Joe Rogan Experience #2508 - Joe Eszterhas

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Okay. Let's rock them. >> You need the headphones. >> Never. >> No. >> Okay. >> Um, >> if it's okay if it's okay with you. I I. know. I've seen it both ways on. >> No, you don't have to wear them. Okay. >> Well, you you were telling me about your. cane. That cane is amazing. >> It's It's amazing. It's it's carved by. the Doan people who who were in in Mali.

and the the uh it's a family that's been. doing it for 100 years and many of them. were killed in the Rwanda wars. Um it's. it's heavy. It's [clears throat]. beautifully done I think and it's been a. close companion of mine for many years. It seems to be indestructible. >> It's pretty awesome looking. It looks. heavy. The Doon people have a very. strange origin story. It's a fascinating.

origin story that involves. >> is it uh. the. involves like here it is. That's I don't. want I didn't want to misspeak. So here. it is. Um. centers on the supreme creator Amma and. the cosmic journey of the amphibious. water spirits known as the NMA. So they have this crazy cosmic origin. story that's a part of their mythology.

Amma then attempted to procreate with. the earth, but the pairing was flawed. It's like a very strange descendant of. the ark. According to the Doon. traditions, the NMA descended to Earth. from the Sirius star system and a giant. ark-like vessel. The vessel contained. the eight original human ancestors along. with the seeds and animals needed to. populate the world. Those are the do. >> amazing. It's amazing. I didn't know. that was amazing. >> Crazy story. >> My I have a daughter who's a nature. photographer. I mean, does a lot of work.

in Africa and um and uh she knows all. about that stuff. >> So, you were telling me before we got. rolling, I said, "Save this for the. air." [laughter] That Vladimir Zalinsky. and his wife have seen Basic Instinct. how many times? >> 15. At least 15. There's a recent. biography. that that said that that began when they. were courting and that they had known. each other before and one day she saw. him with with this tape in his hand. She. said, "What is it?" And he said, "Basic.

instinct and they then they saw it. together and it had such an effect on. them that they they played it together. many times at least 15 times during on. their anniversaries." Now, [laughter]. I'm not sure what that says. And you. know, and I know that some people think. the movies had a kind of amatory effect. on them. But the other thing that's. interesting to me is if you see it 15. times, does does it really [ __ ] you up.

to the point where you go to war with. with with. Putin? I mean, [laughter] is that the. real key to why it happened? >> Well, in his defense, Putin attacked. first, right? >> Absolutely. and and I like Zilinsky very. much as a figure and I'm I'm very. sympathetic to the Ukrainians because. I'm I've got a Hungarian background and. in 1956 the Russians devastated Hungary. in a similar freedom fight. So maybe. maybe it gave him the balls and the. wisdom to go after Putin.

>> Maybe it just made it. [laughter and clears throat]. >> Who knows? Might have nothing to do with. the war. >> Might might not. >> You made some crazy [ __ ] movies, man. You really did. [gasps]. >> It well be. There are 18 of them that. have been made and there have been like. 34 scripts that had been so there's 16. that haven't been made and and I don't. know, you know, I I kid around and I say. there's a twisted little man inside me. who lives in some spot that I'm not sure. where it exactly is, but he's 29, born. 29, he will die 29, and with anything.

that has a relatively strong sexual. content, he wrote the [ __ ] thing. I'm. just an old guy giving him the space, you know. So, when the when the recent. deal was made for a record amount of. money for Basic Instinct 3, because. there was a sequel to it, that was that. was a total piece of [ __ ] and I had. nothing to do with. But this would be. three. And my title for it is is Basic. Instinct Jezebel. um the um Twisted. Little Men put together this story um.

that I that I think people will have fun. with. But it's but it's it's continues. in that same vein and it seems to be his. specialty, you know. So, let's see what. happens. >> I like how you refer to yourself as like. another person. >> Yeah. >> The twisted man. >> There [laughter] is, you know, there's a. thing with with little kids where they. have have a companion, an invisible. companion, right? And the twisted little. man is my main one. I have others. Mark. Dwayne is one and interestingly Jesus of.

Nazareth is another you know and then. these these people are very very close. to me. Twist the little man is a darker. presence than the others. Although. though Twain is a cross between the two. of them and I absolutely love him. >> So when you were writing things like. Basic Instinct, do do you really feel. like you were channeling like another. person? Is that what it felt like? It. felt well let me tell the backdrop the. the uh I wrote it in 13 days. Um the um. um and and and then then I felt like.

like. it just poured out of me. There is a. background to it and that is that the. Katherine Tal character and then the. Nick Curran character. Um many many. years before in college um I had an. affair with a I was an 18-year-old kid. and I had an affair with a faculty. member's wife. Um and it was a serious. affair and and the the um we.

she was sophisticated, smart, beautiful, um sassy um um exactly the kind of woman. I've always fallen for. and the the uh. and she had a profound effect on me. Now, at at the end of the at the end of. the year, she moved on and I discovered. that there was a different student that. she was with each each year and that her. husband looked the other way. [laughter]. Um the uh. >> how old was she? >> 39. And I I was 18. I was a very green.

18 because I grew up an ethnic immigrant. kid. Um the uh the the uh. I I I fell in love easily. Um but. falling in love easily also meant a lot. in terms of learning things because I I. was an immigrant and I really didn't. know this country and I was shy. Um, [clears throat] and and I learned a lot. sometimes, I think, more from the from. the women that I was together with the.

beginning in college and through the. rest of my life than than I preferred. the company of women always. Um, because. they weren't armored off in in male. macho, right? >> Um, but but anyway, she was stuck there. in my memory. And then when I was a. police reporter um almost a decade and a. half later um a decade later at the. plane dealer, I had a buddy who was a. cop that I liked very much who had been. involved in three or four shootings. Um.

and when we got to know each other and. we spent time drinking together and we. did a lot of that, I started wondering. how if he really liked the shootings, was it was it an itchy trigger finger or. did he just get off on it? So somehow. these two characters were in my head and. and then I thought about them a lot but. they didn't come together. And then I. think thanks to the twisted little man. one day the two came together in in in a. love story. And that was the that was.

the genesis of basic instinct. Um and by. the time I I wrote it I thought about it. subconsciously and and directly for a. long time. I would wake up in the middle. of the night um and and jot notes down, which happens to be sometimes when when. I'm very involved in a script. Um and I. wrote it in in Hawaii. Um I went off to. Hawaii by myself. I let the sun beat me. up. I snorted some coke. [laughter] Um. the uh which which was an habit in those. days. Um and after 13 days of of all of.

that, and the other thing I did was. listen to the Stones all the time. I. loved the Stones. I I loved the blues. from the time I was an immigrant kid. and the stones just blew everything else. out during that period of time for me. So I listened to that at the end of 13. days that I had this script. Then I went. went back home to Marin um typed it up, sent it almost sent it to my agent with. the title Love Hurts and I was going out. the door. The twisted little man had. another thought and I raced back inside.

and wrote the words Basic Instinct. Sent. it to my agents. They auctioned it. Um, 10 days later, my main agent, Guy Mawin, who became my big brother and and uh and. one of the people I really loved in. life, everybody bid on it. Um, the it. wound up selling for a record $3. million. Um, and then it became a. towering hit to this day a trend. Um the. uh and this has now gotten the critics.

in the beginning were. critical. mildly critical. No actually the critics. were really after the movie and then. through the years um the the critics. have had a change of mind and. >> isn't that funny? Yeah, it just the. woman named Camille Bakia who is a main. feminist critic um who went went up. against the movie very strongly recently. not recently but in the past five or 10. years has come around and said that that. the movie is the example of it's a post.

feminist classic she says and it's about. women who don't who don't have to hide. their sexuality. Um so I'm. >> wild that she made such a turnaround. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wonder did you ever have a. conversation with her? >> No, I I've never met her. She teaches um. somewhere on the east coast and and she. has a towering reputation but I never. met her. I usually don't listen to. critics. It's through the 18 films and. you know I don't I don't listen to. critics. I worked with a director. Richard Markwand who directed Jacket.

Edge and the Hearts Excuse me and Hearts. of Fire and we worked on another another. one together and Richard said to me that. u critics should be taken out into the. backyard and shot. Okay. Went with. another director Mike Figus on the one. night stand who said that critics should. be taken out of the backyard and. headbutted to death. I [laughter]. was sympathetic to both to both things. >> It's so wild that your views were formed.

by this relationship that you have when. you're 18 with an older horny smart lady. who's like, you know, kind of wild. >> Yes. >> And then a cop. >> Yes. >> Who might have been a shady cop. >> Yes. and and how the two came together. and in this in this twisted thing called. creativity, >> you know, and they come out of this. maelstrom. >> Um, now the other thing I'm sure was an. influence is by the time. >> I did that, I'd been through four years. of police beat experience covering cops.

Um, two in Dayton, Ohio and two in. Cleveland. And excuse me. And that consisted of at. that point of driving around in a. company car that got the police radio um. and responding to whatever was going on. On occasion, you got there before the cops got there. Um and then the the one that really. stuck in my head and and got inside me. was was there was one with the report of.

a shooting a suburb in Dayton. And I got. there, um, there were no cops there. The. the the front door was wide open. I. walked in. Um, I I I passed the body of. a guy who who had shot himself and there. was blood all over the wall and then a. woman was his wife that he shot. And I. heard someone in the back of the house. screaming and crying. And then I walked.

went back there and the thing that was. really got to me is she was screaming. and crying in Hungarian. Um the and it. was an old lady who was the the mother's. mom. Um and and of course I spoke fluent. Hungarian. I grew up Hungarian. Um and. uh and there was something about the. scene that that's with me to this day. The other police beat experience I had, Joe, that was that was very moving was I. covered the the Glennville urban.

uprising in Cleveland. It was a big one. and there were I think six or seven. policemen um shot and killed. Um the I. was crouched behind a um a a car on the. street dugging down with with about 10. ft in front of me was a was a cop. bleeding, badly bleeding, moaning. um. and knew the the the um. and at the same time there were gunshots. coming from from this apartment house.

and I heard that the that the gunshots. were coming from a group of so-called. black nationalists led by a man named. Fred Ahmed Evans. I knew both men. from the police beat. Um the the uh the. the cop um was Hungarian. Um, his name. was Elmer Joseph. Um, and he would come. around to the little office in the. policeman all the time and I knew him. And and the black man was named Fred. Ahmed Evans. Um, and he would come by in.

his dashiki sometimes at 2 in the. morning because I worked the overnight. shift sometimes. And we had the greatest. talks, you know, drank a lot of beer, smoked a lot of dope, um, and got to be. pouted. and he was leading the group of. black nationalists and who had been who. were shooting these policemen. And I was. behind this this this car's wheels a few. feet away from the whole [ __ ]. >> Whoa. >> And I and I found the whole thing so.

frightening and so disturbing that I. pissed my pants. >> Um the the um so the the four years of. police there were other incidents. I. covered the the urban uprisings in in. Detroit, two in Cleveland and one in. Newark. Um the I was very involved in. the civil rights movement. Um the um and. I you know the that's what I did. I I. covered whatever was breaking and much. of it was dark stuff. Um so by the time. that hookup happened between Katherine.

um Katherine Trel and Nick Cerran, there. was a lot that went into it. >> Yeah. I could imagine like what the. insane life experience to be able to see. all those different crime scenes and. witness all that and. >> you know the what happened was that I. happened to pick a field um that. journalism I thought and and so did. Hunter one of the things uh we became. friends we were both poor kids the and.

we both dreamed of being novelists. novelist. >> and Hunter Thompson. Yeah, 100 times. Um, and the way that we. chose to begin that was by doing. journalism because no one made a living. writing novels and we both had to make a. living. Um, so the the under wrote stuff. for the National Enquire and then moved. on to Rolling Stone and all of that and. I did it on on a local level and the the.

that put us into a culture that was. exploding. Um the American society was. exploding. The the black situation visav. white racism was horrendous. Um so there. was a dynamic in the country um that we. were on top of because of what we did. So I saw a lot um I saw a lot in the. refugee camps because I was in I began. my seven years in refugee camps in. Austria and then grew up um dirt poor in.

an urban city. Um the the uh and u I saw. a lot of lot of stuff there as well that. was that was dark and moving and and uh. and profoundly effective. >> Well, also so when you're writing you're. writing from real world experience. >> Yeah. >> Which is so much more effective and. makes sense why your stuff was so dark. and wild. >> Yeah, it does make sense. the the um and.

the you know I mean I was when I was a I. was a kid in Cleveland growing up um we. lived in in a very poor part of town. near west side um and there's a bar next. door um and the um and I used I slept in. the on a couch in the living room that's. overlooked the bar and and one night um. and I was looking out the window because. I always was the neon lights and Puerto. Rican hookers and all of that stuff that.

really interested a little kid who would. spend most of his time playing with Mark. as the Mark Twain set with his pecker, you know. And so this was all very. exciting stuff. Um and the one I was. watching one one day and I saw this man. stab another one to death and fall down. and bleed to death. >> Oh jeez. How old were you? >> 12. >> Oh Jesus. Um yeah so um. there are reasons why the other thing.

with my scripts is almost everything in. my scripts is somehow comes from some. kind of personal tie you know big shots. which was little movie that that was. very popular with kids came from my son. Steve's experience um in Marin County. with a black friend and how they tried. to make that friendship work um and. That's what the movie is. It's a little. movie about two kids, a white kid and a. black kid, um them trying to become.

friends. Um the uh the the there was a. movie I did called Checking Out with. Jeff Daniels and that was about midlife. crisis and suddenly now at the in my. early to mid30s I was scared shitless. that I was going to die. and here I am at [ __ ] 81 talking. about dying at 30 something. Um but but. so there was there was a comedic thing. that came out of that. Um basically came. out of where it where it did. Um but.

there was almost with everyone there was. some kind of betrayed came out of out of. the notion that at that particular point. if you remember there was all this. right-wing craziness where there were. militias that that were shooting people. and and uh there were jamborees where. the where the right-wingers got. together. When was this. >> betrayed which which came out in the mid. 80s? There were several incidents in. Oregon and in in the northwest parts of. the country which got a lot of. publicity. It was before Timothy McVey.

