Joe Rogan Experience #2384 - Mark Kerr

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> Good. Mark, what's happening? >> Dude, the movie's fantastic. And I know. I told you outside, but I wanted to save. it. When I kind of have a had a little. bit of a prejudice when I went to see. the movie. I was like, "Okay, it's going. to be an MMA movie." Yeah. >> But it's not. It's a movie that happens. to be about MMA, but it's a great movie.

>> Oh, I appreciate that. >> It's really good, man. It's It's like, you know, it's very gripping and the. performances are fantastic. And the way. The Rock did you was nuts. >> I like I can't explain it. It I I keep. using the word surreal, but it doesn't. describe it. Um, like I was saying, my. son when he watched it and just flipping. out like talking to me like on the side, like I was saying, like literally just.

going, "Dad, dad, he's got your. mannerisms. He's got your speech. patter." But you imagine like I'm I'm. picturing my son, he's in New York when. he watched that. And so I'm picturing. him in the corner of the lobby of the. theater talking with his back to. everybody going, "Oh my god, dad." like. it's like a doppelganger. He's got all. of it, you know, like fullblown like it. was like the the the because a lot of my. saying for myself is I'm I can't see the. forest through the trees. I'm in the.

middle of it. Am I looking at it. objectively? Am I really looking at it. or or am I seeing something? And to hear. my son say, "Oh my gosh, Dad, he nailed. it.". >> Right. No, unbelievable. He really did. nail it. I like we were saying in the. lobby, like I didn't know The Rock could. act that well. >> You know, you know, it's really good. acting. It's not like blockbuster movie. acting, which is he's great at that, but. it's it's a different thing. >> It it's comp. So, with DJ, I kept trying to say to him, you don't have to do this, dude. Like, you don't have to do this. And he would.

he would stop me and he would go, "Yeah, I do. I do.". >> What do you mean by you don't have to do. this? >> So, meaning that like he's at he's at a. place in his life where he can just keep. doing blockbusters and be perfectly fine. with it. >> There's there I mean, he says it. himself. There's always a place for. that. There's always going to be a place. for blockbuster movies and and for that. But he needed to do something different. >> He needed to do something different. >> Well, it's a perfect role if you want to. do something different for him because.

it's a very complex role and it's about. a giant dude and that's him. So, it's. like really like the perfect way because. otherwise if you're built like he is, >> it's very hard to get work as a serious. actor. This might be like the only. opportunity to show people like, "Hey, I. can actually act.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I think he did it. >> He did an amazing job. I mean, to. >> amazing to the point where like Emily,

unbelievable. >> She's great. She plays such a crazy. [ __ ]. >> Oh my god, man. She's so good at it. >> Oh my god. >> She's so good at playing crazy. >> Oh my god. >> It gave me anxiety. Like some of. sometimes like when you're getting ready. to fight and she's starting arguments, I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm getting. anxiety.". >> So So here's what was so vet. So I saw a. a 80% complete version of the film in in.

January of this year. And then um and. then the first time I see a complete. version of it was in Venice. And so I'm. in Venice and there's Benny on my right. and there's DJ on my left and there's. Emily next to uh DJ. in the last scene. of the movie, right? That intensity of. that scene, I'm just telling you, it was like I I. said it was therapy for me. >> cuz I think for the first time I could. actually I could actually see my part in.

it. Like I could see my part, how. [ __ ] hard I was on the people around. me, >> you know, how just singularly driven I. was to accomplish something at at all. cost. And the person that paid it the. most was Dawn. She paid a heavy price, you know, and you know, anybody that's. successful, you know, for me, I was. trying to raise everybody up, you know, everybody around me. And it was just. this selfish endeavor. And I could see. it in those moments. I could see it in.

what who DJ was, you know, and who Emily. was and the intensity of it. I was like, [ __ ] Well, it's such a crazy task to. try to be an elite MMA fighter at a time. where there was no no one even knew what. it was. >> No. >> I mean, you when you first I met you in. 97. There's a crazy photo of us. together. >> I saw that. >> Dude, 97. That's like 30 years ago. almost. Isn't that nuts? >> It's so This is what's [ __ ] crazy. So.

trying to describe what I did back then, like people their jaws would hang open, >> right? >> They would go, "You do what?". >> Like, "Why would you do that? That's us. Look at that.". >> Oh my god. >> 1997, dude. That's so crazy. >> Oh my god. >> So crazy. >> Oh my god. >> Were they even paying you back then? >> A little bit. They paid me a little bit. It wasn't a lot of money, but it was for. me. It was just for fun. It was like I. was a giant fan of the sport. And what. happened was Campbell McLaren. Do you.

remember Campbell? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um he he was good friends with my. manager Jeff and uh they were just. talking and he said, "Uh, we need a guy. to do backstage interviews, post-fight. interviews." And he goes, "Joe really. loves the sport." He's like, "Really?". He goes like, "Oh yeah, he follows all. the fights in Japan." And he's like, >> and so for me it was just fun. I mean, it it wasn't it was actually costing me. money, which is why I wind up quitting. because I quit and I did it for like a. year and a half, two years maybe. And.

then in 98, I was like, I can't do this. anymore. I'm just it's just actually. costing me money. And so then when I um. started doing Fear Factor, that's when. Zufa bought it. I w up working for them. again. But. >> in those days, it was it was for me it. was a dream because as a lifelong. martial artist, when I was a kid, there. was always the big question, what was. the best style? And no one knew until Hy. and Gracie put it all together and. decided to create the UFC. >> And then all a sudden we get to see it. And then obviously you had Japan Valley.

