Joe Rogan Experience #2513 - Dean Radin

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> Thank you for being here. >> Good to be here. >> I'm excited [music] to talk to you. Did you maybe manifest this conversation. somehow? >> Maybe. >> [laughter]. >> Um, I've seen a bunch of your talks. online and um, the. first of all, let's start from the beginning. Like, what is What is your background?

>> Uh, I thought I'd give you a 40 45-year. arc. >> Okay. >> in about 3 minutes. >> Perfect. >> because then there's a lot of places you. can get into it. So, I started out as a. musician, violin, uh, up until about halfway through. college and then I realized to be a. musician means you have to be an athlete. because you're making your living with. your body. No one told me that up through until I. finally decided that I don't think I.

want to make my living with my body. because I've never been very strong and. more importantly, you also need to have. a lot of stamina. and I didn't have that. >> And you weren't interested in gaining. it? >> I I couldn't. I I have a genetic. mutation that that created uh, like most people when they exercise, you. feel really good afterwards. I feel. really exhausted and I never understood. why until many years later I realized. that I have something called Gilbert's. Syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver.

enzyme. and you have no recovery time. >> Woah. >> Yeah. So, >> Is there anything they can do for that? >> Other than something like genetic. engineering, which I've never heard. anybody try yet, the answer is no. >> I've never heard of that condition. before, I don't think. >> Yeah. It's uh, there's some missing. enzymes and more importantly, the. bilirubin, which is unconjugated bilirubin, you have way too too of it. So, there's. an upside and a downside. The downside. is that there you you can't recover from.

exercise quickly. And so, there's a lot. of fatigue that happens. The upside is. that unconjugated bilirubin is an. antioxidant. It's one of the most natural. antioxidant. So, my cardiovascular. system is like a 20-year-old. >> Oh. So, you got your pros and your cons with. this. >> Yeah. >> Have you ever tried exercising in very. small doses, like throughout the day? >> Well, I I walk every day. So, that's. that's my primary exercise.

>> That's always great exercise. >> Yeah. If I walk too fast, too hard, I will feel it for the next three or. four days. >> Wow. Uh still too fast, too hard, too long? >> Yeah. >> So, what if you do like two push-ups, and then just do two push-ups like 4. hours later, and then two push-ups like. 4 hours later? >> can do that. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I can do seven push-ups. >> Yeah, maybe that's the move. Maybe the. move is just make yourself do things. very lightly throughout the day, just to. keep your bone mass and all that.

>> Yeah. >> good stuff that we lose when we get. older. >> Yeah. >> You know, but it sounds like there's a. pro. The cardiovascular benefit is. pretty sweet. >> Yeah. So, when you get to a certain age, your your doctor says, "Uh let's take a. uh cardiac calcium scan and see what. what are your arteries doing?" And the. the range is from zero, so they don't. see anything in there, up to 100 where. you're basically about to die. So, I my doctor did said does do that.

because your cholesterol's like off uh. it's way too high. And I have zero. >> Oh, wow. >> And say, "Well, how how could you have. zero?" Cuz I'm 74. I should not be zero, but I do. And it's because of this. >> really good for 74. >> Thank you. >> You do. You You look like maybe 15, 20. years younger than you're supposed to. look. >> Yeah. So, that's the other advantage of. this particular mutation is longevity. >> Damn, son. Well, that's good. There's a positive to.

it. So, violinists Can I ask you this, totally unrelated. What is the. difference between violin and a fiddle? >> Well, a violin is a career track towards. concert violinist. So, it it classical. music. >> So, it's how you play it? >> It's partially how you play it, but it's. mostly about the nature of the music. that you're playing. >> So, is it just how it's referred in. different cultures? Like in southern. music, it would be a fiddle. >> It's also style. It's style and it's.

also. the intonation. Like if you're if you. did like I did, I had transitioned from. classical violin when I knew I wasn't. going to do that as a career. into bluegrass fiddle and banjo. >> Oh. >> So, I actually ended up playing 25. years, the last 5 years being bluegrass. And so, there. I actually had to learn not to play that. well. Like you have to you have. It sounds better for bluegrass if you're. a little bit off tune and you're not. you're not holding it right and it's.

>> authentic. >> Yes. >> Scratchy, something to it. >> in fact, in graduate school, I. I was in the competition for the. Illinois State Fiddler Contest. And so, I was probably 25 or something. at the time. Uh and Alison Krauss was like a like a. teenager and she was in the same. competition and I lost miserably and she. was incredible even at that time. >> Who is she? >> Alison Krauss? >> I don't know who she is.

Sorry. >> She She is a. >> who she is, Jamie? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, she's a very very well-known. somewhere between country singer, but. she plays the violin and the fiddle and. has a fantastic voice. >> of the loop. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. If If heard if you heard one of. her songs, I'm sure you would know it. >> Yeah, if you. made me name a fiddler, I would say. Well, The Devil Went Down to Georgia was the. first time like America really. understood of like popular culture like.

the fiddle got introduced. Is that fair. to say? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like that for a lot of people, that. song, the Charlie Daniels Jr. song, that's that's the fiddle. >> Yeah, that's like. >> Is that good? >> Well, yeah, it was pretty good. It's a. little bit like fiddle on steroids, but. yeah. >> But I mean like as a fiddler, do you. hear that or is it like only for the. unwashed masses that think that's good? >> [clears throat]. >> it's good good fiddling, yeah. Yeah, it's fiddling around. >> It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry to. for the side track. So, um.

>> Okay, so I did that for for 20 years or. so and then in the middle of college I. decided I think I want to get a job. where I could use my mind instead of my. body. So, I switched into electrical. engineering. Uh why? Because I like to take stuff. apart and I I used to make things in. high school. Uh. So, then I didn't know what I wanted to. do after I got my degree, so I went on. to get a master's in electrical. engineering. And then I didn't want to be an. electrical engineer anymore, so I got a. PhD in experimental psychology.

And so it it sounds like like flipping. back and forth between lots of different. things and it kind of is. But you'll see that my career is a. little bit like a game show and that uh. you're presented with this is what you. could do like forever. Or you can choose door number two. And almost always chose door number two. because like I I would do this for a. while and say I could sort of understand. that now. I want to do something. different. Door number two.

So, in the as a senior in college, uh I. learned about this place called the. Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was started by Apollo 14 astronaut. Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on. the moon. and on the way back to the earth he had. a mystical experience. And so today a lot of people who go into. space talk about the overview effect and. he was one of the first to talk about it. openly even though all of the other. astronauts had it. It expresses itself in different ways.

So people generally will turn from. whatever they were, it's a. transformative experience and they. become different. And so. in his way of expressing that after the. mystical experience and thinking what in. the world is that cuz he felt one with. the universe literally. he decided to create this institute that. would study. what he had been studying for outer. space but for an inner space. to explore inner space. So I remember in college reading about. this new institute and their motto was.

uh. the exploring the frontiers of. consciousness. And I thought. that sounds like something I want to do. But there wasn't any place to do that. other than this one institute. So I. always had in the back of my mind. that that's that's where I want to end. up. >> What does that term noetic I know I've. heard it before but I I never looked it. up. >> Noetic. So noetic is. uh a feeling of intuition except that it. carries a sense of certainty that the.

intuition is correct. >> Hmm. >> So intuition is knowing something. without knowing how you know it. It just. sort of arrives. But it's knowing with with certainty and. more often than not the certainty is. correct. So people talk about downloads in. meditation and other places, that's what. that is. >> This is a subject that. up until I would say last couple decades. was pretty openly dismissed by rational. people.

Right? There's there's almost like um. a desire to dismiss it. Like a desire to. define the world in much clearer terms. where it's maybe ego-driven, you're in. control of your own destiny, and then. there's certain factors that are out of. your control, and just this is how it. is, and this is life, deal with it. And. all this mystical, woo-woo magic. that people have been talking. about for some strange reason for. thousands of years. that we just dismiss, and we dismiss it. um under the narrative of science. We're.

talking about science. We're science. people. We want data. But there is data. That's what's weird. And if you're willing to look a little. preposterous, which I certainly am, uh I think it's a good thing to do every. now and then. Take a chance and try to figure. out if the world is exactly constructed. the way you've been told. Because it. might not be. There might be some. weirdness to it all. And it seems like. we all agree. We all agree there is some weirdness.

You could chalk it off to coincidence. when you think about a person and you. haven't thought about them forever, and. all of a sudden they call you. You. There's There's some weirdness in the. world. There's some weirdness in the world like. knowing not to do something, and then. something happens. There's some weirdness in knowing. something's going to happen, and you. ignore that feeling, and then something. terrible happens. You're like, "Fuck, I. knew I shouldn't have gone there.". There's There's weirdness in the world. And it's not necessarily just pattern. recognition and.

under-. them before. There's something to that, too. That's part of it, too. But there's also something else. There's. some weird connection that people have. There's a thing that you when you know. someone's mad at you, and they don't say. anything, you're like, "What is this. weird energy I'm getting off. this guy?" There's some stuff we're. we're experiencing in the world that you. can't put on a scale. You can't put a. tape measure to it. You know, you can't. you can't measure its density, but it's. there. There's something. And we have a.

very limited amount of senses in terms. of our ability to see, feel, touch, smell. It's not enough. It's probably some other stuff out there. that we don't have the tools to measure, but it impacts us. >> But we do have the tools to measure. So that's what attracted me to the rest. of my career. Because exactly for the same reason you. just said that people have experiences, often times they feel pretty strange, and so they start looking for well what. what is that? So if you go to a like a.

conventional science spokesperson, they. will echo back exactly what you're. saying. It's coincidence, it's a it's. faulty of memory, all of that stuff. But I learned. early on even in college that there is a. branch of science that has studied these. things. I mean it's been going on since the late. 1800s that the scientists have been. interested in these kinds of phenomena. And science is really really good at. taking even strange subjective. experiences and figuring out is that a. coincidence or is that what what is.

that? Is it real? That attracted me. So and it it partially came out of. reading a lot of science fiction. So you know science fiction is saturated. with these kinds of stories where the. the element of the story is a revolving. around some kind of psychic or noetic. thing. >> The force. >> Yeah. >> Classically. >> The force in. in Dune the series, Frank Herbert's Dune. series, the whole thing about spice. Why did they have to take spice? Because. that's the only way you can navigate.

when you're you're jumping through. wormholes. Like you needed to know what. you're about to expect on the other. side. It just saturates novels and science. fiction. It's there. And generally if if you have a topic. that people are paying attention to like. that and are very popular, it's because. something is resonating. Like if if if it was so strange that. nobody even had a way of thinking about. it, it it wouldn't be popular. But it is It's perennially popular. So,

so I took the science fiction interest. and as a even younger kid about fairy. tales, which is saturated with these. things, too, and I thought, well, that I wonder if. that's real. But then you kind of get shuttled into a. scientific career and one thing that. happens for fledgling engineers and. scientists and for a lot of other. academics is they're being taught a set. of assumptions about the way that the. world works. called materialism or physicalism. And the thing is you're not taught that. that is a set of assumptions. You take.

it for granted after a while cuz after. you go through college for 20 plus years. and no one ever mentions. that we're working under a set of. assumptions, a materialism, and no one. ever talks about the philosophy of. science, which is all about studying the. assumptions and are they correct? Once you do start studying the. philosophy of science, you find out that. there's lots of different ways of. understanding reality. And so there's the whole materialistic. side, which is really, really good. at explaining aspects of the physical.

world. It It gives us these kinds of. technologies. But it doesn't explain subjective. experience at all. And so that's that's like the existing. number one mystery in science today. because you have to challenge the idea. that materialism is all there is. And so people have weird experiences, they're talking about a more. comprehensive way of understanding. reality. That's what's going on. And so. that's that's why I end up writing a. book like this.

So, the magic here is not stage magic. It's It's the real magic, which we don't. have a name for yet. >> When they first started studying this in. the 1800s, what were they specifically. trying to isolate or figure out? >> Well, just like today, people would see. apparitions, they would have the sense. that there were telepathic connections. between people, uh they'd did precognitions, and that. was the beginning of figuring out ways. of using experimental science to be able. to study these things under controlled.

conditions. And And the word control is important. because it means you exclude coincidence. by the design, and you exclude leakage. of information, you exclude all kinds of. things. So, the only thing left over is. if that telepathic thing was real, then we'd be able to see it in the lab. And the short story is, yeah. So, we're. now 150 years past that, and we have. very, very strong evidence that. telepathy does exist. >> So, what was the first evidence that. they.

they were able to get out of these. initial experiments? >> They used to call it thought. transference. And so, the methods they. were using then would not pass muster. today. They They would have like two kids who. say we can we can. we can do telepathic transfer between. us. And then many times they would find that. the kids were using some kind of signal. And so, that that wouldn't work today. Today, people have to be strictly. isolated. Uh, neither can know what the target is. that they're trying to transfer to the. other person.

And we do lots and lots of replications. with lots of people. And so, that that then forms a body of. evidence where it becomes extremely. difficult to think of what the flaw. might be. And in fact, if you ask. skeptics about it who know the. literature, their usual response now is either. uh, there's no plausible flaw that they. can identify because a lot of time has. been spent to figure out what might be a. flaw. And the second response, which is more. recent now, is we're not even going to.

look at the evidence because we know. it's impossible. Which is no longer a scientific. argument, but that's that's the. approach. We're not going to look at the. data. >> That's silly. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's really silly when you. consider the intelligence agencies have. spent an enormous amount of money and a. considerable amount of time studying. remote viewing. Like, why? Why would they invest that much time in. nonsense? Why would they invest that. much time in something where there's no. evidence whatsoever and they've never. achieved positive results? That doesn't. seem to be correct.

>> No. >> If you just If you listen to the stories. of the guys like Hal Puthoff and all. these different people that have been. involved in these. remote viewing experiments, they had. actionable data that they they they. derived specifically from remote. viewing. I don't understand it. I can't. I've never done it. I've never attempted. it. I don't know if I can do it. I did. it once. Uh we we had an experiment on a. television show that I did where we had. this guy who claimed to be a remote. viewer remote view this area and it was. he was off, but it was also under duress.

with cameras. Like, is that the state of. mind that you want to be in when you're. trying to remote view? No, that's not. ideal at all. And that is a factor, a. major factor in. whether or not you can understand. intuition. Is where where What is your. state of mind? Are you in a place of. complete anxiety and fear or are you. totally relaxed and focused on what. you're doing? Is there any distractions? Is there a jackhammer nearby? Is there a. dog barking? What Is there something. that could interrupt this.

state of mind that you're trying to. achieve? Because. there's different states of mind. We. know this. We can measure this. We can. measure the brain waves. We can we can. we understand that the state of mind. it's not a static thing like a toaster. You know, it's not on or off. There's a. bunch of different going on in your. brain in your mind at any given time. And so, the idea that remote viewing, which is some very bizarre connection. that some people have to reality that's.

nowhere near local. They can describe. things in detail, talk about submarines. that are being constructed in the in. Soviet Union. Like, it's there's weird. to that. And if you dis- if you. just dismiss that, you're being a fool. There's something there. And the only way anybody figures out. there's something there is if you study. it. If actually intelligent people are. willing to look a little foolish and. spend some time studying it. This. episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening.

