Joe Rogan Experience #2497 - Gad Saad

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE. ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. Good to see you, sir. Oh, so good to see. you. >> What's happening? How you been? Doing great. Got big news. I'll talk. big, very big. Before I start with that. Okay. drops. the book. Suicidal Empathy. A quote that we use. all the time. That's right. Yeah, it is.

it is a good quote and it is a very. accurate quote for the times. I like. this where they're carrying a sign, free. the wolves. The lamb is carrying [snorts] Well, I. wanted the the cover to be as evocative. as the the concept, right? Dying to be. kind. >> There you go. And they are just in the last two days. there have been so many new cases of. suicidal empathy that I regret that I. couldn't include them in the book. Like which ones? So, did you hear about. the one where the the guy who tried to.

assassinate President Trump? >> Oh, yeah. >> The judge then went and said, I am so. sorry that you know, you're not being. treated nicely. You have a. a room without a window. This is just. it's mean. Oh, see I don't think that. that's suicidal empathy at all. I think. that's signaling. I think that's signaling that he wishes. that that man was successful and that he. supports his endeavor. Fair enough. The second example actually. today Dave Rubin shared it with me. It.

was the one where a felon of color who. had just been released ended up pushing. right? And and the the previous person. that he had been entangled with didn't. want to whatever press charges because. she didn't want another black man to be. in prison. >> Oh, boy. So, uh Boy, boy, boy, boy. So, we can So, I hope we to get into the. book in a second, but the other big news. is that this past year I've been a. visiting scholar at Old Miss,

uh. University of Mississippi. I had taken a. two-year leave from my school at in. Montreal. Starting this. uh summer, we are moving permanently to. Oxford. So, the Lebanese Jews Canadians. are going down to Oxford, Mississippi, and we're very excited. >> Wow. >> Yeah, yeah. Um so, you're going to be. there for 2 years? So, how does that. work? Do you get a green. >> years. green card or a visa? >> the the previous 2 years that I did, it. was a leave of absence. So, I didn't I I.

only had to get a TN visa. But now that. we're moving, uh we're I applied for an EB-1A visa, which gets you a green card. It's one of. They're called extraordinary visas. Mhm. >> You have to pass certain criteria to. them. >> extraordinary, aren't you? And rather. easy on the eyes. >> [laughter]. >> And so, uh and so, that went through, thank God. And so, yeah. So, we're very. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, yeah. So, and hopefully this will. be a fast track to.

My inner spirit is American, but maybe. we can legalize it and turn turn the. Saads into Americans. Wow. You're going. to join You're going to join the team. All right. If If you'll have me. >> Ah, we'll have you. Come on. Welcome. aboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> more people that are thinking straight. >> So, that's the big news. But. >> That's awesome, man. Congratulations. That's a fantastic thing. That's. beautiful. Do you want to get into the. book and then we talk about other stuff? >> Sure. Whatever. >> So, I I thought maybe I'd give you. because I I know that you know The. Parasitic Mind really well. And so, I. wanted to kind of contextualize this.

book in relation to that book. >> Mhm. So, we are a thinking and a feeling. animal, right? Both our cognitive system is. important and our affective system is. important. For example, uh advertisers recognize that. If I'm. trying to sell you a mutual fund, I need. to engage your cognitive system. Here. are the seven reasons why you should buy. my mutual fund. If I'm trying to sell. you perfume, I don't tell you this is. what Harvard physiologists think about.

the science of olfaction, right? I need. to engage your affective system. So, in. that case, I will show you a pretty girl on a horse. with beautiful hair, and the the brand. name will be Mystere, right? I'm just. engaging your emotional system. Well, The Parasitic Mind was the story. of what I need to do to hijack your. cognitive system, your your your ability. to think rationally. And hence, there. were all these parasitic ideas that. destroyed your capacity to think. But,

for me to completely zombify you and. hijack you, I also need to zombify your. affective system. That's where social. empathy comes in. So, if I can hijack. both your cognitive and emotional. systems, you become a wood cricket, which we. could talk about what that reference is, if you want. >> What's a wood cricket? So, the wood. cricket is a an an insect that abhors. water. It wants nothing to do with. water. But, when it is parasitized by a. neuro parasite called the brain hair. worm, >> Oh, I've seen this.

>> Right? The hair worm needs the wood. cricket to happily and merrily commit. suicide by jumping into the water, because that's the only way that the. hair worm. can complete its reproductive cycle. So, once the hair worm hijacks the the wood. cricket's ability to think and to invoke. its survival instinct, it erases its. survival instinct, then it is owned by. the hair worm. And so, I use that. principle to explain social empathy. Yeah, we've actually shown videos of.

that. It's very strange. The cricket. really commits suicide. It jumps in the. water, drowns, and the worm wiggles out. of its body. Exactly. And that's how. it's born. Exactly. And And So many. There's so many cases of that in nature. Indeed. Yeah. And so, the way that I had. originally had the epiphany to use the. parasitological framework. So parasitology is this is just the. study of host parasite interactions. So. a tapeworm is a parasite but that. parasitizes my intestinal tract. But a.

subfield of parasitology is neural. parasitology. Those are the parasites. that need to go into your brain altering. your circuitry to suit their interest. Including ideas. >> And that's how I came up with the. parasitic ideas of the parasitic mind. But. in order to fully tell the story I then. have to say but but a lot of the the. mechanisms by which people seem to be. completely hijacked in terms of their. ability to think critically is really. coming from an affective place. And so.

how can I explain that? And so what I. argue in the book and then we we can. drill down to endless examples if you. want. I'm not saying. that empathy is a bad thing cuz even. though the book is just dropping there's. already been maybe 10 articles that have. been hit pieces against the book which. of course people that means people. haven't read it yet where they say you. know here comes the the dark Jew who is. trying to promulgate the idea that. empathy is a bad thing. He's a neocon. right-wing guy an Elon guy a Donald.

Trump Trump Donald Trump guy. I'm I'm. not saying that empathy is bad. Empathy. is actually a very important virtue to. have in order for you and I to have a. meaningful conversation I need to put. myself in your mind and vice versa. That's called cognitive empathy. Right? Theory of mind is something that. typically autistic children fail on very. early in life. That's how you diagnose. them as being autistic. So there's. nothing wrong with well-modulated. empathy. The problem with empathy like.

most things in life is if there's too. little or too much of it. Aristotle explained this to us. thousands of years ago via his golden. mean. If if a soldier is not courageous. enough, if he's cowardly, it's not good. If he's too courageous, he becomes a. reckless martyr, that's not good. There's a sweet pot spot in the middle. I argue empathy follows exactly that. rule. Too little of it, you're a. psychopath. Too much of it, if it's. hyperactive, if it is invoked in the.

wrong situations, toward the wrong. targets, you end up with societal. empathy. Yeah, I don't even necessarily. know if it's empathy at that point. It. It could. completely becomes illogical and. ideological. You just subscribe to whatever the. ideology says, and you ignore the. reality. Like this man that pushed that. guy in front of the train. Right. Like. this is a violent criminal, and he had. been arrested numerous times. I think. more than a dozen. Right. And it was.

very clear there's something very wrong. with this person. He probably shouldn't. be just running free, victimizing. people. There was another one where um. someone pushed this old guy down five. flights of stairs into the subway and. killed him. Yeah. Same situation. Same. kind of person. Person that had been in. and out of jail. You know, every one of these people starts off as. a child. Every one of these people. starts off as a baby. And I can only. imagine what kind of household they. developed in. I can only imagine what. kind of abuse they suffered. I can only.

imagine what happened to them. And. that's horrible. But once they reach. adulthood, and they start victimizing. other people, we've got to do something. as a society. >> Exactly. Now, I don't know what the. tools are to rehabilitate a person like. that, but I know that they're not being. employed. Uh there's not a whole lot of evidence. of there's any successful program where. they're taking a person like that and. doing something with them that. completely changes their personality and. the way they interact with humans and.

releases them out in the world and. become a much better person than they. used to be. So, I call them In the book, I call them. blank slate felons, because if you. remember the term blank slate. it So, in the Parasitic Mind, I talk. about social constructivism. Everything. is a social construction. It's the. tabula rasa premise. We're born with. empty minds with with no individual. differences in our potentiality and it's. only our unique life trajectories. and our unique patterns of social. socialization that end up making us who.

we become. Which in a small sense, that's true. My life experience and. yours is an indelible part of who we are. as individuals. But there are individual. differences. That people are born with. different proclivities eventually of. committing crimes or of being NBA. players or of being the next Einstein. It's a very hopeful message though to. start with the blank slate premise. >> Yeah, it's just not accurate. >> Exactly. Because it if you you and I are. both parents, I would love to subscribe. to the idea that if only I knew the.

exact schedule of reinforcement of my. how to ensure that my child becomes the. next Lionel Messi or the next Albert. Einstein, he too can become that. That's. a lot more hopeful than thinking, you. know what? I don't think my son has the. morphological features that are ever. going to make make him to be the next. NBA star. He's too short. He doesn't. have the right athletic tools. And so. it's it's easy to understand why people. can be parasitized by these ideas. This.

this person of color. was born into a white supremacist. society. So, he's already been. victimized by society. And for you to. now punish him by having him, you know, in the penal system, you're doubly. punishing him. So, shouldn't you give. him a second chance? And by second. chance, we mean 186 chance. That's part. of suicidal empathy. But suicidal. empathy doesn't even apply to only that. The victims of rape are themselves are. suicidally empathetic towards their. rapist. Can I share some of those.

incredible stories? >> Sure. Uh. So, I start off in the book with an. example from a Norwegian man who had. been sodomized by a Somali migrant. Uh because the Norwegians are very kind. and empathetic, they don't believe in. long sentences. He served maybe, I don't. know, 3 years or 4. Like a pretty short. sentence for a rape of another man. When he was being released, he was going. to be deported, the victim of that rape. had this huge existential.

angst and guilt. because now that, you know, Ahmed was. going to be released back to Mogadishu, he wouldn't end up being able to. maximally flourish that like he should. be. Well, our emotional system did not. evolve to be empathetic toward our. rapist. That would be an example of. someone who's being suicidally. empathetic. Another great example, uh What happened in that case? Uh what in in terms of whether he was. deported or not? I think I don't want to. misspeak, but I think he was deported to.

the screams and lamentations of his. victim. of the his victim. Uh there is a. woman who was raped in Germany, and when. the authorities were trying to find out. more about who the perpetrators were, she lied to them and said that they were. uh speaking in German even though they. were speaking in Arabic and Farsi. because if she had truly said what their. language was, then those communities. would have been marginalized.

>> Ugh. So, and you So, you know, there's. just an endless number of like a litany. of these examples. And therefore, suicidal empathy is is. really pervasive once you [snorts] I. could recognize the mechanism. >> But, when you look at the root of that, how do How is it so common? Like, what. what happens? >> So, I think that That's a great. question. I think again it goes back to. the one-two punch of parasitic mind and. suicidal empathy. In order for the fertile grounds to be. available for suicidal empathy to barge. in, I first have to have certain ideas.

that are implanted in your brain. So, let me give That sounds very abstract, so let me give you a concrete example. Cultural relativism. is a parasitic idea that I discuss in. The Parasitic Mind. It basically says, "Who are you to judge the beliefs and. the practices of another culture? Shut. up, racist." Right? So, there are honor. killings, shut up. There are. child brides, shut up. There are female. genital mutilations, shut up. Don't. judge other cultures. Well, if you. internalize that parasitic idea that it.

is not appropriate to ever judge the. cultural practices of another culture, then that renders you impotent. when you're making judgments about who. should be let into your country, about. whether you want an increase of people. who hold those views or not. That Therefore, that leads to the. suicidally empathetic position that all. immigrants are equally likely to. assimilate within the American ethos or. the Western ethos. So, we started off.

with internalizing a parasitic idea. called cultural relativism, and that. lays the foundation for then the. suicidal empathy of open borders. Well, there's no pressure at all to. assimilate. You're more than welcome. What That's one of the weird things. You're more than welcome to establish a. Somali community in Minnesota, where no. one speaks English. Exactly. You know, it's it's very odd. It's very odd that. people want to come here, but when they. come here, they want to essentially turn. it into a smaller version, at least. their neighborhood, of where they came.

from. Right. And a lot I mean, if it. were only that you don't speak English, I mean, to me that's bad enough in that. you're not going to be part of the. fabric of the greater society, but fair. enough, that's not an existential. threat. But if you're then going to be. advocating for many of the. cultural beliefs that are perfectly. antithetical to the whole society, then. we have a problem. Yeah, and a lot of. the cultural beliefs that are illogical, they have to be based on something else, and generally that's religion. Indeed.

Yeah. >> Uh and you and I have talked, you know, very often about, you know, Islam and so. on. Some people I think I mean I wonder what. you think about this. Do you Do you. think more Americans are willing to have. a honest and open conversation about. this issue, or are most still sort of. the proverbial ostrich, and they think it's gauche to talk about. religion? Well, I I think it's really. divided in party lines. You know, people. on the right are more than willing to. talk about it. There's very few people.

on the right who are empathetic about. some of the. differences that these religions have. and hold, and some of the rules that. they would like to apply, like Sharia. law. Whereas there's a lot of people on the. left that are terrified of being called. racist. Terrified of being called Islamophobic, or, you know, fill in whatever phobia, transphobic, whatever it is. They're. just terrified. They're terrified of. being labeled. And it's interesting. because that side of the political.

spectrum, the the people on the left, are the quickest to pull the trigger and. accuse someone of being something, being. racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever it. is. They're They're the quickest and the. most vicious when it comes to attacking. people based on them not. not going along with whatever narrative. has been established, which is. interesting because. they're the ones that also like to call. people fascists. But that is a form of.

fascism. It's not like If you look at. fascism, it's It's essentially most. people think of it as right-wing. authoritarianism. But it is also, if you look at the. definition of it, it's also a complete. adherence to whatever narrative. is being promoted. >> And you don't think about that when it's. left-wing, like left-wing progressive, like left-wing progressive fascism. sounds like an oxymoron. But it's it's a. mindset. And [snorts] it's the the.

problem is you're hiding this mindset in. an ideology that you think is righteous. And this is you could say the same thing. about religion because this is also what. people do with religion because it is. the right thing. It's the right thing to. do. So, throw the gay off the roof. Like. that's like it's it's really kind of. fascinating. Like when you when you see. like queers for Palestine, you're like, "Hold on." Like [laughter]. like it is a wonderful thing to. empathize for the Palestinian people and.

to think that they shouldn't be bombed. into oblivion and I'm with you 100%. But. when you start supporting Hamas and. saying, you know, we're queers for. Hamas, like and I've seen that. I've. seen trans people for Hamas. And it's. like, "Good lord, what are you saying?". >> So, I've got I've got a a whole verbatim. transcript between a street interviewer. You know these guys that just. take someone off the street and they. tape it. Yes. >> his name. Yeah, so. >> So, we were we just had a little. technical glitch. So, you were talking.

about one of those guys that interviews. people in the street. >> So, he he goes and intercepts this woman. who's at a I guess like a you know, free. free Palestine. you know, rally. >> Mhm. And he says, "Oh, you're you're for. Palestine?" She goes, "Yes." She goes, "Well, what do you think about their. positions on you know, queer people?". She goes, "Well, I'm queer." He goes, "Oh, you're queer? So, what what do you. think about what they would do to you?". She goes, "Well, they would kill me." He. goes, "But then you still support them?". She goes, "Yes." He goes, "But it. doesn't bother you that you're. supporting a group that would kill you.

for the way that you are?" She goes, "No, the fact that they would kill me. doesn't mean that they don't deserve my. support." Well, that's the wood cricket, right? I mean, there is no evolutionary. mechanism that says I'm going to build. an affiliation with a group that I know. would kill me. But, she is so kind, she's so empathetic, she so transcends. the earthly survival instincts that she. has ascended to a higher plane of. suicidal empathy. So, it literally is.

