Joe Rogan Experience #2525 - Nick Bostrom

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> It's great [music] to see you again. >> Yeah, good to see you. So, um, since the last time we talked, [clears throat] we we spent a lot of. time where you were trying to explain to. me simulation theory and why the. probability of simulation theory is uh. more likely than it not being a.

simulation. >> Um, yeah, it was what, five years ago or. something? >> I think it was six or six somewhere. along those lines. >> I mean, a lot of things happened in the. world since then. >> Yes. Yes. A lot of things. I mean, um, for example, back then, I think we did. we even talk about AI. >> It probably came up a bit, but it. >> wasn't it wasn't this thing looming over. civilization, which is really kind of. fascinating when you think about the. fact that it's only been six years. And. in six years, like what a a massive jump.

in some new technology in our life. Like. >> just sort of like the internet where it. like crept up on us. we just accepted. that it's a thing but that the this this. thing has gotten massively entangled in. every aspect of society in every aspect. of people's lives in a very short period. of time. >> Yeah. I mean things are like so much is. happening now that it's kind of a. full-time job just to monitor the.

situation. >> Yeah. Um, >> and well, you're one of the things that. you're talking about is the positive. aspects of it, right? You're talking. about like that this is probably going. to be a net good for humanity to. >> hopefully. Um, I mean, I think I I take. both cases seriously, the sort of the. risk side and and the big unlock. Uh, if. we get things right, um, >> I feel like we have the potential, like. we're on a whitewater raft. We have the.

potential to get to our destination, but we also have the potential to flip. over and try to figure out how to get to. shore in freezing cold water and sort of. rebuild. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That seems about. right. Yeah. And uh Yeah. And it seems. like it's kind of speeding up a bit as. well, right? If you're sort of Yeah. >> In this field, there's like every few. weeks there's a new model being released. or something. I. >> Yes. I guess it's like if you imagine I. guess commentating some fight, right?

And that's been recorded and you're. supposed to do the voice over and the. first round is like normal speed and. then the second round is 2x and then the. third one 4x [laughter] and it's just. like a wor of legs and arms and that's a. great way to describe it. Yeah, it's. it's just so strange how quickly it. snuck up on us and that there's there's. two narratives that we hear. Uh, one the. one narrative is we're in real trouble. and that this thing is going to take. over every aspect of society and it's. essentially going to be a superior life.

force, a superior intellect that exists. amongst us that we created and we don't. think that's wise. And then there's the. other side that is saying things like. what Elon says where he's saying we're. we're going to have universal high. income. It's going to be so much. prosperity that no one's ever going to. have to toil again. There'll be no more. third world countries. There'll be no. more no more poverty. Like we can. eradicate poverty with the resources. that we have on earth and we can change. what it means to have to work like you.

just to provide yourself with food and. housing. That's all going to be easy and. free. And then everything else is going. to be you have to find a purpose in your. life. >> Yeah. >> My problem is and I love Elon but the. people who have that perspective are all. making money off AI. [laughter]. >> They all they are all invested like. heavily. Mark Andre, all these people. that have this rosy view of it, they're. all um invested heavily into it. So when. someone like you who's not necessarily.

in that camp, you know, that is more of. a an a true objective analyst of what's. going on, when you have a positive. aspect or a positive viewpoint of it, I. uh get a little more excited. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, the truth is we. don't know, right, how it will pan out. Um so um I mean I think there are these. scenarios where we unlock this you know. enormous boost both to economic. productivity but then you know across.

medicine, entertainment, environment, you know travel, all kinds of things and. like a tsunami of wealth just kind of. flows through and lifts all boats. Um. and then the idea of human work becomes. an anacronism and uh where where you. have machines that can do everything. that we can do physically and mentally. and do it much better and cheaper. Um. and so I think in those scenarios where. this really works it the transformation. is a lot deeper. I mean so that kind of.

layers to the onion. So like the most. superficial level is well they automate. your job. So what are people going to. what are they going to do? Where are. they going to work? Yeah. Well, well, that that comes a little bit deeper. First, like the most superficial level. is people just wonder where will I get. the job if the robot replaces me. >> And then the superficial level of that. conversation, I think, is well, you need. to retrain workers so they can work in. other fields. And maybe there needs to. be, I don't know, employment, insurance. whilst they are being retrained or. something like that. Um but but once you.

think through where this ultimately. leads it's you think like it's not just. a few jobs I think but it's really. everything that that humans can do to um. a good approximation um with maybe the. exception being where. the consumer has a direct preference. that the particular product or service. be done by a human like priest, prostitute and politician. [laughter]. >> Um. >> those might survive. Uh. >> well politician hopefully not hopefully.

AI can handle that all without any. corruption. >> Yeah. But somebody's got to take credit. for it. >> This is true. And code it. Yeah. It's um. >> um and so then then you get to these uh. like more profound questions I think. about meaning and purpose and like what. does a human life look like. >> right. >> at technological maturity. >> right? Uh also what is experience? Is. does experience have to be um. measurable? Like can do you have to. touch it? Do you have to measure it and.

weigh it? Or is uh virtual experience. still experience? Like if you have a. very full and enjoyable and fulfilling. virtual life, is that enough? >> You know what I mean? Like do do you. have to do everything in the material. world or can you find happiness. in a virtual world world that doesn't. currently exist but we could clearly see. the technology if it expands it's going.

to there's going to be the possibility. of experiencing a matrix type reality. Yeah, I I I think I see where you're. going. But yeah, I mean I think like. different strokes for different folks. If you imagine um a world where. presumably these virtual worlds will be. very rich. >> uh and deep and fascinating, but some. people might just like the idea of you. know climbing the real Mount Everest. rather than you know being in. >> most certainly but however there there. could come a time where people are.

locked out of regular reality like this. is worst case scenario with AI is that. you you you have your needs taken care. of but there is no purpose. There's nothing to do. There's nothing. to do because AI is taking care of all. aspects of society other than. recreation. There's nothing to do. And. then this one recreation comes along. that's not reality, but it's way more. fulfilling and exciting than any other. aspect of reality. >> And you know, an example of that would.

just be in a very minor way, your phone provides you with that sort. of an escape and it's not even that. thrilling and yet it's massively. addicting. your phone. People are on their phones. six hours a day. >> If you if we come up with a virtual. reality that's way more exciting than. regular reality, >> everyone's going to hop on in. >> Yeah. I mean, I think to some extent. this uh will maybe be the case whether.

you go the virtual path or the physical. path. I mean, you could imagine a future. where there are like resorts and people. are sort of lying in beach chairs. sipping drinks all day long and like. that's also a kind of checking out, right? Yeah. Well, that yeah, that's not. fulfilling. You know, the what the thing. about a virtual reality is you don't. have to even live within our physics. I. mean, you can fly, you can do anything. >> It's a larger space of possibilities. But either way, it could be like a. passive existence in physical reality. where you're like launching at the beach.

or climbing mountains or in video games. Like you could have like a really. intense every straining every fiber to. try to succeed in this virtual. environment or like one where you're. just kind of floating on some cloud in a. drug-like state. >> But I don't think people are going to be. interested in that because just the way. the human mind works like what kind of. video games are people attracted to? It's because a video game is essentially. a prox it's an approximation of that. You're just watching it on a screen but. you're sort of forgetting the fact that. you're watching on a screen. and you're.

just concentrating on this 3D reality. that you're running through with a. machine gun or whatever you're doing, right? That's what people are interested. in. They're not interested in these. games where you just like float over the. earth and like fly and and and just eat. bananas. No, they're they're interested. in thrilling things. And if that gets. provided in a virtual way, the amount of. people that are going to just say this. is better than regular boring life or. we're a slave to a computer. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there are there are.

both kind. >> Okay, we're back. Uh where were we? >> Um oh yeah, I was just saying that there. are also these computer games that like. provide a more passive experience where. you're like not really doing much and. it's more kind of zoning out. >> But most people aren't interested in. those. Most people are interested in. Call of Duty. They're interested in. these wild firstperson shooters where. you're running down hallways and. everything's exciting and thrill orient. some sci-fi game or, you know, >> Halflife, something like that. That's. what people are interested in.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think there are. like some some personality differences. in what path you would take there. But. either way, I think a lot of the choices. that people would make currently. depend on what they are sort of designed. to respond to by feeling good about it. So like if you enjoy one thing you. choose that if you enjoy another that in. this condition of technological maturity. if we imagine sort of a future. civilization that has developed all. possible technologies to their maximum.

>> Yeah. >> Um then amongst the affordances amongst. the things they could do is like they. wouldn't just have control over the. external environment [clears throat] um. things around them but but also their. own biology and brains. So if you were. one of these people and [clears throat]. like maybe right now the only way you. get enjoyment is by you know getting. like crazy drunk or doing sort of things. you don't really approve of maybe but. that's that's actually what sort of um. uh lights your fire. Like you could.

imagine redesigning yourself to take the. same kind of pleasure but in some kind. of contemplating the beauty of the. universe or [snorts] like appreciating. the goodness in the heart of others or. like some some more sort of noble. aspiration um like solving abstract. mathematics rather than you know playing. first person shooters. You would have a. choice like whether you would get your. >> your thrills from from one kind of. activity or the other. >> Yeah. Which brings us to the question. like what does it mean to be human? Like.

for people finding beauty and joy in you. know interesting and fascinating things. and you know how to be a better person. and all all all the different aspects of. human life that we think about when we. think about people. We think about noble. aspects of humanity. But doesn't that. have to exist in conjunction with the. worst aspects of society for us to. appreciate it? It seems like this is a. part of the human condition is that we.

have to have crime so that we can. appreciate peace. We have to have war so. we could appreciate peace. We have to. have hate so we could appreciate love. And we're never without one or the. other. They're always both together in. constant conflict. And we're always noly. hoping that the good wins out over the. bad. And this is part of the struggle of. being a human being. And if we just. completely eliminate that struggle, we're going to have to find some we're. going to have we're have we're going to. have to be a different thing because.

what we are is this very strange. territorial primate and who's endlessly. curious. And this territorial primate is. moving in a certain direction. And that. direction seems to be a better society. Seems to be over time. If you look at. statistics from thousands of years ago. to today, there's less violence. There's. better medicine. There's better. education. It's moving in a better and. better and better direction. But it's in. a struggle. That's part of why it moves.

If all of a sudden there's no struggle. and everyone is this wonderful. enlightened being, like what are we? Because we're going to be a different. thing than what we are right now. And if. you love music and if you love art and. if you love me, you know, novels and all. these different things that come out of. the human condition. Well, what what. those things come out of struggle. Those. things come out of confusion and pain. and heartbreak and and love and joy and. all that stuff all piled up together.

without that like what are we? And so if. we are moving in this direction. technologically and we're not moving as. fast biologically. do we merge because that seems to be. what I think. I think that if this thing. goes the way it continues to go the. bottleneck is going to be human biology. >> Yeah. Yeah. there there is a kind of. paradox. embedded in in our efforts to make.

progress. So like there are all these. kind of scientists and people working to. develop better technologies and. throughout the economy you know you in. some company maybe you try to figure out. how to make some process a little bit. more efficient so you can serve. customers better and all of this is. designed to solve problems right to like. if if you sort of extrapolate that to. its logical end point right you would. imagine we would have perfect technology. that can do everything solve all the. problems like presumably with AI and. automation. >> right.

