripoli. Basically, they they. they have taken over the country. There's almost nothing related to sort. of a pseudo federal government running. Libya anymore. It's a it's a disaster, but we can only focus on one thing at a. time apparently. So, you know, right now. we're looking at ISIS, but I think uh. you look at Afghanistan and that's. that's a perfect example. We didn't need. another case study. We got a case study. of what the Russians did. We spent a lot. of time I was in there when when we were.

trying to get the Soviets out. We spent. a lot of time trying to push them out. and they went through the same process. we did after 5 years. They were just. trying to get the [ __ ] out of there. They already realized it was a failure. situation to try and and so what did. they do? They retreated to the urban. centers. That's what we did. They. couldn't figure out how to get a. government that would stay in place. after they left. The same problem we're. having all this. So we know that they. went through. Um, I had one of my first. hires uh in diligence uh for all your. information and security needs was uh. former uh uh military intelligence.

officer. He's a former tank driver too. for the Russian military. And u he told. me he grabbed me. I remember as we went. into uh into Bora and uh he said, you. know, don't stay. You can't stay there. Said they're like cockroaches. You step. on them here, they show up over there. Don't stay. He was still carrying around. shrapnel from in the time of the Soviet. occupation of Afghanistan. We didn't. need uh to go all the way back through. history to understand how this was not. going to work. And I I hate to say this.

and it does not I'm not I'm not doing. any disservice to the terrific men and. women who have served over there, lost. their lives, been. wounded, the Taliban have no place to. go. It's like the Vietkong. Where do we. think they're going to go? So once we're. finished there, when they take back. over, we shouldn't be that surprised. So. I I I'm not an optimistic guy. We did a. brilliant tactical mission there. But by. the spring of 2002, we should have. walked out the door. Said, "If you do. this again, if you allow your place to.

be used to uh reach out to the west or. come back and kill more of you, but we. nation building, I don't give a [ __ ]. whether we raise their literacy rate by. 2 or 3% or build another road. They. don't know what we're trying to sell. them. Never have." So that's I'm I'm. very frustrated with it. The Afghan. policy is is very enormously. frustrating. It seems incredibly. frustrating. But what could be done? Is. there a way to handle it better? I mean, what what could be done? Well, once. again, I mean, we're in that category. where you kind of you you broke it. You. know, we're kind of it's ours. Um, you.

know, we can argue about the wisdom of. what we did, but you're right. I mean, now you got to look at it from a. practical point of view. Um, frankly, uh, anything we do in Afghanistan is. sort of like a a holding, uh, enterprise, right? So the as long as we. stay there we can maintain some. semblance of not a [ __ ] storm. Uh once. we leave then it it degenerates. So I I. you know I think anything we do there is. is simply a containment exercise. So.

does it just become the United States of. Afghanistan and we take over and just. fund it all on the poppy seeds and the. [ __ ] minerals in the in the. mountains? This goes back to that whole. narcotics thing, right? Listen, hold on. a second. But it's important. Look, I. mean, if you really do think about what. what the scenario is over there, 90% of. the world's opium comes from there, and. there's a massive amount of lithium and. ion and minerals in the mountains. What. What the [ __ ] else can anybody do other. than try to figure out one way to fund. staying there? Yeah. No, it's it's it's.

a it's a one of the most unsatisfying. discussions you can ever have is is what. do we do? There's no good answer. There's no good answer. Leaving sucks. Staying sucks. Both of them suck, right? And and and again, we're having this. discussion in public that where public. is entirely, you know, rightfully so, fatigued with this whole thing. Not just. fatigued, but ignorant, right? I mean, I'm I'm ignorant of it. I've read quite. a bit about it, but I guarantee you I'm. ignorant. I mean, if I was over there, I'd probably have a better. understanding. If I was over there for a. decade, maybe I would scratch the. surface. But yeah, no, that's true.

