Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> That's wild. I went in [music] cuz I. came in from I am I think I was living. at the time and I went in and uh and uh. I'm sitting in the waiting room and it. was like on a Sunday because it was I. was like I'm only in town for and Stan. was like I'll come into the office. I'm. like thank you so much. I had to have. some a filling or whatever I. [clears throat] needed. It's a kind of.

an emergency. So, I'm sitting in the. thing and uh and I'm not getting called. in, but the the the lad just No, no, there's not even a receptionist. And. Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the. first thing I hear is PIG. PIG [laughter] AND. I'm like, what is happening in there? It's in the other room. And Stan comes. in with his mask on. He goes, he goes, sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And. he goes [laughter] back and I hear. listen to to Hunter Thompson swear for. like 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is. amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay,

come on back." And Hunter's kind of. getting out and he goes, "Oh, you're. sitting down with this guy. He's a. assassin." [laughter]. And then he goes and he's got this jug. of clear uh of clear fluid and he's. like, "You're going to need a sip of. this." And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is. Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot.". [laughter] I'm like, "This is ethyl. alcohol." Like this is amazing. I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds. and I'm getting a sip and like. [laughter] and it was like 10:00 in the.

morning on a Sunday. >> Yeah. >> He was halfway through the drug. like where was this. >> in Beverly Hills? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood was. stand office. Yeah. >> Oh my god. That's amazing. It was it. really was amaz It was it was and I so I. had probably a total of seven minutes, you know, with him and it was like I I I. it could I could not have been a better. seven minutes. >> That's incredible. I went to the Woody. Creek Tavern just to go there cuz I know. he used to go there and like you could. like feel him in the building. You know,

there's all the pictures in the walls. It's cool little place. >> I mean those books Hell's Angels. and and you know, Fear and Loathing is. some of the best writing. I I just. like he really had his own. voice. Rum Diary was spectacular, you. know? It was like really descriptive and. punchy and interesting and. up. And he also just lived that. life. It was like. >> Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like. reading that book was like, "What the. fuck?" Like, "What is this guy doing? [laughter]. Grown men out there balding grown men. with spectacles running around.

>> I think there's lizards in the. [laughter] lounge. Like, you guys are. loosening." And he's got a day trip bag. filled with acid. Like, what the. are you doing, man? That was [snorts]. and it's great It's like you're. you feel like you're on the. adventure with him, you know? >> Yeah. No, it's a it's it's interesting. to watch the the evolution of his. writing too, you know? Like I read. Hell's Angels and it's like very. different, you know, but it's. >> and that's early when he's kind of. restrained and it was quite like for. that I think it was edgy sort of for the.

time, you know, like oh you're going to. get beat and chain whipped and stomped. by the angels and that was really edgy. and by the time they got to what was. fairly 72 or something like that, >> you know, he was just. >> Yeah, he was there. He found his voice. >> He did find [laughter] he was supposed. to be covering a race for like Sports. Illustrated. [laughter]. >> That's where Fear and Loathing came. from. But I lost my mind. [laughter]. >> Great. It's great, Hunter. >> We'll take it. >> Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you. guys. I've met you before, but very nice.

to meet, man. Thank you very much. I. love the movie. The rip is. great. It's really good. It's so. original and it's so it's so different. and it's, you know, it's like I love. those kind of movies, but it's not like. any one that I've ever seen before. Really solid movie. >> Thanks, dude. Thank you. >> It was awesome. so [clears throat] much. better than you hating it and having. [laughter]. the interviews where they're like, "So, I saw the movie anyway. How you guys. been?". >> We've had we've had a lot of those the. junk the press junkets where they come. in and the first thing that you know the. movie sucks if if they don't ask you.

anything about the movie, they come in, they go, "So, how you been?". >> You know, and you're like, "Oh. this is going to be bad.". >> Is it weird like the the transformation. of the film industry seems to like a lot. of it is moving towards these big. streaming movies now? >> Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because. where most people have gone to watch. them, right? Like, >> used to be the only place you go see. movies in the 40s. Like, every American. went to the movie every week basically. But it was because it was that or watch. the cows walk by. You know, that was the. only and then TV comes around. It's.

little and you see these little cals. But you know what happened was now this. is why this totally changed the whole. thing because you got 300 million people. 330 whatever it is watching you know. Netflix and it's a lot harder to get. people to go into the movies. There's. also YouTube. There's also Tik Tok. There's also my kids like it's hard to. get them excited about a movie. Yeah. That's what we had. I mean. >> Yeah. That was our I mean our teen years. were just every weekend we're at the. movies. >> Yeah. >> Um there's just no question about it. that you were going to go and usually.

not get into one cuz there were too many. people and then you just see what else. is playing and go to that. >> Well, it seems like it was kind of. slipping away because so many people. were watching streaming already and then. CO came around and everyone was locked. down and no one was going to the movie. theater and then it just set it. >> I had this like drama that was coming. out like right when CO hit. I really. like the movie performance movie. It's. an alcoholic guy whose kid guys kid dies. and becomes an alcoholic. It's dark. movie but I I loved it and I could tell. like we're No one's going to go. to see the theater, see this movie. And. it wasn't even that streaming streaming.

really blew up, you know, of course. during co. So, you know, look, they. rushed it onto streaming. People. actually saw it. I was like, look, all. things being equal, I'd like people to. see it, you know, and it's not like my. dad had an 11in black and white TV and. that's what was TV viewing now. It's. like $200, you got a 65 in flat. screen like and good sound. So, of. course, people are willing to and then. streamers also started making great. shows. You have adolescence. I don't. know if you saw. I think that's one of. the best things ever done. >> I haven't seen out of unbelievable. >> What is it? >> Oh my god. It's a It's a It's I I don't.

want to spoil too much of it. It's only. four episodes. >> They're all one shot. >> They're all one shot. Each episode is. one entire shot. >> Whoa. >> So, the cast they took, I think, I. talked to the director about it. The. cast took I think a week to rehearse. each one and then a week to shoot it. And so, so they they do it twice a day. It's the full hour. They would. choreograph the entire thing. Yeah. That's really. >> And then the acting is great. >> But that's that I mean just dismiss that. even you could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case. But um the.

performances and the writing and what. it's about it's it's as good as anything. you'll see. It's it's phenomenal. >> What is it on? >> Netflix. >> Netflix. Yeah. >> You know, you have like it's not this is. not even an anomaly. There's Baby. Rangers. There's Succession. There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks. You. know, it's just like, okay, well, they're doing great out there. It's. not like the sort of implied thing. before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as. good. We're not as interesting. It's a. serious. >> When we started, it was a there was a.

different I I mean, like George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big. thing, you know, he very famously, you. know, became this superstar on ER. That. show, 40 million people a week were. watching that show. It was the biggest. thing, right? Because [snorts] there. were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. and. and George never renegotiated his. contract. He wanted to work in movies. and it was like you can't go from TV to. movie. It's very hard. Very few people. can do it. >> and he really strategically and kind of. patiently like he joked that on the last.

episode he was on Anthony Edwards, you. know, his co-star was making a million. bucks for the episode and he was making, you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal. was. Like he could have renegotiated but. he would have had to give more years. >> That's how bad he wanted to get off TV. and do movies. That's how bad he wanted. to get off of the biggest TV show in the. world. Um because the there was such a. big kind of level change between. features and and TV. >> Well, it was a giant difference in. quality. It was also this the breaking. it up for commercials, right? >> It was just a different experience. >> It couldn't be, you know, there was all.

these rules like you can't say this, you. can't do that, you can't swear of. violence and n all the things people. want to see in movies, you know, and. then. >> and also it wasn't it wasn't as. interesting. And then now that's like. tethered to these schedules and all this. stuff or you get this like you. don't have a schedule and and you can. take a bunch of risks. So and that. started happening and then it was kind. of like well this all is just as good if. not better than what's in the movies and. >> well then movies started to move towards. more IP and. >> because it was hard to get people come. to the movies. everyone got scared and. thought, well, you have it there has to.

be a sequel or a superhero movie. >> And so an interesting little movie kind. of in the '9s when we kind of came onto. the scene, you know, there were a lot of. really good independent movies that were. being made. There was there was, you. know, it was a really great time to be. making movie. People were they were. making daring movies and and and then. everyone just got way more conservative. because it's huge. Like the business is. so different theatrically and streaming. because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money. behind it to publicize. Like you're.

trying to get everybody. >> spending about what the budget was to. make it to advertise it because you got. 50% of the theatrical. >> Yeah. Because you split it with the the. the movie house, right? The exhibit. >> So $25 million movie to break in. You. got to make $100 million. And so and and. you got to get everybody to not only. know about the movie but to show up like. that Friday night like that specific. time, you know, for that specific movie. And so did and to cut through all the. noise that you people are contending. with. And you know, >> so it just becomes about risk and nobody. wants to take the risk. So they don't. want to make something new because it's.

such an investment. We're going to lose. all our money. And the streamers. stepped into that and like no, you know, you didn't have to necessarily have a. star. You could try something more. interesting or didn't have to be a. superhero movie, whatever it was. And. also, I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like it's. first of all, it's expensive, right? You. take your whole family, it's $100. You're on a streaming service, $20 a. month. You can watch all you want. So, you can't be cavalier about like you're. just going to price it however the. you want and expect everyone to like be. indifferent to that. And then, you know,

also, you know, the idea of like for me, you. know, there's a lot of stuff I make that. decision like, do I want to see the. Odyssey on on a big screen? def. I went to a theater to just watch the. trailer for that movie and you know did. I at one battle after another I wanted. to go see in the theater but there's. movies with people that I really like. and respect where yeah and I got a good. system and but I'm like look I'll. watch and I might get tired or I won't. pause it and take a piss or the kids you. know whatever it is. >> that's conducive to my lifestyle you. know and so and most I see few I think. most people are yeah.

>> but there is the experience of seeing it. with a bunch of other people see an. awesome movie with a bunch of other. people it's like a shared experience. >> 100% I I always like. way more attent like like when I went to. see one battle on IMAX like you know. that feeling there's nothing like that. feeling I took you know two of my kids. and two of my nephews and my wife and we. all went and it was just it was like and. you're in with you know a bunch of. strangers but people in your community. and you're having this experience. together. I always say it's more like. going to going to church like you show.

up at an appointed time you you know. what I mean? doesn't, you know, the the experience of watching. at home. I think, >> you know, you're watching in a room, the. lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs. are running around, whatever it is. You. know what I mean? It's just a very. different level of attention that you're. willing to or that you're able to give. to it. And that has a big effect. And it. also ends up having an effect or is. starting to have an effect on how you. make movies. Like for instance, Netflix.

um you know standard way to make an. action movie that we learned was you. know you usually have like three set. pieces. One in the first act, one in the. second, one in the third and you know. you kind they kind of ramp up and the. big one with all the explosions and you. spend most of your money on that one in. the third act. That's your kind of. finale. Um and now they're, you know, they're like can we get a big one in the. first five minutes to get somebody, you. know, we want people to stay. >> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know. it wouldn't be terrible if you. reiterated the plot three or four times.

in the dialogue because people are on. their phones while they're watching. [laughter]. You know what I mean? >> And so then it's going to really start. to infringe on how we're telling. >> but then you look at adolescence who. didn't do any of that. It. >> didn't do any of that great. You. know what I mean? So I think it's and. it's dark too. It's tragic and intense. this like guy who's finds out these kids. accused of murder and it's like you know. and and there's long shots in the back. of their head. They get in the car, nobody says anything. I think there are. those look the these were feels more.

like the exception. It's so masterfully. [snorts] made that it feels a little. more like the except I hope it's not. My. feeling is just that it demonstrates. that you don't need to do any of that. to get people, you know what I. mean? Like, >> and I think, you know, yes, you know, like, look, hey, the town had the action. thing in the beginning, the first five. minutes cuz, you know what I mean? Like, it's a it's a common trick that you. would go like, let me grab them and get. him invested in the it's like the movies. that start with the hero hanging from. the cliff and now we're going to flash. back to the beginning and tell you how. they got there. Um it's it you know I.

always feel like uh you know complaining. about it makes me feel like one of these. guys was like when I was a boy like you. always want to freeze the culture at the. time when you I don't know felt more. like you know we used to have these. phones the are all these phone and. everybody's looking at their I get it. yes it's true also it's like supply and. demand people want to look at their. phone they can look at TikTok they want. you know they're going to do that I. think what you can do is make the. best you can make it really good and you. know people can still go to the movies. it's not I think we have this idea of.

that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is going to. destroy everything instead of like. >> what history suggests is that there's. like marginal encroachments. Things. shift. Yep. As television came along, there was less theater going and that's. still going to happen. And people are. still going to go to the movies because. of what you said. Like it feels like a. cool thing to do. I'm going to go see. The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a. theater, you know, no matter what fewer. of them, you could argue that's because. I have more choice or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right? If people want.

to watch a bunch of stuff at home. because they invested in TVs and cost us. money, they will. So, okay. But the. upside of that is like I can try to do. something hopefully that's like that. actually doesn't need to, you know, have. the most urgency to get you to come to. the theater with your family. That's a. little more experimental or risk-taking. or whatever in that way. >> Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's. no way you're going to change people's. viewing habits now. Yeah. I mean, what. percentage of Netflix is actually. watched on phones has got to be pretty. high, which is insane.

>> Yeah. >> Even watching on a laptop for me is kind. of like kind of sucks. You know, >> it sucks. >> That's a joke that I [clears throat]. like to make with every director I work. with. Like when they're really puzzling. over a shot or really grinding out. something, I go, you know, it's not. going to look as good on the phone when. [laughter]. they just everyone gets angry. >> Takes the weight out of their. sales, you [laughter] know? No, that's. going to look great this bigs. But keep around and lighting. that wall. >> It is weird though the the concern for. the algorithm like making sure that. people watch like look we've got data.

that shows within the first five minutes. when this happens they tune out. So. let's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe you. know he's got Kill Tony and now it's on. Netflix and so they're giving him notes. now and they can give him like but. they're not telling him what to do but. they're saying like this is when people. are tuning out and so let's you know. just so you have that data now decide. how you want to edit things. It's like, >> yeah, it is because because the. >> it's like the the bar for for.

walking out of a movie theater is a lot. higher than from just changing the. channel. Right. >> Right. And often times, you know, you. directors will want to make a movie that. is challenging and upsetting. And I. remember Terry Kenny, my my friend, great actor, and he he told me about the. experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New. York for the first time, right, in 76 or. whenever it came out. And he said, "What. I remember is not only the movie, but I. remember standing at the back because I. had got up. I got up out of my seat and.

I went, but I couldn't bring myself to. leave because I was so invested, but I. was so he was standing at the back by. the door watching the movie." And he. goes, "And there were two other people. standing next to me who were doing the. same thing. >> just cuz they were disturbed. >> because the movie was disturbing them so. much." Wow. >> Which is not a bad thing, right? So had. that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you. know, if somebody say, "Oh, I'm. disturbed." And they turn and they. change the channel. >> Yeah. >> Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't. make Taxi Driver, >> right? That's true. Like the investment. of going to a place is much greater.

>> Yeah. And one of the values of that is. that you could you look at movies from. the 70s, the first act was 25, 30. minutes, right? You know, the verdict. for a great movie takes a long time to. get. >> the deer hunter. Yeah. I mean, that's. >> and and you're right, like what you're. saying, the threshold for walk out is. really like any scene like, ah, I want. to watch Naked Alone, like whatever, you. know, you flip the So, you're. you are battling that. And you know, >> I watched Lemon's the other night, Steve. McQueen, and there's no one talks for. like five minutes. There's no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done,

just a bunch of people doing things. And. it's like, wow, you could make a diff. You could let it air out back then. Yeah. >> It was they had a different respect for. what it was. Like you were telling a. story and you're going to let it air. out. >> Well, they also knew where their. audience was. They were in a theater. that they. >> part of it was they wanted to come. there. I mean, this great story I like. is the first time they they. [clears throat] debuted a movie guys. with a with a projector in a room full. of people. It was a it was a movie of a. train pulling into the station. So they.

put the reel up and they did the. demonstration and they showed the people. and everybody missed it because they. were turned around staring at the. projector. They never [laughter]. seen anything like that, you know? So. it's like the techn is upstaging but. like you come for an event, come for a. thing, we're all going to be here. That's part of it. >> It's um I don't know. There's competing. arguments. So you can think, well, what. do you get to do? And some people just. go ahead and it. Like Jim Cameron's. Avatar, I'm going to make my three-hour. movie and people are going to come and. great. You know what I And people say, "Oh, well, you can't have a three-hour. movie." And he's like, "Well, I'm Jim.