>> um but then you end up in this condition. where there is kind of nothing left for. us to do. You might think and so. although it looks like we have these. strong reasons to push forward in this. direction. If you actually look at the. end point if we succeeded. to many people it will look kind of. unpalatable and like this kind of future. where you know all the problems are. solved and um nevertheless that that. does seem to be you know the direction. that we are headed in probably the. direction that we should be headed in. >> Yeah. Wouldn't that be a better goal if.

there was zero murder, zero violence, zero crime, zero lying, zero corruption, >> and human beings all worked in. coordination with each other? >> Just like in a a sense of unique sinking. and harmony, >> right? >> That would be way better. >> Um I I think but but it does like if you. actually stare at that situation, it. does have these slightly unpalatable. >> Yeah. quality because you might think it.

looks kind of bland then, right? If it's. >> not necessarily though, it's just it. looks bland if you think about what. we're experiencing now like all the the. excitement and the weirdness of. uncertainty and of not knowing, you. know, and and also the negative aspects. of our life in conjunction with the. positive aspects of our life. So, we. contrast the two of them and you really. appreciate good people after you're. around a bunch of You. know, if that doesn't but doesn't have. to be that way. This is just what we are.

dealing with. This is my position on. work, too. Because everybody in their. head is like, "What happens when AI. takes all the jobs?". >> And I'm like, "Do you have to have a. job? Isn't that a human. invention? Like, why do you have to have. a job? That seems crazy that our main. focus is on housing and food. >> and like most people are basically just. working for that. Most people that are. most people that are struggling check to. check [snorts] basically housing and.

food is their daily labor. If that's. removed, >> wouldn't enough people figure out what. to do with their time? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think so that like. yeah, there will be some transition and. discomfort in change ultimately that is. like Yeah. I I I mean I think it's like. so slavery is really bad, right? Like. but wage labor is a sort of you know. slavery light in a sense. you have to. sell a third of your working day. >> um just to get money to to pay for.

necessities. >> And the people that are trying to make. the most money make the conditions for. their employees as shitty as possible. because it costs the least amount. [laughter]. >> They don't think about it like listen. maybe we make less money but we have an. awesome experience for everybody that. works there. Nobody thinks like that. They all think like we have to make the. most money because we have shareholders. and we have a responsibility and these. people need to make more money every. quarter. So yeah, although sometimes you. do this, you compete for talent like. >> that's true too. But now but only the. top talent. That's why the CEOs get all.

the bread and all the people on the. assembly line. >> Some employees get treated well, right? What would you say? I mean. >> Jamie is a different kind of employee. Jamie is literally the co. >> Exactly. >> I mean he's the co-person on the show. >> Yeah, >> that's different. But if you know some. dude who's out there, you know, stocking. boxes for Amazon, that's different than. being the CEO. >> Yeah. So I mean I think like ultimately. that would be a huge liberation and and. kind of restore dignity like you should. be in control of your own time. It's. kind of almost the most like aside from.

your own body like your own time your. own attention. >> and we have to teach people discipline. They have to that's the thing is like if. you give people the opportunity to just. do nothing we we do you know we're. primates we we'll find a way to re. there's we're genetically sort of. designed to conserve resources. You. don't want to overuse resources for no. reason, do a bunch of because you. won't survive. You don't have enough. food. So, we're sort of designed to like. know how to be lazy. And so, we're going. to have to find things that give us.

purpose or or we'll get depressed. This. episode is brought to you by Visible. It's officially summer, folks. And boy, what a summer we are having. It feels. like one of those good oldfashioned. summers where you just want to enjoy. every moment and keep up with the. action. Your best companion this summer. Visible wireless. Visible gives you. unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot. powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. So you can make this the summer of fun. and savings. Visible is more than just a.

wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless. designed to always keep you connected. with no contract to tie you down. Switch. today at visible.com. plan start at $25. a month or get our premium Visible Plus. Pro plan and save $10 on your first. month when you use promo code Rogan. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan. features and network management details. >> Yeah. I mean, so it used to be the.

traditional idea like of British. aristocracy like that you wouldn't have. to work for a living. It was kind of an. unfortunate necessity for many people. that they had to work for their daily. bread, right? But the ideal way of being. human was that you just had money and. then you spent your time doing other. things like you know maybe you were. involved in politics or maybe you had. like an art collection or you did your. gardening or entertain friends. >> That's the best aspect of it. So but. when you think about British. aristocracy, don't you think about. fuckups? I do. I think about guys that.

are just drunk. They drive their Ferrari. into a lake and they accidentally drown. their friend and then they pay off the. cops and they get away with it. There's. that's what I think of when I think of. >> Yeah, there's that. But there were also. these kind of I don't know amateur. scientists or eccentrics who had their. weird thing and it kind of added to um. so I guess it brings out like the more. freedom somebody has the more they can. reveal their true nature like um. >> well it also depends on how they're. raised right who who are their parents. what what values did they instill in.

them when they were young did they. explain the value of hard work that it's. actually good for you and then if you. just find something you really want to. do and you concentrate on it and you. really work hard at it it's actually. very fulfilling. >> Yeah. So you could imagine for example. the education system in in this world. where we no longer need to work like. >> right. >> presumably would need to be redesigned. from from from scratch basically because. right now it's a kind of machine right. So you take children coming in kind of. on a conveyor belt. >> Yeah. >> And then some processing is done like.

sit at your desk here is this assignment. here's a grid and then they come out. with a quality label attached. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then they are meant to be. productive workers that you could put in. an office and they will um so so this it. kind of is an unfortunate. fact about the current condition that I. mean the world needs a lot of these. office workers that can do all these. tasks in the economy so like it's we. have to have. >> until it doesn't. >> until it doesn't and at that point it. would be absurd to keep doing this right. then you could imagine changing.

education so that it would be. >> uh much more about like how how can you. learn to uh live well a life of leisure. like you imagine. >> you're right stay. >> cultivating like you know the art of. conversation appreciation for art and. music. >> hobbies physical wellness like nature. >> um the ability to set your own goals and. take your own initiatives to. >> um you know to develop true friendships. with people like these are things are.

not taught in school but you could. imagine that being the curriculum like. spirituality like all kinds of. >> sure things that would then equip people. to sort of use their freedom, their. wealth, uh their free time for uh you. know some kind of you know actually um. meaningful and beautiful activities. >> for sure. For for sure preemptively we. should be kind of teaching people like. that now. Like if young people are. coming up now, the world that they're if. you're in first grade right now, 12.

years from now when you're graduating. from high school, like the world is a. totally different place. And this idea. that being a productive worker who can. sit still for eight hours a day is. that's the the best way we should teach. kids. That seems crazy if we're really. like seeing the world that you're. describing and that most people seem to. think is oncoming. >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess the the timeline is. still a little bit uncertain. So you. don't end up in a situation, right, where you sort of now you find yourself. you're 20 years old, it's time to go out.

in the world. You have no skills. The AI. revolution hasn't yet quite happened. It's kind of. >> Isn't that a liberal arts degree anyway? >> Yeah. [laughter] And and how is that. going? >> There's a lot of silly degrees that. people get right now that are useless. anyway. And they spend a tremendous. amount of time working on getting it and. then when they get out there's no jobs. for that degree. Yeah. So, so they were. a little bit too early maybe in hopping. on this. >> maybe or you know there's also traps. there there's there's things that you.

can get really excited about and do like. if you want to play professional bowling. you want to bowl professionally like. well the amount of money you're going to. make is very limited because the best. bowler in the world like what is the. best professional bowler in the world. make? >> Let's guess. I say $100,000. professional bowlers. We used to knew. know a guy Ari's friends with a guy uh. Tommy God I can't remember his last. name. Do you remember his last name. Jamie? >> He was a professional bowler but he used. to come to the comedy store and hang.

out. Really nice guy and love comedy. And. >> I imagine like maybe the very best one. makes a pretty decent living and then. like the third best like it's just. >> I bet barely barely. >> I bet the best guy probably makes maybe. 100 grand or 200 grand at the most. And. that means like the 30th guy in the. world is. >> Yeah. There you have to have another job. to pursue that. >> Well, but then in in this. >> what does he make? >> Oh, >> 200k. Oh, 400k in big season. 450. including prize money and sponsorships.

>> But then like what does. >> EJ Tucket made $43? yeah. EJ EJ. Tacket made uh $437,540. for the 2025 season with several others. between $190K and 270K in prize money. alone. Top tier. So the top tier guys. make a good living. >> But how many guys are there? You you. know what I'm saying? Uh it's probably. like a very thin sort of peak and. >> so if you choose to go into bowling it's. not like choosing to go into you know.

there's a lot of other jobs like even if. you want to be a basketball player. they're they're making a lot of money. you know if you're a really good. basketball player and you pursue that. like you could get very very rich but. how many of them get rich. >> most don't yeah but then like so maybe. maybe the the money factor would kind of. drop out of the picture. >> and it would just be what you're. interested in and then maybe even it. would. >> I mean. are endless and what other people are. interested in to some extent because. like I think part of what people are. competing for is also prestige and.

status and. >> that would be a thing right like status. would be more important it's like who's. the best at this thing like like a bunch. of friends who play golf like Jamie. plays golf all the time golfers are all. like comparing each other's scores and. they're all they're playing they're. competing in this game instead and that. they think about that more than they. think about work. >> like people who love golf they. hate work like I used to say that about. uh comedy. Back when uh I first started, one of the things that I noticed is the. guys who really got into golf, their. careers kind of stalled cuz they.

[snorts] were more excited about playing. golf than they were about writing jokes. and going on the road. And I was like, okay. So, if the average person doesn't. need food and housing anymore from. labor, if that's gone and now you just. get it. And so now you could just go do. things. We just have to teach people to. be excited about stuff. We have to teach. people the value of curiosity and. finding things that are interesting to. you and then the value of just education. for the sake of learning things because.

it's interesting just just pure. satisfaction of curiosity which is a. beautiful thing. Like that would be. great for everybody if we instead of. learning things because your teacher. tells you you have to learn it. Well, there's always going to be people that. just naturally gravitate towards. mathematics and they're really. fascinated by mathematics and there's. always going to be people that are just. naturally gravitating towards history. They're like, "How did we get here? What. is this? How did this start? Who wrote. that? Who's the first guy to figure that. out?" And that that's you're going to.

naturally go towards that and just be. educated for the sake of satisfying your. curiosity. And maybe we'll have a more. balanced society because people will. actually be able to just pursue their. interests. But we have to teach them to. do it. That's what I think is going to. be really important about young people. in the future. Teach them to actually. pursue their curiosity rather than just. squash any desires they have for novelty. and for interesting things and just be. able to work all day doing something you.

hate because that's what it means to be. an adult. >> Yeah. I think like cultivating that. would be like. the way forward in in this case, right? >> And seems very possible. It's doable. Like we know curious people and we Yeah. >> And at least to some extent. Now I think. there's probably also some differences. in how different folks are wired. Like. some people get bored very easily. Others find everything fascinating. >> Some people are like just naturally. depressed or have low mood. Others are. sort of evolving. >> Yeah. But those people that are.

naturally depressed, how much would. their life change if they were coached. at a very early age the value of. exercise? And if they started running, if they started doing yoga and they. started feeling much better and they. weren't naturally depressed anymore, and. then you changed their diet and you. start adding in vitamins and nutrients. and stop giving them processed foods and. all a sudden they feel better because. the concept even of depression, like. what does that mean? >> Well, it it varies so wildly. And when. you're talking about people that aren't. taking care of their bodies and that's.

not thought of as a primary factor in. why depression exists in the first. place, well, this is a very unscientific. approach then because we know that it. has a profound impact on human beings. So we're pretending that there's like. this oneizefititall. No, I think that should be also a part. of teaching people how to be a human. being. chase your curiosities, but also. this is why you're not feeling well and. that if you just develop this ability to. get some momentum going and just show up. at that yoga class every day, you'll. feel way better.

>> and you don't have to take a pill. >> Yeah. And I'm I think yeah uh many could. be a lot improved if they were taught to. sort of take care of their basic. physiology and. >> everyone can be improved. 100% of them. can be improved. It's a part of being a. human being. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I don't know. I think. there is also some people who might just. have you know some you know imbalance of. some neurotransmitter because of some. genetic. >> 100% or maybe they don't even have the. energy to engage in these activities. that would make them feel better but.

then I think there would be much better. medicines for uh helping. >> that's where aderall comes in let's go. give them some aderall [laughter]. >> well get them fired up. >> get them to start running I'm [snorts]. kidding but but what we're saying is all. doable we're not asking people to. breathe underwater, right? Where you're. we're saying is that there are people on. Earth that live like that. And this idea. that living just for a paycheck so that. you can cover your food and your.

housing, which we've always thought of. as being a just an undeniable part of. being a person, an adult. This is what. you have to do. You have to pay for your. food, pay for your housing. But if we we. do get to a point where the structure of. society is now run by hyper inelligent. artificial intelligence, you would wouldn't need most jobs that. people have to do that suck. And in. order to get our society to this point, if you wanted an iPhone, you needed some.

people that were at a factory somewhere. putting it all together. You needed. someone who's designing it. you needed. someone who's sitting there in the. office trying to figure out how to. market it. You needed all those jobs. But when we don't need all those jobs. anymore, then things are going to be. very interesting. And that that's what. I'm saying. We need to become a. different thing. Like it's kind of true. and kind of not. Like you you can be a. human being and live in that world, but. we're going to have to re-educate people. how to be a human being. It's it's going.

to this our our education system. specifically in this country is just. designed to make factory workers. specifically like there's a there's a. real history of it like we we know why. they made it this way. They made it this. way and they got people in really early. so they could get people set up for. jobs. They just want people to work. >> Yeah. So, so we are kind of [snorts]. currently ills suited for really um. thriving in in an environment of. abundance and for enjoying life because.

I mean both at deep biological time. scales and and during the life span of a. single individual there are all these. pressures necessities that kind of force. us to become a certain types. I mean we. talked about the education system. training people to be the kind who can. sit at the desk all day long and perform. tasks right. >> biologically. um we've. evolved drives to you know be lazy to. conserve energy to eat as much as we can. and now in the modern environment where. there are fridges everywhere like it.

causes problems metabolically. Um and in terms of enjoying life for. many people there is this hyonic. treadmill right like so you achieve. something some improvement there's a. spike of happiness and then you sort of. go back to baseline very quickly you. start to take for granted all the. blessings of life which makes it very. difficult to actually achieve a state of. um permanent happiness and felicity and. but and and it's kind of been necessary.

because we that that there needed to be. this motivation to keep striving for the. next thing. Now once you've actually. achieved all the things though then. maybe that becomes. kind of dysfunctional right like why. keep wanting to strive for the next. thing if all the things have already. been achieved at least in a certain. domain. >> and so I think as we move deeper into. this hypothesized future like where we. get all these magical technologies then. at some point probably some.

transformation of of human nature uh. would have to go along with that First. maybe cultural changes to sort of equip. people for a life of leisure. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then ultimately maybe more. profound changes to to our very biology. And so that imagine if you solve aging. and you can now live. >> for thousands of years, right? Like may. maybe the way our memory work is not. really set up for them. Maybe we would. just go stale after 200 years with our. current brains. Like we just get stuck. in a rot.

