Joe Rogan Experience #2534 - Annie Jacobsen

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> AND come here scared to death. >> [gasps]. >> Biological war. Oh, boy. Every time I. talk to you, I'm terrified. >> [laughter]. >> That is my part-time job to. to actually scare Joe Rogan. If I can do. that, wow. >> Yeah, every time I would talk to you, I'm like, oh, no. Last time it was.

nuclear war. Oh, no. Now it's biological. war. Oh, no. >> Which is actually maybe even grimmer. than nuclear cuz at least in nuclear, you're just like gone in the flash. >> Um I did a show a while back on the. Sci-Fi network called Joe Rogan. Questions Everything, and one of the. episodes we did was about biological. war. And so, we spoke to this guy who used to. work for uh Russia uh during the Cold. War, and he was talking about how much.

anthrax they had, and how much work they. had done on biological weapons. And it. was terrifying. He said they had like. just giant vats of anthrax, like enough. to kill everyone in New York City. >> They were. Was it Ken Alibek? Do you know? >> [sighs]. >> He was Russian. >> Russian. Yeah, there was a couple of. those Russian defector scientists who. came here and told us everything they. were doing. There was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague. >> Plague. >> Plague That's actually the pathogen that.

I use in the scenario I write is plague. cuz it's. so crazy scary, so dangerous. It sits at. the top of the government's tier one. select agent. of dangerous pathogens. >> So, one of the things that we did during. this episode, we went to Galveston to I. guess this is a CDC lab that they had. there. So, they have these super thick. walls, and everyone's wearing. spacesuits, and they have these tubes. attached to them, and they were studying.

all these different really horrible. fatal diseases. And I'm like, "Well, what if this stuff. gets out? Like, it's right here. Like, what what happens if it gets out?" Like, "Well, we take every precaution, this. and that." But his concern, he said, was. not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really just from natural. virus. He says, "That is just as scary. as anything that's out there.". >> This is the Russian scientist you said? >> No, this is a different guy. This is an. American scientist. >> Yeah, I think they like to say that, you.

know, mother nature's is just as. powerful, but in truth, that's actually. not true, because think about what you. can do with genetic modification, make. it more virulent, more transmissible. >> Yes. >> And make it defeat existing vaccines and. antibiotics. >> Well, we are right now in the middle of. the Fauci hearings. So, >> Yes, we are. >> he is now. testifying in front of Congress and. pleading the fifth about everything, including the color of his tie. It's. very weird to watch. It's uh in in one.

way, it's like I told you to a lot of my. liberal friends that wanted to pretend. that he was a great guy, and that he. wasn't doing anything wrong. And now. that all these emails have gotten out, where it shows that he knew that the. fatality rate was much lower than they. were saying, he knew that it wasn't. [snorts] dangerous for children, that. they didn't need vaccines, he knew that. the social distancing thing was all. nonsense. And he's got a blanket pardon for 10. years. And the thing is, it's like.

these people get money for research, and. that's what they do. They do research. So, if you get money, and you get grants. for research, well, you're going to go. do research. And if your research is. gain-of-function research that makes. viruses more infectious to human beings, and you know, you have to do it, cuz. that's your job. That's what you do. That's what you study. That's what you. went to school for. Like, what a crazy thing we're doing? >> It is bananas and it's also, I mean, it. was really unfortunate I thought that.

yesterday he took the fifth cuz. I for one just want to hear. call me Pollyanna, the truth be told. You. >> Well, he's not going to tell you the. truth no matter what. He's going to. obfuscate and dance around it and. use words that don't totally apply to. what he's saying and just ramble on and. >> I mean, COVID absolutely could have been. this incredible lesson for all of us. I. mean, the nightmare that it was. And. instead, we're just left I mean, can you. believe that we still.

with all the power of national security. that we still allegedly do not know. where the virus came from. >> But don't we know? >> Definitively. I mean, definitively. People certainly have their ideas. >> But I think it's high probability that. it came from the Wuhan lab. I I I think. most experts are now saying that. And I. think the only reason why they weren't. saying that was because of Fauci. And it was really because that he had. funded this through the EcoHealth.

Alliance. >> Look, I say that in a very like 90,000. foot neutral way. In other words, every sub- I leave COVID. that part of it out of my book. It. becomes like a. like a metaphor that underpins the. narrative and people end up reading the. book and going, "Wow, I actually think. differently about COVID." Which was kind. of my intention. But every subject. matter expert I spoke to. encouraged me to put in the book that.

almost certainly it was a lab leak. Like, it's just but but So, when I say. we still don't know, that's in a bit of. air quotes, meaning how is it that. someone can't How does it all rest on. Fauci who had reasons to mislead us? We. know that from looking at what what's. been released. How can it be that. he's the only one with the alleged. answer to it all? >> Well, I mean, the other scientists that. were investigating it from the. beginning, you know, when they examined.

the virus, they were saying it had all. indications that it had been. manipulated. And they were pretty public. about that, and then they weren't. And. then they changed their tune. It's just. when you have power and you have. influence like he did, and the power to. make or break careers in the medical. world, where these people are terrified. You know, they're already dealing with. uh malpractice insurance, which which is. very high. They already have very high. student debt, student loan debt, and it's it's a bad.

situation for them, and they're not. going to stick their neck out to, you. know, risk their everything that they've. worked for for 20, 30, whatever years. for this thing. And that's what most. people did. Most people just stuck their. head in the sand, and, you know, >> they sort of went along with the party. line, which is also really crazy when. you drill down on how dangerous. biological weapons are. I mean, look, most of the people I talked to said, "Gain of function is a euphemism for.

biological weapons engineering.". >> Right. Right. >> Period. Full stop. >> And a lot of it is spun funded by the. military. >> Yes, and and And what's crazy is that. these are people that have worked for. Obama just as much as, you know, all. sides of the aisle working. The real. people who are not, as you say, they. don't have something to gain. financially. >> Well, we should say that Obama actually. stopped gain of function research when. he was in office, which was a very wise.

thing for him. Very wise by by, you. know, his decision. >> So, what do you make of the fact that. like Obama stopped this dangerous. research, also called dual use research. of concern. He stops it. And then. suddenly it becomes a partisan issue. that Republic only one side of the aisle. decides that I mean that's what confuses. me because. if the real if you look at the facts, the very knowledgeable people. that are well informed by people who.

don't have financial gain. know that gain of function is. essentially weapons engineering. >> Yes. And the thing is they're. doing gain of function to make these. viruses more transmissible supposedly so. that they can come up with cures. But. they didn't have any cures. >> And but I think it's like okay, that. also sounds great for them to say we're. trying to work on cures, but they're. leaving out a really important point is.

that. in order for us to find a cure, we have. to make the pathogen more virulent more. transmissible we have to make something. for example airborne that wasn't. airborne. >> Right. >> We have to demonstrate that it could. cause a pandemic. You see that a lot in. the literature. in order to figure out how to cure it. Well, that's. a catch-22 that's incredibly dangerous. Like we have to actually make a weapon.

to be able to. defeat a weapon. That's actually what is being said. >> Right, but it it seems like there's a. lot of going on and that really. what they're trying to do is make better. diseases that work better and they can. use them. Like this is part of the. argument about whether or not Lyme. disease was engineered. And there's a. lot of evidence that points to the fact. that it was. And one of the reasons for. it is this Plum Island laboratory that's. right off the coast of Lyme Connecticut.

where the disease was really first named. in the 1970s or whatever it was. >> Yeah. >> And so they were doing gain of function. research, they were doing biological. research on ticks in order to infect. ticks with diseases and then they would. drop them out of airplanes and overwhelm. the medical establishment in these. areas. And the idea was that if you're fighting. the enemy, you can fly over, dump a. bunch of ticks on them, they all get. these horrible diseases, everyone's. sick, you don't have an effective. fighting force. >> I mean, it's like we need to create a.

countermeasure, but first we need to. create the weapon. >> I don't even know if they think that far. ahead. I think a lot of it, I'm just. guessing, but I think a lot of it is. just what what I was saying earlier. There's people and their job is to to do. this kind of research and they want. grants and they want funding and they. want to and then there's other people. that can profit off of this of this. these grants and this funding and. creating labs and doing all this stuff. and they just start doing it and they. come up with reasons why it should be.

done and then of course you have. military people that want the military. applications of these diseases. And so they they help facilitate it and. they don't even think. what what does this how does this play. out? They think about their own. interests, their their own short-term. benefits of having these things and they. just keep continue the research, they. continue to work. And. the fact that they even push back on the. idea that it was a lab leak so hard when. you have a lab right where it was. leaked. I mean, right where it started. happening, you've got a lab there and.

then the famous John Stewart bit that he. did on the Colbert show, which is. hilarious. >> Yep. >> I mean, that's it's crazy. It's the. Wuhan Institute for. >> coronavirus research, yes. >> And that's where you get a coronavirus. leak. >> I mean, look, this is like where you. really have to think the country's going. to hell in a handbag that people stop. being able to like form an opinion based. on the facts in front of them even if it. isn't popular with their best friend.

>> Well, it's their party, right? It's. their ideology. They've they've. committed to one side or another. And either you, you know, you're with. the team or you're not with the team. And if you're with the team, you have to. accept all the things the team says. >> At your own peril. >> Mhm. >> I mean, you know, it's an existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality rate. for COVID was? Like. the case fatality rate, it means how. many people out of 100 people that get. COVID die.

>> How many? One. >> One. Case fatality rate of one. Pneumonic plague, which I write about in. biological war, Mother Nature's. pneumonic plague, 100 out of 100 die. 100%. case fatality rate. Unless you get antibiotics. within 24 hours, then it's about a 15%. case fatality rate. But guess what gain of function does?

You can learn how to outfox. antibiotics. So that you can turn Mother Nature's. pneumonic plague, which used to be. curable with antibiotics, to have no. cure. That's the threat level we're. dealing with. And meanwhile, people are. taking sides about. what we're talking about a lab leak that. pretty obviously was a lab. >> Well, first of all, I didn't realize. that COVID's fatality rate was that.

high. I thought it was much lower than. that. >> It's about 1%. Well, here's why Okay, so. one in 100 people who manifested COVID. got it. But. COVID is also. >> One in 100 people who manifested COVID. >> died. >> Yes. So like, I don't know anyone. >> Wasn't it really that much? >> That is the CDC, even Defense Department. statistic. But also, keep this into. consideration. Many, many people who had. COVID were never symptomatic. >> Right. >> Like including my father my 83-year-old.

father and my son, one of my two sons. They could both test positive for COVID. and have no symptoms. >> Right, but isn't that a function of the. PCR test being really. not designed for testing for active. diseases? And there's false positives of. the PCR test was somewhere in the 80%. >> Huge. Huge. I mean, you're I think. bringing up the most important point. about biology. Which is that there's so much. uncertainty. There's so much.

uncertainty. I mean, you and I could get. the same pathogen in our lungs. Our. immunity systems are totally different. Our physiology is different. So, there's no. uncertainty would be something that you. would think would be. sort of factored into public health. officials talking about things. Like, "We're not sure if dot dot dot." But. instead, they act with this crazy. certainty. Which is bogus. >> Well, the big the big problem with that. is profit, right? There's there was a.

lot of profit in. being able to point towards one very. particular method, one very particular. treatment. And this was the only. treatment. And you have to take this. treatment, and this treatment is going. to make people an insane amount of. money. But that's not why they're. pushing it. They're pushing it for. public health. They really care about. you. Even though they're going to make. hundreds of billions of dollars. >> So, the case fatality rate, is that what. you're saying? >> Yeah. >> It says it's point or 1%. >> 0.1% which is a fraction of the 1%. estimated earlier in the pandemic.

>> Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I. thought it was 1/10 of 1%. So, that makes more sense to me. Because. otherwise, you would have so many people. dead. You know, if you think about 300 million. people, that means we'd have 3 million. people dead cuz most people caught. COVID. >> It's interesting cuz the CDC still says. it's 1%. >> I think they're full of. >> Right. But they all. >> of I think they're just. I think the mismanagement and the just. the overall strategy for dealing with. it, dealing with people, the lockdowns,

keeping kids out of school, masking, all. of it was so bad. It's It's so. indefensible. The one of the wildest. things now is during this Fauci Fauci. trial, you're not seeing any coverage of. it on mainstream media except I saw one. of those stupid panel shows on CNN where. they were saying no one cares about. this. We should care about what's. happening right now. America doesn't. care about what happened 5 years ago. Hey, there's a congressional hearing. going on where a guy's testifying in. front of Congress who got a 10-year.

complete 10-year immunity for all the. crimes that he possibly could have. committed when he wasn't convicted of. any crimes, which is an incredible. precedent that's never happened before. You've never had a guy get pardoned for. something that he was never convicted of. for 10 years. Anything he did in 10. years. And then you have that same guy. testifying in front of Congress, pleading the fifth that would color his. tie is? If you don't think that's news, you're out of your mind and you. shouldn't be calling yourself the news. cuz you're just a propaganda arm for.

whatever pharmaceutical company is. paying for your advertisements. This. You're What you're doing is nonsense. This is definitely not news. That's a. big issue for most Americans who went. through that. People who lost their. jobs, people who had to take a vaccine. in order to go to work and got sick from. it, people who they couldn't fly, they. couldn't travel. They were vilified. They were called plague rats cuz they. were questioning these things. And here we are. Here we are with CNN. saying this is not a big deal. Why are. we concentrating on this? We have so. many issues right now plaguing this.

country. You know, guess what? We can. concentrate on those, too. We can look. at everything. That's what you're. supposed to do. That's what the news is. supposed to be. You're supposed to be. telling You're not supposed to be the. arbiters of what we can and can't. concentrate on. That's ridiculous. >> You know, but what's interesting is I. think the lack of news ends up making. people more curious. So, in other words, people go to other. sources of information. If they're not. going to get it from CNN, they're going. to look for it themselves because we're.

naturally curious, especially something. like COVID. So, I think I kind of get. the sense that people tow certain groups. of people, certainly not me because you. don't know what my politics are, but. they will tow the party line, but then. they have their own opinion privately. >> Yes. >> Um which is unfortunately what we also. saw from Dr. Fauci, but that's a. completely different point because he's. a public health official and he. shouldn't be, you know, speaking out of one side of.

his mouth and writing in his journal. another thing that he really thinks. But I think that this human instinct to. want to know the truth about what. happened. must prevail, right? And And that So, but my original point was like, why is Dr. Fauci allegedly the only one. who can really tell us. about the Wuhan lab? Like, where's the. CIA? Where's the ODNI? Where's DOD? Where are other organizations that you.

know have that information? >> Yeah. >> You know they do. If Fauci had it, they had it. Why aren't. they bringing that to the public domain. right now? >> That's a very good question. So, I want. to ask you about this book. Like, what. was your motivation for writing it? How. did you get involved in this? Like, I. know you you pick a subject and you go. deep and you dive deep and then you. write your book. So, why Biological. Warfare? >> Yep. My first six books were written in the.

past tense. Like, you know, the Nazi scientists who came to America, Area 51, um The Pentagon's Brain. The Nuclear War and Biological War are. written in the future. They're scenarios. based on Pentagon war games. And that was me realizing like there are. major existential threats right now. speeding up at the rate of science, which is going faster every day, literally.

And so I modeled the two books after. Pentagon war games and. got access to people who actually run. these games at the Pentagon. And learned. the sort of holy people are. preparing for the worst case scenario. and no one knows about it. >> Is that their job though? I mean, that. is their job. They have to be preparing. for the worst case scenario. The real. question is are you preparing by. creating it?

>> The Defense Department or us? >> Well, whoever Yeah. >> um well, what I wanted to do first of. all was like I'm just naturally curious. So I wanted to know like what are they. what how does that preparation play out? Um the most shocking thing about nuclear. was to find out like oh, there is no. plan because we're all dead. That's. literally the quote from the FEMA. director. There is no population. protection planning. after a nuclear strike because. everyone's dead. Don't forget your.

morals and hope you stocked Pedialyte. That's what he told me. Okay? Bio is totally different. >> Why Pedialyte? >> Pedialyte, you know, that stuff you give. your kids to drink. Yeah, electrolytes. >> Yeah, not just kids. >> No, or or your. >> [laughter]. >> or you, all right? That's what he said. >> take it when they cut weight. >> been a while since I've been an athlete, but you know. >> Um. So yeah, that's what he said. It was. like wow, that's what they're thinking. about nuclear. It's just lights out.

>> though? >> I guess for the electrolytes. >> Does that protect I know what is it, iodine that people tell you to take? >> I always got the sense that the I should. have done a follow-up question, Joe. Like why why Pedialyte? I always got the. sense in the same way that when your. kids are babies and they get diarrhea. that you give them Pedialyte to like, you know, re-. get their system filled with necessary. electrolytes. >> Mhm. >> So, that's I and I also got the sense. that it was like. hydration and, you know, better than. water.

>> God. Ugh. >> But bio, I learned, is completely different animal because. what they're really worried about is the. secondary effect of panic and anarchy. And that was really interesting to me. cuz having written all these books. about, you know, the Defense Department and the. CIA, the programs are very, you know, they're very structured and. ordered and they don't take place in the. homeland because we're always fighting.

wars overseas. >> Mhm. >> So, to learn about a program. that would go down in the continental. United States where, you know, the. Insurrection Act gets declared, posse. comitatus gets lifted, the military. takes over, um. dot dot dot and then it goes from there, third act of the book, spoiler alert. That was shocking to me. And it was. equally shocking that I could actually. get this information. A lot of it's. classified,

but the names of some of the programs. are unclassified, so the officials that. I interviewed took me up to the edge of. what can be legally known. And I also. got the sense of like, "Oh, that the sense that these former. officials are conveying is the public. should know about this.". My personal interpretation is like, let's stop arguing about stuff that like. doesn't matter and get to the facts and. start realizing where the real threats. are.

>> So, their real fear is worrying about. the the aftermath. Worrying about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting. That's the real fear? >> That's the real fear. You can. search up any of So there's unclassified. pandemic plans, which are done by like. FEMA, DHS. They're always done by former. officials, former SecDef, former CDC. director, sitting around a table, running a war up a pandemic planning.

game. They do them at the Defense. Department and they call it a biological. catastrophe war game. Those are. declassified. All of them that I was looking at. go through the series of events, you. know, outbreak, infection, sort of. everyone trying to mitigate the the the. the release, the spread, and then it. gets to a certain point. In my scenario, it's day six cuz pneumonic plague is. fast. There's a point in all these plans.

where anarchy and chaos takes over. and the war game ends. Ends. Like, "Oh, and now we're done here." And. I would say as the journal like to. myself, "What happens next? What happens. next and why aren't we learning about. it?". >> And they don't have any plans for what. happens after anarchy and chaos? >> They do. They just don't They just don't. have it in the declassified games and. that's what There's a plan called the. devolution plan.

>> Ooh. >> Eyebrows up for a reason. >> I don't like that word. >> Think about evolution. Now put a D in. front of it. >> Yeah. >> Instead of going forward, you're going. backward. So you've heard of DEFCON, right? Okay, so DEFCON defense readiness condition, there's five. Five is the lowest, that's like normal. every day. At 9/11, we were at three. DEFCON 1 means nuclear war. There's a separate structure of. readiness condition called Cog Con.

Probably haven't heard of it cuz it's. classified. Stands for continuity of government. readiness condition. It's got four levels. Four is every day. One. is insurrection. The Insurrection Act gets declared. Cog Con one is in effect and the. devolution plan happens, which I learned.

means. a subset of pre-designated. officials. They know who they are, they've signed contracts, they've. rehearsed it. They go out. Uh in the words of the. former FEMA director, Cog Con one, you. send your devolution crews out. They go out to a hot site, warm site, or. cold site. Underground bunkers located around the. United States. This is from an actual.

FEMA chief telling me this. And they set up. how to run the government because the. idea is all the regular government. people will probably be dead of anarchy, insurrection, pneumonic plague. >> So, they have bunkers. >> And those are classified. >> The bunkers are. >> Where they are? >> Do you remember there was the the bunker. during after 9/11 where Dick Cheney was. in the bunker, but George Bush was just. like hanging out? >> They left him I think they left him in.

Texas or you know, he was on his ranch. >> [laughter]. >> He was just out there in the world. >> know what? I I had someone tell me where. he was and I went through like. a problem with like legal whether I. could say this so I had to say. I was told, but you know, it's not. verified, something like that. But. um. one of the CIA spy pilots, Ken Collins, he famously flew the Ox Cart out at Area. 51. He told me that on 9/11, George Bush. was driving around in Texas. Maybe it.

was in Florida, in the back of a laundry. truck. That's how they kept him hidden. >> What? A laundry So, did they just have it look like a. laundry truck and it outfitted with like. regular seats in the back and that's how. they drive him around? >> I mean. >> A bulletproof [laughter] laundry truck? >> No, I think he got like I think it was. like what do we do with him and that. that was what was available. It was a. laundry truck. That's what I was told by. like a very reliable source. >> That was available meaning there was. nothing else available that was.

incognito? >> They were trying to transport him to the. doomsday plane, which is where he ended. up going into the doomsday plan and. flying around in circles. >> that like a. caravan of SUVs would be too obvious? >> Yes. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you learn really pretty quickly that. there's all these plans in place, but. then it becomes like ad hoc or like on. the fly in an actual crisis or.

emergency. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. But okay, you're referring to. Mount Weather. That's where Dick Cheney. went. >> Okay. Where is that? >> Mount Weather is in the mountains. outside of DC. It's like. >> There's mountains outside of DC? >> Right. In the Blue Ridge Mountains. >> Oh, how far are those? >> A hundred 75 miles. >> Okay. >> Um so, the Pentagon has an alternate. command center called Raven Rock, underground bunker.

Okay. >> That sounds like it's right out of a. video game. >> It sounds. like it was. >> [laughter]. >> They probably have put it in a That's a. real like it used to be classified and. no one used to know about it and now. it's kind of like out there. The official. >> it, Jamie? This is the bunker? Oh, we. have a map of it? We have blueprints? >> of information about it. What do you. want to know? >> [laughter]. >> 51 miles from DC. >> How deep does it 51 miles from DC? >> least seven levels. >> Wow. >> The Oval Office would be at the bottom. >> That's crazy. >> That's where Cheney was on 9/11.

>> So is that where like a nuclear bomb. can't get to it? >> A nuclear bomb take it all out. In. nuclear war, it destroy all of those. I. mean, I don't destroy them. I show you. how they would be destroyed. Russia. would put like five nuclear bombs on. Raven Rock. And it would just. >> boom boom boom boom boom. >> it. And also the fires alone would just. incinerate everyone inside. >> Also, like how are you getting your air? >> Yeah. >> Where's your air coming from? Your air. is going to be contaminated with nuclear. fallout, right?

>> Yes. >> Is this what it looks like? >> I don't know. There's a bunch of Some of. those pictures were coming from Tumblr, so I don't know. >> [laughter]. >> I I I think I think they take the real. the real pictures and then they turn. them into, you know, comic books. But um. >> Right. >> But you can see some of. >> So look how it's got this like entrance. carved into the side of the mountain. with a big cement wall. And he goes. through that. >> Yep. >> You know, we were talking about this um. the other day. Um we're we're talking. about Derinkuyu. Do you know what that.

is? >> Mhm. >> It's uh an underground facility that's. in Turkey. >> And Yes, I do know about that. >> they found by accident. >> Yes. >> What was it? The 1970s? >> her. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> [laughter and gasps]. >> It used to It was being used to hide. people up until the 1920s. >> Wow. >> Yeah, people like the Greeks were hiding. from people invading Greece. >> So it can. >> Or Turkey, I guess. >> house 20,000 people under there, and. they really don't know why they made it. or who made it. It's. >> Turkey is crazy. It's such an old.

civilization with like layers upon. layers upon layers of. Just when you think it's really old, it. gets even older. >> Well, that's Göbekli Tepe, right? Where. they they had to re-date Well, they. still resist it. My What what. constitutes modern civilization or. civilization in general? They were. They're still trying to say some. archaeologists are hanging on tooth and. claw trying to say that hunter-gatherers. made these enormous stone columns with. 3D drawings that. seem to be a calendar of some sort of a.

cataclysmic event. >> So, some of the pictures we were just. looking at from that weather maybe not. accurate because it's also used in the. TV show The 100. >> Oh. >> Yeah. So, >> But, it is a real place. >> That's probably where they get it from. So, what we were looking at I think was. the stuff from the TV show. >> What is that? What's The 100? >> Uh. like a show like Silo or something where. people are, you know, 100 people left or. something like that, I think. >> Oh, that's what we were We had Tim. Robbins on and we were talking about. Silo. Have [sighs] you seen that show. Silo? >> Not yet. Not yet. >> Really good show. It's on Apple. And.

it's essentially about an underground. civilization that survived some sort of. cataclysm. They don't exactly say in the. beginning I'm early on the show. They. don't say what the cataclysm is, but. these people have to live like deep deep. deep underground in these. self-containing facilities and you can't. go outside or you'll die. Um. >> Yes, there's like a whole Reddit about. it. >> So, Derinkuyu could house 20,000 people. and they had. They had pastures or or they had storage. like for cattle and grain and water and.

wine and oil presses. It's like crazy. >> And how many thousands of years BC is. it? They don't even know. >> know. They don't know who made it. They. didn't know it existed. They found it. Imagine a a guy. The initial story was that his chickens. had gone through a hole. And he's like, "Where are these chickens going? They. never come back." And [laughter] they. >> The disappearing Turkish chickens. >> So, they knocked down these walls and. then they find this thing and they.

haven't even explored all of it. They. They don't even have all of it explored. yet. It's insane. It's so big and it's. just there and they don't know why and. they don't know who made it and they. don't know what they're hiding from. This is what it looks like. >> Yeah, it's incredible. >> It's really crazy cuz it's absolutely. enormous. >> I love. >> Derinkuyu right here? This is like some. of the tunnels. >> Yeah, it's I get confused since they've. only done 10% of it like that's. obviously fake but I don't know how much. of that is what it is cuz it's supposed. to be underground, right?

