Joe Rogan Experience #2432 - Josh Dubin

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day, >> Brother Joe. >> Good to see you again. >> Nice to see you, man. >> What's happening? >> Everything's happening. I got I got a. lot on my mind. I got notes today and. everything. >> Beautiful. So, let's kick it off. What. do you got?

No, I I was just um. I was thinking that the more you do this. work, the. more routine the stories would get and. you would start to see fact patterns and. situations repeat. But I'm starting to think the more you. do it, the more nutty and bizarre it. gets. and you find yourself in these. situations where you're like, that can't. be. You got to check that out. So, I I.

have like multiple cases going on where. I feel that way. And um. and they range from. wrongful convictions to why was this. person charged in the first place? Were. you seeking clemency? I mean, um yeah, it's a it's a weird world. Yeah. Your world in particular, the. world of wrongfully accused and. wrongfully convicted people is a one of.

the darkest worlds in the world because. you're taking away a person's freedom. >> Yeah. >> And they do it all the time for. corruption. They they do it because. they're corrupt. They do it because. they're dirty. They do it because they. want convictions. They do it because. they said someone was guilty and then. they just want to [ __ ] lock them up. anyway. You know, I started to read this. um. Malcolm Gladwell just published a new. book called Revenge of the Tipping. Point,

and I'm only like 15 pages in. And the way he starts it out is about I. I think he's going to come back to it at. the end, but I think it's the opioid. scandal. He's leaving it blank until the. end of the book about how when they. testified, the executives of the company. testified before Congress. that they couldn't bring themselves to. apologize or admit that they were wrong. and they keep on using the words our.

drug has been associated with associated. with addiction. And it's almost this so. I'm starting to think that this. inability. to admit. fault. that you're wrong, um that you're sorry. It it it. transcends the legal system. And you. know, I'm starting to believe that the. cases where these cops are out to frame.

someone are far more. um. well, maybe not far more, but they're. less common than the cases where law. enforcement's trying to do the right. thing and a detective has a hunch and. they just get to where they think they. need to be on the evidence by following. the hunch, which is often wrong. So, yeah, it's a mix of all that [ __ ].

>> Yeah. And people don't like to admit. they're wrong ever, especially when it. comes to something as crazy as. pharmaceutical drug company releasing. some opioid that's going to kill a. million people. Like, they can't admit. they're wrong. They almost have to say. things like associated with especially. during hearings. >> Yeah. During congressional hearings, I. guess there's a lot on the line if. there's anything that smells like an. admission, right? >> Yeah. They can't admit it. They have to. not lie, right? Because then they can.

get hit with perjury. So, they come up. with different terms like associated. with. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm interested to see. where he goes with it. I listen to his. podcast a lot. It's actually really. good. Um, some of them are good. revisionist. history because he's he's a curious dude. this Malcolm Gladwell. >> and um you know some of his stuff I. agree with some I don't but I like that. he looks beneath the surface and tries.

to figure out what is motivating people. or what they're tricking themselves into. believing. >> and. I just uh I was watching this man of. scalo bit the other day and he was like. can't you just say I'm sorry. He's. talking about his wife. That's all I. want. And him and this dude are going. back and forth. I forget the guy's name. on the podcast. Some other comedian. And. uh it the bit is so [ __ ] funny. And. and so I just find myself apologizing.

all the time because what's wrong with. just admitting that you're wrong? >> Nothing at all. Good. It's actually a a. show of strength. And people that don't. recognize that, they just believe that. they're never wrong or that they want. people to know they're never wrong or. think they're never wrong. So, they just. don't admit it. They just bury it deep. inside. >> But you find yourself apologizing all. the [ __ ] time sometimes when you're. conscious of it. I'm like, damn, I. apologize a lot. Maybe I do all this.

[ __ ]. >> Well, better to apologize for something. you didn't do than to not apologize for. something you did. Well, I don't know. As. >> long as you mean it. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got to mean it. That. That helps. Meaning it helps. >> Yeah. >> Just saying it just to get it out of a. fight. >> Yeah. That's not good. >> It's not good. >> It's not worth it. >> Um. Yeah. I just finished uh I just finished. this trial on a case that was super.

important to forensic science. It was. actually the namesake of of my center, the Pearl Mutters, uh, the Pearl Mutter Center for Legal. Justice at Cardo Law. So, Ike and Lorie. Pearl Mutter's DNA was stolen by a. neighbor and you know, it's a nutty. story. You could read about it online. I. don't. >> I did read about it online. >> It's crazy. >> [ __ ] crazy. And but I had a um.

I had an expert, a so-called expert on. the stand and there was an email where. they um. it was an unacredited DNA lab. and. someone that worked for him gets the. results of DNA testing, one round of the. results. and she says, "The good news is we have. a full profile. The bad news is it's not.

associated with the promoters." And I. and I said to him in words or substance, um, why would it ever be bad news for a. scientist. if one particular person was implicated. in a crime or not? Aren't they supposed. to just give the facts? And and in a. moment of cander, I think it's one of. the few times this has happened in all. my years doing this, the guy said, you. know, I wouldn't have used those words. and it had no place. And it wasn't an.

email that he wrote. It was an email. that someone that worked for him wrote. And I almost said right in front of the. Jerry, good for you, man. That's super. rare. And um I mean the case is is um I. think it's an important one for forensic. science because their DNA was stolen at. a deposition over some petty [ __ ] It. was about a tennis dispute in their. community and they're lured to this. deposition. and their neighbor.

takes their DNA without their consent. How did he do it? He had um. he had a former crime scene analyst. and some retired um. deputy chief of police from Toronto. because this guy's from Canada come down. and. the former crime scene analyst sits at. the deposition.

and they planned it all beforehand. and They. made sure that they did not handle paper. that Ike Pearl Mutter would handle. And. they made sure that no one touched this. water bottle that Lori Pruter was going. to handle. And they hand him this phony. exhibit. And they had it worked out. before that they would only touch the. bottom corner of it. And they have they. have a water bottle sitting in front of.

Lori Promutter. and they ask questions. about this dispute over the tennis. center. And um. you know when they leave it was treated. like a crime scene and it was like some. vigilante justice type of [ __ ] where. they send all this stuff to an. unacredited lab who then sends it to an. accredited lab and instead of waiting. for the results to come in from this.

accredited lab, the unacredited lab. starts interpreting it and they're. having pressure put on them by this man. that ultimately accused Ike and Lori of, you know, being involved in this awful. crime. >> What was the crime? >> All right, so it doesn't make sense. without context. So here's what happens. Ike Pearlmuter is, you know, the former. chairman of Marvel. He's um very.

reclusive by all accounts. He and Lori. don't have children and they live a very. quiet life in Palm Beach. He was an avid. tennis player. This is about 14 years. ago. Avid tennis player and he um. became very friendly with the woman that. was the tennis pro. She was a single. mother. She would set him up with tennis. games and he became friends with her.

So, she sold real estate on the side. I. mean, this is like a [ __ ] episode of. like Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm at. the beginning, then it like goes off the. rails and descends into the depths of. hell. So, bear with me. >> Okay. So, a man moves into or a man had been. living at or moves into their. neighborhood and he. um becomes friends with this other.

couple who also sell real estate. The. wife sells real estate. And apparently. they approach the tennis pro and they're. like, "We should team up on real. estate." And she's like, "No, it's just. my side hustle. I'm going to do it. alone." So this guy from Canada writes. this memo and in the memo there's all. these accusations about this woman that. she could go to federal prison and she's. committing she could be you know that. that there's bid rigging going on. because they never sent her her um they.

never sent her her tennis pro contract. out for bid. It was just kind of like. nutty stuff. >> just because she wouldn't go into. business with him. I mean, that's our. theory. That's my opinion. And yeah, that was our theory in the case. So Ike. stands up for her. He's a very loyal. guy. Stands up for the people that he, you know, is friends with. And he. thought she was getting bullied. So she. sued the guy for defamation. And Ike and. another resident in this condo complex.

paid for her legal fees. So about a year. later, mail starts to arrive in this community. and it is the most awful [ __ ] you have. ever heard. And it's accusing the. Canadian guy of being a child molester, of being a murderer. It's horrific, twisted sick [ __ ] So, it's about a year. after this tennis center dispute and.

there's misspelled Hebrew words and. Jewish stars all over it. So, this guy. thinks naturally that Ike and his wife. are behind it like they have nothing. better to do. All right. So. because he's so convinced that they did. it and or that they were involved and. he, you know, initially suspected that. other people might be involved, this. guy's going around and swabbing DNA.

off of with a Q-tip off of cars. He's. digging through trash in the condo. community and he's like on this mission. to collect people's DNA. So he calls. them to a deposition about the tennis. center case and that's where this all. went down. So once they collect their. DNA, this unacredited lab claims that. DNA taken off of the hate mail matches.

Lori Permuter's DNA from the water. bottle at the deposition. The problem was that this unacredited. lab didn't wait for the report from the. accredited lab. And that run of the DNA. that this woman was relying on, the. accredited lab discarded it because the. man that actually did the test and. contaminated the machine and he knew it. so he didn't rely on it. So years and.

years and years go by and well after. they knew that Lori had nothing to do. with this. In fact, in 2017, a man got. arrested in Canada and he got arrested. because a package got intercepted at. Homeland at the border by Homeland. Security and it had samples of the hate. mail latex gloves, you know, in the package and it was a. former business associate of this.

Canadian guy and their relationship went. sour and I thought the case was over, you So in 2019, I believe the guy gets. arrested again and there's a detailed. affidavit. So it's clear that this man. is responsible for it. So in any event, in 2016, the um I believe it was 2016, there's an article in the [ __ ]. dealbook in the New York Times saying. that Lori Pearlmutter. DNA is on that hate mail. And then.

there's another one in the Globe and. Mail, which is a big Canadian paper. So, it was a defamation case against this. guy and against this lawyer for Chub. because Chub helped this CHUB lawyer, Federal Insurance, also known as CHUB, helps him draw up the blueprints. for collecting their DNA at the. deposition. So, um it was a super gratifying case. We won a $50 million verdict and was,

you know, he was found liable for. defamation, abuse of process, which is. abuse of the legal process. And, you. know, it's taken Ike and Lori all of. these years to have their name restored. in court. and they've they'd kill me if. I admitted it and it would be a. violation of their confidence and my. professional obligation, but they've. spent an untold fortune. And. you know, the case is important for.

forensic science because DNA is supposed. to be the holy grail. And you can't have. private citizens running around trying. to collect people's DNA without knowing. what they're doing. You could be. leaning on someone. and have good intentions to get results, but if I told you or if I said to Jamie, "Here's my suspect. Take a look at these fingerprints and.

tell me if they match him or her." Or, "Here's my suspect. Here's their genetic. profile. Tell me if it matches.". You don't realize the I mean. sometimes the error rate skyrockets by. as much as 50%. With fingerprints over. 80%. And fingerprint analysts will agree and. they will say, "Yeah, I know that that. happens." And if someone tells me who.

the suspect is. and only who the suspect is, and I'm. comparing it, I think the error rate. goes up. But not with me. Not with me. I. mean, again, it's that phenomenon where. you just can't think that you would be. biased. So, look, the case was super important. because I think it re beyond restoring. their name and you know, it's the. namesake of the center where we do this. work. It also preserves the integrity of.

forensic science and especially DNA. which is really one of the few. um super reliable forms of forensic. science. But even that when put in the. wrong hands or if it's exposed to. subjectivity. and people's belief that they have the. right person, it's vulnerable. And. science shouldn't be vulnerable.

It should be it's either A or B. It's. either yes or no, especially with DNA. This episode is brought to you by. Visible. When your phone plans as good. as visible, you've got to tell your. people. It's the ultimate wireless hack. to save money and still get great. coverage and a reliable connection. Get. one line wireless with unlimited data. and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and. fees included, all on Verizon's 5G. network. Plus, now for a limited time,

new members can get the Visible plan for. just $19 a month for the first 26. months. Use promo code switch26. and save beyond the season. It's a deal. so good you're going to want to tell. your people. Switch now at. visible.com/rogan. Terms apply. Limited time offers subject. to change. See visible.com for plan. features and network management details. So, >> can I ask you a question? Yeah.

>> When you said that her uh the evidence. against her, the DNA evidence had to be. thrown out because the machine was. contaminated. >> Yeah. >> How was it contaminated and how did that. implicate her DNA? >> So, what happens is um when you're I. don't want to go too deep into DNA. analysis, but it is actually. interesting. when you're conducting DNA. testing, the manufacturer of the. machine,

um I think it's called the Power Plex. Plus, they ask you to run what's called a. positive control and a negative control. to make sure that the machine is. correctly calibrated because it's what. it's doing through electrofaresis. um it's shooting out what's called an. electrofaroggram on the other end so. that you're able to. um. you're able to do what they what they. what's referred to as calling alles. So.

you're recalling you know a chromosome. pairing at a specific genetic marker. right so and they called them there's. various different lossi or locations. where there you either have two alals or. one you get one from your mom one from. your father one from your mom one from. your dad and sometimes the one from your. father might not show but your mothers. will show but there'll be two alals at.

most at a specific location. So they. want to make sure that the machine is. working properly. So the manufacturer. has the lab analyst every time you do it. run a positive control. Meaning that. you'll put a solution through the. machine and it should on the other end. give you very specific results. And he accidentally. pipetted or took the solution from her. DNA mixture instead of from the positive.

control mixture. and put that through. the machine. So when he was running the test, her DNA. is already mixed in there. >> Oh, >> but he realized he made a mistake. So. when he issued his report, he didn't. rely on that run because and when I say. run, it's another. um. it's another you'll run the DNA on. different occasions and sometimes on.

different dates because you want to make. sure that your genetic profile will. never change. My genetic profile will. never change. So when you were looking. at somebody's genetic profile, it should. be consistent. So when he saw that, wait. a second, the first run of this doesn't. match the second and third or or the. fourth, he realized he made a mistake. but without having the lab analyst. that's doing the interpretation,

you know, weighing in on the results and. you're antsy to get an answer and you're. leaning on an unacredited lab saying. interpret the results, interpret the. results. Money's no object. There's an. email that said that, you know, instead. of waiting, she relies on this run of the DNA and. you know, then what happens happen? But. at some point, this Canadian guy came to learn what.

actually happened and kept on going. >> and kept on going and kept on going and. there was evidence that he wanted. hundreds of millions of dollars from my. clients. >> You know, I think what turned out to be. a shitty situation for him because no. doubt getting hate mail like that has to. be disturbing and upsetting to the. family. Did it turn out that he had any. sort of relationship with the Canadian. man who was sending him the hate mail? >> Yeah, that was his former one of his. former business colleagues.

>> who he he had a vicious falling out with. and he kept it from everyone. So I think that the inference in my. opinion the inference is that at some. point and and in fact there's an. allegation in the hate mail which says. you were involved in the murder of these. two people. He accuses this man in Canada months. after the hate mail began to arrive of. spreading that rumor. So I believe that. he knew it was him the whole time and at.

some point I believe he was trying to. shake the promoters down. >> Uh. >> so. >> so he wanted money from them otherwise. he was going to go public. >> and he went public. >> Uh how much did he request? >> You know look there's an article in the. Globe and Mail saying that he wants $600. million. There was an article he admitted on the. stand that it was a hundred million. his. his um. >> so he was just trying to get paid.

