Joe Rogan Experience #2465 - Michael Shellenberger

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Good to see you, sir. Thanks for having. me back. >> My pleasure. Always. >> Yeah. >> So much crazy going on in the world. and and even before we scheduled this. like uh more crazy stuff has happened. The war broke out, all kinds of things. >> Yeah. How are you uh how are you feeling. about the President Trump?

>> That's a open-ended question. [laughter]. Um. >> do you text with him and talk to him? >> Occasionally. Yeah, occasionally he'll. send me a text. I I get these like truth. social posts of uh you know, things that. he's saying, but this whole. Iran thing, man. Like, did you. see this coming? >> No, definitely. I don't know. I mean, who did? Uh I mean, when did he even. decide? you know, their national. security strategy they put out in. November basically just said we've.

degraded their capacity. It's a win. There was no sense in which there would. be additional action. I think it ushers in a new paradigm. completely like the older post-war era. is just over. Mark Carney, the prime. minister of Canada, articulated that the. World Economic Forum probably better. than the Trump administration did, saying very clearly that older. rules-based order is gone. You saw AOC. try to sort of articulate it, but she. sort of fell apart at the Munich. Security Conference in in February. So, this is an administration that is I.

mean, and I don't even think they're. thinking I wrote a piece and I decided. not to publish it because I was sort of. like decapitation doesn't really work. for regime change, but it's not clear. that they're really out for regime. change or they're just asserting power, shaking up things. I mean, some of it's. art of the deal, changing the person. that we're negotiating with, that's. Venezuela and Iran. Is it really going. to change those regimes? I don't I don't. think most people don't think so. But. that I'm not sure that that's what. they're going for. They're just going. for an assertion of American power in.

service of American interests. And then. what happens in Iran, what happens in. Venezuela, I don't think they care that. much about. At least they're not. behaving as though they do. >> Well, the none neither thing made any. sense to me. the Venezuela thing. I. mean, look, they wanted him out forever, and he definitely stole the election to. get in there in the first place, and he. was a dictator, but at least that one. was at least clean. They go in, kidnap. him, get him out. This one's nuts. Like,

and what's happening in Tel Aviv, it's. it's hard to know what's real and what's. not because there's a lot of uh fake. video going around and a lot of weird. posts on X. So, it's, you know, when I. do peek in, it's hard to know. And you. have to listen to Grock and then Grock's. dismantling a lot of the uh fake videos. >> Mhm. What What are the fake videos that. you're thinking? >> This is like fake videos of, you know, like an insane amount of bombs dropping. down on the city, but it seems like. there's a massive amount of destruction.

in Tel Aviv. >> Yeah. I haven't checked in lately, but. I'm assuming. Was that just today or. >> yesterday? Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I mean, I think the president is, there's been some dis, you know, Rubio. said something about how, oh, we had to. act because we knew that Israel was. going to act anyway, and I think people. interpreted, and then Netanyahu was in. the White House a lot. This, I think. this president has shown, whether you. like him or not, you know, and there's. certainly things that I'm unhappy about. and have criticized, but I think Trump. is in charge like he's making these.

decisions. There's nobody behind him. There's nobody nobody pulling for all of. that you know the Russians or whoever. some you know these now the Israelis you. know it's just he's clearly I mean Elon. gave him you know $250 million and he. still you he didn't give him even the. electric car credit you know like like. Trump is in charge you know like I think. that's one of the big lessons from this. and I don't think that I think that. means that there's not a lot of like. second order thinking here like oh. what's the move after that he doesn't. know he's just acting that's what's so.

wild about it is that this older foreign. policy establishment which you know was. like let the experts decide what the. right foreign polic you know all these. think tanks and that's just gone now. it's just irrelevant in this presidency. and I don't think it'll come back like. if you get a Gavin Newsome president AOC. I don't. >> president who. >> I don't think yeah for a minute before. before Munich but I don't think it's. going to come back and I think that. that's what the prime minister of Canada. realized I think that's what the. Europeans are starting to realize is. that this is a completely different. world that we live in than the one we. lived in just a couple of years ago,

>> which just doesn't make any sense to me. unless we're acting on someone else's. interest, like particularly Israel's. interests. It does just didn't make any. sense to me. Like if they had supposedly. dismantled their chances of making a. nuclear bomb, whether or not that's true. or I mean, it's so hard to know. He was. unsatisfied and just like he was like, I'm not getting anywhere in these. negotiations. and I'm going to replace the person I'm. negotiating with. It's it's just, you. know, sh turn over the table, like.

change things up. you're not getting. anywhere. And you could crit, you could. say he was too impatient. He their view. was the Democrats were too patient with. Iran. They kept trying with Iran. Iran, they weren't giving them what they. wanted. I'm not defending it. I'm just. saying I think that's what explains it. They they haven't done a very good job. explaining it because I think that it. just sounds to some extent like what it. is, which is that it's they're acting. without they're sort of like, well, does. it result in regime change in Iran? We. don't know. They might say that we want. that or whatever, but that's not.

ultimately they're not they're not. acting on the basis of achieving regime. change. >> Well, it just seems so insane based on. what he ran on. I mean, this is why a. lot of people feel betrayed, right? He. ran on no more wars and these stupid. senseless wars and then we have one that. we can't even really clearly define why. we did it. >> Well, but he said he's against endless. wars. >> Well, endless wars. Listen, man. They're. all endless. Do you ever hear Rumsfeld. talk about Iraq when it first happened? >> Tell me. >> They they were talking about like six.

weeks. Six weeks. >> Oh, yeah. >> Six weeks. >> Yeah. But they put that was ground force. and I know that they've not ruled that. out. For me, that would be. >> They have They have not. My. understanding is that they have not. Yeah. >> I thought you said and now have no. >> um. >> but they don't seem eager to go into I. mean my I I criticized the Venezuela. action because I sort of was like, how. are you possibly going to run Venezuela? And then I think a little bit more time. passed I was like, "Oh, they're not. they're not going to try to run. Venezuela." Like that's not what this. is. Um they wanted.

>> they just wanted to take over the oil. >> Yeah. And and even there I mean the oil. it's not significant at any global. level. I don't it's hard I don't even. think it's really about the oil. I don't. think it's about the oil. I don't think. it's about the oil in Iran either. >> Well the oil reserves are significant. It's just the the type of oil and how to. extract it is extremely difficult. >> It's the worst Joe. It's in the am like. the big the big abundant reserves are in. the Amazon. So you're talking about what. a nightmare. It's super far away. It's. terrible. You had a gorilla conflict. If. you had a gorilla conflict break out.

around those oil facilities, I mean it's. already more expensive because you have. to heat up that particular type of it's, you know, it's really heavy oils. Have. to heat it up to get it out of the. ground. Then you have to heat it to. transport. It's a total nightmare. I. just I mean and as a conservationist I. would say that would be the last place. I'd want to see us getting oil from. There's a lot of other places that have. have oil. we shouldn't be going into the. Amazon. >> So, what if anything makes sense to you. about this attack in Iran? >> I don't know that I'm I'm not I'm not.

sure what I think of it. I mean, I don't. I don't like it. I don't like I mean, the whole older system was that you had. this international. US security council would have to agree. The Congress would have to agree. That's. all gone now. I mean, it's just a. totally different. This guy is just. acting, you know, he says he's not. getting where they want to get in the. negotiations with the Iranians. So, he. says, "We have some leverage over you. and we're going to use it.". >> Similar. >> But clearly, Israel wanted this. >> Israel has its own motivations, I think. Yeah. >> But I don't think I think it's not quite.

accurate to say that. I just don't think. I think all the evidence shows that. Trump is his own man and he is the. president and like literally he couldn't. even give back he couldn't even give. Elon the battery subsidy that he wanted. You know what I mean? It's like I get. that. >> I've never seen a pol I mean I've never. seen a politician act that. independently. That's I mean a a. president act that independently. So I'm. skeptical of. >> I mean I think that I think that Rubio. was sort of like well they were going to. attack and so we had to you know there's. some of that but I just think Trump is.

doing what he wants to do and we should. >> You really think it's that simple? Trump's doing what he wants to do and. that's it. >> You don't think people are influencing. him cuz there's a lot of war hawks. around him right? There's a lot of. people that want for a long time. >> I mean, Netanyahu is in there, but then. Tucker was in there a bunch, >> but do you think it Tucker has the kind. of influence that Netanyahu has? >> Well, I mean, I guess if you just base. it on the outcome, then the answer is. no. >> No. [laughter]. >> Um, but that's what I'm saying. I just. think I think he listened to everybody, but I just don't think it's Russians.

aren't behind him. Israelis, I mean, Trump is, look what he's been through. I. mean, he's, you know, he's got where he. is. There's no way he's going to They. don't have anything on him. That's my. view. I don't think they have anything. on them. How do they behave that way? >> Well, they could, but I'm not We don't. see any evidence for it. >> Well, you wouldn't see any evidence. until it broke out until they released. it. >> Yeah. And and well, we'll get I'm sure. we'll get into Epstein, but I mean, I. just think when you don't have evidence. of something, then you can't assume that it's. happening. Um I haven't seen any ev I've. seen evidence that Trump is fully. independent with particularly this case.

of Elon. Surprised me. I would have. thought at a minimum you'd give your. largest campaign contributor the one. thing he wants. Um I mean Doge was. something he wanted too, but and then I. look at Iran and I kind of go, you know, Trump has always won. I mean, Trump has. been critic He said he doesn't want Iran. to have a nuclear weapon for a really. long time. I I don't know the exact. date, but certainly. >> Well, no one wants Iran to have a. nuclear weapon other than Iran, right? >> Yeah. Um I think that the he was he also. put it this way. He was also critical of. the Democrats approach which was the.

sort of the mainstream IAEA approved. approach because of of course under. international law Iran has the right to. a nuclear to nuclear energy and to. nuclear facilities including nuclear re. uh nuclear u the centrifuges and the. enrichment. Iran has a right to all that. under international law and so and Trump. doesn't agree with that and he's not. going to let international law get in. his way. >> So when you say he has a right to it. you're talking just about nuclear power. >> Yeah. Right. >> Right. But that includes enrichment. So, you know,

>> to a certain point, right? But they've. already surpassed that point. Right. >> Yeah. And I I believe I you know, if I'm. wrong, I'll correct it on X, but uh I. don't think it specifies the level of. enrichment is part of the issue. And. then you've got these centrifuges and so. it's all been a cat-and- mouse game. I. personally do not doubt for a minute. that Iran wants nuclear weapons and. that's what's been going on. I think. most people think that, but the Obama. administration was like, we can do, you. know, we can lift sanctions in exchange. for controlling their nuclear program. Trump has not for a very long time. agreed with that approach. I think he. was criticizing it for many years before.

2016 before he decided to run, but um. definitely for the last 10 years. >> Did you um read the thing today that. came out that they're they're discussing. some sort of a leaked transmission that. seems to be an activation of terror. cells. >> Iranians have. >> Yeah. >> I'm not No, but I'm not surprised, right? >> Sounds bad. Yeah, >> that's one of the things that obviously. that was the first thing I thought of. was like, "Oh, great. Are we going to. get a bunch of. Iranian suicide bombers in the United.

States now?" It's obviously. >> I don't know if it's going to be suicide. bombers, but I would imagine it would be. something a little bit more destructive. than that. >> Could be. Um I don't know what they can. get in. I mean, there's Sean Ryan's been. having folks on that say that. >> yeah, >> people are getting in with with heavy. artillery. I just don't know the status. of it. Um. >> well the real problem is. >> they can do for four years the border. was wide open. >> Oh yeah. >> and definitely some people from the. Middle East got through. >> and we have no idea like what is wait I.

mean I mean I'm sure there are some. intelligence agencies that have an. understanding of what the threat is. I hope so. I mean, I think we see that. these terrorists are able to do an. incredible amount of damage with pretty. simple rifles, you know, and sometimes. uh was it the French uh the the club um. that particular terrorist action, there. were other people that were using bombs. that like only killed one or two people, but the guys with the machine guns were. able to gun down like dozens of people. So certainly it's ter that's scary. I. think none of us want I think that's.

where a lot of Americans when it. happened the reason so many people were. against it believe a majority is against. it is because you're like great what we. you know first of all is it going to be. another endless war and second of all. are we going to get a bunch of terrorist. um actions here I think if we did I. don't think support for the war goes up. I think it goes down. >> oh for sure yeah I mean it's just such a. I mean the whole. the whole situation internationally has. been so tense already with what's going.

on in Gaza, with what's going on in. Ukraine. It's like and to add this to. the pile, it's like I mean it genuinely. feels like there's a real possibility. that we might be entering World War II. >> How would that what would that look. like? >> I don't know. I Well, I never expected. Iran to start attacking, you know, they. they launched bombs into UAE, Dubai. I. mean, where else? There's. >> I think they expected that though,

right? I mean, it makes Iran look. >> Iran looks pretty isolated. I mean, I. will say, you know, I was totally. obviously maybe not obviously, but very. much on the left and was opposed to all. the stuff Reagan was doing. I remember. even even in the 80s, >> but it's like he really did I I'm not. going to say he was the major the only. reason. There was obviously a bunch of. weakening within, but I mean, he really. did push back against communism. He. challenged the entire foreign policy. establishment on the basic view of just. um you know of just of just kind of. keeping it you know keeping keeping the.

communists where they were and instead. Reagan really pushed back against it and. said it got to be regime change. It sort. of almost had a moral certainly there's. a defense buildup but a moral argument. and I think it had a big impact um and. to bring down communism. So I'm you know. the Iranian it's it's I'm I'm obviously. have very mixed feelings about it. the. Iranian regime is just so evil and so. awful that you know you're you're you're. every time you see videos of people. taking these courageous actions you're. like somebody bring that regime down. On. the other hand that country is pretty.

the f the people of that country were. pretty radical and the sha in 1979 I. just spent last night watching all the. old old 60 minutes from the 70s. They're. amazing. But the the sha was really. modernizing the country. There was a lot. of wealth coming in. There was a lot of. more inequality. There was also a lot. more state repression uh from his. intelligence services. Uh but the. country was you know full of radical. Muslims who wanted you know that when. all that instability they wanted to. revert back to you know a radical. Islamist regime and that's still now. I've seen other estimates to say that. you know the current regime is.

incredibly unpopular in Iran. But, you. know, how that works out, it's really. hard to say. But there is something I I. caution my own I I talk back to my own. anti-interventionist instincts when I. think about Reagan just being like, you. know, we're not going to do just. containment strategy anymore. We're. actually going to talk back to communism. because people deserve to be free. And. uh now is everything better for, you. know, is everything fine in Russia? Maybe not. But I mean, communism was. just awful. you know, just a totally. soulkilling, you know, crushing, you know, a giant.

lie. I mean, it's awful totalitarianism. So, I think we have to kind of keep that. in mind. And especially when you're in a. moment of just such incredible chaos. like we're in now. I told my students, I'm like, you get to live through one of. the most interesting moments in history, certainly in the last 80 years, because. the entire paradigm where the United. States had these allies and everything's. going to go through the security council. and we're going to try to make it. through the UN and there's got to get. agreements and all this stuff, that's. just gone. I mean, it's just it's gone. to the part where they don't even where.

you're kind of like, how are you what's. going to happen inside Iran? They're. like, that's not our concern. We hope. that there's an overthrow of the. government, but they're they're not. we're not like going to necessarily. commit to that. Well, they're also. calling on the people to rise up, which. is, you know, I mean, look, look at what. they did with the protesters. I mean, they killed thousands of people. And. look at Iran and Venezuela. They don't. have internal the opposition is not. united. There's not a united opposition. with a united figure. I mean, remember, it was so interesting watching 79 when.

these protests against the sha were. going on there. The the left and the. Islamicists made an alliance in Iran. Something I'm very it's something really. interesting topic. I only starting to. explore right now. But they made an. allian so they'd be holding up, you. know, they'd be holding up the. Ayatollani pictures in the street. Like. they had their guy and the left was. like, "Look, we're just going to, you. know, go with this guy." I think he was. making promises to the left around. allowing, you know, more, you know, liberalism. And then they came in and. just consolidated into this really. hardline Islamicist regime. But they had.

a guy. We don't they don't, you know, we. don't have a guy in in Venezuela. We. don't have a guy in Iran. I don't know. if there's anybody in Cuba really. you. know, the in the older regime under like. the Biden, the open society people, the. open society establishment, they had. somebody for Venezuela, this Mashado. woman, but Trump gets up there and he. just goes, "Yeah, she doesn't have. enough support, so she's not with us. Gone." You know, like they recognize. that they don't have there's nobody with. a opposition, you know, street cred that. can come into power. So, I think they. and they know that. They're not like.

unaware of that. So, I think some of the. like, oh, they should rise up and. whatever. It's a little half-hearted. I. don't know that they believe that that's. going to happen. They're certainly not. they don't seem to be offering them, you. know, material support, >> right? So, it's just a symbolic gesture. to talk about it. >> Sounds like it. And I mean I And this. kind of the this beautiful collapse of. communism which occurred so peacefully. with the Berlin wall. The guard. eventually just sort of like it's just. in the vibes and the guards are just. like, "Yeah, we're not guarding this. wall anymore." And it's just [laughter].

over, you know, and it was just over and. it was like it was like kind of like a. moral collapse. Not so sure that they're. going to get that in Iran. Doesn't seem. like it. >> It seems like they've been preparing for. this for a long time. >> The Iranians. >> Yeah, >> they're dug in now. It's the son and. he's just part of the he represents the. uh the I was the IGRC, the um the the. security forces. I mean, it's their guy. It's what you would do. It's rally. around the flag. It's classic what. happens. And so, but you know, never you. never know. I mean, these guys then.

might just negotiate more what the Trump. administration wants. I think the Trump. administration is like, "We'll just keep. killing your leaders until we get. somebody in there that will make a deal. with us." I think that's I think that's. how Trump thinks about it. >> Really? >> That's my That's my best guess. >> You're smiling. Do you think this. >> It's funny because it's funny because. it's it's so Joe, it's just like you. just look at all the think tanks and all. the white papers and the State. Department and the planning and whatever. and it's just like Trump's just he's. going to listen to Tucker. He's going to.