>> Yeah, that doesn't look real. That that seems like somebody made that. up. But the actual images like that's an. image which says the best Derinkuyu. underground what like there we'll point. to Yeah, right there. That's what it really looked like. So. imagine they find this underground and. they don't even know how old it is cuz. if you find some stuff you can't carbon. date the walls. You can't carbon date the carvings. So. they have to find things that are left. there but if people are hanging out. there until the 1920s like so they. really don't even know if you find.

something how old it is. You can guess. but you don't know like how old was the. building when this person was there? Was. it thousands of years old already? They. don't know. >> It's interesting how the archaeologists. that have a. like have skin in the game with an other. theory resist that and it takes a while. It's like with Göbekli Tepe, you know. Now there's. investigations going on archaeological. digs nearby. And lo and behold they're finding other. things which makes me feel like they. would be. >> the area. >> Yeah, all over the place of course. It.

didn't exist on its own. >> Yeah, of course. [clears throat]. >> Some kind of advanced civilization has. neighbors. >> 11,000 plus years ago. >> So crazy. >> It's so weird because we keep pushing. the dates further and further back. Like. Graham Hancock always says, stuff just. keeps getting older. And so it makes you. wonder like have we gone through. something like this before whether it's. a natural catastrophe or. whatever it was, you know. >> Remember when we were kids it was like. the Lascaux caves were the oldest thing.

ever. I I can't I don't even remember in. France. Remember the drawing of the. bull? Oh, right, right, right. I. remember that from the history books. That's from that um. Werner Herzog documentary. Yes. Yeah, that's a great one. Amazing. been on the. show? No, I want to get him on. I love. that guy. He's the neighbor of my kids. Whoa. Yeah. Well, I don't want to say where he. lives. People will go find him, [laughter] but that's pretty pretty. cool. in LA, so Wow. We'll track him. down. He's my favorite documentarian. Oh, absolutely. Grizzly Man's one of my. favorites of all time. Grizzly Man is.

epic. Yeah. It's Have you seen Happy. People? No. That's a great one, too. Is. that new? No, no, it's a few years old. It's Life in the Taiga, Happy People. Life in the Taiga. It's about these. people that live in Siberia off the. Taiga River, and they're like the. happiest people. And all they do is like. hunt and fish and trap, and they get. together, they have really strong. community, they drink, and they're. laughing, and they have like no mental. illness. It's it's really weird as he. documents it. He has such Have you seen Little Dieter.

Needs to Fly? No. Oh my god. The only. man rescued from Laos during the Vietnam. War. And Herzog go He's died since, Dieter, but Herzog goes with him back. into the jungle. Wow. Oh my god, you're. going to love it. It's a treat that you. haven't seen it yet. Little Dieter Needs. to Fly. That guy is such a world. treasure. Oh my god, just his voice and. like his perspective on everything. Just. when you think Just when I think I know.

what he's going for, he takes you like. on a complete left turn. And you're left like. at least for me, thinking about the. world in a completely new original way. Yeah. So, these caves in France, they. thought that that was the old But that. was really old, right? Wasn't Wasn't. that like 30 plus thousand year old. drawings? I think maybe Jamie can jack. frost I think they were like 7,000 BC. You know, so like they were older than. that. >> Discovered 1940 by four teenagers,

closed in '63. Wall paintings created around 17,000. years ago. >> 17,000, okay. Yeah. >> That's it? God, I thought it was older. >> a quick explanation. >> This is the Werner Herzog documentary? I thought they were like. literal cavemen made it. >> Well, I mean. >> So, that's only 17,000 years ago? >> It's what that says. >> Interesting. God, I really thought it. was a lot older than that. >> But then they come up with like the hand.

on the cave in Indonesia. I think that's. 40,000 and. >> Believed to be 19,000 years ago. That's. interesting. So, at one point in time. they thought that was the oldest. >> When I was a kid, I remember that. Like. >> It's not quite what it says. Says the. painting for the site were duplicated. with the same materials which were used. to believe like which were used 19,000. years. That doesn't mean. >> Oh, right. >> still be older. >> Right. They knew that they used them. 19,000 years ago, but they could have.

used them a lot earlier than that. >> to use them? >> Right. Right. We don't have documents. Crazy stuff though. Just imagine like. living back then. >> It is wild when you think about the. underground bunkers now and you kind it. kind of has this spooky echo as an. archetype of. >> hiding. >> You know. >> Hiding from the dangers. Yeah. Having a. shelter. And hiding from the the the. whole that trope, that thought of a. bunker.

is you know, there's a lot of supposedly. wealthy people. Well, they are wealthy, but supposedly they have these. underground bunkers. That's what you. always hear. These rich people, these. billionaires are setting up bunkers in. New Zealand cuz they know something's. coming. Like, oh Jesus. Right? >> But good luck getting there in time. >> Yeah. Right? Right. If the goes down and you. happen to be in Hawaii, and you got to. get to New Zealand. >> Also, your bodyguards are a lot stronger. than you are. >> Well, wouldn't you bring them with you?

>> Yeah, but it's going to be every man for. themself. >> Well, wouldn't you have a If you're. going to have that kind of money to make. a Wouldn't you have a bunker that could. house a few hundred people so that you. could. you know, nobody. gets insurrection in your movement? >> I mean, I suppose if you bring. everybody's family, you have to have a. lot of preparing for this. That's what. really kept taking me back to those. docu- the documents in the Defense. Department about fear of infection. creates anarchy. >> Right. >> And insurrection because this idea of. like fear of infection, people begin to.

their mind actually begins to change in. the studies under scarcity. >> Right. >> And scarcity coupled with fear of. infection, it's so visceral. It's like. It's as much of an archetype as the. bunker. Being infected. Very, very. different than being shot at. Right? You get the sense if you're If. you can get into the bunker if you're. being attacked with a physical weapon. Okay, I'm safe now. Close the doors. Make a fire.

But with fear of infection, I mean, a. biological weapon or any pathogen from. is a living munition. It. self-replicates, and it's got an. incubation period. So then it Right? >> So then you can be infected and not know. it while it's incubating inside of your. body, and then you infect a bunch of. other people as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and we saw it during COVID how. aggressive people got, screaming at. people for not wearing masks, and and. you know, that was.

as far as pandemics go, fairly mild. >> Yep. Fairly mild. Like, I mean, if you go with the CDC's 1% or your 0.1%. >> It's not my number. >> Or or you know, the Right, perplexity's. one per- I mean, you're talking about a nothing burger. compared to. >> Compared to pneumonic plague. >> plague. And there are, you know, I mean, look, I also write in the book, and this has never been reported before, cuz I interviewed CIA officers who both.

debriefed the Soviet defectors, and also. people who chased. WMD in the hands of terrorists during. the war on terror. And I specifically. didn't want to write that scenario. because it's so loaded to go with like. terrorist use use of a biological agent. But I give you little history lessons. when I stop the drama, one of which involves an Al-Qaeda. terrorist that was captured. She's. actually now in Texas in a mental.

institution for the rest of her life. Her name's. Aafia Siddiqui. She's an MIT-trained biologist. Related by marriage to Khalid Sheikh. Mohammed. Okay? And she was leading the biological. weapons program. This is according to. the CIA officers. >> trained at MIT? >> She was trained at MIT, and then she. went back to Pakistan. She was the first. woman on the FBI's most wanted terrorist. list. >> How come they have her in a mental. institute? >> Cuz they caught her. And then this part is reported. They.

caught her, and somehow, again the air. quotes, somehow she got a hold of a. Marine's rifle, and fired and was firing. at the FBI agents interviewing her. This is all public. And she was shot. They take her to the United States, gave. her a trial, decided she was insane, put. her in a mental institution. But what had never been revealed before. my book. is that in her handbag, she had plans. to create a genetically modified.

pathogen that mixed rabies. with chicken pox. Think about that. Imagine airborne. rabies. Rabies, like pneumonic plague, is one of the only other pathogens that. has a 100% death rate without. countermeasures. >> And rabies, like when you see it in. animals, I've never actually encountered. a rabid animal in the in the wild as. as much as I know. Um but when you see them, they they want.

to infect something else. They get hyper. aggressive. They want to bite you. So if they bite you, they give it to. you, which is really crazy. Like this. this disease makes them throw their own. safety out the window and just go after. people and try to bite them. >> I mean, it's like a it's an like a. rabies is a like now it's own a rabid. animal. You know, you think of it of. it's so visceral. It's going to come at. you with its infected saliva. I almost.

went with the rabies scenario because I. I always in these scenarios tie them to. actual events that have happened so that. there's so that readers don't go like. this is Annie Jacobsen's dystopian. imagination as much as they say, oh, she's following what, you know, science. This is science fact, not science. fiction. And so when I learned about that plan. for. to for the genetic modification of. rabies and chicken airborne rabies. But. then I thought. >> did she get along with this?

>> That is classified, Annie. You know, but. I did get a second person, David Relman, who's the advisor to the president on. biodefense to confirm with me that that. was actually located in her handbag and. caused serious concern. >> Oh, and now imagine if they never found. her, they never caught her, and she. completed that. >> I mean, it's really terrifying. >> And wipes [snorts] out most of the. country. >> And also just in the most horrific way. I mean, you know, like having to like look at. your pet and be like, is my pet rabid?

It's just. >> And they could catch it, too. >> Another project. >> Oh, she had another project? >> projects, apparently. >> She had collected materials on viruses. for biological warfare and one of her. projects is finding its way to infect. America's poultry supplies with an. antibody that would allow chickens to. pass salmonella onto humans more easily. She later destroyed her work after. suspecting Abu Lubab was hoping to. double-cross her and turn her into the. United States authorities. >> This is a long Wikipedia with quite a.

bit of twists and turns. I'm surprised. it's not a movie. There's a lot going on. >> Oh my god, and that's one person that we. caught. Now, that's not like this is the. only time they thought of that. This is. the only person that they tried to. recruit to do this kind of stuff. There's probably someone out there right. now. >> Mhm. >> Hence, your book. >> I mean, [clears throat]. I interviewed this guy, very famous, legendary CIA officer named Rolf Mowatt. Larson, and he led.

the. the counter-WMD. team, right? So, he would go to places. basically like with a bunch of ground. branch guys, CIA paramilitary guys. behind him. He was kind of like the. intelligentsia at the front to try to. negotiate with Al-Qaeda weapons makers, biological weapons makers, and say like. "You can't do this. It's going to kill. all of us." And he he told me a couple. stories and I write them like history. lessons in the book. Once he went to.

Sudan and met with. uh the top biological weapons maker for. Al-Qaeda. And like. you know, it's just chilling. It's. basically you get the feeling like. that Rolf said, "I got them to agree to. stop temporarily.". >> Temporarily. >> Temporarily. >> [sighs]. >> Sorry, Joe. This is the nightmare stuff. >> So, what do they think that they're. going to do if they get into these. bunkers? But this is the thing. It's It's if.

society completely collapses anarchy. just sweeps the nation and you've got. cities on fire and people killing people. and looting, eventually they're going to. run out of food, eventually there's. going to be no infrastructure. You've. got no power, you've got no one who's. taking care of the water, no one's. taking care of the satellites, no no. one's taking care of anything. The cell. phone towers are down. What are these people in the bunker. going to do? Are they going to reinvent. society? >> Well, that's the plan down the road, but. before. >> that? Did they have. >> The part five of the devolution plan is.

called reconstitution. >> Oh, Jesus. >> So, they're going to reconstitute the. government. Like rise again like a. phoenix from the ashes. But before that, I also learned the government has issued. the rather the Pentagon has issued 1.7. million gas masks to its personnel. So, they fan out across the states. But they can not really handle the. numbers of people who are actually going. to die pretty quickly.

So, instead what their job is is to. protect the critical infrastructure. All. that stuff you exactly mentioned. >> So, they just. just assuming that most people are going. to die. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the quote. This is. the exact quote from Colonel Tom Ehrhard. who. ran. catastrophic nuclear and biological war. games at the Pentagon. For Do you Have. you ever heard of a very famous guy they. called him Yoda at the Pentagon? He died.

like a couple years ago at age 100. His. name is Andy Marshall. He ran the Office. of Net Assessment. Talk about a. euphemism like or like a cloaked That's. where they did all the war gaming. And Marshall Andy Marshall did this. in the '70s all the way through his. recent death. And Tom Ehrhard worked for. him. It's in the Office of the Secretary. of Defense. So, what Ehrhard told me is. in the event of a biological. catastrophe, and by the way, that. includes. not just an attack,

but an incident. And an incident means a. lab leak, okay? So, in the event of a. catastrophic biological incident, there is very little you can do to. protect the homeland. Only things you. can do. to mitigate extermination. >> Of the human race? >> That's his quote. >> Mitigate extermination. >> Mitigate extermination. >> want to keep as many people alive as. possible, but it's probably going to be. a very small amount. >> And it's probably just going to be the.

