Joe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. Gentlemen, good to see you, brother. >> Hey, good to see you again. >> How you been? >> I've been hanging, man. How about. yourself? >> I'm good. I'm good. And Jeff, nice to. meet you as well. >> Nice to meet you, Joe. >> This is uh another one of your very. unusual friendships, Darl. [laughter]. >> I'm trying to make it the norm. You. understand? Well, I mean, you're you're.

a real example of what can be done just. by being a nice person. >> Hey, thank you, man, for for the mention. with u um Bono. >> Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. >> Um so, for people that don't know, uh. Daryl has I mean, how many people now. have you converted? >> I I I stopped counting after 200 and. some. >> Daryl, his journey initially started. You're a musician. You met a clansman at. a bar and he couldn't believe what a. nice guy you were. You struck up a.

friendship and I played like Jerry Lee. Lewis and he didn't understand that. [laughter]. >> That too, the talent. And then um this. guy quit the clan because of you and. handed you his outfit and said like I'm. done. Um obviously I'm wrong. All this. is wrong. And you then went on to start. meeting a lot of other clan members and. a lot of other, you know, different. neo-Nazi factions. And you got a lot of. these people to quit these hateful.

organizations. >> Well, I got them to to rethink. >> because I gave them things, perspectives. they had not considered before or not. been exposed to and that caused them to. quit. You know, it wasn't like I I. wasn't trying to get them out. I was. just trying to show them a different. path. >> Right. But it's just your patience and. your ability to communicate to people is. just very admirable because that's a. very tough path. You know, you for. people just listening, you're a black.

man, you're meeting a clansman and you. strike up a friendship. You wind up. having dinner at his house, hanging out. with him. He's like, "You're actually a. really nice guy." He's like, "Fuck, what. the [ __ ] am I doing with my life?" And. just by your own personality and just. being a a good human, you converted. them. >> But you know, an interesting component. to that also happens cuz, you know, there are people who won't talk to me, you know, and they want to fight me and. stuff and all the kind of crazy stuff. I've seen it all, right? >> But, uh, the some of their buddies who.

are just as hateful as they are, you. know, when they talk to me and they end. up leaving, their life improves. Hate is. exhausting, right? You know, and it hate. begets more hate. >> Yeah. >> But so when they leave, their life. improves and then the buddy who wanted. to fight me or or didn't want to talk to. me, he sees his buddy's life improve, then he reconsiders. >> So it has that component to it as well. >> And so it's been more than 200 now, which is really amazing. And you've I.

think just these conversations that. you've had with a lot of people sort of. opened up a lot of people's eyes as. well. like, you know, you think of. someone like that's a a KKK member, neo-Nazi or whatever it is, and you go, "Well, that guy's got to be a piece of. [ __ ] as a human being." And then you. realize like, well, a lot of these. people just got [ __ ] over in life and. started off on the wrong foot and were. with the wrong people and got. indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and. experienced the wrong things and next.

thing you know, they have this rigid. idea of what the world is and how they. fit in and it's all [ __ ] up and it's. all wrong and they just don't run into. anyone that shows them a different. perspective. Like if you're in a small. town and you're around just a bunch of. [ __ ] all the time, you're around the. same [ __ ] Like you might think. everyone's an [ __ ]. >> right? >> And then you go on vacation, you know, like maybe in your in Hawaii. Like, God, everybody's nicer. What's [laughter]. going on? Maybe I have a totally. different view of the world. Well, you. could have that with everything. You.

could have that with geographical. locations. You could have that with. racial disparities. You could have that. with everything. >> Well, I mean, you know, let's let's. let's take racism out of the picture for. a second. Let's let's look at our own. country, you know, um as a musician, right? I do a lot I' I've played in all. 50 states, okay? You know, and when I. sign, you know, go to I have a booking. in say let's say New York City, you. know, everything's got, you know, got to. be on paper, got to sign this contract, and they want things like yesterday, you. know, it's very fast-paced, etc. >> Um, so, you know, you sign a contract.

and people adhere to it, whatever. my. experience in the south, you know, say. Mississippi, Georgia, something like. that, they don't care about contracts. even though I I get one. You know, a. handshake is good enough. You know, they. they they feel that their word is their. bond. So, you know, you present them. with a contract, it's like, what? You. don't trust me? You know, that kind of. thing, right? >> In the Midwest, which is where I'm from. originally, uh, you know, it takes a. while for people to get to know you. They want they want to get to know you. before they commit. They're very close. to the vest. out in California. It's.

like, I'll get around to it maybe next. week, maybe the week after, you know. >> Right. Right. Now, Jeff, how did you. guys meet? >> So, um, I was contacted by a filmmaker. and they said, "Uh, would you come down. and and film um, as part of this. program?" So, I didn't know I was. meeting Daryl Davis and the movement. We. knew who Daryl Davis was cuz he was. pulling people out of this movement. >> Explain the movement. The. >> what movement you were a part of? >> I was a part of the National Socialist. Movement. Um I was. >> which is Nazis. >> Nazis.

>> for people that don't it sounds like. socialist like oh college campuses you. know you want Marxism free healthc care. for all. No [laughter]. >> different kind of socialism. >> Yeah. Neo-Nazism. Yeah. So. >> and how did you get indoctrinated into. that? >> So I was a part of that movement for 27. years. >> Wow. 25. >> How old how old are you? >> So I'm 51. >> Okay. You look young. I thought you were. about 40. I was like what the [ __ ]. >> Well that's okay. >> No you look good. Thank you. Um, >> which is crazy for a Nazi. You would. think it's a lot of stress.

>> You' think it is a lot of stress. It. hate stress. Yeah. Look, I lost all my. hair. [laughter]. >> I lost mine, too. I'm not a. [laughter]. >> So, how old were you when you got into. it? >> When I first started, the fascination. with it was about fourth grade. >> Fourth grade. >> Fourth grade. >> How? >> My grandfather fought in Hitler's army. during the war and my great uncles did. as well. So, um, my mother and. grandparents came over after the war. Wait a minute. Fought in Hitler's army, >> correct? >> Oh, they fought for the Nazis.

>> Yes. >> Wow. >> Yes. So, uh my mother and grandparents. came over after the war. But so, one. would think so he was indoctrinated by. his family. Not not the truth. Uh quite. opposite actually. But I was fascinated. I knew that history and I knew that my. grandfather had fought and I looked up. to him. So, um, I sought out on that. journey myself, you know, and, uh, kind. of. >> But what attracted you to that? Like, first of all, you said you have a made. in Detroit church. Are you from Detroit?

>> Yes. Well, well, I'm based in Detroit. now. >> So, were you living in Detroit at the. time? >> Yes. >> So, why what made you fascinated with. Nazis living in Detroit? >> Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota. Now, I live in Detroit now is what I meant. Um, but um, knowing that family history, I had just uh, looked up to my. grandfather and I thought, you know, this he's a strong individual. This is a. um, I'm just going to say it like I. thought it was cool at the time and. there's nothing cool about it, but I. wasn't taught to hate. I wasn't raised. to hate. And um, so I seek out this.

movement. I join as a teenager, quickly. rise up through the ranks. Within a. couple of years, I was appointed the. national leader of that organization. And then I was there for 27 years. So, I. was taught racism and hate and to be an. anti-semite. >> Now, when you were in the fourth grade, what were you what were you do you. remember what your feelings were about. people? >> Um, I I wasn't a racist at that point or. or anything like that. It was just. thinking that it was cool seeing the. videos of I remember watching old World. War II documentaries thinking I'm going.

to find my grandfather in these these. footages, you know, and I just looked up. to him and I sought out that path. Then. once you're indoctrinated, once you join. and you're you're uh overwhelmed with. this kind of ideology, it becomes your. whole world. It's your echo chamber. Everything about it, everything that. you're involved in uh circles around. that world. >> And so like when you're in the fourth. grade and you get interested in this, how do you eventually like join up and. meet the Nazis? Like how does that. happen? >> Well, at that age, you're not, you know, you're not meeting the Nazis or anything.

like that. Um today, kids are online and. they're. >> and they are that's a good point, right? But at that point I wasn't. So I was. searching it out and by the time I was. uh um 18 then I'm joining. >> Yeah. You didn't have Kanye songs back. then, >> right? [laughter]. That song is so crazy. Like somebody. used to pull Kanye saw to give him a. hug. That sounds crazy. >> So [clears throat]. you what was the first organization that. you like officially became a part of and. what what did they do?

>> So the National Socialist Movement was. the group that I sought out. >> How did you find them first of all? Because this was all before the. internet, right? >> Right. This was a really kind of strange. story. So, I'm looking for books. I'm. trying to read everything I can on it. I'm trying to find these. >> Did you have other hobbies or just being. a Nazi? >> No, I had I. >> had to get into baseball or anything. like that. >> I was a long-haired rock and roll. singer. >> No [ __ ] way. >> You are rock and roll Nazi. That's nuts, >> right? [laughter]. >> That seems like so that's like jumbo. shrimp, right? [laughter]. >> That's so counterintuitive.

How are you a rock and roll Nazi? That's. rock and roll is all about like freedom. and creativity and expression. >> I I know there's a lot of. counterintuitive stuff in my life. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Well, it just shows you people are. really complicated. >> Yeah. >> You know, um so when you first found. these people, so you're a rock and roll. musician and um how do you how do you. find them? >> So I found them in a book at the. library. I'm ordering all these books. and it was written by a sociologist or.

something and they had all these. addresses of everybody that participated. in the book in the back of the book. So. I'm writing physically writing not like. emailing today but like writing all. these organizations and then I. eventually uh. >> How old were you at the time? >> Like 18. >> So you're 18. You're writing Nazi groups. saying hey I'm ready. Sign me up. >> Yep. >> Wow. Okay. So who responds? So. everybody, some of the groups were. closed down at that point, but most of. the groups responded and I'm looking. through all the literature and and um I.

meet up with the National Socialist. Movement at the time. It was called. National Socialist American Workers. Freedom Movement. Again, this is the. Nazis. >> That's a lot of words. >> That's what I thought. Yeah. So. >> workers freedom movement. >> Yeah. It's a lot of a lot of. >> freedom for some people. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Another counterintuitive. [laughter] thing there. >> Socialist for some people some people, >> right? Not that not not that socialism, not leftwing. >> Yeah, weird socialism. >> Um, so like what were they involved in? Like so when you meet them, do you have.

to have like a is there a vetting. process? They make sure you're not a fed. or sit you down and you know what are. you looking for? Why are you involved? Why you interested? >> Yeah. And back back then the group was. pretty small, but the reason that I. picked that organization, I mean it was. only in a handful of states at the time. I joined. It was pretty small. It was a. it was a the National Socialist Movement. was a continuation of the movement of. George Lincoln Rockwell who was the. original founder of the American Nazi. party. So that's why I wanted to join. that particular organization because it.

had that history because I was a fan of. history. I always wanted to be um as. close to the German movement as. possible. Um so that was that was the. group that I sought out. And then there. there is like a vetting process. You. know, they want to know you sign up an. application and um later on in in the. group um I was doing things like having. people sign non-disclosure agreements. and um doing background checks on people. and things of that nature. >> I want to point this out because this is. a really crazy fact. It's going to blow. a lot of people's minds. Before World.

War II, there was a Nazi rally in. Madison Square Garden. >> Yeah. American Bund. The German American. Bund. >> Yep. It is nuts when you see it in. Madison Square Garden and you see, you. know, the swastika, the whole deal, and. you're like, this is before anybody had. connected this with evil, >> right? >> Like back then that was an ancient Hindu. symbol. Like there's a Hindu temple near. my old house in California and it has. swastikas all over it and they because.

of the temple's from the 1800s and they. have to tell people, hey, like there's a. sign, hey, it's not that kind of. swastika. Back in 2018, the State. Department sent me over to India to. speak and lecture and you see these. these these. it's a peace good luck kind of thing. >> It was also a symbol for Shodtoon. karate. When I was a kid when we would. meet uh these Shodtoon karate uh. tournaments would go to the tournaments. and meet these uh practitioners. Some of. them have swastika patches. This is in.

the 80s. >> This [clears throat] is nuts. Jamie, show that photo again. >> There's a video. >> Oh, okay. show the video. Um the V it's. really crazy cuz you you see this. enormous crowd and this was before. people had associated Nazis with a bad. thing. You know, back then it was just. this national socialist party. They. thought, "Okay, we're we're good." By. the way, that's how everybody used to. salute the American flag. Did you know. that? >> Yes.

>> Which is really crazy. the Nazi salute. now that Elon got in trouble for. [laughter]. that is how you used to pledge of. allegiance, >> right? >> And then once the Nazis came along, all. right, we got to abandon that. This is. this is connected. Got to ditch the. little mustache and no more of that. >> But this is uh it's it's a really crazy. video to watch because it really makes. you think like how things can shift. >> Well, you know, the the highest. percentage of white people in this. country are of German descent.

>> Really? >> Yeah. The second highest are British. descent. Yeah. >> Wow. I had no idea. German. I would have. >> a lot of people think it's British, but. >> I would have thought. Yeah. God, that's. nuts. >> And then you notice in that video, Joe, um they also have George Washington up. there. So, they've Americanized neo uh. Nazism. >> But it was different back then, right? This wasn't a racial cleansing like they. weren't involved in eugenics. They. weren't thinking in those terms, right? I think that all came later, but this. was all part of the the movement here in.

the US, >> right? But what was the core tenants of. this movement, the American Nazi. movement in the 1930s before the war? >> Basically, it was a it was a German. activists and and they were allied with. uh you know, Hitler's national. socialism. That was that. >> So, was it anti-semitic? Was it. anti-Jewish back then? >> Sure. Yes, >> it was. Even so, this whole rally is a. big anti-semitism rally. >> Yeah. I mean I that was before my time. but yeah. >> you're a historian on the Nazis. Seems. like you're an enthusiast.

>> I was. Yeah. [laughter]. [clears throat]. >> So when you first get brought in, you're. 18. Like what do they give you tasks to. do? Do they teach you about things? Like. how's it go? >> Yeah. So a lot of the propagandizing and. stuff is books that you're reading and. studying and stuff, but the group had. like meetings. You would have literature. distributions. It would do um. >> like mind comp like what kind of reading. that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I had already read that by. at 16 I already read that but the group. is you know recommending books like that.

or Henry Ford's international Jew other. um other books like that as well. >> Is that Henry Ford the the car guy? >> Yes. >> He wrote a book called International. Jew. >> You know he was very very anti-Semitic. and he he he supported the Nazis. >> Mhm. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler. on his desk and Hitler had a picture of. Henry Ford on his desk. >> Whoa. >> You'd be surprised, man, about some of. the people. [laughter]. >> [ __ ].

