Joe Rogan Experience #2388 - Lionel Richie

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> How we doing? Good. >> We're rolling. >> Pleasure to meet you, sir. >> It's about time. >> Yes. Thank you very much for being here. This is an honor. It. >> is. Same here, man. Same here. >> How does a person like you. fit your life into a book? Because you.

Your career is so wide and so long. You've had so many experiences from the. Commodores in the ' 70s. >> The 70s still rocking. >> 70s. >> 70s. >> So Joe, let me tell you something. Uh it. it really accounts for I'll tell you the. joke of the book first. Okay. >> Right. I'm probably the only guy in the. world that had a book had a book with. probably a thousand pages in it. I.

turned a thousand pages in. They said, "What the hell is this?". >> And I said, "Wore in peace. >> I've wore." And I said, "And I've got. some more stories." I got some more. stories. And so for the first time in. the history of Harper's probably, they. said, "Mr. Richie, no more stories. We. don't need any more stories. In fact, can we take some of the stories out?". >> Oh, no. So to answer your question, we. can't fit all of my life story in a. book, but we just had to find the ones. that were actually, you know, humorous. in certain cases, uh, educational in.

certain cases cuz it's wide. It's it's. big and that and but I enjoyed the. process of kind of looking back because. if you understand me, I I have the. Italian race car drivers theory. What's. behind me doesn't count. It's what's in. front of me. >> That's a very good way of looking at. life. So, so what this book made me do. was actually turn around and look behind. me. And I tell you what I discovered. I. I discovered Lionel Richie because up to.

this point, I had never really gone into. the depths of how I got here. I just. remember cuz you want you want to. forget. >> You just kept going. >> Just kept going. Look, keep going. straight. You tripped over that. I don't. remember. You tripped over that. I don't. remember. What's next? >> Yeah. Yeah, >> you try to kind of, you know, it's like. playing football. You got hit really. badly on that last play, >> but you go back to the huddle. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Are you hurt? You won't know until. tonight after you get off the field, and. they'll tell you you broke your arm. You.

know what I'm saying? But it's it's. >> it's really don't stop moving forward. And that's really what this whole thing. was. This exercise in this book was. really for me to actually go, hm, I I. can't believe I did that. Did you learn. anything about yourself from going back. and and just recalling all these stories. and putting them to paper? >> Did I learn? Did I Did I learn? Absolutely. It's if you had said to me. uh when I first started my life, you.

know, my dad used to always have this. line over and over again. You know, uh. a great fighter is not determined by how. many punches he can throw. It's how many. punches he can take. And I realized that I could take. punches. Um, I'm the most unlikely person to take. a punch because I'm not that guy. Uh, if. I can talk my way out of it, I will. But. if you understand life itself, number. one, that's difficult. And then if you.

start thinking about the music business, the entertainment business, it's an. impossibility. You're going to get. punched every day of your life. And. what's that punch? No. No. No. No. That's the punch. Now, can you get up. off the floor and come back? Can you get. a bad review and come back? Can they not. like you and you come back? Can you find. that that's a humorous thing instead of. a tragic thing? Can you come back? Can. you lose friends along the way? Can you. come back? So, you don't really realize,

you know, this is a business. If you. look at it, think about how many people. we've lost. >> When I started writing this book, >> I started thinking to myself, where's Luther? M. >> where's Michael? I want to tell you more. stories about Prince, but it's not fair. because in certain cases I want him to. be here to laugh with the joke too, >> right? >> You follow me? >> And so then you start realizing, >> damn, this is lucky. This is really. blessed time now because. >> I'm in rare survival air, if you will.

I'm still here at at 200 years old. talking about my career, but I'm telling. the story. Someone else is not telling. it for me. That's important. That's. important, >> right? Because so many times when. someone passes and then you get this. sort of cobbled together version of. their life without their own unique. personal perspective, you miss a lot. >> You miss a lot. And especially things. that people thought were. terrifying or tragic.

If you talk to the person themselves, that was a learning experience. So you. keep thinking, "Oh my god, what did you. do when that happened?" And you go, "No, no, no, no, no. I needed that cuz I. wouldn't have been to the next person if. I had not experienced that because it's. it's like trying to go, you know, to. scrimmage before a big game. You're. you're with your team. Well, they hit. harder from the other team. So, you got. to practice hard. Well, the only way to. get into the music business, you got to.

be on the field. Practice is not in the. equation, >> right? >> You got to get out on the field. And. it's nasty. And it's not designed for. you to survive. And I try to say this to. the kids on American Idol. I said, "Listen, I love you. You got a great. personality, but you better hope like. hell you have a sense of humor. Cuz if. you don't, it's going to eat you up alive.". >> Did you develop this mentality along the.

way or was this something that you just. uniquely had? >> Um, I This is my This is my character. I. I I if you understand something, I was. and I tell this joke all the time. I was. I was um too small to play football, too. short to play basketball. Um baseball. was a projectile coming at me at 300. miles an hour. I'm not standing in front. of that thing. And the only thing I. could play was tennis. So, you. understand? And walking around on a. tennis court in the middle of the sim. civil rights movement, you know, it you.

have to develop a sense of humor. otherwise you're going to die. And so so. I I found also again it's funny what. your father will say to you uh back and. you wonder how did he get through all of. his life cuz they went through the. struggle of life and he said if you lose. your sense of humor they got you. and I always remembered the fact that if. you can find something funny out of this. experience. take that haha to the next day. And so I.

kind of use that as my mantra basically. that okay um where am I? I'm at the. Grammys. Okay, what am I complaining. about? I'm complaining about I don't. like my seat. What did they just say? I. won. Who cares? >> You know what I'm saying? Or you're just. at the Grammys. You know how many people. don't get to come to the Grammys just on. the invitation. And so you have to go.

back and look at this as far as is it. really that serious or you know you have. to kind of put things in perspective. And so you know the first half of my. career was just a matter of. how do I get there? The second half of. my career is can I please try to enjoy a. little bit of it? And that's where I am. right now because you know it's the song. stuck around. More importantly, I'm still here, which.

is the blessing because. >> you're still here and you look great. >> Well, I'll take that as a compliment. >> You really do. You look very healthy. >> Well, considering. >> my energy. >> Looking at you across the table from me, I think I left my muscles back in the. hotel room, but. but you know, it it's all about um two. and a half hour show a night for the. last 50 years. Um that's my uh that's my. golf game. >> Training. training cuz you got to be. ready for two and a half hours and I. don't care what you think you're the.

greatest guy in the world. I'll put you. on that stage and give you 50,000 people. and you after running with a night or. all night long sing a sing a slow song. I dare you. >> Yeah. And do it since 1970. Like what. was the Commodore 72? Did you guys. start? >> Well, let me tell you. We started in '. 68. >> Wow. >> On the on the university campus. we were. students. Uh it started out as a group. called the Mystics and we were the.

talent show. We didn't realize that we. were the joke of the seniors of the. juniors, but they have a freshman talent. show every year and we wanted to be the. band to be the freshman talent show. We. came out on stage and killed it. And it. was a guy, another group there called. the Jays, which was the seniors. They. had been there for the last four years. and they were the biggest group on. campus. They were about to break up and. a guy named Michael Gilbert gave us a. phone call and said, "I want to put a.

group together and I was looking at you. four guys. Would you like to come and join this. band over here?". The answer is that was the beginning of. the Commodores. >> And how old were you at the time? >> 19 years old. >> Wow. >> Thank you very much. >> Wow. >> 19 years old and we're going to take. over the world, Joe. You know what I. mean? other words, you know, there's the. there's James Brown, there's Marvin, and. there's the Commodores. You know, you.

know how that works, you know. >> And what I love about that period of. time, we could be, you know, all right, all. wrong, but we were all together. >> It didn't make any difference. So, we. experienced every possible imaginable. part of growing up together. I didn't. grow up with brothers. I had one sister. So these became, forget the band. These. were five brothers. And we were in every disaster you could.

possibly think about. And we laughed our. way in and out of every Today we'd all. be in jail. You know what I mean? Right. I can make that statement. I mean, but. back then it was ah it was the best. And. at 19 years of age, you're just starting. starting to become a man. And then. you're thrust into superstardom in a. crazy time in human history. It was. well, first of all, it we didn't really. get into recording until 7172.

We were just the biggest, largest, most. dynamic band in our heads. across the South. And until we were the. opening act for the Jackson 5, their. first tour that they went out on, we. were the opening act for them. That was. our first look at, holy crap, this is. this is huge. And then I'm I'm an. economics major, an accounting minor, and all of a sudden, I kept thinking, I.

don't know what this business is, but um. I think I want to be in it. Because you have to understand. something. When you play tennis, what's the number one thing you will. never hear ever? A girl screaming. That's not going to. happen. Football, basketball, you hear. them all day long. I was going to be an. Episcopal priest thinking that's my. avenue. And I'm on stage one night at. the Jackson Show and all of a sudden.

some girl said, "Sing it, baby.". And I said, called the minister back on. the phone. I said, "I don't think I'm. going to be priest material.". I just want you to understand, you know, you you you have to know at that point. >> You have to identify your lane. You. know, I had never heard that, Joe, in my. life. >> Of course, who you know what I'm saying? And. >> how many people ever get to hear it, baby? >> 20 21 years old, right? I got an.

emotion. Thank you very much. And from. that point on, it was just a matter of. riding this wave of we finished that. Jackson tour. Um, we end up in Mottown, Hollywood Bowl. They saw the Mottown saw. us there. Suzanne Deass was of course. the one who put the the Jacksons. together and all that. She knew us from. uh from our manager Cape Cod and. Martha's Vineyard Island. Next thing we know, we're recording.

Wow. >> Hallelujah. >> And then you're off to the races. >> We're off to the races. Off to the races, Joe. And I tell you, you know, looking at this book, it's a question. I survived or how I. survived. But the question to me was I survived. >> because it it's not it's I mean I can.

tell you stories and it well they're in. the book but I'm just saying there are. moments when you just look around and go. thank God for just being naive young. stupid didn't have any idea of what the. heck you were doing but what a great. adventure. I'm in a subway 4:00 in the. morning. My saxophone. and I had this little secret thing that. no one knew. I had this seat. >> sheath seath.

>> sheath around my neck. Didn't know it. had a secret compartment. Of course, everybody in Harlem knew it was a secret. compartment. I had all my money in that. I'm walking around going, "No one knows. I have my money in there, right?" Which. is everybody knew I had my money there. I would walk up and down the subway. No. one would touch us. No one. I don't. know. It has to be a sense of divine. guidance. or big Frank Lucas just told everybody, "Don't touch us." One or the other. But. I mean, it was just one of those moments.

in time where, you know, I've had some. people say to me, "You were in Harlem at. 4:00 in the morning in the subway. alone." I said, "Yeah.". >> With a saxophone. >> With a saxophone. God bless you, kid. Wow. >> God bless you. It's It must seem almost surreal looking. back because you've had such an. incredible life, such an incredible. career. It almost I mean, I can't. imagine what it feels like just.

reminiscing and going through the. stories and and just just looking at the. actual facts of what you did. I'm glad I'm doing the book now because. otherwise I would be um let's say when I. got to about 98 99 cuz I'm planning on a. full life, right? There's an old man at the barber shop. still telling lies about his life when. he was growing up, you know, because. they it has to be a lie, you know? And.

and you know, and there was one title I was joking. around with, which is you're not going. to believe this [ __ ]. That would be a great title. >> That would be the title, you know, and I. was thinking that might be the way to. go. Then, of course, I kept thinking, no, but from a philosophical point of. view, that's not going to fly, right? Okay, we'll pull that back. But the. point is, it's almost not believable. >> I mean, when you start. calling off names, it's almost like name. dropping. And you start thinking about.

who mentored you, who gave you the. advice, who was there for you exactly at. the right time, who came in, who left, right on time. You know what I'm saying? There are moments that happen that if I. tried to script this thing, if I tried. to put it down as a complete play, chapter by chapter, you know, act by. act, you couldn't make this up. I mean, it just it reads like a like a book.

>> or like a crazy movie. Like if your life. was a movie, I'd be like, >> "Yeah, >> that seems a little unrealistic." Yeah. >> Too many good things happening that way. >> Yeah. Yeah. But Yeah. Yeah. To the point. where somebody says I remember a couple. of my uh friends uh. um Oh, why am I drawing a blank? Um Rick. James, Rick James had a great line for. me. Every time he saw me, I said, "Rick, how you doing? I hate you. And that's means I love you, but I hate.

you. I I hate you, man. And of course, I. get it, you know, because. things along the way become almost. charmed, >> right? >> You know, it's like, okay. Um, did I go. out and call Dick Clark and say I wanted. to host the American Music Awards? No. No. He called me and said, "Lionel, forget that guy in New York. Forget that. guy in New York. You're doing it. You're.

doing it. I mean, forget that guy." And. now, whoever that that guy was, the gift. was handed to me. And now I spent the. next two or three weeks trying to. convince Mr. Clark. that I don't have any training in how to. be a host. And that's when he would come to me and. say, "Ah, you school boys are all the. all the same. You think you need a. diploma before you think you know. something." You know, these lines that. come out of.