Cameron and I've actually got the number. one and two and, you know, movies. I I. think I got this." He goes ahead and. does it. You know, this history is full. of people who got told a bunch of. conventional wisdom and we're like, "Yeah, but we're going to do something. different." And it, as it turns out, >> like that's actually what people want, too, is not for you to just repeat the. other that's been done before and. that worked before. >> This episode is brought to you by. Visible. Have you heard of Visible? It's. the oneline wireless with unlimited data. and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and.

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Terms apply. Limited time offer. Subject. to change. See visible.com for plan. features and network management details. One of the things I read that I thought. was really cool is you guys set. it up so that if this film performs. well, the entire crew gets bonuses. Yeah, >> that's awesome. >> Yeah, hopefully it's successful. [laughter]. >> I think you're going to get a house. if it doesn't great movie, man. It's a. fun movie, >> but it's it's it's good, but it's not.

like, you know, we're saints or. philanthropists. Like, it's completely. self- serving in my opinion because in. order to do the job well, everybody. who's working on it has to be really. invested and give a about the. result, not their paycheck only. And. sometimes you worry the crew that just. happen to be great anyway even though. they don't really have to care about it. and they do. And what we saw was like. that makes your movie better. And then. there's just the thing of like the. business is changing. You see these. strikes and work stop all these. questions in order for this I think to.

to survive and to be you know a good. middle class art artist you know. artisal craftsman job. We got 1,200. people that, you know, need to have. reliable jobs. And part of the. negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to get. Like, we have no participation. Like, used to working on movies, and it. happens to actors, too, where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard. and we put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away with all the. success.

>> and you, you know, my theory was was. with Matt was we were like, how about. where let's say, okay, it's just. fairness, right? this thing actually. blows up and does really well, you. should benefit from that. People have. been, you know, kind of given sort of. promises of of participation back and. that haven't come true. This is like the. crew. Everyone got their rates, everyone. got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise and actually. proving that it's not that if. there's success, you'll get some extra. little success, a little extra, a little. more, a little more. >> But also, like you said, because it's.

fair, you know, and and [clears throat]. and in success, the people who made the. movie should you know, should. participate in that. And and also with. this one, which was important to us, there's, you know, they they delineate. above the line and below the line, right? Like above the line being like. us, the director and the producers, >> um, and below the line being kind of the. more bluecollar side of our industry and. and. >> like painters, grainsmen, camera, everybody else, drivers, >> and so we just wanted we we and believe. like when we started this company, we.

were like, look, you know, we know who. makes our movie better, right? It's not. it's it's like they've this has kind of. been mispriced the whole time. Like the. economics have been wrong. Like when. there's a when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it. >> because you see a great director that. people rely on or an actor that's. considered bankable, they're all going, "Okay, I need all my people with.". >> Yeah. Every great director I've worked. with, and I've worked with a lot of. them, they have their regular crew. members that they that are ride or die. with these people because I mean, and. you said it to me when we were starting.

the company, you were like, >> you know, those department heads, you. know, who are each handling like, you. know, cinemat, you know, your camera. department, you know, your grip. department, your electric, like all. these this those people are. ultimately the people who make the movie. good. Like they make a demonstrable. difference in how good your movie is. And imagine once [clears throat] you get. a good flow with a great crew, like you. got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need. to bring in new band members. Let's. let's do this again. >> Yeah. And because then and then like you. have the situation where they all are. filmmakers too. Everybody knows what.

we're trying to do. So like then what. makes it, you know, you're trying to get. something special, something. interesting, something magical. in some moment. You have to like if. people are tight or they've been out of. shape or, you know, up the. environment, people aren't relaxed, actors can't do their best work. And. that does make a difference between. something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say. like, you know, it makes cognitive sense. to people, but if you look around like. what's Colin Anderson, camera operator, right? Not the cinematographer, >> but I would tell you he's the I think.

he's the greatest camera operator there. is in Hollywood. If you want evidence. that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a. camera opera in one battle after. another. You know, he's you look at his. resume and you're like, "Oh, that's. interesting. These are all great. movies." Now, is he personally. responsible for all of it? No, because. it's a collaborative medium. There is no. like you can be a painter and paint by. yourself. You can be a novelist and do. that, sing, write music. You can't do. this job alone. Like there are a lot of. people that go into it. You know, even. my real like Matt was the lead in the. last movie I did air that I directed.

Having somebody so good in your. movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't around or. playing games or being weird like that. sets this tone. Everybody else kind of. goes, "Okay, what's Damon like?" Oh, I. see this. We're taking it seriously, but. nobody's going to be a dick. We're all. going to do our job. We're not going to. take ourselves too seriously, but we're. gonna take the job really seriously. Immediately, everybody kind of snaps. into that. That trickle down effect goes.

across the whole thing. And the I think. the the best thing that I know how to do. as a director is just create an. environment where people feel like they. show up, people like me, they're rooting. for me. I can embarrass myself. and be bad and it's not going to be in. the movie and no one's going to make me. feel self-conscious and. >> I'm listened to my ideas. >> Yeah. And if I have something to offer, they're going to go, "Oh, that's a good. idea." You know what I mean? And that. that's kind of the trick to in my view. And then you're depending on the gifts. of all these people. Every single one of. them, you know, guys was, you know, some.

woman's assistant uh propm is coming up. with like the stuff that, you know, Phil. Knight found, you know, his waffle and. the shoe, they found it on eBay, like. that's an extra mile. You know what I. mean? And if you make people feel like. it matters and you give a and that. they're contributing and oh cool, let's. do a close-up of that. That's really. cool. >> They'll die for you. They'll go all the. way and it changes the whole. >> if you bonus them. >> Yeah. [laughter] doesn't hurt either. >> You know, it's not just all, you know, it's it's not just there's an actual. like codified bonus structure to say.

like we. >> this is a way of recognizing that. right? It's like in your paycheck, too. It's not just real and you guys develop. this. Is this so something that you. like? Kudos to you guys for addressing. this first of all and recognizing it and. having that attitude because it's so. important and it's so easy for big movie. stars to just think about themselves and. their own. >> We're communists, Joe. [laughter]. >> We're from Cambridge. keep the car running. [laughter]. >> No, no, but uh but but each each deal. has had this kind of each deal that.

we've done so far has been different. because we've made deals with, you know, different studios and platforms and. stuff like that. And. >> it just involved us basically. retroactively going, "Hey, we came in. under we did a great job. There's extra. money. Here you go." Mhm. >> This is the first time that we were able. to to actually create like a schedule. where it's like because and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that. without Netflix going, "Okay, cool. You. think you can make this work? Is this. we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we. wouldn't have been able to do it." So, we had to say, "Look, we're not asking. you to take a cut, but you know, if if.

we we can and we can tell you if the. movie is watched as many hours in the. first 90 days as like this movie a that. you all know what it is, then that's you. know 20% of your let's say, right? You. should take a hit." So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more. It's all just pegged to where you're at. just because that was the most fair idea. we'd come up with. >> So they gave us like five different. levels, right? Like the first couple we. hopefully we can hit and maybe the third. maybe we get and then it got to like the. fifth one. >> kind of like single double triple home. run. >> home run grand slam. The fifth.

one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers. or something like that. So it's. everybody who has a Netflix account. watches it and then like 10% of them. watch it again. And we were like K-pop. demon this is the biggest but that's. what happened. We were laughing and then. K-pop Demon Hunters came along and. actually did that. That's the first. movie that's ever. >> Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think a lot of autistic kids. watch that over and over and over. >> I haven't seen I haven't seen [laughter]. it, but I I mean somebody's watching it. over and over. >> Yeah. So, dude, people love it. >> I mean, it's you know the the the value.

of it is that because before this one of. the big things and everybody's fighting. over in the strike is like well share. your ch there used to be residuals, right? and residuals and it was only for. SAG and a few other things but it was. like and you knew if you had a line in. the movie and the movie a certain number. like at the box office well you're going. to get another 2,000 bucks and that was. a big deal you get that check in the. mail and like okay I can pay the rent. for another month and I can do that. but then it then there was this like. sort of illde what constitutes success. because streamer doesn't actually sell. another ticket if you watch that movie.

right it's hard to tell well why did you. sign up for this service right so for a. while everyone's looking at the first. thing that you looked that when you. subscribe to somebody, okay, you going. to go buy Hulu? What did you watch. first? The bear. Well, the bear must be. creating value for us. But it's you. can't assign a a strict numerical value. to it because it's unlike a box office. where you can go, well, you know, Oenheimer is a billion dollars or. whatever and you know that's another. billion dollars on our balance sheet. because streamers are doing a. subscription model, you know,

>> it's, you know, whether it's like a gym. membership where in the you. know, first of the year you're like, I'm. going to work out again. I'm going to. buy that annual membership. And you go. twice or you go to the gym every single. day, you're paying the same amount. >> Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not. like you're going to the movie theater. and there's seven movies playing. You're. opening up Netflix and you have an. unlimited option list. It's insane how. much content you could waste the rest of. your life sitting in front of Netflix. and then die and have, you know,

millions of hours more to listen to or. watch. And you're right, like when we. started researching that and built our. own data to poll people and examine all. this stuff, it's it's actually all the. library stuff that people are watching. all the time. if you said like the new. stuff is theoretically what what keeps. people with the subscription or whatever. but in terms of like volume of time I. think and doesn't come from them but it. looks a lot like you know going to watch. like orange and new black and the. episode of suits and the old Seinfeld. and Friends and what you know um Cupcake.

Wars or you know that that's what's cuz. Americans watch six hours of TV a day. right. >> that's crazy. >> and then the other six hours they're on. their phone how [laughter] does anything. get done how does anything get done. >> when you started to make this film like. what what is the process like how did. you guys agree on it like what did you. guys have it written first. >> was Joe so. >> before you knew you were going to. Netflix with it. >> yeah yeah he came to us with the script. and we've known Joe for a really he did. a movie his first movie is called Narc I.

don't know if you ever saw terrific. great movie. >> so we met him way back this 25 years ago. or something like that and so we met him. met him back then and Ben did a movie of. his4 four, I think. And so we've known. Joe for a really long time and kind of. been in touch with him over the years. and and he just sent this to us and said. and we read it and we thought it was. great and and and and bought it for the. company and then we started talking to. Joe about, you know, how he saw, you. know, how he wanted to do it and and he. suggested that we actually do the movie.

Um, and we and we were like, "Yeah, why. don't we do it? It seems. >> basically because we liked and part of. it's like we're not trying to just do. our movies. We want to be, you know, doing movies with all these the people. that we like and respect and and and. then, you know, the way we sort of set. it up is such that to try to get like. the historically the way it's worked is. like the, you know, a studio will own a. an IB or a script or whatever and then. you cut and they'll say, "Okay, we want. you to do it." Okay, well, how much? Well, how much did you get for the last.

one, right? And you go then what's the. budget? And then that's how they assign. a value to it, right? But like my belief. was well especially when these streamers. are like coming into the market and and. chasing stuff is like this movie may may. be worth more it may be worth less and. that like we're all just subject to that. so we'll try to get the best price for. it and we'll all share it you know prata. and essentially that that was the same. process we've done eight I guess movies. or so now and and uh we took it out and. you know people wanted it and then one. of the things that was really appealing.

about Netflix was that they were open to. this this idea that we've been trying to. institutionalize and was like, "Okay, great. That's that's really meaningful. because ideally it becomes a template. that other people go, hey, we want to do. that thing, you know, and then go, oh, here's the paperwork.". >> Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of. people say that they would want to do. it, but it now now that template exists. So, it's like plugandplay. So, if you if. you're not full of and you really. do mean that, then guess what? Just take. this and. >> and it also is going to let you, you. know, I hope like manage the risk. In.

other words, the argument you always. have is like, well, we got to. invest all this money in the movie. So, you can't have your protagonist be too. objectionable. That's too edgy or can't. be R-rated because it costs this. I get. it right. You're going to put all your. money into it. You want you don't want. money to disappear. You want to. make money. Okay. So, if like when we. wrote the first movie that Goodwill. Hunting, it was like we knew that had to. be a cheap movie. People talking in. rooms to each other because no one's. going to put a bunch of money into a. movie with us. >> Two that no one heard of. So, it was like, okay, what can we do?

That's interesting that and try to keep. it as inexpensive as possible so that we. can make the argument that someone. should make the movie. That same logic. like carries through every time you're. asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to. say, okay, now that we know there's a. reliable system where we understand that. like in success will actually benefit, we can lower, you know, the price. upfront for you so that you can have a. low barrier to entry so that you. can take the risk so that we can do. something really interesting. That's. that's an original idea. That's a you.

know that's an ABM or sinners or. Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and. then if it's successful we're not all. sitting here like where you. know you guys walk off with all the. money but and you can have that happen. in an ongoing way so that you can make. more interesting stuff. A lot of the. stuff that was going on with the strikes. was centered around AI and what AI is. going to do to the business. like what. where do you feel is going to be like. the biggest problem with AI? Is it going. to be with people's likenesses? Because.

there's a lot of that where they want. they want to use extras and own their. digital rights forever essentially be. able to recreate them in any kind of. film. But then there's also you're going. to have films that are written by. artificial intelligence. You're going to. have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird, right? >> It gets really weird. But there's. actually an area for him. >> Yeah, we've been spending time looking. at this. Like my belief is it's sort of. like what's going to happen with. electricity. >> Well, a lot of shit's going to happen. with electricity. Some of it's going to.

be good. Some of it's going to change. stuff. Some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be, you know, that kills a bunch of people. Like, it's it's it's opening a door that you. can't um you know, say, well, talk about. in a kind of a blanket way. But I think. with what I see is like for example, if. you try to get Chat GBT or Claude or. Gemini to write you something, it's. really shitty. And it's shitty because. by its nature, it goes to the mean to. the average. And it's and it's not. reliable. And it's I mean, I just can't.

even stand to see what writes. Now, it's. a useful tool if you're a writer and. you're going, "Uh, what's the thing? I'm. trying to set something up or somebody. sends someone a letter, but it's delayed. two days and gets and it can give you. some examples of that. I actually don't. think it's very likely that it can it's. going to be able to write anything. meaningful or and in particular that. it's going to be making movies like from. whole cloth like Tilly Nor like that's. I don't think that's going to. happen. I think it's not I think it. actually it turns out the technology is. not progressing in exactly the same way.

they sort of presented it. Um and really. what it is is going to be a tool just. like sort of visual effects and yeah it. needs to have language around it. You. need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. You're those laws already exist. You. can't I can't sell your picture. for money. I can't. You can sue me. Period. I might have the ability to draw. you to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law. And. the unions are going to I think the. guilds are going to manage this where. it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool.

that actually helps us, for example, we. don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in. our parkas and you know whatever it is. and but then make it appear very. realistically as if we're in the North. Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a. lot of time. We're going to focus on the. performances and not be freezing our ass. off out there and running back inside. That's useful just like Spencer Tracy. and Katherryn Heburn used to be like. driving their car and there's a wind. blowing a painting behind them. and look. goofy and you [laughter] know now you. know in computer gener people use a lot. of computerenerated stuff and some of it.

is going to replace just that like. instead of uh 500 guys in Singapore you. know making $2 an hour to to render all. the graphics for a superhero movie. there's going to be able to do that a. lot easier there's already laws around. and guild guidelines around like how. many union extras you have to use but. also we've been tiling extras like there. weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth. you know what I mean there aren't. Invictus there weren't all those people. in the stadium like that's something. we've been doing. It kind of feels to me. like the thing we were talking about. earlier where there's a lot more fear.

because we have the sense this. existential dread. It's going to wipe. everything out. >> But that actually runs counter in my. view to what history seems to show which. is a adoption is slow. It's incremental. >> Um I think a lot of that rhetoric comes. from people who are trying to justify. valuations around companies where they. go we're going to change everything in. two years. There's going to be no more. work. Well, the reason they're saying. that is because they need to ascribe a. valuation for investment that can. warrant the capex spend they're going to.

make on these data centers with the. argument that like oh you know as soon. as we do the next model it's going to. scale up can be three times as good. except that actually chatp5 about 25. time% better than chatbt4 and costs. about four times as much in the way of. electricity and data so when they say. that's like plateauing the early AI the. line went up very steeply and it's now. sort of leveling off. I think it's. because and yes it'll get better but. it's going to be really expensive to get.

better and a lot of people are like. this we want chatb4 because it turned. out like the vast majority of people who. use AI are using it to like as like. companion bots to chat with at night and. stuff. There's no work, there's no. productivity, there's no value to it. I. would argue there's also not a lot of. social value to getting people to like. focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and. listening to everything you say and. being sick ofantic. But that's sort of a. side issue. I think for this particular.

purpose, like the way I see the. technology and what it's good at and. what it's not, it's going to be good at. filling in all the places that are. expensive and burdensome and they make. it harder to do it and it's always going. to rely fundamentally on the human. artistic aspects of it. Well, I think. the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more. people are going to appreciate real. things that are made by real people, you. know, like you're you still appreciate a. handmade table, you know? You're you're. going to appreciate like Did you see um. uh The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?