>> You know, Walt Disney, same thing. IBM. at the time, same thing. Yeah. >> Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I did I. had heard about Walt Disney and I heard. something about the roots of IBM as. well. Well, I mean, so many German. automobile manufacturers, right? like. Audi, Volkswagen, you know, all started. off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Weren't Was it a Nazi owned company? >> Uh, I don't know if it was if they were. owned by the Nazi, but they were. definitely a German company. Yeah, >> that was one of the craziest things. about the Kanye thing cuz Kanye um lost.

his contract with Adidas because he had. said anti-Semitic things. Adidas was. started by the Nazis. >> Wow. which is just like. >> but that goes to show people people can. advance and change. Yes. You know the. Red Cross used to not allow black blood. and then when they finally allow black. blood they sec you know to donate blood. this when. >> back when the Red Cross first started. collecting blood. Okay. Because, you. know, as you know, or you probably know, uh, Charles Drew, you know, a black, uh,

scientist, right, was the one who who. discovered how to give, you know, blood. transfusions, right? >> So, Red Cross began collecting blood. >> and, uh, they would not take black blood. and then when they finally took black. blood, they segregated the blood. It. doesn't matter if it's a black person's. blood, you know, you should segregate it. by O positive or OB negative or whatever. it is, right? But not by the color of. someone's skin. >> That's crazy. So they give you books, they you know. kind of indoctrinate you like what is in.

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additional terms and responsible gaming. resources, see dkg.co/audio. Limited time offer. >> Basically, um, you know, you go to. meetings. >> Yeah, you go to meetings. You do uh. >> How often do these meetings? >> It it varied, you know. So, sometimes it. was once a week, other times it was once. a month. It just kind of depend. It. depends on the group as well. Some are. very active, some are less active. >> How far were the meetings from your home. where you lived in Detroit? >> Well, this was growing up in Minnesota. So, in Minnesota, they were pretty close. by. I moved to the Twin Cities. So, >> were you shocked by that they were that.

close? >> No. No. I had I had been looking for. them since I was a teenager, but then by. the time I was 18, I was able to find. them. And. >> did you move to be close to where the. meetings are held? >> No. I moved to the Twin Cities cuz I. wanted to be close to my band. They were. based out of there. though. But then um. early on I was doxed on a radio show. I. was going under a fake name at like 19. years old and I still had the long hair. I got it tucked up in a hat and I went. on a radio show and I was uh doxed early. on and that kind of changed the. trajectory. >> What did you go on the radio show for?

>> With the movement with the national. >> and then you got doxed as the band. member. >> Well, no. I I. >> you got dox like your home address and. all that stuff? >> My parents. Um, so I I was going I was. going under the name Jeff Stevens. because I didn't wanted to I wanted to. separate my music career from from the. movement and also protect my family. because I knew this was a a movement. that people didn't like and that could. cause put them in harm's way. And um so. um I'm on the air and somehow the the. host says, you know, your name is not. I'm spewing anti-semitic dril. Um which.

was pretty typical of of how I behaved. at the time. And um the woman that was. uh running the show, she goes, "Your. name is not Jeff Stevens. It's Jeff. Scoop. S C H O E P. And your mother. lives in this town. She's an attorney. She works here. Your father works in. manufacturing. He works here. And we're. going to call your mother in the next. commercial break." And my world just. fell apart. And I'm, you know, I look. back now um and I try not to blame.

anybody else because these were my. choices, my poor choices. So I take. responsibility for that. But um at 19. years old, that changed my trajectory. I. felt like my whole world just collapsed. at that point. >> Did you think like, "Wow, all these. people are mad at me. Maybe I'm wrong.". >> No. You know, you would think with this. kind of stuff going on in your life, you. know, you would uh reflect on that, but. I doubled down. And that's pretty common. in in that uh in that world when someone. is faced with that kind of pressure is. they double down, they become more.

entrenched. So, it's like every lash of. the proverbial whip, anybody that tried. to stop me from being involved in it or. tried to dissuade me, it just made me. more um dedicated to it and more intense. in that belief system. So, I'm I'm. thinking my I'm going to ruin my band's. career now. So, I quit the band. I. shaved my head and um I put all that. energy that I had put into music into. the movement. I felt like I had no. choice. What that what that did um that. doxing, it affected my mother's career. So, I mean, this was a hate has.

consequences and hate it was some it was. like a downward spiral for for me and. this is very common for anybody that's. involved in it. It separates you from. your family, from those you love. It uh. isolates you and um what it did to my. mother's career is, as I mentioned, she. was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge. So, she had ran to be a judge. She was. elected to be a judge. And um in the. state of Minnesota there's a at the time. anyways this is back in the 90s and um.

there was a formality and this is the. way my mother explained to me at the. time. She says the governor called me. and she said Mrs. Scoop uh your son's a. leader in the Nazi party. Your father. fought in the German army during the. war. I do not feel you are fit to be a. judge in this state. >> So that that was just devast. That's. something I carry that guilt and shame. to this day for for doing that. But at. the time I was like, "Okay, >> the system is after my family." That's. how I felt. >> And it just made me double down and.

become more uh radical. >> Were you Did you have a job at the time? >> Yeah. >> What did you do for a job? >> I was doing all kinds of jobs, you know, working in factories and Pizza Hut and, you know, just any anywhere I could. >> But your main focus was on the movement. >> Well, my main focus was on music until. all that happened and then and then it. became the movement. Yeah. And so like. what are the different things that you. guys did? >> So the group would organize, you know, social gatherings where people would.

just hang out and drink and party and. give talks and then there would be um. formal meetings where people would get. dressed up and have these meetings. Um. you would do uh rallies. Uh one of the. first rallies dressed up. >> dressed up in like Nazi uniforms. Yeah. Like full on German Nazi uniforms, armbands, old deal. >> Yep. Back then it was armbands and brown. shirts and the black ties. Yep. >> Is that you? >> Yeah, that's that's the old uniform. Yep.

>> That's crazy. So, at any time while you're doing this, did you think, "What am I doing? I'm on. the wrong path. This is crazy.". >> No. >> No. >> No. Not until later. When was later? >> Around the time when I met Daryl Davis. Around. >> Were you already having second thoughts. about the direction of your life? >> That's that's a tough one to answer. I. was I was starting to see the humanity. in others like after I moved to Detroit.

in uh December of '07 and Detroit's a. majority uh minority city or non uh. people of different races. So, I'm. having more interactions with people of. other races. By 2016, you know, I'd met. Daryl Davis. And um like I said, I. didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis, but uh. >> How'd you guys meet? >> It was uh for a film for Daryl's film, Accidental Courtesy. >> Okay. Right. >> So, they had reached out and they. explained the show and I said, "Okay, you know, because any opportunity to uh.

spread the propaganda of the movement, I'm going to do it unless it was like. Jerry Springer or something." So, it. sounded legit. I agreed to it. Didn't. know I was meeting Daryl. I still would. have done it, but I would have probably. prepared to debate this guy because I. knew who he was. I knew he was pulling. people out of the movement. And and um. so this was at a place called Chris's. Hot Dogs in Alabama where Hank Williams. had written the song. It was Hey, Good-looking. You weren't there, right? >> About a waitress, >> right? And um my girl and I were sitting.

outside and. Daryl steps out of a vehicle and I'm. thinking, you know, I recognize this. guy. He comes up, shakes my hand, we. shake hands, and I'm think he says, "Hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff. Scoop." And I'm thinking, "Where do I. know that name from? Where do I know his. face?" It didn't quite register because. I'm just thinking about uh you know, this debate that we're going to get. into. And um then after we sat down, it. clicked. I was like, "Oh, this is the. guy that gets people out of these.

organizations." So, at this point, I'm. the head of the National Socialist. Movement, and Daryl and I are getting. along great. We're talking about music. We're talking about all these kind of. things and it clicks in my head, oh wow, I'm getting along too well with this. guy. He's the enemy, you know, or. so-called enemy, you know, he's on the. other side. So, I better step it up. here. So, I pound my fist on the table. and I said, you know, Darl, I'll fight. to the last bullet for my people. >> Yeah. And how Howard um. prior prior to us getting together, the.

producer and director of the uh. documentary is called Accidental. Courtesy. They asked [clears throat] me, you know, they followed me around the. country. I was conducting interviews. with KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different, you know, people. And. they said, uh, do you know, uh, Jeff. Scoop, and I said, I know who he is. I've never met him. Uh, would you be. open to talking with him and. interviewing him? I said, sure. So, they. contacted him and then they let me know, okay, you know, we were down in Alabama.

at the time. You know, he he's going to. come down to Alabama. you know, you can. interview him tomorrow and went to this. place called Chris's Hot Dog Stand, Chris's Grill, whatever, where Hank. Williams made famous. And we're we're. going to do this interview in there. So, they said, uh, they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and said, "We we're. going to get everything set up. We're. we'll have Jeff here, and we're going to. film you when you first come in and meet. Jeff. We want to catch that on camera. Then you'll sit down across from him in.

the booth and interview him." I said, "Okay, fine." So, I go to the hotel. I. wait for their call. Uh they call and. say, "Okay, we're ready." So, I get in. this rental car and I drive to to the uh. grill. And when I pull up, I see who. looks like Jeff sitting on this bench. out front with this girl. So, I'm. thinking, well, that can't be him cuz. he's he's supposed to be inside sitting. in the booth. So, I just sat in the. vehicle, you know, looking at him, just. trying to figure this out. Maybe he came. out for a smoke or something like that. I'm watching him. He's not going inside. So, I got out and when I got out and.

started walking towards him, I think, you know, that is the dude. I never met. him, but I knew what he looked like. I. said, "You wonder why he's out here.". So, I went over. I said, "Hey, um, are. you Jeff Scoop?" He goes, "Yeah." I. said, "I'm Daryl Davis." Shook his hand. He introduced me to his to his lady. friend. And I said, I thought you were. supposed to be inside. He goes, "Well, I. was inside. I just came out or. whatever." So, we walk in. Of course, they didn't get to capture the moment. that we met. So, they're like all. freaked out and stuff. And uh we sat. down in the booth and started I started.

interviewing him and as he pointed out. you know uh he was getting along too. well with me. you know just chitty you know chit. chatting talking about music and this. that and the other and he's saying you. know um you know uh he was a musician. I. said I'm a musician. I said what kind of. music do you know do do you like? What. kind of music do you play? Well I play. rock. And I said well you know rock was. invented by by black musicians. Oh let's. not go there. You know, Elvis Presley. invented rock. No, Elvis did not invent.

rock, right? I said, "Chuck Barry. invented rock, right?" And he goes, "Okay, [clears throat] well, you know, you probably know more about music than. I do, you know?" So, but what what. difference does it make, you know, what. what color the musician is? I said, "Well, it doesn't make any difference to. me, but but obviously it makes a. difference to you because, you know, in. our history books and we talk about Ben. Franklin, who who cares what color Ben. Franklin is? You know, if he invented. electricity, he invented electricity, right?" And he goes, "Well, yeah. Well, um, I know I know about the guy who. invented peanut butter. And I [laughter]. said, "Okay,

I'm serious." And I said, "Okay, what's. his name?" He thought about, he goes, "Carver." Carver. I said, "What's his. first name?" He said, "George Washington. Carver." I said, "Okay, very good." I. shook his hand, [clears throat] right? And so then um uh what did he say? He um. you know, he's he runs the NSM, National. Socialist Movement, and the whole white. supremacy ideology is called the. movement. All right. So anyway, I said, 'Well, uh, he goes, you know, I I said, it's a racist movement. He said, no, it's it's like a white civil rights.

movement for white people. Uh, he goes, you know, you you you got the NAACP. And. I said, yes. I said, but there are white. members of the NAACP. Can I join the. NSM? He goes, no. And you know, I said, why not? Well, then it's a racist. movement, you know. And then we got into. and he goes, you know, I will fight for. the last bullet for my people. I'm like, whoa. you. He just kind of like, you. know, flipped out here. I said, "Okay.". >> Did you do that because you were. realizing that you were getting a little. too friendly with him? >> Oh, yeah. Yes. [laughter].

>> That's so funny. Like, I'm keeping my. ideology no matter what. [laughter]. >> Yes. Yes. >> That's funny. You're not going to trick. me by being a cool guy. [laughter]. >> We laugh about it now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out, >> I would imagine. >> Yeah, cuz uh I realized it. But you know. what? >> So, what year was this? >> 2016. >> 16. Darl, what was the first year you. came on the podcast? >> Oh gosh. Um,

>> kind of around then, right? >> Yeah. 15 or 16. >> Yeah. Um, so how many other different. things had you done where you he he had. known about you? Had you done like a lot. of different interviews? A lot of. different. >> Yeah. Back then? >> Oh, yeah. I've been, you know, doing a a. lot of interviews, uh, magazines, and. >> so you guys were just very aware of. anybody who was like [ __ ] up the. cause. >> Yeah. >> With their awesome personality. [laughter].

>> I [laughter] mean, think about it. You're in you're in this movement and. you've got a guy that's pulling people. out and and he's not just pulling out. just anybody. Some of these people are. wizardiz Wizards. Grand Dragons, Imperial Wizards. Yeah, >> Wizards and Dragons is [ __ ]. hilarious, by the way. [laughter]. So a after after the thing was over um. you know they're you know meandering. around putting up getting their [snorts]. cameras packed up I pulled Jeff aside. and just you know talked to him just. one-on-one manto man no cameras whatever.

and you know we just talked about a. couple different things talked about. women and this that and the other and. just you know what guys talk about. >> normal. >> yeah and uh and we exchanged phone. numbers. and then uh the following year 2006 uh7. uh he was involved in the uh in that. large white supremacist rally in. Charlottesville, Virginia that turned. deadly. And I knew a lot of the people. who were involved in there, including um. >> that was the one when the guy in the car. ran over people in the crowd. >> Yes. Yes. And I know the guy who.

organized that thing. He's been in my. house, you know, I've I've sat down with. them. I've been in some of their homes, uh etc. And um I'd gotten wind that uh. that Jeff was was uh was rethinking. You. know, I said, "You know what? Let me, you know, let me let me stop reading all. this stuff and find out for myself." So. I found his number that, you know, he. had given me and fortunately he still. had the same number. I called him up and. we we you know he remembered me of. course and we chatted on the phone and. then I had um we we stayed in contact.

and and then in 2020. I had a gig up in New York City and they. were you know they booked me and said. you know uh you know talk about you know. how you meet these people and what you. all talk about and and what they think. about this. I said, 'Well, wait a. minute. Uh, I can tell you about how I. meet them and and how I go about it, but. as far as what they think about stuff, I. can tell you, but that'll be secondhand. I said, 'If you want, I can bring I can. bring people because every now and then.