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details. Is that good? >> I don't know if it's good. I mean, um I. just we don't know yet. I mean, I think. part of it is is it going to work? Part. of you go, is it moral? And you're like, well, but does it does it work to make. have better outcomes? I don't know. We're in a realm of absolute chaos right. now. >> We're also in a realm where AI is going. to be powering autonomous weapons if not. already. >> I mean, that I mean, that is going on. That is so interesting. this thing with. Anthropic and the DoD and what's. happening there. That is really.

interesting. >> So, initially anthropic was hesitant to. allow them to use autonomous weapons, right? >> I don't know the status of it, but you. saw the open AI the head of open AI. autonomous uh it was a she was the head. of autonomous weapons I think. I'm not. don't don't get me exactly right, but. she just quit like a couple of days ago. It was on X and it was just like a huge. story. So, you have a bunch of you have. you have you have a a rift in between. I. mean now I'm now I think um you know Sam. and Elon are both on board and want to.

keep working with the DoD, but it looks. like Anthropic broke and you know and. then and then Hexath was like well but. then we're going to punish you for this. Uh that's very consistent with a kind of. nationalist vision which is that which. the Trump administration has which is. that your security strategy your. economic strategy your border strategy. it's all a sing your industrial strategy. it's all a single thing your trade. strategy it's all a single thing and I. think for Trump it's just you're either. asserting power and dem and using your.

leverage and demanding more or you're. engaged in managed decline you're just. giving up you know and I part of me I'm. of mixed minds on it because on one hand. I'm with the kind of I kind of go let's. invest at home we have all the you know. we have skid road to clean up you know. uh we should be focused on that not on. trying to do regime change or bombing. other countries or creating other. problems on the other hand I think. there's something right about defending. the west I mean defending western. civilization you know uh defending our.

our institutions our norms our liberal. values and and nobody's done that and we. just had a guy in power that was that. opened our borders. that kind of gave a blank check to. Ukraine. It seems like at a minimum with. Trump, you have somebody that is taking. responsibility in ways where Biden would. be like, well, we're going to do what, you know, we're going to work with our. allies. And it was just all kind of like. it was like it was all kind of going to. be decided in this in this, you know, what Curtis Yarvin famously calls the. cathedral, you know, just the the the.

single thing of the media and the think. tanks and the academics and and Trump. was like, it's not working. and the. working class uh of this country elected. me to to show strength and to demand a. better return on our investment in terms. of protecting our allies for our people. So that part of it I think is really. overdue and really necessary an. assertion of why the west is special, why we need to defend the west. um is. bombing Iran and replacing the you know. the command with his son is Mashad you.

know is what's happening in Venezuela is. that the right approach to that I don't. know but I think we were the system was. was failing I mean the open society. system which is supposed to be this. liberal you know uh you know system of. tolerance that became intolerant it. became totalitarian it created. censorship industrial complex they they. weaponized the intelligence communities. we you know started getting ourselves. into conflicts that we that was not. clear why we were in including. Venezuela, I mean, sorry, including um. Ukraine. I mean, with Ukraine, it's like. that war only continues because we.

continue to to arm it. Like, if we. stopped, if we just were like, let's. just have the just, you know, just cut a. deal wherever the border is right now. You're just like, that's where it's. going to stop, then you can I mean, I. don't know. I'm not sure what's. preventing that from Trump. I think he's. annoyed with Putin. But yeah, I mean, my. view is like I don't see an interest in. that war um continuing. I don't know how. it's in the interest of the working of. working-class Americans or Americans. And I have the same questions about Iran. and Venezuela and Cuba, but I think that.

is a totally different paradigm than the. one that we had from 1945 to 2024. >> Well, the idea of tolerance for, you. know, with the last administration that. seems just to be a narrative. It it. seemed to be a political strategy of. keeping the borders open to increase. populations in blue states, raise the. census, get more congressional seats, and then a path to citizenship where. you'd have permanent voters. That's what. it seems like. And then there's also a. ton of Medicaid fraud that's wrapped up.

in that that we're now seeing. >> Yeah, I think that's part of it. I mean, there the Times did a piece on why Biden. left the borders open and it was. >> What was there? It was a funny piece. like there was this it was you know part. of it he's so out of it right like there. were just it was not clear like there. wasn't clear there was like a meeting. where he was like yeah we're going to. just do this thing they kind of. concluded that I think Cecilia Moz who's. one of the um more moderate advocates. and was in the administration I think. she said something like Biden just.

wanted to give the left just felt like. he wanted to give the left what they. wanted and that's what you know the. Soros think tanks and the you know the. very progressive immigration groups have. been you know have been advocating. He. did the same thing on climate. So, it. makes sense. I know Elon talks a lot. about how, oh, it's about importing. voters and whatnot. Maybe um but it's. not even clear that that's a good that's. a strategy that's going to work. You. know, why not? >> Well, because first of all, we don't. know that Latinos like why are like why. do we assume Latinos are all going to, you know, vote for Democrats? Well, if.

you've got them all on Medicaid and. Social Security, the numbers there are it's it's actually. more complic Europe is definitely the. case that you have higher rates of crime. and higher rates of social services. among migrants. Here are Latino migrants. traditionally, you know, be, you know, really thrive. You know, they do much. better than than the mostly Muslim. immigrants in Europe. Um, so I mean, I'm. skeptical. I mean, the other thing I the. other statistic that I learned uh from.

David Shore, who's like the one of the. top Democrat pollsters, when he was. talking to Ezra Klein after the 2024. elections, he was like, if all eligible. voters had voted, Trump would have won. by three percentage points rather than. 1.5. So, it's also So, I always think. it's kind of funny because the. Republicans are always like trying to. make it harder for people to vote, but. under that calculation anyway, and maybe. it's just Trump, maybe other Republicans. won't go. >> When you say harder for people to vote, what do you mean? You mean mail in. voting? Yeah, just the whole effort to. >> but the problem is mailin voting has.

always been a vector for fraud. >> That's it. Maybe I don't know how much. of it there is. Um I've seen different. things on it. >> goes back like decades people have been. talking about mail and voting just being. too open to fraud. >> Well, but then the but maybe but then. the question is does it really benefit? I mean, in the words, if David Shaw is. right, if everybody who could vote had. voted, Trump would have won like. basically by twice the margin. >> Well, I don't know if that's necessarily. true, but when I see laws like what.

California has where you're not allowed. to show ID, there's only I mean, I've. tried tried to find some sort of. charitable way where that would make. sense other than you want to open the. door for fraud. There's nothing. >> this this narrative that they say oh. poor people don't have like see Kla. Harris they don't believe that they. don't have a Xerox machine like. >> no but you ever see the thing I think it. was a guy I don't know if he did it for. free press a guy was going around. interviewing um well first he. interviewed liberals at like I think UC. Berkeley and he was like you know do you.

think that you should have to have an ID. to vote and they were like no because. black people don't have IDs and like. >> that's just because they're hearing that. on. >> NP I know of course but they believe. that I mean but then I don't know if you. saw that it's an incredible video cuz. then he goes to like I think he goes to. Harlem or he goes to like a black. neighborhood in New York and he was just. ask asking black people he's like do you. have an ID on you and it was like. everybody was like yeah like what's the. matter with you? >> Well it's also we just got done with. three years of you need an ID to prove. that you have been vaccinated. >> so you need to be able to have that to.

go to work to get on a plane to eat at a. restaurant. >> It didn't make any sense. It was so. immediately contradicting what had just. gone down you know months earlier. It's. just stupid. Well, yeah, that was about. that was because the left wanted to. control people's behavior. >> Um, and on voting, they the old I I know. because I when I talk to my progressive. friends about it, what you know, and. family and friends, it's it's very much. like, no, we can't put barriers on the. way of voting because that's what they. did during Jim Crow. I mean, that's. where it goes back to. >> ID is not a barrier. It's just an.

insurance that you're a citizen while. you're voting. >> And they say there's really not much. They say there's very little fraud. I'm. just telling you what they say. I'm not. saying I agree. Who is they though? >> Progressives. Progressives. Yeah. Do you. believe that? That's horseshit. That's a. horseshit. >> I think they believe it. I'll put it. that way. Yes, I do. >> I think they just say it because that's. the thing that everybody says. I think. it's a group think thing. I mean, I. think if you sit down with any rational. person and no one's watching, you know, there's no cameras on them and you ask. them, "Does that make any sense?" No one. would say it makes any sense. Most.

people in this country who are citizens. have some form of ID or can get some. form of ID. And it's entirely reasonable. to ask people to prove that you are who. you are if you're voting for the. president of the United States. That. seems pretty reasonable. >> I'm I I I find it totally reasonable and. I support it. I'm just saying that if. you make it I'm just saying you may the. Republicans may it may result in. outcomes that are not the predictable. ones that they think they'll get just. because Trump at least and Trump's maybe. you know a special case but I mean he.

was able to turn out reluctant voters. like he motivated people to vote. >> because people were fed up with what had. gone on in the last four years and I. think that open border was the biggest. one. >> I mean it was one of the biggest ones. cuz people just felt hopeless like this. is crazy like what you're doing you're. letting in what's equivalent at least uh. if you're if you're just being. charitable it's 10 million people. >> it was it was huge. >> if you're just being conservative it's. 10 times Austin you let 10 Austinans in.

in four years of people who you have no. idea who they are. >> yeah and and Americans were on board. with closing the borders and then when. it came time to actually asking all the. getting those folks to leave that came. in all the support disappeared right I. mean. >> well it's not asking them to leave. It's. showing up at Home Depot and just. rounding people up and raiding places. and going to restaurants and pulling. people out of their houses. And I think. people got very uncomfortable with the. idea of militarized police wearing masks. on the street. Yeah.

>> And then when you find out that these. guys have only been trained for seven. weeks and there they get a $50,000. signing bonus. >> and then you find out that a giant. percentage of them are Latino, which is. kind of crazy. You know, like the two. guys who shot that guy in Minnesota, they're both Latino. >> and Yeah. I mean, that's what you get. when you have completely untrained, unprepared people. >> The whole Minnesota thing with Alex Prey. is a complete cluster I still not. have have not seen verification of. whether or not the the the narrative.

that makes sense is true, but the. narrative that makes sense was that. there was an accidental discharge of his. gun as they were pulling it away from. him. And then that led to them thinking. that maybe he still had the gun on him. cuz you're in the chaos of arresting. someone. Someone says he has a gun, a. gun goes off, and then they shoot the. guy. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> I bet when you go I bet when they do the. proper evaluation of it, they're going. to find multiple mistakes. >> I'm sure. >> by the law enforcement. >> that and then there was the thing with.

the woman who got shot where you have a. guy who had almost been run over just a. couple of weeks before and been dragged. in his car. The guy who shot her had. been dragged by another vehicle. >> Oh, I didn't see that. >> I think he got dragged like 300 ft, too. Something crazy. >> So, when a car is coming at him, you. could imagine this guy's got some PTSD. from that. And. >> he should not have been He should not. have been. >> No. >> And also, Alex, >> he certainly shouldn't have said that. like after he shoots her. in the face, too. That's crazy, too.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean the reaction just the. heartlessness of the reaction to the. killings was terrible, including by the. administration. That's probably why. Christine Gnome ended up having to go. >> But then on the other side, these. protests are organized. They're. organized and they're paid for, which is. also something to be take that people. need to understand. These are not. organic protests. It's not organic that. it just happened to be taking place in. the very same place where you found. hundreds of millions of dollars in. fraud. Right? This is like one of the. clearest, most obvious distractions.

you've ever seen like in in the public. arena like where you have these people. who are being paid to protest. They they. give them money to go out there and. protest. They give them signs. They're. organizing it. They go signal groups. They're uh doxing all these different. ICE workers. They find out what their. license plates numbers are. They find. out where they're staying. They go to. their hotel. The cops, the local cops. are being told to stand down. So you've. got it like this this convergence of all.

these factors that lead to chaos. And. you know Mike Benz was talking about it. and he was essentially saying it's a. mathematical thing and that if you have. these things play out you're going to. have a certain amount. It was Mike Benz. right who was saying that there was a. certain amount of people that are you're. going to have incidences. You're just. playing it out over the numbers. Certain. amount of these protests you have. organized protests. You have untrained. ICE agents. You have a lot of chaos. You. have support for people screaming in the.

streets. Someone gets shot. Boom. And. then it moves the needle. And this is. calculated. They want this to happen. They want it to happen this way because. then this kills all the support for. people that, you know, we're kind of on. the fence whether or not I should be. deporting all illegals. Excuse me. they should, [clears throat]. excuse me, whether they should just go. after violent criminals and and then. there's these weird narratives like, oh,

only 14% are violent criminals that have. been arrested. But 60% are criminals. 60% of the people plus were criminals. And like what what by what definition. violent criminals? Like what do you like. what do you is it okay if they just come. in here and rip people off? Like, are. you fine with that? It's just like the. violent ones we need to get rid of. Like, >> I think they didn't. Yeah, they did. They did a fairly poor job of it. Like, why were they focused on on Minneapolis?

I think most people don't understand how. radical the left in Minneapolis is. because you think it's a Midwestern. place, but it's actually got a long. radical left tradition. >> Yeah. >> Um, and as you were saying, I mean, Alex. Prey, he should have been arrested. several days before when he had a gun on. him and got into an altercation with. police. They should have arrested him. then and then they could have the judge. could have done a lot of different. things but they could have taken away. his gun. They could have put a. restraining order on him so that next. time he showed up and people would know. to look for him then he would have been. you know kept out of the area. Do you. know the story about the gun that he was.

carrying? >> No. >> Okay. So he's carrying a gun called a. Sig P320 which is notorious for. accidental discharges. >> Not not I mean there's lawsuits all over. the place. There's videos of cops in. precincts bending over to pick something. up and the gun goes off in his holster. There's a ton of these. So, I don't know. if this is completely accurate because. this is obviously the fog of chaos of. these type of altercations and. situations, but there's a video that. many people have reviewed and it's their.

conclusion that if you watch the video. when one of the ICE officers removes his. gun, even though he does not have his. finger on the trigger, has his hand on. the gun and his fingers on the slide, as. he's moving off, it appears the gun goes. off. Now, they've zoomed in on it and. shown that it does look like the gun's. going off, and it does correspond with. the sound of a gunshot. It's It's just. hard to know. >> You hear a gunshot in the video. >> Yes, but I don't know if it's.

legitimate. It's hard to know. But but. if it was any other gun, like say it was. a Glock, I would say that doesn't make. any sense. His finger's not on the. trigger. It's not going to go off. But. that gun is notorious for going off. There's a guy online that he he shows a. video where he takes the gun and he. manipulates the slide and it goes off. >> and it goes off without nothing touching. the trigger. No one no one's pulling on. it. It's just if you have the other. problem is people alter guns. Okay. So,

the issue with the Sig was. they they had I believe up to 2017, they. had a lighter trigger and this lighter. trigger if the gun was dropped or if. something happened to it, it was going. off. And they determined it's the gun. does not have an internal safety like. some other guns do. It's I I'm not an. expert, so I don't know exactly what the. trigger mechanism is, but my. understanding is that the trigger. mechanism is different than their other. guns. Like they have another gun that's.

notoriously reliable. It's a Sig P365. You could drop that gun. It's not going. to go off. It's not known for accidental. discharge, but the 320 is known. And. there's tons of videos of people. demonstrating this online. There's a. video where they're on a range and a gun. goes off in a guy's holster. And the. range instructor says, "What the. just happened?" And this guy, he points. to this, you know, the the gun that went. off and he said, "Is that a Sig?". >> And he goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Get that.

thing off the range." So, it's. that notorious, this one particular. model. And it just happened to be the. one particular model that Alex Prey was. carrying, which is crazy. >> Well, his behavior was really reckless. I I It's really hard for people to hold. two ideas in their mind at the same. time. Like, Ice. >> messed that up. I think clearly. >> and Alex Prey, I mean, we see the. earlier video, you know, where he kicks. out the tail light of the ICE vehicle, right? >> And he's I mean, he's got a gun in the. waistband of his of his jacket. It's.

hidden by the jacket. He gets into this. altercation with the police. I mean, I. had when I posted about it, I didn't say. this, >> but when a lot of the responses were. suicide by cop, people were like, "Suicide by cop." I mean, and I'm not. making that claim, but I mean, it his. behavior was I mean, the the. recklessness of the gun choice mirrors. the recklessness of his behavior in. those instances. And I heard people. being like, "Oh, well, he you know, he. was just defending that poor woman.". There was a police officer engaged in an. arrest of a person and Alex Prey. intervened in that. I mean, I think you.

can mess around. >> It was a little I don't know if it was. an arrest. The police officer shoved. this woman. >> Yeah. He put He was in an altercation. with somebody. You don't go people in. other words people go oh you got to put. yourself in what do you think you're. like who what do you think's going on. here like he should put himself in. between that no. >> the way the the the ICE officer wasn't a. police officer right it's an ICE officer. do you call them police the way the ICE. officer reacted to the woman did that. bothered me like he just he just shoved. this lady like like stepped forward and.

fully shoved her that's when Alex Freddy. gets involved and then pepper spray. comes out and then. >> and Alex Freddy should have absolutely. filmed that should have filmed the whole. thing. That that's exactly. >> Well, other people were filming it. It. was clear there's cameras all over the. place, >> but but don't multiple angles. >> Yeah. So, but it's like um. >> I just don't think that's appropriate. behavior [laughter]. >> to go and get that's not that's not the. tradition of like I mean I think there's. a nonviolent left-wing tradition that's. actually quite beautiful and spiritual.

and thorough and Gandhi and King. >> that's not what was going on in. Minneapolis. That's not at all what's. going on. This is a part of the problem. with these things being organized, right? Organized paid protests and also. people being radicalized by narratives. Then of course, very different than what. was going on with the the civil rights. movement. You have social media. So. people are like radically pushed in one. direction or another. And it's not clear. whether or not that's organic. It's not.

clear is this the voice of the people or. is this bot farms that are pushing. things in one direction or another? Is. is it I mean there's there's a lot of. people that I I cautiously watch their. their posts on on X where I know that. they're AI. I know it's AI. I can just. tell by the way they write. >> awful now. There's so much AI slop on X. right now. It's weird. >> It's weird because it does muddy the. water and it does with discourse, but it also radicalizes people one way.

or the radicalizes people towards the. right, radicalizes people towards the. left. It's not good. And I think this. guy, whatever his mental health. struggles were, they they appeared to. exist. It it seems like he was a. troubled guy already. So, a thing comes. along that defines them, a cause that. they're going to stand up for and fight. for cuz their life's probably a. mess and their mind is probably a mess. And they look at this, they look at it. like it's this black and white binary.

situation, good guys and bad guys, and. let's all these fascists. and he's. kicking tail lights and you know and. getting involved in pushing matches with. ICE agents. It's like that's crazy. Like. all that stuff can should and can get. you arrested. >> Yeah. I mean I think on the organized. issue, remember like the civil rights. movement was really well organized and. in terms it was like actually. >> people weren't being paid for it. It. wasn't being promoted on social media. It wasn't people's job. There are people. in America right now that are unemployed. that are paid protesters for a living.

Oh, I mean that's the entire like. left-wing NGO sector is basically that, right? Yeah. I mean that's like we saw I. see the level of San Francisco and for. homelessness they just go and you work. at an NG a government funded or Soros. funded NGO and then you do all that. civil disobedience stuff on your free. time and. >> but I was I just think I think that. you're you right you were right when. you're saying like because I think it's. the problem is not the organization. The. problem is that the organization in. Minneapolis had a goal of causing. exactly what occurred. Yes.

>> The the organization around the civil. rights movement was to desegregate soda. counters. [laughter] And so one of them. was about actually I mean the other. thing is that brought pull back a little. bit further. Martin Luther King and the. civil rights movement was about. affirming our liberal democratic western. civilization. Black people wanted to be. a part of it. >> Yes. this stuff where you're like, we. want to, you know, open the border and. defund the police and basically start. attacking all of these institutions of.

liberal democratic civilization. That's. different. That's a radicalized left. Um, fundamentally different clear he. defines it best as suicidal empathy. >> I don't agree with Gad on that. >> No, you don't think it's suicidal. empathy. I don't think it's either. suicidal or empathic because empathy is. empathy is like. >> well he he applies that to a lot of. progressive ideas not just the. immigration thing. I don't think he. necessarily I think it was actually long. before the immigration thing that he was. talking about at suicidal empathy. The.

idea being that you need the rule of law. to have a a safe and peaceful society. >> Yes, that part is true. That part's. true. >> Yeah. You need you need no violence. You. need no crime. And when you're taking. criminals and just releasing them from. jail and you have no cash bail and. you're doing all these things, if you. want to put on the tinfoil hat, you would do that because you want. chaos. Because you want chaos so you can. have more rules and tighten down on. people and have more control over the. sit the civilization. >> Yeah. I mean, I think in that I mean I.

think like it's not empathic to allow. more violent crime. Like I don't think. that's empathy towards victims. So I. don't think I wouldn't call it empathy. And not only that, but like when you. look at like these who these folks are, and I spent a lot of time looking at. them and was one of them. Um, they hate. Western civilization. They hate the. United States of America. They hate. capitalism. Like it's it's an. anti-ivilization thing that's motivating. it. And that's not to say that like. MSNBC watchers don't feel, oh, I feel. bad for that person. But I mean, I.

always, you know, it's like. >> like the people I hear complain about. ICE, they don't know any illegal. immigrants. they've never talked to them. other than maybe their server or that, you know, but they don't even really. talk to their gardeners or their or. their, you know, their their maids. Like. it's like the idea that they empathy. implies a deep understanding of. someone's situation. And so I think it's. a misdescription of empathy. I think in. some ways it's more quite the opposite. of that that they're actually not. showing empathy for all the people that.

are hurt by their policies. Whether it's. open borders or enabling addiction or. euthanizing poor and mentally ill people. in Canada um or transing kids. I don't. think that those things are empathic and. the person that's doing doing them I. don't think is suicidal. If anything. they're actually quite full of. themselves um and quite arrogant about. what they're doing. I mean, I use the. word pathological altruism in San. Francisco and I say it's close to. monkhousen syndrome by proxy. Maybe it.

is monks syndrome by proxy, but I don't. think it's I I worry about I worry about. affirming because I think that's how. progressives go. They go, "Oh, well, if. we if the homeless are are worse off, that's just because we care so much." I. just don't think that's the case. >> Well, that's the homeless thing is nuts. Because the homeless thing is just a. scam and we know that basically because. of California. like California, what. what's happened with the whole homeless. budget is so insane and that they vetoed. audits of these budgets. There's been.

