Joe Rogan Experience #2503 - Eric Weinstein

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe. Rogan experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE. ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. Um I was like. there's only one way [music] to do this, I have to just not drink for a while. So, I took like 8 months off and then I. had like a margarita at dinner once. I. was like, "Oh, I miss this.". And then I had a glass of wine here or. there. >> I was wondering how that was going to. hold up. Yeah. Yeah, but I but you're. not I know that you're not captured by. it. No, no, no. It was just.

>> our religious observance requires it. You require abstinence or drinking? >> we drink. What when do you have to. drink? >> Shabbat every come any Friday. How much do you drink on Shabbat? I. probably have two and a half glasses of. wine. Is there like a number that you're. supposed to hit otherwise you're bad at. it? >> to be what? Well, that that's Purim. What is. >> We should get into Purim. We're getting. into it. >> All right. Do we need glasses? You want. to have a drink? Uh usually I. you you want I tend to go a while, so we. usually do that at the end. Well, let's.

let's get some ice and some glass Are we. rolling already? >> I've been rolling yeah. Okay. Let's get. some Tell Jeff to get us some ice and. some glass and a bottle of. >> say anything wrong. Um Buffalo Trace. Do you want to wait till I get back to. start cuz we either haven't started or. we started. We started. [ __ ] it. We started. Let's just roll. We'll get. Jeff to do it. What's that? I don't even have headphones. Are we. rolling still? >> doing headphone [ __ ] We can. Headphones, no headphones, I don't give. a [ __ ] I don't give We we mix it up. Okay. >> You know. What do you Do you Are you.

more comfortable You got a nice head of. hair. What? See, for me it doesn't. matter. I feel bad when people like work. on their hair real good, like especially. ladies, and they get it all nice and. then they have to [ __ ] smoosh it with. this thing. >> Okay, if you ever have that kind of. consideration for me, I'm going to be. very disappointed. I thought we were. closer. Some people worry about that. >> No, I worry about that. The gray. That you have gray in your hair? Oh, it's Yeah, look at it. >> Well, you're like pretty dark for your. age. How old are you now? 60. Yeah, you. you [ __ ] dark ass hair for your age.

If I let my If I had hair and it grew. out like my side hair. >> [clears throat]. >> It's mostly gray now. Yeah. Yeah. I I should have some gray hair in my. eyebrows a little bit. What's that? I. should have thought ahead like you did. What, shaved it? >> Yeah, shaved it when it everyone knew it. wasn't gray and then it's just normal. Cuz like it's very clear if I shave it. now. I think you can avoid gray hair. with proper supplementation. At least. that is the the thought today. Okay. >> That with enough zinc and copper. and that that somehow or another that's.

involved in the diet. Oh my god. I'm. talking out of my ass here. I don't know that much about um. what causes your hair to go gray. This. is Austin tap. Other than this is. Buffalo Trace. Older than America. Really? Yeah. This is. a distillery from 1773. I believe they started. Wow. >> them apples, huh? It's like that Chinese. sounding beer, Yanjing or something. Cheers. Cheers, my friend. Buffalo Trace is like you Why is there.

their beard really old? Beard really. old? Um. They have a old beer. Yanjing. Is it old as [ __ ]. >> Jamie knows everything. I feel. you know people 1829. You see. Oh. I. People say I have this AI I'm using. Claude, I'm using. chat GPT. I use Jamie. >> Jamie, right. For sure. I use Jamie cuz. he's way better than AI. He's way way. better than AI cuz he's kind of psychic. You're a little psychic, right? >> a little bit. Well, I mean I've listened. to you talk a lot.

>> [laughter]. >> My My theory is is that he also looks. ahead. He knows sort of where you're. likely to head so he's got it ready. >> He knows how my goofy [ __ ] brain. works. Yeah, for sure. Good to see you, my brother. >> see you. Hello, Joe. How was your your. What what what was it exactly? How would. you describe it? A speech, a presentation? >> a talk on dark energy uh to the. Karch group at the U Texas U Texas. Austin physics department. >> Ah, this is what I wanted to ask you. about. Michio Kaku has been saying that.

he believes that dark energy is possibly. something leaking in from another. dimension. Is that Look AT THAT FACE. >> [laughter]. >> YOU. GO ON. HE GAVE A LITTLE SIDE EYE. WELL, let's see what he says. James, see if. you can find that, please. I think He said it was gravity leaking. >> colonies and put them together as a kid. just to see what happens. Did I? No, I never did that. >> I did [clears throat] that. Uh why? Just. watch them fight?

>> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, you [ __ ] psycho. >> Yeah, a little bit. >> No, I never did any of that. You were. saying about Michio. Yeah, that he I I. just I didn't even read it. I just saw. it and went, "Oh, Jesus, I got to talk. to Eric about this.". >> [laughter]. >> Michio just dark matter isn't matter at. all. It's gravity leaking in from a. parallel dimension. And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't. that wild? >> [snorts]. >> Uh. What do you think about that? >> when I was here and. I said, "Get Michio Kaku in here with.

me.". >> Yeah. What What is it What is about. Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy. He. He is and was a brilliant guy. He's. decided to do something else and to be. entirely honest, I don't love going. after other named people. In general, my. stick is that I go hard after. institutions. I'm a huge institutional supporter and. their worst nightmare in the current. world. Individuals I don't like beefing with. I. I watch all of the energy.

the beauty of life lost to beefing with. people. Michio Kaku is doing a. tremendous amount of damage. to theoretical physics. How so? Um. Theoretical physics is in my estimation. the most beautiful, most powerful, most. economically potent thing you can do. with your life. And we are the best. The United States is, in my opinion, the greatest nation in the history of. the Earth for theoretical physics.

Because we are cowboys, we are. irreverent. We are the We are the people who. invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs, the semiconductor. Um. This is what we do. And we've lost the. ability to do it. at an at a level that I cannot believe. happened during my watch, my lifetime. So, from 1984. to the present, those 42 years. have been the greatest intellectual.

implosion, I think, that I know of, where people just got dumber. And what do you think is the cause? I'm. going to distract this. human and Quantum gravity. Quantum gravity did it? Yep. Mhm. In 1984, there was a result, and it's called the Green-Schwarz. anomaly cancellation. And the guy that I've talked to you. about before in UFO context, the guy who. is Louis Witten's son, Louis Witten, happy happy birthday, turned 105,

um was the anti-gravity guy from the. '50s. His son, Edward Witten, decided that the 1984 Green-Schwarz. anomaly cancellation meant. that we should all all the smartest. people should pile into one narrow. sub-specialty, and that that was the future. And because he was so much smarter than. all of us, people listened, and I didn't. And Michio Kaku is part of his wave. Almost all of the people that you've.

traditionally had on in physics. have some connection to this. You So, you've had on, I don't know, probably. Sean Carroll, uh. Neil de Grasse Tyson. Brian Greene. Nobody wanted to say what was happening, which is that we were we were being. unraveled and destroyed. Our ability to. be the world's greatest theoretical. physicist was being. eroded year by year for 42 years. >> it was the pursuit of string theory?

It's not string theory itself that's the. problem. String theory is harmless. It's. just a bunch of equations, a bunch of. ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in. many places. So. um. that's not an issue. The issue is the. exclusion of everything else. And this goes into the name TOGIT or the. only game in town, t o g i t. Mhm. And. it's this idea that only we. the enlightened.

can do theoretical physics and the rest. of you are. just doing finger exercises and you're. too stupid to know it. So specifically. like what is. what what's isolationist about string. theory? Like what is it about this one. particular theory that all this thought. has been pushed into that? The claim is. that there's this thing called UV. complete physics. There's no way that we. can have a discussion about that. directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I.

impose upon you to call up on YouTube. Wheel of Fortune. and then use I've got a good feeling. about this. I can explain it to you. Wheel of. Fortune I've got a good feeling about. this? >> a good feeling about this. >> Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of. Fortune? >> It'll be over briefly. It's very very. quick. It's about a minute and a half or. something. And. the key point is it's a tight analogy. for the problem faced in physics that. anyone can understand. So I don't people.

think I try to make things complicated. I really try to make them. understandable, but what I do is I talk. about things. I don't know that you've ever had anyone. talk about UV completeness on the Joe. Rogan show. >> I don't believe so. Yeah. Yeah. >> said, okay, put your headphones on. >> Yeah. Well, you're not going to be able to. hear it unless you have headphones on. I know it like the back of my hand. Wheel of Fortune. We need a phrase this. time. That's the category for this. puzzle, and it is A PRIZE PUZZLE.

>> [applause]. >> GO AHEAD, RICK. GLADLY. >> [applause]. >> AND WHAT DO WE GET HERE? 500. R. WELL, you'd think there'd be an R in. there somewhere, wouldn't you? Oh, Rick. >> [applause]. [applause]. >> L. Uh one L.

>> [applause]. >> It's really fun. What's that? Can I solve? Okay. >> a prize puzzle. Yeah. I've got a good. feeling about this. THAT'S RIGHT. >> [screaming]. >> THAT'S INSANE. >> [applause and cheering]. >> THAT LADY'S A WIZARD. That lady is what I want to do with my. life. That is what great physics looks like. It's totally irresponsible. >> [snorts]. >> And you know, Pat Sajak is like trying. to.

ask her, like, how'd you do that? And. she says, well, I got a good feeling. about this. You know, and the the funny. part about it is you can figure it out. The if you if you go back, can Jamie, can you show the board right there? Yeah. So, clearly that apostrophe is a huge. clue, right? So, the idea is that if you. read that property, is it isle? Is it I've? Right? And then there's no R. Um. so. think about all of those blank squares.

as orders of magnitude that you are away. from the energies that would allow you. to do experiments that would explain. physics. And think about the apostrophe, the L in that pattern, as well as the fact that it there's no R. as the standard model of physics. So, right now, what you have is a debate. about whether or not we should buy more. and more letters with higher and higher. energy. Or, like should we build bigger. accelerators and spend more treasure. trying to collide particles?

Or should we just Caitlyn our way out of. this? So, Caitlyn Burke is my model of. what I think we're supposed to be doing. So, an exceptional mind with an ability. to see or propose things that other. people aren't seeing. How I guarantee. you that if we studied this, if we spent. a a month with the world's smartest. people on this puzzle, we'd learn that there are certain things. that were present that, you know, that. that that the frequency of certain the. fact that there's a single letter there. that almost certainly is I or A. She she.

took a tiny number of clues. But, here's the really important thing. Jamie, can we show the the the filled-in. puzzle? So, you'll notice that the word this. could be changed to that because the. only letter that's been excluded is an. R. Mhm. So, that is what the issue of. unique UV completion is. In other words,

you a unique UV completion would say. there's [clears throat] only one phrase. that fits there. She guessed. She. couldn't have known it isn't I've got a. good feeling about that or I've got a. nice feeling. about this or that. So, it's actually. not. um. or I'll get a good feeling about this. But, all of those were much less. probable. because. they're just not as natural. So, this is a combination of science, guesswork,

and raw courage. Like the the the most. marvelous thing about that exchange is. she says, "I. Can I solve?". And there's like he's not even sure he's. hearing her properly. And then finally he says, "Okay." That's. that's gatekeeping. Can I put this ar-. article on the archive? Can I give a. seminar in your department? I want to solve the puzzle. And a lot of. what we're arguing about is that the. string theorists are the only ones who. have the right to try to solve the. puzzle. at the moment. So, imagine that somehow.

there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick. who guesses that there's an R. Imagine. that he's the only one allowed to solve. the puzzle. And when she asks, "May I. solve the puzzle?". No, no, no, you can't. That's. pseudoscience. You're a charlatan. That's [ __ ] you know, that is crank physics. Mhm. So, that's. what the problem that we're facing is is. that we've got one group that got. control of the gatekeeping. who is very good at mathematics,

extremely bad at physics. And they've redefined what physics is. and what good science is, where they're. the only ones who are guessing the. puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle. And everyone else is like Here's a crazy. story from yesterday. I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a. talk in the physics department even. though. any normal person would say that that. happened. And I wasn't allowed to do. that when I visited a physics. institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed.

to say that I was visiting for a week. Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a. seminar that lasted 9 hours. But you. just did. >> Yeah. Are you a lawbreaker? I'm breaking the. rules now because I've Now I've had it. I agreed I agreed to not do this. And. I'm And with these missing scientists, I've changed my mind. >> [snorts]. >> I'm not going to deal with these people. anymore. And whatever is going on with. science and the suppression of different. ideas.

um is terrifying. Right now we have a situation. I You. know, I gave a talk at the University of. Chicago. There's no record of it. Who's asking you to do these talks and. who's asking you to not give a record? You don't have to name names. >> Yeah, particular people. In general, the funny part is that the. people who asked me to give talks in the. physics departments. are the most courageous person in each. department. So, the problem is that the person that.

I you you end up feeling resentful. towards. How dare you tell me that I. can't give this talk in this department. officially. is the person who's arranging for your. stay. and is arranging for the the room. And they are under the most pressure. from the institution. So, the. institution is forcing them to say. you you're allowed to do give the talk, but you're not allowed to talk about it. on social media, you're not allowed to. Right. advertise that you're doing it, you're not allowed to say that you're. doing it. So, in this case in the case.

of of U Texas physics department, I was. allowed to say I'm speaking in the Cart. group seminar. It's like a condom to make sure that the. physics department doesn't get pregnant. Well, isn't that really bizarre because. University of Austin, Texas was supposed. to be a university that fixed all the. [ __ ] that was wrong with other. universities? It's much much more insane. than that. This was the home of Steven. Weinberg who moved from Harvard to Texas. because the money the oil money was used. to buy brains. So,

heart basically Texas raided Harvard for. people like John Tate in the math. department, Steven Weinberg who was the. probably the greatest living. uh theorist. And that was the. continuation of the Bryce DeWitt group. from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was. set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew. Bahnson. So, you're right next to. an amazing physics department. with a crazy history. Um that in fact touched anti-gravity.

This is one of the one of the. tiny number of places that has a. a real legacy in that department. And I. I was speaking there on gravity. On dark energy. And. I Look, I've been lying my whole life. about my relationship with the physics. world because of this pressure. They can't listen to me if I say I'm a. physicist, so I say I'm an entertainer. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. But then people say, "Well, why would. you do that? Why would you say that.

you're an entertainer when you obviously. are conversant in all this stuff?" And. the answer is, "I don't want to die. I. don't want to lose my ability to enter a. physics department." So, I take on this. completely wrong persona. And you know, I have the emails. You're. not giving a talk, you're having. conversations in room 5308. It literally says you're not giving a. talk? >> I could read what it is that they write. to me. So. >> Why but why what is the benefit of this. formal declaration or this formal. designation of the way you're talking?

So, when I was at a physics institute in. Canada. I. I was told, "We're worried that you're. going to use it to legitimize yourself.". It's like. I'm going to do that. Of course I'm. going I have a PhD from Harvard, you. stupid I I mean. Like. you guys imagine I'm I'm I'm I'm a. podcast guest? This episode is brought to you by. Squarespace. Once you've got a great. name for your business, you need a great.

domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to. lock in a domain. You just search the. name you want, buy it, and then you're. ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird. upsells. Go to squarespace.com/rogan. for a free trial. And when you are ready. to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10%. off your first purchase of a website or. domain. Right, just a regular dude with some. wacky ideas. Right. And so the idea is I. have to play that character.

as opposed to I have. >> Legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre. phrase. Tell me about it. >> That's cuz it's assuming that you're not. legitimate. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I. don't think you're understanding this. But no, I am understanding it. But but. from their perspective, saying that. you're going to use it to legitimize. yourself and your ideas is a really. crazy way to phrase it. Because like. you're they're acting from the. assumption that you're not legitimate. >> So that's their. You remember when like I think Reagan. thought I forget who it was. Reagan.

thought they were recallable missiles. Where you could turn them around? >> Right. Sorry, we changed our mind. So. Like a base jumper who's also a suicide. jumper. >> [laughter]. >> On second thought. >> [laughter]. >> Halfway in, he's like, "Ah, [ __ ] this. No, I like I like this.". >> Yo, a lot of these people who survived. jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, they. learn like I I love life. Yes. Yes, most. of them. >> They're reborn. Yeah. Um so what I would. say is. the problem is that I am. I don't I don't I don't.