>> his Well, that's my opinion. >> Yeah, that was the jury's opinion. >> What did he do? >> He was some embattled in my opinion an. embattled. um businessman in Canada. He had like a. executive recruiting company, but there. was all sorts of public information out. there that he was worked on the Toronto. Harbor Commission and then been involved. in what the press called cloak and. dagger campaigns where he was wasting. public funds. So, you know, he bragged.

about all the lawsuits he's been. involved in. So, I think the jury saw. through it and um. you know, look, again, sometimes you become really close with. your clients and that's not always a. great thing. Um I'm guilty of that a. lot, but these are wonderful people, reclusive, they give most of their money. away to charity. And to watch these. people get dragged through the mud for.

over a decade. And you know, there was. evidence in the case that this this is. interesting. because I initially fought this. on the day the first day of jury. selection. They had been invited to go. to Mara Lago and sit at the president's. table for a Halloween party. It was just prospective jurors filling. out questionnaires. So the defense and it was really I think.

the attorneys for Chub or for the lawyer. that worked for Chub wanted to introduce. evidence. They got photos of the party. and they wanted to introduce this. evidence and there was one day during. the trial where they went to the White. House because one of their close friends. um was appointed to be the ambassador. for India. and they used that against them during. the trial and I fought it tooth and nail.

and then I finally said, you know what, [ __ ] it. I'm gonna let it come in. I. stopped fighting it. And I um. I knew that the jurors on their. questionnaire filled out who they. publicly admired most and least. Two of. them wrote they admired the president. the most. One of them said they admire. him the least. So, I really had to speak to that juror. and say during my closing argument, you.

know, what they're doing here is they're. trying to say that Lorie Pearl Motor's. reputation doesn't matter, that she. can't emote and suffer humiliation or. public ridicule, and that you should. disregard her because of who she's. friends with, who she votes for, the. fact that her husband was came here and. literally with $200 in his pocket and,

you know, ascended. It's the the weird. paradox about success. You know, you get. there and people are like, "Oh, these. [ __ ] rich people, but these are like. they represent the best in all of us.". Um Lori Pruter with her free time. started to work at the gift shop at NYU. and because she liked the feeling of. selling flowers and little gifts to. people that were going through terrible. times and she ends up becoming a board.

member at NYU and they give $50 million. to start the Pearl Mutter Cancer Center. I mean who among us wouldn't want to. aspire to that? And they were trying to. say but she doesn't matter. At one point. she was asked the question, you know, because with defamation your reputation. is on the line, right? And you have to. argue reputational damage. And they said, well, isn't your. reputation bound up in your husbands? And they said this to a jury of like. four or five women. And I I thought,

what a dumb [ __ ] thing to say. In my. opinion at least, it was like and I I. was able to say to them during the. closing, they're saying she doesn't. matter and that she does she's not her. own person, her reputation. So, it's. like these little victories. um help restore my faith in the system. because if billionaires can get awarded. $50 million, which is what they got awarded, I think.

that that's the jury saying her. reputation mattered. And not only did a reputation matter, but it mattered to the point where um. you can't just tear somebody down when. you know the facts and which just seems. so insane that he would pursue that. I. mean, the guy literally owns the Ike. ProMutter Center for Legal Justice and. you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to test. that. >> I'm gonna test that justice and just.

[ __ ] my way." I mean, the the the. irony of that is that the center was. born out of their experience in this. case. >> Really? >> Yeah. The center was born out of at one. point I was offered this role to start a. new postconviction center up until four. years ago, five years ago, I did work at. the Innocence Project. And when I was. offered this position at the same law. school at Cardo Law where the Innocence.

Project was born, they said, "If you get. that role, the Pearl Mutters, we're. going to fund it for the first 10 years. because we realize that if you're. wrongfully accused in this country of a. crime you didn't commit, if you don't. have the resources to fight it like we. did, that you're really in trouble." And. for them to have that kind of insight. while going through this. uh it, you know, it's it's remarkable. I'm indebted to them for life. I mean,

they've become like surrogate family to. me. But yeah, the center was born out of. their experience in this case. >> So good came out of it. >> Does the guy have the money to pay them? >> I don't know. I don't know, but I'm. gonna find out. about to, you know, we have posttrial. motions that the judge has to decide and. then, you know, once we get hopefully we. get the judgment entered, um Ike is not. the guy to pick a fight with. He was.

standing up for his wife's honor really. And um. look, sometimes you pick a fight with. the wrong person and you what did I say? you [ __ ] around and find out. >> There's a lot of people that [ __ ] around. a lot until they find out. And it sounds. like this guy might have been one of. those people. >> I don't know. I don't know. I mean, >> perhaps. >> Perhaps. >> Allegedly. It just seems like there's. people that are involved in conflict.

their whole [ __ ] life, man. And they. never get out of that pattern. >> I don't get it. >> Yeah. Unhealthy people. They develop a. pattern. They develop a pattern of. thinking and behaving, you know. >> Well, I don't know if it's the empath in me, but I try to see like what are you. thinking? Why can't you realize I've. I've gone down the wrong path? Let me. course correct. >> And you just end up.

with theories. I mean, look, I um I can understand why a former. detective. might be concerned about liability. So, they can't just say, "Well, here's. what I was up to all this time." I guess. I can understand that, but. I can understand the thinking in not. just saying.

I've gone down the wrong path. And some. people start to believe their own lies. I think some people start to believe. their own. theories. Um, human psychology is like. it's vast and abstract and so. complicated on. >> it and varies varies from individual to. individual what they can justify what. they can sort of rationalize in their. head.

Look, I told you at the beginning that. there's only been like a handful of. cases where I was like, "Yeah, that. can't be. There's some there's got to be. something missing from that story that. you're not telling me." But what watch. this. two officers in 1998 were on patrol in. New York City in Brooklyn on Pickin. Avenue. gunfire breaks out.

and literally as they're rolling down. the street, the gunfire breaks out. One. of the officers looks to his left and. sees the muzzle flash of the gun. that was used to kill this young man, Trevor Vieira. He exits the patrol car, draws on the. man, and says, "Drop the gun.".

The guy's pointing the gun still that. was used to shoot Trevor Vieiraa. and there's a tense moment. and this officer has testified that. there was a 14year-old girl in the area. or he otherwise would have just shot the. guy. So he literally catches the murderer. with the gun smoking in his hand. Why.

you've used that expression over the. past two decades? Oh, it's a smoking. gun. This is the [ __ ] smoking gun. He finally drops the gun. His name is. Eduardo Eduardo Rodriguez. He's put in handcuffs. And. you know, you get documents as you're. going through the discovery process. during postconviction. You get it from. the prosecutor, from the police, and.

there's a radio call. by a a sergeant, a detective that says. per in custody, contemporaneous with the arrest. They. arrest two men. one guy standing next to. him and the guy that Eduardo Rodriguez. that shot the gun. He's placed under. arrest. He's brought to the precinct. and he's delivered into the arms of no.

other than one of the most corrupt, sadistic. detectives to ever work homicide in. Brooklyn. In my opinion, Lewis Garcella. No. Why should that name sound familiar. to you or to others? Because Lewis. Garcella is the guy that framed Derek. Hamilton, who's the deputy director of. the Pearl Mutter Center for Legal. Justice at Cardoza.

Lewis Garcella and his partner, I think. his his name is Shiml or Chiml. Kimmel, it's C H I L. Um, these guys were so notorious for. framing people for murders they didn't. commit. that there have been 21 cases. where people's convictions were vacated.

where they were the lead detectives. 21. Derek's is one of them. So Edar Eduardo Rodriguez is delivered. to the precinct smoking gun in his hand. and a couple of hours later. he's brought to the home of Nelson Cruz. who was 17 years old at the time 16. turning 17. And. it's the story of these cops that while.

he was in the precinct. that he was yelling and screaming and. tearing the place up, I didn't do it. Uh. Nelson Cruz did it. He shot him and ran. and dropped the gun and I just picked it. up. The officer that arrested him never saw. Nelson Cruz. He didn't see someone shoot. and drop a gun. The story is literally. ludicrous. Nelson Cruz is arrested and charged with.

murder. So when I heard the story, I was like, there's no [ __ ] way that this is what. happened. You're leaving something out. And I then read the trial transcript. There's another guy that shows up at the. precinct named Andre Bellinger. And. Andre Bellinger. says, "Yeah, I saw Nelson Cruz do it, too.". And he shows up at the precinct and he's.

told what kind of gun was used. He's. told that Nelson Cruz is the suspect. And then he picks him out of a lineup. after being told, "We're going to put. Nelson Cruz in a lineup.". All three of those things are gross. violations. of um. investigatory practices and this has. been established for decades. So.

this guy ends up. put on trial. and. they somehow claim. that they don't have um. they can't locate this guy that is. saying that he witnessed the crime. They. can't locate him. He's not around to be located.

So this the the person who had the gun. in his hand that is shooting the gun who. they believe who who says Nelson Cruz. did it at Nelson Cruz's trial. He's. nowhere to be found. Wouldn't you think that the prosecutors. would put that man, Eduardo Rodriguez, on the stand so he could explain how he. picked up the gun? He could explain, "What did you see? You saw Nelson Cruz.

do this?" And he ran and dropped the. gun. And he's never put on the stand. It's like a three-day trial. The only. person put on the stand that claimed to. have been a witness is this guy, Andre. Bellinger. So, I mean, some people have like bad luck, shitty luck, or cataclysmic [ __ ] um. apocalyptically bad luck. And Nelson. Cruz just happens to have, you know, won.

that [ __ ] lottery. Nelson Cruz ends up before a judge. about eight years ago and about six. years ago. and it's a postconviction hearing. and this guy Andre Bellinger who claims. that he watched Nelson Cruz do it. um is outed as a liar.

There are eyewitnesses that were with. him that night who said he wasn't at. that murder scene. He was like blocks. away with me. He was outed as a liar on so many. different occasions. It becomes like it. would become laughable if it wasn't so. serious. After these postconviction proceedings. during which 20 some odd witnesses were. called, the courtroom is packed on the. day of the decision because the. expectation amongst the press and in the.

legal community is Nelson Cruz is about. to get exonerated. this judge had exonerated people that. had been um investigated by Lewis. Garcella. and she's acting kind of weird and. erratic. and she rules against Nelson Cruz. and contradicts herself on multiple. occasions. and this is in 2019.

and we later or 2020 and we later. learned. She never takes the bench again. and she resigns because she has advanced. stage Alzheimer's disease. >> Oh Jesus. >> I have an affidavit. that from an investigator that says her. husband said that she had been suffering. from these symptoms for years before. There was a judicial. um complaint filed because she wasn't.

showing up to court. Uh there's a. ProPublica article about it about this. whole debacle. and you know it's stories like this and. so the promoter center for legal justice. um is working on the case and you know. thankfully we're before the conviction. integrity unit in Brooklyn and it's led. by a really special guy Eric Gonzalez is.

the district attorney in Brooklyn and he. listens to these cases. He has a real. conviction integrity unit. So, I'm. hopeful that once we present the case to. them um that we'll get him some relief, but to think about he was parrolled in. 2023. He's a mess. He walks around nervous. He's got terrible anxiety and paranoid. A wonderful guy. And he's he's so stone. cold innocent. And you just wonder how.

and why this [ __ ] can happen to someone. And you know, it's like the the perfect. constellation of like you got this these. crooked detectives who have already been. found to have ruined a bunch of people's. lives. You have the smoking gun found in. the hand of the murderer who. mysteriously disappears. And if you're wondering, so why why do. they believe this guy? How does he go to. the precinct. and he raises hell and says Nelson Cruz.

and I picked up the gun even though. there's no evidence of that. What would. be your guess? >> Well, he's probably some sort of a. witness and something else. >> It was pretty well known back at the. time that Lewis Garcella, other. detectives in Brooklyn homicide and all. the burrows had informants. I mean, that's my best guess. Why else. would you just believe? And they they've.

gone as far as to try to discredit. their own and say, "Well, Potti must not. have seen him drop the gun and run.". This guy has been consistent throughout. He hears the gunfire, looks, sees the. muzzle flash. He literally witnesses the. murder. So, you know, there was an F there was a. joint FBI task force with the NYPD going. at the time. So, yeah, they relied on. informants. Where's what's the state of. the guy who actually committed the. murder currently?

>> He's out. >> Jesus. >> He's running around the streets. Who. knows where he is? >> So, if your guy gets exonerated, does this guy get tried? >> No, that very rarely happens. that fair. I mean, >> so that guy just committed murder and. he's free. >> Oh, that's happened. You know how many. times that's happened to anyone that's. done postconviction work? >> So you But you don't even think that's a. possibility. You're you're just. dismissing it like, "No, the the.

murderer is going to go free.". >> Yeah. Uh because. in order for me to. um expect that that would happen will be. to defy logic as I know it in this. world. Because think about what happens. if a municipality. um admits we did something horrible and. it was a mistake and we did the wrong. thing. um. there's going to be a civil rights.

lawsuit. I mean, look, to Brooklyn's. credit with this DA, they have done that. and done the right thing. But in terms. of then going after the person that they. think did it, you know, it's 20 almost. 26 and this crime happened in 1998. It's. 30 years later. to be able to reassemble. the witnesses and some of whom are. probably dead or hard to find. But it's very rare that.

once there's an exoneration and you're. able to point to who the true killer is. Very rare that um. law enforcement will go after the person. that defense council has established. actually did it. >> That's insane. >> Is it? >> Yeah. Because if the defense council has. ruled that this other guy is innocent. and that the police officer did see the. guy execute that person, how do you not.

try that person with murder? >> Now you're you're stumbling into the how. could that the the how could that bees. of our legal justice system. >> It just. it doesn't happen. I mean, Clement. Clementia Giri, who I've talked about. before, who was exonerated from death. row. Um, you know, if there's any doubt about this. phenomenon of children killing their.

parents, I think that that was laid to. rest a few days ago. It happens happens. a lot more than than was recently. publicized. You know, the real killer was the. daughter of this of her mother and her. grandmother. Clementia Giri gets, you. know, charged, put on death row, and in. the middle of his retrial, you know, she. all but confessed on the stand to me, they have her blood mixed with her. mother's blood at the crime scene. And. in a trail leading to the bathroom where.

the killer cleaned up, she confessed on. six or seven different occasions, not. under duress, not to law enforcement, to. various people around town. She's. roaming the streets that the day that. Clemente got exonerated, I I you know, like I I said, you know, I think I might have quoted. like Jim Morrison. And I was like, there's a killer on the Rome and she's. in Kentucky and you better go get her, you know. And they were like, ah, objection, you know. But yeah, it.

happens. I mean, it's my belief that. she's. she's stone cold guilty and they haven't. gone after her. And that happens a lot. I mean, look, the word exoneration is. thrown around, but. it's like Derek's case is rare. He was. declared actually innocent. Sometimes the conviction gets vacated. Sometimes it um. you know they decide not to retry the.

person and agree to time served. But. you're pushing a massive boulder up a. steep hill every time. Like Nelson Cruz. should not have to carry this weight. around anymore. He's had other lawyers. that have done a great job representing. him. You know, we've come in now. >> How much time did he wind up doing? I think 26 years. >> Jesus. >> Yep. Yeah. It's horrifying. >> Jesus.

