Joe Rogan Experience #2485 - John Fogerty

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Put your stuff on the floor. >> It doesn't matter. You can keep it on. the table. >> It's fun. There's water there, too. Uh, in this. metal cup. And then there's coffee. >> Oh, thanks so much. Coffee here. He's. ready to [snorts]. >> I have some notes that I'll probably. never look at. But.

>> you got notes? >> Me? >> What What's on the notes? >> Uh, just stuff like what I went through. with CCR and all that, but. tell me something. Did you Did you read. up on me or anything or. >> I'm a huge fan. I don't have to read up. on you. Okay. I read up on you a little. bit just to catch up about how you got. out of the the Well, you did do military. service, but you got out by smoking a. lot of weed and not eating. I read that.

Is that true? >> No. >> Is that true? They lied. >> There was a story about you smoking a. lot of weed and uh getting emaciated so. you can get out of the army. >> Well, it's not quite in that sequence, but. those things did happen. [laughter]. Yeah, I had. I had determined to lose a lot of. weight, right? So, I was kind of really. skinny about 1967.

68. Uh I mean likeund I think it was 129. pounds. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Um, and then I was going to go uh. to the I think it was the procedio and I. had to meet with the army doctor, right? And my friends gave me a couple of. joints and I stuck them in. You know, I. used to smoke and it was cigarettes. I. stuck it in the cigarette and going.

across the Bay Bridge, I smoked them. That's so I had even thought about So, yeah, man. He he he went on a starvation. diet, a protest diet, and then smoked a. lot of weed. that way. But yeah. Okay. But it's it's. essentially some truth. >> Some truth to it. >> Uh you had a legendary career, my. friend. Legendary. >> Thank you. Still working on it. >> It's incredible, man. You You are like. one of the main voices of rock and roll.

in America. If you really think about. it, your songs, I mean, there you have. so many gigantic hits, you know, when uh. the UFC uh has a lot of walkout songs, you know, when fighters come out and. walk out and a lot of guys walk out to. your music. I don't even know if you're. aware of it, but Fortunate Sun is a big. one. >> Yeah. >> Bad Moon Rising, that's another big one. people walk out to. >> Great. Wow. >> It's pretty awesome. >> Wow. Yeah. I'm I'm not that aware of.

that. UFC stuff, but it, you know, everybody whatever floats your boat. >> Well, people just love your music. You. So, you went through many generations. Like, you got your first record. contract. How old were you? >> Um, I know I signed one when I was around. 19. Of course, it would have been. uninforcable. >> It's not legal at the time, right? You. had to be 21 the deal. >> I I believe so. >> Yeah. There's Well, you're also one of.

the first rock and roll artists that. wrote songs uh that became very popular. about how you're getting screwed over by. the record business. [laughter]. >> You know what I mean? Well, so Leonard. Skitter did it working for MCA. They did. that song, but you had Vans Can's Dance. >> It was actually Zance Can't Dance, >> but you had to change it, right? >> Yeah. The name of the person was Zance. Uh it's it sold about a half a million. copies as Zance, but the record company.

Warner Brothers in their way of settling. somewhat. um had me change it to Vance. >> Yeah. >> Cuz the guy's name was Zance that it was. screwing up. >> Um. that's right in the middle of that whole. thing was a mess. I got sued for. sounding like myself. >> What? >> Yeah. >> How'd that happen? >> I'll tell you. [laughter].

So, and I didn't find this out. And. there was eventually a trial. So, it's. not [clears throat]. Many people think that that's funny. He. got sued for sounding like you're so w. that's funny. Well, no. you're getting a. legal lawsuit that's probably going to. take away a lot of your. uh money and you're going to go through. three four years of anguish. Well, anyway, um. ended up in a trial. He was suing me for.

at the time was an enormous amount of. money, $144 million for his uh whatever. metal anguish or something. Um I. the the logistics, I guess you'd call. it. I had made a new song called The Old. Man Down the Road. It was on my album. It was my comeback on Center Field and I. had finally gotten away from Fantasy.

Records, which is where Credence was and. Solands who owned it. So, you know, when. you finally escape and get success over. somewhere else, the former people tend. to be jealous, I guess. And uh so he was. suing me. What had happened though, I. found out in the trial, the bass player. from Credence. uh was another one of those people, I. guess, that couldn't stand that I'd now. had success in a later life. um he went.

down to fantasy and saw Mr. Saul's aunts. and said, "John is ripping off Credence. You should sue him." The irony in in all. of that is that I had taught Stu every. single note that he ever played in. Credence. It was not his own cre. As we. talk, you'll you'll see. Um I was the. guy inventing the arrangements. And so. to take possession of Credence was.

pretty ironic and pretty over the top. Anyway, he talks Saul into suing me and. that Saul had unlimited funds and so it, you know, went to a trial. I pre. prevailed at trial and. got that over with. >> But they torture you during the process. because it takes years and it cost an. enormous amount of money to fight. yourself. >> Yeah. all that stuff. >> That is so crazy that they can sue you.

for sounding like you. >> Well, it's a blessing to the world, I. think, that I prevail. I mean, you know. what we're really talking about is when. you come into the consciousness of the. world, I guess, and you have a certain. style if you're lucky. And so, you start. creating whatever your art is. You're an. actor or you're a painter or in my case. a musician. and people start liking the. style. Well, how unfair would it be that.

at some point somebody takes ownership. of your and style and now says you have. to go back and invent some other style, be some other person. You know, it's. just that would be really difficult. Imagine Dylan or Springsteen or all the. other people that have their own style. having to, you know, reinvent and change. to something else. Well, it's just. insane to even ask an artist to do that. It's insane because look, so many. artists sound like art other artists.

anyway, and no one has a problem with. that as long as they're not ripping off. the notes and the lyrics. There's a lot. of people that sound like people, but. the idea that you could get sued for. sounding like you with new music and new. lyrics is that's one of the most insane. things I've ever heard of. I can't. believe that didn't get thrown out. immediately. >> Immediately, right? Um, well, that shows. the the I guess the ego and the. possessiveness that people want to have.

Um, you know, I had written a new song and. he didn't want me to. He wanted to own. the new stuff. He wanted to own me. basically. That was the idea. Well, you. can never do anything unless you do it. for me, you know. Um, so I was. but not just for myself, for everyone, for all artists. It was kind of a major. ruling and thank God it went that way. >> Well, thank God it also was public like. with that song and the lawsuit around.

the song have you having to change the. name of the song cuz back then at least. at the time like this was probably what. the 80s. >> Yep. >> Most people had no idea how evil the. music business can be unless they were. told they had no idea what they they. bought the albums. They loved the. musicians and they just liked the music. They didn't know what was going on. behind the scenes. They didn't know how. these people own your catalog. They own. the music. They own the publishing. They.

try to just get as much money out of you. as humanly possible. Own your name, own. your likeness. You know, most uh fans. had no idea. >> And that's probably the way it really. should be. When I was young, I just. cared about Elvis and his guitar player. You know, I didn't want to know all I. didn't even know there was stuff behind. it to know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. >> Right. I picked a good one there, didn't. I? Colonel was evil. That's just too.

bad. >> Another similar situation. Like there's. all a lot of these great artists get. like Prince. He got wrapped up to the. point where he had to change his name to. a symbol because he didn't own his name. anymore. Prince. >> Yeah. I remember going, "Well, if he. doesn't want to use it, you I'll take. it." [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah. It's just the the business itself. I mean, you have these creative artists. that make this music that everybody. loves and then you have these hyenas. that work behind the scenes that are the.

ones that are collecting the majority of. the money from it and they're not making. any music. And to the average fan like. myself, like that's abortant. That's. disgusting. Like you you see that it. just it just drives you nuts. Well, also. um you know the the create creative. people are special and I mean you know. look around there's way more of other. types of people than there are creative. people and to douse that you know to or.

own that which is what was going to. happen is just a an ownorous thing. Um. I'm. I used to be a lot more angry about all. this stuff. I'm a lot older. I can't say. wiser. It's more like um I came out on. the good side of it. I try not to worry. about it too much. But. >> it's great that you came out on the good. side of it, but it's also great for. people to know and it's really great for. young artists to be aware as they're.

coming up, especially as they're. beginning their journey that this could. happen to them. >> Yeah. And there's all kinds of, you. know, u bad people around just waiting. for you to slip up and sign something. that will give your rights away, that. sort of thing. Um, I get such a joy out of music, you know? I mean, I just I it started that way. when I was a little kid. I mean, didn't.

even know what I was doing. I was or. what that was. I was hearing this sound. and you know and I liked it and I just. kind of went with it. I didn't try to. analyze it too much. And of course later. with all the things you know the. different roads you you go through. trying to get to someplace. Um. happily I still get that same joy. I. mean, I I just I'm just so glad. You.

know, I a lot of this, of course, is. from the care of my wife, Julie. Uh if I. hadn't met her, I probably would be. dead. Simple as that. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Wow. Why do you think you'd be dead? >> Um I didn't see any way out, you know. Um. I was really abusing myself, alcohol. mostly. I really felt. bad inside. I mean, it it's when you get.

like that, uh, Joe, uh, you're not. really operating on the same plane in. the world that all the other people that. you see are, you know, you walk into a. market or something and look around and. probably most of the people are kind of. normal, you know, whatever we call that. But when you're when you're really. hurting inside for whatever reason, I. mean, in my case, something really. unjust had been done to me. Um, but you.

know, however you get there and then you. start abusing yourself with uh drugs, alcohol, whatever. Um, you just kind of. it's becomes a habit. You just stay. there, right? And so you're not really. enjoying the sunshine and the love. that's around you and all the rest of. it. You become kind of a um pathetic. person. Sad certainly. So that you know. that was the deal that when Julie met me.

I was that guy. Um there was sort of a. certainly an anger I mean but a a. bitterness too. almost like a. self-fulfilling. um. prophecy where you look for something to. go wrong and then it goes wrong and you. go, "See, I told you." You know, I mean, it's a terrible mental place to be and I. was there. >> Do you think this was a loop that you. got in because of the lawsuits?

>> Oh, yeah. >> It did that it really just got you that. hard. Well, there was there was more. than one lawsuit, but the betrayal by uh. the people in my band, you know, uh I. just told you about a very evil man, right? >> Yeah. >> And I'm the only guy from Credence who's. ever actually mentioned that he's an. evil person to the extent that. quite publicly my brother Tom right. during the same time was saying that.

Saul was his best friend. >> Oh Jesus. It was just really hard to uh. deal with. The other two guys in the. bands were in the band were kind of just. more cowardly about it. They just never. spoke up. Just kind of give me the. money. And you know, >> how the [ __ ] was your brother saying. that guy was your best friend while he. was suing you? >> Um he wanted he was signed ressigned. after the break of breakup of Credence.

he kind of shopped around and didn't. have uh much success finding a label and. so he went right about the time that. this trial was going to happen. Uh he resigned with Fantasy. I'm talking. about the first trial. >> Mhm. >> Which was the first trial? >> The first trial was about uh basically. the band had lost its life savings. all. of us in credence. Um, the record.

company. had gotten us into this offshore tax. plan. And I'm saying this with a smile. because nowadays it just sounds so, you. know, some guy comes walking up to you. and got a trench coat on on a corner in. New York City. Hey buddy, [clears throat] you want, you know, probably going to avoid that guy. But. the record company was in this tax thing. and for all we knew we were going to be.

paying 90% income tax, right? I mean, the tax. laws are pretty pretty stringent and. pretty high. Um, and so they offered us. or basically. kind of ushered us into this plan, a t. offshore tax plan, and it would allow us. to pay a lot less taxes, probably. somewhere between 10 and 20%, something.

like that. Uh, so it was a huge. financial savings for us. I can tell you that the name of this. particular thing was a bank in the. Bahamas called Castle Bank. And we had it checked out. I mean, the. the people on our side in the van had it. checked out by our people. Our own. accountant um. uh the bass players father was a an.

entertainment lawyer and had a big firm. They among other people represented the. Oakland Raiders. So we thought they were. pretty solid and they checked it all out. and said that it was okay. It was legit. So we did it. But time went on and it uh. seemed to be not legit to the point that. somewhere in the 70s. the bank disappeared and all our money.

in it disappeared. So we sued. Oh Jesus. >> Yep. >> So here it is. The bank was being used. by the CIA to funnel money for covert. military operations, >> including those at Andros Island, a. staging area for anti-Castro activities. So you they were stealing your money. >> How? >> I just found that. I don't know. I just. typed it in and went to the Wikipedia. and I was like, whoa, that's. interesting.

>> So insane. >> See, I didn't know any of that. >> You didn't know until now? Oh, I knew. that now or I suspect. >> Yeah. >> Did you know that up until now or did. you just find it out just now? >> Um, you could tell me a lot of things. right now and I'd say, "Oh, yeah. I just. assumed all that stuff was kind of. happening, but I didn't know it at the. time in the early '7s when we or late60s. when we got into this thing. It was. actually. >> Do you know how anti-American that is?

the CIA stole from Credence Clearwater. Revival. >> How [ __ ] crazy that is. That is so. wild. >> No, I didn't know that part. The. [laughter] um the funny thing the the. funny thing is um I had decided to get. out of that plan, right? and I'd gone. down to see my own people, my. accountant, my attorney uh in Oakland. and told him, I just want out of this.

thing. I don't like the idea that you. got to call, you know, whenever I want. some money, like an allowance, you got. to call up some bank account somewhere. over there and it takes, you know, some. time, some few days before I actually. receive my money. and it was starting to. just smell. It was starting to and this. now we're talking. >> 197576. Um.

and so I actually had the meeting and I. said I want to be out of this plan. I. don't want to. Oh, I said one of the. things I said to the meeting of. professionals, look, take a shoe box, put all the money I've ever earned into. the shoe box, and now hand me the shoe. boxes so I can see how much money have I. earned because I didn't know. It was. just going straight into this fund, right, into this Castle Bank. But they.

couldn't tell me. So, I leave. I get. down to the uh parking lot in the. basement of this tall building in. Oakland and I'm with my uh the guy that. runs my office and I say [ __ ] we're. going to have to have another meeting. because even though I told him I want to. get out of the plan, I didn't stand up. like on the table and get I'm ordering. you and you and you get me out of the. plan. I realized they could weasle. some more time until I actually pointed.