Um but but all roughly in that same. period. So I decided under a under a. false name to go to one of these jambere. and see what the hell is going on. And. then it was essentially my journalism. experience that went into it and then. out of it I concocted this romance. between Deborah Winger and Tom Barer. So. but they they all had some kind of a. tie. Telling Lies in America, which is. one of my favorite little movies with. Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfro is semi-auto.

autobiographical. in terms of the issues I had as a high. school kid with bullying and all of. those kinds of things in the uh becoming. an American citizen. Um the uh they were. shot and incidentally right where I grew. up in front of the apartment house where. we lived. Um the um and I remember. hearing a TV reporter in Cleveland. interview an old man um was watching the.

the uh the shooting and saying um did. you know Joe and he grew up here? And he. said, "Yeah, I was a bartender there.". And he then he said, "Shit, Joe is just. a [ __ ] refugee trying to make his way. in the world." That's [laughter]. he nailed it. I mean that's really what. not a complicated thing but that's. really what happened. The only the other. the only other other things and nice. things have been said about me through. the years but the only other thing. that's that I really treasure and.

absolutely love is uh I covered I. interviewed Otis Reading the night. before he was killed in a plane crash in. Cleveland and the the u we started we. began speaking around midnight after a. show at a place called Leo's Casino. Um, and [clears throat] uh, and we began. talking around midnight and talked till. 3:30 in the morning. Um, and the uh, we. did a lot of beer. We did a lot of Jim. Beam. We smoked a lot of really powerful.

Thai stuff. Um, and had a great time. And at the end of it, he had to he had. to go go and he he said, "Give me a. [ __ ] hug." And I gave him a hug. And. he said, "You know what you want?" He. said, "You're a [ __ ] white [ __ ]. That's what you are." And I I love that. It stayed with me all this time. New. York Times said he's a force of nature. People said if Shakespeare were alive. today, would his name be josh. and what the old man said, I thought was.

really great, you know. >> Well, hearing that Otis writing was such. a legend. >> Oh, he was he was great. >> He died so young, too. How old. >> he died. He was really I was in his 30s. someplace. But listen to this. He the. interviewed him. I went home the next. day at the plane dealer. It was Sunday. and I was working um literally the day. after the interview and uh so I'm. sitting there in in this hall like city. room and the the I see a city editor. that the the Associated Press wire. machine start dinging and in those days.

if it had more than like four or five. dings there was some bad thing that. happened. So I said I saw a city editor. come from the city desk to this dinging. machine, right? And he's staring at it. The [ __ ] thing is still dinging. staring at it and then he looks at me. like that in in the city room and then. he looks away. So I saw that and then I. got up and went to to the digging. machine and Otis is plane had crashed um.

the uh the way to another gig. Um and I. I was probably the last man who really. spoke to him at at length. >> Wow. >> Um the um I left the office right then. and just said [ __ ] it for the rest of. the day. There was a bar across the. street. Um drank myself silly and went. home with the waitress. I mean I just. [laughter]. you know just horrible but but I saw a. lot to get back to your point show I did. and in different ways. Incidentally, I.

tried to write a movie about all this. called Blaze of Glory. Um, and the the. um we put it together. A man named John. Abd was going to direct it and it was. announced that Cuba Gooding was going to. play Otis and the the whole thing fell. apart at the last minute for financing. reasons and to this day it's never. gotten made. But um I'm a writer. What. else can I do with someone that I love. at a meeting except write about them in.

that way, right? So, >> well, anybody who writes interesting. things the way you do has to have had. some interesting life experiences. You. don't get those kind of scripts that you. wrote from a a sterile environment. >> Yeah. Um I I agree with that. the uh. sometimes. um not that the the after my my. conversion to Christ to Christianity. later late late in my life I wrote three. um Christian scripts and none of them.

were made um and one of one of them. wasn't made was wasn't made because um. the one of the priests involved with. potentially getting Christian financing. has said we need more incense. Right. And my response to to to somebody. who interviewed me about it was, I don't. write [ __ ] incense. I write flesh and. blood, you know. So So no wonder it. wasn't made. >> What did he mean by you need more. incense?

>> Well, the to make it more himlike to. make make give it a sense of piety. >> [snorts]. >> um they they would to take. to make it inspire to people so that. they become um Catholic in this specific. case and that it was too secular. Um and. I think what happened to me with all. three is that I fell between pews. between so-called Christian films and.

secular films. >> Um and uh and so that's why we never got. the finance answer all three of them. fell between Christian films and secular. films. You mean in the way you were. writing it that you weren't writing it. specifically as a Christian film or. specifically as a secular film? >> The way I was writing it naturally. without. >> like you wrote everything else. >> Yeah. Without political considerations. or. clergical clerical considerations. I was. just writing it from my heart and that.

was too gritty to get Christian kind of. financing and on the other hand too. religious to get the secular financing. >> That's too bad because that bridge is. probably what would have bring more. people to Christianity where they could. relate to it. I agree with you. absolutely and my argument was you know. these could be hit movies because my. movies in a lot of cases have been these. could be hit movies and that's more. important than than than. spiking people with incense right.

>> it's interesting how Hollywood has. always rejected those kind of religion. film religious films like uh the passion. of the Christ for instance that was a. huge movie. >> well it's not just a huge movie but in. my mind um it was like a prayer you know. the uh I watch it each Good Friday um. and it was a huge movie beautifully done. um the u the uh it was it wasn't. officially endorsed by the Catholic. Church although I saw I saw in Cleveland.

a a meeting where where a priest. organized a preview um screening of the. movie and they had like 700 people the. whole hall watching it. There was such. an interest in it. But part of it part. of the reason I think and you rais a. good point because I think part of the. reason um it was such a towering yet. >> was that it was real. It wasn't it. wasn't incense filled. It was real.

There was you had a figure who bled and. you really show what happened upon that. cross and how awful. >> Yeah. >> But that kind of pain is and the movie. really reflected that. >> No, it was horrific. And then there was. also that William Defoe film. What was. that one called? >> The The Last Temptation of Christ. >> That's right. >> Buddy Scorsese. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The uh I agree with that. The I I. love Wouldn't that Bo I mean he's one of. my favorite actors. >> Um the and and I like that and it's also.

very real that historically real. >> Yeah. you know, the the the the notion. that that. Jesus of Nazareth. um you know, was this Fred Rogers figure. um who wasn't really a real man whereas. the Bible says he was a true man and. true God um the that show really showed. his that film really showed his human. side. >> Yeah. and and my conception of Jesus who. I rever and who is one of my one of my.

close friends that I speak speak to on. most days um the uh is that he was true. man and true god. He was a Jewish zealot. a freedom fighter against the Roman. Empire. Um the he was crucified by the. Romans. Um the as a freedom fighter, he. hung around bluecollar guys and and and. fishermen and hookers and tax collectors. who were the lowest of the low back then.

as they should be now, but they were the. lowest of the low back then. And those. were the people that he primarily. buddied around with. That's that's Jesus. of Nazareth. and and that that side is. is completely ignored by most films. except the two that you mentioned. specifically that are like that. >> Yeah. the last temptation of the Christ. I don't remember. I remember there was. some controversy around it, but I don't. I was too young to really be paying. attention to like how.

>> it was the very fact that Jesus had a. relationship. that was clearly indicated as being. sexual with Mary Magdalene who was. depicted as a prostitute. Now the truth, historical truth is that Mary Magdalene. was a few years older than Jesus and a. woman of means who had advised um. advised. Roman builders in it in a city called. Sarapin. And then was one of the people. who financed Jesus as he swept through.

Galilee and and the rest of Judea. Um, a. a there's another scene in the in the. Bible where where an unnamed woman um. goes to Jesus and and the washes his. feet um and then washes his feet with. his hair, right? This unnamed woman by a. pope in the sixth century, Gregory the. Great, was picked to have been Mary. Magdalene. No connection to Mary.

Magdalene. There's no no nothing that. says that Mary Magdalene was a hooker of. any kind and then there's no proof for. that in any way. So the fact that the. Last Temptation of Christ did that and. and and and. brought the two of them together in a. sort of semi. love story without of course any real um. sexuality to it on film is why it was so. criticized. Scorsese's house was.

picketed and I think the studio at that. point was run by Lou Werman. whom I knew from from Cleveland because. he was a he was a u. he ran a racing wire in Cleveland before. he went but but he was legendary man. His house was was pickoted as well. >> So was it just uh Catholic people and. Christian people that were upset about. this? >> Mostly. Yeah. So yeah, >> but it was it was very unusual for a. Martin Scorsese film to be a religious.

film too, like a depiction of Jesus. It. >> people were much more averse back then. I I feel like sometimes like religion. goes in like peaks and waves and I think. >> there was a wave of atheism back then. and Hollywood was very non-Christian to. put it mildly. Yes. It wasn't that the. Christian themes and films were never. promoted. >> Yeah. It was the You're absolutely. right. The u it's not as bad now in that. sense as it was it was in those days.

The and I think that that part of it. what frustrates me is that. is that there would be an openness to. that and and to Christian films if they. were real if they didn't if they weren't. full of incense and piety, right? >> You know what we've done to Jesus over. the years is make him a kind of Fred. Rogers figure. You know, he wasn't that. Um, you know, the I'm not even sure that. Jesus really said, "Do not resist. violence." You know, Jesus also said,

"If you have a a cloak, but not a sword, sell the cloak and buy a sword." He also. said, um, the I come not to make peace. I come. not not not to make peace, but with a. sword, you know. So the. there's been a lot of of um of church. stuff um and then especially I think. Catholics are more guilty of this that. to romanticize and sort of cosmeticize.

the figure of Jesus of Nazareth. >> Well, there's always a problem when. human beings add their own. interpretation to an ancient story and. >> absolutely. >> and do it for to fit their own. narrative. >> Absolutely. it's a great problem. But in. this case, there is historical evidence. on the other side and they they simply. ignore that and pretend it doesn't. happen. The Gnostic gospels um are full. of of um so-called revolutionary things.

And the truth is that the Gnostic. Gospels were written 40 years 30 40. years after the death of of Jesus. Whereas the Zata gospels, the ones that. the churches have accepted were written. 80, 90 years after the death of Jesus. So they had to have been taken. secondhand from people who said they saw. things where with with the previous. there's a there's a shot that people. directly saw them. The people in in in. in the church gospels who are named like.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not. the people who are in the gospels as. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Then. nobody knows who write them. They took. with those names, but they were they. were not those people. >> really. >> Yeah. >> I had no idea. >> Absolutely. No doubt. Even the u even. the the churches admit that at this. point. 2,000 years is such a hard time for us. to conceptualize to put our into our. head as to how much time has passed.