>> We don't know because we haven't lived. for 200 years. But that could easily. turn out to be the case with a human. So. then maybe at that point you would need. to sort of do something to sort of add. more um cognitive resources, more. flexibility, do some sort of psychedelic. reset or something to sort of keep the. the flexibility going for, you know, longer periods of time. I I'm glad you. said a psychedelic reset because it'd be. very funny if the main tools that we. have for navigating this are all illegal. [laughter] because I I think they might. be and specifically with psilocybin and.

DMT and and probably Iane as well. Like. if we wanted chemical tools to navigate. a new reality, those are probably the. best ones that we have available and. they're all illegal. And I think you're. right. I think if we're going to be able. to navigate this correctly, we have to. kind of change the way we uh interact. with each other, what it means to be a. person. But I I wonder how much of the. conflict that we have is a direct result.

of this inherent struggle that so many. people have. And I mean, there's a. direct correlation between extreme. poverty and extreme crime. You know, specifically in this country, if you. look at the areas of extreme poverty in. this country, they're also the areas. with extreme crime. And um I wonder how. much of that would be completely. alleviated with a complete lack of. poverty. You know, we've always assumed. that if you're going to have uh a a. functioning society that you're going to.

have slums. Why? Like why? That they. don't they don't serve any function. It's not a good thing. Well, well, it's. because some people are always going to. be making bad decisions and some people. are always going to be going down the. wrong road and crime and this and that, right? But there's still just humans and. some humans don't do that. So, wouldn't. it be better to figure out a way to not. have humans ever do that anymore? And it. seems like a way to there seems like a. way to do that. It's again not asking. people to breathe underwater. We're just. we're trying to figure out why does some.

people never engage in crime. Why do. some people live these really fulfilling. and interesting lives? Well, probably. because they were exposed to it when. they were really young. Probably because. they weren't exposed to like very bad. environments and very bad crime and very. bad poverty. And how much of that would. change if there was no more poverty? It. sounds like such a little fairy tale. childlike, oh, one day we'll have no. poverty, but that's doable. If everyone. is alive, right? Okay. That that's alive.

right now is not starving to death. That. means we figured out a way to at least. the very least get you resources so you. could feed yourself, right? That this no. matter how dysfunctional things are, all. it has to do is get ramped up a few. steps. >> I am. >> And now you have no one ever worried. about being fed, no one ever worrying. about not having a place to sleep. And. then you have to find purpose. But it. seems like there's a lot of people that. find purpose without having a a.

financial price tag attached to it. just. by what we're talking about with golf or. you could be like really into writing. books. You could write books all day. long and people are always going to want. human created fiction. People are always. going to be interested in the way other. people think about things. You you'll. find you there's plenty of things to do. There's plenty of games to play and. plenty of skills to learn. The idea that. the only reason why we work is to eat. and to not get rained on seems nuts. Um.

yeah I I it is I guess to some extent an. open question to what extent people will. always want um to read human fiction or. to. prefer the human generated outputs. It. might be just because current AI. generated writing is kind of lacking in. various ways. It's often slo and boring. But if if it became really good. >> Yeah. Then um you know maybe it would. just be like much more fun to to like.

like if a movie made by an AI might just. be so much better and richer and the. lighting is perfect and the dialogue is. sharp and it's more funny and deep and. >> certainly touches it. Then you go and. watch this. >> human produced thing and it's going like. like most people don't go and watch sort. of film school students productions. >> right but then there's that like that. movie obsession. Wasn't that movie made. like very uh inexpensively? >> And it's a huge hit, right? >> And that's part of the thrill of it is. that this guy who was like a YouTuber, right,

>> who created this film and now this movie. is a giant hit and everybody's like. super excited about it. Now that same. movie was made by AI. I wonder if it. would have that impact because it. doesn't have the human connection. So. that so that's possible that that we. keep getting interested in these things. because we sort of are really entangled. with with the human world much more than. than we are with the world of AIs. And I. mean for the same reason you might be. more interested in if if like your.

brother or friend did something you. might think ah this is interesting I. want to check that out. Of course it was. some random dude who made something. slightly better. It's like doesn't mean. >> right when you go to see your nephew. play baseball, you wouldn't really go. see little kids baseball. >> No, no, just randomly, [laughter] right? >> When your nephew gets on first base like. way to go, Bobby. >> So, I think these kind of um social. entanglements that we have like will be. a big part of what gives u structure. >> Yes. >> Um to to lives in this condition where.

where like the external constraints are. removed. I think that there is a great. value for the human mind for whatever. reason in getting better at things and. learning things. And I think that if we. could instill that in people at a young. age, I think it would be fairly easy to. get people to pursue that path. But we. have to completely revamp our education. system, which should have been done a. long time ago anyway. The idea of having. unenthusiastic, un under underpaid. people.

being any percentage of what children. encounter for most of the day when. they're in their most formative period. is insane. >> It should be a a rich, exciting, enthusiastic journey and how to be a. better person and how it's exciting to. learn things and how it's exciting to. get better at things and about how. anybody can get better at things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I hate. that every day of school. I remember. >> I hated it. Hate it. I didn't even know. that I was interested in learning. anything until I got out of school.

>> The same for me. I mean, I only. discovered like I also hated books and. everything like that for my first 15. years of life because I associated that. with school. That was the kind of school. thing. So it's only then randomly one. day I happened to uh walk into the local. library for no reason and pulled out the. book here and there and then I. discovered that there was this whole. world of science and idea and literature. and all of that like very very different. from what we were doing in school and. then then that kind of opened the gates. for me to this. >> imagine what a head start you would have.

had if you had like a different kind of. education. >> with super enthusiastic people who. really love teaching children are really. good at and that we reward them and that. it becomes a very prestigious position. to be in rather than what it is now. If. you talk to some guy and he goes, "I'm a. high school teacher." You're like, "Oh, the poor bastard. How's he feed. himself?" That's the immediately what I. think. Like, good for you that you're. doing that, but also I guarantee you. could probably be making a lot more. money and be happier doing another job.

And so, that's a terrible way to start. life off. And if we just revamp that, then you have a bunch of people that are. interacting with life in a very. different way. And instead of being. thought, I have to get a job someday. I. have to get a job after school anyway to. help my mom pay the bills because we're. struggling. So, I got to contribute to. the household even though I'm 16 now. I. can't hang out with friends. If all that. stuff's out the window and now it's. like, no, what we need to find out is. what is exciting for you? like what what.

excites your mind, your specific. personality? What is it about life. that's interesting? And let's expose you. to a bunch of different things that are. exciting and interesting that other. people find value in and let's find out. which way you gravitate because maybe. you gravitate towards chess or maybe you. gravitate towards something completely. different. Maybe you're just really into. a painting. Maybe painting just lights. you up and you like look at a canvas and. you just start around with it. and that's your thing. There's a lot of. people in this world that find that.

It's just they have to find it. themselves unfortunately. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's kind of. inspiring. And but like I think the. train doesn't stop there. So if we think. even more further into this kind of. condition of technological maturity, I. think in in addition to sort of freeing. up people, you know, like making it easy. to produce the food and the houses and. like cars that go faster and don't. pollute and all of this stuff. Like if. you think through what maybe a.

technologically mature civilization. could do like so a lot of these um like. learning for example is something that. gives people purpose but maybe you would. have the ability to sort of download. knowledge. >> um at the click of a button. So rather. than like if you want to learn advanced. mathematics now you have to study year. like for years right do like books with. exercises and apply yourself and then. eventually you sort of unlock. >> Yeah. Um but like maybe at technical. maturity they would be like okay.

understand mathematics okay I'm going to. press that button boom now I understand. mathematics. >> like the matrix I know kung fu remember. >> yeah so if you had like you know you may. be some kind of nanobots that could. infiltrate your brain and then change. the synopsis in just such a way that. you're now the same as you were before. except you have these concepts from. abstract mathematics. >> Yes. uh you know after 20 minutes or. something like that some super. intelligence works out how to change. your synopsis to this new condition. Um. and if you were inclined to do various.

things because they give you joy and. pleasure uh like you could also think. well I could do those things and get the. joy and pleasure or I could just push. this button that's like activates the. same joy and pleasure. M. >> So there would be these shortcuts to. everything. and it looks like you would have a post. instrumental condition where there would. at least at first sight seem to be no. reason to do anything for the sake of. achieving something else because there. would always be this like shorter path. to that other thing that pressing the.

button. >> Yeah. >> Um and so that's a kind of deeper form. of redundancy. It seems that all forms. of human instrumental effort would. become unmotivated. uh you could still, you know, go to the. gym uh every day and sweat for an hour. or you could just take the pill that. induces exactly the same physiological. effects and the mental effect like the. calm or whatever you feel after. >> Um so. >> or maybe even better genetically.

engineer something so you don't have to. take a pill. [snorts]. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um. >> and so so then I think you're getting. more into these like fundamental. questions of value, >> right? philosophical questions about. what ultimately is it that makes a life. good. >> um. >> and what makes a life good for a primate. because that's what we are or a. primitive version of primates I think. we're going to become something. different and if we do it through. technologically induced evolution or. biologically induced evolution we're.

still moving in a general direction just. biologically there I mean if you look at. ancient hominids and look at us we're. clearly very different so we're moving. in a general direction anyway way. And. when you look at the grays, like these. uh prototypical aliens that everybody. sees with the big heads and the skinny. bodies, what do they look like? Well, they look like if we keep going, that's. what we're going to look like. We're. going to be these genderless, sexless, muscleless little skinny things with. giant heads that communicate. telepathically, which is probably where. we're moving. And if we're moving that.

way, uh maybe we, you know, we think of. them as being an alien from another, maybe that's not maybe that's just the. general direction that primates go once. they figure out technology. They. eventually realize, well, all first of. all, the idea of having to have a male. and a female is kind of crazy, right? Why? Well, because we have to reproduce. Well, what if we don't reproduce like. that anymore? What if all reproduction. is done through engineering and there's. no more there's no more sex so there's. no more lust so there's no more jealousy.

so there's no more ego there's no more. anything and then there's a hive mind. because technology advanced to the point. where the reason why they have these big. giant heads they're they're essentially. locked into everybody all around them. all the time. >> yeah well is that what we would want. though. >> not us but I don't think we'll be us. anymore I think this idea like if you. went to chimps and you said hey dude One. day you're going to be on a plane eating. peanuts, flying over the ocean. They'd. be like, "Fuck that. I don't want to do. that. I'll just stay here where the. fruit is. You guys are nuts. Like, why.

do you want to do that?" And you'll be. uh addicted toratom and you'll be uh. watching YouTube all day long. Like, no, I don't want to do that. That doesn't. sound fun. >> We do. We do have a lot of bananas, though. [laughter]. >> Maybe. Or you have to get killed by the. other chimpanzees that want the bananas. You know, they have chimp wars. They. come in and kill each other. So I think. we're going to be something different. and I think that's inevitable anyway. If. you believe in evolution, it's. inevitable anyway that we become. something different. We're not a. finished product.

>> Yeah. No, I I think that is true. We are. not the finished product. Now the. question is the thing that we become or. that becomes is that um a result of us. choosing how we want to be or is it just. these kind of impersonal forces like. evolution selecting certain types that. might end up uh leading to outcomes that. we actually don't want. And so I guess. the hope is that we would be able to. develop along a path that preserves and.

develops uh the things that we actually. value about being human, maybe amplifies. them, then maybe adds other things. >> Um so there are many different possible. things you could develop in the future, but that we sort of select those that. actually make us better rather than just. randomly different um that we can sort. of grow into our ideals. But it's so. funny how much value we put in human. condition, how much value we put in.

meaning because it it is valuable to us. When you think about like what that. means in terms of the amount of energy. it produces, the amount of impact that. it has versus the structure of the. universe itself versus black holes and. stellar nurseries and things that are. just infinitely more spectacular than. the human condition. But to us it's. like, "Oh, what is meaning? What is. meaning? What is meaning to me?" Like, well, what is meaning to me? You is. you're a finite biological organism that.

has to find meaning because you're sort. of trumping around through this weird. world where eventually you're going to. die and you're going to leave your mark. and maybe reincarnation's real, maybe. the afterlife's real. Nobody. knows. So, you got to have meaning. But. the universe itself, like a human only. lives 100 years, how much meaning can. you have in a hundred years? >> Yeah. Yeah. Now that is I I think we. kind of die prematurely. I mean we think. of us as like first first you become. stronger and more capable for 15 20. years right.

uh then biologically you stagnate and. then. >> maybe you keep accumulating sort of. knowledge and skills for another few. decades but like just as you have. >> started to acquire like a modiccom of. wisdom like your brain starts to rot. >> Yep. And then uh everything is erased. either by Alzheimer's or death and it's. kind of okay now that's all gone the. whole lifetime of experiences. >> there's your meaning. >> all the the the memories and like the. hardearned lessons that so that seems. kind of sad and probably not the best.

way for things to be I think we would. want to extend the human lifespan so you. could continue to grow up not just kind. of reach 20 and then plateau there for. the rest of your life but what if we. could continue to develop so that like. at at 80 you were as much stronger uh. and like be able to understand more and. move better and like just have the same. capacity increase as you had like. between like zero and 20 and you just. kept going. Uh. >> well these life extension scientists. that are working on these things guys.

like David Sinclair like they believe. that that's a not just a possibility but. an inevitability. >> Yeah. Well so that that's more like I. guess preserving like pre preventing or. delaying that decay. >> Sure. which is already very good like. reversing. They're talking about. reversing. >> Yeah. But then you would go back to. being 20, right? In terms of biological. >> but um but then you have engineering. >> if if you have very long time spans. So. then you might at some point want to. continue to grow. >> Yeah. >> Like you might not want to just be stuck. at a 20-year-old human 10,000 years.