>> this whole story, you know, that's not. orchestrated. That's not scripted. It. came from the other side back this way. >> Yeah. Do you feel charmed? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Do you feel like whatever reason? >> The word I'll use is blessed. Um um. it's one of those things where uh my. grandmother said something to me a while. a while back. I just finished um I just. finished Endless Love and uh I went back.

to Tuskegee and I'm walking around in. the house pacing back and forth and she. says, "What on earth are you doing?" And. I said, "I'm trying to figure out my. next move.". And she said, "Did you come to school to. uh join the Commodore?" She said, "No, no. I I I I met them. I met them on the. campus." She said, "Did you plan on. being a writer?" No, no, no, no. I found. out I was a writer. She said, "Did you. plan on being a lead singer?" I said, "No, no, no, no. I I found out when I. joined the group that she said, "Why.

don't you just get a good night's sleep. and wait for God to give you the next. >> Wow.". >> And that's how I started my career. That's an incredible woman, you know. >> That's incredible perspective. >> Quit trying to figure this out. Did you. figure it out before? No. Then just. relax. >> Chill out. Can you read and write music? No. Okay. Just. chill out. That's so hard to tell a. young person though and have them absorb. it cuz especially someone going through.

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be 21 plus. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad. Hard seltzer NT malt alcohol. Orange County California. >> Yeah, it's um um I try to tell the kids. on American Idol, you know, sometimes. you have to look at failure as a great. sign. Uh if they had told the Commodores on. the first time we auditioned, you got. it, ready to go. The answer is we.

weren't ready to go. It took no and no. and no. And we at signing at Atlantic. No. Signing at Philly International. No. But we're the greatest band ever. You're. right. What did uh they say to us? Um. you sound just like the Temptations. You. sound just like Sly the Family Stone. What do you sound like? Wow. What do we sound like? I don't know. M.

So the only way we have to find out is. we have to start not imitating somebody. else. Now comes the thing of well but. what do we sound like. >> right? >> And I didn't know I didn't know how to. write. So I How do you write? You follow. me? And then you get to Mottown. I'm. signed to Mottown. I don't know how to read or write music. What the hell am I doing here with this. this band? I'm not the lead singer. I.

sing some cover songs and then you walk. down the hall and there's Marvin. So I. decided I'm going to interview Marvin. Uh, excuse me, Marvin. Uh, what music. conservatory did you graduate from? And. he said, "What the hell is that?". I said, "Oh, I mean, how do you write. your music?" He said, "No, no, no, brother. Can you hum?" Yeah. He says, "All that you can't play with three. fingers, hum it into a tape recorder.". And then you go down the hall again and.

Smokey and there's Barry Gordy who built. Mottown. Uh, excuse me, Mr. Gordy. What. uh what university did you graduate. from? He said, "I'm at I was at a car. plant." What are you talking about? Everything that I grew up with on the. campus of Tuskegee as a kid. I grew up. on the university campus. That's. academia. Did not apply in the world of hustle. >> You understand? >> Yeah. So I'm now meeting the guys and. ladies who found their hustle.

>> They had a PhD in hustle. >> They had a PhD in hustle. And I am. telling you, Joe, from that moment on, I. was let out of the box. Somebody let me. out of the cage. Because in academia, there's a logical reason why you know. what you know because you studied it, >> right? >> But I was that kid that was sitting in. the class going. Mr. Richie, Mr. Richie,

would you like to join the rest of the. class? >> I was daydreaming, >> right? >> I found at Mottown the whole damn. company was tapping on the table. >> Ah, >> I found out in New York City, whole town. is tapping on the table and dancing, right? And so from that point on, I. joined this creative. source force fraternity sorority of. crazy out of control people that gave me.

permission to dare to listen to myself. That must have been so exciting to learn. that that the structure that you learned. in academia like no these wizards these. wizards of music these masters of giving. people emotion and power and energy. >> right I mean I I I get chills sitting. talking to you watching Marvin. record and you keep thinking he walked. in with a paper and he he had written. these lyrics. No man, he is scatting at.

the microphone. >> Really? >> Oh, say the B. You know, and I'm. thinking to myself, what am I watching? >> Wow. >> And then he said, bring the microphone. over to the couch. He's on the couch. singing in the couch in the control. room. What? What's When am I watching? What's What's happening? In other words, it was just so organic and so, you know, because you think about the orchestra.

and they're there and the No, man. This. is. inside of a wonderful dream of watching. creativity just explode with no. no doors, no windows, no walls. >> And he was making this up in real time. >> Wow. Oh. >> Uh, you're talking about freestyle. My. man was freestyling, coming up with some. of the greatest lyrics ever on life's. planet. And I kept thinking, "Okay, so.

let me go back and put that in my little. hamper.". >> So, was did he have an idea of where he. was going with these songs? >> I think he had a feeling about the idea, but did he know the exact words? >> You know, it's like when you close your. eyes and you're in it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But see, I didn't understand how to be. in it, you know. I I kept thinking, well, let me put it this way. I was. trying to think. >> So, you because of the academic.

background. >> Yeah. You're trying to logically. there's a logical reason why you're. about to say what you're going to say, >> right? >> Instead of just saying, "Okay, just turn. on the mic.". >> Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? Just turn on. the mic, man. I got it. You know, to. this day, I I have a thing that I do. that still wears out my management and. um I have to do a speech or something. and they say, "Okay, uh can you give me. the speech so we can put it on the. teleprompter?" And I said, "I I I don't.

have a speech to give you." Lionel, we. need the speech to put on the. teleprompter so you'll know what to say. I I I I don't know what I'm going to. say. What do you mean you don't know. what to say? I said, "No, I won't know. what I'm going to say until I get. there.". And I walk out on stage. I said, "Now, how long do you want the speech?" They. said, "Could we have five minutes? I'll. give you five minutes worth of speech.". They just have to trust you. >> Wow. >> That's how I do it.

>> And you learn from watching the greats. >> The great. And that that must have been. such an unique shift in perspective and. how you view the world and how you. approach things to see people to know. that you're daydreaming was actually. just talent trying to burst free. >> Exactly. >> And they knew how to just take that. talent and just be unharnessed. >> It was to the point where. I was actually trained. You know this is.

grandma Foster am Foster. She quoted my grandfather. in Booker T. Washington's house. That's where she came from. Tuskegee. My grandfather. They knew Booker T. She. knew George Washington Carver. >> In my home in Tuskegee, Alabama, there's. a crocheted piece from Mr. Carver. Dr. Carver. My dear Mrs. Foster,

congratulations on your wedding. >> Wow. >> That's a crocheted piece. The the deed. to my house has the Washington family's. name on the deed to my house. It was. given to me and not to me, to my. grandmother and grandfather, by the. Washington family, Booker T. So now when. you have all of that background, it's. kind of one of those things where do you. go with this thing, you know? >> Right. And so, you know, my my. upbringing was pretty pretty amazing.

where it had structure. Had structure. And now here I am over in this other. side where. Wait a minute. You mean I don't have to. remember anything. I can make up. something. >> Whoa. >> And allow the universe to just give you. >> Whoa. Well, yeah. I can just. make up something. But what do you want to make up? I don't. know. So then it's a word that we. learned called receiving.

>> I'm just receiving. So now where does. receiving come from? >> Yeah. >> Receiving comes from the silence. It's not the noise. It's in the silence. >> Right. >> So here I am between. 1 and 6 in the morning. and everyone thinks. what's Lionel doing? He's just kind of. sitting in there. What's he doing? Nothing. But let me hear Let me let you in on a.

little sound that's terrifying to most. people. You ready for this? You hear that, Joe? >> Silence. All right. Now, if you can hear. out of the silence. comes the you're receiving that from the. other side. >> It is a receiving, isn't it? >> Yeah. When you, you know, sometimes you.

just have to just blank it out. Some. people call it meditation. >> Some people have all kind of names for. it. I just love to listen to silence. By. the way, there's only 12 notes, Joe. It's not 145 notes. It's only 12 notes. So everything that has ever happened. that you've ever heard on any radio, it's only 12 notes. So how do you turn. 12 notes into something that sounds new, different?

That's amazing to me. >> Yeah, it is amazing. And so in the. silence and all you have to do is learn. how to figure out what are the four. chords because if you got four or five. chords you can write a whole album. but it's the melody that goes on top. that you have to be able to hear. And so. once I learned that. Marvin and Smokey and you know Michael. Quincy and you know these are Hendricks. I just saw the poster coming in. You.

know, they all made careers. Not only. careers, they had their unique sound out. of 12 notes. >> Think about that. >> Now, if you think it's hard enough to. get a hit record, how do you become. unique unto yourself, right, >> with those 12 notes? >> That is one of the geniuses of Hrix is. that you could tell Hrix with like in 3. seconds. >> He didn't have to come in singing. No. No. You just heard a little bit of. guitar and he knew.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You can hum it. You can. Yeah. Right. >> Six was nine. That's Hrix. Like there's. a sound that he was able to make. >> And there's very few people that figure. out how to do that. >> I did I did not understand that. >> Um the blessing was not in having a hit. record. >> The blessing was in having unique sound. >> Okay. Stevie sounds like Stevie. Smokey. sounds like Smokey. You know what I'm. saying?

>> And so when you start thinking about, okay, now, by the way, you can't. rehearse that. >> That's either your gift. >> or you you can't say, well, I'm going to. work on my sound. No, it's it's a real thing. That's why. when we do we are um when we do American. Idol, I tell them over and over again, I'm not looking for singers. I'm looking. for stylist. What's going to make me close my eyes. and remember you? I don't want to see. you. Can I identify you by your voice?

That's a career. Do you have conversations with people. that don't know how to receive? And do. you try to like when you're talking to a. young artist and maybe they're a little. bit too technical or maybe they're a. little bit too constrained, >> do you have conversations with them. about what do you say to them? >> Yeah, I do. Um, and I could see their. frustration, you know. Um, Lionel, I.

can't believe it's amazing how you went. to that augmented seventh with a. diminished nine with a raised 18th with. a 45. And I'm sitting there going, I. can't read music. And he goes, and the. way you did that modulation from. And I said, I can't read music. And he. kept saying, and the way you turned that. vocal around, it came back down to that. augmented seventh over raised ninth. And. I kept saying, I can't read music. >> Wow. >> So I tried to tell them, listen,

forget the notes. Can the crowd sing your song? M. >> if they can't sing you a song, dazzling. them with notes is not going to get it. That's the first thing. That's for the. guys who can read and write and do the. full Giuliard and Berkeley and Killer. That's for them. Now for the kids who. are just brilliant by the way and they. know their music. but they don't know how to receive.

my answer now is now that you know the. technical forget it. now tell me what you're feeling. now play that. >> and instead of playing 15 chords. play one and hum as much as you can. holding in that one chord. And then when you get tired of putting. everything in that one chord, that's the. second chord coming up. You follow me?

>> Yeah. >> Because what happens as musicians, they. want to go, we are the. >> No, no, no. Stop playing. Bang. We are. the world. Bang. We are. Just keep. holding that go. Bang. We are the ones. that make a brighter day. Let's not get. bang. There's a bang. >> Yeah. >> Now you change. >> Yeah. >> You follow me? >> Yeah. >> Because if you confuse me and you dazzle. the world with all of your musicianship, you just miss the melody that the whole.

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It's because remember now when Marvin. said to me, he was giving me the words. of wisdom when. when um Norman Whitfield who wrote. Cloud9 and all these you know just. amazing temptation songs. Cloud9 be what you want to be. You can. you don't need no responsibility. Everybody come in now.

He's playing He's playing one note. >> Wow. >> Okay. They hadn't changed yet. He wrote. the whole first verse. Okay. Ball of. confusion. He's still on one note. >> Wow. >> Okay. It takes time to understand what. that master just told you, >> right? >> You follow me? >> Yeah. >> And then once you understand the. simplicity. is the secret. M. >> the simplicity is the secret.

>> It's like when you go to a restaurant. and they put too much sauce on the. steak. >> I couldn't have given you a better. answer. You didn't have to do that. Just. just give me some chicken. >> Yeah. >> Give me fried chicken. I mean, give me. baked chicken. Give me smothered. chicken. Don't don't don't get too. crazy, >> right? And at the end, just give me an. apple pie. >> Give me just give me key lime pie. Just. just. >> you know what I'm saying? Give me a. lemon mering. Give me pumpkin pie. >> You don't have to get crazy. don't get. we have a deconstructed. >> Yeah. >> and I go just put it together. Put the.

whole thing together and give it to me. You know, that's. >> because that that's sometimes with some. music. Well, that's one of the things. you can't connect to. It's like it's. over complicated and you hear some music. and it's like, God, there's so much. going on and then you hear some acoustic. version of a song, you're like, "Oh my. god.". >> That's it. >> Oh my god. Yeah. You just you hear the. the the pick scratching across the. strings like, "Oh my god.". >> Yeah. Mr. Mr. Gordy. I I I've I've known. him enough now where I can say Barry, but he's clearly Mr. Gordy, you know,

>> clearly. >> he taught me the greatest line ever. Um. I went to him and I met him in the. hallway and he would never ever. say, "Oh, congratulations. You got a hit. record." That's not what he would say. He'd always say, "Ah, Marvin's got a hit. Marin's got a smash. coming out." I go, "Mr. Gord, I just. want to let you know I have a number one. record. That's that's nice. Marvin's got. one coming out. It's going to be a. smash. And then what do you have next?