>> Yes. such a you know to try [snorts] to. get an accurate understanding of what. was going on back then it's insanely. difficult. I have become a since since. my my sort of conversion to to. Christianity and I would style myself a. devout Christian but not not a devout. Catholic even though I go to mass um and. I I love the mass and believe in it. But. since um since 2001. when this process really began, I I.

become a real student of the historical. Jesus um the u the u and I learn more. and more and I'm I'm more and more. astounded at at what's been done. to to cosmeticize. um this man who is Jesus of Nazareth. >> Well, it's also he had some of the most. profound and. and. insanely resonating. teachings like even today the words that.

he spoke 2,000 years ago there still. today people. I mean they they resonate with people. and if you live your life by the. teachings of Jesus Christ you will be a. better person you will. >> it is a great framework to live your. life. >> yes. >> which is incredible when you think about. a person that lived so long ago. >> he is a much better person to to pick as. your um imagined companion than Mark. Twain, [laughter].

>> your imagined companion. Let me ask you. this when it come because I had a long. conversation with um Mel Gibson about. this. What do you think about the shroud. of Turin? >> Well, there was a study done a major. study that was done by by the Catholic. Church led by John Paul 2 wh who whom I. I I really admired. um the um and and and read a lot about. through the years that this is a. scientific study that discovered that.

the shroud of of Trin came from 1313 or. 1320. um the um now this is huge controversy. about it and there are those people who. who feel that that absolutely is Christ. and I must say that when I look at it. when I look at that figure and I've I've. done that a lot and in my house we have. several blowups of of. Tin's Christ it's very very moving um.

the u but the the evidence what there is. seems indicate that it comes from the. 1300s. >> Yeah, I've seen that as well. But then. I've also seen people that say that that. evidence. >> there's some some controversy about that. evidence and that some of the cloth they. they believe dates to far earlier and. it's the type of cloth and the way it's. made. >> seems to indicate that it's far older. >> Um I don't know how much of the cloth.

they've carbon tested. you know that. that is also an issue and whether or not. it had been repaired, whether or not. there had been additional pieces. >> I don't either. But you know what? Ultimately, when I look at that and when. I look at that Jesus and and I've done. that quite a bit, that face really moves. me. So, in a sense, I don't give a [ __ ]. >> At the very least, it's an insanely. compelling piece of artwork. >> Absolutely. >> At the very least. Absolutely. But. there's also a lot of very strange.

mysteries as to how that was created in. the first place because it's not a die. and they're not exactly sure what caused. that image to appear or how if that if. that is a piece of art. They don't know. how that art was created. And the fact. that they really only could see the. accurate representation of it once they. saw it as a negative is also very. interesting because who's going to make. a piece of art where you can only really. appreciate what it looks like when you.

see it as a negative. Especially when. you're talking about something that. you're doing, you're making something in. the 1300s, >> right? >> Hundreds of years before photography is. ever created. So what are you what are. you making? And why is it so compelling. when you look at it in the negative? And. if you're talking about something that. was created by an insane burst of. energy, which is what the proponents of. the Shroud of Torm being legitimate, think, they think it was created by this. insane burst of energy on Jesus's. resurrection. You know, I'm not I'm.

agnostic on it. I don't have no idea. whether it's real or not real, but I I. find it fascinating that they have no. real explanation as to how it was. created. the. I'm pretty much of a complete ignoramus. on anything that have to do with. science. Um, you know, I flunked. algebra and geometry and even biology, although I caught up with biology from. personal experience, but but I just. don't know. It doesn't matter to me. ultimately because I'm moved when I look.

at that when I pray before that image. and I look at it. Um, I'm moved. So, as. far as I'm concerned, for me it's real. It may not be for. other people. >> Well, like I [clears throat] said, it's. at the very least it's an insanely. compelling piece of artwork. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> But the thing that I don't want to. dismiss the possibility that it's real. because I'm fascinated by just the. mystery of how was Can you pull up an. image of the the.

>> the negative version of it? >> Yeah. was trying to look up a bunch of. stuff you guys are talking about though. and there's no answers for any of the. stuff you're saying. >> There's no answers as terms of why. >> I was just like I was looking for an. accurate recreation someone's made, you. know, in the last 200 years and doesn't. seem to be one. >> No, no one has. Yeah. When you look at the image and you. realize that this is an actual negative. of the original shroud, you you just you stop and think like,

well, what would someone do if you if. this is the negative? Like, how would. you create that as a positive? Because. it can you show me also the positive. image of it? What it actually look like? Okay, so here's this is one image. So, this is what it actually looks like. This is the actual shroud. And when you look at that, you go, "Okay, I see like shadows and it's very. interesting." And then switch over to. the negative and it all comes to life. And there's marks from the lashes from.

the the whip marks. There's there's. blood stains from where the rods went. through his wrists. >> It's very fascinating. >> Yeah, it sure is. >> And again, this is not dye. It's not ink. and they don't really know how it was. made. And again, no one has been able to. recreate this. >> Yeah, it said the the uh cloth was made. most likely from a loom that wasn't.

invented until like the 1300s. >> Okay. >> That doesn't necessarily mean that's. where it for sure came from though. But. >> Right. Right. But um. >> here's about the image. It's just like. how how was the image transferred to the. cloth? I asked just you know does. anybody have any idea? I've seen a video. where someone gave some sort of. scientific explanation but I don't know. if I could remember how to find it right. now. >> Says it behaves like a photographic. negative negative and shows some 3D. information which is unusual for normal. artwork.

Uh the chemical theories that body heat, sweat or vapors reacting with the cloth. I uh example ammonia or lactic acid from. sweat may have uh have been proposed but. don't reproduce the shroud's sharp. non-blurry details. Simple heat or. scorch theories likewise fail to match. the very shallow nonburn discoloration. of the fibers. human or madmade image uh. humanmade image theories painting or. rubbing from bass relief has been tested.

but studies have not found pigments in. the amounts or patterns that would. explain the image and there's no clear. brush strokes primitive photography some. suggest that a medieval camera using. light sensitive silver salts and lenses. could have projected a body or statue. onto the cloth and experimental replicas. show that it's at least physically. possible though historically speculative. and now here's the weird One, radiation. bursts of energy theories. Some. researchers argue that a brief intense.

burst of ultraviolet or similar. radiation from the body could have. discovered discolored only the top. fibbrals producing a non-cont image even. where cloth and body didn't touch. Proponents sometimes link this to. Jesus's resurrection. But the need the. needed radiation billions of watts. without burning the cloth is far beyond. anything observed in nature. And this. remains a speculative face-based idea. rather than an established physical. mechanism. In short, there's no.

consensus mechanism. The image transfer. process is still unexplained, and every. proposed method has serious problems. when tested against the cloth's measured. properties. Wild. >> Amazing. I mean, there's no other piece. of artwork that's that fascinating. >> because every other art, Michelangelo's. work, you know, and all this incredible. art, it's art. You see what they did. There's brush strokes, there's chisel. marks, they, you know, they made. incredible sculptures, but it's clearly.

man-made art, >> right? >> This is a different thing. It's a very. strange thing. If you can't recreate it. today, if they could recreate it today, people would be doing it. They'd be. making their versions of the Shroud of. Char. >> Absolutely. I don't know that that's. been done historically, but what you. know whether some you know some nutbag. has decided to do business over. recreating the shroud of ter. >> Is there did they carbon test it? And. what what are the what are the arguments.

that it's older? Because I I do know. that there have been some very recent. arguments that the testing was incorrect. and that it's older. See if you can find. out what that is. whether or not. AI whether Perplexity our sponsor has. some sort of a bias. like. the thing is it's like pulling from all. these when when you get an AI response. to something it's pulling from all these. articles on the web and most of the. articles seem to indicate that people.

think it's at least either a hoax. >> or an elaborate. >> carbon dating seems like it happened in. 1988 so I don't know that they've done. it. >> supporters of an earlier date argue that. the 198 1988 radiocarbon results. 1988. is a long time ago. Sampled an anomalous. or contaminated area and that other. historical and scientific clues point to. a much older cloth. Okay. What is the. scientific arguments? Contaminated. repaired sample. Some research claim the. 1988 test piece came from a rewoven or. heavily handled corner. So its carbon.

date reflects medieval repairs, not the. original cloth. Alternative dating. methods, X-ray or crystalog. crystalallographic aging of linen fibers. has produced dates compatible with the. first century, though these methods are. newer and not widely widely accepted as. definitive pollen and dust. Analysis. reports pollen, grains, and mineral dust. consistent with the first century Middle. East rather than only medieval Europe,

which proponents say supports a much. older origin. Image property. Some argue. that the image microscopic features and. bursts of energy type characteristics. require technology or phenomena unlikely. in the Middle Ages implying an earlier. extraordinary event. [snorts]. Well, why don't they do a retesting? >> Uh, >> they probably don't want to know that it. actually is from the 1300s. >> I just don't think they want. >> John Paul who um really believed in it.

um he went to see it in Trent several. times. He said he was moved by it and. that's when they launched this big. Vatican investigation. >> and he never said in any way that he. agreed with the investigation. He just. seemed to drop the whole issue. Um the. and then from what I know it never went. any further, you know. Um but he visited. it twice. It went out of his way. >> Where is it be? >> It's in Tins looking up that too. It's. currently in the Chapel of the Holy. Shroud. But so here's interesting was.

who found it and when and why or. whatever. >> The earliest undisputed record appears. in the 19 the 1350s rather in Liry, a. village in France where the knight. Joffrey dese displayed a cloth claimed. to be Jesus's burial shroud. How he. obtained it and where it was between the. 1st century and the 14th century are. unknown. Later theories trace it. speculatively through Adessa and. Constant Constantinol.

>> Constantinople. >> I can't never say that. Constantinople. But these links are debated. Interesting. What does it look like? How. is it displayed? >> That's how it's displayed. >> Constantinople. was named after Constantine who was the. first Roman emperor who made Roman. Catholicism the national religion. Bryant. >> Wow. So, you can go check it out. And. how big is it?

>> Boy, they got that sucker walled off, huh? >> I from my impression, Joe, it it this. was these this was over the length of. Jesus's body, >> right? >> So, it's longer than than certainly I. expected. >> Well, you can see it's both sides. So, apparently folded over, right? >> I wonder what all those markings are. Those small triangle markings. Like what is all that? >> Like these things. >> Yeah. >> One other picture was pointing those. out. They might be the burn marks that.

it was saying that there's burn marks on. it. >> Again, it's. 2,000 years old in theory. >> Just imagine if it's real. That's the. thing. It's like I never want to dismiss. the possibility that it's real because. imagine if it is real. That is. >> I absolutely I agree with you and I in. my mind it's real and I pray to it. And. you know the and I don't I try not to. worry about whether it's real or not. I. know that I'm moved and that's that's. you know that that's good enough for me. >> What led to your conversion to. Christianity? I mean from a guy making.

these wild. insane movies. >> Jamie, can I ask you for some water? >> This water right here. >> Oh, great. Thank you. >> This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to. banking. JD Power just ranked them the. number one choice for new bank accounts. in America. And that's not a small. thing. That means real people, millions. of them are choosing this over.

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and Chime card provided by Chime's bank. partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to. chime.comdisclosures. for more details. >> How long ago did you convert to. Christianity? >> Well, I grew up Catholic. Um I was an. alter boy when I was a kid. Um the um I. knew one really great priest in my life. who helped me with my life. Um the I.

became a lapse Catholic and then when um. the at the tail end of living in in um. in LA in Malibu actually I was I was. hugely successful as a screenwriter. of course and and um the um and I was. being interviewed all over the place and. people were stealing mail from my. mailbox and all that [ __ ] and and Um, I.

