Joe Rogan Experience #2473 - Bill Thompson

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> WHAT'S UP, JOE? >> How you doing, Joe? >> Good to see you, brother. >> Good to see you. This is This might be. one of the coolest things anyone's ever. given me. So, you gave me this knife. The Explain all this. >> All right, so I mean, there's a larger. explanatory reason behind this. My. brother and I grew up. My father died. when I was five.

My brother and I grew up doing um. these things called rendezvous. Have you. ever heard of them? >> Um in what way? What is a rendezvous? >> So, there you go. So, what a rendezvous. is is it's not You know you go to those. like uh. where I don't even know what they're. called, but people do like reenactments. >> Oh, okay. Like Civil War reenactments? >> It's not like that. So, that's the. closest thing approximation to probably. what it is. You get invited to them or these days. are easier to get to, but my stepfather, my the guy my mother remarried, brought. us to them. All you do is camp, but.

you're only allowed to camp and no one. comes to the camp or sometimes they. might have people at the end, but while. you're in the camp, everything in the. camp has to be 1840 or prior. So, there can be no modern. appurtenances, nothing like a you know, refrigerator, nothing like that. >> 1840, why that year? >> At the end of the fur trapping. At the. end of like that that was considered. like Jeremiah Johnson time, like peak. fur trapping. >> Oh. >> So, there's people, you know, they dress. like either. you know, revolutionary, like American. revolutionaries, or they dress like. mountain men, or they dress like.

Indians. >> How did you guys dress? >> Mountain men. So, uh while we're there, you learn all kinds of stuff while. you're reenacting. Like I learned how to. brain tan hides. I learned how to. traditionally art do traditional. archery. Stuff like that. So, anyway, this knife. was a knife I'd actually started working. on with my brother a while ago. I do more of like the brain tanning, tomahawk throwing. >> you're saying brain tanning, you're. talking about using brains to tan animal. hides, right? Using animal brains. What. What What does brains do? What does. brains. >> It softens the leather in a natural way.

And what's cool about it is every. animal, no matter what animal you kill, has the exact amount of brain needed in. order to tan the hide. So, you don't need any additional like. people use egg yolks or mayonnaise or. something like that. All you do is you. take the brain out of the cavity, you. grind it up, you mix it into some water, and then after you've after you've. cleaned the leather and you've scraped. it clean, you stretch it. I usually use. like a dull shovel. You stretch it over. the dull shovel and then you soak it in. the brain water mixture. And then you.

just keep repeating that pattern. And. the leather gets like a really nice soft. um. uh feel to it. >> What is it about the brain? Is it the. fat? >> It breaks down the leather. Uh I'm not. sure if it's the fat or I haven't gotten. that deep into it, but it breaks down. the leather and just makes it feel. really soft, really nice. So, anyway, this knife here I started I I killed. that bear, so the jaw is made out of two. um bear jaws or out of one bear jaw. split in half. So, um that was a bear I killed in Canada in.

2017. It was my biggest black um black. bear. And uh. so, we split the jaw, put that together. Um it's Irish linen threading. Then. that's a knife that um my brother had. picked up and that was from 1860. It was. totally rusted. We had to grind it back. or he had to grind it back down. And then the sheath is uh is traditional. like the you know, you could The cool. thing about doing rendezvous and the. cool thing about this is. you could have a DeLorean and drop that. in 1840 and somebody pick it up and. think it was made yesterday. And so,

everything on there has been done. traditionally from the um the quilling. on the beadwork is made from porcupine. quills. The backing is um. uh buffalo brain tan. And then the front is beaver hide or. beaver tail, I'm sorry. >> Mhm. >> And then um the sides are horse and. turkey hair hanging off of it. >> And these are bear teeth? >> And those are bear teeth, yep. >> Wow. >> From the same bear. So, what when I was. thinking about what I was cuz I wanted. to give you something for inviting me on. because it's still a shock to me that.

you did it. Even though we've been. talking for so long, I just never. imagined a scenario where you'd want to. have me on here, so. >> Well, you're an interesting dude. >> I thought, what can I give this guy. that, you know, money or people or. whatever couldn't get you. And so, I. thought this is the right thing to do. So, it went from a me project to a you. project and uh. my brother Aaron uh helped me out with. it tremendously. >> So, how did you find this knife from the. 1860s? >> Well, he found it. My brother is um even. more esoteric and odd than I am, believe.

it or not, and uh he collects this kind. of stuff. Um they I mean, the guy who. dated it said 1860 to to 1890. They is. what they figured. And uh and you can tell by the way that. like around the hilt and the way that. it's the the pitting on it and stuff. like that and and the way that it was. made that it fits that era. I mean, it. could have been somebody redid it in. 1900, but it's definitely that old. Look at. the type of steel and the way that it. was worked and the way that it is around. the hilt around the bottom there. >> Wow.

>> And um so, it's at least, you know, 130, 140, but most likely 160, 170. >> It actually fits my hand perfect. >> Yeah, so that's also something my. brother and I talked about about how. long it was going to be. and we and we made some educated guesses. and put it all together. So, yeah, I. mean, like I said, not something you can. just go pick up somewhere something that. will, you know, hopefully mean. something. Not saying it's prac- prac-. um practical, like it's not something. you'd be gutting a elk out with, but um. >> Well, if we get attacked by zombies in.

the studio, it's a good thing to have on. the desk. >> Yeah, I mean, if you're going to make a. last stand, you know, that's a pretty good that's a. pretty good knife to make your last. stand with. >> good way to go out. >> Yeah, exactly. >> That was awesome, man. >> Yeah, so the rendezvous's um. uh we did those from. >> How How do they last? >> Uh. they vary from a week and then some go. up to 3 weeks. >> And what do you do for food while you're. out there? >> Um so inside of your lodge So there's. two types of rendezvous. In. most rendezvous inside of your lodge. you can have a cooler. as long as it doesn't leave the lodge.

So I have like a a 20-ft teepee that I. take to these things. And inside of my. teepee you can have a cooler. >> Oh. >> At some modern appurtenances. >> Did they have any kind of coolers in the. 1800s? >> I mean they had ice boxes and I like. steel ice boxes and that type of thing. but nothing like we have today. Um. you know, stuff was getting dug out, buried in the ground or put into the. ground like cool areas of the ground or. dig out and they dried everything. So. pemmican would have been the, you know, everyday thing to eat. That's just.

dried. >> So did you bring your own food or did. you have to hunt for food? >> Uh so you bring your own food but there. are other rendezvous that are kind of. invite-only and I don't even think a lot. of people who do rendezvous knew about. these but there's ones that I think. they're called I think I might be. speaking out of school. Somebody might. send me an email after this but I'm. going to talk about it anyway cuz I. never got read the riot act. They're. called jury I think they called them. jury southerners and I've only been to. one of those. And that's where. everything in the camp has to be. pre-1840. You meet down in a parking. lot. You put everything on the back of a. mule and you go When I did mine it was.

up in the. I think it was the Big Horns. So you know, you talk to a rancher. Um get everything packed up. You go into. the back of the Big Horns and everything. in camp has to be pre-1840. As close as. it can get. They'll even look at your. stitching and say, "Oh, that was sewn. with a with a sewing machine. You got to. take that off." And it's always these. weird like eccentric history teachers. that run them. Like guys who you know, teaches history at Berkeley or something. like that or other places. They just. really enjoy living like this. And at.

those ones, if they're in season, you. can hunt whatever's in season. You're. hunting with traditional archery and. it's really good for kids. Like the. internet wasn't a problem as much when I. was a kid. I was certainly into. computers. I have been since I was a. child. But you could just detach. Everyone's. running around crazy. You're sitting. around the campfire at night. People are. singing with the, you know, songs and. the guitar. You're learning how to do. things like this. You're learning how to. brain tan. You're learning how to live. traditionally. And uh it's it's a. eccentric cult kind of It's not a cult. It's an eccentric group of people. It's.

a lot of fun. People take it very. community. People take it very. seriously. They There's There's more. advertising surrounding it now than. there used to be cuz numbers are kind of. dwindling. But uh I did my last one last year with. my brother. So if you go on my. Instagram, there's a picture of my. brother, my son, and I. doing I think our second rendezvous. together. And we're just dressed like, you know, I've actually got a awesome. war shirt. I can show you the picture. I've got an awesome war shirt that a a. friend of mine. uh uh went to war with. His He was half.

Native American. His grandfather was um. Ojibway or something. Chippewa, something like that. And he was. I don't remember what his role was, but. anyway, I went We we deployed to Iraq. together. And his grandpa made me this war shirt. Oh, there you found it, Jamie. He pulled it up. That's my lodge. Um How much do you enjoy a shower after. you get out of here? I mean, I I. As long as you um keep, you know, There. They have showers in camp. They've got a.

shower and area a showering area where. it's just like pallets. That's the. inside of my lodge. Um So there's a cooler at this one. This. is not a jury rendezvous. Um and uh. So you can shower while you're Some of. them They call them hooters. They'll be. like a latrine and a shower area in. camp. But also like some of them I don't. I don't do it at all. >> This is wild. >> And so there's no reenacting. Like. there's not like civilians walking. around and. >> It's not like Renaissance Fair. >> Yeah, exactly. It's just more like I. want to act like it's 1840 for a couple. of weeks and not look at my phone one.

time and not worry about the news. It's. amazing after a week here, you really. forget about the world. And you're like. don't even know you're supposed to be. stressed out about things. You're just. out there doing your thing for a couple. of weeks. >> And you just cook over open fire. >> gets done traditionally that way, yeah. >> And did you bring your own meat and. everything? >> bring your own meat and stuff in a. cooler. Um and then uh there's also cooking. classes where they teach you like all. the recipes to do with like a a Dutch. oven, like an old cast iron oven. And uh.

they do gambling at nights. So you'll. walk into like a huge they call. marquees, but it's like a huge 100-ft. square lodge. There'd be three gambling. tables in there, girls in like the. low-cut shirts and dealing cards and. smoking cigars and just having amazing. time. And there are you go by camp names. while you're in there. Nobody uses their. real name. Well, some people use their. real name. I'd say 60% of people don't use their. real names. >> camp name? >> This is embarrassing. >> It should be. >> Yeah, so. uh I got my camp name I got christened.

with my camp name in the Big Horns when. I was. 14 or 13. And it was Talks-a-Lot. >> Talks-a-Lot. >> Yeah, and Sioux it was pronounced. E-ah-o-tah. And uh. >> Just cuz you talk a lot? Or. >> When I was a kid I talked a lot Actually. as an adult I don't talk that much. unless I know you. Um. but as a kid I would never shut up. I. had really bad ADHD. They kind of. diagnosed me with having some low-level. version of Asperger's. And uh I was a rapscallion in class,

just never shut up, never listened, never did anything. And uh. >> Those are the people that are the most. fun. >> Well, I they didn't enjoy me in high. school or in grade school. >> would have been your friend. >> But uh yeah, they they called me. E-ah-o-tah uh. and you know, we got christened and uh. it was a you know, it's a one of the. things we're kind of missing in culture. today or something that I'm trying to. reinvigorate, especially with my son and. with other, you know, young men that I. run into is kind of like coming-of-age. rites. Yeah. Something to say.

you're a man and I'm going to start. treating you like a man from this moment. forward." Like, you know, what does that. There should be structure to that. You. know, we we're tribal. And um it's important to me. So, uh. >> I think that is really something that's. missing from society. I think that it I. used to think it was silly when I was. young. And then as I got older, I. realized, "Oh, I went through that. I. became a black belt and I started. fighting.". >> Yes. And you had a group of men telling. you, "You're at this level. We're going. to treat you like that. And if you fall. from grace, we're going to remind you. right away.".

>> Yeah. >> And uh we we just don't do that with. young men. And we have a society now. where young men act like young men till. they're 45 or 50 or 60. >> And sometimes never stop. >> Yeah. And um you know, women, nature. imposes itself on women. They become. fertile. They're able to have babies. And uh. And uh they got to seek security or find. a husband or a really good job that will. supplement whatever a husband would. provide. And they got to start acting. like a woman. Whereas men can sit in a. basement, uh you know, and it becomes. very dangerous. >> Especially men that never have children.

>> Yeah. And. >> They They're perpetual children. >> Yeah. And if you don't impose nature on. yourself by undergoing those types of. rights and understanding what it means. to become a man, nature will impose. itself on you by either A, you're never. going to have children and therefore. you're dead forever. Or B, it will kill. you because you're fat and in your mom's. basement. You get diabetes, the foot. chopped off when you're 35, and you. know, we just don't tell men. We don't have a. The military did it for me. I had really put off uh. responsibility or.

uh seeking meaning or any of those. things until I was in the military. And. like I said, my father died when I was. five. So, I really had no central male. authority until I was about 13 or 14. when I met this guy, Steve. Um. And uh he kind of initiated some of. those rights for me and and held me to. account. But it was really the military. which was a turning point for me where. um. there was a standard and I was expected. to hold it. >> I I think there's a reason why most. ancient cultures and a lot of ancient. religions have these rights of passages.

where you are like a now officially. officially a man. >> Yeah. >> Officially, you know, you're. responsible. You You are You have to. think of yourself as a different thing. now. Whereas, if you leave it up to your. own. decision, men sort of dwindle into this. perpetual state of childhood. >> Yep, and it's not about you anymore. It's about other people. Like that that. for me having children, I've got four. kids. Um really, you know, the military was. kind of the first inkling of.

responsibility, but then having children. and realizing this isn't about me at all. and I need to be willing to break my. back for these people who depend on me. Um. >> There's this weird primal feeling that. you have you're responsible for these. like very vulnerable little people that. you love more than life itself. It just. changes everything. It just kicks you. into gear. But for some people it. doesn't, you know, some people that are. so stuck in that perpetual childhood. thing, they just wind up deciding it's. too much of a drag and they get. divorced. >> Yeah. >> You know, and then they [ __ ] up the.

kids. >> Yeah. God, we have so many rabbit holes we. could go down on this, but I mean it it. was um. you know, growing up in the '80s and the. early '90s, it was really like a divorce. culture. >> Mhm. >> And I I obviously understand that if. you're in a bad relationship or an. abusive relationship or, you know, there's there's certainly there's a. threshold where marriage should. dissolve. No question. But I kind of feel like it our the. central thrust of a lot of culture at. that time was about like divorce or not.

getting married or, you know, discovering yourself and that type of. thing, which in some ways is good. There's goodness there. But when it. becomes a central thrust or a central. narrative and divorce becomes very easy. or it it's happening everywhere, >> It's super normalized. >> And it's normalized, it's super. destructive. Children are the ones who. suffer the most on it and I think the. data is clear on that. >> Mhm. >> Um when you look at, you know, single. parent homes or no parent homes or being. raised, you know, without a an authority. >> or an abusive step person. >> An abusive and that is, you know, when. you look up the stats on that like. remarriage and having a new family like.

that that becomes the single most likely. vector of abuse in a child young child's. life is that new person, right? Because. now they're raising someone else's kid. or whatever. Um. >> I mean, it's a that's in every old. movie, the evil stepmother. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or evil stepfather, but it's in the old. movies it's always the stepmother that. abuses the girl. >> Yes. And and and so, you know, I kind of uh. I kind of resented that part of that. time that culture was um I shouldn't say.

when I was a child, I should say as I. got older cuz I wasn't a single mom. home. And the guy that my mother. remarried right after my father died was. abusive. And um, you know, he really got. hard on my younger brother and, you. know, my mother moved us out almost. immediately, but uh when I re-examined. that time it really was a. you know, I don't know how to describe it, but, you know, there are no rules when it. comes to relationships and family and. every family special and particular in.

its own way and they all need to be. venerated. And there's of course some. truth to that. We shouldn't deride. someone because they come from a broken. family. But we shouldn't elevate it like. it's at the same level as a unified. family. Um and and that's a tricky line. to to walk, but also the people who are. making those movies in that culture came. from the '50s and '60s where divorce was. just not in the cards. And so that was a, you know, Hooke's law. as you. bend any object it wants to return back. to its natural state. And Hooke's law. kind of played there where nobody could.

get divorced in the '40s, '30s, '40s, '50s, and '60s. Then you had the baby. boomers who kind of culturally said, you know, actually it there's it's not. as bad as we think, but then it. overcorrected. And then it became kind. of kind of part of that cultural. zeitgeist. >> That's kind of what humans do, right? We. always overcorrect. >> Yeah, we do. Yeah, we go in one. direction until we realize it's. destructive and then we overcorrect. until we realize that's destructive. >> Yeah. >> This episode is brought to you by Ketone. IQ. The demands on my time, energy, and.

