Joe Rogan Experience #2475 - Andrew Jarecki

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> WHAT UP, MAN? >> What's happening, [music] man? How are. you? >> I'm good. How are you? >> I'm great. I watched your documentary, The Alabama Story, last night, and it. was wild. It's very, very disturbing. Um, kind of shocked I hadn't heard more. about it. You know, cuz it's such a. terrible.

terrible story. It's such a. just a unbelievably awful situation. And, um, I think you covered it really. well. It's just It's very, very. heartbreaking. >> Yeah, thanks for watching it. Yeah, it's sort of a question of of. sort of a question of why people, uh, don't know about things that are. happening with our tax dollars in our. backyards. You know, are there things. that we don't want to know? Um, there's a reason why people sort of. drive by prisons on the highway, and. they see the little metal sign, and it.

says, you know, XYZ Correctional, and. they probably think, as I did for many. years, well, I'm sure it's not great. back there, but it doesn't need to be. great, and if anything terrible was. happening back there, somebody probably. tell me about it. But, because of the. secrecy that surrounds prisons, um, you know, we treat them sort of like. black sites. There's no way for us to really look. inside. So, the press doesn't get let. in, and the public doesn't understand. what's happening, and we know that, you. know, when you give people total control. over other people,

bad things happen. >> Bad things happen every single time. And. this is one of the worst things. It's. What's really terrifying is the sheer. numbers of people that died there with. no investigation. That's what's really. terrifying. >> Yeah. >> Because, you know, you even detailed. that at the end, like, since then, how many people have died? And it's just like, good lord. You're. You're. thousands. >> Yeah. Well, there's a attorney general. in Alabama named Steve Marshall,

who's always run on like tough on crime. strategies and saying, you know, we got. a lot more people up and people who are. in prison for. violent crime shouldn't potentially. never get out of prison ever. And he says in the film as you remember. that there I ask him about the nature of. crime and he says, well, I think there. are evil people in this world, people. who have absolutely no regard for human. life. And this is a guy who's presided. over a system that's killed, that's led.

to the deaths of 1,500 people just since. we started making the film. >> Right. >> So, this question of like who are the. good guys and who are the bad guys and. you know, what's the nature of of. cruelty, what's the nature of. punishment, are we putting people there. to try to make them better, rehabilitate. them, are we putting them there because. they're drug addicts and we're trying to. get rid of them as opposed to. rehabilitate them or as opposed to try. to get them off of drugs. So, obviously. prisons have become pretty much a. catch-all for the ills of society. So,

if you have mental illness, much more. likely to go to prison. Once you're in. prison, if you're mentally ill or you. have bad social skills, you're much more. likely to get into a scrape with a guard. who probably isn't trained to deal with. somebody who's mentally ill and you're. much more likely to get murdered, which. is what we saw happening in Alabama. >> Well, you you even. the it's the old expression, who's going. to watch the watchers, right? Cuz one of. the things that you detail is very. obviously non-violent people who.

spend all their time writing and reading. and they're getting retribution because. they're calling attention to the. terrible conditions at the prison. So, the one guy with the glasses who was. beaten blindly, what was his name? >> Uh Robert Old Council. >> I mean, there's. so many stories that you show in this. documentary from. smuggled cameras. So these guys all get. contraband cameras. >> From the guards.

>> From the guards. Yeah, the guards sell. the camera sell the sell the phones to. the men inside. >> Which is also crazy. >> Yeah. I mean there's so many drugs in. the Alabama state prison system and I. spoke to one of the people who was. incarcerated there early on on a. contraband cell phone and I said, you. know, where all the the drugs coming. from the amount of drugs here. This is. incredible, you know, human. wasteland. You're seeing just high high. percentage maybe 80% of the people are. addicted to drugs. Many of whom were not.

addicted to drugs before they came in. and how are you getting all the cell. phones and the guy looked at me like I. was, you know, stupid and he said, you know, we don't. leave, right? And I thought, oh, I get it. The people. that come and go are the guards. Those. are the ones that go out. They get the. packages. They bring them in and I've. spoken to guards who said, you know, we. make $36,000 a year without the drugs. without the cell phones. So of course we. got to sell the cell phones and the.

drugs because that takes us up to 70 or. 75,000. [snorts]. >> Oh god. >> Yeah. >> [sighs]. >> So what are the main drugs these guys. are addicted to? What are they getting. them? >> Well, there's there's uh. originally, right? It was sort of more. traditional drugs and people were using. heroin and using. whatever they could get a hold of, but. as the drugs have gotten more. complicated and easier to bring in. Now. they can actually put there's a drug. called flakka which is a very uh.

significant problem there. Fentanyl. obviously also, but these drugs can be. brought in uh on a piece of paper. So. somebody could send you a letter and it. could be in the letter. They can. actually put the drug into the paper. >> Oh, sort of like acid when they put acid. on paper. >> Yeah. And and so, you know, there's this. effort to kind of stop that, but then. does it lead to people being unable to. communicate with their loved ones? Ultimately, the the easiest way to get. the drugs is for the officers to sell.

the drugs. And so, you know, we say and. I think it's sadly true that the Alabama. Department of Corrections, and it's not. just in Alabama, but obviously we use. that as the lens through which we saw. incarceration more generally, but the. Alabama Department of Corrections is the. largest law enforcement agency in the. state of Alabama, and it's also the. biggest drug dealing operation. >> [laughter]. >> You know, you're you're much more likely. to die of an overdose inside the prison.

than you are out on the street in. Alabama. >> Really? Statistically? Oh my god. Oh, boy. You know, one of the things that is uh. was very heart-wrenching is this uh. callous approach these you. you showed at the one time where all. these uh prisons went on strike. So, they all communicated with each other. through these contraband cell phones. they all got from the guards. So, I. guess it's ubiquitous throughout the. state, it's not just this one. >> Correct. >> And um these people on the radio were.

like, "Well, it's prison, it's supposed. to suck.". You know, maybe if they had saw your film, they. wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude. about it. >> Yeah. >> But it's that attitude. It's like. these are human beings, and some of them. barely did anything. Like one guy. that wound up dying from. you think they did something to or they. think they did something to a cigarette. that they gave this guy. He all he did was break into an.

abandoned building. >> Yeah. >> He didn't steal anything? >> And and during an unoccupied building. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. His name is James. >> I don't even know if he broke in, right? It was unoccupied, it might have even. been open. >> Yeah, it said entering. >> So, he entered a building that he wasn't. supposed to enter and he got 15 years in. a cage. and then on his way out. the. at least they're inferring that they. killed him because he had too much. information about what was going on. inside and he was going to get out. >> Yeah, this goes back to the story of a.

woman um. who we had met and her son when we were. first communicating with the men using. these contraband cell phones and they. were telling us what was going on inside. the prison. inside the various prisons. Um we sort. of in the early days we couldn't believe. it cuz the way we got into the prisons. to begin with is I had gone down to. Alabama um because I was always. interested in incarceration and the. problems of that system and the justice. system. I'd made other films about the.

justice system. And uh and and I was. always curious about Alabama cuz it's. sort of famously maybe the worst prison. system in the country, but it mirrors a. lot of others. And my daughter was 14 at. the time, Jeremy, and she uh. and she said, "You know, I'm reading. this book by a guy named Anthony Ray. Hinton and it's a book about his. wrongful imprisonment in Alabama and. maybe you should read this with me." So, we end up reading the book together and. then we both sort of just spontaneously. decided to take a road trip to.

Montgomery because we just didn't know. anything about it, had never been there. Uh she was growing up in New York and it. was just not in her frame of reference. So, we went down there and we met a man. who was the first black prison chaplain. in the state of Alabama, uh Chaplain. Browder. And I said, "Well, I'm really curious. about what's going on in the prisons.". And he said, um "Well, you should just. come in with me." And I said, "Well, I'm. a filmmaker. They're not going to let me. just walk into the prison in Alabama.". And he said, "Well, just don't come in. as a filmmaker. You just don't have to.

bring a camera. You just come in and. talk to some of the guys." So, I went in. to film. uh ultimately we we were allowed to film. ultimately in one of the prisons. And. when we were in there to film this. revival meeting, just cuz we we were. lucky enough to find a a warden who felt. like uh you know, he wanted to to show. an example of how Christianity was. um active and important in the prison. system, which I agreed with. Um but then. while we were in there filming,

uh with like five cameras, which was. just unheard of. The men inside couldn't. believe that there were any cameras in. there. And they started taking us aside. and saying, "Listen, what they're. showing you here is a very curated. version of what's going on in this. prison. You have to get into these other. buildings. You've got to see what's. going on in that dorm over there called. the the behavior modification dorm, where guys have been killed by guards. And you've got to look in that dorm, where people have been in solitary. confinement for 5 years at a time. You. know, don't let them show you just what.

they want to show you." And I felt much. safer, you know, even though the warden. had said to us, "When you go in there, you know, don't talk to any of the men. They're all very dangerous." I I. immediately felt safer talking to the. inmates than I did talking to any of the. guards. And uh. when we left, it was really because we. got kicked out, right? We we we start. You saw in the beginning of the film, we. sort of start getting nosy and we start. trying to look in some of these other. areas, and then they they shut down the. filming, they throw us out. And then we. thought, "Well, you know, maybe we're.

stuck now. How are we going to make a. film about this? We feel we have to. because we're the only people that know. what's going on in here, but they're not. going to let us back." So, it was then. that we found out that there was this. network of men inside who had access to. these contraband cell phones, who were. documenting what was going on. So, that. was our way of getting into those. buildings that we couldn't see inside. Um and one of the first things we. learned was uh one of one of the guys. inside, Melvin Ray,

texted us to say, "Hey, um. you know, this this this guard it was a. guard that we had been tracking already. who was a particularly violent guard. Um. he just beat somebody very badly and. he's now that person the victim is at. UAB Hospital. So, we jumped in a car and. we went to UAB Hospital and just walked. up I just put my iPhone in my pocket and. we just walked up to the. intensive care unit. And when we got. there we found that this young man. Steven Davis had had died from his.

injuries. And as we started to get. deeper into it we went visited his. mother cuz we didn't even know if she. knew that she had lost her son. But in. fact she had been with him when he. passed away. She had sort of turned off. the life support. And. we said, "We want to make a film about. this. We we're we're trying to tell the. story." And she immediately said, "I'm in. I want to help you. I don't. want this to happen to any other. mothers." You know, and this is a a very. nice white lady from Uniontown Alabama.

with a oxygen tank. I mean she's she's. not somebody that you would see. ordinarily as kind of a heroic person. But when she loses her son she really. becomes uh so activated and she ends up. telling us the story and then she says, "Look, you know. uh they're lying to me already. You. know, my son just died last night and. they're already calling me and telling. me things about how he was the one that. attacked the guards and none of this is. true. This all seems like it's it's.

fake. So, teach me how to record my. phone calls, you know? So, this this. older woman suddenly became a a really. important partner in making the film. And this gets back to your question. about Steven Davis. So, her son who was. a drug addict. but I didn't kill anybody but was in a. car when a drug deal went bad. He went. to try to buy drugs and his friend went. in the house and they had a fight and. somebody got shot. And then he got. arrested and was charged with murder. because that's how the felony murder.

statute works. And so here you have drug. addict who goes to prison in Alabama. and is in the highest security prison. there. and is targeted by a particular guard. who is especially violent and is just. beaten to death in front of 70. witnesses. Um. and then of course. as we go through the film we start. tracking that in our investigation and. we start looking into the cover-up and. why they lied about how he had died and. how they scrambled witnesses and how the.

Department of Corrections um is. organized so that they prevent people. from finding out what really happened to. their kids or their loved ones and they. avoid liability and so on. And there was. one person that we ended up hearing from. this guy James Sales who originally. tells just the police side of the story. just says well you know yeah it's. exactly the way that the guard said. But. then he kind of hints on the phone. listen when I get out of here I'll I'll. tell the real story.

>> Now did they have access to these. communications? Is there a way they. could be hacking into it and know that. Sales had said that to you? >> Well the the the person that that he. said it to was the lawyer for Sandy Ray. so so he was supposed to be on a uh. private attorney call but we do think. that. the Department of Corrections doesn't. abide by that. I think they I think they. do listen to attorney calls. Sales didn't say exactly on the phone.

what he was going to say but but I think. they knew that he was a problem cuz he. was a good person. I mean Sales the one. who who entered an unoccupied building. and was locked up for 15 years for that. Um was obviously decent person that's. why he says you know when when I get out. um I'll speak to that. I'm not going to. lie to that man's mother. But right now. this is their world bro. I I'm I'm not. going to I'm not going to say more. I'm. not going to put myself in. >> just by saying that. might have been his death sentence.

>> He also as he started to get closer to. getting out, you know, cuz he was he was. killed uh a month before he was getting. it out. And so as he started getting closer to. release, he just started to get more. frustrated and more angry and started to. say things to guards about like, you. know, you know what I've seen in here. and and I'm going to you know. And then. lo and behold uh he he gets found uh in. a cell. dead. And you know, he's bleeding from.

orifices in his body. I mean, it's. pretty clear that he was given what they. call a hot shot, which is they give you. a cigarette that's got something bad on. it and it uh and it can kill you. >> Boy. Um so when you first started uh when you. first showed up with cameras, did you. know. basically what was going on? Do you have. an understanding of what was going on? Like what were you attempting to do when. you got there? Were you just going to. try to investigate and figure it out? Or.

did you already have reports? >> We already we knew a bunch of stuff, you. know, we knew because we had had this. this we had visited some prisons as. volunteers. Um and I'd gone on the death row uh with. my my filmmaking partner Charlotte. Huffman. We had had gone into Easterling. and we had gone originally into Holman. prison where they have the death row. And we went in there with the chaplain. and the lieutenant came down and said um. you know, unfortunately, we're so um.

understaffed right now, which is an. understatement. Um that you know, we. don't have anybody to take you around, but you know, chaplain, I I know you. want to show your friends around the. death row, so you know, just go for it. So we ended up walking around the death. row for like two or three hours just. talking to men. And those men were very. helpful. They they weren't, you know, we. weren't talking to irrational people. We. weren't talking to, you know, they're. they're people who were trying to get. the story out. And so we knew going in.

that there were a lot of bad things. happening. We didn't know exactly what. And then when we went into Easterling. and the men started calling us aside and. saying, you know, "They beat me so bad I. defecated on myself." Or, you know, I I. just saw there were five stabbings this. week and none have been reported. Um we. started [clears throat] to realize that. it was really a a huge crisis, but it. was just being kept secret. >> This episode is brought to you by. Surfshark. With the help of AI, scammers are. getting smarter every day sending emails. that look legit but are designed to.

steal your data, passwords, and money. If you want to stay protected, you got. to check out Surfshark. It's way more. than your good old VPN. It's an. all-in-one security tool. They have a. ton of advanced features and one in. particular that's called email scam. checker. This thing notifies you if an. email you received is a scam or a. phishing attempt. So instead of just. guessing whether the bank email is real, you can check it before you click. And. of course, Surfshark still provides the.

standard VPN benefits of hiding your. online activity or allowing you to. virtually change your location and. access geo-blocked content while. traveling. The final kicker, one. subscription covers unlimited devices. So you can protect your phone, laptop, even share it with your household. Pay. for one tool, protect all aspects of. your online life. Go to. surfshark.com/rogan.

or use code Rogan at checkout and get. four extra months of Surfshark. surfshark.com/rogan. or code Rogan for four extra months. So. it's a cra- it's crazy that you're. relying on these guards to get in the. phones that they're using to expose the. crimes of the guards. So, and it's like. the guards are aware of the phones cuz. they provided them to the inmates and. they're contra- they're not supposed to.

have them, but yet they all do. And so, they have to ignore it if they want to. keep selling them phones? >> Well, another way of looking at it is. that there's so little accountability. that they don't actually think they're. going to get in trouble for anything and. they're kind of right. Right? And if you. remember that that guard who killed. Steven Davis, Rod Gadsden, you know, this guy might be. the most violent prison guard in. America. He's still working in the. Alabama state prison system after he's a. has a starring role.