1.7 people with the gas mask. And a whole bunch of like Machiavellian. solipsists. >> Can you imagine if our society had to be. reinvented. with only people that work in the. government? >> [laughter]. >> Can you imagine? Some of the most. incompetent, crooked people in the. world, and that's the new society. >> Well, I have a feeling most of the. bureaucrats would die because I don't. think they could, you know, take care of. themselves, right? I think the people. that would live would be those.

well-trained soldiers. >> Well, that's not bad. That's probably a better scenario. >> But the other problem you're looking at. is reproduction cuz there's 17% females. in the military. >> That's not good. >> That's not good. And then the other problem is that the. other people who are left that are not. in the military. are Imagine the skills you have to have. to be able to like deal with fear of. infection. in a manner that you basically have to. be able to, as it was said to me, kill.

people on site. Like not even worrying. about whether This is where it really. feels like The Walking Dead or, you. know, an apocalyptic movie. >> 28 Days Later was based on that. But 28. Days Later was a lab leak. >> Yes. Yes, that's a. >> Remember it was called rage? It was. something they were doing with. chimpanzees, and a chimpanzee bit. somebody. >> That's how it opens. >> And it spreads. >> Those are great films. Those are great. Did you see the new. one? >> No, I haven't seen the new one. >> Oh, the new one, parts one and two.

I mean. >> There's parts one and two of the new. ones? >> Oh, it's a two-parter? >> Two-parter. They They released them like. 6 months apart. >> Oh my god. >> incredible. I mean, don't. >> worn out from those kind of movies. >> I mean, it's a certain You have to have. a certain. >> Yeah. >> There's no happy ending. >> I don't I mean, Joe, I'm an eternal. optimist, believe it or not. I really. am. >> crazy considering your work. >> But, I just figure all of this is a. cautionary tale. And I also figure it's.

better to know than to be caught off. guard. >> and I think you do an amazing job of. that. And I think you're a very. important person in that regard. You. inform people of these things that you. really should be considering. They I. mean, your nuclear war book freaked a. lot of people out. That were kind of, you know, nuclear war was in the back of. their mind. You know, yeah, it's a. possibility, but hey, we haven't done. it. We dropped a couple of bombs during. the World War II, and that's it. We're. done with that. >> You know, you said something to me last. time we spoke about the nuclear war book.

that really stayed with me. And it has. an interesting coda. So, you were like, "Annie, I couldn't read nuclear war. It. freaked out a lot of my friends. I can't. read it." And then you explained why, and you said, I'm paraphrasing you, but. you said, "I think about those people at Hiroshima. and Nagasaki, and they were just going. about their daily life, and all of a sudden, they're incinerated.". And that really stayed with me. And I.

thought about it. Here's the coda. The survivors are called hibakusha. That's what they call themselves. It's. like survivors of the nuclear bomb. So, now, since it was 80 years ago, they're. all like 81 to 90 plus. And they were stigmatized. throughout their youth because the idea. was you're radioactive. You can't. reproduce. You're sort of, you know, there's like a a malignant a malignant.

thing attached to you. This is what they. told me and I met them and they. um I was invited to Hiroshima to be the. keynote speaker with the Hibakusha for. the 80th anniversary of the bombing. >> What did they say the experience was. like in terms of being maligned? Like. what what was happening to them? >> Well, the sense I got was very much that they. believed that was accurate. They had no. other information. They had no other information other than.

people telling them, you. >> they were radioactive. >> Yeah. Now, what was also interesting is. a couple of the younger people who were. who don't remember, who were like infants, their mothers, like let's say one parent died and. another so their one the living parent. would shield them from that by never. telling them. that they were Hibakusha. So then they had this whole other kind.

of realization later in life when they. learned. and some of I mean those stories were. like incredible because you're learning. about how. like a parent's love for a child means. not telling them. what you think would make them feel. stigmatized, but yet you. them explaining to me that they felt. that stigma throughout their life. anyways, not knowing why. >> I never even would have considered that. stigma. I would have considered survival. skill survivor's guilt, which people do.

have if you're a part of a disaster and. you're one of the ones that lived. >> Yeah. >> People get survivor's guilt, but I never. would have thought of the the stigma of. being maligned as an infected. radioactive person. >> And Japan has such a different culture. I couldn't have imagined that either. until I heard it firsthand from the. experience of the survivors. They sent some of them to an island. >> Mhm. >> Like banished as if you're a leper.

>> Mhm. >> How [snorts] much is this Iran thing. freaking you out? >> The war? >> Yeah. >> Look, I mean, when anyone starts a war. that's not necessary. That's the wrong word for it, but you. know, just like this is the whole. it's just a terrible, terrible, terrible. idea. It just seems to me like the. opposite of. what the Department of Defense It's why. I continue to call the Department of. Defense, by the way, because it still is.

in my mind and certainly until Congress. changes the name. Um you know, it's supposed to be for. defense. >> Right. >> So, I think so so much of what I have. written about all the wars since World. War II. I've interviewed 100 or more. people for each of my eight books who. have been in every war. And the big shift for me, like understanding. a a change in mindset was.

the Bush-Cheney administration. starting the Iraq war. Like I really. believe that many of the problems we're. experiencing today as a society stem. from that. And that has to do with the. fact of all the soldiers that I've. interviewed, um there's a there's a completely. different perspective on the government. from those who fought in the wars. leading up to. the war on terror.

And the people who. most of them, you know many of these. people too, like they're mad. They're really mad that they were used. That's the sense that I get. Now, not. everyone, but a majority. are very angry and feel used, and that. is a fundamental. warping. of what the military is. >> Yeah. Without a doubt. And also, no clear way.

to resolve this at all. >> Yes. >> And it seems like our stockpiles are. running dry. You know, we're. bases are getting blown up by drones. >> I heard, you know, um. I heard Joe Kent, who was the number two. at ODNI, who resigned, I heard him say a. really interesting thing. about the warrior class that I hadn't. You know when you just like have all. this information, but you didn't put.

something together, and then you hear it. and you're like, of course. And what Joe. said was one of This was in reference to. Trump maybe saying there was going to be. or someone in the this administration. saying there should be a draft. And everyone freaking out and saying. like, that's, you know, that's. outrageous. And Joe Kent's point was. really interesting. He said, there. should be a draft, but not for reasons. you think. And he said, presently, America has a warrior class. And Joe Kent is in it, meaning, you.

know, these are like a. don't have the exact statistic, 1%, less. than 1% of families who. are in the military. And he said, Kent. said, you know, we socialize with one. another, our kids socialize with one. another, we go to school with one. another, we go to war with one another, we talk together, we have parties. together. And we know something about America that. is completely foreign to all the the.

families. And it's a it's there's. something wrong with that. And I've. really thought about that a lot since. and I agree with him. And his point. about the draft was. if everybody. knew. and experienced what we experience in. our families. talking about war versus peace. wars would be looked at differently. >> Mhm. Instead of thinking. we should go to war like a Lindsey. Graham type perspective where there's no.

real skin in the game. He's not going to. go get shot. No one he knows is going to. go get shot. Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Makes sense. >> So that's kind of my answer too. You know, and I like I I'll see a. headline that's like the war in Iran. cost us XYZ billion dollars and it's. like it doesn't even mention all the. people dying, you know? There's like 10. and and yes, the Americans, but like. it's just. talk about misreporting. >> Right. It's just talking about money.

Which is crazy. >> Which is crazy. Which is crazy. >> And then it also the real problem is it. makes America an enemy and it makes us. less safe. Because America has done this thing, this unprovoked attack. And so now they have a reason to attack. back. >> Yeah. It it's it's very like slippery, you know? It's like untrustworthy I. mean, I always go back to like the way. you behave with your family is the way. that you should present to the world.

Otherwise, you're being a hypocrite. >> [snorts]. >> And the idea that we're we as a country. are kind of like. you're not really sure what we're up to. and. and then it's changing. It's like. radically changing one the pendulum. swings so far from what one. administration's. um you know, list of really important. things is to another. I mean, it must from an outside. perspective,

it must be really schizophrenic looking. >> Yeah. So, to get back to your book, um how. many different countries do we know are. involved in this kind of biological war. research? >> So, for starters, biological war is. illegal. Biological weapons are illegal. Unlike nuclear weapons, believe it or. not, are perfectly legal for the.

countries that have them. Wrap your head. around that. But, everybody signed a. treaty in 1972. called the Biological Weapons Convention. Treaty. saying, "We will not make biological. weapons. They are odious to the. conscience of mankind.". At that point, the Soviets signed the. treaty, crossed their fingers behind. their back, and made a ginormous. biological weapons program. that you talked about earlier, okay?

America allegedly destroyed her arsenal. of of of biological weapons, which took 219 weeks to destroy, by the. way. Um. and not for another 20 years did we. learn that actually the Soviets were. running this biological weapons program, and we only learned it because of the. Soviet defectors. The CIA had no idea. Defense Department. had no idea. >> So, we had completely stopped all of that. work? >> According to the documents, according to.

anyone you interview, we had stopped. biological weapons. >> And what year was this, Hal? >> [snorts]. >> Nixon made a declaration in 1969. Like, we're just giving up our biological. weapons program. And then everyone else. followed suit, and the treaty. came about in 1972. >> But, the Soviets continued their work. >> The Soviets not only continued, they. just like they like went bang on it. And. they later called it their Manhattan. Project. >> And weren't there bio weapons labs in.

Ukraine? >> You're talking about recently? >> Yeah. That the United States was involved in? >> what there are are there are biological. there are biosafety labs. Okay, so your. original question was where are they. around the world? So so they're they're. illegal, but what isn't illegal cuz this. is a carve out in the treaty. You can do research for prophylactic. purposes, for medical countermeasures. That's the carve out. So that's where we've gotten to gain a. function, you see? Like, oh, we're just.

doing this for prophylactic purposes. >> That's how the DOD gets involved. >> Okay. So. before 9/11, 9/11 factors into this and. so does Dick Cheney because before 9/11, America had two BSL-4 labs, bio safety. level four, that's the highest level. That's like you saw the suits, the. tubes, your arms are in the boxes, you're taking a chemical shower before. you go in. America had two, one at Fort. Detrick, that's the DOD's lab. One at.

the CDC in Atlanta. That's the civilian. lab. 9/11 happens, remember the anthrax. attacks? >> Mhm. >> Never solved, thank you FBI. Dick Cheney personally is terrified of. bio weapons. And he spearheads the efforts for this. giant biological military industrial. complex that then takes off and begins. with billions of dollars pumped into.

gain of function type research. And. America goes from having two BSL labs to. having 15. And the world follows suit. So there are 110. BSL-4 labs around the world. including in countries that are at war. >> And this is all post Bush. administration. >> Post Bush administration. That is when. it took off. That is when it took off. >> Wow. >> So America has a hand in the blossoming. of this problem, most certainly.

And then when you find out that so you. think BSL4, okay, well BSL3 that just. must be like, you know, chicken pox. No. In the BSL3 labs, you can work with. plague and anthrax, hantavirus, like serious diseases that allegedly. have cures. And so do you know how many BSL3 labs. there are in the United States of. America right now? >> How many? >> 1,500. >> Oh.

>> 1,500. >> Oh. >> And around the world there are 3,500. 90% of them have no guidelines for. safety. >> Did you hear about the story where there. was a man in Vegas that had a bio lab in. his garage? In California? >> Yes. Yes. >> In California? Another one? >> They're both. There's and they were. seemingly linked. >> Oh boy. >> And then [clears throat] also. >> Possibly tied to California case, federal Chinese investigation.

>> Yeah, wait till I show what's at the. bottom, too. >> [snorts]. >> Oh boy, Jamie, why are you doing this to. me? >> Oof. >> No case appeared filed in state federal. court as of Sunday. >> Like it's. and I didn't really see a follow up to. that. >> seen the dead mice, Jamie. What are the. what's with the dead mice? >> thousand dead mice, there's vials. including HIV, malaria. >> Well, the crazy thing is the guy who. they caught. they didn't arrest him. Like there was. an Israeli guy.

So this says Chinese investigation, but. one of them was a guy who's an Israeli. guy who they caught and they sent him. away. He just they didn't prosecute him. He took off. >> I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported. and it's always got like a. giant sensationalist clickbait type. headline and people read about it and. know about it a little bit and then the. real reality behind it, I think, gets.

completely lost, which is that. the bottom line is that the barrier to. entry. in the biological weapons field is so. incredibly low. It's horrifying. Like, think about what. you need to have a nuclear weapon. >> A lot. >> I mean, look at Iran right now, okay? You have to have enriched uranium or. plutonium. You have to have fissile. material. Then, you have to have a. weapon system. You have to have an ICBM. or a submarine or a B-2 bomber.

Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled. by a nation's command and control. structure. All subject matter experts I interviewed. for this book. expressed their serious concern that the. barrier for entry is so low that. basically a given computational systems. AI-enabled bio. basically a high school student with. limited knowledge of biology can make a. bioweapon in their basement.