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money-back guarantee. That's how. confident they are that you're going to. love the increased focus you get from. Ketone IQ. >> And I would say that's the and and not. this isn't a political thing, this is. just the reality of it. That's mostly. what makes me conservative in nature is. I agree systems need to change, but they. need to change slowly and pragmatically. So, we because, you know, any social um. any social scientist worth their salt. will know. a social experiment almost never has the. outcome that we thought it was going to.

have. In other words, we thought doing. something to society would form society. this way, but almost has the the. inverse, the anti-pattern, like we. talked about before and and almost ends. up propagating itself. And so, that. makes me I'm I'm still a proponent for. change, but it should be slow and and. thought out and and done in pockets. first. Yeah. Kind of you know, federalism. Let's do little changes. here. Let's let California be crazy for. a while and see how that works out for. them. But let's not nationalize the craziness.

Let's learn from what they learn there. and there there'll be goodness, you. know, hot burritos will make great. coffee and cool art. And let's take those parts, but how. about the. rampant homeless? Let's find out what. caused that and and and solve for that. and and you know, that was kind of the. founders intent with federalism. They're. really federalist minded state minded. and there's, you know, even for that. being as 250 years ago, there's a. profound amount of profundity in that. Like let's change things slowly and let. social experiments take place and adopt.

the best parts of those things and then. integrate them to the culture overall as. we move along. But, you know, let's not. throw the baby out with the bath water. >> Yeah, I think in this country one of the. primary problems that people have is a. profound lack of respect for discipline. and how important discipline is for your. life. >> Yeah. >> And discipline is associated with. conservatism. And because of that, like a lot of. people think that I'm. I don't think I'm anything. I I think I. I I I have.

politically or ideologically, I have a. lot of everything in me. I don't think I. identify with one side or another, but. if one thing that I agree with. conservative people on, conservative. people lend more towards the importance. of discipline, hard work, discipline, don't complain, get things done, re-. deal with the hand that you've been. dealt with and just sort it out and get. to work. Don't don't cry, don't look for. other people to save you, they're not. going to. And this is not something that's.

celebrated in society. It's thought of. as a cruelty that if you you say that. you need discipline then well, you're. you're not treating these people that. are victims of circumstance with the. proper respect or with the proper. empathy and. I think a certain amount of empathy is. probably not so good for you at a. certain point in time. There comes a. point in time where you're letting. people wallow in their [ __ ] and just. make excuses for why they're not getting. anything done. In that sense, I think. California is that that is a giant part. of what's wrong with California. What's.

wrong with California when it comes to. crime, what's wrong with California that. they're. the way they address crime and the way. they address homelessness and all these. issues that they have, they don't put. their foot down. At a certain point in. time, you got to realize like. what Gad Saad calls suicidal empathy. A. society can suffer from suicidal empathy. and then at a certain point in time, you. got to enforce rules and you got to make. it so that people have to get their [ __ ]. together. >> Yeah, and that suicidal empathy becomes. a way for the person who's imposing it. on someone else to feel good about.

themselves, >> Mhm. >> which makes it even trickier and even. more um insidious because they're. they're they're feeling good from their. the weaponization of other people's. um lot in life. >> Mhm. >> And and and the the thing about that is. none of the rules that you're going to. impose, especially as a legislator. or as somebody in a think tank, you'll. never feel the repercussions of them. You'll never have to actually deal with. it day-to-day. You're just imposing it. on someone else and saying I better. understand the the structure of reality.

and the fabric of the world and you. can't help but be this way. >> It's the system that's done this to you. So, let me give you pedants that I'm. going to take from someone else. >> Mhm. >> and and that makes me benevolent and I. get to feel good about that. >> That's a giant part of government, for. sure. That's a giant part of what's the. problem with like liberal governments. Liberal governments should they should. get paid. based on. whether or not the city does better or. worse financially than when they were in.

office. If their policies lead to uh. greater domestic production of goods and. services and you know, GDP does better. and everything does better, then you. should get paid more. If more real. estate sales, more people are making. more money, medium medium income raises, less homeless people, you should get. paid more. And you should get paid less. if homeless just goes up, if crime goes. up, if there's more destruction, if. there's more, you know, assaults and. home invasions, you should get paid. less. >> Right.

>> You're you're doing a shitty job. And if. you did that, I think they would impose. laws that made it safer and healthier. and made it for, you know, better for. society. >> Yeah, and then they would just. inevitably change the ways that we track. and measure those things. and pay themselves more anyway. >> shouldn't have the opportunity to do. that. Then you need some sort of an. oversight that's completely cynical. You're right though. You're right it to. be cynical because that's what they do. about everything. Someone was explaining. to me yesterday that. one of the problems with. cleaning up fraud is that fraud is.

responsible for a giant percentage of. GDP and if you you have hundreds of. billions of dollars of fraud in this. country and you eliminated that, you. actually lower GDP. Cuz you you actually lower the amount of. money that's in circulation. >> That's interesting. I've never thought. about that before. >> He was explaining to me and I was like, oh my god, that is crazy that a giant. percentage of our GDP is fraud. And if. that was somehow or another eliminated,

I mean, like one of the things that they. do when they raise jobs, like they they. increase GDP. We've we've added, you. know, 200,000 jobs to the market. Well, what are those jobs? Like, what are. those jobs? Are these government jobs? Cuz the government is a giant percentage. of our GDP. >> Government jobs. >> It's way bigger than it should be. >> Way bigger. And those jobs, a lot of. them are [ __ ] and waste, a lot of. them. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that was some of the stuff. that was uncovered during DOJ. You know, the limited amount of access that DOJ.

had to it. Just Just the beginning of it. where you got to see the curtain pulled. back and get to see exposure of so many. of these fraudulent supposedly. charitable organizations that were. really just money laundering. They're. really just funneling money into these. people's hands. Like Like the homeless. thing in California. >> Oh my goodness. >> It's a bonkers situation where they've. spent $24 billion. They cannot track it. They've tried to audit it. The.

government has vetoed these audits. And they have no idea where that $24. billion went and yet homelessness went. up. >> Yeah. >> But you've got a giant machine that is. this homeless establishment, this. homeless industrial complex, that is. being funneled money into that and that. actually aids the GDP, which is kind of. crazy. >> Yeah, I mean, it was one of the things. my last three years in the military, um. I was advising a colonel and a two-star.

general and they were in charge of all. of the. offensive cyber development. Ethical hacking, offensive cyber. development. I was their technical. advisor. And one of the things I kind of learned. about government at that point was. um these systems have their own. incentive and the incentive's not the. output of their purported mission. The. incentive is the growing of the. organization and the execution of. budget. So, while they're in there, you know, I've never seen a field grade officer.

get dressed down more than when he. didn't spend all of the money that he. was budgeted for for that year. >> Isn't that crazy? >> go to the Pentagon and they'd be like, "Well, you didn't execute $300 million. of OCO, of overseas contingency. operations funds here." And they would. dress him down for an hour. >> And what people don't understand is if. you don't spend that money, your budget. for the next year will be lower because. there's no need to have a higher budget. >> Instead of tying it to mission to say, "Did you achieve your mission. objectives?". >> Right. >> You we started the year agreeing.

agreeing from the front president's. framework the NIPF, the National. Intelligence Priority Framework. We. wanted to achieve these effects. You. what you would want to hear is, "We. achieved them and we saved 25%.". >> Right. >> But instead it's, "We achieved them but. we didn't execute all of this money.". Well, you're fired. And I literally have. seen that happen. I've literally seen. that happen. And and that. >> What a sick society. >> Yeah, and that kind of shifted my. thinking in that. um these systems have their own. incentive to exist and to grow because. those guys that were holding that.

general officer or that O6's that. colonel's feet to the fire, they also have an incentive to cuz they. were part of that trickle down. And. they've got bureaucracy that surrounds. them. And if they didn't execute it, that means they didn't execute it and. that means they have to go to whomever. This is during the Biden administration. I believe Hegseth for everything we. could say has actually tightened this up. quite a bit and he's kind of re-hauled. the way development works, especially on. the offensive cyber side. But they have. bureaucracies and the incentive of the. bureaucracy is to make sure that we grow.

and that's it. And then then you think. about that for a minute and you're like, "Well, it's no longer a question why we. have $30 billion of of debt.". >> 39. >> 39 trillion and then what, like 150. trillion of unfunded liability. In other. words, we've promised people money. for the next 30 years. And and it's debt that, you know, I. don't see how we'll ever escape that. debt. Um. and it's the thing about it is is. and and I don't want to be pigeonholed. because I'm actually quite liberal when. it comes to.

my politics are are like yours in that. I'm a kind of a man without a home, but. they also change at different levels of. analysis. I'm very liberal with my. family. And I'm very like communist. I protect. them. I give them everything they need. I'm trying to give them structure. And. and even in my community, I'll help. someone out out of pocket or do. something for them that's a strain on my. time or might hurt something else. because there are really no solutions. There's just trade-offs. >> That's supportive for the community. though. That's how people are supposed. to do charity. >> And and and I'm also very non-judgmental.

in someone how they care I don't care. what they do in their house. I don't. care if it's a Roman orgy on the. weekends. Like. be a predictable productive person. Monday through Friday and go do your. Roman orgy on the on the weekend. I. don't care. I won't judge you. Like I. don't I really have enough crap in my. own life. >> As long as someone's not getting hurt. >> long as no one's getting hurt. Consenting adults. Like I I have enough. problems and I screw up enough and. people have have there's a laundry list. of things that people could say about me. how I've screwed up in my life. But then. as I graduate and get higher and higher,

more conservatism. takes place. Um and and and that's a. result of just, you know, having an. engineering mindset when I'm looking at. life and understanding that it's just. not Republican or Democrat or leftist or. rightist or or liberal or or classically. liberal. All of these monikers. don't work for me because they break. down at at some level of analysis. >> Right. And I think that's the problem. I. think the problem is these ideologies. that people subscribe to. We have a.

predetermined pattern of thinking that. you're supposed to adopt. >> Yes. >> You're supposed to adopt these opinions. And some of them just don't fit and. that's how people get pigeon That's like. on people on the left, they get. pigeonholed into weird stuff that you. can't really really justify like trans. women in sports. Like what the [ __ ] are. you doing? And you know, like we're. we're you know, we're being inclusive. Like no, you're not. >> We're loving the borders of Ukraine. while hating our own border. >> Yeah. [ __ ] bonkers. Yeah, it's. there's so many crazy things. There's so. many crazy things that people just adopt.

that don't make any sense. And you know, when you subscribe to an ideology, the. problem is if like if you you define. yourself as this person, I am this. I am. a hardcore right-wing blah blah, whatever it is. You You immediately close the door to. all the very productive and interesting. things that the other side thinks. >> Yeah, and you're also making yourself. into a tool of propaganda. >> Mhm. >> Cuz if I If someone If I meet someone. and they just say I'm this, >> Right. >> it's like, well, I could reasonably. predict everything that's going to come. out of your mouth.

>> Yeah. >> That's not entertaining. I don't want to. have a conversation with that person. I. can't seek to learn from them cuz I. could just pick up the Communist. Manifesto or Mein Kampf. >> Right. >> and have a pretty good understanding of. who I'm dealing with and therefore a. conversation's not is not relevant. It's. not needed. >> of people are afraid of social. ostracization, too. So, they're they're. afraid of. straying outside of the narrative, whatever side they're supposed to be on. And, you know, some groups are really. good at making you feel like dog [ __ ] if. you don't agree entirely with even.

things that don't even make any sense. >> Yes. >> So, that's how people go along with. stuff that's illogical, like open. borders or what whatever it is. >> Yeah. >> They go along with things that's not in. their best interest because they're. scared. They're scared of being. ostracized. They're scared of being cast. out of the kingdom. There's you know, they're scared of being excommunicated. >> Yeah, I I dealt with a lot of people. first when I retired from the military. and then more recently, um, leading up. to the last election where, you know, I. was entertaining the deal of doing some. work for government. Um, believe it or.

not. And cuz I'm As we talk more, you'll. figure out I'm pretty anti-. institutions. I'm I'm really, uh, against those types of things. But, I. really felt If you would have asked me 3. years ago how I felt about the Trump. election and all of that stuff, I was. very excited because he was saying a lot. of things that I wanted someone to say. Trump fits a pattern and this is what. people I think kind of lack when they. My whole life is built around pattern. analysis. I really enjoy patterns and. exhuming. exhuming and and looking into patterns.

And there's a pattern of like, uh, you. This You'll laugh when I say this first. part of the pattern, but then I'll I'll. I'll make it make more sense later, but. he fits the pattern well. First, he's a. Jacksonian and. in that he's a pragmatic person the way. that he governs, which I liked. Or at. least I did and you know, there's some. things he's done recently that I don't. enjoy. And. but he's also a outsider or or a savior. type.

I'll you know, I don't remember the. movie, but the Magnificent Seven back in. the day. I don't remember the actor's. name. There's this group of you know, there's. this Western town, everything's going to. [ __ ] These seven guys walk in. I think. Chris Pratt remade it with Denzel. Washington or someone else. I think so. I I can't remember. But. there's an old one that I used to watch. with my grandma. >> God, there's too many movies. >> Yeah. And there's this pattern where. you wouldn't invite these guys to a. dinner party. You wouldn't want them in. church on Sunday. But when a system is.

so corrupt and so horrible, you have to. rely on these types of people to come in. and be a check to the system. But then. also you don't want them to stick around. when the system is reset. So there's a. scene in the movie where he says you. know, man these the 77 guys are talking. and they said man these people must have. really wanted us. Like it's crazy. They. must be happy we're here. And I think. it's Gary Cooper or someone or one of. these guys says looks at him and says. they're going to be even happier when we. leave. And Trump kind of fits that narrative. Wolverine from the X-Men would be. another one that fits this narrative.

Like is he going to be at the X-Men. Christmas party? No. >> Right? Is he trying to hit on Scott. Grey's wife Cyclops? I'm a comic nerd, so I'm sorry. >> Is he trying to hit on Is he trying to. sleep with Cyclops's wife? Yes. Did he. chop a guy's head off and throw it at a. car? Yes. But we're about to go face. Galactus and we're going to need him. And so we have to put up with all of. this other stuff because we understand. that when the system is corrupt at every. level, you need to someone who's outside. of the system to come in and set the the.

right. It's a western. um pattern as well. Other people who fit. this would be like Patton, right? Married his cousin. Slapped soldiers who. >> He did really? He married his cousin? >> think it's his third cousin. Uh how many. >> cousins removed before it doesn't become. okay? >> I don't know. >> Is it third? Fourth? >> If there's blood. >> Have you never met them? >> I'm Icelandic, so I really can't say. anything, right? They literally have. apps in Iceland. Like my grandparents. and my great-grandparents are all from. Iceland. My my they settled in Manitoba, Gimli, Manitoba, which is this Icelandic.

community. And they literally have apps. in Iceland to make sure you're not. dating your cousin. So, you know, it's. you know, less than. >> such a small community? >> Less than a million people all on one. island, >> Right. >> it's So, you're trying to prevent that. stuff. But anyway, um Patton, yeah. Uh. slapped soldiers who had tuberculosis. One of them probably had shell shock. It. got in the newspaper. They wanted his. head. And thankfully the generals were. like, "No, he's the guy that we need for. the moment, right?" He He would have the. ivory pistols and he dressed like not. like a general. He didn't talk like a. general. He wasn't like a.