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back. Switch today at visible.com. Plans start at just $25 a month or get. our premium Visible Plus Pro plan and. save $10 on your first month when you. use promo code Rogan. An exclusive offer. for podcast listeners. >> Right. So, that brings us to my next. job. So, after I got my my doctorate, I. started working at Bell Laboratories. >> Ooh. >> So, it was the biggest laboratory in the.

world at the time. It was still the Bell. System. And because I was interested in these. kinds of things, for some of my time at. Bell Labs, I started doing little. psychic experiments. involving mind-matter interaction and. also involving precognition. So, there's there's a an ongoing link here. that goes back to the Institute of. Noetic Sciences in a strange way. Edgar Mitchell was gave the first money. to SRI International, which is where Hal. Puthoff and Russell Targ was, to do.

remote viewing studies. He also brought Uri Geller to the United. States and he brought the SRI and a. bunch of other places including Bell. Labs. So when I was working at the labs, I. knew that there had been people who had. seen some of the stuff that Geller did. And I was doing these little psychic. things. So I asked for permission to be. able to present some of the work I was. doing at a annual conference of the. Parapsychological Association. Which is an affiliate of the largest. scientific organization in the United.

States. The American Association for the. Advancement of Science. So many people don't know that the. Parapsychological Association is one of. the 200 some affiliates of the AAAS. So. legitimate scientific organization. So I. did this precognition test. I asked for. permission and I got permission not only. to give my presentation at the. conference but to use the Bell Labs. imprimatur. So I was giving this as some guy from. Bell Labs. Talking to this audience.

Unbeknownst to me. There were a few people in the audience. who came up afterwards and one of them. said, "Uh if there was an opening would be. you'd be interested in joining the. Stargate program.". >> Whoa. >> And so that was an offer I couldn't. refuse. That's one of these cases of you. have this door or you have that door. Well that door looked really interesting. because. it was known at the time that there were. people at SRI doing this sort of thing. but the classified portions were a. rumor. Like nobody knew what was really going.

on. >> Right. >> So I took a leave of absence. >> That must have been exciting. >> Yeah. >> You get that offer? Stargate? >> Yeah, are you kidding? >> Holy. >> So I took a leave of absence for 1 year. from Bell Labs. And so I went to SRI International. Hal Puthoff was my boss and then Ed May. when Hal left in 1985 Ed May took over. He's may not be a name that is known as. well but he was the director for 10. years.

Uh and so I worked on that project and. it took a long time to get the. clearances because, first of all, I. didn't know anything about. classification or anything, but I. figured, well, maybe it's just secret. No, it's just top secret. No, it's top. secret SCI. No, it's top secret SCI. special access program, which means. there's literally a book that you have. to sign, and you can see all the other. people who have signed that book. Special access means.

even if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know about this place. You cannot know about the code word. You. can't The code word was classified. So, I mean, it would seems kind of odd. because if you have a code word, it's. not saying anything, but nevertheless, that's how it worked. >> Wow. >> So, we were the research side of people. who talk about Stargate, mostly they're. talking about the military side, the. operational side. Well, we knew what. they were doing, but our mission was. different. Our mission was figure out.

those questions that you're asking. How. does this stuff work? Like, is it real? Yes. Some people are very talented. Uh, what. are the limits of it? Can you block it? Can you shield it? Can you do. camouflage? And one of the main areas was. what's the difference between someone. like Joe McMoneagle who was a superstar. in this area? Why is he any different than anybody. else? Because, like when I first met the Ingo. Swann and Joe and a bunch of other. people,

they were the kind of they were so. different than my stereotype of Madame. Zodiac that that they like I say, you. got to be kidding. These people are. remote viewers? They're just like guys and gals. And so every method was used to try to. figure out is it psychological. difference? Is it physiological? Is it. medical? What what is it? And the answer. was we couldn't find anything. Now, there may be some background about. the people themselves, but in terms of. finding out something that we could use.

to select because the the army and. others were interested in getting lots. of other people who would be talented, too. >> So, there's no consistent factors? >> No, there wasn't wasn't anything. >> Wow. >> So, >> that seems crazy. >> Except maybe talent. Two things, talent. and openness. So, talent is natural talent. It's it it. partially based on genetics. And openness is a psychological trait. where you're simply open to experience. So, people who tend to be. to have like a certain way of thinking.

about things and are not not open to. other stuff, they block it. They could block it real. good. People who are open to experience and. willing to try new things, they in. general tend to do better. So, that brings us to talent, which I'll get. to a little bit later, especially about. the genetics of talent. So, we didn't have the genetic tools at. the time. Now we do have the genetic tools, and so. we've done a couple of studies looking. for what we call the psi gene.

>> [clears throat]. >> So, we. we think we're on to something. Okay, so so I work on Stargate for a. year, uh the I go back to Bell Labs and. almost immediately get another. invitation. It's one of these doors open. again. How would you like to go to. Princeton? Because at Princeton at the time was the. Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research. Laboratory. It was the a lab doing psi research that. was headed by the dean of the school of. engineering. And so that lab went almost for 30 years.

doing mind-matter interaction, doing. remote viewing, and a bunch of other. stuff. At Princeton, so my position was in the psych. department cuz that's where I had my. PhD, but to lead a program among many. departments, one of which was the PEAR. lab. And the idea was. uh in order to have any chance of. beginning to understand this stuff, you. need to pull in every discipline because. it's way too big. It's It's too. complicated for a single discipline.

So, we had the philosophy department and. the psychology department and civil. engineering and the parallel lab and a. bunch of other departments. My job was. sort of corral it together to create. multi-disciplinary. research projects. And I was told on day one, that's. impossible. You This is a job you cannot. do. Well, why? I mean, we had the money for. it. And the answer is that in the academic. world, you succeed within silos. You know an enormous amount about a very.

particular kind of topic. Like even in the psych department there, you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social. psychologists, and on and on and on. They don't even talk to each other. because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo. My job was to. sort of mash it together and it was. ridiculously complicated. >> Was there resistance? >> Oh my god. Resistance is not quite strong enough. >> [laughter]. >> It's like uh each one of the departments.

was getting money from this big grant. that we had, so they were willing to. play the game, but when it actually came. down to doing some kind of a. cross-filtering, well, no. >> Why didn't they want to collaborate? >> Because everything of value in the. academic world is in your silo. And so, if you're trying to work across. silos, again, even within the same. department, social psychology and perceptual. psychology might not even talk to each. other. And they had their offices that. were right next to each other.

But that's simply the way that. >> It's insane. >> Yeah, but it also it sort of makes sense. when you think about it. To become an. expert in something. takes 20 years from from the university. and then the rest of your academic. career just to keep up with it. So, it kind of makes sense that you. don't want to start. turning your attention off to something. else because you're not in that. department anymore. So, it it's a problem and it's always. been there. It's not getting any better, either. >> Well, it seems like there should be a. way to fix that. The ultimate goal. should be whatever we're all working on.

collectively should benefit mankind. And. if you're in the. psychology industry, which you are if. you're teaching psychology, if you're. working on psychology, you should want. to get. involved in this. The The fact they're. all siloed off like that seems insane. >> Yeah, so the the approach that's. sometimes taken in the academic world is. to create a center. Center for the study. of fill in the blank. That brings in people from different. disciplines and then they kind of force. together. >> But these people from different. disciplines probably already working on.

important stuff to them and this is. taking away from their time. >> It It could be except that. depending on the nature of the work, it. may be something that requires another. discipline. So, you might have somebody. in computer science who's working on. that and then you have somebody in. psychology who's interested in the human. side, like how do you connect the. computer and the people? >> Mhm. >> Well, there's a subdiscipline called. human factors. That's where I was. working in Bell Labs cuz I had. engineering and psychology. So, you kind. of mash those two together and then you. could actually learn some new stuff.

that's of value to both. And also you That's how you create new. disciplines. That's how the discipline. of neuroscience began. So, you go back now it's more like 60 to. 70 years ago, somebody noticed that you have all these. people in biology and all these people. looking at cells and all people looking. at at things having to do. with with the nervous system, they were. all different disciplines. So, a a large foundation came along and. said, "I think we need to create a. discipline of the neurosciences.".

And they threw enough money at it to. bring people together and that formed. the new discipline. So, I work in the area of consciousness. studies, which is only now starting to. become its own discipline. >> Mhm. >> Because before that, it was maybe a few. philosophers interested in it, and. anesthesiologists, and that's it. But, it's changing. >> So, when you were at Princeton, what. what specifically did How did you start. it? Like, what what specifically were. you working on initially? >> Well, besides trying to get people to.

talk to each other, which was. frustrating. >> task. >> Yeah. So, one of the things I did was. meta-analysis. So, this is a way. of taking the results of individual. experiments that are similar to each. other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together with a. statistical method to see whether. independent people are able to replicate. the same thing. It's called meta-analysis. Meta meaning. it's like an analysis of analyses. And so, it answers two questions. One.

is, if this is really real in a. scientific sense, then other independent. people ought to be able to do the same. experiment and get the same result. So, that's one part. The other part is, if you do have a lot of people doing the. same experiment, then what is the. overall result? It's like one gigantic. experiment now. So, I I did a number of meta-analyses, and then I was writing a book on it that. nobody wanted to buy, so it just sat. there. Uh and then I was doing experiments on. precognition as as part of my job. And.

because of my engineering background, I. was using. the ver- the latest version of machine. learning at the time, which was neural. networks, and applying it to the data. from the PEAR lab to see if uh you know, when you do an experiment involving. mind-matter interaction, you usually use. a random number generator, and you ask. somebody this thing is You tell them, "This is going to push out a whole bunch. of bits, random bits, and I want you to. make more one bits than zero bits. That's your task." So, they press a. button, and they get some kind of.

result. And now, make more zero bits. And now, don't do anything. So, this is a uh. three different kinds of tasks in one. session. And so, what what they were finding was. that in general, if you run a lot of. people in this kind of task, yes, their. intention makes the bits go in the. direction that you want. So, aim high, goes up, aim low, goes down, so on. So, the question then is. not everybody can do that. Some people.

get the opposite result. Some Some. people get really good at making it go. high, but they can't make it go low. So, the idea came about there's a something. like a signature. that was from each person. People had a. way of interacting with the machine that. made it do certain things that was. unique to them, but overall, it worked. out. So, I started using neural networks. to see if I could train a neural network. to tell who was doing the task based on. how the random bits were working.

And it turns out you can. So, when I left Princeton, because it. was getting way too frustrating, I took. that idea. >> to get people to work together. >> Trying to to do this multi-disciplinary. teams. It Yeah, and as I told you, the. first day I was there for the job, I was. told, "By the way, you have you have an. impossible job. It's necessary though, because this was part of the grant. What you're doing is part of the grant. So, you have to do it anyway." And I I. did it for 3 years, and then I decided I.

I didn't want to do that anymore. But so, I went back to to industry, but. I specifically told the people I was. interviewing with, "I want to pursue. this. Like, this is the beginning of a. technology where that will have a. machine identify who you are and your. intention, kind of like Neuralink, except there's. no connection. There's nothing going in. the brain. It's purely intention.". So, I did end up working for a company. outside of Washington, D.C., where part of my work was doing exactly.

that. We were using more advanced neural. networks with random number generators. and got to the point where. uh we're about to set a patent for this. device cuz it worked. And the head of the organization at the. time was a retired general who had a. buddy who was an admiral. and he said that the navy's interested. in this. For kind of for obvious reasons, they. want ways of communicating with. submarines. So, uh at that point, we're like right on.

the edge of doing that and we get bought. by another company. And the new company said, "You're not. going to work on that anymore.". So, the wheels internally started think. it was like golden handcuffs. A lot of. money, but let's I mean it's a very good. position, but I didn't really want to do. that anymore. >> Did they have a re- Was it a profitable. issue? >> The vice president in charge of the lab. did not believe that it was possible. >> Oh, god. >> didn't look at the data. >> Of course. >> So, he said, "No, we're not going to do.

that.". >> He doesn't want to be silly. >> Yeah. So, I I mean it's so frustrating. You. have the It worked. We have a thing. here. It's working. No, he just he didn't want to do it. >> Oh, that's so frustrating. >> Yeah. So, few years goes by. I kept. doing all this stuff on the side now. outside of work cuz it was just too. interesting to drop. Uh. my There was a recession. This was 1992. There were a recession. Uh. part of my department was laid off. including myself. So,

unbeknownst to most people at the time. that the Stargate program. uh and by the way, it wasn't called. Stargate then. There's a lot of code. words involved, but it's just known as. Stargate, so we'll use that. That program was giving classified. contracts to other people. around the world including at the. University of Edinburgh. in Scotland. So, we had a colleague at the University. of Edinburgh who was creating an. automated Ganzfeld testing system. This. is a telepathy system where you press a.

button and the people are involved and. everything is automated. It's kind of. getting the human out of the loop except. for the two people in the experiment. Well, the man who was developing that. unfortunately died. And so this was an unfinished project. So I went to Ed May who was director of. Cart Stargate at the time and I said, "Well, can I go there and finish the. project?". Yes, sure. Okay. So I went to the. University of Edinburgh for about a year. and I worked on this project to finish.

the automated telepathy system and. they've run many, many, many people. through that system by now. Um. And so while I was there, I finished. that pretty quickly. I was starting to. develop the presentiment experiment. And. yet Julia Mossbridge on the show. recently. So she was I think she was. talking about this experiment where you. can see if somebody's body is reacting. to something in the future that is. unanticipated, that's random. Well, I I. was developing that at the time. This.

would have been around '93 or so. And I. uh. And so let me let me tell you a story. about. the kind of effect that gave me the idea. to do this experiment. So the the usual way that people talk. about it is that you're you drive to. work the same way every every day. thousands of times and you have a. traffic light that you're coming up to. and it's green. Normally you'd start. accelerating towards it because you want. to get through the light. Something.

tells you today there's something wrong. I don't know what it is, but I'm going. to slow down. And you keep slowing down. The cars behind you are beeping and. saying, "What what's going on?" You get. almost up to the intersection and a. truck blasts through their red light and. you would have been hit broadside if you. didn't slow down. So you have this momentary shock of. relief realizing that you just saved. your life by paying attention to that. little voice inside your head. So, I thought, "Okay, let's simulate. that in the laboratory.". Well, we can't put people in danger, but.

we can do emotional tests like that. So, you wire somebody up looking at skin. conductance or pupil dilation or brain. waves, all kinds of things in your. nervous system. And then you just record that. continually, tell them press a button, and then they're going to see something. on a screen. So, it could be a very calm picture or. it could be a very emotional picture. So, emotion can split in two ways. It. could be a very negative picture like. picture of surgery or an explosion or.

something, or it could be a positive. like a smiling baby. So, there are two different balances. they're called. And you don't know which is going to. come up because a true random number. generator's the thing that decides. after you press the button, then it. decides what it's going to show you. So, nobody knows in advance including. the experimenter. So, I set up an experiment to do that. Uh and by this time I already had left. Edinburgh. I had to make a decision then. again, do you want to go back into.

industry? And I had an offer from Oak. Ridge National Labs, which would have put me back in the. classified world, or this other. opportunity which was to uh work at at. University of Nevada funded by Robert. Bigelow, who's probably best known for. the ASAP program. >> before. >> Yeah. So, Bigelow was very generously said, "Yeah, well, I'll pay for your way to go into. the university there." And I was able to. run my own lab. So, the one of the very. first things I set up then was first of.

all, I want to continue working on this. neural network or machine learning. method that for making a technology of. intention. That was one of the things. But the other one was this presentiment. experiment. So, I ran that experiment. and it was unbelievably good. Like it's. it's normally you have little. statistical effects. This is like in your face, holy smoke, this is a big thing. Big big. uh pre-. presentiment effects. Like if a skin conductance, 1 and 1/2.

seconds before you. Well, you press a button, you wait 5. seconds. Then it selects a picture. So, 1 and 1/2. seconds before the picture is selected, if it's emotional, you start to become. emotional. If it's calm, you remain. calm. So, that difference. beforehand, we call the presentiment. effect. It's your body somehow or. unconscious knowing what you're about to. see. Just like approaching a light and. slowing down, something is telling you. something. So, we did that experiment and I told.

this to one of the guys at the at the. center I was working at, and he told me. a story. which is. far more. interesting than. than not going through a a red light. So, the story is this. So, he used to go hunting with his. buddies, and they had a whole bunch of. guns. His favorite gun was a six-shot. revolver, a double-action revolver. And. so, with the way that he he would take. all the bullets out, he'd clean the. whole thing out, and he'd put in 1 2 3 4.

