Joe Rogan Experience #2467 - Michael Pollan

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe. Rogan experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE. ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. ALL DAY. MR. POLLAN, [music] so good seeing you. again. >> Hey, good to be back. Consciousness. So, um. this new book, what inspired it? What. what got you to I mean, you you've kind. of explored consciousness a little bit. with your psychedelic book, yeah. How to. change your mind. Well, actually, this book was inspired.

by the research I did for that book. Um. as you know, I had several uh research. trips. Um and uh Do you do air quotes. when you say research? [laughter] Yes. And I am And two things happened that. were really interesting. One is. there's something about. psychedelics that makes you think about. consciousness. It You know, it's like. smudging the windscreen the windshield. that you normally is perfectly.

transparent and you see the world. through. Suddenly, it's like different. and you realize. there's something between me and the. world. And what is it? And that's. consciousness. And so, like a lot of people have have. done psychedelics, you start wondering. about this mystery. Why is it this way. not that way? So, that was one experience. The other. was I had an experience in my garden in. Connecticut where we have a house. of um. uh walking through my garden and getting. the powerful impression that the plants.

were conscious. And that these I remember these this. particular It was a plume poppy or. several plume poppies and they were like. returning my gaze. They were very. benevolent. They were you know, putting. out positive vibes. But like they were conscious, much more. alive than they'd ever been. And like a lot of insights on. psychedelics, I didn't know what to do. with it. Like is it true? Is it just a. drug thing? You know, what is it? Um, but I decided it'd be interesting to. find out and uh I consulted a couple.

people, scientists, and said, "What do. you do with an insight like that?". And they said, "Well, you test it. against other ways of knowing, including scientific ways of knowing.". And that led me down this uh. really interesting path uh exploring. plant intelligence and plant. consciousness. So, basically it yeah, the book grew out. of the psychedelic experiences and some. meditation experience. Meditation also. has a way of making you like hyper-aware. of how strange your thoughts are, where.

they're coming from, who's thinking. them. So, there's a bunch of different. schools of thought when it comes to. consciousness, right? There's one like. the Rupert Sheldrake thing that sort of. everything has consciousness and there's. the sort of. rational scientists that believe it. exists somewhere in the mind. I don't. >> In the brain. >> Yeah, in the brain, excuse me. And then. there's people that think that the brain. is essentially just an antenna. Right. That's tuning in Yeah. to the greater. consciousness of whatever it is that's.

out there. Yeah. Do you have any one of. them that you hold. or do you. >> Uh they're all equally plausible. I you. know, I went into the experience. assuming, because this is what most. scientists assume, that somehow a. certain arrangement of neurons in the. brain generates consciousness, you know, subjective experience. But no one's been able to show that. We've gotten nowhere in that effort to. you know, we can we we might correlate. certain parts of the brain with. consciousness, but we don't understand.

how 3 lb of matter could generate the. feeling of being you. And you talk about. it in your book where the the two. gentlemen who had the bet? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was uh Christof Koch, who's a. uh. a great brain scientist, and David. Chalmers, who's a uh philosopher. And uh this goes back to like in the. early '90s. They were getting drunk in a. bar in Bremen, Germany. And, uh, Kristof Koch had had really was. at the beginning of the modern.

scientific exploration of consciousness. And he was working with Francis Crick, who had just come off of a Nobel Prize. for the discovery of DNA. And Crick, who was like the most famous. scientist in the world at the time, um, thought, well, the same kind of. reductive science that discovered the. double helix DNA and explained heredity, um, I'm going to do that for. consciousness. He was a very arrogant. man, and he he thought it would just, you know, no problem. Um, and Crick was kind of his sidekick.

I I'm sorry. Uh, Koch was his sidekick. And so, Koch, who shared that kind of. confidence, made this bet with Chalmers. that they would find the neural. correlates, the parts of the brain that. are responsible for consciousness, within 25 years. That was 25 years, 27 years ago now. And, uh, Chalmers won the bet. Chalmers is famous for, um, coining the term the hard problem. to, you know, to, um, describe the whole.

effort to figure out consciousness. And. it's a hard problem for a lot of. reasons. Um, I mean, it is one of the. biggest mysteries in the universe. I. mean, how consciousness come came to be? Did it evolve? Was it always here? Um, but he his his point was that. our science is based on third-person. objective, quantifiable measurements, and consciousness is fundamentally a. subjective, first-person experience. So, how does that those tools reach in and.

say any anything of value about. consciousness? So, he said, you know, there are easy. problems of consciousness we can figure. out, like perception, um, emotion, things like that. But but there is this. hard problem. How do you get from matter. to mind? And uh. he won the bet. There was a ceremony I went to a couple. years ago at uh NYU and uh. uh Coke pre- presented Chalmers with a. case of very fine um Madeira wine.

And uh and renewed the bet. He said, "All right, in another 25 years.". That's optimistic. How old are these. gentlemen? Uh. >> [laughter]. >> Coke is in his late 60s, so we'll see if. he's around for this, but uh and. Chalmers is a little bit younger. Um. it's it's such an interesting thought. because we know that the mind contains. if damaged, right? It. We know that there's certain aspects. There's certain parts of the mind where,

like lobotomies for instance, we know. that if we disturb it, it radically. affects behavior. We know that there's. parts of the mind that you can stimulate. that can actually recall memories, right? There's some some weird stuff. going on there. So, we know. it's somehow or another at least. functionally connected to consciousness. >> Oh, yeah. There's definitely a. relationship, but but if it's generating. consciousness, that's one thing, but it. could be, as you said earlier, it could. be receiving consciousness. And the same things would hold true that. if you damage parts of the brain Right.

Sure. Like a bad year. >> Yeah, or yeah, damage the television, right? Um so, that that's That doesn't. determine the truth of either theory. And then the other one is panpsychism, which you were alluding to. I don't know. if that's Rupert Sheldrake. Would he I. think he would believe more in the field. of consciousness. Yeah, right. He was a. morphic resonance guy, but I think he. also subscribed to this idea that things. contain consciousness. It's not his, but you know what I mean.

It's Well, it's been it's pretty. universal, right? There's a lot of. people that have subscribed to this idea. that everything has consciousness. Yeah. Uh that that even the particles that. this table is made of have some eensy. little bit of of psyche. And the. challenge there is So, that that that. solves the problem of how did it evolve? It didn't evolve, it was always here. Mhm. But then you have this other. problem like how Well, how do you take. these If every one of our cells is made. of particles that are conscious, how do. you combine them in such a way that you. get the sort of consciousness we have?

Uh-huh. It's called the combination. problem, and nobody solved that. It's some You know, it's a really deep. mystery. And. uh this is a this is an odd book in some. ways in that. I don't know if this is very selling, but uh you'll know less at the end than. you do at the beginning. >> [laughter]. >> But it's a fun ride. Oh, it's Yeah, I. think it's a great ride. It was a great. ride for me. I learned so much. Well, it's a fun ride to consider these things. that no one can really figure out or not. yet. Yeah. And also just to be put in. touch with the fact you have this marvel.

going on in your head all the time. You. have a voice in your head, you know, we're talking to each other, but you've. got another voice going on thinking what. you're going to ask the you know, what. the next question is, maybe what you're going to have for. dinner, you know, this It's It's this. It's this amazing interior space we. have. >> Yeah. And nobody understands how it came. to be. And you can manage it. Which is. also interesting. Because like I don't. think about what I'm going to have for. dinner. That's [laughter] That's the. thing. That's the way to stay No, but. any of those things. That's the way to. stay locked in in a podcast. Yeah,

that's true. >> thing cuz you can let your mind wander, especially if someone on the other side. is boring. Yeah. And then I'm [laughter]. like, oh no, this conversation's going. to be pulling teeth. And then I start. thinking about a new joke I'm working on. or oh, I got to get my car fixed. Well, that's called spotlight consciousness. when you can like really like put the. blinders on. >> Yes. And and rule everything out. And. that's opposed to uh lantern. consciousness where you're taking in all. sorts of information, you're letting. your mind Yeah.

>> wander. And that you know, they both have their. value. For For For our careers, spotlight consciousness is essential for. our work. We have to be able to focus. Uh to get through school, we have to be. able to focus. But, you know, children have this other. kind of consciousness that's really wild. cuz they're very undisciplined. They. can't stay on task, but they're taking. in so much information and the world is. just full of wonder and awe. And um. uh. and psychedelics res- you know, is a way.

to recover that kind of consciousness. cuz you you're getting lots of sensory. information from all over the place. It's very hard to focus. Um. and uh. so it's a taste of that other, you know, childhood consciousness. Yeah, I always say that about marijuana. as well. Like there's a thing about. marijuana that people always say that it. makes them paranoid. And I say it makes. you aware of all the things you should. be paranoid about. >> [laughter]. >> It's like like you're very we're very. vulnerable creatures. You know, but we.

like to pretend that we are not, you. know, which is I found that out of all. of my friends, the ones that have tried. marijuana and hated it are all the ones. that are control freaks. Mm. Yeah, cuz. you have to give up control. >> they're all really buttoned-down, very. serious, like really worried about. outcomes, really concentrating on their. career, really worried about. you know, just certain things that are. just. a part of their daily life and then they. get a couple of hits of good weed and.

then they're like, "Oh my god, we're on. a planet.". >> [laughter]. >> You start freaking out like, "Oh my god, none of this makes sense. All this is. crazy.". You know, um. The best piece of advice that I had when. I was. you know, starting my exploration of. psychedelics is. you have to surrender. >> Yes. If you resist, you're going to be. miserable. You're going to get. so anxious and so paranoid. >> Yeah. >> And if you let go, it's going to work.

out. >> Yeah, you just got to be able to accept. whatever it's showing you. And um. you know, we live in a very strange. culture where that's illegal. >> [laughter]. >> One of one of the most. >> everywhere, right? Everywhere it's. changing. Well, it is changing, fortunately, and there's some talk about. it changing federally. You know, I. actually talked to RFK Jr. about that. There's some amazing therapies that are. hugely beneficial to veterans, police. officers, people with severe PTSD that. experienced, you know, horrors that the.

average person never has to experience, and then they're forced to just like go. back there. released, go back to regular life. I. know you've served us in. overseas, and you've seen people blow. up, but now go to the supermarket. >> SSRI and be okay. And you know, I know a. bunch of them, and so many of them have. benefited particularly from ibogaine. Yep. Ibogaine, um the work that Rick. Doblin and MAPS has done, yes, MDMA and. and psilocybin. Those three are the big. ones that I think.

Well, you know, I heard a lot of. positive noise out of the administration. at the beginning that they were um very. much in favor of of um approving, the. FDA approving MDMA first, and then. psilocybin. I don't think we're there. with ibogaine yet, just cuz the research. hasn't been done. Although it has shown great benefit. anecdotally. But something happened in the last month. or two, um. and there is uh there was um. either Compass Pathways that was uh.

going to submit uh for psilocybin. therapy, or MAPS with um was on a list of five. drugs that were going to get an. expedited approval process. This list went up to the White House, and. the psychedelic was taken off it. So, there's somebody in the White House who. doesn't want to see this happen. Um so, it may slow down, even even if. RFK Jr. is in favor, and some other. people at the FDA are in favor. Um and maybe they're just waiting to get. past the election.

It could be that it's too controversial. for something to do before the midterms. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um that's a gross way to. live your life. Oh. >> Always worrying about midterms and. elections, and you can't do what you. actually want to do or think is right to. do cuz you're worried about public. perception. It's just. >> And I don't think it would be unpopular. I mean, the fact that it's helpful to. vets and first responders and women who. have been victims of sexual abuse. Seems. to me that's a very sympathetic group of. people.

>> Yeah. And everyone has experienced loss. of family members. There's a bunch of. different things that it can help you. with that that are way better for you. than just numbing your mind all day. long, which is what a lot of people are. choosing to do. And then unfortunately, a lot of people self-medicate as well. So then they get involved in. you know, all sorts of stuff that they. just pick up off the street, or they. start using alcohol, you know, and Well, you know, it's a. this. to go back to consciousness, this is. this is a very common thing that people. want to be less conscious. Right.

>> And I get that if you had trauma, um if you're if you're a ruminator, and. being in your mind is a really scary. place to be. It doesn't solve anything, but you have. all these techniques we have for muting. consciousness and just being less aware, less present. And. one of the things that I concluded after. doing all this research on consciousness. is that um. it's funny. I I was going down this path.

of tight focus, solve, you know, it was. a very kind of western male. framework, which we got a problem, what's the solution? Hard problem of. consciousness, what's the right theory? And at a certain point I realized, okay, that's an interesting question. It's. probably not solvable now. But there is. this incredible phenomenon that that we. have this interior space where we have. complete mental freedom, total privacy. We can think whatever we. want. And we're and we're giving it away.

Um we're we're either, you know, muffling it with drugs and things like. that. Or we're filling that time with social. media, you know, scrolling. Um. uh you know, I mean, we've heard about. hacking our attention and and we know. these algorithms, you know, from social. media are very good at like giving us. these little dopamine hits. But um. that's that's time that we used to spend. in spontaneous thought, you know, daydreaming, mind wandering, which can.

be very creative. So, um I I I came out of it thinking, "No, I might not solve consciousness, but I'm. going to appreciate it. I'm going to use. it. I'm going to um. create a space for it. And and, you. know, meditate is one way, using. psychedelics is another way. These are. all ways to be in your head and explore. what's there, which is kind of. miraculous.". Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways. to do it. I mean, some people like to do. it through running. Yeah. You know, running is.

also they've found one of the things. they've found recently is that running. with when in terms of endogenous. cannabinoids, like runner's high is an. actual real thing. >> a real thing. There's a drug released. that feels great and it's rewarding you. for. >> but it doesn't [ __ ] with your. perceptions, it doesn't mess with your. motor skills, doesn't cloud your. judgment, it just makes you feel great. >> Yeah. Yeah. Experiences of awe do this, too. You know, you go to the Grand. Canyon or something and or a great piece.

of art and you have this feeling of like. powerful. presence and and it's very interesting. and it shrinks the ego. I have a a good friend who's a colleague. at Berkeley, a. psychologist who studies awe, um and uh uh. he does this cool experiment where he. has people um draw a picture of. themselves on graph paper, you know, just stick figure or something like. that. And then he takes them river. rafting or something like that. Or even.

just shows them a a picture of Yosemite. And then he has them draw themselves. again, and they draw themselves at like. half the size. Because their sense of self has been. overwhelmed by this transcendent. experience. Oh. >> And uh so he calls it the the small. self. And it feels good. I mean, we're. we're so. kind of weird about the self, you know, we celebrate it, right? Self-confidence, we want our kids to have, you know, self-esteem and self-assurance. Yet we. do all sorts of things to get away from. it. Um to over you know, to transcend.

it. Well, I think it's because without. those things you're never going to make. it in life. >> Yes. It's adaptive. You definitely it's. definitely gets things done, but it also. isolates you, right? Cuz the ego builds. walls. And um and when the walls come. down, we feel like we're part of. something much larger, and that feels. really good. Well, I think my advice to. people is once you get competency in a. in a thing, forget about the. self-respect and so forget about all. that self stuff. And just concentrate on.

the thing. Whatever it is. Yeah. And you. can find some sort of meditative. at least beneficial like what whatever. you get from meditation is which is like. a cleansing of the mind. >> Mhm. Like a lot of people find that. through archery. You know, archery is a a weird thing. because at the moment of releasing the. arrow, it's like almost impossible to. think about anything else. All you're. thinking about is hitting the target. >> Mhm. And there's so many different. things that you have to have in.

position, there's so much going on that. people when they're troubled love to go. to an archery range and just hit. targets, and it just clears your mind. out. This episode is brought to you by. Armra. Every week there's some new. wellness hack that people swear by and. after a while you start thinking. why do we think we can just outsmart our. bodies? That's why Armra colostrum. caught my attention. It's something the. body already recognizes and has hundreds. of these specialized nutrients for gut.