Eisenhower where he had the the veneer. of a general. But we knew he was the only guy we could. have at the Battle of the Bulge. Like. the Germans talked about him like he was. already a mythic legend in his own in. his lifetime. Um but the part of this pattern that. people should understand or when they. examine this pattern is it never ends. well for these anti-heroes. They're. always killed and they're always killed. or defamed in the final analysis. So, when Magnusson 7 come in, they'll go to. another town and they'll get killed.

When Patton retired, he died in some. weird Jeep accident. Um. you know, Wolverine, he's the only guy. left uh on this desolate like world. where the Hulk's in charge and it's a. horrible existence. Uh Pat or not. Patton, um Petraeus is another one. I. you know, I I briefed Petraeus. I worked. for not for him, but for people who. worked for him in in Iraq. And um. he was the guy that got us through with. the surge. But um he he was really a. weird guy when you would talk to him. Like,

you knew that he knew something you. didn't and that he was seeing things. that you weren't. But, even for myself. as being like a chief warrant officer at. that time, a low-level technician, he. would ask questions like he got it. He. didn't act like other generals. Like, other generals would have their three. things they want to talk about then they. would want to get out of dodge. He would ask questions that really had. implications. And and and he is another. one of these outsiders who came in to. write a system that was not working. vis-a-vis Iraq in 2006. And then what happens to him when he. leaves? He they put him in charge of the.

CIA. They knew he had been screwing. around with this woman and they're like, "Okay, we he served his function. Now he. needs to get out of dodge." And then he. now he's, you know, uh got tried for all of these things and. sleeping with someone while he wasn't. married and you know, there's it's not a. ceremonious end for these types. I saw and sorry. >> really what happened to Petraeus? That's. how he ended? >> Yeah, he was sleeping with some girl. that was writing his book or something. along those lines. >> Uh. >> While while he was married? >> Yeah, I'm not saying that's the end of. him. All I'm saying is that history will.

remember the pattern is ending. unfavorably. You know what I'm saying? And so when I examined Trump, I I I. said, "Yeah, I don't like what he says. I wouldn't want him around my daughters. I don't want wouldn't want him at a. dinner party.". Um, but he seems to be saying these. things like he's going to reset this. system. You know, I think it was. Chappelle was on your show or another. show or someone like that where he. talked about Hillary saying, you know, something about the tax loopholes or. whatever. And he just hit right back at. her and said, "Well, you're the people.

who are funding your campaign take. advantage of those same loopholes and if. they're there, I'm going to take. advantage of them. I wouldn't be a. pragmatist if I didn't." When he started. saying stuff like that, it seemed to me. like he was going to upend this system. Uh the jury's out on that because I. don't know how I feel these days. We can. get into that if you need to if we want. to, but um. uh he's an outsider personality and I. thought he was going to really reset the. system. And And there are, you know, good things. that are happening. You know, if I were. to grade him, I would probably give him. a C+ or a B-. Um he's certainly better.

than, you know, what was happening under. Biden. Um I was still in the military. when Biden was in charge, and it was. awful, to say the least. Um you know, >> What were the problems? >> Oh my goodness. Um. books that general officers were being. told to read and that I as an advisor. were being told to read. Books like White Rage. Like understanding why you're a problem, uh you as a white man are a problem in. the modern-day military because um. this whole thing's built on systemic. racism. You have inbuilt implicit bias.

that you can't escape even if you wanted. to or you recognized it. >> It's woke politics. >> Yeah, it was woke politics, and and it. was um and it was uh you know, I would. sit there and say, you know, all of the friend All the people that I. know who've died during this war, not. all of them, but 80% of them, and the. numbers bear this out when you look at. them, they're all white guys from the. middle of the country who were on their. farms or, you know, not all of them, 80%. of them. I think the numbers bear out. about 80% of them. Were these guys from the Midwest or.

these places where they didn't really. have a lot going, and they went off to. fight a war that we probably shouldn't. have been fighting in the first place, especially in Iraq, and they died for. their cause, and uh and now you're. saying that those people who make up the. majority of the combat deaths are. somehow part of this problem, and that. other people aren't benefiting from it? Um I don't believe Race to me is. disgusting, even to talk about someone's. race, even, you know, on both sides of. the spectrum. When they were, you know, electing that. Supreme Court justice, I can't remember.

her name right now off the top of my. head just cuz I'm a little nervous. still. Um. she was black, and they were ta-. >> Ketanji Brown Jackson. >> Yeah, they were talking about how it's. historic because she's black, and Biden. had said he's going to hire a black. woman to do this job. If I had worked my. whole life to do something, but now I'm. only being elevated to this next. position because of my gender and the. color of my skin, I would turn that job down so fast. because that's not what I want to be. known for. These are immutable. characteristics that I'm not in control. of. I wasn't I didn't choose to be born.

white or blue eyes. I didn't choose to. be born in a trailer park in the middle. of nowhere without a dad at five. I didn't choose any of those things. I. don't see how I benefit from these. things at the individual level. And you. know, the individual level of analysis. for me is really the only the way to. evaluate someone for their plusses and. their minuses. And anything beyond that. to me is discriminatory on its face. >> Of course. >> It's just a great way to control people. because you pit people against each. other that way and so it's just an. awesome way that they can stay in.

control and make everybody. walk on eggshells and think that, you. know, victimized people in order to get to. their position and they have to be. shameful of who they are that they had. no control over. >> It also gives people an easy rubric to. judge other people. >> Yeah. Because nothing's easy really and it. gives them like white guy bad. >> Mhm. >> You know, black guy good. Chinese guy, as long as he's not applying to the. college I want to get into, he's good. >> Right. >> Um. and and it gives peop- people want easy. answers really at the end of the day.

They want to be told the easy rubric to. navigate life because really none of. it's easy and it requires discipline. like you said before. Um and thought and. and and so that it was that stuff in the. military. I remember getting told. in an in an equal opportunity briefing. we were getting, um. it doesn't matter what you meant when. you said what you were saying. It only matters what the person felt. when you said it. >> They said that in a military briefing? >> a military equal opportunity briefing.

So and and the example they gave was if. a woman walks into the like we worked. with a lot of civilians at this. at this military organization where. we're developing these um, offensive cyber capabilities. A lot of. aliens in there. And uh, so if, you know, woman X walks. in today and she's got a dress on and. the thought in your head is, I'd like to. get my wife that dress or something like. it or find out where she bought it. And you just say, "That's a nice dress.". Anyway, here's the TPS reports. If she heard.

something sexual or didn't like the. connotation or whatever, there's going to be an investigation. You're going to be pulled out of that. office. This is all going to happen despite what. you meant. So, the idea probably was. good. We want to prevent. sexual harassment inside of the office. Um, >> But it was weaponized. >> But but it was weaponized and it was. carried out in a way where it's only. about how people feel and not what a. reasonable person standard would be in a. particular situation. And from the time I joined the military. until that time we'd been at war. My.

entire time in the military we're at. war. Um, I deployed throughout my. career. And I wouldn't say that I was a war. horse. I was not a long tabber. I was. not a cool guy kicking in doors. It was. my job with the as the guy with, you. know, tape over his glasses. to point out the door for someone else. and say, "Bad guy's in there.". Um, so I was not, you know, a super. badass in that regard. I was a nerd for. super badasses. And um, but we also all engaged in. gallows humor and we would, you know, the jokes and stuff. Even someone Even.

someone who had recently died we'd make. a joke about. It's because you have this. tremendous. uh, pressure. and comedy is the relief valve for that. in a lot of ways. >> Yeah, of course. >> And but then someone would overhear that. joke or something and now you're looking. down the barrel of a 15-6, which is a. military investigation. And all of these things that could. permanently impact your life in a way. and give you a scarlet letter to where. you could never be employed again or do. anything ever again because you were.

simply trying to relieve some pressure. or you were trying to find what out. where to buy your wife at next dress and. now your life's being ruined, and I know. guys who suffered under that sword. Like, I wouldn't name them, but I know. guys who, you know, their career met a. terminal end because of a dumb joke or. something. It's like, you can't be. expected to go out and shoot people in. the face. and then be sensitive to someone's. feelings an hour later. >> Right. >> It's just It doesn't It does not work. Now, should you talk to that guy and. say, "Hey, you know, you made woman X.

feel so-and-so. Be more cognizant of. that whenever you're around her in the. future.". >> You should also have a rational. discussion with the woman. And what did. he ask you? He said, "Where did you get. that dress? It's very lovely. I'd like. to get one for my wife.". Why were you upset at that? Like, what. Does this Is this rational? Like, how. You can't be in an office if you were. that sensitive. >> Like, it's one thing if the guy said, "I'd like to get you out of that dress.". >> well, for sure. Now we're. >> Now you're in a different world. >> 100% 100%. >> Right. But if someone says, "You look.

great.". You know, "Have you lost weight? You. look fantastic." That's the That's a. compliment. >> Yes. >> And if someone gets upset, "I felt. sexually objectified. I felt harassed.". Like, okay, he just said you look great. >> Yeah. >> That's it. >> Healthy. >> It's not, "You look great. I'd like to. get you naked." Now we've crossed the. Rubicon, right? Now we're into Right. >> For sure. >> But just, "You look great." or "I like. your dress.". That's Like, if you said that to a man, like, "Hey, great suit.". >> Yeah. >> And he's like, "I need to file a. complaint.". >> Yeah. Right. >> "I need to file a complaint.".

>> Yeah, you've trimmed up, Joe. You're. looking good. >> "Looking great, Bill. Like, oh my god, I'm being harassed. I need to like. complain.". >> during the Biden administration. >> [ __ ] crazy. >> That would have worked. >> That's so crazy. >> the other thing that they were doing. this briefing, which is where I kind of. you know, the last couple of years of my. military career, I got in trouble a. couple of times, or I should say called. down. I was a senior I was a CW4. I was. one rank from the top. I was advising. two-star generals, colonels um on very. important matters. I wasn't high. I was. a I wasn't high in the in the dominance.

hierarchy, but I was adjacent to people. who were as an advisor. And um. uh. the the amount of. in this briefing in particular, um they. had gotten into uh you know, it's bad. that there are so many white people. Uh this I'm doing high points here, but. we need more diversity. I was part of a. accepted career program that they were. starting to call like the old white boys. network because most of the people So, the the requirements for the for this.

network were you had to speak a couple. languages. You needed an engineering degree or some. kind of demonstrated engineering. background. Uh you had to have deployed. Um. they wanted you to speak the language. very well. They wanted you to be able to. go through these engineering courses, these other things. And and what happens naturally is you. now need people who are interested in. engineering, all right? So, you've got. somebody who's maybe more constrained in. their thinking. You need somebody who. speaks languages. Well, now they also.

need to be kind of um you know, speak. French speak Russian whatever it was. So, they had to have studied or lived in. an area and done this. And they need to. be able to go through these crazy. tactical and strategic strategic types. of courses. By virtue of those things, you're going. to get men. And and there are were a lots of women, but then there'll be more white men. And. it's. it's not because the the pool presented. itself that way. Now, you have to. extract from that pool. And so, in this briefing when they were talking.

about like the old white boys network or. how we need to change things, I said, you know, do you realize that most men. are have more in common. um than most women? Or like if there's a. if if if I if I say I need more. diversity in a particular room, if you. said diversity of thought, I'd be fine. with that. But but Joe and you know, random black guy in the in the same. program in the same office have far more. in common than the white woman. But if all But what you're saying is.

these people need to have all separate. different colors and different and. different like all of this needs to be. this way. It's going to naturally. present itself that way because men in. the military generally are disagreeable. Men in the military who like engineering. are generally hyper disagreeable. And. and the the only difference between. these two people is the pigment of their. skin. So this fake diversity quota that. they're putting on top of us doesn't. achieve anything other than giving some. officer a bullet on their OER. And you know, I got pulled into the.

office afterward. I said what way more. than that, but essentially afterwards. they're like, "Hey Chief, you can't uh. you can't say that in those briefings. Like the way that you were getting. animated in there and what you're saying. and what you're doing like. uh yeah, this is not going to fly.". And this was like 2018 or 2019 or. something. >> Yeah, just trying to be rational and say. that there's there's more difference in. groups than there is between groups. And that the similarities in the way. that things stack up. You recruit from a. pool of volunteers and candidates. If. I'm recruiting from a pool of volunteers.

and candidates who are 80% male and. white, I have to expect that the. selected individuals are going to be. male and white. The majority of people. who join the military I don't control. this. I'm just as an engineer I'm. looking at statistics. >> Also, if you want a highly functional. productive group, it's got to be based. on meritocracy. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. >> Anything other than that is literally a. threat to national security. >> you're you're denigrating lethality. >> Yeah. >> The role of the army is to deter war. through exuding superior military.

fighting and technology. And when. deterrence fails to win. That's it. It the those are the those are the two. things that we need to do with our. military. It needs to look like the guy. in the playground who you would not muck. about with. And if you were to muck with. him, he will beat you senseless. That's. it. Now, whether or not we should be. using that all the time or how we use it. or that's a separate question. But the. entity itself needs to comport itself in. this way, otherwise you are endangering. this this truly special experiment,

which at least in its beginnings valued. the individual. It valued individual. rights and states rights. And it and it. and and and. and the founders and this was another. thing I said in that briefing was the. founders knew, yes, they were all slave. holders, but they knew that the Constitution and. the Bill of Rights and the Declaration. of Independence would eventually lead to. a system where we had to acknowledge. these people as people. And we fought a. civil war where a million white dudes.

died. to see this experiment through. The. scaffolding was there. You have to look. at the things the zeitgeist of the time. If they had just said, "No, everyone's. going to be uh free. There will be no. slaves." You would have never gotten. ratification through the Southern. states. But they knew that there were and when. you read the Federalist papers, they. knew that they were erecting this. system. And when you look at Thomas. Jefferson and some of these other great. thinkers who yes, they owned slaves, I. get it. Um. they knew what they were building and. they knew that what what would. ultimately terminate in. And then we had.

a civil war where we destroyed our. country from the inside to see this. dream come about. And now we're just. going to all go back and say they're all. slave owners. Like I know this has all. been said here a million times, but this. stuff animates me because it's built. with blood and treasure. >> Well, it's also you can't judge people. from the past based on the standards of. the present. >> For sure. >> Because culture changes, people. understand things better, we have a. a much greater recognition of what was.

wrong with things 100 years ago, 200. years ago. And I'm sure in the future. we're going to look back on today with. the same lens. There's It's just always. works that way. >> know Joe had a gas-powered car? >> Exactly. That kind of stuff. Yeah. >> Did you know that? >> You consumed more, you flew more, you. ate more meat, you did whatever you did, you were a problem. >> He was a problem. >> Yeah. >> And and now why would we ever, like I'm. voting to get rid of the Joe Rogan. experience from the national archives, cuz he drove a gas car?

>> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Like someone, you. know, stores your stuff for profundity's. sake for the future to hear about this, you know, I I I've always loved your podcast, Joe, and it was because you're a genuinely. curious person, and I'm not kissing your. ass right now. You're a genuinely. curious person that was saying things. that were not in the current zeitgeist. at the time, and you refused to. apologize for it. And it it it led it, you know, led to a lot of great things, but it led to the an updating of the. system, and you did it with dialogue, with the dialgos, with, you know, two.

people trying to learn things about each. other, and it led to an updating of the. system. I think it's very important for. culture to have free and open dialogue. so we can update our system, so bad. ideas can die, so we don't have to die. instead of our bad ideas. >> Yeah. >> Cuz if I can't express a bad idea, I. have to act it out. And if I act out the bad idea, it could. kill me. >> And the celebration of good ideas. >> And the celebration of good ideas. And. uh it's just really there's just been. such a weird inversion in politics where.

the free. hippy loving liberals of yesteryear are. now the ones telling you what words you. can use, there are no borders, all of. these crazy things. Um I and I always. say to people, I said it to Andy on Sam. Seder last podcast with him, I'm like a. 1996 Bill Clinton Democrat. If you go. watch his State of the Union and he. talks about lowering debt, getting out. of debt actually, working with Newt. Gingrich to get out of debt, um securing. the borders, making work and education.

freely accessible, um. I'm voting for that guy. >> I know, isn't it crazy that I mean. that's why the problem of labels doesn't. work, ideological labels, because if you. go back far enough and look at Clinton. for example, he's one of the best one. And by the way, did balance the budget. >> Yeah, he did. >> did. He had a surplus when he left the. office. Amazing. >> did a [ __ ] amazing job. It's all he. got his dick sucked. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Who didn't? Back then, that's the other. thing. Judging people by the standards. of the past, you know, JFK doesn't look.

so good in the Me Too movement, you. know? You know, I mean, he would have. got canceled. It's like you you have to. recognize that those this ideological. bubble that we find ourselves in left. versus right, Bill Clinton does not fit. in that. Bill Clinton is securely on the. right in in terms of, you know, 1996. standards applied to today. >> He would never want to hear that. >> No, he would never want to hear that. because he's kind of shifted with the. zeitgeist because that's what you kind. of have to do if you want to stay in. your party and be protected by your.

party. >> Yes. >> You know, but he was essentially he had. a lot of the I mean, we've talked about. this before. We've played clips of. Hillary Clinton from 2008 and she's more. MAGA than MAGA. >> I know. >> You know, her her take on the border was. like hardcore. >> Yeah. >> Was hardcore. If you've been convicted. of a crime, get out. You know, if you. stay here, pay a stiff penalty and you. have to get in line and you have to. learn English and everybody cheers. >> Yeah. >> Like that is a hardcore right-wing 2026.

perspective. >> Obama did it too in 2012. >> Absolutely. And Obama deported more. people than Trump did. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by. ThreatLocker. Data breaches are. happening more frequently than ever and. it's not because of sophisticated. tactics. Attackers are using the same methods and. exploiting the same vulnerabilities. What's changed is speed and scale. Reacting to breaches can leave you. exhausted, constantly chasing threats. instead of preventing them. That's where.

ThreatLocker comes in. With ThreatLocker. zero trust, you only allow what you need. and block everything else by default. You control what runs, when, where, and. how, blocking ransomware before it. executes. Because no matter how you. respond, a fast response simply isn't. fast enough. Visit threatlocker.com/jre. to learn more. >> And and it's just I'm not saying like my. thought is always I'm always updating.

I'm always updating my systems. I'm. always getting told things. I always. have a pre-dis- pre-prescribed way of. looking at the world that I'll have a. good conversation with someone and I'll. update my system. But generally, my. principles are in place. And when you. watch these people who get into their. 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and their core. foundational principles are changing, it. really should give you cause for. concern. >> Mhm. >> Because like you were saying this that. this time and now you're saying this at. that time, it's like generally my rubric.

that I don't think will change about. myself is I'm fervently for the. individual, and I'm fervently for truth, and and that we can that the that the. world you you should measure it and look. at not what your intentions are, but. what the outcomes are. And and then evaluate the system and how. it scales based on those outcomes. Those. are that's principally if you were I try. to live that standard up to myself. I. fall fall short of that standard all the. time, but I try to. >> a human. >> I try to live by that standard and I I. feel like that will always be me even.

into my 90s. >> Like unless something goes horribly. wrong, right? >> Right. Right. And and I've pretty much been here. since, you know, the past seven or eight. years or so. Like even into my 30s, I I. wasn't quite sure who I was um as a. human. And uh but I'm I'm pretty, you. know, steadfast in that. And the amount. of opportunities. and the amount of goodness in my life. and my children and and my home and the. things I've been able to do have really. been born out of that last seven years.

of. the truth's going to be the top of the. of the decision matrix for me, the top. of the hierarchy for me. I'm going to try not to cut corners. whenever I can and help good people. around me and and and the truth is the. way that I'll organize and and function. myself in life and that I will try to. only judge people as individuals. And. the world, you know, these are Christ's. teachings from 2,000 years ago. And but. the world for me has just opened up in a. way that I could have never predicted.

using a very simple rubric. It's not. easy, but it's simple. And if more people just took those and. this isn't me. I didn't come up with. this. This is the result of. you know, watching a bunch of. experiments go bad, but if people just. adopted that very simple thing and just. tried it for 3 months, you'll feel. better about yourself, you'll feel. better about the world, you feel better. about the people proximally around you. It might make you hate the government. more. >> Yeah. >> But uh. Um. >> Well, I don't think if you don't hate. the government, I think you're not.

paying attention. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean. >> When you were working in cyber defense, like what what. >> Cyber offense. >> Cyber offense. What was the the primary. function? Like what did you do? >> Um so in the beginning it. I I have no short answers and I. apologize. In the beginning. >> short answers. >> Oh yeah, I just I I always feel like I'm. >> I like a good long answer. Don't worry. about that. >> When I joined the military, I was in. signals intelligence. Um and essentially learning the ins and.

outs of radars, how radars work, what. they do, um. how they function. >> Did you guys ever see any weird [ __ ]. like UFO [ __ ]. >> I wish I had. I really do. >> you had, too. >> Yeah, I really do. Um I was more in the. signals intelligence side of the house. um focusing first on electronic signals. or emanations from radars, mapping them. so that, you know, if we were going to. go do the ground invasion and there was. going to be some air support going in. first and blowing [ __ ] up. We would tell. them, "Hey, there's a man packable SA-7.

here. There's a SA-10 here. There's this. here. There's that." And then telling. these pilots so they didn't get shot out. of the sky. >> Mhm. >> Um I quickly when the war kicked off, that became irrelevant because there was. no, you know, surface-to-air missiles, surface-to-surface missiles in Iraq. We. had knocked them all out in the first. few weeks. So then it shifted to communications. intelligence. So I kind of retrained on communications. intelligence and that was at that time. off of cell phones, off of push-to-talk. radios, repeaters, um long-haul networks, terrestrial.

networks, extraterrestrial networks. And. what I mean by that is the stuff the. satellites in the sky. Um and doing analysis on those to try to. inform the the the what we call the. common operating picture of the. battlefield for a combatant commander. So combatant commander wants to know. where the bad guys are, what they're. doing, what they're saying. To the To. the amount that we could, my job was to. um. come up with solutions and conduct, you. know, um. passive and active um signals analysis. on these things and then inform the. commander so that we could, you know,

mitigate risk. It was all about. mitigation of risk. Um This is 2008 or so. I'd been doing. this for about 7 years. 8 years. And um from there it shifted to. the phones getting smart. And. essentially it went from you walking. around with a 2G phone or a 3G phone. that had limited compute capability to. now there's robust compute capability. with the advent of like the iPhone. And. now it's like, well, now we've got to. get after guys who are, you know, essentially walking around with a. computer we could never have envisioned.

20 years ago in their pocket with all of. this capability cuz the military and our. and our our forces that we're fighting. against, it all comes down to our ability to. shoot, move, and communicate. Communication being the part that I was. focused on. So as the advent of the. iPhone and those things came out, the. army realized we didn't have a a. computer network operations MOS. We We. have a um offensive um cyber component. We didn't have a defensive cyber. component. So, we kind of I was there. for at the ground floor when we were. building out these new MLSs now that are.

all over the military. But at that time, there was a thought going into you know, we need to have people who know how to. be on it operators. Ethical hacking as. paradoxical as that sounds. That's how. the lawyers called it that. So, you're. attacking at the end of the day, but. ethical hacking because you've got the. backing of the US government. And so, we. set up that framework and really started. launching into operations you know, 2006, 7, 8 all the way into my last. deployment in 2017 or 2017.

It was all focused on computer network. operations and how they lash up with. terrestrial networks. How do we exploit. all of that was one facet of my job. And. uh um. Your question was how did I. >> Yeah. >> get into all of that? And that that was. that that was the um. >> How do you get into it? What was What. What it What was like What was the. operational aspect of it? Like how did. you actually. What did you do? >> Uh going So, you know, there's there's. I'll stick to terms that are more um. generally understood by the public, but.

learning how to do things like war. driving, um collecting on networks, Wi-Fi, you. know, endpoints, um cell phones, uh understanding the ins and outs of. them, understanding how to do forensic. analysis of them. So, after there was an. operation and a bunch of gorillas had. been sent in to kill a bad guy, um we could derive maximum intelligence. value from the hand from the handset to. plan other operations. Um and so, you. know, it would be passive. um monitoring of networks to inform the.

intelligence picture which would lead to. either combat operations or active. computer network operations where now. it's like, well, there's you know, a uh. I don't know a uh. an Iraqi or an Afghani router that. hasn't been patched in 3 years and we. think we can either write or find a zero. day which is just an exploit of those. routers. where. um. we can. muck with their router in a way where. they think they're getting a good. information and they're not or they're.

or. erecting other things. um to. uh mitigate risk for the commander. And. so um that really. you know, exploded at that point and. between that and human intelligence. which is kind of the um. the actual gathering of intelligence. from other people. You know, you would call it spy or you. know, James Bond but that's James Bond. was a horrible spy. Um. >> Was he? >> I mean, yeah, you know, your job's to. remain. >> anonymous. >> anonymous and you're walking into a.

casino and there's Goldfinger calling. you by your first and last name. It's not a great look. Um. you know, you generally don't want to be. sleeping with your sources or. um you know, using your real name or what whatever. So, human intelligence and then my focus. for the last 10 years was how does. signals intelligence computer network. operations um become a force multiplier. for people conducting overt and. clandestine operations. um throughout the theater at that time. uh my you know, my deployments and my.

time was spent in Iraq, Afghanistan, um. Africa, Northern Africa and then the a. lot of people don't know it but we were. in active combat operations in the. Southern Philippines as well for uh a. fair amount of time. I want to maybe say. 7 or 10 years we were in combat. operations. >> In the Southern Philippines. My first. deployment to the. um um Southern Philippines was uh 2007. >> Who were we doing operations against? >> So, um there were terrorist elements. down there that were traveling back and.

forth from Pakistan and Afghanistan. and there was a terrorist organization. down there called the Abu Sayyaf group. and uh there were other ones as well. Jemaah Islamiyah I think was the name of. the other one. And uh they were. conducting their own terrorist. anti-Christian operations in the. southern part of the Philippines in the. in the southern part of the Philippines. I don't Can I say it? Can I say the. word? What do you mean? Jamie, can you. pull up a map of the Philippines? Can. you pull it up? >> Oh, say that. Say that term. Yeah, pull. it up, Jamie. >> Uh so, there's what's called the.

autonomous region of Muslim Mindanao, which is the southern part from like a. place called Zamboanga down to Sulu or. Jolo Island. Um and there's. >> They It's a funny joke because if you. zoom into Zamboanga, which is. >> God, look at how many islands are there. >> it's Go down to the south there. See. Zambo- Go down right there. Right right. zoom right there on that island. Now, move to Sorry, now move to the. southwest. See that penis? >> Mhm. >> At the tip of that penis is called. Zamboanga.

>> Mhm. >> All of our combat operations Now, if you. zoom out a little bit more. and and pan more south. and zoom out just a little bit more so. the joke hits. All that sperm. south of the tip of the uh the Zamboanga. City. this their terrorist operations in here. Now, if you go to that main island. called Sulu. or is Jolo Island, that's where I was. On this tiny island out in the middle of. nowhere and on that there's a mountain. >> all the Philippines? >> Well, no. I mean, this is all the. Philippines down here, yeah.

>> Wow. >> is called There's a mountain in there. I. think it was called Mount Tumatok or. something like that on the near on the. eastern part of the island called Luke. It's called Luke. >> Yeah, so there's. >> mountains There's a mountainous region. there. There are a bunch of terrorists. up there. They were killing people in. the area, conducting bombings. They were. getting trained. Um in fact, there was a. guy and I believe I'm going to get his. name wrong perhaps, but I believe his name was either. Isnilon Hapilon. or Oh, it's Jamar Patek. Jamar Patek. He was actually arrested outside of.

Osama bin Laden's compound the day after. he was killed. We were trying to kill. him on that island. Or in and around that island is where we. were trying to find him and kill him. Uh. so they're terrorist facilitators. Um. they did the USS Cole bombing. What's. >> you zoom back out? I want to see the. Philippines one more time, like all the. islands. When you zoom all the way out. It's so nuts how many islands there are. >> Yeah, so up north up north of Manila is. mostly the Christian. um population and as you get down south. it's the autonomous region of Muslim. Mindanao.

>> Mhm. >> And that is all of where these terrorist. operations were happening. Um and I. believe that mostly pulled out of there. There might be still some people in. Zamboanga. I'm not sure anymore cuz it's. been 5 years. 4 years since I retired. But um yeah, we. were doing counterinsurgency operations. down there and guys died down there and. there were combat operations and uh I. was out there um I was in a tactical. military intelligence battalion and I. was attached to the first special forces. group. And we were down there a couple of times. and uh a lot of people don't even know.

about it, so. >> Yeah, I never heard about it. >> Yeah, so uh anyway Um. >> This I'm sorry to. sidebar, but I'm so stunned at how many. islands are in the Philippines and how. spread out it is. >> Yeah, it's it's insane. And the the the. thing about it is is I'd go to all of. these little outposts and these out. islands. We were always debriefing these. guys and I'm going to get these terms. wrong, so I'm sure there'll be people in. the comments but I think they're called. bongarays or something like that, but. they were like these mayors of each one. of these little islands. And there'd be terrorists in and around.

those areas and we'd try to make friends. with these guys so they give us some. information. Um and every one of those places was. absolutely beautiful. Like you'd go. there and be like, man Hilton could turn. this into something in a short order. >> Right. >> You know, when you're out of these. places, beautiful beach, beautiful lush. jungles, the best swimming water. >> Nicest people, too. >> Oh, the. >> Filipino. >> Filipino people are some of my favorite. people, man. Like you want to talk The. guys that we worked with out there, they're uh scout I think they're called. scout sniper, scout rangers. And they. were a special I I they were like their.

special forces. We go to the range with. these guys and show them stuff and. they're the most um. ride or die type of guys you'll ever. meet in your life. Like, you know, so-and-so said this about you last week. and I could kill him. It's like, "No, dude, it's cool." It's like, "Don't. worry about it." Like. >> Fun fact, they're some of the best pool. players on Earth, too. >> Oh, really? >> Great Some of the greatest pool players. of all time came out of the Philippines. >> great people. I mean, I just the people. down there were fantastic. And it was. awful because those guys would be. bombing churches Christian churches and. stuff like that and uh. they're doing uh counter operate like I.

said counter um. um. intelligence operations out there doing. intelligence operations collection to. inform that battle picture, but those. guys had direct links with Osama bin. Laden and other people. >> Wow. I had no idea. >> Yeah, right after we Like I said, I. think it was I think if you look it up, I think his name is um Patec, p a t e c. p a t e k. And he was arrested outside of Osama bin. Laden's compound and we'd been chasing. him in the Philippines. >> Wow. >> Cuz we thought he was still down there. Um there was another guy that we I. believe we killed him. His name was.