That's Yeah, I see what you mean. But. it's um but yeah, we we got a lot of. flash points right now. We got a lot of. big issues that are that are happening. and um you know now we've got the. midterm elections coming up so I don't. think anything nothing big in a way is. going to happen in Washington. Do you. think any of this could have been. avoided by not going into Iraq and not. going into Afghanistan or was that kind. of [ __ ] inevitable anyway? Because with. all this with having a ruthless dictator. like Saddam Hussein that's no picnic. having a guy like that running a country.

with his evil [ __ ] sociopathic serial. killer sons. I mean that guy was a. ruthless piece of [ __ ] right. No, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, people say, "Well, we should have left him in. place." Well, you know what? The mindset. at the time, and people have you have a. hard time remembering going back to what. it was like right after 9/11. People. thought [ __ ] was going to happen every. single [ __ ] hour. And, you know, it. got it got overrun with the neocons. No. doubt about that. They, you know, they. had an agenda. They had a plan that. there, this is what they were going to. do. Um, now there was also, and I do. know this, there was also agreement from.

a lot of allies that this was a problem. that had to be dealt with. So, it wasn't. just the US saying, "We're going to rush. in there." You know, because that's a. conspiracy. Oh, we're going to go in. there because we're going to get their. oil. Really? Well, um there were a lot of allies that were. believing that. And and unfortunately, and this goes to show you how you got to. you got to be very careful about your. intelligence operations. A lot of it was. based on just crap, [ __ ] you know, and and and but but the time at the. time, the way that we thought and the. and the fear that existed and and the.

way that people said we whatever it. takes to protect the homeland, even if. that means, you know, going into Iraq, you know, because that's going to be the. next flash point. Um, so I'm not I'm not. one to say you got to second guess, you. know, decisions that that happened in. the past because, yeah, it's a complete. waste of [ __ ] breath. I mean I guess. you you obviously you can learn things. from it but um more to your point which. is a much more important question is. what do you do about it now? What what. no one has a good solution. No one has. no one is standing up on top of a soap.

box saying this is what needs to be. done. If we do this, we're going to have. peace on earth. Right. No. And you're. right. You know, the Republicans are. beating the Democrats, you know, over. the head saying, "Ah, you got but the. Republicans, you know, come up come up. with a decision. Come up with an idea. Imagine if you know, I mean, I'm not I'm. not a fan again of Obama. Could you. imagine if [ __ ] Sarah Palin was the. goddamn vice president of the United. States right now, how the world would be. looking at us?" Well, that's why I say, you know, another thing I think is I go. back to term limits and finance reform. is, you know, I think we get a lot of we. get a deeper pool of potential. candidates and we'd surprise ourselves.

with how many really good, smart, uh, dynamic people are out there who might. be willing to step in u if they didn't. have to go through this insane political. process. So, yeah, what do I know? What. do I know? Yeah, I don't even know how. we got on the subject. I don't know. I. look at this. It's it's uh it's. Wednesday. It's uh Wednesday evening. Let's talk about your show, man. But it. used to be called America Declassified. What are you guys going to call it now? Now it's going to be called World. Access. World Access. We're almost. finished filming episodes. We've been. all over the country. A great country.

Uh seeing terrific sites, talking to. really cool people. Um exploring things, doing [ __ ] Uh chasing Burmese python. down in the Everglades. Uh roping in the. in the glacial ice caves up in Alaska. Uh tracking grizzlies in in a beautiful. Yellowstone Park. If people haven't been. to Yellowstone, oh my god, incredible. It's incredible. And uh you gota you. could do yourself a favor and go explode. though and kill everybody. So So get. there before that happens before the end. of the world. That might be where it. starts. Yeah. Idaho be blown off the map.

if that happens. But um so will. California. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But we. So it's it's going to air in the late. fall. Uh World Access, it's it's it's uh. the production companies Indigo Films. out of San Francisco and Los Angeles. a. great bunch of people uh with it's on. the Travel Channel and uh that's all I. can think to say. That's clever. What. was it like when you had to investigate. Area 51? Was that a a hornets nest of. Looney Tunes thinking that there's. aliens that are pickled in a [ __ ]. mason jar somewhere down in the basement. of Yeah. Well, no. The the agency called.

