Joe Rogan Experience #2533 - Diana Pasulka

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. like Travis Walton at all. >> You know who he is, right? >> Of course I know who he is. Yeah. Yeah. And I I believe him. >> I do, too. >> I mean, he he certainly seems. believable. I I'm you know people that. tell the same story for decades and. decades without any variation to it.

It's hard. I mean, you know, he I don't. know what happened, but all the people. that were with him during the time we're. talking about, for people just listening. now, talking about Travis Walton, who. was a man who in the 1970s was a logger. in Arizona, and he was uh allegedly, or. according to him, abducted by aliens. And uh the people that he was with saw. him get hit by a beam of light. They. freaked out, took off. They they were. driving away and they were like, "We got. to go back and get him. We got to go.

back and get him." They turned around, went back and got him. tried to get him. He was gone. The craft was gone and uh. he uh disappeared for five days and then. turned up and had this insane story. >> Yeah. And then he's taken uh those tests. like uh. >> polygraph test. >> Yeah. Polygraph tests like every year or. something like that or he takes them. regularly and he always passes them. >> Well, so did the people that were with. him. >> Yeah. Yeah. And they and I've seen. people uh interview the people that were.

with him even just recently and they're. like, "Well, whatever." Regardless of. what I think about Travis as a person, yeah, that happened. >> Yeah. One of the guys actually got in a. fist fight with him the day of the. abduction. >> The guy did not like him. Like they. hated each other. And then, you know, they were young guys. And then he had to. testify and he was like, "It happened.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whatever it was. So yeah, I believe him. and his his interpretation has changed a. lot too through the years in not the the.

facts the facts are all the same but his. interpretation of them like you know. were they because he thought they were. pretty malign like bad right he didn't. enjoy being abducted let's put it that. way. >> um but then over the years he said well. maybe something spiritual happened but I. don't know where he's at right now I. haven't seen a recent interview. >> there's an interesting one that's out. now with him and Bob Lazar sitting. across from each other. >> wow Yeah. In a diner. It's very weird. And they're sitting there eating pie.

talking about, you know, what they think. this whole thing is. >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat]. >> So, what's new in the the world of all. this? >> Well, a lot. Right. So, the government. has been releasing UFO files since May. 2026. And this is something that a lot. of people think is really important and. you know it's a form of disclosure. Uh. they're pushing the group that is.

pushing this and happy that this is. happening. They're also wanting the. president to come out and say yeah we. there are these things. Um I saw JD. Vance on your show the other day that. was really interesting. He's of course I. I was interested in what he had to say. you kind of pushed back on his what he. was talking about in terms of calling I. don't want to use that word the dword. right. >> demons why don't you want to use that. word. >> because I must take this opportunity now. to say that I am speaking on your.

podcast as a private individual and I. don't represent my university talking. about this okay [laughter]. >> so I mean seriously look what happened. to him so he basically you know was. honest and said yeah I think that these. are you know demons Well, you know, that. was the headline, Joe, but when you. actually listen to what he had to say, it was more complicated. And so, I. thought that uh he did a good job of of. uh talking about it with you. And and if. you want, we can talk about that, why he.

would think that. He is Catholic. Um I'm. Catholic. I do history of Catholicism is. part of what I do. Um by the way, I'm a. professor of religious studies at uh. university. So, uh yeah. So, I've been. like looking at that. I've been doing. Catholic history my whole life. So I. started doing looking into UFO. experiences in 2012. and um yeah so lost is new are lots of. stuff is new. Okay. >> I didn't think that he had a very. satisfying explanation as to why he.

would say I think they are demons. >> Yeah I can fill that out. >> Okay. >> Okay. Or fill that in. Um all right. So. he's coming from the perspective of. Catholic theology. So in Catholic. theology there are generally if you're. looking at anomalous phenomena which. they do supernatural anomalous phenomena. a lot of weird stuff happens within the. history of religions. Okay. So they have. categories for understanding this stuff. and the categories include three.

different um categories basically three. different types of things. Supernatural. things which they think can't be. explained and that they're like. miracles. um you know someone terminally. ill prays for a saint intercession and. then they become healed and doctors say. we can't figure that out. That's. supernatural. That's a miracle from God. Okay. Uh that's one category. The other. category is the natural. So things that. are within nature, we can explain them.

You know, everybody's knows what a. natural kind of event is. Hurricanes and. things like that. Um, but there's an. there are events that cannot be. explained but don't merit supernatural, the supernatural category. And those. events can, by the way, there's a word. for it and they call it the pternatural. Okay, the pternatural. And this has been. a category that Catholics have had since. at least the medieval time period. And. because they're trying to figure out, you know, if let's just talk about UFOs.

If UFOs are here now, most likely. they've been around for a long time. And. so whatever Cassix were seeing in the. medieval time period, they were they had. categories for trying to understand it. just like we're trying to have too. And. so they're they say uh the theologians. at the time said like Aquinas, Thomas. Aquinas, he said okay the pre-ternatural. these are events that happen and they're. either angelic like you know good things. like that or demonic which are fallen. angels or other things because God has.

created other things other than you know. he's created the unseen and the seen. some things that we can't see. So in the. pre-ternatural, there happens to be. experiences that people have with things. that seem to be similar to what people. talk about when they're talking about. being abducted by UFOs. Um beings that. that appear and disappear. Uh beings. that can seemingly read your mind. So.

this would be the theological category. that Catholics have called the. prednatural. And I think that's what uh. JD Vance was trying to get at. But why. would you call that a demon? >> Okay, so this is a good question and. that's where I'm going to kind of like. help. >> push back on you and then you could push. back on me again. All right, [laughter]. so the the the fact is is that we don't. know. Okay, we don't know. So there's. analogous experiences that people have. Now that I've been doing this since. 2012, a long time, uh, it is beyond a.

doubt that there's a pattern match. between people who have these. experiences and people who have demonic. experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't. prove that they're identical. >> When you say pattern match, what do you. mean? >> Yeah. So, I'm talking about what people. actually experience. So, when people. have these experiences, what happens to. them? They report things like things. appearing and disappearing, luminous. lights, okay, light showing up, aerial.

phenomena. They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their. minds. They also report that sometimes. they feel like these beings put thoughts. in their minds. Okay, these are all. things that Catholics who know the. history would say, "Wow, that sounds. like this kind of situation." Um, does. that mean it is that situation? There's. no No, we can't say that it is. And. that's where your point is relevant. Your point is that how do we know that. they're demons? We don't know that.

they're demons. But it warrants an. investigation, I think, into the. similarities. >> Okay. But when you think about demons, most people think about evil. They think. about something that does horrible. things to you. possession, you know, something that causes you to murder. people or something that wants to murder. you or something wants to steal your. soul. That doesn't seem at all like what. we're talking about with these UFO.

experiences. What it seems like is. you're encountering something that has a. superior intelligence of superior. technology, something that's very. different that communicates. telepathically, but they don't seem to. have vicious intentions. So, I don't. understand the distinction. I understand. why you would call that a demon unless. you're just using that in this old. school term because the people that were. experiencing this supposedly. or assumably when we're talking about.

ancient times and they didn't have words. for it and they didn't know what they. were experiencing, they would call that. a demon. >> Yeah. Okay. So, this is a really good. comment and this is something that I'd. agree with you like in before 2016. I'd. say, "Yeah, you're right. >> What changed?". >> Okay, that I did a lot of research and. um and what I found was that. let's take an example because examples. are good. Uh Skinwalker Ranch. So, there.

are a lot of people who are associated. with. looking into UFOs who are well known to. UFO people um who work at Skinwalker. Ranch. Okay. So, I learned about. Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013. or so, and I learned it from about it. from Gary, Gary Nolan. Um, all right. So, he said he was talking to me about. it. He said, "Yeah, a lot of my friends. are working out there, and they want me. to go out there and do some study of.

what's going on. There's anomalous. phenomena. Um, it they think it's. associated with UFOs because UFOs show. up and this and that." And I said, "Oh, are you going to go out there?" And he. said, "No, I'm not going out there." And. so I I was like,"Well, okay, why?" And. he said, 'Because it's really negative, the things that happen to people, they. they get something called the hitchhiker. effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is. when this scary stuff that's associated. with like a haunted place uh follows you.

home, >> right? I've heard of that before. >> Yeah, the the hitchhiker effect. Um I. think it's called the hitchhiker. syndrome or something. And so I met a. lot of people who had this happen to. them who had had UFO experiences. So I. would say that no, not all UFO. experiences are like that. But enough of. them are like that for me not to ever. have one. and also to associate the. pre-ternatural. That's what I started to. understand that well the pre-ternatural. is still the best category that we have.

for looking at this because not all. pre-ternatural phenomena even for. Catholics is negative right some of it's. actually really positive but the thing. the problem is is that human beings have. a hard time fig figuring out like you. know it could be deceptive this is. another thing where Gary Nolan comes in. um he was on Tucker Carlson I don't know. like four years ago or something And um. he said, and I've talked to him about. this too. Tucker asked him about,"Well,

what do these things, you know, what do. they say?" And he goes, "Oh, they lie. They they're deceptive. They, you know,". and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in. the race in terms of religion. Like he's. not, you know, affiliated with any. religion. So, you know, >> when he said they lie, like what. specific examples does he have of them. lying? >> Okay. So listen when we start to look at. this type of situation with you know. these experiences and so forth what a. Catholic would do like what a what a. Catholic priest say would do would be to.

identify if there if there's deceit. happening to identify if there are. negative effects and you know because. there's criteria for looking at the. pre-ternatural and so a lot of things. that happen are when you have um you. know these abductions. Um, which some people view as positive, but. some people don't. They don't like these. abductions. Um, so yeah, they'll say. things that aren't true. And.

>> what. >> um I don't know. They'll say like, okay, I'll take I'll take an example. I'm not. going to out any experiences that I. know, but I I know a lot. [laughter] So, at this point, I've had like I don't. know about a thousand people talk to me. about their experiences. So one in. particular regularly gets prophetic. messages. Some of which come true, most. of which are not true. Okay, that means.

when when you have one or two prophetic. messages given to you by an anomalous, you know, being or whatnot and it comes. true, you're willing maybe to believe. it, right? Oh, this is, you know, telling this is telling me good. information. Um but. then they start not to come true and. then if that person makes this public uh. that person then is you know people. associate them with falsehood and deceit. and that's not a positive thing.

>> Okay. But have you taken into. consideration that that this person. might be mentally ill? >> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. >> This this idea that they're getting all. of these. like whatever it is visions. I mean, how. are they receiving this information? Are. they receiving it telepathically? Like when you say prophetic? >> Yeah. Yeah. So the So there are. different So you ask me what kinds of. people like what they would say, right? When. >> Well, if the if these things are.

deceiving them, so they have these. prophetic visions, right? How is how are. these visions. manifesting themselves in their mind? Yeah. >> Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing. an event happen? >> Okay. So. there are uh there are a variety of ways. in which people receive this type of. information like prophetic information. Um I would say that some people actually. see things and the beings like impart. telepathically like mind-to- mind.

transmission something this is going to. happen [clears throat] and then they. believe it. Okay, this happens within. like angel events like Marian. apparitions. happens to, you know, people. It happens to people in. abductions as well. And, you know, I I. mean, that's what happens to them. They. see things. They sometimes have visions. in their dreams. So, there's there are a. variety of ways that people. >> Let's stop right there. Visions in their. dreams could also just be dreams. Like,

how can they make a distinction between. just dreams like, "Oh, Godzilla was. chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran. into my cousin. We hid in his basement.". and then I woke up. Like that's just a. dream. That's not a prophecy. And if. they're having those dreams as well as. these. visionary dreams that they think are. inspired by. >> some entity, >> how are they making the distinction. between the two of them if both of them. exist at the same time in the same. person's mind? >> Yeah. Yeah. So within the culture of.

within our culture, we tend to put. dreams in the same category. We say the. dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same, right? They're. either bad dreams or good dreams are. neutral. Um, within there are other. cultures that distinguish different. types of dreams. And within the western. culture, there have been times when. people have distinguished different. types of dreams. Like say you take the. Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have. Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's. going to be big uh he's a prophet and he.

has dreams where he's able to uh tell. the future and he's able to distinguish. between those dreams. So within certain. cultures even cultures today like. different religious cultures they have. distinctions uh the martu in Australia. uh they have you know they they talk. about the dream time. So, we're kind of. a culture that puts all dreams in the. same category. And granted, that's true. Uh, in terms of discussing whether or.

not people are mentally ill, Travis. Walton's not mentally ill, >> right? But Travis Walton is not having. prophecies. >> No, I know, but he's he's one that. doesn't. And there are others who do. >> I understand. But we got to this place. because you were talking about beings. that deceive. >> Yes. So, I'm saying that not all of them. deceive. But I'm saying that I'm trying. to explain. >> I'm trying to ask you. Yes. >> How are they deceiving? >> Well, I just told you. So, they'll be. giving people information about the.

future. Some of which is correct and. some of which is not. >> Okay. So, how are they giving them this. information? They giving it to them. telepathically or is it coming to them. in a vision in a dream? >> It's two very different things, right? >> Yeah. But that it could be both. depending on the instance, >> right? But if it's in a dream, how do. they know it's coming from this entity. and not just a dream? That's my point. like saying they're being deceived. >> Well, a lot of them won't make that. distinction. And so that's where you. need a. >> the abductees. >> Yeah. >> Won't make that distinction.

>> because they've never had this happen to. them before. So, of course, they're. going to think this is true. But my. position is that be careful because we. don't know if it's true or if it's not, >> right? But I mean, how are you making. the distinction between what is just. their imagination and them being. deceived? This episode is brought to you. by Blue Chew. I'm sure you've heard of. Blue Chew by now, but let me tell you. what they've been up to. They've been on. a mission to get you bricked up for. years, and now the number one brand for.

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now. Buy two months of Blue Chew Gold. and get the third free with my code. Rogan. You'll also receive free. overnight shipping. Visit bluechw.com. for more details and important safety. information. This ad and the products. being advertised are intended for a. United States audience. >> Right? That's the good question. I don't. know. >> So, how is Gary Nolan saying they lie? >> Well, he's taking data and he's saying. that they're saying this, you know,

they're telling these people this. information and it's wrong information. And so, he's not making, you know, he's. not trying to make a big claim. He's. just basically saying, you know, Tucker. asks him why, you know, what kind of. things are they saying? And he said, well, they're being deceived, right? They say deceitful things. And my point. that, by the way, getting back to the. original, >> but it would be it's very frustrating. Go ahead. >> No, no, I know you're frustrated, but. the original question here is what is JD.

Vance talking about when he's saying. these are demons? And I'm trying to. explain that he's referencing this. theological category that has been. around for a long time. And that is. actually quite useful in adjudicating. what's going on when people are having. these experiences. Now, I'm saying that. I'm not trying to propose that these are. like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't. want them to happen to me and I don't. wish them upon anyone. But some people. >> You wouldn't want to meet an alien.