I bring a a former clansman that I took. out of the movement or whatever to talk, you know, answer questions. I said, how. about if I just bring somebody, you. know, whoa, you know, you know, we got. we got to clear that with with with the. sponsors or whoever. So, they got back. to me and said, yeah, you know, who do. you want to bring? I said, "Well, you. know, you know, let me let me give you. some options or whatever." So, I called. Jeff. I said, "You know, would you be. willing to come out and talk about, you. know, your experiences, what got you in, what got you out, etc." And he said, "Yeah." So, u I called him back. I said,

"Okay." I got this guy, uh, he was the. commander of the largest neo-Nazi. organization in the country for 25. years. He was a 27-year member. And, um, they said, "Okay, fine." So, uh, I. called Jeff back and said, "Okay, you're. on, man. you know, they're going to fly. you out to New York and you'll come on. and this is the first time you we'd ever. done anything together like that and. where where we both are on the same page. right and it went over very very well. and that was the last gig either of us. had before everything got shut down for.

co. >> now when you said this is an ad by. BetterHelp. we have a lot of big holidays coming up. but before you start preparing for. trick-or-treaters or make plans for. travel for Thanksgiving there's one. other big day you should focus on World. Mental Health Day. It's October 10th and. if you don't know already, it's a great. day to send some love to therapists. Maybe a therapist has made a positive. impact on you or someone you love.

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a quick questionnaire. This World Mental. Health Day, we're celebrating the. therapists who've helped millions of. people take a step forward. If you're. ready to find the right therapist for. you, BetterHelp can help you start that. journey. Our listeners get 10% off their. first month at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhp.com/jre. You're both on the same page. What do. you mean by that? >> Well, both in the same mindset. uh you.

know he he's not fighting to the last. bullet for his people. He's fighting for. all people. He's he realizes that you. know what what he had experienced for 25. for 25 out of the 27 years he was a. member he no longer wanted to do. >> And so when exactly was that shift for. you? >> So I broke free from the movement in. early in March of 19. Um but I was going. through this process for several years. So um typically you want somebody in.

like the work that we do, we want. someone to disengage from the movement. and then we work on the dradicalization. part. My journey was backwards. So I'm. dradicalizing while I'm still involved. Now if somebody would have told me that. while I was involved, those been. fighting words, you know, but it was. basically like the mind wasn't catching. up with what was going on. So that's. when I was starting those last years. when I was involved. I'm saying this is. a white civil rights group. It's not a. hate group. you know, and from the. outside looking in, you go, "Man, this. guy's insane." Of course, it's a hate.

group, you know. Um, and I see I see. that now, obviously. Um, >> tell them about your girlfriends who. told you was a cult. >> Yeah. So, um, when I was involved, every. girl that I was seeing, and I I was, uh, seeing quite a few different women, just. about everyone were that if they would. come and check out the the movement, they would say, "Whoa, this is like a. cult, and you're like a cult leader.". And I'm thinking in my head, what is. wrong with these choices I'm making in. women? what is with these poor. [laughter] choices? >> You know what I mean? Like that's a. serious co cognitive dissonance.

>> But that's that's the that's the thought. that that goes through your head is like. it's it's not me. >> So was it initially meeting Daryl that. started this journey for you? >> Yes. It was one of the major major first. seeds. Uh. >> and so but you guys hadn't seen each. other quite a while and then on your own. you just started exploring these ideas. and changing your perspective. Well, that and then not long after. meeting Daryl, I met a a Muslim. filmmaker by the name of Dia Khan. And. uh in her film, White Wright, Meeting.

the Enemy, and I'd gotten to know Dia. quite well over the course of that. filming. And uh there was a number of. people that left the the NSM from. interacting with Dia. And uh she has a. very similar approach to how Daryl Davis. approaches things. It's about listening. It's about being curious. It's about. asking questions and sharing different. perspectives. And um that that curiosity. and that that uh s sincerity it can help. uh re restructure the way someone thinks.

and the way they see see people. So like. Dia says to me and this is actually in. the film White Right Meeting the enemy. Um um you can see the change like I. showed the clip a lot of times at my. talks and I'll tell the audience I'll. say take a look at my eyes in that clip. because you can see it. The cameraman. caught it zoomed in on my eyes. She's. saying, you know, the ideology that you, instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me. She says, the ideology. that you stand for, the things that you. believe in, they made me feel less than, ugly, not worthy as a child growing up.

That's how I felt. That's how your. ideology made me feel. And no one aside. from Daryl Davis had ever approached me. with anything like that. I was told I. was wrong. But that human connection, when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I'd lost my humanity a long time. ago. And what Daryl and Dia did is they. cracked that door open, that window to. compassion. And I could see their. humanity. Daryl did something very.

similar. He told me about how racism and. hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. That hurt. You know, I mean, I'm not going to say it at the time when. I'm still in the movement, but in the. inside, it really hurt. That bothered. me. It's like, this is not this noble, grand cause that I believed it was if. it's causing that kind of pain and. suffering to other people. >> So, what were the steps that you had to. take before you were ready to leave the. movement? >> I hate to try everything and I I I beat. myself up over that uh a lot, but I I.

kept saying it's a white civil rights. group. I'm telling every press outlet. I'm sitting down with when they're in, don't call us a Nazi group. It's a white. civil rights organization. Of course, most of them wouldn't publish that cuz. it is what it is. But I'm going through. these different changes. I'm having. rules put into the organization where um. the last couple years they changed from. the swastika and the public view to. using a an old runic symbol, the old. rune. Um today they switched back uh. they use the swastika again. But I was. doing things like that to try to change.

the image of the group as my own beliefs. were shifting. I was trying to shift. that into the party. And and eventually. I was like, because as a man, I thought, I'm going to fix this. I got to fix. this. What this mistake that I made, this this uh terrible uh um movement, I've got to fix it. And there's no. fixing it. All I was doing was putting. lipstick on a pig, you know, dressing up. the Nazi party, trying to make it look. pretty. It still is what it is. So. eventually um after 2019 rolls around I. was like I I just have to I have to get.

away from this. This is not right. I. can't. >> And what was the response within the. movement when you left? >> Not so good. [clears throat] Not so. good. Um you can leave these. organizations. Um and it depends. Uh. different groups operate different ways. Uh what I was involved in was above. ground. So it's uh mostly legal. Um. you've got underground groups that. operate a little bit differently. they'll come after you and things like. that. Um, you can leave, but if you walk. away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor basically.

to that cause. So, I knew that was going. to happen when I started speaking out. So, I didn't speak out immediately, but. um by the end of uh late 2019, it was. August or September of 19. I started. speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism. And. >> so, this is before you did that event. with Daryl. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was. already out. And so how were you. denouncing the movement? Where were you. doing this? >> I did a press release and a website and. and uh made it public because u that's.

that would be seen and and understood. >> Now were you concerned at all about. retaliation. about you being attacked or them coming. for you? >> You know, there's always those concerns, but I I don't I don't try to dwell on. those uh those things. You know, I was. in a high stress dangerous environment. for a lot of years. So this is just. another kind of a high stress. environment. But I don't want people to. think, you know, be afraid to leave. There's there's no reason to be afraid. to leave, you know. I mean, obviously. you got to be aware of your surroundings. and wise to it, but um I've, you know,

I'm I'm always prepared. >> And when you were leaving and you you. know, when you were on your way out and. changing your ideas about the movement. and then leaving, did anybody come with. you? >> A lot of people came with me. Um, the. National Socialist Movement was the. largest neo-Nazi organization of its. kind when I left. Uh, today it's it's. quite small. It's barely hanging on. So, >> people in his movement began emailing. me, people I didn't even know, and ask. me, "Is this true?" Cuz he'd mentioned.

my name or whatever else. And I said, "Yeah." And next thing you know, they're. leaving. And I'd call him. I said, 'You. know, do you know so and so? Yeah, he he. was in my movement, you know. I said, 'Well, he called me or he emailed me and. and wants to get out. >> Wow. So, how many people do you think. left? >> Oh, hundreds left. Hundreds left. >> How many How many are in. >> it? It's. >> How big is the movement in total. roughly? >> We never had a a solid number on it, but. over the years I could tell you there. was thousands and thousands of people. that were involved. And then um you.

know, we would work with other. organizations. So, I spoke at clan. functions, skin head functions, other. other uh white nationalist organizations. functions. So, because I was that. high-profile in that world and and uh I. was the most high-profile. uh white nationalist to ever walk away. in the United States. So, I felt like. >> not just walk away, but denounce. >> denounce. >> and shift completely shift your. perspective. >> So, I felt like I I needed to do. something right to make up for the. damage that I had done. And and this is.

one way to do it is to help other people. um break free and get out of that world. So, >> and so is this a continual process? Do. other people from the movement now start. to read your stuff and see you speak and. then leave as well? And you also have a. book out. Um, just tell everybody. It's. called American Nazi: From Hate to. Humanity. And uh, there it is. Did you do an audio. version of this? >> It's in the works. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's not out yet. >> Um, [clears throat] so do more people. continue to reach out to you that are in. the movement because of this and try to.

get out as well? >> Absolutely. And we're helping people all. the time. Daryl and I both are helping. people all the time get out and and um. it's because of that um presence that I. had there. A lot of people will say, you. know, I I knew him then or I knew of. him. Um so they'll they'll feel. comfortable in reaching out. So it's. kind of like street cred, I guess, you. know, like like if you were an alcoholic. for 20 years and you know that you have. a more of an ability to help other. people. >> Yeah. >> Yes. And another thing, you know, people.

like like Jeff and people of that status. that, you know, the high status, it. takes, you know, while while they may. change themselves, it takes him a while. to figure out if they can leave because. that's their job. In Jeff's case, he he. that was his job for 25 out of the 27. years he was a member to lead that. organization and build it and recruit. and bring people in. He brought in. numerous people. So number one, how do. you go back to those people and say, "I.

was wrong." You know, you got all this. power. Everybody looks up to you. You're. you're their leader, right? Their cult. leader is, your girlfriends would tell. you. So [laughter]. >> So, >> thanks, Darl. >> But so, you know, that weighs on you and. then, uh, you know, that is your. full-time job while you're in there. you. know, the money you make is from selling. Nazi merchandise, t-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you. have, medallions, etc. Um, so now you're.

leaving. How are you going to pay your. bills? How are you going to support your. family? Uh, all that kind of thing. You. know, you need a job. Well, you're not. trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you going to put on. your resume when you go to apply for a. job? I was a Nazi leader for 20 for the. last 25 years, >> right? So, you know, all of that weighs. on you and so you need some kind of. outside support, you know, and which is. a lot of stuff, you know, you know, that. I provide because, you know, you talk. somebody and you give them another.

perspective and and they leave. You. can't just leave them swinging in the. wind and you go on about your business, right? >> Because, you know, they they have to to. to to belong to something or or enter. into society and they can't go back. They've already betrayed, you know, their quote unquote family. So, they're. going to find something else to get into. unless you know you provide that kind of. support. >> And what support do you provide them? >> The shoulder to talk to, uh, connect. them. I brought him to New York, had him. speak to to crowds. And an interesting.

thing happened. I want I I want you to. tell the story about Duke. >> Um, you know, show him to to other people, let him know, hey, Daryl Davis is not an. exception. you know, uh because you know. what what I need to do I find oftentimes. is you know when I become friends with. these people and they the mentality. becomes you know you know Daryl's okay. for a black guy it's all those other. black people or all those other Jewish. people you know that kind of thing. So.

when when I feel I can trust that. individual, right, you know, that. they're not going to bring harm to I'm. not I'm not concerned about myself, but. I know that they're not going to bring. harm to friends of mine or other people. Then I will invite them, you know, to my. home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other black friends, some of. my white friends who look just like. them, but don't agree with them. So that. way they can see I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception because now. they're being exposed to people who. think the same way I do.

>> Right. Now, were you doing that for. money? Were you running the movement? Was that your job job or did you have. another job as well? >> Um, for a lot of years I was uh. basically running the record label of. the movement and that was that was my. job as well. So. >> Oh, the movement has a record label. >> White Power Rock. >> Yeah. >> Oh, Christ. >> Yeah. So that's that's that was my job. Yeah. [laughter]. Uh, so you got to find another job, too. >> Yeah. >> And you have to find a job where they're. willing to hire a Nazi. >> Former Nazi.

>> Former [laughter] recent. >> Get it right, Joe. Come on. Come on, Joe. >> Recently, though. I mean, it's tough on. a resume. >> Yeah. >> What did you wind up doing for work? >> Um, it it was tough. It was tough for a. while. Um, now I help get people out of. extremist groups. I speak all over the. country, all over the world. Um, I've. spoke at uh I've been at Nobel with uh. the Nobel Peace Center with Diaon. Um, I. just got back from Australia, did a book. tour over there. I've spoke at uh combat. anti-semitism movement. Um, today I do a. lot of work with the Simon Weisenthal.

Center um educating young people. I've. done uh stuff even with the with the. government um US government. I've. advised other governments as well on. extremism. So, this is uh this is what I. do now. >> What did you do right away though? Like. what was the first things you did? >> I really had to do a lot of selfwork, a. lot of a lot of processing. Um. it was that was. >> But like what did you do to make a. living? >> I didn't I was living off of my savings.

>> Yeah. >> Are you familiar with Simon Visenthal? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um so he Jeff now works with the. Simon Visenthal Center. That's a. complete 180. You know, he was the most. famous, you know, Nazi hunter. I knew. Simon Visenthal. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. I've been doing this for like 45. years. And uh back in the 1980s, I went. to Vienna, Austria, which is where he. lives, and I had dinner with Simon. Visenthal. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And picked his brain. >> Wow. How old is he back then? >> He was old back then. Yeah. I'm not sure.

how old he was. He was probably maybe in. his 70s, maybe. >> You know, a fun fact. Um, if Verer Bon. Braonn, the not the head guy from NASA. that got us to the moon, if he was alive. today, the Simon Whisinthal Center said. they would prosecute him for crimes. against humanity. >> Wow. I did not know that. >> Yeah. He was a legit Nazi. Yeah. Operation Paperclip, the United States. brought over all the best Nazi rocket. scientists to. >> structure our rocket program. >> Yeah.