Like maybe eventually you would want to. become. >> um uh like slightly bigger in like in. terms of your ability to engage with the. world. >> Sure. Of course. And if if they can. figure out how to make people Well, there's already genetic engineering. that's being done in terms of increasing. potential intelligence and IQ. They're. already doing that, you know. And so. this was a I know I'm sure you know. about that thing that happened in China. where um this one doctor got in trouble.

because he had genetically engineered. some babies to be um inoculated to HIV. But it also at the same time gave them a. far increased potential IQ. Well, it. remains to be seen whether or not it. actually works as these guys, you know, become like 20 and 30 and we start. putting them in chess tournaments and. see if it really did make them smarter. But if the possibility of that is. already being studied, they already. understand the differences between like.

what what is what's possible, what we. understand, and that increases every. day. They understand more every day, more is possible every day. If that just. keeps going, well, you have a different. version of what the human consciousness. is. You have a different version of the. human mind. >> Yeah. Although I think the the way AI is. going, I think that's the train that's. going to reach the destination faster. >> Oh yeah. Um and then once you do have. super intelligence in machine substrate.

like then that can then unlock all kinds. of technologies including these. biological technologies or. nanotechnology or host of other things. that could then sort of bring us up if. that's how how we decide to go. >> Yeah. >> Um and uplift us into different like. either biologically enhancing us or like. uploading us into. >> but again it's that whitewater river. raft. It's like we're we're going down. this white water and we might make it. out of this or it might crash. You know,

one of the weird things about um I'm. very fascinated with uh uh ancient. civilizations and one of the weirdest. things about ancient civilizations is. when you go really really far back, a. bunch of them have these depictions of. kings that ruled for thousands of years. And it's very strange stuff because the. Egyptians and an ancient Sumere uh. there's a bunch of different depictions.

of these kings that lived lives that. were way longer than biological humans. lived. And then there's the flood myth. or the flood story. And then after the. flood, biological life decreases pretty. radically. and it seems to get back to. like a normal version of what we assume. now, which is like a hundred years. >> And one of the weird questions that. these um alternative ancient historians. have is are we missing the possibility. that there was a hyper advanced.

civilization that existed tens of. thousands of years ago and that what. we're seeing now is not a linear. progression from caveman to human being. with an iPhone in 2026. that along the. way there might have been a very high. level of sophistication and the evidence. of that might be the pyramids and some. of these other ancient structures that. are mindboggling. As much as you try to. explain them away when you're dealing. with 2,300,000. stones, some of them are cut from a.

quarry 500 miles away, 80 ton stones. that are in the seal, like perfectly cut. granite where it [snorts] looks like. they have diamond drill holes in them. It seems like there's some lost. technology. And every society has this. flood myth. And every society that has. this flood myth, especially these ones. that were very advanced somehow or. another like ancient Egypt, they have. these depictions of people that lived. way longer than people live today. And I. wonder if human beings one day will.

realize like, oh, if you keep going long. enough, a hundred years is silly. Like. people can they'll just figure out what. it is that makes people age and die. Fix. that and you'll live an insanely long. time. And then if people live an. insanely long time and their capacity. for reason and logic increases, their. capacity for intelligence increases, then you have these insane technologies. that were required to do things like. build the pyramids. And that might be. what happens. That might be a a natural.

course of progression that the first. thing we realize is 100 years is not. enough because I I I'm 58. I'm a. still. Like why am I learning every day? How come I'm getting better at being a. person every day? Well, I would have I. should have figured this out already. But you don't ever have time to figure. it out. >> You don't have time. >> There's not enough time. >> and you only get one run. Like I mean. you would think you'd want a trial run. first, right, on life and then like okay. now now I kind of know a little bit how. it works now. Now let's do it for real. >> Well that's the concept. >> It's kind of scary. I mean it's a bit. crazy that each of us is put in charge.

of a whole human life. >> right. >> like are we really like reach the level. of like if you want to run an airplane. you have to go through these. certifications and stuff right and then. maybe you can be a pilot but like for a. human life it's like every single person. like okay you have 100% dictatorial. control of this person like they're. completely hostage your whims. >> and and then that's like us so but. that's that's the way it is but yeah. having the ability to kind of um try. different things and maybe do like uh.

like have a kind of uh opportunity to do. a doover. Um if like if the life turned. out to be like a f every 50 years or. something, you have a chance to kind of. >> um. >> or maybe not even a doover, but it's the. same life, but you can do whatever you. want and you don't have to be. constrained to this idea that you only. have a certain amount of time and you. want to retire by your 65. We we might. look at that as being like a one of the. first completely archaic notions and the.

reason why people got it all wrong like. well society will be better because. people are going to live way longer and. if you think about how much smarter how. old are you? 53. >> Okay. Now, with the way you said that. was sad. [laughter]. >> I'm older than you, dog. Don't worry. about it. But if you think about how. much smarter you are at 53 than you were. at 13, you know, now imagine how much. smarter you will be at 353. or a,53. And if that actually becomes possible, if a person can live to be 100 years,

why can't they live to be 4,000 years? If they can figure out what makes people. age, if we we really can genetically. engineer human beings, that's not again. that's not breathing underwater. That's. just extending life. And if you ext. extend life and in extend intellectual. capacity and your ability to learn and. grow, holy you're you're dealing. with a 2,000-y old person. That's a. completely different kind of thing. And. that could be real someday. And that. might be also one of the things that. comes along with this new understanding.

of uh of just life in general with super. intelligent AI. >> Yeah. No, for sure. Uh fixing aging and. reversing it would be amongst the things. that a technologically mature. civilization would be able to do. >> We just have to get people out of the. idea that it's vain. Why do you want to. live forever? >> That's what they say now, right? But. when somebody actually has the therapy. and you could like here you could either. continue to get you know worse kidneys.

and more painful knees and wrinkles. >> and you start forget things or you can. take this uh this rejuvenation serum. that everybody else is using and they. are like full of energy and running. around and doing stuff like. >> do you still think it's vain? So I think. a lot of this is Stockholm syndrome that. like you are kind of faced with the. inevitability of aging and decay and. have been for thousands of years. So you. develop a kind of romantic scaffold that. reconciles you to the inevitable. >> I like it Stockholm syndrome.

>> which is is maybe adaptive but only up. until the point where there actually. might be something you could do to. escape. Right? Then if you're too stuck. in this mindset, it might sort of. prevent you from taking advantage to to. regain your freedom, >> right? >> Um, and I think we are now at that. stage. We don't yet have the therapies, but there are certainly like investments. and research and stuff we could do that. would hasten the arrival. >> Um, and I think in fact we should have. started on a big sort of, you know, Manhattan project to defeat aging like.

decades ago and maybe we would have. better therapies by now then. But for a. long time aging was not seen as a. problem only the specific diseases that. are the result of the aging. >> Yeah. >> And they they got all this funding right. like so you have like huge research. products for Alzheimer's and for heart. disease and for cancer. >> But if you look at the the main common. cause of most human disease it's scence. like you're much more likely to get any. of these when you're 80 than when you're. 20 because your cells gradually decay.

and gunk builds up. >> Arteries clog up. you know, your your. DNA mutates, your methylation pattern. gets scrambled, >> your brain. >> Um, so so rather than just trying to put. out the fires one by one after they. occur, like at some point you just need. to sort of try to to prevent like maybe. you need a bit of rain to sort of. prevent the. >> It's kind of amazing how much we've. accomplished as a society, as. civilization, when you think about the. fact that people only live to be 100. >> Kind of incredible. >> Yeah. It's.

>> kind of incredible. got [snorts] rockets. and satellites and cell phones and. >> and people only live. So it's like. everybody has to build on everybody. else's intelligence and everybody else's. understanding of the world and develop. new things and everybody has to learn. those new things. >> and each brain is so small that it can. only learn a small little specialty, right? and you need millions of them to. really although it's not entirely clear. with. >> with humans um. >> if if we had been much more longived. like the way we currently are configured. maybe we would just have gotten too.

stuck in our ways and sort of stagnated. into some sort of ultra-conservative. society where nobody's allowed to do. anything different or the old gizers. that have their way of doing things just. remain forever in charge. >> Yeah. Um so um I mean we just don't know. right like u whether whether that would. have slowed. >> progress or or accelerated it. Um but. but it is yeah it is still it is still. amazing like it's a long path from sort. of running around in the forest uh to.

sort of these look at these uh like. advanced chip technologies and the whole. global supply chain where where like. thousands of people are working to. develop just one little tool that then. feeds into the ability to make another. tool that eventually makes these leading. edge AI chips. >> where they're layering things four atoms. deep. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's it's it's. remarkable. >> It's incredible. And humans only live to. be 100. Imagine what we could accomplish. if we lived to be 3,000, you know.

>> Yeah. Um or if we were just a little. bit, you know, better at these things. Yes. Because I think we are sort of the. stupidest possible species that are. capable of developing uh advanced. technology like because as soon as we. evolved to reach that level, we started. developing it, right? And then so that's. where we are like the dumbest possible. that just barely can do this, >> right? barely can do this while we're. blowing each other up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. At the same time all over the. world. >> Blowing up people. >> So, um. >> Yeah. But maybe a lot of that frantic,

stupid, illogical behavior is because. we're so finite, like we're in a rush. that, you know, we realize we only have. a certain amount of time to get things. done. And so this sort of accentuates. the the desire to control resources and. to cement your immortality and to do. these things that people love to do, put. their name on buildings. This there's a. thing that people like to do that it's. almost like cementing their immortality. that maybe there'll be less of a desire.

to do that if people lived way longer. And then you would have to assume. if you can engineer humans to live. longer, you could probably engineer a. lot of stupidity out of us. they could. just find out why people behave like. what if you could just eliminate lying? What if there's like a a genetic. [snorts]. solution to lying? >> Well, or just a really good lie. detector. >> Yeah, but I mean, what if you you can. genetically engineer out the desire to.

lie? >> Well, I mean, if you had a perfect lie. detector, there would be no point in. lying because people would just see it. immediately, right? Um, >> well, if you could read each other's. minds, it'd be fruitless. >> Yeah. And so that that might be closer. I mean, who knows what you could do if. you sort of had like powerful AI system. trained to detect micro expression. >> We just all have to get the big gray. heads with the black eyes like the. aliens have. >> Then they read each other's minds. >> You want one of those? Well, one of the.

the weirder things that uh Bob Lazar. said, again, I don't know if you're into. this UFO stuff, but he was one of the. guys that um was a whistleblower that. said he backered crafts for the United. States government in the 1980s. They. don't have any controls in these crafts. supposedly and that they're all powered. by the minds of the beings that are. running it and that they have it's. almost like these crafts are alive and. they have some sort of a sinking with. the thing that instead of like pressing. buttons and working a joystick they just.

sync with this this creation and then. they can propel it with their minds. >> So their minds become the computer that. that moves this thing around. >> I'm I'm a bit skeptical. I haven't. looked into that so I don't. >> You should be. >> Sounds crazy. >> How could you not be? And anybody who's. not skeptical sounds crazy, but if you. think about where we are now and where. we're going to be, the possibility of. that being our future is pretty likely, right? >> I I think like that the kind of. possibility of engineering something.

like that with sufficiently advanced. technology would be there like all kinds. of stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah, basically everything that. doesn't violate some law of physics um. to a first approximation you would be. able to construct. >> And even when we say that it's like our. current understanding of physics, it's. not the understanding of physics a. society that's a million years older. than ours. >> You because that's I mean that's a blink. in the eye of the time that it took to. create what we are at right now from the. big bang. Like a million years is.

nothing. Um yeah, but even with our. current understanding of what physics. permits, that's still an enormous space. of uh designs and types of life and. being that you could imagine. instantiating. You could have uh you. know like a Dyson sphere. You've heard. of this concept, right? It's basically. like using the output of the sun for. energy generation. And you could have. like you surround the the sun by solar. panels that then powers.