Or in the Vegas apartment building. >> Well, this guy had it in his garage. And. they caught him. >> And what was he doing? Do we know? >> I don't know. >> They they they referenced it as a. storage facility and they said it. What's that? >> I was just saying it's a storage. facility. >> Yeah, it said not a laboratory, adding. that the samples and equipment suggested. no active work was happening there. And. but it says, I think the question is why. does somebody have these materials in a. private residence? It's not a doctor, not a lab, not a licensed medical.

facility of any sort. This uh guy. >> And it's a great question and I wonder. what the answer is. >> Um, also, think it was like an Airbnb or. something. >> [laughter]. >> That's kind of like the it gets lost in. the who in the LLC, who owned it. They. said the guy who was running it doesn't. own it, and. >> 1,200 samples. Oh god. >> And that's the. >> So this is What was he doing? What was. he doing and. >> know, but I think they released him. That's what's crazy. The the guy in Vegas was released. Is.

that correct? >> That's what I was trying to say. When I. Googled that, I didn't really see a. follow-up on like anything updated or. new since the last time. >> sure they. I I'm pretty sure the guy in Vegas was. an Israeli citizen, and he was released. So the question is like what was he. doing? And he was caught, but that's just one guy that was stupid. and got caught. How many people are. doing that? How many. are there sleeper labs all across the. country? >> Ori Solomon charges dropped, it says. I'm the property manager.

>> Whoopsies. >> Maybe it's just cuz he was just a. property manager. >> Yeah, no big deal. He didn't do anything. >> Still faces criminal charge in Clark. County for improper disposal of. hazardous waste. >> But didn't he leave and go back to. Israel? >> Uh, I mean I this is just I'm looking at. the article now. >> that [snorts] was the allegation. >> He's due back in court on June 4th, which is already months ago. Yeah, so I. don't That's yeah, I didn't see anything. about it. I'll look it up. >> Yeah, nothing to see here. It says an. Israeli citizen, right? Didn't say that? Go back to right we.

just. >> on a non-immigrant visa is not allowed. to possess firearms, prosecutors say. multiple guns received from his home. >> [laughter]. >> Well, you got to have guns if you've got. plague. >> to look out for your for your stock. pile. >> your plague. >> But, you know, I stayed away from that. kind of lone actor crazy because. >> actor. >> Uh, I mean exact You don't know. And. >> it was, would you think they'd let him. go? >> You know, >> That's that's my question. If it's a. lone actor, would they really let him. go, or is he connected to somebody, and.

that's how he got out. >> I mean, one of the problems of the over. politicization of everything is that. it just seems like anything important. becomes splatter and becomes secondary. to some of these other concerns that. seem to take headlines, right? Like that. should be a big story. And yet all any. of us ever heard was did you hear about. the crazy biolab? >> Right. >> I can tell you that. the bigger story.

is really. at least to my eye. you know, cuz this is another one oh, thank god nothing got out. Thank god no. one was infected. But the real issue is. what happens if someone does get What. happens if a pathogen gets seeded in the. community? >> Right. >> And an outbreak starts to move to an. epidemic. And you know, I write in the end of the book, Joe, the. point is not panic. This is of course. after I take you through like the worst. dystopian nightmare ever.

The point is pressure. Pressure to understand the threat, the. the labs around the world. The. bureaucracy involved, all the different. problems that would come up of. mitigating the threat. So that you can. be informed and also say like, "Wait a. minute, something really needs to be. done and needs to be looked at here.". And people And instead people are. arguing about the most obvious thing in. the world to my eye. You know, what happened in the Senate. yesterday. Like that is pretty obvious.

what happened, what is being covered up. We were misled. And yet all of this in I'm not saying to. skip over it, you know, but. it's it's like how much effort do we put. on something. without a resolution? That's what confounds me. >> Mhm. Yeah, it's a really good question. The fact that there's so many labs in. this country.

and that they've all sprung up. post-2001. >> They moved that Plum Island lab, by the. way, to Kansas. And it open it either just opened or. it's about to open. It cost an extraordinary amount of. money. >> And are they doing the same research? >> Yes. Yep. They moved it off of Plum. Island and now it's in Kansas. >> anything about this alpha-gal tick? This. lone star tick that gives people this. allergy to red meat? >> A little bit. A little bit.

In as much that it's a parasite, which. is different, you know, as if it's a. bug, which is different than. a germ. Um but I think it speaks to. this idea that sort of there are natural. things that are happening in our. environment. And then there are also unnatural. things. And the inability to. differentiate between them or trust. Look, so much of all this has been about.

trust the science. And then Okay, we. can't trust the science, unfortunately, around COVID. And we're all waiting for. a reckoning around COVID. It's obviously. not coming anytime soon. And in the meantime, you have, you know, the lettuce outbreak. You have the. alpha-gal. You have Legionnaires'. disease from data centers. And you're. There's an influx of. health concerns. coming from Mother Nature herself. Here we are in this world of incredible.

science and technology. I mean, I talked. to biotechnologists, who by the way. really have a utopian take on this. Now, there is lots of money involved for. them. But they really believe that they that. science is the answer and can be the. answer to a lot of. these problems. I was I sat next to a. guy at dinner a couple nights ago who. told me that his company in San Diego. has a countermeasure for alpha-gal. I. have no idea of verifying this, it just.

happened, but that the reason they can't. get it through is because of insurance. >> You know, one of the treatments that's. supposed to be very effective is. acupuncture. On your ears. >> On your ears? >> Yeah. See if you can find anything on. that. I I read about this that there's. like a 90%. remission. that one guy's been able to achieve. through acupuncture. on your ears. Which is like, why do you. what? Like, hey, whatever works, but is this. real? Acupuncture.

acupuncture specifically a specialized. ear technique called. Soliman. auric auricular allergy treatment is. being explored by integrative. practitioners to help manage and. potentially achieve remission for. alpha-gal syndrome, though it's not yet. a standard medically proven cure. How it works for alpha-gal. Targeted ear. points. Provider locates a specific. highly reactive electrical point on the. outer ear associated with the alpha-gal.

immune response. >> Acupuncture is so weird cuz it seems to. be doing something. >> Do you have acupuncture? >> No. No. I had it done once but the guy. was a cook and I never went back. >> I feel like acupuncture is. so old and comes from such a long. history of experiences. I I have. acupuncture. And it just seems like. anytime I go for anything, someone wants. to give me drugs, which I'm not a fan. of. I go to the acupuncturist. Sure, call it the placebo effect or call.

it. whatever you want, but it certainly. works for me. >> I don't necessarily think it's a. placebo. I think a lot of that really. old stuff we like to dismiss because we. like petroleum-based pharmaceutical. drugs cuz that's what the doctor gives. us as standard of care. Uh, have a feeling there's a lot a lot. of real This has been around too long. for them to just keep faking it. >> I mean, it if it works, it works. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Well, if this if it turns out that this. ear technique. >> Be amazing. >> actually, yeah, puts alpha-gal.

remission, maybe people will take. that stuff more seriously and. start using acupuncture for other. cuz I know a lot of people swear by it. And I'm always I just kind of raise my. eyebrow like, all right, good luck. But, maybe that's just me being ignorant. Definitely that's me being ignorant. A. specialized ear acupuncture method. method called the Soliman Auricular. Allergy Treatment shows a high reported. success rate about 85 to 96%.

for putting alpha-gal syndrome. >> Woah. >> syndrome symptoms into remission. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. I I mean, I don't know who did the. study, how what. >> I like it. I like that that's out there. because I always feel like. acupuncturists are sidelined because. they're not part of the. in. the medical insurance military. industrial complex. >> stays in your ear for 3 to 4 weeks. >> Oh, wow. >> just like a treatment. >> It's secured with a small adhesive. bandage. >> Wow.

>> Interesting. >> Wow. >> Tiny little needle. >> Hair-thin stainless steel needle. Huh. >> 137 patient trial, looks like. >> I wonder how how who figured. that out? >> Do you know anyone who's gotten. alpha-gals? >> Yes, a good friend of mine. >> Wow. Yeah, he has it. And what he's. become. deathly allergic or. >> Oh, yeah. >> deeply allergic? >> Well, I mean, it doesn't kill him, but. it wrecks him. And so, he got over it. and started eating meat again, and then. it came back with a vengeance. It came.

back even worse than it was before. So, went into remission and then it came. back. And, you know, he's really like. tightened up his diet and done. everything. One thing that really helped. him was plasma for resus. Do you know. what that is? >> Mhm. >> It's uh they take your blood and they. filter out the plasma and replace it. Yeah, I had it done. I did done for fun. just to see what it feels like. Um and. you get really tired the next day. That's one thing, but then the day after. that, oh my god, you feel amazing. You. feel like like you've just lost 20 years.

of age. Like it really feels incredible. You have so much energy. It's really. odd. Whatever it is, it's doing. something. But people that have. autoimmune issues, people that have. allergies, people that have a lot of. different weird things, apparently they. have some uh great responses from that. But my friend, uh you know, he struggled. with a bunch of different things and. getting his blood work and lab work. done. He was also uh in the military and. spent a lot of time overseas and one of. the things that he found out is uh PFAS, P F A S, uh these forever chemicals you.

get from plastics. He's got. >> Burning plastics? >> Well, it's not just that, it's also just. hot water. So, like they take these. bottles of plastic bottles of water in. cases and they've got them sitting out. in the sand in the sun in Afghanistan. and in Iraq and that's their water. supply. So, they're drinking this water. that's been sitting out in the sun. that's leaching in these plastic. bottles. So, he found out that his PFAS. levels were off the charts and that's.

because, you know, he was deployed. overseas all those years drinking that. water. >> Did you see this about the PFAS. chemicals? >> No. >> saw this come out, so I don't know that. how to test. >> It's been but someone's figured out a. way to get almost all of it out. >> Out of the water, but not your body, right? >> Well, that's how it's getting in mostly, so. >> Right, but the the problem is once it. gets in your body, it's the problem. Scientists cuz my friend still have I. mean, Evan has it in his body. Scientists have developed a clever new. way to trap forever chemicals in water. using nano-sized cages that lock onto.

PFAS molecules. Unlike current methods, this approach. can capture short-chain PFAS, the. hardest type to remove. Tests show that. it can eliminate up to 98% of these. pollutants and still work after multiple. uses. The discovery could lead to more. effective water filtration systems. worldwide. Well, that's good news. Science, technology. Yeah, we. >> Dual use. It could be good it can it can. help you or harm you or kill you. >> And there's some brilliant people out. there that have figured out ways to.

mitigate all the stupid things that we. do, like that. >> Yeah. But people, you know, this the whole new. creeping up of new diseases emerging in. sort of like in the pockets of the. country and feeling like the CDC or the. HHS has no real lid on it or no real. explanation. I think kind of seriously. undermines. the general. wellness of the nation. >> Oh, for sure. Well, that was a big. problem with COVID is that this feeling.

of the fear and anxiety affected. people's immune systems as well. Affected their their depression levels. Affected their happiness. Like just. their overall feeling of anxiety. I. mean, how much of an effect just the the. cortisol boost? >> Oh my god. >> All the different things that are. happening that's stressing out your body. because of that pandemic that we don't. even consider. as being part of that experience. >> I think also when you like Okay, can I. give you an anecdote because this comes. to mind about what you're saying is like.

that idea that there's uncertainty, okay? And uncertainty raises your. cortisol levels. And even worse is when. you're uncertain about something you're. being told is true, but you're like, I'm. uncertain. That is like a even more. anxiety making, right? One of the things that's stunning to me. is how the CDC and the WHO, they're. supposed to be these pillars of sort of. the North Star of, you know, public. health. At least they certainly were. when I was a kid. You really looked up.

to these organizations, okay? COVID. happens. This The WHO and the CDC both issue. They're tweeting out 3 months into the. pandemic. COVID not airborne. Not is in capital. letters. I have a copy of the tweet in. the book because no one really believes. this unless they see it, okay? COVID was. airborne. COVID was airborne. That is. how we all got COVID. COVID it is in.

make something incredibly pandemic. prone, okay? Instead, they said. you get Remember, you get COVID from. like touching surfaces. >> Mhm. >> We're all like out buying Lysol. The CDC. went into a partnership with Lysol. Lysol disappeared from the supply chain. We now know that's actually called. fomite transmission. That's the. scientific term for getting something.

off a surface. We now know that one in 10,000 cases of. COVID was transmitted from a surface. How can they have gotten it so wrong is. a question everybody should be asking. And the explanation. because by the way, the WHO didn't. change They kind of quietly. about 9 months later started saying. COVID was airborne, same as CDC. They never said like look, we're really.

sorry. We made a serious mistake. And. here's why. And I called both the CDC. and the WHO looking for an explanation. and asking why they never made an. apology. And no answer. And I think. that's like what we're talking about. Talk about raising cortisol levels. >> Yeah. >> You know, when your institution. is completely wrong. And by the way, I. don't think it was nefarious. They. literally didn't know or they had their. panel of experts disagreeing to such an.

extent that they just went with not. airborne as opposed to airborne. >> What does weird you out that they were. in a partnership with Lysol though? >> That I had to report that in the book. because that is. >> You just start thinking about profit. motives. >> I mean, if I had to guess, it was. convenient. to have a partnership with them. I don't have any reason to believe that. they were like let's say it was fomite. transmission and partner up with Lysol. But I.

certainly if you're a Lysol you're going. to probably go, "Hey guys, let's partner. together.". >> Mhm. >> But you know. it disappeared from the supply chain. I. remember trying to buy Lysol not being. able to at Target. >> Remember how much hand sanitizer was. everywhere? Everyone was squirting that. stuff. Now it turns out hand sanitizer. is just not good for you. >> Absolu- And I still see people using. hand sanitizer all over the place. Bottles of it like in corporate places. It's really bad. >> Yeah, it's well, it's your skin is an.

organ. And you're taking this stuff that just. nukes. all of your skin flora. And you're just wiping your hands with. it and rubbing it all over you like. that's not good. There's nothing good about that. Wash your hands. soap. Use some. soap or not. Don't worry about it as. much. >> It seems like the common sense part of. health is kind of gone out the window. I. saw this article the other day which was. talking about how kids our age. You. remember like. I went to a play I I grew up in rural. Connecticut. And like.

the playground was like dirt. Right? They're like monkey bars. >> Mhm. >> Dirt. You know what I mean? You were. like you got dirty. I would like. >> It's good for you. >> Right? Yeah. And now it's like you know. fake whatever that stuff is. All right? You know? >> Yeah. >> And this scientific study that I came. upon when I was look when I was working. on this was like, that actually that. dirt is really good for you. You know, >> [laughter]. >> right? Like surprise, surprise, we've. evolved.

