Joe Rogan Experience #2394 - Palmer Luckey

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> Um, these on. I haven't done the ball, but I. have done those knee chairs. >> Okay. >> They're a little annoying. You like. >> What about standing desks? You a. standing desk fan? >> No. >> Yeah. I when I use them, I usually have. lower back gets gets gets kind of sore. just standing there. I feel like some.

part of you should be relaxed and if. you're standing, you're going to want to. lean on something to have a. conversation, especially because I've. know some people do podcast standing up, like a standing up table. I'm like, okay, >> that's crazy. >> I I have a buddy of mine who's doing. >> a pro. Have you ever seen the the float. tanks where you float in the salt water? >> Yeah, we have one here. >> Oh, no. No way. >> Yeah. So, I know someone who is building. a rig with a waterproof keyboard, waterproof mouse, and a VR headset so. that they can have a float computing. rig. And they want to just they want to.

just they want to they want to program. while they're floating in space. >> And uh he hasn't he hasn't gotten all. the way there yet. The hardest part has. actually been the mouse. There's lots of. waterproof keyboards for various. industrial applications like you know so. you don't get metal shavings in them and. oil in them. But mice it's actually it's. actually harder. But. >> that makes sense cuz there's a roll. Well, it's a laser now. It used to be an. actual ball. >> That would have been really hard days. Yeah, the optic at this point. I don't. think it's that hard. I think he he's. been he's been screwing around with just. taking a normal one and then uh wrapping. it in in in Saran Wrap. But, you know,

that that's kind of splashproof, but not. not immersion proof. >> Is he actually underwater with the. setup? >> Yeah. So because if you're taking your. hands up out of the water, you're one, it's uncomfortable, two, they're. >> floating like this and the keyboard the. >> underwater. Yeah, exactly. So you're. you're floating at neutral position. basically. >> And just to code, he wants to code like. that. >> He wants to code. I think. >> must be a super weirdo. >> I I I want to do it for VR gaming. I. think that'd be really interesting kind.

of. >> if you can't if you can't simulate the. experience of your body being in the. game at least to forget that your body. exists and have the only thing you're. viewing be you know your your vision and. and the sound I feel like would be very. interesting experience. So I'm uh I'm. I'm begging off an hour in it for from. from him when he gets it done. But I I'm. I'm looking forward to that. >> I would let you use ours to try it out. but we just had a problem with one of. our pumps broke. So it's. >> Oh, that's a bummer. >> Yeah. flooded everything with salt. water. It's It's weird there. It's a.

weird Have you done it? >> I have actually never done it. I'm so. fascinated by it and I've actually. booked a session at some of those like. float tank companies several times and. then every single time my schedule has. intervened and it turns out that I've. not been able to do it. So, >> you should get one for your place. >> Maybe I should. I should probably try it. first, right? >> Or it's just so good. I should have it. >> Yeah, you'll love it. Yeah, it's very. relaxing, too. And it's really good for. thinking. Like if you have a thought and. you're just like [ __ ] around with it. in your head, you're like, I don't know. what to do with this.

>> You're in there. You have zero. distractions. It's like your your mind. has more computational power that's. available because even though you don't. think about it, like right now we're in. these chairs. Your your butt's touching. the chair, your feet are on the floor, your hands on the table, your clothes. are on your body, there's all these. different things that your body is. recognizing as input. When you take. those away, you're it's like if you're. having a conversation, there's a bunch. of people right beside you with a. jackhammer. You're like, "This is too. distracting. Let's go over here." And.

you go to where in the park, it's nice. and peaceful. Now you can have a. conversation. It's so much easier. Well, you don't realize that like regular. everyday life, just establishing the the. the distance between the walls and. thinking about all the data, all that. stuff is your brain is computing this. >> Yep. >> In the silence of the float tank, there's none of that. And you don't feel. the water because it's the same. temperature as your skin. >> That's right. >> So you just. >> And it's all salt laden, so it's. isotonic. It's not exactly. >> You feel like you're flying. >> That's so cool. Yeah. I've done a lot of.

reading on it, and I'm super interested. in in the science of it, but I've never. actually managed to get into a float. tank, which is really embarrassing. I. mean, you'd think that a billionaire. would have the resources to get into a. bucket of saltwater. >> Yeah, you should have somebody make you. one. Have Have someone build you one at. your place? >> Oh, that'd be cool. Maybe get one made. out of wood instead of like the plastic. or. >> you want metal. Mine is Mine looks like. a giant meat locker. That's what it. looks like. Um, but the guy who made it. for me was like a mad genius. He died. unfortunately. He was a mad genius who.

also didn't believe in medicine and I. think he did he die of hepatitis? >> I don't I don't know. >> I think he died of hepatitis. >> Well, you'll have to show it to me so. that I can check it out. >> It's dope. Yeah. Um, but it's it would. definitely be at some point in time the. best way to disconnect from your natural. environment. If they do come up with. some sort of haptic feedback that's like. or whether it's some sort of a neural. interface that completely changes, >> you know, the environment around like.

like you drop into it. That would be the. perfect environment to do it in salt. water. >> Yep. Well, I mean, that's been my that. was always my dream in the in the old, you know, my first company was Oculus. And so, like, that was my dream was to. just fully feel like you were inside of. the video game completely. Forget about. >> How old were you when you started. working there? >> So, I started building virtual reality. headset prototypes when I was 14 or 15. And then I I built the first prototype. of what I'd call the Oculus Rift at 16. And then I formally turned it into a.

company when I was 18, launched the. product when I was 19. Uh, and then sold. the company a few years later to. Facebook for a few billion dollars. So. it was kind of a it was kind of a crazy. arc for me. I was like you that that was. I was putting myself through school. >> Did you work with Carmarmac? >> Yeah. So well Carmarmac was. >> so uh John Carmarmac was one of my. heroes growing up. >> Love that dude. And it was one of these. crazy things where the universe kind of. brought us together. I was working on my. VR technology and nobody was paying.

attention to VR back then. It was a kind. of a crazy person thing. Nobody was. paying attention what I was doing, but I. was posting about it on this internet. forum. And then John Carmarmac started. posting on that same forum asking for. help modifying his own Sony headmounted. display that he had bought to reduce the. latency. And so I gave him a bunch of. input on why he couldn't do it, why it. was a large impossible project. And. because I had been trying to do the same. thing and then he ended up seeing the. work I was doing on the Oculus Rift and. he said, "Hey, Palmer, can I buy one of. these from you?" Said, "Well, I'm not.

really selling these yet, but uh I'm I'd. be happy to lend it to you for free.". And so I sent it to him. He ended up. writing a review and posting it on his. blog and said it was the the best VR. experience the world has ever seen. He. introduced me to Sony. They tried to. hire me to run their VR research and. development lab. I turned him down. They. doubled the offer. I turned that down. Um, and then so John was kind of the guy. who got me like really he's kind of the. first guy who got any public attention. for me where everyone was like, "Oh, John Carmarmac says this is important.

then this must be important." And then. if you could believe it, two years later. after I started Oculus and started. selling these, he actually left ID. Software and became the CTO of Oculus. So we got then then I then I had the the. incredible. >> opportunity to work with one of my. childhood heroes as my CTO. That was. what year was that? >> That was 2012. >> He came on the podcast I think 2016 you. brought one. >> Yeah. >> So So yeah, he joined in 2013. So some I think it was June of 2013. So. about a year after I started Oculus is.

when he joined a CTO. M well he showed. us um and he was doing whatever the one. is where you I guess you have. drumsticks. Is that what you have? And. you're whacking stuff as it comes out of. the sky. He showed us that and like what. a workout with probably with BeatSaber. Yes. >> He's a huge Beat Saber fan. >> Oh, he was going nuts. And he was doing. it really fast. I was like this is nuts. >> It's actually it's like it is good. fitness. It is good coordination. training. It really like Beat Saber was. great because it really busted this myth.

that VR was this like you know totally. inactive be a fat lazy slob thing. VR. gaming at least as it exists today takes. a lot more caloric expenditure than any. other type of gaming. I mean like for. sure and like even more than like other. motion games like remember Wii bowling. and Wii Sports like that's like one. movement every once in a while like Beat. Saber is a full body workout. >> What's really impressive is the boxing. games. Mhm. >> The boxing games are a really good. workout. >> Did you play I think one of them was. Creed by a company called Servios.

>> I don't remember what the name was. We. had a couple different ones at the old. studio in LA. And you I'd work out with. it. I'd put it on and you know, you do a. round with these virtual boxers and. >> you really get a workout in. Your feet. hurt like you're like, "Wow, I'm I'm. utilizing a lot of movement here.". >> Yep. You know, the the company that did. a few of those boxing games, it's this. LA studio called Servios. And the two. co-founders of that were actually guys. who worked with me in the army research. lab that I worked in before starting. Oculus. So it's it's one of those.

>> teeny tiny worlds. There were there were. so few of us that really believed in VR. in those days. >> Is there a VR that like a professional. boxer could use? Like could you get VR. to the point where you could program it. with AI? So you could take like the. movement of like a Sugar Ray Leonard or. something like that and actually program. it into the machine. >> So I'd go further. It's not just. something you could do. It's being done. There are boxers who are using this. technology really. Um, so like I I I I I. know uh I know Logan Paul and Jake Paul.

and have talked with them a lot about. using virtual reality and how they're. using it to do combat training. That's. right. >> Wow. Well, my thought was that you could. actually emulate an opponent. >> So like say if you were supposed to. fight Canelo Alvarez. Well, we have this. database of all Canelo Alvarez's. performances. Yep. and training footage. so you could calculate what his normal. exchanges are, what his opening moves. are, how he how he sets the hook up off.

the jab, he faints the right hand, >> giving me crazy deja vu. Let me send you. let me show you the text message that I. was just doing with Logan Paul last. night. >> Um, I said, "It's time to have robots fighting. people. My dream is that you can have. robots perfectly tuned to match your own. current physical capability and. progressively ramp up against yourself. over time or against the greats like. we're talking through like now this was. less VR. Well, are you even following. some of the robot fighting league stuff?

Having the so that's controlled by VR. You put on a VR headset, you put on a. motion capture suit, you teaoperate a. robot. >> One of the things I've been talking with. Logan about is the idea of having where. you have one tea operated robot versus a. actual human. But then what we were. talking about is this idea of having the. robot learn from like you're saying. learning from footage of of not just the. greats but even yourself so that it can. be basically ex you could fight against. your style your exact level of strength. and then of course you want to fight. against the greats and see just how far. you have to go and just get the [ __ ].

kicked out of you. >> The other thing I was thinking about. what a robot could do if you programmed. it cor correctly it would have a really. accurate sense of distance so it would. be able to touch you instead of hurt. you. >> It could pull its punches. Yes. The best sparring partners. >> Someone who can. So, so the mechanics of. it are all the same, but you don't have. the follow through of. >> actually. It would have more control. probably even than a person, right? So, like you think of the precise movements. that surgical robots are able to do. >> Absolutely. Um, well, I mean, you could.

do this. >> The main thing that robots have is they. have just such fast reaction time. And. so, you could put sensors in like a. glove. You could have it where the. moment that it hits or even a ranging. sensor where I mean it could stop a. millimeter away from you. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You could you could totally you. could to you could totally do that. >> Is this something that someone's working. out with? This is about Fight again San. Francisco. >> Yeah. So actually so actually this is. this is a buddy of mine who's been. working in VR for a really really long.

time. So it's again what a tiny what a. tiny world of weird wackos. Um but yeah. six live has been working on uh which is. his real name by the way. Um, uh, he's. been working on VR stuff for the past 15. years, and he recently got into doing. this this this robot robot combat sports. league. >> So, that's that. >> They're doing a big They're doing a big. US versus China fight in December. If. you want me to get you tickets, I can I. can make it happen. I can pull some. strings. >> Where is it? Where's it taking place? >> I think it's going to be in San. Francisco.

>> That's funny. I try to stay out of San. Francisco. I also don't really want to. watch robots fight. No, >> I I don't mind watching them on TV, but. yeah. >> Do you ever uh you ever see you ever. read manga or anime about fighting? >> No. >> One of So, I'm I'm I'm I got to admit. I'm less of a fighting guy, more of an. anime manga guy, but I love some of the. just ridiculous inventions that then. make you think if there might be. something there. So, like Fist of the. North Star, there's a move that a guy. learns and uh it's it's like a I forget.

I forget the name of it, but it's like a. double punch. So what you do is you fold. your fingers, >> okay? >> And you punch the guy, right? >> And then like his skin recoils it, you. know, delivers the full hit. And then. you fold your fingers in. >> So you hit fold your fingers and then. punch again. And it's like one punch, but it's a double punch. And then one of. the culmination of his training is where. his master shows him that there's. actually a final step. You can see where. this is going. It's a triple punch. So. you punch him like this and then like. this and then like this. And mostly that.

stuff is nonsense and never going to. work with a person. But it makes me. wonder if a robot could do it. >> Well, you would need momentum, right? I. mean, if it's generating force, your. force would be stopped with the first. blow to be able to generate additional. momentum in a short distance. It' be. very difficult. >> for a person. See, what I'm thinking is. a robot would allow you to do this this. type of. >> muscles. It's using a different force. >> Exactly. So your first one would carry. all your inertia through and then you. could get a second one.

You want the most power in the first. shot and concentrate only on that. >> But what if you could do the most power. in the first shot and then another. followup shot anyway? Yeah. Or like you. hit him and it throws him back of it and. then the moment you know the distance it. creates. >> Look, I'm not a fighting expert. I'm a. I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a computer kid. >> The thing that what bothers me about it. is the human body is inherently flawed. It's not a good design and it's not a. good design for fighting. So, if I was. going to design something to fight. something, I would never design it after. a human. I would use an animal or.

something more destructive. I wouldn't. use something so vulnerable or something. with like shitty mechanics. >> Well, it ends up looking like a. battlebot probably, you know, something. heavily shielded and armored and it's. got a big spike on an arm. >> It would be like that. That's what you. would have for a robot to fight because. a human is just too goofy. >> Well, I mean, that's why the stuff that. I make for the Department of Defense or. I guess now the Department of War, none. of it looks like a human. I mean, we're. making robots for fighting and they all. have very hyper specialized forms and. some of them look a bit like sharks or a.

bit like birds, but generally, yeah, you're right. The human form is not the. one that you would actually base a. Terminator off. >> No, it's terrible. It's terrible form. Although I would say one of my I I don't. I don't think James Cameron ever really. explored this in Terminator, but my my. personal kind of like a like like a head. cannon theory would be that the reason. that Skynet made the Terminators into a. humanoid form is because maybe there is. really some hope in that there's. something of of humanity left in it. you. know, like if if it was truly a.

merciless killing machine with no. affiliation with humanity, why would it. make its agents uh you know, so so. uniformly human- shaped? Uh but that's. just that's just something I from time. to time. >> I think it's just for deception. around the the later ones truly were for. deception, but if you look at a lot of. the Flashes into the future, they don't. have meat shielded Terminators. there's. lots of like T-series uh humanoid combat. robots that are just walking around as. bare metal skeletons. And so I I feel.

like that it's some it's almost like an. admission that the AI. >> does see itself in the in the in the. mind of it sees itself as a creation of. man. It sees itself in the in the eyes. of man. >> That's what's really creepy, right? Cuz. that's in the Bible. God created man in. his image. >> That's exactly what I was thinking. is. like it's it's very much like it. realizes it was created in man's image. and and derives some sort of. satisfaction or value from that. I don't. know if that's good or bad, but. >> cycle and that's how life eventually.

does create artificial life. Well, I. mean, you're familiar with all like, you. know, the like all the all the theories. around uh you know, like uh humanity. being like planted here by an alien and. and like that that that's that's always. interesting cuz you know, you could. imagine a world where yeah, it is this. cycle of things that look kind of like. humans were on top of us and maybe. eventually there will be things that. look like humans. Is there some weird. discovery, recent discovery of an. asteroid where they picked apart whether. it's the the crucial amino acids for.

life or some sort of genetic material? >> You're talking about the the NASA. release that there were strong indicate. like bio signs that are that are. compatible with with what we would. expect from life. >> Yes, >> there was. And then I think. >> recently, right? >> It was recently, although they walked it. back pretty quickly, did they? um they. there was kind of an initial release. that said that we found that they were. strongly aligned with being biological. signals and then they re kind of reached. back they said well maybe not you do you.

>> I haven't dug into that one as deep as. others I've just been too busy really. lately and that you're right this is. like very recent news. >> I always wonder if someone got. overenthusiastic. or if someone said hey yeah why don't. you shut the [ __ ] up. >> you know like we're trying to slow this. whole release of alien technology. techology, alien life, slow it down. >> Trying to keep society together so we. have a stock market. >> Well, the good news, the good news in. this case is I think even even in the. most optimistic sense and optimism.

meaning I hope they find life. I think. it's going to end up being, you know, some microbes. It's not whatever they. saw was not consistent with, you know, oh dude, it's a it's a person in the. rock, right? >> Which is of course what we all want. We. want either people or, you know, little. green men or some something like that. >> That's probably going to be pretty far. away. >> It probably is. And it seems I mean you. my experience on this front is largely. from a military angle and looking at a. lot of the footage that's coming out and. and and a lot of the sensor feeds that. have come out and the thing that what we.

like what we really need even more than. discovering microbes like these flying. objects. >> Yeah. >> The problem is that most of them mo and. I'm not saying all of them most of them. they we're only capturing on let's say. one sensor like a camera is seeing it or. a radar is seeing it. very rare to get. both of those totally different types of. sensors looking at at the same time. It's relatively easy to imagine a world. where a sensor would have an error or an. artifact or even that's being actively. spoofed, right? Like people are actively. trying to trick it. You can make radars. see things that aren't there. You can.

make cameras see things that aren't. there if you're really smart about how. you interact with them. It's very hard. to make something that makes a radar and. a camera see something that isn't there. in a way that perfectly aligns with what. is there. Now, you saw the recent one. with the hellfire that was fired and and. it appears to have broken broken up but. then kept moving. >> That's interesting because now you have. something that's on a camera. >> and you sent another thing with a seeker. and it got there and it blew up. >> Is that definite real footage? >> I mean, I believe.

>> it's been verified. >> I am probably not in a position where I. should say if I know if it's been. verified, but I'll tell you this. I. believe the footage is real. Let's run. through perplexity and ask. >> What do you mean by verified though? >> Just ask if it has been verified that. this is legitimate footage from the. military of whatever they thought it was. going to be and a hellfire missile hits. it. >> I do believe that one of the one of the. members of the unidentified aerial. phenomenon committees in Congress. introduced it into a hearing.

>> That's where it came from. It came from. a hearing. >> Yeah. So So who released it? >> It didn't just like show up on Twitter. >> Okay. Which guy released it? Uh, I want. I don't know. I don't want to speak out. >> You saw the phenomenon? >> Yes. >> Fantastic. Dr. >> Really good. >> You know, the guy who did it is doing a. follow-up. Have you heard about this? >> What's he doing? >> This episode is brought to you by the. farmer's dog. We all know ultrarocessed. food isn't good for us as humans. Why. would it be any different for our dogs? The farmer's dog is real fresh food for.

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customers only." You know, I probably. shouldn't say too much more, but uh. there's there's there there's a there's. a follow-up to it that's coming. That's. even. >> Wait a minute. Wasn't the phenomenon. Jane Fox? James Fox. >> Was it James Fox? >> Was it the phenomenon James Fox? >> What say again? >> James Fox. Was that the phenomenon? >> Yeah. But the age of disclosure, >> he had moment of he had moment of. contact. He had the var. That's the. Virginia one. And then didn't he have. the phenomenon, too? >> Somebody did it. I saw it. >> Why did I think it was Fox? It is Fox.