This is not a boast, as you know I don't. usually put my credential first. I'm probably the most blue chip. defector from the institutions. Mutant. mutineer, let's put it call it that. Um I have a I have essentially perfect. credentials. And that's the problem. So it's not a question about you're. going to legitimize you. I already. legitimized myself by. Harvard PhD, MIT post doc, NSF post.

doctoral fellow, ONR top in the country, Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in. math, physics, economics departments. I'm so bulletproof. So, that's the problem. >> That's the problem. That's the problem. It's not that you're a cook that. >> That's what I was what I was trying to. say, you didn't understand. No, I do. understand. I just don't understand why. they want to do that, too. That's what's. bizarre. >> narrative. Okay. I am I am the greatest danger. to the narrative. I'm I'm the most followed mathematician. in the United States, maybe the world.

Hannah Fry maybe. above it. That danger to the narrative. is the problem. Well, specifically for. people that don't know what we're. talking about, what is. to make this a stand-alone show, the. people that not aware of your work, what. is it that about you and your ideas. that they are so hesitant to platform? Or legitimize, or why you're such a. danger. Okay, so in 2001. I said mortgage-backed securities were a.

great danger to the world. I have one of. the first published papers on the danger. of illiquid of the pricing of illiquid. securities. Uh. I went on Chris Williamson's show and he. asked me who's going to win, Biden or. Trump. I said you don't even know. whether Biden's going to make it to. November. I said that that people. representatives of the Democrat Party. reached out to me and said stop talking. about Biden's dementia. You need your affirmation that you're. seeing something real. We've put in. three people. uh as a committee to replace the. president. And I I said like, I'm.

supposed to feel good about that? Um. so I keep. >> They Well, they told you they put in. three people? >> They put in a committee of three people, and if you knew who those people were, you'd be pleased as punch, so shut up. That's what they said to you? >> Yeah, correct. You would be really. happy, so shut up. >> Yeah. They didn't even tell you who the. people were? I think that they did, and I've. conveniently forgot them. Though, one of. them might have been the chief of staff. >> [laughter]. [sighs and gasps]. >> Wow. So That's like But I say But I say.

this, right? And I'm not trying to. I mean, I keep lots of secrets that. people ask me to keep that I should. keep. Things that having to do with. national security, for example. But these people are incompetent. And they're a danger to us. And right. now that the string theory narrative is. a complete danger. It's not string. theory that's the problem. It's the It's. the only game in town. And so, you know, there was a. Look, people are willing to spend their.

entire credibility. just to make me go away. Could you. briefly just describe like what What is. the So, there's not a problem with. string string theory? Or is string. theory not complete? Or is string theory. readed. Has it reaped actual results? Mathematically, it's reaped results. And. string theorists have occasionally. done really great work in in a subject. called quantum field theory. But quantum. field theory isn't about the quantum.

field theory of the world. Quantum field theory is like calculus. It's something that's very useful. And. it it grew up in physics. But we've now found out that quantum. field theory has to do with pure. problems in mathematics that have. nothing to do with physics. And. what they haven't done is they haven't. dealt with the physical world. So, if. you take physics, why why do we care. about physics so much more than really. almost any other aspect of the sciences. other than biology? I had to give a talk at the New York.

Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys. And I I put it on the slide as uh three. things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom. Easy to remember. Boom is weapons. Physics will create weapons that. you'll. dwarf every everything else. With the possible exception of. biologicals. Uh. zoom uh vroom is energy. And the story of energy is basically the. story of prosperity and control. If you.

look at wealth and the amount of fossil. fuels burned, it's more or less like a. one-to-one correlation as to which. nations are rich and poor. per capita. And zoom is everything else. It's propulsion, it's computation, it's communication. And those things, if you if you take. them together, um more or less define the economy and. the world order. Physics is. the center of. what makes us.

modern humans. And. it became too dangerous in the 1950s. Even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons. are extremely bad, but they're not. hydrogen bombs. Um somehow in November of '52 everything. changed. And. we became. we became too dangerous. The the. community of physicists is the most. powerful group of people made into. completely.

uh ineffectual humans. And do you think this is by design? Partially. And what what what was the. purpose of it? By by saying that you. became that physicists became too. dangerous, the ideas became too. dangerous. Is the idea that the weapons. would become so immense and powerful. that they had to do something to stop. and curb that? Well, we didn't know how. to control it, right? So, in other. words, for example, in the in 1940, we set up something called the reference. committee, which I'm sure your listeners. have never heard of. And the reference. committee lived inside of the National.

Research Council. Now, why was it. important? Because chain reaction physics was so. hot. Once the neutron was found, right? So, think about neutrons as bullets. Um. they can go right into the middle of an. atom because they're they're not. positively charged, so they're not going. to be repelled by the nucleus. And they can bust apart atoms that are. base barely being held together and. that's why you you get bullets begetting. bullets begetting bullets and that's. what a chain reaction is. The people who were doing that in the 40.

in the 30s. suddenly found that when they mailed off. a paper to a journal. if they weren't part of the secret group. in Los Alamos. their paper got held up. and sent back for revisions. And there was no money in it. We we. secretly set up this thing to shunt real. research. into the National Research Council. I. think this was organized by a guy named. Breit, B R E I T. And.

that was the beginning of this whole. peer review control mechanism. And this. control, do you think is this ego-based? That the people who are the gatekeepers. want to remain in the position of. We all want to survive, Joe. I mean, this is a real problem. So, you and I. can hate on the institutions all we want. from the safety of the JRE. But. what are you going to do when it becomes. really, really easy. for people to commit. like mass [clears throat] murder. If you. think about all the really bad math like.

the the Vegas shooting that never really. got sorted out. It's very hard to kill large numbers of. people using things like bullets. If you want to really kill large number. of people, you're going to go to. biologicals and you're going to go to. nuclear. And what happens when that becomes easy? Like maybe it's a lot easier to build. these weapons than the way we currently. do it. Right now, we're we're uh. bottlenecked on things like centrifuges. And by the way, who knows what the next.

innovation in physics is going to bring? So, I always say this thing about if. you're not tracking everybody at my. level. what are you doing as an intelligence. service? Is this part of your concern about the. missing scientist? >> Yeah, yeah, of course. >> Yeah, so the missing scientist narrative. um for people that aren't aware of it, I. think they're up to 15 now, and a lot of. people say that some of these. connections are baseless and that some. of them it's just. >> really up to 15. No, okay. So, what do. you think we're actually up to? >> I don't know. Probably. five or six. But, I saw someone online.

do a breakdown of it, and essentially. they were saying that the odds of this. being a coincidence are off the charts. The the people that are all involved in. very specific types of technological. technological research, different things that are top secret, that all of these people either wind up. missing, There's a lot of murder in math. and physics, first of all. People don't. really appreciate that. Um you know, the Unabomber was a famous. PhD mathematician. Uh. He's a big story, though. There's.

there's a lot of them. >> There was a guy named Cantor who. uh broke into David Rittenhouse. Laboratories in the University of. Pennsylvania, where I was an. undergraduate, and shot up a seminar. Um. there was uh. you know, this. situation in Iowa, where a relative of. mine got a seat in the physics. department um because somebody was. killed by one of the graduate students. I think it became a movie, like Dark. Matter. So, there's an incredible amount of.

murder. Uh the ball-peen hammer uh killing of. was it Karl Delue by. um. uh Streleski at Stanford. So, first of. all, there's just a lot of death because. mathematicians and physicists are. somewhat close to unhinged. And it's it's a really nasty There's a. lot of nasty culture, and sometimes it. becomes violent. >> Why do you think they're close to. unhinged? You spend that much time in your head.

I I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded. as I am. >> [laughter]. >> No, seriously. You're just way out in. the stratosphere. I I I completely forget who I am, where. I am, that I'm even a human being. That. When you're using your body as an. instrument as you as you do. um in combat sports and training, you. become a different thing. You know. You know that archery thing where you. have to Mhm. twist your arm. A lot of people don't know that they can. do that initially. Like it's just a. small thing like that. Or you know how. >> about archery thing that you twist your.

arm? If you have an old style bow, you often. get burned by the Oh, that you have to. twist your arm like that so that you. don't. >> Yeah. >> you don't like this and get hit. >> Right. But but you you you don't see. See, but then you twisted your your. wrist. You keep your wrist straight. Just I don't do that kind of archery. That's why I'm confused. >> Well, okay. Sorry. You do real This this. kind. Yeah. You keep your hand like. that. Okay. Um Well, >> issue. But like if you're if you're if. you're a sniper, you know, there are all. sorts of things about breathing and and.

your eye how you adjust your eyes and. >> Right. You use your body as an instrument as a. mathematician or a physicist. One of the. reasons that I I wish I were in better. shape is that in order for me to keep my. mind in a particular way, I have to not. think constantly about suppressing food, you know. So what you're doing a you're. doing a very unnatural thing. Mhm. And. that unnatural thing. uh. not everybody can handle it. Right. I see what you're saying. >> And we snap. And also.

our minds are more perfect. The. messiness of the world and the. perfection of our minds is at odds with. each other. And I love disappearing into math and. physics because it's perfect. >> But how's that lead to violence? Um you're upset because people are. lying, you know. You're you're like the. the Unabomber had a had a really. interesting points. He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really. correctly. You know, he has a. an amazing story called Ship of Fools. I. highly recommend anybody read it. Just.

the way Charles Manson's Look at Your. Game Girl is a great song. >> [snorts]. >> Yeah. It's a great sign. Okay. Yeah. I Um. We're not comfortable in part with. coming back to the. the half measures and the the special. pleading that sort of. characterizes normal life. So, to get back to the missing scientist. narrative, um. I don't think there are 15 missing. scientists in this data set. That's.

[ __ ]. It seems like they're adding as many as. they can. Yeah, they're. They're trying to make connections that. don't seem to add. >> It's It's like It's like the. junkification of the UFO narrative. All. of these narratives have a junk to them. so that I believe a lot of the junk is a. fix to the narrative so that those who. want to follow the institutional. instruction to ignore the fact that this. is happening can point to the. crappiness. Right? And so, that's the out. And the really difficult thing that you.

do, and you do really well, is you try. to. piece together, okay, what's [ __ ]. what's real? There's a lot of real in. the UFO story and there's a lot of. nonsense. There's a lot of real in the. COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The. same thing is true for physics. But, physics is more dangerous. And the fact that we're not tracking. Like, I always wonder why they allow me. to come on the. JRE. and say stuff. I know a lot of stuff that I don't know.

what it unlocks. And. >> Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who. comes on here. Sure, but China is. smarter than And by the way, the LLMs, I. mean, look, there are a lot of threads. here. To get back to the physics, um and I'm. giving a talk tomorrow on at the at the. U Texas Austin on supporting science, math, and physics and renewing our. commitment to it. I don't want to give the impression that. it isn't dangerous or that the. gatekeeping is stupid. It's really.

important to do great gatekeeping around. mathematics and physics. It's. cryptography, it's weaponry, it's. propulsion. It's, you know, a sudden change in the. world economy. Um if you figured out how to do fusion, it would have immediate geopolitical. results. So, these specific scientists that are. missing, whatever the number is, five, six that. you think are legitimate, what what. specifically are they working on that's.

so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy, obviously, is at MIT, is anybody who. might I I don't know. Fusion isn't my. thing, plasma is my thing. Um. but that is. unquestionably. dangerous if you imagine how much. depends on oil. And is there is it a. good assumption that if you have one. incredibly brilliant person that's at. the head of this thing and they make a. breakthrough, if you kill that guy, the. whole thing is in disarray because the. people that are under him,

whatever people he has working with him, aren't as fully immersed in it as he is, that you can kind of like handicap a. problem? It's like let's say if there's. >> five people. >> It's an energy thing. Let's say if it's. an energy thing. Let's say if someone. has some new technology that's going to. completely disrupt the fossil fuels. industry and they go, "Listen, we can. kill this [ __ ] guy and it's still. coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it. by 10 years and make $15 trillion." So,

this is the question about the far right. tail, like the extreme right tail of. human intelligence and ability. And if you think about certain areas. where you have a dominant figure, uh Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for. example, what percentage of all tricks derive. from Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have. stopped skateboarding, but you could. certainly have held it back by getting. to Rodney Mullen. Right? Um when it comes to, you know, guitar,

the the amount of impact that uh Jimi. Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had is just. wildly disproportionate. You know, when when when I was doing my. podcast, I was really excited to do. Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen. together. I wanted to get them, you know, totally. different sports, but um. those two guys are sort of the same. They just created so much vocabulary you. can't even imagine it. And. >> Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit. he deserves, either. Oh, tell me. Talk to me. Well, it's just.

Van Halen. became Van Hagar. and it became a different kind of music. And I think a lot of the original. hardcore fans left, but a lot I think it. got more popular with Sure. Sammy Hagar, but it was a different kind of music. And not that it's bad, but it's. different. And then I think a lot of. people just went, "Nah.". But like if you go like to.

you know, some of the like big Van Halen. with David I think Van Halen with David. Lee Roth in his prime was a literally a. perfect band. It was phenomenal. That. was They were the [ __ ] when I was in. high school. I mean, it was everybody. had Van Halen on their notebooks. They. made the VH. >> it. They were awesome. And they were so. good. [snorts] And Van Halen and Eddie. specifically could shred so hard and. some of those classic riffs. I just don't think in the mainstream.

world he got the credit that he. deserves. I see it differently. Well, people. mention Clapton, who of course is a. great wizard. Always it's number one is Hendrix. Most. people have Hendrix as number one. because he was so revolutionary. Well, nobody's going to say Allan Holdsworth. Yeah, I don't know who he is. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, my my my point is is that. um. David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from. becoming Allan Holdsworth. And. that's Who is Allan Holdsworth?

Oh, it's interesting. Allan Holdsworth. Like if you talk to your hot [ __ ]. guitarist friends, they will very often. Like everybody will just pause and say, "Well, yeah, I don't That's Allan. Holdsworth.". Really? Yeah. And it's sort of like listening to a. modem for normal human beings. Right? Um that's why it's just just not. popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was this. >> he play with? I don't know. Allan Holdsworth. Just by. himself? Yeah. And can we just actually.

weirdly put Allan Holdsworth just like. choose something with a. >> Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to some of his. music. >> So we might have We'll edit it out of. the episode because otherwise we'll get. dinged on YouTube. >> Okay, why don't we Okay, but like. >> it. We'll play it and then we'll just. come right back to it. >> All right, let's do that. Give me some, Jamie. Was it Is there any specific song. that you'd like? No, it's all. It's all mind melting. >> So I can see if He's got. >> [snorts]. >> anything popular we might have known so. I could tap tap into that, but I don't. see nothing. Like Is there a song that you like that. you could recommend? I just listen to a.

certain amount of it and then I don't. listen to it again. I'm not at that. level where I need Allan Holdsworth. Okay. What does that mean? No, what does. that mean? >> [laughter]. >> Thank you, Jamie. I'd rather see some guy flying through. the air with like. >> [laughter]. >> his pants on fire than listen to Allan. Holdsworth. Okay, here we go. Live in Tokyo. 1984, live in Tokyo. >> Tokyo Dream. See if you can use the histogram to.

figure out like where the nerds are. going. Histogram? Yeah, it shows you like where. people spend their time on a video. Oh, really? I would go right into the middle of it. or something. I'm already checking on what he's doing. there. Oh. This concert sell out or Nothing's going. on right now. Put it in the middle, Jamie.

