Joe Rogan Experience #2462 - Aaron Siri

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> So, you had a pile [music] of notes and. then you just folded them up. Like, did. you commit them to memory? >> No, just these two things. I have the. links I sent you guys. >> Oh, okay. >> And just some stuff that. >> I just saw the pieces of paper that you. folded. I was like, what's in there? That's just [laughter]. how did first of all I want to I want to. talk you through like when you were a.

younger man before you had looked into. this. What was your opinions on medical. science? What was your opinions on. vaccines? Were you skeptical or did you. just kind of assume that everything that. we're told is exactly how it is and the. experts have only the best interests of. human beings in mind and not not money? >> I had what you would effectively call. the mainstream view. Vaccines saved. humanity. >> Me too. we'd all be dead without him. >> Um, you know, there are the uh there was. the Bible given at to Moses at Sinai and.

then there were vaccines. >> Yeah, >> that's basically, you know, >> I think it's anybody that didn't. consider themselves a fool. >> You know, if you you would you'd have to. be a fool, like a real fool to ignore. all this medical science, which is the. reason why there's so many people alive. today that would have died. And a lot of. that's true. Look penicell and. antibiotics. There's a lot of stuff that. has saved a lot of people's lives. Um, but the vaccine one until this COVID. epidemic, I would have never questioned. it. I mocked antivaxers. I was like,

"These people are silly. Don't they know. all the good things that vaccines have. done?" And the just the blatant. propaganda that we were forcefed like. one of those ducks are trying to make. fogwa with, >> it just made me stop and pause and go, "Is the whole thing like this? Is this. whole thing just a dirty money. laundering operation? Because it kind of seems like that's at. least part of the reason why they were. telling people to get boosted when they.

knew it wasn't working and and telling. young people that didn't needed to. They. wanted to make a lot of money. That's. the only reason why you would do any of. those things after a certain amount of. information is out. And so it just made. me stop and think about the whole thing. and go well why would I assume that this. is the one area where pharmaceutical. drug companies do doctor everybody's. been totally honest in this one area. when it's like a religious thing if you. question it and what that's the why I.

love the title of your book. >> Yes vaccines. Amen. The religion of. vaccines. >> You it's that's what it is. It's a. religion for secular intelligent people. with a higher education. And it causes incredible cognitive. dissonance for anybody out there to come. to the conclusion. that the CDC and the FDA and our public. health authorities and what the entire. medical establishment has been telling. you may not be accurate about vaccines.

because like what you just said. the claim that you're a flatearther. you're an antiaxer. >> desert and not they're used as a way to. say you are really out there and dumb. >> They're completely equal in their. impact. >> And so it takes incredible cognitive. dissonance to say there are real. problems with vaccines. But vaccines really sit in their own. little universe. They're unlike any.

other medical product. They're not like. penicellin. They're not like any other. drugs. They're not like any other. product out there, any other product in. this room, anything out there. for one. major reason. Every other product that exists, I can sue the company. I can hold them. accountable. if that product injures or kills you or. your child on the basis that product. could have made safer. The only product,

and I mean this literally, the only product in America. where you cannot sue to say had you made. that product safer, my child wouldn't be. dead, my child wouldn't be seriously. injured, they wouldn't have a. neurological disorder, they wouldn't. have immunological disorder, they. wouldn't have a nervous system disorder, they wouldn't have a cardiac cardiac. issue. Our childhood vaccines and child. vaccines used by adults, it's the only. one. And that's because of a law called. the National Childhood Vaccine Injury.

Act of 1986. It gave pharma companies that incredibly. special immunity. Now, just to put that. into context, okay, and and I and I'll. tie this back in a second as to how we. ended up with this notion of uh this. belief religion in vaccines because, you. know, give an industry 40 years of. unopposed ability to influence, they're. going to get pretty dang far. And they. did with vaccines. And so um you know.

a lot of industries. face a crossroads where their products. are causing more harm than good. Gas. tanks used to explode. What did they do? They had a better gas tank. All right. Building materials had asbestous caused. cancer. What do they do? They make a. better building materials. All right. Did they give them immunity? No, of. course not. But in the instance of vaccines leading. up to 1986, there were only three.

routine vaccines. That's it. That's all. there was. A child following the CDC. schedule in 1986 got three injections on. or before their first birthday. Okay? Those three products were causing so. much harm and injury. that every manufacturer of them went out. of business. And that was the MMR. vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine. every single one from six down to one or. for the pure tesus vaccine six down to. one for measles about three downs one.

for polio and with one company left for. each instead of forcing them to do what. every other industry has to do like I. said make better building materials. without asbestous make better cars that. don't explode go down the chain of. different products out there Congress. did something completely unique it said. you know what. we're just going to give you immunity. we're going to make it so that no. company, excuse me, no individual, no. parent, no child can sue you for the.

injuries and deaths caused by your. vaccine products. That is what the. National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. 1986 did. And not only for those three. products, but for any other childhood. vaccine thereafter. And what that. effectively has done is given 40 years. for the industry to promote their. products, no push back. When you read. about a problem with a car, where are. you reading about it from? usually a. class action lawsuit in the paper, right? Not going to read about that in. vaccines typically. And because of that, you ended up where we are. Anyways,

there's a lot more detail to that, but. I'll stop there for now. >> No, please keep going. >> Well, I mean, when you think about um what makes. product safer, right, because I've got a. I've got a law firm with overund. individuals. I'm the managing partner of. the firm. Half my firm does all types of. plate decide class actions. We can hold. companies accountable for almost. anything. Your data, we do hundreds of data breach. cases, genetic privacy cases, do. biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds.

all types of of of lawsuits like that. nature. By the way, and New York Times. loves those lawsuits, by the way. That. stuff nobody attacks me for. Okay. Oh, making making my privacy better. Oh, protecting me from cars that explode. Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer. You. want to kill everybody. Okay. That's. where that but that's where it's really. weird. >> But well, here's here's where I think I can make. I'm hoping I can make it make sense. without causing cognitive dissonance.

So, going back to how we make products. safer in America or anywhere, okay, it's. not the government. Governments don't. make products safer. Look at extremely. authoritarian regimes where there was. very little free market like the former. USSR. You think products were safe? No. What makes products safe? It's the. economic self-interest of the company. It's the economic interest of the. company to make the product safer. Why?

You probably own stock, right? And where. do you want your stock to go? Up or. down? How do you want it to go? You want. it to go up or you want to go down? Where do you want it to go? >> Up. >> You want it to go up. Okay. So do all. the investors, >> right? So does everybody who owns that. stock. So does Wall Street. So does the. CEO. So does the board. So does. everybody. The people have the stock. Everybody involved. All the employees. that have stock options, including. usually the major ones, everybody wants. it to go up. If you lose money, it. doesn't go up. So normally.

the interest to asssure a product is. safer is aligned with the profit motive. because if your product causes injury. and harm then you're going to lose. money. So you want to know typically you. have an economic self-interest as a. corporation to know not because you're. altruistic, not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because. you have that economic self-interest to. asssure the product is safe before you. go to market and after you go to market. Okay? And that exists for every product.

in America with effectively one. exception, vaccines. That's really it. Now. I'm going to show you one result of that. in practice. Okay. Uh. uh. when you think of drugs and and this. will help I think tie into what you were. saying about what happened with COVID um. most drugs are licensed based on. multi-year placebo control trials. Most of them. Why? Because the FDA.

requires it? Because the FDA is so. great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA. It's because the company wants to know. whether the drug is safe or not before. it goes to market. Because you know what. happens with the drug that they put out. that's going to make 40 billion in. revenue or 20 billion but causes a h. 100red billion in harm? They end upside. down. So they want to know to a. reasonable degree how safe the drug is. before it goes to market.

In an attempt not to cherrypick, as I. did in my book, I found an article that. listed the top four selling profitable. drugs by Fizer as of like 2020 21 or. something, 2019. Okay? And if you look. at those four most profitable drugs, as. I put in my book, each one has two to. seven years of followup in the clinical. trial that was relied upon to license. that drug against a placebo control. group. Just to make sure everybody I'm. sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets.

something inert. So this way you you. give a group the experimental drug, you. give a group the placebo, something. inert. You track them for multiple years. and then you compare. all the outcomes, cardiovascular. outcomes, neurological outcomes, immun. go down the list and cancer rates and. you see the difference. You get a real. actual sense of the safety between those. two. for that product. In contrast, for most childhood vaccines,

instead of years, it's often days or. weeks of safety review in the clinical. trial relied upon to license them. Not a single, and I know that. folks contest this all the time, but. it's in the FDA literature. Not a single routine injected childhood. vaccine was licensed based on a placebo. control trial, say for the COVID. vaccine, by the way, for children. It's. the only one. Not a single one. Okay.

Um, nor. was the vaccine sometimes used as the. control. itself. licensed based on a placebo control. trial, nor anywhere down that chain. Chapter 10 of my book, I go through. every vaccine. I go through I have it. all cited to the FDA lensure documents. You can listen to the talking heads or. you can rely on the primary sources from. the FDA which is why I call my book. vaccines amen because there is what they.

tell you and then there's what the. actual evidence shows right so um that. gives you an example the outcome of not. having an economic self-interest with. drugs they have it so they want to know. the safety. >> can I um challenge you on that what. about vio. >> like the vio people knew that there. there was one of the things that was. revealed during the trial is that they. knew that there was going to be issues, but they the I think the quote was, "We. we still think we'll do well." And that. was one of the damning aspects of the.

email uh disclosure because you got a. chance to see how these guys talk about. this drug that they're about to release. I think they wound up paying a. percentage. of the amount of money they made from. the drug, but they made way more from. the drug. >> than they did the fine. No, I I. appreciate that challenge and it's why I. said when I I was saying that they do. the analysis of whether they're going to. have a hundred billion in loss or 40. billion in revenue. I'm not saying they. won't put out a drug that causes harm.

>> You're saying cause too much harm. >> Exactly. >> Okay. >> They can't they don't want to end up. upside down. And remember, the whole. reason a drug is licensed is because. harm. The crazy thing about the Vio one. is I think it killed somewhere north of. 50,000 people. and they still made profit off of it. which is kind of bananas. They pulled it. and and made billions in profit. This is the the darker aspect of this.

If you were talking about companies that. never did anything wrong, it had the. highest moral and ethical standards and. they were the ones because it's not. about money. It's about saving people's. health and it's about public safety and. we got to make sure we do this right. We. got to make sure we squash all the. disinformation. But that's not what. you're talking about. You're talking. about these companies that have been. fined billions billions of dollars in. criminal fines for fraud for all kinds.

of These are the people and the. the idea that they wouldn't lie about. vaccines. Like this is the one thing. that they're going to tell you the. truth. Ruthless capitalist attached to. money and drugs. This is the one thing. they're going to 100% tell you the truth. about. That seems kind of kooky. That's. a that's a that's a hard cell for. anybody who's not ideologically. captured. That's a hard cell. >> Yeah. But I don't I don't think you need. to go down the road that there's some. kind of evil nefariousness there. It's. not it's a broken economic and.

regulatory system from my perspective. It's just a completely broken econom to. your point about Vio, right? >> So in Vio it caused incredible amount of. harm but they still. decided that the benefits raised the. risk. Do do you know the story about the. the the cars that used to explode? It's. the classic case we learned in law. school and the the gas tank and and the. you know these cars. Was it a Pinto? >> It was the Pintos. That's right. >> Yeah. and and a number of them explode. every year burning the people inside.

them alive to death. Right. Horrible way. to go. And and uh there was a lawsuit. and in that lawsuit what they discovered. was the company had done an internal. calculation in which it it it did the. math. What's it going to cost to. actually fix all the gas tanks? what's. that dollar number versus what's it. going to cost to just pay out for those. deaths every year for those people that. we burn knowingly are going to die and. burn to death in those cars. And the. calculation was that it was going to. cost less to pay out for the deaths. And.

that is what the internal document. showed. And that, by the way, is in part. the case, the quintessential case you. learn in law school for why they have. punitive damages. because the punitive. damages were there to force the company. to conform its conduct in exactly that. scenario where the economics weren't. going to do it right even in something. that horrible when the market forces. weren't sufficient the economic.

self-interest wasn't there you had to. make it happen how through punitive. damages I know there's a lot of you know. news about punitive damages oh it's. excessive and so forth but that's what. they're there for they're there for that. scenario. We're we're just holding them. accountable. Now, go back to vaccines. Think about how incredibly harmful and. how much harm these vaccines must do. that they cannot survive on the market. without this immunity from 1986. Think.

about that. >> If you were going to steal me on the. argument against that, >> yes. Wouldn't you say, look, these are. we can't have frivolous lawsuits against. these people that are providing us the. most important medication that's. available to humans. The the whole. reason why we survive smallox and polio. and all these different things. It's. these vaccines. Without them, we'd all. be dead. This episode is brought to you. by Montana Knife Company. I have used. their knives for years. They are. absolutely fantastic. The company was.

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an amazing knife. Montana knife company. Working knives for working people. >> Uh let's just assume that the last part. of what you said is true, which we know. it's not. But w with that said, >> steel man. >> Let's steel manning it. Easy response. Okay. >> Okay. [clears throat]. >> Drugs. drugs that are for very small. populations, meaning not a lot of. market, not a lot of sales, that cause. incredible side effects can survive on.

the market profitably. Think about that. for a second. Why? Okay, here's why. It's a little bit of legal stuff, but. it's not that hard. It's not that bad. Okay, the primary claim you would. typically bring against a product is the. claim that it could have been made. safer. It's called a design defect. claim. It's a claim where I say, "Hey, had you put in a two cent stopper on. that gas tank, it wouldn't have. exploded. If you could have put in a one.

penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd. have my finger." Okay. Design defect. claim. The claim you could have made a. product safer. It is the primary claim. you would bring for a product. Okay? Injury claim. So, how do you protect against it? You. make the product as technologically safe. as possible, right? So, if you have a. drug that causes incredible side effects. that we just talked about, make the drug. as safe as possible, make sure the there. are no contaminants, make sure that you.

use the best possible ingredients, make. sure the combination, right, the the the. safest adgivant, go down the road. That's that's number one. Number two, the second most uh the second way you. you hold them accountable is you bring a. claim called a failure to warrant claim. I failed to warn you about the harm that. the drug could have caused. Okay? And so. what do you have to do there to protect. yourself? The company has to disclose. all the potential harms. If it has it. right there in the package insert and. you get it and it says, "Hey, it can.

cause this, this, this, this, this." You. were told, you chose to still take the. product. They made it as safe as. technologically feasible. They disclose. the risks and that is how companies. typically limit their liability with. medical products with drug products. Okay? Why can't they do that with. vaccines? Why can't they just make them. as safe as technologically feasible? Can't sue for design defect and disclose. all the actual risks in the package. insert. Okay. The logical conclusion is. and I and one other point to that and I. and then I'll I'll respond to your steel. man. Okay. And it's this.

>> All right. >> It's been 40 years for some of these. vaccines. have B vaccine, for example, licensed in ' 86 and 89, the two. standalones. It's been 40 years. You're. telling me they still don't know it's. safe enough to lift that immunity. You're giving it to millions of kids a. year. You're making billions of dollars. on the sales of this product, and you. still don't know it's safe enough to. lift that immunity, please. >> Um, okay. If I was a silly person, >> okay, >> I would probably say these vaccines are. more important than any medication. that's ever existed because they are the.

reason why we are here. because that's. how we survived smallox and polio and. the measles and everything else. >> And without them we would have perished. Uh we would have never achieved the. technological states that we're at. because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would have gone through mass plagues. >> Okay, I'll respond to that. >> So, so because of that, it's just. important that they stay they stay in. business. >> Well, a few things. >> And we trust the science. You should. trust the science.