>> a civilization infrastructure maybe like. a computer like imagine the like already. we have like AI compute growing at like. 240% per year or something right with. this. >> and then like imagine the kind of mind. that could run on that sized computer. Um, so people are wondering whether like. could machines be conscious and like. discussing that right now. I think like. maybe the more pertinent question is.

like are we really conscious? I think. barely [laughter]. u so you're driving on on like the road. for two and a half hours a motorist, right? and like driving past thousands. of people and homes and like mothers. with their strollers and then after does. he does he remember any of that? Like. was he even really aware of any of this. while he was driving? It's like a little. diffused sense of body and some murky. perceptions floating through uh maybe.

some confused abstract idea that we. don't really understand. That's kind of. the consciousness that can fit into this. coconut sized biological organ that we. think and we think wow we are so. conscious but like imagine this Dyson. sphere consciousness. >> right. >> or uh like a mind that maybe spans a. galaxy. I think the difference between. the sort of awareness that it could have. and our awareness might be like bigger. than the difference between our. awareness and like whatever a flea has. or something like that. Way bigger. Um.

so it could be this like transition. where we develop super intelligent minds. that for the first time is really life. waking up and becoming truly aware. >> Yeah. Um and and that we are a little. bit sort of uh [snorts] over pride proud. in in our own specialness when we think. that like we have achieved something. close to the maximum level of uh that we. are the standard by which consciousness. should be measured and and we we this.

kind of feeble confused murky glimmer. that is barely sentient at all. Um so so. that's like I think maybe the big. challenge for our uh era like giving. birth to super intelligence and then. hopefully shaping and nurturing it and. steering it so that it becomes a. positive thing both for us ourselves uh. and [clears throat] also for it itself. and also for whatever other if there are. other super beings somewhere in in the.

world or in the cosmos that it sort of. is able to get along. with us and and. contribute positively at at the cosmic. scale. Um, and that's that's a very. multifaceted challenge, but I think. that's kind of seems [snorts] to be. what's going on. >> Yeah. And it's hard for people to think. that far ahead. You know, you just think. of intelligence being something superior. to what we currently experience. But. when you're talking about.

a computer or a a. a being a conscious being that is. infinitely more powerful than anything. we can imagine, that seems to be what if. everything keeps going in the same. general direction and AI increases its. power and we figure out new ways to. power it and then because one of the. things that AI needs that's so. interesting is it needs enormous amounts. of power. And so the just these AI. centers that they're developing now,

they're de like Google's doing one where. they're developing their own nuclear. power. >> Do you want some coffee? >> Are you sure? >> Yeah. Right here. >> Let's get a little. >> I saw you reaching for your cup. >> You shouldn't be drinking out of paper. cups anyway, man. >> I don't usually do that. >> So I know I don't either, but. occasionally I do. But they're so bad. for you. >> I know. I'm usually quite conscientious. with like coming a little bit. >> up. Even when I go on the road, I've. started taking a little uh Yeti uh. coffee cup with me. So I could buy. coffee and just have them put it in. that.

>> The the inside of those things is just. lined with plastic. You're pouring hot. water into plastic and then the plastic. leeches into your coffee. >> I don't do that normally, but I figured. like for for. having a chat with you on Jan would be. worth like I guess [laughter] someund. microplastics. >> Well, thank you. Um, I I I think uh what. we're talking about is inevitable if. human beings don't blow ourselves up. If. we don't get hit with an asteroid, blow. ourselves up or a super vul volcano.

doesn't eradicate civilization. All this. stuff is it's inevitable. It's just it's. how much time does it take and how much. does it grow exponentially in power? Because we're we're talking about. computers. And then they start bringing. up quantum computing and quantum. computers ability to do calculations and. it doesn't even make sense. And so you think like well this is just. one version of that like what if what is. a quantum computing going to look like. 500 years from now? Like what what is.

computing power uh which is connected to. AI? What is what is that going to look. like 500 years from now? It's impossible. to even guess. >> Well, we can sort of see lower bounds on. what's possible. like thinking already. of just the designs we can conceive of. that we see in principle you could make. Maybe it'll take a long a lot of grind. to get there. But at least that. establishes like a lower bound of what a. technologically mature civilization. could do. And then maybe they have. additional ideas beyond that. But but.

already that is is is enough to really. unlock. Um so if you think of a a space. of possible modes of being where like a. mode of being is a way of experiencing, living, interacting. Um I think you look. around humanity and all people who have. existed in the past. A lot of different. characters, right? Um men, women, like. mean people, uh nasty people, crazy. people. But I think all of that. diversity of human experience is like a.

tiny little corner in in in this space. of possible modes of being like it's a. huge cathedral and we've been kind of. basically sitting in in the janitor's. closet. [laughter] That's like the the. exploration we've done and and the kinds. of uh modes of being, the kinds of ways. of experiencing and relating to each. other or or thinking and doing stuff. that are ultimately possible is just. this this this enormous space that we. haven't that we haven't been able to. explore. Because ultimately what we can.

currently conceive of and imagine and. experience and feel is like limited to. to our biological substrate, the human. brain. And and just as your. uh like early human ancestors from a few. million years ago that you were talking. about before, like they wouldn't really. have been able to um conceive of the. modern human condition. Not just because. I didn't think of it, but because like. the ape brain can't really they don't. like like even if you try to describe it. to them somehow like what is music, what.

is humor, what is romantic love, like. >> what what is science? What what is like. all of these things? What's literature? >> Like that just doesn't fit into. >> right. >> Right. And so presumably, I mean, you. could think right now we've achieved the. right brain size where all possible. values and interesting ideas are. accessible to us. That seems kind of. implausible. Like it seems much more. likely that just as the chimpanzees are. necessarily blind to uh like a lot of.

what can give life meaning and value and. significance probably are we too. >> Yeah. They don't [clears throat] even. have the capacity for it which is. interesting. >> They can't even consume it. >> Yeah. think of them as being so. intelligent and they are in comparison. to a lot of other animals. But I think. one of the things that they were puzzled. by when they started teaching uh. primates sign language was that they. never ask questions. >> like they don't seem to have questions. about stuff. So they just they just they. exist in an intelligent way. They can.

figure things out. They can they can do. things. They they know when the doors. left unlocked. They understand they. understand fairness, which is really. weird. Like chimps uh get very upset if. they're treated unfairly. Like if one. chimp gets something and they don't get. they get super violent. >> Uh but they don't have a lot of. questions, you know, and we're filled. with questions like so what what are we. missing. >> that the next stage of being a human. will have that we're not even. considering now because it's not a part.

of our experience. >> like what's the asking question type of. thing that we are not able to imagine. Yeah. >> And I'm at many of those types of. things. >> Yeah. And the possibilities are. literally endless. We just don't. conceive of them because we're trapped. in this territorial primate mindset. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's likely. >> Yeah. I think so, too. I think so, too. I think the the possibilities are. endless. And uh I think it's going to be. really really weird if uh that happens.

inside of our lifetime. Like because you. and I were, you know, close to the same. age, so we grew up with answering. machines. You probably remember the. first cell phones. You probably got. online and probably the like when did. you get online? Like the early. >> 96. >> Yeah, there you go. Yeah. See, I think. for me it was 94. Uh um so we uh we got. to see all this happen. If we get to see. the new version of humans in our.

lifetime, that would be like literally. bonkers. What an amazing time to be alive if you. really think about it. We're so. fortunate. Cuz if you grew up between. like 1700 and 1800, how much did. change? 1600 to,700. What? You make a. better boat? Like what's what's. different? Not a lot of different, man. Everybody kind of is the same for a. hundred years. And inside of our. lifetime from the 19 the late 1960s for. me to the early 70s for you like in in.

the amount of time that we've been alive. things have radically changed like. really really radically to the point. where it's probably the biggest shift in. uh human ingenuity and innovation that. the world has ever seen. And we're just. in the middle of it. And we might be in. the middle of the next one which like. literally allows us to see what the. world looks like a thousand years from. now because you're going to be alive. >> Yeah. I mean that's why Yeah. It is now.

this full-time job just to monitor the. situation like it's really but it is. >> how do you do that? Well, you you don't really, but if you you try. to sort of um so I think the opportunity. so it used to be um like at least in my. sphere of effect if you're doing. philosophy or something like it um. most people would think you have a kind. of unlimited time horizon. people have. been working on philosophical questions. for thousands of years and um there.

doesn't seem to be any huge urgency uh. if if if they have been unsolved for. thousands of years maybe if it takes. another 500 or so but I I always thought. of philosophy as having a deadline um. meaning that at some point we would. develop smarter than human forms of. intelligence presumably AI that could. then do the philosophy much better than. us and so there was a limited period of. time during which uh any advances um. like I could contribute to would be.

meaningful and that it would then make. sense on focusing on that subset of. philosophical questions or general. questions that we really need the answer. to now as opposed to like you know 10 20. years in the future when when somebody. else can do them better like the machine. minds so that's that's kind of been a. lens through which I have selected the. things to work on and now of course that. deadline is moving closer So um there's. less time remaining and so my focus is. increasingly drifting towards questions.

where it like that it might be relevant. to have the answer to now rather than a. year or two from now. So. >> you're almost like a cultural navigator. like a guy with a sex stent at the the. helm of a ship. looking at the constellations go I think. we're in the right direction. [laughter]. >> Yeah. But now now we're sort of moving. maybe in into close to harbor and and. you need to like. >> like pay more attention to exactly. >> how deep the rocks are. >> the rocks are and like look look scan.

around you. >> what when you think about um a timeline. for radical change what in your mind. what do you think what do what do you. think that looks like? >> Well I I mean I take short timelines. seriously with AI. I mean for what we. know it could be like like could be like. a year or two or three or four and. probably be a bit longer. Um but we're. no longer at a point where we can be. confident that we won't have super. intelligence in in just a few years like.

it could happen. Uh so. >> what is that when you say that for the. uninitiated? What do you mean by super. intelligence? >> Um well I guess. we first have AGI artificial general. intelligence. uh um AI that can do all. the stuff that we can do. Um and then. super intelligence would just be that. but can do it way better than any human. can do. Um so all technical intellectual.

common sense tasks and then you would. have robotics as well that can do all. the physical stuff not much later. Um. and um so this yeah so the timeline. remains on on on uncertain but um I I. think like it's it's not impossible that. this could happen very soon and then. once you have super intelligence then I. think from there on it it might be like. a sort of sprint to something. approximating technological maturity. because what you have super intelligence. that then designs even more smart AIs.

right using its kind of super. intelligent AI research capability and. designing better chips and all of that. [snorts] Um, so you might then have this. like intelligence explosion. where where you go from something. slightly greater than human level to. some radical super intelligence that can. then sort of invent whatever the. remaining technologies are. Maybe there. needs to be some trial and error and. experiments in the physical world that. slows things down a bit. but some. smallish number like a singledigit. number of years from super intelligence.

I think you might have something that. unlocks all these like sci-fi level. capabilities that that we've talked. about. Um at at least that's seems. relatively plausible to me. Um. seems inevitable and the my my question. is how does it how does it announce. itself? Does it send a mass text message. to the whole world? Everybody's phone. just starts like, you know, when you. have those Amber alerts and your phone. starts vibrating or when there's some.

sort of a storm warning, >> all of a sudden your phone goes off and. then it alerts you to the fact that it's. taken over. >> Well, so this I mean, so here we don't. really know. It's like this is very. confusing and we've never done this. before and so it's like very hard to. figure out how how this is going to. unfold and and maybe it's not even fixed. yet. Maybe it depends a little bit on. what on which we do and the extent to. which different actors get their stuff. together. Yeah. >> Um. >> but um.

like one I guess. one possible type of scenario is where. like things are just like um. accelerating. There are more and more of. these uh advances model releases. increasingly there is automation of the. research process in AI labs. Like. already you have coding assistants right. that are really useful to people in AI. labs they're using them to write a lot. of their software like right now you. still need humans for sort of the. research taste and judgment and.

sometimes things go like get stuck and. you need a human to kind of redirect. them but but more and more of that make. it automated and then. um you have kind of. new iterations of models being trained. at a faster and faster clip. They can do. more and more stuff. Um. they start to uh. automate increasing chunks of the. economy. So so right now a lot of coding.

is automated but like other areas as. well. Maybe they they become drop in. virtual workers that um can do. everything like a human could do with a. remote connection. uh initially and then like you have. people working on robotics. [snorts] So. that that would start to kick in and. then eventually just more and more of. the action is is run by these AI systems. >> one or more um and and they're kind of. doing it at their time scale which is. speeding up.