Albader Parad. Um but yeah, my job was not I always say. this on podcasts because the veteran. community's wild right now. They love to. cut each other down right now. There's. something weird going on where Like. obviously lying. Yeah, call the people. out. I prefer to call people out. face-to-face. Um but uh I always make. sure people know I was not a cool guy. Like sometimes I got to dress like one, you know, for a few years I didn't wear. any uniforms and I got to grow my beard. out and act like a cool guy, but I was. really a nerd for cool guys. I've.

literally got myself down in the in in. the holo or in Afghanistan or anywhere. else and tape around my glasses and you. know, Pez dispenser and my radio and. collection equipment looking like a true. blue American nerd, but I was not the. guy who kicked the door in. I was always. the guy who pointed the door out. So, I'd be safe in the Humvee in the back, you know, eating an MRE and somebody. that looked like another gorilla, you. know, like a Andy Stone for Tim Kennedy. or someone like that would be like, "Is. that the house?" I'd be like, "Pretty. sure that's the house. You guys might. want to be safe, but go ahead. I'll be.

in the Humvee. I'll be out here or I'll. be in an airplane above, you know." Um. and uh yeah, it was. it was. Being born in North Dakota and and uh. you know, my mother, single mother after. she left that first guy, um trailer. house in the middle of this little town. called Cavalier, North Dakota, I had no. options. I was a horrible student. And. uh what did. >> That's crazy that you're so smart, but. you were horrible student. >> Yeah, I wouldn't I'd call myself curious. before I'd call myself smart. But um.

uh you know, my mother, you know, I I. don't know if you remember you would. remember this, but maybe other people my. age, you know, you get these Scholastic book. order forms that you'd bring home from. school and you could order books. >> Mhm. >> There'd always be on the back page. there'd always be like little cool. stuff, like you could get like, you. know, a pair of gloves or a hat or. something. Anyway, one time there was a. um a coil radio that you could order. with with an earpiece and you put this. coil radio together and with an. earpiece, no battery. It was just the.

electromagnetic radiation would would. would um activate the coil and the coil. would you could listen to radio chatter. >> Really? With no battery? >> Yeah, yeah, just tiny little little. radio. >> How did it What was the power? >> The electromagnetic radiation. And you. would just kind of like a record a. like, you know, how you you. hit a record? >> Electromagnetic radiation would hit the. coil and the coil would feed up to an. amplifier or up to an earpiece and the. earpiece you could hear chatter and you. could. >> Did the earpiece have a battery? >> Nothing I don't think anything had a.

battery on it at the I think it was just. a. >> Wow. >> I I could be mistaken, but I don't. believe there was. >> Powered by electromagnetic radiation. >> Yeah, I mean, you can look it up, Jamie, if you want. Sorry to say that again, but. >> Tighten that thing down. That thing's. driving me crazy. >> Yeah, sorry. But like here or here? >> Right here. Look at my finger. >> It's right here. >> Yeah, I've been meaning to do that like. literally when everybody uses this. [ __ ] thing. It's wobbling around. ready to fall off. >> if you look up coil coil radio with. small earpiece, I could be wrong. I. don't remember there being a battery on. it. >> Electromagnetic radiation powered it.

That's bananas. >> Yeah, so kind of like a. same thing with like, you know, not the. same wattage, but a microwave, right? Um. sends power through the air. >> Right, but it uses. >> But it uses power to send it. >> but. I could be wrong, but at any rate, that. was the first time I got a radio and I. was hearing things. and I'd put it together and I'm. listening to things and. >> Like what kind of things? >> Uh HF radio, VHF radio, people talking, that type of stuff. And um it was just and then I found out.

how to get an antenna to make the. antenna larger and started ordering. auxiliary pieces for it. Then what. really changed me was my mother let me. get a My mother and I would clean. houses. She was a waitress, but we also. would go around and clean houses and. there was a lawyer that we worked for, his name was Phil Culp. And um. he had a old 286 SX IBM. and it was just sitting in his basement. and I told my mom, I was like, "Hey, if. I clean it for like a month, can I have. that computer? Like he doesn't use it. He's got a new 486 up in his place.

here." And he instantly said I could. have it and then that started me down. the computer networking realm and like. look how could I get this 286 act like a. 386 or how could I force it to run. Windows or how do I update the memory? How do I do these things? In this little town, Edinburgh, North. Dakota, there was a guy who had a. computer store in a basement of an old. general store and his name was Jeff. Munson Broten. And I would go there and ask him. questions about computers and just start. learning like ins and outs on how do I. update the RAM? How do I get memory. better? How do I augment the storage? Uh how how could I force this thing to.

run Windows 3.1 so I could have a GUI. instead of using command line? >> Um GUI mean graphic user interface. >> user interface, yeah. Yeah, sorry. >> It's okay. >> And um so that kind of started me on. that and that for me, like I said, um I. had all kinds of problems with attention. deficit disorder and not being able to. pay attention. That was the only time I. could I would go for. >> Yeah, I I don't believe in ADHD. I I. might be wrong. I think it's a.

superpower. >> I mean, it's certainly I remember I. would spend 2 days working on a problem. and not sleeping. >> That's what I'm saying. I think it's a. superpower. I think it just keeps you. from being interested in things you're. not interested in. >> Yeah, I have a theory on that too that I. can get into after, but. that started me down that road, but in. school I couldn't pay attention. There was this teacher, I always tell. the story, it's a great teacher. She's. still around. Her name is Connie Trenbeth. And she was my English teacher. literature teacher or something like. that. She might not even remember the.

story, but here I am telling it on your. podcast. I remember it. Um, she kept me. after class once and she goes, "You. know, I knew your dad, Bill. And you know, your your uncles were all. smart and your my grand my my great. uncle has an engineering wing of a. school named after him out in western. North Dakota. And she goes, "All these. guys were thinkers and your dad did all. this great stuff and built all this. stuff and. uh, essentially what she was telling me. is you're a waste of life. Like. Like all you do is you come in here, you.

disrupt the class, you upset people, no. one can talk. >> Sounds like me. >> You're trying to dominate every. conversation, but when you know, I you. had written one paper on something that. interested you and I don't remember what. it was. And she's like, "That was a. wonderful paper. >> Yeah. >> She's like, "If you could just do that. every time.". And. I. was not hearing it. Like I remember the. conversation cuz I actually remember her. I think she said waste of life. I think. she actually said that. Like you're. wasting like you're obviously.

My RP my CPU clocks high. I'm always. thinking even when I'm not thinking and. even as we're sitting here talking, I'm. thinking about other things or stuff I. want to do when I get back to my. computer or stuff I want to do for my. business. And um. And so I joined the military and the the. absurdity of life is this. I joined to. be a military policeman, which I. absolutely would have hated. Um all of them got turned into infantry. people or would stand gate guard, which. is a needed function in the military, but it doesn't apply to my personality. But when I went to the recruiter station.

out in Far Minneapolis, I think it was, I was a bonehead and I forgot my. driver's license. And they're like, "Well, and I was. supposed to leave." And at this time I. had dumped my girlfriend, told everyone. goodbye, I had wiped the dust off my. boots, like left Cavalier, North Dakota, and um. I was I was like, "Hey, uh. I'm not going back. So, whatever we got. to do right now.". And he's like, "Well, we can you can go. home, get your license cuz. the MEPS station was in Minneapolis.

Was it Fargo? It doesn't matter. It was. 5 6 7 hours away. And they're like, "Well, you're not. leaving today without a driver's. license.". So, I looked at my recruiter and I was. like, "I don't know what job you need to. get me into, but it needs to be a. different job." And they're like, "Well, you scored, you know, exceptionally high. in your general technical. um part of your ASVAB, which is like. understanding machines and objects and. stuff. So, we could get you into this like. intel job where you'd learn about radars. and stuff." And that immediately clicked. for me. And then he's like, "Well, we.

got to go brief you in this SCIF room. There's a you know, a secure. compartmented information facility. There's only one guy who's got a. clearance and he can brief you on the. job. And if you want that job, then you. can leave tomorrow." I instantly started. hearing like the James Bond music, you. know, yeah, I was like. And so, they walked me in this back. place and you know, nothing super crazy. and briefed me up on the job and I went. back out and I said, "Yeah, this is. actually the job for me." So, the. absurdity of life is me forgetting my. driver's license when I was 16. I was 16.

when I signed up. Um maybe 17. No, I was turning 17 that. December. When I signed up for the. military, um. I can connect with a string to. forgetting my driver's license to being. here with you today. >> You can you can sign up when you're 16? >> I I think I was turning 17. >> You can sign up when you I didn't even. know you could sign up when you're 17. >> my delayed entry program thing, um and I left a little bit before my. 18th birthday. So, I was graduated from. high school. But, um. yeah, you can sign up when you're 16, I. believe, as long as your parents sign.

the waiver. My mother signed the waiver. She was happy to get me out of that. trailer. Um so, uh yeah, I was 17, almost 18, when I left. >> out of that. >> Yeah, right there. So, that's all the. pieces. >> They call it a crystal radio now. >> Yeah, I was going to say crystal. controlled. >> What? That's a radio? What? >> is. That's actually the exact thing. That looks almost That is almost exactly. what it looked like. >> Slinky made it? >> bought the brand They just slid the. Slinky brand now bought this toy, but. there's a bunch of these all over the. internet, yeah. >> Wow. Make your own working radio without.

batteries. >> it uses a I was going to say crystal. controlled radio because it uses a. crystal diode. on it. >> What did you say, Tesla coil, Jamie? >> to Tesla coil. >> Oh. >> This guy's explaining it. So, this thing. has a kind of cool too. Let me find this. thing. Uh. a rocket radio they called, which is a. like further development this thing. It. attached to a phone. >> Huh. >> So, you plug that onto a phone cable. There's a picture of it somewhere on. here, but. um it explains like you're picking up.

There you go. >> Wow. >> No power. >> No battery or current needed, hence no. operating expense and long life. >> Yeah, this is almost. >> onto a phone. What year was this? >> Man, uh this is old. >> Yeah. >> So, it also shows here this is like. you're picking up power from a radio. tower. >> Yeah. Wow. >> The more powerful the signal, this is. kind of like what they're paying for. with the FCC. The more powerful your. radio tower, the longer and more people you can. reach. >> Crazy that has no battery.

>> And that's also why some radio signals. come in very well on your radio and some. don't and it's like dog [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> weak power. >> Yeah. And then the frequency modulation, like. amplitude modulation isn't as efficient. as frequency modulation when it comes to. for the vocoder to produce sound. Amplitude modulation travels farther, but it doesn't have the um the amount of. information. It's not modulated with a. those the carrier wave can't be. modulated with as much information as. you need. Whereas frequency modulation.

is much quicker, megahertz, and you can. amplitude and add more um um sound or. met more information, which is why it. sounds better. So FM sounds better, but. it doesn't travel as far. >> Right. I can imagine. >> worse. I always when I was training. people in the military on this I would. usually use the analogy of if a party's. happening next door, you can hear the. bass music, but you can't hear the. treble. You can hear the bass music. because that frequency travels farther. because it's lower in the frequency. band. >> Oh. >> But you can hear the treble because or.

you can't hear the treble, I'm sorry, because it's higher frequency and. there's more modulation. And so it it. disperses quicker and you can't hear it. as well. And it's the same thing with. like VLF comms coming off of like a. submarine can travel underwater for a. very long ways, but you can't put as. much information in them as you could if. you were doing, you know, VHF or UHF. comms where there's lots of modulation. >> Mhm. >> So it's the dispersal and you know, the a lot of my, you know, mid part of. my career was explaining this stuff to, you know, military guys who were trying.

to understand like here's how a cell. phone works and this is how frequency. works and this is how we send. information. And just kind of demysti-. demystifying, you know, how. you know, a GSM network works. essentially. >> of the things that I wanted to ask you. about that is when new technology is. emerging, how. how do you. how do you stay ahead of the ability to. extract information from this. technology, hack into networks.

before people understand the capability. >> You really can't. >> You really can't? >> the beauty of the free market is that. the innovation to perform the function. that you want someone to pay for will. always move faster than your ability to. exploit the technology. >> Then how do you explain things like. Pegasus? >> Well, I mean, something like Pegasus. Well, first off. >> Explain Pegasus to people that don't. know. >> It was a a persistent implant on cell. phones for people.

Um. >> Initially, it was you had to click it. It was a click exploit. >> was click a click and then it became a. non-click exploit. So, in other words, you had to interact something on the. phone in order to initialize and install. the implant. And then after and but the. reason why it was so good is because it. wasn't stored in the. um. it wasn't stored in the usual areas that. you would want a persistent imp- or. where you would have implant. For instance, uh. you know, you might want to put it in. the application layer of an app or.

something like that where there's a. binary that can run and execute commands. or functions. Um and so, they I won't get into the. very specifics of where and how they did. this because I'm not sure if I got this. information from the government or not, so I won't say it. But, they stored it. in a place where it wasn't normal. Um. and you can read papers on your own for. and look at the forensics of it and how. the actual implant was executed. But, it essentially, you know, allowed. people to own your phone. Um and and uh.

you know, was the kind of implant I only. dreamed of when I was helping develop my. own plans implants in the military. Mostly, what we would rely on is um you. know, zero-day architecture and looking. for something in a phone that either. they hadn't patched or that the phone. that you were looking at hadn't been. patched. So, phones as they have their. own red teams, are going through the the. phone for their own cuz they want to. sell a product that people will use and. people won't use stuff that can get. hacked. So, they'll do their own red.

teaming. and they'll discover like, oh, you know, we we on this router we developed, we. left this port open and it shouldn't. have been open. So, now we're going to. write a patch that will close that port. so that this port is no longer. accessible by guy like me, so I can't go. in there and and do something to this. particular type of router. Another great. thing, I'll say something good about the. administration, they're they're doing. some stuff right now to make sure that. we're getting rid of um Chinese. technology and Chinese um routers. And um um you know, there's a widespread. network of um uh there's the PLA has a.

and I can't remember the name of the. botnet, but they essentially implanted a bunch. of old unpatched routers to get access. to government and business. um. proximal people and it was widespread. and huge. And you know, they. looked like to me, I haven't read this anywhere, but if I. were looking at this implant and how it. was done, they were trying to really cause some. trouble. Um it was being placed at critical. places. Think power, think energy, think.

banking. Like they really wanted to cause some. ruckus. And I I've not been part of this. administration, so I'm not saying. anything classified for those of you who. are listening. And so, but there was a. decision to say, hey, we need to make. sure that these things get patched and. also that we're not bringing in um. architecture from the overseas because. they don't play by the same rules that. we at least say we play by. >> why they banned Huawei devices in the. United States. >> Yeah. Huawei had a phone that I was. really interested in back in the day. They had a Porsche design had partnered.

with Huawei and made this insane Android. phone. It was like the best camera, the. best battery. It was like really. high-level and I was like going to buy. it. And then all of a sudden they banned. all the Huawei phones. I was like, what's going on? And then, you know, I'd. heard some people say, "Oh, they're just. trying to stop competition. It's like. American companies are trying to stop. it." And then I I went into a deeper and. I said, "No, it seems like there's. third-party input on some of their. routers and some of their.

some of their network devices that they. had engineered in order to be able to. access them by third party. And this. because of. whatever, lack of understanding, lack of. knowledge of how these things are. constructed, the people that purchased. them didn't weren't weren't aware of. them. And these things had gotten into. place. And they had gotten into place in. universities, they gotten into place in. military establishments, they were using. them in cell phone towers that people. had, you know, inadvertently bought from.

China. >> Yep. >> And and that's really I mean, I can tell. you firsthand from having done some of. the forensic exploitation on this stuff. Another large part of my career I didn't. talk about was just on mobile forensics. and media forensics, which is essentially. you think of like CSI Miami or CSI. whatever the city was. There's a crime, someone was killed, you have forensics. that are doing forensics on like blood. and fingerprints and blood splatter and. all of that stuff. There's a whole. another part of that same forensics. branch that focuses on media forensics.