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personal note, so it actually feels like. you planned it all along. Order on Uber. Eats today. Must be 21 or older to. purchase alcohol. Product availability. varies per region. See app for details. Right, but in that situation, what. they're doing is they're being motivated. by what they see as a complete. destruction of Gaza. >> Right. So, it's it's a different. situation. Because if if that if like. there was no attacks on Gaza and Gaza. was its own,

you know, autonomous or completely. separate state, and it wasn't controlled. by Israel, and there was no conflict, I doubt they. would have the same mindset. Like, the. mindset is coming out of watching the. destruction of Gaza. And so, then. instead of saying, "Hey, we shouldn't. just be bombing this city into oblivion. and supporting this,". instead they go all the way and support. the ideology of the authoritarian rulers.

of this area, which is kind of kooky. Yeah. But it's. like it's but it's much like a religion. It's a you can abandon all logic. as long as you adhere to and you you you. have to in fact if you want to be. accepted. And this is one of the the. things about the left is like there's. never someone left enough. And when you think you're left enough, they move the border. They move the. boundary lines. The goal posts are like.

a mile further to the left. You're like, "Oh god, I got to support drag queens. teaching kids now by themselves? No. parental supervision?" Twerking? It's. like. it just keeps getting nuttier and. nuttier to where any protest of it is. heresy. Yeah. And that's where it gets. very strange and it behaves in. completely like a religion. >> Yeah. Other examples of suicidal empathy, uh. so I tell I talk about in the book about. something I introduce as cultural theory.

of mind. Right, so theory of mind is as. I discussed earlier, it's at the. individual level. For you and I to have. a meaningful conversation, I need to be. in your mind and vice versa. >> Right. Cultural theory of mind is the. same principle, but it operates at the. cultural level. So, if culture A has a. set of values that it adheres to and if. it presumes that those values are. processed in exactly the same way by the. other culture and that's that's a wrong. presumption, I argue that that culture.

then lacks cultural theory of mind. because it is assuming that its values. transcend in exactly the same way to. other cultures. Now, why is that related. to suicidal empathy? So, if you take for. example the values that we hold dear in. the West, magnanimity, generosity, kindness, empathy, they're interpreted in other societies. as weakness, weakness, weakness, and. weakness. And this is why I I'm I don't.

remember if I mentioned this to you. before on the show or not. In Arabic, when people would speak to me, I mean. many years ago before I mean now they. recognize me, so they're they're not. going to be as forthright in their. positions, but 25 years ago, they would. all tell me the West is a woman to be. mounted. Well, the reason why they're. saying that. >> all tell you that? >> not all, but. but it was a it was a saying that is. often, uh, you know, intimated. >> Was this when you were living in. Lebanon? >> No, no, no, in in Montreal. >> Montreal. >> In Montreal.

>> You should tell people just my. background. Yeah, because it's it's, you. know, it's it's very pertinent. Sure. Uh, so I was born in 1964 in Lebanon. My. family were part of the last remaining. minuscule community of Lebanese Jews. Historically, there was always a a. small, but, you know, uh, pretty vibrant. Jewish community. Most of the Jews had. left prior to the start of the civil. war, which happened in '75. I was 11.

Uh, because they'd already read the. writing on the wall. So, most of my. extended family, my aunts, my uncles, my. grandparents had left to various places. Most of them to Israel, but some of them. to Montreal, Canada. That's why we ended. up going to Montreal ourselves. But, my. parents had refused to leave because. they were very, well, entrenched within. Lebanese society. They had nice business. and so on. My older sibling I have three. other siblings. One is 14 years older, one is 12 years older, and one is 10.

years older. The one who's 10 years. older is the Olympian judoka that that. played in the that competed in the. Montreal Olympics in 1976. Uh, so they. already had left Lebanon prior to the. start of the civil war because they had. started facing some Jew hatred. difficulties and even in tolerant, progressive Lebanon. Unfortunately for me, being the last 10. years younger than everybody else, I was. still a kid. We got caught up once the civil war.

broke out. Some really bad things happened during. that first year, but then we were able, thank God, to escape to. Montreal. But then my parents kept returning to. Lebanon. uh because they still had business. interests. So, they would go back to. Lebanon from 1975 to 1980. On one of. their return trips to Lebanon they were. kidnapped by Abu Nidal's group. Fatah. And some really, you know, bad things.

happened during their captivity, very. much like the stuff that you hear about. on October 7th, but luckily, they. weren't killed. They were able to, you. know, be freed. I mean, they weren't. freed through a commando operation. They. were freed through the connections that. my parents had. Uh my mother's um best friend was a. Syrian woman, Syrian Muslim woman, who was the personal dresser of Hafez. al-Assad, the. the the father of uh Bashar al-Assad,

the the one who was recently deposed. And so, through him. uh my my. uh siblings reached out to this woman. Her name was Ehsan. I think she's passed. away now. Uh she got uh the father. involved. He reached out to Yasser. Arafat, who was the head of the PLO back. then. Uh. as I understand the story, Yasser Arafat said, "Well, I don't even. know whether they were with one of our. groups. Let me do you know, make some.

calls.". But at the time, there was sort of a. battle between Yasser Arafat and Abu. Nidal. And he said, "If if he if it's. the Abu Nidal gang that took him, you. know, good luck." And it was the Abu. Nidal group. But I'm guessing there was. some money that was exchanged. My. parents were freed. When my father returned, he had a. a temporary facial paralysis akin to. when you have a. really severe stroke and your face is.

completely disfigured and asymmetric. What Guillain-Barré? Is that what it's. called? But it was it it got resolved. And so. for about I don't know how long it was, maybe a month or two, his face was. completely Yeah. asymmetric, probably. due to Stress. the things that happened. to him. Yeah. Uh and actually I I mean, some of the stuff I may have briefly. mentioned on this show, but here's a. part that I I'm almost certain I didn't. mention. At one point that the the militia group. was trying to get my parents to um sign.

a confession letter that they are. Israeli spies, which if you met my. parents, you would know that that's not. a very likely a reality because it turns. out that if they sign that, then they could legally execute them. And the guy who had started this whole. thing was the owner of the building. where my dad owned the store. And if. they could now get rid of them, the. store would. So it wasn't even like a religious. thing. It was for one of the seven. deadly sins of greed, at least as I.

understand it. And anyways, and so at. one point they had separated my parents. and they were trying to. put a lot of pressure on each of them to. sign this thing. And they go to my. mother and say, you know, you know, admit that you know, you're a spy or. whatever, Israeli agent. And she's like, are you are you crazy? I mean, just go. ask my husband, you know. And they they. kind of mockingly say, "Oh, well, your. husband has gone to join his God.". Meaning that they've already killed him. So then my mother is in her little cell.

and they you know, they're doing bad. things to them. And she hears my dad. late at night in some other part of. wherever they were keeping him. He had a. very. whooping kind of cough, like a like a. cough as if like I actually I have a. similar cough. I used to be asthmatic, so I I have this very deep and loud. cough. And so, she was hearing that. cough, but she wasn't sure if she's just. hallucinating this in her thoughts or. whether it was real. Well, it turned out.

that it what they hadn't killed them, but they were just trying to lean in on. her. And so, that's the background that I. come from. Yeah, so you are very tuned in to what. could possibly go wrong. Unfortunately, yes. And and. this is why I mean, many times when I've. come on this show, you know, I've talked. about some of those difficulties that, you know, all religions. are not indistinguishable from each. other. All religion I mean, religions. have certain features that might be.

transferable from one religion to the. other. Right. But, there are many. elements that are very specific to a. given religion. Sure. If you're an. extremist Jain, then you really take. your. uh. using this. uh the. sweeping thing. When you you know, when. they walk, they use a broom so that they. inadvertently don't step on an ant and. kill it. So, an extremist extremist, in. quotes, Jain, someone who really takes. his religion seriously, is someone who's.

going to be extremist in his pacifism. Right. Right? Now, that religion has. very very different ethics about how to. conduct yourself even when you're. walking on a sidewalk than maybe will an. Abrahamic faith, whether it be Judaism. or Christianity or Islam. So, the idea. that ultimately all religions are simply. preaching the same indistinguishable. thing in slightly different ways is. simply not true. But, it feels good to think that, right?

It's empathetic for us to think that. We. should never speak amongst mixed company. about politics and religion. So, therefore, if I start saying something. that might be. pejorative of another religion, that. feels icky, that feels gauche. Right? And that's why by the way, earlier you mentioned that when we're. talking about this uh. when I asked you, are Americans more. likely now to talk openly about Islam, you said, well, the Democrats are more. terrified to do so than the Republicans. But even the Republicans are to some.

extent suicidally empathetic because if. you watch, even the ones who very. forcefully criticize Islam. as being incongruent with, you know, American values, they'll always use. linguistic coverage to protect Islam. So, it's Islamism. Yes. >> It's radical Islam. It's radical. >> with that? No. No? Not at all. So, a political Islam and Islamism.

is a indelible, inherent feature of. Islam. Much of Islam is Islamism. So, if. you do a content analysis of all of the. canonical texts of Islam, which are the. Quran, the Hadith, the the deeds and the. sayings of Muhammad, and the Sira, which. is the biography of Muhammad, you could. do a quantitative analysis of how often. is it preaching brotherly love, how. often is it really concerned about the. infidels, how And so, Islam in its.

nature is political. Why? There are many. reasons why, but let me just give you. one. And then if you want to drill down, we can do so. Islam is a fully proselytizing language. religion, meaning that it is incumbent. in an ideal world to turn the entire. world into the one true faith. It is a. peaceful religion if by peaceful it. means the following, eventually.

the entire globe, every millimeter of. the globe will will united under the. unifying flag of Allah. Now, let's take for example Judaism, and. it's not because I'm Jewish, but it's. it's just to compare. Judaism is precisely the opposite. It is. it is an anti-proselytizing. language. You're not allowed to. proselytize. As a matter of fact, if you. proselytize, let's say I try to convince you, Joe, "You know, why don't you join the. tribe?" And you say, "You know what? I.

think I'd like to." It's a grind. It's a. grind, exactly. >> My uncle did it. Well, there you go. Thank you. So, the it is literally in. the canons of Judaism to try to dissuade. the prospective convert to coming into. the fold because the the idea is to have. a costly signal of your commitment, your. your your religious piety to want to. join the group. So, it is a grind. It's. very hard. In Islam, you just have to. say the one proclamation, the Shahada,

one sentence, and you're in. Now, try to. get out. There are apostasy laws against. you getting out. So, the the the. circuitry. of Islam is one that is expansionist. That's why you have 2 billion Muslims. One out of every four human beings is. Muslim, and it only took 1,400 years for. that. So, from a marketing perspective, as someone who studies consumer. behavior, Islam is a brilliant marketing. religion. It has found a way to get a.

lot of customers and adherents. Judaism. sucks at marketing because the entire. circuitry of Judaism is meant to keep it. very, very small. And so, which one is. likely to lead to greater problems? The. one that is meant to ensure that all of. us become Muslim, or the one that says, "Even if your uncle wants to become. Jewish, we're going to put the barriers so so. high that nobody will ever become.

Jewish." So, we still have only 15. million Jews roughly in the world, almost the same as we had before the. Holocaust. So, Judaism sucks as a. marketing religion, Islam incredibly. successful. In this country, the concern with. Judaism is the support of the Israeli. military. Right. >> That's the concern. The The concern is. the amount of influence that it has on. the United States government, how we got. into the Iran war, why we give them so. much influence over our military, over.

our decision-making, over our politicians. I mean, AIPAC. famously. promotes and supports a tremendous. amount of politicians in the United. States. That's That's the big fear, is. that there's there's an inordinate. amount of influence that Israel has over. foreign policy, our our decisions, and even our political structure in the. country. Right. Several ways to tackle this.

Say the Iran war. Take Israel out of it. Do you think that the Do you think there. are multiple countries that would share. in the recognition that probably a. Iranian regime that hasn't uh. eschatology that basically says the end. of times requires that there is sort of. death to everybody before the final. uh you know uh Imam comes back.

Would it be a good idea for the Brits or. the Romanians or the French or some of. the other the the Gulf countries, would. they be happy if Iran had a nuclear. weapon? So, to to to frame the issue of. the US is attacking or is involved in. the attack on the Iranians as, you know, the United States doesn't have personal. agency. They're all wood crickets that. are being puppeteered by this incredibly. powerful lobby called Israel. That.

simply doesn't pass the smell test. Of. course, Israel has shared interests with. the United States as most allies would. where they both agree that probably an. Iranian regime that has nuclear weapons. should would not be a good thing for. world world peace. And so because these. two countries have maybe greater. testicular fortitude than the NATO. countries, it seems as though the the. Israelis are puppeteering the the the. the the Americans. But do you really. think that Donald Trump is sitting and.

saying, "You know, had I not been such a. weak guy with no personal agency, I. wouldn't have fallen sway to the. incredibly influential Zionist lobby?". Well, it's not just incredibly. influential. It's the amount of. financial support they gave his. candidacy. And again, all the different politicians. that are beholden to Israel. That's the. concern that a lot of people on the. right and on the left have here in. America. So I. >> Most people in America do not support.

this war. It's the the the large percentage of. people think it was a bad idea. What are. your What are your thoughts? >> I don't think it's a good idea. But I. Well, because first of all, it doesn't. seem to have a clear resolution, right? It's like. we went over there because we were told. that they were very close to developing. a nuclear weapon. But if you paid. attention to what Netanyahu has said. over the last few decades, it's always. been they're a year away, they're 2. months away, they're whatever it is. I. mean, he's been doing this forever. Ever.

since he spoke at the UN and had that. giant cartoon bomb. Remember the the. Looney Tunes bomb? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he spoke at the UN, I. remember that. >> enrichment of uranium. He's wanted this for a long time. There's also deep concern that he is. only in office because of the war. And. he has corruption charges in Israel. And. that in order for him to stay in power. and for him to avoid going to trial, he. has to continue war.