I against his will, I'm sure, but after. he has a starring role in our. documentary, which has been seen by. millions of people, they still have him employed there. They. still have him interacting with people. >> And he got hired to a higher position. >> Yeah. Yeah, he got he's been promoted. twice and now he's up for another. promotion. So, I think to some extent the guards. just say, "Well, you know, I can do whatever I want. I. can sell the cell phones." And by the. way, not all the guards are bad, right? That there are guards that we met there. who were pretty heartbroken because they.

went into the system hoping to make. change or trying to maybe they wanted to. work in the police department and there. weren't any jobs, but in their town they. had the ability to work in a prison, so. they kind of went in there and described. to us that they wanted to help people. with addiction. They wanted to see if. they could help rehabilitate people, but. when they got in there, they realized. very quickly that was not what was in. the offing. That wasn't an opportunity. for them. >> So, so the guy, this Roger guy that beat. Steven to death, um. the story was that Steven had some sort.

of an implemented weapon, correct? >> Yeah, that he had a plastic knife. >> Right. Was Was there any evidence of. that? >> Um he had some kind of like a a some. kind of plastic uh thing that he had. made. It did not appear to be anything very. serious because the reason he had made. it is cuz somebody had called him gay. And you have to fight your way out of. that, right? He wasn't gay, as it turns. out, um but when they. >> your way out of that? So somebody calls.

you gay, you have to fight them? >> Yeah, you In other words, you can't put. up with that because otherwise they're. going to turn you into what they call a. They're going to turn you into. somebody that gets raped. And there's so. much rape in the prison that the the DOJ. report uh that came out said that. there's rape occurring at all hours of. the day and night in all areas of the. prison. >> Oh. >> So rape is such a significant problem. um and when Steven Davis was in there. and was accused of being gay, he had to. make a show of of fighting the person.

that was calling him gay. He He never. went after the guards or anything like. that. And everybody that that the lawyer. spoke to, um you know, a dozen witnesses. who had seen what happened, all of them. said. he as soon as the guards came in, he. immediately lay down on the floor and. put his weapon about 15 ft away from. him, put his his plastic knife. 15 ft away. And what then the guards came in and. just started beating him even though. there was no threat. And he would say. And the guards would say Gadson was.

saying to to Steven Davis, you know, quit resisting, quit resisting. And he wasn't resisting at all, and. that's what all the witnesses said. >> So they just have to say that, so they. yell it out? >> Yeah, it's almost I think it was almost. like it was almost just a warning to. everybody else. Like, look, I can do. anything that I want. I can say that. he's resisting. Isn't it funny? >> Oh. >> You know? And uh and the way, you know, the way he kills him, he stomps on his head with his size 15. boot. This is a guy who's almost 300 lb.

I think he's about 6 ft 5. And he's been. implicated in 24 other. excessive force cases and the Attorney. General in Alabama every single time is. defending the guard. >> How many other people died in those. cases? >> There've been a lot of other injuries. The only. I think that there've been two people. who've died out of the 24 25 cases that. we know about. But but there are a lot of just. maimings. There are a lot of situations. where people are just damaged often.

permanently. You saw what happened in. Kinetic Justice when he, you know, Robert Earl Council when he leads a. non-violent work strike the guards come. and attack him and and he loses sight in. one of his eyes. He's, you know, dragged. out of the cell. There's huge amount of. blood. Um. So, you know, the especially these guys. who are leading a non-violent effort to. try to improve conditions. they're always met with violence. >> Right. He was the guy that was at the. head of this strike. >> Yeah. >> And then the strike really highlights.

something that I think a lot of people. are unaware of is how many industries. actually use the prison system. essentially for slave labor. >> Sure. Yeah. I mean, that was a shock to. me, I think, is that, you know, I guess. we all sort of assume, well, if you're. in prison and they ask you to mop the. floor you need to help serve the meals. or something, you know, that's a. reasonable thing to do. I think what we. don't realize is that those people are. leased out to the governor to the.

mansion where the governor lives. >> Crazy. >> Um you know, where the Yeah. Yeah. >> that were denied parole were allowed to. be on the grounds of the governor's. mansion doing like groundwork. >> Exactly. >> Landscaping and stuff. >> Yeah. And and beyond that. >> [clears throat]. >> they're used for labor in industry, right? So, those are those guys are sent. out in the mornings in vans. They go. work at McDonald's. They work at Burger. King. They work at Kentucky Fried. Chicken, they work at the Hyundai plant, they work at the Budweiser dealership,

and it's all sort of under the heading. of well, this is good for the guys. They. get to get out to the community, but it's a forced labor situation. because if they don't if they don't. accept those assignments, then they're. going to be punished and they're going. to be punished with long stays in. solitary confinement. They're going to. be given disciplinaries so that their. sentences can be extended. They are. often just beaten for that. So, it's. really an extension. I've heard you on. the on your show talk about.

you know, talk about the Jim Crow laws. which led to convict leasing. And what. we're seeing in Alabama now, it's not. like convict leasing. It is exactly. convict leasing. They are just selling. the labor of incarcerated people. to industries. >> For pennies on [clears throat] the. dollar of what you would get if you had. to pay people. >> Yeah, and they I mean they get paid. well. They get paid. They get paid well. Yeah. >> But not the the you're saying they. [clears throat] meaning the prisons get. paid well, but not the prisoners.

>> Correct. >> Do the prisoners get any money? >> They they get a little money. For. example, the the guy you see who's. driving a sanitation truck Danny. Dandridge. describes how he's getting paid $2 a day. and. >> Now, is that standard across the board. for all those other jobs? Hyundai plant, everything? >> I think for that for that job, they're. they get paid a little bit of money and. then on top of that they're charged for. the cost of the van that takes them to. the workplace. They're charged for the.

uniform that they have to wear. So, it's. sort of like there there are kind of. fees and fines that knock everything. down to almost nothing and. >> in a lot of cases, the $2 a day is a. lot. You know, they're they're required. to do. lots of work unpaid in the prisons. They. do all the construction. You could see that even the drug dorm. where the the counselor. decided to leave his job. There was a. professional drug counselor in one of. the prisons.

And nobody replaces him. And so Raul. Poole, one of the guys in our film, uh. just starts running the drug dorm. And. that's a drug dorm that's getting money. from the federal government to pay for. drug treatment program in prison. And. that money's just not going anywhere. Or. money's just going into the coffers of. whoever's running the prison system. >> God. And accountability for all the. money? Is there any Do they do an audit. of the money? Does there Is it just. >> There really is not any meaningful.

accountability. You know, there's like. the state auditor who we actually. interviewed and spent a lot of time with. just sort of threw up his hands. You. know, he said this there's just no way. for me to keep track of this money. And. you know, for example, uh they they got. this incredibly horrible uh set of. findings from the Justice Department, right? The DOJ went into the Alabama. state prison system and did an. investigation because. for reasons I can explain that are kind. of incredible. Um but anyway, they went in there and.

they investigated the whole prison. system, which I think they'd never done. before. You know, usually they. investigate an individual prison. [snorts] or something like that. Um and. they went in and and and issued a report. that said, "This is a you know, beyond. the pale. There's There are horrific. things that are happening in your. prisons. People being murdered and. there's the highest rate of drug. overdose and. uh highest rate of rape." And Alabama's. response was to say, "Well, you know, we. think that's just anecdotal and you. don't know what you're talking about.".

And then they decided that their. solution, the Alabama solution that we sort of. ironically talk about in the title of. the film, the one the governor talks. about, is just to build new prisons. And. meantime, the DOJ did not say to build. any new prisons. The DOJ said, "Your. problem is with corruption and brutality. and you have you're operating really a. criminal enterprise um and therefore you. need to address the underlying. problems." And Alabama's response was,

"Well, the DOJ says the prisons are no. good, so we got to build new ones.". Well, that, you know, so. >> a massive contract. >> Yeah, exactly. So, we, you know, we. always call it the Alabama Department of. Construction because they don't really. change anything unless they have the. opportunity to build something and. that's really good for all the. governor's supporters and all the other. people who are, you know, in the. construction industry and. you know, they've now started. construction. on these massive new prisons. You know, Alabama's a tiny state. It's like, you.

know, a smaller population, I think, than Norway. And they've got a tiny. budget and yet they figure out how to. put together a multi-billion dollar. prison construction plan. They can't. fund it at first. The governor announces. she's going to build these new prisons, which the DOJ did not ask for and are. not going to solve the problem. And they. admit, by the way, that they're not. going to affect overcrowding, which is a. huge problem. The prisons are operating. at like 200% capacity. And, you know,

when they're asked about it, the head of. the Department of Corrections uh. they ask him, you know, "Is this going. to affect the overcrowding and. or is it just the same number of beds?". And he goes, "No, it's the same number. of beds. We're, you know, it's not going. to affect overcrowding." So, they're. building these massive new facilities. The governor can't get them paid for. She can't raise the money in a bond. offering. So, they go after the COVID. money that they got from the government. which is not designed to build prisons, right? It's very hard to argue that.

building prisons is something that's. going to relieve. some other kind of health problem or. whatever. Um and then I think they get. fined for that or they're they're. they're you have to pay a fine if you. use government money for a thing that's. not supposed to be for. Um and then when they start. construction, they still can't raise the money, but. they start building the new prisons even. before they're authorized by the. legislature. That's how clearly it was. uh communicated that these prisons were.

going to happen. You know, in other words, we we had a. crew in Alabama that was watching this. site of this one massive prison that. they were planning on building, and they. were just bean fields. And it's quite beautiful, actually. And. one day I get a call from somebody, and. they say, "We got to start filming. because there are 25 earth movers here.". And I said, "Well, that's impossible. because the the the legislature hasn't. even approved the new prison. construction." And they said, "Well, the. prison construction companies know it's.

happening, and they're already spending. hundreds of thousands of dollars just to. clear the site.". So, the fix was in on this new prison. construction. And the governor announced. that it was going to cost $900 million. to build three new prisons. So far, they've broken ground and are far along. on the first prison, and it's up to $1.3. billion. So, when you open. So, when you open that door, a whole lot. of of whole lot of commerce comes in. A. whole lot of companies come in.

You know, and they ask them why it went. so Why was it so expensive? Why How did. it go from $300 million for one prison. to $1.3 billion for one prison and. counting? Uh and they said, "Well, well, you know, it's inflation." And. uh you know, meanwhile, like I'm pretty. sure that the government's not going to. say that we got 400% inflation at the. moment. Um. so, it's it's uh you know, it's kind of. institutionalized thievery. >> Yeah, it's organized crime. >> Yeah. >> The I mean, when you are in charge of.

deciding what's crime. >> Yeah. >> And you're running a state like Alabama. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, money in. the justice system. is a very perverting factor. You know, I. made this film this series called The. Jinx. and Robert. series, by the way. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. >> Like you know, you watch this going, "What?". >> Yeah. >> Is this real? >> Yeah, me, too. I mean, you know, he's.

[clears throat and cough]. he's an incredible he's an incredible. person to watch. But one thing about him. is, you know, that family's worth $9. billion. This is not like a regular rich. person in America. This is. an extra super duper rich person in. America. And he's killed three people. over 30 years and just walking around. gotten away with it. Meantime, you have, you know, young women, moms in Brazos. County Jail in Texas. You know, our. mutual friend Jeff Ross did a a a. documentary there. And he interviews the.

girls that are in there and he says, "What are you in here for?" And two of. them say, "I'm in here cuz I stole baby. formula.". So, you know, that's a money money means. a lot in this equation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [sighs]. >> The money stuff is is all over the. place. You know, it's um the the the. perverting of the system with money. um you see because, you know, for. example,

these big prison companies like GEO. Group and CoreCivic make money by having. full prisons. You know, they're private. prison companies uh but there are lots. of prison there are a lot of companies. that provide services to public prisons. to to to state prisons like, you know, Sysco and all these companies that sell. food there. But everybody makes more. money if the prisons are full. And so, you have um. the the head of uh of of. uh CoreCivic just did a a shareholder.

call not too long ago. Um and he's Hininger, I think his name. is. And and they said, you know, what do. you think what's the outlook? And he. said, oh, with all the new immigration, prisons, and all the prisons, and all. the increased and, you know, uh. emphasis on law enforcement and on. incarceration, you know, this is the. most exciting time in my career. >> Oy. >> So, you know, you're really building. this prison industrial complex every. day, um especially right now, I think.

And. all these people are doing they're all. doing bad stuff. You know, there's a. there's a company called um. uh there's a company called Securus, which is run by Tom Gores, who who uh. is a big team owner, owns the Pistons, Detroit Pistons, and some other teams. And uh is a private equity guy worth. about $10 billion. And his company. Securus does communications for the. prison systems. And they made deals that.

have now been sort of exposed, but they. uh made deals with sheriffs' departments. where they had jails. And they said, instead of letting kids. visit their parents in jail and actually. get to see them and hug them and maybe. have some kind of normalcy, um let's install video visit terminals. So, the the cover story was the video. visits are going to be great cuz you. don't have to drive across the state to. see your loved one.

But the contract specifically said that. they had to replace in-person visits. So, when a kid went to go visit his dad, even if he was 20 yd away from him in. the prison waiting room, he had to use a. video terminal, which cost $12.99 for 20. minutes. And he was not allowed to see. his dad in person. So, so that's an example of, you know, and that's in the contract. It's in the. Securus contract. It said that they have.

to eliminate the in-person visits. So, when you allow that for-profit. motive to be driving things in these. like state institutions where. theoretically we should, you know, have. some kind of like moral approach that. makes sense for society or, you know, can help community or build our. relationships or help people stay in. touch with their loved ones when they're. incarcerated. Um when you add that. for-profit motive there, the system is. just designed to exploit. It just is.

natural that. all those people have to get, you know, they all have it's all there's a there's. a kind of a. a value to every visit. Every time a. visit, you know, every time a kid comes. and visits a parent, it's worth $12.99. Well, why do it for free if you can get. $12.99 for it? >> Is it one of the darker aspects of human. nature in regards to our relationship. with money? If that so many people, if.

unchecked, if you give them the. opportunity to make more money at the. expense of other people, they do it. >> Yep. >> They just do it. >> Yep. >> They do, especially in under the. framework of a corporation. The framework work of a corporation. allows you to have a diffusion of. responsibility because you don't think. that you're the one doing this horrible. thing. It's this thing that you work for. and I'm just doing my job. >> Yep. >> And also, if you're involved in a. corrupt system. and this is your job, and you think of.

these people as all good people that are. part of the corrupt system, it sort of. minimizes. the horrible feelings that you have. about that corruption. You just dismiss. it. >> I I really believe I've heard you talk. about diffusion of responsibility. before. I think it's it's uh. it's such a huge part of what drives all. this is that you have people who don't. really have to ask themselves the hard. question. Am I the person that's. exploiting somebody? Am I the person.

that's overcharging a mom? Am I the. person that's charging somebody a crazy. amount of money for their medication or. or allowing somebody to die from medical. neglect? Um because once you have a. corporation. and you look at that org chart you know, you could see the org chart is like, "Oh, that's a nice orderly way of. getting commerce to move forward." But. it's also a thousand points of. responsibility. Every one of those those. persons. just takes a tiny measure of.

responsibility. Well, I'm just I'm just. in the accounting department. I mean, I. you know, I don't I I don't make the. rules. I don't make the laws, you know, and you see that you know, in the health. care industry, people. recording their their calls with their. health care providers or their insurance. companies saying, "Oh, I'm sorry. I really can't answer. That's not my job. Somebody else made. that decision." And so, when you have. these massive organizations, there's a way for very bad things to. happen in and it's like the death of a. thousand cuts.

