Joe Rogan Experience #2437 - Rand Paul

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> Nice to meet you, sir. >> Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be in. Austin. You know, >> have you been here? You've been here. before. >> You know, I grew up in Texas and so we. used to come up here uh for live music. I went to Baylor and there was no music, no dancing. If you want to hear some. live music, you came to Austin. So, I've. been here many times. >> Nice. It's a great spot. Uh so here's.

your book, Deception, the Great Coverup. You were uh a lone voice of reason. during the pandemic that uh you know, for me, you were extremely valuable and. uh I was cheering you on every step of. the way when you were grilling Anthony. Fouchy. With all due respect, you do not. know what you are talking about. That. that guy was driving me [ __ ] crazy. It was it was mind-numbing how many.

people were going along with it and how. many people just accepted what he was. saying, ignored all the evidence that. pointed to gain of function research, didn't freak out when it was quite. obvious that he was lying about gain of. function research. And I just thank God. that you were grilling him and at least. it was on the record and we could all. watch it and see it. One of the greatest. tragedies, and we knew this within days, was that children weren't getting sick, but that should have been used to our. advantage. Children did not get sick. No.

child without a healthy without a health. issue really died. >> Well, they got sick, but it wasn't. dangerous for them. My kids both got it, >> right? But most of them had a very mild. illness. And the point is is that we. knew this in China in the first couple. of weeks, and we could have left the. schools open. And some countries left. the schools open. For the most part, Sweden left their schools open and. treated this completely different and. turned out with a similar everybody. wound up with a similar death rate with. primarily the people dying were people.

were older and overweight or both, >> right? And well, the argument was you. going to bring it home and you're going. to infect your grandma and she's going. to die. >> All right, that was. >> the argument didn't really hold water. though because everybody got it anyway. And so, >> but we didn't know that in the. beginning, right? In the beginning, they. were lying and they were saying that. although we now know that there was no. data that showed that the vaccine. stopped infection and stopped. transmission, >> but here's another thought. You could. have said, "Yeah, kids could take it to. their grandparents. So, until the kid.

has gotten it and recovered for two. weeks, tell them not to visit their. grandparents." You know what I mean? >> Well, the problem was the people that. live with their grandparents. >> Yeah, I know. And there would be the. exceptions to the rule. But most of the. people the death rate we already knew in. China was very very small once you added. in the kids. Initially they were saying. it was a 3% death rate which would have. been instead of 1 million people you. know would have been significantly more. 3 million people may have died but they. knew that the death rate was less than. that in China early on. But part of the.

reason they thought it was so high is. they weren't counting all the. asymptomatic cases. you know, they knew. how many people were sick and how many. people died, but the denominator was the. number of people who actually were sick. or who actually got the infection, but. they weren't counting millions of. people. And uh but Anthony Fauci denied. this at every step. He denied that. natural immunity would protect you. And. one of [clears throat] my favorite. quotes was from a guy named Martin. Culdorf. He was an epidemiologist at. Harvard who ended up getting fired. But. recently he tweeted out, it was about a.

year or two ago. So he said, "Well, we. knew about natural immunity from the. time of the Athenian plague in 436 BC, and we knew that knowledge until 2020. Then we lost all knowledge of natural. immunity. But the good news is in 2025, we're starting to get back that. knowledge." But this was Anthony Fouchy. knew better. You know, he he he couldn't. even read his own basic immunology books. about, you know, the fact that you do. develop immunity. Is it perfect? No. Can. you get COVID more than once? Yes. But I.

defy you to tell me somebody who got it. the second time who died the second. time. You know what I mean? People got. it less severely so the second time they. got it, if they got it at all. >> Much less severely. So I got it twice. and the second time I couldn't even. believe it was actually COVID. Was back. when we were testing every day. We would. test all the guests. We would test all. the staff right. >> before we did the show. And I came in. and I had the sniffles. That's it. And. they said, "Do you have CO?" And I was. like, "This is hilarious.". >> And I understand you did so well because. your personal doctor was Sanjay Gupta. >> [laughter].

>> That is that clip of you and and he on. the program is my favorite clip of all. time. >> I don't know what he thought was going. to happen. [laughter]. >> I think he just thought he was going to. come in here and CNN was going to send. their medical mercenary in with all his. knowledge, >> right? >> But you can't argue with someone when. you can't use facts, >> right? So he didn't have any facts at. his disposal and he was working for a. network that was openly lying about me. taking veterinary medicine. Like the.

whole thing was. >> surreal. And for someone who is, >> you know, up until 2020, I mean, I was. reasonably distrustful of mainstream. news, but in a normal way. Like I'm sure. they bend things a little bit or twist. things a little bit. I I would have. never thought I would watch a campaign. against me like that where every night. it was horse dewormer, horse dewormer, Joe Rogan, dangerous conspiracy. theories, COVID denier, vaccine denier.

I was like, this is fascinating. >> I think it it brings up a broader. question too that when people tell you. there's a consensus and because the. consensus exists, you cannot object. I. think that's a real danger to openness. to new ideas but it's also a danger in. medicine and and in medicine to say this. is the consensus and we're not going to. do this. So in the first month of this. maybe first or second month Fouchy comes. in and I said you know many people who. die from the flesheating bacteria which. is not the same but it's a serious.

illness the what they give them to try. to treat them to prevent death and loss. of limbs is highdose IV steroids and I. had a friend whose life was saved. He. didn't lose any of his limbs and he had. this terrible illness. And so I asked. Anthony Fouchy, I said, "Do you think. there's a chance as they're getting very. very sick and their lungs are filling up. with fluid that we could try highdose IV. steroids like we do in other. infections?" And he says, "Oh, no, no, we've tried that." Turns out, and we we. mentioned this in the book, the best. treatment when you were just about to go. on the ventilator or on the ventilator.

when you have a 50% chance of dying at. that point was IV steroids. An old. generic medicine that big pharma doesn't. make much money off of. >> Which steroids in particular would they. use? >> It's it's called solumedrol, but it's. just IV steroids. And it was a 36%. reduction in death, which is pretty. significant when you're in the ICU. The. people in the ICU were very very sick. It was a a third of them had a reduction. in death by by taking IV steroids. But. he was dismissing it from the very. beginning and already acting like, "Oh,

I know it's not going to work and we're. going to try rem deseed out not to work. very well." Not only that, it gives. people kidney failure. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, he has a history of. using medicine that has already been. through the approval rating with, you. know, what they did with ACT during the. the pandemic of AIDS, >> right? And uh that proved to be. horrific, a terrible disaster. It's just. amazing that the same guy ran the same. playbook, you know. >> Yeah. No, it it was really sad. And the.

other thing about natural immunity that. needed to be brought up is so all the. people that were declared essential kept. working. Like if you worked in a meat. processing fac, these are hardworking. people. Many of them, you know, they. they're busting their butt all day long. and there'd be like 296 people at a meat. packing place in Missouri. All of them. got COVID. Most of them survived. But. what we should have been telling them is. two weeks after you got it, come back to. work. You don't have to wear a mask now. You've had it. You have immunity. You. won't spread it to your family. And. guess what? All the unknown about.

whether you're going to die or not. You. survived and you're done. But instead, we told people, you might get it again, and you still might die, and you got to. wear a mask all day long. When in. reality, we should have been celebrating. the people who recovered and letting. them have their freedom back. Well, there was also this kooky thing where. after you got over the disease, they. wanted you to get vaccinated, >> which was strange. It was almost like. you they wanted you to join the team, like take the blood oath. >> Yeah. I I met a man in Orange County and. his mom was like 83 and she was very.

sick and she ultimately died during. during from COVID probably, but she went. to the hospital with COVID. They. wouldn't admit her until she was. vaccinated for COVID while she had. COVID, which is actually against all. recommendations. And this is the problem. with the mass vaccination thing. If. you're going to Walgreens, do you think. they ask you if you've had COVID. recently before they gave you a shot? And so really, the the best medical. recommendation for a young person is. one, you don't need the COVID vaccine, but you certainly shouldn't be taking it.

close to when you've had an infection. because you've got an immune response. that's going against the disease. Then. you add in another stimulant to it. that's actually related to an increase. in the rate of the heart inflammation. that comes along with vaccinating some. of the young people. >> Well, there's also the weirdness of the. what what happened during the Reagan. administration with vaccines where. they're no longer liable for any vaccine. injuries. And when you call this a. vaccine, it's very different than any. vaccine that had ever been used before.

But yet you have all of these injuries. that people have no recourse. >> Yeah. My dad was in Congress at the time. and voted against you know giving them. the liability protection and he also was. there when they had the swine flu. epidemic and in that more people died. from the swine flu vaccine and I think. there were no deaths from swine flu. They said oh it's going to take over the. world and you know we're going to lose. you know 5% of our public. Nobody died. the um epidemic quickly stopped but then.

several people got gillon beret and a. few people died from the vaccine and I'm. not against vaccines look there many. miracles to vaccines but they should be. used judiciously and the risks and. benefit for each individual and it turns. out co had an age differential that was. more significant probably than any. disease we've ever seen it really was an. old person's disease. >> yeah an old person and people with. coorbidities. It was really bad for obese people. But.

you know, the disease aside, what what. was it like for you to watch this play. being run? Because that's essentially. what it was. It was like there was a. play being run and you had to follow. whatever their narrative was to the tea. or you'd be attacked. You you I mean and. you would see these people that were. acting like soldiers for for the. pharmaceutical drug complex. I mean they.

would they would go out there and just. brutally attack anybody who deviated. from the narrative, say the most awful. things, talk about how you there was. blood on your hands and like it was very. strange. Well, the the the belief in the. vaccines and the belief that you should. do it was like a religious belief and. that's the way they treated it. So, if. you didn't believe in it, you were you. someone to be demonized as a. non-believer. You were to be cast out. and you weren't patriotic if you weren't.

wearing a mask. And even after I've. already had it, I'm walking down the. hallway, you know, between the office. buildings and the capital and all those. reporters, they're 22 years old. Most of. them are journalist majors. They never. had a science course in their life and. they're lecturing me about why I should. be wearing a mask. And it's like, I. already had the disease. I've been I've. healed up 3 weeks. I don't need to wear. a mask. I'm I've got immunity. Well, how. do you know that? But even in the. beginning when they said they didn't. know, they did know. We had a a outbreak. in 2003. It was a different corona.

virus. It was the first SARS virus, but. we knew that those people 17 years later. still had TE-C cells and still had. immunity to it. One of the my favorite. stories and we include this in the book. was there was a woman and she was 102. She goes to the hospital and they bring. her family in. They're talking to her. daughter who's 85. Says, "We don't think. your mom's going to make it." And she. said, "Have you met my mom?" And they. and she survived. But while she was. there, they decided to test her for.

antibodies to the Spanish flu because. when she was six months old, her mother. was coming across the Atlantic. Her mom. died from the Spanish flu. She got it. survived. They tested her a hundred. years later. She still had antibodies to. the Spanish flu. So, immunity lasts a. long damn time. >> Wow. That's crazy. >> But what was it like being. in the government and and seeing all. this play out and that it was illogical?

It it didn't make any sense, but yet. everyone was following the playbook. Um. well people without any kind of. scientific background were lecturing. people. Uh Sherrod Brown, Sheridan Brown. from Ohio I was a senator. He was the. worst. He would stop the proceedings and. start pointing and yelling at me for not. having a mask in the house. They made. him wear the mask and so he got. everybody in there with a mask. I got. the the infection like in March of 2020. So I got it just as it came over. I'm. all healed up. I volunteered in the. hospital when I was done because I had.

immunity. And at that time, you're. right, we didn't know everything and. there were some risks to the orderlys. and nurses. So when they had to rotate. patients that were on the ventilator, I. would go in and help them. So one less. person had to go in the room because I. had immunity. And everybody acknowledged. that I did in my local hospital. They. didn't ask, there was no vaccine at the. time anyway. And so but they all. acknowledged that, oh, this is great. He's coming in. He has immunity and he. can help take the place of someone else. who's having to to risk being in the. room when we move patients around.

One of my favorite scenes was uh there. was a musical performance where there. was a bunch of flutists and they had. masks on with a whole cutout so they. could play their flute through the mask. I was like this is wild. I mean. >> well yeah explain to me the science of. that I can eat my peanuts for 20 minutes. on the plane and what my favorite is the. some of the flight attendants were. great. Some of them would actually come. up to me and pass messages. I would get. little folded up message. Thank you for. what you're doing. Thank you for. challenging Fouchy. But then some of. them were Karen's and it brings out the.

worst in you. A little bit of power can. bring out the worst in people. And some. of them were, you know, sir, you're not. eating your peanuts faster. Eat your. peanuts faster. You need to put your. mask on in between. >> peanuts on planes anymore. You're dating. yourself. >> No, they they still do have peanuts. >> But are peanuts they don't they keep. them off planes because if people have. severe peanut allergies, >> they do. And uh that's a that's a whole. another story. And have you have you. ever had Marty McCary on? >> I have not, but I'm trying to. >> Yeah. He wrote a book. He wrote a book. called Blind Spots. And in it, he writes. about the peanut allergy, right? And you.

know how you prevent the peanut allergy? >> Give kids peanut butter. Yeah. And now. the recommendation even from the. American Pediatric Association who are. terrible. They're the worst people in. the world on vaccine mythology and. religiosity. But they finally came. around. They said, "Don't get peanut. butter for like a decade. We got all. these allergies." But now they finally, I think, changed their official position. and I think at 3 months you're supposed. to start introducing peanut butter to. your kid. >> Why do you think they're the worst when. you said they're the worst on that?

>> Um, it's a blind notion and it isn't based. on risk benefit an analysis or anything. It's this devotion that you're a good. person, but you're also a smart person. if you believe. But it's in all. vaccines. And they made the mistake. because sometimes they they had the. first rotovirus vaccine 15 years ago. they gave they'd take it off the market. because six months later they they. learned that something called. intoception where the intestines go. inside each other which can be a real. problem for a child was happening more.

often with a vaccine they had to pull. the vaccine but vaccines are like. anything else it's like you and I would. sit down and we'd talk about your drugs. and I talk about the side effects of. each one what your disease is and what. we can do like I'm not completely like. for example with the COVID vaccine I. don't think children should take it. because I think the risk of the heart. inflam ation is greater than the chance. of the disease. Early on, they said for. old people and overweight people that. reduced hospitalization and death. But. I've been talking to the CDC because I.

want to know is that still true. So, let's do a new study. The virus has. progressively gotten less dangerous. The. community's progressively gotten more. immunity. So, what was true in 2020 may. no longer be true. I want to know if. you're over 65 and I give a thousand. people the vaccine, the brand new one, whatever it is, and I give a thousand. people no vaccine, is a reduction in. hospitalization and death because this. isn't 2020 anymore. >> Well, not only that, I mean, when was. the last time you heard of someone dying. or being hospitalized? >> That's what I mean. It's not happening.

It's not happening. And so, >> but it's also because the strains, the. variants of. >> the variants have become less, they've. become less dangerous. And we've also. increased our amount of immunity. And. so, we should study this again. Why? Because big farmer is just making a. gazillion dollars off of still scaring. everybody over 65. And if it still. works, I I'm I'll come on your show and. say, "Take it if you're over 65." But I. don't know if it works. And I doubt that. it works because I don't hear of anybody. dying from COVID anymore.

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are the other options that you could. have once you actually get sick. >> Like what can you do? IV vitamins are. fantastic. There's a lot of different. things that people can do that are never. recommended and it's strange. And really. the two things that were controversial. at least among a lot of things but. ivormectin and hydroxychloricquin people. will ask me about it and I'll say I. don't know the government refused to. study it and so it's very difficult. because if you took in let's say 2020. the virus was dangerous and let's say. you took 5,000 people under the age of.

50 and you gave them ivormectin and you. did 5,000 people and you gave them. nothing almost nobody died in either. category so it was hard to prove but I. don't think Ivormectin was was harmful I. don't think hydroxy hydroxychloricquin. was harmful either, but they wouldn't. study it and you need a big study. So to. figure out since the death rate was so. low for healthy people, you might need. 10,000 people in each arm of the study. to figure out what works and weren't. didn't work. There were some. international studies showing ivormectin. worked and hydroxychloricquin. There.

weren't many here, but Fouchy shut them. all down. You know, they started a study. and then he shut it down. >> How does one guy get that kind of power? He was there forever. You know, he was. there about as long as J I wrote I wrote. an op-ed comparing him to Jar Hoover. You know, Hoover was like there for 70. years. Abused the civil liberties of. people protesting for civil rights. He. abused uh the liberty and p the privacy. of people protesting the Vietnam War.

And so Hoover was a terrible person with. his longevity. I think Fouchy ranks. right up there with his disregard for. people's privacy. But even the stuff. about the masks, do you know that we. studied pandemics for a decade? Bill. Gates has been given gazillions of. dollars that he's gotten the government. to spend money. And when we studied. pandemics all the way up until 2020, there was never a recommendation for. masks among the public. >> He recommended against Fouchy. recommended against masks in a very. public interview that was a video where.

he was talking about, you know, it's not. going to help you and you worse maybe. you'll mess with your face and. >> Yeah. Well, the uh the good one was the. it was that Birdwell woman. She was in. the administration and she writes him a. letter in January. She says, "I have to. go to a conference. Should I wear a. mask?" And he writes back to her, "Uh, no. We've we've done all the studies and. there's no evidence that for a. respiratory virus it works." And it. turns out almost all the masks, the. cloth masks, you know, you've heard all. this, the pores were bigger than the. virus. The virus goes through them. the. surgical mask a little better, but if.

you have these big gaps on either side, you think the virus isn't going around. the mask and it probably goes through. that mask. Also, the N95 mask, if you're. a doctor or a nurse and you're going in. and out of a room and you wash your. hands and throw away the mask, there. probably is some value. So, in the in. the hospital, they recommended this. But. one of the reasons Anthony Fouchy was. such a danger is what he recommended was. actually dangerous. So, he's wearing a. Washington Nationals cloth mask to show. people that or he's wearing a Black.