Can I comment on that? >> Sure. Let's suppose you go to see your. physician and your physician says, "Hey. Joe, God forbid, it looks like your. blood sugar is very high and I'm going. to classify you as now, never mind. pre-diabetic, I think you're diabetic. And if we don't manage your sugar. levels, there will come a day where I. can tell you exactly what's going to. happen. We're going to have to amputate. your extremities. You're probably going. to lose your eyesight. You're probably.

going to have sexual dysfunction and. you're probably going to have some. cardiovascular incident.". That doesn't happen on day two of you. having been diagnosed with diabetes. Like there's a trajectory and at some. point there'll be a tipping point where. until then none of the diabetes. complications happen. And why am I. saying all this? Because I I can't comment as to whether. he's been lying all the times when he. said it's there's two more years left or. one more year or six more months.

But surely we can grant the American. government enough leeway to presume that. if they thought that at this point it's. the right time and it is now intolerable. for them to go another day with the. current reality that they probably had. some intelligence that suggests that. they are close. So I can't comment. whether. Netanyahu was pulling our eyes. But. surely it can't be that the Israelis are. so manipulative in their puppeteering.

that they've pulled the wool over the. American eyes and really there's no. danger that the Iranians were posing and. we've convinced the Americans to go to. war. Do Do you think that it it is that? Do you Well, I wouldn't say there's no. danger, right? So here's here's one. thing that we do know. They had said. [clears throat]. that their missiles could only reach uh. a certain distance. That proved to not. be true. >> Right. Because of the Diego Garcia. missile launch. Right. So, they they. have missiles that are capable of. reaching Europe. And that was not.

something they had said before. Um we. know that they have enriched their. uranium beyond what they need for. nuclear power. >> Right. And that they're within striking. distance of developing a nuclear weapon. >> Right. But wasn't it true that they had. put See, this is It's hard to know as me. as a person sitting on podcast studio in. Texas exactly what their ruling had.

been. But that they had only done this. in order to. avoid the possibility of them being. attacked. That they would get close to a. nuclear weapon, so at least it would. it would deter some some potential. attacks on them. And that they were. doing this out of self-interest. Um. there's a a large group of American. politicians that did not want this war, that did not think it was warranted to.

attack Iran at this point. Can I Yeah. Okay. So, I think I've mentioned on the show. before these this distinction between. deontological ethics, absolute. statements, it is never okay to lie. versus consequentialist ethics. It's. okay to lie if it is meant to spare. someone's hurt feelings, right? So, if. your wife says, "Do I look fat in those. jeans?" You put on your consequentialist. hat and you say, "You've never looked. more beautiful." because maybe she's put. on a bit of weight, but you don't want. to hurt her feelings, so you lie to And.

And for most of us, we go through life. on most instances putting on a. consequentialist hat, okay? And I'm. going to link it now to to our. discussion. To have, for example, a deontological. principle that says that I am always an. isolationist. Do you understand what I. mean by here deontological? Meaning that. it doesn't matter what the environment. is out there, I, as America, will never. interfere in wars over there. That can't.

be an optimal strategy, right? Because. So, for example, if you were a. deontological pacifist, you say, "Under no circumstances do I believe. that violence is the solution." Well, what would usually happen to a society. if it adhered to deontological pacifism? >> They'd be attacked. They'd be. eradicated, right? So, it can't be that. for some of these geopolitical issues. there is a rule that in its nature is. deontological. So, many of the Americans.

that are. anti this war are very, very staunchly. steeped and sort of a. libertarian/deontological. isolationist perspective. Now, in many. cases, I would completely agree with. that position in that it's not the. Americans. position to have to go and be the. policeman of everywhere in the world. But, let's contrast, let's say, with. with when World War II was about to. happen, the appeasement strategy of. Chamberlain, right? This guy with the.

little mustache says, "Don't worry about. it. I absolutely have no desire to do. anything about You swear, Adolf? It's. all good. Yeah, yeah, don't worry. Promise you really don't even though. you're moving all of your stuff, you're. a good guy, right? I can trust you. Yeah, yeah, of course you can." So, appeasement only works if the other. person is someone that can be fully. trustworthy. It is almost incontestable. that if the Iranian regime in its. current form could ever cause great. damage to everybody, not only Israel,

right? I mean, the Gulf countries are. not exactly putting up barriers against. this war because. they're also are the enemies of the. Iranians. So, the. it's undoubtable that of course the. Americans have the Israelis in their ear. pushing for their self-interest. But, that's also called the reality of every. nation on earth. Every Every entity. fights for its own interest. But, that. doesn't mean that the Americans are so. lacking in personal agency, are so.

gullible, are so easy to puppeteer that. it there must be the Zionist lobby that. otherwise is pushing us into an. unnecessary war. Maybe another 3 years. Maybe another 5. years. Maybe another 10 years. It would. have resulted in a disaster. So, if you. are a universalist and you want the. Iranian people to maximally flourish, forget about Israel. Don't even mention. the word Israel. Do you not want these. 90 million people called Iranians who.

have a deeply rich historical, you know, heritage to flourish? I've had. many graduate students who are Iranians. in my classes and so on. They're some of. the most modern, secular, outward-looking Westerners that have. been choked for 47 years by a really. nasty regime. So, maybe we could. celebrate that if all if all this goes. well, 90 million people are going to be. freed and I could say that statement. without ever invoking Israel. What do.

you think about that? Well, I think the. reason why they're in the situation. they're in in the first place is because. the United States. It's cuz the United. States and the British Petroleum. Company. It's because they were trying. to nationalize oil. That's what That's. what happened in the first place. >> Revolution? >> Yes. This is how it started in the first. place. They realized that the British. Petroleum Company was making a ton of. money and they wanted to nationalize oil. and we got rid of them and they. installed this Islamic regime. And.

look at it. there's a lot of consequences for that. down the road. Obviously, the worst side. of it was what happened to the Iranian. people. When you look at the photos and the. videos of Tehran from like the the 1950s. and 1960s, I mean my god, it looks like. a Western society. Women wearing skirts. and everyone looks it looks very modern. and Western and then it became. this. fundamentalist religious country that it.

is right now. This Islamic country that. it is right now. They're they're under a. regime that. murders protesters. Um they famously. murdered um some high-level wrestlers. There was an Olympic gold medalist in. the United States. Uh the UFC tried to. get involved and tried to keep him from. getting murdered. Um yeah, they they do horrible things. There's no doubt about it. It's a. terrible regime. But there's a really good argument that. that terrible regime is in place because. of the CIA and because of the United.

States government, because the British. Petroleum Company, because we. intervened. And we've done that in the past. We did. that with Libya, right? There's a reason. why Muammar Gaddafi was out. You know, we had uh Russell Crowe, who's a. brilliant guy, on the podcast was like. explaining the history of Libya and how. great it was for Libyan people when. Muammar Gaddafi was in power that. if anybody wanted to get an education. anywhere, they had some certain skills. or talent some certain area, they would.

fully pay for their education overseas. They gave everyone a house. Everyone who. lived there had a home. They I mean. people were educated. They And he was. trying to set up something akin to the. United States, but the United States of. Africa. And you know, and they were like, "We. can't have any of that." And so they got. rid of him and Libya became a failed. state. Like we have monkeyed in other. countries for our own interest for a. long time and with horrible consequences. for the people in those countries. And I. think Iran is an excellent example of.

that. So, how much of. the Islamic regime coming into power in. 1975, if you have a hundred points that you. want to allocate to either it's the US. that causes it versus there's an Islamic. regime with its theology that is really. nasty, how would you allocate the points. in terms of uh. uh you know, the the cause of of that. reality? >> That's a good question. That's a.

question that would be answered by. historians rather than me, but I think. there's no doubt that we played a major. factor in that. Don't you agree with that? So, I mean, yes and no. So, let me explain why I say. yes and no. When you have a complicated. geopolitical system, you can always look You remember the old. butterfly effect, right? There's a. butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon, and then how that reverberates into a. cyclone somewhere else, right?

>> of though. >> No, the But but I mean, the principle of. Great. It's great if you don't. understand how the weather works. Fair. enough. But the idea that there are. causal networks is such that in this. complicated web of causal networks, you. can always find a particular entity that. you can try to link back all of the. causes to that entity. >> But the overthrow of a foreign. government and supporting. uh an Ayatollah to take their place, it's it's a pretty big factor. But so,

that's why I asked you the to allocate. the the hundred points. I I wouldn't I. wouldn't be the guy to answer that. >> I'm going to answer off the top of my. head, and it's completely speculative. So, so, the numbers I'm going to say are. not. Uh let's ascribe 10 out of the hundred. points to whatever. power the US wields in that region to. have allowed that regime to come in. But, that regime carries the other 90. points of the 100 because they are the.

ones who for the next 47 years. implement the reality that the common. person is going to experience. Everything in [snorts] the world can. ultimately be be linked back to oxygen, to the United States, to the military. complex, to the Zionist lobby because in. some very facile way all of those. entities are connected in a meaningful. way in this causal network. But, is. using Occam's razor.

is does it really make sense to blame. For example, people say ISIS is really. due to whatever Israel. I mean, in some facile way. you could draw the causal link of how. there was a vacuum that was created by. the US when they debathized you know, Iraq that allowed the next year. So, do. we blame ISIS on American policy or the. Zionist lobby or or does ISIS itself.

have any personal agency in terms of. what it then does for the next 10 years. that it's in power? Do you see what I'm. saying? I do. So, so. this is the old story I I'm I'm going to. butcher it, but I quoted it in the. parasitic mind. For the man who has a. hammer, he only sees the world as being. made up of the nails, right? So, this is. when you're. you're presuming that there is greater. explanatory power to a particular. cause than there really is.

Every Look, I'll give you an example. Okay. Let's suppose that the night before. uh an eventual dictator. that was going to become a dictator, his. parents felt particularly amorous that. night. And what made them amorous to. then eventually conceive that guy who. became a dictator who killed 3 million. people is that they played Barry White. music. Because Barry White music is. baby-making music. So, it is in a very.

silly way absolutely true that had Barry. White not been such a great singer with. a deep voice that makes the ladies drop. the panties, then those two parents of. the eventual dictator would not have had. sex that night. I will stop you right. there because I don't think there's sex. that's ever been had because only of. Barry White. I think people have been. having sex since the beginning of time. I don't believe it. It's wonderful.

music. I don't think it causes sex. >> Do not criticize Barry White. >> criticizing. I just say it's great. music. I don't believe it. I think. people have been getting it on from the. beginning of time and they probably. would have done the exact same thing. that night if it was Barry White or. Barry Manilow. I don't think it matters. >> So, let's not put Barry White. There was. some facilitating mechanism that. rendered them amorous on that particular. night. Whatever that mechanism is, it is. absolutely true that we can lay the.

blame some blame of that dictator. eventually killing 3 million people. He. would have never been born had they not. had sex exactly at that moment. >> that's a bit of a stretch. But, I think. it's a bit of a stretch when you. actively work to overthrow a. democratically elected government. I mean, so this now we're talking about. what? When they. >> Well, well, and not not even. democratically elected government cuz. Libya wasn't a democratically elected. government, right? Like, not really. Like, let's be honest, right? Like,

Putin's not really a democratically. elected. president of Russia. But, you know what. I mean? But, we 100% funded the rebels. 100% to kill Gaddafi. Right. That's it's our responsibility why Libya. fell. Okay. But if Okay. In that position. [clears throat]. >> 100%. Gaddafi, the way you made him out to be. was I mean he was Robin Hood, right? Gaddafi was a pretty nasty guy. >> no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, egalitarian. beautiful leader out there. They've. never existed because the cold, hard. reality of running enormous groups of. people that are in conflict with other. groups of people is you're going to have. to crack some eggs. You're going to have. to do some terrible things. >> especially in those regions of the world. where if you don't have an incredibly. strong armed guy, then religion comes in. and it becomes the strong guy. So, you. have you have it in Egypt, you have it.

with Saddam Hussein. So, in. with. Hafez al-Assad and then his son. So, so. those guys are. if you're a universalist who wishes for. individual liberties and freedoms to. flourish for everybody around the world, then you're probably not supporting. these guys. Right. Well, okay, we can. use Saddam Hussein as an example. Look. at Look at what happened there. I mean, it became a complete and total disaster. Resulted in the death of at least a. million innocent people.

and didn't do anything positive in terms. of turning that into a beautiful. Western-style democracy. >> Yeah. But by the way, that last. sentence, I would argue that that's because of the. Americans lack of cultural theory of. mind because they presume that the. desire to have democracy around the. world is exactly what everybody wants. and therefore they're culturally blind. to the fact that other places around the. world may not share our own affinity for.

democracy. >> just that, but culturally ignorant to. the fact that there's Sunni and Shia. Muslims and they were going to fight. with each other. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Now, but you Okay, so. so the Americans come in, they create a. bad set of ecosystems that permits for. ISIS to flourish. At what point would. you, in your causal link of. explanations, shift from. the catalyst of the Americans having. done something that allowed ISIS to. flourish to then saying, "Starting at.

time T, my causal weaponry is going to. be targeting ISIS moving forward." Well, it's a good question because like why. did ISIS flourish in the first place? Was it because of the removal of Saddam. Hussein? Was it because of the. overthrowing of the country? I mean, wasn't that. >> It It was. Yeah. So, if that didn't take. place, what would. Iran and Iraq look like right now? Right. But So, think about all of the. people that have suffered horrifyingly.

as a result of ISIS. If you are a. individual that's walking around who is. the recipient of that brutality, what. would make more sense if you're engaging. in statistical inferencing? Would it be. to say, "You know, the guy that's about. to stick string me up because I looked. at a girl wrong and he's going to cut. off my penis and my arms because I. touched the girl. I really can't blame ISIS because really.

it's American foreign policy that. intervened in Iraq." That's not how. people navigate through their day. >> you get to that? I mean, the guy getting his penis chopped off. and his arms chopped off, where did you. How did you get there? >> like you know how under Sharia law there. are very strict rules about that govern. the dynamics between men and women, right? So, I was just being hyperbolic, but let's say whatever the punishment. is. You You stole a loaf of bread under. Sharia law, we cut off your hand, right? So, let's say you're a 12-year-old kid. who just stole a loaf of bread from the.

souk, and the ISIS commanders have. caught you. And they're about to institute Sharia. law by cutting off your hand because. you're a thief. Would would would it be. natural for you or your parents, the. parents of the 12-year-old, who are. crying because they're about to see. their hand the hand of their child cut. off, would they say, "I really can't be. upset at ISIS and their brutality. because I ultimately ISIS only came in. because of the geopolitical intervention.

of the United States?" Do you Do you. think that that would be a reasonable. account? >> The the whole idea sucks. Like the. And that sucks. >> complete imprisonment of any group of. people under a totalitarian regime is. terrible. But that's it, full stop. >> is how were they funded? How did they. get into the position that they got into. in the first place? How did they rise to. power? But nothing can happen. >> how much of it is because of our. meddling that they rose to power in the. first place? So, let's suppose we hadn't. meddled. We So, we meddled, we meaning.

the United States, let's say. We And I'm. glad that I'm now including myself with. the we. >> We. Almost. You're close. You're getting. there. So, we meddled because whatever. calculus, some of it was incorrect. Maybe there was no weapons of mass. destruction. I mean, Saddam Hussein was. a horrifying guy. I think if if you. asked me to rank all of them, maybe in. terms of pure evil, he might have been. the biggest of all the thugs, right? Uh. and and this is. >> sons are greater than their father. >> worse, maybe, right? Horrific.