>> I mean, when you've done so much time. that you've parrolled out and are still. trying to prove your innocence. >> Jesus. Oh, I I hate to give you indigestion. I. don't. I mean, but it's this is like. I'm past tears at this point. I'm I'm. more like. we just got to keep going and keep. fighting. And when you get these little.

victories here and there, like we've had. a few releases recently. that were super encouraging. where you're able to get people a second. chance where you're able to, you know, get get it to the point where they could. even though they didn't do it, plead. guilty. We just had a a release. Um she. was actually my co-consel in the. Clementia Giri case. Mari Palmer and her. client plead guilty. But we believe he's.

innocent. He did it to get out. He had. done 24 years and he'd had enough. But. for her to get it to the place where he. could even plead guilty. after serving all that time, you know, innocent people plead guilty all the. time. >> Yeah, they do. Just to get a lighter. sentence. >> Yep. It's a dirty business you're in, buddy. Filthy. It's filthy. And it's got all these.

tentacles. because if you're doing postconviction. work, um. it's not just the wrongfully. accused and convicted, it's also, you. know, we do clemency work, commutations. and pardons. we um. you start to wade into the the human. mess. and you see that like people have made.

mistakes. and are worth a second chance. What they. do with it is up to them, but some of. the stuff you can't explain. Some of. these prosecutions are political. Look, I'm dealing with a case right now. that's like at the intersection of. wrongful conviction. and what the [ __ ] are we doing with our. immigration policy in this country?

And I don't even want to mention his. name because I don't want to, you know, or the state because I don't want to. sacrifice the good work that we're doing. to get him a public hearing. But. I can say this much. This is a guy from Albania that. came to this country in the early 70s. and had to sit in a refugee camp in. Italy. for damn near a month.

under horrid conditions just to come. here to try to live a a life. He's in his early 20s. He's at a gas. station. He has a $100 bill. for $5 of gas. He goes into the gas. station. The guy takes the $100 bill. He. doesn't have change. He says, "When you get $5, come back. I'm going to hold on to this $100 bill.".

And they get into an argument. He won't give him back the $100 bill. So. he leaves and goes to get his brother. and he tells his brother about it. They return to the gas station. They have a gun in the backseat of their. car. His brother tells him, "You stay. here. I'm going to go in. and try to talk some sense into this guy.

and get your money back and give him. five bucks.". My client's sitting in the car and. gunshots erupt. He goes in the back seat, gets the gun, goes around to the side, comes into the. gas station, it comes into the um you know the you. remember back in the 80s where they you. would go in to pay. >> Mhm. >> And there would be like a little a. little front desk area.

>> Mhm. And the gas station attendant is. holding the gun and he looks to his left. and his brother is bleeding out. The gas. station attendant had shot his brother. in the stomach. Still holding the gun shaking, he shoots. him one time dead. Shoots the gas. station attendant dead. His brother miraculously survives. and he's put on trial for murder.

And. He. goes to trial the first time. Remember, he's in his early 20s and it's a hung. jury. Most of them are in favor of a. quiddle. Goes to trial a second time and. gets convicted. The judge must have seen that this was. damn near as close to self-defense as it. gets. He got sentenced to like four to. seven years. He was out in just under. four years.

He had become an accomplished boxer in. prison. He's lived the last 51 years of his life. without so much as a traffic ticket. He goes to New York, joins the union as a super for. buildings. He pays taxes, social security, pays into his pension, builds a life for.

himself, has five kids, eight. grandchildren, and he's living in upstate New York, leaves the country a couple of years ago. to go to Albania to see family, comes back and gets stopped. at the border, somehow. is not detained at the border, but they. start removal proceedings on him. >> Why? >> Because. >> is he a citizen at this point?

>> No, he's not. But he's a green card. >> Yeah, he's a green card holder. This. episode is brought to you by The. Farmer's Dog. Recipes, cooking methods, even portioning. It all makes a. difference for your dog's health. And. The Farmer's Dog is pouring a ton of. resources into new research studies. They've also just started sponsoring a. residency program at the University of. Tennessee's College of Veterinary. Medicine, which aims to contribute new. research and help shape the future of. pet health. You can see their dedication.

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by the way, I want to mention the state. There are self-defense laws that did not. exist then. Many states have stand your. ground laws. I think under different. circumstances. He doesn't even and if. the laws had evolved, he doesn't even. get charged. I mean, you see your. brother shot and the facts are not in. dispute about this. I've researched it. exhaustively, you know, isn't that the type of person we want. who has contributed to this society for.

51 years and built a family? >> What What happened with the brother and. the attendant? They got into an argument. and he called the attendant called him. some al some some slur against Albanians. and they started to argue and he just. shot him in the stomach. There's this isn't even it's not in. dispute at all what happened. and. there's a law that if you committed a. violent crime you're removable. But for.

51 years, he was not removed from this. country and he lived here um as a green. card holder and he paid taxes and he. built a family and a life and now. >> So this removal was all during the Biden. administration. >> No, unfortunately it was during the. Trump administration. >> But you said it was two years ago. It was. when he was first. um when he was first asked at the.

airport. and they flagged him. I believe it was. during the Biden administration, but no. enforcement action was taken. It was. during the current and this isn't an. indictment of the president. This is. just during the current administration. that they started removal proceedings. against him to try to have him removed. from the country. So, did did they just. go through all the old cases and find. out anybody that had any sort of a. violent offense? >> I believe I believe that that's what.

happened. I nobody knows, but that's. what I believe happened. So, again, I. made the mistake or maybe it's a virtue. at this point um of getting to know this. family. And. um I I've met every sibling. There's two. boys and three girls and they're. literally like some of the most. wonderful people I've ever met. I wish I. didn't like them as much as I did. And I. stay in close contact with um one of the.

I mean I guess I could give first names. with with one of the sons Anthony and. his sister Joanna. and to see the love. that they have for their father and the. the fear that they're living under that. this man could get deported and sent to. Montenegro. >> Why Montenegro? >> Because that's where you you get sent if. you're Albanian, if you have Albanian. citizenship. >> Why Why there though?

>> I think that that's the protectorate of. Albania at this point. >> Okay. So, um, and to watch them, they went to one. removal proceeding and the judge, I have. the transcripts of the proceeding, and. the judge is like saying to the. prosecutors at one point, he said, "What. are you doing here?" He starts speaking. Albanian to my client. And look, I don't know immigration law. that well, I'm not an immigration. lawyer, but I spoke to the immigration. lawyer and he's like, "Look, I'm afraid.

that they're going to take him. I mean, ICE is waiting outside courouses. and they're going to take this guy. He's. in his 70s, take him away from his family and his. grandchildren. So, again, you don't just see these. wrongful conviction cases, you see cases. that are like, "This man has built a. life." And if you start to get beneath. the surface and you see the pain and. agony and fear that people are living, um, it's it's they're living it dayto day.

We were able to get a delay into. February for his removal proceeding. So, I'm now trying to get him pardoned. because if he gets pardoned, there's no. basis upon which to remove him. And, you. know, we have a team at my center that's. working on it. And you want these are. the kind of people you want to fight for. once you get to know them. So, I um. there's like I don't want to just.

tell nightmare after nightmare. But the. reason why it's important, I think, for. people to hear this is it's not just. what you're seeing on TV or what you're. hearing about. I mean, what basis do we. have to remove a grandfather who's lived. here for 50 years and contributed to. this society and paid his taxes and paid. into social security and was a part of a. union and just like I'm looking for a. flaw.

I really am. I'm looking for like a. reason for me not to like them and I. just get drawn in more and more. They're. just wonderful people and these are the. kinds of things that are like worth. fighting for. I think what's going on. with ICE is one of the things that's. going on with quotas for speeding. tickets and things along those lines is. that they have numbers that they want to. achieve and they've openly talked about. this that they want to remove a certain. amount of people per week. And when they.

do that, I think everything's on the. table. Then they start showing up at. Home Depot instead of like looking for. gangbangers and looking for criminals. and cartel members. They they go to. whatever's easiest pickings so they can. get numbers up. There's um Do you know Ed Calderon? Do. you know who he is? >> Um he's uh he worked uh he was a Mexican. military guy who uh now is an American. citizen, but he reports extensively on.

the cartels and just was telling me some. horror stories about ICE raids. And one. of them was they took this guy who had. been brought over here when he was a. baby but didn't have American. citizenship. His family, you know, came. over here illegally, lived here for 20. years, can't speak Spanish. They deport. him, send him to Tijana, >> can't speak Spanish, >> can't speak Spanish, does not speak. Spanish. He is essentially an American. citizen. He just never lived anywhere.

else. He just doesn't have the. paperwork. He's not a criminal. They. sent him over to Tijuana and now he has. to live in Mexico. He He doesn't know. what the [ __ ] to do. He's on the. streets. Has no idea. He doesn't have. any money. I Yeah, I don't understand. I wish that. there was it's it's sort of a black box. immigration um. in terms of what is. what the policy exactly is and why do.

you want to continue. this narrative that seems to be again. more of a human rights issue than a. political issue? Like what is the. endgame here? The endgame is to get as. many illegals out as they can because so. many were brought in over the last four. years. >> Well, that's that's a fair argument. I understand that. >> But do we want to be getting rid of 70. year old men that.

>> No. >> Really? I mean, I got to tell you, I have an older brother, and if someone. had did something like that to him, I. can't tell you I wouldn't have done the. same [ __ ] thing. Of course, almost. anybody who has family would say that. Go and you see your brother shot and you. know the whole circumstances surrounding. it. >> Yeah. >> So I don't I just don't and and it's not. these immigration judges I've come to. learn don't have much flexibility. You.

know they're hard and fast statutes. about whether or not someone is. considered removable. And. you know, my appeal is really to the. prosecutor is like, why are you doing. this? But then they're following orders. from someone above them that's telling. them, this is your case. You're assigned. to it. Do the best job you can. So that. kind of [ __ ] just rolls downhill, unfortunately. >> Yeah. And and you know, I try not to I try not.

to wear this um. for my own mental health. I'm trying to. keep. the empath in me. in check a little bit more because. but sometimes it's difficult like. Nelson's case, this case that I'm. talking about. And the only reason I'm. not using names in that case is I don't. want to alienate. There's great people. in the state that this happened in which.

wasn't New York that I think actually. care and have shown that yeah, this is. doesn't seem right and we want to make. sure that you get a public hearing. Um. I'm confident that we will before. February and I like my chances if we do. because I think that the story he's. worth pardoning, he's worth saving. Um, but you know, I don't I don't. understand. I mean that's what I what I meant by. this human mess. It's like I wish there.

was a more transparent process of how. and why people kept pardons. certainly on the state and on the. federal level. I don't get it. Well, I mean, the the nuttiest thing is. that the president can pardon people. that you could just decide. because you're the president or the. governor, you can just decide this. person um I like them. It's an it's an. amazing um.

responsibility. and. it's kind of an awesome power to have. and how you go about exercising it. becomes. challenging, right? Because. >> well, it gets real weird. Like how about. during the Biden administration when. some of them Biden clearly didn't even. sign the pardons. It was all autopen and. he had the most pardons of any president.

ever. So you have political influence, you have people that would like to get. someone pardoned and you know someone. inside. You think you can make this. happen? Well, he's pardoning 9,000. people. [ __ ] it. Let's just throw that. one in there. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think he's I don't. really know the autopen issue that well. I don't know if he saw those, didn't see. them. I don't know what. it's like organized chaos for for every. presidency.

>> You know, Bill Clinton pardoned people. at the end of his terms that. [ __ ] bananas when you look at them. Biden did it with his son. You know, the. >> Biden did it with his with family. members that weren't even accusing. >> Preemptive pardons. I don't even know. that that was a thing before. >> It never was. He did it with Fouchy. preemptive back to 2014. >> Yeah. Listen, I don't Some of the. pardons that the current administration.

issues are like, "Good for him.". >> Yeah. >> Others are like head scratchers and. you're like, "What the [ __ ]. >> right?". >> But like I, you know, what makes. one person deserving and another not is. a difficult thing to understand. Like I. have. I've been to the White House. I've I've. advocated for pardons. It's a. frustrating experience because you know.

that there are thousands of people doing. the same thing. and you try your best to say this is why. this case means something but where it. goes from there is hard to understand. I. think I have tremendous respect for and. admiration of the current pardons are. Alice Johnson because she's been there. before. You know, she was actually. incarcerated and pardoned by the. president and she's now in that role as. the pardons are. >> Who was she pardoned by?

>> President Trump. >> Wow. During his first term. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And she's um. >> What was she wrongfully accused of? >> Some drug offense. and she did a ton of time and she's gone. on to become this amazing. um. not just human being but advocate for. people to get second chances and he. designated her the pardons are now I. think between her and getting to the.

president and making her case for. pardons is difficult because there's. layers of influence in between. but you know I have I have cases for. them right now that um have very. prominent people backing them and you. know you would hope that they end up. you know. on his desk and seeing um. getting some relief. I have one client.

that I know Mike Tyson. is backs him publicly privately. He was. a childhood friend of his. His name is. Spencer Bowens. And um you know, he's one of many people that. were sentenced under these crazy. regimes of like let's weigh. weigh the drugs.

So what's heavier, crack or cocaine? >> Cocaine. >> All right. What's heavier, heroin or crack? >> Heroin. >> All right. So, they start to weigh and. what's more destructive? Who [ __ ]. knows? Crack was pretty damn. destructive. >> Yeah. And you know they Spencer's been. in prison for more than three decades. on and he would have been out if these. nutty drug laws didn't exist. And if.

they applied retroactively since they. have been abolished and he's a guy. that's sitting in there and I speak to. and I start to lose hope. Um I don't. lose hope. I start to feel his. hopelessness over the phone because he. should have been granted relief in the. courts and he's someone that just really. really deserves to be out. um you know. and I I have there's a bunch of cases. like that where we're trying so hard and. you have to at the same time at the same.

time you express you know confidence in. the people um that are responsible for. this stuff but you also want to make. sure that you're not offending them by. saying look I know you have a bunch of. cases um Emry Emry Jones is another one. I you know I do a lot of work with. Jay-Z's mom and Jay-Z, we have a found, he has a foundation, I have one, and we. mentor college students together in the. summer, pay for their last year um of.

college. And Emmery is a a childhood. friend of um of Jay-Z's. and has his full support Rock Nation, you know, Jay-Z's company, they're. behind him. and he's another one that. was convicted and spent decades in. prison for some drug crime. And he's. come out and checked every box. He's a. mentor. He's a pillar of the community. He's done so many amazing things. but.

he's under the weight of this old. conviction. and he's denied job opportunities and. you know you just you just got to keep. pushing and keep fighting and hopefully. your timing is right and you speak to. the right person and you get good news. one day. >> but the odds are so. the odds are so. I don't want to say stacked against you. but yeah it's who you know who has.

influence at that particular time with. the right person in the administration. >> What kind of punishments are there for. people like the the corrupt guy in. Brooklyn that you were talking about? Whatever happened to him? >> He's roaming the streets. He's roaming the streets. And and look, that's the most, you know, the the cop Lewis Garcelo. >> Yeah. He denies any I mean in the face. of these 21 cases that have been. vacated, he denies any wrongdoing.