5 bullets and leave the hammer over the. empty chamber, so it wouldn't get. jostled accidentally. So, he's cleaning the gun, he's putting. in bullet 1 2 3 4, he picks up the fifth. bullet, and he has that feeling. Something about this bullet isn't right. So, he didn't put it in, left it aside, put the hammer over cylinder six, and. then they went hunting. So, this is now 2 weeks in advance. They they come back from hunting, his. pistol wasn't used, and a bunch of other. guns weren't used, but they do what you.

should not do after you go hunting, which is starting to drink. So, they're all getting a little bit too. tipsy and drinking too much, and a fight. breaks out between two people there. One. of them picks up my friend's gun, points. it point-blank at somebody else, like. right in their face, and my friend is. now looking with horror because the. trigger's getting pulled. The hammer's. going back, the cylinder is turning, and. he's trying to intervene now. He steps. right in front of the gun, and it goes.

click. The hammer hit. It hit that fifth. chamber because it rotated from six to. five. >> Woah. >> So, he realized with horror at that. moment that if he had not taken out that. bullet, he would be shot in the head. And so, the afterwards he said, "Everyone has a bullet with their name. on it, and mine is in a safety deposit. box, and I know exactly where it is, and. it's not coming out.". >> Wow. >> So, that's a real-life version of this, which is 2 weeks in advance. At the.

laboratory, we can only look seconds in. advance. >> Also, you should have the intuition and. not go hunting and drinking with psychos. that are willing to shoot somebody in. the face over an argument. >> Nevertheless, yeah. So, so what happens? Uh yeah, so. >> That's crazy, though. >> So, that but see, this is this is where. we want to go in these kinds of. experiments. You need like real-life. stuff that you can actually test in a. controlled way in the laboratory. But, there's all kinds of ethical reasons, obviously, why you can't do that. But,

I'm pretty sure that if we're able to do. to get something at that level in the. laboratory, we would have much, much. stronger results than we currently do. >> Now, when it comes to things like remote. viewing and being able to be open and. being able to actually. pull it off and actually. remote view things that you can prove. What is the state of mind these people. are trying to achieve? Is And what is.

the protocol for achieving that state of. mind? >> It depends on whether you're naturally. talented or not. So, uh. Joe McMoneagle and a few others that. that I know, uh. if if you uh were to ask them at uh. at breakfast, uh. >> [clears throat]. >> could you remote view what I have in I. have a hidden folder over here? They. would continue eating and tell you the. answer immediately. So, for them, it doesn't take much at. all. And in fact, what Joe would say, and I I.

I have I have some pictures from what. Joe had done. Joe would say that uh if he knows in the. afternoon he's going to do a remote. viewing, he'll get all the information. in the morning. Like instantly. It'll just It'll just be. there. And then he has to wait until the. you know, the whole thing plays out, but. it's like bang, he got it. So, it's a. matter internally of simply knowing I. need to get this information and it. happens immediately. For people who don't have that natural. talent, you go through training. where and by the way, almost everybody.

can do this, but it does require some. training now. So, for a an average person, the training typically is to not name an. impression, which is really tough. So, you have a target, which may which. may be somewhere in the world, maybe a. person somewhere, maybe in an envelope, something like that. You're taught uh. the you will have something come to. mind. You know that that's the target. You have no idea what it is, but you. know that there is a target you're going. to have to describe. So, name the first.

thing that comes to mind, but not the. without naming it. So, you start little. scribbles, and then you have more. complicated scribbles, and you start. adding feelings and senses that are. associated with these scribbles. Eventually, you get to the point where. it's kind of all gels together, and then. you get a a coherent image. The problem is that if you tell somebody. I'm going to show you a picture in 20. minutes that you don't know what it is, and you say, "Okay, well, just imagine. what you're going to get." And you get a. flash of yellow,

you're instantly going to start thinking. of bananas. And once that happens, you can't not. think of bananas anymore. So, that's what I mean by not naming. >> Mhm. >> So, that's one of the very first things. that you learn is anything that comes to. mind that you have a name to is probably. not it. It takes practice, but you can get. there. >> Wow. What was the most impressive thing. that you ever saw anybody achieve with. remote viewing? >> After I got the clearances, uh Hal gave.

me the briefing that that everyone gets. like in in SCIFs and Congress and. presidents, whatever. I got the same. briefing. So, uh. one picture after the other of. experiments. by Joe and by a bunch of other people. who are not as well known. They basically give almost a veridical. drawing of the target. And these are. targets that are elsewhere in the world. These are targets that are in envelopes. These are targets that are in SCIFs. All. of all different kinds of targets.

Where nothing about the target is known. Like I will tell you a five-digit number. which stands for the target. And so, all. you have is a five-digit number. Now, give me a description of what I'm going. to show you in 2 hours. And they do it. >> So, you're putting the number to the. target. You're just saying like uh. Moscow is number 654. >> A random number, yes. >> And just by you attributing that number. to whatever this target is, there's a. connection made. >> Yep. >> What's happening? How is that.

>> Yep. >> [laughter]. >> So, >> What's that? >> Yeah, we we don't know why that is. Uh there are theories about it, and the. theory requires probably stepping away. from materialism as the only model of. reality. So, there are other models which allow. for consciousness, whatever that is, cuz. we don't know that either. But. consciousness seems to have a non-local. quality. So, it's the same kind of non-locality. that you talk about in quantum. mechanics. >> Mhm. >> So, quantum mechanics has entanglement,

which are non-local connections between. things. Uh it was also through time. So, connections through space and time. So, we know that that's a real thing. That's. what the physical world allows. It is as though consciousness, whatever. that is, also has that property. It is. non-local. So, if you push it hard enough, you end. up with something like the that movie uh. everything everywhere all at the same. time. That's basically what we're. talking about. There's an aspect of. reality which we don't ordinarily see,

but nevertheless connects everything. throughout space and time. And so, if it that were not true, then. things like precognition wouldn't work. so well, telepathy wouldn't work, remote. viewing wouldn't work. None of that. would work. But nevertheless, it does work. So, that. is like a more comprehensive way of. understanding what reality's like. >> Do you think this is an emerging quality. in human beings, or do you think this is. an atrophied quality that we used to all.

have before the development of written. language, books, media, all these. different things that sort of take away. this quiet communication that people. probably had with each other. We believe. wolves have that with each other. Wolves. coordinate somehow. They coordinate. attacks on animals. And it could be. through learned experience, but how do. they how do they remember it and know. what to do and how do each one have. specific roles? Like one wolf will chase. the elk into like a certain corridor,

and the other wolves will wait and be on. uh like a higher ground and come down. and attack. They know that they do weird. stuff that somehow or another requires. some kind of communication. >> Yes. And they're way more intelligent than we. have usually thought. >> Well, think about how intelligent some. dogs are. >> Yeah. >> You know, like a Belgian Malinois or. something like that. One of those dogs. they use for military training. Those. Those dogs are incredibly intelligent, and they need action exercise. They need. activities. They need things to. stimulate them, cuz their brain is like.

firing all day long. Wolf is that times. a hundred. >> Yeah. And so, most animals, plants, insects, maybe or. have consciousness in some form. And if. that consciousness is similar to ours, it is non-local. >> Do you think it's an emerging thing, or. do you think it's a thing that we've. always had? >> I I think that we are shaped as humans. by evolution to not pay attention to the. there and then. Because if we were paying attention to. there and then a lot, then you may not.

notice that there's a tiger in front of. you who's about to eat you. And so, if you like look over the the. long span of development of whatever it. is we are, people who are walking around thinking. about Pluto a million years ago would. have been pruned out of existence. >> [laughter]. >> So, only certain kinds of people. historically were able to do that. We. call them shaman. And the shaman as part of a tribe were. extremely important because they knew. the food would be 10 miles away that way.

next week. But the shaman typically could not take. care of themselves very well. You know, their their minds are off in Pluto, and. so the tribe took care of them. And so, today we don't have that very. much. There are. we're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same. uh kinds of needs that they would have. had 10, 20,000 years ago. Uh except in some indigenous societies. So, one time I gave a talk for the.

Australian government. There's a whole. bunch of ministers there and people in. the military, and I was talking about. this sort of stuff. And unbeknownst to me, one of the. ministers was representative of the. indigenous people there. So, I finished. this long talk on telepathy, uh and and she came up afterwards and. said, "Well, we've known this stuff for thousands of. years. That's they they would use it. Like in the Outback, there was no. phones, but somehow they were in. communications, part of the culture.". So, they didn't have the distractions.

and they had a need. So, you can imagine a more or less. isolated culture for a long period of. time that didn't have tigers immediately. al- always trying to capture them, they. had the need to be able to communicate. that way. We don't have the need anymore, so it. atrophies. >> Mhm. Okay. So, it atrophies and so it. with things like remote viewing, do you. think this is almost like a relearning. of a skill that people had at one point. in time? >> Yeah. And there's still some people who.

have some of the genetics because all of. this is basically is devolving back into. talent. Some people have that talent. >> And you think that's a genetic thing? >> I think a good chunk of it is genetic, yes. >> So, it's from people in their ancient. past that had that quality, had that. ability. And they passed on that trait. >> Yeah. >> This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer is great, isn't it? It's the. perfect season for adventures, but it. can also be pretty exhausting juggling. chaotic schedules and trying to make the.

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and how you can enjoy summer to the. fullest. You don't have to say yes to. everything this summer. Find support in. therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at. betterhelp.com/jre. That's better h e l p.com/jre. >> So, like in Joe McMoneagle's case, he. was one of those guys who did search and. rescue behind enemy lines. And he always came back. His team always. found their guy and they always came.

back alive. And and so, well, where did that come. from? Well, he used his intuition in the. field to decide let's not go down that. road, let's go over here. And and it was. safe. So, afterwards, when asked, when. there was recruiting for people who had. some abilities like this, they would ask. people like that, "Do you find like in. your in combat, you never get hit?". Okay, let's talk. Uh the other thing, of course, is did. you ever have any experiences beforehand. that suggests that maybe you had these.

experiences? Well, Joe did and his. sister did, too. So, there it suggests. again some kind of a familial genetic. underpinning for why people have. experiences. So, I will continue the story because. I'm going to intersect with this genetic. part in a minute. So, I'm at you and LV. doing all kinds of interesting stuff. Uh. somehow the the New York Times learns. about what I'm doing and they think it's. an interesting character story for a.

parapsychologist to be working. in Las Vegas. because Las Vegas is sometimes called. the the largest parapsychology lab in. the world. You have a whole bunch of. people trying to mentally influence more. more or less random systems, like they. are all the time. >> Mhm. >> So, okay. >> way to look at Vegas. >> Yeah. Well, it kind of is, right? You. toss the dice, you want a certain. result. Well, we do that in the. laboratory, except we don't have a lot. of money associated with it.

Uh I was able to actually get data from. one of the casinos, the smaller casinos, and the because the general manager was. interested in what I was doing. So I. said, well, can I get all the data as. much as you have on jackpots. for slot machines and also the table. games? And a miracle occurred and she said, yeah. So she gave us the data, was able. to analyze it and among other things. found that jackpots happen more often. and payouts happened were larger. and table games did better between one.

one or plus or minus one day from the. full moon. And which by the way matches magical. lore. I mean all kinds of things are are. related to when the full moon happens. Religious effects and all kinds of. things. So I thought, well, that's interesting. More jackpots happen. plus or minus the day of the full moon. I And that's why I said to the general. manager, maybe this is something you don't want. to tell people. cuz they'll all start coming in the full. moon. She said, yeah.

Bring them in because all you could do. with this information was lose a little. bit slower. Because everything is, you know, you. Vegas. >> Rigged. >> Yeah, it was not rigged but it's set up. in such a way that the odds are against. you. >> Yeah. >> So you would lose slower. But but. nevertheless, you'd see that in the. data. So there's something interesting. Okay. So I I get to the to the end of my. time at UNLV and a new door opens. And it partially because I because of. the New York Times piece, that book that.

I had written at Princeton that nobody. wanted to buy, suddenly had publishers. calling me and saying, do you ever think. about writing a book? Yeah. I I have one. So I published that book. That caught. the attention of people at a. organization called Interval Research, which was funded by Paul Allen, the the. co-founder of Microsoft. So Paul Allen was interested in doing. what he called uh developing the wired. world. This was uh.

This would have been started in 1990 as. a 10-year project to figure out given. that the internet was going to be a. gigantic thing, what do we do with it? So, this was people that were that were. poached from Apple and from Xerox Park. and the MIT lab and all the lots of. places. They brought 100 people. together. And so, I was invited to do a. psi research program there with a budget. that was 10 times larger than I had at. UNLV and a salary that was three times.

larger. So, I thought, "Yeah, that's the. door that I want.". So, at interval, everything was. proprietary because it was all leading. into patents that would eventually. create things. And so, some of the. things we take for granted now were. developed there. Uh I was there not so much to develop a. psychic technology, but because a small. percentage of the projects were. considered blue sky. This kind of the make sure that. everybody in the lab realized that we're.

trying to push the envelope hard in. developing new things. And so, it's. always useful to have a couple of. speculative projects around. So, I worked on that. And then, uh that the 10 years was over. in 2000. So, this is all in Silicon. Valley. So, a couple of us then left to create a. nonprofit. uh. which which we called the Boundary. Institute, which would continue the. research that we were doing. And then, that lasted for about a year. because there was the dot-com crash and.

we couldn't raise money to keep. ourselves afloat. I was invited then to join the Institute. of Noetic Sciences, where I've been now. for the last 25 years. So, the the the circle here is here I am. in college and looking at this this. place studying the frontiers of. consciousness. and that's where I end up and I've been. there ever since and no new doors have. opened that have attracted me. So, I'm. I'm there and I've been having great fun. at the institute.

>> I interrupted you when we were talking. about numbers being associated with. targets, and you were expanding on. actionable data. Like real Like what. What was the most impressive thing to. you that you saw the people achieve with. remote viewing? >> Do you mean from an operational sense or. or. >> just Just for people listening, like. what would be. the most spectacular example of. something that couldn't be achieved any. other way? >> Well, one of the things was actually.

admitted by President Carter way back. when when they found a. a bomber, a nuclear bomber that that. landed somewhere in Africa, uh which could not be seen from above. because of the canopy of of all the And. And nobody knew where it actually. landed. >> It crashed, right? >> It crashed. There was a a bomb on board that they. did not want anybody else to get. Um. and so they asked one of the remote. viewers. In fact, this One of the They. They asked several of them, but one of. them specialized in location, which is.

very difficult for remote viewing. Like. if you look at a map and you say, "Well, you know, put a dot on the map for where. it is.". That turns out to not be very easy, even. for remote viewers. But this one lady. was very, very good at that. She was a. dowser. In fact, she was a map dowser. So, you get a big piece of blank. >> saying dowser like those people that. walk around with the the stick to find. water? >> Yeah, except map dowser thing is you. have a blank sheet of paper which is. linked by association to an actual map.

somewhere. You don't You know, you don't. want to give anything away, so you don't. use a real map. Use a piece of paper. which is has little X's on it that map. onto an actual map. >> Okay. >> So, we asked this lady, her name was. Fran, uh put a mark on the map of where this. bomber landed. And of course, she. doesn't know it's Africa. She doesn't. know anything. She does her thing, and she puts a mark. on the map, and says, "I I think it's. there.". And so, they go there, and they find it. within a couple of kilometers of that. spot.