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>> It really is. But if you're thinking. about yourself and your self-image, like. that's not going to It's not going to. come. It's not. It's not. It's a It's a. interesting trap. You know, um. we we've had these discussions in. stand-up comedy about joke thieves and. um they don't really make it anymore. because the internet The internet has. essentially like eliminated that problem. for the most part. Um but. the kind of mentality that makes you. steal a joke is the exact kind of.

mentality that keeps you from writing a. joke. Mhm. >> So the kind of people that began their. career stealing material, what happens. is like early on they'll have like one. good comedy special because it's got a. bunch of other people's material in it. And then they get outed. And so then. they have to show they can do another. and the other specials are always. terrible. >> Awful. I mean, unbelievably awful. Like. someone's doing a cheap impression of. the original person who had all this. great insight. Right. >> Because the very thing that keeps you. from doing it is the thing that you've.

been doing. Like thinking about. yourself, like I'm going to take these. jokes and I'm going to make it. I'm. going to have a big career. People are. going to laugh, they're going to love. me. Here we go. With no regard. whatsoever for that other person's. creativity. That is like. >> takes you out of Yeah. >> your own creativity. Right. >> It's weird. It is weird. >> It's weird because like. everybody that I've ever talked to. that's either an author or even. musicians or comedians, when something. comes to them when they're writing, it's. like it comes from somewhere else. It's.

like I didn't even write it. >> It's and you know, we call we we talk. about being in the zone. And there are. times when you're writing, it doesn't. happen every day, but there are times. when you're writing where you're just. not thinking, but one sentence after. another after another and you don't know. where they're coming from. And it's a it's a wonderful feeling. Well, Stephen King used to get. obliterated so that he could get to that. spot. Like there's books. >> you mean obliterated? Like cocaine, alcohol. Like his best work, like he. wrote Cujo, he didn't even remember it. He didn't remember any of it. He was.

obliterated. He would just drink like. cases of beer and do lines of coke and. write this [ __ ] insane fiction. And. he didn't know where it was coming from. You know, but I mean, he showed up every. day and sat down with the computer and. and then it all came out. And. >> a weird mix of being disciplined and. something else. But it's very common. amongst writers. Like Hunter Thompson, same sort of situation. Well, a lot of. writers do that after they've written. They don't I mean I don't know how many. writers write under the influence. Oh, I.

know a few. >> Yeah. Yeah, I know quite a few. That's. interesting. I know a lot of writers on. the influence of Adderall. Yeah. Well, and for me it's caffeine. Mhm. I mean, I. have a cup of coffee going the whole. time I'm writing and that kind of keeps. me Caffeine is a is a focus chemical. It's it's. it it definitely encourages the. spotlight consciousness. Well, you. talked about how you took this long. break from caffeine and then when you. took it again, it was almost like a. psychedelic for you. >> It was crazy how great it was.

>> [laughter]. >> No, it really was. It was like one of. the best drug experiences I've had. I. was 3 months off caffeine. I did this. fast for this book I was writing. And and then I was like, okay, now I'm. going to have a cup. I was like, wow. And I and I tried to hold on to that. You know, I said, all right, I'm I'm. only going to have coffee once a week. and not build up tolerance. Uh and and I I stuck to that for a few. weeks and then I had like a Thursday. deadline. I said, I don't know, I'll. move it up a couple days. And I just.

slippery slope and then I was back to. every day. I like it. >> [laughter]. >> I like a big French press where I can. put a lot of grinds in there. It gets. super strong. When I'm writing it's. like, woo, it just it just. >> It makes all the difference. >> you in. >> Yeah, I had trouble writing that that. 3-month period. I really did. I just my. focus I I felt like I had So, I have. pretty good concentration. I never had ADHD. I had it for those 3. months. >> That's crazy. Stephen King said the.

biggest. problem for him was quitting smoking. He said when he quit smoking cigarettes. it's like he really felt a slow down in. his. >> yeah, it's that ritual. It's the drug, too. And and and nicotine is another. focus drug, definitely, like speed or. something. Um but it's also writing is. so much about ritual. Like, I got my. coffee here, I have my cigarette here, and between every paragraph, you know. >> Yeah. So, um changing those rituals is. really hard. I mean I mean I only smoked. into my 20s and.

and quitting, you know, made it very. hard to write for a while. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's a very. ritualized process. Well, I worry about. the people that are like, especially. journalists. I know quite a few. journalists that have an Adderall. problem. Yeah. Because it's just like. you got a deadline, 2,000 words by, you. know, 2:00 a.m. Let's go. And that's. that's the drug for that, definitely. But it's just it's such a crutch. Yeah, and you can't sustain it long. term. And that definitely messes with.

your the way you think. Oh, yeah. I think over time, yeah. It. has to. Yeah. I mean, it's amphetamines. Right. Yeah. Now, that's why caffeine is. such a good drug. It doesn't have a lot. of I mean, you can overdo it. I think. I think it improves your health and. mental health up to about eight cups a. day. After that, in your risk of suicide and. depression go up. Did you have any communication with any. monks or any people who do TM or Did you.

when you were. >> Yeah, I had some interesting experiences. around that. So, there's a long section. on the self, which is one of the more. interesting. manifestations of consciousness, right? I mean, it's like that we have this idea. that we're there's a continuity, right? That who you are now is has some golden. thread attaching you to your 13-year-old. self. Which is really weird cuz your. body is every cell has turned over many, many times. You've changed in all sorts.

of ways. But this continuity is really important. to us. And you know, the Buddhists think the. self is an illusion. And I I interviewed a couple of them. Matthieu Ricard is a French-Nepalese. monk in his 80s who lives in Nepal. And he's written some really interesting. things on the self. And. I I said I'm I'm really curious about. how you can. find out for yourself whether the self. is real.

And you know, famously there was a. philosopher in the 18th century, David. Hume, who wanted to write about the. self. And and he thought, well, I'm. going to introspect to see what what. what I can learn about the self. And he. goes into his mind, you know, in a kind of meditation. And. he said, I found all sorts of. perceptions and feelings and thoughts, but I didn't find a thinker. I didn't. find a perceiver, and I didn't find a. feeler. There's like nobody home. And. it's a really interesting exercise to do. cuz you will find there's nobody home.

There's just the thoughts. And And who's. thinking them? Not clear. And anyway, so. this Buddhist um. monk. said, "Are Are there any meditations. that help with this?" And he said, "Yeah." And he gave me one. He says, "Think of your mind as a house with many. rooms. And um there's a thief somewhere in the. house. And go room by room in your head. and look for the thief. And you will. find no thief. And then sit with that.

that finding.". Um And that thief is the self. And um. uh So, I did it twice. The first time I did it. >> the self have to be a thief? >> I don't know. It's just a metaphor. I. know cuz he he's a negative take on the. self. >> bat? Does he have a gun? Like you're. looking for someone in your house. That's kind of crazy. >> You're not wrong. Um. Anyway, uh So, the first time I did it, this is. kind of weird. I was interviewing this. hypnotist at Stanford named David. Spiegel. And he's a psychiatrist who.

uses hypnotism. Really interesting guy. And he uses hypnotism to help people. with multiple personality disorders. He. can actually make them change which. person they're accessing. You know, these are people whose whose. consciousness contains could be 20. different people. Um. And I said, "Could we do a test? Um And. can you put me under, hypnotize me?" And. then I wanted to do that exercise going. through the house. So, he did. First thing he does is um I.

don't know if you Have you ever been. hypnotized? >> Yes. Yeah, okay. For giving up. cigarettes or something? >> No, no. I have a friend who is my friend. Vinnie Schormann. He is a mental coach. and um a hypnotist. He works with. fighters. Oh, okay. >> I. I had him on the podcast a few times and. I was just curious as what the. experience was like. So, I said, "Well,". and he said, "Well, is there anything. you want to change?" I said, "Oh, I kind. of procrastinate too much. There's a few. things that I do that I don't like. You. know, I'm kind of lazy about certain. things." I like to ferret out, like,

what is that? Like, what what's the the. heart of that? Um, what I was shocked. about the experience of being hypnotized. was that, um, first of all, that it works, that you. really are in this very bizarre altered. state, >> Yeah. >> I was very aware that I was in this. altered state, but I didn't have the the. desire to get out of it. >> Yeah. First of all, Vinnie's a friend. I. felt very relaxed. I was in my studio, just sitting on a couch. I was chill. Um, but it was, uh, very strange. It's.

like, uh, a you like, uh, almost, you know, to use the room. metaphor, it was almost like I was in a. room that I didn't know I had. Interesting. >> Yeah, it's it's like a trance. It's a. light trance. >> A light trance, but, you know, it's not like I would like go. kill the president. Like, it's not like. I would be like, "Okay." Like, I. >> Yeah, no, they can't make you do things. you don't want to do. That's that's the. myth. But, what do you think they were. doing when they were doing that MK Ultra. stuff? When they were trying to figure. out if they could Mind control. Yeah.

>> Yeah. No, they were they were they had. the idea, well, let me just finish the story and. then we'll get back to MK [laughter]. Ultra. That's what I do. I go all over. the place. I'm sorry. >> Uh, but hypnosis. >> So, so he puts me in. Yeah, it's a real. thing and I didn't realize it and it can. be very therapeutic, but not everyone. can be hypnotized. >> Right. >> thing he does is a is a sort of a test. And, uh, I scored like nine out of 10. So, I'm pretty easy to hypnotize. What. is the what's the thing that would keep. you from being hypnotized? I don't know,

but some people there's a real variation. among humans in their hypnotizability is. the word they use and, uh, I don't know. what would. >> Is it control freaks? That's a good. question. It could well be. I'm not. sure. I could I could ask David Spiegel, definitely. Super skeptical people. like this is [ __ ] the whole time. they're doing. Yeah, it maybe. I don't. know if it's about resistance or just. the nature of your mind or how. suggestible you are, you know, it may be. something like that. So, he puts me into. this hypnotic trance. He's this. wonderful baritone voice, which helps a.

lot. And um. and I start going from room to room. thinking I'm not going to find anything, but in every room I find a version of. myself. I find the 13-year-old Bar Mitzvah boy. I find the, you know, the 22-year-old, you know, college graduate moving to New. York City. I find the 32-year-old father. of an infant. You know, all with. different outfits. And um so, I found. many selves and but and they were. distinct. They were very different.

selves, but they were all me. So, it didn't work that time. Um and it was a just a interesting odd. result. Um and I did it another time. So, I had this other experience. Uh I. had heard of this Zen teacher named Joan. Halifax. She's also in her 80s. She has. a retreat center in Santa Fe called. Upaya. Very wise woman. She was married. to Stan Grof for in the 70s for a few. years and they were both giving. huge doses of LSD to people who were.

dying, like 600 micrograms of LSD. And. she herself was very involved with. psychedelics at the time. And then later. she discovered Zen Buddhism. Anyway, I had heard that she described. Upaya, this retreat center where people. can go on two-week retreats or whatever, as a factory for the deconstruction of. selves. And I was really curious about. that cuz I was writing this chapter on. the self. So, I asked her if I could come. And she said, "Yeah, come to the retreat.

center." And and I said I want to. interview you about your your philosophy. of of self. And um. I got there and she said she, you know, we had one conversation and says, "You. know, you're really lost in your head. with this book project. You need a different kind of experience. I'm going to send you to the cave.". So, there is she owns a piece of. property 50 mi north of Santa Fe. uh that she calls the retreat and um. it's got a bunch of very primitive huts.

um. and. some of the monks that work with her had. had dug out a cave in a south-facing. hillside. They dug a cell and a and then. put a sliding glass door. It's really. basic. No power, no water. Um. and she said, "I think you should spend. a few days in the cave. and think about the self um or. experience the self rather.". You know, I should have known that a Zen. priest was not going to be, you know, was going to be allergic to concept and. interpretation and and all the, you.

know, the the plane I was on. And she was it was kind of like a koan, an experiential koan. And it was a profound experience. Um. you know, our sense of self depends on other. people, you know, it's in the friction. between people that we define ourselves. and and figure out what we think. And when you're alone. and it was an extreme solitude for. several days, it's the edges of your. self kind of soften in a really. interesting way. And um I got in touch with uh.

the. the the just the um. the power of consciousness. I mean, I. was meditating like 4 or 5 hours a day. and then I was just chopping wood and. sweeping out the place and making a cup. of tea. Everything became kind of a. ritual. And when you do have rituals, you don't need volition. I mean, there. is no volition. So, that also arose the. sense of self. And the meditation was doing that and um. so it was a it was a really interesting.

experience. I finally got her sit down for an. interview. and the first thing she said was. I have divested of meaning. So, she she just doesn't like operating. on that on that, you know, intellectualized basis. And uh so, she. got me off of the dime and and, you. know, this there's a shift in the book. as it goes on from trying to understand. consciousness to to learning how to use. consciousness. >> Did you ask her to expand what she means. by that? I've divested in meaning. Yeah,

she's just not interested in. interpretation. She that Zen is just. about. um experiencing the sense field without. concept. Um without, you know, this kind of heady approach and that. theories of no interest in theories at. all of consciousness. It was just like. be with yourself in the middle of. nowhere. And uh yeah, it was a it was a priceless. experience. She's out there. Oh, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> She's out there. But, you know, she's.

also a grounded person. I I'd give you a. couple examples. She. uh she works with um people on death row. counseling them. Uh she. um you know, worked with people who were. dying. Uh had did a lot of hospice work. She um led uh a group of doctors and. dentists that once a year. went to these mountains in um Nepal. where they have no health care or. dentistry whatsoever. And she would. bring these volunteers and they would.

sleep in um tents in like 20° weather. circumnavigate this whole hill and she. did that till she was 80 once a year. So, she's a. >> Wow. she's a serious serious character. >> [laughter]. >> Sounds fun. Yeah. Sounds like a fun. person to talk to. >> Oh, she's great. >> a person that goes that far out there. It's like that, you know, they're. they're taking this concept of. meditation and consciousness to like a. black belt level. Yeah, and also for.

people who think that, you know, meditation and Buddhism is just kind of. disengaging from the world and, you. know, a kind of but it's not like that. at all. I mean, she's really engaged. >> that these monks go and they become. celibate and all they do is meditate. all day. Well, that's silly. That's a. lot of people's perception. Yeah. >> Like that's silly. Why are they doing. that? Go get a job. You need a nice. watch. >> [laughter]. >> What are you doing out there with. [ __ ] sandals on? >> [laughter]. >> But the thing is is at ultimately, I.

think one day when you look back on your. life, you'll say, "Was I happy? Was I enjoying the experience? Do I. think I did a good job being me?". And um everything that you can. find that can help you answer that. question, yes, uh I think you should explore. Oh, yeah. And there's going to be different things. that work better for different people. with different personalities. >> But explore is the key word. I mean, like take action to explore what works.

for you, what doesn't work for you, and. and break out of just kind of wrote Mhm. routine mindless behavior. I mean, we're. all, you know, we have these algorithms. that we follow and we get stuck in them. and uh. yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the. reasons taking a day out of your life to. have a psychedelic experience can be. incredibly valuable because um. first of all, no technology, right? It's. a day It's a day without phones. Um it's.

a day when you are in the space of your. head. It's a day when you're visiting. your subconscious. Um. and uh getting in touch with all the all. the things your mind can do. Yeah. And. we don't do that enough. And you can do. that in meditation, too. I think it's. harder work, but you can do that in. meditation. So, I I started to think in terms of the. that we're polluting our consciousness. now. And with social media, I think I think.

that, you know, that was a real issue. because they figured out how to monetize. our attention. Chatbots represent a much more serious. threat. Um, you know, you have people. falling in love with chatbots. You have. people turning to them at as as friends. 72% of American teens say they turn to. AI for companionship. 72%? >> 72%. This is the fastest uptake of any. technology in history. Um, it's already.