$24 billion spent. No one knows where it. went. There's no accountability. >> and then the homeless situation. increases. >> Well, that's why I mean remember it's. like I it's funny like I my students. just did a paper we have something we've. been working on it too like the Canadian. youth in Asia program. Yeah. And it's. like every year the numbers just keep. going up and up and it remind me of when. you interview homeless you know service. providers in San Francisco they'll be. like yeah know we're doing an amazing. job every year we serve more and more. people. It's like right you have an you. have all the you have the wrong.

incentives. You're trying you're you. have an incentive to serve to you have. incentive to create homelessness and. that's what they've done. >> Well if you get more money if you have. more homeless your incentive is now not. to eliminate homelessness because that's. your job. >> right? That's how you make all your. money. When I first was alerted to that, I I was like, I can't believe this is. real. Like when you find out the amount. of money that's involved in. homelessness, like that they spend $24. billion. Okay. Where did that go? Where? And then there's no accountability.

Okay. There's no fraud. You're saying. there's no fraud? Zero. >> Well, I wish there was fraud. I mean, somebody was sort of like, can we. expose, you know, like Nick Shirley. exposed the daycarees not doing anything. in Minnesota? I was like, I wish the. homeless service providers weren't doing. anything. They if they were stealing the. money, then there'd be a lot less. homelessness. >> Well, what So, you think they're. actually using the money to create. homelessness? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, think about like. So, San Francisco was like between$1 and. $120,000 a year per homeless person. I.

think San I think LA had a bargain of. something more like 25,000. That's. that's just San Francisco. That doesn't. count the 24 uh billion that California. gave. So that money is going to, you. know, single resident occupancy hotel. owners. It's going to nonprofit service. providers who are just bringing food. and, you know, alcohol and drug. paraphernalia to make it easier for. people to do drugs and overdose and live. in tents on the street. That's you're. it's very expensive to kill that many.

people that way. That's what San. Francisco has proven, >> right? But it's really about the amount. of people where that's their industry. >> like that. There is an industry in. taking care of the homeless situation. and addressing the homeless situation. And you know, Kolan Noir when he was on. the podcast, he was explaining to me. that he went to San Francisco and he was. like, "Why is it so bad up here? Do they. need money?" He's like, "No, no, no.". This guy who's a lawyer was explaining. it to he he's a lawyer as well was. explaining it to him like, "No, no. These people are getting money to deal.

with the homeless situation and some of. them are making4 million dollars a year. and and more, which is just nuts." and. then it's not getting better. It's only. getting worse. And yet they ste they. still keep getting that money. So it's. like there's zero incentive to make it. better. There's only an incentive to. make it worse. And then when you have no. accountability, so there's no auditing. of the money. $24 billion is a lot of. money. So where's who's getting. greased up? Where's that money going? >> Mostly it's into the it's into the.

temporary what they call they call it. permanent. It's propaganda word. Propagan. It's a permanent supportive. housing. It's neither permanent nor. supportive. It's often warehousing. addicts where they die. I mean, we know. that they die at very high levels in. those little this is little crummy, you. know, single resident occupancy rooms. Yeah. >> They bought a lot of motel that were, you know, low lowinccome, you know, low, you know, cheap motel, converting them, having but they don't really, >> there's no I mean, all that money should. have gone into a centralized addiction.

and psychiatric care system. Calych is. what it should have been. And instead. it's just um it's just kind of yeah it's. just basically incentivizing people to. live on the streets and use hard drugs. and die and overdose. >> Well, it's just so crazy. I mean, if you. wanted to make it better, you would. incentivize them and pay them based on. the amount of people that are no longer. homeless, >> right? But they don't do that. >> But then the problem with that is, well, you're eventually going to fix it all. and then your business is going to go. away, >> right? And that's all happening. I think. it's I think it's all happening.

unconsciously like there's no room. there's no like you know secret room. where they're rubbing their hands and. being like oh we're gonna make a lot of. money this way. It's just um you know. when you interview them it's a very. basic view you know it's just these. people are victims. They're victims of. white supremacy and capitalism and and. to victims everything should be given. and nothing required. Well, I think. that's a nice narrative, but I think. once you start getting monthly paychecks. from from the homeless industrial. complex, I think your incentive is to. keep this party going. >> Well, sure, but they but they think it's.

good. I mean, they they go, "This shows. how how good we're doing that we got a. bigger budget this year." And that's how. they that's how they rationalize it. Yeah. [sighs]. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's a sign of a very sick. society. Hence the title of your book, San Francisco Sicko, which is a great. title. I mean, it's a sick place and it. was one of my favorite cities. It It was. an amazing city. I filmed my Netflix. special there in 2016. So, in just the. amount of time in 10 years, it's.

completely fallen apart. When I was. there in 2016, it was great with the I. mean, there was always a lot of homeless. people there, but you have that in any. liberal city, but it was never an. epidemic. It was never like tents. everywhere and on the streets. That. wasn't the case. It was just, you know, it was a liberal city, a progressive. liberal city, but it was cool. There was. a lot of outdoor music. It was fun. It. was a great place to go to restaurants. and people walked around. It was a a. great city filled with intelligent,

interesting, open-minded people. Man, I. lived there when I was a little kid. I. was there during the Vietnam War. From. age 7 to 11, I I lived in San Francisco. It's a little bit better now. They've. had a new mayor. Yeah, a little bit. Um. I mean, I want to acknowledge I can't. lie about it. It's a little bit better. I agree. Um I interview a lot of people. still about what's going on. >> It's still there. Like, >> did you see what happened with the mayor. >> with his security guard got pulled down? Yeah. >> First of all, security needs to learn. some jiu-jitsu.

>> The way he let that guy grab him, you he. didn't pummel. He didn't do anything. It. looked like he had no understanding of. what to do when that guy grabbed his. body. Like, how is he a security guard? That's crazy. How How can you be a. security for the mayor if you literally. don't know what to do in a clinch? >> I thought he looked like he didn't. really see the guy as a threat or. something like maybe he thought he was. just crazy homeless. >> Even if I didn't see a guy as a threat, if a guy grabs me like that, I'm not. going to let him get that position on. me. >> And he cut it back. Apparently, he cut. his back of his head and said,

>> banged him on the ground. He bodys. slammed onto the concrete and. then kind of a metaphor for the whole. situation. He just walks away d and he. walked away like it was nothing. Like he. walked away not he didn't run. >> Did you see though? Cuz I saw that video. and I couldn't tell if the mayor. actually saw what was happening. >> He seemed like he was going he was. looking that way and his. started physically struggling with each. other and then when they're struggling. with each other he walks off and then. the guy gets body slam. >> It was the weirdest video to watch. Yeah. Both because they both seem so.

nonchalant. They both seem Yeah. As a. metaphor from the city. >> This is a different angle. The mayor. actually is running off to get help. >> Oh, he is. Okay. >> Running off. >> Yeah. Let me uh refresh this real quick. >> Show me. I'm not kidding. >> So, there's the mayor right there. >> Okay. >> He pushes this guy here in a second. The. mayor sort of as soon as he gets to the. sidewalk, he takes off. >> So, why why are they hanging out with. this guy in the first place? >> That looks like they're in right there. >> So, the security guard started it and he. doesn't know what the he's doing.

>> And there's the over here. >> Okay. Oh, look at his like shitty techn. better video. >> And the other guy's a lot stronger than. him. So the mayor, >> he walks off. Hold on. He takes he. starts running right. He seems relaxed. >> Okay. Okay. He did start walking slowly. and then starts but. >> going to get help. >> That guy started it all. He pushed that. guy. If you're a security guy, the last. thing you want to do when there's one of. you and two of those other guys is deal.

with a situation that way where you push. a guy. >> I'm I have to say, it's so interesting. you say it. I'm always surprised when I. see them do like that was the same thing. that happened with the Freddy. >> We're just talking about it. >> Don't you think this guy's probably. armed, too? I mean, but also he shouldn't have pushed that. guy that way. I mean, the whole thing is. stupid. >> Look at the look at the chaos. So, somebody else just running around, another homeless person or something? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The other guy's probably talking I. bet that guy's funny. I bet he's the guy. with a big coat on. [laughter].

>> I mean, I don't. For the life of me, none of it makes. sense, >> right? >> None of it makes sense. The the the. mayor walking off casually and then. eventually running. It doesn't make. sense. The security guy just walked up. to the those guys and pushed him when. your details to take care of the mayor. You should be escorting him around that. and getting him away from any potential. trouble. Like the brazenness of just. walking up and pushing that guy where. you don't know how to fight at all. It's. very clear when you watch the way they.

grappled with each other. He doesn't. know what he's doing. This episode is. brought to you by Into It Turboax. April. 15th is coming fast. There's been so. many tax law changes this year, which. means you're going to need an expert who. has your back. You're in luck. Turboax. now has in-person locations nationwide. Walk into their tech- enabled stores and. meet face- tof face with a Turboax. fullervice expert who will get your best. outcome. Your expert works to get you.

every dollar you deserve while updating. you as you go about your day. Head to. turboax.com. to find a store near you. >> Seems like we're having a lot of. security problems in our society right. now. [laughter]. It's wild, right? I can't believe the. pushing. I mean, that's even the pretty. thing. Like, why pushing? Is that like a. Is that like an important law. enforcement technique? I mean, what is. that? >> Well, not only that, he pushed a small. woman. The the ICE guy just completely. just fullon shoves this small woman,

>> which means he was emotionally out of. control first, right? Like, it means. that he was angry. He was angry. >> These guys are not like special forces. guys. They're not well trained. These. guys are seven weeks. >> Seven weeks. And a lot of them are. financially incentivized cuz like if you. can get $50,000 to like if you're in. debt and then you could take this job on. and I don't when they get the $50,000. how long do they have to stay on the job. for to to to have that money to have. that signing bonus or is it one of those. things where you get the $50,000 as a.

signing bonus but you pay it like a. record deal type deal where you don't. it's not really your money you have to. make it up later I imagine. Still, if. you can get $50,000, there's a lot of. people that'll take that job. >> Yeah, [gasps]. I they're just um Yeah, it was just a. bunch of bad bad choices made by the. Trump administration on that one. >> Someone's uh Reddit comments saying they. have no personal experience, but they've. heard that it's 50K over four years if. you're in good standing at the end of. those four years, >> right?

>> Oh, so you only get it after four years, >> but that might not. But for some people. that have no job opportunities and no. nothing on the horizon, that $50,000. looks like, >> look, it's an extra 25k a year or an. extra, you know, 25k. >> um for for four years for 50 for. >> another person says that's incorrect. It's broken into 10 payments once at 90. days, then once every year for four more. years. Anyway, it's broken out. >> Either way, it's $50,000 that you would. not have been able to make ordinarily.

>> I mean, we had police shortages before. 2020. We had a bunch of police shortages. after that, mostly by police officers. who were just. >> felt mistreated by the society and by. their local mayors who said that they. were evil. >> Well, didn't a lot of cops resign when. Donnie got elected? >> Oh, I'm sure. And then a COVID drove and. then they and a bunch of police officers. driven out during COVID. So, there was. already our our security. >> forces have been, you know, and they. were just. >> people underestimate how important it is. to feel like important in your job and.

and respected. And it's not just about. the money because they would be offering. more money. But I think a lot of people. like, "Oh, no. I don't want to be in a. job where people are like spitting at me. or throwing urine and not just a job. where your life is on the line. >> Yeah. Your your life is already on the. line and then you're mistreated by the. wider societ which actually creates. additional risks, you know, as this. chaos in Minneapolis shows. So yeah, it's just um people want to believe that. they're doing something that is. appreciated by the community. And so. when the community decides that they're. against policing, your civilization's. pretty far gone,

>> right? This is the difference between. policing and this ICE thing. The ICE. thing is a different thing, right? They're looking at it differently. It's. not like you're watching a violent. altercation take place. The police show. up and people are spitting on them like. you're trying to break up a violent. crime. This is different. They're. looking at it like in the progressive. narrative is like no one's illegal on. stolen land and we need to have open. borders and illegals or immigrants. rather are the foundation of this. country. And you hear all that those. narratives. the president and those the.

president and the administration, they. wanted to pick a fight obviously with. this left-wing with activists in this. leftwing city. They thought it would. redown to their benefit to show how. crazy the left was and it backfired on. them. >> Well, I think they wanted to do. something about the amount of illegal. fraud that was just recently exposed in. Minneapolis. >> But that I don't know that that's but. you wouldn't do it with ICE raids, though. I mean, >> well, it's illegal immigrants. If you. have illegal immigrants that are. responsible for hundreds of millions of. dollars in fraud and you know at least. some of them are illegal, it's it seems.

rational that you would send ICE in to. find out who's illegal and who's not and. put a stop to some of it. And there's. also this nationwide focus on this one. place because of the Nick Shirley. videos. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Though I think that the motivate. my understanding um is that the. motivation was to uh motivate people. that are here illegally to self-. deepport. And so that that's the the. main part of the strategy is this show. of force because of course it's they. wanted the publicity. They wanted people. to be scared and self-epport. They claim. that you know 1 I think 3 million people.

self-epported or 1.4 and then another. 400,000 or 600,000. >> deported through the normal channels. And apparently they're just limited to. how many people they can actually deport. through the normal channels. But they. can get people can self-epport. They can. just go. >> right. And because of course there's. this thing called E-Verify where you. just have the employers have to prove. that everybody you're employing is here. legally and they don't want to do that. Trump administration doesn't want to do. that because they'll upset in particular. like the agricultural lobby but others. who dep construction.

>> who depend on so it's a it's a funny. it's not great. I don't know. I'm not. saying that there's that I have the. perfect, you know, answer to the other. one, but obviously like politically the. president doesn't feel like they can do. everify and maintain support from the. business community for his political. agenda. So, you end up but you end up. with a kind of underclass that's here. illegally, but that's protected because. they're working in a sector that the. president and the administration wants. to protect, but then you're also. self-deporting people. I I'm not sure.

exactly how they're thinking about it, but that appears to be uh what the the. heart of their goal is is. >> well, this was always, you know, what a. lot of people on the left back in the. day would say that illegal immigrants. was this was a like a Koch brothers. thing. this was like a right-wing thing. that they wanted this for. >> for exactly what you just described and. that this is not a left-wing progressive. idea and that what it would do was would. lower the wages for the lower class and. the middle class of this country and it.

would be bad for the citizens. And so. you don't want unchecked illegal. immigration. Unchecked illegal. immigration would just be for the right. because they're the ones who own these. massive corporations that are profiting. off of illegal labor. They don't have to. pay them benefits. they don't have to. pay them health care, any of the things. that are, you know, that cost money. >> Yeah. I mean, the on the left was always. balancing a sort of open society. You. know, they wanted the Soros Foundation. always wanted to have a free movement of. people to that was sort of their view of. why part why the Holocaust occurred is.

that you couldn't move people, you know, you know, or at least the persecutions, you couldn't move people as easily. But. then you had the working class, you. know, who were negatively affected by. bringing in migrants who would push down. wages and unions who were a big part of. the Democratic party. So the Democrats. were sort of divided on it for a while, but they managed it. And Hillary and. Obama would sort of if you look at when. they were competing in in 2008, they. were very carefully like there was a. whole thing around like driver's. licenses, whether she would give them or. not, and Obama accused Hillary of of.

kind of playing both sides of it, you. know, typical thing. But they also both. spoke out strongly against uh mass. migration. Fast forward 10 year no fast. forward much more than that. It was at. 16 years into in today and now you've. got a much more workingclass Republican. party who's unified around uh keeping. the borders closed and and restricting. the supply of low-income unskilled. workers because I mean it's just. obvious. I mean, it's it was really. weird to watch people that are always. defending supply and demand and. economics and economic policy then say,

"Oh, no, but having open borders and. having all these working-class people. come in um is going to have no impact on. wages when obviously it would." And I. think that's now that's also now gone. I. think that's another thing that's just. Trump has just changed. I don't think. you're going to see Democrats going back. to advocating that kind of mass. migration again, >> right? But you could see a world where. they would push back against what has. happened. What what they would say the. barbaric nature of some of these ICE. raids and then saying from there's.

filtered ice water in that too if you'd. like. But you don't have to not have. your bottle. We don't care. >> Oh, it's in the shot. No. >> No, it doesn't matter. We don't care. It. doesn't matter. Um, but you could see. how they could go back to a much looser. border policy and get back to what. they're because it was They won't. I. think they won't. I think the closed. border. >> I mean I think that that sweet spot of. public opinion is like people really. want to close I think it was just really. um. >> but I don't think public opinion.

supported an open border even on the. left. >> No. >> During those last four years, but yet. they did it anyway and they were moving. people to blue states. >> They were moving people to swing states. They were flying people in, busing. people. They were doing it on purpose. >> Isn't that Isn't that also though. because the blue state governors were. more welcoming of them? >> There's a little bit of that. But there. was also the idea that you're going to. juice up the congressional seats because. you're going to change the census. >> maybe. Although California lost seats, right? Or lost. >> Well, because California has done such a. terrible job of governing their.

state. It's so it that place is so. crazy. Like every time there's some new. law that they're trying to push through, some new bill. And I'm like, do they. just want everyone to leave? Like, >> well, they drove the billionaires out, right? Yeah. >> I mean, I know they drove out David. Sachs came to Austin. I think Mark. Zuckerberg moved to Florida. I heard. rumors of Steven Spielberg. I don't know. if that's I don't want to spread. disinformation. I don't want to spread. misinformation, but I heard he was. leaving. But yeah, it's cool. >> The thing that drives me the most nuts. is when these progressive talking heads. saying they don't want to pay their fair. share.

with the amount of waste and fraud. Why. would you you don't think there should. be some accountability to how much. waste and fraud that has been. clearly demonstrated? Like you the the. solution is just give more money. Oh, and they can do it because they have it. So what? You just give more money and. now it's $30 billion goes to homeless. with no accountability. Like what are. you what are you saying? Like where do. you think this money is going to go. where it's actually going to help people. and affect things in a positive way?

There's been no indication that that's. the case that the real problem is they. just haven't had enough money from the. billionaires. That's ludicrous. That idea is lud. It's such a lazy, intellectually lazy way of framing this. whole discussion that's saying, "Oh, they don't want to pay their fair. share." you. That's not what's. going on here. What's going on here? You. have a completely incompetent government. that's absolutely corrupt and they want. more money. >> Oh, yeah. >> Gas is like $8 a gallon almost now.

>> That's bananas. They were going to shut. down. I mean the refiners are being shut. down and that that initiative the. billionaires tax is an SEIU initiative. So meaning it's the union that covers. healthcare workers like nurses. They're. very radical very radical left and the. money is to provide Medicaid for. undocumented immigrants. Like that's. what they want it for, right? So like. that's the whole thing. And and so you. literally get the this is like this is. what people worry about democracy. you. get all the it's very democratic, but.

you get these powerful unions and. they're able to change the laws like. that. I mean, it's called the Curly. effect because there was a Boston mayor. named Curley who made everything so bad. for his political opponents that they. left. But the consequence was that he. ended up gaining more power. So all of. when everybody moves to, you know, when. all the like moderate Democrats moved to. Austin or Miami or Denver or wherever, uh, California just ends up locked in. more to a progressive agenda. That's the. problem. Well, I think the idea is that it's so.

good there that most people are just. going to tolerate whatever new. they throw your way. >> 100%. And also, I mean, it seems like. the tech community is now backing the. San Jose mayor who's running, who's a. very he's Democrat, very moderate. I, you know, but he's been critical of. Gavin. >> running for governor. >> Yeah. Mad Mayhem. >> So, keep your eyes on him. I mean, he's. not um he's not like maybe the most. exciting guy, but he's definitely. running as a moderate. Seems like the exciting people are a. problem.