What is Is that a uh. You've heard this before, though? Yeah. What Is that a bass? What is the other. guitar I'm hearing? Cuz that is not matching up with with.

that bass player seems to be playing. Do. you hear that extra guitar? That's slower. >> [music]. >> and off time. I don't know. That's a bass, I think. So. >> It doesn't sound like he's playing it. >> My My guitarist friends would just. salivate. And I'll look at them. It wouldn't help. I'll [laughter] look at I mean, no.

offense, but it's. It's [laughter]. can't be very. It sounds like jazz, right? So, it's. like jazz guitar. Like, there's no. there's no singing. >> sir. >> [laughter]. >> If I put on If I. No more Jerry Jerry. I've had it. >> [sighs]. >> Oh, Jerry. [snorts]. Jamie, you were going to have so much. nerd hate. I mean, I've never said. anything people will agree with me, too,

I believe. >> 100% More will agree with you. That was my point. I think David Lee. Roth had some. had some comment about if it weren't for. me, the brothers would be. playing biker bars in the far valley or. something, you know? And so David Lee. Roth came up with what we would call the. syntactic sugar, the thing that made Van. Halen. fun and listenable and danceable. Like. Dance the Night Away. Yeah. I didn't like Van Halen. I loved that. song. >> What? I never liked Van Halen.

>> Oh, how dare you? >> I loved Eddie Van Halen and I loved that. song. >> I didn't You want to I'm even. embarrassed about that. The one I'm. embarrassed about I completely dismissed. AC/DC in real time because I'm an idiot. Oh. I've never been more wrong about. something in my life. >> How did you dismiss AC/DC? >> Good question. They had a dumb thing going on with the. school pants and the dirty deeds done. dirt cheap and.

>> [ __ ] song. What great song. Well, you. know, like musically Hot for Teacher is an. amazing composition. Yeah. Unbelievable, right? But it's the key thing that they. figured out is making things marketable. Right. Right? And that's David Lee Roth. And I think it's David Lee Roth. >> Yeah. And [clears throat] but he was so. charismatic and did jumping splits. Yeah, he was a man. Amazing. Amazing. And he had a. a secret weakness for old-timey music. Right.

>> Right? Like Just a Gigolo, Ice Cream. Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's. like a almost a throwback to 1930s for. you know, even earlier, vaudeville. He's. an odd guy. Have you ever met him? I've. wanted I've wanted to so badly. I'm so. jealous. But I I don't think you ever. really get to him. It's always the show. Like in podcasts, it's a little like I. really enjoyed talking to him, but it's. a little odd. >> I've seen I didn't love the way he was. My my feel like I would I would go the. Jewish angle. I.

I would connect to him based on shared. cultural heritage, but. what I think about Eddie. is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist. He was an electronics guy. He was a. keyboard player. He was. handsome as the day is long, bursting with charisma. And like you and I mostly don't know. whether guys are good looking. I know. Eddie Van Halen was good looking. Tell me more. He He He was the whole thing. Yeah, for.

sure. Right. >> Rockstar. Yeah, and so my feeling is is. that those two guys. really. You know, it's it's one of those things. where you have two guys in a band that. you know, both of them are are one in a. one in a billion kind of people and they. happen to meet. I. I. I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen, but I didn't do it in real time. I came. to it later, but I remember the first. time I heard Van Halen 1, I had the same. mystical thing. What is that? Nothing.

sounds like this. I've almost never had that in music. You. know, the first time I heard uh Smells. Like Teen Spirit, what is that? Those You know, there are these moments. where something discontinuous happens. >> But you heard like Ain't Talkin' 'bout. Love and that never got you? No, Panama doesn't get me. >> Ain't Talkin' 'bout Love is a [ __ ]. jam. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> When was the last time you listened to. it? This year.

And nothing? It's not that. Well, okay. So, part part of the. >> the thing is is that do you do you play. an instrument? When you play an. instrument. >> Yeah, I don't play anything. You know, the thing about Eddie Van Halen is is. that he accepted the geometry. of the neck of the guitar. And. very often you see musicians say, "I. don't care what key it's in. I I I can. figure out how to do anything." Eddie. Van Halen didn't do that. He said, "Look, there's certain things that this. thing makes possible. And I'm going to I'm going to accept the.

limitations of the instrument. >> [snorts]. >> and figure out how to push it in all. sorts of ways. Another quote of his that. I just love is this thing about. um. if it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't. care. He wanted all of those noises. >> Mhm. And figuring out how to get those. noises, figuring out how to make the. guitar into more. This is a thing that. obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy. Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen.

where. they're just. they're in some other space where it's. no longer an instrument the way you and. I see it. You know, I I've never wanted a whammy bar on my. instrument until I saw Jeff Beck. do. crazy stuff that just isn't possible. Did I ever tell you I drove him around. once? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had that car on. air. Yeah. And that. um.

You know, you've never had Derek Trucks. on the program, have you? Tedeschi. Trucks? Uh yeah. No. That guy is. not a human. Oh, he's amazing. >> Amazing. And um And there's a bunch of. different people singing songs. So, yeah, I Look, I care tremendously. about the guitar and you know, the funny. thing that I realized is that I stupidly. mentioned guitars on JRE and I got sent. amazing guitars and I had I had gave me.

sent a. a Quad Cortex. Um. I should have mentioned like. Lamborghinis or like jewels or. something. >> work. I've mentioned all those things. >> Okay. Um but I became friends with like. the greatest guitarists of our time. And. they're all suffering because nobody. cares. And and I I heard, and I haven't. seen it, that you had Marcus King. on and talked about the death of rock. Well, I talked about the death of rock. before and Marcus reached out and that's. why I had him on. He was like, "Man,

rock's not dead. We're doing it every. [ __ ] night." And I was like, "All. right, come on, man. Let's talk.". And did you get to the blues which he. excels at? Well, we mostly just we're talking about. just music in general and his life and. he's in it very What did he give you a. nice guitar? Yeah, it's beautiful, right? He's a cool [ __ ] He's a. cool guy. And he's super talented, too. Never met him. Well, it's like these these. This is what my my conversation was. about. Like this is what's what prompted. it, rather. Is it when I was a kid, rock.

and roll music was the big popular. music. >> 100%. It was all Rolling Stones, AC/DC, these bands were huge. Zeppelin, they. were [ __ ] huge. They were the biggest. bands. That's not the case anymore. >> That's right. And that's weird. And I. what I said is I don't understand how a. a a music. genre that's so popular can stop being. popular when it's still so good. Like. when we have Protect Our Parks and, you. know, we'll play Free Bird, we still go.

nuts for that guitar solo. What happened. to Free Bird? I'm pretty sure if you looked at. Google's data, Free Bird was. in. it went away for a long time. Mhm. And. then it got resurrected as a meme. Right? Because you you can feel, all. right, this insanely long intro. Mhm. Just so luxurious, you can't believe. anybody would put up with it anymore. >> Right. And then. >> It's two different songs. Right. Lord.

knows I can't Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Right? Fly high, Free Bird. Yeah. And. then do do do do do do do. Suddenly, you're on fire. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's just like you want. to fly an American flag, you want to. shoot lasers, whatever it is. That feeling. I think went away. And I think that I think that Free Bird, if I'd love to see the day that it came. back. And in part, it was probably Trump.

and Elon. and this re. We're in a masculinity crisis world. over. And the masculinity crisis. originally killed Free Bird and it. brought it back. I think Free Bird was. brought back by Protect Our Parks. Okay. You think so? I. It's I mean, as Google Trends says, it's. never really gone away. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What. is There's a peak in 2010. There's a peak in around December 9th to. 2010. >> Wait, wait, that's 20.

A peak in 2010? That's weird. Something. could have happened. Could look it up. >> I wonder what it was. It probably was in. a movie. >> Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the. reason that I said that is that I would. make this reference cuz. you used to be able to refer. to Free Bird it it was a meme. It's like. everybody knew it. Yeah, people would. yell out And then there was a period of. time when no young person had any clue. what I was talking about. And I I know Oh, that's interesting. Because they they still knew Stairway to. Heaven. If you remember these like top.

500 songs of all time. Yeah. And then it. would always come down to the last two. and it would always be Free Bird and. Stairway to Heaven. Those would. invariably. Right. Then suddenly nobody knew what Free Bird. was and now everybody knows again. So I. I I. Yeah. I I I will be I will stand. corrected, but there was a period of. time when young people didn't know it. Well, is this Google Trends? Is that. what that is, Jamie? >> Yeah. Yep. So it's just people looking. up. >> even go like that's probably when they. put the video on YouTube for the first.

time or it became available on Apple for. the first time to download and it wasn't. only on App Store or something like. that. >> back to the the blues aspect of it. It's. blues based. rock. that feels like that thing that you and. I relate to. >> Mhm. And This episode is brought to you. by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your. dad on Father's Day? The beard and dome bundle from Manscaped. is a really solid option. I've been. using their dome shaver for a while now,

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shipping with the code Rogan15 at. manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free. shipping with code Rogan15 at. manscaped.com. You know, we're not. most I'm really into the blues, but. that's a it's its own controversy. because when black audiences stop. showing up to blues shows, the performers got worse because the the. audience was a huge part of the. experience. I I tell you about this argument I got.

into with John Mayer about the blues. No. So, I I ran into John Mayer. um. where was it? Saint Vincent de Paul's. and. I've been in awe of that guy. intellectually. When he talks about. music, I get so much out of it. He's. just very perceptive, very brilliant. guy. And so, I was you know, really excited. to meet him. And we get into this. discussion. And I said, "You're like a huge Stevie. Ray Vaughan fan." And.

I said, "I I I really don't get it. I. like him. I think he's a great player, but I don't understand the focus." And. he said, "Oh, I can explain that." He. says, "I came from the MTV generation. And he was the blues packaged for us. Like a genius guy for sure, but packaged. for MTV. >> Mhm. He said, "But, you know, blues isn't. really. um. blues isn't a is isn't a real musical. format, it's an ingredient." I said, "What are you talking about?" He said,

"Well, you would never go to a blues. show.". I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this. to John Mayer, but I don't think you know what you're. talking about.". House of Blues. >> [laughter]. >> It's literally. Well, he meant something. So, the the. thing is is that I caught the end of. black audiences. like old black people. listening to the blues and paying for. it. So, there's who pays and who plays. And I'm black people are still paying. for blues, but a lot of them aren't uh.

sorry, are still playing blues, but a. lot of them aren't paying for it. So, when I go, for example, to uh see. Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show. every Monday night, I go occasionally in. in Tarzana, it's like. 70-year-old. and up white people. So, you see like. hot chicks in their 80s in crop tops. dancing. And. that's what it is now. It's like a. really old crowd keeping this thing. alive. And I can't understand it because.

it feels great, Joe. Right. And. um. and that's the thing. It's just like, you know, Bonamassa, he does these. cruises keeping the blues alive. And my. feeling is like, "F that.". We we've got to actually get. people back into understanding what it. is. So, if you picture those huge bands. in your youth, stop thinking about the the band on. stage rocking out, and pan in your mind. into the audience. And what do you see?

Young people. Young people. What are they doing? Dancing, having. fun. >> They're dancing. There's some There's some chick in a. crop top on some guy's shoulders. rocking out. Free bird. When. when hot chicks stop dancing to your. music, it starts to enter its death. throes. >> Damn. >> And that's true with jazz. It's true with traditional R&B. And it's true with the blues, it's true. with rock. And so the important thing I.

I keep telling people is that you have. to get people dancing. Once you start. becoming intellectual, like Allan. Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Allan. Holdsworth. Maybe you are. >> [laughter]. >> That's not my [ __ ]. You have no idea. >> to it, Jeremy? What do you think? Dude. I'm going to honestly tell you. guys you sound old as [ __ ] right now. >> [laughter]. >> There's so much music and rock music and. arenas right now that's selling out. What is rock in in arenas right now? >> like there's a bunch of bands I could. say like Bad Omens, Beartooth, Korn just.

posted a video in front of like São. Paulo, Brazil, 50,000 people going. crazy. Yeah, like Meshuggah. I I It's out. there. Yeah. >> But it's not what you got You guys don't. like it either, you know. >> Yeah, but [snorts] it's not it is it's. not the big popular music that it was. when I was a kid. >> There's only five artists in the world. that are popular like all over the place. right now. >> Because it's cuz it's now micro. Right. >> Right, cuz there's too many bands, there's too much music, too much. content. >> the control of the institutions to tell. us what we like Mhm.

has has slipped. Right? And so in part, you know, like. with our version of payola that. um you know, when I was growing up in in. LA, it was KMET and KLOS that determined. or KROQ. Those are the three stations. that mattered. And they told us, "Here's Here's the. offering, boys. This is what's on tap.". Right now, you know, are you into. mathcore? Do you think that's it? It's. the death of cuz wow, now that you're.

saying that, I'm thinking the death of. radio and the death of rock and roll, Mhm. they sync. Because radio really stopped being a. thing. >> [sighs]. >> early 2000s? Early 2000s, radio stopped being a. thing. >> Well, remember when LimeWire came. through and everybody could get all the. songs that they wanted. >> That was an issue. But it it felt like. if anything, I thought at the beginning. when like Metallica was railing and Lars.

Lars Ulrich was railing against Napster. I'm like, these are just your fans. They're just your fans that are getting. your music for free. Yep. >> You're going to have to adapt, but they. still love you and you you know, don't. you make most of your money touring or I. don't know. I don't know what the. economics of it are, but they're going. to change. This is a new thing. >> micro markets, you know, just just in prog metal, there's so many. different flavors. >> I understand, but but. what we're getting at is that the radio. sort of dictated what became popular.

Yeah. Now video games. >> popular in more of a sense of a viral. way. Sure. Well, one thing is that these. clips, if your clip gets picked up by. TikTok and Instagram Reels, that's, you know, some tiny fraction of. of a song is the. catnip that leads everyone to your door. >> 100%. I've. downloaded many, many songs that way. But I I I was hanging with Misha Mansoor. who was making the Jamie claim like you. you got old grandpa. And his point.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. The thing is I I have at least the. courage to hang out with actually cool. people. He said, you know, his point was you. you're just not even watching it. correctly. And I said, "What do you. mean, Misha?" He said, "Video games. Video game the music in video games. matters much more than you imagine." And. I it's like totally right. Mhm. That. makes sense. And so, you know, what we are thinking about in get off. get off my lawn mode Right. is there was.

something lost and it hasn't been reborn. anywhere. So, that's the part that young. Jamie is not getting correct. Something was just lost. Now, lots of new stuff sprouted up. But like EDM and DJing is really where a. lot of that dancing hot chick energy. went. Mhm. That makes sense. Yeah. Right? And then like if you've ever. >> guys want to go where the dancing hot. chicks are. They will follow anywhere. Right. >> Right? And and you know, that's the.

whole. I was in uh What's this, Jamie? This is. EDC Vegas [clears throat] 2026. This is. just an example of what you're saying. like Is this uh electronic? Yep. Yeah. This is like as big as it gets. If I. look at the stage, look at all these. lights. I wonder if Molly didn't exist, how much of this would be out there. I mean It's a good question, right? >> didn't exist, how much of that music. wouldn't have gotten big, too. Oh, a. lot. Yeah. But yeah, this is really what. you're saying out. Right? And So, like I. found myself in in Vegas Except for Ella. Langley now is sort of antithesis.

antithesis to that, but. >> What is? Ella Langley. What's that? She's a biggest country artist in almost. ever now. First female with like two top 100 songs. ever. How am I so out of the loop? Um. because. >> What's the big song? Oh, I know that. song. That song's great. She's got. another one now and And has she been. around for a long time? >> Nope. She's pretty new. She's like 24, 25. >> it. Murdering it. So, part of part of what's going on is.

there's no way to monitor. Like even if you have really current. young people. they're monitoring a subset. of what's going on. Nobody Nobody's. tracking the whole thing. Right. And well, why country though? Why. is country exploding the way it's. exploding? >> Well, because we're all in a meaning. crisis. If you think about the way in. which uh. country music for example develop a. story through uh tropes very, very. quickly. Yeah. Right? And so, in part.

uh the idea is that story songs and a. return. you know, try that in a small town. uh is transgressive. Try that in a small town is a. >> [laughter]. >> It's a really powerful message. Right. >> You don't have to say a lot. And we all. want the cowboy but we all want. the girl at the county fair, you know? Um we just don't know how to get back. there. Right. We don't want a wholesome. existence. You know?