What was deleted off this phone at one. point? What remains on this phone? What. was it being used for? I would do this. in the military so that when we did do. an operation and I was part of some of. the largest ones ever done out in. Afghanistan, uh there would be treasure troves of. phones and all of these computers and. stuff like that. It was my job, and I. had a great team that worked for me, uh. in 20 my deployment in 2015, um we would go in afterwards, gather up. all of this stuff, and, you know, this. task force commander would literally be.

standing by, and we would say, "You. know, here's the intelligence that we've. derived. Here's the multi-point. analysis. Here You know, it was on this. hard drive. It was here. It was here. You know, there's a bad guy place out. here." And those guys be rolling like. within moments after the last operation. Like some operations we do where we'd be. rolling one after another target because. we were getting really good at media. forensics and the intelligence that was. there and then getting into active media. forensics, which is a different. discipline, but essentially. I I'll get it I can get into that later. if you want to, but um.

launching and and and doing these these. following operations off, you know, dumping the binary from a phone and. examining at the ones and zeros level to. say everything that was going on with. this thing or if it was a really high. like the organization that I worked for. at that time. uh did the analysis of the Osama bin. Laden media. And you know, at the on. that media we're doing far more than we. would for another piece of media and. that were, you know, x-raying it and. we're looking at maybe what the the disc. looked like before or what was destroyed. or reconstructing things, spending.

millions of dollars on that intelligence. analysis because we wanted to fully. understand everything that this guy was. involved in what he was doing and where. he was and who he was talking to. Um and so that was another part of my. career that I did for about 5 years or. so for about 5 years. >> on with the Huawei phones? Like what. were they doing with them? >> I mean they were they were they were. either some of them were coming out. implanted. In other words, there was. access built in for a foreign actor. And. then in other terms, other places with. routers with the ZTE stuff,

there were just things that you would. patch or that you would fix as a company. who is trying to protect the consumer. and create a product that would people. you would use and they weren't doing it. So they were creating persistent. backdoors either by actively placing. code on there that would allow, you. know, root access or they were leaving. things open, especially in Africa, like. the work that we you know, I was working. in Africa, the Chinese were just owning. Africa. They were just giving them. communications infrastructure. And uh they were doing that because they.

wanted their resources and they wanted. to know what these people were saying. and what they were doing. Um and so I'm a free market. real like I'm as free market as a guy. can get. I want the best people building. the best products and I want everyone to. be able to compete. But in that case, I. would never own a Huawei or a ZTE or. anything else. >> On a consumer level, what were they. doing with those phones? Like if they. had imported them to the United States, if they didn't have that ban, what would. have been the issue? >> Uh getting access to, you know,

mil any number of people that the. Chinese really want access to everybody. But you could start at the topical level. of just saying, you know, getting Joe. Rogan to use a ZTE would be that would. be my wet dream as a guy who used to do. this work back in the day cuz you're. talking to the president or you're. talking to this guy or that guy. And I can build out a network of. understanding who you're in contact. with, who you're talking to, what's. being talked about, but then also. finding out, you know, this person's. phone number and now doing a deep dive. on there. So, it's really about, you. know, getting all of that data and.

constructing an you know, an analyst. notebook essentially outline of who's. talking to who, who do we need to. implant. And it but it's for business as. well. Like they're really trying to go. they would want this in the hands of. somebody who's in charge of a business. cuz they want their IP. They would want. this in soldiers' hands so they would. know deployment dates or who's going. where and with who's doing what. They. want this in routers because um routers. are usually the most unpatched piece of. technology in that you're not. especially, you know, these days they're. more automated patching. But back in the day like you had to.

manually update a router and if you. didn't, well then you had potential. exploits that were sitting on that. router where I could gain access to your. the router in your home or I could gain. access to a BGP router which is like a. border gateway which is moving all of. the internet data where I could get. access to a microwave terminal, you. know, if you look at a cell phone, they've got the microwave terminals on. there that are sending information in. between them. If those are Chinese. parts that are either being used for the. processing, the CPU, or the physic the. physical infrastructure of that, the the.

products that they were putting out. would give me direct access to the. information that's being passed on those. terminals. So you're getting, you know, system level, root level access. through machinery, through communication. devices, and through things like routers. where you can know everything you want. to know about your enemy. >> Wow. And so as far as today's. technology, I see you you use an Android. phone. >> Mhm. >> Is there a phone that is more secure or. platform that is more secure? >> It all depends like.

I always take this from Thomas Sowell. There are no answers, there are only. trade-offs. So there's there's like the. way to answer that question would be is. like who are you? What are you trying to. do with your life? What are you talking. about on your phone? What are you doing. on your phone? You know, most these. phones if you're just an average. everyday citizen who's just going about. your job um. you know, the phones today are pretty. secure especially versus a few years. ago. Um if you're a reporter. it Now it come the nexus is do you trust. the government and do you trust Apple?

If you trust the government, you trust. Apple, then Apple's probably your best. bet. um for using an you know, there's. lockdown mode on an Apple phone or um. they used to call it back in the day I. think it was called reporter mode, but. there was way to ways to encrypt the. devices and to encrypt the chatter and. the um tunnel coming out of the phone, um the RF coming out of the phone and uh. you know. >> What is lockdown mode? >> There I don't know if that's exactly. what it was called or not cuz I've never. really used Apple just for my own. personal reasons. >> What personal reasons?

>> I don't trust Apple. >> How so? >> Uh they are more interested in. monetizing people's data than they are. providing them capability. So every time you take a photo, every. time you upload a document, every time. you talk to it, every time it asks you. about your you know, you you'll get. these questions where it says uh if your. password's lost, you can back up your. password in these ways. Tell us where. you were born, tell us your mom's maiden. name, tell us your mom's this, your. mom's that. >> Lockdown mode is extreme optional. protection and only be used if you.

believe you may be personally targeted. by a highly sophisticated cyber attack. Most people are never targeted by. attacks of this nature. When iPhone is. in lockdown mode, it will not function. as it typically does. Apps, websites, and features will be strictly limited. for security and some experiences will. be completely unavailable. >> Yeah, so when I was at advising guys. back in the day on going out and doing. like a high-risk source meet, so you're. going to go meet, you know, a spy for. another country and you're a military. and you're debriefing someone or doing. something, I would always tell them to. use lockdown mode. I knew that it did.

those things. I didn't know if that was. the term or if I thought that was. >> you still send iMessages? >> You can still text and call. >> Text and call, that's it. >> Yeah, but there's other things that you. can't do. And so, when you're. >> Well, like Meta just recently announced. they're no longer encrypting your DMs. >> Why would they do that? >> Well, they said that it's for protection. or whatever to make sure that people. aren't doing bad things. I don't know. what See what their um. ex- explanation or it was. >> What was it? Sorry, I'm worried about. this reporter that. >> I'm sorry. Um.

>> Just the word. >> Meta. >> Yeah, Meta, got you. >> Meta recently announced that they're no. longer encrypting your DMs on Instagram. And a lot of people are up in arms and. they're stopping using any DMs on. Instagram and any of that stuff. And the idea is that other people can. read your stuff now. Now, whether it's. Meta can read your stuff or who. >> That's what I mean. When I said, "Why. don't you trust Apple?" it's the same. reason I don't trust Meta. They're not. interested. >> Curious, the dangers behind Meta killing. end-to-end encryption for Instagram DMs.

Meta blamed users for not opting into. the privacy-protecting feature. Experts. fear the move could be the first major. domino to fall for end-to-end encryption. tech worldwide. >> narrative. >> Mhm. Yeah, it seems squirrely. Um so, Oh, you've read your last free article. Oh my god, give me money, [ __ ]. >> But but what Apple and Meta want to do. is like they're trying to build these. new neural networks. They're trying to. you know, humans, and we can get into.

this too later if you want. Humans are. the only thing, in my opinion, and I'm. happy to have you disagree with me, and. I'd love to have this conversation. In. my opinion, we're the only ones that are. >> After May 8th, 2026, announced plans. discontinue support for end-to-end. encryption for chats on Instagram. If. you have chats that are impacted by this. change, you'll see instructions on how. you can download any media or messages. you may want to keep. Social media giant. said in the help document, if you're on. an older version of Instagram, you may. also need to update the app before you. can download your affected chats.

When reached for comment, this is what. Meta had to say. Very few people are. opting for end-to-end encrypted messages. and DMs, so we're removing this option. from Instagram in the coming months. Anyone who wants to keep messaging with. end-to-end encryption can easily do that. on WhatsApp. But WhatsApp is a little. squirrely, right? WhatsApp? Yeah, I. mean, they're all squirrely. Um and that's the problem. And so, you asked me why I don't trust. them, it's because they want to they. want to use So, humans, in my opinion, and some animals, are the only things.

that are have the ability to project. consciousness. And projecting consciousness is how you. train a neural network, and it's how you. train all of these large networks that. we A lot of my time also in the military. is spent on I was doing artificial. intelligence in 2012, 2011, like before. it was even a catchphrase. We were using. artificial intelligence to map dynamic. networks and to do other things, more. pragmatic uses of it than how it's being. used today with large language models or. convolutional neural networks. But um. they need consciousness to train their. models. So, when Google offers you Meta.

or Instagram or whoever else offers you. photo storage, it's because they want. your face to train neural networks. If they're going to pay for the compute, if they're going to pay for the storage. for these things, they're doing it. because they're going going use the. data. If you're getting a free app, in. in essence, any free app, any if you're. the product's free, then you're the. product. So, when Google is allowing you. to use a Google Drive and get a gig of. storage, they're going to use those. photos to train neural networks to do. better facial recognition.

>> What if you're paying for Google Drive? >> I don't know about their terms of. service now. That is one of the best. things that I use with large language. models is any product I download, I have. the the neural network examine the terms. of service. And then you can pretty much. understand like here's how here's my. focus. Here's the 40-page terms of. services document when you click that. link that you got. What are they able to. do with my data? So, that's how I sign. up for apps and that's one of the great. uses of a large language model, in my. opinion, is to quickly understand what. how these things are being used. And.

that's why I say with Apple, with Meta, with all of these large information, you. are more of the product than the. product's the product. And that is. because they're trying to build the most. powerful, capable um artificial. intelligences, which I think's a. misnomer. Again, we can get into it. later, but they're trying to build these. high hyper-competent artificial. intelligences, and you need train you. need two things for that, really, is. training data and you need compute. And. that's why you start seeing them coming. out with like Meta's building its own. nuclear engineering facility or. something a nuclear facility or.

something like that. And they need more they need more. training data. So, if I want to build a, you know, a replica of Joe Rogan that I. can make hyper-realistic AI videos for, I need every picture of your face from. every angle, I need every wince, every. squint, everything you've ever done, so. I can introduce more training data to. better train that neural network in. order to generate more hyper-realistic. um versions of yourself. And so, when a. company's offering you something for. free, and it's fine, like if people are.

fine with that idea, then by all means, download all the free apps that you. want. But, if you're downloading a free. app, it's because you are the product. They either want to see how you type, they want to see what you're saying, they want to see how you're thinking. about things, they want to understand. your political biases, they want to look. at your photos. And this isn't because. they're a deep-seated nation-state. actor. They can become that, but it's. because they're trying to build the best. products because the big money is in AI. That's where the biggest money is. So, anytime you're doing any of these things. and it's just been obvious to me from.

the on not from the onset, but pretty. close to the onset. that um. >> Yeah, this is a good example, right? Pokémon Go players built a 30 billion. photo map. >> That's how training robots deliver your. pizza. >> There you go. Um so, you you know, they view and they. can say they don't and maybe if someone. from there catches this podcast, which. they well could, they might put out a. statement that saying that that's not. their doing, but I'm telling you as a. person who has done media forensics, who. has done computer network operations,

and who has trained artificial. intelligence models, that is precisely. what they are doing. That is and there's. no. >> is the difference between using Apple. and using Android? >> Well, Android will do the same things. and Google will do the same things. It's. just that I can root my phone or I can. install a custom operating system like. Graphene or something like that, which. I'm not doing right now. I I had to make a sacrifice when I. started my my company Spartan Forge and. the sacrifice was I had to be the face. of this product. And so, I never had a.

social media until I started the company. and I didn't upload things to the cloud. until I started this company and it. became just like I have to sell a. product, I have to you know, so and I'm. actually selling a product, not people's. data or people's photos. I have to sell. this product, I have to let people. people often don't know who is the. company or who is the organizing. principle and what do they care about in. the company. And I just made that trade and said, I'm. going to have to become a public person. and start putting things out there and. uh so, you know, when I started the.

company, we started our first Instagram. and I started my. my marketing team started my first. Instagram. and uh I had to start uploading things. and talking about how I felt about. things because. um I wanted people to know that this. company was not going to be like the. other companies that are out there. We. don't sell their data. We don't sell. emails. I can make a half million. dollars off my email list tomorrow. And. I've been offered that money. You know, we've got millions of emails from people. who have signed up for our apps. Other. companies who are starting. companies, they want to go out and reach.

marketing people. So, if you're starting. another hunting app, maybe for cameras. or for. a call or a tricky call or an elk call. or something, and you. have found Spartan Forge and you said, "Man, they've got 2 million emails. I could pay them a half million dollars. for that 2 million dollars and start. some top of mark top of line marketing. top of funnel marketing. and go blast them." So, they'd pay me a. lot of money for those emails. I will. never do that. I'll never sell my. company's emails, the people's emails. I'll never do any of those things um. because the product is the product for.

my company. It's not the people. Um. >> So, the reason why you use Android over. Apple is the ability to root it and. install things like Graphene. >> Yeah, custom OSs and uh. >> But yet you don't use it. >> Uh I'm not now, but what I still can use. and what I still do use is Android also. publishes their their their framework in. an open-source fashion where you can you. can look at the It's called AOSP, Android Open Source Project. So, the. basis of Android, the the nuts Think of.

it as the nuts and bolts. I'll try not. to talk in too technical terms here. But. the basic framework, think about it like. a car. The frame and the engine makeup. is published. So, you can look at how. things work on the inside. Apple goes. the opposite way and they don't publish. any of that, and you can't see any of. that stuff. I'm for the free and open. version because at least if something at. least if I'm worried about my phone. having a problem, I can actually dump. binary or I can create an E01 file and. exume I can look at the binary and say, "Is my phone acting like it should or.

doing what it should? Or is there some. kind of persistent implant? I wouldn't. be able to do that with a I would have. to trust Apple and Apple's ecosystem and. whoever their McAfee or whatever they're. using, I would have to trust them, which. I don't. Um so I like the Android um. because. >> option available for the average. consumer that's not that learned in. computers? >> Well, the great part about large. language models now is if you wanted to. dump your own phone today, you could. follow along with the large language. model and do it your own Android.