>> I know they want He might be enough to I. don't know. It's hard to say, but it. does look like cuz I mean look, there's. plenty of the tech community only woke. up politically in 2024. That's how long. it took. And it really took things. getting so bad where they were telling. Mark Andre, as he said to you on your. show, that they were shutting off whole. parts of AI. The B administration was. openly threatening AI and this huge new. and you know, there's concerns. I'm not. saying that there's not, but I think. that I think at some point the tech. community, which had been, you know,

either leaning Democrat, you know, for a. long time since the Obama era, you know, or wanted to stay out of politics. because they just want to focus on their. machines and and their investments. They. don't really want to be involved in. politics. But they woke up in 2024 and. so hopefully because it's not I mean. when you see what Soros has done and you. really appreciate the power that one. billionaire can have you kind of go why. is there nothing like that you know on. the other side? Why is it so dominated. by Soros? And so I hope that that's. starting to happen. But yeah, when you. start to chase out the billionaires and.

the billionaires just give up on. California, then it's got to be. whoever's remaining to to try to, you. know, put the money behind the guy that. can get some change there. Yeah, that's I mean I don't see a. pathway where California anytime soon. turns around. I don't see how it could. I feel like it's the momentum has. shifted so far in a terrible direction. and the solutions are always tax more. take more money from people. And you see. you have this completely corrupt,

irresponsible, fraudridden, wasteful government that. wants more of your money and the. solution is if we take more money, we're. going to make things better, which is. just insanity. >> I mean, things that can't go on don't. So, I mean, you could see it, right? I. mean, Matt, if say Matt Mahan or. somebody more moderate gets him to be. governor, Rick Caruso runs for LA mayor. again. I mean, honestly, like if. somebody can't defeat Karen Bass after. she let Los Angeles burn away, which is.

now we now know for a fact was just. totally preventable. Absolutely. preventable. I was saying at the time, but now we know they tried to rewrite. the report, but it's clear it was. totally preventable. >> How' they try to rewrite the report? >> Well, the report, you know, said here's. all the things that the fire department. should have done that didn't happen. And. ultimately, you know, the mayor is the. one that chooses the fire chief and. fires the fire chief. And the mayor was. war, they were warned and she goes to. flies to Ghana for this little junket. presidential inauguration ping around.

when she should have been in LA with a. at a command uh headquarters and you. know and if she wasn't then Gavin should. have been you know Schwarzenegger. towards the end of his administration. they would just mobilize planes full of. water you know hu these those huge cargo. planes full of water before there were. fires just to start to circulate just to. get ready to put stuff out. this idea. that there was this idea promoted that. it was inevitable that the fires that oh. eventually it's just no like it's absurd. like of course you can protect it with. adequate fire oh the pipes weren't big.

enough no like maintain your reservoirs. have water in them even the one that was. like was like not repaired yet which. should have been repaired they could. have kept uh they could have airgapped. the pipes so that it didn't contaminate. the water supply but left it for. firefighting they didn't do that they. didn't station the engines where they. needed to station them nobody was on, you know, it's like they're not taking. responsibility. Like they they weren't. taking responsibility for it. So anyway, to the point being, you get a new. governor, you get a better mayor of LA, you've got a guy in San Francisco now. who I think has still has a lot of.

potential. I mean, this latest video, uh, you know, showing the chaos there. But you with that, I think you could fix. him though. It's not his fault. >> His, you know, the criticism of him is. he walked away too casually. [laughter]. >> Yeah. No big deal. Yeah. So, I mean, I. think there is a there is a way for. California to come out and my view is. like, look, you've got it's it's on the. tech billionaires. They they you know, and I know some of them have left and. obviously they don't need, but that. there's still a lot of billionaire rich. guys in California that are perfectly. capable of financing an alternative.

effort. The vote, you know, remember 75%. of San Francisco voters want to arrest. people using fentanyl in public. They. they want to arrest them. Okay, that. sounds so that's so taboo in progressive. that's 75% of San Francisco voters. So. the voters are not they're not the. radical left. Um some ways they're. radicalized in their hatred of Trump and. the Trump derangement syndrome, but I. mean everyone like Caruso and Mahan and. anybody else there will all just be able. to say they hate Trump like everybody. else.

>> Well, I think they've seen the. consequences of these policies. >> Oh yeah, there's people are people are. really there it's not like anything has. changed that significantly. they will. In fact, when I interview people in San. Francisco, they're a little reluctant to. admit that it's gotten better because I. think they don't want to take any. pressure off the politicians. >> So, I mean, I do think it's it's. rescuable. Um, but it's hard. >> when you say it's gotten better. Like, how so? >> Mostly the encampments are being broken. up now. You see a little you see more of. that sort of thing that we just saw in. the video where there's like I call them.

like a little more of like a nest, you. know, there's just a little home big. encampments like Yeah. the whole block. that's in Oakland. Yeah, >> that's in Skid Row. >> Oh, Oakland's nuts. >> Oakland is Oakland might not be savable. Um, they had a chance to save themselves. and they ended up voting for the wrong. person for mayor and it's just as bad as. ever. So, but I think if you get San. Francisco, LA, and a new governor in. place, I think you've got the makings to. save it. But, >> have you seen this video? This guy does. this description of what's going on in. Oakland and then drives across the.

county line into the next place and it's. immediately all done and you just see. what the difference between two. different forms of government and how it. works. >> I I didn't see that one, but I saw the. one between Venice and Santa Monica. >> Yeah, >> I was there when the Venice and Santa. Monica was similar like you're like, why. are there tents? Why aren't there any. tents there? It's like that's Santa. Monica. Yeah, >> it's different. >> Well, there's still some some. >> Santa Monica got bad, too. Yeah, >> but they cleaned it up a little bit. better. Yeah, >> but Venice is bananas. It's just But. Venice is nothing compared to Skid Row.

Skid Row is 50 blocks. >> Venice is okay now. Venice is okay now. Yeah, they cleaned that up pretty. quickly and then they and then the. voters fired their city council member. who represented them who was total crazy. radical Chess Bodin level radical and. replaced him with a more moderate. person. So, but yeah. >> So, like when you go to the beach, it's. not chaos anymore. No, I mean. >> I'm not there's always it's but I mean. remember before it was just it was tense. everywhere. I mean it was chaos and they. were dug in, you know, it was like. crazy.

>> So no, that's gone. Um but Skid Row, it's bad as ever. >> Skid Row is 50 blocks. 50 blocks is so. crazy. 50 blocks of tents and homeless. people. When we first heard that, I was. like, that's got to be wrong. It's. probably five blocks. No, it's 50. 50. blocks. That's an enormous amount of. land that's completely covered by. homeless in campus. >> There's like a whole genre of like of. like influencers when they first visit. Skidro because everyone hears about it. and then you see like their their tweets. are just like they're just like all I.

couldn't believe. Like I think it's like. maybe Ben Shapiro or there's various. conservative influencers who have gone. to Skidro and they're like I had no. idea. >> You have no idea until you see it. >> There was a comic from the comedy store. that filmed something. He went like. undercover and see he had like in his. past he had some I I don't think I think. currently he was sober when he did this. but he decided to go there and film and. stay in one of these encampments just to. show what it was like and this is like. 2006ish.

sixish somewhere around there. It was. nuts even back then. And you. know, we talked about the story of how. Skid Row with the whole Jerome Hotel and. how it all had started. Skidro was the. place where they would take all the. homeless people and all the people that. were problematic and they would move. them there and keep them there. And the. idea was they just keep them out of. Beverly Hills, keep them away from. Hollywood. We're doing movies and we've. got famous people walking around. We. can't have homeless people. Just snatch.

them up, take them downtown and contain. them. So they had them contained in this. area and they called it Skid Row and. then it just kept getting bigger. >> It's not that different from the. Tenderloin in the sense that those are. places where those single resident those. are places where the really cheap hotels. were. They were like often for like. working for like working people that. were in town temporarily like temporary. hotels. Some of them would just be. cages. There were no walls. Like you. would just get your own little that was. how primitive they were. And then it. just evolved over time and then they. became all of them became subsidized for. for the homeless. But yeah, it's um I.

don't think I think California I think. it's important I think with Trump and. again like him or hate him or disagree. or whatever you see the potential of. this country in particular to make a big. change and I think that it's ultimately. resulted from a unleashing of you know. social media made it all possible. It. allowed for people to get you know. accurate information for the first time. and a different paradigm. So I I I I. don't want to lose hope on the Golden. State. >> But you lost hope on Oakland.

>> Yeah. [laughter]. Yeah. But maybe I never had hope for. Oakland. So at one point in time, Oakland was great. >> Yeah. I mean, Jerry Brown actually. brought it up a bit, you know, got it. more development there. But yeah, it's. all about governance. >> Yeah, it is. Um I guess. >> Hey, can I use the bathroom? >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. We'll pause. We'll be right back, folks. I just uh. sent Jamie something funny that someone. just sent me about San Francisco. There's this guy uh I think he calls.

himself the gay Republican. >> The gay Republican [laughter]. >> the pro. There's a lot of those. actually. Um but which is shouldn't. shock people. >> They're closeted about the Republican. part now. That's the thing. >> Well, it depends on how wealthy they. are. I mean, some of them are pretty, you know, Peter Teal pretty open about. it. >> He Well, he was Yeah. about his. Republicanism. >> Watch this. Grand Transit. We refuse to. release crime surveillance videos. because it will make people racist. Releasing videos would create a racial. bias in the riders against minorities on.

the trains. Why would it do that? San. Fran Transit. Why would it why would it. create a bias? Is there is there a. reoccurring theme among the people. committing crimes? >> You could say that about European crime. statistics as well. That's also why the. the Germans actually uh. >> in particular, but I think other. European countries did not want to. release, >> right? >> But they they they did get them out. They have come out now. So, >> and the UK. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so, let's move on to happier.

subjects, shall we? >> So, what do you think about all this uh. UAP talk? It's one thing that Trump has. said that he's going to release whatever. files that they might have on UAPs. um alien, terrestrial beings, all this. jazz. Uh I talked to Jesse Michaels. about it. He is highly skeptical and he. said the people that are involved are. all old guard and you know they're just. it's just going to be a bunch of.

horseshit. Maybe I mean just first of all look I. mean I think whatever you think about. the phenomenon this is amazing. I mean. the president just said he's going to. release all these things. So I mean. after decades of saying we're not. interested in this. We're not we're not. following this. uh we're shutting down. Blue Book, you know, there's nothing. there. Uh they're like he's he's saying. so I mean that right there is is I think. amazing and I thought the whole thing. was amazing. Like Obama comes out and he. goes what? There's definitely aliens. Oh, but they're not Area 51 unless. they're hiding it from presidents, which.

is like a wellestablished conspiracy. theory. So to have Obama even say that. and then Trump comes up and he goes he. goes Obama revealed classified. information with a little grin on his. face cuz he's little rivalry with Obama. I might help him out by declassifying. and then a few hours later he did. I. mean I What can't you like about that? I. mean I think that. >> Well, it's theater. That's what you. can't like about. >> it's theater. But I mean. >> until something really comes out this is. just another distraction. >> to keep us from thinking about all the.

other things that are going on. >> But you can't be so I mean we should get. into Epstein files too because I do. think I have a different view of Epstein. now. But um look, I just think we've. been asking for more transparency like. we had in this very brief period in the. mid70s with the church committee. hearings. It really took a whole. Watergate. It took something big. It's. been over 50 years. >> We got a lot of Epstein files. Yes, there's some missing, but we got JFK. files, Amelia Heheart files, and now. we're going to get some UFO files. Is it. going to be everything? Of course not. Like there's just no way. Um you know, but I don't think like I think we should.

hold both. we should be ex happy that. like there is an acknowledgement that. there's a lot of government files and. that there's some commitment to release. them because I do think like it's easier. to get new Epstein files released after. you have some Epstein files released. than if you have none and I feel the. same way about UFOs. >> Okay. So, it's easier to get more UFO. files released. But like. >> release like. >> what do we want? I think one of it is. like what do we want? And I've been uh.

you know I respect John Greenwald a lot. He runs something called the. blackvault.com. where he has been foying he's been. issuing you know freedom of information. act requests on UAP but also a ton of. other issues since the mid 90s when he. was like 15 years old. He became. obsessed with doing foyer requests and. he has identified a number of documents. that we know exist with redactions. One. of them is the UAP task force which has. a line that just says potential. explanations. You know, the first.

explanation is redacted. It's blacked. out. The second one is, you know, some. sort of natural phenomenon. Number three. is blacked out. It's redacted. Unredact. those. I mean, come on, guys. You can't. tell me, well, we have to protect our. sensor data. Come on, guys. I mean, like, that's not sensor data. Uh, tell. us what the potential explanations are. are. >> on terms of the sensor data. John also. made a great point. Do you remember when. the the Pentagon released the video of. the Russian jet uh dumping fuel on on. one of our drones? Uh there's like a. famous video where they show it's a. hostile act by the Russians dumping fuel.

on our drone. >> When was this? >> Just recently. I mean must have been. within the last year or so. So like. they're not we do see they do release uh. you know warfare various various times. they do release things and you can kind. of go okay that means that we have I. don't think what I'm saying is the main. excuse has been not to reveal our. methods uh for for getting you know this. if we're just talking about UAP here. getting uh you know photographs and. video we know that a huge amount of it. exists they haven't even released the.

the full you know gimbal and uh go fast. videos there's a whole bunch more video. left really. So just Yeah. >> So that the video that came out that. those were whistleblower leaks, right? >> Eventually they released them formally. though the Pentagon did. So there's much. more of that. So. >> and the the particularly sorry to. interrupt you but the the was it the. gimbal or the go fast where there was. many more crafts. >> I believe that there was so there's. three videos, right? It's gimbal go fast. and then.

>> uh what was the one where it the tic tac. video? It moves out of the frame. My. understanding is that there's. significantly more video for all of. those. And then I also my understanding. is also there's just a lot of other. videos um particularly from those two. incidents certainly have there's so much. more sensor data from because we know. those incidents had a lot more going on. right than just was filmed by those. videos. >> So I think that now there is I was going. to say the UAP community there isn't. really an organized one although Jesse's. doing an amazing job of organizing it. Um we should be really specific and say.

you know here's what we want. I did a. piece with John Greenwald. Um, Representative Nancy Mace wrote an open. letter to uh the intelligence and. military community saying, "Here's a set. of documents that we want to release.". So, I think the good news is we're like, "Look, the president has said he wants. this. We've identified a bunch of. documents, identified a bunch of videos. and film." Yeah. I mean, are they going. to withhold stuff? Are they going to. mislead? Probably. But that's been the. story for 80 years. >> Oh, yeah. You saw the age of disclosure, right? >> Yes, of course.

>> Okay. So I think they make a really good. point in age of disclosure that if they. did release things the real problem is. misappropriation of funds lying to. Congress and the fact that some of these. you would assume that the way these. things are being handled if they do have. crafts if they are if there is some sort. of a back engineering program that back. engineering program is going to be held. by a military contractor. So, so. whatever the contractor is, whether.

it's, you know, Rocket Dine or who, whoever has it, right? You would imagine. that the other competing groups would be. very pissed off that they didn't have. access to this thing and they they could. sue the misappropriation of funds, lying. to Congress, people could go to jail. Also, most likely fraud. There's there's. got to be tons of fraud if there's so. much money that's being like shuffled. away into these black ops projects. If there's no oversight, then who knows.

where the money's going, right? And so. there's a problem there. If you open up. the books and and people go, "Well, where why why was there $100 million. check written here? Where where's the. $2.3 billion that's missing here?" And. you know, >> I'm Yeah, I have doubts now. I mean, I. have to say, I didn't finish watching. it, but you know, Jesse just dropped a. video with him and Eric Weinstein and. Eric Davis. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Jesse. Yeah. So, Jesse, >> I haven't seen that yet. >> Yeah. Uh, I found it really, it really. made me question whether there's any.

there there. Um, >> what does Eric Davis do? >> Eric Davis, you know who he is? He's got. the bushy beard and he's in Age of. Disclosure and um is part of the whole, you know, Bigalow, >> you know, that whole OAP, ATIP. He was a. I don't know his exact he was a he's a. scientist. >> Okay. But he was sort of talking about. like because I think Eric Weinstein was. asking these really hard questions like. okay well like how many people are in. this you know reverse engineering. program and what is it and I just found. his answers to be very thin. So I'm.

>> I haven't seen it yet so I can't comment. on that but. >> I know there's both skeptical and. open-minded at the same time. >> There is a like yeah I just I definitely. think there's a lot more than they've. revealed. I think my skepticism on the. reverse engineering stuff I mean. obviously there's crash retrieval. because they're just retrieving it could. be foreign or they're retrieving. something the reverse engineering I mean. if it's advanced tech nuclear just took. so I mean I'm just familiar with the.

history of nuclear it just took so much. effort to create nuclear energy and. you'd have these huge it was a huge. enterprise thousands of people if. they're not do I mean that's why I kind. of go and I mean a whole other form of. propulsion I mean it's just really it. would require so many so such a big. bureaucracy. That's where I'm a little. skeptical that that exists because I. don't know how you maintain a cover up. that long. But I could be wrong. I mean, as uh um you know, as people have. pointed out, they've maintained secrecy.

of a lot of things for a really long. time. So, it's not inconceivable. But. >> well, especially when you're dealing. with government contractors and military. contractors, they they've done a I mean, they they have a long history of keeping. a tight lip when it comes to all sorts. of top secret projects that they're. working on. >> I mean, it's weird because like if you. look at the UAP task force, which was. created by people that had it, you know, it was like comes out of they have OAP. and then ATIP and then UAP task force. and then they create ERA which is much. more like what Blue Book was, which is.

their whole point is to debunk and. dismiss. I think that's the whole point. It's it's to just to say we looked into. it and there's nothing there. So then. they and they cherrypick the cases like. they don't actually deal with it with. stuff that they can't explain. That's. what Arrow's point is. >> But the UAP task force was people that. seem genuinely interested in it and they. have potential explanations and three. separate things. So that means that they. didn't know themselves. And so I would. think that if you if there was some. reverse engineering program, then you. would have a better idea than just three.

potential explanations. But that's. assuming they actually got access. >> The UAP task force people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean. >> because if they open themselves up for. if they do have access then you open up. those questions. Misappropriation of. funds, lying to Congress, military. contractors having access to these. vehicles. I I would imagine that's too. messy. >> They get very mumbly. They get very. mumbly at that point. I find when you. start kind of like well what is it and. how many people kind of it's a lot of. like h you know I mean that's how I.

that's how that was my interpretation of. this. >> I think that it's um I'm much more with. Jacqu Valet's view of the phenomenon and. I think that it um that they don't know. what it is. I think they have a lot more. uh fil photos and videos showing just. demonstrating this incredible. phenomenon, but I'm not sure that they. know what it is. And I'm pretty. skeptical that they have a secret. reverse engineering program just because. I don't I don't see how they how they. would have carried it out for this long. because Jesse's theory of course is that. it would date back to the seven to the.

