Joe Rogan Experience #2419 - John Lisle

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. >> John, [music] what's happening, man? >> Not much. It's. >> very nice to meet you. >> You, too. Thanks for having me. >> Um, uh, I know you're in the middle of a. project. You're doing a project with. David Chase, right? That it's about MK. Ultra and. >> Yes. He has gotten the rights to this to. this book, you know, this book Project. Mind Control, and he's Yeah. interested.

in adapting it into a series. >> Well, I am endlessly fascinated with the. subject. So, as soon as I heard about. it, and they said the series is coming, but you could talk to the guy who wrote. the book now. I'm like, let's go. So, here we go. Project Mind Control, Sydney, Sydney Gotautleb, the CIA, and. the tragedy of MK Ultra, which really is. a tragedy. Um, you know, I uh really got. I mean, I knew about it, but I really. didn't get completely obsessed with it. until Chaos, Tom O'Neal's book. Have you. read that? >> Oh, yeah.

>> And uh when you realize what the MK. Ultra program involved and how long it. ran and how insane it is and it. essentially had no oversight and these. people were just running these wild mine. experiments on American citizens and. >> nobody went to jail for it. >> Yeah, that that's part of the crazy. thing. One of the things I I really try. to focus on in the book, especially the. second half in the of the book, are the. consequences [snorts] of MK Ultra in. society, but also just what happened to. these people afterwards. The victims of.

MK Ultra, they launched several lawsuits. against the CIA and basically really. nothing much came out of it. They got. paid a little bit of money, but the. people who perpetrated MK Ultra, >> they didn't really face any. consequences. And so I'm glad you. brought that up because one of the. things I really try to talk about in the. latter part of the book are what are the. failures of oversight that allowed this. to happen? How is that possible? How. could people within the CIA be doing. these kinds of drug experiments on. people unwittingly and yet never face. any hardly consequences for their. actions? So I' I'd delve into that.

pretty deeply. >> How did you get interested in the. subject? Like what was your in introdu. in introduction to it? I feel like my. introduction is a little bit different. probably from most people because I. didn't know that much about MK Ultra. Um, and I was doing my PhD at UT and I I. studied the history of science, but my. dissertation was on a group of. scientists within the intelligence. They. had connections to the intelligence. community. They were called the science. attaches out of the state department. The state department would send these. science attaches to different embassies,

American embassies around the world. And. the CIA was very interested in these. people because hey, we have these. scientists going abroad. Maybe they can. interrogate foreign scientists and. figure out what kind of research they're. doing. So that kind of led me into being. interested in scientists within the. intelligence community. >> And from that I learned about, you know, Sydney Gotautle, but also mostly my. initial interest was this man named. Stanley Levelvel who. >> was essentially the Sydney Gotautle of. the OSS. So prior to the CIA, the US had. the OSS, the office of strategic.

services during World War II and that. was the US kind of intelligence agency. and Stanley Levelvel was in charge of a. branch within the OSS called the. research and development branch. And. that was the branch that was composed of. a group of scientists whose job was to. basically invent the deadly weapons, create ingenious disguises, forge. documents for secret agents that are. sent abroad. So my first. >> fun stuff. >> Oh yeah. my my first book, The Dirty. Tricks Department, it's about Stanley. Levelvel and that group and one of the. things they do are drug experiments in.

truth drug experiments trying to find. out whether it's possible to give. someone, you know, a captured enemy. agent some kind of drug to make them. tell the truth during an interrogation. And it turns out when I was researching. that book, I came across a series of. depositions of which Sydney Gotautly is. one of the deponents who would later. lead MK Ultra. And in these depositions, he was talking about how when he was. assigned to be in charge of MK Ultra, he. didn't really know where to begin. He. didn't know anything about mind control. So, one of the things that he did, he. went into the old OSS files and was.

starting to look at the drug experiments. that Stanley Levelvel was doing. And so, I thought that's the connection between. Stanley Levelvel, my first book, and now. this one. So, that naturally led me into. becoming interested in MK Ultra. So, a a. lot of the things that Sydney got was up. to with MK Ultra, his blueprint was. basically Stanley level. Just imagine. being a government agency, the CIA, the. OSS, whatever it is, and then someone. says, "Hey, figure out if we can control. people's minds." And that's where you. start from, right? It's not like Sydney.

Gotautle was some expert hypnotist or. really was a psychologist or really. understood human minds. >> No, they they started a program going, "What can we do? How can we [ __ ] with. people's minds? How can we figure out. how to control people's minds?" And they. did it for decades. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> and they're probably still doing it now. >> Well, even before MK Ultra, so there are. a couple programs that precede it. I. mean, you know, so during World War II, the OSS was already doing truth drug. experiments. Not with LSD because that.

wasn't really around then, but with THC. acetate, they would inject it into. cigarettes and have people smoke it and. get high. >> They would get high and the truth. >> Well, >> supposedly. >> supposedly the idea [laughter] was that. it lowers their inhibitions and so maybe. they'll be more immunable to talking. >> Oh, that's hilarious. Just gave them. spliffs. Yeah, exactly. >> They basically gave him split. That's a. European smoke. >> Yeah. No. And and so one of the guys who. was actually on the truth drug committee. that was kind of overseeing these drug. experiments during World War II was. Harry Anslinger who of course is. launching this crusade against marijuana. and at the same time he's overseeing.

these experiments about dozing people. with THC. So it's very ironic that that. was the case. >> It's it's really stunning the kind of. damage those people did to just. our trust in government. what we, you. know, just what we know about these. psychedelic compounds and drugs and like. what they did with them that completely. changed our idea of what the future of. legalization and of all these there's. there's so much negative impact to what.

they did on top of what they did. They. essentially created Ted Kazinski. >> Well, I I'm I'm a little. >> Are you on the fence on that? >> I'm a little skeptical of whether MK. Ultra is connected to that. Well, it's. certainly Harvard and the LSD. experiments that did at Harvard. And I. don't imagine they would do that without. the involvement of the government. >> Yeah. Well, >> without them wanting to have access to. research. If you have people at Harvard. that doing like really critical LSD. studies on people, humiliation studies. >> Yeah. Well, with with him in particular, he he the the study that he was involved.

in was Henry Murray was the guy who was. running that is like a psychological. experiment about I think it was. interpersonal relationships where he. would basically interrogate them and. berate them and see how they reacted to. it. Now Henry Murray who ran that. experiment with Ted Kazinski, he did. have connections to the intelligence. community. I just am not convinced that. he had was funded by MK Ultra or. something. His connection, >> he has a couple of connections. One. connection that I mentioned in my first. book, the dirty tricks department, he. was tasked with creating psychological. profiles of German leaders like Hitler.

And so the idea was that he would kind. of figure out what their psychology was. and maybe we could find ways to exploit. that psychology. So Stanley Levelvel, who is the head of this R&D branch of. the OSS, he read Henry Murray's. psychological profile of Hitler and he. decided maybe I can figure out a way to. kind of drive Hitler crazy by using. this. So Henry Murray, Henry Murray said. that Hitler had a very feminine kind of. personality. He was on the border. between masculine and feminine. And you. know, at least that's what Henry Murray. is saying in this psychological profile.

Stanley level reads that and he thinks. maybe I can exploit this by getting one. of the gardeners near the Eagle Nest. where Hitler often had some meetings. There were some gardeners down there. We. can get an agent to slip a gardener some. female sex hormone and that gardener. [laughter]. that gardener can inject it into the. beets that are destined for Hitler's. plate. Hitler's going to eat it and it's. going to like exacerbate this feminine. tendency and it's going to make him go. crazy or something like that. That was. the plan that never went actually. happened but that so Henry Murray is. kind of connected to the OSS in that.

sense. And then later he develops some. personality tests for the OSS and CIA. I. believe it was for recruits to give. these to recruits to determine whether. they kind of have the psychological. profile file that would be amanable to. being in an intelligence organization. >> Did you re see that they recently uh did. a scan of some blood that was found in. Hitler's bunker and they determined that. he has a very unusual gene expression. Can you find out what that is? It's it's. something that would lead to him.

potentially having a micro penis. >> Yeah. Which is [laughter]. the, you know, like the most obvious. psychological profile ever. A guy wants. to destroy everything in the world. He's. got a tiny dick. Like. >> maybe Henry Murray was on to something. [laughter]. >> Look at Yeah, I'm sure he was. Hitler's. DN I'm sure there was something some. research behind it. Like somebody must. have said something about him. >> Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't heard of that. I. didn't know that. >> Hitler's DNA reveals Nazi leader likely. had syndrome that can affect genitals. Researchers say um according to the. Cleveland Clinic, the syndrome can.

disrupt the process that drives puberty. and manifest in symptoms that include uh. undescended testicles and a micropenis. Isn't that wild? >> Yeah, [laughter] it is. >> Which totally makes sense. Like we. should kill everyone with a micro penis. They're too dangerous. >> It is, you know, maybe uh useful to be. careful about correlation and causation. A lot of people probably have this and. that doesn't cause them people out. there. [laughter] I'm just kidding. Obviously, it was like the nicest people. out there that just happen to have a. micro penis and it actually, you know, maybe his temperament. I don't know.

>> Well, he was also on a bunch of drugs, you know, he had like a special doctor. that just worked for him. >> Those videos of him at sporting events. or whatever. He's like back and forth. It's incredible. >> 1936 Olympic just completely out of his. mind on something. Have you read Norman. O's book? Uh, >> Blitz. >> Blitz? Um, yes. I I don't know if I've. read the whole thing. I know I dipped. into it. I can't remember if I. >> It's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's insane. >> Yeah, it [laughter] is. >> That the entire Nazi army was methed out. of their minds. >> Yeah. And you know what these there are.

a lot of LSD experiments after World War. II within the CIA and MK Ultra, of. course, but also Army LSD experiments. that aren't really connected to MK. Ultra, so I don't go into them that much. in this book, but there are, you know, the British are doing LSD experiments on. their personnel. The US military does, too. And you know it it's just some of. the stories that come out of it are very. silly and really just insane. But there. were there is one document I found that. talks about how they were giving these. two army personnel, these two soldiers.

LSD to see how they reacted to it. And. so each each of them took the LSD. They. were in like a padded room isolated with. each other so nobody else was there. And. they started hallucinating. And one of. them pretended to like start smoking a. cigarette. And he didn't actually have a. cigarette. He had nothing, you know, but. he just pretended to smoke a cigarette. And the other guy was off in his own. world. And then the first guy, he. reached into his pocket and took out an. imaginary pack of cigarettes. He didn't. actually have one. It was just an empty. hand, but he was just hallucinating that. there was one. And he reached it out to. the other guy basically to offer, "Hey,

do you want a cigarette?" And the other. guy looked at it and he said, "No, I. couldn't take your last one." It was. [laughter] just an empty hand. There was. nothing. >> No, I couldn't take this shared. hallucination or something. >> Wow. Wow. I mean, also back then, we didn't really. know too much about that stuff. So, they. were kind of gathering information about. what would happen if you gave someone. LSD. >> Yep. That that was that's kind of the. motivation for MK Ultra in the first. place. There are several motivating.

factors. One of them is how do we get. prisoners to speak during an. interrogation? Maybe there's some maybe. there is some kind of truth drug that. can get them to tell us the secrets that. we want to know. Another is maybe we can. use this to discredit individuals like. Fidel Castro. Let's say we dose him with. LSD before a big speech. He appears to. be crazy and his people are going to. lose trust in him because he's he's. making nonsense. You know, he's just. talking gibberish. >> Was that proposed? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. That there were proposed. a plan to put LSD into cigars that would. sneak into Castro's kind of place that.

he would smoke before he gave a speech. >> What I don't understand about that is. they were trying to kill him. So if they. couldn't get poison into his cigars, why. do they think they could get acid? The. original plan was to discredit him and. then the later plan was to kill him. >> Yeah. So there were a couple original. plans to discredit him. One is to sneak. him LSD to make him appear insane so. that his people would lose faith in him. Another one was to slip what's called. thallium salts into his shoes. And these. are depilatories. They make your hair. fall out. And so the idea was that, you. know, he's got this mascul masculine.

allure with his big beard, but if we can. slip these dilatorries into his shoes. and he puts them on, his beard's going. to fall out and like Samson, he's going. to lose his power or something like. [laughter] that was the idea. So Sydney. Gotley was kind of involved in some of. these that I talk about in the book. Uh, another one, so you have the LSD, you. have the depilatory. Another one was to. photoshop images basically of Castro. with a bunch of beautiful women around. him and like a buffet of food in front. of him and to have a captain underneath. it that said, "My ration is different.". to indicate like I'm getting all the.

benefits of, you know, this uh you know, the spoils of society while my people. are going hungry. And so, you know, the. idea was to spread this around Cuba and. have people resent Castro for indulging. in all these. >> Well, that one's actually reasonable, >> right? >> A little bit more than the other two. >> That one's probably the closest to. accurate. >> Yeah. [snorts] So th those were attempts. to discredit Castro and then there were. several attempts to assassinate him that. Sydney got and others involved kind of. in this story do. So some of the main. assassination attempts on Castro. involved his hobby of ocean diving. So.

he liked to dive in the ocean. And one. idea was that what if we get this really. beautiful shell that he would just be. unable to pass up. It would be so. beautiful that if anyone swam by it, they would obviously want to pick it up. We pack the shell full of explosives and. put it on have some kind of trigger. mechanism for when you pick it up that. detonates the explosives. So when he's. underwater, he's going to swim by this. He's gonna see this beautiful shell. He's going to pick it up and it's going. to explode. But it turns out they they. couldn't really figure out a shell big. enough that would catch his interest,

you know? So that never happened. Another another concept with his scuba. diving hobby is that what if we gift him. a scuba diving suit? There are people. kind of negotiating for the return of. the Bay of Pigs prisoners. So, what if. we get one of those lawyers to gift. Castro a suit? And in that suit, we. would lace it with some kind of poison. or some kind of fungus that would cause. him to break out and what develop some. kind of disease. But it turns out the. guy that they wanted to give him the. suit had already given him a diving suit. and so it was like, "Oh, we can't use. him anymore." [laughter].

>> Wow. And they were the people running it. >> Yeah. >> That was the best they could do. >> Yeah. But it's just the concept of not. having any experience whatsoever in any. studies about mind control and just. given this assignment. What do you know. about mind control? What can we do? How. much does it work? What did the Nazis. learn during World War II? Because they. did a lot of experiments, right? >> They're doing a lot of experiments. And. it it is, you know, I mentioned the OSS.

is doing truth drug experiments. The. Nazis are doing truth drug experiments. in their concentration camps as well. And the British are doing some truth. drug experiments during World War II as. well. >> You can get the British ones online. The. the Well, at least the pro postWorld War. II ones. Was it [clears throat] 1950s? You can Have you seen the the British. LSD studies? Oh, you haven't seen it? >> Uh, no, I don't think. >> Oh, it's wonderful. You should watch it. We'll watch it real quick cuz it's kind. of hilarious. They start breaking out. They can't You have seen it? >> I think so. The soldiers all in a row. and some of them they start laughing. They're in the middle of doing their. task and they just start laughing.

uncontrollably and they sit down. >> Yeah. Well, do you know during I I. mentioned those like THC acetate. experiments during World War II? [laughter]. >> These guys are. >> giant smiles on their face. >> Yeah, >> this guy's having a guard go of it. >> Yeah, he he might have been having a a. downer or something. >> He had to be removed from the experiment. after 35 minutes. Look at the radio. operator trying to figure out how to. work it. [laughter] They just they're. just so confused. and eventually they just start laying.

down and just laugh like these guys. These guys just [laughter]. Yeah. in these these THC experiments. during World War I that guys um you for. some of the people they would give them. this THC they would smoke it through a. cigarette and you know some of the. reactions it talked about was it made. them just uncontrollably start laughing. and it put them in a good mood and like. some of the reactions were oh yeah I. mean they were just getting these people. high and they were reacting to. >> it didn't make them tell the truth. Oh,

no. >> Of course not. >> It it did actually make them talk more, though, because they they actually. recorded these interviews and they would. count the number of words per minute. that these people spoke. And it turns. out after they smoked this, they would. they would talk about like 40% more. words per minute. But it's not that this. guaranteed the truth. They were just. they were just talking. [laughter]. >> They just ramble. >> They're talking about cartoons. >> Yeah. [gasps] It's it just What other. drugs did they experiment with? Did they. experiment with amphetamines as. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So um one well I should. mention that MK Ultra was broken into.

149 sub projects. So. >> MK Ultra was the umbrella term and. within MK Ultra there were 149 sub. projects that were kind of farmed out to. in many cases independent researchers. who might be working at a hospital or a. prison or a university or something like. that. One of the main people who is. running these studies is a guy at named. Harris Isbel at the Lexington narcotic. farm. This is where drug drug addicts. could go um to get treatment for their. addiction. Prisoners could go there as. well. And whenever Sydney got found a.

drug that he was interested in, he would. basically just give it to Harris Isbel. who could try it out on these prisoners. to see how they reacted. And then Isbel. would write reports back to Gotautle. So. he tried psilocybin when that came out, LSD, but also stuff like I mean heroin. The CIA was particularly interested in. heroin because if you can induce an. addiction in a captured agent, let's. say, then you can use that as leverage. in interrogation, the the withdrawal. symptoms. So you get them addicted to. heroin and then use the withdrawal. symptoms saying, well, if you tell us.

about this, maybe I'll, you know, give. you a little. So that that was at least. the concept. But there were, I mean, dozens and dozens of different kinds of. drugs they were testing just to see how. people reacted to them, if and if any of. them could be used as a potential truth. drug. >> The heroin one actually makes sense. I. never thought of that. >> Yeah. Well, one of the one of the. ironies as well about this experiment. that I mentioned, you know, Harris's. bell and giving these prisoners all. these drugs. The prisoners are in this. place. It's called the narcotic farm. because they're supposed to be getting. off drugs. You know, they're they're. supposed to be, you know, curing them of.

their addiction. At the same time, they're giving them all these drugs to. test them out. And then as a reward for. participating in these trials, they had. two options. either they could get like. a positive letter in the parole board. and like a hundred bucks or something or. they could go to the drug bank window, stick out their arm and they would get a. needle full of heroin as a reward. They. were supposed to be getting off drugs. and yet you're incentivizing them to. participate in these drug trials by. giving them drugs. >> Wow.