>> Trust the science. Yes. Believe. >> Aaron. Trust the science. Yes, sir. >> Uh [laughter]. uh. Amen. Amen. Yeah. I try not to do too much believing. and I try to do a little bit of, you. know, evidence-based thinking. But any. event, look, when it comes to these. products, uh I save my beliefs for. religion, the unanswerables. Uh where do. we go when we die, right? And so forth. I have to take a leap of faith and I do. it when I need to. But you don't need to. with these products. Okay. on on on the. first part of what you said f first of. all there are products probably that are.

far more important to humanity at the. moment no question about it than. vaccines even assuming it had the. results that you just claimed which I'll. address in a second imagine you you said. you look cars are essential I mean cars. you can't get an ambulance you can't get. to the hospital without cars you can't. get to work you can't get your kids to. school I mean it's essential to a. functioning society so let's give cars. immediate liability intuitively you'd. say that's ridiculous. >> right. >> on the death's point that is one of the. myths that is one of the mythologies.

around vaccines that has developed over. time. This notion that everybody in. America die without vaccines. Um in. chapter seven of my book and I lay it. out for every single disease and what I. do there is I say okay how many deaths. were there in America the year before. the vaccine was first introduced or. widely or or widely used or so forth. Okay, in any real degree. And what you. find is if you go down the list, there.

were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe. a thousand or so deaths from each. disease for which we vaccinate. The. further back in time you go, the larger. the number in that dozens to a thousand. or so deaths. Okay? For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they. say everybody will die from. No measles. vaccine, we're all going to die, right? That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died. of measles in the years before there was. measles vaccine in the United States? How many? >> About 400 a year?

>> That's it. >> That's it. 400 a year died in the United. States at a time when everybody had. measles, which comes out to about 1. in450,000. Americans dying of measles. That's in. the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's. like, "Come on, that's not true." CDC. mortality documents on the CDC website. cited in my book. 400. And don't about. 50,000 people every year die from the. flu? Well, that statistic is uh um. includes.

bacterial. uh deaths that they say are potentially. the result from having influenza. But. >> so your immune system gets weakened and. then something else hits you. >> and that kills you. Is that the idea. behind it? It. >> Well, that's just the way they gather. the data is the way I'll put it. But uh. um with influenza, well, let me let me if I can finish up. with the measles because I think this is. important on the measles one and I can. deal with influenza as well. >> But on the measles one, just to really.

because you're saying, well, everybody. would die without these. >> I don't think people think of influenza, by the way. They think of measles, >> right? >> They think of uh those diseases, right? I don't ever hear anybody say to me, well, everybody will die of influenza. without influenza vaccines. Everybody, it's available. everybody can get it. Uh. the mortality hasn't changed much. In. fact, if you look at the mortality of. influenza before influenza vaccines were. widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay. Anyway, putting that aside for a. moment. >> Not only that, isn't there data that.

shows that if you get it, you're more. likely to get other colds. Yeah, I have. a whole um um giant footnote in my book. about this and I I actually tweeted this. out and did a substit about this. A. whole series of articles, studies that show that those that have. had the influenza vaccines. maybe these studies often reflect have. around the same rate of influenza. Maybe. they have less respiratory influenza. infections, but they many studies show.

they have multiple times the rate of. other respiratory infections. So, good. job. Maybe you've reduced your risk of. influenza by this much, but you've. increased your risk of another different. respiratory disease by that much. >> How much is it that how much of the. increase? >> Depends on the study. Some studies show. four times risk, some studies show three. times risk. Yeah. I mean, literally. three, four, I mean, huge percentages. So, and they're statistically. significant in these studies and so you. know when you're looking at a now these. are all retrospective epidemiological.

studies and but when you do a. retrospective epi study which means you. take existing data and then you study it. versus saying okay we're going to do a. study and follow people going forward. okay um if you find like a 1.3 time. which means 30% increased risk like that. that's a public finding this is three. 400% increased risk yes in many of these. studies. It's inconvenient data, so. obviously it's not talked about, >> right? Um so 400 people is not a whole.

lot. I'm I'm sure I mean it's sad when. 400 people die. But um it's also one of. those diseases that um when you're a. child, it's much more survivable, right, than adult it's rough, isn't it? >> Yeah. So measles uh the ideal age to get. it is not when you're an infant which in. the prevaccine era infants typically did. not get measles because they got. maternal immunity from the mother and. and you don't want to get it as an adult. because it is more likely to cause.

problems which again in the prevaccine. era wasn't a problem because everybody. virtually got it as a child and. >> Right. >> Yeah. And when you got it as a child, um, my recollection of it was the. episode of the Brady Bunch. Do you. remember? >> Yeah. >> Remember that episode? >> Yeah. Laughing about it. >> Let's watch this. Find that clip and. let's watch it because it's so. indicative of what measles was actually. like in the culture of the people that.

would get it all the time versus this. boogeyman of today. >> I mean, it is it's so stark. It's so I. mean it's like imagine the kid coming. home. Hey mom, I've got AIDS. I got to. stay home from school. It's not that, right? It's. >> it's the way that most folks who've had. chickenpox. Think of chickenpox, >> right? Um but we're told that it's. killing people and we're told that it's. killing people now. We're told that it's. killing It's always kids. We're told. it's killing kids now. >> And um look, if anybody dies from. measles, I'm very sad. But I want to.

know, is it with measles? remember the. with COVID or from COVID like what kind. of condition were these people in before. this hit hit them. >> because some I mean that was the thing. about CO it's like yeah it's fatal if. you have four plus coorbidities. that's it's more you're more likely to. be fatal and that was most of the people. that wind up dying from it right that's. almost certainly the case and I can I. can add another data point to that to. help support that which is that between.

1900 and this is again CDC data. Between 1900 and the late 1950s, early. 1960s, the mortality from measles. declined in the United States by over. 98%. >> You know what didn't cause that? >> Vaccines. >> Yeah. Because it didn't exist. I know. So, >> but but so immunity had become a a herd. thing just like co-ish right now. >> Well, everybody basically has had CO or. at least has been exposed to it by now.

Yeah. >> Here it is. Watch. >> Yeah. It's a whole episode. There's. multiple clips. I don't know which one. is, but here's one. >> Just Just let's just try. I think it's. He finds out he's coming over. Put on. your headphones for a second so we could. hear this, >> Aaron. >> Oh, Grab your headphones. >> Thank you. >> No. Are you sure it's the measles? [music]. >> Well, he certainly got all the symptoms. A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and. a great big smile. >> A great big smile. >> No school for a few days. >> You've got measles. Golly, mothers are.

supposed to know everything, but do you. have to keep proving it? >> Well, you got a temperature, too. >> What do you mean, too? >> Well, Peter was sent home from school a. little while ago. >> Oh, what was his temperature? >> 101.1. >> Oh, is that all? I'm 101.2. >> Oh, Greg, you want my railroad? >> I'll be a sport. You can ride on it. free. >> Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter. Finally, >> they're having a measles party. >> Missed it. Yep.

Boy, this is the life, isn't it? >> Yeah. If you have to get sick, sure. can't beat the measles. >> That's right. No medicine inside or out. Like shots. I mean, >> don't even mention shots. Yeah. >> Okay. I mean, am I crazy or or or have. we gone through the one of the wildest. gaslightings of anything ever? There's. there's people out there that because of. the things that you said so far about. the measles will be 100% freaking out on. Twitter.

Right. But this is this is a window into. how the American public thought I know. it's a television show. I know it's a. sitcom, but you can't joke around about. stuff that other people wouldn't think. is funny. >> Yeah. >> Every people would think that was funny. These kids saying, "If you're going to. get sick, you should get the measles.". And everybody at home be like, "Oh, I. wish I had a day off.". >> Well, that's how they thought of it. >> Yeah. And to put hard data on it, going. back to that statistic, over 98%. reduction. Remember, it's not like.

COVID, Joe, because CO there was no. immunity in the population. Right. >> Right. >> Measles has been around for forever, as. far as we know, thousands of years. The. year 1900 wasn't the beginning of her. immunity. 1900, measles already endemic. Everybody. was getting measles. So every year. there's a few million people cohort that. were getting it and you had this decline. and so you have to ask yourself what was. the decline. Um it was probably better. sanitation, better acute medical care. I.

mean um all kinds of things. And you. know who could take credit for most of. that stuff? Better sanitation, uh a. better living conditions, better uh you. name it? Probably public health. authorities. meaning the improvement in. acute care, the introduction of. antibiotics, better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you. name it, >> right? >> Probably had a massive contributor to. that reduction, but they never point to. that. >> And there's one other really.

inconvenient data point with measles, and this is really where it gets. upsetting for folks out there who you. were just saying are going to watch the. show, and it's this. that over 98% reduction in mortality. There's no reason that that curve was. not going to continue because pockets of. the United States in the late 50 early. 60s were like a developing country. In a. developing country, kids are going to. die of any infectious disease because of. extremely poor living conditions. And as. those improved, most likely that 400. deaths also would have continued to.

decline. 4.2 million births in the. United States in the late 50s, early. 60s, about 3.8 million births today. So. in fact, there's less children being. born in America today than there was. then. So you have a you have a smaller. cohort of babies young children to. infect. And final data point and it's. this and this is really uh I know this. is this is going to cause cognissance. for some but. studies that have looked at those that.

have had measles. versus those that don't find that those. that have had measles have a. statistically significant greater. reduction in deaths from cardiovascular. disease and various cancers. So, I'll. give you an example. There's a 20 year. 22-year prospective study in Japan done. by funded by the government of Japan and. major universities that tracked a. 100,000 people in Japan for 22 years. And it found that those that had measles.

and mumps had a 20% statistically. significant decline in deaths from. cardiovascular disease. Think about that. for a second. Just think about that. About 800,000 Americans die of. cardiovascular disease. If eliminating. measles and MS has increased. cardiovascular deaths in the United. States by even 1% on a life years lost. basis, you are still way upside down on your. public health benefit by eliminating. measles. >> Can I ask you what the speculation is.

how that could be? Why why would measles. and mumps infection at an early age. improve your your health. cardiovascularly? Why would it also. those that have not had measles have a. 66% increased rate of Hodkin non-hodkins. lymphoma and 266% increased rate of. Hodkins lymphoma which kills 20,000. people a year? Why would women that have. had measles have 50% less ovarian cancer. which kills a lot of women every year? Um what is it about it? Maybe and here's.

the thing. Um I'm you know and you can. have evolutionary biologists talk about. this as well. You've had some on. Think. about it this way. Pathogens have come. and gone throughout the ages. Right. >> Right. >> This one didn't. Measles, mums, reubella, chickenpox. They didn't. It. could be. Maybe. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying this is what the data. appears to reflect. What I just told you. about with cardiovascular disease and. cancer. They're all in PubMed. They're. all PubMed studies. They're all in the. published literature and they're all.

consistent having the findings that I. just described. Okay? I I'm just a. lawyer. I'm just repeating to the data. reflex. Um, it could be that having. those furbal childhood infections. conferred a survival advantage overall. and it could be the reason they never. actually went away over time became less. obviously pathogenic. >> So it has like a hermetic effect and it. makes you physically stronger somehow or. another. It makes your immune system. stronger, your cardiovascular like a a. stress test.

that I mean it's not outside the realm. of possibility, right? I mean, if wh. lifting weights makes you stronger and. you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it make sense that some form of. infection that you recover from will. make you more resilient? >> It does make sense. Um, it just like no. one wants to say to, hey, you should go. get measles. >> Look, theoretic world, >> yeah, theory of relativity is not. intuitive. Why is it as you approach a. more massive object or approach the. speed of light, does time relatively. slow down? I don't know if it makes.

sense or not. It's just what when you. put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on. the ground, one in the plane, you fly it. around the earth. They're not ticking. the same. So there it is, right? >> I it. >> you can't pretend that's. >> that is what it is. It doesn't have to. make sense to be true. That's a good. point. >> That's just what it is. And I'm just. saying what the studies show. Um very. inconvenient. A lot of cognissance. there. But it could very well be that. our whole this whole program, not only. do we So going back to your whole going. all the way back to your point, you're. like, well, they'll say me vaccines are. so important. We got to give them this.

immunity. No. In fact, quite the. opposite. Our babies are so precious, are so important. We want to make sure. we have the safest possible product you. couldn't have. And the way to do that is. to make sure the companies have an. economic interest to make sure they're. as safe as possible. I I agree with you. entirely, but if if I was questioning. anything, I would say, okay, if we don't. have genetic immunity anymore because. our parents didn't have it, because our.

parents are vaccinated against measles, um wouldn't it be better to keep. vaccinating people rather than let a. whole bunch of people with no immunity. to measles get it, particularly like. older people? >> So, this is a really important point. actually. I I I I agree with you in the. here's here. Well, I can stop before we. get going. When in when they mandated. vaccines or when they started giving. them to people was what in like the. early 60s I believe. >> for measles vaccines. >> 63. Did a lot of people resist it? Was.

it back then were the hippies opting. out? Were there is there like a group. that you could follow and track that. never got it never got the vaccine while. everybody else did? >> Um has to be right. I'm sure there's a. group out there you can identify. I mean. the Amish. >> There you go. Right. So, you know, who. we we represent right now, cuz New. York's trying to. >> basically kick them out of New York for. not vaccinating. >> That's crazy. >> We just won we just um in the US Supreme. Court uh we were just successful in.

vacating the lower court decisions just. a few weeks ago. >> Do you remember when Kathy Hochel was. talking about the vaccines like they're. a gift from God? >> She believes it. >> Did you? But do you remember how she was. saying it? It's like in any other. business, if you were running a. pharmaceutical drug business, if you. running if you were running a Chevy and. you're making a new Corvette and you. started talking about how this Corvette. is a gift from God, everybody go, "Oh, Kathy's cracked." Yeah. >> Like, what are you talking about? It's a. bunch of engineers. We put together a. great car. Like, what are you? It's a.

gift from God. What? >> People don't say I believe in tables or. I believe in chairs. I believe in TVs. and I believe in wallpaper. But they. say, "I believe in vaccines all the time. because it carries a tourism.". >> But do they work? Like does the measles. vaccine prevent people from getting. measles or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it. a completely. >> So answering that and your prior. question at the same time? >> Sorry. >> No, no, no. Don't be. >> I'm very scattered. No [laughter]. is is that is that uh um is that the.

measles vaccine measles MMR vaccine and. chickenpox vaccine can prevent. transmission that is not true of most. vaccines but those can't so. >> those can. >> those can and so to your now going back. so that's the differential and in fact. for most of the other vaccines like. ptasus vaccine so forth they make you. more likely to spread the pathogen if. you're vaccinated And I can tell you all. about that. But before I do that, let me. just point out that to your last comment.

because measles MMR vaccine and. chickenpox vaccine can prevent. transmission. You are correct. If. measles were to come through society. right now, right now in the current. time, it would be problematic because. babies who aren't supposed to get it. would be more likely to get it because. the mothers aren't conferring the same. maternal immunity that they did in the. prevaccine era because the vaccine. doesn't confer the same level of. immunity anywhere near. and older folks. um because the vaccine is nowhere as.

efficacious as having had the infection. depending on the study 2 to 10% do not. server convert even after two doses. meaning they are not getting immunity at. all pretty much or immunity that's. considered immune. >> is this when they take it later in life. or when they take it when they're young. >> uh this is when they take it when. they're young um and and that's why when. there's a measles outbreak a lot of. times you'll hear a call to even have. folks who are older get the measles. vaccine again, right? There's there's. guidance on that. >> because it doesn't confer if you've had.

measles, you're done. You never need a. vaccine again. You'll never get measles. again. One and done, right? >> Um but um so yes, it would be. >> it would be problematic. right now for those for for MMR measles. rebella and chickenpox to just kind of. let it rip. Uh you would have to really. uh you know have an an educational. campaign beforehand if you were going to. do that. But for the other vaccines, HEP. B vaccine, Ptasus vaccine, not a. problem. Those vaccines don't stop.

transmission. And I go into that. >> Kind of crazy that they give that to. babies. It's kind of crazy. Kind of. crazy. If the parent aren't intervenous. drug users or or whatever, whatever. would give them he B that you're you're. going to inject a baby with a vaccine. that prevents them from getting a. sexually transmitted disease. and like a. rarely sex. You got to be doing. something rough. >> You know, Joe, you just don't understand. what goes on in the niku. [panting].