me up and said, "Look, here's what you. can and you can't disclose. Uh don't. tell them about the uh subb where we. keep the aliens." Um and uh so I think I. kept those secrets pretty well. Uh it's. Area 51 is a is a fascinating. fascinating place and um and it's what's. interesting is tracking the history of. sort of our developmental um air. platforms and looking at the timeline. the chronology of getting sightings and. things. And that that to me is pretty. cool because we were coming up with some. pretty bizarre, you know, air uh. platforms for surveillance in.

particular. And these [ __ ] this this. [ __ ] was flying around the desert, you. know, being tested. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. And you can imagine, you look at the timeline of people. going, "Oh my god, what the hell? Something's up." And and you and you see. this happening and you understand why. people were were losing their minds. But. well, it's it's people trying to believe. their eyes or trying to understand what. they're seeing is a real issue. We we. played a video yesterday on the podcast. of a bear that had something wrong with. its front paws. It was walking on two. feet and it looked like [ __ ] Bigfoot. Oh. Oh, yeah. I saw this. I saw that.

It's ridiculous. If you saw that, you. would think it's Bigfoot. when uh after. September 11th, we were filming Fear uh. Fear Factor uh down near Edwards Air. Force Base. Um we were uh out in the. desert doing these stunts and stealth. fighters would fly overhead. And if you. had never seen one of those before, if. you didn't know what that was, that. looks like a goddamn UFO. I mean, that. looks like a spaceship from another. planet. This black thing that's not. shaped like any normal plane, and it's. flying low and fast. You're like, "Holy. [ __ ] I'm looking at aliens." A lot of.

that technology developed at the agency. uh by the science and technology group. you know a lot of that um early days in. particular um surveillance uh craft. incredible what they were doing inside. how do they recruit guys instead of like. getting them uh filtered like the top. people instead of them going into the. public sector and you know making money. doing something else. It's a good. question. I mean, you know what they. got? They got a huge number of. applicants. They got I mean, you you. you'd be amazed at how many people apply. to to work there. Uh in in across the. board, operations, intelligence group, um uh S&T, admin, logistics, um they.

just get a a very deep, uh pool of. candidates. And and you're right. I. mean, these guys aren't aren't looking. to join, uh for the money. They can make. a lot more money at at Twitter or. wherever. Um Twitter. Yeah. I don't. know. It just came to me. I'm not I'm. not that plugged into, you know, my page. or whatever. But you have a Twitter. page, fellow. Yeah, I do. I do. And and. uh and I'm getting better at. understanding how you use it. I've only. got I've gone through like 800 tweets. I'm always fascinated by how many tweets. I've done because I think, wow, how much.

time am I spending doing this? Um but, you know, they they get great people. applying and part of it just knowing. that, you know, they're going to be uh. in the agency. you're going to have. access to uh both great people, great. technology, sort of cutting edge. thinking. Um, and there's patriotism. involved, too. I mean, they want to work. there. So, you know, it's it's I don't. again, I don't want to I don't want to. sound like I got rose glasses on. It's a. bureaucracy like a lot of other places. You know, things could be done better. for sure. Uh, but, you know, my.

experience was always always terrific. If any kids are out there listening, I. highly recommend you apply. Um, now the as far as like what's going. on in Area 51 today, that's not the same. thing, right? Like didn't they move. their operations to a different area. because so many people are paying. attention to it now? Yeah, they moved it. uh to Woodland Hills. Uh, so uh it's. just I thought it was Calabasa. I'm. getting I'm getting bad disinfo. That's right. Yeah. No, they they they. did move it because it it took a little.

too much heat and so uh so they they. thought it might be better to have other. uh facilities. Um, but it's still true. to this day is that they um I mean. they're inside the agency and I actually. took uh I actually took Indigo films for. this for the second season of of World. Access on Travel. I took them into the. uh agency headquarters uh not too long. ago, a couple of months ago and we did a. story inside the headquarters and part. of it was based on we've got a museum. inside there that's open to the staff. obviously and and and then the visiting. you know liaison partners and. dignitaries to come in. Um, and you look.

at the history and the agency started. out of OSS, out of the military, and you. look at the history of it in the in in. all aspects of it, operations, science, technology, whatever it is. And it's a. it's a pretty incredible it's a pretty. incredible place. But they always when. they're developing technology, when. they're developing ideas, when they're. developing operations, it's in response. to something. It's in response to a. task. They don't just sit around, unlike. maybe a a tech company in Palo Alto or. something. They don't just sit around. and throw a ball at the wall and think. yeah let's come up with a clever idea.