>> Fun fact. >> A lot of people don't know that, but. that's true. Yeah. Well, they all had. those dueling scars on their faces, too. >> So, when I um got Jeff to uh to do the. um thing up in New York, he asked me, you know, is this open to the public? And I I said, "Yeah, you know, anybody. can come." And uh he goes, "Yeah, I I. I'm inviting a friend of mine who lives. in New York. He was he was my chief of. security, you know, while I was in the. movement, you know, this, you know, and. now now he's out." And so, you go ahead.

and tell tell that. This is amazing. story, >> right? So, uh um it's okay to say his. name because he's public out with it, but um this is Duke Schneider. He was my. chief of security for a long time, and. he had left the movement before I did. And um his story was, you know, it's a. love conquer hate story. So, he had some. kind of uh thyroid issues, cancer in his. his thyroid, and he was in the hospital. And um um his father's nurse was a woman. by the name of Katherine. and she's the.

African-American lady. And um she was. there with Duke in the hospital and and. he's like, Katherine, you don't have to. stay here at the hospital with me. You. know, you can you can leave. You don't. need I might be here for a while. And. she says, "I am not leaving your side. I'm going to be here in this hospital. until you walk up out of here and you're. better. I'm going to stay here, you. know, so don't argue with me. I'm going. to be here." And at that moment, Duke. looks to her and he says, "When I walk. up out of this hospital and get better, I'm going to marry you.". >> Whoa. and they have been married ever.

since. And this is one of the I mean. this couple if you see them you'd swear. they just like high school sweethearts. They are just amazing amazing people. There's Duke Schneider. Yes. >> That's crazy. Wow. >> So, you know, this goes to show Joe. I. mean, we all you, Jeff, me, anybody we. know when we were kids, we were told a. tiger does not change his stripes. A. leopard does not change his spots. That's who they are. And that is true. You know, so why would we think that a.

Nazi or neo-Nazi or a clansman would. change their Robin Hood or their. swastika armband or something? Well, that's where we're wrong. The the. stripes and and spots on the tiger and. lion are immutable characteristics. They're born with those. They can't. change them. But the the the clan robe. and hood and the swastika are are. acquired. That's learned behavior. And. what can be learned can be unlearned. Jeff is an example of that. Duke. Schneider is an example of that. And. when I first got into to to wanting to.

meet these people, you wasn't trying to. get anybody out, and I still don't. really try to get people out. Um, I just. went in answer to that question that. plagued me from the age of 10. How can. you hate me? You don't even know me. Just tell me that and then you go your. way, I go my way. But what happened was. during the conversation, you know, you. start off this far apart on the. ideological spectrum. You talk to. somebody for five minutes, that gap. narrows because you found something in. common. >> You keep on talking, now you're here.

You found more in common. At this point, you're having a cordial relationship. with your adversary. You know, you might. not be going out to dinner with him or. whatever, but you're having a cordial. relationship. Keep on talking and you. found more in common. And now it's it's. like a friendship. You don't agree on. everything, but you have found more in. common than you have in contrast. And. the trivial things that you found in. contrast like skin color or whether you. go to a church, a synagogue, a mosque or. a temple begin to matter less and less. because it's caused a cognitive.

dissonance. Yeah. >> And that and so when the first person. left. >> um I I thought you this person this is a. fluke. You know this guy was probably. wasn't you know invested in it fully. But then it happened again and again and. again and I thought okay well now. something I must be doing when I'm. interviewing these people is back when I. was writing my first book. um what am I. doing? And I narrowed it down to about. five core values that everybody wants. between traveling with my parents as a. child in the uh you know US state.

department foreign services as diplomats. uh and now traveling as an adult. musician and lecturer. I I told you. before I've been to all 50 states. I've. been to 64 countries on six continents. And I can tell you this, no matter how. far I've gone from our country, right. next door to Canada, right next door to. Mexico or halfway around the globe, no. matter who I meet, maybe around the. world, they don't look like me or speak. my language or worship as I do or not. worship at all. I've always concluded. that every person I've met is a human.

being. And as such, every human being. wants these five core values in their. lives. Everyone wants to be loved. We. all want to be respected. We want to be. heard. We want to be treated fairly. and. truthfully. And we want the same things. for our family as anybody else would. want for their family. And if we can. learn to apply those five core values or. any of those five values when we find. ourselves in an adversarial situation or. in a culture or society in which we're. unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I'll.

guarantee you that your navigation of. that society, that culture, that. situation will be much more smooth, much. more positive, and much more productive. And so that's what was happening because. these people have been interviewed. before but they didn't leave. So that. you know it's how you talk to people not. more so than what you say to people and. how you listen to them you know and when. I say respect it doesn't mean that I. respect what they're saying. >> I'm respecting their right to say it. >> Right.

>> Right. >> And so I think you know that's been one. of the key things uh that worked with. with uh Jeff and worked with other. people. And when it started happening. more and more, I realized I'd stumbled. onto something and I needed to keep. doing this. And that's why I'm still. doing it uh today. And Jeff and I go. out, you know, oftentimes, you know, we. just came back from Indianapolis a few. weeks ago. We were in Orlando speaking. to to the Holocaust Center there and. wherever else. When you look back on. your life and you think about the.

enormous amount of time that you spent. in the movement and now being. essentially of a completely different. mindset like what does that feel like. for you when you look back on yourself? >> It's it's like two different people. So. like a lot of times when I'll speak. about that life I'll say that was my. past life. You know I know it's not my. past life. still the same life, but it. it it is like looking back at a. different person. Like um when I started. doing work with the Weisenthal Center, um one of the things was after after.

talks, a lot of people in the Jewish. community were like, I don't get it. I. don't you're such a nice guy. I don't. get it. Doesn't make sense. >> So, we started showing video clips of my. speeches and things that I did when I. was in the movement um ahead of those. things. And I was always and and then. people were like, "Oh, now I get you. know, because they they could see it. They could see how different that was. and how how different the person is, not. the person nice guy that they met, but. that's who I was. So, um, and I and I.

always try to get out of showing those. clips. I'm like, could I be backstage or. somewhere else? Cuz I don't want to look. at it. Like, I it's hard to I mean, I. can look at it. Obviously, I do it all. the time, but it's tough. It's tough. because it's like, man, >> does it feel shame? >> Shame, guilt. Um, you just feel terrible. about it. Um, so I think that drives the. work a lot of the work that uh I'm doing. now and and um is to help others and to. repair some of that damage that's been. done. Well, I think your perspective is. very important for people to understand.

that, you know, someone can shift their. mindset and that just because someone. has a hateful evil ideology they've. attached themselves to doesn't mean. they're a hateful evil person. inherently. It's learned behavior and. learned thinking. And this is the. problem with human beings is we're. incredibly malleable. You know, human. beings are we follow the leader and we. adopt ideologies and we're also very.

tribal. So you become a part of a group. whether you call it a family or a team. or whatever. You hate the other people. because they're they're the enemy now. It's us against them and we're all in. this together. And that unites everybody. that's a part of the movement and it. makes you feel like you're a part of. something bigger. Yep. Yeah. It's a. trap. It's a terrible trap. And it's a. trap that human beings can easily fall. into. And you see it with political. ideologies. You see it with religion. You see it with everything. I mean. people just we we are very tribal and uh.

that can manifest itself in some very. disgusting thinking. >> I want to add something to that. I think. you're 100% right for the most part. Um, but um, the tribal thing never never. came into into into play with me and nor. did it come into play with other people. who were raised the way I did. I was um, I first started traveling abroad.

overseas at the age of three in 1961. I. was born in 58, so I'm 67 now. And my. [clears throat] first introduction to. school was abroad. The State Department. assigns you to the American embassy in. some foreign country for two years. And. then you come back home at the end of. the two years. You're here for a few. months, maybe a year, and then you're. back over to another foreign country for. two years. Back and forth, back and. forth. My dad's job as a US diplomat was. to foster better relations between a. foreign country and our US government. Right? So, which is why, you know, we're.

overseas. So, my first intro. introduction to school was abroad. I did. kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in. different schools in different. countries. The in between grades I would. do back home here, right? My my. classmates abroad, now we're talking. about the 1960s, my classmates abroad. were from all over the world because. anybody who had an embassy stationed. where we had our American embassy, all. of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this.

little desk here might have been from. Czechoslovakia. that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from. Japan. You know, if you open the door to. my classroom and look in, you would say, "Oh, you know, this is a United Nations. of Little Children." That's exactly what. it was. That became my baseline for what. school was supposed to be. But every. time I'd come home, I would either be in. all black schools or black and white. schools, meaning the still segregated or. the newly integrated. And just because. desegregation was passed four years. before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme.

Court, schools did not integrate. overnight. It took years and years. And. even in some places today in 2025, this. country is still struggling with. integration. Right? >> So. that became my norm, you know, this. multicultural thing. I didn't know. tribes. Everybody was part of my tribe. >> and that's why I didn't understand. racism because, you know, now if I if I. had grown up here my whole life. >> and and my first experience with. somebody who did not look like me was. having bottles and rocks thrown at me at.

the age of 10 in a parade, um maybe I. wouldn't be doing this work today. Maybe. I would be, [clears throat] oh, I'm. going to stay away from those from those. color of people, you know, that kind of. thing. So, I didn't know tribalization. simply because of my uh my growing up. experience. >> Very unique experience. >> Exactly. And most. today, you know, and back then, uh, you. know, you buy your kids, you're talking. 1960s. You buy your kids dolls. Um, I. had G.I. Joe dolls, right? Uh, you know,

I I don't have any siblings, but you. know, my friends, you know, they have. Barbie dolls. And back then, all the GI. Joes were white. All the Barbie dolls. were white. So, black kids had to play. with little white dolls. You know, there. was nothing that looked like them. Today. you have, you know, all kinds of color. of dolls and and nationalities and. ethnicities, uh, which broadens the. scope of these children. So when they. see the real deal walking down the. street, you know, well, that's my. favorite doll, so you know, I'm okay. with that person rather than, you know,

you you reinforce that tribalism by. buying your kids the dolls that look. like you and your parents. >> Yeah. Well, that makes sense. And it. also sets you up to be uniquely. qualified to do what you do, you know, like as a person who did grow up around. so many different people. >> So I try to share that, I guess, you. know, vicariously. Yeah. >> With people. >> Jeeoff, did you grow up around I mean. other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people? Like. >> Yeah. So grow where I grew up is like in.

the middle of a corn field basically. I. grew up in a little town. It was barely. a thousand people. um all white uh. basically um the only interactions you. had with other races was typically in. the summertime like when uh farm workers. would come up from Mexico and and things. like that and a lot of times people just. didn't talk to them. So I didn't really. have any hardly any interactions with. people of other races. Um. >> so where did the negative ideas about. other races come from? >> The movement. It came from the movement. >> All from the movement. Not from personal.

experience at all. >> Nope. I did not have bad personal. experiences. In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I. had with other people, I mean, I've had. assassination attempts. I've got scars. from attacks, all white people. >> And this is the assassination. Is this. post leaving or during? >> During during. >> during. >> Why are they trying to kill you? >> Well, Antifa tried to tried to get me. The scar across the back of my head was. from Tire Iron. >> Where what happened there? Um it was uh.

they infiltrated the organization and um. we had went to a um and this is in my. book American Nazi by the way, but um we. had went to a um Rochester, Minnesota. and to pass out leaflets and it was. myself and my roommate and then two. other guys that had infiltrated. And um. at the end of the night, make a long. story short, I'm reaching into the trunk. of a car. And as I'm reaching down into. the trunk of the car to pick up this box. of merchandise from the from the record. label, um the guy pulls out a tire iron.

and smashes me across the back of the. head and says, "We're here to kill you.". >> Whoa. >> And um it felt like the like being. scalped. The whole back of my head was. uh scalp was hanging down and I just I. wouldn't get knocked out. I would have. been killed if I would have been knocked. out. I just remember stumbling, putting. my hand across the back of my head and. it felt like a wet sponge and just kind. of staggering and my roommate blocked. another hit cuz the guy tried to hit me.

again cuz I didn't go down. And uh by. that time I'm just kind of, you know, stunned, staggering, concussion, whatever you want to call it. And um. started stumbling into traffic in the. middle of the street. And then, you. know, he had gotten away from the guy. and pulled me off to the other side of. the street. And um yeah, that was that. was one incident. >> So there's multiple times people try to. kill you. >> I've been shot at. Yeah. >> And this is all. >> I've had stabbing people tried to stab. me, too. Yeah. >> This is also why you're in the movement.

>> Oh, yeah. >> And who was shooting at you? >> Gangs. Yeah. >> So people that had just found out that. you guys were Nazis and they just tried. to shoot you. >> Well, we were I mean we were wearing the. symbols everywhere like I mean flight. jackets with swastika patches and stuff. like that. So, I mean, that was going to. be uh that was pretty volatile, especially in different neighborhoods. When you talk to other people that have. left the movement, do they have like is. there a pivotal moment in a lot of these.

people's lives where they realize that. this was the wrong path? Is it an. accumulation of other people's. experiences that they they take into. consideration? Like, what what is a is. there a main factor? It it really is different for everybody, but usually it doesn't happen like a. snap of a finger, you know, like I. could, you know, like we were talking. about hundreds of people have left the. movement. I can think of just like on. one hand the people that have left over. like one act of kindness or one one. simple thing. Very few people do that.

It's usually a process. So, they're. going through this shift in thinking. kind of like I was. Um, and they're. they're questioning it. They're. questioning like, well, what it's. there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. there's a lot of confirmation bias that. takes place and they're having. experiences sometimes with people of. other races that helps um you know where. it doesn't fit the narrative of the. movement, what's being spewed. So. they're they're fighting with this in. their head for a long time. Um for. different people it's different things. It's sometimes it's just seeing the. humanity in the people that you once.

dehumanized. Darl, this is such a heavy path you're. on. Does it I I know it must feel very. rewarding, but interacting with so many. people that have been indoctrinated into. hate, does it sometimes feel. overwhelming? >> No, it it doesn't. I mean, I've had some. disappointments, you know, people not. everybody's going to change, right?