Lives Matter mask to show people he. cares. But if that's the advice and you're 75. years old and your wife has COVID and. you're going in her room to take her. food and you wear a cloth mask, you are. risking getting COVID and dying. yourself. He didn't tell. He gave us the. wrong advice and then people thought. they were safe with the cloth mask so. they're actually doing something they. shouldn't do or they're you know 85. years old and they're going to church. but they're wearing a cloth mask. Well. know that you probably shouldn't go to. church. Frankly, you shouldn't be told. you can't go to church but actually the.

advice early on to avoid crowds and stay. home if you were older or vulnerable. But the kids should have just gone to. school and tried to stay away from, you. know, people. But eventually it happened. anyway. It went everywhere. There was no. stopping this virus. >> Well, there's never been a respiratory. virus. It's stopped with a vaccine. anyway, right? >> No, the the flu vaccine doesn't really. stop with it either. And I'm trying to. get more statistics on the on the flu. vaccine as well to see if it's accurate.

because I think they lie to us every. year about, you know, they say, "Oh, well, it was a, you know, it wasn't this. it wasn't even the same category or. type, but you're getting some crossover. effect." I think most of the time that. is um being inflated. What they're what. they're telling you is not actually. true. And I'm trying to get them at the. CDC to study all of this again because. they have the power and the numbers to. look at large numbers and let's be. objective and tell people, you know, what is the odds next year the flu. vaccine will work for you. And we used. to say, well, it may not work, but if.

you're at risk, go ahead and take it. So, it used to be over 50 or over 65. Now, they want everybody to take the flu. vaccine. And it probably is probably. better unless your child has an immuno. deficiency disease to go ahead and get. these and develop immunity over time. >> And what do you think is going on? Like. why are they recommending this? Is this. purely a profit thing? >> Um I think if they were here they would. argue that it's it's it's science and it. isn't for profit. But they argue.

vigorously against revealing if they're. receiving money from big pharma. So what. I ask is if you're on the vaccine. committee and you're going to recommend. that every child get a COVID vaccine, shouldn't you have to release whether. you get royalties, you know, from big. pharma? And Anthony Fouchy in committee. said, "We don't have to do it. The law, and he quoted the law, says we don't. have to do it." So for two, three, four. years now, I'm still trying to get this. passed. I've gotten all the Republicans. to agree to it, and I've gotten all the. Democrats, but two or three. And I'm.

still trying to get it passed. unanimously. But it would say if you're. a government scientist and you get. royalties from Fizer or from one of the. big companies, you have to actually uh. list it on a form and really you should. be then recused from voting. >> Yeah. Well, also why why are doctors. allowed to be financially incentivized? >> Yeah. That that should be that should be. considered to be unethical or. inappropriate. We did change some of the. things with pharma and gifts to doctors. about 10 years ago. It is better than it. used to be as far as gifts to doctors.

except for then they don't call this a. gift. I think this should be under the. gift ban. You should not be getting paid. to use certain uh choose certain things. because I I think it's really I think. it's actually malpractice to give. children the COVID vaccine. >> Are you aware of uh Mary Tally Bowden? >> Yep. >> Yeah. You know her story? >> Not a lot. I've met her before. I think. >> she told me that if you know she has a. small practice that's in like a strip. mall I believe outside of Houston. She. said that in her small practice if she.

had vaccinated everyone she would have. been compensated $1.5 million. >> It's it's a significant amount of money. Yeah. And that people have listening. >> Yeah. No, it's insane. And it's the it's. it's the one sort of exception to we. have all these things preventing. kickbacks to doctors except for vaccines. and that's somehow exempt. Um so yeah. Now, we've looked at whether legislation. could fix this, and I don't think we. found a good answer, but I have. definitely looked to see if there's a. way Congress could try to fix this. >> What's amazing to me is how many people.

in the general public are not skeptical. How many people in the general public. will hear this kind of conversation and. immediately their hackles get up and. they want to argue against this vaccines. save more? Vaccines are so important. They get and there's they have no. information. They have they've done no. research. They've never looked at it. objectively. They don't understand the. whole history of compensation and and. what happened with the the immunity. >> So in the in the book I tell the story. of George Washington. One to let people.

know I'm not against and the smallox. vaccine was amazing. And in George. Washington's day it was actually live. So that what you did is if you'd had. small pox and you were doing pretty well. and you survived and you didn't have a. bad case, you had a minor case, you had. four or five pox, not a lot as you were. recovering that open a scab, take pus. from your arm, stab somebody else's arm, and take the pus from your infection and. stick it into someone else. That's a. live vaccine. That's that's crazy. But.

and they did have some people die from. it. But the death rate from smallox is. one out of three. And when it would show. up in Boston, you'd have like 20,000. people die and the whole town would get. it. It was terrible. And so people. actually chose, but people weren't being. forced to do it. But the George. Washington case is very instructive. Martha wants to come visit him at the. camps at the war camps. And there were. more deaths in the Revolutionary War. from disease than there were from. bullets. He says, "You can't come until. you're vaccinated for smallpox." It. wasn't vaccinated. It was called. inoculated because you're getting stuck. with a disease, not a vaccine. And uh.

but people say, "Well, I guess. Washington took it too if he believed so. much in this." Well, like no, because. he'd already had smallox. He got smallox. when he was 15 in Barbados. They. understood immunity. We have understood. immunity for thousands of years. And yet. it just went out the window with Anthony. Vouchi saying, "Well, we just don't. know. We just won't. We just don't. know." We do know. We don't always know. how perfect it's going to be, but we do. know that nobody got CO the second time. around and had a worst case the second. time around. Well, one thing we do know.

is that when Biden left office, he was. granted this very bizarre pardon where. he got a pardon that goes back to 2014. for crimes he was never accused of, >> never convicted. I mean, is that it's. got to be one of the first times that. anybody's ever been pardoned. >> And I think it should be challenged. And. so we have um under the Biden. administration, I sent criminal. referrals for Anthony Fouchy to Meritt. Garland um twice and I sent them. evidence that he had lied to Congress,

which was a felony. They just ignored. me. I've been working with Bobby Kennedy. and he's been very helpful on this. I. have good relationship with him. He's. given us a lot of information and we've. looked at the communications and in. Anthony Fouch's communications, we now. have evidence that he was telling people. like Francis Collins, read this and. destroy it. Well, you can't do that. The. executive branch when they communicate, they're required to keep their. communications and they're required to. do it on government devices. So, we have. this evidence and I've summarized it. again in a criminal referral to uh.

Trump's attorney general and I still. haven't gotten action, but there's a. couple reasons we should do it. one that. he shouldn't get away with lying. He. shouldn't get away with destroying. records. But two, we should check the. pardon. Is it an autopin pardon valid? And is a pardon a retrospective pardon. back 10 years that doesn't mention a. crime? Can you can you give people a. pardon for everything they did in. 10-year period? I can't imagine. And I. think the court might narrow that, but. it doesn't happen unless the the Trump.

Justice Department will do something. And I've I've been sending them. referrals and I can't get them to do. anything. Um, I can't guarantee they'll. win. They might lose, but they ought to. go to court. Take this, take it to. court. >> When you were having that conversation. with him about gain of function. research, which clearly gain of function. research was being done at the Wuhan. lab, >> right? >> What and he was just standing in front. saying that under the definition of gain. of function research that that does not. qualify.

>> But. >> what was that like? >> We all knew he was lying and he was. parsing words. he was uh trying to have. a semantics type of argument. But one of. the reasons we know he's lying and one. of the things that I've presented as. evidence is there was a group uh text. chain on February 1st of 2020. So you. have all these viologists who are saying. privately it came from the lab and. publicly it didn't. You have them all. communicating. But one of the things. Anthony Fauci says about the Wuhan lab. is he says, "We know it's we know it's.

um it's it's dangerous and possible. because we know they're doing gain of. function research. So we're funding. them." He would never admit we're. funding them because we were funding eco. health, this intermediary. So he said, "Oh, we're not funding them." Well, we're funding them through eco health. It's not gain of function except for. then he says the experiments they're. doing are gain of function. And so I. think everything about it was dishonest. He got away with it because people in. the scientific community still to this. day defend him and people on the left.

made it a partisan. I don't know why. this is a Republican Democrat issue, but. all of the main networks still defend. him. You know, he was given a million. dollar prize. Some nonprofit uh gave him. a million-dollar prize. A How's a. bureaucrat to accept a a million dollar. prize while they're working for the. government? >> You tell me. you work for. [clears throat] the government. [laughter]. Then when he leaves the government, he. gets 24/7 limo service and security. He's got people in front of his home. stopping traffic like you do for a.

president getting in the car, which I'm. okay for former presidents, but that's. about it. You know, Anthony Fouchy. should have never got this. I will say. that Trump ended it, you know, and. everybody said, "Oh, he'll be he'll be. killed." And it's like, you know, I. guarantee a lot of us have more threats. than Anthony Fouchy has. And none of us. have a limo picking us up every day. >> Well, I'm sure he has threats. >> Um, >> I'm sure Anthony Fouch [clears throat]. has threats and I think he probably, you. know, should be concerned, >> but so yeah, but.

>> based on what everybody knows, >> right? But the government doesn't, you. know, you're a famous person. Government. doesn't pay for your limousine, right? >> He shouldn't have a limousine paid for. by the government with 247. >> No, no, I agree. I mean, it's also, how. much money did he make? >> Do we know? We know he got the. million-dollar prize. We know he made. more than the president towards the end. He was making $450,000 a year. But his. wife, if he ever had an ethical problem, you know, he went to his wife. His wife. was charge of uh bioeththics for the. NIH. So if there was a question of.

whether or not his royalties were a. conflict, he would ask his wife to find. out if he was acting unethically. She. made about 250. So they're really making. a combined 700, which I don't I'm not. against money. You work hard, people pay. you money, I'm all for it, but I am. against the government paying. bureaucrats that kind of money. And so, and he really there there should be term. limits for people in those positions. You shouldn't be there for 40 years. So, he appointed all the people beneath him. and he stacked the deck. And you know, I.

asked the question and this was an email. from Francis Collins to Anthony Fouchy. He says, "Take them down." talking about. Jay Badacharia the head of the NIH now. talking about Martin Caldorf and then an. epidemiologist from Oxford take them. down and so when I have scientists come. before my committee I'll ask them first. question have you ever or would you ever. send another scientist a note saying to. take down a fellow scientist you.

disagreed with my goodness what kind. that sounds like the mafia or something. doesn't sound like someone who's. supposed to be above the fray objective. scientist. >> Were there any other avenues for revenue. for him because of the creation of the. vaccine or any other medications? >> Um that. >> I don't think with this with the current. one we we don't know um all of his. royalties. He would say, "Oh, I got $25. or something." That's not it might have. been true for a year, but there are.

years in the past that he was getting. more. the um I think open the books or. the open secrets that group has gone. through and through freedom of. information has gotten information that. um like 1,500 doctors got 1.5 billion or. 1500 scientists got 1.5 billion in. royalty. So it's not an insignificant. amount of money. It's a lot of. scientists. And once again, I'm not even. sure I'm for forbidding it. I just want.

to know if any of them are on a. committee voting for the drug that they. got money from that particular drug. company. >> The woman that was appointed for the NIH. under Biden and never got approved. >> Um, you know, she may well be an ethical. person, but I think she done research. grants of $231 million from Fizer and it. was listed. It doesn't mean she's a. dishonest person, but I wonder how she. could be objective with Fizer if through. her career and all that money didn't go. to her. It was grants that she oversaw.

and some of the money went to her. That. doesn't mean it's illegal or unethical, but I think it's hard for her to judge. objectively a company that has been the. main financer of her entire career. >> Well, it certainly incentivizes her to. be more favorable towards them. Clearly, like you follow human nature. I mean, it. just makes sense. >> Now, Bobby Kennedy has put, you know, and the left-wing people hate all the. people he's put on there. I think he's. doing a good job of getting the people. out who were so provaccine that it was a.

religion for them. And I think they have. better people. And I've noticed as they. go around the room, I don't know if. you've seen this, when they vote, they. start by saying before they vote, I have. no conflicts of interest. They are. verbally announcing I have no conflicts. of interest, which is a big improvement. But I really want to see all the. scientists, who they get it from, how. much, and then let you know part of. oversight's not just Congress, it's the. public. It's it's people who analyze. these issues looking in and seeing how. much they made and what do they oversee.

Is there a conflict of interest? >> What is like what is the tone like in. the government. uh now in comparison to when the. pandemic was going on? >> Um I'd say it's a calmer tone. There was. hysteria that sort of ruled the day. And. I think that, you know, and this was. sort of the problem and how Anthony. Fouchy became so prominent. You know, there was, you know, the president was. outsp speaking and the president speaks. off the cuff and doesn't always say.

things that are always. exactly accurate, right? >> And so as he was saying stuff, many of. these uh sort of establishment senators. were saying, "We need somebody else. We. need a scientist at those press. conferences." So it was actually many of. my colleagues who pushed Anthony Fauci, pushed them through Pence and pushed. them through the president to accept. him. And one of the things that's still. inexplicable to this day is that as. Anthony Fouchy leaves government, President Trump gives him a gold medal, a presidential medal of honor, you know,

as he leaves, which, you know, knowing. what we know, I think is um should have. never happened. >> Yeah. um the people that were so vehemently. opposed to your position and the people. that were so pro- vaccine and prom like. a lot of them are still in the. government. >> Yeah. And a lot of them are still in the. in the news media too. I was called all. kinds of names by people. >> and it turns out that almost everything. I was complaining about turns out in. retrospect I was right about most of.

them. the mask really most of them. didn't work and even the ones that work. a lot of people don't realize this an. N95 mask works to a certain degree but. once you've touched it you've. contaminated it and also after you've. worn it for four hours the moisture from. your breath uh gets rid of the. electrostatic charge and it doesn't. really work very well so the doctors. don't reuse them they might use them a. couple times really getting in your own. bacteria. >> yeah the doctors throw them away and. wash their hands after every if you can. do that there's maybe some value or.

someone's sick in your house. But for. the general public, riding in a car, particularly when you ride by yourself. in a car and N95 masks does not help. you. I hate to tell the Democrats. >> I like when they do it. Yeah. >> I [snorts] think it's important. It's. important when people drive with a mask. on because it lets me know who's out of. their [ __ ] mind. >> But it also you don't have to ask them. what party to register. It's it's. automatic. >> Yeah. I said it was a Democrat's MAGA. hat. >> Yeah. If you're if you're hiking the. Appalent Trail and you see someone out. by themselves and they have an N95 mask. on, um,

>> you can probably guess their party. registration. >> 100%. Yeah, it was a strange time to go. through. Um, it's interesting. Most of. the people that were at CNN are gone. now, except Brian Stelter. They got rid. of them and then that's how bad the. talent is out there. They had to bring. him back. >> Well, yeah. One of them called me oblo. bloviating ass and I haven't been back. on since then about four years ago and. said I was so awful to Anthony Fouchy. and that everything I said was dangerous. and I was endangering lives but I was.

right about the masks. I was right about. natural immunity but I was also right. about this six feet of distance. It's. actually the opposite of what they told. you. So, let's say you were 80 years old. and you and I were coming together in. March of 2020 and well, let's say even. worse. We're going to go to a choir. practice, but we're going to spread out. six feet apart. Is that safe for an 85. year old to go? No. They should be. staying at home. That's the best advice. for them. Stay at home in March of 2020. because guess what? The virus goes 30.

feet, 40 feet. You know, if you're in. this room, it's just made up. >> Yeah. It was made up, but it was made up. in the wrong direction. So what he did. is encourage people to stay six feet. apart from people, go to a crowded room, go to choir practice, and just stay away. from people. But if you're at risk, you. shouldn't be a choir practice. Not by. law, but by advice. So he actually gave. you unsafe advice on the masks. Cloth. masks don't work. So he's giving you. unsafe advice to go help and feed your. wife or your husband with a cloth mask. on. Natural immunity does work. And he.

told you it doesn't work. It was the. opposite of everything he told you. But. he also never got, and I kept saying. this in the hearings, he needed. humility. Humility to know that there's. a possibility he's wrong in what he's. saying. And it should be advice. And. this is what they don't get about. public. If if I were the public health. doctor and a new pandemic came up, I. should give advice, not mandates. Advice. based on the best things we know. And. other doctors should give advice because. there might be other doctors that.

disagree with me on it. So you can. choose. That's it's sort of the idea of. getting a second opinion. You go to your. doctor and you think something's not. quite right and he or she wants to. operate on my leg and maybe I want to. wait another three weeks, see if my leg. feels better in three weeks. You get. another opinion or you go home and wait. 3 weeks and see if you get better. >> What when you're an opthalmologist, right? >> Right. uh when you're one of the rare. people that's in the government that. does have a background in medicine and.

at least in medical training and you're. experiencing all this illogical [ __ ]. like what is what is that like for you? Did you do you did you try to educate. your. >> you you you try but most of them aren't. willing to listen and you wonder now if. they've even gotten it. Um, but my. favorite is sort of the response you get. because the internet is full of trolls. And so one of the favorite insults, if. you'll read insults of me, oh, you know, he's just a failed dental assistant. [laughter] It's like, well, not quite,

but um, >> why how' they come up with that one? >> I don't know. I don't know. They somehow. think I'm a dentist or an optometrist. and I fit glasses or something. No, none. of that's really true. But um, the people, it takes a long time for. people. I think slowly some of them like. I think half the Democrats actually. think it may have come from the lab now. They're not real outspoken about it, >> but. >> only half. >> maybe the elected one. Yeah, this is. maybe. >> the other half still believe in a.