>> And it's also everybody's trying to. maximize profit. And when you're trying. to maximize profit. you just find some ways to justify. things. Like your your main job is not. to help people. These prisons aren't. rehabilitation centers. You're trying to. make like you you actually profit off. people becoming like. functional members of society once they. get released. That would be amazing. Then you'd have an incentive to make. people better people in prison. Like. imagine if their profit was based on. people being rehabilitated reentering.

society and becoming. you know, functional. proper members of society where they. contribute. >> Sure. Yeah, I mean, the incentives are. so they're so Yeah, they're so twisted. >> that saying money's the root of all. evil. It's not the root of all evil. It's a root of most of it though. It's. like a giant percentage of it. Maybe. it's 75% of evil. The rest of it's like. what? Lust? >> Yeah. I mean, my I guess money. >> Anger, jealousy. >> Yeah. >> But that's the root of a lot of evil. You know, whatever. Whatever the other.

percentage is, but money. 60% maybe? Let's be charitable. It's the. root of a lot of evil, man. It's. It's And when you can do it inside of. this framework of a corporation, it's so. twisted because it's ubiquitous. It. exists in almost all industries. There's. always whether it's the Like this is the. reason why people celebrated when that. healthcare executive was shot. >> Right. >> They were like, "Hey, man. you. guys." Like, "Yeah, finally one of you.

guys got it. I lost my dad. I lost my. mom. I lost my sister.". You know, that kind of. is in every industry. >> Yeah. >> Whether it's military industrial. complex, whether it's the health. insurance complex, whether it's the. pharmaceutical drug industry. When you. look at the Sackler family and what they. did with opioids. You I'm sure you've seen the Netflix the. Peterburg Netflix Painkiller. >> Yep. >> series. >> Yep. incredible. It's just incredible. that that guy's just walking around. You're responsible for the death of who.

knows how many people. Cuz who knows how. many. people that had relationships with the. people that got addicted also lost their. lives. Also lost everything because. you're dealing with a brother or a mom. that's completely lost and addicted. You've got your your life is hijacked. now by this situation. You've lost your dad. You've lost your. mom. You lost a spouse. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, you I I I've. heard you talk a lot about mental. health.

And obviously. problems and you know, that includes. social media. It includes sort of. alienation. It includes a lot of things. that are that are, you know, present in. society. But, the but the prison. >> [snorts]. >> industrial complex and the and the. experience of having somebody. incarcerated. has a huge impact on mental health. Um. they you know, I think people don't. realize when you have 2 million people.

locked up in these facilities and many. of them are just being traumatized every. day, whether they're seeing somebody get. killed or they're constantly in fear for. their life. The idea that those people. are going to somehow be okay when you. want to let them out 10 years later and. they're going to rejoin society. You. give them $50 and a bus ticket and you. say, "Hey, I hope you can become a. taxpayer." Meantime, they don't have. enough money to pay for one Red Roof Inn. for one night. They can't do anything. when they get out of prison and then we.

say, "Well, why why is there such high. recidivism?" I guess that means they're. bad people. So, let's put them back in, you know? So, the mental health. implications for the people that are. incarcerated are huge and the people who. are in their families, as you say, you. know? >> Right. Imagine the anxiety. You don't. have any family members and they're. going to give you $50. And now you're out. And you have to. figure out how to eat, how to get a roof. over your head, and try to figure out a. way to earn money. >> Yeah. >> with $50. >> Yeah. And there are ways to do it, you. know, there are there if you go into the.

I mean, all this sounds very dark and. horrible and it is, but there are a lot. of there are a lot of. of positive. developments that you can see when you. give them a chance to to grow in. society, you know? Um. so so for example, like I love what you say about about. community, you know, about the. importance of building community and. seeing the country as our community. And you know, if we're.

torturing people that are in our. community, if we're being cruel to. people that are in our community, what. does that say about us? >> Right. >> Um you know, what does it say about. about about Christianity? What does it. say about you know, about uh about God? What does it say about forgiveness? Um. and clearly. we see that there are. so many instances where people are. trying, you know, trying to do thing. better. There's a There's a woman um.

named Erica in Alabama who is a mental. health professional. And. she described to me what it was like to. try to give mental health services to. people who are incarcerated. And and I. was trying to figure out, you know, looking at these images of the places. that they keep people in these cells, these solitary cells with just a little. trace slot. And you know, they're in. there for. uh in a 5 by 8 room with no windows, and. they could be in there literally for. years.

Um and I said to her, "Well, can you. tell me like when you do a session with. somebody and you're trying to you know, talk to them about their suicidal. ideation or their various problems, you. know, how do What does that look like? How does that work?" And she goes, "Well, you know, it's a little It's a. little uncomfortable cuz I you know, I. got to be on my knees." And and I said, "Wait, why are you Why are you on your. knees?" She said, "Oh, well, I have to. be able to talk through the trace slot.". And I said, "So when you're giving a. mental health counseling session to. somebody who's incarcerated,

you're not allowed to open the door, you're not allowed to see assuming that. person's not like having a violent fit. or something like that, you're not allowed to sit down across. from them and have that conversation.". She said, "No, no, no, but it's okay. I. I just put my mouth up to the trace. slot." And I just thought, you know, when you think about the the idea that. that's going to be somehow something. that will give relief to somebody who's. really struggling with a mental health. crisis in prison, um you know, we're doing the absolute.

minimum. You know, we're checking the. box that says, "Yeah, once a month this. guy has a psychiatric evaluation." But. nobody's taking a picture of that and. showing what it really looks like to. have this nice, you know, young lady, this idealistic young uh mental health. person kneeling outside of a metal cell. with, you know, blood stains on it. talking to somebody inside. >> Through a food slot. >> Through a food slot. >> And that's probably the only interaction. this person has with human beings other. than the guards. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. >> are very cruel. >> Yeah. >> And you're alone in that cell, which is. also terrible for mental health. Like. there's nothing worse for mental health. than complete total isolation. >> Yeah. >> With no access to anything. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever had um. experiences with people, friends or or. family who've been incarcerated? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Quite a few. >> What's that been What What's that been. like? >> Well, I had this one friend that I used.

to do martial arts with when I was a. kid. And when I was. probably around 16, 16 or 17, he wound. up going to jail. I didn't know him that. well, but uh I knew him as this guy who. competed in tournaments and, you know, he would show up and train with us and. he's just pretty tough guy. He went into jail and he came out first. of all, much bigger. He was just like. stacked with muscle. All of his tattoos,

he burned off. So, he had scars, like. these big keloid scars over all of his. tattoos now. And he was a completely different. person. Like a violent animal. Like a terrifying. guy to spar with. If you spar with him, you were you were in a It wasn't There. was nothing no holding back. Sparring, for the most part, when you like people, you're hitting them only a certain. percentage of your strength. This guy.

was not doing any of that. He was full. blast with everything. It was like a a. caged animal. And. as I got to be closer to him, I actually. became closer to him after he got out of. prison than he was before. You know, because I just spent more time sparring. him and hanging out and training with. him and you know, being in these group. classes with him. He started telling me stories about what. it was like in jail and just fighting. for his life. He had to take on three. guys and he picked up a broomstick and.

he was beating these He was just telling. me these crazy stories of guys trying to. kill him in jail. You know, and he was. in there for 3 years for drug selling. Then he went right back to selling. drugs. And then um. he eventually got arrested and I've told. the story before, but it's kind of. crazy. They found a guy. that had every bone in his body broken. with hammers. And they kept him awake by injecting him. with cocaine. They kept injecting him.

with cocaine and then they cut his arms. off. They cut his hands off and then. they cut his head off. And they found. his body, but his like all of his bones. had been shattered and this guy that I. knew as a kid got arrested for that. Um they never wound up trying him for. that. They brought him in for. questioning. He definitely knew something about it. He knew either the people that did it or. knew something about it. It was all drug. related and he was selling cocaine. And then um I lost touch with him after. that.

>> That's a crazy story. >> Oh, yeah. I knew quite a few guys like. that. Cuz the world of um fighting, like. people that are interested in in in. entering in competitions with people, you get a lot of troubled people, a lot. of very angry people. You know, a lot of. them that come from violent households, they they beaten as children or they. were bullied as kids and depending on. where. I came from like um. the most mild of those environments. I.

didn't I didn't have anybody abusing me. I lived in the suburbs of Boston. I. lived in Newton, which is a really nice. neighborhood. >> Mhm. >> I just was interested in martial arts. and then I was fascinated by this idea. of bettering myself through competition. cuz it was so scary. And then all of a. sudden I'm around like. hit men. I knew one guy who was a hit. man for Whitey Bulger. And uh he I would. train him. I would teach this guy how to. do martial arts. And he was a an. assassin. >> That's amazing.

>> It was very strange. I knew a bunch of. organized crime figures. for mostly with the Irish mob. They a. lot of those guys came and trained. And. especially cuz they they knew some other. guys that we knew that were a couple of. one of my friends who was a box who was. a professional boxer and he lived in. South Boston. He was very tight with a. lot of these guys. So some of these guys. came to train with us and just. very weird exposure for me. I'd never. been around any of that. I'd never had. anyone in my family that went to jail. Never no one was a you know no one was a.

criminal. No one was a drug addict. No. there's nothing nothing really crazy. >> Yeah. >> And then all of a sudden I was around. a lot of these people that either. went to jail eventually or had been in. jail. Yeah. >> Cuz it's I I think there's that question. of. you know people say well if you if you. don't like the prison system the way it. is or if you don't think people should. get locked up forever then you know. you're just soft on crime and and. [snorts] you know obviously uh you know. you're some kind of uh snowflake and.

but uh clearly there's a role for. prison. There's a role. for jail. Um the question is whether we should be. putting people into institutions that. just further damage them, further. retraumatize them. >> Right. You're just making them hardened. They're they're going to be worse. criminals if they get out, if and when. they get out. >> Yeah. >> Um and there's no emphasis on. rehabilitation. So, that's the thing. It's like if you're releasing them back. into the street, like what are you doing. to the rest of society? If you're taking.

a person who's committed a violent. crime, making them way worse in jail, and then. releasing them. This is like a slow. bomb. You know, you it's slow-release. bomb. And then also they have no options. cuz no one wants to hire an ex-convict, especially someone who went to jail for. like aggravated assault or something. like that. So, it's it's a very, very difficult for. these people, and very, very difficult. for society to make a a decision. You. know, you want to make a quick fix of. something, you want to protect people, just keep them in jail. Keep everybody. in jail. But there's zero emphasis on.

how to take a person from a completely. broken childhood, broken home, violence, drug addiction in the home, all the. chaos, complete a custom completely being. accustomed to violent crime cuz it's all. around you, it's in your neighborhood. You imitate your atmosphere. And then what do we do with these. people? You know, there's no emphasis. whatsoever on it. It's just using them. as human batteries to generate money. And that's evil. That's what's really.

crazy. It's And this is where people. have subverted this idea of. incarceration being some sort of a. rehabilitation or correction. Like. right, they call them correctional. facilities. You're not correcting. anything. You're just making money. You're just making money off of people, and you're taking advantage of the fact. that no one wants to pay attention to it. cuz society generally looks at people. that are criminals and have committed. violent crimes as like, "Oh, well, them." Push them aside. And look, there's some people that I agree, yeah, them. If there's people that have,

you know, killed a bunch of people and. raped a bunch of people and they're. constantly robbing people and breaking. in houses or violent, yeah, those. people. those people. But that's a. small percentage of what's in jail. A. large percentage is non-violent drug. offenders, and that's where it gets. really weird. It's like, so a person is. deciding, you can have the drugs that we. sanction. You can have the drugs that we. tax. You can have these drugs. You can. have these prescription drugs. You can. have this drug that you buy in the. liquor store that we call alcohol, which.

is clearly a drug. You can buy your. cigarettes. You can buy your coffee. You. can get all these drugs that we like. Adderall, you need Adderall. And sure, I. think you have a little ADHD. Maybe you. should use some speed, and we'll. sell you that speed, and we'll tax that. speed. Anything else, we'll put you in a cage cuz you're not. following our rules. And it's like a grown adult telling. another grown adult what they can or. can't do with their life is responsible. for what? 50% of the people that are in.

cages? That's kind of crazy. It's almost time. for spring break, so maybe you're headed. to the beach, or maybe you're taking the. kids on a road trip, or maybe you're. just taking some extra time for. yourself. No matter what, you deserve a. break and a reset, and AG1 can help. AG1. is your daily health drink. Just one. scoop combines your multivitamin, pre-. and probiotics, superfoods, and. antioxidants to help support a healthy. immune system and digestion. Plus, it.

travels really well, so you can start. working it into your routine even when. you don't have a routine. Just slip a. few travel packs into your luggage and. have a nice flight. Uh I've talked about. 1 for a long time, and it's not just me. I know a lot of people enjoy it. It's. very easy. It's very convenient, and you. deserve to take care of your health. Visit drinkag1.com/joerogan, and for a limited time, get a bottle of. omega-3, vitamin D3, K2, and an AG1.

flavor sampler for free in your welcome. kit with your first subscription. That's. an $111. value at drinkag1.com/joerogan. >> Yeah. >> That's really crazy. >> Yeah, I mean there's um. this kind of illusion that everybody. that is in prison for uh something that. we don't think the the average person. doesn't think they should be in prison. for for many many many years, like a. drug crime or being an addict basically.

Um. that those people that that all those. people have been let out already. You. know, that somehow like prison activist. people have said, well, you know, all the people that are in. there for drug crimes should be should. be released. Um. but it's not it's not really true. You. have a enormous uh criminalization of. drug addiction. So, you're already making people sort of. feel hopeless, then they're turning to. drugs, and then you're putting them into.

cages. Um so, like Steve Marshall, for. example, the AG in Alabama. says, well, we've already released all. of the non-violent criminals, right? So, the only people that are locked in there. are the worst of the worst. But, you. know, they got. >> clearly not true just because of sales. from your documentary. >> Yeah, of course. So, you have, you know, when he was put into a a uh. maximum security facility for entering. an unoccupied building. That's because there's sort of an. inflation of this concept of violence.

So, they will, in Alabama, I think there. are 44 different crimes that are that. are considered violent crimes. And they. include crimes that you and I would not. consider violent. Um you know, so if. somebody threatens somebody verbally, like most people do in arguments with, you know, people that they're mad at or. whatever, but doesn't assault somebody, that could be considered a violent. crime. If somebody enters a a building. um whether they steal something or not, that could be considered a violent. crime. And so, it makes it easier just.

to, as you say, like I I like that image. of the battery. I I think about it as. like uh sometimes like the Matrix. That, you know, for Alabama to do what it's. doing, it's got to have 20,000 people in. suspended animation because that's how. you can use them for labor, that's how. you can use them to sell them stuff, that's how you can charge them for fees. and fines, you know, that that you need. that many people. >> I think they did a terrible thing when. they allowed private prisons. I think. it's a terrible thing.

I think e-. Like, if you think about the people that. founded this this country and the people. that wrote the Constitution, they had a. great understanding of where how tyranny. can emerge. And so, they tried to create. a system and again, 1776, crazy to think that we're still. following those same rules today. You. know, but they had a great understanding. >> Don't worry, we're not following. [clears throat] those rules. >> But, the checks and balances and make. sure that one person couldn't accumulate. all of the power.

Whoever. first initiated the policy of allowing. and paying for private prisons to exist. in this country did not think it through. like that at all. Did not think of. incentives, did not think of how people. always, when given the chance to make. more money, figure out a way to justify. making that more money and come up with. rules or regulations or carve outs, caveats, some reason why they can.

continue to accelerate. And then, you. don't think about the fact that. prison guard unions. and these private prisons, these people. that own them, actively work to keep. some laws on the books. that maybe the general public would not. want to be illegal anymore, certain. things. And they do that just so they. can keep the prisons full, so they can. keep making more money. >> Sure. >> So, then then And take the money that. they get from these private prisons. where they're using people as human. batteries to make sure there's still.

laws in place that are ridiculous so. that they can keep arresting people so. they can keep filling up their buildings. and making more and the fact that nobody. saw that coming. Nobody saw that coming. They they saw it. coming. >> I don't even know if they did. >> You know, I think they probably short. term were just saying, oh, this is a. good business. We'll get into it. Then. the business is like, we got to grow. this business. Just like everything. else. Like if you're selling tires, you. know, you got to make better tires, sell. more tires. We're trying to sell We have. We want to be number one in the tire. business. Well, they're trying to be.

number one in the human battery. business. >> Yeah. >> And that's what's insane about. allowing that in this country. And how. do you put that genie back in the. bottle? I don't know, but I I think it's. very sick. >> Well, the genie's figured out a way to. get into a whole new bottle be because. um. a lot of people say to us, well, this. film that you made, the Alabama. Solution, is obviously about Alabama. state prisons. Um are those private prisons? And we.

always say, no, those are state-run. institutions. But they kind of function. like private prisons in a way because. they're able to make deals with Securus. about their prison phone system and that. makes millions and millions and millions. of dollars that's extracted from the. poorest people in the country, right, who are being charged like high uh you. know, daily and and and even per minute. fees for being able to communicate with. their families. Um then you have.

companies who are selling the food to. the prisons. You have companies that are. doing health care contracts with the. prisons. And so there's so much money in. that that they sort of even though the. state owns that piece of land, it still. kind of functions the way that private. prisons function. >> Right. >> So we've sort of just given over the. care of 2 million Americans to companies. that are accountable. to their shareholders maybe, but the.

shareholders don't know. >> Well, they're certainly not accountable. to humane living conditions. That one. scene where Kinetic Justice Dutch What's. his real name? >> Robert Earl Council. >> When Robert Earl Council was in. solitary and you see the rats swimming. in his toilet? Rats are swimming in his toilet and he. has rats in a water jar and what does he. say? Like catches. >> 11 11 caught in one night. >> Yeah. >> And why are they there? Because, you. know, he tries to put his food in a bag. that hangs on the door of the cell, but.

then they write him a disciplinary for. doing that. But if he takes his food out. of the bag and he puts it on the. counter, then the rats are going to get. it during the night. >> They're just everywhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, there are rats all There. are rats throughout the prison. You know, and that's. >> he has to sleep in this room where these. rats are crawling all over him at night. >> Yeah. You know, and people just to get. into him for a second, I mean, he is he. is frankly one of the most one of the. bravest people I've ever met in my life.