>> Woah. >> And so, they they originally go to that. spot, they see natives nearby. So, they. ask the natives, you know, "Was there. anything crashing out of the sky. recently?" Said, "Yeah, something. happened over there. That's where it. was.". >> Now, what did Carter say when he when he. spoke about this publicly? >> Carter was asked a very similar. question, that did did you ever. encounter anything really weird? So, that's the example that he used. >> Didn't Carter have a UFO experience. before? >> He had that as well, yeah.

>> And Carter was the the folklore is that. Carter was briefed. about something having to do with alien. life, and he was so upset that he he. started weeping. >> Yes, I have heard those stories, yes. >> What do you think about those stories? >> It could well be true. Yeah. I mean, so, here there's actually. >> of what he was told? >> Uh, no. I don't know what he was told. If I had a guess, given that he was a. very religious person, it probably was. pushing against his religious beliefs.

>> Yeah. >> That's what I would guess. >> Well, you know, that was the the giant. rumor that was going around recently, that there was going to be some big. disclosure by the White House, and that. a bunch of pastors had been briefed. about this to try to talk to their. flock, and then and to, you know, get ahead of. it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You heard that, right? >> Yeah, that. >> What did you think of that? >> It could well be true. So, I I know Jacques Vallee really well, uh. >> He's a fascinating guy. >> Yeah. And And I know Garry Nolan, and.

and. >> Another fascinating. >> Yeah, I I I. work in circles where we basically all. known each other for a long time. Uh, and the the UFO business, UAP, is. very similar in some respects to the. psychic side. B- both in that there's an enormous. amount of misinformation that has been. pushed by government, by other places to. deflect attention. >> Right. >> And so there there's lots of examples of. that. Which. I mean I.

because of what we know now about the. UFO thing, it's relatively easy to see how that. could have happened for. for the psi business as well. So just. one example, I I go to the Naval War. College and I've given a number of. lectures. and one of them is on telepathy. How do. we know that telepathy actually exists? There's a bunch of different ways of. knowing that. And so afterwards two sub commanders. come up. In fact, that's that's the. story. That's the opening story gambit.

in my book Science and Magic. So the two sub commanders come up and. they say well we have a story to tell. you. These are two independent subs. They're the commanders of two subs. So I'm telling them all everything we. know about telepathy and they say well. one time and we're we're submerged, we're under maneuvers, a crewman wakes up from a dream and tell. goes to the commander and says we need. to surface because something bad has. happened at home. Well, we can't. We're under maneuvers. Next time we can surface, well then you.

can call home. So the next time they surface they call. home and sure enough when the sailor. woke up from his dream, there was indeed. something bad happening at home. So I had So both of the commanders had. the same story. So I said well, does this happen like. every Tuesday? No, there were no false positives. It. happened once and both times it was it. was correct. That's very important to know, not. simply that it happens, but it is happening when the submarines. are at a classified depth,

which means at least 300 m, probably. more below the surface of the ocean. where it's extremely difficult to get. any kind of message there. So it's not electromagnetic. We don't know what that would be. >> What were the events at home that were. bad? >> They didn't tell me the events at home, but it was the same. >> Personal events? Like some in someone's. family or something? >> Something in their family, something was. going wrong. Uh which turned out to be correct. So, So, one thing is, yes, it tells us. something that's important to know from. a scientific perspective because they.

are not reachable by ordinary means. That's the whole point about having a. submarine. Very difficult to know where. they are and get messages to them. The other thing is, the people who are. selected to be submariners are. psychologically extremely stable. They are not prone to flights of. fantasy. They don't have claustrophobia. They They don't have any kind of the. neuroses that you would imagine that. somebody would need to go into a. submarine for months submerged who knows. where. >> Right. >> So, it means that this happens to.

ordinary people. In this case, in an. altered state of awareness, namely in a. dream state, but nevertheless, they got. it. And there were no false positives. So, I was a little. whenever I give a talk to a new type of. group, especially in the military, I was. thinking these guys are they think I'm. nuts because I'm telling them stuff that. shouldn't exist by any conventional. perspective. It's exactly the opposite. I'm mostly have talked to officers, like. uh up to generals and admirals and few.

levels below that. They are all completely on board. And I began to understand why. That not. only are they in in life and death. situations, and that's where these. things tend to bubble up, but also they. had to trust their intuition in making. lots of decisions that affect other. people. And they would not have risen. through the ranks unless they were. really, really good at it. So, that that's why I was not getting. the kind of pushback that I expected to. get.

>> Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is. very interesting, too. You know, Bell. Labs is a. It's also the source of myth and. folklore about the Roswell crash. That they received things from the. Roswell craft and back engineered it. Do you know that whole crazy. >> I I know about those stories. I I don't. know any I don't have any direct. knowledge of any of that stuff. >> Never heard anything when you were. there? There was a company called the American. Computer Company way back in the day and. they just would sell, you know, Windows.

computers. You could. you pick out the hard drive and all this. jazz online. They'd build it for you. >> Yeah. >> And they had a whole page of their. website that was dedicated to uh Bell. Laboratories and Bell Laboratories being. close to a military base. not because the military base is really. to protect New York City. It was really. to protect Bell Labs cuz they were. working all this top secret stuff there. and that they had back engineered some. stuff from the Roswell crash. This is. all like this. >> Maybe. >> It's so fun. Why is that stuff so fun?

>> Yeah, uh maybe. I mean, after all, they. they invented the fiber optics and. lasers and everything in modern the. modern world. >> optics specifically was one of the. things that they discussed as being. something that they discovered. >> Well, there is I mean, if you go to the. to to the ordinary history, you can. figure out why that happened. Not that. it didn't involve reverse engineering. anything. That there's a long history. about why somebody would have gotten to. the point to realize that you can do. certain things with glass.

That would be interesting. >> Mhm. >> Whether the idea came from somewhere. else, that's that I don't know. >> It's just interesting. It's just It's. It's fascinating when you find out that. there are these very limited access. programs that are. beyond top secret that even the. president can't find out about them. >> Yeah. Yeah, and so with one of the. disadvantage of a special access program. is that you could be working next to. somebody and are not allowed to talk. about what they're doing. And that that. was happening a lot. So, a lot of the.

Stargate program is now public. It's. There's like four volumes that that go. through great gory detail on this called. the Stargate archives. Not all of it has been released. So, a lot of the military stuff won't. will never be released because it. involves people and methods and so on. Some of the research side is not. released either. And so I know about that because I was I. was in there. I also just. by virtue of hanging around other. people, you learn things.

that that they talk about. So, we know. about some of those things, too. And I. know when you they're talking to Hal. Puthoff and occasionally would ask him. something and he say, "Well, I can't. talk about that. Well, I can't talk about this.". >> Right. That's a problem. Does that frustrate. you that you can't openly discuss some. of these things? >> Yes. It was especially frustrating when I was. working there because we go into the. building and we're doing all kinds of. interesting psychic things and you go. out of the building and it does not only.

it doesn't exist. And if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say I can't talk about it. because that would mean they know just. you have to go along with the game and. just agree with everybody else that it's. all nonsense. >> Wow. >> So, it's nonsense out there and in here. we're working on it. So, that kind of. >> What a weird psychological dilemma. >> Well, even worse. The whole point about classification is. to keep secrets. We were figuring out ways that you can't. keep secrets.

Right? I mean, the whole thing about. remote viewing and telepathy and all. that stuff. There are no secrets. With the right talented people, nothing. can be shielded. Nothing. Outside, everything is all about. secrets. So, one of the reasons, I. think, that these topics are still have. a stigma attached to them and why. there's disinformation. is because imagine how the society would. work if there were no secrets. >> Do you don't you think that technology. is eventually taking us in that. direction?

>> Yes, but it's not going to be Neuralink. It's It's not going to be brain. computer stuff. It's going to be the. real thing. >> You You So, you think technology will. aid us in achieving the real thing? >> Yes. >> How so? >> Okay. So, one day we're talking to Gary Nolan. Uh Gary says, uh "Have you ever looked. at the genetics of of highly talented. people?" There's a lot of folklore out. there that there people who are psychic. who come from psychic families.

And then there people who don't have. anything psychic and don't have anybody. talking about psychic stuff. That suggests genetics. So, this is a. couple years ago we decided to do an. experiment that we call side genes. We're looking for the psychic gene. More likely a polygenetic trait, but. nevertheless, something about genetics. So, we do an experiment where we recruit. 3,000 people using the internet who say. that they're psychic from psychic. families. And then we do all kinds of.

vetting to make sure that they are who. they say they are and they have some. talent. And we get their DNA. Uh we only had enough money to find out. of the 3,000 people, 13. Cuz we also did. face-to-face interviews to make sure. they weren't nuts. So, we get their DNA. Then we find match. controls and we do standard methods of. comparing the two the two sets of. genomes. And so, we found something that we. didn't expect, which was that the.

psychics were all so-called wild type. They didn't have any unusual things. happening in their their DNA. The controls. had a significant effect in an intron. sequence. So, when you you have you have DNA, it's. billions of base pairs. Only about. 50,000 of them produce proteins. It's. the ex- called the exome. It's a portion. that creates our body. It's It's that. stuff. All of the rest of it used to be called. junk DNA cuz they didn't know what it it. did. It's the intron sequence. It's the.

thing between the genes. That now we know is the epigenetic. portion. It's the portion of the DNA. that turns genes on and off. These controls had a mutation in their. intron sequence. So, they were turning. something off. We still don't know. exactly what it is, but something about. their makeup was turning off psychic. sensitivity. And so, one of the people in our our. project was a specialist in the genetics.

of societies. Different societies have. different genetic makeup. And he found. that to our surprise there, too, that. countries that were exposed to. Christianity, the longer they were. exposed, the more this intron sequence. was there, the mutation. We started. thinking, "Well, how does that make any. sense?" And suddenly we understood. The uh. the Inquisition had systematically. looked for people over hundreds of years.

who had these abilities, and then they. killed them. And so, you. >> Jeez. >> You think about this is a uh a. non-evolutionary. method, but nevertheless a pruning of a. portion of humanity. So, they were. getting rid of people who had this, and. what were left over were people who had. this no psychic stuff at all. So, yeah. So, it's like a uh. a eugenics in an opposite direction. where they weren't trying to pull people. for talent, but get rid of the talent.

And you can see it in the in the genome. >> And this is directly connected the to. the Inquisition? Because so the. Inquisition. this is. What What were they like who were they. targeting specifically? >> They were targeting witches. So, the witches were once I mean an. awful lot of innocent people were caught. up in that as well. >> But people who are known as healers, who. people who had precognition. And of. course the the church at the time was. just concerned that somebody's going to.

come along that's going to attract our. followers away from us. So, magic was okay within the church. Within the bounds of the church if a. priest is anointed in a certain way, they can do magic. The whole ceremony of. the Eucharist is a magical practice. It's okay. Outside of the church it was not okay. And so it was a very heavy-handed way of. ensuring that the power would remain in. the church. >> So, by enforcing their Christian. ideology, they eliminated anybody that.

had any alternative powers or. visions or anything weird any other kind. of practices. >> Yeah. And so the the case of the. Catholic saints is very interesting. Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to. have levitated. And also to do. bilocation. Very psychic things. He was very he was lucky in a sense that. he was already a priest. Uh lots of.

people thousands of people saw him. levitate. And he made basically a deal was made. with the Inquisition that you now need. to go to this place out in the middle of. nowhere and don't show this anymore to. anybody. Because we don't. >> you say he could levitate like how high? >> There are stories of him levitating 30. ft. >> Sometimes drifting into the rafters of. churches in front of astonished crowds. and even Pope Urban the the eighth. >> Yeah. >> You could read more about it in his. extraordinary life through Franciscan. Media.

Huh. >> Yeah, Saint Teresa life. >> The patron saint go back please. The. often called the patron saint of air. travelers. >> Yeah, why not? Right, we're all levitating. >> Well, that is the most famous levitator. in Catholic history. So there's other. levitators? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a book called. >> How come nobody can do that now? >> Uh, there are stories that people can do. it now, but so far in the laboratory we. haven't able to see this. >> Hmm. >> There's a book called. >> Stop, stop, please. Go back.

Um, [clears throat] this one, Saint. Teresa of Avila. >> Yeah. >> Uh, Spanish mystic who famously recorded. that her levitations occurred. unexpectedly during states of deep. spiritual rapture. She described the. sensation as a violent force lifting her. up from beneath her feet and was so. embarrassed by it that she instructed. fellow nuns to physically hold her down. Whoa. >> dozens of them. >> Assisi. But it's like. do it now. Why do you think people don't do it now.

and film it on their iPhone? >> Well, so the TM organization had a city. program, the city yogic powers. >> Like levitation. >> And and they had this whole thing for a. long time about yogic flyers. So one time I went to the university. where they were going to show the four. best yogic flyers. They were all excited. about that. We had a few other people. And so there were four young men who go. in full lotus position. and then hop. >> I've seen that. >> Yeah. So so we are like, you know, right. next to them seeing hopping and the.

hopping's pretty good because you're in. a full lotus position and you hop around. two and a half feet. >> It's plyometrics, though. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was hopping. So I said I asked them, "Well, why why aren't anybody flying Why. why is the flying not happening?" They. didn't go. >> Right, but. you know. >> So that's it takes You have to be pretty. strong to do that. >> Yeah, but that's all that is. >> Yeah. >> I know guys who can do that. >> So the Maharishi was asked "Why why. don't why isn't anybody flying?" And his. response was there's too many people who. think it's impossible. So it's it becomes like a sociological.

thing. So is that true? I don't know. >> Do you think it's people are more. close-minded to the ideas that anything. outside the norm? Anything like that, levitation, is. nonsense. So, it's like it's permeated. our our zeitgeist. >> Yes. It It also I believe that it can. act as a block for other people. So, what what is So, you haven't asked. yet, why is a scientist who worked at. Princeton and Bell Labs and what Why am. I writing about magic? It's because of a.

couple of experiences that told me that. our understanding of psychic effects now. is like in a box. We We generally do. experiments. We get relatively small. effects. They're not gigantic effects. They're not levitation. Well, maybe it's the same thing. Somebody can. make a random number generator do. something. It You need statistics to see it. They're really small, but we don't know. the limits. So, I've had a few experiences. that told me I really don't know what.

the limits are. And so, that that brings up this. So, bending a bowl of a spoon without. force, which I did. And so, I I brought you a spoon. This is. the same spoon from the It's from 1961. It's this particular. So, I set up this. I I went to a. uh spoke called spoon bending party. because. >> You bent that spoon with your brain? Or your mind? >> Well, with. >> Or your consciousness or whatever it is? Something.

>> did something, but I'll show you in a. minute how we did this. So, I The reason. I did this cuz I was at Interval and at. the time Russ Targ was working for me. and at May too. And Russ came back from one of these. parties and he said he had bent a a. rebar, 1/2 in rebar. Which that I mean, some muscle men can. do that, but. you have to be pretty strong to bend a. rebar and have it stay there. So, I was thinking that is ridiculous. I. didn't say that, but I was thinking.

that's impossible. And the same thing about this. If you. bend the neck of a spoon, which is what. typically people do, a person can do that just and it's gone. So fast that you you can't see it. And. then you hide it and you reveal it and. it looks like you bent it. So, I went to one of these parties. and I heard that there was a woman there. who was able to bend the bowl of the. spoon just by touching it. Not by. itself, but sort of touching it and. moving it over. And I said, "I want to. see that because it's ridiculous.".

