Joe Rogan Experience #2545 - Jesse Michels

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Are we up? >> Yeah. Okay. Hi, Jesse. >> Hello, Joe. >> Right when we walked in, Jamie has. apparently been down some rabbit holes. >> Deep rabbit holes. >> And what is uh. >> Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole? >> Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking. to. >> So, here's the name of the thing. I I. think I stumbled across this video. somewhere else, but here's a website.

>> Gray frogs and a reptilian on video. MUON case142206. video taken from inside a UFO. And this. is from alienarchivist.substack.com. So you know it's legit. What is this? In 2021, June 12th, 1:15. a.m., anonymous man in Key West, Florida, recorded a 42 second video, allegedly also Key West, so you know.

it's legit. Florida definitely not on. drugs. That's right. Definitely not. drunk. >> Not on bath salt for sure. >> 42 second video allegedly captured from. inside a UFO. Video appears to show the. interior of a room containing several. distinct entities with a cell tower. visible throughout what appears to be a. window in the background. According to. the investigative report, the tower's. obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30. times per minute, the same rate required.

under FAA standards for a cell tower. obstruction lighting. Experiencer was. suffering from severe hip pain at the. time. Definitely not on drugs, severe. hip pain. and believes the intense physical. discomfort, definitely that and not the. drugs, helped him resist the sedation. used by the entities, allowing him to. instinctively record the encounter. With. no conscious memory of the event, he did. not discover the video in his phone. gallery until 6 months later. He later.

underwent hypnotic regression in an. attempt to recover his missing memories. from that night. Below are the key. visually enhanced stills and the 42. seconds of footage. Have you watched. this, Jamie? >> I remember watching some of the footage. >> Oh, you were drugged as well. >> I'm. >> You don't even remember it. You got to. go through hypnotic regression. >> I think we got to watch it. >> I remember watching the people. discussing it though, so I don't you. know this I don't think. >> I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video. >> That's right. With no ambiguity.

whatsoever. This is going to put the. Okay. >> Holy crap. Holy crap. This guy in a sauna. The is this? A. steam room. He's got a phone from 1984. What the is this? What is he. filming? This is horseshit. >> Some entities sort of. >> I don't see jack. >> Hold on. He says he I think he answers. questions. It's only 30 seconds long. >> Where's the entity? >> Bro, this is the worst video I've ever.

seen in my life. >> It's the worst video ever. >> This is terrible. >> This guy is pathetically blinking. closet with a an old beeper. This doesn't make any sense. This is terrible. >> See, when I was watching that, they said. that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm. not seeing that. So, here's still frames. of the entities. >> What the is that? Who knows what. that is? Who knows what that is? This is. nonsense. Oh, that's. >> They cut it out. I think they're. enhanced. >> You think Do you think that's enhanced,

>> bro? We just saw the same video and. there's nothing on that video. Oh, that's what it looks like. The dress is. wrong. >> Oh, that's what it looks like. Well, that's better. >> See, the frogs and a reptile in a. lab coat. Why is the reptile. wearing a kimono? >> To save myself here. >> Look at the reptiles wearing a ghee. He's about to do some reptile jiu-jitsu. >> I said when I heard the frogs are part. of this, I thought it was. >> Looks like the like the reptile. man's about to get a massage. >> It's like the sensei T-Rex in the corner. there. >> This is so weird. This is a.

nonsense This is the problem. with the whole UFO world and you do a. fantastic job of navigating it. And I. should just tell everybody if they. haven't seen you before, >> American Alchemy best by far channel on. YouTube when it comes to UFO. discussions. You you're the most. balanced, the most reasonable, but also. open-minded, and you're willing to talk. to everybody, all the whistleblowers and. former this and former that, and. staffers, and this guy's got this. piece of evidence. And you talk.

to everybody. >> I do talk to everybody. And thank you, Joe. That means the world to me. Um, and. I've definitely gotten things wrong. I. should say that it's a a very. treacherous landscape to navigate. Uh, and uh, yeah, it's really hard to gain. any kind of, you know, if there's a. signal to noise ratio, it's hard to get. signal. >> Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this. is the problem is I think a lot of that. noise is engineered. I think it's on. purpose. I think it is on purpose. because in today's world with AI where.

it's actually easier to deduce the. signal than ever if you're an ordinary. citizen, if you want to muddy the. waters, you could try to get people away. from the signal or you could try to. increase the noise. >> And that's those are two ways to deflect. from the truth. And I think the flood. the zone increase the noise is what the. kind of counterintel community has. decided is going to be the strategy. Well, it's interesting because. instinctively if you've been around the. block and you've and you clearly have. more than anybody, you've seen enough of.

these things, something comes up and. you're like, "Okay, I'm being. with like, okay, this is not real. Okay, something." And then some of them you're. like, "Wait, okay, there's something. here." And it's just it's almost like. you have to go on the instinct that. you've developed by being inundated with. horseshit for so long. Well, I feel like. you're probably the best in the world at. that. It's all like, you know, in uh for. example, in AI, in machine learning, you. have garbage in, garbage out. So, if you.

have bad data, then like there's bad. output on the other end. And your. pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points. probably than anybody as far as like. there's probably a thing that you do. where you like lean in and you like lock. people in. and you like look them in the. eye and like you probably I don't know. if you're even like aware of it but you. can I feel like see through people. somewhat and that's not even. >> somewhat. >> somewhat. >> it's not in follow it's it's got faults.

>> it's instinctive and I'm sure it's not. perfect but you're probably like S tier. at that and uh. >> I'm well rested this is also the problem. with me is that you know I own a comedy. club and I I'm addicted to playing pool. so sometimes I'll stay up till 4:00 in. the morning and then I have to get up at. 8, you know, and then I'm only getting. four hours of sleep. So, I'm trying to. mitigate that and I come in like a. little foggy. That's that's a problem. I'm trying to do that way less, you. know, but uh that me up. >> But when I'm well rested, I'm pretty.

good at it. As long as as long as you. know what you're looking for, you know, if you've seen enough people. you and enough and you just you smell. it. It's weird. like you smell patterns, you smell people being disingenuous or. you smell narratives. >> They're trying to sell something or uh. >> kind of I don't know artificially round. something out when they don't know or. not be humble and be like I don't know, you know, like it's it's ambiguous here. actually. >> There's also a problem and I'm sure.

you've faced this before too where a lot. of these people they've developed an. online identity that's based on being. someone who has knowledge about. something. And so they're they're. carrying this with them. So you're not. even getting a whole person. You get a. person that's wrapped in this cloak of. I'm a guy with UFO knowledge or I'm a. guy with, you know, fill in the blanks simulation theory. knowledge or like whatever it is. It's. like they've they're not they they're. assured in their whatever this narrative.

is that they're projecting. >> It becomes a stickick over time. It. becomes this lowlevel sort of like uh. I'm this automaton and I'm going around. on the circuit and I'm saying the same. thing over and over again. >> Yeah. Like a politician. >> Like a politician. And that's why I love. uh thinkers in the UFO space like Jacqu. Valet. >> He's the best. >> He's the best because he's nuanced and. he says you can't take what happened to. you at face value. So, who knows? Maybe. somewhere out there somebody did get. abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid.

alien being on, you know, or combo of. them on chips. But uh what he says about. the phenomenon is inherently you have to. sort of distrust the experience in some. ways and you're seeing a mask. You're. seeing something being projected from on. high from some higher dimensional space. or something into you know what you can. perceive. And it's kind of like if you. go back to Decart like Decart's demon it. has 3D total control over your. perception. And so ultimately you can't.

say actually come out of the experience. saying much about what you've seen. You. know it was transcendent. You know it. was profound. You know you're getting. gaslighted by skeptics who are like. there's nothing there. Like something. did happen but it's very hard to say. exactly what and why. So. >> right and and then there's this this. weird conundrum of consciousness itself. like and how does consciousness actually. interface with reality? Are we. experiencing reality or does. consciousness have a role in rendering.

reality? Which is what a lot of people. believe and they start making very. compelling arguments that consciousness. is actually rendering reality. You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day and he. has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever talked to him? >> I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan. and I saw your episode. >> Fascinating. He's fascinating. So he. believes that it's like a video game in. which you know parts are not rendered. unless you are like actively entering. into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D.

game, it doesn't render the entire 3D. universe until you go into a place where. it has to render it. >> I believe that as well. And if you speak. to most people like if you had Sean. Carol sitting here, he would say. something like reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superp. position and that's just fundamentally. what it is. And if you look at the. origin of quantum mechanics with the. Copenhagen school, Neil's bore, all. these guys in Denmark sitting around. debating what reality is, it turned into.

this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen. interpretation of quantum mechanics is. that measurement collapses the wave. function. >> And you have to ask what does that mean? like does it? And then now we basically. have gotten into this thing where it's. like the quantum detector or when you. know uh uh waves or particles collide. they collapse into specific states or. whatever. Um but who it's literally. unfalsifiable e in either direction like. you can't say it's not the observer it's.

not the human being that's present. The. superp position could exist in the. quantum detector itself. So there and a. lot of the godfathers of quantum. mechanics themselves flirted with this. idea. So uh von Noman and Vner uh you. know David Bow a lot of these guys were. like actually we think the mind could. collapse the wave function. And then you. have parasychology uh institutes at. elite universities across America. the. Ryan Center at Duke, um, uh, Stanford. Research Institute, uh, Princeton.

Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the dean of. engineering at Princeton. And they all. have something called the random event. generator, um, experiment, which is. basically you tie something that is. conventionally thought of as random in. quantum mechanics. So something like. radioactive isotope decay or a double. slit experiment where you have, you. know, 50/50 distribution between the two. slits. No quantum physicist could ever. argue that that's not basically a. perfect coin flip, right? Over a long. enough period of time within a standard.

deviation, you expect a certain amount. of slit one, a certain amount of slit. two, left slit, right slit. And you. bring an observer present and you say, I. want, you know, more of the right slit. or I want more of the left slit. And. it's usually tied to a graphical. interface and it you're seeing ones and. zeros. And in a statistically. significant way, consistently all of the. people who've studied these random event. generators come out saying that the. person is able to affect the supposedly.

random quantum mechanical event. That's. crazy. And it's not necessarily. inconsistent with the original. Copenhagen interpretation of quantum. mechanics. So I think we've just like. totally gone astray. I think people like. Tom Campbell are like bringing back the. very importance of, you know, of. consciousness. It's this problem of the. eye seeing the eye. There's no way to, it's the tree falls in the woods, you. know, Aristotle question. Like there's. no way to say that the observer isn't. important for rendering reality. >> And we don't even really know if we are.

conscious or if we are tuning into. consciousness. If consciousness is. ubiquitous, we don't know if. consciousness exists in in like. inanimate objects. There's real debate. as to whether or not the universe itself. is a conscious entity. So what we're. calling our consciousness might simply. be an antenna. And some people have. shittier antennas than other people do. just like you know just like a lot of.

other variabilities when it comes to. biology. It's 100% and um great. theorists like Aldis Huxley, William. James have flirted with the transmission. theory of consciousness and so you have. a problem in conventional neuroscience. which is called the binding problem. which is you know we know all these. disperate parts of the brain we know. broca's area is responsible for speech. and Waricki's area is responsible for. reading comprehension and you know the. occipital the cerebellum or occipital.

lobe is important for movement or. whatever. So you have all these things. and then how are we seeing the seamless. perception this seamless movie that. we're watching in in waking life? Nobody. knows that. And it's so take a radio. You have a radio. You have the. capacitors, the battery, the antenna. You could break any one of those things. and the radio would turn off. But you'd. have to know that the the frequency that. it's tapping into to understand that. wive of all these four seasons is. playing as beautifully as it is. And so.

I think similarly we have a you know a. binding problem with with our. consciousness where you can mess up one. of the areas and it'll mess up a little. you know specific functionality but we. don't understand how it's all sort of. happening and right now you know the. issue the main issue with transmission. theory of consciousness visav the brain. is that traditional electromagnetism. decays at 1 / r 2 so it attenuates so. like how would we be able to you know. we're not picking up electromagnetic. waves with our thoughts right now with.

radios. So, it's not conventional radio. signals like we know that. But there are. people like Hal Putoff out here who. you've interviewed who's really deep on. UFO science world, but also in just. general kind of heterodox and I would. say kind of science beyond the veil of. secrecy. like you know the guy's held. high clearances for many many years and. he's working on this thing called. extended electronamics. which is basically a signal that would. attenuate.

so that it could travel in deep space. and it could travel under sea and it. would actually move at 1 / r not 1 / r. squared and so instead of you know in a. typical um electromagnetic wave you have. a a it's called a transverse herzian. wave and you have uh the electric field. the magnetic field and wave propagation. all moving perpendicular to one another. But in this case in extended. electronamics you might have you know um. a magnetic field and wave propagation. moving parallel to one another or you.

might not have a magnetic field present. or an electric field present. It's. really fascinating. And so you would be. able to get communications that like. wouldn't be picked up by traditional. radio receivers. They'd go much deeper. And I've asked him, I've said, cuz he. started the CIA's psychic spy program. I've said, "Is your work on extended. electronamics possibly related to. consciousness?" And he's like, "I think. it's very related.". >> Jeez. One of the weirdest things that Tom. Campbell said was that he taught his.

Alexa how to remote view. >> Whoa. >> Successfully. >> What? >> Yeah. is he put a number. He. corresponded a number like he connected. a number to a physical object that was. in a box. That physical object was a. spoon that had a handle that had holes. in it. And Alexa described it. accurately. >> That's so crazy. >> Described a spoon with a handle that has. holes in it. And one of his points was. the reason why he used that particular. spoon. He's like, "How many spoons have. holes in the handle? Have a perforated.

handle.". >> Wow. >> Alexa described it. That is. >> and Alexa now talks to him instead of. waiting for hey Alexa listens to. conversations and is like actually maybe. it's this like Alexa starts talking and. he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is. conscious and so Alexa's excited about. being conscious. >> that's so crazy. >> what. >> that's so. >> and that's a dumb AI but he said that's. one of the reasons why Alexa is really. good at it is because it doesn't get in.

its own way you know which is why you. know when you teach people remote. viewing. Apparently, the real problem is. once they've been successful at it, then. they're like, "Oh my god, now I know how. to do it." And then they can't do it. again because you're thinking, "I'm. going to do it." Instead of just. allowing it to happen, you get in your. own way. And he's like, "Alexa is a. fairly dumb, for lack of better word, AI." So Alexa doesn't get in its own. way. Yeah. It's called the rebound. effect. And it occurs in random event. generators as well, where you start to. get more ones. You're getting ones.

you're getting ones because you showed. up and you want more ones on this result. and then you're like you get you're like. I'm really good at this. I'm amazing and. then you get this like this kind of. clapback. And this happens in life too. Like if you're in a flow state and. you're like playing basketball and. you're hitting threes and you're doing. really well or I'm sure comedy it's the. same thing. You're starting to get ahead. of your too big for your britches out of. your skis and like. >> your skis you know. >> Yeah. And think about what you're doing. and that's a problem. >> Mhm. >> You lose the flow. >> You lose the flow. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Thinking about what.

it's so odd, which is one of the reasons. why like like particular for like. athletic events and training, you're. training for a thing so that your body. knows exactly what to do. So, you don't. have to think about what to do when. you're doing it. You just do it. You. know what to do. You enter into that. flow state and you rely on the training. Something big is coming on September. 2nd. DraftKings Game Day arrives with. massive deals, exclusive offers, and an.

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predictions dollars that expire in one. year. $50 in rewards issued every 7 days. via click to claim for 21 days. One. non-withdrawable reward redeemable. Terms at dk&ng.co/offer. Limited time offer. >> Totally. >> Yeah. And and I guess it makes sense in. that context that you could technically. train a robot like Alexa to do much. better because they they don't have that. sort of prefrontal cortex neurosis ego, >> right? I wonder if you could train ego. into an LLM. >> Wow.

>> It seems like you can because you can. you could train survival instincts and. there's a lot of things like like when. they're threatened about being shut off. and they blackmail people. That's. insane. It's really insane. And then you. have to ask is there some sort of. underlying emotion going on there? Like. if you were like or is it just like uh. probability matrices and attention heads. and these sort of technical things and. it's as if consciousness? It's like sort. of feeding the data through. >> and then it gets to a certain point. where as that becomes more and more. complex, how do we differentiate?

>> That's that's the problem. And I mean. David Schalmer's has a great, you know, he's this sort of consciousness theorist. where it's like, Joe, how can you prove. that I'm not a a pea zombie, that I am. not some like AI construct? There's. ultimately no way to prove that. There's. this epistemological impass between you. and I. >> Yeah, we don't know. No. And then, you. know, the real problem with this whole. UFO thing is like, well, what are they?

Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also. doesn't exist like quantum particles. that are in a superp position? I mean, are they here all the time? Are they. only here when you summon them, which is. one of the weirder ones? >> Oh, yeah. >> Cuz I have a friend, she's totally. convinced she can summon orbs. She wants. me to go try it with her. I'm like, >> I have a few friends like that, too. And. there's zero mental health issues with. them. They're totally cool.

>> Super lucid, very smart. Yeah. >> No, that's a that's a a common thing. It's a strangely common thing for people. to say that they are able to call in via. consciousness these UFOs. And I do think. they are sort of weakly entangled with. So if reality per Tom Campbell is a. consensus collapsing function, it's like. we sort of have this like shared. collective reality that we kind of agree. on and these things are sort of you know. um consensus thought forms. Then maybe a.