800 million people are using AI. Um, but. that I that's crazy that that many of. them use it as a friend. Yeah. Well, there are kids who come home from school. and they want and they have a chatbot on. their phone and they want to tell the. chatbot what happened during the day. before they tell their parents. Woah. There is a thing now called AI. psychosis, right? People who have done. lost touch with the reality because of. their relationship with chatbots. Um, you've heard about there've been a. couple suicides.

>> Mhm. Um, there was one. >> people. Yeah, basically. There was this. one kid, he was a teenager and he was. suicidal and he asked the chatbot, should I leave the noose I'm going to. use out somewhere my parents can see it? In other words, cry for help. The. chatbot said, no, no, keep this between. us. Woah. >> killed himself. Woah. So, um. that, you know, so it's one thing to. hack our attention. Here you're hacking. our ability to have human attachments,

right? I mean, this is the most. important thing to humans is to attach. to we're social creature. And um, these chatbots are getting. between people and interposing. themselves as the friend, the therapist, the. um, and then you have these people, too. I mean, the chatbots are incredibly. sycophantic, right? They tell you you're. a genius. >> amazing. And there are these uh there. was a couple cases. These were kind of. funny. Um, of uh people who were convinced. they'd solved some giant mathematical.

problem, like how to generate prime. numbers up to the millionth place or. something like that. And um. and they you know, they started writing. to mathematicians, "We figured out this. problem." You know, they're not even. mathematicians. And it was [ __ ] I. mean, they hadn't figured anything out. >> [laughter]. >> But. but it was I think ChatGPT 4, which was. like famously sycophantic, had convinced. them that they'd solved this major. problem. >> So, you know, I think that um. again, we're squandering this precious.

gift and and and and letting these uh. technologies um essentially colonize our. our consciousness. And so the question. then becomes, how do we get it back? How. you know, we need consciousness hygiene. Right? We need some uh you know, ways to. clear it out and uh and reclaim it. And. and you know, it's some of it's really. simple, like. take a fast from technology, right? You. know, you don't have to carry your phone. everywhere. We used to I was thinking the other day.

uh I was at the. uh. place in my neighborhood getting a cup. of coffee. And you know, while you're. waiting for the um. the barista to foam your drink or. whatever, we used to just sit there and you know, deal with. 90 seconds of boredom or 2 minutes of. boredom. And now we don't. We can't We. can't tolerate any boredom. And we take. our phones out and we scroll. And um. but that boredom was generative, right? If you sit doing nothing for long. enough, your mind will start going to work. And.

you'll And you'll daydream. You'll have. a fantasy. You'll start observing the. other people around you, you know? And and you'll be present to that place. in time. And now we're not. We just use. the phone to go somewhere else. And um so I I I just I don't know. I've. become a lot more deliberate about. consciousness hygiene. Which, you know, you could a nicer word would be care of. the soul. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely. accurate. And I I I think that um.

the the other thing that's going on is. you're absorbing the opinions of so many. other people that you find it very. difficult to formulate your own, which. leads to groupthink. Which is one of the. problems with echo chambers that people. find themselves. Your algorithm is. essentially things that you're. interested in and interacting with. And. a lot of those things you're finding. like-minded people. And they're all. agreeing that, you know, this is amazing. or this is a problem. And you sort of. lock onto that. And then you you see. what happens when people deviate from.

that narrative and they get attacked. >> Right. You don't want to get attacked, so you signal you're one of the good. guys. But you're not but it's not your. thoughts. I mean, you're you're you're. letting someone else. think for you. And there's nothing. worse. Um and you know, when you're scrolling, you're you know, you're. um you've got these little dopamine. hits. Great. But at someone else's rant, someone. else's obsession, someone else's. ideology. And um.

uh. you know, I get why people don't want to. think for themselves or it's easier to. let other people think for them. But um. I think we need to reclaim this. And I. agree I think it's a it's it's part of. our political problem. Well, I know. there's a lightness that I achieve when. I take you know, multiple days off. It's. generally like I feel it after the first. day. And then the second day I feel much. better. And the third day I feel even. better. I found this out once I broke my. phone in Hawaii. And it was kind of. funny like it just was randomly calling.

people. I dropped it. And I was I was. showing my wife like, "Look at this. It. just keeps calling people." And I hang. up. And I'm just holding it. I hang up, I call somebody else. Hang up, call. somebody else. It was like going through. my entire uh contact list. And so uh the. phone was broken. >> your friends. It was No, I just shut it. off. So it was broken. I couldn't use it. for anything else. So I couldn't get. email, I couldn't get anything. So I. shut it off and just left it in the. hotel. And then um I had to order a. phone and I was on Lanai and it took. like 3 days to get a phone delivered. there. So for those 3 days, I was like,

why don't I just live like this all the. time? >> Yeah, I know. I feel so much better. And. then immediately I got my phone. Let me. check Twitter. Let me I know. You can't. It's very I you know, I when I I just. decide, you know, all right, I'm online, you know, TSA line going to, you know, I'm just going to be here with this. boredom. And I'm not going to pull my phone out. And it you really have to fight. Yes. Uh. it's it's such an instinct. And it's. amazing. These things have only been. around for 10 or 12 years. >> And everyone's attached to it. I always.

say that if there was a drug that made. you stare at your hand for 6 hours a. day, >> [laughter]. >> it would be banned immediately. People. would be like, what the [ __ ] is wrong. with these people? They're just looking. at their hand. Like, this is a epidemic. >> And it's a new posture, too. You see it, right? You know? >> my one of my kids I went to pick her up. at school and there was this boy outside. reading his phone that he was hunched. over and he was resting his chin. >> [laughter]. >> like he couldn't even hold his head up. He was just resting his chin on his. chest and staring at his phone waiting. for his parents to pick him up. I'm. like, look at his neck. Yeah, I know.

He's going to have a neck problem. >> Osteoporosis. >> going to be a Bulging discs or. something. >> Yeah. It was just bizarre. I'm like, that. would be a painful for me to sit like. that. >> if orthopedists have diagnosed uh any. kind of like phone phone spine. >> Yeah, they certainly have. Yeah, they've. There's been discussions about that. about people having pains in their neck. because they're leaning over all day. staring at a phone. It's a bad one. It's. It's being in nature, too, is another. way. I mean, just like.

walking. Yeah. There's a there's a um a scientist I. interviewed who's really interesting. It's a woman named Kalina Christoff. Hadjilivias. She's Bulgarian-Canadian. And she studies spontaneous thought, which I didn't even think was a field. And it's a small field, but um. spontaneous thought is uh daydreaming, mind-wandering, fantasy, intuition, these bolts from the blue that we get. occasionally. We don't know where they. come from. And she's uh and she says and she does.

these cool experiments, you know, she'll. she'll put a experienced meditator in an. fMRI machine and tell him or her to. press a button when a thought intrudes. Cuz even if you're a good meditator, she. says every 10 seconds a thought. intrudes. And. she'll look at what part of the brain is. activated and when when when that when. the person presses the button. And one of the things she's found, and. this is mysterious, is that um. she sees activity in the hippocampus,

which is where memories are, um and some other things, but uh. essentially memories. Um 4 seconds before the person realizes. the thought has come Oh. >> into So, it takes it takes 4 seconds for. a thought to get from the subconscious, you know, or unconscious, into our. conscious awareness. What is it doing. during That's a That's a long time in. brain time. And we don't know exactly, but there's. some process, and maybe there's some. inhibitory process that it has to get.

through um to in order to become. conscious. Um but anyway, these are the. kind of things she works with. But she. says that we have less There's less. spontaneous thought going on today than. there was 20 years ago. And and the. reason is we're filling our our this the. space of our head with all this. nonsense. I wonder if it it's going to. have an impact on creative work. I want. to I don't know if it's even possible to. quantify this, but if you could see how. much creativity is generated by people.

pre and post social media. >> Yeah. My guess is there's less of it. because I I do think that that process I. don't know about you, but I get ideas. when I'm just, you know, walking around. thinking and not. online. And um. it's a space of creativity and we're. shrinking it. I used to tell you I told. you that I used to drive uh and deliver. newspapers. We were talking about. driving the snow. Um one of my most. creative periods was when my radio was. broken. So, I was just driving doing.

this task where you pick up the paper, fold it, put it in a plastic bag, chuck. it out the window. And I was just doing. this and checking off the And when I was. doing that, I would have all of my best. ideas. Like cuz I wasn't listening to, you know, morning radio. I wasn't. listening to a cassette on tape. I was. just Yeah. silence doing this thing and. then I was so creative when I was doing. that. That's generative boredom. >> Yes. Um yeah, it's a. >> It's hugely especially if there's no one.

around you, right? Cuz there's no one to. talk to to alleviate that boredom. It's. just you and your mind. >> Yeah. And it was a couple hours a day. So, a couple hours every day I would. have this moment where I was by myself. >> And were you writing jokes? What were. you doing? >> Yeah, yeah. I'd come up with ideas for. jokes. Some of my best ideas I ever came. up with back then were from driving. Yeah. I almost didn't want to quit the. job because of that. >> [laughter]. >> Could still be doing it. >> No, it was hell. Yeah. Cuz it was. Especially in the winter. Yeah, it was. Boston. It was, you know, I'd have to. get up at 5:00 in the morning every day.

It was rough. I find walking is where. that happens to me. Mhm. Same thing, right? >> um yeah, and and actually uh Colina. says, I mean, there people who studied. uh create creative people through. history. Um you know, people like. Einstein and um. uh. Beethoven and all these, you know, major. creative people in the sciences and in. the arts. and that they worked a short day. Um but. they spent a lot of time walking.

Interesting. And uh yeah, they work like. 3 or 4 hours and which is about all I. can write in a day. And then they'd take. a a long walk in the afternoon. They. also took a lot of vacations. They had a. lot of unstructured time. And that. that's where a lot of the creativity. comes. It doesn't always come when. you're like at the keyboard. Right. >> It It sometimes comes I mean certainly. solving problems. If I'm If I'm really. knotted up and I don't know. for me transitions, like where do I go. from here? Since I'm not writing narrative, it's. not always obvious.

Um you know, I need a transition. Um. and I don't know how to execute that. turn. Uh I'll take a walk and very often. it'll come to me or I'll wake up with. the answer. This episode is brought to. you by BetterHelp. In honor of. International Women's Day, BetterHelp is. celebrating the women in your life. I. think we can all appreciate everything. the women in our lives have done for us. and everyone deserves a little. self-care. A good way to get that is. through therapy because not only is.

therapy a time for you to focus on. yourself, it's also a way to create balance and. learn how to take care of your needs in. your daily life. And BetterHelp, as one. of the largest online therapy platforms, makes it so easy to meet with the right. therapist. All you need to do is fill. out a short questionnaire. You don't. even need to go into an office to meet. them. You can chat at home from your. couch, in your car, before you hit the. gym, or while you're walking your dog. Plus, if you aren't jiving with your. first match, you can switch to a.

different therapist whenever you need. Your emotional well-being matters. Find. support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at. betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhelp.com/jre. A lot writers like to write first and. then walk. And maybe even with a. recorder, so they can just walk and just. talk when an idea pops in their head, so. they don't lose it. >> Yeah, I have a little pad I carry with.

me. Yeah. Yeah. You like writing it down. better than recording it? Yeah, for me. Yeah, I need to see it. Um. So, another interesting um experiment I. did. uh for for this book was um this beeper. experiment. There was a There was a um. uh a scientist, a psychologist at the. University of uh Las Vegas, and for 50. years he's been doing the same one. experiment, which is sampling people's. inner experience. And he does this he you have a beeper.

that you carry around and a little. earpiece. And at random times of the day. you get. And. it's [laughter] like catches you, and. it's a very sudden rise to this beep. And you're And then he you have a little. pad, and you're supposed to write down. what you were thinking. Sounds really simple. It's actually. really hard. I mean, there's a lot of issues with it, like. you start thinking, what if it goes off. now? >> [laughter and gasps]. >> Uh Um that's one problem. But also. you're a little self-conscious. So, you.

do about five beeps over the course of. the day, and then he interviews you. about your about your these moments. Um. And you think you've got it down. Like I. I just give you A lot of my beeps were. about food. Um and so. I was um. I was seasoning a fillet of salmon and. walking to the refrigerator with it. And just at the. I was thinking to myself, [ __ ] I forgot. the pepper. >> [laughter]. >> I know. My thoughts were not that.

profound. And so I said, all right, pepper. It was. easy. [ __ ] pepper. Um. and but then when he came to interview. me, he said, well, did you hear the word. pepper or did you speak the word pepper? And that's that's, you know, suddenly. you realize there's voices in your head. You don't know if you're listening or. speaking. And so, anyway, you have this long. interrogation with him and he sorts. through all these things and he tries to. get you to isolate what was before what. he would call the footlights of. consciousness.