It's always in response to a task that. they get from uh well from the. administration says we need to solve. this problem and and typically the. administrations over the years they go. to the agency first because they know. it's you know they'll they'll they'll. they'll cut through the crap. They've. got people who will sit down and come up. with with with you know scenario that. you know this might work you know and. it's and and they work quickly. Um, and. again, they've got terrific creative. people. Listen to me. I'm a booster. I'm. a boo. You are a little I am a booster.

I am a booster. But that's cuz you're. proud and you're you're a real patriot. I I appreciate that. Well, it it did work. I mean, look at. the stealth bomber. Look at all the [ __ ]. that they did create it. Look at the. B-51. Look at all the different Oh, I. know. There's a lot of [ __ ] they they. created out of there. That's pretty. goddamn amazing. Yeah. And and some of. the most, you know, they they've just. got uh you look at some of some of the. [ __ ] I mean anybody if this is a good. point. You're not going to get inside. the agency's museum. Well, you can if. you watch the show in the fall, but uh. they have a spy museum in Washington DC. which is actually worth visiting. It's a.

really good it was anybody can go to it. Anybody can go to it. It's in DC and. it's it's a it's a great time out. Kids. love it. But the uh but it operates on a. couple levels. One is sort of for the. kids, but one is is it's a really very. very smartly done uh museum looking at. espionage through the years, trade craft. and a variety of operations that have. happened over the years. Fantastic. facility. So people should go to that. one too. Yeah. The techn spying technology is so. fascinating. My buddy Mike worked um at.

the American embassy in Russia and they. would find these surveillance devices. that the Russians would install in these. buildings that were so sophisticated. He. said they had found a listening device. that was powered on the swaying of the. building itself. the swaying and the. movement of the building itself in the. wind was actually powering this device. They said it was unlike anything that. they had ever thought of before and it. was just mindblowing that these equally. intelligent people with a completely. different language in another country.

had come up with some alternative path. to uh to listen in on people. Yeah. The. Russians were were Soviets during the. cold war in particular were were you. know a because they dumped unlimited. resources into it and b because they. were highly motivated and aggressive. Um. they were very very worthy adversaries. still are. Um but yeah our our cold war. history um is is a fascinating thing. You look at you look at the technology. that was de developed out of that and. and uh and a lot of that ended up being.

you know used for the private sector and. the development of everything from. smartphones to uh internet applications. to a variety of things. So a lot of the. crap that gets put together gets thought. of and designed uh inside the intel. community ends up benefiting the private. sector and the just the person on the. street you know commercial people. It is. also fascinating too that both the. Russians and the United States battled. over who could get the best Nazi. scientists. You know, that's dirty. secret of the the Cold War and of the. the space race. Well, you need that, you.

know, need those minds. I mean, you got. it's pragmatic, you know, choices you. got to make. They had to make those. choices. It's it's a choice that nobody. wanted to admit for the longest time. that Warner von Braonn was a Nazi. I. mean, he was absolutely the Simon. Whisthal Center said if he was alive. today, they would prosecute him for. crimes against humanity. And that's a a. pretty amazing thing to say when you. consider the fact that that guy was. absolutely necessary to uh take part in. the space race and that the Soviets had. Nazis and we had Nazis. The world you. were making pragmatic decisions in part.

because um you know it was well part of. it was the world we lived in and um I. don't know that you could do that today. in terms of I mean look at the situation. in Syria. you know, if we side with. Assad, is that politically acceptable. here in the States? Is that politically, you know, willing to do that? That these. ISIS guys were super smart at social. media and so we [ __ ] hire them to run. the United States Facebook page and we. go, "What the [ __ ] You guys got these. jihadis and there, you know, nobody. would buy that today." No, I don't think.

