Joe Rogan Experience #2515 - Chase Hughes

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Just use this, gentlemen. >> Good job. Good to see you. >> Good to see you, man. >> What's happening? How are you? >> Good. Been really good. Just got in an. awesome last night. >> I watched these videos of you describing. this intravenous DMT experience. And the first thing I said is I need to. talk to this guy.

>> Sorry about that. >> Like that seems like one of the most. insane descriptions of anything that. anybody's ever experienced. Yeah, that I've ever seen online. >> Yeah. >> So, tell me about this experience. >> So, it's. DMT and this guy makes it and they put. it into a pump and it's like an. anesthesia pump that you'd have in like. an operating room. And. essentially, they can adjust your like.

milliliters per hour dose like they. would use for anesthesia and. like they launch you off and you're. laying the the space is beautiful. It. they hold the space really well and. they can. >> What What do you mean by that? >> They hold the space really well. >> Like it's a beautiful space like that. it's this amazing place where you lay. down in the middle of the room. It's. like on a really soft pillow thing. And good great music on and like it's. it's very calm and.

these people are just unbelievably calm. and. good human beings um. to take you through the experience. And. the cool thing about this pump is that. you can adjust your altitude. So, like you could be in the middle of. this and say, "I need to go up more. I'm. I want to come down." If you need to. take a pee break uh they'll like pull. you down, you kind of go onto the runway. and then you go pee and you come back. and you launch right back up as high as. you want to go, as fast as you want to. go. >> [snorts]. >> So, it's.

5 and 1/2 hours. And we did I did one pee break, but it. is it's DMT. Like. the highest you can feel on DMT, like. the most you can see on DMT, but it's 5. and 1/2 hours of that. And the next time I go back, we're going. to mix Alzheimer's drugs with this. >> Why? >> Uh. to see how much I can bring back. To see. if it improves like the retrieval. Like.

cuz you know like when you when you're. in the DMT space, you're like. I have access to all this stuff. Like, "Oh my god, I wish I could bring this. back. I want to bring this back so bad.". And it seems like we're protected from. bringing it back. >> It does. It does. >> Like a dream. >> Yeah. It's There's There's real similar. comparisons to the dream state. >> Yeah. The dream state is very strange. So, I I've had like profound dreams. And. or or really bizarre dreams. And when I. wake up, they're so crystal clear. And.

with I go to take a pee, I have a cup of. coffee, I can't remember them anymore. >> Yeah. >> I barely barely can grip them. They just slide through your fingers. >> It's like we There is a protective layer. there. Something. >> It seems like it has to be because if. there was anything that you experienced. in the regular conscious state that was. that profound, you would remember it. forever. >> Yeah. >> Just think of a great thing. It'll just. UFC fight this weekend. I remember. everything. Oh my god, it's so like. drilled into my brain.

And that is like. nothing compared to a DMT experience. >> Yeah. And it's it it just seems like I've. never met someone who's done DMT that. would just go Oh, yeah, it's a. psychedelic. It's a hallucination. I've never met anybody that's actually. done it and then will will just go back. and say I hallucinated something. >> There's a few people that say that. I've. I've actually I've read this one piece. by this guy. I forget his discipline. I forget what. he was serious academic and his his.

position after I think he did like a. hundred DMT trips. and his position was that this is all. being concocted by your visual cortex. and your brain your imagination. That. was his position but. >> [snorts]. >> I mean why wouldn't you why wouldn't you. go to Walmart on a DMT trip then? >> I don't think. >> I don't think that's what. I just think you know because it's very. disorienting and you know you really. should sit still. But I think that. there's contrarians out there.

>> in the DMT space why don't you just see. a Target or a a 7-Eleven or something? You. >> Oh right right right. I see what you're. saying. Something that your imagination. could concoct. >> Yeah. Like a dream. Like in a dream you. might be a Target. >> Yeah and you you had on Andrew. Gallimore. >> Yes I did. >> And he talked about this world making. part of our brain. >> Yes. >> It man that really hooked me in. And and during the six-hour journey. experience whatever you want to call it. um. at the end of I mean it's DMT like. you're.

like it's just reality's gone. Like you. like everything oh yeah you see all this. stuff that you think is real? Goodbye. It's like everything's gone. And at the end of this I I on camera I. asked about was dead 39 times. Uh I wasn't concerned what what the. answer was. I just this was like am I. dead? Um. and. coming toward the end of this experience. I. was bawling. I was crying.

And it it just felt like I had to. wrap myself in some kind of ego in order. to just return back here to to come. back. There's no way for me to come back. and not have some little ego uh thing. and it made me so sad. coming back that I just didn't want to. come back at all. You know what I'm talking about? >> It's like Avatar depression times a. million. >> [laughter]. >> For people who don't know what I'm.

talking about, um. when the movie Avatar came out, it was. so wonderful, the experience and they. they they these people seemed like to. live such a righteous, peaceful. existence in the forest that people came. back and they they were depressed that. they don't live in the Avatar world. >> Yeah. >> Was it was it like a psychological. condition that was it was happening with. so many different therapists that people. started calling it Avatar depression. >> That's brilliant. It got a name. Like in.

the '90s, there was a Truman Show. syndrome. >> Right. [laughter] Right. Right. Right. >> that. >> But I mean, how badass is your. movie. that it creates a psychological. condition in people that wish that. reality was like your movie. >> Yeah. I love that. It it did feel like that. Times. >> Times a million or whatever it is. >> Yeah. And it one of the things that. I didn't know happened was my wife was. with me, Michelle. And the night before when we were at. their house, they were they just said,

you can pick a vial and I said, let. Michelle. pick pick a vial. And. I was in the other room and Michelle was. with this guy who makes the DMT. And he said, would you like to pray over. this uh DMT? And Michelle did that and I. didn't I didn't even know she prayed. over it. And the next day, and I'm not. saying there's anything here, but. when it started, the first thing that. happened was like these alien beings or. whatever kind of pinned me down on this. table and ripped me open like from.

pelvis all the way up to my neck, like. all the way open. And I could hear my. organs kind of moving around inside my. body and they're doing something in me. And the second thing was they pushed my. head back up on the table and they this. big drill bit went up inside of my nose. like all the way to the back of my head. It didn't hurt. There's no pain or. anything. And it was they were doing that for. probably 45 minutes. A long time. And it was freezing cold. And then after this journey I. told Michelle about this and she's like.

that's what I asked them to do. I asked. them to fix your heart and your brain. Cuz I have a heart thing going on and I. have a a brain disease. Which is why I. was doing this in the first place. And that was the first thing that. happened on the on the journey. I'm not saying there's causation. >> Did you get looked at afterwards to see. if they did anything? >> I haven't cuz [clears throat] it they. have to do a PET scan. And it's so much. radiation. >> Oh. >> It's like it's so much radiation I can't. even hug or sleep with my wife or or my. our our 2-year-old for like 48 hours.

It's a ton of radiation. >> Yeah, that. Yeah. What is the. condition that you have? >> I have in the brain I have mesial. temporal sclerosis. >> talked about this the last time you were. here. >> Yeah. And I [clears throat] had a. seizure like the night before our our. our last time here. >> that you said that methylene blue was. really helping you with. >> You know how many people have ripped. that out of our show and like made. commercials for their their company and. stuff out of it? >> Oh, [snorts] I'm used to that. There's. so many ads for me selling everything.

from coffee makers to hard on pills. >> And if if I don't take methylene blue. for a couple days I'll I'll go back into. the seizure territory pretty quickly. >> Really? >> Yeah. Uh but I will say just to go back to. this dream thing that you were you were. talking about. The way that I like get people to help. like understand this. Like if you're in. a I'll walk you through this really. quick. Let's say you're in a dream right. now and I'm just here in your dream. we're chilling out hanging out. And let's say you.

don't know it's a dream yet and I look. over and I say like what is that. UFO spaceship over there? How far is. that from your face right now? And you. look over at that. flying saucer thing. You'd be like, "Oh, it's eight eight feet." or something. like that. But then if I if you know it's a dream. and I ask you how far is it, you're. still going to say, "Oh, it's eight. feet.". And then I ask, "What is it made out. of?" You're going to say, "Oh, it's. aluminum." or you know, whatever that. thing's made out of. But there's no aluminum in your brain. Right? So like and then I ask again.

like, "What is it made out of?" And you. eventually will you'll get to a place. where you say it's made out of me. It's. made out of consciousness. Then I say, "What is the distance made. out of?" That entire eight feet of. distance is also made out of your. consciousness. And then I say, "Well, why did you have. to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to. see out of?". And then what are the photons? Like. you're seeing colors and all this stuff. in your dream. There's no photons. bouncing off of stuff in your dream. The. entire body is fabricated. Your eyes are.

fabricated. Like you're seeing all this. stuff without your eyeballs at all. But. you made up eyeballs to see it all. through. And then the distance like from you to. that flying saucer, you say it's eight. feet. The distance is zero. Like there's. not eight feet inside of your brain. So I kind of walk people in to show that. everything that you would do like not in. a dream like sitting here in the studio. to prove that this. pitcher of water is real uh you could do. identical you could do everything in a. dream that you would do in waking.

reality to prove that something is real. And then you realize that the distance. between you and that thing is A made up. of consciousness and B doesn't exist. >> Woah. Um. >> Does that make sense? >> It does make sense. It does make sense. Because we assume that because we have. tools to measure distance and sound and. touch and all those different. different senses that we possess that.

this is what the world's made out of. >> Yeah. And it makes sense. So, like and there's. dream logic, right? So, like if you're. all of a sudden riding on your. rhinoceros to the pizza factory, you're. like, "Oh, yeah, it's normal.". >> Right. >> Uh. so, [snorts] that if you look at like a. galaxy, it matches this the shape of. DNA. If you look at the toroidal shape. of like gravitational stuff, it matches. the shape of a red blood cell. You look. at an eyeball close-up, it looks like a. like a nebula.

And if we just look at as above, so. below, like any of that is even remotely. true, then dreams might tell us more than we. think about what's going on here in in. this what we call reality. >> Have you ever seen the comparison. between the universe itself and uh human. neural tissue? >> No. >> It's bananas. >> Is it like a Is it identical an image? >> Yeah, it's like an image of the known. universe with a an image of Is it a. brain cell or a human neural cell?

I I forget which one it was. But, um. when you look at the two of them. together, you're like, "Okay, is this. whole thing a giant fractal inside of a. fractal inside of a If that's an. infinity is. You know, infinity We'd. like to think that like this is what it. looks like. That's a brain cell and. that's the universe. >> Good lord. >> Yeah, what the. I mean. >> it's the same thing. So, it's. if at least it looks like the same. thing, right? Um. you know, when we think of infinity, we.

think of what we are here. on Earth that there is no distance that. you could travel where you find the end. That the infinite universe just keeps. going on. But, it's way crazier than that. It. might be that the entire infinite. universe that doesn't have an end is. actually a part of a cell. that's in another being. >> Yeah. >> that's in an infinite universe that has. no end that's actually just a part of a. cell. >> Yeah. >> that's in a part of an infinite it goes. on and on and on.

>> Yeah. >> And we have some evidence that that. might be the case just in the weirdness. of these supermassive black holes that. are in the center of every galaxy. So. these supermassive black we had a. Michelle Thaller on the podcast the. other day, fascinating woman. She's um. um an astrophysicist and to just. discussing all the the strangeness of. the universe the more that we experience. it. the more the deeper they look the. crazier it is. It's like the the further.

the James Webb telescope goes out the. more that they find they're like. what is going what is that? How is that. there? This is not supposed to be there. They think that there's a real. possibility that inside every black hole. is a completely new universe. >> Yeah. >> That it's some sort of a passageway. So. if there's hundreds of billions of. galaxies just in the known universe and. every one of those galaxies has a. supermassive black hole inside of it in. the center of it. You go through that. and you. are in hundreds of billions of new.

galaxies all with black holes and then. you go into those universes and. you find creatures with brains and you. get to their brain and their brain looks. like a universe and if you get closer. and closer and closer you might see. hundreds of billions of galaxies each. with black holes inside their. brain cells. >> Yes. That was well said. >> It's. >> That needs to be a short. >> But it's it's infinite. So there's no. end to that process. It's not like.

there's us and then we are a part of a. brain cell of a creature. No, we're a. part of a brain cell that's a part of a. creature that's a part of a universe. that's a part of a brain cell that's a. creature that's a part of a universe and. that's what real infinity is. There is. no end. >> Yeah, I agree with that. And and we need less certainty about. this There's so much people are. say that. >> What. >> you said about coming back from the DMT. trip, about how your ego tries to kind. of reclaim reality for you.

I think that is a genuine problem with. human beings today, in which they cling. to ideologies, to political parties, to. ethics, morals, religion, whatever it. is, that they. they connect themselves to inseparably. I think part of that is just being. afraid of the vastness of what this. experience really is. And the the way to. shield yourself from it is to pretend to. be sure. >> That's it. Yeah, it just gives me a.

little blanket of I've got this figured. out. I know what's happening. >> Yeah, it's a security blanket. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And it's it's. we need less certainty in the world. >> Yeah. >> We need more people to say as far as we. know before they say some. >> Yeah. >> that sounds science-y. As far as we. know. Why can't we just put that phrase. in front of more things? It. It if you're doing DMT, it just. or if anyone does DMT, maybe it's a. hallucination.

It but Terence McKenna described it so. well when he said death by astonishment. And. there's no words. At the moment you try. to like label anything that you see in. that DMT space, it's like you're. destroying it's an act of destruction. >> Almost. There's no words for it. They. don't exist. Cuz words. words are sounds that we make with our. face to describe known reality. And that. is there's no words for that experience. >> Yeah, and we invented language for. trading chickens and spices and stuff.

>> [laughter]. >> That's that's what language is for. >> Yeah. >> And. if you just look at like one little. science-y thing like that's weird, like. quantum entanglement. And then somebody says we can't explain. how this is like faster than light or. anything. Well, we can explain it if we. go to a dream and then say that distance. doesn't exist. Distance isn't real. >> Right. >> [snorts]. >> So, I think that's I want to know about. the UFC fight at the White House. >> [laughter]. >> To get away from super woo-woo for a. second. It was insane.

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information. Blue Chew is number one for. a reason. >> Was the temperature make make everything. different? >> It was perfect. No, the temperature was. perfect. I was very concerned about. that. I was really concerned these guys. are going to have to fight in the heat, but the the was not an issue at all. It. seemed like it was in the 70s. And uh it. was uh the storm, like miraculously just. passed us. Like there was all these weather. warnings. At one point in time, the. fight was supposed to start at 8:00 p.m.

And at one point in time, uh one of the. weather experts wanted us to start at. 10:30. >> Yeah, cuz there were. >> 10:30 at which would have been a. disaster. 10:30 at night would have a. disaster cuz it's a 6-hour show. >> Yeah. >> You know, or close to it, whatever it. is. Um 6 8 9 10 11 12 1, I guess it was 5. hours. But. somehow or another the storm just like. almost like went around the White House. I mean, I don't know.

>> mysteriously. >> I don't know what that is. I don't know. if that's science or if that's. consciousness. I don't know what steered. the storm or if it's just random luck. It could have been all the above. But um. all my fears of the weather getting in. the way of the fights were they were. null. They would they didn't mean. anything. And then there was this long. sort of um. ceremonial thing where they had jets fly. over and you know, they played music and. all this different stuff. So, by the. time we got to the actual fights, dark.

out, perfect. The weather was perfect. So, that that wasn't issue at all. And it was just. the. magnitude of the event. I know people. saw it on television and looked insane, yeah, but the magnitude of the event. being there live. So, there's the event. that's taking place on the lawn of the. White House. And that has 4,000 plus. people. >> The main event. >> Yes. That So, the the the actual UFC. So, there's. there's uh a bunch of military guys that.

are standing up in the back. There's. like a thousand of those and there's. 3,000 plus that are seated. All these. people are seated. But then. behind that, not that far, like 100. yards, 200 yards, whatever it is. I. guess it's more than that, maybe 300. yards. There's the ellipse. The ellipse has 85,000. people who got in for free. Yeah, it's it's like in the whole White. House ecosphere, whatever it is.