You know, this is a guy who was. incarcerated when he was 19. And he was selling drugs in his. neighborhood. Um. somebody is trying to chase him down. with a car. and almost runs him over and he shoot. shoots the person through the window and. the guy dies. So, this is now 30 years. ago. Um in any other condition you [snorts]. would have thought that's a self-defense. case, right? That's That's. that that it was clear that he was. trying to prevent somebody from running.

him over with a car. And yet here he is. 30 years later with a life without. parole sentence in a Alabama prison. And. he's spending his time trying to. organize non-peace non-nonviolent. labor strikes. He's trying to do hunger. strikes. He's trying to use every. um. every method that he can use to call. attention to the problem that 20,000. other people have. And he's using a. contraband cell phone to talk to us, knowing that he's probably going to get.

retaliated against by the authorities. once film comes out or once they know. that he's organizing a labor strike. Um. He's he would be an. unbelievable. uh asset to society if he were out in. the world, right? He's he's advocating. for non-violence. He's obviously smart. as a whip. And he's incredibly. motivating to other people. You know, he's got that entire. prison system listening to him when they. want to be violent cuz they're so angry.

at their at the treatment. And and and. the prison system starts starts bird. feeding them, starts to cut off their. food rations to force them back to work. And Kinetic, Robert Earl, is the person. who says you know, that's not going to. solve anything. We don't want to do. that. So, you know, you see this huge level of. humanity, talent, thoughtfulness in. people that are locked away. And we just. assume, well, if they're in prison, that. means that they're bad people. And meantime, there's so many other.

people on the outside who don't get. locked up. uh. for doing things that are much worse. You know, so it's a it's a very. confusing message to be sending. >> Well, especially for someone you who did. the Jinx and then you do this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a good really good. point. You know, as I I worked for a. long time on the story of Robert Durst. And when we discovered evidence that. showed that he had killed uh his his. wife and his best friend and his. neighbor in Galveston, dismembered him.

Um we found the only evidence that. proved that he did those things. And. suddenly, I was in a dialogue with the. LA District Attorney, the LAPD, talking about how to get him arrested. You know, and and even if I don't. believe in the way that we incarcerate. people, it's clear that there's a role for. prison, and there's clearly a guy like. Bob Durst who keeps killing people. needs to be taken out of society. >> What kind of prison is he in? >> Well, he's he died now, and he was.

locked up in um in a facility in. Northern California. It was sort of a facility for senior. citizens who had medical problems. So, you know, a lot of really rich people, as you could tell from, you know, there've been a bunch of cases on this. Um really rich people hire uh. consultants to help them navigate what. prison they're going to end up going to. They can negotiate for better. conditions. Um and so, you end up, you know, with that sort of situation.

where a guy who maybe has stolen a. hundred million dollars and. and not paid his taxes or taken money. from his workers or. uh committed some horrible act of fraud, ends up in a in a prison farm, ends up. in a pretty nice facility where, you. know, he has access to. lots of things. Um and then you have. poor people that are locked up in places. that have rats in their cells and. vermin. Um but yeah, it was it was. I was always. sort of amazed that Robert Durst was.

able to get away with what he got away. with for so long. And uh Why do you think that is? >> Well, you you know, did you How much did. you know about it before you started the. documentary series? >> Well, I knew a lot because I had made a. film, a narrative film, called All Good. Things, about sort of Robert Durst's. origin story, his relationship with his. beautiful wife when they were both. young, and before all the bad stuff. started happening, and he became the guy.

that he became. Um there was this kind. of strange love story between this kind. of difficult man and this very lovely. girl, um, Kathleen McCormick, and. I made this film. Ryan Gosling played. the Bob Durst character, and Kirsten. Dunst played uh played his wife. And really investigated that story so. that we could tell that the the the tale. of what had happened to them in an. accurate way. And while I was doing. that,

um, we reached out to Robert Durst, to. the real Robert Durst, and I said, "You. know, we're making this film about" I. guess we spoke to his lawyer. "So, we're. making this film about you, about your. client, and uh we'd like to talk to him, to get his input, make sure that we're. trying to tell the story accurately.". >> the premise of the film? >> It was basically the story about him and. his wife when they first met, this rich. guy and this girl from sort of the other. side of the tracks, and then how. eventually that relationship got toxic, eventually he kills her, and then later.

his best friend, uh Susan Berman, who. knows about what happened to his wife, starts to become problematic, then he. kills her, and then later he moves to. Galveston, Texas, and disguises himself. as a deaf-mute woman, if you remember. this. And he ends up uh. becoming friends with his elderly. neighbor, and this guy named Morris Black, and. they go out shooting on in Pelican. Island, and so on. And eventually they.

have a little altercation because he. figured out who Bob Durst was and that. he was sort of on the run, and he. dismembers that man. He kills him and. dismembers him. >> This movie with Kirsten Dunst, when was. that released? >> Uh I guess we started working on that in. around 2005, and it came out in 2010. So, in 2010, it's about to come out in. theaters, this film, and there was a big. article in the New York Times about how. accurate it was and how much we had done. to,

you know, make sure that the details. were right and so on. And the real. Robert Durst uh reads the article and. calls me out of the blue. And you know, I've had tried to get in. touch with him before without any. success. And he actually calls the. distributor of the film first, Magnolia. Pictures, and he he asked for the the. president, uh Eamonn Bowles. And um. and and Eamonn's Eamonn and I. would use Bob's voice like when we would.

talk to each other because Bob had a. very. recognizable voice. So, when I would. call him, we would hang up and I would. say, "Bye-bye." And that was always sort. of Bob's tone. And then one day somebody. calls Eamonn's office and says, "This is. Robert Durst." And so his secretary. walks in the office and says like, you. know, in air quotes like, "It's Robert. Durst on the phone." thinking that it's. me. >> Mhm. >> And he picks up the phone, he's like, "Hey Bob, I you know, I'm not surprised. you're calling. I think we did a hell of. a job on the film.". And there's a long pause and he says, the guy says, "Who am I talking to?".

And Eamonn says, I Oh, "Who's this?" And. he says, "This is Robert Durst.". And so he reaches out to me. I knew that. he was trying to get trying to reach me. so I could record my very first phone. call with him. And I call him and I say, "Listen, I I'm I'm. keen to talk to you. I've been making. this film about you for the last 5. years." And he said, "Well, I would like. to see the film." So, I arranged for him. to see the film. And he calls me immediately after he.

sees the film and he says, "I want you. to know I like the movie very much.". >> [laughter]. >> The movie kind of shows him killing. three people, right? And I said, "Well, why did you like it?" And he said, "Well, uh you know, you did a beautiful job. explaining what I was going through as a. child and the difficulty I had in losing. my mother and Kirsten Dunst was just. like my my wife Kathy and I cried three. times. And I would like to do something with. you. You know, I would like there there.

to be something out there from me. My. ability to sort of tell my story. And I said, "All right, well, why don't. we sit down? I'll ask you a bunch of. questions." And he said, "That's fine. Okay, let's do that." So, I So, I end up. sitting with him for 3 days. I've just finished a movie about him, a. dramatic film, which is now in theaters. And I sit down with him uh and interview. him for 21 hours. And you think you do long interviews. He's He's 21 hours with this one person.

And he is uh fascinating. I mean, absolutely extraordinary. He's He He is. incredibly honest about things that most. people would never be honest about. >> Like. >> You know, he talks about how, you know, he had. uh. violent arguments with his wife, or he. says, you know, that he. He says crazy stuff. I mean, he would. explain to me that I said, "You know, I. think you were kind of offensive when. you went to visit her mother, you know, she had this. mother who was in her 80s.

And you went to visit her mother. And uh you know, I think you did some. odd things." He goes, "Well, yeah, you. know, I visited those people and they. were, you know, that woman, she reads. Yankee magazine. And And uh you know, I. And And she asked me how I liked her. daughter. And I told her that uh Kathy. had come out of the shower and my penis. was hard.". Like, you said that to her aging mother? Yeah, yeah, I mean, what am I going to. Yeah, sure. That's what I thought, you.

know. Uh you know, or I Or you say to. him, "Well, what did you say um. you know, why did you tell the police. that. uh after your wife after you put your. wife on the train, you went to the. neighbors to have a drink?" When that. clearly wasn't true. "Oh, yes, I lied. about that.". I said, "Well, why did you lie to the. police?" "Well, you know, I needed to be. somewhere, and I wanted them to stop. asking me questions. So, you know, I. told them that I went to the neighbors. I said, "Well, that was so easy to. disprove. They just talked to the. neighbor." Well, yeah, but you know, I.

don't people don't usually do that. So, he's very candid. He he he speaks. very very openly. Almost like having a. level of sort of Asperger's. >> Did you believe him in at any moment. while he's telling you this? Cuz. obviously he's proclaiming his. innocence, right? >> Yeah, I mean, he is. so good at telling. the story. his way and he tells you so many facts. that are true that when he occasionally.

lies about really critical things, um I think a lot of people just didn't. pay attention to that. I did because I'd. already researched the story. So, I knew. when he was trying to. tell me something that was that was. that that it was. Um but, you know, I did have to put. myself in a position of. of giving him the benefit of the doubt. whenever I could. Part partly because. that was the only you know, you got to. just get into that mode where you're. trying to hear his version.

without debating it the whole time. Right. Because otherwise he's not going. to tell you his version and you know, you want to hear his. um his theory about all this stuff and. and in the course of that. he really indicts himself. I mean, he. you know, he sort of came into it with. the attitude that he wanted to tell his. version of the story so people would. stop thinking he was a murderer. But, during the course of it, he admits. to so many bad things. uh that, you know, you just.

>> [snorts]. >> pretty quickly assume that he is guilty. >> How old is he when you first started. filming him? >> Um I guess he was in his. uh he was in his early 70s. >> So, he's probably already experiencing. some kind of cognitive decline. And then you have the years and years of. hiding all this, which wears on you. >> Yeah. Yeah, and I do think there was a I. think he had a compulsion to confess. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> I think most people that aren't complete. sociopaths, they they get to a certain.

point in time where it's almost too much. and they want to tell people. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean and that ultimately. what happened with him, as you as you. may remember, is he. we find this evidence. The evidence I thought was. determinative. I thought it was going to. be something that police would. ultimately use to convict him for. murder. But we. >> What was that evidence again? >> So there's a So so there was a famous. note that that the killer of Susan.

Berman, this friend of Bob Durst in. California, had left behind when he shot Susan. Berman. And the note said uh 1527 Benedict. Canyon, cadaver, and it was sent to the. Beverly Hills Police Department. And. that very seldom happens, but people. speculated a lot, well why would. somebody who killed somebody have sent a. note to the police? Well, maybe if he. liked the person, if it was his best. friend, this woman Susan Berman, and it.

was Bob Durst that did it, then maybe he. wouldn't want her body to lie there and, you know, she has dogs. She didn't want. the dogs to mess with the body. So, he. may have just killed her and then left. this note. But then later when he was. asked about it, he said, "I have no I. have no knowledge about that note.". So, when we're doing our investigation, we discover a a letter that he had. written to Susan Berman that has almost. the exact same words on it because it's. addressed to her at 1527 Benedict. Canyon. So, we can see the handwriting.

on that, not just a handwriting sample, but a handwriting sample that said. exactly what it said on the letter that. >> All right, with the same misspelled. words, right? >> Exactly. And he writes 1527 Benedict. Canyon, Beverly Hills, California, and. misspells the word Beverly. Puts in an. extra e at the end. And of course, this. letter that we find, he also misspells. the word Beverly. So, nobody had ever. seen or the police hadn't known about.

this letter. So, we find it, and then I. immediately start planning a way for me. to show it to him in a second interview. And he had always said to me like, "Oh, if you ever need me to sit down again, I'm happy to come back, and I'll ask. you, you know, I'll answer any question. you want." Um but I start to call him. about doing the second interview, and he. gets very skittish. And then this goes. on for 2 years. And so, we have this. evidence, but we need to show it to him. And I had had done a bunch of research.

I talked to Marcia Clark, for example, you know, who is smart about how the LA. District Attorney's Office works. And she said, "If you have the opportunity to sit down. with him and show him the evidence, do. that before you go to the police. Because it's going to be very The police. are not going to be able to do something. like that, and he's going to lawyer up. But you guys, before you're even in. contact with law enforcement, you could. show him the evidence, and he's going to. have to react to it, and I bet it's. going to be interesting." So, we finally. get him to sit for the second interview.

And I show him the evidence in the. interview, and he has this incredible. meltdown. You know, I don't know if you. remember this, but he's he starts. burping uncontrollably, and he starts. rubbing his face, and breathing, and and. he's obviously very, very surprised to. see that there's this that there's this. letter that matches the cadaver note. that he admitted could only have been. written by the killer. So, he's sort of. in a He's he's trapped. And. I finish the interview with him, and he.

gets up and goes to the bathroom, and he leaves his microphone attached, and while he's in the bathroom he. confesses to the murder. He's you know. he's a guy who talks to himself a lot. and he would always said that to me. He. said oh sometimes I talk to myself for. long periods of time and I get in fights. with people cuz they think that I'm. hassling them but it's just me. I just. talk to myself. So when he goes in the. in the bathroom the first thing he says. when he when he goes in is there it is. you're caught.

He says that to himself and it's. it it's it's and then he goes on to say. killed them all I killed them all of. course. And it's such a extraordinary. thing to have. >> headphones on while he was doing that? >> No and that's that's kind of. fascinating. So I didn't know that he. said anything when he went to the. bathroom. And so we're working with the LAPD. We're giving them the printed evidence. this the letter that matches the cadaver.

note and it's pretty strong case. already. Uh. and we don't know that he's. said a word in the bathroom and it's not. until. 26 months later. that we have an editor Shelby Siegel who. is just going through audio and kind of. cleaning up old tracks cuz we're getting. ready to deliver the film to HBO. And she sees on the the on the editing.

system that there's a little waveform. there's a little squiggle that shows. that there's some audio when he's in the. bathroom. So she the problem was that I. had a microphone there was a microphone. in the room and he had a microphone on. so there's a lot of noise. We're. finishing I just finished the interview. I'm incredibly excited that I got him to. give this crazy reaction and it's pretty. obvious that that's going to be you know. part of proving that he's guilty. And so. I'm out there kind of whispering to the. crew there's noise in the room and.

there's noise in the bathroom. And so, she mutes the other microphones. And she hears him say, "There it is. You're caught.". And she screams. And she runs in the. next room to where my. other our main editor was, Zach. And she says, "You have to hear this.". And he listens to it, and he says, "Wait. a minute. I was there that day. And we have audio that's a continuation. of that. That audio stops at at at.