>> So 21 different people. >> 21. >> he incarcerated them. >> Yeah. And you know, you know, one of the. things that I'm thinking might be a good. idea because we can all go on the. internet and look this [ __ ] up. Like if. you look up Lewis Garcella on the. internet, I bet you there's a Wikipedia. page that talks about his corruption and. lists all the people. We could all go on the internet. One of. the things that I think has been um. underused.

and I think should be part of people's. calculus rather than reading a headline. or listening to me or you or anyone is. read the trial transcripts. Make your own judgment. I mean, I don't um. I don't know what better way there is if. you want to say, "Well, what actually. happened? What happened at this person's. trial that you're.

and why do they deserve a second. chance?" Listen, there's there's a a. dear friend of mine who runs an amazing. organization called the Reform Alliance. Her name is Jessica Jackson. fantastic. lawyer and I mean is in is in the the. the bowels of the system fighting for. change and right now there's a bill that. the president's own pollster forget the.

guy's name has found that 80% of MAGA. voters support this act. It's called the. Safer Supervision Act and it it's. actually a system that rewards people. for when they get out for doing the. right thing. So that if you want to make. sure that you're. you know when you get out there are. terms of your supervision, how many. times you check in with your parole or. probation officer, how often are you. being subject to drug tests, is there an.

end in sight? This act actually is a merit system and. it's heavily supported. um by Republicans, by Democrats, by. everyone in between. And you would hope. that something like that would get. passed and and get pushed through. because the Safer Supervision Act is a. way that we can reward people for doing. the right thing and hold people. accountable that aren't doing the right. thing when they get out. But but your question about like what.

happens to the cops or the prosecutors. that do this, they have immunity. It's one of the most frustrating things. in the world is that most of these most. of the time qualified immunity applies. I mean, I could see immunity for a. mistake perhaps, but if there's a. pattern and it's clearly corruption and. you have a person that is taking away. people's freedom, how is there not a.

crime committed? How is how are they not. convicted or at least charged with. crimes? Well, listen, for those. listeners that want to get involved in. the process and actually make a. difference, you got to get involved. This isn't just like. activist speak. You can make a [ __ ]. difference. the person that ends up in a. position. to actually exercise their executive.

authority, executive clemency, whether. it's a governor. or a president, you should be a little. more invested. I mean, I had this situation. I gave. this guy every benefit of the doubt and. I thought I made a breakthrough. And. I mean, this is almost sadistic, I. think. And I'm sure I'll get a bunch of hate. mail about this that I could really give. a [ __ ].

I went through this process with. Governor DeSantis in Florida. and. I think he was actually [ __ ] with me. to be honest with you and he listened to. the case as a favor. And there's a public hearing of. the clemency board. and this guy's name is Michael Giles. And again, read the transcript. Um, as a. matter of fact, I brought a passage to.

read here. This is a another mindbender. This guy's in the Air Force. He is in Tampa. He ends up um. taking leave for the weekend. and goes up from Tampa to FAMU in. Tallahassee.

Never been there before. He has a firearm that he's licensed to. carry. He actually went into a police. station to get his carry license. military guy, never been in trouble in. his life, goes up to Tallahassee and a massive. fight breaks out in this club where. they're at. Literally zero testimony that he has. anything to do with this fight. Fight spills out into the parking lot.

and it's being instigated by one guy. And this guy that's instigating the. fight was thrown out of the club and his. own friends testified in the trial. We. were afraid he was going to hurt someone. bad. My client, Michael Giles, ends up in a car with the people he came. there with, waiting for the person that. had the keys to the car to come out and. emerge from this melee. And this fight is going on all around.

him. People testified, they were. petrified. and he takes his gun and puts it in his. pocket. He's standing there. like on the outskirts of this fight. after he gets out of the car and goes to. look for his friend that has the keys to. the car. The car was left unlocked, but. they couldn't leave because there was no. ignition key. And he gets sucker punched. and the guy that punched him says, "Yeah, I look for the first person I. could. Don't take it from me." Here's.

what he said at the trial. Here's what he said at the trial. First of all, there his friends are. testifying. This is from the trial, right? That he was act that this man was. acting quote crazy, that they were. afraid he was going to quote attack. someone. He was excited and acting crazy. and talking and cursing and upset and.

agitated. Were you concerned that he was going to. attack someone? Question. Answer, yes, I. was. Or get in a fight? Answer, yes, I. was. That's why I told him to leave. And. that's why he was told to leave the club. because he was wanting to fight someone. Isn't that correct, witnesses testify? Question. You saw Courtney Thrower, this. is the guy that punched my client, jump. on the individual with the plaid shirt,

didn't you? The guy with the plaid shirt. is my client. Yes, I did. Your testimony. is Courtney Thrower leapt and attacked. Mr. Giles from the front. Yeah, I was. That was the thing. Courtney then leaps toward Mr. Giles and. takes a swing at his face. And it goes. on and on and on that he took a running. start, left his feet, and punched my. client in the face. And look, there's a. melee going on.

So, he's on the ground. after getting punched and and the person. that punched him didn't hold back. He. was asked at the trial, "Question, Mr. Thrower, is it your testimony that you. ran with your entire body to strike this. person?" Answer: Yes. Question. So, you. at a full run or a sprint used the. weight of your body to impact this. person in the head? Answer: Yes. Question: Was it your intention to knock. him out? Answer: Yes, it was.

Question, and is there any doubt in your. intention? Answer, no. Question, had. this person actually done anything to. you at any time whatsoever? Answer, physically, directly, no. Question, was it your intent to hurt. this individual? Answer: Yes. That's. normally what you do when you punch. someone. So on those facts, as my client is laying on the ground and.

there's a melee going on where people. are getting punched and kicked, is he. justified at that point to take his gun. out and shoot in self-defense? He shoots this guy in the leg. and fragments of the bullet hit two. other people. That's the case. That's it. He is sentenced under Florida's. mandatory minimum.

to 25 years in prison. 25 years. He's been in for 15 years. I have gone to visit him. He is the only. client that I've ever represented that. has never got a ticket in prison. What. is a ticket? you know, didn't listen to. a corrections officer when they said get. against the [ __ ] wall. Um, you didn't have uh, you know, you.

didn't follow the rules. You didn't do. that. Not a ticket. So, various powerful people that know the. governor finally got him to listen. Now, before I got involved in the case, the family was told that the governor. was prepared to grant him clemency. and traveled to Tallahassee the day that. they thought he was going to get. released. And we're told on that day,

the governor changed his mind. So, I knew this all going in. I went and I appeared at a clemency. hearing and. I was as um. what do they say? You're um. the words escaping me when you're not. subservient but you're.

I'm trying to think articulated the. right way. I mean, I was not only respectful, but. you know, I. understood the gravity of what I was. asking for. This is a governor that has. never granted clemency, commuted a sentence to someone that was. currently incarcerated. And you know, he went through a laundry list of things. that he would like me to do.

His. parents live Michael Giles parents live. he's that's the name of my client. Michael Giles. His parents live in. Georgia. Could you con the governor. could you get in touch with the state of. Georgia? I mean this is all at a public. hearing. It's online. and see if their governor has any. problem. with abiding by the terms of release. You want me to contact the governor of. Okay.

submit a supervised release plan that is. exhaustive and runs all the way through. the term that he would serve out his. incarceration so that he should be on. supervised release for another 10 years. Contact this one, contact that one. So, I learned on good information that the. governor was like, he'll never be able. to get all that done. I got it all done. I had people help me. Went to the.

governor, spoke to the governor in. Georgia. We said, 'Yeah, of course, we'll abide by it. There's something. called the interstate compact. States. have to abide by each other's. supervision requirements when someone. goes from one state to another. This had. the support of John Ashcroft, Mike Mit, right-wing Republicans. that otherwise wouldn't support this. sort of thing. It was like I had a list. of like 40 people, former US attorneys. It got so much that the.

the head of the Florida Commission of. Offender Review. um they gave him a positive. recommendation to get out. Super rare. The attorney general was in support. Everyone was in support. A week before I. was told we're going to grant him. relief, they actually had me speaking to. the prison to transport him up to the.

clemency hearing. We were down to whether he would be able. to change into a suit because at the. public hearing, Governor DeSantis said, "I want to actually look at him eye to. eye.". And at the last second, for no [ __ ] articulated reason, he. said, "You know what? I've changed my. mind. That's that is brutal. It's it's uh evil. in my opinion. And it's precisely why,

you know, sometimes the king has to show. mercy. And it's precisely why this this. guy is not very popular, I don't think. And and I ask this because it's. relevant. Does Michael Giles. get prosecuted if he's not a tall black. man? I don't think so. The prosecutor that prosecuted him, I'm. not calling him anything. I'm giving you. the facts.

The prosecutor that prosecuted him went. through a DOJ investigation. because something was found in his. office targeting Hispanic residents for. harsher punishment. A whistleblower took. a photo of it. It was a memo hanging. over a water cooler. It's all over the. place. It's all online. You can read. about it. And he had to enter into some. agreement with the Department of. Justice. So, >> how is it phrased?

How's what for you? >> How is this the the determination to. prose. >> if prior criminal history or Hispanic. and then it has an arrow? >> Oh yeah, you can pull it up. >> Prior criminal history is the same as. just being innocent. >> This is this is the South. >> Wow. >> I mean it's it's out there. His name is. His name is Jack Campbell. Um, I mean. >> that is so crazy that they would not. just but actually print.

>> prior criminal history is equal to being. >> I don't think it said equal or Hispanic. might as well be saying. >> yeah there's a there's a whistleblower. that took a picture of it and then he. had to apologize for it. So, should the. thought enter my mind? Hm. I mean, I was. putting my daughter to bed one night and. I just looked up his name and I stumbled. across this and I was like, "Oh, okay.". Because I spoke to him one time and I. asked if he would give a letter of. support and he said, "I won't give a.

letter of support, but I I stand by what. I did." I said, "Do you want to know. what he's done since he's been in?" "No, I don't care. Not gonna support it. I. just won't. Oh, there it is. >> That's it. >> If no criminal history diversion, if. limited criminal history withhold costs. If extensive criminal history and or. Hispanic. >> adjudicated guilty plus costs and or.

extensive criminal history and or. Hispanic and Hispanic is in capital. letters. >> Yeah. And and so this this whistleblower. takes a picture of this and it leads to. a DOJ investigation where he agrees he. apologizes publicly and he agrees to go. into some training program and have the. prosecutors that work for him in a. training program for racial sensitivity. So you think, you know, I deal with the.

facts and I deal with what I see every. day. So, should it beg the question, is. Michael Giles getting charged with this. crime under the facts as I just told you. with the the testimony that I just read. to you? And they said, well, he ran. initially and when the police initially. spoke to him, he he didn't say he shot. the gun. He's a black man in America. Later that night, he admitted it. So, what does it make a And what does it.

make a difference anyway? The guy was. attacked. with a running start. Someone leaves. their feet and punches him in the face. Isn't 15 years enough. 15 years he's had. to go through I mean, you read the. letters from his kids who have now grown. up without him. You your heart ends up in in 50 million. pieces. And you know, so a guy like. Governor Dantis, I think it's like. there's no humanity there. And you know. the craziest part about it is that.

you never know who you'll meet and why. this is all to me human rights issue. The only um person that gave me a. sympathetic ear when I would go to. Florida before I lived there when I was. still living in New York and talk about. clemency cases was Nikki Frerieded. I. think she was the commissioner of. agriculture. and she ran against Dantis in the last. governatorial election and she's like. the fascinating part about it is that.

this is like a woman that's dedicated. herself to public service and she's a. major marijuana advocate. Legalizing marijuana has been her. mission for so many years. She's on the. board of normal. she'd be an awesome. guest because she became super unpopular. in Florida because of her stance on. legalization of marijuana. and um you know she was attacked over it.

about how weed is a gateway drug. somehow in the minds of you know people. that don't get it that it's some like. pathway to heroin addiction and you. medicinal marijuana, you know, cannabis. for healing, all of those things she's. been a major advocate for. And she told. me, "He's you're being strung along.". After she was out of office, she's now. the head of the I think she's the head. of the Democratic Party for Florida.

Wonderful woman. She's like, "They're. going to get strung along." I said, "No, watch. Watch. I'm going to be the first. one to get a clemency from someone in. prison." And he still can do it. Why won't he? [ __ ] knows. And it's, you know, I have. to to talk to Michael's mom. And I have to talk to him and it's like, you know, you run out of words. and yeah, it's not not just is this a.

dirty business, heartbreaking, you know. It's um. >> Well, it's got to be particularly hard. for you. You are a very sensitive guy. It's which is odd. You're a very. empathetic guy, which is odd for a. lawyer. You know, usually lawyers. eventually develop some sort of a shell. Just don't let enough in. You get hurt. too many times. Even if you start out. empathetic, you eventually develop a. thick skin.

>> Listen, I'm a crier and I don't hide. that. And. >> that's why you're able to do the kind of. work you do cuz you still are sensitive. to this and you still are empathetic. despite all the [ __ ] you've seen. >> Well, I mean, look, I have to be. I don't think you're good. I used to. think that it was something to shrink. from. In other words, that. because it it becomes um.

it becomes a heavy cross to bear when. you start wearing other people's hurt. and emotions. And. you know, I I I've found myself. sometimes. um inferring that people feel a certain. way when they don't. And I have to make. sure that I'm careful about that. I mean, my son Carter is like, he's 13. He's going to be 14 in April. And I. sometimes feel like.