What do you have next? And then I said, "Okay, well, I got a hit record." He. says, "Um," I said, "Let me go out to. the car and get a tape. I want want you. to hear it." No, no, no. You got a hit. record. Hum it to me. Wow. Hum it to me. If you need to play music, you got a. nice tune. There's your tempo. Now, hum it to me. >> Wow.

>> Now, that means the the crowd is going. to sing along every note with you. You. don't have to wait to the hook. >> They'll sing the verse with you. >> What is that pressure like? >> I would love to tell you, was it. pressure? >> No. >> No. I would tell you that there's an old. expression. um that a jazz musician said to me years. ago. You either understand or you don't. >> You can either hear it, >> right? >> Or you don't. That's all it is. In other.

words, if and and my line is. >> if you can hear me tapping on the table. >> and all you hear is me tapping on the. table, you're not a songwriter. >> Ah, >> but if you hear me tap on the table. >> and you start. >> and you hear a song, >> yeah, >> you're a songwriter. Class dismissed, >> right? >> We don't have to waste any more time. It. is a bizarre thing that creativity which.

is one of the most important things in. our society cannot be taught. >> No. No. I mean I mean. >> you meet brand new person every day. I. meet crowds of people. You meet. one-on-one people every day. That's difficult. That's difficult. And. to know something about them and wanting. to find out more and how does your. personality work with that other person? That's a skill. But that's not even a. skill. That's not something you. practice. That's something you had in.

you from way down deep. It's just the. more you do it, you got better and. better at being. >> that person. >> That's exactly correct. >> You follow me? Yeah. >> So, if I said to you right now, how did. you study that, Joe? You go, just. >> turn on turn on the mic. >> Well, I would tell you I got I just got. very fortunate that a job existed that. didn't exist before, which is. podcasting, where you get to talk to. interesting people. >> There you go. And luckily for me, I I. don't have anybody telling me who to. have on. So I just go through I have.

like a line of emails every day and I'm. like, "Ooh, Lionel Rich. [ __ ] yeah." I. said, "Fuck yeah, that one.". >> I put down I put down, "Fuck yeah, Lion. Rich.". >> But there's a bunch like that. Like, "Oo, I'd like to talk to him." But. there's some guy who's an astronomer. Oh. yeah, bring him on. I'm going to see. some of his stuff. Then I'll go watch. some videos, listen to him give. lectures. I'm like, "All right." Yeah. >> But to me, it's just I'm just very. fortunate that this is just how my. personality is. I'm just curious about. how people think. >> Well, you I mean, again, it's one of. those things out of your natural.

curiosity, that's you. >> Yeah. >> You follow me? Well, out of my. natural ADD, ADHD, hyper sensitive, whatever they use when I was growing up, I found it all serves me well because it. all came out in songwriting. It it does. serve you well, which is so important. for people to hear. Everybody wants to. diagnose everybody and medicate them. >> I had for sure ADHD when I was a kid. >> Oh, please. >> I think everybody that I know that's.

talented and creative has ADHD, whatever. that means. >> I tell all the parents, leave them. alone. >> Leave them alone. >> Leave them alone. No, there's there's. two types of kids, and I keep trying to. tell them. >> There's academics. They're great. You. want them to remember. They can. remember. They can recite. They do. numbers. And then there's the creatives. Okay. The last thing you want to do is. put a creative kid in a room full of. academics. The grades are not going to. be great, right? >> And you're going to worry them to death. >> Yeah.

>> Put them in a creative school where they. they're nurtured into their Yes. They. they they're going to they're going to. work on math and yes, they'll work on. their science, but don't make that the. priority. No one to this day has ever. asked to see my college degree. No one to this day has ever asked me to. see my high school diploma. >> You understand me? So, so was I an A. student, B student, C student, C. student, babes? I mean, I was right. there on the borderline of disaster,

>> but I was just happy to be there, >> right? >> But the point was. >> it's not important, >> right? >> What did you end up being? Who did you. end up discovering? How comfortable are. you with yourself? By the time you get. out of elementary school school, going. into high school, you're so inundated. And let me tell you what's wrong with. Lionel. Lionel has a problem with And if. you listen to that crap, by the time you. go into college, it's not happening. But now, here's the.

joke. They told my family, my mom and. dad, ah, truthfully, Lionel is not. college material. I mean, in other. words, he's he should be creative. You. know who? They forgot to tell me. The best thing they ever did, they. didn't tell me about that conversation, which means it was okay. I didn't use. that as my crutch. >> Don't tell somebody they have a. handicap. Just leave them alone. >> Just let them figure out what they.

actually like. >> because it's not a handicap. In other. words, I I learned years ago. a race car driver, he sees 200 m an hour. as can I get this to go any faster. Magic Johnson, the basketball goal looks. like the size of the inside of a of a. building. That's how big it is in his. head. To me and you, it's a little tiny. thing at the other end of the court. You. follow me? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So my point is everybody has a.

unique brain and how they see things. Quit trying to put everybody in this one. little box. If we can set up education where let. those that see it in freestyle has a. freestyle moment, >> we'll get more out of kids, we'll get. more out of people if you just quit. trying to condemn them and let them. flourish in their lane, if you will. >> Yeah. >> And that's the special part. Yes. Okay. Reading and writing. You got it. That's. important. >> And now with with AI coming and all this.

stuff, you don't have to do that. anymore. But I'm just saying it's. >> there's some basics you have to have. But then after that, I think we're we're. crippling our kids because we're giving. them too many gotas in a world that's. constantly changing. >> Yes. Especially now. >> Especially now. >> But if you if you your child is a. creative, the problem is that is such a. gamble. Say if your child wants to be a lawyer, you go, "Okay, you go to law school, you. get your degree, pass the bar, get work. for a firm, you're a lawyer, there's a. path, right?

>> You want to be a singer." Like, "Oh, Christ.". >> My my recommendation, >> get the law degree and then try to be a. singer. >> Have a backup plan. >> Back up. I mean, other words, you know, in my case, I didn't have a backup plan. I mean, I luckily my freshman year I. found that thing and I mean, how did it. work? That's why I said to you, is it. divine guidance? >> It's divine guidance. >> I didn't have a plan B. But I'm sure. there would have been one if it was time.

for that to come into play. >> Yeah. >> If I told you how many lawyers now, excuse me, how many. lawyers started out as singers? They wanted to be in a band. If I told. you how many people that are now on Wall. Street, what do they do on the weekends? They have a band. Yep. >> You follow me? >> Oh, yeah. There's a lot of that. >> And so, as time goes on, okay, so you're. not the lead singer, but you're the. lawyer in the record company or you're. the manager or you're the agent. You. follow what I'm saying? There's 99.

million jobs under the word. entertainment, >> right? >> It's just that maybe you weren't going. to be the star. >> of the show, >> but you're in the show. That's easy for. Lionel Richie to say though. If you're. that lawyer that wishes he was a star, that's a real problem. >> I know. And trust me, I run into those. guys who hate me. They. >> Oh, yeah. Lionel Richie. Oh, yeah. Right. No, I I I get it. Of course. >> I get it. And and and. I I understand it. It's um And by the.

way, I mean, what what I like about the. book is everyone, just to let you know, it it sounds like, you know, I I won. I. won. No, it was a struggle. I'm the. shiest guy in the world. It was painful. Joe, walking on that stage, I said it. was a freshman talent show. The curtains. open. I went off with the curtains. I The only reason that I was on that. stage, I didn't grow up with the guys in. the Mystics. They didn't know that.

Lionel Richie from Tuskegee, Alabama was. the shiest kid in town. They didn't know that. These are guys. that I didn't grow up with. >> Oh. >> So they said, "Hey, hey, man. You. brought your horn?" "Yeah." "You want to. be in a band?" Now you're talking to a. kid who goes, "Okay, we're going to do a. baseball team." What was the answer? Okay, we'll take Lionel. >> Which, okay, let's do a basketball game. Okay. All right. We'll take Lionel.

>> Let's play football. Okay, we'll take. Lionel. These guys came along and said, "Hey, you got your horn?" "Yeah, yeah. You want to be in our band?". Yeah. Right. >> Right. >> Bingo. You mean you don't know about me? >> You don't have to be defined by other. people's ideas of you. >> That's exactly right. So, they said and. they said, "Okay, here's the part." And. I can you play the saxophone? Yeah, man. I play I didn't tell them I brought the. horn to school to learn how to play it,

>> but I could play by ear. I could play by. ear. So unless we're reading music, I. sound like I know what I'm talking. about. >> Right. >> So it's became one of those things. And. by the time I got in the Commodores, >> I didn't tell anybody. >> I'm the greatest horn holder that ever. lived. Are you kidding me? >> So just keep that secret and keep on. going. But what I'm saying to you, just. think about this for a moment. I mean,

it didn't start out with confidence. They came out with a sooner or later. they're going to know I'm an impostor. and slowly but surely who worked the. hardest. me. Cuz sooner or later they're going to. find out. >> you got to catch up. >> That I got to catch up. So every time we. had some time off I'm interviewing. Marvin. I'm interviewing you name it. Anybody. Tell me what you did to get to.

where you're going. Then I found out. nobody went to school to know what they. know. Holy crap. Now we're on to. something really serious. >> Cuz then I had some aha moments. And so. if I can't play it, I can hum it. But. most of the time I could just play it. Okay, I can play this. And as you learn, you grow quickly. You have to learn. quickly now because we just signed the. contract and said we're now on Mottown. Records. I got to do a fast track here. But it happened in real time. At any.

moment, they could have called up and. said, "We're going to cut the group down. to the most significant people in the. group. Rich, you're out.". >> Oh. Oh, [ __ ]. >> So, I had to make sure. Let me let me. make sure I get this. I'm working harder. than anybody have you ever seen before. in your life. And so, that's how it's a. whole life of insecurity. It wasn't secure. And then you get your. first song and you go, "Oh, okay. Okay,

that was lucky. Oh, okay." Then the guy. said, "Hey, kid. You got any more of. those songs?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I got. another one." You go home and look at. the guy in the mirror and go, "You got. any more songs?" Cuz I'm talking to. myself. And that's when you realize, okay, out of fear, I got to come up with. another song. So, everyone keeps. thinking this this confident guy walking. in, I got another song for you. I got to tell you how many times I. walked on stage, Joe, and had a panic.

attack right in the middle of the show. I'm having a massive panic attack. >> Really? >> Because I'm supposed to look like I got. this. >> Wow. >> When actually. I don't. >> But eventually you did. Well, that's. what happened to Barbara Stryson and. that's what happened to I mean once you. realize as you start interviewing people. the people who are scared to death on. stage and then they realize as time went.

on they they got used to it. But I. realized the thing that scares you to. death is the thing you have to keep. going forward on. That's my dad's line again. >> Yeah. >> What's the what's the what's the. similarity between a hero and a coward? One step forward. >> Yeah. >> And one step back. No matter how much it scares me, step forward. >> Yeah. >> And so each time I was not going to say. I'm not going on stage. I go on stage.

and I'm going to sweat for two hours. and try to fake my ass off. And now it's. like second nature now. But at the time, give me a break. That's so important for. young people to hear that a guy like you. would panic. Are you kidding me? Oh my. god, man. Have you ever met the. president before in life? No. Have you. ever been on stage in front of a 100,000. people? No. Have you ever been in a club. with four people in the room looking at.

you going, "What you going to do?" No. I mean, you I mean, listen, I mean, it's. that's why when I see these kids on. American Idol, I don't know how they do. that. I came in with five other guys. going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, >> right." They're singing ac cappella. >> Yeah. >> To me and Carrie and Luke. Are you kid? And excuse me. And 20 million people. watching and a billion 200 million uh. live impressions.

Get the freak out of here. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm just saying for me to be this. authority, if you will, I can relate to. every one of their heartbeats on that. stage. I know what they're fearing. That's why when I get around artists, you don't try to blow them away with. your importance. First of all, do you. need a hug first? What do you need? Let me talk to you for. a minute because you need Let me talk. you down for because you're you're.

expecting too much out of us. >> You follow me? >> Yes. >> Cuz we're all we're all students of. Scared to Death. >> Yeah. If you're not, you're you're in. the wrong business. >> That's exactly. And by the way, the the. book is not about how I won. It's how I. got not to the peaks, how I survived the. valleys. >> The valleys of insecurity is it, man. How do you get up and go, uh, you're. going to host the American Music Awards?

Dick wants you to do that. Uh, okay. Was that a big scary one for you? Because you brought that up a couple. times. That one bothered you a lot. >> Everything scared me. Yeah, I I know you're not expecting this. interview, but I'm pleased. >> Everything. scared me. You have to understand. >> Um Lionel, we're going to do a. instrumental for a movie. It's called uh.