I got a. barbecue stain on my white t-shirt. That's Tim McGraw, right? Like you know, you. she's killing it in that that mini. skirt, you know? Heart don't forget. something like that. Beautiful story, very, very quickly told. Now, it's old now, but the point being. um. hip-hop. and its storytelling and the return to. spoken word and poetry and then the. legacy of the talking blues.

had a had a great run, spread worldwide. You know, you talk about whites taking. over. What do you mean whites? Like. Tamils? And you know, in indigenous Peruvians. have taken over hip-hop in in their. local sectors. Uh so, hip-hop was just this great. platform that once uh. every local culture figured out some. version of that. And I talk about um. when I entered Bollywood, there was a. song.

uh. Amma Dekh Tera Munna Bigda Jaye, you. know, Mama look, your your child is. being ruined. And it has this like um. Hey Mom, hey Dad, don't moan and groan. Why don't you learn to live with the. times and please leave us alone. Mhm. Um. and it goes. >> generation's message. >> but it's like it's delivered in uh, you. know, boogie woogie, reggae, rap, rock. and roll, and bhangra, you know, and it. it's like trying to It was the first. lame attempt at rap that I saw in a. Bollywood film. With Jackie Shroff. And.

they've all made it theirs. And so I was. hanging out in India now with a DJ. um, on his program, uh, untriggered. And. it's changing the the developing world. um, at a level that rock and roll. changed us. It was a, you know, the. music of liberation. John Mayer's point, of course, is that the guitar, the. electric guitar, retains the stylistic. characteristics. of cars in the 1950s.

And that thing was the twin experience. of having a car and having a guitar was. was personal expression and liberation. for for American males in the '50s. Mhm. So, um, yeah, I I but I think a lot about our. guitarist friends because they're. suffering. The world's greatest. guitarists are living today and nobody. cares. They all follow each other. The funny. thing is if you start following these. people on Instagram, as I do, um, I look to see which of my friends.

are following the great guitarists. And. it's other great guitarists. It's none. of my normal friends. Like, how how many of my normal friends. know who Tim Henson is, a great Texas. guitarist? Uh, You I do. This man. You know him? >> Yeah. What kind of music? Pol- um, yeah, I can't even explain it. He He pretty. much invented a genre that only he. mastered and is can explain. >> It's like Tex-Mex. melodic.

If I had a glass and I broke it, if I. took Tex-Mex and I broke it on the. ground and I reassembled it from. different things, it's completely. angular and an idea will last It's like. a psychedelic thing where it'll last for. 5 seconds and then it'll be onto the. next thing and it's just angular and. fragmented and sewn together and. beautiful and inspiring. Give me some, Jenny. >> Yeah, I know. I have to I have to play. it for you cuz the drummer and bass. player are also awesome, but. pretty much revolves around the guitar.

And you see the thing is that they're so. tight with each other. that um, you know, a better example even. than this would be this thing that they. released called Goat, which was the. thing that put them on the map. Um, and. That was great. It was right? >> Let me hear Goat. Also, Tim is just like. the loveliest human being. >> as a young boy. Boy, I miss him before. he got all the crazy neck tattoos. >> Oh. >> [music].

>> Well, it's just [music] broken out. I. don't know. That's not Tim, is it? They posted it. Says it's Tim. This is. This is a different different human. Oh. Let's hear the song. Okay. I think that's someone posting a riff. That was their account. Yeah, I know, but maybe he just put it. up there. By the way, you hear the Mexican influence? Yeah, definitely. >> So, like this is It's very unique. Very.

unique sound. >> This is who I hang with. I love these. guys. This is this this matters to me. And this is new, right? And just the way. this uh what. like Antoine de Portray in that's taking. over the world is basically you hear the. Middle East. Um, but these guys are basically into. microtones. If you take 24 beats, you. can divide it by sixes, you can divide. it by fours. Uh, so. the mathematics of rhythm, um, you know, the stuff that like only.

Vinnie Colaiuta was able to do before. people are sort of getting hip to things. that were happening on oud are now. happening on microtonal guitars. And. what it is as I see it is this is like a. this violent birth of people bored by. standard Western forms. And I'm I'm for. this. I'm not for all of the slop that you. know, like young people are always into. the coolest stuff. No, they're not. There are lame times, there are cool. times. There's really cool stuff happening now, but it's it's.

it's the fact and particularly this. Quebec kind of thing that that broke out. with these guys in costume. Um. Huh? You don't know this? Antoine de. Portrait, something like that. There's something. >> Quebec costumes? What are you doing? Look, you remember the Residents who. were this art group from San Francisco? Nobody knew who they were. They would. have giant eyeballs as heads and they. would play completely insane things like. Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, but in.

angular bizarre ways. I missed that, too. Okay. Did you miss it? I don't know where. we're going. So, Antoine de Portrait is. is this thing. that took over which doesn't sound like. anything. It's like that new thing. So, you know, you you. because. >> [music].

[music]. >> So, look at that guitarist's fretboards. >> [laughter]. >> Now, >> [laughter]. >> the mathematics. >> Okay, Jamie. The mathematics of this is that there's. this freak fact, which is that if you. take the octave, which is a of.

frequency, um you take the 12th root of it, break. it into 12 semitones, and then take 19. of them stacked. 2 to the 19 over 12 is. equal to 2.996 something. It's almost. three. And that means that you can force people. into this quantized music where you come. up with this num- number 12 which is. magical. for number theory reasons. And you can fool the ear into thinking. that 19 of these 12. semitones is a a a complete tripling of.

frequency. And because of that, we've been in even. tempered music since the time of Bach. And these guys are breaking us out. together with Jacob Collier. They're saying, "Why would you accept that as a prison?". And so, how does stuff like this become. popular? Is it just viral? Yeah. Yeah. Because suddenly you see two guys in. costumes that don't look anything like. anything. you know, making music. It There's a moment where it switches. into six beats.

per unit into four beats per unit. because it's on a 24 cycle. And suddenly you just feel good. And. also, if any of these guys get cocky, you could just swap them out. Put a mask on some new guy, and get him. in there. >> No, but it's it's anti-egoic. It's. anti-egoic. Right. Right? So, in part, you know, it's like Buckethead. Buckethead didn't want to be. Like you have trouble being Joe Rogan. I. even have trouble being Eric Weinstein. I'm afraid of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to.

be well-known. And these guys are erasing themselves. And that idea of, you know, um. it's very funny. Tim Henson, I think, has a song called Ego Death with uh. Steve Vai. Um. Ego Death is really hot because people. erasing themselves is what everybody. isn't trying to do. uh who's chasing clout. Right. >> So, And people like that. Yeah, because. it's a form or. they don't just like that. They also.

don't mind if you're chasing clout and. you say. I'm chasing some clout. Right. I'm trying to get that bag. So, what they don't want is somebody saying. like Bill Gates. Right. I'm just looking out for humanity. and global health. So, um what I'm doing I'm engineering. ticks so that they bite you and you get. allergic to red meat and I'm dropping. them off from helicopters. We're going to administer vaccines. involuntarily through ticks. Yeah, and.

mosquitoes. Yeah. So, all of this stuff. really bothers people. It's the. disingenuous Well, it's the disingenuous. >> he doesn't have any friends. You know, and he can't get any [ __ ]. anymore cuz he keeps getting caught. >> He can get it. >> [laughter]. >> But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy. [ __ ]. We did. >> happy. >> We did. We? I wasn't involved. Neither was I. Yeah, allegedly. What do you mean allegedly? I didn't go to that island. You didn't?

No. No, you were one of the one of the. people that saw through him right away. No, but he offered me partnership and I. didn't take it. And I regretted that for. a while. Cuz you would have been ching-ching. I would have been made rich or deceased. Probably both. Probably both. Yeah, I've a couple times I've been. offered real wealth and with crazy. stuff, but the Epstein thing. I don't know that I've actually said. that on a podcast. Um.

Yeah, he offered me partnership and the. only condition was that I had to get rid. of my existing partners. Like I had to stab my partners in the. back in order to become his partner. >> Oh, yeah. So, he'd own you. Yeah. >> Yeah, it's like sh- show me that you're. I don't want to sidetrack this, but I'll. come back, but these two. 333-year-old aliens, time travelers. >> Yeah. And so, [laughter] they cannot be. easily replaced. Yes, they can. That's. horse [ __ ] But, look, I'll make a.

prediction. If these guys haven't been. unmasked. >> even know you're going to unmask these. guys and you're going to find out that. they've got Middle Eastern hair. >> don't unmask them. They already unmasked. Banksy. Yeah. >> Can't we have some [ __ ] mystery in. this world, dammit? I think they're. cool. I like that music. That was fun. That was fun. Um. >> I like viral things, too. I like things. that just spread just from weirdness, you know? Someone sends it to me. That's. one one of the things that I love about. Spotify. If I'm listening to something. weird, it'll suggest something weird. You know, like that I've never heard of.

before, bands I've never heard of. before. And then all of a sudden, I. click on it, the suggestion thing. That's how I get new music now. Or I use. um. what's that [ __ ] app? Shazam. I use. Shazam. If I'm at a, you know, pool hall. or something, something cool comes on. I'm like, "Ooh, what is that?" See, I. I do that, but then I can end up in. these ruts. Like, for example, I really like songs. that go between A minor and E major. And. that is. So, it just gives me more and more of. it. Yeah, nerd. You're a music nerd.

>> [snorts]. >> Listen, that's your algorithm. There's. nothing wrong with that. >> Okay. You're a mixed martial arts nerd. >> I am. >> I know. I'm also There's a lot of things. that are way more boring than that, pool. I'm I watch professional pool. probably three or four hours a day. Yeah? Yeah. That's how I escape. I escape in the geometry and the. movements, the patterns. Dude, you. should have seen the comedians in the. physics department yesterday. >> Oh, that must have been I must have been. amazing. >> Duncan.

>> Duncan and Kurt together. First of all, together, they are the [ __ ] dynamic. duo. They are such a good duo cuz. they're both sarcastic and they're. they're both like heavily engaged in. satire. >> as far as they could. Yeah. But, then um. I don't know whether I can tell these. stories or not. >> Tell these stories. Tell them. What. happened? What Kurt do? So, [laughter] part of the. [ __ ] I love that guy. He's so awesome. So, I I love that he's a real person. Whenever I he comes into the mothership.

green room, I'm like, "Yes.". Give me a dose. >> real. He he gave me some wild. anti-Israel stuff, I think. I couldn't. tell whether it was pro or anti. Um he So, at the end, there was an. experimentalist who was like, "Come to. my Come to my parlor. I'll show you my etchings." No, no, no, cryogenic giant vacuum tubes from hell. or whatever. So, we all went down there. And so, we're in the basement of the physics. department. You can tell the difference. between the theory floor and the like.

the part where they actually do things. And these guys were just, you know, were. effectively at 77° before abs- above. absolute zero with uh conditions that. only occur in deep space inside of this. thing coated in like tin foil. And so, these guys are just cracking. jokes about growing weed and and uh. >> [laughter]. >> What happens if you put hydroponic weed. in the chamber? But, the other thing is is that. comedians [snorts] are really.

they're really intellectual nerds and a. lot of them, not all of them. Those two. guys are. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And they really wanted to know, "Okay, what is it that you guys are. doing down here and how do I. understand?". >> But, Duncan's Duncan's amazing. >> Very curious. >> Although, he he drew a completely. pornographic. >> [laughter]. >> He's taking notes. Yeah. We send it to Jamie cuz Kurt sent it to. me. This is the notes Duncan was taking. during Physics text. >> [laughter]. >> Cuz I'm like doing battle. a little bit with the There's one. extremely smart string theorist in the.

audience named Jacques Distler. And so, almost all of the interactions between. Jacques and myself were. we were both being very. collegial, but it was, you know, it was. pretty pretty hot. I sent it to you, Jamie. And uh it's a he says, "While you. were doing that, I did a little sketch. of you. I can figure out [clears throat] your. exact anatomy. >> [laughter]. >> It's a gift.". Well, you need something like that. >> That's the last talk he's ever coming. to. No, he'll come back to every one of.

them. No, actually, I was really trying. to hook So, he's taking notes. Oh, no, please. >> volume. Joe. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you, Joe. >> [snorts]. >> Hey guys, I got some other things to do. this afternoon. It's been great. OKAY. BYE. >> [laughter].

>> OH MY GOD. SO. >> OH, JESUS. But yeah, I wanted. You know, CP. did this famous essay called The Two. Cultures. And it was about how. um literary intellectuals and scientific. intellectuals used to be one group, and. then they they moved apart, and so now. we can't hear each other across the. chasm. I. I really wanted to create a pipeline.

of not the seven scientists we see on. all of the talks on the podcasts, but. like. choose who you want to talk to. Who's. doing cool [ __ ]. The comedians belong in our science. departments. Otherwise, how are people going to know. what's going on? There's there's funny. [ __ ] happening. Well, And by the way, the UFO thing that's now. blowing up. >> Mhm. >> [snorts]. >> There's going to be some crazy science.

collision with the UFO narrative. There's no way of stopping it at this. point. So, you've turned a corner on. this. Let's talk about that, because uh. I saw you on Jesse Michel's show, and. you were talking about how just a few. years ago you thought that the entire. narrative was complete nonsense. Probably 5 6 years ago by now. And what. changed? Um. there was no way to explain. So Jesse was going on and on about I.

said, "Jesse, you're a smart guy." And. you you know, I had I often would call. him the the back alley scholar. So he. knew a lot of stuff um. that was sort of forbidden knowledge. And. he wouldn't be quiet about it. So I said, "Okay, I'm going to disabuse. you of the idea that you're actually. into something." And I realized very. quickly. at a minimum there is a massive. denied program. Like usually called a.

special access program. Mhm. One or. more. There's no way to synchronize that. number of people who've had experiences. that are so similar. And there's a lot of stuff that I. couldn't make sense of. And what. attracted me in a certain sense. um. was I couldn't come up with any. explanation. So rare. I usually have exactly the opposite. problem, which is I come up with too. many explanations. I can't come up with a single. explanation that makes sense of what I.

now know. And also the fact that the. government outreach to me and to Sam. Harris and to Lex Friedman. And you know, there was this thing where. these guys who checked out. um said, "There's going to be a massive. disclosure, and we need people to. disseminate these things to the public, and you have a share of the of the. public who listens to you. And we need to get you informed so that. you can help mediate the disclosure." So. what prompted this change in narrative? What's going on between the Yeah. the.

government? >> Yeah. We don't know. We don't know Look, we don't know what the thing or things. is are. yet. Um some of it is so again so low quality. that it's embarrassing to be seen with. it. So my colleagues who don't want to. take this seriously. uh use that like okay, so you're you're. you're you're you're now on the little. green men train. And I said, "No, I'm on the special. access program train. There is there's. for sure special access program or.

programs. that have UFO on the side of them that. may or may not have aliens or craft or. non-human intelligence in them. It may. be that it's decoys. It may be I don't. know what it is. There's no way to deny that there's like. a giant lump under the carpet. And what what prompted you to change. your opinion and and and decide that. there is some sort of a special access. program? When I started coming in contact with. totally sober people from reasonable.

walks of life who would say the craziest. things to me and a lot of them checked. and they didn't yet know each other. Like what kind of crazy things? Um let. me take somebody who's public. Brandon. Fugal for example, uh. was at a dinner. where he started talking about being. visited by a craft a few feet over the. his head that came over the mesa. and his head of security was catatonic. standing in the back of a pickup truck. unable to move.

And. it was just way too specific. And a shared experience that multiple. people had had. Right? And so you know the the joke of. course is that. uh the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch or or. you know whatever this. >> Right. Um. there's real stuff going on there and. there's nonsense BS that the History. Channel has packaged to come up with a. salacious series and they're one is. funding the other.