>> that they were doing. It's just really. defies. Complete serial killers. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, now if I am a typical Iraqi. who's going about my business, I really. would like to not live under Saddam. Hussein's. thumb, and I probably don't want to live. under, you know, ISIS' thumb. In an. ideal world, I could live with complete. dignity and and, you know, liberty and. so on. The Americans with all of their.

miscalculations maybe naively thought. that we'll come in and then Kumbaya, we. will create a new democracy in Iraq. They completely miscalculated. But the root cause of the daily evil. that the Iraqis go through cannot be put. on the broad shoulders of the Americans. because then that removes the personal. agency of the actors in their daily. lives that are causing them all the. pain. But there is a reflex and there I.

say, forgive me, a suicidally empathetic. reflex that renders you somehow. progressively sophisticated if you. always turn all of the world's ills on. your own society. I agree with you and. what you're saying, but the reason why. we're there was not because we wanted to. help people. The whole reason why they. came up with this fake weapons of mass. destruction narrative is because they. wanted to control the oil. I I I really can't speak to that. You. You could be right. >> Oh, 100% I'm right. Yeah. There's.

We're not doing that for. to help people. We didn't go to Iraq to. help people. It didn't even make sense. that we were in there. They weren't. involved in 9/11. The whole idea was. nuts. Okay, so let me I think the whole. weapons of mass destruction narrative. was complete that was cooked up. to give it an excuse to go over there. and take over the oil. >> willfully so. It's not they made an. error, they knew it was. >> Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot of. evidence to that. There's There's no. evidence that they had weapons of mass. destruction as described by everybody to.

give the motivation for us to support. the war. Okay, so let me. maybe as the. distinguished professor of the. Declaration of Independence Center for. the Study of American Freedom, I hope. University of Mississippi will be happy. that I'm defending the United States. as a Canadian, not yet American, but. inshallah soon. Uh. >> [laughter]. >> Is it not true that. the default reality of every unit, whether it be an individual, a grouping,

a country, will typically, all other. things equal, try to pursue policies. that are in its best interest, right? So, when when when Trump says, "America. first, MAGA, and all this." That's what. he's appealing to, yes? >> So, does the US ever do things that. might be. uh less than savory because they're. pursuing their selfish interests? 100%. and we can come up, right? But, that.

makes them a country made up of these. things called human beings. In other. words, no society has ever been created. that is made up of these utopian. machines that, as they navigate the. world, they look to the other for their. unless they are suicidally empathetic. So, the US is made up of real human. beings endowed with real brains whereby. they might say, "Hey, maybe if we take. their oil and concoct a strategy, make. Now, is that good or bad?" We can debate.

it. But, in the grand buffet of. societies that have ever held power, does the U and never mind the the power. asymmetry that the US has vis-à-vis. everybody else, is it the most. restrained society ever? If the United. States today said, "We need more. beaches. All the Caribbeans are becoming. the 51st state." Could anybody do. anything about that? No. Yet, they. don't. So, I think it would be good,

certainly for Americans and me as an. honorary American, to say, "Does Does. America do sometimes things that are. less than perfect in a utopian world?". 100% yes, you're right. I can see that. Does it wield its power in the most. gentle ways compared to what it could do. and in compared to what other societies. if they had that power would do. I think. that America does pretty well, no? Am I too Am I too rosy about my views of. America? Well, that's.

an interesting question because China. doesn't meddle in other countries the. way we do and they have a similar. military might. Not quite commensurate, Yeah. but pretty. similar. Like you don't see them. invading other countries and doing the. type of things that we do and I don't. know if they threatened to Taiwan. But they believe that Taiwan is a part. they call it Chinese Taipei, right? >> So, I'm going to use here some Arabic. words which I'll try to explain in. English, but maybe to your Arabic. listeners they'll appreciate it. The. Chinese have greater what honey and nest.

nasty. They are duplicities in the way. they do that stuff, right? They caress. you. >> They caress you this way while they. take, right? So, yes, they are using a. different modality to wield their power. compared to the brash rah rah rah. Americans, but let's not sort of. romanticize what the Chinese could do, right? >> taking advantage of the openness of. American society. They're they've.

infiltrated universities, they've. infiltrated a lot of tech sectors. They've sold American military a bunch. of cell phone towers that are. surrounding military bases that may or. may not be transmitting data. We've had. to kick Huawei out of the country. because it turns out that a lot of their. equipment could be used for spying. Like. they buy farmland all around military. bases. They're doing a lot of things to. take advantage of our silliness, but. that's because we should have better.

laws to prevent. you know, what's essentially. not our friends from doing that. >> Yeah. I mean, you can call them an enemy. nation or whatever you want to call. them, but we shouldn't be allowing a. foreign nation that we're in conflict. with to control land around military. bases. That's just stupid. But, that's. because of our capitalist society. I. mean, you can't even you can't own a. business in China. You can't go over. there and buy stuff. Like, you you can't.

do it. You can be in business with them, and then you know what they do? They. just kick you out and take over it. Right. >> Change the name of it and take over all. the IP, and you're gone. Bye-bye. And. there's not a thing you can do. about it because they don't have an open. society like we do. Well, and think. about I mean, if if we're doing the. ledger of sort of cruelty and evil, we. could talk about how the US versus China. wields power around the world. But, how. about internally, domestically? We had a. guy called Mao Zedong that was kind of. pretty brutal. That if we do the history.

of China in terms of how many millions. of people were killed by that regime. versus anything that's happened in the. US. Has the US been perfect in the past 250. years? Absolutely not. >> No, there's never been a perfect regime. >> Exactly. So, >> There's no perfect regimes. And you. know, look look at what they did just. with their one-child policy. There you. go. I mean, there's a lot wrong with the. way China does things, you know, but So, to me, once I. Maybe that's why. University of Mississippi was keen on. having me come be.

I look at the United States as someone. who. Thank you for your earlier question. about sort of where do you come from, Gad? Tell us your story. Some of the biggest defenders of the. United States are typically It might. sound paradoxical, but if you think. about it, it's not. Are usually. immigrants who have sampled from the. wide variety of buffets of societies out. there. Mhm. Therefore, we know that the. anomaly called the United States is. truly an anomaly. Whereas, the American.

wakes up in his life, and he thinks that. the liberties and freedoms that you have. in the United States are just a default. value. That's just the way it is. It. isn't. That's what makes the United. States great. So, for me. By the way, that that also explains why. people think, for example, that I defend. Israel because I'm Jewish. There is an. element to that. I mean, most of my. family's in Israel. But, it's really I. defend Israel because many of its values.

are congruent with those that we hold. dear in the United States. So, given the. region of the Middle East, if I'm going. to send my daughter or yours to some. university to study, I would much rather. for her to be in a society in Tel Aviv. or Haifa than I would in many of the. other places. So, it's in that sense. that I'm pro-Israel. So, if you ask me. to allocate 100 points to how much of my. support of Israel is due to the fact.

that many of its foundational values are. similar to those of the United States. versus the fact that I'm Jewish and. Israel is a Israel is a Jewish state, I. would say 80/20 former for the latter, meaning that I am defending the. civilizational values of Israel in a. very, very difficult and belligerent. neighborhood. Does Israel always do. things perfectly? No. Do they have. politicians that are corrupt? Yes. Uh. have have.

pedophiles who did bad things here try. to go there and have a legal up. meaning get residency there uh and run. away from thing Yes, but it could also. be the case that a bank robber or. pedophile goes back to Thailand if there. are no extradition uh you know, mechanisms to bring them back to the to. the United States. So, my position of. defending the United States or Israel or. whomever else really stems from some. foundational values of liberty and. freedom. There is no conceivable place.

in the world where, given the. neighborhood that Israel exists in, one. would conceivably defend any of those. other societies instead of Israel if the. metrics that you care about are personal. liberties and freedoms. We could then. debate specific policies and you'd be. completely in your right to say, "I. don't like when the Israeli government. does this." But, well, let me ask you and forgive me for. asking you a personal question. If, let's say, your daughter today said,

"Dad, I'd like to go and just study one. year abroad.". And it's going to be somewhere in the. Middle East. You, Joe Rogan, how likely. would you be to support her going in the. Middle East to a university other than. in Israel? That's interesting. Um. when you say the Middle East, you mean. like Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates? Cuz I think it's pretty safe there. Okay, so I'll get You're right, that's. true. And and I'm By the way, I'm loving.

the openness that many of these. countries are exhibiting and I'll tell. you I'll tell you a quick personal story. and then I'd I'd love to then hear your. your. I was approached by Al Arabiya. Al. Arabiya is the premier news network from. They're Saudi. But they were actually. located in Dubai. And Riz Khan, who was the anchor that. was flying from Dubai to interview me in. Montreal for Al Arabiya, he used to be. the.

main anchor, I think, at uh BBC Global. or CNN Global. I said to Riz, "Are Are we going to be. talking about things like Islam and. these kind of He goes, "Yeah, yeah, feel. free to talk about whatever you want." I. said, "Well, I'm I'm not worried so much. about me, but you're going to have to go. back to that region. Are you. comfortable? Like, can I I mean, I'll be. very professorial and proper, but I will. say some difficult truths." He goes, "Say whatever you want.". That aired. It was a 2-hour conversation. where we you know, we talked about all.

sorts of things, but we talked about. Islam. And then he said, "They loved. you." About a month or two later, another state another show contacted me, and I went also on Al Arabiya, and then. they even wanted to offer me a show. Now, the Saudi group is offering the. Lebanese Jew who's often been critical. of some of the tenets of Islam. So, I'm. very optimistic about that. So, I agree. with you that if your daughter wanted to. perhaps go to some places in the Gulf. countries,

you'd probably condone it and support. it. But, that would make it too easy. So, let me choose which country should I. go. >> too easy, but that is the Middle East. and they are there are Islamic. countries. >> Well, because those countries are having. a revival of modernity. So, >> Right. Well, maybe that's what we should. talk about because is that possible with. Islam that they could have a revival of. modernity across the entire country? Like imagine if Iraq, Iran, all these. countries were run like Saudi Arabia or. run like the United Arab Emirates. You. would have a a much more peaceful.

environment, wouldn't you? Uh yeah. So, I'm going to be now very optimistic. There is a. package of cultural richness in the. Middle East like no other. And I come from the region. Arabic's my. mother tongue. The the spirit of. generosity, the spirit of loyalty when. you're in the group, the hospitality is. like no other. Actually, I recently was. telling some folks in Mississippi that. the the Mississippians remind me as. though they were honorary Lebanese.

because they're so it's that southern. hospitality. Really like over-the-top. wanting to make you feel good. So, there. are elements of the Middle East that. have such a fabric of richness that if. we can mine that and and quell all of. the tribalism associated with religions, I think it could be one of the most. fertile and rich in places in the world. Now, it depends what we do with Islam. If Islam is something that you practice.

privately as part of a long historical. narrative. So, for example, I'm Jewish. I'm very wedded to my Jewish identity, but I don't take many of the edicts of. Judaism seriously in the practice. I I. don't light the candle at 4:21 for. Shabbat, because if 4:22 God would be. upset at me. But, if I went to the. Rabbi, he'd say "It has to be at 4:21.". So, I pick and choose, cafeteria Jew, I.

pick and choose the parts that I wish to. >> Cafeteria Jew, I like that. I don't. practice some soft version of Judaism. that allows for the eating of pork and. shrimps. I simply say, "I'm a glutton. that likes to eat well, and shrimps and. some pork taste really good. So, I'm. just going to ignore those parts." I. think I think if Islam could allow for. that cafeteria, which by the way, many Muslims do now,

right? Like, not. hundreds of Muslims Exactly. Hundreds of. millions of Muslims want to cause zero. harm to Jews. Right. So, the problem is. radical Islamism, like we were talking. about before. So, you kind of agree. >> It's just Islam, and I choose to ignore. the parts that I don't like. You're. putting an appellation on Islam that is. unnecessary. Islam is made up of many. tenets. It's not radical Islam. There is no book.

called radical Islam. There's only. Islam. I mean, Erdogan said, "There is. no moderate Islam. There's just Islam.". So, is he an Islamophobe, right? So, there is a bunch of tenets. There's the one that says, "Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, take a break, continue. killing.". that. I'm going to ignore it. because I'm a good person, right? Because there are mean Jews and nice. Jews, mean Muslims, nice Muslims. So, many of. >> of it. >> Right. So, if there is a way to maintain.

the Islamic heritage, there's Islamic. architecture, there's Islamic poetry, there's Islamic philosophy. There was a period in under Islamic rule. where many of the ancient texts from, you know, Greek philosophy were. safeguarded by Islam, right? So, it's. not as though that entire civilization. is void of incredibly rich things. But, there are unfortunately elements of the. religion that are not congruent with.

Western values. If there is a way for us. from this side of our mouth to honor. Islamic architecture and poetry, and. from this side of our mouth forget the. parts that says kill, kill, kill. everyone, then I think you could have. wonderful flourishing. >> For it to evolve then. Exactly. >> Yeah. I see what you're saying. You. know, there's a really good argument to. the reason why. ISIS and these various radical. organizations exist is because of the. United States meddling in all these.

countries for decades and decades. You. know, I don't know if you ever saw it, but. Glenn Greenwald was on Bill Maher's. show. And Glenn, he's a very brilliant guy, and he had a very balanced take on it, and he was arguing with Bill Maher. versus. why they behave the way they do, and. making the argument that a lot of it was. because of the United States intervening. in their countries. That we've been over. there and meddling in their countries.

and being meddling in their policies and. their government for so long that this. is the reason why these things happen in. the first place. And I don't know if. you've ever seen it. We we It might do a good thing to to. play it because it was kind of. interesting to watch Bill Maher kind of. push back against it, but. Glenn Greenwald is. very well read and really understands. the the history of this region. I'm not. a huge Glenn Greenwald fan. Uh many of. the positions he's taken I've really. liked. He does seem to have a bit of the.

self-flagellation reflex when it comes. to it all comes down to something that. the US has done that's evil or something. that Israel's done is evil. So, to our. earlier conversation. >> Mhm. there are features that ISIS. believes in that they believe in. independently of anything that the US. could have ever done or will ever do. But, if they were flourishing and we. hadn't intervened in their country, do. do you think it's possible that the rest. of the Middle East could be in a a.

similar Not to say that Saudi Arabia is. perfect, right? The Jamal Khashoggi. thing is horrific. >> Sure. I mean, that just that alone This is a. big criticism for a lot of the American. comedians that went over there and. participated in the Riyadh Comedy. Festival. It's like, do you not know. what this regime did to an American. journalist? Um. but is it possible that these countries. could have evolved in a very similar way. and become. >> Yes.