Tudo and then Pride and all these big. events over in Japan and. >> and it it became to me it was like. finally someone did it. >> That was so part of my first fights in. Brazil. I was still uh brainwashed by. the idea that oh [ __ ] he's 7 foot tall. or 69. He's the toughest dude in the. room, >> right? >> Cuz cuz you cuz that's how I grew up, right? Or 10th degree black belt, same. thing. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Oh, no, no, no. Don't mess with him. >> Yeah. >> And in one where where that first time I.

fought, I was still under the delusion. that that was the truth. >> Mhm. >> And so my trainer kept going, "Uh, trust. me, you're going to you're going to do. fine. Trust me, you're going to do. fine." And it's just like he understood. what what what I was as a wrestler, you. know, that I can impose. Like I tell. you, the def best definition I've ever. had for a wrestler is I can hold a grown. ass man where he doesn't want to be held. for as long as I want to hold him there. and he can't do a [ __ ] thing about. it.

>> Exactly. >> That's a wrestler. >> And you can dictate where the fight. takes place always. So if you come a. wrestler like Chuck Liddell, then you. say, "No, no, no. You can't take me. down. So I'm just going to beat the [ __ ]. out of you standing and there's nothing. you could do about it." not not a single. thing. >> It's the most important skill. >> Oh my god, it's foundational. >> Foundational. >> And and that's why there's so much. success for for the deck. Um I I'm going. to blank on the names, but uh the. >> the wrestlers are it's a resurgence of.

like really what a foundational piece it. is. >> Yeah. >> And how important it is when you have a. high high. You know what they're able to. do too as a wrestler? I used just look. at the Russian wrestlers and go, "What. makes them so good?" They could flurry. in succession more times than I could. >> Like Kurt Angle, right? When I wrestled. against Kurt, Kurt trained at a level. that I wasn't training at. >> He could sustain a flurry to the point. where I would just make mistakes cuz I.

would be to exhaustion. And you watch. them these they'll string these moves. together and string them together. >> Oh my god. Unbelievable. >> Unbelievable. Because you'll see you'll. see him shoot, re-shoot, shoot again, get up, stand up, fake, shoot again, and. you can't keep up with it. >> You just inevitably you just make. mistakes or you just give into the. exhaustion of the moment, right? Yeah. >> And it's just like, okay, >> nothing you can do about it. And. >> when a guy has insane cardio with those.

kind of skills, it is the toughest. combination to beat. Like Kane Velasquez. is in his prime, >> you know. >> Oh my god. insane cardio, elite. wrestling, and then elite MMA standup. skills as well. >> Like, get everything. >> The cardio is the scariest thing cuz. when you're scared to hit the gas, like. I three more minutes in the round, and. you see Kane is just [ __ ] bobbing. around and like he's not even breathing. heavy in between rounds. His stomach's. not even heaping. >> He's a big deal. >> He's 240 and he's not even tired. It. doesn't make any sense.

>> Yeah, it defies logic. >> But there's guys like that that have. that [ __ ] insane cardio, you know? I. mean, I don't know how much you're. following the UFC, but there's this kid. Anthony Hernandez in the middleweight. division that's nuts. And then you got. Morab Dobish Willie who's like the best. example of it. Unstoppable. >> So, this is kind of again one of these. things where where there's certain. athletes that have a gear. >> Mhm. >> that nobody else has. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's just how they're built. It's. just how they're built. >> Well, I remember when you came along and.

when Coleman came along, all of a. sudden, everybody's like, I got to get. on steroids. >> Yeah. Oh my god. Everybody's like, I got. to get bigger. I got to get bigger. That's when Vtor got up to like 240. pounds. >> He was big. He was big. >> Way too big for his frame. >> I mean, you're talking about a guy who. eventually w up fighting at 185. Yeah. Right. I mean, he finished his career up. at 85 and he was there at 240 when he. fought Randy the first time, which was. bananas. >> So, that night was my last UFC. That was. UFC 15. >> Ah, wow.

>> And that's when Randy beat Vtor. >> Mhm. And it was one of those where I'm. like, "Oh, just wait." I Because I know. what Randy is, >> right? >> Ry's cardio. >> Randyo's like, "He can take it." And he. It was one of those things where I was. like, "I don't think Victor's going to. win.". >> Right. >> It's just called him back then. His name. was Victor. >> Yeah. >> When he first came into the UFC, his. first fight when he was fighting in. Hawaii, he was Victor Gracie. >> Oh, snap. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was going by the the last.

name Gracie. And then I think he got. sued or threatened with a lawsuit and. then he changed it to Victor Buffer. because like Hian was very ligious, you. know, he was like very protective of the. Gracie name. >> and um so he fought John Hess in Hawaii. and beat the living [ __ ] out. >> Rumble on the Rock stuff or whatever. >> I don't think it was Rumble on the Rock. That was BJ's promotion and that was. later. This was like really early on. This was uh I don't know who the [ __ ]. was doing that event, but it was just in. a ring and Vtor came out and blitzed him.