50s. >> Yeah. >> And it just there's just too many. possibilities for too many deathbed. confessions from people to reveal this. knowledge. So, >> but don't you think you would keep a a. really close watch on anyone who had any. access to any of these things and and. that would be very threatening to them. like Bob Lazar? >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You believe. Bob Lazar? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what he was working on, whether or not it was ours or something. else or what,

>> but I don't think he's a liar. He's had. the same story forever. >> Well, then we should go demand the. documents. I mean, that would be. something where we just need to be like, look, these are the documents that we. want and it's on this this place these. years. Well, one of the things that Bob. said is he thinks some of the documents. that he was shown were horseshit and he. thinks it's on purpose. He thinks. they're that those fake documents that. the fake narratives are a hook. So that. if somebody does spill the beans, they. know exactly who would who was doing it.

because they could point to like maybe. if you're involved in, you know, X. program, they give you some. narrative on top of the real truth, right? They'll make up some stuff, right? That way if you really, well, the. government told me X, and you go, oh, okay, he learned it from this. he's a. part of this program. Now we've narrowed. it down to 250 employees. Let's start. scouring these people and counter. questions. Yeah. Counter intelligence. Yeah. I mean it seems like so you know. the MJ12 documents. There's one of them.

that is this incredible document. I mean. just if it's a forgery and most people I. think it's a forgery or it's a hoax or. whatever. It's so well done. It's the. manual on extraterrestrial crash. retrieval um with different. morphologies. Have you ever seen this? People even seen it's amazing document. Like I spent went down like a long. rabbit hole. Look, Mo, I would say most. ufologists think it's fake. So it's not. even me. I What's incredible about they. show like you know like the old books. and from the library they'd show who. checked it out. They had all these. names. >> It's an So then you kind of go like the.

only people really I mean it seemed like. the level of sophistication to create. this would have been the government. And. so then you're sort of like well why. would they have done that? One of the. answers is it was just this called. passage material to be able to detect. counter intelligence activities. I'll. tell you another one that I can't quite. figure out. I mean there's a lot of. effort to and why that narrative like. another thing I was people say is. they'll go well they're using the UAP. stuff as cover for secret weapons. programs and you're like well why would. that work as cover and they go well.

because then then it's a way to distract. attention. I was like but why would that. distract attention? Wouldn't that. attract attention? You go, don't if you. as opposed to like within the military. like look, we don't this is this is. secret research, you know, that's really. important to national security. We don't. want you pay attention. Instead, they're. like, oh no, this is UFO crash. retrieval, so don't pay attention to it. That seems like you're a recipe for. creating more interest in UFOs. Yeah. >> So there's a lot of things that the. government has done where you're like. it's almost like assuming that is by the.

way the we know that like we know that. the government the US Air Force did you. know in the early 80s make this guy Paul. Benowitz go crazy who was seeing things. over Kirtland Air Base and then this guy. Richard Dodie you know was. >> how' they make him go crazy. >> they would be feeding him all this. information convincing him of an alien. attack and he basically ended up going. crazy from it. It's this uh amazing. story told by this by this book Mirage. Men, also a documentary. >> And you look at you kind of go and they. go, "Well, it was to cover up a secret. weapons program at Kirtland Air Base.".

And it's like it's like I I'm not I'm. not even disbelieving it, but it's like. that's just such a like why would that. be the best way to do that? And why. would you be so sure that that wouldn't. attract interest from people rather than. distract it? So, there's a bunch of. things that don't make sense. And so. even if it is all, you know, which is. the skeptic view, you know, is that it's. some combination of government. disinformation, sci-fi, you know, dreams, hypnosis, hypnogogic states, um, and then and then kind of the power of.

belief. You know, I just reviewed this. new book on Barney and Betty Hill where. the author thinks that it was that that. really was a combination of her uh it. was the stress of being an interracial. couple, her nightmares, and then. hypnosis where they then confabulate. this whole story. That's the basic. skeptic view is that it was sort of but. but the government's involved in it. And. that's always strange because you're. like, why would the government be part. of the Betty and Barney Hill story? No, no, in the in the UFO in creating in.

these UFO assuming that they did the. MJ12 or somebody did the MJ12, but. certainly in the case of. >> right why would they have any. organizations. >> why would they have anything right why. would they have. >> why would you be why would you be doing. like the thing with like the Paul Dodie. and the Paul Benowits or the Richard. Dodie and Paul Benowitz is like why why. was that the best I mean it's just why. was that the best way like somebody. observes strange activity over Kirtland. Air Base and they discover this Why was. that the right approach? I don't I don't.

follow it. And you had AJ Gentile on who. did the stuff on crop circles. We saw. they saw military disinformation around. those activities in Britain. So, you see. a lot of. >> um. >> the crop circle thing is weird. >> Really weird. >> cuz you want to just write it off. I. mean, I wanted to write it off. I'm. like, "Oh, there's guys with boards. They're making designs." But then you. see some of the designs and how the the. the wheat is actually woven and how they. have these exploded nodes almost like. they're microwaved and they've examined.

these things and it seems like there's. some energy that's created these things. And also the the sheer size and scale of. some of these things with no footprints. leading into them or out of them and. just the geometric precision of some of. them. It's really weird. Like there's uh. of course it's eyewitness accounts. It's. hard to know if they're being accurate, but people who've flown over areas where. there's nothing there. Flown back two. hours later and there's these football.

field size Mandelro sets. >> That was the Julius set over next to. Stonehenge was the one that the guy flew. over and there was nothing there and a. couple of hours later there was the. Julius set which is a spectacular. >> Yeah, it's incred. >> I'll tell you weird. >> Incredible precision. That's what's. really as much precision as you can get. by folding over wheat. But when you look. at it like from above and you know you. don't get to the the micro. you you're looking at these things that.

like they really do scale in a fractal. way. It's very strange and. difficult to reproduce. You would. imagine something like that would take a. long time to plot out and plan. It would take multiple people. You'd. have to measure and rememeasure. you'd. have to have some some sort of tools and. instruments not just to fold over the. the wheat, but if you're going to. interweave the wheat, like what is your. method of doing that? And how are you. doing it where you know this one is one.

dimension and then the next one is. precisely three-fifths of that. dimension. The next one is slightly and. and they're fractal. >> Well, it gets really even weirder than. that. So, you know how I just I just. described this case of of of this Air. Force counter intelligence guy driving. this guy Paul Benoitz crazy at affairs. >> That book is written by Mark Pilington. Mark Pilkington is one of two guys that. claim to have created all the crop. circles. The other guy is a guy named. John Lunberg. >> Right. Right. >> AJ in his video about the crop circles.

accuses John Lundberg. Again, the cir. they call the circle makers. They have a. website they keep updated. He accuses. him of being a British intelligence. agent. AJ does, or at least he strongly. implies it. >> Um, and and part of that is because. there was a bunch of weird stuff on the. website about MI5 and the CIA. And then. Lunberg went to a school. This is all. very circumstantial, so I'm not. defending. I'm just saying what AJ said. Then Lunberg went to a school that. shares a courtyard with with an MI with. MI with an MI5 campus or an MI5 training.

area. I asked Mark, I have like a three. I have like three hours of interviews. with Mark um who I'm really interesting. person. I asked him directly if they had. any connection to military intelligence. He said absolutely not. Um it's hard to. >> which is what you would say. >> Well, of course you're allowed to say it. if you are, but I'm not making any. accusations. But yeah, I mean he claimed. that they made all of them and you know. there's some of them. Have you ever seen. the massive? There was one that was. absolutely massive. >> Yeah. Pull some of them up Jamie so we.

can get some. There's the Julius set, but there's another there's another one. that's so big it's really hard to see, but he said that he wasn't at that one. >> That's the famous That's the Julius. head's gorgeous. Oh, the big one right. there is in the middle. That one's just. crazy. >> These are enormous. >> Yeah, they're enormous. >> Go full screen on that. >> It's They're so big. >> And I mean, the amount of precision. involved in them is kind of spectacular. Now Mark denies that they have exploded. nodes and he denies that they're.

interwoven. AJ says that they are. definitely interwoven and have exploded. nodes and there was an even an article. in Science magazine which you know. argues that they were made by humans but. that they they point out the um the. exploded nodes. So yeah, maybe that's. it. >> What's weird too is there's like how did. you do this? Where? How do What's the. Where's the evidence of people trampling. through this with equipment? No, it's all missing. Like, it's. strange. And then also, no one's caught.

doing them. >> How about the pie? Oh, here's the other. one. I asked Mark about this and he. didn't know about it, but do you know. the pi one? >> Yeah, >> that was apparently I'm pretty sure it's. the first time that it was a visual. explanation of pi. That's my. understanding of it. Now maybe I maybe. there's someone I haven't seen anything. earlier than that but that's like on its. own is really amazing that that was the. first time that they had created a. visual representation of of pi. >> Yeah. >> Um complete with like the Yeah, that's. it. It's like um there's a there's. another uh image that will show how it.

is pi. Probably that one right there. Yeah. >> Um and so that's a extremely. sophisticated. >> extremely. >> crop circle, >> right? Um, >> I mean, imagine the type of intelligence. that you'd have to possess to pull this. off and then not let anybody know that. you did it. And it's just for funsies. Just for funsies in a field. >> Yeah. It's um And then you know these. MIT researchers went out. That's also. part of it. And they tried to do it and.

it just wasn't it wasn't nearly as good. >> Yeah. What is this article saying? >> Why you guys are talking? >> Okay. >> It is very weird. Yeah. It's. very weird. and it but the whole UFO. thing is very weird. it. You know, the Jacques Valet books are. very interesting and I've read three of. his books so far and um I I I've had him. on a couple of times and the last time I. had him on I I really went on a deep. dive and I read two of his books right. before he came on and one of the more.

interesting things is the really old. stories like the stories from the 1700s, the 1800s where they lack the context of. spaceships, the idea behind it, like. none of that stuff exists. But yet you. get almost. at least you you could say, "Oh, I could. understand how they would be describing. it this way." But it's kind of the same. thing that other people have been. describing. like the the Zimbabwe story, a lot of these other stories, it's kind.

of the same story over and over and over. again, which makes you go, okay, well, what does it have to be from outer. space, or is it possible that there is. something here that is like far older. than us that has somehow or another. removed itself from our view? >> Or is it social contagion and people? I. mean, I'm always struck by it's always. like the aliens always are like, "Oh, protect your environment and avoid. nuclear war." It's like, "Oh, thanks.".

Like, "We didn't know we needed to do. those until you guys showed up." It. makes more sense as like you could see. it as a I mean, I got very into I. haven't interviewed her yet, but I'm. about to. There's a there's an. anthropologist at Stanford named Tanya. Lurman and she's done this incredible. work on religions where she um like. anthrop good anthropologists and also. this guy Bowman like they they're. agnostic on whether or not like those. beings are real like they're just like. we're really interested in like the. culture and the psychology and the. experience of it. But she had this she.

she was like did her field work with. magicians and witches in England, you. know, like mo you know like modern. witches and not magicians like magic. tricks but like the old uh uh who's the. famous uh magician uh not Gandalf. >> Houdini. No, no, the British one uh. Merlin, right? >> Oh. >> Um but like old style, right? Like but. they were like so she didn't really. believe in it, but she would they were. like you have to practice witchcraft in. order to do this. And she had like. multiple anomalous experiences. one of. them that she woke up and there was five.

druids in her room beckoning to her and. people were like, "Is it a dream?" And. she's like, "No, I'm not. It's not a. dream." She had another instance where. they were trying to like conjure. energies to like turn off to like uh. turn shut down her watch and she felt a. huge energy surge through her and shut. off her watch. And her point is that she. thinks that the practice she think she. we put too much focus on the beliefs, but she says like the practices. themselves, I don't know if she would. say conjure. I also interviewed Diana. Pulka on it. They would say more like. reveal these different realities. So,

they're much more it's a very. interesting set of work because they're. not they're not trying to answer the. question of whether the druids were. really in her room or not. Um I mean the. watch thing, you know, apparently. definitely happened. But um. >> apparently definitely is a weird way to. [laughter]. >> apparently to her definitely. >> I know. But you know what I'm saying? It's like show me, man. Um the conjuring. thing is strange because that's a. reoccurring theme that you go outside.

and you have like uh these experiences. where you say I'm not afraid. Come show. show yourself to me and given enough. time with enough intention apparently. things will appear in the sky. My. favorite one is the the black guy. talking about Yahweh who where the the. local ABC newscaster goes out and it's. going to be one of those haha this guy. thinks that he can conjure UFOs and they. go out with him and he conjures an orb. Do you ever see that one? >> No. >> That's like an incredible that's like. one of my favorite where.

>> of those videos and the newscaster is. like uh he call literally they see him. calling his I think it's like an NBC. affiliate or an ABC affiliate somewhere. Jamie can probably find it. Um, but if. it's uh he literally calls his boss, the. newscaster is like, "Uh, the story has. turned out a little differently than I. thought." Um, it's like one of my. favorites. I'm sure you could say, "Oh, it's a balloon or whatever," but like. comes in and out. I mean, it's really. And it comes right as he's calling it. >> That's the weird thing is I've talked to. multiple people that have actually done. this. Oh, people it's. >> that have gone with these, you know, air.

quotes experts and they you go out to. some deserted area and you call these. things. >> There's a second guy, white guy that. also does it and Reuters did a whole. story on them because apparently there's. a whole bunch of people around that they. saw it. And of course, Jake Barber, who's this former, you know, uh, contractor, helicopter pilot, contractor. for special forces, announced that he. was going to go and, uh, conjure UFOs. and bring one down.

>> Here, they're just sitting right up. there. >> We met up with Prophet Yahweh, Seer of. Yahweh, at Dittle Park off Lake Me. We. picked the day, we picked the time, and. we picked the location. >> Everyone's going to think you're. absolutely nuts. Well, I thought I was. absolutely nuts. >> until he says he saw UFOs over the. years. 1,500 of them. >> Can we make it uh 1,5001 today? What do. you think? >> I'll try it. >> He says the voice in his head told him. to go public now. So, we took him up on. his offer and we scanned the skies.

Nothing but a few clouds. When the. prophet started praying for a sighting, I wasn't exactly convinced. >> I pray, oh Yahweh, that you send a. sighting so that they know that I am not. mentally ill. I am not a false prophet. [laughter] like those who seek to kill. me say I am. >> Oh, people are trying to kill him. >> Oh, brother. Look at it. There it is. >> You can barely see it. A white speck. Then another sighting. >> There it is. I got it. I got it. I got. it. I got it. >> Photojournalist Jonathan Hawkins locks.

in on it. Let's take a closer look here. It's an orange sphere that appeared out. of nowhere. I call the boss with an. unexpected change in my story. >> I'm tell I could see it clear as day. In. fact, it's bright. >> I can't believe this. >> It's It's moving pretty fast. >> It's going to Nellis Air Force Base. It. wants to be seen. >> We called Nellis to see what these. things might be. Guess what? They didn't. call us back, but this thing started. coming back toward us. >> Coming toward us now, I think. >> What? >> See, it's coming up toward us.

Whoa, man. Oh, hallelujah. [laughter]. >> Then a few seconds later, it. disappeared. It's going back up in. space. >> Prophet Yahweh isn't concerned. He says. it'll be back. >> I would take this more seriously if that. guy didn't have your reporter voice. >> It's amazing. This part of the charm of. it. >> I think it's um I love it because I. don't I don't think you can I don't. think it's going to convince any. skeptics, but it's like one of the few.

things in our in our world where it. inspires a set of like wonder and a set. of awe. And you know, for those of us. that struggle with our faith, um it's. inspiring because it is sort of a. spiritual like I mean he he calls. himself Yahweh, right? So there's like. didn't wasn't about like gray aliens or. whatever. It's just something else. And. that's what I mean about like why more. valet his work explains all of this much. better um and than the sort of the. extraterrestrial hypothesis did. And. he's had that since ' 68. >> Well, I think what he does best is not.

explain it. >> Yeah. you know, it's like there really. isn't an explanation, but here's what we. know. >> He calls it a control system, though. >> Yeah. >> Which is sort of like I asked Diana, I. was like, is that how is that different. from God? Um because he's of a control. system that is his his view is that. there's a control system that's evolving. human consciousness and it will manifest. different things or and that in in. relation with humans over time. And so. he looks at the you know the apparition. the Maria um or St. Mary apparitions in.

Spain and the airships of the late 19th. century where people saw these things. that look like the Zeppelin even though. they hadn't been invented yet. All of. these things he says his view is they're. sort of being sort of produced in some. relationship as well with our culture. That's Val's argument and that sounds a. lot like God in some ways when you say. control system, >> right? What does that mean? Like is it a. higher life form that is monitoring us. like that? That's the the the secular.

version of religion for a lot of these. people that are really interested in. aliens like that there's some advanced. being that's making sure we don't. everything up completely. >> Certainly for me that's my interest. I. mean I um like again this anthropologist. uh Lurman you know she says you know. William James is this famous Harvard. psychologist wrote a book about the. varieties of the religious experience in. 1902 and he says everybody wants to kind. of be like is it real or not real? is. like this world just what we see? And he. says, I think there's something more.

There's not. So this this very, you. know, skeptic or debunker thing which is. like, oh no, it's just got to be a that. thing's got to be a bird or it's a it's. like, well, but it really you haven't ex. just calling it that. And as they point. out, it's like they showed up when they. wanted to. I mean, it's a pretty amazing. if it's just a coincidence, it's a. really amazing one. And so I think for. me it's like because I am a Christian. and it is hard to believe in in an all. powerful and all good God because he. obviously allowed the Holocaust to occur. and allows terrible things to occur. But.

I love that that segment. And there's I. love there's another one I love right. now. It's like a British woman in the. 50s doing an interview about seeing a. what she calls a Mexican hat UFO over. her house. >> and the kids saw it and she and. everybody in the village made fun of her. and they ridiculed her and she's like. but it's you know but it's I saw it and. it was real and it was like it's like. those are like our those are spiritual. uh experiences I think. Um so I don't. know that like I want the files released. from the government. I'm also skeptical.

that it's going to tell us what it is. because I think. >> at some level we're not supposed to get. more much more information about what it. is. I think it's something else is going. on or maybe it's having a positive. effect. I think it's I think uh one of. the sometimes people get really mad at. UFO believers like skeptics get really. like angry like how do they they're so. you know whatever they get so mad and. I'm always like but like how often do. you see them causing real harm or. problems? I mean, we had one cult where. they, you know, like a few people killed. themselves, but for the most part, >> they cut their balls off first.

>> Yeah. Great. So, you know, UFO, like, for the most part, UFO people that are. interested in UFOs, um, are dreamy. seekers. They're spiritual. Um, and I. think it's, um, I I I think it's wrong. to I think it's lovely and and wonderful. and it reminds us of, you know, that. we're small on the one hand, we're. humble about our knowledge and there's. just surrounded by mystery. I mean your. so much of your career and this this. platform has been to allow us to talk. about things that are unexplained and. that or where the explanations don't. really seem to explain it. there's.

something more as as as William James. would say, there's something more. And I. think that the denial of anything more. This idea that oh, we know everything. and we know where the we don't know. anything. That's hubris. It's just. crazy. >> But that th those people are silly. They're more silly than the believers. because th this this idea that like look. if there is a if you have a completely. novel experience like say if you are. Commander David Fraver and you encounter. this tic-tac shaped object that's.

hovering over something that appears to. be a ship that's under the water. This. thing takes off at a absolutely. preposterous speed that is documented. both in radar and visually and on. camera. Right. So, they've got video of. this thing moving. They say that it went. from above 50,000 feet above sea level. to sea level in less than a second, which would require more energy than the. entire United States produces in a year. in order to get an object to move that.

quickly. And it does that with no heat. signature. Okay, if this is all true, just that alone, now imagine you have. this completely novel experience. And because I haven't had it and you. haven't had it and Jamie hasn't had it, well, it's very simple and easy to. dismiss it. But if this happened, what. do you what what do you expect the. person to do? What do you expect a. decorated pilot in the in the Navy? A.

guy who has a rockolid record who is. there's nothing about him that screams. that he's a cook or he's mentally ill. And when you talk to him, he's. incredibly meticulous, very intelligent, very disciplined. >> His in the fa his his face it it looks. like he had a spiritual experience. He's. a smile on his face. I went to the when. I was in Delhi, I went to the Jane. temple and I went to the Hindu temple. and I'm not Jane. I'm not Hindu. Um, but. I had a look on my face that reminded me.

that sort of. >> that sort of that sort of like that. starry eye, the look in your face where. you've experienced the wonder and the. awe of being alive and we're on this. planet and we don't really understand it. all, but it's beautiful and it's okay. And. >> I think that that's the spiritual I mean. that's where it's like he's been touched. by I don't you know I'm not imposing. this but he's sort of touched by God in. some way or been touched by something. and it's not. >> something extraordinary. >> Yeah. And the thing look I think the. other thing you read that environment. you're like that thing showed dominance.