natural spillover. >> Three years into this, the doctor of the. Senate was still recommending there are. 16 year olds that are pages, they're 15, 16 years old that they get three. vaccines. And I absolutely steadfastly think that. that's malpractice and a risk to them. So I fought it and I would come to the. floor and this is weird. No one's ever. done this. I would ask on the floor of. the Senate for unanimous consent to pass. a rule of the Senate that they don't. they can they can opt out of this. program. You know they can listen,

write, check something and opt out. because it turns out that the. myocarditis. increases in prevalence the more you. take. So if you take one COVID vaccine, it's less likely you get myocarditis. If. you take a second one, it's a little. more likely a third one. So it's the. opposite of what you should be telling. children. And the death rate for a. healthy 16-year-old really is. essentially zero. I mean, it is so close. to zero. Somebody might be able to find. a healthy year old that died at 16. Almost everybody that was on CNN, not to. keep mentioning CNN, but they would put.

these people on there and they would. hide the fact that they had terminal. cancer. And it is sad that a child dies. anytime, but they were dying from their. cancer and they just happened to have. COVID, you know, and it was dishonest. because they were trying to scare. regular people. Don't send your kid to. school. The teachers union is right. We. should never go back to school. We need. another year out, which was just crazy. And damaged. >> It's also there's a giant incentive that. in this country and in New Zealand, they're the only two countries in the. world where they allow pharmaceutical.

drug companies to advertise. >> Yeah. And it's it's a problem. I very. rarely watch regular television, but. every now and then I'll just go, "What. are these [ __ ] crazy people up to?". And I'll watch MSNBC or CNN. number of drug ads is staggering. And. the weirdness in those ads, the calm. tone of their voice as they list off. these horrific side effects. Well, and. the thing that's hard to imagine is. there's sometimes for a disease that.

like 5,000 people in the country have a. disease that as a physician, even though. I know the names of most of the. diseases, I'll be kind of uncertain now. that I don't remember seeing anybody. ever with that disease and yet it's. being advertised on MSNBC. And then the. question is, do you think that affects. what the the newscasters are saying on. the news? And it does. That's why. they're they're so allin with this. Um, but you're right. It's not. They're not. trying to use those ads to sell those. drugs. They're using the money by. putting those ads up to make sure that.

those. >> pundits don't talk badly about the. pharmaceutical drug company. >> It's probably more about shaping the. news than it is getting sales. >> Well, the the proof is in the pudding. There have absolutely been horrific side. effects of a bunch of different pharm. pharmaceutical drugs. You don't hear a. peep about any of that stuff on CNN. And. you wonder who's buying a drug when they. say, "Well, you could die. You could. become paralyzed. You could have a. stroke. You could have a blood clot, >> explosive, bloody diarrhea, [laughter]. you know, loss all your memory, suicidal.

ideiation. It's just they just list them. off and they list them off like this. Consult your doctor. >> They're protecting you so you can take. ambient, but god forbid you take a a. hemp gummy, they will put your ass in. jail if you take a hemp gummy. And. they've just recently outlawed all the. hemp stuff. And I've been fighting this. for the last two months, but all the. hemp products, I know Texas actually has. a lot. They're all going to be banned. within one year now. >> Now, how did that get passed? >> Mitch McConnell. >> How is that guy still around when he.

just freezes up every now and again? He. locks up like Windows 95. [laughter]. >> He is uh very very powerful and a lot of. people owe him. you know, he raised. money for decades, hundreds of millions. of dollars, passed it out to the lesserk. known senators, and helped them get. elected when they would get challenges. And so then they all owe him. And so I. forced an amendment. And it's funny, then the people on the internet go, "Why. are you doing this? The government shut. down. Why are you gumming up the works. with a vote on on hemp?" Because they. stuck it on the bill to reopen the.

government. It's not my choice to talk. about hemp at that time. That was my. only choice. And so I brought forward an. amendment. I got like 20some votes. 70. of them voted, but they voted to set the. limit and to change the the amount of. THC in the plant. So, all the plants are. illegal now. All the seeds are illegal. There's a real industry of farmers who. grow this. Um, and the thing is, who who. are we to tell somebody who can't sleep. at night that an ambience better for. them than than taking a hemp gummy to go. to sleep at night? or a veteran who.

could take percoet or some kind of. psychotropic drug or who has anxiety or. post-traumatic stress and we're going to. tell them they can't take a he company. I I think it's uh insane and very much. uh you know this presumption that we. know what's best for everyone. >> Is this the alcohol lobby? Like what. what is the motivation? >> There was a little bit of the alcohol. lobby and the cannabis lobby. The. cannabis people hate the hemp people. >> The cannabis people hate the hemp. people. Well, it's complicated. The.

cannabis industry developed state by. state, and you really can't make a. marijuana product in Colorado and sell. it in Kentucky. It can't go across state. lines. The hemp, because it was. legalized nationally, um they they were selling it across. state lines. So, we have big uh. companies now that sell the hemp. gummies. You can order them through the. mail across state lines until this law. came about. And McConnell always felt it. was an unintended consequence and some. of the growth might have been but I. don't think it was there were some bad. products out there and all of us and.

including the hemp industry said all. right let's let's regulate this let's. not have 100 mgram gummies the more. traditional is sort of like five. milligrams that's in a drink or in a. gummy that people will take. >> reasonable. >> yeah and and and I think I haven't taken. it I'm for the freedom to take it but I. just I I sleep pretty good but uh so. it's not really something I can attest. to exactly how it works, but people who. do take it to me that have one of the. drinks say it might be like drinking a.

beer or maybe not even drinking a beer. when you drink one of these uh THC. drinks. So, the cannabis businesses in. the states where it's legal don't want. it legal nationally because then it. would interfere with their business. because you'd be able to order it. through the mail. >> Well, they'd probably accept it if we'd. legalized cannabis nationally and then. they would compete with hemp. What was. going on is we haven't legalized. cannabis nationally. We've legalized it. state by state, >> but I don't think even if your state has. legal adult use and another one does, I.

don't think you can transfer it across. the state law. >> You're saying hemp, but you really mean. THC. >> Uh, that's for marijuana. >> CBD and THC, correct? >> Yeah, CBD has a little bit of THC in it. and so do the hemp gummies have some THC. in it. And then the drinks do. It's. about 5 milligrams in a lot of the. different do. They're different doses, but that's. >> And so all of those are going to be. illegal. >> Yeah. The the the McConnell language. says you can't have more than 0.4. milligrams, which is such a low number. that I don't think it'll have any.

effect. I mean, frankly, the THC is the. effect, you know, and so if you make the. THC number so small, uh I don't think. people will take them. Um the CBD oil, people might still take some of that, but I assume if there the effect that. people are getting from the CBD oil, if. they rub it on has to be the THC. >> No. No, CBD itself with no THC has a. beneficial effect. There's there's CBD. balm that you can use for like. arthritis. >> That may still be legal. The plant. though, the D, the definition of the.

plant that the CBD oil comes from. So, they're going to have to rehybridize all. these plants. What I was going to say. was um my mom or my not my mom rather, my wife's mom um uses uh CBD with THC. and she's found that that's more. effective for arthritis and aches and. pains than CBD without it. She's done. both and she says the CBD with with THC. is more effective. >> And there are some people and once again. I'm not here to tell you to take it or. not take it. I'm tell I'm for the.

freedom for people to make their own. decision. There's some people with. children who have seizures who take. medications and the kid still has a. hundred seizures a day, which isn't good. for your brain and for the child. And. that some of them have added some CBD. drops they give to the child of CBD oil. with the THC, right? And they think it. slows the seizures down some. >> Yeah. I have a friend whose child has. severe autism and sometimes has seizures. and the only thing that stops the. seizures is uh CBD with THC. >> And the best way to think about it is is.

I'll never forget this. This was in I. think 2007 when Romney was running for. president. My dad was in fact I know. somebody who was a supporter of my dad. in 2007. >> But anyway, they go up to Romney and. it's a person in a wheelchair with MS. And they said, "Would do are you in. favor of making it illegal? I take. marijuana at night to sleep. Are you in. favor of making that illegal for me to. take it? I have MS. Would you would you. be for making it illegal?" Romney looked. right at him and said, "I sure would.".

And it's like, what kind of person says. that? What kind of person is so. presumptuous of their moral position. that they're going to tell you it's. immoral to take that, but fine to take. some, you know, anti-csychotic drug or. some kind of narcotic that the pharmacy. pharmaceutical companies sell, but we're. not going to let you use marijuana? Well, it's ignorance. You know, it's. people that have never consumed it and. have these preconceived notions of what. it actually does versus what it does. I. mean, you'd be surprised at how many, you know, little old ladies are taking.

CBD with THC in it for, you know, to. help with their aches and pains and help. them sick. >> My joke when I tell people who's opposed. to this, like McConnell, you know, who's. older than um. >> older than dirt, is that they all. watched Reefer Madness in 1937. [laughter] at the matinea and they'll. never forget what happens if you get. that Reefer Madness. and uh some of them. probably were alive in 1937 could have. actually seen the movie. But uh that's.

it. It's an irrational sort of fear. But. on the other side of this, we're on a. program that a lot of people will hear. I don't want people at home thinking I. want everybody and every 15year-old out. there smoking marijuana after school. I. think there are some some side effects. to smoking marijuana all the time, particularly for the brain. And I'm not. here to encouraging drinking alcohol. Same thing. >> I'm for personal choice for adults. And. the the problem with the whole reef for. madness thing, I'm glad you brought that. up. Do you know the whole story behind. it? >> No. >> William Randph Hurst. William Randph.

Hurst was responsible for this whole. terrifying craze of of people thinking. that marijuana was driving people nuts. and jumping out of buildings. In 193. something, I forget the year. They they. came up with a new product called the. Decorticator. And it was in Popular. Science magazine, hemp, the new. billiondoll crop. Because they had this. new machine that allowed them to. effectively process hemp fiber. William. Randph Hurst owned Hurst Publications, but he also owned paper mills. Hemp was.

a far more effective and far more uh. durable form of paper. He was going to. compete with hemp. And he had forests. that he was using for his paper where. they were, you know, for paper mills. >> And hemp was going to replace all that. It was a competitor. So they were they. were arguing against it as a commodity. Marijuana was never a name for cannabis. marijuana was a name for a wild Mexican. tobacco. And so they started saying in. his newspapers, they started printing.

these fake stories about how blacks and. Mexicans were taking this new drug and. raping white women. And that's where. Reefer Banditis came from. And they call. this new drug marijuana. This episode is. brought to you by Paleo Valley, 100%. grass-fed beef sticks. I live a super. busy lifestyle. I'm always running from. one thing to the next and Paleo Valley. is the perfect onthe-go snack. These. beef sticks are legit. No junk, no. garbage ingredients, just pure clean. protein fermented the old school way.

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and use the code roan. I know this is. going to be shocking to you, but that's. the story of government. >> Yeah. Most things that come out in. government, if you look beneath the. surface, they all have pretty names. They have acronyms say patriotism, the. Patriot Act, how you must be. anti-patriotic if you're not for the. Patriot Act. But most of the things they. say it's the opposite or someone has put. something forward that really is about. like let's say it's a banking. regulation. You say this is going to. protect the poor people. But it turns. out the banking regulation is easier.

paid for and absorbed by big banks. And. so what happens to your small local. bank? You say how come all the small. banks get gobbled up by big banks? It's. because you put regulations on that who. favored the big banks favor the. regulations because it puts the small. bank out of business. They get absorbed. by the big bank and then the new banks. trying to come in can't afford the. compliance cost. Um right now one of the. extraordinary things we're doing with. with banks and I don't think many people. know this. The Federal Reserve is now. paying interest to big banks on keeping.

reserves at the Federal Reserve. There's. $3 trillion there. Last year, the big. banks, primarily the big banks in New. York, got $187 billion in interest. Previously, that interest would go back. to the Treasury to offset the debt. That's about 10% of our debt. So, our. debt is 10% worse because we're now. paying and we never did this. Before. 2010, we never paid interest on on. reserves. And what it means to pay. interest on reserves is that it's an. incentive for the Fed just to leave it. there. Why loan it to you if you're.

expanding a business when I can just. leave it here and get 4%. It also keeps. interest rates from going down because. if the Fed pays the big bank 4%, are. they going to loan it to you for three. and a half when it can just sit at the. Fed and gain four? So, it's it's kind. of, you know, President Trump always. wants what he wants. And sometimes he. wants good things, but, you know, may. not go about it the best way. He wants. interest rates to be lower. I think most. people do. But one way to make interest. lower is tell the Fed they can't pay. interest to these big banks. Have you. ever had a conversation with him about.

this? >> I've been trying for like three months. to get out a conversation with Bessant. and I held up one of their uh with the. secretary of treasur. I held up one of. their appointees last week, which is one. of the things you do to get the. attention of the people you want to talk. to. And they've agreed to meet with me, but we're already, you know, halfway. into January. But I'm trying to get a. meeting with Bent to talk to him about. this idea of paying interest because. they said, "Oh, it'll only take $30. billion to set up the system." Then it. was a trillion. Now it's three trillion. And I think it just keeps growing and.

growing, but that money really isn't. being productive. And it's a gift to. these big banks. >> When it comes to this uh this THC thing, what can be done? >> Trump's been good on some things. You. know, the whole idea of changing it from. schedule one to schedule three is an. improvement. It's still illegal without. a prescription, but a lot of the. research with marijuana didn't happen. because schedule one's just almost. impossible. you got to have like safes. and guards and everything to deal with.

with a schedule one drug. And so very. little research occurred on marijuana. over time. And um so lowering the. schedule is a good idea. Um state by. state has kind of worked in the sense. that it's allowed people to see what. it's like and get used to it. Um but. some of the states have have backtracked. and some are worried that they went too. far. Um, [snorts]. it's harder to determine, I think, acute. intoxication if someone's driving under.

the influence to do a test. I I would. guess the technology should be out. there, but I don't know that it's widely. available. >> Maybe it would have to be a blood test, right? I I don't know if you're if. you've consumed an edible, you're not. going to be able to get something with a. breathalyzer. >> I don't I don't know that for certain. Your your breath is amazing what it. actually has in it. So, I I don't know. the answer to that. If. testing is not. >> Yeah. Which reminds me, there's a guy in. California I've met just you meet. extraordinary people. He's actually.

studying uh contents of what you exhale. to look for cancer markers. >> So, I mean, they're really minute, but. he's going to try to diagnose things. like, you know, you'll hear of a friend, you know, is like 45 years old, has. pancreatic cancer, or actually we have a. former senator right now, Ben Sass, who. says he has stage four pancreatic. cancer. And the reason it it spreads. before you know you have it, but he's. trying to get a and he has a test that. measures markers just from what you. exhale to try to pick up on cancers.

before they be detected. >> So there's a possibility that they come. up with some sort of a detection method. to find out if you're intoxicated. >> I think probably and I I don't know the. technology that well. >> Uh but it's either way just for. responsible use for adults. It just. doesn't make any sense that they would. change it from what it is now and make. it more restrictive, >> right? I don't think any states have. gone backwards. Most states have gone. forward. We finally in Kentucky, we. don't have adult use, but we have I. think we've just legalized the medical, but the way medical works, it's still.

strictly by state. So, you have to have. physicians who decide to prescribe it, farmers who decide to grow it, and it's. a little bit of a niche industry. And. you know, like most industries in our. country, one state gets really good and. they export it to other states and some. climates are better for growing it, but. um that has been a hindrance to the. marijuana industry. >> Well, it's also you're enabling the. [laughter] cartel to make money off of. it. That's the real problem. Uh I had a. gentleman on my podcast named John. Norris. He was a game warden in.

California and um you know just checking. fishing licenses and making sure that. people are following the laws and u. wound up uh chasing down a dry creek and. uh f trying to find out like had a. farmer diverted the creek like what had. happened here. Well, it turned out there. was an illegal grow operation by the. cartel because when California made. marijuana legal in the state for adult. use, what they did was make it a. misdemeanor to grow it illegally. So,

it's just a misdemeanor. So, the cartel. just started growing it in state parks, forests. >> And so, they would find these heavily. armed cartel operations in the middle of. national parks, national forests. And. you know the his group became like he's. got a great book called Hidden War and. his his organization became essentially. a tactical group. You know they had. Belgian Malamis and bulletproof vests. and they were having shootouts with the.

cartel in the forest. >> because these guys were growing this. stuff and 90% of all the marijuana. that's sold in these states where it's. illegal was being grown in a state where. it's only a misdemeanor to grow it. And. >> so they were growing it in California. and they [clears throat] were using all. sorts of horrific pesticides and. herbicides that are illegal. >> uh everywhere else, but they would use. them. And so you'd get pesticide. poisoning, herbicide poisoning. >> You know, it's crazy. It's like we're.

it's just responsible adult use. We're. curtailing. And the way we're doing this. is by propping up these illegal drug. cartels the same way that during the. alcohol prohibition, they propped up the. mob and the. >> moonshiners. And this is what people. don't understand about prohibition. When. you have prohibition, you get products. that are more dangerous because they're. not openly regulated. You also have more. uh young people using it because if it's. already illegal, what do I care if I'm. selling out of the back of my car? I'm. not going to check your ID. So we to get. adult use and to get rules on those.

things, it's better to actually have it. legal. So with the hemp thing, McConnell, I'm in the same state. So he. goes home and he tells everybody, "Yeah, Ren Paul wants your kids to use hemp.". That's not true because Kentucky passed. a state law that says you have to be 21, regulates the amount. His law is going. to overturn that and there is no federal. law on the age of hemp. So, he's. actually the one that's going to. overturn the law by prohibiting it all. But most of the states have reasonably. looked at this. Now, Texas looked at it. and then Texas was going to ban it and.

then Governor Abbott stepped up and and. vetoed it. But Texas, the legislature. was terrible. uh they were gonna they. were gonna they passed a ban on hemp. here and then Abbottz vetoed it. It's. sort of in limbo now. >> Um so when this this national one when. does this go into effect? >> It's one year from when we passed it and. I think we passed it in uh probably. November. So this coming November u the. entire heist will go bust. This is a$2. billion industry. This is not a small.

industry and there's a lot of jobs. There's a lot of people using it. Like. you say, these aren't reefer madness. people out there committing crimes. It's. your grandmother, your mother. It's. people have difficulty sleeping. It's um. you know, there's still hope and I'm. trying to reverse it. I have several. bills that we're working on going to. introduce in the near future to either. try to extend the deadline andor change. it. I'd like to change it where if your. state has regulated it, the federal. government would um aced to your state.

regulation or um allow your state to. regulate it. >> Well, it's got to be very bizarre being. a rational person working for the. government. Yeah. Um and it I don't the. people up there are of a different sort. Many of them have never worked really. outside of government. So they really. >> Yeah. They they know they know nothing. about writing checks. Yeah. Exactly. >> Telling you how to live your life.

