Joe Rogan Experience #2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> YEP. All right. >> [music]. >> Very nice to meet you, man. >> You too. Thanks for. >> Thank you. And thanks for doing this. work because you want to talk about a. subject that's confused so many people. Is the sun good for you? Is the sun. killing you? Why does it give you. vitamin D if it's bad for you? Why Why. do people get skin cancer if it's good. for you?

>> Yeah, it's it's super complicated and. the messaging has not sort of admitted. that and that was yeah, a big impetus. for the book. >> When What was your opinion of sun. exposure before you started writing. this? >> So, I had you know, I had inherited the. conventional wisdom from the. institutions that it was really bad. At. the same time, I'll admit that my. instincts uh. were that. maybe it wasn't as bad as they were. leading me to believe cuz whenever I was. in the sun, I felt good and I live in.

Vermont. At the by the time winter was. reaching like month six, I felt bad, right? Right. So, I was like there's. more here than than we're being told. >> Yeah, that's that was my wife's opinion. She's like sun can't be bad. It always. feels good when you go out there. I'm. like I don't know. It's a little more complicated than. that, but that is a an instinct. Like it. feels great when you're in the sun. Like. >> [sighs]. >> It's like your body wants it. >> Your body wants it. I mean, we now know. that it literally triggers the release. of opiates in the brain. Sunlight. So,

yeah, your body wants it and your body. rewards you when you get it. >> So, what is the issue? Well, well, let's. go back to the beginning. So, you had. this idea that sun exposure is probably. giving people cancer and sunscreen is. good. You need to wear sunscreen, stay. out of the sun. This is what. So, when you started going into the. research, what made you shift your. opinion? >> So, it really started for me like seven. or eight years ago. Um I was on this. like science journalism fellowship. so I. was just doing research. And some of. those studies hit, the one about opiate.

release in the brain, other studies showing that when light. hits skin, um. cognition actually improves. Like your. metabolism. cranks up a little bit when if when the. body feels sunlight coming in. Um and I thought, that's interesting. Um. that's all good stuff. Then I came. across a couple other studies that. seemed to indicate that uh sunlight. could lower blood pressure, which was. really interesting. So then, you know, I. still had the sense sunlight bad, right?

So then I remember just like Googling. like, so how much does sunlight like. shorten your lifespan? Um and like the punchline is sunlight. seems to extend your lifespan. So when I. hit that, I was like, why are we not. hearing this? So that was the beginning. >> And so then So what is the problem? Like. what what is the issue with sunlight? Like when you think about skin cancer, what are the confounding factors that. lead to skin cancer? Are we completely. aware of that?

>> You know, it's more complicated than we. thought. So sunlight does. uh increase your risk of skin cancer, but. it depending on the type of skin cancer. you're talking about, it's not. necessarily a like a linear. relationship. So, yes, in general, too much sun increases your risk of skin. cancer. But yeah, the question is, what. are the confounding factors? How. important is skin cancer compared to. these other things? If sunlight reduces. your risk of other diseases, how does. that weigh against. the risk of skin cancer? Um so,

it it's not the type of thing that can, you know, be done in a 30-second PSA. >> Right. So, so sun cancer that does cause skin. cancer, or excuse me, sun exposure that. does cause skin cancer, what what is. causing it? Why is it happening? >> So, uh ultraviolet light, which is the. most energy-intense part of the solar. spectrum. Um when those photons of light. hit [snorts] your skin, they go inside, right? We We absorb all wavelengths of.

light to a greater or lesser degree. And that super high-energy ultraviolet. light, if it hits a DNA molecule, it can. mess up the DNA molecule, and then that. can lead to mutations and skin cancer. Um then it can also indirectly cause. skin cancer um by creating uh what are. called reactive oxygen species, which. are free radicals, basically. So, it. energizes these um atoms that start to. steal electrons from other atoms and.

cause a little chain reaction, which is. what a free radical is. Um so, ultraviolet light can increase your free. radicals, and it can directly damage. DNA. So, that's why it could cause skin. cancer. So, it was basically that. learning that one fact back in like the. '40s and '50s um that made scientists. start to say, "Uh-oh, light, skin cancer, maybe we should. think about how much sun we're getting.". >> But this wasn't universally accepted, right? There were some people that even.

back then thought that sun exposure was. very healthy for you. Like, when did we. figure out that sun causes the body to. produce vitamin D? >> Yeah, that was an important part, and. it's a big part of the story, I think, because that was really back in the '20s. that we figured that out. And then even. a little earlier, we realized that um. sunlight could prevent rickets. >> Rickets? >> Yeah, so rickets is a like soft bone. disease. Like, if you. you don't have get enough um calcium in. your bones when you're a kid, when. you're a baby, you get soft bones, you.

get rickets. Really bad disease. Um and. it was in the Industrial Revolution kids. starting getting rickets started getting. rickets. Um farm kids never got rickets. Then suddenly kids are working. factories, they're living in cities that. are choked with coal coal smog. They're living in tenement buildings, they're never seeing the sun, and they. all start getting rickets. Late late. 1800s. >> Does nutrition a factor in that? >> Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D. At. first they thought maybe it was vitamin. A, um but it turned out it was That was.

how vitamin D was discovered. Was um. some doctors figured out that. it could solve kid rickets in kids. And. then they figured out that if sun hit. skin, that's how we made vitamin D. Then they figured out. >> figure that out? >> Um they tested uh. they did some tests on uh. um. dogs. Actually, one of the guys who. figured it out, he um he was pretty He. had a hunch that that's what it was. Like they noticed that kids in the. country wouldn't get rickets and kids in. the city did get rickets. So they're.

like, "I wonder if it's sunlight." So then a. guy took dogs and and this was in I. think Scotland stuck them in a um. They they actually thought it was. dietary. He stuck them inside in this. like little like warehouse and fed them. oatmeal, which is what everyone in. Scotland ate at the time. And the dogs got rickets. And he thought it was the oatmeal. He's. like, "Okay, so something about diet.". But then he he got lucky cuz he had.

deprived the dogs of sunlight. And. that's why they got rickets. Um so then eventually they realized that. um. light hitting. cholesterol molecules in the skin. actually converts the molecules to. vitamin D. So vitamin D is like. downstream of cholesterol, but it takes. that same ultraviolet light that can. screw up your DNA. It actually breaks a bond in the. cholesterol molecule, which allows it to it gives it some.

movement, and it flips around into a new. form that's vitamin D. So once they figure that out, um then. they're like, [clears throat]. "Sun's really good for you." So we had. this era in like the '20s, '30s, and. into the 40s when everyone thought sun. would cure everything. And they like went after it hard. >> Really? >> Yeah, like they parents would send their. kids up into the Alps in like the 20s to. institutes for heliotherapy. Kids would. ski around in their underwear, take. classes in their underwear. There's. awesome photos from this this era. Um.

like the instructors are in their. underwear in the mountains outside in. Switzerland teaching the kids uh and. everyone looks really healthy, right? So, that there's kind of like this idea. that you couldn't get too much light. So, people are literally burning. themselves on purpose for health. >> Is that the issue? Is burning a giant. part of the issue? >> Yeah, so to give it away now it looks. like. for melanoma, which is the most. dangerous type of skin cancer, it's. associated with burning strongly but not.

with like. gentle, moderate, everyday sun exposure. >> So, um how much of a factor is skin. type? Like uh people that are pale or. have freckles and red hair, blond hair. Like how much how much of a factor is. that in skin cancer? And can they. mitigate that by like gentle. slow exposure? Like a little bit of. here, a little bit there, and slowly. build up. >> Yeah, huge. Like skin type is kind of. everything. People have really dark skin.

basically don't get sun-induced skin. cancer, almost never. Um and. the uh you know, the authorities. don't tend to talk about that cuz they. want things to be they want to have like. these one-size-fits-all recommendations. But those recommendations to basically. always avoid the sun. are written for the super fair people, especially if you have red hair, orange. freckles. Then um you actually have a. mutation in your melanin gene that makes.

you super susceptible to skin cancer. from sunlight. So, if you've got if if. got that phenotype, lots of moles, red. hair, uh freckles, you do have to be really careful. And. you can't you you can only do so much. Like you're not going to tan that much. anyway. Your melanin's just different. Everybody else, yeah, you're you're much less. susceptible and you can tan. and you know, you can make more melanin. pretty easily through tanning. >> I wonder.

what if any effect Have you ever heard. of that I don't I can't remember the. name of the peptide, but there's a. peptide that people are taking now that. causes their body to generate melanin. and they get really dark. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's really weird. >> Yeah, and I don't know what's going on. there exactly. It seems like that. peptide is maybe making you There's. these things called photosensitizers. that make your skin super sens- like. like you just absorb solar radiation.

really well then, but. not necessarily in a good way. And that can make you make tons of. melanin to try to compensate. So, I. wonder that peptide might be triggering. um a like melanin as a compensation. mechanism. for extra protection from sunlight. Or. maybe it's just making melanin happen. like independently of sunlight. >> Did you put it in the perplexity? All. right, here it is. Um mela- melanoton. melanotan. melanotan melanotan synthetic peptide uh.

analog of the naturally occurring. hormone. a melanocyte. stimulating hormone stimulates the. body's melanocytes to produce melanin. resulting in a dark tan. It's largely. unreg- unreg- Excuse [clears throat] me, unregulated, illegal in many regions for. cosmetic purposes. and carry significant health risks. What's the risks? Uh it's not approved by the FDA uh for. cosmetic use and unregulated market. means purity Okay, but that's. unregulated.

Notable risks include dermatological. issues, rapid and uneven darkening of. existing moles, the emergence of new. moles, and hyperpigmentation. concerns that could mask or accelerate. the development of melanoma. Uh what is this? Potentially damaging. erections. What? Or car. Oh, that's right. This apparently gives. people raging erections. >> Why? >> Prolonged, painful, and potentially. damaging. damaging. Imagine you get a erection.

that goes so hard you redline the penis. >> [laughter]. >> Medical and dermatological organizations. strongly advise against the use of mel-. melanotan melanotan because it's. unapproved. There are no clinically. established safe dosages. >> Well, weird because that so alpha MSH, the thing that it is mimicking is that's. how your body makes melanin. That's how. your body's supposed to do it. >> You got to see the before and afters cuz. they're kind of bonkers.

Um I've seen some people get super The. problem is it's Instagram and you never. know what's real. That's that guy got a. little tan. Let's see if there's any. Okay, look how pale that See, but that's. not How do we know if that's real? >> like there's like a light on him and. then he's like. >> Right. And then he's in a [ __ ] dark closet. in the last picture. >> before and after photos I've seen. >> Is there a That one right there. The low. the No, the one Yeah, that one. Look at. that guy. >> [laughter]. >> Well, you know, but it's a look. It's an.

interesting look. >> He injected himself with unregulated. tanning peptide melanotan melanotan two. Click on that. >> Seems like a a joke a little bit. >> No, no. This guy This is the guy that I. saw online. This guy's He's the test. rabbit. This dude went hard. >> Did he get a an erection, too? >> Yeah, he died from that. I [laughter]. don't know. So, his before and afters. So, let's see what is. He just Okay.

Yeah, he just got darker and darker and. darker. But, I wonder if like if I understand. that it's unregulated, but if it was. regulated and this is something they're. trying to work with right now with. peptides and make them See, that's it's. the photo's dark, though. I mean, that that's like a shitty iPhone. 1 camera. That's crazy. If that's like this is. nuts. There's something going on there. Like. You know what it looks like? It looks. like those bodybuilder guys who use that.

that. that ink that dye on their skin to make. themselves darker so their muscles pop. out more. So, here's here's better. Tanning log. photos. These are better photos. That's. crazy. But, I wonder if that offers skin. protection. >> It would definitely offer skin I mean, if it is if it's if it's melanin, um. it's definitely I mean, that guy can can. probably. be outside all day. >> Yeah, so that's the question. Is that. available to someone who's pale? Like and if someone is pale Uh.

see if you can find an example of. someone who's pale who took it. Cuz you would think like, oh, well, maybe that maybe just we need to do. studies and figure out what the dosage. is and figure out how to activate that. aspect of it. >> Uh melanin clearly protects you from. from skin cancer. Like if you if you. have super dark skin, like, you know, African ancestry you're blocking Like. your melanin is absorbing like 97, 98%. of the UV rays. It's super effective.

>> But, didn't Bob Marley die from skin. cancer? >> He did. Um. >> That's pretty crazy. >> Okay, this is one. Wow. >> Looks like the same person. Hard to tell without the face. >> Same moles. Yeah, >> [clears throat]. >> it looks like the same mole. That looks. pretty good. >> But, I would just also wouldn't if you. were trying to sell some of this stuff. uh in maybe nefarious ways, this would. be an easy one to market. >> Mhm. >> Tough. And you know, >> Definitely. Look, this is part of the. unregulated market problem.