So, I'm standing in front of this woman. and she's holding it like this. She has. a a thumb there and a finger here. >> Mhm. >> And and so, she's waiting for her to do. it and I'm mimicking her because I. wanted I want to see how she's doing it. You know, is it a trick? So, we're doing that and nothing is. happening and then somebody says, "Look. what you did." And I'm looking, "Well, somebody did something?" No, Dean, look. what you did. I'd bent it 90°. And I immediately look at my fingers. Did I do this by force? No, no.

indication, no indentation or anything. And so, the person said, "Bend it all. the way." So, it was halfway and I I. literally went. and went all the way. So, so now I have this spoon and I'm sort of. mind-boggled by it cuz I know it wasn't. force. I'm not strong enough to be able. to do that. Very few people would be. able to do it. So, I have another spoon just like it. and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm. like trying to do it with this spoon and. I suddenly get a huge shock of fear.

because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000 ft. up and I don't know how I did it and I. don't want the wings to suddenly go. shoo. Because I'm. >> Right. >> I still don't know exactly how, but I. know the metallurgy now. So, it turns. out that if you're holding it like that. and you can do between 50 and 70 lb of. force suddenly, like a like an impulse, you will cause the the lattice. that that forms the grain boundary to.

momentarily soften. And then for about 20 seconds, it will. be really, really soft. And that that's. And And at that point, you can literally. just take a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did, and squish it over. Instantly tightens up again. >> But there's no explanation for what. caused the initial force. >> No, because I I was holding it like. this. And I I I can't do it. >> that now? >> No. I don't I don't know how I did it. I. do know, however, >> that the actual spoon that you did it. with? >> Yeah, this this is the spoon. >> it?

This is a regular spoon. >> Yeah. >> It's Yeah. >> I want to show you this. >> to bend. >> I want to show you this other. part here. This is the motivation. So, I was told. But more importantly than that, is to. take the full spoon that you have. Because this this this is what I was. working on. >> one was already weakened, right? >> No. >> No, but but I mean now it is. >> No. That that is the way it is. It's a. little spongy.

>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like that, I just did that. >> Yeah. You're applying. >> Straightened it out. >> Yeah. And you have to apply a lot of force to. do it. >> A lot. Yeah, I got to really strain. >> Yeah. >> And I have fat thumbs. But once it's like that, I could kind of. do that pretty easy. >> Yeah. Well, now of course, you you. smoothed it out. So, now try to do it. without it being in that position. >> With just one finger? >> No. No. Just like like this. Hold Hold. it like that. Hold th- thumb underneath,

finger on top. Yeah, and and bend it. down. >> No, it's the neck. It's not bending the. neck. Yeah. >> The shell shape resists bending. >> It's very hard to bend. >> Yeah. And more importantly, don't hurt. your fingers on this. >> Yeah, [clears throat] I can't do it. Well, I I might be able to do it if it. was more stable, but it's very hard to. do. It's not something that's easy at. all. >> with leverage, certainly you can do it. But there there was there was no. >> clamp, maybe I could do it. >> Oh, yeah. >> But I mean, I would want to use both. hands. I'd want to like get in there. >> Yeah. Yeah. But that's. >> No. >> That's not what happens.

>> it with a finger, that's very hard to. do. And you don't know how he did it. >> Well, so I was in a very weird state of. motivation. Cuz we were told that if you. could do that without force. that you would get this button. >> [laughter]. >> Certified warm former? >> Yeah. So so this is called warm warm. formering because you're forming this as. though it became warm. Cuz it feels it. like it feels like putty when it. actually warms. >> That's what I had heard that people do. with like the necks of them.

>> Oh, yeah. No, the neck I wasn't. interested in the neck. >> I've seen a guy do that and he told me. it was a trick. He goes, "I'm not going. to tell you how I do it, but I'm not. using magic. It's. >> You could just do it. >> And he said he was like doing something. like rubbing it with his fingers and it. would like it was a specific type of. spoon or something like. >> But even with this spoon, I mean, you're. certainly strong enough to be able to. push it over. >> Yeah. >> At at the neck. The shell shape is very. difficult to. >> Yeah, I can't I can't do it. >> So, I was told if if I. >> But look, [clears throat] I had to use.

both hands. >> Yeah. And you you apply leverage and. you're going to feel it tomorrow in your. fingers, too. >> Nah, I'll be all right. But yeah. This is um. that's very hard to do. >> So, if you could do it, you get a. button. So, the next day I was giving a talk to. this conference. This was held at a. conference. And I imagined myself with. my suit on with the button. And it it was like some kind of weird. ego thing where I felt I needed to. demonstrate to the people in the. audience that I can do this stuff. And it and it was so strange because I I.

I'm not very egotistical and and I'm not. self-aggrandizing, either. But there was. something about getting this stupid. button. that put me in a position where I felt. if I don't do this, the universe will. end. I mean, that kind of level of. obsessiveness. I I needed the button. >> For no reason? >> Well, I Well, because I needed the. button. >> I know, but that's kind of crazy. >> I But I had to go I don't know how to. explain it. >> something you would be interested in, knowing you for the brief amount of time. that I've known you. >> Nevertheless, that is the case That is.

the the strange state I was in. And it's. it's relevant to the idea of of how. traditional magic is supposed to work. There's a number of factors involved. There's belief and motivation is very. important, imagination, and a bunch of. other things. So, it's very difficult in. an experiment to create that level of. motivation. This is not something I want. This is. something I need. I need this to happen. So, well, so I got the button. And the.

moment I I did that, and he gave me the. button, it all vanished. The whole thing. about the need was suddenly and. everything in the universe was okay. again. So, that's when you you know, you look. into how magic works, you build up this. sense. And there's two ways of doing it. One is. very long-term meditation, where you can. gain certain skills. And the other one, I call screaming at fire. So, that's the image that that evokes. You're screaming at fire. It's that kind.

of motivation, which allows things to. unfold that otherwise wouldn't happen. >> Mhm. So, this state, have you ever tried to. achieve this state again under any other. circumstances? >> Well, yeah, in the airplane. And now I. don't do that in the airplane, because. [laughter] I I don't know how I did it. in the first place. And yeah. >> Uh I have tried several times since with. a quarter-inch aluminum bar, that is the. same kind of bar used in aircraft. It's. very strong, very stiff. And you you start with it flat, and it.

doesn't rock at all. And so, I was able. to make it go so that it rocks a little. bit. So, it moved it a probably a. fraction of a millimeter. >> Mhm. >> And using the same kind of thing, but. without that crazy motivation because I. didn't have a button. >> Did you film yourself ever doing this? >> No. >> No. Has anybody ever filmed themselves doing. something like this? >> There are some films of people doing. this. Generally, what you see is it. breaking. Like a spoon a spoon will. break here and it'll go bleep. But again, there there was a lot of.

research on this in the 1970s by. metallurgists and physicists. Some came became convinced that it's. real. And some came convinced that it wasn't. real. >> So there's some kind of energy, some. unknown energy that you're transmitting. to that spoon. >> I think what what's happening is very. similar to what's going on with these. micro PK events, micro psychokinetic. events. That you're changing. probabilistic structure at a very deep. level, at the atomic level.

And that that would actually do it here. If you're able to to target a like a. strip across here, you can momentarily cause the the grains. to shift. >> And the fact that you didn't know you. did it. >> I didn't know how I did it. I just know. what I wanted to happen. >> But did you recognize it was happening. while it was happening? >> No. No, I was too freaked out. >> what I'm saying. That's like so the. state of mind was so peculiar. >> Yeah. >> That you were doing it without even. focusing on the fact that you were doing.

it. >> I'm pretty sure if I was being. analytical at the time, it would not. have happened. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> That's what's so weird about the whole. idea of intuition is that if you try it, if you like you really think about it. too much, then you get. by your own perceptions in some. way. Like you you skew the thing. You start. defining it and you can't see it. anymore. >> It's uh in a in a very general sense, it's right versus left brain.

Our left brains are analytical. It's. It's what allows us to do this sort of. communication. Uh it is maintaining stability about the. way that we think the world works. The. right brain isn't interested in that. stuff at all. It's about form and function. That's. where remote viewing and most psychic. stuff takes place. And it's not simple as left and right. brain. It's but it's generally a general. idea. So, the second level of our PsyGenes. test So, this was they're both published. now. So, the second one uh.

we need thousands of cases and controls. in order to do this right. Like if. you're if you're studying schizophrenia, what's the genetic basis? Use tens of. thousands of cases and they do they know. the genes now as a result. We would we don't have money to do that. So, we've got uh data from 23andMe. and from uh Ancestry and those kinds of. places that give you your exome. So, it's not the full genome, it's a portion. of it. And we had people fill out a.

questionnaire of what kind of. experiences you had. And then we're able to do an analysis. Is there a correlation between the two? And the answer is yes. We found 212. SNPs. These are single nucleat- nucleotide. polymorphisms. So, it's a piece of of. the genome. 212 correlated with these psychic. experiences. One of which correlated. with a probability of a million to one. So, it that one's probably a real thing. So, what is that SNP associated with?

You go into the atlas and you can say, "Well, what portion of the body is that. involved in?" And it's involved with a. whole bunch of different things. happening in the brain. So, we So, anybody who's listening who. has $10 million to spare and [laughter]. and wants us to figure out what is the. rest of the story, we can we can do that. cuz we have the technology now. >> Elon, you got some cash. Throw it at. this thing. Um so do you. when you think of consciousness, do you. think that we as individual biological.

entities are interacting with. consciousness and with different levels. of. achieving like certain aspects of. consciousness. Some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training. But that we're just. these individual biological entities. that are tapping in to whatever. consciousness is. >> Uh yes and no. But you see the. the uh.

the subtitle how the mind weaves the. fabric of reality. So I'm I'm viewing. this as consciousness. and the physical world are like a. tapestry. They're both necessary for our. understanding of reality and they're. weave together. They're both part of it. You can't have just a physical world. Maybe you can't just have a. consciousness world either. They're they're working together. So we. are that. Our physical body, our. consciousness are woven together into. the form that we currently take. So that is essentially a philosophy.

called dual aspect monism. It says there are two there's. one world of which we don't know what. that is, but two things split out of it. Mind and matter. But they've come out of something that. is uniform. It's one thing. So Carl So Carl Jung called it the Unus. Mundus, the one world out of which thing. split. Well, why does it split? His idea was that it splits because of. meaning. So meaning is what caused this mind.

matter split. And because they come out. of the same place, they're tightly. correlated. Like two sides of the same. coin. >> But meaning being very subjective, right? Like what is when you say meaning? >> Yeah, that's a good question because. Young did not clearly define what he. meant by meaning. We We sort of know what that means, what. meaning means. But it's in that theory at least or the. philosophy, it's not clearly defined. >> So when you get down to this one thing. that these two things branch out, what. is the one thing?

>> It's the one thing that that everything. comes from. And and also, mind and matter are two. aspects that split, but there's an. infinite number of other aspects that. can split out of this one thing. So, maybe it splits into other worlds, it splits into other universes, it. splits we don't know how. Splits into. aliens, we don't know. >> That's a lot of we don't know. >> Yeah, but it comes down to comes down. anywhere in science. we don't know. The leading edge we do.

not know, and it's largely because. science doesn't answer why. We don't know why. Why does an electron. have a certain charge on it? We don't. know. It That's the way it is. Science. observes stuff and then tries to make. theories to explain it, and sometimes. we're really good and we can make stuff. out of it, but when it comes down to. brass tacks, most of the answers are we. really don't know. >> And it gets down to the base of the. observable universe, you get to like. quantum mechanics and quantum theory and. particles being connected.

Spooky action at a distance. You get You. get to the the weird stuff about quantum. the quantum world. And you know, particles being in superposition, moving. and still at the same time, being. connected over vast distances. Like, what? That's magic. Like, whatever. the hell that is, that doesn't seem to. follow any of the rules of reality that. we like average people existed. >> Yeah, but our average experience is. provincial. It's It's human-centric at human.

timescales. >> Yes. >> And so, imagine a few thousand years ago you. look up at and the dark sky and see a. bunch of stars, and a couple of them. look kind of fuzzy. Well, you didn't know they were. galaxies. Well, you take the the James Webb. telescope now, and you the estimate is. at least 3,000 galaxies in the. observable universe. So imagine how your. cosmology changes between those two. In. one case you're the center of the. universe and there's some smudgy stars,

a few of them, five of them about. Now. we know we are in the middle of nowhere. in some gigantic universe. with basically no understanding of the. rest of it. Cosmology is changing day by. day. So I gave a talk on this recently about. how every time a new instrument extends. our senses whole new realms of reality. open up that weren't even imagined. before. So. the the reason why I'm I'm continuing to. be so interested in what is the nature.

of consciousness, what is the frontier. is because without consciousness we. wouldn't know anything. Quite literally, we wouldn't be aware of anything. So in. some respects we are creating all of. this. And so something seems weird. because we we don't have the senses yet. to be able to actually experience it. directly. >> God, it's such a fascinating subject and. the the the concept of consciousness. interacting with things. >> Less than it yes interacting but more so.

that it is everything is built of it. It's like it's part of it. So if you're if you're. It is it in a sense. Yeah, if if you go all the way to. full-blown idealism which is the. philosophy that everything is. consciousness. Everything, the physical. world emerges out of consciousness. That's idealism. It turns out that almost all of the. founders of quantum mechanics were. idealists.

Which is pretty odd when you think about. it. The most successful physical theory. developed so far were people who are. idealists who felt that everything. ultimately was consciousness. Not only that, most of them were also. mystics. They read very extensively in. Eastern philosophy. They knew about. mysticism. They were deeply into it and. that still is true for leading. physicists today. >> Do you think there's ancient truths in. all that.

all the mystic traditions and all these. different things that have existed in. religious texts and. >> There there is truth there that has been. distorted by history and language. Yes. And it doesn't help that. uh with the. not done not going to pick on the. Catholic church but but religion in. general has said, "Of course there's. magic. Like everything is magic, supernatural, fill in the blank. Uh. but don't pay too much attention to it.". Which is which is kind of strange.

especially in the spiritual traditions. So I had an opportunity to talk to a. famous guru called Sadhguru. >> How long were you there? >> Okay. So I I asked Sadhguru uh. "I'm a scientist and I'm studying. psychic phenomena but within the yoga. tradition and virtually every other. spiritual tradition you're told not to. do that. Don't pay attention to these. psychic things. They're a deflection.". So I said, "Well, am I wasting my time. as a scientist? I mean, what what do I. do then? And also, why do these.

spiritual traditions say that?". And his answer was. uh "Imagine you're riding in a car and. you've never ridden in a car before and. you like the feeling of the air as it's. going against your arm. Well, you it. might rip your arm off if you go near a. tree.". So the underlying story is you're. dealing with something which is so. powerful you don't know what you're. doing. And it's too powerful. So don't do it. To which I was saying I thinking well. you're saying I shouldn't be doing this. but that only makes me want to do it.

more. >> [laughter]. >> because like I we need to figure out. what this stuff is, right? >> Right. The idea that you should just. ignore it is ridiculous. >> But that's what the spiritual traditions. do. They say ignore it. >> Is that so they can maintain control? >> Well. >> So they can be the purveyors of. knowledge and no one goes outside of. that realm and questions the ideology. >> Some of it is that. Yes. It certainly. within Catholicism Christianity in. general. Yes, don't do don't do that. It's written into the catechism.

Like don't don't do this magic stuff. Because it's demonic. I mean that's kind. of beaten in into your head for a long. time. >> Where did that come from? Why demonic? >> Because. >> potential for going wrong? >> Because it's not within the bounds of. the church. >> That's it. >> Yep. Everything else is demonic and it will. get you. And by the way, there's still a lot of. people in our own government and in the. military who believe that and that is. one of the reasons why UFOs has been. deflected. >> Oh, J.D. Vance said he thinks they're. demons. >> Yeah. >> [laughter].