so. That's a tough sell. What was it. about the Nazis that made them so good. at engineering and technology? I mean it. is really incredible when you think. about German engineering and technology. to this day is thought of as in the. highest regard. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's. true. Uh and it goes back obviously goes. back a long long time. So um you. obviously they they took a left turn. That's not a brilliant statement with. the the whole that whole Nazi. shenanigans thing obviously. But. discounting their social activity this. their engineering and technology. I I'm.

always fascinated by what is it that. causes one country, one nation to excel. in a radical way above and beyond. others. Yeah. Um yeah, it's a good it's a good. question. Yeah. And you look at you look. at some that just continue to keep, you. know, kind of like ticking along at a. certain level. They can't seem to raise. the bar and it's stuff. I mean, it's who. who knows what it is. That's why again I. go back to that same thing about the US. I think we can do anything anything we. put our minds to if we have if we have. the collective will if we you know if we. set our minds to it and and I just I.

hope we maintain that that belief. structure for our kids. I tell our my. kids that all the time. I said how. fortunate they are to be living in this. country. How fortunate they are to have. the circumstances they have. I mean not. just putting food on the table but you. know the opportunity for education all. these things and to live in a place. where you know hard work is valued and I. listen to me. I said no but you're. right. No, look, you're Listen, don't. worry about it, man. You're you're a. real patriot, and I I think that's. admirable. I think that uh for the. longest time, look, I'm a car fan. I'm I. love cars. And for the longest time,

American cars were goddamn embarrassing. You know, while German cars were. producing these they they were producing. these incredible Porsches and the. Italians were making these fantastic. Ferraris, we were making shitty Mustangs. in the [ __ ] '7s. Pinto Gremlins. Remember the Gremlin? We had these. amazing cars for a while and then. something happened when the gas crisis. came along. We made [ __ ] for 20 years, but finally now American cars are. bounding back. Like the new Corvette is. a marvel of engineering. I mean, all. these European car magazines are saying. it's one of the greatest cars ever made. Yeah, I read I read some comparisons on.

it. It's fantastic. It's incredible. It's like it's great to finally see. stuff like that happening. It's like, why didn't it happen a long time ago? It's I I'm absolutely fascinated by. technology mostly because I'm a [ __ ]. and because I can't I can't engineer. anything. So, when I see how someone. figures out how to make a car where when. you're taking a turn, the computer. adjusts the shocks to put more pressure. on one side to flatten out the [ __ ]. a, man. That's what I say. I say if if. everybody was like me, we'd still be. trying to figure out how to how to make. a wheel and how to build a fire. We.

would even get close if everybody was. like me. It'd be [ __ ] stone rock. tools. That's it. We'd make banging. flint together. Probably doing a shitty. job, you know. No, it's true. Yeah. I. you look at [ __ ] that gets put together, the technology of it all, and you think, "Wow, who who the hell came up with?". How did you think of how did you think. of that? But, um, thank God they do. that. And then there's others, you know, who, you know, we get the job done in in. other ways. But I a buddy of mine, I. remember his first car he pulled up in. front of, uh, my parents house. He was. so proud. I was I I was I was young.

He's so proud of it. It was a gremlin. So proud of this car. A gremlin. And I. remember walking out there, even at that. young age where I just I I just gotten. my my uh learner's permit. Even at that. young age, I knew he had just bought. himself a piece of [ __ ] And I thought, how do I tell him that? That was one of. my first lessons in diplomacy. How do I. look at this guy who's so proud of his. [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] and say, "Yeah, that's that's great there, pal." Um, there's not much you can do. You can't. do anything. Yeah. Especially a guy's. first car. My first car was a [ __ ]. hunk of [ __ ] 1973 Chevel SS. Nice. It.

was nice for a day until the engine. blew. flew the first day I had it or the. second day, one day and the next day the. engine seized up. Better than me. I had. a I had a I had a 77 Granada. It's my. first purchase. 1977 Gran Ford Granada. It was very nice with a Landau roof and. a bench seat. Landow roof. I haven't. heard that term in the And I remember. the guy the guy said at the car. dealership, he said, "Do you want a you. want an eight track in that or do you. want a cassette deck?" Like cassette. deck you want this is new. And I said,