So the next week I showed up and did. that. I'm ordering you get me out. Okay. Out of the plan, right? Um. pretty quickly after that. uh a week or two, we hear that the bank has closed. There's a telegram that apparently was. sent on Valentine's Day.

and the bank president has died. He died in a sauna. >> Whoa. >> I've seen that movie. You know where. [laughter]. Abbott and Costello, they're in the the. mob comes in and they're in those uh. heat things that are up here and the guy. sticks a broom in the in the door so you. can't get out. You know, >> I mean, except that this was serious and. >> there will be no more withdrawals. >> until.

until this thing is understood, >> right? You don't a bank president dies, you don't close the Bank of America, right? You still can go get your money. >> And so, pretty quick after that, it all. just disappeared in a puff of smoke. So, >> they just stole the money. >> Gone. Yep. >> And it was the [ __ ] CIA. That is. crazy. That is so crazy. How much money was. involved with all the different people. that lost their money? Like how much. money was this bank holding? Do you. know?

>> Oh, well, there were other names that I. never saw in those days. Uh, a lot of. sort of mobby kind of sounding names. Uh. >> um I will tell you after the thing. closed and I we got the telegram that. the p I started I literally started. checking under my cars. looking for wires and what you know. something funny. I did that for about. three months. >> Whoa. >> I finally just Well, I was scared.

>> Yeah. I would be. >> because I was the guy who said I want to. get out of this thing and suddenly it. goes kaboom and the president dies. >> Right. >> Right. And I just figured that I was. some kind of whistleblower to them or. something and you know I'm in their way. Uh. >> Wow. >> I guarantee you're the reason why it. happened. >> I don't think No, I don't believe that's. true. >> Well, no. I mean, you you probably. caused the whole thing to close down. I. mean, it's not a coincidence that it. closed down right after you asked for. your money back.

>> Yeah. I I don't know. >> You're a big public name and a big. voice. You get out. you take your money. After that point in time, I really never. wanted to. >> talk too loudly about stuff anymore. Oh. my goodness. Um, so there eventually was. our lawsuit. Um, well, actually it was my lawsuit. I got. with a lawyer, a tall building I call. it, and proceeded to start.

proceedings against this fantasy, our own attorneys and experts, uh, the. people that designed this plan, all the. rest. Right. But I was the only one in. the band that did that. The the rest of. the guys kind of just. went along and weren't m making any. waves. But I, you know, I was pretty. adamant. Uh I'm telling you this because. at some point later. more than a year had passed maybe a.

maybe [clears throat] a year and a half. uh my PL my lawsuit had been rolling. along a while. and then the other guys asked to join my. lawsuit because the statute of. limitations had run out on them being. able to sue anyone because they they. literally tried to stay in the plan. I. was [laughter]. I was I was willing to take the penalty,

whatever it was, for being the dumbass. that let himself get into some financial. thing like this, right? I felt like I. used to say I felt like Joe Lewis. I. thought I was going to need an act of. Congress to forgive the debt. Uh these. experts in the meeting that I talked. about who were trying to dissuade me. from making a noise and trying to get. out of the plan told me eventually John. if you receive all the money at once you.

will pay more than 110%. in taxes. >> of what you have earned. In other words, you going to go in the hole. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. For receiving it all at once, right? >> That sounds insane. That's why I felt. like Joe Lewis. >> That's the most insane thing I've ever. heard. >> Well, they were trying to in trying to. intimidate me for sure. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> how much money were we talking about? How much money did they steal from you? >> When it finally was over, the headline. in the San Francisco Chronicle, I mean, you're going to laugh at this.

>> Rock band. victorious wins 8.1 million. That was our entire take for everybody. in the band. Each guy had a little bit. different amount, but you know those. numbers. I mean, I don't know. Dion once made a joke at. the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame about. Bruce and [laughter]. Dion says, "Well, I sold 40 million.". Meaning, you know, you you sue me. Well,

Bruce has that on him. [laughter]. It was It was pretty funny. Yeah. I. mean, 8 million was that was it. That. was our take from all the sales of. Credence time. >> So, was that the amount of money that. was in the bank that they stole from. you? >> That was what we got returned to us. >> So, you did get the money back. >> Mhm. >> Oh, okay. I figured they would just. vanish. >> Um,

the money didn't come back from Saul's. ants or capital or Castle Bank or any of. those people. What had happened was. Fantasy was let out of the lawsuit by. the local judge in the Bay Area. I don't. know why because they're the ones that. got us into the plan, but anyway, they. were let out of the whole thing. So, who. was left was this guy named Bert Caner. in Chicago who designed the plan and our. own our own accountant and lawyers. And.

so what most of them did was settle for. pennies on the dollar. You know, we said. that you owe us u a million dollars or. whatever. And they settled for like. $10,000. >> really, >> right? Rather than go to trial. But our. own accountants. legal team said, "Ah, we got these guys. They can never win this." So, I mean, ironically,

they wanted to go to trial and put the. poor accountant, you know, who was an. old guy, uh, throw a whole trial and. Credence got we we retained the money we. had lost in that plan, the 8 million I. just mentioned, uh, from the. law firm, uh, the insurance firm. It was. his insurance company's lawyers that. were representing him and they had to. pay. >> Nobody else had to pay.

>> Interesting. >> And the CIA or whoever you're talking. about got away with it. >> Of course they did. >> Yeah. >> They know how to do that. It's kind of. crazy, too, that it's only $8 million. when you think about how much money you. probably made the record companies. >> Yep. Well, there was a hundred million. records plus. So, >> Right. Do the math. How much was an. album back then? >> Four bucks. >> Yeah. So 400 million plus operating. expenses, costs, all that stuff. See, you know, you guys got a small.

percentage. That's how it works though. That's why. the business is so dirty. That's what's. so, you know, the idea is that they help. you and they bring you up. But the. reality is they sell art and if they. don't have artists, they have nothing. The artists are what fund their very. existence and they make the majority of. the money. It's It's pretty dark when. you really think about it. >> Yeah. And Joe, I gotta tell you, um I. love making music and I don't do it for. the money.

>> I mean, I know that sounds a little. naive, but just the happiness in my. heart from doing this is. from the music, you know, from the joy. I believe you because. >> the only thing is when you I mean I'll. say I'm not like well maybe I'm an idiot. but probably not about this. When you. find out that there was money but. somebody else got it then that kind of. gets your attention. >> right. >> you know but um the for me at least it. was it wasn't even about being famous.

[laughter] literally if you could. believe that. It was the joy of of. understanding, you know, what the the. music from other people that you loved. And as you grew up from a, you know, that little first inspiration, you began. to kind of understand what it was you. liked about what they did. And at some. point then started to try and do it. yourself. But that was a that was a long. long time after the initial joy of just.

enjoying what they did. >> Yeah. It's it's kind of sad that money. always does kind of distort things. But. if you were only interested in money and. only interested in fame or if that was. your primary concern, there's no way the. music would be that good. It's like that. that has to come from a real place. It's. a real place of creativity and. enjoyment. 100%. Yeah, >> 100%. You know, >> well, [clears throat] for me it did. I.

just it it and also the prospect of. creating something new tomorrow, you. know, and and the what's the word? You. you get certain feelings. Well, we all. do, but um I've learned to. how can I say it? Sort of it's like. being in a big swimming pool or. something, you know? That's all. It just. surrounds you. Let letting yourself. enjoy that feeling and then try to.

figure out a way to put that into the. music, you know, express it in. >> Yeah. Well, you did it, man. It's just. it's it's a long story with all these. different artists that have had to deal. with all these horrific managers. And I. was reading this article about um Jimmyi. Hendrick's manager. Uh so one of his. bodyguards uh wrote a book where he's. blaming Hendrick's manager for his death. and he was essentially saying that Hrix. was murdered and Hrix was about to leave.

his manager and that's why he killed. him. And I don't know if you know the. story about Hrix, but his girlfriend. fell from a roof or jumped off a roof. shortly after Hendrickx died. And. apparently they were trying to get rid. of her as well because they knew that. she knew the whole deal behind it. Was. this the one with kind of a funny. foreign name? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They. >> I read a couple of Jimmy biographies, but you know Yeah. Um. >> so many of these guys had mobbed up.

managers. >> Yeah. I do know that there was some. manager of his that I mean Jimmy owned. his masters. That was remarkable. That's. why that's why his family has the. masters, his estate, you know. They're. the ones that decide because every so. often a new Jimmy album would come out, that sort of thing. >> Um, I didn't know any of this way back. then. I just wondered, you know, who was. driving the bus. So, I mean, that part. was was pretty good. Uh, he had to talk.

to somebody at Repre Records, and some. of those people were Repre uh Warner. Brothers. In other words, about the time. I was at Warner Brothers, it must have. been a couple of them, you know, that. decided that way back in the 60s. Um, I. guess I was a little envious because I. sure didn't own my masters, that's for. sure. >> How many people owned their own masters. back then? >> Um, nobody. >> That's crazy. How do you think he got. that deal?

>> That I don't know. I don't know how it. how it came about that he was able to. have that much influence. I mean, that's. the part. I I did I did get the inference from the. at least one of the books I read about. Jimmy that um he they didn't try too. hard to save him. [laughter]. >> Jimmy was I guess was just really effed. up for a couple of weeks there and.

no one tried. You know, they were almost. I mean, I almost got the sense that. somebody took a bottle of wine and just. poured it in him, you know. >> Yeah, that's what I had heard. >> Yeah, >> that's that was the what the bodyguard. was inferring that they poured pills and. alcohol down his mouth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Terrible. Well, I I hope to never be in. such a state that I can't protest. something like that. >> Right. [laughter] Well, yeah. Yeah. It's dark because uh apparently he was.

ready to leave. if he wanted to leave. his manager. >> and obviously Jimmy was a gigantic star. >> and that guy saw all the money. >> Well, he still is. >> Still is to this day. >> Every single guitar survey that ever. comes out, you know, it change all the. other numbers after. >> two, >> right? >> Keep changing with fashion and all that, but it's always number one is Jimmyi. Hendris. >> Always. Yeah. Kind of extraordinary when. you think about it. The guy died at 27. years old, >> you know, and was already just from.

another planet. Like you listen to his. like you listen to Voodoo Child Slightly. Turn. >> You listen to that song, you're like, >> is this guy from Earth? Like this was so. different than any other guitar playing. that had ever taken place before him. He. was a complete revolutionary. Like just. a completely new creative artist, >> you know, and one of my favorite. musicians absolutely of all time. That's. why I named the podcast the Joe Rogan. Experience. >> I wondered about that. Well, there it.

is. >> That's it. Stole it from Jimmy. You. >> Yep. I should have named it the John Fogerty. Experience [laughter]. >> instead of Credence. >> Yeah. Well, I did create that name. Um, >> what was the crazy name that the record. company called your one of your first. bands? They. >> Well, it was the same people. >> Same people. >> Yeah. Same. I mean the same individual. musicians. Um in high school or junior.

high actually I started a band and. called it the Blue Velvets. Not all that. cre you know earth shaking but kind of a. cool vibe. Um. and we were really the Blue Velvets by. you know I mean this this was really a. trio but my brother was older. He was in. another orbit. [snorts] Uh, so we kind of went through high school. seeing each other every once in a while. It wasn't like we were all trumping.

around playing gig after gig. It was. more like, you know, every few months. there might be a sock hop or something. like that. Um, and then. after high school and Tom Tom would come. and sing. He was my older brother. He. would come and sing once in a while with. us. We made a couple of recordings. during that time with real record. companies, but it was always kind of. just haphazard. Um, and finally around the age of 19, I.

went over and knocked on Fantasy Records. door. They had done this special about. Bench Galdi and they were in the Bay. Area. So, I, you know, went over there. and introduced myself. Anyway, so, you. know, one thing led to another. Finally, we're recording. Uh, and at that time I think we made a. record with only three of us. Me and Tom. and Doug the drummer and I I overdubbed. a bass part and this is early or this.

was in 1964. Uh, when they finally pressed the. single, one side was called Little Girl. It's kind of a four chord doo watt song. The other side was sort of a English uh. or a British invasion. answer kind of thing. Mod music. It was. called Don't Tell Me No Lies. Anyway, we. excitedly go over to San Francisco to. their warehouse and open up the package.

and it says the gollywobs. And we look. at each other and go, "What the hell?". No, no, no. I think we had chosen our. name to be the Visions. It was just. something at the last minute because. we weren't really the Blue Bevels. anymore, but that was it. We thought it. was going to say Visions. Um, but the record company had decided. they wanted to get in on the British. invasion mod, whatever, and named us the.

Gollywogs. Sounds like Polywog. >> Yeah. He said, 'Well, a gollywag, you. see, is this doll that when the British. soldiers were in India, there would have. this little doll called a gollywag. And so that's all we knew about it. Um, [snorts]. as time went on, I mean, years and years. later, a long after I had been we. renamed the band or I'd renamed the band. Credence, found out that [ __ ] was a.

this was a very racial thing. This was. the British soldiers calling the people. >> Whoa. >> wags or gollywags. Yeah. >> That's a gollywag. >> Yeah. [ __ ] right? >> Wow. >> Same sort of. >> Yep. >> And they didn't know this either. Obviously, there was no Wikipedia back. then. >> I don't know. No, I don't know. I didn't. know that. >> That's crazy that they could just change. your the name of your band without you. having any knowledge of it at all. You. open up the record and it's right there.