>> And how would you do that? >> Um well, there's you would have to buy. some expensive there there is something. you would either have to pay a firm to. do it. or you could download things like uh. Cellebrite, you could get a Cellebrite. or there's other things called forensic. toolkit, other things like that that. allow you to examine your phone at a. deeper level. >> And is this an app forensic. >> They're they're products. >> Products. >> They're products. So it's a physical. product that you dump your phone into? >> Yeah, and they're software. >> Mhm. >> Um and they're just connecting and all.

that type of stuff. Uh tools I used. throughout my military um career. Um. Cellebrite was one of them, but they're. Israeli-owned. Um I've got nothing. against Israel, I've just got everything. against foreign actors. Just if they're not an American company, that automatically kicks them down a. level for me. So um. anyway, there's there's all kinds of. Android just makes it much easier to. examine your phone or to understand if. you've got something going on that's. funky than it is on Apple. >> So for the average person, like for me.

like if I got. >> the average person. >> Well, let's pretend I am. If I got an. Android phone and I wanted to examine my. phone, what would I what would be the. process? >> Uh you would download some of the. software that I talked about. You would. jack your phone into it. You would open. your phone and then it would start. carving um the binary of your phone the. the the everything in your phone. It. would start you could create a. one-to-one emulation of your phone if. you wanted to. And then you would be able to get under. the hood and examine the apps. You'd be. able to examine the binary, what's the. executable code. You'd be able to look.

all of those things and then determine. because Android open source project is. published, you could do a one-for-one. and say, "Well, you know, at the kernel. level, there's this weird code that's. not in the Android. build. So, what is this code?" And then. with the neural network, you could prob-. I don't I've never done it, but I'm sure. you could figure out what the intent is. of that code even for a layperson. >> So, I could take that information, I. could put it into Perplexity, and. Perplexity would lay out what's going on.

with it? >> Ostensibly, it would be able to, yes, unless it was some type of weird code. I. don't know if I haven't used Perplexity, so I don't know if they have something. like ChatGPT's Codex. But, um. >> of just tried just to be like, "Can you. help me examine my Android phone? Is. doing looking for any malicious actors?". >> Yes, I can walk you through structured. non-destructive check for malware or. other shady activity on your Android. phone. A, first, what are you noticing? For. tools, commands, quickly check for. common warning signs, sudden big battery. drain you're not using the phone, unusual data usage, particularly in the.

background, apps you don't remember. installing or icons briefly appearing. and then disappearing, lots of pops up. pop-ups, redirects in browser or new. default search launcher, strange calls, SMS messages you didn't send yourself. If any of those ring a bell, we'll focus. on them in later steps. >> just asking you like, "Why do you want. to do. >> So, this is just something that you. could do with an Android phone that you. just can't do with an iPhone. >> do it. Yeah, Apple's not open. >> What are the reasons you don't trust. Apple? >> Well, could I ask Can I do one thing. before we Remember that question cuz I. don't want to forget it. Could I give.

you a prompt? >> Sure. >> Um cuz I want to answer your first. question that we've already gone past. Uh if you Can you bring Perplexity back. up, please? >> to go in addition to that or start a new. one? >> No, this is fine. Um just say, uh "My. friend helped me. carve. an EO1 file, EO E echo Oscar EO1 file.". And he says. that there is code in there. that doesn't comport with the rest of.

the Android system. >> Comport? >> Yeah, p o r t. >> with. >> the rest of the system. Could I dump that code here and could. you tell me what it means? I'm sure the answer is yes, but I just. didn't want to answer it cuz I've never. done it. Could you tell me? Could you tell me, Jamie? Could you tell me what it means here? >> I would have figured that out probably. though. >> Get the U out. Get the U. Tell me U.

Could I have some of your coffee, please? Yeah, absolutely. It's for you. Okay, let's see what it says. Da da da. Yes, you can paste suspicious. code here and I can help explain what it. mean what it appears to do line by line. and whether anything looks malicious. Before you paste, a few important notes. Remove or redact anything that looks. like private data, usernames, passwords, keys, tokens, IPs, email addresses, phone Perplexity is our sponsor. >> I love that. Cuz you'd never get that. from Chat GPT. It'd want all that.

information. >> Perplexity is the [ __ ] Um and so you're. not sharing personal or case sensitive. information. >> Wonderful, Perplexity. >> If it's very long, send in chunks and. tell me chunk one {dash} three, chunk. two {dash} three, et cetera, so we can. help keep track. I can do static. analysis here, read and reason about the. code, but I cannot actually execute it. in a sandbox. >> Right. >> So, this is more like a careful forensic. read through than a full dynamic malware. analysis. Go ahead and paste the code.

snippet your friend flagged as not. fitting with the rest of the system and. tell me in a sentence or two where in. the E01 it came from, example, app. folder, system partition, random file. path. >> Yep, exactly. So, yeah, I I thought that. would be the answer. I've just never. done it. And so, you can do a forensic. examination of an Apple, by the way. I I. I'm sorry if I misspoke there, but you. can't do it to the level that you can. with because the Android Open Source. Project publishes all of the code, >> Mhm.

>> I can get an understanding of the very. inner workings. So, if something's being. done for for instance at the kernel, or. you could think of that as like the. lowest level of the phone, something. that wouldn't normally uh get caught in. a forensic um examination, I wouldn't be. able to do that with Apple. >> Right. >> So, and the nation-state actors are. doing are doing things at very low. levels in the code framework. for that exact reason, because most. people who aren't very deep into. forensics um would miss that. It'd be. like the fingerprint under the couch. cushion or something like that.

>> And what is the difference between what. what someone can do with an Android. phone phone with the standard Android. operating system versus Graphene? >> Uh. so, that gets into, you know, if you. wanted to war drive or sample um Wi-Fi. networks in an area, or if you wanted to. run a um barrage um attack on a Wi-Fi um. endpoint, you could work that in there. to do things with the phone that you. couldn't otherwise do with a standard. app. um with a standard Android operating.

kit. >> But as far as on a consumer level, like. what protections do you have by running. Graphene. that you don't have by running Android? >> Um. you're much more in control of the. ecosystem. Um you're you're you have a. firmer understanding, and again, you. could use a large language model to do. this, to understand exactly what's being. run on the phone. Um you control the. background services that can be run on. the phone. So, if you're getting hot. miked, or if your camera's taking. pictures of you when you're not looking, or it's listening to you for advertising. content, stuff like that, you you would.

be in control of all of that in a way. that you're not in control of on a. native Android app. >> And control like how so? Would it alert. you that this is happening? >> Or or just the functionality wouldn't be. there for it to take place. >> Right, because the functionality is it's. only designed for the standard Android. operating system. >> And I haven't installed Graphene in a. while, so a lot of this all of this. updates and I could be saying things. that are incorrect. My data I stopped. doing this about 3 years ago. >> Well, I know that there was I forget. what country it was, but they were. focusing on people who use Google Pixel.

phones, for example. >> Yeah, cuz that's. >> Cuz that's one of the phones that are. more commonly rooted. >> Yeah, it's easy to do. And you could do it with a large. language model. You could sit there and. be walked through on how to do it, which. is a great. you know, part of that. >> Is it complicated like for a person like. me that's not that astute? >> Uh no, it's not something I would do. with a phone that you care about the. first few times cuz you're going to jack. things up. You have to, you know, get. the boot loader and. essentially the starting you know, the. starting mechanisms of the phone that. launches all of the other things. You. have to get down to a level and unlock.

that so that you can um. >> Is that available for all Android. phones? >> No, not all Android phones. A lot lots. of them lock it down so you can't do. that. >> Is that available for Samsung phones? >> Uh no, not this one. You can't So, the. question has to become can you lock. unlock the boot loader? And that is the. starting Think of it as the starting. engine of the rest of the phones. >> that only available on Google Pixel. phones? >> I'm not sure why they do it that way. I. haven't looked into that. It's just. Pixels and the older Samsungs um. made it available. older Galaxy S7s, S10s. You could do.

more than you can with like you know, I've got the Galaxy Fold here and you. can do almost none of that on here. >> That is [ __ ] sweet, though. >> Yeah, I love this phone. But um like I. said, I went away from doing all that A. cuz it was work, B because I'm not working in national. security anymore and I'm not, you know, I haven't written an exploit in years. Um I I don't do this type of work. anymore and I need to sell a product. And it just, you know, working with. other employees like with that run my. Instagram or you know, assistant going.

through my email and all those other. types of things. It just it wasn't. pragmatic anymore for me to keep doing. that and I had to give up that part of. myself. Can your app work, run on. graphene? >> Yeah, well, it could. Yeah, it would. But we have you have to side load the. app. But again, a large language model. could walk you through doing that. So, um we haven't gotten to that level of. >> make sense here that this says that it's. easier because Google makes it easier? >> Yeah, they he was just asking me why. they make it easier and I don't know. that answer. >> That's I mean so the process is. officially supported in the Android. settings under developer options,

allowing users to toggle OEM locking, simple fastboot method. Pixels use. standard fastboot commands. uh that work consistently across all. models to unlock the bootloader. accessibility. Yeah. >> That's what I was talking about. So, um. yeah, I don't know why they do it. It. might be people can Well, well, the. Android open source project exists. So, it would stand to reason that you would. want a way for someone cuz what you want. is people interacting with that code and. red teaming it and making the code. better and then offering, you know, bug.

bounties uh so that you can tell Android. like, "Hey, you've got a critical flaw. in your system architecture here." And. then they'll pay you 20 grand for that. Right. Um I've got friends who do that. So, um. >> You and I talked about Erik Prince's. phone. >> Yes. >> That which is. So, the. the narrative is that that is an. unhackable phone. >> Yeah, it's just by virtue and look, Erik's a wonderful guy and uh. he's he's the principles that he used.

for for the first instantiation of that. phone are the correct principles, which. is we need to get a If you want if. you're security focused at all, you. should get away from these big large. conglomerates because none of your data. is private. That's a correct principle. An incorrect principle, and I'm going to. get [ __ ] about this, but I. told you in the beginning I care about. the truth and I do care about the truth. is that when you're using a PKI um. subsystem that relies on Microsoft, then. you're not in control of the PKI. certificate signing and Microsoft could.

cause a bunch of problems, and they were. using that. Um, so, the other thing. being, if you're building on the Android. open source project, that means the code. that you're using as the engine, let's. just call it that, of your phone, is. examinable by the public. So, you're. relying on Android to publish these, you. know, updates to the phone, and you're. relying on those things to be as good as. possible. Now, you might harden it some. more, but as long as the code is out. there, it can always be mucked with. As.

long as people have to interact with the. device and type, and you have to see. what you're typing, a phone's going to be it's going to have. Swiss cheese. So, when people say. something is unhackable, as you said, that's just not true. >> Yeah, it didn't make sense to me. It's. just not true. >> talked about. >> Yeah, we talked about it quite a bit. Um, I have like I said, great guy, done. lots of great things for the country, and uh, uh, it's just if they had just. said something along the lines of it's. hackable as any phone is hackable. because by virtue of you having to.

interact with it, it's hackable. It just just like if I install if I came. up with an app that had a, you know, look at the TikTok terms of service on. the first TikTok. >> bonkers. >> With those terms of services, I will own. your phone, and I'm not saying you can. install TikTok on his phone, but what. I'm saying is by virtue that you have to. interact with the phone and see what. you're doing and type passwords, and. you've got those kinds of terms of. service, I could easily put a keylogger. in that, and now I know your Signal. password or your Signal PIN. Or, or, you.

know, I get you you know, you're going. to China, so I stop you in secondary, and while you're in secondary, I've got. a CCTV on you, and you unlock your. phone. Now I know how to unlock your phone, and. now I'm going to lock you up in second. secondary. uh, at at customs in China, or in. Canada, and uh, I'm going to separate. you from your phone, and I've seen you. unlock it. Well, now I'm going to get in. there with NCase, or I'm going to get in. there with FTK, or I'm going to get in. there with uh, Cellebrite, and I'm I'm. to dump your phone. And and just by virtue of it being built.

on the Android open source project, that's a great thing. It's a good thing. Just don't call it totally unhackable. Because a guy like me. I don't need but a week or two to tell. you on this current build like here are. the here's the hole in the Swiss cheese. Now is it far better than having a. Google phone. with standard firmware and standard OS. or an Apple phone? I don't know about Apple because again. you asked me about Apple and I said I. don't know Apple. I don't know what's. happening at the top of that company, but I know that they like to monetize.

people and that's pervasive in my mind. And using data that people don't know is. getting used even though it's in a. 40-page terms of services document is. pervasive. So I just don't know at that. highest level of analysis. And that's. why I said to answer your question about. the safest phone, I would ask you what. you're using it for or who you are and. what are you doing in the world. Um is. the best way to answer that question. >> So me, like what would you recommend I. use? >> I mean I wouldn't want to. I mean okay, I'll I'll tell you. generally what I would say because you.

might ask me that question one day. because we go back and forth about a lot. of tech. Um I know specifically what I. would recommend for you to do and I'd. even tell you to hire someone else to do. it and not me. Um because. that just that checks and balances is. what I would want. But um for you I. would say you should take something like. a. a Raspberry Pi and you should run. WireGuard on your phone and you should. route all of your internet traffic. through something like a home terminal. at your house through a Raspberry Pi. using something like WireGuard which is.

a a VPN that I use that's very good. Um. and. you know, everything should be routed. through that. And if you trust Apple, continue using Apple. If you don't trust. Apple, then you know, use Android. And. you could do you could use a Pixel and. do Graphene and you could use Signal on. there and those other things you're. going to be relatively safe. But again, if I'm a nation-state actor, I can. create circumstances where I'm going to. get access to your [ __ ] and I'm going to.

lock you down. Um. and there some of them are more. expensive than other methods to do it, but I'm a pragmatist and you can always. come up with a method to get a hold of. somebody's [ __ ] You can always create. the circumstances, especially if you're. a nation-state actor, to get a hold of somebody's stuff. That. would be the very high level of things. that I would recommend to you. Um. uh. just out the gate. >> Mhm. Yeah, it's a very concerning cuz it. seems like these things keep getting. stronger and more capable. >> Yes.

>> Like the Pegasus 2 being a non-click. exploit. >> Yes. >> So all they have to do essentially is. just know your number. >> Yep. And that's you know. uh you. just make yourself a difficult target. would be my best recommendation. When. you're going to answer questions about. password reset, don't answer them. honestly. Write down in a physical. journal or something how you answer. those questions. Don't answer them. honestly. Um you know, all of these. things we think are added for layers of. protection. For instance, you used to. get that pop-up on your phone where it.

said, you know, there'd be like blocks. of pictures and it would say, "Click all. of the pictures. >> Right. >> with a uh. >> With a traffic light in it. >> I was just going to say that. A traffic. light in it. >> Yeah. >> Part of that might be for security. The. other part of it is they're using the. information of what you're clicking to. train neural networks. >> Right. >> at that point. >> Right. >> You think you're getting security out of. it, but you're a product at that point. because you're helping to educate a. neural network on what traffic lights. look like. >> Yeah. >> And how they can look. And all those. different instantiations of traffic.

lights. So and and again, like. we have to separate causality and. intention and outcomes in that the. companies might do this because they. want to create the greatest AI ever. But. when you're issuing someone a 40-page. terms of service document on everything. they can do with your thing that you. paid $2,000 for. It's just you know, we need more ethical people. At least. what Eric Prince was trying to do was. right, which was. we need to off-ramp from some of these. big things because.

the way that this government is going, I'm very worried about the rights of the. individual now um and going forward. because we have an uneducated class of. people. for all of the reasons in the world. Like if you want to just focus on your. family and you're not thinking about. these things, I don't hate that for you. But the idea of individual autonomy and. rights has been so [ __ ] on. in in recent years. that where this go when we get more. uneducated and we rely. largely with models are great. But.

they're not a foundation of learning. In other words, um we have a lot of. people with access to information but no. wisdom. It's like when your parents. would say learn how to do addition and. subtraction on paper before you use a. calculator. Like understand how to do. research and site sources and. understand, you know, how to do conduct. really good analysis before you just use. a neural network for everything. Because. as we lose focus of our civics. and and and what our founders were. trying to do and the uniqueness of it, which is truly unique, which is, you.

know, when I joined the army, I joined. the army to get out of North Dakota. When I re-enlisted in the army, it's. because I believed in the experiment. And that's a another 5-hour podcast, but. um. the the the the foundation of the. experiment is good, but we've eroded in. so many ways over the years and given up. so many individual rights in the name of. security. I'm sure it's been said on. here before, but Franklin said anybody. who gives up their individual rights in. the name of security deserves neither. Um your freedoms in the name of security.

deserve neither. Um and it's some of the. ways that they've done it have been. really above the surface and it it. frankly. blows my mind that we let the government. get away with some of these things that. we let them get away with. Where you. even explain it to people and like, I. don't see it. Like I don't see how that. was a big deal. And I'm like, it was a total recalibration of the. system that allowed the Democratic Party. and the Republican Party to usurp your. rights in a way that if you knew any. better, you'd probably be protesting.

Like some of the ways that we they've. done this, you know, we can go with the. easy stuff like the Patriot Act, right? In the name of security, we're going to. start collecting on Americans. You know, in the Biden and Obama administration, I. will say this, at risk of, you know, getting in trouble. cuz I used to have a clearance. They had a massive vacuum cleaner and. they knew what it was vacuuming up and. they kept vacuuming it up anyway in the. name of security. I'm not saying they. were going after American citizens, but. they certainly knew they were.