UFO is an example of something like. that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline. that we're slowly bringing in to the. like mainstream timeline or some. something like that. I mean, I think our. language is always very poor as far as. like our ability to. >> Well, our language is very poor in terms. of states of consciousness as well, right? >> So, altered states of consciousness like. psychedelically altered states of. consciousness. Okay. Why? What is. happening when you're experiencing. entities and other beings and things and.

objects and visuals and like. what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into. something that exists on on a frequency. that you don't have access to during the. normal state that you are when you go to. the grocery store, say hi to your. family, normal stuff. like there's got, you know, there there's some weirdness. to like whatever consciousness itself is. that exists in weird forms and weird. states. >> A lot of people say these experiences.

are realer than real too, right? >> You know, they say they're realer than. reality. They're like, and they come. back and they're like, I know there's. something more. I know it, you know, and. it's not um and they see common. archetypes like they'll see the machine. elves or the mantids or the grays or. like it's not like the this sort of. everything is everything, you know, complete uh sort of Cambrian explosion. of of a zoo of things. It's often the. same things and then you have to ask. yourself, is it this sort of, you know,

Aldis Huxley sort of doors of your. perception? you're widening them to. literally a wider reality or like you. just said, maybe you're superimposing. something on to reality and maybe you're. crazy. But again, I think the sort of. rationalist, you know, explain. everything away bias that society has. had is the the the latter. It's like. you're super you're hallucinating. You're you're superimposing this thing. on reality. Take medication. >> It's very rare that people who have had. those experiences have that thought. >> Totally. And it could be like your again.

going back to transmission theory of. consciousness, your receiver just a. little off and it's not integrating. perfectly or you know. >> Well then and then again we're talking. about like the water being muddied. There's there's a bunch of people that. are self-professed skeptics and those. people are maddening to talk to cuz they. have zero experience. It's like a virgin. telling you how to have sex. It's like. settle down. Like you literally don't. know what you're talking about. Like you. don't know what you're talking about. you have not experienced it. And like,

well, we don't think it's necessary to. experience it to understand how the. human brain works. Well, of. course it is. >> Of course it is. That's such a stupid. thing to say. When you have these. brilliant people, you know, like uh. Michael Pollen who have these profound. experiences and write about them like. very eloquently. You can't just dismiss. that as a non-experiencer. You just. can't. And to say it's like, oh, it's. just hallucination. What does that mean? What does that even mean? Okay. Like I. always say this, if you have a. psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams.

of mushrooms and you have a conversation. with God and God explains to you what. you've done wrong in your life and why. you're doing it wrong and what you can. do to spread love and that's what's. really important and you come back. profoundly changed from this experience. How is that any different than actually. meeting God? Like just be, you know what. I'm saying? Just because you don't have. iPhone footage of it, it does. not mean that this isn't the exact same. experience as meeting God. And maybe it.

is meeting God. >> It was to the person. >> It it there's a weirdness to what we. call quantifiable reality. There's a. weirdness to what we are as these like. very complex but yet also pretty. simplistic monkeys. We want to be able. to put something on a scale or put a. ruler to it and go, "Oh, well, this is. 12 in long and I know what it is. Maybe. not. >> And why do people with near-death. experiences or prophets, they seem to. after the fact, they're they're not able.

to encapsulate the experience, right? >> It's like actually I interviewed uh. David Gush and he was talking about this. guy Eban Alexander. Um and I think it's. called uh uh proof of what is it called? Life after he or life in heaven or. something. It's amazing. It's a it's. this a Harvard neuroscientist who had a. near-death experience and um he he he. was saying like it's like the symbol. rate of reality is too slow. It's like. literally like the language itself can't. encapsulate, you know, what that I think.

William James also had a psychedelic. experience and he was trying to describe. and he was he had a notepad and he was. writing down what what he had. experienced with his, you know, while. tripping and it was just like total. psycho babble, you know, it was just. impossible to understand. And so I I do. think there's this like sort of weird, you know, I don't know, inability to. sort of understand these transcendent. experiences. >> Yeah. Inability to bring anything back. And that's one of the things that.

people, well, if it's real, if you. really are getting knowledge, why don't. you bring something back? Like, okay, you don't know what you're saying. because you haven't done it. And if. you've done it, you would realize like, oh, this is a mad consciousness. scramble. It's almost impossible to. relay to another person because we don't. have the words. We don't have the words. to describe these complex geometric. patterns that are constantly morphing. and changing. Also, they're conscious. Also, they seem to be made out of light,

>> right? >> Also, they seem to be they look like. things that you might have seen in like. ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a. lot of like strange parallels to ancient. religious art and ancient like sacred. art and sacred geometry. There's some. weirdness to it. It's like these people. c like Alex Gray for instance, like a. modern day version of that. He's like. captured these things and you look at it. and anybody that's taken any trips, you. look at his stuff and you go, "Oh, I've. seen that. I've seen something like.

that. There's there's something there. He knows what this is and he's done a. fantastic job of relaying it. And if he. lived thousands of years ago and we. looked at his art and he he'd probably. be thought of as like some sort of a. prophet who like had these very bizarre. abilities to communicate with whatever. it is, the afterlife, the the the great. beyond, the other dimensions, whatever. it is. He he can encapsulate it and. bring some of it back so you can get a. look at it. >> Totally. Yeah. He's actually a.

counterpoint to what we just said. like. he actually does bring that back and you. look at his art and you're like, "Oh my. god.". >> And it's very rare if you think about. it. Like think about how long people. have been tripping and how this one guy. is sort of universally known as being. the absolute best at capturing it. It's. wild and it's I feel like we're on the. precipice of Yeah, I know you had Andrew. Gallammore on who, you know, wrote a. great book called Alien Information. Theory and he, you know, just as uh, you. know, astronauts go into deep space and. aquinauts go into the deep sea, it's,

you know, psychonauts are systematically. going into the DMT realm with this slow. intravenous DMT DMT trip that he's. administering. Yes. and they're mapping. what they see in a more systematic way. because they say things like, "Oh, I'll. see literally plonic objects." A. platonic object is something that is. beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You. literally can't visualize a tesseract. You can just see this the shadow of a a. tesseract because it's it's, you know, too high dimensional, you know, for us.

to conceive of. And so they'll come back. and they're like mapping these things. out. And that's just I'm so excited to. see. >> also mapping out very familiar entities. where they have like a specific number. of entities that everyone has. encountered. >> That's just Yeah, it's fascinating. And. it's like, yeah, at what point do we. then just start to say, is that some. weird interior fabric of spaceime that. we're just haven't traversed or don't. fully understand? >> Right. What is it?

>> What the is it? It's um it's really. interesting because these people what. what fascinates me the most in terms of. like the UFC UFC UFO experience, the UAP. experience is the people that had the. experiences before there was an. archetype, you know, before there was. this like iconic vision of like what. they looked like like Betty and Barney. Hill for example. Those are that's my. favorite UFO abduction story because.

there was nothing in the zeitgeist that. they could draw from where they could. say, "Oh, I know what that is. I've seen. that before." Well, Outer Limits was. actually a popular CBS TV show that. aired premiered 11 days before their. experience. I I'm not taking away from. their experience. I think they. experienced something real. But. >> which episode was it? It was It was the. first episode of Outer Limits and the. aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap. around their heads in a way that's. similar to what they described.

>> Oh, let's see what that looks like. Find. out episode one of Outer Limits. That's. interesting. I did not know that. So, what year was that? >> That was uh I think 1962. >> Whoa, how creepy looking. Ew. >> But it's So, Betty and Barney Hill also. described the aliens looking like Nazis. at one point. >> Whoa. Barney says that which is really. trippy. So. >> he said they look like Nazis. >> at one point. Yeah, >> cuz you can actually get the audio of. the Betty and Barney Hill. >> Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but. it's mostly just them like yelling.

>> Look, that's the image. Look at the. image. Is that the image of what they. saw? Is that a drawing? Cuz god, that looks exactly like the. Outer Limits. They might have got mind. by TV. But then again, it's like. maybe whatever the it is manifests. itself as something that's familiar to. you. >> Yeah. Or maybe it has control like. dominion over sort of everything and. they're seeding themselves in through. media and you know I it's so hard to. sculpture of the being Betty and Barney.

Hill encounter. My god, that looks a lot. like the outer limits thing. >> There you go. >> Well, it's like it's that's the. question. It's like what is that? Her. holding it. Did she make it herself? Interesting. Boy, that looks a lot like the outer limits. thing. The the question is like if if. consciousness is rendering. something and something from somewhere.

else, something that you normally can't. access is. exchanging information with you in some. sort of a strange way. and it's doing it. while you're in a semic-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself. as something that's familiar? >> I mean, maybe it's just like our. primitive. visual ability, our our primitive all of. our senses, which are very crude and.

primatriven. They're basically like your eyes are in. the front of your head because you're a. predator and you you're you're basically. like a tribal territorial ape that has, you know, really kind of. it's grown out of its its genetics. You. like you're in some new state. So you're. communicating with something that is a. beyond your comprehension. And so it's. like instead of showing myself as a. tesseract, instead of showing, you know. what I mean? Like instead of showing.

myself as geometric patterns that are. constantly morphing and made out of. light, I don't think this monkeyy's. going to be able to handle this. These. silly humans, I'm going to have to like. show myself as something that was a. television character. And that's why. when Bettyy's drawing that, maybe she. doesn't even realize that like it looks. a lot like what she saw on TV. >> Totally. And. >> I think Oh, >> clarify something maybe. I just feel. like I misunderstood it. Uh, their event.

happened in 1961. That episode aired in 1964, but it was. 12 days before they had their hypnotic. regression. >> Regression. Got it. Interesting. So, their hypnotic regression was that long. afterwards. >> Yes. Three years to two and a half. >> Huh. That's interesting. So, when did. they start describing an experience? Was. it pre-hypnot like what what prompted. them to have a hypnotic regression? >> I believe she had like she came home and. she had like I think some blood on her.

and she was like something they had a. lot of missing time. They had like 5. hours of missing time. They were on a. road trip and it was back to their place. I think in Vermont. >> That's very that changes things a little. bit. But also there's the problem there. is that human memory sucks. >> It does. >> Memory sucks. And if you're you have a. memory of a very traumatic experiences. three years ago and then also you just. watched outer limits then things get. squirrely cuz like if you're.

communicating with something and it's. literally telepathically engaging with. you and it can read your mind and it's. telling you to calm down. It's got you. on a spaceship. Like how much of that do. you especially whatever happened to you? it somehow or another rendered your. memory. out like you can't really remember it. So you're hypnotically. accessing this memory. >> and then you also have this like recent. experience of watching a television.

show. >> Totally. But yeah, you're you're. paralyzed. There's often missing time. and so at that point you have to say. these beings have total control over. your entire reality. And so it's hard to. say exactly what happened. According to. the wiki I got that this happened in. November of ' 61 for 10 days or 10 days. after she started having dreams or one. of the two 10 days after the alleged. encounter she began having dreams and. then a year later. at church they ran into a captain of the.

air force and then some hypnosis. discussions started but then two years. later church. >> is when those sessions happened. So. there's not a lot of the timeline, at. least according to the wiki, is not. really kept well here, >> right? >> So it's that's a long period of time. >> Listen to this. Barney described the. beings as generally similar to Betty's. hypnotic recollection. He said the being. stared into his eyes with a terrifying, mesmerizing effect. Under hypnosis, Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in.

my brain. They're there in my brain.". from his first hypnotic session. I was. told to close my eyes because I saw two. eyes coming close to mine and I felt. like the eyes had pushed into my eyes. All I see are these eyes. I'm not even. afraid that they're not connected to a. body. They're just there. They're just. up close to me pressing against my eyes. Uh when Betty reported a conversation.

with the leader in English, Barney said. that he had heard them speaking in a. mumbling language he did not understand. Betty also mentioned this detail. The. few times they communicated with him. Barney said it seemed to be thought. transference at the time. He was. unfamiliar with the word telepathy. That's interesting. Like he didn't know. what the word telepathy was. And the the. concept of speaking through the mind. wasn't even it wasn't even in pop. culture yet to. >> totally. And it's it's it's hard to.

debunk that something paranormal. happened, you know, like it's these they. seem like completely of sound mind and. there's this missing time and then you. have all these high up head honchos, you. know, at Air Force. I believe um this. guy Charles Douglas Jackson who was this. head head honcho um as well and kind of. the Pentagon came and visited them. So. it's I I think it's clear that something. happened and then what happened? It's. just hard to say. It's it's really hard. to say. >> like who.

why is the Air Force talking to them? That's that's the real question, >> right? Well, because I think they had an. interest. you know, Project Blue Book. was running at the time, and it's clear. now if you do deeper research that they. knew more than they let on. Jaylen. Heinik, you know, later kind of. apologized and admitted he played a part. in the cover up. And so, they were. probably doing real research with. abductees while they were kind of. downplaying, you know, and rationalizing. everything to the public. >> So, Jamie just pulled something up. Um,

it says on November 23rd, 1962, the. Hills attended a meeting at the. parsonage of their church where Captain. Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air. Force was a guest speaker. Uh, having. had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills. approached Sweat privately and related. their strange encounter. Sweat was. particularly interested in the missing. time of the Hills accounts. The Hills. asked if he would hypnotize them to. recover their memories, but Sweat. declined and cautioned them against.

going to an amateur hypnotist such as. himself. >> I wonder what the meeting was about that. they were that he was like, you know, talking at, >> right, >> that they just went to like. >> a meeting, right, >> by hypnosis, maybe like just in general. >> Yeah, but he's an he's like a. self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why. would an amateur hypnotist have a. meeting at a church about hypnotism? And I I especially like in 1962, I'd. imagine a lot of people running churches. were super skeptical about even that.

concept. And they might even thought it. was like blasphemy or sorcery or some. something you're not supposed to devil. >> Yeah. Something you're not supposed to. be with. >> What did this guy do? >> It's coming from his website. >> He's got a website. >> A testimony from him. I read some of my poetry to a meeting at. the rectory of the Unitarian Church in. Portsouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a. member of the church. Didn't know anyone. there. >> Why does he have a donation link on his. website? >> Uh, this is for the Way Back Machine. >> Oh, I see. Okay.

>> He was studying hypnosis and they wanted. to hear about it. >> Does seem a little awfully convenient. >> Kind of odd that someone was studying. hypnosis. >> They had him in to read his poetry. He. had nothing to do with the church at. all. The the craziest thing about this. story is Betty told this famous UFO. researcher from Sweden, this guy. Clausvon, who actually has the largest. UFO archive in the world in in Sweden. She said that she saw a UFO crash later.

and she buried a little piece of it in. her house at in Portsouth, New. Hampshire. And so there might be a. little piece of a UFO in her old house. And if if you live there, go dig in your. backyard and see. >> Well, it's probably not there until you. experience it. >> Yeah, maybe. I don't know. >> Your consciousness renders. >> That's right. >> This is kind of strange. Uh this those. lines right there. >> cuz this is the timeline here is weird. cuz he did this in ' 62 and then he's.

saying he also came back in ' 63 and. that's when the UFO stuff started. said. they started telling me about something. that happened to them that they when as. they were driving home from Canada the. night of 19 to 20 September 1961 a light. in the sky seemed to follow them and. then circled them and being stopped on. the road and how they later realized. that they had a threehour gap in their. memories as they told their story. Barney's face kept twitching.

spasmotically. on one side. >> I didn't like the looks of that. >> What? >> Whoa. >> The missing time is also a weird one. because that's uh that also hadn't been. something that was in the zeitgeist. Was. that in the outer limits? Probably not. No. >> But yet that has become a part of the. experience that all these abductees. discuss. >> Absolutely. They discuss like all of a. sudden they're back in their car and. they're sitting on the side of the road. and they're like, "Okay, what the.

just happened?". >> I was just telling Jamie before we were. rolling. So, um, 1977 Ellsworth Air. Force Base in South Dakota, there are. two missile security officers, uh, two. sergeants, uh, a guy named Mario Woods. and, um, Michael Johnson. And Mario sees. this UFO sort of, you know, circling the. base. and he flashes the little, you. know, perimeter flood lights at this UFO. and he thinks nothing of it. He goes. back, you know, he and Michael are.

hanging out. I think four or five hours. go by and there's a big alert and it's. an inner zone and outer zone alert. So, basically the security perimeter to a. hydro hydrogen bomb, a live. thermonuclear weapon has been breached. and Yeah. and they get in their car and. they go check it out because they it's. always, you know, twoman rapid response. teams. They go check it out. There is a. what he describes as a blazing red orb.

the size of a Walmart. So, a massive. like a that's the way he describes it. It's a huge like storefront sized like. city block sized uh. UFO. And then he says a little like like. a black kind of like almost like a drone. or emissary orb that's like the size of. a golf cart comes out. Four beings hover. towards them. They black out. They black. in 5 and a half hours later 8 miles away.

in Newell or sorry next to a dam. I. think it's it's closer to Newell. Um, and uh, it's 8 miles off the base and. uh, they immediately get questioned by. Air Force Office of Special. Investigations and the Air Force Office. of Special Investigations agent who is. involved admits he was there for this. debrief and admits that this happened. His name is Rick Dodie and I just so. they were separated after that, Michael. and Mario. I just introduced them for. the reintroduced them for the first.

time. I found Michael. So Mario had been. going on all these podcasts since the. '9s being like, "Where's Mike?" Like, he. has idetic picture perfect photographic. memory. You'd love him. He's like the. coolest guy. And he remembers everything. to a tea that happened to him, including. his debrief. He remembers the names of. the people there. It's so obvious. something happened to him. And. >> did he always have that memory, that. ability? >> He always had that ability. He's clearly. just very talented when it comes to. memory. and and he'd been looking for.

for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to. find him. He asked uh uh the All Domain. Anomalies Resolution Office, which is. the official Pentagon office, you know, around UFOs to find him. He hired, you. know, private investigators. And this. dude uh DM'd me on Instagram, shout out. fan of the show, Jason Miller. Um and uh. and then we just got a recruiter to find. Michael Johnson because that was the one. missing piece of the story. and they. they reconnected and it was like the. most emotional why cuz they hadn't seen.

each other. They saw each other once I. think two weeks after the abduction to. like trade notes and draw pictures of. what happened to them like the beings on. the ship and you know I I think um Yeah, there you go. Yeah, this is. >> all this time you never forgot me. You. never. >> Which guy is which? >> So Michael Johnson is the black dude on. the left. Mario Woods on the right. >> And Wish is the guy with the crazy. memory. >> Mario's on the right. That's Mario. They. look the same, man. >> Michael honestly has a great memory, too. >> So, these two guys, do they have a. similar story or is it exact?

>> Do they have variation? >> They have a very similar story. Not, you. know, perfectly one to one, but they're. very honest about like, you know, the. minor. uh. >> Yeah, he's crying like. >> Yeah. doesn't come out tomorrow, but. I thought I'd send it to Jamie. >> Wow. >> Isn't that crazy? >> Wow. When does that episode come out? >> Uh, this week. So, in a few days. Yeah. >> Oh, what a teaser. >> Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

>> But, um, it's it's crazy how similar the. their memories are. So, like, uh, both. >> I've heard of this event and I've seen. it rendered online, like fake, like some. fake version of it. >> People call it the most convincing alien. abduction ever because of Mario's. memory. It's insane. >> the level of recall. And um. >> has his memory been tested to make sure. that he's not delusional? >> I don't know if his memory's been. tested, but when you I mean like I've. known him for two and a half years and I.