>> Yep. And they kind of insisted, you. know, it's that same thing that, well, we're going to own the publishing to. your song. No, no, I should own it. Well, then we're not going to make any. records. Oh, okay. >> You're 19. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's how they get you. You. don't know any. >> Well, and you kind of want to make a. record. >> Yeah. You want to make a record. It's. right there. You You taste it. Oh my. god, I'm going to be signed to a record. label. I'm going to be a rock star. And then they come to you with a shady. contract. And that's their modus.

operendi. So what they do with everybody. >> and for. I know they call it business. Um. >> funny term. >> Yeah. Um most of those people. I mean it's like lottery to them. It's. like gambling. Um they don't have a clue. what creativity is. And at that age, the. young art I mean, I guess I'm looking at. you and saying, "If I only No, what's.

that like? If I didn't know now what I. didn't know then. Um, [snorts] you're a young artist. You. don't even know what you got. >> Right. >> Right. You know, you have feelings about. music and but you don't, you know, you're less than a rookie, right? >> You know, you maybe you were good in. junior high, but that doesn't mean. you're Willie Maize, >> right? You know, so that's sort of how. that works. And they sign you up before. any of that self-realization happens.

And then you're messed. >> Yeah. Again, that's what happened to. Prince. That's what happened to Skinner. That's what happened to most bands. I. mean, they're very clever in how they do. it. >> They sign a bunch of people that are. emerging and some of them are going to. hit. >> Yep. and they bankroll it and then they. make the majority of the money when. those people hit. >> Well, in our case, Credence was the only. thing that ever happened. Fantasy became.

a very wealthy. record company. Uh Saul origin eventually went into. making movies. So, he that money that I. had made for him at the record company, you know, turned into one flew over the. cuckoo's nest. Oh wow. >> Some other. uh Saul even had and in those times had. bought the movie rights for Lord of the. Rings. So.

you know his he his [clears throat]. ticket. got punched way up high. >> and we never got a dime a course of any. of that. >> It's crazy how bad people can get ahead. like that. >> Well that see that's Yeah. >> That's what's disturbing. It's a. different. That's why I had a little hesitation. when you were talking about that you. thought the music came from a or. creativity came from a joyful good. place. But boy, you can sure look in.

different parts of entertainment and or. business in general and see some really. bad people have made a lot of money. >> Well, it takes the good people to create. things though. the creative people make. the things and there's always just going. to be people taking advantage of people. being naive about business. >> I choose to believe. that at least it works for me. I choose. to believe that you've got to have a. good heart. You've got to.

try to use the golden rule basically. You know, don't do don't do something. bad to him that you wouldn't want to. have done to you. So the do unto others. as you would have them do to you. Yes. Um. I I believe in God and I believe God is. watching me all the time, you know, all. of us. So that that part helps me to. feel like there's a a reason, you know,

to try and be a good person. Um the reason being. you're in God's grace if you do those. things if you try to live a good life. honest and I guess we call it. transparent nowadays. >> Yeah. >> Um you know don't get me wrong I'm not. running around the world with a thumping. a Bible or something. I just think it's. [sighs]. common sense about.

how ultimately you want to exist in the. universe, right? >> Yeah. >> Um. so, you know, that that's how I operate. And so when I certainly now at my age, when I see other people really getting. away with stuff, I just it it isn't like. I gee that's not fair. I should get the. I don't see it that way now. I just look. at that poor sap who's being so evil and.

go, you know, he's going to get his. comeuppance someday. >> Well, it's a horrible existence because. nobody loves you when you're like that. If you're if you're doing that and. [ __ ] people over, all your. relationships are adversarial. It's a. bad way to exist. You're on a very bad. frequency the way you you exist with the. people in your circle. >> I think that's true. I believe that. >> there's a lot of people that choose that. life just for financial benefit. They. choose to just [ __ ] people over and be. in that bad frequency all the time. But.

that's not a good life. And I agree with. you. I think uh if you live your life. like God exists, you'll you'll have a. much better life. And the golden rule is. just it's provable. Like if you're a. nice person and you treat people well. and it spreads a lot of good energy. around you and positive. momentum with all these other people, it. it's the butterfly effect. It carries on. to other people that they encounter, too. They're inspired by how kind and.

friendly and generous you are. And it. it's good for everybody. It's good for. you. It's good for the people that. you're generous and friendly to. It's. good for the other people that they. encounter because they're inspired by. it. This is good for everyone. That's. how people should exist. >> Yeah. I I literally I believe everything. you have just said and literally have. sometimes asked God for a you know I I. never sat around asked for money or a.

hit record or I I always thought that's. kind of poor. That's bad [laughter] you. know. Yeah. I mean that's selfish or. greedy or something. But I would ask for. clarity or, you know, I would ask God to. help me figure something out. And. amazingly, there would be through. a relation, you know, somebody I was dealing with, there would be something. It was like. karma, good karma coming back. And I.

could. >> see the see the, you know, to me it was. a result of my prayer or my openness of. wanting to help get a situation. resolved. Um, so for me, I've to me there's evidence. that it all works that way. >> Did you always have a belief in God? >> Yeah, I think there was times um, yeah, be because I was just brought up. that way.

Um, again, I don't believe my I I was just. was just taught in a kind of nice and. simple way about God. It it wasn't beat. over my head or anything. I was raised. Catholic, so in some sense, you can't. avoid having it beat over your head, I. suppose. And and some of that I. resisted. Um, but I went through the. normal things. I did [clears throat] my. first communion, my first confession. I. did uh what do you call that when you're.

12 years old that confirmation. >> Um I chose the name for for St. Jerome. basically because there's a song by do. Bo Diddley called Bring It to Jerome. [laughter] and uh Jerome was his I think. Jerome Green was his Morocco player and. I really like the vibe of that. So I'm. going to be Jerome. That's my. confirmation name. Um, yeah, it was it was there in those ways. There was times I was boy, you've opened.

a can of worms here. because I was so invested in being a. Catholic, even though my parents tried. to have me go to parochial school, Catholic school. Um, I was in the first grade and then I want. to say they kicked me out and then I. tried she my mom had me start again in. ninth grade at St. Mary's High School. and they kicked me out again. Um,

but it wasn't my fault. Anyway, the the. one that happened is funny. I mean, it's. just the one that happened in the first. grade. Uh, I had to take a bus to get. there. I lived in El Certo and the it. was the school of the Meline in Berkeley. and I'm in the first grade. I'm six. years old. So you had to go to the bus. stop, get on a bus, get a transfer. So that then when the bus came to a. certain stop over in Albany, you then.

got on a train, you transferred, in other words, got on. the train and that went another mile or. so into Berkeley and at a certain stop. right behind the the school, the school. of the Meline Catholic school, you get. off the train and go on down into. school. Now, what happened? My mom was a my parents had split up. So, it was only my mom in the house and. she's leaving early because she's got a.

job as a teacher and she's so she's out. of the house before me. And so, it's up. to me to get myself together and get to. the bus stop on time. Many, many times I. was late. I missed it. So, I had to get. the next bus. So, I'm late. So I'm. rushing to school, but I get there after they've already. they would march every morning to John. Philips Souza and.

you know all that and go on into school. and I I get there now I'm late. The. schoolyard is empty. I literally have to. climb over the fence because they've. locked the fence at boom 8:00 or. whatever it was. and I have to scale the. fence, run the class without going to. the bathroom. This was my first grade. experience. Sat down in my chair. Within an hour, I really got to pee. And. Sister Damian would not answer me. I got.

I got to I got to And so she would one. day I peed in my seat. It happened again. It became a habit. Sister Damian John Fogerty has a puddle. under his chair. >> Oh, no. >> Right. >> That was so traumatizing to me. >> Yeah. But ask yourself, how is a. six-year-old,

getting on a bus all by himself, traveling three or four miles, then. getting out of the bus, going over to. where the train station thing is, getting on a train, going over there, and I mean, I certainly never let my. six-year-olds do anything like that. >> I know it is kind of crazy how kids were. just able to just leave the house and do. anything back then. I think about that. When I was a little kid, I used to just. leave my house.

>> Yep. >> Seven years old, just leave the house. >> You were home for dinner time. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's kind of. amazing. We all lived. >> Yeah. >> if you stop and think about it. But to. have to take a bus and then a train and. go to school when you're six years old, that's nuts. So, uh, I went to Catholic school, too, for first grade only. And uh that. screwed me off of religion for a long. time cuz I thought of God back when I. was a little kid before I went to. Catholic school as you know God is all.

knowing and God is love and God created. the universe and God is. >> God's looking out for you. He's just got. some rules you have to follow. Made. sense to me. And then when I went to. Catholic school there was a lady I don't. remember anybody's name from back then. but I remember her Sister Mary. Josephine. She was so mean. She was just. a mean lady. She did the whole thing. The whacking people with rulers, tell. you you're going to have to stay. overnight and you're going to have to. sleep on a nail in the closet. Like.

>> just evil. Like wanted you to cry. When. I would cry, she'd call me a crybaby. And I remember thinking after that, like, I don't want to have nothing to do. with religion ever again. Right when I. left first grade. >> Yep. >> I hated it. And I was like, whatever God. is, this is not God. Like these people. have nothing to do with God. this lady, there's no way this lady is the. messenger of God. This lady's mean. >> That took a whole lifetime. to figure out, to realize, well, this is. just a man-made thing.

>> You know, God's there. >> and some man-made thing over here, you. know, they became Mormons and some. man-made thing over there, they became. Muslims, you know, and it's just all. man-made. It isn't actually God. >> Right. >> Right. And so you and man is fallible. Of course, he's not infinite and he's. not infallible. >> And so all these things were that but. that took a lifetime for me. I I'm sure. I was in my 40s still working on that.

trying. >> Yeah. >> that God's okay, John. You don't have to. resist when somebody wants to make a. prayer or so. You know, it's. >> it it isn't God's fault that you peed at. your desk when you were in the first. grade. >> [laughter]. >> etc. >> It's the mean none. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I uh I have a similar perspective. I I think uh I think all religious. scriptures, they're trying to document a.

a real thing. Espe especially. Christianity, which is the one I've paid. the most attention to. I think they're. trying to document a real thing, but the. hand of man is clearly all over it. That's the problem. The problem with. anything that's written down and we know. that just in like the religious cannon, the books that were included in the. Bible, human beings had a decision on. what goes in and what doesn't go in. You. know, there was rabbis that kept the. book of Enoch out of the Old Testament. There's a lot of this weird stuff to it. that you go like, well, why do pe why do.

people have any say? Why is a human have. any say in what the word of God is? That. sounds crazy. And when you read the. scriptures, you're like, somebody wrote. that down and someone told that story. for who knows how many years before it. was ever written down. But I think the. origins of it, there's truth to it. It's. just you have to get through all these. many layers of confusion to try to. decipher what what God's original.

message was and like what how was it. received? Who got it? How did it how did. it even get relayed? like what was was. the original event that led to this oral. tradition that led to it being written. down? >> I'm smiling because this sounds exactly. like a young musician has come to see. this more [clears throat] learned person. and tell him about his experience. and the more learned person turns into.

the manager or the record company. [laughter] and he says I want to own. this. >> Right? And you know, they take all that. all that good intentions and faith and. somebody ends up. >> owning it and you end up paying a tithe, you know, into a plate and [laughter]. they make a lot of money. >> See, in organized religion, especially. when it gets to like these huge. megaurches and preachers, like that's. exactly what it is. >> It's someone taking advantage of this. good thing and profiting off of it.

immensely. >> Yeah. But the thing I think the point of. like if you live your life like God's. real, it'll be a better life. >> I agree with that. I But I think you. also know I think you can just. >> There's something there. >> It's it's sensible that you try to share. that you try not to be greedy. Yes. You. know, I don't mean you have to be a. fool. I just mean that. >> you don't have to be overtly always. taking way more than your share.

[laughter]. >> Yeah. Just be kind. be kind and be fair. Um, how old were you when you first. started playing music? >> You mean as an instrument? >> Messing around. Like, how did you get. into it? >> Right. Well, I was actually I was given. a snare drum. Uh, I think I was about. four years old. It was a really cheap. paper one. >> Was your family musicians? >> Uh, not really, but they were musical. Both of them, my mom and dad. Um, one of.

my one of my finest and favorite. memories is uh there was we lived in the. Bay Area of of the East Bay from San. Francisco. And my parents would go up to this place. in Northern California near Winters, California. That's up like toward. Sacramento. And there was this uh creek, this body of water called the Puda. Creek. Eventually they damned that up.

and made Lake Beressa. [snorts] Uh but anyway, back then it was. just a a running water and there was. some people could camp there. There was. at this one place they took me. um reputedly was owned by a man named. Cody. and he was a direct descendant of. Buffalo Bill Cody. I actually met him. one day when I was about four and he was. probably coming to collect the the.

payment for the cabin and the you know. little space. Anyway, um and I I. remember looking at him and wow. So I. was told that story and he was he would. have been about 75. He literally could. have been a son of Buffalo Bill. He. would have been born at that point. It. was probably 1949. the story I'm relating and he, you know, would have been born in 1875. I mean, it's mind-boggling to think that. Um,

but the the my favorite memory thing. other other than the fact that that. whole place inspired my song Green. River. That's all the little parts are. in Green River. Um, but one of the. things my parents had this old Ford, old. Green Ford, and they'd be driving along. at night up there is what I mean. I. guess they were more happy or something. there. And they I remember sitting. between them, you know, it was just a. big couch in the front seat and they.

were singing songs in the dark and they. were singing like By the Light of the. Silvery Moon or Baby Face uh and. harmonizing. One was taking the melody and the other. was harmonizing. The reason I know is. because I'd sat there and I'm probably. three, four, five years old right in. there. I said, "What are you guys. doing?" Because I knew the melody, but. but I hear two notes. What What are you. doing? And they explained they were.

harmonizing. And it was just the coolest. thing. And it was so such a happy time. I mean, I really I felt what's that. bonded to that, I guess, like that. I. really like this whatever it is. So that was the initial spark. >> Well, they began to notice that I I was. musical. So at some point I know I again. at my fourth birthday there somebody. gave me a or I had a little toy. harmonica. and my dad, you know those little.

plastic kind of things. My dad picked it. up and he played Oh Susanna in the. cowboy style. In other words, it's. probably a C harmonica. He played in C, not like blues players do bending notes. He played that thing you see in the. cowboy movies when they're sitting. around the campfire and. that sort of thing. I was just shocked. I'd never seen my dad do anything like. that. Wow. And then uh on top of that, my mom could play piano, what we now.

call stride piano. She would hit the and. then play a chord like a octave of bass. notes and then a chord above it. keep that going as like the drummer in. the thing and then play melody and high. notes up above. And it was, you know, she did she would. one of my favorite ones was um Harvest. Moon, Shine on Harvest Moon, which is a. great song and it just was magical to.

me. So that that kind of opened the door. to let me know that, oh why, we can do. this in our own house. Um, so the piano was around and then we. also, I don't know whose it was, but we. had an old Stella acoustic guitar. Stella is a name going back into the. 30s, 20s. And this thing was built like. a tank. Um, just it was hard to play.