So, I don't know what that is, but like. the some of these injuries are real. And Injuries? Yeah, like Gary Nolan. talking about. people reporting. you know, he Gary Nolan told me a story. that somebody had said that a ball of. energy. would come and enter the body and. move around and then leave. And he said, you know, the craziest. thing is is that when I inspected the. tissue.

there was a path of necrosis. that can't be explained. Like something that shows up on imaging. And. it's. Gary's a really smart serious guy. I can. check a lot of the things that he says. scientifically. Why would he say. something like that? I mean, I didn't see it myself, but. Well, he's also done some very strange. work on material science. Right. And. where he's analyzed particles or little.

little pieces of metal and alloys that. have come from wreckage from the 1970s. and 60s. >> Yeah, that I don't know the providence. Like he'll carry around a little. thing and he'll show it to me and I'll. say, you know, but you know, there's no. combination. of of. of materials and alloys that that this. matches that we know how to produce. And I say, okay, it doesn't mean. anything to me. Again, it's just it's. all I I have no At this point, I have no. primary. um contact.

with anything anomalous. I just have all. sorts of secondary stuff. And by the. way, the thing that you saw with the. Jesse Michaels in American Alchemy. um. boy, did that get a response inside the. government. That particular episode. How. so? I had a lot of people who had stopped. talking to me. about UFOs who suddenly. you know, I had like eight calls. immediately after it aired. "Hey Eric, just thought I'd catch up. with you." And I was like, "Oh, okay.". There was a huge discussion inside. Mhm.

Um and the first. uh. without getting into particulars, the. first official outreach. Like really official outreach. The. checks. In the wake of that episode. And I'm not under any NDAs. Nobody's. told me anything that I can't discuss. But that that may change. Um. one thing that's very. clear to me is that when I hear. something from many sources, I I don't. need to protect it anymore. It's already.

out. Okay? I have now heard the White Sands story. from many sources. This is the one where the crafts. hovered over the base, shut down the. nuclear program. Is that it? I'm just going to say what I can say. that's fuzzed out that can't be traced. to anybody. >> Okay. Um. I was very upset with the shutdown of. the El Paso airspace.

That was recently. Yeah, it was supposed. to be supposed to be we had a problem. with cartel drones. Right. I don't. believe that. I think Texas is another name for New. Mexico. I think El Paso is a name for. White Sands. Can we get a map of the United States. that can focus on. White Sands and El Paso? I I think we have a problem that we've. lost control of our airspace. You think this is part of what happened. in New Jersey as well? >> [snorts].

>> I can't say. as much because what I know, no. What happened around New Jersey. I don't have from as many sources that I. feel comfortable saying that this is. fuzzed out. I can fuzz out the El Paso. story. Nobody has told me that El Paso. was shut down because of the problem at. White Sands. Okay. People have said things about New Jersey. that is All right. All right. >> So, there's El Paso. >> here, White Sands right above it. How.

far away is that? >> my guess is about an hour. By driving? >> Yeah, let's see. It's probably 60, 70, 80 miles most. Okay. So, I don't know what's going on, but my. my guess is. So, on Piers Morgan, I said this thing, um. which is that New Mexico. is the connector of the nuclear story, the Epstein story, and the UFO story. They're all going to come together.

Remember when we were only talking about. the island? Mhm. I. Somehow, I think I was the first person. to seize on this. There's this thing. that isn't an interview, which is Steve. Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein. how to respond to rehabilitate it. And if you can find this, this is.

>> I've seen it. Okay. It's very weird. So, he says. um. You want to know about why I got Zorro. Ranch in New Mexico. Can we play this. clip? Can you find. I think Jesse repackaged it after I. pointed it out. But this is the story that like somehow. that we we're so hung up about sex.

We're either angry about trafficking or. we're getting off on the idea that all. these rich people, um. are going to get their comeuppance or, you know, we keep turning the Epstein. story into something other than a. scientific espionage story, which is one. of its one of its facets. It's one component. >> It's one component. >> Right. Yeah, but we but it doesn't. excite us. that this is a guy spying. Control of science, Joe, is not something that is officially a. big issue. And it is a massive issue.

It's not publicly a big issue. >> That's correct, yeah. >> And he clearly had a. >> let's back up. >> big interest in So, why did I buy a. ranch in New Mexico 1993? So, that's. gives you some sense. So, I would have. funded it in 1990. Uh. Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in New. Mexico, was losing all its scientists. And Los Alamos was where Oppenheimer and. where the where the a lot of the the. nuclear weapons program, the bomb was.

>> That's where the Manhattan Project. >> Manhattan Project was Yes. at Los. Alamos, and you bought your property out. in New Mexico to be near that? >> Yes, because the scientists were going. to be they cut the funding for high. energy physics. But the people who worked in Los Alamos. would still be in the Santa Fe area. They cut that because the end of the. This was the Cold War dividend, right? I. don't remember exactly why. It was. because again, people thought there was. that physics and high energy physics. really wasn't that important. Because. that was about nuclear weapons. No, it. was because they were trying to they.

decided it was maybe not right. This was. the same time that Murray Gell-Mann. came up with the term quark, q u a r k. He he picked it out of a old poem, the. word quark. But it was something it was. mysterious. So, they were starting to understand in. the '90s that the in the our world of. the physical world, there was things. that were just unexplainable. They called it strange things. You gave. it a name. You gave it some. characteristics. You called it it had charm was one of.

the terms. It had a charm. It had a. flavor. It had a color. But nobody really No one, Mr. Bannon, understood what it was. Just like the financial system. And you. wanted to investigate that. I I wanted. to see if we could build tools so others. smarter than me could help investigate. it. >> And that was the beginning of your. concept of the Santa Fe Institute. >> Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded. to do study in this type of Can you Can.

these areas of strange things be. described by some form of mathematics? Okay. Now, what you're seeing there. is fascinating. Like, just take By the. way, very well isolated, exactly the bit. that I wanted. In that interview or that training, he. claims to have founded the Santa Fe. Institute. Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think, in 1984, not 1990 or 1993.

Bannon clearly knows more about why. these scientists were being defunded. than does the person who buys this. property. Now, that property is not only. close to Los Alamos, it's also close to. Sandia National Laboratory. What you Like, people said to me, "Eric, you said he was an idiot. He's clearly. very knowledgeable. Um you can see there that you were. wrong." I was like, that is an actor. That is not.

anyone smart with. proximity to Murray Gell-Mann and. others. Like, he he knew Murray. Gell-Mann well. Murray Gell-Mann didn't. name quarks in 1990. That goes back to like the '60s when. George Zweig called them aces and. Gell-Mann called them quarks for three. quarks from muster mark that came out of. James Joyce. So, he's he's just. repeating stuff that he doesn't. understand. And why did he buy the house or a ranch?

To be close to the. scientists whose funding was cut. The people who make weapons and who do. high energy physics. who had the rug pulled out from under. them. by the United States when they won the. Cold War by putting this pressure on the. Soviet Union. Like, there's no thing more important. than theoretical physicists, you idiots. And And you don't fund these people and. you don't watch them. Like, the. Department of Energy is supposed to have.

counterintelligence. to stop creeps. from hanging around the national labs, which is America's secret university. system. Hello. And. that's what he was doing. He was buying a property to be close to. the national labs in New Mexico that. make the weapons and that are in charge. of trying to figure out the future. So, if you think about the national labs. is this parallel thing to the university.

system. But, it's the secret part where. you have to be American and you have to. have a security clearance and all this. kind of stuff. Epstein set up a listening post. Now, what are What's the UFO story? The. UFO story is all about nukes. And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge, Massachusetts? The analog of Zorro Ranch. is named One Brattle Square. It's right in the heart of Harvard. Square. You know, I know it like the. back of my hand.

It's a 7-minute walk to the Science. Center. The Harvard Science Center. on floors 3, 4, and 5 is where the math. department is. And who was Epstein's initial contact in. the math department? It wasn't Martin Nowak who he funded. It was a different guy named Benedict. Gross. Dick Gross was an expert in number. theory and in elliptic curves. And elliptic curves are what power the. cryptography behind Bitcoin, behind.

public keys. You're talking about a guy. who was setting up listening posts. >> [snorts]. >> next to extremely sensitive stuff that. we've stupidly left unprotected in the. open university system or defunded in. our national lab. >> you say listening posts, like what do. you mean? Bugs on the wall? >> no, no. No? He just remained in contact with these. people? Joe, you've got real money. Guys with real money use dinner.

Dinner is an incredible thing. I watched Peter Thiel use dinner. Fly people in for dinners. You put people up in a nice hotel for 3. nights. Serve them amazing food from a private. chef. You get a black car to collect. them. They'll tell you anything. I don't think that mean that Peter was. doing this in an evil way, but I watched. dinner after dinner after dinner as. people disgorged all they knew because. they were so happy.

they're getting a $200 bottle of wine. and being treated like humans. You know, like respected. So, in part, you have to understand that. dinner in and of itself or a mansion. or first-class ticket. is all it takes to get people to start. talking. Uh Jeffrey Epstein was CIA. The. communications network at Zorro Ranch. prove it. The DOJ's own files showed. Epstein built a military-grade encrypted.

link to satellite orbit at Zorro Ranch. The contractor who built it now holds a. Pentagon missile defense contract. So, remember. Jeffrey Epstein is a construct. Uh-huh. You know, there's this whole question. about it, like why won't Jews talk about. Jeffrey Epstein and the sex [ __ ]. It's like as if I haven't been on this. since 2004. Yeah, no one can accuse you of not. talking about it. If they can, they're just being. ignorant. No, they're being a [ __ ].

because it used to be super dangerous. This was [snorts] like one of the really. costly things is to say. >> that was though? This satellite. encrypted. All right, let's let's go there, but I'm. a little bit nervous. Um. Why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all. of these people much richer than him. into his orbit? That's the question you should be. asking.

So here's my theory. Okay. I'll just be careful here. Okay. What happens when you become a. billionaire? I don't know. Not there. Nowhere close. What happens is is that you find out. that it's not what you thought it was. First of all, you now have staff. everywhere. You can't move around easily because you. need a security detail.

Right? I first met Peter Thiel, I said, "Wow, your security detail on this beach is. amazing. I can't even tell where they. are." He says, "Am I supposed to have a. security detail?" I'm like, "Peter, you've got to be kidding." Now. he's got one. So the first thing is is that you find. you you lose your privacy, you lose your. freedom of movement, you've got a. retinue of people who have to be. constantly maintained, they're under. your roof. And you're like, "This isn't what I. signed up for. I wanted to be rich." And. you're like, "Well, you are rich, you. can buy things.". Well, you can't buy privacy, you can't.

buy freedom, you can't buy anonymity, all these things that you want. And you can't buy the ability to do. fun naughty stuff. I'm not talking about. little kids. I'm saying like. if you're going to take drugs, you're at. risk of, you know, having everybody want. to tell the story. If you want to have. uh. a menage, you're at the same risk. So, the question becomes. what do I do to to get what I thought I. was going to do, which is the right to. have freedom over my own life and to. misbehave in fun ways, whatever.

Nobody can figure out how to do it. Jeffrey Epstein could do it. Now, why is. it that he could do it? Well, who's spoken to the contractors. who built his island? It's the most obvious thing to do. If I. was an investigative journalist, that's. what I'd do. I'd talk to like the. plumbers, the maids, all of the people. who are just working for a living. Those are the people who constantly leak. information about their employers.

Well, who's the only person who has a. who has the ability to build something? The CIA has its own. has its own construction company. Sovereigns, countries, nations have the. ability to do stuff. where. they know how to keep things under. wraps. If you think about S4, I guarantee you there's a men's room at. S4.

Well, who cleans it? That's a really important question. Because that's the weak link. And so, rich people haven't figured out. how to be rich. That's what everybody was attracted to. in that upper income bracket. That he. would provide them with experiences. He. would provide them with things that they. couldn't figure out how anybody could. provide. Because they were dealing with a state.

I assure you that the Sultan of Brunei. knows how to do stuff. Because he's both an individual. and a state. Most of us. are either in this sort of black ops. world. or. we're dreaming about. being very rich. >> [snorts]. >> Or just norm normal human beings. The very rich are very disappointed.

Epstein felt rich, as I said before, in. a movie sense. He had freedom. He could say and do things that other. people couldn't. You know, Elon. is constantly tripping over the fact. that. I I think he's a wild guy. I'm up for wild guys. I want cowboy. billionaires, cowboy physicists, cowboy. everything. But in general, we don't want cowboys.

And you know, again, this has nothing to. do with little kids. That's a different. thing. Right. But if you want to go take drugs, take. drugs. If you want to have a menage, have a. menage. Fine. I don't want to hear about it. I don't I. don't spill the tea. I can't stand this. culture. Epstein knew how to keep quiet stuff. quiet. And why is that? His product, as. I've said before, was silence. If you want a really dangerous question, ask the question. um.

what did the people who were in his. direct orbit have an unusually high. number of disappearances. around them? Did they? I don't know. But it's a dangerous question. I've. never investigated it, but that's. Have you ever seen Yeah, everybody talks. about Eyes Wide Shut now. Mhm. You. notice that nobody talks about Crimes. and Misdemeanors? Where Woody Allen is directly in his. orbit? God, I don't even know if I've seen that. movie. There is a scene where Martin.

Landau. and Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair. of brothers. I think that they only meet. on screen once. And Martin Landau is having an affair. and the woman has decided that she has. rights. And Martin Landau is a very wealthy. ophthalmologist or something like that. And he has a brother who's a shiv. shivarker. Shivarker is being the Yiddish word for. a tough guy. And.

it's one of the most Can Can we find. Jerry Orbach, Martin Landau, Crimes and. Misdemeanors. It's the most. blood-curdling. so well done. What's the scene. description though? You didn't really. get to it. >> Well, they're only in one If they're. only in one scene together, they'll be. at a I haven't seen it in ages, but it. My memory is that they're at a house. walking around a pool and then they walk. inside to the pool house. And there's a resentment that the. brother who's in the life.

um. is only called to the house. occasionally. Right? And it's this way in which the. gentile. and the people who can get things done. that you're not allowed to do in the. within the law are connected. And so. Woody Allen is clearly writing this from. personal experience. He has some. interaction between. being in high society. and knowing shivarkers. And I actually.

knew um his old Woody Allen's old. producer who was the father of a friend. of mine, so. a guy named Jack Grossberg. And Jack Grossberg was a. epitome of a tough Jew in Hollywood. who'd deal with the Teamsters or when. there was a labor dispute. And you know, he wasn't in the life, but. he was a guy who could stare down a. mafioso. Um. I think that in part Woody Allen is. writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was. providing, which was a measure of. silence. Is this a No, no, no.

>> Oh, okay. Well, then I don't know. No, we're looking for Martin Landau. and Jerry Orbach. in Crimes and Misdemeanors. Yeah, I don't know. That's going to be. hard to find cuz it's uh Yep, that one. >> Maybe right there. >> Yep. Okay. I think that this is the scene that. nobody's talking about. I don't know, but she's killing me. But.

Want me to have somebody talk to her? Like what? Straighten her out. What do you mean, threaten her? That's. all I need. How else do you expect to keep her. quiet? Can you turn that up? No, this is. as low as I can get it, unfortunately. >> Okay. Well, wise guy, what do you suggest? What did you call me for? I don't know. I I hoped you'd have more. experience with something like this.

You called me because you needed some. dirty work done. That's all you ever. call for. Look how petty you are. You've staked me plenty of times. I. don't forget my obligations. Threatening her will only make it worse, Jack. Okay, forget about it. What do you want. me to say? How the hell can I forget about it? I'm. fighting for my life. This woman's going to destroy everything. I've built. That's what I'm saying, Judah. If the.

woman won't listen to reason, then you. go on to the next step. What? Threats? Violence? What are we. talking about here? She can be gotten. rid of. I mean, I know a lot of people. Money. will buy whatever's necessary. >> even going to comment on that. That's. mind boggling. Well, what did you want me to do when. you called me? Not to do dirty work, despite what you think. Anyway, it's got beyond just Miriam now. She's. She's talking financial doings. I.