>> I mean, >> yeah, >> that see it just seems crazy. >> It it is. And here I'll give you. another data point, which is in Denmark, okay, there is no HEP universal he for. kids. The only time they give HEP in. Denmark is if the mother is Hep B. positive. So their happy B vaccination. rate amongst children is like 0.1% or. something to that effect. Okay. So here. you go. Two first world countries.

America and Denmark. Universal HEP here. virtually zero HEP vaccine given there. The rate of HEP amongst children not. statistically significant. You know what. is different between those two. countries? The rate of harm from HEP. vaccine. That's different. You know what. a baby's never died of on the first day. of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has. died of in the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a. for a newborn that died from a hep. vaccine. And um I said earlier, you.

can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot. There is a little program though in the. federal government where you can bring a. claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now. I went about to have baby that died of. he B, >> right? >> It's called the vaccine injury. compensation program. I have like 20. folks in my firm that do that work. And. um you know, it's not like a regular. court. You don't get an article three. judge. Article three of the. constitution, a federal judge. You don't. get um any discovery as of right, which. is how you prove harms. There's a. $250,000 statutory cap on pain and.

suffering and on death, which is. ridiculous. Um and it doesn't have, you. know, anyways, long story short, it's. paid out about $5 billion for death for. damages and so forth from vaccines over. the years. But um um so so I didn't want. people to get confused like when I said, "Well, how how did this baby get. adjudicated? got adjudicated in this. program. >> Got it. Got it. >> Um, so. when you have conversations with people. and they are the way you used to be and. the way I used to be where you just sort.

of just assumed that these the people. that are experts in their fields are. doing a great job and that's why we're. alive. And you start telling them these. things like are you a a real problem at. a cocktail party? Like, do you have you. ever [laughter] have you ever have you. ever had a conversation that just went. completely sideways and they started. getting angry at you for quoting things? >> Yeah, I cuz that's a it's not a problem. for me cuz I have no emotions or. feelings about the products. They're. just products. They're no different for. me, but a lot of folks um they uh.

there's two things. First, for some like. medical professionals, a lot of them. seem to derive a lot of their self. schema almost the the their value, their. worth from these products. They saved. humanity. How could you question that? We are the saviors, right? In some. respects, almost like supplanting God, right? What's the only thing that will. save us during co was it God? No. Vaccines. That's the only thing. And. then for others, >> they think that they know, okay, but.

they don't know intellectually. They've. never looked at the primary sources. So. when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No, they draw from their emotions. They. draw from their feelings. And that's why. they get angry. I get that. I do get. that all I get that all the time. But I. also often get folks who are just. curious and interested to listen. >> Well, I think there's more of those now. than there's ever been before. >> Abs. Absolutely. I think co in that. respect uh forced the conversation. you. had um millions of people who were.

listening to basic stuff that 10 years. ago when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo, what's a clinical trial, what's the. stuff like this became. >> or even the idea that a vaccine can. cause a harm. >> was even just that notion. >> was totally taboo seven years ago. No. more. >> Yeah. Um, I think you're entirely. correct and also credit to to YouTube. because YouTube doesn't suppress this. stuff anymore, which is why I found. dozens of interviews with you on. YouTube. I mean, before I had I mean,

I'd seen some of your stuff on social. media, but then, you know, I've watched. a bunch of your stuff now on on YouTube, whereas during the pandemic, everything. you said, you would have got removed. >> I was removed. [laughter]. >> Everything I said was removed. I'll tell. you the first thing they ever posted. that got said it was on it was on. Twitter. >> Yeah. The old Twitter. >> So we brought this lawsuit against the. FDA to get all the documents they relied. upon to license Fiser's CO 19 vaccine. Okay. >> Yeah. >> They they licensed it in 42 days and we.

said all right 42 days give us all the. documents. Right. And they wanted. forever. They wanted to produce at a. rate of few hundred pages a month which. would have taken hundreds of years. effectively. Got a trunch of those documents. took. some of them, literally took one of the. documents and posted it and my tweet was. just literally quoting from the document. effectively and that was taken down as. misinformation. Fiser's own document. submitted to the FDA. One of the first. things that that was just that was mind. jarring. It was stunning. It was.

stunning to watch people not be outraged. too when information was getting out. about different people that were. silenced. Jay Bodacharia and all all. these different people that were getting. attacked. Martin Coldf it was stunning. how no one was going, "Hey, what is. going on here? This seems really weird. that you're removing posts from guys. from MIT and Stanford and and banning. their accounts." Like that's. crazy. And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it.

We didn't really we really weren't aware. that it was government involvement that. they were stepping in to remove and. remove malin information. That was my. favorite. They came up with you know. that one. >> disinformation malinformation is the. best because it's true information. [laughter] that might cause problems. which is almost everything. [clears throat] As soon as you have a. problem with malin information like you. are encouraging the creepiest kind of. group think that's available and no one. freaked out. Well, a few people freaked.

out but not enough. It wasn't it should. have been bipartisan. Should have been a. bipartisan freakout. It should have been. left and right, but it got politicized. in this really stupid way where people. on the left were pro- vaccine and pro-. pharmaceutical drug company and pro. narrative and people on the right were. like, I'm going to take my chances and. those were the cooks. And you know, it. was this like ideological battle as much. as it was a public health crisis. >> Censorship was bad. It was very bad. >> Real bad. >> But I'll tell you what made me think.

people were going to go into the street. with pitchforks was when the government. told everybody stay at home. That wasn't. hidden. That wasn't behind the scenes. the stuff you're talking about. They. said stay in your h. They didn't say, "We recommend you stay in your houses.". >> They didn't say, "We recommend you get. this vaccine. We don't recommend you. wear this mask." They said, "Stay in. your house." When the the when they had.

that first order came down, I was like, "People are just going to be outraged. People are going to protest." And when. they didn't, that's what dismayed me. personally. And I'll tell you why, okay? Because when you think about civil and. individual rights, first amendment, the right to free. speech, the assembly, right, that was. passed and adopted by the states in. 1791. What's the first amendment intended to. do? Restrict government from infringing. on those rights. You think life was easy.

in 1791? What do you think life was like. in 1791? You think it was easy? I think. it was all hunky dory. Life in 1791 was. brutal. brutal. You want to talk about disease, pestilence, famine, war, you want to talk about a. life that is no electricity, no running. water, no sew it, nothing. And that. amendment was passed for times that are. more brutal than that. And here comes. a virus.

and every right you have is basically. taken away. And Americans were like, [applause]. "Take it. Take it away.". That is what outraged me because look, what was the whole point of this. country? What what what is America born. out of? In my view, it's born out of the. uh the idea that every other government. that preceded it got it wrong in the. following sense. Your life should not be. dictated by a king or a dictator or a.

polar bureau or a central authority. It's the idea that you are born with. inalienable rights. You should be able. to choose your destiny, including what. risks you want to take. Individual. rights come with risks. Letting Joe. Rogan say what he wants on this podcast. comes with risks. Letting you practice. what religion you want, assemble with. who you want, especially in Austin, very. interesting time yesterday. That comes. with risks. Let me tell you, a lot of. risks, okay?

>> But the greater risk is always seating. that right to the government because. once you do, you don't get it back. often. And so, yes, there was that. hidden stuff you talk about, and that's. not that was bad. Don't get me wrong, that was bad stuff. That's really really. bad. But but the stuff they did in the. open to me in some ways was was even. worse. And I hope that there's a lesson. that folks learn from that because let. me tell you something. Even if you love. every vaccine out there, you're. listening to this, you love every. vaccine, you love every mask, right? Great. I I.

support every American's right. You're. 17, you're 18, you're totally healthy, no coorbidities, and you want to get a. vaccine a day, wear 70 masks, and live. in your basement and self-imposed stay. at home order. This is America. I'm I. support your right to do. I'll fight for. your right to do that. and you're 90 and. you're a war veteran and you want to go. to the you have 16 core morbidities and. you want to go to the coffee shop with. no vaccine and no mask, you should be. free to do that because that's America. too. That's freedom also. >> Just like you can bull ride. And if you. don't stand up for that right now, the day comes when there's something a.

medical product you don't want, the. government says you have to get because. trust me, it is so much cheaper to lobby. to get a medical product required than. it is to market to get people to get it. Oh, they've learned that lesson. That's. why there's so much lobbying to get. mandates, get rid of exemptions across. the country that you don't want and you. can't get a job and you can't go to. school and you can't live your house. Then what good are the rest of your. rights? They're useless. That's why.

medical liberty truly is a fundamental. right. I'm off my high horse. >> No, it's a great high horse. That was an. awesome rant. You're absolutely 100% on. the money and it's that's it's such an. important thing to to get out there to. to get people to understand that you. it's such a natural human inclination to. when you're in a per a place of power of. control any form of government you want. more control and it's just natural and. what you were talking about when you.

lose rights you very rarely get them. back that was so on display in. California with the CO regulations cuz. they had everybody locked down way past. where they had to. A friend of mine's. brother worked in one of the COVID some. government office when they were. considering the closing of outdoor. dining and he brought up but it's. there's no transmission related to. outdoor dining and the the woman who was.

in charge said yes but it's all about. the optics. So, she was willing to with. a wave of her magic wand shut down. outdoor dining for a bunch of small. family businesses that were probably. barely staying alive after CO barely. We. lost somewhere around 70% of Los Angeles. restaurants went under during COVID. That's bananas. And so, they. finally get outdoor dining. Like, okay, we could we could kind of pay the bills.

this month. And then they shut down. outdoor dining for optics. So this this. this kind of desire to just put a foot. down, control people, keep a boot on. their neck. It's normal. Even if it. doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that. from high school. Everybody knows that. from I mean the Stanford prison. experiments. People like to control. people. They enjoy it. And when they get. a place like becoming the mayor or. becoming the governor and being able to. tell people, "Well, you got to listen to. me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside.

Be scared. California Garcetti literally. had a campaign that said snitches get. rewards. Snitches. Snitching on people. Having. more than one person over your house, [clears throat] standing too close in. the backyard. You get money. You get. money for ratting out your neighbor. >> This episode is brought to you by. BetterHelp. In honor of International. Women's Day, BetterHelp is celebrating. the women in your life. I think we can.

all appreciate everything the women in. our lives have done for us and everyone. deserves a little self-care. A good way. to get that is through therapy because. not only is therapy a time for you to. focus on yourself, it's also a way to. create balance and learn how to take. care of your needs in your daily life. And Better Help, as one of the largest. online therapy platforms, makes it so. easy to meet with the right therapist. All you need to do is fill out a short. questionnaire. You don't even need to go.

into an office to meet them. You can. chat at home from your couch, in your. car, before you hit the gym, or while. you're walking your dog. Plus, if you. aren't jing with your first match, you. can switch to a different therapist. whenever you need. Your emotional. well-being matters. Find support and. feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get. 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better. H E LP.com/jre. >> Well, when the government gets it wrong,

they always always double down because. and that's the problem with the mandates. once they've required it, they have. taken a position and then to admit. they're wrong. Often what government. ends up saying is, "Oh, well, we're the. CDC.". If we admit we're wrong about this, that's going to hurt our ability to. influence the public. And that's more. important than admitting we're wrong on. this or correcting course because our. legitimacy, our ability to influence the. public is so important. We have to, you.

know, we can't admit we're wrong. That's. what Bobb's doing right now with some of. these things is, you know, is some of. the stuff like the new autism page on on. the CDC website, for example, is uh is. contrary to anything I've ever seen come. out of the federal health authorities to. date. But yes, it's it's disturbing and. it's why. government should no public health. authority should ever be able to tell. you and infringe on your rights. They. should be able to recommend recommend.

the law. Recommend like crazy but never. do it because that is the normal course. of how tyranny. dictators bullies thugs operate. First they tell you what to do. You. don't listen. Apply a little pressure. You don't listen and they mandate. You. still don't listen, they censor you. Still take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression. throughout history. And we saw it happen. in front of our eyes, which is why it's.

it should be a line in the sand. Federal. health authorities, state health. authorities should be able to recommend. and encourage never mandate ever. Fouchy. literally expressed it that way. I'm. sure you've heard that recording of him. said once people. >> realize they can't go to work, they'll. drop their ideological and. they'll get vaccinated. >> Yeah. >> Like he's he's essentially telling them. you're going to make people's life hell. and they will do what you want them to.

do. Not they will have free will, they. will have the ability to choose. No, no, no. You will make them do what you want. >> Yeah. Who wants a government that. persuades you on the merits? forget. that. >> But imagine that that's that is. something that someone said out loud. >> But but but but. that I don't think that what Fouchi was. saying is anything Fouchi everything in. my view that you saw during co is not. like some giant leap um into some new.

territory. To me it's just another. natural step in progression from where. we've gone over the last 40 years with. vaccines. Uh Fouchi saying that is no. different than school mandates right now. >> to get children. Mo most states have 45. states have basically checked the box. exemption to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're. trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Um clearly they're able to persuade most. parents on the merits, but yet they they. can't take it. They can't take that a 2.

3 4% just will not take these products. And and I you know and I'll tell you by. the way most of these folks are they're. the folks who really need the exemptions. because. um you know most people who don't choose. to take childhood vaccines they don't. typically just wake up and decide to do. that for fun. Not many people wake up. one day and go you know what I'm going. to do today? I'm going to take a socially ostracizing. position that might get my kids kicked. out of school, me thrown out of my job. My friends call me an anti- this and. anti- that. Um you know you name it. all.

the horribles that come with not. vaccinating. No, most people don't. vaccinate. >> don't vaccinate because they've had a. very very personal or or or negative. experience with these products. They or. one of their kids or one of their family. members or they've learned stuff they. cannot learn about them. Okay? They have. usually a very good reason not to. And. yet um as you saw during co. it's not about in many respects.

the medicine to the examples you gave. It's about they cannot stand that. somebody is not agreeing with their. beliefs. They cannot extend the. exceptions. Those who stand up say no. I've come to a different medical. conclusion. They they can't let that. exist. >> Right. That that is what it is. It it it. and it happens for people regardless of. their religious status. It's a weird. thing. It's like it is like a religion. I mean, which is why I'm so glad you.

wrote your book that way because I think. there's these natural patterns of group. think and of. just just complying that people. automatically fall into. It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join. cults. That's why people are a part of. like weird Christian sex. Like, wait, what do you guys do? Huh? You're like, who who's the guy? Who's the head guy? This guy. And he gets to marry. everybody. What? Okay. >> Well, well, that's what. >> it's normal. It's a normal thing. And if.

you scale it outward, it goes to a lot. of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that. people just have these like climate. change is a religion right now. Like. there's certain people that if you. confront them with like the the the. actual the ones that are willing to. question the narrative that are. legitimate client scientists, they'll. tell you like it is so complicated to. figure out what is causing the changes. in the Earth's climate, warmth and cold, and the fact that it's never been static.

ever in human history, never before. humans, never millions of years. It's. done this crazy thing. It involves the. procession of the equinoxes and the. polar vortex and it's a lot of. and then also stuff we burn that too. But like what percentage is what? But it. doesn't matter. You can't have that. conversation. It's like you questioning. you know what whatever messiah this. person believes in. They'll just lock. down and climate change is this. No, not. one climate change prediction of doom.

has been accurate. Not one. Not even in. the ballpark. You remember the. Al Gore movie? Yeah. We're supposed to. be dead. >> Yeah. >> Meanwhile, they're all buying. oceanfront houses in in Maui, >> you know? Get out of here. Shut the. up. This is another thing. This is. another thing. Like, yeah, we shouldn't. pollute. Yeah, we shouldn't release. particulates in the atmosphere. Yeah, we. should have clean energy. Yeah, but also. you guys are crooks. You guys are a. bunch of crooks that are making money. off of this idea that you're forcing.

down everybody's throat that everybody's. got a green new deal and everybody's got. to do renewable this and renewable. And. then who's got money invested in all. this stuff? A bunch of people who are. pushing it and it's a scam. Just. like so many of these things are. scams. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be. aware of the damage that we're doing to. the earth. We should probably stop over. fishing the ocean. We should probably. stop dumping into the rivers of. 100%. You know who used to go to court. for that? >> Bobby. >> RFK Jr. [laughter].