The strings were like way high and all. that. Eventually, Brother Bob told me at. some point, "Yeah, we used to play. baseball with that guitar. we'd hit. ball. [laughter]. That's how sturdy it was. But that was. around so that I would every once in a. while mess with it. Um, but somewhere. literally in the seventh grade is where. I started to really try and learn a.

chord and that sort of thing. >> Is that when you thought I'm going to be. a musician? I think that moment was a little bit. earlier. It was again up at this place, Winters. Um, my dad had driven into the. town from our little cabin, our. campsite, and I was with him and he'd gone to this. general store and in the general store. had everything, had food and stuff, but. also had uh fishing tackle and, you.

know, various weird things. So, I'm. standing there sort of near the counter. and my dad's doing some kind of. business. I'm just looking and suddenly. I hear music and I'm What the heck is. that? Well, I didn't even know they had. a jukebox in this place, right? And. somebody had started the jukebox. So, that it's playing music that I really. like. It's rock and roll. And I'm, you. know, I'm about 10 years old. Man, that's good. And I don't know who it is.

It's just got a really bluesy sound, but. it's it's fast. It's rock and roll. I. run over and I finally determined it's. Elvis Presley. I could I never heard. this. I knew of Elvis, of course, on TV. He had done Heartbreak Hotel. I I had. seen the the Tommy Jimmy Dorsy show that. he'd been on three times. He was on. there, I think, five times. Anyway, um. and so, wow, Elvis did this. What is.

this? So it turned out it was the other. side of his second big million seller. which was I want you I need you I love. you. This was a song called My Baby Left. Me. And this was basically classic Sun. Records vibe even though he was now on. RCA. It was that thing they did on Sun. Records that just that kind of country. whale with guitar that was more country. than blues. and the guitar especially.

just I said what is that I'm watching. and this Scotty Moore who I didn't know. his name at the time but he's just. playing this. otherworldly stuff and that was I looked. at that and I I mean literally my head. made I don't know I said this to myself. I don't know what they're doing but. that's what I want to do. >> Wow. >> And I made up my mind right there in. that three minutes of that song. >> That's amazing. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Well, it was transformative. It still.

is. It's just a pretty unique slice of. American music. >> I don't think I'm aware of that song. I. I'm going to listen to it after the. podcast. >> You probably know his song, Elvis's. song, That's All Right, Mama. >> Sure. >> Right. Well, this is in that vein. It's. actually the same writer, >> uh, Arthur Credup. >> Arthur Big Boy Cut Up. So, your family. was musical, but you didn't know any. musicians. So, what did you think you.

were going to do? Like, how did you. think you were going to eventually. become a musician? Did you have a plan? [laughter]. Um, at some point, you know what? At some point, a little. earlier than that, but right around that. time, it was the era of DooWap, right? This is the way I mean a kid can you can. just go anywhere in your mind right.

and I suppose the Corvette automobile of. course had come out. So. in a very young mind but one of those. cool I guess we call them mashups I was. going to have a group but it was a all. singing. I was gonna have a group and it. was going to be called Johnny Corvette. and the Corvettes, [laughter]. right? And there was four. I'm Johnny.

and three other guys. And we're all in. sparkle jackets, you know, the the show. business, right? >> And we're black. All of us. >> That was your idea? That's what I saw. I was referring to. what I was seeing. to be Johnny Corvette in the Corvettes. That was one of the ingredients. >> How are you going to be black?

>> I don't know. I didn't have to worry. about that. [laughter]. I mean, the the funny thing is that's so. similar here is like when I was little, I wanted to be a baseball player, right? But some kids dream of being in the NBA. Mhm. >> But you got to be 9117, >> right? [laughter]. >> You know, I mean, so how's that going to. happen? I mean, you just said it in a. really innocent way, but a kid just I'll. eat spinach or something, you know.

>> You eat spinach and become black. [laughter]. >> and tall. >> Tall, >> you know, I don't know, but it worked. for me. I mean, literally when I, you. know, one of my dreams as a kid really. was I wanted I love baseball. Still do. I wanted the, you know, okay, what do I. got to do? And I'd start throwing a I. was throwing a ball against the side of. the house. I'd made a big like a target, you know, bullseye. And I I don't know. why I did it that way. And my mom caught. me. I was throwing a actual hard ball.

and it was bent the clapboard, you know, the wood. It was I was [clears throat]. tearing the house down. So, [laughter]. she got me a tennis ball and that was. okay. I was no good, you know. I. wouldn't. It was I was that dream was. never going to happen. >> Is that what inspired put me in coach? >> Of course. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> What a great anthem. >> Thank you. >> It's amazing. >> Thank you. Yeah. Well, >> I mean, how many baseball games have. played that song? My my god. I mean, at.

least, you know, I mean, there's a lot. of us semi- nerds, I guess, you know, wanted to play ball, wanted to be a. jock, and just really at some point, you. know, the ones that really have it pass. you by, >> right? >> Of course. >> And you just kind of But in your mind, everybody got their scorecard and, you. know, and they're following the game and. all that. And that that vicarious joy of. watching Otani or Aaron Judge or whoever. it is you love. Uh.

you get to have that in your heart. anyway. But I mean I'm the luckiest guy. in the universe. Okay. I didn't get to. play but I wrote a song and my song's. there all the time. It's just it's just. the coolest feeling. the song my that. song's in the Baseball Hall of Fame. >> That's amazing. >> It is amazing. It's ridiculous. [laughter]. >> But it's just like that [snorts]. happened to me, you know? It's like, God, I could cry over that.

>> But when they had sent a letter to me. and they were going to, you know, and. put the music in the hall, I just was. >> God, who do I tell? [laughter]. >> Geez. Yeah, it was so good. >> That's amazing. That's amazing. So, when. we when did you start writing your own. songs? I was eight years old. >> Wow. >> Do you remember your first song? >> Yes. Or at least the one I remember is I. call it the one I can remember. It was u morning. I was getting ready to.

go to school. I could walk to school was. like. two and a half blocks from my house, something like that. I lived on Ramona. You go past Pomona and then the next. street was. Ashberry. and the school was on Ashberry up about. two blocks, Harding School. Um, it was a. grammar school. Anyway, I'm getting. ready to go to school. Got my lunch. I.

about to turn off the radio and this. commercial comes on. I was listening to. R&B, right? The rhythm and blues channel. from Oakland. And the DJ suddenly says, "Do you have the wash day blues? Is this day going to be drudgery becau? Well, maybe you're using the wrong and. they went off talking about laundry. soap, right? I don't know if there was a. song involved in the commercial. I think. it was just a red because it was. probably live, you know, right there on.

old time radio. >> So, I went out the door when, you know, carrying my little sack with the lunch. in it. It's a wash day blues. Wow. >> I get kind of to the end of the street. I think that's Lynn. I got to go down, you know, three streets. I'm walking. along. Say, "Wow, what? [clears throat]. I got the white blue." I'm making that. noise. It's Muddy Waters. It's the riff. from um probably Hoochie Coochie Man,

you know, >> right? >> Uh and it all comes together. I'm just. walking down the street singing about. all the stuff that because it's blues, right? Right. And I'm hearing all these. guys on this, you know, channel I listen. to sing the blues and about blues. So I. got wash day blues. That's my that's my. song. [laughter]. You know, for years and years. I thought. I thought I was embarrassed about that. story. It's God, John, why couldn't you. have a great story about the sinking of. the Titanic or something? You watch day.

blues it because it just seems so. mundane. But now I kind of recognize because of. the the two elements I had put together. um it it's just kind of natural. It's. really the process of writing songs. >> That's amazing. And so when when you. wrote songs like I I I saw this uh video. clip where you talking about I think it. was Old Man Down the Road. Is that the. the the beginning riff?

>> You had it. >> Yeah. And you were talking about how. that riff just hit you. >> Yep. >> Is that. >> Well, yeah. Um, I had this place. Uh, it was. my studio. It was a convert basically. the garage of a house that I had bought. to be my my office and my place. So, it. was a size of a garage uh that I would. go there every day. So in the morning. I'd get in, I'd turn on my tape recorder.

and, you know, various pieces of. equipment and stuff. That was my process. certainly every weekday morning, sometimes on Saturday, Sunday, whatever, but certainly the five days a week. Um, and I'd walk in there and uh work on. music. I did this every day for I mean. years and years from. 74 until center field came out basically. which was 11 years later. Um.

and so one morning I walk in and I. haven't even turned on the the stuff. yet. I just for some reason I went right. to the guitar and I turned on the amp. and picked up the guitar and just kind. of noodling because I like to do that. A. lot of my songs have started this way. but suddenly just played. and it really had that sound to it and I. I got my attention because I knew that. it wasn't anything else and I also I.

mean this is like in a this is how quick. our brains can work, you It's taken me. way longer to tell it than the actual. thing. But so I've played the. and I realize it's not complete. It. needs an answer. And I'm also aware that. it's like being on a tight rope or. something over Niagara Falls. You know, you got to have the right answer and.

there's probably only one cuz all the. other ones are going to kill it and. you'll never remember this again because. that happens all the time, right? >> You know, it'd be lame. You you there, it's precarious. It's hanging in the air. and you got to come back with the thing. to make it complete and it has to be the. right thing. Yeah. [laughter] Yes. And so I.

Oh my god. Yeah. And I've you know I. play it over and over probably for five. minutes. I just tend to do that. That's. that's the joy of music. That's the joy. right there. That because I knew it. wasn't anything else. There was no. question in my mind. Well, is this. coming from, you know, the Beatles or. Howland Wolf or something? Right. >> Um, so immediately.

I I had kept this little song book. that's only about that big. >> uh with titles in it and I go flipping. through the the book and I think I see. something that's somewhere down the. road. Okay, that for some reason. appealed to me and I stuck with Okay, that's what it's called. This song is. going to be somewhere down the road and. that day I start. So now I turn on my. tape recorder and all that. I play some.

because I had to play real drums and um. that's what took me so long folks. [laughter] Anyway, um, so I make a. little thing that's just the riff and. then make a space of just the drums. playing and nothing else so I can kind. of listen to it and improvise what's. what's going on after this riff, what's. somewhere down the road. And of course, I start talking about uh. he get the thunder from the mountain, he.

bring the lightning from the sky, you. know, and all that. and these things are. going on and some you got to shoot. forward probably a few weeks. I realize. I'm starting to write a song but the. title somewhere down the road to me just. seems lame. It seems undefined, not cool. enough, not focused and probably not. going to remember it because it it. sounds like just what it is. You won't.

remember that. >> Right. >> Right. You know, if you say, "I've got a. polka dot Chevy sitting on top of a. bull moose or whatever, and that's your. title." You probably get a picture in. your head, you know, right? >> It's going to stick. So, I'm hunting. around. What are you doing here? What. are you talking about in this song? We're talking about this guy. He's He's. evil. He's the old man. He's the old man. down the road.

Oh, [sighs]. that's way better. So, it the song. became that. >> The the deal is with my little song. book. >> Probably two years later after the that. album had come out, I said, "You know. what? I want to I want to check on where. Somewhere Down the Road came." And I. went cover to cover. and it's not in there. There is no place. where I've written Somewhere Down the. Road. I just thought I saw it and that.

led me to a really cool song. >> Wow. >> The reason I'm telling you this is there. was a time I I had an office in Warner. Brothers and I would when I was staying. down in uh LA and I would go in there. all the time and write, had some. keyboards and stuff. And one day I. thought I needed a break. I took my book. and I went out and sat. It was Warner. Brothers parking lot. My car is went out.

to my car and sat down because I was. trying to give myself some. in, you know, get going, do something. And I thumb through the book and I saw. change in the weather and I said, "Man, I like that.". And I look up and it's kind of a cloudy, gloomy sky, you know, and Yeah. Changing. the Yeah. So, I ran back in my room and. I started I went off. I was inspired and.

I wrote a song called Changing the. Weather. Well, same deal. After that. album came out, I decided to check my It. ain't in there. Is nowhere in my book. where it says change in the weather. So. I nowadays tell people, you know, maybe. it's a shape shifter [laughter] and. there's stuff in there it can just kind. of go, John, listen to this. I got an. idea for you. >> Right. Well, the creative process is so.

mysterious. Yes. >> Cuz everybody that I talk to, whether. it's comedians or authors or musicians, they say the ideas almost don't feel. like they're theirs, like they're. receiving them from somewhere. >> for certain. >> That's how you feel? >> Yep. To me, it's it's like tuning in a. radio. >> Yeah. >> Right. And [laughter]. and a lot of it there's I guess it's the. way I was raised. You kind of have to be. worthy, >> right? >> You know, I mean, there's a a big dose.

of if you're all angry and treating. people mean and doing all that, I'm. closing the book. I'm not sending you. nothing. >> I think that, too. >> Yeah. >> I think that, too. You got to be. receptive and and honor. >> this process that we're going through. here. And you if you are in that frame. of mind and. >> some humility about this whole thing, >> maybe I'll send you something. >> The Muse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Have you ever heard of Steven.

