Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> This is really not good for you. That. glass of wine is so. >> well. One glass of wine I do not think. is bad for you. It's not great for you, >> right? >> But a glass of wine relaxes you and. there's probably benefit in being. relaxed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree. But the problem was I own. a nightclub and I'm there all the time. and I'm drinking a glass out with the.

fellas and then I'd maybe have a couple. glasses of whiskey on a podcast with. some guys and then. >> when I stopped I was like oh my god I. felt so much better like why was I. poisoning myself? >> Really? You did feel much better. immediately? You felt it? >> Yeah because when you think about it we. rolling? >> Yeah. So, when I stopped drinking, uh, I. was probably having like two or three. glasses of some kind of alcohol a night, two or three nights a week. And then I'd.

go out to dinner with my wife and have. like a glass or two of wine. That's a. lot of drinks over the week. And you. don't think it's much cuz you're not. drunk. >> But the next day I'd be like like a. little draggy like when I go to the gym. >> and that's gone. >> That's great. >> Yeah. I wish I had that uh strength. >> It's not not even strength. It was easy. to do. >> I don't Yeah. You know, I I had uh I. haven't had a glass of anything for a. week now. I had surgery exactly a week. ago. >> What'd you have done? >> An appendecttomy.

>> Oh, >> yeah. I was uh it was exactly last. Thursday, which is why I have these uh. >> marks on my arms. Um yeah, I thought I. had to go to the bathroom all day and. then my husband forced me because I had. stomach pain and I just thought I had. food poisoning or something. So I kept. on going to the toilet. >> Those are scary. >> Nothing was happening. Yeah. Yeah. It. didn't burst. But uh my husband forced. me to go to the hospital and I got there. and yeah, there was an appendicitis when. I had emergency appendecttomy the next. morning. >> Um but so uh which recovery has been to.

totally fine but I haven't wanted to. drink because I want to make sure I was. going to be able to come here. >> today and uh I wanted to recover faster. So um yeah. Yeah. So, the longest I've. ever been drinking. >> Well, you have a very, very stressful. job. >> It's insanely stressful. You are one of. the most boots on the ground journalists. I've ever met. You go to some really. dangerous and terrifying places. Like, I.

still get nightmares from that video. where you showed me where you went to. the the jungle where they processed. cocaine. >> Yeah. and then walked out with them, hiked out with them through the I mean, that was just nuts. >> Yeah. Don't don't mean to cause you. nightmares, but uh I love doing what I. do. You know, we've done five seasons of. Trafficked. The last season just. premiered a couple of months ago. Um. it's available now on Hulu. And uh. unfortunately, it's the last season of. Trafficked. Um. >> why is that?

>> I think a few reasons. I think it's, you. know, it's a a risky show to put. together, right? It's a costly show. It's um Disney decided that Nagio should. be doing more natural history and animal. programming and uh yeah I think Traffic. is just a difficult it is really. challenging show to put together but I'm. incredibly proud of the work we've done. and this last season the fifth season. has some of my favorite stories we've. done and um I'm now starting a podcast. or you know I launched it yesterday so.

now I'm your competition it's about time. >> um someone will do your show again. somewhere else though. It's too good. >> This is what I'm hoping is with the. podcast. It's on YouTube and I'm growing. it into something bigger. So, it starts. with interviews. The podcast is called. The Hidden Third. Uh because an. estimated 35% of the global economy are. these black and gray markets, which is. what I've reported on. Wait a minute. It's crazy number, right? Mhm. >> 35% of the economy. >> Estimated 35% which is what economists. call the hidden third. So, we're not. just talking about illegal activities.

and goods like drugs and scams and. whatnot and guns. We're also talking. about UN so the gray that's the black. market and then there's the gray market. which are the is the irregula. unregulated part of the economy. So. untaxed work, untaxed goods, everything. from like the man selling fruit on the. corner um you know to um other other. jobs and and goods that are in tax. But. this actually has an effect on all of us. because it's less money that comes in. for schools and infrastructure and. hospitals and all the stuff we need. And.

then apart from all that we know which. is the black market and how that affects. us all which is you know whether you. talk about guns or drugs or immigration. I mean it all has a direct impact on our. lives. So with this podcast, what I. really wanted to do is after reporting. on these black markets for 20 years is I. wanted to have a place like this where I. can have intimate, raw, you know, sometimes difficult conversations with. people who have lived or are living on. the other side of the law and um who,

you know, I wanted to figure out why. somebody decides to become a smuggler, a. trafficker, a scammer, a bookie, uh you. know, all these crazy. lives that people lead uh see how it. affects us all. Understand why the what. they do affects us all and also I think. the most important part for me which has. always been and I I've talked about this. with you which is trying to understand. if um the circumstances were different. if it could have been you and me doing. that you know. >> I think most certainly that's the case.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Most certainly it's the case. geographically. >> Oh 100% geographically. >> If you have no options and you're stuck. in a third world country guess what? Yeah. >> You know, you do what you got to do. >> Yeah. It was that story that we did in. the same episode you mentioned, the. cocaine trafficking, which I will never. forget, >> which was the kid who was carrying in. his backpack, right? He was 16, 17 year. old kid carrying cocaine, 20 kilos of. cocaine on his back for days on end on. in the jungles, seen so many of his.

friends being killed in front of him by. rebel gangs, rival gangs. And uh when he. um you know, when I asked him, "Why are. you doing what you too. He says, "Because I've always wanted to be a. dentist. I want to go to school and be a. dentist, but my family's too poor and. they can't afford my education, and the. only job that I have available for me. now is uh is doing this cocaine. trafficking or, you know, carrying. cocaine on my back.". >> And these are stories I hear all the. time. So, the the idea of being able to. place ourselves in people's shoes and. understand that yes, even the people.

that we consider the bad guys could be. me and you, as as you know, has always. been very important for me. So, the. podcast allows me to do that. Well, that's great. When when you say that. like it's onethird, how much of it is. stuff that's not dangerous like selling. fruit on the side of the road? And. >> so it's tax labor, >> it's difficult to have exact numbers, but the estimate is that about 15%. 15 to 20% are black markets and the rest. are gray markets. So the totality is. around 35% an estimate.

>> Okay. Um but I mean. >> so it's kind of half. >> yeah more or less. >> half dangerous stuff. >> half people unregulated stuff but I mean. they also mix right because um you know. a lot of times what happens in one side. affects the other you know um one of the. the really interest the the things that. I think we've talked about a lot is uh I. think this number shocks a lot of people. but if you think of the drug trade alone.

$600 billion. That's the estimate. Anywhere between 300 and $600 billion. every year just from the drug trade. alone. Um you know these these are crazy. numbers. >> and so it's it's not so out of the box. to think that yeah this is a hard large. percentage of our economy. >> Is it difficult to get people to come. and sit with you on a podcast and talk. about illegal activities? >> Yes, but it's it was also on the show. I. think the harder part is that on the.

show, we figured out a way of how to. make them comfortable because I would go. to them, right? On the podcast, it's. harder to convince an active trafficker. or smuggler to come and sit down in my. office, >> right? I would think it's a setup. >> So, yeah. So, uh you know, a lot of. times the meetings that we had on the. show happened in undisclosed locations. in vans for example, or in places that. they felt comfortable with their, you. know, drug labs or their drug houses or. their homes. sometimes. So, this has.

been a little bit harder, but we're. we're making it we're making it work. We're having we're hoping that it grows. so then we actually have money to start. traveling more and going to some of. these places. >> Is this something that you always wanted. to do like do a podcast or is it. something that was a necessity when the. show was cancelled or did you just think. maybe I should branch out? I've always. wanted to do it and I tried uh we had. done an iteration of it a couple of. years ago, but I just didn't have the. time because I was traveling, you know,

half the year or more um for traffic. So, it was really hard to do a weekly. podcast. It was almost impossible. But I. spent so much time talking to people uh. who have really interesting backgrounds. and then we use only five minutes of. their interview if if that. And these. are fascinating people that again have. >> Do you have access to that footage? >> The footage. >> the footage that you edited out? >> Uh yes. I mean yes. >> But do you have access to it? Like are. you allowed to. >> or is it if it's owned by by National.

Geographic? It's owned by National. Geographic. >> I wonder if they would sign off on. letting you put that on your podcast. because that would be fascinating as. well because I I bet there's a lot that. was missed on the editing floor. >> You have no idea. Yeah, absolutely. But. the good news is that I have. >> let her have the footage. It only help. >> but I have all the contacts. So as long. as soon as I start brand as this starts. building up the podcast the hope is that. um I'll build it myself from the ground. up because all the contacts are mine you. know all the contact you have contacts.

with like assassins and drug dealers. text each other. Hey what's up. >> send emojis. I mean, yeah. I mean, these. are people. I mean, the assassins less. so, but the traffickers and the. smugglers and the scammers. >> Absolutely. I'm still in touch with a. lot of them. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Do you have like a file or you like like. >> You want to see my secret file? >> But do you have them like labeled like. super shady, less than. >> just unfortunate circumstances,

coldblooded killers? >> It's all under my encrypted messaging. apps. Um, no. Uh, no. You know, it's. really crazy because of the success of. traffic, the amount of messages I still. get on Instagram and social media on a. weekly basis from people who want to be. on the show. Now, with the podcast as. well, I'm hoping that it will grow into. that. But people just showing me their. drugs and their guns. They show me. photos of the stuff that they're doing. and they they. >> Is it because these people feel like. they're going to die anyway, like.

they're going to probably get killed? >> A lot of them are, you know, afraid. One. of the most interesting people we filmed. for this last season of trafficked was a. guy that we called El Gringo. So it was. the premiere episode of this season was. about cartel. It was called cartel USA. It's about the cartel presence in the. United States. I've reported extensively. on cartels in Mexico, right? And in. Colombia and in other parts, but I. haven't actually spent a lot of time. with the cartel here or seen what kind. of influence they have in the US. And uh. so I had this idea, okay, let's try to.

figure out how massive their presence is. is here, how they make the money, how do. they they distribute the drugs, and what. impact is it having on um on in America. And what I found was uh um very several. very surprising facts. Um the story. actually starts in Sinoa because I had. to go there to get access to the people. in the US. So I had to go to the top. bosses to be able to to get the green. light to then film their operations. here. What is that like? >> Sinaloa. I mean, it's the place in the.

world that I've reported most more from. Um, apart from the United States, I've. reported more from Sinoa than anywhere. else. Uh, I have good contacts there. I. have an incredible local journalist. called Miguel Vega who's called he's. fixer. He's the guy that any journalist. in the world who wants to get access to. the cartel will contact him. And then he. has his own contacts. He's just an. incredibly brave journalist with his own. contacts. And then he um basically. contacts his people and then they decide.

if they want to talk or not. And uh a. lot of times they don't. And a sometimes. I've done this so many times that that. by now they trust me. They know that I'm. not law enforcement. >> And so they allow me to film their. operations. So we've I filmed super meth. labs, super labs of meth there. I filmed. uh fentinyl lab. I filmed a guy cooking. fentinil. We were all full, you know, masked up and I filmed the whole. operation. Um, I mean, uh, I filmed. Sikarios. I've, uh, yeah, I filmed more.

from Sinoa than anywhere else in the. world. >> But it's got to be very scary to go. there and hang out with those people. Do. they put boundaries on topics? >> Um, not on top. Yes. For example, I'm. not, even though I'm in Solo, I'm not. supposed to ask which cartel people work. for where it's obvious that when you're. in Soloa, everyone works for the Senoloa. cartel. I mean, everybody that's. involved in the cartel works for the. Sinoa cartel. Um, there are other. cartels trying to make um.

headway in the in that region, but. usually it's all Senaloa. Um, so you're. not supposed to ask uh who exactly they. work for. And um and yeah, there some. questions about money, for example, how. much money they make. People don't like. to be asked that, but I always ask all. those questions anyway. And I I you. know, you get a sense whether you're. pushing it too far, >> right? Have you ever had a moment when. you were doing that? We're like, I think. I crossed the line. >> Um, we had a mo I had a moment where we.

stayed too long. So, it was a day we. were doing a story. It was for season. one. It was about guns and how about. American guns, the flow of American guns. to Mexico. >> Exly. That was when you got the police. people that were selling drugs. illegally. So, for people that didn't. see that episode, it's quite. fascinating. police in Los Angeles, dirty cops, were. loading up their trunks with guns that. they've confiscated and then selling. them across the border in Mexico. >> Oh, they were selling it to gang members.

or affiliate of cartel members in LA who. would then ship it. Yeah, they would. cross the border and ship it to. >> LA. Yeah, we visit it was it was a. scene. Yeah, it started with a scene in. that episode started with a scene in LA. where we interviewed a guy who goes by. the name of T. And uh he had a room. packed with rifles and when I started. asking him where they were from, he was. like, "Oh, this one was confiscated. We. have an LAPD um contact that, you know, sells us a lot of our drugs.". >> I just don't understand what benefit to.

them. >> to the police. >> Yeah. For them. No, but for them No, for. them to talk to you. >> Which which one? the any of them like. the especially the cops. >> So I it's the question that I get the. the cops didn't talk we didn't get the. >> you got it from the people that. >> we got it from the gang member. Yeah the. cops sold the guns to so I've spoken to. cops who are doing amazing work here in. the US in combating drug trafficking and. and gun trafficking and in Mexico as.

well. Um but um but these we're talking. about corrupt cops so we yeah that was. not the case. Uh this was a gang member. telling me how he had acquired those. guns from LAPD confiscated guns that he. had acquired from LA. >> But even that like what would be the. benefit to him to talk to you? >> I think for so in that case it went back. to my contacts in Siloa and I think it's. three reasons why people talk to us. I. think the first one is ego. people want. to boast and if you're part of the. Senoloa cartel or even if you're a boss. in the Senoloa cartel and you're there's.

an ongoing war between you a turf war. between you and another gang like the C. JNG uh which is a cartel Halisco um. they're they're fighting for power right. so here's an opportunity to show how. powerful you are are so it's ego right. and a lot of these people that talk to. me I don't you know very often or more. often than not it's not the bosses or. the kingpins that I'm talking to, right? It's the Sikarios. It's the middle and. low-level people. It's the traffickers.

It's the chemists. It's the smugglers. It's not the kingpins. And for them, they spend their whole lives doing. something that sometimes their own. families don't know they're they do. Like I remember uh an episode we did. about counterfeit money, people who make. fake US uh dollars and euros in Peru in. Lima. And this guy was like shiny eyes, so excited, showing me how he finishes. these bills to make it look and feel and. smell exactly like a $100 bill. And when.

I asked him, and he's a taxi driver by. day, and he does this by night, and and. uh and I was asking him, "So why did you. accept talking to us?" He says, "Look, my wife doesn't even know how good I am. I am the best of the best at doing this. Like, nobody in the whole world can make. this as well as I do." and I always. wanted to be able to talk to somebody. and show off how good my skills are and. you're giving me an opportunity to do. this. >> That's crazy. >> So, I think ego plays a huge role. And. then impunity, like in places like.

Mexico, so much corruption, like what's. the downside to talking to this woman. who comes and asks funny questions, right? >> Right. >> And then and then I think it's the. wanting to be understood. I think. everybody wants to be understood and. they know they're considered the bad. guys. They know that, you know, um, you. know, there's so much stigma around what. they do. And I tell everybody, I'm here. to try to understand what you do. I'm. not here to judge you because I think. it's much more important to understand. why you do what you do. >> The guy who makes counterfeit bills,

what's his process? >> Oh, it's freaking fascinating. >> cuz does he replicate a dollar bill with. all like the little things inside of it? >> It was incredible. So there's different. there's the graphics person, there's the. printer and then then he is he does the. finishing job. He's the finisher and uh. he said he was the best finisher in the. job and I said he's I started calling. him Cristiano Honaldo the Portuguese. football player because he's the. finisher in soccer. So I called him. Hornaldo. Okay, you're Hono. And he uses. he uses a a um it's kind of like a.

porridge that I used to eat when I was a. kid in in Portugal. It's called like. it's a type of like a cereak. You don't. you guys don't have it here, but it's. like a a meal. Um, what do you call. that? Like cornmeal, like a cornmeal. >> Um, and he uses that and I saw him using. it. Uh, um, it's not set actually, it's. my, which is another brand, but it he. uses this sort of cornmeal to finish. these bills to make it the consistency. when you touch it feel exactly like the. real stuff. >> Is it made with the same paper?

>> Uh, no. It's a different paper. The. paper is the hardest part to get because. the paper you can only get um in the US. Federal Reserves or wherever the paper. comes from. It's not. >> like an easy thing to duplicate. >> Yeah. >> It's not very hard and particularly if. you put the you know all the little. creases and curves and what. >> what about those little things that you. can only see with like a flashlight and. stuff like. >> they have ways around that too. It was. incredible. We brought some home. Haven't used it. It's at my office. But.

it is. >> able to possess that stuff. >> Okay. So, we actually didn't bring the. actual we we brought the cutouts so I we. wouldn't be able to use it, but it's not. it's in the background of my podcast. So, >> Whoa. This episode is brought to you by. the farmer's dog. We all know. ultrarocessed food isn't good for us as. humans. Why would it be any different. for our dogs? The farmer's dog is real. fresh food for dogs. And their recipe. goes beyond just using good ingredients. It's all about how they use them. Unlike.