"There it is. You're caught." But. there's He was in the bathroom for 7. minutes. So, they go and get the drive that has. the other 7 minutes of audio on it. And. it's this long rambling confession. Um. and I come over and I listen to it, and. I. I can't believe what we're hearing. I. mean, it was extraordinary. And I had to. call the LAPD and the LA District. Attorney and say, "Hey, I know literally. 2 days ago we gave you the the. documents. We gave you the letter so.

that you could start this prosecution. We found something else.". And so, they come to New York and they. listen to this confession, and it's. just, you know, absolutely mind-blowing. that that that that happened. And then. when the film come when the series comes. out, you know, we've been working with the. with the police then for a couple of. years while they were building the. prosecution. And when the film finally. comes out, uh when the series comes out. on HBO, he is arrested the day before the final.

episode. So, it's in the final episode. that he makes that confession, and they. arrest him right before. Cuz they knew. that he was going to go on the run. >> Was he aware that you have the audio of. the confession? >> I don't think he remembered saying. anything. You know, I don't think he's even all. that aware that he sometimes just. burbles out with these. >> Do you think he started I mean, this. pure speculation, but do you think he. started going crazy after he started. killing people? Just like. the ability to. shut that part of your brain off and.

put that aside and lie about it. Just the. the struggle. of having that information in your head. >> I think the way that he. would have thought about it, you know, from inside the. the killer, right? He doesn't think of. himself as a murderer, right? Steve. Marshall in Alabama doesn't think of. himself as, you know, this incredible. amoral person. He thinks of himself as. law enforcement, right? Bob Durst thinks.

of himself as just a guy trying to get. along, you know, like we all are. So, I. think what happened was in 1982, he and. his wife, who were having problems, in part, in large part because he had. big personality problems. I mean, he was. a he was not a. he was not an easy person to deal with. at all. And was also very spoiled and. was also, you know, had all these. resources and had a lot of Yeah, and he. had a lot of power over her. And so, I think something happened. between the two of them where they were.

at their lake house and. uh there was an altercation. He admitted. to me that they that they had had a. pushing and shoving argument that night. Um and. >> she died? >> Yeah. And. then he and then, you know, he says he. took her to the train and sent her into. the city, but none of that makes any. sense. So, I think what happened was. he either accidentally or. semi-accidentally killed her. I think. they had a fight, they ended up getting. into some altercation, and she landed on.

the. you know, maybe on the stone of the of. the fireplace or something like that, and she was dead. And then, he thought, "Well, it doesn't make any sense for two people. to go down. I mean, my unfortunate that. this had to happen, but I got to get rid. of the body.". And so, he found a way to make her. disappear. We don't know exactly what happened to. her, but we know that um you know, he. alleged that he had put her on the train. to go in the city and they never found. the body. So, after that.

he's sort of widely believed to be a. likely person to have killed his wife. There's no other explanation for it. >> And how long did it take before they. realized the wife was missing and when. did they determine that she was dead? >> It was a few days later because he kept. sort of. he held off on telling anyone and then. later he said, "Oh, Cathy, you know, she. I put her on the train to go in the city. and then I haven't heard from her. What's going on?" So, he had a bunch of. explanations about why, you know,

somehow she had. run off with a drug dealer or she had. run off with some boyfriend or something. like that, but none of those really held. water. But it took him a while to report her. missing. He waits 5 days to report her. missing. And does a brilliant thing, which is he. reports her missing in New York City. even though the last time she's ever. seen is in Westchester. So, they were at. their house, their lake house in. Westchester, she disappears. and he goes into the city 5 days later.

and he says, "Oh, my wife was at our. apartment." So, he complete This is why. I'm saying he's very smart. He. completely redirects the police so that. they make cuz you know, the police. aren't organized for a guy to come in. and give a phony story about what. happened to his wife. Most of the time. somebody comes in and says, "My wife is. missing." and they say, "Oh, where did. you last see her? Let's help you try to. find her." So, I think he was smart. enough to flip that on its head and he. says that my wife was in the city. And.

so, they do their whole investigation in. the city. They don't look at the lake. house. They don't figure out where she. really truly might have been. Um. >> Did they ever do an examination of like. a forensic on the lake house? >> Yeah, they did and they and they it was. sort of because it was so late in the. game, because it had taken so long for. him to report her missing, um they they. didn't find anything that showed that. she'd been killed in the. in the house. Um and she may very well. have been killed somewhere else, but.

they never find the body ever. And so her family is bereft and they. don't know what to do and. >> Did he ever confess to that? >> He didn't. Um. but. during the course of his interview with. me, I mean he never did it publicly, but. in but in the bathroom, he says, "Killed. them all, of course." So he's being. accused of three murders, his wife, his. best friend, and his neighbor in. Galveston, who he then cuts up. Uh and his confession in the bathroom.

is, "Killed them all, of course." So I. think we. you know, we I think we know what. happened. We don't know how it happened. >> Did they find his neighbor's body? Or. his best friend, brother? His friend's. friend? >> Yeah, his best friend's body was in her. house where somebody shot her and that's. where they left that cadaver note, the. note saying 1527 Benedict Canyon. And. then in Galveston, when his elderly. neighbor disappears, the reason they find this out is because. a a a a bunch of black trash bags wash.

up in Galveston Bay. and a little kid is fishing with his dad. and they see something bobbing around in. the water and they see these bags and. the police come and they look in the. bags and there are all these body parts. So he had actually taken off the legs. and the arms and. all that. So I mean I I think you know, I think it's fair to say that there are. people like Bob Durst who need to be out. of society, you know, and are and are. repeatedly causing problems for others. Um.

but that's the as you say, it's you. know, that's that's the extraordinarily. rare case, you. >> Yeah. >> And I think a lot of the sort of tough. on crime politicians will say, "So you. guys just want to let Jeffrey Dahmer out. on the street and like nobody thinks. that. Nobody really believes that. People are saying, well, no, what we're. saying is that people who are. in prison for having entered an. unoccupied building probably never. should have been in prison at all and. the people who are in prison with good. reason because they robbed somebody or. something, we don't necessarily have to.

believe that those people can never ever. have a chance to come out of prison and. be productive citizens. You know, there's a there's a you just. have to take a nuanced view. You know, you can't just say, well, they're bad. people and they're good people, especially cuz you've got so many bad. people walking around and so many good. people locked up and vice versa. >> Yeah, the nuanced part is so important. because. the real question is like what causes so. many people to become bad people and how. come no one's examining the root of. this? How come no one's looking at these.

deeply impoverished, crime-ridden. communities that have remained that way. for decades and decades and decades and. offered up some sort of a solution. You know, it's almost like. you have to financially incentivize a. company. to to radically improve the economic and. the justice situation in any. random community that's experiencing a. lot of crime. Like it's almost almost. like you have to figure out a way. to privatize peace and safety.

You know, it's [snorts] almost like the. the. the one way. >> [sighs]. >> I mean, it's really what I was saying. before like imagine if these prison. companies got paid based on the amount. of productive citizens emerge from their. prisons and then wind up doing really. well. Like you get incentivized. Like. this is he's never committed another. crime. Now he started his own business. He's doing this and that. He's got a. family. His kids all get straight A's. Everybody's happy. This is a success and.

we got a bonus because of that success. >> Yeah, I mean, you're right in a way that. it's. >> [clears throat]. >> It's the root of it. >> way, we are we're we sort of are. privatizing it because. like in my neighborhood in New York, um. there's a group called the Doe Fund, which has been around for a couple. decades, I think. And they take guys who. are. uh who are have had severe drug. addiction, have ended up in prison, and are released and have no starting.

place, as you were describing. And they give them a bed, they give them. a bank account where they give them a. certain amount of money each week for. working, and it's not a huge amount of money, but. it sort of is the first step toward even. being able to sort of have a checkbook. and be able to say, "Oh, okay, so I've. got $100 and I've spent 50 and this is. what I have left." Um and they give them. a job, which is they make deals with. neighborhoods around New York for them. to come and do like street cleaning and.

clean up the neighborhood. And they give. them a uniform, which is clean, and they. put them out on the street with a big. blue uh trash uh bucket and a and some, you know, functional. broom and things like that. And. sometimes they'll put them out in pairs. so that they have, you know, they they. can they can work in tandem. And these neighborhoods become. incredibly clean. The guys stay in this facility for as. long as they need to until they sort of. get back on their feet. They can't do.

drugs when they're in the facility. Um so there's a little bit of tough love. going on there, too. But they end up bringing people back. They end up bringing people back who. were otherwise abandoned and who. otherwise would have been additional. homeless people lying on the street in. San Francisco or additional people who. are, you know, bothering people outside an ATM or. whatever because there's a level of. desperation that you, you know, you have. We all know like if we absolutely had. absolutely nothing.

and we thought that our kids were going. to starve, we would do a bunch of things. that, you know, would probably get us in. trouble. >> 100% and. taking care of people that are in that. situation and providing them some sort. of a vehicle for improving their life is. going to be a good thing and it's going. to have some impact, but the real. real impact is going to be when you. address the environment in which they. came from. >> Sure. >> Like if again, if we're our community if.

we're this entire country is a. community, why do we have these places. that have been for 50, 60, 70. years? Like why haven't we put resources. into community centers and education and. providing some method for these people. to get peace and safety? Why why aren't. we doing something about that if we. really care? >> Well, there is a lot. that can be done. You know, one of the. places for example this can be done. inside and outside of of prison. obviously and and I think you're.

pointing out a really important thing, which is. the earlier the better. So, when you. look at you know, Head Start programs, which are one of the first things that. people go to cut because you can't put. your finger on exactly what they do, but. if you track people that got early. education you see that it dramatically. reduces the likelihood that those people. are going to go to prison later in life. Um and if you look at people who are. even in prison like in the main state.

prison system, which is a very humane. prison system. Um I have pictures uh uh. on my phone. of guys who are sitting at a bench. working on models of tall ships. These. beautiful, stunning pieces of art that. they've been trained by other prisoners. to to build and they give them a proper. work bench and they give them some uh uh. time to do this work and they give them. training. and then they sell that stuff in the. prison store and they make a couple.

million dollars a year that goes back. into rehabilitation programs. >> Oh, wow. >> So, where people. >> one of the best places for that? >> I think Maine is the best prisons as. I've seen in the US. Um and partly it's. cuz it's run by this very brilliant guy, Randy Liberty is his name. >> That's crazy. >> And he first. >> [laughter]. >> he first went to he first visited the. Maine State Prison. when he was 14 cuz his dad was locked up. there. And later in life, you know, he became a. sheriff and I think his dad was in his.

jail at some point and it was like, "Randy, get me a coffee." Yeah, "Sorry, Dad.". >> That's crazy. >> but over time he just said, "Well, why. are we throwing people away when we put. them into prison for having made a. mistake of some kind or even a series of. mistakes?". >> Yeah. >> You know, what can we do to bring these. people out because 95% of people are. coming out. Um and, you know, are these. people that we want to be our neighbors, you know? >> Yeah. >> And that that's that that this issue of. community is so important because. you know, how are we going to get back. to some kind of brotherhood in this.

country? You know, it's so important and. if we can demonize people so quickly and. just say, "Well, look, my neighbor, you. know, he put his tractor on my lawn and. therefore he's a horrible person and I'm. going to go over and smash his tractor. and I you know, as opposed to the guy. saying, "Oh, I couldn't put my tractor. in my garage cuz it had a flood." "Oh, you had a flood? Let me help you.". You know, that it's it's that there's a. level of of, you know, rage right now. that we're tapping into. It seems like a. higher percentage of the people are like. the martial arts people that are going.

into it because of. damage that they suffered. It's like. more Americans are becoming like that. You know, more Americans are sort of. >> Well, we're getting radicalized by the. internet, for sure. 100% on both sides of the aisle. People. are being radicalized by hate and anger. and frustration online. And a lot of it isn't even real people. that are writing these things, or it's. state actors and organizations that push. certain narratives, and you're being fed a lot of hate porn.

And people are sucking it up, and it's. highly addictive. So, it's consuming an. enormous percentage of your available. resources in terms of your attention. span. The people that I know that are addicted. to Twitter, X, whatever, are like genuinely mentally. ill. Like, whether they realize it or. not, cuz they're still functional, they. still do their jobs, but they are fully. addicted to a thing that is just people.

bitching back and forth with each other. And they check responses all the time, they can't wait to type in another. response, and they're sitting there. looking at someone else's response and. getting angry. It's illness. It's an illness. It's. like, this is not in your life. Like, if. you put that down and look around, what. do you see? You see the people that you. know. You see the neighborhood that you. live in. The stores that you visit. And none of. that exists. It exists in this weird. cloud world that you choose to.

enter to get upset. for no reason. And if you put it down, you will feel. better. But yet you think you're missing out on. something. So, you have to go check it. And when you're on the toilet, well, I'm. on the toilet, what am I going to do? Let me check to see what people are. pissed off at. And I well, I don't. agree with that. I don't well, this guy's an idiot. And then you're. mentally ill. And then it's it becomes. because we have this bizarre. political system in our country where we. have two sides, only two. We only have. two perspectives, you know? And then you.

have a conglomeration of ideas that are. attached to each perspective. [clears throat]. that you might not agree with at all, but you have to because you're a. right-wing this or a left-wing that. And. so, you have to. say whatever the party wants you. to say, and if you don't, you're a Nazi, or if you don't, you're whatever you. are, a communist, whatever it is. And. >> I loved your when in your comedy. special, which was so funny. And and you know, I'm like a big fan of. comedy. But in your last special, you.

sort of talk about how people like sign. up for Oh yeah, well, I you know, I. agree with that. That makes perfect. sense. Oh yeah, I agree with that. Oh, and by the way, if you're going to agree. with that, you know, you're also going. to have to agree that uh you know, that. >> men can get pregnant. >> Yeah, exactly. That men can get. pregnant. You're like, What? Wait, so that Those are my. choices? I have to go along with like, you know, it trans people should be. allowed to be in every sport, and it. doesn't matter what. I like I have to go along with that one, too, if I want to be part of my tribe? Yo, yeah, that's part of the tribal. initiation ritual. You're going to have.

to sign up for that. I think it's a really great way of. delivering it, also, cuz cuz it makes. people laugh at themselves. >> team. Yeah, and everybody wants to be on. a team. >> Yeah. >> And you're like, you know, oh, we. believe that everybody should, you know, be free to do whatever you want, and as. long as you're not hurting anybody. I. agree, you know. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. >> You start going along with it. This. sounds great. Hey, I'm with you guys. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And you're like, oh, >> That's right. >> a package deal? I have to. >> Yeah, and that's what people are. agreeing to, and then you get group.

think, and then you get also. ostracization, you get ostracized from. the community if you don't do it. So, you you know, you get kicked out of the. kingdom. And you don't want that. >> Yeah. >> Cuz being excommunicated from whatever. group that you identify with is. terrifying, cuz then what are you going. to do? You're going to join the. Nazis? I'm going to join those people on. the right, because the left kicked me. out cuz I don't think that men can get. pregnant? Maybe I should just apologize. Maybe And. then you wind up apologizing for. something you don't even believe in.