I have to be careful with the empathy. because sometimes I'll be reliving some. traumatic event from my childhood and. I'll think, "Oh, he must feel this way. at this point in time at 13.". and I'm imputing an emotion to him that. isn't there. >> And sometimes. I'll do that with a client or their. family. Um, and I've I've gotten better. at it. But when you have to deliver hard.

news or. bad news. because there's so many. these these exonerations, the. commutations, the pardons, they're like. each one of them is its own miracle. Each one of them is it's so hard so hard. to get it done. >> I got to pee. We'll be right back. So today, right before we started this,

uh, Trump rescheduled marijuana. So it's. now schedule three. >> So it's in the same category as Tylenol, >> which is interesting. Um, that's a. compromise, right? It should be legal. and regulated. That's what I think. >> Isn't Isn't there been a stain on. Tylenol though under this. administration? >> Yeah, sure. It's been acetamophen is. responsible for at least 500 deaths a. year. Um, I read a horrible case about a.

lady who had COVID and she was. struggling, you know, in pain, really. hurting. >> Tylenol, >> kept taking Tylenol. >> Tylenol is co with coden. Coden, >> that's a schedule three. Oh, >> okay. Tylenol with coden. Tylenol three. >> That's schedule three. >> Stuff, but. >> that's different. >> It's different. Tylenol, different. regular. So, acetamin is. >> How do you feel about it being. rescheduled as a. >> Well, it's better, you know, certainly. it's better. Uh, I believe if it's. rescheduled, what does that mean? It. could be prescribed now, you know, and.

it can be prescribed uh state by state. Even in Texas, there's uh some medical. uses. Uh I feel like it should be like. alcohol. I think uh you should be of a certain. age to be able to use it. And um I think. it's not for everybody. I think that's. uh that's important that it isn't for. everybody. There are people that have. very uh particularly vulnerable. psychological states um mental.

constitutions whether they have a. history of mental illness or whatever. especially like highdose marijuana you. know Alex Baronson wrote about this in a. book uh called I think it's called tell. your children. um and he highlights the instances of. people that have schizophrenic breaks. from uh high doses of THC. And whether. or not they would have had those. schizophrenic breaks anyway, you know, we don't know. There's a certain.

percentage of the population that's just. schizophrenic. What causes it, we don't. know. Or we we don't know clearly why. something can cause it. But you should. be aware of those things. You know, I. it's not for everybody. I know a lot of. people don't like it, but I know a lot. of people who do. A lot of people it. enhances their life. It uh makes times. more enjoyable, makes sex more enjoyable. and food more enjoyable and fun times. with friends. It's like anything else. You can abuse everything, including. exercise. You know, I know a lot of.

people are addicted to exercise and they. overdo it. And people take CrossFit. classes and they go too hard and they. wind up getting robbed. >> What is that? That's some kind of thing. with your kidneys or liver or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Your you literally your your. muscle tissue breaks down faster than. your body can heal. Um, Rabbdo's dangerous. People die of. that. >> I remember reading about it when I did. CrossFit. 15 years ago, whatever it was, and I was. like, I'm not going that hard. How do you get.

that? >> What's for psychos? It's the David. Gogggins of the world, you know? I think. he got wrapped up, went to the hospital, got out, and then completed his race. >> Well, he's not human. >> Yeah, he's a psycho. He's amazing. >> I I I wonder how he runs and speaks at. the same time. >> Oh, he's in insane shape. I mean, he. does it every day. He runs 13 miles. every [ __ ] day. And then on top of. that, he does a series of like very. rigorous workouts. He does two or three.

workouts every day. >> Yeah. >> I mean, he's a fascinating guy. >> He's awesome. But he's a great guy. >> Stay hard. >> Great human being, though. He really is. He's great to talk to, great to hang out. with. I love them. Um, but point is like. you can get addicted to video games. You. can get addicted to gambling. The. gambling thing is a big argument people. use all the time, you know, cuz we uh, one of our sponsors is DraftKings online. gambling. Uh, I think you should be able. to gamble. I don't have a problem with.

it. Me personally, I don't have a. problem with gambling. Um, but I know a. lot of people that do and they shouldn't. [ __ ] gamble. You know, gambling is an. evil addiction. You watch people get. gripped by it. It's kind of crazy. I've known quite a few people that have. had gambling addictions, especially from. my pool hall days. >> I was just always around hardcore. gamblers. And the boy, man, it might as. well be heroin. It might it might as. well be for those [ __ ] people, but I. think you should be able to gamble. >> Uh I know it devastates some people's.

lives, but their choices devastate their. lives. And there's help and there's, you. know, you should learn how to manage. your mind. >> I think you have to learn restraint in. anything. >> Yes. You can't nanny state the whole. [ __ ] world, you know? You can't nerf. every hard edge on the planet. That's. not how it works. >> I love that. I'm going to steal that. Nerf it. >> You know, listen, I I I do things that. you can get hurt doing. And I think you. should be allowed to do that. You know, I know people that have been very badly. hurt doing martial arts, including.

competing. I did a lot of that. You. should be able to do it. You should be. able to ride bulls. I don't want to ride. a bull. You should be able to ride a. bull. Um, I think one of the things. about being a human being is as much. freedom as you can give people, the. better. And, uh, also inform them about. the dangers of whatever choices they. make. Give them an informed ability to. make a decision for themselves. This is. what it means to be a free human being. And you're going to make some dumb.

choices and you're going to make some. dumb decisions. And that's okay. That's. that's how we all learn together. collectively. And uh I think marijuana. is far better for you than alcohol. It. has legitimate medical uses, legitimate. um psychological uses. It relieves. stress for a lot of people. It's um. it's you can't criminalize something for. some something you don't agree with. It's crazy. Also, the LD50 of it is off. the [ __ ] charts. Literally the only. way to die from marijuana is.

it would take about a 50 lb package. hitting you in the head from a CIA drug. plane. That's how you die. >> What's an LD50? >> Lethal dose at 50% of the population. >> It's very high. So if you you're saying. like for people's b like if you're. saying that marijuana should be illegal. because it's dangerous. Okay. Dangerous. how? when when when there's so many. things that like we talked about. Tylenol, which I fully support Tylenol.

being legal. You should be able to if. you you're in pain, you can go get some. Tylenol. Cedinophen [ __ ] kills. people, you know. Uh like I said, it's. responsible for about 500 deaths a year. And uh I was telling you about the COVID. story. This poor lady, she was hurting. because she had COVID. She kept taking. Tylenol and didn't understand that you. just you can't there's a an amount you. can take and you should never take more. than that. and she had liver failure and. she [ __ ] died, >> you know, of something that is, you. know, it's horrible.

>> So, but I think you should be able to. take Tylenol. Just don't take enough to. [ __ ] kill you. I think that's that. should be the case with alcohol. Same. thing. I'm I'm I'm for legalization of. alcohol. When you make things illegal, all you do is prop up illegal people to. sell those things to people that want. it. There is a demand. They will supply. it. You know, this this is the situation. that we live in in this country when it. in regards to heroin, regards to. cocaine, regards to so many different. things. They're they're being supplied. and they're being supplied and you're.

propping up these illegal cartels and. these [ __ ] are killing people. and they make it ruth. It's ruthless and. it's what happened with during. prohibition of alcohol in this country. What did it do? It it propped up the. [ __ ] the the the mafia and that's. what they did. They sold alcohol. It. propped up organized crime. >> Yeah. I mean, we could learn something. from countries in Europe that. decriminalized not just marijuana but. other drugs. Yeah. And if you look at. the statistics on, you know, the rate of.

crime, the rate of the incidence of. overdose, it plummets. >> Plummets. Portugal is an excellent. example. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um but you know, the problem is. when you all of a sudden make things. legal that didn't used to be that used. didn't used to be legal, you're going to. have a bunch of people that abuse it. They're going to they're going to say, "Oh, it's legal now. Let's go." And a. bunch of people going to do it that. don't do it. You'll have problems. But. you you know you have you're taking the. band-aid off. You put a [ __ ] band-aid. on this country in the 1930s for. something that doesn't hurt people, >> which is what?

>> Marijuana. >> Oh, >> they did that in the 1930s. And there it. was a vast conspiracy, by the way. The. marijuana legalization thing, the. illegalization of it is a vast. conspiracy. >> I don't know much about this backstory. >> Okay. Well, I'll fill you in. Um William. Randph Hurst who uh owned Hurst. Publications also owned paper mills. So, uh, Popular Science magazine on the. front page, um, hemp the new billiondoll. crop. And the reason why hemp was.

problematic before that was because hemp. fibers, uh, like a friend of mine uh, used to grow marijuana and he had a hemp. stalk on his desk and he's like, "Pick. that up." And you pick it up and it's. hard like oak. It's It's hard like this. table. This is an oak table. It's hard. like that, but it's light like. styrofoam. Feels like balsa wood. I was. like, "This is crazy." He goes, "Yeah, it's like an alien plant. There's. nothing like it." Hemp fiber is. incredibly durable. And it makes.

superior paper. It makes superior. clothing. Um, canvas, all the great. paintings were all made on hemp. >> That's what canvas was made out of. >> Light, but very strong and durable. >> Very strong. The, uh, first draft of. Declaration of Independence was written. on hemp fiber, >> on hemp paper. So hemp was used to make. paper. It was used to make cloth. It was. used to make so many different things, but it was very difficult to do. Then. Eli Whitney came out with the cotton. gin. Well, cotton replaced a lot of the. things that we made with clothing.

Replaced a lot of that. It was a it was. an easier textile to process. Well, in. the 1930s, they came up with a new. invention called the decorticator. And. the decordicator allowed them to. effectively process hemp fiber much more. easily. So then Popular Science has this. magazine. There's a there's a machine. >> Yes, it's a machine. It's like this. It's like a steel like cylinder that has. all these uh protrusions on it and that. would grind up the the hemp fiber more. easily cuz before it had to be done.

manually and it's very timeconuming but. the process was an incredible and very. superior product. So William Randph. Hurst recognizes this as a threat to his. industry because he owns paper mills. He. owns forests that he's using to make. paper out of. >> also. Also, you should say that to make. paper out of a forest, you have to chop. down all those trees. It will take 20, 30 years for them to grow back. With. hemp, you get a new crop every year, you. the same amount of land. You're you're. processing four times as much paper and.

you're you're you can do it every year. It's way more effective. So, he starts. demonizing. this plant called marijuana, this new. drug. Now, marijuana was not a name for. cannabis. marijuana was a name for a. Mexican slang for wild tobacco. So he. just tags this name and starts calling. um hemp, >> which is just. >> just the leaves on the hemp plant. >> It's just the flower. >> The flower hemp plant. Yes. But it's.

also you can make and grow hemp that has. no THC in it as well. I believe it's. >> is it the female that contains THC and. the male doesn't? Anyway, point is, so. he they they sponsor all the Reefer. Madness films, you know, all those. propaganda films of the 1930s. >> Um, they start printing these stories. about blacks and Mexicans that are. raping white women after they take this.

new illegal drug. So, they pass laws on. this drug, not even really understanding. that they're making the the textile, they're making the commodity hemp. illegal. or making it very difficult to. regulate. And so William Randph Hurst. gets together with Harry Anslinger and. they they do this. They also take all. their police officers that and all the. people that they had used to process. prohibition of alcohol and go after. alcohol, you know, illegal alcohol sales. and now they turn it to can to cannab.

cannabis. And that's we we've been stuck. in that same horseshit since the 1930s. So self-interest. plus plus plus profit incentive add a. dose of hysteria. >> and you have prehistoric lobbying. >> that leads to the demonization of. >> I don't [ __ ] get it. I mean listen. >> it's also nylon. Nylon was involved. because uh you know they're using nylon. for ropes because hemp was always used.

for ropes and now they have this new. product. So there was a lot of people. that were involved in making sure that. hemp was very difficult to acquire so. that their their commodity could thrive. And then how many people suffered. because of that? How many people were. jailed? How many people died? How many. you know how many people were. incarcerated? You're dealing with. literally 90 years at this point. >> 90 years of [ __ ] I don't uh and I I. I do believe that there are some drugs. that are so addictive. that.

you start to lose your sense of free. will. I don't think weed is one of them. >> It's not to me. I wouldn't say it's not. It's one of them. It's not one of them. to everybody. I don't know. I don't. know. I hear horror stories about people. that are addicted to weed and can't get. off of it. >> You know, I do Sober October pretty much. every year. I didn't do it last year, but we take off everything. We don't do. anything. And we usually do like a. little fitness challenge with it. Uh. I've never had a problem. Stopped doing.

it. Uh I I got on these uh nicotine. pouches. I like nicotine pouches during. podcast. Keeps my mind like popping. It's like it's a it's a cognitive. enhancer. And I was like, man, maybe I'm. addicted to nicotine. Went on vacation. >> Didn't bring any nicotine pouches. Had. no problem. >> I you know, I'm happy I smoked a lot of. weed in high school. A lot of weed. It. was different though for me. It was at. least. It wasn't as strong. Oh yeah. >> And I've I've. >> You got scientists involved now. >> These botist know what the [ __ ] they're.

doing. >> Scientist. I one time smoked weed with. Lennox in Jamaica. >> Oh no. >> And and uh. >> that should be the song. That's like uh. by. >> by the time by the time. >> that blunt was being passed around four. people when it came to me the second. time I was like the room went sideways. on me. I could not [ __ ] cope. The. furniture seemed readjusted. And I've had other times where.

for me it got I got to a point where I. could not function on it. >> Yeah. Uh the and the last time where I. was like h this is just not for me. anymore. Maybe I smoke too much of it in. high school. I mean almost every day at. 15. But then I was at a casino. I was at. the Arya one time. And this must have. been. 15 years ago. And I was playing craps. and I had con I had taken like one or.

two toes and I convinced myself that the. guy at the other end of the crab's table. was an undercover officer that was going. to frame me for something. [ __ ] the. lady next to me was stealing my chips. This guy was going to have me [ __ ]. hatcheted. And I ended up in the corner. of the casino for literally two hours. trying to collect myself. >> And I And so. >> you went too deep. >> I went, man, I was I was.

>> It's too too strong for someone who. doesn't use it. See, this there's a lot. of people like uh my friend Beal from. Cypress Hill. >> I can't I can't Well, I can't even watch. the podcast because my blood pressure. goes up when I watch how much weed these. guys smoke. Him him and and uh Everlast. >> Yeah. Well, B Real lives in the cloud. There's a lot of those dudes, they call. it living in the cloud. Like, they're. just high all the time. Well, B Real has. his own weed business. And I did his. show, The Hot Box, where you you sit in.

a car. He has this dope like car that's. set up as a studio. So, there's like. cameras inside the car, and you just get. obliterated cuz they're just constantly. smoking in the car. I got out of there, I just sit down for like 2 hours. afterwards. You were okay or no? >> I was okay, but I was just like, geez, boys, you guys go [ __ ]. >> But but that's the but the but the. problem is for me with weed is that. sometimes I've smoked it and been I'm.

talking about as an adult. >> Yes. >> Post 30. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes I've been like, well, that was. really great. And other times I've been. like, I don't want to contemplate my. existence tonight. I've done that. enough. I've done that enough and and. it's all unanswerable questions and I'm. gonna have a panic attack. >> Yeah, >> man. One time I was on the platform at. Penn Station. >> and I started to like, you know, you get.

to that point when you're thinking about. dying and we could talk death dying and. we could say it and talk about it. But I. got to that that point where that. fifthdimensional. wall crumbled and I was like, >> "Yeah, >> oh my god, I'm not going to exist one. day." And I started to have a a panic. attack where I had to leave and go up. onto 8th Avenue and get some fresh air. And I'm just like, at this stage, I. can't.