>> You know, on on either side, black, white, you know. >> Have you had people that were close that. were close to shifting and they fell. back? It's like alcoholics who fall off. the wagon, you know, that kind of thing. But I've had some who I never thought. would change. I mean, there'll be people. who will on on all sides who will go to. their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, anti-Semitic. >> Um, but even some of those I've had come. back and change. But I know not not all. would do it. Some are just dieh hard. You know, they're not going to change.

for anything. And so I don't give up on those people, but I move them down my list of. priorities and deal with the ones who. are open to talking. I mean, even though. they're just as hateful and violent and. racist or whatever, as you know, if they. will talk, there's an opportunity to. plant a seed. The seed's not going to. bloom overnight, you know. Uh so when it. happens, great. you know, then I moved. my way down to the ones who who, you. know, didn't want to talk to me or or we. got into some kind of scuffle or.

whatever, things like that. Um, but as I. was telling you before, when when their. buddies change and they see that life. improve, >> sometimes it's it's a wakeup call for. them cuz you know that initially they. think there's nothing this black guy can. do that's going to help them. Who the. hell is he to think to even think, you. know, I'm the superior one, he's the. inferior one. Uh but when they compare. their life to their to their buddy's. life and now he's superior, he's he's. living superiorly and getting along.

fine. You know, I want that, >> right? >> So now they come around. >> and for some people it's it's it's a. something staggering, you know, like I. can think of I'm just thinking of a. couple of the cases that I've worked on. and like one guy his son committed. suicide and he had brought his whole. family into the movement and he felt. like it was the ideology that did that. and that's what helped shift him. And. this was a a lifelong guy. Like this. guy's in his 60s, you know, he'd been in. forever. I would have never, like Daryl. said, never, you never think some people. are going to change. And he changed. And. there's another family that uh I helped.

out this last year and they've got 11. kids under the age of 18. And they. started for them it was seeing how it. was affecting their children. A lot of. them, some of them have, you know, uh. disabilities and things like that. and. they were seeing how um the quality of. life, you know, being [snorts] involved. in this is it's it's heavy. It's it's. it's it's it's. a it's a great burden. It's not and it's. not something that you wish on your. children. It's not something that you uh. want them to move forward with. So, for. them, it was seeing how their children. were affected.

>> Well, having children also just changes. your understanding of people. You start. realizing like babies learn from their. environment and they're all, you know, really innocent. They come out of the. womb just innocent and you see them grow. up and evolve and you realize like how. much of what makes you a human being is. just learned learned behavior. >> Yep. >> Darl, you're still a a working musician. So, how much how much of your time.

>> is dedicated to helping people leave. these movements? It seems pretty. significant. >> Yeah, it's really flipped around a lot. You know, when I first started this, it. was like maybe 75% music, 25% uh other, you know, this work. But now it's. probably the exact opposite now. I I. just take the gigs that I want to do. You know, if it's something, you know, that I that I want I feel like playing, I'll take it. I've I've turned down more. gigs in the last few years than I than I. have accepted. And does this feel right.

to you or do you sometimes wish that. someone else would like carry the baton? >> Well, you know, I wish people would. carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I've done. Um I I'm just. one person. Um but and there's always. room for improvement. Somebody can, you. know, take my template and and make. amends to it or whatever. I would hope, you know, people would be inspired to do. that and there have been some. But I mean, would you rather have more.

time for your music? Like that's. >> Well, I'll put it this way. Music is my. profession, right? For sure. But. improving race relations is my. obsession. >> And I would much rather much rather be. on stage playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and. clapping their hands than going to a. clan rally and watching people in robes. and hoods march around a burning cross. yelling white power. I know [laughter]. >> you laugh, but that's what I do. >> I know. It's I mean it's it's crazy that.

you do that and have any feeling of. safety while you're there. Well, I mean, there are people who don't want. me there and they resent it and they get. into it with their leaders and their. leaders end up banishing them and stuff, but you know, Jeff can tell you, you. know, cuz he's been to a lot of clan. things as well as his own organization. It's run kind of like a paramilitary. All right? So, you have two kinds of. rallies. You have public rallies and you. have private rallies. So, a public rally.

is, you know, you want to have your clan. rally or your Nazi rally over here in in. in the park on Main Street. So you got. to go to city hall or wherever and and. apply for a permit, right? That's public. ride, public park. So anybody can come. You can come, I can come, whatever. Now, if there if there's potential for. violence or whatever, there's going to. be a barricade of police in between the. ralliers and the protesters, so they. can't meet each other, right? You can. yell and scream [clears throat] over the. police head, right? But if it's in some. rural place like he's talking about in.

rural Minnesota, um you know, anybody, everybody can go. though there's not a. whole lot of police presence. Uh it's. mostly white people and um but if it's a. private rally, you it's on private. property. One of the members might have. a farm and okay, you know, we can have. the rally on my farm. Well, you just. can't walk on somebody's farm if you. unless you're invited. So, you have to. be invited by one of the higherups. In. his case, the commander in the clan. case, the imperial wizard or the grand. dragon. And so if it's like a Simon says.

if if the leader invites somebody then. all the reme all the members have to. respect that you don't bother that. person whether you like it or not you. know otherwise you know you you'll. suffer some consequences. >> and why would those leaders invite you. >> curiosity uh I treated them fairly I. applied those five core values I'm. writing a book uh I need to know what. goes on at a rally you all say you know. you don't do anything uh malicious or. whatever. Well, show me, you know, let. me let me come see the rally. Like, if.

you're going to write a book on. football, you can you you can go to the. library and get tons of books and. research it and write it and have never. gone to a football game. Right. >> Right. Okay. But if you really want to, you know, write an accurate one and from. personal experience, you need to go see. a football game. >> So, how am I going to write a book on. the clan from A to Z without ever seeing. a clan rally? >> Right? So that's why I want to go and I. explained that to them and it's you know. say okay you know so I've been to both. private and uh and public. >> Who's easier to convert clan people or.

Nazi people? Um, I would say probably clan people. Um, they are. depending upon upon the individual. groups because I don't want to say that. a white supremacist of any group or even. individual races is stamped out of a. standard cookie cutter. You know, they. come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, uh, etc. But the uh. the the uh the the Nazi movements, not.

so much the skin heads. The skin heads. are very disorganized, disjointed. They. go off go off the rails. They don't. listen to anybody, you know, within. their own command or whatever. Where uh. the clan does have some respect for. their or a lot of respect for their. higherups, you know, the great titan, the grand dragon, the imperial wizard, etc. Uh but the the uh Nazi movements, a. lot of the larger ones like like his his. former movement, uh it's is very. militarily run and and there are quick.

consequences if you step out of line. >> So, you know, I don't I don't like Joe. Rogan on my on my rally ground, but my. Grand Dragon wants him here. I'm I'm. going to be cool. I'm not going to say a. word to him. I'm just going to stand. over there because I know if I you know, if he gets in my face, I might say. something and then I'm going to get. banished or whatever. So it's very much. run like a military in a lot of ways. >> Yes. >> Did you guys train? Did you have like. training exercises and different things. that you did? >> Yeah, later on in in the group there was. uh paramilitary training. There was a.

rank structure. So people you know like. the military and and uh it was very very. controlled in that sense. So. >> when you say paramilitary training, what. were you preparing for. >> in in these movements? They believe that. the United States government is going to. collapse whether that's through a race. war or civil war or anything like that. Um and this goes far right, far left. All most extremist groups have this um. or even you know the jihadi type uh. religious extremism. They have this idea. that they're going to rise up and be the.

the leaders of the future tomorrow. So. um so groups like this prepare, you. know, so they do like you know what you. call like militia training, I guess. >> Geez. So now, interestingly enough, right, he mentioned the word militia. Okay, so when you have. very subtle nuance here, when you have a. bunch of white guys who go out in the. woods and practice shooting and they're. in their camouflage and practice. survival skills and all that kind of.

stuff, um, they're called militias. But. when you have black guys, black groups. that do the same thing, they're not. called militias, they're called. militants. But it's the same thing. But. the word militant has more of a of a. negative connotation than uh than the. word militia. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Who's using these terms? Like by by whose standard? >> By the general public standard, especially, you know, white people we. use those terms. They will refer to to. blacks as being militants.

>> Well, you very rarely hear about when. you hear about militias, it it's usually. kooky white people. It's usually like. white people in Idaho or you know some. groups outside of Celane and. >> right in the area nations. >> Yeah. The the people in Washington where. his state they have a lot of militias in. in Michigan. >> Uh Timothy McVey, you know, was part of. a of a uh militia, you know, and there. are other ones and and and they have. different names to to to cover up like.

he used Jeff Stevens to cover, you know, the the thing like uh there was a a clan. group out of Texas. It was the um what. was it? Something [snorts]. uh uh ambulance service, you know, so. you just a you know a a store window. name to cover up the real uh. organization. Um but speak to to the. recruitment today. I mean the these. groups have always, you know, since the. beginning of time or or the beginning of. their inception have always recruited um.

law enforcement and military people into. the ranks of the group. Uh but now it's. even more concentrated where they really. are going after a lot of law enforcement. and military especially those people. veterans uh who've only been in the in. the military air force, army, marines, navy, whatever uh for two years. Uh they. feel that if somebody is in there for. more than two years, they've become. loyal to the government. So you really. can't it's harder to pull them. Um, and.

then at at the two-year point, these. people have training. They have training. in weaponry and bomb making, explosives, and survival skills, all that kind of. stuff, which is what these people want. to prepare them. So the, you know, you. know, you all served overseas and and. fought for the country over there. Now, why don't you come fight for our country. right here? You know, because this is. going on in our cities. You know, look. what's happening in Washington DC and. Chicago. the Jews and the blacks are.

taking over and da da da da come fight. for us here on you know domestically and. so they get lured in and then they learn. these these weapon skills cuz you know. and then they turn into lone wolves uh. that's why we're seeing so many lone. wolves but what's what's actually going. on here Joe is this I learned this back. in 1982. all right [clears throat] let me let me. go back a little further than 1982 um. 1974 I'm age 15 in the 10th grade.

sophomore in high school and we had a. class called the POTC which stood for. problems of the 20th century had a great. teacher uh it was it was a class for. seniors 12th graders but I was taken as. a 10th grader he'd bring in different. controversial speakers talk about. different abortion you know all kinds of. controversial things back then and uh. one day he brought in the head of the. American Nazi party All right. Now, as.

Jeff pointed out, the the Nazi party was. founded by a fellow named George Lincoln. Rockwell. And by the way, one of. Rockwell's daughters who long ago. disowned her father uh was a teacher at. my school, but she had, you know, a lot. of people didn't know that. But anyway, um George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered. by one of his own Nazis, guy named John. Palter. He got into it was founded about. 35 minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia. And um John Palter shot and. killed Rockwell out there on the street. on Wilson Boulevard. So Rockwell's.

right-hand guy was a guy named Matt. Cole, Ko Ehl. And on this day in 1974, Matt Cole and his right-hand guy, uh. they're the heads of the American Nazi. party now after Rockwell came to my. school, to my class, and they spoke to. my class. Now, you could never do this. do that today, you know, but I'm glad we. were able to do that back in 1974, you. know. I I I wish that kind of thing. would happen today so people can see. what's, you know, freedom of speech and.

all that. >> Matt Cole pointed at me and pointed at. another black kid in my class and said, "We're going to ship you back to. Africa." And then he went like this and. all you Jews out there, you're going. back to Israel. Now, I'm 15 years old. I. just sat there like looking at the guy. like, "What on earth, you know, is this. man talking about?" I I didn't say. anything to him, but uh one of my. classmates was a girl piped up and said, "Well, they live here. You know what? they don't want to go. And M. Cole said, "Oh, they have no choice. If they do not. leave voluntarily, they will be.

exterminated in the upcoming race war.". That was the first time I ever heard the. term race war. Now, I was already. fascinated by racism since I was 10. years old, right? But race war, what is. this man talking about? Right? And so, I. began buying books and all kinds of. stuff, learning different terminology. for it, which will come later. uh like. for example the white supremacists they. have two terms for the race war. One is. rahoa r a h o wa rahoa which are the. first two letters of three words racial.

holy war also uh they they call it the. bugaloo. So if you hear that term. they're not talking about the 1960s you. know dance music we're talking about the. race war and so the Matt Cole talked. about the race war. Well, um, I graduated two years later, 1976, from high school. I graduated from. college in 1980, four years after that. And like I said, racism became my. obsession. I did not confront Matt Cole.

in school because, you know, my peer. group back then, you know, we're raised, you have respect for your elders as. figures of authority. Whether you accept. them or not, you still respect them. And. so, you know, I didn't confront him like. that. But now I've graduated from. college, right? And I graduate 1980 at. at age 22. In 1982, I'm age 24. I had developed contacts with different. people. I knew where some of these. groups were, etc. I found out about.

[snorts] a demonstration, an. unpublicized demonstration by the. American Nazi party that was going to. take place in front of the White House. There is a park right across the street. from the White House called Lafayette. Park. 24/7, 365 days a year, there is. somebody in that park protesting. something. Nuclear weapons, the. environment, abortion, you name it, they're there all the time. And they. face the White House with their. billboards and whatever. So, I found out. the American Nazi party was going to.

have a silent, unpublicized. demonstration, which means nobody knows. about it, not even the police, right? So, uh, I'm going to go down there and. see them. Now, back then, you could. drive up and down the 1600 block of. Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the. White House sits. And I only live like, you know, about 30, 40 minutes from. there, you know, 15 minutes from DC on a. non-rush hour day. So, I I go down there. early. They're going to be there at. 12:00 noon. I park my car caddy corner. to the White House. I wait. Here comes.

this van. About 13 to 15 of these Nazis. get out, right? And who do I see? Matt. Cole and Martin Kerr. The same two guys. from eight years ago who came to my. school. You never forget the faith. I. mean, I can look at my hand right now. and see his face right there. >> You know, you never forget the face of. somebody who tells you they're going to. ship you somewhere, right? >> Hey, whether you want to go or not, and. if you don't go exterminate if you don't. go voluntarily, right? So, u anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up.

They're not wearing anything that. indicates they're Nazis. They're wearing. just dark black suits and they're. standing there like this facing the. White House across the street like this. People are It's lunchtime in DC. People. are walking by not even knowing who they. are. I know who they are, right? I guess. maybe the White House might have known. who they were. So anyway, uh once he got. them all lined up, I walked right over. to Matt Cole and I said, "Matt Cole?" He. like jumped like who was this black. person calling my name, you know? And he. says, "Do I know you?" And I said,

"Well, uh you spoke at my high school.". And what high school would that be? I. said, ' Wooten High School in Rockville, Maryland. And he goes, "Yes, yes, yes, I. remember you. That was a long time ago.". And I said, "Yes." Yeah. He remembered. me. Yeah. And he and he said, "Yes, that. was a long time ago." I I said, "Yes, that was eight years ago." He goes, "Yes, yes, I remember. What can I do for. you?" I said, "Well, I'm still here." He. says, "I can see that. How can I help. you?" I said, 'Well, you can you can.

tell [clears throat] me just who the. hell gives you the authority to make. permanent travel arrangements for me. And he says, 'What's your name? I said, 'Dlar Davis. And then he did something. I've never forgotten. He shook my hand. and he held my hand real tight and he. shook his f with his other hand, shook. his finger in my face and he said, "Mr. Davis, you have to understand one thing. It is in the interest of your race, the. black race, to be a strong race. And you. cannot be a strong race unless you are a. pure race. And you cannot be a pure race. if you are misgenating with other races.