>> Yeah. >> No, I didn't. great. >> Yeah, I heard it was great. >> That lady. terrific. >> When she's in a scene, you're just like. Jesus Christ. Like great. >> Like you like her lips are. quivering like you believe everything. that she's saying. But you're right, people want that. My kids want. cassette. >> I'll say like I I did this interview. [clears throat] with uh with Dwayne. Johnson because they, you know, they. when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors. interview them, you know. And I did this. interview with Dwayne and and and I.

asked him, there's this scene in the. Smashing Machine where where he's. overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes. to see him in the hospital. >> Yeah. >> And and it really walloped me this. scene. I thought it was so great. And. and I asked him and I was just like, "Can you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny Benny Safy directed it? Did Benny write this write that? Did you. work on that scene with them? Did you?". He goes, "No, we we actually worked on. it together." And I go, "But how did. that scene come to be?" And Dwayne goes, "Well, my father was an alcoholic." And. I don't remember if he said substance. abuse or alcoholic, but I didn't know.

the man. I don't want to impug him, but. but he had he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, "And and when. he would talk to me, uh, you know, that's how he. would defend himself." It was almost a. bargaining thing because there's this. thing when this guy comes to him, he's. overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this. scene. He's he's going like he's going. like, "Yeah, isn't it crazy?" And then I. woke up and I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him. And you. see him and he's kind of tap dancing and. his friend finally kind of holds his. feet to the fire. And at that moment,

Dwayne literally. starts to burst into tears and just. pulls the hospital sheet up over his. head. And it's like and it's and it's I. mean it just it was I'm I'm not doing it. justice if you haven't I mean I know you. I know you've seen. >> but um he said yeah. So he explains that. about his father and then he goes and. and uh when my mom was diagnosed with. stage three lung cancer. I was with her. when the oncologist came in and she was. lying in the hospital bed and when he.

gave her the news, she pulled the sheet. up over her head and [snorts] I looked. at her and she just looked like a little. like a little kid, you know, and I was. like, "All right." [snorts] Like, so. that right is two traumatic events from. this guy's life, right, from his life. experience. And the actor in him, right, sees this. scene, goes into his. memory pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for.

this scene, and he can marry them. together in the scene, and then he goes. and performs it that way. And. [clears throat]. a dude walking in off the road, goes to. the movies, sees this, understands. somehow that it's real. I I. didn't know why. I That's why I wanted. to ask him, how did that scene come to. be? genuinely didn't know and made me. tear up and you know like that is. >> there's no AI that can do that.

>> No, it's the whole lot more than. photorealistic images. >> Yeah, you you could you could you could. have an AI understand Dwayne's face and. move his face into different No. thing could ever do that. >> The complications of real life. experiences relayed. >> That is a completely human That is an. that is an artist. That's a piece of. art, right? that comes out of a lived. human experience. >> That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where Emily Blunt is. arguing in that movie. I said I really. said I I I was like that I think I think. that's the best she's ever been. I love.

you know we live in the same building in. New York. She's like very dear friend of. mine and I and I I I I was like I I. really think that's the best she's ever. been. And then I said and then I blurted. that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind. of stopped and looked at me like he. didn't say it but he was kind of like. she's pretty good in my movie. too. [laughter]. >> Well, she's great period. [clears throat] She's great period. >> She's great period. But there's. something about that. Well, I knew Mark. I I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when. he was fighting in the UFC. So, [cough]. I knew the whole journey of him. And I.

was so happy for Dwayne because it was a. film where instead of being this. superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he. gets to be that, but be an a great. actor. And you know, you can't really. get a person. >> to look like that. >> to express emotions and and and he was. Mark Kerr. If you know Mark, I mean, it. was great actor. >> I completely forgot it was him and. somebody who had seen it before told me.

that was going to happen and I was like, "All right, we'll see." Yeah. [laughter]. And it was like from the second it. started. >> it didn't get the credit it deserved in. terms of like the amount of people that. went to see it. But I think overall in. time people appreciated. >> Yeah. That's one people go back to and. talk about. >> because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot. of people are like I don't want to see a. movie about a bunch of. meatheads. But it's not. It's just a. movie that happens to be around MMA but. MMA. But it's a great movie. The the the. scenes are fantastic. The acting.

is so good and the right and even the. the fight scenes. They're so realistic, man. It's really like they I've saw all. those fights. They recreated those. fights about as good as you can get. >> and just his crazy struggle. And you. know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine. >> No. >> So, The Smashing Machine was made when. Mark was at the height of his powers and. pride. And he was the most terrifying. guy in the world. He was 265 lb of solid.

muscle just blowing through people. Didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him. No one. knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were. filming. And he let them film him. Let. them film him shooting up. let them film. him like bringing this giant bag of. pills with him and all this. everywhere and just completely falling. apart. While they were supposed to be. capturing this hero movie of the. greatest fighter in the world, he's. falling apart like live in front of the.

documentary. It was amazing. documentary. >> I got to see it. >> It's really good. But the I was so happy. that they put it in a film and I was so. happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to. show what he's really capable of because. he's so limited by a lot of just the. parameters of the roles that he was in. >> Yeah. And by and by like galactic. success, too, right? I mean, it's it's. it's he he has he had to. >> and will continue to have to. >> push.

>> for that, right? Because it's. [clears throat] what he wants, right? and not because what because what what. they are going to continue to want him. to do is you know the thing that that. that mints them money. Um. >> yeah but I suspect that his experience. and feeling about this movie. >> from the conversations I've had with. him. Yeah. This this is this is. >> this has changed him. >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean it's like this thing that. these superhero guys have to do where. it's like something has to change. because otherwise you're going to be.

boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks. like that, it's so easy to put him in. that box. >> And so you see him now, he's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista. went through a very similar thing, too, right? He wanted to be he wanted to have. more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and. different challenging things. >> Well, I think also coming from where he. came from, right? It's like you talk. about going from TV to movies in the old. days, try coming from wrestling to to. like the biggest movie star in the. world, right? It's very it's like it's. incredible that he did that and now he's.

in this place where he's got this. leverage as because he's so beloved and. you know that that he can kind of tailor. the tailor what he wants from from here. on out. >> It's hard to bring the audience with you. and like no no I know you like this. thing but let me let me show you. something else. You know it's sort of. like you go to the concert the band. wants to play the new songs and play the. hits. [laughter] You know. it's always a little gilded gaze. All. right. it. satisfaction. >> Yeah. [laughter].

>> No, I love the song, too. >> You know, my my acoustic thing that I. did, you know. >> Yeah. I went to see the Stones and when. they were here in town and there was a. few songs they played that were like new. songs. >> Oh, really? See the audience is like, "Okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the. other one." [laughter]. >> Yeah. That's But I mean, but you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that. choice. And he's made it. and and it was. amazing vehicle too cuz he still kept. that superhuman hulkish frame and then. but also showed like god there's like.

amazing depth there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's the thing that's I think. especially because it's a it's. collaborative it happens with other. people. That's what movies do that other. doesn't do which is just create. like you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up right that's not him. That's all it's all an illusion all. But if you do it really well. with like, you know, somebody that seems. to really be feeling something like all. of a sudden, I think what it does, it. touches like these things in ourselves, you know, it has that same effect that.

Dwayne went through of articulate to you. about like these moments that were kind. of burned into his memory. Then really. the best movies are kind of almost blank. screens that we project our own. like, oh yeah, I my father died or I. went through this with my kid or I'm. I feel alone and and and. and miserable and and here's this like. hopeful moment that someone has to go. maybe I can maybe I can do something, you know, they inspire you, they touch. you, they move you and the thing to go. for. The other thing is, you know, it's.

a is to to tell a lighter story, to go. through the more typical sort of tropes. of it all. And it's a. >> either way, you're in somebody else's. perspective for a few hours and. hopefully it breeds compassion. >> Well, when it's done right, there's a. magic to it where you forget that it's. happening and you're there when the most. amazing trick is when it's done by. famous people. You know, I was talking. to Ethan Hawk about this. There's a. scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in. uh that movie with Julia Roberts about. the end of the world. I forget the name. of it. >> Right. Yeah, tomorrow.

something people will find it. But it's. great, great movie. But there's. this scene where he's trying to get he's. talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's. got a gun to him. And it's so I. know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's. Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like. you're locked in. You're locked. in. You're like, "Oh shit." Like that's. the magic. And And he was like, "But I'm. locked in too." Like that's it's like a. hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the.

scene in a very bizarre way. Like you. you have the lines, but you're living. it. And so, and that's either done or. it's not done. And when it's not done, >> you could tell someone's kind of just. performative. >> You feel it when you're watching it. >> Yes. >> If if it does that thing and it pulls. you in, then it's happening. >> That's the magic of film. >> And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part, >> for the most part, you don't. you're. feeling it and you it's really. happening. It's much more like. >> other human beings recognize human.

beings experiencing real Yes. They. they mirror like I know what. >> sorrow looks like without having to. I can't break it down for you or. I even you know you we all know kind of. what like oh he's a little anxious right. now or did I maybe offend him or you. know all these little things and when. some like in the rare moments when these. big feelings or the things happen you. feel it too you know and you usually. like an example is there's an old saying. about like you know actors try to cry.

people try not to cry Like because when. you're really experiencing that. you don't want people to see it. You. want to hide it. You want to No, I'm. okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like. >> you want to pull the sheet up over. Exactly. Exactly. >> But the other thing that's really. interesting from from our side of doing. it, because he and I have talked about. this a lot, is and I've always said. publicly, like great actors are good. enough for both of you. Like when you're. in a scene with a great actor, >> that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to. call it, that energy, that that place. where you go, right?

>> They're bringing you right where they. tractor beam. They will suck you. right in with them. And like as quickly. as you look into their eyes and you're. like, you're like just there. And it's. like, and it's not like it's like riding. the easiest wave you've ever ridden in. your life, >> you know? It can be the hardest thing in. the world and it can be the easiest. thing in the world. When you're with a. great actor, it just it's just if the. scenes. >> Yeah, that's the real paradox is like. all the stuff that I'm the most proud. of, the weird thing about us has felt. very easy at the time. And the.

where you're banging your head against. the wall trying to get blood from a. stone and killing yourself and the whole. thing and it just. >> it ends up feeling empty. And. the thing about the stuff that I'm proud. of is I'm my insecurity is like should. be harder than this, right? Are we are. like we work hard enough? Are we get you. know. >> and learn to kind of just trust that? Go. feels good. Let's just keep going, you. know? Well, there's some scenes in this. movie without giving too much away where. there's conflict between you two guys. that seem so real and that's even harder. to recreate because you guys are good. friends and you're making the movie. together and you've got this scene where.

you're acting in this and with the. conflict with the two of you guys the. movie, but it's very real. >> The reason that it was real is that I. like that scene. The reason it's it it. it works, I think, is because. he's coming at me and he's he really. needs to know something and I'm. completely blanking him. >> Like I'm just he's going, "You got to. tell me what's going on, man." He's. like, "It's awesome." Like, "What what. is going what is the thing?" And I'm and. I'm just like literally kind of blanking. him in this bizarre way which which like.

was really frustrating him in real life. because he he was that feeling of like. it's tell me dude it's you and. me like when he finally goes he screams. out I don't trust you right now that's a. problem right which is like what. you would say to an old friend like what. are you doing man like what. >> what what are you do like. tell me the the betrayal me or. tell me the truth. Lie, lie to me or. tell me talk to me and like step outside. our whole relationship and all of a.

sudden. >> just act like. >> give me this weird look of just like I. don't know, you know, like [laughter]. and so when we were doing the scene, it was really pissing [laughter]. him off. I could see him like getting. >> There's the one line that wasn't written. that I saw I didn't remember doing was, "I would have never you like. this.". >> I I would have never you like. this. Yeah. >> Which I didn't even remember saying is. George, I like that. Keep that thing. I. wouldn't have you. And I was I. thought I was like what is he what did I. just you and I so watched the playback. It wasn't those rare moments again. It. was like where it was that thing of you.

doing all the work by by not doing. anything which I didn't expect that to. be the choice that you made and it just. was confusing and felt like just you. know leaving you out in the. cold. I the only thing I could rely on. is like I you know I I would I wouldn't. do this to you [laughter] you know. So. do you have in those moments where. you're you're ad living a line where a. line come is it just just that feels. like that's what you say? >> Yeah. >> It's just kind of like he couldn't stop. from saying it, right? You know, >> but you have to be working with somebody.

that makes that okay. You know what I. mean? Cuz the part of your brain that. will like govern you or tell you. something's not okay, whatever, will. step in if it's sort of like, you know, listen, I expect you to do this. boxes. And there's there's uh directors. and writers who who really do really. care about every word precisely and that. you know and that's that's how they do. it and that's fine. That could be great. too. For me like it it I find it's it. becomes more interesting and sometimes. better stuff happens if you actually. feel like you don't have to say any of. the lines. I don't have to say any of.

the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend. to say the ones that feel right. But it. but like it's that it's that fake thing. that never happens in life which is I'm. never sitting here talking to you and. think what's my next line? What am I. supposed to say and how should I say. that? >> And it's not about the lines ever. It's. not about the word. It's about what's h. what's the scene about? What's happening. in the scene? >> It's one of the reasons why curb curb. your enthusiasm is so great. >> cuz Larry David just gives you a place. to get to. >> Yeah. Like. >> it gives them an ag kind of a loose. agenda of what's going to happen. >> and then films a bunch of stuff and.

everybody figures it out. >> Yeah. And a lot of times that show's. about the awkward in between when. people are missing each other or not not. sure of themselves and a little. embarrassed. genius show. >> It really is. >> And and and people talk like we're. talking like you occasionally talk over. each other. There's a stumble. There's. no one know like what what what the. are you talk? There's weirdness [snorts]. to. >> because what's also happening is that. forces you to really listen, right? And. that is that is the hardest thing to. kind of learn for young actors I think.

is is it's really all about listening. And like I did a bunch of movies with. Paul Greengrass and that's how he works. where he where you just know the agenda. going in. You know some basic things. that you you know what your guy needs. going in. Like I was playing a chief. warrant officer and I had to go through. a door and there was a guy and I needed. to interrogate him and I this is what I. needed to know from him. I needed to. secure the house with my guys and I. needed to get to this guy. We needed to. make sure everybody here was secure. So, and it just and they and he put me with.

a bunch of real. combat veterans and we went in. and you know they're the. >> another thing that does your job for. you. >> It's just being around the real people. >> Joe putting the the cops from Miami, you. know, on these parts and it just like by. osmosis you feel more legitimate. The. thing feels more authentic to the. audience. You don't know why because you. don't know what the how what the. culture is of the nar tactical narcotics. team in Miami. But when you see the real. guys, you kind of oh you're like, "Yeah, that seems right.".