Not the aliens that people seem to be. meeting. So, >> which one would you like to meet? >> Well, I don't know. I mean, hypothetically, like, I'm not sure. >> I like to put it out there. I'm down. If. they want to meet me, I'm down. >> Okay. >> I'd love to meet one. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not. scared. >> They don't seem to steal you. They don't. take you away and never bring you back. They just they just interact with you. I'm down with that. I mean, we have to. distinguish between Yeah, go for it.

Meet an alien. >> You don't want that. You wouldn't want. that. >> Look, if. >> you are a person who writes books about. aliens. >> Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat. about aliens. I write about the religion. about aliens. >> Yes. But a lot of the subject matter has. to do with extraterrestrial intelligence. >> or whatever it is. >> Yeah. We don't know what it is. >> It might not be extraterrestrial. It. might be dimensional, right? Yeah. Or it. might be here, something that's of a.

superior intellect that's been here all. along. >> And it might be something within the. category of the pre-ternatural. >> Right. >> Yeah. So my point is that if it is if it. whatever it is, I you're right. I've. been studying it and I can say that if. those are the aliens, no, I don't want. to meet them. If the if they're the ones. that like people have come and told me. about and said, I wish this never. happened to me. um you know then no I. don't want to meet the. >> right but that's it's different people.

right and different people have. different tolerances for experiences and. when someone says I wish this didn't. happen to me it's because they can't. handle it and whereas other people might. be able to handle it. >> um maybe but like look at the things. that the fighter pilots like uh David. Fraver and um. >> they don't seem to have a problem with. it like they they're they're not saying. I wish this never happened to me. No, but they are saying that this looks. pretty dangerous. I wouldn't want it to. First, I I hope that this does this.

isn't an enemy technology. They're like, if that's our if our enemies have this. technology, >> it's done. >> It's game over. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's. >> scary. Um and if it's not, then it's. definitely um something that we should. take notice of, right? So if there that. that's what's in our skies and there. have been reports of people there is an. Australian report of pilots who have. passed away because of this type of. thing like they died and so forth. So. how so um I can't actually remember what.

it is but it's a it's a report of an. Australian uh young guy who was who. encountered something in the sky and um. he was never found again. And he was. just, you know, what happened? I don't. know. Uh, and. >> he he disappeared in the sky. >> Yeah. And there are. >> with the jet. >> I don't know if he disappeared with the. jet. >> I wish you knew more about this story. >> I know. I know. [laughter] Maybe someone. could get it up for us and we can look.

at it. But it's a really famous It's a. really key. Yeah, it's a really famous. Australian report. >> Here it is. Uh, it's 1978. 20-year-old. Australian pilot Frederick Valentique. >> I think it's Valentic. Valentic took off. on a routine training flight over Bass. Strait. Everything seemed normal until. his radio transmissions began. Valentique reported a strange aircraft. hovering above him with four bright. lights and metallic surfaces moving at. impossible speeds. Then came his final. chilling words. It's not an aircraft.

After that, he vanished completely. His. Cessna was never found despite extensive. searches and no trace of him was ever. recovered. Radar had detected another. object in the area but never interacted. with other flights. To this day, no one. knows if Valente crashed, got lost, or. encountered something far more. mysterious. Even decades later, this. remains one of aviation's most baffling. disappearances, and the last words of a. terrified pilot still haunt those who. hear them. So, there's one guy. >> I don't know. You can go meet that one,

Joe. And you know what? I think that. >> maybe he's like in a cool place right. now. >> All right. just chilling, having a good. time in another dimension, hanging out. with these creatures and they're. explaining to him the future of the. universe. >> But you know that the thing about what I. do is I'm I have a lot of information. that people impart to me that is that I. can't actually talk about, right? And. that sadly that happens to people in. >> because they ask you not to. >> Yeah. They say I need help with this or.

this is my experience and I don't want. it public and so forth. I mean, um, >> even without disclosing their name. >> No, no, they I know who they are. And so. I've had people who are pilots, uh, talk. to me. Is this, by the way, coffee? >> This is ice cold coffee. >> How's it cold? >> What? >> It's ice cold. >> I boiled it twice. >> This coffee. >> I'll try to make it again. >> I mean, I made it today. It's I made I. boiled the. >> ice cold. >> That's crazy. >> It's literally ice cold. That's weird. >> I'll make it. >> Are you sure? >> Yeah. I I hit the button twice. I I. >> It definitely degrees.

>> It binged and everything. >> Must must be broken. I mean, it's crazy. cold. It's like cold water. >> I'll start it over. Be right back. How. >> weird. But here, I got more information. Oh, [laughter] couple more descriptions. from that. >> Maybe it's aliens. They're deceiving us. They with Jaime's cold water. Um. 7:06 p.m. Valentique contacted the. Melbourne air traffic controller Steve. Roby reporting an unidentified aircraft. trailing him at about 4,500 ft. Over the. next several minutes, he described a. long shiny metallic object with a green.

light. The craft appeared to be orbiting. above him. It was moving at high speed. and playing some sort of game in quotes. His engine became rough idling and. coughing. His final words, "That strange. aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.". The transmission ended with 17 seconds. of metallic scraping or keying sounds, then silence. >> So, yeah. So this isn't um. [clears throat]. so pilots and families of pilots have.

told me things similar to this. Not as. dramatic maybe. >> Can you get another cup too? I poured. cold coffee in this. >> So um similar. And so I guess I just you. know it looks pretty grim. >> That guy that one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there are other. >> that's like the movie Close Encounters. of the Third Kind. I've always wondered. like how much of that movie was there's. so much of that that was based on. previous UFO encounters and and even.

figures like Jack Valet. Jacqu Valet. plays an the French. >> scientist in that movie is based on. Jacqu Valet. >> Yes. >> And so and there's scenes where these. pilots show up that from like World War. I, you know, and they've been gone. forever and now they're back and they. haven't lost any time. I've always. wondered like how much of this is based. on stories and reports and folklore or. whatever the government knew.

>> Yeah, I think that it's it's based on. stories and things that they like. Jacques has heard and so forth. And by. the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive. too. So his you know his idea he spent. of course his whole life studying this. and he wrote a book called Messengers of. Deception. >> Yeah, I think I read that one. >> Yeah. So, you know, once you do. >> I read a bunch of his books. >> John Keel John Keel doesn't have a good. idea about these things at all. Um, thinks they're pretty nasty. Doesn't.

want them in, you know, the Moth Man. Prophecy. >> Yeah. So, he wrote that and that movie. is based on his life. Um, and he's he's. down on it. He's a doomer with respect. to aliens. >> How so? What is his perspective? >> Okay. I'm going to give it to you right. now. All right. >> Okay. Okay, give everything right now. >> All right, so he calls this it reminds. me of Catholicism in the sense that he. has a category for it. It's called the. sup uh basically the super spectrum.

Okay. And it's it's here with us now. Just like you said, it's it's around us, but you and I can't see it. But some. people do see it and some people. interact with it and have like it breaks. into their reality. And for those. people, he thinks that they're unlucky. because all the things that happen to. them like men in black show up. Um he. thinks things like the the beginning of. all religions is basically about someone. who had an interface with a parab being. like one of these uh parahumans in the.

super spectrum. So it's kind of like an. invisible reality all around us. according to John Ke. Uh John Keiel was. a pal of of Jacques Valet's uh he's. passed away but his books are really. amazing and if you want to get an idea. about the super spectrum and the. phenomena you should watch that movie of. his called Moth Man Prophecies. It's. it's really good. >> And so this super spectrum Yeah. >> like what what does he think that is? >> So he he thinks that it's a it's a like.

a space all around us. It's been here. forever. It controls us. It controls. humanity because it sends things like he. thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks. the Virgin Mary apparitions are part of. it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So. any kind of woo thing um is there in the. super spectrum. And sometimes some. people have the ability to see what's in. the super spectrum and they're he thinks.

they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are. part of the super spectrum. So he. doesn't make any kind of distinction. between the good things in it and the. bad things. He said they're all bad. If. there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad. So again, he started, you know, he was kind of like a a. Charles Forte guy. So he started to get. a lot of these in, you know, these um. events and you study them and everything. like that. And uh over years he. developed a a theory that these were. nasty things and that they were like.

even if they appeared good and that they. they be they were at the beginning of. all religions. All religions come from. the super spectrum. Um obviously not. that part about how it's like. Catholicism but you know religions tend. to have theological categories that talk. about things like the super spectrum. So. what Jacques talks about in his books is. it sounds very similar to you know his. control mechanism and uh is very similar. to John Ke's idea. >> Well it seems like.

just speculating but it seems like we're. dealing with a very limited framework. that we operate in that we as human. beings operate Do you want to take this. Jamie? Do you need this? >> Okay. um that we operate. in this world of the senses that we. possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all. that, you know, smell. We we have these. senses for understanding what's around. us, but only those. And it's not capable.

of detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic. particles to whatever the it is. that we haven't even discovered yet. that's all around us all the time. And. so if there is. the potential for other realms or other. dimensions and these things exist in. some sort of a space where they can. interact and and. traverse in between these dimensions and.

interact with with us at will whenever. we can. We're kind of left in this. speculation space where when people have. these very novel and unique experiences. like Travis Walton and then we are. supposed to go, okay, did that happen? It didn't happen to me, but is he. telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If. he is, well, let's see if he lies about. other things. Well, he doesn't seem to. lie. He's been around a long time. Travis had been around for a long time.

telling that story. Like almost 50 years. now, right? Like when was his. experience? >> I thought it Yeah. 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um you would think he would have a few. other fibs. >> I agree. I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah. >> If it was a lie, and I don't think it. is, but if it was, that's a big lie to. have only one. Yeah. >> Only one crazy cockamy lie from 1970. whatever it was. See, you're what you're doing is you're.

this is part of their criteria for. assessing these kinds of events. Okay? It's called, you know, taking time, >> right? >> So over time, so when a when an. anomalous event happens within like say. Christian culture or whatnot. >> Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate. it. >> The cold was all right, but it's like. it's it's crazy. It's nice cold. >> That is weird. Yeah, >> dude. Something's going on. Put your. finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's. cold like cold water.

>> I understand. I know. I know what. happened. >> Oh, do you? >> Yeah. >> What happened? >> You have to hit the start button to make. it boil. >> I didn't hit the start button. >> Oh, user [laughter] error. >> But it beeped. I thought you. >> That did. That did beep because it. didn't It was turning off. >> Okay. This is hot. Here we go. [clears throat]. >> My bad. Quiet as the French press. Where were. we? Um. >> uh the categories. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. You were basically just.

making a movement. A strategy. Uh yeah, sure. Thank you. >> Yeah. Like looking at some like I mean. that's my perspective on Bob Lazar. >> You know Bob Lazar has been telling the. exact same story forever. I've had many. conversations with Bob. I've had dinner. with him. I've hung out with him a few. times. Dinner with him several times. Hung out with him in the studio. He. showed us uh that most recent. documentary before it was released with. uh Luigi, the guy who made it with him.

I don't, you know, I I know a lot of. people that are full of I meet a. lot of people that are full of. I've had people sit here in front of me. and then somewhere in the conversation. I'm like, "Oh, this person's not being. honest. This is this is some they've got. an agenda. They're pushing some or. they're pretending they know some things. because it sounds good, but they don't. really know some things." I get real. suspicious of people. I'm not suspicious. of him. It's weird. You know, he's he's. obviously incredibly intelligent and. very wellstudied when it comes to.

science, when it comes to um you know, whatever it is, whether it's um. elements, particles, when you know, he. he he understands what he's talking. about in a very deep way. And when he's. explaining these experiences, when he. talks about this craft and his. experiences at S4, he seems to be. telling the truth. And then since then, we we know first of all that no one knew. about S4 back then, but he did. He knew.

where it was. He knew exactly where it. was. And he knew about the flights that. take people out there. He he had a a. total understanding of uh Los Alamos. Labs. I mean, he he went there. He knew. the people that worked there. He knew. how to get around the building. When. George Knapp took him there, he he knew. everything about the facility. Yet, they. claimed that he never worked there. And. then they found him on the employee. roster. >> So, he did work there. So, they they. lied and they tried to cover up. Why.

would they lie and say that he didn't. work there? >> Yeah. >> Well, probably because he was involved. in some that they wanted to keep. secret. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. >> There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob. Lazar story. And then when you see some. of the footage that was released. particularly after the New York Times. story of 2017, >> the footage that's released mirrors the. way he describes this craft operating. >> Yeah. >> And so how would he he guessed correctly.

in 1989? >> Those are all good points. So yeah, I. told you last time I was on here that. Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book. um told me he that he was the real deal. Even though I had people who, you know, Eric Davis and you know, telling me, "No, Diana, this guy's No, no, I believe. Tyler. So everything that you say I. agree with. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, >> you're always going to have people when. you have a fantastic story like Bob. Lazar story, you're always going to have. people that want to say that the guy's.

full of that there's something. wrong, he's lying, this is not true, it's fake. >> But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person. who might know, right? >> So, he's a physicist who studies this. and even briefs Congress on. But, no, so. I don't know. I I tend to when Tyler. tells me things and now that he's. everything he said kind of has come. true, I believe him, you know, I believe. that is true. >> But if Bob Bazar is telling the truth,

it's so disturbing the idea that there's. a group of humans that operate in our. government that have information that. the general public does not have and. that they're the gatekeepers of this. information. and they've determined for. whatever reason that either it's not. wise to tell people or it wouldn't. benefit them to tell people. Like. whatever it is, I think it's a crime. against humanity. I I think if you're a. person that knows for a fact that.

there's something here other than us. that either visits us or exists amongst. us or travels here from another. dimension, I think you have an. obligation to tell people. >> But what if it's not that? What if it's. actually something we've created and we. don't want anybody to know about it and. Lazar happened to find out and that's. why we don't want you know I mean think. about it from the perspective of people. who are trying to keep Americans safe. So just to push back a bit. >> okay go ahead.

>> You know what if that's it? >> So if that's the case why would they. bring a guy in to tell them how does. this work? >> Show us how this works because that was. his job. >> Oh yeah. They brought him in and said, "Tell us how this works.". >> And like, and he was like, "What are you. talking about? This is ours. It has an. American flag sticker on it." Like, "Do. you know how it works? Why are you. asking me how it works? This seems kind. of crazy.". That's not what you do if you have.

super advanced technology. What you do. is you bring in people to improve it and. make it better. You don't bring in. people and say, "How does it work?". >> Yeah. Okay. Wait, I have a couple of. comments about that. >> Okay. >> So, when I first started, I was I was. aware that people I wasn't aware as much. as I should be, [laughter] but I was. aware that people in my position, you. know, who were basically just doing like. academic work on the UFO belief, the. rising UFO belief might have people come. and give me disinformation.