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months. Use promo code switch 26 and. save beyond the season. It's a deal so. good you're gonna want to tell your. people. Switch now at. visible.com/roganogen. Terms apply. Limited time offers subject. to change. See visible.com for planned. features and network management details. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So that's one of 149 sub projects. >> [laughter]. >> Do are you aware that heroin was created. as uh it was a substitute for people.

that were addicted to morphine? >> No. No. >> Yeah. I think Google that that's. correct, right? Search that. I'm pretty. sure that's correct. Yeah. They they. came up with heroin to treat people that. were addicted to morphine. >> Which. [laughter] you know, well, that's like. oxy giving them oxycottton if they're. addicted to heroin. It's like the same. thing. >> Yeah. >> But getting someone addicted to that and.

then pulling it away from them seems. like it would be very effective in terms. of like getting getting them to give up. information. >> Yeah, that was the idea. And. >> so here it is. We put it into our. sponsor, Perplexity. Heroin created as a. morphine treatment originally developed. in the late 19th century as a medical. drug that was indeed marketed as an. improved non-addictive alternative to. morphine and as a cough suppressant. >> Hey, what do you know? >> Yeah. How nuts. Who uh what company came. up with it? German bear. There you go.

[ __ ] Bear. [laughter]. >> I think at the same time they were doing. this, they just um find out if it's true. that. acetime is what's toxic in Tylenol. Correct. I find out if it's true that at the same. time they decide that acetamophene was. too dangerous. >> I think that is Tylenol. What do you. mean? Yeah, I mean that the substance, you know, that's Tylenol is the name. brand. >> What's the question then? >> Um, did they Poor Jamie, if you hear his.

voice, ladies and gentlemen, inform the. people at home. Poor Jamie got a tooth. pulled last night. >> It was It's rough. And he not even Yeah. Excuse me. Last night you were in pain. Today you got a tooth pulled and he's. got what looks like a softball stuffed. in his cheek. >> Oh man. Um did they did bear decide not. to release acetaminophene during the. same time period? >> I during um the pandemic I got.

fascinated with acetamophene because I. read this horrible story about this poor. lady who got COVID and she was in real. pain. So she took a bunch of acetto she. took a bunch of Tylenol and kept taking. it and apparently didn't realize how. dangerous it is to overdose on Tylenol. and she died of liver poisoning. That's. true. >> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh my god, how. many people die of liver poisoning?". What's like 500 a year in this country? It's like acidamephin. It's scary stuff. [snorts]. Was not being actively held back by bear. at the same period that it promoted. heroin and aspen. It was simply not yet.

recognized or marketed the way those. drugs were. And it development adoption. followed a different path. Existing. historical accounts focus more on. scientific uncertainty and competing. drugs than on deliberate suppression. campaign by bear. I don't think I was I. don't think they were saying in this uh. article that I read that it was a uh. that they were suppressing it that they. decided not to uh focus on it because it. was dangerous. [snorts]. Why? Why acetaphin less? Early. clinicians favored fenicetine and aceta.

n how does that work? Is that a nylide? >> Acetanylide. Despite their later. recognized toxicity and instead. acetamophene's advantages, better safety. profile at therapeutic doses was not. clearly distinguished at first. >> Okay. Anyway, >> well, >> we're getting off track. >> One one Oh, I was just going to say one. of the uh ironic things too with some of. these MK Ultra sub projects, they're. interested in finding these supposed. truth drugs that could get someone to. tell the truth during an interrogation. But it turns out the even just the.

threat of giving someone a truth drug. turned out to be a lot more effective. than any drug that they actually tried. out. So for instance, in an. interrogation, if you tell someone that. this is a truth drug and I'm going to. give it to you and you know it's going. to make you tell the truth, >> that can lower their defenses in a bit. in a in the sense that the person who. takes this that that might give them. kind of the permission to be able to. talk because it makes them think, well, I couldn't have stopped myself. Well, you know, I mean, they gave me this. truth drug. of course I'm going to have. to say this so I can't be blamed. No.

one's going to blame me. So it takes. kind of the burden off their shoulders. if they think they've been given a truth. drug even if they haven't. Just give. them a sugar pill. So that actually. turned out to be a lot more effective. than any of the drugs that they actually. tried. >> That totally makes sense. >> They did the same thing with hypnotism. too. Um the hypnotism turned out to be. not that effective in at least in. interrogation. But if you could convince. someone that they had been hypnotized. even if they hadn't then that could be. effective. So for instance this is what. a guy called Martin Orin. He was one of. the psychologists who was one in charge. of one of these sub projects. Um but he.

he put forward what's called the. hypnotic situation. Not hypnotism but. the hypnotic situation. So for instance. you pretend to hypnotize someone the. person you're interrogating and they. know they're not hypnotized. They. obviously can tell that you know you're. not controlling me. This nothing's. happening. However, you start saying. things like you know I'm hypnotizing you. and your hands are getting warmer. And. they're going to think to themselves no. they're not. But under the table, you. secretly implanted a heater and that. their hands actually are getting warmer. because where they're sitting, there's. this heater under there that they don't.

know exists and it's making their hands. warmer. So after a certain period of. time, they start thinking to themselves, maybe I am being hypnotized. Like the. things that he's saying are actually. happening. And so if you can make them. think that they've been hypnotized, again, that lowers their um resistance. because I mean, who could blame me for. talking now? I've been hypnotized. I. couldn't help myself but talk. >> At least that's the idea. >> It's just so fascinating to me how much. time and effort was spent. just studying how to control people's. minds and and trying to come up with. ways to do it. >> Yeah,

>> it must have been really exciting to be. them. >> I mean, I think what they did is. horrible. I I don't you know, I'm not in. any way forgiving MK Ultra for what they. did. However, boy, it must have been fun. >> just to have no oversight. No one even. knows you exist. >> You You kind of get this impression by. looking at some of these MK Ultra. documents, especially at the beginning. before the Frank Olson in incident. Frank Olson eventually dies after one of. these experiments. And so that kind of. that definitely puts a damper on a lot. of things that are going on. Before that. though, I do get the sense that it's.

almost like they're a bunch of guys just. trying to, you know, play around with. each other in a way, even though what. they're doing is completely unethical. But they would just be dosing like the. CIA coffee pot and see what happens to. people who are taking drinks of it just. to to I mean their rationale is that. well if the Soviets possess some kind of. hallucinogenic drug and they were going. going to release it into the water. supply of a city we need to know how. people would react to that because we. need to know how to defend against that. Therefore we should be doing that to. people just to see how they react to it.

so that we know what kind of signs to. look for in case the Soviets do that. >> Didn't they dose up a town in France? Um, I don't think the CIA was connected. to that. I mean, I think it actually was. like an urgot poisoning that came from. the bread from the I think so. But yeah, there. >> but there was some speculation that it. was purposeful. >> Yeah, there the the town's called Point. Staspree, I believe. But yeah, there. were multiple dozens of people who came. down with hallucinogenic symptoms. They. were one guy stripped naked and started. running around the street. Multiple.

people died after this. Um, but that was. one of the things that led the CIA to. become really interested in. hallucinogens because if a poisoning. from a bakery could cause that much. havoc within this one French town, how. much more damaging would it be if the. Soviets did that to a city's water. supply? And so that that kind of lead. That's the justification. So they. starting the coffee pots and. >> and they're running brothel. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> That's the crazy one. Operation Midnight. Climax. Look it up, folks, because it's. really crazy. They they had their own. brothel and they would use two-way.

mirrors with cameras behind them and. they would dose the John's up. They'd. give him a drink. Would you like a. drink? Have a seat. And they go, "Sure, I'll have a drink." And this poor guy. getting off of work, has a drink, thinks. he's going to be with a prostitute and. have some nice sex. Next thing you know, he's just tripping out of his mind while. he's being recorded by Jolly West. >> Yeah. You know, the guy who actually ran. that is a guy named George White, and he. was involved in the OSS. So he was, you. know, I mentioned Stanley Levelville and. the THC acetate. George White was the.

guy who was hired to do that in the OSS. Then Sydney God when he's thinking, I. need to do these drug experiments for. myself. Who am I going to get it to to. do it for me? I need someone who has. connections to the underworld who has. criminal connections. George White was a. Bureau of Narcotics officer. And so. Gotautle was going through the OSS. files. And it turns out, oh, this guy's. already done these experiments. I'm. going to hire him. So that's how George. White eventually gets involved in the. CIA stuff. >> Wow. I can't wait for this show. >> [laughter]. >> cuz David Chase gets a hold of a subject. like this. This is good. There's so much.

room like it's so endlessly fascinating. >> Yeah, I'm I'm really excited. Obviously. for me, I mean it's just so lucky that. he happened to be interested in this. kind of topic. I mean there are a lot of. books out there on any number of topics. that anyone could be interested in. But. the fact that you know I mean I do. consider myself extremely lucky. I. happen to write this book at the right. time and someone happened to be. interested at the right time. So yeah, I. I can't wait for that to come out. >> Yeah, I'm I'm very happy that you did. write this book and I'm very happy that. this happening cuz I talk to people.

about this subject, you know, like. normies per se and they they look at you. sideways like what did they do? They do. what they're responsible for Manson. What? Huh? And it's like oh my god the. rabbit hole is so deep. I don't have. enough battery in my flashlight to take. you down this rabbit hole. >> That's one of the things with MK Ultra. just in general. I mean, initially. reading about this, my first impression. is that obviously that that's like a, you know, conspiracy theory or it can't. be right, but some conspiracies are. true. And the MK Ultra stuff, they.

actually did this. They were dosing. people, using prostitutes behind a. one-way mirror. George White sitting on. a toilet watching this happen there. You. know, I mean, even besides drugs, MK. Ultra is involved in a lot of. psychological experiments. So, not just. LSD. Most people associate MK Ultra with. LSD, but one of the one of the most uh. expansive of the sub projects is sub. project 68. It was by this guy named. Euan Cameron. Have you heard that name. before Cameron? Okay, you and Cameron. >> He is a psychiatrist up in Montreal in.

Canada working at what's called the. Allen Memorial Institute. And Gotle. wanted to expand MK Ultra besides drugs. because he already had a lot of people. doing drug experiments. So he wanted to. see if there were psychological. techniques that could be used to. manipulate a person. So not just in an. interrogation, but can we actually like. control a person's personality? Can we. make them behave in certain ways, make. them do something? So the idea that you. and Cameron had come up with before the. CIA is involved. Um I I should mention. you and Cameron is a behaviorist. So he. thinks that all behavior is a result of.

nurture, not nature. So it's it's the. environmental input that causes a person. to behave a certain way. And he thought. that if you could bring a person back. down to a blank slate, remove all the. environmental inputs that have been put. into them and then you can build them. back up in your image into whatever you. want them to be. So his idea to bring. someone down to the blank slate was to. induce enough stress that they forgot. who they formerly were. And so you. reduce them to the blank slate and then. the CIA is really interested in if you. could do that then you could form them.

into whatever. So you and Cameron, his. main goal is to try to figure out what. can induce enough stress in a person to. bring them down to that blank slate. And. so he performs a lot of experiments, his. most famous one is called psychic. driving where he was doing a a therapy. session, quote unquote therapy, with one. of his patients. And she had he was. recording the session and she said. something about how, you know, my mother. when I was young used to tell me blah. blah blah, you know, she said something. negative to her. And so you and Cameron.

rewinded that on the tape that he was. recording and made her listen back to it. and said, "Hey, I want you to listen. back to what you you say your mother. used to say to you." When he rewinded. the tape and played it forward, as soon. as the woman was kind of quoting her. mother and she listened to that herself. on the tape, she recoiled and Cameron. thought, "Oh, you have a negative. reaction to that." So he rewinded again. and again and again and he kept. rewinding it and she just got more and. more emotional, had this more and more. kind of visceral reaction to what she. was saying her mother used to tell her. So this led Cameron to develop the. concept of psychic driving which is you.

record some kind of negative message and. then you make someone listen to it for. thousands and thousands and thousands of. times for weeks on end for hours every. day all their waking day. They basically. are strapped into a headphone that is. playing this negative message and it. will break them down over time. That's. how you induce enough stress to break. them down to the blank slate and then. you can record a positive psychic. driving message to build them up into. whatever image you want them to be. So. that was his initial um idea. >> Was it based on anything? It it was just.

based on he had this one encounter with. this woman and she had a negative. reaction and he's just trying to induce. stress. This obviously seemed to induce. stress in her. Therefore, we're going to. start playing these negative tapes to. them. >> So it was just his idea. >> It's just his idea. He he was known for. doing this kind of thing like kind of. spur the moment. In fact, there was one. there was one kid basically who had been. at this Allen Memorial Institute where. you Cameron was. He had eventually had. gotten out, but he had tried to commit. suicide. And so he was sent back to the. Allen Memorial Institute. But the way. that he had tried to commit suicide was.

to close the garage and have the CO2. build up with a running car and then he. would, you know, breathe it in and pass. out and die. Um, that ended up not. working. However, when he went back to. the Allen Memorial Institute, Euan. Cameron thought, you know, his. personality seems like a little bit. better than it was that when he was here. before. Maybe CO2 can like influence. someone. And so so he sent out some of. his uh some of his assistants to go buy. like CO2 canisters and we're going to. start like giving this to people. But it. turns out the assistants knew that this. was like completely unethical. There's. no medical basis for anything. And so.

they lied to him and said, "Oh, the. canisters were way more expensive than. we could actually afford. So we can't do. that." But so he was he was just he was. trying to find any way that he could. have a breakthrough to cure mental. illness. And he was using his patients. as guinea pigs. >> Complete guinea pigs. >> Complete guinea pigs. What was the. result with the woman the the woman. where they played the negative. recordings? >> I don't Well, there are there are dozens. and dozens of people who that happened. to. I don't know about her in particular. cuz I don't know if she's actually named. in the documents. So, I don't I don't. know. >> Did any of these experiments have a.

positive effect? Did it work? >> Hardly. Hardly. Hardly. So, that that. was. >> I shouldn't even say positive. I should. say were they effective? >> No. No. For the most part, the people. who he did his practice on came out way. worse than when they went in. So psychic. driving, that's initially what got the. CIA interested in Cameron. So it's. important to keep in mind it's not that. the CIA told Cameron to do this. He's. doing this on his own because he thinks. he's going to cure mental illness by. having this radical breakthrough where. we break them down and build them back. up and we can build them back up and. make them forget their schizophrenia or.

depression or whatever they have. The. CIA reads his article about psychic. driving and they think this is the kind. of thing we're interested in. So from. that point on, they start funding him. not only to do psychic driving. experiments, but also he does um like. puts people in chemical comas for months. on end. And while they're in these. chemical comas, he would put a an audio. device next to their pillow playing. these psychic driving messages. >> And he would put them in sensory. deprivation chambers for weeks. You. know, they would have goggles over their.

eyes, ear muffs on their ears. They. would have cardboard tubes over their. arms so that they couldn't feel. anything. And they would just be in a. room for weeks on end. The idea again. being to induce enough stress so that it. breaks them down so that you can. eventually build them up. Um, but one of. the saddest stories in the book really. is of this woman named Mary Morrow who. is one of the patients of U and Cameron. in Montreal. The the sad thing about her especially. is she had been a resident in training. at the Allen Memorial Institute under.

you and Cameron. So she had been. training to be a doctor under him and. she had administered some of these. techniques including electric shock. So. that's one of the things too. We would. put these electrodes on the heads of. people and just he would continually. shock them until again the idea was to. reduce them to like in in one case he. says an infantile like state where they. lose control of their bladder, they. can't eat, they can't talk, they can't. go to the bathroom on their own, they. can't put on their own clothes or. anything like that. So she was in charge. of administering some of these um I mean. you know therapy sessions or whatever. they would call it, but just basically. torture to these pe people. She ended up.

um having almost kind of a psychotic. break herself. She she became anorexic. and she failed her neurology exams and. so she went into a really deep. depression. She attempted to commit. suicide that didn't work. She was. admitted to the hospital to another. hospital. You and Cameron came to visit. her and he said, "I think you should. come back to the Allen Memorial, not as. a doctor, but as a patient and let me. treat you." So, she ends up going back. to the Allen Memorial as a patient. And. she thought to herself that it's going.

to be okay. they're not going to do the. electric shock to me because you had to. sign a consent form in, you know, for. that to happen to you. You know, the. people who are signing the consent. forms, they don't know how bad it's. actually going to be. They're just. signing their name. But she knows I. haven't signed a consent form, so they. can't do that to me. But it turns out in. the time since she went to the hospital. and came back, they had stopped doing. the consent forms, and he would just do. this on whoever. And so they ended up. doing this electric shock treatment. treatment on her. And you know. afterwards she would be babbling, incontinent, couldn't put on her makeup. or clothes or anything. Eventually her.

she would call her mother after some of. these treatments and her mother knew. something was going on because she just. became more and more incoherent as time. went on. So the mother sent Mary's. sister Margaret in order to go to the. Allen Memorial to basically bust her out. of there. So the sister walked in the. front door and said, "I'm not leaving. until I see Mary. You know, I'm going to. call the police if you don't let me. through." So eventually she goes to her. sister's room, opens the door, and Mary. is sitting there just with wide bug. eyes, you know, doesn't even recognize. her sister. It takes several days for. her to figure out where she actually is,

and then she gets busted out of there. Um, so it's a very. >> Was it reversible in any way? Was it. >> um It's in her case, I'm not exactly. sure. She went on to have a little bit. of a career, but she eventually. attempted to commit suicide later. Again, that was unsuccessful. than her. and several of the victims of Yu and. Cameron's experiments in the 1980s they. ended up suing the CIA for supporting. you and Cameron. And during those. lawsuits, the attorneys who are. representing them, they took the. depositions of several of the people who.

were involved in MK Ultra to try to use. this during their trial. So they took. the depositions of Sydney Gotley, Robert. Lashbrook, Richard Helms, the head of. the CIA, and many of the victims who. were victims of all this. And that's. basically the basis for my book. I found. thousands of pages of these depositions. That's just verbatim transcript of these. people talking about either what they. did or what was done to them. And so I'm. using that throughout the book to. explain here's what they're doing in. their own words or here's what was done. to them in their own words. >> Wow. Well, so what was the result of the. trial? >> Oh, well, so it was actually settled out.

of court before it went to trial. So the. plaintiffs, the CIA gave the plaintiffs. $750,000. to be split among them, but you know, after attorneys fees and everything, it. doesn't really amount to much anyway. And so, >> you know, they settle out of court, they. got a little bit of money, but it never. went to trial. And so the these. depositions, though, you know, since it. never went to trial, these were just in. the papers of Joseph Ralph, who's the. main lawyer who is involved in this. case. And when he passed away, his his. papers were donated to the Library of. Congress that had all these thousands of.

pages of depositions in there, 823 pages. of which are Sydney got testifying about. what he did in MK Ultra. And so I was. rooting around the Library of Congress. and happened to find them. So that's how. I found basically the basis for what. this book is. >> Wow. Wow. I wonder how much of that. woman's psychological breakdown had to. do with the guilt of performing those. experiments on people and realizing that. it wasn't doing anything that he thought. you and Cameron thought it was going to. do. In fact, it was destroying people's. minds.