You're like, God, I can't believe I have. to say this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know, and it's just it's a bad. way of communicating. It's online. communication is a terrible way of. communicating. And it's the primary source that young. people experience. You know, young. people, like my kids, they don't even. text each other. They Snapchat. You know, they're all Snapchating with. pictures and I'm like, you this is. like the minimal amount of communication. you can do. And when they have to talk to people,

just put their phone down and talk to. people, they're lost. They're always. like reaching for their phone. >> Oh, yeah. >> want to grab their phone in the middle. of you talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have to check like it's. like you're perpetually distracted. >> Yeah, yeah, it's going to get worse, I. think, when you have like glasses and. you could be walking down the street or. you can meet somebody and be like, "Hi. Joe. So, when you went to college at". and then you learned you know, it's like. there there this idea that the. information is more available and. therefore it's better. And my kids are.

like constantly deleting Instagram or. deleting TikTok. >> Yeah, a lot of kids are doing that now. >> Yeah, but you know, and then it comes. back for some reason or they'll say, "Well, I felt like I needed to do this. or whatever." But. >> FOMO. >> But it's very encouraging to see them. recognize that you like you have to go. cold turkey on [clears throat] the. social media. >> Well, that narrative's out there. Fortunately for a lot of kids, Twitter, which I think is maybe the most toxic in. terms of what it can do, most beneficial.

in terms of like whistleblowers, getting. news. Like if anything's happening in. the world, I almost immediately go to. Twitter. It used to be a little better for that. because now part of the problem is with. AI-generated content. There's a lot of. weird stuff when it comes to like. especially war stuff. There's a lot of. videos that are just completely fake and. it's hard to tell. Or they take a video. that is real and highly exaggerated and. they add AI to it. It's it's very.

strange. And then you got you got to. wonder like who's doing that and why. they're doing this. Is this the our. government doing it? Is it the Iranian. government? Who's Who's Who's. releasing these fake videos? >> And are we doing it to ourselves, by the. way? >> 100%. But a lot of people are doing that. just for clicks, because there is an. actual economy based on engagement. So, you can make money if you're, you know, if you're putting up these posts and. these posts are getting millions and. millions of interactions, you're going. to get more money. And so, there's a lot. of people doing that. So, it used to be. better because it was used to be just.

pure information and if it was a video, it was just a video that someone took on. their cell phone, generally. Now, it's like a lot of weirdo stuff. A. lot of weird fake stuff. So, it's hard. >> Also, there was a there was a piece in. the paper today that talked about how. like Trump gets a. a like a few minute video every day. that's a compilation of all the attacks. and all the explosions that have. happened in in Iran. You know, but he's not getting a more. nuanced picture of it. So, to some.

extent, he's kind of, you know, drinking. his own Kool-Aid because. >> know what he gets? >> I think that that there was a enough of. a leak to say that he was given a that. each day he's given a chunk of video to. watch. And that I think historically has. been something that happens with him is. he'd rather watch it than read it, right? And that that by putting together. just It's not even that they're saying. they're fake videos. I mean, obviously. there are a lot of fake videos. >> But he's only getting the positive. videos. >> He's just getting explosions. >> Right. >> He's just getting a lot of pictures of. explosions. So, he's saying, you know,

we're destroying their There you go. >> Here it is. Inside Trump's daily video. montage briefing on the Iran war. This. is NBC News. The montage typically runs. for about 2 minutes. Has That's enough. time. It should give you a nuanced perspective. on a international war. Has. raised concerns amongst those of the. president's allies that he may not be. receiving the complete picture of the. war. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, of course he's not. >> Yeah. >> Uh and of course, the people that. tricked him into doing this in the first.

place don't want him to get a full. nuanced perspective of the war. I mean, nobody thinks it's a good idea. >> Yeah. >> And the people who do videos are a. series of clips of stuff blowing up. >> Hilarious. That's the world we're living. in. It's a Tik Tok president. I mean, or. a Tik Tok uh briefing. >> Yeah. >> for the president. >> but video I mean, what we saw in. Alabama, and I know you have some some. clips of this, and I think it. if if you feel like running one, there's. the level of um.

uh depravity that's going on in our. prison system is so much higher than the. average person thinks it is. And one of. the reasons why we've seen so much. outrage from people, finally millions of. people have seen The Alabama Solution. cuz people have HBO or they have watched. it in a theater. And it's the first time they've been. able to see inside. It's the first time. they've been able to really see it as. opposed to reading a statistic about a. lot of people dying in prison or. whatever. And I think it does tap into. our sense of humanity, and it taps into. our sense of community, and the feeling.

that like, I don't want to be a part of. that. I I I I don't want to be part of. the doing that to other people. You. know, I could be tough on crime. You. know, we've shown the film to a lot of. conservative viewers uh including one of. the founders of CPAC and various people. who are, you know, pretty pretty. right-wing people and have said, "Look, I might be tough on crime. That's not. what I'm talking about.". >> Right. >> That's that's a human rights crisis. And. where is the DOJ, and where is the. government doing anything to protect?

>> Where are the inspectors? >> Yeah. >> How are they allowing any of that? >> Yeah. You know. >> Well, that's the the one of the great. things about your documentary is it's. clear. I mean, it is there's no. ambiguity at all. It's like laid out. there. full color. You could see the blood on. the ground. You could see I mean, it's. horrific. When Kinetic Justice, when. that guy is beaten in his cell, and you. see how they dragged him out face his. face down bleeding all They thought he.

was dead, and he he managed to live. And. he's being dragged out, and you're. following the blood trail from his cell. with the contraband cameras from the. cell phones. And had those cell phone cameras not. existed, you'd have zero idea. Like if. those guards only decided to sell money. bringing drugs in and not not phones. with cameras. who knows what you would know. You would.

know very little. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it does I mean. you know, I would like to believe that. the average American. does not want to harm the average other. American, you know, and even if you get. hyped up on Twitter or you get to see, you know, too many. videos of people blowing up stuff or. whatever. that ultimately people have that. experience of saying you know, I went to. that like. coffee at the. church and I sat there with that guy who. I really can't stand. And you know, we. we ended up having a conversation. You.

know, people are are they're kind of. amazed at how much commonality they can. feel with people where if they just see. the person We all know like if you text. somebody. >> [clears throat]. >> your kids or your wife or whatever. there's just some places where texts are. not good. It's not enough. It's not. enough. It's going to make somebody's. feelings hurt, you know. But when you get to sit down across from. somebody. you realize that. it's another person you can kind of.

relate to. So it's really disturbing that that. whether social media or just the. demonization of people. the way that we just turn people into. these one-dimensional figures and then. we can just rage at them and just hate. them. >> And distract yourself from your own. problems. That's a big part of it. People love something that takes the. focus away from whatever shortcomings. they have or whatever things in their. life they don't like, they'll focus on. external things. I know some people. whose lives are completely up in.

so many ways. Their health is up, their relationships are up, their. job is up, and all they want to. talk about is politics. Like, "Hey, man, clean up your backyard. Like, clean up. your life. Like, why are you spending so. much time paying attention to what's. going on with US aid? Like, how much. does that affect you? Does it? Does it. really affect you that much? All this. fraud." Right, but what about. your life, man? Your life is a. disaster. And all you care about is the.

government. You know, and what they're doing to. the people over. Like, I don't think. that's really the problem. I think you. you're getting in your own way, son. You know, and that's a lot of people out. there in this world. And anything that you can do to distract. yourself, whether it's start drinking, gamble, get on pills, whatever it is. People find ways to distract themselves. from whatever is wrong with their life, and that's part of what social media's. providing you. It's providing this. alternative avenue for your attention to.

divert you from all the things that. really are making your life a. disaster. >> Yeah. Yeah, there's also that. I think sort of. nuance falls into that also because. people are made calm by the idea that. they can just identify problems and that. they're simple. >> Mhm. So, if you say to somebody, "Hey, like locking people up for 75 years. probably doesn't make a lot of sense.". That's complicated. Wait, now I got to. make a determination of what's the right.

thing to do with another person. And, you know, so you end up with a lot of. politicians who say, "Well, I know. This. is these the bad people, these the good. people. We got to promote the good. people and get rid of the bad people.". Not recognizing that like everybody is a. a of both and that some people certainly. do a lot more bad stuff in the world. than good stuff and vice versa. But, you. have to see yourself, you know, as. you're describing, like you have to. recognize what's happening in your. backyard in order for the community to. work. You can't say, "Well, look, I'm.

always right, my neighbor's always. wrong, and therefore, I'm just going to. keep raging over this." You have to say, like, you know, I could see myself doing. something. I could see myself, boy, if I. really got out of hand, I could see. myself. having a, you know, taking a swing at. somebody, and that's probably not a good. thing, but I don't want to say that. somebody else that did it is. automatically. just a horrible person. >> Right. >> And that's why, you know, if you see. this this attorney general in in. Alabama,

you know, this idea that, you know, he. says there are these horrible people in. the world, people who have no respect. for human life, and yet he's presiding over 1,500 of. them dying, but he doesn't imagine that. he's part of the problem, you know, and. it's. >> Respect for human life while human life. is dying in these places where people. are taken if they show no respect for. human life, and they're being killed by. the people who are watching over them. >> Yeah. So, it's a very topsy-turvy. >> Yeah, like, what? >> you know. And also, cruelty plays a part. in it. We, you know,

we know that if you Sometimes we say. about this film that that, you know, it's about what we do to each other when. no one's watching. Like, you know, all human beings have a. little bit of a propensity to want to. put a firecracker in a frog's mouth and. just see what happens. You know, there's. a level of cruelty. that I think we have intrinsically. >> Certainly once you other a person. Right? >> Absolutely. And and I that's to some. extent why. when it's exposed, right? When there's.

transparency, when the press is allowed. to report on what's happening inside. prisons, people kind of get a conscience because. they start realizing, "Yeah, I wouldn't. want to do that in front of my kid, or I. wouldn't want to do that if it ends up. in the paper. I wouldn't want to, you. know. And I think that is kind of a balancing. effect, which is one of the reasons why. this like war on, you know, on on transparency is a it's a huge. problem, right? We're not allowed to see. what's happening in prisons even though. we're paying for them. >> Right.

>> You know, and the Supreme Court had this. ruling that said that uh wardens could. uh deny access to journalists simply by. citing safety and security. But. meantime, the last 20 years, no. journalist has been harmed inside a. prison. So, who's all the secrecy. keeping safe? >> Right. >> Right? It's It's It's we're we're sort. of perpetuating a system. Our job going into the Alabama state. prison system was to shine a light on. that. It shouldn't be that these guys. who are incarcerated have to take life.

and death risks using contraband cell. phones to show what's happening in. institutions that I'm paying for and. you're paying for. >> Right. >> those We're We're spending, you know, 116 billion dollars a year in the United. States on prisons, jails, parole. That is an insane number, and. if we're spending that much money, we. should sort of know what every one of. those dollars is going to, and we should. have watchdogs who will say, "Hey, guess. what? In Alabama, they're supposed to be. paying for a drug treatment program. We.

don't know where the money's going.". >> Right. >> Yeah, transparency is always good, especially in something like that. I. mean, it it to me, the idea of. preventing journalists from It It It. almost is akin to these ag-gag laws that. they've slapped in states that have. factory farming to prevent people from. filming the horrific treatment of some. of these animals because they would be. bad for business. You know, it's just crazy. Like, it should be bad for business, and. people shouldn't tolerate it. They.

should take their business elsewhere, which is what transparency is all about. You don't want to buy chickens from a. place that brutally beats their chickens. or pigs or whatever it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean that and a. lot of people say, "Oh, well, you know, it's going to upset it's we don't need. to upset the public." Well, what are you. doing something. uh uh for inside a slaughterhouse that. would upset the public? Like there ways. to to if you want to euthanize an animal. or something like that there ways to do. it where you're not using like a bolt. and smashing their skull with it.

>> Well, the bolt is actually the most. humane way. Kind of instantaneously. kills them. >> All right. No, no. >> The other way is when they hang them by. their ankles and slit their neck. That's. a little rougher, but that's if you want. kosher. There's a lot of weird ways that they. kill animals, but it's really the. beating and it's the horrific torture. that the cruel people that work there. sometimes do cuz there's been some. videos that have been released of people. like beating animals with crowbars and. stuff for no reason. Just Just. sadic sadistic sick people that just.

happen to work in these places. They. become [clears throat] very accustomed. to treating these animals badly just. like security guards become very. accustomed to treating prisoners badly. >> It's the kind of bingo on the same. lines. >> I totally I totally agree. And And you. just imagine what would happen. if. you know, what if if Tyson Foods or any. of these companies just the policy was. just if the press wants to come in and. photograph and the press wants to come. in and write about it, they're allowed. to come in once a week or whatever and. just do whatever they want.

>> Well, it should be non-negotiable. It. should be a part of the ability to run a. facility like that because of the. consequences. Because if you don't do. that, there is the potential for you. being a horrific abuser of animals. >> Of course. >> And nobody wants to buy your chicken or. your pork or whatever it is if you're. doing that. And we should know. >> But like criminalizing. taking video. >> Crazy. >> of animals being abused. >> Crazy. >> Like how could you justify that, you. know? >> You would only do it if you value profit. over ethics.

Over morals. It's the only thing. If if. profit is more important than educating. people on the horrific nature of how. these animals are treated. It's more. important to you Well, it's really. important is we have cheap bacon. >> Okay. Yeah, but it is a big It's like a big. tapestry cuz the diffusion of. responsibility figures into it. Right. And, you know, the perverting effect of. money figures into it. But, it's a very um. >> I mean, I think there's just being. accustomed to horrors.

You know, I I knew a guy worked at a. slaughterhouse. And, he told me like you. never get the smell of blood off of you. And, he goes, "And, you never get just. like the I the the image of animals. dying." He goes, "You got to understand. like if you're working a slaughterhouse, you're seeing who knows how many. thousands of cows die a week. Just. thousands. Just thousands of death, constant death.". Most farmers. never saw that. Like, the way people.

used to raise animals for for food, you. know, you would kill a cow, and you. would eat it for 6 months. You know what. I mean? Like, you would you could kill. the occasional chicken. You you weren't. seeing thousands of dead animals a week. You weren't like seeing thousands of. them get disemboweled a week. It's like. after a while like And, you're in a. factory, they're going by on hooks on a. conveyor belt. Like, what are we doing? This is. >> I went to visit a a prison. We I I went.

sort of on a series of prison visits in. Berlin and Norway and a few other. places. And, I was there with this sort. of elderly woman that that was like a. deputy commissioner, I think, in North. Carolina in the prison system. Uh Virginia, Ginny. And, I I loved her. She was so smart. And, the first thing. they do is they bring you to. concentration camp. So, they bring you. to Sachsenhausen. before they take you to the prisons to.

see how the prisons are run. And we're. standing there in this concentration. camp with the guide, and the woman says, "Well, this is where they would bring in. the people on the trains, and then they. would take them out, and then this is. where they would, you know, shave their. heads, and then they would strip them. down, and they would spray them with. fire hoses and water, and then they. would put powder disinfectant powder on. them, they would take away all of their, you know, any kind of distinguishing. marks that put them all in the same.

outfit, and they would give them a. number instead of their name, they would. be, you know, And everybody's sort of looking at it. like very disturbed, and Jenny leans. over to me, and she says, "You know, Andrew, we do every one of. those things in our prisons today.". And you realize that this. dehumanization, this homogenization, this like making everybody look the same. is part of just desensitizing us to what. we're going to do to those people, cuz. they just look like they're look like.

bad people, cuz, you know, that's what. happens when you shave your head and. you're pale, and you have the same. outfit, and you look like a convict. >> You've turned them into an other. >> Yeah, you've turned them into an other. >> of the tribal nature of ancient human. civilization, we have almost like a. deep-seated DNA that allows us to other. people, because those people were. coming, and they were going to kill your. tribal members and steal your resources, and do whatever they could to the. survivors, and they it was all horrific.