>> Miami was a perfect place to have it, too. >> Miami. >> Well, it's also specific to this because. it's based on this real tactical. narcotics [snorts] team in in in Miami. And and uh and the guy who ran that, this guy Chris Casiano is Joe's friend. and he's the guy that my character is. based on. Um, so Chris was Chris we. went, you know, we rode along with Chris. down there. We went with that team and. watched them operate and then hung out. with them and then they came up and they. were, you know, all in the movie and. Chris was around as a technical adviser. the whole time. So any question like.

little details, all right, how do I go. through this door? What do I do? What do. you do here? What's the what's the. protocol here? What you know, all of. that stuff was kind of overseen by him. so that it so that it was how they. really do it. >> That whole town is so Did you. ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes. >> Oh. >> The entire graduating class of. the police academy one year either wound. up murdered or in jail. [laughter]. >> But that's what happens. All of a sudden. you push so much money into.

something, right? And it's like and. before they even kind of figured out. like. >> you know and it was there wasn't even a. lot of stigma. I was like, "Ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys fun. drug." But, you know, is there some. statistic about like, you know, the. amount of money in the banks in Miami. was like the same as the rest of the. country? >> More [laughter] banks per capita in. Miami than anywhere else in the country. >> because they were just laundering money. and they got away with it. They. literally got away with it. >> Have you ever flown over biminy? You. know, the island. So, so if you fly.

over, ever fly over Biminy, there are. all these like Cessnas underwater, all. these planes like around the island cuz. what they used to do, Bimin is like the. closest it's 50 miles off the coast of. Florida. Um they would they would come. in with a plane full of drugs and just. crash the plane into the water. They. would land it on purpose. >> On purpose because there's no runway on. Biminy. No, it's like it. We're. going to dump the plane in the. >> They would have 10 cigarette boats, like. a flotilla of boats waiting. They would.

crash the plane. They'd offload the. drugs as the plane was sinking, right? And and then they put it they put. [laughter]. the Coast Guard like figures. They're. always coming for them. That's why they. have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into. one of the boats. >> and they got a one out of 10 chance of. making it. They just scatter. >> and the Coast Guard goes after one of. them and hopes they get the right one. and not. It's just like, "No, it's just. taking a cruise tonight. What's the. problem, officer?". >> But the planes are still all submerged.

Like you could The water's so clear. You. can see. >> how many Oh, wow. >> There you go. >> Wow. >> That's crazy. How many planes. are out there? >> I flew over it probably 20 years ago. But I mean there's. >> Yeah, >> that wasn't a. >> I don't know how long I mean but if you. think of probably the cost of one of. those little Cessnas probably wasn't I. mean with the amount of drugs they were. moving on on Yeah. There you go. wild. >> That's great. They're kind of landing. where it's sort of shallow. [laughter]. >> Yeah. They land and it's like.

it. We can swim. >> 5 to 10 feet of water and what do they. they land at whatever 55 knots. So you. just try to. >> looks nice too like sure you can. be comfortable but I mean Sully landed a. 737 or whatever it was in water. >> Yeah. wild. What a crazy part of. our culture that that happened. >> Yeah. >> That the the the whole cocaine run. during the 80s in particular like Miami. Vice all that like it's like it. shaped the entire country. >> for sure. >> Oh yeah. I just remember that one guy in.

that documentary who was like I think he. was from Boston and he was like the. pilot and he had figured out the route. and he was like man. >> like we could have gotten away with this. forever. [laughter]. >> It was somebody talked and he knew. that's the only way we would have been. caught. He was like I I had it all. He. was clearly really smart. >> One of the guys did too. You know what I. mean? There's a whole lot of people out. there that were like yeah we had a nice. run back. [laughter]. >> It's why I got eight houses. You know. it's like. >> Oh yeah. That's one of the real crimes. that people got away with was bringing.

cocaine into this country. There's a lot. of people that got very wealthy, including banks, which is just really. crazy. >> Banks or the jewelry companies, Jag. There was like more Jaguar. dealerships in Miami than everywhere. else in the country. And it was like. doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep. I. guess a lot of people like our cars. here. >> You don't say all cash. Sure. [laughter]. >> Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure. Well, how many backyards in Miami still. to this day have bags just buried. somewhere that nobody knows about? >> It's probably worth just checking. >> When you buy a house in Miami, just dig.

the yard up. >> Well, at least find out who owned it. before you. Oh, he's a pilot. >> Get a truck. [laughter]. >> Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the. backyard. I mean, one of those guys in. the films had millions of dollars just. buried in his backyard. They had nowhere. to put it. >> They were making so much money, they. just had to bury it places. >> That's crazy. Well, it's why. it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because you know that the. situation that the cops without giving. away too much of the plot, but the. situation that the cops are dealing with. is a very real situation. I mean, so.

many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops. turn dirty. It's because it just get. temptation. It's like you take this. these people, you know, you got like. six, seven people, they work for. a living. They have the same. they have to deal with. And there's $20. million, you know, and it's I mean it. makes for a great like drama too. Even. like the you know in the performances. because all of a sudden somebody's. thinking like okay how are they going to. react you know who be the first person. to say you I'm going to have to turn. this all in you know and and like.

getting to play that And for me. also I like you know without being you. know sanctimonious or preachy because I. really think movies we're talking about. like what they do well what they do very. poorly is deliver messages or lecture. as soon as you get into that thing. >> Yeah. >> The audience is like, I you know, I'm. going to go to church for that or. school for I don't need that. here. Um, but I like that what was. underneath it is like this is a. hard job and and that there's a lot like. there's a lot of value like the these. characters, the ones that are trying to.

do their job are trying to get through. the day and just at the end of the day. have done their job like they said they. were going to do, you know, adhere to. the ethics that they're supposed. to and at the end of the day be able to. sleep at night and believe there's some. value in not stealing the money. or flipping somebody over, you know what. I mean? And doing all that And. that's the win. The wind doesn't have to. be get away with the bag of money or. you know save the world from uh. you know the evil scientist laser beam. or whatever. It's like the end of the. day if you can live with. yourself and say look you know I quitted.

myself according to what the. expectations were and what my true to my. word and I I think there's so like. that's a I don't know that that affected. me. I I found that kind of moving and. and you can't do it if you create like. if you to credit to Joe Script like just. two dimensional characters. I'm the. hero, I'm the villain or this person. would never do that. They all have to be. real people like you would be subject to. like. >> temptation. Money just represents. whatever that thing is you think you. want or that's going to make your life. better. You're you know it's something. different to everybody. But, you know,

and especially when you're like you're. facing like real, you know, the custody. thing or the, you know, the sick. relative or or whatever it is, that's. it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to to. to that kind of temptation. You know, sometimes I think it's cavalier to be. like, "Oh, well, you're dirty." You're. not putting people in a very tough. situation a lot of times, particularly. if they're feeling like undervalued. I. like the woman scene where Catalina is. like, "I get pissed. I get. yelled at. I get on." You know what. I mean? like I'm out here grinding every.

day. >> You know, it's uh it's a lot to a lot to. ask and I think it's it's worth kind of. making that, you know, heroic without. sort of indicating too much. >> No, it's really well written because. there's no suspension of disbelief. moments. It's a it's a and that's hard. to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one movie moment in a. movie where you're like, "What? Come on. How do you do that? That's. >> convenient." You guys don't have any of. those. There's none of that. And I loved. it. I loved it. I loved that that aspect.

of it too where it felt like all of it. was like I believed it. >> I believed it. >> And that that's really a credit to Joe. and his like taste [clears throat] and. that's why we really thought like this. guy knew how to make narc. He kind of. obviously understood this world and. understood that it has to. >> above all it has to feel real and that's. why he was open to like okay whatever. happens you throw in a line maybe it's. good. can't get your feeling hurt if. it's not, you know, but like you got to. be able to take that shot and we're all. down, you know, trying to spend time. with people. I mean, I kind of feel for. these cops, a bunch of actors descend on.

you and they're like, "What what kind of. sweatshirt is that?" You know, [laughter]. >> it was like that Michael J. Fox, James. Woods [snorts] movie. Remember that. movie when he I forget what it was. called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an. actor following around James Woods. He's. he's studying him for a character and. James Woods is a real like detective and. he's just like, >> "Get this guy away from me." I kept. thinking of that. >> kind of hair gel you use. >> Yeah. Yeah. like all these questions, [laughter] you know, but they were very. tolerant of us, which was which was nice. and and uh and uh and really really. helpful, you know, because it's all it's.

always details. It's always details. It's like how fastidiously do you do you. kind of mind for those details? Cuz I'm. I've always been convinced that like an. audience, >> it's like you were saying, they don't. analyze why they don't believe. something. They feel it. They just don't. believe it. >> And it's usually because those details. are you you don't get those. >> and that's the only thing like I'm not. great at imagining something let's. invent this everything that I've done. like that I that I like is been a result.

of something I found to research like. for the town I went down and just went. through the you know all the prisons you. know out there in Massachusetts federal. prisons state prisons and sat down and. talked to guys who robbed trucks and. banks and you know kind of sometimes you. know you want to know and then sat down. with the FBI guys and was like what are. they like and the great you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in. like uh I'm in like wet wallpap or I'm. in the prison denim or whatever and I'm. to some guy I said like after talking. for two hours, you know, I was like,

"Does anything just weird ever. happened or up? Anything you. remember?" The guy was like, "Yeah, one. time uh you know, we were coming out of. this thing, we robbed his truck and you. know, we we had the mask, we got the. switch car, we drove around the corner. and whatever. We pull up and we get out. guns and the mass hold things. and we look over and it's this cop. sitting there doing construction duty. and I was like right then didn't even. tell me the story. I was like oh I. was like what happened? He goes, you. know, he looked at us, we looked at him,

he looked the other way. >> Whoa. >> And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, he didn't want to end up on the wall at. the VFW. >> It was like. >> these guys with full automatic weapons, masks on switching cars. I was like, "All right, I'm putting that in the. movie.". >> And it's it's in the it's a great moment. in the town, like in the movie cuz you. know, Rener, they all jump out of the. things and then and he Oh, yeah. Here it. is. >> Exactly. >> It was like. >> It's great. And it's this awkward. >> They just stop and dude. >> He sees him. They see him.

>> He's [clears throat] like a We. have to kill this guy. >> Nope. He turns away. >> Okay. Wow. [laughter]. >> It's such a great But that's straight. from research. I always love that story. Um and then he and then the line is here. that he put it here. >> and one on the wall of BFW. Yeah. It was. a great, you know, it's a great line. >> It was such a simple explanation for. what why do you think what do you think. he did, you know, and why? Like.

>> and that's exactly what it would have. been like that guy next day's picture. would have been up in the wall at the. VFW. >> Yeah. [snorts]. >> You know, and he knew it and everybody. knew it. He said he didn't want to do it. like that. You know, that was and that. that kind of stuff is uh I don't know. It's very human human calculations and. interact. I a very extreme version of. it, but it also doesn't have sometimes. It's not dramatic at all, you know? It's. like that was an easy decision and the. guy never says anything. I didn't say. anything, you know, and kind of can't. really blame him, you know? It's uh.

>> The Town was a great movie, too, man. And I I knew a lot of people like. that, you know, from boxing gyms and. stuff. I I knew a guy who was a hitman. for Whitey Bulier. >> I knew a guy who was a a friend of a. brother of mine who went to jail for. that for murder for killing people. >> Yeah. >> What town did you grow up in? >> I lived in Newton. I Yeah. I grew up in. I lived in Jamaica playing for a little. while and I lived in Newton, but I I. spent a lot of time in Boston because I. was fighting. I was mostly training. And.

so I was around a lot of these like very. shady characters. >> who were in the fighting world and a lot. of them had backgrounds in crime. one of the guys that I went to that I. trained with, he went to jail for a. little while and then he got uh arrested. because a guy got killed and they broke. every bone in his body with a hammer and. kept injecting him with cocaine to keep. him keep him awake while they were doing. it and then they cut his hands off and. cut his head off. Jesus. >> And this guy that I used to train with. got arrested for that.

>> Jesus. >> Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail. for that. He's dead now, but he was it. somehow or another at least. peripherilally involved. >> Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting, but I I went around and found a lot of. the one of the things about be, you. know, being an actor, people will talk. to you, you know, which is a. amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, "Oh yeah, I killed guys." You know, they'll just come out and like it's kind. of the rules all of a sudden don't. apply. Like these guys in the prison, what the are they going to talk? You know what I mean? But they're like. interested in it for whatever. And you.

know, so so you avail yourself of that. and and then I had like, you know, we. had people around that movie who. everybody knew, yeah, he did that job. He he never got arrested. And so like, yeah, people, you know, meet PE, you. know, and and uh and talk to him. And. it's interesting because the such a good. lesson for for doing this job which is. that they're never how you think they're. supposed to be like the murderer person, you know, there's always something a. little I remember one guy was supposed. to be like this really violent kind of. loose cannon.

>> guy who supposedly had done all this. stabbed and killed two people. Faniel Hall and shot these guys in a in. a robbery and he like shows up with his. polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know, how's it going? you know, just like I. never would have put this guy on. killing [laughter] four people, you know what I mean? And they got to. have a good time. So, I love that one. movie and you're just thinking, man. Like, this is what And it's a. really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and okay, this. guy's the tough guy and he's going to be.

the it's like you work with like I have. the like the opportunity to. train with these Delta guys like you. know, it's the most elite special forces. combat operators in the world. I. mean, I suppose the seals will take. exception to that, but what just. numerically, right? I think there's been. less than 900 guys ever in the history. of Delta. You meet them and it's they're. not the biggest guys. They're not the. toughest guys. They're not trying to. be hard and, you know, they're. the most relaxed at ease and it, you. know, I found myself just being like. finally I was like, what can I just ask.

what do you think makes somebody like. qualify for the the Delta Force? Like. what's a good Delta operator? He's like, "Uh, you know, problem solving.". Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah, it's probably like your job." I was. like, "No, let me take notice. [laughter]. It's really not like my job." I. appreciate it. A very big. difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve. problems like trying to kill me." See, that's the thing. [laughter]. But that that [snorts] was the closest. insight I got to it, which was I've. always kind of thought this about like a.

guys like like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't get tight. and that they they are kind of able to. problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and. we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and. we're outnumbered six to one. How do you think we should get home? like just having your wits about you to. make that calculation while by the way. you're in a gunfight and things. you know I'm sure that does make cuz. those are the people where it was I'd be. in a panic and I have no idea. what to do and you get like attracted to.

the person who who's like seems to have. it like hey I'm it's good we're going to. be okay everybody get your we're. going over here you'll just follow that. guy you know what I mean. >> and uh but it's a good it's not always. the most. >> maybe it's just because they're so. confident they're not like I Like I. don't need to prove that I can kick. anybody's ass. I don't even get it in. fights like have a weapon, you know what. I mean? [laughter] It's kind of like. it's it's just a it surprises me what it. how those kinds of like extraordinary. experiences in people or extraordinary.

people don't always manifest themselves. in how they show up, >> right? We have caricatures in our head. of what like these tough people are. like. Well, you you see that about MMA. fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA. fighters. you meet them, they're like. the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people. in the world. >> I remember going to one of the events at. in LA. I think it was a Staples and and. I was backstage and and was talking to. uh one of like the lawyers for the UFC. about we were talking about Conor. McGregor and he was telling me a great. story about him and [snorts] this guy.

walks up and he's in a like chinos like. khaki pants and like a blue button-up. like you know kind of business shirt. with spectacles and he's very small and. I kind of don't really regard him and. I'm still hearing this story. And then. Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?". And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And. I'm like, "This guy could wreck. me, right? [laughter]. Absolutely destroy me." And he.

and he is the guy that some dummy would. try to pick on. >> Yeah. [clears throat] You know what I. mean? Like he does not he's not carrying. himself like he's he just is the thing, you know? >> And they find out a little bit too late. >> Yeah. Don't find that one out late. Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of guys do, >> unfortunately. Yeah, that's uh it's uh. well, they don't have to prove. themselves, right? They do it all the. time. The same with Delta Force guys. Like this idea like this like outwardly. brash tough guy. Usually that kind of. machismo and.