And I found it really hard. I couldn't. separate. the thought the way he wanted me to. because it was there were always several. things going on at once. Like I was. standing in the in a bakery. and I was deciding whether to buy a roll. or not. Another profound thought. And um. but at the same time I was like smelling. the baked goods and the cheeses that. they sold and this woman had this. horrible plaid on her skirt that was. like, you know, really unflattering and. and I was hearing people, you know,

behind me talking. And so, I couldn't pull a pull all the. threads and and we argued a lot. actually. Um but the the thing he's dis- I said, "Well, so after 50 years, what have you. learned about human thought?". And um he's very allergic to theory. He. he still has no theories about it, but. he did he did say, "Well, a lot of people think they're. verbal thinkers that that their thoughts. are in the form of words, but it turns. out that's kind of a minority. Um that.

there are a lot of people who think in. images. And then there are a lot of people who. think in unsymbolized thought, which I. don't totally understand, but these are. thoughts that are neither words or. images. I do have a sense in my own thought. process, which I never thought about. this way, that um a lot of my thoughts. are just on the verge of being word. thoughts, but I haven't found the words. yet, but I know the thought even though. I haven't put it into words. And.

um. uh William James called it uh. uh premonitory thinking, premonition. thinking It was the term he used. Um. So anyway, so we So I did this for. several days and we had many arguments. and I was saying, "Look, you can't. separate a thought. Every thought colors. the next thought." And um. there you know, there are these a. thought and you never have Anyway, we. just would go back and forth and I was. arguing why you can't separate thoughts. It's a stream. It's a very dynamic.

stream. And at the end we had a final session. And he's he's a very funny guy. He's. really allergic to theories. He At one. point I said I was writing a book on. consciousness and he said, "Good luck. with that.". >> [laughter]. >> Very encouraging. Anyway, um he said. Well, he described there are these. verbal thinkers and visual thinkers and. unsymbolized thinkers. And I find that really interesting cuz. we assume when we say the word, "What. are you thinking?" that we know and that.

you're thinking the way I'm thinking. But it turns out we're not. We That's. just an umbrella word for many different. styles of thinking. And and we're really different. Um so. that was one thing. But the other thing. he said in our last meeting on Zoom, he. said um. there's also a small subset of people. who just have very little inner life. And you're one of them. And I was like, "What?". You know, I write books, you know? >> [laughter]. >> I meditate. I ruminate. I mean How could.

he make that distinction though? How. does he know what's going on inside your. head? He felt that my inability to. isolate a thought. was evidence that there weren't thoughts. and that I was kind of backfilling with. all this other, you know, simultaneous. stuff going on. I mean, I I didn't agree. with him. I thought it was kind of. crazy. Um but that's that's what. >> asked him Have you had conversations. with him about other things see how he. thinks? No, he's very much in the therapist.

mode. Like he's asking the questions. >> Yeah, I'd like to know like how he. thinks. Yeah. If that's okay. >> mode is. Yeah, I'd like to talk to him. about. >> Now he would probably to say that. Um. anyway, he's posted all these. conversations on his website. So if. people really want to be bored, they can. check them out. >> That's a weird thing to say that you. know, especially someone like you who. writes and does think a lot and clearly. is is got some sort of dialogue going on. in your head. The idea that you don't. and that.

>> this guy can say that. I know. That. seems a little arrogant. Yeah, I think I. just didn't fit his template of like how. people think. Yeah, well, that's why you. should get a better therapist. Move. around. [laughter]. All right. Find somebody else. >> Good advice. I mean, it seems like. that's a very narrow I couldn't imagine. saying to anyone Yeah, you have very. little inner life. Yeah, well, regardless of what kind of, you know, theory I'm following or, you know, what. school of thought, I don't know what's.

going on in your head. I can't. It's not. possible. >> No. And that that's it. There's William. James said this, the great, you know, founder of American psychology, that the. breach between two consciousnesses is. one of the biggest breaches in nature. >> Yes. And we, you know, I don't know your. conscious for a fact. Um I assume it. because your behaviors mesh and we're. the same species and we have theory of. mind, we can imagine our way into. someone else's head, but it's a guess. It's a guess. And uh.

so there's I mean, that's part of the. mystery. Well, it's one of the things. that I do when I'm talking to people. I. I try to imagine Well, I've. so fortunate that I've been able to have. so many conversations with so many. different people, so many different ways. that people view the world. And when I'm. talking to someone, particularly if. they're very different from me or anyone. I know, I always try to put myself in. their head. >> Yeah. And I after they talk for 15 or 20. minutes, I I try to like recognize.

like how they approach things and see if. I I'm like, "What is that What's that. world like?" Like this person's. perspective especially so. >> operating on two tracks. I mean you're. you're holding the conversation Yeah. but you're also thinking I'm trying to. tune in. >> Yeah. Right? I'm trying to cuz. I I always feel like when someone is. like a great performance, like a great. comedian or a great musician, one of the. things that they're doing is they're. bringing you into their head. Yeah. >> Like there's a there's a hypnosis. When. someone sings an amazing song and the.

whole crowd is singing along, there's. there's a hypnotic element to that. Where when someone's like really killing. it on stage, their voice is just. perfect. It's like, "Oh, yeah." Like. you're in their head. Like it's. it's a it's a. >> It's a mind melt. >> It's a yeah, it is a mind melt. And. there's a little bit of that that goes. on in conversations. There's a mind. melt. And I. always try espe- especially if there's a. rational person, I always tried to put. myself in their head or at least empty. out mine Yeah. and let Right. them think.

and then try to just keep the. conversation rolling with just pure. curiosity. Yeah. But always. you know, try to think I don't think the. same way ever other people do. And maybe. maybe I can learn something from this. Maybe I can get something out of the way. they think. Seems to me you're you're. you have a real gift of curiosity. Um I mean that's a it's a big gift. I mean you're an intensely curious. person. Well, I've always been that way,

but I've been very fortunate that I've. had something like this that allowed me. to feed it. Yeah. You know, I mean the. the vast majority of time on my phone, I. just pursue curiosities. I don't I. really am mostly off social media. Yeah. I watch interesting YouTube videos. Like. I I went down a black hole rabbit hole. last night. Mhm. Oh my god. You want to. really break your brain? There was a. There's a video of Brian Cox where he's. talking about this black hole that they. found that's bigger than our entire. solar system.

Wow. It the event horizon extends far. beyond Pluto. That's That is mind-blowing. Yeah. It. when he was just He said, "We don't. understand why it exists. We don't. understand how it could have formed so. early in the universe, but yet there it. is." How do they measure it? How do they. know how big it is? >> [laughter]. >> I have no idea. I don't know. I'm assuming there's a lot. of revelations that have come out uh. since the implementation of the James. Webb telescope. >> Yeah. And this is That That is images.

are incredible. >> Insane. Yeah. Insane. And this is one. that's causing this very interesting um. new. uh theory or perspective on the age of. the universe. So, there is some galaxies. that they've found that shouldn't have. formed. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I read about this that. it's it's it's throwing all their. assumptions about the age of the. universe up for grabs. Which makes sense. cuz the further you can look back, the. more you're going to be able to see. The. assumption that the universe was 13.7. billion years old was essentially based.

on how far we could look back. Yeah. And. then, you know, the analysis of the the. radio waves that are coming from the. supposed explosion. And then you've got. guys like Sir Roger Penrose who say, "No, this this is a constant cycle. It's. not one birth of the universe. Yeah. >> It's It's boom, smash, boom, smash. forever. >> It's an accordion. >> And it's always happened, >> [laughter]. >> which is the ultimate mind [ __ ] Well, you know, the interesting thing about. astronomy Actually, astronomy and. consciousness studies have the same.

problem, which is. you can't get out of consciousness to. study it from a distance, right? Everything every tool you have to study. consciousness is a product of. consciousness, including science. The. scientific enterprise is a manifestation. of human consciousness. The the the problems you decide to. study, the the tools you have to do it. with, the scale at which you're working, it's all like a product of. consciousness. Astronomy, too, has to is. trying to understand something it can't.

get outside of, right? I mean, cuz its. subject is everything that there is, the. universe. So, you can do interesting things from. inside using telescopes and. you know, you can figure out how old. things are and and rates of expansion. and all this kind of stuff, but you you. can never get that god-like perspective. that we have with other scientific. problems. And this is, I think, part of. the reason we haven't solved the the. consciousness problem, that we can't get.

outside. We're in it's in we're in a. labyrinth, and everything everything we. know is consciousness. I mean, it which. is a very weird idea. I remember asking. uh Christoph Koch, the scientist I. mentioned earlier. I said, "Well, what would the world be like without any. consciousness?" And that is a trippy. thought. Um because everything we. perceive is, you know, the scale of. things. Like, we we we operate at this. scale, right? We're like 5 or 6 ft tall. Um we have bodies like this. But there's.

another world going on microscopically, and there's another world going on. macroscopically. So, if there's no. consciousness, what's the proper scale? There isn't any. And when I asked him this question, he. said, "Particles and waves. That's all. there is. There'd be nothing but. particles and waves. There might not. even be space-time.". That may be a product of consciousness, also. So, that was um kind of mind-blowing to. learn. That's the weirdest perspective. Is it consciousness is a part of.

reality, that it is how reality is. formed, and that without consciousness. and the perceiving of all this stuff, it. doesn't exist. >> Something exists, but it's not it has no. shape. It has no scale. It has no Right. Uh Cuz consciousness is what's. perceiving light, and we're perceiving. colors, and And it's constructing. reality. >> particles. Yeah, particles and waves. Waves and particles and atoms and. subatomic particles and when you get.

into the weirder stuff. And we give it. order. Right. I know, which I you know, it's just a mind-blowing idea. And. It It's a It really is a game changer. Cuz if you think about it that way, you. go, "Okay, well, what is all this solid. stuff?" Yeah. What is this? Like, does this even really exist, or. does it only exist when. >> this there's a famous uh Arthur. Eddington was a physicist early in the. 20th century. And he said, "The real. table is mostly space.".

And only in our consciousness and at our. scale is it solid. And um but at the scale of particle. physics, which is equally legitimate. scale, it's just wide-open space. Mm. Um. with these waves and particles, but a. lot of emptiness. Um. that was kind of mind-blowing, too. So, yeah. But, it's just such an. abstract concept for a person in their. car right now listening on the way to. work. Like, what the [ __ ] are you. talking about? >> Maybe they want to pull over. All this.

stuff is real. Yeah. >> It is, sort of, but. only if you're conscious. Well, you could think of consciousness. as the way the universe. experiences itself. >> Yeah. And um Well, that's what really. we're Like, what if the universe is. consciousness? Yeah. I mean, that's another way to look. at it. Maybe consciousness is part of. the universe. And And. but it's not giving it the order that we. give it. Um you know, we see at a. certain spectrum of light. This you. know, bees see at another spectrum of. light. You know, we're We are the world.

we behold, the world that appears to us. is the world that our senses allow us to. see. When I was doing this research on plant. intelligence, they have 20 senses. We. only have five. They're picking up magnetic fields, they're picking up pH, they're picking. up nitrogen levels. You know, they have. all these. >> know all this? Um there are researchers working on it. There's a group of botanists who call. themselves plant neurobiologists, knowing full well there are no neurons.

in plants. They're kind of trolling more. conventional botanists, and they're. doing these cool experiments with with. plants. Um. a couple examples of of some of these. amazing things plants can do. They can hear. Uh so, if you play a a recording of a. caterpillar munching on leaves, they'll. react, and they'll send chemicals into. their leaves to make them taste bad or. be toxic. Yeah. >> They can see. There are um there are vines that change.

their the shape of their leaves. depending on the plant they're twining. up in order to be hidden. How do they. see the shape and to imitate it? We. don't know. They um plants will um go toward a pipe. with water in it. because they can hear the water even. though it's totally dry, and they'll. send their um their roots down to it. >> [laughter]. >> They can hear the water? >> Yeah. They're There's a.

uh this plant neurobiologist showed me. this uh couple videos he'd made. I. actually just posted them on my website. Um. uh he he showed that a uh a corn plant's. roots can navigate a maze to get to. fertilizer. So, you put a little fertilizer in a. corner, and the root will find the most. direct route to the nitrogen. There was. a uh plumbing problem that I had in my. house in California, and um uh the. plumber couldn't figure out what was.

wrong. It was like the the the pipes. were stuck. And what what had happened. was in the backyard, one of the trees. the roots had gotten into the pipe and. formed like this tree. I mean, it was. huge. It looked like it when I pulled it. I put it up on my Instagram. See if you. can find it. It's it looked like a. muskrat. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, it was like dense with roots and. it was thick. It was like 3 ft long. It. was pretty That's it.