with punches and nobody had seen. anything like that before. Like, oh god, this is a cuz everybody thought. Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt. You. don't think you're going to have a guy. who has hands like that? >> Oh my god, his hand speed was unreal. >> He was so fast. >> Unreal and accurate. >> Yeah, >> like he could be fast and that's one. thing, but fast and actually hitting the. target when the target's bobbing and. weaving. It's like, oh my god, man. He's. an interesting case study because he's. uh like first of all pioneer right first. fought in the UFC when he was 19 years.

old crazy. >> and you know went through won the. tournament at 19 which is just bananas. and then when we got to see him kind of. he got off the sauce and his body kind. of faded out and then they brought back. testosterone replacement and then when. testosterone replacement came in all the. sudden it was TRT Vtor and He was the. scariest [ __ ] alive for like. five fights or whatever it was before. they killed the TRT exemptions and then.

it all went away for him. >> It's just like that should be a. commercial for testosterone replacement. >> Yeah. I mean it really could be, you. know, part, you know, back then because. there was so much myth surrounding mixed. martial arts that you felt like if you. didn't do something, it was like the. saying is like, oh, you're going to a. gunfight with a knife, right? It was. that type of mentality back then. >> Was also everyone was on it and there. was no testing. >> Yep. Yeah. >> And in fact in Pride when Enen was on.

the podcast he told me that in large. letters it said we do not test for. steroids. Oh my god. They're like. >> so they would. they would do this. They would hand you. a cup and go urine and you go uh who's. clean? You just look around and you just. you just hand the cup off going, "Can. you piss from here. and and you literally walk back to the. medical and go? >> Here's the Yeah. Here. And I mean that's.

the. >> but that's the era it was. >> So your first fight was it was it in. Brazil? >> In Brazil. Yeah. >> And um the crazy thing is they. reproduced that arena that that. conference room perfectly. >> Yeah. Like cuz I saw your first fight. I. saw all those early fights and then to. see that in like the movie I was like, "Oh, they did it. This is perfect." Cuz. you know sometimes they fudge a little, you know, they. >> So So here's what So I was in Vancouver.

for the set when they had the set up and. I I was sitting there I was laughing. with Benny about it going, "All right, who came up with the pyramid in the door. opening with fog machines?" I go because. it's like like I can't even imagine the. brainstorm going you got any bright. ideas of how to introduce the yeah let's. do a pyramid and let's have a trapoor. fall you know it's like what the [ __ ]. where like where where in the bigger. picture of stuff going but they. reproduced it to to the tea it was.

perfect oh my god it was amazing. >> it was really great because in in the. movie they did about Mark Schultz what. was that movie again um. [Music]. >> [ __ ] in Fox Catcher. That's right. That that movie had a lot of shenanigans. in it. There was a lot of stuff that. wasn't accurate. >> Wasn't accurate. Like he fought Big. Daddy Goodrich in his one MMA fight, but. in the movie he's fighting some Russian. dude. >> Didn't make any sense. >> Completely different cat. >> Fought a white guy in the movie.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. You fought Big Daddy Goodrich and. Big Daddy was wearing the ghee like. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Remember? I mean, not only that, but it was a Big Daddy Goodriidge is a. legend. Like, how do you leave him out. when that was his only MMA fight? >> Like, why did you change the guy he. fought? That doesn't even make any. sense, >> but they just did Hollywood shenanigans, >> yo. So, you know, that was a huge part. from the beginning of this when when DJ. and I DJ and and I talked back in 2019.

is just the like the trust factor. >> You guys started talking about this in. 2019. >> 2019. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Six [ __ ] years. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. Here's what's crazy. So, so he. says, "Hey, you know, we're going to. move forward with this and and I so for. me, I hadn't even thought about any of. this like it being a movie. He wants to. play me in a movie." And he goes, "I'm. going to make the announcement. Madison. Square Garden at the BMF belt." He goes.

this, we had this beautiful conversation. and it was just like this, "Do you trust. me?" And it was like, "Yeah, yeah, I. do.". >> He's a [ __ ] great dude. >> Oh my god. Solid. He's, by the way, he. says, "Say hi." He left me a great. message on the way over here. I was. listening to him, man. He's just he's. he's a rare human being. >> He is. I'm I'm going to call him after. this just to tell him what a [ __ ]. amazing job he did cuz I I wanted to. watch it right before I saw you. Okay. >> So, I watched it today and I was like, "God damn, this is a good movie, man.".