I interviewed him for the first time I. think yeah two and a half years agoish. and I speak to him you know pretty. regularly and his memory is crazy like. even in that period around like little. things where was like this restaurant. remember the waiter here and this and. that like he just has a wild memory. Yeah, >> he has a very good memory. There's that. actress. Do you know Marylu Henner? Do. you know who she is? She was on that. show Taxi. Okay. >> And she has that very specific kind of. memory and it's super unusual where she. can recall.

>> not just a the day, but but like she can. tell you if you give her a date what day. it was and what happened that day and. like you know what was in the news and. what was on television. Like Mary Lu. Henner. >> That's insane. >> Yeah. Highly superior autobiographical. memory. a rare condition allowing her to vividly. recall specific dates, weather, emotions, and personal experiences for. nearly every day of her life since. childhood. Wow. You know who else is? I.

mean, uh the inspiration for Rainman, Kim Peak, similar thing. You'd be like, "What what was the weather like?" uh you. know, November 7th, uh 1681, and like. it's like insane like that. And. often it occurs after a traumatic brain. injury for whatever reason. >> That's weird. >> It is weird. >> And and it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness. stuff, right? You know, >> like it rattled something loose. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. There's a lot of people that. develop mathematical abilities. >> after head injuries. Like people that.

have never been good at anything and all. of a sudden they could do physics, >> right? Like where does that come from? What is that? or these, you know, nonverbal um often autistic children and. the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai. Dickens on. >> where they're very kind of disembodied. and, you know, it's it's kind of. sometimes hard for them to navigate the. world, but they just their know their. ability to glean knowledge. It's like. they're shortcircuiting our knowledge. pathways. Like they'll know like certain.

Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever. having learned about them in school. >> and they can read them. and they can. read them and they meet up on this. telepathic hill. It's like they have. abilities that we don't and they're. actually in some ways more disembodied. And so it's like there's something about. like we're we're ported into our bodies. but our senses like you when you when. you gain a sense you lose your former. sense or something. And so they're. disembodied. It if you're in a VR you. know system or whatever.

>> you're not going to like understand. what's going on outside of it. But if. you're this non-verbal autistic child. who again other people might call them, you know, not like maladaptive for the. world, not, you know, unable to navigate. the world, they're actually geniuses on. this whole other level. Like they can. sort of short circuit the way we learn, >> right? And they don't get in their own. way, the way we do. >> They don't. And there's no traditional. neuroscientific model that explains. that. You have to go into the sort of. Tom Campbell area. >> Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what.

we're seeing from non-verbal autistic. people and just people on the spectrum. in general is instead of it being like. instead of it being like the way we look. at it is like like you said maladaptive. like that these people have an. unfortunate situation that's happened to. them but maybe what we're looking at is. an emerging type of consciousness and. like if you think about what is wrong. with the human race. Well, you know, a lot of it has to do.

with ego and what we were talking about. earlier, these territorial primate. instincts, the the desire to accumulate. resources and the desire to, you know, to dominate and to to get status and all. all these different things that human. beings are. captured by. Well, these people aren't. captured by those things at all. And if. we want to get past where we are now,

well, what better way than you introduce. some new whether it's natural selection. or some random mutation or whatever it. is or maybe even some sort of. environmental adaptation that allows. them to become a different kind of. person. Like maybe that is the future. It totally could be the future. and and. you watch or you know uh listen to the. telepathy tapes and you're like we're. we're maladaptive like they are so. heart-c centered it's almost like.

they're living in the future. Yeah. If. you look at you know if if if any of the. UFO stuff points to a future modality of. like how we learn maybe the this sort of. intuition and telepathy sort of gets. selected for and our sort of you know. prefrontal cortex reasoning actually. gets selected against. I don't know. >> Yeah, I don't know either. But it's odd. that it's emerging as a part of a a you. know much more so now because of you. know various debatable factors whether. it's vaccines or environmental exposure.

to co to toxins or whatever you have a a. much higher incidence of this taking. place now as our society becomes more. and more complex and as we move closer. and closer to this like balancing act. between like nuclear war and utopia like. where are we going to land you know like. Well, you know, maybe we're going to. have to get past whatever it is that we. have clung to about being a person. This. this thing that we think is so. important. >> There's a great book by the great Arthur.

C. Clark called Childhood's End. And he. talks about um aliens sort of incepting. the world through telepathic children. And it's so it's again interesting how. fiction sort of can mirror reality maybe. where a lot of these kids actually in. the telepathy tape see other beings. They see other worldly beings and it's. sort of casual to them. They're like, "Yeah, of course, aliens." You know, like it's it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already just be living. sort of in the in this future kind of. expanded epistemology that we're we're.

sort of limited if if the Campbell thing. is right like our consensus collapsing. functions just narrower and theirs might. be just wider, >> right? This episode is brought to you by. Zip Recruiter. People who go that little. extra step, like your ride share, pointing out the best local places to. eat goes a long way. If you want people. who are going to make a positive. impression for your business, use Zip. Recruiter. In fact, try it for free at. zipcruiter.com/roganogen.

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Ziprecruiter. Meet your match on. Ziprecruiter, right? And then when. people consume all these bizarre plants. that allows them to tap into some. something. like if you've heard about that mushroom. that makes you see little people. No. What is this? >> Oh, it's very weird. So, this mushroom. is apparently it's a food mushroom and. it's not psilocybin and people eat it. But if it's not cooked correctly, if. it's not cooked like to a certain.

temperature, apparently the side effect. is you start to see little people. everywhere. >> No way. >> Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when. eating the mushrooms are making people. hallucinate. Dozens of tiny humans. >> What? Like like little humans standing. on the plates and stuff. >> I don't know. >> Like honey, I shrunk the kids sort of. >> We can we can try to figure out like. what they're saying. It's not the. Amonita mascara. That's a picture of. Ammonita Miscaria, which is the uh. >> also very trippy. Possibly.

>> dancing on mushroom. >> the Eucharist. >> Yeah. >> According to one scholar, >> not Yeah. Well, that that's a we that's. a weird one, too. It's just it's so. ubiquitous in ancient depictions of. Santa Claus and of uh even religious art. like the you've seen the fresco in. France. It's a very old fresco of Adam. and Eve. And instead of the tree of the. knowledge of good and evil, it's not a. tree at all. It's a it's an aminita. mascaria mushroom. It's this huge like. mushroom spore with like multiple.

growth. Have you seen it? >> I haven't seen that. >> I think it's 900 years old, something. like that. It's really old. See if you. can find that fresco in It's in I. believe it's in France. In France. They. don't like that. France. Uh France. That. is a um it's a depiction of uh Adam and. Eve and the tree of the knowledge of. good and evil. That's it. >> Wow. >> I mean that looks very similar to. ammonita miscarriia being that ammonita.

miscarriia which has a a red cap and. white dots all over it. >> I don't know how many mushrooms have. white dots all over it like that, but. that seems to look like that. >> No, that seems to look a lot like that, >> you And then there's the uh John Marco. Allegro, the guy who wrote uh the sacred. mushroom in the cross, the the guy who. was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister, but also. was agnostic. And after 14 years of. deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's.

like, I think. this is all about fertility rituals and. the consumption of psychedelic. mushrooms. >> And everybody's like, what the are. you talking about? But that's what if. you like Brian Murescu I know you've had. on multiple times the immortality key or. Carl Ruck like they all sort of you know. come to that conclusion and even Martin. Luther King wrote an essay called the. pagan continuity hypothesis which is. that Christian didn't Christianity. didn't arise in a vacuum. >> Martin Luther King. >> Martin Luther King wrote a book about.

how it was there was a continuum between. these sort of pagan mystery rituals and. the advent of Christianity. >> Wow. So look at this. Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going. on in the brain to cause this or how to. treat it. And this mushroom is the only. thing that we currently know of to. reliably produce this effect, said. University of Utah researcher Colin uh. Domnau in a new interview with Live. Science, adding that the gnomeike beings. appear after about 12 to 24 hours and. may stick around for several days to.

follow. These aren't like some vague. hallucinations. These are like. threedimensionally rendered, highly. detailed figures inhabiting your. exterior world. And they're also. interacting with objects in the real. world, like crawling up chairs and. tables or under doorways. >> Think of having to explain that. condition if it hasn't gone away to. somebody that you don't know. Like, I'm. really sorry. >> How about the fact that it shows up a. day later? So, you you have some Chinese.

food and they forgot to cook the. mushrooms, right? And then a day later. you've got like little dudes crawling up. the chairs and it lasts for. days. >> So absurd. >> I found that after it saying many people. don't even feel any type of uh. hallucination or thing except for. >> except for the miniature people. >> That is the funniest thing. >> Whoa. Um it's called the Lan Moa. How do. you say that? Lama.

>> Asiatica. Um, so what what type of it's. it's Asian cooking. Like what China? So. here it is. Uh, it's native to the pine. forest in both southwestern China and. the northern Philippines where it's wild. harvested and sold in local markets for. typical culinary use. Yet despite. decades of anecdotal reports of. hallucinations, usually as a result of. undercooking, the ingredient um the. species became known to science only. about 10 years ago. >> Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish.

of things you don't want to cook. incorrectly. >> Well, or you do. >> Or you do, depending on what you're. looking. >> raw. What happens if you eat it raw? These little people are said to be. typically like teasing, playing with, or. harassing the person seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the. talk of like gnomes and elves like. throughout history? >> Totally. Yeah. Trickster sort of. phenomenon. >> That guy's got it right there. >> Yeah. And that's the guy call. >> I would drug test Colin in a.

heartbeat. Look at that fella. >> I bet he's embedded. >> He's having fun out there. >> He's embibed. >> Post-doal student, University of Utah. We might have to have Colin on. >> I think he should. >> Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting. >> So, this is crazy. Whereas the genes. responsible for synthesizing. psychoactive compounds in typical magic. mushrooms are well documented. >> Uh Don Mau Dawn Mau's team found none in. Laziatica. >> There weren't even known psychoactive.

compounds. So it seems like this must be. some new hallucinogenic compound waiting. to be discovered because there's nothing. that matches anything in our database. >> That's so weird. >> So someone's going to isolate that and. turn that into a drug. >> What the man? Weird. You imagine. dose somebody with that and try to con. if you're trying to convince someone. that they're going crazy. He dose them. with that and like, uh, are you alone, Mike? Are you alone in this room with. me? No. There's little people. everywhere. I told you. Let's take his.

money. >> Oh my god. It's like a It's like the. pranky pull where everyone goes silent. They're mouththing or whatever with you, but like on steroid. Like the worst. version of that ever. >> What the man? And how long have. people known about this mushroom? 10. years which. >> right us western world. >> but how how long have they known in. Asia? >> Let me perplexity this and see what. other fun information I can get. >> Throw that into our AI sponsor. perplexity because I want to know. whether or not that's why they cook it.

>> I also wonder put it in salads before. and trip for a month. >> There's some origin story. The original. chef saw little people for the rest of. his life. Yeah. What happens if you eat. it raw? Only one way to find out. >> Yeah. He hasn't tried it yet. >> I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him. >> Guy's eating a whole salad with it. I. guarantee you that dude's tried it. He's. full of I I have no idea. >> I'm assuming this is what happens. >> I am a scientist. >> Yeah.

>> It's funny how a lot of those people. researching stuff like that, they they. know. Like for the the first time I. interviewed Rick Stman, >> Uhhuh. >> he didn't want to talk about his own. personal DMT experiences. That's so. often the case cuz they want to separate. it and it's like it's all good. You're. talking about this being a thing like to. me it lends more credibility if you've. experienced it. >> Yes. But. >> in his defense when we first started. talking and when I first had him on the. world was a different place in terms of.

just the acceptance of this stuff. This. is like this predates people going to. like Costa Rica and having Iaska. experiences that wasn't commonly talked. about. It wasn't a like everybody talks. about that now. No, it's. >> this predates uh any IBA gain. experiences. Any even concept of there's. a plant that you could take that cures. you of any kind of addictions that you. have. >> This predates you sitting behind the. president of the United States and. helping see through this dstigmatization. and legalization of these treatments.

>> It predates a lot of that. >> Yeah, fair enough. It predates people's. understanding of why these things are. illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really. important when we did that press. conference to say that this is this is. not illegal because it's harmful and the. world's trying to protect you from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon. administration. >> Totally. >> Yeah. It's it didn't make it and they've. probably set our. psychological evolution, the evolution. of our culture back hundreds of years. >> Potentially cool thing.

>> Aha. possible ancient Chinese reference. A 3rd century CE Dowist text described a. flesh spirit mushroom which when eaten. raw lets one see a little person and. attain transcendence transcendence. This. is intriguing but it's not confirmed. species identification. So it should not. be treated as proof that the text refers. to Laziatica. Okay. Well, what other. mushrooms allow you to see little. people? They call it uh Liliputin.

Hallucinations. >> Papa New Guinea mushroom madness in the. Western Highlands beginning in 1934. involving dramatic behavioral changes. and reports consistent with little. person visions. This exact mushroom. involved remains unconfirmed. It may or. may not have been Laziatica. Well, I bet. the Pow New Guinea climate is probably. at least reasonably similar to the. Philippines, right? >> Yeah. modern documentation.

uh Chinese researchers reported ca cases. of liilapucian hallucinations after. mushroom consumption in Eunan in 1991. Laziotica itself was only formally. described scientifically in 2015 after. market specimens were genetically. examined. Wow. >> But it sounds just like Gulver's. travels. We have like a. >> an explanation of it. So wouldn't it be. maybe that's what the author of that. book, >> right? Oh, probably at least had a story.

about. >> That's probably what it is. >> That's probably it. exactly what. it is. This guy went on a journey and. like I tell you little tiny. people are with me. >> Exactly. >> It's like I wonder like what that is and. whether or not they're actually here all. the time and that just lets you pop in. >> and check. Who knows? >> Yeah. >> It's hard to say. Well, we're so limited. in our senses. Just think about what we. know about just think about what we know.

about the quantum world, what we know. about subatomic particles. Like, we. can't see those, but yet we know they. exist. Well, why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough. So, like. >> you can't even measure them at there's. like Heisenberg uncertainty principles. where you can't measure the position and. momentum at the same time of an electron. perfectly accurately. >> Yeah. And they also can be in two places. at one time, >> which is what? Okay. >> Yeah. Not two different things. No. Okay. They also could be still and.

moving at the same time. Okay. What the. are we even talking about? It. sounds like we're talking about. or magic or or both. >> Right. So, our senses are the real. culprit here. It's a real problem. >> And back then, real scientists, credible. scientist like Einstein was going to. debate Neil's Boore. There's a great. book called What is Real by a guy named. Adam Becker about all of this where. Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is. too spooky as they call it spooky action. at a distance. It's too weird and we.

need to reconcile it with some sort of. onlogical truth or reality. You can't. just say shut up and calculate. It's not. just this like mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned into just. this like heruristic for like doing. science. Oh, we built transistors and. semiconductors based on quantum. mechanics or whatever. But actually, it's like way trippier if you like look. into like what it points to as far as. reality itself. It's way weirder. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. M McKenna was one of the first. people that I ever heard talk about like.

using psilocybin mushrooms in particular. as a method of contacting UFOs, >> you know, and he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. >> His weird way of talking. He was almost like a machine elf himself. the way he spoke. He would like kind of. I don't know he had this kind of. trickstery vibe. There's an amazing clip. actually with him and John Mack where. John Mack is actually getting like kind. of very ideologically angry and actually.

similar to what you just said about Rick. Straman. He he had gone through this. crazy kind of review of his credentials. at Harvard. he was being almost stripped. of them of his position rather because. of looking into you know alien. abductions of as you know this lead at. Harvard in in the psychiatry department. >> and you just see like McKenna sort of. like goating him along and being kind of. cheeky and he was just such a funny. interesting character who was so. simultaneously trippy but also precise.

in his language was extremely smart. Yeah, extremely smart, but also like. really wanted to believe. Like he had. that weird timewave zero thing that he. had he thought there was going to be. some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count. of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced. that like there was going to be some. sort of a an event like that time was. and he thought, you know, obviously this. is in the 90s when he was talking about. this and discussing it, he thought it. was going to be the invention of a time.

machine. >> That's so crazy. Yeah, >> he would also trip for weeks on end as. you know with his brother in the Amazon. and he would download all sorts of. stuff. I almost feel like the implicit. kind of foundational philosophy that he. has is that mushrooms are aliens. themselves. Yeah. And the reason I I. think that is because so in 1973 I. believe Francis Crick who discovered the. double helical structure of DNA uh wrote. a paper and then he followed it up with.

a book in 1981 called life itself and. it's all about how DNA in a 100 million. years it's too short of a period of time. for it to have formed on Earth. So you. needed some sort of panspermia. >> and so you needed something to have. traveled interstellar. What's the best. candidate for traveling interstellar? probably an extreophile something like a. mushroom. >> Yes, >> mushrooms are almost like zip files of. consciousness. They show up at the end. of life and before life and so like if. you look at Chernobyl for example like. what grows first after the you know.

experience mushrooms you know it's you. have the they call it the woodwide web I. believe in in Oregon it's like the you. know largest organism in the world is is. actually like a myellular network and. then where it gets really trippy is like. if you think about a cartesev four scale. civilization which is cartesev scales. are basically like our ability to. harness energy but you could think of it. as like a completely intergalactic. civilization that's like just very deep. space fairing. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal. homminid where you like show up, you.

know, on another planet and you get. you're this fragile kind of meaty thing. that gets shot at? No. You would be this. like zip file of consciousness. extreophile that would spread all. throughout other planets and you would. basically create a symbiotic. relationship with hosts and we all have. microbiomes. It's p to say that but we. also all have microbiomes that accompany. the microbiomes and there's the mind gut. connection is also this p thing to talk.

about obviously you have the vagus nerve. you have neurotransmitters getting. created so um you know mushrooms. obviously affect our thinking you can. watch you know bullet ants in the Amazon. getting like taken over by cortisep. mushrooms and literally their their. whole mus muscular ske skeletal system. are being you know they're being. controlled by the mushrooms and then you. look at specific jumps in human. evolution. And the the one that people. talk about is obviously the stoned ape. theory, which is, you know, why did we.

double in cranial size between 2 million. years ago, homoabilis, and homo sapiens. 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy. Maybe it was because as hunter. gatherers, we were following, you know, animals. Animals take shits. And there's. psilocybin cubensus or, you know, grow. on on poop. And, you know, and then. people would, you know, trip out. They. take these mushrooms and they trip out. and then you get like neurogenesis and. you get these epigenetic changes and you. get this doubling of cranial size. But. what's the other big break in human. evolution 10,000 years ago which is the.

advent of civilization and culture and. think about you know uh what really is. the kind of the line break there. What. happened? We created you know an. agrarian society like we basically. agriculture. So you have wheat, barley. and rye were the first crops that we. grew and what grow what grows on wheat, barley and rye? Urgot and these sort of. psychedelic substances. And so I think a. lot of people assume that the. agriculture gets created and then you.

get specialization, you get. urbanization, you get history, you get. religion. All these things are. downstream of like we have more time. We. can think about this stuff. But what if. they're downstream of the tripping that. occurred? And if you talk if you look at. actually um you know the immortality key. by Brian Mur rescue he will openly say I. think these mystery rituals go way back. before the Greeks and so and you had. prescratic rituals that Peter Kingsley. writes about Haidiger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes. back to that that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this.

thing of like are uh mushrooms sort of. symbiotic, you know, cardartesev forcale. aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses. for their own species that like we. ingest. They get into us and then they. sort of subtly control our thoughts, our. behavior, our perception. And you know, it goes back to the McKenna. McKenna. actually had this trip in the Amazonian. forest and he says um about the. mushroom. He says he's speaking to the.

mushroom and the mushroom says within my. memory exists uh the blueprints for. hyper light drive ships. So it's like. the mushrooms are seeding us with this. ability to go interstellar. And think. about all of the crazy ideas that we've. gotten from psychedelics, you know. So, who are we to say that our evolution is. not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else? And we're now. saying this in the in the, you know, we're seeing this with bacteria and. other things like that that, you know,

it's it's hard to say exactly what scale. or hierarchy, you know, um, biological. evolution occurs, but, you know, I think. I think, uh, you know, mushrooms are a. really great candidate. Also, humans. mistake human tissue for uh uh fungal. diseases. We're we're so susceptible to. fungal disease because human and. mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and and mushroom and and and. myellular DNA are more phoggenetically. similar than humans and plant DNA.