Presfield? >> Huh? >> Steven Presfield. He's an author. He. wrote a great book called The War of. Art. And uh I give this book I have. boxes of this book out front and I give. it to comedians and artists all the time. because it's just a book about the. creative process about writing. And one. of the things that he talks about is the. muse about giving honor to the muse and. sitting there and and calling upon the. muse for these ideas that if you treat. it like it's a real thing, it will. provide you. If you show up every day.

and you put in the work, the muse will. give you these ideas. >> Yep. But they do feel like to everybody. that I talk to that's really creative, they feel like they're coming from. somewhere. >> Yeah. And Yeah. It it feels like it's. always been there, >> right? >> And it's just up to you to be able to. >> actually be able to see it or hear it. Right. >> Yeah. >> So I I do a lot of I get ideas in my. head. I'm just walking around and it'll. play. >> to say to me the same as if you're. listening to the radio.

>> It just gets in the head. You start. feeling it. But. um I I do believe you have to. you have to be doing it all the time. Like for me it was a process to actually. sit down, be ready, and a lot of times. nothing happens. You know, you got a. blank sheet of paper and it stays blank, >> right? [laughter]. >> You know, >> um. >> but if you do that enough times, at certain times you'll get a really.

good inspiration. Yeah, >> you'll be that's the way I You'll be. allowed to receive it. >> Yeah. >> Right. But it it really isn't you, >> right? >> That's the way I I think of it. What it. is is you have talent. You're supposed. to honor your talent. And so I'm going. to give you something if you're worthy. And now it's up to you to honor, you. know, use yourself. Don't just go, I got. it. We're done. No, you got to work it. now. Punish it. You know, make it. Yeah.

Yeah. I I I feel the exact same way. I. think I think there's truth to what. you're saying. Um I want to ask you. about Fortunate Son. How did you write. that? Like how did how did that come. about? That is like one of the greatest. rebellion songs of all time. >> Appreciate that. >> It's an amazing song. I love it. It's. It's also a fantastic workout song, by. the way. That song gets you jazzed up. If you're doing like a treadmill or. something like that, you're starting to.

get tired, crank that sucker up. >> Well, um, first of all, I think the first thing I. got to say about it is I was drafted, so. I was in the military and I I've got in. the Army reserves, but um was well and. was on active duty and all the rest. So. I well understood. the. position of. uh you might say the military mindset,

right? Even though I was a I was a young. person and this is right during the. Vietnam era. And I think I I I really. need to say that almost no one my age. wanted to be in the army and go to. Vietnam. I just that was something you. no I don't want to do that right. >> so I got my draft notice um. was got into the army reserves so I. understood that side of the coin and.

that side of fate you might say um the. deal I think the deal being okay I'm in. the military so now I got to play by the. rules I got to do everything. That's. This is what I am, right? >> Yeah. >> Um there's a little there's a little bit. of the whole idea of being American and. serving your country. What I'm I'm. trying not to trying not to say, "Oh.

yeah, now I'm gung-ho and I'm John Wayne. and I'm going to take take on Eroima or. something." You know, it was more like, "Yeah, but you got to do this right.". you know, you you can't just be a some. guy that's on awall all the time and. being a mess, you know, I wanted to do. it right. So, um I I went through all of. that and it's it's another story, but. eventually got my honorable discharge, which led to another song, but it's a.

different song. Um, and that was just. before just as the Credence career was. getting started. But anyhow, um, during the Vietnam. time, you began to, you know, there were. there was a lot of unrest, civil unrest. in America and around the world. Those. times were very volatile. But especially. in America, there was a lot of protests.

and discussion about the war itself. Remember, there was a draft. So, young. people kind of by nature were against. the war and against the draft because it. seemed to be sort of. not logical. How's that? Um, and in some instances you would see on. the news, you know, some senator who had. the political clout that he could keep. his teenage son from being drafted or.

get his teenage son into some cushy job. And you you kind of saw it a few times. These guys were. the fix was in, you know, right? >> And that just really didn't seem fair. >> [cough]. >> Not not just in my own case, but I I. more identified with the people that. were protesting the war. No one had ever. really explained why we were having that. war. To my mind, we still don't know,

>> right? >> You know, it just somebody's ego decided. they wanted to have a war and they had a. war. So most of these things that have. cropped up ever since have always ended. kind of miserably. Um and we never they. never were one. They just sort of. dissolved, >> right? >> Um so there was no marching band and all. that stuff to get to, you know, like. World War II ended with a decisive.

victory. Anyhow, that angst and anger within me about. that situation. uh was fueling my thoughts about. the current times. This was 1969. So I started showing the band all the. songs that the band. learned and played uh throughout the the. Credence career. They literally learned.

them as instrumentals. They didn't hear. the song. I didn't show them the song. So they, in other words, a bass player, I would show the bass player his part. Here's how your part goes. Here's how. the drums will be. Here's the rhythm. guitar part. And the band wouldn't. actually hear the whole song until I had. gone into the studio after that. recording process and added my vocal, sang the background vocal parts. >> Oh wow.

>> Uh played the conga drum or the shakers. or tambourine or piano, you know, all. the other stuff. Then they heard how the. song went. Um, so they learn their parts. as instrumentals. and this was ex exactly that way. I. showed them how the to play what was the. form of the song and that I didn't even. I don't think I had told them the name. of the song yet. I thought I was writing. a song called Favorite Son.

>> because um starting in 1952 when they. sent my second grade class I think home. to watch um to watch the inauguration I. believe of Eisenhower. Uh I think that's what it was. And all. you you know we had a tiny little TV. All I saw was big black limousines. It's. that was my entire impression of the. presidential thing. Right.

>> And politics. So after that, I kind of. would watch uh parts of the conventions. in the summer. uh you know there'd be. these gigantic. you know I didn't know what they were. then but these big rooms full of smoke. and every once in a while somebody. your honor the great state of Texas. would like to nominate her favorite son. Billy Saul Estus or whatever right and.

they all said that you know the state of. Vermont would like to nominate her. favorite son. And so that I had written. that one down in my book and I thought I. was going to write a kind of a political. song. So the band was getting pretty. solid in the in the backing track and. that told me, you know, I was driving a. career. I mean, I there wasn't someone. else telling me. I was the one deciding.

and pushing and I think pushing pretty. hard. I just I wanted a new single to be. ready and this seemed like it might be. it. So I at one point after the band had. been rehearsing the music for that song, Unfortunate Son, uh for a few weeks, it. was getting pretty good. All right, I. got to write the words. I got to get the. whole song together. I took a little. yellow tablet like that went in my. bedroom and sat on the bed.

and instead of what I thought it was. going to be the first thing I said some. you know this idea of the red, white and. blue and they're always super patriots. you know all this stuff and bluster and. all that. right and I how do I get that? How do I. get that? Well, they're waving the flag. and yeah, but what's going on now? They're pointing the cannon at you, right? Yeah, but it ain't me. And I realized,

oh, wow, that's something I can repeat. It ain't me. I ain't I that ain't no, you know, and literally that I mean it I. just sort of did it in front of you. almost the way it played out of me. sitting on that bed. literally walked in. and 20 minutes later walked out with the. whole song. >> Wow. >> Coming from the I didn't have anything. other than favorite son. The rest was. just the stuff that was boiling in my.

head at the time of course. Um basically. because of wellhealed people uh getting. out of the draft which kind of pissed me. off. Yeah. You know, I just, you know, there were a lot of guys now that I was. in the or had been in the military and I. knew there were a lot of other guys felt. just like me. Wasn't like they I didn't. grow up that I wanted to be a soldier. and go do that. It was just fate that. made that happen. So, the unfairness of. the situation.

made me want to talk about that. >> Well, you nailed it. It's such a great. song. So, did you have the music all. settled out when you went to the. musicians and explained to them how the. song was going to play out? Did you have. that before the lyrics? >> Yes. >> Almost always. >> So, what did you think the song was. going to be about when you when you just. brought them to music? >> Well, I as I said, I thought it was. going to be favorite son. >> So, you you kind of still had the theme.

in your head of how. >> it was something around that stuff. I. just didn't know what it would. And I. also, >> you know, how there's a t-shirt though, the older I get, the better I was, you. know. [laughter]. Um, I was pretty good then, you know. I. guess what I'm trying to say is I didn't. know what the song was going to be, but. I mean, now I would certainly have a. little trepidation. I'd go in a room. with a blank. I'm probably going to come. out of there with a some, you know, a.

smiley face that I doodled or something. no [snorts] words. Meaning somehow I was. counting on myself to do it. [snorts]. But. that's that's pretty precocious, right? >> Yeah. But that's also that divine. intervention of the muse like you put in. the work. >> and you called you called upon it for. inspiration and your mind started. lighting up. >> and then you started putting the pieces. together. >> Yeah. >> Oh, that's a wonderful Joe. That's.

that's an amazing. process when cuz that's what I do. I'm. not a prize fighter, you know. I'm not a. baseball pitcher, let's say, because. there would be an evolution in his work, right? you know, or something that you. can I'm I'm not those things, but I I am. a songwriter and that that it plays out. over some it isn't just once, you know, it plays out over some time and. that incidence where you suddenly get a.

hook into an idea and then the. the gods, the muse, they let you. continue forward with something that was. way better than you ever dreamed was. going to be it and suddenly it wow this. is really cool and you're excited and. you're happy and and it's coming to be. and you realize as I said that was by. the way by far the quickest I ever wrote.

a song and that's so quick so fast. that you I mean it's almost like instant. replay that was so fast that you you or. at least I did. I man this is really. good. I mean and you just like a minute. ago I was taking a breath hoping that. something would happen. >> Yeah. Well, that's what's amazing about. great songs sometimes. Like John. Melanchamp was telling me a story about.

uh uh I need a lover that won't drive me. crazy. Like that song he wrote in the. shower. >> Oh, >> like all day in one shower. >> In one shower. He was just taking a. shower and all of a sudden I need a. lover that won't drive me crazy. Right. >> And then next thing you know he's got. it. Yep. >> And it's an alltime classic. >> Yep. >> It's amazing. Well, that. the the songwriter and especially when. he's on his game, he he knows it's and.

and it it relates to your own. personality, the kind of whatever it is. you like, the stuff you have gravitated. towards. And so when one of those comes. along, it really makes you smile because. you're going, "Yeah, this is this sounds. like me. This is the stuff I like." and. you you go with it cuz I mean you know I. I am I I would say notoriously corny you. know at least I think I am you know the.

it it's like they make all these jokes. nowadays about dad bod and all those. kind of things. Yeah. I mean I literally. think that's me right [laughter]. >> and some of this I mean center field is. >> the corniest thing that was ever in. invented. I mean I love it. I. unashamedly want to be corny. It it's. that's who I am. I'm corny, right? But. it I mean in that song it just that. resonates with I'm h I'm.

>> I'm I'm glad I'm happy. I'm happy to be. happy. I want to be happy. Right. In. other words, I don't have to feel. because rock and roll is all about dark. colors and leather jackets and piercing. and you know tats and everything and a. scowl. You know, Elvis would. all that stuff. That's good. I mean, you. know, but. I like, you know, well, it seems to be. me. I can just be unashamedly.

happy and I'm glad, you know, like. Center Field is so optimistic and just. great. >> It's an awesome song. >> Yeah. >> I I don't think rock and roll is all. dark. I think there's aspects of rock. and roll that people like that are dark. because it's mysterious. These guys are. rock stars. But, >> you know, rock's everything. It's like. there's so many layers to it. There's so. many different types of personality and. you happy to be happy is also an awesome. part of rock. >> Yeah. >> Clearly. >> Yeah. Well, because actually a real.

people all as humans sort of have all. those different parts, right? >> Yeah. That's why we identify with it. I. think the the brooding dark rockstar is. like. >> it's a fantasy idea that people want to. they they want to believe that there's. that part of them you know there's this. just you know what I mean. >> I'm going to say abs it's absolutely and. um you know Marlon Brando on the. motorcycle in the is it the wild ones I.

guess. >> yeah I think so. >> um. >> you know that. he's just So bad. >> Yeah. >> And so. rock stars in well other I guess but. rockstar because it was right in that. era they invented or gravitated to in. other words one picture defines me. >> Yeah. >> This is my uniform. You know I sleep in this. >> Yeah. >> You know [laughter] I mean and so you. know I've got a big chain and a leather.

jacket. you know, now I mean it got more. and more violent or dark, you know, hoodoo voodoo, you know, and all that. Um, but and it's it's funny because it's. basically I'm all this all the time. >> Yeah. >> This this one picture does it. And I I. kind of my wife and I joke about it. because she'll kind of say something. like, "Well, you don't dress like a rock. star." And then of course I'll say, "Cuz. I'm not right." [laughter].

Um I I I always sort of I mean I have a. leather jacket somewhere, [laughter]. right? Or two even. Uh [snorts] and it. it how can I say it? To me it was it was. a uniform. To me it was a pose. And so. you know I tend to actually just put on. clothes you can buy in the store when I. get up in the morning. Got to take my. kids to school. You know I didn't put on. the whole like. just got off the stage at at uh I don't.

know name some place at the whiskey, right? You know, and now I'm bringing my. kids to school. Hey, Mrs. What? How you. doing? Flip my cigarette over into the. I guess I could be a sitcom or. something, but uh that wasn't me. I just. I kind of was normal dad to my And I'm. glad they saw me that way, tell you the. truth. >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, the the idea is. silly that everybody has to be one way.

It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. >> Yep. >> Well, clearly when you look at what you. produced, like you clearly are a rock. star and you did it by being yourself. Like. >> actually, I think you nailed it there. Um, here's a real truism. when you're making. something and it's and we talked about. this and it's resonating with you. It. just seems like in your wheelhouse it's. you it's that's probably going to be. really good. It's comfortable. Sounds. like this you or you relate you relate.