>> 100%. And I I have the same situation. >> Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be. that you're talking about discernment. like we have to be super discerning. about who's you know our BS meter has to. like be really. >> well working or working well. >> Okay. So but. >> the person who took me out to the desert. right with Gary during that time to an. alleged crash site which you know. Jacques then goes out there. Um, he. basically also wants Gary to figure out.

this debris. And so I'm thinking we. obviously don't know what we have here. If he's if it's legit, it could Okay, so. here are my comments about what you just. told me about Lazar. Either they're. setting up this situation where they're. going to have someone like me and Gary. who are like they're trying to backineer. this, right? and were saying that. publicly um without any kind of like.

knowledge that it could be disinfo and. then they have Lazar who we're going to. plant then they do this like with. benefits and stuff they plant stuff for. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know benefits um. >> the guy who uh what he had stuff planted. is in his computer. Do you not know. about him? >> No. What is this called? >> Oh, it's called Project Beta. Um this is. a this is a book a friend of mine wrote. about um I can't remember. Yeah. So, um. >> Oh, Paul Benovitz. I've heard his name. before.

>> Yeah. You should read this because this. is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who. >> So, Benovitz believed that he had. intercepted communications from alien. spacecraft and discovered a secret. underground facility called Dulce Base. Duly Dulce Base Dolce. >> Doli. Is that how you say it? >> I'd say Dolce, but. >> Dolce U base managed by aliens in. cooperation with the US government. and. his claims appeared in the popular press. in the early 1980s. According to some. sources, benefits was the target of a.

government disinformation campaign that. ultimately led to his psychiatric. hospitalization. Author Greg Valdez proposes that. benefits was targeted for his. investigation of cattle mutilations. Valdez argues the m mutilations were a. government testing program looking at. the after effects of radiation from. 1967's. project gas buggy in which an. underground atomic device was detonated. just 21 miles southwest of Doli. They. were testing the cattle to avoid.

panicking the public. >> Okay, so this um. >> the problem with that story is cattle. mutilations. still go on. This is like completely not. accurate. >> This is just a brief Wikipedia about. there's probably way more to the story. and. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know Dodie? Yeah. Dodie. You know Dodie, right? The uh. >> the guy who went they they placed. misinformation on his computer so that. he believed that he was um. >> they placed it on his computer. >> Yeah, they placed it on his computer.

Really? They went into his house when he. wasn't there and put it on there. >> And what did they put on his computer? they put on all this information about. um a like that he was in touch with. these aliens. So they they basically. cultivated his belief that he was in. touch with aliens. They did that. purposefully and Dodie um Dod's first. name. Oh gosh, I can't. >> Dodie. >> No. Um he's really famous within. Euphology because he's a misin guy. >> So, but back to. >> he's a misinfo guy purposefully.

>> Yeah. intentionally placing. misinformation out into the public about. UFOs, which is a thing. It does. >> Is he still alive? >> Yeah, he's still alive. >> And that's what he does for sure. >> Richard, he used to Yeah, Richard. Richard. Yeah, he for sure does that. >> Um, >> how do you know he does that? >> What do you mean? Everybody, >> what do you mean? What do you mean. >> that? I'm surprised you don't know that. he does that. >> I'm speaking sometimes when I talk I'm. speaking for the entire public that. probably doesn't know what we're talking. about. And I think it's probably good.

that we fill them in. >> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So, Richard. Dodie is has come out and said this is. what he does and I know people who know. him like the entire group in you know. the invisible college people with how. and they all know who he is. >> Okay. >> And uh Kit offered to introduce him to. me by the way Kate Green. So, and I and. by the way all of these people are. people who work on the used to work on. the program ATIP and so forth. >> uh to study UFOs. But my point though.

here in talking about this was what if. Lazar was a person like me and Gary who. was being given information were. credible, right? He's not so credible, but like you know he's he's this person. that's been given information and placed. out there so that and he's just on the. edge of credibility just so you know. he's credible but then he's not credible. so that he could be taken down if. necessary. That's how they get this. information out there. Now, who am I.

talking about? They So, what I'm trying. to say is that what I've observed is. that the government isn't unified in. this whole UFO thing. They're fighting. against each other. I try to stay out of. their crosshairs. Frankly, what they're. doing though is that every time somebody. comes out and says, you know, here are. the new UFO files. I'm studying them and. so forth, then they get taken out by. like counter intelligence. So it's like. intelligence and counter intelligence. So that it's really confusing. The end.

result is total confusion and you really. have to have an ability like to. understand like your discernment has to. be welldeveloped. >> Right? So I believe that I believe that. there is disinformation and deception. I. think that's a great strategy. If you. want to make something look ridiculous, you take truth and then you attach a. bunch of fantastic, ridiculous claims to. that truth. And so that it dismisses all.

of it, right? Because it's all in the. same category and it's all easily. debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy. that also said that, so this is. nonsense. Right. >> That's exactly right. Uh Tyler used to. say, we're we hide truth in a circle of. confusion. >> Yeah. which makes sense if they're trying to. >> Yeah, that's what they do, right? I. mean, I don't know anymore. Like today, like Jacques at one point, uh, many. years ago decided that the field of.

euphology was so confusing that he. wanted to go back before the industrial. revolution and do UFOs from a long time. ago. And he wrote Wonders in the Sky, >> all about that. stopped at like I think. it was like 1860 or something like that, >> right? >> And so he did that and I feel like I've. done that too. Like I started that way. actually. Um and I wasn't looking for. UFOs. So I saw you know so in a sense I. understand that move because.

>> when you say you weren't looking for. UFOs, what were you looking for? Oh, well my first the first part of my. academic career was about looking at. souls from purgatory and Catholic things. like you know what Catholics thought. about things that they experienced like. angel contact events. Um and that's when. I started to take a log of these aerial. phenomena. I did not know what they. were. And so historically you can see it. all over the place in the records that. aren't digitized. So there are a lot of.

records like people that say, "Oh, we. have, you know, AI has everything of. human all of human knowledge." No. Have. they never been to an archive? An. archive is a really old library. There's. a bunch of stuff there that's not. digitized and that's still human. knowledge. >> And so what were you looking for? >> Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my. book on purgatory. I was looking I was. trying to find out why purgatory was a. thing for Catholics for many, many. years. And then after the 1960s, people.

rarely um talked about it as much. So, by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from. people about this because Catholics who. do do devotions to souls in purgatory. for souls in purgatory will say, "No, we. still do this, Diana. I know that." But. the emphasis like Catholic churches used. to have a special place in the church. for these devotions. They we don't have. that here. And so, I wanted to know what. happened. And so what I did was I spent. 10 years going through records and.

archives all over the place. And uh and. I I found an answer to that. But I also. found a bunch of aerial phenomena that. people didn't know, you know, they were. like looking up the sky too back then. And when they saw something in the sky, they couldn't like place. Well, what is. this? They'd interpreted as like a soul. from purgatory. You know, we need to. pray that soul back into purgatory. because, you know, sometimes these. things would harass people. They'd come. down like orbs and harass people and. they just assumed it was like a bad.

spirit or something like that. >> So, I took all of this down because I. thought it was really strange and I. didn't I didn't want to put it in my. book. >> Um, but I wanted to do something with it. at some point. Uh, so when I I had not I. didn't believe in UFOs. I had never. thought about UFOs, but I showed the log. to a friend after my purgatory book was. published and he said, "Oh, this looks. like Stephen Spielberg films." And I. thought he was crazy. So that's how I. started studying UFOs. >> Oh. >> yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was.

already doing that. Jacques was one of. the first people I actually wrote a hard. letter to, sent it through the mail to. him and uh that's how I met him. >> So Jock's books, what's with what is. interesting is these old stories because. the old stories that go back to 1700s. and the 1800s, they mirror these UFO. encounters. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's what my. work did. Yeah, >> it's a very similar pattern which is. also strange because. if you think about human beings, the.

exponential increase in technological. ability that we have just from the 1800s. to today, far superior technology. But. wouldn't would you assume that UFOs. would also have this exponential. increase in their technological ability? >> Yeah, definitely. But yet the stories. seem very similar, which is weird, right? Because if it's the same kind of. craft and the same kind of experiences.

and the same kind of. >> like wouldn't they get better at it? Like isn't there don't they have the. same ability to improve? >> They might be better at it. They might. be better at it. We just are not good at. ascertaining if they have gotten better. at it. But so what if and this is kind. of what I've been exploring recently. What if the you know our growth in. technology is pretty amazing. What if. the only way they can actually interface. with us in any super meaningful way.

that's not creepy, right? What if it's. through AI? What if that so if religion. was a way for us to communicate with. non-human intelligences that kind of. evolved in different places, right? It's. like a technology itself, right? Religion becomes these ways. You know, if you look around and you see I noticed. that you had some cool Buddhist statues. out there. All right. So, if you look. around at religion, what is it that. people in religion do? A lot of them.

pray in certain ways. Well, like why are. they doing that? what is prayer anyway? Um some of the uh so you can see that. there's something that they're trying to. do. They're trying to interact contact. there's like a contact with these and so. what if AI all of a sudden is a. different form of contact. Um and I'll. give you a reason why I think this way. or that I'm speculating about it. Um. when I started to ask the people who. should know like Louzando and you know.

the and before that Tyler and you know. um how put off and uh people like that. tell me what best if you were to. describe what it is we're dealing with. what best is the description and they. would always point me in the direction. of science fiction and they would say. read this read that and I was like. science fiction okay and I'd read it and. it would inevitably point to like a. technology that helps interface humans. with it. So that it's not us interfacing.

because perhaps you remember you talked. about those faculties that you know. human beings have these faculties for. understanding reality but we can't. understand reality in its full reality. right we can't do that because we're. constrained by the ways in which we. perceive things those are the perceptual. faculties. >> um what if AI becomes a perceptual. faculty for us and we're able then to. you know interact with it so perhaps it. has has evolved and it's helped us.

evolve too. >> So that's what I'm trying to say. That. was a long answer to your to your. comment. >> So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us. interact with these things. >> communicate. >> Okay. Um so as far as what the government. knows and then deception. >> Yeah. >> Why do you think that they don't. disclose all the information?

My personal opinion. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Okay. So, this is nothing that I can. point to. Of course, I can't. You know, there's no source for it. >> Um, my personal opinion is because this. is uh above government. It's not theirs. to disclose. The government can't. disclose something that's not theirs to. disclose. >> And what what do you mean by that? Um, I. mean that there's probably a group of. people that um.

have this information or have parts of. the information. I don't even know if. one person has the whole story. It's. super compartmentalized. But my. intuition is that it's well, we know. that there are parts of it that are so. highly classified, right? We know that. Mhm. >> And so, um, yeah, it's like, you know, they call presidents short- timerrs and. so forth. They're they're not read in. quote unquote to the to the program,

>> right? >> So, I would What if it's like it's been. around for a long time and the people. who know about it have been around for a. long time, too? What if that's the case? So, after after I um after I published. American Cosmic in 2019, I met other. people. So, you know, I met people who. indicated to me that they just basically. wanted me to not write anything else. about this stuff. They just were like, "Why don't you just focus on what you.

you know, your your Catholic stuff and. just like don't don't do this.". >> This episode is brought to you by. Visible. It's officially summer, folks. And boy, what a summer we are having. It. feels like one of those good. oldfashioned summers where you just want. to enjoy every moment and keep up with. the action. your best companion this. summer. Visible wireless. Visible gives. you unlimited 5G data and unlimited. hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25. a month. So you can make this the summer.

of fun and savings. Visible is more than. just a wireless plan. It's unlimited. wireless designed to always keep you. connected with no contract to tie you. down. Switch today at visible.com. Plans. start at $25 a month or get our premium. Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on. your first month when you use promo code. Rogan. Terms apply. See visible.com for. plan features and network management. details. >> And who did that?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Some people that I had met. So um they they're people that are. associated with the government in the in. the fact that they're part of. intelligence communities and you know so. I was interested in what they had to say. and to me what they didn't tell me. anything Joe so I'm not going to tell. any secrets or anything that I don't. have them but um they they indicated to. me that. yeah this is this is like nobody's going.

to know about. So people like uh. yeah so that's that's what I that. happened after American Cosmic part of. that went into encounters but not. >> so they what how did they. express this to you that they don't. think that you should be talking about. this? >> Well they they didn't express it that. way. They just said that my time would. be better spent looking into other. aspects of uh religion. Did you say why?

>> Of course. I wanted to know. >> And what did they say to that? >> Well, they didn't really say they didn't. really answer that question, but I guess. you could say that my experience with. them was my answer. My experience with. them was that. um. this was something that people weren't. going to know about and that these. secrets wouldn't be told. So you like. they're essentially saying to you,

you're wasting your time. >> pretty much. Yeah. >> We're not going to tell anybody. You're. not going to get any more information. What's out there is out there and that's. it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> H what's your opinion like when you know. one of the things I'm I assume you saw. the age of disclosure the documentary. >> Yeah, definitely. One of the things that. I thought was really uh interesting and. made sense in the age of disclosure was. this thought that if there are these.

hidden programs. they uh have essentially misappropriated. funds and lied to Congress in order to. fund these things and all these things. are huge crimes and if they don't have. amnesty they're never going to disclose. This is like Lou Alzando talked about or. all these different people talked about. this like the only way you're ever going. to get this information is by.

giving some sort of mass amnesty to all. these people that are involved in these. programs so that they never have to. worry about being prosecuted. My problem. with that is when I hear something like. that and you're talking about. misappropriation of funds, you're. talking about lying to Congress, you're. talking about enormous amounts of money. that are involved in these programs. Where did that money go? And did that. money all go to those programs or all. those really ethical people involved? Or. did a bunch of people get rich. bullshitting about this stuff? And is. that why they're calling for amnesty so.

that they don't have to worry about. being prosecuted for stealing money? And. that's a lot of this, you know, obfuscating, a lot of this confusion, a. lot of this misinformation is because. there's a lot of people that are in deep. if this gets disclosed. So basically they're in deep if. they if the thing that gets disclosed is. that they've been stealing money. >> Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete. total autonomy, you you get an enormous.

amount of money and you're working on. these programs, you you know, no one. knows where this money is going. And we. have a problem with that already, right? Like we have a problem with the Pentagon. never passes budgets. Where' the money. go? You know, that's like part of the issue. What is this, Jamie? >> Uh, long hidden UFO information at the. center of Trump push uh to free former. officials. Former employees can now.

share information. >> with Arrow or the Purse Task Force. without fear of violating agreements. So, this is new. >> Yes, last week. >> Oh, interesting. So, no one's officially. come forward as far as. >> Okay, that's but look how it says that. there. Scroll back up. It says without. violating agreements. That's not the. same thing I'm talking about. >> It's not exactly, but this they have. NDAs and it's uh. >> right. That's another issue. But what. that doesn't it doesn't exonerate them.

from lying to Congress or. misappropriating misappropriating funds. That's part of the problem is that if. they have these. programs that are hidden and there's no. congressional oversight, there's no they. don't have to be audited. If. in all these in any government program. that has no oversight, you're going to. have waste and you're probably going to. have fraud and you're probably going to. have a bunch of people that are, you.

know, essentially beyond reproach. They. have so much power and no oversight at. all. Like, put a little bit over here, put a little bit over there, a little. bit of this, a little bit of that. Next. thing you know, these people are wealthy. for some reason that you can't explain. Like, look what's going on with. Congress, with insider trading or people. that are making $170,000 a year worth. hundreds of millions of dollars, and no. one can explain why. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got you have to imagine. that these people would also be tempted.

to do that if they were involved in. these programs. So even if these. programs are real, let's say it, let's. say the research, the back engineering. research costs a billion dollars. Let's. make it say it cost three billion. Where's that money going? Where's it all. going? Where'd it go? >> You know, that's part of the problem. with having no oversight. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No auditing, no oversight, and a bunch. of people that have. >> complete ability to hide anything. they're doing,

>> including. >> what they do with the money. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so if they've been doing that for. decades, who knows how much fraud is involved. >> Yeah. You have to assume like these are. human beings and human beings if they. have that level of power. >> and that level of secrecy. >> and no oversight at all. And also they're working with defense. contractors. They're working like you.

know. >> overse offshore accounts. There's a lot. of weird goes on. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It could. be that. Do you think it is? >> Yes. >> Really? >> Yes. >> You think I think that's a factor? >> Okay. Hey. All right. >> I think that's a major factor in this. whole thing. >> All right. So, >> I think that's the that's the I think. that is probably the reason why you have. these calls for amnesty. because if you if you're talking about. amnesty like amnesty for what you guys. do something, what' you do?