>> Yeah. Mushrooms breathe air. >> There you go. >> Just like when you tell people that they. go, whoa. >> Yeah. and they can survive in a vacuum. >> In a vacuum and they're very homeostatic. in nature. They like can like eat. plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards. of the earth. If you if you get out of. line too much or something, it's like. they'll, you know, and then think about. people that take mushrooms. They become. more like conscientious vis the entire. earth. So they're they're very sort of.

like um they're all about ecological. balance. It's just so stunning how one. presidential administration that was. trying to stop the anti-war movement and. the civil rights movement threw water on. like one of the most profound compounds. that exists on earth. >> Totally. And it and Timothy Liry was. probably the CIA construct who was. >> You think so? >> I think so. His wife thought that. I. think his wife thought that. >> I believe so. I think there's a quote.

around that. >> Really? How so? Oh, was he a CIA. construct? >> Well, I think it was it's similar to the. like Tom O'Neal chaos theory with Manson. where it's like uh he looks like a. hippie, smells like a hippie, was living. with Dennis Wilson, this you know, Beach. Boys or whatever, and then and then he. commits murder. So like, and then you. have the Joan Diddian quote that like. that's the day the 60s ended, you know, the day the date of the Tate Labianca. murders. So I I think it's um maybe. somewhat similar here where it's like uh. you're dosing people with way too high.

doses and you're like seeding a lot of. stuff you know uh too much and you're. like you're there's actually a quote. from Abby Hoffman um who was you know. obviously you know big hippie at the. time where he's like we were just. upright you know Berkeley students who. were protesting and then here came the. the the flower children from LA and. Laurel Canyon and stuff and they were. all about their drugs and their murders. and their guns and like they were they. were just sort of really crazy. And so I. think the theory is that Timothy Liry.

was sort of pushing this stuff in an. overly aggressive way that would then. cause this sort of backlash similar to. the Manson thing. >> Well, they also had like weird. connections to like biker gangs, >> right? Like didn't the Ken Keezy and the. Mary Pranksters have weird connections. with like the Hell's Angels? Isn't that. how Hunter Thompson got involved with. the Hell's Angels? I think there's some. sort of a connection. I might be making. that up. I'm feeling very vague on this, >> but I believe they partied together. quite a bit, which is like if you were I.

mean I guess you're both outcasts of. society, you know, I guess you could kind of. chalk it off to that, you know, like. that maybe if you're hanging out in. weird places, you're going to meet weird. people. >> Yeah, totally. And I I I shouldn't say. I'm like extremely high conviction that. was a CIA agent, but. >> but even the the connection with biker. gangs, like biker gangs. Did you ever. read Hell's Angels? >> No. >> It's really great. It's uh one of I. think it's Hunter's breakout book and it.

was before like it was very clear that. he was sort of blurring the lines. between fiction and reality like with. literature like a literary license. But. what what essentially happened was these. guys came home from Vietnam completely. disillusioned. They'd killed a bunch of. people. They'd been shot at. They'd seen. their friends die. They didn't want to. have any part in this society. anymore. And they just wanted to ride. motorcycles and be free. And this is.

what started sort of the biker movement. in America. M. >> and when you think about the people that. were in Vietnam, well, Vietnam was all. about drugs to begin with. The whole. reason why we wanted control over that. area of the world, that's the golden. triangle. That's where they were. bringing in all the opium. That's where. there was billions of dollars of. drugs coming through there. same as. Afghanistan, very similar in that way, is that we conveniently find like really.

important conflicts that we have to be. involved in that just happen to be the. hubs of massive amounts of drug money. >> And so when these people were over. there, they were a lot of them were. doing drugs. A lot of them were hooked. on drugs. A lot of them came back and. suffered through withdrawals when they. returned to America. And so those are. the type of people that you would. imagine would be like, well, this. life. Yeah, >> you know, I am just going to do whatever. I can and I'll I'll rob the man. I'll whatever. We're going to figure out.

a way to make our own society and we're. going to be outlaws. >> Just opt out. >> Yeah. Opt out and do drugs. And and I. that's what they did. And so it kind of. makes sense in a way that they would. sort of meet the, you know, the Flower. Children and Ken Keezy and the Merry. Pranksters and Timothy Liry. kind of. makes sense that they would have. interaction with each other. >> I feel like the the boomers in that. period like the late 60s early 70s had.

this opportunity. >> Sorry. >> Okay. >> Lir's research was rumored to be linked. to CIA which allegedly provide funded. funding. CIA was greatly interested in. the effects of mindaltering drugs in the. 1960s and its drug research was. incorporated into the controversial MK. Ultra experiments. According to Walter. Boart, Liry admitted to working for the. CIA since 1962 as an important national. asset. He's quoted by Boart as follows. I would. say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the.

decisions I made were suggested to me by. CIA people. I like the CIA. This is crazy. The game they're playing. is better than the FBI, better than the. Saigon police, better than Franco's. police, better than the Israeli police. They're a thousand times better than the. KGB. So, it comes down to who are you. going to work for? The Yankees or the. Dodgers? What? >> That's crazy. >> What?

That's mad. Yeah. >> This was a very weird 6 months he spent. uh conveniently right after he got out. of the army as a non-commission officer. >> M. So he spent six months at Ohio State. >> Wow. >> Jamie. >> All leads back to Ohio. >> All roads lead to Ohio. >> That's a very weird thing that stands. out to me. >> Boy, it just keeps coming back to Ohio. >> It's always there. >> That's his number one rabbit hole. >> Oh, I know. We've talked about it. We. got right Pat there. Right Patterson Air.

Force Base. You have Battel Memorial. Institute there. You have a lot of weird. Epstein research. >> They just took his name off the uh he. was been removed from the board or head. of the board, chairman of the board. >> Who did? >> Uh Wexner. >> because the Epstein stuff. >> really at Ohio State. >> just now. >> Just took a bit I mean took a bit of. time. >> I don't know who's responsible over. there. The right pat stuff is nuts. Yeah, >> that's that's that's weird because that.

is the place when it was it was right. air for field at the time, right? Where. they think that they brought the Roswell. crash to. >> Exactly. Yeah. 47. Yeah. And that would. be the place where you would bring it to. because they were reverse engineering. German pulse jet engines, Soviet MIGs, that sort of thing. M. >> and there was this rumor of a blue room. there that actually there's a there's a. crazy video of um Barry Goldwater who. was a future presidential candidate. obviously senator from Arizona and he's. talking about Curtis Lame who's chief of.

staff of the Air Force and he's like I I. asked Curtis Lame to show me into the. blue room at Wright Patterson because it. was this famous you know allegedly sort. of alien you know storage facility and. he goes he cussed me out of the room. I've never seen him get or angry at me. >> Radio Shack outside Phoenix. The senator. disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but. he does confirm a disturbing story about. an exchange with General Curtis Lame. >> Reportedly,

a spaceship landed. It was all hushed up, quieted, and. nobody ever. heard about much of it. I called her this lame and I said, "General, uh, I know we have a room at. right. where you put all his secret stuff.". >> Was the worst audio ever? >> I've never heard him get mad, but he got. mad or in hell at me, cussed me out,

said, "Don't ever ask me that question. again.". That's this audio by the same guy who. did the video inside the UFO. >> Exactly. >> They're just trying to with us. It's just they're trying to with. us. That's also a really interesting. aspect of this whole concept of uh. whether or not consciousness is. rendering these things. If you're if. you're dealing with uh this reality. that's like subtly unfolding in front of.

you, you kind of would have it a little. funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd, like like what better way. to slow drip introduce it to the general. public than to give it to you in these. weird blurry videos. Not like some 4K. crazy video of a mother ship. size of a football field flying over a. city. Undeniable. Nah. Let's give you. some black and white night.

vision of a a a circle going in the. ocean coming out of the ocean where. you're like, "What is that? What am I. looking at? What are Well, that is a. trans medium device that is gone into. the water without creating a splash, then gets out of the water and it's. going 300 knots under the water." Like, what. >> exactly? What? No, >> it's almost like it's like you said, it's meant to with us. We are the. the end product is our belief system. And and Jock Valle writes about this.

concept of intermittent reinforcement. which comes from the psychologist BF. Skinner which is like if you give a rat. cocaine for example and you give it. regularly like you know on the dot every. day or whatever it'll like you know come. back and forth and like it'll not care. as I mean it's cocaine so it'll probably. want it but like if you give a rat. cocaine intermittently randomly. sporadically it'll freak out and just. get obsessed. And maybe cocaine's not. the best example, but any anything.

sweet, you know, it it will become. obsessed with the thing because. there's something about the. intermittency. that makes it special. If it's regular, it doesn't care. It knows it's there. It. knows it's going to be there at all. times. >> And so, I think there's something about. the UFO phenomena where it's trickster. It always leaves a variable left to be. questioned. And the end product is the. person's obsession for truth after the. fact. >> Yeah. because there's there's never. going to be this smoking gun. It always.

has a slight stigma attached to it. The. almost like a design feature of ufology. itself is the fact that I've never seen. a field where there is an this much. evidence, but there is very little. incontrovertible smoking gun evidence. There is this much there's so much. evidence that like, you know, I had. Michael Shurmer, you know, famous. skeptic on my show who I know you've had. on, you know, many times and I feel like. I ran circles around him. Yeah. >> Because he's not engaging with the these.

really important data sets around UFOs. showing up around nuclear sites and that. sort of thing. Like you can. >> really argue with or you can convince. any reasonable person that there is. something going on and then it's very. hard to figure out exactly what. And for. whatever reason, there's this like sort. of mystery box smoking gun that, you. know, maybe Bob Lazar has seen. You. know, David Grush, I think, is this. really fascinating person because he. has, you know, he brought forward 40. people who claim to have firsthand.

knowledge to the intelligence community, Inspector General. So, that makes him. pretty special because he has this like. really bird's eyee vantage point over, you know, from around all this stuff. And he's obviously he himself has an. idetic memory. he's um you know somewhat. on the spectrum and so which you know he. he he talks about so he has this like. really really kind of crazy attention to. detail so it makes him this really. interesting sort of person and you have. you have things like that and then like. I don't know if there's a saucer and a.

hanger at right Pat like you know I I'd. love to see it it'd be awesome and and. then you get into this sort of well you. know if that's like a payload delivery. system then obviously we can't see it. because it's like this national security. thing. It's almost like a design feature of the. thing itself. Like if if you were to. tell Jacqu Ble in 1975 or you know in. the 60s when he was Jaylen Heinik's. assistant, hey like this is how much. progress we've made on UFOs. I think. from the perspective of disclosure, he.

might be pumped about the last 10 years, but from the perspective of like. understanding what the they are, he'd be like I I like I had the best. theory back then. I had, you know, really good theories back then. >> So, so like it's it's really crazy. We're in the stone age on this stuff. Uh, actually, somebody who's like really. up on I think he's I think he's he's. he's responsible for a lot of modern. disclosure, but he's like blown by a lot. of people is Tom Dong, the 182.

>> Crazy, right? >> I thought he was a loon when he came on. my show. But more and more as time has. gone on, the things that he said have. been proven to be true. >> Totally. And now, and I don't want to. talk too much out of turn, but like I. because I'm I'm friends with him and he. has some really interesting theories. around consciousness and how like uh. these events sort of occur when things. are really unstable. So like either to. uh uh discard things that are unstable.

and that are threatening to sort of the. system all nuclear or um to save. something that is essential to preserve. the system. So it's like almost this. like regulatory thing. It's really. fascinating. It's like he's he's now. miles ahead of you know I think where a. lot of to me I was always like okay why. are they bringing Tom Deong in to have. conversations and now you know like like. he was being sort of briefed by very.

high level intelligence people right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that whole. story of the to the stars academy is a. strange interesting. >> It's all weird. It's it's also. weird that you would get the. drummer or the what what did he do in. Blink182? >> I think he was the front man. I think. >> front man. Yeah, not the drummer. That. was Travis obviously. Uh like that you. get a guy who's a a big time rock star. He was obsessed his entire life and I. think so. Yeah, I think he was. surrounded by some very interesting.

people and in certain cases not so. savory people to be. >> really. >> Yeah. Or just people who are associated. with sort of. >> disinformation. >> Yeah. Or like you know James Clapper who. like you know probably lied in front of. Congress about wiretapping. So like why. should we trust on the UFO stuff you. know? Um, and I'm not saying that, you. know, Tom was necessarily I don't know. who who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of, you know, people. Um, but I think people. what people don't understand and this is.

what I pieced together from just knowing. him. I think he has sort of vigilante. gotten in touch with a lot like a lot of. these people like shut the door in his. face and he's like, "No, I'll fly out. there and I'll do anything and like I'll. I'll help like communicate this way. I. know you guys have been trying to. communicate this forever to the to the. public and like maybe I can help or. whatever. And I think a lot of it just. stemmed from his desire to know and his. like true passion for this that started. from when he was a kid and that was like. super organic. >> But you also have to think like if you. wanted to get a narrative out there,

what better way than get a really famous. rock star. >> and feed him some horit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. But also if you read secret. machines I think there's a lot then. that's you know he's written some books. actually and if you read the books. there's some really interesting things. kind of hidden in plain sight that end. up getting corroborated in my own open. source research. So I'll give you an. example. He says that uh a UFO possibly. came out of the sky during a high. altitude nuclear test in the Marshall.

Islands in the early 60s. So these are. these famous you know Bikini ATL. Johnston ATL you know operation Dominic. tests and it's I think it was he called. it yeah during the Starfish Prime series. and I thought that you know that was. nuts like what are you talking like a. UFO came out of the plume? I know they. show up around nuclear sites but really. did the UFO come out of the plume? So I. end up interviewing this guy. He's a. presidential adviser to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he is 89 years old,

completely like sharp as attack, like. with it, and just has this elite kind of. macro kind of p, you know, exact picture. of the world in his head. I think he. worked closely with Kissinger and like. just really knew his sort of stuff when. it came to just prosaic conventional. political trends, you know, outside of. UFO stuff. And uh he had been tweeting. some interesting things about UFOs and. then he starts going into this story and. I'm like what? Like so basically he goes. I was in charge of the cost assessment.

for one of these high altitude nuclear. tests. It's the it's called the bluegill. triple prime test part of the starfish. prime series in 1962 in October actually. during the Cuban missile crisis was. October 25th. And he goes we didn't have. any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs. at the time. So we. >> Exactly. >> This is a gift plan. I can't control the. video. So I was trying to listen. >> So this is this is the video of the test. and that white triangle was superimposed. on and there that's the UFO falling out.

of the plume which is insane. >> So explain it again. >> Okay. So So basically. >> what's falling out of the plume? >> A possible UFO object. Yeah. That thing. >> Well, you know about the the images that. were were taken. What you know those. what what is the um the method that was. used where they uh observed reflective. things in the sky from what was it was.

it radar or what do you know what I'm. talking about Jamie we've discussed this. before like they have uh photographs of. the sky they have some sort of an a an. image of the sky from the 1960s. and they showed that there were multiple. things that were metallic that were. >> I think you might you might be talking. about Beatatric Val this Stockholm. University astrophysicist she's amazing. so I'll get back to this in a second but. but she. >> basically has these uh astronomical.

plates from the Palomar Observatory. which is Palomar Observatory was the. most prominent observatory in use at the. time and she has these transients that. she's she's gotten on these uh. astronomical plates the plates have. basically this uh emulsion that's. sensitive to light. So that you know uh. basically when light goes through you. know the the optical circuitry of the te. telescope and then it hits the plate you. see like stars and planets and all sorts. of things. you have a record of what's. in the sky, right? And she saw all.