I I should have been overwhelmingly. happy with that, but something was. missing I felt and I couldn't really put. my finger on what that was, but. something was missing in my life. Um, the and then I got throat cancer. Um, stage four throat cancer. um the uh. shortly after we moved back to. Cleveland, you know, the uh from from. Malibu and then the the Cleveland Clinic. and then a surgeon named Marshall Stro. did a surgery that they had never done.

in this country that done in Switzerland. um where they took some they took the a. muscle from the left side of your neck. and attach it to your larynx. stage four. was very dicey and and he was very. honest with me about how dicey it would. be and he did it spectacularly and and. here I am at 81. Um the but in the. course of all of that when I was when I. was terrified and and and u and uh and.

really frightened from one day to the. other. um I ran across Jesus. um reading and and partly Naomi's. influence because Naomi also grew up. Catholic and she had a a very the strong. um the. very strong faith and then then I went. to church a couple of times. Um and I. and I loved the mass um the the mass.

itself. Um, and in the in the course of. recovery, it was about a three-year. recovery for for some time I couldn't. speak and then I spoke like Brando. Um, and then I squeaked um the um the in the. course of my recovery. I did everything. I could physically to help. I I jogged. and walked and did all of those things. Um, and I I recovered. Um, and I felt. afterwards that that the reason I was. able to beat a stage four cancer had to.

do with my prayer life. Um, and then I. started reading um, voraciously about. Jesus of Nazareth, the apostles, all all. of that, ancient Jewish history, um, Catholic history. Um, and some of that. really moved me as well. um the the um. so I started going regularly to church. [clears throat] with Naomi and then as. the bo boys were boarding with with the. boys as well and as time [clears throat].

went by excuse me. as time went by um the I also started. having issues with the Catholic Church. Um, I continued going to the mass. because that that was a very special. thing to me, but I had issues with with. the history of anti-semitism in the. church. Um, the issues with sexism in. terms of not allowing women to be. priests. Um, the u.

issue is with with the the pope making. so-called infallible decisions. And I. shut most of that off. Although in the. process of it, my Christianity didn't suffer at all, but but sometimes I felt like I was. becoming a kind of an agnostic Catholic. Um the um and and my faith in Christ. and even as all of that happened is unfl.

flagged. Um I still pray to Jesus, pray. specifically to Jesus. Um the um and he. is continues to be a major important. figure in my life. >> So your issues were with the. organization as the Catholic Church. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> I I respected Martin Luther's. um revolution because he revolted. against those same kind of issues. But. the the u.

the um as I said at the mass continue to. hold me worship is terrific and I really. believe in it. I actually then the kind. of worship that really moves me is is. black spiritual worship full scale. emotional I give myself to you Jesus. kind of worship. um the um and and I. felt that I didn't want to that I didn't. want to really switch religions because. I had my basic Christianity, you know,

and that's continues to be important to. me. >> So you you felt moved by like Baptist, >> black Baptist, >> black Baptist, they the the whole. emotional. >> Yeah. >> throw up your arms and say, "Okay, here. I am. Take me, Lord." Right. >> Which definitely seems a lot more fun. >> It's fun. >> They they look like they're having way. more fun. >> It's fun. I the I also have been very. fortunate through the course of my life. to have black friends and and uh to. share the black culture. I was involved. in in the civil rights movement. I had a. shotgun stuck in my belly by a deputy.

who'd been indicted for killings and. told to get the [ __ ] out of the county. Um I I had the good fortune to have. lunch with the Reverend Martin Luther. King. >> Oh wow. >> Um the um I knew Stokeley Carmichael. >> What was that like? >> Well, it was the most amazing thing. He. was in town because of a of a the death. of a of a minister in a protest and and. the the it was an unheralded appearance. and I think it was partly before um he.

became the towering international figure. and the the um the uh he was heading. back to the airport and he couldn't find. couldn't find his ride and I happened to. be right there and I said I can I can. drive you re drive Reverend King. watching. He said, "Okay." So again, we. we on the way to the airport, he said, "Are you hungry?" "I'm hungry. Can we. stop someplace?" I said, "Sure." So we. did. And the.

what what amazed me about the man is. that he was more interested almost in. hearing about my refugee camp. experiences and what that was like and. how that worked and all of that. He said. he didn't know much about it. Then he. really than he was about he was about. talking about the the civil rights. movement. >> Wow. >> Um he was very very moving and a. powerful figure. Um the end then I just. drove him to the airport but the the uh. there was something about the man that. was absolutely magnetic you know that.

and that I felt. >> clearly. >> Yeah. And then but then I also when I. was in college I had a relationship with. a young black woman. Um the um and and. that brought me much closer to to black. culture than I mean know I was a ethnic. [ __ ] kid, you know, a refugee and I. certainly needed lessons in that whole. cultural area and I got them and then I. sought them out. Um and uh when when. when I was at Rolling Stone, um Huie.

Newton was over in Oakland and he would. come over sometimes. Um the uh I think. partly I had partly suspect. because the at Rolling Stone we had some. of the most beautiful women in the world. working there. We did have air. conditioning and when it got real hot. they they they didn't wear a top at all. So word about that spread. So it was. sort of funny. >> They were topless. >> They were topless when the when it got. real hot. >> What year was this? Was in the 60s. >> I was at Rolling Stone from 71 to 76.

>> Wild times. >> I was right right in there. um in the in. the. in the years where where the cultural. revolution was exploding. >> Yeah. >> The women's revolution was was was. exploding. Um and and to be at Rolling. Stone at that time was like being in the. vortex of all of that. You know, the uh. and and u it was just a crazy time. You. know, the the uh the sexual revolution. was at its absolute height. Um, and the.

the uh I've always, as I said to you, I've always really loved smart, sassy, sexy women. Um, and the whole office was. filled with them, you know. >> Oh, I'm sure. What year was the birth. control pill invented? >> I have no idea. And. >> let me guess. 65, >> right? >> 64. Let me guess. >> I'm just taking a wild swing. I have no. idea. approved by the FDA and introduced to. the market in 1960.

>> 68. >> 60. >> 1960. Interesting. >> Yeah. Well, that had a big factor, right? >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Because before, you know, women were in. a situation where every time they had. sex, they could get pregnant. >> Absolutely. >> And then all of a sudden, >> but then you've got this pill that's. [ __ ] with their hormones that we. found out now that women that have been. on it for long periods of time, they. make poor choices in terms of mates and. It does a lot of weird stuff. I mean, when. >> we're learning We're learning a lot of. weird stuff. I.

>> Yeah. And also, it's very dangerous for. them. Uh, a friend of mine, his daughter. died. She was 17 years old. She was on. the birth control pill and she was. smoking cigarettes. >> and she I guess uh smoking cigarettes. and birth control pills for some people. can cause blood clots. I don't I don't understand why or what, but that is an issue, right? You're not. supposed to smoke if you're on birth. control. See if that's still the. recommendate. Well, obviously they tell. you not to smoke, period. But I think there's some potential.

complication. Smoking while taking oral contraceptives. that contain estrogen significantly. increases the risk of severe. cardiovascular events like heart attack, strokes, and blood clots. The risk is. particularly high for women over 35. Quitting smoking or using alternative. birth control is highly recommended. >> Yeah, >> Joanne had more fun at Rolling Stone. than any any other time in my life. >> I bet you did. I just. >> I had Yan Wer in here once. >> Yeah, I saw him. >> It was an interesting conversation.

>> He kept looking at his watch. >> Well, he was, you know, he was Yan. Winner of 2024 or 2025, not Yan Winner. of 1975. >> Yes, absolutely. >> You know, not the Yan Wener that was the. editor when Hunter Thompson was writing. crazy stories and. >> you know, different times, people. change. >> You are a big Hunter fan and huge man. and I know. >> and so am I. and I wanted to talk about. him because I really haven't had a. chance to talk about him specifically. Um, Hunter really was the cause of my.

whole huge success even as a. screenwriter. Let me tell you how um the. I was a reporter at the plane dealer and. I had read Hunter of course um when he. was the National Observer doing those. kinds of pieces from Latin America. [gasps] before he discovered Gonzo. Um. the um and um I covered at the plane. dealer I covered a a ael. shootout of a of a bar called Bartos.

Cafe in Cleveland. Um and I wrote a. story about it that the Associated Press. picked up and put on their national. wire. Um the and I get a note um shortly. afterwards from Hunter Thompson who had. read the story on the AP wire and wrote. me a note that said. I'm barely paraphrasing. Big [ __ ] Now. there are two of us who know how to.

write about Hell's Angels. That really. pisses me off. All the best [laughter]. on dressing. Well, >> that must have been a fun thing to get. >> Oh, man. I was [gasps] I was as excited. about that as my two sons were to meet. Joe Rogan. They [laughter] really they. really it was really really something. So, okay. So, time goes by um and I get. a call from Rolling Stone. I know I've.

heard it first. I do a couple of. freelance pieces for Rolling Stone. went. on Ken State um one year afterwards and. the other I forgot what the other one. was but um then then I get a call from. the managing editor Paul Scandlin who. incidentally was the was was the. backbone of the editorial content. He'd. come from the from the Wall Street. Journal and he wanted to take on the New. York Times for Rolling Stone. So then. then they wanted me to do a freelance.

piece on narcotics agents, um, corrupt. narcotics agents. So I go out there and. and I discover that. that Hunter had been after them to hire. me because of that piece and they kept. saying he's a good guy and all of that. Um, then when I'm at Rolling Stone, I. write a a book called Charlie Simpson's. Apocalypse. um that Hunter loves. by now we know. each other and and and we're friends and.

and and we enjoy each other's company. and the and I write this book and Hunter. um gets me as agent who was the top. literary agent in the country and then. gets me as publisher which is Random. House to to publish it and then to to. boot blurbs it when when the book comes. out and somebody a United Artist sees. it. Oh, and then the book becomes a. finalist for the National Book Award. One of the four finalists. Wow.

>> Okay. So, somebody a United Artist reads. the book, reads because she reads all. the finalists, reads a book, calls me. out of the blue and says, "You've got. really cinematic talent. We have you. thought about writing a script." And I. said, "No, I haven't." And I go to meet. them and they hire me and I write fist. All of that which led to my success in. the screenplay and in the cinema was. thanks to Hunter. >> Wow. >> And the friendship we had was was I.

never our friendship was in San. Francisco. He lived in in Woody Creek. Um the and he would come to town and our. friendship was in town. Um but we ran a. lot together. We enjoyed each other. We. drank um together. We both like. drinking. Um on occasion we would good. story we would go down San Francisco is. famed for its stripper part area I think. around Fereral Street and stuff and he.

and I went down there together. There. was a famous stripper show in one of. those clubs and one of the times we get. down there he of course would take acid. before every trip down there. I wouldn't. do acid, but I but I said I did acid. once and Hunter wound up holding me for. an hour. [laughter] Um the but that was. the guy from Cleveland, right? Which he. always let me know. We say you're from. [ __ ] Cleveland, you know. [laughter]. Anyway, the um I would I would snort. some lines and we go down there. Um, and.

we were waiting for about an hour and. you know the place is filled but the. girls haven't come out and Hunter. suddenly gets up, hurls his arms up in. the air and says, "Where's the [ __ ] We. want pussy." Right. [laughter]. I don't like great memories in my life, you know. Of course I settle him down. and all of that. And then when they. finally started coming very loudly. equally said finally finally [ __ ].

[laughter]. He he was a you know larger than life no. doubt colorful figure but but also what. he was and I discovered this. um and he didn't really share this with. that many people. He was very very well. read well read. Um the he had a whole. other side that was a very sensitive and. unhippy like like side. Um I I I saw it. most clearly once. Um, the I was married.

at at the time to a to a former reporter. at the plane dealer who was very very. straight and really rejected the whole. hippie thing and worked in in California. for a small suburban paper. Um, and Dun. had never met her but had heard her and. he said, "I really like to meet her." So. we asked him to dinner and Arun came to. dinner at at our small tiny apartment in.

Nevada and and and my wife at the time. um the um cooked a a Hungarian chicken. paprika dinner. Okay. It's Hungary's. most famous meal. Um and uh and he sat. there with us. And what I discovered was. that the boy from Kentucky was there. underneath all of that firepower and all. of the all of that larger than life. behavior. He was sensitive and quiet and.

and the and uh they got along like gang. busters, you know. The and actually. interestingly when when when I drove him. after dinner, I drove him back to town. Um he for the ride back he derated. berated me because I was having an. affair with what he called this hippie. chick. He said you have this wonderful. wife here and you're [ __ ] around with. this hippie chick. I mean true beration. and anger and and all of that. He had.

that side as well. Um yes he did. if we. had breakfast, it was at 4 in the. afternoon [laughter] and he he he and. and what he ordered were four. margaritas, six beers, um and maybe. maybe toast with with scrambled eggs. Um. and and in that sense, he he had more. tolerance than anyone that I'd ever. seen. And my tolerance in those days for. booze especially was also very high. Um. but but I'd never seen anybody quite.

like him. He had a great sense of humor. Um the uh the as. many many years later. um the he wanted me to write the. screenplay for Rum Diary [gasps] and I. hadn't seen him in a long time and I had. just met Naomi. of course to whom I've now been married. 32 years and and the um and and he. wanted me to go to Aspen so that we.

could talk about it. Um, and I called. you on and I said, "Listen, I head over. heels in blood with this woman." Um, you. know, and uh, Hunter wants me to go out. there, tell me the truth. What kind of. shape is he in? And yeah, sort of pauses. and he says, "Well, he's good." Um, and. then he another pause and he says, "But. you know, the Stones were in Denver and. and Mick and Keith decided to come visit. him." So, between gigs, so they they.

hire a driver and they drive up here. Um, and they they have they they have a. terrific time and but they're about. they're there about three or four hours. and they've got a gig that night. So, they say, let's say we got to go, we got. a gig, blah blah. And Hunter gets all. upset and says, well, you just got here. And they said, we've been here three or. four hours and stuff. Well, he continues. to be upset. He leaves the house for. they're sitting there and suddenly they.

hear gunshots. He had gone out and shot. the tires out on the on the on the on. the stone's car. [laughter]. So, I never took Naomi there. I was. frighten too frightened. >> What year was this? >> Well, let's see. It was in 90 something. four maybe. Maybe he said somewhere. around five, four, five and then three, three, four, five, somewhere.