Yeah, Fox has been on here a few times. He's got that crazy one about the. Virginia, Brazil sighting. Do you know. about that one? >> That one's nuts. Like the whole town saw. this thing. It crashed in in the '9s. >> and they have like a statue of this. thing like as you're entering into the. city and supposedly, this is the crazy. story. >> There was a a a wounded alien. >> One of the police officers carried this. wounded alien in the back of a car. They. brought it to a hospital. There's. records of them bringing this to the. hospital. The hospital said, "We can't.

handle this. We we have no cap. Take it. to a different hospital." So, they took. it to another hospital. >> Yep. >> Then the the guy who carried the thing. gets a severe bacterial infection that's. unresponsive to antibiotics and dies. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Young, healthy, you know, fighting. age man. >> gets this weird infection after handling. this creature. Multiple witnesses say. they saw another one of them. There was. like a couple of them. One of them was. injured that they picked up and then.

there was another one that was there and. then many people in the town said that. they saw another craft come by to. retrieve those aliens. >> It's a really nutty story because it's. the same story is told independently by. a bunch of people. >> You know, I've kind of got my retirement. figured out um and I have for a while. >> Can you just retire right now if you. wanted to? >> I mean, I could. It's just I what I'm. doing I think is important, you know? So, I I got to I got to see my mission. through like I'm the government is we've. been spending way too much money on.

defense, not getting nearly enough for. it. So, I started Andreal with the goal. of saving taxpayers hundreds of billions. of dollars a year. I need to I need to. see that through. But I want to get to. someday is uh see there's a handful of. these government groups that are going. around looking into things like what. you're talking about, you know, like. they look into the the strange. phenomenon, right? >> Um those groups do exist and I've. tracked down a few of them. The problem. is that they're not taken seriously. They're not wellunded and uh you know. they're they're subject to all the same.

normal rules as an average government. employee. Like their their problems are. not you know finding weird things. It's. stuff like getting approval to buy plane. tickets to go somewhere and you know. getting approval to stay there for two. nights versus versus one night really. >> Oh look it's just the it's the typical. government bureaucracy where they have. to make every penny count. They only. have so much money. Anyway, one of my. dreams is I'm going to at some point. when I'm retired, I'm going to go get. deputized by the government, go get my. federal badge, and uh I'll be the I'll. I'll be the government's uh uh privately. funded X-Files, and I'll just fly.

around. I'll fly around my own plane. I'll have my own team. We'll bring our. own sensors, our own computers. Oh, man. If only we could bring in this expert, but he's on the other side of the world. Say, "Bring him in. Bring him in. Send. send the plane. >> Put out the Palmer signal.". >> Yeah. Yes. Yes, sir. He'll be here in 12. hours. you know, like I I feel like. there's enough and not even just aliens. in general. There's enough weird stuff. going on. >> that it doesn't seem like a stretch to. have somebody or something that really. stays on top of that stuff. >> It seems like a very good idea. Did you.

see the Age of Disclosure? Did you see. the documentary. >> Age of Disclosure? No, I haven't seen. that. >> It's a new one and it it it has a. hypothesis. has a theory of why there. hasn't been disclosure and a lot of it. has to do with the legal implications. because too many people have been. misappropriating funds if this is real. So if this is real. >> like if there's recovered alien crash. objects if those have been parcelled out. to private companies. >> Exactly. That's exactly the dilemma. So. say if let's say just to make up a name.

Loheed Martin gets it and they have this. back engineered craft that they're. working on but then Rathon doesn't get. it. Rathon should be able to sue the. government like why' you do that is. unfair competitive advantage. Also the. people that are in charge of the. projects there's all this money that. they have to lie to Congress about. And. so in this documentary, one of the. things that they're proposing, guys like. Lou Alzando and like what is the path to. sanity with all this stuff, one of the.

things they're proposing is amnesty. Just give like blanket amnesty. Tell us. what the [ __ ] you know. Let's go. >> But then I limited time amnesty where. you say and and and the amnesty only. applies to what is disclosed exactly in. this amnesty. It doesn't apply beyond. that. >> But also if it's government, you know, there's a lot of fraud and waste. >> Sure. >> So even if if these guys are just. monkeying around with billions of. dollars, A little yacht here, a little vacation. here. Yep. Little Cayman Islands there. You know, like so stuff is probably it's. probably real ugly, >> right?

>> Which is And they've been doing this for. if it's real. They've been doing this. for decades. Yep. >> With no oversight. Yep. >> So they probably are they're a little. wild. They're a little feral by now. >> I mean, it's just across the board. Our. country's been spending so much money. >> on what is supposed to be for national. security, >> but in in re in in reality, it's a lot a. lot of has nothing to do with that. And. so that was why I got into that was why. I got into the defense space. It's like. if you. >> Isn't that with everything though, right? It's like that's how it is with. charities as well. >> It's with everything, but it's a. question of of how you can apply apply.

targeted pressure as a private. individual, right? So yeah, like. charities, there's a lot of lot of graft. going on, but what can I really do to. stop that at each of these charities, right? Like no, there's there's no one. charity that kind of dominates, right? It's it's it's a thousand it's a. thousand grains of rice. Um whereas the. Department of Defense is one giant. entity with a trillion dollar a year. budget. And so it's much easier like if. if you wanted to you call it like save. hundred billion dollars a year for. taxpayers, you kind of have to go after.

the big concentrated chunks like you. might be able to do that going after. like health care problems, maybe. education problems, definitely going. after Department of Defense problems. And I know a lot more about how to build. good technology than I do about. healthcare. And so, um, >> like if these if these were all private. companies, they would never survive the. way they're running. >> Correct. Well, I mean, yeah, these. government agencies, they when they make. mistakes, they don't go out of business. And in fact, they can make bad mistakes.

over and over and over again and still. remain in business. Uh, you it's I do. think I I think we're turning a corner. with some of this. Did you see um the. new Secretary of the Army, Dan. Driscoll's uh A USA talk yesterday? >> No, I did not. Oh man, it's it might be. worth pulling it up. He he pulls up this. piece um this piece of hardware and he's. like, "Hey, like this little thing, like. it costs this insane amount of money and. we were able to make it in our own lab. just 3D print it for like $10." And so.

that's what we're going to be doing now. Like and he like he killed the joint. like tactical vehicle program. He killed. this new kind of boondoggle of a robotic. c robotic tank pro program where it was. going to be millions of dollars for. these robot tanks that were going to get. blown up by $300 drones. And so he I. mean he that there's just kind of been. like no rules just going in and axing. all of the dumb stuff that doesn't make. sense and then taking a knife to these. companies that have been charging way. too much money which is very different. from the past. It's very rare. It has.

been a long time since you saw a. secretary level official being willing. to publicly contraindicate defense. companies and say you're screwing over. taxpayers and it ends here. Uh so I'm. I'm I'm actually pretty optimistic about. this across the services. I think like. pe people are fed up. There's. >> Do you think Doge sort of started that. ball moving and then. >> I I think it did. >> That direction is sort of momentum is. headed on its side right now. I think. the you the Doge thing was interesting.

because it wasn't even the techniques so. much like the techniques where they kind. of went into the data on like USAD and. looked through all of this stuff and. like like basically where the data. science of it is what allowed them to. find the graft that doesn't really apply. to finding the problems in DoD um. because it's it's just so much more. deeply buried but it kind of gave people. permission to go look at these things. like it gave people permission to even. say I believe there is billions of. dollars in waste in my department. I'm. going to do something about it. I don't.

think people felt like they had like. psychic permission to do that 5 years. ago. >> Oh, wow. That's interesting. >> Well, I mean, let's go to like kind of. like. >> So, you just didn't want to rock the. boat. >> I mean, let's go to like the height of. and you know, not even making it. political, just timeline wise. Go to the. like the middle of the Biden. administration. Could you imagine any. official in that area like secretary or. chair or anybody coming out and saying, "My department is wasting billions of. dollars. we are taking money from. taxpayers and using it on absurd.

nonsense. That would never happen 5. years ago. And I think the Doge stuff. gave people permission to come out and. say that and and and and for them to be. seen not as, you know, crazy, but as. just being honest about the truth. So. when you see like the secretary of the. army come out and say we are wasting. billions of dollars on total [ __ ]. and we're getting we are getting screwed. this that way and the other uh I think. that's a that's a really that's a really. good development. Well, it also seems. like it's a really shitty way to compete. with other countries that operate very.

efficiently like they're they're private. companies. Correct. Like other countries. like China, the government fully. embedded in private companies and the. private companies are competing military. fusion, >> right? >> Well, and there's it's it goes even. beyond that. We're like, you know, central planning has downsides, but it. does have upsides. And one of the. interesting things there is also like. there are some people who are being. accused of corruption because they just. want to kill them and get them out of. the way for political reasons. There's. other people who are actually corrupt. and they're going in and when people are. wasting money, they're not going and.

saying, "Oh, well, you kind of wasted a. few billion dollars, but you know, we're. going to give you another shot and try. this again." They just they just they. just they just imprison them for treason. and or kill them. I'm not saying that's. what we should do exactly, but I think. that there's a scale to all of these. things. On a scale of, you know, give. them another shot versus shoot them in. the head for treason, we could probably. move in that direction without going all. of the way and it would probably be. healthy for our country's national. security. Would that be the like if you.

ideally would it be that all this. national security stuff was handled by a. private company? Would that be like. ideal in terms of efficiency in terms of. technological innovation implementing. ideas? >> I think that look like private. >> not I'm not suggesting that. I'm just. saying like. >> No, no. So look, I've got. >> there's problems with running a. government. >> I mean look, I've got a strong I've got. a strong opinion here. I think that what. you want it's not a private company. It. needs to be done by competing entities, right? And so if it's private and and at.

least one of them has to be private. So. like I don't even really mind the. government doing something if they're. not being favored. In other words, if. there's some government office that is. competing with multiple private sector. >> post office versus UPS. >> Exactly. Although that's a little unfair. in that I don't know how deep. By the. way, I'm very deep on this. Like I don't. understand why we give the USPS a. monopoly on normal mail. Uh are you. familiar with this whole bit? >> Yeah. It's a little weird. >> It's like we've never. >> The only way you can get chickens. shipped, too. >> It's I didn't know that. >> Yeah. Yeah, if you have baby chicks,

they send them through the regular mail, but they won't send them UPS. >> That's so interesting. Well, it's the. same thing with firearms. You can only. send them USPS. You can't send them. So, like, I don't know why we've given a. private company a monopoly. Like, if. there was a private company that had the. same monopoly that the USPS does, and. they were using it to send, >> you know, a 100 pounds of junk mail to. every American every year, there's no. way they would survive. Like, like they. would be regulated out of existence. But, you know, is what you really want. is competition. You want organizations, private or public, that when they trip.

and fall, they skin their own knees. instead of getting bailed out by. taxpayers. You want them to, you live in. fear, be highly competitive. Um, and by. the way, >> their audits, by the way. >> Yeah. Exactly. And and and and they have. to survive an auditing process. They. have to be accountable to uh, you know, whether it's a board or to, you know, some committee. And the problem is right. now we don't have a lot of that. I will. say though you asked should you should. should these national security you know. programs be in the hands of private. companies. I think that's true for the. development of the technology. However,

it can never ever be in the hands of. private companies when it comes to the. actual national security policy of what. we are building or who we are building. it for or where it should go. Of course, >> I get I get people all the time who come. to me, usually people who are more. skeptical of government. Um, and yet. they say, "Palmer, aren't there. countries you would commit to never. building for?" You know, like, "Would. you just build for whoever gives you. money?" And I say, "Well, I look, I my. job is to do what the government tells. me. They're the, you know, they're the.

ones who decide who we're going to work. or not." And they say, "How could you do. that? How could you work with this. country or that country? How could you. build this type of system or that type. of system?" And my point to them is, do. you want to live in a corportocracy. where big tech CEOs get to decide the de. facto foreign policy and military policy. of the United States? Like, you should, if I were in a position to make those. decisions, something's gone very wrong. in this country because you can't vote. me out. You can't elect my competitor. And so, a lot of people who normally are. skeptical of the government and.

government power and overreach suddenly. they they they look to the private. sector for, you know, oh, like the. private sector is going to regulate. this. To me, that's the most like. cyberpunk dystopian thing either. Imagine like me and a bunch of weapons. executives sitting in a room be like, "So, which countries are on the green. list this year?" I don't know. I was. thinking we could sell some missile. defense to those guys and I think we. should sell some offensive weapons those. guys. Like, no. That that has to be that. has to be the government. Unless you. just don't believe in democracy at all, right? Like if you if you believe that. the system if that we cannot elect.

officials that are accountable, then. that's a different thing. But I I'm not. that blackpilled. I. >> I'm not that blackpilled either, but I'm. getting there. >> I know. Look, I'm Look, I sometimes I. see it too. I mean, I think that what it. is is you inevitably when you have a. pendulum, sometimes it will swing too. far. And I But I think the good news is. it can correct. I mean, like look at a. lot of our misadventures in the Middle. East is a really good example where. there were a lot of things like the. government caused a lot of things to. happen. I think never would have. happened had people really known the. truth behind a lot of those actions. But.

in the end, we did have the ability to. hold them accountable. Now, the real. problem is that people didn't hold them. accountable. Like, there's a lot of. people today where uh they don't they're. not really that worked up about some of. these people in government who lied to. us. But I I would say that's a fault of. the American people, not of the. democratic process. It just means people. don't care about that issue as much, which I think they should care more, but. >> I think they're also not that informed. like universally. >> Now, is is that because they don't want. to be or because they can't be? >> It's difficult because most people don't. have time. I think that's that's a big.

part of it. >> That does make it hard. That doesn't. make it hard. But I mean, I I I think. that, you know, not not not to butter. you up, but this is one of the things. where shows like yours have made a huge. difference where they've been able to. take things that are pretty complex for. a person to figure out from first. principles, stories that they would. never read about in establishment media. like, let's say, the New York Times or. the Wall Street Journal, which by the. way is dependent on continued access to. the US government. They can't just go. out and burn everybody in the government. or nobody will ever talk to them, right? you've taken a lot of these stories and. put them into a format where the guy. who's busy, he's, you know, he's in his.

truck, he's on his way to the work site. can actually become informed on these. issues. And as someone who was a. journalism major, I've been so happy to. see that shift cuz I wanted to be a. journalist because I there were no good. technology journalists and I was good at. technology. >> Figured I was going to beat all these. guys and be a better technology. journalist. That's interesting. >> In the end, I ended up dropping out of. school and starting Oculus instead. But. um. >> that worked out. This is an ad by. BetterHelp. We have a lot of big holidays coming up, but before you start preparing for. trick-or-treaters or make plans for.

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the right therapist for you, BetterHelp. can help you start that journey. Our. listeners get 10% off their first month. at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhp.com/jre. But yeah, I I I think you would agree it. is getting easier to become educated on. these things. Like what would you have. done? >> It is in America, but it's a little. disconcerting like when you see the way. they're handling things in Europe. >> Oh, sure. >> Like it's getting really weird in the.

UK. 12,000 arrests this year for social. media posts about immigration and now. now they want everybody to have a. digital. >> for that meme, mate. >> Yeah, it's getting really weird. And you. know as that. >> arrests for uh uh posting uh disturbing. or offensive content. >> Yes. Or annoying. >> Can I share a little story there? >> Sure. >> Um this has been so funny watching. watching this in in the UK because so I. the first thing I ever did. >> that anyone cared about was called Mod. Retro. So, it was this internet forum.

for people modifying game consoles, making making making portable versions. of v of of old game consoles, upgrading. modern game consoles. Anyway, when we. started the site, it was me and a few. other people who were kind of running. it. I was the founder and there were a. few other co-administrators. And one of. them was this British guy who went by. the online handle of Bacteria. And I. won't say his real name because it. doesn't matter. Um, but he he was a. British guy. He worked in um he worked. in uh very very low-level British. government. So like not a higher up at.

all but he worked in a government. government agency government office and. um he was always I think of all the. people on this forum which was mostly. like teenagers and college students he. was kind of like the older guy and he. says oh we need to be kind about what we. say you know that we we shouldn't say. anything that is bad and he was always. pushing that our rules should say it's. that it was against our rules to offend. anybody and you shouldn't be able to say. anything uh that was that was that was. too offensive and uh you we mostly just. made fun of him. Aha, he's the old. British man, you know. Uh, and but. what's interesting is he ended up.

eventually leaving the site because he. thought people were being too mean to. each other and he started his own. competing website and the rule number. one was uh no content that make that may. make any member feel demeaned, uncomfortable or insulted. We're like, well, I mean, and we we're all making. fun of that. We were making our own. little, you know, image macros and memes. about it. Like we actually made some. fake ads for his website and put them on. Facebook and it said come join the you. know the bacteria's website. Nobody will. say anything to you that might offend or.

displease you. Um but what's what's. interesting is as all this UK stuff has. has has come around I remember these. kind of like longforgotten childhood. memories. I was like 13 or 14 at the. time and I think it really is partly a. cultural reflection for them. Like there. are a lot of people in the UK who. genuinely think it's good to police this. stuff. They don't want people to be able. to go out and just cause a ruckus, you. know, to to say things that are. insulting in the streets. And of course, you have people who are protesting. against that. But I think that also. their surveillance state, you know,

where there's cameras everywhere, it's. actually a reflection of different. cultural norms. And so, uh, the one good. thing about what's going on in the UK is. I don't think it would ever come over to. America very easily because culturally, you know, we're not walking around. feeling like it's like we don't we don't. feel like it's a crime to insult people. They feel like it should be. Maybe. perhaps some of some of them do, but I. think it's so overwhelmingly moving. towards tyranny. >> I think it's the majority. That's the. crazy. >> You think the majority of people want it. that way? >> I think that the majority of people in. the UK have no problem with people who.

post spicy memes getting a visit from. the local constabularary. >> Wow. Really? That that is that has been. my experience. Now, there are people who. disagree, of course, and like I would. say maybe it's a growing group. They're. they're a highly visible group. are. protesting. But I I if if I had to bet. there most people don't care. Most. people in the UK just don't care about. it one way or the other. And I think the. group of people who are on the side of. the control is larger than the people. who are on not on the side. By the way, similar thing in China. Um you know,

people talk about Chinese censorship on. things like, you know, Kean Men Square. And. >> that's actually the majority Chinese. opinion too. If you talk to most Chinese. people and you say, "Well, what do you. think about the fact that they're. censoring all this discussion?" the. typical and I I know lots of people in. China, they say that's an irrelevant. issue from 30 or 40 years ago. It. doesn't matter. Anyone who's trying to. make every discussion about Tianaan. Square is just a troublemaker. And I. don't care if they're shut down. I'm. glad that they're not clogging the. comments. And I'm glad those people are. being are are being pushed out of of the. conversation. And like that's actually a.

pretty normal opinion. Don't don't cause. trouble needlessly. Now, these same. people might say, "I have strong. opinions about the COVID lockdown, information lockdown in China." Like. they might say, "I don't like that the. Chinese government is locking down on, you know, locking us in our apartments.". But when it comes to discussion of. political issues, China in general, they. think that people who bring this up. like, "You would just be a. troublemaker.". >> They just say, "Ah, that Joe Rogan, he's. a troublemaker. Why is he bringing up. all these problems from the past? It's. irrelevant. Why why why are we why why. are we allowing this guy to take up our.

public spaces?" Like if you're public. protesting in public space, they're not. here. We you've probably seen protesters. who you didn't agree with and you said, you know, I'm glad they're I'm glad. they're doing something they believe in. >> I'm glad George Soros is sending them. checks. >> Maybe not those, but but but true. grassroots. You know, the guys who. scribble their look, it's it's important. in China important part of our first. amendment. >> People in China see that and they say, "Look at those look at those. troublemakers ruining my beautiful. public space." So, it's a very. interesting cultural value difference. >> Well, they also don't have any. perception of the ability to change the. government. >> That's right. That's right. >> There's no power. I think we can do.

this. I think we can push them out. I. think nope. >> Yep. >> You ain't You ain't fixing [ __ ] So, put. your nose down. Get to work. >> I wonder if that really is the. difference. I mean, in Europe has to be. >> Well, in Europe, they've kind of. resigned themselves to the fact that. they're not participating. >> Yep. >> You know, it's not. >> it's a lot easier to be a political when. it's a feudal exercise. >> Yeah. It's like, what are you going to. do? Stop being a troublemaker. >> Of course, you know, part of this it. comes down to an attitude. I mean, you. you're probably familiar with the. numbers in the American Revolution. Only. about 3% of America supported the. revolution. It was it was it was a.

really niche movement. >> of very dedicated motivated people. And. so um the best way to probably stop that. 3% from existing in China is to convince. them that it's feudal and to to to kind. of fuel that cynicism almost. >> Yeah. Well, that's. >> you see this in Russia, too. >> Military dictatorships. So, same deal. >> One of the conclusions I've come to, you. know, I I I work in the weapons industry. and I've seen a lot of cool stuff. I've. seen stuff that the US is making that. I'm making. I'm familiar with a lot of.

the weapon systems that uh Russia and. China have in fielding or in progress. Some of the stuff that China and Russia. are doing, I mean, it's as sci-fi as. what the United States is doing. But. I've come to the conclusion that their. most powerful weapon is not any bomb or. missile or drone. It's their ability to. control people's minds through the. media, through propaganda, through kind. of state pressure. M. >> they convince them to believe things. about the world that weren't true that. aren't true and then they're they're. basically making people willing to fight.

for causes that don't really exist. Like. good example of this is Ukraine. A lot. of the Russians who went to fight in. Ukraine in the early days, I think the. truth is out now, but when they were. first invading, they were told that the. people of Ukraine want to be liberated. You're going to be a hero. You're going. to go over there. Like they desperately. want Russia to save them and reunify. them. And it's it's just this, you know, keeveled, you know, cabal funded by the. west with that as that's barely holding. on to the country and and keeping and. staying in power. Um, and people in.