>> Yeah, maybe some I mean it's just. speculation cuz I'm not sure, but that. had to have weighed on the consciences. You know, there's in what was called the. sleep room. You and Cameron's sleep. room. This is where they would do the. chemical comas. the one of the nurses I. have kind of uh her. diary entries basically describing what. she was seeing and she does seem to be. pretty reluctant to have done what she. was actually doing. And you and Cameron, she said, would often come over to her. and pat her on the back and say, you. know, you're helping these people. You're helping these people. Just trying. to coax her along to go along with what.

he was telling her to do. >> You and Cameron seems like like a. complete madman. Like he was an it. almost like too good to be true. Not too. too good, but too too like mad scientist. to be true. Was he on any sort of drugs? >> I I mean, I've never seen anything to. indicate that he was on drugs, but he. definitely had a almost like a messiah. complex. He thought, I'm going to be the. one to win the Nobel Prize in medicine. because I'm going to cure all mental. illness through this psychic driving or. whatever it was. He was going to be the. next Sigman Freud. He really had.

delusions of grandeur just like I think. Jolly West did as well. And so, I think. that drove a lot of what he was doing. his patients were just a means to his. own end. They they're they're the guinea. pigs that I can use to prove that these. medical techniques actually work and. therefore everyone's going to praise me. because I've cured, you know, schizophrenia or whatever it is. I have. just I'm just always suspicious of. something that has that someone has that. kind of access to all sorts of compounds. >> like and then you're experimenting on. people and you know especially with.

things like amphetamines which do tend. to make people a little less empathetic. and a little more driven. >> you know I I would be very curious to. see if he was interested in anything. like that. Yeah, I don't remember. specifically for him in that case. Um. there I mean many of the people who are. either running the sub projects or um. approving them like Sydney Godly Godly. took a lot of LSD. He you know he was. when the CIA got LSD before it gave it. to other people the first thing they did. was try it for themselves to see what. actually happened. So Sydney Godly took. it multiple times before he ever even.

gave it to people to understand what it. was like. >> Wow. And you know, one of the the. physician who was the attending. physician the first time he took LSD. because they did it in kind of a. controlled setting with several other. people there, a guy named Harold. Abramson. And for anyone listening who. knows much about the Frank Olsen. incident, Frank Olsen is a guy that. would later be dosed with LSD. He would. go out the hotel window in New York. And. Harold Abramson is the guy who Sydney. Gotautle and Robert Lashbrook, they took.

to New York to get treatment from Harold. Abramson afterwards. So he had this CIA. connection. >> Wow. The the reason why I brought up. amphetamines is because uh I I feel like. >> it might be the one of the unheralded or. undisussed drivers in a lot of like. psychopathic behavior that we see in our. culture today. >> I think there's there's [clears throat]. a lot of people on prescribed. amphetamines that operate in a way that. is is is very very much like a.

functional. >> methhead. You know what I mean? And I. would wonder like if you were in charge. of doing something this evil, just. running experiments where you're. destroying people's minds and you're. getting no positive results. None of. it's working. Yet you continue to do it. And you even do it to people that used. to be involved in the program with that. poor woman. Like what what's the. psychological profile of that guy? Because he's obviously mentally ill, which is fascinating, right? It's. fascinating that a mentally ill person. is working on a mind experiment program.

>> because there's no way he's not mentally. ill. like to have no empathy to these. people that you've tried all this stuff. on. And not only has it not been. effective and not rid them of mental. illness, it's made them far worse. >> Yeah. For Yeah. For you and Cameron, he. uh I feel like he definitely lacked. empathy, whether that's some kind of. medically medical thing or whatever. There there are a couple people in the. book, I think, who are like that. One of. them is you and Cameron. Another is. George White, who is in charge of. Operation Midnight Climax. He he was in. it just for the fun of it. He would he.

would dose his own friends with LSD just. to see what would happen. You know, there's there's one story in the book. There was a woman who had gone over to a. dinner party. Basically, she had. actually gone over with her husband a. few weeks before, but George White. didn't dose them because the husband was. there. The husband went away on a. business trip. So, the woman and her. friend, she they ended up going to see. George White to hang out. And White. dosed them with LSD. The woman had her. one-year-old son there with her, but he. still dosed them with LSD. She ends up. basically going crazy. I mean, she, you.

know, she goes home, she ends up. calling, you know, George White, asking. what's happened to me, what's going on? Um, one of these women, she ended up. being committed to a mental institution. for basically the rest of her life after. this happened to her. So, she had some. kind of like psychotic break after this. unwitting, surreptitious dose of LSD. Of. course, she didn't know what was going. on. So, she thought her whole world was. collapsing. Yeah. She she lost her. husband. It was said that she would. cower in the corner of her parents, you. know, uh, house before she went to this. mental institution, convinced that an.

unidentified they was like looking after. her or trying to get her, you know, calling on the phone. None of this was. happening, but she was just having these. delusions that someone was out to get. her. That's kind of a recurring theme. that you see in these people who are. unwittingly dosed. >> One of them, one of the saddest stories. in the book is a guy named Wayne Richie. And George White did the same thing to. him. But um Wayne Richie was this he was. a guard at Alcatraz for a while. This is. in San Francisco. And he had gone to a. Christmas party at the post office there.

in San Francisco just for you know he. was a US marshal too. So just the US. marshals whatever. And that night he was. drinking you know some of the punch at. this party and he started feeling very. strange. He started seeing colors. The. room started spinning around him. He. ended up going upstairs to where his. locker was and, you know, getting his. things and he wound up going home. because he didn't, you know, know what. was going on. When he got home, his. girlfriend was upset at him. She said. that, you know, I'm not happy here. I. want to move to New York. And so when. he's in this fog, he decides, I know how.

to set my life on track. I'm going to. grab a couple of my service revolver. revolvers. I'm going to go to a bar. downtown. I'm gonna rob it and I'm gonna. give the money to my girlfriend so she. can go to New York and she'll be happy. and so she won't break up with me. So. when he's in this fog, he ends up doing. all this. He gets his revolvers. He goes. to a bar downtown. He, you know, basically has a stick up. Give me all. the money in the till. A quick thinking. patron who's sitting next to him, basically gets the mug of beer and. smashes it over his head. So he falls. down. The cops come later. They arrest.

him. He's in jail. After a day or two, he kind of soers up and kind of awakens. from this fog and he doesn't know what. happened to him at at that point. He. ends up losing his job, losing his. friends. For the next 30, 40 years, he. doesn't know what happened until in. 1999. He was reading the Washington Post. and he saw an article describing MK. Ultra and two things in particular stuck. out to him. One was George White whom he. knew back in the days when he was a US. marshal marshal and the other one was a.

description of LSD. And so Wayne Richie. starts putting all this together and. thinking, I think George White gave me. LSD that night at the holiday, you know, party and spike the punch bowl. And. that's what happened. And it turns out, you can see in this book in the in the. photo section, the last photo in the. photo section of my book, it's a image. of George White's diary from the day. that Wayne Richie went insane. And it. says federal building Christmas party. So he was there at the Christmas party. >> Wow. Imagine being that guy reading that.

article 30 years later and realizing. this guy ruined my life. >> for fun. >> Yeah. So he he ended up suing the CIA, but the judge said that he couldn't. prove that he had been dosed with drugs, so they couldn't rule in his favor. And. so that was it. >> Oh Jesus. >> Yeah. But there are I mean there are. dozens of stories like that. >> What a [ __ ] psycho. >> What a [ __ ] psycho. Just dosing up. the punch bowl, ruining lives. and and. he knows how messed up it is because by.

that point he had done this to multiple. people and called them and caused them. to to to lose a lot, you know, so he he. knew what he was doing at that point. Um. >> God, that this is just what happens with. people when they have that kind of. unchecked power and no oversight. >> Yeah. >> And they're the kind of psychopaths that. would be involved in this sort of. experimentation in the first place. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. So, so I think he's. probably the most um heinous of the. individuals in this book. All of them. are to a degree. Sydney Gotautle um I.

think he I I don't think he's as heinous. in the sense that he's like. intentionally trying to harm people. He. thinks he's doing this for a patriotic. reason. He thinks MK Ultra is actually. going to help us defend ourselves. against the Soviet Union. There is some. like moral justification, at least he. has for himself. So, it's not all just, you know, whatever George White is. doing. Um, but at the same time, Sydney. Gotautle doesn't really take any. responsibility for what happens to these. people. Basically, the way that MK Ultra.

was structured with these sub projects, Sydney Gotautle wasn't running these. experiments himself. What he would do is. he would fund other people to do. experiments. And most of the time, these. people were experts in their own field. So, they were like reputable people. Euan Cameron was the head of the. American Psychiatric Association, the. Canadian Psychiatric Association, and. the World Psychiatric Association. He. was like the most famous psych. psychiatrist in the world and he was. being funded by this. So Sydney got. thought well if I can fund reputable. psychiatrists or drug researchers to do.

these experiments then it's up to them. to provide the safety and the procedures. you know for to keep these patients. safe. It's not my job. They're the ones. who are conducting the experiments. That's how he justified it to himself. But that's how the structure of MK Ultra. typically worked. >> Such a diffusion of responsibility. >> Exactly. Got is funding people and he's. not even funding them directly in most. cases. What's happening is he's using. cutout organizations. So he's giving the. money to of course. >> the one of them's called the geter fund, one of them is called the the National. Institutes of Mental Health and then the.

CIA sets sets up its own cutout. organization called the Society for the. Investigation of Human Ecology, which is. [laughter] just a it's just a madeup. organization. But um so the the CIA. would transfer the funds to the society. who would then transfer it to the. researcher. In many cases, the. researchers didn't even know they were. being funded by the CIA. They just. thought, "Oh, I got a grant from this. organization. That's great." So, they. don't even know that their true patron. is Sydney Gotly and MK Ultra. They just. know, "Oh, they want me to do these. experiments." And in many cases, they're.

allowed to still publish their work, you. know. So, you know, they're publishing. this. Nothing's changed that much from. what they were doing before. Um, but it. turns out their patron is actually the. CIA who wants to make sure they continue. doing these experiments just in case. they find something that could be of. use. >> Oh my god. What was your journey personally like. both researching these subjects and and. then writing books about it? Because. what what how how what what was your. opinion on all these things before this. and how much of it how how much of it.

has shaped your worldview? >> Um so with the. probably the first book is more. formative to the shaping of my worldview. just because you know I that was the. first one I did. So what what was your. perspective before getting involved in. any of this material? >> Well, I I'm pretty much uh I would. consider myself a skeptic generally, you. know, so when stuff gets a little too. outlandish, I I am pretty skeptical. Um. but of course that the existence of MK. Ultra and even in my first book, The.

Dirty Tricks Department, there are some. there are some projects that are even. more outlandish than some of the stuff. I've been talking about with MK Ultra. And so that kind of lowered my barriers. to thinking that, oh, people are crazy. here. Like, oh, the the government does. actually perform these crazy, you know, projects. One one of the one of the ones. that really lowered my barriers to that. for the first book was called Operation. Fantasia. And again, it's just a testament to the. absurdity of some of the ideas that were. happening in World War II and with just. within the intelligence community.

Operation Fantasia was the brainchild of. this guy named Ed Salinger and he had. been a businessman who had done imports. and exports with Tokyo in Tokyo. So he. knew Japanese culture, he knew the. language, he knew the religious beliefs. The OSS wanted to exploit that by trying. to find a way we can we can demoralize. the Japanese. You know a lot about the. Japanese psyche. The idea was Ed. Salinger. So figure out a way we can. demoralize the Japanese and make them. basically give up this war because you. know they're dug in. and they're not. giving up. We need to find a way that we.

can basically use psychological warfare. on them. So his idea is that in the. Shinto religion, there are these kind of. mystical figures called kitsuni. And in. many cases, they take the form of like a. fox, a glowing fox. And oftentimes they. represent portants of doom. So you know, if you see one of these kits, it's an. indication that something bad is about. to happen. And so Salinger knew, what if. we can artificially create Kitsuni, spread them around Japan, then all these. Japanese soldiers are going to see them.

and think, oh, that's a portant of doom. Surely it means we're going to lose the. war. Therefore, we might as well lay. down down our arms right now. And so. Salinger, initially, his idea is we're. going to create whistles that can make. fox sounds and we're going to distribute. them across Japan to our agents there. and they can blow these whistles like. anyone would recognize a fox sound. He. he had the idea that we're going to. create artificial fox odors and spread. it around places and people are going to. think that it's the kitsuni foxes that. are walking around. None of those ever. materialized. But then he thought, what. if we actually do it? What if we capture.

foxes from China and Australia? We paint. them with glowing radioactive paint and. then we [laughter]. and then we drop them in Japan. Surely. that's going to scare the Japanese. >> So there actually several experiments go. that they did this. So they captured. foxes. The United States Radium. Corporation produced a paint with. radium, radioactive, but. >> so loom from like dials of watches. >> Exactly. It's the same kind of thing. It. glowed in the So they decided we're. going to paint foxes with this. But they. first needed to test whether it's.

possible to paint fur with this and it. stay on. So they went to the Central. Park Zoo and they got a raccoon and they. painted it and kept it under lock and. key. And it turns out after a few days. of ordinary raccoon shenanigans, the. paint stayed on. So they thought, "Okay, this might have something going for it.". So then Salinger decided, we're going to. paint these foxes, row them out into the. middle of the Chesapeake Bay, and throw. them overboard to see if they can. actually swim to shore because if we're. going to get these foxes to Japan, we're. going to have to throw them off the. coast, and they're going to have to swim. and then scare people. But can foxes. even swim? He didn't know. So he gets.

these foxes, he paints them with this. paint, he throws them in the middle of. the Chesapeake Bay, and it turns out. they actually swam to shore. So that. worked. However, by the time they had. gotten to shore, the paint had all. washed off. And so they poison the. water. >> Well, yeah. So it's like if we were to. do this in Japan, the paints it just you. see a fox. It's not a katuni. It has to. be a glowing fox. And so he decided, well, that's not going to work. So his. next plan, this is this is one of the. craziest things I found from my first. book. The next plan was, we are going to. stuff a fox, a dead fox, just.

taxiderermy it. Have this fox body. We're going to paint it with this. glowing paint. We can drape a cloth over. it and paint glowing bones on it to make. it look like a skeleton. and we're going. to put a human skull over this fox head. to make it look as if it's a human skull. because apparently this was like an even. more potent version of the Kitsuni myth. that was going around in Japan. So, we're going to put this human skull on. this taxonomy glowing fox. We're going. to have the jaw open and close as if. it's talking and we're going to blast. propaganda out of the skull and we're. going to attach balloons to it so that.

it can fly over Japan. the Japanese are. going to look up and see this flying. glowing radioactive fox spreading this. propaganda and they're apparently going. to lay down their arms. I guess that was. the plan. And so that was his his. ultimate idea of what we can do to. >> Did they launch that? [laughter] Did. they attempt it? >> That that never actually made it. About. the time that he was writing all this up. and doing these experiments, the. Manhattan Project had performed the. Trinity test and so was like, well, we. already have the weapon that's going to. win the war, so we don't need the. glowing foxes. Thank you very much. >> Wow. Oh, do you know about the three T's.

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sudden it's like, well, anything is kind. of possible. [laughter]. >> The problem is most people haven't. researched it. So, when you're having. conversations with people, like I've. always been conspiratorally minded, but. more in the fun side, like Bigfoot, UFOs, dumb stuff as a distraction. Like, I know what it is. I I'm interested. because it's silly, you know, and I just. find it fun. Like the Bigfoot thing is. my I watched a Bigfoot documentary the. other night against my own better. judgment and now my YouTube algorithm is.

filled with Bigfoot stories. It's just. the dumbest thing ever. But. >> yeah, >> when I started doing the podcast, it. slowly shifted my perspective of not. only are there real conspiracies, but. they're way more prevalent than you. would ever think. And you you almost. have to get lucky to find out about. them. You know, like one of the things. from the book Chaos was Tom O'Neal. describing some of the documents that. were discovered in God, I believe it was.

a storage unit. >> that where they they had some. >> like the MK Ultra documents. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that story? >> Yeah, that's a big part of my my book. So in 1975. or so, really in 1974, there's something. called the Rockefeller Commission and. that was an executive commission set up. to investigate past abuses of the. intelligence community. And that kind of. led to the Church Committee in 1975 and. and also the Pike Committee in the. House. But after they published their. final reports, those reports included.

things about MK Ultra that the US. government had performed these secret. drug experiments in the past. And that. led a former State Department employee. named John Marx to file a Freedom of. Information Act request basically for. any and all documents related to these. former drug experiments. And so, you. know, not too long afterwards, this. a CIA um this guy named Frank Lainger, he was he was working in like the CIA. archives, but he discovered these six or. seven boxes of material that Sydney.