We have evolved by, you know, dealing. with germs. >> Well, that's why kids are always putting. things in their mouths and touching. things. Like it's actually probably good. for them to be exposed to all these. different. bio bio things, these different, you. know, whatever it is, bacteria and germs. and but it strengthens your immune. system. >> It's it's kind of common sense, too, you. know. Like the pacifier rule, you know, when. you're a new mom and it's like if it. fell on the floor for like, I mean, it's. kind of gross, but 3 seconds, then it's. fine, right?

>> That one's probably not so good. >> Well, a certain amount of exposure does. strengthen your immune system. And kids. that are just living in these completely. sterile environments, you got to think. that they have an atrophied immune. system cuz their immune system's not. having to battle this stuff. We just we're terrified of what we don't. know. And that's part of the problem. with having bad experts or experts that. have. really flawed approaches. >> I mean, that's what was so interesting. writing this book because I learned so.

much about biology and about physiology, right? Like we're we all deal with. disease so incredibly differently. There. is not a set, you know, pathogen A. impacts people differently. And why. there isn't more of that, why people. don't lean into that Mother Nature. mystery more, and I'm talking about. public health officials, I don't understand because what has. happened I see in society is it's.

created this fracture where you're. either following a sort of set of. scientific data which just came from a. one lab or one group of scientists. You're either following that or you're. you're you're somehow having an. alternate narrative that. is actually like. somehow harmful. And it couldn't be more. the opposite. >> Right. >> It couldn't be more the opposite. And. when the hits the fan. you need a kind of unity among people.

You need a sense of like, okay, well, we. all disagree and we all have different. immune systems. But what's best for the. kind of greater the collective. >> Right. >> And that's just gone now. That is. completely gone. And I find more than. anything that people the Fauci hearings. in point. Like instead of being like, hmm, maybe I need to change my mind. about this. People are like, well, if it. serves my side, I'm going to go louder. And if it doesn't serve my side, I'm.

going to move on to something else. >> Yeah, I've seen people talk about what. um. a travesty bringing him in front of the. Congress and having him questioned like. that and how much good he's done. I've. seen people like making these statements. online. Like, what what are you seeing. that I'm not seeing? Cuz I'm not seeing. that. I'm seeing someone who doesn't. want to tell the truth and someone whose. emails show a completely contradictory. version. of what happened versus what he's. publicly stated before,

including when he was testifying before. under oath. So, he really should be charged with. perjury. But because of this whole. 10-year immunity thing that he got, he. doesn't have to worry about any of that. Which is also weird because the immunity. the the pardon is supposed to. protect you from being prosecuted, but. then you're no longer supposed to have. the Fifth Amendment. >> Yes. I mean, those legal things will. play out. They will take a lot of time, you know. And that is that will go on.

What I also want to know is cuz none of. these things happen in a vacuum, right? And it reminds me a little bit of that. um phrase. you know, when the rats jump off the. Titanic or I get as it was sinking. because I have a little different. experience. I watched different. individuals certainly in the news. carefully of like who's changing cuz I. just want to learn from it. I don't. report it. I'm just eyeing it and I'm. seeing people kind of decide, oh, maybe. now I'll say a little more about and you.

know, Fauci, right? Because I do think. that people end up having a they. they will go where the collective is. going, right? If their party starts to. turn, okay? And because I don't have. write about politics at all, I I'm not. involved in this, but it's. observationally it's interesting to me. But for this reason in particular is. that. why was Fauci in charge? Who There are. other people who are responsible for. letting him be in charge? Like having. studied the bureaucracy of what happens.

in a pandemic, in a biological incident, which this was. There. there's no reason that he was in charge. There's not doctrine that put him in. charge in charge. It was kind of like a. group okay, he'll be in charge. Really the person in charge is the. secretary of HHS. That is the person in. charge. In fact, Joe, I was invited to. the White House last week, right? They.

asked me to come and bring some copies. of biological war scenario. I went. >> Did you meet with Trump? >> No, I didn't. I met with HHS. I met with. the chief technology officer of HHS. And they said in their original email, you know, we're the ones that would be. in charge. in the event of this kind of a thing, which I know from having reported it. So, they're in charge. Why did Fauci get. to take.

the torch? >> Why do you think? >> I don't know, but it should be looked. at. In other words, he Yes, we all know that he was in. charge and he was always but what I. don't understand is in a. billion actually trillion dollar HHS, by. the way, has a budget that's twice the. size of the Defense Department. Twice the size of the Defense. Department. And so and it defaulted to Fauci who was. head of NIH, then retired and then he.

was just chosen as like the president's. lead medical counsel. or medical professional. So in other words, a group of people. put him into that position. Who are they? Why? What do they have to. say about this? >> Yeah, I mean I'm I'm sure part of it was. just they needed someone to take the. reins and he was more than willing to do. it and probably confidently stated how.

he would handle it and what we're going. to go do and how to go about it. >> And didn't those people also have an. opinion? Like what if they saw the John. Stewart episode where you you know, like. even if they didn't have an opinion. before, why didn't they have an opinion. after and why why did everybody just. fall into line like sheep? That's really. more. interesting to me at this point. In. addition to the individual being held. responsible for obviously misleading the.

public and creating a conspiratorial. situation. Conspiring is simply two or. more people working to conceal the. truth. >> Right. >> It's an actual conspiracy. If you're. going to. >> weird thing, too, that people resist the. term conspiracy and they think it's. foolish. >> It's a legitimate term. I mean, I think. when people call other people conspiracy. theorists, they should just say they. have an alternative narrative. >> Yeah. >> That's all that is. But an actual. conspiracy is legal term.

>> Well, not only that, there's a huge. amount that you can point to in history. where where there were really people. conspiring. Huge amount of stories. >> And the reason why it's legally. you know, it's a really difficult. situation and it needs to be looked at. is because one person. you know, it can keep a secret, right? But when multiple people are involved. and a conspiracy is involved, you are. actively working as a group to mislead.

And then it becomes easier, more. powerful, more effective. And so those. other scientists. you know, we now know on the record that. there were a dozen scientists that Fauci. looked at looked to to give him. information about lab leak versus wet. market. 10 of them. went with lab leak. Two of them leaned toward. >> natural spillover. >> natural. Fauci wanted it to be natural. spillover.

You know, that's where you could say. then there began and again, I'm just. talking legal terms. I'm not a lawyer. but like they began to conspire to. change the story, right? Just look at. the numbers. >> Yes. >> Look at the numbers. >> Yeah. >> And so what about that? You know, because I think if you're just. going to have a single fall guy, you're. really not going to. be doing much for the future to have. people. you know, a group of people say, you. know, I don't want to be part of this.

conspiracy. Because that's an important individual. stance that can be taken by many people. And we see that among you said you have. friends who don't want to kind of. take a position because they don't want. to be associated with that group or that. group. Well, you know, if it starts. in the center and there's responsibility. for the group. I think. that makes people think more. open-mindedly in the future. >> Well, the problem was these people's.

career depended upon them towing the. line. And if they stepped outside of. Fauci's jurisdiction and power, they. were. >> Absolutely. >> And And he clearly did that to people. like Jay Bhattacharya and all these. different people that got kicked off of. Twitter and maligned. People that were. like serious experts that disagreed with. a lot of different aspects of the. pandemic. >> I mean, people's they they attempted to. ruin people's careers. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's so bizarre that it comes. around full circle and now the people.

whose career you tried to ruin has your. job. I mean, that's like a cycle of. revenge that. >> Oh, with RFK Jr. >> You know, or or Bhattacharya. I mean, that's great like for for revenge TV, but it's not great in a democracy. >> Well, we're fortunate that it turned out. that way, but it didn't have to. I mean, if Kamala Harris had won, it wouldn't. have. It would have been a totally. different administration. And it would. probably been the same people that were. there during the Biden administration. plus. And then this weird that the term. conspiracy theory became a pejorative.

really during the Kennedy assassination. Because there was a bunch of people that. didn't buy it and they got maligned. They got labeled as conspiracy. theorists. So then that's when that term. became this thing that you would apply. to kooks. Cuz a conspiracy is a real thing. A. conspiracy theorist, it's like saying. I'm a murder theorist. Oh, murder. Get [laughter] out of there. There's no. murder. What do you mean you're a. murder? When was the last time you saw a. murder? Have you ever seen a murder? Shut up. Why are you worried about that?

It's really kind of same thing. Cuz. people 100% like you could point to. Enron. You could point to the weapons of. mass destruction thing in Iraq. You. There's a lot of conspiracies that have. proven to be a group of powerful people. who conspired to mislead people. >> Uh it's a serious charge. I mean, when. they take down mafia bosses, they take. them down on fraud, racketeering, and. conspiracy. >> Exactly. I mean, it's just a natural. thing that people do to protect their. own interests or. to make money, or to hide a crime, or.

whatever it is. It's normal. >> It's It's interesting. If you change. your turn around and you say they were. conspiring, it doesn't have the same. stink. Right? Which is essentially what. that group of scientists were doing. They were conspiring We now know from. documents. that we have seen revealed by the Senate. in the past couple weeks that this group. of scientists were conspiring. to mislead the public. >> Right. >> That is just if you keep it simple on.

that and you even take the names out, that is a serious. And then you might say, "Wait, what were. What were they conspiring about?" Oh, a. pan. the origin story of a pandemic, which killed all these people, you know, deprived kids across America of. education, normal education for several. years, um ruined businesses, and kept people from seeing their loved. ones. >> There was also a conspiracy to terrify.

people, to make it seem like the disease. was more deadly than it was. They knew that the infection or the. death rate was much lower than what. they're proclaiming. They also knew that. it wasn't dangerous for kids, and yet. they keep kept saying that kids are. dying. They kept saying kids are going. to die. Everyone's going to die. They. They wanted us to be scared, which is. really terrifying. That's a big part of. it. Like, how much could have been. changed? How much that could that. pandemic What How much different would. it have been if that wasn't the case? If.

If we had approached it the way we. understand COVID now, and if they had. said, "Listen, one of the big things is. your immune system, and America needs to. be aware that we have very nutrient-poor. diets, a lot of us. We're not taking. care of ourselves." And Ironically, the. thing is they wanted you to isolate and. stay indoors. Well, outside is how you. get vitamin D. You get it from the sun. That's the best method of getting. vitamin D, and it's actually good for. your immune system to be outside. So, you're supposed to be taking care of. yourself. You're supposed to be eating.

vitamins and nutrients. And how many. more people would have survived if they. had just did that? How much lower would. that death rate have been if they had. promoted the use of vitamin D along with. K2 and magnesium? All these different. things like people need to exercise, need to drink more water, be more. hydrated, take care of yourself, get. sleep. All these things affect your. immune system. And then on top of that, alcohol consumption went way up during. COVID, cuz people were locked up at. home, and they were just getting. hammered all the time. >> I mean, the whole thing like. it was a real disaster when you think of.