>> Wow. >> Yeah, so this area, they have giant. screen set up. And they have, you know, huge speakers and sound. And so, 85,000. fans are watching the fights live on the. screens, and they can see the lights of. the this claw dome in the. distance, and they could see the White. House in the distance where the fights. are taking place, but they're watching. it on massive screens with commentary. And it was insane and you could hear. them roar. So, you hear the crowd from.

here, and then you hear 85,000. people. you can hear it in the distance. It was. insane. It was insane. Just the magnitude of it. was insane. >> Unlike anything else you've ever seen. >> Un- beyond. I I mean. I'm a hyperbolic individual and I'm. always like this is the greatest, this. is awesome, but that was the wildest. experience that I've ever had in my. 20 whatever years of calling combat.

sports. There's nothing even close. Nothing even close. It was the greatest. night of fights of all time. And it was. the only night in the history of the. sport where every single fight ended by. knockout. >> Did they all? >> Every single one. Seven fights. Seven. fights. Every one of them ended by. knockout. >> Wow. >> Which never happens. >> Which is unprecedented. >> Unprecedented. >> Wow. >> It was like. the perfect experience for anybody that. had never watched the UFC before to see.

it that way at the White House like. that. I mean it was it was nuts. A huge. experience for the fans that got to be. there in the ellipse and I mean the I. saw videos these guys they were having. so much fun. And it's like everyone's in. there for free. You don't have to pay. for the tickets. There's 85,000 people. out there. They're all screaming and. cheering and the drinks are flowing and. it was wild. I mean just absolutely. wild. >> What a 250th? >> Yeah. For. >> Wow. And and it's a sport that was like.

banned just what, 15, 20 years ago or. something? >> 20 plus years ago. So, when the UFC So, when I first started working for the UFC. was in 1997. And back then, uh you had. to watch it on DirecTV. I had DirecTV. just because that was the only way to. watch the UFC. That's why I didn't have. cable. And then, um. Zuffa purchased it. So, the Fertitta. brothers and Dana White, they they. started running it in 2001. And that's. when I came aboard it again. So, I'd.

quit in '98. I worked from '97 to '98, and then I quit, and then they brought. me back in 2001. And when that was going. on, it was banned from cable, and um. they slowly started working it back. They got it on Fox Sports Net, which was. the first time I ever commentated for. the UFC. That was UFC 37 and 1/2, a very. special show that they put on for Fox. Sports Net, try to introduce people to. the sport. And so, that was the first. time it was on like cable again. And. then, they started getting pay-per-view.

buys, and it started growing and. gathering steam, but even back then, like it was like you were doing porn or. something, or snuff films, or you you. were doing something that was damaging. for your career. You know, and people would like look at. you like, "Why are you you're working. for a cage fighting organization? Why. would you do that?" Cut to. 25 years later, >> On the lawn. >> the lawn of the White House, and it is. one of the most watched sporting events.

in the history of the world. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what the total overall. views are as of now, but I know that it was like. well over a I think it was 150 million. just by just by Monday. >> Unbelievable. >> Just by Monday. So, that's like the. night of, and then people that watched. the replay that weren't there when the. fight took place cuz they heard about. it. But now, between now and between. then and now, now we're dealing with. Tuesday. Like who It's probably another. 50 or 60 million people have watched it.

>> And I'm on Paramount Plus just to just. to watch it on YouTube. >> I'm sure. >> I don't know, 13 bucks or something that. it was. But man, what a hell of an event. >> Yeah, it was an amazing event. >> I I wish I would have stayed up longer, but I watched the first few fights. It. was fantastic. >> The main event was the greatest fight of. all time. It literally was the greatest. fight of all time. Cuz the guy that won. it, Justin Gaethje, was in many books a. six to one favorite or six to one. underdog, rather. Which is crazy odds.

for a guy that was a interim lightweight. champion, fought the best of the best, one of the best to ever do it, BMF. champion. I mean, just super durable, real dangerous guy. And that's how good Ilia Topuria is. That's how good Ilia Topuria is. Ilia. Topuria, in many people's eyes, is the. most skilled of the new generation, and. the new generation is the most skilled. of all time. And Ilia was like the top. of the mountain. And most people thought. that he was going to be too much, and he.

was too much for a while, and he almost. took Justin out in the second round. And then Justin rallied. And then Ilia. it looked like he got really damaged in. either the first or the second round, and he was having real trouble seeing. out of one of his eyes. And then Justin. started landing bombs in the third. round. Ilia had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had really tried to. finish Justin in the second. And. sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much, and. you can't recover in between rounds.

And Justin recovered. And Justin started. battering Ilia in the third and fourth. And by the end of the fourth round, Ilia. quit on his stool. Yeah, he couldn't see out of either eye. Uh he he had gotten kneed into the bot. to the body real bad when he was on the. ground. Like you Justin like literally. Justin had him down with his two hands. and just smashed a knee into his. ribcage. and you could see him go like. that and that was the end of the round. and then he had to retire on his stool. I mean like. >> You think he broke a rib?

>> That probably could have happened, but I. think maybe more significantly was the. eye damage. Both of his eyes were. swollen shut. His nose was up. He. had He had taken so many punches to the. face and it looked like perhaps orbital. damage, like maybe he had a fractured. orbital cuz his his whole thing had just. swollen up on both sides. He was. unrecognizable. And you know, the guy hung in there as. long as he could, but when you can't. see, you can't see. And when you're. you're that battered, sometimes it's.

smart to stop and he's a very smart guy. and I think he realized like there is I. can't defend myself right now. I can't. see. This guy's smashing me. It's called a day. It's This is what it. is. Let's preserve my body and my brain. and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was like one of the. most epic things I've ever seen in my. life. For him to to win like that when. everybody had counted him out. He was. saying it was going to be his last. fight. It was like a retirement fight. 37 years old. Been in the game forever. You know, fought who's a who's who of.

all-time greats in the sport and this is. going to be his last fight. And he's. like, what if I can win the title at the. White House, what an ending to a career? And that's what everybody was saying. like, yeah, but. you're not going to because you're. fighting Ilia Topuria. He was like, all. right, we'll see. >> Wow. >> And he pulled it off. He pulled it It was It was insane. It. was epic. Absolutely epic. >> What do you think that What do you think. the mindset is between somebody who.

you know, you walk in as an underdog and. wind up winning even though your skills. may not be more proficient than the. other guy. What do you think the mental. difference is between them? Like. somebody who loses or wins. >> Well, there's a lot of factors. One of. the factors is that Justin has always. been incredibly durable. I mean, it. might just be a genetic thing. He even. joked around about it. Like science. needs to take a look at this hard-ass. skin I have. Like I see very rarely gets. cut at all. And he's he's like, "I got. these hard-ass bones and hard-ass skin.". He was joking around like science needs. to study this. Um and it's true though. I mean, he.

really is insanely durable. He's been. rocked and hurt before and he's been. stopped in fights before. He was knocked. out in the last second of the last round. by Mac Mac Excuse me, Max Holloway in. the BMF title. Which was an insane fight. But the guy. is just he has zero quit in him. It. doesn't exist. Like if you're looking. for quit, you go into a room, it's. empty. The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there. He's not going. to quit. He can lose cuz he's a human. But he's not going to quit. And he's. also been into the deep trenches before.

The deep trenches of these five-round. chaotic insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of. battles. He's a guy He's described as. the most violent man in the most violent. sport. That's We've all talked about him like. that for years. Since the moment he. burst onto the scene when he fought. Michael Johnson. Well, in the UFC at least. He just he's. an extraordinary dude. Just a very.

extraordinary dude. And not the most. technically skilled like Ilia looked. technically better than him. But it didn't matter. Justin found a way. to land shots, found a way to like. persevere from the early early rounds. where he was in real trouble. And just. shocked the world. It was amazing. One. of the coolest things I've ever seen in. my life. >> That's cool. >> It was amazing. >> was there. >> Oh my god. I I talked a bunch of people. into going. They didn't want to like. Shane Gillis was thinking about not. going. I'm like, "Bro, you got to go.

It's going to be epic. It's going to be. a once-ever thing. Not a. once-in-a-lifetime. Once in anybody's. lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never going to happen. again.". Probably not. >> No. >> Yeah. That's something you have to see. and experience. >> Yeah. >> And so many people are trying to make it. a partisan thing, like they're mad at. people for being there. Like, "Oh, you. support Trump." Like, it's a It's a. fight at the White House. >> Yes. >> Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like, shut the up. >> It's too much. >> Just please stop. And again, it's this. thing, the ego thing, where people are.

just they just want so badly. And on. both sides, for sure. You know, the. right celebrates this as a win for. masculinity and patriotism and all these. different things. Like, okay, settle. down. Everybody settle down. We should. all be together. And I mean, one of the. things that I wanted to do when we went. to the White House to try to push. through. psychedelics for therapy for veterans. and people, you know, first responders, people. struggling with PTSD,

is. I you need to take these steps to give. people a path to change their mind. I. think that's the title of Michael. Pollan's book, and it's a great way to. describe it. Change your mind. >> Yeah. >> Change your whole perspective. And. there's no better way to change your. whole perspective than a complete. dissolving of your ego momentarily. Just. >> Yeah. >> At least for a while, just lock it all. away, push it out, and then you get a. chance to see what it actually is doing.

And the effect that it has when you let. it back into your life. >> Yeah, how much how much of these clothes. do you want to put back on? >> Right. Right. I describe it as like. control-alt-delete for your brain. >> And then when your brain reboots, it has. one folder, and that folder is just. labeled my old Yeah. >> And you have a decision to make. Do you. go back into my old And you be. And most people do at least a little. I. do a little. >> Yeah. >> But, for sure, you recognize that it's. your old instead of thinking.

you are who you thought you were. >> Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that wasn't. didn't really belong to you. Like, it's. like we act like decorator crabs all. throughout our lives. We're just kind of. grabbing these little things. >> Yeah. >> And you you realize that. And I think. that. the just talking about this politics. thing, I think separation is the number one. greatest deception of all time. The. biggest problem with the biggest problem. that we have and the biggest deception. that we have. It's like we are separate.

And that one thing that you see and you. do it something and I mean this. therapeutically. I don't mean you like. you're taking mushrooms and going to. going to a concert. Um. when you when you do this like. therapeutic psychedelics, the first big. realization you have is like, oh. This is all me. Like we're all kind of connected. We. might be one thing, but there's. something here that's connecting all of. us. >> Yeah. Whatever that is. Whether you want to. call it consciousness or our souls are.

connected or something. >> Yeah. >> There's something where we're connected. that we're kind of denying for some. strange reason. >> And I think that that's one of the. reasons. um. I think you you maybe would agree that. we're in a loneliness pandemic. right now. Like we have more rampant. loneliness around the world than we've. ever had before. And. if you look at how this has evolved, I. I didn't know it was coffee. Thanks, man. Got you.

So, if you look. >> Cheers, sir. >> Thank you, man. If you look at this loneliness. and. people are you could stand in a room. full of people and still feel lonely. For so many people the majority of the. world right now. >> Yeah. >> is in this loneliness pandemic. So, what's really going on? And this is. my opinion. Feel free to toss it, but. we're in a in a place that's becoming. more and more performative on a daily.

basis. Just fake, artificial. Let me say. what people want to hear, let me act how. people want to uh. how I want to be perceived. >> Sure. >> And. which means that if I'm even. if I'm a little bit performative, no. matter who it is, my best friends that. put my hand put their hand on my back. say, "Chase, you're a great guy, you're. a good person." But in the back of my. mind, I know that I'm performing. I know. for a fact that probably not even my. spouse has ever seen me. >> Right. [sighs].

>> They can't like me. They can't love me. because. that's not me. >> Right. >> And I think this hyper-performance world. of I don't mean performance, I mean like. let me act out this thing. I'm going to. I'm going to act a certain way. And. cuz let's look at if you look at our. ancestor I had to worry about like you. and I, we're maybe 8 9 years apart, but. when we were in elementary school or. middle school, we did some stupid. We had to worry about 20 people making. fun of us.

And now we got to worry about 20. million. And that is a that is an existential. difference between those things. So, we. get better at hiding shame. and pretending like we don't have it. And then what if now going back to. separation, now this is what I call the the disease. of specialness. of I am special, which means I'm the. only one here pretending and everybody. else has got their figured out. And then that isolates you even further. And not realizing that everyone.

has this. Everyone has this little. crap going on. And like it. the the fear that people feel of like if. I just be real, then I'm going to get. made fun of, I'm going to get rejected, I'm going to be kicked out of the tribe. It's not real. >> It's not real, but it can be real. depending upon your circumstances. So, if you are in a very enclosed. ideological tribe and there's no. there's no tolerance for any deviation.

from whatever the narrative is. >> Yeah. >> You know, this is a real problem with. social media. This is a real problem. that. it wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm. like one of those old people that's. like, "Back in my day." But when I was. young, you were allowed to have. different opinions. Like it was normal. I had friends that were conservative. And I would make fun of them, and they. would make fun of me. And it was normal. Like you kept those friends. Because no. one was telling you to get rid of those.

friends. There was no pressure. >> Yeah. >> to be a part of a group. There was no. There was no silence is violence. There was a bunch of people. that thought differently, and you talked. about stuff. And we weren't as informed. That's a fact. We didn't know as much. about how the world works. That's a. fact. But now that we do, one of the things. that we should all be acutely aware of. with us spending so much time in. interacting with each other online is. that a lot of the people that you're. interacting with are not real. And not a.

small number. If you are on X it. you know, look, there was an FBI analyst. that he. >> Before Elon Musk What do you mean not. >> they're bots. >> Like an actual not human. >> AI bots. >> Okay. >> AI bots is a big percentage, and then. there's actual humans who work for. organizations that push narratives. You. can hire an organization to push a. certain narrative. You can hire them to. support you, or you can hire them to.

attack your enemies. You can hire. companies that will artificially create. a movement of people that agree that. this person's a bad person, that this. project's a bad project, that this is a. good idea, that he's a good person, that. he's a good this is a good politician, whatever it is. You get So, it's you're. not dealing with genuine thought. You're. dealing with And here's where. it gets really weird. I think it's natural. And I think everything is nature. And I.

think this idea that this artificial. communication that we've developed. through social media is what's really. everybody up. I don't think. that's the case. I think this is a. natural progression of nature. The idea. that our stupid creativity and. intuition and. technological ingenuity can bypass I. think is horse. >> It is nature. >> It is nature. And I think nature is. creating this. convergence. It's creating this very bizarre.

convergence of humans and artificial. intelligence through a bunch of ways. that are unproductive and a bunch of. ways that are productive, but all of it. like gathering together in a device. that's like almost impossible to resist. If there was anything else that you use. 6 hours a day or 8 hours if you're a. good person. If you're good with it. Like a lot of kids are on 7 8 9 hours a. day. Like if there's anything else like. that, you would think that person's got.

a horrible addiction. But for us, we've. accepted it as a normal part of society. And that whatever that interaction with. it that we have, that that that that. that deep connection we have is only. going to get deeper. And it's ultimately. going to lead to some sort of hive mind. And it'll probably not be a hive human. mind. only. I think it will be a a human. AI hive mind. And I think.

one of the things that's happening to us. is there's this weird like movement to. There's this a weird movement to. discredit. traditional femininity and traditional. masculinity. And there's this. bizarre over-celebration. of outliers, of weird gender people, of. people that are confused with their. gender. And I think that's because if. you play that out, this is a new thing.