Gotautle hadn't destroyed when he. retired from the CIA because Gotautle. incinerated most of his files and so did. Richard Helms. They they were in on this. together. But it turns out those boxes. escaped the destruction because they had. sent been sent to the CIA record center. several years before Gotautle and Helms. retired. Therefore, they weren't. incinerated in this purge and so they. survived. So Markx filed that. information request. These boxes were. found and then they were released. And. this was right around the time that. there were a couple of subcommittee.

hearings on MK Ultra and that's right. when all these documents came out too. So it became kind of a big deal. But so. that's how thousands and thousands of. documents related to MK Ultra survived. even though Gotautly and Helms. incinerated most of the files that they. actually had. >> Which leads you to consider what would. we know if those documents hadn't been. discovered? >> Yeah, >> we would be decades behind on this. >> Yeah, they they do reveal a lot of. information. That said, we can actually. kind of run this scenario because we do.

know what we kind of knew before those. documents were released. So before those. documents were released, you still had. the Rockefeller Commission and the. Church Committee and a few other things, but um so we we would have known still. because it came out before those. documents about the Frank Olsson. incident. This guy was dosed with LSD at. this place called Deep Creek and he. ended up going out the window of the. Statler Hotel in New York. He died. We. would have known about Operation. Midnight Climax, even though I don't. know if that name was specifically used. within these committee publications. So. we would have known.

>> Such a great name. [laughter]. >> Well, that's George White's doing. Is. it? >> Sydney Gotautle said he had a flare with. a pen. Like he he was a journalist. before he psycho. >> Yeah. Yeah, he was. In fact, while we're. on that topic, at the end of Operation. Midnight Climax, he wrote a letter to. Sydney Gotautle basically thanking him. for supporting me for all these years. Out of all the MK Ultra sub projects, you know, a lot of them started in 1953. Many of them were done by 1963, but. several continued into the late60s. But. he after this was done, he wrote a. letter to Sydney Gotautle. And in the.

depositions that I found, the attorneys. confront Gotautle about this and they. ask him what was in that letter. And. Gotautle says, "Oh, you know, he he had. a flare for writing. You can't trust. anything he said." But they No, what was. in it? Turns out what was in it. George. White wrote, "I toiled in the vineyards. wholeheartedly because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red-blooded. American boy lie, cheat, steal, rape, and pillage with a sanction and blessing. of the all highest?". [sighs]. And he wrote that down. >> Yeah. [laughter]. God. [sighs]. >> Yeah. So, we we we we would have known.

about the Frank Olson incident. We would. have known about Operation Midnight. Climax, though maybe not that name. We. would have known the broad outlines of. MK Ultra because that was already le. released before those files. But the. files give us a really detailed view of. what happened, >> but we don't know what was in the files. that were incinerated. >> That's correct. Yeah. >> I imagine that. Yeah, we we kind of do. know a little bit about what was in them. because there was an investigation that. was done afterwards because it was. illegal for them to destroy these files.

Not that anything ever happened to them. They didn't face any consequences for. it. However, God's secretary, this woman. who had only been working for him for a. few weeks before he retired, he told her. to basically incinerate these files, you. know, to help him do this. So, she. didn't know it was against protocol or. whatever. She was new to the job. But. she was interviewed later as part of a. CIA investigation into the destruction. of the files. And she does say a little. bit about what she thinks were in the. files. She says it was some of his. personal papers and there was secret and. secret sensitive files in there. We.

don't have really have a great idea. about what it could be. Although I do. think a lot of the files were in the. depositions that I found, George White. or Sydney got says that George White. would write to him personal updates. about the experiments that he was doing. in these, you know, brothel basically. And so I'm I'm assuming that a lot of. those files consisted of George White's. personal reports on what was going on. [sighs]. Now, when you get deeper and deeper into.

this stuff, how much has it shaped your. worldview? >> Um, a a decent amount in the sense that. ju just as it did for. kind of the American public in general. in the 1970s when this was coming out. It really led people to cast a skeptical. eye toward the government and thinking. it's just assumed that the government is. supposed to be the protector of civil. civil liberties. But after Watergate, after MK Ultra, after the Vietnam War, it starts to seem as if the government.

is infringing on those civil liberties, you know, instead of being the protector. of it. In many cases, it's infringing on. them. Um, not that it doesn't protect. civil liberties, but one of the main. things that I came away after writing. this book is the problem of oversight. You know, I think the the constitutional. system of government that we have is. ingenious. The fact that we have checks. and balances and these the separation of. powers. However, you have to enable the. separate branches of government to be. able to check the other branches. For.

most of the Cold War, that external. check on the executive branch, the the. like Congress checking the executive, the president or the CIA didn't really. exist. Um, so anytime that the CIA was. doing an operation, I have a chapter. about this, but you know, sometimes the. CIA personnel would try to inform. members of Congress of what they were. doing. I have one specific quote where a. CIA guy walks up to a sitting senator. and says, "Hey, let me tell you about. what we're doing in Chile or whatever it. is and he says,"No, I don't want to hear. it. Don't tell me. Just do what you're.

going to do." He doesn't even want to. know. So, it's like, how can you expect. Congress to give oversight to the. executive if they are completely. unwilling to even know what the. executive is doing? So fortunately in. the aftermath of these revelations there. have been some. um some programs or committees that are. set up within Congress to provide that. external check. However, it's you know. it's not even clear how effective those. are. Um for one one check on the. executive after this is that the.

president now has to um sign off. basically on covert operations. So that. that eliminates the president's. plausible deniability. One of the main. themes throughout this book is that is. what I call this uh the vicious cycle of. secrecy. So an organization like the CIA. that has secrecy that kind of leads to. what I I see as this vicious cycle. Secrecy leads to plausible deniability. because if it's secret, nobody can know. that I'm doing this. Therefore, I'm not. going to be blamed for it. So secrecy. leads to plausible deniability. Plausible deniability leads to reckless.

behavior like MK Ultra. If nobody's. going to find out what I'm doing, therefore I'm incentivized to do some. crazy stuff because I'm not going to be. held accountable for it. So secrecy to. plausible deniability, plausible. deniability to reckless behavior. Reckless behavior in many instances. leads to embarrassment. It's almost. inevitable for many of these projects. that they get found out. Someone leaks. something to the press. This is how the. family jewels that the CIA had that was. like a compilation of all the illegal. stuff that it had done over the past. couple of decades. It eventually got.

leaked to Seymour Hirs who published it. on the front page of the New York Times. So reckless behavior leads to. embarrassment, but embarrassment leads. to secrecy because now that we've been. found out, we got to make sure that. never happens again. We need more. secrecy. And the vicious cycle. continues. So if you can break that. vicious cycle by having some kind of. external check, that's what you actually. need. Like an empowered Congress that is. willing to check the executive. So. >> and then you realize, well, who's running against them? Who. wants that job? Not a lot of impressive.

people, a lot of really driven, successful, intelligent people are. involved in other activities that. consume their time. They have families. They have careers. They have a lot. They. don't have the desire to be a. congressperson. So, you're not getting. the cream of the crop. You're not even. getting anything remotely similar to the. cream of the crop. You're occasionally. getting great people that really want to. serve the country, but that is rare. That is that is like I wouldn't say. rare, but if 20% of the food you ate at.

a place was poison, would you go eat at. that place? >> No, >> you would not, right? You would say I'm. assuming there's [ __ ] poison in that. place. That's Congress. >> Yeah. And you know, >> that's elected officials. >> Yeah. And Andrew Yang has made this. point before. I know I've heard him say. it, that the re-election rate of. Congress is super high. It's like 80 90%. whatever it is. The approval rating for. Congress is like in the teens. So, how. is it we have such a divergence between. the re-election rate and the approval. rating? It has to do with the in the the.

kind of electoral system, you know, the. people who are incentivized to actually. run for Congress. In many cases, they're. the most ideological on either side. because the only race that matters is. actually the primary because if you're. in a, you know, a district that is 90%. Trump voters, the Republican is going to. win the general election. It doesn't. matter who it is. So, you know, the the. primary is the the main election that. happens in those districts. And if. that's the case, well, the person who. can win the primary is going to win the. general. And who's going to win the. primary? Well, it's going to win it's.

going to be the person who can get 90%. of Trump voters to be more interested in. them than whoever the other Republican, you know, is. In many cases that drives. ideological extremism because you know. you're you're already selecting a sample. size of voters within the primary who. are the most ideological extreme and so. they're going to elect basically whoever. it is because the general election is a. foregone conclusion. So, if you can. realign the electoral system in a way to. where you I mean I don't know the the.

answer to this, but it would be some. kind of open primaries or ranked voting. or proportional representation, ending. gerrymandering, something like that, then you better incentivize Congress. people to actually want the job or. incentivize people who would be good at. the job to engage in the job or to to to. become Congress people because they. actually have a clear path to doing it. because they're not going to be blocked. in the primary. So some kind of reform. like that I think is how you better um. facilitate this check between the.

different branches. >> And but even then I don't know if it. motivates the cream of the crop because. I just I think most people would rather. be on the outside like most wealthy. people that are successful they'd rather. fund a candidate that you know suits. their needs. >> Yeah. Well getting maybe big money out. of politics. >> That would be wonderful. That would be. one. I mean, that would be the single. probably biggest help. And then also. getting out insider trading out of. Congress. Make it less like when you're. finding out that people are getting.

$170,000 [clears throat]. a year and they're worth hundreds of. millions of dollars and there's no. investigation whatsoever. Like what did. you do? What did you do? And why are you. still working? If you're so good at. trading, why are you working for. $170,000 a year, which is a great. salary, don't get me wrong. >> I'd take it. Nothing wrong with $170,000. a year, but when you have $400 million. >> Yeah. >> like you couldn't get me to do a job for. $170,000 a year. Like I don't have the. time. >> You could get me to do. >> right. But you know what I'm saying? Like you can get Congress people to.

still show up and do that job. Is it. because they care that much about the. American people? Well, that doesn't. really jive. It doesn't make sense. because they seem completely full of. [ __ ] when they give their speeches and. they it's all canned and fake and. insincere and there's no you you you. don't have any real connection with. their words. So what are they? They're. they're these weird people that have. accepted this job that no one wants. That's critically important to the. function of our government. And you're. getting really dull people that are. taking this job. It's fascinating. One. of the things um that also was like so.

disheartening, I had uh Rep. Luna on the. podcast who was great and she's ve very. interesting and she we mostly were. talking about UFOs because that's the. thing that she's involved in. Um, but. one of the things she said about certain. issues is they don't want to solve these. issues because this is how they. >> they run they they can fund raise off of. it. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I was like, "Oh, no.". Like just that trap. I was like, "Oh, no." I I didn't want to think that that. is the case. And she's like, "Oh, that's.

it. That's 100% it." Yeah. They don't. want to fix it. that I mean that makes. me even more convinced though that a. restructuring of the electoral system in. a way that you know eliminates um I. don't know that incentivizes basically. better behavior whether that's through. open primaries, rank choice voting, whatever. Yeah, >> that has to help in some way I would. think. So. >> well there should also be some sort of a. competency test if someone wants to take. that position. Like if you want to be a. lawyer you have to look at poor Kim. Kardashian. She can't pass the bar and.

she's trying so hard. She keeps I can't. pass the bar. It's hard. It's hard to be. a lawyer. >> I I am kind of skeptical of a competency. competency test in a sense though. because someone has to write the test, you know. >> Well, not not only that, but are you. watching them? Do they use Chad GPT? And. we're living in a weird world right now, you know. It's it's a very weird world. of technology and. >> you know, but it would be nice if you. knew that this person was capable of. doing the job. Yeah. I mean, I bring it. back to the the passing the bar thing. because, you know, law is very.

complicated. One of the things that I. found out really recently that is super. disturbing was that you don't have to be. a lawyer to be a judge. >> To be a judge. Interesting. Oh, if you. don't know anything, just get elected if. >> you could just become a judge. >> You could be a regular person and just. now you're a judge. >> Yeah. I wonder what what kind of judge. that is because I know some judge. positions. >> Yeah, man. I don't give a [ __ ] if it's a. judge at Dairy Queen. [laughter] Like. you should. What are you talking about? You don't.

you don't have to be a lawyer to be a. judge. That's insane. That's so insane. That's like you don't. know how to count to be a mathematician. Like what are you talking about? You're. a judge. You don't have to be a lawyer. to be a judge. To me was like, oh my. god. State and federal courts, most. state and federal court uh and all. federal judges must have a law degree. Wonderful. Some state. >> practice requirements. Many states. require judges to have a certain number. of years of experience as a practicing.

lawyer before they're eligible for a. judgeship. Makes sense when a law degree. may not be required. Limited court. jurisdiction. Some states allow non-. lawyers to become judges in specific. lower level courts such as those that. handle small claims, traffic violations, or minor minor criminal matters. State. and local variations. The specific. requirements may may vary wildly by. state, even by the type of court within. a state. And training judges appointed. from the non-awyer pool typically must. compete complete specific training. programs. Right. But what is a program?

>> Yeah. I wonder if that's a relic of. uh like rural communities where maybe. there isn't a lawyer, but you need. someone to act in that position, you. know, like like a. >> like you got to be sheriff in this town. >> Yeah. instead of being a like an MD. doctor. Some people can practice. medicine, you know, in rural. communities, they do without being a MD. doctor. I forget the term of it, but a. >> okay, >> whatever whatever that term is. So maybe. maybe. >> they don't have a doctor. >> Well, yeah, they don't have a doctor, but you can you can you still have a. degree, not an MD, but some kind of.

medical degree that. >> maybe doesn't require as much time. >> or you didn't complete your res. >> So maybe maybe it's a relic of of that. I don't know. >> Right. That makes sense. Um but but. point being that you know if Congress. has oversight over these things well who. are we talking about? This is the thing. Like if you are the CIA and you are. running some program that you think is. crucial to national security and you. have some [ __ ] dingling from pick a. state, Virginia, North Dakota, whatever,

some ding-dong that just happened to be. able to get the right amount of votes. because they have the the the right. color on their flag, you know, and then. all of a sudden they're in and you have. to talk to this [ __ ] [ __ ] Like get. out of here. Like I'm not telling you. [ __ ] You're gonna hold back. information. You're gonna come up with. reasons why you have to redact files. And yeah, >> [ __ ] off. You'll be gone in two years. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is the inherent. tension within any intelligence. community, whether it's the CIA or the. FBI. There are legitimate reasons to.

keep things secret. You have to keep. secrets%, >> but at the same time, the fact that. you're afforded that secrecy allows you. to avoid accountability%. So, it's it's. a catch 22. You have to keep secrets. There's just no way around it. at the. same. >> Oh, 100%. And then you find out the. really crazy stuff that's happened in. the past like like like the Demina. Arkansas cocaine situation. >> I haven't heard of that. >> You didn't you know know about the Barry.

Seals story? >> Uh no. >> They made a movie about it with Tom. Cruz. In fact, in in the movie, Tom Cruz. actually gets arrested for smuggling. cocaine and Bill Clinton gets him off. Uh they call Bill Clinton. He gets. arrested in Arkansas. They call Bill. Clinton and they have him dead to rights. and you know he's joking around with the. cops saying, "I'd like to buy you guys. all Cadillacs and stuff like that." And. they're like, "You're going to jail for. the rest of your life." He goes, "No, she's going to get a phone call and I'm. going to walk right out of here." And it. turned out to be exactly how it.

happened. Barry Seal was flying drugs. from South America and dropping them off. in Mina, Arkansas, and then they would. go and pick them up in the woods. They. had a drop point. two kids were hanging. out in the woods and they witnessed it. accidentally. They were murdered and. then this the official story was they. had done drugs and they lay down fell. asleep on train tracks. >> Uh the parents funded an autopsy and the.

autopsy showed that they've been stabbed. multiple times. So then there's an. investigation comes through and then it. turns out that there was a long history. of this guy Barry Seals who's a CIA. operative who was flying in cocaine. dropping it off in Mina Arkansas all. known about by the Clintons. Everybody. was aware of it. >> and he had been funneling this money and. they were using it probably for black. ops similar to what they did with the. Contras in Senista, you know, the the. Contras versus the Sentinistas in.

Nicaragua. He winds up uh going to testify uh gets. murdered on his way to the trial with. George Bush's phone number in his. pocket. The whole story is like. completely crazy. >> Wow. Yeah. When when did that happen? I. hadn't heard of that. >> So it was when Bill Clinton was a. governor. So I believe it was the '8s. >> 86. >> 86. >> I wasn't alive. >> [ __ ] you weren't alive then. That's. hilarious. Um [ __ ] crazy story. But. this is the CIA, right? when this is the.

same thing that they did. Um, I'm. friends with Freeway Ricky Ross. Do you. know who he is? >> Okay, great story. So, >> Rick Ross, the rapper. Okay, you know. who that is? He got his name from a very. famous street hustler named Freeway. Ricky. Rick Ross. His name real name is. Rick Ross. He's the real Rick Ross. Rick. Ross was a guy who is a tennis player, a. young tennis player who uh started. selling cocaine and was like super.

disciplined because he was tennis. player. So was funneling millions of. dollars of cocaine, had no idea he was. getting his cocaine from the CIA. So he. was getting cocaine, selling it in the. hood, they were getting the money, and. they were using it. This Oliver North. thing with the Contress versus the. Sandinistas. All of this comes out in. court and he winds up going to jail. He. winds up going to jail for selling the. cocaine. Doesn't know how to read. He's. illiterate. Learns how to read in jail.