>> And it's kind of when people come up to. me and they say, you know, they're. young, smart kids, kids that have been. interns in my office. I want to run. I. want to be part of government. And I. say, go out and have a career first. Work somewhere. You know, I worked as a. physician for about 20 years before I. ended up running. And really you have to. have a real career because politics one. isn't that great a career and two there. is no guarantee you can be the smartest. person in the world not win. It doesn't. always you have to be in the right right. person right time right place and a. little bit of luck. Yeah. And you know.

it's like how can someone. effectively govern if you haven't. experienced life outside of the. government? It just doesn't seem even. rational. Yeah. that you could be a. person that would be a good. representation of all these hardworking. people if you've never actually had a. job. Just seems weird. >> Yeah. That's why people thought one of. the bushes was out of touch. I think it. was the elder bush when he went to the. grocery store and he didn't know what a. scanner was. He had never seen grocery. scanned because he never been in a. grocery store. That's that's funny. But.

what is it like like being I mean how. it's got to be incredibly frustrating, but it's also got to be bizarre. >> Yeah. And um I'll give you an example. what I think is bizarre. So we've been. uh blowing up these people in boats off. the coast of Venezuela. They're accused. of running drugs, but nobody knows their. names and nobody's putting up any. evidence. When we um had them September. 2nd, two of them were still clinging to.

the wreckage. They're shipwrecked. Um. they blew them up. And so what I think. is bizarre is I hear mostly my. Republican colleagues say, "Well, um, we. shouldn't have to. How do we know. they're not armed?" And it's like, but. there's this thing called presumption of. innocence. They say, "It doesn't apply.". Well, it actually always has applied on. the oceans. We have always we've had. drug interdiction, but we have always. stopped boats and asked to search them. If they flee or shoot at the Coast. Guard, they will get shot and blown up,

but it's usually an escalatory sort of. steps. We know that when the Coast Guard boards. vessels off of Miami and off of. California, one in four of the boats. they board don't have any drugs on them. So I I look at my colleagues who say. they're pro-life and they they value. God's inspiration in life, but they. don't give a [ __ ] about these people in. the boats. And are they terrible people. votes? I don't know. They're probably. poor people in Venezuela and Colombia. And really, they say, "Well, we're at. war with them. They're committing war by. bringing drugs into America." They're.

not even coming here. They're going to. these islands in the south part of the. Caribbean. The cocaine and it's not. fentinel at all. The cocaine's going to. Europe. Those little boats can't get. here. No one's even asked this common. question. Those boats have these four. engines on them. They're outboard boats. You can probably go about a 100 miles. before you have to refuel. They're 2,000. miles from us. They have to refuel 20. times to get here. They really It was. all a pretense and a false argument. But. I guess what I don't feel connected to. my Republican colleagues is that those.

lives don't matter at all and we just. blow them up. And against all justice. and against all laws of war, all laws of. just war, we never have blown up people. who were shipwrecked. It's against the. military code of justice to do that and. we're doing it and everybody just says, "Oh, well, they're drug dealers." Why do. you think they were attacking those. people? because I've heard a bunch of. different theories and one of the big. theories was they were trying to get the. cartel upset at Maduro in order to get. him out of office. >> It's all been a pretense for uh.

arresting Maduro. So, we have to set up. the predicate. We got to show you that. we care about drugs. And but the weird. thing about it is they really care about. drugs except for the former president of. Honduras, Hernandez, who was given a. 40-year sentence, was tried, was found. guilty, he was given 40 years in a US. jail, and he's let go at the same time. we're arresting Maduro because we're. he's attacking the United States with. drugs. And then I get this stuff. I had. this on air from a respectable. journalist the other day. She said,

"Well, don't you care about the kids in. our country dying from fentanyl?" I. said, "Of course I do, but you know, no. fentanyl comes from Venezuela." Not a. little bit, zero. >> Yeah. If we were really interested, we'd. be attacking Mexico. >> Well, they want to do that next. They. want to bomb Mexico. >> Well, do you think that this is like. sort of a predicate like we're trying to. set that up? >> I hope not. That's why I've opposed it. because you look, I have no love lost. for Madura. I wrote another book called. The Case Against Socialism. I think the. socialism historically there's been a. link between socialism and state.

sponsored violence. And so. I in the book we talk about a. 16-year-old girl who has a gang and her. gang's tariff or territory are the. dumpsters outside of restaurants to. scavenge for food. That's what uh Maduro. and Chavez did did to Venezuela. And so. I'm glad he's gone. I'm glad you know I. hope they choose wiser. But at the same. time, if the predicate is we're going to. snatch people, why don't we snatch Dilva. from Brazil? Some people say Bolsinaro.

is unfairly in prison may be true. And. they say Dilva cheated in the election. May also be true. But should the. president of the United States, no. matter who or she he or she is, have the. ability without a vote of Congress, the. people's representatives, just go snatch. people out of jails in Brazil and put a. new government in one. It doesn't. usually work. I'm hoping it's successful. here, but you know, we've tried it in. other places. Uh, it's one of the things. I liked about Donald Trump. He was. against regime change in Iraq. He was. against regime change in Libya, and it.

didn't work real well in Iraq or Libya. >> So, what do you think changed? Why do. why do you think they're so interested. in Venezuel? And I've I've jokingly said that there. ought to be. >> reoccurring issue that we thought was. resolved with the software. >> Are you back? Okay. All right. We're. good. Um, >> sorry folks, the program was interrupted. by the NSA. [laughter] Uh, you know, they are spying on the show to see. >> So, so here's the question. The Biden. administration had a $20 million, was it.

20 or $22 million bounty on Maduro? Like. they've wanted Maduro out forever. Why. was that? >> Um, because uh, you know, he they they don't. have free elections. It's an. authoritarian government. The people are. suffering. So, it's this idea that. that's wrong and government should and. and I think that's a noble concept to. want better government, more freedom for. people. But I could probably list for. you a dozen different countries that. have autocratic rulers right now and we.

could go in and we could arrest them all. and put people in place. But it. sometimes backfires. For example, I. think one of the things I think there's. a good feeling towards America from a. lot of Venezuelans right now that are. happy that Madura's gone. But ask them. again in six months if we're still. controlling their oil and we're doing. out a little bit of money, but the. money's not going to the people, it's. going to the socialist government. So. you realize we've traded one socialist. for another. >> Right? >> Maduro's gone, but his second in charge. who was elected with him and holds all. of his beliefs is there. And if she.

graciously or fearfully decides to. accept what they're telling her, that. we're going to confiscate all the oil. and we're going to sell it on the. international market, we're going to. give her a little bit back if she. behaves. And let's say that austerity doesn't. lead to a real vibrant economy. I think. six months from now that people will be. just as upset as they were and they'll. still have the same government. essentially, >> right? Um, so. one of the things that I've read was one.

of the primary. reasons why we went in was because. Russia and China were also interested in. Venezuela's oil and China had met with. Maduro literally the day that he was. kidnapped by the United States. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. I think China gets about 4% of. their oil. So it's a small amount of. their oil. The best way, I think, is not. through war to keep China out of uh. South America. It's through um trade. cooperation. That's why threatening to.

bomb Colombia is a bad idea because we. should continue to trade. We buy coffee. from them. We buy bananas from down. there. We should have trade. So this. Monday, I I sent the president a text. and he responded to him. I said, "The. ambassador called me and he said their. president's been trying for several. months to get a phone call through and. he'd love to talk to President Trump.". And the good thing about President. Trump, and this is something I always. really like about him, he'll make. decisions on the spot. He didn't ask a. committee to vote on whether he can talk. to the president. He said, "Of course I.

will." And the president still has good. instincts. I disagreed with the bombing. of the boats and the bombing of Maduro. I'm not too unhappy with the result, but. I don't want the the the chaos to spread. to Colombia. And I think Colombia does. cooperate with us, particularly on the. drug trade. It's not perfect, but they. they do cooperate. But he did end up. making a phone call to the president of. Colombia. And I think the um the setting. is for less of a problem. And you say, well, why have things changed from where.

he was talking about regime change in. the campaign? Some of it's the influence. of the people around him. Uh I've. jokingly said we ought to pass a law. saying Lindsey Graham shouldn't be. allowed in the White House because I. think uh he uh is a bad influence. And I. I Lindsay and I are friends, you know, we we we do okay, but he's much more for. a different type of philosophy for me. I. say we fight when we have to. We fight. when attacked. That's about it. I'm not. too interested in fixing every problem. around the world. Look, we have a $2. trillion deficit. We can't really go fix.

every problem in every country. And. sometimes when we try to change regime. and put better people in it, actually we. get the opposite. >> Right. Well, this is your dad's. philosophy as well. >> Yep. That's one of the things I really. enjoyed about him. Uh when you see these. uh things at play like the kidnapping of. Venezuela and the bombing of the boats, how informed are you about why they're. making their decisions? Are you. do you have conversations with the. people that are making the decisions?

>> We do, but the reasoning is mostly. public. Like we'll get briefings. We've. had briefings on the boats. Um. >> like what do they say in those. briefings? Um they say that uh [snorts]. I'll ask are they carrying arms because. it kind of makes a difference when they. kill unarmed people to me right. >> and they'll say yes their arms are drugs. and they're invading us with drugs. >> Okay. But they're not really right. because if they're if you look at it. geographically like you were just saying. they're so far away from us. They're in.

small boats and and they're not bringing. those drugs to the United States. And. the only way they can make war with the. drugs is if they're hitting you over the. head with the drugs and then making you. take the drugs. All right? So, I think. that's ridiculous. And I think that. there is a difference between crime and. war. And the reason why they have to get. it is it normally like if let's say the. boat came all the way here, that. speedboat got all the way to Miami, offloaded it into a U-Haul truck and. it's going down the road. Do we stand on. the side of the road and hit it with.

grenade launchers? Nobody would be for. that. All of a sudden, we're going to. believe that, well, gosh, there might be. the wrong we might blow up the wrong. truck or maybe we got the information. wrong. We would stop and search them. But why don't we do the boats? The Coast. Guard actually still does. Amidst all. this, Coast Guard's still top stopping. dozens of boats, but they tell us we're. only blowing up the ones that are. related to the terrorist, the trenda or. whatever. >> I don't know how they can know that with.

certainty. I don't know how they can. know with certainty uh that some of I. think most of these probably work. >> Why do you think they're doing it then? >> They wanted they wanted regime change. and I think Rubio has wanted regime. change. He's been itching for it for 15. years and I think he has a great deal of. influence with the president and they've. convinced and it's it's a it's a selling. someone like the president that he can. use his power for good is a is an. argument that I think a lot of people. would succumb to. He believes that he's. doing good and if it all works out and.

freedom rings true in in Venezuela, people will say, "Well, gosh, yeah, I. think he and that's why now people think. he did the right thing." I think people. don't know yet what's going to happen, whether or not people are going to be. happy keeping the same socialist. government, whether they'll have a free. election and somebody else to win isn't. known yet. But I do think that while. he's done that and it seems to have. worked, it's my job and others to say. that really invading Greenland's not a. reasonable thing. Invading Cuba, invading Colombia, that there has to be.

push back, but I get a lot of flack. I. mean, there are there are uh people that. rally behind the president that are. telling me I need to pipe down, that I. need to be quiet. So the threats that. >> well a lot of the the the mob the the. internet mob is is angry is angry. >> Yeah you can't read that. >> Yeah you can't but you got to be a. little bit wary also but I mean there. there is a thought and I I don't think. it's good for government though. I also. don't even think it's good for the. president who I largely like on a lot of.

issues. It's not good for him to have no. critics for people would be afraid uh to. criticize him. >> I agree. Um, so is the argument that. they want regime change that these. cartels are working with Maduro. >> and that's why we blow them up? >> That's sort of the argument, but I don't. think the cartels and the drugs aren't. really important. It's about regime. change because. >> Okay, but if it's about regime change, why blow up the drug post? >> Because they need a drug predicate. They. need a They want to say this isn't war.

It is kind of war and we're going to. take people as if it's war, but it's not. really war. It was an arrest warrant. And they've actually persuaded some. otherwise good people in my caucus to. say, "Well, normally I would be against. bombing another nation's capital and. removing the leader." Oh, but he was. indicted for for the indictment. Most. people don't know this. Part of the. indictment is for drugs. But that's he's. breaking a US law. How do we indict. foreigners in their country? They. haven't broken law in our country for. breaking law. But other than drugs,

they've also indicted Maduro for uh. possessing or conspiring to possess. machine guns. And it's like, what leader. in the world doesn't have security. guards with machine guns? We have. machine guns. >> Wait a minute. Did Maduro personally. have illegal machine guns? And illegal. how is illegal internationally? Like. what does that mean? >> It means absolutely nothing. >> That's crazy. That means how many people. in Texas have machine [clears throat]. guns? You could legally have them here. I used to go to the machine gun fest and. it was a machine [laughter] it was a.

machine gun shootout. They'd have a line. of 50 machine guns and you have to have. a special permit to get them but you can. get them. And uh but the thing is is. what's ridiculous about it is our. leaders our soldiers have machine guns. Every country that has soldiers and. security forces has machine guns. But to. indict him but that's then their. argument is it's okay to blow up. Caracus. It's okay to do something that. looks like it looks like a war, but it's. not a war because it was just an arrest. warrant. It's a game. It's gamesmanship. for people who might succumb to a a a I.

think a silly argument. >> So, but so what is the primary. motivation for regime change? It's it. can't just be he's a bad guy because. there's a lot of. >> you know there's I think a country. suffers and they want people justifiably. want better stuff for the people there. I think they also do worry as you. mentioned earlier they say there's too. much influence of of Russia and China. there. Um. >> I think that's what I've been reading. most that makes sense is that the the. concern was that China or Russia was.

going to ramp up oil production, >> right? >> But I don't know. >> You know, the the whole oil situation is. an example of why socialism doesn't work. very well. I mean it's like 30 years. old. Everything's old. Everything's. rotting and rusting. They do a million. barrels a day. They have more oil than. Saudi Arabia, but they they are just. it's completely incompetent. And mainly. because the one thing that capitalism. does is it gives you supply and demand.

and a price. And they've controlled the. price, not the oil price because that's. an international price, but they've. controlled the price of all the things. that go into the equipment and who owns. it. So you have a bunch of people who. studied in Marxism in Cuba running the. companies. That's not what we do here. You either make a profit here or you get. fired. >> Isn't the oil in a much more difficult. form to extract than the oil in Saudi. Arabia? So by saying they have more oil. than Saudi Arabia maybe, but. >> that may be true. That may be true.

There's a difference. >> I think it's like almost a lot of it's. heavy crude. I think I don't know the. details of which kind of oil they have, but I think there probably are some. technological problems. But I think. there's I think it's easy to make the. argument that they're not hitting their. their maximum efficiency with, you know, the current socialist government, >> right? Um I think that's a good. argument. But the the what I had read. about the extraction was that the oil. that is in Venezuela is almost like. asphalt and that it requires all these.