Again, I'm an old man, but when I was a. young guy, that would did not There was. cross-dressers, there was guys that got. off on wearing women's clothes. There. was There was There was always stuff. like that. There's always been people. with gender dysphoria, but there was. never like this. And this is also coming. at a time where microplastics are. disrupting our endocrine systems. >> Big time. >> Big time. So, testosterone levels are. dropping. We're like, "Oh my god, it's a. crisis. What do we do about it?". It's natural. Our use of plastic is. probably natural. It's probably all.

somehow or another connected to take us. out of our territorial primate bodies. and move us into some new stage of. existence. >> Like some post-biological. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. I I think it's inevitable, and. I'm not fighting it. >> Does Elon agree with that? Like we're moving toward that direction. >> Well, he most certainly thinks that we. are moving into a direction where we. converge. And um I mean, he said about. This is what I mean, the dude's.

literally cutting holes in people's. heads and shoving circuits in. there. >> Yeah. >> And doing a lot of wild with it. I. mean, people are using their their eyes. like aimbots, and a paralyzed gentleman. that we have had on the podcast who was. the first Neuralink patient. >> I watched that. Yeah. >> He He said it's like a cheat code. Like. he cuz he look where he looks, that's. where the cursor goes, and he just. shoots people. Pow pow. You know, like. he's shooting people with his mind. >> on a video game or something. >> video games with his mind, and he's like. excellent at it. Well, you got to think well, eventually.

you'll be able to move your body that. way. And then eventually, you'll have. all sorts of other tools that didn't. exist before. And one of the things that. Elon has famously said is, "You're going. to be able to talk without words.". That's the hive mind. We're moving. towards that. And this gets us into all. this weird UAP Like, what are. these aliens? What are these experiences. that people are having? Like, what is. this all a mass hallucination? Is it us. from the future? Is it us from the past? Is it another species that's far more.

advanced than us that's come down here. to monitor us and shepherd us through. our very difficult time? Um whatever it is, they seem to be what. we're going to be if we keep going in. this direction. Our brains are far. larger than monkeys. >> Yeah. >> Our bodies are far weaker, pound for. pound, than any of the other primates. So, what do they look like? They look. like these spindly things with. no muscles and giant heads. >> Yeah. >> they communicate telepathically. Universally. Like, everyone from all. over the world, every planet or every.

country, rather, that's experienced. these creatures, they all say the same thing. They all. say they communicate with them. telepathically. Which. that's where we're going. >> Which is exactly what you experience on. DMT. >> Right. >> And and like, you can get a a a test. drive of of what that's like. >> Do you know that the original when the. the original scientists or I guess. whether anthropologists or what kind of. people were studying uh ayahuasca when. they first went down to the Amazon? Um. they wanted to call harmine telepathine.

They didn't know that it had already. because of the rules of scientific. nomenclature, it would have it already. been named. So, they they didn't know. So, this substance that these people had. created, one of the aspects of it, they wanted to. talk they wanted to talk to it as. telepathine. They wanted to refer to it. that way. So, they that was what they. were going to call it scientifically. >> Wow. >> Because they had experienced these. telepathic moments while on it. But because it had already been named, they weren't allowed to rename it. So, they just stuck with harmine. But.

harmine had a real chance of being. called telepathine. >> That's beautiful. >> Wild. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And. it just seems like consciousness is. coming to the forefront of every debate. right now. >> Yeah. >> The Telepathy Tapes shot out of of a. cannon. Like nobody's ever heard of that. stuff. And I think you had the director. or something on the show. >> And it just seems like. the level of certainty that some people.

have about consciousness is adorable. >> Yeah. >> Adorable to me. It's like we're these. little hairless monkeys and we're like. every generation is like oh yeah, that. we didn't know 100 years ago, but now we. know. >> [laughter]. >> We know now. >> Right. >> It's just ridiculous. >> Yeah, but that's we that's the ego, right? >> That's the certainty. We need that. certainty. I think. we're at a place where curiosity. maybe except for politics, curiosity.

isn't really dangerous. anymore. It's like people got are scared to be. publicly curious or to be public. question something. Like why is this. here? Why is that there? Do you know who Ignaz Semmelweis was? >> No. >> He was a a doctor. Back in the day. No idea what year it. was, but it's very very early days. He was the guy who said, "Hey, maybe in. between these operating room patients, what if we wash this blood off of our. hands before I go do this next. operation?".

>> [laughter]. >> And he got laughed out of the room and. then eventually thrown into an insane. insane asylum where he died. for questioning this thing. And it seems like so much of what's. going on with like psychedelics research. even though like. document after document is showing it's. the most effective thing for PTSD and. anxiety and depression and addiction and. all this other stuff and. I'm not a champion researcher in any of. this stuff, but it seems like.

kind of coming out, people are getting. the same treatment as as this guy did. when they're coming out, even though. like it's been documented so well. And it's still a uh a schedule one drug. >> Well, I think now that's changing. And I think there's an I think one of. the things that's changing it is the. acceptance of it by the right. And one. of the. some of them at least. The old boomers, they don't want to let go. But, the. young guys, like especially special. forces guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind.

of guys that come back, so many of their. buddies have had experiences and then. recognize when one of their friends is. struggling and take them to have these. experiences. And that word's getting. out. Shawn Ryan's responsible for a lot. of that cuz he's he's talked really. openly about it. And obviously he has a. huge platform. Um but, Marcus Luttrell, you know, him talking about it. And then. Rick Perry, the former governor of. Texas, Republican governor of Texas who. hated marijuana, hated psychedelics,

thought it was all just a bunch of hippy. Well, he had brain atrophy, natural. age-related brain atrophy. And the. doctor said, "Oh, it's just pretty. normal, you know, standard. You're. fine." Uh goes and does this ibogaine. session, comes back. >> it himself? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a couple. He's. done a few. Goes and does this ibogaine. session, uh comes back, the doctor says, "You. have like a 25% improvement improvement, rather, in your brain atrophy." So, then. 6 months later, he goes back again for.

another scan, his brain atrophy's gone. It's gone. He says he feels different, he thinks. different, he feels better, like his. mind works better. So, it's not just an. experience, ibogaine in particular, it. seems to be neuroregenerative in a. profound way. That if this was a drug. that you could patent, the. pharmaceutical drug companies would be. all over this. >> Yeah. And and it'll be the it's proving. to be one of the most effective drugs. ever tested. If you're if you're looking.

at like efficacy versus like a sample. size, it's one of the most effective. ever tested. Andy Stumpf and I just did a show about. it. We're talking about this stuff and. and he's brought a lot of awareness to. this. And. if I think if we could get a little bit. of awareness to it, I think we could. cure a lot of this stuff, but I think. the number one thing is like is there a. way that we can help to get this faster. to people. And I I know. >> They're working on it. Brian Hubbard and.

Rick Perry, that mean Rick Perry's said. openly that this is my life's mission. now. You know. >> Really? >> Yeah, I mean former governor, Republican. governor of Texas. >> Yeah. >> His life's mission is to promote. psychedelics. >> I'm so glad. >> Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another. Ibogaine is the best one to start out. with because Ibogaine has zero. recreational use. It's zero. You It's. not fun. Nobody likes it. It's not a. good time. You throw up, you. yourself, you you freak out for 24.

hours, but when you come back, you're a. different person. And if you're willing. to do that, if you're willing to do. that, you can change. You can you can do. a lot of fixing. All that's And also. maybe even more importantly be aware of. what these little traps, these little. these little deeply carved grooves that. your consciousness seems to comfortably. slip into over and over again, whether. it's alcoholism or gambling or whatever. it is, it seems to just shut those down.

in a very profound way that you can't. get anywhere else. >> Yeah, and it's just it can I think it. zooms you out to where you're like, oh. I thought all that was important. Like you're talking about zooming out on. these galaxies within galaxies and black. holes and stuff, but it gives you that. perspective like woah. I thought I was really special. I. thought I was super important. I. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is one of the. things that most psychedelics do. They. remove that idea completely. They go,

"This is you got to get rid of this. This is tripping you up. You're carrying. this weight around everywhere. and it's really stopping your progress.". >> Yeah. And it's it's kind of like uh. it's like you're in a video game and. then somebody. uh comes back and be like, "Hey, man. Uh. here's the way that here's the you. need to actually worry about. You don't. need to do all this other stuff.". >> Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah, like a a little helper guy in the. video game. >> Yeah. Guys, got to come with me. This is. the wrong room. >> Yeah. >> They're coming. We got to get out of. this room. >> Don't do that quest.

>> Yeah. That's that's what it is. And I mean, I'm a. I'm a hypnosis. uh guy. I studied all the brainwashing. interrogation uh kind of stuff. It it This is the fastest way I think. And I've studied every possible way to. change human behavior that. that probably has ever been researched. And this is. bar none the fastest. And I think the. the one of the reasons that it helps. people so much and I I don't want to. This is going to turn into a 2-hour uh.

psychedelics discussion, but it's your. show. >> I don't care. >> Okay. Uh I think it's because perspective. shifting is what happens. Like it if. you're looking at life and you're you. have this little GoPro as your. consciousness and you're looking at this. level, it just snatches that thing up. and zooms it out and puts it in another. location where you're like, "Oh my god, I had no idea it was like this.". >> Right. >> And it seems to be that that. perspective, just the shift in. perspective, seems to be the number one.

thing that psychedelics produce uh. therapeutically. And. that's the thing that like cognitive. behavioral therapy is is trying to get. done over the course of like 10 or 12. years or you know, however long it. takes. Uh but it's just seems like it does it. so fast. in a profound way. And the stuff is. non-addictive, uh non-toxic, uh you're. not going to. It's not a street drug. You're not going. to see people out there on the street. selling. like DMT capsules. And And DMT, I would.

say, similar to Ibogaine, it's not. recreational. >> I think it is. >> You think DMT's recreational? >> Yeah. I think there's a lot of people. that recreationally do it. I think that. would be your thought. You know, oh, just do this and have. >> fun. And then once you do it, it's no longer. recreational. >> Have you ever. >> Once you It's too profound to be just. purely recreational. >> Yeah. Uh you've heard of people getting. banned. >> Yes, I have. >> Jamie and I were just talking about. this. >> Yeah. I knew a guy who was a tattoo.

artist who got banned. >> And. you can keep taking DMT. Like you can go. take 10 hits on a a DMT vape pen or. something, and you're not going. anywhere. >> Isn't that nuts? >> It's insane. >> It's like they just decide, No, no, no. >> Yeah. >> You're doing this for the wrong reasons. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> I listened to one guy describe it, and. he's like, it's basically like you're. knocking on the door of a nightclub, and. like the the little [laughter] thing. opens up. It's like, no, you're not. coming in. >> You got to think, like, what are they.

doing wrong? >> Yeah, I think it maybe going in with ego. seems to be one of the things I see. that's in common and people and people. trying just treating it like a little. recreational thing. >> The ego thing is a problem even within. psychedelics cuz there's sort of a carve. out that happens, which I always. refer to as spiritual narcissism. There's a bunch of people that do it. that somehow or another want to be a a. guru or a leader and to show you that. they're somehow or another better. because they have had these experiences,

they know more, and they pretend they. know more. They pretend they know more, and then they get a whole bunch of. people that are, you know, very. suggestible, and those people sort of. listen to them, and then that's how you. start a cult. And this there's something. >> Yeah. >> to that. There's a specific type of. narcissism that occurs um from regular. psychedelic use when people want to like. lead groups of people. >> Yeah. And I think if you go into a a. journey or two with no ego, do you know. what you learn? Less. Like you're less certain every.

time. >> Oh, yeah. >> About the world. >> From the moment you get in there, you're. like, oh, how is this real? How do How. would How is this available 15 seconds. away from normal reality? >> Yes. Yeah. And it. I I definitely. think that. we're moving forward. If we move forward. with psychedelics, our species is going. to move forward. >> Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. And. I think I I think all the time what. would have happened if that sweeping.

psychedelics acts, the Controlled. Substances Act of 1970, hadn't been. enacted. If this stuff had been. available to people. for the last, you know, 56 years, what. would that be like? >> Yeah, what would the '94 Ford Taurus. actually look like? >> [laughter]. >> It'd be dope. It'd look like a '69 Mustang. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Cuz those are the people that were doing. drugs. >> Exactly. >> there's no. there's no other explanation in my mind.

why cars started looking like. >> And music. >> Yeah. >> Went downhill. Well, we still have. things. We have some good music. Like. Depeche Mode. >> a bunch of people that still did drugs. But there's there was a giant change. between 1950 and 1960 with automobiles, with music, with everything. And I think. a large part of that, if you're really. being honest, a large part of that is. psychedelics. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you look look. Have you ever gone into a huge mosque. and looked up at the ceiling? >> Oh, it's incredible.

>> It looks like exactly like what you see. on all this stuff. I'll I'll go no. further on the topic, but um. it and just all the ancient artwork. It's very so psychedelic and beautiful. It's like they got written out of. history somehow. And I think. there's a difference between drugs and. medicine. >> Mhm. >> Can we take a pee break? >> Sure. Sure. Go ahead. Take a pee break. I'm good, but I'll hold. >> I think it's the coffee. >> Yeah. >> We'll be right back. This episode is.

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absolutely a DMT experience. So, but here's the question. >> Like I feel like I've been to that. >> Right. How about this location? I mean that looks super DMT. >> I've spent time there. Not in that. mosque, but like in that. dimension. >> What is that one, Jamie, to the upper. left? You just you you scroll up up left. up up left corner. That Yeah, look at. that. >> I I just doesn't. >> What the is that? >> Is that 3D? >> It doesn't. >> Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think. that's Alex Grey's place.

Is it? >> This says it's in Iran. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh my god. >> Well, you know what Alex Gray's doing? Do you know Alex Gray, the visionary. artist? Yeah. So, his Chapel of Sacred. Mirrors, this he has a real church that. they built based on his artwork. >> Wow. >> It's incredible. >> Non-denominational. >> Yeah, it's just like. >> Like a Rothko, like the Rothko Chapel. >> You know, he's one of those guys, you. know what I was talking about with. spiritual narcissism running a group? He's the He's the opposite of that. >> Yeah. Like.

>> is he's pure. And his place, like this. is his artwork, but this is his place. And if you look at the outside of it, that's the outside of the place. >> That is so cool. >> So, the outside of the place is. basically like 3D printed artwork of his. that they've constructed into a. building. I don't even know how he did it. It must. have cost a load of money. A bunch. of people donated. But, the inside of. his I think. that is So, he used to have a place in. New York City that was like a gallery. that was the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors.

So, where is that? >> His daughter does a lot of painting now. >> So, that is it. That's on the Hudson. Yeah, in the Hudson Valley. I mean. he's incredible. incredible artist and his ability to. capture that experience. Like that one, if you go back Oh, actually, scroll down. to lower left. Right there, the. Egyptian-looking one. Lower left right. there. Bam. I've seen that, dude. >> Oh, yeah. >> I've 100% seen that. I've seen that, too. But, go back to the other one that. we were just looking at.