He cranks the guy who is like. cleaning up the East River. That's Bobby. Kennedy Jr. >> He was the guy. >> And and an easy way to identify that. somebody's not really coming at you with. science and they're coming at you with. belief, religion. >> Yes. is exactly what you just said, which is they're not willing to debate. They're not willing to discuss it. They're not willing to engage because. >> that is antithetical to the scientific. method. The whole idea is it's never.

settled. The whole idea is you push the. fringes, you push new theories, you push. new ideas. Where would science be if you. said this is it? Of course, that is the. whole notion of it. dispassionately. looking at it over and over and over and. seeing what more you can learn. And the. moment somebody says no, we need to. stop. You can't discuss, you can't. debate that, that's when you know you're. dealing with religion, not science. >> And when I've talked to certain. scientists in different fields that uh. feel very constricted by the academic.

environment, one of the things that they. point to is that the group think. involved in that is just like the group. think involved in everything, left-wing. politics, whatever it is. just figure. out whatever it is. Right-wing politics, group think in academia is also higher. It's hierarchical. There's there's tiers. and you got to agree with everybody. that's above you. You want to get. tenure, you want to progress, you want. to get grants, it's got to be you guys. got to be in line on all this And. he's like, and anybody who thinks out of. the box is ruthlessly attacked. And even.

when they turn out to be correct, no one. apologizes. No, they they reluctantly. agree that the person was initially. correct, but they'll destroy their. career if they can. He's like, the. pissing matches are horrifying. And. these are the people that are in charge. of telling you what's real in the world. They're just like everybody else. They're they're they have ego and. there's a social scramble going. on at all times and people are playing.

Succession and Game of Thrones. It's. like it's the reality is not what you're. being told in the news. What you're. being told in the news is a narrative. And when the news has a giant chunk of. their money for advertising that's paid. by pharmaceutical drug companies and. they never criticize him, be like this. is wild. Like this is wild that this. this is America in 2026 and the only way. you can find out what's kind of real is. on the internet. >> Uh yes. And uh also um when it comes to.

censorship, if I said some totally crazy stupid. thing about you that was totally untrue, like ignore it. If I said about. government, they ignore it. When do they. censor? >> They censor when it's true cuz that's. when they're scared, >> right? If you start talking about the. government being lizard people, nobody's. going to nobody comes for you. They're. all shape shifters. Nobody cares. But. when you start talking about something. that's true, that's when it hurts.

That's when they that's what they need. to suppress. You think they need to. suppress stuff about um I don't know, a. certain island with that where if it's. not true, no. >> But if [snorts] it is true, that's when. it gets scary and that's when you need. suppression, >> right? >> And also I'll note I went to Berkeley. for law school. >> So I I'm I'm familiar with a little bit. of what you were just talking about and. that experience too. It was two. That. was over two decades ago. It was going. strong back then. >> It was going strong back then, but it I. feel like it was much more reasonable.

Like I used to love San Francisco back. then. It was a It was a great town to. visit. They were smart. They were cool. They were laidback. People like to. drink, but they were fun. They They. always seemed like a smarter LA that got. out of show business. >> San Francisco, Berkeley, were two different things. I completely. agree. And even in I mean if let's throw. outside the bubble of Berkeley from 20. years ago look back over 20 20 years ago. who was fighting for civil individual. rights it was the left.

ACLU think about Skoi Illinois right. fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to. march through a Jewish town to say what. they want. Who fought that case? Who. protected their right to say that? Democrat ACLU liberal lawyers and. liberal judges and they said protecting. their right to say the things they're. saying as despicable as horrible as we. might find it protects all our right to. free speech. Could you imagine those. same folks today bringing that case and. deciding that way? No way.

>> No way. And what's stunning is that if. you asked anybody alive then if you had. ultimate access to information literally. you could pick up your phone and ask it. any question about anything and get. information instantaneously. Would people be more or less informed? You would say, well, certainly they'll. be more informed, so they'll be more. understanding of the value of free. speech and they'll know more about that. ruling and what a brave stance they took.

to allow the KKK to march and how it. just shows intellectual superiority. The. way to beat a bad idea is not to silence. it is to argue it with a much better. idea. >> You would think by 2026, well, they. they'll be way better. This would be a. super advanced society of flying cars. No, no, no. It's um more ideologically. captured, more wrapped up in the. algorithm, which I think is probably at. least 50% fake. 50% is a bunch of bots.

tweeting a bunch of that's, you. know, they don't even believe. They're. just trying to rile people up and stir. people up and and push certain. narratives and then people are locked. into it 12 hours a day. So they're. really crazy and no one's considering. things like the important well let's go. back to old cases and let's look at why. they did that and was like no no no. everybody's like captured with whatever. the is on TikTok today what's the. latest stupid thing you're supposed to. be paying attention to and the fact that. now we're at war right okay great.

>> it it social media and the scrolling. through those videos which is what. you're describing I think is so. troubling first of all my understanding. is that they just show you stuff that. confirms what you already believe. because that's what you want to see. You. want to see the things that you already. agree with. So you just get this. incredible confirmation bias that. happens which is antithetical to to to. thinking critically to really opening. your mind to it and then you end up you. know uh without cuz without actually. understanding both sides of an argument.

without really understanding it. I mean, look, I understand the stuff about. vaccines that I know which ones stop. transmission, >> right? >> And I know which ones don't, right? And. I don't have to live in the world of. believing, for example, they all do. >> I know how much death there was before. each vaccine. And I know so I don't have. to say didn't ever save any life and I. don't have to say millions would die. I. just the data is the data, right? And. and but you don't if all you're getting. is one viewpoint all the time, you're. not you get this terrible confirmation.

bias. And did you see this recent study. that I I did I just read the um the. abstract so I didn't delve into it but. >> apparently watching social media uh. reduces your IQ over time you know just. doing all of that scrolling that's. that's really scary when you think about. our current generation. >> Yeah. Imagine if it could make you. smarter. How many more people would be. interested in doing it? [laughter]. >> Right. Like if there was a thing if you. could just stare at your phone for a few. hours a day and you get significantly. smarter. Like it's a 10point jump in IQ. You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our.

house. If you find the Wi-Fi, it's. called read a book. >> I'm not kidding. >> That's funny. That's funny. And then you. hear things like, "You shouldn't have. Wi-Fi in your house because all the. signals flying around are bad for you.". Like, how bad? Are you sure? Like, what. is that? Like, how long have we been. doing the Wi-Fi thing? A decade, two. decades, three decades? >> I mean, in the course of of the length. of humanity, that's not very long. >> It's not very long. >> I mean, look, I. >> I hope Wi-Fi is not killing us. I really. do. It's so convenient. Look at most most listen obviously most.

things that will just kill you get. identified. >> right. >> it's not the things that kill you. immediately that are a problem typically. cuz. >> they killed you and so you know it's the. things that that cause. >> slow issues ongoing issues I mean we. know folks who work in high power lines. have higher far higher rates of cancer. study after study reflects that for. example. >> which makes sense I mean. >> right I mean and look. >> so iPod's bad for you. >> you know what I If the AirPods are bad. in your ears, imagine being next to.

those power lines. What does that do to. you? >> I don't want to go down this rabbit hole. because it's not my my area per se, but. for the whole length of humanity, right, when you think of the of of the the. spectrum, right? We were pretty much. only exposed to natural light, which is. a very narrow light, narrow band of the. of the spectrum. Okay. All right. when. you think of waves. So, as you go down. on the left side of the spectrum, the. waves get longer, like AM waves, really. long FM waves, microwaves, natural. light. And then above that, you get.

X-rays, cosmic rays, and anything above. natural light, they say, "Oh, that's. really bad. That's just going to mess. you up.". >> And stuff below natural light, they they. say, "Well, as long as it doesn't heat. up your cells, that's typically the. standard our government uses, it's safe. So, as long as it's not heating your. cell, but that's not that's a very old. standard, but it's still the one in. effect today. So, um in any event, when. you think about microwaves, they said. stay away from it, even though it's. below natural light, there's um you.

know, what is the cumulative effect of. being if you put your Wi-Fi around under. your bed every night, your whole life, what is the effect? There are numerous. studies that show that it does have. certain effects, but anyway, it's not. worth going down that road. But yeah, >> but it might just be minor or it might. be cumulative, right? >> Yeah. And then how about cell phone. signals? You can't even stop those. >> They're around you all the time. >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you can FaceTime someone in. New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air.

>> I'll put it this way. Every. environmental insult has the potential. to cause some kind of dysregulation in. your body. whether it's microplastics, whether it's you name it. Okay? And the. precautionary principle would indicate. that until you know it's safe, the onus. is on those who want to expose you to it. to prove to you it is, right? It. shouldn't be the other way around. I. don't think anybody has to prove to you. that Wi-Fi is not safe to say, you know. what, based on the precautionary. principle, I'm just going to turn off. the Wi-Fi every night at my house.

because I don't know, like that doesn't. seem unreasonable to me because humans. have been explosive forever. I've not. seen the studies that validate that it. doesn't cause an issue or or or large. robust studies. And so, you know, but. obviously I think what I just said might. some people might hear and go, "Well, that sounds crazy." Well, why. >> I why would it be crazy if we we found. out that there's a particular frequency. that's bad for your memory or bad for. your brain and that we're using it to. broadcast something that that completely.

makes sense. >> Yeah. Except that I never think about. harms the way you just said it because. that would indicate that we have to find. out what harms it causes, right? I to me. when I go into a car dealership for. example I walk in and and and the and. the salesman says all right this car. okay and I say well is it safe and the. car dealer says to me prove to me it's. not safe and I said well and [laughter]. I said well what what do you what do you. what do you mean if you can't prove it.

you got to take this car by the way. that's how vaccines work that's how a. lot and that is the that is become a. little bit of the depending on the. mostly for vaccines, but a little bit. for some of these other products where. it's like, you got to prove it's not. safe. No, I don't have to prove it's not. safe. I'm not buying this car. YOU PROVE. TO ME IT'S NO, YOU PROVE to me this. vaccine causes HARM OR YOU BETTER take. it. Uh, that's the way it's approached. A little bit like that Wi-Fi and with. all with with 5G and the LTE and all. that stuff. It's almost like you prove. to me that doing this all day is going.

to cause brace cancer or else you're. cook. Uh, no. Why don't you show me the. study shows it doesn't do that? That's. the way it should work with products and. product safety. >> That that makes sense. That's very. reasonable. Um, again, I don't know. I'm not saying that. it does, but what I'm saying is there's. been things that human beings did and. they found it was really bad for you. We've talked about it a few times, but. those ladies, they used to text uh test. the X-ray machines with their hands. >> And um, no one told them, no one told.

them that X-rays can give you cancer and. you up. And these poor ladies, every day when they would show up at the. medical office, they would put their. hand in the X-ray machine to make sure. it worked. And then you see their hands. next to each other. It's horrifying. Like they got horrible lesions on their. hands. And it's like, it's really. creepy. They x-rayed pregnant women. until the 70s. >> Jeez. >> They until the 70s. They were x-raying. pregnant women. Not with the x-rays of. today that are far less radiation. exposure. The x-rays of the 70s, which. is a lot. They gave the I believe the.

Nobel Prize. like this. I'm not I'm. pretty sure about this for the. labbotomy. >> Yeah, if. >> I'm not mistaken. >> I think they did. I think you're right. I think they did. Find that out. Jamie, put put that into our sponsor, Perplexity. The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg, told me about the origins of it. I was. like, wait, what? There was a guy who. made dynamite dynamite and there was a. false story about his death and in the. newspaper it's they called him the. merchant of death and he realized it and. he was like oh I got to change my.

PR I got to change my image and so he. came up with the Nobel Prize. He started. awarding this prestigious prize. And. then instead of him being connected with. blowing people up with dynamite, he. became connected with uh the most. prestigious prize and all of medicine. and all of government and the peace the. Nobel Peace Prize. It's pretty crazy. >> It's amazing when you have money how you. can influence the world to think certain. things about in his instance him and.

others certain products. Exactly. Absolutely. It's but what's really. stunning is you're also allowed to. influence the people that actually. deliver the news which is you know. that's the crazy one like Cali means. talked about that like they're. advertising not because they want to. sell their products with the. advertisement that they're putting on. the air. They're doing that too, but. they're also ensuring that this steady. stream of revenue that's going to these. networks, they won't be opening up any.

lines of in investigation into the. vaccine injuries. Like, it's not going. to happen. You're not going to see a. giant CNN piece about COVID 19 vaccine. injuries. It's not happening. It's not. happening. You're not You're not going. to hear much about anything. It's gota. be it has to be a big story. where they have to say it or they just. mention a judgment real quick and then. move on. Moving on. >> Uh the Rasmutin poll, I don't know if. you remember this one, found that I.

believe one in four, and I'm not I think. that's right, but I'm not sure 100%. People said they believe they knew. somebody that died of COVID vaccine or. knew somebody that died of COVID. vaccine. when you have that many people. with that with with that lived. experience. and yet the mainstream media as you just. said was still able to continue to push. the narrative around COVID vaccines the. way they did the Nobel Prize. Um, >> wow. Nobel Prize related labbotomy. refers to 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology.

or Medicine awarded to Antonio Agos. Monise, a Portuguese neurologist for. developing the preffrontal labbotomy. I. believe that continued until the 60s by. the way. >> Yeah, imagine that he got that prize in. 49. They were like, "Good job.". >> Meaning the medical profession as it. stood in the 60s when measles vaccine. was rolling out was still doing this by. the way. >> I think they stopped labbotoies in 60. was it ' 67? >> He developed something called a. lucottomy.

which was slightly different than what. became known as the labbotomy which we. known as like the ice pick method. Oh, what was his name? >> It said also called the lucatotomy. >> So that was uh this the Freeman that's. the guy who was like the doc I think. they called him even Dr. Death or. something like that. >> for he did like he did a ton of. labbotoies all over the country. >> Unfortunately today you don't need a. labbotomy apparently to have a labbotomy. just to spend a lot of time on social. media and get your information from. certain places and. >> it's so bad for.