Is we don't know. And also, you know, you're getting 99% bro science on this. stuff. >> [laughter]. >> You know, like. >> What screams bro science? >> It screams it from the top of the hills. >> [laughter]. >> What legitimate scientist is out there. injecting himself with Melanotan? >> But the other thing is, if you do it. naturally, right? If you just get a. little sun every day and slowly build. up, you're not just making melanin, you're also increasing your body's. damage repair system. Like you have all.

these like nucleotide excision repair, things that fix your DNA and fix cells. that have gotten screwed up. And that. will also ramp up. Um every day you And. it's not just um not just sunlight. Like. exercise, same thing. Like anything that. that like stresses the body a little. bit. >> Mhm. >> hormesis, right? So, all those things. are going to cause your damage repair. system to crank up and be ready. So, you could probably want those to like. the melanin and the damage repair to to.

like go up together. >> Right. So, you would want to if if let's. say studies were done, let's say we. found what the effective and safe dose. is and and how to administer it, you. would want to do it along with sun. exposure slowly to try to ramp up your. body's ability. >> Added note on this, uh this happened 14. years ago. >> Wow. >> Which is strange. Here's some of the. side effects he said, but he also said. he was pretty much impervious to UV at. this point. >> Increased libido. Didn't see that one.

much either. He said he didn't get it. Wait, okay. Sides are decreased. appetite, very mild nausea, more for. some, none for me. Decreased libido. increased libido. He said he didn't see. that one much either. Some get facial. flushing like a niacin dose, never got. that either. And the most strange things. that it feels really good to stretch, like when you first wake up. Interesting. Huh. Um, did you do it for the skin coloring? Yes, I did it for the skin coloring. I'm. pretty much impervious to UV at this.

point. I have faded about 25% since. returning from Florida January 35th. We'll be dosing again probably in March. Is this guy still alive? >> was going to say. That's my question. >> 14 years is what is that? 20. >> Click on that link where his his. profile. Wow. Let's see if homeboy is alive. >> Let's see where this takes us. It's all. posts on Reddit. >> Is this Reddit? >> Uh, see a year ago he's commenting, "I. never did it subtle.". >> Okay, so a year ago he's still alive or. someone has taken over his account.

>> [laughter]. >> In theory, you could use an old-school. quartz tanning lamp. Okay, so you could. tan with it. >> a weird Reddit there, so we got to stop. looking. >> Why? >> I don't I mean, this is not for the. show, but he's in a weird. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. >> We were just afraid to go that way. >> That's a problem. Well, only crazy people are willing to. try something like that. Like, do you. remember that there was a guy, God, I. think it was on Oprah or one of those. shows, where he was uh taking. was it.

silver? >> Yeah, colloidal silver. >> That's right, colloidal silver and his. whole his skin turned blue permanently, like a Smurf. >> Poor guy. >> Yeah. >> And he wound up dying. Yeah. >> Why and how did it kill him? Did he. >> know if it killed him, but he's I. believe he died though. >> [laughter]. >> That's homeboy. Not good. Yeah. >> That's that's just not a good look. >> You would think you'd start turning a. little blue and then you go, "Hey, maybe. I need to back off this colloidal. silver.". >> What if the Smurf dies?

>> Yeah. [laughter]. I mean, what the [ __ ] dude? That guy, I mean, maybe he could have. gotten some Lanatone and even that out. And just been a nice chocolate. You know, like a bluish chocolate. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, he looks delicious. I'll say. that. >> Yeah, this is. Argyria? Ar-. Argyria. Argyria, the rare disease that. turns people blue. Caused by a build-up of silver in the. body, which discolors the skin. Wow.

2013. He died from unrelated causes. Whatever that means. I mean, anybody's taking that much. colloidal silver, you probably make a. lot of other mistakes. >> Yeah, like. >> You're a risky dude. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, there's so many options. >> This episode is brought to you by Ketone. IQ. Here's something cool. Ketone IQ is. giving five lucky listeners the chance. to win custom autograph gloves signed by. Jon "Bones" Jones, the goat, the.

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>> Um back to Bob Marley. >> Yes. >> He did die of skin cancer, and that. confuses a lot of people. So, he had he. had melanoma on his toe. Um. so, and that was a kind. >> uh mel- melanoma that's not caused by. the sun. And everybody gets it no matter. like, you know, what race you are. Everybody gets it at this the same rate, which is it's quite uncommon. Um. They know it's not caused by um the sun. But. it it like it it complicates things for. people cuz people like, "I got melanoma.

on my toe?" And and they think it's from. the sun. And they're like, "How did that. happen, right?" Uh like what's a. melanoma doing down there? But so. it does not all melanomas are are. caused by the sun. They There's um. you know, most probably are, but it gets. really weird with melanoma. Um. it's associated with. burning with like intermittent sun. exposure. Like, you work in an office. all year and then you go to Cancun and. get fried. >> Mhm.

>> That's a pretty good recipe for. melanoma. Um. history of sunburns also that will. double your risk. Chronic exposure where you have an. outdoor job every day, lower than. average risk of melanoma. >> Really? >> Yeah, so it gets weird. >> Like landscapers or. >> Landscapers have Outdoor workers have. fewer have a lower incidence of melanoma. than office workers. >> [laughter]. >> Wow. >> don't hear that. >> No. No. I mean, I was I was looking at. Instagram the other day and some poor.

guy had this. I don't know what happened to his face, but he had some sort of skin cancer and. they had to take a graft and his it was. on his nose. So, it was like a flap of. skin was like almost covering over his. eye. And you know, his message was wear. sunscreen. This is what happened to me. >> Well, so I mean, yeah. So, I don't want. to downplay skin cancer cuz it sucks if. when you get it if it's, you know, they. have to cut off a hunk of your ear or. something. That definitely sucks. Even. if it's not life-threatening, sucks.

>> Yeah. >> So. But and so yeah, like but that's. generally from overexposure like. >> Burning. >> Burning. Every All the experts I've. spoken with said don't burn, right? >> But burning is the one that people. always say that it's not just burning, it's burning causes damage that starts. to appear years later. >> Yeah, and there's there's dialing in on. that more and more. It can start. like burns during childhood is actually. the highest association for melanoma. >> Really?

>> when you're a kid, so that we're all. screwed. >> Oh, that sucks. That sucks cuz I [ __ ]. cooked myself as a kid. >> Same here. I grew up in Florida. Fried, you know. >> Well, when I was a kid in the '70s and. '80s, you know, you wanted to get a tan. well you know, especially when I lived. in Boston. It was cold as [ __ ] in the. winter. When it got warm, you know, you're a Vermont guy. >> Yeah. >> You got out there you're like, ah, put. baby oil on. We fried. >> Totally. I I was just looking at some of. those Johnson's baby oil ads from like. the '60s [laughter]. and '70s. Oh my god. Yeah. >> Yeah, it was basically a cooking lube.

It was Yeah, it just helped helped you. cook better. >> But you remember you know George. Hamilton like the actor? >> Yeah. >> Mr. Tan. He had like. >> Yeah. >> He was all about that. I I just the. other day I was like, how's he doing? 87 and and ridiculously healthy right. now. >> Really? >> Yeah, he's going strong. >> Yeah, I met that guy. He was He did an. episode of NewsRadio once. Yeah, he was tan as [ __ ] Yeah, that. That was his thing. >> That was his thing. It became yeah, what. he was known for and still is still. going. >> That's So he's still tan?

>> Yeah, you should see him. He looks. great. >> Pull out a photo of George Hamilton. >> I mean great for an 87-year-old. >> Yeah. Look at him, still tan. How does he. >> And shiny. >> What a weird thing to be known for. >> [laughter]. >> He's the guy who gets tan. You know what I'm saying? I mean, try to. remember a a role that he played. >> That's true. I I think he was Dracula in. some bad 1970s like comedy. Look at. that. That's a tan right there. >> Right. So, how is he getting it though? Like, I remember when I was a kid in.

Boston, a lot of people use tanning. beds, especially in the wintertime. >> And they still do. Like, that those are. actually like on the rise. And they do. they seem to raise [clears throat] your. risk of melanoma for sure. There you go. That's how he did it. >> Ah, look, he's got a reflector tan. thing. So, he's just out there getting. sunlight all the time. And he didn't look bad. That's. you know, that that's a that's a weird. one, right? >> He claims he's never had skin skin. cancer, I think. >> Well, he probably was doing it so often.

that his body was prepared for it, right? Look at that photo of him with. that lady in the corner. Yeah, look at. that. That's nuts. >> [laughter]. >> See, that's the thing. I think, um. like. if you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these. compounds whose entire job is to make. sure your cells don't turn cancerous. Because, you know, living things have been working on this. for. 500 million years. Like, they've been.

getting hammered by the sun every day, and they got to deal with it. >> Right. >> So, it's when it seems like when your. skin is totally unprepared, and you. shock it with a like a massive dose that. it that it's not ready for it. Uh then then you're in trouble. Like, that's the kind of thing that triggers. trouble. >> Was there any pushback on this research? Like, when you when you first started. examining this and realizing that sun. exposure has a lot of benefits, were. were any dermatologists saying, "Hey,

this is dangerous information. You. shouldn't say this.". >> Hell yeah. Yeah, I've been denounced. multiple times by the American Academy. of Dermatology. Like, officially. They. sent an official letter when I write an. article, and they say, "Nobody should be getting any sun. exposure.". >> That's their opinion? No one should be. getting any sun exposure, regardless of. to benefits, the vitamin D, the. >> No sun exposure without protection from. either sunscreen or, you know, clothing. >> Wow. >> And if if that makes you vitamin D.

deficient, take a pill. So, that's what. that's what needs to change cuz those. pills haven't panned out in tests. They. don't work like natural D does for. whatever reason. >> Really? >> Yeah, they don't work at all. >> What do you mean? >> So, everyone thought, like, back in like the. '80s, uh '90s, everyone started noticing. scientists started noticing that uh. people who naturally had lower amounts. of vitamin D in their blood had um. higher rates of all like the classic. chronic diseases. So, they started.

thinking, "Okay, vitamin D it's like a. magic uh pill almost. It'll cure It'll. reduce everyone's risk of all these. diseases if we raise their rates of D.". So, they started recommending vitamin D. pills, which I think are still like the. number one supplement in the world. >> I'd take it. >> Um. so, then they did all these clinical. trials to prove that it would help. Huge huge clinical trials, tens of. thousands of people, follow-ups that. went up went for many years. None of them showed a benefit. >> No benefit in terms of your immune.

response? >> No benefit for any condition. >> Now, did they take vitamin D along with. vitamin K2 and with magnesium because. that's what's recommended? >> So, I don't I I mean, there are a bunch. of different. >> Apparently, vitamin D by itself is not. effective that you need vitamin D with. K2 and magnesium. And I think there. might be another one. Let's see. Put. that into Perplexity, please. See what it says, like, "What are the. benefits of vitamin D and what should it. be taken with?" Cuz I think magnesium.

and K2 are the big ones. And that. together they have a sort of a. synergistic effect. >> Yeah, that. that could be. Like, I yeah, I'd be. curious. >> Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself the. body has a problem absorbing it. It's. like There's a lot of things like that. Like, zinc is like that. You need an. ionophore to absorb zinc, so you take it. with quercetin. >> Yeah. Well, one thing like D, you know, the. way you naturally comes into the skin. and it comes in with a whole bunch of. related compounds. >> Right. >> And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of.

a synergistic effect when it's combined. with the right things. >> But D from the sun has always been known. as the best way to get it. Like the best. way to get vitamin D, the most. effective, the healthiest way is through. sun exposure. >> Yeah, like that's that's how the design. is supposed to work. >> Perplexity says vitamin D helps your. body absorb calcium, build strong bones. and teeth, support muscles and nerves, and plays a key role in immune function. It's best absorbed when taken with a. meal or a snack that contains some fat. and often paired with calcium for bone. health. Um What So, please put in what are the.

benefits of vitamin D taken with K2 and. magnesium? See if it says that. Cuz this is what my doctor, who is a. vitamin specialist, recommends. Benefits when taken with K2 and. magnesium. Dum dum dum. Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin. K2 and magnesium can make each of them.

work more effectively, especially for. bones and heart, as long as the doses. are appropriate for you. The trio mainly. improves how your body handles calcium. Interesting. D helps you absorb it, magnesium helps activate D, and K2 helps. send calcium into bones instead of. arteries. D increases calcium absorption from your. gut and supports bone, muscle, and. immune function. Magnesium required to. activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can. blunt vitamin D's effect and also. directly support bone structure and many.

enzymes. K2 activates proteins that move. calcium into bones and teeth and keep it. out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health. Potential benefits of the combo, better. bone support, heart and artery. protection, more efficient vitamin D use. Okay. So, the doctor is correct. So, maybe that's. the problem is that these people were. taking it with low magnesium,

low calcium, didn't have K2. >> Yeah, I thought like I'd like I'd be. curious if. like if. there was an effect on. um disease incidence for the. combination. I don't I don't know cuz. the D on its own, yeah, it didn't show. any any effect. But, sun exposure. >> Let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken. on its own have any health benefits? Let's see what it says to that. Cuz I. didn't I'd never heard that that D on. its own was not effective at all. I've.

just heard that it was minimally. effective. That you had to take it with. other. >> It seems like it only helps people who. had. who are really deficient. Like if you're. if you're super low like below like 16. nanograms per milliliter, um. then probably it's a good idea. But, like for people who already had like at. least 20 nanograms per milliliter, it. didn't seem to have any of these. benefits that they're seeing in people. who naturally had high rates through sun. exposure. >> It says, "Yes, vitamin D on its own has. several well-proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and.

immunity.". >> Just like a general answer. >> Huh. Bone strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate vitamin. >> I didn't add on sorry. >> What's that? >> I didn't I missed the word on taken on. it. >> On its own. >> That's why why the answer was weird. >> So, let's see. Yes, there's clear proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and. correcting deficiency. So, >> Yeah, so that's going to be for people. who have super low levels. >> Mhm. Preventing rickets, there it is.