Misappropriation of funds, lying to. Congress. Okay. So, you you don't want. to be in trouble for misappropriating. money and you don't want to be in. trouble for lying to Congress. What if. that does that include all the fraud. that potentially could have taken place? >> And I'm not accusing anyone of fraud. I. don't I don't know anything. This is. pure tinfoil hat. Let's just talk. That's all this is. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you think it's just. basically a big like almost like a Ponzi. scheme. >> I think that has to be an aspect of it. because that's an aspect of it in almost. all aspects of government.

>> I hear what you're saying. I guess uh. >> just think of the problem that was. exposed with Doge. >> with the NOS's where you find out that. there's literally billions of dollars. gets distributed and there's no record. of it. There's no receipts. >> The bottom of that article here, >> uh during the same event, former Air. Force intelligence officer Grush renewed. his allegations that the secret UAP. programs had operated outside normal. congressional oversight, calling it a. real fraud, waste, and abuse issue.

There it is. and claiming his. investigation uncovered slush funds to. the tune of billions of dollars perom. for these activities. The Pentagon has. disputed Gush's central claims and Arrow. has said its investigations found no. evidence, no verified evidence of. extraterrestrial technology or credible. evidence that the government has. secretly recovered or reverse engineered. craft of nonhuman origin. But yet there. he has talked about programs that he has.

been read in on that are back. engineering programs. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. So like is it is it. slush fun? Yeah. To call it a slush fund. I think is really an interesting you. know term because that indicates that. that they're not doing anything right. >> Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate. that they are doing something, but. they're also profiting wildly off of. this something that they're doing. because they don't have any oversight, right? Which is when you get creepy. people that have incredible power like.

that. That's just normal. Absolute power. corrupts. Absolutely. What's more. absolute power than you're. >> You have massive amounts of money, a. blank check, and. >> you're also you're in the super. secret top secret group. Yeah, >> you're in the club of the people that. know the wink and the nod and you you're. going into these vaults in the. middle of the mountain and you're. looking at an alien spacecraft and. you've got bodies that are in. formaldahhide or whatever the. they're doing with them. You know, you.

would think those guys could do whatever. the they want. >> Yeah, that's right. >> They're humans. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And they're men. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> They're men that are probably very. ambitious and wealthy. >> Yeah. Yeah. and they want to be more. wealthy and they got all this money. coming in and they're working on these. programs and then they can occasionally. show you some stuff. Look, this is what. we've discovered. This is what we've. figured out. This is what we can apply. to military technology. >> Okay, so maybe Okay, so maybe that's it.

>> Pure speculation, right? No accusations. I'm just saying if you had to look at it. from the least charitable perspective, you have to say that's probably an. aspect of what we're dealing with. And. that seemed to me when I watched Age of. Disclosure from a cynical perspective, I'm like, what is this? What is this. request for amnesty? What's what's the. Amnesty is a weird thing to say, you. know, like if you're People get. suspicious when you have amnesty? >> Mhm. >> Why do you want amnesty?

>> Yeah. >> You're worried about like, are they. really going to prosecute people that. have misappropriated funds and lied to. Congress because they have alien. spacecrafts? Is that really what Congress is going to. do now? They're going to go after these. people and say, "I look, I know you. finally did tell us that we have been. visited, that we have these down alien. crafts, but we're going to put you in. jail because you didn't tell us before. and because you lied to Congress and you. use these funds to backineer these. crafts.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Does that really make sense that they. would put these people in jail for these.

top secret government programs? >> No. No. >> Yeah, >> I agree. Um, >> I just think if you just factor in. people, >> factor in people and blank checks, >> I always say someone's get it's not like. these are the most benign altruistic. people that they like they're super. charitable and they only want to do the. right thing for humanity and they're. they're very comfortable with their. meager government salary. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Probably not. Right. >> Right. probably when you think about. human nature and people when they have. access to money especially that kind of. money that's crazy money. >> all right so if I can offer my like. speculation totally speculative. >> totally okay. >> I like I like this kind of talk. >> okay okay so remember that I start out. not caring about UFOs at all not. believing nothing like that right. >> just kind of doing my boring Catholic. scholarship stuff right boring well yeah.

I didn't think so but you know geeky. stuff Right. Right. >> Okay. Not interested in that scene. All of a sudden become realize that. there's this historical continuity, right, in the records. >> and there's physical evidence. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's physical evidence. >> which is important for people to know. that maybe if they've never heard this. subject before and this is the first. podcast they've listened to. When we're. talking about Gary Nolan and some of the. things they've found at these crash. sites, we're talking about alloys that. you can't make here. >> Yeah. There there's something about them.

where they're layered at an atomic. level. It's there's some weird to. them. >> That's right. And so I try to keep. myself. autonomous from the euphology narrative. either proposed by the government. By. the way, a lot of people are like it's. government sponsored. There's a lot of. government sponsored stuff out there. that you're getting. None of my stuff is. government sponsored. like I did this. totally autonomously on my own. Still do.

completely, you know, I don't have a. publicist, you know, I'm not like out. there doing it like that. Um, that said, I've met a lot of people and I've seen a. lot of things now since 2012 about the. topic. >> And so, if I were to speculate about it, and let me just describe some of the. things that that come into my brain. every once in a while when I'm thinking. about it, I'm like, okay. Um, you know. how Eric Weinstein talks about like he. would know the smart people, he would. know the physicists who would be on this.

case, right? He would know these guys. because he knows physics. He's super. intelligent, >> you know? Um, >> but I don't think he does know them. And. part of the reason I say that is because. this is in 2014 or so, so a long time. ago. um when I'm you know when you're. doing something for so long and you're. in this community of people and you you. can't make stuff up like stuff happens. you were like that really happened and. one of the things that happened was that.

I got to see that there were some you. know laboratories associated with the. government that people couldn't get into. you know it was like you couldn't go to. those and the people that worked there. were the best of the best like the the. laser people the people who knew lasers. and who, you know, they were better than. anybody at Yale. They were better than. anybody at Harvard or Stanford or. anything like that. They were the best. Um, through knowing [snorts] me, Gary. got to go there. So, I have a witness,

you know, and so because they were. cultivating him. They were trying to. figure out if he could actually help. with with figuring out what this was. So, those things are things that I noted. and I, you know, kept in the my file in. my brain. Right. Okay. Well, that's. weird. Uh there uh think about people. like Harold Malgrim, right? So, you. know, he had been a um he's a person who. is uh was an official to adviser to a.

couple different presidents in the. capacity of military. So, super high. level clearance and everything like. that. He had been recruited, he was a. physicist at Cornell. He'd been. recruited when he was 27. So, this. happens. So, people do get taken into. these I don't know what you'd call them, programs or whatnot, and they do work. and they have these clearances and. they're hidden just like um they're. hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job. titles and so forth, so people wouldn't.

think. I see people online now saying, "Oh, that person doesn't have that. clearance because they had this job.". How do you know? Like, seriously, how do. you know that? because the government is. really good at hiding these kinds of. things. So over the years, that was a. long time ago when this happened to me, 2014, I started to form an idea, you. know, and it wasn't just that, it was. other types of of things that I learned. that there's something going on for. sure. And it is what they're saying, but. maybe it's not I don't know what they're.

reverse engineering, if it's anomalous, you know, from another planet or what it. is. Uh, I do know that they're they're. doing something and they've been doing. it and they're probably going to. continue to do it and that I don't think. they're going to share. >> Yeah. And why would they? Especially if. it affects national defense. >> And so part of what's happening now, you. know, with uh rich people getting into.

this and trying to get the people in the. program to come out because that's what. that looks like when David Gush talks. about that. I'm thinking they're just. trying to get these people in the. program to come out and to, you know, so. they can they can get the technology, right? And that's not I don't think. that's going to happen. I don't think. that's going to happen. >> So, what do you think happens? Do you. think that they find very talented. physicists that are in universities and. they have these outreach programs where. they look for these people that are very.

talented and they recruit them very. early on? >> I think so. I think that they get. recruited really young. Uh 27 is. probably old to get recruited. Uh. >> which probably makes sense. Get them as. early as possible before they. >> get into the program. >> before they get involved in any sort of. commercial venture or any other company. So, in um in my second book that I. written about it called Encounters, there's a chapter called the Children of. the Invisles where I talk about um this.

potential speculative group and it's. total speculation. Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on. there's a particular upstate university. uh upstate New York University that has. an completely overqualified physics. department that's also attached to a. hedge fund that does Bernie Maidoff type. numbers that don't make any sense at. all? >> No, I didn't I haven't seen that one. Yeah, it's he talks about it and this.

one particular university he is keen on. this might be something. >> because he's like it doesn't make any. sense that these insanely talented. physicists are all in this one place and. no real research comes out of it. no. real nothing gets done, but yet they're. also attached to this hedge fund that. does these insane numbers that don't. make any sense at all, which is a great. way to just funnel money through and. keep these programs running that are. completely top secret. And these people. aren't publishing. They don't have.

anything. These insanely talented. physicists are not really getting. anything done. [laughter]. >> Yeah. They get fired at my university if. they weren't publishing. >> Right. Right. There's something there's. something weird about it, he says. Yeah. >> And he keeps pointing to this one. Do. you remember that? What what they. >> Stony Brook and Renaissance Technologies. is the. >> Yes, that's it. >> He's He's like, if there's something. there, if there's a there there, that's. where it's at. >> Yeah. Which makes sense. Like if you had.

some big time program like. um I know a guy who uh was a professor. Uh so he was uh teaching at a. university. I probably shouldn't say. what he's teaching. He was also a CIA. operative. So he would literally um be. involved in gunfights and then a. week later he would be, you know, they. would extract they. take people. They they' do all this.

crazy CIA super secret operative A. week later he's teaching university. courses. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like Indiana Jones on steroids. like this guy was like really doing that. >> which is like wo okay. So if you have. this university where you have these. people that are teaching these classes. like this is and they're probably. looking for super super talented. physicists that are coming up to recruit. into these programs. But what they're.

doing as far as their, you know, air. quotes research that's public is. nonsense. And what they're what they're. really doing is working on something. probably some sort of very novel. propulsion system. >> And that's what Weinstein thinks. And he thinks that a lot of this stuff. that people are seeing in the sky is. probably ours. >> So that's right. So say it's ours and. say he's right. Okay. So, but I guess my.

point is, are you, you know, then shouldn't that. be okay? Shouldn't we be okay with that? Because isn't, aren't they, aren't we. Americans? Aren't they like helping us? >> Well, if that's the case, yes, certainly. Why would we try to get them. to come out and, you know, and like. force them out? >> Well, we certainly don't want that. information to get to China or Russia. we if there is some sort of a race to. develop a novel propulsion system like. who was it Jamie that was in here that.

was saying that one of the uses for this. technology would be instantaneous. delivery systems of nuclear weapons. So you know when we're talking about. these propulsion systems that. essentially they're folding space. folding space and time or they can. instead of going from point A to point B. which is like you know a thousand lighty. years instead of doing it in however. much time it would take to travel that. through even if you're going the speed.

of light you go instantaneously because. you're essentially folding space and. time and just appearing in this new. place. Well, you could do that with a. bomb. And so instead of like a missile. having to fly to Beijing or Moscow, it. instantaneously arrives and detonates. And that this was one of the proposed. uses of this technology, which is. terrifying. >> Yeah. >> That these knuckleheads are taking this.

incredibly potent technology that these. extraterrestrials have used to get here. from another planet. And we were like, wouldn't that be a dope way to deliver a. bomb? >> Yeah. >> And then they're working on that. >> Yeah. >> But it's also, isn't it their. responsibility to do that? Because if. China figures out how to do that or. Russia figures out how to do that or. Iran figures out how to do that, >> you've got a real problem. >> So this was what remember you asked me. those people that I met like after. American Cosmic gets published. All.

right. So this is pretty much the line. they gave me was that Diana. it's best to talk about this stuff about. morality and you know Christian stuff. and so forth because look what we're. doing is we're keeping us safe in the. United States and do you really want uh. a non-ally to have you know an enemy to. have this technology? I'm like well no. of course not you know I mean so yeah. what can you say to an argument like. that other than well yeah that would be.

terrible. Well, if I believe them and if. they're being if it's true and they're. just looking out for the interest of. America, 100% I'm with them. I get it. I. understand. I mean, I don't know. >> I know. That's the problem is I'm never. going to point fingers and go, "Fuck. those guys. They need to tell us. everything.". >> Right. >> The problem is you're telling everybody. in the world everything, then you're. telling China everything. You're telling. Russia everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> I get it. And I get that. That's why if. say the Roswell crash of 1947, if that. is legit and if they really did fly it.

out to Wright Air Force Base in, you. know, two separate planes just in case. one of them crashed, if that's really. the the case and the the the lore is. that Truman met them there and that they. disclose that they have this craft and. they have this material. You have so. many different people that were at that. crash site that have very similar. stories. >> Yeah. And then you also have this. very. shortly after that you have technologies. emerge. >> You have fiber optics, transistors, a.

lot of and weird that's attached to. them in terms of like the providence of. like how these technologies were evolved. and developed. >> There's some sketchy involved in. that. And the allegation is that this is. something that's been reverse. engineered. And then okay, well you you don't want. that getting to someone else. Yeah. >> Right. If if we are. >> involved in conflicts with other. nations, and we most certainly are, why. would you you got to keep that stuff. secret? So I get that argument as well.

And if so, if extraterrestrial. technology is real and that we do have. crafts and saying extraterrestrial is. just a placeholder word for whatever it. is, interdimensional, whatever it is, some super advanced nonhuman. intelligence created technology. If it. does exist, yeah, I would say from a. national security perspective, yeah, you've got to keep that under wraps. Especially if we don't truly understand. it. If we don't truly understand it, we're not really capable of making it.