>> that's That's you're you're. using that cuz you're insecure. The. secure people are very calm and and. genuinely very friendly. >> Really nice. Yeah, that's been my. experience. >> Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful, too. You know, I've kind of like. >> what a great guy. And you feel like. that's nice of you to be so so sweet to. me cuz you obviously you don't have to. be. [laughter]. >> I'll just give you my watch if you. wanted that. >> Yeah. No, it's it is a fascinating. thing. It's like we have these ideas in. our head, these caricatures, you know,

of what what a a tough man is, what a. good woman is, what this is, what that. is. M. >> as I think one of the beautiful things. about film when a film is really good is. you see these complex characters and it. sort of like reformulates in your mind. like what a person actually is. >> Yeah. It's seeing all kinds of different. people. Yeah. >> You know and and Yeah. Yeah. I. completely agree. >> I mean look the fundamental like. challenge I think in life and is like. it's like to find some humility which. means actually thinking you might be.

wrong about the that you're pretty. sure about. And it means that like you. kind of have to assume somebody else. might have a point, you know? It's not. like just writing everybody else off who. disagrees with you because him, he's an He's, you know, like. those are things that actually take work. to get to because the the first instinct. because you just defend your idea or. whatever. It's easier is to just. >> that it's a zero sum game. Yeah. That. that two competing ideas can't exist. that somebody can't be a good person. like.

if you decide it's you disagree we don't. believe so I don't know what about this. or what about that. >> but once you find yourself relying on. like well I need to like zero out this. person's humanity in order to defend my. idea. >> I think that's a pretty good indicator. that like there's something wrong with. the way you're thinking like because it. can't be that you're right about. everything and everyone else is bad who. disagrees with you. >> I think that was one of the most. interesting things about the Sopranos is. that the main character The guy that you. loved was a murderer.

>> Yeah. >> He was like who would murder his. friends. >> He was a a complete mobster and a thug. But you really loved him. >> Loved the out of cared about. It. was so complicated. My daughter doing the part that you. found yourself being like, I don't I. think you probably has to kill him now. I gota kill. >> That's also that's also great a great. actor. Like there's a very famous story. about Marlon Brando when he did street. car Named Desire and Tennessee Williams. who wrote it like freaked out because he.

was making Stanley Kowalsski he was. making people empathize with Stanley. Kowalsski and Tennessee Williams was. like but I wrote him as a brute. He's. this he was like a two-dimensional brute. who just came and beat up his wife and. you know and and was just and was. supposed to be this kind of dark looming. force over the play. But Brando was. like, "No, he's a human being and I'm. gonna play him like a human. being and and it changed the the play.". But but Williams reflects life in the. real world. Everybody's the hero of.

their story. Everyone has the reasons. for why they're doing and people don't. set out to be like, I'm just going to or. hurt someone or dominate the world. Like. you think, well, I got to protect what I. have. It's like even, you know, not. bringing back to this movie, but it's. like what I liked about RIP was it was. kind of the slippery slope. you know. that first time you take a little money. and then well you know I gota cover that. I don't want to go to jail and my reason. why I did that but now I've told a lie. now I got to cover that thing and now. you have guys who both live by this code. that's very hey you protect the people. who are with you and you got to have.

this and so now it's two people. are very similar like by that kind of. slippery slope ultimately find. themselves you know willing to kill one. another uh because and it's really not I. don't I don't believe in that one choice. turn it's like more how do you find. yourself, you dig yourself in a. hole cuz you're just covering up the la. trying to fix the last problem that's. arisen, you know, and everybody thinks a. b is of course the roots for themsel is. like empathize with themselves. That's. what we have to be concerned with. ourselves, our needs, our families, our.

basic It's a hard to expect people. to go like, "All right, and and and what. about, you know, like what they think?". And I and I think that's I think it's a. it's a much more honest evaluation of. people. And it allows for like. complexity and forgiveness and. all the that's sort of beautiful. about people like rather than this. notion of like, well, we're going to be. binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever, and any infraction then it's. like permanently stains you. Right.

Like we were talking about earlier about. people that have been cancelled, you. know, that that this idea that one thing. you said or one thing you did and now. we're going to exaggerate that to the. fullest extent and cast you out of. civilization for life. >> in perpetuity. Yeah. >> It's crazy. And it's. >> Yeah. I was because because I bet some. of those people would have preferred to. go to jail for 18 months or whatever to. and and and then come out and say, "No, but I that that we can't I I paid my. debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we be.

done?" Like, the the the thing about. about that, you know, getting kind of. excoriated. publicly like that, it's it just never. ends. And it's and it's the first thing. that you know it's just it just will. follow you to the grave. I think. >> it's also this problem that people have. with people that are in the public eye. They have this like desire to chop them. down always, you know, and anybody that. stumbles in the public eye. They want to. destroy their life and they want to just. pile on and you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not.

talking to they're not a human being. It's just text on a screen. >> Right. >> Yeah. It's just like kind of like I was. saying like that kind of sixth grade. instinct to be like, "Oh, he's in. trouble." You know, there's this we, you. know, human like we have dark up. instincts too sometimes to like isolate. people or get joy out of someone else's. they're in trouble because maybe because. part of it saying, "Hey, it's not me, you know." So if you can point the. finger, everyone's looking over there. We feel safer, you know? >> Right. >> But it's it's like Yeah. And to to to.

take any forgiveness out of it, you. know, is a really up thing. because then it makes it impossible a to. actually go, "All right, yeah, I did. that. That was wrong. I get. it." You know, because it doesn't matter. once you've said you've done it. You you. become like an outcast. And I don't. think anybody wants to think, you know, like you're the sum total of who you are. is your worst moment, right? >> You know, it's sort of like. >> the you know, you know, I think you want. to be judged just as well. Are you. capable of doing something good or. something beautiful? It's not to say to. forget, you know, there's people that. just over and over and over again doing.

horrible don't care. I get it. No. one's trying to like absolve that, but. you remove the ability to sort of. forgive people or look at them in a. complicated way. Or else it's kind of. one become of those things. It's like a. >> get one of ours or one of them, the. instinct to get like a team tribal. oriented and it just becomes a sport, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's also like who wants to. live in a world with no forgiveness and. redemption? That's crazy. Like that's. just denying the very nature of human. beings. >> and that people do things that they.

regret and they do and then they become. better people because of it and to. >> yeah some of the people I would rely on. the most like trust my kids with the. most have done that they that they. really regret and you know was yeah. objectively wrong and then the people. who've been like a I did that I. whether it's like addiction I. got myself down this route I did. this I did this they're able to go I did. it I'm sorry it's real I shouldn't have. done it it was wrong that actually that. those people can become someone that's. very trustworthy because you're like.

this will say if they've. done something they'll actually look at. their own behavior they'll acknowledge. it and then you feel you feel good and. you feel much versus someone who tells. you like I'm I'm no I got all I always. get right everything's. >> well it's like it's all it's about. evolution right and and and in our own. personal evolution and we're all in our. on our own path towards that like the. the the idea of attacking someone it's. like Oh, so you you ace the test like. put your pencil down like you nailed. being human.

>> you're done that if you nail being human. that's not possible because you forgot. about the part about forgiveness which. is a giant. >> part you haven't nailed it by definition. if you're out there throwing stones. >> it's most of the people that I find. especially when there's someone that's. publicly in trouble for something most. of the people that I know that have. attacked people have a lot of. questionable in their past and it's. almost like they're trying to hide that. by going on the attack. That's that. thing like if I can point my finger, it's like no one's going to be. >> Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good. guy. He's calling them out. >> Yeah, exactly.

>> Meanwhile, you know, >> if you like like. >> Yeah. I It's like you you were telling. me to see uh wake up dead man, the. knives out the third knives. It's great. And I watched I really liked it. I. thought it was a really interesting like. >> you know I'm not a religious guy. I. don't like that's you know and yeah I'm. aware of all the like okay you know. there's the religion then there's people. who supposed to be rational. I thought. it was a really beautiful movie about. like what's the role of grace in life. you know and and a really honest. examination of that like sitting doesn't.

side by side with yeah okay you don't. believe that but like you and you know. and it's not about like whether you're. going to argue over evolution. It's about like how graceful are you in. your life, you know? How much. dignity can you afford other people? And. are you willing to recognize and see. that there's maybe something bigger than. yourself and that there's a reason to to. like uh to try to sort of be. >> to find that grace to get better, you. know? I thought it was really beautiful. and kind of rare and. >> uh really surprised. >> I was really surprised, too. I I kind of.

put it on and not, you know, not not. thinking murder myster I I loved it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I loved it, too. I think it's one. of the best of the three. >> It's uh my favorite. It was my favorite. of the three. >> Those are great. Daniel Craig is great. in that role. >> He's fantastic. >> I mean, guy goes from James Bond to that. and so many other things as well. Joshua. Joshua Connor that who played the. priest. I because I first saw him on uh. on the crown. >> Crown. Yeah, I liked him a lot. >> I Man, what an actor he is.

>> Really, really good. >> How much film do you guys consume? Do. you do you spend a lot of time watching. films? I mean, the company depends. There's a lot like if we're working as. we're watching cuts after cuts and going. to the editing room, like there's a lot. of kind of work around. all the stuff that we have going that. that that eats into a lot of time. >> I'm mostly trying to keep up with what. people are doing. My issue is really. that like we've kind of developed this. pattern where all these sort of movies. that come out and are more interesting. and very like they're all jammed out at.

the last month of the year. And. so all of a sudden you're trying to race. these movies. Yeah. I got really lucky. like uh recently my son you know who's. 13 decided he wants to like watch movies. you know and I like give him like. what are you we always looking. at Tik Tok and like let's watch a. movie and you know he's kind of blowing. me off and roll his eyes and like you. know I mean if you're a dad you're kind. of an fundamentally like come on. dad you don't know what's going on you. know what I mean like he told me one. time he was like dad I said let's watch. this movie and I played in the trailer.

it was it was I can't remember what the. movie was it was a good movie and the. trailer was good. He just looks at it. and goes, "You know what you guys ought. to do? You guys ought to work with some. of the TikTok editors." I was just. [laughter] like, "Wow.". I went and told the editors, I told. Billy and Chris, I like, "Guys, I got. news for you [laughter] guys." But but. now he's like, "All right, let's watch. like what are some movies I should. watch?" He got Ladder Box. He got into. that thing, you know? It's like, so I. was like, so I said, "Okay, what are the. great movies? I'll give you a list." I. started giving him a list. They started.

watching them. And so, I mean, this is. like heaven for me. So I was like, "Okay, what are you watching?" King of. Comedy. Like last week I watched Baxi. Driver, King K, all these Scorsese. movies. >> and it really was like, "Oh man, I I cuz. in my mind I'm like, "Sure, I've seen. that movie. I know it." I watched them. again. It was I like seeing I realized. how much better they were than I even. could appreciate when I watched it when. I was younger. >> And it really and it was just the most. beautiful experience for me to. watch with my son. Like he's taking an. interest. And this is the, you know, the. older two have always been a little bit.

like, "Yeah, dad, no. Great." But hey, you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. Uh, [laughter] you know. what I mean? You guys want to come to. the set? No, I'm good. You know, >> well, it's just too much familiarity. You know, you grew up with a dad who's a. movie star. You're just like, >> the kids got in and I get it. You got to. be your own person, do your thing. They. have all their own and I get, you. know, I never even So, I never expected. it from my son and I don't know that. he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't. want to lean on him like, hey, get into. the family business. >> Um, most of the time it's just like, you. know, we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff.

Um, but it but this was a really that. was like I was like so joyful, you know. what I mean? To sit there and watch the. movies with my my kid. I like I was like. this doesn't get better. This is the. happiest I may ever be in my whole life, you know, right here. Watch this movie. and he's like, well, he's telling me. what he thinks, you know, just like like. honestly the rest of it you can. keep it, you know? >> That's awesome. >> That's the best. Well, it's great that. you guys still love film, you know, that. it's it hasn't become just a job. It.

hasn't become a thing that you do that. you really enjoy it and love it. >> Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it. really like it was it was like the an. absolute dream from the time we were. kids. We did high school theater. together, you know? Like. >> that's crazy. >> Yeah. Um, >> it was like we're lucky to get it and. lucky to. >> the whole idea that you could even the. goal was like to make a living. >> to not have to be like, well, I'm an. actor, you know, slash a waiter, contractor, dental assistant, whatever. [laughter] the it is, you know, like actually I can earn money. I can.

and we always figured like I don't need. that much, especially if we have kids. Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a. living or it's, you know, maybe it's. going to be dinner theater or. maybe it's going to be rent. Maybe it's. going to be. >> there'll be a job somewhere that we can. find where we can do this and keep doing. it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I. mean, I love when people love things. I. I I spend time on YouTube watching. people like u fix watches, you know, like I I don't know why, but I I love. when people make furniture. I love I. love watching people do things that they. really love that they're invested in. I.

think we all have that thing in us where. we see someone who's got a passion for. something, someone who really loves it. And that's what everybody really wants. in life, to be lost in the thing you. love, to have a purpose. >> And it's beautiful. Watching someone else with true purpose. is. >> very it's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe. versus the volcano where he goes in to. buy luggage. >> You like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he. was luggage is the central preoccupation. of my life. >> Guy's a luggage salesman and he. loves. >> nothing more than luggage.

And it's the greatest scene. I. [laughter] asked Tom Hanks about that. when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was. like, "Can you tell me about that. scene?" Cuz we love this scene so much. And he go and he named the actor. He was. a Broadway actor, I guess. the guy he. came in he worked for like one day in. this scene and he's so good in that. movie and then at the very end he's. showing him all the luggage and Tom. Hanks has unlimited money to spend he. thinks he's dying and so he basically. goes like well what's the best luggage. and he goes well if you know and he. opens if I had the means sir and he. opens up this thing and there's this. trunk and it's like this music plays and.

he opens it and Tom Hanks is like. >> I'll take two of them [clears throat] he. goes [laughter] may you live to be a. thousand years old. the greatest day of his. >> [laughter]. >> Oh god, >> that's amazing. You guys have been in. some bangers, man. >> Saving Private Ryan. That opening film, The Storming of the Beach. >> Unbelievable. >> That might be the the most realistic. depiction of war that's ever been made. >> So, I remember reading the script and. there was all this dialogue, all this.

stuff that was written. I came late. because I'm only in the he shot it. chronologically and I'm only in the. last, you know, the last act of the. movie basically. and and uh and he told. me on set I was saying how I go how did. it go the beginning go you know there's. that all that dialogue with them on the. boat coming in and and Stephen goes he. just goes I cut I cut all of that out he. goes he goes no talking for the first 27. minutes of this movie. >> and that was when I was like oh my god. this movie is going to be.