>> in that environment. So on the one hand. it showed. >> dominance. >> you call it technological valet might. call it spiritual dominance you know. >> so but that's for me what's. >> what's special about it and I think it's. not going to go away and I don't think. we're going to get to the answer. I. don't think I don't think the government. how could the government you know I. don't think they know and I don't even. if they even if there was some contact I. don't know if that would really tell you. all the answers. >> well what I could imagine is that they. have.

acquired both eyewitness video radar all. all the various sensors data. and they've done this with multiple. instances of these things and they are. trying to assess what this is and they. have a longstanding study of these. things that. would both be disturbing and confusing. to a lot of people and disruptive to. society. I'm sure you're aware aware of.

how put off and what happened with him. during the Bush administration where. they brought him in and they essentially. told how put off now this is assuming. how's telling the truth and I have no. reason to think he's lying. They brought. him in and a bunch of other scientists. and and a bunch of other thinkers and. said, "I want you to create a chart. On. one side, list the positive aspects of. disclosure and the other side what are. the negative ramifications of. disclosure, government, religion, the.

finances, all all the different things. that could happen in the world." And the. negatives outweighed the positives. They. decided not to disclose. But the premise. that he was brought in with this was. saying we have acquired physical crafts. that are not of this world. We have. biological entities that are not of this. world and we are part of some sort of a. back engineering program. We want to. release this information. What would. happen if we did? And their conclusion.

was chaos. >> Trump Trump didn't seem to go through. that checklist to come up with the same. answer. >> I don't think he got that memo. [laughter] But also I do think. >> I think he doesn't I don't think he I. think he ignores the memos from experts. in general. So. >> right if he was in office and that was. the case and they came to him and you. know and someone like Tucker or someone. that's influential to him could sit down. with him and talk to him and he thought. it would gain their favor, he might just. release it. >> I mean it's wild because on the one hand. it looked like it was spontaneous but on. the other hand you know Laura Trump. who's like someone that's like a trusted.

family member who's like really. competent like they sent her in to like. take over the RNC and fix it and fire. all the people and get their get their. loyalists in there. She was out there. talking saying that, you know, oh, the. Trump is I was hearing a lot of noise, but it wasn't from people that I. trusted, so I didn't report anything on. it. But I was hearing a lot of noise, too, that the Trump administration was. considering doing something, but you. didn't know. I didn't know if it was. circular reporting. But I thought the. Laura Trump thing was interesting. because I don't think I don't see her as. sort of a she's not just speculating or. bullshitting. You know, she's a trusted, you know, kind of uh.

>> trusted source for that. So, she said. that and then Obama was asked about it. and then Trump made that announcement. So, I don't know what they have planned. You know, we were pushing on the. intelligence community privately to. release the stuff and it was going. nowhere. >> The Obama thing was nuts because the guy. didn't have any follow-up questions. >> That was that was part of what was. really weird about it. Also, they put it. in a speed round like. >> like it's like why would you put it in a. speed round, >> which is probably why he didn't have. follow-up questions if you think about. it that way. But, I mean, that's a just. a massive dropping of the ball. The guy.

says aliens are real. How do you know? How do you know is the next question, right? It's right there. How do you know. aliens are real? >> Well, yesterday, the day after then, he. said, "Oh, I just meant theoretically. and there's life in the universe and. stuff.". >> Well, why don't you ask that? So, he's. you catch him on the spot instead of. when it becomes this big viral moment. and then everybody's talking about it. and then he comes up with a rational. explanation for why he said that. >> Yeah. I mean, and and and he told Obama. told one of the late night hosts, I. can't remember if it was Kimmel or. Colbear or somebody, but he said they. said something like, "Tell us what you. know." And he said, "I you know, I can't.

tell you. There's things I can't tell. you." So, I mean, he obviously knows. more than he said, >> right? Otherwise, he would say there's. nothing. >> And then Trump said that he knows more. It was very interesting. You know, I. talked to Trump about it. He won't tell. you He kind of a lot of things. move around. I know some things. There's. a lot of. >> It's very crazy. >> But, you know, they said they weren't. going to release the Epstein files and. that came out. So, I just kind of go. now. I have a different I don't know if. you want to get into it, but I have a. slightly different view of Epstein than. than I think I did. Well, before we get.

into that, you know, Tucker's thoughts. on this whole UFO UAP thing, >> he thinks they're like angels and and. demons from the Bible. And he thinks. that they're they've always been here. And, you know, I'm I'm sure you're aware. of like the book of Enoch. The Book of. Enoch, which was one of the original. biblical texts. It wasn't included in. the cannon, but just because of a few. rabbis decided it didn't jive with the. Torah. and they found the book of Enoch. along with the book of Isaiah as a part.

of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And uh when. when you find out that there was a. biblical text that that was contemporary. to books that did make it into the Old. Testament and that they talk about the. watchers who come from above and and. mate with humans and create this race of. giant giants called the Nephilim who. destroy everything and consume. everything. And you're like, >> "What the is this?" Like what is. this? and and just stop and imagine if.

those rabbis hadn't excl like if that. hadn't been excluded like Wesley Hoff is. great talking about this stuff. He's a. real historian when it comes to you know. really understanding the the history of. these biblical texts and you know and. he's absolutely fascinated by it and. he's like yeah it's kind of crazy that. they just decided to not put that in the. Bible. Imagine if they did. And part of. when you're going to church and they you. they're going over the Old Testament. like, "Okay, this week we're going to go.

over the book of Enoch and we're going. to figure out who the Watchers are.". Like, what do you what is that? Like, what is that story? The crazy thing that. Wes Huff told me was that the book of. Isaiah that they found in the Dead Sea. Scroll predates the oldest version of. the book of Isaiah by more than a. thousand years. >> Wow. When they found it, they found out. that there was a book of Isaiah that is. a thousand years older than the one they. thought was the oldest one. And it is. verbatim. It's verbatim from the one.

that's a thousand years later. >> Wow. >> Which is kind of crazy. >> Wow. >> But then it's also in the same. caves as the book of Enoch. It's all. it's all together there in the Dead Sea. Scrolls. >> Amazing. I mean, we've had this we've. we've been fed this story that sort of. all of these religions and myths from. the past are all just false. They're all. just hallucinations, right? >> They're all just lies. >> I don't believe that. >> It's just really uh it's really arrogant.

actually. Like it's like, well, no, now. like we've been around for, you know, humans around for like millions of. years, but the last 150 years is like we. really figured it all out and we figured. out that all human knowledge before, >> you know, whatever some recent time. period is is nonsense. Yeah. I think. that's um quite arrogant. >> It's very arrogant. But I all look I'm a. believer that history is far older than. we think it is. I'm and I think the more. time goes on, the more that gets. revealed. So when you're talking about. something that's four or 5,000 years. old, I think really you're talking about.

a retelling of a far older story. And I. think there's it's very difficult when. you're dealing with people that don't. have an understanding of science. The. written language is fairly new. It's an. oral tradition for generations before. it's ever written down. So my question. with all this is always like, what were. they trying to talk about? What were. they trying to say? What was the. original experience that someone. documented in story and then that story.

was relayed over and over and over. again, generation after generation until. it's eventually written down and then. they study it and take it literally. And. then also translating it from Aramaic, which is the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient. Hebrew, all these different languages to. Latin and Greek and eventually English. Like, but what's the original story? Like, what is what are they trying to. document? What is this important. knowledge that they want to share? And.

how screwed up would that get over the. generations and generations of talking. about it? But what ultimate truth is in. there? Like I'm I'm absolutely. fascinated by the story of Jesus Christ. because if you wanted to come up with a. way that people would live that would. absolutely be far more beneficial than. just going on natural instincts and. tribal behavior and you would you would. follow Jesus's teachings. Like there's I.

can't find a flaw in the way he tells. you to live life. There's a lot of. religions that involve, you know, torturing non-believers and and and and. raping infidels and being able to do. terrible things to the people that don't. believe your religion. There's none of. that in Christianity. It's all. forgiveness. It's all treating your. brother as and your your your your. neighbor as if they're you. Like is it's. a beautiful way to live life. >> Are you Christian?

>> Well, I go to church and I I have been. for quite a while. >> Okay. I've I've been doing it for the. last three or four years, >> but that's not really an answer to the. question. >> Well, because I don't know. I I I think. it's very interesting and I do believe. that if you follow the teachings of. Jesus Christ, you will live a better. life. I really do believe that. And one. of the things I talk about is like the. people that I go to church with are the. most polite people I've ever met. in my life. They're so kind and so nice. and everybody lets you out of the. parking lot. Everybody's like, "You go,

[laughter] you go." It's like the one. like it works. You know what I'm saying? Like if people are trying to find an. idea, does that mean I believe people. came back from the dead? Does that mean. I believe Moses part of the Red Sea? >> Not really. No. It seems like that's. most likely a story where people are. telling it generation after generation. after generation, but there was probably. something happening. There's probably. some truth to it. Then we take you take. into account some of the stories from. the Old Testament like the book of. Ezekiel which I'm absolutely fascinated.

by book of Ezekiel and his account of. the wheel within a wheel and the the the. fire flashing forth continually and in. the midst of the fire as it were. gleaming metal. Like what what the hell. is that? Like what is that? Like what. are these stories? And in the midst of. the the the this gleaming metal there's. the the the likeness of four living. creatures. Like, okay, they darted to. and fro like the appearance of a flash. of lightning. Okay, what is that? Like, what are they what were they trying to.

say? And what was the original. experience that people documented that. was so important? >> And it might [clears throat] have been a. lot more similar to these UFO. experiences that. I think this is what one of the things. that Tucker goes back to. >> The the Christian story is so beautiful. and so important. you know, Renee. Gerard's view of of Christianity as. really stopping the cycle of. scapegoating. You know, scapegoating. where, and I'm seeing it right now as. part of the reason we've been pushing. back against the moral panic on Epstein, is that you scapegoat the thing, you.

know, traditionally it literally was a. goat, but you scapegoat the person or. whatever. >> Wait a minute. Originally was a goat. >> It really was a goat. Yeah, it was a. goat. Yeah. >> Really? >> And it would carry the sins of the. community. >> Oh, you sacrifice. I think you would. send it away to die or something. Oh, >> but over time it became. >> scapegoat was. >> Yeah. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. And then. >> so he's a goat. >> But generally. >> goats were the devil. Goats are. everything. Goats get a bad rap. >> Goats are in your lobby, aren't they? Or. those those are elk. No, in your lobby.

>> No, there's [laughter] big difference. >> Yeah. But I mean, so Christianity puts. an end to that. It says, uh, stop. scapegoating. I mean, they scapegoated. Jesus really. I mean, you kind of go. that you scapegoat the the way the. purpose of the scapegoating was to. >> was for this the community to unite the. community and and scapegoat to to put. all of its sins on one thing and then. kill it or get rid of it. And that was. the way the community would restore. unity. Christianity said, "No, >> we're not going to do it that way." Uh. that that's that's immoral. And so, you.

know, he with the, you know, without sin. should be the first to cast a stone. Jesus wasn't saying that prostitution. was good or anything. He was saying that. we should not be scapegoating. You know, you've got sins, too. So, don't. scapegoat this person. >> That's a really radical moment in human. history. And it really is what allowed. humans to spread. It creates a universal. I mean, Christianity is the first. universal. It's really universal. religion. Maybe it's not the only um but. it's a universal religion. It says. everybody, you know, is a child of God.

and it's and it's evangelical and it. wants other people to become Christian. That's very that's different from other. other religions where like this is my. god and I've got my own god here and. we're the best and you suck and. >> and they make it very difficult to join. >> Yeah. And it's not to say that. Christians, you know, obviously there. was, you know, fighting the Muslims and. there's some interesting uh revisionism. there, but. >> it's a beautiful religion. >> There's terrible things that have been. done under the guise of Christianity, but if you listen to the teachings of. Jesus Christ, they're not following his.

teachings. So it's like it's just human. behavior that they have tagged on to. Christianity. So when people say. Christianity is responsible for horrible. atrocities, I say no. I say humans are. because if you if it is actually. Christianity, you would be following the. teachings of Christ and there would be. none of those things. >> I mean anti-semitism is not Christian, >> right? [clears throat]. >> So. >> right, >> uh true Christianity is not that. So I I. think it's lovely and I I hope there's a. re revival of some of it. I'm not sure.

there is. >> I think there is more now than before. There's a lot of young people that are. getting into into Christianity that. >> I think it's good to I think it's also I. mean it's interesting with the U we're. talking about the UFO thing. It's an. awareness that there's a higher power. So one can sort of say look the UFO. thing it's not the same as Christianity. or whatever but this awareness that like. we're not like there's something else. going on. There's something more. There's something higher than us and. that we should be humble in front of in. the face of this just gigantic mystery. I think that puts us in a better. mentality.

>> It certainly does. And if if anything, if he's not the son of God, if this was. an actual historical figure, what an. insanely wise human being who didn't. have these thoughts that are inherent to. all of us of vengeance and lust and. greed. He's has none of these. >> So radical. Also, um you've heard it. said before that you should, you know, love your friends and and hate your. enemies. I say to you, you know, you. should love your enemies. I mean, that's. just Yeah, it's like the hardest.

>> I'm not there. I think very few people. are there. Uh, but it's certainly the. right aspiration, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's the right aspiration. And. Tucker thinks that this whole UFO thing. is somehow connected to the spiritual. realm and that we're. >> well because we we've been told for so. long that there is no spiritual realm, that spiritual realm is just a mental. illness, right? You know, it's like I. love it how he's like the Yahweh thing. He's like, >> "But the problem with the people that. tell you that are all mentally ill. They're all very unhappy." Like.

atheists, like secular, like hardcore. atheists are some of the most unhappy. depressed people I know. I don't see. like incredibly happy unless they do a. lot of mushrooms. And those people tend. to not be atheists anymore. That's the. one weird thing. People that have had. like intense breakthrough psychedelic. experiences, one of the first things. they go, maybe there is a god. like. maybe maybe I don't know what I'm. talking about because if I just. experience that and that's a real thing. that you could have while alive on earth. where you are confronted with divine.

wisdom and love in some weird strange. form. You know, when there's a lot of. people that believe that that's the. source of a lot of religious experiences. and instead of alienating and making. those things illegal, we should study. them and make them a part of the. religious experience because it's. probably what they were originally. >> Well, that's right. And so now that. people are having spiritual experiences. with UFOs, it's wonderful and they. should talk about them and kindle them. Um, I think the thing about psychedelics. that's so interesting is that um, at.

least my experience with them was that. you uh, become you don't become so. attached to your ideas and your beliefs, right? And so um, which is a big problem. in our society is people that get too. attached to their their egos get. attached to their beliefs as opposed to. like, oh, I thought that I mean I've. made I'm I'm I've made my whole career. out of being wrong about things [snorts]. and then correcting them. Um, but I. think it it's hard because you do it's. really. >> it's a great quality. >> It's Thank you. It's a very but it's. still I hate it. I hate being wrong.

It's totally natural to hate it. Um but. I do think like having a practice that. makes you go you are not your ex your. beliefs. There's something there. You. have an existence separate from the. things that you wrote on your blog or. you wrote on X and just don't be so. attached to them. >> Right. Don't make them your identity. >> Yeah. Um, and that uh it's it's it's. actually there's something really quite. there's an awful part of when you feel. like you got something wrong, but then. there's another part you're like, oh, it. feels good to get it right and you feel. clean. And that that's like that's what.

that's what we should be going for. But. it does require for me being humble. about my limitations before some higher. power is really important place to begin. because if you think there's no higher. power or that, the other one is like. souls. We don't talk about souls enough. Um, a a new friend of mine at the. university was talking about how. important it is to really to care for. your soul and to care about other. people's souls. It's one of the things. that Christianity is so good at, that. you have something divine inside of you. connected to something divine outside of.

you and that your behaviors affect its. treatment. And it, you know, when you. tell people that you're just, you know, a meat suit and you're just worm food. and your life doesn't matter and that. it's all just, you know, random and. pointless. That's a terrible story. It's a It makes. people feel terrible. Um, but when you. kind of go, "No, you there was one of. the most beautiful the I loved all the. Charlie Kirk videos that went out after. his death because there were so many. ones where he had these beautiful. moments." But he's talking to these. women that are doing the Only Fans. Did. you see that one?

>> Yeah. and they're describing they're. trying to shock him and saying just. really kind of crude things about their. sexuality and how like the sex they have. it doesn't matter to them and and he was. like I just don't believe that I think. you have a soul I think God has a. purpose for you what a much lovelier way. to engage somebody and it wasn't a he. didn't feel like he was morally. condemning them. >> right. >> he was actually saying God loves you and. so for me Christianity brings if that is. the part of Christianity that I think is. so special but it is hard I I mean, one.

of the things that this anthropologist. that I'm really into is talking about, she says it's it's the more the God, the. more different the God is from humans, the harder it is to believe in them. And. so, people like Christians in. particular, she would talk about there, even evangelical ones are always. complaining about not believing enough. and not having enough faith because it. is so hard because you do have the. Holocaust problem, the problem of evil. >> Why if the God is all powerful and all. good, is he allowing the Holocaust? >> Why do you allow Hiroshima? >> Why, you know, these terrible things. Um, and part of the answer for. Christians has been, well, because he. wants us to exercise free will and to to.

be in touch with our better sides and. and to realize our potential as as moral. uh moral humans and moral souls and and. that's a that's a pretty good answer. Um, but it is I I found I was glad to. hear that her say that people struggle. with it because I certainly do as well. >> Well, I I mean I think everyone. struggles with it. I'm just I'm really. fascinated by it. I'm I'm fascinated by. it because when I go to church and I. listen to them talk about various.

passages in the Bible, my mindset is. always like, what was the real. experience? Like what are we missing out. of these tales? What are we missing out. of these recounting of these. experiences? What what happened? I don't. think it was nothing. I really don't. I. think there's something real to it. And. >> and it again, it works. That's the. that's the main one for me. It's like. you want to live a better life. Like if. you live as a Christian, you'll have a. better life. You'll have a more.

lovefilled more wonderful life. That's. real. And that this idea that oh it's. fairy tales. I is it if it's a method for life that. gives you a more rich and loving and. peaceful life, isn't that better for. everybody? Isn't that a real thing? That's a real thing. It's there's no way. you can know whether or not any of the. stories in the Bible happened exactly as. described. We can't know. So, you have.

to have this leap of faith totally, >> you know, and it gets weird like Jesus. comes back on a white horse like, "Hey, [snorts] slow down." You know, like. Revelations, book of Revelations is. weird. But it's like what's really weird. is some of these people that think that. um what's going on in Iran is to light. the the fire to uh bring to have Jesus. return to light the signal fire. Like. did you hear those recountings by that. uh these non-commissioned officers that. went into these briefings, combat. briefings?

>> Oh no. >> You okay? >> Here's one of them because I saved it. because it's so kooky that I I read it. and I was like, "Wait, what the did. they say to him?" because it's it's so. crazy. >> I tend to be anti-apo my my knee-jerk is. anti-apocalyptic because I don't see. apocalyptic movements uh doing a lot of. good in the world. So. >> yeah, that's probably better off. >> Most of I think a lot of Christians have. ignored the book of revelations. Um I. yeah, I think focusing too heavily on. that particular book is probably leads.

to bad outcomes. >> Okay, so this was the story that I. wrote. This was in uh Yahoo. Well, I can. I'll send this to you, Jeremy, so you. can get this uh. so we can put this up on the board. Did. you find the thing? Okay. He urged us to. tell our troops that this was all part. of God's Now, this is the guy who goes. to this is a combat readiness. briefing. Urg us to tell our troops this. was all part of God's plan. And he. specifically referenced numerous. citations out of the book of Revelations. referring to Armageddon and the imminent. return of Jesus Christ. Uh he said that.