No. No? You don't think so? >> No. So, so Islam has existed for 1,400. years, right? In those So, why did these countries Why. does the United Arab Emirates Why do. they have a much more open society? Now, I mean, there are all sorts of reasons. Maybe the uh their rulers I I can't. speak. >> a lot of the rulers. They're much more. progressive. >> Exactly. So, they So, they they've. they've taken a pill of pragmatism that. says that we could still maintain our. unique identity while turning an open.

uh arms to the West. And and and it. takes courageous leaders to say, "This. is how we can have these two things. coexist. I could still be fully steeped. in my Muslim identity, but I'm not going. to look as at the other as a dirty. Kuffar, right? The the dirty non-Muslim, right? And so, good for them. That's. great. But, over the 1400 years so. so, we're going to we US is going to. celebrate the 250 year soon, right? Mhm.

Islam has existed for 1400 years. So, we. could very easily temporarily. just go back 250 years prior and remove. anything that could be due to the US. Is. that true? I mean, empirically. Sure. >> Okay. And if we want to remove Israel. from the story, we just have to go to. 1948 and so, that's 70 something years. and then anything that Islam would have. done prior to 1948 could not be blamed. on the Zionist entity. Oh, for sure.

Well, we could go back to the beginning. of the United States where the United. States was being attacked. By by the. by the the Muslim. is that what you're talking about? >> Thomas Jefferson. So, so my point is. >> Tell everybody that story. I don't know. it too well, but. Thomas Jefferson. I think was being belligerent to some. incursions of Muslim piracy or something. like that, right? What Where they said. that it was their right to do so because.

we were infidels. Exactly right. I mean, Winston Churchill has some really savory. quotes about what he thought about his. interactions with Islam. That and now. he's British, he's got nothing to do. with the United States. This was well. before the existence of the Zionist. entity. It is part of the playbook to try to. always blame some other agent other than. our canons for why we're doing what. we're doing, right? >> that's why this is a good conversation, right? This is very nuanced. We're kind.

of laying out both sides of it. That's. why I love coming on the show whenever. you have me on. Um. so, if you crack a I don't mean you, but. anybody who's listening to this, crack a. book to say, "Okay, let me look at the. number of military conquests. where Islam was the offensive party, right? Not we were the But for For. example, people say, "Oh, the Crusades.". Well, the Crusades were a retaliation to.

hundreds of years of Islamic aggression. It's not It didn't come out of nowhere, but there's always what's what I call. the amnesia of causality. People always. forget what was the original starting. point. Under Islam, as I said, the. primary canonical requirement of Islam. is to render the entire world Islamic. Now, again, that doesn't mean that every. Muslim believes this. That doesn't mean. that every Muslim leader believes this.

But we're talking about what's in the. canons of the religion. Right. It is a. violently expansionist ideology. I mean, nothing could be clearer. I've explained. this previously on the show, but if. you'll allow me, I'll explain it again. Islam is has dual logic. Everything in Islam is broken down into. two camps. There is Dar al-Harb and Dar. al-Islam, the house of Islam and the. house of war. Any country that is not.

yet under Islamic dominion is. classified as under the house of war. That's literally the words. Now, any. country that has ever become under. Islamic dominion, ever, and then Islam. loses, canonically it must revert back. to Islam. So, Al-Andalusia, right? Andalusia in the in in current. Spain was at one point controlled by the.

Moors, right? Muslims. Therefore, when. now you hear a lot of these Islamic. extremist guys saying, "Inshallah, we will get back. Al-Andalusia." It's because once it. became ours, it it must always belong to. us. The same argument applies for. Israel. Even though Israel has thousands. of years of lineage of the Jews to that. land as the indigenous rule, you know, owners of that land, the fact that then.

Islam took over that region, that means. it belongs to Muslims. Now, we may. tolerate the Jews to live there, but. there can't be a Jewish state there. canonically in the religion, okay? So, those are Those are just facts. You. could study the history of Islam to. count, okay, there are currently 57, well, if you include the Palestinian. territories, in the Organization of. Islamic Cooperation, the OIC, there are. 56 or 57 countries that are part of that.

block that are Islamic. Each of those countries, once upon a. time, started with 0% Islam, right? I. mean, it wasn't magical. So, Indonesia. was not Islamic once, right? Libya was. not, right? Many of those countries were. Christians, by the way, right? Uh Egypt. was Coptic Christian, Syria was tons of. Christians. Lebanon, within my lifetime, I was born in a Christian majority.

country. Today, within my lifetime and. yours, it has completely flipped to. Muslim majority. So, wherever Islam. goes, sometimes it might take 5 years to. flip it, sometimes it might take 500. years, but as the uh Taliban explained. to us, the American soldiers have the. watches, we have all the time in the. world. So, it's a long project. So, when. Islam comes into the United States, it's.

not as though suddenly the United States. of America is going to become under. Sharia law tomorrow morning. But, if you. have the imagination to extrapolate in. 2-300 years, if you were to repeat. Dearborn and Paterson, New Jersey and. Minneapolis into 20 more cities, 50 more. cities, 100 more cities, would you be. living in the same United States? >> Right. >> And if not, is that a good thing or a. bad thing? >> Well, that's what people are the some. people are very fearful of what's going.

on in New York City with Mondaire Jones. They think it's a Trojan horse. And that under the guise of. progressivism and, you know, democratic. socialism, that you're going to open up. the door and eventually you're going to. have call to prayer in the middle of. Times Square every day. Exactly. Well, listen, I'm wearing right now a Star of. David. Be careful. Exactly. As soon as I'm in New York and I go to. one of those. I mean, I don't as much anymore because.

my stomach's a bit more sensitive as I. get older, but let's say one of those. street vendors, Mhm. I right away put. away my Star of David because I'd love. to have my shawarma without spit in it. The fact that I now even think of that. and that that's a reflex that I have. today, that's not a reflex I had 15. years ago. What changed? Well, what. changed are the demographic realities. that causes that there's a greater. number of people that are triggered by. the Star of David. Demography is indeed.

destiny. So, you and I could fully agree. that most Muslims are perfectly lovely. And I mean, I'm the first one to say this because I. come from that culture. No Muslim has. ever killed me. No Muslim has ever raped. me. But, I do know that I've. spoken to many Muslims befo-. I was known and they knew who I was who. say things about the Jews that would. make Hitler and Himmler go, "Look guys, we also hate the Jews, but I think this. is too much Jew hatred even by our.

standards." So, there is an endemic. feature of Islamic societies that. renders the Jew as the ultimate Shaitan, the ultimate devil. He's demonic, right? It's everywhere. It It It dictates every. interaction. I'll just give you a couple. of examples. In Sharm el-Sheikh, which is a. Red Sea resort area in. Egypt, and Jamie is welcome to. fact-check me if he wants. And I think.

in 2010, there was a spate of. shark attacks on tourists in Sharm. el-Sheikh. Do you remember after the. investigation by the Egyptian. authorities what they concluded? No. Want to take a guess? No. >> [laughter]. >> It was that there is very, very clear. evidence that those sharks were. Zionist-trained because the way. Yes, sir. Because Because the way that. you can harm the Egyptian economy, certainly in that region, is to render.

the tourism activity lesser if you have. a, you know, many attacks. And so, I'm. I'm not saying every Egyptian thought. this, but this was coming from the. authorities saying that there's really. very clear evidence that those sharks. were Jewish Okay? Well, hold. on a second. Where wasn't there some. evidence that [snorts] there was. like illegal dumping of carcasses of. animal carcasses offshore? As specific. to that incident? >> Yeah, I think that had something to do.

with the shark activity. Israeli. conspiracy theory attack spark. conspiracy theories possible Israeli. involvement. Egyptian television. broadcast claims from South Sinai. government, Muhammad Abdul Fadil Shosha, that Israeli divers captured a shark. with a GPS unit planted on its back, allegedly by Mossad. Describing the. theory as sad, Professor Muhammad Hanafi. of Suez Canal University. pointed out that GPS devices are used by.

marine biologists to track sharks, not. control them remotely. Okay, but wasn't there something to do. >> Yeah, that's what the last sentence. speaks to what you said. >> Yeah, ultimately thought the dumping of. sheep carcasses there it is during the. Islamic festival of How do you say that? How do you say the festival with him? Oh, uh. Eid al-. Adha. On the 16th November was most likely. explanation. That makes sense. That's. why there was so much shark activity. If. you But the fact that somebody,

somewhere said, "I think this got Jewish. signature all over it.". >> Right, but there's people in the United. States that think the world's flat. You. know, I mean, there's not that doesn't. make mean it makes sense. >> The capacity to be parasitized is hardly. restricted to Muslim minds. Everybody has the capacity to believe. stupidity. So, I agree. But there is. something There is a unique feature of. the Muslim mind that tends to find. causality in all maladies in the Jew. Right. >> And and And by the way, I have a theory,

if I can share it with you here, Okay. uh as to This is not just Islamic Jew. hatred. Why is it that so many societies. end up turning their, you know, animus. towards the Jew. Can I share it with. you? >> Yeah, why do you think that is? So, here. I'm going to use some of the my. psychological background. So, in in In. psychology, there's something called the. self-serving bias. The self-serving bias. is how we attribute causality to the.

wins and losses in our lives. So, most. of us will attribute successes. internally. I did well on the exam. because I'm smart and I studied hard. And. excuse me, we will. attribute attribute. failures externally. I did poorly on the. exam because Professor Saad is an. right? And you can understand. why we would have evolved that rosy. prism. Life is tough. It's an ego. defensive strategy. I do well because of.

me. I do poorly because of the cruel. world out there. Now, imagine if we could find the culprit and. I'll explain why it is specifically the. Jew. Imagine if we could find a culprit, a universal culprit for all of our. individual and collective failures. And. and it's the Jew. But why is it the Jew? Why isn't it the Armenian? Why isn't it. the whatever? Here I'm going to use a term from Amy. Chua. Do you Do you know Amy Chua? >> No. Okay, I I I thought that you she.

might have been on your show. Amy Chua. is actually the mentor of J.D. Vance. She was his. uh professor of law at Yale. She's. written several popular books including. the book on how to raise children as a. tiger mom. Have you Have you heard the. tiger mom book? Sure. You know, this. kind of tough parental Asian excellence. and so on. So, Amy Chua introduced the term I mean, the concept is not hers, but the term is. hers. Market dominant minorities. Meaning,

when you have a small minuscule group of. people in any cultural ecosystem that. are boxing well above their weight. class. Now, in many cases you'll have For. example, you have Lebanese non-Jews, Lebanese who are the business owners all. over West Africa. So, they are fitting. that market dominant minority. They're a. small minority, but they carry all the. business. Okay? So, it's not as though. it's only the Jew that's the only market. dominant minority. Wherever you have.

market-dominant minorities, you have. animus towards that group because the. greater group, many of whom are not. being successful, look at that group. with animus, with envy. The Jews, wherever they are, are always. by definition, short of Israel, are. always a minuscule group that is always. boxing well above their weight class. >> There are several reasons. I think. predominantly, it's really a punishing.

cultural of excellence. And if you want, I can share a story from my own personal. background. And I don't I don't know if. I've ever shared it on this show. When I So, I did my undergraduate in. mathematics computer science, pretty. serious stuff. Then I did an MBA, both. at top universities. Then I was going on. to pursue my MS, Masters of Science, and. PhD. One of the places that I had been. accepted for my PhD was at UC Irvine. I. ended up going to Cornell. At the time, my brother, the judo.

player, was living in Newport Beach. And. he was keen to try to convince me after. my MBA to work with him and, you know, put on hold going on for my PhD. When my mother found out of his design. to try to convince me not to pursue my. PhD, when I returned to Montreal to. their house, she says, "Can I speak to. you in this room?" And I'm thinking, "Oh, oh, am I in trouble?". She goes, "I want to talk to you.". "What's up, Mom?" She goes, "I'm hearing. that you're thinking of maybe putting. your studies on hold." I said, "Well, no." She goes, "Well, I just before you.

say anything, do you want people to know. you as somebody who dropped out of. school?" So, from Now, that's a very. powerful story because in my mother's. eyes, having an MBA and then taking a. break before I pursue a PhD was. something that would bring shame to the. family as someone who had dropped out of. school. Now, do you think that if a. group of people have internalized that. level of excellence, are they likely to. be successful or not? If another group.

of people thinks that getting good. grades is acting white, is that a recipe. for success or not, right? So, cultural. values matter. For whatever reason, whatever is in the water of the Jewish. home, they tend to excel. So, now, wherever they are, they're doing really. well. Well, I wanted to be an actor and. play in the Avengers and I didn't get. the part. Who controls Hollywood? The. Jews. I wanted to get a small business. loan and I didn't get it because my.

numbers weren't quite correct. Who. controls the banks? It's the Jews. So, it becomes very easy to attribute or. ascribe all of my individual and. collective failures on this minuscule. group of people. uh for all of my failings. Thomas. Sowell, whom I know you you appreciate, yes? >> Mhm. gave arguably the greatest one-word. answer that I've ever heard. At one. point, he was appearing on some show. This is not too long ago, maybe 20 years. ago. He's now 95 and I think it's a.

travesty that he hasn't won the. presidential Freedom Medal. And I I pray. that President Trump gives it to him. before he passes away cuz he's deserving. of it. He was asked once, "Professor Sowell, what do you think it will take. for people to stop hating the Jews?" And. he gave a one-word answer. Do you want. to take a Guess what it is? No. Fail. How did Thomas Sowell get this? Cuz he's.

brilliant. If the Jews were suddenly no. longer succeeding in ways that are that. are anomalous to their per capita. numbers, then maybe. they wouldn't be as hated. >> Okay, let me give you an argument. against that. Please. Asians. Uh Asians in this culture, in this. society, it box way above their weight. Extremely disciplined family. environment, pushed incredibly hard to. succeed.