>> un. >> I think Tom says like I'll see you on. the beach or something he scre you know. guys are puking. >> look at the man next to Yeah, remember. he's not going to live to that. That was. the script, right? Remember that? It was. it was it was look at the man next to. you, he won't live. You know, you're. like, "Two out of three of you are going. to die. So, look at to your left, look. to your right, and feel bad for those. two sons of cuz they're not. going to make it." You know, it was. stuff like that. And Stephen's just. like, "Nope. >> No, no. These guys are puking. They're. It's like the things up. You could just. hear,

you know, and it's just like and then. just boom, and you're into it." And also. they did this incredible like cinema. changing open the shutter all the way. motion blur skip the the bleach process. in developing the film. >> I don't and I don't know if they're. going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in. there maybe. But I I I just remember. maybe it's just the open shutters just. yeah it just means that instead of like. the motion blur is what makes something. that like moves across the frame. quickly. If you look at each frame, it's.

like a blurred thing. And when you roll. those 24 frames, it gives you this the. illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up. so you get much more light. Each frame. takes a super sharp picture. And when. you run those together, like the piece. of dust goes, >> and so the mortar explosions are going. and it and you get that feeling that. you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And it's just and. nobody had ever done it. just the master. of the thing, understood how to use the. tools and combined with a great idea and. it's. >> that's just masterful. Like that's just.

how you do it. There's nobody who. directs movies who doesn't go ah it's. Spielberg, you know, it's that's how you. do it. >> It's just like you say, one of those. things a guy that's passionate and also, >> you know, caring about something, you. know, it's that that to with that much. passion is kind of connected to. greatness. Yeah. And it's I think why we. love to see that whe you know sports. you know fighting or whatever it. is there's something that makes you kind. of love being alive and also love that.

that person when you go like when. you see Michael Jordan like that was. that whole movie that we did airs really. all about like what does it mean to be. great and how does it like touch. everybody and change everybody and make. people want to improve their own. lives because somebody's just better at. at that thing than anybody else in the. world. >> Yeah. >> It's it's trans it's fixing you know I. mean I find that. >> really fascinating like I you know. people who are great at something and. the mystery of like well what is that.

like and what does that do to your life. and how did you get that way and what. does it take you know. >> and [snorts] what's the cost. >> because to truly be great at something. you have to kind of almost abandon. everything. I I've seen that in various. ways like in that kind of just empirical. personal study. I haven't seen anybody. who I think like qualifies for that who. who didn't also seem to be really. suffering 100%. >> you know and you're like damn you should. be so happy you're the greatest you and. you know interviewers always how do you. feel right now and there's that sense. that like either it's never finished or.

it's never enough or they can't enjoy it. or they're car it's that line we put in. air where it's like and you have to be. that thing to be that thing. >> you know like it's a kind of a burden. too in a way. >> 100%. >> and I just see that and that's why we we. want these heroes and people who are. great to I don't know, you know, flourish and have their life and have it. all in hand. Like there's all this. tragedy and all this stuff that happens. too. And I I it's yeah that's like you. say there seems to be a real cost. >> Well, there's always a massive cost in.

personal relationships because there's. no way you have the time for other. things. And the obsession that you have. to be the best at something, you have to. abandon almost all your concern for. everything else. You have to have this. single-minded focus and that comes with. a cost for the rest of your life because. you damage relationships. You feel like. a piece of. >> and you see that up close and like. that's not admirable, right? >> You don't give a about anybody. else. No, I do. I just care about this. more. >> You know, it's like so imagine that. you're making the sacrifices and it's.

causing injury to people and you know it. and you don't want to hurt them but you. can't help it. >> and you're getting rewarded for it. You. know, it's. >> it's complicated. Yeah. That's. >> it's crazy because you inspire all these. people that don't know you and you ruin. all your relationship. [laughter]. >> Right. That's right. >> Maybe that's why I say don't meet your. heroes. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> There's something to it, man. There. really is. >> But it's just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. >> There's a thing that that hits you and. lights you up where you want to do more.

You want to be better. you want to. whatever it is that you can do, whatever. it is you do do, you become more whether. it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah. It lights you up and it it's the. fuel that we all live off of that. consumes that like we consume to make. our culture move forward. >> Yeah. >> There's like a sacrificial element to. it, the people that do it and we all. feed off of it, you know, and it feels. like, well, that's the person that. doesn't get enough out of it, you know? >> Right. Right. But in great film, I mean,

how many lives have been changed by. decisions made after great films? Like. when I was a kid, I think I was like. seven or eight or something when Rocky. came out and I. >> I saw it and immediately ran around the. block. I've never won in my life. [laughter]. Like I was eating raw eggs. I was like. I'm like this is going to change my. life. Like it it there's things that. happen when you see something truly. great that it makes you want to be. better as a human being. I remember where I was when I saw Denzel. Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the.

movie, watched that movie and I remember. leaving I was 19 or thinking I want to. be a better man. >> I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen. >> this actor do and this per and the way, you know, that was the only real. conscious thought I had. But I remember. having it and and kind of being. surprised by it, you know, and it does. it it it that can, you know, it's. really touched me, you know, a lot of. people's work and and that's why. you get that like, >> you know, you you you see people you.

want to let them know, you know what I. mean? And tell them and um I I always. think people come to go, "Hey, I love. that movie." I always feel like, "Ah, you don't have to say that." You know. what I mean? Right. uh it makes me kind. of uncomfortable and I I don't ever like. put myself in with those figures who I. think are like no but there's these. these towering giants who have done this. you know I don't know it's uh it's not. it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived. to a place where I was like it's always. uncomfortable oh I saw hunting it made. me want to go out to Hollywood write a.

script and I think oh I [laughter]. go you know what I mean like man. a certain point I fig Okay, you know. what? Whatever it is, like great. That's. that's. >> the cost of your fame, you know, that. you have to there's going to be a bunch. of people that are going to come up to. you and then want to say those things to. you and like the wanting them to say. those things to you is the opposite of. the mindset that you need to make those. things. >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]. >> Which is is so counterintuitive. You. think like once you become really.

successful and you make a bunch of great. things, it's going to be awesome having. all these people come up to you like, "No, no, no. I'm doing something else. right now. And I can't be all wrapped up. in the fact that I'm changing your. [laughter] life. >> And also, I can't be satisfied or take. any joy in that cuz I I don't. think I'm good enough. I need to. You know what I mean? >> Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't. And that's the the darkness of trying to. do something great. You'll never be. satisfied. >> You see it in a lot of the fighters, the. same kind of thing. The great great. fighter. >> Well, also fighters have a very small. window of greatness. There's there's.

only like a certain amount of years we. can burn the RPMs at at the red line and. then eventually the knees go, the back. goes, you start. >> Is it earlier than other sports? It must. be. Yeah. >> Yes, I think so because like Tom Brady. is still elite. I bet he could probably. play football right now. I bet he You. know what? How old is Tom now? 49. >> Probably 47 or eight now probably. >> I bet he could still play, you know. >> Yeah. I mean, but that's a Yeah, I mean. that's a very specific skill position. and the way he played it he you know. >> Right. But running back No. Right. But.

at cornerback, >> the elite levels of MMA, especially with. USADA testing and, you know, and now uh. drug-free sport testing when they are. making sure that people aren't on. testosterone and growth hormone, all. these different things like you have. nine years. You have nine years at peak. performance. That's legitimate. Like, >> how long's Jon Jones been going? >> Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks cuz. Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he. was on Coke. That was one of the funny. things he said in the uh in the press. conference for the rematch. Daniel was.

talking He goes, "I beat you when. I was on Coke." [laughter]. >> I mean, he was getting arrested. He was. partying for when he fought uh. Gustiffson. He beat Gustoson and he. didn't train at all. I talked to his. trainer. He's like, "He didn't even show. up at the gym. He was never. there. He was never training. He could. just show up and beat everybody's ass.". I saw a thing uh on my Instagram feed of. a fighter and I I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I.

had the chance to spar with Jon Jones to. to work with Jon Jones." And he goes, "I. you know, I I knew about it months ahead. of time." He goes, "I got every my. nutrition, everything was absolutely. flawless. I got, you know, my sleep, everything was on." He goes, "I show up. at the gym that morning." He goes, >> it's me and five other guys. He goes, he. comes in, I think he went to sleep at 4. in the morning or something. out and he. goes he ran through all six. >> That's my buddy Brennan Shaw. >> Is that who it was? Okay. Yeah. [laughter] It was the funniest story.

And he goes and then I just knew, you. know, like that's that's a level like. but imagine being that elite. >> and and realizing there's another level. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10. heavyweight and John wasn't even a. heavyweight. John was a light. heavyweight. >> It was a lower weight class and he just. beat everybody's ass. And he said this. is his warm-up. >> [laughter]. >> He's just kidding. They just. everybody up. I mean, he has a unique. aptitude for MMA, but also he had two.

brothers that were super athletes. Yeah. Played for the Patriots and Arthur. >> And so, these guys are super athletes. And so, they're beating the out of. each other all the time. So, they're. like constantly in competition with. elite athletes from the time he was a. child. Yeah. >> So, he was just so tuned into. competition and he he so intelligent. like his fight IQ was above and beyond. everyone's and he would study tape. meticulously. >> Well, that that that spinning kick that. he did to that. where he where he said he.

>> and I think he thanked his taekwond do. coach and he said he had been working on. this one specific kick from both sides. >> Yeah. because of something he saw in the. tape. And he and he got it off and hit. this guy so hard, not even on not even. on his liver side. He hit him on the. other side and you see it shutter. through his entire like organ structure. >> Yeah. He his heel was deep into his body. cavity like all the way up to his. gnarly like and but he had but.

he he he just practice this one specific. >> and he was like and he even said he goes. it is a devastating shot like there's. not a human being who could take that. >> No, it's like getting hit by a car. >> Yeah, >> because when you. >> But getting hit by a car in one spot. the size of a foot, the size of a 13. foot. >> Oh yeah, here it is. Watch this. >> He sets him up. Boom. It's just. >> it's like, yeah, no, it's over. It's. over. It's over. >> And this is John moving up to. heavyweight because light heavyweight. wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided.

to become a two division champion. I. mean, John was a freak. >> You see it rumbling through. >> And by the way, that was almost a little. bit glancing cuz he caught him with a. bent leg like he wasn't even fully. extended, which you know. >> was even more devast. But John realized. that as a heavyweight, he didn't have. the power that he had at light. heavyweight. And so he said, "The most. powerful kick is a spinning back kick. So I'm just going to work on that kick. over and over again because that's the. one tool that I have that can knock a. heavyweight out with one shot.". >> Wow. Okay. >> That's just.

>> It's not just the physicals of He's also. like a genius. >> He's a genius. >> Well, he's also like he's the most. meticulous when it comes to game. planning and study. He will not take a. short notice fight. Even a guy that he. could beat any day of the week. You can wake him up at 3:00 in the. morning. He could that guy up. we. will not take that fight unless he gets. a full training camp to prepare for that. fight. >> Well, it's just, you know, greatness. But John's troubled. You know, John's. been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs. and all kinds of crazy and he's, you know, he's a wild fella. And, you.

know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm. sure, has cost him a lot of in his. personal life. Yeah, [snorts]. >> but you know when he knocks Deepay out. and then did the Trump dance in front of. the whole world like [laughter]. >> for that moment he's on top of the world. you know but then again it's like the. same thing you're as soon as you get. back like what's next. >> you know there's there's another. challenge doesn't matter how many how. many people love you now like it's not. good enough there's someone else looming. you got to beat this guy.

>> that seems like a kind of an agonizing. thing to both have the like complete. compulsion to have to get to the next. level and the next level keeps. moving the goalpost. You. >> I'll never forget um I interviewed Matt. Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost. the welterweight title to BJ Penn and. I'm interviewing him inside the octagon. He said I'm going to be honest with you. is actually a relief. And he goes, "The. pressure of being the champion and. having someone chasing you for so in the. whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm.

going to be I thought it was an. incredibly. >> brave moment for a guy to say that who. is, you know, just this amazing. human being, this warrior to say, I just. got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing. my title feels like a relief.". >> And [snorts] I was like, "Wow." Like. that that is so so brave to be that. honest in front of the because. everybody's like you just got your ass. kicked. It's like I'm this is a relief. >> You know, it took a burden off my back. I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But. I I needed that. I needed to just.

>> step off the top of the hill for. a little while. Jesus Christ. >> You got to be like a great actually. relief to be able to say something like. that. It's kind of a gift instead of. feeling like you got to hide or pretend. it and go, "Yeah, I'm hiding from my. leaves. It was a lot to carry and. now I you know." Well, the thing about. fighting is everything you try to hide. gets exposed. You're exposed completely. during camp because they're doing these. these round what they take like. >> try if I was here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke up. They're. taking like, you know, five guys and.

they're rotating them in with you. So, you're doing five rounds with fresh. guys. So you got one guy who's. warmed up, getting, you know, getting. ready for you and then you're. out of breath and they give you a 30. second break instead of a minute and. then they're throwing in these monsters. and, you know, you're exposed. You're. you're getting beat in training. You're. getting smothered in training. You're. you're exhausted. You know, you're. always reaching your limits cuz the only. way to surpass those limits is to hit. them. You got to hit them and then they. got to figure out where that limit is.

and okay, next week we're going to do. one extra round. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. we got to do. more strength and conditioning. We're. going to push you past wherever your. capacity is right now. So, you're always. breaking. You're always you're always at. the point where you can do no more. because it's the only way to and you can. only maintain that like the condition. that they get in when they step into the. octagon. It's not possible to maintain. that. No, right. You can only get. >> you have to aim at that one moment and. yeah, you have to peak and then if you. up and overtrain, which a lot of. those guys do just because they're such.

savages, they never want to leave the. gym. Then they don't peak right and then. they come in and they're exhausted and. they didn't recover properly and then in. between rounds they're too tired and. they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. That happens too. >> I imagine that level of exhaustion has. to be just insane when you overtrain. >> Oh god. you're in an actual championship. >> and you realized you're there's no you. can't bounce back and this guy is. blasting your legs with kicks. and hitting you with punches and you. can't get out of the way anymore. >> Do you think who who was it? Was it.

Khabib who said that they they should. just do 25 minute just. >> Oh, a lot of people said that I mean. that's a what. songs are playing. What's going on. technology? >> The Tesy brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. >> Um, sorry about that. Uh, >> well, Hoist Gracie always said that. Like that was how he fought in the early. days. >> They just straight 25 minutes. >> because he was like, "Look," he goes, "Uh, if we're on the ground," he goes, "I don't want them to stand back up. again and go in between rounds." And he.

goes, "I need time to cook them." That's. what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was I. mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all. about. Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying. one step ahead of you until you become. exhausted and you know and then they. eventually finish you. >> like a like a just. >> throw a constrict. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's. but you know there's this balance of. like making it interesting for this for. people to watch. I I've been a proponent. of no standups. Don't ever stand anybody. up when a guy takes you down. Like you.

get an advantage at the beginning of the. round anyway because a striker gets to. be standing up when you didn't earn it. So you should never get stood up in a. fight. I don't care if the guy's doing. nothing. If he's holding you down and. you can't get up, that's how it should. be. So it's more realistic. But it's the. balance of it being a sport. People want. to watch. >> Yeah. Making it because people get when. people grab someone to take him to the. ground, nothing happen. People go, you. hear the audience and then the referee. gets a little motivated and he stands. people up and I'm always like, "Ah, don't stand them up." It's. >> I never thought of it that way that the.

beginning of the round starts it to the. advantage of the. >> always always you're you're in a. position you didn't earn you never got. back up. You know I think they should. put them right back to where they were. at the end of the round because it's one. fight. It's not five fights. So if you. start it standing up and at the. beginning of each round that's a new. fight. >> Yeah. Right. >> In a way when you're pitching like how. quickly would the UFC go out of business. if. >> real quick 30 seconds they're on the. ground and then it's 24 and a half. minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible. businessman. [laughter] I I would give.

the fighters more money. Like they would. I would up the whole business. model. I would uh I would get rid of the. cage. I would have them all fight in a. basketball court. Just put mats on the. ground in the basketball court. I don't. think you should have a cage. I think. the cage gets in the way. It becomes a. way to get back up because you press. your back up against the cage. You can. use it to stand back up again and you're. in the middle of the center of a mat. It's very difficult to get back up. And. that's realistic, >> right? you know, you're using a foreign. object to help you perform. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, >> you know, there's the whole macho thing.

about people fighting in a cage and it's. like they lock you in there [laughter]. match. >> Yeah. It's just uh but I mean in terms. of like inspirational performances and. things that you when you see like the. human spirit elevated to the the the. highest possible place when two very. skilled men or women are fighting in a. cage where they prepared for this for. three months and then you know. the referee's like are you ready? Are. you ready? Let's go. And it's like that.

moment like is it's not not like. anything else in all sports. I think. that's the moment that like people show. up for cuz they build the intensity. It's the same with like the old Tyson. fights or whatever like now it's going. to happen and there there you can't help. but have that feeling once it you know. and yeah some fights end up being. disappointing whatever but there that. moment is always there. >> Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what. we were talking about with greatness. because like you could dedicate your. whole life. You could get up in.

the morning at the right time. You could. eat all the right foods. you could do. all the right training, but then you see. that guy like smoke [laughter]. 13 seconds. >> There's nothing I can do. I have no. chance. You know, by looking at he had. the just a look in his eye and you it. was one of the only fighters where you. just see the other guy was scared. >> Usually they at least hold himself. together where they come off like, "Oh, I don't know. This guy looks pretty. tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just. would start and they'd feel that moment. too. Oh they're letting this tiger. out and here he comes. And it was like,

>> well, we're old enough to remember when. he was in his prime and those fights. were like executions. You didn't want to. pay for the pay-per-view because they. were so I I swear I mean I mean Jamie. might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm. pretty sure that they cut to Alex. Stewart and they cut to his wife and she. was crying [laughter]. >> and this is when they're coming to the. center of the ring and she But by the. way, for good reason. Like this man. might kill my husband, right? >> You know what I mean? like. >> he's certainly going to beat the. out of him and she knows it and the. world knows it and. >> guys were ready to quit. Remember that.

dude Hurricane or whatever white kid who. fought him when. >> his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel. in. He had it ready like you know he was. ready to go. All right, that's it. That's good. >> The bell rings he picks up the towel. >> Yeah, [laughter] you got save your guy's. life. You know what I mean? >> McNeel is up now, too. When you. hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to. hear. Really? Yeah. I saw him get. interviewed recently. That's the dark. side of the sport of of MMA and of. fighting. You know, you you talk like I. had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday. and Johnny Knoxville was knocked. unconscious 16 times. >> Jesus Christ.

>> Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like, "Holy man." And he seems normal. Like, he doesn't seem like he's got. brain damage. Now, when you're talking. to guys and you know they have brain. damage, they're slurring their words and. they're still fighting. >> Their words all mumble together. Like, you have no idea how much they're. struggling. >> Like, and they'll they're going to be. struggling in a downhill slope for the. rest of their life. It's not going to. get better. It's going to get way worse. cuz the real brain damage occurs like 10. years after the the injuries. That's. when it really sets up. >> Really starts like just keeps.

>> keep getting worse. I mean, there's some. therapies that they can do now. There's. uh like they they do and Knoxville did. some of it like this magnetic therapy. that they do that reimulates neuron. growth and and oddly enough mushrooms. like psilocybin has been shown to all of. a sudden cure a whole bunch of. >> I know. Well, probably always has, you. know, >> all of a sudden they acknowledging it. Yeah. >> Well, one of the things that's opening. the doors for them to acknowledge it is. soldiers. >> because it's always been kind of like a.

leftwing wing thing to be into. psychedelics, but all these soldiers are. coming back with PTSD and drug addiction. and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs. blowing up and IEDs and concussions and. the only thing that's helping them is. psychedelics. So, it's kind of like in. Texas, uh, former Governor Rick Perry. has started the Ibeane initiative. So, they're using Ibeane to help all these. different soldiers, which is ironically. the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed. Ed Musky was on when he was running for.

president. Oh, really? Yeah. [laughter]. Remember when he sank Ed Musky's? It's. if. >> What is I gain? I. >> It's from the Aboga tree. And it is a. psychedelic that is in no way. recreational. It is a very difficult. experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done. it, but my friends that have done it say. that it's basically like you see your. entire life play out before you. You see. where all your problems come from. You. see where all of your emotional hitches. are. Yeah. And with addictions, it has.

an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one. treatment, they quit whatever they're. hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the. brain. So the physical pathways to. addiction, like someone addict to. opiates, gone, completely severed. So. you literally don't have a physical. addiction to opiates anymore. So with. one treatment, 80 plus% of people. >> That's incredible. >> With two treatments, it's in the '9s. >> That's amazing. >> It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you. know, since like 1970 in this country.

The sweeping psychedelics has like a. clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry um. because he's worked with soldiers and. because he's worked with a lot of. veterans that you know and he's a very. compassionate and intelligent man, he. realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong. about all this psychedelic stuff. And so. he started getting behind this ibeane. initiative. They passed it in Texas and. now they're doing it with soldiers and. they're going to do it with police. officers. And I mean police officers. experience more PTSD. Like I I have a. good friend who was a cop in Austin and. he said and he was also in the military.

and he said what I saw in the military. was nothing compared to what I saw as a. police officer. Really? He goes, "I was. seeing death and violence on a on a. daily basis." He goes, "When you're. deployed," he goes, "Yeah, you're you're. going to see some horrible but. you're going to see some horrible. mixed in, you know, over a course of. time where, you know, you go out and. things go live." goes like every day. >> Every day you're going directly to. somebody who's having the worst moment. of their life. >> And every day you're pulling someone. over and they might shoot you. Like you. have no idea. You're you're pulling up. to uh tinted windows. You don't know.

what the is going on. You're. running the plate. The the license is. expired. You have no idea who's who's in. the car. You don't you don't know. anything. And you've seen all the. videos. We've all seen videos of cops. getting shot down like when they're. pulling over a car. We've all seen it. And so these guys are living with this. PTSD all the time. And then they. have to live in real life. They they're. supposed to go home and they're supposed. to just be a normal dad and a normal. neighbor. And their head is just. a hurricane of chaos.

>> And I gain has been very beneficial for. those people to just just sort of come. down and and try to find the root of all. this stuff and and get them off pills. and and get them on the straight. >> That's great. >> Wow. >> Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we. got on the mushrooms. Oh, I because uh. during the Trump during the presidential. elections, he he started spreading these. rumors and it's in the the documentary. uh I what is it that documentary? Is it. Fear and Loathing?

>> Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that. documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it. So, he's getting interviewed by Dick. Cavitt and he goes [laughter] he goes, "Yeah." He goes, "There was a a rumor. running around that uh Ed Musky was on. Ibagain and I I knew about it because uh. I started that rumor. [laughter]. But he made I sold it to him. >> So the guy completely cracked. So like. this guy was like a frontr runner for. the president and he completely. cracked because everybody thought that. he was on drugs cuz H Conter Thompson. was just running around like saying.

there's these Brazilian witch doctors. who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy. >> That's [laughter] great. >> They were like and Hunter would know. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose. Ibgainane, too, because Ibgainane is. like it's not a recreational drug and. it's not a drug of addiction. It's a. literally a drug that stops addiction. >> But that he was the guy that would have. the full c the whole book's full of. these esoteric drugs you never. heard of that you mentioned really. casual way like four of us stopped to. get ibeine at the one gas station that. sold between [laughter] needles and.

nothing. >> Yeah, sure. No, of course you did. >> But it it does help people that have uh. brain damage as well. It's it's supposed. to like cause some sort of neuro. >> regeneration. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's stuff out there that can help. people, but uh a large percentage of. these fighters are silently suffering. and we don't ever hear about it. >> They say like it's supposed to be that. it's that like the argument is is. because it's you know they're not using. a glove like that football supposed to. be wor I mean wasn't that the sort of. rationale that like you were going to.

have less impact in boxing because the. the boxing gloves? No, but it's remember. it's all it's like the subconcussive. blows. It's like the it's not. necessarily the the the one shot. knocking you out as much as the repeated. >> kind of like small like little bit of. brain bleed. >> I'm sure it's like they're all bad for. you. You know what I mean? Like a. version of. >> knocks to the head are not a thing to be. avoided. Yeah. >> Well, it's also what you take in. training, too. We're only considering. what happens during a fight. If a guy. has 40 50 MMA fights, that's 40.

>> How many rounds does he have right in. the gym? Yeah. Oh, training camp is. brutal. And depending upon how. intelligent your camp is. Like some. people are really smart and they'll spar. where they're not hitting each other. hard and then maybe one day of the week. they go live, but you do it with. trusted, you know, they're they're very. close to you. These are people that you. care about and love, so they're not. going to try to hurt you on purpose. >> But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're. in a hostile gym and you know, you got. to spar with people you don't even know. They're from other countries. You have a. big name. They're trying to take you.

out. you know, it's um but the the. amount of damage these guys take. I. mean, I don't know if football's better. or worse. They're all But the thing. about football is the big impacts are. way worse because when you've got a 300B. super athlete that's full tilt. all the way from across. >> boom. running start. >> Yeah. you're getting hit by a truck. >> and that but that doesn't it's it's not. targeted necessarily at your head. So.

it's like what what is better and what. is worse. You know, boxing's bad. You. know, it's like. >> you have less options. MMA is slightly. better because if especially if you're a. grappler, you can take guys down and you. can beat them up on the ground, but it's. ultimately. >> you're paying a price make a. living for sure. But for that glory, for. that one moment when they win and the. 16,000 people are on their feet. screaming, there's probably no drug like. that that could ever reproduce it. And. those guys chase that high for their.

entire life and then after it's over, they, you know, they feel oddly. detached, >> right? >> And nothing ever rises to that level. again, >> right? You can make films until you're a. hundred years old. You know, you can. make great films forever. You can do the. thing that you love forever. They have a. little window, a little window of. greatness. really tough thing about. being an athlete like I. >> we were talking to Pete Sampress that. time we met Sam years ago and he was. like we were probably I don't know how. we were 30 he was 32 or something like. that. >> and he was kind of we were like oh my. god you know he had all these.

you know wins and grand slams and he he. had a kind of vaguely like yeah he was. like hey you guys look I I'm about to. retire it's I'm finished and we're you. know young guys were you know. >> just getting started you know what I. mean like we're also the thing is you. get better. >> at your job the more you do it Yeah. You. know, so it's that thing with the. athlete. I was having this conversation. the other day. It's like you have all. the physical skills at the beginning, but you become a better, you know, better at your sport. >> Yeah. >> You know, as your skills are declining.

and. >> the body just doesn't want to do it. anymore. >> And you've got to just comp become Greg. Maddox, you know, and compensate with. all the tricks and location and but like. and that's why that drama of like the. aging athlete is so powerful. still have. it. It's like all do we still have it in. me? Can I still do it? How long, you. know, is what I've learned enough to. compensate for what I've lost? You know, >> well, there's an interesting story about. Vtor Belelffort. So, Vtor Belelffort was.

he won the UFC heavyweight tournament. when he was 19 years old. That was like. the first event I ever worked at, 1997. I mean, he was like one of the all-time. greats for sure. But as he was getting. into his 30s, he was starting to. decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters. to use testosterone replacement therapy. and boy did he use it. Okay, [laughter] I don't know what his levels. were, but they were like superhuman. levels. And there was a moment in time. for a few years where they allowed him. to use testosterone therapy and people.

refer to it as the TRT Vtor years. because he was terrifying. because he has the mind of a veteran. Incredible amount of experience. But now. his body is moving like a 25-year-old. And so he was just annihilating people. just lighting people on fire. >> So they're not allowed to use. testosterone or. >> No, they can't use anything. >> Um, >> no. >> No. How about peptides? Can they use. peptides? Nope. Nope. Not even peptides. They're trying to take that and and. reform that. But there's a lot of.

ignorance about peptides, what they. actually do. I mean, all it's allowing. you to do soft tissue injuries, heal. quicker, and optimize your body's. ability to produce hormones. So, instead. of adding exogenous hormones, you're. allowing your body to produce them more. naturally, and it'll it just makes you. more healthy. for a very unhealthy job. and where you're, you know, you're. getting hurt all the time. It's it's. going to be better for the sport, better. for the athletes to allow them to all. use it. And it's also there's no. long-term damage that's going to do like. steroids where it shuts down your. endocrine system.

>> So, I hope they reform it. But the idea. was that there's so many. loopholes and so many people cheat. Big. camps used to hire scientists. So they. had a scientist on staff that was not. only. >> he do. >> Yeah. Exactly. Not only procuring stuff. that that would slip by the test because. there's like you know the Balco stuff. with Barry Bond clear. >> there. There's there's stuff probably. right now that people are using that's. slipping through and there's a lot of. experts that have like one of the things.

is animal derived testosterone. So. testosterone one of the they do they use. a carbon isotope test. I think I believe. that's how they use to figure out where. the testosterone came from. So if your. testosterone is like at a very high. level, they test all your other ratios. They go, "Well, no, it all seems likely. He's just he's an outlier. He just has. naturally high testosterone." But. testosterone that you get from like. synthetic testosterone is derived from a. wild yam,

>> believe it or not. Yes. Yeah. It's not. It's not animal derived testosterone. So. the composite of it varies when they run. the tests on it and they can determine. >> they can determine that it's a yam based. testosterone. >> it's exogenous not indogenous. >> yam they're fighting it's not heavy. [laughter]. >> but if they could figure out a way to ex. and there's a lot of proof of concept of. this can they figure out a way to. extract testosterone from animal sources. >> bold testosterone. >> something like that well toine that's. they used to inject Hitler with torine. >> you know Hitler was like a. guinea pig for this one doctor who tried. a bunch of on him and one of the.

things they did was like inject him with. bull testicles and stuff. They try to. keep him viral. Yeah. But but there probably are. athletes right now that are using some. that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, "No, no, no. loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. I. vitamins and. >> Right." But the problem with IVs is you. can mask testosterone and and and mask. steroids by overflooding the body with. liquids. So if you overflow so then when.

you. >> So the ratio is high because like you. add more water it's you would just fill. them up with saline and then when they. go to piss like nope clean look at the. ratio it's. >> cuz it's like so much water is being. processed through the body that it. doesn't have time to show the. testosterone. So there's a way to mask. it especially with like things that you. would add to the IV. Um, so there's no. you can't do it's only food and approved. supplements through like really high. level labs like Thor, like Thorn.

supplements where it's third party. tested. >> So they don't they can't do anything. But for a while they let him do it and. uh those TRT VOR days are my favorite. fights to watch. [laughter]. >> Did they stop doing fighting because. they thought it was like advantaging. certain people or they happened. that they're like this is up or. was. >> Well, they look look at the difference. That's TRT Vtor on the left and that's. him on the right when they made him get. off of it. >> Look at the difference. >> Jesus. >> I mean, that's stunning. On the. left though, dude, that was. terrifying. When Luke Rockol fought him,

he told me, he goes, "Dude, when I stood. next to him at the weigh-ins, he. had muscles on his teeth.". >> He goes, "This dude was so. jacked. He was so scared." I was like, "What the is he on?". >> He goes, "He knew he was on something.". It's just It's cheating. It really is. because you can jack your levels way. above a normal human beings because. that's what a lot of guys there was a. few fighters that were pulled from cards. because like say if a really high levels. like 1100 they were testing like 18900.

they were like people that have never. lived before. >> they were like a science project. >> They had different species. >> and they were most insane confidence cuz. they were essentially like a raging. gorilla. They were just insanely. confident and just it's just so fired up. like they couldn't wait to smash. somebody because they were just. maniacal. They're a berserker, you know? So you it's not a person anymore. Now. now you're a science project. It's not, you know, there are rare outliers who. like Tyson when he was in his prime.