>> He's been going hard for 30 years by. that point. >> Yes, he had. or at least. >> and also the the the end for him. >> I've read and heard it was very sad. because and the the sadness wasn't. caused by the drugs it was caused by. booth and he was in Deion's opinion and. he saw him often in Woody Creek and in. his former wife's opinion Sandy's. opinion it was the booth that did it be. u he you know his his body began being.

old and he needed a wheelchair. um he could hardly walk. she um drove. him into the wheelchair and at one time. I think in in New Orleans when when they. were visiting Sean Sean Penn um on a. film he actually fell out of the. wheelchair in the middle of traffic and. that she couldn't Anita couldn't really. pick him up and and so they had to get. help and cars are going by and all that. [ __ ] and then and then he also broke. broke a leg when they were visiting.

Hawaii at the Kahala. So, it's. um as he said in his suicide note, which. I thought was the most gut-wrenching and. and and but also terrific. suicide note, it was no fun anymore. The. fun was gone. Nothing was fun. No. football, no this, no that. No fun. >> Yeah. Well, when the body goes. >> Yeah. >> It's hard to have fun. >> Yeah. >> And that's the problem with booze. >> Yeah. Exactly. Well, the problem with. many drugs, but particularly the problem. with booze, you know, you're breaking.

down your body over and over and over. again. And with a guy like Hunter, he. was doing it every day. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> Yeah. >> There's a a famous um piece that this uh. reporter wrote when he went to visit. Hunter and he documented Hunter's drug. and alcohol use throughout the day. You. know, like 6:00 in the morning. >> in the hot tub with champagne, like. that's the end of the day. Yeah. and. then him sleeping and then him waking up. and doing all the drugs and then getting. ready to write. And uh what was the.

guy's name who wrote the. there's a a guy who took me and my. friend Greg Fitz Simmons reading it out. and turned it into uh an EDM song. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Eene Carol, I think. >> No, no, no. >> It says a memorial. from. >> Right. But the um but the the singer the. song. >> you said who wrote. >> Yes. The guy I'm sorry the guy who wrote. the [sighs and gasps].

>> song. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a electronic dance music song. We played it before many times. God I. can't believe it's like. >> Beardy Man. >> Beardy Man. Thank you. This guy Beardy. Man put it to music and it's hilarious. >> Got to check it out. >> It's amazing. I mean it's a tragic story. in a lot of ways but. >> but in his prime the writing that he did. was uh in many ways it was the narration.

of an era. >> Yes it was and it was genius. You know. the he there, you know, there was this. thing called the new journalism and I. practiced that and so did people like. Alys and David Alverson and and Larry El. King and but then Dun took that and. created an entire new genre that the. Gonzo journalism thing was his and it. was it was a kind of humor that that. just knocked you down. Um and it totally. revolutionary. Um and the u.

the um Tom Wolf um said who of course. was one of the people the founders of. the new journalism said that he was. today's version of Mark Twain. >> in terms of what he was able to. accomplish. Two books especially I. taught the the fear and loathing in. Vegas of course and the campaign book. the 72 campaign book which in my mind is. the best political commentary including. all of Teddy White's books. >> No it's fantastic. >> Yeah. Fear and Loathing on the campaign. trail 72 a.m. >> And he also had this freedom that was.

very different from all these other. reporters because he was a one-time guy. He was gonna go in there and follow the. campaign for the entire time and then. wrote this book about it. But Joe, these. were all stayed um the the the shoe tie. wearing reporters and you turn this this. creature loose on them on the campaign. trail and of course they all fell in. love with him and they did. >> because he was such a free spirit. compared to what their lives were to be.

like. >> Well, imagine you're doing this boring. thing which is following a bunch of. fakers as they're telling you how. they're going to change the country. which you know they're not really going. to do cuz you've been doing this for 20. years. Absolutely. >> And then along comes a guy's like, "Let's do acid. Come on, pussies." All a. sudden, you've got this [ __ ] maniac. who's drinking and and saying wild [ __ ]. and writing wild [ __ ] and he doesn't. have to be held to the same standards as. everyone else because he knows it. doesn't matter. If they never have him.

back again, it's fine. >> I'm I'm so sorry that Hunter wasn't here. with Trump's time. >> Oh my god. because that could have been. [ __ ] wild and hilarious. But there's. also a part of me that says he would. have liked Trump. I know this is heresy. to liberals, you know, who who think. that he's a, you know, that he would. have that he would absolutely hated him. and all of that, but I'm not certain of. that. And I and I and I think that that. certainly in terms of his style, um, he.

would have liked things about him. >> Well, I think he would have liked the. fact that he's this wild character. >> Absolutely. completely wild character. that has never existed in all of. presidential politics before. There's. never been anything like him. For good. or for bad, there's never been a guy. like him. >> Look what he did today. I mean, he's had. a [ __ ] fit with Netanyahu. >> Yeah. >> And he said, you know, the uh you're. [ __ ] crazy. >> Yeah. >> You would have been in jail except for. me. >> Um I saved your ass.

What other president for God's sakes has. ever spoken like that? Not only publicly. but to us, >> right? >> And in that sense, you know, I'm I'm I'm. proud of being a deplorable. I'm from. Cleveland. You know, the the the I grew. up among poor people and bluecollar. people and he's the first president um. that that didn't talk down but talk. directly to us. >> Yeah. For good or for bad. I mean. >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For good or bad. >> Yeah. I mean, [clears throat]. he's he is who he is, which is very odd,

>> you know. It's a very it's a very odd. person to be. >> I have I have I have a lot of questions. in certain areas. You know, the ice area. bothers me. The u the u the whole [ __ ]. with the ballroom and all of that stuff. >> Well, the ballroom doesn't bother me. that much. Um that's to me trivial. construction. like whatever the the ICE. stuff. >> What bothers me is we're opening the. door for militarized police on our city.

streets. As many people say like, look, we got to get these immigrants out of. here that are illegal. There's a lot of. criminals in this country. There's a lot. of people that are committing crimes. I. understand that. I understand that. perspective. My perspective is not that. you need to get the criminals out. It's. that it is a very slippery slope when. you give people and they're trained for. seven weeks. They're not trained for. very long. They're trained for much less. time than police officers, much less. time than military. >> And then you have this militar.

militarized police force that has no. identification and they're on the. streets. That's a precedent that you. might like it when it's for a cause that. you support, but that could easily be. for a cause that you do not support. That militarized police force could be. going doortodoor and confiscating guns. that militarized police force that you. could you could find other ways where a. different ruler could use this precedent. in a very damaging way for our free.

society. That's my perspective on it. >> Yeah, I agree with that. the. the the when they start calling people. like like that the woman who was killed. in in Minnesota and the the guy domestic. terrorist um you know the uh it's an. abomination and. >> which woman is uh. >> the that woman who is shot by ICE in. Minneapolis and then the guy afterwards. >> the the week afterwards was also shot by.

ICE. >> Yeah. and to call them domestic. terrorists. But to give credit to Trump, he got rid of Christine and he got rid. of that guy who was was there that Tom. Holman replaced. >> Yeah. Well, Tom Holman was already in. charge. That guy was in a different. position. Um, but they did get rid of. that guy that also that guy had a very. odd way of dressing that was very like. he he wore outfits that were like. reminiscent of like Nazi Germany. Like. he had this we very weird coat that he. would wear all the time. And a lot of. people were saying this is a very odd.

choice for someone to be wearing who's. being accused of fascism. See if you can. find some photos of that dude. The the. coats that he was wearing were a lot of. like I had to make sure that this wasn't. AI. I was like is this his real coat. that he's wearing? It's a very str I. mean not accusing him of anything. It's. just a [ __ ] coat. But it was a lot of. people online were pointing out like. this is a very odd wardrobe choice for. someone who's in charge of uh in many. ways othering human beings.

>> Yeah. >> The other thing that's a problem with. this whole ICE thing is and it's not the. fault of the ICE people or even this. administration is that many of these. people were encouraged to come here. That's what's so [ __ ] Imagine if. you're living in Guatemala. >> and you're encouraged to come to. America. You live in a terrible third. world situation. You have a wherever. you're living is like deep poverty. You're told that they'll help you get. across the border. They'll they'll. literally transport you into America. They'll put you in these cities and you.

can get on public assistance. If you. have a bad back, they'll put you on. social security. There's all these. different programs that are. incentivizing people to come to America. The Red Cross is giving you maps. People. are showing you how to do it. They're. letting you across the border. They're. letting you into the country. And then. two years later, you're being chased. down. Two years later, you've got masked. ICE workers that are pulling. I mean, it's like it's very inconsistent. Obviously, this is a completely.

different administration, but I feel for. those poor [ __ ] people that were told. that they can come here and that there. was going to be a pathway to. citizenship. So, they upend their life. They come to America in the only way. they know how. And when people say, "Oh, they should do it legitimately." Sure, a. lot of people do it legitimately, and I. understand their perspective that it's a. very difficult path, and no one should. be able to cut that line, and they went. through it the right way. However, these. people, that's not an option for them. If you don't have any money and you're. living in a third world country, and.

people encourage you to come to America, I most certainly would have come to. America just like they did, >> Joe. I did. My parents did. You know, I. I personify the American dream in terms. of what happened to me. You know, the. the what they said in the campus was the. streets of America are paved with gold. And when when we lived on Lraine Avenue. in Cleveland, there was a there was a. Hungarian poet, a mad poet, his name was. Aimra, who would would go up and down.

Lraine Avenue screaming in Hungarian one. old one, which means where is it? >> Where is the gold? Right. >> Right. Right. Right. Um, but look, I I. came in here as a as a kid. I couldn't. speak the language. We knew no one. Um, the I got into serious juvenile trouble. The the I got out of that. I I I. studied. I was a total autodidact. I did. wasn't a good student, but I did. reading. Um, the uh the I went to I went.

to college. Um the the u I had I did I. wanted to be a disc jockey for a while. and named Joe Anthony. because a song to. sue the sad serpent secretary, right? This kind of [ __ ] Um the went to. college. I did well in college. Um I won. a big award as a senior. Um the the um I. I I kept working and I' been and I also. through the years got a terrific amount.

of help from Americans. Couldn't have. done it without him. beginning with a. with a bus driver named named Henry. Jackson, a black man who had been. adopted by Hungarian parents and spoke. Hungarian. But, you know, moving on to. people in in college who helped who I. found a great deal of help. I couldn't. have done what I achieved without the. help um of of other people and other.

Americans. Um and the and then then to. top everything off, you know, the uh. Hollywood and 18 films and all of that. Um. yes, I think that is the personification. of the American dream and and and the. the immigrants who come here are looking. for the same dream and many of them are. saying what Matt Aima said on Lorraine. Avenue, old one, old one, where is it? >> Right. >> Yeah. Part of the reason that the that the.

stuff in Minneapolis breaks breaks my. heart is be I is that I these are are. the these Latino people are my cousins. and brothers in terms of not the the. killers and not the gang members. The. people who are gardeners and who work in. stores and trying to make a buck and. have kids and that that they're trying. to survive. >> Well, it's also part of the ice story, too. Absolutely. Part of the ice story. is that a lot of these officers are.