No, that's not the same. That's the one. I've seen. I've literally seen that. I've seen that those and they move and. change and morph. >> Yeah. >> He's just able to nail it. >> I don't know how he does that. >> [sighs]. >> He's incredible. >> Uh great One, he's a good artist. But, two, being able to bring that back with. coherence. >> Uh-huh. >> you can kind of show someone what it's. like. I remember seeing that face. and I was like in in the DMT space, I. was like, is that me? And right when I.

said that, the mouth moved exactly like. my mouth, and I was like, that is me. >> Well, you're it, and it's you, and. you're everyone. >> Yeah. >> You're everyone, and it's everyone. >> Yeah. The. I it's The weird thing is with the. mosques, if you go back to some of those. images, please, of the mosques, the. first one that you pulled up, the. ceiling. What were they doing? Not that one. Um. the the original one that you pulled up. That one, yeah. Like that's very, very. DMT. So like, what were they doing that.

they saw this? And is that Was that a. part of their religion at one point in. time? And has that been forgotten? Like, what is it? Like, why why did that exist? Go back to. the one the first one, please. >> It had to. >> That one. >> This color seems a little sus. >> Oh, really? You think it's AI? >> Yeah. I just I've just seen so much AI stuff. in the last year. >> Right. Could be. >> Well, go to that that website. >> rather. I mean, the photo just looks a. little. >> I see.

>> Go to that website where it says 50. mesmerizing mosques. >> Yeah, if it says where it is, then I'd. totally Yeah, it said where it is. >> It's in Iran. We probably blew that up. already. >> Uh God, I hope not. >> I hope not, too. I mean, didn't Israel blow up a bunch of. like ancient Christian. places in Lebanon? I believe they did. >> I don't know. >> But this is the same place. So that's a. whatever that place is. Is that the same place? Yeah. That is a.

very psychedelic place. Okay, look at. that one. That's nuts. So what were they. doing? >> Is that 3D? >> like yeah, it's like a 3D photo, so it's. manipulated in a weird way. >> Okay, okay. So that's like a fish eye. Right. >> But either way, just the designs themselves are the. actual designs. So like, what were they. doing that they wanted that to be. represented. And is that missing? Cuz there's a great book called The. Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. Have you. ever read that? The John Marco Allegro. book?

>> Yeah. So, John Marco Allegro, who is an. ordained minister, but he was agnostic, and he was a guy that studied theology, and his conclusion after year I mean, even being an ordained minister, his. conclusion was that like it's probably. not anyone religion doesn't have it. right. >> Yeah. >> And so, he was one of the people that. was brought on to decipher the Dead Sea. Scrolls. He deciphers it for 14 years he. works on it, and he writes this book. called The Sacred Mushroom and the. Cross, where he believes that the entire. story of Christianity is connected to.

the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms. and fertility cults. >> Yeah. Have you seen like Jamie, am I allowed. to ask Jamie to pull something? >> Sure. Yeah. >> That like one of the original paintings. of Jesus was him with a bunch of. mushrooms. >> Right. >> And it. >> Yeah. Well, the Adam and Eve the fresco. in France. So, that Adam and Eve fresco. that's painted on this God, I want to. say it's at least a thousand years old. It's painted on this wall in France is.

Adam and Eve and the tree of life, and. the tree of life is mushrooms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's. it's the tree of knowledge. The fruit of. knowledge. >> Right. Right, it's not the tree of life. It's. the fruit of knowledge. But this. this story of it like that. like what is the actual reference to why. in the Bible I don't want to paraphrase. it as to why. God told them not to eat from the fruit. of that tree.

Pull put that into perplexity. What did. God say to Adam? By the way, everybody. blaming Eve Adam was the only one who. talked to God. We don't even know if Adam told Eve. He. might have forgot to tell her and then. blame the whole human race suffering. forever. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah, I. read that read that over and over again. I'm like, where does it say that Adam. told Eve? It doesn't anywhere. God told Adam he eat from any tree in. the garden except for the tree of. knowledge of good and evil and that if.

he ate from it, he would surely die. You. are free to eat from any tree in the. garden, but you must not eat from the. tree of knowledge of good and evil for. when you eat from it, you will certainly. die. >> Okay, I'm with that man. >> Right, you will die what? Ego death? Because if that's what it is. >> Yeah. >> And then there's the weird thing is that. the whole connection between the Amanita. Muscaria and um the psychedelic book uh.

or rather the sacred mushroom in the. croc cross book is that the Amanita. Muscaria is a red. mushroom that looks like an apple and in. fact the term like there's like. confusion as to whether or not the term. apple is actually. the meaning the a red thing and that it. might not actually be an apple, but it. might actually be the original version. of it might have been the Amanita. And. then you have to think. how many thousands of years has this.

been around that it took how many. different people have translated it? How. many different people have passed on the. story? Like what was the source? What. was the original story? >> And why delete it? >> Right. How does this get deleted so. like pervasively? >> Oh yeah, around the whole world. >> And have you heard the Christmas. traditions as well? >> Oh yeah, yeah. Santa Claus is a. mushroom. >> Oh wow. Oh my gosh. [laughter]. >> And it's the same mushroom, the Amanita. Muscaria. The weird thing about the. Amanita Muscaria is it doesn't like not.

a lot of people have had psychedelic. experiences on it. I try it's very weird. mushroom. >> Do you think it evolved maybe over time? >> well could have. Um McKenna had some. thoughts on it. He They that it could be. uh seasonal. It could be location. It. could be like where it is. It could be. genetic variations. Could be very. There's could be a lot bunch of. different factors. >> And if you consume it by way of reindeer. piss. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Well, not only that, people drink their. piss when they consume it and it gives. them like the second dose, the second.

burst. So, apparently the psychedelic. compounds come through the urine and if. you drink it, you just get a full. straight blast. >> Yeah. >> And reindeer or have been known to like. knock shamans out of the way to drink. their their piss. Because the reindeer are addicted to. this mushroom, which is why they fly. in the Santa Claus story. >> Yeah. [laughter]. It's And I heard the story these shamans. would go around pulled by dog sleds or. something. >> Mhm. >> And si- the snow was so high that they.

would drop the stuff down the chimney to. these people. And that was fresh mushrooms or fresh. amanita or something and in order to dry. it out, you'd have to hang it by the. fire. >> Right. And you hang it over the trees, too. The people would put it on trees. and that's where the decorating the. Christmas tree is. Also, those. mushrooms, the amanita muscaria has a. mycorrhizal relationship with coniferous. trees. >> I didn't know this. >> Yeah. So, that's where they grow. They. grow underneath the trees just like the. brightly packaged.

presents that are underneath the trees. on Christmas. >> This story is. >> It's a crazy story. >> We. >> It's like what did we What did we. forget? >> Yeah. >> How much did we forget? >> What's been revised? >> Right. >> We just think about what we're just. talking about inside of our generation. So, the 1970 Controlled Substances Act. Now, that is a. a That's a a government that's uh. restricting its citizens and trying to. control its citizens and one of the ways. it does it is limit their psychedelic.

experiences. >> Yeah. >> That's not the only time that's. happened, right? That's the Eleusinian. Mysteries. That's from Brian Muraresku's. book. Um The Immortality Key. Like this this. is what they did back then. They banned. these rituals. Why? Cuz it's very. difficult to control people when you. realize that we're all one. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's almost impossible. It. doesn't work. They don't want to listen. You don't want to do it. You know, you. start getting your lawmakers and your. military people start doing it. Well, then wars becomes impossible. Absolutely impossible at that point.

>> Cuz that's me. I'm I'm hurting myself. Right. Doing all this. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Man, it's insane. >> It is insane. >> It it I want to I wish there was like on. a Google Doc how you can look at. revision history. I wish there was something like that for. our race, our species. >> Right. Right. >> Just so much has been changed and. modified and and we have historians, but. we don't They're they're studying. something that's been permitted and. something that's been officially.

released and. this is more certainty. It's just more. certainty. Like, oh that reindeer story, that's cuz I got this book from. >> Yeah, they don't know it's. >> Lichtensteiner or you know, whatever. >> [clears throat]. >> from this historian. >> It's plea to authority that you have the. answers. you don't have the. answers. >> Yeah. >> You definitely don't. You can't It's not. possible. You can't have those answers. >> Yeah. And we're we're we're in an age where. this is proving to help with so many.

other things. And it's not just. depression, but it's like Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, myasthenia. gravis, uh. multiple sclerosis, um autism it's helping with. >> Yeah. >> Did you see that woman that had dementia. that took 5 g of mushrooms and slept for. like 19 hours and woke up and then she. could talk? >> No. >> You didn't see that story? >> No. >> Yeah, it was a recent story. There was a. woman she was non-verbal. She couldn't. communicate, couldn't dress herself, couldn't walk, couldn't do anything.

Took 5 g of mushrooms, slept for 19. hours, came back, started communicating, looking people in the eye, was able to. change herself, was able to walk around. >> How beautiful. >> Crazy. And then with subsequent doses, her condition improved even more. Yeah. >> And you had uh. I think it was Paul Stamets on and he. helped his mother through cancer, I. think. Like stage three cancer with. turkey tail or something. I can't I. can't remember what it was. >> Well, there's a bunch of mushrooms that. help with inflammation. There's a bunch. of mushrooms that help with uh cognitive.

function. You know, lion's mane is uh. famous for that. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's there's some weird. relationship that we have with fungus. And one of the interesting things about. fungus, we think of it as like a plant, but it's not. It breathes air. Breathes. air like people do. It's a weird thing. And it also can survive in a vacuum. It. can survive in the vacuum of space. Yeah, which is the panspermia notion. that mushroom spores were.

came here riding on an asteroid, slammed. into the Earth, and it might be one of the reasons why. we're people in the first place. That's. McKenna's idea. >> Yeah. Of of how we like separated from. our ancestral like Cro-Magnon. >> Yeah. >> uh roots. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, this whole idea that. people were created by aliens. Yeah, maybe. Maybe those aliens are mushrooms. I mean, or maybe mushrooms is the way. that aliens created people. >> Yeah. >> It you know, it it might be just how you.

add a little bit of fertilizer to the. tomato plants to make them awesome. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And it's just every generation, like. this generation says, "Oh, we're in this. computer simulation right now.". >> Mhm. >> But you know, during the Industrial. Revolution, the universe was a machine. >> Right. >> We started doing electricity and the. universe was energy and vibration. >> Yeah. >> And now we invent computers and all of a. sudden the universe is a computer. It's. just every iteration. So I I tend to think that any theory. that assumes humans are super special.

uh I'm a little skeptical. >> Yeah. >> Because it assumes that A. like these ancient like. way up high beings have like a MacBook. that they're trying to run this on. And they're like, "Well, the hard drive. would need to be the size of the solar. system." Like just assuming that they. have the same that we do. >> Right. >> It's unbelievable. >> [snorts]. >> Yeah. That's a That's a funny. comparison. They used to think the. universe was a machine.

It's apt. It's so dead on. It's uh we always want to try to figure. it out. I think it's way more. complicated. And I think the more we figure it out, the more we realize it's way more. complicated. And it it it is all. connected. Like people are super. special. We really are. But so is. everything else. >> Exactly. >> Everything's super special. This is uh. and everything is weirdly connected. >> Yeah. And even if you look at regular ass. science, just basic ass science, and you. look at an Alan Watts quote of like we.

are the universe experiencing itself, that's just regular science. If we are. the Big Bang, then we are the universe. and we are experiencing it itself. And you don't need to do any stretches. of imagination for that to be true. >> And Roger Penrose uh. doesn't even think the Big Bang is the. start of the universe. He thinks it's a series of Big Bangs. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah, he thinks it's like a never-ending. cycle. >> Did you have him on? >> Yeah, a long time ago. >> Wow. >> What year we have uh Roger Penrose on?

>> Isn't it Sir Penrose now? >> Yes. >> Didn't he get. >> Sir. >> knighted? >> I'm American though. I tend to shy away. from those. >> Sir Roger. >> foolish. knight. Cuz I mean that's another thing. Oh, he's a knight. That's a king. >> You know the. Did I. I don't know if we talked about it last. time. Have I told you that like I figured out. a way to edit memory. >> No. >> Like you can do it with hypnosis. >> So, I know that you can introduce false. memories into people's heads.

>> Yeah. >> And I know that people create their own. false memories. >> Yeah. >> So, you found a way to do that different. than that? >> Yes. And. uh I make videos similar to this on my. you my YouTube channel. But I wanted to. walk you through this process cuz I. think you would love it. >> Okay. >> Um. So, if I want somebody to be. able to edit a memory, I need to make. them good at that skill first. So, and we already edit memories. Every. time we touch a memory, like if I think.

back to my wedding right now, I'll edit. something and I will I'll do it. unknowingly. >> Right. >> So, if if our brain is already an expert. at making these changes, and then like. before I I stop thinking about that. wedding, my brain automatically clicks. file save. Right? And then so the next time I look. back on it, the memory's going to be. there, but it won't I won't see it as an. edit. I'll just see it as that's the memory. No matter how many times I change it. Does that make sense?

>> Yes. >> Okay. >> [snorts]. >> So, first we need to get them to start. doing some of that stuff consciously. Um. So, if you take somebody back to let's. say a childhood bedroom when they're. seven. Okay? And you you do it very vividly with. hypnosis. So, like you're you're going. in their file cabinet. You let them. explore the bedroom, the details, all. this kind of stuff. You make it. extremely vivid and and coherent. And then you have them pick up like a a. pencil. A really sharp, brand new.

pencil, maybe from their pencil box from. school or something. And they go over by the light switch in. the bedroom and just make one dot on a. wall. Um and I figured this out talking to. game developers. Uh and I was talking to. game developers about how people figure. out ways to exit the map, to exit the. playable area of the game, cuz it's kind. of feels like that's what psychedelics. do. There's like it lets us kind of exit. this little. playable map temporarily.

So one of these game developers said, "Oh, you just if you can get somebody to. modify one pixel, then they can modify. the entire map.". So if if one pixel is glitching, then we. can glitch they can glitch all kinds of. stuff. So I thought maybe we can do that in. humans. So I've done this hundreds of times. Um so you just make a mark on the wall. with a pencil, and then you kind of fast. forward their life. So like you bring. them to like say they were six, now. we're going to bring them back into the. room when they're eight. The bed sheets.

are different, maybe the wall color. changed, something like that. But the. one thing they can do is walk over there. to light switch and see that that tiny. little dot is still there. So something. and now you're starting to see that. there's permanence through time. Does that make sense so far? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> So if if we can get them to do that like. 50 times, tiny change. >> You doing it through hypnosis? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Oh, I mean hypnosis is such a loaded. >> Right. >> crazy word. They're they're relaxed, they feel safe, and their brain is in.

theta brain wave state most of the time, which is around 7 hertz. >> Yeah, I've been hypnotized um and I. thought it was going to be like uh I. didn't know what was going on. I was in. another world. No, it's a it's a very. odd state of mind. >> Yeah. It's kind of like guided. meditation or. >> But you feel very conscious. It's not. and I remembered it. It wasn't. >> Yeah. >> Didn't wake up my pants off. It was. pretty normal. >> Yeah. >> Didn't become a Manchurian Candidate. >> As far as you know. >> As far as I know, right.