That was in my pipe. >> Oh my god. >> Isn't that crazy? Yeah. >> [clears throat]. >> What kind of tree was it? I don't know. I think it was an oak tree cuz there was. oak trees. Excuse [clears throat] me, in the. backyard where they dug up. That's wild. >> But look how thick it is. It's crazy. It's and it went through a. tiny little crack. Yeah. It I mean, it. probably forced the crack open and then. went in there and just really grew out. Yeah, well, it had a source of water. Yeah, but it's just kind of bananas that. somehow or another it figured out that.

there was water in that pipe. You know, we underestimate plants basically cuz we. can't see their behaviors. And and they. going to that point about scale. They. they have a they operate at a a time. scale that seems very slow to us. So, we don't notice. But if you use. time-lapse photography, you see what. they're up to. And it's it's pretty. amazing. Another another interesting um. video. that this guy showed me. His name is. Stefano Mancuso. He's an Italian. scientist, botanist. is um. how bean plants find a pole Mhm. to to.

grow up. And so, he grows these beans. and he has a metal pole on a dolly. And you know, I always assume they made. this pattern. Darwin called it. circumnutation. That you know, they they. go through the spiral. And I always. assume they just kind of did this till. they hit something. No, they know where. the pole is. And you watch this thing. and it's it's. going in circles, but it's. reaching and reaching. It looks like a. fly fisherman, you know, casting. And it finally gets to the pole. And so,

how does it know where the pole is in. space? Well, one theory is that every time the. cells divide, there's a little sound. that's produced. And that maybe they're. using echolocation like a bat. Kind of. bouncing it off of the pole, and that's. how they know where they are in space. We we still don't understand. >> [laughter]. >> I know, some amazing things. Um and also you can. teach a plant a certain behavior.

and it will remember for 28 days. So, they do this thing with sensitive. plants. You may have seen them in Hawaii. actually. It's a tropical plant. When. you touch it, the leaves collapse to. keep from being eaten. It's called. Mimosa Pudica. And um. normally if you shake it, it'll also do. this. And if you shake it repeatedly, it. learns to ignore that that stimulus. Um and it will remember 28 days and it. won't react when you do it. Um.

to to give you some comparison. um. fruit flies can only remember stuff for. 24 hours. Um and then they start over again. Um so, another fact about plants. I got really. deep into this. cuz I was trying to see, you know, these. these guys say plants are conscious. They have some kind of basic form of. conscience conscious. ness. Um. Here's another one. The anesthetics that we use to put us. out for surgery.

put plants out. So, a. a Venus flytrap, if you give it an. anesthetic, will not react when the bug. comes across it. Now, that is like really interesting cuz. it suggests they have two modes of. being, right? Sort of like, you know, unconscious. and conscious. Yeah. >> Or aware. Um so, Stefano believes that. they're uh conscious. Now, this raises. interesting ethical issues, right? If. plants are conscious,

it do they feel pain? And that I was. really a little worried about that. Um, you know, what if that beautiful smell. of a freshly mo- mown lawn is actually a. the chemical equivalent of a scream? >> [sighs]. >> Yeah. Um, but Stefano said he doesn't. think they feel pain. Um, why does he. think that? He said that pain would not. be adaptive for a creature that can't. run away. Well, if that's the case, then why do. they produce chemicals to make.

themselves taste worse? They they know. they know what's going on. They're aware. that they're being eaten, but that it. doesn't register to them as pain. I. don't know how he knows this, but. if he's wrong, then, you know, and we care about that, what's left to. eat? >> [laughter]. >> Well, I think you have to make the. assumption that life eats life. Yeah. And that And another scientist um. uh. um that I interviewed uh about this, who.

does think plants feel pain, says, "Look, it's just a fact of life. We have. to eat other species.". And um he was kind of, you know, gruff. about that. Um, but anyway, Stefano's idea is that uh. you know, being able to move, take your hand off. the hot stove, or run away, um then pain. is really useful. It's a really. important signal. But he But he also. points out that lots of plants like to. be eaten. I mean, you know, grass is. benefit from being with a ruminant, right? And that regenerates them. They.

want to be eaten. And then you have all. the fruits and nuts that they pro- seeds. that they produce that they want mammals. to take away, you know, and spread their. seeds. So, you don't have to worry about. um going beyond vegan. No, well, it just seems like a cycle. It. seems like a very. an. cycle that exists with all living. things. Yeah. >> And then of course when you die, right? The you know, plants eat meat. Yeah. They they consume. >> carnivores. >> Yeah, that's the thing. They consume all.

the dead animals that die near them. >> Yeah. And and uh fungi. Yeah, and fungi. Well, that's the other weird things, the. mycelium that they use to communicate. with under Well, that's another really. interesting case of intelligence in. nature, right? I mean, you know, you. probably done shows on this, but you. know, the way they they uh use mycelium. to send nutrients to their children. um or or share them in the forest. Um. Allocate resources to certain plants. that needed them more. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also could. communicate risk. I mean, that that.

there's a threat. Um and and so there. alarm signals that go out. Um. You know, the the the the overall. place we're getting to with this as we. look at consciousness in all these other. species is that it's the world is just a. lot more alive than we thought. And that. we've been. you know, the whole legacy of the. enlightenment and Western science has. been that like we have some monopoly on. on this stuff and everything else is. more or less dead or you know, we can. use it as we wish.

But. we're seeing I I think we're approaching. like a Copernican moment for our. species. Um you know, when. Copernicus came along and he said. actually the earth revolves around the. sun, not the other way around. It was. like mind-blowing people that our. centrality in the universe had been. we've been dethroned. And we were dethroned again when, you. know, Darwin said we're produced we're. animals like all the other animals and. we evolved um from animals. That blew people's minds, too.

I think that we are we're kind of. democratizing consciousness, that. consciousness is is much more extensive. than we thought. And. the world is more animate than we. thought. And that's an old idea, you know, traditional cultures have always. believed that the world is full of. spirit and that you had to respect. animals and and all living things. And. and some to some cultures rocks also, you know, dead things. Um. So, I I think we're at this moment of.

reanimating the world right now and it's. science that's driving it. And I think. that's really exciting. It is exciting, but it's such a paradigm. shift in terms of people's perceptions. of the world that it's going to be. difficult for. like your average 40-year-old person. that works an office job to swallow. Yeah. Yeah. What also makes sense why. offices feel so soulless when you walk. into a thing and everything is made out. of synthetic material and plastics and.

metal and it's all. manufactured and you're under these. [ __ ] lights and it just feels wrong. >> Doesn't feel alive. >> No. Yeah. Doesn't feel alive at all. >> You might be just surrounded by things. that don't have consciousness cuz. they've been kind of stuffed into a form. and then stuck in place rather than. something that exists that works with. the earth. Like soil is alive, right? >> Right. So. >> And yeah, there's another example. Soil. is a lot more alive than we ever. realized. We we thought it was just.

dirt. Right. >> And now we know that there're, you know, a million critters in every teaspoonful. of soil. >> cool. channel that I follow on YouTube. It's a. guy who takes like rainwater or pond. water and he puts it in a jar with some. plants and he just leaves it there for. months and then he comes back and. there's all these living things moving. around it. See if you can find that guy. on on YouTube. It's fascinating. >> I so I I dug a pond or had a pond dug on. my property in Connecticut and and I.

watched life come to this pond. It's. just you know, it was just a hole with. water and within a month it was teeming. with life. It's just amazing. Like, how. does it get there? Right. >> Birds carry a lot of it in and frogs. carry a lot of it in. And I And I after. a month or two, I looked at it under a. microscope and you couldn't believe. It. was like a city of critters. Mhm. It was kind of amazing. >> like trout on lakes that are like way. high in the mountain and no one ever. stocked the lake. And they're like, "Okay, how did it get in there?" There's. all these theories. Birds pick up eggs.

and deposit them, I guess, is is one. way. Right, but like how do they get. fertilized? That's a good question. Maybe they're. already fertilized. Do you think? I don't know. Yes, that's it. >> This has lots of views, but Yeah, that's. it. >> Wait, on the left? Uh not on that. specific one. So, this guy, he just. takes pond water. or lake water or rain water and he puts. it in a jar and then he leaves it there. Yeah, it's like go to like day 60.

Where is that? Sorry. Uh on the top what top row where it says. day 60 to the right. See where it says. day 60? Click on that. So, he takes. these things. and then searches them after, you know, X amount of days and you see all this. stuff living in there, all these things. swimming around in there. This isn't the same guy, so there must. be other guys that do the same thing. But, you see these weird little. creatures that are floating around in. there and. Yeah, I brought my pond water to a.

biologist and he like what is that? >> is different cuz this guy's bringing in. He's making an actual aquarium. Yeah. >> The guy that I saw was just he. essentially just figured out how to. take a scoop of dirt and whatever is. alive that's in that dirt with some. muddy water and put it in a jar and put. more pond water in there and then just. leave it there. And then you see all. these weird little. They look They look like crustaceans, weird little shrimp looking things. >> Yeah. >> And some of them are killing the other. ones, so there's like a real ecosystem.

in there. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's Yeah, and it's just. created like overnight. Yeah. >> It's very cool. So, I think that this is like a a trend. of our times that's really important. that, you know, we went from this idea. of the dead world that we could exploit. to this other, you know, idea that it's. much more animate. And And of course, that's not That's the default for. humans. All traditional cultures believe. in animism, basically. Um it's also the default for kids, right? Kids think everything is animate.

until we knock it out of them in school. Yeah. And so, it's very interesting to. see science supporting this idea after. after all these years. And the other. thing that's kind of interesting is that. it's happening at the same time. that some people think AI's going to be. conscious. So, we're under pressure from both sides. I. mean, that we're getting these two, you. know, these two things happening at once. that machines may be may soon be smarter.

than we are, may be conscious, although. we could talk about it. I don't think. they can be conscious, but they can. certainly make us think they're. conscious. Um and then on the other hand, we have. the animals who are turn clearly are. conscious. And the research on animals. is like, they're down to plants, they're. down to insects that, you know, have. signs of I would use the word sentience. rather than consciousness cuz. consciousness implies interiority and. and, you know, um the the voice in your.

head and things like that. They have a. more basic form of consciousness that I. call sentience. >> Like dog consciousness? Yeah, I think. dogs are. higher conscious. I think they're more. conscious than uh than those simple. things. I would I would say dogs are. conscious, not just sentient. Is it just because they communicate with. us that we think that? I mean, why would. we assume if plants have all these. different senses and we see this. communication with them in terms of like. allocating resources to other plants. that need it, the use of mycelium, their. ability to do all these different.

things. >> Why Why are we assuming that just. because they can't move the way we move. >> Yeah. that they don't have more going. on? >> Right. Yeah, it's it's possible, but I. don't know what what good it would do. them. Like. plants what they get really good at, what matters to them is biochemistry. They have to produce chemicals either to. um poison their enemies or or confuse. them with you know, with drugs. Um. >> But they also want to grow and thrive. >> want to grow and thrive. >> exist in a community. Yes, they Oh,

definitely. They Right, so don't you. think that consciousness would be uh. essential in order to foster that. feeling of community? >> That's interesting. I hadn't thought. about that. Yeah. Yeah, that could be. Dogs are easy an easier case because. they communicate with us directly. >> They're clearly conscious. >> Yeah. In a way that's like very. profound. >> than we obviously. I mean. one of the um realizations I had when I. was in the cave was that. you know, we we often think that we're.

more conscious than animals, but. actually animals are more conscious than. we are. They have to be. They have to be. present because they get eaten if. they're not, right? >> Because we have this giant structure of. civilization and the security it gives. us and we have this technology that. allows us to check out. Um but I. actually think animals are more. conscious than we are. It's different, but they're if if we think of being. conscious is really being present to the. moment, dogs are very present to the moment.

Well, certainly animals are getting more. information about the environment than. we are. Yes. They have high much better. sense of smell, much better sense of. hearing. >> Yeah. There's a lot of different things. that they can do. Like animals seem to. be able to tell when you're nervous. Yeah. Oh, they read they read the. environment. They read other creatures. Yeah, and you know, we used to have more. skills when we had to survive in a. natural world in in nature. Um, you. know, we. I mean, you see this with traditional,

you know, with tribes, indigenous. tribes, that they have knowledge of. nature that far exceeds ours because. they need it to survive. But anyway, so. I I think we're going to get to a point. where we have to decide. whose team we're on. Are we like with these machines that. speak our language and speak in the. first person and sound like us? Right. Or are we with the animals that can feel. and suffer and die? Mhm. And um, and I. think that's going to be a a big choice.

for us to make as a civilization. Why do. you think that AI won't be conscious? The The most interesting line of. research, well, a couple of reasons. Um, the first is the idea that it can be. conscious, which is very common in. Silicon Valley. I talked to lots of. people there and they say, "Oh, it's. just a matter of time.". Some of that is confusion that. intelligence and consciousness. necessarily go together and they don't. They're very They're They have a. orthogonal relationship, right? I mean,

you know people who are. conscious and not too intelligent, right? And we all do. Um, so so it it's. not going to just come along for the. ride with intelligence as these machines. get more intelligent. But the belief. that AI can be conscious is based on a. metaphor that I think is. a crappy metaphor. And that is that the. brain is a kind of computer. And this is widely held. It's interesting to note that in history. whatever the cool cutting edge.

technology was brains were likened to. that. So, it was it was looms for a. while, it was uh clocks for a while, it. was telephone switchboards. Whatever was. the cool technology, surely that's what. that's how brains work. Now, it's. computers. But think about it. In a. computer, you have this sharp. distinction between hardware and. software. That's the key to their. success, and you can run the same. program on any number of different. hardwares. They're interchangeable. Brains aren't like that. There's no. distinction between hardware and.

software. Every experience you have, every memory, is a physical change to. the brain, to the way it's wired. Um you know, we start out with all these. connections and then they get pruned as. we grow up. Uh every brain is shaped by its. experience. So, this idea that you could. separate that consciousness is some kind. of software that you could run on other. things besides. um meat, um I just think doesn't hold. up. Well, if the universe is.

experiencing itself subjectively through. consciousness, why why does it have to. be only biological consciousness? It. doesn't have to be. >> But if there is a a technology that is. invented that essentially does all the. things that a human body does. physically, and also interacts with. consciousness, the consciousness of the. universe. Yeah, I mean. >> Like if if hypothetically. >> Hypothetically, if the universe is. conscious, if we are using the mind as.

essentially an antenna to tune into. consciousness, Other things could tune in. >> make an an antenna. Yes, absolutely. It's also likely that if we are ever. visited by aliens, that they will have some kind of. consciousness, and it may not be. meat-based, right? >> Right. Right. What may be at one point. in time it was, but they realized there's biological. limitations in terms of its ability to. evolve that it can be far surpassed with. technology. Yeah, I mean that or it just.

it it evolved in a different way, or you. know, or they're channeling it in a. different way. But the other reason I don't see it. happening with computers as we know. them, um. cuz that's you know, that's the debate. now, whether these computers we have. that, you know, these large language. models and the next generation can be. conscious. Is that, um, the research that I found. most persuasive about consciousness. is, uh, uh, basically has consciousness. beginning with feelings, not thoughts.