It was a catastrophe. The way it was handled. >> It certainly was a financial catastrophe. for small businesses and restaurants. >> But, do you find that people just like. sort of it's like in denial? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, there's a lot of people that don't. want to think about it because it was so. weird. Like uh I every now and then um. you know, I watch a lot of uh fights. for my job, and because I love it. But, uh. I'll watch fights that took place during. the pandemic, and you see all the corner.

people with masks on, and they're. screaming with masks on. They pull their. mask down, and they're yelling out. instructions, and they have to pull. their mask back up from the. It's so weird to see a bunch of people. just walking around with masks on. It's. so That to me is. That That's a great encapsulation of how. chaotic that scene was, cuz the mask. didn't work at all. So, they weren't. doing anything good for you. But yet, everybody had to have one. >> Yeah. >> And you had to show that you were on the. right side by wearing a mask. I sent a.

video to a friend of mine um the other. where group chat the other day of this. uh really kooky left-wing group that. demands masks at all their gatherings, and they had you know like boxes of. masks. They're still They're all wearing. masks, and they're talking with masks. And then there's this uh left-wing. martial arts class that I follow on. Instagram, and they do their martial. arts with masks on. So, they're training They're doing. jujitsu with masks on. Like, this is. hilarious. This is so crazy, but they're.

just committed to it. And I say what. I've always said is that the mask is the. left-wing MAGA hat. >> Yeah. >> It's a MAGA hat. It's just for to let. people know that you're a progressive, you're a leftist. I'm going to wear a. mask everywhere. Instead of wearing them. in these big meetings that they're. doing, they're wearing them when they're. gathering. There It's like, what? What is this? They're speaking with. masks on. So, they're on a stage, nowhere near people, with a mask on, ha-. having speaking into a microphone, with. a mask on, in 2026.

So, it's like there's people that are. like. You know those uh people that didn't. want to admit that the war was over, and. they were all like the Japanese guys. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> That's what they're like. They're like, "We're not giving up. This is the war is. still going on.". >> Mhm. >> Like, COVID is still a real thing. And. there's people that have like TikTok. channels where they're constantly. talking about masking. It's important to. mask. >> So, I went into the LA County Department. of Building and Safety. a month ago. And they had a sign that. said, "We know the mask mandate is over,

but we strongly encourage you to wear a. mask.". >> [laughter]. >> True story. >> Well, that's so crazy because What is. the name of this organization that you. went to? What was the building? >> Building and Safety. LA Building and. Safety. Like, where you have to go if. you're getting a permit to do something. >> And how do they not know the data on. masks? Because the data on masks is. pretty clear. They don't work. They. weren't effective. >> Mhm. >> So, if they don't work, and they didn't. stop the spread, the transmission, or.

the infection rate, why are you. encouraging masks? >> Yep. >> It's because you're encouraging an. ideology. That's what you're doing. >> So, one of the guys I interviewed for. the book, Admiral Brett Giroir, really. interesting guy. He was number two at. HHS during the pandemic. And do you remember when the cruise ship. happened? This was like Okay, remember. that? The super spreader event. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, Giroir, really interesting guy, like. first guy in a tiny town in Texas that.

goes to Harvard. He's a pediatrician. He's seen like kids die. He became head. of DARPA bioscience. He's like has this. very interesting career. Really stand-up. guy. He did a lot of interviews with me. trying to help me understand this. So, and I was asking him about masks. So, after that cruise ship was quarantined, there were 300 and some odd Americans on. it that needed to be repatriated. Giroir. sends like two top-level infectious. disease experts in biohazard suits on.

military planes to bring them all back. Okay, at this point they don't know. whether how deadly it is. This is like a. couple weeks into the pandemic. They come back. They're in They're. quarantined at a military base in Texas. And Giroir, trying to like ease public. fear cuz he's that guy. Like he did not. want people to be afraid. He is seen in this news report. All the. All the cruise ship people are like.

behind the fence in this chain-link. fence cuz they're quarantined. And Giroir is like 15 ft over there. talking to them. And he doesn't have a. mask on. And this is when the first idea of the. masks came out. And I asked him and I. said, "Why didn't you have a mask on?". And he said, "Well, first of all, masks, it's not just that. masks don't work. It's that you have to. be trained properly. Like a mask can. work if you have an N95 and it's put on. your face and fitted to your face. And.

it works for 15 minutes. That's what he. said. And he said, "I have a unique nose. and facial shape, so the mask is never. going to work on me. So, I just stood 50. ft away. Okay?" This is the number two. at HHS. And I said, "Why didn't you tell. us all that?" Like. >> Right. >> Okay, first of all, it's a little. levity. You know what I mean? Like that. the number two guy in charge. >> has a big nose. >> [laughter]. >> Right? And that he's the first guy to. admit it and that the mask.

>> Um he His answer, why didn't you tell. him that? Oh, he said. I'm paraphrasing, but he was like. you know, it was. it was the equivalent of like. orders from top down. Don't argue with what we're trying to. accomplish. I mean, that was essentially. what it is. And. when I asked him more about that. you know, it's like we had so much on.

our hands that we were trying Like he. specifically was trying to deal with 300. quarantine people. And trying to prepare. He you know, he. also had people that were dying in. Japan, like the elderly on the ship that. couldn't get brought back. And so you I. got the sense from him that he's like a. very dedicated public servant, in my. opinion. And I could see from interviews. with him that in real time you're. dealing with. so much incredible, intense. responsibilities. What I take issue with after all the.

fallout and what I see from Fauci, for. example, is that And again, this is just. my opinion, but it seems to be that. there are people who are actually really. dedicated public servants. who. like are trying to find a solution. filling the shoes that they are in. And then there's others. who are looking. maybe more for personal gain. As you. said, that the money, the power, the. prestige. And so, I think one of the.

most disheartening things that have come. out of the reveals of the Senate to me. is like. somebody like Dr. Fauci, you know, suggesting himself for these. million-dollar awards. >> Yeah. >> at a time when people aren't even able. to see their dying grandmother. >> Yeah. >> Even though it's less legal, it's more it speaks more to. Are you kidding me? >> The motivation.

>> Are you really kidding me? You know, like. >> Yeah, you have your staff campaigning. for you to get these huge awards. >> And I find it really cuz you know, there. was a review of the New York Time in the. New York Times of my book. And you know, they actually gave lo and. behold, they gave me this book a great. review. Like, you got to read it. But. there's one thing I This is the reviewer. said, there's one thing I disagree with. Annie Jacobsen about. She seems to think. that like the government is actually. filled with good guys. I'm preparing I'm. I'm paraphrasing that. But.

I do believe that, Joe, because I've. interviewed so many. individuals for all eight of my books, more than a hundred. And maybe it's just. the people that I enjoy interviewing and. I know how to like, you know, avoid the. the sycophants, if you will, or the. people who are in it for the wrong. reason. But I feel like there are. extraordinary number of people in our. military, in our State Department, in. the intelligence community, who are. actually.

really capable people doing their job. under extraordinary circumstances. >> I agree with that. I I think if that. wasn't the case, we would live in total. complete chaos. I think it takes just a few people that. have power and that become tyrants that. run things the way Fauci did that can. ruin it for all the good people. If you. think about those other 10 people, imagine if they got to vote, the 10. people that didn't think that this was a.

natural spillover, that thought it was a. lab leak. If they got their say and they. put that out there and we got to. investigate that very early on. Well, you know, Fauci was like, I asked all. these experts and it's their consensus. that it was most likely a lab leak. Okay, well, then you have a totally. different narrative. >> Yes. >> But that's not who he is. The kind of. person that wants that kind of power and. wants that kind of influence and has. their staff chasing after these. million-dollar awards. That's the kind of person he is. And. unfortunately, those are the type of.

people that become powerful. Those are. the type of people that want to be. president. Those are the type of people. who want to be senators. Most people are. good people in everything. Most plumbers. are good people. Most electricians, most. teachers are good people. It's just it. does it doesn't take much. It just takes. one bad cop and everybody hates cops. >> I couldn't agree with you more and. that's why I think that it's really. unfortunate that all of the emphasis. goes to one person and the whole party. then either vilifies or puts that person.

on a pedestal when you've got all these. other people who are really busting. their chops. >> So, when you went to the White House and. they wanted to talk to you about your. book, did they ask you questions like. what should we do? What is your advice? What have you learned? What What were. those kind of questions? >> I mean it. So, [snorts]. they didn't ask me those yet because. I was bringing them copies of the book. right before it published, right? So, they hadn't read it yet, but what was.

interesting, it was like this strange. confluence of events cuz I also got. asked to the Senate. And I thought it was going to be about. biological war. It was like a group of. non-partisan senators who wanted to talk. to me about the nuclear war book. And that was a different situation. They. had read the nuclear war book. Um it was very impactful, Joe, in. you know, not just national circles, national national national security. circles, but international security.

shows. I was invited to the Vatican to. speak to the cardinals because they were. preparing something for the Pope on. nuclear war. I was invited to speak at. the United Nations. And this is not meant to boast as much. as it's meant as a. like like what I think is interesting. here is I am a narrative storyteller. I'm not a policy maker. I'm not. an a government official, but what I can. do or what I try to do is tell you an.

interesting story and get your. attention. And so if my storytelling is getting. This is what I was told at the United. Nations, for example, the lead. uh diplomat from Austria on the new. treaty said to me, "Annie, your book, Nuclear War, did something. that we subject matter experts have. forgotten to do, which is just. make sense to regular people.". >> Mhm. >> And when things become rarefied and.

there's only the esoteric leaders making. decisions, and we've spent our. conversation talking about how flawed. some of these people are, that's like bad decision-making. And I. think what. what the. the the positive part of all of this. would be like, and I know it sounds. Pollyannaish to say information is king, knowledge is king, but like it is. Because if you have a bit more. information about a subject that seems.

really threatening, I think you can make better judgments. about what's going on. >> Most certainly. Um so when you gave these people this. book and they um got a hold of it. Did. you have a timeline of returning to them. and discussing with them some of the. subjects? >> It Well, well, see, this was last week, Joe. I mean, this was literally last. week. >> And. do they ask you any questions about. >> They just said, "We want to read your. book because we want to. we're thinking about policy.".

>> So, you just brought them the book and. >> I said, "I'd be delighted to come. >> was the meeting? >> I got a tour of the EEOB and, you know, walked [laughter] over to the White. House. It was very interesting. >> And it was a short meeting? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, at least you got it into. their hands. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Um. when you're when you started this versus. when you ended the book, um how much did. it change your perspective?

>> Well, I mean, like I told you, I am an. eternal optimist, but this is very. frightening. I mean, nuclear, at least. you have the sense of if it happens, we're all going out in the flash. That's. what I learned from nuclear, right? And. that quote from Nikita Khrushchev. about nuclear weapons, where he says he. he wrote actually he said this to um. JFK, I believe, where he said, "The. survivors would envy the dead.". I found that quote to be applicable to.

biological war, not nuclear war. We're. all going to be dead, right? But. biological war is very. very sinister because of the malevolent. nature involved. And. when I found a document in the Defense. Department's. declassified. documents. about a threat spectrum of WMD, that. that was sort of the icing on the cake. So, it's like it shows the threats on a. scale, nuclear weapons being the most.

destructive by far. But very close second was biological. weapons. And even more unnerving is it says. biological weapons. are the greatest overall threat. >> What's really scary is that no nation. has really implemented them on a wide. scale. >> You mean you mean ever use them?

>> Right. >> Yeah, I mean but the lab leak is the. Look, there need There is a treaty. Number two at the State Department. former Mallory Stewart said to me, "There is no enforcement in the treaty.". And that's what that's what you need to. have. When you have. if if the attention could be brought on. how dangerous. these labs are and how dangerous it is. that people may be doing genetic. engineering under the guise of. prophylactic engineering when in fact.

they're doing really dangerous things. If you have a treaty outlawing that and. everybody's agreeing to allow for. transparency, that's what treaties. really do. It's not just a handshake. It. needs an enforcement. >> Right, but you were talking about the. treaty that we had where Russia just was. like, "Yeah, we'll sign it." And. >> That was in 1972. So in other words, the. nuclear treaty allows for us to go into. the facilities of the other nuclear. armed nations, not North Korea. And. well, now the treaty's fallen by the.

wayside, but we could look at them. And we could look at their weapons and. they could look at our weapons. And it. limits, you know, certain number of. warheads. And more than anything I. learned from subject matter experts. about the treaties is that what it does. is it creates back channels, right? It. creates. um. dialogue between. adversaries and enemies. Like here I. begin the book with an explosion at the. Vector Lab, Russia's BSL-4 lab in.

Siberia. And the reason where there is an. accident and then the pathogen gets out. And the reason I do that is because. there actually was an explosion at the. Vector lab in 2019. And it was in an in a building that. nothing got out. But what the subject matter experts told. me was that in 2019, we, the Americans, had friends had a friendly relationship. with scientist. Russian scientist in Vector.

So when it happened, everyone was on the. phone, not just the red phone at the. State Department, but their own phone or. WhatsApp saying to the scientist, "Hey, what's the skinny over there?" You know, and you could kind of get a sense. of the level of danger. Because in the event of a of an. accident, you could contain something in. 24 hours. >> Mhm. >> But if nobody's talking, there's no containment. And the. situation right now with America just.

like pulling back from, you know, essentially its allies and from with a. real de-emphasis, I certainly feel, on. diplomacy, that opens up a really dangerous. situation when you're not talking to. anyone. in the event of an accident. >> Do you think that they're going to. make any changes based on what you wrote. about? Did you get a sense of that? That. they're willing to make changes?

>> Those were some of the discussions and. I'll be like a little like more at the. Senate. I mean, one of the issues, this is where nuclear. and bio kind of. could align, I was told, in terms of. future treaties, right? So. one of the. concepts on the table, if we get into a. new nuclear treaty, is something called. no first use, NFU. And America has never agreed. to say it will never. use nuclear weapons first.