Um, but don't get nearly the kind of. hate that Jewish people do. Uh, so. you're right in the United States that's. the case, but in some of the ecosystems. in the Far East where they are a. minority, I I think it's the I don't. know if it's the Malays, I can't. remember the exact grouping, you have. the almost the exact same animus for. that group that succeeds a lot. And and. actually Thomas Sowell has done those. analyses. So in other words, the point. is it is what I'm describing is not. singularly relevant for the Jew,

but it is universally relevant for the. Jew because there is no other grouping. of people that is as successful in as. many places and yet minuscule in all. those places. So the Armenians also get. that treatment in some ecosystems. The. Lebanese get that treatment. Indians get. that treatment in some ecosystems. So it. is not a unique feature of only animus. towards the Jews, but the fact that in so many societies.

you turn to the Jew to to to blame your. problems, I think stems from that. Don't you think you could also make that. exact same argument that those same. people that are small in number but. hyper motivated and hyper successful. would also be much better at influencing. policy in the country that they live in? Uh, hence meaning that they're more likely. to get the ears, the lobby. >> just the ears, but donate money,

you know, fund campaigns, get the ear of the president, donate. money towards his campaign, fund him. I suspect that the answer is you're. right, yes. Most people would say that. that is absolutely the case. But also we. could say that if we look at the. philanthropy, Jewish philanthropy, compared to all other philanthropy, we'd. probably score very highly if not number. one. >> we're talking about? >> Art philanthropy, uh hospital philanthropy, literary.

philanthropy for the art, right? So, in. other words, look, my So, my family, uh. we moved to Montreal from Lebanon. We. moved to Montreal for two reasons. Well, three reasons. Number one, Montreal's. also French, and Lebanon. uh France uh Lebanon used to be a French. protectorate, so you already spoke. French in Lebanon in in in addition to. Arabic. So, that was one. Number two, the immigration policy for war refugees. was maybe easier to navigate.

Canada was a more welcoming country than. say maybe you United States, but number. three is that my mother's sister had. already emigrated to Montreal with her. husband. And that husband became the director. general of the Jewish General Hospital. of Montreal, which is the biggest. hospital in Montreal. It's the Jewish. General, right? So, in other words, it is undoubtedly true,

probably. I don't have the empirical. evidence that probably the the Jewish. lobby. does its job really well and. effectively, but let's look at all of. the other things that they also do well. They contribute and So, for example, >> wonderful, but but that doesn't take. away from the influence that it has on. our policies. >> Yes. On our political candidates, on. like like for instance, one of the. reasons why Mondaire won in New York. City is because when they had the. mayoral debate, he was the only one that.

said he's not immediately going to go to. Israel. >> Right. And a lot of people were shocked. by that. They're like, why is everyone. saying they're going to go to Israel. when they win as the mayor in New York. City? It didn't make any sense and. people kind of just. confused by it. New York City's a mess. It's got a lot of problems. And this one. guy said, I think I can serve Jewish. Americans better by staying here in New. York City and I'm not going to go to. Israel. And everybody was like, thank. God someone said that. Right.

>> Because all the other candidates, it. seemed, at least to me as an outsider, were being heavily influenced by the. Jewish lobby. Maybe actually I don't I really don't. know the answer. >> do that? They're not saying I'm going to. go to England. They're not saying I'm. going to go to France. They're saying. I'm going to go to Israel. Right. I. mean, is it is it surprising that if you. have a group of people who have been. historically persecuted the way that. they have. And by the way, I I don't think that. >> running for mayor of New York City and.

they're saying I'm going to go to. Israel. I think it's totally wrong if if. there is a. conflict between the best interests of. the country that you reside in versus. Israel, you should always side with the. former. Un- understandably. I I agree. But I think that the reason why they. were saying that is they were being. influenced by the people that were. funding their campaigns. And I think the. uh the people in New York City. recognized that.

and said, hey, there's something where. they're not looking out for our best. interests. They're looking out for the. best interests of the people that are. funding them and those people have the. best interests of Israel in mind above. the interests of the United States. >> So And this is the same sentiment that. people have for why we invaded Iran and. why we funded Israel while they're. bombing Gaza. The same the same sort of. thing. And I would I would say from. October 7th on, you know, first of all, immediately. afterwards, the tremendous support for. Israel. I mean, it was a horrific.

attack, but the response, I think, has. created a lot of anti-Israel sentiment. in the United States. >> Yes. Do you Do you think that other lobby. groups that. very feverishly lobby for their. self-interest. would receive the same animus as the. pro-Israel lobby? So, for example. >> connected to a specific country. That's. the problem. This one group is connected. to a specific country. >> Okay, so let's do specific country.

>> Okay. Uh I'm I've been a professor for. 32 years, so I care about the ideas, the. bad ideas that flourish within. universities ecosystem, hence parasitic. minds with zero empathy. >> Right. If you do a. uh histogram of all of the nations that. contribute. to try to alter the types of ideas that. are promulgated on American campuses, which lobby or which country scores.

way higher than anything you could ever. hope for from Israel? >> That's a very good question, and I think. that's a different thing, cuz I think. what you're talking about is influencing. American education systems, and that you. could say China and Russia. They both. >> the Qataris? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, they. Well, they they all There's a lot of. people that from other countries. specifically influencing our education. system. And doing it within their best. interest by donating a lot of money, by.

funding programs, by having a lot of. foreign exchange students. So, that's. There's a big impact by other countries, for sure. But, they're not representing. another country. Like, no one's saying, "I want to win New York City and then go. to Beijing." Right. Anybody who does that in the way you. just said it, in my view, is is. violating its most the most. >> thing is they all did it. They all did. it, except Mondani. Cuomo did it. They all did it.

Right. >> They all said I'm going to Israel. So, I can't speak to that. I really. can't. But, do you understand why people. >> uh So, here's why. >> post October 7th, this negative. sentiment because of the destruction of. Gaza. Uh be. any lobby group. vociferously fights for its. self-interest. The tobacco lobby spends. all their time convincing doctors This. I'm talking 40 years ago that there is.

no evidence that smoking is bad for your. health. >> Pharmaceutical drug companies with. OxyContin and Oxycodone. >> Exactly. So, the reflex for a group that. has its own interest to promulgate are. going to do exactly that. That's why. they're called a lobby group. Right. So, if from this side of our mouth, we care. about the fact that there is a Zionist. lobby, it cannot be that from this side. of our mouth, we don't care about the.

fact that there are Islamic-based. funding to all of the American. universities that have parasitized. uh your daughters and mine in ways that. should be problematic because it's your. daughters. >> explain how they've done that. So, any. Near East Studies program, also known as. political science program, also known as. government program. So, at Harvard, you. call it the the the Department of. Government. And this right? Mhm.

>> So, all those schools will then produce. kids. All those kids are called John. Smith and Jethro Roscoe, but yet they. are on the front line after October 7th. wearing their keffiyeh stopping Jews. from going to class. And that happened. at UCLA and at Wellesley and at. everywhere. And at Concordia University, my my university. What caused that to. happen? It's because there is one. particular viewpoint that becomes the.

norm on university campuses when it. comes to these geopolitical realities. So, by the same way that I can be. frustrated if Mario Cuomo is concerned. about going to Israel when he is running. for mayor of New York, I should also be. very concerned that all of these Islamic. countries are having a free fall. free-for-all with all of our children's. brains. But yet, I don't see many people. concerned about that. It is that double.

standard that then makes you go hmm. Why. are you who lives in Iowa so concerned. about it? Maybe there are really valid. reasons for you to be concerned about. the pro-Israel lobby. And let's have a. conversation about that. But then, are. you honest enough to have a similar. discussion about other ways by which we. tilt our policies and our children's. brains? Probably not. >> Could you explain how this is done? Like, what do you think is happening in. the universities where they're tilting.

people towards a a pro-Palestinian. perspective? >> Uh. well, I mean, several ways. One, I mean, if it's directly through funding, you. fund the $30 million. whatever, uh. you're probably not going to have. faculty members who are going to be. incredibly vociferous in their. you know, anti-Islamic rhetoric if you. have that I'll give you an example. When. I was potentially going to come, maybe. they don't want me to hear this, but so. be it. When I was one of the places that.

I was being recruited at was potentially. University of Austin, right? And I came. call I mean, they were going to make me. an offer. The University of Austin. doesn't have a tenure system. They have. a constitution. It's a different kind of. system. Of course, what allowed me to not be. canceled, I would have been canceled 30. years ago for all the things that I say. and all the things that I write is that. I was protected by tenure. And so I was. very concerned about whether the fact. that they don't have tenure, what. happens if tomorrow.

>> Right. >> Okay. And I remember having a. conversation. I won't mention his name. to but you can probably guess who it. could be where I said. what happens under your constitution if. tomorrow you get a $30 million donation. from Muhammad bin Talal and he says you. know that little uh. Jewish professor who's going on Joe. Rogan and talking about bad things about. Islam, that has to stop. His answer was. the gentleman that I was my interlocutor.

was, well, we're on the same team. I. fully support what you're saying. Well, you support what I'm saying until money. talks, right? I can pick you a number, a. donation number where you're no longer. support with equal alacrity my criticism. of Islam. Maybe it's a hundred million. Maybe it's two hundred million. But. there. >> Well, just given the people that I know. that are the founders of the University. of Austin, I don't know if that's. likely. You mean there is no reservation.

price where. >> seem like they would be willing to go. against the idea of Israel. I well. Maybe you maybe. >> to you though? >> I mean it does, but it wasn't it wasn't. sufficiently. uh reassuring. >> reassuring. >> Yeah. Oh, I can understand. I mean, if I. was. offered tenure or no tenure, tenure is. the way to go. It's the only way you can. have real. intellectual freedom. >> Well, and by the way, to to that point,

so when I now got this beautiful. position at University of Mississippi, I. don't have tenure there. I don't really. care that much, but they put a clause in. the contract that says that my rights to. say, speak, and write whatever I want. will be protected with with the same. staunch ness that the first amendment. offers me and that tenure would offer. me. So, even though I'm not officially. there a tenured professor at this stage. of my career, I don't care. But they. they they enshrined it. So, what So, to.

our earlier point, I think there is a. way whereby I could put a load of money. in front of you and say, "So, how much. do you now support freedom of speech for. Gaza?" And I'm saying, "Maybe you're. right that the University of Austin guys. would never buckle to that." But Harvard. government department did buckle. Columbia University under Edward Edward. Said. Do you know who that is? Edward. Said? Edward Said was a kind of very. pro-Palestinian guy who was a kind of a. big shot in their political science. department. All of his teachings at.

Columbia University were. rather skewed in terms of being. anti-Israel. And so, the students that. come out are going to be a product of. what we taught them. It's not surprising. that they're all wearing keffiyeh. And. you think that this is directly because. of funding and not because of what. they've seen the horrors of what's. happening in Gaza? Well, cuz. >> Cuz I think that's what's turned most. people that have no affiliation with any. university cuz it's not all university. students that are reacting the way. they're reacting. They're reacting.

because of what you could see when you. see Gaza. Right. I mean, it's. obliterated. You It's true. But we can go back to a time before. October 7th and I can point you I. the difficulties that I faced at. Concordia at not being able to walk. around on campus freely also held true. before October 7th. So, we know that we. could eliminate Okay. In that In that. case. >> Right? So, So, that goes to our earlier.

point. We can blame ISIS for the US, but. then I could take you to a time where. the US didn't exist, which is called. 1776. Who are you going to blame now? You can blame things in the Middle East. on Israel, but I could take you to 1948. when it's not that. So, the it's a very. facile reflex to always find that. culprit. The reality is that any lobby. group is by definition of the word lobby. is going to espouse positions that are.

in their self-interest. I understand. that. >> It doesn't surprise me that the. pro-Israel lobby does that, as the as do. the Qataris, as do the Romanians, as do. the Haitians. Everybody does it for. various dynamical reasons. Yes, the. Israelis are probably more in the ears. of the things. Is that because they're. demonic? No, because they have more. power. Is that weird? Well, let me ask. you this. Do you agree that anti-Israel. sentiment has ramped up since the. response to October 7th?

Absolutely. And you may not like what I'm about to. say. I think most of the anti-Israel. sentiments. ultimately, if you scratch enough the. onion and peel enough the stuff, is rooted in Jew hatred. Really? I do. Really? So, you don't think that it's a. direct response to people seeing what. happened in Gaza? You don't think that. has an impact on it? >> lived in the world before October 7th,

and the world that I lived in and the. Jew hatred that I faced, right? I don't. have Joe Rogan's platform size, but certainly by the standards of most. people have a huge platform. The massive, the orgiastic, the Himmler-level Jew hatred that I have. faced. certainly precedes by. countless years the October 7th. So, then how would we explain why I'm called. a parasite, a pedophile, a child killer,

a rat, a vermin? Why am I called those. things? I have nothing to do with the. Israeli war. >> is anecdotal, right? I mean, what we're. what we're talking about is the general. sentiment in the United States has. changed pretty radically since the. response of October 7th. I have. experienced it. I've experienced it with. people that I know. I've experienced it. online. People that never talked about. Israel, never had anything bad to say. about Jewish people, and now are just. furious when they see what's happening. in Gaza. And now what they see what's.

happening in southern Lebanon, where. their Christian villages are being. bombed. All right. Were those people. also mad at what happened to the 600,000. Syrians who were killed? Which which event is this? >> and the Syrian civil war, about 600,000 Syrians were killed. Massive. >> know if they knew about that, but I. think this is kind of a case of. whataboutism, right? And I just we could. go to that, and we could talk about. that, and maybe that should be. publicized more, but what I'm talking.

about is the people that I've. encountered in the United States that. really genuinely didn't have an opinion. about Israel at all have had a very. negative opinion about Israel because of. the response to October 7th and because. of what they've done to Gaza. So, let me address the what the what. aboutism. Okay. By the way, I'm loving. today's conversation has a different. timbre to it, but it's it's keeping us. sharp. I like it. So, thank you for keeping me on my toes.

Uh. Let's suppose that I had a rule in my. head that says. I only get incredibly irate and animated. if an MMA fighter. commits a crime. But when I see the exact same crime. committed by anybody other than an MMA. fighter, I don't have the reflex to be. upset. Would it be whataboutism for you. to say, "How come you got upset when the.

MMA fighter did this, but when the. non-MMA, that wouldn't be whataboutism. because what you would be saying is, "I. want cognitive consistency from you, Gad, that if you're upset that an MMA. fighter commits a crime, you'll be as. upset when a non-MMA fighter commits the. exact same crime.". >> Well, could you illuminate me. on this Syrian thing? Yeah, so when this. when the uh. but I. >> I'm only vaguely aware of what happened. So, uh there was a civil war that was. started in Syria I think in 2011.