Latino, including the two guys that shot. Alex Prey. >> Those two guys were Latino and they took. these jobs because these jobs give you, first of all, you get a $50,000 signing. bonus to join ICE. >> I mean, that's a significant amount of. money for someone who's in debt or who's. struggling. >> So, this is how this guy dressed. Look. how this guy dressed. >> That's kind of crazy. See that image? >> That's a goat. Yeah. Yeah. Look at that. coat. >> Yeah. >> I mean, come on. That's a It's kind of a.

crazy World War II military coat. >> It's amazing. >> A little odd when everybody else is, you. know. >> The other thing is the masks. I. understand. I understand the need for. them that they get doxed, their families. get doxed, and it's very organized. This. is not organic. These protests are not. organic. I understand all these. arguments. [sighs]. >> I'm not bothered by the master. Like to me that's. >> it's also it sets a very bad precedent. Yeah. This is the problem with it all.

But you know the real thing is you. shouldn't be able to have organized paid. for protest where you're paying people. to protest and you're paying people to. cause violence. And then you're also. using people as political pawns and. moving them into the country so that you. could change like when when you have. congressional seats it's all based on. the census. the more people that are in. the town, regardless of whether or not. they're legal or illegal, you get more. congressional seats. So, they use them. for political polls. >> Yes, they do. Absolutely. Same old.

political game. >> Yes. The same old game. And that game. should be illegal. That that shouldn't. be legal. The idea [clears throat] of. the American dream is a beautiful dream. and they've corrupted it and they've. they've taken this and used it for their. own gain. And, you know, and they've. weaponized empathy and it's it's a real. problem. It's a real problem for those. poor people that came over here looking. for a better life. >> Listen, I have an idea. Run for. president or write your speeches. >> Listen, >> no, that attitude is really terrific,

Adam. That I think you're right to be. concerned. You see it. >> Yeah. >> Um, listen, I'm 81 years old, but I. really see it too, you know, and and. great dangers there that I hope my sons. don't have. militarized police on the. streets for that reason is a it's a very. dangerous precedent. But then there's. the other question is like how do you. get all the criminals out? I don't know. I'm not the guy, you know, I'm not the. one. But I'm I am. >> very concerned with this this dangerous. precedent. That's my feeling on it.

>> So I just worry that people accept it. because they want this result now. >> and they don't realize that this could. set up. >> this being a common occurrence. I mean, we saw some of it during CO. There was. some militarized police on the streets. keeping people in lockdown in certain. cities. They utilized the National Guard. and they they did things like that. It's. that scares the [ __ ] out of me. Scares. the [ __ ] out of me when you you have a. justification for militarized police. with masks on that are just grabbing.

people. And some of these people are. American citizens. It turned out a lot. of them were American citiz hundreds of. them were. >> You know, we had the same syndrome. My I. covered the Kent State massacres. I. covered that. >> and the one of the things that I saw is. the rhetoric that was coming from James. Rhodess, >> the governor at the time, and from. Sylvester Del Corso, who was the head of. the National Guard was absolutely the. main thing that that created that. atmosphere that that caused that. shooting. >> Yeah, absolutely.

the and. >> today just sadly we see many examples of. that and you know they're great dangers. you know. >> yeah you would think that we would learn. but we go through cycles where we learn. we get better and then we repeat the. same things again you see that with. racial tensions you see that with. political unrest you see that with a lot. of different things in this country. >> it's like we we learn. >> for a little while and then we forget. >> Mark Twain's wisdom once again comes. through Martin Twain said, "Politicians.

are like diapers and they should be. changed often and for the same reason.". >> Yeah. He also said, "History doesn't. repeat itself, but it also it often. rhymes.". >> Yeah. >> He also said a little bit off top of the. subject, but I love him. He said the he. said, "When the mind and the pecker. argue, the pecker always wins.". [laughter]. >> Yeah. I mean, he was essentially the. original stand-up comedian.

>> Oh, you're absolutely right. I You're so. right. I I've actually been thinking. about doing some piece on him. The I. mean, and stab me if you know the. history. The but but in the beginning, he was a standup with his so-called. lectures that he did all over the West. and then then he did this then he wrote. some books, the books that he's famous. for, but he went bankrupt nearly at the. end of his life because of bad. investments. And then he did a round the. world tour of standup all over again.

And usually they said he was a a um a. poet of the profane because these are. usually for male audiences. He published. a little book called on masturbation. which is about the glories of. masturbation. >> [laughter]. >> The only thing I've heard that's that's. close is a is a is in descendant by one. Joe Rogan which there's a great line. that says if you're married and have. kids the only the only place to find.

peace. would say with the pecker that is if you. rent a motel room and lock the door you. know but he had the same kind of of of. verve and love. in terms of being a standup, being. outrageous, pushing the envelope. Um, and that that whole side of Twain has. been sort of hidden under the notion. that he is the great Huck Finn and Tom.

Sawyer and all of that. Nobody talks of. he wrote a book called Letters from the. Earth from from the Voice of the Devil. He wrote another one called The. Mysterious Stranger, which is about. Jesus coming back in a very dark way. And then he wrote one that was published. in the 30s that hasn't been republished. called Dwayne Erupts. Um, you know, so. yes, you're so right when you say he. would stand up. He was a first straight. standup. >> He was the originator because he was. essentially a very witty.

>> Yes. author who wrote very provocative. things, very hilarious things and then. would read them publicly, >> right? >> And when he was doing these speeches. where he would go and, you know, whether. you call it poetry or whatever it was, there was no standup comedy back then. There was no name for it. Yes. >> But he was just riotously funny. People. loved them and they would go to see them. because they were funny. >> And the the initial audiences were. mostly male audiences, >> right? Um the uh.

yeah I think he's a great it's never. been really done the the the uh to do a. piece a fictional piece about Dwayne um. as a as a standup with pushing the. envelope with all these things I think. would be a lot of fun. >> It would be a lot of fun. The only. problem would be like the cultural. context are so different back then. And. it's almost like um did you see Lenny. the Dustin Hoffman film? Great film. I. mean I think Dustin Hoffman [ __ ].

nailed it. It was as close to Lenny. Bruce as you're you're ever going to see. someone portray Lenny Bruce. The problem. is the world has changed so much since. 1960, right? >> That a lot of the outrageousness has. gone and it seems very pedestrian. Like. the things that he was saying because he. was such a groundbreaker and society was. so locked down and and and so. conservative and so you know just that. there was just the way people. communicated was much different back. then. the understanding of culture and.

of uh race relations and sexual. relations was very different back then. And so the outrageousness of what he was. saying back then, it just doesn't really. translate because in many ways I think. standup comedy in particular is a window. in time. It's a window into the the the. way people behave. Films are that way as. well. Like especially like if you go and. watch a lot of old films, it's a window. into how people perceived reality back. then.

the. there's there's some stuff that that's. rarely been published from Twain that. that that hasn't really been seen very. much that was left in places like the. University of California archives that. that go a step past what we know from. Twain and uh and I think there's so much. of it there's something called Twain's. notebooks that that hasn't been. published um in their full form. certainly. um that that may still be shocking. Um.

the um and I mean I'm still playing with. it because I'm reading and reading and. all of that, but even if I never do, it's so much fun reading about him and. his life because he was such an. interesting character. >> Well, I hope you do write something. about it because it would be great for. people to see and to get an. understanding of him because I think a. lot of young people, particularly today, just think of him as an author. Just. think of him as the guy who wrote Tom. Sawyer. >> Tom Sawyer, right? He's been he's been. pushed into being almost a kids writer.

>> Right. >> Speaking of standup, I want you to know. and I don't think you know. Did you know. that Sam Kenisonson dedicated a CD to. me? >> Did he really? >> Sam Kenisonson one of his one of his um. last CDs was called Leader of the Band. BN D, >> right? >> And at the flip side of the CD, he. thanks a bunch of people off and record. people and all of that. and then also. Sly and Sean Penn. And then after all of.

that in larger letters than the others, he says, "And a very special thanks to. Joe Esther writing his letter to Michael. Oitz.". >> That's amazing. >> Amazing. >> What letter did you write to Michael. Oitz? Uh, Michael was the was the top. top dog um, agent in town running CIA. And the and I was leaving CIA because my. best friend and rabbi in the business.

was an agent named Guy Mawin who had. been running Colombia became an agent. again. So I I I was leaving CIA simply. because of my love for guy. And I went. in to see Oitz and said, "I'm leaving. the agency." And oit said, "Um, if you. leave the agency, then my foot soldiers. who go up and down Wilshire Boulevard, we'll put you under the ground.". >> Oh, Jesus. >> What the [ __ ]. >> You know, so the I thought about it for. a couple weeks and I.

>> Jesus. >> And I and I wrote him a letter which. essentially said, "Fuck you. You know, I'm leaving. I'm going back to the. person who started me in the business. and the person I love and it turned into. a major controversy with headlines all. over the place and all. >> put you under the ground of strong. words. >> Oh man, there's a there was a producer. named Bernie Brilstein. >> I know Bernie. >> He did too. He wrote memoir. >> um late years later who said those exact. words had been used to him as well. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. So the uh and you know what and as. time went on it became obvious that that. that the whole controversy with really. hurt him um be because u other people. had been threatened that way and he had. a reputation for that and he and he. actually um was out of the business not. not not much past that but but the. notion of Kinson I love Kinson's work. the notion of Kinison when I saw that. thing I was overwhelmed.

He was one of the greats. >> He was one of the greats. Absolutely. >> One of the greats. And I I still. maintain that for like a period of two. years, two or three years, he was the. most profound and revolutionary stand-up. comic ever. >> I agree. I agree. >> He came out of nowhere. He was so. different than anybody else. You know, I. was introduced uh to Kenisonson by a. girl that I work with. I was working at. a um a gym called the uh Boston Athletic. Club in South Boston and it was a girl. that worked at the front counter who was. hilarious. She was a volleyball player,

really hilarious girl. And she told me. about Kenisonson and reenacted one of. his bits in the parking lot of the club. Told me what she saw on TV about he had. that bit about uh homosexual necriliacs. paying money. >> She's on her stomach laying on the She. was so funny. She was on her stomach in. the parking LOT GOING, "OH, OH, LIFE. KEEPS [ __ ] IN THE ASS, EVEN AFTER. YOU'RE DEAD. IT NEVER ENDS. IT NEVER. ENDS." AND I was laughing so hard that I.

couldn't wait to go out and get. [clears throat] that videape. And I got. that videape and I was only 19 at the. time. I had never even thought about. doing standup yet, but that was like one. of the first times that I was like, "Oh, this is standup." Like, I didn't know. that this was standup. I thought standup. was like, "Did you ever notice?" like. that kind of stuff like that you'd see. on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. I had no thought ever that this wild. [ __ ] was standup and you know, credit to. HBO because before then you would never.

be able to see that kind of comedy. The. only way you'd be able to see it is in. the movie theater. It'd have to be like. Richard Prior Live on the Sunset Strip, which predated that by a few years. And. no one had any understanding that there. was this kind of stand-up comedy out. there that this wild [ __ ] who. used to be a priest, he used to be a. preacher. >> Yeah, I know. Yeah. >> And he he comes to LA and is this wild. coke snorton [ __ ] demon comedian.

who's just different than anybody else. before him. >> and just changed comedy. There's a few. people there's a few characters along. the way that have just completely. changed comedy and I think Kennedy. Kenisonson is one of the big ones. >> He was absolutely amazing. Um I I I. adored him. I I thought he was a. groundbreaker and when I saw the CD CD, Holy [ __ ]. >> I have uh two of his albums. Two. different people have gifted me um his. uh first album. God, what is it called?

It's not is it called Louder Than Hell? I think it's called Louder Than Hell. And uh they're signed. Both albums are. signed. Both signatures are totally. different. So I don't know which one's. real or if either one of them are real. And that's the problem. Like people buy. stuff off eBay. They want to give you a. nice gift. They buy an autographed album. and it might not even be real. >> He was a preacher and. that last conversation when he died with. Jesus when he's conversing, it's.

mindboggling. >> Yeah. He's having literally having a. conversation with someone. >> Yes, he is. >> As he's dying. >> Yeah, >> it's obviously Jesus. It's a Jesus. figure. I mean, it's a is it my time? I. mean, all. >> right. Right. >> Amazing. Especially amazing considering. where he came from, what what what he. went through, what he did with comedy. and then then that ending. >> Yeah, >> there was a movie made, wasn't there? But it wasn't very good. I don't. remember. >> about Kenisonson. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> I think I was a while for a while. I was. thinking about that, too. would make me.