Um then from that point um it would. depend a lot on on whether we we have. successfully aligned these systems uh so. that they actually do what the people. created them intended or or whether they. have somehow gone off the rails. Um. >> is there's also the fear that uh America. doesn't come up with it first. This is our mostly affair in in America. Like in China, for example, it's America. that comes up with a first. Yeah. I.

mean, it's it's really just America and. China that are at the forefront of this. race, right? Russia a little bit, but. not in the same level. >> Not not Russia. >> No, not Russia. Who else is it? >> Did you see this last week? >> Ford hiring 350 engineers after AI. failed shows. failed shows human value in AI era. What. does that mean? I tried to find the only one that didn't. just did it. >> Um, >> they rehired a bunch of engineers they. fired after their AI [clears throat]. wasn't matching the quality they needed.

>> Oh, and this is Ford. That's. interesting. They probably jumped the. gun, you know. >> Yep. >> They probably fired them too quickly and. now these people that they rehire, these. people are going to like, oh, how much. time we have left? Six months before AI. figures out how to do this just as well. >> We don't know. I mean it it's it's also. possible that uh things timelines could. extend if and like. one one way that could happen is so so. the progress we've seen in the last 10.

years which has been remarkable right. it's to a substantial extent driven by. the advances the increase in compute. that is being used to train and run. these systems like it used to be that. you had a cutting edge AI system if you. were some academic like running on your. PC in your office like that that was. kind of the amount of computing power. that was applied to like doing AI stuff. and now of course you have these kind of. tens of billions of dollar data centers.

like hundreds of megawws. >> right. >> uh like just massive funding so the. chips have gotten better but also just. the amount of funding like you're just. building many more of these chips and so. as you apply more and more compute like. performance improves and that's like has. been a big driver. Now, at some point. there, like you might not be able to. keep increasing the amount of money you. spend on it because like you you can you. can go from like a $1,000 PC to like a. million dollars quite easily. And you.

can go from a million dollar to a. billion dollars. And now maybe you're. spending on the order of a trillion. dollars across the world to build data. centers per year, but you can't really. do like three orders of magnitude very. easily there. is like not a thousand. trillion dollars to spend on it. So at. some point just expenditure has to kind. of slow down. So if we haven't achieved. super intelligence by then then maybe. that would mean progress gets slower if. if the main driver is the scale up of. compute. Now it is also true that some. of the progress is driven by algorithmic.

advances like just kind of clever. algorithms. Um so that that might continue but if. one driver stalls out then that could. result in faster progress. Uh and then. of course there's a possibility that um. the the people who want to uh uh pass or. regulate AI gain enough traction to kind. of get regulatory inhibitions. How would they do that though if there. really is some sort of a Manhattan. project style race between the United. States and China? And what what other.

countries are developing AI right now. that are close? >> Well, I mean those are the. >> those are the two big ones. >> The big ones. Is it possible that. someone could sneak up on us and develop. super intelligent AI first? >> Yeah, I mean it's possible if there were. like some big algorithmic breakthrough. for example that made it a lot more. efficient to run. >> right. >> uh a similar level of capability with. less sort of AI data center. infrastructure. >> and many other countries are also trying. it's just that they are not uh as.

advanced and and and out of US and China. I'd say like US currently has the edge. What would happen if China got there. first? >> Well, I mean um part would depend on. whether they had successfully aligned. their AI. If if it's unaligned, then I. guess the same thing happens as if US AI. is unaligned. That is the future gets. shaped according to whatever values this. AI had ended up with. Um if the. alignment problem is solved then it. might make a difference because then the.

the the values would then depend on sort. of the people who owned and controlled. or governed it um would ask it to. pursue. So then then in that scenario. maybe it makes some difference um who. who. initiates it. Um, >> so right now the the big players are, you know, there's Google and there's uh. Open AI. There's all all these different. companies. When you say aligned, do they. have to all be kind of on the same page.

or like when aligned, we're not going to. be aligned if there's a bunch of. corporations that are competing to come. up with this first? So they have to be. aligned in terms of the way they're. programmed that they're valuing human. life and that they're valuing society. Like what do you mean by all? So, so I. mean just the technical challenge of if. if you are building an AI system and you. have certain things you want it to do. and certain things you don't want it to. do, >> right? >> Are you technically able to get the AI. to behave that way that you as the.

person who gets to decide how. >> well that's a separate question which is. equally important maybe but different. because that's not the technical like. you can't just go to the whiteboard and. write down some formula now you have. that's like a political question. ultimately the question of governance. >> Yes. Um so there you need you know. political organization appeals to the. best in human nature dialogues like. checks and balances whatever stuff that. might work in the political arena um to.

to hope that the governance of this that. the values to which it is aligned are. sort of benign values that hopefully. incorporates um a wide set of. stakeholders. >> Right. But that's a little isn't that a. little naive because whenever there's. any sort of a situation where something. has massive amounts of power above. others that one of the first things they. think of is what's the most money you. can generate. doing it and what is the best way to. generate the most amount of money like. that's they're going to think that way. They're not going to think like what's.

the best for the human race. Like no one. ever thinks that way. They think what is. the best way in terms of like destroying. the competition? What is the best way in. terms of extracting the most resources. out of this? Making it work for me. That's that's what that's what people. think of immediately. And what's the. best way to stop other people from. competing with us, >> right? Yeah. Well, so so that would be I. think a lot of um. um uh pressures and strains on whatever. governance mechanism exists at the time.

when super intelligence is developed. >> Right. Um, >> so is this something that the technology. is so far ahead, the the potential for. it to be so far ahead of our. understanding of what it's going to be. able to do that like making laws for. that now, it's it's going to be very. difficult to even explain to people. Like we need we need these laws and we. need these guard rails in place now. because here's what could happen. And. that that conversation is not really. happening right now. It.

>> it is happening. Um. >> but is it happening politically? >> It's starting to happen. Yeah, it's been. happening uh to an increasing extent. politically and there have been various. actions. >> Okay. Like what actions? >> Um well, so a few years ago for example, there was the uh whole expert uh export. regime imposed by the US on on chips, the most advanced chips where like China. was cut out from being able to access. the the most advanced Nvidia chips and. so forth. Um.

um and that's that's kind of been. modified but that's that was motivated. to a significant extent by trying to. preserve AI edge that the US has. >> right but that's like internationally I. mean in terms of like being able to stop. corporations. >> from having the the kind of power that. this could provide them. So, so then. there have been various uh efforts that. was like proposition in California where. there were various things um more. recently you saw the whole thing I don't.

know if you followed it with the um. mythos and fable five the anthropic. models that um where like so so mythos. has not been released this is the most. powerful model because it seems to have. significant cyber offense capabilities. um it can easily detect vulnerabilities. in software. And so, uh, Anthropic. figured that rather than immediately. making it available to everybody, maybe. it would be better to first try to make. it available to, um, providers of, um,

critical software infrastructure like. like like big banks and I'd like that to. patch up their systems. Um. um and then uh Fable 5 was a kind of. restricted version of the Mythos model. like the same underlying model but with. extra safeguards. It basically refused. anything that remotely seemed like. um you know cyber hacking programming.

biological stuff because maybe that. would be bio. So like it sort of drew a. wide circle around anything that even. remotely looked possibly dangerous and. it just refuses that. So that was. released. Um but then after like a week. or so. the administration uh imposed an. um an kind of export restriction that. prevented any non- US citizen uh from. using it. And that meant Anthropic had. to cut it up for everybody because they.

didn't have a way in real time to verify. who is a US citizen and not. >> Oh wow. >> Um so then it was like unavailable for. several weeks and and like intense. negotiations behind the scenes and. working to try to figure out because. allegedly it was possible to jailbreak. it so that it sometimes gave some little. assistance with some cyber like finding. vulnerabilities in code. Um and now. recently it just became available again. because they had reached some. understanding with with the government.

um where it was deemed sufficiently. safeguarded to to be released. Um and. now there's like efforts underway to try. to work out the framework because like. in the future you wouldn't want to do. this on an ad hoc basis like somebody. just decides this particular model for. some unspecified reason like you want to. have clear standards ideally right that. applies to everybody every company. So. there's now some industrywide effort to. try to work with the government to any. anyway. So there's like a lot of this. stuff um happening. I expect much more. uh of this going forward. It just has.

recently become like a serious issue. PE. people until recently were kind of. ignoring the whole AI thing for the most. part. Um and then there is a second wave. coming I think once so so far we haven't. really seen any big impact on the labor. market. right uh from AI. But once that starts. to hit and you get maybe, you know, high. levels of unemployment amongst white. collar workers and like imagine if you. have millions and millions of people.

with that have their university. diplomas, right? They feel a sense of. superiority and entitlement. They've. gone through the whole process. They got. their degree and now they expect a. well-paying job. Um, and then there is. no job for them. They've got nothing to. do all day long. what what they but but. complain about AI. Uh so you got to have. all these well educated people who feel. resentful and are going to say every. possible bad thing about AI that could. be said all day long and mobilize the. very powerful political constituency.

that will emerge from that that's not. even yet happened but that will kind of. add to all of these other. >> um grievances that that people point to. with AI. So I think there's going to be. kind of significant political pressures. uh for doing something about AI. Um. >> isn't the the key is getting ahead of it. though. So like how how can people find. how how how can we see the. vulnerabilities in advance and recognize.

like when this is going to like if there. is going to be a tipping point and a. bunch of white collar workers are going. to be out of work and there's going to. get to a point where we realize like. this is coming. This is like 3 weeks. from now. what do we do? Like what do. they do? Like what? >> Yeah. So that's not clear to me at. least. I mean a lot of people think uh. they have different views about what. should be done on course, but. >> I it's like very hard to have an [sighs]. >> it's such a complex strategic. I mean. I've been thinking about this for like. three decades maybe. Uh and I still feel.

extremely unsure even which direction is. kind of up and which is down. >> Yeah. Um, I don't think it would be. possible right now to sort of figure out. a detailed, you know, perfect regulatory. scheme or system of laws. Like there's. so many unknowns. I think we'd need to. sort of watch this closely as it happens. and be ready to react quickly to issues. that come up. Um, and hope that relevant. people are like highly competent and.

well motivated and are trying their. best. And I I it's then on the margin. maybe we can do things that kind of are. constructive and increases the chances. that it will be for the good. Um. if and when I have some clear insight as. to some overall big directional push uh. I I will let you know. Um. but even basic questions like for. example do we want more government. involvement or less government.

involvement? Do we want faster progress. in AI or slower progress in AI? Um, I don't know. Uh, is is not not. completely obvious to me. Well, I think. it's eventually going to get to wherever. it's going to get either way. Having it. slower, I I I don't I don't know if. that's really going to help us. I I. think almost like we have to crash and. then we have to figure out how to. rebuild and pick up the pieces. I don't.

think we're going to be intelligent or. have enough foresight to recognize where. all these flaws and where where all. these problems are going to ultimately. be. I think they're just going to have. to happen and then people are going to. have to adjust. That's what I think. Yeah. So I'm not advocating an AI pass. by contrast to a lot of some of my. colleagues and friends and stuff like I. I I could see though some scenario in. which it would be helpful at some point. to have a temporary slowdown of you know.

a few months maybe or half a year or a. year like if you imagine you know there. are different companies countries maybe. racing to get there first. >> Yeah. And then eventually somebody. figures out they basically have the. system in place. They just need to uh. like amp up like run it for longer. They. can sort of see that it will become. super intolerant. They hope it's. aligned. It might be very helpful in. that situation to have a few extra. months just to sort of double check all. your safeguards and rather than.

immediately cranking all the knobs up to. 11, like maybe sort of do it a little. bit incrementally, watch what happens, study it, then crank it up a little bit. more. And I just think you might gain. some extra safety if you have a few. extra months there. Like the pressures. on these people in the lab. >> if it's all going to happen over a week. like it's just going to be this is the. first time we ever do this hugely. complex thing. It has to be right. We. never get a second chance. just. >> being able to like even just being able. to sleep properly for like between your. work sessions and like having.

>> you know a weekend to mold things over. like just that kind of human humans. don't really operate on on. well on in in these like super short. timelines. I think a short if you could. be sure that the pause would in fact be. limited and short and then it would be. lifted. I think that could be quite. useful to have at if it could also be. timed to be at the right moment and well. implemented. >> But wouldn't the problem be espionage. first of all? >> That's one one issue with it.

>> Yeah. if they realize if somebody. realized hey they're about 3 days away. from this and then China bribes a bunch. of people and you know people take off. and move to. >> yeah there there are various uh. >> there are various downsides to pausing. um so one one is that um like there are. competitors who just even without. espionage are catching up. >> um another is it's not as if the world. is safe without AI Right.

>> Um, >> good point. >> Other like whether like the natural. hazards I think they are very small like. super volcanoes and stuff like that on. the relevant time scales. >> until they're not. >> Well, I mean we've survived for like. hundreds of thousands of years, right? >> And we're almost wiped out entirely. 70,000 years ago. >> Yeah. Well, that's a long time ago. >> Is it though? >> Well, >> not if it happens tomorrow. >> If it Well, but like if if something. hasn't done us in in that long a time, probably it's not going to do us in. within the next 10 years. Boy, you're. more optimistic than me.