>> seems to be you can maybe end up in the. same place. >> It's just hard hard to recommend a. certain amount of it. It's like how much. uh Twinkies should you eat in a day? I. don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if. you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're going to be up, man. And. that's how I feel about like social. media interactions, but I do think it's. an important way to distribute uh. information. It's if you're with say if. you're working for some corporation and. you know something up is going on. and and you could put it up on Twitter. and with with details and facts and and.

people could look into it and you could. open up a line of reporters [snorts] and. investigative journalists that are gonna. find this, expose it, and you could. really break a story that is like good. for everybody. Like the having a way to. communicate ideas like that is. fantastic. Everything else, like all the. arguing, all the that people do. back and forth, you're just rotting your. brain out and we're all guilty of it. Well, look, >> if you're on it, >> I mean, during the COVID pandemic when. all of these government overreaches were.

occurring, but for the existence of. social media, you know, podcasts like. yours and other alternative platforms, right? The information in many respects. wouldn't have come out if you didn't. have Peter McCull on. >> Yeah. >> Robert Malone on. Um, and if Fox and. some just that little portion of the I. guess more traditional media sphere. wasn't willing for a time period to have. folks on. I mean, and listen, trust me, when I started doing vaccine related. work a decade ago, I never thought a.

single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN. would ever have me on, right? >> They had me on numerous times until, you. know, vaccines kind of like, all right, let's not touch that again. Was this. during this was during the Biden. administration then and I think part of. that was because it was a point of. contention between the right and the. left, right? It was the right opposing. the um draconian measures that the left. who is in power and we got to get the. right back in power because we're all. about freedom, you know. So, I think. there was a little bit of that going on. there, right? Um for sure there was some.

of that going on as you pointed out I. believe in the past um when Trump was. promoting the vaccine. We're not taking. that vaccine. And the moment Biden was. like, "WE'RE TAKING THE VACCINE.". >> Kla Harris was saying it. Why would you. trust him and whatever his vaccine is? Like that is so crazy. These people are. fake. >> I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and. said everybody should get every vaccine. out there, I you know, see what would. happen. I don't know. Maybe would stop. saying it. >> Yeah. If he really got into trans kids,

>> they'd put a ban to it immediately. Yeah. It's um it's weird. It's weird to. watch. weird to watch us uh so divided. and at each other's throats. And uh I. really do think that a giant percentage. of the uptick and the craziness is just. social media. I don't think people are. designed for it. I just thank God Elon. bought Twitter because if he didn't, we. would not have the the kind of access to. the the actual truth, the real data. It. would all be suppressed. You would never. find out about it. How would you know.

about these studies? No one's going to. you're not going to go scouring through. journals. And even if you do, what are. you going to do? You got to get on. Rumble and talk about it. That's. probably the only way you can. And if. anybody from Rumble tries to share that. on a Twitter, they'll get banned. >> So, it's like we were in a we were in a. real pickle. >> It was a bad spot. >> Yeah. >> And it was just a few years ago, which. is nuts. >> We could have gone a very different. direction. And I'll use an analogy when. they remember the airlines, you know, because CDC required masks on planes. >> Yeah. >> When that got struck down by the courts.

Okay. Um, a number of airlines said, "We're going to keep our mass mandate.". I don't know if you remember that. You. know, they proudly came out. The CEO. said, "We're going to keep it." Half of. them said they're going to keep it. The. other half immediately lifted the mask. mandate on planes. And those that. decided to keep it, they dropped it. within a day or two, I think, or. something like that. Really rapidly. because economically they were losing. business, >> right? >> And I think that that changed the. central gravity on that issue. I think. Elon buying Twitter X um basically sent.

changes center of gravity on censorship. whereby without that they might have all. just kept going even in the worst. direction and they saw they were losing. market share to X once he bought it and. he didn't have censorship. I think that. conformed their conduct. >> Well, it was also it was indicative of. how people actually felt versus what was. suppressed. Like when you realize that. there's well he have you ever seen like. how people identifying as non-binary and.

trans dropped off like like right after. purchase of Twitter because people got a. chance to talk about it now and you can. criticize it and people could put up. memes and they can call it a mental. illness again and then all a sudden. everybody's like hey what are we what. are we supporting men with penises in. the women's room? Like did we get. hypnotized? Like what the happened? And now you're seeing even prestigious. mainstream media publications talking. about the dangers of gender transition.

for young kids. >> Wow. Okay. So, what happened? What. happened? What happened was Elon bought. Twitter and people were out to actually. accurately gauge what people were. willing to tolerate and what they. actually want versus what's being shoved. down everybody's throats with censorship. and with mainstream media narratives. They just keep piping back and forth. pretending everybody agrees with them. >> That's one piece of it. They're also, by. the way, a lot of the hospitals and. doctors are getting sued. >> right and right on this. In fact,

>> you know, we. >> especially after that first ruling, right? we have, you know, um um. um. I can't talk about it, but so very very. troubling. >> matters which including suicide and. hiding it from parents. >> Yeah. >> Um school districts hiding I mean it's. really troubling stuff. >> Do you have children? >> Yeah, I do. >> I do too. And one of the things you. realize if you have children is that. they are very malleable and they want to.

fit in and they are subject to social. contagions. And that social contagion. can be dressing up goth. It could be. like whatever it is like they want to. fit and they're experimenting. their. kids. And if you just decide, oh, you're. a boy, and then you bring the boy that. kid to and you're giving them all this. positive attention and you're giving. them all this positive feedback. And. then you go to school, I'm trans now, and everyone says, you're brave. Like. for awkward kids, that is absolutely. enticing. >> Yeah. >> And not only that, they do it in.

clusters. Like Abigail Shrier has. written about this that this is a lot of. these girls have autism and a lot of. these girls they're socially awkward and. they're very uncomfortable with their. body and they're going through puberty. which kind of freaks them out already. Freaks out any girl. Yeah. >> And then something comes along like this. and now you've been taken to a doctor. and had your breast removed and you're. 15. That's crazy. And to say. anything in opposition to that somehow. became you're a bigot or you're a Nazi.

or you're transphobic. This is crazy. talk. Like you're talking about very. malleable children doing something you. can't even get a tattoo if. you're 15. Why can you get your breast. removed? That's nuts. Unfortunately, it. became a very big business. The number. of centers in America that perform these. surgeries exploded. And so with that. explosion, you need clients. Every like. every business, it needs to feed, right, that business model, right? And so, um,

that is so evil. It's so creepy to think that people are. willing to talk people into that just. for money, but. they've done it with so many other. things. And it's it's not it's not. impossible to believe that it's true. >> It's scary. A lot of times if you follow. the money trail you can see how things. develop and where they go. It often. helps you know puts in perspective. And. look PE rare is the person that says I'm.

evil. I'm bad. I mean people find a way. to justify things. They find a way to. excuse them and you know find you know. the well I'm doing more good than bad. you justification in their minds. >> Or there's the diffusion of. responsibility that comes with being a. part of a corporation that's doing. something. Hey, look, I'm just an. accountant or hey, I'm just an engineer. or hey, you know, I'm doing I'm not I I. don't want the company to move in this. direction. However, I do own stock. So, >> oh, >> as it goes up, >> especially especially in public traded. companies, which brings us back to the.

very beginning of the. >> which is you know that that is what. happens in those corporations. >> Should that be a thing? >> Like if you could redo the if you had a. magic wand and you could completely redo. the economy, would you have the stock. market? I mean, isn't it enough that people just. buy things, sell things, your company's. worth money because it makes money? Isn't that enough? >> Why Why do we have to complicate it? Why. Why do we have a stock market? But. >> I don't know if the stock market itself.

is the problem. I mean, stocks, the. whole idea is just to find a, you know, a more a efficient way for me to sell. you shares in my company. That's all it. is. But the underlying problem is not. the market in my view. It's not the. existence of the stock market. It's the. government. intervening. into the. market forces in a way that do not. result in a good outcome and and often. that is at the behest of industry when.

government there needs to be some. government regulation. >> So that's the problem. The problem is. that corporations have money. They can. use that money to influence laws, influence government. >> I. that that is a significant part of the. problem because look most regulatory. agencies are born out of some crisis. when you right. >> right. >> so uh they often start as a great idea. like people wanting to do good members. of our congress wanting to do good but. then who's got the time money and. inclination to influence that regulatory.

agency you well you do have some money. but you me who no it's going to be even. with even even with even Even wealthy. folks don't have it. They don't they're. not going to do it. The very It's not. even the lobbyists per se. It's the very. industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that to create the. revolving door. Right. >> Right. >> Think about like this. Article one of. the constitution creates Congress.

Right. First article. And what's its. purpose? Primary purpose is to pass. laws, right? How many laws a year does. it pass? You think approximately? about 200. Okay. Our agencies on the federal government, do you know how many regulations which. have the same exact weight as law are. they pass every year? >> Can I guess? >> Yeah. >> 2000. >> It depends on the year, but often more. >> Really? >> Yes. Um there's a chart on this that I'm. sure can be pulled up, but uh it's not.

but it's something to that effect. Depends on the year, but somewhere. between let's say 100, 300 to thousands. on the other side. And who are those. folks passing? Are they part of the. article one, the constitutional branch. supposed to pass laws that are elected. representatives? No, they're unelected. bureaucrats. sitting there and you name your alphabet. agency that you've probably never heard. of that pass these rags that the same. force of law and who's really has the. again the time and inclination to. influence them? It's often the very.

industry. So it starts as a good idea. but unfortunately it ends up being uh. what what the literature calls this is. the political science literature came. out of Harvard and Yale and all those. places they don't want to talk about it. today captive agencies. >> okay that's what they often become CDC. FDA and very much are to varying degrees. depending on what they're doing are very. much captive agencies when you look.

closely at it and you understand. Um that's true of many other parts of. the government and so well particularly. people don't know a lot of people don't. know that haven't gone down these rabbit. holes that a lot of these people it's a. revolving door they leave the FDA and. then they go and work for the. pharmaceutical drug companies they make. a lot of money. >> yes. like Julie Gerbering who is the head of. the CDC in the '9s that oversaw some of. the most controversial disputes about.

what whose products, Mercs vaccine. products. Okay. And then after her, you. know, she she cleaned all that up, left. CDC and went to work for who? Mercillions. of dollars. I believe she's made over. the time that she's been there. So, she. did good. She got rewarded. You think if. she didn't do good, she wouldn't get. rewarded. You don't think other people. see that in the federal health? Of. course they know. They all know. >> Of course. So, it's the golden parachute. and everybody strives for it. If you can.

get that post, if you can get the top of. the food chain over at the CDC, guys, see in about five years, then in five. years, you're thinking about your. Lamborghini, you got a yacht, and your. future. >> It's just it's kooky. >> Yeah, I mean, >> it's cookooky that it's legal. >> Look, I I don't know if it's as. nefarious as that in the minds of of of. people in public health. Let's put that. way since we're talking about public. health officials. I but I I think that. there it has a corrupting influence that.

cannot be detangled from the fact that. they're human. It will influence them. I. don't think it's like. >> there's also a precedent. There's a. precedent that's been set with many. people before them. So, it's something. they look forward to. If you get this. job, you will likely get a job like this. afterwards. A bunch of people have. And. so, you think about that while you're. trying to get that job. It's part of the. motivation is financial reward. >> Absolutely. Well, there was a there's a. Fiser executive who was serendipitously. recorded specifically saying that.

something it's in my I I have the. exchange in my book. It's something to. the effect of, >> well, you know, those who are working at. the FDA, you know, or, you know, they. they're eventually going to, you know, come work for industry, so they don't. want to, you know, hurt industry too. much. And the person askked the question. says, "Well, you think that's bad?" Add. goes, "Yeah, it's bad for America, you. know, but not bad for the companies.". >> That's the problem. >> That's exactly right. >> Well, this is the thing about having an. obligation to your shareholders, which.

brings me back to the whole stock market. thing. I know this is kooky thought, but. I mean, if we never had the stock market. in the first place and you didn't have. an obligation to your shareholders to. consistently make more money every. quarter, Yeah. if people could just like. accept the fact that. >> you own this business, this person, you. make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great. Like why why. have all these people making money just. moving stocks around insane amounts of. wealth, manipulating systems to crash. stocks? And there's there's people that.

are like in public office that say. things that aren't necessarily true that. influence the market. Then it turns out. they were totally wrong. And then you. find out that they bet on it and they. made a bunch of money in the stock. market. This is crazy. This is crazy. And it's all true and it's all it's all. legal which is so bizarre that. in. a time where we are completely aware. that all this stuff is taking place. >> All right. Can I put that into three. different buckets? I want to put in. three different buckets. There's the.

bucket of making products, right? There. are companies that make products or. companies that provide services. including financial services that can be. useful like. >> you need a mortgage if you can buy a. house, you can't afford it. So mortgage. products are a service that are brought. financial industry. And then there's, I. think, what you're talking about, which. is the part of our economy that is. finance. It's just moving money. It's. just moving numbers where they've got, you know, uh, high-speed computers that. are trying in micro fractions of a. second to beat out the other guy to. basically triage and make money based on.

that adds no value to our economy. you. know, products and services add value. and and to to to to everything you see. around that we're sitting in right now. was made by a company, right? And so, um. um and I'm not aware of a. system. that has been more efficient at. producing products and services that. improve the lives of others than the. free market system with some regulation.

Okay. I haven't I I'm not aware of one. Social doesn't do it. We've seen that in. action, right? Communism does not do it. We've seen that in action. >> When you just do it, it right. >> Dictators now, but so. clearly. >> So, so I wouldn't throw out the whole. system is what I'm saying. What I'm. saying is that. >> I'm not saying that. >> Yeah. I'm saying that that that part of. it is good. Now, when you break the. alignment of mark of of economic. self-interests of the companies, the. market interests to whatever it is,

protect consumers. That's when you have. a problem. And that is the idea or at. least they sell it as the idea from a. lot of government regulations. Well, the government the company is not on its. own going to do what's right in this. instance. So, we need government to do. it. And if government really only. stepped in when it was truly needed, it. would be a good system. You're right. Right. >> But the system often breaks when they. step in when they're not needed. and.

sometimes when they step in and have the. opposite effect when they're really just. protecting the industry at the expense. of consumers which happens too often. >> is the benefit of the stock market and. I'm this is again nonsense right I'm I'm. not an economist clearly but if we had. never invented it if human beings had. never come up with this idea if instead. we just had a free market what has the. stock market what has publicly traded. companies what has the ability to own.

stock and companies and hedge funds and. all that stuff. What has that what has. that done for innovation and for. progress and for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more. products and encouraged more activity in. the economy and we're further ahead than. we would have been if no one had. invented it? because it seems like at. the very least it's a weird opening for. people that just move money around and. add no value and extract enormous.

amounts of wealth. So that seems like. you got a a hole in your pipe. Like why. are people that aren't even involved why. do they get to make all the money on. this? Like what is going on here? It's a. you're doing a weird thing that I don't. know if you had to do to achieve the. same result that you achieved with a. free market capitalist society that. doesn't have a stock market that just. has a bunch of companies making money. and everybody doing the stuff they do is. like is it a necessity is what I'm. asking.