It's great. If you ever get yourself as. a songwriter, singer, whatever. Well, so. and so is going to really like that I. did this and you're off on some weird. thing trying to, you know, be a change. or different or something. That's not. going to work. Absolutely not going to. work because you're you think somebody. else sees it a certain way and you're. doing it for them and God knows whatever. that is, but it isn't you at all. you.

you probably are just out of your. element. Off the rails, you might say, >> and guys do get off the rails. >> Oh, I've done it myself. >> You know, oh yeah, especially being. preachy and that kind of thing. You. know, there's some songs that Oh, God. John, [laughter]. shut up. >> Where where does that come from? Does. that come from just you have a big. audience and you all these people look. up to you and you just start feeling. you're important? Um,

I think I think some of it I don't I. don't know all the answers. Who does? But, um, you're in a in a mood where. you're or a mode you're you're you want. to get some material together. You want. to make a record. You want to have some. stuff finished and maybe you're not so. inspired, right? So, okay. Well, I'm. going to How about if I talk about. whatever and you start trying it's. almost like a square peg in a round.

hole. Well, yeah, I got to do something. because there's there is. some credence to that. Just work. Just. start working. Just start moving, you. know. Don't just sit there. Do. something. Sorry. And keep grinding and. maybe eventually it'll get to where it's. natural. You know, the good part. >> Yeah. because just sitting and doing. nothing, which I've certainly been. accused of, is that's. nothing for no one, right? So, you start.

moving your feet and trying to get the. juices to flow and all that. Um, but. like I said, yeah, I wrote some songs, a. whole album really, uh, called Eye of. the Zombie. It was the followup to, uh, Center Field. And. I think well I I had some other some. ulterior not that I did it on purpose. but some other ingredients came into my. mix. I I'll get there in a minute. But.

anyway, the album as a whole is pretty. dark and pretty and. not doesn't ring true to me. I I think. it's kind of. misses the mark. It's off. That's a that album and that period of. my life is a really interesting. um. really interesting. phenomenon. I think that I'm not the. only one. It's just that I consider.

myself lucky. So, I worked for, you. know, I I had this enormous band, number. one in the world. um get screwed by the. record company, lose my life savings, band breaks up, bands in the in the. newspaper saying nasty things about me, etc. Uh I'm held kind of in a dungeon by. the record company and I got to either. give them my music or no one else,

[laughter] you know. >> [snorts]. >> Um, and I somehow managed to get through. all that and it's 15 years after. Credence breaking up basically finally. come out with an album called. Centerfield. There's happy joyful music. on it. It goes to number one. It's. acclaimed which is a wonderful thing and. it's a hit. Uh, I think what happened, this is the story.

I tell about it. It's as if you'd been. unjustly in prison, you know, convicted. of a crime, put in the penitentiary for. a long time, and one day they decide, oops, you're right. We made a mistake. You're free because you didn't commit. any crimes. We're going to let you free. And you're so happy you walk out the. door. That's center field coming out and. you come out into this big meadow where.

you know green grass and bluebirds and. you know it's a Disney cartoon. Right. >> Right. >> And then you turn around and you see. freaking San Quentin the prison that you. were in and now you're angry. You look. at that and you're just what the That's. what happened. I you know I when. centerfield came out. I should have and was a success. In. other words I was exonerated or. vindicated.

I should have immediately gone to. therapy right seen a shrink but that. kind of not my that I wasn't raised. anywhere near any of that kind of stuff. So I didn't know to do that. uh instead. all that stuff that I was repressing so. that I could do center field. it just came out like and I was instead. of being overjoyed I was miserable. bitter. and it happened all at once it didn't. like develop it was bam and for like two.

years it was like you could say Saul's. name. I would implode like the werewolf in uh. and uh werewolves of London or. something, you know, or the what's that. guy? Uh the Hulk. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Um. and so I made that album and that's all. that stuff. I mean, I just didn't have. the sense to see that it was it was. nothing like Center Field, right?

>> Not a good This guy's not happy. It was. not a good followup. >> Um. >> how did you bounce back? >> I met Julie. uh. you know right in the middle of that. tour in ' 86 for. um Eye of the Zombie or as we so I am a. zombie you know [laughter]. uh I met Julie and even though I didn't.

know I I thought I was in perpetual. binge mode uh basically okay I'm going. to go out and tour. Now I'm just going. to be a rock star on the road and be be. everything I never got to do for 20. years. Right now I'm like a I'm a little. kid musician again. That's what I. thought I was doing. Obviously that. comes from some anger to talk like that. >> Yeah.

>> And so I just thought I was going to. make my way through the Hollywood Hills, you might say. I think I actually said. that in those days. And. one day just suddenly met Julie. not expecting to meet the love of my. life as the person I feel that was that. I was destined to meet and the person. that would. through her good graces.

help me find myself and help me enjoy. and find the joy of life again. Um, and. it all it all changed. >> That's awesome. That's awesome. It's. great that you bounced out of that. because a lot of people don't. You know, when something bad happens to them, they. they just go into a spiral. They get. >> It's kind of amazing that you were. joyful at first, but then you started. getting resentful and thinking about it, which is totally understandable.

>> Well, you said a spiral, and that's just. what it felt like. You're just kind of. getting. >> it's getting worse and worse, not. better. alcohol as well, right? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> And boy, you don't you know they call it. takes you a long time to figure out it's. a depressant. >> Yeah. >> You are you're drinking. You think. you're drinking to forget stuff, but. you're getting more and more depressed, >> right? Yeah. >> And it's weakening your resolve, your. your your body. It's weakening your. vitality. So, you're tired and you're.

angry. >> That too. And your and your mindset. >> Yeah. you're just in a in a miserable. mood. >> And it's also that's also in the the. rock and roll stereotype, you know, the. the drinking, hard partying. Like one of. my favorite songs when I was a kid uh. was uh Bad Company Shooting Star. And. every kid that used to listen to that. thought they were Johnny. Like Johnny. was a school boy when he heard his first. Beatles song. It's a sad song. The guy. dies young, becomes a rockstar, and.

winds up dead. And everybody like was. romanticizing this song of this terrible. lifestyle that this guy lived. This guy. was super talented and had the gift. >> Well, it's based on, you know, some. reality there, of course. >> Sure. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Um, unfortunately, yeah, we we really. romanticize the idea of dying young, bring burn bright, die young. And it's. it's all cool until.

they're pointing at you and you're the. one that's going to die. >> I mean, at that moment in life, most. people, no, I don't want to die. >> I know. >> You know, up until then, there just sort. of a vague idea out there somewhere. >> Right. Right. Right. But weird that it's. a romantic vague idea, you know? Johnny. died one night, died in his bed, bottle. of whiskey, sleeping tablets by his. head. Like we just just like assumed. like this is how it goes, you know, like. this is the rock and roll romantic.

story. >> Well, you you hear those words when. you're young, of course, and right that. actually sounds kind of positive, you know, because rock and roll, man. Yeah. When you're older, you can hear. the same words and you say, "Yes, that's. real." But it's not a positive thing. anymore. It's just sort of a statement. of fact, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean, there's a I'm I'm sitting here. now, you know, talking about some parts. of me that are.

certainly embarrassed about and probably. ashamed of. I've I've let the shame part. go. it just happened, right? I mean, I. don't encourage anyone and I try to tell. them, "No, stay away from don't do what. I did." Um, and but I used to beat myself up a lot. with the shame part. And I think that. might be part of the healing, part of. the getting out the other end. Um. be because the more and more solid you.

get in the resolve of the way you're. going to really live your life and not. that. >> the kind of more the shame dissipates. and you you you're not so it's not. tenuous anymore like oh I might fall. back you know you're not so scared that. that could happen anymore. >> I think the shame is an important. element. Yeah. >> I think the shame of your your past and. the mistakes that you've made motivates. you to never make them again. Yes. >> As long as you don't think you're still. that person. That's the problem with.

some people. They'll do something in. high school and they carry that for the. rest of their life. Like that whatever. it is, whatever stupid mistakes they. made, whatever behavior they they think. that's them forever. And that's what's. crazy. >> Be able to grow up and and be I mean, you know, kids I got married the first. time at 20. I mean, there just should be. a law. Um, you know, you're you're just. too young. You don't you don't know what.

you're doing. You don't know what all. this really means, >> right? >> Um, certainly by the time I met Julie, >> you know, you know what though, that. experience made me shy away for a few. years there from the whole idea of a a. marriage commitment. I was committed, but the marriage part scared me. You. know, it just, oh my goodness. And then. one day I realized I was sort of, well, wait a minute, go back to square one.

What's the most joyful, happy thing you. can do? Well, I want to marry her, right? And have children and have a. white picket fence and a house and we go. to kindergarten and all those things, you know, we bake cookies at the PTA. I. want all that. >> Yeah. So, sure. >> It's crazy because that's not what. anybody thinks of when you think of a. rock and roll life. >> Uh. >> oh. >> Right. >> I suppose. See, I'm corny again. >> It's not corny. I think it's authentic.

>> I don't think there's anything wrong. with the way you think at all. I think. it's it's healthy. It's healthy. >> You know, I I just really even though my. my mom. I mean, she was a warrior, you know. Think of it. There were five boys. That. was my family. Uh my parents split up. when I it was kind of a long ongoing. thing, but somewhere around 8 years old. And so it was my mom's job to raise. these five boys. And I, you know, at.

some point being a teenager, a little. later, I said, "It's a wonder we're not. all in San Quinton." You know, I mean, somehow. she had enough of her. She gave enough. of her to inspire us, all of us really, to be good people. I mean, you know, we. all had our faults and foibless and fell. down and all that, but yet the ideal was. to try and reach up here and be a good. person and and that was because our.

family wasn't in in some sense to try. and have a normal family, you know, leave it to be and all that sort of. thing. >> Yeah. So that was a that was a big goal. to me, a big inspiration to to want. that. >> Well, it's a beautiful thing. There's. nothing wrong with that idea. >> Not at all. >> Not at all. It's just the idea that. there's something wrong with it. It's. that that's the fake rock and roll. vision. That's the vision of the dark.

artist. You know, [laughter]. >> I think um I don't know if I talked with. Julie about this. Sometimes we show up. at stuff and there'll be a lot of. characters. I'm talking about musical. things. A lot of characters roaming. around there, you know, and you know, I. kind of look like. um Ward Clever, Beaver's dad, you know, Mr. uh Mr. Boy Scout or something. walking around, you know, and she's. looking at me like, "Well, couldn't you.

have worn something a little more I. don't. >> little more rock and roll?". >> Yeah, maybe. And I I I'm just not. bothered. I mean it it it is kind of. funny though. Actually I worn some cool. clothes at some of the stuff that would. that would all be Julie's doing of. course. Um. yeah I mean it's. >> it's almost like you know could you. could you show up at a reunion of uh. rock guys you know in their 50s or.

something? Everybody pull out their. blotter you know their police blood. Oh. yeah, I got busted for me. And everybody. would have a. >> a wrap sheet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> I mean, it would be a badge of honor, but I suppose to me I'm I'm just really. glad that it wasn't like that. >> Well, it's just you being authentic. It's a powerful thing. It's it's great. too because the influence is to not the. influence is to create an image, you.

know, and a lot of people cultivated. that image, you know, course and they. get kind of captured by it. >> Yeah. >> And then you have to be that person. forever. You can't like switch. >> Letterman. to Pee-Wee Herman on his show. Just. think Pee-Wee, you're going to have to. dress like that for the rest of your. life. [laughter]. >> It's true, right? Right. >> Yeah. You become a character and then. that's what people love. They don't love. you. They love this fake thing that. you've presented.

>> It's the cowboy thing, the motorcycle, >> whatever. I I look I like all those too. actually. >> Yeah. >> I you know I love the. >> I I like keeping it as a a fantasy. Um, I watch some TV shows and my. favorites are the the the modern, you. know, like Yellowstone and all the other. ones after that. It's probably a lot of. a lot of what do you call that literary.

license, you know? >> Sure. >> For imagery, but I love the imagery. Yeah. >> I mean, I can sit there and watch that. river flowing back past those rocks and. the pine trees forever and some cows. going over the That's okay. >> Stoic cowboys living this rough life. >> I like all that. >> Of course, everybody does. It's very. romantic when you're looking at it from. the outside, especially. >> Yep. >> I mean, how many people moved to Montana. because of that show? >> They're hoping not so many. >> I bet a lot did, though. A lot did, and. I think a lot left.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think they realize how hard the. winters are and they're like, "All. right, whoa, >> this ain't this ain't my uh romantic. idea.". >> Yeah. And it's a long winter up there. >> Yeah. >> Oh, boy. >> Yeah. Music is uh it's one of the most. powerful things in American culture. because a great song like Fortunate Son. can inspire people to change their. lives. It can inspire people to make. decisions. It does it does things to. people. It gives you fuel. Like I was. saying, like if I listen to that song.

when I'm working out, it's like I took. an energy pill. Like all a sudden I have. more energy. >> Like that's real. It's a It's a powerful. thing that you've created. It really is, you know, and the fact that you did it. out of love and enjoyment speaks to why. the music is so it resonates so much. with people. Well, you know, especially. with that song, um, at that point in, uh, in in the career of my band, remember, I was writing all the songs.

Um, I'll talk about that after this, I. guess, in a minute. Um, but I wanted to. have a just a allout screaming rocker, which we didn't have yet. you know, the. career was about a year and a half old. And so, I mean, I commissioned myself to. I I I want to have that. that absolutely loud screaming song with. the guitars and all. And so, that was.

sort of the commission I gave myself to. create. >> as opposed to something like, "Have you. ever seen the ring?". >> Yeah. >> Or even Down on the Corner, which is a. different vibe, right? You know, I. wanted to because I like that. I like. when bands, you know, uh the Beatles. actually I want to hold your hand or she. was just 17. Saw her standing there, I. guess. Um. >> you know when or uh it's not really. fast, but it certainly had that vibe.