President Trump has been anointed by. Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran. to cause Armageddon and mark his return. to Earth. And he said that the guy was. saying this had a giant smile on his. face which made it all the weirder. Like. like see if you could find that in. there. Does it say that? >> No, it's not in that particular article. Oh, this is just military. Someone. complained about it. >> Oh yeah, a bunch of people complained. There's actually like a lawsuit. >> religious freedom law. You risk like the. whole self-fulfilling prophecy with that. one.

>> Well, [laughter] it's all just like what. are you doing? >> Wait a second. What are you doing? What. what machines? What What weapons do you. control? Uh. >> yeah, there's a lot of religious. cooks. So, it's not just And also that. is not how Jesus Christ would handle it. Let's go bomb Iran. That's how Jesus is. going to come back. Like, do you think. he would tell you that's the right way. to do it? Like, how did you interpret. the text? >> Jesus. Jesus. >> Like, how did you interpret that in the. text? Okay. Uh before we So, we're deep. into this show. So the Epstein stuff. >> All right. >> So what is your take on this? >> All right. Well, so I.

>> you've changed your position. >> Yeah, I've changed. I think I spent a. bunch of time with the Files. Um I will. say I think I did do a piece. Well, I do. think that the shrimp is a code word for. for young women. Um I'm pretty sure. about that. >> What do you think pizza is a code word. for? >> Well, that was Okay. So then I did a I. did I had I had read this article about. code words in the Epstein files and I. did the shrimps and then I had some. stuff about pizza and grape juice in. there about grape soda and my co-author. Alex was like dude you can't go if you. can't go full pizza gate you like you.

got [laughter] you got to like so we. kept it out and then the times mentioned. the pizza thing so I wrote some on X. about it but I ended up taking it down. because I was like I don't really know. this one I mean what we what weirded me. about the pizza one was where his. urologist was like take your erection. dysfunction pills and then we'll go out. and get pizza and grape soda. And I was. like that is creepy, you know, as hell. Uh yeah. So, but I I don't the shrimp. one I'm like 95% that means young women.

because you just see how they talk about. it. And I think I proved it in my piece. >> There's other ones like people were like. the jerky is like cannibalism and. whatever. It's like well it didn't help. that the restaurant owner was like the. restaurant's name was like cannibal and. something. Yeah. Uh but um I'm skeptical. that that's what that was. So. >> well, you would be skeptical unless you. were part of some of these. bizarre satanic rituals and then you. would go, "Oh my god, it's real." Like. there are Look, >> people have sacrificed people, right? Could we agree to that in in in human.

history? Sure. Of course. And there have. been satanic rituals throughout history. Can we agree to that? Sure. Okay. So. there has been cannibalism in history. We agree to that. Okay. >> Unfortunately, a lot. Actually, there. was a lot. Yeah. >> Why wouldn't we think they're talking. about that? We don't want to believe it, right? Is that what it is? We don't want. to believe that these people, these. multi-millionaires and billionaires that. go to this island and engage in all this. crazy aren't doing something like. child sacrifice or cannibalism. Well,

let's start with the let's start with. the thing that I think a lot of us. thought it was, which is that it was an. intelligence community. sex blackmail operation. That's what. made it for me a story. I mean, a creepy. guy doing creepy things. There's just. that's we call that a dog bites man. story. You know what makes it a man. bites dog story is like is that you kind. of go wow is like MSAD and CIA running a. honeypot. I mean that's the premise of. Whidley Webb's two volume book One. Nation under blackmail. Um but when you.

look at it like we don't see that. We. see we see one case where Epstein emails. himself something that sounds like it's. in the voice of the Bill Gates science. adviser Boris Carich I believe is the. name and in it they talk about oh you. know it's the famous email where he says. oh you know I got STDs it says you got. STDs from Russian hookers or from. Russian women and then you tried to slip. antibiotics or you wanted me to slip. antibiotics in Melinda's drink and.

Melinda like they asked her about it was. awful. Um, it doesn't like that's not. it's weird what that is. So, first of. all, it's not. >> Hold on a second. We're just talking. about emails, >> right? >> Right. So, who knows what was said? Just from the email, we know that there. at least implies that he's got dirt on. people and that he is exercising. is doing something with this dirt that. he has on Epstein or on Bill Gates.

rather. >> Yeah. Although. >> so we we're very limited in the amount. of data that we possess, right? Cuz we. just have emails between him and other. people. Inside those emails, we find a. lot of creepy We find that one. description where he was talking to this. woman where she said, "I'm doing a um. doing investigating a story about an. island where they bring children for. sex." And he goes, "She almost had a. heart attack when I told her that person. is me." Well, he was talking about the.

the rumors and gossip about him, but he. wasn't saying that he's bringing. children to his island for sex. >> But that is what he said. >> But if you look at the text, >> they're talking about me. >> No, no, no, no. She said, "I'm doing a. story on a guy who brings children to. his island for sex and he says she. almost had a heart attack when I told. her that person is me." the the person. that I my my charitable I'm not well but.

you're being charitable because that's. not what the text says. What the text. says is someone's bringing children to. an island. I told her that person was. me. >> Yeah. >> He didn't say I told her that's a. rumor. I let her know that's. not true. >> But that's very much in his style. I. mean look look, let's back up to the. intelligence. >> But wait a minute. Why would you why. would you pull it up and look at it? I. just think um I think what we see from. the files um and I think Mike Ben has. sort of pointed out the ways in which. Epstein might have been a contractor or. a financeier or somebody hiding money.

for the intelligence community. Beyond. that, I don't see any evidence that he. was doing much for the intelligence. community if at all after. >> But you're only getting emails and only. half of the emails, right? So there's. only 3 million emails that have been. released. there's another 3 million that. the FBI possesses that they're not. releasing, right? >> 100%. It's possible. >> So, we're making why would you draw any. conclusions based on only 50% of the. data and then if there is 50% of the.

data that hasn't been released, why is. that way worse? Because this stuff is. nuts. Like this this is nuts. Like take your erection pills so we can. go get grape soda. Okay. What? And. weird. This lady is investigating a. place where they an island where they. bring children for sex. I told her it. was me. What? >> Well, we should put that one up. I want. to look at that one. But I mean I think. I mean here you're talking about um. you're talking about So first of all, I. think the picture is of a guy that is.

fully in charge of his life and he's. doing he's like he is like amazing at. getting people to love him and care. about him. People call him their best. friend. in Florida. Clearly, he was. abusing girls and was, you know, busted. for that. I think he was doing that. because he's a pervert. Um, I don't. think I didn't see I don't see blackmail. coming out of that. And then you get to. later and you've got, okay, you've got. the Bill Gates thing, which doesn't even. appear to be from Epstein. It appears to.

be for Boris. And remember Boris, the. science adviser, wanted Gates to pay for. like a bigger apartment for him in New. York. It appeared to be part of him. threatening Gates to get something for. that Boris wanted. So maybe Abste was. advising him on it. But I mean to have a. the other thing I'm struck by these. emails, Joe, is that there are so many. different attorneys, people at the FBI, people in the Eastern District, the. Southern District, the Florida Southern. District, they would all have to be in. on it. And I'm skeptical because FBI.

>> Why would they all have to be in on it? >> Well, because they would they're in. these I mean they're in this they're. reviewing the information. They're. trying to bring, you know, they're. trying to bring action against them. We're like, >> well, it depends on who are the powerful. people that are implicated and what kind. of influence they have over what gets. released and what doesn't get released. Clearly, names were redacted that are. powerful people that are not victims. So, that shows you right there that. there's some influence. >> But there's a reason to do that. >> Why?

>> Because they're not guilty. >> Okay. What about the one where the guy. says where Epstein says, "I like the. torture video.". >> He probably did. I think they someone. did find the torture video. >> Why would you redact the name of the. person who sent you a torture video if. you're not trying to protect a powerful. person? >> Yeah, that's the sultan. Is that right? >> Okay. But that was someone had to figure. that out. >> I mean, look, the redactions are that's. No, no, no. That's evidence that you're. trying to protect a powerful person. >> Well, but they didn't though in a lot of.

cases. >> But they did right there. >> Yeah. I mean, the redactions I mean they. were making them. I mean, it was like a. lot of powerful people's names. >> Yeah. But I mean I mean look at like. we're in the midst I mean literally the. people that are being cancelled for this. like Peter Aia these people are like. victims of a of we're in the middle of a. complete you know uh you know moral. panic. I mean we're now it's like me too. version two. I mean people are having to. leave boards. I mean look these are. people I don't like. I'll just be. honest. Like part of me hesitated. because I don't like Larry Summers. I. don't like Bill Gates. Uh I don't care.

about Sarah Ferguson. Um you know I. didn't say anything. Then they came for. Peter Aia. [laughter] Um, you know, it's. a little bit like like Peter Tia like. like he didn't do anything wrong and he. just like lost his job with CBS and you. know he's sort of now they're under this. cloud and people go oh but he was in the. hospital and his wife was he was with. absent his wife was in the hospital. We. don't like what are we doing here? Like. we're getting involved in Peter Atia's. like personal life and so but he has to.

get fired for that. I mean it's gone way. too far. Sarah Ferguson had to step down. even though she you know she said ter. these people I don't like them like. these are not uh people I agree with or. think their behavior is but I don't see. >> so they're not guilty of crime. >> yeah they're not yeah they're not like. they were like they were all making a. big deal out of like well so first of. all let me just say I'm glad they. released the files. >> tighten that thing down you keep moving. that thing around it's every time you do. it it bumps you [laughter] gotick. um. >> I I uh I think like you know they were I.

mean I'm glad the files were released. There was definitely problems with the. redactions. There was also a case where. the members of Congress were trying to. get stuff redacted, names got redacted. of people that like I know in one case. there were people that were getting. licenses for guns that had nothing to do. with Epstein on a list. Another case. other people's names were revealed who. were not guilty of anything. So that's. why you you protect those people. I. think we you go everybody the logic. right now is that anybody who had any. interaction with Epstein had to have.

known of all the abuse he was doing and. are somehow responsible for it. I think. that's not right. >> Okay. But a lot of these people were. hanging out with him and doing business. with him after he was arrested. So this. is all. and it was very public. >> Okay. But okay. So then so then what is. our view of people that do the crime and. serve the time? I mean the left the left. view has been stop right there. He. didn't serve any time. Do you know he. served he served a year? >> Okay. He did not go to jail for a year. You know, he did house arrest. It was a. very sweetheart deal. And the prosecute.

was it the prosecuting attorney or. whoever it was was told that he was. intelligence and this is why they were. giving. >> that was that was by the way that I. looked into that. >> Yeah, that we looked into that one and. that was um heard secondhand. >> Oh, >> so we don't even that wasn't even heard. from Aosta directly. Someone said that. they heard Aosta say that and they told. the Vicky Warden and I believe her. source is anonymous. Yeah. >> So that's weak. And you know Mike I mean. when Mike Benz was in here and Mike has. done a deep dive of this. He's sort of. like look at best you get Epstein tied.

up with intelligence with the Iran. Contra stuff. >> but he wasn't I mean there's two things. to see here with his relationship with. the intelligence community. He was at. best a contractor fian which means he's. not an important player in deciding. covert clandestine operations. Um it was. the it's you know the head of state. >> He said he killed cold fusion. I mean, >> he said P he he killed Pawns his his. work on Cold Fusion. >> I mean, uh I don't know. Did Did he I. mean, I Cold Fusion, they keep doing it, right? They keep.

>> No, they haven't done it yet. >> Well, I know Carl Paige, the founder, the the brother of. >> But he stated that he killed Cold Fusion. Research. >> because he cut off funding for it. >> Yeah, he But there was. >> manipulated people. >> I don't know that. >> Well, I mean, >> you say he killed it. Why would he kill. it? >> Because it didn't work. Or maybe it did. work and it's problematic that it does. work because it kills all these people. that have all this other money in. various energy modalities. >> I just I mean I go fusion is like a. whole I mean the idea that we have a. secret that we've secretly tapped cold.

fusion and are hiding it for some reason. >> or that he was on the way to breaking. through to cold fusion and then they. killed all of his research. >> or but why. >> you don't think that could be because. there's so many people that have money. and all these other types of energy. I. just don't buy that you could first of. all that technology is super difficult. to get nuclear fision was this enormous. undertaking huge numbers of people the. coal fusion the coal fusion stuff was. always the coal fusion stuff is really. fringe I mean it was like we're going to.

be in the lab and doing co you know. >> but you're not a physicist so how do you. know that. >> well I mean I interview a lot of. physicists and talk about it I mean the. big fusion projects are incredibly. difficult they keep announcing advances. in them they can't get them cold fusion. is not even considered a mainstream. fusion project. So to assume that. there's some secret I just think this is. why I have a problem with the whole. reverse engineering thing is I just kind. of go you'd have to have so many people. working on it and covering up for such a. long time. I don't know how you get away. with that. >> Well, what if he was on the verge of a.

breakthrough, but this guy steps in and. stops funding and puts some leverage on. the university. Clearly he had dirt on a. bunch of people that were at high levels. of many universities. That's why a bunch. of these guys had to step down. >> Didn't the head of Harvard step down? >> I think it's exaggerated. >> Didn't the head of Harvard step down. >> uh because of him? >> Wasn't there a connection between. Jeffrey Epstein? >> Well, I mean, Larry Summers, you mean? Or Yeah. >> Well, Larry Summers was, you know, he. had to step down because he made those. remarks about women as president and.

then he just he just had to step down as. professor. And I say this, look, I say. this genuinely as someone that is not a. Larry Summers fan. I don't think I think. it's ugly what he did. It's terrible. He. was trying to get advice from Larry. Summers about how to bed a Chinese. economist and they were gross in their. emails and it's terrible. But I don't. think that you lose a job at Harvard. over that. I don't think that Peter Tia. should lose his job at CBS over that. We've got that's me too. >> I understand and I agree. I I I see what. you're saying. But what I'm saying is. clearly he had influence over some very.

high and powerful people. >> He he also exaggerated his influence. like he took a lot of credit for Santa. Fe Institute which was a lot of other. people. I mean he was really I mean he's. really interesting and smart like he he. gave a thing to you know Bannon talking. to Bannon about it that was really. interesting but he was also um Steve. Pinker talked about him as a kabitzer. like a kind of a bullshitter. Um, and he. was like, we also saw in the files, I. think it really overlooked. We saw how. he made his money. Like he he needed to. get the Roth he needed to get a deal.

with the Department of Justice for his. client Ariana de Rothschild. He hires. Katherine Rumler, who was Obama's White. House chief counsel. And she goes and. makes a deal at the Department of. Justice, $45 million fine for the. Rothschilds, 10 million for Kathy Rum. Katherine Rumler, 25 million for Jeffrey. Epstein. Everyone's like, "Where did his. money come from?" uh doing deals like. that like you realize I mean one of the. things you succession actually had a. little little subplot about it like. there's a few people in the world that. do these crazy highlevel deals like.

often like mergers and acquisitions that. have these obscene fees because they're. taking some tiny percentage. Epstein was. operating I think the thing we didn't. realize is that when you read the files. is the levels at which Epstein was. operating. I mean, his his social and. emotional intelligence is just off the. charts, which is often rare among. somebody that's that good analytically, someone that really understands like. investments in the economy to be. So, I. mean, he was a master manipulator. So, I. don't think it's um I don't think it's.

fair to to say to people you had an. association with him after he's commit. after he's convicted of this crime. Rich. guys, look, we have a totally separate. system of justice for rich people. I. think we've known that for a really long. time. It's terrible. I I condemn it. We. should find solutions to it. That's what. Epstein used to get out of it. I don't. see any evidence that intelligence. helped him. You know, we got other. problems. The victims, Virginia Jaffrey, she claimed that she claimed that she. had sex with Durowitz. She then goes, "Oh, I was wrong about that." I mean,

there's a lot of those victim. testimonials that are untrustworthy. So, you get yourself in a situation. where you start to put like. >> some of them are probably prostitutes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's the. other one is we I did some reporting. where we uh helped to we we found a. 14-year-old girl who was being. trafficked on the streets. She turned 15. in the process of us reporting on it. Um. you know, we're covering these PIs that. get the police involved. The police go. get her. You know, she's orphaned. She. goes back to live with her aunt. She's.

back on the street voluntarily back on. the street. Nobody wants to talk about. it. It's like it's like you go rescue. people and they're in that world. So. these situations are much more complex. than um I think the final thing on. Epstein that kind of made me question is. that I like a lot of other people had. assumed that someone murdered him. But. you start looking at the evidence for. that look maybe there more will come out. and even this last round last few days. there's some new things that people. point to but they actually are not. actually evidence of it. They said, you.

know, Epstein's brother's attorney or. Epstein's brother's uh examiner said. that uh that he broke his hyoid bone and. the hyoid bone bone is not usually. broken in in hangings only in. strangulations. Actually, it is broken. in hangings particularly for older. people. >> Broken in three places. >> Yeah. And that I mean and that's like. >> and it's low on his neck. >> Yeah. And they and that happens. >> Also, the lady who was the guard. deposited money into her account. >> I saw that. But that doesn't What does. that mean? >> Okay. Well, she also googled his name. before he got.

>> all that's totally. >> okay. Let me Why are you dismissing I. don't understand why you're dismissing. this because if you're going to dismiss. it I'm saying but hold on you are but. hold on you are because if you do have a. guard and all a sudden this guard. acquires several payments. She she made. several deposits. One of them was $5,000. just 10 days before he died. And then. the cameras are cut. Okay. And then they. mysteriously don't pay attention to the. cell of one of the most important. defendants of any case, any gigantic.

public case involving. enormously famous public figures. >> and then this guy hangs himself while. he's on suicide watch. >> Remember he tried to commit suicide. >> I understand, but why are you not. letting me finish what I'm saying? Because that alone is weird. >> That alone is weird that the cameras are. cut. That there's no video of it. >> The whole thing is weird. You don't. think it's weird? >> Well, I think. >> you don't think it's weird that this guy. that he just finds a way to hang himself. in this cage.

>> I thought I had that same story. I was. like, the cameras are cut. The security. guards are asleep. All those things are. true. All those things are true. Um, it's also true that the cameras went out. a long time before that night. It didn't. just go out that night before. Security. guards fall asleep at night all the. time. Um, he. attempted suicide, I believe, 18 days. before. 18 days before he said that his. roommate tried to kill him. Did you know. that? Do you know his roommate was a cop. that had killed four people in contract. killings? His his cop roommate, his uh.

cellmate was a murderer. He was a guy. who was a drugdeing cop who had killed. four people in contract killings. And. that was his jailmate. And 18. days before he said that guy tried to. kill him. That's his. >> Is there any Look at that guy. That is. his cellmate. Why would you put. a guy who's one of the most high-profile. defendants in any case ever in a cell. with a hired killer who's a giant. gorilla like this huge jacked.

Italian guy, >> but he wasn't in the cell with him that. night. He was by himself. >> He was the guy who 18 days before. Epstein said tried to kill him. >> But Epstein tried to kill himself. I. don't think there's any doubt about. that. Right. I don't know if there's I. don't I've never seen him say it, but I. do know that he said that guy tried to. kill him and they found him unresponsive. 18 days before. He said that guy tried. to kill him. That guy was trying to get. money. >> Couldn't he have lied about that?