I'm out of ideas. I don't know what I expected from you, Jack, but. You know, you're not aware of what goes on in this. world. I mean, you sit up here with your. four acres. >> me that crap. You know I don't want to. hear about my sister. >> your rich friends and out there in the. real world, it's a whole different. story. >> Come on. I've met a lot of characters from when I. had the restaurant. >> I've heard these stories before. >> Avenue, from Atlantic City, and I'm not so high class that I can. avoid looking at reality. I can't afford. to be aloof.

When you come to me with a hell of a. problem and then you get high handed on. me. Jack, I don't need to be high handed. I. haven't been sleeping nights. I'm. nervous up all okay? >> Okay. Okay, forget I said anything. Let me just get something straight here. Am I understanding you right? I mean, are you suggesting getting rid of her? You won't be involved,

but I'll need some cash. What will they do? What will they do? They'll handle it. I can't believe I'm talking about a. human being, Jack. She's not an. insect. You don't just step on her. I know. Playing hardball was never your game. You never liked to get your hands dirty. But apparently this woman is for real.

and this thing isn't just going to go. away. I can't do it. I can't think that way. So, you while everybody's watching. Kubrick, this is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit. This is what Epstein was. He was a.

starker. He was a science spy. He was a starker. He had buttons. And we're just all pretending like we. have no memory of this, no idea about. how we're all connected, how the highest. in society are connected to the people. who get things done. And blackmail. Blackmail is a lot like we're over. indexed on. in my opinion. Again, who am I? I'm just. a guest, but. >> But this is this. assumption. Well, I I was very early.

saying he was a construct when nobody. would listen. >> Here's the next piece of it. I think he had buttons. He had button men at his control. He made problems disappear. Things went. away. That's how you make sure. that you have the experience of being a. king rather than a billionaire. The billionaires had more money than. him. But they didn't have the ability to make. their problems go away.

And by the way, I'm not suggesting that all the people. in his orbit were availing themselves of. this as a service. But if I was a competent investigator, I. would be talking to Woody Allen and. saying, >> [snorts]. >> "What did you mean by that scene?". Look, because you think that scene is. directly connected to Woody Allen's. relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. >> No, I think that that scene is directly. connected. to the connection between Hollywood and.

Teamsters and unions and organized. crime. There are people who know how to make. things happen that aren't within the. law. What is the mafia? We go we watch all. these mafia pictures, right? Mhm. The mafia is about contract enforcement. when you can't use the courts. That doesn't sound like what the mafia. is, but that's what it is. It's a. business. What happens when you're in an. illegal business and you can't enforce a. contract?

Right? Yeah. >> You have to use muscle. So we we use gentile he like he says. she can be taught we should you want me. to talk to her. Uh we can handle it. Th- This is the gentile language. of roughing somebody up, killing somebody, and making problems go away. So the mafia is about business. It's not.

about violence. Okay, so his connection to scientist. though. What was the purpose of that? We don't know, but I keep saying. >> My assumption is is that he was a uh a. clearinghouse. That somebody set him up at fair. expense. I'm going to say nine-figure. expense. So I think this was a. nine-figure fortune, hundreds of. millions. And. what it had was it had the trappings of.

multi-billionaire. It had trillionaire. written all over it for a nine-figure. fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off. of what it was. And I believe that that. that was only possible because there was. a collection of sovereigns behind him. I don't think it was one nation. I think. it was a bunch of countries. And the most obvious country is not. Israel. It's the US because he was. operating on US soil.

Do I think Israel was involved? Certainly. Do I think that the UK was. involved? I do. Saudi Arabia? I do. I think that this was a massive piece of. structure con-. confused with a sex scandal and a. blackmail operation. We're we're all. sort of. taking the bait. So, the sex scandal and all the sex. stuff was sort of keep people happy and. give people a place to go to where they. could have these experiences. If you're. dealing with physicists or some.

high-end scientist guy. they don't have access to this. They. probably never been with a beautiful. woman in their life. All of a sudden. they're hanging out with champions. again. I'm not talking about you, [ __ ]. No, I'm. >> I'm sure you're fine. Ain't talking. about love. Let's but let's be a. realistic. Most of these guys aren't. they're not hot. Right? And then all of. a sudden they're around 10s who are. giving them back massages and drugs are. being used and there's this feeling of. anonymity. >> Yeah. of safety. You can get away with this.

Everybody else is doing it. It's been. going on for decades. It's fine. This is. a place you go and it's fun and they. look forward to it and they probably. also do have intellectual discussions. cuz you are surrounded by Who wouldn't. want in? Right. Right. So, that's how he ropes you in. So, what is his. why scientists and what would be the. benefit of having access to these. scientists and having this place on. Zorro Ranch and being able to talk to. these people? Think about it from the. perspective of who is doing the.

constructing rather than the. constructed. So, he's the construct. Okay. He's an incompetent. He just lied to Steve Bannon. Mis- You. see him touch his face, classic tell of. lying. Um. >> Touching your face is a classic tell of. lying? If you look at what he just did, he Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 100%. So, he's lying about the. information or he's lying about his. depth. >> liar. Yes, he's lying about his depth of. knowledge. >> Okay. So, how did I know he was a. construct? In part one of the things. like they're dumb tells that we give.

away. One of his was he was supposed to be a. currency trader. When we say we're. trading currency, we're not trading. currency. We're trading. what are called spot contracts that are. to be settled with an exchange of. currency in 2 days time. Right? So, in other words, if we if we. if I do a euro trade, it's really a. dollar euro trade, and you and I are. going to trade dollars for euros, and we. agree to do it in 2 days time. And then. if you want to keep the position on, you. exchange that contract for a contract. that will follow. to erase that contract and form a new.

contract with which pushes it out 2. days. You call that rolling things over. Okay. He didn't know that dollar Canada was on. a 1-day contract rather than a 2-day. contract where everything else. So, in. other words, there was an anomaly. And anybody in currency trading would. have known that. Or I forget whether he didn't know that. uh. trading pounds for dollars is called. cable in the business. So, he there were. there were just dumb tells. that he didn't know about foreign. exchange.

Yeah? Mhm. So, you know, he's claiming. to be an FX hedge fund manager to me, and there were there were stupid tells. like that. >> Right. >> he like he knows way too much about my. exactly particular. specialty in mathematics. Like. the number of people could have come. from would be five or fewer. Um so, technically what I did my thesis. on is something called self-dual. Yang-Mills theory, which is about.

every force other than gravity is a. Yang-Mills force. Except my thesis was really about. gravity, and I didn't disclose it, and only. people very very close to me knew that. that's what it was about. He was obsessed with gravity. And. he shows up, I think, in the Harvard. math department in 2002 with Dick Gross. And. clearly he was talking to people in the. Cambridge mathematical physics world.

who would have been you know there. There's something called the. Chern-Simons theory which is. mistakenly associated closely with. Yang-Mills theory but is really all. about gravity. And that my work really shows that. there is a parent theory that has. Chern-Simons theory and gravity as its. two consequences. He knows about that. without knowing anything about the. structure in the subject matter.

He knows about the history of my stuff. and something called Cyborg Witten. theory. He doesn't know anything concrete. How. does he know all this stuff? He was in my world. And he was very focused you know on. I I met him through Jess Staley. um who was at JP Morgan. Now Jess Staley is deeply implicated in. this. I didn't know that at the time. And.

Jeff Epstein has been mirroring my. entire life, everything that I do. And I became well known when I was. writing these essays for edge.org and he. was in with John Brockman at the. Brockman Literary Agency. Uh. when I got married uh the rabbi came. from Harvard Hillel which was a building. now called Rosovsky Hall which he put. together with Les Wexner's money. Um. he was. funding probably the conference at the. Perimeter Institute that we did on the. financial crisis.

At every turn in my life since I was a. young man. Jeffrey Epstein was. there. in the background even though I only. meet him once. Why do you think that is? Because we're interested in the exact. same thing. And what is that? The. the most powerful stuff in the universe. Why is he interested in that if he. doesn't know the What am I What do I. care about? I care about finance and. financial markets. like about the CPI. I care about the fate of Israel. I care. about.

uh evolutionary theory. I care about. mathematics that goes like. geometry, like the geometry of elliptic. curves, but really more in differential. geometry. You care about physics. Every time that I care. and I care about the smart the world's. smartest people at a functional level, not the people with the highest IQ, but. the people who are irreverent enough. to actually move the needle. So, he and I uh we're just. we're interested in where's the action?

Where's the high-end intellectual action. in the world that actually moves things? And you know. quite frankly. he was meeting in my offices in San. Francisco while I wasn't aware of it in. 2017. I didn't know that. Meeting in your offices, meaning he went. to your office and met with who? Well, I. with Peter. That's in the records. About. you? No, I don't know. He he.

hopefully not. I I know that I'm in an. email that he sends Peter late in the. story. But I I I'm not going to discuss. specifics, but. no, I was telling Peter not to deal with. him and Peter thought I was overblowing. the the danger. I I I he scared me because. I know. what element he came from. That was not a refined person. That was. a scary, scary person.

That that was a person who came. you know, like the Hesh character on The. Sopranos? Mhm. Or Moe Greene in the in The Godfather. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that element. And you recognized that immediately. I. Well, that was my point in in bringing. up crimes and misdemeanors. It's not like I don't know people. I understand that all this. But, what do. you think his purpose was? Like, so.

getting connected to all these. scientists, being around all this. knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't. understand like what was the end game? >> Can I get another drink? Absolutely. >> Thank you, sir. Okay, can I share this. article with you? >> Please do. Okay, this was the one I just. pulled up a second ago. >> could get another ice cube, too, that. would be great. I would just say this. Um. Jeff can get us an ice cube, please. I would just down here this kind of this. is a long article. I believe this most. of this comes from the Epstein files. that came out on the DOJ's website. Uh. this the woman who wrote this, she's a.

former Boston Globe and New York Times. reporter. Uh also LA Times. The summary here is what I was kind of. getting at cuz it kind of it's two or. three paragraphs, but it explains a lot. of what you're asking. here. Standard framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a. Mossad asset is well supported. Robert. Maxwell, Ghislaine's father, sold Israel. backdoor promise software to Sandia. National Laboratories in 1985. His. eldest daughter, Christine Maxwell, built the FBI's post-9/11.

counterterrorism data warehouse through. her company, Chil- Chiliad. Uh Isabel. Maxwell, Christine's twin sister, co-founded. Comtouch with Israel Unit. 8200 alumni. Ghislaine ran the human intelligence. operation, the Israel intelligence. network, around both Maxwell and Epstein. is documented and substantial. But, the. intelligence infrastructure supporting. Epstein and Maxwell at Zorro Ranch. points somewhere else or to somewhere.

additional. It points to United States. military intelligence, plain and simple. The contractor who built his encrypted. link to Orbit is American, headquartered. in Georgia, and now holds a Missile. Defense Agency contract. The satellite. uplink was authorized by an American FCC. license. The project was managed out of. New York office. The man who recruited. Epstein as a child served in the. American OSS and his own son was in. charge of the Federal Justice Department. when Epstein died or didn't in its.

custody. >> and his father, so that's referring to. The man whose ranch provided the ideal. relay point was OSS built American. missile guidance systems and military. drones and just up the road another. former OSS guy Carl Engler sold his New. Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all. time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather. Hmm. So, this is what I've been trying to say. all along. The only country that I'm. absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey.

Epstein is is us. You can't operate here. Look, right now we are in the middle of. endless anti-Semitic Christmas. Just goes on forever. And. you can. >> [snorts]. >> you look at Jeffrey Epstein. I have no. question he was directly connected to. Israel, you know? Um. but first and foremost, I believe that he and and I hate when we.

use the word asset. You should use a vaguer word because. those technical things like who's an. agent, who's an operator, uh. agent is a word used differently by the. FBI and CIA. Every time we try to sound. like we're cool, like we know what the. intelligence community actually is, we. make mistakes because we say something. that it becomes deniable. You know, so like there's a concept of. knock, non-official cover. Mhm. You.

know, if you say somebody, you know, is. a knock and you and you you guess the. wrong distinction, they can say, "No, he wasn't.". Was he an asset? Was I'm sure that has a. technical meaning. You don't mean it. technically. You mean, was he in any way affiliated. with the intelligence community? And. just not just the intelligence. community. One of the ways that the. intelligence community functions is as a. cover. for the special operations community. Right? Covert operations is something.

the CIA does through ground branch. that is not intelligence. So, we call it intelligence and we give. them a free pass all the time. No, those that those are the guys who do. the wet work. That's a paramilitary organization. Right. So, my claim is. that Epstein. is a major piece of structure having. nothing to do with the actor that they. hired. Okay. So, you think Epstein is.

essentially just a construct figurehead. of an intelligence gathering. organization. >> No. No? Epstein is a construct first first of. all. Second of all, there is an. intelligence part of the intelligence. community. and there's a covert operations part of. the intelligence community. Okay. Covert. operations is not intelligence. I know. it's under that roof. Right. >> That is totally wrong. Got it. Right.

Okay. So, if you want bad things to. happen to somebody, you don't call. intelligence cuz that's just human. intelligence or signals intelligence or. whatever. You're not going to call a cryptographer. to make a problem go away. Right. What does this have to do with. the science community? One, we have huge amounts of power. The United States is terribly configured. because we pretend that we're okay doing. everything through our university.

system, which shouldn't be done. in an open setting. Like you have to be. honest about the fact that we're badly. configured. What do you mean by that? >> We didn't know how deadly physics was. When Rutherford in 1911 said that. there's a neutron, nobody I'm sure I'm sure nobody said to. him, "Oh my god, you've ended the plan. Now new humanity is doomed." So, it used. to be the case that physics was. something that was like interesting and. fun. But, now it's like the most deadly thing. you can imagine, as well as being.

interesting. And a quick timeline, too. If you stop and think about that, we're. talking about. >> Yeah. So, literally. Yeah. >> 41 years. So, my claim is that we are walking. around right now. with all of these extremely deadly ninja. prince priests. in our physics departments and our math. departments, who don't even know that. they're deadly ninja priests. They've never worked on something. classified. They've never solved. problems for our government. But, in.

part, we fund our science our scientists. as part of a complex cryptic arrangement. worked out by Vannevar Bush. that is now remembered by essentially no. one. So, the idea is. you people, Teller, Ulam, Feynman, Oppenheimer, Von Neumann, you are dev group you're you're. SEAL Team Six of the human mind. You're. Delta. And most of the time you're going to.

teach classes. You know, it's like Indiana Jones is you. know, an archaeologist with a bow tie, and then he's running around with a whip. and, you know, killing people and Right. >> [snorts]. >> Okay. That's what physicists and. mathematicians are. That's why we're funded. That's why the Department of Energy. funds physics. It's not the Department. of Energy. It's the Department of. Nuclear Weapons. It's the Department of Physics. So, they. let the physics people work out all. these problems, and then they take.

whatever their findings are and apply. them to weapons. Boom, vroom, and zoom. All right. And. that changed the economy, it changes the. ability to. compute. This is what This is who I really am. This is what I really do. And I will not. mouth this narrative that all of my. colleagues will mouth. Physics is interesting. Yeah, but a lot. of the time it's dull. You know, physics is international. Oh, really?

Why do you think the American taxpayers. funding this international effort? Just. to educate Chinese? For all I know, we're trying to. sterilize the Chinese and the Indians. with string theory. So, because nobody's talked to me about. this, I can speak freely. But if you ask me, you know, the Indians. are some of the most aggressive string. theorists on Earth. And my question is, did do we import them in such large. numbers so that they'll go home and be. ineffectual?