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make it their way into our current. Is. this it right here? >> Yeah, this is it. This is the finisher. Yeah, he is. And you see he's teaching he's. showing me. And there's a glue too. Yeah. >> And so he's making it seem more. weathered, more worn. >> And they make it seem weathered and. worn. >> Wow. Wow. >> It's it's it's so crazy. >> And how how many. >> porridge you see? Yeah. >> Yeah. So he scrubs it down a little bit. >> Yeah. With a toothbrush. All stuff that.

he bought at the store like next door. that that you know. >> how much currency goes through this. guy's production. >> I cannot remember. This was five years. ago. It was season one, but it was a. lot. And it's the US Secret Services. that are in charge of uh going after. these guys. So, we actually saw the real. money being made when we came back to. the US and um but I can't remember but. it was millions of dollars. I mean there. was there were it was like five or six. families in Peru and Lima. They're the.

center of all this that were make that. were in charge that were the best of the. best at making these and we got inside. one of these. >> And how does that stuff get into US. distribution? Uh usually in bags um. commercial airlines just like drugs a. lot of drugs make it in commercial. airlines same thing commercial airlines. bags people would carry uh the money. mules would carry it actually carrying. money. >> and then when it gets to America what do. they do with it. >> they distribute it so it's funny it's. interesting they actually start they go.

to small towns and they distribute it in. grocery stores and they don't go to like. a Walmart or a big superstore they go to. small first and that's how it gets in. the general that's how that buy it. They. buy things and uh. I wish I remember this was 5 years ago. Um they buy things but they also have. people that exchange that for less cash. Yeah, that's what it was. I think they. get end up getting people. >> So people that know. >> Yeah. that know and they end up getting. like 70% of what I think it was.

something like 70% of the actual cost. for real bills. So they get real money. in exchange for giving. >> They get 70% of what a real. >> I mean the whole operation I think was. >> So if you have a $20 bill, you get 70%. of that back in profit. Like a fake. >> back in profit. Yeah. The the head of. the group that then sells the bills when. they're made. >> I would have thought it way less than. that for someone to be willing to. exchange you real money for fake money. >> Yeah. I have to I have to verify again. This is 5 years ago. We've done 50.

episodes, but I think it was something. like that if I remember. That's crazy. though that it just gets distributed by. small businesses. >> Yeah. And and so one of the things we. started was we reported on a lot of. these small businesses that found out. that they were having massive amounts of. loss every year from fake bills. And uh. and I remember it was in in Oregon. Um. we did a few stories there where a lot. of people were complaining about this. small business. >> How does it get how do they get. discovered that they have fake bills? >> I think they go to the bank and try to.

>> Oh, the bank knows. They try to deposit. it. >> Do they like look at every number on the. bills? Like how do they find out that. they're fake? >> I think the bank is able to find out. just by looking at it. Um, okay. >> Because I think it it it, you know, would fool us, but it doesn't fool. somebody who's trained to look at these. bills. >> So the bank when you bring money to the. bank, they look at every bill. Yeah, I. know that that's how they figured out. that they had. >> You got to go to a lazy bank. >> Go to go to bank where people are just. phoning partying all night.

>> Yeah. They just they just assume that. it's real. They don't care. >> Yeah. That's crazy though. So like what. is like for the overall United States. like how much money comes in every year. that's fake? >> Oh, it was I cannot remember at all the. statistics but it was it was a lot. It. was like in the millions of dollars that. people were making down there. >> Wow. >> It was crazy. Yeah. But this all back to. the story of why I talked about this guy. about why people talk to us and oh and. back to the cartel USA story um which uh. started in Sinoa there was a point to.

this you were asking me about how it. ended up in the US. Oh what I discovered. with cartels operations in the United. States. Um so one of the people we. interviewed which was really fascinating. um and it was somebody who had this. carried this load on his back and why he. t decided to talk to us was this guy. called Elgringo or we called him El. Gringo and El Gringo is an American. citizen who doesn't speak a word of. Spanish and who sort of the wholesale. buyer of drugs from the cartel and then. is in charge of distributing the drugs.

here in the US. He distributes most of. his drugs through commercial airlines, usually Delta because they have really. good baggage fees. They 70 pounds uh two. bags 70 pounds if you fly business. And. so a lot of times it was strippers who. would carry the drugs from the west. coast to the east coast. And he one of. the things I'll never forget, he says, "If you're taking a Delta flight from. the west coast to the east coast, I. guarantee that there's a very high. chance that somebody is carrying drugs. on one of those flights.". >> Wow. You said strippers.

>> Strippers. Yeah. Why do they use. trippers? >> Because uh they are uh because people. don't suspect it's a woman. So people. are less suspicious of women. >> and there's a higher chance that they'll. make it and they are more likely to take. the money to do this. >> in this case to do this job or they I. mean at least those are the people that. he found would agree to do this. I mean. I don't want to say anything bad about. strippers. >> You get busted doing that though. >> Yeah. >> That is a big penalty. >> Yeah. You're going to jail for a long.

time. It's obviously a terrible idea. >> Such a risk. >> Yeah. So, this guy, El Ringo, decided to. talk to me. Um, and he was the one who. contacted me. He contacted me initially. And when telling me that he had a story. he wanted to share, that he was uh. involved with the cartel. And then so. when we started doing the story about. the cartel, I reached back out to him. and said, "Actually, I'm doing a story. about cartel presence here. Would you. want to, you know, be on the show?" And. um and he agreed. and he uh traveled out. to me and we met and he said, "Look,

I've been dying to tell this story. because if I get whacked uh which he. thought he might he wanted his story to. be out there. He wanted somebody to have. heard his whole story.". >> Wow. >> Yeah. And he'd been threatened by the. cartel. They'd been sent him photos of. his house and where they knew exactly. where he lived and where his family was. So, >> yeah. Crazy story. >> Gez. >> So, >> that was a crazy story. When you go over. and you have these conversations with. the cartels, like what what is that.

like? Do they blindfold you and drive. you out there? Do they take your phone. away? >> Yeah. Um they ask for our phones to be. off. Um turn off. >> That's not good enough. >> Don't they know that's not good enough? >> Uh. where we go in Sinoa. >> Uhhuh. >> is areas that are operated and. controlled by the cartel. It's not as if. law enforcement doesn't know exactly. where they are. They do. Oh, >> you know, >> okay. They just don't want you. recording. >> They just don't want us recording. And. they they are afraid that if we by any.

chance are being followed by American. law enforcement, they're way more scared. of American law enforcement than they. are of Mexican law enforcement. >> because Mexican law enforcement is. probably. >> Because there's a lot of corruption. Yes. A lot of corruption. Um I mean, I've been in situations where, you know, there were police officers in the room. Um so. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Uh-huh. So, >> corrupt cops. >> Corrupt cops. Yeah. >> Wow. Just in uniform. >> Sometimes in uniform, sometimes just.

hanging out. Yeah. They're corrupt cops. who work many times for the cartel, right? And that happens all over. I. mean, that's not just in Mexico that. it's happened. I've seen it in Colombia. >> Uh we've I've seen it in Brazil. We did. a story about militias um where I filmed. a militia in Brazil with cops around. So, yeah, that happens unfortunately. everywhere. Um, but so when it's not as. if they don't know where these people. are. They are just afraid that maybe the. DEA knowing that I'm a journalist and I. go and do the this stuff that they might. be following me. So sometimes they ask. for our phones to stay behind, but a lot.

of times they just want our phones off. um so that we don't transmit any. signals. Um but once we're in their. territory, it takes months to get them. to say yes. And there's all these ground. rules, right? We can't disclose. locations or people. We have to make. sure we always bring masks and t-shirts, long sleeve t-shirts and hoodies and. everything with us because if they have. tattoos and we want to make sure that. they we don't show who they are because. that can create a problem for them, but.

it can also create a problem for us and. it can create a problem to the local. journalists that help us because they're. going to be the first targets. >> If I was this finisher guy, I would say. you got to put sunglasses on me because. I have very recognizable eyes. >> You know, it's interesting. Most people. don't want to wear sunglasses. We always. travel with sunglasses and we ask people. to put on sunglasses and people. sometimes don't. They they say we don't. care. >> Needed sunglasses. His eyes are very. recognizable. Very unusual coloring. under the eyes. >> I have not met or I haven't heard of a. single person yet who has been caught um. from our show and I'm in touch with a.

lot of them. Well, that's great. So, it's been it's been good. >> It might just be because they're not. trying. >> I I really realistically don't think. it's be it's not because they don't know. that these who they are or where they. are. It's not that law enforcement is. blind to this, >> right? >> Um I think it's it's. unwillingness sometimes to go after. this. It's realizing that actually these. are the low-level guys and what they. really want is to get at the big guys, the kingpins, which is a better strategy. anyway. >> But isn't that sometimes how they do it?

They get a low-level guy and get them to. turn. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Um. >> Yeah. But uh. >> what a terrifying world that only exists. because of an illegal market that the. United States fuels. >> Yeah. The biggest drug consumers in the. world. >> Largest. Number one. >> We're number one. >> Number one. I mean, number one in. incarcerations. Number one. It's $150. billion in drugs that we spend every. year. >> That's so crazy. >> Crazy. And you know, we share this. border with Mexico, which is fortunate.

and very unfortunate for them. Right. >> They they blame us for creating the. consumer market. We blame them for. creating the the drugs that feed this. consumer market. And there's. >> is there anyone that has a realistic. solution to how to at least mitigate. some of that? >> We've talked about this uh we we had a. little bit of a debate about this last. time because I keep giving the example. of Portugal and you said which has. decriminalized drugs, right? And I know. Portugal is not the United States. We're.

10 million people. We're a small. country. But it whatever we it worked. there. Um drug abuse went down, incarceration went down, >> HIV went down, levels of HIV went down. So it worked there. They tried it in. Oregon, right? It went terribly. >> Yeah. But Oregon is a bad place to try. it because Oregon was already so lawless. that going to Oregon, it like allowed. people to like ramp it up. And so. because you could get anything and. everything was decriminalized, they just. went ham.

>> Yeah. And also they didn't have the. system in place for people who actually. wanted rehab, >> right? >> And and so when you don't, what are. people going to do? They're going to go. back to to drugs. >> Even then rehab is very ineffective like. percentage wise. >> It is. That's was another episode we did. this season that you should watch. It's. about it's called the rehab scam. It's. the great American rehab scam. Yes. >> And it's about how in California we did. we filmed in Arizona and California. In. California alone, we had an insurance. the head of the insurance um.

investigations in California, an. insurance fraud investigator in. California told us that in his. estimates, but he said they're probably. very low. 10% of the thousands of rehab. facilities out there are probably a. fraud and a scam and which they%. >> 10% which is a crazy number, but he. thinks it's a low number that it's. probably much higher than that. So we. what we our story was all about body. brokering and rehab scams and. >> body brokering. >> Body brokering. Yeah. It's it's an it's.

a term apply that applies to uh rehab. scam. So rehab scams is basically the. the buying and selling of addicts in. this billion dollar market. Right? So. it's uh um these they create these fake. uh rehab centers that bill insurance for. treatments that they are not actually. giving people. Um so uh for example it's. a huge problem in Arizona and that's why.

we started and in California but we. started in Arizona. Native Americans. have really easy access to um health. insurance through the the. Indian-American health plan that they. created. And it started as a good thing. because there's it was difficult. A lot. of people lived in reservations far. away. A lot of people, you know, because. of generational trauma and alcohol abuse. and drug abuse, there's a real need for. health insurance and for them to have. access to health insurance. So, you have. these huge communities that when COVID.

happened, uh, the state made it even. easier for them to get the help that. they needed through health insurance. But all these bad actors realized, "Oh, this is great. We're just going to build. these fake rehab centers, go around in. white vans, literally, there's like. thousands of people still missing in. Arizona, most of them Native Americans. and they go out in white vans to these. reservations in Arizona and New Mexico. and they bring people people who you. know um have problems with drug and.

alcohol and they bring people to these. centers and then they start building. insurance. They get you on an insurance. plan and they start building insurance. crazy amounts of money. Like we spoke, we were investigating this one facility. that they were making 800 and something. um million dollar sorry 800 and. something thousand uh $870,000. a week a week from you know dozens of. people that they were housing and and. not actually providing them the.

treatment that they so desperately. needed. >> So just house them. >> So which is also illegal. You can't. house some you can't offer somebody free. housing. uh and then then tell them that you will. only get the free housing if you go and. do our treatment. That's illegal. It's. an illegal kickback. But so they were. doing this out in the open. And some of. these business operators were actually. not even Americans. They were Nigerians. I found out that there were some. Nigerians that own own some of these. rehab facilities. >> Nigerians are so good at scam. >> Oh my god, it's so ingenious.

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be of legal drinking age. Please drink. responsibly. Happy Dad. Hard seltzer tea. and lemonade is a malt alcohol located. in Orange County, California. >> But Americans, too. I mean, there were a. lot of them that were Americans. So, these guys are like driving around in. Ferraris. And, you know, people are. living in these fake centers. I spoke to. people who the therapy that they were. they were billing like $2,500 for a. therapy session. Now, one-hour therapy.

session that was a Zoom meeting, a Zoom. call with 600 people on the call and. that's the therapy session. >> Oh, >> it's bananas. Or people who weren't even. there and they build for insurance and. the people were. >> so 600 people were they were collecting. $2,000 from 600 people for one hour. Wow. >> It is insane. Well, I could see why they. would do that. >> Yeah. >> If that's a possibility to make money. Yeah. If you open the door to criminals. And the thing about rehabilitation.

centers is a lot of people that get go. to rehab or get involved in rehab. They've also had shady pasts, >> right? They've been involved with. criminals. And then they go, "Listen, man. I think there's money to be made. here. >> Like, this ain't fixing nobody. This is. courtor- orderered rehabilitation. I had. to go in here, right? >> Let's make some money, right? >> Start our own place." What are what's. the like what what's the steps that one. has to take if one was to open up? Not. that I'm thinking about doing it. Not. that I'm thinking about doing it. >> If someone was a scumbag, someone was a.

terrible person, not me, but if someone. was a terrible person, like what would. someone do? What like what are the. parameters? What do you have to do to. open up? >> You need a license, probably a state. license. But in some cases, it was just. really easy to get a state license. There was in Florida it became a huge. problem. It was called the Florida. shuffle, which was this. you were going. back and forth between, you know, detox. and rehabs and uh outpatient treatment. centers and they were all owned by the. same sort of, you know, well-known. fraudsters.

>> So, you have to get a a a license, but. there's not much more. And that was the. problem is that anyone could get a. license and anyone could operate one of. these. >> I was reading about a judge that. recently got busted because this judge. was sentencing people to the rehab that. they owned. >> Yeah, that is. And so taking like like. dangerous violent criminals and not. incarcerating them, but instead sending. them to these rehabilitation centers. that they owned. >> Wow. Yeah. >> And just collecting. >> Yeah. It is it's so sad. It's it's. really um you know, as somebody who's.

reported on the opiate crisis for so. long, just that is the only hope, right? Let's figure out a way. This is we we. have been trying to arrest ourselves and. militarize uh ourselves out of this. problem. It doesn't work. >> It doesn't work. It's a public health. crisis. >> 100%. >> One of the other stories we did this. season was about tran dope. Do you know. what tran dope is? >> Tran dope? >> Yeah. >> No. >> It's fentinil now is being mixed with a. thing called xylazine which is an animal. tranquilizer.

>> Oh fun. >> H so fun. Uh it's horrible. Um, and 90%. of the fentinel that is now being that's. coming out of Philadelphia, you know, Kensington, you you've seen the zombies. >> Oh, I have seen Tran where those people. like fall over. >> Yeah, like like zombies. They're walking. down. >> like they're doing crazy yoga. >> Yeah, in Kensington. It's the saddest. thing. So, we spent time in Kensington. filming. >> What is it about that stuff? Is it the. tranquilizer that makes them just fall. over like that standing up? >> Yeah, it's part of it. So. >> it's it's a really interesting you know.

as we all know it all started with. Oxycottton and then it went to heroin. and heroin was a great high for people. who are addicted to opiates because it. was a powerful high and it would keep. you high for a long time and then came. fentinel and fentinyl gives you an even. more powerful high but it's fast acting. so you get out of it fast. So somebody. realized if we mix tran um animal. tranquilizer with this. >> it will you will still have the big high. but it will extend the time that you.

have that high. >> and what is happening to you know. thousands of people across the US is. that they are taking these drugs getting. the high that they want. >> You're doing it like this is it IV. >> oh my god it's horrible. No they're. shooting it up and this is what we shot. in Kansas. Yeah, they shoot it up and. what we shot in Kensington. >> Oh, this is it. And where is this? >> This is Philly. >> Philly. Outside of Philly. It's in. Kansas. >> It's a big problem in Philadelphia. >> But this is if you find And this might. be too disturbing, Jamie. >> I was just trying to find something that.

just to show what he was asking. >> What's too disturbing? >> It's what we filmed in our show, which. was the the wounds that come Jang. >> Green. It's like It looks like leprosy. Um, and it's people being amputated. because. >> the title of this is losing arms and. legs from China. There you go. Oh my. god, that guy's got no life because of. it. Oh god. >> Yeah, that guy is missing an arm. But. the gang green and the open wounds and. we filmed somebody being treated and. this woman's arm was like all gone.

>> It was just one of the most painful. things to to watch. And this, you know, you can imagine the smell and and. >> I knew a comedian who went to the. hospital for gang green because of. heroin. Almost lost his leg. He wound up. dying eventually, but Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, and now with Tran, it's. just gotten and yeah, I don't I don't. think any of these people want to be. doing this, right? Nobody wants to be. living out on a look. I mean, >> oh boy. >> And this is not I mean, the one we. >> Yeah, this is just clicking around.