Becomes a lawyer in jail. Goes over his. trial and realizes that they had tried. him on the three strikes law, which is. supposed to be three different felonies. at three different times, but they. jammed them all together. And so he gets. off. So he's free now. now and he sells. legal marijuana in California. [laughter]. He's been on the podcast multiple times, but but this was the CIA that was. involved in all of this. This is this is. how like they were making money. They.

were selling cocaine. >> And one thing crazy just about not only. that, but MK Ultra in general, it's. against the CIA's charter to operate. within the United States. You know, that. should just be a a deal ender right. there for whatever they're doing within. the United. It's just it's within it's. against the charter. >> Yep. I mean what? There's no more. discussion. That's illegal. >> Well, I just think without oversight, there's cowboys and there's also when. you realize how much money is there to. be made and that you could this funnel. this money into oversee accounts that.

are anonymous and then you could. eventually retire someday and get out of. the game and be worth millions of. dollars and live in Monaco or whatever. the [ __ ] you want to do. Like, and I. think that's the dream for a lot of. these guys. I think they get involved. They realize it's a completely corrupt. system and it's corrupt from the top. down and there's ways to make money and. and there's a bunch of stuff going on. where money is being funneled into these. NOS's and there's there's just so much. opportunity for corruption and so little.

oversight and so much power and so much. secrecy and as you were talking about. the importance and the nec the necessity. of secrecy for national security which. is a real thing but also leads to. corruption and it leads to people just. doing wild things because there's No one. watching and they're in control. They're. in they're look it's so it must be so. fun. Like what's his name was talking. about? Uh the evil guy. >> George White. >> George White. Like he was talking about. like like how much fun he had which is. so sick. Yeah. >> But that's the kind of people that want. that kind of a job. And if you make that.

kind of a job available with no. oversight, we need like a council of elders, like a. wise council, you know, like of like. completely objective, brilliant people. that oversee all these things that. aren't ideologically captured, you know, they're financially independent, they. they don't need anything from you. I. I've mentioned external oversight like. Congress checking the executive, but at. the same time, one of the big problems. with MK Ultra or one of the problems. that led to MK Ultra without people even. within the CIA questioning it, there are. people in the CIA who know about it,

actually not that many because it's very. heavily compartmentalized, but some. people still do know about it. So, one. of the questions I was asking myself. throughout this book, why aren't the. people who were in the CIA and know. about MK Ultra, why aren't they speaking. up? Why aren't why don't they say pull. Sydney Gotautle aside and just have a. conversation with him? Do you think what. you're doing here is all right? >> I think they're terrified about their. career. >> That's exactly the thing. There's a. specific person within the CIA during. this time. That's his job. The inspector. general. So the inspector general within.

the CIA, his job is to make sure there. there's nothing that goes against the. CIA's charter or internal regulations or. the US law. But I found a interview that. he did later. Um there's this guy named. Lyman Kirkpatrick. He was the inspector. general during the 1950s when this was. going on. Um and he did an in. investigation into MK Ultra in 1957 as. it was going on and it continued on. after that. And so one of the things he. talks about is why isn't the case that. you tried why didn't you try to shut.

this down? Like you obviously knew this. was illegal. In fact, in 1963 a. different CIA inspector general named. John Earman. He did a separate. investigation into M MK Ultra and his. report his report that I quote in this. book specifically says what I think. they're doing is quote illegal and. unethical. Those are his terms and he's. the inspector general. Yet in this later. interview, Lyman Kurpatre talks about. why why didn't you tell them to stop? Why didn't you put an end to this? Why. didn't you raise this to higher ups? Why. didn't you do something? And he said, I. was worried about bringing up anything.

that could cause me to lose my job. He. knew that if he brought this up, he'd. basically be retaliated against. And so. that was it. So even, you know, there's. problems with external um oversight, but. also internal oversight. The internal. oversight has to be able to bring that. kind of stuff up. And another lack of. internal oversight is the fact that. Sydney Gotautle and Richard Helms, they. could destroy all these files with no. repercussions. It's just completely. illegal. It's against the CIA's own. internal regulations. In fact, in these. depositions that I found, some of the.

most colorful parts of the depositions. happen with the lawyers. the lawyers. just get into heated arguments back and. forth that makes the book really. colorful. At certain times there, you. know, Joseph Ralph is this old civil. rights, you know, he used to be the. civil rights lawyer. He uh he took on. this case basically to to fight against. the CIA. At at certain points, he. basically says to the other lawyers. representing the CIA, I'm going to punch. you in the nose. And he says, I'm never. giving this up. I'm going to mortgage my. house if it means I have to keep on. fighting you. But there's a certain. point where he basically lays into.

Gotautle asking him, why did you destroy. the files? Why did you destroy the. files? Sydney got comes up with several. excuses. One of those excuses at first. is he says the CIA was drowning in. paper. We had so much paper we couldn't. move. So there was just an internal um. kind of drive to get rid of this paper. so that we could walk around and figure. out where stuff was. He's just. completely making this up. But Ralph. presses him again. Why did you destroy. this stuff? Sydney got you know and he. does this to Richard Helms too. They. both eventually say again, well, we.

wanted, you know, it's it's part of our. job to protect sources and methods, and. so we wanted to make sure that nobody. would be able to know what our sources. and methods were as part of this. project. So, we had to destroy the. files. And Ralph was like, "These files. are secret. It's not like they're going. to be released to the public. They're. the CIA's files. How could how could. destroying them protect sources and. methods any more than just not releasing. them to the public? That that's just a. non-excuse." So eventually Ralph presses. got more and he kind of breaks down. during this interrogation and he says I.

was embarrassed by it. I was embarrassed. by what I had done. Basically, you know, ruined the lives of all these people. Spent $10 million at all these different. institutions for what? For to ruin these. lives and we didn't even learn that much. out of it. >> And so he destroyed the files. >> Wow. >> So and didn't face any repercussions. So. in addition to external oversight, there's got to be some internal. oversight that can provide a check and. prevent that from happening or if it. does happen, at least at least deter. others from doing the same thing by. holding them accountable. >> It's really fascinating that what we're.

experiencing is essentially 250 years. after the founding fathers had already. recognized these patterns of human. behavior that required oversight. >> They required checks and balances. In. order to have a government that doesn't. sink into tyranny, >> you have to have all these things in. place to make sure that no one person. has the power to do anything that really. [ __ ] up the apple cart. >> And they knew that this was a and they. really painstakingly structured this. this system of government that they.

thought would protect against it. just. they didn't factor into account special. interest groups and the stock market and. money and they just didn't factor into. it expanded exponentially into so many. different. >> factions, so many different influencing. bodies that it's almost completely out. of control. But. >> essentially they knew what could happen. >> that has proven to be accurate which is. really kind of fascinating. It is it is. you know it's a it's a brilliant system.

and I quote James Madison actually when. I talk about oversight because his. specific verbiage is you know auxiliary. cautions are nec auxiliary precautions. you know humans he says man men aren't. angels therefore auxiliary precautions. are necessary to keep their ambitions in. check which means external oversight. which is like he's exactly right that's. exactly what you need. >> he's exactly right you know I I wonder. like where this goes because it's going. in the wrong direction. From the. founding fathers to today, it's going in.

the wrong direction. It's like we I. think most people agree that the a lack. of oversight and secrecy is a gigantic. problem with not just not just the stuff. that we've already discussed with MK. Ultra and the CIA and the cocaine and. all these different things, but with. virtually everything that gets decided. upon in our government that affects. daily lives of people. There's there's. so many different influences that aren't. based on the greater good of the. American people. It's based on financial.

interests and that's sort of overwhelmed. all all of our policies, overwhelmed all. of our systems of government. And then. you have all of these social issues that. they never really want to fix because. they campaign fund against them, which. is what we were talking about before. So. this is this constant psychological. game. There's a game of us versus them. There's a game of certain key points, whether it is abortion or gun rights or. immigration or whatever it is, like. nothing ever gets solved. These are the.

beach balls that they throw up in the. air at the concert and they keep getting. bounced around and we're just little. dumb monkeys that are giving up our tax. dollars so they can keep running this. giant Ponzi scheme. >> Yeah. Um, I I will say a. counterintuitive point that I think is. important to also make though is um. Daniel Shaw was a CBS news correspondent. and he's the guy who initially broke the. the story on CIA assassination attempts. on foreign leaders and he has this quote. about how the US has a you know there's.

a pendulum that swings between security. and liberty. You know the the more. security you have the less the more. liberty basically you have to take away. if you can be infinitely secure, but. that means that the government would be. inside your house and know everything. about you and prevent you from doing. anything, but nothing bad would happen. At least you wouldn't be able to do. anything bad because there would be a. policeman in every bedroom basically. Um, on the opposite side, you know, if. the pendulum swings too far the opposite. way, complete liberty, well, you have no. security because anyone could do. anything. So, there's this this constant. tension between security and liberty.

that swings throughout American history. And an important thing to keep in mind. is that I don't think you want that. pendulum to stop. You actually want a. little bit of tension between that. You. want, in other words, you want the press and. Congress to be exposing abuses, you. know, because um human nature is not. going to change. People are going to try. to abuse the system in whatever it is. That's not going to stop. However, if. the press and Congress aren't exposing.

these abuses, you might think that there. are no abuses happening, but they're. going to be happening. So, I think it's. actually good the the fact that this. pendulum is swinging a little bit, the. fact that there is a little bit of. tension and the fact that there are. being abuses being exposed. I wish the. abuses didn't happen, but at the same. time, the abuses are going to happen no. matter what. Therefore, the exposure of. the abuses is a good sign. It's a sign. that the system is actually working as. intended because the abuses are being. exposed. You know, one of the one of the. points I make in this book is dread the. day when the press sings nothing but the.

praises of those in power and Congress. says that there are no abuses to. investigate. It might seem like that's. utopia, but that's the day that you have. lost all of your liberties. >> That's a very good point. That's a very. good point and well said. Um I I think. this is what we're seeing now with uh. independent journalism. Um and that that. these a lot of these issues that get. raised are coming from independent. journalists first and then they. ultimately have to be recognized when.

they reach the zeitgeist. They. ultimately have to be recognized by the. New York Times or by mainstream media. publications. But they're not the ones. who break a lot of these stories. A lot. of these stories are broken by the Glenn. Greenwalds and the Matt Thai and the. genuine independent journalists who. initially worked for an organization and. then found there's some sort of an. ideological blockade or some certain. subjects they couldn't breach or certain. things that they were told that they. couldn't publish and they were like I'm. out and then they started doing it on. their own. And then also social media,

this is the new function that social. media has where you have these accounts. that break news stories all the time. And interestingly enough, some of them. are very reliable and those ones wind up. becoming the ones that people share and. they get a tremendous amount of. followers and then they are more. trustworthy often times than corporate. media, which is really kind of scary but. also fascinating like that there's a. there's a a need for it. There's a.

recognition. there's a distribution of. information that lets you to see see all. of this corruption and all this chaos. and like what's at the root of it and. why isn't this being discussed in the. New York Times and then all a sudden. someone puts up this 10 Twitter post of. all these different links and shows you. this is the the history of the story of. it and then a month later it's in the. Washington Post and and it's interesting. it's interesting it's because it's like. it's almost like. >> these this need exists it's not being. fulfilled by mainstream media because.

mainstream media is captured by. corporate interests. So in order to have. this information comes out, the world. gives us this new platform and that's. social media and social media. distributes all this stuff and then you. have to sort through what's real, what's. foreign governments making up fake. stories. >> That's the other side of it because the. algorithm can push something but it. doesn't necessarily push truth, you. know, it might just push engagement and. if that's the case then how do you know. >> community notes that Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I mean, well, that's the the beautiful thing about.

Twitter and when they when Elon solved. that issue with community. I don't. necessarily say solved. It's not solved, but it it it it certainly made it a lot. easier to understand what's going on. Like because there's often times there's. some outrageous video clip like, "Oh my. god, can you believe the Democrats are. doing this?" And then it turns out, "No, that's actually from a movie, you know, or that's actually AI or that's actually. from 2016 and it's in Poland." You know. what I mean? There's a lot of that stuff. happens where people get outraged and. someone posts something and then I.

always go to the original account that. posts it and. how many times I've gone there and go, "Oh, you're not a real person." Like. most of the time I go and look at all. the posts that they have. I'm like, "Well, this is either a bot or this is a. foreign government running one of these. like puppet accounts.". >> Yeah. you you you might like being a. historian because it sounds like that's. very similar to what I do in the. historical record, not on social media, but you know, most a lot of what I'm. doing is following this source, that. sites, this source, that sites, that. source, that this source. It's like.

where's the origin of this thing? And. you can see the it's a game of. telephone. You can see the. transformation along the way. One of my. favorite examples comes from my first. book. I was writing about William. Donovan who was the head of the OSS and. he was this really, you know, larger. than than life individual, a World War I. war hero. He had a Medal of Honor and. all kinds of stuff. And there was this. really great quote in a book and it was. describing Donovan basically as that he. was the kind of guy that would dance on. the roof of the hotel and he would, you. know, you know, he would destroy these.

planes and whatever. And I thought, man, that's such a like exciting quote to. encapsulate who he is. So, I was reading. this book and I kind of okay, I'm going. to mark that quote. I'm going to come. back and see where does he what source. is this from so I can use that in my. book. So, I go to the source. It turns. out it it cites another book and it's. like, okay, I've got to get that book. So, I go to the library. I was teaching. in at Louisiana Tech at the time. Go to. the Louisiana Tech library, get that. book, open it to the page that it says, find the quote, go, okay, here's where. it is. Now, go to the back of the book, see the note. The note cites another.

book. It turns out I had that book. I. own that book. So I went back home, go. to that book, open do the same thing, look for the source of this quote. It. turns out it was a book I didn't have. and the library didn't have. So I had to. put an inner library loan, you know, in. in use. So I had to basically request. that my library get the book from a. different library. That was going to. take several weeks. So okay, now I got. to wait. In the meantime, I go into. Google books. I start searching this. quote for other books. It turns out they. basically cite the books that I had. already consulted. So that's a dead end. there. I have to wait for this other. book to come in. And in the meantime,

I'm thinking to myself, that quote. sounds awfully familiar. What do I know. that from? It turns out I had already. used that quote in my book, but it was. from a different it was in a different. context. It wasn't talking about William. Donovan. It was talking about just. people in the OSS in general. And the. quote was different. It wasn't like the. same quote, but it had many of the key. words. And you could tell that it was it. was the same thing, but somebody had. changed it. So now I'm thinking, did I. use like a fake quote, you know, in this. book? So I got to figure out in my. manuscript where I got this. It turns. out I got it from this book called.

Wander by this guy named Sterling. Hayden, the actor, later an actor. He. was in the OSS and he had used the quote. because he was quoting he was talking. about when he was in Europe at the end. of the war, he told someone he was in. the OSS and they said, "Oh, the OSS guys. are the kind of guys who blah blah blah. blah blah." And I thought, "Okay, well, he's recalling this from memory, so this. must be the origin of the quote. Then. what are all these other books quoting?". So finally that inter library loan comes. in and I get it and it basically says. the quote and it but it's you know it's.

a little bit different and it's. referring to Donovan again and not just. OSS guys in general and it doesn't site. a source. So I thought okay what. happened is the guy who wrote that book. he had read Sterling Hayden's book he. had taken the quote and he liked it but. he wanted to apply it to Donovan. So we. switched the subject and he changed the. quote a little bit and everyone after. that dozens of different books have. cited that as their original source and. it was about the wrong person and not. even the right quote. >> Wow. >> So and that's for one quote in my book. That's the amount of work you have to. do. >> Well, kudos to [laughter] you for doing.

that work, right? That's why people like. you are so important that you chased. that that whole story down to the end. If if anyone is interested in that. though in my book I cite the original. book obviously because that's what but. next to it I said also see Joseph Pico. blah blah blah the original book. So. that's the book that I originally found. the quote in. So if they want to go down. the rabbit hole they can follow his book. to that book to that book to that book. >> Wow. [laughter]. >> Well. >> so it's a lot of rabbit holes going down. even just to find the origins of things. >> Well and then apply that to religion. [laughter].

>> you know like stories. >> Oh. Oh yeah. You know the game of. telephone. >> Oh my god. You know what? What was the. original story? Yeah, it's it's. a a lot of this stuff, the secrecy, MK. Ultra, the all the stuff we're talking. about about oversight, >> it it all relates to the way the human. mind works. >> Like that the human mind in this. instance would take a quote and for its. own convenience apply it to a different. person and change it a little bit. Like.

>> it's like we're we're constantly dealing. with all of these factors that. are in motion with human intelligence, with ego, with reputation, embarrassment, the ambition, >> power, control. And one thing I. especially noticed in doing this too is. the. >> the ability for humans to rationalize. anything to agree with what they already. think is true is almost limitless. I.

give an example in this book of um a. psychologist named Leon Festinger. He. wrote this book called when prophecy. fails and it's a really fascinating. story where. >> he was looking in a newspaper and he saw. an announcement for the end of the. world. There was this cult called the. seekers cult and they had said basically. on December 21st 1953 I think it was. it's going to be the end of the world. There's going to be a massive flood. Join us and so we can get whisked away. on this spaceship before the end of the. world happens. Festinger sees this and. he thinks this is a great psychological.

experiment because they are making a. specific prediction on this day. This is. going to happen. What happens when it. doesn't happen? So he decides to embed. himself in this cult. Basically he they. knew he was a psychologist but they said. yeah sure come on by. So him and some of. his researchers, they just sit with the. cult on the day that the world is. supposed to end because they want to. know how are they going to deal with the. fact that the world doesn't actually. end. So. obviously there wasn't even a light. rain. There was like no flood and so the. world doesn't end. Some people actually.

do end up leaving the cult afterwards. But many people stay, especially the. people who had sunk many costs into the. cult. They had abandoned their families. to join this. They had donated lots of. money. they had uh quit their jobs. basically to be in this cult because. they thought the world was going to end. What do we need money for? And so those. people stayed and now Festinger coined. the term cognitive dissonance. So the. idea that you're holding two. irreconcilable views in your mind at the. same time. So one of their views is we. predicted because we had received we. have received revelations from God.

basically that the world was going to. end on this day. That's one position. they're holding. The other position is. the world didn't end on that day. So. these are this is cognitive dissonance. How do we reconcile the fact that these. two things contradict each other, but we. have to believe both of them? So, Fessenger was interested in how they. would do this. There were a couple. rationalizations originally. One was, well, maybe God meant it in a figurative. sense, not a literal sense. Maybe it was. a figurative flood that was going to. cleanse our minds of, you know, something instead, not like a literal. flood that was going to kill everyone. But then they said, "No, no, we actually.

thought it was going to be a literal. flood." So he he's in the middle of. their discussions when they're. rationalizing this and they eventually. come upon the conclusion God was going. to destroy the world. We were right to. believe that he was going to do that. But because he saw how fervently we. believed in him and how fervently we. believed that the world was going to be. destroyed, he decided to have mercy on. us and didn't destroy the world. So the. fact that we believed that the world was. going to be destroyed is the reason why. the world wasn't destroyed. So the. evidence against them becomes evidence. for them. We know we are right because.

the world wasn't destroyed because you. know that proves that God was taking. mercy on us. Wow. >> So this is how they rationalize it. So. this is you know non-falsifiable. Something that there's no way you could. prove it wrong. This is an indication of. a bad theory of it's non-falsifiable. It's like not tethered to reality. >> Gold medal mental gymnastics. >> Exactly. If something's non-falsifiable, you know, for the the classic example. for me of non-falsifiability is the. concept of last Thursdayism. So, it's. the idea that God created the universe.

last Thursday. Now, how could I prove. that wrong? You know, I asked my. students this and many of them say, "Well, I I remember like last Wednesday. I remember time before last Thursday.". But of course, you remember that, but. God created you and your memories last. Thursday. So, of course, you would think. that there was time before last Thursday. because God implanted those memories in. you last Thursday. In other words, this. is just a non-falsifiable belief. You. can't prove it wrong, but that doesn't. mean it's right. So the the capacity for. humans to rationalize things if you. start from a false premise, we can.

rationalize a world to make sure that we. believe in that false premise. >> Yes. Yes. We do that with everything. We. do that with religion. We do that with. ideologies. We do that with everything. >> And it's not it's you know people. typically associate rationalization with. religion or this kind of cult behavior. like this group I explained. But. actually I'm a historian of science and. it actually plays an important role in. the in science itself like the the. method of science how science works. Um. the if you don't mind if I can briefly. describe the philosophy of Thomas [ __ ]. He's this famous philosopher of science.