And I just I was just blown away by how. well he captured the chaos of the Pride. organization, all the the weirdness of. the contract negotiations, everything off. So, so Benny from the beginning said, "The. only way we're going to be able to do. this is have that authenticity to the. point where I sent them. watches, rings, necklaces, posters,

everything I could find, picture-wise, everything to their props in. production." Oh, wow. And they. reproduced. everything. >> Oh, wow. So Joe, and when I I mean like. when I went up to Vancouver. like and walked into some of these sets. like literally going, "Holy [ __ ]. shit.". >> Did he flashback? >> Oh my god. Like Like you'd walk into a. room and there there'd be from one. corner all the way to the other on the. wall just pictures of me and my house.

and my this and this outfit and this and. these in my house and this and and then. production saying, "Okay, was this. accurate? How did this It was this It. was this unbelievable painstaking. They. rebuilt my life 25 years ago. So when DJ. got into carrot got into me, he actually. was that was he was me. Wow. >> Yeah, it seemed like it, man. I mean, it. really did because, you know, >> it's just it's hard when a guy's so.

famous to pretend that he's someone. else. he has to like be really good to. get you convinced. And I was all in. I. was all in. >> So, first time I saw him in uh in. Vancouver, like nobody told me. Nobody. said, "Hey, listen. We're going to do. prosthetics. We're going to give him. your cauliflower ear. We're going to. make his brow." And nobody told me this. So, I was up there for fight week and uh. they're getting ready to shoot uh the. scene where they're introducing. everybody to the finalist for the Grand.

Prix. And so DJ's the last one to walk. in and I'm watching the ring. I don't. know he's behind me. And I turn around. and it's like this like I see him as me. like this is Joe. This is what I did. I'm like [ __ ] you. Like [ __ ] you. Like. oh my god. And it's this moment where. I'm looking at him and I'm I'm looking. at my like myself. >> Yeah. I could still see him in there, but I'm like looking at a like a mirror.

picture myself and it's this experience. where I'm like, "Oh my god, man." Like, wow. Like you like you're going like. this is you going to a place that nobody. even thought you could get to, >> right? >> Like it was it was incredible. Well, you're you're such an important part of. the history of MMA that I think this. movie did that. It really honored that.

It really did it justice because at the. the end of the movie when it talks about. how fighters today make millions of. dollars. >> I'll cry. I This is Go on. I'm sorry. >> No, it's okay. It's like but that you. guys paved the way. If it wasn't for you. guys just doing it for very little. money, like barely getting by, putting. your whole life on the line and barely. getting by. Oh, and I love that you had. Alexander Usyk. >> Oh my god, is he. >> play of Chen Chen? This episode is. brought to you by Happy Dad Hard. Seltzer. Happy Dad's Hard Drinks are a.

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>> So Benny signed him before he beat. before he became the undisputed champ. >> Oh wow. Right. 2019. Yeah. Wow. So, so. it's one of those things where um. everything just kind of lined up in a. way where you're like, >> "All right, this is like this is. manifest destiny, right? This is like. this is like Joe Despensza, you know, like like really like you're really. tapping into something that's bigger. because it's pulled all these people. together.". >> Usyk did a great job, too.

>> Oh, he did. Oh my god, he did that spinning back. I'm like, he's a boxer. He's not. supposed to. >> Yeah. I mean, I didn't even know he. could do that. >> No, neither did or die. >> That's kind of crazy. Well, I guess I. could kind of do anything. >> Oh my god. He's He's You know how many. rounds he trained prior to to uh. fighting Tyson Fury? >> No. >> 600. >> Jesus. >> With three different training partners. So, every dude came in every third. round. He had a fresh guy on him.

>> I know that he was doing 15 rounds a day. and he made a deal with himself that his. back touched the ropes. He would have to. do another round, an extra round. >> So he That's one that I didn't hear. that. But he he said he would do rounds. where he wasn't allowed to punch. >> Oh wow. >> At all. He just had to bob and even. defense. I'm like, >> okay. Like. >> like he he takes he's like one of us. Like he just takes it to a level that. >> is just unbelievable.

>> He's a genius. Like a literal boxing. genius. Like and I don't use that term. lightly. like what he did to Dubois, I. was like, "Oh my god." Because when you. see Dubois, when Dubois knocked out um. Anthony Joshua, you're like, "Wow, this. kid might be the future." Yeah, he is a. [ __ ] destroyer. He's seeking destroy, brutal power, giant guy, incredible. athlete. >> And Usyk just pieced him up. Just took. him, dismantled him, and took him apart. and did it with all skill. >> Un like literally like understanding.

He's not the biggest dude in the world. He's big, but he's not like 69, right? >> No, he's not Tyson Fury. He's not Dubos. >> He's not Dubai. He's not. >> Tyson Anthony Joshua Joshua. None of. them. No. >> Now he's a cruiserweight. >> He's a cruiserweight that beat everybody. and knew that the only way to make real. money is to go up to heavyweight. Yeah. >> And really have leave a real legacy cuz. he could have been one of those guys. that retired as an undefeated. cruiserweight. And boxing fans like. myself would talk about him, but. everybody else would be like, "Who? >> Who?" Yeah. Meanwhile, now he's in the.

conversation of one of the greatest. >> Oh, for sure. >> Tyson Ali, he's like he's in there with. that conversation. >> And it's just consistently an. overachiever. Consistently an. overachiever. >> and he's [ __ ] 38. >> which is even like. >> even crazier cuz it's like he hasn't. shown any slipping in his skill level at. all or his endurance or his enthusiasm. or his discipline. None of it. >> just but also it's like he was so. fortunate to have been trained by. Lomachenko's dad. >> I didn't know that.