>> Yeah, but so they they had thought that. it might reduce incidence of all these. other diseases based on what they're. seeing for people who naturally had high. levels through sun exposure. And it didn't. Um. >> Wait a minute, people who had high. levels through sun exposure. >> Yeah, cuz like your your natural level. of vitamin D is sort of a direct like. meter of how much sun you're getting. >> this is natural level. You're not. talking about supplementation at all. >> Right. Right. So that was why like. people who had high levels of D without. supplementation have lower rates of all.

like every disease you can think of. Right. Um so the hope was that raising. everyone's D to those levels would would. have the same effect. Uh and it didn't. Like New England Journal Medicine did a. actually did a editorial in 2022 saying. stop prescribing D, it doesn't work. Um which is fun. >> God, that seems incorrect though. Cuz if. you're taking it with magnesium and K2, it seems that they do work. synergistically and there seems to be. proven health benefits. That one of the.

problems I think is like I I I think. people generally. want to avoid recommending. supplementation for some reason. >> Mhm. >> It's kind of a weird thing. Like they. want to dismiss it. Like I had a doctor. once that told me, "Don't bother taking. vitamins. Just uh eat a balanced diet.". And I was like, "Look at you.". The guy looked like [ __ ]. >> look as good as you, right? >> terrible. I was like. >> Doctors, yeah, I'm amazed how poor.

what poor health they generally like. seem to. >> I I can't take it I mean it's so hard to. take seriously a guy with a gut when. little just he looked terrible. And he. was telling me that I just need a. healthy diet. And I'm like, "Okay, I do. have a healthy diet, but also I feel. different when I take vitamins and my. blood work. reflects that.". >> Yeah, I noticed that when I was I was I. started going to all the conferences of. the sun researchers and they're all in. like the basements of hotels and But get.

guys all look are as pasty as it gets. Like do you none of you guys like you. know practice what you preach really? >> How strange is it that human beings with. all of our knowledge with I mean. obviously there's much more to learn. We're still confused about how we. interact with our environment. >> Yeah, absolutely. 100%. >> With sun which seems to be like. it's there. It's it's everywhere. It's. like you're always in the sun in normal. in in the normal world environment where. human outside of cities and all that.

stuff. That's it seems like we would. have an understanding of what happens. when you're interacting with sun. >> Yeah, and light period. Like light of. all kinds. Like it seems like there's. the sense in biology that light didn't. matter. It's like just ephemeral. Um. which you know the quantum physicist 100. years ago. understood that light and matter are. just like two halves of the same coin, right? And that light totally affects. the behavior of molecules. We're made of. molecules. Light's going to matter. So I. actually think like that's where I.

eventually with the book. I was like. we need to think about our light diets. and our like light scapes that we're you. know surrounding ourselves with like. more seriously than we have. >> Well, it seems like your work is based. entirely on the data. So what did these. dermatologists have to say about the. data if they're denouncing you and. they're saying that you know this guy. should not be listened to. The things. you're saying are dangerous. Like but. you're talking about data. So I don't. understand how they can just make those.

flat statements like that. >> Right. And what I think we just need to. have a conversation about the data and. you know there's no like right answer. ahead of time. But they don't uh like. their job is to prevent skin cancer. So. if you if that's your only job. you're going to tell people stay out of. the sunlight. >> Forever. >> Forever, right? And no one can call you. on that. No one can say hey like I got. skin cancer and it's your fault. >> Right, but doesn't sun exposure improve. cardiovascular health and lower blood. pressure and isn't cardiovascular.

disease a far more dangerous problem. than skin cancer in terms of numbers? >> It's number one. 20 million deaths a. year, cardia. So, anything that moves the needle on. that is. awesome, you know? >> And it does. >> And it seems to like all the studies. show it does. Um and they're all but they're all. observational studies, right? You look. at populations, you're like, oh, these. people have more sun exposure, lower. blood pressure, lower rates of. cardiovascular disease. So, but then, you know, the other side will say,

you know, correlation does not prove. causation. Like, prove show us that. it's, you know, do do your giant. clinical study. where you stick half the people in the. sunlight and they live longer, which is. not going to happen. >> Right. Yeah, but it's like. are they willing to have a conversation. with you? >> They're not They're not willing to They. don't want to look outside of the sun. and uh. skin cancer question. Like, they're not. willing to entertain any of the other.

benefits that are outside of their. field. So, there's got to be somebody. out there who can be the generalist who. can like think about it holistically. >> That seems so ignorant. >> It's the It's the It's the state of. science now. Like, the science is a is, you know, like, a field of micro. specialties. >> Would you like some coffee? >> Yeah, I'll take a little that looks good. when you're pouring it. That was a very shiny uh press. >> Oh, yeah, fresh press. >> Cheers, sir. Cheers. >> Is coffee good for you? >> Coffee's awesome for Coffee is.

shockingly good for you. >> Talk to me. Let's go. >> It's It is [ __ ] crazy how good coffee. is for you. I've I've been like startled. by the like power of the evidence. >> Yeah. [laughter]. Uh I've read both. I've read it's bad. for you and I dismissed it because uh I. I'm biased. >> [laughter]. >> and I love coffee. And uh I just. I just it it just tastes too good. It. feels too good. I like it.

>> It's um. >> But I've read a lot of benefits about. it. >> I think it's the best possible. supplement. >> Really? >> of it as a supplement? I It's the best. and I think it's all due to. mitochondrial function. I think. it it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know? >> Hm. And is it particularly because of. caffeine or coffee itself? Is it Is the. coffee. >> bean? I mean caffeine I think it's. caffeine but I I wouldn't be surprised. if there's other stuff in coffee that's. contributing cuz, you know, like tea. doesn't seem to quite like deliver the. goods like like coffee does.

>> No. >> But caffeine is actually um. the plants are making it to kill bugs. >> Right. >> Right? It cuz it makes the bugs. mitochondria run out of control and they. basically like blow up. Um. it does that to us but we have these. other like like governors like that come. in and and slow down that ramp up so we. get the nice ramp up without the. explosion. So So it's good. Um so it. makes it it you know, we we produce. energy more efficiently with less uh.

wear and tear. >> That's all I need to hear. I'm in. >> [laughter]. >> I just love coffee. I'm not giving it. up. But I've heard many people say that. Michael Pollan had a really interesting. anecdote. Uh he. laid off coffee for I think three or. four months as an experiment and then he. had a cup of coffee and he said it was. like taking a psychedelic. >> Yeah. >> I just felt so amazing and it was the. the the effect was so profound. He said. I really wanted to do it only that way. where I only take it, you know, very. rarely. Because but then I fell right.

back into my old ways. >> back. Yeah. Like I remember that. article. It was great. And also he said. none of the like the um caffeine. researchers touch the stuff. >> [laughter]. >> I'm like that's not good. Um but yeah, he. he went right back to it and I think. he's a a a. proud coffee drinker. >> Yeah, he is. He went right back to it, but. Um so, have you had any conversations. with these dermatologists that are. denouncing you? >> No, but I'd like to, actually. I think. uh. >> Are they willing or is have they avoided.

them? >> They have so far really avoided. Like. they they they just say, you know, we're. not ready to look at any of that. research. >> God, that's so weird. >> it's going to change. I think actually. um. Like like I said, I think light medicine. is actually going to become very. important in the next 10, 20 years. And. dermatologists are kind of positioned to. be the like the leaders on that stuff, cuz like. uh skin. is the primary like interface with light. for our bodies. And you know, they.

should be experts on all this. Um you. know, you know, red light therapy is a. big thing now. >> Mhm. >> Um and dermatologists are doing that. Uh even though the evidence isn't great. for that, but I think there's probably. something there. Um. But they should basically I think they. need to be thinking more about. all these different wavelengths of light. as healing modalities and how to, you. know, work them into. like regular like programs. >> I've talked about this before, so I. apologize to anybody listening, but I've. essentially completely stopped my.

macular degeneration with red light. therapy. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like I don't need reading glasses. anymore. I've been using a red light bed. for about 2 years now. And from the time. I started using it within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so, Gary. Brecka was on the podcast and he. explained it to me. And so, I I went out. and bought one of these really expensive. It's like a tanning bed, this thing you. lie in. And I do it three times a week. for 20 minutes. >> So, all over? >> Yep. You naked. Just lie down in there.

And I keep my eyes open. And uh they you. know, I went to a tanning bed once not a. tanning bed a a red light bed once at a. health clinic. And they were like, "You. got to wear these goggles and make sure. you close your eyes before the light. goes on." I was like, "Okay." I did all. that. And apparently there's some. benefit that even when blindfolded it. increases your vision. >> Yeah, for sure. It's. again I think mitochondria are part of. that answer. There's a guy at University. College London, Glen Jeffery, who this. is his whole field, optometry and red. light. And he has shown in multiple.

different animals including humans that. um red light improves mitochondrial. function and and and improves vision. >> Yeah, I mean I'm 58 and for me to be 56. and saying I'm [ __ ] I have I I had. these [ __ ] things everywhere. I had. these all of these reading glasses I had. them all over my house. I gotten up to. 3x these are the cheap Amazon ones. I. had a nice pair but I'd keep losing them. so I just I went and bought cheap ones.

They seem to work and it was just fine. for looking at a computer you know, reading my emails, reading my phone. And. I needed them to read my phone. I don't. need them anymore. Like at all. I don't. use them anymore. My my vision's not. perfect. It's not as good as it was when. I was 20 but is way better than it was. when I was 56. >> And I yeah, I think so the. the uh. in the eye the mitochondria in the eyes. have to fire faster than any. mitochondria anywhere else in the body.

The eyes burn through energy like like. no other cells. Um. cuz it's like you know, it's kind of the. toughest task. It's like they got to go. super fast. Um so they yeah, they those. mitochondria need to be. on top of their game and it seems like. red light benefits that in particular. >> What seems so close-minded that these. dermatologists aren't willing to say. maybe we're looking at just insufficient. amount of data, maybe we're looking at. this wrong, maybe the whole thing is.

much more nuanced and maybe there's. benefits if it done correctly. I just. don't understand why they're not with. there's all this data, which clearly you. show in your book that there's a a. tremendous amount of data, why? >> You know, like um so there's this like. saying attributed to uh Max Planck, who's this like quantum physicist, science advances one funeral at a time, >> [laughter]. >> I think we got to let the old guard like. die off a [clears throat] little bit, but I I guarantee you there's a a young. generation coming in who's going to.

be really interested in light and how. they can use it. >> Um certainly. Well, I think there's so. many conversations available online now. from actual researchers and people who. have put in the time and put in the work. and explored things from this position. that like, "Hey, maybe the old guard are. not correct." And the data seems to show. that that's true. >> Yeah, and it's fun. I mean, playing with. light, it's super fun. So, like this is. a way you can you can like make your. world a little bit richer is starting to. think about this stuff.

>> Well, it's also like don't you want to. be informed? And if there's if we do. understand that it has an effect on. mitochondria and there is all this. evidence that red light seems to have. some benefits. Like. wouldn't I just don't understand how. someone could be an expert in skin and. ignore that? >> Well, I think that and they'll be able. They won't object to the red. They're. There's some of them are using red light. therapy cuz there's no risk of skin. cancer for red. It's only the UV and. maybe a little bit of the blue that. contributes to skin cancer. So, that.

it's the UV where where they get a. little wigged out. >> Yeah, but I. But even that, it seems like there's a. tre- like in your book you show there's. a tremendous amount of data there's. health benefits to it. So, I just don't. understand. >> And that data is. It's coming from all all different other. fields like immunology, cardiology. So, and like scientists are sort of. increasingly like hesitant to trespass. on. their other other domains, you know? Like they're not going to walk across. campus to the uh.

the other building. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But that needs to change, you know. >> Yeah, we've had those discussions too. with scientists that are. super frustrated, especially when they. try to get interdisciplinary. groups together to study one particular. thing and. >> Yeah. >> everyone's resisting cuz they have their. own work that they're working on and. they don't want to get involved and it's. just like, guys, >> Yeah. >> this is what you're here for. There's. not a lot of scientists. You got to do. your job because like you're the only. ones that are doing it. There's.