I I would have to be like, "So, what. kind of weed is this? And how do you. know?" And I don't want to interrogate. someone that just wants to get me high. >> But here's the thing. If you don't get. high a lot, and this is my message for. everyone out there, if you go months and. months and months without ever taking. any one hit, a small one, don't get. crazy. Don't get crazy. You don't want. to. >> What if that one hit leads to nine hours. of being high? >> It shouldn't. >> It shouldn't. >> For me, it has. >> Well, it's like how much are you.

smoking? Like you must be taking a giant. hit. And it also depends on like what. kind of joint you have. Like there's. there's crazy people like in California, they'll sell you a joint that's like a. $50 joint and this joint has ke in it. So it has all the resin, all the you. know, you have a grinder. At the bottom. of the grinder, there's a filter and you. have all this sticky. >> THC crystals. They take those THC. crystals and they put it inside with the. marijuana and then they wrap the outside. of the joint. They roll it in the THC.

crystal. It's like it's on the outside. of it and it's just a pathway to. paranoia. It's just a rocket ship to. your your inner monologue screaming in. your your ear. >> It's I can't talk about it. It's scaring. me. >> But it doesn't have to be like that. >> Have you ever got paranoid smoking weed? >> Oh yeah. It's part of the fun. >> I don't mind it. I like it because. there's always some sort of a revelation. that I get on the other end of it. Like. if I'm paranoid, there's always like a. reason that there's a thing that's. bothering me. like what is that thing.

that [ __ ] with you during that time? And maybe there's a thing in your head. that you need to address. But generally, if I'm in a good place and I get high, I. feel great. >> I must have been in a great place at. like 15, 16 years old because getting. high back then and listening to Zeppelin. and Pink Floyd and hearing the lyrics. for the first time being like, "Oh my. god, someone else had that thought that. I'm afraid to say and they put it down. in lyrics and I'm not alone.". >> And you feel profound. you say profound.

things that aren't really profound. There's benefit to it. And I I think. that when you're young also, you don't. have bills, you don't have obligations, you just have to go to school. Your. burden is so much lighter when when. you're an adult and you have a family. and you have business and you have. things you have to do all the time and. you have conflicts and all the stuff. that's in your life. Like it can [ __ ]. with you. But I think generally like. for a lot of people, not for everybody, but for a lot of people, those moments. of paranoia of just dropping the veil, it's probably beneficial.

>> Oh, I think that I think that in the. long run, it opened the third eye of my. mind at a time when and fostered. creativity. and. I think changed my perspective on the. world smoking that much weed. I just got. to a point where I was like, I can't. parent on it. >> Right. >> For me, >> yeah, >> you just have to know, you have to be. mature enough and introspective enough. and self-aware enough to know yourself. For me, it just didn't work anymore.

Just like drinking. At some point, I was. like, it's not worth the [ __ ] pain, >> right? >> It just got too painful, >> right? But that's a decision that you. should be able to make as a man or as a. woman, as an adult. Make that decision. for yourself. Decide what you want to. take into your life or not. including. all sorts of other things that are bad. for you like [ __ ] processed food and. sugar. Do whatever you want to do as. long as you know what you're doing. And. we so we should educate people on what. these things are. And the problem is. with marijuana there was so many years.

of lies. There was so many years of. misinformation and it was just. constantly put out there as propaganda. and you know this is your brain on. drugs. Like shut the [ __ ] up. Well, listen. I remember those commercials. from being a kid. And I remember one in. particular where. there's a father that finds weed dating. myself in his son's room and he said, "Where did you learn to do this shit?". And he goes, "I learned it from you, Dad." And I remember thinking, "Man, my.

dad's a [ __ ] He's a bad guy.". Cuz my dad was a big weed smoker. And I. would find it all the time. And I'm. telling you, I think in my mind, that. commercial led me to thinking, "Dad, you're amoral." And look, you know, >> yeah, they they poisoned a lot of people. with those commercials. >> But but you know, >> meanwhile, your dad could be sitting. there watching TV with a cocktail. You. wouldn't think a damn thing about it. >> Yeah. My dad on weed was like an. alcoholic with with a with a whiskey. bottle. >> OH MY GOD. THAT'S IT. That's it.

>> To do this stuff. >> You all right? I learned it by watching. you. Parents who use drugs have children. who use drugs. >> Jamie is a [ __ ] wizard. >> Yeah, he's the best. You know, my. favorite one though is the girl comes. home from school and the girl starts and. the dog starts talking to her. >> Wait, before we get to that, you know. how a song or a smell can have you. tumbling back in time. Oh yeah. >> I'm like I'm drunk on nostalgia right. now like in the wrong Oh my god.

>> This is my favorite. I wish you didn't smoke weed. >> You're not the same when you smoke. And. I miss my friend. I'll be outside. >> How would you tell a friend like who. [ __ ]. >> Yo, that one is evil. >> signed off on that commercial. First of.

all, is not on marijuana. Cuz if you were on. weed and your dog started talking, you'd. be like, "What the [ __ ] You can talk.". >> The first thing I thought when that. started to roll, I looked at Jamie all. wideeyed. What did you put in my drink? The dog is talking. The only other time. I saw that was Mr. Ed. >> Yeah, right. Well, or um what's that. movie? Zookeeper. All the animals. talked. >> It's like, come on. This is [ __ ]. ridiculous. You know, when you peel the.

layer back, I had never known um that. one slipped through the cracks on me. The criminalization of weed and the. backstory. The. >> backstory is really crazy. >> It's crazy. And I remember I remember a. um a science teacher in high school. telling me, "You don't think that they can make a. tire that doesn't wear?" And they he. told me the story about how all the big. tire companies bought the patent for a. tire that can't wear,

>> right? It has the same um composition. as as uh same give and composition as. rubber when it came to handling, but um. it was a material that doesn't wear. And. I just thought he was [ __ ] crazy. And. now I believe that that's probably true. It's probably locked in a vault. somewhere because what would happen to. Goodyear and Firestone and the rest of. those tire? You're telling me we could. put a man on the moon and hear. conversations behind the walls of the.

Kremlin, but we can't make a [ __ ]. tire that doesn't wear? >> Well, I think one of those is true, but. the other one the the thing about tires. is that a tire has to have a certain. amount of softness to it in order for it. to have traction. When you have softness. and then you have a rigid surface like. asphalt, you're going to have some of. that tire is going to rub off on that. rigid surface because one is hard and. one is soft. Just like when you take a. file and you rub wood, you're going to. make sawdust. >> You know, you would know.

>> Yeah. >> about [ __ ] tires. >> Here I go giving an example of something. that I think is so out there that. there's no way this guy's going to And. you know about tire wear. I know a lot. about tires because the softer the tire, the more traction you get on a. racetrack. So, uh, with a really good. tire, you know, you only have a certain. amount of laps on a racetrack. >> So, the the science teacher was. bullshitting me. Basically, >> the scientist teacher probably was right. directionally that there are things like.

that where they would hide patents to. certain things and and hide certain. compounds if they found out these. compounds would compromise. Like if you. had something that people had to buy all. the time like light bulbs. Here's a. better example. Light bulbs. So there. are light bulbs that have been in. continuous use like on continuously for. 50 60 years and they don't burn out. because these are the original light. bulbs. The original light bulbs they. made the filaments much more durable.

>> And then they realized like why would we. do this? Well, we could have these light. bulbs just burn out and then you have to. get a new light bulb. >> and the filament would pop. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, >> I have read about this. See if you can. find those old light bulbs. I think. there's one that's been on continually. for an extraordinary amount of time, decades. >> 120 years. >> 120 years. Let's see that light bulb. >> So, if you look at the light bulb, >> light bulb, huh, >> and you see the filaments of that light. bulb, you realize, oh, they could have. just built light bulbs like this from. the beginning. And instead of paying $5.

for a light bulb or whatever a light. bulb costs, maybe it would cost 10. bucks. Got a firehouse in California. The Centennial Light 1901. >> Those that light bulb. >> Look at that. Look at that beautiful. filament. >> Yeah. See how thick those filaments are? So that's a light bulb that's built to. last. >> These [ __ ] they figured out, well, we'll just make it real skinny and. eventually it'll wear out and pop. >> That tire patent is sitting in a [ __ ]. vault somewhere. >> It might be. But the problem is it's it.

doesn't make sense because it has to be. softer than the ground. And whenever you. have something that's softer than a very. rough, hard surface, the softer thing is. going to give. Something has to give. Like if you have metal and you drive. around with metal wheels on the asphalt, you know what gives? The asphalt gives. You have scratches on the asphalt. >> Let me ask you this. So going back to. the weed, >> okay, >> cuz I got us on this diver. >> I want to find out about the tires. eventually. >> Well, I got something for it, but it's. not exactly Well, let me just do it now.

Uh, it's not full on never. >> Oh, this is different. >> Yeah, I know. But it does last way. longer. >> Well, there's no air in this [ __ ]. tire. >> Yeah, this is a airless tire. But that's. that this is uh something that people. have said forever. Like, why would you. have to fill up tires? Can't they come. up with something where, you know, it. just gives. >> And so, Michelin has done this. >> You're telling me that there's nothing. out there about tires that don't wear? >> I don't think so. It doesn't make sense. >> But watch this. I have a question. >> All right. So.

weed is criminalized by some. self-interested industrialist. Right. >> Right. Before that ubiquitous use for. centuries, >> right? So. >> including in churches. >> So cocaine you can make the same. argument for. >> you could. >> And then you have the Clinton. administration comes along and dubs. people. So in other words, what is the. moral inequivalency. between someone that is selling cocaine,

a lot of it, and someone that's selling. a lot of weed? Now, I understand the. common retort is, well, cocaine is a lot. more addictive, destructive. There's a. physical pathway to addiction. >> There's a physical pathway to addiction. >> Yeah, it's a different kind of. addiction. I think uh there is an. addictive quality to marijuana, but I. have a feeling it's same or similar to. the addictive quality of a lot of other. uh behavioral addictions. >> But I guess my my bigger question is so.

the the with the advent of the quote. unquote super criminal, I think it was. who was it? Hillary, Hillary Clinton or. Bill Clinton that came up with this term. or Biden. I know he's a big supporter of. that bill as a senator. And you know, without going down the rabbit hole of. private prisons and the prison. industrial complex, what bothers me. about these old drug convictions that we. were talking about earlier is it's just. a um a perspective shift that somehow. has in the psyche of of America writ.

large that you hear cocaine or crack. equals someone that should be locked. away and forgotten about. That was why I. mentioned Spencer uh Bowen and um you. know other folks that I've mentioned. because I just I I feel like. um there's no um what's the the the. right way to explain it? There's no. rhyme or reason to why we're leaving old. people that have not much left locked.

up, >> right? >> You know, and you know, I don't look. Larry Hoover is a good example. Larry. Hoover was uh pardoned uh or a sentence. was commuted by President Trump. and he was then put in he was in the. side of a [ __ ] mountain for decades. The man is 75 years old. He's been in. prison for over 50 years. He has.

renounced gang life. He has renounced. any affiliation with it. And then he was. his sentence is commuted and he's put in. state custody on some old tenuous. homicide charge where the person that. actually pulled the trigger is out has. been out for like 30 years. So Larry. Hoover is sitting there in Colorado. because he was in the side of that. supermax facility the side of that. mountain in Chicago and since.

>> Colorado or Chicago. >> no in Colorado he was in in Chicago. >> Well, he was and I misspoke. He's from. Chicago. He was the leader of the. Gangster Disciples. You're familiar with. Larry Hoover, right? >> Sure. >> Leader of the Gangster Disciples in. Chicago. He gets um he's in prison and. state prison. Then he goes into while. he's in state prison, they have a CCE. conspiracy against him and he gets um. >> CCe continuing criminal enterprise. I'm.

talking lawyer speak, >> sir. And then he he goes into federal. custody and he's put in the side of a. mountain where he's on lockdown 23 hours. a day for decades. The man's 75 years. old now. Since he's been put in state. custody, he's had three heart attacks. doing prison work. And what is the what. is the um utility in keeping someone. like that in? Because you know, Governor. Pritsker could just say, you know what, enough's enough. Um there's there's.

interesting stuff out there about what. they call sea criminals. So it was like. before February of 1978, I believe it was 1998. where people would get indeterminate. sentences in the state system in. Illinois. You know, you'd hear these. sentences of like a hundred years, 200. years where there's no hope. And there. were like thousands and thousands of. them. there's only 30 of them left and. he's one of them. He's got an.

indeterminate sentence. Isn't 50 years. enough? So, like that's another one of. those cases that bothers me because, you. know, if we're a if we're a society of. of um reform, deterrence, rehabilitation, he's it. And what better. message is there to say, you know what, you've done enough and now let's see. what positive you can do. the proposed. terms of his release are like at the. strictest supervision. He just wants to.

live out his life with his his family. He's got a great lawyer backing him. named Justin Moore. I helped, you know, advocate for his pardon to President. Trump. >> He's he was pardoned. >> His sentence was commuted by President. Trump. His federal sentence, >> right? But he had some crazy 200year. sentence in state court, right? Oh, look at this. Is it? So, it. was 1978. He's one of just 35 people.

still incarcerated under Illinois's. pre78 indeterminate sentencing system. >> So, the case was from 73. >> Oh, yeah. He's been in prison for 50. some odd years. >> God. >> And you know, I just feel like at this. point, isn't enough enough? And you. know, >> and he didn't even do the killing. >> No. And the person that did it is out. The the allegation was that he ordered. it. And I don't even believe that. >> And Andrew Howard, the guy who killed. him, was parrolled more than 30 years. ago. >> Yeah. It just doesn't I don't.

understand. And and what what it what's. going on, I think, is that someone like. Governor Pritsker is just they don't. want the political cost, >> right? >> Right. >> Of of taking a chance like this. And you. know, this is another one that keeps me. up. You know, some people would say, "Why care about that guy?" Because I. know his wife. I know his son. I James Prince um knows the family so. well and has supported them on this.

journey for over a decade. There's so. much public support for this. The guy's. 75. So why are we wasting taxpayer. money? And why are we keeping someone. incarcerated? I mean even in the most. >> so I don't understand if they commuted. his sentence how he's not how he's not. out. >> He was his federal sentence was. commuted. >> Oh. >> so as soon as he was released from. federal custody he was taken into state. custody and they didn't even take him. from Chicago.

excuse me from Colorado. his state sentence is in Chicago where. he could be at least closer to his. family and Colorado state system said. we'll keep him here so he was. transferred from federal to state. custody. So that's one that's just like. you know there's one heartbreak to the. next and I try and look I'm super super. super careful. Um, you can help people. with second chances. You can't help them. with what they do with it. But I I'm now.

at a point where I really want to think. long and hard about what people do with. their second chances. And, you know, I. just wouldn't get behind someone that I. didn't think was I just it's an. indictment of society that we have these. desperate sentences that are doled out. and and a lot of it is driven by what is. considered worse behavior. Is it worse. behavior that you sold cocaine or. marijuana? I guess the argument is that cocaine was.

more destructive, more addictive, you. could die from it. Well, same thing with. alcohol and alcohol is legal. So, I just. don't I have a hard time. grappling with. what is considered a controlled. substance. >> Yeah. Because alcohol, if abused, if put in the wrong hands, it's highly. addictive. It's highly destructive to. your body if you abuse it, ruins. people's li. I mean, how is it that. alcohol is legal?