In This Love. Um I'm only doing Kenny's album. I'm. only doing the Commodore's album, but. because it's Franco Zepharelli and John. Peters and everybody, I'm thinking, okay, I I can do an instrumental. Right. Then halfway through the thing, they. said, well, we're going to shoot a scene. where we just need the lady to sing a. first verse to the person in in the. scene. Can you write a first verse? Uh, yeah. Yeah. My love, there's only you in. my life. The only thing that's right, my.

first love, your every breath that I. take, every step I make. Thank you. Okay, got it. Is that it? Yeah. Right. No, Lionel, we've decided now to make. this a duet and we're going to get Diana. Ross to sing uh the the ladies part. Who. do you recommend to sing the guy's part? Are you out of your mind? It's me. What. are you talking about? >> I I I'm not going to recommend somebody. else. >> Were they beating around the bush?

>> I think they were. I think they I think. I think they were backing me and because. I told them I don't have time, >> right? >> So, I they they baited me by saying, you. know, uh it's going to be an. instrumental. But by the time I got. there, I'm thinking, okay, now here's. the problem. Diane is in New York. I'm. in LA. I'm doing two albums, Commodores. and Kenny Rogers. I'm not going to New. York and she can't come to LA. Where are. we going to meet? Tahoe.

Tahoe. We go to Tahoe. But it wasn't. what even to Reno. She's playing Reno. >> So at the end of my Commodore night, 10. to 6, Kenny Rogers 6 to 10, Lionel. Richie, and then 10 to 4 in the morning, I got to get on a plane, fly to Tahoe, and put Diana Ross on Endless Love. >> Wow. Now, what you don't know when. you're that part of your life that you.

could die from having creativity, too much creating, but at the same time, I never written a. duet ever. So, my first duet in life was. with Diana Ross. Do you think I was. nervous? Do you think I was nervous? Do. you think I was nervous? I mean, I just kept praying, God, for. God's sakes, don't let me pass out in. front of Miss Ross.

>> Oh my God. >> So, what I'm just saying to you, the the. title of the book could be Scared to. Death. I got titles, man. You know? >> Yeah. >> Because it's it's not. it's it's the first time of everything. I've never done this before. And so just. imagine being put into a situation. throughout my entire career. >> Wow. >> Where um you know, step forward, Lionel. Step forward. Step forward. Step.

forward. Step forward. Can you all Can. you all hear my heart beating? No. Okay. Good. Good. Step forward. Step forward. That's what it's been. Wow. Like I said, that's so important for. young people to hear because I think. they see someone with such a career and. so much success, they go, "Well, that. guy's just probably crazy confident and. always has been and just talented, kissed by God.". >> No, no, no. >> I I I tell people every day. >> what this book did for me, I discovered. Lionel Richie.

>> I'm the Italian race car driver. >> Yeah. >> I never looked behind me. I never paid. attention. And then all of a sudden this. book made me turn around and look behind. me. >> It's interesting because if you want to. get things done in life, you kind of. have to be the Italian race car driver. But if you want to get this thing done. in life, write a book about your life. >> That requires that introspective. thinking. Yeah. And that recollection. and that recognition of like, oh my god, like what did I go through?

>> I mean, what what was that? I mean, you. think about it, uh, you know, let's I. mean, you think, yes, I got the hit. record at the same time my mother was. dying. >> Now, those two don't go together, >> right? >> You follow me? >> Yeah. >> Uh, I'm in I'm in the world tour of my. life. It's the Dancing on the Ceiling. Tour. It's I'm going to establish me. around the world. It's the all night. long Dancing on the Ceiling Tour. My.

father's dying. >> Oh god. >> You follow what I'm saying? I mean, so. it's. okay. So now, how's dad doing? Oh, well, he's he's he's doing okay. How's mom. doing? Okay, mom. Mom. Okay. Okay. Should I come home? Lo, well, she's. okay. She's But I mean, she's okay, but. I can cancel the tour and come home. Okay. But I mean, but but how's she. doing? When my sister's there, she Mom's. doing fine. She's doing great. But you.

don't realize she's in the decline, but. you keep trying to balance this. What do. I do? >> Yeah. >> You know, and and so it's it's all. happening while it's happening. And so. it's, you know, how do you kind of. compartmentalize. the show, the writing, and real life family? You know, is it the is it the reunion? We're having the reunion. Okay.

>> You know, it's the class reunion. It's. the family reunion. It's Have you ever. been to the family reunion? No. Didn't. make the family reunion. Why? Cuz when. you're in the Commodores, when you really have your shows, it's. Christmas, New Year's, all the holidays, all summer. So if you happen to have. any kind of reunion during those times, you're not going to make it. >> So it's the sacrifices. How many. barnfires did I make during college?

None. Pep rallies? No. Basketball. tournaments? None. But I'm the commodors. We're the. commodors. You follow me? >> Yeah. >> So I always tell people what comes with. success. are the sacrifices. And even after you make the sacrifices, it's not guaranteed that you're going to. win. >> And at your highest of highs, like the. all night long days, you're dealing with. your father dying. >> Exactly.

>> So people would just see all they're. seeing is you and thousands of people. screaming and cheering when you're on. stage all over the world, sold out. shows, >> but you're dealing with your father. dying. >> Yeah. You're you're you're dealing with. moments. You're trying to pretend like you're not. seeing it. You know, there's a moment. when you go home and your parents age. right in front of you. >> You never noticed it before. He wasn't dying yet, but you could see. the decline.

until dancing on the ceiling. You see a. little bit more of the decline. >> You follow what I'm saying? And then. finally you realize, holy [ __ ] this is. not going to be good at all. But but you. keep pretending like it's not happening, if you know what I mean. You kind of put. that in that little compartment. He's getting older, but he's he's okay. He's okay. He's okay. He's okay. The. answer is no, he's not. >> And then from that, you think that. everything else in your life is okay. Is.

the marriage okay? No, he's not okay. Nothing's okay. Why? Because all. priorities are going towards this new. thing you've never experienced before. called freaking hit record. Going solo. I'm leaving the Commodores. I'm leaving the Commodores. These are the only five guys I've ever. trusted in my life. So everyone keeps. thinking, "Yeah, you went solo." No, no, no, guys. What was that word that comes. with that? Scared. Fear.

>> Yeah. So, everyone keeps thinking, "And. then I decided to go solo." Oh, [ __ ]. The [ __ ] are you? Who Who are you. talking to? Leaving the Commodores, too, is crazy. >> Come on, man. >> Crazy. The Commodores is a once in a. lifetime opportunity. And for you to. say, "I'm going to do it on my own.". >> No. No. That's not the way it was. You're kidding. I'm not I'm not leaving.

you guys. What are you talking about? >> Leaving the Commodores is crazy. >> I mean, for. >> you almost can't. >> You You can't do it. But what was. happening behind the scenes, that's the. story. >> What was happening behind the scenes was. And I understood. I understood, but. still I didn't want to accept it. It's. the guys. >> Yeah. >> Okay. The article read, um, "And then Lionel Richie sat down to the.

piano and started playing his classic. hits.". Review. What's a guy like the Commodore? What's a guy like Lionel Richie doing in. a funk band like the Commodores? Joe, try to go back to rehearsal after. that review. >> Oh god, >> you got it. >> Yeah. >> Or now we've done Endless Love. Now. we've done Lady with Kenny Rogers. Tell. us, Lionel, how you started the group. >> Oh no. >> I I didn't start the group.

>> Oh no. >> And now you walk into a group interview. and they knock Clyde over and they knock. uh Whack over the the play Tommy and. Lionel. Tell us about the band. >> Oh no. >> So what I tried to do was come later. >> But by coming later, oh you think you're. big enough now where you don't have to. be in the group? But if I don't. >> if I'm on time, >> they'll disrespect you, >> right? >> I got the feeling. I got their angst. >> Yeah.

>> You follow me? >> And this is a different time in the. world. See, today you could elevate. those folks through social media and. bring them up with you. >> Of course. Of course. >> That's the beauty of today. >> Of course. >> If you're working with talented people. and they're not getting shine, you go, "Hey, this is this guy's great. Everybody go see him.". >> Check it out. And then all of a sudden, boom. And now they get the love and the. recognition. But back then everybody was. on their own. It was a dog eat dog world. and it was controlled by gangsters. >> Arrest my case. The answer was I. realized one very important thing.

>> Throw the word degree. out of your vocabulary. >> The music business. A degree. A degree. in music. A degree in business. A degree. in what? No. No. No man. This was street. degree, >> right? Street psychology. >> Yeah. What what did a guy tell me? He. said, um, I I'll tell you the the the. best course I ever took in life. And. this is a true story. He said, you know, you school boys are funny, man. He says,

you all learn how to account for the. money. He says, we count the money. >> And I said, okay, so what does that. mean? He says, somebody's got to teach. you how to steal. >> Oh, God. >> No, no, no, no. Best lesson I ever took. in my whole life because once you learn. how to steal the money, >> you know how to stop. >> you know how to stop people from. stealing. >> Yeah. There's so many stories of bad deals. I. mean, I was reading an excerpt from this.

book and I don't know if it's true. >> It's a guy that thinks that Hrix was. killed rather than he died. And uh he. thinks that what was going on was that. Hrix was leaving his management. >> and his management had him locked up in. some crazy contract. They were stealing. money from him and. >> and they thought that he'd be more. valuable dead since they owned the. records. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And that's this is this is like you. coming from the 70s in the professional.

business from the 70s on dealing with. that was the business back then. >> Yeah. >> I mean. >> Yeah. Look at Phil Spectre. The guy's in. jail now for shooting a woman in the. mouth in his house. >> These were. >> Yeah. >> gangsters. >> Uh yeah. I mean the answer is. there is a um one moment when I looked. into my mom and dad's face. and I said uh.

hey they they just stole $363,000. from me and my mother said you leave. those people alone and come home and I. go no no no no no mommy mom it only cost. me3 $362,000 to learn that lesson. It's. never going to happen again. And I was. so excited about it. She looked at me. and said, "My son's crazy.". >> That is a crazy response. >> But but the answer is. >> very logical. >> You can lose millions. You can lose. billions.

>> Sure. >> Okay. So, if it only took me 362,000, I got off light, man. You understand me? >> For sure. But it's and not only that, can you keep your can you keep your can. you keep your life? I mean, just think. about it, you know, when you go to the. box office, everybody had a gun. Now, here's the beautiful part about it, cuz. I knew that later, nobody's going to. shoot anybody. It's just if you How. naive were you? If you were naive and a. little school boy, you could get shot. and killed. But as you started learning.

who the gangsters are, that was just an intimidating factor. But you had to be once you knew them. >> Yeah. >> Then they go, "Come on, Lionel. Just. cover us a little bit." You know, but. >> that's even more disconcerting. They. become normal. >> They become normal. >> That's what gets weird. >> That's what gets weird. >> when you're around normalized gangsters. >> That's exactly right. And then you start. and then your mother starts meeting them. on their way to Miami. They would drive. and they stop by Tuskegee to see the. school boys. And here's a guy dead of.

homecoming season in a full head to toe. mink hat, mink coat, mink, pink el dorado. dorado. >> driving across the campus and you go to. your instructors. Yeah, this is my uh my. friend uh you know uh tall Paul. You I. got all kind of got names for him out. We had a Oh my god. We had we had names. You can't you can't make this up.

>> Yeah. >> You know, and how do you ex introduce. them to the president of the university? The answer is you don't. You don't do. it. You don't. >> You don't. >> God, what was it like navigating that. world? >> It was Joe one of the most exciting. things ever. Why? I never experienced. anything like this before, >> right? >> I mean, I I mean, listen, >> who does? >> I I listen. You mean Wait, wait. See, see we played gangster. They weren't playing gangster.

>> Right? >> You follow me? >> Right. >> So, we are with the gangsters, >> right? >> And it it just became so another world. where what the guy say in our world, Lionel, it's not how long you live, it's. how well you live while you're living. >> Now, that's a profound statement from. him. That's I don't want to know. anything about that. But you have to. listen, right? This they don't plan on.

living a long life, but they plan on. living well while they're here, >> right? >> So, it's nothing to say when you go back. to New York for the next summer. Whatever happened to so- and so, oh. yeah, he got shot in December. >> All normal normaliz that's that's. normal. He's leaving town or they're. leaving town, >> right? And so as time went on, it became. a shortterm. view of a very long-term.

problem. that has always been normalized because. a part of. legal. is illegal or desirabs and undesirabs. That's just a part of the city, >> right? >> And here's what you find out. The most. important thing the desirabs know the. undesirabs. >> Yeah. >> You go backstage and you go wait you two. know each other. >> what?

>> Right. >> You know but that's what happens in this. world of cities in this world of. culture. You know everybody has that. what's that line I used to use all the. time? Who are you really? >> Right. Right. >> And until it it is revealed later. Yeah. In the music business, we see it all. Backstage is all, >> front row is all, >> right? >> You follow me? >> So, you just have to understand it's a. it's probably one of the greatest. educations in the world cuz.