Uh that. uh that where the various Islamist. groups were trying to overthrow. uh Bashar al-Assad, and as a result of. that dynamic innumerable people, Muslim. on Muslim, were completely ravaged and. to the tune of about 600,000. Okay. So, let's let's let's put that. here. [snorts] So, so let's not call. that whataboutism because you could. easily say "I am angry whenever But it.

is whataboutism because we were. specifically talking about Jew hatred. Jew hatred in this country being ramped. up post October 11 October 7th. I mean, it is whataboutism because we we could. address that. >> Yes. But this is one particular thing, one particular moment in history that. has caused this extreme reaction, this. anti-Israel sentiment. >> The guy in Iowa who has never heard of.

the Middle East, but got rightly upset. at what he saw in Gaza. Why wasn't that guy. if if he is a honest purveyor in his. moral calculus of any innocents being. killed, I'm asking you I pose that. question to you. When he sees the. thousands and thousands of Yemenis that. were killed, the children that were. eradicated, much more than the tune of. whatever happened in Gaza. Every single.

individual, let me go on record, every. >> you talking about the drone bombing in. Yemen? What are you talking about? >> many there are many, many different ways. by which Yemenis have died as a result. of the conflicts in Yemen. There are. huge number of people that were killed. in the fight between Sudan and the South. Sudanese. Mhm. I mean, really in the in. the many hundreds of thousands, right? So, if I am just an Iowa guy who my my. moral calculus operates according to the.

following rule. Whenever I see innocent. people. being killed, it it drives me crazy. I. am outraged. Therefore, if that's the. rule by which I navigate through the. world, I will look at the October 7th. victims and say, "Those Jews didn't. deserve this. I'm pissed." I will look. at the Gazans that were killed who were. innocent, and I'd say, "Those Gazans did. not deserve this." So far, so good? Yeah. You We agree? Okay. I will look at. the Syrians and say, "That is not.

right." I will look at the Ukrainians. that were being butchered endlessly by. Putin and say, "That's pissing me off.". And on and on. Right. But, if it would. appear that my calculus is abiding by. the no Jews, no news mechanism, then I. have a right to say, "How come you're. focused only on when it seems that the. mean Israelis are killing the. beautifully peaceful Palestinians, and.

your moral outrage never gets invoked. [snorts]. across all of the panoply of much. greater disasters around the world? Why. is that?" Well, I think initially, in. October 7th, people were very outraged. at the attack on the Israelis. They they. were horrified at what happened. The the. whole the videos that we saw were. terrible. Videos of people cheering in the streets. when they were bringing the Israeli. captives. But then the difference between the.

capability of the Palestinians in Gaza. versus the Israeli army, which is one of. the most ferocious and capable armies in. the world, and the devastation that they. did to Gaza, the city, just the city. alone where you see. apartment buildings, hospitals, everything just blown to smithereens. There's there's a complete difference in. power. The what you're talking about in Syria, I'm assuming this is a civil war between. similarly armed. >> armed.

people killing each other. >> Well, there's the government versus. militia, but true. >> Right, but similarly armed people. You're not seeing that with Gaza and. Israel. With Israel, you're seeing. United States funded Israeli military, which is insanely capable, destroying an. entire city. Fair enough. I I I see The images are. very tough. There's no question. But the. reality of the numbers is very tough, too, because we don't even know how many. people are dead. We could talk about the numbers if you.

want to say it again, but let me ask you. this. If October 7th hadn't happened, I I'm. not I'm not being flippant. I'm not. playing games. I'm really honestly. asking you. If October 7th had not. happened, how many of the innocent. Palestinians that. tragically perished would have perished? That's a good question. Probably it. would have never happened. There. probably would have been a bombing of. Gaza. You know, that we could get really dark. here because there's a lot of people.

that believe that this it was allowed to. happen so that they could have an excuse. to attack Gaza. But that goes to our. earlier point about how. >> gets it gets goofy, and I'm not the. person to comment on that cuz I don't. really know, but there was stand down. orders. We know that. We know that some. of at least some of the army was told to. stand down. >> Well, I actually had the former director. of the Mossad on my show. Mhm. And his. name is Yossi Cohen. And I was like, Yossi, what the F? How how does Right,

how did it happen? And the best of my. understanding, in terms of what I've. told, is that you know, happens and. someone falls asleep, metaphorically. speaking, right? And so it was a. gigantic. But anyways, we the if if you not you, but if someone is of the conspiratorial. mind. mindset, there's nothing that I could. share. But speaking literally to the. former Mossad the former director of. Mossad, he said it was a catastrophic.

you know, failure of where everybody is. kind of asleep. But my point is this. Right, but let me stop you there because. if I was the former head of Mossad, the. last thing I would tell you is that. well, we allowed it to happen because. we've been wanting to blow up Gaza for a. long time and take it over and turn into. a big resort. You would never say that, right? >> Right. Right. And we also know that on. record Netanyahu has said that they fund. Hamas so they can control the size of. the flame because they don't want a.

democratic democratically elected people. to take over and turn Palestine into a. state. So you don't you don't think. there's something Yeah. True? Well, uh. Israel left if if I'm getting my history. right, they left Gaza in 2005, right? Is. that is that the right number? Do I am I. getting that right? So from 2005. till 2023 or maybe 2007, so someone will. correct me in the comment section. For many, many years Israel left and.

there was no problem in the region, right? Is that true? I don't know. You would. know better than me. Well, there was no. problem. I mean, there. Then there was a catalyst, an event. happened. Now, we can debate whether. it was proportionate, whether it could. have been, you know, adjudicated. differently. We can discuss all that. And all that you can discuss it without. ever worrying about being called. anti-Semitic. It's totally within the. fair bounds of having those. conversations. >> Right.

But what is true is that if Israel. wanted to eradicate. Palestinians, it would take them a lot less time than. when you and I have been talking on the. show. By orders of magnitude. It would. take 15 seconds. But they didn't do. that, right? They don't do that. As a. matter of fact, John, >> Yes. But they kind of have in Gaza. Gaza. is done. There's almost nothing left of. it. So, the numbers that I'm hearing.

>> videos of it, right? You've seen what it. looks like when they fly overhead. We. could show some videos. >> Sure. So, okay, let me. >> recent videos, they show the drone. videos of flying over Gaza. It looks. like a nuclear bomb hit it. They just. They did it slowly. They did it over. years. Just consistent, constant. bombing. And there's almost nothing left. of it. Right. And there's also been this. crazy talk of putting resorts there, you. know, and Trump said Yeah, he was saying. that we're going to turn it into the. What did he say? Something of the. some you know, Like Like Monte Carlo or.

Monaco. >> crazy. >> Right. Uh again, it's totally fair to. discuss what constitutes proportional. thing and so on. But I take a broader view, which is. Israel exists, >> [snorts]. >> and you have two choices. You can keep. creating generations of your. people. whose whose entire daily animation of. terms of their objectives is to. eradicate that place, or you could.

recognize that every single millimeter. on Earth has at some point been owned by. someone else. Is that is that not true? I mean, is is is the definition of. history not the accounting ledgering of. who owned what when? Yeah. >> Now, in every other conflict that has. ever existed throughout all of human. history, there is a winner of that conflict and a. loser, and people move on. Okay? Just Just hear me out. Okay.

>> I lived in Lebanon. I grew up in. Lebanon. We had to leave under imminent. threat of execution. It's very. unfortunate. We lost everything. We. moved on. We made a life for ourselves. Our home was stolen by Palestinian. people. I never held any animus towards. Palestinians. I moved on with my life. One day, I was interesting enough to. have the privilege of appearing on Joe. Rogan's show. My daily animation is not.

to go and kill people for things that. were done to us. And very few people. have had things happen to them as what. happened to us, right? Jews were. exterminated in the Holocaust. It didn't. create an endless litany of Jewish. terrorists throughout the world trying. to get back. So, in every part of the. world, we are now in Texas. That land. was owned by someone else before the. United States came along. We are. sitting, quote, on stolen land. In. Canada, we are sitting on stolen land.

It's called history. Most people are. able to move on and say, "Hey, the dice. went this way or that way. Let's hold. hands and let's build a better future.". You can't do that if canonically. the Jewish state should not exist. Right? Doesn't Hamas say in their. charter, "Every Jew that is anywhere, we. will find him and get him." So, did that. make sense that they would be the. leaders of that region? Wouldn't it have.

been much better for them to train their. kids to becoming neuroscientists and. podcasters and classicists and. physicians? But that's not what they. chose to do repeatedly for nearly 80. years. The minute that that clicks and. they say, "You know what? You have this. part, we have this part. Let's shake. hand and let's be one family." The. problem will go away. So, I agree with. you. The images are very jarring.

Right? I'm I'm also a very empathetic. loving guy, but I also know the reality, which is I've never heard Jews saying, "Let's kill all Muslims." I always hear. the opposite. Jews are an existential. affront to Islam. Muhammad on his. deathbed said, "Promise me that you will rid Arabia of. Christians, but really the Jews." So,

how could you have a coexistence between. two people when one people wants to. eradicate the other? So, did Israel. overreact? I'll leave future historians. to decide that. What do you think? I think that. given what they were trying to achieve, they did the best that could possibly. be. So, as you know. >> they could possibly would be eliminate. the entire city? No. And turn it into. rubble? There's been about 70,000 dead. Is that the right number? >> We don't even know. I mean, that's the.

number that I've seen. >> Who's Who's to know how many people. >> of those numbers are coming from the. Hamas terrorist group. >> But if you just look at the destruction, the the the buildings that have been. leveled, the the sheer volume. >> Okay. of destruction. There were two. cities called Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Okay. >> They were fully nice. >> What about Israel? >> But it isn't what about Israel. We we. didn't have to do that, either. And we. could You could say that that was a. horrific thing cuz Japan was about to. surrender.

Well, And we were like, from the. American let's practice. Let's see how. these things work. >> Again, that's the least. >> Let's show you that we have nuclear. bombs. That's the least generous. interpretation of that historical event. >> accurate demonstration. I think. >> Cuz I've heard something else. I've. >> Well, what have you heard? I've heard. that they did the calculus of if we And. by the way, it could be a very cold cal-. callous calculus. But what I've heard is. that there is a very clear pro- con pro-. con thing where if we do this, this many.

people would die. If we go on in the war. and it takes that much more before they. surrender, they'll be this many dead. Drop those bombs. It's possible. Yep. It's possible. So, do you think that if Israel didn't kill. 70,000 people and completely destroyed. Gaza, that more than 70,000 people would. have died during the same time period? >> No, I'm not applying that same calculus. of Japan. What I'm saying is images of. destruction are very vivid to our brain, right? >> They should be. Don't you think? But.

that doesn't mean that that's the. information that I use to establish the. what is morally righteous. What else can. we use other than information? We can use what is the existential. calculus that animates each society. One. society says, "We'll even help you build. a better society. Just please don't. spend all your time screaming about. eradicating every last one of us." The.

other society says, "I don't think so. If we're ever strong enough to kill all. Unfortunately, we were only strong. enough to kill 1,200 of you. And boy, that was orgiastically pleasing. But if. tomorrow, God willing, hey, maybe the. Iranians have nuclear bombs. We can. eradicate all you assholes." My God, the. world would be a better So, this is. Hamas saying that, right? And the people. that live in Palestine that were killed, these 70,000 plus people, how many of. them do you think were Hamas?

Well, the numbers that I hear is that it. was one-to-one ratio, which apparently. is a pretty good ratio. I'll And where. are those numbers coming from? I mean, like you want me to give you the. reference? I don't know much. >> I mean, is it coming from Israel? Is it. coming from Hamas? Is it coming from. Palestine? >> So, there's So, the the the one I'm. going to use is from John Spencer. Do you know who that is? No. >> John Spencer is a war. urban war researcher. I think he's at um. What's the.

military. where where they train the military? West Point. He's a professor of urban. warfare. He's come on my show. Uh and based on whatever analyses that. he's done, he's not he's not Jewish, he's not uniquely pro-Zionist, is that. he's he's saying, and again. I cede whoever knows better about this. than I do. I I don't know all the. details. He said that the ratio of. civilian to to you know, fighters killed. in. the Gaza war is better than, you know,

most other comparable situations. >> So, Hamas had 35,000. >> So, Hamas had 35,000. militants in Gaza? >> If if that if the one-to-one number is. right and 70, that's what it would be. And so, all those buildings needed to be. destroyed because at least one out of. one was So, let me ask you this. Let's. suppose I think it's totally reasonable. that you'd be upset that all these.

people died innocently. Well, I think. most people that see it would be upset, right? >> Fair enough. What Give me the specific details of how. you would go about getting your hostages. back given the reality So, give me a way. >> did they get back? In terms of alive or dead? Yeah. I don't know the exact numbers, but is. it something in the order of like 30, 40. alive and all the other ones were dead? Does that sound like correct number? I don't know. Whatever it is, it could.

be 50, it could be 100, it could be 200. So, I am representative of Israel, I. need to get those people out. Let's. suppose that Hamas had said, "Here are. all the people that we have kidnapped. and we are returning them to you and. putting down our arms." Would Israel. have caused the destruction that they. would have caused? That they did cause? I don't know. Well, what do you think? Probably not. Right. If they did that So, so nothing happens.

in a vacuum, right? It's not There isn't. something Right, but does that just. because they wouldn't have done that, does it justify what they did? What does. it say here? Final release. Total returns, 168 hostages were. returned alive, including eight rescued. by the IDF. The bodies of 85 were. repatriated after they were killed. during their captivity. Um US deal broker that landed a. ceasefire of and a swap for nearly 2,000. Palestinian prisoners. So, they swapped.

some of them. Well, let me actually. speak about the swap issue. I discussed. this in Suicidal Empathy. Sinwar, who. was the architect of October 7th, do you. know his his background, his story? >> Sinwar was a. ardent militant whose entire life has. been animated with eradicating Jews, not. Israel, all Jews from the world. Because. there's a Hadith that says in Islam, "The world will not stop until every Jew. that is hiding behind the tree is found.

and and killed." And they they refer to. that Hadith from Islam, not radical. Islam, Islam. Right. He was taken in one of those sweeps of. Palestinian militants. to prison. He was diagnosed with a brain. tumor, a deadly terminal brain tumor. The Israelis, you know, the mean. Israelis who are killing everybody, because the Hippocratic Oath. in their view supersedes any other. calculus, the the the Israeli.

neurosurgeon doesn't say, "F this guy. He's killed, you know, tons of of my fellow. coreligionists. Screw him. Let him die.". They operate on him, and they save his. life, right? So, let me ask you this, Joe. If you and I, let's put ourselves in the. mind of, right? I was saved by the hands. of the Jewish Israeli neurosurgeon. Otherwise, I would have died. Then he was let go in one of those.

swaps. Would that have not bought you. sufficient existential empathy to say, "Probably, I shouldn't then spend the. rest of my life being the architect and. repay the largess of the Israeli. neurosurgeon by doing October 7th." Yet, it didn't buy him that empathy, right? So, he was swapped in an earlier deal? >> in an earlier deal. Just you could Jamie. could look it up. You could do Sinwar, S.

I N W A R. He was one of the guys who. You saw him in one of those rubbles, and. a drone comes in, and he's covered in. rubble, and then they take him out, right? Well, if you and I, if if I could. put myself in your mind, if if we had. been ardent haters of a group, and then. that group had shown us tremendous. compassion and generosity by literally. saving our lives, that might have shut. off my hatred to that group.