>> Yeah. So he's like a giant Lomachenko. >> Oh my god. >> Cuz Lomachenko is so agile. So much. footwork and movement. And that makes. sense. >> He's basically like the heavyweight. version of it. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> That makes actually more sense. >> Makes more sense, right? >> Yeah. >> Because. >> his movement for such a big guy is just. extraordinary. It just doesn't exist. anywhere else because it's not just the. light on the feet. It's the angles he. takes after punches and then the. shifting of the weight back to center. when you don't expect it and. >> of.

>> and that's like my son actually it's my. son's birthday today. >> Happy birthday. What's his name? >> Bryce. >> Happy birthday Bryce. >> Yeah. 21, right? I go it's a birthday to. wait for but he's already doing all this. stuff that you you know. >> So they all do. >> Yeah, I know. Right. It's that it's that. age bracket. But uh so my son loves the. science of boxing. >> You know, even 10 years ago when he was. like 11, 12 years old, he would be on. YouTube watching the footwork of boxers. and I'm like.

>> I because I didn't get into that science. of it and footwork and all that until I. started doing MMA like understanding. like I understood wrestling but boxing. on that level is just it's a whole. another complex set of skills. Well, you. were so deep in wrestling though, it's. almost impossible to pay attention to. anything else at the level that you were. competing at. Yeah. >> You have to that has to be everything. you eat, breathe, sleep. >> Yeah. Singular. >> Yeah. It has to be singular. It has to. be. It's almost like you can't.

>> go down any rabbit holes. >> No. And that's one of those where, you. know, my mentor, the guy that uh that. really brought me to another level is a. guy named Chris Campbell. He was Dan. Gable's first NCA champ when Dan Gable. was a coach at Iowa. Um, he made the. 1980 Olympic team that was boycotted, won the 1981 World Championships, voted. best technician in the world, and then. retires and then decides he's going to. make the 90 1992 Olympics in Barcelona.

So, he's at 37 years old, he wins a. bronze medal that year in Barcelona. 37. >> That's pretty impressive for amateur. wrestling. People don't know, that's. unheard of. It's I think still to this. day he's the oldest uh Olympic medalist. >> Wow. >> Because you just don't you just I mean. wrestling's just so demanding phys. >> Oh yeah, it is. It is. So he ends up he. ends up he ends up. >> just really taking me by the hand and. and understanding like singular devotion.

to something. It's he would back then he. did tape study which wasn't a huge huge. deal but literally watching the Russians. wrestle and some of the tapes his. nemesis was this this guy Kadart and you. look and watch the tapes you go I don't. see anything once you slowed it down you. go you can't move him out of position he. doesn't when he attacks and retreats. he's never out of position. >> and you know you look at it and go wow. because it was just these little things.

little things It's amazing that the. Russians achieved that level in not just. wrestling, but also in MMA, also in any. combat sport, name it, boxing, Russian. kickboxers are super technical. They're. all known for being so technical. It's. really interesting, >> you know, >> and it's and again, I would think that. somewhere in there there's a root. there's a common like there's coaches. and mentors because the only way I've. learned how to wrestle or MMA is through. mentorship,

>> you know, somebody really going, "Hey, let me let me show you." And they had a. mentor and they had a mentor. It's this. lineage that's passed along. Um, and I. know I went from being a good wrestler. to being a really good wrestler when. Chris took me under his wing. You know, we drill the same thing thousands of. times and it would be like the. difference between holding my hand here. and holding it here and I'd go, "It's. two inches, right? What's the" And he go. >> when you speed it up to full speed,

those two inches become six, right? >> And so. >> the leverage points. >> Yeah. And so I need him to be here. perfect because once you go full speed, you're going to miss it. But you're only. going to miss it by this much. >> You know, it's interesting that George. St. Pierre, although he never wrestled. in high school or college, his training. in Montreal was with Russian wrestlers. >> It was all Russian nationals who had. moved to Canada. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> GSP. I was just talking to a friend of. mine and uh I said he's probably in my.

book one or two. >> Yeah. Of all time. Yeah. >> Yeah. He's he's certainly in the. convers. So hard to say who because you. know Mighty Mouse I think never got the. credit that he deserved because he was a. 125 and then people forget how good. Anderson was when he was in his prime. People and then BJ Penn BJ Pen when he. was in his prime. I feel like you really. have to look at a guy when he's. redlining like when he's really at the. peak of his abilities. >> You can't judge him by the fights they. fight after their prime. You can't cuz.

it's not fair. You just got to say like. who when they were champion, when they. were running [ __ ] Yeah. Who exhibited a. level of MMA that's above and beyond. everyone else. And George is certainly. in that conversation. >> Oh, he's for sure. I mean, part of um. part of what I like Jon Jones, right? Like. >> like when you get somebody that's at. that level, at his peak, right? And he. can make other professional fighters.

look like they're amateurs. >> They look silly. >> Yeah. >> They don't belong in there. And he was. doing that to guys when he wasn't. training. That was crazy. >> Crazy. >> He was [ __ ] off and barely in the gym. and still dominating in world title. fights. >> Sometimes I get a little upset cuz I'm. like, you know how many fights he. probably as a spectator, as a fan? >> Like how many fights we missed because. of. >> his shenanigans? Yeah. Yeah. just like. just. >> but it's also I mean you know what. happened with you and what happened with.