He wrote this the most influential book. in the philosophy of science called the. structure of scientific revolutions. Basically explaining how does science. change or progress over time. His. concept was that scientists operate. within a paradigm you a worldview. So we. believe in Newtonian you know gravity or. we have the worldview of you know the. germ theory of disease or you know. whatever it is. So this is our paradigm. Whatever group of scientists we are. within that paradigm, we do normal. science. He says puzzle solving. We we.

do experiments to try to pro prove our. paradigm right. So if if my paradigm is, you know, if I'm a follower of tolly and. I believe in the geocentric universe, I'm going to be observing the way that. the you know the planets and the stars. are moving across the sky to try to. prove to me right. I'm going to try to. prove that his predictions actually come. true. So this is just called puzzle. solving. What scientists actually do, Thomas [ __ ] says many of them, they just. puzzle solve. They just try to prove the. paradigm right. In the process of doing. that, they uncover occasionally an. anomaly. An anomaly is something that.

seems to contradict the paradigm. Like, okay, I Tommy makes this prediction. about where the planet should be, but it. turns out the planet's actually not. there. It's a little bit off. That's an. anomaly. And [ __ ] says, "What do. scientists do with anomalies? Do they. throw out their theory?" No. He says. they either ignore it or they find a way. to rationalize it. Well, Tommy made that. prediction, but it's close enough to. where it's still, you know, his his. theory still works for most of the. observations we're making. So, scientists usually ignore or rationalize. the anomaly. But over time, as they do.

more and more puzzle solving, normal. science, more and more anomalies crop up. to the point where we just can't ignore. them anymore. There just too many. anomalies. At a certain point, we. realize that our worldview, our paradigm. must be wrong. And [ __ ] says this allows. for a crisis within the scientific. community. The group of scientists. within this paradigm, they enter a. crisis period. And it's during that. crisis period when someone can put. forward an alternative paradigm that. accounts for all those anomalies and. then we accept that as our new paradigm.

So it accounts for all the things that. the previous paradigm could do in. addition to the all the anomalies that. the previous paradigm couldn't account. for. Now we're in a new paradigm and. what do we do? We do puzzle solving. We. try to prove our paradigm right and in. the process we uncover anomalies. Oh, and we irrationalize them away. But the. the the reason I raise this point is. because one of the integral parts to the. progression of science, says Thomas. [ __ ] is the fact that scientists are. stubborn. The fact that contrary to. popular belief, we we typically think of. scientists as people who are really open.

to changing their minds. They're. confronted by evidence and so okay, they're willing to accept this evidence. Thomas Goon says if you actually look at. the history of science closely, that. does happen. But what also happens in a. lot of instances is scientists are. stubborn and they don't want to change. their minds. They're stuck on their. paradigm and so they rationalize away. the anomalies. So the same kind of. rationalizing that you have within the. seekers cult about their belief system. is very similar to the kind of. rationalizing that scientists are doing. when they refuse to throw out their. paradigm because they've uncovered these. anomalies. But surely there's a way we.

can make those anomalies fit with our. paradigm instead and they don't. So this. isn't to say that scientists are members. of a cult or anything like that. In. fact, there's, you know, there are good. reasons to um to maybe elevate the. predictions of scientists over those of. these cult members because there are. structures in place within the. scientific community to prevent some of. the more egregious biases that they. have. However, really what I consider. [ __ ] as it's a it's a commentary on. human psychology. [ __ ] basically figured.

out cognitive dissonance before Leon. Festinger, you know, but [ __ ] didn't. have that terminology. Festinger is. describing cognitive dissonance in these. cult members. [ __ ] is describing it in. scientists. He just doesn't have that. terminology, but that's just what it is. And [ __ ] says that's why science. progresses. It's necessary for those. people to ignore that evidence because. it enables them to keep uncovering more. anomalies that eventually leads to the. revolution. So, it's like it's an ironic. thing that our ability to rationalize is. what allows us to progress in the. future. >> Wow. >> Wow. This is the perfect point to take a. break because I always take a leak. So,

this is awesome. We'll be right back. >> Okay. Sorry about that, but I'm glad we. we we took a break right after that epic. rant. [laughter] That was so good. I. mean, what you just nailed it. It's so. perfect that there's just this bizarre. psychological dance when it comes to. human beings, even scientists. >> Yeah. And it's, you know, the main point. to make is that it's not the the main. point is just that human psychology is. human psychology. just because you're a. scientist or a cult member or whatever, it's it's not as if you're immune to any.

of these tendencies. Anyone is subject. to them. It's just human psychology. So, I tend to think of Thomas [ __ ] in terms. of psychology instead of philosophy. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's brilliant. And. it's just it also all of that all that. understanding of human psychology is. really what leads us to. >> even begin to wonder what what is going. on with the human mind? How how do you. exploit it? What can you do? And then. you get people like Sydney Gotautle who. make a [ __ ] career out of it.

[laughter]. They're just they're realizing like. we're like these very bizarre. complicated thinking apes and we have. tendencies and we we have these things. that we do that protect ourselves and we. have these desires and we have these. motivations and how do we exploit that. and how do we do that for air quotes. national security interests? >> Yeah. And one of the ironic things is I. don't think Sydney got particularly. successful in creating like a manurion. candidate and controlling someone like a. marionette and getting them to commit an.

assassination or something like that. However, there are ways to manipulate. people and to influence them to behave. in certain ways and there the typical. ways that we associate with like cult. behavior. Um there's a guy named Steven. Hassan and he he's. >> Yeah, I've had him on. >> Oh, have you? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. his bite. model, behavior, information, thought, emotion. I think that's a very good. model for understanding how actual mind. control actually takes place. You know, behavior being like controlling where. someone can go, what they can do, what.

they can eat, when they can sleep. Information being restricting someone. from accessing outside sources of. information, but if they do, teaching. them to distrust that information even. if they do access it. >> Well, he was actually in a cult. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was in the Mooney. Yeah. Uh thought control is like um. reinforcing previous patterns of. thought. So saying mantras, reciting. prayers, um creating an us versus them. mentality. And then emotion control is. like uh. >> instilling in someone certain emotions. to make them beholden to the cult or to.

whatever it is. Guilt, fear, shame, anger, loyalty, dependence, that kind of. thing. Um and so. >> a combination of these four factors is I. think the real mind control. How people. actually manipulate people. um how. especially cults are able to man. manipulate their members to do all kinds. of. >> really insane things like cut off their. genitals or commit murders or anything. like that. I think it's much more. influenced by those four factors than it. is some kind of LSD, you know, mind. control, Sydney Gotautle, MK Ultra type.

thing. >> Are you aware of uh the cult that. existed in Austin that there's a. documentary called Holy Hell? >> I don't think so. No. When when was. that? >> Very really interesting. Um, I believe. it took place here in the '9s. The cult. It's called the Bodie Tree, I believe. Okay. I haven't originally started in. West Hollywood. And this is a great. story. It was a guy who is a gay porn. star and a hypnotist [laughter] who was. also a yoga instructor. So, he starts.

this cult. >> He would have liked this book, I bet. >> Yeah. I believe his name was Jaime Gomez. and he changed his name a couple of. times. One of them was Michelle and I. think the other one was Andreas. And so. when the cult awareness network started. looking in the cults right after uh Waco. >> and Jolly West started that, right, the. cult awareness. >> Yes. >> So this guy leaves uh West Hollywood and. moves to Austin and has his followers. build him a theater that he can dance.

for them in front of them. >> That was the point. So that he can like. show off. >> Yes. It's a beautiful theater. I almost. bought it. Oh, really? >> Yeah. We were the original comedy. Mothership was going to be at this cult. >> Is it downtown or. >> No, no, it's uh West Austin. It's on uh. B Caves Road. Okay. Yeah. >> And uh it's still there. It's a. beautiful theater. Uh and the reason why. I was going to buy it was for sale. First of all, it was a beautiful theater. and we we wanted a place to put a comedy. club and Ron White, my dear friend, had. performed there and he told me how great. it was. He's like, "Some cult owned it.

or something." So I was like, "All. right, cool." When I went to check it. out, I'm like, "This is great." And then. I get a phone call from my friend Adam. He goes, "Uh, hey man, have you seen the. documentary on this cult?" And I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] There's a documentary." And. the documentary is terrible. It's. horrible. However, there's one. fascinating aspect of it. Okay, so this. guy, [sighs] he had sex with all these. people. He made them pay money so that. he could have sex with them. Like they. would do therapy and he was having sex. with all these guys and they were.

straight and it was like they felt. terrible about it. And after it was. over, like the one guy had sent a mass. email like, "Hey, this guy's been. hypnotizing me and [ __ ] me for the. past 10 years." And everybody's like, "I. thought it was just me." And then the. entire call falls apart. >> But here's the point. >> This guy had this thing that he would do. to them called the knowing. And they. would have to qualify for the knowing. They'd have to be ready for it. And only. he could decide if they were ready. When. they were ready, they would have this. ceremony, this huge thing. And then he.

would put his hands on them. They would. like they would kneel there in. acceptance of the knowing and he would. put his hands on them and they would. have this profound psychedelic. experience. >> So through the power of suggestion, through the placebo effect, whatever it. is, >> they they genuinely have this profound. psychedelic experience, this connection. to God, this feeling of all oneness. >> to a person. Everyone who left the cult. who talked about what a terrible guy he. was, talked about how they he sexually.

exploited them and abused them and took. their money and they they wasted 20. years of their life with this guy. But. that day when they got the knowing was. the most profound day of their lives. really even even after they're out of. the. >> cult. Even after they were out of the. cults, people weeping about what he did. to them, >> still wow. >> talked about that experience as being. the most profound moment of their life, >> which is like. >> this guy because he was a hypnotist. >> and because he was also a.

megalomaniacalistic. Yeah. Oh, beautiful man. Like gorgeous. man. Like six-pack, ripped body. And it. got weird at the end because later in. his life he started getting plastic. surgery because he was getting older and. so his looks were going. So his [ __ ]. face kept pulling and everybody was like. what are you doing? Like what are you. doing? And he would deny doing anything. but it was like so obvious and he had. facelifts and he just went crazy. But. the the point is it's like he figured. out how to not just manipulate these.

people like all cult leaders do, but. have this one experience. >> that apparently was a real experience. for these people for some in some way. >> able to incept like some kind of yeah. idea into them or. >> if they could just get out then like I. got it. Thank you. I'm going to go get a. regular job now. [laughter]. >> But in order to have that I'm sure you. have to go through the whole experience. because It builds up some tension or. resentment or something. Human. psychology has to have gone through that.

in order to maybe reach that. >> Well, it's just spectacular that he was. able to understand that you had to hold. it back from them for so long. And like. some of them in the v in the film would. be they were complaining that I'm ready. for it. He won't give it to me. I want. it. I want it so badly. Michelle got it. Now she's enlightened and I'm just. sitting here on earth eating carrots. This is [ __ ] And uh you know it's. it's really weird because one of the. things about these cult documentaries is. every time you watch one like for me at.

least in the beginning I'm like that. looks like fun in the beginning it looks. great. They're all having dinners. together. They're all. everyone loves community. Everyone needs. to feel accepted. >> They're all like working in the garden. together like this looks great. >> It looks great. And then it always. descends into one guy [ __ ] everybody. One guy takes all the money. [laughter]. One guy one guy wants to be known as the. living God. >> Uhuh. Yep. >> It's just these patterns are so weird.

They're so weird because they're so. similar. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a It's the same basic. human psychology operating under. different different circumstances that. leads to, you know, I mean, there's the. classic phrase, you know, history. repeats itself or history doesn't. repeat, but it does rhyme. But it's. because humans share a psychology. So of. course there are going to be similar. actions. Um that reminds me kind of the. this concept of like incepting something. into someone or making them feel this. >> Were you, you know, this is a little bit. before my time, but did you experience.

the satanic panic in the sense that were. you keeping up with it when that was. happening in the 1980s? >> I wasn't. You know, I was very busy. during that time, but I peripherally. remember it. And then later on we. examined it and looked into it and it, you know, we've done a few episodes. where we went over it, but it was, you. know, legitimately kind of crazy. >> Yeah. You know, because there's a. connection between that and some of the. what I would say are MK Ultra kind of. conspiracies. Um, there are a lot of.

true things about MK Ultra that are just. crazy. But there are also some things. that people propose that I don't think. actually happened. You know, there are. some people who say, for instance, that. MK Ultra was. it was like. getting young women to run around these. military compounds where they would be. hunted for sport. And it was saying. like, you know, there was a vice. president who activated a hologram. around his body to make this woman think. that she had turned into a lizard, to. make her think that lizard people. actually exist. like you know there she.

was saying that um these CIA personnel. would impregnate her and abort the. fetuses and eat the fetuses and sell. some of the body parts in their. interstate occult body part business and. all this stuff which I don't think any. of that happened. However, there's a. connection between you know the people. who are making these assertions and the. satanic panic. A lot of the people who. make these assertions say that they. recovered their memories through. hypnotism. And that is a lot of what was. going on during the satanic panic. you. had people recovering memories through. hypnotism about being involved in this.

ritualistic satanic abuse. >> Um, and in fact, >> there was there's a group called the. International Society for the Study of. Dissociation. And a lot of the members. were kind of responsible for propagating. many of these satanic panic conspiracy. theories. the president of that. organization, a guy named Bennett. Braonn, he was sued by a former patient. for falsely convincing her that she had. um engaged in cannibalism and. infanticide and all this stuff that she. didn't do. And he lost his medical.

license and she was awarded $10 million. in this lawsuit. But it turns out that. many of the people one in particular of. the kind of prominent MK MK Ultra. conspiracy theorists, her husband who. did this hypnotism on her to recover her. memories, he said he learned how to. recover memories from from Bennett. Braonn himself and he was a part of this. international society for the study of. dissociation. So it's like the same. techniques that were being used during. the satanic panic to so-called recover. these memories. It's the same thing in. many of these MK Ultra, what I would say.

are conspiracy theorists who are. propagating these this, you know, misinformation about MK Ultra because. they've supposedly recovered these. memories about how these jelly beans. were used to control their behavior or. something. Um, but it's the same kind of. techniques that are being used in both. instances. >> Hypnotic regression in particular is. very odd because a lot of is dependent. upon the questions that are asked while. the person's under like that you can. lead someone to believe something. happened that didn't happen. >> Yeah. This is what Jolly West was, some. of the stuff that he was doing. >> This is what's really u Do you know who.

John Mack is? >> John Mack. >> John Mack was uh I believe he was a. psychiatrist at Harvard. Um he got. really obsessed with alien abduction. stories. >> and he wrote a book called Abduction and. it was all hypnotic regressions of. people that have been abducted by aliens. allegedly and they all had very similar. stories. But the real controversy from. skeptics has always been like what were. these sessions like? Did you leading. questions? >> Yes. Yes. Did you lead them to believe.

what and also there was a precedent. >> um so do you know the Betty and Barney. Hill story? Okay. Betty and Barney Hill. were an interracial couple in New. Hampshire I believe in the 1950s where. the very first UFO abduction story and. they had an experience on a highway. They saw a thing. They lost time and. then they couldn't sleep. They had all. these real problems and they they both. wound up going to uh a hypnotist and. separately had the same story.