For example, Brigitte Gabriel, the. Lebanese Christian woman who grew up in. the Lebanese Civil War like I did, I had always been taught as a Lebanese. Christian that the Israelis are terrible. and evil and they're the problem for the. whole region. But then she escaped to. Israel, was welcomed in Israel, she. completely flipped because she saw that. there were nice human beings that. treated her well, and she and then her. brainwashing was no longer there. Well, if I've literally taken a brain tumor.

out of your brain, in that brain of. yours, could I have not bought a bit of. existential empathy for the Jews? It. didn't. What do you think of that? Well, I think that person was probably deeply. radicalized to whatever their ideology. was, and that wasn't enough. Like saving. them wasn't enough. It gave them It was. probably Allah giving them another. opportunity to kill more Jews. >> Exactly. So, don't you think that. >> just, you know, that's one person, and.

one person saved them. I don't think it. necessarily changes the relationship. between Israel and Palestine, particularly because Palestine was. denied statehood. It's not a It's not a. country of its own. It can't do things. that other countries can do. >> Do you know what Bill Clinton, who's not. a Republican, said regarding Palestinian. statehood? What? >> He said, I I'm paraphrasing him, I. killed myself, bent myself backwards to. give them almost everything that they.

wanted. This is sort of the Oslo Accord. And Yasser Arafat was not interested in. a two-state solution. Well, let me ask. you this. If you were the head of. Israel, how would you handle it? Uh you mean moving forward? >> Yeah. In my In my utopia, it would be to try. to catch the brainwashing that happens. straight out of the womb, where the type. of animus that is shared regarding the.

Jews is so outlandish outlandish that it. would make Hitler and Himmler squirm in. unease. If you can get rid of that brainwashing, you will learn to see the other as an. equal human being. Can I interject. there? >> Please. Do you think that the bombing of. Gaza and the destruction that's so. clearly visible to everyone. would actually. stop that? Do you think that.

the bombing of Gaza would maybe make. more people. radicalized? That would make more people. want to attack Israel. That would give. them. >> 100% You're right that. you are creating a new generation of. terrorists, but again, it's you're. choosing to decide where to place the. causal point. Gaza existed fully peacefully for 20. plus years without anybody dying. The.

day that they decided to do what they. did resulted in a retaliation, which we. can discuss whether it's good or not. enough or too much. That is true. At the. root of the problem is an open society. that allows for the expression of all. religions. When I was in Israel 2 months. ago, I was in. well, all over Israel. I gave a talk in. Tel Aviv and I gave a talk in Jerusalem.

I spoke more Arabic in Jerusalem than I. did English or Hebrew or anything else. >> To your point, I think Israel is only. 73%. Jewish. Exactly. Look it Look it Look. that up, please. Use Google if you want. >> maybe 80%, but you your number would. even prove my point even better. >> Yeah, I think I might be wrong, but it's. not 100%, that's for sure. Um and um. there are Arabic Muslim communities in. Israel that are tolerated versus having.

a Jewish community in Palestine. >> fully embraced. So I can show you the. valedictorians. Let's see. Jewish population is the largest in the. >> Well, 78. See, I said 80. [snorts]. >> 73. What? 73% of the population. >> So what's the 73? >> is Jewish, including Look, right there. All right. Okay. >> Israel Bureau of Statistics, so I was. right. 73% of the population. >> Okay. >> is Jewish. 503,000 people living in the. West Bank beyond Israel's self-defined.

borders. Recent updates of September. 2025, so total population at 10,148,000. with Jews and others at 7,758,000. Right. So let let's do a few analyses. Many, many valedictorians of. universities graduate, they're Muslim. Some of them are in hijab. That's happening in Israel. You go. >> to a medical school, the valedictorian. that's. chosen is a woman in hijab. Does that.

seem like it's animus? In the Knesset, in the in the parliament of Israel, there are tons of Muslims that serve, right? As I was walking around all over. Jerusalem, everybody that I was. interacting with was in Arabic. They. were fully. Israelis who were Muslim, right? I have. tons of pictures with all of them. Some. of them recognize me. There was no. animus. Why? Because they've. internalized the reality that I am part.

of a country that is made up of. It's a Jewish majority country, but it's. a place where everybody has equal. rights, right? There are people who. serve in the highest judiciary that are. Muslim. Is there an Islamic country. where the opposite could be said? >> don't think so. Um it's also interesting when you look. at the statistics of the polling. statistics of people that support the. war with Iran. uh in in Israel versus the United.

States. And it's way more people support. the war. And uh you know, obviously I live in. America and I'm immune to the effects of. being surrounded by people that hate me. and want to blow me up. Um I could only imagine what that's like. for the national psyche of living in a. place like Israel being surrounded by. Paradoxically, though, forgive me for. interrupting you, Israelis score as one of the hap- one of.

the highest on the happiness scales. So, in a sense, it goes against what. you're saying. And I think I've got a. explanation, you know, tell me what you. think of it. When I am spending my entire existence, to your point, possibly being eradicated. tomorrow, I don't have the luxury to. debate what constitutes male or female. It creates a laser focus about what's. important in my life. >> My kickboxing coach, my old kickboxing.

coach Shuki, he's from Israel. And I. went over his house once for dinner. And. it was crazy like they're dancing and. playing bongo drums. And I And I was, you know, obviously I'm American. I was. saying to him, I go, "Why I go Why are. you guys so happy?" I was like trying to. figure it out. I go, "Is this just. uniquely you?" He goes, "It's in Israel. It's everybody's happy because you know. you could die any day. So, just party, party, party. Have a good time." And so. you go there. >> his. mentality and I I never forgot that cuz.

I I remember thinking that like. And he went back to Israel. He's there. right now. >> Have you been to Israel? No. Okay. You know what I suggest you do? >> Doesn't seem like a good time to go. Seems like it's a little dangerous. >> in that sense, yes. But but go there and. live live out the vibe. Look, it's an. incredibly. gay tolerant place, right? Tel Aviv, short of San Francisco, New York, Montreal, it's one of the most. queer-friendly places. It's very. bohemian. It's you know, reggae music. playing. Israelis are In French you say.

bon vivant, good livers, right? >> Israel Israeli society doesn't. universally support the war, either. Exactly. But that speaks to the fact. that there is a multiplicity of. realities. It's an open society, right? There I mean, there are There are Muslim. guys who will go in front of the Knesset. and will say things that would never be. tolerated in other in any other society. So, is Israeli society perfect? No. But. is it the beast and the monster and the.

demon that you see as a caricature? I. mean, nothing could be further from the. truth. >> you think that perhaps the more. right-wing authoritarian aspect of the. Israeli government is a problem in how. Israel's perceived in the rest of the. world? And this over-response in Gaza, the way they're bombing southern. Lebanon, that this is feeding into this. Uh look, there's been there there have. been governments in Israel covering the.

whole gamut of political orientations. And while to your point, I think there. is greater animus towards Israel today. than maybe in the past, I I've always. known there to be Israeli animus in many. places. For example, at my own. university, uh well, which I'm will be. leaving shortly, Concordia, has been colloquially referred to as. Gaza University for 25 plus years. Benjamin Netanyahu in 2002 was not able.

to speak there. They shut him down and. they canceled him. And this is when he. was then a private citizen. Now, this is. in 2002. So, it's. >> Why did they say they were shutting him. down? Well, because it's the Zionist. entity and the. the same talking points, right? You just. change what is the culprit. So, now we. say it's the devastating images of Gaza, but 20 years ago it would have been an. other story. So, the reality. >> that university. I I don't necessarily. think that was universally.

thought of in terms of like if you went. to all the other different schools. No, you're absolutely right. But, now that I. think comes from two sources. The first. source was when I told you earlier that. the brainwashing that's going on. American campuses where where Jethro is. now also wearing the keffiyeh. But, also. the but the demographic realities of the. West in general including the United. States are such that we've let in. people from those societies at a much.

greater number than in the past, right? So, I mean. You know the Pew survey? Do you know. Pew, P E W, right? So, they're they're a. non-partisan is an. uh survey company that if anything tends. to lean more towards progressive. They. did a survey global survey of animus. towards Jews, not Israel, Jews. This was I think 2010. And they had a. whole bunch of Islamic countries that. were polled.

Now, let's suppose I told you that we. polled people in Indonesia or in Libya. or in Jordan and 10% expressed you know, very serious Jew hatred. That would be. an interesting number. You'd be like, "Wow, one out of 10 hates the Jews. That's a lot." Do you know what the. average numbers were? Just pick a. number. >> countries? Uh so, in many, but I'm. talking now mainly the Middle Eastern. countries. So, not not Indonesia or. Malaysia, which also were not loving the.

Jews, but were not nearly as hostile. towards the Jews. I'm talking Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, you know, those. kinds of countries. What was the average. number? And Jamie can pull it up. >> And when when the question was asked, how was it phrased? >> I don't remember the exact words. But it. was like, "Do you hate Jews?". >> Not "Do you hate Jews?" but do you do. you hold favorable or disfavorable it it. It's enough that there is animus, but. not I don't think the word hate was. used. >> And is it Israel or is it Jews?

>> Just Jews in general? Guess what the. percentage was. Like just give me a like. I would. 70%. It's 95% and up. Woah. Right so if we. sampled a thousand people from Syria. >> And it's hate? They hate Jews? What was the term? >> a I don't remember because it's 2010. Negative opinion, disfavorable, dislike, whatever the whatever it is. It's it's a. it's a measure of your either.

proclivity, affinity, or disdain for the. Jew. Whatever the wording is. If you get 95, 97, 98%. of. pulled people saying that they don't. like Jews and now you let into your. country, your host country, hundreds of. thousands if not millions of those. people. Do you think that Jew hatred is going to. go up or go down? So. in Quebec for example, as I may have.

mentioned previously on the show. Quebec had a very open policy towards. Islamic immigration and the reason that. in Quebec it was so is because the most. important sense of personhood in Quebec. is that you maintain your linguistic. identity. We are French. We don't want. to be subsumed by the mean English. language. Yes? Mhm. So therefore, since. many of the immigrants coming from. Islamic countries were also francophone,

in their infinite wisdom, the Quebec. government said, "Hey, you know, here's. a great idea. There was a 1997 civil war. between the Algerian government and. hardcore extremist Muslims. The latter. lost, so they were fleeing from getting. killed by the Algerian government. Why. don't you open the borders for them to. Quebec? The decapitations will happen only when. they say bonjour to you. So, given that. they will address you in French before. they behead you, don't worry about it.

Let them all in." I'm obviously being. facetious, but the point is that. hundreds of thousands of Islamic. immigrants came to Quebec. I started. seeing the changes. A lot more women in. hijab, a lot more dangerous to go to. campus, a lot more requirements for. accommodations, prayer rooms, public. prayer When you say dangerous, in what. way? Specifically to me? Dangerous going to. campus, in what way? Well, um somewhat. of a known entity who doesn't mince.

words, and so I started getting a lot of. death threats. The first set of death. threats I got were in 2017, where for that semester, I had to follow. a protocol to walk on campus with. security. They would lock the door so. that the students could leave, but not. come back in. So, I had to check in with. the security. That lasted for about a. semester, and I mean, literally, I would. lecture, and then I would be ushered.

out. My wife would be waiting for me, and I would sort of let out a deep. breath, like sigh, that thank God I. survived another week. Did you ever. experience like people trying to get at. you? So, the only So, all of those. threats were online. That necessitated. But then we had to file with Concordia a. Montreal police report, so on. In 2022, I had in-person threat. So, a a guy came. up to me. I was walking with my then so.

2022 so 4 years ago he would must have. been nine. I was walking with my. nine-year-old 10-year-old son. and this guy looks at me he goes, "Are. you Gad Saad?" I said, "Yes.". Then he kind of. composes himself to kind of deal with. the hatred he feels and he goes, "I'm. not going to do anything to you. out of respect for your son today.". And so then the detectives got the. footage of that. you know, because it was outside of the. building. >> you telling me about this.

>> And then and then by the way I couldn't. they didn't want to show me a lineup of. things of. possible things because it would be. racist to do so. So, the process of a. police lineup which is the most. fundamental mechanism of identifying a. perpetrator was viewed as racist because. the guy who levied the death threat to. me was black. I think he was maybe. Somali. He looked Somali. So, So, I took a two-year leave from. Concordia University and I'm now leaving. in large part because it became.

difficult for me if not impossible to be. a high-profile Jewish professor who. supports the right of Israel to exist. What do you think happens in. [clears throat] the future to Concordia. and just to Montreal in general with. this influx. of people? It's a slow death. It'll take. you have to have the imagination to. extrapolate into a distant future. So, if you today go to your friend who's got. that steakhouse on that street I I don't.

know if you want to mention it in. Montreal, right? Would you walk around. and think that it's all Islamic? Of. course not. But it's a drip drip drip. It changes, right? So, for example, until very recently the Quebec. government was fully tolerating the. public prayers Islamic public prayers. all over the place. Like outside. and now they passed a law banning it. Well, why did you need to wait till. then? Why didn't you listen to me when I. was standing on top of the mountain.

screaming into the void saying, "This is. what's going to transpire?". >> But do you understand that you have more. of a an understanding of these things, more knowledge about these things, and. to these people that are trying to get. elected and that are dealing with their. constituents, that this is a politically. dangerous thing to bring up? >> I get it, but then you're engaging in. suicidal empathy. >> Yeah. Well, it's also they're just they. have their own personal interests. >> I get it. But, you know, the the the. reason why I love I mean, and now I'm.

going to get threats for this. The. reason why I appreciate Trump is. precisely because he implements things. that most politicians wouldn't have the. testicular fortitude to do. But that's. what you want in a great leader, right? Most people come in, do their time, parasitized the system, and then leave. having accomplished nothing. Right. >> The reason why Donald Trump has had not. one, not two, but three assassination. attempts, that is a testament to the.

fact that he is a danger to the status. quo. Why? Because he does things, whether you agree with him or not, he's. bold, he's fearless, he doesn't give a. To your point, most politicians would. rather go la la la, I don't want to hear. it, until it's too late. The The playbook is very clear. The Depending on the number of Muslims. in a society, you can exactly predict. the level of conflict. And that statement that I just said. holds true notwithstanding the fact that.

most Muslims are perfectly lovely. Both. those statements are both veridical. So, when you are 0 to 2%, you're just a. quiet exotic minority. When you're 3 to. 5%, you become a lot more engaged. politically. When you become 6 to 10%. you start creating Sharia no-go zones. We don't want your dogs here. This is. not tolerated in our zone. Look at. Britain. Look at France. So, in the same.

way that I can predict the trajectory of. diabetes and no I'm not saying that. Muslims are I'm drawing an analogy. Okay? I am explaining a trajectory. So, if you wish to protect the that make the. United States so uniquely wonderful in. the full range of societies that have. ever existed, recognize that all. religions are not equally likely to be. congruent with the American experience.

If you do, you'll survive. If you won't, your future descendants will rue the day. you were born. All right. Should we end. on that? Love being with you. >> Love being with you, too. It was a great. conversation. >> Very lively. Thank you, sir. Uh Suicide of the Infidel. is available now. Did you read the. audiobook? I did. Yes. And I constantly. said that Joe Rogan would beat the. out of me if I didn't do it. >> I would not do that, but I would berate. you slightly.

But I'm happy. I'm happy that you did. that. Thank you. Always good to see you, brother. All right. Bye, everybody. >> [music].