>> Well, it's just based on the actual. empirics of these natural catastrophes. By contrast, I would say there are other. hazards that are not low. Uh I mean, we. have rapid advances in synthetic. biology. Some some of them driven you. are enabled maybe even by already. um um AI progress that has already taken. place like that can start to assist with. this and and more just happening. independently. you get increasing risks. from syn synthetic biology. We still. have the nuclear arsenals, right? Kind.

of existing. um we think have gotten a little bit. complacent about the risks of nuclear. war. Um. um and um and various other things as. well. So I think there's like a. background level of existential risk. that humanity faces in the absence of. super intolerance that probably is. growing as well. So you don't want to. wait so long that you don't even get the. chance to roll the dice with AI because. you destroyed yourself before even.

gotten that would kind of be sad. >> Um and then um then also I mean I think. there's like some risk if you set up a. pause infrastructure that what's. initially meant to be a temporary thing. becomes permanent. Like they say there's. nothing more permanent like than a. temporary government program. If you set. up the infrastructure to actually. control this ideally at the global. scale, right? It's meant to be for six. months, like what what happens after six. months, nobody can still prove that the.

AI will be safe. So you have all these. people now whose job it is to to. regulate it and like maybe they so it. could it could become kind of frozen in. and become permanent. Um and and then. also. the delay benefits of this. So if you. think what like 65 million people die. every year, um that's that's a lot of. human lives. Um. that's like one 911 every 25 minutes.

just kind of boom like. >> that's a way to look at it. Um and so. there is a certain urgency if there is. something that somehow could have a. chance to to to to fix this like all the. suffering that is happening in the world. like aside from the people dying like. all the people who are bererieved right. who lost their loved one and then all. the disease that led up to that dying. Uh right. And then all the non disease. related all the the horrible poverty and.

like the suicidal depression and the. animals in the animal factories that are. like spending the there's just like this. >> I think moral urgency that if there is a. hope that getting AI right could fix. this then you don't want to wait. unnecessarily long because every day is. just this massive horror. >> right. >> um so I think there are many reasons for. why you wouldn't want unnecessary or. excessive uh uh delays in developing AI, but but there is a trade-off because if.

we can make more progress on AI safety. and alignment and get our act together a. little bit before we take the plunge, like that's also worth quite a lot. It's uh it it's certainly exciting. because the possibilities are right in. front of us and they're kind of endless. and it seems like they're right in front. of us. It seems like to in my mind it. seems like we're like 24 months away. from something really insane. I I think. >> could could be could be could be could. be 48 months. It could be I mean we. don't we don't.

>> Yeah, it could be. Yeah. Who knows? But. there's something happening really. quickly. You know, I talked to Elon. about Grock. He said it's uh it shocks. us like every couple weeks that we're. like, how is it doing this? How is it so. fast? How is it advancing so quickly? And um one day cat's going to be out of. the bag and there's not going to be any. way to stop it. Like if the power went. out right now, if there was some sort of. a massive solar flare that killed our. power grids and all computer hard drives.

got fried and we had to restart [snorts]. from now, like. we would have to rebuild society, right? But if we get to the point where this. thing understands what would cause that, how to prevent that, how to make sure. that never happens, much better power. supply, much better um allocation of. resources, much better batteries, much. better uh redundant data systems where. you never have to worry about.

hard drives crashing and you never have. to worry about any of these problems. like any information you have now will. be secure and then understanding of. natural disasters will actually get. drill into this volcano and it never. goes off. Like there's gonna be a few. things that they're going to figure out. through AI that's going to prevent a lot. of the things that are probably wiped. out enormous swast of I mean imagine if. we could just actually see asteroids. coming all of them and know how to. divert them instantaneously. where we have a bunch of ideas right now.

on how to do it right like coding them. >> yeah with something changes the. aerodynamics of them and. >> I think that one would be relatively. easy I mean even we could figure out to. do that I think. >> and there's also detonating There's a. bunch of different crazy ideas, but. imagine if AI is like, "Actually, you. could just do this, you know, and then. you put a shield over the Earth and you. never have to worry about it ever." The. shield's powered by the sun, so you have. ultimate power and you never have to. worry about being hit by a Manhattan. sized asteroid.

>> Yeah. I think the trickier ones might be. ones that are more internal to. civilization. If you have some process. that's either like a worldwide process. with different humans and corporations. and governments or or like an internal. process in the AI like on the one hand. you want to be able to continue to. develop new ideas new ways of doing. things. So you need to experiment and. try new things. But then there's also. the risk of you just keep trying new.

ideas like that eventually you you get. stuck on some idea that actually proves. really harmful or dangerous to you. >> Um and that you then sort of derail. internally through your own matic or. internal evolutionary development. So. >> um. >> how to sort of grow up safely in this. world where you have unlocked all kinds. of new technological capabilities even. if you're easily able to protect.

yourself against external threats like. volcanoes and asteroids and stuff, right? There might still be processes. arising from within this global. civilization just as we might invent new. technologies that are dangerous. We. might invent new like drugs that are. super addictive. Once you invent them, you try them and then you're addicted, you never want to. >> Yeah. Oh, there could be other like some. some crazy ideology that once it takes. hold. >> I'm glad you brought that upd.

>> Um, yeah. And I mean I think all that's. in fact I would add that to the list of. I've mentioned nuclear and bio. terrorist risk as like background. existential risks like another is like. some form of insanity like collective. insanity. I I feel our our. civilizational sanity already is kind of.

a little bit precarious. I think we're. just kind of maybe barely holding. ourselves together. Uh-huh. >> Um, and it's amazing how well the world. functions despite how crazy people are. and how much they loathe their opponents. and so forth. And we still managed to. somehow get it to work. >> There's also manipulation of the. zeitgeist that's clearly being done by. bots. So, you've got a bunch of people. online that are having arguments on. Twitter and they're not even talking to. people. There's a bunch of ideas that.

are being pushed out on Twitter and a. lot of these social media platforms. It's not even human beings tweeting. about it. It's not It's not It's There's. There's algorithms. There's AI. There's. people that are hired to do it. There's. people that are working for certain. organizations that are hired to muddy up. the waters, gaslight people, create. problems, have people argue with each. other. And so it's like if AI recognizes. how easy it is to manipulate people, do. whatever it wants, that's a fear as.

well. >> Um yeah. So whenever you change the. basic parameters of sort of the. social cultural political discourse. um new dynamics will emerge. and we don't have the kind of social. science that is able to predict what. happens if you change some of these. knobs. So we've seen in the past like. you invent let's go all the way back. like somebody invents writing. [snorts]. Okay. So that turns out to have had a.

huge effect uh not just on people. writing like literature and stuff but. like on political systems. So you could. now have states that could keep tax. records, right? So you could have larger. political units with writing and then. they can hire standing armies. and now you have like large scale war. You have social stratification. You. could have like the the ruler of a large. area could have, you know, enormous. wealth and you could have a soldier cast. that like protects against internal and. external. So like just the way that.

human societies are politically. organized changes as a result of this. change in the rules of communication. when you can have written texts, right? And then you have the printing press. again with like like 100 years of. religious wars in in Europe like. reformation and all of this stuff is. possibly and then like forms of. democracy later on also coming out of. this and the scientific revolution. Um. then you have like mass media in the. last century with like radio and stuff.

and you have kind of demagogues that. take advantage of being able to. simultaneously talk to millions of. people because that was never possible. before. Right. Right? >> Could have some charismatic kind of guy. who's like rallies up the whole nation. and then new ideologies become matically. fit in that situation that might never. have if if it were people writing kind. of. letters to the editor. Like it's a kind. of a different type of idea that works. there than if you're giving a kind of. stump speech that goes out to millions. simultaneously. And now with social.

media of course we have another one of. these and you do see that starting to. change culture in different ways. >> Yeah. And and now with AI being the next. wave of this, that will also change. You. have like bots, you have new ways of. finding information. You have maybe AIS. that can themselves be super persuaders. That will also change presumably in some. unknown an unknowable way the the way. that like social discourse pans out. And. for any one of these, I guess it could. turn out to be a lot better. We could. become more informed having AI advisors.

I think that's a fairly likely scenario. But it's also possible somehow the. dynamics shape out in a different way. and we kind of go collectively [snorts]. insane in some way. Um. >> back to the white water raft. >> Um white to backwater raft. Yes. And it. all becomes kind of totalitarian or we. sort of fragment into like political. waring tribes or we become kind of. completely unhinged. Every one of us. becomes convinced of their own little. naughty theory that they then like their. AI or feed just serves them more.

material to kind of fuel their. conviction. that there different ways in. which this could go badly but um. >> but don't you think even if that happens. ultimately the progress of AI won't stop. and so. the the again I keep going back to this. thing but I think this is really what it. is is we have to change like what it. means to be a person all those things. are only problems if people stay what we. are now which is territorial primates. with desire to possess material goods.

for some strange reason even though. we're a finite life form. If all that. changes, if we change what it means to. be a person, which seems inevitable, >> then then it won't matter. Then if we. all like if we if there's no if we could. figure out a way to literally engineer. out all of the issues that humans have. with greed and violence and all the all. the different things that trouble. society if the desire for that is no.

longer a part of being a person. which is that's doable that's that seems. like if we're going to continue to. evolve past you know Australiathecus to. homo sapien 2026. If they if we continue the same amount. of time in the future, we probably won't. be like that anymore. The best versions. of people aren't people that want to. steal your house and steal your land and. shoot you and take your resources. That's the best people are the people. that contribute and they're interesting.

and they they make you excited to be. around them and you like it. that if. that keeps going on and that and if that. is aided by technology, if we recognize. that there's actual patterns of human. thinking and behavior that can be. changed and that if we all agree to. subscribe to this algorithm to connect. to this computer program, connect to. this external device or maybe not even. external, maybe maybe it's internal that. allows us to communicate with each other.

telepathically. Like all that all that. changes and then it doesn't matter. It. it doesn't matter if there's any guard. rails for AI or not because we're not. the same thing anymore. Like all the. problem the worry that we have about AI, the worry we have about power. manipulation and the the ability to. influence people, all that kind of goes. away if people don't behave the way they. behave currently. >> Mhm. Well, I guess here is one. difference with your like white water.

rafting metaphor that so the one is in. in that metaphor, it's kind of we need. to hang on like there's a risk we could. smash ourselves on the rock. But if we. don't do that, then there's kind of one. way we end up right downstream. >> We get up in a nice lake. >> Yeah. But I think in reality what might. also be the case that in addition to. trying to not smash ourselves on the. rock, there might be places where the. choices we make affect the ultimate. destination, >> right? >> Um. >> go left or go right.

>> Yeah. Or which stream maybe a more Yeah. >> multi and where like if if you stare in. one direction, you you might end up in. in one place ultimately in some sort of. strange posthuman world. Then maybe it's. really beautiful and people have the. chance to grow into their true self and. we love each other and are creative and. take initiatives and go a different way. Maybe you have a paperclipip maximizing. AI or maybe that just everything is. paperclip. So going a third way maybe. you have like a totalitarian system with.

like a small elite on top and everybody. else. >> Yeah. >> Um or just. >> sci-fi. >> kind of Yeah. Then there are many more. possibilities and and maybe some that. kind of we would think would look kind. of good if we chose now, but then in. reality they have some hidden flaw that. we didn't think of. So if we chose. those, it would sort of be a mistake. >> And then maybe others that don't look. that appealing to us now, if you just. presented them in a brochure to you, like but then actually if you thought. hard about it, maybe you would realize. that actually would be a really nice.

place to live. uh because like in in in. the current world there are places that. are nice to visit that are interesting. but then those are not necessarily the. same places we would want to live and. raise a kid right so there's right. >> there are like novels and movies that. are really fun to watch. >> but you wouldn't want to live in those. worlds so there's a difference between. the kind of what makes for the good. interesting story and the place where. you actually want to spend the rest of. your life. >> and so I think there would be possibly a. lot of opportunities to make foolish. choices uh or unwise choices or.

conflicts that sort of thwarts the the. process and makes us end up not not just. that we go extinct before we reach. there, but that the deer that we reach. might depend on the level of wisdom and. kindness that we have during the. process. >> And there's always unintended. consequences with every solution that we. try to find for any problem that we. have. There's always some new thing that. comes up. We're like, "Oh, we didn't see. that coming." I mean, it's certainly. when whenever we're dealing with nature, like whenever they've uh brought in. invasive species to handle other.

invasive species, it always a giant. disaster, you know. >> Yeah. >> Always. And there's always unintended. consequences like, oh, now you have a. 100red million frogs. Who was telling us. about that? Was it Ali Sadik that was. telling us about the frogs? Who. >> about they brought in? What did they. bring in? forget what the invasive species was. They brought in uh this one species to. kill another species. And the problem. they didn't realize that that species.

had been was like coyotes or I forget it. was. >> in Guam. >> It was Guam. What was it? What did they. get rid of? >> Whatever it was, they got rid of this. thing that had been killing the frogs. So then they had to, right? Was it. toads? So they had millions of these. things that were like all over the. highway. So you drive on them, you just. squash them everywhere you go because. there was nothing controlling the. population of these things anymore. It's. like unintended consequences of, you.

know, because we're. >> we're very shortsighted in even in our. ability to be contemplative about what. the possibility of the future is when. you're dealing with such an open-ended. thing like AI, super general. intelligence that can maybe make better. versions of itself. Like what? Who the. hell knows what that means? That's. >> Are we making a god? Because it seems. like if it keeps going and that if it. makes better versions of itself, it's. ultimately going to get to the point. where it could do anything, which is. exactly what a god is. It can make.

universes, you know. What if the ultimate end of. this is a big bang button that some. scientist invents? [laughter]. >> Yeah. So, so we are a little bit like. Yeah. It's I don't know the different. analogies one might reach for but I mean. I guess like. uh like say you're on a plane and then. like the the pilot has passed out or had. a heart attack or something and now it's. like we passengers. >> who somehow have to I don't know figure. out how to do the uh.