>> I have a problem with reenactments of a. guy who is that profound like someone's. playing them, you know? It's like it's. >> I agree. >> I try not to watch cuz it's just the the. actual work of the guy like going back. and watching his HBO special and. watching his standup appearances on. Letterman and listening to his his first. album. The first album I listened to it, I was like, Jesus Christ, this guy's. incredible. It was just so different, so. crazy. And you know, and he was the.

first guy that was like open about doing. cocaine, like open about partying, you know. I mean, he was uh he was a. wild boy. It reminds me, I'm sorry, Hunter, terms. of being wild to buy coke. My first. story when I was at Rolling Stone was. was. a piece about narcotics, corrupt. narcotics agents. And as a result of the. the stories, the guy who was the head of. the narcotics agency in the state of. California had to resign. And as a.

result of that, um, I started getting. plastic baggies full of coke at Rolling. Stone from the various dealers who. appreciated my work. [laughter]. Now, whenever Hunter was there, I would. present him with the bag and he would. go, "Holy [ __ ] Christ, you're getting. these from people." So, one of the. things that solidified our friend. offensive. >> That's hilarious. >> Is that a handed over. >> and that was back when cocaine was. actually cocaine. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> It wasn't stepped on. You didn't get. fentinyl. You didn't have to worry about. dying of an overdose. >> It was the only drug drug besides. besides smoking dope that that I really. really enjoyed. I I said I tried acid. once and had to hold on to me because I. was so freaked out. >> [laughter]. >> I can only imagine when I watch showg. girls I was like whoever wrote this was. doing coke [laughter]. like literally one of the first things. I've said I've always said that's like. one of the heightens of cocaine movies. >> not anymore but but certainly the memory.

of it was. >> influenced absolutely. >> influenced by cocaine. >> the uh [laughter]. Tarantino also really loved loved loved. show girls. >> it was a wild movie and I remember, you. know, because it was that girl, what's. her name? Elizabeth. >> Berkeley. >> Berkeley. Elizabeth Berkeley who was. from Saved by the Bell, right? So, she. was like this America sweetheart from. this really nice sitcom and then all of. a sudden, you know, she's half naked and. she's a showgirl and it's like, whoa.

>> And and she's having an affair with. Bulver Hovven, right? >> He's moved out with his wife and is. living with Elizabeth Berkeley right. now. So. >> crazy. >> I know. Crazy. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. Geez Louise. Wild times, right? >> Absolutely fun. Really fun. Um, Jimmyi Hendris story because he's the. Jimmyi Hendris experience and I wondered. whether he had any kind of a Godfather. impact on on the Joe Rogan experience. >> Oh, 100%. I stole the name from Jimmyi.

Hendricks. >> Jimmyi Hendris story. >> 100%. I mean, when we first started. doing the podcast, that was I would. always listen to Voodoo Child on the way. to the comedy store. I listen coming. over Laurel Canyon. That was one of my. favorite. That and Whole Lot of Love. Those were my two favorite songs to. listen to on the way to the Comedy. Store. I had like a soundtrack that I. listened to to get myself psyched up for. shows. >> You'll love this story then. Okay. I'm a. reporter at the plane dealer and the all. of our editors barely know about rock. and roll. And as I said, I've loved it.

all my life. And when Vandrix came. around, I I loved his work. And he's in. Cleveland. for an appearance. and the [ __ ]. Cleveland cops have gone crazy and. they're saying that this caused a riot. and it's obscene and all of that stuff. And I ask go up to my city editor and. ask tell him I'd like to interview. Hendricks and cover his concert. So I do. cover his concert and it's jammed and in. Cleveland arena and people are loving it. and I've set up a date to inter to.

interview him the next morning at the. Cleveland Hotel. Okay. So, um, the I show up the next. morning and I am the plane dealer. reporter. I've got a tie on and a sport. coat, you know, and and, uh, and they go. in, I think it's 9:30. The um, and he's. up, but he's barely up and he's he's. wearing shorts and a t-shirt and his. hair is, you remember his hair, but on. this occasion there was a lot of beads. and things in his hair as well, and it's. totally scruffed up. Um the um and we.

talk about rock and roll mostly and his. background and the fact that he had been. I think as a backup as a as a kind of. guitarist in a Ricky Nelson band that. had been in Cleveland a couple years. before then he he done this pre- stuff. before he went out on his own and u and. we get along um and uh we begin smoking. dope of course at 9:30 and by [ __ ]. 11:30 we both got the munchies and he. said man I'm hungry you know, you got.

any you want to go to any place? I've. got a car waiting for me downstairs. [sighs and gasps] So, I said, "Sure.". And um and we go down and then Mitch. Mitchell and Chaz Chandler join us, the. other members of the experience. Um who. are equally. looking like CD characters, you know, but it's that time of morning, it's. after concert, all of that. So we pile. into this limbo and I direct them to go. to um Buckeye Road is the center of the. Hungarian community in Cleveland and the.

center of the Hungarian community on. Buckeye Road is a restaurant called the. Bolaton. Okay. And I direct them to go. to the Bolaton. Now they know me at the. Bolaton because I used to live on. Buckeye Road. The big stretch limo pulls. up, play glass window front filled with. old ladies with babushkas and guys very. formally dressed. We get out in front of. this place and these Martians, three. Martians get out of the car [laughter]. and I lead them in and I'm looking I'm.

like, "What the [ __ ] What is this?" You. know, they made me the um. they're just following me in and I I see. Jimmy looking around and [ __ ] So they. seat us. The major D know knows me. So. he calls me aside and he says, "Who are. these people? What who are these. people?" I say, "Jimmy Hendricks, big. rock and roll star, you know, he's in. town." And and he said, "Oh." And. Hendrick says, "Yeah, Jimmy Hendris.". Okay. So we sit down and and Jimmy says, "You order for me." Great. So I order a.

chicken paprika for him, which is the. big Hungarian meal. Um and and Chaz and. Mitchell order something else but but. very Hungarian stuff on my advice. Um. and the the interestingly as we're. sitting there. the matraee has obviously spoken to. people because old ladies are coming. around asking him for an autograph. >> Wow. >> And he's gracious. Sure. and um the but.

he loves his paprikos and wants to order. another. At this point, we've knocked out two. bottles of wine, I think, and we're. still rolling for all the dope. Um so, they bring that at the end of this. He. he had three um orders of chicken. paprika. He signed we had like four. bottles of wine. We staggered out of. there. Um the he signed I would guess 10. autographs where people would come.

around bowing. [gasps]. And then as we walk out of the. restaurant he sticks his fist high up in. there and says hungry hungry. [laughter]. That's my Jimmy Hendrix story. >> That's awesome. Ron White was telling us. a story the other night in the. mothership green room, the comedy club. green room. And he was saying that when. he was, I think he said he was 13 years. old, he went to see the monkeys. >> and Jimmyi Hendris opened for the. Monkeys. He said it was the worst. booking of all time. You've got.

>> open. Oh my god. >> Exactly. So this is when Jimmyi Hendris. was emerging. He really hadn't become. Jimmyi Hendris yet. >> And so he's the opening act for the. Monkeys. And so you have a bunch of kids. that are there to see this really cute. band that was, you know, pieced together. by corporate executives essentially. You. know, the Monkeys, fun band, but you. know, they had a TV show and it was very. clean, sweet TV show. Hey, the monkeys, you know, and then you've got this guy.

opening up for them this just jamming on. the guitar. And they were freaked out. They were like, "What is this?" Like, "What is going on?" And he said nobody. liked it. They were it was terrifying to. people. Like who is this guy with his. guitar? Like what the hell is he doing? >> Great story. The the many years later I. thought about writing a Hendricks movie. and working with a producer friend named. Ben and Ben rounded up his brother. Um.

and u and we actually brought him to. Malibu and we unfortunately the we. discovered that the rights were so. screwed up in between relatives that. there's never been a Jimmyi Hendris. movie made because people couldn't agree. on on the deal of any kind but it still. would be a terrific movie I think you. know. >> oh it' be a phenomenal movie how there I. believe there was at least one. >> Jimmy. docu drama wasn't there Jimmy. >> I believe do [clears throat] you. remember it.

>> Yeah, it was Andre 3000 from Outcasts, >> but they'd like couldn't really use all. the music and stuff, I think. >> Oh, >> I'm sorry. I didn't hear Jamie. >> He said it was Andre 3000 from Outcast. >> I see. >> And uh that they couldn't use all the. music. >> I see. >> I think I Yeah, it came out 10 even like. 10 years. >> That was an issue back then, too. I. remember that. Yeah. >> Here's a picture of him as [snorts]. >> That's right, >> Jimmy. >> That's right. Wow. Also, that the day.

after you're talking about in Cleveland, there's a recording of the concert. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, [ __ ] That's my Facebook. >> Is that right? The Cleveland concert. >> Yeah. There's a I got a few different. links. It kept taking me to Facebook, but there's a bunch of pictures. >> Whoa. >> March 26, 1968. >> Wow. >> Then there's a recording of the concert, too. >> So, you can listen to the recording from. the concert. >> I was trying to get in here. There's. like there's an article from. >> his legendary trip to Cleveland. Wow. >> But this was like paid wall inside. I.

couldn't get all the stuff behind it. >> Wow, man. >> He was the nicest guy. >> I can imagine. >> Yeah. Very nice. Nice guy. Just laid. back. >> Wow. He was just insane. One of a. not not even one of a generation. One. one of one talent. I mean, to this day, if you ask most guitarists, who's the. greatest guitarist of all time? It's Jim. >> Hendris. >> That's crazy. That one guy who died at. 27 years old and would he die in 1969 or.

1970. >> Yeah. Somewhere there. Yeah. >> That that guy to this day is universally. regarded as the greatest guitarist of. all time. >> You know, I interviewed him. I was known. as the grim reaper at the plane dealer. because I interviewed Hendrickx, um, Janice Joplin, Jim Morrison, and, uh, Otis, and they all died. They. all died young, you know. I did I did a. feature on Jose Feliciano. >> and people would come up to me at the.

blame dealer and say, "What do you have. against Jose? Why do you want him to. die?". [laughter]. >> That's crazy. It's It's just unfortunate. that they all die. And they all died at. 27 years old, which is really. >> Was that right? I didn't Hris, Joplain, and Morrison all died at 27. >> And um. >> who else? >> Kurt Cobain. Um Amy Winehouse. >> at 27. Yeah, it's all 27. 27 is the. magic number for insanely talented. people to die young.

>> Yeah. Very weird. You've had an incredible life, man. >> I', you know, I've been blessed. The. I've been really blessed. First of all, the fact that I'm still here at 81, considering some of my excesses in the. past is miraculous. Truly is. I started. smoking when I was 13. >> Whoa. stopped when I was 60. >> Wow. >> Right. Um then I had the stage four. cancer and and the martial surgery saved.

me. Um the you know the I drank too hard. most of my life until I was 70. Um and I. finally stopped then. Um the um only. because I have a hard-headed Italian. Polish wife who said enough. You're. falling down. You're taking 12 pills and. you're falling down. No [ __ ] more. Okay. Ended it. Now, shortly after we. were married, after literally after we exchanged the.

vows, she turned to me and she says, she. whispers. She says, "If you cheat on me, I'm going to [ __ ] hunt you down and. kill you." Okay. [laughter]. I listen to her. I I listen to her. I. listen to this woman, you know. So, >> sounds like a fun lady. She is. She is. And she's um I'm very proud of her. because at at 67. um the mother of four and truly the the.

true head of our family, she's writing. her first she's written her first novel. >> Wow. >> Which is called um Dark Church. And it's. set in in Dracula's Transylvania. >> Whoa. And it's a a kind of um of Gothic. um thriller. Um the um and um the I I. bring it up because I promised her that. I would make this plug and I fear that.

if I don't, I'm going to be in a lot of. talking trouble. So, [laughter] thank. you very much, Joey. >> I love that when someone does something. like [clears throat] that, when they're. in their 60s, just say, "Fuck it.". something I've always wanted to do. Let's do it. I think it's fantastic. >> Thank you. >> I I just love when people do like [ __ ]. your age. Who cares? Just put it out. Write it. >> I agree. >> Yeah. >> But I have lived I lived an amazing life. and I and and I I'm very thankful. Um.

the uh [snorts] um I've seen a lot um. the and I've come out on the other side. I've seen a lot of darkness, too. Um but. when it's all over, Graham Green, who's. a who's a writer that I admire, died I. think in his late 70s. Um and he said um. we get to a point where we see the. fence. The fence is there, but we can't. see over the fence. But the closer we. get to the fence, the more curious we. are about what's on the other side of.