"What's a cassette deck?" And he showed. it to me. I remember standing there and. he showed it to me and I said, "No, I. I'll take that eight track. That shit's. not going anywhere.". Well, eight track sounded better, didn't. it? Supposedly. Yeah. I I thought they. did. But, you know, I think that was the. knock on it is that a track had a better. sound. It was just you had to deal with. these [ __ ] bricks. Put it in there. Kachchunk. And whatever wherever it was. in that tape, that's where that song. started. Didn't matter where it was. And. then you'd have a shoe box full of them. cuz that's the only way you could store. your eight tracks in your car was in. shoe boxes. My family never had one, but. my friend Javier did. And he he his his.

mom had a a he she had an eight track of. Pablo Cruz that song uh when my baby. when my baby smiles at me I go to Rio de. Janeiro and I remember like like seeing. that thing in the car going this is. incredible sound is coming out of it. whenever you want. It's not even a. radio. What a coincidence. When I was in. the agency I spent like eight months. undercover in a Pablo Cruz cover band. Um No working overseas. No I didn't. No. I didn't. But it it would have been good.

cover cuz nobody would see until you had. to start singing. Yeah, exactly. Did you. have to go undercover? Did you ever have. to do [ __ ] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. spent all my time in operations and and. that's just what you did. You worked in. in whatever it might be third country. You allowed to talk about that? Um, not. really. I've got a great relationship in. part because I keep my app shut. Yeah. Uh but um yeah, operations working. I. will say this about operations and. working on a cover is if you like to act. and I found that I I did then it's it's. great. It's very I mean and we've got.

everything from our disguise teams. inside the agency. We've got some of the. best disguise. artist people out of Hollywood clamor to. to get in there and work with with the. agency disguise unit because it's it's. so again it's so cutting edge and how. cutting edge you ever have a guy dress. up like a chick like a old lady like you. mean in my free time or you're talking. about. I mean, someone pretend to be a. woman like Big Mama's House. Oh, yeah. No, nothing like that. Nothing like. that. Nothing like that. No. Uh, but. that would be the move, right? You'd.

have to be a fat lady. You couldn't be a. thin lady cuz then you're But we had fat. suits and we had full overhead masks and. and you had to you had to be comfortable. operating in in in pretty heavy disguise. sometimes depending on where we were and. where we were operating. You had fat. suits. Oh, sure. Yeah. I know. Not like. fat bastard from Austin Powers. I mean, not quite that fat. But I mean, cuz what. are you trying to do? You're trying to. change your appearance quickly. You're. trying to figure out ways quickly, but. professionally and and and to withstand. scrutiny to change your appearance. People make snap judgments about people. and and in terms of surveillance, people.

make quick decisions. Okay, I I got I. I'm I'm following this person uh brown. shoes, um you know, blonde hair. Good. Got it. And you know, and and that's how. they you know, surveillance teams will. tee off of certain things. So, if you. can change your profile just, you know, in certain ways, then that's very. beneficial. But and then operating. overseas in places where necessarily I. might not blend in necessarily. So, but. if you if you like to act and operating. under cover is fantastic. I I happen to. enjoy it a great deal. Um, did you ever. think about acting once you got out of. the agency like acting acting? No, I.

would. No, I I didn't even know how that. would work. But, I mean, co-hosting a. show on Travel Channel Access is pretty. good. Why they changed the world access? America declassified sounds like better. for a former CIA officer. They wanted to. lighten it up a little bit. take it a. little bit away from sort of the. conspiracy and the dark side and focus. more on just going to great places. around the country and talking to. people. Well, that makes sense. World. access world access. And maybe next. season, for the next season, we'll do. actual world access as opposed to US. access. But I did this show for sci-fi.

called Joe Rogan Questions Everything. And they were trying to get me to do. sort of along the same lines as the. Jessie Ventura show, the conspiracy. theory. They were really into conspiracy. theories when I started doing the show. But the more I started doing it, the. more I was like, most of this is. [ __ ] Like you're you're you're. doing a show where you're exploring. [ __ ] but you don't necessarily want. to call [ __ ] because you want to. keep this air of mystery that keeps. people tuning in, right? Yeah. I I I I. agree with you. I I it can be very. difficult um to keep that up for any. period of time. It's annoying, right?