Russia really believed that like the the. guys who were fighting on the front. lines, the guys who were flying tanks. and helicopters, they believed it. When. when I went to when I went to Ukraine. during the war, uh, one of the things. that I got to see was uh there was this. helicopter wreck. It was an attack. helicopter that was trying to seize an. airfield of a of a private aerospace. company and the guys actually shot it. down themselves. Like they showed me. videos of them wearing polo shirts. shooting down the helicopter in their. parking lot. I mean it's like crazy. [ __ ]. >> So the the the pilots the pilots kind of.

go bag, you know, this bag with all of. his emergency and survival gear in it. It had three or four days of water, three or four days of food, another. flight uniform, his dress uniform with. dress shoes because they were told there. were going to be they said this is going. to be a 5-day military operation. There's going to be parades. So, dress. uniform and then 50 condoms. This guy. thought that he was going to be he. thought the women were going to be all. over him. They were going to he was. going to need 50 condoms for the.

post-war celebration. >> Wow. >> And to me, that speaks to how. brainwashed this guy was. And remember, helicopter pilots aren't like the dumb. grunt dragging. I mean, he's probably. one of the more highly educated people, >> right? >> And they convinced him that the people. of Ukraine wanted him to liberate them. and that they were going to be so happy. to see him that he was getting his dress. uniform and 50 condoms. >> Wow. >> And there were similar stories a lot. >> 50 is a lot. >> That guy's [ __ ] up a storm. That's. crazy. >> I I will give him a little 50 condoms. doesn't take up that much space in your. bag, but but it's but it's a lot. It's a.

lot. Yeah. >> And the this wasn't like Well, this. wasn't the only guy. Like this was. actually pretty common. >> Everybody had 50 condoms. >> I don't know if everybody had 50, but a. lot condoms. >> Well, a lot of guys had condoms. And a. lot of people brought their dress. uniforms. They thought that this they. were going to roll into Kev, take over. The people wanted them to be in power. and that they were going to be marching. around town. People say, "Look, it's our. liberators, our saviors. Go.". >> Now, of course, that's totally divorced. from reality. like whatever you however. you feel about the politics of Ukraine.

and Russia and America cuz they're all. tightly intermingled, >> right? >> That's clearly not reality. And so what. I worry about is like the easy one is. >> if China invades Taiwan, they're going. to come up with a similar story. They're. going to trick their people into. thinking, "Oh, Taiwan wants to be. reunified. You're fighting for the. better cause." But then your really. spooky thing is what happens when our. media pulls the same stunt. I would. argue that what we did in the Middle. East was driven by really not that. different, right? I mean, a lot of the. justification for going over there and.

doing this nation building, I mean, we. were told all these stories, oh, they. want they don't want they they want to. get out from under the Taliban. They. don't want to have these, you know, tribal rule. They do want democracy. And. in reality, we were kind of sold a bill. of goods. Just wasn't true. So, it's. easy to make fun of the Russian with his. 50 condoms, but we're not really that. much better. Well, we also had a very. distorted sense of what war is in the. 20th century and in the 21st century. because of Desert Storm. >> Yes. >> So, Desert Storm, we were like, "Where. the [ __ ] [ __ ] We're just going to.

roll in and kick everybody's ass." And. and it happened so quickly with so. minimal casualties. >> And my grandpa, he wasn't military, but. he he was a United Airlines pilot for 45. years, and he was part of the civilian. support element for Desert Storm. So he. actually has a letter from the Secretary. of the Air Force that they sent to all. of the commercial pilots who were. bringing troops and equipment back and. forth for a few days. I mean they were. they were flying like you know crazy. 24-hour shifts getting people in and. out. Um but I mean like I remember my. grandpa he you know he came out of that.

saying man nobody can stop us. I mean we. are just we are unstoppable. If we want. to go in and do something we just go get. it done. And I mean he he was convinced. you know I but you're right. I think. everybody was convinced by. >> that's what everybody thought in the. 1990s. They thought that the United. States government and the military was. so much more powerful and it probably. was. >> It was. >> for a while. >> Relatively relatively speaking for a. while. Technology seems to be shifting. all that stuff in a very weird place. >> Yep.

>> And this is where I get concerned with. China because they have complete. compliance. Y like their government and. their private corporations, they're are. the same. They work together and the. stuff that they're producing in terms of. like if you pay attention to their. electric cars. >> Oh yeah. >> They have a 300 mph car now. >> They're and and their cars are extremely. cheap and they are extremely good. They. have extremely good. >> Really nice cars. >> Crazy technology in terms of like the. ability to absorb bumps. You've seen how.

smooth they are. They put champagne. glasses on them. >> So one of the So I I will that one I. will push back a little bit. I've seen. the demo you're talking about. There are. German and US cars that do that type of. thing, but they're not the cars that. people want here. So, this this is a. whole another interesting cultural. thing. >> No, what are the cars? >> Well, so so think so it it's this is. this is one of my this is such an. interesting rabbit hole. So, in China, people with money don't drive cars. They're driven. That like that that is. the culture. You don't drive. You are.

driven if you have if you have really. any money. Of course, there's a few rich. guys buying sports cars, but in general, the wealthy in China don't buy cars to. drive themselves. That's interesting. And so, for example, Tesla has a China. exclusive model of the Model S, which. has teeny tiny little front driver and. passenger seats, and then it has two. seats in the rear with extremely long. leg room. Not like three in a row, but. like just two giant chairs. And they. kind of cram the they cram the driver. way forward to create this gigantic P. I.

think it doesn't even have a trunk. That's right. They pulled the trunk out. of it even. or maybe maybe it's just way. smaller. >> And in China, that's what people want. So like their bestselling MercedesBenz, even American brands like Buick, we have. these cars that are made to be driven. in. So as a result, their most. luxurious, most expensive cars have. suspension that is designed to absorb. all of the bumps, be extremely smooth. because, you know, riding in the back. and it creates terrible mushy road feel. for the driver. Like in America, rich. people, they want to drive and you want.

to feel the road. you know, you you want. that sports car and even our SUVs, people generally want that sports car. like feel. And so I I guess I will push. back only on the champagne glass thing. because I've seen people saying this a. lot. >> Believe me, there are a handful like. that. You can buy an American Buick. >> or like or or like or or even a Mercedes. that is that good, but they're just not very popular here. in China. They're m cars like that are. much more popular. cars that feel like. [ __ ] to drive for the driver and are.

super mushy and bouncy, but for the guy. in the back, his champagne glass doesn't. fall over. >> That's interesting. So, when it gets to. a certain price point, then it becomes. all about the passenger. >> Exactly. Well, and and it's almost it's. it's not even when it gets to a certain. price point. Long before you're buying a. $100,000 car, you're being driven. around. Like even if you're even if even. if if you're halfway there, you're being. driven around. People again, rich people. there, they don't drive. They are. driven. It's a it's a it is a cultural. thing. It's a sign that you've made it. as well. >> Oh, >> and and also remember that their their.

wages are so much lower that it's much. more accessible. It's kind of like how. you have these countries where like. almost anybody who's middle class uh in. like the in like Southeast Asia has a. live-in uh uh nanny and a live-in. housekeeper. It's it's it's a little bit. like that where like if you get to a. certain point uh and that happens pretty. fast, you have a driver. And if you. don't have a driver, people are like, "What what the hell's going on?" Like. you're you're an eccentric. If you are a. rich guy who drives himself around. >> That's weird. >> It is weird. >> But they do have sports cars over there.

Like the electric sports car that goes. 300 miles an hour. >> They do. And well, and I would say. largely those are export focused. China. know the broader markets want this. They. sell them in America at all. >> They don't. But that's largely due to. American policy being very protectionist. against Chinese cars. The reason that. Chinese manufactured cars have not taken. over the US is not because Americans. don't want them. And by the way, >> that seems kind of crazy because. Japanese cars are ubiquitous. >> Japanese cars are ubiquitous from. Japanese brands, but many or most of.

them are actually Exactly. Like like the. most American car you can buy, I think. right now. >> it's either a Nissan or a Toyota outside. of Tesla. Like Teslas are made in the. US, but I I think the most. >> I can't remember. It's either a Nissan. or a Toyota is the most American pickup. you can buy right now. Wow. And it's. because we have a lot of our parts, even. for our US-made cars, made in Mexico, made in Canada, or made in Japan. Some. parts trick for someone who wants to. drive a Chevy cuz they feel like it's an. American brand. I'm buying American. I'm.

a. >> helping American jobs. >> But here, but here's the Well, this is. this is the point I was trying to get to. is here's the problem. Let's say you. said, "We're going to make an. all-American version of the Chevy, and. it's 10% more." People wouldn't buy it. Like that's when when I say that like. people I think unfortunately would buy. these Chinese cars if they were for sale. in the United States. Pe people can say. they want to support the US but at the. end of the day they they they want to. provide the best quality of life for. their family. They have a fiduciary duty. to do so. Yeah. And so if they need to. buy like if if they have the choice.

between an American truck or a Chinese. truck, a Chinese new TV and a Chinese. new computer and a Chinese new HVAC. system to replace one and their phone. I. how can I blame them for choosing the. Chinese one? >> The only way we can solve this is for. the United States to become competitive. with China again, which means we need to. get our energy costs down. We need to. get our resource extraction cost down. Like you know why these cars in China. are cheap? It's not magic. It's because. the cost of resource extraction is.

lower. The cost of making steel and. aluminum is lower. The cost of uh. building a factory is lower. And that's. why you're able to buy a awesome car for. $10,000 in China. And here the cheapest. thing you can buy is a ship box for 17. or 18 grand. And I mean like it's bad. Like have you ever driven a $17,000 car? >> What do they have that's 17,000? What. can you buy? >> I think you can buy a new. >> Chevy Volt or something. So, not not uh. so there's the I think you can buy a. Chevy Spark, which is actually not an. electric car. The Bolt the Bolt was was. an electric platform. So, I think you. can buy a Chevy Spark. I think you buy a.

Nissan Versa. Those are the two cheapest. cars in America right now, I think. Um. both of them, I believe you can get them. out the door for less than $20,000. And. uh look, they're I I'm I'm I'm sorry. Chevy. I'm sorry Nissan. I like those. brands, but these cars are not the. stewards of the brand. They're the. they're the college student ship boxes. >> Just transportation. >> And you can buy a car like that in China. for three or $4,000. >> Three or four grand will get you a car. that here is almost 20 grand. And again, it's it's not magic. They're not gen.

And people also like they kind of have. this there's this current attempt to. kind of mythologize like, oh well, they're geniuses. Like they're just so. good at it. If we would just do the. basics right, we can be competitive. But. we but we aren't doing the basics right. We've made energy so competitive and. materials fabrication so expensive. I. mean, how could we compete? >> I was watching an interview where I. believe it was someone from Ford, one of. the engineers from Ford made a visit to. China and. >> it was the CEO of Ford even better. And. he went with he went with his whole.

engineering team. >> Yeah. And was humbled. >> That's right. >> Just like, oh no. >> Well, I think he said when he came back, he said, I wanted to take the SUV I was. driving back home with me. I mean, that's like like he said, it's that it's. that good. I didn't want to stop driving. it. >> That seems kind of [ __ ] I mean, that's very anti-competitive of us. >> You mean they were locking the Chinese. out? >> That's kind of a [ __ ] ass move. >> I look I I so like I lean libertarian. and in general I'm a fan of free. markets, but the there is something that. makes us tricky though.

>> Uh. >> you tank the economy. >> Well, there's tank in the economy and. there's also it isn't actually free. So, we do need to do a better job on the. basics. But China is also subsidizing. these, right? So they're they're they're. actually putting money from other. industries to prop up these other. industries. >> And so even if you let them freely. compete, like if you let them go. toe-to-toe, >> China would be thrilled if they could. subsidize their way into destroying the. American automotive apparatus. >> Partly for economic reasons, but there's.

another reason that I don't know if. you've thought of. >> How did the United States win World War. II? Just big I know that's a big picture. question. >> It was manufacturing. >> Exactly. And that manufacturing, some of. it was new factories, but most of it was. taking over old factories. So, we took. all of our uh farm implement factories, you know, like John Deere and. Caterpillar, they were building tanks. and guns. We took all our automotive. factories, we had them building. aircraft, we had them building weapons, we had them building missiles. In fact, we even designed those weapons so they.

could be manufactured by those plants. that like to the literally the specifics. of how thick of a gauge of metal you. could bend to a certain radius. We were. limited by the automotive manufacturing. machines as to what we could do in. aircraft. And so we we won because we. had all this automotive and and other. industrial capacity. China would love to. wipe out the American automotive. industry partly for economic reasons. because it also means we will never be. able to fight a war against them. If. imagine in America with not like we've.

lost a lot of manufacturing. You're. probably familiar with that. I mean like. we we don't make nearly as much as we. used to, but we still make a few things. We still have some things that we do and. cars is one of them. And we even export. those cars. Like we're we're doing okay. on cars. If a if China could wipe out. our industrial capacity entirely, they. never need to worry about fighting a war. with the US again because they know that. we wouldn't be able to get back in the. game fast enough to matter. And so that. that's that's China's aim there. And it. gets back to what you talked about.

earlier. >> It's the civil military fusion. So this. is a it's a there's a there's the. economic war and the kinetic war that. they could win with one move which is. out competing our our automotive. industry. >> That's interesting. I never did think of. that. Well, and like and I to think. about this all the time because unlike a. lot of these other defense companies. that are designing weapons that can only. be made by really fancy high-end bespoke. factories, we're designing weapons that. can be made in existing American. industrial capacity. So like we make. this uh line of cruise missiles, the Bar.

the Barracuda. We make three different. Barracuda missiles. It has 90% fewer. parts than legacy cruise missiles. It. can be made with 10 tools that all exist. in every automotive plant. So, you could. make this missile at mass scale in any. GM facility, in any Ford facility. And. that's really important for us because. if you if you can only make your. missiles in this specialized factory. that took you 10 years to set up, well, what what do you what in the world do. you do when you need a hundred times. more of those missiles made every day? You're you're just kind of screwed. And.

so, the United States has been doing. better at this. I think like the Air. Force is doing better, the Navy's doing. better, the Army's doing better. Like. the the army has a whole transformation. initiative where they want all of their. new weapon systems to be highly. manufacturable at scale using real. industrial capacity and working with. private companies from the beginning to. make sure that any that they want to. make sure that any new system that they. are building can be built by the. American industrial economy not you know. not only these specialized you know.

specialized aerospace technicians of. which there are just not that many. >> That's very smart. How? So, >> and China does this, by the way, like. this is China. Have you seen the. automated cruise missile factories that. China has? >> I haven't. >> Oh, man. You You've got to look this up. at some point. There's some videos that. they put out there, and they have this. totally robotic line just churning out. >> I've seen their shipping ports. It's. bananas. >> Oh, it Well, I mean, so China has 300. times more naval ship building capacity. than the United States. The time that it.

takes us to build one aircraft carrier, they could build 300. Now, they're not. building a bunch of aircraft carriers. They're mostly focusing on other things. that are more relevant to what they want. to do, which is invade Taiwan. So, amphibious landing craft primarily. Um, but another thing China does is they. actually require many of their. commercial vessels that have nothing to. do with the military to build to. military standards for two reasons. One, because it means that all the shipyards. are being built to handle military. standards. two, they plan on basically.

uh. con, you know, they're going to press. all of these civilian vessels into. service. So, they're saying, "Hey, you. have this roll on rolloff uh car ferry. that's used for moving cars around for. delivering cars to the United States. You have to build it to deck plate. pressures that allow us to roll a bunch. of tanks onto it so that we can then use. it to deliver tanks to to Taiwan from. the Chinese mainland." And they're just. requiring people to do that. And so even. their civilian shipping fleet is. actually this kind of military ghost.

fleet just sitting in the open. pretending to be civilian, but the. moment the [ __ ] hits the fan, it becomes. part of the war machine. And so they. they've they've done a great job. integrating in a way the United States. is not. >> Do you think that an invasion of. Taiwan's imminent? >> It's not imminent, but it's coming. So. Andre has an internal policy called. China 27. The idea is that anything we. are working on, anything that we are. investing in needs to be built with the. assumption that sometime in 2027, China.

is going to move on Taiwan. And I might. be wrong on this, right? It might be. never. It might be a longer term thing, but in general, like imagine how stupid. I'll feel if I spend hundreds of. millions of dollars building some new. weapon system that I know is not going. to come into service until the 2030s, which is what most experts say is. outside of the window of when this. invasion would happen. Wouldn't I feel. pretty stupid if there's a gigantic. fight and I've spent all my money on. something that wasn't ready in time?

I think that it is very likely that. China moves on Taiwan for a variety of. political reasons. Uh so so like. Xiinping has this window politically. where he can show that he's reunified. China. He's got a lot of demographic. problems that are going to go out of. control as he waits and people age. He's. got a lot of economic problems where. they're propping up their their economy. with a lot of kind of fake GDP, fake. growth, fake demand, fake construction. And he's doing that, I think, to help.

build up his war machine, but it's not. sustainable in the long run. So, I I. think there's a window where they can do. this. If you had to ask me, it's more. likely that they don't do a full-scale. invasion to start. It's much more likely. that they do something like a blockade. So, they'll come up with some pretense. They'll say, "Uh, oh, Taiwan is. exporting goods that say made in Taiwan, and our position is that Taiwan is part. of China, and therefore they need to pay. Chinese taxes on those made in China. goods. So, we're going to blockade their.

port and not let them export anything. until they resolve this." And and I. worry I worry about them kind of boiling. the frog. you know, they they blockade. one port and then two ports and then the. airports and then the people of Taiwan. are running out of money, running out of. food, but you've boiled the frog enough. where there's never a point where Taiwan. really wants to fire the first shot and. actually start a war. And certainly like. I don't I think you and I would agree. here. The US probably should not start. uh you start World War II over a. blockade of a port, right? That that.

that's a lot. >> Boiling the frog is a great analogy. boiling the frog, I think, is what China. will do. And so what we need to do, and. and this is just my opinion, which is. definitely biased. So to be clear, just. so people know, nobody's going to dig it. up and say, "But Palmer, Palmer's. obviously only saying this because he's. got money in the game." I I I will first. say I have plenty of money. I sold my. first company for billions of dollars. I. don't need to work. I I could retire. I'm not doing any of this for the money. Defense, you you make a lot less money. for each hour of work you put in than.

you can make in in tech or media or. elsewhere. Um, but I do a lot of work. with Taiwan. So, we actually I just went. to Taiwan a few weeks ago to personally. deliver a bunch of missiles and weapon. systems that are specifically to counter. a Chinese invasion. My opinion is that. the United States, we don't want to get. into a shooting war ourselves, right? Like, we want to avoid that. The United. States needs to stop being the world. police, stop sending our people overseas. to die for other countries, and instead. we need to become the world's gun store.