And so, we have this thing that we're. able to do that allows us to attack or. to go after people, and just to not. think of them as your brothers and. sisters and neighbors and fellow human. beings sharing this wonderful spinning. ball. No, these are evil people. These. are others. You kill them. These are. fill in the blank. These are the. Japanese. These are the Germans, these. are the this, these are the that. Whatever it is that we're at war with, those are the people that are not us, and we kill them. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And that's how you feel about prisoners. And then there's the other side where. you go too far the other way, and you. have these crazy no cash bail policies. where you've got violent offenders in. and out of jail constantly. You've got. people that have been arrested 40 times, pushing old people in front of the train. in New York City. You've got people that. are just like mentally ill, violent. criminals punching women on the street. in Seattle, and they just keep getting. out of jail, and you go, how is this.

possible? How is this okay, too? >> Yeah. >> And that's not good, either. >> Yeah, you can't it's but I think to the. extent to to. to the extent to which we could get. everybody, which only's going to happen in little. bits and little areas where we can make. an impact, but we're trying, to say, well, look, it shouldn't be, you know, it's it's it shouldn't be that everybody. who says that we shouldn't be running. our prison industrial complex the way we.

are, is soft on crime. It's okay to be tough. on crime. It's okay to recognize that. some people need to be separated out. from society. The. but but if you if it becomes so. polarized, then you got that progressive. DA who, you know, there's a there some. very smart ones, and then you get some. who are just saying, well, you know, we. just should abolish prisons, and. therefore, you know, we don't need any. of this, and that scares everybody. Um and probably doesn't lead to any.

level, cuz we all want public safety. Like everybody wants to be serious about. public safety. That's different than. being tough on crime, you know? >> Well, it's also like, if you're not. addressing the root of crime, if you're. not addressing the the again, the same. neighborhoods where it happens over and. over and over. You know, this is you. don't have like this rampant crime. that's developing in Beverly Hills, right? It's all happening in these. impoverished gang-infested. neighborhoods. Like, why has there been. no resources put into that? Imagine.

the amount of return that you would get. Like, I always say if you want to make. America great again, here's the best. way: have less losers. How do you have. less losers? Give more people an. opportunity to succeed. Well, when it's. it's not like we're all at the same. starting block. We all know that. No one. will say that. No one will say everybody. is at the same line, and how you get by. in this life is depending upon how much. work you put in once you're at the line. Well, that's not true. So, how do we. figure out these people that are at the.

farthest end of the starting line? The. most. Put some money into that. Fix that. Put. some engineering into that. Put some. like some actual thought in. trying to devise some sort of a method. to increase the odds of having more. productive people come out of these. places and give them hope. And you would. have better neighbors. You'd have more. people that are thriving in whatever. business, more people that are artists,

more people in the economy. The world. would be a better place. Like, why. wouldn't you invest in that? Well, because. there's no money in it. You have to. spend money on it. >> Yeah, I mean, there's or there's money. in it, but the but nobody really wants. to to to do the work to figure out how. to do it. >> in it, but you can't make that money. They're going to make that money, right? You're going to help people make money, and it'll contribute to the GDP, it'll. contribute to the tax base, to the. overall economy, but it's not a business. where you can like say, "Oh, if I get. into that business of helping people, I.

can get rich.". And that's the problem. >> Yeah, I mean, if you try to make the if. every if the if the if the, you know, the ultimate. uh adjudicator of everything is whether. it is turning a profit, you know, you. sort of a race to the bottom, right? Everybody's sort of Nobody really wants. to do anything smart. They just want to. do things that enable them to get the. most money the quickest. But ultimately, right now, spending 116.

billion dollars a year on our prison. system, you know, we've got. 5% of the world's population, we've got. 20 25% of the world's prisoners. >> Crazy. >> Like this whole thing. >> What a wild statement. >> Yeah, it's incredible. >> That's a broken society. Like if that's not evidence of a broken. society, look, not like it's better. in some of these other places that don't. have a high percentage of people cuz. they just kill them. Like there's a lot. of places where you do something bad, they just kill you. There's no thinking.

about, you know, >> But I mean in terms of like modern. civilized society, you know, we don't do. this well. >> No, we don't rehabilitate well, that's. for damn sure. >> Yeah, we don't as you're saying, we. don't invest in kids, we don't, you. know, like how are we How are we in a. situation where we are. paying teachers so little money that. they have to use their own money to buy. books and school supplies. We're beating the out of our.

teachers who are the people that are. going to turn our kids into part of our. community. How can we be surprised we don't have a. community? >> Yeah, it's almost like it's a. conspiracy. I mean, that's you you. realize why people slap that tin foil. hat on and tighten it down with a chin. because like at a certain point I'm. like, why wouldn't we put more money. into schools? It seems kind of crazy. When you've got like in California, they've got programs that like spend. hundreds of billions of dollars and go. nowhere. Like where Where did you. Where's the railroad? You spend so much.

money, where's the Where's all the tiny. houses? Didn't you guys get hundreds of. millions of dollars for tiny Where the. is the tiny houses? No tiny houses? It's like not a one tiny house has been. built, but it. There's a lot of that stuff. The 24. billion to the homeless. The homeless. people increased. Like, imagine if they. put 24 billion into the education. system. Guess what? You would probably. ultimately wind up with less homeless. If you put 24 billion into education and. community centers, God. Imagine the work. that you could do in California with 24.

billion dollars just in education. California would have one of the. greatest education system in the. country. If you just paid teachers an. exorbitant amount of month, had fanta-. amount of year, had fantastic oversight, these incredibly well-structured. education systems, great counseling, social workers that can help work with. kids, people that could give them. productive ways to expel some of this. excess energy that they have, figure out. how to focus, figure out like what kind of jobs they.

may be excel at based on their. personality type, educate them towards. that. You would You could get a lot done. You. could get so much done with 24 billion. dollars. Instead, it just. it just disappears like Keyser Söze. There's No one knows where it. went. There's no accountability. They. veto. Everybody tries to put an audit on. it. >> Yep. >> Right. How did How How did Alabama's. prisons go from $300 million to. 1.3 billion and they described it as.

inflation? >> no one's like No one's investigated. No. one's going to jail. No one like. you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean there's a and there. I think that [clears throat]. when you say it's a conspiracy, I really believe that, you know, conspiracies do not have to include. people in dark back rooms, right? It's. very often just everybody sitting around. the table, everybody knows what the. motivation is, and they just go, "Okay, yeah, I'll do the thing. You do the. thing." There's not it Nobody has to be.

rubbing their hands together and having. secret meetings. They all know what's in. their financial interest. >> Well, clearly if you beat prisoners to. death and then lie about it and you all. agree that you're going to lie about, you're conspiring. Right? >> Yeah. I mean that's that happens. obviously all the time. There are. meetings like that all the time. But I. think there's an insidious element to. the fact that um. you know, that people are agreeing that. $24 billion should be spent on X Y or Z.

Nobody really needs to get like a secret. memo saying how they're going to steal. that money. Like they just go, "Oh, okay. In Alabama, what now? We're. allowed to spend $1.3 billion on one. prison? Great. Okay. Well, I I'm not personally. taking the $1.3, you know, I'm not. personally taking the billion-dollar. overage myself, but you know, it's going. into the system the way that's you know, that's an overage. >> flag is they start construction before. the deal's even signed. They already start. So, the fix is in. They know what's going on. Look, I grew.

up in Boston and Boston was a part of. the most construc- corrupt construction. site in the history of the country, the. Big Dig. >> Big Dig, right? >> That thing was supposed to take. like, I don't know how long it was. supposed to take, but it went on long. after I moved out and then came back to. Boston like 10 years later. It was still. going on. I'm like, "This is crazy.". >> Yeah. >> And by the time it did it, the. population in Boston increased, so it. didn't even really alleviate traffic. >> Yeah. >> always going to be stuff like that. If.

you have no oversight or if you have. people that can figure out a way to. inflate this and add on to that and da. da da da da da da da da da Next thing. you know it. >> Well, the press is. extremely important, which is why. government, this government or prior. government, they don't like the press, right? Nobody likes getting in trouble. because the press does, when it operates. at its best, and when when you have the. people that are able to make a living.

being journalists and you're not, you. know, firing everybody who's a good. investigative reporter. then that should be, it's one of the. reasons why the country was founded in. that way, why freedom of the press is so. important is because it's the only. disinfectant. It's the only way and it. doesn't mean people don't use the press. in. malevolent ways or people don't. in the press, but. >> People everything. >> Yeah, but like the public kind of has a. sense or at least used to have a sense. and hopefully will again uh that when.

somebody does an investigative story and. they are able to produce the facts and. figure out who's really responsible for. a certain kind of corruption. that it reduces the corruption. Just is. the case, you know? And it's like you. can't really regulate it or you can. regulate it, but if you regulate it, nobody's paying attention to it then the. press has to identify the people that. are break breaking the rules, you know? The DOJ right now. is supposed [clears throat] to be. the monitor of. making sure that uh.

government institutions and others don't. defy the Constitution, right? So, in. Alabama, clearly, every time you see one. of these events that happens in our film. those are all crimes. Those are being. committed by a state actor, by a prison. guard, right? Those are crimes being. committed against our fellow citizens. The fact that some of these people are. incarcerated doesn't mean they're also. supposed to be killed or maimed, right? >> And so, who really monitors that is the. US Department of Justice because at the.

end of the day, their job is to maintain. uh constitutional level of care and and. it's not by the way, that's not that. great, right? It's like you have to make. sure that there's no cruel and unusual. punishment. Well, clearly in Alabama, there is. >> Well, they started starving them, which. is really crazy. During the strike, they. they were giving them like a tiny. ration. >> Yeah. Yeah, they kept drinking their No. food for days. >> Yeah. >> And so the DOJ's job is to do that. What. was the DOJ doing, you know, a few years. back is they were doing a kind of a sort.

of an okay job pursuing just the worst. actors, the worst of the worst. So they. would find a police station that was. just regularly harming people in its. jails, arresting people for no reason, you know. Uh. they were finding prison systems where. people were getting murdered, like in. Alabama. And that was going okay. Well, that whole Civil Rights Division. of the DOJ is now basically gone, right?

It's been totally repurposed. So now. it's dealing with. uh you know, reverse racism and and. various things like that, but they're. not doing those other cases anymore. They don't care about what's happening. in a police department or what's. happening in a So you don't even have. that level of scrutiny. So you don't. even have that. >> all this change? >> Um I mean, I think most recently you've. seen the DOJ just dismantle the Civil. Rights Division. So that's been in the. current administration. >> Civil Rights Division was in charge of.

looking at the prisons? >> Yeah. >> So what did they done during the last 4. years before that? >> They uh they didn't they also didn't do. a great job, but they did bring actions. that had um. uh impact in a bunch of different. states. So for example, they sued the. state of Alabama, which happened under. the first Trump administration, actually. The the uh the the case. against Alabama started under Obama. Then under Trump, Jeff Sessions had to.

approve the issuance of these letters, these findings letters, and then they. had when Alabama said, you know, take a. hike, you you're wrong, we don't agree, we're not going to make a consent. decree, we're not going to settle, then they had to sue them. So that. happened under. um. that happened under Jeff Sessions. And that was now. you know, two administrations ago. The. Trump administration brought this. action. But it's just being dragged on and.

dragged on. And now the DOJ doesn't. really care about this kind of. litigation. So the people that were. running it are gone. All those people in. >> Well, I have to also imagine that you're. there are so many cases and if the press. was allowed to weekly if that it was. weekly access the press had to these. correction facilities all over the. country, the amount of cases would be. extraordinary. But because they've been allowed to hide. because they've been allowed to do this. stuff in complete secrecy with total. control over whether or not things get.

released or don't get released. Like it's it's just be it's become. just a part of the system. It's like. standard operational procedure. >> Yeah. >> And it's. I mean. >> But the cases would go down. Right? >> Oh, yeah. They would have to. They would. have to. >> Right? If you're beating people in your. care if you're a prison guard like. Broderick Gadson was. >> Yeah, you've and you've had 24 cases of. excessive force. Yeah. >> Um. >> It's sport for them. >> You know, you would say at one point. well, this is not working so great for.

me. So I want to at least behave. somewhat better. >> Of course. Well, I think. your film was probably the first time. most people ever got a chance to see. And I would hope that your film and then. also this conversation and the other. ones that you've been having will. move this conversation in a different. direction where people start talking. about it openly where they're forced to. do something. Cuz it seems like you have. to force them to act. And they're. probably dealing with so many other.

cases as well. This is just another. burden to them. And if it's the. prisoners, oh well, that's the least. priority situation we have to deal with. These people are bad people. They're in. jail. Like those the radio people that. you used their voices. Like it's God, it's like shut the. up. Like you're listening to them. As a. person who's had multiple podcasts with. people that were wrongfully convicted, I've done a ton of them with my friend. Josh Dubin who was originally with the. Innocence Project and he's now with the.

Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. It's. like his passion project is besides. being a successful attorney outside of. that, his passion project is finding. these very obvious cases of people that. were wrongfully convicted that have. spent a giant chunk of their life in. jail. And. through these podcasts we've gotten a. bunch of these people out. And you've. got a chance to have conversations with. them. I've had a few on here. And you. have these conversations with these. people and you realize like these are.

brilliant people who lost a giant chunk. of their potential. to nonsense. >> Yeah. And I think if it's if it's uh. first of all, I think Josh is really. smart and I know I've uh you've done a. lot with him. And I think that's so important. There's. um. you know, there's always a tendency to. sort of. think of only wrongful convictions. because. you know, everybody can agree that. we shouldn't be locked up for something.

that we didn't do. >> We've had people on that weren't. wrongfully convicted that did an. extraordinary amount of time for a minor. crime. >> Right. >> But unfortunately one of them wound up. getting out and then killing a guy, >> yeah. >> cutting off his head and wearing a wig. He didn't I guess he didn't know what. norm the new cameras could do. Which is funny but also not funny. >> saying it's a technology [snorts]. problem. >> He didn't understand the technology he. was dealing with cuz he put on a. [clears throat] wig and he thought it. oh, I'm going to look like a woman. Like. bro, it's like HD. It's you with a wig.

>> He was learning from Bob Durst. >> Yeah, he was yeah. >> Well, I think he you know, he probably acted out of passion and. then was trying to figure out a. rectify this problem that he created. >> Yeah. But one thing I want to talk I. haven't met Josh, but I want to talk to. him. And one thing I want to talk to him. about is the fact that there is like a. level of um. of conviction on the part of a lot of. prosecutors. that they're on the as you're saying.

they're like they're on that team and. therefore they have to subscribe to. everybody's guilty, everybody should be. locked up for as long as possible cuz. there are all these other people that. are defense lawyers and people like that. are on the other team. >> Right. >> But then you end up with people like. Steve Marshall who by the way is running. for Senate right now and we're pushing. to get him to step down from his Senate. run because you know, he's sort of been. exposed for what he's And by the way, he. said that he had never been in the film, he never met me. He just came out with a. whole public statement saying I did I. had nothing to do with those people, I. never met them. I got like 50 pictures.

in my phone of him walking me around the. State House in Alabama. You know, it's. it was there's a. missing piece there, but um. >> That's being very charitable. >> But why is it that I'm a charitable. person? But why is it that, you know, in. Alabama [snorts] for example, there's a. guy named Toforest Johnson. who was arrested for. a a murder million years ago. He's been. on death row the entire time. And the evidence against him totally.

fell apart. There were a dozen people. that gave him a alibi that said we were. with him at this club that was across. town. He had nothing to do with this. crime and yet And by the way, the DA who. that office is the office that should. prosecute that crime, they've asked for. a new trial. They've said that they're. not confident that he's guilty and yet. the Attorney General's office is. continuing to try to execute him. They're trying to kill him for something. which he clearly did not do. There's. another case, a guy named Chris Barber.

where there's DNA evidence that showed. that somebody else committed the crime, and the DA is trying to execute. Christopher Barber. And she you know, they there's this teaming, you know, where you become. uh part of law enforcement, and then. somehow you lose your sense of uh. judgment or nuance, your ability to. decide who's guilty and who's not. guilty. Um and that's a really dangerous thing.

because. >> Yeah, because your career depends on you. getting a win. Your career advances if you get a win. The way you get a a win is convict. people, and not getting convictions. overturned. That's a loss. That up your career. So, better to. kill them. >> Yeah. >> Which just really crazy. >> Yeah. Which is very I mean, it's it's. it's disturbing. um that we haven't come up with ways to. identify. uh fairness, right? That that that that. fairness should be the method by which.

you judge how a district attorney. performs. It's like, well, we decided to. prosecute a certain number of cases. Some of those cases weren't worth. prosecuting. Some of those cases were. going to turn into wrongful convictions. We're not just going to prosecute. everything, which is why this whole. thing about like Brady material, where. you're supposed to give the other side. anything that comes out in the. investigation that might be used to. prove their innocence. You know, if. there's something that goes against the. criminal case, you have to provide it to. the lawyer on the other side. But. regularly, prosecutors bury this.

information. You know, you have some. witness that said, "I was with that. person at the time." And that witness's. testimony disappears. Or you have. something that shows that the. gun that they thought was used to commit. the crime wasn't the one that was used. to commit the crime. So, there's just a. that's the thing, the teaming, the. decision that you have to be part of one. side or another. You know, I I really think that that. that part of your special. where you're sort of like. putting me in the position of somebody. who's having to make a decision about. what team I'm on and where I lose the.

thread. You know, that's like. that's a very significant thing that you. did there, you know, cuz it was like a. way of bringing to the average citizen. that feeling that they're all having. right now. >> Which is like. >> all get lumped into it. Everybody gets lumped into it because. there's only two choices in this country. and that's stupid or you could be one of. those wacky libertarians, you know, and. then you're like, "Oh, Bob's a. libertarian. He's out of his. mind. That shit's never going to work. You know, what else you got?".