>> that could be. >> chemicals to break it down. >> and so there may be more difficulty than. Saudi Arabia but I think also the system. you know so when you when you look at. Venezuela and you look at what happens. under price controls you need prices to. go up and down based on demand because. um if you don't you have shortages if. you set the price too low and I'm a. manufacturer. I'm not going to sell it. for that. So I you all suddenly get. shortage. If you set the price too high, then it just sits on the shelf and a. black market develops. There was a story.

in um behind the iron current and I. think it was in Poland. I love this. story. Guy goes in a store and he says, "Oh, are you the store that doesn't have. any eggs?" And the shop owner said, "No, no, no. We're the store that doesn't. have any toilet paper. The store across. the street's the one that doesn't have. any eggs." But it was so common that you. always knew that you the stores were. always missing something. There are. always shortages. And this is the the. main thing about prices that is so. incredibly important and people don't. think about it, but it's incredibly. important to let prices go up and down.

without the government getting involved. That's why like it's a mistake. It'll. sound right, but president wants to ban. interest rates above 10% for credit. cards. Well, part of the interest rate. being much higher if you're going for a. same day loan is one, you're much higher. risk. you're more desperate, but also by. you having to pay 30%, it's going to. teach you to be a better planner the. next time because you you can't keep. borrowing at 30%. But the marketplace. demands the 30%. It's what the market.

will bear and if it was too much, then. the interest rate will come down. And no. one should borrow at 30%. I mean, they. should teach in high school out people. to plan their budget. So you don't do. that. those in on college students. Those students, people that are a little. bit more, we're talking about ignorant. people. College students is they're high. up on the list of ignorant people. People lacking common sense. Yeah. It's. that people Yeah. Yeah. People get into. a gambling problem. They get into some. problem where they don't have money. But.

if you say it can be 10%, what does that. tell me about my behavior? I just keep. borrowing at 10%. I might have to stop. someday at 30%. You know what I mean? And so the marketplace develops these. things, but that price is sending. signals back to people. It's the same. way with interest rates on houses. Uh. the president's always like, "We we need. lower interest rates. Houses are so. expensive. Why don't we just fix the. price at at 2% and tell the banks they. can't get more than 2%." The problem is. this. If if there's a boom and.

everybody's buying houses and the demand. goes up for houses, prices will go up, the demand for the money goes up and as. the interest rates rise, then the. economy will slow down. So in 2000, from. 2000 to about 2007, the Federal Reserve. kept the interest rates low. It's like. 2%. You could get money was free. And. there was this boom in houses. And there. was some dishonesty, too, in the. subprime market. But the boom kept. going. If interest rates had risen to. four or 5%, home sales would have gone. down and people would have lamented.

that. But you wouldn't have gotten such. an enormous boom and the crash. So the. cycle of the economy going up and down. is dictated by interest rates. And you. want interest rates. You don't want high. interest rates. Nobody wants that. But. if you don't allow them to move, that. sends a signal back that that we're. buying too many houses and we're. building too many houses and we'll slow. down. If you just send the signal to. keep interest rates at two, you get the. boom so high up here that the crash is. devastating like it was in 2010. >> What What are your feelings about. corporations buying up personal homes?

like what you there's Blackstone and. there's a bunch of different. corporations that have bought I don't. know if it's Blackstone but I heard that. Blackstone there was a a drop in their. stock price because of this thing that. Trump is trying to do now to stop. corporations from buying individual. family homes and then leasing them out. to people. So in a in a in a free market, in a free. world where you can choose a hemp. product, you also make contracts with.

who you sell to. So for me to tell you, to me, it's a freedom issue. If I tell. you u you can't sell your house to. Blackstone, that's me limiting your. choices. Maybe Blackstone's going to. give you 5% more. I'm stealing 5% from. you. And it's not a given that it's. going to be bad. might be bad. But I. think if you look at this carefully, for. example, what's one of the impediments. or one of the costs of buying or selling. a house is the real estate price. Uh so. the realtor takes, you know, they used. to take what like 6%. But you know, now.

sometimes you can get 3% and you go. through a bigger company. So. corporatization or making something. bigger where a bigger entity owns. something leads to lower cost because. they can actually lower cost. So it to. me it's just a freedom issue. I don't. think actually probably I think the. price of homes has gone up because the. value of dollar has gone down. We are. destroying the dollar. It's like is gold. more precious? No. People are freaking. out about how many dollars have been. printed and how much debt we're. incurring. So the dollar loses its value.

and prices are home. I don't I I'm not. making light of the problem. You know, I. have kids of the age of trying to get. into houses. It's it's difficult. Prices. are extraordinarily high and interest. rates are still high, too. >> Yeah. I think the fear is like people. are terrified that these enormous. corporations are going to buy up all of. the single family homes and you won't be. able to get one and you'll be forced to. lease a home and you'll never be able to. own a home. >> That's the. >> Yeah, I I know. I think I would probably. want to study it more thoroughly to find.

out if that's actually the result. because some people talk about a fear of. it happening. Um, you know, if if I'm. Blackstone, I'm not doing stuff just to. hold them around. And I'm not like uh. you know Mr. Potter, you know, it's a. wonderful life and reing my hands. together. I'm going to wait. They're. they they won't make any money holding. on to a bunch of houses. They're going. to have to sell them. >> And it may be what if what if Blackstone. does have 10,000 homes? Maybe they'll do. it with a reduced you go directly to. them by website. Um Goldman Sachs owns.

homes there. Enities like this. Buffett. War, you know, Warren Buffett, Bergkshire Hathaway owns homes as well. So I don't think it's a brand new thing, but I would explore it. I think the it's. a reaction to think big is bad and that. these big players are going to rip us. off. But if it's a free contract, I. think more of whether or not I should. infringe on your liberty and tell you. can't sell your house to Blackstone. I. think that's that's me limiting your. ability to contract with whoever you. want. >> That makes sense. Um I think the fear is.

well the only reason why they would be. doing it is they could make more money. leasing the homes out than. >> Yeah. I don't know. Um, the same way. with buying apartments, too. I'm I'm. guessing they've bought apartments, too, because kids are staying in apartments. longer, and the apartment business has. been a really good business for like the. last 10 years, buying apartments, but. corporations own apartments. I mean, the. real disaster isn't stuff like that, the. marketplace, the disaster of like rent. and homes and not having enough places.

like to live in Manhattan, which is very. expensive, or New York in general. And I. I'm positive the socialist is going to. make it worse. Rent control. What does. that mean? So, if you're in the middle. of Manhattan and you can get an. apartment for $300, you're like, "Oh, that's great." But if I'm the landlord. and all the stuff's broken in there and. there's holes in the walls, I'm not. fixing them for $300 a month. I I need. $3,000 a month to keep the place up. So, what happens is the apartments go to, you know, you know, into ruin. And also, there's a shortage. You need money and.

you need big people with money to build. apartment complexes, particularly in New. York where you got to tear something. down and build something new. I'm not. doing it if you're going to tell me what. my rent's going to be. So, socialism. doesn't work. And the one thing people. don't understand about it because they. they fear somebody being ripped off and. how expensive something is is there was. an econ an economist, Joseph Schimpiter, and he put it this way. He said the. miracle of capitalism is not that the. queen can buy silk stockings but the. factory girl can. But in the beginning.

the first person the only person to buy. them will be queens and kings and rich. people. So the story of calculators my. dad had a calculator. He was a doctor. and we were well to do. We weren't. extraordinarily rich but wellto-do. He. had a calculator for 300 bucks in the. 1970s. All could do is add, subtract, and multiply. And it's about this thick. and this big. But you can go tour a. condo and pretend to buy a condo and the. real estate agent will give you a. calculator now. But in the beginning,

only rich people got them. But if you. forbid rich people from getting them at. a high price, the only way it gets to a. low price, like Tesla started with more. expensive cars at a high price, they're. coming down, but they only come down. because rich people bought them first. So we can't be we can never be of the. notion that we're going to make things. better by preventing prices from being. too high in something. It's how products. get started. So, the queen may have. bought the first uh silk stockings, but. eventually capitalism brings the price. down enough that you have mass.

distribution and actually a factory girl. can buy them. >> Cell phones are a good argument about. that. >> Exactly. >> In that defense, um so when it when it. comes to the economy like and when it. comes to spending money, what what do. you think can be done differently? Like. say if you had a magic wand and you. could. turn things around, what would you do. differently? >> I think the first thing to acknowledge. is both parties are equally guilty. The. debt is the problem of both parties and.

the spending is both parties and there. is a compromise. I tell people it's a. dirty little deal that's going on right. in front of your nose. The the right, Lindsey Graham and the Warhawks want. more military money. The left, Chris. Murphy and uh Booker, they they want. more welfare. What's the compromise? You. scratch my back, I'll scratch you. I'll. let you have your military money if you. let me have the welfare money. So, the. compromise of the last 50 years is. they've both grown enormously. But the. budget we vote on is only one-third of.

the spending. Twothirds of the spending. is mandatory spending. That's just on. autopilot. We never vote on it. The. one-third that we vote on is about $2. trillion. That's what the deficit is. So. when I vote for spending and I vote. against most of it, almost all of that. is borrowed. What would be the. compromise that would fix it? The. reverse. I would go to um you know the. left, my buddy Ron Widen, who I am good. friends with, and I would say look, we're out of money. The interest is. killing us. It's crowding everything.

out. What if we spend 1% less next year. on welfare? And I'll tell my party they. have to spend 1% less on military. If. you do that across the board, but you'd. have to include the mandatory programs, you can balance your budget gradually. over a five-year period. And I've called. this the penny plan. And I think it's a. compromise because instead of what. conservatives have typically done is. they've said it's Sesame Street. If we. can get rid of public TV and Sesame. Street, we'll we'll show those liberals. and we'll balance the budget. Well, it's.

not enough money. And I'm not against. doing it. I voted to reduce the money, but there are some people on the left. who live and die by public TV and they. think it's the greatest thing and it's. an offense to them. So rather than cut a. 100% of it, let's cut the and you can. balance the budget right now if you cut. 6% of the military, 6% of Sesame Street, 6% of everything everybody wants. And I. think you could actually do it. And I. try this message out sometime. Everybody.

comes to Washington wants money. And. there are usually things that you can. have sympathy for. So one week they come. and they wear the purple ribbons and. it's for Alzheimer's disease. Well, I. have family members who have. Alzheimer's. I have a great deal of. sympathy, but we're two trillion short. So what I usually say to them is we're a. rich country and we should be able to. spend some of our money on Alzheimer's. research, but you got a hundred million. last year. I'm making up the number, but. let's say you got a hundred million last. year and because we're short of money, everybody has to get less this year.

would it be okay if I only vote for 94. million for you next year? And when you. put it that way, and they're usually in. there with tears running down their face. talking about their mom and their. grandmother and Alzheimer's and they're. worried they're going to get it to a. person, you look around the table and. they say, "That sounds kind of fair. Everybody has to take a hit, right? 94%.". Almost almost everything that is like, for example, food stamps. People say, "Well, the people are going to starve. without food stamps." Well, why don't we. just get rid of Coca-Cola and Pepsi? No. sugar. Uh, no sugar drinks on food.

stamps. That's uh 10% of food stamps. That'd be a 10% cut. We'll do. We'll. We're going to spend 10% less. No one's. going to starve. >> Would you spend Hold on. But would you. spend less or would you just limit the. purchasing to non. >> We'll probably be lucky just to limit. the purchase. But I would spend less. >> But you couldn't spend But how could you. spend less? You would have to give them. less and you say, "Hey, not only can you. not buy sugary drinks, but now you'll. have less money to buy healthy food, which is more expensive.". >> Well, what what you would do is But you. know what I'm saying? Well, maybe if you. had a budget, let's say it's $100.

million and next year the food stamp. budget is going to be $94 million and. you say you can't buy Coca-Cola and. Pepsi and sugar drinks, they would still. have to make their decisions with a. little bit less, but they on average are. spending 6% or Yeah, I think it's about. No, I think it's about 10% of the. dollars are going towards these sugar. drinks. They would have to make. decisions to do it. But I think even. something like food stamps that there's. a strong argument, oh, people will be. hungry. Hunger is not a problem in our. country. It really isn't. Our problem is.

too much food. It it frankly is. There. is no one starving in our country. There. is food everywhere. >> Right. But it's not too much food. It's. non-nutritious food. I mean, it's not. bad. It's not even food. It's things you. eat that [laughter] have no nutrition in. it at all. Like Coca-Cola. Exactly. like. candy and cookies and all the [ __ ] that. you. >> and I've been talking you can get. candies you know you can get a bag of. candy on your food stamps. >> right. >> there's no that should and so I've been. talking about this for years and so I.

had a Democrat senator who I can talk to. were friends we're walking down the hall. and I tell him about it he says that. sounds reasonable but I don't want to. reduce the dollars so what you're saying. is the compromise is probably Democrats. are never going to vote to reduce the. dollars we should but we won't get it. but even when we got push came to shove. his staff piped up and And they said, "Oh, I thought you were a libertarian. I. thought you were for choice." And I. said, "I am with your money. I mean, the. taxpayer money. We don't let you buy. alcohol." I think it's arguable that. sugar drinks are as bad as buying.

alcohol. >> It's close. I mean, certainly in terms. of health consequences. >> Yeah. >> You know, diabetes and obesity and all. the other co-orbidities that come along. with obesity. But the thing is, it's. like if you're asking them to buy. healthy food, healthy food is definitely. more expensive. >> Sometimes if you want to go to Whole. Foods sometimes, >> well, if you want to go to Whole Foods. and and buy things there, it is more. expensive to buy all the fresh fruits. and things, but there is a lot of things. that you can buy that really frankly. aren't, you know, a head of lettuce is.

not that expensive, >> right? All right. But it's not you up if. you get if you want a calorier rich. food. If you want to match calorie per. calorie, >> beans aren't that expensive and they're. healthier for you than most of the. things we eat. But really the thing is. is. >> you got to teach people how to cook now. >> Yeah, >> that's the problem. >> Actually, I would I not me, >> right? >> I would have uh this in schools. So I. would have uh the old concept of home. economics in schools and here's what I. would teach. Uh some of this comes from. a book. There was a book written by. Charles Murray years ago called Coming.

Apart and it it compared people and said. these are the rich people in your. society and these are the poor people. just divided into two groups and the two. main statistics that put you in either. rich group or poor group having kids. before you were married and uh. education. >> Charles Murray, isn't that the guy that. had very controversial ideas about race. and IQ? >> Uh yep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But this wasn't racial. this was. uh based on um whether or not you um you. know uh were in one of those two. categories. But I would teach this in.

home economics. I wouldn't teach. morality. I wouldn't teach people that. it's evil to have sex. I would say that. the odds are the statistics are if you. have not had your children, you have a. choice. The statistics are overwhelming. that if you have your kids before you're. married, uh you'll be poor. And the. thing is, it is true. Why not teach. that? But in that same class, I would. teach uh how to go to the grocery store, what to buy, and also how to uh to. prepare it. I'd go to the grocery store. I would do this for obese people in our.

country. So Medicaid pays just. gazillions of dollars for diabetes and. all that stuff. I would pay for um. dietary training, but I actually think. you need to go to the grocery store with. people and show them all the crap. they're putting in their cart that they. shouldn't be putting in. >> That sounds like you're for another. government program. [laughter] H damn, you got me. >> Well, it's also it sounds great on. paper, but the reality is in order to. change people's behavior, it takes a. radical shift of your perceptions. >> And that's very difficult to do. You.

can't just teach people like this is how. you make spaghetti and meatballs and. then now they're going to eat healthy. It's it's not that spaghetti meatballs. the most. >> You don't really have to teach people. People aren't as dumb as you think they. are. So, >> it's not that they're dumb. It's just. they're setting their ways. >> I know, but you're right. to to change. people's behavior better. Extraordinarily difficult. >> But that's why they have to be have to. make choices. They become smart very. quickly. If you give somebody 96% or 94%. of what they were getting for food. stamps, they will be smart within a. week. They they will make these. decisions.

>> I I would argue against that. I would I. think that there's a problem is that. people are very set in their ways and. they've developed a pattern of behavior. over the course of decades that you're. not just going to shift with a change in. policy and a reduction in their food. stamps. >> What What about this? Do you think. anybody has changed their lifestyle in. America since two people at McDonald's. cost 20 bucks to eat now? A burger, a. drink, and fries is 20 bucks for two. people. Do you think anybody in America. has shifted their buying patterns for. food and are eating at home more? I. guarantee you thousands and thousands of.

people are eating uh less out. >> probably. I've seen Wendy's business. You know, >> it's a bad example because McDonald's is. [ __ ] terrible for you too. [laughter]. Like that doesn't make any sense. >> The president eats it. >> Well, I do too, but it's it's not good. for you. Filet of fish is delicious. >> People will not you can't teach I I. agree with you to a certain extent. I. don't think you can teach people to make. wiser decisions. You can sort of. encourage it as part of the educational. model. And I wouldn't spend more money. on this. We spend a lot of money on. education. I would make this part of the.

curriculum. But I do think that if you. aren't given a financial incentive to. make these decisions, you won't do it. You could ban the foods and actually am. for taking them off the formulary. Uh we. have something called WIC, which is uh. uh um women and children. It's for food. during pregnancy. It only has healthy. food on it. You can't get Coca-Cola with. your Wick dollars. But you can go. through the line with your SNAP plus. your Wick and all that stuff. And but. I'd get rid of the sugar drinks. I'd get. rid of chips. I'd get rid of candy.