There's a ton of videos about it. So, if. anyone's curious, just go and see. comparatively. >> Yeah. There's some people in this. country that have no hope and they're. they're just they're the the addiction. just has got them and. >> there's no help for them. And if you get. sent to a phony rehab. >> while you're in that state, that's that. is really evil. That's really evil, >> isn't it? I think it's really evil, too. But I I think yeah, in many ways, people. sometimes think, oh, these they're. junkies. They're they're out there. They.

just want this life and they have failed. society. I quite frankly think we have. failed them. >> Well, not you and me, but the structure. of our government. Yeah. Has failed. them. >> Are you aware of IBA gain? >> Yes. I I listened to the interview you. did with. >> with Rick Perry, governor, former. governor of Texas. >> Yeah, that was fascinating. >> Yeah, that is insanely effective and um. readily available in Mexico. And now, fortunately, because of former Governor. Rick Perry, it's available in Texas. So. they're doing it now in Texas with uh.

soldiers with PTSD, people coming back. from the war with great efficacy and. people that that have also been hooked. on substances because of some of the. things that they've seen. So I think. that's a great doorway into the right. because the right has always viewed. these things like particularly a. psychedelic which I will gain is I guess. it's category one right it's schedule. one I don't know I think it's schedule.

one is I gain schedule one um but it's. certainly illegal in America and it's. thought of as I don't know how you could. ever consider it recreational. >> because it's a apparently a very brut. brutal experience and very introspective. and most people say I did not enjoy that. at all. I hated it. >> Uh I had Dakota Meyer on the podcast and. he talked about it. He was like I wanted. to punch the guy who gave it to me. He's. like it's terrible for like one. whole day you're going ever over every. horrible aspect of your life and it.

finds like the pathways in your brain. that created behavior afterwards and it. like gives you this like insanely. introspective slideshow of your life and. sort of lays out this is why you're an. addict. This is why you're a gambling. addict. This is why you're addicted to. ruining your life. Like these are the. things that happened to you when you. were young and these are the things that. you did when you were adult that you had. shame over and all these different. thing. These are the things that you've. seen that are horrific that have scarred. you. >> and it has like an 80% effective rate.

for people getting off drugs with one. session. And it's in the '9s with two. sessions. >> Wow. That is crazy high. >> Exactly. And it's legal here. Yeah. >> Well, it is now legal in Texas. Well, I. don't know what the regulations are, how. they're doing it, but at least they're. they're giving it to some people in. Texas. >> And I think, like I was saying, this is. a doorway for the right to understand. And I think this is a lot of the case. with a lot of these um special forces.

guys, a lot of SEALs and Green Berets. They come back from combat and they're. all up and some of their friends. take them on Iawaska journeys and that. helps them a lot. So that's another like. doorway into the right because people on. the right have always thought of. psychedelics as being for losers and. hippies and people just trying to escape. life. But just the sheer horror of. combat experience has forced a lot of. people to reconsider this position. And. then they've had so many family members. that are veterans and that are, you.

know, especially especially guys that. are like in the heart of combat and then. they come back and they they're just. up and no one wants to help them. Nobody can just talk you through it. And. the one thing that. >> I don't want to say universally, but a. high percentage have had great success. with is psychedelics. So I think it's. another massive disservice that those. are lumped in in the same illegal. category as fentinel. >> It's fentinel. I know. Or or meth. I.

know. Or meth. I agree. >> But do you think that the pathway is. legalization? Because like even decriminalization, where are you going to get it? You're. going to get See, here's the problem. with decriminalization. in California. Um my friend John. >> Norris, >> he was a game warden. And do you know. the story? Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So, John, for people who. don't know podcast Oh, he's great. >> So, John was a game warden, right? Loved. the outdoors, became a game warden. He.

really wanted to like check people's. fishing licenses and hunting licenses. and making sure the the land was taken. care of and making sure people aren't. littering or doing anything stupid. So, he gets this call that the stream is. blocked up. It's like the stream stopped. running and they can't figure out why. Maybe a farmer diverted water. They. follow the stream. They find these PVC. pipes that are rerouting it to this. massive marijuana farm that the cartel. owns. >> So when California made marijuana legal. in the state, what they also did is make.

it a misdemeanor to grow grow marijuana. illegally. So the cartels are like. great. Let's just start growing. Best. So, they're bringing AKs and. assault rifles out into the woods, setting up camps, super toxic pesticides, super toxic, like that's totally illegal in. modern farming in America. Like way. worse than glyphosate. And that's. somewhere in the neighborhood of 80. plus% of all the marijuana that gets. sold in the places where marijuana is.

illegal. It's all getting sold from. these grow ops in California by the. cartels. >> I've I've filmed some of them. I've been. there. I've been in those mountains in. California. >> It's so crazy. Seen that. It is insane. >> It's so crazy. It's also a side effect. of like what Colorado did. Colorado made. it legal. Great. But then they also. taxed it like 39%. >> And so most people like, look, it's. still cheap. I'll pay turn 39%. The. state gets the money. It's a net benefit. for everybody. But there's a lot of. people like us grow weed illegally and.

sell that since it's legal in the state, >> right? And because it's it's impossible. to get a license in California. When. they legalized it initially, it was they. made it so hard for people to actually. get their licenses and doing do it. legally that the actually black market. increased when they legalized it. >> California is brilliant with that. That's why they still haven't rebuilt a. single house in the Pacific Palisades. that burnt down. Not a single house nine. months later with some of the richest. people in California. Yeah, >> because nobody can get a nobody can get.

permits. >> They're trying to make it easier to. build. >> allegedly. How if you would have done. it? >> Have you had Gavin Newsome on your. >> No, he's been he's been taunting me. trying to get me to have him. >> Why? >> I don't know. Because he's interesting. People. >> You think he's interesting? >> He's interesting as like a sociology. experiment. Like if you if you're a. psychologist talk to everyone, I think. Do you know who I really love that you. interviewed recently? >> Who? >> James Telerico. He's great. Yeah, he's. great. He had great insight as to uh.

what's going on in Texas, too, where. these Christian fundamentalists who are. very, very wealthy are trying to turn. Texas into a theocracy. Like these guys. sound like full on nutters. >> And this is something that people have. to be really careful of when you become. aligned with one party or another party, right? if you become aligned with the. left like Jimmy Kimmel was like ignoring. he was like mocking the president for. saying that Antifa like Antifa is not. real. Antifa is not.

>> that's so crazy to say. I know it's a. Democrat talking point currently but. it's dangerous for you and for everybody. else to say cuz they are real. They're. real and they're anarchists who are. committed to overthrowing capitalism. They want to destroy the western. government. Like it's and a lot of them. are retards. A lot of them are just like. goofy kids that got lost in the system. and then they found like a gang like a. lot of gang members. Like that's the. same kind of thing. They get you find a.

community and all of a sudden these. people are yours and they're real and. also they're willing to fight for. something and there's like a lot of. passion involved in it. So it's kind of. exciting and then you also realize like. yeah corporate society is up. Yeah, United Healthcare. That is kind of. crazy that you spend all that money on. healthcare and you get nothing. and then when you do have something they. deny your claim like what is going on. and is is And so they don't know. where to turn and so they they get. involved with a bunch of people that are.

doing stupid and they light. Starbucks on fire, right? Or they, you. know, and but a lot of it's funded too. That's the other thing. The reality is a. lot of these uh you know. >> I don't know about the funding part of. it. So, I've I've organized spoken I've. spoken to Antifa. We did I've done. stories on uh. >> on militias was one of the stories we. did this last season. And it was. important for me when we did that story. I've been wanting to do there's rising. militias, rising threat of militias. everywhere in the world, but. particularly here in the United States.

And we also filmed in Brazil because. it's a real problem there. And we uh I. knew from the start that I didn't want. to just do right-wing militias, that it. was important to also do leftwing. militias. So, we spent time. >> with a group that operates on the. border, right-wing militia that operates. on the border and was basically trying. to catch uh illegal immigrants. And then. we also spent time at, you know, just a. few miles away from that group, there. was another group called the Black Cat. Rifle Group. Um, that is a leftwing.

militia. And it is to me what was so. scary was that they existed because of. the other side. Like they they Of course. they existed because the other side. exists, right? And none of them. understood that. that you know that that one was become. stronger the stronger the other become. and that this was all going to end not. well for any of us. And when I was. asking the Black Cat Rifle Group, you.

know, when I was asking them why they. have a militia, why are they training? I. mean, they were training with with guns. and and you know, they look if you look. at these guys, they actually look I. mean, especially the guys at the border, which were at the right-wing militia. groups. If if I was an immigrant. crossing the country illegally, and I. saw one of these guys, 100% would think. that this is the US Army or Border. Patrol, and and I would be terrified or. I'd hand myself in and then. >> But it's it's there, which by the way is.

not what that's the part that's not. legal. you're not you you can train with. your buddies, you can do all that, but. you can't pretend to be. >> and you can't look like you're part of. the the military or law enforcement when. you're not. >> And and these guys 100% look like they. were. Um I know I'm going to get a lot. of flack for this because every time we. talk about I talk about militias, um I. get flack for it. But. >> why? uh because because we are we're. living in the most divided uh era of our. time and there's a lot of people who you.

know. believe that militias are important and. think that it's important that they. exist. I I I find them incredibly. dangerous the existence of militias. outside or on the periphery of the of. the law. I find it incredibly dangerous. and and so when I was talking to the. right-wing group they said something. When I started talking to leftwing group. they were giving me the exact same. reasons. Yeah. I mean, it was the exact. same conversation but seen from the. other side, right? Yeah. So, I said. like, "Do you not This is exactly the. same thing the other guy said." And they.

were like, "Yeah, we're we're here. We. think in their their point was that and. they don't call themselves militias, by. the way, the the left-wing group, but. they and they didn't like the fact that. I called them militias, but they were. saying was that but this is basically a. group who trains for what they think is. go going to be an an incoming possible. civil war." We talked about civil war. with them. >> I know. and they said, "Look, minorities. in this country are under attack a lot. of times by these right-wing militias. Uh whether they are part of the LGBTQ. community or they're um you know um.

black or Hispanic, they're under attack. And it's our job to train to make sure. that we protect these people that are. the most vulnerable in our society. And. we have to arm up and train and be ready. to fight and go after the other people. um if we have to. They said they only. protect themselves. Um they only defend. themselves, right? But that's the exact. same thing that I. >> It is the exact same thing. That was my. point was that um like people like Jimmy. Kimmel talking about Antifa not existing.

like that's not good for anybody. No, they are they are real and they are. violent and then people on the right. that want to ignore these people that. are trying to turn Texas into theocracy. and put the Ten Commandments in every. school. The great thing about Torico is. that he went to seminary school. He's in. seminary right now. So, he's a very. religious person and he does not want. them to have the ten commandments in. schools. He's like, you should not this. is going to create less Christians. It's. going to have more resistance to. Christianity.

>> And really, >> yeah, religion has no place in. government. And also, why would you have. that up? But you don't have something. from Hinduism, something from Buddhism, something from is Islam, something from. Judaism. Like, you should. >> it should be all religions. If you're. going to have a religious class, that's. a different thing. But if you're going. to have a thing on the wall that. everybody pays attention to that you. have to look at every day because it's. the your commandments and it's. Christianity, well, then you're forcing. Christianity on people and that's very. unamerican. And I thought I think he's.

really right. And I think that's the. thing about being on a team is. that you feel like you have to defend. your team and ignore the horrible thing. that your team does. >> and then only pay attention to the bad. things the other team does. That's. crazy. Now you're doing the man's work. for the man and you get no benefit. Not. only do you get no benefit, but you. actually help society erode and become. more fractured. >> Yeah. And get to the place. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. We. need another Martin Luther King. You. know, we need someone who's like an.

adamant expressor of nonviolence as the. only option. And then we all need to. embrace that because there's too many. punch a Nazi people out there. There's. too many people out there that think you. could just go out and do violence. And I. get it. That sounds exciting. I'm a. revolutionary. Yeah, I get it. It's. exciting. It's the wrong way for human. beings. We're This is supposed to be. 2025, right? We are supposed to have. evolved to a point where we recognize. that violence is one of the worst things. that we ever have in our community in.

any way, shape, or form. Whether it's. police violence or whether it's gang. violence, any kind of violence is the. worst thing that we can do to each. other. We're supposed to be living. together in harmony. There's a way at. least to minimize that violence by never. having violent rhetoric, by never. encouraging violence. And we seem to. have lost that somewhere along the line. >> I agree. I mean, violence and hate, you. know, so much hate and talk about hate. and hating the other side and hating.

anyone that doesn't stand by what I. stand or what I believe in. It's just. >> Well, look what happened when Charlie. Kirk got murdered. People were literally. cheering and we found out about it. I. was doing a podcast with Charlie Sheen. and we went to the restroom and when we. were going to the restroom, Jamie told. us that Charlie Kirk got shot and he's. dead. And we came back and did the. podcast and I was like, "People are. going to celebrate this." And this is. what's terrifying to me. And I got a. message from a friend of mine who was. like, "Man, I think you're wrong. I.

think it's a bunch of bot counts that. are going to it's just to rile people. up." But it wasn't I I watched it I. watched a lot of it online. And I. watched it through famous people and. prominent people that were just. condoning his assassination if not. celebrating it by saying, you know, that. he put hateful rhetoric out there in the. world. But the way they'll counter. hateful rhetoric is love. You like you. have to you you you have to recognize. that these people are wrong. They're. coming from a wrong position and.

eloquently state the right position, which is what Martin Luther King Jr. did. >> Yeah. which is not what President Trump. said at the memorial of Charlie Kirkerk. >> What did he say? >> Well, >> oh, I hate my enemies. He loved his. enemies. Yeah. Yeah. I don't any of. that. I don't agree with him. >> I mean, particularly if you're the. president of the United States, you're. not you're not. >> Well, he's, you know, he's a nut. But. it's also the only way that that guy. survived what he did, what he went. through, what they tried to put him. through. You have to be a kind of a nut. They tried to put him in jail. They try. to make a fake Russia collusion thing.

they did for three years, a concerted. effort that was paid for by the Hillary. Clinton campaign that funded the steel. doss. You know, it was like nutty stuff. like tried to uh put him he got. convicted for 34 counts of felony that. none of them were a felony. It was. misdemeanor booking bookkeeping. errors because he was paying off a lady. he had sex with. Like you got to be a. nut to get through that and not have any. feeling about it at all and just brush. it off your shoulder. So yeah, he's he's. crazy.

>> I don't think that's because he's great. That's not why he's crazy. I think he's. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm. saying he is crazy. Period. And that's. how he got through all that. That's the. only kind of person that gets through. that and gets to where he is today. You. have to be kind of crazy. I don't agree. with any of that. Like hating my enemies. and going after my enemies. I know you. don't agree with immigration raids. either, which I've heard you talk about. on this podcast. And. >> listen, I think. >> I'm so h happy that you do talk about it. because I do think it's an incredibly. important issue. I mean,

>> it is an important it's one of those. right left things too, right? Where. people on the right are like, "Fuck it, turn them over.". >> No idea. Every time I posted about this. and I get so much hate also like I get. immediately people saying horrible. things about immigrants and saying. horrible things about me and I get. unfollowed immediately. Like people. don't like. >> The thing is they like do it the right. way. They're like, "Do it the right. way." Here's the problem with that. You. can't do it the right way if you live in. Mexico or you live in Guatemala and. you're walking here and you're getting. across the Rio Grand River. And here's. the other thing. For the last four years.

during the Biden administration, it was. well known throughout the world that the. borders were wide open. So an estimated. who knows what is the total number. Put. this into perplexity. >> That's our sponsor perplexity. Um what. does it say? How many people do they. estimate came in illegally over the past. four years during the Biden. administration? But it's millions and. millions of people, right? So people. knew that they can come across. Now. they're here because somebody invited. them, right? And then they were busted.

to these places and flown to these. places and they were given EBD cards and. some of them were given cell phones and. now you're going to arrest them. Now. you're going to like swoop in and. handcuff them and like this is. crazy. You asked me to be here. They. don't know it's the same goddamn. country. >> Okay. I have spent time on uh the trail. of immigrants. I was in the d in the. southern darian gap where a lot of the. immigrants were coming and I spoke to. dozens of people who were doing the. journey. And um maybe I just got lucky. or unlucky that I spoke to the majority.

of the people that I spoke to had, you. know, a lot of them were from Haiti, from Venezuela, places that are. completely torn up, >> no economic opportunities whatever. whatsoever. Violence, extreme violence. the these are the stories that I know. are happening and and I have a good. friend, his name is Jacob Soberof. He's. a reporter for MSNBC and he's been. covering immigration raids from the. beginning. And one of the stories he did. and it I love that I'm talking about. this because this has become really.

important for me. Um because I'm I live. in LA and I'm affected by this um on on. many levels. >> Also, you have an accent. Exactly. I'm I. am an immigrant so I know you might get. green card pull you over ask for your. papers. >> might actually. >> take away my citizenship um but uh this. one of the stories he covered and I. think exemplifies what's happening to me. right now is the Estella and Nori this. is a mother and a daughter from. Guatemala the daughter was born in. Guatemala with her mother and her mother.

was gang raped and the small town she's. from a small impoverished ch town in. rural Guatemala she was gang raped and. the next day and her daughter watched. her being gang raped and she was f. violently beaten up. She had blood all. over her face. They broke her bones. It. was horrible with her daughter who was. young at the time watching. And the next. day she decided she had family members. in the US and she decided this is it. I. can't live here and I have to take my. daughter to a place that's safer. Her. daughter was traumatized by the way by. now. Took they came they came to the US.

um they immediately went and asked for. asylum which by the way most people. don't know this but it is completely. legal to become to come to the United. States whatever way you enter even if. you enter illegally it is legal to come. to the US and ask for asylum that is not. coming to the US entering without papers. and then asking for asylum is legal so. even when people say yes but do it you. can't do it illegally you're wrong it is. legal to do so coming in with no papers. and asking for. >> any requirements to uh.

>> persecution. You have to you have to be. a victim of persecution. Whether it's, you know, uh uh um cartels, >> yeah, violence, uh rape, uh um political. what are the five things? It's like. Jamie, can you look this up? It's. political, uh religious, um political, religious. There's like. five reasons why people can be um. persecuted. And um so they came to the. US, they immediately started applying.

for asylum. And there's 11 million cases. backlogged right now of people asking. for asylum. Race, >> race, religion, nationality, >> political opinion, >> membership in a particular social group. >> Yeah. >> So just those five things. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. So political persecution. also involves imprisonment, torture or. threats of violence. >> Huh? >> The answer to that question.