>> It is weird. >> It is weird. And um the real problem is. history. So, we have a long history of. all these drugs being illegal now. So, you have a long history of people that. are criminals selling this these drugs. So, it's got this criminal history. attached to it. If you were to make. cocaine legal in the United States, you'd essentially put the cartels out of. business, right? Because that's probably. their main business is probably either. fentinyl and heroin or heroin pills, you.

know, oxy pills or cocaine. And you. would have way less accidental overdose. deaths because a lot of it is not people. overdosing from actual cocaine. it's. getting fentinyl. >> or whatever or whatever else they're. [ __ ] mixing it up. >> Well, all sorts of different. amphetamines. >> Um, we have a long history now dating. back to the 30s of alcohol being legal. People are accustomed to it. It's. normal. You're accustomed to growing up,

being able to have a couple of beers. with your friends, going to a party when. you're a kid, there's a keg party. People know how to handle it. It's been. around. Cocaine has not. You It's You. get scared. What's in it? How do I know. where it came from? You know, you get a. [ __ ] beer, you know it's a beer. You. know, you crack open a Bud Light, it's a. Bud Light. It's what it is. Cocaine is unregulated. >> It's crazy. >> And if you think about it, if you're if. you're someone doing cocaine these days.

and you're trying to think like, am I. going to die, right? You dip a what are. they? Fentanyl strips that you can test. it and see what's in it. But if it was. regulated and if people want to do it. >> right, >> you know, let them go bang their head. against the wall and do it. >> Yeah. Then the problem is people would. be profiting off of that. And then so. you'd have instead of, you know, no one. has a problem with Annheiser Bush. selling beer, right? But meanwhile, there's alcoholics and it's going to. ruin their life. But if Annheiser Bush.

all of a sudden started selling cocaine, the social stigma that's attached to it. because of all the years of it being. illegal would be a real problem. Um, we. would have, like I said, it would be. like ripping the band-aid off. You're. going to have a lot of problems. initially for quite a while. I would. imagine there's going to be a lot of. people that do cocaine that would never. do it previously because it was illegal. But if they find out that there's you. can go to the cocaine store and buy a. certain amount of cocaine and go do it. But you also would be getting pure.

cocaine. So you would be getting this. experience that people have used way. back to the [ __ ] you know, who knows. what time. I mean, there there's. Egyptian mummies that have tested. positive for cocaine. >> I I mean, look, I don't Yeah, I'm not. advocating for it one way or another. It. just seems like anything that I've. looked into and read about in countries. that have um legalized. >> or decriminalized. >> or decriminalized it at least and you. could get it and not have to worry about. it being adulterated in some way. It.

seems like the statistics are. overwhelmingly. >> yes. >> pointing in one direction. >> 100%. But those are smaller countries, you know, and it don't have the the. consumption problem that America has. We. were we uniquely love to consume drugs. and um we are propping up the cartel by. doing that. And that you know if you. want to go to war with the cartel, if. you want to really stop the the flood of. illegal drugs into this country, unfortunately one of the only ways to to. really do that accurately is to both.

stop them from bringing in illegal drugs. and then give people access to legal air. quotes safer drugs. see seems like a. >> it's a problem. >> It's a you got. >> politically it's a it's a suicide. >> I was going to say you got to swim. uphill through a or upstream through a. river of [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In order to pull that one off. >> Yeah. For a long time. >> Yeah. And I I just um this this has. struck me more lately in dealing with.

these old drug cases. >> where these people have spent decades. and decades in prison. And you know, >> you you know, you hear them on the other. end of the phone and he's like, "Look, I. was a I was a kid. I was in my 20s. I'm. 50. I'm 60 years old. Isn't it enough? >> It's getting to the point where it's. putitive to the point of of harmful and. barbaric.". >> Yeah. And then they don't want to let. those people back out on the street. it's more convenient for them to keep. that person locked up forever. >> You know, if you saw like what's behind.

it, you know, I this is a interesting. update on the Ohio 4 case and we don't. have to go back into the whole thing. again because people could watch the the. last time, but you remember we had the. former prosecutor JD Tomlinson on at one. point with the case in Ohio. >> Yes. where these guys did not need to. assume the burden of being. demonstrabably innocent, but we were. able to prove it. And you know, JD. Tomlinson agreed to vacate their.

convictions. And then when he left. office, you know, a few weeks later, the. new the incoming their equivalent of the. district attorney overturned it. Right. Since coming on this show, JD Tomlinson. has been under attack for a previous. exoneration that he granted by this same. sitting Lorraine County prosecutor who. just filed a 300 p page brief saying. that he committed fraud on the court and.

all kinds of nonsense over a crime that. never happened. And this is why he was. so reluctant to ever speak to me in the. first place because. >> he knew he'd be targeted. He knew he'd. be targeted and they're trying to undo. an exoneration for this poor woman. that's already been exonerated. And I. thought, you know, I would talk about it. publicly and say I trust him. I made a. presentation to this new prosecutor. I. got um myself along with the Ohio.

Innocence Project uh public defenders. I. I got a bar complaint filed against me. by the original prosecutor for standing. up to exonerate someone. And I was. summarily dismissed in Ohio. But you. know, and what and and the question. becomes like what can you do? So Derek. Hamilton and I are trying to do we go to. the city council and raise awareness. Don't you care that you have a. prosecutor that is seemingly more. interested in settling personal scores. and vendettas than he is about letting.

innocent people go free. And I have this. guy, you know, John Edwards, who's one. of the Ohio four, and I'm I'm I feel. like when I see him calling from prison, I'm running out of things to say to him. Like, I'm so desperate for help. And you. know, if anyone is living in Lraine, Ohio or Alyria, I mean, you got to take. your take a look at your local elected. officials. I mean, demand to know what happened in the Ohio.

4 case. I mean, we have it online. You. can read about it. You can read the. trial transcripts. I just don't get. why people can't let go and say, "Maybe. I made a mistake. Maybe I was wrong." I. mean, these guys are are so. demonstrabably innocent where you have. the person that claims he witnessed the. whole thing, you know, came went to the. FBI and said, "I made the whole thing. up.". >> You know, it's just uh. >> it's a horrible case. >> It's horrible. and and and.

>> nobody wants to admit it. Nobody No, but. the problem is I think if they do admit. it, someone's going to start digging. into their past and they're going to. find out these [ __ ] have been. wrong a bunch of times. >> Well, I'll tell you what, one thing. that's different about me and why I hang. around Derek so much um is I want his. superpowers to rub off on me because I. realize that if you don't get. stay aggressive and keep the pressure. on, the truth will eventually What? What. did uh what what was the so truth.

crushed to earth shall rise again? Was. that like an MLK quote? >> I always think about that because at. some point. at some point um. the truth comes out. It's a stubborn. thing. And whether it's old files of an. old case and who you used to hang out. with um and if you have photos sitting. in a vault some whatever it is it's. going to come out and it just seems like. you're doing so much more damage to hold.

on to these old beliefs rather than and. because one thing is for sure I'm. stubborn and I'm growing more stubborn. as I as it as time goes by too. You have. to have the resolve and the wherewithal. that every time you get a no and every. time you get rejected, you're like, "All. right. All right. I see you. I'm gonna. get my beast on now and keep coming back. and I'm going to bring people with me. and we're going to make as much noise.".

One thing that that that people don't. like is to have the light on them. And. you know, we we now have the ability to. to do that not only through this. platform, but you know, I was talking to. someone before I came here today that. works at the center, and I said, "You. can't be afraid to speak to um the. press." And I said, "As long as you. know, you have some control, some.

control over what you're saying." And. then I like quickly stuffed the words. back in my mouth and I said, "Just. forget about that. You got to be very. careful when speaking to the press. because it gets edited and chopped up.". >> Sure. >> You know, I just I did an article with. the New York Times about something. recently, man. I I told that reporter, "Lose my [ __ ] phone number because. you took one sentence of a throwaway. quote and disregarded everything else.". >> Of course.

>> You know, and that's why I'm really. careful about it. That's why nobody. wants to talk to them. Everybody knows. the game now. Like they're Look, it's. just they have a long history doing. that. What they care about is a juicy. story. That's all they care about. >> Yeah. And suffering sells. >> and human tragedy sells and and I would. really love to be able to tell like the. the the triumphant stories that a. prosecutor did the right thing on the. front end, >> right? On the front end rather than.

after 20, 30, 40, 50 years. So, you. know, all of these cases that we talk. about, we're going to do something a. little bit different is I'm going to set. up a repository where people can go in. and look at the public records. No one's. really ever done that. This way, you. don't have to rely on my word, a. headline, a clip from from a video. where, you know, there were people that. started to consume the Ohio 4 case and. are writing in and are saying like, "How.

are you letting this stand? Eventually, enough drips of water fills the bucket. and the bucket overflows. And at some. point, something's got to give, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you believe in. what? Good over evil. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. I mean, something's got to. get. >> I mean, if you really believe in good. over evil, I mean, we all believe in good over. evil, but sometimes it doesn't work. And.

is it for lack of trying or is it just. the world's not fair? I think it's both. >> Well, >> you know, and I think there's there's a. lot of people that have a lot of power. that will keep good from winning because. it would somehow another derail their. life or their career because they have. done something evil. >> But this is a sick this is a sick trait. that we possess as as mammals, as. humans. Whether you're a safety patrol as a. fourth or fifth grader or a bouncer.

outside of a club or a TSA agent, there's something about that authority. Something about that power. >> sure. >> that people get drunk on and they get. they get it. It It's almost like it. courses through their veins to the point. where they're like, "Well, I like this. >> I'm going to exert this." And it's it's. like. I I just um I understand it, but I don't um I don't understand how at.

some point your conscience doesn't kick. in and say, "All right, devil on this shoulder. Let's do the. right thing." Because I always feel like. bound by some sort of social contract, right? >> Did it ever feel good to harm someone? I. don't know. Never did for me as a kid. No, >> I mean I could look back at my childhood. and be like that was a shitty thing you. did. You know, I still feel guilty about. things I did as as an elementary school. student. It's like. >> because you're a good person. >> No, no, I don't think that I really.

don't. No, I don't think that that's. what it is. >> Is that Well, that's part of being a. good person is when you do make a. mistake or do something bad, you feel. something. >> I don't actually I appreciate that, but. I don't actually think that's what it. is. I think that that um we all know. when we're saying something hurtful or. harmful at some point you know it or. you're doing something harmful and it's. just I don't understand I guess the. disconnect between having that. realization and just saying [ __ ] it or.

actually taking like a pause. >> right. >> and I guess if I could solve that I'd. have the key to many of the world's. problems but I guess I'm just dealing. with these is in the meantime. >> Well, you would have to completely. rewire the way people think, and there's. ways to do that, and all those ways are. illegal. [Laughter]. That's where psychedelics comes in. You. know, it's one of the things I I had a. conversation with my friend Jesse. Michaels the other day, and one of the. things I said is one of the things.

that's really interesting about. psychedelics is there's no criminal. cartel that sells them, even though. they're illegal. There's no criminal mushroom industry. >> where there's a bunch of like evil. assassins selling kids mushrooms. >> It's such a uniquely beautiful. experience that it's really only. connected to like kind people who sell. it for the most part. >> Let me ask you the same thing. Let me ask you something in reference to. what you said earlier. Do you think you.

have to have a particular mental. constitution to take psychedelics? I. think you should. Yeah, you I I I don't. think it's for people that are very. vulnerable. I think uh there's a lot of. people that just regular reality is. difficult enough to manage. >> You know, I'm you know, I'm saying this. uh objectively, right? Because it's not. me and but I I don't want to be arrogant. and say I could do it, you could do it, too. That's ridiculous. There's a lot of. people that shouldn't be doing anything.

They shouldn't be drinking. They. shouldn't be There's There's people out. there that shouldn't do caffeine. is people have very different biological. vulnerabilities. There's some people. that I believe are biologically. vulnerable to alcoholism. Their whole. family's alcoholic. It might be a. genetic trait. Seems to be like some. there's something wrong with them and. their ability. And then then there's. also genes that uh like this was the the. issue with Native Americans when we. introduced alcohol to them. They didn't.

have a history of alcohol. They didn't. know how to handle it. They they got. wrecked. Like there's alcoholism to this. day is an enormous problem in Native. American tribes and and and in the. reservations. >> It's a major problem in Canada. >> Yeah. >> You know, my. >> with First Nation people, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because they. were given reparations. >> and my experience with it up there is. that they, you know, there's a serious. problem especially in Western Canada. with it. Mhm. >> But I um the reason I ask about it with.

psychedelics is that I at the probably. the lowest point in my life um you know. I was with you and um I remember you. recommending ketamine therapy and or. thinking that might be something I. should look into. >> Yeah, this is something that I've never. done, but uh I do know quite a few. people. My friend Neil uh Neil Brennan, he went to a doctor to get ketamine. therapy. >> Yeah. So when I raised it with my.

therapist at the time. >> and she was like the the body of. research on this is so overwhelming that. I would be remiss if I told you don't. try it. >> Something we should talk about and think. about. And you know it helped me. tremendously in a way that very very low. dose but it's like you know I I mean I. thank you for even like suggesting it. because it was something that I had. always associated with like my roommate.

in college. >> in a in the fetal position in his bed. and I was like yo what's wrong with him. and someone said he's in a khole. I was. like the [ __ ] is that? He's He's in a in. a khole. Yeah. >> And it was always like, "Oh man, I'm. staying away from that. He looks like he. looks like he could expire any moment. >> He was not a lighter shade of pale. He. was like translucent.".

>> And I was like, but then, you know, it's. it's a it's. >> under supervision. That's the key. Under. supervision and then with the correct. dose. And I think that would probably be. the case with most psychedelics. And it. turned it it would turn the field of of. psychiatry on its head and there would. be such a lobby against it and the drug. companies that make all these great. drugs that rewire your brain would hate. that [ __ ]. >> Yep. Yeah, they would. Yeah, they would. And uh I think they're wrong.

>> Yeah. I mean I think humans throughout. history have been using it and you know. to various degrees of success. I think u. for some people it's not good. It's like. a lot of other things. But it's up to us. to figure out what's good for you and. what's not good for you. This is part of. the freedom of being a person, you know? I mean, there's a lot of things that you. could easily protect people from that we. allow people to do. Here's the one that. um I saw a documentary about this and um.

the one that I can't. make a decision on. What's the one where. you take it and you're [ __ ] puking? You're wretching to the point where. you're like puking out of your eyeballs. >> Iawaska. >> Iawaska. >> Yeah. >> And people are like [ __ ]. >> Mhm. >> How can that be good? >> Well, the reason why you p Well, here's. what Iaska is. First of all, IA is. orally active dimethylrypamine.