>> Well, outside of my air expertise, but. >> definitely outside of mine. [laughter]. >> Um I mean I'll give you my musings. Yes, please. So, this is just my off-the-cuff. musings, and that's something I actually. really want to think about more. But, so. when I think about, you know, companies. going public, um, it certainly appears to help drive. capital to those companies because. hedge uh, um, you know, venture capital. funds a lot of times their exit.

strategy. So, I'm willing to give you. all this, I'm a venture capital. I'm. willing to give you all this money to. start this company because I know at the. you know my goal is three to five years. from now it can go public and I the. venture capital fund can get back x. amount of my money that's my that's the. exit strategy for that investment now if. there was no efficient market to to to. do that right meaning you couldn't just.

have an a publicly traded market where. just easy to sh sell sh right to have. this public offering. >> Mhm. >> What would that do to venture capital. funds? Well, I I mean, would they still. invest as much? They might. And instead, they might just focus on hard money. returns, >> right? They want companies that really. just make money um you know, cash on. cash versus this immediate bubble of of. of equity inflation that happens when. you go public because it's now liquid.

the ownership, >> right? Market caps. I don't know if that. answers your question, but that's like. well I I don't think it does because you. know your question was a good one. It's. it's far more sophisticated than what I. answered because you're saying what does. it contribute to society, >> right? I don't think it contributes. anything. >> contributes I just answered it so. narrowly and said well it might add some. it might entice venture capitalists. though I don't know if I don't even know. if that what I just said is entirely. like they might still do it anyway.

because they'll just might do the best. thing. Now, what does it add to the side. all have liquid? I mean, it'd be harder. to have like a retirement account in the. way you have right now to own stock, right? That would be more difficult to. put your money in and buy shares of. Coca-Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to. be owned by, you know, certain families. or would you rather them be owned by the. public? >> I think you should be allowed to keep. your company in your family if you own. it. >> Well, you should be. Well, you you.

certainly can look at look at the New. York Times. >> The New York Times the family kept. controlling if I my understanding. >> again we're outside of my normal area of. expertise but the family my. understanding has the controlling uh of. uh votes in that company but it's. publicly traded as well in New York. Times. >> Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, >> I know people that have taken their. company public and regretted it. Like. it's too much you deal with too. much nonsense afterwards and then. they're like it wasn't worth it just for. the hassle and the quality of life. I I.

would have never done it if I had known. this. >> I guess it depends what they wanted. >> Yeah, I guess it depends what they. wanted. But my the question is like if a. bunch of people are making money that. aren't contributing. They're just like. siphoning money by moving money around. all over the place. Like isn't that. leaky money? Like if you don't really. contribute anything, you don't provide. any value and yet you're extracting. extreme wealth, don't you have a leak in. the pipe? It seems like if that money. was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and. services, that would be a much more like.

honest society. But would it have the. same amount of in in uh would would it. have the same amount of innovation and. would it have the same amount of uh. productivity or is that productivity not. just enhanced by this flood of capital. but also encouraged? So it like. stimulates everything. So like having. these vampires sucking on the pipe like. ultimately it does move numbers around. and it gets more stuff out there and.

which also encourages innovation. I. don't know. >> I mean I I think that there's a gray all. right. I think there's a gray area. between the second and third bucket. So. we we were talking about like products. and services. Maybe we'll make that one. bucket because those can have value to. side from many of them. And then there. at the extreme there's like just like. triage nonsense that happens. You know, I put my supercomput as close as. possible to, you know, the the super the. stock exchange and so I can like.

>> make money on fractions of a fraction. Like that's that's like the and then. there's something then there's like that. gray. >> zone in between where. >> there's you know mortgage is good. Okay. Help the American family achieve their. dream of owning a home. Now, uh, uh, mortgage back securities, maybe not so good. Mortgage back. securities that are double, triple. sliced into all these tanches getting. worse going down that road like there's. a degree where you're you're getting.

further and further away from the very. point of that financial instrument that. was that had good. So, I I think that. there is there's a point at which yeah, no good. Um, but but I think we it's. hard to talk in generalities in my mind. like if you have a specific example, let's go down that road. Well, Bernie. Maidoff's the best example. >> Oh, >> right. Obviously, everybody had to know. something was there was some shenanigans. taking place because the returns were. too crazy. But look out how many. intelligent people invested money with. him because he was so successful.

>> Just my old office in in Manhattan when. I used to work at Laens was I think. three floors above Bernie's office in. the lipstick building. I was on 23rd. I. think it was 20. Nothing to do with. them. Anyways, [laughter] uh, zero. Um, okay. Yeah, but Bernie Bernie just. straight up. >> stole. >> Just stole. I mean, that's not that's. not even a thing. Come on. He just No, you're right. He just made He just He. just stole. >> money and gave out like fake returns as.

far as I know. >> Yeah. Yeah. He He had people thinking. that they were making all this money. there. >> It just a pyramid scheme basically. >> 100%. >> that was eventually going to fail. I. mean, it only could go on for so long. Well, I think it up because of. the 2008 crisis, right? They think he. could have kept it going if there wasn't. the crash. Wasn't that what did him in? >> There's always going to be a dip. So, it. was only a matter of time. I mean, he. was going to get. >> That was a big one, though. And people. wanted their money back and he was like, "Yikes.". >> Just [laughter] I mean, that's an. incredible It's an incredible scheme.

It's It's amazing that somebody could. even pull that off. Frankly, >> it is crazy and it is incredible. But it. just shows you that this is a a weird. system that you you can pretend to be. moving money around and you don't have. any products and. >> but it corrected. >> It did. He It's a good point because he. did go to jail. >> He corrected. He went to jail and man. did he become the post trial of like. >> Yeah. >> Wall Street fraud. Don't do that. >> Don't do that. He became Don't do that. Yeah. It's just it's probably a stupid. question because I don't know anything. about economics, but I was just thinking.

that like couldn't we have the same. world and not have that and wouldn't. that be more honest and more beneficial? But it would have to have happened from. the beginning. It would have to be like. there was never publicly traded. companies from the beginning. >> All right, let's let's think of a. company you like like. >> Coca-Cola. >> You like Coca-Cola? >> I like a little Diet Coke every now and. then when I want some brain fog. All. right. [laughter]. >> I don't want a nice taste in my mouth. and an aspartame hangover. [laughter]. >> Uh, okay. I'll think of another one. Um,

Chevy. >> Chevy. Okay. Chevy. So, I don't know. Would without um without the ability to. raise money in liquid capital markets. Would Chevy have grown to what Chevy. became? Or at least in the in the in the. in the speed at which it did that then. revolutionized automotive and other. industries? Probably not. Maybe not. >> Yeah, maybe not. >> Maybe not. >> But you wonder like if people were. motivated and and people were ambitious. and we always have been, you know, like.

if that wasn't a part of our economy. >> Yeah. >> I wonder. >> I bet it I bet it has a pretty big. impact when you put it that way. You. think about something as big as Chevy, you know, but it's just the motivation of money. is always going to be there. And if. people ignore it because it's. inconvenient and it doesn't align with. their ideology, you've been captured. And this is why I. think what you're you're talking about. all the time is so hard for people that.

are true believers to swallow because it. it makes you have you're forced to. reformulate your entire worldview. If. you've been duped that hard by something. like the actual data on vaccine efficacy. and you know who's really profiting and. why it's set up the way it is and what. the studies really are when you realize. you've been duped that hard, it's it's a. hard pill to swallow for a lot of. people. Absolutely. But I will say this, you don't need to go down a rabbit hole,

okay? Because that happens to a lot of. people with vaccines. I've seen. not the majority, not most, but it. happens to some where it's like, "Oh my. goodness, if the government's lying or. not telling me the truth about these. products, then what can I believe?" And. I and you know, people some folks can go. down some some different alleys. And I. would say that I would really truly. I have not seen anything like vaccines. Vaccines really are in their own bucket. because of that immunity. It's what I.

call original sin in my book. There. really is no product, no product that. I'm aware of that operates in this kind. of landscape. Like I said, every other product the. market force will for to varying degrees. with wrinkles correct for the issues. because there's economic self-interest. They broke that with vaccines. So we've. gone from three shots following the 198. in 1986 one before the first year of age. at the beginning of 2000 2025 you know.

how many shots it was that a baby got. honor before the first birthday. >> take a guess. >> 72. >> no no that's that's that's her whole. childhood 29. >> 29 by the first birthday. >> yes honor before the first birthday went. from three to 29 shots including in. uterero now with the recent changes it's. down to 19 and the reason I focus on the. first year most of the shots in the. first six months of life is that's when. the baby is going through really. critical stages of of of um neurological.

imunological development, right? Synapse. and think how small a baby is. Okay? And. so um um they're really susceptible to. various effects. Also babies can't. express what what's what's going wrong. with them. Okay? So now in the normal. course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product. You've gone from. three of them in 1986 by the first year. You're up to 25, 29, beginning of 2025. Now you're at 19 still. And during that. period, you've gone from under 10% of.

kids had a chronic health issue in the. early 1980s, according to the data. you. now have over 40% some data show over. 50% of kids having chronic health issues. often multiple times the rate. Okay. And. what are those chronic health issues. that have exploded? To be sure, by the. way, any environmental insult can cause. dysregulation in the body. Okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at. those uh um chronic diseases that have. exploded, almost all of them have an.

ideology. relating to some form of immune system. dysregulation. Look at asthma. Look at. attopic issues. Look at ticks. Look at. ADHD. Nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the public end. literature, there's uh immune markers. that have gone ary in kids with ADHD. Okay? So you look at that now I' say. okay the lawyers those who would hold. these companies accountable would look. at that and then they would start. looking at the data and I'll show you. some what some of the data shows we.

talked about the Amish earlier for. example okay the Amish that I represent. in New York um there's three schools the. New York uh health department decided. that it doesn't like what the Amish. beliefs are it wants the Amish to adopt. their beliefs and abandon their real. religious beliefs and to give their kids. these vaccines. Otherwise, they were. going to impose crushing fines on these. three Amish schools. Three schools, by. the way, which means a room, no. electricity, a teacher, you know what I.

mean, on Amish land. They don't take tax. money. They pay taxes, but they refuse. to take tax money. Taught by Amish. teachers. And so we amongst those families of. those three schools, there was like 160. or something kids. And what we did is we. we did a survey. We asked them, "What. health conditions do those kids have?". Those 160 kids, many of them already. older, too. So, you would know their. health outcomes. And this is all in our. court papers. This is all on a federal. docket. Anybody can go and read it for. themselves. Okay? Amongst those.

children, you would expect to have. because like one in 10 kids. approximately have asthma, you would. expect to have like nine cases of. asthma. you'd expect to have six cases. this five. They have none, zero. of the chronic health conditions. plaguing kids in America today. And the. approximately 10 or so studies that have. been done, and I'm going to bring this. back to my legal point, the. approximately 10 or so studies that have. done that compared kids with no. exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids.

that have had one or more vaccines, show. the same outcome. Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of. the chronic health issues that face kids. today in America. Kids with one or more. vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic. health issues facing kids today. Now, that data all exists. I put those. studies in my book. Anybody can read. them. I even put the Amish information. in my book. It's all cited. You can go. look at it yourself if you're out there. Some of them are even on PubMed. The. market could have corrected for that if.

you could hold those pharma companies. accountable, but you can't. Um, is it correct that the only. instances of autism they found in Amish. kids were adopted kids? >> Um, there are data and some reports that. reflect that, but if we so there are that, but those. are more news reports. Those are not. somebody will criticize you. By the way, you're going to get criticism and say, "Well, that's not a peer-reviewed. study.". >> Well, I had a follow-up question that.

maybe clarify. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. Well, and so, uh, we can say we. can go move on to what does the. peer-reviewed literature show if you. want. >> The follow-up question would be, are. they even being diagnosed? So, if. they're getting Amish care and Amish. teachers and Amish, is it possible that there are some kids. that are just behaving odd that would be. diagnosed? Like, this is the criticism. Yes. And people say like this is when. you hear some mainstream suit talking on. television. Well, there was always.

someone odd when we were kids. You know, there's no they just the diagnosis is. different today. That's why it's one in. 12 boys in California. They're. overdiagnosing. And I'm like, no, no. I. I have friends that have I have multiple. friends that have nonverbal children. That I never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a. common thing. It was very, very, very. rare. the notion that uh autism is just. better diagnosed and that's the only. reason for the increase is um I don't.

know a better word for it than they say. nonsense. Okay. Um uh uh even if you. look at the because they've changed the. DSM5 which is what we're up to the. diagnostics manual that is the. psychiatric manual that has the criteria. for diagnosing autism. It has changed. over time, but when you even just look. at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has a very good data on. from the 70s and onward into today, it's. exploded. Okay. So, that the notion that.

we just have better diagnosises is not a. serious point. But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors. >> Do they go to Amish doctors? >> No. Okay. >> They go to regular doctors. The Amish. >> The Amish, for example, can even go in a. car. They just can't drive a car. Well, so they can get Uber. >> There's different I I should be I should. be more I should be clear about that. >> just like every religion there are. different you know. >> okay. >> communities and so there's like old old.

line Amish and then there's old line. Amish and so you know and Christianity. and. Islam and Judaism and all different you. know there's different degrees of black. hat Jews and there's so forth. So um um. in many respects um uh they do still go. but you know as um I was told by one of. the main folks who I interact with there. and I've been up there and I've slept. there and I've interacted with them he. told me he said yeah you know um there. are a few that mistake got some vaccines.

and he goes one of those kids they just. don't act right he said it to me but we. don't see that with our other kids and. I'll tell you this about the Amish. community. they don't have phones. not not not the not uh you know. smartphones uh they have old school. phones some of them they don't have TVs. when they're with their kids they're. with their kids when they're there at. the end of the day they really are are. so much more in tune when I spent time. with them and when I went up there I.

mean it's incredible you know we have. lost it's a hard thing to experience. maybe for somebody who keeps like maybe. the closest thing I think it was like. those who observe the Sabbath. biblically, you know, so they're just. they're just totally locked in. They. locked in with their families for a day. or or things like that. And so they're. very in tune with their kids. They know. if those kids have health issues and. those kids don't have those issues. But. forget the Amish. Go to the rest of the. kids in the other studies that are not. Amish studies. The 10 other studies that.

I just told you about, one is three. pediatric practices that have vaccinated. unvaccinated kids. there there there are. a whole line of studies of nothing to do. with the Amish community. But if you do. want to focus on autism, okay, which is. just one potential issue from vaccines, by the way, um what you find. in the peerreview literature is that 40. to 70% of parents who have a child with. autism report, still report that they.

believe vaccines cause their child's. autism. Okay? 47%. That's after how much. billions of dollars to try to tell them. and gaslight them and convince them that. it's not aut that vaccines don't cause. autism. No m apparently no matter how. many you beat these families, they're. just not going to change their lived. experience. And what vaccines do they. point to? They often they point to the. vaccines given in the first six months. of life. When you ask them, "What. vaccines do you think cause your child's. autism?" They'll say, "The vaccines.

given in the first six months of life.". And then they'll also point to MMR. vaccine which is given no earlier than. one year of age. Okay. And so on behalf. of ICAN which is the informance and. action nonprofit that our law firm. represents, we sent a freedom of. information act request foyer request to. the CDC and we said hey your website. says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that. show that he B vaccine given three times.

in the first six months of life do not. cause autism. Please give us the studies that show. that DTAP vaccine given three times in. the first six months of life do not. cause autism. Same thing for IPV. vaccine, for uh PCV vaccine. and for uh uh um. HIV vaccine. Okay. Each one of those. vaccines is given three times each in. the first six months of life. 15. injections. Okay. Okay. [snorts] You say vaccines.

don't cause autism. These parents are. saying these vaccines cause their. child's autism. Provide us the studies. They never gave. us the studies. I sued them in federal. court. I didn't go to Texas. I sued them. in Southern District of New York. Okay. Not the friendliest territory to bring. that kind of lawsuit. Okay. days before the hearing, I get a a list. of 20 studies finally from also from the. DOJ because they represent the CDC. Okay, maybe they think I don't read. So, I.

looked at the 20 studies. I read them. 19 of them have nothing to do with the. vaccines given in the first six months. of life. They were all either MMR. studies or studies of an ingredient that. wasn't in those vaccines. One of them. was an Institute of Medicine review. from 2012 that canvased all the. literature on whether DTAP vaccine does. or does not cause autism because the CDC. and HERSA which is the agency in in HHS.

that fights vaccine injury claims. asked the M to look at whether DTAP. causes autism because it remained one of. the most commonly claimed injuries still. according to them. Okay. And the. Institute of Medicine would came back. and said we could only find one study on. DTAP and autism and in fact it showed an. association between vaccine DTA vaccine. and autism but the IM threw it out. because they said there's no. unvaccinated control in it. So they. threw out the studies based on VA's data. if you know what that is. So I called up.

the DOJ attorney this days before the. hearing and I said I got the list of 20. studies. I said, "Are you sure that your client, the CDC, wants to settle this case basically on. the basis that these are the studies. they rely upon to claim that vaccines. don't cause autism? That the vaccines in. the six first six months of life do not. cause autism because that's what the. lawsuit was about that foyer request.".