>> So. uh if you can do this 15, 20, 30 times. of one pixel at a time and show that. it's permanent through time, then you. can go back to other events. And instead. of editing the memory itself, you teach. them how to shift perspective. So you. Now you take them through 30 more events. really quick. A true events, a birthday. party, a dinner, adult life, children, doesn't matter. And now like let's say I'm at at a. dinner party. Can I jump from one body. to another and experience the event. through that lens? So now So first we. make them an expert at editing memory.

and seeing permanence in time. Second is perspective shifting in real. memory. So I can jump across the table. I can be at my own wedding and maybe be. somebody in the front row and like just. shift their perspective in memory. The final layer is exactly what. psychedelics do. So the final layer is. go back to that event when you got. kicked in the nuts and everybody laughed. at you in elementary school or whatever. And you can reprocess that memory in a. very short amount of time as an adult.

with the perspective of an adult. >> So meaning like so if you had a. traumatic event in high school where. somebody beat you up in front of. everybody and everybody mocked you and. it just like destroyed your year and. destroyed your confidence, you can go. back and shift this person's experience. >> Yeah, and and instead of modify the. memory like oh that never happened. Uh. the memory stays, the perspective. changes. So now in Now you show. permanence over time. So that that has. downstream effects for all kinds of.

stuff later in life. So this is when a. script got written of I've got to be. tough, I've got to be loud or somebody's. going to hurt me or You know what I. mean? Like one of these little childhood. scripts. Um so you get the downstream effect so. you can go in there and there's probably. you could probably edit memories. I've. always been nervous to modify stuff. that's way more than like a pixel or. something insignificant. But the memory stays the same, the. perspective is what changes and you can. show that it it's got a demonstrable. effect downstream of that. Their whole.

life can can be different after that. day. And it's just like a mushroom That's. exactly what. psychedelics do. It's this massive perspective shift on. memory. >> And so, is this something that you're. actively doing? >> Uh with clients, I'll do this on. occasion. But now it. >> Is anybody else doing it? >> Maybe a few There's probably a few. people doing it. >> And is there any like times where you. guys get together and discuss techniques. and what's effective and what's not.

effective and. >> It should be. Uh we don't. >> Right, because it seems like this is. it's kind of a big deal and it seems. like someone could. it up. Like it it has the potential for. delusional perspective shifting. There's. a. >> Yeah. It's I mean, you got to be. responsible about it. But nowadays, I. think that that psychedelics can achieve. a lot of that without having to go. through some like I need you to go back. to the original event and like having me. vocally take you back there using this.

archaic stupid ass language uh that. can't even describe a psychedelic. experience with this language. >> Right. >> Um. This is what I was doing mostly before. psychedelics. Then you know how I got. into psychedelics? It was uh the Spirit. Molecule movie that you You did the. voiceover for it. And that was what kind. of introduced me to the entire the field. of everything where I thought, "Wow, this. it just just doesn't seem like a. recreational drug." And that was the big. shift was watching that that documentary. for me.

>> Yeah, my big shift was reading Rick. Strassman's book. >> I still haven't read it. I need to. >> Yeah, um he was the first guy to get FDA. approval to do psychedelic studies. And. the way he did it was very clever. He. did it to prove that these are damaging. and dangerous. That's how he framed it. >> It's so brilliant. >> He's a very smart guy. I mean, you're. talking about a guy who taught himself. ancient Hebrew. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah, over 16 years. Taught himself to.

read and speak ancient Hebrew. so that he could really read the Bible. in its original form. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Super. >> fascinated by prophecy and ancient. religious stories and. you know, he like a lot of people that. have had DMT experiences. you um once you do, you look at those. old stories and you go, "Okay, what what. are these stories really? What was the. original What was the original event?".

Like it's so hard when you're you're. like Moses and the burning bush. The. Well, there's scholars in Israel that. think that burning bush was the acacia. tree and that the acacia tree is rich in. DMT and that might be what it. represents. This experience of meeting. God through a burning bush is he smoked. DMT. >> Yeah. >> Which for anybody who's done DMT, they. go, "Oh, that makes sense.". >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, these scholars, I don't think. these scholars are freaks. I don't think.

they're psychedelic heads. I think. they're just religious scholars that are. trying to like figure out like what was. the origin of that story. >> Yeah. I've I've never heard of that. The. acacia. >> Yeah. Well, the acacia tree very rich in. DMT, but. phalaris grass very rich in DMT. >> Mimosa. >> Yeah. >> Plant. >> And for people that don't know the the. reason why. well, DMT exists in probably thousands. of different plants. But you can eat. those plants and not experience DMT. because of monoamine oxidase.

So, mono MAO is what your gut makes to. break this stuff down so it doesn't. become psychoactive. But when you take an MAO inhibitor and. the psychedelic, then you get ayahuasca. That's what ayahuasca is. That's why. it's an orally active version of DMT. >> Yeah. Which methylene blue is an MAOI. >> Oh. Interesting. >> It's a pretty light It's a pretty light. form of it. But if you're on methylene. blue and you do psychedelics, it's going. to deepen. >> I could imagine.

>> A lot of people are very hesitant about. methylene blue. They don't like the idea. of it. They think it's very dangerous or. potentially dangerous that we don't know. enough about it. We've been researching. it since 1890 something and it's in. every emergency room. >> Is it really? >> Every emergency room. >> Have you ever heard of anybody having. bad experiences with methylene blue or. side effects or. >> There are some contraindications. So. people that are on a high dose SSRIs. >> Oh, okay. >> Um and if you're taking an MAOI, you. can't eat aged cheese and wine cuz of. this chemical called tyrosine that's in.

there. >> Oh, aged cheese. >> Yeah. >> So something about the the fungus? >> No, it's. >> The mold? >> Yeah, maybe there's red wine and aged. cheese both have tyrosine uh which when. you mix tyrosine with an MAOI, it could. can cause a hypertensive crisis. >> Oh. >> So like a super blood pressure issue. >> Oh. >> But I haven't heard anybody having a a. bad time with it, but you you got to. stick to the right dose. Talk to.

obviously you got to talk to a doctor. about it. >> Well, let's ask AI. Um put that into AI. Put that into. Perplexity. See what is the negative. consequences of taking methylene blue. Maybe there's something that we don't. know. Um Huberman's a little bit hesitant. about it. You know, >> Yeah. >> He said and I've talked to other people. that say it seems like for a certain. metabolic conditions it's very. beneficial, but for people that have a. normal metabolic like you your your.

whole system is working fine and. perfect, it might not just not be. necessary, but might cause harm. But. they were very vague about what that. harm would be. >> I don't think it's for everybody. It may. not be for everybody. It It saves my. life for sure. Uh it which I mean I could stop taking. it today and I'll have a seizure within. 48 hours. >> That's wild. >> Yeah. >> You said you had a seizure at last time. after you visited here? >> The night before I came on the show. >> Wow. Okay, methylene blue. This is our AI.

sponsor, Perplexity. Methylene blue can. cause a range of side effects from mild. nuisance symptoms to rare but. life-threatening reactions, especially. at higher doses or when combined with. certain medications. Um common short-term side effects, headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Nothing. Don't be a. >> Yeah, my toilets are actually stained. >> From the pee? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it does make your pee blue. Sweating, feeling hot or cold, muscle. twitches, harmless blue-green. discoloration of urine, sometimes stool. or skin. Serious risk, serotonin.

syndrome when combined with. antidepressants, just like you were just. saying, or other serotonergic drugs, SSRIs, SNRIs, uh MAOIs, some opioids, St. John's Wort. >> G6PD is a big contraindication there. So, methylene blue's in ERs because of. methemoglobinemia, uh which is like when you your. hemoglobin can't bind to oxygen really. well. >> Mhm. >> And it's also the. the only cure for cyanide poisoning.

is methylene blue. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Cyanide? >> It will stop cyanide in its tracks. >> Wow. >> It probably says that on it or. >> Oh, interesting. Safety for chronic. low-dose experimenting for anti-aging or. cognition is not well established and is. current not currently recommended. without medical supervision. Mhm. I know a lot of people that take it. I know a lot of people that take it.

>> know Bobby Bobby takes it. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah, he's one of them. Um a lot of people that take it that say. it it improves cognitive function. It's. supposed to um. also when you take it with red light. therapy, it's supposed to greatly. increase the effectiveness. >> Unbelievably so, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Really? >> I mean, number If you want to go into it. for just a minute here. >> Methylene blue has what's called a. neuronal affinity. So, they used to like you stick it on a. microscope slide with a brain cell, it.

sucks into the neuron. Uh like automatically. And it does the. same thing in your body. So, if I know that I'm I'm basically. dying all of my neurons blue. And I'm. not just talking about in your head. Like we have neurons everywhere, our. whole body. So, if I'm dying a lot of my neurons. blue, and I see something that's blue. Methylene blue is blue because it. reflects blue light, which also means. that it absorbs. almost all red. >> Oh.

>> So, if my neurons are dyed blue, and. then I go into near infrared and. infrared light, I know that I'm I'm. getting way more absorption in there. >> That's gold. That makes sense. >> And the third stage of stage of cellular. breathing, uh we produce this chemical called. cytochrome c oxidase. And cytochrome is. like cell color, cytochroma. Where our cells can start running. essentially running on photons, which is. beautiful and amazing.

And if you get a good red light system, and I have no plug. Um but you get a. good red light system, it'll penetrate. through the skull up to like 4 in. through your skull. In good systems. >> Wow. >> Even lasers and they make laser beds and. all this other stuff. >> Yeah, I have a one of those red light. beds that looks like a tanning bed. I. bought it up from Gary Brecka's company. It's very expensive, but it's pretty. profound. Um I don't need uh reading. glasses anymore. I used to have these things. everywhere, all over my house. I used to.

need them to read my phone, if I wanted. to read an email. I don't need them. anymore. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It's nuts. >> And. >> But I don't bring them with me anymore. I if I would go on the road before, and. I had to do a trip with the UFC or. whatever and I didn't have our reading. glasses on. I was like, "Fuck. Now I got. to make everything big. I can't read. anything." Not anymore. No, my my vision got better from red. light therapy. I don't doubt it. For. sure. I also don't close my eyes. I keep. my eyes wide open. They're like, "Oh, you need goggles." You're like like.

you're staring at the um. into the. some nuclear bomb or something. Yeah. It's not. No. So, it doesn't seem to. bother my vision at all. >> Yeah. And I've I've heard so many. doctors and obviously none of this is. advice for anybody. Um. I've heard so many doctors say throw the. safety goggles in the trash. Look right into it if you want to. It's. going to help your eyes. There's so many. stories of people with macular. degeneration and glaucoma and eye. conditions and stuff that it's gotten. multitudes better than than it was.

>> Obviously my story is anecdotal, but my. vision was shifting. in a very a real bad way. I was using. three those three power ones, you know, those cheap these cheap I buy them off. Amazon, but I use three. And I started. with one like one power and then it got. to two power and then I'll get to three. I'm like, "Jesus Christ, I'm. going blind. I can't see shit.". >> Yeah. >> I don't need any anymore. Now, my. vision's not perfect. It's not 20/20. It's not what it used to be. So, when I.

read things it's like maybe slightly. blurry and if I put reading glasses on. it look a little better, but I don't. need them anymore and it keeps getting. better. I also take lutein and a bunch. of different supplements. I take this uh. no affiliation. I don't. work with them or anything, but it's. called uh Pure Encapsulations Macular. Support. They have a supplement for it. I take those. I've been taking those steadily. at the same time I've been doing the red. light therapy and. it works.

At least it works for me, you know, uh. it worked for Whitney Cummings. Same. thing with her. Her her vision got way. better. She She's very diligent about it. She. does it every day. >> There's something there. >> Yeah. >> Something there. >> Well, there's for sure something about. staring at a phone all day. that's really bad for your eyes. >> Yeah. >> Staring at a phone, staring at a tablet, staring at a laptop, staring at a. computer screen. It's not good for your eyes. >> Period. >> There's no way. >> There's no way. >> Yeah. >> When I look at my phone in bed at night, if I do, it hurts my eyes. >> Yeah.

>> You know, like if it's dark in the room. and I'm like, let me check my email real. quick. I get to my. >> email, it's like. >> It's like it's bright. If I go to a. website that's like a white website, it's like. It hurts. >> Yeah. >> And did you know you can change your. iPhone. like if you go into uh accessibility, it's like color overlay, I forget the. name of it, where you can make the whole. screen red. >> I I have seen people do that. I have not. done done that. >> I've tried to do it on mine. I It's. tough, but I did it on our 2-year-old's.

iPad, and nothing is addictive anymore. Like. she won't sit there and stare at it for. more than 3 or 4 minutes anymore. >> Whoa. >> Yeah, and it's just like I didn't buy. some special device or you just go into. accessibility and make it red. And it. used to be that she would just sit there. and hold the iPad. >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm an anti-electronics guy. So, I. wanted to try this experiment. And the. moment I turned it red, she didn't. complain about the red. She got used to. it within. 15 minutes and never complained again. It Her iPad has never gone off of the.

red mode. And she doesn't get hooked into shows. anymore. >> Whoa. >> She'll watch it for a few minutes, be. like, "Okay, that's great." Put it down. and then go She'll go play. >> Whoa. >> So, it's it's worth an experiment if. anybody's got little small kids out. there. Or do it to yourself. >> It's amazing that they provide you with. a tool to escape the addiction that. they've created. >> [laughter]. >> It's so true, man. Cuz it's a pretty intense addiction. I I.

think they feel like. good luck. You know, you're never. getting off this hook. This hook is sunken deep and the barb is. strong. >> Big time. >> It's so strong. And the the. >> [clears throat]. >> it's the it's the production tool of of. reality right now. If I want to alter. reality, I've just got to engineer how. you see it and like that's that's the. way that we see reality. It's what's on. my phone, what's being shown. >> Yeah, and that's the problem that a lot. of people have with tech companies is. that you're giving these people that. aren't particularly wise. They might be.

intelligent. They figured out how to. code these things and make these things. and market these things, but it's not. like they're. monks. They're not these like profound. visionaries that are. much more educated and enlightened than. the general population. No, a lot of. them have autism. And no empathy. They're out of their. minds. And they're optimizing. the software continually to. get people to engage with it. They they want you to. >> Yeah, I mean that's the that's the. EBITDA. That's the bottom line. Revenue.

comes from ads and how [clears throat]. many ads can I show you and. if I know I know if. >> data. How much data of yours can I sell? >> Yeah. >> It's nuts. >> Which is why like I think it's so. important for people to be. literate, extremely literate in. what's going on with your phone, what's. going on with your brain, and psyops, like this that we see coming out of. the news right now. I'm the guy that. trains psyops. I'm in 2 days after I. leave here, I'm going to Fort Bragg to.

train the United States Army psyops. division. I'm the I'm the guy. [laughter]. >> What are you training them in? Are you. allowed to say? >> In psyops. >> Are you just training them how they work. and how to do it? >> Yeah, like how. Yeah, I'm the body language like people. reading guy. I don't know if you've ever. seen our YouTube channel, The Behavior. Panel. Me and a couple of guys. >> a great YouTube channel. It's awesome. Really good. >> Thank you. Thanks. And uh I have another one with three. other behavior profilers. where we break down videos of people in. interrogation and and stuff like that.

And. I think it's so important to be literate. in a lot of this stuff and how does our. brain work? How can I be compromised? And so I created a tool and I gave it to. Jamie before we started the show that. that will give you a 1 to 100 score on. how likely something is a psyop. >> Oh. >> And. >> Is it an app or is it like on a website? >> Okay. >> And you can run anything through it. And. see and you can run it historically and. see what what psyop and what's not. >> Oh.

>> And it's it's kind of subjective, but at. least you get a standardized score for. everything. And you can see like if you went to. um like the invading Iraq. initially. >> Okay. That's a good one. >> That would score a 98 out of 100 for for. psyop. >> [snorts]. >> Just on this tool here. So like it kind of goes in layers. So. step one is like this pre-ignition like. have societal stuff going on. There's. moral panic. Then operational are there drills.

happening that are kind of similar to. this? Military ramping up. The. regulatory. obviously that's pretty there like bills. getting passed at 2:00 in the morning. and and 5,000 pages. Yeah. >> Then alignment. So like people suddenly. aligning. different news agencies. And then. authorities, celebrities are starting to. come out with the same messaging and. stuff like that. And then media. Like just kind of flooding little. slogans and stuff. >> Mhm. >> If that kind of score is kind of high. and you don't even need the numbers. right now. Then we move to the next one. So has.

this happened before? The precursor. anomalies. Like. have they done this before? Well, a. matter of fact. they gave people LSD against their will. in MK Ultra. You know, whatever. Like is. there some precursor? >> Right. >> And then identical phrasing across. unrelated outlets. So we see something. on MSNBC and Fox saying the same kind of. phrasing or something. That's kind of. suspicious. And then introduced villains. that are prepackaged. Pretty obvious. Injecting symbolism and then they. manufacture urgency like if if this bill.

isn't passed within the next 72 hours. we're going to face a national crisis. and all this kind of stuff. And then you can just kind of go down. the. go down the walkway and it'll give you a. predictive score of how likely something. is a sign up. And one of the biggest things is. if if you don't want to like this is a. lot of crap to like to memorize but. are you seeing authority figures. resonate with each other and are is. nuance not being presented to you? And.

that's like if I'm not seeing nuance if. I have a left versus right issue and. there's a prepackaged villain. That's a sign up. If you just look at those couple of. things is and nowadays we have a death. of nuance where no one's getting. presented any nuance to anything it's. just it's either you're on this side. you're wearing this jersey or this. jersey. Which is really toxic to our our whole. entire country. The whole world. >> And it's accentuated by clips and these. weird little things. >> Yeah and if you're on the left.