the fence. And there are some people who. just decide that they're too curious. People like Hunter and jump over the. fence, right? I'm not doing that, but. but I'm approaching the fence and. >> but I've lived a terrific life and only. once again only in America, you know, really America. >> Yeah, only in America. Well, I'm I'm. glad you're not jumping over the fence. because I'm glad we got a chance to. talk. >> Although I really did admire his note, [laughter]. >> the no more fun note. It should be.

should be classic. >> Yeah. Well, I mean that's how he lived. and at the end of his life obviously it. was not fun. >> No. No. Yeah. >> But Twain when I keep going back to. Twain. >> This is a this is a good one. I think he. he said um the orgasm. is God's own payback for all the. suffering that he overlooks in the. world. [laughter]. >> That's funny. >> Good. Well, it's like writers in. particular are they're they're so.

important to culture because they can. put down thoughts in a way that reshapes. the way people view things. You know, we. we talked about Hunter in the 60s and. the 70s. He was the voice of that. generation. like he was the guy that was. this intelligent guy that wasn't a part. of the elite establishment that wasn't a. part of the rich fat cats. >> but was also famous and wellknown but. stuck true to his thoughts and his. beliefs and was able to articulate.

things in a way that gave you this. understanding of what was going on with. the people back then to that to this day. if you read Fear and Loathing on the. campaign trail or if you read read Fear. and Loathing in Las Vegas or you know. any of his work you know the Kentucky. Dave uh Derby is decadent and depraved. like. >> it's just a phenomenal encapsulation of. that. >> even even something. agree it's like it's so important it's. um and we don't have a lot of that today. unfortunately you know you got a lot of.

podcasters and a lot of you know people. making YouTube videos and Tik Toks and. not a lot of like great writing that. encapsulates things where there's like. one figure that we turn to to read their. stuff on things and Hunter was that guy. >> Yes, he was the um as Hemingway was sort. of previous generation. >> You know, Hunter and I talked a lot. about Hemingway. >> Yeah. >> Because of of our backgrounds and. earning a living and and all of that. Um. and I think that the fact that Hunter.

ended it as he did was was was sort of. thought out many many years before and. probably through Hemingway's example. >> inspired by Hemingway. Yeah. Unfortunately, that's how he did it, too. >> Yeah. >> And they both shared in common that they. drank to excess. >> Absolutely. But, you know, when I when I. was a boy, um, wanting to be a and I. wanted to be a novelist and not a. screenwriter, I was a boy, the Holy. Trinity were Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and. Falner. They all died of alcoholism.

[clears throat]. >> Hemingway shot himself, Fitzgerald had a. had a heart attack at a very young age. while working as a hack Hollywood. screenwriter, incidentally. and Faulner. fell off a horse, I think, in his early. 70s. Rip, ripped, totally drunk. >> Um, and these were the idols of young. people coming up then, you know. >> What do you think it is about alcohol. and writing that go hand and glove? >> The the u. I I for a while I drank all day black.

coffee and a cognac. Um the uh. and then then later on in life um the I. didn't have my first drink until noon. [sighs and gasps] and what they make way. was 11:00 um and uh and I measured it. until at night and and then it was gin. um before it was white wine. Um, and. part of it is that if you're lost in in.

this imaginary world that's in your head. all day, you can't get rid of it. You. can't make it stop. And and the booze. makes it stop. So that you could. continue your normal familial daily. obligations and schedules without having. this this stuff in your head all the. time trying to crowd it out. The fact. that sometimes, excuse me, the fact that sometimes I.

wake up in the middle of the night and. take notes of of something that the. character says or something indicates. that I can't get rid of it. With the. booze, when I was drinking, if I drank. enough, I could get rid of it and begin. it again the next day. It's partly. freeing yourself. It's an interesting. point. It's partly freeing yourself from. something that you've created yourself. So that in that sense you create. something that that that can hurt you.

even if you created my greatest. enjoyment with what with writing. screenplays. I mean it gives me a. terrific amount of pleasure is knowing. that it's going to take when people see. this it's going to make their own lives. more pleasant for at least two hours. They will enjoy it. They may they may. laugh at it but it will take them out of. their own existences in a pleasant way. That ain't bad to to be able to do that. with people. It's huge and and that's. very important to me. >> People think of it as trivial that.

entertainment is trivial. I don't think. it is at all. I mean, it shapes our. perceptions of the world. >> Exactly. You do the exact same thing. You make people's lives better by. enjoying what they're watching. And. that's that's it. That that is not as. important or as dramatic as my. daughter-in-law, for example, who just. got her medical degree who literally. literally saves people's lives. Um the. um incidentally, it's a classic Hollywood story. I think. Alyssa,

Alyssa Esther works in um in Texas in a. hospital. Um and she just got her. medical degree. Um, but to show the. influence that Hollywood has on our. culture, the other day she walks into a. room and there's a gigantic big guy. there who's yelling and screaming. You. know, this is the sweetest person in the. world and u and has this wonderful smile. and really is great with people and. she's trying to calm him down and she. says, "What's wrong? What's wrong?" And.

she describes him as a really big man. and is screaming and what's wrong? What's wrong? And he he yells, "I want. Brad Pitt." It's [ __ ] in Texas, you. know, some hospital. And she says, "You. want Brad Pitt?" He says, "I want. [ __ ] back Brad Pitt." He said, "But. why? Why do you want Brad Pitt?" He. goes, [clears throat] "Because I want to. [ __ ] him." [laughter].

Now, this sweet woman, >> that's hilarious. doctor confronted him. with this mad man. want to [ __ ] Brad P. [laughter]. One more example eight of the powerful. effect of the culture on us. >> So when I write something I don't want. some guy say to read to see it and say. the result I want Brad Pit nor do I want. Vladimir Zinsky to start a [ __ ] war. >> Right. >> But I do want people to enjoy it. >> Right. That's hilarious when you see.

like when you say that uh the alcohol. silences the voices. I always thought of. it as the other. I thought of it as like. alcohol releases people from their. inhibitions and allows them to tap into. this voice sometimes. >> I take that happens with some writers, but it never been my problem. The uh. there's something about going into. little room wherever you are. And you. don't have to be in Hollywood. You can. be anywhere. There's as long as there's. a little room in the house you can. escape to. and and sit there quietly and make [ __ ].

up. Um that that that you that you think. will that people will enjoy. As long as. that's there, that's that's all I that's. all I really need. You know, the uh now. occasionally I will play music without. stop on certain scripts. It was the same. way with with Leonard Cole. I listen to. him a lot. And Dylan, of course, I did a. movie with Dylan, you know. Um the uh. which was also funny experience. the um. [clears throat] but sometimes it's. music. It's not coke anymore. It's not.

it's not cognac anymore with coffee. Um. the I drank so much coffee that finally. one day we had to call an ambulance. because I thought I was having a heart. attack on [laughter]. become allergic to it. >> It was just caffeine. >> Ambulance caffeine. Ambulance is driving. me down to Marine General and there's a. traffic jam. There's construction, right? And they think I'm having a heart. attack. And I jump out of the ambulance. and I run up to the guy with the heart. hat. And I never forget it. Says, "Brink.

her off." His name is Brinkerov. And I'm. yelling at him. I'm having a heart. attack, you [ __ ] Get these guys. out of the way. I'm dying. Of course. Oh. my god. It's worse than the guy who. wants to [ __ ] Brad Pitt. [laughter]. Get it. Gets out of the way. >> Well, the crazy thing is just coffee. after all the coke and all the other. craziness. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, even that got So, I. had to stop. I stopped the coffee as. well. Um the. the years after I stopped it, um I was. in New York and I ordered a decaf.

espresso. There wasn't decap and I was. up for two and a half days without being. asleep. So obviously my system got. totally totally screwed up. >> But got reset. Yeah. You lost your. tolerance for it. >> But the um by I never had it never I. never felt it inspired me. Now the the. with basic instinct riding it um the um. in the sun in the Hawaiian sun you know. and of course all through all of this it.

was non-stop smoking you know I mean two. pack a day smoking beginning with lies. and marls and moving out to go was and. occasionally cigars and pipe and all. this [ __ ] um the the but so I did do. that but I never felt that the that pic. the coke was inspirational. It was an enjoy. It was enjoyable and it. was [ __ ] dynamite sexually, you know. So, and that also comes in handy, >> but it wasn't what fueled your writing.

No, I never felt that it did. Recreational. It was recreational, >> but nicotine did. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. That's, you know, that's also. Stephen King said that that when he. stopped smoking was one of the most. difficult things that he ever quit. like. quitting the booze and quitting coke and. all that stuff was one thing, but. quitting cigarettes, he said he really. noticed the difference in his writing. >> Well, the the uh yeah, I went through. that and I was warned after after my. cancer surgery by this army surgeon that. I like so much that if you smoke or.

drink, you're dead. You know, you're. dead. Understand that. and and and um so. I took it seriously. The the uh the. drinking my idea of not drinking at that. point was switching from tangoray to. white wine and of course [laughter]. that got out of hand after a while too. [gasps and sighs] until Naomi jumped. into the whole prey, you know. So, >> and now you're completely clean. >> Totally. I've been completely clean. >> Did this all line up with your.

conversion to Christianity? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I I I I needed. Jesus of Nazareth's help seriously to be. able to do all that. Um the um and and. and I did a lot of praying. But I still. believe in prayer and I I believe in. worship with a group of people. There's. a special kind of inspirational thing. that I feel [sighs]. >> Yeah. No, I agree with you. I think. there's something about all those people. collected together. >> Yeah. that it's just like when you go to.

a concert and you feel the music with. all the people that are enjoying the. music. There's a similar thing that. happens at a church. >> Very similar. Absolutely. >> We we're meant to be together. You know, we are tribal people and we're meant to. be together. And there's something about. groups of people together, especially in. a positive way that unite us and connect. us in a way that it's very profound. It's it's different than anything else. It's different than watching it on a. screen. There's something about being in. the presence of other people that are. doing the same thing. Yeah, it's you can feel a vibe.

>> Yeah. >> Um and and the vibe is it goes deep and. it's really inspirational and when it's. really working um I feel almost. transported. I'm on a different level, you know, and I feel myself being on. that level and it's wonderful. >> Yeah. And you can see all these other. people experiencing the same thing. It's. it's very transformational. really. >> it. And you know, I always talk about. the parking lot of church is like the. best place on earth cuz no, everybody. lets you go. Everybody lets everybody go.

in front of them. Everyone's kind, you. know, it's it it works. That's what's. crazy. Like the teachings of Jesus do. work. Like if you follow them, you will. be a better person. >> Yes, you will. >> But people are very cynical and rightly. so. They're very afraid of uh people. manipulating them. They're very afraid. of of cults. There you go. Oh, you got. your cross right on you. >> Yeah, >> that's a nice one, too. I like that. >> Thank you. >> There's people are very afraid of people. telling them that they know things, that.

they have the answers. >> Yeah. Um the the um I'm um I'm I'm not. afraid of that. Sometimes I'm skeptical. of it, but it depends on where it's. coming from. And sometimes I I don't. know how you are but sometimes I could. feel something very special with someone. who is talking about those kinds of. things. You know. >> you can feel the difference and the. difference between that and someone. who's not genuine is very apparent. >> Yeah. >> You you feel that as well like it's.

dists you know like I don't want to hear. this guy talk about this. >> But you know what if you have a [ __ ]. detector and you do and so do I. If you. have a [ __ ] detector you can really feel. and pick it up. >> Yeah. to block it out, you know. >> Yeah. Well, I think you your [ __ ]. detector works with virtually. everything. And I think the audience. gets it, too, >> you know. >> I agree. I the the in terms of of um if. my if my [ __ ] detector advises me to do. something, I must always do it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, listen, Joe, it's been an.

honor having you in here. You're a real. >> such such It's been such a pleasure. Um. you are truly what you do is you have. redefined the interview and you you made. it in into a very special. conversation conversation chat between. two guys. um who think they'll like each. other and they they talk for hours and. they they're inspired and they they come.

out and liking each other and and and. you do that to people and I think that's. a great gift. Thank you. I thank you for. the Joe Rogan experience. [laughter]. >> Thank you for being here. It's an honor. It's an honor to meet you and an honor. to have you on here and I I really. enjoyed the conversation. It was. awesome. >> Thank you. I did too. >> All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. >> [music]. [laughter].