>> Yeah, I mean so. >> I can't wait to ask him about that. again. >> The same is true for for psychic stuff. and UFOs, right? This is demonic. People. like we shouldn't be doing this. >> Yeah. >> So within spiritual traditions, the other reason given is that the power. is seductive. And people are too weak. And so if you. gain this power by one means or the. other, you're going to use it badly. And and that probably is true. That's. why at least within the yogic tradition, if you're going through through the path.

where you are eventually going to gain. the cities, you spend probably the first three to. five years not doing that. You learn how. to get your ego in check. And so that that turns out to be an. extremely important aspect of the yogic. training. And the yoga by the way has very little. or nothing to do with with the whole. stretching and the maneuvers, all of. that. All of the. things that we think of as yoga in the. west are designed to to get you strong. enough so you can sit in a in a lotus. position for 8 hours.

Because that's where the action starts. in meditation. It's not the physical side. >> It is a a reality of the human condition. that if you give people that kind of. power and that kind of influence over. others, a a large percentage will abuse it. >> Yeah. >> Or at least use it to their own for. their own personal gain to control. people and. >> So. >> and then set themselves up as being. god-like or. >> So here's what I I told Sadhguru. So one.

of the projects, because of our interest. in this side genes thing, uh it's going to be a very complicated. series of genes and probably intron. sequence and so on. But nevertheless, we. have the tools, we can do it if we had. enough money. Uh setting aside issue about ethics, about whether or not it's a good thing. to do, 7 years ago, couple of colleagues and I. formed a company called Cognigenics. to see if we could use genetic. engineering methods to do something like.

that. Could we significantly enhance. perception and cognition and memory and. all of that stuff, so that you don't. need to be a monk going into a cave for. 30 years, but you can take a genetic. edit and kind of get there quickly. So again, setting aside for a moment the. ethics and the power seduction and all. that, is it possible? And we now think it's possible. Because we've developed an intranasal. delivery method for RNA interference. You shove it up the nose, you snort it. up the nose, it gets into the brain and.

it downregulates certain receptors. >> Is it a one-time treatment? >> It's a multi-time treatment because it's. RNA. So our RNA will last for a while. and then months later you'd have to. re-up it. You can do it as a one-time. >> So you could literally blast something. up your nose. and it'll affect your ability to do this. stuff. >> In principle, for psychic things. But. but we see that that's far in the. future. What we're doing now as a. company is addressing dementia.

So we're looking for ways of how do you. how do you fix memory loss, especially. short-term memory loss? It is related to certain receptors. Turns out to be the same receptors as in. psilocybin, 5-HT2A. We can down-regulate them. >> You saw that study where that where that. article recently about a woman who was. she I believe she had dementia, but she. couldn't speak anymore. She took 5 g of. psilocybin mushrooms and all of a sudden. she could talk. >> Yeah.

So, this this is doing that without the. hallucinations. And. much, much longer. Psilocybin will get in and out of your. body pretty quickly. The RNA. interference will take will will come up. and then stay for about a we think a. couple of months. and then slowly begin to to decline. And. so, you you would need to take this this. treatment a. this. intranasal treatment probably every 2 or. 3 months. And we don't know about the dosing yet. We've done studies with mice and rats.

and now with monkeys. So, we know it. works in a primate brain. The next couple of steps. >> When they do the studies with monkeys, what happens? >> Well, there there two things that you. look at. Well, first of all, you want to. make sure that actually gets into the. brain. So, you do a radioactive tag on the. compound itself and then use a PET scan, which is a positron emission tomography, and you can then see does it actually. get out of the nose and go into the. brain? The answer is yes. We can track. where in the brain it's going. We mainly.

want to think it to get down to the. limbic system. because that's that's where the. hippocampus is and where memory is. encoded. And we know from our studies with mice. and rats, you get 100% improvement in. memory. in mice and rats that are either aged or. normal. A normal mouse will get 100% improvement. in memory. Exactly at the same time, they'll get a almost 100% reduction in. anxiety. So if you think about a treatment for.

dementia, dementia patients get very. anxious. So you want to calm them down and. improve their memory. This does both in. one shot. >> Wow. >> Yep. >> And what does it do to regular people? With no no ailments. >> We don't know yet. >> No one's tried? >> Well, that we don't have permission from. the FDA to do clinical trials yet. >> Wink wink. >> Uh. if you ask the people if you ask them. >> Someone must have done it. >> No, [clears throat] we haven't tried it. yet. >> Not not a single person has said shoot.

it up my nose? >> That would admit it. No. >> Oh, that would admit it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh. >> That's my point. >> Yeah. So it actually has pretty much the. same effect as a psilocybin. But it is only doing this one receptor. because when you take psilocybin, there's all kinds of things going on, which is one of the reasons you get. hallucinogenics. Uh so we wanted to do this for people. who probably wouldn't take a. hallucinogen. Uh it probably come on faster and it. would last a lot longer. And for some cases, like if somebody was.

terminal and they're losing their. memory, you can make this a permanent. edit as well. >> I wonder what would happen if you. combined the two. >> What which two? >> The RNA and psilocybin. >> Uh well, we once we get this approved, we'll have you do it and see what. happens. >> Yeah, let's find out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. >> I'll come back and quit the podcast. immediately. Like I've got things to do. >> Yeah. No, if this would only last for a. while. I mean, we're specifically making.

it temporary because if somebody had a. bad trip on it essentially, >> Right. >> it'll it'll eventually go away and so. it's not a big deal. >> But if you continue to do it like. brushing your teeth, >> Yeah. Well, so one one of our concerns is that. because this is going to improve memory, if you if a normal person who doesn't. have dementia, would it be something. that that kids are going to try to just. snort all the time to like Ritalin. >> Uh that would not be good. So this would. almost. >> Or would it be awesome? >> Let's put it this way. It probably will.

not ever be OTC. It's not going to You're not going to be. able to buy this uh at the drugstore. >> It's going to be hap- you'll have to be. prescribed. >> to be prescribed. >> a dirty doctor in Tijuana. >> [laughter]. >> You also you you will need uh. you need a a special kind of delivery. system. So when you think of a nose. spray, it's atomizing the stuff. It gets. down into the lower nose. In order to. get it into the brain, you need to shoot. a stream all the way up to the back It's.

like the cleft right up here. And just beyond that is a bone that. separates it from the brain. Our compound gets through that bone. >> Woah. >> So and it has to all to do with how how. big is the is the compound. >> Right. >> So it's similar to like if you snort. cocaine, it'll get in there. It gets in. your brain because it's a certain size. >> But you can imagine if this just becomes. a performance-enhancing substance that. normal people take, you know? >> That could very likely happen. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So I mean we're we're being very.

careful at this point. We have people on. board who are ethicists to say because. we're talking about enhancing human. performance and human cognition and. perception. Can we enhance it all the. way out into extrasensory perception, ESP, meaning psychic stuff? We don't know, but as I said, once we. find what the polygenetic trait is, >> It's the story of the lady who did the. mushrooms. >> Yeah. So case study published in. Frontiers in Neuroscience, researchers. focused on an 80-year-old.

Japanese-American woman with. Alzheimer's. Her condition had declined. over the last decade was reduced to. urinary incontinence, speaking in single. syllables, and dependence on caregivers. for mobility and support. She was then given a 5-gram dose of. magic mushrooms. During the initial. phase, she was agitated, sweated. profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep. state that suggested unconsciousness. But around hour 19, she began speaking. in full sentences, recalling life events. she had been unable to articulate for. years. In the days and weeks that.

followed, more incredible changes. emerged. She regained urinary continents. even in the evenings and began dressing. herself. She was able to make and. maintain eye contact, remember social. interactions, emotionally respond to. others, and hold lucid conversations. >> Right? >> And that's one dose. >> Yeah. So, what is what happens when you. take this when you take psilocybin? The first effect is that it is a 5-HT2A. agonist. It means it's souped up that particular. receptor. But the brain notices that and.

then it downregulates. >> You see what it says here? Subsequent. 3-g dose of psilocybin was given to the. patient and was followed by increased. verbal expression, humor, and greater. walking agility. >> Yep. >> Miraculously miraculous as the mushrooms. may seem, the study authors note that. the patient's improvements were. temporary and psilocybin did not reverse. the disease as her neurodegeneration. remain remained. They did not specifically They did not. specify exactly how long the. improvements lasted. However, the.

researchers the research does. demonstrate that some function believed. to be irrevocably lost to late-stage. dementia may not be gone but merely. inaccessible and that a mushroom trip. has the potential to recover it, albeit. briefly. But it sounds like this would. be even better at that. >> Well, this has the hallucinatory. part in the beginning. The reason why that we think this works. and the reason why we're doing a. downregulation of 5-HT2A. is because when you take psilocybin, it. it soups it up. It's an agonist. It.

makes makes it more expressed. That's. when all the hallucinations and stuff. happens. Then the brain compensates. and it starts pushing it back down. So, it starts suppressing 5-HT2A. We're doing that directly. So, we would guess then that if the. reason why this happened is because of. the the reduction of hyperactivity, which is what we've been involved with. neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately. So, you don't you don't need that initial. push. That you you're starting right. from the get-go with the reduction in.

this 5-HT2A. >> God, that would be a phenomenal. game-changer for people that are. suffering from this. >> Yes. And also, the same platform that we. use to deliver this particular. uh compound can be used with lots of. other compounds. So, the more that. psychiatry learns about. neurodegeneration and about memory loss. and all that, we can just change the. compound and change the receptors. So, yeah, we can do it now. >> Wow. >> Yeah, so this this now links back into.

the Institute of Noetic Sciences. Sci-Genes project, which launched this. thing. So, we're launching in a very. pragmatic way which could help a lot of. people, keeping in mind that that we we can go. into a place where we're beginning to. enhance people. Uh. that's going to take a while to to get. there. And again, we we think carefully. about is this a good thing or not. >> Why would it of course Why would it be a. bad thing? >> I think it's a good thing. >> What would be the bad part of it when.

you, you know, try to look at it in worst-case. scenario? >> What what I have in mind is every time a. new technology came along, people think. this is the best thing ever. Like I met the guy who developed trans. fats, who thought he was going to help a lot. of people because then they wouldn't, you know, fat wouldn't be so bad. Turned. out to be really bad. >> Yeah. >> And so, unintended consequences when. when we're developing new things. >> Are there side effects. that have been observed? >> Uh not yet. It's partially because when you do.

preclinical work, there's only so many. things you can infer about what a mouse. or a rat is doing. Now that we're doing. monkeys, we do know that there were two. monkeys in our test that were very. aggressive. They You get clear near. them, they'd bare their teeth. They. don't want you to deal with them. They. took the compound, and then they were. chill. For 2 days afterwards, having the having. a single dose, those two monkeys were no longer. aggressive. So, that's the anxiolytic. effect. >> We could fix society.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it's a nasal spray. >> You imagine that? Just give it to everybody and everyone. just gets along. >> Well, I mean, that you probably need. permission. >> Right, but I mean, if you just like told. people that this is available and we we. don't no longer have to be in conflict. with each other. >> That would be nice. >> And we might be able to connect with. each other on some new realm. >> That would be very nice. Yes. >> Yeah. >> And so, some. >> sounds like the the plusses way way. outweigh what potential negatives could.

be. >> We would need to need to figure out. first what the unintended consequences. are. >> I like how you think, like a real. scientist. >> Yes. The the brain. >> I'm thinking like a person's like, "Let's go. Give me a shot.". >> always compensates. >> Of course. >> Uh for any kind of drug, it compensates. immediately. >> free lunch. >> No. So, it's something would happen, and. maybe good, and maybe bad. We don't know. yet. >> Right, particularly for people that. don't have a problem. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. We're we're targeting people who. do have a problem, and so far there's no. treatment for it. I mean, there's.

there's a couple of things that are. mostly stimulus stimulators, and and and. they don't work that well. My dad died. of dementia. I saw that happen. >> Mhm. >> So, I'm thinking if I can prevent that. in anybody else, just to just to get. short-term memory back, because he My. dad had five degrees, including a law. degree, made his living as a graphic. artist. So, he was very intellectual, but had a very pragmatic kind of job. By. the time he had advanced dementia, he. could no longer watch TV.

And so, well, well, why not?" He. couldn't track what was happening in a. show. >> Oh. >> He couldn't listen to audiobooks. I. mean, it. That's not good. >> thing for someone who just relies on. their mind. >> Yeah. So, I rely on my mind. >> Yeah. >> I don't if. I would take this stuff in a second. >> you would. >> if if this something like that started. to happen. So, yeah, I'm I'm thinking. ahead. >> Yeah. >> Uh. So, if we have time, I would I'd like to. explain one other.

um experience that I had, which led me. into thinking more about magic. >> Can I ask you one more question about. this? >> Sure. >> If you developed some sort of a compound. that. gave. real. psychic ability. Like some something. that was just undeniable. You you could. literally communicate with people. And you found out that this is something. that you could.

give people as a supplement or some sort. of a medication. >> Mhm. >> What what would you do with that. information? Would you pause? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I would pause for the same reason. that Sadhguru said this is not a good. idea. Because like I I told him we were doing. this this research on telepathy, we. might be able to make people super. telepathic. He said, "That would be a. bad idea.". >> Why? >> Because we are we normally think of. being telepathic as as receiving other.

people's thoughts. But it's actually a. two-way street. You could then inject. thoughts. >> Right. >> And control people. >> Yeah. >> And he said that that would be that is. would be such a seductive power for most. people that unless they were had. significant training beforehand, you don't want to do that. >> Significant training like you were. talking about the monks. >> You go out of the way Yeah, go through a. meditation. And one of the things one of the reasons. why I'm interested in in the noetic.

sciences in general is that when. somebody has an experience whether it's. psilocybin or some other method, often times there's a personality. transformation. The personality transformation is like. the positive side of PTSD. Like their. mind is blown. They become prosocial, which is the. fancy term meaning they suddenly become. compassionate. They become more. interested in service. They want to help. help others. They could have been a complete jerk. beforehand. >> Right. >> Something changes and it changes in a.

flash. And it sticks. Well, we probably ought to understand. why that happens. What is it about. simply getting in like a larger picture. of who and what we are and what the. nature of the universe is, that becomes. really really important to understand. So, we know it happens. We don't know. why it happens. >> Well, that's one of the most fascinating. aspects of the psychedelic experience is. the ego death. Right. >> Yeah. And so and but it. >> So, it's also like you you would have to. have the two of them together.

If you had ego death induced by. psychedelics along with. some sort of supplemental education that. allowed you to achieve like legitimate. psychic ability. >> Yeah, I see you you really want to do. this. >> I'm fascinated by it. I would be weird I. I would be weirded out by it for sure. I. I mean, I don't know how I would. function. if I was the only one who had it. I I. don't think that would be a fun place to. be. >> You would have to be prepared. >> Yeah, I think it would be a real.

struggle. >> Yeah, I mean, let think about in the old. days when there were mystery schools. like in ancient Greece and elsewhere. So, everybody would get the drug. They. they'd have this opening. >> Right. >> Uh some people would be opened and more. more or less stay open. But there was that drug experience that. that did an ego change. And so they so. may you may be right that you need to. have some kind of a a noetic whatever in. order to push the ego down far enough to. realize that we are all interconnected.