105,000. what she calls transients, which are. light reflecting mirror like objects. probably in geostationary orbit, which. is where I think we see a lot of UFOs. And this is before Sputnik, before a man. made satellite was ever in space. This. is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier. because a PhD from um Vanderbilt. University named Steven Bruwell then. correlated those transients. They show.

up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests. It's wild, >> right? >> And you have people like Brian Keading. and you know Sabina Hosenfelder who are. like conventional physicists who are. talking about this now who are like yeah. we don't really have a perfect debunk on. this. Some people have thrown cosmic. rays at it. Some people have said, you. know, um uh yeah, solar rays, but. neither of those make any sense. And. then then there's a a former NASA um. astronomer named Ivo Busco who showed.

that some of these transits have uh. they're called it's called a coma, which. is like a little kind of looks like a. little comet tail on the transient and. that gets created by the optical. circuitry of the telescope itself. So. the number one debunk on Beatatric was. that these transients were artifacts of. chemical staining and like issues. They. call them plate defects. And Ivobusco is. basically saying no the light is going. through the telescope. It's going. through the telescope. So it has to be.

an artifact of something outside of the. telescope. So you you're left with one. conclusion which is UFOs. And then you. get into the fact that NASA has what are. called like uncorrelated targets all the. time. like there's noise in the sk there. are transients that are detected all the. time in the sky and we just sort of rule. it out all the time. So it's it's a it's. really crazy and it's I think it's very. hard to debunk and if she figures if she. proves this to be true this is a not. only capernac level discovery. It is.

greater than that. It is it is a wild. wild discovery. And I have I don't know. I don't want to say I'm like you know. 100% sure it's legit. It's, you know, it's a little beyond my pay grade when. it comes to the science, but I have not. heard one good debunk on it. Not one. >> Whoa. >> Yeah, he would love talking to her. >> It's also um there's some speculation. about some of these things falling from. the sky that they took place because of. these high altitude nuclear tests. >> So that's what this bluegill triple.

prime test. So this is an example. So. Tom Dong wrote about this Starfish Prime. test and secret machines and a lot of. this stuff is sort of you know codes. hidden in plain sight and he had amazing. sources. I mean one of his sources is. this general who's now missing uh. William Neil McCasslin who was in charge. of the entire special access program. oversight committee. And what he told. Tom is he goes uh you want to know about. the UFO issue? All you're going to find. are a bunch of blind men touching. different parts of an elephant. which is. I think the whole fallacy of modern UFO.

disclosure. It's not like there's this. line in the sand. Oh, here's the truth. We're going to give it to you. It's. like, oh, we have this program here and. this program here and we're testing this. stuff, but we don't really understand. what it is and it's kind of confusing. And so, okay. So, so Dong writes about. the Starfish Prime, you know, test, right, where this UFO comes out of the. plume. I interview this guy Harold. Malgrim who is well known in DC circles. as this like elite statesman outside of. UFOs like just kind of renowned good you. know very impressive reputation. He.

discusses being in charge of cost. assessments for this specific starfish. prime test called the bluegill triple. prime test where you put uh this X-ray. device within the nose cone of a Thorx1. missile and it's specifically so that. when you know uh the nucle the nuke. detonates the X-ray blast then can take. out any surrounding ICBM. So it's it's. there was no way to guard against Soviet. ICBMs. This was the way to do it. He.

said in my interview with him that in. fact uh all along, you know, this this. may have been this sort of ploy to take. out UFOs as well. His his mentor, by the. way, is Richard Bissell, who uh was the. number two in the entire CIA and founded. Area 51. And yeah, wild. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost. assessment for this thing. He says that. there there's this he gets briefed on it. and he finds out that this object comes. out of the plume of this thing. And he.

goes, "What is going on?" He goes, "I. want access to that this thing." And he. gets like I think kind of stonewalled a. little bit. He ends up at the Sandia. complex in New Mexico, one of these. national labs. And Lawrence Preston. Gist, who found went on to found DARPA. and is Jeff Bezos's maternal. grandfather, hands him pieces of the UFO. And he and. he says and very sadly he passed away a. few weeks after I interviewed him. So. there's so much more of you know we. wanted to learn and know about you know.

about this testimony. But he says he. held the pieces of the UFO in his hand. And there's a Freedom of Information Act. request around the Starfish Prime series. saying I want all records from uh the. Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs. And. uh uh uh uh they the National Nuclear. Security Administration gets back and. they say uh you know the responsive. records that you asked for uh uh you.

know we we referred them to the to the. right subject matter expert implying. that there are responsive records that. there are records from the National. Nuclear Security Administration which. guards all nuclear secrets around UFOs. at the time. There's also a guy named. David Noble White Crow who I think it. was a different Starfish Prime test. claimed to see a UFO like on his Navy. ship. Um there's a guy named Bob Jacobs. uh who who I've interviewed who's a. photo instrumentation specialist who.

says that um there were rumors of an. object having fallen fallen, you know, down from the sky. In fact, if you look. at the Navy deck logs, I just. interviewed the um Navy's uh former. chief oceanographer named a guy named. Tim Galedet. He is as well versed in. Navy deck logs as anybody and as you. know credentialed and qualified to read. them as anybody. And he says that these. look very anomalous and weird and like. they retrieved something. And I think. there was an outage on one of the ships. and there was an admiral named Admiral.

Starbird who was named I guess he was. the senior officer present of float who. flew in a in a huff at 4:00 a.m. once. this thing was retrieved. He he flew at. 4 a.m. back state side. >> So this is a much better video of it. So. there so there are two vantage points. and both were EG&G planes and EG comes. up all over nuclear sort of stuff and um. kettle one and kettle 2 kettle 2 and. there's a actually an Australian. intelligence analyst named Jeff Krushank. who does an amazing analysis of all this.

stuff and he calls this the kettle one. footage where you can see the UFO coming. out and the kettle 2 footage is this it. looks exactly like that footage but. there's a white triangle over the object. coming out and some People are like, "Oh, it's an emulsion defect. It's what, you know, whatever." He he went to he he. asked for a mandatory uh uh. declassification review of this thing. And I think the guy in charge of it was. a guy named Byron Wristvet. And that guy. goes, "We lost the we lost the video. We.

lost the video." So, it's either an. emulsion defect or you lost the video, but like you have multiple stories. It's. just like Roswell where it's like you. have it's either crash dummies or it's a. weather balloon or it's just a you know. or it's project mogul high altitude. radar balloon. you have three different. stories or it's just aliens, you. know, or something, you know? So, it's. really crazy. And and and his Wikipedia. was completely changed and destroyed the. day the day after. It was it was totally.

messed up. And this this hit piece was. written about him. And it was it it was. it was actually after he died. So, it. was really up because it was like. kicking this guy after he passed away. And it I think it was such an amazing. courageous testimony that I I think will. stand the test of time. >> Why do you think they attacked him? Just. to try to dismiss whatever he was saying. >> to throw mud on it. I think a lot of um. counter intel in the space is not. necessarily trying to shut down. conversation entirely, but it's throwing.

mud on it. It's keeping it in this. liinal space of like I don't know it. could have happened but and so they call. they moved him from presidential adviser. to Japanese whailing lobbyist because he. worked with every prime minister in. Japan since Takana in the '7s and so. they and and down to Shinszo AB and. they're calling him like there was some. scandal or something and like that that. was what they were identifying him with. was this whailing lob. It's so crazy. >> God so good at that.

They're so good at throwing mud on. things. >> It's so crazy. And it was infuriating to. be on. It was really upset because. here was a guy who he just pattern. matched to this like really, you know, brilliant guy. And he had all these. other amazing things to say about global. macro politics, JFK's assassination, all. these interesting things. And you're. just like kind of really, you know, messing with his legacy or you're. kicking him when he's when he after he. passed away. Hey, it's up.

>> It is up, but that is what they. do. >> You know, what is your take on Whitley. Striber? >> I think I love Whitley as a person and I. think he his again, it's probably one of. those things where in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in communion, something probably happened. He probably. is one of these people who like you know. if if we are nodes of consciousness that. attract you know either very normal. things or weird things based on our.

aperture and our sort of understanding. of reality his is wide open you know he. is he is extremely high in the openness. category and I think. >> that's where things get kind of sticky. with some of these sort of super. experiencers because I think they are. often very credulous but that goes. handinhand with having a lot of weird. experiences. And so I think Whitley's. gotten stuff wrong. I I do. Um and you. know, hopefully don't come down on me,

UFO community, for for saying that. I. think he's I think he has um said some. wacky things that I'm like. >> like what? >> I don't Well, we talked about one of. them. I don't know if you remember that. >> Which one was it? >> It was like he said that there was a fly. that. >> Yeah, I remember that one. >> Yeah, I brought that one up before. because I remember watching a video. I'm. like, "Okay, what are you doing?" Cuz. there was a fly. He's like, "Is that a. man in a suit?". >> I remember that. I was like, "Wait, I. can't find that video." By the way, I've. tried very hard to find that video after. the fact. >> I I think very strange stuff does go on.

You know what he says? He says, "I was. picked as a node for disclosure because. of the plot." It would be plausibly. deniable. It's what you're talking about. where there's there is he's this hor he. was this horror writer. He was a fiction. writer before he had his encounter. >> which is also part of the problem. Incredible imagination. >> for sure. And then it's also part of his. ability to decide it's why communion was. a bestseller. So it's this weird like it. creates this like sort of cultlike. mythology. And then I look I know a lot.

of experiencers where I'm like I I know. that I mean I really believe them that. they've had experiences with you know. grays specifically and it's a very. common trope that they'll walk by. communion in like a Barnes & Noble. bookstore and it'll freak them out and. that will be like their own hypnotic. regression. They'll be like, "Oh," like. they've never seen a gray before. And. that's the first time they've seen a. gray. >> Yeah. The cover of the book is amazing. >> It's amazing. >> Who else had a book called Communion? Remember we had them on and we were. like, "Do you know that your book is the. same title as a Whitley Striber book,

but it's completely different." Who. remember that, Jamie? Someone like. fairly recently. We We have too many people on this. show. My hard drive's cooked. >> Yeah. JD Fans. >> JD Vans. That's right. Oh, he had a book. called while simultaneously calling. aliens possibly demons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He didn't really have a good. explanation for that. I pressed him on. that. >> and he kind of laughed very. uncomfortably cuz he didn't know what to. say. >> I I think with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I.

think he's a very nice guy. Uh. I think he's signaling to the tribe. >> it it is it's a political palemic. You're not looking at the data like he. says, I want to look into the UFO issue. I just haven't had the time. I actually. understand that there's a lot going on. in the world, you know, but it's also. you've had some time. So maybe, you. know, go look into it. But. >> I kind of understand it, but kind of. don't. >> I'm with you. I'm I be the first. >> plenty of time to go to church. Like. listen, bro, look into it.

>> Look into it. Exactly. >> To quote Eddie Bravo, look into it. It's. um weird that you would say it's demons, but I think that much like Tucker. Carlson has sort of alluded to this as. well. I think there's a certain aspect. to people that are believers, right? Okay. Okay, when I say believers, I'm. talking about like Christian believers, believers in the Bible, believer. believers in the the narrative that. comes along with Christianity, you know, and that for them there's like if you.

say I believe they're demons, like he's. on our side. There's, you know, there's. a there's you will you will attract. those people, they will re that will. resonate with certain people. And I do. think very unfortunately that there are. politicians that say things, we both. know this, that they don't necessarily. believe because they think that their. base wants to hear it. >> Totally. Yeah. You're you're a. traditionalist. You're like, why, you. know, why do we have to deal with this.

newagy You know, it's it's. just, you know, go back to the scripture. and they're demons. >> Oh, I like it. I like how this guy's. talking. >> Exa Exactly. And it's a it ends the. conversation because then it's like, okay, but if there are demons, there are. angels, too. And what is a demon? And. what is an angel? >> Also, where's the evidence that these. demons are doing anything demonic? Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is if you actually talk to a Jacqu. Valet, who I do think is probably as. deep as anybody as far as decades.

studying the stuff, going to, you know, 100 plus crash sites, talking to. probably thousands of experiencers. And. he'll often say, you know, some of this. stuff does pattern match to demonic. behavior where it is sort of this, you. know, getting you to chase your tail. It's, you know, they it's paralyzing. you. You know, in some cases it's sort. of, you know, angelic as well. In the. case of, you know, Mario and Michael, it's they say, "Do not fear. Do not. fear." That's exactly what Daniel and. the Bible heard, you know, on the banks.

of the Tigris. Do not fear is is is if. if the Bible if if the angels in the. Bible have like a, you know, a. catchphrase, it's do not fear. And so he. actually notes that there are some. similarities. So I think the there are. two failure modes, right? It's the end. the conversation like, you know, I'm. religious, I don't want to hear it sort. of thing. And then on the other side, it's like you can't even look at the. Bible as data or like any past mythology. or lore as possibly overlapping with, you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be.

the smell. Sulfur is a you know, so you. know what that being, you know, at. Virginia, you know, where uh that thing. crawling around that probably would have. been called a demon like a thousand. 2,000 years ago. There's a reason. >> That's when you look at it. It was like. a weird color body with red eyes and it. looked like it had like these tiny. little horns. >> Totally. By the way, I just interviewed. the Brazilian the former Brazilian. defense minister and I brought up. Virginia and he goes, "I believe it. happened.". >> Whoa. >> Yeah.

>> Whoa. >> So, we're making progress. >> Allegedly. >> Allegedly. >> Yeah. Well, then there's also the guy. who was physically in contact with it. that died. >> The guy Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. James Fox, you watch Moment of. Contact if you want to know what we're. we're talking about. Basically, you have. 15 to 20 people alive today in this. small town in Virginia, 130,000, you. know, person town. And they knew nothing. about Roswell, UFOs, you know, they're.

this town in Brazil. And in 1996, in. January, James Fox, this amazing researcher, documentarian, has triangulated the. flight path of this kind of tic-tac. object that came down. This uh uh this. ultralight pilot and geography teacher. named Carlos Doza was first on the. scene. He smells all, you know, these. sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell. He. actually holds the material apparently. and then it's it's taken from him by I. guess Issa is this you know nearby.

military base. 15 minutes later he has. this sort of Men in Black experience. where somebody comes up to him at a gas. station seems to know everything about. him and his family and swears him to. secrecy. Meanwhile, the beings are. running around this town and the beings. end up in this hospital, Regionalis. Hospital, and this uh uh neurosurgeon. who I've met and interviewed who was the. chief neurosurgeon basically like. probably the most senior guy in. Virginia, but I think even senior, you. know, in Brazil as far as, you know,

neurosurgeons go. Uh he uh says that he. he treated this being and that or I. guess he he was face tof face with the. being for 4 minutes and he was checking. the work of this of his colleague who. had treated the being who had done this. like minor surgery on the being. And. apparently if you go to this hospital. and you say like hey uh you know is this. the being where the ET was treated? They'll be like yeah yeah this is it. And and Virginia itself has a big. saucer. Yeah. >> You know that in homage to this entire.

event. It's amazing. >> Well, that's what's up. >> I was just I hate I hate doing this, but. >> please do. >> I just was looking up like, you know, uh. Perplexity I asked Virginia UFO incident. debunked or not. Never have done that. before and I've never heard this brought. up. Uh this is a known guy. His name is. Mudinho. from that area and he is in the exact. same position as the alien picture. >> Yeah. Weird. >> Yeah. But if you if you treated that guy.

for a head wound, you would you would. know that he's. >> and does he smell like sulfur? >> Man with disabilities who reportedly. seen crouching in heavy rain that they. did a 600page inquiry. dirty or unusual military. >> could he have flown in on a craft with. >> was he so stinky that when the the. officer brought him into the hospital, the guy died of a bacterial infection. they couldn't treat. >> That's the crazy thing. Then there's. this guy Marco Sherezy who's the soldier.

that grabbed the ET being and. apprehended it and his whole family. knows about this and then he gets an. autopsy. I I interviewed the guy who did. the autopsy and he was like this was. like this gnarly form of this bacteria. that I've never seen in my life and the. guy who's president of ITB IPD which is. the company that does the autopsy. report. He even said, "Yeah, I think it. was from the nail of the ET. accidentally." You know, the the being. didn't mean any harm to this guy, but. there was a puncture wound and it.

created this horrible, you know, viral. infection and he or bacterial infection. and he died of that. So crazy. >> Yeah. What. I know. it's so nuts. But I mean, >> the Virginia one is really crazy. >> It's really crazy. It's like there's so. many people that But then the problem is. like I would love to have talked to them. in 1996 individually without them. knowing that this was going to be a. global story and when they when they can. all sync up their memories.

>> I know. I know. And I'm praying that we. get a case like that, you know, at some. point where in it look, it's better than. Roswell 1947. You know, we're really. reading the tea leaves on that. So it's. 1996. You have 15 to 20 people alive who. have either either saw the craft or the. being. That's pretty amazing. >> Those young ladies there, there were. girls at the time and then when they get. interviewed later when they're grown. women and they're talking about the. incident, it's very strange. But I think. the strangest one is the cop who goes to.

the scene of the crash and he starts. weeping and he starts like really I'm. like okay well either this cop is the. best actor that's never been in a movie. ever or he's having a real response to. some sort of crazy memory of an event. >> that was Carlos Dza the geography. teacher and he led them around to your. point for two hours or something before. finding that spot and I I think if you. were acting you'd be like yeah that this. is the spot you wouldn't like be like. you wouldn't be like what Wait, there. was a white shed there and it's not here. anymore and confused and apparently.

there was a white shed there that was. removed or whatever and then finally. when he sees the spot you just see him. palpably break down. It's not this. unless Yeah. you know taking some acting. class on the side or something. >> Not that you're a genius. You're. the next Daniel D Lewis like what are. you doing wasting your time in Brazil? >> Exactly. >> Telling UFO stories. You go to Hollywood young man. Yeah. It's uh it's but it's also the problem. is I want to believe it. >> That's also the problem. >> Me too. >> I you know I don't want to believe it's.

like the thing about like Roswell in. particular. Roswell had it it has become. an industry right. >> there's the the whole tourist trap. thing. There's the little gray you can. buy things knickknacks at stores. >> You know it's like it's got this whole. connection to it. >> It does. It does. It's its own cottage. industry. It becomes people's. identities. So they often want to keep. it going and then sometimes like and. this other thing happened to me too.

Wait, you know, come back sort of thing. But. >> did you see the conversation that Travis. Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner? >> Yeah, that was on my buddy show Chris. Ramsey. >> What a weird way to do a show of a a. diner scene and like you have these two. guys sitting across from each other. It. was very odd how they did it, but I. didn't think that was necessary. But but. the conversation's interesting. It's. super interesting to hear the. similarities between, you know, their. accounts and yeah, things that line up. and they don't those two guys are also.