Yeah. Ding-dongs. >> Well, I think that's a no-brainer. That's a no-brainer because that stuff's. not food. >> But I don't have one Democrat sign on. I. have yet to get a Democrat. No reduction. of money. So, my bill doesn't reduce. money. I think we should voters. Democrats want held prisoner, but. they're voters. Their vote Their voters. want that. They don't want you to tell. them what to do with that money. And. they a lot of people feel entitled to. that money which is also very odd. >> But I don't do it because I dislike. people on food stamps. I do it because I.

want them to be healthier. Yes. And I. actually don't want you know the goal is. see people think the goal is we need. more Medicaid. No. What we need is less. people on Medicaid. The goal should be. an economy where 5% of the economy. really in a good functioning world five. six not much more than that shouldn't be. able to take care of themselves. There. really should be um health care that. almost everybody can afford um except. for a small percentage of people. You. know, once you have kidney disease, you're on diialysis. It's extremely.

expensive. So, almost everybody's on. Medicaid. It's a little more. understandable. Diabetes, if we fed. people, right, 80% of adult onset. diabetes is curable by loss of weight, >> right? Um, I I see and I I I see where. they're going to argue against what. you're saying about food stamps and and. you know, from this libertarian. perspective, but I think you're. absolutely right in that you should be. allowed to do whatever you want with. your own money, but if you're going to. get government assistance, there should. be some sort of a limitation to you. getting food that's only healthy. We.

shouldn't be paying for you to kill. yourself. Just like you can't buy. cigarettes, right? You can't buy. alcohol. >> And this is something Bobby Kennedy is. changing. And they hate him. Just hate. him because they're voters. Their voters. don't. No, not the voters. The. establishment hates him more. His own. family hates him more. But you know. what? If he only does one thing and one. thing he's remembered for is treating. sugar as a not a sin, as a as a bad. food. Sugar added to convince us that. adding sugar to cereals and all these.

things that we add sugar to that it's. bad for your health. that will transform. if if you know the people who will it. certainly will and the education the. understanding of that when I was a kid. and we we I talked about this the other. day with my friend Whitney we were doing. a podcast like we didn't think sugar was. bad for you we just thought it gave you. cavities [laughter]. >> you know we would throw sugar on our. cereal and we put sugar in their coffee. and sugar and this and sugar nobody. thought anything of it. >> but since the government is responsible.

for so much food anyway think about how. healthy I don't think we should have. Sugar drinks in high schools. They have. machines in all the high schools. They. say, "Oh, we get extra money for our. football field. Let them put non-sugar. drinks in if you really want their. advertising dollars.". >> I agree. You know, >> I agree. I mean, look, but again, you. know, if you're a kid and you work and. you've got a job, you know, you're. working at a corner store and you're. making, you know, whatever you make 15. bucks an hour, whatever. Not not even. What's What's minimum wage? >> Well, uh, the state federal is.

different. state. Some states have $15. an hour. Federal federal is still like. $7. It's inconsequential. >> So, if you're a kid and you make $7 an. hour, let's say, working at a store, and. you want to use that $7 to buy a. Coca-Cola and a pack of ring dings, like, who cares? >> $7 is probably gone now. >> Yeah, it's it's your whole paycheck for. the hour. But the point is, >> I'm not giving you money. I think it's. very reasonable to say this money can. like we're supposed to be helping you.

get back on your feet. This is the. problem with social safety nets who. where I'm a big believer in it. When I. was a child, my family was poor and we. were on welfare and we were on food. stamps, but they worked their way out of. it and then when I was in high school, they were doing really really well, >> right? So, it's like it's it's a very. valuable thing for families that are. down on their luck and things aren't. going well. And I'm a big believer and I. think we should treat this country like.

a community and when you have the. downtrodden and the people that aren't. doing so well, I think it's really. important to help them. I think that to. let abject poverty and starvation exist. in a country that has such extreme. wealth is aborant. It doesn't make any. sense to me. But I also think people get. very dependent on social safety systems. and social safety nets. And when you. have people that have generation after. generation have existed on welfare, then. it becomes a problem. And it it it.

becomes a problem where we have to. figure out how to motivate people or. educate people as to choices that they. can make that'll be more beneficial to. their lives to provide for themselves. and be outside of it. Another thing. that's going to mess with that. motivation is unhealthy food. Because. one of the shest ways to keep people. unmotivated and have no energy is to. keep them unhealthy. Healthier people. have more vibrancy. You have more energy.

to go pursue your dreams and do the. things you want to do in life. If you're. constantly dealing with type two. diabetes because you've been eating. sugar all day and garbage all day and. you're you're morbidly obese, you're not. going to have the same energy as a. person who's eating healthy food and. getting up early and drinking water and. it's just it's going to affect the. choices that you make because it's more. burdensome to carry around that body. Yeah, I think that and I don't disagree. with what you're saying on having a.

safety net, but we have to have tough. love involved with it and we have to. have the idea that it's it's temporary. and we're trying to get you to another. place. >> So, um. >> can't enable people to continue bad. choices over and over and over again and. say, "Well, we just have to take care of. them, >> right?" So, food stamps when they. started were really primarily for for. mothers uh single mothers with many kids. who can't work. So, mom can't work, we. didn't want them all to starve. She has. four kids and once you've had the kids, I'm not against that. They're there and. you got to do some of the kids. But we.

didn't give it to um able-bodied, you. know, 21-year-old men who were in. college didn't get it or able-bodied men. who are in out of high school didn't get. it. You didn't do that because they need. to work and they still can work. There. are jobs everywhere for able-bodied. people. So, we have to look carefully at. all these programs. And this is what. some people on the left complain about. Able-bodied people, if they get. something, should be very, very. temporary, if at all. Yes. >> And um so then all the programs have to. be re-evaluated. Like when I first uh. moved to Bowling Green, Kentucky in.

1993, one of my patients was head of the local. welfare and there was a local welfare. department and there was some um real. degree of the people had to come in on. certain deadlines. They had to prove. that they were work or looking for work. or why they couldn't look for work. And. there'll be some people that that still. have four kids at home will come back. and won't be able to work again. But the. able-bodied people come back in six. weeks and she would show them, "Here's. the newspaper. Here's a job. I want you. to go here tomorrow." And she'd make.

them do that. And not because she hated. them. She worked with welfare because of. the beneficial part of it. But we've. gotten away from that. And so if I if I. proposed something like that, it's like, "Oh, you don't like the poor?" No, I. want them to become rich. But we also do. have, and this is a fallacy, people are. moving up and down from rich to poor all. the time in our country. 20% of the. people bowing in the bottom 20% make the. top 20%. 60% of the people who make a million. bucks this year will not make a million. bucks next year. People are going up and.

down. We have great income mobility. And. the reason you have to express that is. otherwise you lose hope. If you live in. a poor area of town and you know single. mom and everybody tells you you know. you're just never going anywhere, that's. when your reaction is I might as well. steal or sell drugs or something. Instead, the message to our young people. is there's it should be there never been. a better time to believe it be alive. I. believe that so strongly and that we're. doing a disservice to our young people. by saying you're a victim. Oh, your.

color of skin is dark. Nobody's going to. want to hire you. It's the opposite. We. live in a time where people are less. likely to judge you based on your color. of the skin than ever in the history of. mankind. Doesn't mean there's no bigots. out there. People are less likely to. judge you on your sexuality than they. ever have, on the color of your skin, on. your religion. We are an incredible. country. Are we perfect? No. But there's. never historically been a better time to. be alive. And you can do it. I mean, you.

literally can do a manual job, earn. enough money to start your own small. business. You know, if you want to, if. you're in high school and you're a. decent student, but you're not a rocket. scientist, you don't love reading books, you don't love math, but you're pretty. good and you're intelligent enough. If. you do HVAC, you'll have one hell of a. career. You go to a technical school in. Louisville, all of the people in the. class, I went to one recently, there was. 100 people in the class for HVAC, fixing. air conditioners. Every one of what. their tuition was paid for and they had. a job if they completed the course. And.

HVAC, if you're an HVAC worker, I'm. guessing I'll bet you you could make 80. to $100,000 a year fixing air. conditioners. But if you start your own. HVAC company, you'll be the richest man. or woman in town. They they're they're. in my town. The people in the HVAC. companies are some of the richest people. in our town. >> Well, it's the it's a good argument also. with automation and AI because. automation and AI is going to do a lot. of jobs that people are going to school. for. Unfortunately, a lot of people are. getting degrees that are going to be.

irrelevant when automation and AI takes. whatever percentage of jobs it's. inevitably going to take. But trades, being a carpenter, being a plumber, those are always going to be valuable. >> I think things like that, you you may. have technical assistance when you get. there that a computer helps diagnose the. problem and helps fix the air. conditioner, but I don't think the jobs. I I talk to people every day, and many. of them are. >> well, you're going to have to carry. things and install things. You have to. get in, open up walls. >> I think it's still going to exist, but I.

talk to everybody every day, and they're. scaring the world, saying there'll be no. more jobs, and everybody will just sit. around looking at each other. And I I. really I don't I hope that's not true. And I and I you know they're richer and. smarter than I am maybe, but they all. say it's going to happen. But I say if. it happens, what will also develop is. secret societies and they'll be like. speak easys and you'll go down the. stairs, you'll knock on the door and. someone will decide you'll do the. password. You'll go inside and you'll be. able to build [ __ ] in there. You'll be. able to like grout bricks and put them.

together. You'll be able to nail wood. together. Secret work. Because people. will still want to work even though. there are no jobs. They will secretly. want to work. >> Why? Why would it be secret? >> Because the government will make it. illegal. The government's stupid. >> The government will make work illegal. Is that what you're asking? >> Yeah, I think this is a dystopian. society. Here, bear me out. So, >> what novels are you reading? >> This is this is I taught a course in. this. So, when we have AI, people saying. the jobs disappear, work will become so. foreign, but there'll be a small remnant. that searches for work. But they'll do. it secretly. And after you build stuff.

in the little speak easy down under with. a secret password, you'll have to. destroy it before the government comes. >> That's just my theory of what's going to. happen. I might be wrong. I could be. wrong. >> Have you ever had a conversation with. Elon? >> Uh, yep. >> He thinks that we're going to need. universal basic income. >> And uh he thinks it won't actually be. universal basic income. his rosecoled. glasses version of it is universal high. income. >> because he believes that AI is going to. create so much wealth that there will be.

so much money that people won't have to. work anymore which the so hear me out. here so the question is like is it. essential that the only way you take. care of yourself and feed yourself and. house yourself is through work and can. people find meaning outside of work can. they find things to do or will they just. be sitting around playing video games. all day. >> So, the first thing that I'll probably. just acknowledge is he may be smarter. than me and he he's probably a little. bit richer than me. So, I don't discount.

his opinion, Elon Musk, but I hope he's. wrong. And with regard to work, I think. work is something so necessary that the. problems we have in our society are with. the people who aren't getting the. benefit of working. And so, I see work. and I would mandate work for welfare. programs. I don't if you're able-bodied, you would have to work. I wouldn't give. you a penny. Everybody would have to. work. But I tell people I don't I'm not. in favor of that as punishment. That is. re reward. Work is a reward. I can tell.

you that I've I've never been unhappy. Maybe I'm lucky in the work I've had. But I've always wanted to go to work. And I've done hard jobs. I've roofed. houses. I've worked on lawns. I've I've. done every job that a kid growing up in. the 70s do. But I was never unhappy to. do it. And always felt better. If I. sweat off 5 lbs, 10 pounds in the hot. sun, I felt great. And but. >> okay, you and I are very different. because [laughter] my bad jobs that I. had motivated me to never want to do. >> Yeah. I don't I didn't want to do them. forever. You're right about that.

>> Well, motivated me to find a thing in. life that I didn't have to just work as. a laborer. >> Yeah. And I noticed you don't really. sweat too much in this current gig. you've got. >> No, this is a pretty easy gig. But I. mean, I did a lot of those kind of jobs. when I was younger. What they did was. teach me that I didn't want to do that. forever. >> Yeah, there has to be work. And I don't. I hope people won't preach too much that. AI is going to be no work because that. to me is a desparing future. It's a. dystopian future when there is no work. Most of the time and and this is while I.

do respect Elon Musk and think he may. know more than I know about this. The. reason I would say is that from a. historical perspective, every bit of. automation has led to more jobs. This. would be the first time in the entire. history where automation took jobs. They. feared that when the um automated loom. came that all the weavers would go out. of business. >> What they found instead is people had to. make the sewing machines, people had to. fix the sewing machines and then.

clothing prices went down and people. used to have one wardrobe, maybe two. shirts. Now people have doz even regular. people can have dozens of shirts. You. can get a shirt for five bucks at Target. or eight bucks at at Walmart. So it. changed things when electricity came. around. The candlestick makers rioted. The lites in the 19th century broke the. wombs with hammers and protested against. but we always got more jobs. Progress. went on. So I guess from a historical. point of perspective, I don't know that. there's a good example of automation. It.

could lower employment in a certain. industry, but overall employment, look, we have like seven billion people on the. planet and we have less poverty on the. planet than we've ever had right now. >> Right? But it's not lites that are. concerned. It's people that are aware. that this is an unprecedented. technology. >> Artificial intelligence is an. unprecedented. >> and that's the question. They're they're. positing that this is different than. it's ever been. And I guess my argument. and I'm like I say I am willing to.

acknowledge these people may know more. about this but my argument is from a. historical perspective we've never had. any kind of invention or automation that. ultimately led to less jobs and always. led to more and led to more prosperity. Now they're arguing AI is going to get. more prosperity and that's why then. they'll say artificial high income. there'll be plenty of money but there. there has to be work for the mental. well-being of of people. they they. cannot sit around and it um. >> No, I agree. But I mean, can you find.

meaning in life without it just being. for money? Can you can you find tasks. and things and goals? >> Which gets back to my speak easy and it. may or may not have to be secret, but. people are going to go work even just to. work. But um. >> well, why does it have to be work? I. mean, why can't you it be art? Why can't. it be learning how to play music? Something interesting. But I also think. that the more leisure time you have, AI. is going to give I I I I grant them that. AI is going to give us more leisure time.

and we also are progressing and progress. is exponential at this point. Um in 1820. before the industrial revolution at the. beginning of it 98% of people lived on. less than $2 a day and the World Bank. does these statistics. everybody. The. only people didn't were royalty, you. know. The only ob the only obesity was. among royalty. Regular people even in. 1920 there were no fat people. >> Well, they didn't have processed food. back then. >> They didn't they didn't they didn't have. abundance of time and abund they didn't. have an overabundance of food. The.

reason we're taller, everybody but me. got more calories and got taller. >> protein. >> Yeah. And uh so if it's a food thing, but in 1820 98% of people live in abject. poverty, less than $2 a day. Today, not. just the United States, the entire world. is less than 10% live on $2 a day. Constant dollars controlling for. inflation. We went from 98% to less than. 10%. AI is going to continue that. And. maybe it's exponential, but when you. have more leisure time, you have time to. think of other stuff to do. We have we.

have time for our idle brains, which are. pretty big, to come up with new ideas. So, I think it's not yet known what we. will think of, what may pass as work. Maybe art is work at some point and. everybody's an artist. Um but maybe. there also are um people who like to uh. you know e even now there's automation. and we can grow with pesticides and. fertilizers and stuff just enormous. amount of food and actually that's been. good for the most part in applying in.

supplying more food for people but there. are still people have organic farms who. don't use pesticides or any of this. There are people who have cattle with no. antibiotics and no vaccines, chickens. Um, and that's sort of labor intensive. and not as cost-effective, but the only. way that can exist is you got to let. them charge more, you know, so that. niche market, you know, can can still. exist. So, it's the same with AI. There. probably will be some things that maybe. AI could do it, but maybe you'd rather a. human do it. Um, even now with with art,

um, my wife, uh, Kelly has written a. children's book and she's looking at. art. She looked at the AI and it was. pretty darn good, but she really wanted. an artist because she wanted something. to be uh to have real meaning, you know, and to be something that people connect. with, you know, for children's books, a. lot of it is connecting with the. pictures. >> Well, I certainly think there's going to. be a lot of value in art that's made by. humans, just like there's value in music. and and even films. You know, that's the. argument that, >> you know, I had Bradley Cooper in here.

the other day and we were talking about. the concern that a lot of these uh. artists that create films, they're. really worried that they're going to. start using digital actors and. >> right. >> and doing everything through. computerenerated AI prompts and films. even being written by AI prompts. >> My my favorite uh Dilbert cartoon is. this woman comes up to Dilbert and she. says, "I'm really worried about the. robots. I'm worried about automation and. I'm worried my son won't get work.

because of the robots. And Dilbert looks. at her and he says, "Well, you know, I've met your son and he could be. replaced by a hammer." Um, always has. been this fear, but you have we have to. have innovation and get around it. There. will be, you know, technical jobs. You. have other jobs. Um, I I don't know. I. guess I'm not I'm an optimist just by. nature. And I uh technology historically. has not destroyed jobs. It's created. jobs and we're way better off. You know, absent the industrial revolution and all.

those in inventions, we'd still be. living 98% of us uh on $2 a day. >> Uh one of the things I want to talk to. you about is uh what's going on in this. country right now. Um well, one of the. big ones, one of the big things that's. in the news is this whole Minnesota. thing. um particularly well a lot of. things to cover but particularly fraud. and that they're uncovering a lot of. fraud that it seems like not only was. there a lot of fraud but a lot of these.

people that were getting a lot of money. from this fraud were donating to. politicians. There's uh I believe $35. million by daycarees was donated to. Democrats in Minnesota last year. Is. that an accurate Is that an accurate. number? >> Let's find out. That's extraordinary. >> That's one of the best things for AI. Extraordinary. >> I saw I saw a good cartoon yesterday. It. was an iceberg and the top of the. iceberg was Minnesota fraud, but the. iceberg beneath the surface was. California. Yes. >> And can you imagine just.

>> Well, they're looking into California. fraud now because of Minnesota fraud. And it's, look, just the homeless thing. alone, just the fact that California. spent $24 billion on the homeless can't. account for where the money went and the. problem just got worse. >> Well, there's a couple things about the. refugee thing. I don't think refugees. should get welfare, and I have a bill to. say they shouldn't get it. If you come. to this country and your church sponsors. somebody to come to it, you support. them. You sign up, you sponsor them, you.

support them. The the taxpayers. shouldn't support them. The other thing. is is we did a lot of the a lot of these. people came on special visas. They. weren't part of the normal as part of. this refugee program, but they got. special visas. The smallies came because. there's perpetual war in their country. and famine. Um, no evidence Minnesota. daycarees gave millions to political. campaigns. Who is this? Yahoo News. You. know [laughter] who's I don't believe. that. >> So, I don't believe they haven't given. any money. >> This is where I got it from. >> Okay. The figure appears to come from a.

viral social media posts, widely shared. video alleging that the daycarees. Here's the problem with this. If this. fraud is as widespread as it is, you're. going to get a lot of people that are. covering their tracks right now. And so, one of the ways to cover the tracks is. to debunk things and to post stories. And I don't think we really know how. much money is missing. >> I think part of the reform is we just. shouldn't give out welfare. This doesn't. mean we shouldn't help people. But if. you're coming to this country and you.

want to experience the greatness of this. country and someone sponsors you, they. should take care of you. But what. happens is most of these charities that. work on bringing refugees in, they have. a big heart. They're bringing them in, but the first paper work they fill out. is signing up for welfare. >> Okay. So, according to our AI search, it. says fact-checking organizations review. campaign finance data and public records. report no evidence that Minnesota. daycare or child care operators donated. anything close to $35 million to. political campaigns. One fact check.

notes that supposed charge circulated. online misrepresents or fabricates. contribution totals and far exceeds what. small child care businesses would. realistically give. But it depends on how much money they're. making, right? When you say small, just. I don't like the way they phrase that. small child care businesses because. you're talking about a large number of. these businesses. And so the total the. all, you know, all told, what is the. number especially compared to large. corporate donors? That's fact, right?