That's crazy. So, that's a real. possibility. Yeah. >> That string theory exists as a. distraction. Joe, what do you think the odds are that. a scientist can say, "My failed theory. is the only game in town and not get. laughed out of town?". Not so good. Yeah. I would imagine in a. free-thinking world, not so good. >> world, I would say, "Ed Witten, you're. full of shit.". Who talks like that? You're not you. You're the smartest person I've ever met.

and you have not earned the right to say. that your failed theory, your disaster. of a catastrophe. of a theory is the most failed theory in. history in physics. And you're saying. it's the only game in town? Who died and. left you king, sir? I want to bring you. to one of the weirdest theories that you. have. >> All right. Which is you talked about. this. very overly supported. physics department in this upstate. university upstate New York university.

that's attached to a hedge fund. Stony. Brook's mathematics department and. physics department. Yeah. Yeah. This is. a weird one. All right. Cuz it's. attached to a hedge fund that does. Bernie Madoff type numbers. Bernie Madoff is a loser [ __ ]. Joe. Bernie Madoff was regular and that's why. they called him the Jewish T-Bill. T-Bill? What's a T-Bill? A treasury. security that allowed you to just.

earn some very boring, very high rate of. return where you were supposedly having. your money at risk, but you essentially. never lost there were like almost no. down months. Mhm. Renaissance Technologies. is like, "No, no, no. Hold my beer. We're just going to make numbers like. nobody's ever made in human history. There's nobody in second or third place. relative to Renaissance Technologies. Medallion Fund.". And how is it connected to this. university and what do you think is. going on up there?

One, I don't know. But something weird. It's weird as hell. I I know. I knew Jim Simons personally. Jim Simons. is a genius. But a lot of other people are geniuses. I hate to say it, but you can't swing a. cat in my world without hitting a. genius. So he was he was great.

But he wasn't that much smarter. than every other genius at that level. So I would say, you know, top 100 minds in mathematics and physics. clearly better than that. Jim started off working for the DIA, the. Defense Intelligence Unit. Um. supposedly quit out of outrage over. Vietnam, becomes the super young chairman of the.

SUNY Stony Brook Mathematics Department, holds a lunch center seminar. with. a guy who will become the world's. smartest living physicist, a guy named. C.N. Yang. And they discover over lunch a. connection between differential. geometry, Jim's. uh specialty, and C.N. Yang's. uh specialty, which is the standard. model.

Jim then quits, forms. a hedge fund. long before it's cool. with the father of another guest of. yours on this program, Brian Keating. And the two of them both have medals, so. they call it Medallion because they've. won prizes. So, what was his name? James Ax, not. Keating. Uh. and the two of them start this thing, and it takes off at some level that.

nobody's ever seen numbers before. And then they institute this policy, which is we're not going to hire. financial experts. We're only going to hire math. physics people. So, we're going to hire geometers, we're. going to hire particle theorists, general relativists, and machine. learning people. It's like. who who came up with this story? Do you Do you buy this story? This is so strange because it it sort of. also mirrors a second story.

that was not associated with Brookhaven, which is the national lab near SUNY. Stony Brook, but associated with Los Alamos, which is. a story called the Prediction Company. Except in that case, the name of the. person isn't Jim Simons, it's Doyne. Farmer. And the prediction company is the analog. of Renaissance. So, what you see is that. once people have a pattern, it seems. like these patterns repeat. So, my point is if you ask the question, do we have a Manhattan Project in the.

current era? We don't know. You don't know, I don't. know. But, if we're allowed to speculate, question would be where would it be. located? So, how would you find, for example, the existence of a boy's school in rural. New Mexico where all of these super. smart people are holed up? That's a real puzzle. How would you. figure out that Los Alamos was happening. if that was your goal? Um.

you'd look for indirect evidence. Can. you Jamie, can you call up an article. called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy. named, unfortunately, Jack Raper, r a p. e r? Change your name, bro. >> right? Just call yourself Rapper. Add a P or. something. So, or a G in 1944, the craziest thing in. the What? Graper? >> Graper, right, exactly. Um.

There it is. Okay. So, this article. appeared Monday, March 13th, 1944. Santa Fe, New Mexico. The story of a secret city. with a mayor. who is the second Einstein working on a. doomsday weapon. where nothing leaks. And this is from what year? 1944. Okay. So, the entire. Manhattan Project leaked.

because a Cleveland journalist named. Jack Raper happened to vacation in New. Mexico. and stumbled. on the greatest secret ever kept. Really? How can we not know this, Joe? Wow. And it's all about Oppenheimer. Residents must stay. Dr. Oppenheimer is. a Harvard graduate, attended Cambridge, received a PhD from Gottingham. University in Germany, Germany.

Professor of Physics, University of. California, California Institute of. Technology, and is a fellow of too many. organizations to enumerate. And so, they. were. recognizing that Oppenheimer was doing. something. They knew that he was working. on a doomsday device. Uncle Sam has. placed the city in charge of two men. The men who command the soldiers. I can't read it. To see that the garbage. and rubbish are collected, the streets. kept up, the electric light and plant. and the water works functioning, and all. other metropolitan work operating smooth.

is Colonel somebody. I don't know his name, but it isn't so. important because the mister bigger the. city is called Professor Dr. J. Robert. Oppenheimer. Called the second Einstein by the. newspapers of the West Coast. So, what. I'm trying to say is. Jack Rapier never got a Pulitzer Prize. Died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who. was the other guy who running was. running the town, decided to send him to. the Pacific to punish him for being the.

best journalist in America. And when he found out he was 60 years. old, they decided, "Okay, we're we're. just going to ignore this story and hope. everyone else does because it's too. crazy to be real.". Now, what I'm telling you right now is. Rapier never figured out what Los Alamos. was, but he knows that it doesn't make. sense. And I'm telling you Renaissance. Technologies doesn't make sense. So, these different what? Another. widespread belief is that he's. developing ordinance and explosives.

Supporters of this guess argue that it. accounts for the number of mechanics. working on the production of a single. device. And there are others who would tell you. tremendous explosions have been heard. Oh, that Jack Raper with his overactive. imagination. Haha. The problem with. conspiracy theorists is that they say. the darndest things, Joe. Okay. So, what do you think they're working on? These people at. this upstate New York University. Well, what are we not working on? In other. words, how do you discover what we're.

actually up to is in part you listen for. the holes. What do I work on? I work on the ability to get out of the. solar system. That is my life's mission. I think Elon is a bit of a [ __ ]. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. How so? I don't know. He won't meet with. me. Well, it's okay. >> Maybe because you called him a [ __ ]. Yeah.

No, but. >> Maybe he's busy. Maybe he's trying to. make chicks pregnant. No. >> [laughter]. >> He meets with me. >> does to with recreation. Elon's a genius and Elon is trying. to replace scientists with Grok. And one of the things I I was on an. Indian podcast uh called the guy's name. is BeerBiceps Guy, Ranveer. He's the Joe. Rogan of India. And. >> What's his name? Uh Ranveer Allahbadia. Can you find him? Shout out to Ranveer.

Yeah. So, Ranveer is a friend of mine in. Versova and. I went on his podcast and I before. SpaceX and X and XAI merged, I said. um. I said, "Look, I don't think SpaceX is. Elon's space program. His space program is Grok. Elon doesn't trust scientists for good. reason cuz they're weak. So, he's building his own scientist from.

when when we were strong. He's going to have it read the corpus of. physics done by competent physicists who. actually care about the physical world. so he doesn't have to deal with any of. us. That's why he won't meet. It's not. because he's not interested, not because. he doesn't know. Um, I invited him to the talk as I did. you yesterday. The goal is to get out of the solar. system and we're so far away from. everything good that there's no way of. doing it under relativity.

So, why are we not researching the only. thing. that can save us, which is. diversification? We need to spread out. to the largest number of habitable. worlds possible. So, this implies some sort of a new. propulsion system. >> This implies new science. Stop thinking. technology. There's no way that you. can't engineer your way out of a science. problem. You have to science your way. out. >> And what would be that science? Post-Einstein, post-relativity. That's. what I do. And how would that apply to us leaving.

the solar system? We don't live in. space-time. Space-time has a speed. limit. Explain that. If you can only go the. speed of light at your best and you. can't even get anywhere close to that. How are you going to get to something. four years light years away? >> Okay. Um, in a fantasy world. By the time you go. and come back even assuming all No, no, no. >> Assume you can go at under the speed of. light, just under. You can use time dilation. and relativistic.

>> effects to your benefit. But it's going to cost you eight years. to go and come back. Right. Okay, I don't want to do that. If I'm. going to explore the cosmos, I don't. want to use I don't want to live in. space-time. >> are the alternatives? The observers. The successor to space-time, I'm happy. to predict this on your show, will be. named the observers, which is a. combination of not just using a. four-dimensional space-time manifold, but a 14- and a four-dimensional space. simultaneously. This was what I was. talking about at the university.

yesterday. And how would that like when you say the. difference between science and. technology? So. >> How would that science be applied? If we. look at the surface of this table, I. can't do this to it. Can't spread it. apart, move it, right? >> to zoom. Right. >> It's a multi-touch gesture invented. around 2003 or something, debuted at. TED. But if I come to this device, I can do. that. Your phone. Right. So imagine that. this is space-time. Okay. And this is the observers.

So if I want to go to a distant. star, there's no way I'm going to just go. really fast. Right. >> That's dumb. Um and I need an energy source and I. need to do things that we can't normally. do. You have to jailbreak space-time. If Einstein is in force, we all die. If. we go beyond Einstein, some of us will. live and some of us will die. And what would be the energy that you. would need in order to do this? So that.

how do you unlock this? One is maybe it's not that energetic to. to do these things. Energy is is um. technically. time momentum. You can talk about momentum in the X. direction, momentum in the Y, momentum. in the Z. Fine. What's momentum in the. time direction? It has a different name. We don't call. energy time momentum, but that's what it. is. So first of all, I don't believe that. there's one direction of time. There's.

no arrow of time. That's not true. I believe that time is. multi-dimensional. The only dimension. that has an ordering. is one dimension. So in other words, if I say to you. um. Joe has two cigars, Eric has none. Who has more cigars? Joe. Okay. Joe has two cigars, but Eric has three. glasses. and no cigars. Joe has one glass and two cigars. Who.

has more stuff? Well, now it's not clear. because Eric has more glasses than Joe. But Joe has more cigars. So, in two. dimensions, we no longer can say. this is better than that. for things where you have more of one. and less of another. Okay. Time is like that. In one dimension, there's an arrow. There's an ordering. We call it It's. It's It's you know, like a well-ordered. set or something. In two dimensions, all. bets are off and and two and higher.

The number of dimensions in total is. going to be either five or seven. And. each of those dimensions has a different. kind of energy. So, in other words, energy is unique. because there's only one time dimension. But as soon as. ener- time has multiple dimensions, you. can talk about multiple forms of energy. Just the way you can talk about momentum. in the X direction, momentum in the Y. direction, or momentum in the Z. direction.

So, in part, what I'm trying to do is to. jailbreak spacetime. That's what I'm. actually doing. And I'm doing it with zero support, with. no confirmation that this is real. because something is controlling my. entire community. to make this funny haha just like. Forbidden City. Was Jack Kraper Jack Raper has gone mad. He thinks that there's a city in New. Mexico where there's a mayor who's a. second Einstein developing a doomsday.

weapon. Is that funny? What a loon that guy. What an idiot. Haha. That's what's going on, Joe. So, how do you think that. technology could be applied to these. ideas in order to create some mode of. travel. Pinch to zoom, Joe. Right, but how? How. would that be done? So, right now we're. in a four-dimensional world. Call that. flatland. Okay. Imagine that there are. 10 perpendicular dimensions called.

symmetric two tensors. Four of those. are spatial. directions. and six of them temporal. or. four of them are. uh temporal and six of them spatial. I. can't tell you one of those two. Okay. But they're additionally either four or. six extra time dimensions. or six or four space dimensions. We have to gain access to break out of.

flatland. We live in flatland. We don't. know we live in flatland. And I know. what that. Technically, the name is fiber. dimension. What it is, we have to gain access to. it, which is discovering that somebody. gives you a an obsidian rock. that has a property that you've never. seen before called pinch to zoom. So, I need to make the distance to the. nearest star small. so I can go with reasonable speed.

Or instantaneously. Mhm, I don't need instantaneously. I I I if I have something four. light-years away and I can make it 100. ft away, I can walk 100 ft. easily enough. You know, I can I can I can I can I can. I can I can I can push something. Right. Okay. >> So, the idea is if I can gain access to. the fiber. the distance becomes relatively. immaterial. So, if you think that these physicists. are working on this and all all these. >> No, I didn't say that I think. >> Okay. I'm saying if anybody is working.

on that. >> Either two One of two things is. happening. Either we have become the. stupidest nation on Earth destroying our. own ability to do physics. We gave away the store. We're morons. That's possible. Or. we're doing it in private. And you feel like it's possible to hide. all this from the general public? >> point is you're not going to hide it. They No, no, no. The same way they did. it before would be spoiled by. satellites. Right now, if you tried to do Los.

Alamos, you couldn't do it because of. the satellites. >> Right. So, it has to be hidden in. plain sight. It has to look like something that. isn't. So, if you asked me. Let's imagine you asked me a different. question. Let's imagine you asked me, "Eric, nobody's willing to give you money. Nobody's willing to employ you. Nobody's. willing to have you speak at their. seminar. You despite the fact you have. complete blue chip credibility. How would you. how would you organize a secret team.

to get control of our adversaries, the. world, and the. ability to traverse the cosmos? I sure sure as [ __ ] wouldn't build a. chemical rocket company. That's dumb. But, I do it as cover. And I sure as [ __ ] wouldn't do things in. an open university department. Here's what I'd do. I'd build an organization. that could rationalize billions passing. through it with almost no footprint.

Because what I really need is. whiteboards and coffee and smart people. and a secure campus and a story. That's all I need. God, wouldn't you love to have access to. what they're doing? No, cuz I'm going to. do it myself. How you going to do that? Cuz I know I know really smart people, Joe. Don't you need like insane amounts of. money and a laboratory somewhere? >> You know, it's funny. Like Sam Altman is racing, Dario Amodei is racing, uh Elon Musk for.

superintelligence. So. I ask myself, if you could have premium. subscriptions to Grok, Gemini, xAI, um. Sorry. Uh Grok, Gemini, Claude, all of them. Mhm. Or you could have. Edward Frenkel's home phone number, which would you choose? I'd choose Ed. Frenkel's home phone number. So, I get to call Ed Frenkel whenever I. want to.

That's smart. Look, there there are people that you. don't even know about. who are just terrifyingly smart, who. Allow me to assemble that team. That's what, you know, I Is that. literally what you're trying to do? Oh, yeah. And how are you doing it? I don't know. I stayed with Ed for 5. days in Berkeley. I got him and. another colleague.

who's also terrifying. I'm using. Soviets, Joe. Ex-Soviets. Okay. >> guys haven't haven't lost the magic. And uh. you know, I had Frenkel and a guy named. Misha Kapranov come down. for 5 days to kick the [ __ ] out of my. theory. It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. We're. drinking vodka at like 10:00 a.m. having insane meals, and just working our asses off the way.

we're supposed to. How did it go? Amazing. What did they think about your theory? So. far, Okay. So, in other words, the story. Can we just pull up. I just want to do this for my own. reasons. Can we pull up the lead the. pinned tweet on my Twitter profile, which by the way, thank you for. retweeting? No problem. Yeah. Love you. Love you, too. What is it?

Let's go to it real quick. >> [snorts]. >> So, first of all, I want to show off the. header. Can we go up to the top of the header. before we do that? Those. two. formulas, the bottom one says CFJ. C is Sean Carroll. The middle F is uh Fields, and J is.

Roman Jackiw, a professor at MIT. Sean Carroll's second most um cited. paper is has this as its action or. Lagrangian. Right above that is my action or. Lagrangian. And what you see all those zeros are. things that Sean Carroll doesn't know. how to handle. And that thing where you see a P, you. see star parentheses P on the bottom. line, not the bottom second from the.

bottom, is Sean's relativity-violating. uh hack. Sean Carroll did not disclose. that geometric unity. is a direct competitor to his most cited. work. So, now if we can roll the clip, it'll make more sense as to what's going. on. And let's blow that thing up to full. screen. >> of the situation. uh is nearly constant for reasons that.

completely elude me. Sean? The good news is I have read Eric's. paper. Here it is. I actually have it. here, right here. First thing you got to. do is make sure that your theory makes. contact with modern physics as it is. understood. If you have a new paper out, physicists are going to look at it. They're going to look for, you know, where's the Lagrangian? >> [music]. >> So, this is for people that are just. listening, this is showing that you have.