It's rare physical specimens and like. that's part of the game, but that's God, you know, that's nature. This is not, you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't. allow him to do anything anymore. And. that's why it's cuz too many and VTOR. was one of the guys that tested like way. over the line and then they just decided. >> like but that's what they're going to. do. If you say. >> if you say it's legal, they're just. going to take as much as good more is. better. And you know. >> Yeah. If you say you did one cc a week, they're like I heard five. I heard five. cc's. And these guys are just training. five times a day and they never get.

tired and they recover like that. So and. they they never have to worry about soft. tissue injuries cuz they they heal like. you're a six-year-old, you know? And you just your body just like. [laughter]. Wolverine. >> Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing. about peptides, too. The Wolverine. stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if. you ever get injured. If you ever get. injured, get immediately on BP157 and. TB500. >> I didn't hear about TB500, which what's. that one? >> Thyin Beta 500. It's in conjunction with. BPC 157. It is a phenomenal.

stack and just really helps injuries. >> I didn't know they called it the. Wolverine stack. >> That's what they call it, the Wolverine. stack. Yeah, cuz you heal. incredibly well. Like you like it. quickly. I was talking to a pro football. player pulled his hamstring. He's like, "Dude, I I shot that right into my. hamstring for two weeks and I was right. back on the field." I was like, "That's. nuts.". >> I go, "What is a normal rehab?" He goes, "Three months.". >> He goes, "In two weeks I was back on the. field." I go, "What the f?" He goes, "I. don't know how bad the injury was." He. goes, "But to me it's like I. pulled my hamstring. I'm now for. x amount of days." He goes, "In two.

weeks later, I was playing full tilt.". >> Wow. >> I'm like, that's nuts. and going right. into the area of the injury. >> Right into it. Some people think you. don't have to do that. They think it's, you know, systemic. So, you just like. stick it in your fat on your on your. side. But he's like, "No." And most. athletes will tell you the best benefit. is local. Shoot it locally into the area. and it just has. >> like uh cortisone or whatever. Where is. it? What is the. >> cortisone? But cortisone just mass. >> numbs it or whatever. Yeah. >> Not only that, it it has a tendency if. you do it too many times to weaken.

tendons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so it could actually. exacerbate the problem because it takes. away the pain. >> Measure, right? >> Yeah. It takes away the pain. But. >> I mean, you know, then there's the. enhanced games that are coming out in. Vegas this year where they're like, >> I know my my friend had that idea a long. time ago. He was like, you should just. do the the the the drug Olympics for. cash. He goes, "Do it in Vegas for. cash." And then then the enhanced games. came. I sent him a tell. I was like, "They're doing it." [snorts]. >> The game. >> and it's just like. >> I'm down. I love Let's see what a human. being can do.

>> I That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy. Sosa and those guys were cracking out. home runs, it was one of the most. exciting times in baseball. They didn't do anything. They knew it. wasn't a mystery to anybody. But. Avery's tuning in. The Bash Brothers. baseball on a strike, you know? They. almost destroyed that league and. then people started watching home runs. and everyone and then Bonds is like, "Well, >> these two guys are hitting this. many home runs. I'm the best player in. baseball." Which he was. And when he did.

it, it was lights out. Yeah. You know, I. mean, he had a year where he only swung. and missed 26 times. 162 games, three. [laughter] and a half bats a game. Only. swung and missed 20. I mean, that's. just, >> you know, and yeah, Magguire get like. just like move his wrist to get the ball. out of the park and it was like, yeah, it was fun to watch. And when people say. like steroids don't make you a better. athlete, well, they don't maybe don't. make you a better athlete, [laughter]. >> but if you're a Barry, if. >> you're already an elite athlete, yeah, it makes Let Jon Jones do all the juice.

he wants. He'd be fighting until he's 50. and people up. And you say, "John, we we've we really come to our. senses. Like, this sport's all about. excitement. Want to give the people what. they want. Give people let people make. informed choices based on their own. discretion.". >> Oh, it's like, >> "Welcome back. Welcome [laughter] back.". Then all a sudden, John looks like Vtor. in that picture. >> He'd be undefeated. >> By the way, John beat Vtor when Vtor was. in his prime. And Vtor caught Jon in a. full arm bar, totally locked his arm. out, hyperextended, popped it, went.

backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't. tap and then beat him in the next round. >> with one arm. >> Yep. One arm. His arm was. for like a year after that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Give that man some steroids. Let's. [laughter] see what he can do. >> Steroids. Let him be the king of the. world. >> Yeah. The dream team. It's like remember. the first time the the the pros went to. the Olympics, whatever the years, won. every game by 70 points. You know, it. wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot. of fun. >> Well, the argument for that made sense.

though because like these other people. are being compensated in their. countries. >> Oh yeah, I had no problem. And then by. the way, now it's got more that last. Olympic championship was that was a. great game against France. That was. fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they. they're they're going to wreck some. smaller countries and stuff, but. >> okay, that you're playing pros, they're. playing pros. the whole definition of. amateurism has gotten a little bit like. you know. >> yes it's it's it's people find like a. convenient definition of it according to. what's there like you see in college. sports is changing and stuff like look I. got no problem if you're going to apply. the rules evenly but sometimes when it.

feels like it's just an excuse to like. for the NCAA to make a billion dollars. off the TV deal like no no you guys. you're getting you're getting education. >> it's like a little bit like yeah. education you guys making a lot of money. because people want to see Nebraska play. >> it's exploitation. >> yeah and I'm glad they've changed that. with college sports because these guys. are the reason why you're filling up the. seats and they they deserve that money. >> and not every one of them is going to be. in the NFL, right? >> You know what I mean? Some of them. that's their window to make that. money. You know what I mean? Like it's. hard in the NFL.

>> And the risk of catastrophic injury is. always there. >> is constant constant. Yeah. >> And and and the the the metrics for it's. like what is it a two two and a half. year career or something. >> depending on your position. But I mean. it's it's such a. >> that seems just fair and obvious. So you. pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of. college, but not to like, you know, come. on. >> Well, that's the great thing about doing. something where you're not relying on. your body like acting. >> You can you can kind of do it forever, you know? >> Yeah. Keep going till you lose it, you. know what I mean? It's really Yeah, it's.

great. And it's got its own competitive. aspect and it's a lot, you know, but. >> like, okay, great. If it's if you will. bet on yourself and then the expectation. is, well, I got to do something that's. interesting enough that people want to. watch it. Well, that's the proposition. anyway. How do you guys decide like on. projects that you you choose? Like I'm. sure you have so many options now. Like. what what makes you say this is what I'm. going to spend the next six months. doing? >> It's really I mean there are a bunch of. different factors like like the director. is being the most important one. But but.

if you read a script and and like we've. read so many thousands and thousands of. scripts and written so many scripts and. worked on so many movies that that if if. we read something and it and it it's. that thing we were talking about. earlier, you know, you get that get that. kind of emotional something happens when. you read it. you go, "Okay, well," then. you then you pay attention to it, maybe. read it again, go, "Wait a minute." You. know, if it if it if it moves you in. that in that way, then, you know, ultimately the big decision is saying.

yes because. >> because you're going to spend. >> Yeah. the last point over which you have. >> total control, right? >> You know, and then you're in. >> Then you're in and and you're and you're. in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew a. month into a six-month shoot that like. this is not going to work. [laughter]. And that that is that is the. >> it's just the worst. >> It is I I I came to think of that. It. happened to me. >> They're going to shoot us all when it. comes out. >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter]. >> It's like it's all bad. >> Go to work. You know,

>> it's like it's it's going to be it's. going to be 80 16 hour days in a row and. then uh a a post-production period. that's going to be pretty fraught and. then it's going to come out and we're. going to get crushed. >> and then you're going to have to sell. it. You're going to have to walk the. plank and sit down with access. >> You know what I mean? like so saw the. movie. How important is that stuff still. today? Like the press stuff, is that. still important? >> It is. I don't know to what degree each. specific thing is. I mean,

>> it's kind of ironic because we were. talking about coming on this show today. and we were saying I was like doing this. show more meaningful in than the rest of. the we do in aggregate to promote. this movie. Like we spent this whole. week in New York doing, you know, I. don't know how many interviews, you. know, the the quick ones with all the. outlet, >> five minute interviews, all the the the. evening shows, the day shows, >> all that stuff and and this just given. how many people listen to the show will. be more meaningful. We think I mean. that's our we were speculating but.

>> his historically right if you look at it. that's it because they've changed to. like all of it feels kind of produced. and forced and advertised and and people. have become resistant to anything that. feels kind of like a gimmick and a. shtick and you go on and you do your. song and dance and they say the thing it. looks great and you and nobody cares. like they're looking to go either. because somebody they know says it's. interesting or somebody that they is. trusted and a trusted person is in like. your like you say your feed right and. it's your friend or your your cousin or. or they affix that to somebody which has. become a more rare thing like who's a.

like a legitimate neutral arbiter, right? Who I can't predict what they're. going to say before I go there. There. are few of those fewer and fewer of. those people in the world even those are. proliferation of more and more voices. and I it's kind of paradoxical like the. form of entertainment is getting shorter. and shorter and shorter. So you're like. a 7-second, you know, we had an. advertising company. We we do most of. the spots that we release like 15-second. spots, six-second spots for social, the. ones most people see. And then there's.

this one form, which is like long form. discussions that are whatever two hours. long. And the amazing to me is, you. know, in a world where it seems like you. can't get people to pay attention for. more than, you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So. there's like this form and that's why. you see these are getting more popular. obviously have this massive audience and. it's and it it's kind of flying in the. face of the whole other trend and I. think and I don't know that it probably. has something to do with like who do I.

think is authentic and am I actually. going to willing to extend my two hours. of my time to sit there and listen. through and and that an argument that. people probably do appreciate and. understand conversations that have. context and nuance and where there's. like a back and forth. They're just much. more selective about who they're willing. to kind of. give that sort of voice to in their. life. >> It's also the voice of the public, too, because when people start talking about. things online and things go viral online.

and people just start like saying how. great they love the film or how great. this album is or something like that, it. just takes off organically now. >> Yeah. And that has more more weight than. anything. If you feel like somebody else. who obviously has no dog in the fight is. going, "Hey, this is great. You should. see I'm the same thing. If I hear. somebody tell me like, you know, who I. respect, hey, you got to see that thing, that means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if. the closer you can get to that, which is. why that I think the act of a like. telling the same, you know, like telling.

the same like story about you should go. see the movie to a bunch of people with. a certain like limited reach, it's just. it's just not that efficient. But you. have to because it's like well we sat. down with our own Trisha Zanaka and. talked about the mo you know and you. kind of do that ostensibly because it. means a little bit more in that in that. market. But I think ultimately it's it's. like more and more people see realize. they're being sold to see through the. act and the sort of of. it. They recognize that you know you go.

out and sell every movie. You know what. I mean? The good and the bad. And then. we got to decide well which one and and. who can you count on? Well, it's mostly. going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend, and and now you can see. that person in your media experience, you know. >> Yeah. And I think it's also we know that. when you're sitting down with extra or. these like that's just their job to sit. down with people, they're not doing it. because they want to, right? >> You know, it's like they got told go. talk to that person. >> And we got told go talk to them. So, we.

go do the ritual and they say the thing. they say and we say the thing we say. >> and everyone goes home and says we did. our job. >> That's the benefit of an independent. podcast is that like like with me I. don't talk to anybody I don't want to. talk to. It's just like I. [clears throat] I I literally do the. whole thing on my phone. I go oh yeah. that sounds cool and that's it. >> But like that I think means a lot at. least this person is making this choice. and I've listened to it a bunch and I I. actually find myself agreeing with it a. lot of the time. I'm so hard right I'll. give it a shot that you know it's. exactly. >> I think also like this format like at.

least I know why it why I started. listening to podcasts was because uh in. in the world like the the divisive kind. the way everybody was talking these. sound bites and all this and and. and it was just like the ability to just. listen to human beings talk often who. who had different points of view but. like had a civil conversation. >> Yeah. was like was such a welcome thing, you know, given the given the kind of. the hysterical. kind of, you know, uh, frenzy of of of.

of divisiveness that's kind of it just. feels it's just like, >> you know, the it's like I if I open my. phone and look at the news, I like. >> It's like, put it down. It's just it's. it's like uh I feel my cortisol level go. up. and to actually hear people be. listen to people I know I don't agree. with but listen to them and just and. just think about it. You know what I. mean? I mean approach life with a little. bit of humility. >> Not hold on to what you believe. obviously but but but keep listening.

>> It's also there's not a lot of. opportunities in the real world to have. long conversations with people. So. people are kind of starving for that. >> I know. Isn't it funny that this has. become the shared cultural like we. listen to that podcast and then actually. experience that because and also people. why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that. because they compress it and because the. truth it's money because actually doing. that is not with money. it's just. ratings and the perceived idea that like. well if you simplify it or you you.

position it one way or that you engender. outrage um that's simple or just you. know pure one-sided ideas that are that. are simple um you know but the news used. to be the idea was look here's the FCC. we're going to let these networks. broadcast their shows and make money on. it but here's the deal you got to give. an hour of that and lose money on that. hour to tell the news and try to tell it. objectively then it started to be no you. got to make money for for that hour too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell.

the truth or reports or any of those. things. And people try to hybridize. them, but at the end of the day, you're. a more successful reporter if more. people watch you because advertisers pay. more and then they're doing the same. thing, looking at their data, you know, grand what are people watching, what. kinds of stories and and I I think this. is simple answers because you're just. you're making it into a profit game. those incentives are not aligned with. >> just trying to get down to like even. reporting basic facts. >> Yeah. It's a weird time. It's like we.

have more access to information than. ever before, but so much of it is just. horseshit. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's it's hard to stay. balanced. Yeah. >> And I think that's why it's good to like. listen to people just talk. >> and and then you recognize like the. flaws in their thinking. You feel ego. You feel deception. You know, >> it's true. people will reveal. themselves. Like you actually we. actually don't need that many. editorialists to be constantly telling. us what to think and how to think. People actually have pretty good. instincts. You know, if someone's.

bullshitting you eventually, they'll. kind of hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe. Uh after a while, he kind of started repeating his. sticktick and I kind of he didn't really. talk about what I was wondering about. And you form your own that's like. forming your own judgment. >> Pete Buddhajed actually talked about. that being dangerous on podcasts. He's. like, "Because you you go on there and. you have your points, but you'll get. revealed over the course of a few. hours." Like, you can only stick to. these lines. >> Yeah. You get talking points and. for and then.

>> and then what happens is people just. like there was an art to like look at. how great the communicator they stick to. the message and they do their points. We. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any. longer than that, it just starts to look. like a robot on, you know, and. like I said, what we need to follow. through with, you know, I saw you do the. same hand gesture and the same bit with. that, but you know, >> sometimes you find out they're full of. just by having them talk about. other things. >> You know, like tell me, do you like. cooking? You know, like just like and. then you just see like some concocted.

>> they're thinking what makes me look good. if about cooking that I should. >> Well, I tell you what, because Americans. [laughter]. exactly it like. >> do I cook or do I not? What what would I. >> Does that make me feminine or does it. make me open to cultural? You It's just. like, >> yeah, >> what do you like to cook, man? I don't. cook. You know, >> well, that's the other thing about. people that are online too much is. they're so concerned with other people's. opinions that they don't have enough. time to formulate their own. >> They're just so concerned with how. people are going to perceive everything.

you say that you're like handcuffed. You're like terrified to misspeak. >> Right. Right. >> I think that in general is a real. danger. I mean, you we were. talking the other day, we were saying. about like one of the ver benefits of. getting older and and doing this for a. long time is. >> you realize like nobody really gives a. as much about you as you thought. You know, you just kind of nobody gives. a Nobody remembers. You. >> spend your 20s and 30s thinking like. this is really important and then you. realize no one come [laughter]. off and what's going to be no one. actually cares. It's not that big a.

deal. Nobody. >> most people are mostly worrying about. themselves in their life and they Yeah. There's this illusion that they pay a. passing moment of attention or it's in. some story or it's like you're. staring at it because it's about you, right? You know, you know that you said. that about me. Nobody else really. >> Nobody cares. >> And if they do, they're usually. up. Like something's wrong. Why. concentrate on this other person's life? >> You're probably trying to ignore your. own right? >> Yeah. >> Well, listen, man. Your movie is. awesome. Uh I've loved so much of your. your films over the years, so it's been.

really cool to be able to have you guys. in here and talk about this. It's been. great. >> Thanks for having us. >> Two very normal, nice movie stars. [laughter]. >> You guys are cool as. >> Give us a couple more hours. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the. rip. It's great. And uh. everybody go see it. It's great. I loved. it. Thank you. Thanks for being here. All right. Pleasure. >> Bye, everybody. [music].