Separately had the same story about. being taken aboard a craft and being. manipulated. All these. >> the problem is then that story gets out. into the zeitgeist, right? And then you. have hypnotic regression where people. tell very similar versions of that story. >> and it becomes a thing where like even. if the the original Betty and Barney. Hill story was real now that becomes a. possibility in your mind that could have. happened to you and then you get. hypnotized and someone says, >> "Do you see any beings in the room with.

you?" Yes, I do. >> Do they are they short with large heads. and large black eyes? they are like what. are the questions like how did you lead. them into this hypnotic regression of. alien abduction. >> and I think a very similar thing took. place during the European kind of witch. craze in the 17th century. >> these preachers would go around to. different communities talking about. witches and demons and so as soon as. they left in the weeks following there's. a huge uptick in witch accusations and. supposed demonic possessions [laughter].

is it a coincidence that right after. they're as soon as it's brought to your. consciousness oh I I think you might be. a witch all these accusations start. spreading around. Obviously, it's like a. suggested thing that they picked up from. attending these religious rallies. >> Of course. Did you know that when uh the. printing press was first created, some. of the first and most popular books were. all about how to spot witches? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Like. Hinrich Kramer and his the hammer of. witches. >> You would think. No, no, no. But we now. we have a printing press. It's just all. about philosophy and, you know, we're. going to it's going to give people to.

print the Bible and mathematics. No, no, no, no. If it bleeds, you know, if it. bleeds, it leads. It's like people are. attracted to sensational stories. It's. the same thing about human psychology. They're just the same psychology as us. today. And if we're interested in. learning these sensational stories, of. course, they want to, too. >> It's it was their version of what I'm. obsessed with, Bigfoot, >> the same thing. It's just nonsense. >> Yeah. A funny anecdote kind of related. to that. I I teach a course on Isaac. Newton and he writes this big book, The. Prinipia. It's like the most famous book. in the history of science. and it goes.

off to the publisher and the publisher, you know, he's publishing this book and. right after the Prancipia is published, the publisher gets arrested for. publishing pornography. So, it's like. there's this image of this publishing. house where the Prinipia, the most. important book in the history of. science, is there and right next to it. is all this smut that he's secretly. doing. [laughter]. Wow. God, human psychology is such a. trip. We're so weird. We're such weird. animals and it makes it so hard because. we're so weird to find the truth. >> Yeah. especially when you when you're.

talking about like suggested memories or. something like that. There are a few. studies I I don't remember them, you. know, like perfectly, but. >> there there's one study that I talk. about in this book where. >> this is right after the Challenger. explosion. So, the space shuttle has. exploded and there were two. psychologists, I think they're at Emory. University, and they decide we are going. to have all of our students, like 200. students, write down exactly where they. were when they heard about this because. obviously they're all going to remember. this is like the next day. where were. you? What were you doing? Who told you.

about the explosion? And so they. [snorts] got a copies, you know, of. these questionnaires basically from a. hundred, however many students. Four. years later, I think it was, they. tracked down, I don't know what it, 40. or 80 of these students and had them do. the same questionnaire. When the. challenger exploded, where were you? Who. were you with? What did you know what. did you learn? Blah blah blah blah blah. They took the exact same questionnaire. and the majority of the students got a. majority of the questions wrong in the. sense that they put down something. completely different than they did the. first time. So it's like nobody was even.

manipulating them. That was just their. own memory that you know the the. majority got the majority of these. important details wrong. There there's. another. >> intriguing kind of humorous. psychological study. Um I don't know how. big the sample size was on this but it. was to determine how powerful our memory. is in the sense that if you just suggest. some that someone did something is it. possible that they actually think they. actually did. So the suggestion was they. took a bunch of students to some vending. machines and they either had them. propose to the vending machine something.

that surely you would remember or they. would suggest to them that they had. proposed to the vending machine. So that. you know some students would actually. propose and other students they would. just tell them oh you know imagine. yourself proposing to this vending. machine and afterwards I don't remember. what the percentage was but it's a. decent amount of percentage of the. students who were only told to envision. proposing actually thought they had. proposed and so the power of suggestion. is very strong. >> so strong and the memory is so fallible. like I have a pretty good memory for.

like hard facts like like information. that I know is true, >> but my memory of my own life. >> is basically like weird blurry snapshots. that I can recall. And often times what. I'm recalling is the memory of my. recounting of my memory. >> It's not really my memory. Yeah. >> Like this is the story that you've told. yourself. >> I watched an episode of news radio the. other day. There was a sitcom that I was.

on in the 1990s. I didn't remember it at. all. I didn't remember the plot. I. didn't remember the lines that I had. I. didn't like if if it was fake, if. someone created it during AI, I would. have no idea whether it was an AI. version of news radio or whether unless. it was an episode that I really remember. like, oh, that was a really funny one. >> I don't I didn't remember this at all. >> Yeah. >> And it was me. I lived it. I was on TV, right? So, it was like probably a big. moment for me at the time. Gone. >> It doesn't exist.

>> I feel like I It's ironic. Like I'm a. historian, but I feel like my memory is. not that good either. I. >> I don't think anybody's is. >> No, it can't be. You know, >> well, there's certain people like you. know that woman that was on Taxi um. really pretty redhead lady that sitcom. Taxi from the 1970s. >> God, I forget her name is uh famous. actress Mary Lou. >> Tenner. >> Tenner. Maryl Tenner. >> Photographic memory. >> Henner. Marylu Henner. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. Sorry. Maryl um I used to be in. love with her when I was a kid. uh she.

has a photographic memory like she can. remember uh that it was a Tuesday in. 1983 like this lady it's incredible. memory highly superior autobiographical. memory a rare condition in which people. can remember nearly every day of their. lives with precise detail. >> I wonder if that would be good to have. or bad to have. >> She seems very happy. >> Okay, >> show a picture of her when she was. young. She was awful. I can imagine. having a a negative experience or a bad. memory and then dwelling on that and.

knowing every single detail of that and. having to relive that like in. photographic detail every time you think. of it. I'm I'm sure that couldn't be a. pleasant experience. But. >> that one right above go to the one right. above there. Right there. No, right. there. Bam. That was her. smoke show. >> That was your younger. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah, she was so pretty. And also uh photographic memory. So you. can't lie to her. [laughter]. Like what an amazing person. But that's. got to be a I would imagine it's not a. B. I would I would take that over not.

taking that. Like if someone gave me the. option, would you rather have an. absolute photographic memory or be like. not really sure like I don't [ __ ]. know what happened, you know? Yeah. I. would take I would take the photographic. memory. I think the burden I think would. be worth it. >> I think I'd handle it. >> Even me for questions like you know if. you ask me how did you come to write. this book? Like you you asked me how did. you become interested in this topic? When I was thinking about the answer to. that question, I mean what I said is. factual in the sense that I was doing a. dissertation on scientists in the. intelligence community and this but is. that really like how I came to this.

topic? I might have read some other book. that I read the name Sydney Gotautle and. that got me interested and you know even. even when I'm talking to you about my. own autobiographical experience to me. it's like. I mean what I'm saying is true but is it. like literally true in the sense that I. know with precision that how I came to. this topic because I was doing my. dissertation on this it might have been. you know I I kind of remember reading. Tim Weiner's book Legacy of Ashes and it. briefly mentioned Sydney got in there. maybe I read that and it like oh who's. this guy you know right So, there's the.

classic joke about how there's a guy. looking for his keys on the parking lot. and there's a it's night and there's a. lamp post right above him and a police. officer walks by and the police officer. says, "Sir, what are you doing?" And he. says, "Oh, I'm looking for my keys on. the ground. They they must be somewhere. around here." And the officer says, "Oh, well, did you drop him right here?" And. the guy says, "No, I dropped him in the. bush over there, but this is where the. light is, so this is where I'm looking.". So to me it's [laughter] like well when. I remember my own auto autobiographic. experience am I remembering it how it's.

convenient to remember it memor remember. it or you know or. >> often times often time I mean that's the. human tendency right I I know for a fact. when I really got into conspiracies. because I have a a moment connected to. it that was uh a bad experience. So, when I was uh in my early 20s, this guy. that was a friend of mine that was in a. band had read this book called Best. Evidence by David Lifton. David Lifton. was an accountant and uh he I forget. what his assignment was, but it had.

something to do with the Warren. Commission. So, he goes over the Warren. Commission report and he actually read. the whole thing. So, it's a huge volume. >> and he he reads all this and he finds so. many contradictions and so many things. that are wrong with it that he starts. investigating the Kennedy assassination. and he writes this book called Best. Evidence and the the book is basically. saying that there's no way the official. story is true. And I read this while I. was a comedian on the road. So I was in. Philadelphia and I was doing standup and. uh I had a show on Friday night and I.

spent the whole day in my hotel room. reading this book freaking out going, "Oh my god, they killed him." So then I. go on stage, first show and [ __ ]. bomb. [laughter]. And I had done really good the night. before. the JFK or did you already have your set. routine? >> No, I had my set, but I was like. completely freaked out by the fact they. killed the president. And then I I I. apologized to the manager. I said, "I'm. so sorry. I read this book on JFK and. I'm super bummed out. I'll be over it by. the second show. I promise you." And. then they were like, "You better be.".

And I was like, "I promise I'm I'm good. at this. I know what I'm doing." And. then the second show was great. And they. they're like, "Don't do that again." I'm. like, "I won't I won't do it again." But. I genuinely freaked out. So I remember. very specifically cuz it was a you know. it was a big moment for me. I was on the. road and I ate [ __ ] at a comedy club. [laughter] So like that thing is in my. head forever. But that book was that was. my first step cuz I was like oh my is if. this is a true story I mean if this is. this book is accurate like someone. killed the president and they got away. with it and it wasn't just Lee Harvey.

Oswald even if he was involved. It was. and it was there was a conspiracy to to. distort the evidence of of the. assassination in terms of like the. difference in the discrepancies between. the report at Dallas when they first. received his body to Bethesda, Maryland. The there's a bullet hole wound that. they describe in the Dallas where they. call it a tracheotomy hole in Bethesda, Maryland. They're manipulating the. narrative to incorporate the single. gunman theory. >> Yeah. Have Have you ever had Gerald. Pausner on? >> I have not.

>> Okay. because I know he I haven't gone. really down the JFK rabbit hole, so I. don't know that much about it, but I. know he wrote the book Case Closed. >> Yeah, that book sucks. You need to get. him together with Oliver Stone and he'll. take that book apart. >> I I I bring him up just cuz I follow him. him on Twitter X and he was posting. recently about the I think he posted. about the tracheotomy thing and so but I. I don't really I. >> just the magic bullet theory alone is. complete utter nonsense to anybody who's. ever shot anything with a bullet. when. bullets hit bone and shatter bone. First.

of all, there's the fact that there was. more bullet fragments in Conny's wrist. than were missing from this magic. bullet. This magic bullet was only used. as a tool because they had to account. for a bullet that hit the underpass. So, there was a guy standing under the. underpass. He got hit with a ricochet. So, they're like, "Well, definitely that. bullet hit here." So, we have to. attribute all these wounds to one. bullet. So it had to go through Kennedy, bounce around, come out of him, hit. Connelly, go through him, go through his.

wrist, and then they magically find this. bullet in the gurnie. >> when they're bringing in the body like. or or or uh when they're bringing in. Connelly to to get medical assistance, they supposedly magically find this. bullet. This bullet has clearly been. shot into water. This bullet is either. water or pillows. This bullet has no. deformationations. It's pristine. It's. not missing any fragments, so it doesn't. account for the fragments in the wrist. It's a total horseshit idea. And then. there's the back to the left when you.

see the Zruder film where his head. explodes. It's all the people that were talking. about the shots coming from the grassy. null. It's the fact that so many of the. witnesses died in mysterious. circumstances. They died from car. accidents. They died from suicide. They. died from crime. They died from random. acts of violence. Like they did a. calculation of what are the odds that. all these witnesses would wind up dying. the way they did and it's like some. spectacular number. They [ __ ] killed. a bunch of people that were there.

>> Uh I'm sure you know this, but Vincent. Boulosi wrote like I think what might be. the longest non-fiction single volume. book ever written on the Kennedy. assassination uh remembering history or. something like that. Um it's like 1500. years. >> This is Bulliosi that was involved in. the Manson. >> He wrote like a a book about the JFK. assassination. And if you read Tom. O'Neal's book, it calls him a complete. charlatan. Like he's a crazy person. >> But uh yeah, I mean, if anyone has seen. that book in person, it it really is. like 1500 pages of like the densest,

tiniest little print. And it was so long. that it came with a CD of the notes that. were like a thousand additional pages. that couldn't fit in the volume. And. like a physical CD you had to put in. your computer to see the notes that he. >> Oh my god, that's so crazy. >> But I think it I think that could be. like the longest single volume. non-fiction book that I've ever seen. Um, I would love to get Gerald Pner in a. room with Oliver Stone because Oliver. Stone, even at his advanced age, he's so. smart and he's his recall is incredible. for dates and times and people that were.

involved. I don't think Lee Harvey. Oswald was innocent. I think Lee Harvey. Oswald was definitely an intelligence. agent. I think Lee Harvey Oswald, the. fact that he lived in Russia, the fact. that he came back to America, married a. Russian woman, he seems to have like. just very bizarre access to. So, I think. he was an intelligence agent. I think he. probably was involved in the whole. thing. But the calmness in which he. describes the fact that he's a psyrested. for killing the president, like to me, just that that guy's involved in some.

[ __ ] That's not how a normal person. reacts when you get accused of killing. the president. If you're innocent, you. go, I'm innocent. I didn't have anything. to do with this. I don't know why they. have me here. You'd be freaking the [ __ ]. out. And he's like, I'm just a psy. Oh, are you really like I think you're. probably an intelligence agent. There's. probably something creepy about you, but. >> Well, if anyone could get them to talk, I'm sure it's you. >> I think there was a lot of people. involved in the Kennedy assassination. I. think there was multiple shooters and I. think it was very coordinated and it was.

probably it probably involved our. government. It might have involved the. mafia, might have involved other. governments. Some people think it had. something to do with Israel because. Israel Kennedy did not want to give. Israel nuclear weapons. There's like a. there's a ton of stuff that's attached. to that assassination. But this idea of. case closed, [ __ ] you. There's no case. closed in this. This this is one of the. craziest conspiracies of all time. because it seems to be that they killed. the president and got away with it.

That's what it seems to be. And then the. Jolly West connection to Jack Ruby. So. Jack Ruby goes in and kills Lee Harvey. Oswald. Then in jail, Jolly West visits. him and he goes completely [ __ ]. insane. Completely insane. Loses his. mind. Thinks he's in hell. There's fire. The Jews are all burning. Like he's like. going nuts right after the guy who's in. charge of all these LSD studies visits. him. How convenient. >> One thing do you It's been I don't know. five years or whenever I read Tomu's. book when it came out the first time. So.

I don't remember that well. But the one. thing because I have a chapter on Jolly. West and one thing that stuck out to me. especially is one of the main crusades. he had in his life was against the death. penalty. You know, he he he writes a lot. about how it's completely immoral, this. thing he doesn't like. So to me, um. especially there's an earlier case. called this Jimmy Shaver case about this. guy who abused and killed this little. girl um that Jolly West was involved. into. Um, it seems to me the possibility. is also open that Jolly West might also.

have had an incentive to dose these. people with LSD if he did to prevent. them from getting the death sentence. because if they could, you know, appear. insane, maybe they would not get the. death penalty instead. >> Why was he so obsessed about the death. sentence? >> Uh, I don't know. I think he just. considered it immoral. Um, >> and what a fascinating thing that a guy. would ruin people's lives. >> would consider just ending them to be. immoral. >> Yeah. where a lot of those people wind. up killing themselves because of his. actions. >> Yeah. And he ended up killing himself, too.

>> He Well, I mean, it was an assisted. suicide with his son. His son, he son. later wrote a book about this, but his. son uh basically Jolly West had gotten. cancer that had metastasized throughout. his entire body and he was about to die. and he didn't really want to go through. the remaining months or whatever he had. left in agony. And so, he got his son to. stockpile a bunch of pills and feed them. to him when he basically became unable. to move for himself. And so he that. happened to Jolly West. Then the son did. that to Jolly West's wife, his own. mother later when I don't know exactly.

if she had a medical issue or something, but he helped her commit assisted. suicide. The son wrote a book about it. and then he later committed suicide as. well. >> Oh boy. Oh man. It's just so strange how so much so many. bad things can have come from just a few. people. Just a few people. and these. terrible ideas and this complete lack of. oversight. It's so much evil, >> including the Manson family, like.

because we've talked about it, the Tom. O'Neal book. >> Please, folks, if you're listening to. this, read that book. It's one of the. craziest books of all time by a man. completely obsessed with the story that. [clears throat] literally chased down. nothing but that story for 20 years. >> And the one of the one of the parts of. the book that I really enjoyed is the. writing style is kind of like a Gonzo. journal. like he's part of the story, you know, you're following on him on the. journey to discover this stuff. For me, that was the exciting part of the ride. It's like, oh, it's it's not just. telling you the story. It's like we're.

figuring out how a historian or a. journalist actually works. He's telling. you now I've got this interview and I'm. going to go do this and I'm going to go. find these documents. I didn't write. this book in that style because I just. wanted to stick to a description of MK. Ultra. But there is something tempting. about one of the exciting things about. history is doing the history and no one. really sees that process. You know how I. was describing going down the rabbit. hole to find the origin of that quote. There are a million stories like that. about how it's so crazy. For example, there was there was this guy named.