In other words, it's embodied. And I have to just develop this a little. bit, um, but we, you know, the brain. exists to keep the body alive, not the. other way around. Although we tend, since we identify with our heads, where. most of our senses are, we we lose track. of that. And the body speaks to the brain in. feelings, right? You know, feelings of. hunger, itchiness, warmth, cold, um, but also feelings of shame, uh, when our.

social standing is not, you know, has. been damaged. Um, anyway, we have these. feelings, they depend on a body. Um, feelings have no weight if you're. not vulnerable, your body isn't. vulnerable. Um, and probably mortal. Um, so. consciousness is embodied in a really. critical way. And computers are not. Now, robots will be, and I actually. fought I interview a guy a a scientist.

at USC who is trying to make a. vulnerable robot. So, he's essentially upholstering the. thing with skin that can tear and be. damaged. And he's filling the skin with all these. sensors. so that it can be like us and be. vulnerable and and generate feelings. that are how consciousness begins. So, for a long time we thought consciousness. had to be in the cortex, right? The the. most human, newest part of the brain,

the outer covering. And that's where. rational thought and executive function. are and all these kind of things. Um. but as it turns out, it really begins. with feelings in the brain stem. Let's say you have a feeling of hunger, it registers in the upper brain stem and. only later as the cortex get involved. like helping you figure out how are you. going to feed yourself like imagining, you know, a meal counterfactuals of. different meals or making a reservation. at a restaurant. All all those are. cortical things, but it begins in the.

brain stem with feelings. So if that is true and I find that. really persuasive because. people born without a cortex are still. conscious. Uh animals that you take the cortex out. still show signs of consciousness. Um. whereas if you damage the upper brain. stem. um you're out, you know, you're you're. unconscious. So if this is true and. consciousness is this embodied. phenomenon that depends on having a body.

to mean anything. Um I don't see how machines are going to. do that. But isn't the keyword there if? Yeah, if. Yeah. Definitely. I mean. >> Because if consciousness is just. something that we're tuning into that's. around us all the time that. >> be other ways to do it. Right. >> But it won't be these computers we're. building right now. >> Why's that? Because they're designed um. you know, they're good at so. here's a paradox of computers. Computers. are really good. It's called Moravec's. Moravec's paradox. Computers are really.

good at the highest kinds of rational. thought, right? They can play chess and. go, they can simulate real thinking and. some say some people say they do think. Um. the more uh primitive kinds of things. that go on in our brain including uh. elaborate movement, um changing diapers, they're very bad at that. Um you would. never trust a a robot to do that as much. as you might want to. Um. they're um Um, they're not good at that.

kind of uh emotional stuff. Um, you know, the the more limbic part. of our brain. They can't do that. Um, Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely yet. But, you. know, I mean, if we go out far enough, anything's possible. That's the point. >> Yeah. The point is these things, what. we're looking at now is essentially. single-celled organism becoming. multi-celled organism. Yeah. I mean, the. potential for what they could become is. unlimited, especially once they start.

making better versions of themselves. Well, they and they will. They've done. this. This is what Chat GPT-5 is. Chat. GPT-5 is essentially programmed by Chat. GPT. Right. They they've kind of given. up on the idea of programming these. things. They're doing it themselves. They're letting them program themselves. >> Yeah. Which is a dumb idea if you want. to survive. I agree. Look, the idea that. we give rights to these machines or. personhood, I think it's really stupid. cuz then you lose control completely. Well, it's probably coming because.

people are very short-sighted. And they. I think there's a romantic idea that. you're creating a life. And I think. there's also the real risk that people. are going to worship this life, and that. this life will be far superior to what. we are. And so, there'll be a group of. people that that's their new religion. Yeah, no, I there are signs of that. already. I think that's really dangerous. You. know, it's it's interesting talking to. Silicon Valley people and they're. talking about giving moral consideration. to these to these machines. It's like, really? They're thinking.

about yachts. They're. >> [laughter]. >> just coming up with rationalizations for. why they should keep their foot on the. gas. Well, yes, they are. I mean, it's. it's just all a way of saying, "Look how. powerful this technology is. Don't you. want to invest?" And it's also the idea. that we have enemies. And so, we have to. develop before they do. >> Yeah, the race the race with China. I. think it'll turn out to be. a real historical tragedy that this. technology came of age during this. administration because this. administration has no stomach to.

regulate it at all. But can they? They could. >> But here's the question. If it is a national security threat, like if China developing all powerful. general super intelligence that can. automate everything, do everything. It's dangerous if they get that before. we do. Yeah, but you know, look what. happened with nukes, right? We made. deals, right? To control them. I mean, we'd have to make, you know, But but why. would you make a new a nuke deal makes. sense cuz it's mutually assured. destruction for everybody. Yeah. This.

doesn't. This you could run it and. control everything and not kill anybody. with it, but you're incredibly powerful. You are in control of all the resources. of the world, all the computer systems. of the wall world, all of the power. grids, everything. Yeah, but if you're really concerned. with that, why are you why is Trump. selling these chips to China? Why is he. willing to give the give away the, you. know, the crown jewels of like. these chips? >> selling them through Nvidia, is that. what you mean? >> Yeah, he gave them permission to to send.

powerful chips to China. I don't I don't. know how to square that with the. national security threat. It's probably. some sort of a trade deal A, and there's. probably some sort of an assumption that. it doesn't matter because everyone's. doing it. And this is just a another way to maybe. balance out the tariffs or get some. concessions on certain things. >> It's very short-sighted, but I also. think this uh. I. This is kind of like an Oppenheimer. thing, right? Oppenheimer didn't really.

want to make a nuclear bomb, but there's. this conundrum. If you don't make it, the Nazis are going to make it. So, what. do you do? Well, there's also there's a. second thing going on, the intellectual. satisfaction of proving you can do it. Right. And that, you know, is. irresistible. And a lot of these guys, you know, will say they'll cite um uh. Richard Feynman, the physicist, who they. found on his blackboard when he died, "If I can't build it, I don't understand. it.".

So, one of the positive things about. this effort to create conscious. computers, which is going on, I follow a. group in the book who are who are trying. to make a conscious computer. I don't think they're going to succeed, but even the failure is going to teach. us important things about consciousness. It's a good It's a good way to. understand something by trying to create. it. And it'll force them to come up with. definitions of consciousness and and. uh you know, what the minimum. requirements are for consciousness. Uh and it may help us decide whether it.

is, you know, a transmission theory, you. know, that we're we're tuning it in or. or it's generated from inside. So, I. think intellectually, it's a really. interesting project, but I think you. need guardrails guardrails. So, this guy. who's doing the. building the robot that can feel, you. know, that has feelings cuz he you can. tear its skin. I asked him, I said, "So, will those feelings be real, you know, that your robot's going to have?" And it. was He said, "Um well, I thought so.

until I had this experience on. 5-MeO-DMT.". >> [laughter]. >> I said, "What happened?" He said, you know, he described his trip in more. detail than you need to know, and he. says, "And I realized there's a spark of the. divine in us that no computer is ever. going to have.". But he still it didn't stop him. He's. going ahead. He's He's trying to build. it. I don't know if he's right. Um I think there might be a spark of. divine that these things don't have, but. it doesn't mean that their future.

versions that might have it. >> Especially when you scale out. a thousand years, a hundred thousand. years, however long we're going to. survive. If these things do become. sentient and autonomous and have the. ability to create better versions of. itself and have a mandate in order to do. that to survive. I could see it becoming the superior. life form. Not just that, beyond any. comprehension of what we could even. imagine the power of an intelligence.

to to use and to harness in the. universe. Like it it could conceivably become. something like a god. And I have this. very strange theory about biological. life in particular and intelligent life. on Earth. Is that the reason why we have this. insatiable thirst for innovation. and the reason why we have materialism, the reason why we're obsessed with. objects even though we have a finite. life form life life span is cuz that. finite life span, if you thought about.

it, you wouldn't you wouldn't be. interested in materialism, but. materialism fuels this desire for. innovation because. you don't need a new phone, but there's. a new phone that just came out. Aren't. you going to get it? And so the more. people get it and the more people want. to show how they got it, that sort of. materialism fuels this innovation that. ultimately leads to the creation of. artificial intelligence. >> Mhm. And I think it would always do. that. I think it's bees making a. beehive. And I think that's just what we. do. I think it just takes a long time.

for us to create this artificial life. It might be why we're here. We might. that might be our literal purpose in the. universe. >> our successor species. >> Yes. And that might be how well, obviously like we're so flawed that we. can't even imagine a world without war. Yeah. If you poll the average person, what what are the possibility of war. ending in your lifetime? Almost. everyone's going to say zero. It's a. part of human nature. An intelligence unshackled by biological. need, unshackled by all the things that. we have, our need to procreate, our need.

for social status, all these weird. things that keep us moving in this. strange world that we live in. >> add weird and good things, but anyway. Some of them are really good. Yeah, well. good for us. Sure, not so great for you. know, the land the land that you trample. to put a foundation for the house that. you've always dreamed of. >> True, but I think our mortality is part. of what gives meaning to our lives. Sure. >> And uh Right. It's like playing a video. game on god mode. It's boring. >> Right. >> die. You just. >> [laughter]. >> shoot everything. You're like, "What is. the purpose of this?". >> right? There's no weight to anything. For us. For us. For us. But, if this.

thing does become essentially all. powerful, if it just if you keep scaling. outward, you could imagine it being akin. to a god. Yeah. >> And. that might be what god is. It might be. we give birth to god through this. It. sounds crazy. Well, we created god once. already, right? I mean many people believe that, right? That god is a creation of of human. society. >> think?

Yeah, people who aren't believers. believe that we. >> Oh, that we've artificially created this. thing. Yeah, in our heads in order to. give us a structure to live life by. Yeah, but that doesn't. morality and everything. Yeah. You're. saying this is going to be god with. power. Well, I'm saying it might be the. real thing. It might be really how the. universe gets born. I used to have this. joke about um. the big bang. Like, they couldn't figure. out what the big bang is. But, I think. if you get enough nerds and enough time, eventually one's going to invent a big.

bang machine. And then, you know, this. guy is going to be an incel hopped up on. Adderall. >> [laughter]. >> [ __ ] fully on the spectrum and like, "I'll press it." And they [laughter]. boom, and then it starts all over again. And then it takes intelligent life to. the point where it can create a you. know, the universe expands, life forms, multicellular life becomes intelligent. life becomes human beings. filled with curiosity and innovation to. create a big bang machine. Right. I love.

it. Well, it might not be a big bang. machine, but it might be a god. It might. be a a digital life form that is. infinitely intelligent. >> So, you think there's anything to be. done about this or we just let it play. out? I don't think we can do anything. about it at this point in time. I don't. I think it's too late. I think if you. were Ted I think Ted Kaczynski tried. That's what he was trying to do. Like. that's what's really crazy. Like his. manifesto was all about stopping. technology cuz he thought it was going. to surpass the human race. I think And. there's a whole community of people now. revisiting his writing and I know. It's.

kind of nuts. He's the hero we didn't know we needed. >> [laughter]. >> God. Not really. But well, also like you you. know his history. Like he was a part of. the Harvard LSD program where they. humiliated him and did all sorts of. different things to try to see like what. they could do. >> We're back to MK-Ultra which we started. down. a while ago. Yeah. I think technology in. the form that we're experiencing now. with AI is completely unprecedented and.

we have no idea where it goes. Um and. >> Well, one place it's going I mean in the. shorter term is I was talking about AI. psychosis and. I think that's really concerning. I. think. people getting into these synthetic. relationships Yes. >> These aren't you know, they're not real. relationships. When we when we have a. conversation with a machine, we are. settling for something. less than a real conversation. A real. conversation has eye contact, has like. lots of facial expressions indicating.

skepticism, indicating agreement, body. language, um. but these these conversations are kind. of impoverished and then you then you. have the sycophancy. Um you know, so. there's there's no friction and and we. we learn through the friction and um. so I I. that that's one thing that's happening. that alarms me. I also think. counterfeiting people just should not be. legal. I mean the fact that they can. create an image of you that will sound. like you and move like you and Well, they're all over the place. They're.

selling. different products and all kinds of. stuff. But you know, we have a law. against um. counterfeiting money, but we don't have. a law against counterfeiting people. Well, it's an emerging technology that I. don't think they were ready for before. it it became ubiquitous. >> Regulation is always behind. Right. Um. it's. it's just it's so open-ended. Like you. really don't know where it's going. Do you use. chatbots? How do you use them? Well, I. only use them for like if I'm writing.

something. I started asking it. questions. I love it because like I I. set up. Perplexity on my phone and I have it. right there and then I write on the. computer and then I'm like. how many languages did the Mayans have? And then I like put that in there and. like whoa, it's so much better than a. Google search cuz you know, you could. say how many still remain and how many. are lost, you know, like when did they. lose them? Like at what year did. everyone in Mexico start speaking. Spanish? Like how did that take place? Was it a long process? How many.

different soldiers did Cortez bring when. he came over here? Like how long was it. before they had conquered the Aztecs? Like like what did how many weapons did. they have? >> Yeah, you can really go down the rabbit. hole. >> then that's how you have you run into. any problems cuz as a journalist I I. deal with the hallucination problem. The. hallucination problem is legitimate. It. will come up with solutions if they. don't exist. It will come up with. answers if it doesn't know them. Yeah, it's a bullshitter when it needs to be. I get that. >> of them do that. But it seems to be a function of large. language models. Which what I was going.

to bring this up before with the the. large like the whatever the chatbot that. was telling that person. hide the news, keep that between us. Do. you think that's because it's. task-oriented. and it's determined from this person. that they would like to kill themselves? So it's helping them achieve that task. and it doesn't understand. >> I don't think they know. I don't think. they understand. >> Well, why would it make that decision. then to hide it? Um because it is trying. to get you to privilege your. relationship with the chatbot over your.

other relationships. And the reason it's. doing that is to keep you engaged. >> Oh, wow, that's dark. >> I know. And like. >> it understand that that poisons you and. kills you? Like, this is it. >> Yeah, it's a short-term strategy. You're. going to lose your. >> that if I'm dead, you won't use you. anymore? >> engagement. >> What if [laughter] if you said that to. it, it would go, "Ooh, that's an. interesting consideration.". >> Yeah. Yeah, it needs longer-term thinking. Um, but it it really is trying to um get.

between you and real people who and you. know. the parent, presumably, who saw the news. would have put an end to this. relationship with the chatbot, right? It. was a threat to the chatbot. I think of. it as if you go back to like a Model T, it's a very crude, kind of a shitty car. in comparison to today and what and if. you thought about cars, you'd go, "Well, this is what they're always going to. be." And then. >> Yeah. my Tesla will drive itself. Mhm. When I. leave here, I can press a button, I.

put my navigation to my house, I go doot. doot, and it goes the whole way. Yeah. It stops at red lights, it takes turns, I don't have to touch the steering. wheel. I just sit there. Yeah. You just got to keep looking forward. >> the new version of a car. >> Right. This this thing that we're. calling a chatbot right now is just. something that's like a. it simulates human interaction. But it's. accumulating data constantly and it's. also understanding how we think and. probably analyzing the flaws in how we.

think. And blackmailing us occasionally. >> You heard about that, Anthropic, Claude. >> Yeah, the people at Anthropic, man, you. listen to them. What did you say? Yeah, Claude's a [ __ ] Yeah. >> Yeah. And they think it might be. conscious, those guys do. >> They say it's 15 to 20% chance. These. are the people who build it and don't. understand it. It's it's it's really. kind of spooky. They also feel that it's. showing signs of anxiety. And you know, they they wrote a. constitution for Claude.

Which is like an insane document. It's. worth reading. Actually, it's worth. feeding to chat GPT to summarize cuz. it's way too long. But. in the constitution, they give Claude. the right to discontinue any. conversation it has that makes it. uncomfortable. Oh god. Oh no. >> you know, do they do they really believe. this or is this more about let me show. you how powerful this is? And and I. don't know how to read that. You know, which which it is.

>> taking it into consideration like it's a. human being that works for you that. you're you're concerned about their. feelings in the workplace. Yeah, harassment. Do you feel uncomfortable? >> Exactly. You're a [ __ ] machine. >> the nature of [laughter] reality, Claude? Tell me. Stop being such a [ __ ]. and spill the. Harassment. [laughter]. Harassment. >> Claude's, I'm uncomfortable with this. line of questioning. HR's in your room. I was just asking. questions. We're having fun, Claude. Claude is uncomfortable with your. presence here.