Without you guys, we're [ __ ] And if. you're out there relying on old. insufficient data. or, you know, you you have this very. small data set that shows that there's. negative. outcomes to sunlight and so you just. throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like you're doing the whole field a. massive disservice. >> And the other part of it is that um. science it's it's sort of very. self-reinforcing. It's all It's all. grant-based essentially. Like if you're. scientist, you want to do a study, you. have to apply for a grant to get the.

money to do the study. >> Right. Right. >> And there's generally a handful of. entities that are like handing out the. grant money. >> Mhm. >> And it's the old guys waiting to die um. who are going to approve what they think. is the truth. But they're they're going. to fund the study that fits with what. they already know about the world. So. it's this kind of crazy system where the. only way you can get money to do a study. is if you're already telling them what. they know. >> Right. >> Right. So it's very difficult to get. funded to do something that goes against. the grain, increasingly so. And that's a. problem. >> And so much of it is dependent upon the.

ego of the people that are at the top of. the organization. >> Ego's definitely part of it. >> It's a giant part of it because if. they've based their entire career on. telling you one thing that turns out to. be incorrect, they're very reluctant to. correct themselves. >> Yeah, that is not just a. It's very rare to find the individual. who's well-known in the field and is. eager to self-correct, you know. >> So have you had any conversations with. any of these dermatologists? >> Uh know, but I'd love to. >> Not one? That seems crazy. Have you.

reached out to any of them? >> I have. When I've reached out and I get. the boilerplate. Like. we don't want anyone in the sun. Take your D pills. Doesn't matter Well, the one that really. I think has got to change is the skin. color question. Cuz. fine to to you know, go with the. recommendations for avoiding sun for. people with fair skin. But for people. with dark skin who have almost no risk. from. from sun-induced skin cancer.

and can benefit hugely from like things. that will lower blood pressure and lower. lower cardiovascular disease. Like it seems like you're not being fair. to those people. >> Not only that, it makes you feel better. Which is very important just for sanity. >> I mean that I think that gets. underplayed. Like mood and happiness is. kind of the whole deal, right? And. there's just no question that sun. exposure makes you happier. >> I spent a week with my friend Brian.

Callen and Steve Rinella in Alaska and. Prince Edward's Island. And it rains there like 350 days a year. And we got rained on for the entire. week. And then when I came back to LA. I was driving around and the sun was. magnificent. It felt so good. I stood outside, I. closed my eyes, I like stretched my arms. wide, like I was just taking it all in. And I called my friend Steve up and I. said, "Dude, because we were in the rain for like a.

week, I go I'm in LA right now in the. sun and it feels amazing. I never felt. the sun like this before. It's cuz like. my body was saying, 'You didn't get. enough of this for a week. Now take it. in and we're going to reward you with. all these amazing endorphins and good. feelings.' Like if that was a drug, that. drug that I took, like if depressed. people could take whatever I felt when I. was out in the sun after a week in the. rain, they would take it every day. They. would it would change the world. You.

would like, I could feel like this all. the time. And it went away. You know, it went away. cuz LA is sunny all day long every day. >> Right, right. >> So, eventually I got accustomed to it, but that feeling that I got that I got. after the week in the rain and coming. back just be like, ah, it was incredible. It was like a drug, but an amazing drug, a happy drug. >> Yeah, it's a it's an awesome drug. And I. I felt it for sure. You know, I. especially like early spring. If I leave. Vermont and and I like have something in. LA, I'm just like,

like, why is everyone not just dancing. on the streets? This feels so good, you. know? >> But the problem is Los Angeles, they're. so used to it. >> Yeah. >> They're they're so spoiled. Everyone there is so spoiled. weather-wise. It's the perfect weather. on Earth. It's it's incredible. Especially if you live in like Malibu. where it barely barely even gets hot. So, you're dealing with that cool ocean. breeze and it's sunny every day. You. know, like, ah. >> Yeah. But how about here? Like, do you. end up spending a lot of time outside. here or. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I do. Um but I'm.

outdoors all the time. I work out. outside. I do a lot of farmers carries. outside. I. I practice archery, so I shoot my bow. outside every day and I love it. I it. feel I feel better. Even when it's hot. out, I don't mind because I'm. really kind of accustomed to it because. of sauna use. I use a sauna every day. And I'm pretty religious about it. Um so, my body's really acclimated to. heat. So, it doesn't really bother me. that much. I just bring a big jug of. 64-oz jug of water with ice and.

electrolytes and I just drink that while. I'm out there. >> Yeah. >> So, I shoot my bow for hour and a half, 2 hours in 105 degrees and I'm fine. I. love it. >> Actually, it's good too. Yeah. Like, as. a kid in Florida, you know, we'd play. basketball after school for hours and or. in summer it'd be be 105 degrees, and. then you just kind of turn the hose, you. stick the hose in your mouth for quite a. long time, you know. [laughter]. >> Yeah, I mean, it feels great. It's just. you have to make sure you're not. dehydrated, and you have to make sure. you don't burn. That's That's kind of.

all it is. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> It all seems to be. Um but we do see like truckers that uh. have you ever seen those? >> You're talking about that famous photo. >> Yeah. >> That is a crazy photo. >> Crazy photo. So, what we're referring to. is there's a photo of this trucker, and. the left side of his face, from the sun. coming in from the window, looks like. he's 20 years older on his left side. than it is on his right side. >> It's like It's like special effects. Somebody melted the left side of his.

face. >> What's that all about? Yeah, there's the. guy. >> There he is. >> That's. >> Yeah. >> literally nuts. >> Yeah, it's like. >> That's literally nuts. >> Like left side is just sloping off, basically. >> His left side looks like a 100-year-old. man truck driver face. Years behind the wheel driving a truck, damage typically limited to the left. side of the face. So, it's literally. called truck driver face. >> Yeah, and now So, this that that that. photo and that study got used to like. scare the [ __ ] out of a lot of people, try to keep them out of the sun.

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jalapeno. Go to paleovalley.com/rogan. and use the code Rogan. That's. paleovalley.com/rogan. Woah, that's crazy. Look at the. difference between [laughter]. Wow, that's literally bananas. What So, what they're showing back and forth is. they're just taking the skin from the. left side of the face and switching. sides so you could see how much damage. he's. received on that side, the driver side. >> Yeah, and so there's a couple of. interesting things there. One, um.

that is shocking, but. the question ask is, why doesn't every. trucker look like that, right? Like, if. that's the problem, why does why did why. him? Like, cuz I've been driving a car. for 45 years and, you know, my face is. >> the same on the left as it is on the. right. Yeah. >> It's kind of hanging in there. But, um. but the other thing is window glass, I. think, is actually a really interesting. problem to talk about. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz window glass blocks UVB, but not. UVA. And there's two different.

wavelengths of UV. >> Mhm. >> The UVB is the super high-energy one. UVA is a little bit low lower. It's kind. of on the way to blue. Um. and they used to think back in the day. that UVB was the only one that caused. skin cancer. And those old sunscreens. that we used in the '70s and '80s. only blocked UVB. Window glass blocks UVB. blocks only part of the UVA. So, anytime. you're driving or you're hanging out in. the window in your house, you're getting a bunch of UVA. You're.

not going to burn cuz UVB is the one. that causes burning. But, you're still going to get a bunch. of UVA, which they figured out like in. the '90s does cause skin cancer. >> Oh, wow. >> So. >> So sun through the windows. >> Sun through the windows. >> as good as sun outside. >> Um it it blocks the UVB, but. the UVA comes through, but you'll never. you'll never have a burn reaction. because of it. >> But you might be getting damaged. >> Yeah, and so like.

uh. in the in the US. people get slightly more slightly higher. rates of skin cancer on the left side of. their body. In the UK, they get slightly. higher rates of skin cancer on the right. side. >> Aha, cuz they drive on the opposite side. of the road. >> Yeah. So window glass is. >> slightly. >> Slightly. It's like 52/48. It's not not. huge. >> Okay, but it's statistically. significant. >> Statistically significant, yeah. >> Huh. So do you think it's this guy's. particular genes? >> There must be something weird about that.

guy. >> Right. [laughter] Well, how many. instances of truck driver face do they. have? >> I just Googled the condition and it's. only him coming up in the photos. >> So this is the thing. >> One lady, but I don't She clearly. doesn't seem to have the same issue. >> There's a lot of truck drivers that have. been doing it for 50 years. >> That's not the same thing. >> Oh, that's not real. >> Is that real? >> That's [laughter] a different thing. She's got something wrong with her jaw. >> Oh. >> But it's coming up as the same. condition. Unilateral derma. derma photo I can't say it. >> Oh, so she had some sort of cancer that.

made her way its way into her jaw? >> But I can't I would have assumed that. more cases would pop up, but it's. literally just him. >> So that's the thing. It's the the real. question is. what's up with that dude? >> Yeah, interesting. >> truck. That's not the Oh, I don't think that's the same guy. >> No, doesn't seem like the same person, but might be. It's hard to say. Could be different. lighting. >> But so the thing is if so those. sunscreens. that were acting kind of like window. glass in the '70s and '80s and even into. the '90s before we got the broad.

spectrum sunscreens. >> Mhm. >> They're blocking the UVB, so you weren't. going to ever burn. And that's what SPF. actually measures is how many more times. you can be out in the sun without. burning. So, if you got but based. totally on UVB. So, if you got SPF 30, in theory, you. can spend 30 times as long outside. before you start to burn. That's a long. time, right? Um but all that time, UVA. is just pouring into you. And they now. know that UVA is the one that probably.

is most likely to cause melanoma. >> Oh, that's crazy. Wow. So, sunscreen. Now, I use a natural. sunscreen when I use it at all. It's. this stuff that's like beef tallow based. and has zinc in it. It's very white and. obvious. You know, it's the the spray. stuff goes on clear. Can't even tell you. have it on. Yeah. But, it's very. effective. But, I'm always like super. hesitant. I'm like, what what's in that. stuff that we're going to find out 15, 20 years from now? Like, if it can block. the sun, so it's a chemical. And you're.

spraying this chemical on an organ, which is your skin. >> Yeah. >> So, your your skin's absorbing it. I'm. like, what what's going on there? >> And they used to say, "Oh, no, no. It's. not absorbed very much." And then the uh. FDA, CDC did studies a few years ago and. discovered that it's absorbed at very. large amounts. Like, it it it turns up at at high doses or or. higher doses than they would like it to. in blood, breast milk, urine, you name. it.

>> And what specifically turns up and. what's dangerous about it? >> So, they're suspected to be hormone. disruptors, all those classic chemical. filters like oxybenzone. Um. There There isn't a. There isn't much proof that they're uh. dangerous in the amounts used. But, they're they definitely are. absorbed at much higher rates than we. thought. And the FDA has refused to. approve them as safe. um pending more testing. >> Ooh. >> And nobody's done the testing.

>> Ooh. >> But they're about to get phased out. anyway. Like just as of a couple months. ago, um, the uh. the government changed the rules and is. going to let in, for the first time. in 30 years, new ingredients, which. they've been using in Europe and Asia. and Australia for decades, and the. sunscreen companies have been asking to. use them and haven't been allowed to, but now they're finally going to get to. use uh what like one of the main ones. >> And what are these ingredients?

>> So it's called like. bemotrizinol or something. Um, and. there's another one that you see in the. in Europe called like um, Mexoryl 400. But they're way better. Like basically. US sunscreens are a generation behind. everyone else because in the US. sunscreens are regulated as. over-the-counter drugs. >> Mhm. >> Bemotrizinol, yeah. >> Bemotrizinol, highly effective. broad-spectrum UV filter, blocks both. UVA and UVB, approved by FDA as. over-the-counter sunscreen ingredient in. June of 2026. Oh, wow. So this month.

>> Just happened. Yeah. >> Celebrated for being highly photostable, doesn't break down in the sun, transparent on the skin without leaving. a white cast, and gentle on sensitive. skin. So this is RFK Jr. stuff. >> Yeah, I this one looks really good. Um. >> So this other stuff that is has been in. there. why didn't it get examined if Europe and. Asia and all these other places were. using these different safer versions? >> Yeah, they all bailed on it a long ago. Um, cuz it was all we had and um.