Yeah. I mean, the way Lazar describes the. craft itself, it was like it was 3D. printed. Well, there was no 3D printing. in 1989, right? Well, there is now that. we. >> that we know of, but there is now. But. that's the thing is this that we know. of. There's only so far you can go with. that that line of thinking is when you. go back far enough it doesn't work. So.

like you go back to 1947 1947 you're. dealing with propeller planes. Okay, propeller planes and then also. novel propulsion systems that can inst. instantaneously travel from one place to. another. You know, they can go like what. happened with the Tic Tac where where. they have it on radar going from 50,000. ft down to sea level in less than a. second. >> So that's that's technology that we had.

in 2004. That doesn't seem likely, right? And it. it might be the case, but then you go. far enough back to like um. like the the what was the guy's name? Kenneth Arnold. >> Yeah. >> Th those sightings which was what 47. >> 47. Okay. Well, that's there's no way. >> like a couple months like. >> right. >> after Roswell before Roswell I can't. remember. >> So that's there's no way we didn't have.

that technology then. There's no way. they would have such superior advanced. technology that our fighter jets look. like toys. They just whiz past them. >> Well, I hear that, but but I don't know. if you've seen the images of Kenneth. Arnold's plane, but it looks like that. German fighter plane. So, it looks. exactly like that. Maybe we reverse. engineered that and had it. I don't. know. I'm just saying that. >> Kenneth Arnold's plane was only capable. of going like how fast? It wasn't that. fast. And this thing these these crafts.

were going way faster. Yeah. This is. what he said he saw. Like he's got a. propeller plane. >> I did just look up the first uh turbo. jet engine plane was 1941. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whoa. I didn't know that. Were they. using that for fighter jets back then? >> 1947 was there was them flying around. World War II. >> Uh in 47 they had fighter jets that had. um. propeller turbo jet. Yeah. But a a turbo. jet is a propeller. per uh here's the.

>> like if you fly I've flown in turbo jet. propeller planes before and they're. pretty dope. >> Those are the pictures coming up. >> Oh, okay. So, that does look like a jet. engine. >> It's definitely something different, >> right? Was that What did the planes look. like back then? So, pull up a a fighter. jet from 1947. See, those are. >> the It was a It was a specific plane. that looked exactly like what he saw. It. was a German plane. Well, that one that. Jamie just pulled up is pretty crazy.

because it's circular. >> No, I know. But the other ones looked I. mean, literally exactly. They were. called uh they uh wing planes cuz they. they looked like wings basically. >> I understand. But even that those right. there, those are still propeller planes. >> That is what Kenneth Arnold says he saw. That's totally different. Yeah. Like. whatever the that is. It's crazy. And he saw that thing skipping across. the sky. >> Okay. Wait a minute, Jamie. If you can. Keep going. So, the idea that our best.

>> it's ho something. >> Okay. The idea that our best is. propeller planes, but yet we also have. these things with no visible means of. propulsion that are all flying at 1,000. miles an hour or whatever it was. Several thousand miles an hour. >> Couldn't have been quiet either, >> right? [clears throat] Yeah. It's just. weird. It's if you go back far enough, it doesn't make sense that there's. superior technology that's not being. utilized ubiquitously across the entire. military.

>> Well, I think that most likely if they. they have something that they want. Okay. So, this is again speculation. All. right. >> Right. >> I don't know. I entertained the idea. >> This is 80 years ago. >> No, I know that I entertained the. possibility that they had some pretty. amazing stuff. >> I don't. >> Okay. I don't I just don't think that's. possible. >> I think that we still have it. And. that's what. >> maybe today I I would say in 2026, 80. years later with all the technological. advancement, maybe there's some crazy. that they have today. And I bet. there is. Look at this thing. >> This is a German bomber from.

>> That's what I'm saying. Just like that. >> All right. You got to believe that. >> But that's just You're a witness. No. No. That's an. >> That's not a Is that a photograph? >> No, they have a photograph of those. I. am not kidding. >> Stick them with your I was trying to. just start with that. No. >> Yeah. So, look at that upper left hand. corner. It says secret Nazi UFO. >> Yeah. >> But are these photographs? >> Yes, they're photograph. It could be AI, but that's. >> No, it's not. >> I'm just And I'm just to be uh. >> Okay. Well, what does it say up there? It says uh a Horton.

229. A German prototype. >> Yeah. >> Plane from 1945. >> So, so literally, See, I'm telling you, Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's uh. It does UFO. >> It really does. a jet powered flying. wingcraft. That looks that literally. looks exactly like it. >> So, if I'm right about that, then you. should like listen to my speculations, >> right? But how fast did this go? >> All right. Let's see. >> That's pretty dope. >> Could have been pushing it to the limit. >> I can't believe they had something like.

that, >> you know? >> How are the Germans so advanced? >> I know. >> And so evil at the same time. Like, what. the hell? >> Okay. Designed. Where? Where is it? >> 560 mph. >> 600 mph. >> And how fast was Ken Kenneth Arnold's. craft able to go? 621 miles an hour. >> Wow. >> So, you know, he saw these in. information. So, we were most likely. doing something with those.

>> We. >> what? United States. >> The United States. So, you think that we. had acquired that technology? >> We did. We we acquired it. We were. utilizing it. >> Right. So, Operation Paperclip, we. brought over a bunch of these Nazi. scientists. And so, you think that what. he saw was these Nazi crafts. >> Yeah. >> That they had. >> Yes, I think so. But that doesn't take. out a lot of weirdness about it because. he also had a lot of very strange. anomalous experiences, men in black. experiences, paranormal experiences.

>> Kenneth Arnold did. >> Yeah. So, and Yeah. And to to him, he. interpreted this as being religious. Is. there a video of that German thing. flying? >> I was just looking at the the first. comment says, "It should be noted this. is a full-scale mockup made for radar. testing by North the Brumman for a net. geo documentary, not the actual HO229, that picture I put up.". >> Oh, interesting. Is there any actual. documented photographs of the HO229? >> Um, that's I'm going to go with if there. was only three of them and they weren't.

ours. So we know that jets existed in 41. and so and the the Nazis had really. advanced technology in terms of. automobiles, in terms of engineering, rocketry. They were way more advanced. than us, which is why we took all those. Nazi scientists. >> Yeah. >> From Operation Paperclip. >> and ignored their war crimes so that. they could work for NASA. And they had a. they had an important uh weapon too that. we never talk about that we also took a.

form of propaganda. They had propaganda specific form not. the kind that you can Google and see. Nazi propaganda and stuff like that. Like a really effective form of. propaganda. >> What how in what way would they have? >> Um so that's another thing. So uh. >> so this is an actual photograph of it. >> Whoa. So, if you saw that thing flying. through the sky in 1947, you would. probably think that's from another. planet. >> That totally looks like an a space. I.

remember um after September 11th in. 2001, I was filming Fear Factor and we. were in uh Southern California near. [sighs] what is the base that's out. there? Is it Edwards? Um, we're we're. near one of the Air Force bases and I. saw a stealth bomber fly overhead and it. looks like it's from another planet. It. looks so crazy. We stopped filming. We. were like, "Dude, what the It.

looks like Darth Vader's flying it.". >> Yeah. >> You know, it's so weird. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't seem like it's ours now. I. know it is and I know they exist, but if. I didn't. >> and I saw that. >> Yeah. So, you got to assume also that if. I saw it in 2001, >> maybe they had it in 1999, maybe they. had it in 1989, maybe they had it in 79. Yep. >> Maybe they had something like that. >> So, that article says that we found that. prototype in Germany, brought it back, and then this is what North potentially.

made after. >> So, this is a this is a wing powered by. propellers, though. >> We didn't know how to make those jets, >> right? And so they probably put the jets. on it later. But that looks alien. >> Yeah. >> So when you think of the Kenneth Arnold. sighting and you think of the. description that he had, it's very. similar to that. >> Yeah. >> So that might have been it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But that doesn't that doesn't jive with. the tic tac. The tic tac's bananas. >> Yeah, it is. It is. >> Like that the speed that that thing. moved, every human being inside of it,

if there was a person flying in that, they would have got turned into jello-. Yeah. >> Just from the G-forces. >> That's right. That's right. >> Also, there's no material that we have. that could survive that kind of speed. >> Yeah. Um I know. >> see this came out in those I think this. came out in those alien document or one. of the dumps. >> Yeah. >> So this is a lot of people have said. that it's Lockheed Martin created that. thing and that is exactly what it looked. like including those weird things at the. bottom. Mhm.

>> Those weird things at the bottom, whatever that those little. whatever those little tube looking. things at the bottom of it, that is part. of what they describe when they said. they saw the tic tac. And there have. been people in the air quotes disclosure. movement that have said openly that. thing was a Lockheed Martin device. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Okay. So, that's the case. What What is. that? And how's that thing moving and.

how's it moving that way in 2004? >> Yeah. >> And if Loheed Martin has this kind of. technology 22 years ago, >> yeah, >> that that baffles me and that defies. your imagination just runs wild. Like. >> so that's my point is that you know if. if this is happening and this has been. happening um it's like it's well this is. something that's. kept well guarded and even I don't think.

even with the disclosure today I don't. think that push is gonna is going to be. effective is going to. >> I see what you're saying so that thing. from the disclosure dump from. >> I'm looking at more info right now. >> what is that. >> what the perplexity has to say about it. it's not a hoax real or uh it's. certainly a ho wait. >> almost certainly a hoax. >> oh how dare you perplexity. >> boo but what perplexity getting this. information from.

So it says what the story claims a. document circulating on social media. since August of 2025 purports to be a. leaked Lockheed Martin CIA flight manual. for a craft called the CL957. Gen 2 nickname Tic Tac per the claims. Instagram skunk works post someone made. it on Reddit it says. >> okay of course Jason Wild on X Reddit. forensic breakdown Tana YouTube analysis. no providence nothing in the freedom of. information act archives. Uh the CIA.

crest database, black vault or national. archive references, CL 957 or orbit. lance real black programs. Ox cart uh. have blue tactic blue all eventually. left paper trails. Wrong designation. scheme locked CL um blank blank blank. California temporary design numbers are. documented. CL282 CL1200. Lancer etc. and CL 957 doesn't appear in.

any credible listing document artifacts. analyst flag typography. formatting and classification marking. inconsistencies versus real technical. orders plus anacronistic. F-22 references and an odd CIA series. aircraft phase phrasing h. >> it's only been found on social media. nowhere else. >> well then it's real [snorts]. you know that X is the news now don't. you pay attention. God, Jamie, sorry.

I want to believe I want to believe that. Loheed Martin has that. They might. >> Well, we always have Travis Walton. >> Yeah, but like Travis is one guy with. one story. Very interesting. >> There's a lot of them, though. >> Yeah. Oh, 100%. There's There's a lot of. weird stories. And there's a lot of. weird stories of what Travis the the the. thing is the real problem is once it. becomes iconic, right? Like once there's. once there's once there's a story that. gets out there like uh Betty and Barney.

Hill for instance. >> Yeah. >> You hear that story and then that story. becomes a part of folklore. That story. becomes a part of people's imagination. and when you start thinking about grays, you immediately start thinking about. Whitley Striber, right? You start. thinking about communion, you start. thinking about close encounters. So you. already have these images in your mind. of what these things are supposed to. look like. That's right. Yeah. >> And that's a part of the problem, right? >> Uh kind of. Yeah. Yeah, >> that is a part of the problem. Um, I was. going to go down another path.

>> Okay. >> Okay. So, about reverse engineering. stuff like how does this work, >> right? >> All right. So, one of the things that I. came to like understand was that um a. couple of people told me about this and. it was nothing that they intended to. tell me by the way, but I asked. So, you. know, Tyler was was doing this reverse. engineering type of thing. He's trying. to find people to help him with with. this. And he would have what he thought. were or alleged [snorts]. UFO debris that he had found at various. places like in New Mexico and so forth.

And then what he had to do was he had to. get together a group of engineers that. could actually reverse engineer it. And. he would tell them, he wouldn't say this. is a UFO or this is, you know, something. found in the desert. No, no. He would. say this is China's or this is Russia's. and we need in order to keep our you. know dominance or whatnot we need to get. this reverse engineered pronto and that. this lie would then motivate these guys. okay and that they would reverse.

engineer this and he would come up with. something okay so later on I would. listen to how and how would give these. these talks how put off by the way who's. who's one of the people that is. interested in UFOs and knows a lot about. them and so He gave this talk at the. inaugural soul conference and I was. there. Um, and so I was listening to him. and to me it sounded like what he was. saying was exactly what Tyler was saying. that he was saying, "We have this, you. know, but we don't actually know how to.

do this, how to backineer this, so we're. going to give it to this talented group. of people and we're going to tell them. that this was already made, but a a. nonally, like an enemy had it." So. basically by telling them this they. would then. like in a sense do kind of like a a. trick on their minds and they would. actually reverse engineer it. They would. reverse engineer something that he said. already existed. So in a sense it was. like um not only working with time in a. weird way like kind of like you know.

projecting what was going to be in the. future telling them it already had been. done. So that made me think this is like. the propaganda that I'm talking about. and that you just started to talk about. Like if we could then on a mass scale. tell people that we have something or. this is the case maybe there would be a. critical like mental construct and. people would actually do something or. rise to the occasion or something like. that. That could have been propaganda. for the space race, right? That could.

have been like the moon landing stuff. like you know uh I'm not saying that. didn't happen by the way. I'm saying. that you know part of it was a way to. get Americans to win the space race we. had to already believe that we won it. right. In order to create this stuff we. already have to believe that someone. else created it. It's like the five. minute mile. >> Mhm. >> You see what I'm saying? So. >> four minute right? >> Yeah. That why maybe it's a five minute. to me. [laughter]. The women's five minute mile right. No,

the four-minute mile. That's right. So, we already had to believe that it had. been done in order to do it, >> right? Because once someone broke it, then a bunch of people broke it. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, so Oh, and. then I was asked by people who are um in. the government to speak to inter agency. like people, scientists. And so they. would have me talk to these scientists, like 50 of them, right, from various.

parts of the government, and basically. tell them the story of like American. Cosmic. And I was like, okay, I'll do. that. Why? You know, they didn't say. anything about why. But I started to. think maybe this is like a how put off. thing or maybe this is like a Tyler. thing that I'm doing this for them so. that their brains can think this has. already been done. We better do this. M. So when when you say the sophisticated. propaganda that the Nazis have that that. we took this technology from them like. what do you mean by that like what was. their tech what what was unique about.

their propaganda? >> All right. So I don't know exactly but I. do have some ideas and two of the ideas. I have are what I just told you that if. you can seed the population with images. and belief you know that will impact. their belief you can change it. Okay. there's that one but there's also the. one that you know Bill Cooper's book um. >> Behold Pay a horse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in behold a to pay a horse he. talks about the quiet weapons where he's.

talking about basically technology and. how technology is going to. engineer consent and he's talking about. this in I don't know what exactly when. he read that. >> engineer consent. >> yeah engineer consent of the population. about certain things and you do that. through uh utilizing social media well. he's not calling it that he's calling it. quiet weapons but you know back then. putting stuff on TV and you know. creating a narrative that people buy.

into and believe and he said that this. is going to uh you see this by the way. with Arthur C. Clark in his book in his. short story childhood's end or no it's a. book um where you know that he's talking. about aliens where these aliens are. engineering humanity through technology. through social media and things like. that. [clears throat]. >> so this could be what the Nazi. propaganda the weapon is that it could. be used as a weapon but it could also be.

used for good [snorts]. >> and it could be used to facilitate. technological innovation by telling them. that it's already been done. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, when I was I. was uh I ran in college, so I was a. college runner uh for track and cross. country and I had a great team of. coaches who would teach us sports. psychology and part of what we would do. would be we would already see us. winning. We would already see and they.

would also tell us so and so ran this, you know, you can do this. So in a sense. they were utilizing that on our team and. it it was good. It was you know helpful. >> Right. Well it's it's very important. your mindset especially when it comes to. athletics because there's so much that's. involved in competition that's. psychological. >> Yeah. >> Do you think that that also is the case. when it comes to technological. innovation? >> Definitely. You have to believe that it.

can be done or that it has been done and. that it helps you figure out the. pathway. >> I mean, this is what I'm telling you. So, with the the people that I just. talked about, we're talking about Tyler, right? We're talking about um then how. even though I don't think he'd say that. that's what he was do doing or talking. about, that's what I interpreted his. talk to be. And he's talking, you know, he's he has some really interesting. >> uh ideas about physics and matter and. reality and so forth. Um and then later. on uh yeah that's what I think you know.