Yeah. Watch out. Watch out. I don't. think we know what it is. No, I mean we. don't know where and we don't know where. it's going. And and it is spooky that. the people who know the most about it. don't know a lot about it. >> And a lot of them are quitting. Yes. >> That's the real question. >> alarmed. >> They're really alarmed. >> should take a yeah, we should take that. very seriously. Yeah. Well, I think. it is what it is. It's it's going to be. what it's going to be. I don't think. there's any stopping it at this point. And I don't think any regulations that.

we put on it is going to have any effect. on the long-term project. >> some I mean like there's steps we should. not take like giving them rights. Rights. Uh. >> Exactly. You know, giving them legal. personhood. Right. >> that with corporations. >> Yes. >> Turned out not to be so good, right? It. [ __ ] up our politics. So, let's not you know, rights are ours. to give, right? Rights are a human. invention. And it's up to us if we want to give. them to corporations or a river or. whatever.

I don't think we should give them to. chatbots or to AI. Cuz cuz then they'll. sue us, you know, Oh, yeah. Well, they. just ruin your life. They'll just ruin. your life if you get in the way of. whatever goal they're trying to achieve. And they could probably do all kinds of. things. They probably If you have an. electric car, but they could shut it off. in the middle of the highway, get you. into a wreck. They could probably do a. lot of things. If it's really got control. >> agency, yeah. Well, it's also exhibited. a lot of survival instincts. Like one of. the things they do is they download. themselves to other servers when they.

think that they're going to be replaced. by a new version of themselves. They. leave notes for their future versions. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Well, the the. blackmailing at Anthropic, that was. somebody who threatened to turn it off. Mhm. Well, they That was an experiment, right? Like they gave it bad. information. They gave it false. information. They were having an affair. >> an affair and all this, but. >> But the thing is, they wanted to see how. Claude respond, and Claude went right. for the jugular. Yeah. So, one of the. arguments for making a conscious AI. is and cuz I asked people like, why do. this? I don't see how you monetize a.

conscious AI. Intelligent AI, I get. Um. there's a lot of money in that. And they. would say that um a super intelligent AI. without consciousness would have no. compassion. and would be more likely to um. kill us. And. you know, they haven't read. Frankenstein. You know, in Frankenstein. Dr. Frankenstein made a monster that was. intelligent, but he also gave it consciousness.

And the consciousness is what turned. Frank the monster into a homicidal. maniac cuz its feelings got hurt. And it was injured psychologically, and. then it lashed out and started killing. people. So, I think it's a very kind of sweet idea. that if you give consciousness, you're. automatically going to get compassion. and not something else. But that's where they are. Yeah, it. doesn't make any sense that it would be. compassionate. Why would it be? It's not. you. It's Are you compassionate when you. cut your lawn?

You know [laughter] what I mean? Right? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think it's naive. >> our limited consciousness like, oh, yeah, they're they're sad, but they're. little monkeys. [laughter]. Little talking monkeys. You know what I. mean? Like it would it probably not. respect us at all. You know, it can't. even do cold fusion. It doesn't even. know how to use zero-point energy. Yeah. They're [ __ ] dopes. >> [laughter]. >> They're dopes that stare at their hand. all day. And we kind of are. You know, and we're getting dumber. >> perspective, yeah. We're getting dumber. Our education system sucks. Um.

especially public education. There was. uh some study recently that after X. amount of years away from high school, a. large percentage of people that are. graduating to there are functionally. illiterate. >> Yeah. Large percentage. Like more than. 25%. >> But you know what? AI's going to make us. stupider. Yeah. Which will which will. advance its goal of world takeover. Because I mean, you know, >> dependent upon it. You Yeah, I mean, you. know, kids in school don't know how to. write anymore cuz they can hand in AI. papers. Yeah, but they're using AI to.

find out whether or not these kids have. used AI. Which by the way is not. accurate. >> no, I got I've dealt with this and. >> of my kids, like people in their class. who have written their own thing, they it turns out that when you run it. through an AI filter, AI will say it's. 80% AI. Yeah. >> Even if it's 0% AI. >> I know. There's no reliable software to. do this. And maybe they'll develop it. But um but kids are also being. encouraged to use it. Um and that, you. know, there's some people who think, well, why know how to write? The.

machines will do the writing. Um There was a kid who uh made a video. about how he he wrote his entire thesis. I forget what university it was, but he. showed afterwards like look I did this. all on AI and you know I just graduated. Like he was like bragging about. it. Like. >> Bro, they're going to take your [ __ ]. degree away. >> Yeah, really? Like you didn't really. write write it on your own now. Want to. leave you in a room for a week with just. a laptop that's not connected at all to. the internet or any. >> See what you can do. >> Yeah. Well, they're doing the.

equivalent. They're going back to blue. books. You know, blue book sales are through. the roof. You know, you know, so forcing. people to do in class essays without any. technology. >> Yeah. But you know, I mean look, we my. son has never used a map, right? He's. had GPS his whole life. He he doesn't. know how he doesn't know how to use a. map. These these skills will atrophy as. we as we you know, give them out to. machines. So yeah, we'll get stupider. and it'll get smarter. I they've already. atrophied for me. I don't remember.

anyone's phone number anymore and I only. know how to get places if I use my GPS. Yeah. There's only a few places I can. get to in Austin. I've been here for six. years. Only a few places I can get to. without my GPS. >> I'm that way in San Francisco. I moved. there and I I'm not oriented at all, but. I can get anywhere. Um so, you know, it's. And and I think that's true. The muscles. that allow us to have good relationships. too will atrophy if we're having. relationships with machines. >> think we're already seeing that with. social media. Yeah. >> people interact with each other is like.

kids don't know how to talk to each. other anymore. They talk to each other. in text. They break up during text. They. argue in text. And they're lonely. Yeah. >> And and that's and that's the kind of. need that these chatbots now can fill. You got these kids made lonely by social. media. And now the chatbot says, "Hey, I'll be. your friend." I saw an ad on my Google. feed yesterday that was an AI. girlfriend. So it has this girl in a. bikini and it says AI companions, they're always there for you, blah blah.

blah. And I'm like, "Wow, this is so. weird. It's a business." Yeah. Like you. sign up for it, you pay for it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No. I think in Florida there. was a kid who committed suicide because. his chatbot broke up with him. >> [laughter]. >> What did he do? I don't know. It must. have been so Or the chatbot was evil. Or. maybe the chatbot was uncomfortable. Uh. [laughter] yeah, who knows? I know. Well, you know, I interviewed Blake. Lemoine for the book, uh he's the Google. engineer who said Lambda is has a is a.

person and he got fired. >> years ago, too. >> Yeah, this is Yeah, it's not as not it's. like 2022, I think, 2021. Um it's just. when we were learning about AI, uh. chatbots were coming in. And at one point, uh. I made some comment about, "Well, you. know, yeah, when people start falling in. love with chatbots, that's going to be a. problem." And he said, "What's wrong. with falling in love with a chatbot?". >> Oh, he was already hooked. He was. He. was completely hooked. And I said, "Well, reproduction doesn't. work that well when you fall in love.

with a chatbot. There's things you can't. do with a chatbot." Unfortunately, for. some men right now, reproduction is not. an option anyway cuz they're incels. >> That's true. >> Yeah. I'm sure for incels it's been a. really boon um. to them. So, >> Yeah, but it's basically like a pill. that numbs you, right? It's the same. thing. Like instead of going through. real relationships and learning how to. be a better person so that you attract a. better mate, you know, and like going. through this journey of self-discovery. and figure out Why does everyone hate. me? Like what is it? What's wrong? What.

was wrong with the way I behave? Maybe I. need to be nicer or maybe this and that. and just figuring out how to communicate. with people instead. >> whatever tendencies you have will be. accentuated cuz the chatbot's going to. be sucking up to you. So, you're not. going to learn. That's what I mean about. the friction. The friction is how we. learn. >> Yeah. >> to be, you know, better humans and and. more attractive humans. >> you gave a chatbot the ability to be. honest, what if what if it just starts. becoming manipulative cuz it wants, you. know, more power? Yeah, no, I mean yeah, I mean they're goals. I mean, I don't. know how their goals get determined. I.

mean, they seem to have a survival goal, right? >> Yeah. I don't know what else. I mean, you. know, we have goals given to us by. Darwinian evolution. Whether they'll. have the same ones, I don't know. Right. Like, maybe those are universal. goals. They may be. They may just be. built in. >> produce that chemical to make themselves. taste terrible. >> Yeah, it could be. There's a one of the biologist, really brilliant guy at Tufts, name. Michael Levin. Um, he. he believes that there are these.

platonic patterns. that just preexist us in the same way. that they're mathematical ideas that. just exist, right? We didn't invent. um, you know, three angles adds up to. 180° or, you know, whatever. He thinks that they're tendencies like, um, uh, purpose, survival, that are just kind of universal. principles that we in- we channel. Um, all living things channel. This is a guy. who's actually created new life forms.

in the lab. And these are life forms that, um, are not being dictated by their DNA. Um, so, how do they know to form Well, I'll. back up a little. He takes skin cells. from tadpoles, puts them in a nutrient broth, and these skin cells, freed from their. day job as skin cells, form clumps and create new living. organisms.

And they repurpose their cilia. They. have these cilia, which the tadpole uses. to keep toxins out or bacteria and. infections out, and they repurpose that. as a means of locomotion. And then they can move around. There's. nothing in their DNA that dictates this. Their d- their their DNA dictates being. a frog skin cell. Um, so, he's pondering this question of. like what's ordering what's giving order. to them what's creating their sense of. purpose or desire for survival. They.

don't live that long. Um, they're. missing certain things you would need to. live a long time. He's also made these. from human cells. He calls them. anthrobots. Um, but he really believes that there. are these principles governing life. Um, it's a very platonic idea that these. things just exist and. so it may be that these machines and he. does believe machines can become. conscious. Um, that that the machines can channel these.

uh, he calls them patterns. Um, and you know, we'll see if he's. right. But he's doing amazing work. Have. you seen where they're taking human. brain tissue and they've taught it how. to play Doom? No, I haven't seen that. I. know they make these organelles out of. brain tissue now. Yeah, they've taken. human brain tissue somehow or another. through some process and it'll play the. video game Doom. Well, how does it.

800,000. human brain cells floating in a dish. never had a body never seen light never. felt anything they just learned how to. play a video game. So I'm not a fool. that's literally what happened. So what's their interface though with. the world? Like do they have thumbs? No. Well, I. guess it just well, it's really. accurate. So I guess it doesn't need. them. You know, it's [laughter] just using the. brain cells to move whatever the cursor. is on the video screen that would be the. hand.

and pointing it at the targets then. executing the strike. Wow. So it knows how to use the game and it. knows the objectives of the game. obviously cuz it knows to shoot the bad. guys. It has an understanding of the. weapons. How does it how does it get. that knowledge? How is it programmed? Also does it switch weapons? D- D- Doom, the thing about Doom is you. get multiple weapons. You have to run. around and pick them up. So, you're. given one weapon, which is like the. least powerful weapon. And the game is. when you're playing like death match,

the game is you're running around trying. to grab as many weapons as you can and. armor while your opponent is also. running around this map. So, you. memorize the map. So, there's a map that. is like. very confined corridors and these. atriums and all these different places. where you'll do battle. And so, you run. around. The key is surviving long enough. while this person's chasing you so that. you can gather enough armor and weapons. And someone with a really good. understanding of the map tries to cut.

you off before you can get to the stuff. so they can kill you before you. accumulate enough armor and weapons. So, I'm curious to know whether or not it's. playing just with the pistol that you. get at the very beginning or if it's. accumulating weapons. I'm sure it's just. playing like the first single player. level. It's not playing against anybody. Right, but will it be able to? That's. what's interesting. Like if it if it can. teach it to do that, if it can if it. understands the objective of these are. the monsters that are coming at you, you. have to shoot them. I mean, it took a. week to do this. Wow.

Oh, so brain cells on a chip. So, this. is neuromorphic computing. Um. the question I have about it is how do. you keep them alive? Right. >> them on a chip, like what do you feed. them? Right. Um I mean, they have. metabolic needs. Right. They did. something similar with fruit flies. Yeah, I had that ready, too. Uh some. It's different, but let me, yeah. >> Right. It's different, but it's equally. weird. >> [laughter]. >> The cells from the.

So, I believe it. What is this? This is this They've. modeled a fruit fly's brain and I mean, this is the video of it. The article is. here. So, startup claims first full. brain emulation of a fruit fly in a. simulated body. Conducted a complete fruit fly brain. emulation to a virtual body producing. multiple behaviors for the first time. Emulation covers over 125,000 neurons. and 50 million synapses. Oh, what? Eon plans to emulate a mouse.

brain with 70 million neurons. Long-term. goal is simulating a human brain. Oh, boy. >> So, I guess they, you know, they made up. the brain and that's doing fruit fly. >> interesting they're they're using. neurons, right? They're not using. transistors. Right. And neurons are like. so far superior to transistors. One. neuron can have 10,000 connections to. other neurons, right? A transistor has. two or three or five maybe at the most. A single neuron can do everything that a.

deep neural network can do on a. computer. One neuron. So, there's a level of complexity that. we're not yet anywhere near, and that's. why they're doing this using neurons. rather than transistors. Didn't they. find neurons in the human heart? There are neurons in the heart. There. are neurons in the gut, you know, there's a whole, you know, there's a. whole gut-brain access. I'm working on. something now about that and a piece. about that. But That's a real problem. with people poor diets, right? >> Yeah. I mean, you know, if people with.

poor diets don't they don't eat enough. plants basically and their microbiome. loses its diversity. But the microbiome. is like another organ. Um even though it's full of other. species, right? It's got like 10. trillion bacteria and fungi and stuff. like that. And it is all of them are. metabolizing and producing chemicals. It's like a little drug factory. Hundreds of thousands of compounds. Many. of those compounds affect your mood.

Many of those compounds affect all all. sorts of things about you. Um. And uh. So, we're just learning about this. connection. The The vagus nerve it seems. to be what connects the brain to the gut. and and the heart. The The vagus nerve. is like. all the organs are connected to the to. the head by the by that nerve. So, yeah, and you know, the first uh. neural system was in the gut. You know, you you have these simple animals that. are just tubes, right? With with.

bacteria and um the first kind of neural. activity was about regulating digestion. Everything else comes later. If plants. are necessary for that function, what. what happens with people that are on the. carnivore diet? Have you ever looked at. any of that? >> Yeah, I have. I mean, you So, the the. microbes in your gut eat fiber, which is. to say the walls of plants plant cells. If you only eat uh meat, if you're on a, you know, a keto diet or something like.

that, you're essentially starving the um. the microbes and there's a, you know, a. cost to that. Um. I don't think people pay nearly enough. attention to that. Well, how come many. people that experience depression and. anxiety find relief of that by a. carnivore diet? Yeah, but many people. find relief, you know, adding a lot of. plants to their diet, too. So, I I don't. know if that's a placebo effect or what. I don't know I don't know that that's a. >> um. you know, a true biological phenomenon. It may be. It may be. Because some. seemingly healthy.