Lagrangians in your. these equations. >> Carroll lying. Right. Did you. Did you their interactions are in there. as well, but you call did you call him. out on this on the show? I couldn't. believe that he'd do this. So, you. didn't say anything? >> Proton stability that's in there as. well. So, essentially he's lying to make. it seem like your theory doesn't work. when you have all the things that you're. saying your theory doesn't have. >> of two lies. We don't know which lie.

Okay. There's a lie that says. uh I read your paper. So, he didn't. >> I'm willing to. entertain the fact that he's lying that. he read my paper. Okay. And I'm willing. to. entertain the fact that he's lying. that. he read my paper and he's going to deny. that these things are in there. But, he's what I don't know which lie he's. telling. Right. One of them's a lie. One. of them's a lie. >> Either he lied saying he read your paper. or he lied saying he definitely lied. saying those things aren't in there cuz. he did say those things aren't in there. That's a lie. Right. He just says. there's none of that. None of that. None.

of that. Okay. So, my claim is. >> respond like right there? Joe, what am I. just Let's just for one more second. I'm in a world that makes absolutely no. sense and I don't want to disappear. I'm not suicidal. I have been the major competitor of. string theory for 42 years. I'm not a. podcaster. I'm not a guest. I'm not an. entertainer. What I really do for a living.

I'm not paid to do. Okay, I understand that. When he's. saying. >> know what to do. You just didn't know. what to do in the moment. >> I mean, what do I want? Do I want a. legal battle? Right. I've got a defense. contractor. I'm one of the world's. largest companies is a defense. contractor which is has a campaign. against me for reasons I don't. understand. Just have have no clue. why anyone would say you don't have a. Lagrangian. And so he's. attached to a defense contractor?

>> No, no, no, but there's a there's a. By virtue of the fact that the. conspiracy against me, and I I literally. mean technically a conspiracy, is. organized through these Discord servers. And. there's an engineer. at Google who for example can't a paper. against me that lies about what it is. that I'm up to. Um published on the archive, which is. where physicists share their stuff. So the the engineer will say, "How how.

about you do a talk at Google, Sabine. Hossenfelder?" And Sabine Hossenfelder. will come to Google. and she'll be given her thing if if he. will be allowed to post an anti-Eric. screed or paper or whatever you want to. call it against me. So what I'm trying to say is I'm acting. as Jack Raper in some way. Okay. I'm. doing stuff and saying stuff like. Epstein is an is a construct. Mhm. Well, okay, now you can say that, but you.

couldn't say that when I started saying. it. You can't say Ed Witten is driving. theoretical physics off of a cliff. You. can't say. you know, the reason that uh. we have the particles that we do has it. that there's a 10-dimensional fiber in a. fiber bundle above space-time that isn't. acknowledged. For some reason the things. that we're talking about on this show. are dangerous. We're having dangerous conversations, Joe. That's what JRE does.

And sometimes you you go all the way and. sometimes you puss out. But like this is. a dangerous place because they can't. tell you what to do. And that's why they. put you in like a different color on the. screen during COVID. cuz you went against the narrative. The narrative was go get vaccinated. The narrative was if you think that. COVID came from anything. other than a wet market, you're a. racist. Every time you've gone up against the. narrative, they try to destroy you. You're still here? But you've been badly badly bruised at.

various times. You are a danger to the narrative as I. am a danger to the narrative. That's one. of the reasons why this is like I don't. know what is this? My eighth, sixth, some large number of appearances. We are. scary to the narrative and the narrative. can no longer be held together. I want to bring you back to the. technology that's involved. So, when we're talking about. this. program that may or may not exist.

>> Right. And when we're talking about. UAPs. >> Yeah. for lack of a better term. Do you. think that these are connected? And do. you think that Yes. So, one one of the. things that I've suspected and many I'm. not the only one, many people suspected. this. It's very odd that a lot of these. sightings that these. Air Force pilots and Navy pilots that. they find they're over and near military. bases. That's right. Which is where you. would practice. Or restricted airspace, which is where.

you'd use your stuff. And when they see these things. and they have these experiences with. these things. the people that they report them to. don't seem shocked. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is um with. Ryan Graves' experience. This is what. Commander David Fravor experienced that. they tell these people about these. things and no one is like, "What the. [ __ ] are you talking about?". Right, because they know. Because this. might be ours. So, some of this is ours. Okay. Some of.

this is foreign nations and some of this. is. is not understood. That's what I. believe. Okay. So, some of these things they're think. they're seeing is a part of some. undisclosed program. I believe that for. example some of this is not craft. but the ability to create the illusion. of craft. Okay. Some of this I believe is craft. So the ability to create like a. hologram?

I don't know. Like a hall. like yeah. >> projected plasma. >> That's right. Okay. Some Which we know. they can do. Which we've seen them we we. showed the videos. >> we've seen limited versions of this. Imagine that those things scale up. Okay. Okay. If there were no aliens or craft. I would want to create a program. if I was in the it disinformation. business. I would want to create one of.

these things. Right? Because there's a god-shaped hole. in all of our souls and minds. And so aliens and spacecraft fill that. hole. Right. So there's like a god for. atheists. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's god for atheists. So first of all. I would think that we were incompetent. if we didn't have something that created. a UFO ghost stories. Why wouldn't you use that? I also believe that there are foreign. nations that may have leapfrogged us.

You know clearly we saw that where we. invested in aircraft carriers and other. people invested in drones and they. realized that this was about economic. warfare. Cost too much to shoot down. cheap stuff to make. So we're in the process of having our. Suez moment if you will. in Iran if we're not careful. Where it is revealed that our. lead in aircraft carrier groups is not. what we thought it was. Mhm.

So we can get to Iran in a second if you. like but what I believe is that. um we've been dumb. We've been extremely stupid since the. end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and. Dick Morris ushered in an era of. stupidity that I cannot even believe is. so antithetical to my notion of my. belonging to the smartest nation on. Earth. Um, that we've just basically gutted our. smart people. The smart people don't. even know each other. Now, what is going. on with the technology and what we're.

seeing, we've lost control of some airspace. That's what I believe is I don't know. that to be true, but I believe in with. very high probability. >> think that's what San Antonio is about? San Antonio? No, I'm sorry. El Paso. >> Yeah, I I I believe that El Paso is not. about cartel drones. That's true. Okay. >> that's not to say that there isn't a. cartel drone here or there, but I don't think we shut down airspace. in El Paso to deal with cartel drones. Right. So,

what were the experiences that people. were were reporting and like like what. like what do you know about what. happened in El Paso? >> Well, there's what I know, which is all second hand. So, what I know what I can say I know. first hand is the reporting of various. things by various people, but I probably. had five plus conversations about White. Sands. People who don't know each other not. connected. So, whoever is supposed to be. keeping White Sands a secret failed.

Okay, so. I believe that White Sands. has an infestation problem with stuff. that is. either not ours. or is being blue team red teamed. ours and not told to our people. How would you deal with the following. puzzle? So, maybe we're putting our own. our own one group is putting our drones. or something in the air. >> Right. And another group is being told, how would you deal with this problem? We.

we we we've lost control of our. airspace, but something is going on in. New Mexico. What was the descriptions. of these drones? What does it say here? Airspace at the center of the brief, but. highly publicized incident. February 11, 2026, FAA abruptly announced 10-day. shutdown of the airspace over El Paso. International Airport. The restriction. was lifted after just a few hours. Pentagon anti-drone testing. The. Pentagon was testing high-energy laser. counter-drone technology out of the.

nearby Fort Bliss military base. The FAA. grounded commercial flights out of an. abundance of caution because the. unannounced testing. Cartel drone. activity. Officials from the Trump. administration cited incursions from. Mexican drug cartel drones breaching US. airspace as the primary reason for the. defense systems that the defense the. defense systems were deployed in the. first place. Lack of communication. White House officials later noted that. the FAA administrator implemented the. surprise flight ban without notifying. the Pentagon, Department of Homeland.

Security, or officials. That seems crazy. It's This story. doesn't hang together. >> That part doesn't hang together at all. >> Well, that's the thing. >> [clears throat]. >> administrator implemented a flight ban. without notifying the Pentagon, the. Department of Homeland Security, or the. White House officials? That doesn't even. seem legal. Joe, but I don't know. You and I both have at least 105 IQs. These are like 65 IQ stories.

Yeah. They Well, the Mexican drone cartel one seems like. a dopey narrative. But maybe there are. actually Mexican drone car drones. I'm. sure the cartels have drones. >> cartels have drones, and we're going to. use the fact that New that El Paso is. close to White Sands. >> Right. But what did What was the. reported drone activity? Do you know. anything about it? Like what what. supposedly Yeah. Not going to say. Ooh. No. >> Mysterious. Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as. much as I can. I understand. >> the thing. >> around. Okay.

But I mean I'd like to know like what. Right, but I'm. >> Tell me later. No. [ __ ] No, it's not like that. Look. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, [ __ ] you both. Let's play that awesome music again. There's a video from the AP put out just. 4 days ago that says there is a cartel. attacking lots of people. Well, I'm sure. there's cartel What I'm trying to say is. No, no, I know, I know, I know. Every. single person who knows how to keep a.

secret knows how to use the truth to. hide a lie. Right, of course. So what. And [clears throat] and that's always. been done. >> So the the thing that I'm doing is I am. I am an Amer- I am. I am so grateful to this country. I love. my country. I am going to maintain the ability. till my dying day to help my country and. advise my country. My country is a [ __ ]. I don't know why she's acting this way. I don't know why she's been stupid since. 1992.

Right? But she's been acting like a [ __ ] since. the Clinton administration. We're bad at being America and I I can't. stand it. So I'm going to with I would. love to tell you everything I know. I. would love to penalize people for being. bad at their jobs. But I'm going to retain the ability to. advise my government till my dying day. And so I'm not going to say what I know. Okay. It says this is from New York. Times inside the debacle that led to the.

closure of El Paso's airspace FAA citing. grave risk of fatalities from a new. technology being used on the Mexican. border got caught in a stalemate with. the Pentagon which deemed the weapon. necessary. Whatever. Okay, who knows? >> [ __ ]. >> stories as you can spin, right? Throw. them all out there, right? Throw a bunch. of them. >> Look, our press was a largely set up in. World War II to go to war. And it's been that way ever since.

And during the Walter Cronkite era and. the Eric Sevareids and all that kind of. stuff that nobody really remembers, we had a measure of freedom to talk. about things. And it got too much, and. in the middle of the 1970s, we had the. Church and and Pike Committee hearings, and we freaked out. We found out who we really were. We are both the super naive squeaky. clean state. and the baddest of the bad MFs. We're both things. We're a hybrid.

We're extremely Machiavellian. We're. extremely naive. There's no way of. stopping that being what we are. So, you think that it's very possible. that there's a foreign nation that has. some sort of technology that can invade. our airspace at will. And that's what. the shutdown was. I believe that. somebody may have leapfrogged us as they. have leapfrogged us in drone technology. So, then they have leapfrogged us in.

some. propulsion technology. >> that there's a nation. in Asia, Mhm. China, which. puts on amazing drone shows and buys up. our academics who aren't being paid. cuz we're sitting around bitching, "What. have you What have you technical people. done for us? Why do you deserve to be paid from. taxpayer dollars?" And the answer is, "Oh, shut the [ __ ] up.". We created your economy, you stupid.

[ __ ]. We're the baddest of the bad. We are the. source of your wealth and your strength, and you come to us bitching about your. taxpayer dollars? You deserve to lose to China, you little. Mhm. I I have no words for the also the new. crop of tech billionaires who are bitten. by COVID. What do you mean. Well, they think that Anthony Fauci was. a scientist and so they they believed in. science before Fauci and now they don't. believe in science.

>> [sighs and gasps]. >> I don't understand what you're saying. >> my god. I don't I literally don't. understand what you're saying. >> All right. Silicon Valley had a huge. about-face. when they figured out that Fauci was. full of [ __ ]. A lot of them bankrolled our. universities. They supported science. They were. Democrats. And then somehow COVID happened. And because they had this childlike. belief in universities, science, and the. Democratic Party, they ran to the.

Republican Party. like children. Not understanding. that. Anthony Fauci was not a scientist. COVID. is a giant lie. Collins and Fauci and Ralph Baric and. Peter Daszak are menaces. to the credit of science of science. The credit rating of science went into. the toilet with Silicon Valley. And a. new a new idea was born,

which is that the engineer is. everything. The scientist is nothing. Everything should be a a for-profit, not. a nonprofit. If artificial intelligence should. replace our best people. I mean. the. This is the spell that. many of our. Like I I would like to think that I. count Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel as. friends. Sam Altman is a friend.

I don't know what happened to all of. these people. They're just wrong. And they're rich. And somehow we like. our public intellectuals became our. billionaires. What does Naval say? What does Mark say? What does Elon say? Everybody who's talking their book is. now our our public intellectuals. And quite honestly, they're all. brilliant. But they're all highly motivated. Mhm.

That's fact. Yeah. But. where are our scientists? Where are our. intellectuals? Where are our people who. care more about. How do I say this? Glory. and immortality rather than private jet. travel. You could not give get me. to give up my claim on immortality for. private jet travel.

I don't understand the fascination with. private jets. They're cool. Mildly. Well, it's not just private jets. Well, what is it? I think they attach. monetary gain. to. uh. success. And above and beyond needs. So, it. becomes a a way of measuring success. They look at numbers above and beyond.

everything else. My craziest brilliant. friend who's completely insane is a guy. named Michael Vassar. Michael Vassar had a made a point to me. as he often does, which is really. dangerous. And he said, "When did the. world's smartest people. stop caring about their own game and. their own prizes and start focusing on. the prizes of the people pursuing wealth. and status?".

And he said, "Somehow when scientists. care about McLarens and Lamborghinis, something terrible has happened. And. Boy, has that. like a splinter in my mind turning over. I can't get rid of it. He's right. He's just right. By the way, this is a guy who. also told me that Dario Amadei was like. a really important person I needed to. pay attention to him when I He was just. some guy that I knew. Um.

Vassar's point is. the scientists stop having their own. game with their own prizes and so. they've started caring about things that. they should be completely ignoring. I don't have a McLaren and I couldn't. care less. I do care about immortality. I do care. about recognition. I do care about my. name being removed from things that I've. done. And other people's, you know, cherry-topping going on top of it. Quite honestly, we're a different game. We're a different species.

There's a You know that that song uh One. Night in Bangkok? >> Mhm. It came from a musical about chess. And he says in the lyrics to that song, which we don't remember, he says uh. I'd have, you know, something like I'd. have you over, I would invite you, but. the queens we use would not excite you. So, you can go back to your massage. parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is. that the chess world. doesn't care. about who got laid.

Chess world cares about the evergreen. game, the immortal game. What did. Fischer do to Spassky? What. What's going on with Magnus Carlsen? Somehow the science world stopped caring. about our own stuff. And. we've got to make sure that the public. intellectuals are not dominated by. billionaires. As much as I love these. guys, they're my friends. >> you're right. Yeah, they're smart as. hell. They wouldn't have gotten to be. billionaires otherwise, but they're. always talking their book.

Always. Look at, you know, people are like. famous libertarians and they become. surveillance people. You know, they they. they. Bill Gates, you know, what is he just. buying farmland for? Right. To be He wants to make sure that. we have a steady supply of of food of. something. Um we've got to stop the addiction to. billionaires as the only people we trust. because at least they're rich. Let's end it there.

Good. I got to wrap this up, but I. appreciate you very much. This is very. good. Yeah? Yeah, it was a good one. >> Great seeing you, Joe. Great seeing you, too. And I think your the last point is. that should resonate with a lot of. people. It's dead right. Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe. Well, maybe we'll go to another planet. together. Love it. >> [music]. >> Bye, everybody. >> [music].