>> Video outside sale during Jeffrey. Epstein's first suicide attempt no. longer exists. How weird. Yeah. Why. would he lie about that? He's in je. saying this guy's trying to extort him. Yeah, >> he's already saying this guy is trying. to get money from him and this guy is a. known killer. He's killed four people in. contract killings. >> How did you not know about that? >> I will say it's possible. >> Hold on. How did you not know about. that? >> I did know about that. >> You knew about the guy being a contract. killer soulmate? >> Yeah, I knew I knew that story, but I.

mean he didn't have a soulmate at the. night of his of his death, right? He. that was one of the mistakes they made. is that because he was on supposed to be. on suicide watch, he was supposed to. have a soulmate. Didn't have a soulmate. I think that look. >> I don't know but 18 days before he did. have a cellmate and 18 days before he. said that guy tried to kill him. >> but 18 days before he tried to commit. suicide. That's my understanding. >> I don't know if that's true though. I. don't know if that's true. I don't know. why they would put him in jail with a. contract killer. >> Well, I mean how many who who's in that. jail? Aren't the people in that jail. pretty rough? >> His cellmate is a contract killer. Why.

would he be in a cell with a cop who's a. contract killer? I mean, aren't there a. lot of uh. >> The night Jeffrey Epste claimed his. cellmate tried to kill him, new. documents reveal Jeffrey Epstein claimed. his cellmate tried to kill him in an. incident before his death. >> Yeah, but we don't. >> Okay, but we don't know if that's true. >> Yeah. >> Why are you dismissing it though? >> I'm not dismissing it, Joe. Look, maybe. more evidence will come out. I'm just. saying like if you look at the evidence. to dismiss it. >> No, I'm saying I was confident it was a.

homicide and now. >> Were you aware of this? >> Yeah, of course. All that stuff. You. were aware that he tried to kill? >> Of course. Of course. >> You aware that he never aware that he. said that? >> Well, how come you never brought it up. before? You You seemed shocked when I. brought it up. >> Well, because because my understanding. is it was a suicide attempt 18 days. before. >> But if he said this guy tried to kill. him 8 days 18 days before, why didn't. you take that into consideration? >> No, it is. I mean, I'm just saying that. was that was when it doesn't seem like. you took it into consideration at all. and you're looking to dismiss it.

>> I didn't. No, I I my view earlier was. that it was a homicide because the hyoid. bone bone doesn't break when you uh have. hangings. Um he said he didn't want to. commit suicide. The video went out. The. the security guards are asleep. I mean, this was a hu there was a huge. investigation of this by the inspector. general. So, the number of people that. would have had to been involved in this. conspiracy and cover up is very large. and it's a large number of people who. are in this job for to be dogooders. And. so I'm very I mean that's look maybe.

there will so maybe there was some. evidence they're not in the job to be. sometimes they're in the job to be. dogooders. Sometimes they're influenced. by very powerful figures that want a. particular result. >> Does that not happen but we hold on a. second. Does that not happen in the real. world? It does. Right? And wouldn't you. imagine if you're dealing with multiple. billionaires that may be compromised by. the evidence that this guy's going to. relay in a trial that that would be one. of the times that they would want to. exert that kind of influence.

>> It's possible. And like I in our piece. we wrote it's possible, but I think at. this point we don't know. I don't think. we have the evidence either way. And and. that's for me that's the change. I went. from I think it was a homicide to now I. don't know. I didn't understand that he. committed suicide 18 days before. >> No, no, no. He didn't commit suicide. We. should check. His cellmate tried to kill. him 18 days before. That's. >> That's what he said, right? >> They found him unresponsive. He said, "My cellmate tried to kill me.".

>> Yeah, but how do we know that? Why would. we think? >> And then was it reported that it was an. attempted suicide to try to dismiss the. fact that his cellmate was trying to. kill him because they wanted his. cellmate to kill him? We don't know. But. but you can't dismiss that. >> The psychologists thought he was. suicidal. They, you know, I think my. understanding, he could have lied about. the room. He didn't want to have a. roommate. Um, that's like why and they. didn't have a roommate. >> He didn't want to have a roommate who's. a contract killer, who's a. sociopathic cop who killed four guys.

>> But if you're if you're a contract. killer and you're in Epstein's um cell, why would you want Epste to die in your. cell? >> Because you want to kill him because. people are going to give you like extra. cigarettes at the commissary. Do we have. any evidence? Who knows? No, but. who knows? Is a guy who already. kills people and he's in jail forever. He's going to be in jail forever. >> So for that guy, you say, "Will you kill. that guy for me?" Like that it's not. even much of a stretch. >> It's not much of a stretch that Epstein. would have killed himself. >> It's not much of a stretch that that guy.

killed him either if that if he's. telling the truth that there was a. report 18 days before that that guy. tried to kill him. >> We just don't know. I mean, that's. >> We certainly don't know. But I don't. understand why you would want to make. the conclusion that he tried to kill. himself and that this guy who's a. contract killer was not actually trying. to kill him when he said he was 18 days. before. >> Well, Joe, I mean, I don't please don't. misrepresent. I'm saying I don't know. And that the change for me is going from. really looking like a homicide to really. not knowing because there's some. evidence that I had not considered.

before then. >> Right. You know, the guy who did the. autopsy was the guy from that autopsy. show on HBO who his name is Michael. Baden and he was famous for. >> the official autopsy. >> No, no, no. The one his brother. authorized because he did an autopsy. though. He was a medical examiner. >> He's a medical examiner. >> He's also famous for He's also paid. >> Site conducted a post suicide watch. report. Ebstein denied suicidality. >> uh and stated I have no interest in. killing myself and that it would be. crazy to take his life. Although though.

he was depressed and unhappy about his. current legal situation, he was told he. will remain on psychological observation. in the near term. >> He said look and you see even there he. says he says he didn't recall he got the. marks on his neck. So he didn't blame. that on. >> but no no no that's that's here but then. the other details from the other report. said that he complained that the guy. tried to kill himself that the his. cellmate rather tried to kill him. >> Can you go back go back? Okay, we can. find that again. But I I. >> I don't think But Joe, I think that I.

don't think that you've got it. I don't. think you've got it. I don't think. you've got the I don't think you've I. don't think we've nailed the the case. that it was a homicide at all. >> Well, I'm not saying that. I know. >> Yeah, but I'm saying. >> Okay. So, then we agree we don't know. >> Yes. But you're dismissing these major. factors of him being a cell with a. contract killer, him saying 18 days. before the guy tried to kill him, then. finding him unresponsive that someone. tried to strangle him 18 days before. >> Yeah. But I mean there's just this you. can make a case either way is my point. You can make the case that he was he was. murdered. You make.

>> you certainly can. But at a certain. point in time when enough circumstantial. evidence that's weird like the. cameras being down, the guards being. asleep, >> but the cameras were down. I think I. don't want to don't quote me on exactly, but they weren't down like that day. before or something. They were down for. a while before. And the security guards. fall asleep all the time. >> What did you find uh about him, the the. roommate trying to kill him? Oh, I mean. this is the this is like their report of. it. I was trying to find his, but this. is in this uh report right here. He was. found in the fetal position.

laying on the floor snoring. >> Epstein told officers that Tag Leone. cellmate had tried to kill him and that. had been harassing him. Tag Leone. claimed he had been asleep and woke up. to see Ebste with a string around his. neck. Right. >> Does that make sense? >> Well, actually, but Joe, just to so. >> he says the guy tried to kill him. And. if Epstein but so and the result of this. is that Epstein doesn't have a cellmate, right? So Epstein doesn't want to have a. if you want to kill yourself, you don't. want a cellmate.

>> So you can interpret the same set of you. can interpret the same amount of facts. >> If you want to go got a guy to go back. and finish the job, you shut the cameras. off and you open the cell and you let. this guy kill him. >> But they shut the cameras off. When they. shut the cameras off though, >> it doesn't matter. There's no matter. because they video even the video that's. there has been edited. the one video. they show of the outside of the cell, a. minute's missing from it. There's a lot. of weird to it, man. >> I agree. But it's not the where you. should arrive on it. In my view, where. the facts lead you is that we don't. know. And so that's that's a difference.

for me than just saying. >> that's safe. We don't know. But it is. kind of weird that he's in a. cell with a contract killer. Kind of. weird that he made a complaint. that the contract killer tried to kill. him 18 days before. >> Not if you're trying to get. >> So, did they remove that guy from his. cell? Is that what happened? >> He did. Yeah, he's by himself obviously. the night he killed himself or or was. killed. >> um or was killed. Um find the Did you. find the email where he's talking about. um the.

lady on the island where she's saying. that we brought children to an that. someone brought children to an island? >> Remember he's faced with life in prison. >> He loved his decadent hedonistic life. >> There's plenty of motivations for him to. kill himself rather than live in prison. the rest of his life. >> Right. And remember recent like I think. it was like a day or two before he lost. his bail appeal. So he thought he'd get. on bail. He didn't even get on bail. He's going to be stuck there. >> Mhm. >> Um the the psychologist didn't believe. him. She thought he was suicidal and and.

so the the argu So one way you interpret. it is that they messed up. They they did. a bad job. They they should have they. should have known that he was suicidal. and they should have had a roommate. there. They the guards should not have. fallen asleep. They should have fixed. the video camera. I just can't imagine. you're such a high-profile defendant and. you're not watching him like a. hawk. >> I would imagine that a guy like that. would be in protective custody with, you. know, no shoelaces, no no way to. hang himself. >> I think you overestimate our prison. system. >> I would think that you would do your.

very best in this case to make sure that. this guy is watched. They didn't. They. bring him to. >> I mean, they didn't they they should. have had a roommate in his cell and they. didn't. >> Well, they put him in a cell. with a killer. So it seems a little bit. more than that. >> But that when you say it that way, you. make it sound like the killer was in the. cell the night he was killed. >> I make it sound like this killer was in. the cell with him when he says the. killer tried to kill him, >> right? But or he. isn't that a little weird? >> Why didn't the guy do it then? Why. didn't it work? >> Well, he probably choked him unconscious. and thought he was dead and he survived.

They found him unresponsive. >> Or he tried to kill himself and then. when they said, "Why did you try to kill. himself?" He blames it on the roommate. so he doesn't have to have a roommate. anymore. >> It's possible. Yeah. >> So, find that um email where he says. that it's him. >> I'm trying to I don't have access to the. files right now. That the thing I was. using is gone. >> Yeah, >> it's gone. >> Uh Ian Carol's app was really good and. [laughter] it is they've taken it down. because they're going to make it public. now. It was only in beta. >> Jmail Jmail's.

>> I know. I was digging through that too. and that's I've got so many tabs. open. You guys have moved around. >> So, if you kind of go So, for me, if I. go if I go we don't know if it was a. homicide or suicide. Um the intelligence. community work was appears to be of a. long time ago and he was a contractor. >> Mhm. >> We don't have any other evidence of a. sex blackmail operation other than that. email. Now there is one other thing that. I thought was one so one uh for the uh. the theory that he's a black mailer is. that he put he's like we have emails of.

him putting cameras in Kleenex boxes, hidden cameras and Kleenex boxes with. motion detectors. Was that in order to. engage in a blackmail operation. >> or was it just a. >> to blackmail people? >> Okay. Your friend uh told me about the. projects he's doing researching a really. bad guy who gets children for sex sent. to his island. She almost fainted when I. told her that person is me. [snorts]. That seems pretty clear.

>> I think No, no. I think he's saying that. she's writing a story. it it was about. him, but I don't think he's admitting. that he's bringing children to his. island for sex. >> I don't know about you, but if I was. sending an email and I was talking about. someone, researching someone who's. sending children to an island for sex, I. would also include that I let her know. that that was. >> Well, she ends up coming and and meeting. with them, right? You've seen the. follow-up to this? >> No. So she ends up coming to meeting. with her and I don't know if he like.

gives her money or something or funds. her but it's like. >> yeah I mean. >> thing is that like without justifying I. mean I think that after 2008 there's not. I don't think there's any evidence and I. could be wrong there's not a lot of. evidence that anybody underage came to. you know that Epstein uh you know abused. anybody under 18. And I'm not defending. abusing women over 18, but it that did. seem like a pretty big change. >> Epstein associate found dead in Paris. prison. So.

>> after he said he was going to flip. >> Oh, shocker. Weird. Maybe he got sad, too. >> Well, maybe. >> he's one of the co-conspirators also. >> I mean, people kill themselves a lot. You know, psychopaths also kill. themselves a lot. >> Also, people get people killed because. they're going to flip. >> It's possible. And it's just uh it's. just we would just need evidence for it. >> Yeah. So. >> this is really if you're going to kill. somebody, you should probably make it so. that there's not a lot of evidence, >> right? >> Yeah. >> How did you find him dead? >> Did he kill himself? >> He hung hung in a cell.

>> Oh, hung himself. >> A lot of sheets in there. >> Hunged himself. >> Hanged himself. >> Yeah. >> However you want to word it. >> So then it's like So then the theory. would be what? That Bill Gates hired a. contract killer or who did it then? I. mean, >> who knows? >> Yeah. >> Well, who knows what who knew what about. what and when. I don't think it's the I. don't think it's the intelligence. community because we're not seeing I. just we're not I mean Mike came in here. and you guys talked for a long time and. Mike's not suggesting. >> well there's no evidence that it was.

>> I mean we don't have like clearcut he. did this and they killed these guys. because of that. We don't have that. right. >> Yeah. >> So I mean. >> but we also don't have three million. files. >> We also like the thing is that we don't. he doesn't need blackmail to make money. Well, he also doesn't need blackmail in. order to be able to get people to do. things and influence them. And if you. have video of people people and. doing things they're not supposed to be. doing and you're giving them drugs and. you got them on this island for these.

wild parties, they're more inclined to. do things that would do stuff for you. I. mean, it's poss I mean, I'll tell you, I. mean, FBI confiscated a lot of films and. videos. They had that. I was always very. suspicious of that. The fact that he's. talking about hidden cameras and motion, it's very bad. >> Well, that was the narrative before that. there was thousands of arrows uh hours. rather of horrible videos. Yeah. Right. So, it's possible that there was now I. don't know that I would be um. >> visitors describe a bathroom reminiscent. of James Bond movies hidden beneath a.

stairway lined with lead to provide. shelter from attack and supplied with. closed circuit television screens and a. telephone both concealed in a cabinet. behind the sink, wrote the Times. The. townhouse now reportedly owned by. Wexner's even more mysterious protege. Jeffrey Epste 2003. So, >> yeah. So, this is even before his. arrest. Yeah. >> Yeah. And also the the other part of it, think of it this way. Remember when Jeff. Bezos was blackmailed. >> and he was just like. >> Yes. >> He was like, I'm just going to. >> Well, that was just love letters to.

Lawrence Sanchez. >> They were pretty racy. >> Yeah. But I mean, it was still it was. private personal things where he was. sending them to a woman he loved. >> It shows the risks of engaging in. blackmail. And so, >> but that turned out to be. [clears throat] a dummy. That was like. someone's brother, right? So, but. Epstein I mean in other words if you use. it like if you actually like use your. blackmail I I think it's very hard then. to maintain your reputation as somebody. now maybe it was sort of hovering never.

articulated he was attracting people I. mean what's so striking about it is he's. attracting people to him he's got all. this Bonami oh come hang out with Chsky. and Ahood Barack and um and all these. people it's like a really good time. >> you know I think then being like oh I. have blackmail material on you need to. do it I mean he's getting people to do. what he wants them to do for money, >> you know, for for feeling like good. vibes, being in on some Israeli peace. talks. I don't then see him going around. and maybe look again, like I totally.

confess, maybe I I just haven't seen the. evidence then that he's going around. being like, "Oh, I have black moment on. you. You have to do what I want." He got. Clinton. He probably got. >> Why do you think he's filming everybody. then? >> That is He could be a pervert. I mean, there's plenty of evidence of. perversion, right? Um, oh, the ranch. Investigators have finally look into. Jeffrey Epstein's New Mexico ranch. Federal authorities apparently never. searched the property, but now state. authorities will reopen a 2019. investigation. About time, New Mexico.

>> That's great. It's great. >> Someone on Twitter had a or X has a very. long I was reading it earlier and got. bored, but it's very long about the the. link with the lottery and. >> Oh, yeah. How they won the lottery. >> Weird. Weird. >> Wait till that if that's accurate. Weird. >> It's weird. I agree. That one's crazy. >> I mean, Mike also points out that he was. leased this incredible mansion in New. York by the State Department, but then. the State Department like sued him. So, it's, you know, like he if he was like. really. >> Did Less Wexner give him a house in. Manhattan?

>> And then the Well, didn't that didn't. the big house that was the this was a. previous mansion that. >> people giving him man? >> What about that thing I told you about? Someone found that the person who. notorized that $10 transfer of the house. conveniently filmed like the best 911. footage. [snorts]. >> and that those are the 3 million like. the the timing of those missing files is. right around the 20019. time period. >> Yeah. I mean we I think that what the. files are important is that we saw he's. able to make his money as a highlevel.

fixer. We saw people were really into. him. People loved him. He was magnetic. He's able to get people to do things. that he wants. >> without using that as a tool. And we're. not seeing I just don't see where I. don't think we're seeing any signs or. footprints or any of that of engaging in. blackmail. We have the. >> We don't have half of the files. >> Yeah. >> We what we have is weird. The the grape. soda, the shrimp, the pizza references, the jerky, all that stuff's weird. This.

this lady saying that there's an island. where a bad guy is bringing children for. sex. She almost fainted when I said that. person's me. All this stuff is kind of. Would you admit it's kind of. >> The shrimps one they're definitely. talking about they're objectifying women. >> children for sex. Don't you think that's. kind of. >> I think it's I think that he was I mean. my interpret I mean one interpretation. of it is that yeah he's freely admitting. on an email that he's trafficking. children. I find that difficult to. believe that you would put that I mean.

if you're gonna say that oh he doesn't. put the blackmail stuff in email but. he's gonna put in an email that he's. bringing children to the island. I mean. I think he's being sarcastic there. >> I think he's saying oh that guy is me. Like that's what they say about me. >> Why wouldn't you elaborate and say I. mean if you're saying the person sending. it to the person he sends it to knows. that it's not true. >> That's why I mean that I think that. person works for him right Masha. Is. that one of the women that he had? >> I don't know. >> I I just I don't think that's him saying.

I'm. >> Maybe. >> Yeah, >> maybe. All right. Uh, we got to wrap. this up. Anything else? Want to. >> I got one. I got Someone gave me a a. video. I thought I I can share it with. you guys. What? >> A UFO video. >> Oh, okay. >> Wait, do we I thought we make it a. tradition to end every sesh with a Can I. send it to Jamie or drop? >> You could airdrop it. >> All right. >> Is it compelling? more compelling than. Yahweh's video. [laughter]. >> You didn't like the Yahweh video? That. was kind of interesting. It's He's fun.

>> Is it compelling? All right, let me uh. You guys will decide. Or no, here. I. sent it to. >> Oh, can I ask you something? Yeah. >> I was curious about. >> what. >> um Oh, I was going to say, you know, Elon, >> you think you think Elon knows more than. he's let on about UAPs? >> Yes. >> How is How do you know that? >> Well, because he works with NASA, if he knows some, he knows something. Also, some people have told me that he. knows some things. >> But don't you ask him privately? >> He don't tell me. >> Okay. >> I got a big mouth. >> I uh I asked somebody that was high up.

in his operation. >> Yeah. >> Uh we were we were on [snorts] the. record, but I won't reveal who they are, what they said. >> What' they say? >> And they go I said, "You guys must be I. was like at SpaceX, you guys must just. like have to don't you have to edit out. like UFOs that you get, you know, and. the person just looked at me and they. just said Elon's really close with the. federal government?" Like that was all. they said. >> Good. All right, [laughter] let's play. this. I don't know. Doesn't look like. much. >> What am I looking at? >> This is her. This is her video in here.

I think she shows I think she zooms in. >> I don't know what we're looking at. >> It's here in Texas. >> What are you looking at? >> What are you looking at, lady? >> Okay. It's like most UFO videos. It's just a. dot. >> Wait. No. Let it Let it just 30 seconds, guys. Okay. >> Tripping out right now. >> It looks like. >> she's tripping. >> It looks like it's um. >> you know her. Is she your friend? She's.

my friend. >> Is that. >> Is she intoxicated? >> No. No, she's not. And this is like a. not far from here. It's somewhere in. Texas. >> I think she zooms in at the end. >> No. >> Well, we still got 10 seconds for it to. get good. that is. Oh. my god. What? Oh, she doesn't. I thought. she had a when she once she showed me, she zoomed in on it. It was much better. [sighs]. >> Disappointing. [laughter] Okay, >> we probably should have looked cut out.

>> All right, let's wrap it up. Thank you, sir. Appreciate. >> for having me. All right, bye everybody. [music].