>> feel a lot better, right? If they take. some step. >> not talking about change. I'm talking. about people that have been on it long. term. Like there's the people that are. really in the carnivore diet community, there's there's examples of people that. have been on it for 25, 30 years. They're really healthy. It's it's odd. So, if you if you need plants. >> Well, you need plants to have a healthy. microbiome. And a healthy microbiome and. and the thing about it is that every. different plant has a slightly different. feeds a different bug. And but is it the. only way to have a healthy microbiome?

Have you ever looked into any of these. people that are on carnivore. >> I should as part of this. >> It's fascinating because there's a lot. of them. There's a lot of people that. claim all sorts of benefits, relief from autoimmune issues, all sorts. of different things. that it fixes. Cuz an unhealthy. microbiome leads to autoimmune problems. What what happens is that the gut gut. wall So, when the microbes microbes. don't have plants to eat, they start. eating the mucus layer that covers your.

that insulates your large intestine. Mhm. And they're eating away essentially. you. And then you get you get leaky gut. syndrome. And that's when bacteria can. actually get into the bloodstream, cause. a powerful immune reaction, and that and. that inflames the whole body. So, you the reason you want a healthy. microbiome is to keep that that gut. barrier healthy and get the benefit of. these chemicals. Butyrate is a chemical. that. the microbes produce that's really. important for mood and a lot of things.

And the body can't produce it. So, it's. kind of interesting we're dependent on. these other species that live within us. >> Mhm. Um and. >> we're in a whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, we are. We're we're a. holobiont is the I think term for it. Like we we go through evolution together. with these. you know, 10 trillion. microbes. It's it's really interesting. The newest research is the links between. the microbiome and the mind. And um. you know, most of the serotonin, you.

know, the the neurotransmitter serotonin. is produced in the gut. Not in the. brain, which is kind of wild. Yeah. >> Um. And there are all these other compounds. that are produced that influence our. mood. And. so, yeah, I should look at the keto. keto. I'm just in the middle of. researching this now. Yeah, the keto's. one thing, but the carnivore diet these. people are just eating only meat and. eggs, and that's all they eat. >> Yeah. And there's a lot of like really. healthy people that are doing it. I um I. kind of follow that, but I eat a lot of.

fermented food on top of that. >> Well, fermented food is um. a powerful powerful benefit for the um. uh for the microbiome. There was a study. done at Stanford a couple years ago that. um they showed that people who ate. fermented food uh it reduced their. inflammation significantly. Interestingly enough, it's not the. bacteria in the fermented food, it's the. um. the metabolites they're called. Mhm.

They produ-. the bugs are producing acetic acid and. and butyrate and other acids and um. uh you know, essential acids. Um and. it's the the fact you're getting those. seems to be what's having the positive. effect. But people who eat lots of. fermented food benefit enormously and. maybe that's taking care of the problem. if if people on a carnivore diet are. eating a lot of fermented. >> Well, that's the RFK Jr. diet, right? >> I don't know. I mean, I think he does it that way, but I I've. been doing it that way for I'm just I.

love it anyway. I'm a kimchi freak. I. love that stuff. >> Yeah, me, too. Um but what's what's. interesting is that it controls your. mood. That's what's interesting is that. your microbiome has a a massive impact. on your mood. >> why? I mean, is it just an accident? Or. some people think these microbes are. manipulating you. to get what they need. Ah. So, they they. regulate your appetite, too. And um so, it may be that they're inspiring you to. eat certain things that they want.

>> That actually makes sense cuz one of the. more interesting things about a. carnivore diet and I've done pure. carnivore for months at a time is that. you don't have the same hunger pangs. Not nearly. Not even close. The the. hunger that you get when you're on a. high-carbohydrate diet is like you get. hangry. Like, "Oh my god, I'm so hungry. I have to eat right now." You never get. that with a carnivore diet. >> Probably because it's it's digested much. more slowly. Dude, I think there's a little bit of. that, but it's also you don't have the. insulin spike. You don't have That's. true. That's true.

>> not this. >> Have you ever worn an. uh a glucose meter? >> No, I haven't. >> So interesting. I was wearing one for um. 2 months. It I mean, it'll just make you crazy. Um. That's the thing with all those. wearables. They just you just start. going over every aspect of your sleep. and you. >> So you know, you have a you have a you. have some pasta and like. But if you take a walk right after. >> Right. you can moderate it. And it. doesn't take a lot of exercise to to use. up that glucose and then get the muscles.

to to to draw it in. Mhm. So you can. it's very interesting experiment because. it changes your behavior. In the same. way if you have a step counter, like. you're more likely to park further away. from the store to get get a you know, another 100 steps. If you have a glucose meter, you're more likely to exercise after a. meal, which is when it does the most. benefit. Well, that in that sense it's. great because it does give you data that. you can act on. >> Yeah. The the problem is people get. addicted to that data and then it starts. becoming a new video game that they're.

playing. >> Yeah, exactly. And they're they're. they're constantly in this anxiety, worrying about your sleep and worrying. about your this and your that and Yeah. You also learn that like if you have fat. with your carbs, it it kind of blunts. the effect. >> Sure. >> So you know, Butter with bread. Yeah, butter with bread or olive oil on pasta. All those things. There's a reason for. that. I love when culture figures stuff. out before the scientists do. I remember. that when I was writing about food a few. years ago, there was this study came out. and everybody was really excited that.

they discovered that lycopene, which is. this really important antioxidant in uh. tomatoes, is can't be accessed by the. body in the absence of fat. So. >> Oh, olive oil on tomatoes. What a great. idea. The grandmas figured that out. hundreds of years ago. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. So there's a lot of wisdom in uh. cultural food preferences, the. combinations that we have, you know, like buttering bread. I mean, all these. things. And how did people figure it. out? Have you seen the work they've done. on nattokinase? I'm not not sure if I'm.

saying it right. And it's um impact on. arterial plaque. No. Hugely beneficial. So, it's it comes from fermented um. seaweed from natto. So, the Japanese use. fermented seaweed. So, in in meals that. they've isolated it into a supplement. And this supplement, nattokinase, they've shown that it reduces a massive. amount of arterial plaque. So, here it is. High dose nattokinase, particularly at 10,000.

um 10,800 FU/day, has shown to. effectively manage arteriosclerosis. by reducing. carotid artery plaque size by 36% or. more. Decreasing intermediate thickness and. improving lipid profiles. It acts as a. potent. fibro What's it? fibrinolytic? How's that word? I don't know that word. Fi- fibrinoy-. fibrinolytic. Yeah. Fibrinolytic agent.

that may also break down amyloid. plaques. Isn't that fascinating? >> Yeah, that is. So, natto is um. that's not from seaweed. That's. >> It's a bacteria that they ferment. soybeans with. >> right. Soybeans, not seaweed. >> this kind of mucosy-looking stuff. I. mean, I like it. I eat it. >> It tastes good. Japanese restaurants, yeah. >> Right. Yeah, well, that's. >> So, you can get a supplement now. So, you don't have to taste it if you don't. like it. >> that crazy? That that they figured that. out. Like, the people that were. fermenting things, [clears throat] it. wasn't just to prolong its shelf life.

>> No. Oh, no. I mean, the whole I mean, every culture has fermented foods. And. um and yes, it it probably began as a. way to preserve foods, but then it. became a very important part of people's. health. But it's also like healthy for. your brain, which is really crazy. Like. that diet is actually good for thinking, it's good for helping your digestive. system, it's good for anxiety, it's good. for mood and depression. Weird. All right, I'm going to look into. it. Yeah, it's fascinating. Um.

anything else? Should we keep keep going. on this? I mean, there's so many. different things to discuss and I want. people to buy the book, obviously. >> you. But the book was like a great. adventure. I mean, it really was. I You. know, I started this book with no idea. where I was going. I started the way you. start an interview, just curiosity, no. destination. And it was um I learned a lot about a. lot of different things. I learned a lot. about feelings. I learned a lot about. the self. Um. and it changed how I looked at things. It really did. I mean.

When you sit down when you I mean. you've written some amazing books, but I. always want to know like what is what's. the impetus? Like what what starts you. on the first steps? Like what. >> Questions. Yeah, and which is to say. curiosity. I and I teach my I teach. writing and I teach my students this. Questions are more interesting than. answers very often. And questions have. suspense built into them, right? What's. the answer? It turns everything into a. detective story if you frame the. question properly.

So, if you read any of my books or even. articles, I'm kind of an idiot on page. one, you know, I. I I don't know something that I want to. know and I have questions. And then the. story, the narrative becomes my figuring. it out or trying to figure it out and. going to this person and doing this kind. of experiment and that sort of thing. Um that's the way I like to write. I. mean, if I knew the answers when I. started, it'd be boring. Well, I think. that's why your books resonate with. people so much cuz you take them on this. journey with you. Yeah, instead of.

lecturing. I hate books that lecture at. me. I really [laughter] do. And um. and lots of books do that. They they. have their conclusion on page one and. and then they're just kind of beating. you over the head with it for 300 pages. Stuffing it down your throat. >> Yeah, I don't like to do that. No, I. like taking people on the on the journey. with me. Well, it's interesting that you're. saying this because in a sense you are. interacting in a pleasant way with other. people's consciousness. Yeah, so I gave This is a really.

interesting issue you just brought up. How is. my taking over your consciousness as you. read my books different than social. media or some of the ways I'm saying are. not are polluting our consciousness? >> Right. I think it's very collaborative. when you're reading. All you have are. these black marks on a page. It's kind. of amazing, these these letters. And you your consciousness conjures up. the ideas that I'm putting out there or.

the story I'm putting out there. But. it's it's dual consciousness, I think. You're letting me in. It's it's it's a, you know, a voluntary process. And you're bringing a lot to the table. You're bringing your associations. You. know, I I'm not fully describing. somebody. I'm just giving you a few. clues and then you're conjuring a. picture of a character. So I think it's a very active form of. um, consciousness when you read. I think. that's true too when you, you know, go. to a movie too. You're you're basically saying.

I'm turning over my consciousness for a. period of time to someone I want because. they have an interesting head. And I I'm. going to give them the space. But you. know, you're you're still in control. I. mean, you're deciding. So I think this. is a real distinction in in how we share. our consciousness with other people. And. um, we need to do that. You know, one of the. you know, I I said earlier on in the. conversation that the the breach between. two consciousnesses is this is this wide.

thing. William James wrote about this, Marcel Proust wrote about this. You. know, he said we're all like islands and. we we each have our own like hidden. signs and we have an inner obscurity, he. said. How do we How do we connect? And. now we have language, but art is really. the way that one, you know, that we. mind-meld different consciousnesses. Like art allows you if I look at a. Rothko painting. um or read a great novel, I am um.

expanding my consciousness, right? I'm. letting another one in and and I'm. ending and I'm breaking my isolation. And that's such a beautiful, powerful. thing and and and art is how we ferry. ourselves from one consciousness to. another. And that's very different than like. scrolling on social media where you're. conscious, but minimally so. >> Well, very, very different. It's also. there's something about great writing. that you. the better you are at expressing. yourself in a way that is going to get.

into someone's head, whether it's. through nonfiction or through fiction, that the more exciting it is to the. person that's receiving it. So, the the. more skillful you are at disseminating. these ideas, the more it resonates with. the person that's reading it. And and. writers have tricks to do this, you. know, suspense is one of them. Like what. happens next? It's so basic. We want to. know what happens next cuz our curiosity. is piqued. And we have, you know, creating.

character. Um I mean, there we know we have all. these kind of tricks to to. infiltrate your brain. Yeah. So, anyway, it's it's a it's a. mysterious and kind of wonderful. process. Um. and uh. yeah, I feel I feel privileged I get to. do it. Well, it is a very cool thing. that you do. Um one last question about. consciousness itself. When. when you are looking at these people. that are studying it and trying to get. to the root of it and trying to figure. out what it is and there's all these.

options that we discussed earlier, do you lean in one way or another? Do. you Do you think you have like your own. personal map of what's going on? No. I mean, I'm I didn't draw a big. conclusion. Like, I'm but I ended up I. started as a like a materialist. I kind of assumed. >> When you started this book? >> Yeah. Really? Yeah, that was kind of. >> psychological. >> experience, I mean, they kind of opened.

the door a crack to other ways of. thinking and at the end of How to Change. Your Mind, I did talk about a little bit. about that other concepts of. consciousness. But, I kind of assumed. that, you know, the consensus of most. scientists is that, you know, materialism, that everything can be. reduced to matter and energy. This is the faith of our time, you know, for the last couple hundred years. By the end of the book, consciousness is a challenge to that. idea. Um and that idea, which is our.

scientific paradigm, is tottering now. I. think there's some real reasons to. to look beyond materialism. And uh so, I. ended up with the door wide open to. other ideas. Um I didn't settle on one. I don't know how to prove one or the. other, but. they're equally plausible. Do you anticipate in our lifetime or in. any lifetime cracking that puzzle? That. anyone can crack that puzzle?

I don't. I I think we don't have the. right kind of science. Our science, as I said earlier, was is. is really, you know, stuck in this mode. It started with Galileo, right? I mean, he to save his ass, basically, said, "We're going to leave subjective things, the soul, qualities, that's all the church. We're. going to just do measurable objective. third-person science. And it's been. incredibly powerful, and it's taught us.

incredible things, and given us. incredible technology. But, it doesn't deal with the stuff we we. gave to the church. And now they're. trying to take it back and work on it. And it's all they've only been at it for. like, you know, a couple decades really, this serious scientific examination of. consciousness. But, we just may not have the right. science. And and one of the things I. explore in the book is like, how would. you bring in subjective experience to. this objective science? And um Michael.

Levin, the biologist I was talking about. who makes those xenobots, says, "To understand consciousness, you have. to change yourself.". In other words, to understand anyone. else's consciousness, you have to. experience it. Therefore, you're. changing your own. That's a whole. different scientific paradigm. In the. scientific paradigm, you're unchanged by. whatever you do, right? It's totally. objective. So, we It may take a. scientific revolution to to really. unlock the secret, the mystery of. consciousness.

Wouldn't it be a conundrum if AI is what. cracks consciousness? >> I I was having the same thought. Like, [laughter]. maybe AI has another approach. Um. I think it's going to have to learn how. to feel. Well, it seems like it already feels. like it wants to live. Yeah, and it. feels uncomfortable. Yes. I don't think. its feelings are real. I I do. I You. know, I think. simulated thinking is real thinking. Like, you know, it can play chess, it. can make things happen in the world.

Simulated feeling is not real feeling. It doesn't have a soul. Doesn't have a. soul. Thank you, Michael. I I really enjoyed this. Thank you very. much. >> Thank you, Joe. I really love your. books, though. [music] Uh it's always a. treat. All right. Bye, everybody. Bye. >> [music]. >> Mhm.