>> nuance. >> Let's say I'm I'm on the left. When I log into social media whatever it. is they're going to show me the dumbest. morons on the other side that. they could possibly find. Yeah. And the. same thing if I'm on the right they're. going to show me the biggest idiots. And they their only goal is being like. me thinking oh my god these people are. insane. And it's me thinking that's all. of them. >> Right. >> But like if you go to Target right now. and see somebody that voted differently. than you you want the same You.

want your kids to be healthy. You want. safety. You want to pay less taxes. You. want to you want the government less and. less involved in your life and. they're not all insane but their goal is. to make you think all the other side is. insane right? That's the ultimate sign. up. So then then at the end there you kind. of get a one-to-100 score, and. I started a I bought a TV station. Did I. tell you about this? >> No. >> I was going to text you, or I was going. to send you an email about this. I bought a a TV station. We started our.

own a daily news show. Uh where we run the the day's events all. the way through the SciOps index every. single day. And we show, here's how you're being. presented, here's how you're being made. to feel about this issue, here's where. nuance has been taken out, every single. thing that's like truly going on. Here's. the bill that got passed that nobody's. talking about that has a lot to do with. this. Here's the They're saying the. Strait of Hormuz is going to open, but. here's what Brent crude is predicting. oil prices at. So, the insurance markets.

has a lot more info than than the news. is going to give you. So, we like try to give you every single. day, here's how you're being made to. feel, here's the actual news. Here's. what they're going to Left is going to. say, here's what the right's going to. say, and here's where they're killing. nuance. Here's where you're being. presented a a binary choice. And. I think I'm I'm trying to like I want to. make SciOps irrelevant. And and. what do we have to do? What are the. steps we have to take to not really. inoculate people from SciOps, but just.

to make them so visible. that it's just obvious. And yeah, they're going to have to invent. something else, and they will, but at. least for a few years, people are are. really wise to everything. Like this is. very obvious, cuz like all the things. that were up on that sheet right there, if you look at that a few times, it it. starts to become irrelevant. And like my. goal is to make people more expensive to. influence. >> Mhm.

I think it's possible. I think if this. gets out there, the more people are. aware, and just can piece it together, and the more that narrative starts. getting pushed, and The start repeating. it, like let's pay attention to this. When you say you bought a TV channel or. a TV station, what do you mean? >> Like an actual station. A physical station with a news desk and. >> Where does it air? >> Uh it's on YouTube right now. >> So, where'd you buy this place? Where. was Was it just like. >> 10 minutes from my. >> So, it was a former TV station that was.

like going out of business? >> Yeah, we retrofitted everything, upgraded it. >> [snorts]. >> But it's They're probably a fire sale on. TV stations right now. >> Yeah. [laughter]. It was We got a good deal. >> Nobody's watching TV. >> And That's great. >> Yeah, we retrofitted it and like a. quality's. up there with like Fox or anybody else. Like we have a daily show. >> What's the daily show on YouTube called? >> Uh Station One. >> Station One. >> Yeah. Surprisingly that wasn't taken. >> It's a new channel? >> Yeah. >> Oh, perfect. >> Brand new channel. We have like.

most of the subscribers were my mom, I. think, for the first month. >> [laughter]. >> Uh. We're growing now. >> So, you just started it off and no. fanfare, just try to. >> Yeah, trying to kick it off. And uh it's You know, I I I do it with. my YouTube channel, uh which I've got 2. million. something subscribers on YouTube and. um. it's cool that I can make these. documentaries, but you know on YouTube, like you can't change it up on people. Like there's the algorithm punishes when. you change things. So, we had to start a.

new a channel. Like you had to. Interesting. Like you guys started. JRE Clips. >> Mhm. >> Cuz you can't like back in the day the. algorithm said you can't do short-form. and then long-form stuff. And the. algorithm kind of punishes you for that. So, you had to make a new channel for. it. Probably what Jamie did or or the. team did. >> I don't remember what the initial reason. was. I think we decided it would be good. just to have a second channel as well. anyway, just in case, cuz there was. always the threat that YouTube was going. to remove us.

>> Okay. >> Which I do think that if it wasn't for. Spotify and it wasn't for the fact that. I was primarily on Spotify, I probably. would have been removed during the whole. COVID thing. >> Oh my god, yeah. >> Yeah, cuz we were regularly questioning. a bunch of different things that could. have got you removed. We were regularly. questioning regularly questioning the. COVID lab leak. We were regularly. questioning whether or not there was any. danger to taking these vaccines, regularly regularly questioning. alternative medical care.

>> Yeah. And that's that was maybe the the. biggest sign up of our lifetimes. >> For sure. And now. now confirmed. >> That woke up normal people. That woke up. average people cuz it was so obvious. >> Woke up a lot. Some of them like they. just can't shake them. They're on 15. Ambien. >> Yeah. >> They're just they're going to stay. >> I've got family members that are very. trustful of government. And they're. like, "No, Chase, if if the if it was. going to go bad or if it was this thing,

they they would tell us." And I was. like, "These are the people who gave you. the food pyramid.". >> Correct. >> And. >> [laughter]. >> told you to eat 16 loaves of bread every. day. >> And and yeah, it's it's the idea that. the government is here to help you. It's. like. that's the dumbest. >> That was Reagan's best line. >> Yeah. That they're the five. >> Yeah. >> We're the government and we're here to. help. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, [snorts] that's um. it's interesting how people will believe. in the government if it is convenient.

But then if the other people are the. government, then it's 100% negative. >> Yeah. >> It's like what people are so. ideologically captured. And that's why. people are completely unwilling to look. at anything positive that one of the. other members, someone from the other. side, proposes. >> Exactly. >> Which is what what I found really. fascinating about the response to the. Trump thing. You know, the Trump passing the. psychedelic initiative and trying to.

push through Ibogaine and psilocybin and. all these different methods that people. have used to overcome addiction and. treat all these different things that we. talked about before. They didn't know. what to do with that. That was a weird. one cuz they they tried to find all. sorts of negatives. I I saw people. trying to find negatives. >> Because it's him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, which is so crazy. >> And there was also negatives because it. was pushed by me and the the idea like. was Joe Rogan helping mental health. policy in America? Is that real?

>> You're the green guy who takes horse. paste though. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And a dragon believer. >> [gasps]. >> Yeah, it's. uh it's an interesting time to be alive, you know. >> Really is. >> So what emotionally for you. if I I think if I saw myself edited like. that on CNN or something I feel like. that would wreck me. I feel like I that. would emotionally make me feel like. for such a long time. Were you just like. over it? >> Oh, it didn't make me feel like for.

a second. I started laughing. I thought. it was hilarious. >> Okay. >> I was also very aware that they weren't. aware that my show was way bigger than. them. See, the thing about mainstream media is. that mainstream media had ruled for so. long that they had gotten delusional. They'd been like a champion that didn't. think that he had to train anymore. And. then some new contender came along that. had been you know, in the mountains of. Siberia. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Someone came out. of the blue and just them up. And.

they were they're so bad at this thing. that they think they run. And they're. also they also are very. they're very unaware of the actual. playing field. So the actual playing. field that they exist in is so limited. that they cannot ever. achieve the kind of. acceptance or interaction or trust that. alternative media can. >> Yeah. >> So, there's too many people involved,

too many people will most certainly move. things and water things down to like. what you were talking about before. Like, here's what I want people to think. I believe, right? >> Yeah. >> Which is most of what mainstream media. produces. It's here's what I want people. to think I believe. You don't believe. any of those people reading that. teleprompter because none of it seems. sincere. Your your mind registers this. is a person reading something that's. been written. It doesn't register. And. then when you see them talking. free form like on those panel shows on. CNN, you're like, oh, you guys are.

Like, this [laughter]. is you guys have some of the dumbest. opinions. You're so uninformed. You're. so ideologically captured. This is so. not compelling. They've turned CNN into. a group podcast. That's a lot of. the shows on CNN are bad podcasts with. like. >> Yeah. shitty guests who uh, you know, they're. no nuance and they're yelling over each. other. >> Exactly. >> format. >> No nuance whatsoever. >> It's also the problem that they have to. break for commercials. >> Oh, yeah. >> And then there's the problem that s- the.

funding for those commercials, a giant. chunk of it is pharmaceutical drug. companies. >> Huge. >> Yeah. And they And as Mike Benz and. Cally Means and a lot of people have. talked about, they don't do that because. they want to sell drugs. They do that. because now the news will not criticize. the pharmaceutical drug company. >> Yeah. >> Cuz the pharmaceutical drug company's. responsible for enormous part of their. income. >> Yeah. And I mean,

I wouldn't say definitively that that's. happening, but I mean, if you're the if. you're the CEO or the president, you. know exactly where the money's coming. from. >> 100%. >> you get a phone call that says, hey, you. know what? Maybe not mention that. >> Yeah. >> Or maybe. >> And maybe attack someone who's got a. narrative and turn them green and do all. that other stuff. But like I said, for. me, it was making me laugh. I thought it. was funny. I thought it was funny. I was. like, this is such a classic mistake. Like you you guys are completely.

>> out of touch. >> Yeah, just delusional. >> Not understanding the backlash of that. of just doing open. like in your face. Like there was no. like hey, look over here. Right. It was. just in your face side up. >> Not just that, they're also you you're. making a green version of a video that. exists on Instagram first. So it it's already out there. You don't. think the internet is going to see that. there's a difference in my skin tone on. CNN than on Instagram? On Instagram I.

look rosy and healthy. I I wasn't lying. I was making a video. I was If I was. really sick, I was outside. I was. outside having a I was like, I feel. good. I felt shitty for a day. I was. being completely honest. >> Yeah. >> Nor did I ever think that it was going. to be controversial to talk about. Ivermectin. I had no idea. So Ivermectin. was not a controversial substance before. I talked about it in that one video. >> Yeah. >> It was. it was normal. You could get it at a. pharmacy. Your doctor could prescribe it. to you. Mine did. But he also prescribed.

to me a ton of other stuff. >> Exactly. There's it's so much other. stuff. Like Fenbendazole is that's now. getting a in the into the same category. as Ivermectin was. >> Mhm. >> And Mel Gibson talked about it here with. you. >> Yes. >> And that combo. And there's a study now. that shows, I think it's from 2022, that. that it's a a cancer treatment. Like a. new. cancer treatment. >> Right. >> What the hell? >> I know. >> It's not patented. So it's it's a demon.

>> It's a demon and these news stations are. all complicit. They're they're all in. bed with the pharmaceutical drug. companies who again are responsible for. enormous part of their advertising. budget. And that's where they make their. money. >> Yeah. >> And they don't have a a of people that. believe them anymore. I think they lost. a lot of their credibility during the. COVID epidemic. >> W-. Who? Media? >> The news media. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the government. >> And the government, but most people are. aware like, "Oh, this is a psyop." And.

then, of course, the final straw was Elon purchasing. Twitter and then the Twitter files. So, when Matt Taibbi and um and Shel-. Michael Shellenberger and all these. different people got a hold of these. files, where you could see the emails between. the federal government and these social. media companies, where they were asking. people to censor true stories. And you're like, "What?" And then when. Zuckerberg was on my podcast, he. explained how the FBI had contacted him.

and told him that they wanted him to. censor stories. and censor the Hunter Biden laptop. story. >> It's terrifying. >> It's crazy. This is This is. literally banana republic. >> So, have you heard of Project. Mockingbird? >> Yes. >> Operation Mockingbird. And I mean, it's. not new. So, I mean, somebody says like, "Oh, I. can't believe the government's doing. this." You're like, "Wait a second. Just. go Just look at history.". >> Right. >> And Dr. Phil. uh. says, "One time is a pattern.".

And if you go back, there's way more. than one time this has happened. Operation Mockingbird, Walter Cronkite. uh was a CIA asset. >> Yeah. >> Legit CIA asset. >> So's Anderson Cooper. >> Is he? >> Anderson Cooper worked for the CIA when. he was in college. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. Look that up. Make sure that's. true. I'm 99% sure. 99% sure, rather. >> Julia Child's. Didn't you know she was in. >> She's beautiful. >> She was in the CIA teaching people how. to bake?

>> [laughter]. >> I think she did the. hand-to-hand combat course. people up with a rolling pin. Is. the Anderson Cooper thing correct? I believe he worked for the CIA in. college. Uh. Anderson Cooper interned the CIA for two. consecutive summers while he was a. political science major at Yale. University. He did not pursue a career. in intelligence, wink wink, after. graduating later describing the agency's. desk work at Langley as less James Bond. than I hoped it would be. Yeah. Well, I think it's all less James.

Bond. It's It's more money. It's more money and influence and what. do the people in power want people to. believe? >> But he's not the only one. Walter. Cronkite. >> There were hundreds. >> Yeah. >> Hundreds and hundreds. >> Yeah. So much so it was every network. And. there's no direct There's no. declassified document that says, "Here's. what we told them to say." Or here's how. compromised they were. But they were. compromised.

completely and and. most likely told exactly what to say or. what stories to suppress. >> Does Mike Wallace have some sort of a. connection? >> I don't know. >> See if Mike Wallace had some sort of a. connection with the CIA. But it It's It's a bunch of prominent, respected, trusted news anchors. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> All over the place. And this is through. the '50s, '60s, I think in the beginning. of the '70s until this thing called the. >> Mike Wallace is famous for his probing.

investigative reporting on CBS's 60. Minutes regarding the CIA, most notably. in landmark 1993 report called titled. The CIA's. >> cocaine. >> exposed. So he's the opposite. So he he. worked to expose CIA stuff. The report. exposed a covert CIA anti-drug operation. in Venezuela that allowed hundreds of. millions of dollars in cocaine to be. smuggled. Okay, this is Iran-Contra. affair. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay, so it's the opposite. >> But with so many things like somebody's.

like, "Oh, I can't believe COVID's doing. this." You can be like, "Well, look at. Look at history again." Like, we dosed. millions of people with LSD against. their consent, against their will. >> millions? >> I think Well, there were experiments. with aerosol. forms of LSD that were in cities in. >> What? >> Yeah. >> I didn't know about that, Jamie. Aerosol. LSD in cities? >> Somewhere near like Vermont or Boston. It was somewhere up in like the New. England area. Um.

>> [laughter]. >> Dude. >> What kind of a psycho do you have to be. to like get a crop duster plane and fill. up a tank of LSD and just spray it on. kids? >> I don't I don't I don't get it. And then. you go back to when we we dosed, I don't. know I don't know how many. African-Americans with syphilis or we. like grouped them together. They They. had syphilis. >> Uh-huh, and didn't treat them. >> And gave them fake treatments and stuff. >> US government has never openly sprayed. LSD from the air over entire cities. However, during the Cold War,

intelligence agencies and the military. did conduct covert aerosol and mind. control experiments on the public. What. does that mean? It means you did it. >> Yeah, not from a plane then most likely. They were like. >> They probably had a fan and a bucket. >> [laughter]. >> CIA's notorious Project MKUltra sought. to weaponize LSD and use it for mind. control. CIA operatives were sent to San. Francisco to spray the air with LSD-25. at an unwitting party of guests. Oh, I. did hear about this. The result, the.

agency ultimately abandoned the specific. aerosol test at the last minute because. the summer weather was too hot to keep. the windows closed and their specialized. aerosol device malfunctioned. >> There we go. Number two, the army. sprayed thousands of unsuspecting. Americans with. uh aerosolized chemicals. >> Yeah, military released a fine powder. called zinc cadmium sulfide over 33. rural and. uh subur- urban rather and rural areas.