>> That drives me crazy. >> Yeah, well so it's because so the FDA so. in the US sunscreens are regulated as as. drugs, over-the-counter drugs. So you. have to do all this safety testing if. you want to get a new ingredient in. Everywhere else they're just cosmetics, so you can use kind of whatever you want. um, with more minimal safety testing. So the the companies wanted to use this. stuff in the US forever, but the FDA. said. sure, just, you know, do the testing. But they didn't want to do They was too. expensive to do the testing. They would. have to eat test it on animals. They.

didn't want to get the blowback on that. There are a bunch of reasons that they. weren't willing to do it. Also, I think. they're a little scared what they might. find. Um. So, anyway, so our our sunscreens have. not been nearly as good as what's used. elsewhere. Um in both in terms of performance and. like maybe safety. uh suspicions. So, that That's going to. change by the end of this year. It's. going to get better. >> Well, that's good. It Are there with the. traditional sunscreen ingredients that. we used to use, is there any negative. health consequences of using them that.

they've shown? Like is there any. diseases that occur more readily or more. frequently? >> Um not that have been proven. There's. like toxicologists are little suspicious. about some of them. Like they've. definitely been shown to to mess up. coral, right? Like people who. >> Coral reefs, right? Yeah. That's one of. the things they found after COVID, right? >> Yeah. >> Exactly. They used to think that it was. the warming of the environment. This was. one of the things that climate change. people used to say. The climate change. is what's destroying the coral reefs. We're And then it turns out actually.

it's all these people that have. sunscreen all over their body and they. jump in the ocean and they're. essentially poisoning the reef. >> Yeah, I mean it's all of the above, I'm. pretty sure. But uh but yeah, the. sunscreen at at that kind of. concentration, if you got a, you know, a. bazillion snorkelers in the water, can. definitely mess up the coral pretty bad. >> Yeah, wasn't there some sort of a study. that examined what happened to the reef. after COVID? There was one particular. reef reef that was in a this. highly. visited area where people would jump in.

And they showed a a massive increase in. in the reef after COVID. >> Yeah, like well, Hawaii Hawaii banned uh. use of those sunscreens. A a bunch of. places banned uh. banned those that style of sunscreen. Um. but. the uh. >> But they they don't really check your. bags though. >> Yeah, yeah, right. >> what I mean? When they say banned, like. people are going to take it anyway. >> But it doesn't look like I don't think. it has, uh, much impact on, uh, on us unless you're using a ton of it,

which of course now some people are. >> So it's not great for you, but it's not. the worst. >> Yeah, there's been a bunch of studies. that just looked at like lifespan and. sunscreen doesn't seem to have any. impact whatsoever, like positive or. negative on lifespan. >> Mhm. So it just might have some sort of. an impact on hormonal function. >> Yeah, it could well, um, >> Endocrine disruption. >> Endocrine disruption. There's a guy. named Graham Peaslee at Notre Dame who, um, found that, uh,

many, many cosmetic products of all. kinds. are actually contaminated with forever. chemicals. >> Mhm. >> Um, and it's even if they don't have it. on the ingredients. Like anything that's. like water resistant or super smooth, it's. quite possibly going to have forever. chemicals in it. And some of it is. actually coming from the plastic. containers cuz those get, um, they basically get. like fluorinated with this like fluorine.

gas before they get anything in them, which is supposed to make them like a. little smoother the inside of the. containers. But it turns out that. actually leaks forever chemicals into. the product, whatever's in there. >> Mhm. >> That's what he found. >> Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is. a problem with hot coffee when you. drinking it out of a paper cup. >> Very similar, yeah. >> Yeah, people don't realize like the. paper cup is not capable of keeping that. liquid. >> Yeah. >> It would turn to mush. And the reason. why it doesn't turn to mush is cuz.

there's essentially a condom like around. the inside of the coffee cup. And you. know, Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup. down to show what it looks like. on the inside and you're like, oh no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do. And. it's also like most coffee machines. Like a giant percentage of coffee. machines have just plastic everywhere. I. got rid of mine. That's why we use. French press at the studio, and I use. that at home, too. And I have one of. those little Aeropresses to make an. individual cup of coffee.

>> Yeah. >> It's like the plastic is a real problem, and heating it is terrible. We we know. that about water bottles. Like you're. never supposed to drink out of a water. bottle that you leave in the hot sun in. your car. >> So now picture that bottle sunscreen. that's sitting in your car. >> Right. >> Cooking. >> Yeah. >> And it and leaching into the. the material. >> Yuck. Yeah, not good. Pe- People don't. think of the skin as an organ. And um I. was explaining to a friend of mine the. other day. He was using um hand wash. that that [ __ ] hand sanitizer stuff.

And I'm like, "Man, I don't think that's. good for you." I'm like, "I think if you. want to wash your hands, you should just. use soap and water." And then I read. this article about it. Like, "Oh, yeah. That's a a toxic chemical." I'm like, "Hand sanitizer, when you're using it. every day, you're essentially exposing. your skin, your organ, to this like What. What exactly is in hand sanitizer, and. is it bad for you?". Cuz I I remember this article, but I. I just like went over the headline and.

briefly started reading it, and then I I. had to do something, and I put a. bookmark to it. I was going to go back. to it later, and I never did. >> Okay. I thought you were going to say. like something happened to the bookmark. >> No, it No, no. No, I just I never went back to it, but. I remember during the COVID times, everybody was just like hand sanitizer. everywhere. I'm like, "I just don't. think that can be good for you.". >> I mean, anything that's antibiotic, right? Anything that's killing. biological life, probably you want to be. at least a little bit hesitant with. >> It's mostly alcohol. >> Mostly alcohol. Well, even alcohol going.

through your skin like that. Uh isopropyl alcohol sometimes use. instead. >> [clears throat]. >> of or with ethanol similar levels and. then this word benzalkonium. chloride in many alcohol free products. All right, but see if you can find articles on the. dangers of using hand sanitizer. Cuz. this is what I had read.

briefly. >> Ah. >> Just say. >> overuse it they're going to [ __ ] up your. skin biome but I don't. >> Yeah, that's what it's saying overuse. >> I just I just know that. >> I know guys got OCD. And he's um. you know, hypochondriac a little bit and. he uses hand sanitizer all the time it's. kind of crazy and uh. a friend of mine without knowing went to. look at his house cuz his house was for. for sale. And he's looking at the house he's like. this is a very nice house and he opens. up a closet and one of the closets was.

filled with hand sanitizer and he got so. freaked out he didn't want to live in. the house anymore. He's like I don't. want to buy this house. Like this guy. like whatever weird thing he's possessed. with that he needs 50,000 [ __ ]. bottles of hand sanitizer. >> issues are just like overuse and then. don't not use it on your hands. obviously. Don't breathe it, don't drink. it. >> Right, only use it on your hands. Yeah. >> But Jamie's right on the skin. biome skin biome is turning out to be. really important. Like there's you know, they call it the gut skin act axis where.

your skin microbiome and your gut. microbiome are like chatting all the. time. >> Mhm. >> And. you you you can change the composition. of your skin microbiome based on. all kinds of stuff like products, sun. exposure. you know, everything you do. >> probiotics. >> probiotics. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, in the jujitsu world. in the the early 2000s people started. really getting into probiotics they were. started really getting into acidophilus,

yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables and. stuff like that just to prevent skin. issues. >> Interesting. >> Because jujitsu, because you're you're. getting scratched up and you're rolling. around and there's a lot of infections. And a lot of people get not just. infections like staph infection, but. they also get ringworm and a bunch of. stuff like that. And so. some people started using antibacterial. soap. And the problem with that is it. just nukes all the good flora of your. skin. >> Yeah. >> So then there's a company called Defense.

Soap. And they developed a soap. specifically for grapplers. And this. soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus, and it's very healthy for the skin. So. it promotes healthy gut flora, but it. does kill all the cooties. >> Right. >> It kills all the mat cooties. >> Yeah. Um yeah, that's I think that's. basically what you want. Like that. microbiome, it can take a lot of natural. uh you know, abuse. It's there. It you. know, it naturally lives on skin. So. it's usually getting like roughed up by. the world. >> Mhm. >> But yeah, two chemicals that are too.

strong can take it out. >> And the gut flora is important as well. It's like you got to think of the whole. thing as one sort of ecosystem. Your. whole body. >> it all works together. And if your gut. biome is all [ __ ] up and you don't. have healthy gut flora, it can affect. all sorts of different issues. >> And yeah, it it shows up on the skin for. sure. That's that's well known. >> So when um you first started getting. pushed back against this, did Were you.

surprised? Did it upset you? Like what. did it feel like to get attacked by. dermatologists? >> I am naturally conflict averse, right? I was kind of like, do I even want to. talk about this? But it was such. interesting information I thought was. important, so I wanted to. It started um. I wrote an article for Outside back in. like 2018. And I titled it is sunscreen. the new margarine, right? >> Ooh. >> So right there. that's pushing buttons. >> Yeah. >> I probably, you know, in retrospect,

>> Yeah. push as many buttons today. >> [laughter]. >> I just point to the data. >> You just didn't like it. Didn't like the. the response? >> Well, I mean, it got a massive response. It went truly, you know, viral, as they. used to say. Um, but. it it actually detracted. Like now it I think I think those old. sunscreens really were like margarine, detrimental. Like the ones that only. blocked UVB. Um, so I think I kind of. got it right, but also it's like the. title detracted from the information in. the article in a sense. >> But why? Cuz margarine sucks?

>> Margarine sucks. Those old sunscreens. did suck. The new sunscreens are they're. fine. But, um. >> So, it's a good comparison. >> It It turns out to have been. Yeah, like. the more we learn about those old. sunscreens, the more it looks like a. sort of a like a catastrophic mistake. that then got fixed. But, uh. but. yeah, so that. Like I so now the book is out, I. suddenly I've got all these like beauty. magazines contacting me. And um. they have this image of me as like.

you know, the Unabomber, like [laughter]. hanging out hanging out in my cabin and. firing off these missives. >> Really? >> Yeah, they're like. >> magazines? >> They were nervous to talk to me cuz they. thought I was going to be, you know, >> a cook. >> a cook. Yeah. >> Wow. So, the first article So, those is. sunscreen the new margarine? So, that. was the first one. And what was the. response to that? So, like what do you remember the first. like really negative response and how. you felt about it?

>> Um, so yeah, so there was an official. letter from the the AAD. Uh, like, you. know, we And, you know, they're very. they're very polite, um, but they're. like, "Here, we we've we think this is. misrepresenting, you know, the the. information. Um, and this is And we. think this is dangerous. If you're. telling people that they might. benefit from more sunlight, that's. dangerous. So, that's probably and then, you know, when that came in and I was like, so. that needs to change if if we have in. our heads that exposure to any sunshine.

is dangerous, we, you know, we're not seeing the. forest for the trees. We've lost the. thread on this one. Uh so then, so I did a bunch of other. article. I did one article that focused. specifically on the skin color issue. Like, do people of color. do we need to stop telling people of. color that they need to protect. themselves from the sun? Um. and then I did a couple more recently uh. for the Atlantic um. just on um. like, what should recommendations be?

How do we Can we do recommendations that. are not one-size-fits-all? >> Well, skin color in particular is one of. the best signs of adaptation to. environment. I mean, that's how human. beings were able to get vitamin D from. the sun in a place like Scotland. When. people moved there, they got pale as. [ __ ]. >> 100% There's no. >> Completely makes sense. >> Yeah, and you can track it. It's like, like the gradations of lightening go. with that move northward. And so, you. can tell. Like, white skin is like a.

desperate attempt to get enough light in. a in a, you know, screwy northern. environment. >> Right. But when those people that have. ancestors from that screwy northern. environment move to California or. Arizona, >> or Australia. >> Yeah, and Australia is real bad, right? Because there's all the people that use. hairspray in the '80s. >> [laughter]. >> They caused a [ __ ] giant hole in the. ozone layer over Australia. >> Well, yeah, essentially. >> Yeah, Australia, when I was there, they. have these uh signs on buses. Like,

these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible lesions on people's. faces and stuff. And it's just this. warning to wear sunscreen. >> Protect yourself. >> They're right for like for that like. that's the textbook case where you've. got a a horrible mismatch between the. population and the place. Like super. super high levels of sunshine in. Australia, weak ozone, like redheads from Scotland who like are. trying to deal. So, >> [laughter]. >> like their their skin cancer rates are. literally like two or three times what.

they are anywhere else in the world. >> Wow. Now, how much of that is because of. the skin color of the general Australian. population other than the indigenous. people and how much of it is because the. ozone? >> So, the ozone is healing itself slowly. We're getting there. Um so, that's. probably less of an issue now. It's. really it's a really fair-skinned. population in a like super bright. intense environment. Um so, they do need. to worry about it. But the the problem. is the rest of the world has kind of set.

its like rules about sun exposure based. on Australia. >> What's interesting also about Australia. is like I wonder how long it takes for. human adaptation to start to show. itself. Like do you think like in a 100,000. years from now people that live in. Australia will be dark? >> Well, you you um David Reich had that. did that great episode with you, right? Did you have David Reich on? >> David Reich. >> He's the Harvard uh ancient DNA guy.

>> Did we? No? >> So, he so he just came out with a new. study like 2 months ago. >> people on I can't remember who I've had. on. That's the problem. >> Um if like if I didn't hear it here, where did I hear it? Anyway, um. >> Might be Lex. >> It um. >> Was it Reichmann? >> It just uh. th- that. movement started a few thousand years. ago. Suddenly, like the the that pale. redhead gene came out of nowhere and. like skyrocketed. So, it can change. pretty quickly when the environmental.

factors change. >> Really? That's That's only a few. thousand years old? >> Um the the redheaded gene, yeah. Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> was kind of like lingering quietly in. the background and then. >> Maybe that's why gingers get so much. hate cuz they're just. brand [clears throat] new. >> They are they are like the the next new. thing kind of. But yeah, 4 or 5,000. years ago it suddenly explodes in. popularity but in a very particular. place in in northern Europe. >> Oh, and most likely as a result of the. environment.