He went, he called me back and he said, "Yeah, they want to settle it." I said, "All right, give him I gave him another. chance." Those 20 studies were put into. a settlement agreement between the CDC. and ICAN, my client. The DOJ signed it. on behalf of the CDC. I signed it on. behalf of my client. And a federal judge. in the Southern District of New York. entered as an order of the court in. 2019, I believe it was. And there it. was. I mean, I I had done years and. years of work fighting with them to try. and figure out, show me the vaccines. don't cause autism. This was the.

crescendo. This was the end. I mean when. their back was to the wall they had they. had nothing. There are no studies. They could not produce one that showed. the vaccines given in the first six. months of life do not cause autism. And. here's the thing they left out. There is. one study out there regarding hep. vaccines and autism. It's from Gallagher. and Goodman out of the University of. Stony Brooks in the peer-reviewed. literature and it showed that kids that. got he vaccine versus those that did in. the first month month of life had three. times the rate of autism. statistically.

significant. Gallagher Goodman, University of Stony Brook, it's on. PubMed. That is the only study of HEP. vaccine and autism you will find in the. peer-reviewed literature. If you're. going to do it based on the science on. the published literature, that's the. only one out there. That DTAP vaccine. study is the only one out there for DTAP. given in the first six months of life. So when this narrative, which you hear. all the time on these panels, on these. news shows, vaccines do not cause. autism, that has been thoroughly. debunked. Where's that come from?

>> Vaccines. Amen. That's why I call my book vaccines. >> Cheers. Have you seen those live shows. where crowds cheat? >> But this is what I'm talking about. This. is why I wrote the book. I wrote the. book because in 10 years that I have. litigated hundred 200 lawsuits against. federal and state health agencies that I. have deposed the world's leading. vaccinologists including Dr. Stanley PL. and you go down the list uh and chasing. them when they're in a deposition when.

they are back as against the wall in a. federal or state lawsuit and they have. no choice but to admit the truth or give. the evidence put up or shut up. What I. have found is that the claims they make. about vaccines versus the reality are. completely different and it is. disjarring. When I came into this, I. would had you told me, "Yeah, they don't. have any studies that show vaccines. don't cause autism in first six months.". I'd be like, "You're crazy. Get out of. here." They tell you it's thoroughly.

debunked. Thoroughly studied. The most. studied thing ever. They have a mountain. of science. Joe, there's a mountain of. studies. You know how big it is? It's so. big. And you know what's on top of that. mountain? another mountain of studies. You know how another mountain there's so. many studies. They're drowning in. studies that vaccines don't cause. autism. But then when you demand it, not. the bull crap that they say on TV, but. you actually demand it. That's the. result. And that you could pull it up on. the internet by the way that that that. that that.

court stipulation. It's right there. You. could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley PL. and the world's leading vaccinologist. where I said to him I saidd doctor you. know and you have this clips on the. internet I said I said there's no. studies that support that dab does not. uncle autism right and he and first he. said well I I said well what do you. think the concluded he goes well I would. assume they said it doesn't I I showed. it to him he goes oh it's the world's. leading vaccinologist he didn't even. know this goes oh okay there are no. studies okay he goes so I said shouldn't. you wait until you do shouldn't you wait.

until you have the studies that show. that DTAP doesn't cause autism to then. tell parents that vaccines don't cause. autism. You know what he said to me? No, no, I don't wait. I don't wait because I. have to take into account the health of. the child. He said, I said, so for that. reason, you're willing to tell parents. that vaccines don't cause autism even. though you don't have the data to. support it? He said, absolutely. You can. play that clip if you want. It's on the. internet. And then I deposed in a case. about vaccines and autism. It was about.

it Dr. Katherine Edwards who is one of. the four I guess leading vaccinologists. in the world one of the four editors of. the medical textbooks on vaccines which. is called Platkins vaccines I deposed. her about vaccines and autism and I said. do you have a study that shows he B. vaccine doesn't go to autism this was. after this court stipulation the court. order I told you about she didn't have. any for he for the ones I just to the. first six months of life so yes they say.

on TV it's thoroughly debunked but I'm. telling telling you that is a belief. that is not science, that is not fact, it is not based on data. It is based on. pure belief. >> And they say it just like they say, you. know, Jesus Christ is Lord. >> I think they believe actually in. vaccines more because they'll kick kids. out of school in in some arch dascese. even and in some other Christian schools. far less. Most arch dasces won't if the. kid won't get vaccines. So, I actually.

think they believe in vaccines more than. Jesus in some places, by the way. [sighs]. >> What an amazing job of gaslighting and. propaganda they've done. >> But I I just want to I just got to be. clear because anybody hearing this might. think that that just sounds crazy, >> but I implore anybody who heard me say. that, pull up the court order yourself, look at it yourself, watch the. depositions, go to PubMed, see for. yourself. Oh, and by the way, do not. rely on AI because I've done this fun.

job with I'm like I'm like, do you have. B vaccines cause autism? It's been. thoroughly researched and there's no. studies. I go, okay, great. So, how do. you and I say to AI? I go, how do you. reach a scientific conclusion? Well, you. use peer-reviewed studies. I go, wonderful. So, to conclude that he. vaccine does not cause autism, you need. peer-reviewed studies. That is correct. Wonderful. Now, please in a list these. studies that show hep vaccine does cause. autism. D. uh d give me three studies. I've had I.

I've had uh chatbt makeup studies. literally hep vaccine does not cause and. I'm like that doesn't exist. Give me the. pubmed number. You are correct. I aim to. provide uh a valid information but in. this instance I fell short. Literally. made up a I'm not joking. I made up a. study. I've had it. I fell short. I lied. to you. >> I do I've done this for fun with. friends. And so I'm like watch this. Watch this. And finally, I'll get it to. admit that the only study is the. Gallagher and Goodman study. That that. is the only study. I will get it to. admit it takes about often 45 minutes to. an hour.

>> Really? >> Yeah. It takes a while, but it will. eventually admit it. And they all do it. Grock does it too, by the way. Grock's. better, by the way. Better, but it's. bad, too. And they will they will say, you know, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up. And unless you. know, like I know the universe of. studies. I know it's. >> Can I ask you this? Do you think that. these large language models are. programmed. with certain truths that they can't. fight against? Or do you think it's. because they're pulling from so much.

on the internet and so many. narratives on the internet from. trusted sources that'll tell you that. vaccines don't cause autism? Like. there's a ton of, you know, major. newspapers, major magazines, there's a. ton of them that have talked about how. it's been thoroughly debunked. And then. they'll quote doctors and scientists. that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say, "We've done exhaustive. studies. They've been thoroughly. debunked." They'll say that and they'll. print that. And so is the is the AI just. pulling from so much online.

that it like looks through all the noise. and say like 89%. say vaccines do not cause autism. Therefore it must be true. or is it programmed to say hey this is. what you say vaccines don't cause. autism. >> You must hold me in very high regard. You you've held me out as an you you've. held me to incredibly complex economic. questions and now language language. model questions. So, I appreciate you're. very smart guy. I appreciate the. compliment so far on that score. With. that said, um [laughter].

um I mean I I I I don't know the answer, but I will speculate because I don't. know the answer that u I I'm going to. guess I'm guess I'm really guessing um. that it might be a mix of some. programming because Google for example I. you know if you go and you search for. Aaron Siri substack. You get Paul off at Substack. Why? How.

in the world do you get Paul OFF AT. SUBSTACK WHEN YOU SEARCH for mine and. mine's like it's not even like on the. first page? I don't even think it's on. the second now. I maybe they fixed that. I don't know. >> So it some of that. >> is that using Google? >> That's using Google. >> Let's look right now. >> Last time I've done it. >> Let's go. Let's do it right now. Let's. do it right now. >> Let's do it. >> Cuz have you seen Robert Epstein's work? Um, >> Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a. few times, unfortunately last name. Uh,

but he has nothing to do with that. He. is a data scientist and one, well, I. don't know what his original background. is, but. >> what he does is. >> he is, uh, very vocal about how they're. using these coordinated, it's very. curated search results. And through. that, especially during uh election. times, they can take a lot of people. that are in undecided voters and swing. them a very noticeable number. Like I. forget what the number was, but it's a. large percentage, 10%, 20%, something.

like that. >> So if you Google something about say. Hillary Clinton for instance during that. first election, you would get all these. positive articles. If you Google Trump, you would get all these negative. articles. And if you, you know, asked it. certain things, it would give you things. that were completely contrary to that. So you'd look at that first. And I think. that's you and Paul off it. >> It could be. Maybe it's maybe it's fixed. at this point. >> How do you want me to word this? Cuz. that. >> Aaron series substack. >> Yeah, just do Aaron series substack. On. Googles.

are. >> But while he's pulling that up, I'll add. that. So I there might be some of that. Again, I'm on speculation territory. And. then separately though, >> so it goes right away to you. goes right. away to me this time. >> Oh, they you know what it is? They got. Jamie's [laughter] data and they. know from your metadata. >> like if if you ask a question in a word. way it might come up differently. It's. like what that's what I that's what I. did different try Aaron Siri injecting. freedom substack. See what happens that. could be the way we search for it.

[snorts]. >> See that shows up different. >> Oh well. >> see I'm telling you when you put when. you add words it kind of really up. all Google searches. Yeah, but I don't. see Paul Offet in there. >> I don't see Paul Offett in there. >> Have you talked about this publicly. before? >> No, never. >> Oh, too bad. >> No, I just did. I just This happened. This was actually literally just a few. days ago. Um. >> Well, I think one of the things that. Robert Ebstein because of being he's. been on my podcast, been on multiple. podcasts, but he's been talking about. the dangers of these curated search. engines and how it's.

>> it's essentially election rigging. like. you're you're manipulating a. statistically significant number of. people to one side or the other and you. could do it by curating search engines. >> Well, the experiment we just did might. reflect that my first theory. might be less of that, right? Cuz look, there it is. It's happening. I I that's. why I said I have no idea. I'm. speculating. >> But it could be pre it could not. >> it could be your own algorithm because. maybe you were searching for Paul. Offett. Maybe you had Googled Paul off.

full of just before that. [laughter]. >> I don't need to Google that. Uh uh. that's not I don't need to. I've had. >> I don't know when they've added this, but they've they definitely added on the. screen what they call personalization. for these results. >> Aha. Results are personalized. Try. without personalization. >> That could have something to do. >> Interesting. Well, let's try it without. personalization. Let's see if it. changes. >> Well, I'm already done a different. >> Oh, you already put Paul off in there. I. start searching for. So if you do. without person, it doesn't delete the. prior.

>> Interesting. Personalized. It knows. you're right. >> We started using AI a long time ago. >> Knows you're a radical. >> But I would I would I would speculate. that the probably bigger component is. the uh who's got again it comes back to. who's got the money to understand how. these AI algorithms work and to maybe. put the stuff out there that it's going. to most likely read from. I mean, when. you do AI, you you can get that I see. that like crazy scroll of all the things. it's looking at, right? So, if I've got. if I am a pharma company and I've got a.

multi-billion dollar budget every year. to influence and to market and so forth, >> you know, I'm I'm going to deploy that. in in the way that's probably the most. effective. One of the things I probably. would do is maybe do the things that. would influence the results on AI. >> potentially. >> Yeah, I would too. Especially if there's. no regulations. That's the weird thing. about curating search engines. If it's. like your search engine, you can kind of. do whatever you want. Especially if your. company like wasn't it like one of the.

major tech companies after Donald Trump. won in 2016 that had meeting that were. like we can't let this happen again. Was. that Facebook or Google? Do you remember. Jamie? It was like very famous that. people were like what are you talking. about? You why what how can you say. that? How could you even say that? Even. if you you're right. Like the idea that. you can somehow or other stop someone. from being elected if the public wants. that person to be elected cuz you. disagree with it is kind of a crazy.

thing to say out loud. >> Well, you know, I'm thinking more about. your question. So, when we found that. thing with Paul Offet, when we found. that thing with Paul Offet a few days. ago, my social media manager, my and my. I've got a you know, got a lot of folks. at my law firm. Um, and we have somebody. who does like Google Adwords stuff and. and and and SEO stuff and then we have. another guy who does the the web related. stuff. Um, I know they did some things. and maybe with my little measly budget. it had that effect. >> And so Matt, so if that would go to my.

second point that with enough dollar and. and who cares about my I mean I don't. think pharma cares about my substack. Trust me, they're not scared of my. substack. 50. No, I don't know about. that because even if you don't have a. ton of subscribers, it's still out there. and all it takes is one podcast. appearance like this one and people go. there and then all it takes is one. investigator reporter to talk about it. to get a. >> It's a weird time for stuff. >> All right. Well, then let's see if two.

weeks from now it goes back. >> Yeah, they'll they'll [laughter] never. put it back. They'll never put it back. But if you guys did do something about. it, that does make sense that they they. corrected it and you complained about. it. >> Well, no, I think that you know they had. brought up doing like keywords and stuff. like that cuz I did there was some. emails about I remember trying to fix. it. I'm amazed that it looks like it. did. >> Well, I don't want that smoke. You know, they don't. >> So, maybe it's, you know, it just kind. of sh. >> They just need to be Yeah. shine light. on it. It's the best disinfection.

sunlight. Um, I I just don't like the. idea of curated search engines. It's. really spooky. It's It's no different to. me than curating information on social. media platforms based on whatever your. ideology is. Like, I don't think you. should be able to do that in terms of. like, I don't think the company should. be able to tell you you can't see. certain things. And YouTube was terrible. about that during the pandemic. All the. things that turned out to be true could. have got you banned from YouTube. The. lab leak theory kick kicked off. You. know, the the fact that the vaccines.

even if you get vaccinated, you're still. you still can catch COVID. Remember that. was a breakthrough infection. It was. extremely rare. Extremely rare. breakthrough infection. Never heard of. it. Yeah. >> And now it's everybody. Literally. everybody. And then it became this weird. everybody did these weird mental. gymnastics where they started repeating, "Oh, but it stops hospitalization and. death.". >> And like what what are you talking. about? You never said that before. You. are saying that they were saying it.

stops hospitalization and death and you. don't even have anything to gain here. You just don't want to be wrong about. your decision to get injected and to. promote it, which is nuts. It's like. people are doing the man's work for the. man. They've signed up as volunteers in. the propaganda army and shaming all the. people that didn't go along with it and. never apologizing. No one wants to. apologize for calling people plague rats. and telling people that they should have. their children taken away from them. Nutty, weird, dystopian They don't.

realize that they are the they are. creating more vaccine hesitancy with. that kind of conduct than anything that. you and I could do on this podcast at. all cuz you know and like they say you. know the CDC web page on vaccines and. autism has now been updated and it says. now. >> that there's effectively no studies to. show the vaccines in the first six. months of life do not cause autism. now. says that and that we have mis that the. CDC has misled the public on that score.

and people trash the mainstream media. trash Bobby for that while instead of. celebrating it as an opportunity to. correct course of transparency honestly. people are more likely to trust our. federal health agencies when they're. honest when they're apologized when. they're willing to admit mistakes they. don't they're not there yet though. unfortunately. >> no because it's it's still a part of. their political ideology. It's a part of. their clan and they they don't even. think about it. They don't look into it. They don't read any studies. They don't.

read any synopsis of any studies. They. just go full boore ahead. It's been. thoroughly debunked and they'll argue. with you. It's been thoroughly debunked. This is all nonsense. many depositions. I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious disease. experts and immunologists where I will. say something about you know these. studies show that for example the. studies show that children that have had. cancer and measles have lower rate of. cancers and they'll go that's that. that's just nonsense. Those studies are. just junk. I'll say have you read the.

studies? Uh no. Have you seen them? No. But see, but they knew already, you. know, they've already reached that a. priority conclusion. I remember in my. deposition not to go back to autism of. Dr. Edwards where I said to her, um, you. have any studies show that he B vaccine. does not cause autism? She said, no. I. said, but there is a study that shows. three times rate of autism amongst kids. that didn't get he vaccine. And she. says, well, I don't think that's that's. not a good study. I said, what study is. that? She goes,

"Well, why don't you show me the study?". And because she hadn't read [laughter]. it, she doesn't know. >> Why don't you show me the study? She. >> that's that because it doesn't fit. within the the you know the belief. system unfortunately when it comes to. this. And it's so easy cuz like you. said, all you got to do is just say. they're just an antivaxer and you're. done. >> Exactly. Exactly. And it's all when when. the entire when you have a company like. whatever company it is whether it's.