Also, they're listing Snopes as a. source, which I don't like. >> Uh it's a very biased source. >> So I had this debate for years with. McCain. McCain said, "We should admit. all these people who were interpreters. in Afghanistan, all these people that. are interpreters in Iraq.". >> And my response to him was this. If they. can speak English and they're. pro-western, they need to stay in their. country and be the founding fathers of. their country. If the people who speak. English and are pro-western all leave,

then all the crazy jihadists are the. ones going to run the government. So the. part of the reason the Taliban runs. Afghanistan again is 80,000 of the best. people probably came over here that. speak English and have some kind of. knowledge. They should have stayed in. their country and. >> Oh, but isn't that a kind of a. simplistic perspective because a lot of. those people would be dead, you know, we. won we won the war. >> What war? >> Well, >> we won. Well, the war went on forever. and ever. >> We didn't win anything in Afghanistan. I. don't I don't think saying we won the.

war in Afghanistan as you know. >> they won it and immediately reverted to. the stone age when we left but for many. many years when they were coming over. here. >> you can't say we won it. >> what I'm saying is from the perspective. of the people the government that was in. place for the 20 years that we were. there was a moderate government that was. friendly to these people I think them. leaving was them they should have been. the founding fathers of their country so. for example. >> but wait a minute once we left they had. no protection and they were they were in. grave danger. A lot of them became re also a lot of.

them were working with the Americans. We. left them there to die. >> In 1812, the British came back and. attacked us. If we would have all left. and said, "Oh, well damn, they're. attacking us again. We're under attack.". No, they should have fought for their. country. And the thing is is everybody, sure, you can, it sounds like a good. thing, bring them over here. But we. really didn't need another 80,000 people. from Afghanistan. We didn't need another. 80,000 people from Iraq. And we. certainly didn't need another 80,000. people from Somalia. And if they're. coming, they should be ineligible for. welfare. If you come as a legal.

immigrant, you're not supposed to get. welfare for five years. And yet, we know. it's happening. The refugees can get it. immediately. And they just they're on. Medicare refugee status. >> And then they figured out, gosh, they. are they are smart at one thing. That's. those learning center, those luring. centers. Are they smart at those? Well, I mean, once you realize that you can. get a lot of money doing that, there was. also autism diagnosises and then they'd. open up an autism center and. >> and you know, money going over. >> I don't I don't fault people for taking.

advantage of a system that has giant. loopholes in it, especially when you. come over here from a war torn country. and there's a bunch of people that are. already doing it. Like, how do you make. money? Let's do. >> it. Yeah. But somebody had to have. helped them. But you know there are. people there are people saying uh and. this need we need to the whole thing. needs to be audited and I'm also. presenting a bill that will audit the. whole system everywhere but there are. people saying that there are uh either. Chinese hackers as well as Russian. hackers that are also stealing millions.

of dollars. The Somali were so good at. it they were sending hundreds of. millions of dollars you know back. overseas. So I think that we're at the. tip of the unproven. >> I don't know that as well. We need to. ask Snopes. >> No, don't ask Snopes. Put it in a. perplexity. If Snopes gives it, as an. example, ignore it. >> Well, they said it was 700 million the. other day. The reports were $700. million. I think you have to check off a. box when it goes through the airport. And they weren't even hiding that they. were sending it back. So the poor Somali.

sent like $700 million over the last. couple years. So if they had $700. million to send back to Somalia, if. that's true, >> where's that coming from? >> Well, they stole 9 billion and they they. sent. >> Is that real? >> Well, that's the number they're saying. That's why it all needs to be. >> it's been in the press reports. I can't. tell you exactly who, but we need the. whole thing needs to be audited. Cal. California and New York, uh, you know, are going to be enormous problems with.

the same kind of fraud. Yeah. And uh I. think it's virtually a guarantee that we. will find more. But why in the world. would we run a government where we don't. audit this stuff every year, >> right? How did it get to this point? >> We don't audit the Pentagon. The. Pentagon can't match their records. either. >> Okay. But this is the TSA stuff. This is. >> this is a No, but this is you check it. off in a box. >> So for a total of nearly $700 million. over two years. >> Okay. So this we brand actually ran this. through Perplexity. So which is our. sponsor. It's a AI program. It's always.

pretty accurate. Federal officials say. that TSA flagged nearly $700 million in. cash in luggage leaving Minneapolis St. Paul. >> So if you have more than $10,000, the. law says you have to check a box. >> Uhhuh. >> And I think these people voluntarily. checked a box. So they're they're. looking through data TSA forums. They. just added them all up. So I think it's. real. >> So but this is the same thing. This is. this one weird website that we found the. other day, Just the News. So, this. website, Just the News, published a.

report saying uh a report recently that. revealed Transportation Security. Administration has flagged approximately. $700 million in declared US cash. But. the question is like where is just the. news getting this information from? >> I think from TSA, see the. >> Why is it one weird right-wing website. that is reporting this that everybody. refers to when they're talking about. this? >> Nobody's been looking. John Solomon is a. good researcher and he does come up with. stuff. So, uh, have him on. Ask ask him.

where he came up with it. I'm pretty. sure it comes from TSA forums. I don't. think he's making the number up. I think. >> this is an insane amount of money to. send back to Somalia. >> But this is also the gall. You're. stealing welfare money and you're taking. it out of the country and you you are so. in the belief that you won't get caught. You're not smuggling it out. You're. putting on the forum. I'm taking $20. million out of the country today. They've been doing it if it's true and. it seems to be true. They've been doing. it for decades and this is I mean when.

did we start. mass immigrating people from Somalia. into this country? >> You know what I think we should do the. next step would be okay we know how much. is going out of Somalia. Let's look at. every airport around the country and see. where see see who else is uh shipping. money out. >> Yeah I was we tried to find that the. other day too but we couldn't find any. We tried looking at different uh money. that was like how much does a TSA flag. over the entire course of the c, you.

know, the year all over the country. We. couldn't find that data, but that might. just be because nobody's published it. >> Well, I'll ask I can ask and I'll have. my staff. We'll look into it and see if. we can find that answer for you. >> That would be great. Um, one of the. things I was reading recently is. interesting because Minnesota has this. one group of uh, immigrants in the. Somali, but they also have another group. in the Hongs and they have a completely. different result in terms of the amount. of people that are on welfare, the.

amount of people that graduate from. college or high school, uh, the amount. of people that are on Medicaid, all of. them are like radically different. It's. much lower in the Hong Kong community, >> right? which is interesting. It's like, well, what is that? Is it education in. their community? Is it they they don't. from they don't come from a culture that. enables fraud? I mean, you have to. realize Somalia. >> is obviously where you get an enormous. amount of piracy, right? You know, I. mean, this is that's the movie with Tom.

Hanks. Look at me, I'm the captain now, right? That's Somalia, >> right? >> And by the way, they were kind of forced. into that behavior. You know, their. original name, they didn't call. themselves Somali pirates. They called. themselves the People's Coast Guard of. Somalia because the Europeans were. dumping toxic waste off the coast and. killing all their fish and they were. fishermen. So, they started kidnapping. the people that were in these boats and. then, you know, to try to get a ransom. because if you destroyed our fishing. ground and then they went, "Oh, well,

you know what? It's probably easier to. just kidnap people than it is to be a. fisherman.". >> So, the discussion reminds me of a. story. So the Hamongs versus Somalies, why why are 86% of the Somalies still on. Medicaid? Why are the moms doing better? >> So um they used to always make this. argument that Sweden is so great because. it's socialist and that Swedes are all. just doing fine. They're all so happy. Everybody's happy in Sweden. And so they. were talking to Milton Friedman about. that and uh he was over there and they. they were bragging about the country.

about how great Sweden was and. everything and they were attributing it. to socialism. and he looked at them and. he says, "You know, we the Swedes are. very happy. They're also very happy in. Minnesota. If you look at the statistics. of people from Sweden who immigrated to. Minnesota, they're kicking butt. They're. in the top 1%." And it gets back to what. is the argument? Why do Swedes do so. well? It uh many people say it's this. northern Scandinavian work ethic. They. brought it with them and kept it in. their families and it's transmitted.

down. >> They're also not fleeing a war, right? Oh, I mean I'm not saying it's more. difficult. It's more difficult for. refuge. >> They're not coming over here as a. refugee from a war. They're coming over. here as an immigrant who wants a better. life. >> But I will tell you that. So, for. example, there are people who come and. in one generation just kick ass. I'll. tell you the Vietnamese. Yes. The. Vietnamese came. I know a guy, he came. over here. >> He was on an island for a year and he. got one cup of rice. He lost like 60. pounds and he wasn't fat to begin with. He was just nothing. He finally got here.

because he had fought with us or his. brother fought with us. He gets here, opens a transmission business. Three of. his kids are doctors, one's a vet, one's. a pharmacist. They just kick butt in one. generation. There are Nigerians that. have come here. Um, they have dark skin. Everybody says, "Oh, America's racist.". They kick ass. They have the average. Nigerian income is higher than than the. average white income. So, >> they're also famously scammers overseas. in Nigeria. >> Yeah. But what I'm saying, >> you do a great job in tricking people.

>> I think it is. I think it is. It is. It's not so simple as to say racism. keeps people down. It's ingenuity. It's. your family. >> Nigerians are particularly ingenious. when they come into this country. They. >> they're hard workers and you know, but. it's also what we should in an. immigration system select for. Instead. of saying we're going to bring in 50,000. Somali, why don't we look one at a time? And if you want to sponsor a family or. another Somali family wants to them, let's do it one at a time and then let's. not offer them any kind of welfare. And.

if they struggle, you take care of them. when they come over, whoever sponsors. them. >> What do you think they're going to. uncover when they do a full audit of the. just let's just talk about Minnesota. What do you think is going to I mean, what do you what do you envision the. real sca scope of this is? Well, I think. it's going to be out andout fraud. It's. not going to be like just some mistakes. on forums or something. It's going to be. these learning centers that have nobody. coming to them. They just don't even. exist. >> Food kitchens that aren't feeding.

anyone. >> But I do believe the 700 million leaving. Israel, they say it's only a few people, but I believe it's real because I think. it's marked on the forums voluntarily by. the people doing it. So this is. >> 700 million leaving Israel. What do you. mean? >> No, 700 million leaving Minnesota. the. Somali money. I didn't mean to say I was. like a new thing. Yeah. The 700 million. leaving I think is voluntarily checked. off on those forms by Somali. >> Well, that has to be fraud. >> Yeah. So, I think that's I think that's. part of the fraud as well. But I think. that if we audit the system, we're going.

to find organized gangs of Russians and. Chinese doing the same thing. We know. that during COVID there were gangs of. Russian hackers and Chinese hackers. stealing stuff. There were Americans. stealing stuff. But we have to have a. tighter. Our problem is everybody's so. generous. Everybody wants to help people. and you're a grumpy old terrible Scrooge. if you don't want to give refugees more. money. But ultimately you have to give. them less money or you won't get to. this. So let's let's say we gave them. five billion last year. If you give them.

six billion, do you think we're going to. do a better job at rooting out the the. fraud or a worse job? If you give them. more money, they'll steal more money. You have to give them less. So. everybody's looking harder at the money. and you do it. It's the same way with. the Pentagon. If you give the Pentagon, you know, $500 billion more, do you. think they're going to be better with. our money or worse? >> Right? >> So, we got to give less money. So, you. got to give less money to the refugees. And then you have to have more scrutiny. of it. But the interesting question is, if I put forward a bill that says we're. going to audit all the welfare, not just.

the refugee program, we're going to. audit all the cash transfer programs for. every state. Do you think any Democrats. will vote for that? >> Zero. I don't think one Democrat will. vote for that. >> I doubt it. Well, Also, it would be. terrible for their base, >> you know, if they found out that these. are the people that are voting to audit. >> You could, but you could argue you're. actually making it better for poor. people because I'm trying to get rid of. the the Somali stealing it so more of. the dollars actually go to people who. are poor. >> Great to say, but most people think. you're trying to reduce the amount of. money that a hungry family gets. That's.

how they would frame it. And then people. would frame it as you being cruel. Unfortunately, like this is just. >> that's the problem with having the. debate, >> right? >> That the debate is demagogued, right? So speaking of which, so if you like. what do you what was your take on the. border being wide open for the last four. years and not just wide open but they. were encouraging people to come to. America, telling them how to do it and. even helping them get across, giving. them EBT cards, giving them cell phones.

What was your take on all that? I do believe that they understand that. most of the people coming across will. ultimately be voters and that two out of. three will vote Democrat. So, it's all. power politics. Um they say it's about. um you know, humanity and being humane. and all that. It isn't that. It's all. about voting demographics and they want. these people to come in because many of. them are suffering you know through sex. trafficking, all the other crap that.

went along with this mass migration. So. I don't think it's necessarily a best. place to be, but I'd say it's one of the. most extraordinary accomplishments. You. know, as you know, occasion on the other. side with Donald Trump, we don't always. agree on everything, but on the border, I think he did a a fabulous job by sheer. force of personality. He fixed it before. any money was allotted. He fixed it in. the first three months and it went from. whatever the number was down he reduced. it by 98% by he relocated some people. there but by sheer force of personality.

before any money was even spent he he. fixed the problem on the border. >> well it seemed like the Democrats wanted. the problem to exist. >> I think because they want more voters. they don't vote. >> and they were moving people to swing. states and the idea being that the. census only counts human beings it. doesn't count citizens and so you get. more congressional seats. >> so California probably has a couple of. congressional seats that are based on. illegal aliens, you know. So, there's. such a large population that I think you. have about what is about 750,000 people.

per congressional district. There's got. to be one or two congressional districts. that they have that they probably don't. uh they shouldn't be allotted. So, then. the the problem becomes the people are. here and a lot of the people that came. across the border are here illegally. illegally. even though they were. encouraged to be here, they are here. illegally. What do you do? >> Um, well, this is going to shock you. I'm a moderate on this. I actually think. that most of the people that are here. and working lawfully and can pack pass a.

background check, I would give them no. welfare, and I would I give them no. citizenship, no voting privileges, but. you can work and we won't arrest you. >> Okay. Um, no citizenship, but a. potential path to citizenship. I think. it's better just to say the trade-off is. this that you came illegally. Right now. the law says you got to go back and. you'll never get in basically. So the. compromise is you came in illegally, you. just don't get to be a citizen, your. kids will be. Now the new ones, the 8.

million that might have come in last. year, some of them need to go back and. particularly any of them committing. crimes. And I think people are very open. and I think the Trump administration has. sent a lot of criminals back. I think. that's good. >> There's no question they've sent a lot. of criminals back. There's also no. question they've arrested citizens that. they thought were were illegal aliens. Uh they've sent people back that were in. this country most of their lives. They. came over here as infants and they don't. have birth certificates and they don't. have ID. They don't have citizenship. >> See, the compromise I'm offering is.

different than anybody's ever talked. about. Everybody thinks the compromise. has to include voting and citizenship. If in Texas we gave amnesty and let I. don't know a couple million people vote. immediately Texas becomes Democrat for. the next 20 years. So that's what it's. all about. It's about voting. >> Is the problem the census? Because why. are they counting people and giving. congressional seats based on people that. aren't citizens? But if they changed.

that alone and made it so you're. counting people, but you're only giving. congressional seats based on the amount. of citizens. >> We could change the law, but changing. the law is difficult, you know? I mean, you have to end up getting 60 votes, which means we need seven Democrats, >> right? But isn't that a crazy law to. begin with where you you you can get. congressional seats based on the amount. of illegal aliens you have in your area, which is crazy because then encourages. you to bring in illegals so that you get. more congressional seats. >> Y. >> kind of nuts.

And then what do you do? You give those. people Medicaid. You give those people. food stamps and then they're on your. side. >> And it's part of the answer to. immigration that makes it less of a. burden on us is if we base our society. on work. We put a wall around our. welfare system and we don't give it to. people, refugees or immigrants, legal or. illegal, nobody gets any. And you have. to come for work. And what that does is. you're going to select out for people. who work. And that's why I try to say, and not many people on my side would see. this, say this. I think some of the best. Americans just got here, frankly. They.

have good work ethic. They're. hardworking people. They work in our. fields. They pick our tomatoes. They. clean fish. They work in chicken houses. They do a lot of the the dirty jobs in. our country are done by immigrants. So, >> they also came here with ambition. because they want a better life at great. peril, great risk. >> And some of them here are here. illegally. I would have a work program. I let them sign up for a work program, pass a background check. >> But do you think that they should have. to go back home in order to become a. citizen? Like if you could show like if. some guy came over here 20 years ago,

started off as a labor, now he's a. carpenter, he's working for some. construction company, but he's an. illegal, >> right? The trade is you don't get. citizenship at all. Your kids will. I. would just say you don't get. citizenship. That's your trade-off. You. know what? Here's an interesting survey. Let's let's find a thousand people who. are in Texas illegally and do a poll and. say, would you accept this? Would you. accept that you don't get to vote during. your lifetime, but your kids will get to. vote if they were born here in exchange. for not having to worry about being in a.

car accident or being sent back to. Mexico? I'll bet you 80% of the people. here illegally would take work without. citizenship. But you know who wants the. citizenship and doesn't care about work? Democrats. All they care about is the. voting part. See, what I'm trying to. propose is something humane on the work. part. Plus, I think we need some. workers. Yeah. And I think the people. would actually accept it, but they give. up. They don't have to give up the. country and leave and come back, which. it may never happen. They just give up. the the voting. They're not supposed to. vote now anyway. They broke the law to.

come here. >> Well, that's the really concerning thing. that some of them are voting. >> Yeah. And that shouldn't happen. >> And that's one of the craziest things. that California's passed where you're. not allowed to show ID when you vote. So, which is just you're you're. essentially saying you're encouraging. fraud. >> Yeah. That's insane. >> It's insane. It's insane that it passed. It's insane that it's legal. It's insane. that they could say that with a straight. face and have any sort of a weird, you.

know, gaslighty answer as to why that. would be a good thing. >> Yeah. But it sort of shines a light on. the Gulf in our country between, you. know, one party and the other that the. Gulf is so huge that they really don't. want to verify who the voters are. They. come up with they come up with um. arguments that just frankly aren't true. Oh, there's racism in the ID and stuff. Almost all the voter ID bills have said. you can get an ID for free, you know, to. make sure there isn't some sort of. inherent racism.