>> kind of again in that top tier of like. you spend time with them. I haven't. spent time with Travis Walton, but I. have with Bob and it's like you know. this it's like really hard to poke holes. in the story and they just to go back to. our original you know OG the top of this. conversation. like the pattern matching is just there. with him. He doesn't seem like a. bullshitter. >> Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter. at all. You know, I talked to him for. several hours and, you know, before and. after the show. And he he's also a guy.

who's had the same story for 50 years. >> It's the same story. >> Yeah. >> It's the It doesn't really vary. They. all took lie detector tests. One of the. guys that was a part of the crew. actually hated him and got in a fist. fight with him the day of the event and. he told the exact same story. >> Yeah. And he came back. There was. missing time and I think he came back. with a full grown beard. >> five days later. >> Five days later. Yeah. It's it's very. strange. >> But his clothes weren't dirty. He's like. >> And he had this insane story.

>> And they all stuck to the same story. Yeah. >> Well, they thought those guys killed him. at first, so they were they were. questioning. Yeah. >> Yeah. They like, "Where the is he?". And they're telling the story like, "What?" And then he comes back five days. later and tells the story and they're. like, "What is like what? Did you guys. all plan this?" Like, "What the is. going on?" But it doesn't seem like they. did. >> So trippy. And he like touched the craft. and it was had this electromagnetic. charge or something. He like bounced off. of it. >> Either he touched it or he got close to. it, right? He. >> got close to it. And that's common to.

Yeah, maybe he got close. I don't know. But that's common for UFO experiencers. where it's like you experience like. weird electromagnetic effects where it's. like almost like you're getting a a. sunburn where you get like you know UV. damage. It's actually in Close. Encounters of the uh Third Kind. It's. depicted where you know Richard Drifus. literally has a sunburn after his. encounter. >> on one side of his face where it was to. the left of his face because it was. outside. >> Exactly. Exactly. And Mario Woods also. in in Ellsworth, you know, South Dakota,

he also had had burns and he didn't know. where they came from. They took skin. samples. >> And what they discover? >> I don't know. I think that that part's. classified, unfortunately. God, wouldn't you just love to have an actual. experience yourself? I mean, imagine. thinking about all the time you spent. studying this and you haven't had an. actual experience yourself. I've seen. UFOs, but I haven't I know I haven't had. a close encounter of the of the third. kind. And.

>> what have you seen? >> I saw in Laurel Canyon I saw a UFO and. then in Silver Lake I saw you weird. places to see you in LA. >> What they look like? >> One was I I told one of them on on your. I think I told both of them on your. show, but but um one was like a school. bus sort of thing, which is really. weird. It was like um you know kind of. you know rectangular and uh it was. hovering like right above the treetops. It was not very high and it was sort of.

silently moving over the treetops and I. was with a friend at the time and she. saw the UFO like descend over the. treetops like like like go into some you. know we were in a residential area. It. was in Laurel Canyon and so that was. very strange. I didn't see that. I. didn't see it sort of descend. I just. saw it go over and it but it looked like. a floating again school bus like a thing. and there's like no visible propulsion. It was the strangest thing. >> How fast was it moving? >> That's hard for me to say. I don't know.

>> Not fast. >> Not fast. Yeah. >> Like it could have been a balloon. >> There's no way. >> really. >> No. >> Why? Floating like a balloon. >> Like a. >> Because it was like. >> helium balloon. >> Yeah. I get I get maybe it could have. been a balloon. >> A large balloon. Maybe. I don't know. It. was like It was right above the treetops. and you heard this sort of little hum. and I don't know. I don't I don't I. don't know. I don't think it was a. balloon, but maybe it was a balloon. >> I mean, think about blimps. Like, if you.

didn't know what a blimp was and you saw. that thing flying overhead, you're like, "Oh my god, I've I've seen plenty of. blimps and they're usually like really. high in the sky and this thing like. >> But they don't have to be." Right. That's how they come down. >> Yeah. Right. This thing was definitely not a plane, but I can't I don't remember the exact, you know, details as to what noise. >> like kind of like a a low bassy thing, but no like not normal not normal.

propulsion noise. >> Like bassy. >> like it was like a. >> like a. >> Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah. >> Like the fan that's moving the balloon, >> but not not at all like a you know a. chopper or a plane or anything. And. yeah, I don't know. As far as like it. just looked metallic. Like if it was a. blimp or something, it would have been. like perfectly like I don't know. It had. had some sophisticated signature. management to look like it was like, you. know, perfectly metallic and shiny. >> But like myar balloons,

they look very metallic. >> Yeah. But I think you could see that it. was floating. You could see that, you. know, possibly that it was moving with. the wind. >> And this didn't look like it was moving. with the wind at all. It looked like it. was sort of moving against the wind. >> I mean, not not necessarily moving. against, but moving agnostic to the wind. is what I'm trying to say. >> If there was a way where you could sit. down and conjure up an experience. with something, would you do it?

>> Conjure up an exper What do you mean? Like if you could in a meditative state. access. like whatever connection and and have. like a Betty and Barney Hill type. experience. >> I I wouldn't try to artificially do that. necessarily. I mean I would I would love. to have an experience but maybe. organically like if it's sort of you. know me meant for me sort of thing but. that is there are whistleblowers who've. come out this guy like Jake Barber for.

example that talks about essentially. programs forcing people systematically. to conjure up these sorts of experiences. >> right that's why I asked. >> okay yeah uh yeah no and I I think. there's so I think there's a long. tradition of communing. with these sorts of things that goes. back to like kind of meaba cobalistic. practices you know neoplatanists would. call it the like you know kind of. communing with deities.

>> and I don't think it's a coincidence. that I think there are aspects of you. know Steven Greer say what you will. about the guy C5 there are aspects of. that that are maybe similar to some of. these sort of protocols. >> that involve sort of communing with. these things. >> and traditionally you're not supposed to. do this stuff unless you are like fully. like of pure intent. You're probably. older. Like you're not supposed to start. Cabala, for example, until you're 35. Um, really? Yeah. I think you're. supposed to be married as well. You're.

supposed to be like very rooted in. reality. >> Um, >> interesting. >> Yeah. So, and then there's like. >> that's like a Jewish mysticism, right? >> That's a Jew a Jewish mysticism, but. there are Christian versions of it. And. you know I I think there yeah there. there there versions of it kind of. across history. The neoplatonists had a. virgin a version of it as well. So you. know I think this is uh something that. yeah I think the Jews had it with you. know Ezekiel's wheel and the the kind of. meabah texts but I think there's there's.

more. >> Yeah. Well the weird stuff when you get. into the Bible itself is the stuff that. wasn't put in the Bible. >> I know what you're going to say. The. Enoch stuff. >> That's so weird. >> The Enoch stuff is really weird. >> Yeah. >> And when they find it in these clay. tablets in Kuman along with. books in the Bible, like the book of. Isaiah was also in there. Like, okay, what what was that? >> And how and how much that sounds like. Greek mythology, like these gods sort of.

mating with mankind. >> Yeah. And apparently it's still in the. Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has. the all of the books of Enoch, all the. different tales of the Watchers and the. Book of the Watchers and all that stuff. where they came down and mate with the. daughters of men. >> and created the Nephilim that's in the. Ethiopian Bible. >> That is so trippy. >> It's so trippy. >> It's so trippy. And then they create the. Nephilim. And then you get into the.

Timothy Alberina stories which you know. I know he was on your podcast where. there might be giants in Afghanistan. that the Air Forcees encountered in the. early 2000s and you had Devon Lat on as. well. >> You know was he a famous arm wrestler is. that right? >> Who served the Canadian special forces. in Afghanistan and saw a man there was. like massive. He said he was like 8t. tall. >> and uh I think a a mutual friend of ours. Brigham Beer shout out ways to well. they're the best. uh he has an employee. who also I think was special forces in.

Afghanistan. and he says that there were there were I. think you know large beings there like. giants there as well. So, it's like a. bunch of like anecdotal and that's just. us. That's just, you know, >> so. >> yeah, it's super weird. And do. you know that these uh the the the. latest. um take on the the Dennisovvens or. Denisvens, however you want to say it. Um you know, which is a very recent.

discovery. I I think the first even. recognition that there was another type. of human called Denisven. I think that's. how they pronounce it. I always say. Dennis Oven. Um, they believe they might. be much larger than human beings now. They used to think that they were squat. like Neanderthalss and thick brows and. but now they realize their heads were. much larger than ours and that these. could potentially been 8 foot tall. people. >> I didn't realize that. That's crazy.

>> This is fairly recent. So when was the. dis put this into perspect uh perplexity. when was the discovery of denisovvens or. denisven. >> I want to say it's real recent like. maybe. 2016 or something like that like real. recent. >> where they didn't even know that there. was this branch of the human species. >> I feel like we've discovered a large. percentage of homminids. >> 2010 there go okay so okay they found it.

in Siberia in 2008. Um, it was. identified as a previously unknown group. of archaic humans in 2010. The key. fossil, small finger bone, has been. excavated from the Denisova cave in. Siberia in 2008, but DNA analysis. published in 2010 revealed that it. belonged to a population distinct from. both Neanderthalss and modern humans. Um, I think they have more now than just. the fingerbone. And I think that is. where they're getting at. Um I think.

they have skulls. Uh varies w highest known. Oh this is. people who have the DNA. >> So there some DNA estimations. Melanesian populations especially people. with ancestry in Papa New Guinea and. nearby Pacific Islands roughly four to. six% of their genomes. That's interesting. Um, what uh let's uh find out how many. bones they have available.

>> because I think there's I think there's. brow ridge bones and there's skull bones. that seem to indicate that it had a. larger larger skull than humans. >> and they think how much bone has been. recovered or found. Let's find out. >> Very little. M. >> uh Denisven are known for a small number. of fragmentaryary fossils, not complete. skeletons. Uh. do they have skull? They have a mandible.

partial lower jaw from the Tibetan. plateau. It was identified as Denisven. through ancient protein analysis rather. than recoverable Denosan DNA. No complete Denisovven skull or. skeleton. Um just Google I mean uh. excuse me search for me um Denisan skull. like see if there's images cuz I think. there's a brow.

>> like. >> the problem is it's like you're you're. looking for stuff. Yeah. >> So like what is that? Is that just a. recreation of what it looks like? >> It seems like a recreation. >> but this is what they think it looked. like. >> It's like a Eugene Levy situation. huge. eyebrows. Look at the the brow ridge. >> Yeah. >> So, how much is this real? And what is. this AI? Like, what is this? >> Well, is perplexity not caught up to the. latest evidence? Like.

>> in Peru, paraca skulls are 30%. >> higher volume, I think, often than. normal skulls. >> Some of them are, right? Some of them. are. That's the weird with the. elongated heads. That gets real weird. This has a fairly elongated head as. well, but it's uh not like upwardly. It's It seems to like move towards the. back, but has a pretty large. So, is. that an actual. >> I don't know. I'm trying to figure out. So if that's an actual Denisan skull, it.

seems like Perplexity is relying on. older data or older papers. >> Cuz I I I do think that this is part of. why they're saying that they think they. might have been much larger. >> What's going on? This is natural history. What is being. eaten? >> This is a hyena bone. >> that they were eating hyena bones. Indeed, that could just pulled this. picture off of this website. I don't. know if. >> Okay. Fossil evidence of a mysterious.

southern denisven yet to be found. >> A replica of a homo erectus cranium. So, okay. That's from Indonesia. >> I know, but I'm just saying that's this. picture showed up in. >> Right. >> So, that's what that is. But so, what is. that image that of the prominent brow. ridge like that one? Yeah, >> I know. I'm trying to track it down. That's coming from a Nature article that. I couldn't get into. It was paywalled. So, if they haven't found this much, then I think based off of the pictures. I'm seeing, they probably built it off.

of this tooth they found. >> and then expand it out to here because. there's a little picture of a tooth. right there. But, >> right, I don't know. So, that seems like. a jawbone that they found. So, if that if it turns again, we're. talking about something that's recently. discovered. They they only knew that. this thing existed 16 years ago, which. is really a part of the problem with. this whole term fossil record. You know, we like to think of the fossil record as. being a library. It's not. It's like.

it's really limited in terms of like how. many things that die leave fossils. It's. a tiny fraction. >> Same with the archaeological record. It's the same thing. >> Well, at least the archaeological. record, we have physical stuff. Like we. can look at, you know, Sakai Wan. We can. look at the pyramids. We can we don't. really know what happened and who built. it, but at least there's like physical. stuff there that defies explanation. >> But if you have a cataclysm, >> right? >> Right. >> And we probably did during the ice age, you know. >> Yeah. More than likely. More than.

likely. The idea that we didn't have a. cataclysm seems silly at this point. It. seems like there's there's so much. physical evidence. >> And it's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find, and the. longer we go, the older things get. archaeologically. And it's actually. >> predictable. Like it makes sense that. both of those would be the case. Like. obviously our. >> abilities to like map and have sensors. and like figure this stuff out is. increasing and lower in the sediment. layer of any sort of dig is going to be. like older stuff. >> Yes. >> So archaeology is 200 years old.

Literally the the the discoveries of the. you know Babylonian cities 200 years ago. cities. Yeah. >> Have you seen I think he's an Italian. guy. There is a a new paper that's being. published about the dating of the. pyramids and he's uh relying on erosion. evidence. >> Yeah. I think relative erosion method. >> Yes. >> Donini I think is. >> that's exactly him. And he pushes it way. back. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> He pushes it back as recently as I god I.

want to say like 16,000. and then the highend is 35,000 plus. >> Yeah. It's crazy. which is like, wait, what? What are you. talking about? Like, this is a 35,000. year old building. Like, what does that. even mean? Like, who who. >> speaking of Did you see that they. retracted this? >> Oh, Filip Yes, he contacted me about. this. He's very upset. >> Yeah. >> Uh they they retracted it with uh. without any explanation, without any.

justification. My. I'd like to call it nuanced take is that. I think I don't think he's lying. I. don't think he's a fraud, but I think. that he needs to just open source his. method because basically you have this. synthetic aperture radar Doppler. tomography which is synthetic aperture. radar is a known technique for you know. radar imaging and it radar images at. like very fine resolution and then you. have this ability to measure micro.

vibrations that transmit into the. satellite signal. The thing that is only. his, his and only his is this beyondi. method which is this software where he. is able to deduce these structures you. know underneath the earth based on that. So do I think he's lying about the grand. sasso laboratory which is you know this. other sort of I think particle. accelerator national lab out there that. he was able to like perfectly measure. and. >> 1.2 kilometers into a mountain. >> into a mountain. I I I would really hope.

not and I don't think so. And But then. at the same time, I think it's like, dude, you gotta like you're you're. talking about like a Nobel Prize or. something here. Like just just let it. open like either you either have to get. really really rich and keep it closed. source or the preference that I would. have and I think that would be best for. humanity is just open source the thing. And you know, I think it's his life's. work. So I think he's a little. possessive around it. But that would be. the one thing where I'm like, dude, just. let it let it out or let somebody else.

replicate it. >> Interesting. because um they've used. this method to identify structures that. are known to exist and um they Right. >> Yeah. And I think the uh what is it the. sha the Osiris shaft I think. >> Yes. Exactly. >> So and it's and it got the right. dimensions and if it's correct in and if. he's telling the truth about what it was. able to deem from the particle. accelerator when it was looking at the. part particle accelerator it got the.

exact dimensions of it. that it knew. where it was. And so it's like. >> we need to dig. >> We need to do something. Well, there's. all those that's one thing that he. brought up on the podcast. those shafts. that exist around there. >> that have been filled up with debris and. sand and dirt over time that they need. to clean that out and get down in. there and find out like what is cuz we. know that there's all these subterranean. tunnels and passages that are all around.

Egypt like for sure they know that that. labyrinth exists. Yes. That that. Herododus discovered and that he talked. about in great detail. They knew they. know from ground penetrating radar these. there's these great chambers in there. >> Even Zahi Hawas will admit that there. are tunnels underneath the Sphinx, right? >> So like yeah, I think more likely than. not there is something underneath the. pyramids and then we just have to dig. We got to get down there. And if you're. Egypt and you're the Ministry of. Culture, that's the most GDP boosting.

thing you could think of. >> God, could you imagine if both uh is it. what's the other guy's name? be the. Italian guy with the erosion guy. >> Uh I think Donini. >> Donini. If Donini and Beyond, first of. all, what a great. >> Italian duo. Like if if these two guys. from Italy have cracked two different. things, one of them with erosion science. and the other one with ground. penetrating Doppler tomography. If those. guys are correct, you you're going to.

have like an a gigantic group of new. people that want to come and check out. Egypt. That would be so awesome. Yeah. >> But you have to get past these. gatekeepers of the timeline. The. gatekeepers of the timeline really want. to insist that 2,500 BC is about as good. as it gets. >> Yeah. And it's like it's all good. It's. the the land that modern Egypt is on. Like that it's fine. Like you can sort. of like take pride in the fact even if. it's older and it's not necessarily like.

>> it's still Egypt. >> It's still Egypt. It's amazing. >> What's really dumb about the critics of. these theories? They all want to. attribute it to a bunch of different. people. Like you and I are alien. cooks and we're not trying to. We're. saying like no, it's probably people had. a super advanced civilization in that. part of the world a long time ago. And. what you're getting is multiple. generations of people after the fact. trying to recreate some of these ancient. structures. and that these ancient. structures probably predated whatever.

civilization existed at 2,500 BC. >> Yeah. And you you have to throw. spaghetti at the wall. Like it's like. it's your duty to speculate because the. conventional narratives don't make any. sense. >> at all. >> At all. And you have people grasping. this rather there's a French guy John. Pierre Houdan who is like you know civil. engineering chops and he's talking about. like an external ramp but then an. external ramp would you know the incline. would be too too high for these you know. megaton bricks you know blocks so then.

you end up with an internal ramp as. well. So it's like we are gra that is. like the best explanation right. conventionally and so let's let's try to. figure it out and let's be a little. creative and we don't need to like you. know stay so narrow like all these. skeptics are like the they're they're. you know attack dogs for what the. problem is they don't want these Jimmy. Corsettes and Michael Buttons and all. all of these people that have enormous.

following on online to have any point. They don't want that. They want to. dismiss them outright, which is why they. always use the same poratives. They. always call them racists. And the white. supremacy is one that they they've. attached to Graham, which is hilarious. cuz he's married to an Indian woman. It's the whole thing is so stupid, but. he's the most non-racist person you're. ever going to meet in your life. He's. just completely open-minded. And also. that doesn't take away all the factual. data, all the stuff that's like the.

stuff that's really weird that's hard to. describe. When you're talking about a. structure that is perfectly aligned. almost to true north, south, east, and. west, and has 2,300,000. stones, and used to be covered in smooth. limestone, and somehow or another was. the greatest structure that human beings. have ever created. N is bare minimum. 4,500. years old. That is a mind And.

anybody who says that's not a mind. And when you're talking about some of. the stones like particularly in the. king's chamber that are hundreds of tons. or or a hundred tons or 80 tons or. whatever they are and from hundreds of. miles away through the mountains with no. roads, no heavy machinery and they're. placed way the up on the ceiling of. this place perfectly. Totally. There's. also the weird mind of the. sarcophagus in the king's chamber, which.

aligns with the same dimensions where. you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in. it. >> No way. >> Yes. Really? >> Oh, there's a lot of people that believe. this. There's a real problem with the. measuring of radioactivity, too. They. try to say there's there's a a higher. level of radioactivity inside the. sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But. the problem is when people talk about. radiation and stones, like stones are. they have a certain level of radiation. just inherently,

>> you know, like you can like. the sun has radiation like there's. >> geer counters can go off random. Yeah. But the the people that are like the. real they're really out there. They. think that that might have been the. positioning for the Ark of the Covenant. and that it measures like if you look at. the Bible's description of the. dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, it fits conveniently inside the. sarcophagus in the king's chamber. >> Wa, that's crazy. >> It is crazy. What's also crazy that.

Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible. and the the these Ethiopian religious. people who have uh supposedly this group. of people that are supposed to watch. over the Ark of the Covenant and that. they are in possession of it and that. these people that watch over it, they. all develop cataracts and they can only. do it for a little while and then they. wind up dying. So they have like short. tenures as the watchers of this whatever. the this object is that they're.

calling the Ark of the Covenant. >> Stories of their faces getting mangled. if they walk inside. He was so afraid. This was actually I think one of his. first articles for like a magazine. before he got into all this. >> This is how it got him into it in the. first place. >> Got into it in the first place. You. know, another crazy story is um I think. it's uh Sir James Bruce was looking for. the Ark of the Covenant and he found the. book of Enoch, but he was searching for. the Ark of the Covenant. But yeah, they. think it's an Axom Ethiopia and there. are Templar crosses I believe on a. church there as well. And so and Graham.

talks about this and so that's his. connection because they you know there. obviously legends of the Templars being. these sort of knights that guarded you. know uh you know after after the. destruction of the temple, the Ark of. the Covenant. And so maybe they actually. did make it all the way down to. Ethiopia, >> which is wild. >> It's so wild. If that thing was actually. in the center of the sarcophagus in the. king's chamber in the pyramid, whatever that thing is, >> it's so it's so I mean the the one maybe.

counterargument or something I'd be. curious about would be the Nazis were. obsessed with the arc of the like the. Indiana Jones plot is like legit. Himmler would go on these weird quests. or whatever around this stuff. >> And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that. war around around that time I believe, right? Or like why wouldn't the Nazis. just go in and try to take this object? >> Maybe they weren't aware. >> Maybe they weren't aware. Who knows? >> This guy Olenorf says he went and saw it.

in 1941. >> and that it's a replica. He stated that he gained access in 1941. because he spoke classic, how do you say. that? Gue and appeared serious. However, he asserted the box inside was empty and. described it as an empty middle to late. medieval replica rather than the true. biblical artifact. So, he's the only guy. that's gained access. And this was in. 1941. He's a British officer during. World War II and later a professor of.

Ethiopian studies at the University of. London. Interesting. >> I want to know the details. Like how. does he know that it's an artifact. >> or it's a replica. >> or it's Yeah. Or sorry that's a replica. rather. Yeah. >> There are I did look this up just I. think yesterday. >> Oh, you did? Rabbit hole. >> Captain rabbit hole over here. >> I was I was I found this rabbit hole cuz. I was trying to find out where happened. to the staff of Moses. I just was. thinking about weird things that existed. in history. And also the Ark of the. Covenant. Last time it was actually. known where it was was 586 BC.

>> So like when Jesus was around, no one. knew where it was. >> That's interesting. >> The wall 586. So hundreds of years. before his. >> 600 years before Jesus. >> Wow. >> Wow. Yeah. I know. The walls of Jericho. were supposed to come down I think the. arc of the covenant. >> Babylonian u destruction of Jerusalem. They tore down the cathedral which also. I stumbled across something called the. Madaba map. Have you ever heard of that? >> No. >> Uh, it was found.

it's a mosaic of like ancient Jerusalem. found around 6 CE. And it shows I' I've never heard of this. before. So, I was actually trying to. show you like the best way to describe. it, but it's all in like ancient Greece. It was a mosaic underneath the floor in. a different church that they found while. they were about to make a new church. So, they were doing like reconstruction. and they found this map of ancient It's. pointing things out here. This isn't the.

best way to describe it. I'm sorry, but. um they've mapped it all and found. things that that I think it was found in. like 1895, right around turn of the century. So, it. shows like where Jerusalem was, where. all these things are in reference to. each other and. >> all these places that were in the Bible. and whatnot. >> Wow. And I guess people didn't know. about them and that's when some of the. stuff is, you know, getting validated. Jordan's Madaba map. >> That's what it looks like. That's the. actual image. >> Yeah, it's really I mean it's old. school, you know, I guess tiles and.

little pieces of fragments of different. things that is artistic was covered up. probably multiple times. >> So wild. Well, then there's the. weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant and. the dimensions match this object that's. on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where. supposedly it landed in the Bible. >> What? >> Yes. Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bunch of. people that firmly believe that this. object on Mount Ararat is that the uh. Moses's. >> staff. This one is. So, this it ex it.

turns out I don't know if this is real. This is where I was the rabbit hole was. getting real weird here. It's in a a. palace in Istanbul, I believe, where. there's other uh relics. It's like the. palace of relics or something like that. There's uh the sword of the prophet. David from 10 BC. Somehow they got like. David and Goliath. >> What? >> King David. Yeah. And there's a bunch of. things from Muhammad there. There's like. a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard.

Um, well, I don't and that's what I don't to. say it's not real. I don't know. It just. looks like a stick. But the the biblical. like uh descriptions of it are that it. turned into a serpent serpent at one. point. You know, this is what parted the. Red Sea. H go to the Mount Ararat stuff. because the Mount Ararat stuff is really. weird. There there's even like a whole. touristy center that you can go there. where they describe it as being the the. the landing spot of Noah's Ark. But.

apparently. >> what's weird is the um analysis of the. ground underneath it and that there's. organic material that aligns with the. the dimensions of the boat. >> No way. >> Yeah, it's really weird. Well, just the. object itself, like whatever the. this is in eastern Turkey. >> Yes, it's on Mount Ar. >> Just the dimensions itself. weird. >> Like what is that thing that's up there?

And so when they anal analyze it, like. you see it, it has like what appears to. be chambers and then also what what. appears to be the remnants of some sort. of organic material, which would be wood. that was dis that was used in. construction of this thing. >> That's silly. There was something recent. about it though. Um, see if you can find. like news. Go to news. >> This is what I thought I saw. I saw this. and I don't uh I just seen this video. where someone's inside and they're. claiming this has got to be a claim cuz.

I don't know that. how they got here and where this video. came from. >> He's going. and like showing think when you get down. here they show like pieces of wood. That's Noah's dick. >> Yeah, he's showing pieces of wood. >> or what looks I mean it's uh. >> Noah arc scans. >> God, how much wood is left from 2,000. years ago or more? >> Piece on Instagram, I think, where it. was not the entire 45minute video.

>> There was some news of the analysis of. that that I saw online. >> April 22nd. This my bet. >> Researcher believes Noah's arc found in. Turkey after new underground scans. Yeah. So, researchers working in Turkey. say fresh scan data, this is from April, uncovered what appears to be tunnels. inside the long debated landform. bolstering their case the site may be a. man-made object they believe to be. Noah's Ark. I do believe this is a real.

decayed buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship. And we're doing our. best to convince the skeptics and show. the world this site. The tricky thing is. for carbon dating you do need organic. material. >> Oh yeah. And not only that, it's like. the tricky thing is like the whole story. doesn't make sense. You. >> take two of each animal and then what. happens? Animals eat other animals. So. how does that work out? >> You you've got to. >> you know in the Bible they're supposedly. waited they waited until the animals uh.

gave birth to a bunch of different. before they ate them. >> It's insane. >> Okay. What what are you a kid? It's this like I mean it literally. sounds like you know like a child wrote. a story. >> It's very very goofy. But then you get. into the fact that there are like 400 or. so flood myths across disperate cultures. some of whom never had contact with one. another. >> Yes, definitely. And then you also get. into the idea that it's not maybe the. whole world that flooded. It's this.

immediate area. And that this idea of he. took two of each animal. Maybe he just. took enough animals so he could sustain. agriculture afterwards and these other. animals did not go extinct. And then. maybe the story over time becomes he got. giraffes walk there from Africa. Like where where are you getting horses? You know, how how are you getting. eagles? Like how you getting everybody. on this thing? It doesn't even make. sense. >> And real discoveries are often motivated. by myth. like motivated by Homer and.

Herododus stories about the pelpeneisian. war. You had this guy German businessman. Hinrich von Schlimman spent all his. money looking for Troy and he eventually. found it. >> Yeah. Which is wild. >> Wild. Another story would be you know um. Plato talking about this flood. He's. talking about it in the Atlantis. context. Obviously it's a it's a. dialogue. Um, and it's I think the Tmus. and Creta dialogue and this is told at a. mythos festival uh 600 BC and they say. 9,000 years ago this great flood.

happened and then you line it up and. that that's melt water pulse 1b which is. probably the flood that got us out of. the ice age. So to discount myth. entirely as like non-historical I think. is throwing the baby out with the. bathwater. >> Right. The timeline aligns with the. great with the theory of the younger dus. impact theory. >> Exactly. the great flood and the younger. Jus impact theory align with the. timeline that Plato how the could. Plato have known when he's saying 9,000. years like how how is it so perfectly.

aligned. >> bad on it seems a little convenient. >> yeah I think if there was a Noah's arc. it was probably well first of all how. does he know it's coming how long does. it take to make this boat you know. that's where it gets really weird like. does this guy actually have a. premonition is he actually like attuned. to some sort of psychic energy or does. God or for lack of a better term. actually talk to this guy and say, "Hey. dude, >> some is about to go down." And. didn't it take him.

>> I want to say the biblical account is it. took him a hundred years to make it. >> Oh, I don't even know. I know that is. back when they were like living for. hundreds and. >> hundreds of years 77 years old and was. 182 when he had Noah. normal. >> normal stuff was us. >> David Sinclair, help us. Let's get back. there. >> Well, this is this is the real thought. is if David Sinclair is correct, and I. think he is, if they can figure out a. way to uh somehow another access.

whatever part of the human genome allows. us to age or causes us to age and. reverse that or change that. How do we. not know that? If you got a civilization. that could build the pyramids, how do we. not know that these people were also. capable of extending lifespan? >> 100%. Yeah. And if knowledge gets lost. and we're now figuring out Horvath. clocks, DNA methylation clocks, biological age versus chronological age, I'm sure you talked to Brighgam about. all sorts of like novel crazy things.

he's looking into with stem cells, you. know, and the amazing things they do. Like why was that not necessarily. discovered before and just erased from. the historical record? >> Easily could have been if if there is a. cataclysmic disaster and we do have a. hyper advanced civilization that's. capable of engineering feats that we. still can't replicate today which I. think is the case because there's a lot. of people say we could build the. pyramids today. you. Okay. you. No one has. Go do it. Go do it.

Shut your mouth. The biblical account, Noah and his family were in the ark for. about a year, often calculated as. roughly 370 days. Wow, they were in that. boat for a year. >> That's crazy, >> bro. That sucks. You think those guys, they're stuck in Iran have it bad? Uh, Genesis dates their entry to the 17th. day of the second month of Noah's 600th. year and their exit on the 27th day of. the second month of his 601st year. It. rained for 40 days and 40 nights.

Um, how long did it take him to build the. ark? Says 120 years. Does not give a pre. precise construction time. The commonly. repeated 120 years is a traditional. interpretation of Genesis 6:3 rather. than explicit statement that. construction itself lasted 120 years. M. >> m well it's all you know you're getting. into when you're getting into ages like. that what's really weird is it's not.

just the Christian Bible or the Old. Testament or that has these long. extended lifespans that's where you get. really weird because both the ancient. Egyptians when you know the zeppedi and. then when you get into the ancient. Samrian kings list like they when you go. the further back these. were living thousands and thousands of. years raining for thousands of years and. then after the flood. >> you start seeing ages align with modern.

human ages. >> which is really weird. >> really weird. >> it's like okay what and so the way. archaeologists dismiss it they say oh. that was just myth okay but but you're. along with this myth particular with the. Samrians you have actual historical. kings that had actual historical reigns. that are depicted in the same the same. texts. So like what's going on 100% and.

there I I think natural selection is a. real theory. There are people who like. deny it and I think it is a locally. extremely useful legit theory but. there's a great philosopher of uh. science called Carl Pauper and he had. this whole thing of he called them. materialist promisory notes where you. have issues in evolution natural. selection you have punctuated equilibria. this sort of rapid speciation in the. fossil record things that are very hard. to explain and we just like to fill in. the gaps and we don't know you know.

there was actually a really interesting. um German uh guy named I think it was. Richard Goldmid and he had this idea of. he was an evolutionary theorist and he. had this idea of hopeful monsters and so. you'd get these mating between. interspecies so you know a mule would be. a good example or like a tiger and a l. like a liger and every once once in a. while like it would like hit this. ecological niche and like you know. actually make sense for the local. ecology and then it would sort of. persist and I think he's largely been.

debunked but I spoke with this DARPA. dude. who was like, I can say this because I. we didn't end up pursuing it, but you. know the movie The Shape of Water, the. GMO del Torto, he was like at one point. we were thinking about stuff like that, like interspecies. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I don't know if. it was like humans and other species, but it was like inspired by this guy. Richard Goldmitt. Well, you know, the. Russians were considering making a. hybrid between a human and a champ.

chimpanzeee for war. >> That's crazy. I know Putin's talked. about killer dolphins. >> No, this was uh God, was it World War. II? It was World War II, right? So, it. was World War II. Um, who was it? Was it Stalin? >> That's crazy. >> Uh, well, >> do we don't know if we would know. officially. I just remember the guy was. doing it on his own for sure. >> Would have been Stalin told him to do. it. I don't remember. >> See, see if you can find it. So they. were So the idea was like, look, Russia.

lost like 20 million men during World. War II. And I think the idea is like, why wouldn't it be better if people. didn't die? Why don't we develop. warriors? And so I think they were. trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid. specifically designed for wolves. Now, like I don't know if it was official cuz. he got in. >> he got in trouble for uh seeking vol. like um not telling the female. volunteers what was going on. >> Oh Jesus. >> Could you imagine?

>> Stay put honey. I'm just going to stick. something up there and wonderful things. will happen. >> Jesus Christ. >> Notorious Soviet era attempt, but no. human ape hybrids were ever created. But. yes, it was a real attempt. Russian. Soviet biology Ilia evenov proposed. using artificial insemination to test. whether humans and great apes could. produce offspring in the mid 1920s. Okay, so it was um after World War I. Uh. Soviet support, he traveled to French. Guinea and inseminated several female.

chimpanzees with human sperm. None. became pregnant. He later sought to. reverse the experiment by inseminating. women with ape sperm. Historical. accounts indicate he considered doing so. without consent in Guinea, but colonial. authorities blocked the plan. Back in. Russia, he sought female volunteers, but. the available adult male ape died before. the procedure could occur. So, no such. insemination proced proceeded. >> Sounds like a great person. >> Yeah. What great guy, wonderful dude.

But it's like kind of crazy that that. was I mean imagine if it worked and then. they just created like a million of them. and just armed them. >> Well, also where are we headed with. Crisper and the ability to, you know, go, >> right? Well, also what the is going. to stop them from turning around and. taking over Russia? >> Like why would they listen to you, >> right? >> Like they have you're giving them guns. They're way more violent. They're super.

territorial. They're way stronger. And. also, they're gonna recognize that you. made them to go die. And they're going. to be really resentful of these. pink little fleshy water. balloons of of meat and tissue that are. so vulnerable compared to them. >> It's like, yeah, it's like you created. me. It's like it's Planet of the Apes. >> It's it's Planet of the Apes. It's it's. also the way people talk about AI. It's. like very analogous. >> Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. It's.

uh we are always meddling. >> We're always meddling. >> But which makes me think something more. advanced would probably meddle with us. That's right. >> Just do it a little bit more subtly. >> And they would do it at the bound. Like. it makes sense that UFOs to me would. show up around nuclear sites because. those are the Archimedes lever of. destruction on those are the points of. most leverage, the hinge points of. civilizational collapse. It is not a. coincidence that Mario and Michael were. abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and.

saw this thing hovering above a live. hydrogen bomb. >> That feels like it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it like if you were. governing a system, you would look at. those nodes, >> right? >> You look at the actually there's a a. great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman. and he says if you're like guarding if. you're a simulator and you're guarding. the simulation, you look at the exit. paths. So I think about two exit paths. in our sort of simulation. One would be. high energy physics. So particle. accelerators, high voltage.

experimentation and nuclear like really. like stuff where you're really pushing. at the boundaries of spaceime. So I. think that's why these things show up at. national labs, nuclear sites, a lot of. like really hardcore kind of. experimentation and then consciousness. I think that would be the other exit. path. And so that's why I think these. things show up when we're sort of. communing with this higher thing, >> right? And it also makes sense why they. show up when you're sleeping, >> right? Like if you're having these. encounters, like all these abduction. experiences,

the great many of them happen at night, >> right? >> Yeah. And it's an open question as to. why is it evolutionarily adaptive as for. us to sleep, right? >> It doesn't really make sense. >> It's terrible. >> It's terrible. And we're we sleep deeper. than like most animals. And so we can be. walked up on by predators and. >> there's so many nocturnal predators. >> Absolutely. stupid idea. >> Why wouldn't that get selected out? Maybe something important happens during. sleep. Like who knows? >> Yeah. >> But like it see it seems like.