Dimethylryptoamine is an indogenous drug. that your your body produces. your brain. produces. It's produced in the liver, in. the lungs. It's it's a natural component. of the human body. Terrence McKenna had. a great line about it. He said, "The. thing about DMT is everyone's holding.". Meaning like you're everyone has if it's. illegal, it's it's like making blood. illegal. Your body has it. >> So what does Iaska do chemically? So Iawasa. so dimethylryptamine which is the active.

drug um the active compound. dimethylryptamine exists in thousands of. different plants. It's in a bunch of. different grasses and plants. It's not. orally active because your body produces. something called monoamine oxidase. And. monoamine oxidase breaks down. dimethylryptamine in the gut so that if. you consume things like these grasses or. different plants that have high levels. of dimethylrypamine in it um your body.

breaks it down so it doesn't become. active. What Iasa is is the one plant. that contains. dimethylryptamine and another plant that. contains harm. uh harm which is a. monoamine oxidase inhibitor. So you take. the MAO inhibitor and then the. dimethylryptamine. They brew it all. together and then you have a slowrelease. orally active dimethyl. >> That's that [ __ ] with the orura.

>> Yeah. That's what he's making. All. right. >> You know, and so there's that is what it. is. So you you take it orally. It takes. a long time because it has to go through. your digestive process. It gets in your. bloodstream. you have this trip and um. you know when you're you know puking and. [ __ ] and all all that stuff it's. like your your body is like whatever the. [ __ ] this is is not good. But the result. of it the end of it is this extremely.

impactful experience that leads many. people to quit alcohol. Many qu people. quit cigarettes from it. They quit. destructive behavior. they release. trauma and learn to get over things that. have happened in their life and move on. It's uh you have these experiences where. you are in contact with what seems like. entities and incredibly wise loving. entities that connect you to nature and. to the earth. It you know and I'm sure.

people have bad experiences. I'm sure. it's a very powerful psychedelic. >> You [ __ ] yourself too. Yeah, you could. [ __ ] yourself, you could throw up. Yeah, I mean some it doesn't happen with. everybody, but it happens with a lot of. people that do it. Um, but that's not. the case with smoking. dimethylryptotamine or with uh IV drip. dimethylryptoine. We had a guy on. recently that they're doing an uh a. clinic. Where was that island? They're. doing that. They're doing they got it.

legal in some place. And so you could. fly to this place and do uh an IV. dimethylryptotamine experience without. the [ __ ] without the vomiting. And. it's even more intense than Iawaska. unless you would have like a really high. dose of iawaska. But like this the pure. smoking of DMT is much more powerful but. very short experience. Your body brings. it back to baseline very quickly because. your body knows how to process it, right? Your body doesn't know how to. process alcohol nearly as well as it.

knows how to process DMT because DMT is. natural in the body. >> Yeah. But you don't [ __ ] yourself and p. well but you don't with the IV. With the. IV you don't you don't with smoking it. You don't [ __ ] yourself. >> just when you drink that [ __ ] witches. brew. forest. Yeah. You know. >> get bit by mosquitoes and [ __ ]. >> You know what's interesting? >> Hanging out with hippies. You could do. all of these forms of psychedelics. that um.

lead to some sort of resolution or peace. on the other side. >> Um. you have to still even if you do it in. modern psychiatry like I did something. called EMDR. Are you familiar with that? >> No. >> I think it stands for eye movement. desensitization. Um EMDR. Yeah. I don't know what the R. stands for. Um but it is something that. um. I mean you have to go through the a.

similar amount of suffering and it's to. deal with past traumas eye movement. desensit and reprocessing. All right so. I went through this and it helps you. you could do it there's some sometimes. you're doing it with your eyes but you. you ever um. you ever you ever use flown? No. >> You know what it is? >> Yeah. >> All right. And it has like a green cover. on it. >> So, you hold on to these two paddles the.

way I did it. And they're hooked up to. this little transistors, little box, and. it's like it buzzes your hand. You hold. on to them and it'll buzz your hands no. more than like the buzz of a cell phone. in this rhythmic. this rhythmic um pattern. And before you. do it, you really set up what the trauma. is. So I I went through months of trying. to identify like what were the things. from my childhood that were haunting me. Um and once you do you then relive those.

moments with this rhythmic buzzing and. you do it again and again and again. And. after each session, which could last. anywhere between a minute to 10 minutes, where your eyes are shut and you're. getting this rhythmic pattern, and you open your eyes and you explain. what just happened, but you start in. that place. You're 12 here. And I have.

to tell you, it was it was one of the. most painful. um agonizing things I had ever done. And. it was the most religious experience I. had ever had because you're almost in a. you're almost in a translike state and. your mind is going. and you then explain what happened and. it's almost like a it's almost like a.

guided daydream and then when you. explain it you then go back again and. start and I and when I was first doing. it I was like this is just torture. It's. just straight up torture. But then you. start to see a an improvement in your. mood and an improvement dealing with. that particular and I learned more about. myself, my childhood, my my my behaviors. than I than I did doing any drug, any.

psychedelic, any which I did in my. youth. Um and it it literally saved me. Interesting. >> Yeah. And it and it and it sounds to me. I just had this revelation as you're. talking about like you know it's almost. like you have to purge the pain. You. have to relive it almost in order to get. rid of it. >> And you're the theory behind EMDR as I. understand it is that you don't have the. same physiological response at recalling.

the trauma. >> You know you could think of something. that happened to you 10 years ago and. you can still get the heart palpitation. and the adrenaline rush and the you know. the other what whatever is being. released in your body um whatever. hormones get activated and it doesn't. happen anymore. I mean it's uh the way. that it was introduced to me was that my. therapist did it with um combat veterans. who could get triggered by a grain of.

sand on the beach. because they were in Desert Storm and. spiral. So, I find it interesting. because it seems like the same. methodology is at play, but it's just a. different way of getting there than. psych. >> Well, there's other ways that they do it. without the psychedelic drug that. induces psychedelic experience, like. holotropic breathing. >> What is that? >> Uh, put that into perplexity, young. Jamie. Uh, it's a particular style of breathing.

that um allows you to achieve an altered. state. Um, I don't want to misspeak on. exactly how to do it. It's an intense. structured breathing technique designed. to induce an altered non-ordinary state. of consciousness for emotional healing. and self-exloration. Typically involves. prolonged deep rapid breathing while. lying down accompanied by evocative. music and guidance from a trained. facilitator. um developed in 1970 by psychiatrist. Thennis Lav Gra and his wife Christina.

after LSD assisted assisted. psychotherapy became restricted as a way. to reach similar therapeutic states. without drugs. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, there's a bunch of different. styles of breathing that um like James. Neestor writes about some of these in. his book Breath. Um is it breath or. breathe? >> Spelled the same way. >> How you pronounce it? >> Doesn't one have an E? one has an E. country you're from. >> I think breathe as an E. Uh but the.

point is like there's ways of inducing. uh a psychedelic state without drugs. Uh. obviously the best one is the sensory. deprivation tank that takes you to a. very psychedelic place and it's. completely natural and safe. >> A float tank. >> Yeah. Float tank. >> Yeah. Done that. >> Which is in invented by John Lily who uh. also was a ketamine guy. He was really. into academy. >> Oh, I got I got You got me into that. flow tank. I was in there one time and I.

was like I didn't know if I was facing. north or south. I didn't know if I was. submerged in the [ __ ] water. You feel. like you're flying through the universe. >> There's so much the salt content keeps. you so buoyant that you go into this. translike state. I highly recommend that. [ __ ]. >> I have a question for you. Um, off. topic, who the [ __ ] wins this fight Friday. night? >> Oh god. Okay, if you have money to bet. on it, you're betting on the Olympic.

gold medalist who's a multipletime. heavyweight world champion who's one of. the greatest knockout artists in the. history of the heavyweight division. That's Anthony Joshua. What's fun is you. don't think Jake Paul can win. And so. the underdog rooder in you is like, "Well, let's see. Let's order this. Let's see." I mean, the size difference. is insane. Uh Anthony Joshua's 245 lbs. was the weight limit that he had to. reach. He had to drop down to 245 lbs.

He's probably a little heavier, but. that's normal for him. That's fine. It's. not like he's going to be dehydrated or. anything. He weighed 243 and um Jake. Paul weighed 216. So, I mean, that's a. big gap. It's a big gap in weight. It's. a big gap in experience. I mean, you're. talking about a guy who fought Usyk. twice and wasn't stopped by Usyk, who's. one of the greatest heavyweights, if not. the greatest of all time. One of the. greatest boxers of all time. You're. talking about a guy who beat Vladimir. Klitschko again. Fantastic. Great fight.

Great fight. >> Um, you're talking about a guy who, um, I mean, just knocked out Francis Enanu. like it was nothing. Uh, I mean, he's. [ __ ] dangerous. Anthony Joshua is. still in his prime. He's still one of. the best of the best. And Jake Paul is a. guy who's been fighting guys like Ben. Ascrin and Tyron Woodley who was a great. MMA fighter, but you know, fought Nate. Diaz and had a tough fight with Nate. Diaz and now he's going to fight Anthony. [ __ ] Joshua. >> Yeah. I I mean, I got to say the reason.

I asked. >> Kid's got balls. >> He's got balls. You know, Shakur just. went and sparred with him recently. >> Yeah. and uh all these kids. I don't think. I've ever wanted two people that are. fighting each other to lose more. So, I. don't know which one I want to lose more. because Anthony Joshua, as great as he. is, I don't know. He beefed with Lennox, so I gotta kind of I got to kind of like. be with my guy, >> of course. >> And then the other guy is just like.

so smart in the way he's playing this. from a marketing standpoint. I think. >> brilliant. You know, >> listen, he was supposed to fight. Javvante Davis, who's 135 pounder, who's. tiny in comparison to him, and then he. flip flips it, >> but he's taking a lot of heat for almost. fighting Javvante, right? But Javvante. had some legal troubles. He got out of. that. And then his response to that is, okay, I'll fight the biggest, baddest. [ __ ] heavyweight alive or one of. them. >> Yeah. and and um it's almost like a.

parallel universe because two guys that. I managed in their professional career. are are both calling the fight. So. Lennox and Andre are both there and I. was talking to them last night cuz they. were at dinner together. I said, "How. are you taking this ser? Isn't this. [ __ ] nutty to you?". >> It's definitely nutty, but that's the. Jake Paul show. It's a sideshow. >> And and all the young kids like Shakur, they think they want to be around him. They think he's brilliant. And they're. right in a way, right?

>> Oh, yeah. No, he's brilliant in his. marketing for sure. Like, he's made an. extraordinary amount of money, right? So, he's doing great and he's young and. he's super dedicated to boxing. I mean, you watch him train. I've I've watched. many highlight reels of his training. He. He's very dedicated to boxing. >> Works his ass off, but. >> he keeps getting better with every. fight. If you're Anthony Joshua and you. don't knock that [ __ ] kid out, how do. you show your face again in the UK? >> And look, he might knock him out. I. mean, and that would probably just show.

that Jake Paul is legitimate in his. ability to take a very difficult fight, you know, that he's willing to not just. fight guys that he could beat like Ben. Akran, but fight guys that. >> No experts picking him to beat Anthony. Joshua. I mean, I'm I'm I think I'm. going to go I think I'm going to go and. this is the. >> It's in Florida. >> Yeah. It's the first time that I'm like. I want to see this [ __ ] show. I want to. see I mean these are two I mean Anthony.

Joshua for all all [ __ ] aside for. all his [ __ ] talking with L. It's a big. moose of a man. >> He's fast as [ __ ] He's built like an. Adonis. I mean, you gotta like if you're. betting I mean, I don't know what the. odds are, but the odds have to be. heavily in Anthony Joshua's favor. >> Are they? >> They have to be. He's an Olympic gold. medal. What are the odds? It's a. two-time heavyweight world champion. I. mean, >> let's both get hooked on gambling right. now. >> Yeah. Let's put that in DraftKings. Find. out what the odds are. If you bet on to.

win, let me guess. 10 to one. 10 to1 seems reasonable. >> I'm going to guess it's 17 to1. Yeah, that's even more reasonable. I'm I'm. trying to be polite. Maybe it should be. 30 to1. I mean, what was uh Buster. Douglas when he beat Mike Tyson? I think. was 42 to1. >> Jamie doesn't gamble. >> Yeah. I definitely don't. It's not. allowed in Texas. Uh he is a minus 10,000 favorite. >> You're right.

>> Yeah. >> 50 for Jake Paul. >> 10 to one, right? >> Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] That's a great bet. You got. to bet a thousand to win a hundred. >> Yeah, but you got to feel like you're. going to win. >> But but. >> if everything is normal. >> Joshua's Chinny though, man. >> Is he that chinny though? I mean, he. fought Inanu. >> There's a minus 10,000 favorite on that. card also. >> Who's the minus 10,000? >> Marley versus It's the very first fight, but Oh, >> minus 10,000 is an insane number.

>> Listen, my feeling is who knows what's. going to happen. It's a fight. Fights. are crazy. But if I had to guess, I. mean, you gotta lean towards the guy. who's a two-time heavyweight champion. >> Is that on that card, too? >> Yeah. >> Anderson Silver versus Tyron Wil. >> Interesting. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I gota kind of respect this this uh Jake. Paul kid. As much as it pains me to say. it, he takes two guys that he beat and. puts them on the card together. Listen, he also supported uh Ben Astro.

and Ben Astrid needed uh multiple or or. double lung transplant and his insurance. didn't cover it. He footed part of the. bill for that. >> Um I'll tell you what's going to be a. great fight. >> What? >> Shakur against Tapima Lopez. >> That's a very good fight. >> Yeah, it was. >> that's a very good fight. >> Uh Jay Prince and I were he you know. here's a kid that'll fight anyone. Literally the only other the only other. fighter that we've managed over all. these years that was like I don't care.

who it is. Put them in front of me. I. want the best was Andre Ward. >> Everyone else is chess playing. >> Shakur is like I want Javvante Davis. Timo. Get me the biggest name you can. And uh I just think that's going to be. an awesome fight. >> That's a phenomenal fight. >> That's at the Garden. >> When is that? >> January 31st. I would love for you to be. there. That'll be great. >> That's an exciting fight. >> Yeah. >> I'm super excited about that. We were. just up there for the press conference, me and Jay, and uh yeah, it's going to. be a good one. >> Yeah, two guys in their prime. I love.

it. >> I have a one more thing I want to throw. in here. Jelly Roll received a full. pardon today. >> Wow. >> Governor of Tennessee. >> [ __ ] yeah. >> Good. >> That's amazing. >> Yo, man, that moment on the show, >> what was it last week? Mhm. >> Man, I was a puddle. >> Yeah, >> that was so cool. >> He's an amazing person. That dude's lost. 300 lb. >> Let me see that. Let me see that picture. of him again.

>> Look at him. >> He looks He looks like a different. [ __ ]. >> Bro, he has different hands. He's got a different face, different. body, and we worked out together, man. He's He ran 2.6 miles on the treadmill. out there, and then we got in the sauna. together. He's [ __ ] great. He's uh. that that moment when he said, "Can I. hug you?". >> Yeah, >> that was beautiful. >> He's a beautiful person. Really is. And. you are too, brother. >> Good for him. Thank you, Brent. >> Thank you. >> Thank you as always, man. >> Thanks for being here. You're awesome. >> Appreciate you, bro. >> Appreciate you, too. Uh, goodbye.

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