You know, the instrumental Rumble by. Link Ray. >> I See, I've missed you. Cool. >> Yeah. I don't know that song. >> Can you put that one up? Yeah, pull that. one up. [laughter]. >> We'll get We'll get flagged. We'll. remove it. >> Do you do that? You play little snippets. of music? >> We can play snippets, but the problem. is, >> you know, everything we just been. talking about. >> Yeah. >> Everything, including the guy. >> If there's a clip of him playing that, >> the the only problem is we'll we can't.

put it on the podcast itself or we'll. get flagged. But we can listen to it. right now and then we just cut that part. out. >> That was the musical scale right there. >> What's What is that? I took so much out. of that. But anyway, he was look then. Rumble the song. Who's the guy? Link. Ray. Oh god, that's so cool. And when. you saw him, black leather jacket, skinny as a rail, probably had a. probably a motorcycle there. I mean, it. was the entire thing in one little two.

and a half minute saw. >> Wow. Look at him there. God, does he. look. >> He's a little older there, but it's. Yeah, he's bad. >> Wow. [laughter] He looks cool as hell. Yeah. It's It's always fascinating to me. um where artists had like one incredible. song and then never made it like and. you'll find out about that song and you. go, "This is incredible. How did this. guy never make it? How am I Do you know.

who Johnny Thunder is? >> I've heard the name." Okay, play I'm. Alive for him. There's a song that my. friend Brian Simpson told me about. God, it must have been like a couple years. ago now. And uh he played it for us in. the Mothership, the comedy club, the. Green Room. He goes, "You're going to. love this song." And I went, "Who is. this?" We got to figure out who it was. It's a song from 1969 by this guy, Johnny Thunder. >> 69. >> 1969. And it's [ __ ] incredible. It's.

such a good song. And I'm like this if. if I didn't know any better, I'm like, "Oh, this guy must have been a huge. star." Like if I know, but if I heard. that and someone said, "This guy's a. huge star." Have you heard the song. about, "Oh my god, it sounds like a huge. star." Like, "This guy's fantastic.". Listen to this. Listen to this. How good. is that? >> It's great. >> How good is that? Song's phenomenal, right? >> Yeah. Did he ever like under a different. name or anything? How? >> Nope. >> Oh my goodness. >> Nope. Isn't. >> that crazy? Now, we started playing that.

song. The attitude's great. He's saying. a lot of great stuff. The drum's great. >> It's incredible. >> Yeah. >> The the voice is incredible. The sound's. incredible. >> We played that song on the podcast and a. couple years ago and now the song's in. commercials and all these different. things. >> Oh, is that true? >> Yeah. Yeah. But he's dead now. He's. dead. He He [laughter] died I think he. died in. 2019 or something like that. >> Died in 2024. >> 2024. Wow. >> Oh, wow. So, he probably died like right. after we discovered him.

Isn't that crazy? [laughter]. Isn't that crazy? I mean, you hear that, you're like, "How did that guy not be. one of the biggest artists in the. world?". >> Or at least have that song be a big. thing. >> That song wasn't even a big hit, right? >> It's crazy. It's it it just you realize. the the slippery nature of success, especially with art. Like sometimes guys. just catch lightning. They got that one.

>> Yep. >> And that's it. >> I be, you know, I think any artist. that's been around a while, >> he had another hit. >> Yeah. That was his biggest. >> doop. Oh, I know that song. >> Oh, Johnny Thunder featuring the. Bobettes. When did when did this come. out? >> 1963. >> Number four. >> Oh, that's the song. I I know that one. >> Wow. >> I didn't know who the uh the name Here. we go. Loop. >> Isn't that crazy? That song was Johnny. Thunder's only top 40 hit. That's.

incredible. >> How high did it say it got? >> Said number four. Number four on the US. pop charts. >> Wow. >> Number six US R&B charts. >> Wow. And the the album uh in Canada. reached number 14 two separate weeks. It's incredible because if you hear that. other song like that other song is that. should be gigantic. I'm alive should be. a huge hit. >> right. statement of you know it's like I'm a.

man or something. I've played that for. so many musicians. >> and they listen to it and they never. heard it before. >> and so many guys like, "OH, OH MY GOD.". YOU HEAR like you hear them like, "Oh, baby." It's just cracks. It's a perfect. song. >> It's an amazing song, >> but it's like the slippery nature of. art, you know? It's just like sometimes. >> Yeah. So, why why would something that. good. just, you know, there's something. >> I don't know. the the week it came out.

was 911 or something. [laughter]. >> Well, you know what my fear is? My fear. is that he got trapped up in the music. business side of it and they just. decided not to promote him or something, you know, he ran a foul with the music. company or something. I. >> It just doesn't make sense that a guy. who can make a song that good, if you. can make that song that good, you can. make a ton of songs. You just think so. >> Yeah. You just need the right people. with you. >> Yeah. He had the voice. Always do that. >> The voice, the sound, the the the soul.

to his his music, the way he sang that. part. I'm a man. >> Yeah. Hey. >> Oh my god. It's so good. It's so good. It just it's. a very difficult thing to capture and. even capturing it only once doesn't. ensure a long career of getting it. right. of finding that thing. >> Well,

yeah, we were talking about that a. little bit a while ago. You know, that. that first blush when you realize you. can do it because you've never done it. before. >> Yeah. you know, when you cross that. particular. threshold, that's an that's an amazing. transformation, I guess, in a in an. artist's uh the way he grows because. until you actually do it, it's all just. a dream, you know. Um I mean, I I had.

grown up writing songs. They, you know, they weren't great songs. I mean, I kind. of knew it. I I was watching all the. people I loved. I'm talking about from. being four or five years old all the way. through growing up and you're you know. things happen Elvis. uh Mottown and Beatles and all these. things happen and wow you really like. all that and meanwhile you're having the. dream of.

being in music somehow. Um, but you never really know if you're. going to be able to do that or not, >> right? >> I mean, this this sort of spreads out in. a lot of strange ways in entertainment. I mean, I I I kind of make it similar to. what what if you're a baseball player. and you dream of growing up and getting. to the major leagues, right? And.

somebody becomes Willie Mays, >> right? >> And a lot of people don't, you know, and. there's you just don't know. There's. that realization. I mean, for Willie, actually, he was it was slow. If you. read about him, him and D Roer were kind. of, you know, D Roer could see it. Willy's kind of Yeah. Um, so if you're lucky enough and you become. Willie Mays, I mean, God bless you, right? But there is that for most of us.

that moment that, well, sorry kid, you. know, you you just you're average, but. we don't need average. >> Right. >> Right. And that just happens a lot. >> Uh, in music, there was people like me. Well, when when the four people that. became Credence. sort of got together in uh 1967 after I. got off active duty. and we okay, we're going to go for.

broke. Yeah. Okay. We'll have a. democracy. Yeah. We'll vote on everything. Yeah. We'll all write songs and. everything. Right. Okay. One of the things that happened going. along those lines. I would show up at. the rehearsal, you know, because we at that point we. started, we said, "We got to do this all. the time if we're ever going to get any. good." So, every day during the week, we'd meet at noon or actually a little.

before that, maybe 11, and sit and talk. And then noon was rehearsal time. Um, and so I'd say, "Okay, anybody got any. songs?" and people started looking down. you. All right. Well, look, I got. something and we'd work on my song, right? I mean, we're just sort of. getting organized. I've just come off. active duty. I've been away from the. world, you might say. Uh, then next day,

same thing, you know, at home, I'd work. on some stuff. Anybody got any songs? Kind of every I mean, it was the. weirdest quiet. A week later, you know, same thing. And finally I just well look I've been. you know I began to feel this thing. inside that. I got to push. I mean I got I I think I. can do this. And so eventually I I got. the idea. The songs I'm working on aren't quite.

there. How about if we take an old song. and I'll just trick it up like. psychedelicize it because I I'll pick a. song I already know is good. It's got. good stuff in it. And that's what I did. with Suzie Q. It just kind of really. arranged it and had all this cool stuff. going on. It wasn't something I wrote. It kind of relieved me of the pressure. of having to do that. and was able to just hey just the that.

blank page turned into a different. rainbow full of all nobody can fault me. because it's not my song right did all. this great stuff this cool musical stuff. to it. Um, it got it. The whole point was to get. that tape on a local underground station. that was actually playing unpublished. tapes, you know, by certain bands. The.

most famous one you ever heard about was. there was a tape of Janice Joplain. singing Hesitation Blues and Yorma's. playing guitar, but in the background. somebody's typing their term paper. It. was done in their kitchen, >> right? >> And so they would, it was just a. amateur unauthorized thing, but they. played it on this one station. It became. a hit on that station. People requested. it. There were a couple other bands that. had tapes like that. >> And you could hear the typewriter in the.

background. >> Yeah. Going [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. She's. singing Hesitation Blues. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So that became the Let's do that. let's. do an end run around record companies. and just bring the thing straight to the. station. Well, they loved Suzie Q. They. started playing it probably eight times. a day. Each different disc jockey would. play it. It's eight minutes and 20. seconds long or whatever, right? And. that was really the true beginning. Um.

finished that album. My songwriting was, you know, wasn't great. It was. competent, but. somewhere right after. uh the album came out, oh, I I wanted to. make that point that everybody had ample. opportunity to write a song and it just. kind of wasn't coming. I would show up.

at the at the rehearsals, well, anybody got a song, you know, and. and everybody got real quiet. And so I. said, well, look, okay, let's work on. this. And I I began to. realize inside that it was going to be. up to me. It wasn't. It wasn't. I want to control everything. it was I. got to start rowing this boat or we're. we're gonna sink in the middle of the.

ocean. So, I started pushing myself. harder and harder. Um, the first album comes out on my birthday. um 1968. I'm 23 years old and. within sometime shortly after that, I. can't really pin down the I'm still in. the army, right? But I'm working on. getting released, getting out. Somewhere, I think in June or July, I. don't exactly know. My honorable.

discharge shows up. I open this package. that's been sitting there for a couple. days because it said official government. business. Who's that for? And I find it. was for me. It was a, you know, an. apartment house. I'm overjoyed. I mean, this is the biggest struggle has been of. my life. Wow. Wow. Wow. I turned a. little cartwheel on the lawn because I. want to remember that I turned the. cartwheel and ran in the house and.

picked up my guitar and started. playing these chords that are somewhat. like Beethoven. Oh, I start strumming this beat. I start hearing this chorus. See, left. The first thing I said was. left a good job in the city. That was.

getting out of the army. Wow. Working for the man every night and. day. Wow. What is this? Eventually, I. arrive at this thing where I say, "Rolling, rolling." Oh, I like that. rolling. rolling on the river. It's. starting to be beyond. me, >> out of me. Right? >> I look in my book because I said, "What. is this thing about? What am I doing.

here?" The very first thing I had. written in my little book of song titles. was Proud Mary. It's the actual first. line, first thing. I looked at that and. I said, "Wow, this is about Proud Mary's a river. boat. This is a a boat named Proud Mary. That's what we're doing here." And I. finished the song, right? I mean, it was. kind of Mark Twain. Uh.

>> kind of Jimmy Stewart, Gary Cooper, you. know, uh. had a little bit of kind of gospel. flavor and the old South in it. It's. Wow. When I got done, which was about an. hour, I was about an hour from when I'd. opened my honorable discharge. I'm. actually holding. the the little yellow tablet I've been. writing on. John, you've written the classic. I.

realized that this song was. I had evolved. It was way better than. anything I'd ever done before, you know. And so those meetings I'd been having. going to see the band and was anybody. got anything and no one ever did and I'd. show my little piece of something I was. working on. That kind of led, can I say it? To the confidence. to do something really great by.

just doing it right. And the knowledge I. mean I had I was self-aware. I'm looking. at this, [laughter] Proud Mary, and it's. it's got Americana in it, although I. don't think I had a word then. It's got. I knew it was Mark Twain in the river. and right all this soulful stuff. >> And wow, this for sure is the best thing. I'd ever done. I knew it was a great. song. And then the next re God, I hope I.

get to do this again [laughter]. because you just don't know. Right. Right. >> But that that was. >> a bolt of lightning and inspiration. charged up from the discharge. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Yeah. But but yes, and and something led. me to be better than I was. >> Wow. >> I mean, I I think what my point was it. was kind of the Willie Mays thing. I. never knew if I would be able to do that. or not.

Right. >> Right. you you're going along. You're. just plunking along clubs, whatever, learning a chord here and there, learning something off a record, hoping you have a career in music. because you like music. Me, I because my mother had focused had. kind of pointed out songwriters. Um, it put me in that realm. It put it. it it it. made me at least realize that that was.

one of the functions of music. That's. that's another story I could tell you. I. don't know if you want to hear that. >> I want to hear every story that that. that's a that's a fantastic story though. because that that that you just getting. that notice that you've been relieved. and you're no longer in active duty. You've got an honorable discharge. You're free. And then the inspiration. comes and you write your greatest song. of all time like that. Yep.

>> Or at least the greatest song to that. moment and realize this can be this can. happen. You really have it. You really. have it cuz you don't know until you try. and. >> you don't know till it happens. >> Yeah. You don't know. >> You know until Willie Mays one day did. something on the field, right? >> He didn't know. >> Right. >> And there was a point I as I alluded to. I've read about D. brochure knew when he. saw him and Willie wasn't so sure yet. [laughter]. >> Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy. Bad.

Moon Rising is another great fantastic. song. Another huge favorite of mine. But. uh also because it's in one of my. all-time favorite movies, American. Werewolf in London. >> Yeah, >> that scene where that song that must. have been cool to have that song play in. that movie. It's very cool to me now. At the I don't. even know if I saw the movie at the time. it came out. >> Um that was during the time I was still, you know,

away from music and kind of angry and. >> pissed off about my situation. So when. something would get done with my music, it kind of made me mad because nobody. asked me. >> Oh, [laughter] really? >> Yeah. >> Oh, right. Because you didn't have the. rights to it. Yep. Oh wow. Still phenomenal song. Phenomenal song. Did So did you write all the songs? >> I wrote all the songs from Credence. >> Wow. >> Until the the last album, the seventh.

album. That was basically a result of. the guys saying, "We want to, you know, there was a big band meeting. We want to. write the songs and we demand that we. get to write the songs and sing the. songs and make up our own musical. parts.". then been resisting that because I just. I thought it was going to really I. literally thought it would be career. suicide, you know, change everything. now, right? >> Yeah. Cuz. >> Well, here's here's another part of it.