We need to say, "Hey, look, like and and. and and what what do you need to do to. be a good gun store, right? You got to. keep stuff in stock. You got to keep. things on the shelves. You need to be. reasonably priced. You need to not. arbitrarily cut off allies." And like, could you imagine if you went to a gun. store and and and they told you, "Joe, we're going to sell you this gun, uh, but you can't use it over in in that. county. You can only use it in this one. And we're going to tell you exactly how. you can use it. We're going to be. micromanaging you, and we're going to be. taking responsibility for how you use. your gun. I mean, that would that would.

never work. You would never want to work. with them. You'd say, "I'm going to go. to a different store. I'm going to go. buy something." And that's what some. nations are doing. Like, they're going. to Russia. They're going to China. They're going to India and buying. systems because we're going in and. telling them, "Our weapons are. expensive. They're never in stock. We. never deliver them to you. And also, we're going to tell you what to do with. them if we ever do give you to them.". Like, did you know that Taiwan is $20. billion behind on arms deliveries from. the United States? They have $20 billion.

in orders that have not been delivered. They're they're just and they these are. not like these are not things they would. maybe like to have. They need these. yesterday. China could move in tomorrow. And the thing is even a blockade, the. best way to deter that is for Taiwan to. have the things that make them a very. prick prickly porcupine, right? You want. to have things like sea mining. capabilities that make a blockade. basically impossible to affect without. destroying the entire fleet. You want. things like missiles and counter missile. systems that make it impossible to lock. in the country. Um, but we're 20 billion.

dollars behind. And I mean, you've seen. what's happened with uh with Ukraine. where I mean, like we there's an. argument as to, you know, how we should. arm them. Separate from that argument, you've probably seen I mean, we can't. even give them what they're asking for. even if we want to give it to them. because we don't have enough to even. cover ourselves, right? Like we we can't. just give them all of our Patriot. missiles. We can't give them We can't. give them even purely defensive tools to. protect their capital because we don't. make enough of them. We don't have.

enough of them. They're too expensive. That That's That's crazy to me. >> That is crazy. >> It is crazy. So, I think the best way. for the United States to contribute to. world stability, again, stop being the. World Police, start being the World Gun. Store, and get serious about it. Instead. of in instead of saying, "Well, it's. okay that we kind of are a crappy gun. store because we're going to come and. save your ass when [ __ ] hits the fan.". We need to say, "No, no, no. We're going. to give everything you need to fight for. your own freedom. Look, you're our. friend. You're our ally. We'll give you. everything you need. We'll give you. support. We'll give you intelligence. But we're not going to fight your wars.

for you because I don't think the. American people have it in us to go do. another two decades of adventures in the. Middle East or adventures in Europe or. adventures in Asia. I it just we we we. don't have it in us. >> Well, we're too informed now, too. There's that, too. >> Yeah. The internet [ __ ] all that game. up. Oh, and I mean, arguably Vietnam, right? I mean, it's I mean, Vietnam, I. think, was the war that changed. everything there because you had I mean, you had war on TV. You could see what. was really happening. >> And we now know with the benefit of.

hindsight that it was all false flag. that got us into it in the first place. So, it was, "I don't trust you anymore, you know." So, >> well, you remember what George Bush. said? Uh, he said, "Fool me once, shame. on you. Fool me twice, can't get fooled. again.". >> I remember that. Yeah, that was a good. that's one that's that's one of my. favorite George Bush Bush isms. I I hear. the I the theory I've heard is that uh. he realized he was about to say shame on. me on camera and then the press would. have obviously said George Bush.

admits he got fooled, quote, "shame on. me." Uh but. >> I think he just forgot it. >> May maybe there's that one. I don't. know. I I think I think Bush was a. pretty I think he was a sharper guy. I. think he was maybe not well spoken, but. I think he's actually pretty sharp. I. think he just stumbled on his words. Well, what's stunning is you ever see. his speeches when he was running for. governor of Texas. >> I have not actually gone back and looked. at those. >> Smooth as butter. >> Really. >> smooth as butter. Super articulate, you. know, different guy. >> It's weird. I think it gets to a certain. point with the pressure and the chaos.

and being the president and all the the. madness of the cameras in your face. The. the magnitude of it all wears on people, which is why they get so old. >> Well, I mean, there's the I mean Well, even you know the pictures of Obama, you've seen them, you know. Crazy. >> He looks like a college student on his. first inauguration. >> and then eight years later he looks like. he's 50 years older. >> Yeah, >> it's nuts. It's just the pressure. The. only one who's ever handled is Trump. >> Trump looks younger. >> It It really is. It really is astounding. how that's worked out. >> He's a freak. He's a genuine freak. Like.

there's no one like that guy, which is. the only reason why he survived all the. [ __ ] they tried to put him through. It's. the same reason why he can go through. being president and it doesn't freak him. out. >> Oh yeah. Like I think he's it you it's. like the the Bruce Banner Hulk thing, you know? That's my secret. I'm always. angry. >> I think what it's it's it's that's how. it was for Trump. Trump was already. living at the red line non-stop, you. know, getting like what, like four hours. of sleep. >> One of the funny things about the sleep. thing is that uh I have it personally on. good authority from a lot of people that.

it is true and nobody really disputes it. except from time to time people like. like people say the same thing about. like Kim Jong-un. They're like, "Oh, the. glorious leader doesn't even need to. sleep." But with Trump's case, it seems. to somehow actually be the case. He has. he he he got that old man no sleep power. without getting all of the downsides. >> Well, some people just don't need like. Jaco, you know, Jaco Willing, >> he sleeps four hours a night. >> Really? So, same same thing. >> He works out like an animal. >> That's so interesting. >> It's just genetic. I think I think.

there's I think actually Huberman has. identified what what is the actual. genetic component of it but there's a. some particular type of people that. don't need I'm not one of them man. >> I'm not either. >> I need seven I like six if I I could. tolerate six eight is oh I'm so good. today but if I can if I get less than. six I'm a mess. >> yeah I'm I I need I need my sleep. >> significantly dumber like I if you've. ever listened to a podcast and I'm. stumbling guaranteed I'm working on 4. >> Oh yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I'm working on less than I wanted to cuz. I got to bed at around 2:00 and then I. was up at 6:30. But I can do that from. today. It was just there's a lot going. on. >> Seemed fine. I'm not worried about. >> The good news is it's the first day, right? The problem the first day asleep. you're okay. You're pulling on your. reserves. And then the second and the. third day then you start to get. destroyed. At least for me. >> Uhhuh. Me too. Me too. >> But then when I get behind my wife gives. me a hard time cuz I I I'll do what I. call a mega sleep. And I will I will. sleep if I get way behind. I'll sleep. for 10 11 hours straight. Perfect. And.

then that that that usually retards. >> It's a renewable resource. That's the. beautiful thing about sleep. >> I wonder what would happen if Trump. slept for 11 hours. Would it be like the. most incredible version of Trump we've. ever seen or would it throw him off? >> He's I mean he said in his ways, you're. not going to change anything about that. guy now, especially at 80 years old. >> That's probably true. I don't know if. you know this, but uh I was actually one. of the true Trump OGs. I wrote a letter. to Donald Trump when I was 15 telling. him that he should run for president.

This is when he was considering running. against Obama. Really? >> Um and how old are you now? >> I'm 3 just turned 33. >> Wow. >> Um so this was a long time ago. Actually. I not only luckily I sent a letter and I. posted about it on Facebook which I'm. really happy about. And I No, wait. No, this wasn't No, it wasn't 2015. No, this. was when I was 15. I'm sorry. I meant to. say when I was 15. So I mean this is. this is way back. This is like back in. like 2009, 2010. So way before anyone. else. And best friend is I posted about.

it on Facebook and I said, I think. Donald Trump would be a better choice. for president than any of these other. guys. I want to see a businessman who's. signed both sides of a check before. And. you look at the people who are running. kind of the, you know, the modern. parties, arguably the uni party, and. he's clearly not part of that. And uh it. was so it was so it was it's so wild. when people later they're like, "Oh, Palmer, you know, Palmer was an early. Trump supporter. You know, he supported. him in 2016 because he probably because. he loved Trump's, you know, extremist.

rhetoric." I'm like, "Oh, no. You don't. you you don't even know. I loved his. extremist rhetoric going back to 2009.". Um. >> Well, it wasn't even that extremist. then. >> It wasn't then. That was the thing. He's. been so You've I mean, you've probably. seen these interviews from the 80s where. he says, "We're getting ripped off on. trade. It's ridiculous." He was talking. to Oprah back when everybody loved him. >> That's right. He's saying the exact same. words and today they say, "Oh, it's it's. you remember when he was running and he. was um. >> he was saying we're going to have over. 3% GDP growth." And Obama said there's.

no magic wand. There's like you can't. there's no magic wand you can wave that. gets you to 3 point to 3%. And then. Trump said uh in in one of his speeches. he says they told me not to say this and. they told me I can't. He said, "It's. gonna be 3%." And they told me not to. say this, but it's actually going to be. a more a lot more. And of course, it. ended up being far in excess of three. I. think it was like four and a half. percent GDP increase that year. And it's. >> What year was this? >> I think this was was his first year in. office. So 2017 or sorry, >> it was uh Yeah, that was 2017, right?

Yeah. He was Yeah, he was when he was. inaugurated. And uh the it's it's one of. those things where like the the easiest. argument for Trump in those days was. just look, you don't have to agree with. the guy on everything, but the real. question is do you believe that either. party outside of Trump is going to like. are they going to do well? Like you have. you have the Democrats saying there's no. magic wand to get growth and you have. everyone else attacking Trump and. saying, "Oh, you know, we we're just. going to do everything the same way the. Republicans have always done it." Uh I.

my the strongest argument for Trump is. that anybody would have been better than. what the establishment was pushing. >> I think that's the best argument. Yeah. >> For me, one of the big ones was, >> you know, and I I I mean I got in a lot. of [ __ ] for this. I gave $9,000 to a. proTrump group that ran a single. anti-Clinton billboard. It was a picture. of her face that said too big to jail. Uh this was this was right after it had. come out that she had been mishandling. classified information, running an email. server out of her own home. You probably. remember the f famous phrase where you. they asked her, you know, are you were.

you aware that your staff was directed. to wipe that server? And she said, like. with a cloth. Do you remember like with. a cloth? I mean, it was just it was it. was it was so it was so absurd. But for. me, one of the red lines was when. Hillary and and and you not it's not. really Hillary, it's it's kind of, you. know, the the political machine and of. which she is just the face said that she. would enforce a strict nofly zone in. Syria. And it's easy to say, "Oh, yeah,

I would enforce a no-fly zone." And that. sounds, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, keep. keep these these bombers out of the air. Keep these fighters out of the air. But. what does that really mean? That means. that you're saying you're going to shoot. down Russian aircraft if they cross into. airspace that doesn't even belong to the. United States. Like I mean that's. practically an announcement that you're. starting a world war to say I am going. to shoot. That is what enforcement of. no-fly zone is. And it was crazy to me. Everyone says oh you know it's Hillary. you know Trump is an isolationist and. Hillary's the only one who has a who. understands what we need to do in Syria.

I'm like are you kidding me? Like I I'm. not without even taking a position on. what we are doing in Syria or were doing. in Syria. I know better than to commit. that we are going to shoot down Russian. aircraft because they decide to fly in. Syrian airspace. Like I we we should not. care about almost anything that much. And by the way, if we didn't do it, that's almost as bad because now we've. drawn a red line in the sand and we've. let them cross it and we've shown that. we're not actually serious. So like you. you shouldn't say that.

You shouldn't act on it and you. shouldn't not act on it. It's it's it's. a lose-lose lose every step of the way. >> and it's just politics is normal. >> That's right. And so I I mean I would. explain this to friends of mine say guys. I mean you they say oh my god Trump's a. wararmonger. It's like but Trump's you. know because I I cared about this. national security stuff pretty deeply. then. You know this was right when I was. starting Andre eight years ago and so I. was like dedicating my career to these. national security problems. Guys, how. can Trump be the wararmonger when he's.

the guy saying we need to stop fighting. these wars, get out of these other. countries, get our boots back in the US. and not get in a fight with Russia, China, or any other country that we. don't have to get into? And like, how. can you say Trump's a wararmonger and. then support someone who says we're. going to enforce a no-fly zone in Syria? Uh, and I think a lot of people it was. just really emotional. It was it was you. can't reason people out of an opinion. they didn't reason themselves into. Well, one of the things that rocks. people's world is you show them past. videos of Hillary from 2008. You.

remember that video where she was more. MAGA than MAGA? She's talking about the. border, forcing the border. >> Like I think I think one of the phrases. was we have to send them back. >> Yes. >> Can you imagine? Can you imagine that? We have to send them back. >> I mean, imagine her I mean this was her. position and it's she sounds like a. hardline Republican now. Well, I mean, let's another one to bring up is uh is. also uh like gay marriage. So, I mean, I'll tell my personal view is that the. state shouldn't be involved in marriage. at all. It's actually a very recent.

invention. I don't know if you've ever. dug into this. >> No. >> So, state marriage lensure is a very. recent development. There are people. alive today who got married when you. were not required to have a marriage. license. It was primarily a uh kind of a. racriven thing. states didn't want black. men to marry white women and they got. terrified of that in in the civil rights. era and so they all passed these rules. about marriage lure many of them. prohibiting uh interracial marriage. So.

basically marriage licenses were a way. to enforce against interracial marriage. because if marriage was a purely. religious thing where you could just go. to a pastor get married sign it in a. Bible the state had no power over it and. so they wanted to enforce their will on. people. So marriage license is very. recent. My personal opinion is the state. has no legitimate authority. constitutional or otherwise to regulate. marriage at all. Like gay marriage is. not even a question. It's like this is a. religious, cultural, social ceremony. witnessed before and before before your.

friends and your family. It is not. something the state should be they. shouldn't have the right to give you a. marriage license nor to deny you one. Like why do like are they going to when. did I give the state the ability to uh. to to say it's illegal for me to get. married without their permission? That's. that's crazy. Anyway, um so Hillary, you. might remember I mean even in 2008 she. was against gay marriage and she was out. there. She says I believe that marriage. is between a man and a woman. So here's. someone who like I was on the state.

shouldn't be involved in it at all side. Hillary's on the no, we should use state. power to enforce what marriage is. between a man and a woman. And then you. have Donald Trump who he's asked about, he said, do you remember his quote on. this? So, I mean, he had been to gay. weddings. He had gay friends and he was. asked about it and he said, "Well, look, marriage, okay? It's like a restaurant. You've got steak, you've got burgers, and different people like different. things, and that's okay." I mean, like, it was actually the most progressive the. most progressive view you could ever.

have. And then so Obama, by the way, same thing. Obama was against gay. marriage. Hillary was against gay. marriage. And then you fast forward just. three short years and you have people. like uh Brendan Ike, the CEO of Mosilla, getting uh fired by his board of. directors because he supported Prop 8, which said that marriages between a man. and a woman in California, which by the. way, even then passed in California. So. the majority of Californians agreed with. him. >> But I mean, you're right. Like Hillary. was Hillary was the thing the views she.

had when she was running for president. You're you're right. Today she would be. a hardline. certainly she' be certainly on the. cultural side alone. >> She'd be on the right of Marjorie Taylor. Green. >> No, that's a great point. Marjorie. Taylor Green, you're right. She's very. pro LGBT. Uh she she certainly is not. for intervention in the Middle East. >> Yod, you're right. Like, yeah. Yeah. And. I never thought about it that way that. Marjorie Taylor Green would be far far. left of a Hillary Clinton running again. today. >> You know, I'm going to I I I want to.

tell a story that I've never told. publicly, but I I just I I And enough. time has passed that I should just we're. bringing it up since we're talking about. Hillary. Um, so when I was in Silicon. Valley, uh, this is after Facebook. bought Oculus. And so I'm up there and. um I was actually pro- immigration uh. more even more then than I am now. So I. was I was thinking about supporting this. group called Forward US which was trying. to lead to immigration reform in the. United States. And I I've since evolved.

on this issue I think that immigration. can help depress US wages in ways I. didn't understand. Then I hadn't. observed a lot of the H-1B visa abuse. that I have now observed having spent. years in the valley. So you cut me a. little slack if anyone thinks I. shouldn't have worked with forward us. I. ended up with this invitation to go to. an event, a Hillary Clinton event in. Silicon Valley. It was very, very hush. hush. No media, nobody was saying. anything. Um, and this was before she. had officially announced she was. running. So, you're not you you know, you know when when a politician is going.

to run and everybody knows, but. technically they haven't announced it. So, um, Hillary was going to come out. and she was there with um her her what. John Podesta was her CTO at the time or. was it chief of staff? Something like. that. >> One of those. >> Yeah. So, so it was going to be her and. Podesta. At the last second, Hillary. ends up bailing, but I end up going. anyway. And I had a couple prepared. questions for Hillary. And so, it was me. and about 15 other billionaires in. Silicon Valley who went to this kind of. real uh really really intimate gathering.

and they wanted to sell us on why we. should support Hillary in this upcoming. run when she ran. And um first of all, I. thought it was kind of shitty that she. just didn't show up at the last second. and like did like like didn't say to. basically till we were already on the. way like whatever. >> She had some legitimate health issues, right? And still does. >> I she might have in general, but I don't. think that was the problem at this. point. Um and so there there were two. issues that I brought up to to Podesta. and I said, "Hey, I wanted to ask these. of of Hillary." By the way, I note note.

that in this story I hadn't decided who. I was going to support. So, a lot of. people think I'm like this hard. political guy. I was a VR guy. I was a. computer kid. Politics was something I. cared about, but like I was reasonable. I could I I was not I was not I had not. yet been um what do they call it? Radicalized. I had not yet been. radicalized. It was after they fired me. for giving $9,000 to Trump that I got. radicalized. But pre-radicalized Palmer. >> Okay. >> So, I go to this meeting and I had two. questions for Hillary. I said uh one uh. in the past, Hillary, you've supported a.

55 mph federal speed limit. You were one. of the original proponents. You were one. of the people who supported it in the. Senate. You wrote an open letter with a. lot of other wives of politicians saying. that the blood would run red with the. streets would run red with the blood of. children if we got rid of this of of. this of this speed limit. And then in. 2008 when you last ran for president, you said on I think it was the view. actually, which is it's so funny because. the view has turned into like almost a. parody of itself. But as you said on the.

view that uh when you were asked about. the speed limit, you you said that. whenever and however we can make it. happen, we should have a 55 mph speed. limit. Now given that you've never. driven a car in the last 20 years, have. you reconsidered this rule or would you. be supporting this in this campaign? And. uh Podesta said, "Oh, we don't really. have a position on that issue." I said, "But like could you make up one right. now?" Like like most Americans don't. want a 55 mile per hour speed limit. I. think that was really dumb of Hillary to. say she supported one last time. I think.

it might be why she lost. Can you would. you agree that probably it's not a. winning issue? And he said, "Oh, we. can't we can't take a position on that. at this time." Which was crazy to me. Shouldn't that be just so easy to be. like, "Yeah, like. >> this is clearly like a thing that it's a. it's a fight she lost, you know, half a. century ago and she's still worked up. about it. Just give up. People don't. want to drive 55." Um, you've you. remember when Tom. >> Tommy Hagar wrote a song about it. >> Well, you know, you know, Tom Cruz had a. can't drive 55 decal on his motorcycle. in Top Gun. And I mean, like it's like I.

mean it the cultural battle's been been. won. Then my second question was, hey, uh, >> we're a bunch of technob bros up here in. the valley. We all believe in battery. electric hybrid vehicles and and. electric vehicles in general. Uh but. Hillary's been a huge supporter of uh. Oh, no. What was the other way? I'm. sorry. This has been so long I haven't. thought about this. No, I said Hillary. actually was against corn subsidies at. one point. She called them at one point. So, you know, like the ethanol blending. mandates that were they were making corn. at a loss, paid for with taxpayer.

dollars, then mandating that it go into. gasoline, which hurts car performance. It's it's that it's it's got lots of. fuel storage problems and it's just a. waste of money and there's less energy. in it too. So you get actually worse. mileage. Um anyway, I said, "Hey, in the past Hillary has. come out and she wrote this open letter. that called ethanol blending mandates. the quote most astonishingly. anti-consumer mandate in the history of. the American government." Is she does. she still believe that? Does she want. money to go away from, you know, bofuels.

and more towards actual cutting edge. technology or is she going to support. corn subsidies to win votes in Iowa? And. Vanessa says, "Oh, we don't have a. position on that at this time." I said, "I just got to press you there. You. don't have a position or you don't want. to tell us the answer because we none of. us here think that the future is. biouels. It's it's a it's a failed. experiment. It's a failed mandate.". Hillary used to agree. Is she going to. flip on us? He said, "We I I'm honestly. genuinely telling you we do not have a.

position on this at this time." Not that. bad, right? >> That's not bad. >> And so, three days later, Hillary announces officially she's. running. Her first ads start running. And what do you think the first series. of ads are? It's Hillary in a corn field. talking about how she's going to boost. corn subsidies and she's going to lead a. clean energy revolution and she's going. to give them so much corn money. And I. like setting aside the fact that I think. bofuel subsidies are dumb. She lost so. much trust of people in that room.

because their her answer wasn't here's. why I support them and you know deal. with it. And it wasn't I don't support. it technologically but I support it. politically which I think people could. have respected. It was oh we don't have. a position but she did. They had already. paid for the ads. They'd already made. the ads. They were probably sitting on a. tape in the TV studio ready to run as. we're meeting with her chief of staff. And I honestly I I know I said that like. the Syria thing was a red line. That was. actually the moment where I decided that. I couldn't vote for Hillary. It wasn't.

about any particular issue. I was like. it's it's just how how can you vote for. someone who's willing to just lie that. way to manipulate and she was trying to. manipulate me and a bunch of other rich. guys. And there were a bunch of other. guys in that room who said the same. thing. We all were in a group chat. We're like we're not going to we're not. going to like like like By the way, my. questions weren't the only ones like. this. There were like another dozen. questions. Did Podesta answer any of. them with like meaningful? >> He did. He there there were some that. they answered meaningfully. Like I'd say. actually on the immigration side, there. were some real ones. There were. questions about policy for dreamers in.

particular. And and like he had he had. his talking points. >> He didn't expect anyone to come out of, you know, to to come off the top rope. with 55 mph speed limits. Um but but but. there were a few other things. I'm. trying to remember what were the other. ones that I think he misled people on. There was something in there around um. there was something around there around. content like like for for social media. platforms, you know, in Silicon Valley, people care about this stuff. It was. like, "Hey, like do do you agree that. the government shouldn't be uh. moderating content that they shouldn't. be censoring?" Because this was kind of.

the very early days of the government. interfering with this stuff. It was. >> When did the government first start. interfering with social media content? Do you know what the initial issues. were? So I don't know the initial issues but. like let's look at this from first. principles ignoring the social media. part. When did the government start. intervening in media? I mean. >> from the beginning. >> from the beginning uh you know one of. the reasons people everyone loves. Alexander Hamilton. He's really popular. founding father. I have to admit he's.

actually my least favorite founding. father partly because he supported. central banking. I'm just not really a. gigantic fan of it and how it's turned. out. Uh but interesting and by the way. he was also very anti-immigrant which is. so funny because. >> have go look up the interview with the. directors of Hamilton the musical when. they were asked why did you make. Hamilton in the musical super. pro-immigrant when in reality he was. very I mean very anti-immigrant. I mean. he literally said immigrants are a. poison to our nation. I mean he was he.

was really against it and which is funny. cuz he was himself an immigrant. Um and. I mean he was like you know blood and. soil all the way. I mean he was he was. really into and their answer was, "We. wanted to represent Hamilton as we think. he would have existed in uh the climate. of today, not with the information he. had at the time." Anyway, >> they made a fake person. >> But one of the other things about. Hamilton is that he did not support the. First Amendment. He actually thought. that the government should be able to. criminalize uh speech that lied about. the government in a critical way. Now to.

be clear, he didn't think you they. should be able to you regulate. everything. But his point was if. someone's lying about the government or. what it's doing or its authority, we. have to be able to stop that. You. actually had a counterpoint in people. like Benjamin Franklin, who of course. had done like letters pretending to be. the king of Prussia and lots of. satirical stuff pretending to be the. king of England. He said, "No, you. can't. You because if you say that we. can't make up lies about the government, then the government just needs to make. anything that's critical about them a a. lie. because if it's a so-called lie now.

they can stop it. And so he said we. can't give the government the power to. do this. So Alexander Hamilton was not a. fan. And I think that that thread has. been there through the history of our. government. There's always been people. from literally before the founding who. believed that the state should have a. role in influencing the media and like I. mean you're familiar with all of like uh. you the stuff that came out post JFK. about the media influence operations. what was it like 55 or 60 different. media assets were activated for the JFK. messaging campaign in national media. >> And so I guess getting back to your.

question of when did they get in social. media? I think it was probably. continuous the whole time. The moment. that it was of any importance, the. moment that it was being paid attention. to, I'm certain that the people who were. running these media influence operations. immediately jumped into that new sphere. I can't prove it. That's just my I I I. think. >> before social media though like I wonder. if they were preparing for something. like that or if it started to happen and. they didn't recognize what an impact it. was going to happen. >> I think they under I think they. understood the impact of the internet.

before social media. So even before. social media, you had people writing. blogs, you had people doing, you know, you had these bulletin board systems and. it's well known that the CIA was active. on early bulletin board systems pushing. the government perspective of course and. so I I I think that I think they've been. continuously involved in every internet. platform even before social media as we. call it today now was popular. I was. watching a a particular um political. debate uh on YouTube and occasionally.

when I see something that that's very. contentious, I'm like, "Let me go to the. comments and see what it is." And it was. all bots. >> It was wild. You know, the real obvious. zero bunch of zeros and numbers after a. name John 6, >> no profile picture or some ridiculous AI. generated thing. >> And then like a very hardline stance one. way or the other, very inflammatory, causing arguments. So I was like, "This. is wild. This is all bots.". >> Well, you're famili with dead internet. theory, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah.