I think that that works that actually. works. >> it makes sense that it would that the. blocks that people have in their mind. about what is and what is not possible. that if you say not only is it possible. it's already been done so. >> yeah so yeah so I don't know like when. we start to talk about like the various. things that we've been talking about. like you know if this is real and that. happened and so forth maybe that's what. the they're trying to get us not to talk. about The really interesting things like. maybe that, you know, that form of what.

what could be a form of mind control. >> I understand that. But when it comes to. technology that could have military. applications and that we've had all. these military conflicts, you would. imagine that you would see some of this. stuff being utilized. And there's no. real evidence that there has been like. there's no evidence from Iraq or. Afghanistan from any of those conflicts. that we had something that moves faster. than the speed of light and that we have. weapons that were indescribable. until Nicaragua.

So, or Venezuela rather, the the. Venezuelan contact where we um conflict. rather where we abducted the president. and we came in and incapacitated. everybody with some sort of a sound. weapon like that all stuff sounds like. super science fictiony and when you. realize like that is real, they. absolutely did that. So they have had. something for a long time that can do. things that are beyond our understanding.

of what we thought was possible. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How put off had that crazy story about. when he was working for the Bush. administration where they brought him in. with a bunch of other scientists about. thought leaders. >> Yeah. And they said we are going to. disclose that there are alien crafts and. that we have biological remains of. creatures from some other place. what is. the negative and what are the positive. impacts of this and I want you to put a. numerical value on each one of them and. tell us what what the result is and all.

all the people that they brought in all. had similar conclusions when they said. how's it going to impact government. how's it going to impact religion how's. it going to impact society or economy. there's way more negative than there is. positive and so they decided not to. disclose and when he tells that story. just like. god that tracks that tracks like that. they would do that that they would say. maybe we should tell everybody but this. is going to be the impact. >> My belief is that's a temporary impact.

and that societyy's going to continue to. function because it's pragmatic. We're. going to have to you're going to have to. have an economy. You're going to have to. have government. You're going to have to. have all these things while also knowing. we're not alone. And maybe that would. help dissolve some of the conflicts that. we have because if we think that we're. the only gang in town and then there's. another gang over there and we're duking. it out with them. >> If we find out well actually there's a. gang from another planet that's that's. the Reagan speech to the United Nations. that all the UFO dorks went like, "Oh,

he's telling us something that if we. were faced with a threat from another. world, how quickly we would put aside. our differences.". >> Yep. That's right. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, yeah. I I I'm with you. I think. that people won't be um they won't go. into shock and things, >> but it would temporarily disrupt. everything. And that therein lies the. problem. The problem is the collapse of. the economy, global trust in government. Like if the government really isn't the. people that are in control, if there. really is something far above and beyond.

human government that has some sort of. an influence on world events, that's. that's that's a real it's tough to vote. in a congressman that says they're going. to enact change when we're being. observed by extraterrestrial life that. can read your mind. >> I don't know if that's true. I don't. know if I agree with you on that. I. think that it's all I think people will. be all right. I mean, we're having the. government say today, right? I mean, JD. Vance on your podcast just said it's. they're demons, right? That's that's.

[laughter]. >> If JD Vance doesn't know, aren't we all. if he just thinks that they're. demons, like what he doesn't seem. >> he says he's too busy to like really dig. into the UFO stuff, which I kind of get. and understand, but also don't because. if that was. >> obviously I'm never going to be vice. president, but if I was, that would be. like the first thing I would look into. as soon as I got into my desk. I'd be. like, where they have everything? I'm. going there. I'm going there. I'm going.

to say you have to show me and I'll keep. my mouth shut, but I need to know like. you need to show me. We need to know. like what are we I need to know what. position we're at in order to move. forward. I don't know. I need to know. where are we operating from. Are we. operating from a position where human. beings are the advanced dominant. intellect on Earth or not? >> Because if it's or not, that changes. everything. >> But you're rare. You're the rare person. who like most people in the United.

States believe in God. Like there are. more than 80% of people who believe in. God. They think God runs it, right? God. is a non-human intelligence. >> But that doesn't they they're not. mutually exclusive. Like God could exist. and also intelligent life from elsewhere. could also exist. >> That's right. And that's why most people. won't be shocked or upset. I don't think. that there's going to be a level of um. anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I. don't. Well, hasn't the Vatican even. addressed this and saying that if alien. life exists that God could have created.

life other places? >> Of course. Yeah. >> Which really does make sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're not going to be. upset. And there are a lot of Catholics. in the United States. So, I mean, people. in the United States or even all over. the world, there are countries like in. Brazil where they're okay with, you. know, if they're if there are aliens up. there, it's not going to change. They're. probably watching us and nobody's going. to be upset about that. They're still. going to vote for their presidents and. their congress people and so forth. >> Yeah. So, you're like the only one here. that I not the only one, but you're. representing a small minority of people.

in my opinion. >> How so? >> Because you think that that it's going. to change everything. You think that it. might actually change your worldview, but it's not going to change the 80% out. there. >> It's not going to change their. worldview. >> I think that's a guess. Mine's a guess. as well. It's a guess of how it's going. to affect the world. I I would assume it. affects it in a pretty spectacular way. If we have undeniable proof that there.

is some superior intelligence that's. interacting with us and perhaps even. controlling events and preventing. certain things from happening like when. they go over nuclear bases and stop. weapons functions. >> This is a religious worldview. That's a. that's the religious worldview. you're. you're identifying right there. How is. that a religious worldview that there's. an intelligent life form from another. planet that comes from. >> not another planet but like you know. there's an intelligent interdimensional. >> right we don't know if it's from another. planet that's a guess so most [snorts].

religions are assuming that there are. other there are gods and goddesses or. there is god and there are angels and. demons and things like that there you. know non-human intelligences so they. already think this and this is already a. world view. >> well that's what gets weird when you get. into the really old scripts like The. Book of. >> Enoch. >> That's right. >> That you know, Anna Paulina Luna, she's. the one who turned me on that. And yeah, I've listen to the audio book of the. Book of Enoch twice now.

>> And every time I listen to I'm like, what the were they talking about? >> Like what is what are the Watchers who. came down and and bred with the. daughters of man and created the. Nephilim? Like what is what is all this. stuff? >> Yeah. that informs a lot of Christian. doctrines basically. >> Well, not really. Not today. But because. it's not included in the cannon, but. what if it was, right? >> It's included in the canon, but just not.

in reference to the book of Enoch. I. mean, if you. >> Well, the book of Enoch's not in the. canon, but Enoch is referenced in the. Bible. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Which is kind of nuts that you don't get. the book of Enoch, >> but you have the worldview of Enoch. A. lot of Christians still believe in that. And it's I would say that I don't know. like [snorts] more than 50%. So even. though so yes. So. >> more than 50% believe. >> they believe in the worldview of of. Enoch that we're that there are watchers. and fallen angels and things like that.

that you know this is the supernatural. worldview and it's alive and well. Paul. uh she believes in it, right? She. believes that there that Yeah. Anna. Pelina. Oh. >> yeah. So, uh, I've heard her say that. she thinks they're interdimensional. beings also. So, in a sense, the. paternal, >> right? Um, imagine a world, imagine how. different religion would be if the book. of Enoch was regularly taught in sun. Sunday at church that they would tell.

you that story along with Moses and. along with all the other stories that. they would tell you about the book of. Enoch. And everybody in the church would. be sitting there like, "What? What are. you talking about? Who are the watchers? Like what are they? They came down and. and lay with the daughters of man. What? >> Yeah. >> Like this is this was a part of an. ancient story. And the real question is. when whenever I read these biblical. stories, I'm always trying to I know.

that they're writing things down. First. of all, they're writing it in ancient. Hebrew and then it's transcribed and and. translated into Latin and to Greek and. all these other languages and a lot is. lost in that translation. A lot lot gets. interpreted very weird because of just. the just the way languages are formed. Just the way they they structure. sentences the way like a lot of the. context of it is weird. Also in ancient. Hebrew numbers double letters double as. numbers. So.

>> a lot of coded stuff, >> right? Yeah. So there's numerical value. to the words which is really weird. >> There are churches though that do teach. that there are some religious. traditions. I agree with you that this. tradition is not well taught to. Christians or Jewish people or you know. today. But that doesn't mean that the. Christians aren't going to go out and. learn for themselves. They do. They do. learn for themselves and they actually. have communities that know about this. So lots do. >> Well certainly the Ethiopians.

>> Yeah. Of course. Right. Which is weird. >> that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it. They have the book of Enoch as a part of. the Ethiopian Bible. >> Yeah. That Well, it's one it's one of. the first Bibles. It's one of the first. So, Ethiopian Christianity is like one. of the oldest forms of continuous. Christianity. But there's no. continuously practice. >> No real translation of it that's. available in English, >> right? Isn't that the case with the. Ethiopian Bible? >> Well, let's see. Yeah, I guess you're. right. I don't actually know about that. if I mean, you can look it up. I mean,

people can look up this stuff and there. are people who write about it. Like my. field, people write about it, >> right? Your field. But I mean, the. average Christian is not really aware of. what's in the book of Enoch. >> Yeah, you're right. You're right. So, that's where like a basic studies. religion class like where you know, if. you take my class, I'll make you aware. of it. I'll make you aware of the. different forms of Christianity, right? The ones before the Roman Catholicism. and you know, the earliest forms of. Christianity. I'll also make you aware. of the supernatural world view.

>> I feel like it's all there was something. that happened there. There's real events. and. I just don't know. if the stories are accurate. I don't. know if the the written version of these. stories accurately relays the real. events that took place and what they're. trying to say, especially when in. regards to the Watchers and the Nephilim. and all that stuff and the giants.

There's just so many weird parts of. those stories that we're just supposed. to just accept. Like, what is that? That sounds to me. like genetic engineering is what it. sounds like. It sounds like a primitive. translation of or explanation of what. genetic engineering of human beings was. That's what it sounds like. >> You know, that belief was still around. um after Jesus was crucified in within. the early church because Paul writes. about it in his letters.

>> What does he write about? >> Okay. So, you know the um the tradition. of women wearing veils in church. >> No. >> Yeah. So if you go to a mass today like. a Catholic mass some women will be. wearing veils and if you go to a. traditionalist mass mass they will be. wearing veils and um the reason that. Paul gave was because of the angels that. were attracted to them in church. So you. have to be careful women when you go to. church the angels might be there who. might be attracted to you. He doesn't. say that specifically but that's part of.

the reason why. So the early Christian. church was that they were immersed in. that worldview. That worldview was is. still around. >> So the women wore veils so that the. watchers wouldn't find them attractive. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. And some women still wear veils. >> That's crazy. >> So yeah, a lot of that tradition is. still here. >> So just a residual interpretation of. whatever the original story, the. original event was.

>> That's right. Do you think humans were genetically. engineered? >> I'm, [laughter] you know, I'm Catholic, right? I'm Christian. Okay. So, >> what do you think happened? >> I I mean, of course, my views have. changed. So, before I got into the UFO. thing, I was a, you know, I went to. Catholic church. I went to daily mass. sometimes. I was Christian. I've been. Christians since I was 11. I was raised. by secular parents. They were not. >> How did you get involved in. Christianity? I was converted through on.

Easter, by the way, on Good Friday by. watching and I didn't try to watch it. was on TV. My parents had put it on and. I was 11 and I was doing Easter eggs and. they were playing uh Franco Zepharelli's. Jesus of Nazareth and I started to watch. it. Now, I didn't know that he was. crucified at the end because I was just, you know, a kid. I wasn't raised. religious at all. And my dad came from a. Catholic family. My mother came from a. Jewish family or she's Jewish and so.

they didn't practice religion. Total. rationalists. Um so I was watching it. and it was when the the scene where. where the woman the adulterous woman is. just about to be stoned to death by. these guys, right? This big group and. they're just about to throw the stones. and Jesus goes down and starts drawing. something. And I was like what the what. is he going to do? And um he basically. says, "Those of you with uh without sin, throw the first stone." And I was like, "Oh, that was brilliant, right?" And so.

then I was hooked. I was hooked. And at. the end, he was crucified. I was. devastated. And so I told my mother, I. said, "Mom, you have to buy me a Bible. Like, you have to." So the next day we. went out. She doesn't know what to look. for. So, we go to this store and the the. the person helped us out and they gave. us a a King James version of the Bible, red letter. I said, "I want everything. that Jesus said. I want to know all that. he said." And I was hooked on it. And. so, I read this thing. I read the whole. thing. And at that point, I recognized I.

had to grow up and I had to read the. original sources because that was hard. to read. It didn't make sense. And I was. like, "This doesn't make sense to me. What he said was beautiful." And I was. hooked. Um, I became a Christian. >> What didn't make sense to you? What part. of. >> the whole Bible? The whole Bible when. you start to read it from beginning to. end. You know, there are all those. things that you just don't understand. There are two creation stories in. Genesis and you're like, well, why are. there two? And you know, there are all. those names and lineages and you're. like, what? You get to the book of. Leviticus and it has all these rules and.

regulations and you're like, you just. don't understand it. And I knew that at. that point I needed to learn the. original languages and how they were put. together. That's why I decided to become. a professor of religion. >> And so, um, I became a Christian and I. was a born again Christian. And then. when it came time to go to high school, I asked my father, he had connections to. Catholics, if I could go to Catholic. high school. Luckily, I went to a. Sisters of Mercy high school where they.

were beautiful people and I learned. Catholicism in action, like actually. helping people and stuff. And um, and I. became Catholic. And so I've been. Catholic my whole life after that. Uh. >> did your parents ever join you? >> My dad My dad did. Yeah. He's passed. away. He died pretty young, but yeah, he. did. He he was brought back to religion. because of me. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was really pretty. intense. But um my you know that's just how it.

was. Uh but anyway, so that I became. very interested obviously you know I. thought this is super important. we have. to know about the how this happened just. like you said how do I know this really. happened and um and that's when I became. aware of the old like the Ethiopian. church the earliest texts for Christians. and the and I don't think Christian. churches do a good job of relaying this. information to Christians frankly I.

think that they don't do the best job. and that they could do it better and so. I now I teach New Testament at my. university and you know I I do my best. to kind of convey what the what these. people were experiencing and and the. kinds of people still experience those. things today. So yeah, so that's how I. became uh that's how I became Christian. >> Interesting. So. when I said do you think that human. beings were genetically engineered?