>> everybody backstage is who they are, >> right? >> Not who they say they are. >> Right. Right. That's got to be bizarre. seeing like captains of industry. mingling with gangsters, >> heads of enormous. >> Hi Phil. Hi Bill. Hi John. Hi David. And. by the way, it's okay. But remember now, >> we're a street business, >> right? >> We're a street business. And is it a. street business because. gangsters always controlled a certain. percentage of what's going on in the.

streets and cities? or is it a street. business because you don't really need. an education to do it. You do it on. instinct and everyone needs it because. it's really like what you're what you. produce is like a drug. You know, I can. listen to one of your own songs and it's. it just puts me in a state of mind like. ah. >> bingo, >> man. It does something to you. physically. So, they're you know, they're in the drug business, too. >> But bingo. >> They're in the cash business. They're in. the live entertainment and nightclub.

business. Let's talk Vegas, >> right? Founded. >> fight was a Harvard grad the founder of. of of Vegas? >> No. Okay. So, what I'm saying to you, the problem that happened with all of. these businesses we now have. They. legitimized it. >> They messed the whole thing up, >> right? >> Did the movie business start out with. wonderful PhD guys from. >> No. >> No. The It started from. >> the street. Yeah. You follow me?

>> And so what we are trying to do now is. we've tried to legitimize all of this. stuff pasturize. We want to do the whole. thing. The answer is no. No, man. We. messed the whole thing up. >> Yeah. >> Because what it was is the fascination. of, "Hey, Lionel, can I put my name on. your album?". >> Right. >> Why? I got to move some stuff around. But the answer is, I couldn't do it. because I don't want to get in trouble. from the, you know, you're kind of. trying to dodge these guys. But the. point is, it's real. So, I care what I. won't I won't put a business like that.

together. What I'll do is start the. business. Hey, what a great way to do that. But. the only thing wrong with that is as. time goes on, someone asks a very. difficult question. I like to see the. books. >> That's a tough one. >> Go deal with that one. >> Yeah. >> So, you follow where we're coming from. So I for us for me as as they used to. call us in Harlem, the school boys, you. know, for the school boys, this was.

fantasy land, right? >> Are you kidding me? I mean, we didn't. think we're going to die. This was like. the best course we ever took in the. world from the originals. >> Right. Right. >> This is not some hearsay. And they. adopted us as the school boys. >> That's so wild. That must have been just an insane. experience as a young man going. You. have no idea. You have Joe, >> you have no. >> I can't even imagine. >> idea. And then you know I mean the days.

of. the days of Smalls Paradise. I mean this. is the club of clubs in Harlem. The days. of uh um. Studio 54. Michael Jackson's 21st birthday. Give me. a break. I mean, and back then, what I. loved about private clubs was the reason. it was private is because if you can't.

keep a secret, if you weren't in the. building, you can't find out what's. happening in the building. Now, everybody's got a phone, >> right? >> And everybody can't wait to take a. picture or rat on somebody. So you can't. have a private club in the book because. >> everybody's going to tell what they saw. inside. >> Exactly. >> But back then once they let you in those. doors. >> Yeah. >> First of all, it was a privilege that. they thought that much about you to let. you in. And then once you got in, it was.

you were in the you were in the club, man. Wow. God, it must been so exciting. and to be surrounded by so many. extraordinary people at that time. What. was it like watching Michael Jackson. explode? >> You know, I talk about him and I talk. about Elvis a lot in that if you look at. as a a study of fame that there's a. certain level of fame that you achieve. that's completely and wholly.

unmanageable, right? >> And it's like the Elvis level and I. think he was like the first guy to. really reach that level. And then it was. Michael Jackson who went to a completely. different place. Michael Jackson, he's. even surpassed that which seems more. insane. And look at that photograph. >> That's uh that's at Studio 54 on. Michael's 21st birthday. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> And the mustache was thicker than ever, man. I just. >> It dripped down. >> You all know I had the little hook over. on the side. Come on, man.

You know, cuz he he never had a a normal. moment. >> No, >> he was famous when he was a little boy. I remember when when AB what was was. what show did ABC. what would they broadcast? >> That was uh was it Ed Sullivan? Was that. then they first when they first hit? >> Yes. >> It was either Ed Sullivan or Dick Clark. I think it was Ed Sullivan when they. blew up. Blew up. But I remember him. singing ABC's when he was just a boy and.

I was like, "My god, he is so talented.". Like like exploding in talent, exploding. in charisma like I'd never seen before. You'd seen so many artists and so many. people that were maybe maybe it was. because of the youth, too. It's like. he's so free. He was so free. >> Yeah. the. >> his so so much charisma and talent. It. was just insane. Like look at this. Give.

me some of this. >> I mean I mean come on. Listen. >> You can't play any of that. >> No. No. But but but but watch him jump. out front. If he does if when you see. the scene where he comes out front. Oh, this guy didn't know the clip. But if he. ever spins around one time and you'll. see something that looks so simple to. do, he got that from Jackie Wilson. >> I said, "Where did you get that from?". He said, "Lonel, that's Jackie Wilson. That's But if you see him spin and come.

back to dead center. now, this is when he was just getting. his wings to flap.". >> Wow. This is How old is he here? >> Uh, he's got to be 12. >> Wow. 12, 11, 12. And and of course at. this time it was just ridiculous because. he knew what he was doing. >> He knew exactly I mean this is the. oldest soul you've ever met in your. life. >> Really? >> I I I couldn't tell you. And then they.

walk off stage and turn into 12 year. olds. This kid turned into itching. powder in your afro or. see how you stand out front and see how. he points to you now. I know what he's saying right now. >> Wow. >> Right. Okay. >> God beat.

>> crazy. He was so crazy. >> And if you see him with that, I mean, I I'll be honest with you. I. mean, we forgot sometimes. that that this is going to happen cuz. when you're backstage or in the hotel. room, that's a kid, >> right? >> That's a kid. Um then as time went on, things happened where you could see it. getting weird. For example, um.

I'd go down the hall and I'd say, "Um, where's Mike?" And they said, "He's in. the room." Okay. And meanwhile, what. became normal was, "Watch out. Be. careful. The girls are coming. Watch. out. Be careful. Stay in the room. The. girls are coming." Now, if you. understand the Commodores, Jermaine was. a bass player. He hooked up with the. bass player of the Commodores, Ronald. the drummer, Clyde, follow me. The lead. singer, me. So, Michael and I bonded at.

12:13 because the lead singer. So, I. went down to check him out and I say, "Where's Michael?" "He's in the room." I. go in the room. "Hey, Mike, where are. you?" Okay, where is he? He's hiding in. the bathroom. The girls are out there. I. said, "Girls, what do you mean? There's. no girls out there. They sealed off the. floor. Come go with me." Now, they got. mad at me because I'd walk out in the. hall and go, "Come go with me. I said, "You seen the girls out there?". "Oh, I thought they were I thought they. were in the whole Lionel." Whoa.

>> Okay. So, in other words, watch out. Be. careful. But they're protecting the. Golden Goose, ladies and gentlemen. Do. you follow me? But the Golden Goose. needs play period time. He needs. playtime, >> right? He's still a kid. >> He's a kid. And so, >> you're freaking him out. >> Germaine Tito, these they listen, they. go on dates, guys. They hang. They You. know, Michael can't hang downstairs. >> Wow. Right. And so as time went on, you. could see the slow shutdown. of trying to protect an incredibly.

talented person, but at the same time, he got special treatment. >> And so what I tried to do every chance I. could was, "Hey man, come to get you in. the car. Come over here. Let's get it. together." You know, >> hang hang. Yeah. you know, and and so, you know, we went through that period of. time where we don't stay together long. cuz once we the Commodores took off, we. didn't have that everyday time anymore, right? >> You follow me? But every once in a. while, we get together and and you know,

there's a little rumor that's out right. now that I I want to clean up right. quick. They said in Lionel's book, Lionel called my uh Michael smelly. Didn't like the way he smelled. I said, "No, that's not what I So, let me clean. this up." Okay. So, imagine sending your. clothes out anywhere and you get half of. your clothes back. The other half of. your clothes are souvenirs. >> You follow me? So, what he would do is. if he had a pair of jeans, right, he'd.

wear the jeans until they tried to run. away from him. Do. >> you understand? >> People were stealing his clothes. >> They stealing his clothes, right? Oh my. god. or or or he'd he'd he'd walk in the. house some days. and I'm looking down at his feet and I. go, "Michael, your shoes are flopping on your feet. The the two sizes too large for you." I. know, Lionel. The guy we were in. someplace, he gave me a pair of shoes. and I told him, "Thank you very much." I. said, "But Michael, you could have.

gotten the shoes in the right size." I. know, but I didn't want to embarrass. him. So, he's walking around with two. sizes too large. You understand me? So. he'll come by the house. We wore the. same size right in certain by the time. he became that teenager. So I said, "Go. in the closet, uh, get a pair of jeans.". So literally, he changed clothes. And by. the way, he left the clothes on the. floor in the room and walked away from. them. In other words, he he'd wear them. until he got into the pair. And so we.

call him, Quincy called him, "Okay, here. comes Smelly." And so his nickname was. for in for the insiders was Smelly. Follow me. So when I said it in the. book, everybody goes, "Oh my god, Lionel. called Michael Jackson Smelly." And I. go, "No, that's not it. That's that's. his name. That was his. I revealed that.". >> That's hilarious. But it's so hilarious. that people were just stealing his. clothes. >> Oh man, please. I mean, >> poor guy. The kid when he was 12, 13,

14, send underwear out, it doesn't come. back. T-shirt out, no t-shirt back. Socks out, no socks back. So, it's what. he ba basically had was a new pair of. underwear. Every time he put a pair of. underwear on, it was new. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Because it's just not going to. happen. It's coming back. >> How many Michael Jackson's underwear is. out there on eBay or something? >> Can I tell you if they if they stole it. in the 70s? Can That's an admission. I. stole it. That's number one. But by the.

way, very valuable. >> Probably. >> very valuable. >> Probably crazy valuable. >> And you know what? I would love to put. that out there. Say no prosecution. needed, right? >> It was not going to happen. Could you. reveal yourself? So cuz that's got to be. I would have that frame right away. >> It's just so bananas that that was just. ubiquitous. They would just steal his. clothes. But it just makes sense because. what what I was saying is about the. Elvis thing applies to him plus is that. there there's no road map for that. There's no road mapap for navigating.

that level of fame, you know, and. >> even you as as an adult, as a grown man, >> you know, you're when your peak of fame had to. have been. >> so surreal. >> that it's it's hard to not lose who you. are. Most people lose who they are. If. you say, "Oh, she went crazy." [ __ ]. you would go crazy, too. You know what. the [ __ ] you're talking about? You've. never been a superstar in front of the. whole world or judging everything you.

do. >> No. No. And then and then that thing. came along called the phone. At least. >> At least if they did see you, >> they caught you in that place. >> Yeah. >> But they only saw you, >> but now they're looking at you. everywhere, right? >> So the press is everybody. >> Just imagine that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, but I mean in my case, I got. used to it. I I I got to admit I mean of. course you think something happened. >> Oh, did I do it? Did I Did I.

>> Oh, no worries. Somebody was probably. messing with it before you. >> I I pop out all the time. >> I live with that sound all the time. No, but what happens with me was we went. from you could actually be. you could actually sneak. I like that. word. >> Sneak around. Sneak means you can look. out. Do you see anybody you know? If you. don't see anybody, you know, you can. sneak. And then something happens one. day. You walk in a room,

you you came in through the back door, you sit at a table in the back door, the band starts playing three times. A. lady. >> Oh my god. >> And then everybody turns around and. says, "Hi, Lionel.". >> Oh no. >> Okay. Okay. All right. And you thought. you were just sneaking your ass off. You. ain't sneaking nothing. You try to sneak. around and get some dinner. >> That ain't not happening. And then the. next thing that happens, which is. >> you want to have a nice anniversary. dinner,

right? Anniversary dinner is the best. dinner ever. Romantic place. Mhm. And. three ladies walk over to take him say, "Hi, Lionel. How are you? We want to. tell you we love you and we want to tell. you about Great. That's great." And then. your wife says, "Who are those ladies?". I don't know. I've never met him before. I know, but they seem so familiar. >> What? Okay. Wait. This is not good because now. the romantic session just turned into.

But now I've never experienced this. before. Remember now this is new. This. is not. >> I I know now not to go to the romantic. place. You go someplace where you can. have a have a great time. But. >> the point was back then this is first. time happening, >> right? >> And you're trying to be like all your. other friends. You take your wife out or. you take your girlfriend out or you go. to dinner and you have a No, no, no, man. It becomes now everybody's watching. you and they can't wait to come over and. say, "Can I have an autograph?". >> Right. >> And now they come up and say, "Can we. have a picture?".

>> Right. >> And so it becomes This is. >> very weird. >> This is very weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You have to plan where you go. >> Plan where you go. And more importantly, be fully dressed before you leave. >> Don't so do something stupid. Right. But. I mean it. I don't I don't want I'm I love it. I. I'm. >> No, it's not a complaint. It's just. detailing a unique aspect of your life. being a famous person. >> I tell people all the time and this is. the truth.