>> Explain that to people. >> So dead internet theory has been around. for quite a long time, probably long. before the internet was actually dead. And it's this theory that over time. there will be increasing amounts of uh. literal robotic content and then also. kind of like astroturfed fake content, you know, like one guy running a 100. accounts. And that the theory is that. eventually there will be almost no real. human back and forth on the internet. That it's actually kind of just. propaganda and counterpropaganda playing.

out on a stage for our benefit by. moneyed interests, whether it's. corporations, the government, foreign. adversaries. And uh you know, there. might be a few people in the mix, but. it's primarily going to be uh just. robots arguing with each other. And I I. think that more and more it's becoming. true. I mean, >> well, it's getting close. Like that FBI. analyst that when Elon was in the middle. of buying Twitter who looked at all the. different bots and you know what they. were trying to say was 5%. He said, "No, I think it's 80.".

>> Yep. >> 80%. So, when you're on Twitter and you. see people arguing and making points and. even posting things. >> Yep. Well, and there was, you might. remember, there was the time where uh a. bunch of the stats for Wikipedia editors. came out and it was some like enormous. fraction of edits coming out of one. location in Arlington, Virginia. And. it's like, oh wow, Arlington, Virginia. that, you know, famously the center of. academic rigor and excellence. There's. supposed to be a lot of people living. there who they just really care about. making sure Wikipedia is accurate.

>> How odd. How odd. >> Could I take a quick break and get a. little bit of water? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's water right. there right in front of you. >> There we go. Thank you. I missed that. >> That's all you need? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we have filtered water in that. jug. >> I'm just going to need a I need to I. need to I need to. >> pause, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be. right back. >> I need to take off my jacket, too. It's. It's good when you're walking around and. there's air moving on it because the. copper conducts heat away really well. But just sitting in here, it's. >> actually copper. >> Yeah. Here, check it out. >> Wait, I want to do this on camera. Are. we still rolling? >> Look, you keep rolling here, you guys.

>> That's a copper jacket. >> It's from this company called Volibok. >> It's actually made out of copper. It's. actually made out of copper. >> Oh yeah, it's so heavy. >> There's Yeah, it weighs like 4 and a2. pounds. >> This is nuts. >> It's something like 3,000 miles of. copper of of ultra fine copper thread. >> Does this protect you from EMF or maybe. some Russian signals? >> If you put your phones into that pocket, then no signals go out. >> whatsoever. So, it's like a Faraday. cage. >> Yeah, it's a little wearable Faraday. cage. >> So, it's actually it's actually got some. some some use beyond being cool. But. >> the company makes these.

>> Yeah. So, the company Volibach's really. interesting. They So, they make Can I. try this on? Yeah, of course. They make. a bunch of really cool clothes out of. very novel materials. Some of them very. futuristic. Like they make a jacket out. of the material that the Mars rover. parachute was made. So it's like a. supersonic parachute material made out. of Kevlar. It is pretty weird. >> Make me feel very restricted. >> Well, you're also a lot bigger than me, so I'm I'm I'm a little skinny. >> So you can So yeah, but it seems to fit. most. But it just seems heavy and.

restrictive. you know, it it you you do. have to make sure you size it where. there's plenty of room to move around. inside of it because it does not stretch. at all. It's made of tightly. >> So, there's a few benefits. Um the first. is that it looks sweet. >> Jamie's ordering one right now. Look at. him. >> Um the other is that uh the other is. that copper is an antimicrobial. material, so you never get mildew on it. You never get mold like like like it it. magically kills all of that stuff. Um. also, I mentioned earlier the pockets. are basically a Faraday cage. So if you. want like if I want my phone to get. calls, I keep it in my my my pants.

pocket. I want to disappear. >> If there was a jacket that Palmer Lucky. was wearing, I would hope it would be. this. >> Like when you showed up in this crazy. jacket, I'm like, that's what I would. hope. >> They've got a new one that's a t-shirt. that's made out of carbon nano tubes. So. you should check you should check that. out. They're working on they're working. on some wild nextgen stuff. >> Whoa. Um sorry, give me just a sec. I just got. to take a I actually just need to take a. me a mental a mental break. Is that. okay? Yeah, take a break. I'll take a. leak. >> All right. Thank you. I appreciate. >> for a second.

>> So, there's a place called Commando. Store. You were talking about these. panties I have. >> Well, yeah, we're just talking about. your Tiger Stripe, your Tiger Stripe. Ranger panties. >> And uh yeah, Commando Store is doing. these reproductions of vintage gear like. Vietnam era US gear, Russian gear, using. modern materials, but old camo prints. And they're super authentic. But the. problem is a lot of this actual old. gear, it's all mildewed, it's destroyed, the thread is all crusty and busting. apart. Right. >> And so if you actually want to be. authentic, like the guys in the. Vietnamese jungle did not look like they.

were wearing old crappy busted apart. gear, their gear was fresh. And so if. you want to look just like they did, you. actually have to buy newly manufactured. gear. But you I'll I'll uh I'll send you. some links. They have a lot of really. cool tiger stripe stuff that's very very. cool and authentic. >> Nice. How when you were a kid, did you. ever imagine you'd be selling weapons? Did does that ever seem surreal to you. that you go from being this guy who's. really into VR. >> to weapons manufacturing? >> It seems a little bit surreal, but only.

a little bit. Um, you growing up, I. always would be the guy who identified. with the guy in the story who was making. the tools. So like when I would watch. James Bond, I never thought I'm James. Bond. It was like, oh, I want to be Q. Like I want to be the guy making the. tools. >> or Tony Stark. >> Exactly. >> Both. >> Yeah. Tony and Tony Tony did it all. >> Um and so I I I I have to admit like it. certainly they thought it occurred to. me. Um like one of my favorite anime.

characters was a charact anti-hero named. Stoka who ran a weapons company that was. also a virtual reality company. And uh. like they built they they built like. virtual reality uh gaming simulator pods. and also weapons. Um and so it's it's. really weird like you start to ponder. are you really making decisions with. free will or are you actually just like. enacting the programming of when you're. a kid like like.

>> I like I it's it's hard to really know. but like when people like oh you know. Palmer, how do you get into this stuff? It's like I mean I remember being like 7. years old and and and thinking about. this stuff or like you watch uh you. watch like Power Like I was I grew up. watching Power Rangers when I was a. really little kid, you know, reruns of. the first season of Power Rangers. And. the character I most identified was like. the techno wizard of the group Billy who. was building like flying cars and. upgrading their robot suits. And I don't. know, it's really weird when you end up.

as an adult just doing exactly what you. were fascinated with when you're a kid. because what you're fascinated with when. you're a kid is really it's just it's a. function of what's put in front of you, right? Like like what if I would have. had different things put. >> if you lived in Montana? >> Yeah. What if I lived in Montana? What. if um you know what if I uh you know. what if what if what if it's like is. there a world is there a world like I. grew up in Nashville and I would have. inevitably been a musician. >> and like almost without even being able. to choose it even if I went in one.

direction would have ended up coming. back to it. >> probably look all those things are. interesting and you're a guy who's into. interesting things it's just finding. whatever the path is that you think is. interesting and just going in that. direction you just your direction was. kind of established by your interest. when when you were younger. So, it. probably seems surreal just in the fact. that you've gone so far with it to the. point where you're actually making. weapons to defend other countries. >> Well, that's the crazy thing is I think. part of part of the reason it's so wild. my progression is it only happens if it.

if if it's successful continuously, >> right? >> So, like. a world where I don't basically figure. out how to build good virtual reality. technology is one where Oculus doesn't. exist. If Oculus doesn't exist, I don't. get bought by Facebook. I don't go to. Silicon Valley. I don't become kind of. one of the leading tech figures in that. industry up there. >> You have to hit every green light. >> You have to hit every green light. And. like I like, you know who you know who. funded Anderol when I started it? Like. yes, me. I put a lot of my money into. it, but it was all of these same.

investors who had invested in Oculus. I. mean, literally the same people. So like. Brian Singerman is a good example. He. was a partner at Founders Fund, which. was Peter Teal's investment fund. They. decided to put $1 million into Oculus. before any other fund was willing to. give us money. So, they were the first. institutional money into Oculus VR. >> And then he ended up being our first. investor also in Ander. So like you're. talking about like the same people even. like these relationships come back.

around and then that turns into running. a weapons company and then that turns. into building more efficient weapons and. then like one of our recent wins. >> Yeah, we were competing and with Boeing. and Lheed Martin and Northrup Grumman to. build the Air Force's first AI powered. fighter jet. So, the first fighter jet. with no human pilot, not limited by. human ability, instead limited by the. ability of this robot brain making the. whole thing go. >> And we beat them. I mean, how crazy is.

that to like for for for like like that? That's what's crazy to me. Like, it's. not sitting here crazy like, "Oh, is it. crazy I'm building weapons?" For me, it's crazy like bu it's not that hard to. imagine you end up building, you know, guns for, you know, the Marines like. like but like what's really nothing. against the Marines or the people who. build guns for them. I love those guys. The crazy part to me is that all these. things have gone right over and over to. the point where I can literally have. billions of dollars at my disposal from. my investors to build multi-million.

square foot factories to build act like. the Air Force's first AI fighter jet, which is the official designation they. just gave it is the FQ44. Fighter, Q for. unmanned, and then 44 is the number. designation. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. So that that's the crazy thing. When I lay awake at night, that's what. I'm thinking about. It's It's not so. much that I am building weapons, it's. that we're we're like actually pulling. off things that make a difference. And. by the way, AI fighter jets. >> There it is. >> There it is. So that was that was uh. that was a wind tunnel test.

>> And you'll notice there's no protrusion. for a cockpit. The whole So it's a. stealth aircraft, low signature, uses. the same weapon systems that a real. fighter jet uses. >> That's what it looks like in the front. >> Yep. So, this was a that that was that. was a very early very very early. propulsion system test. And um one of. the crazy things. >> what's the is that what they look like? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So, one of the crazy things about this. is that the United States So, the idea. is you have a bunch of these for every.

man fighter because they're cheaper, they are more expendable, you can take. more risk with them. Uh so, imagine. this. I've got an F-35 flying with five. of these things. The original name of. the program was loyal wingman. The idea. is that I have a loyal wingman. Does. whatever I tell him. I can talk to it. like I would any human, you know, co you. know, you know, co-orker and it's going. to go in and do what I tell it. But it's. never going to question my orders. It's. never going to try to save itself if it.

means ruining the mission. And one of. the craziest things about autonomous. aircraft is that the United States has. spent basically a century figuring out. what works in air combat. I mean, you've. seen, right? >> Mhm. >> You know, they have this book of tactics. that they need to learn to stay alive. How you measure how you manage your. energy and your altitude and your. position so that you destroy the enemy. and you don't get destroyed yourself. There's another book of tactics that. will allow you to destroy the enemy, but.

will probably get you killed in the. process. We don't teach those generally, or if we do, it's in the context of. don't do this. All of those tactics are. on the table when it comes to AI powered. fighter jets. I can now have it doing. things that are so risky that a human. pilot would never try even try the. maneuver. Cuz let's say it's a coin. flip. It's a 50/50 chance that you're. going to die, but a 100% chance that I'm. going to be able to take out the enemy. target. Imagine going after something. where I know I am probably going to get.

shot down at the end of that maneuver, but I definitely take out all the. surfacetoair missile launchers on the. shore, which then allow everything else. to come in through the gap that you just. cleared. You'll make that trade every. every day. You'll trade a cheap AI. fighter jet to blow up a bunch of really. expensive manned or or autonomous. systems in the air or on the or on the. ground every time if it allows you to. accomplish that mission. And so. autonomy, it really changes the game on. this stuff. It's not it's not it's not. an incremental change in tactics. It's a.

complete revolution. >> What do you think that New Jersey [ __ ]. was all about. >> in like the unidentified era phenomenon? >> What was that all about? >> Well, what's so interesting about the. New Jersey stuff, and you've, you know, you're probably tracking this as well or. better than me. Um, but it is so. perfectly aligned with things that we've. seen in the past. like you're familiar. with all like the the the the. overflights and hovering over nuclear. facilities and military bases in the. past. >> Here's here's what I think happened.

>> I think that there was something really. weird that was going on. I think briefly. there was something that was really. unexplained and then what happened. unfortunately is everyone found out. about it online. Everybody got their. drones, put them in their cars, drove. out there to go out and try and fly it. And then I think that the next three. weeks were a bunch of idiots with drones. flying in circles looking at each other. I've seen all these videos. 99% of them. it's pretty obvious that the thing. they're looking at is another DJI drone.

that is also looking at them and saying, "Oh dude, oh [ __ ] there it is." Like it. was it was it was kind of this crazy. media circus. I think there was. something that was real and then very. very quickly it evolved into being just. kind of a a flash mob social media. circus. I I think that's probably. accurate because a lot of it was in. Austin as well. It was like these. enthusiasts were getting their drones. out everywhere. >> That's right. And. >> there was like it's drone time. >> Well, in Have you Have you heard Have. you heard the um um Oh, what do they.

call it? There's a theory that someone's. come up with and I can't I forget what. it is. It's It's like It's like It's. like uh proliferation masking or. something. Have you heard the theory. that modern drone technology was seated. by aliens so that we would create a. bunch of things that would be up in the. sky that look kind of like their. aircraft so that they would basically. act as cover for the real activity? Have. you heard this theory? I don't really. believe it because I actually have met. with the people who kind of invented. modern quadcopters and flight. controllers. Like it's it's there's.

there it it's but the idea is very. interesting and I makes me wonder if. there might be some truth to it, you. know, elsewhere in the world. Like it. sure is convenient. Imagine you're an. alien. You're regularly operating around. military bases, nuclear infrastructure. Wouldn't it be convenient if there was. something else that you people could. explain away as you like? Wouldn't it be. great if there was something that also. darted around and hovered in place and. was very quiet and just little tiny. flashing lights? Like, wouldn't that be. really convenient as a cover for what.

you were doing? Because these same. activities. in like the 50s and the 60s, there was. nothing like that, right? Like back. then, if you said, "Oh yeah, I saw 100. red lights orbiting around that nuclear. facility." You just all you could say. was, "Holy [ __ ] what what in the world. could that be?" And today it's so easy. to say, "Oh, it's it's just some. drones." And so, unfortunately, it's a. lot harder to know what's real. And I I. wish I could travel back in time, even. just, you know, 10 or 20 years to, you.

know, do the the Moulder and Skully. thing I talked about earlier. Be the be. the be the the the the. >> be the billionaire, you know, the. billionaire James Bond uh X-Files guy. with a with with, you know, a badge and. a badge and a and a checkbook. I feel. like you could really find some. interesting stuff. What when you say. that something weird was happening. >> Yeah. >> in New Jersey, what do you what do you. what are you saying? >> So something that was observable by some. sensors and not by other sensors. And. that's really the common thread between.

a lot of these things like it'll show up. on a on on visual like a guy sees it. with his eyes and he sees it with a. thermal sensor but it isn't showing up. on radar or something where they'll see. it on radar but they can't pick it up on. other sensors. And of course there are. some things where it's multi-ensor, but. in general when I say something weird, it's not obviously just drawn or weird. in that it's acting in ways we don't. expect. Like how does something move so. quickly and not have any skin heating? Why isn't it white hot if it's moving. that fast to the air? How can it change. direction so quickly without the. airframe tearing apart? That's what I.

mean by weird. And I I look I don't know. what this stuff is. >> when you say but weird like what was. observed? So the weird thing that was. observed was. primarily that there was something there. in an area that it shouldn't have been. and that there shouldn't have been. anything. there should not have been anything that. was able to endure for that long in that. area with those characteristics like. this little tiny drones that cannot show. up on radar and that can you know kind. of hide in place like that. They don't. have hours and hours and hours of.

endurance, right? right? They're they. fly for 25 30 minutes tops. And then. also they typically would need to be. launched by something, you know, right. close to there. And the particular area. it was in, >> it would have been really hard to launch. from one of the nearby areas, get over. the water, get to there, and then stay. there as long as it did. Um, it's not. the weirdest thing that that people have. seen, though, like the the Hellfire. thing recently with the missile. That. was some of that was some of the. weirdest stuff that I've seen. >> That's so weird because it got hit and. it just shook it off and kept moving.

>> It's It looks almost like they were like. pieces. It's like some reconstituted, >> right? Like it took pieces of it. >> So, one of I don't know if you've done. uh everyone wants to believe that it's. aliens and like that's what I want to. believe. >> Of course. >> Um I don't think that it is a foreign. adversary. Like I don't buy into the. idea that the Chinese or the Russians. have have secretly figured this out. Uh. but then the question is okay well what. does that what does that leave? And I I. I feel like my gut is that it's.

something that is weirder than anything. that anyone has made popular. Like just. as an example, it's literally bleeding. in from some parallel dimension. It's an. energy signature and it's co-aligned by. accident rather than intent, right? Like. it's there because there's something in. its parallel universe that is similar to. what we're doing and that's why they're. co-aligned. I know this sounds like. weirdo mumbo jumbo, but you just it it. seems like something like that even. would be more likely. Uh, did you ever. read uh Michael Michael uh Michael uh.