Um scroll up a little bit, please. Yeah, the targeted cities, affected. cities included St. Louis, Minneapolis, Winnipeg, Corpus Christi, and Fort. Wayne. St. Louis was deliberately chosen. because its population density and the. terrain were similar to the Soviet. targets like Moscow. Oh. >> I was just looking [clears throat] up. something else. Um, did you know about this? >> Why the did Dan Rather and Donald. Rumsfeld buy a New Exco New Mexico ranch. together in 1981? >> That's the same year he was promoted to. news anchor at CBS Evening News.

>> Oh. >> Good lord. And it's also like right next. door to the Epstein ranch in New Mexico. >> Right. And Epstein famously got that to. be close to Los Alamos, right? So he. could lure those scientists over with uh. >> Unbelievable. >> Yeah. But I mean, like you go back through. history, this is. everybody's like, "Oh, the COVID was. crazy." It's not new. It's just we. hadn't experienced it so blatantly. before because they'd never tried. something like that during the age of.

social media. >> Yeah. And they used a playbook that. relied on on putting a letter in the. mail or sending a telegram. >> Yeah, they used a playbook also that. required having control over the. narratives that were being pushed out by. the media. Yeah. And the media had lost. its luster, it lost its impact on. people. At the same time, the rise of. podcasts had happened kind of under the. radar and they didn't recognize it. They. missed it. They they just overestimated. their position. >> Yeah, and during COVID, you had more. viewers than than CNN even.

>> I Not only that, when they turned me. green and all that cancellation but I. gained 2 million followers on Spotify in. a month. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> People were just like, "What is going on. that everybody's trying to cancel this. guy? Like, what is he doing?" And then. they'd listen and they'd go, "Oh, it's just a show where they talk to. people. What are they trying to hide from us?". And then you have guys on like Dr. Peter. McCullough and Robert Malone and all. these different people that are you. know, McCullough is the most published doctor.

in history, in human history, in his. particular field of study. And they were trying to make him out to. be a quack. And then you see what they. did with Jay Bhattacharya, and all all. these different people. >> And one of those guys was the inventor. of mRNA. >> Robert Malone. He He has nine patents. on the creation of mRNA technology. >> And he should never be out there telling. people that it might not be safe. >> Not only that, he took it and had a. serious, horrible reaction,

where he almost died. >> Really? >> Yeah, which is what prompted him to try. to figure out what the is going on. Cuz he was assured by everyone that it. stayed local, it's not going to cause. massive inflammation, and you know, myocarditis, and all these different. things that it eventually was. absolutely causing. You know, and then there's, you know, they're trying to hide now the impact. that it's had on children. You know, the. impact that it's had on on children that. took it, and how what giant percentage. of them that died after taking it, died.

within days of the injection. >> Yeah. >> And they're trying to ignore the signal. And there's so many gaslighters all over. Twitter. There's people that are paid to. gaslight on Twitter. That's a fact. They. There's pharmaceutical drug companies, just like a lot of other companies, will. pay people to post. They'll pay people to attack. They'll. pay people to be the voice of authority. and reason, so you can assure all the. brainwashed boomers that they're right. all along, and everything's fine. >> Yeah, and.

if you just look at. basic manipulation and and mind control, the number one fear of human beings is. supposedly public speaking, right? Um, but that's not it. It's the judgment. that might come from public speaking. It's not the being on stage. It's like, is somebody going to judge me? Am I. going to get ostracized? So, the way that they control a lot of. this and and gaslight people is to use. the fear of social punishment and social. enforcement.

And. if I can get one celebrity to go out. there and call these people a name, and just give them a name as if it's a. group of people, you know, like. anti-vaxer, conspiracy theorist, dragon believer, that kind of thing. We We give it a name. and that makes it easier for other. people to socially enforce. And it comes. from an authority figure. So, you get the tribe involved and all. you got to do is. is up a few people.

Yep, uh like Robert Malone. And And they're like, "Hey, I've got I. can I can take this guy down. Yeah. What. do you think I'm going to do to you?". Yeah. Uh and you just get that fear out. there and that's all you need to do. And. you kind of gaslight people cuz now like. I'm I'm scared enough, but I won't say. I'm scared. I'll say, "Nah, I'd rather. not just say my opinion." So, now my. identity gets tied into it. Now it's. part of who I am. I'm just not going to. say anything. And it gets normalized. Like the the. absolute just let me mute myself and and.

tape my mouth shut so I don't get. punished. >> And then there's a bunch of people that. attack. and do the work for the man because they. don't want to be lumped in with the. other side. So, they'll go on social. media and call the anti-vaxers, you. know, plague rats and all these. different things. And And And also say. the wildest like their children. should be taken from them, they should. be locked up, isolated from society. >> And this is uh something called category. warfare. Have you ever heard of this? >> I I know the the expression. >> Uh this guy, I can't remember his name,

>> [clears throat]. >> uh he wrote a book called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things. That was the first. language categories that we had for. language was women, fire, and dangerous. stuff. Uh I think his name was Laken, George. Laken or Lakoff. But if we if I frame something using a. category, I can change what the allowed. behavior is. So, if I say that me and this other. person are having a disagreement, your. your brain automatically has a list of. what a disagreement is and what's. acceptable.

But, if I say we're having a fight, now there's there's new stuff on the. table. And all I did was change how. something is defined in your brain. And. we don't consciously process that our. brain is getting permission to do things. because of a category. But, if I say I've been at war with. these people for a long time. Now, a war. is way different. >> Mhm. >> Or if I say like I disagree with Rogan, that's one thing. But, if I say Rogan is. a threat, what do we do to something that's a. threat, right? We we have to neutralize. a threat. Right. So, just small words.

like that change what our brain says is. permissible in that moment. And that is really what's going on here. So, actually two layers. If I can go. into this for a second. >> Sure. >> Number one is this category. Let me just. get a category out there to make your. brain think one thing is permissible. The second thing is I create the idea in. such a way that you get to feel morally. superior for adopting it. And you don't. have to have any new morals or anything. else. You just have to adopt this idea.

and you get to feel better than other. people. And that's it. So, I change the category means like I. can do something differently. So, in a. in a legal argument, if somebody says. we're at war with the other side, this. is my opponent instead of the other. person. What do we do with an opponent? We have to take them down. It's a fight. There's a winner. There's a loser. There's always assumed uh competition. there. So, that is one of the biggest things. that I'm I hope everybody can look out. for as a as the.

influence psyops expert. And I'm not immune to any of this stuff. Um I buy stupid on off of an. Instagram ad as much as the next person. Um. But, it's important to know when it's. when something is clearly presented to. you, and it's easy to feel emotional about. it, you're being manipulated. Something's clearly presented, and it's. just like, here's this one thing, and. it's really clean, and it's easy to get. pissed off about, or it's easy to feel.

comfortable about, or whatever it is. If. If the emotional thing is easy without. having to dig into it, you're being. manipulated. >> And. that's a giant percentage of what most. people consume. It's Yeah. All day long. >> Yeah. And it's. it's compounding. So, if I just consume. a little bit, that's that's one thing. But, now I get a little bit more, a. little bit more, a little bit further. into this rabbit hole,

and we get in these Obviously, everyone. says this online, but you get into these. echo chamber of social media, all of a. sudden, you can you can find your people. anywhere. You can You can connect with. your people. If you like to make. uh knitted yarn vests for hamsters, you can find other people that do. like that. Um So, back in the day, if you had a bad. idea, you couldn't find a lot of other people. that agreed with you. And now it's easier to find people who. agree with you when you have a shitty.

idea. So, the there's a niche. There's a whole. separate niche. And on top, while you're. there getting told that your ideas are. relevant and normal, they're not. abnormal, because there's so many other. people. It normalizes bad ideas. The second part of that is, I'm with all these people, but then I go. back to normal social media, and all I. get told all day is, I'm right about. those people. I'm right about those. people. I'm right about those people. And it's just. it is so sick. And And. which goes back to what we first talked.

about, how performative our world is, and like. how all of us conceal the shame so much. that we can't ever be seen by anybody. Like we'll go to the grave and and feel. like my wife has never even seen who I. truly am. You know? >> And then the other thing that's nuts is. people have this complete inability to. admit when they're wrong or change. course. They have connected themselves, they've connected their their their. whole being to whatever their thoughts.

are, whatever this thing that they've. agreed is real. And once they've. defended it, they never want to go back. and objectively look at it and go, "Wait. a minute. Oh, I believed this and that's not the. case. Oh, this is the case. Oh, I'm. wrong. Oh, no, I got to. I got to course correct." No, they dig. in and they try to find other echo. chambers that agree with their initial. position and other people that And. there's plenty of people that will.

provide those services for you. Plenty. of people. If you want to live in your. echo chamber, plenty of people, real and. digital, that will provide you this. escape from your ability to learn and. grow. >> And and a sycophantic AI will do will. help you with that. >> the best. They'll tell you, "You're. wonderful, darling. You're doing the. best." I always tell people, you're not. your ideas and it's one of the most. important things that I've ever learned. You cannot be married to your ideas. Your ideas are just ideas and as soon as. you defend them and as soon as you.

connect yourself to them and you as soon. as you connect your identity to them, you're in a trap. You're in a. real trap and it's very hard to get out. without admitting defeat. Most people. don't want to admit defeat and that's. how they look at it. They look at it's. like a battle for their exis-. existential existence. Their existence. is completely tied in to their belief. system. >> Yeah. And it. And then we call that cognitive. dissonance, right? So, I either have to. say I'm a dumb ass or those other people.

are stupid. >> Right. >> So like when Biden won the election, it was the same thing. People on the. right either had to admit, "Wow, I'm. stupid and I underestimated what our. country's doing or the other people are. just idiots and they don't know what's. going on." Same thing happened when. Trump got elected. >> Mhm. >> Either like the whole country is stupid. or I have to admit that I had I didn't. know what was going on and I'm out of. touch a little bit and maybe there's. something good. And I'll just I'll just. say they're all stupid. It's it We're protecting our identity is. so.

it's ingrained into us. It's the ego. uh thing. Like I don't want to be wrong. and if I am wrong and I'm wrong in. public, then I risk ostracism again. So. it's like get it's getting kicked out of. the tribe again. It's going back to the. same fear. >> And people love to do that, too. They. love to attack people if they're wrong. Love to destroy people and and ruin all. credibility that they've ever had, that. they've. you could have been a public figure for. a 10 years putting out great. information. You one thing up,

people want to ban you forever, especially if you don't admit it. Especially. >> Oh, you're running for office? What. about that you took a nude when you were. 19? You took a naked photo. >> [laughter]. >> What the. And and that goes back to everyone's. pretending like they're like everyone. else has got their figured out and. that's why everyone thinks everybody's. got it figured out and I'm pretending. >> Mhm. >> I'm the one hiding everything. I'm. Everyone's got that Everyone who. thinks like, "Oh, they're going to find. out my skeletons." Everybody's got.

skeletons in their closet. Everybody's. got stuff like that. And it's we're in the age where we're. comparing ourselves to highlight reels. and you know, Dr. Phil talks about this. all the time. And. but we have to realize that that. there is people want you to be human. And we don't enjoy fake This is. why people are attracted to your. podcast. This is why stuff that's real. is trending so much more now. Like we're.

attracted to things that are human and. flawed. That's why we buy that says. handmade on it. >> Mhm. >> We don't buy like oh machine made. No. one celebrates that, right? We like the. humanness of things. Um and even when I say there's a. loneliness epidemic going on right now, everyone will nod their head and no one. will raise their hand. >> Mhm. >> Everyone will say oh yeah, it's. affecting all those people. But no one will say it's affecting me. But they'll all nod along. And I think we're getting to a place.

where like. maybe we're coming out of that. It just. maybe it's me, maybe it's my echo. chamber, but I feel like people are. waking up. I feel like more people. uh not just through COVID, but just. now just the way the world is, they're. like what you know what? This doesn't. really feel It doesn't really. It feels weird for me to hate and feel. hatred towards one of my neighbors who. didn't vote like I did. That feels. weird. >> Yeah. >> Just to hate someone for for that. reason. I think people are waking up that.

that maybe the plan is going too fast. Maybe they're taking it too uh. quickly. They're trying to go through. all these steps too fast is what it. feels like to me. >> Well, also I don't think they're. competent. I don't think they're good at. it and that's part of the problem. >> Good at what? >> Good at. projecting narratives. I don't I don't. think the people that are necessarily in. charge of propaganda, at least people at. a government level I don't think they're. particularly slick. >> No. >> And that's part of the problem with all. this. It's like.

>> when you're at a middle school sleepover. and the dad comes in trying to be cool. It's like hey kids, what are you guys. doing? That's the government trying to run this. This is when you get syringes. dancing on stage on the on a late night. TV show. >> Right. That was nuts. >> [laughter]. >> Well, it's also a person who seems. completely insincere. You know, >> Yeah. >> that that ver- that version of him, it's. weird because the version of him that. was on the The Daily Show was awesome. Like it was this caricature.

>> And irreverent. >> Yeah. >> And he was raw and irreverent. Yeah. >> But you realize, oh, that was just. really good writers. >> Yeah. >> They have really good writers that. created a a fun Republican character. that was a buffoon, but like a hilarious buffoon. >> Yeah. >> [snorts]. >> And then he went and did a TV show and. you're like, oh, the real you is weird. >> [laughter]. >> But I I think our saving grace is what. you're talking about, is that they suck.

at this. >> Yeah. >> When your teacher uh announces there's. going to be a pizza party and expects. everybody to be super freaking out about. it. Like, yeah, it's it's pizza. But the government's like, hey, guess. what we got for you. We got this new data coming out, this. new data. And. the sci-ops are working less because of. the spread of information. So, people. say, oh, social media's bad, you. shouldn't be on social media. Well, some of that is is what's exposing. this stuff. >> Yes. >> And we're we have people out there that.

are that are like you, and I'm not. kissing your ass here, but you're. willing to say. that sounds preposterous at the. beginning of something and and just make. an observation that's real. And you're. willing to just what the way that I. phrase this in a lot of our training. at uh my. training that is called NCI. The way that we phrase this is like the. first ingredient of confidence is the. willingness to receive social injury. >> Mhm. >> And we need more of that. We need more.

people willing to receive social injury. >> Well, the position that I was in during. the COVID thing was very unique. So, it. was uh almost easy. for me. because I had already I'd gotten such a. head start. I was so far ahead of them. They They didn't realize that my ability. to say, "Wait, this. This doesn't make any sense. Like none. of this makes any sense. And also, why. am I green? And also, why are you guys. lying? Why are you lying about all sorts. of different things? Why.

Why are you measuring troponin levels. when you're talking about myocarditis. and not the actual scans of people's. hearts when you realize that young. people are getting legitimately. up from this vaccine? Not all of them, but some of them. Why Why aren't you. looking at that? How come you guys. aren't looking at vaccine injuries? That. seems like a significant thing that. people are talking about. You got soccer. players dropping dead in the middle of. the field, and no one's bringing that. up? You You're trying to gaslight us. into thinking that that doesn't make any. sense? I was in a. unique position to be able to do that.