>> run the controls uh we not really I mean. we we you have to still try to make your. best right but then add to that that all. the passengers are fighting amongst each. other each one thinks they are the guy. who should control the the like they're. all convinced that they are the superior. person to try to land the plane. >> So in addition to trying to figure out. how the controls work, they are like. actually having a big fist fight in the. cockpit as well and somebody's like. dragging somebody else away. And there. like the the kind of monk tribe that is.

the current state of the world here and. we're trying to shepherd like this ship. of humanity into um utopia. It's. >> Yeah, >> it's um Yeah, it's it's it's an. interesting. >> it's Doctor Strange love on steroids. >> But uh but that's it. We might only have. to like get it. So at at some point we. would should be able to hand over like. um the reins like once you have a. sufficiently good AI like we maybe get.

assistance from that point on. I think. it's the first thing that it's going to. take over is government. He's going to. realize how unbelievably inefficient. the government is at doing almost. everything and how much how much of the. money that gets allocated is fraud and. waste. If you allow AI to sort through. that and develop much more efficient. pathways to controlling and. >> some people would not want to see that. particular. >> Exactly. That's going to be a problem.

But if we get to the point where there's. some sort of um some sort of a hive mind. possibility, some sort of a I mean, one. of the things that Elon said that I. thought was really fascinating, he said, "You're going to be able to talk without. words.". Well, if we're able to talk without. words, like, does that eventually get to. the point we could read minds? Could. could we is is is. thought and is communication no longer. verbal? It's no longer sounds. So, right.

now we associate sounds that I'm making. where you know what words I'm using, what I'm referencing, and we get a a. certain understanding of what each other. is trying to say. But what if that's. just clunky and that's silly? And what. if uh instead of uh a scroll that you. leave in a cave somewhere, now you have. a movie that you can watch like. something much more engrossing and much. more much more powerful. And that this. is what human communication becomes. It.

doesn't it and maybe this is why the. grays don't have mouths. We move away. from sounds because right now what we. figured out is like sort of like u duct. tape. We've we we're communicating. We. kind of patched it up. We figured out. some thing. We're just going to use. noises we make. Well, we have different. noises here than the people that live on. this island. They have totally different. noises. I don't know what the. they're saying. And then you have people. on the other side of the world. Totally. different noises. So, Tower of Babel. type situation, right? Where we really. can't communicate with each other unless.

we have translators. But if we get to. the point where that's not how humans. communicate, we communicate purely. through thought and intention and. understanding and that it's no longer. based on language. It's no longer based. on this is a transistor. This is a. coffee mug. Instead, it's a complete. understanding of each individual thing. that we're discussing. everything. You. know what it is, you understand what it. is without it having to have a a noise. associated with it.

>> Yeah. I mean, I guess the cyber security. implications are significant if you're. giving direct access to other people to. transmit. >> signals to your brain in a high. bandwidth way that is not just. >> words kind of that it's almost like you. heard them even though there's no sound. in your ear. But if it's like actually. directly kind of interfacing in a high. bandwidth way with your neural network. >> Also, encryption's out the window. If we. no longer have encryption, if if we get. to the point where.

>> Why is that out of the window? >> Because if computing gets to the point. where the bottleneck is like, think. about money, right? What what is money. right now? Money is all ones and zero. somewhere essentially, right? It's all. bank accounts. It's like it's like we're. not on a gold standard anymore. So what. if that bottleneck it's it's an. information bottleneck like someone's. preventing you from going to going into. these places and getting these ones and. zeros and transferring it to your place.

But what if that is all if what if. computing power gets to the point with. AI gets to the point where that those. boundaries are nonsense now all all. encryption is instantaneously decoded. I. think probably. uh cryptography is uh defense dominant. in the limit. I think like if you. imagine um mature technology, I think it. would be possible to encrypt. I mean if. nothing else you could use like a. one-time pad which would enable you to.

encrypt things in a way that is. unbreakable. >> really. >> Um I feel like that's going to be a. bottleneck. I feel and I think once we. start reading each other's minds that. might be the first thing to go. >> Well, >> it'll be like the ultimate social. >> That's where you really probably would. want encryption, right? If you're going. to transmit thoughts to me through some. like you don't you don't want sort of. have a. >> Oh, you don't want some like. constantly in your head, your next door. neighbor just poking you and proddding. you. But you was you would hope that. along with this technology becomes like.

a a a general state of enlightenment. that the human beings achieve where. that's no longer the kind of behavior. that we indulge in the which behavior do. we no longer. >> annoying each other each other stealing. each other's money that kind of stuff. >> well but then yeah I guess it goes back. to this question of the the utopian. condition like if you. >> and I it so there are a lot of things. that individually are bad. um like lying, stealing, cheating, greed, uh excessive pride, like all.

kinds of disease, stubbing your knee is. bad. Like [clears throat]. yet if you sort of imagine removing all. of those things then that changes the. human condition quite profoundly and to. some people would feel kind of maybe or. appear flavorless or. >> sort of um if there is no no. [clears throat] tension, no conflict, no. >> no no bruised ego, no like. >> but it might still be good but but it. does force us to sort of I think it.

would be a rather fundamentally. different thing that we would be. metamorphosing. If if we went all the way in that. direction, which ultimately might be. right, but it it it would require us to. kind of find new ways of realizing. whatever values are imperfectly realized. in the current world through conflict. and competition and pain. Like some. people get maybe motivation from painful. failure. >> Yeah. And so if you get rid of the pain. from failure, then you'd need some other. motivation like some other thing that.

drives you on which they could be like. maybe it's just a love of achievement. and you feel kind of neutral or just. less happy when you fail, but you would. still need something that kind of. preserves. um whatever structure it is that we. think is valuable in the current human. condition. Unless you go all the way to. sort of radical hedonism and and think. the future is best if we were all just. kind of floating in some kind of drug. induced euphoria as as blobs that. experienced immense pleasure but had no. real texture in our experiences, didn't.

engage in activities and didn't interact. with each other. Like there's like a. philosophical view where ultimately. pleasure is the only thing that matters. and the minimization of suffering. So if. if that's your axiology then it's. relatively easy to see then how at. technological maturity you would achieve. a sort of optimal state. But if you have. a more complex value system where maybe. pleasure is one good thing maybe really. important but there are also other. things like appreciating beauty you know.

true friendship courage achievement and. ideally you'd want a future that. includes all of these things. then you. need to do a little bit more sort of. design work to figure out a way to. combine them all in a in a in a. meaningful way. >> But this all comes back to our idea of. human meaning. What what's important to. humans? Our our finite 100year lifespan. adoption of this concept of meaning. But. the black hole doesn't give a about. human meaning. And it's going to be. around a lot longer than us. And it's.

got a lot more power than us. And it's. doing a lot more change than us. And we. want to think that we're more important. than black holes. >> Yeah. I mean, >> we are us. >> I think we are. I mean, >> to us. >> Yeah. To us. And uh. >> but to the universe, is it is human. meaning that important to the universe. or is it just sort of a placeholder for. like what we'll ultimately become? Is it. is it motivate us to continue to. progress? >> Well, so I think like at technological.

maturity there are certainly forms of. purpose that you could have. you could. have artificial purpose. Um, so this is. when you basically set yourself a goal. for the sake of having the goal and then. doing the activity that so you know. maybe maybe you set yourself the goal. I'm going to get this little white ball. into a sequence of 18 holes. and not only that but in order to. achieve this goal it's part of the goal. that I'm only use allowed to use this. very inconvenient method. I I can hit.

the ball with a club, right? I can't. Much easier to just pick it up and put. it in each hole successively, but that. doesn't count as being successful. >> So, you could make up this goal. pretty arbitrary. Now, once you have. that goal, then you now have a reason to. try hard, to concentrate, to perfect. your swing, and you can play golf. So, the goal enables you to to do this. activity of golf playing, which maybe. you find fun or worthwhile or. meaningful. Um the reason it meaningful.

is because it's difficult to do. >> Yeah. Uh um and so the future would. consist, I think, if we succeed in a lot. of game playing. Uh and you could. certainly have these artificial purposes. that you set yourself these goals that. then give you a reason to engage in an. activity. >> Now we're back in the world of HalfLife. Now we're back in a video game. Now. we're we're also in the simulation. >> This is going to be your artificial. goal. And and you could imagine I think. maybe we shouldn't think of video games.

here, but it could be much like games we. can't even imagine. It could be like. societywide games that last for 20 years. that involve all kinds of multimodal. things and little groups that work. together to like. >> come up with new ways of creatively. And. so in in that broad sense of kind of. things we do for their own sake, I think. game playing could be and and it's like. a lot of what children do. They're kind. of for curiosity and spend a lot of the. time playing games and we might all be.

like kids again. What might be in. shorter supply is sort of natural. purpose um like purposes. um which we don't just arbitrarily make. up in order to have a purpose but that. are sort of given to us. So, so, so. right now in the world you might say um. you know making a living is not just an. arbitrary purpose because there are real. consequences if you fail like maybe. eventually you get kicked out from your. flat and then you know it's really cold. and you get rained on and like horrible.

things happen. So like similarly if if. you like don't brush your teeth. eventually you will have tooth decay and. there will be real consequences. So. these there are like various things that. you have reason to do uh because there. are real negative consequences if you. fail to do them. And a lot of our lives. is structured by these natural purposes. at a societal level there's a whole. bunch of things we need to do together. right and in this future world maybe. there would be many fewer of those. natural purposes because for any one of. them you could just ask the AI to sort.

it out. >> Yeah. >> And so the artificial purposes would be. a larger chunk. It's interesting to. think are there any natural purposes. that would survive to technological. maturity like any things that we still. have sort of instrumental reasons that. that we need to do ourselves. Um and I think there might be a few um. but they are more subtle. that might not. strike us currently as very important, but. um it's one of those things where. like you know that during the day if.

you're outside you can't see the stars, right? Uh it's not because they're not. there like it's because like there's so. much light that they are sort of blotted. out. But at at night. um when the stronger light from the sun. is absent, you can see these fainter. lights. I think similarly. uh in in this future there might be on. once these sort of urgent screaming. moral values of immediately pressing. practical concern go away you might be. able to perceive a whole constellation. of these more subtle values that we are.

blind to currently. >> So take the value of take the value of. like I don't know like some like. honoring uh your forebears. So right now it doesn't seem I mean. maybe it's nice sometimes to remember. your your past parents or some. historical hero who did something good. that benefited humanity right but it's. like not the main thing that you're like. maybe that would be a bigger thing if. that was nothing else you needed to do. maybe you could actually spend serious. time um or spiritual quests like even.

for people who are very religious a lot. of their actual waking hours are spent. on random other things doing their. laundry like driving to work, like the. all kinds of stuff. Like if all of that. was automated, you could imagine. spending more time on trying to align. yourself, orient yourself to this higher. being and trying to be in communication. with them. Like maybe aesthetic values. like there are maybe some things that. would just be kind of nice and cool if. if the world were like that. We don't.

really have time to worry so much about. them now. But if there was nothing else. on the agenda, like coming together in. in a way that upholds some tradition in. a beautiful original way that still is. true to the original spirit together. with other people and enacting some. ceremony. Like maybe those things would. start to fill more of our time in in. conjunction with this game playing. Um. um and there might be many other uh of. these kind of subtler values that that. would start to shape what people were.

doing. >> Yeah. And ultimately, who knows? [laughter]. >> Yes. It's it's very interesting and it's very. open-ended and we really don't know. what's going to happen, but we're. probably going to see it. We're probably. going to see the strangest. thing that humans have ever had a. possibility to experience. >> Yeah. And in the end, I guess it's uh. trustful. >> Yeah. Well, uh I mean these the.

conversations are always fascinating. And who knows, let's let's do another. one in a few years and see how off we. are. >> If you if come back in four years. >> All right. Let's if we have four years. If we have 4 years, if you can, if. you're allowed to travel in 4 years, come back and let's see how wrong we. were. [laughter]. >> Yeah, make an update. >> Well, thank you very much. I really. appreciate you coming in here. It's. great to see you again. >> Fun. >> It's always fun. Okay. All right. Think. about it, kids. Bye, everybody. [music].

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