him and what happens with a lot of guys. is like the pressure of life sometimes. >> and what makes you a great fighter in. the first place there's a certain. wildness. >> and with a guy like John that wildness. it's like it's hard to keep on a leash. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know how that feels. >> Yeah. I'm sure you do. Well, I remember I had no idea and I. don't think anybody had any idea until. the Smashing Machine documentary came. out. >> And when that documentary came out, everybody was like, "Holy shit." First.

of all, kudos to you for allowing people. to see you like that raw, >> completely. honest about all of the addiction. problems, all everything. And no one. would have expected it when they saw. you. They just saw this [ __ ] dominant. destroyer, this guy who's like smashing. everybody and you just thought, "Oh, well that guy's just uh he's just a. machine and just so mentally strong and. he just gets out there and gets it. done." And then you allowed them to show.

you where in the the making of the. documentary, it was what they were. essentially trying to capture was you at. your prime. >> Yeah. >> And what they caught you was you where. your life was falling apart just. fertuitously. >> Yeah. It was just. >> kind of random luck they caught you at. that time. >> So, so when uh John Greenhole, who's the. producer, uh I went to Syracuse with. him. I was we were on the wrestling team. together. He's the one that called me. He said, "Hey, um I want to do a.

documentary." At that point, my vision. of what it was was a little Best Buy. camera where they're like little flip. screen and they show up and they go, "Okay, we're filming a documentary. Hang. on. I got to change tape." you know, and. they show up in Japan for my Voltansion. fight with two 10,000 15,000 whatever. they were digital Sony cameras, a boom. mic, and like five people. I'm like,

"Oh, [ __ ] You're you're like, you're. really going to make a like you're going. to make a documentary." And so he was. right from the get-go, John could see. John could see what was the contrast. like me as a fighter and me as a person, that contrast. Um, and so that's what he. was after is is like to to really show. this contrast and like you can do this. for a living and be this kind, sensitive, you know, >> but that was what was weird about you. It was a very weird contrast because. you're very soft-spoken, very kind,

always very considerate to people, very. nice, and then you get. >> into the cage and it's like, who the. [ __ ] is that guy? >> You know, you know what the feeling is? The feeling is like the question I. always had in my head is going, okay, if. somebody's going to go you, me in a. room, who the [ __ ] coming out? And I. never was able to answer that question. for myself. I know I was competitive, right? But I didn't know if I had that. switch, that thing, and then start. fighting and going, "Oh, [ __ ] man. There there's a switch in there." And I.

figured through that process, what I was. really trying to get is your will. >> I was trying to take your [ __ ] will. >> And most people don't want to give it, >> right? >> Like when you get a high level fighter, it's like Fabio Gelle didn't want to. give me his will. Headbutted him, dug. into cuts, did all this, beat him. mercilessly, and he didn't want to give. me his will. He wouldn't give it to me. >> And it frustrated me. I didn't know how. to take it from him. I'm going, I'm out. of answers. >> You're waiting for him to break. He. doesn't break.

>> He doesn't break. >> Yeah. Some people don't break. You can. break their body, but their will, you. can't break. >> No. He was one of them. He was one of. them. And it's just still to this day, I. mean, the next day, his wife calls me. and I have lunch at his house. >> Wow. >> Which was crazy because my first fights, don't know, everybody in the audience was there for. him. And uh when his wife calls me in. the next day, I I literally go, "Oh, [ __ ] man. Here it is. He's going to. have all his boys up at the house. He's. going to [ __ ] he's going to [ __ ] get.

his due, right?" Like, cuz I didn't. know, >> right? >> And so I go, "Okay, what do I got to. live?" And so I go up and we sit down. just like we're sitting here. And his. wife interprets the whole entire time. And it was this it was actually. beautiful. It was beautiful because. that's awesome. >> Here's here's what it set for me. had. set a standard of how I was going to. carry myself as a fighter. >> What happened in the ring is in the. ring, >> right? >> The second you're out, you're you're.

different. >> Well, that speaks to his character why. you couldn't break his will in the first. place, right? >> Absolutely. >> Because he's such just locked down. >> Absolutely. It was for me it was it was. one of those like. revelations of like okay this is this is. how you do this. >> as a professional. >> Yeah. Well, you know also like Brazil. had a much longer history of these kind. of fights. >> like going way back to the alo Gracie. days and. >> this is an ad by better help. When you.

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going to carry myself. You know, part of. it was, you know, I wanted to. >> change the narrative of like when you. looked at the early UFC's, it looked. like some some guys were just scraped. off a bar stool and thrown into the. octagon, right? Mhm. >> And so when I came there, I was like, "Okay, I want to be considered. professional, right? I want to carry. myself as a professional. I'm going to. be articulate. I'm going to dress as a. professional. I'm going to because I. wanted to up the ante. I wanted to like.

raise the standard, right? Especially. when I went to Japan, it was like, you. know, press conference, everybody's in. sweatuits. I'm in a, you know, I. couldn't afford it, but I was in a. thousand Calvin Klein suit that had put. on a charge card, right? But I wanted to change the narrative. I. wanted to be I wanted to be a. professional because if I was a. professional, treated like a. professional, I could ask for pay like a. professional, >> not like some dude that was just scraped. off a bar stool and thrown into a ring.