You're. >> you're struggling in, you know, the the. early days of your career and the all. your life getting to that point, you're. trying to figure out what works, >> right? >> Right. I mean, it's just everyone goes. through that because clearly you don't. know what works yet. I haven't haven't. figured it out. And one day when some. stuff starts happening and well that's. how you do it. This and this and this. this works and I I got very good at. that. >> And you had put in that work and they. hadn't so they weren't really.

contributing and I they must have gotten. resentful that you were the one who. wrote all these big hits and eventually. they're like we want to try. We're. Credence too. Right. >> Well especially because two of them had. never written a song in their life. >> Oh that's crazy. And then they wanted to. write a song for Credence. While. Credence was huge. >> Yeah. I mean, there's a bit of. what's the word? Boulder dash in to. that. I mean, it's Wow. But maybe you. should, you know, rehearse a little.

prayers. I mean, I've been writing songs. since I was eight. Not that they were. jumped in. They could have jumped in. when in the beginning. >> Yeah. >> When you were writing all the songs and. they weren't coming up with anything. If. they did, you probably would have did. their songs as well if they went on a. similar path. >> It would have been like Yeah. Um, my songs weren't that good at that time, but they were, how can I say, they were maybe better. than average. They weren't great songs. yet. They were they were album songs or.

something. Right. >> Right. >> But what I'm getting at is that the. other guys were there was no songs. So, um, that's that's that thing in. I I keep using the Mooy Maze, you know, metaphor, if that's what it is. Uh, you. know, that example at some point you're. you're. you're working with the elements in the. field that you love and then you realize.

how to put it together and to make it. happen if you're lucky. And then comes. the time when you actually make. something that's good, right? And that I. mean, but that I can't think of anyone. that the first song they ever wrote boom. was uh a Maria or something, you know, >> right? I mean it's you know so um I I. just thought it was a journey and I mean. I had been on the journey myself and. seen it come but I think now I look at.

it I was excuse me I was probably. destined you know it was what I loved. and that was what was calling me. >> Yeah. >> I mean I. that that was my my motivation the whole. time since I was a child. I just loved. it and wanted to do that whatever it. was. >> Well, that's why it worked. >> Yeah. >> You put in the work and you loved it and. you worked at it and you tried to get it. better and you also got inspiration. You.

were also open to that inspiration. >> It's just funny that the band members. didn't contribute until the seventh. album and they wanted to jump in. [laughter]. It's kind of crazy, but understandable. Well, I mean, it's human nature to be. resentful, especially if you got a a. huge band and one guy is the lead singer. and that guy's also writing all the. songs. >> Yeah. I Well, I walked around for. uh many months, you know, mulling over. this whole thing because right after.

that meeting, shortly after that, my. brother Tom decided. he just left. You know, even though I kind of gave in. to all the demands, okay, we'll do it. that I could see that the band was going. to disintegrate unless I acquiesced, right? I mean, it was up until then, I'd. managed to keep it. Don't do that. Don't. do it's going to wreck us. Uh, so when I. agreed, I mean, it was literally a. couple months later Tom left. And so.

now, oh god, what's going to happen now? So I I didn't know if I was just going. to go n call it quits or. the the image in my mind was of when. Elvis got taken by the colonel just kind. of pulled out of the other guys and they. left them in alerts you might say. That's it's the way it looked to me, right? It's like Elvis got all new guys. and just kind of and and it was readily. apparent because I had already seen what.

the Elvis comeback special the the part. where they sat around in a circle and. did the old songs and he had the old. guys Scotty and Bill and or maybe Bill. was gone by then but um JD Fontana or D. J D Fontana um. and it was just apparent that that was. the best thing. Everybody loved that. part of his special. Most people just. for forget that anything else was on.

that thing other than Elvis singing. those songs and that that sort of was in. the back of my well maybe they deserve a. shot. Maybe they should, you know, maybe. I should do this. And so that's kind of. why I went forward with it. it almost like flipping a coin like well. the the odds I I think. my own sense tells me this isn't going. to work but maybe they deserve a chance. so I kind of went at it blindly that way.

like that. >> what was it like in the studio when they. started bringing the songs. >> well that's I mean that's it I mean. everyone can hear that all of us can you. know you just the album's called Marty. Gro. And in the press it was murdered, you. know, Rolling Stones said, "This is the. worst album ever made by a major group.". And I read that and I said, "I know.". [laughter] I mean, I literally I felt.

that it wasn't like I was trying to. defend it. It was, you know, it was just. >> How did the band react to that? >> Here's the deal. instead of going, "Yeah, that was a. mistake." Instead, they said, "He made. me do it." And so, yeah, they said, "I made them do it.". Whereas that was their idea. Of course, I didn't want to do that. Um,

and after that, I just, you know, I think we did a we did a tour. Oh, right. We did a tour. Um, one by one their songs dropped out of. the set. The songs that they had done on. Marty Groth, the other two guys. Yeah. They I don't want to sing that anymore. And so we of course went back to Proud. Mary and Fortunate Son and all that. And. there was a point that I could tell that.

the fans were kind of upset with this. whole premise. And so I. >> which whole premise what way what. >> of them singing songs and. kind of struggling along with equal time. for everybody. >> Oh I see. Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And so. finally it was time to I there there. wasn't enough there wasn't any way to. put it back together that I could see. >> Right. >> That was it was beyond me.

Now, in later later years that, you. know, I'm a much older guy. I mean, there were, you know, there's some. decisions that uh I made, one of them. was the decision to. uh not be in the movie Woodstock. They sent a tape of the band. doing Bad Moon Rising. It was okay. But. what had happened at Woodstock was the. Grateful Dead was on before us. Grateful.

Dead had all taken LSD. It's we were supposed to be on at 8:00, but it's now 2:00, 2:30 in the morning. by the time we get Grateful Dead goes on. kind of loses their way, but they're on. stage for an hour and a half or. something with nothing going on. So that. poor audience that's been through rain. and all the rest and muddy and they just. they just crashed a half a million str. just boom, you know, and that's what I.

get, right? We come running out on stage. and and we playing a few songs and all I. see is sleeping people [laughter]. and eventually. >> the last I think 20 minutes of our set. finally got them up. We warmed them up. for Janice. That's the way I always say, you know, they got going again. But that. was a that was a struggle all through. that. So I get sent and it was a it was. a bad taste in my mouth about that.

evening because every [clears throat]. we'd gone to so much trouble and we at. that moment we were certainly the number. one band in the US and probably on our. way to being number one in the world. And so I just, you know, here's this. kind of ordinary tape of Bad Moon and I. just thought I don't this doesn't help. us. It doesn't further us at all. Um, nah, I'm going to pass. And by the way, the Grateful Dead is not in Woodstock.

either. I didn't really recognate. dead was in Woodstock, right? Um, >> it's probably unusable. So, if there'd. been an older guy around us, a manager. that was like 50 instead of me with my. bad taste about the evening, the older. guy might have said, "Hey, you know, your version of Suzie Q live, even. though those people were sleeping, the. band was cooking. You know, you guys.

played good. You can't hardly see. anything anyway." That crappy old He. said, "But that recording's good. Maybe. we should demand that look, you put us. in the movie and give us eight minutes, not two minutes or by then it was. probably 15 minutes long, you know. Um, I think that was a decision that could. probably I could reassess, you know, if. it if it was someone else, but that's. not what was on my plate at the time.

Uh, I was only offered bad move. I, you. know, and at the time I felt I was right. because we went on and. did great. And by the way, the band. broke up before Woodstock came out. anyhow. So, it kind of was a mute point. >> Did it feel better for you when you were. on your own? Did Did you like that. better? Were you It was just the John. Frog band. You didn't have to have all. those guys and all the [ __ ]. Well, you're asking a, you know, we're.

all human beings and we've got a lot of. years behind us. Um, if you're asking me. right now, yeah, because I play in a. band with my sons. >> Oh, that's awesome. >> You know, and Yep. >> That's awesome. >> And I don't know, there might be a. picture of that somewhere. Um, and so and all the other guys in the. band are their age. Oh wow. >> And so.

it, how can I say it? You don't you. don't have a whole bunch of people. trying to prove something like their. record deal or you know. >> because you asked the question kind of. caught me by surprise. After well after. Credence I didn't play for a long time. >> How long? >> But the first band huh? >> How long how long did you not play for? I went on tour in ' 86 with uh.

a a bunch of hired hands they call it, right? Studio guys. And that was that. was it was behind number one. I didn't. play any Credence era songs. >> I was so mad at my situation. >> I just played new songs. >> Wow. Everyone on the left, that's Shane. That's me. That's my son Tyler. That's. my daughter Kelsey.

And then that's Jesse Wilson back there, our bass player. >> That's awesome. >> And so um yeah, and there's a right then. that might be a moment in Chuglan where. we all do a riff together and all that. and it just so cool to all be standing. there. >> That's amazing. >> So yeah. Um, I mean, you know, don't get. me wrong, the beginnings of Credence was. magical and wonderful, right? I mean, it. really it truly looked and planned for. your whole life. Um, and it stayed that.

way for about a year, I think. And then. other stuff that I never understood. I I. mean, it was beyond it was unpleasant. and I didn't understand why. Right. So. after that it was it was that was. difficult. Then when I first started. playing again um in ' 86 and also and. much more in 97 after Blue Moon Swamp. came out and I had a series of bands.

that were. I can say trying to put people together. parts from here and there and there. So. it kind of never really was one. solidified thing and you you would find. that. a lot of people had. personal agendas you might say you know. they were working on their own career. and all that and there was sort of. believe it or not even at that level.

different jealousies and things again. there I was I could I could sense it. sometimes people were jealous you know. like oh my god When you see that. picture, there's no jealous, >> right? >> See, I mean, this is really fun for me. now. >> Well, that is the problem with so many. bands is the conflicting personalities. It's always a miracle to me that any. band stays together and that they could. stay together like the Stones where. they're still touring now after all. these years. >> The Stones are a lesson in.

how everyone should be because we've all. heard the stories about the Stones. We. know there's problems here and there and. everywhere and all that. Yet, they rose. above that. They just decided that, you. know what? What? Yeah. Okay. Well, I. don't like that guy over there tonight, but I'm just going to do this and. they're all brothers when they're out. there doing that. >> Yeah. >> And that's great. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's I mean, there's times, let's say, in war or whatever where you.

have to kind of subjugate your personal. stuff for the greater good. >> Yeah. >> Right. And that kind of what they do, the Stones, and that God bless them. >> I think the thing is everybody wants to. be the man. And when you got so many. egos and there's one guy like you who's. writing all the songs, all these other. people, they're just like they feel. less, you know, and they get resentful. >> Yep. I think that's. pretty normal human nature. And then.

that has to be dealt with. >> Yeah. Sometimes you can't though. You know, some people can't be reasoned with. Some. people just are they're not rational. They see things in a distorted lens, especially if they're not the people. that created everything, but yet they've. been along for the ride. They don't feel. like they're getting what they deserve. >> Mhm. >> That's what it seems like. >> I wanted to tell you a story about how I. got into this in the first place. >> Okay. Um, I told you about my mom noticing.

uh the music coming out of me. One day. she brought me home from nursery school. where she was one of the helper. teachers, I guess, one of the moms, you. know, of the staff. She brought me home. and sat me down on a little chair. It. was now I look back, it was a little. ceremony. She had a little yellow. record, a kids record. And it basically. what she did was she played both sides. of this little record. One side was Oh,

Susanna and the other side was Camptown. Races. Doo da da. You know that one. And. then she asked me, "Well, do you like. this music?" I said, "Yeah, man. These. are cool songs." Or whatever a kid says. "I really like these." She says, "Well, I'm going to play them again, Johnny.". She plays both songs and she says, "Do. you know that Stephen Foster is the man. that wrote both of these songs?". What do you mean, Mu? He said, "Well,

Stephen Foster is a real person that. wrote this music and I wanted you to. know that these are his wonderful songs. and that people do write songs." And. then she gave me the record that kind of. became my little possession, right? And. I've reflected on that moment in my life. for I mean I used to tell people why did. she do that? What in the world was she. thinking? Right? And all through the. years.

uh with that I was living at home with. my mom. You know, there'd be somebody on. TV. There's Irving Berlin. And I go, "Yeah, mom. Hey, he's a songwriter." Or. she let me know Hogi Carmichael was one. of her favorites. So he became one of my. favorites, right? And of course on into. the rock and roll era, as you notice. that the Beatles, Lennon and McCartney. were writing these songs. I mean, it it. just became a a thing, a part of me. And. it all started back there with my mom.

and Stephen Foster. And number one, he. was a great songwriter. So that lltilt. that sort of kind of songwriting he's. also very corny. >> you [laughter] know I mean that that. voice that personality. certainly became. it it got contributed it got lent to me. uh through the the records the.

recordings because Stephen didn't make. any records as far as I know um and. those songs just sort. got infiltered into my personality. I. mean, my mom, put it this way, I I think. I even talked it over with mom. I I feel. like Stephen Foster could have written. Proud Mary. It seems like that. territory. >> Yeah. Wow. That's awesome. >> Right. that I don't know what my my mom. was giving me a gift,

>> you know, and that you you just never. know how powerful those little moments. with your kids are, but that that was a. big one for me. >> That's awesome. That's awesome. Listen, John, it's been an honor having you on. Thank you very much. I'm a gigantic fan. So, for me, it was a real pleasure to. get to talk to you. The story is. fantastic. >> Thank you very much. And, uh, you're on. tour. Tell everybody where they could. see you. >> Oh, wow. Well, you know, we are the. Legacy Tour. You may know I've just.

re-recorded a lot of my old songs from. the Credence time and I'm having a ball. We're just all over. >> Look at that. >> Well, there you go. >> Wow. >> That's a picture from back in the day, of course. >> What a cool album, too. Does it really. look like that? >> Yeah. >> Oh, nice. [laughter] That's sick. I love it. Beautiful. Thank you, sir. Really, thank. you very much. It was awesome. Bye, everybody. >> [music].