And then and so I like to think I mean I. I I approach this this uh this second. season that's coming up, this World. Access show. I approach it sort of like. anybody who's sitting on a sofa. You. know, I'm a fairly simple guy. So, when. I go to some of these places, literally, I'm kind of staring there, you know, slack jawed and amazed at what I'm. seeing. So, whether it's the the. geography or whether it's just dealing. with the people or what goes on there, whatever it may be. So, I like to think. I'm I'm, you know, I'm the guy that's. sitting on the sofa watching this [ __ ]. and I'm reacting the same way they. would. I'm just fascinated by it. So, and and and that's it's difficult to do.

sometimes with conspiracies because you. feel like a lot of the conspiracies. they've been beat into the ground and. you're hearing stuff that you've heard. before. You're looking at [ __ ] that you. looked at before, but not to say that. it's not entertaining. It is. But. anyway, well, I mean, even the Science. Channel, which is supposed to be about. science, they have so many of these. goddamn UFO shows where they talk to. these people and they all have [ __ ]. stories, but that's when it boils down. to it. That's all there is is stories. stories from questionable people and the. stories are almost all goofy and you.

just get it gets weary after a while. You're like, "What kind of a show am I. making? This is all bullshit." Yeah, it's stories. It's it's it's UFO uh it's. ghost stories or uh eating [ __ ] eating. going around to restaurants and eating. food, you know, Andrew Zimmerman, like. that kind of thing. Yeah. And and and. you know, I mean, I I I can see why, you. know, people find it interesting, but I. what I like about this this this show. now is is just we're going to some. fantastic places. We're seeing [ __ ] that. you got to make an effort to get to. So. everything that we're doing is basically.

you got to work to get there. But if you. do, it's well worth it. And it's not. just sort of the same beaten path, you. know, not walking up to the edge of the. Grand Canyon staring at and going, "Okay, that's nice." It's, you know, get. outside your comfort zone, travel a. little bit more, make the effort, and. you'll be amazed at what the the country. has to offer. Oh, there's some. incredible things in this country. I. mean, people don't realize the fact that. out of these 50 states there, I mean, everybody thinks of New York, Chicago, San Francisco. We we we think of these. spots that you you need to visit, but. there's so many amazing spots. There's. so much [ __ ] to see. You could have a.

thousand episodes just traveling to. different cities and checking out weird. [ __ ] that people do. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I just looked at. my watch. I realized if I don't leave. now, I may not make my flight. Where's. your flight? When What time's your. flight? I don't even want to tell you. You don't want to tell me what time? Well, I cuz I probably I may not make. it. I may not make it. All right. So, should we wrap this up? It's about 20. after 4 is my flight. Okay. Yeah, you're. [ __ ] Yeah. Uh, unless it's in. Burbank. Is it from Burbank? It's not. from Burbank. You might be okay. You might be okay. We'll see what happens if you leave. right now. We'll wrap it up right now.

Mike, thank you very much. This has been. fantastic. I really appreciate anything. you want me to promote. Anything? I'd be. more than happy to do so. Just let us. know. Promoted the [ __ ] out of the show. on Travel Channel and it's a great show, but I if I talk about it one more time, I'll I'll feel like a pushing tin. Okay, folks. You can uh follow Mike on. Twitter. His handle is uh MB Companyman. That's your handle on Twitter. And uh. the show once again, the old one is. America Declassified and the new one is. World Access and it's on the Travel.

Channel. Travel Channel. Thanks so much, man. Thank you very much, brother. I. appreciate it. And thanks also to our. sponsors. Thanks to stamps.com. Go to. stamps.com. Use the code word JRE E and. save yourself some money, including $55. of free postage and a free digital. scale. What else do we have today? On an. onit and onit.com. O N I T. Use the code. word Rogan to save 10% off any and all. supplements. We'll be back tomorrow with. Great Fit Simmons. Big. [Music]. [Applause].

[Music]. [Applause]. kiss. Thank you.