>> I mean, I'm always I'm always curious. about. I'm always asking myself what I should. be, you know, what I should be spending. my time on and I get involved in a film. and it kind of. grabs you and it could. >> How do you decide? >> you. I I feel like it decides. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> You know, I feel like I'm just sort of. walking around thinking. maybe I don't need to make another one. of these things. They're very. exhausting, you know, and then something. happens or, you know, my shrink says to. me. Uh yeah, I know you always say you're.

not going to make another movie, but I. think you're better when you're making a. movie. I think you're better when you're. engaged in something like this. And I'm. curious for, you know, you've built this. incredible platform. and you have access to. just a remarkable number of people in. the universe. And. what do you feel like your mission is? What do you feel like is the. you know, when you get to the end of a. week and you look back and you think. like. I did what I was I did what I set out to. do this week.

>> All I ever do. is try to talk to people I'm interested. in talking to and that's it. And I feel like that's what I started. with and that's what I stuck with. And. if I deviate from that path if I say. "Oh, I'll get this guy on because he's. famous and then get more views or I'll. get her on because she's controversial. and I'll get more views. I don't think. like that at all. I don't allow it into.

my head. I get a list of people on my. phone that are interested in coming on. the show and I spend a couple hours a. few times a week just going over this. list and then I'll go, "Hmm, that's. interesting. Let me look into this." And. so then I'll do a search on this person. and what they're interested in and then. maybe I'll watch a documentary or I'll. get an audio book and I'll start. listening to it on the way to work and. then.

I'll decide and I'll go, "Yeah, okay. I. like this. This is cool. I'm into this. This will be a conversation that I'll be. genuinely curious about." And so that's. the only way I do it. And I've done it that way from the very. beginning. I either talk to my friends. or I talk to people who I've seen a. documentary that or read one of their. books or I've watched a YouTube video. with them in and I thought they were. fascinating and then I reach out to my. guy and I say, "Hey, can you see if this. guy's interested in being on?" And.

that's the only way I do it. So I feel like as long as I do that, I. will continue to give people the same. service. And this service is this is an extension. of my curiosity, my honest curiosity to. the world. So whoever I'm honestly. curious about, sit them down, talk to. them, do my best. That's it. And if I try to make it anything more. than that.

if I were to try to change it or distort. it or move it in a general direction or. make it have a message or make it make. more money or whatever it is, I'll. it up. That's what I think. >> I think that's really smart and I think, you know, this is what's lacking is sort. of authenticity. Everybody's like, "Oh, authenticity is so important. How can I. manufacture that?". >> Right. >> And I think your approach is really. smart. I I also think, you know, you I. think you talked about that you really. like playing pool. And that if you. weren't doing this, you might just play.

pool all the time. >> Yeah. That's what I would do. >> playing pool, but I'm wondering like. you know, something's keeping you from playing. pool right now. >> Well, I still enjoy this. If I didn't. enjoy this, I would stop. Like, I don't. need any more money. I mean, I could. just stop if I didn't enjoy it. But, I. do enjoy it. I am a very curious person. I'm fascinated by different people's. perspectives, how they view the world, how they got to where they are, what was. their first step, like why did they make. these choices, like what. what is it about the way they think that.

makes them unique. And um. I don't think I'm ever going to lose. that. I think that's a very important. part of my understanding of us as a. species, us as a civilization, and. yeah, I'm very fascinated with the. history of the human race and how we got. to this point and where we are and how. we define what is normal and what is not. normal and. what our standards are and how, you. know, how they get manipulated. Um I. don't think I'm ever going to stop being. curious about those things. I may stop.

doing this publicly. I will never stop. being curious. I'll never stop watching. all these documentaries or reading books. or. I don't think I'll ever stop trying to. have conversations with people even if I. don't do it publicly. Cuz it's I mean, it's. This is totally accidental. I don't know. if you know the history of this podcast. It started out with me and my friends. just bullshitting in front of a laptop. And there was no expectations. It made. no money for years. And then, um it just kind of grew. And I.

never promoted it. I never went on. anywhere and said, "Please watch my. show." I never took an ad out anywhere. I just kept doing it. And it just. snowballed to the point where I'm like, "All right.". And now I just feel like I have this. responsibility. And I get up and I go, "All right, I got to do this thing. today. First, let me clear my mind. first." So, I go to the gym and I work. out and I get in the cold plunge and I. get in the sauna and I clear my mind out. and then I'm like, "Make sure I'm prepared." And then just.

show up at work. >> Yeah, I noticed that you're not like you. don't look at You don't look at. your phone. >> No, you don't do that. That distracts. people. >> I totally agree. It's very. >> It's gross. >> Yeah. >> Especially if you're talking to someone. that has something really important to. say. I mean, if I'm looking at my phone. for a brief second, it's because it's. something relevant to what we are. talking about. I want to send it to. Jamie so he can pull it up on the. screen. But uh I think it's one of the. great benefits of having these long. conversations with people on a podcast.

is that that's time where you're not. staring at a device. And most. people lack that. So, I've gotten this. completely unexpected education in life. and human beings and how they think and. what drives them and and just what what. makes them interesting and. you know, and. >> How does it How does it impact. like your your you have girl you have. two girls, right? >> Mhm, three. >> How you have three girls. >> Mhm. >> How how does it impact sort of how you. interact with them? You feel like you. you learn something and then you feel.

like you're. >> way more educated person than I ever was. when I was younger. I'm just um I just. know more about humans. I know more. about myself. I I'm just. you know, you're thinking and you're. constantly thinking. So, it's just. adding to this database of understanding. that you have about human beings and. about just life in general and just. education and. you know, um. Unfortunately, my kids are really smart. And so, I have these cool conversations. with them about stuff. And you know, one.

of my kids has this crazy recall that my. wife insists comes from me. She's it's. nuts. Like she can recall things about. the Titanic and specifics about like the. the voyages cuz she's she's got down. this Titanic kick for a while, you know, and lately we've been talking about the. Mongols because there there's she's. studying Genghis Khan in school and so. we had these long conversations about. Mongols and and what they did and what. was and you know, I'm telling her some. stuff that she hasn't known and she. tells me some stuff that I didn't know. Like, whoa.

>> is she? >> This one's 15. Um but. so it impacts my not just my. relationship with them, but really my. relationship with everybody in my life. And the what's really hard is talking to. people that aren't interested in. anything and don't engage with all these. different things. And then when you talk. to them, it's like they're operating on. this. frequency that's like time and and work. and life has sort of ground down all.

their sensitivity and calloused all of. their their their senses to the world or. their thoughts of the world or. perspectives of the world. And they've. developed these sort of placeholder. opinions for things. It's so awkward. And you know, and over time like. you know, Tony Robbins talked about this. once that if you make small changes in. your life, like if you're both going in. parallel lines, right? And then you make. a small deviation a few degrees to the.

right, over time you'll be way over here. where they're kind of on the same path. And that's what I find in life that's. weird. And then I think about how many. people don't have the opportunity to do. that because they have a job that's like. mundane and it's consuming and they're. involved in it all day long. When they. get done, they're exhausted and they. never really satisfy their curiosity or. encourage and engage with their. curiosity. Foster it, you know?

And it's uh it's what to me makes people. fascinating. When I talk to someone. who's curious about things and it's. really like and it went down a while. I. was curious so then I started. researching and this is what I found. out. I'm like that's the kind of person. I want to talk to. You know? >> Yeah, it's real. I mean I think it's. also you know you're probably because it. got big. without a plan to get big and because I. think you're. the essence of it is wanting to.

>> [cough and clears throat]. >> express curiosity, wanting to take in. information. How do you deal with the people who say. like, "Oh, you know, you had so-and-so. on. [snorts]. You should have asked them this or you. should have done something like. >> know that they're saying that. >> Because you don't hear it or you don't. >> pay attention. I gave up on that years ago. Like. off. >> to follow like. >> Yeah, and you realize like, "Oh, I'm at. the will of other people's opinions. constantly." And some of them aren't. logical and some of them are petty and. some of them are shitty. They're just. shitty people. They're mean. Like, "Why.

are you being mean for no reason?" Like, you know, "Why are you being insulting. for no reason?" And a lot of it is. jealousy. They're not getting enough. attention. They think you're an idiot. Why are you getting so much attention? I'm brilliant. I should be getting more. attention. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of ego involved and but. there's a lot of like very. uh. should be nice. Like just people with. shitty perspectives. And you don't want. to engage with that. You don't want that. in your head because I think that's. contagious and that's why people that.

are constantly surrounded by negative, shitty people, they develop negative, shitty tendencies. It's just we imitate. our atmosphere. This is which is why. like this idea of pulling yourself up by. your bootstraps is so crazy when. you're asking some kid whose, you know, dad's been in jail since he was three. and lives in a crime-infested. neighborhood and has 11 kids living in a. one-bedroom apartment and you're saying, "Well, how come you went to jail? Shut. the up, You would have went. to jail, too, if you lived there. You.

don't know what you The like what we. need to do is figure out why are these. kids in this situation? Why are so many. of our citizens of people of our. community stuck in these situations with. no attention paid to it whatsoever? And. then you're wondering why so many people. commit crimes. You're wondering why your. prisons are so full. Like that that. When you engage with people that. constantly have shitty perspectives and. shitty we a little bit that that a. little when you're young is good. But once you're by the time you're like.

19, 20, you know what an is. You know, you don't want in. your life. You like avoid at all costs. And online, if you're engaging with. people online, you're getting at least. 10% It's like there's there's. no way of avoiding it. So, I don't pay. attention to that. Yeah, it gets in your. head. >> I mean, I. >> I am. probably as critical, like logically. critical, as anybody is ever going to be. about me. Like in what I do and the way. I do it and like interviews that went. well or didn't go well, I I examine.

them, you know, and I think about it. Like when they're done, like, that was. like. I should have stopped him from talking. about that because I should have said, like, wait, that doesn't make sense. Like you let people ramble a little bit. too much and then they they change. subjects, you want to go back to it and. then something else comes up and you. lose like, ah, I should have really challenged that a. little bit more or I should have done. this or I should have done that, but you. know, you're. you're freeballing. You don't know what. I don't have any like questions I know. I'm going to ask. I just have an.

understanding of the subject and I let. it play out. And I think that's why it's good. I just think when you listen to people. when I know. you grew up in blah blah blah. You did. this. You did that. It's like the same. tone. There's just questions and the. person answers the question and then. another question comes. Like you're not. having a conversation. And I don't think. of them as interviews. I think of them. as. And I think that's what I want to hear, so that's what I do. And if people are. like, "Well, you should have done this. and asked them this." Like, no, you. should go get a podcast,

Make your own podcast and then get. popular enough where you can get that. person on, then you ask them that. I'm going to ask them what I ask them. and when I'm done, I'm done. That's it. >> Yeah. I mean, I haven't, you know, I I. do interviews for when I'm doing. documentaries. I'll do interview for 7, 8, 9 hours at a time. Not that I suggest. you do it, but. it's the reason I do it is cuz I want to. I want to like converse. I want to. really understand the other person. I. want to give myself time to like really. hear them out. And also,

you know, to some extent, the most. interesting stuff comes out when. everybody just feels comfortable and. their defenses go down. >> Yeah. [snorts] Yeah, Elon was talking. about that. He's like, that's that last. hour. The last hour you can really get them. Cuz it's it's hard for especially if. someone has an agenda. You know, you could after a while you're. talking to them, the tendencies, the way. they view the world comes out. If I. really want to know how someone feels. about. love or life, I want to ask them, you.

know, how they got to where they are in. life. How they. how they became who they are. Like, give. them a chance to brag. Give them a. chance to inflate their. their accomplishments or give them a. chance to. pat themselves on the back. Give them. the chance to dismiss other people's. accomplishments. Give them a chance. You'll find out who people are without. even pressing them on certain things. >> Yeah. No, they want to tell you who they. are. They really do. >> Yeah. And they also like a lot of people.

they have a they have an agenda, you. know, they really want to project. something to the world. And then there's people that don't and. those people are amazing. There's some. people that come in and they're just. open books. They're just like a just a. mind, a curious person, just a a person. who followed a path, an artist, a. singer, a comedian, a this, a that, an. athlete, like whatever it is. Like, what. made you you? How'd you get there? >> That's why I love comedy so much. because, you know, just listen, there's. a joke in in Pumping Mics,

this little series that we did with. Jeff, you know, Jeff Ross and Dave. Attell, and I I got to watch, you know, six versions of Dave, who's just. incredible talent. They're both great, but but Dave telling the same joke like. six different times. >> Right. >> Because we we filmed it over like a long. weekend and we did two shows a night at. the seller. And so, he's got this line when he says, they're talking about like in in. memoriam, you know, people we lost. And. then he talk they talk about Stephen.

Hawking and Dave says, >> [sighs]. >> yeah, Steve Hawking, the great. astrophysicist, you know, we lost him. And Jeff says that and Dave says, he says, yeah, I knew something happened. cuz my printer stopped working. And for some reason, like, this joke. makes people they so many people laughed. at this joke cuz it's so insanely like. impulsive, right? I knew that Steven I. knew Steven Hawking died cuz my printer. stopped working. And the next night, he.

did a different version of it where he. said, oh, cuz my computer stopped. working and it got no laughs at all. And just being able to see the. spontaneity. and like the unlocked quality of Dave's. mind. >> of the joke. >> Yeah. >> But also just like the freedom, right? Which maybe some some of that for some. people come being stoned. >> [cough]. >> Some people. but I see like. the feeling, like even your comedy. special, the feeling that that that it's.

coming in the moment, even though I know. a lot of those things are things that. you've been thinking about talking about. and honing over a lot of years. It's the. moment when it feels like it's coming. naturally. That's that's where like the. the the biggest laughs are. It's also. like where the biggest connection, the. big biggest human connection. >> Yeah, that's where the dance is. The. dance is like staying in the moment no. matter how many times you've talked. about a subject. Don't think about that. Think about the actual subject. It's. You're basically doing like a form of. hypnosis.

You You're leading people to think the. way your mind is working. And the only way you could do that is if. your mind is actually thinking that way. If you're thinking about some other. stuff, for some reason, even if you're. saying the words the exact same way, they can smell it on you. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> They can tell. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, hey, man. Um thank you for everything you've done. Thank you for the jinx and thank you for. the Alabama solution cuz it's really. awesome. And I really hope that um. through that film, a lot of people.

get outraged and uh the right people and. a lot enough attention gets put on it. where you force people to do something. about it. And I don't think people have. any idea how bad these prisons. are until they see that. >> Yeah. >> And I think um those contraband phones. and what those inmates have done and and. and the inmates themselves through the. way they conduct themselves and and you. when you could see how intelligent these. people are and you know, and that you. realize like. this is not right. None of this is.

right. This is. >> I mean, on the positive side, I would. say. just so we don't end on a really. negative note, the. the. film has had an impact in Alabama. It's. having an impact in Alabama already. And. there are incredible demonstrations that. have been happening. There's actually I. don't know if you have it There's a. still of this if you want to look at it, but there's hundreds of people showed up. on the steps of the Capitol. People. really showing up with the intention of.

showing their loved ones being there and. saying this is really happening and. giving the rest of the public permission. to understand that this is, you know, 45% of Americans have have have had an. incarcerated relative or been. incarcerated. This is an infection. This. is happening in many, many, many places. So, for us, the film has been unlocking. that, giving people a feeling that. there's that that they're not alone, that they don't have to be ashamed of. having somebody. So, you know, these are people who've.

seen the film. who've decided that they want to express. themselves, and this is happening more. and more. And we just saw there was a. bipartisan bill that was just introduced. by by a Senator Larry Stuts, who's a. Republican Senator, who said. he saw the film, he couldn't unsee it, and he said this is not he wrote an. editor- op-ed about it not being example. of Christian values, and he introduced. this bipartisan bill for prison. oversight, which is a real bill. It's.

not a bill. It's a real bill. about how you take the investigations, cuz you saw in the film the. investigations are run by the same. department that. >> Yeah, it's insane. >> commits the crimes. So, um so, I think. we're we're seeing a lot of positive. action as a result of the film, and I. think that's what transparency's all. about. Is if the public can see it, and I appreciate your. talking about this and having this be in. the public conversation, cuz it's really. important if people see it, they they're not happy about it. They.

understand that something. more humane needs to be done. >> Yeah, I think universally. I don't think. anybody could watch that and not think. something should be done. So, thank you. Really appreciate it. Thanks for being. here. I enjoyed it. >> All right. >> Bye, everybody. >> [music].