>> Yeah. How what's the numbers? >> Uh 10.8 million. >> This is encounter. It says encounters. though where they crossed and were. stopped. >> But this also goes on. >> According to the Trump administration's. Well, let me say this. According to. someone I spoke to at the Trump. administration, they said they they. believe it's 20 million over four years. Oh, I don't think that's done. I think. that number is highly exaggerated. >> Well, this says um in addition to these. uh apprehens apprehensions and.

encounters, officials reported an. estimated 2 million gotaways, individuals who were detected crossing. the border illegally but evaded capture. Combining these figures suggest roughly. 12.8 million total unauthorized border. crossings or attempts during the Biden. administration. So, not 20, but 12.8. That's still quite a bit. Here's another. thing that people keep talking about is. how many people um Obama deported, but I. think that's not. >> I think they're saying it incorrectly. cuz I think when they say that Obama.

deported 3 million people, they always. use this like as an aha against Trump. deportations. I believe Obama's. deportation numbers count turnaways like. when someone makes it to the border and. then you send them back. >> Very different. >> Yeah. I mean, he was nickname running. into Home Depot, right? >> And grabbing people like with a mask. over your face, like what we're seeing. with ICE, >> or worse than that, like even worse than. going to the Home Depot is the case of. Estell and Nori where they were going to.

check in on their procedures at the. courthouse. And when they went to check. on how their asylum case was going, they. were detained. They had been living here. for several years. The daughter is now. is a star athlete, >> uh, amazing student. But wait, even. worse. So they are deported back to. Guatemala. Taken. Like their family. didn't even know they were where they. were. They were taken. They took away. her medication. She had high blood. pressure. The the mother high blood. pressure. They got to Guatemala. They. don't know. They haven't lived there in.

decades. They have no idea where what to. do. They have no money in their pocket. They can't they don't have access to the. medication. So the mother dies. >> and the daughter is stays in Guatemala. And there's footage of her holding the. coffin until it's buried and her wanting. to be with her mother. And these are the. stories. I mean, if even if this just. happened with one person, we should be. asking if this is the right thing to do. But this is happening to, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people all. across the country. And this is not all. right. I mean, this is not all right. We.

should not be doing this. >> Yeah. Especially if someone's already. been granted asylum. Like there should. be. >> So their their asylum procedure was. ongoing. They hadn't been granted yet. But that is. >> you can't do you can't remove somebody. whose ongoing procedure asylum. procedure. And plus that's not. >> meaning meaning she was trying to do it. the right way. >> Yes. Absolutely. And and that's not what. we were sold. Right. Right. A lot of. people voted for Trump because they. thought that he was going to go after. the criminals. >> Well, I think very unfortunately a lot. of this stuff is political and um and.

then the fear is the both sides fear, right? So, I don't know if you know. this, but Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz, who was running for vice president, he. just passed uh. >> You also had him on, right? >> No. No, I did not. Uh I he they just passed something in. Minnesota where illegal immigrants are. allowed to have driver's licenses and. vote, which is kind of crazy. Um because. >> Are you sure? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. just yesterday. We'll put.

it. >> illegal immigrants as in as in a green. card. >> as in not supposed to be here driver's. licenses and can vote. >> Let's find out. This is the story that I. read. >> Jamie, find out. >> I read this story and he was proudly. talking about I know. Sounds crazy, right? >> It sounds crazy. Yeah, because I became. a citizen so I could vote and it took me. a long time to get. >> Oh, yeah. No, I know a lot of friends. who became American citizens and it's it. was a long grueling process and they had.

to prove that they were exceptional that. there was a reason for them to be here. A lot of them were comedians and. entertainers and. >> I'm not seeing that. >> What is it? >> I don't know. >> What are the facts of the case? >> I typed in Tim Walls passed illegal. immigrant vote and. >> it was all over Twitter. Twitter has not. passed a bill. >> Okay. Um, driver's licenses. >> That was something that happened in. 2023, it said. >> Yeah, but there was something that just. happened a couple of days ago. >> I.

>> find it find it. >> Yeah, I'll find it. >> I'll check on Twitter. I. >> I I have to say I find it very hard to. believe that. >> Me, too. But no, but not because I think. that what I was getting at is a lot of. the reason for wanting an open border is. congressional seats because one of the. things about when you do a census, it. doesn't count how many people are. citizens. It counts how many people and.

so you can get extra congressional seats. if you have more illegal immigrants in. your city and you have much more. political power that way. >> But why do you get more seats if you. they can't vote? >> It's just how it works. It's just how. the set it's the the way our census is. set up. So the way a census is set up, it's just counting people. It's not. counting people that are legally here. >> The census. Okay. >> So the census is how they dictate the. amount of congressional seats. >> Here's what was going around Twitter. >> Okay. Minnesota elections confirms. non-citizens can vote with driver's. licenses. October 1425. This is it. Uh.

state hearing. Minnesota Director. Elections Paul Lenel testified that. non-citizens holding driver's licenses. under the 2023 driver's licenses for all. law can register to vote and cast. ballots by affirming eligibility as the. ID verifies identity but not. citizenship. uh Secretary of State Steve Simone Steve. Simon noted that such voting is illegal. and rare with post-election adults.

identifying discrepancies for. prosecution, including 59 just 59. potential cases in 2024 that they. um the testimony has prompted Republican. demands for voter role audits and. reforms conc uh coinciding with federal. lawsuit against Minnesota for incomplete. registration data. So, at the very. least, this is opening up the door for. people that are non-citizens to vote. And it seems like they're confirming. that non-citizens with this driver's. license can vote. Um,

>> that that it can be that it can be. consequence of it. It's not that's not. the goal. >> But but it's also not the goal. It's the. it's a consequence that can happen. >> It is a consequence of it, >> but I don't think it's purposely done. I. mean, I think that it's trying to make. it easier for people to vote. And. unfortunately, it's a little bit like. the rehab scam, right? You're trying to. make it easier for Native Americans to. get health insurance, but guess what? Then there's people who are going to. abuse that that that that opportunity or. that that. >> most certainly. >> And that's what's happen that seems like.

what's happening. >> That's a very charitable way of looking. at it. >> Maybe, but I don't It says that they. they can register to vote, but the next. line says that the voting is illegal. >> Yeah, it's illegal, but they can. register, but they they could do it if. they wanted to. Either way, I I think. what is happening is that immigrants are. being used as political pawns, right? As. we know, from both sides, by the way, both sides. >> 100%. We both agree with that. >> And and these are human beings like the. mother and like so many of these stories. like the father of the three military.

American so guys went and served for our. country and the father was deported. These are, you know, horrible stories of. human beings and a lot of times the. people that are traumatized are American. citizens. They are the kids. They're. pulling away their family members, their. mothers, their fathers, and it's. American kids who are being traumatized. >> It's also heartless. >> And you're showing to the world that you. don't care, that you just want to. achieve a result, and you want to. achieve a result that is going to. >> leave a a terrible feeling for anybody.

with a heart that that looks at that. story in that case. And then then. they're going to associate the United. States government more and more with. tyranny, more and more with fascism, more and more with, >> you know, you you think you're just. enforcing a law because these people. broke a law. But that there's there's. still human beings that have been a part. of these communities. The law is just. some people wrote down. It should. make sense and there should be. exemptions or at least some sort of. amnesty. >> for someone who's been here. >> Oh, that too. But there is a pathway.

>> Yeah. And a pathway. And right now there. isn't. Right? Because these people are. probably not paying taxes. And if you. could make them citizens, how much more. money you would make, >> right? But they do pay taxes, you know. >> Sure. For buying things in taxes or for. income tax? >> For income. They actually pay income. taxes, >> right? Do they file for income taxes or. they get income taxes removed from their. paycheck? >> Can you check that out, Jamie? I read. about this recently because it's. something that so many people It's often. used by the right how these people are. here and they don't pay taxes. That is. actually not. It's millions of dollars a.

year that undocumented immigrants pay. >> I'm most I'm sure. >> not only in sales but also in income. taxes and both with the fake social. security numbers they get. But also I. think there's something that I. >> Well, you probably have to have that for. certain jobs, right? Fake social. security. >> Fake social security numbers. But I. think there's a way also that they. figured out that people are here while. they're going through asylum procedures. or trying to get their green card that. they. >> But there's still a lot of people that. are from 2016 says 11.6 six billion. >> billion dollars in state. >> collectively undocumented inter so.

I I would imagine though that that's. like at the very least less than there. would be if everybody was totally above. board. >> you know what I mean. >> oh yeah I'm 100% we could be making so. much more money and I mean they're the. back let's not who are we kidding oursel. I mean they are the backbone of our. economy particularly in California where. I live there would be no construction. there would be no agriculture there. would be no, you know, uh um kitchens.

and and restaurants and hospitality. services without the these immigrants. >> Undocumented immigrants paid nearly 97. billion in federal, state, and local. taxes in 2022. >> So, the idea that they don't pay taxes. are. >> It's a lot of money. >> Um and that's money that now you have to. account for because those people are. going to get kicked out. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. and and. >> but meanwhile if they had figured out a. pathway to citizenship I bet that number. would increase. >> you know and also they could get. different jobs. >> you know they wouldn't be stuck.

economically because that's the the. weird thing about people that sneak like. when these farms get raided and they. bust all these people the farm doesn't. get busted like hey I know. >> what are you doing. >> and how much will you paying them like. are should you go to jail for paying. them less than you're supposed to pay. people. >> because that's the reason why you hire. people that don't have any paperwork. >> Yeah. Cuz you want to pay them less. >> One guy is a horrible person. I heard. they he did a job and then when the job. was over, he called ICE on the people so. he didn't have to pay them. Might not be.

real though. Might be a TikTok. Might be. a little They might They might have got. me. Might be trying to try to set us up. to yell at each other cuz that's a lot. that's going on too. >> But yeah, it's it's heartless. And. that's that's uh and if you're supposed. to be a Christian nation, right, which. is like what the hardline right people. want. Well, that's not a very Christian. ideal. Well, they broke the law, right? I get it. They're families, right? You. would you would have broke the law, too. But and by the way, most of those people. are deeply religious. A lot of those. people that are coming from South.

America, deeply religious from Central. America, deeply religious people. >> Deeply religious. >> They they'd be on your side if they had. a chance. You know, those are like. hardworking family people. They'd be the. kind of people you want in your. community for the most part. But there. have to be a way to sift out. You you. have to figure out, okay, who's the. cartel members? Who's who's a terrorist? And. >> I don't believe an open border. >> But I do believe that once people are. here and they've completely integrated. into society, it seems pretty foolish to.

just snatch them up and send them to. countries that they don't even know. anymore. How about this guy in Maryland. that this Abrago Garcia guy that they. keep they're trying to send him to. Africa. >> Oh my god, it's insane. >> Three countries in Africa said no. >> But one said yes, right? >> Oh, I don't know. Have they Are they. going to send him to Africa? >> Was it Ghana who said yes? >> You just got toile. >> Oh, they failed. Okay, good. >> Why are they sending him to Africa? He's.

not from Africa. It's like, guys, >> that's crazy. >> Yeah. I I'm happy you use your platform. to talk about this because I I rarely do. I get an issue that I'm like this. passionate about and that I see so much. injustice that I feel like I need I need. to talk about this. >> There's no heart to you have to have a. heart. You have to like you have to like. the law should be to serve and protect, right? This is this is the whole reason. why we should have law enforcement, right? So in this situation, what are.

you protecting? Are you protecting. American jobs? Do you want to go pick. strawberries? Like these people are like. coming here because this is a way better. option than where they live. Wouldn't it. be better if those people were doing. that work and making a livable wage? And. wouldn't it be better if these greedy. corporations weren't just able to hire. illegal people and pay them under the. table a tiny amount of what they really. should be getting as a normal human. being? >> Absolutely. For all of us better for all. of us. just you're taking advantage of.

these people and once they're here, >> look, if you're here and you've been. robbing people and say, "Yeah, that. guy. Get rid of them." Like, get rid of. all the parasites and all the criminals. and all the predators that are. destroying people's lives, all the. people robbing people. >> Everybody wants that. But after that, you got to figure out a way to like. otherwise we're just going to have this. stupid divided country with left and. right. >> And these people will never vote. Republican again. Any this which is. really interesting because a lot of.

Hispanics and a lot of like Latino. people. >> are religious and there's a lot of the. things that the Republicans talk about. that they would align with. Like Cubans, for example. Cubans are hardliner. right-wing people. >> They don't around. They're very. disciplined. They know what communism. looks like. you. They They're not. They don't tolerate no nonsense in. Miami, you know? It's like, and that. could have been the Republicans could. have captured a lot of those people that. are deeply religious. Like, that's one.

of your core values. >> is you think it's a Christian nation, >> right? >> It's just you got to figure out how to. do it with a heart. >> I know. You got you can't just snatch a. a hardworking father away from his. children that he brought over here from. another country just cuz he wants them. to be able to live and not get killed in. the streets, >> right? >> He wants to be able to make a living. And this guy probably works 14 hours a. day, sees them, kisses them on. the head before he goes to sleep, crashes, gets up in the morning, and. does it again. That's right. >> Like that's what you want in this. country, >> right? Of course.

>> It's like you got to you got to find the. pathway for good people. And like you. can't tell me don't we don't have enough. resources for that cuz you see about the. amount of money that goes through USA or. went through US A. The amount of money. that goes to weapons. manufacturers you you we don't have. enough money to sort out who's a good. person and who's a bad person and find. some sort of a pathway. I'm not saying. keep the border open, but the people. that are here, let's root out the. terrorists. Let's figure out. who's the bad people. that some.

definitely bad people got through after. that. Let's, you know, let's. break bread. >> Let's break bread. >> 100%. I agree with you 100%. >> Let's We're supposed to be a community. >> Yeah. >> If you come over here and you bust ass. for 25 years and you're a part. of the the American community and then. all of a sudden you don't have the right. paperwork. So, they're going to send you. a country that you don't even remember. cuz you know, you came over here when. you're 15. like you barely know how to.

speak Spanish anymore. Like what? >> Yeah, I know. It's absolutely I mean. it's Yeah, it's I' I've been reporting. on these issues for so long. It's it's. truly I mean it's why I came to America, why so many people come to America. It's. because this is what this country stands. for. It's like it's welcoming to. immigrants and that's immigrants make. America great. I mean. >> Ed Caldron was telling us a story about. a young man who came over here when he. was a baby. His family brought him over. here when he was a baby. So, he doesn't. have any paperwork and uh he was in his. 20s. They snatched him up and sent him.

to Mexico and he doesn't even speak. Spanish. >> and Yeah. >> And he's like, "Fuck you. You're not. American. Now you're over there. >> Snatch him just and during these these. raid some sort of an ice raid. They. grabbed him and sent him to Tijana.". >> Right. >> Right. It's. >> He doesn't even speak Spanish. >> It's insane. It's. >> He's a fullon American just with bad. paperwork. >> Yeah. It's crazy. It's. >> Yeah. And the only difference between. him and me is that I, you know, my. parents were born here. Yeah. I happen.

to be born here. I got lucky. >> It's like I'm not saying you should have. the border open cuz you shouldn't. Every. country should be checked because. there's threats in the world. And also. there's a lot of people mad at us. because we've done some up things. all over the world. And that's the the. dark part of all this mass migration in. both Europe and in America. It's like, why are these people fleeing where they. were? Well, because. >> we up their country the out. of it. >> We destabilized their government. Yeah. >> Absolutely. I mean, not not all. It's.

not all about Libya. There's a lot of. them. >> The money that we're using in trying in. these raids, like let's figure out how. to stem the the immigration. Let's try. to figure out how to, you know, stop the. consumption of drugs so that there's. less violence in those countries. Stop. the flow of guns so there's less. killings and gangs. You know, it's it's. like it's a a cycle of destruction that. we're enabling them and and then we go. and catch them and bring. >> it all really started with moving. manufacturing overseas as well. Once we.

took all the manufacturing out of. America and then we moved manufacturing. overseas or over to other countries. across national lines. Now all of a. sudden you can get things made way. cheaper. But then you create all this. poverty and then what happens with. poverty? People fall into drugs because. they have massive despair, >> you know, and then the pharmacy drug. Well, you brilliantly documented with. that with the Oxycontton Express that. that piece. was how I found out about you, but also. how I found out about that problem, which was so insane where you could tell.

people if they they're not aware of how. it all started. >> Yeah. It's interesting because I just. had the FBI agent that investigated that. that case on my podcast. >> Oh, wow. Fascinating. >> Okay. So, I found out that uh reading. the newspaper, my husband and I were. working together at the time and we. found out that there were all these. people who were going to Florida just to. buy pills. So, there was these pain. clinics, these pill mills as they were. called. Um, and they were distributing.

the numbers were crazy. 90 of the top. 100 uh doctors prescrib prescribing. Oxycottton were in Florida. 90 of the. 100. It's insane. >> What are the. that statistic 50 states. >> I know it's insane. >> And and this is the sad part is it's not. as if like these pharmaceutical. companies or the distribution companies. didn't know this was happening. They. did. They just pretended that they. didn't because it was g it was huge. business and it was great. And why.

Florida? Because they had really lacks. regulation. So you could go doctor. shopping. You could go I went. undercover. So that was part of the. story that we did Oxycottton Express. where I went undercover into one of. these pain clinics and I asked the. receptionist. Um I said I have a little. bit of a back pain. Uh what do I need to. do if I want to get some pills? And she. said what would you like and we can give. you oxycottton? We can give you some. benzo. We can give you what's called the. South Florida cocktail which was. essentially muscle relaxants, benzo and.

oxycottton. >> That's how she was describing it. >> She didn't say it but that's what it. became known as is the South Florida. cocktail. She said, "We can give you. this, this, and this." It's the holy. trinity trin trinity, right? And all you. need to do is you go to the back of the. clinic and there's a place there where. you can get an MRI and then you come. back to us. And an MRI is a ridiculous. thing because you can read anything into. an MRI like any all of us have backs. have a spine and whatever comes out. results in the memory that you the. doctor can pretend to look at it and. say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I can see why.

you're having back pain or neck pain and. I'm going to give you this." But the. problem is that the doctors weren't even. looking at the MRIs. That was just fake. They were just, you know, in case. somebody ever came after them, they. could say that they had MRIs. They were. seeing people in less than three minutes. and saying they were doing all these. less than three minutes. So you'd have a. patient come in and then these amazing. entrepreneurial twin brothers called the. George brothers uh built this business. It was called American Pain. They. basically built a business out of two or.

three paint. >> Sounds like a movie. American Pain. So. my husband did a documentary about it. about the rise and fall of these twin. brothers. They started by selling stero. steroids and then somebody told him like. dude why are you doing what are you. doing selling selling steroids or you. could make making so much more money. selling oxy. It's called American Pain. You should watch it. It's on HBO. >> It's so good. >> I think actually I've heard of it now. now that you mentioned it. >> It's really good. So we we reported. Oxycottton together. And because we were. chased down I95 by these goons, by these.

two brothers, by these twins, um Darren. became obsessed with them and then. contacted them in prison. Okay, so it's. a really funny story. I'm going to tell. the story. So we find out that these. were the biggest operators. Five of the. top 20 prescribers in the whole country. were doctors working for the George. brothers. They were was millions of. pills they were not only prescribing but. selling out of their pain clinics. They. were making millions of dollars. I mean, so much so that they were stashing it in. bags and putting it in the attic, their.

mother's house's attic and stuff. There. was like insane amounts of money. And. people would come in from all over the. country, mainly from Appalachia, and. they would come in, drive down, and they. would get to these clinics and they. would say, "I want, you know, see a. doctor for less than three minutes." The. doctor had a rubber stamp to stamp the. prescription to make it fast. So they'd. see you three minutes. Okay, next one. And stamp it. There were people passing. out in these pain clinics on in the. lobby. people passing out outside. So. when I went inside the the talked to the. receptionist and then I went outside and.