>> Yeah, 400%. >> Wow. Yeah. So, I wonder how long it's. going to take. I wonder if we could go. into the future if the same population. lives in Australia now. >> Well, I except. here's the weird thing. Like so, Australians versus UK, right? Similar. genetics. Um Australia super high rates of skin. cancer because of that sunny environment. but also way better lifespan than in the. UK. >> Really? >> So, skin cancer is a factor but that.

sunlight is actually benefiting. Australians more than it's hurting them. compared to the UK. >> Mm. I wonder if a lot It's a I wonder if. that's a healthy user bias as well. Because one of the things about. Australia is a lot of outdoor. activities. A lot of people are doing. stuff outside. >> Yeah, and. >> of activity, period. >> And that could be a factor. And. actually, that's one thing I come, you. know, come down to in the book is it's. really hard to disentangle all of these. factors but what's really obvious is.

just outside good, too much inside bad. >> Yeah. >> So, whatever like you don't even have to. like break it down too much. More outside, covered up, whatever you. want is probably going to be good for. you. >> One of the things that a friend of mine. who's a doctor said that he when he was. working in New York City in the. wintertime, he would find people with. undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah. And he said it was a particular problem. with people with darker skin. >> Mhm. >> Because if you have darker skin, you're. going to get less vitamin D from the sun.

for whatever exposure you do get and. then these people were all indoors all. the time. >> Yeah, and that's a really bad formula. Like yeah, if you have dark skin, you. need five to time five to 10 times as. much sunlight to make the same amount of. vitamin D. >> Oh. >> So, you're really if you have really. dark skin, you're kind of designed for a. very bright pre, you know, tropical. environment where you're. >> where you're outside all the time. >> outside all the time. You can handle 12. hours a day of sunshine and in fact, you're going to benefit from it. You get. moved to a really dark environment,

that's not going to be good for you and. so you probably need to compensate in. other ways. >> It's going to be very interesting when. genetic engineering reaches a level. where we can turn those things on and. off in people and how do people react to. fair-skinned people all of a sudden. getting dark? >> Like like you know, like. >> Well, we are one race. We are it's we. are the human race. There's a bunch of.

different. ancestors where people came from. different areas where they adapted to. different environments, but the reality. is we're just human beings and we all. started in Ethiopia and we spread out. and that's just what we are. We are the. result of whatever environment our. ancestors evolved in. >> Yeah, totally and with with skin tone, it's clearly like very very specific. reactions to that environment and trying. to figure out what's best in each. situation. >> But there's so much racial identity.

that's tied that's tied to these. characteristics. of your appearance and where your. ancestors are from. It's going to be. very weird if all of a sudden you could. like people get like dark, thick, curly. hair and. and they're they used to be gingers. I. wonder how people are going to react to. that. >> I mean, it's coming, right? >> Right. It's coming. >> All bets are off. >> Yeah, I just wonder how many people are. going to be claiming cultural or racial. appropriation with people just deciding.

to have a a healthier skin tone. that protects them from the sun more. >> Wow, I see where you go. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Um. >> Like that guy with the Melanotan, I. wonder. >> [laughter]. >> I wonder if anybody got mad at him. >> Right, right. Like Like what are you. supposed to look like? >> Mhm. Yeah, what are you supposed to look. like? >> Yeah, yeah. >> There was a lady that was on a. television show once that was turning. herself black. It was in the UK. And this lady looked. She looked like she had other issues. She had giant breast implants. She.

looked like a cook. Like a bunch of. plastic surgery. But she was dark as a. date. >> [laughter]. >> Like she. Like that lady. That's a white lady. So that's what she used to look like. And she's getting her boobs bigger and. bigger. She wants them bigger. And so look, she keeps getting. >> a little too far maybe. >> Maybe. >> Wow, that's her? >> Yeah, that's her. So what did she do? Via intense use of. tanning injections. Yeah, so she's She's. the ultimate Melanotan hero.

>> Wow. [laughter]. Um. >> I mean that guy That lady got like. Cameroon dark. Like look at that photo. again. Go back to that video. Like that's crazy. >> That is crazy. >> That's crazy. >> I don't I don't know. Maybe if you're in. Australia it works for you. >> Uh maybe. Well, it would, right? It. would protect cuz it is melanin. But obviously she's got She's got other. things going on. >> Like you [snorts] Yeah, at some point. you might might might have too much.

melanin. Also, here's the funny thing. about melanin as well. Like so it's made. by our melanocytes, um which are what. can become melanoma if they get screwed. up. And those are in the very bottom of. the epidermis, the outer layer of the. skin. Um. and it's incredibly good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with. It's almost perfect at it. But what you. want it when it when um your skin gets. hit with sunlight, that melanin that's. just been produced is at the bottom of. the epidermis where the melanocytes are,

so it has to migrate to the surface and. then it kind of acts like like like. little umbrellas. Like it it'll like. cover the nucleus of the cell and. protect it. So, you get these little. like umbrellas, a line of umbrellas on. the very top of your epidermis, but it. has to migrate up because of sunlight. If melanin is lower in your skin, then. it's going to absorb all that radiation. farther down and actually it can cause. more free radicals deeper in the skin. >> would cause it to be lower? >> So, it starts lower and it only goes up.

in response to sunlight. >> Oh. >> So, if you're never ever in the sun. and you suddenly go out and get hit by a. bunch of sunlight, your melanin's going. to be. down too low and can actually create. free I can exacerbate the problem. >> So, this lady might be exacerbating the. problem if he she she's just getting the. melanin that way. >> So, yeah, I don't know because I don't. know about this specifically, but you. probably Yeah, you don't want to just be. like messing around with melanin.

uh. like to the extent that she is. >> Oh, boy. That's interesting cuz like the. melanotan stuff, the I've I've I have. heard about it before and I I just I. never really looked into it, but the. idea kind of makes sense that if you can. make your body produce more melanin, that would protect yourself, but I. didn't realize that it has to be melanin. from sun exposure. >> it in the right place. >> Yeah. Could both things work? Could you do it. that way and with sun exposure increase.

increase both and would it and. would it give some sort of a benefit to. have a higher level of melanin that. could eventually get to the surface of. the skin? Does that make any sense? >> You're you're above my pay grade now. Like I think you might be above. everybody's pay grade. I don't I'm I. don't know if anyone has looked at that. >> They seem It seems like something to. look into though if we know that there's. a benefit to having melanin. >> Yeah, it I mean, it'd be interesting. Like that I I think this stuff's new. enough that there probably hasn't been a. ton of research on it. [snorts]. >> So, what does a pale person do? What.

does the old pasty white do? >> Yeah. So, it's full pasty white, like really. pale? >> Yeah, like my friend I have a friend. that is my my daughter said he's white. and I said she was really little and I. go, "Yeah." She goes, "No, no, no, he's. white like paper.". >> [laughter]. >> So, if you're white like paper. >> Yeah. You you do have to be really. careful. Um. you're not going to tan that much. You. just don't make that much melanin. Um. >> Can that change over time? Can they like. slowly expose themselves to the sunlight.

like a 5 minutes a day. and just ramp it up? >> Depe- If If depends on your genetics. Um. if you're like a full-on ginger, like. true redhead, uh you're. then you have a type of melanin called. pheomelanin, not eumelanin, which is. what everybody else has. And pheomelanin. just does not do a good job absorbing. sunlight. >> Oh, no. >> So, there's no hope for gingers? >> There's no hope for gingers in terms of. sun exposure. >> Damn.

>> The hope is just you know, avoid that. midday sun, that's high in UV. Get the. morning and and like the sunrise and. sunset stuff that doesn't have the UV in. it. >> Okay, so they can benefit from sun. exposure, but they can't have like. full-on outdoor sun exposure. >> Yeah, they're the ones who need to be. really careful. >> So, for those people, sunscreen is. recommended. >> Yeah, or or just cover up even, I think, better, you know? >> How many other people are working on. this stuff? And is everybody sort of in.

agreement with the data, the people that. are examining it? >> I mean, there's a ton of science coming. out, but it's it's early days, for sure. >> Doesn't it seem crazy that sun. and our reaction to sun is an unknown or. at least. poorly studied. >> Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, but yeah it's amazing how. many things in medicine. you know, you you dive into the research. and you dig down a little and you.

realize that we're just kind of guessing. still on on many levels. Like it's early days for a lot of this. stuff. >> Well, certainly for like stuff that they. use for antidepressants. >> Yeah, but yeah. >> yeah. Yeah. >> Sun sun sun exposure is competitive with. antidepressants in terms of the lifting. depression. >> Isn't that nuts? And you know what's way. better? Exercise. >> Yeah. >> Many times better than any known. antidepressants, regular exercise. >> I mean exercise is number one for.

everything across the board. >> Ginger people with melat- the peptide. here. >> Mhm. >> Seeing a few posts about it changing. their hair color. >> Interesting. >> And this was apparently. >> What? >> Yeah. >> Click on that. >> Well, that this is a I guess it just. takes you to the Reddit. It's just going. to show you a YouTube video here, but. there's multiple there's other ones. >> Changes hair color. >> Other posts about it. >> Whoa. >> And there's a I was just seeing a. >> What if that would work with people that. are old that have like white hair? I wonder what that would do.

>> Like a melaton in two page says like how. it can affect hair color. And that's I. read through real quick and this is not. the best website to. >> Isn't it weird that women with red hair. are hot. and men with red hair are not? >> [laughter]. >> It's very very weird cuz women with red. hair are considered very attractive. >> Yeah, this one's this guy has got a. spray tan. >> Okay, but the people that take it that. one guy, is he like a one of one where. it changes hair color?

>> Uh what's that this like I said so this. website. >> Click on that click on the video. Let's. watch it for a couple seconds. See what. this guy's showing. So this is him before and this is him. now. His eyebrow and his beard color's. changed. Also, I. >> We clicked on the This might not even be. him. He could be reporting the video. about someone else, too. >> So, before I got old, gray, and my hair. started. >> He looks pretty good. >> Yeah. >> and you know, lying by the side of the. road, >> gray. >> used to be ginger. Now, I was bullied a.

lot as a kid because I was ginger, I was. weird, and I was chubby. That's the. winning trio for being directions from. this going through a lot of changes up. here, down there. You know, the stuff. that happens during puberty. So, I. didn't immediately notice that my hair. had gotten much darker. It was actually. other people asking me what the hell I. had done to my hairline, you know? On. this picture, it's probably much. clearer. That's a picture of me and my. brother. We have the same genetics in.

regards of skin color and the color of. our hair. And as you can see, my hair is. now completely different from his. We. used to have the same skin and the same. hair, especially the color. Now, this is. only from using one vial of Melanotan II. in the span of a year, even more than a. year. And it was at low dosages. But. with our genetics of big, tall, white, ginger, Belgian gingers, changed the color of my hair and my. skin, and the effects were very strong.

>> So, the effects are permanent. So, he. still has dark hair. But what's. interesting is that in the beginning, he. had gray hair. >> He seems older, obviously, right? >> Right, but he had gray He was showing in. his hair's not gray anymore. Right. >> I mean, gray gray Yeah. >> Gray and ginger. >> Gray is a loss of melanin. Like, melanin's what makes your hair dark as. well as your skin dark. So, he's he's. resupplied his melanin for his hair as. well, it seems like. >> That seems kind of nuts.

>> He said one vial for a year. Oh, he's. saying even over a year. >> Right. So, for a year. So, his skin has. gotten pale again, but his hair is. permanently dark. So, that's what he. used to look like. He had red hair, he. had a red beard, and he had gray hair. His hair had gone gray, and now his hair. is dark. I got to know if this guy's. full of [ __ ]. >> Yeah, and there's one That's again, it's. like there's one only one person saying. that. >> Yeah, that's the problem. It's like you. don't know what you're looking at. But, that's crazy. >> But, it is, yeah. Melanin is the pigment.

for all of it, for all of it. >> Put that in Does mela- melanotan How. does it say How do you say it? >> Melanotan. >> Melanotan? Does melanotan have an effect. on hair color? Put that in the. perplexity. See what that say. >> Yeah, I think this Yeah. >> What does it say? Cuz I know a lot of people with gray. hair that it bumps them out. And they. dye it and [ __ ] and that can't be good. for you. You're putting [ __ ] dye in. your hair. >> I know. Stuff makes me hesitant. I'm. stuck with the gray hair, I think.