Venevver Bush. Uh he was President. Roosevelt's unofficial official really. science adviser during World War II. And. uh some pe people say Vanavar Bush, but. it's actually. >> is he connected to the bushes? >> No, no, no, no, no different bushes. >> But it's Venever Bush. Bush himself says. that it rhymes with beaver his name. So. it's Venever, but um he was writing his. autobiography. He he was in charge of. like coordinating scientific research. during World War II. And when he was. writing his autobiography, he did this. series of interviews that were like a. thousand pages long so that he could.

kind of ex talk about his life and he. would use chunks of that and as part of. his autobiography. Well, I wanted to get. that because for my first book, Venevver. Bush plays an important role because. he's the guy who gets Stanley Levelvel a. job in the OSS and Stanley level is my. main character. So, it's like, oh, Venevver Bush is like one of the main. guys who is, you know, playing a role in. this story. So, I go, there are a couple. different archives that have this. thousandpage interview that Veneva. Veneva Bush did. And every single page. is there in one of the versions except.

two pages that talk about Stanley level. in the OSS. And I thought that's the. exact thing I need. Like how is it out. of a thousand pages, the one thing. that's missing is the two pages. And so. I finally eventually find out that. there's another another copy of this. interview at a different repository like. at George Georgetown University or MIT, I forget which one it was. So I get them. to send me a photocopy of every single. page and it turns out that had the two. missing pages. So it's like, oh my gosh, now I can actually use that information. because but they didn't have the two.

pages out of a thousand that I actually. needed. They were missing, you know. So. there were like a thousand stories about. these crazy coincidences that happened. One of them again from my first book um. was about Stanley Levelvel, you know, he's this chemist in the OSS creating. all these ingenious like gadgets and. whatever. He talks in his memoir about. his wartime experience about being on. this biological warfare committee where. they were discussing the possibility of. using anthrax and tuleria and. tuberculosis and you know distributing.

this to across towns and just discussing. what would happen what would what would. we need to be able to do this what would. have to happen for us to engage in. biological warfare but he talks about. this in his memoir but I had never seen. you know a copy of that meeting minutes. of that meeting or anything he He said. that this this group, this biological. warfare committee, it was part of the. National Academy of Sciences. And I. thought, okay, well, that's interesting. But, you know, I can't hardly put it in. the book if I don't actually have the. minutes of the meeting where they're. talking about this because Stanley. Levelvel was known to exaggerate, to say.

the least, some of the stuff that he was. up to during the war. But then I thought. to myself, I kind of remember several. years earlier when I was writing my. dissertation before this book. I had. gone to the National Academy of Sciences. because I was working on, you know, some. scientists in government and I ended up. taking just a bunch of pictures of a lot. of the materials they had in their. archives. And I went back through the. material that I already had and it turns. out I had taken pictures of the minutes. of the very meeting Stanley Levelville. was talking about in his memoir. It was. already in my possession. I didn't have. to go there. I already had it. It's just.

a crazy coincidence that I already had. the thing exact thing I needed. >> Wow. >> So there there the the process of making. history is sometimes even more exciting. than the story itself. [laughter]. >> Well, the process it it seems like it. takes a very dedicated person to chase. down that process. Like all this things. all the things you're saying about. finding those two pages, the quote, like. there's so many versions of you wanting. to absolutely be sure, which is so. critical. And I'm so glad that you did. that and chased down those things.

because. >> a lot of lazy people wouldn't have gone. that far, right? [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Especially cuz no one's watching. >> Yeah. >> You know, you have books you could site. like, oh, it says here's the quote. >> Yeah. But for me, that's the the. enjoyment of it, you know. I I enjoy. doing I like going to the archives. I. like finding things. I feel like a. detective. You know, I'm in the archive. and I'm looking at these documents and. oh, I find this guy's name is mentioned. here. I know. Okay. So, to me, it's. exciting. It's like a treasure hunt. So, that's that's the fun part of it, you. know. Do you have a hard time. communicating with people that aren't. familiar with all this stuff in ter in.

terms of like this subject gets. discussed and someone brings it up and. they start asking questions? Do you do. you have a hard time of not looking. crazy? [laughter]. >> Do you know what I mean? Because like. there's a lot of people that are like. very intelligent, very educated. >> people that have not just uh no. information about this or no knowledge. of this, but an aversion. >> Yeah. Yeah. a thing that you would assume could not. have taken place. >> But it's not just that. It's like. there's an aversion to even rationally.

discussing it. >> Like I don't I am not the type of person. that's going to sit here and do. conspiracies with you. I've had a few. conversations like that with people that. do not believe in conspiracies. >> and they always fall apart under. scrutiny. They that that narrative falls. apart. Well, well, you don't think they. exist? Which ones don't you think exist? Well, a conspiracy I mean to me a. conspiracy is just a secret plot to do. something. There are a lot of secret. plots of course um. >> all throughout history. >> Now I mean there are conspiracy theories.

in the sense that there are stuff that. people make up and isn't actually true. But to say conspiracies themselves are. necessarily false, well any secret plot. is a conspiracy. >> Not just that, I think we live in a day. and age where there's a lot of fake. conspiracies that are thrown in to muddy. the water. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, in fact, that. actually ties in at the end of this. book. I talk about a little bit about. kind of the what's kind of called. censorship through noise. The idea that. we can put so much noise out there that. no one's really going to know what to.

trust. And so um I give an example of. the idea that AIDS was created in a. government laboratory like Fort. Dedricch. Um in the in the really 1980s. there was a Soviet kind of propaganda. mouthpiece newspaper in India called The. Patriot. And this would just publish. like KGB propaganda. >> Wow. and in India. >> In India. Yeah. And one of the stories. in that newspaper was basically saying. AIDS was created in a government. government laboratory. But it didn't. just say that. In order to get there, it. first said, "Did you know that the CIA.

was involved in dozing people with. drugs?" Which is completely true. Did. you know that the military was involved. in in spraying certain germs over cities. to, you know, determine the distribution. of the air currents to see if we were. attacked by in biological warfare. situation how the air currents would. spread these germs? They were just. spraying like yeast and stuff over but. you know it's bacteria. So did you know. that this did you know that they've. performed experiments on these drug. addicts and this and that and this and. also did you know that in Fort Dedric. they created a biological weapon called.

AIDS. So it's you know it's the the lie. is made more potent because it's. sandwiched in between all these truths. And so this newspaper the Patriot. published this article. >> basically saying all these true things. and then one thing at the end that they. were actually pushing. But if you knew. that all these other things were true, you might assume that that final thing. is true as well. And other countries. around the world where they had these. front newspapers, they would also. publish the same kind of story. Did you. know that? And then AIDS was created in. this government laboratory. And then. those newspapers would cite the Indian.

newspaper, The Patriot, as evidence that. other independent newspapers had also. come to this conclusion. And if many. independent sources are coming to this, surely it means that it's got some. credibility to it, not knowing that the. actual connection, the KGB is just. sponsoring all this, you know. So it's a. Yeah. censorship through noise. The idea. that there are certain things we don't. want people to know or maybe we do not. want people to know but not understand. or something. And so we're going to. flood the zone with all this, you know, crap basically to maybe nobody's going. to know what to believe. Maybe it is the. case that the CIA created AIDS in Fort.

Deddrick or whatever it is. So that's a. one tactic that I talk about at the very. end. It's also a great way to minimize. the impact of all the things that. actually are true on that list because. you attach something that's completely. kooky. >> And if you do that enough times, you can. muddy the waters on basically every. subject that there is. >> Yeah. So it it can go both ways in the. sense that. >> fake stories can delegitimize true. stories, but true stories legitimize. fake stories, >> right? Both ways. And then you have the. social media impact of bots, which is. just really unstudied. We don't really.

know the numbers. We've talked about. this before, but there was a former FBI. analyst before the purchase of Twitter. that he was looking at and he thinks. it's 80% bots. >> 80% of the discourse, 80% of the traffic. is not human or people that are being. paid to do it. >> It's like some government entity wanting. to do this to seow confusion or. >> there's a lot of different factors. There's us, there's them, there's. everybody. There's NOS's, there's uh. different packs, and they they all have.

like you can go online, there's. companies that will fund a social. campaign for you. Like, so imagine if. you wanted to go online and uh attack. people over a certain issue. Like say if. you're trying to get a bill passed and. you want to attack people over a certain. issue, you can fund a campaign using. bots to promote your position. and it. could give the illusion of some sort of. some agreement online or disagreement.

online or maybe you could take a thing. that's a very reasonable position and. make it seem completely ridiculous and. then also seem like there's a bunch of. support that it's completely ridiculous. like a lot of people believe and they. start citing things that aren't true and. quotes that aren't true and you could. just completely screw up the idea of. what the truth is. Yeah, I know the. Russian government had I think it was. called like the internet research agency. or something like that. Yeah. And. there's there's a book called active. measure measures by Thomas Rid and he. kind of chronicles um what they were.

doing. Basically young people would be. hired to pose as whoever anyone wanted. to be posed as. I guess the Russian. government to spread certain amounts of. disinformation to certain communities. So they would just create fake profiles. and your whole job at work would be to. cycle through these different profiles. and comment on people's posts and post. your own and then boost the post of your. fellow disinformation actors in this IRA. so that their post would be seen by more. people. There's a whole uh there's a. whole.

uh organization or a whole you know uh. whatever it is. >> What was the woman's name that came on. to talk about that? >> Rene Desta. >> Renee Desta. That's right. Yeah. She was. saying how like she had to study all. these memes and so many of them were. really funny and like these people that. were in charge of they what they wanted. to do was make sure the people online in. America were arguing about everything. and the more you could get people at. each other's throats the more you could.

destroy their democracy. This was part. of the idea of it just this just to have. another element that people have to deal. with and that they were organizing um. Texas separatist meetings directly. across the street from these Muslim. meetings. Like they were doing it on. purpose. They were trying to get people. to argue with each other, trying to get. people to be in conflict with each. other. >> Yeah. And I mean one of the things now. with social media, but just in a. globalized world, any amount of conflict. is kind of available for anyone to see.

So, you know, the worst thing in the. world that happens today, you're. probably going to learn about it. You're. going to know about it, which that can't. be good for your mental health to. constantly be bombarded by this negative. stuff. It's not that in the past all. this negative stuff didn't happen. It's. just that in the past you were probably. more focused on your community because. it's not like you're got constant access. to what's going on in Myanmar at this. second or whatever it is. So, the fact. that you're constantly able to see the. worst thing happening in the world, um, that cannot be good just for your. mentality. It's definitely not good, but. it's also a social experiment because we.

didn't know what would happen when you. get all this bad news from all over the. world. It's never happened before. So, there's never been a device that you. carry in your pocket that gives you the. worst news of the day all day long. >> That's a it's totally new. So anybody. growing up today is bombarded. Which is. why I mean it has to account for some of. the anxiety that kids face today because. you see heightened levels of anxiety, heightened levels of fear about climate. or any anything that they tell you. that's a thing that you really need to. freak out about. It's like you're you're.

being inundated and you don't have a. chance to just enjoy the moment that. you're in because everything is like. this total existential crisis that's. going to destroy humanity if you don't. act now. Oh god, there's a genocide. going on. It's like no matter what it. is, it's like you're being bombarded by. everything. The economy is a crash. No. kings. Ah, ISIS is coming. Jesus, >> gun control. Ah, >> do you have a lot of nostalgia for the. pre- internet days? Cuz I don't remember. it that well, but no.

>> No, [ __ ] those times. [laughter]. >> That was stupid. Um, I think with the. internet with all its flaws is way. better. It's way better. It's way better. than the government being in control of. the narrative. And you know, now we know. intelligence agencies absolutely in. control of what's distributed in. mainstream news. Like the idea that the. mainstream news back then was. independent and free and they were the. press. Like no, no. The government. agencies and intelligence agencies have. been involved in propaganda from the.

jump. And it's way better now. You have. more access to information. It's way. more complicated. It's way more. complicated to live your life. It's way. more psychologically complicated to be. in the moment and to be present and to. just enjoy your life. It's harder. It's. much harder because you are constantly. being informed and there's the addiction. aspect of it. You know, the addiction to. being informed, the addiction to seeing. what people are saying and seeing the oh. what did this guy do? He stole all this.

money. Like we were in the uh green room. last night. They were reading the story. about this uh congress person who stole. money and how they did it and then they. bought a giant diamond ring. [laughter]. So they wear this giant three karat. diamond ring on $100,000 a year salary. Like what are you doing you [ __ ]. crazy person? But it's like that that's. what you're that's what you're taking in. all day instead of your friends, instead. of your your life and just having an.

experience in your neighborhood. No, you're just you're constantly looking at. all the problems that are happening all. over the world all the time. >> Yeah. >> And you don't get a break. >> Um but it's better than being ignorant. It's just like you have to you have to. find a way to weather whatever that. psychological storm is and seek shelter. and don't always just stay out there in. it and just get bombarded by. psychological hail because that's kind. of what it is. [laughter] You got to. have a strong roof and stay inside.

sometimes. >> Yeah. The uh [laughter] this is a weird. uh transition, but you said. psychological aail. It made me think of. this uh this project during World War II. the OSS did called the bat bomb. Have. you are you familiar with it? No. >> This it just made me think of these. things kind of raining down. But I read. about this in the dirty tricks. department. But during World War II, there was this concept of how how can we. better target cities or buildings with. our incendiary explosives. We can drop.

bombs, but I mean, those aren't. targeted. They're just going to fall. where they fall. And if the wind's going. the wrong way, they're they're not even. going to hit the target that we want. them to. So, this guy named Little. Adams, he was working with the OSS. He. had the idea. He had just gone to. Carl'sbad Caverns. What if we get bats. and we attach napalm to them and then we. release these over Japanese cities? The. bats are going to roost into the. buildings in these cities and then we. can have the napalm time delayed so that. it'll explode after a certain amount of. time that we release them and it'll set.

fires to all these buildings. So we have. like targeted incendiaries instead of. just random bombs falling. So it it. sounds like kind of a crazy idea, but he. happened to be friends with Eleanor. Roosevelt because he had flown planes. before and he had given her a ride in. his plane and they kind of knew each. other. So she he sent this kind of. report on the bat bomb to Eleanor. Roosevelt. She gave it to her husband, President Roosevelt, who gave it to. William Donovan, the head of the OSS, and with a note attached to the thing. that he gave to Donovan, it said this, this man is not a nut, you know, take. this seriously. So [laughter] Donovan of.

course he gives this to the research and. development branch Stanley Levelvel that. I write about in my first book and it. becomes this bat bomb project that now. he level feels obligated to do because. the president's saying we need to. research this. So they end up going to. Carl'sbad Caverns and to some caverns. here in Texas and they scoop up a bunch. of bats and they they do a few tests. with them. Um they actually get a guy. named Lewis Fizer who invented napalm to. create tiny little incendiaries that you. could strap to bats. Um, this is a. little bit of a digression, but Fizer.

had been at Harvard. He was a chemist. there. And when he was inventing Napalm, he it was like a jellied gasoline. He. would do the tests on the soccer field. at Harvard, just like in the middle of. the campus. That's that's where Napal. was invented. Just like [laughter] in. the middle of Harvard's campus, these. bombs would be exploding and people. would get mad at him. People would get. mad, not because he was detonating these. bombs, but because he was hogging the. soccer fields and the drill sergeant. needed it for practice. And so there's. like these disputes back and forth. >> Oh my god. But so he was hired by the. OSS to create these tiny little.

incendiaries to strap to these bats. So. the OS did a few experiments with this. before the incendiaries were strapped. They uh they put like fake incendiaries. on them. They the idea was to cool down. these bats. We're going to fly them in a. plane over the desert like out in Utah. or somewhere and we're going to drop. these bats and see if they actually kind. of disperse. Um, it turns out that they. were using Mexican free tailed bats, which I I don't think actually. hibernate, but they they travel south. for the winter. Um, and so they cooled.

down these bats in this like artificial. refrigerator, but apparently they had. cooled them down too much. So when they. dropped them from the plane, they just. like fell straight down to the ground. and never woke up. And so they just. splattered across the desert. So that. that was one of the [laughter] tests. Another of the tests they wanted to do a. live experiment where they had an actual. bat and with an actual napal bomb. attached to it to see if it could like. fly off or or to see if it would. actually like carry this weight. But. they had it in like somewhat of a. controlled environment. They they cooled. this bat down, put it in artificial.

hibernation and then they um were taking. pictures of it, you know, to see how. everything operated. But then the bat. started kind of waking up and it flew. off before they could grab it and it. actually flew into a control tower and. it burst into flame and the whole thing. caught on fire and burned down. So it. turned out this thing actually worked. but again it was never deployed against. Japan. This is right at the end of World. War II and you know there already the. Manhattan project was kind of successful. at that point. So there was no need for. the bat bomb. But if people are. interested in that kind of story and how. crazy that can get that's in these books.

too. [laughter]. Do you know you you know about the. proposal for the gay bomb? >> That sounds familiar about like. releasing some kind of chemical that. makes that distracts people like they'll. they'll be so infatuated with each other. these soldiers that we can go Yeah. >> Not just that, but then that somehow or. another it would demoralize them and. make them easy to conquer. >> Huh. Interesting. >> Which didn't make any sense, especially. historically when you consider the. Spartans, you [laughter] know, they were. all gay. They were like craziest force. ever. Like that's not going to stop. people. Well, you know, that's actually. one of the big inspirations for MK. Ultra, not the gay bomb, but the idea.

that we could use chemicals to defeat an. enemy army. So, Sydney Gotley before he. was really running MK Ultra experiments, he w he had attended a few conferences. where some people would talk, this guy. named Luther Green who was part of the. army and Luther Green was in charge of. like developing and experimenting with. nerve agents, you know, that could. incapacitate. These are like some of the. most potent agents that have ever been. created. A fraction of an ounce applied. to your skin can be lethal. So he wanted. to find a substance, Green did, that.

could mimic the effects of a ner nerve. agent, like incapacitate someone without. actually killing them. His idea was that. if we could get this substance and we. can drop it over enemy territory, it. could incapacitate these soldiers just. through chemical warfare, but we. wouldn't actually have to kill them. They would be incapacitated for a. certain amount of time, and then we. could send the Marines in and they could. gather up all these people and we can we. can conquer this territory. we can. defeat this enemy army without actually. having to to kill anyone or for any of. our people to be killed. So Stanley. Levelvel was really interested in this.

concept. It you know uh war without. death was what they were talking about. War without death. We should use. chemical weapons that just incapacitate. people. So, one of the things that got. um I I should say Sydney Gotautle. interested in investigating LSD was the. fact that maybe this could be an. incapacitant that we could use to. basically eliminate an enemy army for. the time being and then we could go and. conquer them without actually having to. kill them ourselves. It was he was. trying to use it almost as a more. ethical form of warfare where you know. instead of killing someone you just.

incapacitate them. >> Wow. [sighs]. Um, I think we covered it all. [laughter] Listen, your book's amazing. I'm really excited that you put in the. time to write it, and I can't wait to. see what David Chase does with it. Um, and uh, when it when it happens, let's. do this again. I'd love to. I feel like. we could talk about this stuff for hours. and hours and hours. >> There there's a lot of stuff to go into, too. Yeah. There's. >> Is there an audio book of this? >> There is an audio book. Yeah. So, >> did you read it? >> I I didn't read it. Nice. Yeah. They got.

a They got a professional for that. >> Oh, man. You would kill it. You have a. great voice. >> Thank you. Thank you. But um yeah, but. the nice thing is it's the same narrator. who did both my first and second book. So it's there's some kind of continuity. between that. So. >> Okay. So you're happy with it. >> Yeah. Yeah. It turned out really He did. a really great job. >> So and the other book is uh The Dirty. Tricks Department. Um Stanley Lovl, the. OSS and the Masterminds of World War II. Secret Warfare. >> I appreciate it. >> Thank you. It was awesome. I [music]. really appreciate it. It was really fun.

Bye everybody. >> [music].