I bummed a cigarette out of somebody and. I explained, "Hey," I pretended I had. secret cameras. They didn't know I was. filming. And I started saying, "What are. you what are you doing with here?" He's. like, "Oh yeah, I came from Kentucky and. uh I this is one of the best clinics. I. can get all my pills here." And then I. go back and you know, we sell them and. we can still use the pills we want. It's. feeding our addiction. And we go out and. we sell them for 10 times what we're. paying here. >> Wow. >> And so it's a big business. and and so. >> and the no database, right? So you. >> And no database. Yeah. So you could go. to several different doctors, doctor. shopping. So we're outside this this.

American Pain Pain Clinic, which we knew. at the time. They had security guards. outside, surveillance cameras. So we. knew they were like shady. Uh and but we. also knew that they were the biggest. operators in town. So we wanted to film. outside. And it was our last day in. Florida. We kept it to the last day for. safety reasons. And we're outside and. it's me and my husband. He's filming it. And suddenly within minutes a car comes. across and these two guy big guys start.

yelling at us and threatening us. So we. get back in the car and we're saying no. we're just filming. This is public. property. We can film. It's like get the. out of here. What are you guys. filming? We get in the car. We leave. They start chasing us down I 985. and I am running out of gas and I stop. at a gas station and the night before. I'd watch the Sopranos, which is the. wrong thing to do. So the whole time I'm. imagining it's straight a scene out of. the Sopranos, right? They stop right. behind us as we stop for gas and they. come out of the car again. I was like,

"Holy shit." Get back in the car, drive. out, they continue chasing us, and then. we run out of gas right out on the. highway and we stop the car and decide. I'm calling 911, by the way. And uh I. called an a a sheriff's department. person that I interviewed the day before. and I told her what was happening and. she said, "Call 911 immediately. These. are not people you want to be messing. with." So I called 911 and eventually I. stopped on the side of the road. They. stopped next to us because they're. dumbfounded. They're like, "What the.

Why did they stop? They have no. idea that we ran out of gas." And then. the police comes up and they ask them. some questions and they came up with. this silly excuse and they let them go. And a few months later they were taken. down by this massive FBI investigation. that was happening at the same time. So. I interviewed the guy Curt McKenzie who. was the investigator that knew of us at. the time. They re he realized, oh my. god, there's like these crazy. journalists that are doing this story. and at the same time as they were and we. were actively trying to get them to talk.

to us, the FBI, and they couldn't. because they had an active. investigation. Um, but they actually. tapped in and American Pain, my. husband's film, is all about that. They. tap they did taps, rioter taps on all of. these guys. So they know everything how. they were how they how they knew there. were people dying, >> people oding just outside their clinic. and how they were just kept going. And. the doctors themselves as well. They. were dirty dirty horrible doctors that. knew there were people dying and they. couldn't give a because they were. making millions of dollars.

>> They also I think something happens when. you see a bunch of people die. There's a. lot of doctors that uh I think it they. get very callous to the idea of death. and especially if the idea not not good. doctors there's great doctors out there. obviously but there's. >> sociopaths that become doctors and. become even more sociopathic once they. realize they can make money off of it. >> and that that whole Florida pain pill. scene was a classic example of that. because there's only one way you would.

have a system like this. You'd have a. system like this if you want it to be. corrupt. I mean, it's just designed to. be corrupt. >> Designed to be corrupt. I mean, how is. it possible that you can go I remember. I'll never forget interviewing the. mother of a kid who had just died and. then a few months later her other kid. died. So, she had two sons and she lost. both of them to this. >> and it was all because of the pain. clinics and she was showing me the. painkiller. bottles, the prescription bottles that. the kid got. It was in it was like. hundreds and hundreds of pain pills that.

the kid got from just doctor shopping. >> They were just selling them. And the. fact that you could doctor shop the only. reason why you would have that like it's. not difficult to have a database. I mean. this was like 200 what when this was. going on. What year? >> 2008 2009 that's when we did our story. >> Plenty of computers the internet was. around like this could all be prevented. >> I know everybody was just making so much. money. The doctors, the pain clinics, the distributors, the pharmaceutical. companies. >> I mean. >> and the Sackler family. the Sackler. family. >> Now, I know that after Peter Berg's. Netflix series, Painkiller came out that.

they put a halt on because they were. supposed to pay an enormous settlement. like six billion. Not really enormous. compared to their property. Exactly. I. was about to say, >> but it was going to supposedly keep them. out of jail. And I think there was a. judge that put a halt on that. >> and they started another investigation. >> What happened was that they the. settlement uh they had agreed to to to. settle as long as they were never found. the family itself was never found liable. again. Right. >> Which is up. >> Yeah. You can't do that. You're. literally buying your way out of jail. when you might be responsible for the.

death of hundreds of thousands of. people. >> And and and and I mean it's been it's. been a million people who have died in. the past uh 20 something years from the. opiate crisis. It's crazy. I don't think. people realize. >> And this this family thinks they're. going to be able to buy their way out of. being responsible for maybe a million. people dead. >> with a drop in the bucket. I mean, they're not directly, you know, guilty of all those deaths, but they created the problem of the. opiate crisis, the biggest drug epidemic.

in America's history, and they're paying. buying their way out with a, you know, profit of the a drop in the bucket of. the profit. >> compared to what they have. Yeah. They're not even going to feel it. It's. $6 billion. >> It's crazy. >> It's so evil. >> Yeah. >> It's just so evil. >> Yeah. >> They track down the guy who approved it. for the FDA. Do you know that? >> No. He was living in a small town in New. Hampshire and uh apparently they had. taken this guy would not approve it and. then they got him in a hotel for a. weekend.

>> and the pharmaceutical drug companies. and no one knows what happened in the. hotel. No one knows what they did what. kind of deal they made or what happened. but when they got out he approved it. >> He approved what? >> He approved Oxycontton. >> from just. >> the original. of Do you think he was bribed to do. that? I don't think he did it because he's a. nice guy. I mean, I don't know what. >> but Oxycottton has its place like for. terminally ill cancer patients, for. people dealing with a lot of pain.

There's. >> a reason why people that it should be. available for those in need. >> But that's not how they were selling. >> No, they were not. And in fact, the ads. at the time from Purdue Pharma was that. less than 1% of people would become. addicted from this. >> Yes. >> That literally that was the number they. gave. Less than 1% of addiction rates. from this. >> You know what we found out the other. day? Heroin was created uh to help. people who had morphine addiction. >> Huh. To try to wean them. >> nuts. There was it was offered as a safe. alternative. >> to morphine. >> Huh. >> Wow. I didn't know that.

>> Yeah. I didn't know that either. Is that. cookookie? >> It's great. >> So, it's like we've been doing that. forever. >> Well, I've got something better for you. It's called Oxycottton. By the way, only. 1% of the people get added to it. >> And then it was fentinyl, too. >> Yeah. You know we we when we. investigated fentinil they started it. started as a drug for termally ill. cancer patients and we went after this. one company called subps where the guy. the the head of that company called John. Kapoor was the first and I believe only. until this day head of a pharmaceutical.

company to be charged and go to jail and. we had a whistleblower in our. investigation. This was before he was. arrested and found out and charged. We. had a whistleblower telling us that the. company Incys Pharmaceuticals substance. was the thing. Incis pharmaceutical was. the name of the company that they were. doing exactly the same that Perurdue. Pharma did back in the day which was. they in their case they were actually. bribing doctors. They were taking these. doctors all to like travel experiences. around the world and paying them to. prescribe their medication. So you'd. call and and you'd go to the doctor and.

say, "I have a headache." Oh, you should. be taking subps. It's a great fentinil. to fentinyl. It's going to cure your. your your headache. Imagine. And then. the people at the company hired by. INSEAS, they had their insurance. department would call insurance and say, "Oh, this person um you need to approve. this medication for this person because. they have cancer. They were lying to. insurance because it was only approved, insurance would only pay." And these. were very expensive drugs if it was for. cancer patients. So, they would lie. And.

this so this whistleblower basically. opened up the Pandora's box and told us. all about this and then there was a big. investigation into it and it was the. first and only I believe pharmaceutical. company owner that ever went to prism. for it. >> Wow. >> But it was the same playbook. It's. crazy. So it's like it keeps repeating. itself. >> Well, it's just evil, right? It's just. evil finds a way to manifest itself. through any business if you got people. that are incentivized by money rather. than doing the right thing. >> Yeah. And evil finds a way to go,

listen, we can just fudge the books. Listen, we can form a study and make. this study seem as if it's a victim. By. the time they get it, >> right? >> By the time they figured out, we made a. lot of money, >> right? >> And that's the playbook. I mean, that's. how they got vio through. It's like. clear email evidence that they knew it. was going to cause serious health. problems with people that took it. But. the the I believe the exact quote was, "But we believe we will do very well. with this.".

>> It's crazy. It's. >> evil. It's evil. >> It's evil. And they're detached from it. because they're not like seeing the pe. person die in front of them. They're not. seeing some child trying to wake their. father up and realizing their father is. cold and dead because he had an overdose. in the middle of the night and no one's. taking them to school cuz their dad's. dead, >> you know? Like they don't they don't see. any of that. They're they're, you know, sipping scotch in some country. club somewhere and driving around in a. Mercedes and they're just looking at the. amount of numbers that they made from. that, >> right? Yeah. >> It's evil. >> It's evil. I remember interviewing a.

woman. We did a story about fake. pharmaceuticals and why I think it's 20. million Americans that can't afford. their pharmaceuticals. So, they go to. places like Mexico and online to Indian. pharmaceutical companies or fake and buy. medication that sometimes works but a. lot of times is counterfeit and is bad. and actually can kill you. And I. remember interviewing the sort of the. head of this big lobby, one of the. biggest DC lobby groups for. pharmaceutical companies and asking her. and she was very happy to be on the show. because we were talking about. counterfeit, right? And she thought she.

was going to be able to just talk about. how bad counterfeit medications are and. how important it is it to buy the real. medications from realies. And I was. asking her, "But but what does it say. about the pharmaceutical companies and. the health care system in this country. when 20 million Americans can't afford. their life-saving medications? What do. you think that says?" And she says, "Oh, I don't you know, I uh the med. medications the these they're too. expensive. We have to figure out a way. to bring prices down." And you know,

they always say that it's not for. profit. It's for research and. development, which is because a. lot of it there is used for marketing. and a lot of is is used for it's profit, right? It's they're making ton. of money out of it. >> They make so much money. >> And and I and I asked her, "Have you. ever actually spent time with anyone. who's struggling to buy their. medications? As the head of this. pharmaceutical lobby, have you spent. time with any of these people?" She's. like, "No." Like straight out, no. It's. like. >> how can you how can you represent the. pharmaceutical companies know that one.

of the biggest problems we have in this. country is that people cannot afford. these medications and not have spent one. single minute with a person who has a. hard time affording these medications. Right. >> That seems able to. >> it's but it's that disconnect that. you're talking about, right? It's not. actually understanding the problem or. wanting to know the people that are. being affected by these problems. >> Yeah. And they're the medications are so. expensive. Some medications are so. ridiculously expensive and you realize.

like they're not they don't have to be. that expensive. This is just a a company. making massive amounts of profit. >> and paying their CEOs millions of. dollars. And. >> they could stop a lot of that if they. cut that revolving door out. If. they made it so that if you work for the. FDA, you can't just hop over to Eli Liy. like right away after you leave. Like. you have to wait 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Say that like, "Okay, you want a career. some way? you cannot profit at all from. the pharmaceutical drug industry for 10. years after you're done being a.

regulator. >> I I agree with you and I know that it's. a huge conflict of interest and we've. seen how bad that can be and prejudic. how bad it could be. But I also um I try. to put myself if that I've spent my. whole entire career um you know with. ambition and trying to do good and then. I end up at the FDA and I have a chance. to do something good and then I yeah. whatever happens I lose my job or I. >> you're in the vampire machine and you. realize like oh this whole system's. Let me just hop on over to. Galaxos Smith.

I want to get a house in the suburbs. >> I know. I know. But I I try to see with. it see look at it through other eyes and. see like okay we have to figure out what. these people are going to do because. what do you do after if you can't work. for 10 years this is what they've lived. all their lives working in right. >> sort of but I think it's incentivized I. think that they're they are making laws. and pushing things. >> specifically at the behest of the. pharmaceutical drug industry knowing. that there's a golden parachute awaiting. them. >> right but I don't think all of them I.

think a lot of people and I've. interviewed the head of the the the. the. CDC the. it was a while back we did a story about. um anyway I've interviewed some of these. government officials uh that work at the. FDA. and um I don't think all of them no work. are there with better. >> no no no but a lot of the ones that do. know it's available and the shocking. number of people that leave those. positions of being a regulator and go.

over to work for the pharmaceutical drug. I mean that's a kind of crazy conflict. of interest. >> Yeah, it is. >> You've been passing laws and and winking. at people and shaking hands and playing. golf with them and then you make it easy. for them and then all a sudden you work. for them and you're making a million and. a half a year. >> Yeah. Of course it is. >> A lot of people like that. >> Yeah. >> And that's why it's a dirty ass. business. And then you got a dirty ass. business because they sponsor all the. news. >> like brought to you by Fizer. Anderson.

Cooper brought to you by. >> Fizer bananas in this country. It's so. crazy. It only exists in America. You. know, >> was talking about this and said the. issue is not that this way more people. will buy their drugs. The issue is now. the media won't criticize their drugs. >> Oh, because they need it. Oh my god. Yeah. >> They've financially invested in these. companies. They're partners basically, right? >> Without the pharmaceutical drug. companies, I think cable news would be. in deep Well, as a member of the. media, I've never had that problem. I.

have never had and I've investigated, as. you know, from companies before. >> I've never had my boss tell me I can't, >> of course. But you look at the kind of. stuff you do. You know, you're you're. you're doing the real stuff. Like you're. boots on the ground in the scariest. parts of the world. You're doing a. different thing. You're a real. journalist and I really appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> And um that's you're not you're not. getting that on TV for the most part. you know, it's only has to be on a show. like yours, but like on TV news, you're.

you're not getting that kind of I mean, not that kind of investigative. journalism that you do as applied to. everything, but there's a lot of. conflicts of interest. Yeah. >> There's a lot of people that don't want. you investigating certain things, you. know, don't want you investigate waste. and fraud and government and. >> and that's the role of journalism. Yeah. I mean, people in power have a hard time. with the truth. >> Exactly. >> And their job is to go out and. >> Exactly. Which I know. which is why, you. know, it's so troublesome that we live. at a time where people don't believe in. journalists and and think that all. journalists are either fake or they're.

lying. And that's a real problem because. it's a real problem for all of us. >> I think it is. But the one solution to. that um I think is a mainstream. journalism has to change its way. They. you you can't just be working as a. propaganda arm for the Republican or the. Democratic party, which is what Fox News. does and which is what, you know, MSNBC. does. >> They they work there, they they stick. within the lines, right? And you also, it opens the door for independent.

journalists, which I think is the most. promising part of it. the people that. come through that you know you can count. on because they always tell the truth. about stuff and then they develop a. reputation like guys like Gren Glenn. Greenwald, Matt Taibbe, those type. Michael Shelonburgger, those type of. people that work for mainstream. organizations and then realize these are. this I'm being constrained and this is. not real journalism. This is not what I. signed up for. >> Like Matt Taibbe, I trust that guy. >> just with everything. He doesn't lie and. he's going to tell you what he knows. about this and why he thinks it's this.

way and what's going on. >> regardless of party lines regardless. Have you ever read Hate Inc. >> his book? >> Really good. He makes the case. that Rachel Matto is Bill O'Reilly on. the left. It's like basically the same. thing. and he's just talking about this. this. whole industry that's sort of set up. with media to keep everybody at each. other's throats. And that's what they're. selling. They're selling hate and. outrage every day. And your dad gets.

home, all these and he's. yelling at the TV. Like that's what that. is. It's like everybody's being played. But in your real life, what how are you. encountering most of this? >> Most of this you're not encountering. like you you don't need to be this. elevated and agitated, but then you're. online or your Twitter feed arguing with. people and it's like ah I know. >> everybody's going crazy. >> Yeah. It's the attention economy, right? That's what. >> we need a Martin Luther King. We need. someone who has a very compelling voice.

that preaches nonviolence and someone. who resonates with people because he's a. powerful speaker or she's a powerful. speaker who has this message. >> Yeah. Maybe it's James Telico. >> Maybe. >> Yeah. Look, he's he's a good man. Like, he's a genuinely good man. And but that. was the point was like. >> if you're a right-winger and you go, "Fuck those Antifa people." You got to. realize like, "Stop. Stop being on a. team because these kooky theocrats, they're on this side, too. They want to. turn this entire state into theocracy.

Like, there's a lot of nutty people on. the right, too. The right-wing militias, they're insane, too. Don't. ignore them. And on the left, hey, don't. ignore Antifa. Don't light the capital. building on fire. Hey, don't take over. giant chunks of Seattle and and change. the name of it. Remember that when they. did that? >> Do you remember the what did they call. it? >> Chaz. Remember that where they took over. and the the mayor said maybe it's the. summer of love. They took over blocks of. Seattle. >> Wait, this was we're talking about.