>> Right. >> one thing. And so. >> Well, I think that idea has to get out. there more. And I think it is more now than ever. before. It's It's more of a a common. discussion that we're all connected. Uh. I feel like over the last few decades. that's. much more acceptable to discuss this. concept of us being all connected. without being dismissed as being a cook. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So this which is part of the whole.

thing of like if you don't believe it, if you're completely skeptical, you're. blocking it. Right? And then we have to. kind of understand that there's real. evidence that we are all connected. And. this biological. being that we live in that is, you know, millions and millions of years of. evolution have led us to this position. and. over the last, you know, 20,000 years. it's filled with barbaric acts and. tribalism. Like all this stuff is. encoded in us. And we have to figure out.

how to squash that and how to move past. it and move into whatever the next stage. of the human experience is. >> Yeah, we had better do that. >> better It better involve ego death. It. It has It can't just be the psychic. ability cuz then you're just going to. have manipulative psychopaths that have. the ability that other people don't. And. of course all these crazy people that. want to control the world and they're. the one going to be the ones that first. have access to it. >> Yeah, and that I think it's not exactly.

ego death. It's not It's not a complete. Right, you still need some ego because. we're embodied systems. We need to. operate in the world. It's It's more like a recognition of. Like you teach a kid uh you're really, really angry. That doesn't mean you need. to act on it. >> Right. >> You recognize it. And like mindful meditation. You're. learning that you Yeah, you can control. >> Control of the ego is a better term. >> Recognition of it and control, yeah. >> And understanding of it. Having like. legitimate methods that you use to keep. it in check. >> Right. >> Yeah. And but it's also like.

in. sort of encoding in people the. discipline to be able to do that. To to. cuz that's also involved in controlling. the ego. >> Right. >> But having that and where it seems like. we're. if all these things come to pass and. this this. technology emerges and this research. continues to bear fruit, you're you're. looking at the potential for a. completely different way of human beings. interacting with each other. Right. Completely different paradigm. Like.

society moves into a totally different. realm. >> Right. Not everybody will are interested. in that. >> Right. >> So. >> A lot of people are very uninterested in. that in fact. And it would with. their business. >> Actively not interested. Like in. we don't want that. >> Right. >> don't want you to have it either. >> Well, that's a fear. That that's a fear. that like if you had some real. breakthroughs that were. somehow or another going to be a problem. for powers that be.

>> Yeah. That's a problem. >> you hear about these scientists that are. all all involved with the UAP story wind. up dead or disappearing. >> Yeah. >> And people say, "Well, this. statistically this can't be a. coincidence. This is a little too weird. It's gotten to some weird number where. you're going, we have to look at this.". >> Yeah. >> Now you so you hear the actual White. House is now talking about it. Like we. have to look into this. >> So the way I keep myself safe. and our other colleagues, we publish [clears throat] everything we. do.

Right. It's all it's all public domain. So we're not doing anything that's. secret. >> Right. >> The And the long-term consequences most. people don't think about at all. So, so that too. I mean, there are all kinds. technologies that are being developed. that may have bad consequences in the. future. Not that many people, except. maybe professional ethicists, are. thinking about is this a good thing or. not. >> Well, just imagine a world where. something comes along like, let's for. lack of a better example, let's use. GLP-1s. All right? GLP-1s, nobody heard.

about Ozempic and Wegovy just a decade. ago, right? Now all of a sudden it's a. multi-trillion-dollar industry. It's. gigantic. There's something like 39. million Americans are on these GLP-1. drugs. Imagine if something comes along. that. is beneficial in I'm not I'm sure that's. beneficial to obese people, but. beneficial. in a cognitive way for people. That you. have real science, real science which.

actually achieves a result. This result. becomes a supplement, and it becomes. something widely used and spread. Imagine the forms of control that are. used by society, that are used by. governments, that are used by mass. media, that are used by corporations in. order to pass whatever regulations they. want. What when you see politicians. talking, when you see the real agenda. behind it, all of it would evaporate.

All the all propaganda would. be completely useless. You would You would enter into a. completely new cooperative society where. all the parasites and psychopaths and. sociopaths would literally be exposed, and you'd have to deal with them. You'd. probably be terrified to realize how. many of them are in control of so many. institutions. >> Yep. >> And how much of what you've been told is. complete horse. How many nonprofits are a scam, how many. how many different things that are.

happening are just happening in order to. maintain control. >> That's why you can't do this overnight. >> Right. >> Right? So, the justice system would be. totally different. >> Right. >> Politics would be totally everything. would be totally different. >> Economics, everything. Resources, everything. >> So, there is a TV show kind of with this. plot now. The the one. called Pluribus. >> Yes. >> Right? The science fiction show. Uh which I think is doing a great job in. illustrating then that people.

>> But it's a nightmare. >> Well, people who are who are involved in. the hive mind, yes. It's like suddenly. everything is fine. >> Yeah, I don't like it. I like the lady. that gets drunk and yells at everybody. >> Well, because yeah, because it's a nice. it's a nice story. It's like. >> It's also just more recognizable. >> Yeah. That's that's she's she's us. >> Yeah, she's us. >> Yeah, but. I and of course there are stories like. the Borg in Star Trek and and that that. the way of hive mind is portrayed is. horrific. >> Right. >> Why? Because it's ego dropping. That's.

why. >> It would also eliminates creativity, individual expression. >> Because. >> that. But in the show it does. In the. show it does. In the show everybody just. becomes a worker. >> Not No, in Pluribus. >> No, not a worker, but I mean they're all. connected. They're all like they have a. task. >> can have the skill of a surgeon. >> Mhm. >> Everybody Right? So, so you have a bunch. of naturally creative people out there. Well, they all have it now. >> Right. That's That's the glass half full. version of it, right? >> Yeah. >> Right.

>> So, would we collectively even be more. creative? >> Right. If instead of, you know, asking. Perplexity a question, you just ask the. universe a question. >> You ask the collective. >> You ask the collective how to fix a. carburetor. >> Yeah, and then you know how to do it. Yeah, so that's so I mean it's from the. point of view of efficiency and peace. and all that stuff. I think it'd be great. >> Well, it's also people have to look at. it this way. Just what you have now by having a phone.

and being able to, like I said, just ask. Perplex- Perplexity any question on. human history, any ques- question on. mathematics, coding, anything. It gives. you all the available information. instantaneously in your phone. If you. just said that to someone 30 years ago, they'd say you're crazy. You. look at all the depictions in science. fiction about the future, none of them. involve the internet, none of them. involve phones, none of them involve. devices that you carry around that have. 24 hours of battery life that. can essentially do whatever you want, take pictures, make videos, record.

audio, download. movies, watch them instantaneously. You. could do anything on these. things. And we're just accustomed to it. It's just normal. [clears throat]. Imagine a society where this technology. that you're developing, imagine this, you continue this research 10, 20, 30. years, what do we have? What What it. What it What does this look like? What. does you and me even talking look like? One of the reasons why I insist on doing.

these things in person cuz I think it's. a very different experience. I just. intuitively It just feels different when. someone's in the room. When you're. having a conversation with someone in. the room, it's. I've had great conversations with people. through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden. when we do podcasts, we have to do it. that way for obvious reasons. But there's something missing. People, when you and I are talking right. now, there's something else going on. We're We're We're. our minds are connecting and we're. connecting somehow with all the people.

that are listening. There's this weird. thing that happens and it happens when. people in proximity to each other, when. they're right in the same room with each. other. There's something to that. >> Right. So, now think of the the. downside, the the compensation for. having phones everywhere. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, you talk to teachers about it and. they are running scared. >> Sure. >> Right? Kids don't know how to write. anything anymore. >> No attention span. >> And And not only that, if you start. relying on on Perplexity or any other. kind of AI, you're in serious trouble.

because those things are not perfect. >> Right. Right. They have hallucinations. They give you bad information. >> Right. >> I'm sure you saw this there was a. gentleman who was recently. he was a lawyer involved in a case and. he was citing these. >> Oh, yeah. >> You know the story? >> Yeah. >> So he's citing various cases that just. didn't exist. >> Yep. >> And he had gotten them from AI. >> Yeah. >> And. >> It probably looked structurally correct. except it wasn't actually real. >> He thought he had it beautiful. I got. this case wrapped up and.

the judge was like, "None of these. things you're saying have happened. They're not true.". >> That's some other world. >> Bizarre, right? Well, hopefully that'll. get ironed out, right? But the point is. you're relying now on the device. to do all the thinking for you and. you're not you're not absorbing much of. that information. You're not absorbing. it the same way. >> I can say as a scientist that AI is. making my job much much much easier. So I use Claude Code a lot. We use it. also in our genetic research.

Uh. it it's making things more efficient. Cuz it. basically for coding up until things. like Claude Code, it took a lot of skill. and time to be able to write something. that did what you wanted to do. >> But you're already a disciplined. thinker. You're not a developing mind. >> Well, not only that but when I ask uh I. ask AI to help me write something. immediately see all kinds of things that. it doesn't know. You know, I say, "Well, where did where. did you even get that information?" It. basically responds, "Well, I scraped it.

off of the entire internet.". Well, you didn't scrape very well. because you know, did you look at this. and did you look at this and that? And. it comes back immediately and says, "Oh, I apologize. I I didn't I didn't look at. that part." Because the algorithms are. designed to work fast. >> Right. >> And so it'll pull like the the surface. off and usually that's okay. >> It could be a troll Reddit post where. someone's just around. >> Who knows what it is? Like half of. Wikipedia is written by teenagers. >> Right. >> So, yeah. So, you you need to already.

have a a knowledge base so they can. challenge what it's telling you because. sometimes it's completely off. >> Right. Well, this is in the beginning. stages of this application, right? If. you think about the beginning stages of. the printing press, most of the books. were like kind of spot spot witches. >> Yeah. It's true. So, one hopes that things. will Well, of course, the the the danger. at this point is the AI is eventually. write itself. >> Right. >> And it's already getting to that point. And then we completely lose what's going. on. We have no idea.

>> Right. That gets weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That that was already true with the. development of neural networks. So, I. was using neural networks back in the. '80s when the the first idea first came. up. And so, you would you would learn. that this is related to that. And it. would do it through the neural network. training. And then you say, "Well, what. did you learn?". It couldn't figure it out because you. have all of these these weights and. nodes inside the network that were. encoding the information, but you. couldn't then extract out from it to. say, "Well, what How do How did you.

learn this?". It couldn't even tell you how it learned. it, but it did. And it learned it really. well. So, that that's a lot of that is going. on in the AI world, too. That it's learning things really, really. well, but it's too complex for us to. understand. >> Right. But do you think that if you. emphasize discipline thinking and teach. people specifically how to think and how. to learn and how to do for themselves. that they could then expand upon that.

knowledge with AI instead of using it as. a crutch? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Is that happening? I haven't seen that yet. >> Well, I haven't seen it, either, but one. of the things that gives me pause is the. popularity of long-form conversations. like this. Cuz we We this concept about. today and about human beings in general. that we're losing our attention span. But yet, what's one of the most popular. mediums? It's long-form podcasts. >> Yeah. >> Right? Because I think there is still a. hunger from a lot of people. And whether. it's people that. grew up at a different time where they.

did learn how to think and now they're. they're missing it and then they could. find it in long-form conversations or. whether it's. just always going to be something that. some people intuitively gravitate. towards cuz they need more stimulation. than they're getting from these simple. TikTok videos and Instagram reels. >> Yeah. >> And I think there's like we we have this. generalization about the perceptions of. people. And they're like, "Oh, we've. lost all of our ability to concentrate. Like we we don't care. Everyone has a. short attention span." I don't think.

everyone. I think a lot of people. because it's easy, all right? If you. leave junk food in front of a lot of. people, they will eat it. If you leave. healthy food in front of disciplined. people, they will say, "I don't want the. junk food. I'm going to have the eggs. and I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going. to take vitamins. I'm going to do what. I'm supposed to do because I know the. benefits of it cuz I'm a thinking. person.". >> Right. >> You you may still want the junk food. >> Right. >> But you're able to override it. >> Yes. You learn to discipline thinking, right? So, I think maybe education will move into a.

realm of being able to understand your. own personal psychology. You know, you'll understand the value of. discipline and the value of having a. structure to the way you think and being. able to apply those things and then also. recognizing that whatever this AI is. doing is just giving you information. It. doesn't make you smarter. It's not. giving you more knowledge. It's just. giving you data and you have to then. learn how to assimilate that data in an. actionable way where you can use it in. life. And we could teach people how to. do that, maybe.

>> I hope so. >> Yeah, I mean, it seems possible. But. again, it's like every single technology. that comes around. With television came. around, people were terrified that. people are just going to stare at the TV. all day. And a lot of them did. A lot of. them did, but also television, which led. to the internet. Well, yeah, it's. definitely distracting people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, we have more. access to information, more of an. understanding of so many different. things than ever before. And you have. the ability to have a conversation like. this. Right? A 3-hour weird conversation about.

a very esoteric subject. >> It's not that weird. >> No, I mean, it's not weird and it's. cool. >> It's Yeah, it's different. >> It's exciting. I mean, for the people. that are interested in this kind of. conversation, this is like food for. them. You know, they're like, "Ooh, exciting." You know, I guarantee you a. bunch of people will see this and see. the description of it in Spotify and go, "Ooh, this is going to be a good one.". You know, because there's a lot of. people that have a hunger for. interesting things. You know, I'm not a. dooms guy when it comes to technology. I.

have a feeling we're going to sort it. out. But I think it's going to be a It's. going to be a bit of a battle, be a bit. of a struggle. It's going to It's a new. thing. And you're going to Exceptional. people are always going to exist. And. there's always going to be people that. aren't going to be willing to just give. in to whatever this thing is that gives. them this crutch and just become a blob. that just presses buttons to get. information instead of thinking. I think. people are always going to want to. think. It's part of what's fascinating. about being a person is learning new.

things, expanding your understanding of. things. And just pretending you do is a. It's It's a party trick, but the the. real people that the real fascination is. actually learning something that changes. your perceptions. I think people are. always going to want that. >> Well, I'm optimistic because. uh humanity, at least our species, is. extremely resilient. >> Yes. >> So, all of us have some percentage of. mutations, which is part of the. resilience. I forget exactly 11% or. something like that. We Every every.

single person, even identical twins. Uh Uh, that's why we can survive an. asteroid hit or that's why we can. survive a a mistake that happens. somewhere. >> Yeah. >> So, ultimately, I'm I'm optimistic about. it. >> I am, too. But, I mean, I look back at. things like. you know, I mean, there's been moments. in this like you look at the pyramids, you go, "Okay, what happened? Where are. those folks?". >> They took off. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. What do you think happened? >> Uh, an asteroid or or.

I don't know. I mean, it it could have. been the ice age. Right? We don't We don't still don't. know exactly how old the pyramids are. >> Right. >> So, it may have been the ice age, and. now they all moved to Africa, and. they're Africans now. >> Yeah. Something. Something definitely. happened. Some strange shift. And that's. the the question is how many times has. that happened over the course of human. civilization? We want to think of it as. been this linear progression from. caveman to where we are now. It doesn't. seem to be accurate. >> No, I don't think so.