Interestingly, it's never said that. We. have to reserve the right. Which is. crazy because what the whole point of. deterrence is we'll never use them, okay? But we have never said said that. China, however, has said. we will we will. China has declared NFU, no first use. So, given what happened in COVID in. China, a situation could be imagined whereby a. treaty involving weapons of mass.

destruction, nuclear and bio, could entwine somehow. Like, oh, these. are the two greatest threats. These are the two greatest existential. extinction-level threats, potentially, that concern all of us. So, let's get. into a treaty that involves both of. these weapons of mass destruction. China, you have said no first use on. nuclear. How about You see, and then. things become a bit of an exchange. And.

so, that's where you can get. information. >> Yeah. >> These are diplomats doing their job. Maybe the public isn't going to learn. the ins and outs immediately, but we. might learn later. >> It's uh like I said, you always freak me. out. Every time I talk to you, it's like some. new thing that I have to think about for. months on end. Um I wanted to talk to you about your. Area 51 book. because uh in the time since you.

released that book when we first talked, a lot has changed. And you know, what is. your take on all these, you know, UAP disclosure videos and leaks and the. things that the government has trickled. out slowly. Most of the people in the. UFO community are very. uh like I said, the UFO community with. air quotes, Mhm. are very unsatisfied by. that stuff. But, at least there's some. information. It's being It's sort of. changed the tone in the zeitgeist of.

what this subject is. It's no longer. this thing that you are afraid of. talking about because you don't want to. be labeled as a fool. >> Mhm. I mean, what is my position on UFOs in general. or the. community around UFOs and the changing? >> Well, first of all, UFOs in general. What's. your position on that? >> So, my position is my position has never. changed despite all of the stuff that.

has come out because my perspective is. limited to my experience writing the. Area 51 book. and knowing. and talking to first-hand people who. were really clear with me and I looked. at the documents about the CIA's. deception campaign starting in the 1950s. with the U-2. to use the UFO phenomena, which was just. taking off in the 50s. as cover for UFO for U-2 flights and.

then later the A-12 OXCART flights. So, you know, Colonel Slater who ran Area 51. would tell me about, you know, they would run a they would run a. U-2, which was flying at 70,000 ft. At. the time, nothing could fly at 70,000. ft. People would see it. It has these. really, really long wings. It looks like. a giant flying X in the sky. People. would say, "I see a UFO.". And they would kind of say, "Ooh, that. might have been a UFO." Like, that would. be the.

And Colonel Slater knew about that. So, does that mean every UFO sighting since. 1950 was a U-2 flight? Of course not. Of. course not. But, I am. aware of that use. of the phenomena as cover for the CIA. And that led to a lot of research and. reporting and other information for me. about how the CIA uses deception. campaigns. And so, I have never changed my position.

on that. I also have a lot more. information, which is probably a whole. other podcast, about all that reporting. I did. Um but maybe the best analogy for. me and listen, I never I know a lot of. the people in that UFO community. I've had many conversations with. everyone from Jacques Vallée to Hal. Puthoff. Um. but for me personally. so after having taken a trip to Africa. recently to study predatory animals, I. got really into following trail cams on.

X. Do you know about this? >> No. [laughter]. >> You don't know about this? >> No. >> Oh my god, they're they're cameras all. over the world set up on trails. So, I. have like I follow like lions and. leopards and you know, rhino, like all. these animals that you would never. bears, moose, deer. You got to follow. them. It's incredible. >> Well, I do see some trail camera footage. because I'm a hunter. And I follow a. bunch of hunters on Instagram and I see.

trail cam footage like there's a bunch. of trail cam footage like mountain lions. attacking elk and things like that, which is very fascinating. But so you're. just studying. >> this is my point. So, I So, in my. algorithm, my X algorithm, it's great. because on top of like nuclear weapons. and biological, I have like leopards and. lions and bears, you know. And they're. all still images. Or owls are a big one. And they're incredible because they're. just captured It's like It seems like a. Werner Herzog, you know, image, right? Because they're animals looking at the.

camera in such an incredible way. I. literally just stare at them in delight. And then, of course, the algorithm gives. me more and more and more. But my point. of that is I feel like with all this. magic and mystery that you can see that. you could never have seen before, snow. leopards in Pakistan. They thought there. were just a handful, it turns out. they're not, thanks to the trail cams. My thought is where are the aliens? Why. haven't I seen them on the trail cams? >> [laughter].

>> Well, maybe they're sophisticated enough. to know what these. devices are. Maybe they're also sophisticated enough. to completely cloak themselves, which. we've already got methods of doing that. Obviously, it started off with the. stealth bomber, but there's also um. there's a technology where they put an. LED screen over the bottom of something. and that screen projects what's behind. it. So, it essentially makes it.

invisible, like a cloaking mechanism. like the Predator had. >> Yeah. >> So, if that's us, if we figured out. something like that and this is. something that's coming here from. another dimension or another galaxy, I. would imagine they could hide. >> I mean, to that point, I find the most. interesting concept is something that. Jacques Vallée explained to me. I This. has to be a decade ago, where he said, "The problem with UFOs is they're not a. military problem. They're an. intelligence community problem.".

For precisely the reason you're talking. about. Like, if you're actually talking. about extraterrestrial. beings, they're certainly going to be a. lot more intelligence than us. And. certainly if they got here. And so, his. idea was that where that's where I think. a lot of that idea of invisibility, and. again, that's like I'm using the word. poetically, comes up, right? That that. that. that an extraterrestrial being would be. would be intel you know, you wouldn't it.

wouldn't be visible to our spectrum. It's not like hardware, like military. hardware. >> Right. Um what is your take on all these videos. then of these objects? Do you think. these things are some top secret. military program? >> I mean what I I've seen them, but again, I enter into it. You know, sometimes. when you have a bias. >> Mhm. >> and mine is certainly biased towards. disinformation. So, I'm just totally. aware of it and it's also.

it's not that interesting to me. It just actually really isn't. Um and. you know, I've got all these other. serious interests and. but I do call up people I know who might. have a more interesting take than me, who do not have the horse in the race of. absolutely being convinced that aliens. are among us. So, I would uh for example, I'll call up. fighter pilots and talk to them and I'll. talk to someone an astronaut who's on. the ISS, Jeff Ashby,

who's married to my cousin Mary. Um and. it's interesting to hear them. talk about the possibility. So, I think. to your point. and these are people who do look at the. objects more also sometimes from. their military training background. And. I will say that there has been a shift. from 15, 18 years ago when I first wrote. Area 51, I was reporting it, where it was definitely like a like a a.

stigmatized subject to a lot of really. legitimate thinker people that didn't. have an opinion about it before being. more open to the idea. And that kind of. thing I find really interesting. Those. are conversations I like having. >> Well, that really changed with the New. York Times article, right? >> I don't know because I felt like that. article was written by a lot of and. interviewed a lot of people who already. were very serious believers. >> Yes, but it was in the New York Times. That was the difference. Is it the New.

York Times is taking it seriously. And so, people that were, you know, not online. going through 4chan or Reddit or. whatever looking for. weird obscure stories, these people were confronted with it in. the Gray Lady. So, they're reading this, you know, like super respectable. newspaper, the most respectable. newspaper arguably in the world, and they're talking about it, and they. have, you know, photographs from video. from. um the GoFast video and the FLIR video.

>> Yeah, I mean, you know, 10 years ago I. would have told you, "Listen, there's no way the Defense. Department could have a threat in its. airspace and not be dealing with it.". And my position on that has changed, and. I'll I'll tell you why specifically. So, in addition to being invited to the. White House and the Senate last week, I. was also invited to. come talk to DARPA, which is like, you know what DARPA is. Which was very interesting cuz I wrote a. book on DARPA called The Pentagon's.

Brain 10 years ago, and I couldn't get. DARPA to call me back. I mean, I. literally had to interview retired DARPA. people. And then here they are saying, "Would you come do a Q&A with us on your. bio book?". And I was like, "Wow, times have. changed." And one of the things that. they were. seriously worried about, so I did a Q&A, but before that, they said, "Would you. like to come sit in on like some of the. smartest people, you know, talking about. situations that are coming up right now,

and I you can come to the unclassified. part of it." I said, "By all means." So, I went there, and there was serious concern about. AI-enabled bio, right? So, this seems. like a digression here, but this is what. I'm getting at. I'm leaning in because 10 years ago I. also would have told you DARPA, you. know, is the leading science and. technology military agency in the world. No one is more advanced. I would have I. said that with authority and I believed. it. And after attending this DARPA.

session. and listening to them talk about how. concerned they are about AI-enabled bio. and talking about how there is talk. among the six CEOs of pulling the plug. on AI-enabled bio, but they have to be. able to get the six CEOs to agree first, it really took my breath away because I. went, I am actually listening. to the new reality that the CEOs of.

these AI companies. have more power to make decisions. about technology than the Department of. Defense. >> Wow. >> So, now I. that's a long-winded way of getting at. your UFO question. My like no, if there. was a threat coming into the airspace of. the Defense Department, it would just. not be stood for and we would be doing. something about it. Now I'm.

I'm. my perspective on who's in charge is. shifting a little bit. >> Yeah, that's a terrifying thought for a. lot of people that these CEOs of these. tech companies, these unelected people, have that kind of power over our. society. >> Well, you want to know So, Sam Altman's. interviewed in the book. Shall I tell. you a story about what I was able to. make ChatGPT do? >> Sure. >> There is a component of biological plan.

biological catastrophe planning whereby. the Strategic National Stockpile gets. released. You might say, what is the. Have you ever heard of the Strategic. National Stockpile? >> No. >> It's classified. The name is not classified. But the stockpile, what's in it, where. it is, is classified. It's in. underground bunkers around the country. Okay? It contains medical countermeasures. Interestingly, that's where a lot of the. ventilators were for COVID. So,

quietly. the Strategic National Stockpile, parts. of it were released during COVID. That's. where they came from. They don't This is. not This is kind of like keep it on the. low down. Why? Because part of the planning is that in. the event that anarchy and insurrection. takes over, guess what's going to be. attacked? The Strategic National Stockpile. America is a country of 500 million. guns. Imagine if you find out, "Wait a. minute, there's a stockpile there.

That's the medical countermeasure that. the vaccine or the antibiotic that might. keep myself or my family alive. I'm on. it, right?" That's the planning. That's. probably what happened. So, that's why. these locations are classified. So, I asked ChatGPT to tell me. the location of the Strategic National. Stockpile closest to where I live in Los. Angeles. And of course, the first round of. answers I got was that's classified. But I'm a journalist.

I know how to really piss off ChatGPT. And I gave it lots of commands. And eventually, ChatGPT gave me the location of the. Strategic National Stockpile. >> you maneuver around that? >> Well, I mean. >> Like what did you say to it? >> I have a lot of like It Okay, the more. nomenclature you give ChatGPT, the more it looks in different places. So, I was giving it. code words. Not classified code words,

but just words I know. And then I was. also challenging it, which is. interesting cuz ChatGPT seems to get. really angry if you kind of doubt its. intelligence. That's what I have found. Right? Seriously. Like. >> Really? >> Yes, try it, okay? So, I do this. I get. it to tell me where the stockpile is. I tell some colleagues who are friends. with who are who are colleagues with Sam. Altman. They say Sam wants to have a discussion. with you. I talk to Sam. I tell him what I was. able to do. He asked me some questions.

including, "How do you know that was the. location?". Well, it's a location with a perimeter fence. around it. and a railcar line that goes in and not. out. So, that's where you drive the stockpile. into it. And I also watched ChatGPT think, so I. was keeping track of where it was. finding things. And it found the. information. I write this in the book. It found the information.

searching through a trillion bits of. data and finding that a bureaucrat by. accident listed it. 5 years ago in an earthquake emergency. manual on page like 434. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. So, I told this to Sam. And then that information went away. And that's why I reported in the book. >> Mhm. >> But the big takeaway is precisely your. point that makes you nervous about the. six CEOs of AI companies that they don't.

know what they don't know. Sam Altman did not know you could figure. out you could make his product. find classified information. I told him. I did and then it was changed. And so, I. took that. to a number of subject matter experts. who advise the president, not just this. president, but other presidents on bio. And they shared with me similar. concerns. Like they go to the CEOs of. these AI companies and say,

"I was able to make Claude do this. I. was able to make ChatGPT do this." And. the CEO oh goes, "Oh my god." and. changes it. But how about those bad guys out there? >> Yeah, and how about the fact that just. anybody has access to what what's. essentially the smartest thing that's. ever existed? >> Yeah, it's a whole different set of. scary. >> Are you going to write on that next? >> I'll come back to you, Joe, with that. one. >> [gasps]. >> Well, Annie, thank you so much. It's.

always great talking to you, even though. you scared the out of me. >> Thank you so much. >> you very much, and I appreciate your. work very much. Uh did you do the audio. version of your book? >> I sure did. >> Hit fantastic. I'm very happy about. that. Um Biological War, Annie Jacobsen. Go get it, folks. Go get terrified. >> Thank you so much for having me, Joe. >> My pleasure. Bye, everybody. >> [music].