Antifa. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When. >> Well, I mean, what is Antifa, right? It's just. >> But that's the thing. I think maybe. that's what Jimmy Kimmel meant when when. he was I I didn't see. >> they have a handbook. They have a flag. like Antifa has. >> Yeah, but it's several different groups, right? It's not there's not one group. It's not like, you know, some of these. right-wing groups that are. >> you could say Islamic terrorism. Are you. talking about Hamas? Are you talking. about Hezbollah? There's a lot of. different factions, but the reality is. there is Islamic terrorism and there is. Antifa. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said,

I've reported on them. I'm not denying. that they exist. The thing is the people. on the left don't want. >> it's more decentralized is what I mean. >> They want to ignore it because they're. the tough guys of the left. They're the. people that are going to go out and do. the dirty work that needs to be done. The same way that people would look at. like some right-wing militias if they're. right-wing a few extremists, but hey, they keep those left-wing people on. their toes like. >> Right. >> Right. Yeah. We need we need more. independent journalists. I think you're. right. going back to the independent. journalist. It's it's partly why I've uh.

now started this podcast on YouTube is. because I know it's a place that I can. keep doing if it grows and I hope it. will doing the kind of reporting that I. do that I don't have to depend on a. Disney or as much as I thank Disney and. National Geographic for having me all. these years. It is really important to. be able to do independent journalism and. not be uh limited and stop and and and. be told what you can and cannot do. Of. course, it is crucial for the health and. and survival of our democracy. So,

YouTube is actually an amazing platform. for that. >> It really is. And fortunately, because. of social media, you can kind of sus out. who's legit and who's just a. propagandist, you know? It's a really. >> I agree. >> Yeah. Because now like if you're a. person who's uh an independent. journalist but it seems fishy that you. always talk about one issue all the time. and then all of a sudden someone finds. out oh look this guy gets funding from. this organization and this organization. is run by this guy and this guy supports. you know he's from Russia or whatever it.

is. >> or just by perpetrating perpetuating. these lies I will keep my fan base even. if I know that is a lie. It's not I. don't even think it's like they're being. paid to say this. I think that they get. they get their audience and their. followers and paid that way. >> They're also probably not the most. nuanced thinkers. >> Oh, they're definitely not the most. nuance. But but yeah, but it makes them. money to not be. >> I had a friend who briefly worked on a. right-wing show and one of the things. that the host told him was, "Hey man,

you got to stay and defend the party. Like whatever the party says, like. whatever you got to go with that and get. them on your side. That's how you build. an audience." And he was like, >> "Right, but that's exactly it.". >> My friend was like, "I'm out. I'm done. No, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm going. to tell you my opinions on things. >> and some of my opinions are very. leftwing, so I'm not doing that." So, he. left. Kudos to him. But this is the. world that we're living in now where. it's like people decide that they're. going to only adhere to one ideology. And you don't realize how malleable.

humans are. It's so easy to form. >> a group and have everybody like get a. part of it and have an ideology. And it. could be positive or it could be. negative. And if it's negative and. everybody's on board with it, then you. got Hamas or then you've got, you know, whatever, whatever organization it is. You've got the, you know, >> absolutely fill it out. >> I think it's a comfortable, it's a much. more comfortable way of living to. believe that there's bad people and then. you're the good part person, right?

>> And there's that other side and you're. on this side. You're on the good side, right? You just got to never be willing. to do evil because you think you're. doing it against evil people, right? >> You can't do that because then you're. evil. Like you're the thing you're. trying. Yeah. >> Which is interesting. We did a story. about assassins and uh we interviewed an. assassin in America and an assassin in. uh South Africa which has the highest. rates of assassins. And that is exactly. what they said when they justified what. they do, which is the worst of the worst. crime, right? You're taking away.

somebody's life. that is their. justification was that they were killing. bad people. >> Yeah. >> And so they're, you know, God was on. their side and they were killing bad. people. But it's it's it's a little bit. not on assassin level, but it's a little. bit that that idea like I mean. >> that's a crazy rationalization. You. know, that's what Genghaskhan used to. say. >> that he was killing. >> Well, that was a famous quote of. Genghaskhan. You must have done. something horrible for God to bring me. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. That's. >> I'm your punishment. I'm the punishment. of God. That was his quote. is the. craziest quote from a guy that killed 50.

million people in his lifetime or. responsible. >> Wow. >> At least indirectly to 50 plus million. people dying. >> Yeah, >> that's insane. >> But imagine that I'm on, you know, God. must have sent me. You must be terrible. if God sent me, >> right? Yeah. I mean, when you bring God. to the equation, right? >> But the thing, but that's how crazy. people could rationalize evil that like. I'm working for God to just destroy this. whole village. I'm going to kill a. million people in this village and stack. their bodies up in the center.

>> Yeah, >> that's what Ging did. And he said, "Well, God must have uh really hated. you, right? >> He sent me, >> right?" Yeah. >> Well, people could do that with. anything. And this is the problem with. tribalism. This is the problem with. being on a team. >> because if you're on the left, you hate. the people on the right. If you're on. the right, you hate the people on the. left. Yeah. >> And you know, you you wear your outfits. like maybe you have blue hair, you got. an American flag t-shirt, you know, and. everybody hates everybody. It's like for. what, >> right? And then they're on social media.

talking about stuff with. >> so many opinions with with no actual. knowledge. Like not once having spent. time actually on the ground looking at. any of these issues, right? They talk. about these immigrant raid, immigration. raids or drugs coming across, but not. one not one single one of these people. that have all these opinions have. actually spent a day reporting. on it on. >> I saw one of the um conversations with. Tom Hman where they were saying that 70%. of the people that they catch coming. across. >> which was you know. >> Well, this let me say this. 70% of the.

people that they catch and send back are. criminals. >> Um. even if it was true, why don't. you get that down to 100%. Like, why. don't you like figure out who's not a. criminal and then you'll have everybody. on your side? Like, if you're only. deporting gang members, no one would be. complaining. If you're only going after. known gang members and getting them, only going after known scammers, criminals, >> armed robberies, whatever anybody's.

doing. >> Then you'd have everybody on your side. Like 30% is crazy. Imagine if that. applied to most things. Like if most. people who were accused of a crime, 30%. were 70% 70% were guilty. The 30. >> 30% were innocent. Three out of 10. And. everyone's getting snatched up. and mass. >> But you know that that number is not. correct. It's actually 40% that have. some sort of uh. >> criminal history. >> Criminal history. But a lot of times. nonviolent. It can be a misdemeanor. It. can be actually a parking ticket. and. only 7% of the people being deported.

have been have criminal uh have have. been charged with criminal violence. >> So it the numbers are insane. >> I wonder if they could mitigate some of. this if they just change the way. the census works, but I don't think they. can. I think it's a constitutional. thing. I think it's the way the. constitution is written. >> I think it has something to do with just. the way it says it. It doesn't say. lawful citizens. I think it says people. living. >> People living, >> which is, you know, >> kind of, you know, they're people.

They're just people like people with. paperwork or people with not paperwork. >> We just got to figure out who's a. criminal. That's it. >> That should be the only thing that. everybody agrees on. >> Which take money, which takes money and. resources, right? It's a lot harder to. do. Well, >> they think that they were moving people. into this country politically to get. these people eventually a pathway to. citizenship and then they would have. lifelong voters. And this is what this. is the allegations of why they were. moving people to luxury hotels in New. York City and paying them and and doing. it in Chicago as well where the people.

that were poor that were living in. Chicago were like, "Hey, we're not. getting these resources." Like, why are. you giving these resources to people. that just came here from another. country? This was obviously before all. the ICE raids, which have completely. >> changed public opinion. So that's where. it gets really up because there's. people that probably would have been. willing to vote Republican again because. they didn't like what the Democrats were. doing because essentially they had a. dead man who was pretending to be. president and then they just had some. people running the government from. behind the scenes. We're not really sure.

who that was and that doesn't seem. right. So I voted Republican. There's a. lot of people that feel that way. And. then they see this and they're like, I. can't support that. I can't support this. heartless. >> Exactly. I agree 100%. >> And I'm sure I catch for it online. But lucky I don't read it. >> You never read it, right? You don't read. online stories. >> You got to if you have to. If you're in. a position like I'm in, you have to stay. sane, right? >> And the only way to stay sane is to say. as conflict free as possible. >> So even though I talk a lot of I.

don't read anything anybody says back. Like say it all. You're allowed to. You. should be. >> You should be allowed to talk about it. >> I read it all. I mean, I don't read what. people are posting about, but I read all. the messages I get sent and everything. and I reply and everything. >> That's very nice of you. It's just it's. not tenable at my. >> Oh, of course not. >> But it it it it would be nice if I knew. they were going to be nice. You know, like people that I meet are almost all. nice. >> Yeah. I mean, universally nice people. >> So much easier to be mean online than it. is face to face, right? >> Even people that I know don't like me.

Like I could, you know, there certain. people like I could sell say what I say. hi and they're like, "Hi." And like they. don't like me cuz I represent something. But they're not mean to me, you know? Whereas in the privacy of their own home. or sitting on the toilet, they could say. the most awful on Twitter. I don't. need to read that and I would probably. say it if I was them, too. That's the. thing. If you you feel powerless and. voiceless and you see someone doing. something that you don't agree with and. then you have this Twitter account and. you just like, "Fuck that guy." And. right, >> you I get it. I understand it. But I I.

can't read it. >> Right. No, I don't think you should. It's not you you'd have to start. drinking again if you did. >> Well, I never drank for that reason. I. always drank for fun. Uh I just, you. know, I think uh social media for the. most part is uh net positive. I think um. >> You think so? >> Yes, I do. >> I mean, I love it and I use it and I use. it as a tool for the work that I do. 100%. But uh but I I I I've was you I'm.

a very optimistic person and I always. thought you know there's there's a. reason you know there's great ways of. using social media like you do but like. with with young people nowadays and. >> yeah young people it's very challenging. but this is what I think information is. almost always good and then the. understanding that some of the. information is bad is good because then. you realize like oh don't trust. everything like figure out what's right. and what's wrong and then finding verifi. iable like accurate sources of. information is good all.

>> that's what I think is harder and harder. to do right. >> yeah but you can do it but the point is. at least more information is available. now than ever before which is makes it. very difficult for governments to pull. off stuff that they were trying to pull. off before it makes it very difficult. for. >> people to get get scammed like they were. getting scammed in the past it's just. it's it's just. >> there's going to be bunch of people that. get duped no matter What? And there's. going to be a bunch of people that get. kidnapped by social media, meaning that.

their attention span and their focus, their life becomes a part of that thing. But I think this is a new and emerging. aspect of society that we will navigate. and that we will learn from the failures. and it will cost a lot of people their. happiness and prosperity. A lot of. people will get wrapped up in that. and it will them up and that's net. negative, right? But I think we'll learn. from it. Like you don't want to get bit. by the rattlesnake. You hear that. rattle? Get the out of there. Well, we'll realize through all these other.

people's mistakes where the pitfalls. are. So, we'll have to develop more. robust ways of thinking about things and. more resilience, >> more resiliency. And I think that's the. net positive. And then this. communication with people all over the. world, >> net positive. I think ultimately the. real problem is the the challenging. aspect of is a lot of people you're. communicating with aren't real. >> and that's that's a giant problem now. China was busted using chat GPT to.

promagate they they're using it to um. they were going into Reddit forums and. uh they're using it on social media and. they they were pretending to be people. and they were arguing about stuff and. you know you could just give it a prompt. like from the position of a white. supremacist say why all Mexicans should. be. >> to create the vision. >> Uhhuh. to create a vision. I know in. this country I know. >> Yeah. And so that's a giant percentage. of all social media discourse. So I. don't necessarily think you should be. going back and forth with people. But I. think as a source of information and.

news and alternative perspectives and. boots on the ground, people like, "Hey, I'm reporting live from Gaza. Look what. they just did to this party.". >> And it was what we thought was going to. happen when the Arab Spring happened, you know, because everybody has a phone. and finally we were able to film these. amazing mag, >> you know, revolutions. But I think that. promise has sort of waited a little bit. I I have to point out one thing you. said, how scams are not as prevalent. these days. >> I should have said that. That that's not. what I meant really. I meant um the. government that it's very it's more.

difficult for government. Yeah. Online. because we're living in we're living in. the golden age of of scams. >> I get like 30 texts a day. The dude that. owned my phone number before me, this. dude Raymond was a And Raymond, Raymond, you idiot. Did you sign. up for everything, Cuz this guy. like every day like, "Hey, Raymond, like. your loans been approved.". >> So really fun. I'm going to come on your. podcast next year once I'm done with.

this project. But I'm working on a. really fun project for National. Geographic, which is. >> where I say yes to every single scam. that comes my way. >> Oh boy. I've been filming it for a few. months and it's been the craziest, wildest journey of life. >> Can you tell us? No, I I just can tell. you that I have romantic relationships. with people. >> God damn. >> I spend a lot of time on my burner phone. with people love bombing me. >> Really? >> But it's not it's a fake persona. Like I. I put a wig and glasses.

>> Oh, so you use your own picture. You. don't even use AI. >> No, I don't use AI. We actually sort of. modified. We put a fake nose on me and a. wig and glasses. But. >> people say it doesn't look a lot like. me. I can see it's me. But um but I will. talk it's it's really fascinating. But. also to talk about scams, which I can. talk about a lot, is uh we are living in. the golden age of scams. Uh I think it. was Warren Buffett that said fraud and. scams are the number one indust growth. industry of our time. M.

>> and one of the stories we did which is. so sad and I hate to bring it down back. to. sad topic but is that we I didn't know. this before starting to report on it was. a lot of times you think you know these. scammers these guys that are texting and. emailing you and calling you that these. are you know people in West Africa or. you know wherever but like loan. operators. Well we did a story about. these scam factories. Have you heard of. these? >> No. It's these compounds in places like.

Cambodia and Myanmar in Asia where they. are it's basically factories with. sometimes with thousands and thousands. of people forced labor. So these are. mostly people from India, sometimes. Brazil, other Asian countries. The. Philippines is a big place where they. respond to ads to work in what they. think are legitimate businesses to work. in online companies and whatnot. and. they are they pay for their expenses to. travel to these places to Cambodia and. Myanmar. In Myanmar, they're operating.

out of this area that's that's an. ongoing civil war and is ruled by these. militias. And they get in there and they. as soon as they get in, they take away. their passports and they're trapped and. they're forced to scam. So they spend. 247 scamming Americans and European. people. >> Wow. >> And it is an industry where they're. making billions of dollars. The US. government just recently seized uh $15. billion dollars from one company, from. one group of people alone in crypto. >> Wow. >> It's the craziest thing. So these people.

are being tortured and and um you know. beaten, sometimes killed and forced to. to scam. So we went actually to Myanmar. We were smuggled into the border into. Myanmar into the country illegally. >> Whoa. um across the river um and uh spent time. in this town that was basically built by. these this Chinese gang that was all. with the money of scamming Americans and. uh they were trying to build like a mini.

Macau and the guy that ran the the. company is called Yatai International. and he took us on a tour of this mini. Macau and it was so surreal. It was like. these aqua parks with no one in the aqua. park and these luxury casinos. We ended. the night. It was so crazy in uh we were. trying this guy said he would give us an. interview but first we had to do the. tour. So and the interview would happen. the next day. So we ended a night and. this was actually not filmed in a. karaoke that was a massive room where.

every single the whole every wall and. the ceiling was all a screen. It was. like the future. And this is in a war. torn area of a country that's incredibly. poor. and they've built this place with. millions and billions of dollars from. from profits of scamming. And we ended. the night with this guy who's basically. the head of this criminal Chinese gang. running these scams. >> in this karaoke singing Selen Deion and. Whitney Houston. and being poured whiskey and whatever.

high-end uh brand we wanted. >> You were getting drunk with them. >> Oh my god. Yes. I was singing my heart. out. I spent the whole night singing. Whitney. You said the videos are so. embarrassing because I cannot sing to my. life, but I was like, I we need to get. this guy on tape, so I'm just going to. do whatever. >> Wow. >> And then the next day, we interviewed. him and and it was just crazy. Then we ended our last day. I mean, we. interviewed a Chinese dude, so sad, like.

21-year-old who was caught trying to. escape and was chased out of the. building. He ran out of a third floor, broke both his legs, one at the hip, >> practically died, was actually saved by. an onlooker who took him to the hospital. and then moved to Thailand where I met. him. He was in a wheelchair, told us. about beatings. We spoke to another. Indian kid also who was for like they. had a water hose on his body for he was.

forced to stand for 24 hours um and then. electrocuted and I mean the videos out. of these places were insane like people. with u horrific wounds and people dying. and killed and yeah and just forced. forced I never forced to forced. into scamming. >> Yeah. Forced into scamming. And then we. interviewed a girl called Angel. who was raped repeatedly by her bosses. and she's sort of the face model. So a. lot of times after speaking to these. what they think are romantic. relationships for a long time, they want.

to see people's faces. So this is the. girl that then they put a fake AI face. on top of her, but it has to be a girl. because of the man aneurysms and the. voice. And they have this girl who. actually speaks English. and she would. talk to victims of scams and pretend. that she was the wonderful woman that. they'd been dating for months and and. convince them to put their money into. this crypto business that was fake and. uh and take millions out of these. victims. So, this woman starts crying.

and telling me how she knows she's doing. something awful, but and how she's raped. and how she doesn't want to be doing. And uh at the end she says, "I just want. your I said yes to doing this even. though it's incredibly dangerous, but I. accepted doing this because I just want. a message for the victims in America, the people that I've spoken to that I. don't that I'm sorry. I just want to. apologize for all the harm that I've. caused." And she's like in tears, but I. have no way out. >> I mean, these are heart-wrenching. heart-wrenching stories.

And the last day we were there, um, we. were able to, um, there's this amazing. organization called Acts of Mercy, religious-based organization that is. working to try to get these people out. And a lot of these bosses actually, if. you can pay for ransom, you can pay. $10,000 to save a person from there. So, because if you're a bad scammer, if. you're there and you're horrible and. you're, you know, if you're sad and. depressed and you're not doing your job, it's better for these bosses if you just. get paid $10,000 to let this person go.

So, there was this case of this the. Filipino woman who the boss had agreed. to a $12,000. uh payment to release her, but it's. really dangerous for there's this. negotiator that goes and sort of tries. to get her out of this compound, but he. has to come with the money and he has to. be able to pay the crime boss, but he. also has to pay the militias to get him. in. So, it was like a whole process and. we were with this group, Acts of Mercy. and another guy filming them as they're.

on the phone negotiating her release and. they're on the phone with her. She's. inside the scam center and she's like, "Where do I go? This game center is. massive." She had no idea where to go. And they're saying, "Go to the west gate. and the guy is there waiting for you.". She's like, "I don't know where to go.". And she's crying. if they see me with a. phone, because it's a confiscated phone, they're gonna beat me and they're going. to put me in the dark room where I'm. beaten and, you know, tortured for for. days. And and and Amy, the woman on this. side, is telling her, "Believe us.

There's somebody waiting for you. Do not. be afraid. Bring your phone. We need to. be telling you how to get there. It's. this whole It was his whole ordeal. It. was like insane. It was out of a. movie.". >> And in the end, they didn't manage to. get her out. Um but she was not that day. but she was released a month later. Um. and she made it to safety. But so this. just to show how dangerous and difficult. it is even when they agree to let them. go. >> So what are most of the scams or most of. the scams from. >> crypto scams? They're called pig.

butchering scams. Um but yeah that's the. name they give them because it's an. express Chinese expression. It started. in China. Started as a domestic scam in. China actually. and the pig butchering. because the idea is that. >> you fatten the pig which is your victim. and then you. >> kill them at the end, right? And and uh. which that's why it's called play. butchering. But the idea is that you. meet somebody online and it's usually a. beautiful girl. >> or man and um and you create you start a. relationship with that person. You just.

start. >> how do they meet them? >> You know those texts that you get a lot. of times like hey I haven't talked to. you in a while. A lot of those are big. butchering scams. A lot of messages you. get on Instagram from these beautiful. girls or. >> they're stepping it up cuz I got a few. eye messages like that. I was like, whoa, not even just a green text bubble. anymore. They got iPhones now. >> And then they tell you, you know, follow. me on Instagram and then you go, let's. go on WhatsApp. >> and then they're sending you photos of. them in their private jets and living. this wonderful life. And. >> is that what they're doing with you?