>> But, there's a lot of people along with. the same type of people that want to. resist the idea, even if you have data. They don't want to look at it because. they think it's nonsense. There's a. There's also a perception of that. Like, there there's no way people were more. advanced 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years ago. than they are now. That's not possible. Like, well, it kind of is. >> Yeah. >> Kind of It's not impossible, that's for. sure. And there seems to be some very. weird [clears throat] evidence in the. form of 2,300,000. perfectly cut stones that point to true.

north, south, east, and west that were. put in place by the civilization that. just emerged out of nowhere with this. ability. Kind of weird. That's kind of. weird, too. Like, to pretend it's not, and just write it off to, "Oh, people. were smart." Like. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Seems like. they knew some we don't know. They They did something we can't explain. to this day. >> Yep. >> Like, uh, I don't know if I would be so. confident as to be able to say that.

there's a linear progression from. caveman to us. I don't think that's. true. >> No. The hardly anything in in. the natural world is linear. >> Which just scares me if we it all. up right now and we have a nuclear war. and there's only like 50,000 people. left. Like how long before we get to. this position where we're trying to. almost get past this again? >> Yeah. It's like it's rough adolescence. >> Yeah. >> And so it's true. How long do you need. to take? Is do you need 100,000 years of.

a high technology society? Maybe. Well, where are we? Well, like. 20 years, 50 years. >> Yeah. >> into it and yeah, we're having a. problem. >> Well, that's where things get really. weird when people start talking about. UAPs and these whatever these beings are. if they are real. Like are they us? Are. they us from the future that is coming. back to make sure that we don't it. up and to sort of hold our hand through. this experiment and just watch and. observe on the outside in case things go. horribly wrong but allow all these.

mistakes to take place and allow this. progression to take place. and just wait it out. >> I'm a fan of Hal Puthoff's. ultraterrestrial idea. That that these. are not from the future, they're from. the past. They just happen to be way. more advanced than we thought. >> The past? >> Yeah. >> Like how far in the past? >> A million years? More? 100,000? Something like that. Uh it's because you you think about uh.

convergent evolution. So, what when I. was at UNLV, one of the places nearby. was. a. ornithology laboratory. So, birds. So, I would I would went to to the. museum and I said, "Oh, these are very. nice penguins here." And the director. said, "Tho- those aren't penguins.". Well, what is that? It looks exactly. like a penguin. No, those are auks. So, there's different birds from the. North Pole and the South Pole because of. convergent evolution were shaped to be.

like this bird. And so, I mean, they looked absolutely. identical to me. Cuz I don't know that much about. penguins anyway, but I you know, I said, "Look, looks like a penguin. It's not a. penguin. It is not. >> independently in the North. >> Yes. >> Wow. >> And so, why is it that the aliens that. that that we. >> That's not a penguin? Wow. Probably an auk. >> That's crazy. >> it's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. So, yeah. So, we had one of those and an. actual penguin next to each other in in.

the museum and I thought, well, that, you know, what is that? >> Wow. >> So, a lot of these aliens that people. talk about are basically like humans. >> Auks can fly. And swim. And they're smaller. >> Yeah. >> Wow. But, they're so similar. Even the. color. >> Yeah, the color, the shape. >> is crazy. Like, what is the benefit of the. The whole thing is very odd. >> why do we have uh so-called Nordic. aliens that look a lot like people in. Scandinavia?

>> Right. >> But, that would I mean, they you think. either come from a planet that is almost. exactly Earth-like. Which is possible, I. guess. Uh or they've already been here. They've. been here a long, long time. And the. same for many of the other aliens that. people talk about. It's they're they're. humanoid. Well, humanoid is shaped for a. evolution to be in a certain place. Cuz like we're we're so well shaped by. evolution that we can go outside on an. average place.

and even though there's only a couple of. miles of atmosphere, we're perfectly. fine. >> Are you aware of those examples of very. bizarre heads that they found, skulls. they found in places like Peru that. don't have the sagittal suture, that. have a brain capacity that's 30% larger. than ours? There's some weird skeletons. >> Yeah, so Gary Nolan talked about this, I. think. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. Um and there's real examples. of it. This These aren't theoretical. Like you can find these skulls that have.

a larger brain capacity. And you know, they've attributed to. real practice of flattening heads and. shaping skulls. That's a real practice. But the question has become was Did that. real practice emerge to mimic. a type of creature that was already that. already. >> existed. >> Yep. >> The cuz these skulls See if you can find. one of them, Jamie. They're very weird-looking. Like they're. very weird. They're big. They're bigger.

than a normal human skull. They have. more brain capacity and it's an. elongated shape. It's a different shape. This is not like a science fiction. theory. This is not like an artist's. rendition. This is an actual real skull. that doesn't have the sagittal suture. No, no, no, that's the alien things. These are That's a That's those those. monstrot. That's that thing that a lot. of people think is a fraud. >> the skulls they were talking about now? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's actually. elongated skulls that they found.

Elongated Just don't pull in tridactyl. mummy. Um just put in elongated skull no. sagittal suture. There you go. Like that. That one right there. Like. what the is that? That does not look like a person. That. is a real skull. >> Yeah, so some of that is shaping. >> Sure. >> Right? >> Some of it Some of these are, but the. ones without the sagittal suture are.

really weird. >> Yeah. >> Because that's a thing that all human. babies have because as your brain grows. and your head grows, you're you know, your your brain your skull is kind of. malleable. >> Mhm. >> That doesn't have it. And some of these that they found. actually have. more brain capacity. So, the shaping of. it wouldn't change the brain capacity. So, some of them do have that sagittal. crest, that sagittal suture. Um. some of them don't. And that one that. you showed up there,

I hope that's not AI. That one doesn't. I think that's real. >> It's be hard to see. >> Could be. >> Hm. >> Could be, but it's been described by. people who have examined them as being. different. There's also the positioning. of where it connects with the spine is. different. >> Hm. >> Oh, sorry, that goes right there. Where. the spinal column enters the bottom of. the skull is very much further back than. normal. A genetic adaptation or a. different kind of person. >> Yeah. >> A different kind of person that. coexisted. Like look at that one right.

there, Jamie, the Ever Crusader. Click. on that. That's crazy. Like that is really crazy. >> That's a replica. Yeah. >> Wild looking. >> But. >> That's a replica. So, what's the real. one? The real one is the one that you. showed that has Instagram on it. That's. a real one. Like that is kind of bananas. And if. that's not done through forming of the. skull and pushing the skull into the new. shape, what is it? And were they doing. that because they were trying to mimic.

something that was superior to them? And. that's where it gets weird. Like that. those real elongated skulls in the. museum up there, right above your. cursor. Yeah, to the left, right there. That's crazy looking, man. That's really. crazy looking. And again, that one. doesn't seem to have that sagittal. suture. Neither what does that one down there. that says 118? That's They're. strange. So, if that was an actual. different kind of human being that. existed along with us,

God, that explains a lot. >> Well, they're not here anymore. >> Right. >> And unless they're ultra-terrestrials. and they're living in the bottom of the. ocean. >> Right. I I know about that, but if they. are if that's them, who knows? I mean. you could get to a point where. a civilization becomes so advanced that. the biological entities aren't necessary. anymore. And then, that would explain. why they why they could exist at the. bottom of the ocean, why they could. exist with no oxygen, why they could. they no longer become dependent upon.

their environment to survive. >> They might have created environments. >> Right. >> Like the like the movie uh. There was a movie. I forget the name now. >> What was the premise? >> It was that there's a ship and um. there's like a missing submarine and so. they they dive down to it, but then they. see lights coming up. >> Oh, The Abyss? >> Yes. >> Yeah, that was great movie. >> Yeah.

>> That was a good one. Yeah. Well, there's always been stories about. I mean, Tim Burchett, the congressman, came on this podcast and was talking. about how there's five different. locations in the deep ocean that they're. aware of activity. That things have. happened there. They continue to happen. But, if you were going to study Earth, if you if you had to be like local like. where would you go? I mean, if you can. come here from another dimension, another galaxy, or wherever you're. coming from. you'd probably go in the ocean. You. You'd have trans I mean, they've. observed these transmedium crafts that.

are able to fly and go into the water. Isn't that ORC that ORC thing? Isn't. that kind of transmedium? It flies, swims. >> Yeah. Could be an alien. It's an alien form of. a of a penguin. >> [gasps]. >> But, it just at at a certain point in. time, you would imagine if we could get. far more advanced than we are now, and. we found out about a society that is at. a stage where we are currently for sure. we'd go visit. For sure we'd observe. And we would also.

probably try to stop nuclear war. >> It is an interesting question because. the the prime directive in Star Trek is. you don't mess with them. >> Right. >> Right, but they always do. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Star Trek is they. didn't even have the internet. They had. walkie-talkies. Kirk out. Remember that? >> No, well, they had No, they had the. communicator thing. So, we. >> Oh, we're talking about the next. generation. >> don't know how that worked. >> Yeah, I'm talking about the original. >> Yeah, no, it was Original is pretty good. though. >> Really good. >> Yeah. Especially when you think about it. was like the 19 what? 60s when it came.

out? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, part of my my personal mission. was to make Star Trek real. >> [laughter]. >> That's That's like it's. >> Including beaming people up? >> Oh, yeah. No, it's like the Vulcan, the. most rational creature on there was the. one who could do the mind melt. >> Yes. >> That's why I was thinking. Yeah, okay. An advanced species, this. stuff is taken for granted. >> Right. >> That's That's where my vision is saying. Yeah. And so, that advanced species may. be us. Might need a little evolutionary.

push with genetics. But yeah, we could. do that, too. >> So, this concept of the. ultra-terrestrial, that these things. have come from the past. Like, how are. they here? >> They've always been here. >> They've always been here. They just. exist, but they exist in a different. way? >> Well, so imagine even given current. technology, if there was another ice age. coming, and we may have a thousand years. to prepare. Would we be smart enough to do that? I don't know. Could we do it? Yes. We.

probably could. >> Boy. >> Yeah, and then so So, another thousand. years passes and you're below ground. somewhere, and then there the cave men. were beginning Well, do we interact with. them or not? Well, it's an interesting question. Like, we we don't want to get involved. in all that mess, cuz we. >> Sort of like how we don't visit North. Sentinel Island. >> Maybe. >> You know, like those people that live. beyond contacted tribe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's like.

>> You're literally not allowed to go. there. >> Let them develop the way they shall. develop. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah, I I can I can ex-. I can accept that. >> Well, there's if if it turns out that there is. some activity, that there are some. things that we can't explain that are. happening from deep in the ocean, we're. going to have to come up with some sort. of an explanation. If that is an actual. intelligent species or intelligent life. form, something, whatever it is,

there's got to be some explanation for. that. So, the ultraterrestrial one is just as. good. >> Yeah, there's an explanation for. everything. The question is, A, are we. smart enough to figure it out? And B, how long will it take? And and both of those are complete. unknowns. But that's I mean that that's yet. another reason why I like the kind of. work that I do, that you need to have. very high tolerance for ambiguity, of of. which I do. Like I'm I'm okay with not. knowing a lot of basically everything. I.

I know enough to be able to be. dangerous, but otherwise, I I don't mind. that I don't know. >> Well, I'm very thankful that people like. you are out there, cuz if you weren't. out there doing this work, and you. weren't out there expanding on this, I. mean, it it's really fascinating when. the if if something like this does. emerge, it would change the human race. And think about the small amount of. people that are involved in this. research. >> Tiny. >> Kind of kind of crazy. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge responsibility you have in a. lot of ways.

>> Well, fortunately, I also enjoy it. So, I I I mean, I'm I'm having fun while I'm. doing this, uh cuz otherwise, I I don't think I. would have chosen some other door. I. mean, I had plenty of opportunities to. to work with golden handcuffs somewhere, but I I get bored easily. And this is. the one area where I have never gotten. bored. >> Well, I'm very thankful. Thank you for being here, too. And tell. everybody where they can get Did you do. an audio version of this book? >> Uh I have an actor do it because I don't. want anybody to have to suffer with 12.

hours of my voice. >> [laughter]. >> Cuz I won't last that long. Yeah. So, there there's a an actor that does it is. very, very good. Um, and so, yeah. This is. There's one other story I want to say in. this that's in the book. So, this is a. synchronicity which again gave me the. idea that we don't know the limits of. what we're dealing with, which is. important. So, I mentioned that after. interval, we started a non-profit. This was called Boundary Institute. It. was in Silicon Valley. Uh, we found a.

an office park. uh, in Los Altos, which is just outside. of Silicon Valley. Um, and so, we we found a space that we. liked it. We. decided to get that. So, that's where. our new place would be. So, I were close enough to where I live, so I was able to walk to work. I always. walked a certain way. One day, I decide. to walk a different way. And I go past. another office called PsyQuest Inc. P S. I Quest Inc. And I thought, that's.

that's an interesting coincidence cuz. we're doing psi research. And now we. have PsyQuest Inc. We thought it was. Personnel Services Incorporated. something. We didn't know what it was. Thought that was funny. About 3 weeks go by and I decide to walk. yet a different way to work. I'm going. through this office place different. ways. And I notice that right next to our. office is something with a tiny little. sign that says PsyQuest Labs. And so, now we're thinking, what does a Personnel Services thing.

need with a laboratory? So, I look. through the mini blinds, there's nobody. in there. So, now I'm determined to find. out what what are you guys doing? So, every day over the next couple of. weeks, I go past that place, I knock on. the door, I'm looking through the. blinds, there's nobody there. Finally, one day I see somebody in. there, I knock on the door and I'm going. to say, "Hello, my name is." The door. opens, the guy's jaw drops before I. could say my name and he says, "Dean. Raiden?".

And then now I'm thinking, well, I have. never seen you before. I don't know who. you are. How do you know who I am? So he says. who he says his name and I I say, "Well, what do you what are you doing here?". "I'm doing what you're doing.". "What do you think we're doing?". "Cyber search, parapsychology, like what. you're doing.". So I I had to sit down at that point. because. we knew everybody in the world who's. doing this. There's only like 40 of us. around the world in maybe five or six.

different locations. Here is a psi. research laboratory in Silicon Valley. that no one has ever heard about before. And so I say, well, how did you know who. I was even if you knew, you know, we had. nothing in our our door that said it was. psi research. It said Boundary. Institute. He said, "I was looking. to contact you because I want you to be. on my board of directors, but I didn't. know where you were. and I didn't know how to contact you. So I open the door and there I am.".

So I say, "Well, what what were you. doing?" He was doing an exercise called. the yoga nidra, which is the yoga of. sleep, but there's a magical element to. it as well. So over a course of 24 hours, for 3. hours he was awake, 3 hours he sleeps, back and forth over the course of 24. hours. While awake, he's picturing that. I show up. And so I open the door and that's why. his jaw dropped because at that point he. was awake, he was walking around,

but I showed up and he was trying to. make me show up. So in sense he. manifested me. Now I think I have free will. Like we. you know, we freely chose that office. next door, I freely went to the door, I. freely did everything, but apparently I was being pulled by. him. So, well, that was strange. And so, I said, "Well, so how are you. doing this? What are you doing?". And so, he gave me a tour of his. laboratory. And that's when my jaw. dropped. Because what I had been doing,

adjacent wall next to his without. knowing what's going over there, on a. whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind. of chair that we wanted in a special. shielded room and equipment and. everything on the whiteboard. That's what he had. The other side of. that wall is what he had in his. laboratory. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. So, it's like a four-part synchronicity. where I was drawing to me what I wanted. I didn't know it was the other side of. the wall, but I was drawing it into.

existence. He was at the same time drawing me. We had the same intentions, draw each. other essentially, and we literally got. pulled into the same location at the. same time. >> That's incredible. >> Yeah. So, it was so incredible that I I. told the other guys in in our institute, and in a sense they they understood what. was happening cuz they saw the same. laboratory and stuff. After a while, we never talked about it. again. But I mean, it was so bizarre.

that and and so magical in a sense that. we we all thought we were doing things. of our own free will, but. apparently not. So, I started looking into Yoga Nidra, the magical side of it. It's all about. intention. It's focused intention in a non-ordinary. state, and it is it is literally a. magical practice. from out of the yogic tradition. So, yet another reason why I'm writing. about the science of magic, the real. magic, and showing how a lot of the.

science that we know now actually. overlaps. >> Wow. >> It's just it's not at the level of what. you would get in in Harry Potter, but nevertheless, a lot of it is real. >> Thank you for telling that story. That's. awesome. Thank you for being here, too. This is. really exciting. I really enjoyed it. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> Um so, the book, The Science of Magic. >> Yep. >> Uh available everywhere. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Is this for me? >> Yep. >> Oh, I got a copy. All right. Thank you. very much. This is really really really.

fun. >> Thank you. >> Uh let's do it again. I'm I'm excited to. hear where you go with this stuff. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Maybe next time I'll bring that nose. spray. >> Let's do it. [music] Bring it. All. right. Thank you. Bye-bye. >> [music].