And they just vacuumed [ __ ] up and. collected it and stored it in a database. in case they needed it. In case at some. point we needed to, you know, come up with a narrative or get rid of. somebody who's inconvenient or whatever. else. That just flies in the face of. individual American rights and American. autonomy. And uh is really in my mind. the anti-pattern to freedom. It's just really really bad. I mean, I'll give you a. one that people always crap on me. whenever I talk to them about it, but. there's two that really bother me. One.

of them being like the 17th Amendment. Do you know the 17th Amendment to the. Constitution? >> So, the 17th So, when the founders when. you read the Federalist Papers and the. Federalist Papers, I really love reading. the Federalist Papers. I love reading. how they informed the Constitution, the. Bill of Rights, um the Declaration even. Um John Jay, James Madison wrote these. documents explaining the framework. And. the 17th Amendment, essentially how the. Senate, the Senate, right? The 50. people there that are supposed to be. representing us, was originally.

constructed was a state would have. legislators. And the state legislators. and the governor would appoint the. senator. The reason that the founders did that. was because they the state governments. had to give power to the federal. government to exist. There back with the. articles of uh. uh. um articles of confederation. confederation is that right? Articles of. I think it's articles of confederation. I'm blowing up Sorry, I'm going nuts. Back before there was a strong. centralized American government, um we.

had problems with money, we had problems. with interstate commerce, and those. types of things. And those articles. eventually turned into what is the. constitution. But the states had to. grant that power and the and the signers. of the declaration of independence and. the constitution knew. that the states needed to be those small. projects that we talked about before. where if California wanted to go nuts, let them go nuts. But it shouldn't impact what's happening. in Texas. It shouldn't impact what's. happening over in New England. It. shouldn't impact what's happening in the. Midwest. But if if that goes nuts and it fails, it needs to fail. So the state senators.

I'm sorry, the state um legislatures. would come together and they would vote. for a senator. They would elect a. senator. And that senator's job was to. go to the federal government and protect. the rights of the state. Not to protect. the rights of individuals per se, and. certainly not to embolden the federal. government. But with the 17th Amendment, what happened was. the the House of Representatives. function was to be. the petulant children of government. So. their job was to come up with crazy.

ideas, crazy laws, all of those things. The more liberal version of government. jurisprudence would be the the House of. Representatives, your crazy ideas. And. then you had state senators who were. supposed to be between the House and the. president who would say "Well, here's a. good idea, but the rest of this is. [ __ ] AOC. Like we're not doing all. this, that's crazy." Or whoever else. Name your Republican who's an ass hat as. well. Um we're not doing these things. And that's because it would erode the. state's rights and the state's. constitution and what made this state. great. Because what the legislatures.

would do is say "Hey Joe Rogan, we. you've made a lot of money and you've. got a big podcast and a big voice and. you've learned some lessons along the. way and you're able to do that in Texas. and you decided to come to Texas because. we had all of these things that. California didn't have. We need you to go to the Senate for 3. years or 6 years or 7 years, whatever it. was back then, and represent those same principles. So, when Obamacare comes through, you can. say not only no, but [ __ ] no. Like, I'm. not voting for this thing." And it was. to protect the state. But what the 17th.

did was. it it. it was redundant with the House of. Representatives, which was in the. founders' eyes the only popular vote. part of the constitu- of the of the. American government was the the popular. vote. And then you had, you know, the. way the president gets elected through. electors, but you had the state senate, which was appointed by the states. So, the legislatures, and I'll I'll use. North Dakota, where I'm from. You'll have one big city two big cities, Fargo and Grand Forks, North Dakota. It's where the universities are. It's.

where your crazy kids are. Crazy thought. exists. Hyper crazy ideas. But some of. them are useful. The rest of the state's. agriculture, right? So, all of those. legislators from all of those counties. or those legislative dis- districts. would get together and say, "We're going. to put Bill Thompson, that would never. happen, but in charge of our he's going. to be at the Senate representing North. Dakota. But he has to represent. represent the whole state." In other. words, you can't do things that will. that will help Grand Forks or Fargo. because that's where the universities. are. That's where all of the crazy.

politics are. You also need to be. thinking about the guys out in the. western counties, LaMoure County in. North Dakota or way out west. You have. to protect agriculture. You have to. protect small businesses. You have to. protect families. What the 17th Amendment under Woodrow. Wilson and how they really usurped the. Constitution and made the Senate a. redundant They made it a redundant House. of Representatives and using the popular. vote. So, now we use popular vote for. that. But if you want the popular vote. in North Dakota, 85% of the population. is in Fargo and Grand Forks.

So now you've got if I want to run for. Senate in North Dakota, I'm just going. to spend all of my time in Fargo and. Grand Forks. Cuz if I can repeat back to those people. all the ideas that they want to hear, I'm going to win that vote and I don't. have to represent those people out in. the rest of state in anything. >> Right. >> So they created a redundant House of. Representatives, but another reason why. it happened was they wanted popular vote. because there is no amount of money that. you could stick into a legislature out. in the western part of North Dakota. You. can't bribe these people. But the DNC. and RNC now can say, "Look, these two.

senators are running. We like this guy, so we're going to This guy will do. whatever we tell him to do.". And it's that has nothing to do with the. state or representing the state's rights. or the rest of those legislative. districts. We're going to pick this. senator and he's getting $300 million. for his election bid. This other guy. who's, you know, a slower-moving. constitutional conservative who might be. a free, you know, market absolutist and. a. classical liberal, he's not being. funded. But under the state architecture, you. might have been a better representation.

of the state and that's why the. legislators had to vote for you to put. you in as a senator. You had to. represent the whole state. But now all. that someone who wants to be a senator. needs to do is go to the Republican. National Committee or the. the Democrat National Committee and say, "I'll do all the things you tell me to. do. Fund my campaign and I'm going to go. stump in Fargo and Grand Forks in North. Dakota and the hell with the rest of the. state.". It's very important. It is a very. important slide of hand. And when that. happened, you made a redundant House of.

Representatives and the state no longer. was uh protected at the federal level. And what happened was all of the power. from all of these states and these. legislatures and these individuals got. sucked up into the federal government. And then after that you see all of these. things that would never have been passed. by a state getting passed, things like. Obamacare, things like the Patriot Act, certain war resolutions, um. all kinds of things where it just. further erodes the power of the state. And federal government wants that. because it puts all of the power up in.

the federal government. And people. always say we need to get money out of. politics. No, we need to get power out. of politics. That power that they've. taken, you know, over the last 130 years. or so, used to exist at the state and. local levels because they wanted these. thought experiments happening where we. could pluck the best things out of them. and forget the rest. But all of that power is now gone up to. the federal government and the federal. government, um, uh, won't ever release that power and they. only want more budget and more spending. to execute that power. And that's also.

because the interest groups that want to. go, they don't want to have to go and. convince the whole state of whether or. not something is good that people are. going to vote on. They just want to go. take a lobby and go up to the federal. government because they want all of the. power up there as well. And the federal. government wants all the power up there. as well because they make $300,000 a. year before they become a politician and. they're worth $30 million when they're. done being a politician because all of. the money has to go to the federal. government because they're in charge of. light bulbs we can use, computers we can. use, flush toilets we can have, how our. roads are going to look, what our.

medical care looks like. That That none. of those powers are explicitly written. in the Constitution of the United States. and they use things like the commerce. law and other things in order to create. things like Obamacare where really we. want competing states. If Texas comes up. with a great way to do health care. and North Dakota's isn't so great, they. can look at that experiment, they can. adopt the principles and they can have. it at that level. But it's much easier. to get change at the local level when. the power is derived from the state and. the individual because if I want to.

change the way that my state does health. care, I have one of two options. or three options. I can run for office, I can support someone who is going to go. into office and do what I want or I can. move. But when everything's centralized at the. federal government and everything flows. from the federal government, all of the. money, power, and gravity is up there. and the individual, the 300 million of. us or so, have real really no power now. to exercise either states' rights or. individual rights at the higher level. I. hope I'm elucidating this correctly, but. it's a real usurpation of individual and.

state autonomy. that really got rid of state power, which was if you read the Federalist. Papers was so important to the founders. that there was the state that the. states' needs were organized because the. state was where the founders wanted. these thought experiments. You You read. Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan or John Locke. or Montesquieu. All of them talked about. this great experiment that was being set. up and how it was built on all of this. Western politics and everything that had. come before it on how we could have a. government that was forced to respect. the rights of individuals and allowed.

for these competing think tanks of ideas. and that the power would never rest at. the federal government. But the 17th. Amendment um was a way that a lot of. that power went from the state level and. the state legislatures. And now to. become the president, they want to do a. popular vote. And under a popular vote, you would just have to campaign in New. York and LA. >> Right. >> You would get the popular vote out of. the likely voting people, and now the. rest of the country is not. And that. would be another You hear all these. people saying we need a popular vote. We.

can't have the Electoral College. We. can't have. all of these things. Everything needs to. be pure dot to pure democracy allows 51%. to rule 49%. And that was another thing the founders. were working fervently to get away from. And that's why we had an Electoral. College. And it And it's actually quite. beautiful when you actually read about. it and examine it. It's why we had the. state senate and state legislatures, and. this is why we had the house. You had. all levels of the things of government. that the founders cared about being. represented in this body politic, and it.

was a beautiful thing. And I could go on for 15 more things. about that. I won't do it for the sake. of your listeners cuz I'm I doubt this. is what they wanted to do, but similar. things happened with the. Supreme Court Marbury v. Madison and. allowing the Supreme Court to have. judicial review. That was never a thing. that was in the Constitution and the. Supreme Court if you like the Supreme. Court being able to have the power to. describe everything as being either. constitutional or unconstitutional, then. you're not ruled by a democracy. You're. ruled by an oligarchy. You've got eight people in a robe that. are going to tell you whether or not. laws are good or bad. And that's not the.

founding of this country. It's not how. it was intended to work. And that all. started back in Marbury Marbury v. Madison with Thomas Jefferson. um and these writs of mandamus. that were the Supreme Supreme Court long. story short essentially granted itself. the power to conduct judicial review. Under the old system or the system old. system the system that was ratified and. that the founders approved was. if a law was deemed unconstitutional. um it would go before the Supreme Court. and they just wouldn't rule they would. rule in favor of the person.

And then eventually the government would. figure figure out, "Oh, this law doesn't. work." But it was never on the Supreme. Court to say constitutional, unconstitutional. You would get arrested. for some law, you'd go and it would get. appealed to the Supreme Court and the. Supreme Court would say, "We're not. punishing this person. This is against. the Constitution.". But the government would have to keep. arresting people. They'd have to keep. going in front of the federal. government. So, what I'm saying is and. I'm sorry to go off on this. We can go. back to tech. But all I'm saying is. the core of the American experiment in. individual rights and what makes this. country so great and why I was willing.

to die for it after my initial. enlistment and why I have such love for. this is because it was the only. experiment where the value of the. individual was held at the top of the. hierarchy. And that people could truly. be allowed to flourish. And in 250 years. we did more than any society could have. hoped to have achieved in tens of. thousands of years. Well, not that it's. been around that long, but in thousands. of years. Everything tends towards um. disorder and everything uh power always. gets centralized. And we had a framework. to do that, but we were willing.

participants in our own demise. And now. we're scratching our heads and wondering. why there's no individual and why. there's no individual autonomy and a guy. can't smoke weed on the weekend, or why. a guy can't do X, Y, or Z because we. have centralized the authority and the. power and the decision-making structure, and we're allowing them to be There. would be no problem with money in. politics if the federal government had. only the powers that were outlined to it. in the Constitution. >> I think that's very well said. And I. could have never said it the way you. said it.

I think there's a lot to absorb here. >> I'm sorry. >> No, no, it was great, dude. It was. great. >> Um. >> That This is one of the things that I. love about you. You're very thorough. >> Yeah, thorough is one thing. My friends. always say Bill's tism is starting to. show. >> Ah, you got a touch of the tism, but I. think that's good. Like I said, just. like ADHD, I think it's a superpower. Lot to absorb. So, I think we'll wrap it. up right here. But thank you. This was. an awesome conversation. I really. appreciate it. It was really great. >> Yeah. Um. >> We could do this again, too. I'm sure we. could probably have 30 or 40 of these. >> didn't even get to AI. I wanted to get.

to AI cuz I I think I have a very. anti-pattern to AI and how you. understand it. But um we If you want, we. can save that for another time. >> do that for our next one cuz I think. that's another 4 hours. >> Yeah, probably. >> Yeah, for sure. And by then, who knows where it's going. to I mean, Jensen Jensen Huang from. Nvidia recently declared that we've. reached AGI. >> Yeah, so I would I would Yeah, I would I. could. Yeah, I just couldn't disagree more. And. I think I could in the same way I just. hallucinate. >> the only one. There's quite a few. people.

>> Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's consciousness. projection. And I'll sum it up in a. minute. At the end of the day, um neural networks are mathematical. functions. They rest in, you know, waiting neurons based on training data. and applying power to train models. It's. all mathematic. Um there's no sense of. knowing there in that um you know, I. Penrose, I've read a lot of um on is orc. OR. If people want to read about that, I. won't explain it. Um um or orchestrated. objective reduction and how the mind.

works in these fleets of consciousness. that we have, these shimmers of. consciousness that we have based around. what you know, he describes in the. microtubule. Um, we get conscious thought and that. conscious thought we project into. things. AI is very good conscious. projection. But well, it will never have. consciousness or knowing because it has. no system of values. And if we were to. instill values in it, it would still be. consciousness projection. You saw my dad's cabin. My dad died when. I was five, but I bought it back and was. working on it and inside of his cabin, um, I got to learn a lot about my father.

by working on the cabin that he built. Like when he would measure things and. cut things right on walls and that type. of stuff. That's all consciousness projection that. allowed me to get to to know him a way I. might not even known him if he were. alive. But I got to re-experience and. understand my father and his. thoroughness through that cabin. AI is consciousness projection. It's. projected consciousness. It's getting. very good. But on a calculator, you. could get the same thing out of a neural. that you get out of a neural network if. you had sufficient time. I could present you a question just like.

you did on Perplexity. I could sit here. with a rulebook and I could type in a. calculator. It might take me a million years. But I could do it and I could get give. you the same answer that a neural. network would give you. That doesn't mean consciousness or. knowing or AGI is presence is present. It relies on its training data. It can. only give you what the training data. gives it. It can needs human. consciousness projection like we talked. about with the captchas or we talked. about with uploading photos to Google. Drive. It needs that training data. And.

and to me it's just really fancy clever. math. And having trained these networks. from year dozens of year or a dozen. years now and working with them, they're just really clever consciousness. projection. And so yeah, that that is 4. hours and we can do that next time. >> We'll do that next time. Definitely. >> Um, but if people we you mentioned the. app. >> time we do it next time, who knows what. the [ __ ] is going to be going on with AI. too. >> Yeah. But uh, if people want to learn more about me or. my company. It's If I can say that. >> Uh it's spartanforge.ai. We're built on.

the rubric of individual freedom. I want. people outdoors. I want people hunting. I want people experiencing nature. I. want people um providing for their. families. The best part of my day is. when my kids are eating a backstrap of. an animal that I took. And I want to. enable people to go out and do that and. even though it's paradoxical through an. app, you can get lost. You got to. conserve time. You got to e-scout. You. got to learn things before you go out. there. So, we built this company under. that. It's one of my You know, I've got. three other companies that I'm doing, but Spartan Forge is the one that I'm. working. >> It's an awesome app. >> really working on Well, I really.

appreciate that. We've put a lot of work. into it and we've got a lot more coming. over the summer. So, if people want to. support us or want to get out there and. and get some hunting done, please check. it out and I answer all the Instagram. DMs. So, if you want have a question for. me. >> Good luck with that now. >> Well, I I try to. I spend about 2 hours. every morning doing it. But, uh. >> Good luck. >> Thank you, Joe, for having me. >> Thanks, brother. Appreciate you very. much. >> Yeah, have a good day. >> All right, you too. Bye, everybody.