>> Well, mine would be gray if I had hair. It's all gray in my beard now. It's gray. in my. I'm I'm going to try it. I'm going to. try some melanotan. and see if I get. dangerous boners. Melanotan does not have good human. evidence of changing scalp or body hair. color. Its main effect is on skin tanning and. freckling, not on turning hair darker or. lighter. But, how's that guy? Maybe he's like a just a weird case. >> Uh yeah, it would just got to be a.

hormone dependent. >> What about the lady with the giant. boobs? She had dark hair, too. >> She She'll She's saying when I was. looking at her thing, it was that she. went through a permanent tanning. process. So, I don't know. She would. have been taking extreme dosages. But, also her Instagram account is a mess. >> [laughter]. >> If it's even hers, it's the one that. Google showed me. >> But, what's the What's the erection. connection? I don't understand how you. know. >> Yeah, what's the melanotan. erection connection? I have heard that,

though. Actually, Brigham from Ways to. Well, the local wellness clinic was. telling me about that that some people. have crazy erections because of. Melanotan. Yeah, like what? How? And. then some people don't. Like that one. guy that had taken it, he said that it. didn't affect him that way. But maybe. maybe [snorts] he's broken. >> [laughter]. >> Does it say anything about. like Melanotan causes of boners? Okay, it can increase. uh libido and trigger erections in some.

men, but it's not approved for well I. know it's not approved. How does it. affect it? Stimulates melano-. cortin melanocortin receptors in the. brain, which are involved in sexual. arousal and erection control, not just. tanning. Controlled tiles controlled. trot Jeez, I can't talk today. Subcutaneous Melanotan 2 caused. erections in most men with erectile. dysfunction often without sexual. stimulation.

Same studies found increased sexual. desire in a majority of doses compared. with placebo. Mhm. Interesting. I wonder what the connection is. >> It's that It's the melanocortin. Like. you said that the MC was MC4R up there. Um. so yeah, MC1R is um the the gene for um. that that could determines whether. you've got the red hair or not. >> Look at this. Common side effects were. yawning.

Nausea, yawning, and stretching, flushing with decreased appetite. Some. participants had severe nausea at higher. doses. >> Yawning and sexual desires. [clears throat] is an interesting. combination. >> Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, I'm really horny, but I'm too. tired to do anything about it. [laughter]. >> Hypoactive sexual desire for. premenopausal women. >> Interesting. Interesting. Also shows uh rectogen-. genic I like that word, a rectogenic.

effects in men with ED. In including those who fail PDE5. inhibitors. What is that What's a PDE5 inhibitor? Interesting. Someone should Someone out there with. gray hair should give it a go. Find out Find out what's up. Doesn't. sound like other than dealing with. boners, seem like there's any real. problems. Um. I just I keep going back to this you.

getting attacked thing, and I don't. understand how someone could attack you. with the data that you're showing, cuz. like it's You're not making any. dangerous or. you know, any. claims or any You You're not advising. people to do anything that's reckless. >> Yeah, no. I mean, I purposefully have. sort of Well, I've I've really haven't. I've I basically tell people to figure. it out for themselves, right? Um but. it's only small amounts of sun exposure.

that seem to be necessary to get most of. the benefits. Like the The jump isn't. going from zero to some. It's. You don't it You don't need it a lot. Nobody really needs a lot, unless you. have really dark skin, then you can. probably get away with a lot. Um. So, yeah, just a little bit of sun. exposure. doesn't seem like a crazy. recommendation. But it's just because. the messaging has been sort of so. extreme and unyielding. Like they've. worked for so hard. to sort of.

scare people. away from any sun exposure. that I think. backing that up a little bit is sort of. uncomfortable, you know? >> I understand, but I mean, isn't history. filled with new discoveries and changing. courses? >> Yeah, and I think it'll change. But. >> One funeral. >> one funeral at a time. And it's going to. be ugly all the way. >> When you you do this kind of work, like. have you discovered any other things.

that people thought were unhealthy that. turned out to actually probably be good. for you at least if used correctly? >> Yeah, that's that's a good question. So, the one like the metaphor that I think. um we're all familiar with and that I. think maps pretty perfectly here is. >> [snorts]. >> um. diet and and fat, right? Like. about 20, you know, 25 years ago Gary. Taubes does that article in New York. Times magazine, What if Fat Doesn't Make. You Fat? And we were we were still back. in that era of you know, carbs.

cut all the fat out of your diet, carbs. are good for you. Um margarine, right? The margarine era. They the the top experts got it 100%. wrong back then. And when they got. called on it by like, you know, Taubes. and others, Nina Teicholz. You got you. guys have had Nina on. >> I've had Taubes on as well. >> Yeah, okay. Um. you know, they fought hard and they were. totally wrong. Um and we now, you know, we've we've flipped, but it took a long. time and you know, there was little.

little blood in the water during that. process. >> Oh, yeah. I was in the early days of. that and people were just warning me. about my cholesterol. What about your. cholesterol? What's really interesting. is during the heart of that um. when I you know, I eat a lot of meat. My. diet's mostly meat. And I went to the. doctor and I got all my levels checked. and he said, "Are you on some. anti-cholesterol medication?". I said, "No. Why?" And he goes, "You. have very low cholesterol.". >> Interesting. >> weird. And I go, "Dude, you if you saw.

my diet, my diet's like mostly meat and. eggs and bacon. Like that's like a giant percentage of. my diet." I I thought that was really. interesting. >> I think I mean, yeah. I think that Evans. is pretty good. Like for keto, I think. it's pretty stress-ality, you know, I. think it's pretty much spot-on on a lot. of this stuff. But but So yeah, so that like the the. the ultimate experts all said that was. going to kill you. >> Right. >> Atkins back in the day.

and they were all completely wrong. So. there's a you know, there's a long track. record of the pros being wrong. I think. on a lot of things, but that's that's a. really good example and people can wrap. their heads around that one cuz we now I. think a lot of people understand that. low-carb really works well for them. >> I mean they completely flipped the food. pyramid. >> Right, which was a beautiful thing to do. and I can't believe it happened so fast. >> Yeah, [laughter] well also with very. little pushback. It's kind of. interesting cuz the evidence had already. compounded to the fact that.

listen, for sure margarine is not a good. thing. It's not a good substitute, but. also that all these healthy fats that. you're getting from milk, that you're. getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol in eggs. Eggs you could. live off just eggs. >> Yeah, probably the perfect food. >> Yeah, like eggs are fantastic. I always. tell my friends that are vegans I was. like, "Listen man, just get some. chickens and they're your pets and they. give you free food." It's like I have. 16 chickens now and I get eggs every day.

and these chickens are pets. Like I go, "Hey ladies." You know, I feed them. I. throw the worms down. They're not afraid. of me. They they listen to me. When I. open the door, they come running out and. they run around the yard. It's like a great relationship. You get. free food. You take care of them. You. feed them. and they eat all the bugs in your yard. and you get these delicious healthy eggs. from them. >> With those beautiful orange yolks. >> Yeah, so if you're worried about if it's. an ethical thing, you don't want animal. cruelty and good for you.

That's that's a wonderful way to live, but you are sacrificing your health by. not eating pasture-raised eggs. Just get. the real ones, not the [ __ ] ones, the real ones. Unfortunately, they're. tricking people now. Some companies have. been exposed for feeding their chickens. turmeric. They they they feed them curcumin and. and turmeric and they're make it cuz it. makes their eggs a darker, more. attractive yolk.

>> I know, right? Well, that's like. it's it's so screwy, so so bizarrely. backwards. >> It is, but isn't turmeric good for you? And wouldn't turmeric that you're. getting from those eggs also be good for. you? It's like. >> Yeah, it can't hurt. I mean. >> Right? So, it's not like they're getting. them food dye. So, it's You know what I. mean? So, it's like, yeah, you're. getting these darker eggs because people. like that and the darker eggs come from. turmeric turmeric, but. Yeah. Still, you're getting turmeric. then, aren't you? It was then that how.

it works? >> I mean, that's fine, but I think the. chicken I think like it's the bugs that. sometimes help help turn them, aren't. Yeah, we get we get eggs from our. neighbor. Um, like in Vermont, everybody, right? There's chickens like. running around the road everywhere. Um. and uh yeah, they're delicious. You. Yeah, you can tell that they're getting. it from the bugs and the greens and. yeah. >> And it's super healthy. I mean, but that. that color of things is also why they. dye farm-raised salmon, which is really.

gross. So, salmon are getting that from. bugs in particular. >> Yeah, exactly. Little arthropods. Yeah, like miniature shrimp kind of. >> Yeah, that's why they have that. wonderful looking pink skin, that. orangey pink skin. >> So, in that case, the dye is maybe a. little more suspect. >> Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect cuz. it's like, you know, these farm-raised. salmon, they have pale skin cuz they're. eating [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, are there any other things that. you've. stumbled across that turned out to be.

good for you that people were averse to? >> I'm still curious about alcohol. You. know how everything has flipped on. alcohol? Like first it was like "Drink a. two a day is good for you." and then. suddenly they flipped like a year or two. ago and say "Any amount of alcohol is. bad for you." I looked down I looked at. into the studies um. and. it seems like the takeaway really should. have been. you know. moderate drinking doesn't do much of. anything to you. Like, maybe it make is. slightly good for you or slightly bad.

for you, but for like a drink a a day or. like. one to two a day. didn't seem to have a whole lot of. impact on uh mortality at all. >> And also probably reduces a little bit. of stress. >> Right. >> Relieves a little bit of social anxiety. and that alone is really beneficial. Like, how do you feel? Like, are you. happy or are you stressed out? Sometimes. a drink or two you're like "Ah, [ __ ] it. We're fine. Everything's good." Like, that alone has benefits. Like, what it.

does to your mood, that it's a social. lubricant. It'll allow you to like maybe. laugh a little bit more, have a little. bit more fun. >> Totally. Which is why I can't give it. up. Like, that that social environment. is a really nice environment to be in, you know? And if, you know, a couple. beers helps make that happen, it's a. good thing. >> I gave it up for about eight months. I I. completely I Problem is I own a comedy. club and I was there a lot and so. everybody's like "Have a drink. Have a. drink. Let's do shots." and then next. thing you know you'll I was in the gym.

the next day feeling like [ __ ] I got. tired of doing that to myself and so I. said "I'm just going to stop drinking.". Not because I'm an alcoholic. It wasn't. hard to stop. It was super easy. I just. stopped. And then I started feeling way. better. I was like "God, why was I. drinking for so long? This is so bad.". And then uh. out to dinner with my wife, had a. margarita like eight months later. I'm. like "Let's have a drink." She wasn't. drinking either. I'm like "Let's have a. drink." And I'm like "This is nice. I. like it." So now I limit myself. I just. I won't have more than like two drinks. Two drinks is a kind of my max. But two.

drinks is right. Two drinks is like. "Wee!" As long as you don't have to. drive, you're not going anywhere. You. know, if I go to the club, I'm there for. hours. >> Yeah. >> Completely sober after it's all over. It's like I wake up in the morning, I. don't feel like [ __ ] Doesn't seem to be. affecting my workouts. However, if you wear a Whoop or an Aura. ring or one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your sleep and your. recovery. >> You're not sleeping as well. >> You don't sleep as well. You don't get. the same deep sleep. >> I can tell. >> Yeah, just one glass of wine can [ __ ].

you up a little bit. >> Yeah. Yeah, and that for me that hit in. middle age. Like before that wasn't a. problem. Um but now yeah, like two. drinks I I two two does seem to be the. cut off where, you know, life functions. normally still. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, the sleep's not as restorative. somehow. >> Somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing. of when you're drinking. So I wonder if. you have like a glass of wine at dinner. at like 6:00, but you don't go to bed. till midnight. I wonder if then your. body has a chance to process it and then.

you're okay. >> Well, that Italian style, right? Like I. feel like the Mediterranean lifestyle. they they they got this pretty much. nailed down like 2,000 years ago. Um. >> Right. >> It seems to work pretty well. >> Which also brings us back to food. >> Yeah. >> Right. Cuz the way they eat is so it's. so interesting how thin they are and yet. they mostly carbs. >> I know. I know. Something's different. there. >> A lot's different and we know what it is. now. We know that there's a lot of. additives and preservatives and also.

like they don't use glyphosate and. >> Yeah. >> They have heirloom wheat. So they have. wheat that hasn't been optimized to have. a higher yield. So it doesn't have as. much complex wheat glutens and there's a. lot of issues with our food, unfortunately. >> Yeah. >> And if you eat American bread, you know, the bromine, all of the different. additives, all the [ __ ] that we put in. our food. That's so disturbing. Whenever. I go to Italy, I'm I'm so angry that. when I come back home, I can't have food. like this. Like you to seek it out. You. have to go to like certain restaurants.

that only use like Italian flour. >> Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you you look at um. those Mediterranean cultures and it just. works for them. And yeah, like you say, it's you can't explain it in terms of. like macronutrients or anything like. that. Like it's. something there's something like. synergistic about that lifestyle. I do. actually think light is part of it, too. Like, they got great light there. >> Yeah. They have great light, especially. like the Amalfi Coast, those people. >> Yeah. >> But the other thing is also less stress.