Michael Kitchen's novel um The Sphere or. was it just Sphere? >> No. >> All right. Do you mind if I spoil Sphere. for you? So, there was a movie. It was. not nearly as good as the book. So in. sphere without spoiling the ending the. very beginning of it is you have this. researcher who is brought out to this. secret naval research facility in the. Pacific Ocean because the Navy has. discovered a massive object multiple. kilometers long lying on top of a. shallow a shallow coral reef on some.

atoll covered in coral that appears to. be a spacecraft an alien spacecraft. And. they figured out that when it crashed. thousands of years ago there, it. probably crashed onto an island which. then sea levels rose and then it became. covered. So they by this they basically. figure out it must have been there for. about 3 or 4 thousand years this. spaceship. And so the Navy is going and. they're trying to figure out what it is. They're scraping coral off this ship. They bring in this researcher and as the.

researcher is being brought to the site, they discover for the first time what. they've been looking for, a door into. the air. They were scraping the craft. looking for some way in through this. ultra tough metallic alloy that had. never been observed ever in nature or or. or or science. And then the the big. reveal of like the first arc of the book. is they scrape off the coral, they look. at the door. Incredible. It's a door, but then they look next to the door and. there's a marking. And what does the. marking say on this 30,000-y old.

spaceship? United States Navy and an American flag. And you know the what's what's. interesting is they never actually fully. explain it. But the the implication is. and what they believe happened is that. this was a timetraveling craft that. somehow went back in time or alternately. that it's actually from some distant. past civilization that traveled forward. in time like maybe went to space did.

some exploring and came back. Maybe the. United States is actually a purpose. reconstitution of the branding and. social structures of some longlost. society from 500 million years ago. I'm. not saying that's necessarily what's. happening, but I think that that's. actually more likely than it being. aliens from another galaxy coming to. where we are. that I you know all it's. just that is actually harder for me to. believe than than something that is of. our own little local solar sphere and. just really truly bizarre and not being.

taken seriously. >> Why is that harder to believe? Why is uh. space travel harder to believe than time. travel? >> It's mostly all of the it's. >> or dimension travel. >> So dimensional travel like that that's. totally believable. It's it's yeah. specifically the thing I think is least. likely is that using normal conventional. physics that we understand it's people. coming from another place that's many. light years away coming to where we are. It's just it's a m it's a matter of uh. we haven't observed anything that could. do that. We haven't seen any synthetic.

material that could we haven't seen any. natural phenomena that could. >> but if you just go back 200 years ago. cell phones impossible. >> but the difference here is that we're. able to see millions of years of history. of the universe coming into us. Right? We we we're observing things that. happened hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago, millions of. years ago from all over our galaxy and. other galaxies. >> And there's a lot of markers that you. would expect to see that would line up. with what how we understand intelligent. life. >> And we're just not seeing them. And. you're familiar with like dark forest. theory, you know, maybe maybe maybe the.

the civilizations that emanate those. signals get whacked down before they. become a threat to the dominant powers. Maybe everyone's hiding, right? Like. there are these theories as to why this. is the case. And maybe we're being id if. you've heard probably the theory about. us being idiots for trans like Stephen. Hawking was of this opinion. He thought. it was really stupid for us to try and. make first contact. Uh his point was not. just that it's probably a bad idea in. general. His point was be the fact that. we haven't observed it from anyone else.

suggests a lot of danger in doing so. Like you it could mean that nobody's. doing it. It could mean that anyone who. does it gets wiped out. you know, if if. you stand up, you get knocked down. And. so, it's just. I I have a hard time believing that it's. conventional conventional thing on. another planet that comes to see us. That's not to say there isn't life out. there in the universe. I think it's out. there, but for whatever reason, it. doesn't seem to be life that's capable. of inter interolar system or.

intergalactic travel. But what do you. think of people that talk about some. sort of a potential science that. eventually gets cracked where it's a. gravity drive like something that folds. space time. >> in that case? And so what this is one of. my favorite favorite favorite theories. about this like people talk about about. that. there's a question like if you're. actually folding spaceime or breaking. spacetime uh there's a question as to. are you going to see visitors from. another part of your plane of existence.

that are just using that technology to. you know jump a few miles over to you or. are you more likely that that level of. technology is one that allows people to. come from in completely different plains. of existence different dimensions. different types of universes we don't. even begin to understand. Like, if if we. can prove that we can manipulate. spacetime like that, to me, that's an. indicator that you can do even more than. that. Again, I'm not saying it's. impossible. I'm just I'm I'm I'm putting. my chips on the table as the things that. I've seen, I'm more likely to believe. that it is.

>> time travelers, unknown residents of. Earth, people from another dimension, energy signals from another dimension, bleed through of our own past, present, and future. I I put all those at a. higher likelihood than they came from. from Andromeda and now they're flying. around our military bases. >> Did you see that guy representative uh. what's his name? Tim Berett, is that his. name? Who was talking about there's five. specific areas where these things seem. to be emanating from the ocean. >> I'm I'm generally familiar. I've not I.

don't remember what those areas are. I. know that oneird one of them is one of. them is very near me. It's the It's the. Channel Islands corridor, >> right? I tracked down this book that's. out of print now called the unidentified. No, it's the UFOs and USOs. Unidentified. um submersible objects of the Santa. Catalina Channel. This guy went around. >> It's that common. >> Well, in this one area, tons of bizarre. activity. This guy went around and he. interviewed everybody who had a weird. story and he just basically compiled. them. He said, "What do you see?

Describe it in detail." And he went back. like these are like fishermen had. stories from the 80s. and he talked to. naval aviators and he talked to uh you. know lo local yachtsmen and he talked to. all these people and he points out in. his prologue these are all just the. stories I've collected I have not edited. these stories I have not modified these. stories and the people have verified. that they are correct and you you here. they are all on the record this is their. name he didn't include anybody who was. anonymous because his point was if it's. anonymous you could just claim I made it.

up it has to be a real person who stands. behind it and he said you'll notice that. across about 50 years of stories I've. collected. that there's extraordinary commonality. between these stories. People who have. never met have no reason to work. together, have no reason to have a. common story and yet they all observe. very similar things and that that when. you see a one-off, it's hard to draw a. conclusion. When you see a pattern. becomes a lot. >> what are they observing specifically? >> So specifically the Catal the Santa. Catalina channel. Uh, so you have.

basically Catalina Island off the coast. of the of of of California and you have. a few more channel islands that are. stretched out on either end of it. Um, the things that they were seeing were. vehicles that were in the sky and then. going into the water at high speed and. appearing to like like not hitting them. and slamming and exploding like you'd. expect, but instead you still a huge. flash, but just seamlessly transitioning. into the water. lots of noise, lots of. splash, but not like destroying.

themselves. And then similarly, objects. coming out of the water in the same way. And so they all describe these very very. uh steep approach paths. So like not. coming in like an aircraft, landing on. the water, but almost like coming out of. the sky, these very steep angles and. then just smashing into the water in a. way you would expect would destroy. anything. But then in instead, the. vehicles are apparently fine and the. water just parts around them as they. rocket in. >> Ooh. really really bizarre stuff and it. makes you wonder you could that be.

related the same technology or process. that allows the air because like you've. seen these systems they're not creating. sonic booms. >> right. >> you don't see shock waves coming off of. them and they're not heated by the. movement through the air they're not. they're not really really hot I mean. you've heard the stories about the SR71. I mean it would get literally red hot on. its leading edges you know the you know. tight glowing titanium but these things. are cold and so is there some technology. that can displace place air around you. They can also displace water around you.

is is is is kind of the interesting. theory there. But yeah, that that that. particular I've dug into because it's. only about 20 miles away from my house. So. >> the weird one is the breakaway. civilization thing. >> That's the weird one cuz that's the most. ridiculous until you start thinking. about it. >> and then you start looking back at past. civilizations like ancient Egypt and. some of the monolithic construction. around the world. >> You've read Chariots of the Gods. >> Mhm. I talked to Von Danakin once. Oh, really? >> He went to Peter Teal's house and Peter. Teal and Eric Weinstein brought me over.

for lunch. >> Oh, that must have been so cool. >> It was so cool to just question him. about stuff. What? He. >> I read Chariots of the Gods when I was. uh I don't know, probably like seven or. eight. >> It was a fun movie, too. >> Oh, I haven't seen the movie. I didn't. even know there was an old ass movie. >> It was an old ass book. >> It was in the movie theaters. >> So, the the interesting thing about it. is like I I' I've dug into a lot of that. as I've gotten older. And yes, there are. things in there where like we've now. learned that they weren't true, but some. of it holds up. There's still really. bizarre stuff that was happening in. ancient civilizations that is common.

between civilizations, >> and it doesn't really make sense. >> It doesn't really make sense when you. think about it conventionally. Well, Ben. Van Kirkwick, who uh runs u Uncharted X, >> uh he was on the podcast recently and he. was describing how there's specific. hieroglyphs that indicate some sort of a. star portal. >> Yep. >> That that's what the hieroglyphs are. saying. Like this is a star gate. >> and it shows stars. It shows this portal. and gate and this is it's written.

multiple times and they're trying to. figure out well what is this trying to. say? Like what is this? What do you. think about the theory that uh that. there's other sensient that that the. other sensient species of Earth might. have better better lore on this than us? Have you heard of this theory? >> No. >> I don't want to. So, this is going to. make me sound a bit like a a little bit. like a nutter, but I'm I'm I'm pretty. deep on I'm we're pretty deep down the. rabbit hole. >> We're on territory right now. So, so. people have oral traditions that have.

passed down pretty well. >> Mhm. >> But we've also observed that stories can. pass down in other sensient species like. whales, like dolphins. They have these. whale calls that have been constant for. a long time. They're they communicate. with each other. One of the theories, and by the way, this is explored in like. some of the old Star Trek movies. They. explored this idea that the whales. actually had better and more stable oral. history than humanity. Um, and it's not. that crazy of an idea. Um, and so you.

you wonder, for example, uh, if we could. understand them, what would they have to. say about any of this stuff? Like may. maybe they're not smart enough to have. anything to say, but you know, do do. they have do they have anything to say. about for and like it may not be. obvious. It may not be we know about. star people who are going through. stargates but for example what if. there's oral tradition. >> uh or even genetic you know programming. around oh we never go to this area never. go to this place or never eat the food. from this place you know could there be.

interesting leads that are buried in. cultures that are not human. >> well we were talking about that before. that you're working on interspecies. communication. >> that's right so this hasn't actually. officially launched yet hopefully they. won't mind me talking about it? Um, are. you familiar with the X-P Prize. Foundation? They did. Yeah, we. >> were just talking about it. >> So, like if for people who aren't. familiar, X-P Prize is basically this. group that makes these big significant. monetary prizes for teams to compete. against each other to do things that. seem crazy. So, like there was an X-. prize for uh going to going to space on.

a reusable rocket. Um, John Carmarmac. was competing for that. Did you know. that? >> Yes, I did. >> Um, so like you inspired him. Uh there. was they're doing some cancer X-P. prizes. There's one that's going on. right now uh called the Wildfire X-P. prize, which is basically challenging. companies to build a system that can. detect wildfires anywhere on the planet. in less than a minute from space and. then deploy autonomous drones to. extinguish them before they get large.

enough that they turn into a real. wildfire. The idea is like instead of. responding to fires once they're too big. to control, you're able to stop them in. their in their tracks. And I mean I mean. just like the Palisades fire created $20. billion in damage. It's it's actually. very cheap to do this relative to the. damage that wildfires cause. Anyway, the. the X-P prize guys came to me a while. back and uh we we were we were jamming. on uh we were jamming on a few ideas for. their next prize. And I I hopefully they. don't mind me saying this, but initially.

I said you guys should do an uplift X-P. prize. Even with uplift, the science. fiction concept, no it's fallen out of. favor. It was it was really popular for. a while. Um there was an uplift trilogy. written by I can't remember the guy's. name, but it was he he wrote a whole. book about non-human consciousnesses. Like there was and in his book there's. like plasma consciousnesses in the sun. Like you probably heard these crazy. ideas, you know, like intelligent beings. that live in the sun. But one of it the. main thrust of uplift is taking species.

that are not sensient and lifting them. up to the level of sensience and beyond. So, like, can you take a dog and teach. it to talk by genetically modifying it. to make it smarter? Can you take whales. and and and pass them up? And by the. way, the uplift trilogy, they also. explored this idea like Star Trek, of. the whales having an oral tradition that. was more stable than humanities and. actually having like a lot of. information that was concealed by from. man until they uplifted those species.

And I've always thought that was really. interesting. And so, I went to X-Prize. said, "I want you guys to do an uplift. X-P prize. First person to modify an. animal to be smarter than a person.". >> And uh and they actually said, "That's. too crazy. That's a that's X-P prize is, you know, X-P prize is trying to push. the future, but for, you know, for a. variety of honestly quite good reasons, they said this is not quite our jam. But. one we are working towards is an. interspecies communication X-P prize.". And it's a prize to and I think that.

with modern AI advances, this is going. to be a lot more possible to gather. large amounts of data, reason about it, and figure out the vocabulary and. grammar of these species. The idea is. it's to it's the first team that can. meet species where they are and. communicate with them in a repeatable. verifiable way. This isn't teaching a. dog to, you know, say yes when you say. uh go, do you want to eat? >> Exactly. No, this is this is birectional. communication, objective, verifiable,

um, deterministic, predictable. Um, and it's a really hard. one, but I think a good X- prize should. be. You shouldn't be picking things that. are easy. You're picking things that are. they they seem like they're just out of. reach and you just need to stretch for. it. Well, there's been talk. >> and if we do that, I'm going to be. asking the whales. >> Whales and dolphins, they have a. language, but we don't know what it is. >> That's right. >> So, the idea is the using of AI. If you. get to super general intelligence and AI. can run all the patterns through some.

sort of a program and determine what is. being. >> because we've expressed we've learned. some things um like we've learned how a. lot of citations can call names and you. know very very like very very unique. IDs. >> They have dialects. >> Yep they do. Um but we are so far away. from cracking the code right. I mean, like, isn't it crazy that we can crack. basically any cipher, any crypto code, we can we can translate languages. basically from scratch if we get a few. words is stone.

>> Exactly. And and we have no idea how it. works. And I don't mean like we don't. know the words, but we know there are. words. It's like there's weird things. where they're like communicating via. ultrasound with each other, and we think. that like one is emitting and another is. receiving and emitting. And maybe. there's information in the phase. difference between those two, right? Like they might be in co that this is. where the theory of um of acoustic. holograms as a primary means of citation. commun came from. I I don't believe in. in that anymore. I I think that wasn't.

quite right. But like differences in. phase between simultaneous transmit and. receive ultrasonic communication. It. seems to be that's part of it. So you. can't just like listen for words. You're. actually looking for differences in how. these waves are interacting and those. are distance dependent, direction. dependent. We've got a lot of work cut. out for us to understand to understand. animals. >> That is so wild. >> You you're familiar with Alex the. African gray parrot? >> No. >> Oh, you've got to look into this. I. mean, maybe you could even get one of.

his trainers on the show. So, Alex, the. African African gray parrots are. probably the smartest bird. Definitely. one of the smartest animals. >> Right up there with crows or ravens. >> Smarter. They're very, very smart. They. can talk. They can reason. Alex the. parrot was. >> So, Alex the parrot was a uniquely smart. African gray parrot. Um, by the way, African grays are usually not kept in. captivity just because they're such a. handful. There we go. That's Al. That's. there's there's Alex. >> They're a handful because they're so. intelligent.

>> It it's like dogs that need to be. exercised. They need to be. intellectually stimulated. And most. people just don't have the time to keep. an African gray uh properly stimulated. So they start they they get depressed, they self harm. So they're not. recommended as a beginner parrot by any. means. Now, Alex was interesting because. he he had a he had a vocabulary. He. understood grammar and he is one of the. I think the only animal. >> who asked an existential question and he. actually did it right before he died if. I remember correctly. Like he wasn't.

just saying give me food. He could say. like tomorrow I want this food. He could. be and but he the existential question. he asked was what's happening and where. am I going which is and he had never. asked those questions before. They were. brand new formulated questions that he. asked very shortly before he passed. And. so there's a lot of Now here's the other. cool part. He's got a bird brain. He has. a tiny little brain. >> and yet it has all that capacity. You've. probably heard of people who have lost.

huge chunks of their brain and they. reprogram and they seem to get by. Parrots like Alex suggest that you can. get by with very little brain if it's. oriented correctly. So imagine if I took. a species like an African gray and I. modified certain elements of its genetic. code to cause its brain to be somewhat. larger, somewhat more glucose consuming. so it has more energy and then also to. have more folds. They're very. smoothrained. What if I could have we we. know that folded brain tissue and the. high density that it creates on the. neuronal surface is very good for.

intelligence. Like could you make an. African gray that is able to have a. normal human level conversation? I think. I think it's actually very close to. that. >> Wow. >> So this is one of those. >> how many? Come on. Can you tell me how. many? >> Very good. >> What? Two. >> We keep going. Can you tell me what's. different? What's different? >> Color. >> Come on. What number is gray?

>> Don't want to tell. Well, tell me what. number is greater than nut. >> What number is gray? >> Four. >> Very good. Good boy. >> [ __ ] man. >> Right. And I mean, you're looking at. intelligence that's on par by all of the. traditional metrics with a human. toddler, but with radically less brain. tissue and. >> but also radically less body to control. >> That's that's true. That and also a lot. of like semi- autonomy. like you you. know how some animals have more of their. nervous system distributed like you know.

octopuses have you know autonomy in. their muscles it's actually similar for. a lot of animals and so one of one of. the reasons I've always found AI so. interesting. >> is not just what we can do with AI but. learning how. >> like building a building a thinking. system from scratch I'm thinking will. help us understand how other systems. think like we haven't we there's never. been an economic motive to really dig. into how to understand how the brain. fundamentally works. Like people I I. know there's people who are listening.

who probably think that's crazy. They. say, "Pomer, people want to cure brain. cancer. They want to help with. Alzheimer's." There's a difference. between preserving brain function and. truly understanding how the brain works. And yes, there's research labs here and. there, but Google's never been funding. them to the tune of tens of billions. Right? Meta's never been funding them to. the tune of hundreds of billions. AI is. the first time that humanity has ever. dedicated a huge amount of resources to. understanding what thought is, how to. make it synthetically, and how to make. it better. And we're going to make a lot.

of mistakes along the way, but I think I. think that understanding how to make. synthetic brains via AI is going to. teach us how to make parrots like Alex a. lot smarter, too. Well, when you start. talking about stuff like this and you. start talking about genetically. engineering an animal to be as. intelligent or more intelligent than a. human, it it brings me to the weirder. theory about human evolution. That we're. a product of accelerated evolution and. that some superior intelligence would do. exactly what you're saying. That's my.

favorite part about Uplift is that if. you can prove that it works, you open up. a whole a whole avenue of theories that. have been treated as crazy. Like right. now, if you if you see like what you. just said about, you know, uh uh you. know, augmented evolution of humans, >> it's a crazy person thing, right? But if we are literally sitting there. talking to our dogs and there you like. like isn't it going to be like who could.

who could think that's a crazy theory to. say well I mean we did it the moment. that we had technology that was capable. we did it. >> Wouldn't probably any species do that? Like doesn't that suggest that when you. get smart enough you want to make things. somewhat in your own image? It gets back. to Skynet earlier, you know, like if we. make animals more into our own image. >> Is it really crazy to think that we are. the result of something like that? And. actually, so I'm a religious person. Um, I'm a Christian and I feel like what you. see where God was created or man was.

created in God's image, it's I I feel. like it's reflected in our desire to. create things in our own image. And so I. I I think I think there's a certain. beautiful symmetry there. Uh it's where. it's if if we're if we're doing it, it's. actually easier for people to believe I. think that it happened to us. It's. easier for people to believe that we. have a creator who wanted to create. something in his own image when we are. doing the same. Well, also just this. sentiment that you were discussing of.

taking an animal and making it more. intelligent. If we found a planet, if. so, let's say we get to, you know, a. couple thousand years of technological. evolution past where we're at now, we. can travel to other galaxies and we find. primates. >> Yeah. >> And we're like, well, they're they're on. the way. They're on the way, but they. need like 300 million years before they. get to where we are. >> We wouldn't want to wait. >> Why would we wait? And maybe that's just. a seeding process. Maybe that's. something that happens all throughout. the universe where these, you know, intelligence farmers just drop seeds in.

various areas and just take animals, manipulate them, turn them into. something that's superior and that has a. lust for innovation. Yep. >> Which is one of the weirder things about. us. We were talking about this last. night at the mothership. We're on the. green room. We're talking about like one. thing that human beings share in common. with everything we do. Everyone's trying. to make the best version of everything. Yes. and better versions. Whether it's. sports, the athletes of today are better. than the athletes of 20 years ago, whether it's computers, whether it's. televisions, any kind of technology,

music, everything wants to be better. than anything before. So, we're. constantly trying to make better stuff. >> I I I would I would even go beyond it's. I think it's not even better. It's that. we seek novel things. >> Yes. >> And you like humans are programmed to. seek novelty. And I think it's it's. clearly been an evolutionarily. advantageous trait. Yes, you societies. that foster seeking of novel experiences. build stronger cultures, stronger. technologies, and then then by the way, the groups that don't seek novelty end.

up becoming stagnant. You could even. argue that many of the cultures that. remain stagnant like you kind of saw. plateauing happen with, for example, a. lot of Native American tribes. I think. that it was a loss of uh drive for. novelty. like and that's not to say that. they're a lesser culture, but certainly. they were not focused on seeking novel. experiences. >> What's really fascinating when we think. about human beings in particular is that. people that lived in those tribes did. not want to civilize and that the people.

that were even captured by Indians. A. lot of them wanted to stay. >> Yep. because they found that to resonate. more with being a human being because we. had lived so many thousands of years as. hunter gatherers that that resonated. with your being. It seemed more. spiritually in tune with being a human. being than living in a city and wearing. a suit and. >> you know food from a store. >> Anyone who's ever been on a camping trip. understands what you're talking about.