I hope you like people. I hope you like people cuz if you don't, you're not going to like fame, >> right? Okay. They keep thinking they're. going to be famous and rich and No, no, no. Do you like people? >> Right. cuz they're going to be in your. face and in your business with an. opinion. all the time. >> Yeah. Now, you want to go to a recital. with your kid and it's your kid's piano. recital. I hope you like being famous.

cuz while your kid is playing the. recital, the parents are going to be. asking you for your autograph. >> Not the kids, the parents. >> Yeah. I made the mistake and decided. I'll go to SeaWorld with my kid and I'll. go by myself on the parents bus. You. know who protected me on the whole trip? The kids. My kid Miles said, "Okay, we. got to protect my dad cuz the parents. are coming." And everybody at SeaWorld. showed up and there's Lionel Richie at.

SeaWorld with his kid. So I had four. little kids surround me and go, I said, "Guys, I'm with them. We're with the. school. But I mean, it becomes, holy. crap, what the hell's going on? >> It's annoying for them, too. >> Of course it is. Yeah. >> But you can't have that moment, >> right, >> with your kids. And And it's And it's a. big it's a big deal because at that. time, >> ABC, NBC, CBS, and a new station just. came out called CNN. Other than that, to.

see you to have a sighting, right, >> was like. >> different. >> Come on, man. >> Yeah. No one know I I I couldn't imagine. what it was like being famous when. there's only four channels in the radio. >> The Olympics, 2.5. 2.6. billion people watching. live live. >> Wow. So I went from Lionel Richie to.

Lionel Richie all night long. The end of. my name became all night long. L Richie. all night long. Hey L Richie all night. long. >> Every country in the world I became Lana. Richie all night long. >> Wow. What was that like performing? >> There it is. >> In front of that many humans. What was. that feeling like? Was it different than. a regular performance? Joe, it it it. felt like a regular performance, but I.

had never in my life had. the world watching. So, I rehearsed it. We did it not. realizing. it was the world, literally the world. watching. And if go back and look at. that little podium, what was supposed to. happen at the beginning of this was. Ronald Reagan was supposed to come out. and greet had his speech. I know I speak.

on behalf of everyone in America and the. entire world how proud we are of these. fine athletes. That was his speech, right? Because that night there were. death threats. They had, you know, they. decided it's too risky to have him on. the field. Lionel, would you give the. speech on behalf of all of America and. the entire world? Stop me where I am. >> Oh my god. So before I started singing,

I had to make my speech. I know how proud we are. here in America and around the world of. these fine athletes. And now we're going to sing all night. long. But I had to give this thing. >> Wow. >> And I told him, I said, "Well, that was. that was the proud moment after I came. off stage before I went on stage was, well, if. Mr. Reagan's worried about his life,

what what about mine? What's gonna. happen here?" You know, but it was so. overwhelmingly. that you talk about energy and. adrenaline and. you can't beat 2.6 billion people live. and it you think Super Bowl was. something special. I'll tell you what. this was. Nobody there was not another. channel covering anything. The whole. world was watching this. That's hard for.

people to imagine in this day of. content. >> Exactly. Right. >> That that will never happen again unless. it's the aliens are landing Monday at 8. a.m. >> Exactly. Correct. >> That that's the one where the aliens. landed. >> Oh, that fake fake. >> Right. Right. And by the way, that's. what happened. That was the opening. But. what you don't see there, that's that. was the That's very good, man. I hadn't. seen this clip. Uh what was happening. with that was just before it started. they sealed off the airspace.

and I I remember looking out there were. four helicopters facing out. and the problem was you couldn't hear. them Joe and I kept thinking I'm looking. at helicopters and they said I said. what's that right there and they said. they sealed off the airspace. >> Whoa. Nothing's coming in to this place. 1 2 3 4. >> Wait a minute. You couldn't hear the. helicopters that were holding up the. flying saucers?

>> I couldn't hear a thing. >> How's that possible? >> I don't know. >> That's what's scary. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Military 51 ship. >> You understand what I'm saying? And the. answer to me was okay. >> See, I mean the alien guy. You. understand me at this point? >> This is 1984. >> Yeah. And Howard K. Smith. Remember the. sports announcer? I think was it was it. Howard K. Smith? Heard how? No, Howard. He was with Howard Kith. How? No, he was. with uh Wide World of Sports.

>> Okay. >> And he kept saying, "This is going to be. an amazing night for you." And I said, "Yeah, okay." Not knowing what this was. going to be. And there was a kid that. was backstage and he said, "Oh my god, this is going to be the biggest night. ever." You know who that kid was? Cuba. Gooding Jr. >> Wow. >> He was one of the dancers. >> Wow. >> And from that moment on,

I kept thinking, "What's going to. happen?" I said, "Here's what I want you. to do. They're not looking at me. Your parents. are looking for you. So, get a signal. Give them something where you wave your. hand so they'll know that that's you.". But the truth of that was that was one. of those interesting moments in time. where the world was watching and it was. no other way to happen. It I woke up the. next morning, drove down the street, I. could be five cars back from the traffic.

light and somebody passed and go, "Hey, Lionel Richie all night long. L Richie. all night long. Hey, it's Lionel Richie. all night long." Oh god, what just. happened? >> Did you get your windows tinted? >> I got everything tinted, babe. I I was. wearing tents. What you talking about? >> That might be the biggest audience. anyone has ever performed for ever. If. you think about it, >> without dying, of course. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's I don't know what that was, but it freaked me out because.

I went from slightly invisible. to fully visible. anywhere. My friend got married. I kept saying to. him, "You don't want me at your. wedding." He said, "No, no, no. You have. to come to the wedding." I said, "You. don't want me at your wedding." Here's. what happened. I decided to go. Here's there he is walking down the. aisle. There he is saying I do. And. there he is walking out with his lovely.

bride. Every other picture after that is. his mother-in-law with me, his family. with me. He's no longer in the wedding, >> right? >> Every picture was me in his wedding. book. And I said, "You don't want me at. your funeral. Nobody's going to ever know you left. It's not going to happen. >> What was that like for you like. psychologically that that giant shift? Was that hard to manage? >> Pain in the ass.

>> Yeah. >> For the first couple of 10 years, you know, you got to get used to this. I. mean, you know, and and and also you. have to understand it becomes an. annoyance to your friends. >> Hey, Lionel, let's go down to the bar. and get a drink. >> Very simple. That's a You've been doing. that for their whole life, >> right? >> No. Uh you go down to the bar, the bar. turns around. >> Yeah. >> No. So now your friends become security. officers, >> right? >> You follow me? Okay. This is not cool, >> right? >> You know, and so.

yeah, it becomes a little bit of a. hassle. So if you want to have your. friends, you either have to bring them. up to your hotel thing or you bring them. over to the house, >> right? >> There's no hanging out, >> right? >> You know, it's not going to happen that. way. And again, it's. you get used to it over time. Uh, >> did it [ __ ] with you psychologically? >> Hell yeah. Are you kidding me, man? I. mean, >> because a person relies on the. perspective that they get from. interacting with people. If the majority. of your interactions are bizarre,

>> and then finally one day you say, "Okay, you walk into the room, prepare to talk to the room, >> right? Just accept that this is what it. is.". >> Muhammad Ali said it correctly. We had. lunch one afternoon in New York and um. it's time for it to be over. And as we. were having lunch, there are people. coming up to the glass looking in. Oh, there's Muhammad. There's there's. Muhammad. There's Lionel. There's. Muhammad. There's Lion. Muhammad. Okay,

it's time for us to go. >> And my security had me and I'm ready to. go. I said, "Where's your security?" "Uh. uh. Muhammad." He said, "Well, I don't need. any security." I said, "What do you mean. you don't need security?" They said, "There's tons of people out there." He. said, "No, no, no, no, no. They'll take. care of me.". >> And he walks out the door. And. everybody's going, "Get back. Get back. Get back. It's Muhammad." In other. words, you you. neutralize the room. You can either make. it a frenzy.

>> Yeah. >> Or you can That's what Michael uh God. bless him. He couldn't get that in his. head, but he couldn't. Even if he tried. to do that, his whole persona was the. frenzy. >> Yes. He has to have the frenzy otherwise. that's not Michael, >> right? >> You know, so I I just kind of got to the. point where you go into that zen mode. and how do I get across the airport? >> It's only one way. You got to walk. across the difference in you and Michael. though was like you had a normal life. for a long time and then became an. artist and then I knew how to navigate.

You got a slow drip in the initial days. >> He had the explosion. >> The explosion that he got was like like. I said unlike anything anybody had ever. seen before. I don't I can't imagine how. he could diffuse a crowd. Like it's not. even possible. They would swarm him. >> Never was going to happen. >> No. Never. >> The thing about Muhammad Ali too, he was. like one of the rare people that was. loved by almost all humans. Absolutely. >> Especially after everyone realized he. was right about the Vietnam War. And. then he returns three years later and.

then, you know, he makes his way to the. title again and then the He was so. loved. He was so loved and a beautiful. person. I mean, what I. And again, trauma. I mean, when you see him out in. public, he was Mr. Chopz, but he was. carrying a lot. He was carrying his. belief. He was carrying his. his growth, losing the family, gaining.

another family, still being the icon. I. mean, think about that. You know, is he. going to win? Is he going to lose? With. me, I just got to sing all night long. again. >> But him, he's got to win again. >> And he knows he's starting to get brain. damage. >> There we go. There we go. >> He knows it. >> There's no ifs or buts about it. By the. time he gets past Frasier in the first. fight and then. >> Foreman, just the Foreman fight alone, Ernie Shavers, >> every every hit, >> every hit, >> every hit. >> And then later in his career, it gets.

sad. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just like there's very. few people that transcend whatever sport. they are and become like one of the key. features of culture. >> Yeah, he was magical. Magical. But. >> for me, he was the hero. >> Yeah. >> Because this is a guy. who found his freedom. When you can walk out and go, I'm going. to speak my truth and I don't care. Now. this is back in the days when Hoover was.

Hoover and the you know the. investigations where the investigations. that's heavy man I mean this is not this. is life and death situations and and for. him to accept his role as the educator. and also the the beacon of hope you know. when I got that in in my book when that. when that man came up to me and said you. must survive because you're our beacon. of hope. >> wow I I there's a moment in time when.

you realize there is a responsibility. here. and whether you wanted to be the teacher. or not there folks looking at you. besides the folks in Tuskegee. >> Yeah. And you've got something to share. and that something is very valuable. When someone can hear wise words from. someone they love and respect it it. it'll shift your perspective in life. >> and that that's such a gift that you. could give people. But it doesn't come I. I keep trying to tell Bill every day. It. doesn't come with the word flawless.

>> Of course, >> it comes with flaws. How did you. >> How did you learn that? >> You put your foot in the [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> I mean, you understand. How do you know. that? >> And and the only way to know it, the. only way to understand it, >> you know what you don't want to do is. have someone describe to you life. >> because they read it, >> right? I want to know about life that. you lived it. Now that's the person I'm. taking my advice from. >> Oh, 100%. Yeah. Like someone teaching.

you music that's never written a song. Like that's crazy. Unless they're Rick. Rubin. >> Lester Rick Rubin. And by the way, by. the way, by the way, you said that's a. strange brother, boy. I mean, I got. chills when you called his name. No, man. I can hear. >> He's the real deal. That's the real. deal. >> So love him. >> He's the real deal. That's a real deal. That's a real That's a real That's a. real experience. >> I went to Rick's house one day and I. said, "Oh man, this is going to be. great." He's out by the beach. We walked.

in and I said he said, "Sit right over. there.". >> Rick, it's only one. uh bean bag chair on the floor. That's. it. That's the whole living room. And I. said, "Where's the living room?". Or, "There's the terrace off of his. bedroom." Great. He has the doors the. dare the doors open off onto his. terrace. >> Yeah. >> They forgot to put the terrace out. there. So So open windows.

>> I said. there's no terrorists. >> I think that's what he wants. >> That's exactly what he wants. >> He wants things off. >> Ah man. >> And I love him. You're such a genius. >> He's I love him. I. >> I love him to death. >> Oh god. >> He sends me the wackiest text, too. >> Well, he ain't going to change. He goes. down rabbit holes. Woo. But he's. awesome. But there's people like him, right, that just have some special gift. of they just hear things.