>> You needed an ID to prove that you had a. COVID vaccine just a few years ago. >> Not me. I didn't get a vaccine, >> but you needed one if you wanted to fly. just a few years ago. And that was fine. with them. >> Go to New York. The hypocrisy is. astounding. You want to go to a. restaurant, you had to have a COVID. vaccine. You had to have your ID. >> It was astounding. >> Um, but the the weirdest one was the. open shipping people to swing states. Just the fact that that's okay and that. they spent tax dollars just flying.

people to these states. >> Yeah. You start to think it's not a. humanitarian project, it's a voting. project. >> Yeah. I mean, it does make sense. Um, but the way how do you feel about the. way the government currently is going. about trying to round up illegals? Like. obviously we have this terrible tragedy. uh terrible tragedy in Minnesota where. that woman was shot. >> Um, which was horrible. I mean, I don't.

know why I feel way worse when a woman. gets shot, but I always do. Yeah. especially in that situation to um I. understand that the officer that shot. her apparently he had been dragged by a. car like really recently, >> right? >> Um which I would imagine also tensions. very high, but it just seemed all kinds. of wrong to me. >> Yeah. I think there is general consensus. about getting rid of gang members,

people committing crimes, rapists, murderers, even among Democrats. I think. when you go to Boston, you round up some. of these really bad people in Boston. that are committing crimes. I think some. of the Democrats are quietly okay with. it. >> I think when you get beyond the. criminals to the next set of people who. some of them are just working our. country, I think it's harder. I also. think that the ICE agents have a tough. job. So do the police. Police are. trained in this and there's a lot of. training on how you deal with. protesters, how you do things. It would.

be better if it were local police than. ICE. But what do you do if it's. Minnesota and the local mayor says, "We're a sanctuary city. We're not. asking anybody whether they're here. legally or not. Someone robs you, someone rapes somebody, somebody does. steals a car, we are a sanctuary city. We're not going to tell you. The only. way you can have police is you have to. bring in the federal police. So, one. thing I would tell these left-wing. cities is if you want less ICE in your. city, why don't you police your city?

>> Yeah, but they don't want to police. their city. You can't force them to do. it if they don't agree with it. And if. the people in the state largely if they. vote against it and if you have a large. percentage of population of illegals. like say California, not just a large. percentage of populations that are. illegal, but a large percentage of. people that think that those illegals. are a part of the community, >> right? >> I mean, LA without Mexicans would be. crazy. I mean, it wouldn't be LA. I. mean, they are an integral part of Los. Angeles. the both illegal and legal but.

illegal as well. I mean, how many. restaurants employ great restaurants in. Los Angeles employ illegal people from. Mexico, >> right? I think the that local police is. better than national police, but the. only way we can have local police is. that local police have to enforce the. law. And so, they are breaking the law. and having an obscure a bizarre way of. interpreting the law to say we are going. to defy the national immigration laws. Um, so I think it would be better done.

by the local cities, but if the local. cities aren't going to do it, then you. have to have national agents going in. And it is a tragedy, but like I say, I. also have sympathy for the people that. are in law enforcement trying to to do a. very difficult job. >> I I do as well, but what was your take. on the actual shooting itself? >> You know, I don't know that I want to go. too much into the specifics of it. because I don't want to pass judgment. like a jury would. Um because really. someone who have to go into and look. specifically at every fact and every.

angle and every angle of camera. So I. don't I don't like to judge criminal uh. things that happen in our country and. say that person needs to go to jail or. that person's innocent. I don't know. that I can make that judgment. And then. am I coloring the situation for anybody. who will have to make that judgment. someday on some kind of jury? >> What? Let's see if we can find this out. How many people have been sent back. during the time of this administration? So, in the year now that this.

administration has been operational, how. many illegals have been rounded up and. sent back? I know a lot of people. self-deported. >> right. >> when Trump got into office because I. think they were probably worried about. being sent somewhere that they didn't. want to be, which was a thing. I've seen. somewhere that it doesn't greatly exceed. some of the deportations under Obama. That the numbers aren't as big as you. think they are. >> Right. But I think the deportations. under Obama, what they're counting is. people that snuck across the border and.

were turned back, >> right? >> Not people who were snatched up at Home. Depot, right? >> And then, you know, brought to some. country that they didn't even come from. >> Bizarre. >> The answer is. >> horrible prison. Um, so we'll pull this. up here. Public estimates, uh, estimates. indicate the Trump administration has. removed on the order of a few. hundred,000 people since returning to. office January of 2025, not millions.

So, here's the problem with that. What. was the numbers of people that were. sneaking in every year? It was kind of. crazy, right? Was because it was 20. million over four years, right? >> Isn't that what the number is? Yeah, I. think yeah, I don't know what the number. is. The numbers are in the millions, but. I think it's hard to estimate because um. some of them didn't get, you know, if. you're not getting caught, how do we. estimate how many right there are? But I. think millions of people came in and I. think it was a tragedy and like I say, you know, it's one of the things Donald.

Trump has been an absolute success on is. controlling the southern border. >> Yes. And it should have been done a long. time ago. But the question is like how. effective is the removal process and is. it do they have a do they have a quota. that they have to meet? Is this why. they're being so aggressive about it? So. it says here October 2025 Homeland. Security update referenced in one. overview stated more than 2 million. people removed from the country in 2025. But that total combined formal.

deportations which were 527,000. with roughly 1.6 6 million people who. voluntarily left or lost status rather. than being physically deported. Separate. NPR report described about 600,000. deportations in 2025 along with about. 1.6 million immigrants. So similar off. by, you know, uh okay, let's see here. Reflecting. broader crackdown. Okay, here's a. question. What what is the estimate of.

the amount of people who came in. illegally between 2020 and 2024? What would you. >> I think I've seen some guesses 8. million. I think 20 is going to be high. But then. >> so 20 million is the exaggeration. >> Oh, I don't know. There's also been. reports through the years of how many. are here illegally. They used to say 11. Now some people say 20, some people say. 30. >> in the whole country. >> Yeah. I don't know what the number is, but I mean that's the estimates vary. widely. >> If 20 million people got in in a year,

that's crazy. >> Well, that would be insane. >> That would be crazy. That means we. doubled what was here and then made it. triple. >> And even 8 million in a year would be a. lot. I would guess that at least. millions came in under the Biden. administration. >> Certainly millions, but how many? Okay, it says from 2020 to 2024, government. data shows roughly 11 to 12 million. encounters in in in italics with people. crossing the US border illegally and. mainly at the southwest border because. many people tried to cross multiple.

times the number of individuals is. slightly lower than the number of. encounters US and also that's but then. you have to factor in the people that. they didn't encounter which were. numerous right so by saying the number. of encounters is the accurate. representation of the amount of people. that got in illegally is kind of crazy. >> Yeah, >> that doesn't make any sense. US Customs. and Border Protection counts encounters. which includes apprehensions between. ports of entry and people deemed. inadmissible at ports of entry. Okay, so.

we don't know. So, but that number was. 10.8 million encounters nationwide. between 2021 and 2024 alone. That's just. encounters. I think it'd be safe to say. that whatever the encounters are, the. actual number is probably higher. Even. if you have, you know, people getting. caught multiple times, it's a lot of. people. Whatever it is, let's say it's 5. million. Let's say it's 8 million. That's a that's a that's way bigger than. the city of Austin snuck in illegally in.

four years because they wanted them to. be here and they didn't want to enforce. it. >> Yeah. So, they say Austin is kind of a. liberal city. >> It is very liberal. Um, what do you have. any of the sanctuary city kind of. policies here or not? >> I don't believe so. I don't think they. do. I mean, there's certainly a lot of. ICE protests. You know, there's a lot of. people that protest ICE. I mean, there. was some arrests here, I guess, yesterday or the day before. I mean, I. think after that woman was shot, I think. unfortunately, well, everything is. unfortunate about it, right? But one of.

the one of the real problems is now ICE. are villains and now people are looking. at them like murderous military people. that are on the streets of our city and. they're masked up, which is also a. problem, right? Because if you get. arrested by a cop, you you're allowed to. ask the cop, "What is your name and. badge number?" And you could film that. cop. If you get arrested by an ICE. agent, you have no such right. They're. wearing a mask. They don't have to tell. you [ __ ] That's a problem. That's a. problem on our city streets, right?

Because you you could also pretend to be. an ICE agent, >> right? >> So, I I I saw this terrible story about. this uh family that was killed where. these guys pretended to be a UPS driver. and they showed up and they made their. way into the house and killed people. because they were dressed up as a UPS. driver. If you could pretend to be a UPS. driver, for sure you could pretend to be. an ICE agent, especially since they're. completely anonymous. So, think about. how many people can get arrested or. robbed or by criminals, right? Because.

you could just have people pretending. there like it's not like it's impossible. to fake their logo, right? It's pretty. easy. Just says ICE, you know, how hard. is that? You could easily imagine armed. gangs pretending to be ICE agents. robbing people. >> Yeah. the I think you could make an. argument when you're working right along. the border or at night with large groups. that there's a lawlessness to the. cartels that hiding the uh the.

identities of ICE along the border. It's. a little harder to make the argument and. I saw this image in a courthouse in. Chicago where it's a big elevator and. the ICE agents all have masks on and. they're arresting people and it's all. women and children in a big elevator in. a courthouse. It's like really I don't. think you really have need to be wearing. a mask. >> They're worried about being doxed and. you know they're finding that happening. >> But our local police have to do that and. they don't wear masks. You see what I. mean? Local police go to the courthouse. to arrest somebody and the uh bright.

lights of the city during or during the. day. >> But again, the local police have to. state their name and badge number. The. local police have always been here. The. ICE element is completely new, >> right? I'm saying or at least at this. scale. I'm saying that for most of the. regular arrests, you probably don't need. to have them wearing masks. That's what. I'm saying. >> The problem is once they don't wear a. mask, then they're going to get doxed. And people have actively doxed them and. threatened their families. >> The local police, too, though. I mean, it's what I'm saying. Loc, >> right? But the police have always been. there. And police are there for a.

reason. If you call the police, if. someone's breaking into your house, you're assuming the police are going to. come. You don't call ICE because on you. don't self-report. You don't say, "Oh, I'm having an issue with some. immigrants." Only call ICE. No, they're. a new factor in the community, right? And they're wearing masks. It's that's a. big difference. It's it's not the same. comparison. Like most people except the. kooky people that went nutty during 2020. after the George Floyd riots that were. like defund the police. Like and boy did. they change their tune as soon as they. started getting riots and their.

buildings burned down and like where's. the police? Well, you [ __ ] defunded. them, stupid. Like people most people. believe that police are necessary. Most. people believe that crime is awful and. you you can't have murderers and armed. robbers roaming the street. You should. arrest them and you're going to need. police officers to do that. But those. same people that believe that might also. believe that once someone is here, they. should be able to stay in this country. and ISIS is operating illegally and we. shouldn't have militarized groups of.

people roaming the streets just showing. up with masks on, snatching people up, some of them US citizens, and shipping. them to countries they didn't even come. from. So that's why they have to wear a. mask. If you want them to do that job, if you want them to be able to deport. 500,000 people over a year, which is a. lot of a lot of people, if that's the. real number, you know, they're going to. be their life's going to be at stake. You're not going to be able to get. people to do the job unless you allow. them to be anonymous. And then again, allowing them to be anonymous creates a.

whole host of other problems, right? >> Where you could have people pretend to. be them. And how would you know who's. who and who's not? >> Yeah. Some people have offered sort of. an in between where they wear badges. that have a number or a a first name on. them such that when you're arrested, if. I think you've abused my rights in. arresting me, Steve, you know, and a. number 324, >> people are going to dox them in. instantaneously. They'll their their. face will be on the internet.

instantaneously. They'll make lists. They'll put it on social media sites. Uh, it's complicated obviously, but it's. also very ugly to watch someone shoot a. US citizen, especially a woman, in the. face, right, >> where it's like I'm not I'm not that. guy. I don't know what he thought. And. again, this is a guy who had almost been. run over, >> but it just looked horrific to me. Did I. mean, when people are say it's. justifiable because the car hit him,

it seemed like she was kind of turning. the car away. It seemed like she was out. of her [ __ ] mind to begin with. That. lady seemed crazy, right? And she didn't. she move there specifically to get. involved in all this? >> Yeah. I don't know. >> She didn't seem mentally healthy, but. does that mean she should be shot in the. head? Is there no other way to handle. this? >> But and then you got these people that. are showing up at these ICE people and. they're blocking traffic and she was one. of them that was doing those kind of. things where they think they're an. activist and they're an agitator. >> Right. But I get back to my my my.

initial sort of argument about having. local police do it. They're not doing. it. But in an ideal world, the way we. fix this and have less ICE agents in. cities where they're having a very. difficult job is the local people do. their job and they're not sanctuary. cities. >> Well, how could you stop sanctuary. cities? >> I'm not sure I can. I'm saying but what. I'm saying is that some of the blame for. ICE being there is the left and their. policies of sanctuary cities. So when. they want to just say, "Oh, we hate ICE. and we don't want ICE in our city.".

Maybe they should be reflecting that ICE. is in your city because you're. disobeying the law and when someone is. arrested and they're clearly not a. citizen, you're not reporting them to. ICE. See, it's this it's defiance. It's. nullification. They have been nullifying. our laws on deportation for years and. years. And so now they have something. they they they really dislike. But who. brought it upon? My point is the left. brought this. It's not an answer, but. it's an explanation that the left is. bringing this to their cities because.

they're refusing to enforce the laws. >> Right. And they don't want those laws. They don't like those laws. They think. that once people are here, they should. be able to stay. >> And you know, this is what my friend Gad. calls suicidal empathy. >> Yep. Follow him. >> And I think there's there's a balance to. be achieved. I just don't know how it. gets done because I I see both. perspectives. I see the perspective of. the people that say, "Hey, there was an. illegal program moving people in here to. get votes, moving people in here to get.

congressional seats, and we've got to. change that. We've got to take those. people that got in and send them back to. where they came from or do something. because if we don't, they're going to. keep doing it if they get in office. again in 2028 and it's going to. accelerate. and you're you're you're. going to have to take away some of the. damage that's been done to a true. democratic system because you've kind of. hijacked it and they kind of have. >> And then I can also see the point of. view of the people that say, "Yeah, but. you don't want militarized people in the. streets just roaming around snatching.

people up, many of which turn out to. actually be US citizens that just don't. have their papers on them. Are we really. going to be the the Gestapo? Where's. your papers? Is that what we've come. to?". So, it's it's more complicated than I. think people want to admit. You know, [clears throat] people want to look at. this as a black and white issue. You. know, if you're a compassionate person. or if you're a pragmatic person and I. don't think that's true. I think it's. both. I think it's. >> but I think the argument needs to be. made again and again and the left needs.

to hear that they have created this. situation by disobeying the immigration. laws, by ignoring the deportation. orders, by not reporting people who are. committing crimes. Now, we're not. talking about some guy mowing lawns. We're talking about somebody who stole a. car, somebody who raped somebody. They. are in jail. So, this isn't the ordinary. working person who's here illegally. We're talking about the criminal. illegals in our country. >> Well, I think most people are in favor. of getting rid of gang members, criminals, murderers, rapists. Most.

people are in favor of getting those. people. >> Right. But the thing is is that the. left-wing cities that are sanctuary. cities are not reporting that. That's. part of the reason why ICE is in. Minnesota and a good examp. >> right. >> pure insanity. >> Yep. >> It's a lot of problems, >> but we solved at least half of them, right? >> Rand, uh, thank you so much. I've been a.

big fan of yours for a long time and. thank you again for being a voice of. reason and for holding him to the fire. during the the whole co thing because. >> you were really one of the only people. that was asking informed tough questions. of him and uh I really really appreciate. that you did that. >> We think he needs to come in one more. time and I have asked him to come in. voluntarily for testimony. Um we're. negotiating with his attorneys. If he. comes in voluntarily, we get him to. testify. He resists. I have subpoena.

power, but it would probably require a. court case to get him to come in. But I. think he needs to fully explain why this. wasn't gain of function and why he was. destroying federal records. >> Oh, the what was the destroying of. federal records? >> Um, emails back and forth saying, "Destroy this after you've read it. That's illegal." And we have evidence of. that. >> I'm sure all that's in the book. Deception. Now, did you do the audio. version of it? >> Um, no. Somebody else did. I wanted my. wife to do it because she's a great.

reader and she helped me write the book. But, um, no, but my wife and I wrote it. together. This is our second book. together. We wrote The Case Against. Socialism a few years ago and then she. and I collaborated and I jokingly say. the boring dry scientific part is mine. If there's anything really interesting. to read, that's my wife. >> All right. Well, it was pleasure to meet. you. Thank you very much. Thanks for. being here. All right. Bye, everybody. >> [music].

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