>> Yes. >> With your ins. So these scams that you're. >> one of the one we're trying to get is. that we're getting several different. kinds of scams like Indian call centers. and all all of the different schemes. >> but eventually they start saying look we. are leave living and so you're curious. like how do you like how are you making. so much money it's like oh yeah I've. been investing in crypto and you know I. can't really tell you much about it now. so they like last it can last months and. at some point they're like okay I've. built a relationship yeah. >> I'm going to tell you how I do it.

>> you've got $5,000 right now and then you. put the $5,000 and then they show profit. on these fake websites. It looks. completely legitimate and you're saying, "Oh my god, I put 5,000 and now I have. 10. How much more can I put in?" So. people are going all in and they're like. everything. They have 401ks. They're. >> reorggaging their houses, everything. And then. >> did you hear the cases about the guy in. Kansas? >> No. >> The bank guy. The guy that was the head. of this bank in Kansas. Jamie, did you. hear about this?

>> It's a fascinating story. It was. a story in the New York Times and then. it got reported everywhere. I was trying. to get this guy to talk to me because. his story is fascinating. So this guy, amazing member of the community, small. town in Kansas, the local bank that was. started by the farmers decades decades. ago. It's where all the farm community. was put would put their money would. trust this bank. Well, it turns out that. this guy, the head of this bank that. everybody trusted, upstanding member of. the community was stole uh millions of.

dollars from the bank and the bank went. bankrupt. >> and he was stealing the money because he. was being scammed by a pig butchering. scam. And it started with him putting. his own money and then they kept on. saying that in order to release the. funds and all the mill millions that he. made from his initial investment, he. would put in more and more money. I. think he ended up putting in what. something like. >> 47 million from from. >> customer accounts to scammers depleted. the bank's holdings. When a state.

banking regulator uncovered this fraud, it closed the bank and called the FBI. Whoa. He started slow investing a few. thousand in 2022 to buy what he thought. was cryptocurrency. Oh my goodness. >> How sad is that? >> Wow. >> I mean, awful. Obviously, he was. stealing from his customers. >> Wow. But I find it so he actually. traveled to Australia at one point. thinking he was going to meet these the. the the people that owed him money. I. mean he actually was completely a scam. And this is like.

>> the head of a bank. >> the head of a bank. >> Wow. >> It's crazy. These guys are so. good. >> It's. >> that's crazy. They get a a banker. But. is a banker in Kansas though? You know. what I'm saying? >> Like come on. >> Don't be mean. Sorry, Kansas, but you know what I'm. saying. >> Well, he's in prison now. >> Oh, well, he should be. He stole $47. million, but he's also a dumbass. And. the crazy thing is that you could be a.

dumbass and be a smart person if greed. gets involved. Yeah, >> greed is like for gre I think greed for. shady people. It it'll it's almost. it's kind of fascinating because you got. to know at one point in time this is not. smart but the greed is like but what if. it is. >> but I think more than greed I think it's. the acceptance that you have lost all.

that money and that must weigh so. heavily on you if you have you know if. you're about to foreclose your home if. you'd sent all the money from your kids. college funds if. >> Oh, I mean the banker. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, but even the banker I. mean but even the banker he sent all his. initially it was all but then he started. stealing. That's all greed. >> I I I I don't think I think it got to a. point that he was swindled and made to. believe that if he give more money he.

would he would get the money that he. initially invested backion. >> and he would be able to put back the 45. million. >> that he gave he stole from his. customers. I think the realization, and. this is something that I know from. talking to so many scam scamming. victims, the it's not so much about. wanting to make that money. It's the. realization that you've been talking to. somebody that's not real and that you. have been so swindled and you know, I. don't want to use the word dumb because.

I think all of us can fall victims to. these scams, but that that the. acceptance of that is really difficult. So, you just want to keep on believing. it. Yeah. >> You know, you just pay whatever you need. to pay so the dream stays alive. >> Yeah. There's a Carl Sean quote about. that that it's easier to convince. >> a person like it's harder to like once a. person has been swindled, it's much more. difficult to convince them of the. swindle. They'll they'll find ways to. justify that it must be true. >> 100%. I I feel that with this experiment.

I'm doing right now. I mean, even though. I know I'm being swindled, but there's. something about once you're deep in that. relationship, it's it's Yeah. It's It. does something funny to you. >> It's also exciting, >> right? And that's the problem is that. most of life is boring. >> Yeah. >> You know, and if you you're involved in. something that may or may not yield. money or may or may not yield some sort. of romantic relationship or may or may. not yield. >> 100% a drug deal. >> or a celebrity scam, which is huge these. days. If you're talk if you think you're. talking to, you know,

>> Brad Pitt. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> like that maybe maybe your life has a. meaning, right? There's a reason why. you're here. There's something exciting. happening, >> especially if you have like a 65 IQ, >> right? >> That's the problem. There's a lot of. dumb asses out there and it's not fair. to scam those people. >> Some scams like we tolerate like tele. evangelists. We feel we we're like, "Look, if you really believe that guy. with the private jet and the Bentley, that guy, you need to send him money cuz.

God wants you to send him money. You're. on your own.". >> You know, it's such a dumb scam and it's. so out in the open. >> You know, >> astrology is another one I've been. looking into. >> I don't know if astrology is 100%. This is my take on astrology. I think at one point in time they had. some knowledge about astrology that may. or may not be lost. Maybe some people. understand it. I. >> I'm I'm a believer like you. There's by. way. >> thousands of books that are like ancient.

book I don't know thousands but a lot. written about the very specific details. of astrology. >> like in terms of like where the. constellations are what time of the day. it is where you know where the earth is. in relationship to Mars it's very weird. stuff cuz I want to know like what the. was the origin of all this. >> right absolutely I meant psychic. scammers sorry not astrology I meant. psychic scammers. >> oh psychic scammers Yeah, psychic. >> I'm a believer in astrology as well. >> I think there's something to real.

astrology. I need to get a real. astrologer on. I've I've tried to find. one that I think is legit. >> What sign are you, by the way? >> I am a Leo. >> Oh, of course you were. >> Of course. That's ridiculous. So is my son. So is my dad. It's one of. my favorite signs. I'm a Taurus. >> Okay. Um I don't know. I I think that. like newspaper astrology is. >> Yeah, of course it is. But I don't know. that real astrology is not nonsense.

>> Wait, do you get do you get that a lot. that when you say you're a Leo, they. say, "Of course you are.". >> I've heard it before. Yeah. >> Why? >> I don't know. >> Oh, because you like the the spotlight, right? Which is my son and my dad as. well. >> Is that what it is? A spotlight. >> Yeah. Leo Leos like to. >> What is it? It's like attention. >> They like attention. Yeah. >> I'm I think I'm a little Leo as well, >> but I'm a I'm a Taurus. I'm. >> Yeah. I've heard like bullheaded. I've. heard, you know, strong willed. >> That's to that's Leo Taurus. >> Yeah, Taurus as well, right? The bull.

The bull. Yeah. >> Um, >> but I don't what I'm talking about is. like the super specific stuff like you. were you were born at 3:00 a.m. >> You were conceived 9 months before that. When were you conceived? What was going. on? The like how do you know where where. what in the procession of the equinoxes? Where's this the position of the earth? You know, there's a lot of weird stuff. they take into consideration. I'm like, "Wow." Like, >> I'd really like to learn about it,

right? Like from someone I'm going to. have someone on that really understand. I just have to have someone on is not a. cook. >> And that's the problem is it's like one. of those disciplines that's littered. with cooks, >> right? Yeah. I find it fascinating, too. And I'm a non-believer in everything. I'm very skeptical about everything, but. astrology I've always kind of believed. into. I mean, it's it's the idea that, you know, where the sun and the stars, they have an effect on on tides and. currents and and why wouldn't that all. have an effect? I mean, I know nothing. about it, but why wouldn't it have an.

effect of on you when you're born and. when and where and the time, >> right? And it's probably a part of. nature's natural order, too, to create a. bunch of different kinds of people. >> Yeah, maybe. >> You because I mean, what makes you who. you are? There's a lot of factors, right? There's environment, there's. genetics, and then there's probably some. >> some Yeah. >> celestial going on. >> going on. Yep. >> Maybe. I'm not, you know, I don't know. enough about it to, but I'm I'm open to. it because I think there's a lot of. information that was lost. I think.

there's a lot of information that we. would dismiss, you know, from ancient. civilizations that we dismiss that I. think I think the problem is that these. ancient civilizations collapsed and like. with the burning of the library of. Alexandria, you're left with very. little. Like a lot a lot of like very. important information is missing. >> And so then you got to kind of like go, well, that seems like That. seems like old folksy stuff. Like maybe. or maybe there was like. >> maybe they had figured something out.

over a long period of time and there was. a science to it, >> right? Yeah. You should have an. astrologologist on that would be super. >> time when it's not crazy. >> Yeah. >> You know, like a psychic like get a. psychic on. It's not crazy. I've had. people on that were remote viewers. That's another weird one. >> you have. >> Yeah. How put off? How put off who's um. he was uh running uh some various. programs for the United States. government. Specifically, I had him on. though to not talk about remote viewing, to talk about UFOs. >> And uh he was actually brought on board.

during um Herbert Walker Bush's. administration. They um well well he was. working for the government at the time. but they brought him on as one of the. scientists that they they' got a group. of people from various disciplines and. they said we're going to compile. >> a list of pros and cons in terms of the. impact of society of disclosure of alien. life and this is what they were telling. him. We have recovered crashed UFOs and.

we are doing back engineering programs. on them. We have for years. We also have. recovered biological entities. We are. thinking about disclosing this. information to the American public. I. want you to compile a list on the. positive aspects of disclosure, how. it'll affect society and give a. numerical value to these things and then. negative and all these scientists came. up with a much higher negative than. positive. So they didn't disclose. >> And what do you know what the list was? What were.

>> it? religion, >> government, um the economy, um. >> those were all negative. Those were all. negatives. It could affect religion. It. could affect the economy. >> It would affect government and the fact. that no one would ever listen to the. president cuz he's just a The. aliens are hovering over our. head abducting people every day. >> So, this is where I think it would be. interesting. I actually think that. there's a positive if it were to happen. right now because it sure as hell would. bring us all together, right? >> Yes. Well, that was Reagan said that. You ever see that speech? >> No. It was a famous speech that he gave.

at in front of the United Nations and I. think he gave this speech at a time. where you know this was like Gorbachoff. tear down that wall. It was that kind of. speech where there's like trying to. unite us all together and his speech was. imagine if we were all faced with an. alien threat from another world. How. quickly we would unite together. >> Yeah. So that's the part I mean we need. it now more than ever. So if they're out. there. >> I know but is that the only way we could. unite? We have to be threatened by. another enemy. Like, god, we're so.

warlike. We're so warlike. We. need an interstellar war to unite. America and the rest of the world. >> It's so sad because it didn't used to be. like that, right? A politics wasn't. something that people talked about all. day long, all the time. Like it was. >> that's the negative aspect of social. media. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because this is all people talk about. Like even us like you know there's so. much interesting stuff to talk about and. yet we've spent time talking about. politics because. >> but we're talking about the fascinating. aspects of politics as it affects human. civilization and how discourse.

>> Yes. But also like the division and the. right and the left and being careful. with what you say because what if the. other side this and that. It it's it's. now in every single home in every single. conversation people have. And it it's. just it didn't used to be like that. It. it just didn't like government was. there. It existed. It's supposed to work. well. If it's not, hopefully there are. good journalists out there exposing. what's not working out well. But it. should not be the discourse all the time.

about whether you're right-wing, you're. leftwing, whether you're with us or not. or against us. And and it it it just. >> taints everything and and and. >> and takes too much space, I think. Yes. for other conversations with much more. important. >> conversations that we should be having. whether it's about AI whether it's about. social media whether it's about aliens. they're much bigger problems that are. coming in our future and we shouldn't be. so sort of tunnel focused on whether.

we're you know whether what we're saying. is approved by the right or the left or. whether this or that it's just. >> an amazing waste of mental resources and. it's also a way for very uninteresting. people to attach themselves to a worthy. cause. >> Yeah. >> People that have nothing else going on. in their life and all of a sudden it's. this whatever issue it is. Whatever. issue it is, that's their whole. identity. >> Yeah. >> And they go all in and it's generally a. distraction for a failed life. >> I think so too. >> That's a lot of it. It's not doing what. you really want to do, not having the.

relationships you really want to have, the friendships you really, and instead. you're involved in this stupid. cause. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah, I know. >> That's so dumb. But you're right. If the. aliens showed up, we'd probably all. unite together. But unfortunately, like. I feel like the most united moment that. I could remember in my adult life was. right after September 11th. >> Yeah, same. >> Were you in America at the time? >> In New York. >> You were in New York. Oh boy. >> Yeah. I was uh. >> How different was the feeling where. everybody was like smiling to each other. and saying hi on the street afterwards?

>> My the elevators. I mean, I did the the. initial reporting for Portugal, Portuguese television that day. Um so I. was at Columbia University's journalism. school. I just moved to New York a month. before and. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And I think it's. >> Where were you living? >> I was living on uh 72nd and Broadway. >> Okay. So, you're. >> upper west. >> Pretty far away from the actual. >> Yeah. >> Did you go down? >> Yeah. So, I didn't go to ground zero, but I went to Midtown to the rooftop of. this building where everybody was doing.

sort of the sat satellite live feed. So, you had journalists from all over the. world. Meanwhile, I was 24 25 years old. like zero experience doing a live feed. I was just I just moved to the United. States. It's actually it's an. interesting story how I even got to the. US because you know I applied for. Columbia University three times. The. first time I was not accepted. The. second time I was put in a wait list and. didn't get accepted. The third time I. flew to New York and I knocked on the. dean's door and I explained I'm. Portuguese. I really want to come to. this university. I want to be a. journalist in America. And he sat me.

down. We spoke for an hour and that year. I was accepted. >> That's amazing. That's amazing that you. could do that. >> And it taught me my first big important. lesson in journalism, which is. persistence. Don't be afraid to get. nosed because I mean, what's the worst. that can happen, right? >> Yeah. >> And uh but a month after this, I'm in. New York. I'm sleeping in the morning. and I start getting phone calls. And I. was sleeping that late because I'd been. studying until really late that night, the night before. And the first phone I.

pick up uh was um my television station. that I'd worked for in Portugal. I'd. done an internship there and worked. there. And they called me and said, "Hey, turn on your television." And uh. it was when the second uh the fir the. first tower had collapsed and they said, "Turn on your television and see what's. happening." I had no idea this was. happening. And they said, "We need you. to go to Midtown and do we have no. Portuguese journalists in Manhattan. They're all our journalists are in DC or. they are outside of Manhattan. Manhattan. had been locked down. you need to go. down and do the live reporting for us of.

what's happening and on and suddenly my. cell phone started ringing and it was my. mother who was crying and begging me not. to leave the house and uh and I was I. had to explain to her mom this is like. my dream is to become a journalist as. part of my job and I I have to go anyway. an hour later I was at the rooftop of. this building surrounded by all these. journalist heroes of mine that I grew up. watching on live television and shaking. I was so so nervous um I wasn't sure if. I was going to be able to put two words. together.

So nervous and uh I ended up doing my. live report and it all went well and I. was ecstatic. I was so happy. I was. like, "Oh my god, I did it. I did it. I. have a future in this profession that I. really want to be a journalist and this. is great." And then I will never forget. and I get emotional every time I talk. about this. But I will never forget. we're just walking down to the streets. and. it's every time I talk about this, but. and seeing the first um people looking. for their loved ones, right? And it's. like the posters with the faces of the.

husbands and the children and not. knowing where they were. And that moment. totally changed my life because sorry, >> it was okay. >> It was a moment that I Yeah. first of. all realization like what the this. is not about you and this is about. something so much bigger that's. happening where so many people are. affected by this. and it was the moment also that I. realized that the kind of journalism. that I wanted to do was um try to.

understand why this sort of evil happens. in the world and how do things like this. exist and uh a year after I graduated. from Colombia I moved to the Middle East. and I enrolled in the University of. Damascus us in Syria to learn Arabic and. to try to um do my I did my first story. as a freelance journalist about the. jihadis who were crossing to Iraq to. fight against the Americans. That was. the first story I ever did as a. freelance journalist. And uh and so yeah, so I was I was there. on 911 and uh um remember after.

reporting and going, you know, to school. and going up to my building and meeting. strangers on the streets and everybody. was just like looking at each other and. hugging each other and there was like so. much love and support. >> Um and it lasted for months. And it. lasted for months and it was really. beautiful and everybody came together. and it was a beautiful beautiful thing. >> and everybody went right back to being a. >> and everybody went back to this. >> Yeah. >> Which is Yeah. Which is me against you,

you know, which is so sad. >> Well, for just that one brief moment I. realized like for that during that time. and everybody had that American flag on. their car and they were driving around. with it in LA. Yeah. >> Which is like one of the most. unpatriotic places in the country. They. all had American flags on their car. It. was it was a crazy moment and I realized. like this is possible to unite us like. we don't have to be in this stupid. mindset. But why does it take something. terrible? Why does it take a tragedy for. us to be united? >> And and the you know what's so sad is.

that 3,000 people died on that day, right? Um I'm going to bring it back to. drug and alcohol addiction, but 3,000. people die every single week in America. from addiction, from drug and alcohol. addiction. >> These these crisis are happening every. day. and uh and and like yes, let's. actually unite to do some good and to. try to solve problems instead of, you. know, dividing to try to figure out, you. know, how to hate more another person. >> Yeah. >> And how to separate us all. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, you know that and I know. that and we both live that way. Like we. can talk in circles about this. >> What's going on? We need get the rest of the world on. board. We need to get people to stop. paying attention to all this. right? >> And just just learn how to be nicer, >> right? I agree. >> I mean, >> there's you don't have much time in this. life. Doesn't last as long as you think. it does. >> No. And just have empathy. It's my main. message always is just like try to place. yourself in somebody else's shoes. >> Don't be quick to judge. like actually.

try to understand why these migrants are. coming to this country, why these, you. know, people are carrying drugs on their. backs and excruciating difficult work. and dangerous work. Why are they doing. it instead? And why are people scamming, >> right? >> You know, try to understand why they're. doing what they do. And once you. understand the root causes, then you can. actually make a difference and try to. change that and actually have an impact. >> Absolutely. >> Which is much harder, right? Much harder. to try to solve it that way. >> Yeah. Much harder. Well, it's it's hard.

for people to have empathy, too. Some. people, especially they're just tired. all the time and exhausted and they're. unhealthy and their life sucks and they. just want other people like And. they don't see those people. They don't. feel it. They're not. >> They need a Martin Luther King. >> Yeah. >> They need a James Terico. >> Well, we need someone like that for. sure. We need someone who's got a. >> someone who is a powerful speaker, too. like they have to be charismatic that. has a a message. >> of nonviolence and love because it's. really the only way you you don't get.

anything from violence other than more. violence, >> you know, unless you're the the biggest. baddest bully and then you squash. everything around you and great, now. you're a dictator, >> right? >> It's not good for any of us. >> No, it doesn't. >> And it's contrary to what we're supposed. to be about in the first place. This is. supposed to be the United States of. America. We're supposed to be a. community. Mhm. >> I don't think that LA is the most. unpatriotic. I know you don't like LA. I. still live there and I know you don't. like it, but I disagree that it's. unpatriotic. >> What do you think it is?