>> But imagine you can you can feel it. People were not meant to live in urban. jungles. great Vice piece back when Vice. was really interesting. Uh it's called. Hinemo's Arctic Adventure and it's this. guy who uh he lives north of the Arctic. Circle or near the Arctic Circle. >> and he has a cabin up there and he's. grandfathered in and he's been there. forever. I think he started working. there in the 1970s. This guy, he didn't. even know about 9/11 until way later. Someone showed him a picture of what.

happened. He has a television and VHS. tapes and a log cabin and powered by a. generator and all he does is hunt. caribou and fish and he's very. intelligent. And so this nerdy reporter. from [ __ ] Williamsburg is hanging out. with this guy or wherever he's from and. this guy's explaining how this resonates. with being a human being. Y. >> like this is a much more satisfying way. of living and I think that this is how. people are supposed to live. >> That's so interesting. On the one hand,

I agree. But then I love like I mean I. love that human the human race is doing. a pretty good job of seeking novelty. because that's what if we all hunt if we. all I mean maybe it's that uh maybe it's. that. >> you know maybe hunting caribou is what. makes us happy but you still need the. guy who wants. >> to go for something else. >> But you also need a singer. You also. need a guy who likes to make be a. carpenter. You need you need all types. of different human beings and different. personality traits and different. interests to make this whole experiment. of civilization work. >> What do you think about nostalgia? Cuz.

I've been thinking about this a lot for. a variety of reasons and it's kind of. the opposite of what we're talking. about. We're talking like novel. experiences, new things, >> you know, like like driving towards the. future. >> There's some people who I feel like look. down on nostalgia. They're like, "Oh, you're obsessed with the past kind of. needlessly. It's feel good." I feel like. like obsessing over the past I think is. healthy in a lot of ways and I think. it's even good to look at the past with. rose tinted glasses because there's so. much that we could learn from the past.

and should learn from the past. If we. didn't look at things with rose tinted. glasses, my theory is that the new like. imagine you look at the future. possibilities and the past you know. teachings identically with no favoring. It feels like you're naturally going to. prefer the new thing that hasn't really. shown all the downfalls yet. I'm I'm I. guess I'm getting I'm a big fan of. nostalgia. I'm a big fan of of looking. at the parts of the past that worked and. then lionizing those and reminding. people why they worked. Um like there's. a lot of people who actually say this is.

fascist now. Have you heard of this? >> The nostalgia is fascist. >> Nostalgia is fascist. If you Google it, you look up nostalgia is fascist, you. will find this is like this this is like. a cutting edge theory of the last year. They're saying, "Oh, all this appeal to. uh, you know, appeal to the 90s, it's. pro-fascist." Because they're trying to. make you believe that there was a better. time to believe that going backwards in. society is is is is a good thing. As if. the 1990s were like some like hot bed of. injustice and and and oppression.

>> That's interesting. I think nostalgia is. fun, but I don't spend a lot of time. thinking about the past. Um, I do when. it comes to art. I do when it comes to. music and and in particularly the role. of psychedelics. >> in the influence of culture that. happened in the 1960s which I think is. the greatest cultural shift of change in. in recorded history. There's some the. difference in the 50s and the 60s just. this radical change in the way people. saw life and how many people were just.

like exiting normal society. >> and then how they threw water on that. with the passing of the psychedelics act. in 1970. But I think that. >> well it seems like things are going in a. different direction. So just you know. I'm straight edge. I don't use any. drugs. Um I didn't drink alcohol till. very recently. I just had my first kid. He's a year old. >> And you started drinking soon as you had. a kid. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was it was lit like my. whole life. No drinking, no nicotine, no. caffeine, no alcohol, no drugs. Yeah. I. had a kid and I decided it was start. time to start drinking. >> Why is that? Why is that? >> Um it just you you have enough uh you.

have enough hard hard nights and and. hard days taking care of the kid and you. say, you know, I totally get it, man. I. totally understand why everyone's why. everyone's having beers on the weekend. >> There's certainly a place for it. There's certainly a place for it. >> But I'm curious why why uh why nostalgia. and art? I'm not disagreeing actually. I. think I I mean I showed you ear earlier. >> Well, I'm a I'm I'm completely. fascinated with the 1960s in terms of uh. I'm a huge fan of 1960s automobiles. >> What year were you born? >> 67. >> Okay. Interesting.

>> Um when I was a kid in high school in. which is really I was in high school in. the 1980s. So, I went to high school, first year was 81, which is not that far. away from 1970, right? Like that's 11. years. Like an 11year-old car, if you. had a a 2016 Toyota, it looks exactly. like a 2025 Toyota. There's not much. difference at all. You would have to be. like a car nut to notice the difference. >> But when I was a kid in 1981, if someone.

drove by in a 1970 Chevel, everybody. stopped and stared at like, whoa. It was. like that nostalgia was real because we. recognized that something had happened. to American manufacturing, particularly. in automobile manufacturing where they. just lost the magic. >> They had magic in the 1960s. The. Corvette. art. >> Yes. >> They were engineering, they were art, they were an expression of American. culture. >> And it went away. Y. >> it went away in the 1970s. They turned. into dog [ __ ] Well, see, this is kind.

of what I'm talking about where I said. talk about the importance of nostalgia. cuz like you want to look back at the. things that worked and like I think a. lot of these companies they'd have they. they would have you just forget that it. ever was works of art that these cars. could be this way. >> I think we need to learn from that and. not let them cuz like now cars are. turning into like subscriberbased. appliances get I mean like. >> that's kind of gross. I've heard that. there's some cars that charge you money. if you want to use Apple CarPlay. >> That's right. Well, there well there's. some that are also charging you to use.

uh all of your uh your uh your heating. and cooling functionality. There's ones. they're adding like you can just put. >> charge me more for your car and don't. [ __ ] me. >> Well, some of them are you're paying. more it's paying more to unlock more. horsepower. It's like wait, you're. making the car. It has the parts and. you're not getting. >> crazy. >> You know, a lot of these and and and. then a lot of these business approaches. are actually coming I think not from the. car industry. They're stealing them from. the tech and also the gaming industry. Like there was a time when these things, you know, people were making video. games. They would make a game, you'd buy.

it, you owned a video game and and that. was it. And they made the best game they. could sell you at a store. >> Mhm. >> And these days, they're making games and. and and also a lot of apps into like. these subscription experience. You have. to keep paying money. They're making. content that's just farmed to keep you. hooked on the drip continuously. You. don't see these masterpieces the way. that you used to. And uh that that. that's that's something I've been I've. been super passionate about. Like. >> it is gross that they do that. They just. hook you in because they know you're.

hooked already. >> That's right. >> And so you you want the new BMW or. whatever the car is and you know like oh. I'll just pay the monthly. Who gives a. [ __ ] It's just one more subscription. that comes out of my auto pay. >> Yeah. I I feel like there needs to be a. bit of a concerted push back from people. who remember before we're gone. Yes. Like like one of the things that's crazy. to me like you know like for you it's. cars cuz you that's that's you grew up. you grew up during that shift as the. industry kind of to your point lost.

something. >> Um but like I grew up with like the. Nintendo Game Boy and a lot of these. things were like the ear it was kind of. like the early days of gaming where it. was all these passionate people doing. things because they really desperately. wanted to. It was before all the bean. counters got in. It was before all the. regulators got in. figured out how to turn it into this. >> You used to be able to make a game with. a dozen people. And of course, you could. still do that today. I don't want to. romanticize it too much, but like you. could make a bestselling game back then. with you know a dozen people. And these.

are all crazy people who could be making. more money working in let's say like. farming or industrial manufacturing and. instead they decided to be game. programmers. Today you'll have game. teams that are thousands of people and. it's all you know it's become a very. highpaying high prestige job. It's just. a it's a it's it's a totally it's a. totally different universe. >> It's also a giant business now, right? It's been proven that it's a huge money. maker. >> It's purely it's totally financialized. now. Like it's it's optimized by the. bean counters. How are we going to make. $5 billion in profit this year,

>> right? And the the video game industry. is bigger than the movie industry, right? >> It is. And actually, and it's and it has. been even for a while. I think that. happened like I want to say it was like. six or seven years ago that the the. games industry um I showed you before we. we came on I have this knockoff of the. Nintendo Game Boy that I made. >> Um I remember I talked about that web. forum I started with. >> a superior Game Boy. You can feel it. just holding on to it. >> So actually this one is even nicer than. the ones that we normally sell. This is. my personal Andre edition one. So, this.

is made with the same alloys we use in. our attack drones. And the coating on it. is a is a wearroof cerakote ceramic. >> It feels like very sturdy. >> Also, that the screen lens instead of. plastic like on the original Game Boy, it's actually lab grown sapphire. crystal. It's the largest piece of. sapphire crystal in any product ever in. history. And then Exactly. But then we. we made a new version of Tetris for it. >> That's incredible. >> Whoops. But um but the the the thing so.

is interesting about this like I turn it. on, the game is instantly going. Like. there's no ads, there's no. subscriptions. It doesn't say log in and. download the updates. Let us show you. the pre-roll ads. Now you need to make a. user account and put in all your user. preferences and give us access to your. email and give us access to your social. media if you want to have the extra. booster packs. Like. >> it's just. >> access to your social media. >> Oh, that's a very common thing now. A. lot of games they are heavily. incentivizing linking your social media. accounts to your game accounts and. letting them see your contacts, your. friends list. Well, because they want.

all that data. They want to know who. they can market to. They want to see. what your demographics are. They want to. say what what is this customer like? How. >> do you opt out? >> So, there are some games that require. you to have social media integration. There's other you have people with dark. patterns. >> No. So like there there are these there. these patterns that exist in social. media design and in app design that. steer you down a particular direction. and so they don't force you to do it but. the average user unless they're trying. to fight their way out of it is going to. do it. So for example I'll be logging.

into a game I've just downloaded. Overwatch 2 and it says you need to log. in. You can either go through this. extremely convoluted process of creating. a new only Overwatch 2 Blizzard account. or you can click the button that says. log in with Google or log in with. Facebook. What are 99? And then it you. click it and it says. >> to do this you have to give us. permission to see this this this this. and look you and I care about this stuff. cuz we're I think we're relics who. remember when privacy was a thing and.

when some things are for yourself. A lot. of these kids they just don't care. >> They just click it. You talk you talk to. the Gen Z kids and it's like what well. why do you want are you gonna give that. away? They say well. >> like they they they don't see value in. it and they grew up with that as the. norm and that's why I say it's important. to remember when it wasn't the norm. >> Do people get dummy accounts so that. they can give a dummy account to that. >> there are people who do it but most. people don't and also here like the. thing is they make it where there's even. reasons where you want it to be tied to. your social media. So they want to. gather lots of information and you know.

get you plugged into their marketing. ecosystem and they say oh if you if you. log in with this social media account. then it can we can automatically add all. of your friends to your in-game friends. list so you don't have to go and. manually invite them. So they they like. it is a convenience feature but the. thing is they could do that. >> without storing all that data and giving. them persistent access to all your. social media accounts and seeing. everything that you're posting. >> Some of these apps even you give them. permission to post on your behalf. Oh, >> and what what they do is like this was a.

this was innovated kind of by like the. Farmville stuff. Do you remember. Farmville. >> and you had to say the reason it was so. viral is when you would do stuff in. Farmville, it would literally post on. your wall and say, "Oh, Palmer just did. this. Palmer just visited Joe's farm and. helped him do this.". >> Those tactics have evolved. way beyond to make these things very. sticky, very addictive. So look, you can. make a fake account, you can make a. burner account, and there's like 1% of. people who will ever think of doing. something like that. And so, um, so for.

them, it's just about mass. And I. wouldn't mind so much if it was just. about making money. Like making money is. is fine. Like I'm I'm I'm a believer in. the free market generally. I'm a. believer in capitalism strongly. But. then the problem is you have this. combination of capitalismdriven capture. efforts compared uh combined with people. who don't care about making money nearly. so much as pushing their particular. social ideals. Like you've you've. probably seen this in Hollywood. You. certainly see it in the games industry.

where you have people who are joining. the industry not because they want to. make great games, not even because they. want to make money. Uh and I say like. making great games is the best reason. Making money is an acceptable reason. it's because they want to uh you know. bring about greater equity and. representation of people that look like. them. And like that's fine to have as a. thing in the back of your mind, but. there's people who are joining where. that is what they want to do. And anyone. who's against it, they're going to. berate them. Anyone in the company who. says, "I actually think we should make.

games for our customers, not the people. you wish were our customers." Like, "Let's make games for the guys who buy. our games, not the moms you wish were. buying our games." And people like that. are being ejected out of companies. It's. I mean it's very politically incorrect. There's a question. >> Well, that's the Bud Light dilemma, right? >> Exactly. Well, >> they tried to make Bud Light for people. who don't want Bud Light and make fun of. the Bud Light people. >> It's the mythical audience. It's like. it's a mythical mainstream audience. They they they say they and you know, it's even worse in gaming because.

they'll say things like, "Oh, you know, 50% of gamers are are are are uh you. know, stay-at-home moms." And you're. like, "What? that that obviously isn't. true. And what it is is it's something. like there's a lot of stay at homes. who've played Candy Crush a few times. and like there's a lot of them and. they're like therefore we need to build. to that market. Okay. >> Like I I don't want to get into a fight. over like what a gamer is, but what do. you think sounds like a better business. plan to go after the young men primarily. who buy a dozen$50.

games a year or the mom who once spent. $5 on Candy Crush? like, you know, and. and there's there's kind And if you and. if you say that, if you put it the way I. just put it, they're like, "That's so. sexist of you. Why why don't you want to. bring in new audiences?" Um, I saw this. when I was in I saw this when I was in. Silicon Valley. What I called it was uh. I said, "There's too many people who. drink Starbucks and not enough who drink. Mountain Dew." And you know exactly what. I mean when I say that. It's it's just.

it's it's been a really bizarre thing to. watch in in all of these different in. all of these different industries. >> Yeah, it's a mind virus. It captured. universities and then it bled out into. corporations. >> One of my one of my favorite questions. to ask people is uh you know start. starting a company is hard. You can't. you'll fail most of the time even when. you don't constrain yourself to trying. to you know change change the social. system. Like look, if you could if you. could make it where uh there's uh if you. could make it where there's all those.

like all those moms all get into games. and it was free like that would be great. but it's not it's a trade-off right you. have to take resources you would have. put on your customer your real customers. and put it towards them. One question I. ask people is just ideologically is okay. imagine your job is to build uh is to. build a a corporate building for a. company and uh the company you know. exactly who they are. You know how many. men there are. you know how many women. there are. We don't have to say how many. there are. Like, we're not Don't even. Don't make it about one gender versus.

another. It's just there are lots of. men. There's lots of women. I won't pick. a number. When you're designing this. building, should you have the number of. bathrooms that would best serve the. actual gender makeup of the company that. would allow them to use the bathroom and. get back to their desk without waiting. in line? Or would you do anything else? Like, would you pursue a different. strategy? And if it's different, say, "What would your strategy be?" And many. people say, "Well, I would build it, you. know, perfect 50/50." And if they say, "Well, that I'm doing that because it's,

you know, the easiest way to do it." I'm. like, "Okay, that's fine." But if they. say, "Well, I would, you know, I would I. would hope that I would stri I want to. create an environment where it it will. it should eventually be 50% men and 50%. women." I say, "Okay, so wait, you're. going to you have a company 90% men, 10%. women. you think the men should have to. wait in line five times as long at the. bathroom because someday that might make. more women want to work at this company. And it's one of those it's one of those. really interesting dividing questions. where it's basically do you want to. solve the problem that allows your.

business to succeed or are you trying to. achieve totally parallel social aims at. the expense of the business and. companies are hiring a lot of people who. think about it that way. They don't see. their role as to come in and make the. company better or to make a better. product for their customer. They see it. as to come in and affect that change. even if it tanks the company in the. process. Have you seen. >> how did that happen? >> Dude, I don't know. >> where that's common. >> I I think that probably you let I mean. there's a lot of theories. I can give.

you mine. It was the zero interest rate. phenomenon theory. Are you familiar with. this? The zero interest rate phenomenon. ZERP they call it or some people call. the zero interest rate period. Um so. ZERP was this period of time that we've. really seen over the last 15 years up. until very recently where money was. basically free to borrow. That's where. you've seen so much economic growth. You've seen a lot of it artificially. propped up in the tech and the media. industry. I think a lot of like these.

streaming plays have been propped up by. Zerp. When interest rates are extremely. low and money is very cheap to borrow. People will spend tons and tons and tons. of money. The economy appears to be. doing very well, you have the growth. that looks good on the stock market. And. so companies don't need to ever tighten. their belts. They can hire and hire and. hire. They can become grossly. inefficient. They can p pursue things. that don't make money. And they're still. doing okay. And so a lot of these. companies, they they their their. employees were kind of out of control. You had people coming out of college who. believed their job was to change the.

world by using the money of these. corporations. And the corporations. didn't push back on it because they. would be accused of being bigots and. committing hate crimes. And they said, you know what, the stock is going up, everything's going well, we can just. keep doing this. Um, my theory is. actually that interest rates going up. have been very good for solving this. problem. You've seen a lot of layoffs in. the tech industry. You've seen a lot of. layoffs in the media industry. I think. that a lot of those are driven by. interest rates rising, money's not free, and now companies have to actually make.

what people want. Uh, did you see, and. you probably didn't, but did you happen. to see the first quarterly earnings call. by the new CEO of Warner Brothers who. came in a year or two? He came in a year. or two ago, and it was incredible. He he. he had this speech that was exactly what. fans wanted to hear and what investors. wanted to hear, but his employees were. furious. He came on and said, "In my. tenure, I'm going to pursue something.

that's bit novel for Warner Brothers. Instead of m making movies that people. don't want to see, I'm going to make. movies that people do want to see. Instead of making movies that don't make. money, instead we will make movies that. do make money. And to do that, we are. going to make products that people want, like Batman and Lord of the Rings and. Harry Potter. And that is going to be. the core of our market success. And like. that's what fans want. They're like, "Oh. my god, this is great. They're not.

they're going to stop making these kind. of social justice pieces and make us the. things that we actually want." The. investors love it cuz he says they're. going to make money. But the people were. angry were all of the college students. who joined thinking that they were going. to use billions of dollars from Warner. Brothers to make their pet you pet art. film projects about about various. oppressed groups. And I think that that. is happening across the industry. And I. think I think that's I think that's a. good thing. It's a good adjustment. >> That makes sense. So speaking of making. things,

>> the helmet, bust out the helmet, son. >> All right. So, let me I'm going to take. this off and. >> so I've been working on headmounted. place for a long time. I created the. Oculus Rift when I was 19 years old, living in a camper trailer in my garage. And that was really the virtual reality. headset that changed the industry. Sold. that company for billions of dollars. And now that I'm working in the national. security space, I've continued to. believe that virtual reality, augmented. reality is going to be a critical part. of our military. So, the ability to have. night vision, thermal vision, but also.

the ability to see where all the bad. guys are, see where all the good guys. are by fusing everyone's view together. Think of it almost like a hive mind. If. I'm able to see something, you should be. able to see it. If a drone can see it, you should be able to see it. Even if. it's on the other side of a building, you should be able to see it and. effectively have x-ray vision. And I. should be able to command and control. all these other systems using this. heads-up display interface. It's I mean, none none of what I'm saying sounds that. crazy, right? It just sounds like any. science fiction film. These are ideas. that have been around for a hundred.

years, but only very recently has it. become possible. So, this is a new. product that we just announced at the. Army's conference yesterday. We've been. working on it for years using our own. money. No taxpayer dollars were used to. create it. Um, it's called Eagle Eye and. it is an integrated ballistic shell. So, you've got a helmet. Um, you've got. hearing protection. You've got thermal. sensors, night sensors, uh, uh, signals, intelligence sensors that allow you to. detect where cell phones are, where. radios are, see that in your view. It.

even detects where gunshots are, shows. them exactly where they're placed and. how far they are. >> So, this is the this is a recreation of. it. So, this is. >> Yeah, this is a So, this is a video feed. of what it is like to use the system. So, I've got the helmet on here and then. what I have is this pair of augmented. reality glasses. Um, so basically I can. take these glasses. and I put them on. These sync with the. helmet and with these sensors so I can.

for example see where my gun is. pointing. I can see where every enemy. is. I can see where all of my buddies. are. I can see. So, like there's a. there's a view that's coming up here. where you're gonna notice a drone picks. up a guy behind that container over. there. And what's gonna happen is when. he walks behind that container, I'm able. to continue to see where he is and what. he's doing. So, here's Ghost X is the. drone that's watching. So, just watch. for a moment. So, the blue force is my. friendlies. So, see that little right.