It is in the interest of my race, the. Aryan race, which is what he calls white. race, right? To also be a pure race. And. we cannot be to be a strong race. And we. cannot be a strong race if we are. misgenating with mongrel I mean with a. mud races such as yours. We are becoming. a mongrel race. So anybody who's. non-white is a mud race. And he's he's. fearing that his race is is uh is dying. out, becoming a mongrel race. by mixing. with other races. So he says until the. races understand that they cannot.

misogenate, we cannot live side by side. We cannot live together. >> And and what do you hear there? Fear. >> Yeah. Fear. >> So. he um you know I talked to him for about. you know maybe 20 30 minutes. I wasn't. there to beat him up or cuss him out. I. just wanted to understand where he's. coming from. Right. And so a few months. later uh they applied for a permit. they. had their national uh um American Nazi. party recruitment rally in Washington. DC. So people came from all over the.

country, right? And now this time it was. publicized. So you had, you know, you. had about 50 of them show up and there. were tens of thousands of people that. came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore, all over. So you. had every police department was there to. and there was rioting, all kinds of. craziness going on, right? Uh you could. not get to I went to there with my. secretary. You could not get to the uh. to to the Nazi. I saw Matt Cole and them. and now of course they're wearing their.

Gustapo uniforms with the SS insignas. flying swastika flags and all that kind. of thing and uh you but you couldn't get. to them because if the police have their. shields and their batons and pushing. people back, right? So then people they. came with uh bricks and all kinds of. stuff and began throwing them over the. heads of the police to land on the Nazis. gathered in this opening in the park. And so the cops began tear gasing. everybody and then it became a. full-blown riot. People were turning. over police cars, breaking out the.

windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington. DC. You can you can find it on on. YouTube. And so anyway that uh this is. before internet, right? 1980s. Um, my secretary and I go home, we watch the. news and there's Matt Cole sitting in. the studio of one of the the network TV. stations, uh, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it. was, and he's talking to the anchor. person, and they're showing footage of. the riot in DC that day. You see, you.

see, it's the blacks and the Jews who. are turning over the police cars and. attack and trying to attack us. You. don't see the Nazis turning over the. police cars. It was then that I realized. what he was doing because he he was a. pretty smart guy, just smart in the. wrong direction. Um, I couldn't figure. out why would he have his national. recruitment rally to to recruit people. into the Nazi party in Washington DC. Washington DC is twothirds black. There. are no black people in DC who want to. join the American Nazi party. There are.

no Jews in Washington DC or Jews. anywhere who want to join the the. American Nazi party. So why DC? Because. he knew that would happen. >> And he has the official footage from. CBS, ABC, NBC. He takes that footage, goes out there to Cordelane, Iowa, uh, Idaho, or Washington State, the Pacific. Northwest, and says, "You see what's. going on in our nation's capital? Our. country is being run by Zog." Zog is is.

a is a very common term in white. supremacy. ZG. It stands for Zionist. occupied government. >> Oh boy. >> Yeah. And so he shows this, you know, writing, you know, of all these people. who he alleges are blacks and Jews. destroying and and denying people their. right of uh freedom of assembly, freedom. of speech. So then it it's a recruitment. tool. So I learned that and I I I. realized what he was doing. And I've. seen the clan do the same thing. They. will go somewhere where they know. there's going to be some kind of a riot.

That's why they went to march in Skoi, Illinois, which was an all Jewish, you. know, neighborhood because they knew it. was going to create a disturbance. >> and they used that. >> But, uh, so I learned a lot from Matt. Cole. >> Bizarre that someone would be smart in. the wrong way like that. >> It's bizarre. >> It's bizarre, but you find it in any. color, every color, you know, people, you know, divide and conquer is how you. gain power. And the first thing and. going back to the fear factor of that, like we did the exact same thing. Every.

time there was violence, when we clash. with Antifa or something like that, we. had people out there filming like NSM. had its own media arm. So they're out. there filming that and we would put out. those clips. So immediately, especially. if there was violence, if there was. actual clashes and the police weren't. keeping people separated, those always. turned into recruits. That's how these. groups would would utilize that stuff. So you'd have people that were being. like, "Oh man, I sorry I missed it. that. I didn't know we'd be fighting with the. Reds, you know, like um I'll be at the.

next one. And then you'd have. applications coming in from new recruits. that would see it on the news. So with. the these groups were always. manipulating the media. Um some of the. rallies that I organized were at places. like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those. those elements and it would guarantee. the press or downtown LA at the at the. city hall or Marching on DC. Um places. that would guarantee a lot of press. And. just like Daryl said, it wasn't. necessarily to recruit people in those. areas. It was to whip up uh um chaos.

because that would benefit these groups. >> Well, how do how do these groups use the. media or rather uh social media and the. internet to radicalize people? Nowadays, it's a it's a it's a double-edged sword, the media, because these groups before, like um like I was discussing earlier, you had to like kind of search them out. or or a recruiter had to find you or. something like that. It wasn't easy to. find. Now, >> a fourth grader can click on a website.

and go find these groups. They're. they're easy to find online. And um so. sometimes they're very overt, but a lot. of times there's different censorship. things that are in place. Um so they'll. change the cover of the book. So the. propagandists that we had in the in the. group were making stuff look less. innocuous, not you know using swastikas. or things like that. So some groups are. very uh prolific at that and they'll use. podcasts, they'll use videos. Um. >> do they have Nazi podcasts? >> Oh yeah, >> I would say like.

>> don't get any ideas, man. >> They they don't get [laughter]. they don't get as many as many listeners. as Joe Rogan. But I was I was just. saying thinking like. what what kind of how many people are. listening to Nazi podcasts? >> That really varies, you know, but that's. >> it is still a large movement in this. country. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And how does it grow now? Does it grow. based on like the things Daryl was. talking about like riots and stuff like. that where they'll use that maybe Black.

Lives Matter riots from the 2000s or or. 2020s rather? Well, one of the things. that's causing it to grow also, which I. was going to lead leading up to when I. talked with Matt Cole, what I learned in. 1982 was that these people, meaning the. the the movement, the white supremacy. movement, >> are fearing, he told me this in 1982, they are fearing the year 2042. All right? And it's not a conspiracy. It's for real. All right? The US census.

is taken every decade. I'm 67. When I was, it doesn't matter. how old you are, how old he is, or. whatever, when we all were children, the. black population in this country was. 12%. Uh, Native Americans 1%, right? Uh, Latino, Hispanic Americans almost 2%. Um, AsianAmericans, uh, as uh, Pacific Islander Americans. almost 3%. Whites were like around 86, 87%. This.

back in I was born in 58. All right. So. every decade this is happening and this. is what Matt Cole was telling me that. they were fearing. He he used the word. fear. He said it has to be stopped. He. said uh in the year 2042 if this trend. continues um this country will be 50/50. meaning 50% white 50% non-white. All. right. The last census taken in our. country was 2020. Guess what? whites.

went from like 80 some percent from the. time I was a kid and you were a kid. Now. uh 59% that was in 2020. It's less than. that right now in 2025. So in 20 404. it's going to be this. It's predicted uh. between 2045 and 2050 it's going to. flip. And for the first time in the. history of the United States, whites. will become the minority. And while. there are plenty of white people who. say, "Hey, that doesn't bother me. No. big deal. It's evolution. What's what's. the big deal?" Right? there is a slice. of our population um the ones that I.

deal with who think it is a big deal and. they're trying to stop it and that's why. when I first start I've been doing that. like I said for 45 years when I first. started doing this there was just the. KKK white power skin heads and some. neo-Nazi groups that was basically it. right today you got the KKK the. neo-Nazis the skin heads the Patriot. Front Vanguard the uh Proud Boys the. Oathkeepers the National Alliance on and. on and on whole slew of groups and. they're all saying come join us. Come.

and join us. We're going to take back. our country. Right. So people out of. fear of their identity being erased as. as um you know they're saying because. they're trying to keep the races pure. because what they tell me is Daryl, I. don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America or. white genocide through misgenation. So. these people out of fear of their. identity being erased because they truly. believe that they are patriots and it's. their job to save this country. We built.

this country. We wrote the Constitution. and now people are coming into our. country who don't look like us and. squeezing us out of our own country. That's the mentality. And as Jeff points. out, they're surrounded by an echo. chamber that keeps repeating that. So. then it becomes the truth to them, right? So they run and join these groups. >> to to take back the country. But when. the group does not act fast enough to. take back the country, they get antsy. and get frustrated and say, "You know. what? If the Nazis can't do it or the. clan can't do, I'll do it myself." And. they walk into a black church in South.

Carolina. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And. murder nine black people doing Bible. study. Or the Tree of Life Synagogue in. Pittsburgh, kill off 11 Jewish people. Uh the Buffalo grocery store in New. York, the uh Seek uh Indian Temple in. Oak Creek, Wisconsin, murders seven uh. seek Indians doing religious service. the uh Walmart in El Paso, Texas. 23 uh. Mexican people were murdered by white. supremacists a few years ago. These. these these people are called lone. wolves. And every time one of them gets. taken out by law enforcement or gets.

arrested and their property gets. searched, law enforcement always finds a. cache of automatic weapons that are. being stockpiled for Rajoa or the. Bugaloo because they they're looking to. have this this re redo of the Civil War. to to preserve their lifestyle. And so 2042 is going to be a pivotal. year. And we're only what 16 17 years. away from that right now. >> Wow. So that's why they walked down the.

street chanting they will not replace. us. That's what that's all about. >> Yep. >> Yeah. This is white replacement theory, right? >> Which is bogus. Nobody's trying to. replace anybody. >> Just you guys aren't [ __ ] enough. [laughter]. >> It's so simple. You're already the. majority. Just you you need to do your. work. [laughter]. It is um. >> just not my sister. Right. >> Right. It's just such a disturbing. aspect of society that you would think.

there's going to come a point in time. where there's enough education, enough. understanding, and especially with the. access to information we have with the. internet and this would all go away. But. it doesn't seem like that's helping. because it seems like the more access to. information, the more people settle into. these echo chambers. >> that and also a lot of the old guard. realize, you know, this is happening. And if we want to preserve our our.

culture, our whatever, we need to pass. this on to young people. We need to get. more young people involved. And they. began recruiting young people to to. disseminate this information and and and. and you know galvanize. >> uh you know more of their peers into. into this uh ideology and and back to. you know the uh the recruitment of of. military and and and law enforcement. because they know this is going to. happen and they and they want they're. going to want those people on board to.

to be on that side. And you know, I. mean, you you can probably talk about. military and law enforcement inside your. organization. I can talk about in the. clan or, you know, whatever. >> Yeah. As far as like the military was. concerned, we were actively trying to. recruit military. So early on in the. organization, it was like 10% maybe of. the members. By the time I left, it was. about 50% there. >> And how did you do that? Well, we we on. their applications, you know, we were. asking what branch they were in, what. rank they achieved because we were.

looking at all that for uh potential. leadership. So, anybody that had. military experience, especially in the. higher ranks, th those people would be. uh naturally uh looked at for leadership. positions in the party because they had. those. >> Right. But how do they try to recruit. military people? So using the same. tactics as everybody else, but the um as. far as the organization specifically. having that military structure like we. discussed earlier, having that structure. gave them so somebody that was coming.

out of the military that was retired or. something like that, it would provide. that structure that they were missing. So a lot of times for people that are. involved in this stuff, it's a psych. it's fulfilling a psychological need. It's being part of a mission. is having. that uh something that's driving them. and driving their for uh driving a. driving force that's uh behind their uh. ideology. So finding a place to fit in. having having a mission, a sense of. purpose. Um I think it's a lot of things. that a lot of times people miss that. aspect of it and I explain it not to. excuse it because there is no excuse for.

it. these are choices that people make, but if you understand the psychology of. it, like why someone's involved in it, um that's helpful to help pull them out. and and um also when someone's coming. out of these organizations to have a new. mission, have something else. So, for a. lot of people that might be learning to. play guitar or uh doing an extreme sport. or getting involved with the church or. just it could be anything, but it has. there has to be something because if. they're missing that, that's when they. really struggle. That's that's one thing.

I've seen a lot of. >> So what what is the protocol like? How. do you handle like say if someone is. leaving and they contact you and say I. know you left I I want to leave too. What what are the steps you take to make. sure that they do find some sort of a. new purpose? A lot of times just kind of. asking them questions, you know, asking. a lot of questions and seeing what. they're interested in and f and finding. those things, trying to help them find. that uh sense of purpose and and that um. because uh that's missing. So, I've had. a lot of people say like um when they've.

left they're like, I don't have that. I. don't have that. So, we a lot of times. we'll talk through that. Well, what. interests you? What do you what are you. interested in? And a lot of times we try. to keep them kind of steer clear. politics, >> but for some people it might be okay. But typically that's that's kind of uh. probably one they should stay away from. for a little bit. >> So, politics because there's they they. have this desire to help fix society. So, they think they're going to get. involved. I'm not a Nazi anymore, so. I'll get involved in fixing it in a more. legitimate way. >> Yep. >> And one of the problems, Joe, is this.

When these people leave the movement, there is a moniker. that's tagged on them and a stigma that. follows. Okay? You know, when when you. see their name in the media, it's never. uh, you know, uh, Jeff Scoop, blah blah. blah. It's always former neo-Nazi Jeff. Scoop or former rock musician. you know, [laughter]. has some wacky ideas, but let's not talk. about that.