Google or Facebook or whatever and that. company operates on an ideology that's. not grounded in reality and then they. enforce it across their platform. It get. it's it's very frustrating and really. nutty to watch and just thank God there. exists some alternatives like you would. need a you need a crazy person worth a. ton of money like Elon to just go and. buy it and then also show hey it's still. the number one platform for distributing. information. >> in the same way that what what Elon did.

for social media if he could do that for. search. >> that'd be great but I think search is. dying. >> I don't think search AI is going to take. over. I don't see. >> I hardly ever search things anymore. >> Everybody goes to AI these days from. what I could see. >> because I can ask a question like how. did this come about? I could I could ask. follow-ups. Are there any dissenting. opinions? I I love doing that. >> It's good, but it also requires less. thinking. So, it's bad in that regard, but yes. >> Well, it depends on how you're using it. When I'm using it is usually when I'm. writing, I'm writing about a certain. subject. I'm like, well, who who were.

the first people to discover these Aztec. pyramids? You know, I I'll get into. something like that. Like, what were. they looking for? Like, uh, you know. what I mean? And like you could it's. almost like you're talking to an expert. So instead of. >> it being like something that I use to. think for me, it's like a super smart. friend I'm bouncing questions off of. >> And you could find so much about things. so quickly as opposed to having to go. through article after article after. article and like and that's the one I'm. looking for. What did court how did he. trick those people and give them up. their land? There's only 600 of.

them. How'd they do that? You know, like. you need to f like AI is fantastic for. that kind of But if you're using. it all day, like a lot of kids in my. school, um, my kids schools are getting. busted for writing papers that are 100%. AI. >> Like they were a. [laughter]. >> It's like seventh grade. It's like PhD. genius level paper. Uh, yeah. >> These 12y olds are wizards. >> Yeah, >> it's hilarious. >> It's It's not good. I mean, you saw you.

saw those studies that came out. I. don't, again, not my area, but and I. don't know. I've only read the. abstracts. I don't I don't know. But. that that the more that technology been. adopted into classrooms, it appears the. more detrimental it has been and. actually the the the markers of what you. would consider an educated or education. or intelligence. >> 100%. It's a distraction. It's like it's. there's no way it could be good. You're. you're on TikTok all day. >> But if you're using AI, the one thing I. will say depending on the topic, but you. probably should do it for all topics is.

never just rely on the output. You got. to ask if show me the primary source and. look at it yourself. It's so critical in. every area, >> especially if it's something. controversial. I mean, generally, I'm. asking it questions about something I'm. looking up that's not that controversial. in terms of like whether or not it's. argued. >> You ever look up yourself? >> No. >> No, I don't. >> Jesus Christ. I don't look up myself. ever because I don't want to know. I. don't want to know people's opinions. I. I don't want to know what it thinks of. me. I couldn't care less. I think it's. much better to just keep on going. If. you're in a public eye, including you.

now, everyone is subject to an opinion. And there's certain opinions that are. just they're not people that you would. ever want to talk to. And those kind of. people exist. There's going to be shitty. people out there. And their opinion. written down looks just like your. opinion. Better to not have any of it. Better to not watch any videos. Better. to not listen to anything. Just be a. good internal judge. Be objective about.

your own self and be self-critical to. the point where it's healthy and leave. it alone. I was watching like I was. talking to this the other day. I was. watching this lady who was this very. boring not very exciting lady talking. about how bad the Beatles were and I was. like you should shut the up. [laughter] Like no the be the Beatles. are incredible. You're just a. You're just a dullrained dork. just wandering through life spread. But. you're allowed to. You're allowed to. have those opinions. It's like good luck. finding a bunch of people that agree. with you, but you're allowed to try. But.

I don't want to be a part of it. I don't. want to be washing swimming through. opinions all day long. I don't. think it's healthy. >> Yeah. But I I I do think facing the. opinions and the views substantive. opinions views of those that don't agree. with you is an important exercise in. life and in any in in every area. frankly. I mean I I'm you know uh when. it comes to the work that I do and you. know I'm I welcome having debates with. those who claim they are the vaccine.

experts. I mean I'm. >> Well, this is a we're talking about a. very different kind of thing than. looking up yourself. Yeah. You're. looking up hardline data and it's very. important what you do because it's crazy. to say that being honest in this regard. is courageous, but it is courageous. because I've seen you attacked. I've. seen crazy like that people said. about you and it's like good lord. Are. you paying attention to what he's. actually saying or like or are you some. bot from somewhere some bot farm.

in Vietnam that's been hired to push a. narrative? I don't know. But. there's there's a reality to data that's. undeniable that needs to be promoted. And I think that's what you're doing. There's a reality to the data. You. really I don't imagine a whole lot of. people are lining up to debate you about. this. >> Uh well, Paul Offford and I had an. exchange on the internet. First, we had. on Twitter. >> in person. >> in Twitter. No, he won't do it. So, we.

had it on Twitter and then he moved it. on to Substack and it's all there. It's. a great exchange. And I I've offered him. >> and and not just to be clear, not like a. gotcha debate. I've offered him to have. a debate where we each get 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get. to present the evidence. So, we have a. screen. We can put up our evidence and. we can go back and forth with equal. amount of times so nobody's talking over. each other. It's civil and it's based on. the substance. I've offered him to do.

that. But the truth is, I don't need to. debate him. I've already debated the. world's leading vaccinologist, Dr. Stan. the Pluck, in a 9-hour deposition. People talk about you want we should. have a vaccine debate. Well, I've done. that. It's nine hours. It's all on. internet and you can watch it. And when. my client put it out there and it ended. up on YouTube, >> uh this was many years ago. It had like. millions of views at one point and then. YouTube took it off and then people keep. putting it back on and it's just a. deposition. It just keeps coming back. and forth and back and forth. It's just.

>> Why are they t YouTube? Leave it up. Stop. >> Well, I don't know if they're still. taking it down right now. >> Yeah. I hope now the climate's changed. enough. >> They used to used to take it down and. down and so and I've, you know, and I've. done Senate hearings where they But. those vaccinologists, they don't want to. show up anymore. >> I offered Peter Hotz that opportunity on. the podcast and I told him I would. donate $100,000 to whatever charity of. his choice. >> and he like mocked that number as being. insignificant. I'm like, "Well, tell me. what the number is." like just. come on. And I was going to have him and. RFK Jr. because he was talking about me.

having RFK Jr. on that saying a bunch of. lies and like well instead of saying. that and I think he god I forget what. term he used for me. I'm like Peter. you've been on my podcast twice so what. the are you talking about? Like. what why are you behaving like this? This is crazy. [laughter]. What did he call me? Like it was. something about. it was some alt-right adjacent or. neofascist adjacent. >> The point is it was adominum instead of.

substance. You gave him an opportunity. to show he was right in front of the. world. He is the vaccinologist. Bobby just a lawyer obviously will drool. on himself. Like debate him. What's the. big deal? only after he did that. >> I didn't I didn't he had said all this. stuff about me because Bobby was on the. podcast and it was one of the rare times. that I have to go after that ever go. after anyone on Twitter, but I was like. stop. Why are you saying that? This is. stupid. >> And and I remember a whole bunch of.

people added in like they were willing. to add I I thought it was over I forgot. the number. It was in like a million, two million. >> It was in the millions. >> Willing to and he still would not sit. down and do it. And the and the argument. that you'll often hear is they'll say, "Well, I'm not good at debating." It's, you know, he's a lawyer. He'll use. lawyer tricks. >> Peter Hotz a lawyer. >> No, no, no. >> He's a lawyer. Bobb's a lawyer. >> Bobb's a lawyer. Or they'll say that. that he's a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. You. know, and what they don't but but you. know, >> data wins. >> Exactly. The.

>> And I would let that data win. >> Substance should win. >> I want you if you're right, I want to. know. Like I don't know. You. tell me. >> I'm willing to debate Peter Hotes here. any day. I don't think he's going to do. it. >> I'll pull off it. Any of them. They can. all In fact, Stanley Plin just wrote me. a letter um after all these years after. I deposing first time ever. Wrote me a. letter. >> Really? What did he say? >> He said, "I heard you wrote a book. I. heard you wrote a book and um your. deposition went very very long and I. wasn't prepared enough." He's world's. leading vaccinologist and I will be.

credited with saving millions and you. will go down in history as the one who's. harmed and killed children. >> Wow. That's what he wrote me a letter. and I I wrote him back a response. I and. I and I said look. >> I said Dr. PL and I said thank you for. your letter. I appreciate that you're. writing me finally because I've reached. out to him before one time at least. And. I said look I I said I I think we can. agree on one thing. I I we want to save. as many children as possible. I I want.

to save children from infectious. disease. That's important. I agree. But. I also want to save children from the. harm from these products. They matter. too. They're not just they shouldn't be. accepted casualties. The tens of. thousands of families contacted my law. firm. Devastating harms from these. products. They they matter too. And I. said, "Let's work together. Let's work. constructively." I said because look at. the end of the day. if you don't address this if you don't. address this issue I said history is not.

going to remember you for the good. history is going to remember you for all. the harm you caused because when people. look back in history at products that. caused devastating harm which vaccines. can do they don't remember the good. those products did they remember the. harms that people ignored that were. overlooked and and those were just cast. aside I said that will be your legacy I. said but there's time to correct it. hasn't written me So, I posted I posted. both letters on my Substack and I. tweeted them out. So, this way the I. figured they could do some good that. way. So, they're available to everybody.

to read. Well, um I think it's a very. unique time that uh this message can get. out there because um what they did when. they removed liability and they gave. them blanket protection like that, they. they opened up the door to. a bunch of people that really don't give. a about you. They just want to make. as much money as possible. There's the. scientists. This I always describe like. these companies. You've got the people. that are making these drugs. You've got.

these really interesting, brilliant. scientists. And then you got the. money people. And the money people don't. give a They just want to make more. money. And they're both together. So you. have this weird contradictory world. where you have like some amazing. pharmaceutical drugs that helped so many. people and kept people alive and cured. diseases. And then you got the money. people who want everybody to get shot up. because it's going to make them more. money. And those two working together is. a very bad mixture. Especially when you.

have mandates. Then you mandate that. these people have to be able to inject. you and inject your children with this. thing that's going to make them money. and they have zero liability. Like how. could that possibly go well? Knowing. what you know about human beings, who. would sign off on that? I don't know. >> That's crazy. >> Well, you know, I had a business idea. for you. Okay. >> You want to hear it? It's a great. business idea. Hey, listen. We're going. to sell this product. Okay. We're going. to make Let's go. >> Okay. We can It's uh uh we can inject it. into people. Are you worried it's going.

to hurt people? >> Well, I'm a little worried and tell I. want to hear your story first. >> Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry about it because. government's going to give us some unity. liability no matter how many people we. hurt or kill. Okay. >> Oh, how did you work that out? >> Yeah, I know. Now, now the weird part is. you might be saying to me, you say, "Aaron, Aaron, wait a second. But, but. who the hell's going to take that?" And. I'll say, "Joe, don't worry. The. government's going to mandate it, too.". >> And you might say, Okay, but what if. people rise up? And I'll say, Joe, don't. worry. They're going to spend billions.

convincing the public it's the best. thing since sliced bread. And then. you're going to say, "But but what if. people still don't want to pay for it?". And I'll say, "Don't worry. [laughter]. The government through a a program. literally pays for half of all vaccine, guarantees payment to the pharma. companies even if people cannot pay.". So, >> sounds like a good investment. No. immune, no no liability, guaranteed. market, free promotion, guaranteed. payment. It's the most in if if it. wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane.

It is insane. And that is the business. model of vaccines. That literally is. what I just said. Think it's just so. you're right. It's perverse. But this. thing that you're just saying before. about like the money men who want to. just make money. Like look, we live in a. a capitalist system where we have tapped. into that. um that self-interest, but we try to harness it for good. So, every company has that to some degree. You know, people have that to some.

degree, but the idea with capitalism is. yeah, but you you got to channel that. and you got to do good. You got to do a. good product. You got to do a good. service. You got to do something. positive. And if you and if you don't, you'll be held accountable. So it's it's. got guard it's got guard rails. >> Yes. >> So you know it's it's you know because I. you know people people are like well. what are you you saying like people are. sitting there in the farm company with. horns and evil. No they're just but. they're just they don't have guardrails. and they've and they've gone totally. you know they've gone totally off the. rail. Do you like my business idea?

>> It's a great idea. Let me talk to my. lawyer first because I don't want to go. to jail. [laughter]. >> Well you're right. I would think it's a society I get. locked up for the rest of my life. especially if he killed a bunch of. people. And which is really crazy that. none [clears throat] of these people do. wind up going to jail. They pay giant. criminal fines and then they slip away. I mean, look at the Sackler family. They. they haven't been jailed, right? Wasn't. there like they they were going to get. immunity in favor of like $6 billion or. something crazy. But then a judge kind.

of put the kibos on that after. Painkiller, the Netflix docky drama came. out. >> Yeah. And and then and critically too I. would say it's like you remember during. the bank crisis there were the banks. that were too big to fail so they. wouldn't touch those the Sackler family. to me it's like the smaller bank that. they could there was a I mean it was bad. but they could sacrifice them they could. sacrifice that pharma company are they. going to sacrifice Merci. Fizer GSK any of those guys are they.

going to sac are they really going to. sacrifice them at the end of the day no. matter how much harm harm they do. >> I don't know. It's hard to see it. >> Well, listen, um I'm glad you're out. there. Uh and I'm glad you can. articulate these points so clearly and. passionately because people need to hear. it. They they need to know what the. actual data is, what the actual story is. about all of it. And it's better for all. of us. And as hard as it is a pill to. swallow, people need to get that glass. of water and start swallowing.

[laughter]. So, uh thank you very much. Thanks for. being here. I really enjoyed it. Uh, and. tell everybody your book. Did you do an. audio version of it? >> I did. >> Did you read it? >> I did. >> Oh, how much work was it? >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. That was a lot. Uh, I didn't. I didn't I thought I could read, by the. way. [laughter]. I was like, I could Yeah, just reading. And then I realized, but I had to read. the book. It was like I couldn't read. anymore. >> Oh, that's a lot. >> Oh my gosh. Did you have to ever have to. read an audio book? >> No, but I do ads for the podcast. And. Jamie will tell you, I'm always like,

>> I'm I'm always up sentences, then you got to redo them. It's brutal. >> Yeah. I. >> talk just talking is fine, but when you. have to read out loud like your your. tongue gets all tripped up and. >> I'm like I go to federal court. I got to. argue I got to go to Senate [laughter]. hearings. Like I'm like I'm like telling. the audio guy cuz we're in the studio. alone. I'm like I'm I really am. I think. I'm you I might seem like a total. >> but I I I probably am a but I'm. just a little bit I don't know. I felt. like a such a.

>> Folks that have read their own books and. they feel the exact same way. painful. Oh my goodness. [laughter] It's a But I. did it. I It's done. It's out there um. on Audible and the books on Amazon. Vaccines. >> All right, Aaron. Thank you very much. It was an honor and a pleasure having. you in here. I really appreciate it. >> Thank you. [music] Great. Thank you. again. >> Goodbye, everybody. [music].