hand corner where it sees behind the. containers? >> They're tracking where the bad guy is. They're tracking where my guys are. And. then watch when they go behind the. container. >> So I can actually see through it and. watch. Now they're engaging the guy over. there and he's down. >> Wow. >> Imagine a guy's coming over a hill and I. want to engage him. So actually I'm. going to put on the mission shield. There we go. So um this is a system that. allows everybody to basically be. operating as one one combined hive mind.

where you can all share a view of the. world. And by the way, this view that I. have, it's shared now with all of the. robots as well. So all the anything I. see, like let's say I see someone inside. of a building, every drone and every. person now sees that person where he is. It's so crazy that I was born at the. right time to actually get to build all. this stuff because you know, Robert. Heinland, the science fiction author who. did Starship Troopers, >> okay? Um, he was literally writing about.

these ideas of mobile infantry that's. wearing mech suits and ballistics. prediction, like helmets that show you. the bad guys, give you radar feeds, give. you night vision, give you thermal. vision, the ability to uh to do. ballistics targeting where it calculates. where the wind is going to blow you. around and and where where it's going to. go. He was literally writing about this. in the 1940s. I mean, we're talking. about almost a hundred years ago. Wow. And we happened to be born in the right. time. So, you know, uh, too too late to. too late to explore the the seas, too.

early to explore the stars, but just in. time to build eagle-eye. >> You're in the right timeline. >> I am in the right time. >> Do you ever feel like it's a simulation. because of that? Do you ever feel like. you're living in some sort of bizarre. simulation? Because otherwise, like, why. you why why lives why do you have such a. unique existence? Why are you so. fortunate? Why why are all these cool. things happening for you? >> It's like I'm reliving my nights here in. the room with you now. I I ponder it a. lot cuz I mean look, we talked earlier. about how I would only be able to pull.

off these things I pulled off if I. continuously succeeded over and over and. over again. And it does make you think. like what are the odds of that? Is it is. it more likely that the world is a. simulation. >> or not? And I think actually it just. comes down to. >> it comes down to I I'm a spiritual. person. I believe in the existence of a. higher creator of a higher power. And I. feel like there's actually a lot of. similarities between that and believing. in simulation theory. I mean, like when. people people say, "Oh, it's, you know, it's all a simulation." Is that really.

so different from having a universe that. was created by an all powerful being? Like you could like it's almost I I I. often feel like simulation theory is. just normal religion wrapped up in a. package that a person who claims to be a. religious can uh can partake in. And. they're like, "No, I would never believe. in, you know, a sky daddy. I just. believe that we live in a world created. by a higher being and that he's watching. our every move and learning from it and. helping us along the way." I don't know, man. That's you're you're you're you're.

hitting on a lot of the tenants of what. what were they trying to write down when. they were writing the initial religious. texts? Like what were they actually. describing when you're talking about. something that's an oral tradition? >> Let me pop up the There we go. I can pop. out this. >> Can I put that on? Yes, absolutely. >> What are you seeing right now? >> So, right now, nothing. Unfortunately, if I'm going to give you a good demo, we. need to go to an area where it's synced. up to all the other helmets and we we're. in a night. I I want to show you the. night. >> I like how the ears pop out, though. >> Yeah. This is This is a This is my.

doing. Um, so I'm a huge weapons. enthusiast. I own about 450 guns. Huge. number of, you know, I I own basically. everything that anyone's ever fought in. So, ballistic vests, uniforms, boots, gloves, helmets. I've just I I collect. that stuff. And so one of the cool parts. about Eagle Eye is I got to bring all my. opinions on what things should be and I. can just jam them jam them into the. product. So like the cool thing about. this is like you if you've ever used. earring protection normally, you know, it pops up like this and you know it's.

kind of dangling in the way. Notice how. it's really tightly integrated like it's. not flopping around but I can pop it. open and now I can hear you directly. with my own two ears. I can pop that and. clip it back in and I'm able to hear. with electronic pass through and it. actually uh enhances my hearing. so I. can hear certain things better. And. you'll notice this is ballistic ear. protection. So have you ever seen like a. high cut helmet where you know you can. have low cut helmets where they protect. your ears more? High cut helmets where. there's no ballistic protection over. your hearing protection. This is. ballistic hearing protection. So when I. put this on everything is protected with.

armor, even over the soft tissue in my. ears and around my upper neck. >> Is there any concern about the hinge or. that during combat it would pop open? >> No. No. This is it's a it's a super. robust system. So here, I'll actually. show you. Um, let me pull off. So these. are modular sensor pods at the top. They. call them wolf ears. Um, but I can. basically swap these even in the field. So I could carry, for example. >> Well, but that seemed too easy to take. off. >> Magnets, buddy. >> Right. But I'm saying if if you're in. the middle of a scramble and you're. >> here, check this one out. This one has.

no this one has no connector on it. This. is this one is a these are not actually. real modules. These are bas. >> this is a tricky one where we have real. modules and show modules. The real. modules in general, the army doesn't. want to have them passed around and. people taking pictures of them. Like at. AUSA, there's people walking up taking. pictures of everything in the booth. They don't want you to show off, for. example, the size of the aperture of the. thermal imager you're using because then. they can back reverse how far you can. see, what level of thermal radiation you. can see. So yeah, these these are Yeah,

normally you actually when it has a. connector in there, you got to actually. jam it in there and it's retained. >> And so have you done tests where like. people fall down off of hills and go for. a tumble? So, this technology, the the. last revision of it is already with the. army. They're doing trials and tests of. this literally right now. >> Um, but like if you if you look here, >> it's a basically a spring steel. mechanism there. And so, it's not just. strong, it's also flexible. So, it's it. basically it can bend and then snap. back. And so, you it's very very hard to. over bend this, overextend this. And if.

you did, like it's very hard, but if you. did, you grab some pliers and you you. bend it back. And notice how that's a. replaceable module there. I can just. unscrew this and replace it with a new. part. Everything on here I can repair in. the field with a field repair kit as. well. >> And does it have the same functionality. as like Walker game ears where you can. amplify outside noises but then when a. loud boom comes off your ear is. protected. >> Exactly. But it's even better. We're. using an array of So those ones you have. two microphones like the walkers they. typically have one here, one here. What.

we're doing is a phased array of. microphones so that I can actually steer. the amplification beam. Like I I could. say, "Hey, like I could I could set. >> footsteps over in this left direction. Let's point in that.". >> Well, even crazier, imagine that I'm. looking at a target with this and I look. at that target. It can cancel out all of. the other sound that it knows is coming. out of phase with that direction and. distance. And it can give me just the. sound there coming from that as best it. can. So, it can give me not just. enhanced hearing, but directional.

enhanced hearing. I can say, "I want to. listen to what that guy 100 yards over. there is saying. I'm not promising. you'll be able to hear, but you'll be. able to hear it a lot better than you. would than you would without it. Um, >> so it's worth noting like the way this. came together is crazy. There was a. contract to do this to build an infantry. combat heads of display uh in 2017 and. 2018 that was awarded to Microsoft by. the United States Army. It was $22. billion. 22 billion to develop this technology.

And I actually wanted to compete in that. competition back then, but at the time. Androll was only about two dozen people. And so it was a competition. Do you. remember Magic Leap? The dog. >> Yeah. >> It was a competition between Magic Leap. and Microsoft. Microsoft ended up. winning. I think that's probably good. because the guy who was running Magic. Leap was not really a fan of the. military. And I think it's dangerous to. have. even if you don't, it's fine to not like. the military, but you shouldn't have. people who don't like the military. running the military, right?

people and I think you shouldn't have. people who are in love with the military. regulating the military, right? You. know, everyone everyone has their role. >> Anyway, uh I never I never I was very. skeptical of their technology. Uh you. remember Hollow Lens? >> Mhm. >> That was Microsoft's like consumer. virtual reality, augmented reality uh. effort. Um, their AR project was. adapting that to the military into this. product called IBBAS. And uh, to make a very very long story short, it.

had a lot of problems. Their early. hardware was making people sick. It was. it had lag. The night vision wasn't. working well. There were soldier. evaluation touch points that came out. where they were saying, "Hey, I'll I'll. get killed if I wear this." Microsoft. invested a lot of money trying to make. it better, but eventually they ended up. killing even their consumer hall lens. division. and they just shut everything. down. And so the crazy part of this. whole story is starting a few years ago, I started going to Microsoft and saying, "Hey, will you guys just give me the. IVAS program? Like, will you just let me. take over? You guys can keep building,

you know, Microsoft applications, cloud. computing, the stuff you're good at. Let. me build the tactical heads-up display. hardware." And when I first talked to. them years ago, they thought I was nuts. Like they they was almost like insulted. It was like when Microsoft tried to buy. Nintendo and they got laugh literally. laughed out of the room. Um, and then as. time went on, they started to laugh less. and less and eventually they they said, "Hey, remember how you said you wanted. to take over IBAS. We would actually. love to partner with you on this and let.

you bring your magic to bear on this. problem." And I'm I'm I try to be a. humble guy. I don't usually succeed, but. I am not humble in this one regard. I. believe that I am the world's best. headmounted display designer, bar none. I took the crown with the Oculus Rift. I. think I still hold it. And so I was able. to kick the program into shape. We built. our own hardware and we've built. eagle-eye over the last couple of years. And it is it basically solves all the. problems that the program had. It is the. thing that I think is actually going to.

end up on the heads of every soldier. Here, try try taking these on. And. you'll feel they're a bit heavier than. normal glasses. >> But the other thing about them is that. they're also ballistic rated glasses. So. you see in the front and then also on. the sides. Yeah. So like these can take. pieces of frag. So, if someone's. attacking you with a drone and it blows. up, this is going to keep those from. going into your orbitals, which is a. pretty important function for glasses. And. >> yeah, I would say so. What is this uh. outside piece? >> So, so yeah, put put the glass try. putting the glass back on. See if you. can pop that off. You'll notice like. that one is is actually Yeah, there we. go. Perfect. So, that's a mission.

shield. >> Um, I like that you asked about it. because actually, no, nobody's even. noticed really that it's two pieces. So, the mission shield is a piece that. allows you to reconfigure the glasses. for different use cases. If you're using. this, for example, to like give you. automated instructions on how to repair. your Humvey, for example, I don't need. to have that ballistic cover on the. front because I don't need that extra. like I don't expect that I'm going to. have an explosion happen and and protect. my eyes. >> But you can also do things like have.

different types of protection. For. example, that's not an that's just a. normal ballistic mission shield. We have. another mission shield that protects you. from laser energy weapons. So, it's. actually tuned where now it makes your. vision turn. I I I probably shouldn't. talk about exactly what color because it. allows people to figure out what. frequencies we're blocking, but there. are mission shields that you can put on. that will protect you from weapons that. we know China has. China has a bunch of. directed energy laser weapons. Some of. them for taking out drones, others. designed to blind human troops. And so,

we're designing mission shields that. protect you from those types of. emissions. >> They're designed to blind human troops. So, are they employed from drones? >> I don't want to be I don't want to be. too. >> I don't want to be too aggressive here. because I'll tell you the United States. has weapons that are designed to. temporarily blind people as well. Now, the thing is temporary blinding is very. close to permanent blinding and it's a. thin line. It's dependent on the range. It's dependent on the power level. >> Any system that can temporarily blind.

people at long range is capable of. blinding people permanently at long. range. It's just that that's the line. you walk. Like if you want it to work in. any fog, you need more power. If you. want it to work at long ranges, you need. more power. But like for example, imagine we deployed a bunch of these. glasses and they had the laser filters. built in from the start. Now imagine. that China shifts their laser. frequencies 10 nanometers so that it. bypasses that filter. Imagine if I had. to just replace all my AR glasses. That's not acceptable, right? So. everything on this system is totally.

modular. So what would happen is if they. shifted their laser weapons, we would. just give people a new mission shield. Now they're all set. >> That mission seal comes off very easy. though. >> So this comes Look, I got to admit these. are primarily for like showing off to. the army. Um, >> so it'll somehow another secure into. place. >> It's actually still going to be magnets. It's just going to be a lot more force. to remove. >> I'm wondering how much I should get into. the movie magic here. So look, I I'll. get a little bit into it. I'm mostly an engineer. I mostly build.

stuff but a big part of what I do is. understanding what magicians think when. they are drawing attention to things. when they have patter you when you're. going through a demo of something to. somebody like I used to demo the Oculus. Rift to thousands of people a year. highowered executives government people. um you uh uh CEOs of major game. companies people we're trying to hire. and you have to develop a pattern of how. you talk about stuff and you need to be. able to go in any direction if Somebody.

says, "Well, what about this?" You need. to be able to show them that feature. You need to be ready for how you show. the feature. I need to be intimately. familiar with every part of it. The. reason that the magnets are so weak on. this is because we show this to people. who are weak. >> I'm I'm I'm not kidding. If you actually. have like cuz you're not swapping this. like as you're running around, right? So. like on the real one, you can have you. know where you're like, you know, >> and it busts off, right? >> But imagine this. Imagine we're sitting. in a in a demo room and then you hand. this to either a member of the press or. even let's say a member of the armed.

armed forces and I say, "Here you go.". And your name is Ashley. Take that, Ashley. >> Okay. >> Pull it off. And you uh uh uh uh that's. the problem. And like cuz you need some. decent F. You see those tabs on the end? See how see like the protrusions? Yeah. That's to make it easier for your. fingers to grab when you have way more. force. >> There are people who have really weak. fingers. They don't really know how to. grab stuff. And then uh. >> it's actually the same thing with it's. >> I understand what you're saying. >> So I'm I'm showing you a little bit of. the the movie the movie magic behind.

behind how I think these here. If you. want to take this, you can put it on. This is an actual weighted helmet. We've. developed a bunch of novel technology. makes this work. You're Oh, yeah. It. actually fits on you. >> Oh, here your little wrap your your your. chin straps wrapped around. >> here. Just Sorry. I I wrapped it around. before you even had it. Yep. There you. go. But yeah, if you're familiar with. walkers, very very similar what we do on. the hearing enhancement side. It's just. a world even beyond that. Is it too.

tight or you got it? >> And then this snaps. Oh yeah. >> How does this snap? >> So here, let I might have to come. around. There's a little bit of a trick. that you you learn it. What it does is. it goes in and then you're going to push. it up and back diagonally. Oh, you did. it. There you go. >> Figured it out. >> I'm so glad. See, that's just how. intuitive it is. Yeah, >> but uh it's and the cool thing about. this is you don't have these like mounts. now that are snagging you. >> here. Well, you got to put on the. glasses, too. There you go. You don't. have the mounts that are snagging you. You don't like Have you ever you've used. night vision?

>> I have. >> I mean, it's just, you know, you have. this big giant unicorn horn, this thing. pounding on your fist. Also, it's very. unbalanced. Weight that's out here is. torquing your neck continuously, and. it's it's it's annoying when you're. standing in place. But if you, let's. say, hit a pothole in a humvey with a. big weight on the end of a lever, you. destroy your neck. Nick, I think it's. 20. >> Oh my god. I That can't even be right. I. want to say I want I I need to look this.

up. It might be. >> is it 200 million for the Air Force and. then I want to say it's 20 billion. dollar that the DoD spends on neck. injuries. >> Well, primarily through the through the. VA, right? There's so many neck injuries. that occur from spinal compression, people getting their heads whipped. around. That's why helmets need to be. extremely lightweight, tightly. integrated, no snag hazards. Like, it's. important that you not have, you know, a. big giant, you know, bulky thing where. I'm going through a doorway and it gets. >> on there and all of a sudden I go in a. weird angle and I'm trying to run.

through a room or like someone's turning. and part of their rifle, you they're. right up on me and it snags on my helmet. and pulls me. Like you've probably seen. a lot of people put like big battery. packs for their night vision on back. here. >> Same thing. It creates a huge snag snag. hazard like you're sliding down. something or sliding over an edge. You. clear it and then the back of your head. hits that fence and you go boom. >> What's the battery power of something. like that? >> Okay. So, this has a tiny battery pack. on it. This has 30 minutes of battery. life. >> So, what is the lithium ion capacity? Is.

it lithium ion? Is it like a like a cell. phone battery? So, the battery on here. is actually uh the battery that is in. here is basically an emergency reserve. It is not intended to power it most of. the time. It is a primary cell chemistry. that won't burst into flames. It's. basically one time use. So, it's like. think of it like an emergency battery. that runs it when your helmet is. disconnected from the main battery. The. main battery is this. >> So, you ever used ballistic plates. before? >> Yes. >> So, this is a standard geometry sappy. geometry plate. Um this.

>> good for rocking. Exactly. >> Some weight to it. >> So the cool thing about this is it's a. combination battery, computer, and. ballistic plate. And so so here's the. craziest part about this. Normally you. would wear a plate and then you would. have to wear a battery and a computer. That's how everyone's always done. heads-up displays before. And I realize. that's crazy because you need that space. for other stuff, right? You want to be. carrying ammo. You want to be carrying. equipment. You want to be carrying uh. grenades or or or admin stuff. you you. you can't use your most valuable real.

estate to just carry a battery brick. So, what's in here is a battery. technology that is an electrolyte-free. solid state ceramic battery. Now, ceramic batteries are not as high energy. density as in terms of like they don't. have they don't have as much energy per. pound as the very very best like let's. say car electric batteries, but they're. pretty good ballistic material. And so. what I realized is that you instead of. having the weight of a ballistic plate.

and then the weight of a battery on top, you should combine those two functions. You should make your battery part of. your ballistic material stack up so that. like is it the best ballistic material. in the world? No. Is it the best battery. material in the world? No. But you can have enough of it that it's. better than either of those things. working separately. Like if I were to. try to make a system that was a normal. armor plate. >> and then also this much battery. So like.

uh you notice we actually got all the. power actually labeled right here. So. this is 900watth battery. If we were to. have a plate and then a battery, it. would be like a plate this big and then. like another big battery on top. By. combining the two, I've made it where. I've eliminated something like 10 pounds. from the soldier's ruck, which is a huge. deal because that's weight I can either. keep out of his ruck. >> Yeah. >> Or I can uh. >> or I can just put more [ __ ] into it. Of. course, what all my buddies in the army.

tell me is, Palmer, don't let them take. those 10 pounds and give me 10 pounds. more [ __ ] They're all these guys are. already carrying an insane amount of. stuff. And so this is only the start. We're building a bunch of other augments. that combine multiple systems into one. thing. Um, like in fact, this has also. got a bunch of radio hardware in it as. well. So, if you can replace a radio and. your batteries and your ballistics and. your onboard computer all in one thing, that's pretty cool. Uh, but I I want to. keep keep doing that,

>> dude. >> I will so in general, I would recommend. using this as your rear plate, not your. front plate. So, if you got a rear and a. front, the rear is probably the one that. you want to put this in because if you. do get shot in the plate, uh you don't. want it to you're more likely to get. shot in the front than the back. And you. don't want to get shot and then you lose. all of your energy to run all of your. sensors, your night vision, and. everything else. And if you get shot. with a plate, it's possible to take that. plate and swap it with a fresh one. Um. >> I I mean, look, you're the world's.

biggest badass if you're able to do that. in a firefight. I don't think most. people are bad enough to, you know, take. a hit right in the chest and then pull. out their plate and slap another one in, but it does happen. And so I we're. generally recommending that people use. this as the rear plate to make it less. likely to get shot, but fully capable of. operating in front plate service. >> This is amazing stuff, man. >> Dude, I love my job. I get to work with. I can tell. >> the the just the coolest technology on. the bleeding edge of all this. And the. best part is that the gains, it's not so.

much in some people, they they they see. these gains and they get to make money. off of it, but I do this and I get to. have end users telling me, "Palmer, this. is how you saved our unit's life. Palmer, this is how your technology. protected our base. Palmer, people would. be dead in this particular building if. you had not developed the technology. that you did." That is the most. rewarding thing that you can do. At. least it's the most rewarding thing that. I've ever done. Yeah, it's it's it's a. it's a it's it's a really cool set of. problems and I I highly encourage people.

who are really smart to look at doing. this stuff because some people they say, "Oh, I don't want to work on weapons. You know, it's ethically fraught." And. the point I make to them is that this is. whether you like it or not, we need some. formal weapons, right? We're not going. to disarm the entire world. There are. bad guys out there. We need to have. something. And if you are worried about. the ethics of weapons, it's actually. even more important that you work on. them because there's no moral high. ground in outsourcing that work to. people who are less ethical and less. competent than you. If you think you're. a competent person and you think you're.

an ethical person, you almost have a. responsibility to care about these and. and arguably to work on them. So that's. that's the way that I look at it. >> Well, it's cool as [ __ ] I'm glad you're. making it, man. And I really enjoyed. this conversation. I'm really glad we. did this. >> This is a lot of fun. >> So much fun. I' I've got to get you out. sometime. >> I would love to. >> to the r cuz we've got a test range. where we can give you a rifle. You'll be. able to mark targets. >> Let's [ __ ] go. Let's do it. Let's do. it. Thank you very much. It's really. fun. Thanks for being here. All right.

Bye, everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].