>> So, that stigma kind of follows, you. know, and it's hard for them to break, >> right? >> You know, where whereby most people, you. know, when they screw up or whatever, you know, it's forgiven like say, you. know, you and I are friends, I call you. and say, "Hey, Joe, man, you're not. going to believe this last weekend. I. got I got uh thrown in jail for for for. for DWI.". you know, you'd be like, "Well, man, you. know, you need to quit drinking and. driving. You know, why didn't you call. me?" I would have come picked you up. You don't have to drive home, whatever. Um, and and you and I would still be. friends. But, but if I call you and say,

"Hey, man. You know, I got arrested for. for murder or for rape." You'd be like, "Why are you calling me?" You know, right? >> Distancing. So even though these people. might have been friends with somebody. who later became a white supremacist or. whatever, uh the stigma of it even now. that they're out, >> right? >> You know, they still are a little leery. and want to stay clear because you're. judged by the company you keep. So it's. always, you know, Xcon, you know, blah. blah blah, you know, instead of just. saying so and so is working here. >> Yeah. But I mean, there's very few.

people that even want to believe that. someone's capable of. >> Right. Exactly. the tiger stripes and. leopard. >> They would always think like this guy's. got to be [ __ ] up. He's he was a Nazi. >> Yeah. And and it's it's crazy because I. had a reporter one time and I won't say. who or anything like that, but he had. said, you know, I visit a murderer in in. prison and and I'm okay with that, but. I'm not so sure about like your journey. Like I I mean like he basically what he. was saying in so many words was he was. more comfortable with the murderer than.

somebody and this is this is a a a. reporter you know somebody a journalist. and they were more uncomfortable. speaking with a former neo-Nazi. >> That's fascinating. >> Yeah. Were they Jewish? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Definitely liberal. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> For sure. I think the the stigma of it. is just so unforgivable, you know, which is part of the problem. So, >> but then why why if you're not going to. forgive that person.

>> or that ideology, right? Then why do you. want to fight it? Why do you want to. combat it? Why not just accept it. because it's not going to change or at. least you're not going to change your. attitude towards. >> Right. You have to help in if if you. want these people to leave and. reintegrate into society, you have to. have forgiveness. >> Exactly. I mean, you know, prison is a. is a penal um institution, not a reform. institution, which is why this country. has the highest recidivism rate of any. country in the world, right? People, you.

know, go in there and they don't get. reformed and they they learn from better. people than they were at their crime and. they go back out and they do it again. and people don't accept them because. they have that stigma that follows them. Well, I I can't hire an excon, you know, blah blah blah, whatever. >> Right? >> Where do they go? >> Right? That's what you said. >> An interesting uh side note on that. [clears throat] You know, we talk about. um like some of the the hate that I had. and I was a raging anti-semite, more. than a racist by at all by all points. And the irony of today working with the.

Simon Whisinthal Center. I mean, there's. just so much irony there. And like the. Jewish community was the community that. I dehumanized and villainized the most. and Joe, they have been the most. accepting and welcoming um as far as. since the change has happened. And that. just blew my mind cuz I I the first time. I went to speak at a synagogue, I. thought, man, these people are going to. want to stone me to death. You know, like I what should I say? How am I going. to you know, how is what is this going.

to be like? I'd never been in a. synagogue before. And this was this took. place in Skoi, Illinois. And um I tell. you after after speaking there I got. more hugs and more love and compassion. than I'd probably any other place I. could ever remember being. >> That's really interesting. So did they. try to understand like why you at one. point in time hated Jews? Did they did. they ask you questions like what what. did you think? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, they have. something called tshoua, which means. like forgiveness or or repentance and um.

um and tquinolum means to he to heal the. world. So, these were things that were. counterintuitive and and contrary to. everything that I thought I knew about. the. >> Now, Jeff is speaking Hebrew, you. understand, >> right? [laughter]. Yeah. So, um but it was it was really. bizarre. So it's like when I speak with. uh kids at schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys remember in. elementary school and you had opposite. day and your shirts backwards and all. that kind of stuff. I said that was my. life. Like everything that I thought.

that I knew about the Jews and the. movement, I was an expert on the Jews, the Jewish question, you know. And here, >> did you have any experience with Jewish. people? >> No. >> None. >> No. >> So this was all just based on Nazi. ideology? >> Nuh-uh. So you know no negative or positive. interactions with Jewish people? >> No very towards the end of my time when. I was involved you know I had a few. interactions with uh Jewish people but. uh be that I knew of but before that um. no absolutely not just wouldn't discuss.

anything with them. Wouldn't talk to. them and and just felt like they were. inherently evil. Um swallowed the whole. anti-semitic uh uh pill I guess you. could say. I mean um I believed all of. it and um they they were the people that. I dehumanized the most and yet today. they are the people that have been the. most open. >> and you know for the longest time you. know Jews have been blamed for. everything things you know they had. nothing to do with um they say you know.

that Jews run the media they own the. media they you know they they they they. run the banking systems and all that. kind of stuff and so people began. believing belieing in that and that and. they become you know persona nangrada. and even though they may not may not. even know any Jewish people and that's. why I say you know when when I feel I. can trust you know some individual who. trusts me or whatever around my friends. I will I will invite them over or. whatever and I bring in some Jewish. friends of mine and other black friends.

or white friends so that they can see. something outside the echo chamber. Uh, another former neo-Nazi who's a very. good friend of mine uh was telling me. that when he was in. >> a. >> funny sentence, [laughter] another. [ __ ] right? >> Former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend. of mine. >> A Freudian slip. >> No, just it's accurate. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So, uh, anyway, he was telling me when. he was in the movement, uh, he he's he's. from Wisconsin and you know their their. football team is the Green Bay Packers.

and they're just, you know, crazy about. their football team. And so he would. tell me, you know, that they're not. allowed to watch football games because. there's inter interracial, you know, you. got black and and white members on the. teams playing together. So that's. forbidden. And so he'd have to sneak. around and watch turn the volume down. and and watch the game because he loved. the Packers, right? And when the Packers. would would score a goal, he'd do like. this, [laughter]. right? And [clears throat] so then he. tells me that um you know when he got.

out and uh and other people were you. know were getting out turns out they. were doing the same thing you know you. know watching the game. >> So crazy. >> But he has a great story. Uh tell them. about about the guys from Cameroon. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So I had met some uh. embassy people from the country of. Cameroon in Africa and um they had come. out to one of my talks and and. afterwards um you know they said you. know it was really fascinating and and. America is really far behind on race.

relations. You know when we first got. here we didn't realize we were black and. I was like [laughter]. >> what are you guys talking about? I said. we got to talk. I got to understand. this. What do you mean you didn't. realize you were black? And he's like, "Well, of course we realize we're black, but you see in the United States, you. know, or where we're from in Cameroon, we're Cameroonian, >> you know, that's who we are." Like, you. know, we know we're black, but he goes, "You in the United States, it's. different. >> You're black American, white American, you know.". >> Yeah. He says, "We're treated. differently in the United States, even.

by other black people, you know, we were. treated differently." So, he says, "Now. we know we're black." [laughter]. >> Wow. >> I took a minute to wrap my mind around. that one. Well, it makes sense. They think of. themselves as Cameroonian. >> As they should. >> Yeah. As they should. Yeah. >> Yep. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That's what's crazy. When you. experience racism from other black. people, you're like, "Whoa.". >> Right. >> Well, now hold on now. >> Or discrimination, I should say. >> Well, when you when you experience it. from anybody, right? >> But, uh, understand something. Okay. So,

you know, we have a unique thing here, uh, called slavery and and Jewish people. have a unique thing called the. Holocaust. So, [clears throat and cough]. if you're a white guy and you're walking. down the street uh sidewalk and some. other white guy is coming up the. sidewalk, you don't know him, just a. stranger, you know. Um you guys are. going to pass and not say a thing to to. either one of them, you know, just just. go on by, right?

>> If it's a black guy, um two black guys. passing, they don't they're going, "Yo, man, what's up?" They're going to. acknowledge one another because they. have a shared experience. They both are. descendants of slaves. They both have. experienced racism at some point in. their life or whatever. If if two Jews. pass who don't know each other, they're. going to go shalom. >> because of that commonality, that. experience. Okay? So unless you've had. that experience, you don't um. >> you don't react to it. All right? So. when uh I lived in Africa on the.

continent of Africa for 10 years, I. lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and. Sagal and visited many other countries. in between because of my dad's job. Right? So, I can tell you, you know, all. black people don't look alike. All black. people don't know each other. All right. And [laughter]. >> that's a funny thing to say, too. >> But you But yeah, but you know what? A. lot of white people think that they do. >> a lot. >> Yeah. Especially older older ones. Yeah. Okay. >> Now, at one time in in a city, all black.

people probably did know each other. Okay. because they had to go to the same. school and there's only one black school. in the town, right? They couldn't go to. different white schools. Okay? So, yeah, you know, you could they could only shop. in a certain store. They couldn't shop. in every store or restaurant. So, yeah, they would run into each other more. often. But today, you know, no, but the. stigma is still there, okay? The. sentiment, especially with older people. Mhm. >> So anyway, um if I'm walking down the. street and I've had this happen, um and. some black guy from Africa is coming up.

the street, I go, "Hey man, what's up?". You know, I don't know the guy. He looks. at me like kind of strange like, "Why? I. don't know you. Why you talking to me?". Because he doesn't have that experience. >> Right. Right. >> So we're not, you know, we're not we're. not monolithic. >> Right. Yeah. [snorts] Well, that this is. the only way these movements like the. neo-Nazis work is if you don't know a. lot of people from all over the world. and realize we're all just people. >> Yep. >> This is, you know, it's and it is very.

fear-based, right? >> Yeah. >> Because I mean, think about it. You're. you're clinging to the lowest common. denominator. You all have a certain. amount of melanin in your skin and. you're all from a certain part of the. world. That's it. And it's really not a. very good commonality to be bound. It's. terrible. Yeah. >> Especially when you think about the. differences in personalities and tastes. and just how people behave. And it's not. a good indicator at all. It's the. dumbest. >> It really It really is. >> But it has no bearing on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing.

on any of the things that we find. fascinating and attractive about people. It's just the color of your skin, which. is the dumbest [ __ ] thing on earth. >> Absolutely. And you know um and and we. all may engage in it somewhat. Like for. example, if um I like Chinese food. and if I go to a Chinese restaurant, I don't want to see a bunch of white. college kids or black college kids for. that matter in the kitchen cooking it.

for me, >> right? >> You know, I want the authentic real. deal, >> right? >> You know, so am I being prejudice? >> No, that's not prejudice. That's you. want to experience the culture. Yeah. Like if I go to an Italian restaurant, >> I'm assuming there's going to be a bunch. of old school Italian people back there. cooking, >> you know? I want I want. >> I want heavy accents, you know? [laughter]. I want the smell of garlic in the air. You know what I'm saying? >> Do you know where Italians came from. >> originally? >> Yeah. >> I mean, I'm assuming Italy.

>> Well, that's where [laughter] they live. >> I mean, what are you trying to say? >> Well, I I'll tell you. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, Italians came from Africa. They came from the Moors. >> Oh, yes. Well, Sicily in particular. That's actually where my family's from. >> Okay. Well, there you go. Okay. And. they're darker in Sicily. >> than in Rome and Venice and wherever. else, right? So, the further you move. from the equator, the the darker the. skin, right? >> Okay. Yeah. The Morris came, you know, and into there. Uh well, we all evolved. from Africa at some point in time way.

back when, right? But you know a lot of. people don't realize that you know and. they really need to check their DNA and. check their history rather than just. take it from where they started where. they were born you know that's why I. think it's so important to not ban books. and b and rewrite history. >> of course yeah of course you know there. is some uh indication that human beings. uh might have come out of Asia as well. in fact one of the oldest known uh human. skeletons that they found which predates.

eats. >> Lucy. >> No, it's another one that Lucy. >> Well, Lucy is out of Ethiopia, >> right? But Lucy wasn't a homo sapien. They found something that is a homo. sapien that's 500,000 years older than. when they thought homo sapiens existed. This is very recent. >> And so it was likely that this was. taking place in multiple areas of the. world. Just like there's different. animals in multiple places of the world, there's different primates in multiple. places of the world. And there's a bunch.

of different kinds of human being, of. course, right? There's Dennisovvens. which have just recently discovered and. then there was the the hobbit people on. the island of Flores. Like there's a lot. of when it comes to the the evolutionary. history of human beings is very very. odd. But when you talk about like the. cultural history of human beings, that's. when things get really crazy because it. was just a lot of people like traveling. all over the place and just settling. into the climate. And the reason why. white people are white is just because.

there is no sun. It's that simple. And. they had to develop essentially like uh. a giant solar panel to suck up vitamin D. because they weren't getting any vitamin. D from the sun. It's really that simple. And that's when it gets real weird, >> which has nothing to do with their. intelligence or lack thereof. >> Zero. Zero. You know, it it's all. environmental. And over the course of. hundreds of thousands of years, people. changed their appearance. And you know, when you tell people that, they're like, "Wait, what?" [laughter].

>> Yeah, we we all came from the same. source. We're all That's why we could. all have babies, >> you know, like other animals that are. very different. Like there's certain. fish, they can have babies with other. fish, but those those fish become. infertile, you know, and then like the. same with like donkeys. Like donkeys, they don't they can't have babies, you. know, like it's a or mules rather can't. have babies because it's a cross between. a donkey and a horse. And you can do it,

but then it can't make babies or a liger. can't make babies. >> Right. >> Right. >> But people can make babies with people. obviously because we're the same [ __ ]. thing. >> Any any any uh uh culture of people. >> Yes. Yes. Any culture of people can have. babies with other cultures of people. because we all come from the same. source. kind of wipes out the whole. racism argument. >> That's stupid. It's the stupidest. [ __ ] thing ever because it's adaptive. to environment. >> Your DNA, my DNA, his DNA are 99.9% the. same. >> Y yeah. >> And that should be taught in elementary.

school. Don't wait to to teach it in. college when people's minds are already. solidified. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that thing too, that exposure that you had to that Nazi. coming to visit you, even though it's. negative exposure, it's probably good to. see. You know, like when I was a kid, I. was in high school when I was 14. Barney. Frank, who. >> Oh, yeah. I remember him. >> Yeah. He He wasn't openly gay then, but. he was like one of the first openly gay. members of Congress. >> He lived near me. >> He lived near me as well. I lived in. Massachusetts at the time. And he was.

from Massachusetts or was representative. of Massachusetts. >> when he lived in DC as a congressman. Oh, >> okay. So, this was before that, I guess, then. Um, so he was uh debating a member. of what at the time was the I believe it. was the moral majority. >> and it was this really goofy guy who. came out and he had like a American flag. on his lapel and I remember I was 14 and. you know when you're 14 and you see. someone who's got this very like he was. very anti-gay marriage, very anti- a lot.

of things but he was a clumsy. uh. wasn't very eloquent, not a very. compelling speaker and then Barney Frank. went up, you know, so they both spoke. spoke. This guy spoke and then Barney. Frank and Barney Frank was so much. smoother, so much more articulate. It. was like and for every all the kids that. I was in school with who left, they're. like, "That guy made more sense." Like, this is a good thing to say. It's good. to see someone with a very. narrow-minded, bigoted perspective and.

then someone who is more intelligent, more has much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate. information and to dissect the bad. arguments of the other person. So, we. all walked out of there with like, "Oh, okay." And then, you know, I remember. talking about it with my friends like, "Yeah, that guy's a [ __ ] moron." that. first guy, [laughter] you know, like and. but nowadays. instead of that, you would only get one.