>> Why would you say it's unpatriotic? California is an incredible state. I. know. >> if you have American flag uh in front of. your house, people will call you racist. That's a fact. >> That I haven't seen that happen. >> That's a fact. That's a fact. There's. there's a lot of indoctrinated young. kids. >> perhaps. And those people are. and they're not they're they're as full. as hate as the other side. >> You don't get that in Texas. >> Right. But you you also have places in. America where if you have an LGBTQ flag. on the front of your door, you're called. lots of other things.

>> Sure. Yeah. >> Right. So that goes both ways. >> Well, that's not necessarily patriotism. That's just being an intolerant. But I think that the real problem with. Los Angeles is the government and the. fact that they want to ignore the. rampant fraud and the fact that. everything is so overregulated it's. impossible to get permits for things. So. industry is leaving the overt taxing. >> Have you read Ezra Klein's book about. this? >> No, I have not. >> Uh I haven't read the book yet, but I've. heard him giving a bunch of interviews.

about about it. Um. >> yeah, he's getting attacked for it now. People are saying he's leaning right, which is hilarious, >> but it's about how if you're he's a. Democrat, as you know, um but how. Democrats have to figure out how to make. the system work and and and and how to. build things and how to and not do what. you were saying, create all these limits. and these problems for like building. houses in the Palisades. And. >> what's also the problem is that. Democrats are the Democrats of 2025, not. the Democrats of 1994. If you go back to.

the Democrats and Bill Clinton was. president, it was a totally different. thing. Like Bill Clinton's, if you hear. him talk, he sounds like a populist that. is uh like. >> going after criminals. >> Yes. Pretty pro America. Like so it's. like that's what everybody can get on. board with. It's like that's the the. real problem is these ideologies shift. >> with special interests and money and. funding and propaganda and then they. become something unrecognizable. They. become something that supports war. that.

becomes something that suppresses free. speech. They become something that was. like entirely in direct opposition to. what it would have been in 1985. It's. like, >> yeah, but not all. Not all. >> Of course, not all. But this is the same. problem because it's like if you decide. I'm a right-winger, you're supposed to. take in all of that. You're supposed to. like like that guy said to my friend, like you got to got to support the party. cross. There's the only way. You got to. get them on your side. >> Like what? even if I don't agree at all.

with what they say. I have to bite my. tongue cuz I'm a part of a gang now. off. >> Right. >> And that's the problem is that we only. have two stupid parties and. >> huge problem. >> Yeah. I mean, you do have libertarian. twice. But it's kind of like these. people. I'm going to vote for nothing, >> right? >> You know, that's never going to win, >> right? >> Which is crazy to say. >> Yeah. >> But that is kind of what it is, >> right? you know, and then you see other. countries that have like six, seven. >> Yeah. Portugal and the majority of.

European countries, >> the Netherlands. Yeah. There's a lot of. countries that have multiple parties and. >> Yeah. You you know, obviously there's. division, but there's nothing like the. division that exists in the US right. now. It's. >> Well, that's the negative aspect of. social media. I believe I believe it's. ramping up people and it's it's pushing. the divide even further. But what I'm. hoping is that this is a growing pain. and that will sort through this and and. under but we need non-violent leaders.

that are very intelligent that also make. sense to both people which I do think is. possible both groups of both. ideologically captured sides which I do. think is possible because in the middle. is where we all live. In the middle is. where all live. We all want safety. We. all want education. We all want. fairness. We all want to make sure that. no one's polluting and good access to. resources and a chance to make a life. for yourself and pursue your dreams. That's what we all want.

>> All that other stuff is just dividing. points. One of the things I had Rep Luna. on the podcast. We were talking about. something and she said they don't want. to fix this issue because they can fund. their campaign with it. >> Of course. I mean that's immigration to. >> Isn't that crazy? like that politicians. will fail to resolve an issue on purpose. >> because they want to raise funds, >> right, >> by campaigning on this issue. >> It is disgusting. Yeah. But. >> it's so g That is unAmerican. That's.

That's truly evil. >> Truly evil. Yeah. >> And when she said I was like. >> I didn't think of that. >> Yeah. >> But I kind of did, but I didn't want to. believe it. And then coming out of. someone's mouth who works in government, I'm like, "Oh, fuck.". >> Right. If you stand for a cause, right, and that and and you're seen as the. person that can potentially solve that. problem. >> Yeah. >> And then that problem goes away, then. you don't have a platform to stand on. So, a lot of times you don't want to. solve that problem. >> She's um. >> and I think in many ways that's what. immigration has been because it is not.

possible that we have the broken. immigration system that we have. We have. the backlog of people trying to become. to get papers that who can't. We don't. have a a a way for people want to come. to this country legally to come to this. country legally. It's, you know, and and. and it's been decades and decades of. this and we haven't been able to figure. out how to solve this problem. It has to. be because it benefits all politicians. that this is. >> that this is hasn't been solved. Right. Well, another very high level politician. told me once, I can't remember if he. said on the podcast, so I don't want to.

say his name, but that he had a. conversation with a man who was a CEO of. a large corporation and said he was very. opposed to um tightening up the border. because he needs the illegal immigrants. for the workforce. >> He just said it openly. >> like, yo, like so that's part of it, too. They want cheap labor, >> right? >> Yeah. Because it helps their bottom. line, which is like, oh god. Yeah. >> Oh god. And as long as those people. don't have paperwork, they have to shut. the up. They can't demand better.

worker rights. They can't Yeah. >> Yeah. Which is a problem also now with. the raids is that a lot of violence is. happening. You know, even if it's rapes. or domestic abuse and people are just. even if they're going through this, they're not going to call the police. because they're afraid of being. deported. >> They're scared they're going to get. deported. Of. >> course. Yeah. It's. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I know. It's like boy, >> it's an overcorrection after. overcorrection. you know, >> without actually fixing the. >> left and right and left and right. And. that's where you get real cynical.

You're like, I think these people like. it like this. >> I think they like all this crazy. >> It's difficult not to get cynical, right? And I actually it's to me it's. always heartbreaking when you hear. people saying that they don't vote or. they don't really they're not into. politics. They don't they don't care. about what's happening because. politicians are all the same and they. don't they're completely disengaged. And. to me, that's heartbreaking. >> It is heartbreaking because Yeah. That's. taking the p power away from people, right? >> The other thing you think about these. dark times is they call for people to. rise up. Like not I don't mean like rise.

up against the machine and rebel. I mean. like they call for a hero. And that's. what we always hope for. We're like. maybe this one person's going to figure. this out. Maybe there's going to be this. person that. >> that emerges this real leader, right? >> And they're looking at the Democratic. party and they're like, >> "No, there's no one there. Who's it. going to be?" I don't think Talerico is. trying to run for president. So outside. of him, who who really makes sense? Well, you got a bunch of people that are. just politicians, politics as usual. And.

then once they get inside, >> you have a bunch of cowards on the. Republican side that they're seeing this. stuff happening. Even though we know. that they don't agree with it, even. though we know they know it's morally. wrong, they are they're too afraid to to. speak out. >> And they're all inside of trading. >> Yeah. >> All of them. On top of that, they're all. making It's crazy. DC, they're making. $170,000 a year. They get into office. within a couple years they're worth 10. million. They're worth 15 million. And. you look at it, it's all stock trades. Like, this is bananas that this is. legal.

>> You put Martha Quinn in. jail. >> Put Martha Quinn in jail. They tried her. for insider trading and got her on. lying. >> Martha Stewart, you mean? >> Oh, did I say Martha Quinn? That's the. MTV VJ. Sorry. Martha Stewart. >> Martha Stewart. I love Martha Stewart. Martha Stewart. That's so funny. I. I really want to have her on my. podcast. >> Oh, yeah. She's a badass lady. >> Um, but they put her in jail. They put. Martha Stewart in jail who was like. beloved by America. Have you watched the. doc? It's so good. >> No, she's quite a lot. >> So great. >> But you also have to be quite a lot to.

become that person, you know. That's how. you Absolutely. >> That's how you become that person. >> She's a proud and I love her. >> Yeah. I mean, that's it's kind of funny, you know, but that's you could say the. same thing about a lot of people that. are very famous. >> Um, >> well, listen, it's always great to talk. to you. I really appreciate you coming. here and you do amazing work. You really. do. It's. >> so courageous and so necessary and I. think you provide a window into various. aspects of of life on this planet that. otherwise people would not have access.

to. >> Thank you. And I hope the podcast will. be the continuation of that. >> I'm sure it will be. I'm sure it will. be. >> So um The Hidden Third. >> and uh it is available on YouTube. Is it. available everywhere? >> Everywhere. >> Everywhere. Who's this first guy here? Your podcast Alamar is an amazing guy. That's the retired FBI agent. >> that I spoke with. You should listen to. that. So, he's the guy who went after. the pill mills in Florida who was doing. his investigation at the same time as I. was doing. And then Fabian Alamar is a.

great guy. >> and he he's a for oh this. >> former skater did nine years in prison. Uh two he he was sentenced to seven. years in prison for kidnapping and. beating the out of this guy who. supposedly he was on meth high very on. crack. Actually, very high on crack. Anyway, beat the out of this guy. who supposedly allegedly had raped his. sister, but beat the kept him in a. trunk, beat the out of him, was. arrested for seven years and then did. two more years because he he almost. killed a child molester in prison, >> but basically did a whole 180. Um, is.

now an actor on the Mayans, has an. incredible life story. He was brought up. by gangs. His family member were all. gang members. time in prison, but has. done an whole 180 is now involved in an. answer. This is it was that show with. the guy the bikers. >> Oh, it's a biker gangster. >> He also did that uh with the Eva. Longoria, the hot chili, what was it. called? The flaming hot movie. Was also. in that movie. Anyway, he's become an. actor, but also very involved a pro. skater and also very involved in. anti-recidivism. >> And then another guy we had on was Matt.

Ber. Do you know Matt Ber? He was uh you. should have him on. He's in prison right. now. We interviewed him a week before he. went to prison actually. He's the guy in. the Otani scandal. Baseball. The. baseball the Otani scandal. >> I don't know that scandal. >> Do you know it, Jamie? >> Yeah. What happened? >> So, you know Atani? >> Yeah. >> Big biggest, most well-known, most. successful I don't know term. I don't. know sports terms, but. >> the best player baseball player ever. apparently. >> is Otani. Uh he's in the Dodgers. He was.

signed up for the Dodgers. It turns out. that his translator who is also his best. friend because Otani is Japanese and. doesn't speak fluent or doesn't speak. English. So he has a translator who was. also his best friend in the US was with. him 247 had a gambling problem and the. bookie in this gambling problem was a. guy called Matt Boyer. Fascinating guy. grew up in Orange County and built an. empire. I mean, making millions of. dollars as a as an illegal bookie, flying private jets, like betting insane.

amounts of money himself. He's also an. gambling addict, but was like had high, you know, athletes from all over and. important and celebrities, basically. placing bets with him. Instead of. placing them online, they place them. with him. Um, but all illegal. And it. was found out just before he was about. to sign for the Dodgers, the Otani, that. while they were investigating a casino. in Vegas, they came across this bookie. And with through this bookie, they found.

out that Otani's translator and possibly. they thought initially maybe Otani was. illegally betting. This is a guy that. stands to make millions for the Dodgers, for all the companies that he sponsors. So, this was a massive deal. And. uh it turns out that Otani was not the. one betting that it was his translator. Matt Ber, who was at the center of the. scandal, believes that Otani knew that. he had a that his friend and translator. had a betting uh gambling problem. Um.

but um he came out and said he had no. idea. And uh you know, nobody wanted. this problem on their hands. It came out. of money that you you could lose. And uh. and so they basically the guy came out. saying initially he said that Otani knew. the translator said Otani knew and then. he came out and said actually Otani had. no idea and I lied and now he's also in. prison. But Matt Boyer is now serving I. believe it's uh seven or something. months in prison. And uh yeah.

>> illegal gambling. >> for illegal for being a bookie. Yeah. For. >> for money laundering. And he was I think. it was something like $40 million. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Much more. His losses. were around 19,000 bets. Boy, that guy. was hooked. Between September 21 and. January 2024, his winnings amassed to be. over 142 million. Whoa. He won over 142 million, which he kept. for himself. His losses were around 183.

million. Oh, >> he lost 40 million that he still owes. Matt Ber by the way. He only he only g I. mean his main bookie was this guy. >> Oh my god. He must have been gambling so. high. >> It's insane. >> that Oh, >> and he couldn't stop. And Matt talks. about like this guy I would say. He. would like he'd be down on a place and. he says, "Let's double that. Let's. triple that." He was always sort of. chasing that dopamine high. >> It is a crazy addiction. >> It's the secret. It's the hidden. addiction as they call it because you.

can be a completely. >> You can have a job. You can be a working. addict and nobody will ever know that. you have a massive gambling problem. >> until it all comes together. >> For whatever reason, when people get. hooked, they can't shake it. It is a. crazy one. >> Yeah. Because because the dopamine, it's. really interesting because you get the. hit of dopamine whether you lose or win. >> So, you're always getting that dopamine. hit. >> Did you see Uncut Gems? >> Uh, I movie. >> I did. Yes, I did. >> The best representation of a gambling. addict I've ever seen in a film. Like, watching that film gave me anxiety. I.

was like, "Oh my god, don't do it. Don't. do that. Don't do that. >> I know. I know. It's so anathema to who. I am, too, that I always get so nervous. like don't people do that. >> I know. I know. It's But I I've been. around a lot of those people, you know. Um when I was in my early 20s, I spent a. lot of time in pool halls. >> and I was around a lot of gambling. addicts and I was just fascinated by it. People that would go from the track to. the pool hall. So they go to the. racetrack all day, gamble on the races, and then go to, you know, maybe off. track betting, bet there, and then they.

go to the pool hall, bet there. Try to. get a poker game, bet there. >> Try to go to Atlantic City on the. weekend, bet there. Just fullon gambling. junkies. Their whole life revolved. around gambling. >> They didn't care about anything. >> Smart because they know that the. probability that they're going to lose. more than they win. >> They were like a full-on methad that was. just chasing the high. I mean, there was. no thought of, hey, I don't have any. money and I'm 40. There was nothing like. that. It was just there was no It was. just I'm in this and this is what I'm.

doing. I need to I need to win. >> Right. >> Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. >> It's a terrifying addiction. >> It's terrifying. It's really really. >> because it's weird. It's like, oh my. god, what what hijacked your brain? A. >> and unlike other addictions, there's no. government program out there to help. you. And now we're making betting legal. Sports betting is now legal in the. majority of states. So, it's like and. you know, we've got ESPN and all these. big companies. >> making money from it. >> I know, but I'm not opposed to that. Here's the because I don't have a. gambling problem. So, if like.

>> but the I I agree that you the problem. is not that you're making money from the. betting, but then knowing that gambling. is a problem and that there is. addiction, then you should be able you. have to it is your responsibility to set. aside some money to try to figure out. how to address the problem of addiction. in gambling. >> Yeah. But I don't think there has been. an established solution for gambling. addiction. I think some people are going. to fall by the wayside and they've. always been that way. That that's my. take on it. It's like I'm not a gambling. addict, but like say if there's a boxing. match and like it's Terren Crawford.

versus Canelo Alvarez, I'm like I think. Terence Crawford's going to beat the. odds. I think he's going to beat him. That's what I was saying before the. fight. No, I didn't. But if I did, I. would have bet. >> But I would have bet a couple hundred. bucks or something, maybe a thousand, you know. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think the odds are. I mean, it might have been like two to. one for Canelo. So, you would have made. 2,000 bucks on a thousand, >> right? >> Uh, but. I don't have a problem with gambling, you know? So, it's not I think it should.

be legal, just like I think alcohol. should be legal. I think you should be. able to go to a store and buy alcohol, you know. I think most drugs should be. legal. >> I think the real problem is the fact. that they're illegal, which means you're. getting them from cartels, you know, and. but. >> agree. Then there's the dilemma of how. do you change that? Like would you just. rip off the band-aid and make everything. legal and then you become Portland for a. few years? The whole country is. And how many people die of overdoses. because of that? Like that's. >> I don't think is a good example because. they also didn't have the safety net. So.

that's what I. >> They were also super kooky. It's a super. kooky place to live anyway. >> Keep Portland weird. >> Mariana, I appreciate you very much. Uh. when you're done with the scammer thing, come back. I will. >> Please. I need to hear everything. Okay. All right. Um, one more time, the show. is called. >> Hidden Third. >> The Hidden Third. >> The Hidden Third. It's on YouTube on. YouTube.com/mariana. Vanzellar and we've got two episodes. already that premiere this week and it's. a weekly podcast. New episodes all the. time and you can also get it on Spotify,

Apple Podcasts, >> or wherever you get your podcast. >> All right, good luck with that. Thanks. for being here. Bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].