Your response was I'm Catholic. >> Yeah. Unless you're talking about God. doing that genetic engineering. >> So you you think that the Bible is a. absolute literal translation of real. events? So what do you think it is? >> It's a Okay. So Catholics don't believe. in biblical literalism, which is that it. you can't because there are so many. parts of the Bible that contradict. So. you'd be, you know, that would be a. contradiction. Uh but they believe that. it is the inspired word of God written. by people, written by men. And so.

there's fallibility in terms of the not. in morals and the conveying of the. spirit of Christianity, >> right? >> Uh but you know, so so yeah, that's what. they believe. So in terms of the genetic. engineering, do I I believe that Enoch, the book of Enoch, it conveys the spirit. of truth. Absolutely. Do I believe that. there are um that's why I believe that. if the according listen when I started. to study UFOs I was not expecting at all.

what I found and what I found reinforced. my own religion my own Catholic. upbringing or selfchosen upbringing. >> how did it reinforce it. >> okay so that's that's where I was at. actually so I was pretty secular even as. a Christian especially after I went to. graduate school. So I went to graduate. school, studied all of this stuff and. then became a professor and I believed. in the spirit of the book. I believed in.

the spirit of Christianity. I believed. it's true. Therefore, I taught it to my. kids. I went to church. I'd sometimes go. to mass. You know, they have daily mass. and and Catholicism. I homeschooled my. kids in a Catholic homeschool group uh. for the most part until they needed some. outsourcing in math. And so um but it. wasn't until I became I studied UFOs. that I recognized that the book of Enoch. is alive and well today. That's what I. recognized in eupfology and I.

encountered stuff that I thought looked. pretty dodgy and I was like this looks. like the pre-ternatural and I it so. that's what I'm saying. It supercharged. my Christianity to the point where I. went back and I reread all of that stuff. again. And I recognized that whatever. they're dealing with now when people are. having these experiences so forth, um. not all of them, but a good many of them. are uh you can, you know, look to me.

similar in in kind. I don't say they're. identical, but they look similar. And. therefore, um, if that's the case, then, you know, I I need to be a different. type of believer. I need to be a much. more, uh, believing believer, if that. makes. >> believe. Yeah. And if I can't be secular. about my Christianity, I actually have. to practice it, live it, be prepared for. what comes next. Kind of that lifestyle. >> That's what that's the kind of. lifestyle. Is it in any way frustrating.

that you have studied so much of these. encounters and these experiences but you. don't have a personal encounter or a. personal experience with these things? >> Uh well that's an assumption that you. have. >> that you don't have one. >> Yeah. >> Do you have one? >> Well maybe I'm I don't feel comfortable. talking about it but yeah I have some. experiences. But. >> why don't you feel comfortable talking. about it? You re This is part of what. you do for a living. you you talk about.

other people's encounters. Why would you. not feel comfortable talking about your. encounters? >> Um well because that is um I mean I'm. not sure what to think of them. That's. why I listen this is not what motivated. me to study euphology or those kinds of. things. When I think about the. >> Did you have these encounters before you. studied eupfology? >> When I look back I say yes I had those. encounters. Yeah. >> When did you first have an encounter? I. didn't interpret them as UFOs though.

Well, my I did have a family member who. had an experience with what looks like a. UFO and it was documented. I actually. found a documentation of it from the. time in a newspaper. Other people had. seen it too. So, I live in a place that. is called that has UFOs. So, I grew up. uh near Folsam Lake and that's there are. lots of UFOs around that area. And so he. had a this is of course a long time ago. when we he was not interested in UFOs. I.

wasn't and he was he was young riding. his bike up a hill and he saw it and um. and it kind of it was a classic UFO. thing. Turned around, looked at him and. he was like, "What?" And sped down the. hill screaming. Uh came into the. driveway. My parents went out there. Now, my parents complete rationalists. and they see it too and they uh they saw. it and it just kind of like hovered and. it was like a giant orb, orange orb and.

it hovered for a while and then it just. went up in the sky and disappeared. And. so they had this. This is before I went. to college. Every it was a very long. time ago. And um and then later when I. started to study this uh I I had family. members tell me, "Yeah, remember that.". And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, tell me. about that." And so they reiterated that. this is what happened. And they wanted. to kind of get it on the record. And. then um one of them found the. documentation of a newspaper at the time.

and sent it to me. So I have that data. So there's been that. But that's kind of. a normal thing. Like people have those. experiences and you know they nothing. changes. >> But you said that you had experiences. that you're not necessarily comfortable. talking about. >> I wouldn't I didn't have a UFO. experience. Like I haven't had like UFO. experiences like that. >> What have you had? >> Well, I have the very normal experience. of a person who is a believing. Christian. And if you have if you're. that kind of person, you will have.

experiences where you feel like this is, you know, there's there's more to life. than kind of what you're taught at. school. So that's the kind of experience. I'm talking about. Uh people in the book. of Acts, >> can you elaborate like what do you mean. by that? Yeah. >> What what experiences have you had that. made you feel that way? >> Oh, I've had lifelong experiences like. that that. >> like what? Well, just that certain. things happen at the right time at the. right moment. And you know, I mean, lots. of people have these experiences. If you. read about uh Mel Gibson doing his.

movies, you know, the um Passion of the. Christ, he talks about very powerful. things that happened on the set. So. things like this, things that you you. know that they're not probable like Jim. Cavisel being hit by lightning when he's. on the cross and you know things like. that that happen. Uh that's you're like. wow. Okay. I mean you could say that's a. coincidence and you know you can look at. it from that perspective but uh.

it's all outlined in the book of Acts in. the New Testament. If you read that. book, it talks about these very these. very uh significant experiences to the. people. But the reason I don't talk. about them is because if you talk about. them to people who don't have those. experiences, they will just say, "Well, that's just a coincidence or that's. that." So you're like, "Yeah, that's one. way to look at it." So you can't convey. it's like a it's a question of just. qualia. It's a it's a question of your.

own perception of it, >> right? But as an educator, don't you. think perhaps if you have had these. experiences, you have a responsibility. to try to relay that information to. people? >> No. No. No. Because I'm I teach. religious studies. So in religious. studies, you'll see this this in my. book, too. Uh you're teaching about the. actual book, the the cont social. context, the historical context. You're. not actually advocating for a belief.

system, >> but but relaying your personal. experiences is not advocating for a. belief system. >> It would be. It would be. >> Um. because. >> isn't it a belief? Isn't an experience. open to interpretation? >> An experience. >> So, how would you be relaying your. belief systems by having an experience. that you detail in an honest way that's. open to interpretation? I would do that. if I was in a a a situation where that. kind of experience was helpful to.

people. I and I have done that before. Like I've been on podcasts where um you. know where they would say they're. Christians and you know we're talking. about Christian life and so forth and I. would explain my experiences and we. would talk about that and people would. you know they would talk about their. experiences. But when you're at a. secular university that's not what you. do. You don't do that. When I'm writing. as a scholar of religion, you're not. that's not what it's about. It's not. about whether or not these experiences.

are real. What it is about is about. how this is shaping culture. Now, >> what I meant when I asked you that. question, I'm talking about UFO. abductions, encountering beings and. entities. >> That's what I'm talking about. I'm like, have you had one of those experiences? I. have not. Don't you wish he did? >> Um, no. It doesn't look like I wish that. I did. When I look at what happens to. people who have had abductions and these.

experiences, um, it looks traumatic, Joe. I don't No, I don't want that. >> Interesting. >> Like, life is already traumatic enough, you know? [sighs]. >> Right. I get what you're saying. Um, when you hear about people that uh. supposedly. they they have this uh ritualistic. practice where they manifest orbs and. they they meditate and. >> psionics. >> What do you think that is?

>> Yeah. So, I do believe that they're. doing something. >> A friend of mine did it recently and. she's she's very rational. Okay. >> She's a very rational person, very. intelligent person and she wants me to. do it with her. She's like, "You got to. come and try this out." And like, we. were trying to set a date where she's. like, "I'll explain to you how I did it. and how you do it." I was like, "All. right, I believe you." Like, I've been. friends with her for decades. She's. super rational, very normal person, very.

intelligent, not crazy in any way, shape, or form. And she's like, "This. gonna sound nuts, but if you do. this, and if you do it and you give it. enough time, they will show up.". >> Is this with like Steven Greer? or is it. like C5 with him? >> She doesn't do She's She's not in any. way associated with that guy, but. >> she was taught how to do it by someone. else. >> And she said she went on some. thing where they they all did it. together. Yeah. >> And and then she's done it privately. alone and she said you could do it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> She's gonna she said it's going to sound. insane, but it's real. >> Okay. >> What do you think about that? All right. Well, I believe that it. happens. >> What do you think is happening? >> I'm not sure what's happening, but I. don't think I would do it. >> Why not? >> Because I I believe in cognitive. sovereignty. Like I believe that we. should be sovereign like our, you know, not have something.

>> interacting with us. >> Yeah. Beyond mentally and spiritually. >> and you know, so yeah, that's why I. wouldn't do it. >> But is does it take away your. sovereignty to communicate with. something else? Yeah, a lot of times it does. So, one of. the things that I noticed when I started. to talk to people, and I don't want to. like, you know, tell you not to do it, but. >> I'm going to do it, >> but Okay. >> You're not going to talk me out of it. >> All right. [laughter] All right. I. wouldn't do it. Um, [clears throat]. yeah. So, one of the things I noticed.

was a lot of people in the beginning. when I was doing this research would and. still today would say, "Diana, you can. contact these beings, okay? And this is. how you do it and you have to give them. permission." And I was like, "What are. you talking about? That. >> sounds like vampire shit.". >> Yeah, that's right. I'm like, "I'm not. going to let the vampire in.". >> Yeah. Yeah. You have to give them. permission. Yeah. And And that's. >> Isn't that weird? I wonder if that's. where that comes from. >> All right. Well, that's what I'm telling. you that you should. >> The vampire lore is that you have to. invite them in. >> That's right. But that's the demonic. lore, too.

>> Really? You have to invite them in. >> So, I mean, if you're going to do that, that's you're inviting them in. >> Oh, boy. >> So, >> now I'm secondg guessing it. [laughter]. I'm just saying uh there's. >> Jamie, would you do it? >> I mean, I almost tried. I think I think. I try [laughter] daily, but like just in. my own head. >> What do you think about people that have. psychedelic experiences where they. encounter entities? >> I think they're encountering entities. Yeah. So, I think psychedelics is the.

quick way to open up that spiritual part. of your brain, but it's a dangerous way. Well, look, okay, I'm not I don't want. to go down this. I've I've been on I've. gone down this road before, but um. >> what's wrong with the road? Why don't. you like to go down that road? >> Oh, because I guess um. there's there's part of your brain. actually we talked about this last time. I was on here. We talked about the. spiritual sense, remember? We talked. about the pineal gland and stuff like. that. Okay. So, I've learned a lot about.

it since then. All right. And what I I. it's a real thing. Okay. And the again. the Christian churches don't do a good. job of conveying that this is really. important for Christians to know about. and not just Christians but religious. people all over the world. This is what. they're doing when they're doing those. protocols of religion. They're trying to. cultivate the spiritual sense. Why? Because the human being is oriented. toward the sacred. Like we're we're a. very specific type of thing. We're.

oriented toward the sacred. The. spiritual sense is what helps us connect. to it. We could, you know, utilize the. spiritual sense through certain things, fasting, um, living a certain way, you. know, and that sort of thing. It's. really important, by the way. And, um, digital culture like is messing with. that, by the way, the spiritual sense. Okay. So, psychedelics are one way to. like hijack into it and, you know, open. up that world. Uh, so it's a quick way,

but it's it's I wouldn't call it the. ideal way. Although in some religions. like the Church of Native Americans, that's their way of doing it. That's. their way of doing it. All right. And. they have rituals to do it with, you. know, it's sacred. Um, yeah. So to do it casually and without, you know, without attention is probably. might be dangerous. I've done I've.

utilized mushrooms when I was young. Um. >> I like that word. >> utilized. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> You know, when I did it though, like I. was really young. >> Very official. >> I was I was very young and uh I prayed. before I did it, my friend and I, and we. had a really, you know, good experience. and so forth. But I think I was just. lucky. Okay. I think I was lucky. >> Why do you think that? >> Because I've had friends who've had. really terrible experiences, >> right? And so I think that it's best. just not to unless you're like born into.

that culture that does that and that's. part of your religion. >> One of the things that seems to be the. case in a lot of the people that have. had um these bad experiences is that. they try to fight it and that they they. try to battle with the experience. They. try to take control of it. The ego gets. in the way. they they want to regain. some sort of a control over their. consciousness and and they fight with it. and they have bad trips. You know, there's moments when you do psychedelics.

where you realize I just got to let it. go. I just got to realize that I'm not. in control of this at all and just let. it go. And some people can let it go and. some people can't. I've seen people. struggle with it. I've seen people that. can't let it go and they fight with it. and they have really bad trips and it's. very scary to watch. Mhm. >> But I think that's the root of it. I. think the root of it is you're battling. with something that you can't beat. >> You just have to just let go. >> Mhm. >> And just take it in. Here we go.