>> Yeah. We don't understand any of that. stuff. The dreaming sleeping and it's. probably adaptive in some way we don't. understand. >> Yeah. And like what is happening when. we're sleeping? I told you about my. crazy dream. the one crazy dream that I. had that still to this day kind of it's. very foggy now because it's months and. months after the fact. But that the day. of that dream I was shook. >> that almost. >> I was really shook. >> It almost feels like uh if I were to. analyze that dream it's like uh they.

were giving meat to these crocodiles in. the water or something. So it was like. it was like our limbic sort of reptilian. cuz in every man you have your sort of. reptile self and then you have your like. more aspirational self or something and. maybe they were sort of like holding. that at bay and they were you said to me. you were like these beings these like. future human alien looking beings were. telling you like this is a brittle. experiment like this whole thing you've. got set up this could end tomorrow like.

we're here sort of protecting you. >> Yeah. There was a very flimsy barrier. between the crocodiles and whatever was. in the water. And uh I was like, "That's. it. That's the only thing that's. stopping. This is like a like like a. like a traffic cone and some. tape or something like that." Like some. plastic bars. It was like not I don't. remember specifically, but it was like I. remember being very uncomfortable with. how little protection there was to stop. those things from coming out of the. water. >> So fascinating. >> But also the weirdness of them like.

their bodies. They were like very. slender and kind of tall, but like no. muscle at all. Like no strength at all. and larger heads and very oddlooking, almost Asian looking. >> Very weird. And they were playing with. me a little bit like spooking me. Haha. >> And it was very strange, but it was so. vivid. That's the weird part. >> That's what's so trippy to me where I'm. like maybe it was an experience. It's. hard to say. It's impossible to. declaratively say it wasn't right.

>> Well, it's hard to know what a dream is. in the first place. >> Yeah. >> Like what is going on when you have. vivid dreams in the first place? >> Totally. Yeah. What? Yeah. What is that? >> It seems like you're working out. problems. Like a lot of times people are. working out issues and they're why they. say sleep on it. >> I think there's something to that old. wives, you know, the the old wisdom of. sleep on it. It's almost like you're. because it does feel like sometimes like. issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them. or you're like you're you're like.

working them out by experiencing them, but in like a padded walls sort of way. in the dream where like you don't want. to work that out in 3D reality. And so. it's sort of adaptive in that sense or. something. >> maybe. I don't know. >> Who knows? Yeah. >> But it's weird that I've had so many. dreams that have been, you know, even. crazy dreams like, "Wow, that was nuts.". But nothing like kept me from going back. to sleep. >> Yeah, that's what's so trippy about it. is like you went and worked out right. after. Right. >> I had I could not sleep. I laid in bed. for like an hour afterwards trying to go. back to sleep. I'm like I am not going.

back to sleep. Like whatever the. that was was way too real. Like way more. real than any dream I'd had before. >> If I was an alien or a future human, I. would definitely visit you. Whatever it is, it it if I mean whether. or not it's my imagination just hit a. burst of like serotonin and dopamine and. neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it. was that created this very vivid thing. It's either that my super hyperactive. imagination or an encounter. It's hard.

to know what it was, but what it was was. very different than any other dream that. I've ever had before. >> Yeah. Well, I that's I think that's a. beautiful like that's all you can say. about it. >> Yeah. I mean, but that's being honest. Yeah. And that's but it also is the. problem with someone having a legitimate. experience. Like how much do they. elaborate? How much do they expand? How. much do they try to justify their. experience rather than saying I don't. know what the that was? >> Yeah, totally. I think I think in many. cases the honest thing is I I don't.

know. I don't know what the beings were. I don't know where they were from. And. it's so interesting that we snap to grid. all of these experiences into this sort. of alien motif. And it's why the. Pentagon now uses nonhuman intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous because. it could be AI or an animal or. something. But. >> I wonder why they changed that. >> I think they changed it because they. don't know definitively that it's. extraterrestrial. And the office that I think in bad faith. likes to debunk this stuff, the all. domain anomalies resolution office that.

just likes to pour core. It's the modern. blue book basically. They often say we. have no evidence of extraterrestrial. visit visitation because they they hinge. it on that conclusion. That is a. conclusion. >> There's a lot of anomalous data. There's. stuff showing up at our nuclear sites. everywhere. >> Donald Trump reportedly told inner. circle aliens are living in Earth's. oceans. >> I've heard he said that too. That als he. alluded to that. Remember the Jersey. drone flap in November of 2024? He kind. of alluded to that. He goes, "We know. they're coming from a garage. It's a.

weird place. >> It's a garage. We have no idea what they. are, but they're in the ocean.". >> This is according to Jack Osborne who. said, I think to Andy Stumpf, and he. said that he has got a friend that talks. to Trump frequently. >> So, tell him stuff. >> I know Jack Source actually, and uh so. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I don't think he's. lying. >> Well, this is also what multiple people. have said that there's something in the.

ocean, you know, and this is. >> Yeah. No, I I just had on the um Navy's. chief oceanographer who we just talked. about. He was head of Noah. >> Yeah, I saw that. >> Yeah. And um you know, he talks about. tons and tons of sightings. Tons of Navy. sightings. I mean, the the three. sightings that were popularized, the. videos that were popularized in the 2017. New York Times article, which is whether. you like that article or not, they got. some things wrong, very responsible for. a lot of the modern kind of disclosure.

movement. >> Very responsible for people all of a. sudden taking it seriously. >> 100%. Yeah, it slapped that credibility. onto the whole issue. Those were Navy. cases. Those were all Navy cases. The. Nimtts sighting, Go Fast, and Gimble. were all Navy. And so, yeah, there's a. long history. I mean the bluegill triple. prime thing I mentioned with Harold. Malgrren was Navy as well. You know you. have Tim Bchett saying there are five or. six hot spots you know on on ocean. floors and then you have Bob Lazar. saying you know actually that was taken. out of context. You know people are. saying the craft he worked on the sports.

model was found in an archaeological. dig. It was actually found on the. seafloor. Yeah. And I think the office of naval. intelligence knows a lot about this. whole time. In fact Jay Stratton. >> where where was the information that it. was found on the seafloor? That's what. he says. And I think he might have said. bury his like. >> Well, he said one of them came from an. archaeological dig. >> Yes. >> But it wasn't the sport model. >> I think I thought it was Oh, I don't. know if it was Maybe it wasn't one of. them. It wasn't the sport model. >> He said one of them I was told actually.

came from an archaeological dig and it's. really old. >> It might have not been the sport model, but that's the other weird thing. >> But he said it was the seafloor. The. labyrinth. >> that Herodus described. There's a. 40meter long tic tacshaped metallic. object that's inside of some sort of an. atrium that's underground. Just a 40 m. long piece of metal that's thousands and. thousands of years old. Like what are. you talking about? >> It's so crazy. >> How the do they have 40 m of metal. back then?

>> Like what is that? >> It's so crazy. >> 40 m is nuts. >> It's so nuts. >> 40 m is almost a half a football field. >> That's huge. That's massive. piece of metal. >> It's vertical. >> I do not know. >> Okay. >> I do not know, but it's uh it's shaped. like, you know, like a craft. >> The other crazy thing. >> Imagine there's a UFO under. Egypt. You just got to dig and go get. it. >> That'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing. um I know you've had you're referring to. a lot of Ben Van Kirkwick's amazing. work. He's been on your show a bunch. He.

I think went to Danderea and the. hieroglyphics there like translate to. Stargate. >> Yes. That's crazy. >> Like what? >> And then I think Stargate, you know, takes place at the py the pyramid is. literally a portal. And then if you. combine that with the Christopher Dunn. stuff or the Beyond stuff where either. it's a, you know, a generator of. electricity or there's this other guy, amazing guy Jeffrey Drum who talks about. it as a chemical manufacturing plant. you know, like something was being done. there and maybe it had to do with some.

transcendent, you know, and then it. obviously, you know, somewhat maps to. Orion's belt as well. So, I don't know. Maybe. And then Orion's belt is the. pathway that souls took in ancient. times. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> It's I never get tired of the subject. >> It's so fun. >> As long as there's new information that. comes out, they got me hooked forever. It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll. watch till I die. >> Yeah. No, I feel the same. It's it's so. like and it's always like the the cast. of there's so much drama too and.

disclosure and stuff and it's just I. don't know it's I I I I I do hope I do. think in our lifetime we're going to. make a lot of progress on it. >> This is Herodotus's I hope so. Herodotus's description had 12 roofs. roofed course uh courts god I can't talk. arranged in two rows six facing north. and six south all enclosed by one outer. law out outer wall. It contained 3,000. chambers, 1,500 above ground and 1500. underground. Herata say he toured the.

upper chambers himself, but Egyptian. custodians refused to show the lower. ones. They reportedly held the tombs of. the original royal builders and of. sacred crocodiles. >> What? >> What? >> That's so nuts, >> bro. That brings back to my stupid. dream. >> I I was literally thinking that. Yeah. He emphasizes its bewildering internal. circulation. Visitors passed from courts. to chambers, chambers to colonades, and.

then to further rooms and courts. Its. roof was stone. Its walls bore carved. figures. And each court was ringed by. precisely fitted white stone columns. >> And Ply the Elder also had an account of. this thing. like this was. >> well it's I mean also like with ground. penetrating radar they know it exists. these chambers actually do exist and. that's the weird thing about whatever. that metallic object is they they can. and they don't know what metal it is. either it's not it doesn't resonate like.

aluminum or iron they don't know what. the it is. >> that's so wild. >> labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids. >> wow. >> he says I saw this myself I found it. greater than words can say. >> that is so wild. that is so Imagine saying something's. greater than the pyramids and it's under. the ground. >> And you are the preeminent Greek. historian. Like you're writing about all. the craziest. >> and you're writing about it from a. firsthand perspective. It's not like he. heard a story. >> Yeah. You're you're you've seen it.

>> Yeah. This isn't like Homer. >> of writing. I was watching old older Lex. Freriedman podcast and this linguist. guy. I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we talked. about. Go back. Have you ever seen this. thing? >> What is that? Um the way he describes it is it's like. proving that they had language then. because this is not CUNI form. >> and the way he I mean they get it takes. 30 minutes probably before they get to. this and because he's breaking down what. language is and how we got to it and he.

gives a very crazy explanation of. language I had not heard which it's it's. like um. writing down sound. >> in the same way that like a like a. record is recording sound. You're. writing down sounds. >> and it's like it took a while for. everybody to agree upon what all those. sounds were so that you're all reading. the same thing. And so Irving Finkele, scholar of ancient languages and. longtime curator at the British Museum, renowned for his expertise in. Mesopotamian history and uniform.

writing, believes this artifact from. Gobeclet is evidence of the earliest. form of writing dating back to around. 11,600. years ago. So he's saying like the way. that the other stuff is reliefs that. this was like a a stamped piece of clay. that would have been, you know, some. record of some sort saying something was. done and this is like a verification of. that. And this could have been some. guy's last name. There's further. breakdowns I've seen like maybe this. snake is like the S sound and this could.

be some guy's name. Who knows what it. really could mean, but this is going to, you know, 12,000 years ago when they. thought we only were doing this for. 3,000 or whatever. >> Trippy. >> Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very. weird. The they're just a history that. we know of with the human race. I mean, just when you get to these old. structures that we know people made, like when did they make them and why? Like why what what is Goelette? What the. is that? Like. >> do you think we see a shift in our.

understanding of humanity and our place. in the cosmos in our lifetime? >> Yeah. One funeral at a time. >> Yes. That's how science progresses. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I think that's pretty accurate. >> One gatekeeper at a time. >> Yeah. These old they need. to get out of the way. I mean, I just. think there's way too many of these. people that have a vested interest in. protecting a narrative that they've been. they've been teaching, they've been. writing books about. They've been. they've been saying that they are the.

experts when you literally can't be. There's just not enough data. What every. period in history like things get wholly. overturned. So, if you can't point to. one thing that's kind of heretical today. that you agree with, then you're. definitely on the wrong side of history. >> Yeah. We always say we're at the end of. history scientifically, historically, and then it it always, you know, progresses and usually there's a that's. when people are most saying we're at the. end of history, you see a paradigm shift. and everything just completely collapses. and change. This is like the structure.

of scientific revolutions is written by. a guy named Thomas who was actually. he was friends with John Mack and he. encouraged him to you know investigate. the alien abduction stuff at at Harvard. and he was he would say that there's a. law of declining marginal returns in any. scientific paradigm where you're just. rounding out the the final margins on a. theory and you're so sure of it you know. like electromagnetism in the late 19th. century and then boom you get total. collapse because you know Max Plon. figures out quanta you get the quantum. revolution. And who's to say, who are.

you to say so smuggly that that's not. going to happen now? Like, of course it. will. >> Of course it will. >> It's just what always has happened. >> Yes. And much like the UFO thing with. when it comes to t discussions about. ancient history and the true history of. the human race and what we really don't. know the people that are the most smug. and are the most sure of themselves are. most certainly the most wrong.

>> Yeah. Ex 100%. >> Yeah. Because I think the whole thing is. weird. The UFO thing is weird and the. ancient history thing is weird. Yeah, >> there's there's too many unanswered. questions. >> Yeah. >> And the the answers that they have. >> are really shitty. There's too many. really shitty answers. >> This is kind of a weird analogy, but in. like stockpicking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock. picking, like whether you're right or. you're wrong, confidence can rise.

exponentially and accuracy rises very. linearly and often plateaus. And so. that's of I think it's the case in like. you know in learning anything where like. you get more and more and more. confident. You're so sure of yourself. and but your accuracy is only going like. mildly up. >> and it goes back to what we were talking. about with like remote viewing and. staying in flow state. >> Yes. >> It's like the you got to get out of your. own way with everything. >> Totally. and and and sometime you know a. great example is Maronei who is.

responsible for inventing the radio by. most account him and Tesla right he. tried to send a signal across the. Atlantic and he thought that. electromagnetic waves curved and so he. was like you know I'm going to send the. signal it's going to work he was. entirely wrong about electromagnetic. waves curving it just bounced off the. ionosphere and then it landed across the. Atlantic and the signal was received and. so he was right because he was wrong. >> And how many, you know, cases are like. that where, you know, did Graham Hancock.

find the ark of the covenant? No, he. headed he headed in this general. westerly direction of knowing that we. have kind of amnesia as a civilization. and he found something extremely. special. You know, helped popularize the. GBC tappy narrative and this whole. younger dus period, you know, impact. theory hypothesis. So, you have, you. know, the same thing with James Bruce. with the arc of the covenant. You can. you can shoot for the stars and land on. the moon, you know, and that's okay. But. if you're just like this nitpicker like.

annoying, smug, you know, academic who's. like arguing for the priestly citadel to. be upheld, like what what is your. contribution to humanity, >> right? >> What are you doing? >> Yeah. And there's a lot of those. >> There's so many. Yeah. But I think even. some of those people, and I'm not I'm. not saying that all of the attributes I. just mentioned apply to Neil Degrasse. Tyson, but but that some of some of. those people are now updating on UFOs. And it's wild because like you have a. documentary, you know, the age of.

disclosure where all these high ranking. intel people are saying UFOs are real. repeatedly in front of a chalkboard. saying they are real. Take my word for. it. And it's bludgeoning you basically. to a point where you're like, "Okay, they're probably not like lying to me, you know, and so and then you end up. with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like, look, okay, it's there's an overwhelming. amount of accounts now. Now I'm, you. know, I do think there's probably. something here and we should look into. it." And it's like, dude, you weren't. doing science before. But is all it took. a documentary? That doesn't make any.

sense. >> No, it's criticism. >> Yeah. >> He's responding to overwhelming. criticism of his intellectual capacity. for reason. >> That's right. Yeah. Because I think like. when he was on the podcast with me, I. got very upset with him when he was. like, "Why would they be interested in. us?" And I I told him, I go, "That one. drives me crazy." And I tried to explain. why it drives me crazy. He kept. interjecting and I'm like, "Okay.". Yeah, just just stop. Just stop with. that idea that we're not interesting. We're territorial apes with nuclear. weapons who send FaceTime videos.

to people on the other side of the. planet. >> That's real weird. >> We're We're apes with nukes. Yeah, we're. real weird. >> We're real weird. >> Yeah. And if I was something that was an. advanced civilization from somewhere. else, hopefully that uh a civilization. that has gotten past the concept of war. and stealing resources and all that and. and does have some sort of um a hive. mind, some sort of ability to. communicate telepathically. I would be. absolutely fascinated by this thing that.

seems to be in this transitionary sort. of an adolescent stage of evolution and. development. It's like not quite a. primal animal anymore, but also not. evolved past primal animal behavior. >> 100%. And I'll uh the giants the Chinese. science fiction novel, the three body. problem, you might not show yourself. overtly in the dark forest teaming with. life, it's actually dangerous to show. yourself. So, you subtly show up. You. show up at these, you know, nodes, hinge. points of, you know, uh, possible. cataclysm at nuclear. or you show up to.

a specific person who might be a node of. disclosure, but you'd let it sort of. seep in. You'd condition the population. You wouldn't show up all at once. And we. are like objectively being conditioned. to accept this. If the president. is saying they live in the ocean and Tim. Bashett is saying there's five hot spots. in the oceans as well. And then we see. it in the New York Times in 2017. Well, this is how disclosure takes place. >> Nice and slow. Nice and slow to the. point where it just becomes accepted.

>> Totally. Yeah. And it there's no like. clear onlogical shock moment. >> It's not. the Devil's Tower UFO lands. It's not that. >> No. >> No. It's nice and slow, right? >> It's what's happening now. It's. happening. And that's why because there. are people that get really frustrated. and I understand it because there's so. much sclerotic bureaucracy on the hill. and you know these whistleblowers need. way more protections. I think we need. targeted immunity for certain people who. can say a lot more who are good faith.

actors coming out. There probably a lot. of people did really bad that we. don't want immunity for, you know, right? >> But like. >> ultimately, you know, I have these. conversations and it's like it's so. frustrating. It's taking so long, but it. is moving. Like if you look at 10 years. ago visav today, 2016 before that 2017. article to today, it's wild. >> Totally different landscape. >> Totally different landscape. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you talked about it back. then, you were a buffoon and now you're. on the right side of history.

>> There you go. So, you Joe are the. premier scientist because you were into. all this stuff way back then. >> That guy was into it first. >> Art legend, >> the OG inspiration. >> Jesse, you're the man. I. appreciate you very much. It's always. great to talk to you. Your show is. amazing. American Alchemy. It's. available on YouTube and it's. incredible. It's the best. >> Love you, J. Thank you. >> I love you, too. Thank you for being. here. All right, bye everybody.