Because I had like. almost like. quietly snuck up to this and had this. large audience that they weren't aware. of. >> Yeah. >> So, when it happened, it was just. It was like I couldn't do anything other. than what I did. I I had to just keep. doing it the way I did it. And it was the blowback was crazy. They. tried to crush my sponsors. They. organized campaigns. There was PACs. involved. It was There was Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. Thank God I was on Spotify. And thank God Spotify is not an American. company. And also, it helped that I was number. one in like 90 countries and not number. 90 in one country. >> Yeah. >> That helped. >> Yeah. >> That helped a lot. It It The size of it. was It was like It was so big that as. big as they were, they like, "Uh-oh.". Like And then there's the Streisand. thing. Like you try to silence. something,

you're you're just going to make it. bigger. If I went to If they kicked me. off of Spotify and I had to go to. Rumble, it would have just blown Rumble. stock up, and it would have. It would have helped everybody. >> Yeah. I didn't know that there was that much. going on in your life. >> even talk about it, but there was. presidents involved and former. presidents involved that were contacting. Spotify. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, trying to get me. removed for vaccine misinformation. >> Wow, and you have the guy that invented. MRNA and the most published doctor in.

his field. Now a single apology. Not a. single apology from anybody. Not a not a. single retraction. Not a single. >> Now a single apology. Not a single. apology from anybody. Not a not a single. retraction. Not a single you know, mea. culpa. Not a single we were wrong. And you know, I lost a lot of sponsors. I lost a lot of a lot during that those. days. It was interesting. It was a it. was a there was a time. where it was working. >> Wow. >> Yeah.

>> I didn't know there was that much. coordination. >> Oh, there was a lot of coordination. I don't I don't talk about it too much. cuz it's. it's pretty it's pretty deep. It was. nuts, but it didn't work, right? But. they tried. And they they tried to they. spent a lot of money. A lot [groaning]. of money. It wasn't a small amount of. money. It wasn't a small amount of. people. It was a lot of people and a lot. of money. >> Good lord. >> Yeah. That part was spooky. But the turning my face green was.

hilarious. That didn't bother me at all. >> It's also I'm a comedian. You know what. I mean? Like I'm a talker. Like. that's what I do. If you talk to. me, it's like you're not going to hurt. my feelings that much. It's like I'm. used to it. It's normal. It's a part of. the game that I play. So, you know, especially if. you're doing it and there's a video. that's the real video that's available. for anybody that goes on my Instagram. page. Like. retards. Like what it [laughter]. is crazy. It's a stupid checker move.

It's so dumb. >> And I think that. what we see as authority hasn't changed. in 200,000 years, but I think that. what we consider to be social authority. has been modified. Just kind of in the. human side of things. >> Yeah. >> Like it used to be. oh, this guy's got a suit and tie on. Now, all these CEOs are wearing a hoodie. or a t-shirt or something. >> Mhm. >> Like the visual definition of. authority's changed and the the social.

definition of authority is it started to. change now. Where it it used to be. mainstream news and now we're we're. moving into like a post news era of of. something. I don't know what the next. >> [snorts]. >> thing's going to be. >> I mean, what Elon always says is you are. the news now and the the the rise of. independent journalist and what you have. what what you're selling. what what is your currency is. authenticity. And. honesty. And and as long as you don't. break from that as long as people don't.

find out oh, he's uh secretly getting. all this money from AIPAC he's secretly. getting all this money from Russia, secretly getting all this money and you. know, oh, there's meetings where they've. had where they've told people what. narratives to push and then you see. people on Twitter that are, you know, supposedly new influencers and then you. see them almost cut and paste the exact. same message over and over again and. then you find out oh, there's actual. campaigns where you're you're paid large. sums of money.

if you have a large following, large. sums of money, like significant amount. of money to be a person who pushes. narratives online. That's your job. You. are literally a paid propagandist. And. when people find that out. you're going to lose a lot of your. people that are paying attention to you, that take you seriously, but there's. going to be enough that don't know about. it, that just see the tweet and like oh. my god, is that true? >> Yeah. >> Like oh my god, that's crazy. Enough. casuals where you're going to get some. traction, but you have sacrificed the.

one thing. that you need to survive in this. environment, and that's authenticity and. honesty. If you don't have those two. things, you're Because when the. mind-reading software gets uploaded and. everybody knows. you and me will be all right. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> They'll probably look at some of our. brains and go, "Dude, you're up. But you're up, too. Everybody's. up. We're all up. It's. like, how do you behave? What do you do?

How do you manage your. fucked-up-it-ness? What do you do? Uh what do you do with. your time? What do you do with your. life? >> Yeah. >> We're going to know. We're going to. know. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to know a lot of people. online are just demons. They're just. demons like in in the real sense of the. term. Like if you if you thought of what. If you had a demon. and if you were a demon, if if if actual. demons were real, what would they be. doing? What would they be doing? Well, they would most certainly be trying to.

ruin people's lives. They would most. certainly be trying to spread hate, spread misinformation, confuse people, >> Get you to compare yourself to other. people. >> Oh, yeah. Destroy you psychologically. Get you to take medications that you. don't need. >> Um make you think that you're not. enough. >> Yeah. Yeah. Make you think you're not. enough. Take money to in or and and. sacrifice other people's health and. safety just for whatever financial. compensation you've got you've been. given to push a narrative.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's demonic. >> And it's separation. All of that is. like, you are separate from these. people. They don't matter. >> Mhm. >> You shouldn't care about them. You are. separate. They are different things. You're not connected. You're not the. same thing. >> And that's how people justify bombings. >> Yeah. >> That's how people justify war. That's. how people justify all sorts of horrific. behavior that human beings still engage. in. >> What did George Carlin say? I think he. said uh. conspiracy's not required when interests. all align. >> Right. That's a great quote. >> Yeah. That's a great quote. He had so.

many bang. >> it's a big club. >> Yep, and you're not in it. >> You're not in it. >> so many bangers. >> Yeah, he did. >> But there's a few people that are in the. club. That's what's interesting, you. know? There's few people that get in. that club. And you know, and then all of a sudden. their opinions change. >> Yeah. >> All of a sudden they soften up on. stances. Or they get killed on a campus. >> Have you had somebody on your show that. you thought was compromised? >> Oh, yeah. >> You have to name names, but. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. I've had people. on my show that I I guarantee are here.

to try to push a narrative. Yeah, 100%. No doubt. In my own, you know, my it's I think in. some cases it's obvious. And my job is to just keep them talking. and let the internet do its job. >> Can I teach you a tactic right now? >> Sure. >> That will be good for these people. yeah. >> All right, how much time do we have? >> We've got time. >> Okay. All right, so this is a CIA. method. called elicitation. And it was invented by this guy John. Nolan. And um.

So, the basic premise is you're going to. get more the more sensitive information. you need out of a person, the less. questions you should be asking. So, here's how it works. You can get sensitive information out of. people better with statements than. questions. So, there's there's a few different. types of these statements. So, the first. one is called a provocative statement. And a provocative the statement is just. making a commentary on what somebody. said. So, let's say I just went through.

X, Y, and Z and you're like, so so. basically and then you kind of recap. what I said. >> Right. >> And so, no question and then I'll kind. of yeah, and so I'll kind of I'll keep. giving you a little bit more. information. The second is triggering a need to. correct the record. So, let's say you and I are in a grocery. store and I say, Joe, um let's say you. don't get recognized. Let's say go over. there. I want you to within 60 seconds I. want you to find out how much the girl. that's stocking the shelf over there.

makes per hour. So you might go over there and be like, "Hey, how much do you make an hour?" But. instantly you're weird and that feels. like an interrogation, right? But if you went over there and you said, "Hey, I just read this article everybody. that works at Whole Foods got bumped up. to $26 an hour. That's fantastic. Congratulations." And she's like, "What? >> [laughter]. >> We only make 22.". And now she doesn't feel interrogated. And the answer came from correcting the. record.

Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> So now you're not a weirdo who's asking. how much she makes. >> Yeah. >> So now you got the sensitive information. and it felt like it was just an. flowing conversation. So the third is disbelief. So somebody says something and you don't. get Jamie to pull up anything. But the disbelief is like they say, "Oh, and I've even worked with X and Y and Z. I've done this one thing." You're like, "What? There is no way. That just sounds. impossible.". And then they're like, "No, no, and and.

they'll keep going.". Because there wasn't a question. So. imagine if someone started telling you. something sensitive and you're like, "Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about. that." It seems like you're kind of. wanting to pull things out. So the more. that you can use statements, the more they're just going to keep. feeling completely comfortable giving. you stuff. >> What's interesting is I don't know those. methods, but I do all three of those. >> You do a lot of that stuff. >> Yeah. >> I just wanted you to be able to. consciously grab onto it. >> I just do it instinctively. >> Yeah, I've seen you do it many many.

times. >> When I smell. >> Yeah. >> my instinct is going, "Hold on. So what. you're saying is. and you just give a touch of. incredulity, just a little bit of. little bit of skepticism. >> Yeah. >> And then allow them to kind of like. expand on it and go, "Okay, so you're. saying that this All right, so are you. sure that that's the case? Because a lot of people think this.". No, no, no. And I do it sort of naturally. >> Yeah.

>> Because the the most important thing is. to listen as much as possible and keep. them talking. And um don't interrupt too much, but. sometimes you have to. Sometimes you. have to go like, "You're pushing to Hold. on. This is horse Like you This is. like I'm going to get grilled for this. online if I don't like stop this right. dead in its tracks because I know and. you know that you're lying.". >> Yeah. >> So, let's And then but you also got to. like keep them on the hook. So, like you. like you don't want to submit them yet.

You got to like, "Look, he got out of the armbar. Crazy.". >> And a couple of those you you make them. correct you. And you also say like, "Well, that had to be challenging." Or. that sounds fascinating. And just those. tiny little comments that just kind of. keep them pulling along. The Russians. did this to America during the Cold War. The a submarine would pull into. Singapore Thailand or something. And one. of the some KGB guy would go up There's. some 19-year-old sailor at a bar. And say like, "Well, we just Russia.

already has all these specs and. it's amazing that Russian submarines are. faster than US submarines because our. propellers are 19 ft wide.". And the sailor was like, "Yeah, ours are. 21." Like just. just correcting the record. Just a tiny little thing correcting the. record. And some 19-year-old kid gives. away top secret information in 35. seconds. >> Wow. >> Uh so, that's where this stuff came. about. Uh and when you're like a if you. work in the nuclear field, you have a.

top secret clearance. You have to go through anti-elicitation. training before you leave the country. and go spend time at a with some foreign. national company. >> hope so. >> Yeah. And you know what the number one. thing in the first day of. counterintelligence school, uh the first. thing they say is. if you're a four. and she's a 10 and she's interested in. you, she's [laughter] a spy. >> [gasps]. >> That is the the most primal and. effective of all tactics is hot women.

>> It is. >> And also. we see with James O'Keefe. chatty gay guys. You see a lot of like hot guys. >> Yes. >> Yeah, you get chatty gay guys give up a. lot of data. >> Yeah. >> They give up a lot of. information. >> Way more than I would ever think. >> Oh, it seems like the chatty gay guys. are worse even than the guys that are. trying to impress the women. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I wonder how far they have to go. I. wonder how many guys they have to sleep. with. >> I don't want to know. >> I wonder. I mean, for sure there's been.

a straight guy or two. Unless they recruit gay guys for the. job. You know. Cuz gay guys wouldn't feel nearly as bad. for having sex with another gay guy to. get information out of him. I think than. a woman would. A woman would feel like a. You know, a man who some. other guy that he'd PROBABLY. ANYWAY. >> [laughter]. >> IT'S PROBABLY NO BIG DEAL. YOU [snorts] KNOW, guys don't feel as. bad about that.

>> And have you ever read Red Queen? >> No. >> It's about biological behavior. It talks. about like adultery in females occurs. during ovulation most of the time and. >> Really? >> It's fascinating stuff in there. But one of them was that women are are. reluctant about sexual activity because. they face the risk of raising a child. alone. >> Mhm. >> Uh and it's not a a conscious thing. But like there's some biological driver. that says. if I am not careful here, I'm going to.

be stuck with this child alone and if I. have and 200,000 years ago, if you're. if someone abandons you and you're. pregnant and then you're raising a child. on your own, you're kind of off the. market uh for and no one's bringing you. meat. No one's bringing you, you know, fish out of the river and all this kind. of stuff. So, I I thought that was interesting and. that may be one of the reasons that it's. it might be easier for dudes to go do. something like that. >> Yeah. Well, we'd have to ask James. This. got to be It's got to be a reason. Well,

it's also. >> [clears throat]. >> um. I think especially in politics, there's. a large amount of in-the-closet gay guys. that are. in all sorts of levels of politics, all. sorts of levels of government. >> Yeah. I I have no doubt. I think it's. been that way since Rome, though. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um. Well, it's a very particular kind of. person in the first place that wants to. control all the other people. >> Yeah, well, you know the difference. between today and Rome?

Is the concealment of the shame about. it. And I think most people don't know the. difference between shame and guilt. I think they. that shame is a destructive force. There's nothing good about it. There's. nothing positive about it. Um it. guilt is focused on understanding the. behavior. and shame is focused on the person, the. identity of the person who did it. And. there's nothing productive like beating. the out of yourself emotionally. does not make the other person who. you've harmed any better. It doesn't.

make the world any better. It's it's a. down. I made a video on my YouTube channel. uh. basically giving a review and a tutorial. of Planet Earth as if it was a video. game. And like. >> What's that video called? >> Uh I think it's called Earth is a game. >> Ooh. >> So, it's basically like a 20-minute like. I'm with without breaking character, like I'm giving a review. I'm actually. in the game right now and I'm making a. tutorial and a review of this video game. that we call Earth.

And. one of the things I said in the video is. like the developers don't tell you like. what the main goals are of the game. Like how do I get on the leaderboard? What what's the way that What how do you. win? And we went through like 10 different. metrics, but at the end of the day. uh I think what gets you on the. leaderboard is were you an upward force. on most people's lives that you that you. encountered? Did you leave people better. than you found them? And that's about. it. That's about it. >> Wow.

>> It's like am I a downward force on other. people? Am I pushing people down. constantly? Am I Or am I just doing. something else? And you remember like. the the moment you launch into DMT, you're like, "Oh my god, I was worried. about taxes?". >> [laughter]. >> I'm 17 black holes away and I was. worried about my I-9 form or something. I thought that was such a big deal. And. it's the same thing that people. like I think if you want to learn the. number one and this is my I'm I'm.

rambling, but. the number one lesson I think most. people can learn is from people that are. dying. People on their deathbed, there's. no better book you could read about how. to how to master this game, about how to. get good at Earth, is reading the. regrets of dying people. Cuz in- there's so much clarity at at. these moments where you know you're. going to die. Like, "Oh my god, I. thought all this I thought that. Lexus I thought I had to get the Lexus. I had to impress everybody at the. country club who didn't give a. about me.". And I didn't spend time with my. grandkids. I didn't spend time with my.

kids. Like everything gets so crystal clear in. those moments that I think those are the. best books in the world. Like you read I. think there's a lot of nurses that work. in hospice that write. and like collect a lot of these things. And it's just. so much perspective on what we think is. so important and then at that moment. like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I. prioritized all this shit.". >> Absolutely. I think this is the perfect. way to end this. >> Yeah, man. >> That was awesome. Thank you very much. Okay, so um. Station one? Is that what it is? Channel.

one or Station one? >> one. >> Station one on YouTube. >> Yep. >> And then your show is What's the. channel? >> Or Chase Hughes on YouTube. >> Chase Hughes and Station one. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much, man. Really. appreciate it. It's awesome. It's really. really good stuff. >> Thanks, man. >> Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [music] See you. >> [music].