>> But that's the point. >> Yeah. >> That's that's the point in in life. In. life, if you have a chance to be around. someone that's authentic unto themselves. at the same time they're receiving. >> It's not just songwriting, right? >> You know, there are people who are. receiving messages and you go, "Do me a. favor. just sit down and tell me the. story. >> Well, authors all talk about that. >> I I love I love I mean, for example, every time I go to Atlanta, Georgia, who's backstage,

greatest fan, greatest mentor ever, Andy. Young. >> Oh, >> okay. Did he see it? He saw it all. Did. he miss anything? Nothing. And he sits. back there. I've sometimes have been 15, 20 minutes late to go on stage. Why? Keep talking. Keep talking, Andy. >> You follow me? Yeah. >> He's just spewing. the message. And again, the answer becomes, >> hm,

>> how do you feel about where we are now? I'm optimistic. Wow, that's really. heavy. You know what I'm saying? And and. so I I just sit as a student, and that's. what happens in life. If you have a. chance, who comes backstage to my shows? Everybody. And they sit there and I have a chance. to find out, hm. Now, they say you're. this person and the answer is no, they're not. Everybody has a front, >> right,

>> and a back, >> especially a public narrative. >> You understand? >> If you don't know them personally, >> you don't know them personally. And so. with me, I have found the greatest parts. in the world of this whole story. >> is that they come as fans, everybody. And that's the part that really makes me. feel really great about traveling around. the world because it it it gives. remember now I know the world of the. world. A lot of people know Detroit or.

they know America, but they don't know. Europe or they don't know Asia or they. Joe, I'm 200 years old. I scratched on everything. But the point. is it's when I come home to write a. song, I don't write a song based on is. it going to be a song that can identify. to America only. I write a song that the. world will understand. >> because you've been to the world. >> I've been to the world. >> Yeah. >> So when I came home to write all night.

long, everybody looked at me like, "You. out of your freaking mind is freaking. calypso. Ain't no calypso music on the. radio." I said, "There's a thing called. world beat.". That's why every gangster, every. politician, every school teacher, everybody when you go on vacation, what. do you hear? It's called the world beat. >> So when I play the world beat on. anything, you automatically feel familiar,

>> right? >> But now try to play that in the middle. of funk. Try to play that. Yo, what is Lyle doing? You know, but the. point is, >> you know, it's I when you travel the. world and you come back home and you put. a song out, it's going to resonate to the world and. as time goes on, it will resonate to. America. >> But I I do from the world back in. certain cases. >> Oh yeah.

>> Just based on your life experiences. >> Yeah. >> No, that's amazing. Yeah. >> But it's like a lot of great artists. have done that like broke out and where. people are like, "What are you doing?". >> Exactly. Why are you doing something. that's different than something that's. been insanely successful? Why would you. mess with the formula? >> Lionel Rich's story. Lionel Richard. crossed over and can't get black. >> Oh, >> you got me. >> Okay. >> So, in other words, what? Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Three. times a lady. Yo, >> right. >> That's a W. Uh, little brother,

>> right? >> What? What? What? What? What you doing, man? You coping out? >> And the answer is, "No, no, no. I'm not. coping out." You know, but my answer was. very clear. If Mozart were black, would. he be Mozart? No. Cuz he wouldn't be funky enough. and you wouldn't have played him. Also, why would anybody challenge. authenticity? If someone has an. authentic idea, it's it's who they are. at this moment. This idea that you're.

supposed to stay in this box. >> Well, know what that's called now? >> What? >> An algorithm. >> Okay. Yeah. follow me. So, I basically. everyone keeps thinking, "Oh, man, it's. going to take over." No, it won't. >> And hopefully, if you're smart enough. >> and get out of the way of the of this. regurgitating over and over again the. same goddamn song, >> right? >> And go over here. It's got to be. somebody that goes, >> I want to say this, >> right? >> And and and no AI can tell you that.

that's going to what's that word? Touch. people. >> Yeah. You got to have something that. touches someone. >> Yes, >> it can rhyme all day long, >> right? >> But does it touch you? >> Right. >> That's coming from something else that's. going to be the new thing. And we've got. to allow the a place where the new thing. can come through. >> Yes. >> Cuz otherwise it will become it gets to. be a hum, >> right? >> And that's when you hear we only play 98. beats a minute. Well, you know what.

happens on the fifth song? You turn the. channel. First song, second song, third song, fourth song. Turn the channel. >> It's formula. >> because you want to hear something that. goes. >> That's the trick. >> Yeah. >> Change up the ear. >> Yeah. >> But someone said, "Let's just keep it. all the same." So now I have to ask the.

question, >> this is the business people, right? >> Yes. These are people who don't write. songs, >> right? Of course. >> I mean, that's like going to a concert. and the first song is. >> and the second song is and the third. song you go, uh, where are we going to. eat? >> Right. >> Okay. It's something's got to switch up. The lights have to change. Something has. to happen, right? >> Otherwise, it becomes monotonous. Thank. you. >> Yeah. Yeah. That struggle between the. creatives and the money people always. exists. I'm telling you, it used to be.

wonderful because the creative people. were the guys who owned. >> the labels, >> right? >> When did it switch? >> Uh when they started consolidating all. the In other words, they started buying. up. >> Mottown and then they bought up&M and. then they bought up Mercury and then. they bought up Polygram. Now you've got. this big giant. Okay, so it's Warner. Brothers, Sony, Universal. We got them all. And then the. independence and then the da da da. And. then it became one big.

>> just a machine. >> One big indigestion. >> Yeah. A bunch of people who just want to. make money and they don't make music. >> Yeah. And and then the one of the guy. says, "I know how to sell uh uh uh um I. know how to sell uh uh records lot. I I. sold 18 billion. hamburgers before I came here. What the. freak are you talking about? What the. [ __ ] businessman. I'm a businessman. Ly, >> you think it's complicated? >> Now, can you give me your album in the. third quarter? >> Oh god. >> And I'm going I I normally give my album.

when I finish it. >> Now, what are you talking about? >> Oh god. >> Third quarter means what? >> Oh no. >> Can we have it in the first quarter? If. we can have it in the first quarter, it'll be fine. >> Did you see Was this a slow thing or did. it just become overwhelming at a certain. point in time? Like when did they get. consolidate? The most irritating part of. it was you start an album and by the. time you finish the album, they sold the. company. >> Oh god. >> And the people who started the album. with you are no longer there.

>> So it's a new group of people that's. receiving the album that has no idea. that you've been working on the album in. the first place. >> Oh god. >> And then what label did they put that. on? Okay. They put Mottown over on. Mercury. And then they put Mottown. Mercury over on Polyador. Then they put. Now you're sitting there going, "Okay, guys. Who do I belong to? Who do I. belong to? >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. No. No. It went it went. it went so sideways that, you know, and.

and then as we slowly get further. further down the road of. of lack of uh of communication, half the time you go to another company, they didn't know what the hell have you. done, you know? They go, "Okay, now you. know I've got a hip-hop group that'll. love I got a writer that can write with. you, Lionel. >> Who Who you Who you talking to?" I mean, you know what I'm saying? I mean, you. know, we got a writer that can write. with you. I don't need a writer to write. with me. What are you talking about? I I.

don't I got my own. What? That's like. having somebody say, "I got a guy that. can help Stevie.". >> It's just imagine stage of your career. Someone coming along and telling you how. to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. because they're ANR people. from the last label. >> God. >> And so you get up there and you go, "And. by the way, whatever person they tell. you they want you to write with, that's. the single.". >> Oh god. >> So you go, "Okay, just hold on for a. minute. Everybody take a step back." The.

worst thing, the worst thing I ever. heard in life one time was that the guy. said, "I've got a surprise for Stevie.". Um, he turned in his album and I got. I've forgotten the artist's name. I. can't think of it. I got them to remix. his album. >> Oh, Jesus Christ. >> Joe, you never heard from Stevie again. for 10 years. >> Wow. >> I mean, come on. I First of all, if you. know Stevie, every. Okay, he knows where that is. >> Yeah. >> And you remixed it before you put out.

the original. >> Just imagine the gall to think you could. do it better. But then Stevie Wonder. >> But that's what I'm saying. When you. when you bring in non. creative people. >> who are doing cocaine, >> I I I didn't want to say that, but the. answer is a lot of it. A lot of blow. >> They're doing cocaine. So they have some. really unnecessary confidence, >> right? And again, you have to understand. something. They know.

They know because why do they know? Because they said so. And what I've. learned is there are two types of. artist. Creative artist and created. artist. >> Okay? And these people are specialized. in creating artist. But if you happen to. be talking to a creative artist, shut. the [ __ ] up. >> Yeah. Shut the [ __ ] up. >> Shut the [ __ ] up. Leave me alone. >> Shut the [ __ ] up. >> Yeah. Could you imagine a group of those.

people and Prince brings them head. and says, "This is my song." They were. like, "Are you out of your [ __ ]. mind?". >> And by the way, they did. >> They did. And you know what he said? "Fuck you.". >> But you know what I'm saying? Like. that's one of those songs where he's. like, >> "It's so great and so authentic and so. insane and nobody had heard anything. like that before.". >> That's That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. You or Madonna Madonna for the. Pepsi commercial. You know what he gave. what she gave him for the Pepsi. commercial? Like a prayer,

>> right? >> Right. black man on the cross with. Madonna. That's the commercial she gave him, >> right? >> And I They said, "This is disastrous." I. said, "It's Madonna. What were you. thinking you were going to get?". >> What did you think? >> What did you think you were going to. get? She's giving him a real name. >> But I mean, you see what I'm saying? But. yet, was the record successful? Hell. yeah. >> Huge. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Massive. >> Get out of the way. >> Yeah. Get out of the way. >> Bob Dylan, get out of the way. Yeah. But.

people can't figure that out if they're. not creative people. They really. genuinely think that they know better, >> but they want control. Yes. >> And the answer to it is, >> I would rather have a company full of. outofcontrol artist. than a bunch of control pencil pushers. and accountants that know nothing about. people and what they like or what could. titillate their sensibilities. >> Yes. >> Okay. It's got to be somebody that knows. how to Well, are they going to be in.

clubs all night? No. But we are. Are. they going to travel around the world to. festivals and everything? No, they're. not going to be there, but we are. >> Right. >> So, wouldn't you trust us when we come. back home and say, "Okay, I got the. shit." It's just they think they know. better and they have the money and they. have the power and they want to keep. control. And one of the things that they. really do enjoy controlling is. controlling people that can do things. that they can't do. >> Ah, very true. Yeah. >> And that's the And by the way, they. know.

>> Yeah. >> And they'll come up to you and what they. call is giving you advice. You know what. it's called to me? Insulting, >> right? >> Yeah. >> It's insulting. >> The giving you advice is just so it's. just so crazy. Someone who doesn't do it. giving you advice on how to do it. >> You want to hear how that sounds, Lionel? If I were you, >> and you know what I say back quieter to. myself? But you're not. >> But you're not. >> But you're not. If I were you, if you. were if you were me, you would be. listening to you going, "What is this. [ __ ] idiot saying?".

>> If I came back to you, Mr. You know, and. I'd say, "Hey, if I were you, I would do. this with the company." And you look at. me and go, "Kid, you don't know what. you're talking about." And that's the. right answer, >> right? >> But if you're talking to an artist, >> right, >> by the way, we could run the company. if you let us. >> Yeah. >> But the point is, it's too late. Everybody knows everything now. And so. that's the point. It's called the It's. called the Peter principle. Everyone. elevates their themselves to their level.

of incompetence. And now that you're who you are, you've. now null and board yourself and the. industry, whatever it is we're into, you've done it. It's done. Cooked. So my. point now is we've got a world now of. specialist. that knows nothing about the actual. doing it, >> right? is a world that is crazy that and. they have so much power and control over. artists and they have been successful in. creating an artist. >> but not even but not even artist.

everybody I mean in other words they. have people who have never been in a. successful marriage longer than 12 weeks. giving you advice on marriage. >> it's true. >> think about this you know if I were you. do this my answer is if you ever want to. find out about anything. Don't ask. anybody young. Ask old people. They've. been through the blitz of World War II. They've been through this the.

depression. They've been through the. crisis. Don't ask anybody young. Why? Because if it comes on the phone, >> you don't know anything. If you want some real good advice, when. I got to Mottown, who did I ask first? Marvin. >> Right. >> You think he knows? He knows, >> crazy as he can be, but it doesn't. matter, >> right? >> He was the creative killer. Who do I ask. about record business? Barry Ahmed. Erdigan. >> Yeah. >> Come on, guys. These guys were the most.

incredible people on the planet. And so. what I'm saying to you is right now. we're taking advice from people who just. graduated from nothing, >> right? >> What are you coming from? So that's. where I I only I just find it very. interesting that before I ask the. question of anything, I go, "How did you. do it first?". And you say, "Well, this is my first. time doing it. Thank you. I'll I'll talk.

to you later.". It's just bizarre that the the industry. needs people like that. It's just a bad. setup. It's a bad set. It's like it. doesn't maximize creative output. It. gets in the way. >> Well, let me tell you, it's we're so far. down the road now because. what happens now is it it all became. legitimate when I say that. Not that I. was a a a nice uh a nice fan of of.

gangsters, but but it's something. rewarding about giving someone a chance. to. play. Here's some money. Go play. Now, what's. going to happen is he's either going to. win. or you're going to lose. But if you win, you might get a group called the. Beatles. If you win, you might get a. group out of San Francisco called Sly.

the Stones. If you win, you might get a. group called the Temptations. If you. win, you might get Diana Ross. If you. win, you might get a Taylor Swift. You. know what I'm saying? In other words, just just let the artist go, >> right? >> Let them go. And that goes with. everything. You know, there's there's. people who, like I said, in in school, they're incredible academically. they. can recite to you everything that's ever. happened and will give you every you. know backup to that now that we have.

chat GPT and it's not not so much the. same but but the point is and then there. are those that go I wrote a poem I'd. like you to hear it or I read a book I. want you to hear about it I have an idea. about. going to Mars. what. I mean you know you just I mean the. first thing is before you become a. genius, you have to take the responsibility of.

being an absolute idiot to everybody. around you. An idiot is when you came up. with your first idea. Lionel, where do. you hear all your songs from? I hear him. from the other side. Lionel's an idiot. Where did I say that? On a university. campus. Now, when the world finally becomes. attuned to your frequency, oh my god, you hear the word genius. The. answer is no. I'm still the idiot that. suggested it from the beginning.