You would only get the one person. talking. But the one person talking. without the other person talking is not. as good. And this idea of protecting. kids from bad ideas because they don't. want these kids to be indoctrinated by. bad ideas. It doesn't work with human. beings. The way to get rid of bad ideas. is to confront them with better ideas. >> Exactly. And the fear of having these. kind of debates in schools is really. dangerous. It's dangerous for discourse. It's dangerous for the development of. the ability to have arguments and ideas.

and to be able to debate. You you have. to see it done. You have to see bad. thinking, good thinking. Ah, I get it. I. get it. This guy's he's more he's more. clever. He's thinking better. He's got. more information. This makes sense. And. if you don't allow people to make those. distinctions on their own, if you just. baby them and treat them like you can't. expose them to these negative ideas, you. you miss out on the possibility of. accepting nuance and an understanding of.

how a less sophisticated, less educated. person can fall into these traps of. these stupid ideologies. >> You just nailed it right, you know, right on the head, man. allowing them to see the difference. Yes. Okay. Because. >> you know people. How did you change those people, Darl? No, I didn't change them. They changed. themselves because we all know one's. perception is one's reality. Whatever.

somebody perceives becomes their. reality. Even if it's not real, it's. their reality. Right? >> You cannot change their reality. And if. you try, you're gonna get resistance, right? because they they only know what. they know, right? If you keep trying, it's going to escalate. You're going to. get loud and keep on trying, it's going. to explode. You going to be rolling. around on the ground hitting each other. or whatever. Right. Because all fights. start with yelling and screaming. Right. >> Right. So rather it's rather than try to. attack somebody's reality and try to set.

their reality straight, don't do that. You'll fail. >> What you do is you offer them a better. perception or perceptions. >> Yes. And if they resonate with one of. your perceptions, like showing them this. guy speaks very eloquently, that guy. speaks like like like a [ __ ] Just let. them see it. >> Okay. That perception then resonates. with them and they change their own. reality. So don't focus on how you going. to change somebody's reality. Focus on. what kind of perceptions can I offer.

that person that might resonate. >> Right. Right. And just by example, but. who by who you are. Because when people. see someone speak and it resonates with. them and see someone speak and they you. can sense how they think of things, you. can see the thought process and you go, well, who do I admire more? I admire. this guy. He's like he's he's thinking. like this is an enlightened person. This. is a person who's thinking in a way that. I want to be able to think like that. Especially as a young kid, you know, you.

don't want to be a [ __ ] When you see. someone you think is a [ __ ] you're. like, "Okay, I'm glad I saw that guy. because that guy looks like a [ __ ]. idiot now. This guy, oh, that guy makes. more sense, you know?". >> Well, you know, when when Jeff and I. were in that uh Chris's Grill um and he. felt he was getting along too well with. the enemy being me and he started. beating his fist on the table and and. that's shown in the documentary. Um he. [clears throat] was trying to get a rise. out of me because I wasn't behaving the. way he was expecting me to behave,

>> right? And and so when he went into Nazi. mode, I remained the same way, >> right? >> And that freaked him out. >> Oh yeah. [laughter] Yes. Oh yes. >> What how did what did it feel like to. you? >> It Well, normally when you escalate and. we call this relational dialogue and we. do talks about this as well, but um. >> Oh, so it's a strategy. >> It's a strategy. Yeah. >> Wow. >> So when when I tried to escalate, normally almost 99.9% of the time when. you escalate, the other person. escalates. Daryl didn't escalate. So,

I'm doing that and he just goes and then. just continues the conversation like. like [laughter] I never even raised my. voice. So, I'm like, >> you know, if you start yelling at. somebody, they start yelling back and. right. >> So, I'm blown away by this. I'm like, why is this guy not reacting? What's. going on here? And so, now I'm really. dialed in because I'm trying to figure. him out. And that's when it and it was. soon after that that you explained the. story about um how the Cub Scouts and. how racism affected him growing up. >> And then all of a sudden I'm thinking.

about what if somebody would have done. that to one of my kids, >> right? >> And in I saw Daryl's humanity in that. moment. So that's how he cracked that. window open. >> Jeff just made a very point that I see a. lot of times. Okay. Because when things. escalate, okay, when you come in to meet. your adversary, you know, you know this. person has a different viewpoint than. you do, and you're not going to let them. try to change your viewpoint. You're. going to be stealed in into what you.

believe. Right. So, your ears are going. to be blocking out anything that does. not agree with your philosophy. Right. Right. So. in order to if you start escalating. stuff that that that that blockout. becomes even greater, right? >> So you want that person's wall to come. down. >> and by not reacting. um that person becomes curious. He's. like, you know, [clears throat] where's. this guy coming? What's up with him? You. know, he he's not reacting the way most. black people would react when I say.

whatever. Um, so as the wall comes down, the curiosity on his end rises and so. now his ears are unblocked and he's. ready to hear what I have to say. >> But I, you know, if if I'm escalating. and telling him my story while I'm. escalating about getting thrown rocks, he'll probably say, "Oh, well, it wasn't. me that did it, you know, so what's the. deal?". >> Well, that's almost all conversations. you have with people when you disagree. If you elevate your your language and.

start yelling and they start yelling, >> right, >> nobody figures out anything, right? >> No. No. Nobody's ever won an argument. that way. >> It's just a lot of [ __ ] you. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. A. >> lot of [ __ ] going on. [laughter]. >> It's like you uh you you don't get. taught that in school. And that's. unfortunate as well. You don't get. taught like how to control your emotions. and re and too many people like when. people say to someone, "Hey, shut the. [ __ ] up." like you you think that. person's going to listen like most of.

the time no. Like if you're arguing. about something and you do it like it's. almost always a bad idea, you know, it. just becomes a thing that people say, you know, like someone says [ __ ] you to. somebody and then the other it's it's. not like the person goes [ __ ] oh jeez, [ __ ] me. No, they go [ __ ] you back. [ __ ]. you. And then. >> then nothing gets done, you know. And. this this is a when you're having the. especially it's something so heavily. charged like a a racial discussion like. it's as a human being it's so important.

to think of how the other person is. viewing your words like how. what what are they accepting what do. they see in you and if you turn yourself. into an enemy and turn them into an. enemy nothing gets done. >> right so you know the cliche misery. loves company. Yeah. >> Negativity does promote negativity, right? Positivity promotes positivity. So, quick example, >> you know, you're you're driving down the. highway, you know, speed limits 55 miles.

an hour. You're doing 75 miles an hour, right? And you're getting ready to go. over this hill and the oncoming traffic, you know, some guy comes over the hill. before you crest it and this person is. flashing the lights. You don't know, you. don't know who's in that car, but. they're flashing the lights. >> Uhhuh. So that means usually there's a. cop on the other side with working radar. or it could be construction or an. accident, something you need to slow. down that, right? >> So you you hit your brakes before you go. over the hill and as soon as you crest.

the hill, oh, there's a cop with the. radar gun, man. >> You know, you you're going to have $150. ticket, right? Ruin your day, >> right? And that stranger, total stranger. who you you don't know what color he. was, what religion he is, who who he. voted for, who his daddy was, whatever, that person saved you from getting that. ticket, right? So, as you slowly cruise. by the cop, he doesn't pull you over or. whatever. Um, you know, you're going to. start flashing your lights at the. oncoming traffic to to save them, right?

But let's say, you know, you're coming. up the hill and people are coming over. the hill and nobody's flashing lights. and you go over that hill, right? There. he is, >> pulling you over, >> you know, license, registration, remain. in your car, I'll be with you in a. moment, comes back, gives you that $150. ticket, and tells you have a nice day. Um, you're, you know, you're ruined. You. lost 150 bucks. Um, your your your. insurance goes up because you got points. on your license now. you know, all kinds. of crap. Your your day is ruined. So.

now, as you continue down the street, you don't flash your lights either. That's their problem. >> So, you know, misery loves company. Negativity promotes negativity. A random. act of kindness from a stranger. >> All right? >> Well, you know, the the guy could have. been having a bad day and you flashed. your lights [clears throat] and you. saved him $150. >> Now, he's having a better day. He's. going to flash his lights. >> That's a good analogy. Yeah. And and. more humans need to not worry about. somebody's skin color or who's in the.

car or who they voted for. Just do acts. of kindness. Don't stop dehumanizing. people. You know, the guy in the car is. just as human as you are and you don't. even know who he voted for, but he. flashes lights to you and saved you some. money. >> Yeah. Um, do are you hopeful with all the work. that you've done and all the people that. you've removed from the Nazi party and. the Klux Clan and and and seeing how. your message resonates with people and. like I know every time I have you on I I.

get all these messages from people go, "Wow, that guy's amazing. Like what an. incredible journey." And it's like I. know it resonates with a lot of people, but there's still so much [ __ ] hatred. in the world. Do you feel hopeful? Do. you think think things are moving in a. generally good direction? >> I do, Joe. I do. And I'll tell you what, I I think right now we are in the best. time. I mean, it may seem like things. are very divisive right now. And they. are, okay, politically, racially,

whatever else. A lot of, you know, wars. going on, religious wars, and racism, anti-semitism arise in that and all. kinds of stuff. But yes, we are in the. best time right now because. people they don't want to be in this. time. You know, I I don't know if I can. have kids and raise them in this. environment, you know, that kind of. thing. No, listen, >> we in the best time because people are. of the mindset, well, racism is over. You know, you know, we had a black. president. There is no more racism. No,

there's still plenty of racism. All. right. Before you could turn a blind eye to it. If I don't see it, I don't hear it, then. it doesn't exist. But now, every time. you turn your head, it's there. It's. there. It's there. So, you can't escape. it. Now is the best time to address it, right? When it's in your face. Um, you. go on vacation. You know, you you're. going to drive your car to three states. away and you get 10 miles down the road. and your car is making some weird noise. Well, you don't want to get out of state.

and have your car break down. So you. turn around, go back to your mechanic, say, "Hey man, you know, hop in, ride. around the block with me, figure out. this noise." He gets in, rides around. with you. The noise stopped. He tells. you, "Well, I don't hear it. I I can't. fix what I don't hear." Right? But if he. hears it, oh yeah, you know, that's. that's one of your spark plugs loose or. something or whatever. Today, we cannot turn a blind eye. It's. everywhere. So now is the best time to. fix it, address it, >> especially because of social media. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

>> And I tell people, you know, people say, "Well, you know, Jeff or Daryl or. whoever, you know, you guys are on the. front line. You know, I I mean, I I I. want to help, but I don't know that I. could sit down and talk to somebody who. hates me. You know, I I'd probably go. off on them or I'd be afraid or, you. know, whatever that they don't want to. be on the front line, >> right? >> That's fine. Don't be on the front line. You can be on the backline. You can be. on the sideline. You can be online. All. right? Pick a line that you feel.

comfortable on and get on it. And no one. line is any more important than any. other line. And what I mean by that is. this. You can probably tell me your. favorite movie. You can probably tell me. how many Oscars it won. You can tell me. who the lead actress and lead actor. were. All right? But those are the. people on the front line, the lead. actress and actor. You know who they. are, right? But do you know who who was. the guy or guys operating the camera? Probably not. You don't know their names. even though they're listed at the end of. the movie because the credits run on for.

10 minutes, right? Those are the people. working on the backline. The person. hanging the lights, you know his name? No. How about the makeup artist? No. The. person, you know, who who got the. wardrobe together? Those are people. working on the sideline. Who put the. trailer on on the on the on the TV that, you know, the commercial to to promote. the movie or or on the internet? Those. are people working online to promote. that movie. Every one of those lines was. important to that movie getting that. many Oscars and becoming your favorite. movie. So, no one line is any more. important than any other line. And so, I.

tell people, look, you don't have to be. on the front line. Pick where you feel. comfortable and let's all work together. for the common goal. >> So, if someone's listening to this and. say, okay, what Daryl's saying really. resonates with me. How do I get started? How do I contribute? What would what. would you suggest? Email uh Jeff Scoop. at beyond barriers. Email Daryl Davis at. daryarydavis.com. Or I co-founded an. organization called the Prohuman. Foundation. All right. And you know, you.

mentioned anti-racist. You talk about. people always anti this, anti that, anti- that, right? >> You know, I I hear so much of that. I. say, you know what? >> People keep talking about what they're. against. Why don't we talk about what. we're for? That's more positive. I am. not anti-racist. All right. Now, what. does that mean? People say, "What? What? You're not anti-racist? What's that. mean? I, you know, if you use it in. terms of a noun, the racist being a. noun, I'm not anti- the person. I am.

anti- the person's ideology. I'm not. anti-racist. I'm anti- anti-racism. >> I'm anti- theism. I am pro-human is what. I am. So, I want to talk about what I'm. what I'm for. It's all Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So, contact the. prohumfoundation.org. contact beyond barriers and parents for. peace which I'm a part of as well you. know and we and we'll talk about how you. can get involved in being pro and dispel. you know don't be against the person be.

against the message you know if you want. to disagree with something. >> I think that's a beautiful way to end. this thank you. >> thank you Joe. >> thank you for everything you do I mean. you're a really extraordinary person. >> and the line you're on is the online so. thank you my friend [laughter]. >> my pleasure my pleasure and Jeff uh. thank you for, you know, first of all, just spreading this message and having. the courage to accept these bad. decisions that you've made and how you. got trapped and just to let people know. how a person like yourself who does seem.

like such a nice and intelligent guy. could get sucked into such an awful. ideology and I think that that's going. to help a lot of people. I really do. >> Thanks so much for having us. It's been. an incredible honor to be here. >> My pleasure. All right. So, your book. American Nazis available now. And Daryl, your book Clan Whisperer, also. available. >> I used one of your quotes there. Thank. you very much. Did you? I sure did. Oh, beautiful. Did you do the audio for. this? Did you do an audio version of it? >> Like like like Jeff, it's a work in. progress. >> All right. Well, thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Bye, everybody. [music].