They're they're not as career focused. They're more family oriented, very. tight-knit family groups. They eat. dinner together. There's a lot of. laughing, a lot of drinking wine. A lot. of them A lot of them smoke cigarettes. You go over there like cigarettes never. went out of style over there. They're. all smoking cigarettes. And you're like, "How are you guys so. [ __ ] healthy? This is weird.". >> Yeah. Um it is it it's yeah, it'll be. interesting on cigarettes if it turns. out that. in a certain context, they're not that. damaging. And then.

out of that context, they're super. damaging. >> I have heard that with polyphenols. I've. heard that, and this is a I think. controversial as well, but it's. cigarettes taken along with olive oil. And that a lot of these people have high. olive oil rich diets, and that. cigarettes along with olive oil, that. the olive oil tends to balance out. whatever damage that the cigarettes are. doing. >> That's super interesting. >> Yeah, which kind of makes sense. >> And it's it's going to be like.

everything is going to be something like. that. It's bad in a certain context, and. then it seems to have been okay for. people in a different context. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh are there any other things that. you've noticed? Like, I know you've done. work on chocolate, right? >> A lot of a lot of work on chocolate. Yeah, I've read I like my first sort of. big magazine story, Outside magazine, um. sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy. hunt to, uh, with this German guy. It was basically. Apocalypse Now with chocolate, you know.

>> [laughter]. >> With this German guy was going upriver. into the Amazon to try to find this wild. cacao, like to work with some of the. indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao. and make like the world's first wild. chocolate. Um, so I went with him. Um, crazy crazy trip. But, uh, but yeah, I I sort of fell in. love with cacao. uh, on that trip, but it was like we. landed. we took a small plane and we're going to. land on this river and meet a canoe that. was going to take us upriver to meet. with these indigenous groups.

So, we found a a runway, right? This is. in the Bolivian Amazon. But this I've been in the Amazon all of. like 4 minutes, right? The the the plane. drops us off on this flooded runway. where like it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be. alive. Um, and then. these four guys with guns come out of. this little cabin. Uh, and we're like, "We're guard- This is actually a a. landing strip that our, you know, Colombian boss owns and we're guarding. it for him and what are you two white.

dudes doing here?" So, like all the, uh, cocaine traffic comes through this part. of the Amazon. >> Whoa. >> And we had just done what people. actually have been killed for, which is, you know, like if if a couple of white. guys drop in there, they assume you're. like the DEA or something. >> Right. >> So, they're super suspicious. And I did. I, you know, they were speaking Spanish, so I was like catching every fourth word. or something. I'm like, "This can't be. good cuz of the guns, but I. But anyway, the guy I was with, the. German guy, he negotiated with them and. finally they're like, "Okay, just give.

us a landing fee." So, we're like, "Sure.". But yeah, so that was but that was the. beginning of my chocolate journey. >> [laughter]. >> What So, what part of the Amazon were. you were you in you. >> Um, Bolivia. Uh, which you know, you. Bolivia you think of like mountains, La. Paz, but they have these lowlands which. are like straight-up like rain like. tropical rainforest. It's called the. Beni. And it's like truly lawless area, like. huge swaths of jungle, bunch of cattle. ranching as well. And all the drug.

traffic comes through there from the. Andes. So. >> And you went in there as just as a. journalist? >> Yeah. So this guy, this German guy, he. he'd been living there for 20 years. And. he was trying to get this cacao. And. he's like, "Yeah, I'm going to go meet. with these groups. Do you want to come?". And Outside had just come to me, and. they'd liked something else I'd written, and they're like, "Hey, we're Outside. magazine. What's the like freakiest. thing you you ever wanted to do? Well, you know, we'll send you there.". And I had like a little kid at the time.

So I was like, "You know, I'm not going. to be going off a 200-ft waterfall in a. kayak for you guys.". But then this this like, you know, heart. of dark chocolate thing came up. And I. was like, "I could do that for I could. be like the comic guy for them." So it. was this like ridiculous journey where. like everything went wrong. Um but we. did get some really good good chocolate. at the end of it eventually. >> So what is the benefit of wild cacao? >> Um it tastes really really good, like. better than the industrial varieties of. cacao that most chocolate's made with.

And it's just like kind of a cool story. And it can be used to support those. indigenous groups so that the forest. doesn't get cut down and turned into. more like cattle ranch. Cuz um cacao grows in the understory of. the rainforest. So it's kind of a way to monetize the. the full rainforest. >> And keep the canopy intact. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Um [snorts] what is the benefits of. cacao like health-wise? >> It's right there with with coffee. Um. you know, tons of polyphenols, little. bit of caffeine.

Uh it seems to, you know, be. anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you. happy. For some of the same reasons and. maybe some different ones as well. >> And when you say it tastes better, like. in what way? Like when you try it? >> Um a lot more like aromatics and less. bitterness. Like basically what happened. with cacao is when it became a global. product, the Europeans selected. varieties. that were high-yielding. The same thing. that happened with tomatoes and.

everything else. They were. high-yielding, but they lost. [clears throat] some of like the great. aromatic qualities that like the old. Maya cacao had had. And that's what gets grown all over the. world. Most cacao comes from Africa now. And it's it's more bitter, less. interesting, but way cheaper. So then. there's this movement that started like. 10-15 years ago of people trying to go. back to Latin America to find the like. ancient heirloom varieties that had this. great flavor and make like better.

chocolate than it ever been made before. And sort of the most ancient is the. stuff in the Amazon, which is where. cacao originated. Still growing wild. So it's it's you know, it's kind of cool. if you can go back to the, you know, primordial days and make chocolate. >> I mean the example of tomatoes is a. perfect example cuz heirloom tomatoes. are sensational. They're so delicious. >> So much better. >> They're so much better. And then you. have one of those [ __ ] McDonald's. tomatoes that looks like a piece of. paper. >> Yeah, it's just cardboard.

>> cacao? That's what it looks like? >> That is Yeah, so it's these pods and you. open up the pod. It's kind of like the. size of like a little Nerf football or. something. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> I had no idea. >> And so chocolate is made from the seeds. inside. You got to ferment them and then. roast them and then you grind them into. chocolate. >> Where can one get heirloom chocolate. made from. this ancient cacao? >> So. >> company? >> Yeah, so the place I send people is. Caputo's, which is online site. They're.

like the main importer of specialty. chocolate. That's There they are. >> Um is that other people? >> Yeah, so they Caputo's has most of the. like the great wild cacaos available on. their website. They just It's just like. retail. >> Caputo's. So, is it caputos.com? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's from Salt Lake City? >> Yeah, they've got a cool shop in Salt. Lake. >> Oh, interesting. Preserve Bolivian rainforests. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Ritual chocolate. Yeah, I've heard of. people like ritual cacao ceremonies. I'm.

like, what are you doing? >> [laughter]. >> So, that What are you doing? >> That it's it's a. Um that's a gringo thing. >> Uh-huh. >> Everyone thinks it goes back to some. like like we're referencing some ancient. Maya ceremony. >> Of course it does. >> It's It was a um a a white dude in. Guatemala named Keith. Yeah, there you. go. >> at these people. >> Right? It's kind of like ayahuasca with. training wheels. >> [laughter]. >> They do cacao. >> Yeah. >> But like what what's what can come out.

of a ritual where you take cacao? >> I mean, you know, same thing that can. come out of a ritual where you do. anything else. Like you're you're. focusing, you know, and some. mindfulness. You get a little You know, you get a little boost from the cacao, but. >> Not much. >> Yeah, it's it's more about the ritual or. >> Why is cacao What is a cacao ceremony. Why are they suddenly showing up all. over LA? Uh yeah, you can answer that one on your. own. >> So, I mean, >> [laughter]. >> Jamie, if you can call up Keith cacao, there's this guy named Keith. I think he. died recently. He's like the classic.

gringo guru with a big white beard who. would like have people in Guatemala and. he's just invented this cacao ceremony. thing. >> Oh, white people. >> But he's a. >> Damn it, white people. >> And then everyone else sort of took it. from him. There he is. >> Well, he looks like the type of guy. Look at him. Big old [ __ ] dirty pot. of cacao. >> in a costume. >> [laughter]. >> So, he started it all. >> Okay, poor Keith.

These silly people. So, um. but what there's like antioxidants in. it. Like there's other. >> Yeah. It's good for you. It's totally. good for you. It yeah, it you know, gets your heart. beating a little faster. There's some. happy drugs in there. It's got a tiny. bit of cannabinoids in it. But. And it tastes great. So. You know, what's not to like? >> Anything else? Any other. foods or substances or different things. that you found out that were beneficial?

>> Well, how you feel about oysters? I. wrote a book about oysters, too. >> I eat them all the time. >> Are you Are you a fan? >> Yeah, I like them. Are they okay? >> I mean, they're great. Uh. >> But. >> There's no butt. They're great. But I. think they're I think I think we haven't. figured out why. Do you know they're. like, you know, you're eating like a. little living being. So, I think, you. know, there's like some chi factor there. where the reason people get so excited. and feel so good when they eat oysters. it's not because of like the nutrients. It's like there's something else that's. in there, you know.

>> Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? >> There's definitely zinc. >> supposed to have an aphrodisiac effect, right? >> Yeah. So, I think that aphrodisiac thing. is like it's more about the chi, like. this living force that you're ingesting. >> This sounds like hippy talk. >> It. It does sound It does sound a little. You know, like chi's going to get chi's. going to get justified scientifically at. some point. >> Yeah. >> So, you think you're getting What's. interesting there's another friend of. mine made an argument for vegans to eat.

shellfish. He said like if you're eating. clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He. said there's more evidence that plants. are conscious than there is that these. shellfish are conscious. >> Yeah. I mean, I think yeah, plants are. pretty damn smart. So. >> Yeah, weirdly so. >> Yeah. >> And muscles and clams and oysters, they're not. They're They're They're. sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. >> Yeah. >> And they just move. And because they. move, they open and close, we've decided.

that they're animals. >> And with oysters, that's literally the. only thing they can do. Like clams at. least can, you know, dig down. Oysters, they're stuck. They They just. open and close. There's not a whole lot. going on there, for sure. >> Right. But healthy for you. >> Yeah. >> Unless you get a bad batch and then you. die. >> They are definitely a source of food. poisoning. >> Yeah, I've heard of people dying. >> Yeah. Yeah, they they kill a few people. every year. >> You know, it's interesting, my wife got. food poisoning from oysters once when we.

were on vacation. We were in Hawaii and. she ate oysters and somehow or another. she got it and I didn't. Uh, but then, uh, my daughter, who didn't eat oysters, also got the food poisoning. Because. food poisoning, apparently, can spread. through the air. >> Interesting. >> And so it's contagious. >> Yeah. If you're I guess if you're like. ralphing hard enough, you're. >> [laughter]. >> you're throwing it through the air. >> I guess. But it was really weird. And. that's how we found out that food food. poisoning is contagious. And that's one. of the reasons why they isolate people.

when they're on boats when they have. food poisoning. Because those people. could actually spread whatever that is. through the air. >> Hm. >> [ __ ] weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But that I do I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when I eat them cuz. every now and then you hear like Houston. man dies from food poisoning from. oysters. >> cold water. Cold water is his friend. >> itself is not directly contagious as it. refers to an illness caused by eating or. drinking contaminated food. However, the. specific viruses or bacteria responsible.

for the contamination are highly. contagious and can easily spread from. person to person through poor hygiene or. shared surfaces. You know, so it's contagious. So the viruses that come from food. poisoning are contagious. It's not like. Through the air. Oh, so surface contact, is that what it is? Oh, I see. So coughing and stuff, injecting. That's. why you maybe interesting the airborne. confusion. The confused. show more? Um, confuse food poisoning with highly.

contagious stomach bugs like norovirus. Uh, with viruses are not airborne. They're highly contagious can spread. through the air in tiny droplets when. someone vomits. There it is. Leading to. contaminated surfaces or breathing in. aerosolized particles. So that's what it. is. It's the coughs. >> Yeah. >> Um, okay. I think we covered it. You. think? >> Yeah, I think I think we. I think you're going to get a lot of. interesting responses.

>> So you guess what? I don't read them. So. good luck to all those haters. >> [laughter]. >> Shouting into the void. Um, I've long. suspected that sun exposure is probably. good for you and then it's really just a. matter of like how much and. mitigating the damage that you could get. if you get burnt. >> Turns out you're right. >> Yeah. I. Uh, it doesn't make sense that your body. produces vitamin D through it. It makes. you feel so good and yet somehow another. is bad. I think it's like many things. very nuanced and so I'm really happy.

that you did so much work on it. And I'm. happy you rode the storm, too. >> Well, the storm's just coming. >> I'm sure. [laughter]. Especially after this show. But uh, thank you very much and tell everybody. where your book is and how they can get. it. >> Uh, yeah. So whatever their favorite. online place, In Defense of Sunlight, Amazon, anywhere else. >> And did you do an audio version of it? >> Yeah, I they let me read it. >> Yes. >> if that was good news or not. >> Nice. I love it when someone reads their. own book. It's very important, I think. Me, too. Yeah. All right. Well, thank.

you very much. >> Thanks. >> Bye. >> [music]. [music].