>> Well, I think if you said that today. though, don't you think more people. would be inclined to listen to you. saying the songs, the ideas come from. the other side? >> But now, yes. >> But now, yes. Because I can explain to. them. because why? They trust me now. But even. if they didn't know you now, I think. that idea is more. >> Well, yes. Yeah. Now, yes, you're right. Because now we've opened that channel up. now to where people can talk like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. >> But back then, >> 197069,

68, >> right? >> Talking like that means Lionel is on. either LSD. >> or some kind of tab. He's on some kind. of tab. Yeah. But he's definitely not in. his right mind. >> Yeah. Or he's mentally unwell. that just. aids in his brilliance. But he's crazy. A genius maniac. >> Yeah. >> But he won't be here long, >> right? That's like Kanye West. >> Yeah. We'll get. >> genius maniac. >> We'll get him to rehab as soon as.

possible. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's what they were doing a. lot of Kanye's career, just trying to. manage his insanity that also led to. this insane creative output. >> Yeah. I mean, I I'll be honest with you. Uh Richard Prior, I use this as my. perfect example. I mean, I I I would. just wait for his next what's coming out. of his mouth, >> right? >> And then one day he sobered up. and couldn't get funny. >> And I kept thinking, what just happened? Well, he went to rehab. Well, yeah, I.

know, but where's the. >> right. >> where's your edge? >> Yeah. >> You know, so you know, some there's a. word for it. There's a phrase for it. where you learn your craft under the. influence of. And if you happen to not know how you. got there off of the influence that when. you finally get off of it, you don't. know how to get back to it. >> Yeah. >> Unless you go back on it. >> Well, even if you do, it's a different. place.

>> Like my one of my favorite examples of. this is Stephen King. >> I love early Stephen King. If you. listen, I mean, if you read rather. The Shining, Tommy Knockers, I mean, Misery, >> Kujo, Pet Cemetery, but this was. cocaine, snorting, beer, drinking, out. of his [ __ ] mind. >> Like, he he wrote entire books and. doesn't remember anything about writing. them. I.

to be in their presence. is one of the most incredible things. you'll ever see and hear and experience. in your life. Again, I got to the point. where if I was just allowed in the room. remember now. I mean, I was allowed in. the room when Marvin and and Stevies and. God, I could. >> Did you grasp that historically at the. time? Like what that meant? >> I couldn't breathe. Did I grasp it? I.

couldn't breathe. >> Wow. >> I mean, do you know what this was? This. was the gift of life. I mean, that's. Barry Gordy, right? You know what Barry. Gordy was back in the day? God, he. existed on the moon somewhere. You know, Holland Doia and Holland. These were, you know, this is out there. in the moon. Artha Franklin and and. Armit Erdigan and uh King Curtis and.

this this is the moon people, man. Sammy. Davis Jr., Sydney Poier. These are moon. people. and to have them sit in a room, not in a seminar, in their living room. saying, "You know what? Let me tell you. a story about. [Music]. now." There's one part of me going, "Mhm. Mhm.". And then there's another part of me. going, "Holy [ __ ] I'm sitting here.

listening to freaking Barry Gord Sydney. Porty." You follow me? >> Yeah. >> How did I get in that room? So, another. title was going to be was fly on the. wall, but I just didn't want to be a. fly. But but the point is, I mean, I had. the opportunity one on one, not in a TED talk, >> right? >> But one on-one with some of the greatest. people of our time. >> How well did you know Richard Prior? >> Oh my god, man. Richard was wonderful. I.

mean, well, I mean, Paul Mooney, Richard. Prior, and um. >> I knew Mooney real well. >> I mean, this was. again totally. out of his mind, totally funny, but more. importantly, totally in charge. I mean, he knew his I saw his frustration. because they were trying to deal with. him commercially. They discovered that maybe he might be.

able to be on network television. Wrong answer, you know, but he was so. gifted. in presenting. the street struggle. and you laughed about it. Miss Rudolph. was Miss Rudolph, man. I mean, when he. said Miss Rudolph, everybody knew what. you're talking about, you know? Or, you. know, they put me in jail for shooting. my car. I mean I mean I mean you know but to.

know him off. uh camera to know him off the stage you. know what I found a lot about my. comedian for instance you know there's a. to make things funny. you have to take dark things. and make them funny. >> Yeah. But they stayed most of the time. in darkness. And Richard was in darkness. a lot of time. A lot of time of his. life. >> Yeah. That was surprising to people. You.

know, when you see a guy that's so funny. and so loved, you see assume his life. must be amazing. But he was struggling. all the time. >> All the time. >> I mean, he later revealed that, you. know, the story from uh Jojo Dancer, your life is calling, which is like. loosely based around his life. Mhm. >> He accidentally caught on fire. >> Yeah. >> But in real life, he set himself on. fire. >> Of course he did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, >> the book the book that I just finished,

it's it's the struggle. Everyone keeps. saying, "What did you start off in the. rural south?" Forget the rural south. I. was struggling with myself, which is. what everybody struggles with. So the. answer is it it's not that I made it. It's this who was I struggling with. >> You were struggling with yourself. >> and all of us are struggling with. ourselves. >> That's what made the book to me so. meaningful because people will walk back. to me and go Lionel I felt the same way. Now you know what that's called in my.

business? A hit record. >> When you write a song and everybody. comes back to you and says, "Man, I was. feeling the same way." You got a hit. record. >> Yeah. Well, when you can write in a book. vulnerability, when you can write in a. book fear, when you can write in a book, I'm not sure. I wasn't sure. I was. scared. They go, "How could you be scared?" And and do. all that. And the answer is step. forward. >> Yeah. >> Step forward. Scared to death. We're all.

scared to death. Are you kidding me? You. know, we don't know what we're doing. from day to day. It's just we work it. out. >> Yeah. But it's not where we all this. confidence and crap. No, no, no, no. And. as time goes on, you kind of develop a. little Okay. And it's called filling out. your skin. As time goes on, you you get. a little bit more confident in the fact. that I kind of know what I'm doing. >> Becoming a professional. >> There you go. But for the beginning. stages of your life, what the hell. you're doing? >> Come on. >> Yeah. You can't. Yeah. Yeah, but it's.

just very valuable for people to hear. that from someone that's very successful. >> because people just look at a guy like. you and go he's just Lionel Richie. I. mean, it's just it is what it is. You. know what I mean? Must be nice. >> I know. >> That's how they look at it. I know. >> They don't think of, oh, that's a. bizarre path that a human being took. >> to superstardom. It's a strange. >> and at any one point in the life I could. have turned around and said I quit. >> Yeah. And that's that's very valuable. for people to hear as well. And people.

will in the fact that you're so honest. and you're so open about things, it. helps so much because when people read. that, they'll they'll think of. themselves and the the moments where. they've struggled or the moments where. they've been unsure of themselves or not. sure what to do or wanted to quit and. didn't. >> It's like this is universal. It's. universal. And the difference between a. Lionel Richie and um Sandy Smith out. there who's listening to this is that. Sandy Smith hasn't started taking her. first steps. and that if she keeps going. down that line, >> she could be her.

>> Yeah. >> You know, it's just. >> it's just keep going. It's the there's. there's talent, there's gifts of God, there's all sorts of things. But. >> one of those things that they all have. in common, if you know of them, it's. they kept going. Yeah. Like Jimmyi. Hendris clearly obviously was godly. gift. Absolutely. >> Gifted. Just gifted something special. >> Also worked like a [ __ ]. >> Like the work the work ethic was insane. has to be. Think about how many records. Nas wrote. They were releasing records.

for years after his death. Years after. his death, he never left the studio. It. just worked. >> That's how you get that good. >> That's how you get there. >> You see Biggie on the streets in. Brooklyn when he was 17 years old. You're like, "Oh, okay." With sheets of. paper, >> wrapping with perfect flow at 17. You're. like, "Okay, >> I get it.". >> You just go. >> Or you get around major corporate. leaders and you say to myself, "Oh my. god, you built this company." I say, "I. was bankrupt 12 times.". >> Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Oh, you. were. All you remember was. >> the smash, but you don't remember, oh,

what? What? What are you talking about? You know, in other words, >> how many times can you take no? How many. times can you take rejection, >> right? >> How many times can you go, I quit. And. then you wake up the next morning, go, I. got another idea. >> Yeah. >> Because they the world is designed to. make you go away. >> Right. >> It's very simple. Right. >> Don't get psyched out. I tell the kids. on on American, don't get psyched out. Just because this person can hit every. note perfectly and you have this cracky.

voice and it's it's but I can't remember. this perfect voice but I can remember. your cracky voice. >> That means you've got personality. This. is a great karaoke singer over here. >> Right. Perfect notes don't work. >> versus something authentic that really. resonates with you. >> There we go. There we go. There we go. >> Yeah. >> I want to know what your little quirk. is. What's that? What's that thing? >> Yeah. >> You know, Cardi B is Cardi B for a. reason, right? >> Do you follow what I'm saying? There's a.

lot of folks that came along, right? >> Cardi B is I mean, I'm just using her as. one example, >> but the the wonderful thing about it is. she came with a personality. She came. with a thing. >> Yeah. >> You know, and to me, that's the quality. I'm looking for, not only in the music. business, but in life. Okay. So, you're. rich. Okay. So, but who are you? What? Right. What's your What's your thing? What's your. >> Who are you? >> Do I like being around you? >> Do I like being around you? Are you Tell.

me what you What is it? Yeah. >> Otherwise, you're just rich. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And you got stuff. Okay. >> But who are you? >> Right. You have a shitty foundation in. your house. >> Exactly. Right. >> You have a beautiful house on a shitty. foundation. >> Oh, you got no taste at all. There's a. lot of no taste. >> Well, listen, Lionel, it's been a real. honor having you on here, man. and a. real pleasure and I really enjoyed. talking to you, man. It's fascinating. conversation and I really applaud your. honesty and your your insight into your.

life. It's it's amazing. It's really. awesome. >> Well, I got to be honest with you. There's an old expression that goes uh. sometimes you don't want to meet the. person because they may not be what you. thought they were. You know, uh you're. exactly who I thought. >> Oh, you're going to be Yeah. No, I mean. cuz you know you mastered this. personality where you can sit down and. talk to just about everybody. And on the. days when you struggle with trying to. make a communication with somebody and.

it doesn't work out, I go I understand. why it didn't work out because you know. you sometimes you have a block right in. front of you. You go, "Okay, I'll just. have to deal with the block." But I've. enjoyed this man. This is I have a lot. of fun. Lot of fun. >> Thank you. And best of luck with. everything. And you've already had best. of luck with the book. Come on. Truly. Lana Richie out now. Did you do the. audio version? >> We did the I did not do the audio. version. >> Somebody else did it. >> I did. I swear to you, I did not do it. Um Um Um.

>> How? Well, you know what it was. >> If you know Lionel Richie, okay, let me. tell you something. For the time it took me to write this. book. to two and a half years. Okay, so let me. just let me be honest with you. You. don't want me to read this book because. I'd go, I don't want to put that in. Guys, can I change that one line? And. you follow me? So, I keep creating. I. keep creating. And so, it's just one of.

those things. >> The dude who read it at least sound a. little like you. >> Oh, no. Wait, wait. I I'm drawing a. blank. Why am I drawing uh drawing a. blank? >> Blair Underwood. >> Blair Jeez. Blair Underwood. >> Okay. >> Blair Underwood. I love we first of all. we kind of had kids in in common. Our. kids went to the same school. So when I. say we had kids in common, no we didn't. have the same thing. No no but we had. kids at the same time. And so we met. back then. But what I love about him is. he understands. >> the I call it the middle class approach.

to. to to my life. In other words, he. understood the fact that did we grow up. in the rural south? Did we struggle? Then we said, "No, no, it's it's not. that kind of struggle." We had a. struggle of understanding our identity. and how to take that forward as artist. and he understood the humor. I love his. voice because it's not so identifiable. that it if it was a Morgan Freeman, I'm. just giving that as a perfect example. And I love Morgan, but it's too. identifiable. I want somebody who can.

tell a joke and it sound like Lionel, >> right? Right. >> You know, he had that quality. And so. when I I said, "No, no, no. I want I. want you.". >> We hit it off. Well, his voice, you'll. hear it. >> Understandable. >> You'll you'll understand. >> Well, thank you, Lionel. Thank you. again. And best of luck again with. everything. Really appreciate it. >> Thanks. It was awesome. Bye, everybody. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].