>> So what was what was the pride. experience like? So you you had fought. in the UFC and then did did you have a. contract that expired? Like what. happened? So, oh boy, this is So, I. signed a three-ight tournament deal with. the UFC. I did 14 and 15 and I still had. one uh tournament obligation on the. contract. Um, so after 15, the Japanese. had seen enough footage and I got. contacted by Pride and they're like,

"Hey, we want to fly you over. we want. to um we want to have uh you as a key. piece to build this organization. So I'm. like okay. So they fly me first class. over first class hotel. I meet with um I. meet with a guy named Mr. Ishi Jaka who. uh his real name is Kim Duku. He's a. Korean guy. And uh um Mr. Ishi who owned. K1. >> Wait a minute. A Korean dude was. pretending to be Japanese.

>> You had to have a Japanese name. WA. >> You couldn't do business in Japan. without a Japanese name. >> That's crazy. So, >> he signed all of his documents. Signed. all of his documents, legal documents. Kim Duku. >> Wow. >> But every single person called him Mr. Ishi Jaka. >> Wow. So, he had to learn Japan. Japanese. >> Yeah. And it's still with an accent. because he spoke Korean, too. So, it's. just one of those where understanding. like the the culture back then just it.

was still stuck, >> you know, and hadn't really progressed. >> Wow. >> Um, so Mr. Ishi owned K1 and Mr. Jaca. started Pride and it was called KRS at. the beginning before it turned into. Dream Stage. >> Oh, >> and so here's here's where it gets a. little sticky. So, um, I go over there. I take, uh, for Pride 2, it's supposed. to be me and Hoist Gracie. Him and I I. there's still fight posters that have. signed of him and I facing off with each. other. Signed the contract to fight for.

way more money than was being probably. paid for the in the UFC. And um, when I. get back to the States, I get served. with uh, I get served with papers to. appear in court New York City. The UFC. is suing me. Um, it's when Bob Meyer. still owned it and Art Davis was. involved and so they were suing me for. breach of contract and it was like one. of those things where I was like, "Okay, I didn't, you know, like one of those. experiences where I was like, oh [ __ ].

you know, and the Japanese said, okay, we still want you. You need to sort this. out." So, it took it took four months, five months to sort out the differences. between what the UFC needed and if. they're going to let me go and all this. other stuff. In that time frame, Hoist. got hurt and so Hoist had to step out. and they put uh Bronco Sigete in there. and I end up fighting Bronco and Pride. too. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. So if everything if if everything. would have went as everything I would. have fought Hoist Gracie in the Tokyo.

Dome, him and I main event me at my. peak. Hoist still in his prime. >> Wow. That would have been insane. >> Oh my god. It would have been like. thinking about it going cuz people have. asked like who would have won? I'm like. I don't [ __ ] know. But I would have. given it every single thing I could. >> That's it. That's the poster. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Signed, inked everything. >> You had at least 80 pounds on them.

>> Oh, at least that. Yeah. >> But but this is it. This is a transition. from not knowing what I was getting into. going, I can't [ __ ] carry that much. weight at all and be cardiovascularly I. just can't do that. >> What were you at your heaviest? >> 280 285. >> Jeez. >> Like 6% body fat. >> Woo. >> Yeah, >> that's hard to breathe. >> Brutal. Like if I if I didn't [ __ ]. get a hold of you and [ __ ] squeeze. the life out of you in the first like.

couple minutes, I was [ __ ] I was. completely [ __ ] you know. >> Yeah. Well, that was kind of the case. with Coleman as well, like when he was. really really big. >> I was in the corner when he lost when I. was cornering him when he lost to Marie. Smith. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was there for. that one. That was that was a a real. game changer. >> Oh, that changed the narrative for. everything. >> cuz Maurice, what Moraurice brought to. the game was Maurice was training with. Frank Shamark at the time and so he had. extreme cardio. He was doing a lot of.

swimming. He was running hills. I mean, he was really cardiovascularly. at an elite level for an MMA fighter at. the time. >> Frank and I used to talk about heart. rate training. >> Way back when, >> like literally like functional training. and going, okay, how do how do you how. do you approach something and come up. with a formula where you can get through. a training camp and still be viable at. the end of that training camp when you. have five minute rounds? >> Mhm.