Just go on the ride. And some people. can't go on the ride like no. And. they're grabbing the walls and they're. grabbing vines and they're trying to. stop their progression. They don't want. to do it. Like it's too scary for them. They don't want to let go. They don't. want to they don't want to erode their. belief system. They don't want to expand. their view of the world. They're just. too, it's too scary. They have a problem. with fear. They have a problem with the. unknown. They have a problem with having. this very isolated view of reality and.

having that shattered in front of them. And they they don't feel comfortable. with that. And they they try to they try. to resist it. I think that's what's going on. You have to understand like what it is. and you have to understand that you're. not in control and you got to let it go. You got to go for the ride. But that's also me saying that and my. psyche is very different than another.

person's psyche and theirs is different. than yours. And everyone everyone's. different. Everyone has different. >> experiences, different psychological. vulnerabilities, different you know. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, we were talking before the podcast. about the Shroud of Turan. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. And you were. >> And we, by the way, we brought that up. last time I was here and that happened. by accident, remember? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, a lot of people have. been talking about that since we talked. about it. >> Yeah. Um, you were saying something.

though that the piece that they used for. um, carbon dating that this was a piece. that had been repaired, but I saw. there's a lot of dispute about that. online. >> and it could be. Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of people say that that is. just some sort of apologetic excuse for. why the numbers don't match up. correctly. But then I've also seen. things that say that the pollen that is. on that the fibers matches up with the.

the exact kind of plants that existed in. Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and that that. all aligns and that further testing. needs to be done to determine the actual. date of it. That aside, there's still no. explanation for why that image exists. and how it was created. >> Yeah. >> And um I've never seen anyone explain in. any way that makes any sense how that. could have been forged by someone how it.

could been a forgery from someone that. long ago that they could figure it out. Also, they could make it a a a reverse. negative image. So the only way you see. it is through when you look at it in a. negative. >> Yeah, I know. It's pretty crazy. Yeah, >> that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whatever it is is it's really weird. >> It is totally weird. And there are. people who there is a guy who's a a. doctor of like blood, a hematologist,

and he's he seems to have no he he's not. religious um or he's not like you know. uh out there advocating for religion. and he just happened to study it. Um he. studied the blood and again he was like. and the the uh injuries, you know, because he can study the injuries and. identify and they match up. And I mean, I'm not an expert on the shroud, but. believe me, every expert that's out.

there since I was on your podcast a few. years ago have they've reached out to me. and they're like, "Tell Joe to get me on. and so forth." And um. >> do you know someone that's a real good. credible expert? >> Yeah, I know someone. Well, that man I. think has a good video out there. Check. him out. Um I don't know his name, but. he's I mean you should be able to find. if you uh do a search. Yeah, >> this would be him. >> Uh. >> new study claims blood stains in the. shroud of turn consistent with torture. of Christ. >> That's not He doesn't have an Italian.

name, the one I know, but I mean that. could be too. I mean he could be out. there doing that. um the guy that that. we found. I can send you the link, but. he's he's an American guy and he's just, you know, he doesn't have a fancy video. or anything like that. It's. [clears throat] just But there's another. guy who's Catholic called um his name is. Father Dalton and he's this is his. expertise. He knows about this now. He's. theological. >> but he actually does have studies and so. forth. >> And what is what is unique about his.

perspective? So his perspective is that. first you have to understand the. Catholic Church is very careful about. what they put their you know what they. say is true and not true. It takes them. forever to say something is a miracle. And often when they identify something. as being miraculous they have a huge uh. team of people often [snorts] who are. the best at what they do. They and they. might not be Catholic. Okay? They could. be atheist and so forth. So this was.

studied at Duke University, the Shroud. of Trin in the 1980s and I happened to. know a priest who was a graduate student. there in PhD program and he witnessed. the whole study. Um so father Dalton. would be a person who is Catholic. obviously he is a priest. However, he is. not going to say, you know, he's going. to give you the facts about each of the. studies and he's going to talk. specifically about uh what we don't know. what we don't know about it. What you.

know, might be as a Catholic, you have. to say this is not we don't know about. that. Like, yeah, you're right. It could. be this or that. Same thing with the. Guadalupe tilma, right? So, you know, a. lot of people say it was created by God. and you know, put on this, you know, about that, right? So the the Guadalupe. image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in. Mexico City that was miraculous said to. be miraculously put well there are some. you know things that have been added. later. So I think the shroud is like. that also. Um but there and there's been.

a lot of studies by. >> what's so interesting about this. Guadalupe thing. >> So this is a um this is a tilma which is. a a cloak. It's from this is from the. 1500s. So this is the an image that. allegedly according to devotional. Catholicism this image was imparted onto. this cloak uh and the cloak was was uh. worn by a guy by the way I think I'm not.

sure but uh you know Mel Gibson's icon. like he I think that might be the part. of this. I'm not entirely sure. But so. here you have something that is. unexplainable. Uh part of it is. explainable because after the image was. put on, people had painted over it like. I don't know a hundred years later and. subsequently you know just to upkeep it. The I think the angel was added a couple.

things were added later. Uh but it's. it's it's not as anomalous as the shroud. of term explained as well. Okay. What is. unexplainable about this painting? >> Okay. So this appears to be a painting. but underneath there's an image and the. image is uh is the Virgin Mary herself. without her cloak without the angel and. without the sun around her. And this. image is allegedly had been put on this.

guy's cloak um Juan Diego's cloak in the. 1500s. So he was he had a she wanted a. basilica which by the way she's in right. now and that's what she asked for. The. bishop at the time said I don't believe. you Juan Diego. Uh you have to show me. proof. So he went back to the place. where he had seen her and she said, "Go.

up and get a bunch of flowers and put. them in this cloak of yours and then. bring them to the bishop. You know, they're out of season. They don't grow. in Mexico." So he did. He went he got. the flowers. He went back to the bishop. in Mexico City and he gave them to him. And when they opened it up, there was an. image of the Virgin Mary on the cloak. And that's where that's this is what. that's supposed to be. >> I still don't understand why that's. unique. It's just a a painting.

>> No, no one painted. It just showed up. It was just there. >> Okay. Well, what's it made out of? Like. what is what is the ink? What is what is. the dye? >> Yeah. So, okay. So, all right. So, this. is where it it gets complicated. Um, so. the original cloak is agave material. It's made out of like um, you know, agave. >> Agave [clears throat] plant. >> Yeah. And the original image appears to. be the agave plant fibers. Somehow the. image was from the fibers. It's not.

paint. There's no drawing. >> These colors. >> Okay. So the colors of the cloak around. her that's later in a later edition. >> Okay. How do we know that? >> Uh art historians have looked at it. like people who do they use infrared. photography and they're able to identify. uh the layers of it. >> so that the image existed originally and. then people painted over the image. >> Well, they painted around it. They kind.

of embellished it. >> So, where can we see the original? >> I'm looking I mean it's hard to get that. picture because time. >> that to me is not as interesting is the. shot of Turin. >> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. They're both really. >> also it's painted over already. It's. like it's already been sort of. bastardized. Yeah, >> that's the shroud of Tur is just weird. because it's not ink. >> Yeah. >> It's not dye. It It seems to be some. sort of like like it's burned in somehow.

or another. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. So, if you got someone on here to. talk about it, I would either get Father. Dalton or I would get that doctor. >> I would want someone to dismiss it as. well. I would want two people to talk. about. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be a. great I'd love to see it. >> because uh what you're saying about the. parts of the fabric that had been. repaired and that's what they had did. the radiocarbon dating on. I've heard. that disputed online. >> Okay. >> Yeah. But that would be a thing that you. would say if you wanted to really.

believe that it was more than 2,000. years old. You would say, "Oh, no, no, no. They got the wrong piece.". >> Yeah. >> And also, why was it repaired? Like, why. would someone repair it? Well, because. it's it's a it's a devotional cloth for. the Catholic Church. So, they're going. to keep it, you know, >> by adding more cloth to it. >> Yeah. Because it'll, you know, disintegrate or whatnot. I mean, it's. been making the rounds for a long time, >> right? >> Yeah.

Uh I don't know. >> Yeah. It says it was found in 1350 and. they don't know how it got to where it. was. >> And don't don't they Yeah, that's right. And don't don't they say that that. that's the when they do the radiocarbon. dating it goes back to around that area. I think it goes to like the 1200s. That's what they think it came from. That's where it originated. >> Yeah. So even if it did, it's still. anomalous. It's still weird. >> Yeah, it's definitely weird. It's weird. in the sense that it wasn't painted.

It's not dye. That it seems to have been. created by energy. What is the uh conventional description. for how it was made? Let's see that. Let's see what it says. What's the conventional description?

>> Let's see how is it made. Rectangular. linen cross 4.4 meters long, 1.1 meters. wide, bearing the faint. front and back image of a bearded. crucified man. Conventional description. how it was made as a physical object. Material handwoven woven linen made from. flax fibers weave thread side strip. Okay, but what about the image? Okay, a. faint sepia. >> Is that how you say that word? Sepia.

>> Sepia. Straw yellow image shows a man. with wounds consistent with crucifi. crucification crucifixion rather um side. wound wounds at the wrist and feet. puncture marks around the scalp. Conventional skeptical mainstream. explanation for how the image was. produced falls into a few camps. Medieval painting pigmentation or. pigment application. Uhuh. Reported finding red ochre and. vermilion pigments in a gelatin gelatin.

collagen tempera binder concluding it. was painted in the 14th century. This. remains the dominant skeptical. explanation. Rubbing or uh boss relief. transfer technique. Researchers like. Joel Nickel have reproduced shroudlike. images by rubbing dry pigment iron oxide. over a cloth laid on the boss relief. sculpture. producing the same negative image. surface only characteristic acid scorch.

or chemical staining technique. dating 1988 radiocarbon test performed. independently by labs at Oxford Arizona. and Zurich dated the flax to 1260 to. 1390 CE with a 95% confidence squarely. in the medieval period. Consistent with. its documented appearance in Liry around. 1355. Under the conventional view, this. dating settles the question, it's a. medieval artifact artifact likely. produced as a devotational.

or uh pilgrimage object during the. period when relic veneration was a. booming industry. Okay. So, what they're saying is it's. made with pigment, but I thought it. wasn't made with pigment. >> Yeah. And also that there are blood. stains on it. >> Actual blood. >> Well, that's what it's supposed to be, [laughter]. >> right? But is any that's what it's.

supposed to be. But has anybody ever. done a study a. any kind of tests on that? The blood. stains are real human blood applied. before the image was formed. This is. what propos. all the above, arguing the C4 sample. came from an evil repair patch. That no. reproduction fully matches the images. properties uh superficially of the 200. nanometer 3D encoded distance. information, no brush strokes, and that. the blood stains are real human blood.

applied before the image formed. But the. mainstream conventional description. remains 14th century linen cloth with. hand produced image made in France as a. religious artifact. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The thing is people want to believe that. it's the shroud that Jesus was buried. in. Right. >> Well, people do want to believe it, but. I don't I didn't necessarily want to. believe it. Like I've had I used to not. believe it. >> Do you believe it now?

>> Definitely. Yeah. >> Why definitely? um because of the the. information by the blood doctor guy. which I'm I hate to keep calling him. that. I wish I knew who what his name. was and also my friend who was at the. Shroud analysis at Duke University and. uh also like what Father Dalton talks. about you know I mean the thing is is. that it looks pretty weird and. >> it's definitely weird. >> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I believe it, but I'm not like I can't prove that and.

I'm not going to. That's why I do. religious studies, by the way. I'm not a. theologian. I can't say yes, you must. believe this. I don't know. I I believe. it. That's what I can say. >> Dr. John Campbell. >> Yeah, I think. >> three million subscribers on YouTube. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's. him. >> Okay. But why do you I still understand. why do you believe if it turns out that. these people are all saying the truth. that it was made with it would die? >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Then I'll just. change my perception because I have new. data. I will change my theory. Like.

right now I believe it's the truth. >> But that data does exist that it's made. with dye. >> Okay. So there dye could have put on. been put on it. I believe that there is. a. >> an image on it. There is an image on it. How did that image get there? That. image. So this is the kind of thing that. things could have been done with it. It. was repaired. It was, you know, it went. through many hands. I mean, I am a. person who knows about Catholic relics. I know what happens to them. So, these.

are things that would be normal in the. life of a relic that they would be. handled sometimes with care, sometimes. with not not with care. Um, so yeah, that's my belief, Joe. Like if I get, you know, analysis from somebody like. Gary Nolan and he does this like, you. know, microscopic analysis of everything. and says, "No, Diana, sorry. This is. not, you know, I'll be Oh, that's too. bad. I really enjoyed having that belief. for 10 years.".

>> But it seems like if the radiocarbon. dating was from 1988, like, shouldn't we. do some sort of an updated analysis of. what this thing is? >> Yeah, that's right. >> To settle it. >> Totally. Yeah, I'm all for that. >> Ask a question. Where is it now? >> Where does it live? Is [laughter] it. like. >> I think it's I think honestly I think. it's in Tin, but I could be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. In Italy. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah, I could be wrong though. But I. think it is. >> Can you look at it? You can go there and. look at it. >> Yeah, I think you can. >> Yep.

>> It's in the Cathe Cathedral of St. John. the Baptist in Turan, Italy. It's been. housed there since 1578. Okay. That's. where it's always been. >> Amazing. No one's trying to steal it. Don't say that. >> Why? [laughter]. >> Well, I mean, >> would they have ever made a fake to hide. the real one? And that's like maybe. we're testing the fake one. I don't know. Got special powers or. something if you put it on. >> Plot thickens. >> Um, anything else should we talk about.

before we wrap this up? Is there. anything else we didn't cover? >> No. You have a you have an alien image. up here and he has horns. Looks like a. demon. >> Yeah, that's the mothership logo. Comedy. mothership. >> Oh, yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Just saying. [snorts]. >> I know. There's no real significance to. it, though. It's just fun. >> Yeah, of course. Of course. >> Allegedly. I see you did notice that though. It is.

weird. I get it. Especially after we're. talking. I should have showed that to. JD. I'm like, you think that's. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He may have noticed it. and chose not to say anything. >> I don't think he did. >> Okay. >> I think he probably would have brought. it up. >> So, nothing nothing else to Is there. anything else you wanted to talk about. before we wrap this up? >> I just published a book. It came out. yesterday called The Others. >> And what is it about? >> Uh, it's about stuff we've been talking. about, but it's also about religion and. about the spiritual sense and things.

like that and AI. So, it has a uh it has. a a theory of ET if if you know we're. talking about ET. It has a theory of ET. in it. >> and a couple other things. So, yeah. >> Uh what is your theory of ET? >> Well, I'm I'm uh rehousing some theory. So, I'm like the theory of uh advanced. technology. being what people are encountering when. they're encountering what they consider. to be aliens and ET. We talked a little.

bit about this last time. It was. something that I was thinking of it uh. and I just uh rehashed it. So, it's it's. there in the book in a more developed. form. Uh, if I were to just do an. elevator description of it though, uh, I. would say that Stephen Spielberg's film. AI is a really good film about ET and. what he thinks, you know, if ET were I. know he's just done disclosure day, but. a but his movie AI seems like.

>> when was that movie? >> It was a long time ago, but it's really. good if you rewatch it today. Um, at the. end I'm not going to do well people. should have seen it already, right? At. the end there are the are uh aliens and. they're basically humans have long since. gone and their technology their AI has. improved itself to the point where it's. a life form and so that would be like. the theory of. >> I think that's probably.

>> Oh wow. Hill Josnut rap science. >> I kind of remember this. >> law. >> It's about AI, but at the end it ends up. being kind of like a uh a theory of of. ET. >> Yeah. Which I kind of have a feeling. that life eventually stops being. biological and becomes digital and maybe. that's what people are encountering. >> Yeah, that's what the the others is. It. has a chapter or two chapters about. that. Yeah. All right. Well, Diana, it's.

always fascinating talking to you. I. really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. >> Uh, did you do the audio book or did you. have an actor do it? >> No, I did it. >> Thank you. >> It's always better. It really is. It's. always better when an an author actually. does the audio book. There it is. The. others UFO AI and the secret forces. guiding human destiny. And I really loved your other book too, American Cosmic. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate.

that. All right. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you for being here. Let's do it again sometime next time. You got another book. >> Okay. >> I'm sure you're going to keep writing. >> All right. >> Next time. Yeah. About [music]. Christianity probably. >> Okay. Cool. We'll do it. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. [music].