>> Right. how do you do it? There wasn't a. formula for it, >> right? >> So, Frank was like, I started doing this. heart rate training and heart rate. recovery and all this stuff. And I was. like, oh [ __ ] And then I run into these. trainers when I was in California at. Gold's Venice. Um, >> there's a guy named TR Goodman and he. was training hockey players. And hockey. players have to have that burst. recovery. Burst recovery. Wow. Very. similar cardiovascular system to. fighters. So TR took over my training. when I was in California and that was a. whole another level because I'd never.

really had the functional training. implemented the way he did. >> and that's where my weight came down. It's like I really tried to fight. between like 23. 235 and 240 was ideal. >> Yeah, that's much better. That seems. like the ideal heavyweight. >> It is. It is. No, it's it's very weird. that first of all that the heavyweight. division has a weight limit. >> Yeah, that is. >> Oh my god, it's really weird. >> Especially the UFC cuz it doesn't really.

in Japan and some other organizations, they'll allow the super heavyweight. division and in boxing you can be as. heavy as you want. Like Tyson Fury's. been 290 before, >> but when the UFC has this 265 pound. weight division, it seems like the best. elite guys are like that 240 range. That's for me that was like I knew if I. had a good training camp if I came in. 235 240 if I didn't train hard enough I. was 250. If I overtrained I was under. 230 you know like for Pride Grand Prix I.

think I weighed in at 229. >> because right before that. >> you felt overtrained. >> I felt overtrained because in between uh. when I fought Enson and the Pride Grand. Prix I did Abu Dhabi. >> Oh. And so I won my weight class that. year and I won the allaround. >> So you got super conditioned. >> Oh my god. Super conditioned. But you. you lose I lost a little bit of what I. needed was that physical dominance. >> You know, I could have the endurance,

but again, it's one of those where it's. like going into it when I fought FA, there's so many factors that were just, you know, that I didn't account for and. my calorie intake just wasn't where it. needed to be. And like a lot of times. leading up to a fight like my appetite. just diminishes as I get towards it. especially that fight week. And. >> that's interesting. Why do you think. that is? >> Uh nerves. >> Nerves. It gets to a point where it's. like that that morning I know like fight. morning I have a small little window. where I could digest food.

>> where I could take food in. It's not. like I can sit and eat all day. >> and then the nerves start kicking in. It. just starts kicking in like my like like. literally and it's controlled focus. right because it's like it can't have. all my nerves running everywhere but. it's controlled focus but that. controlled focus my body goes I don't. need digestion. >> [ __ ] I'm about to fight what the [ __ ] do. I need to digest food for. >> Right. Right. Right. >> You know. >> yeah a lot of guys have made those mist. Almaine Sterling said he made that. mistake when he first fought Poder Yan. He just he didn't eat just. >> brutal. So, so that last scene against.

Fuja as an as 100% hypoglycemic crash. laying there, can't move my body. And if. you watch the documentary, what I'm. saying on the way back is, "I need. sugar. I need sugar. I need sugar. I. that's all I could think about was like, I need sugar. I need sugar. I need. sugar." Because my blood sugar levels. had just crashed to this like I can't. [ __ ] move. >> Jeez. It's so crazy too to watch the. evolution of the training methods from. back then from 97 to like what we're.

seeing today. >> Yeah. Oh, incredible. >> It It is really extraordinary because. there's not a real another sport that. has gone through that much of a. metamorphosis. >> Not not even close really. >> in that time frame because it's a short. it's a short time frame because because. again it's asking the question of like. okay championship fight 25 minutes five. five minute rounds. >> How do you train for it? Right. Because the reality is no one can go. full blast for five five minute rounds. >> Can't do it.

>> Maybe Morab can. >> I wouldn't [ __ ] doubt that. >> He might be might be the only guy cuz he. doesn't seem to get tired. you get. So. this is this is like observationally. usually in a championship fight if it's. a striker against a wrestler usually a. first two round strikers usually have. that advantage and then third round if. you go back and watch this third round. the grappler starts to impose a little. bit more on him and then fourth fourth. and fifth round is the grappler.

completely just takes that fight over. because it's one of those things where. >> you it's that grind. >> Yes. It's that [ __ ] grind. >> A big part of being able to stuff take. you. You want some coffee? A big part of. being able to stuff takedowns is having. energy. >> Oh my god. The guy's trying to [ __ ] you. up and take you down. There's so much. energy involved in trying to stuff a. takedown. And then when you don't have. it, you're like, I'm just let him take. me down and I'll just like take a break. here and then work back to the But no, like with some guys like you're not.

getting back up. You're gonna get. elbowed in the face. >> that I'm just gonna grind you into a. pulp. And that's that control thing, right? part of part of what I I go like. if I look at my fight and go I was never. going to be the best striker like never. going to be the best kicker puncher but. if I could turn you into a wrestler. >> that's that was the secret sauce for me. >> I just need to make you wrestle me. >> and I'm good. >> right cuz I know I can [ __ ] beat the. [ __ ] out of you wrestling.

>> the key was transitioning to make you. wrestle me. >> yeah it's the specialist specialist. thing. It's like if you want to be a. specialist, being a specialist at. wrestling is by far by far. >> Well, when you see what Hamzad did to. Drius, >> oh my god, Hamza, then that's the. example. Perfect example. Elite elite. elite wrestler. >> against a world champion MMA fighter. who's been dominating everybody and. who's very difficult to take down. and. Hamza just ramped it up, kept it up. >> Attack and like I was saying that that.

Russian Dagistan, Isbekiststan, it's. this ability to sustain an attack. repeatedly. >> cuz it's that cardiovascular system born. at 6,000 ft in altitude, 7,000 ft in. altitude, little bit more of an. advantage, right? >> And so you end up with these attacks. where you can sustain them beyond your. ability to defend them. It's also having. such a technical game that as you're. implementing the first attack, you've.

already got three attacks on standby. like and then as he counters, you're. you've anticipated the counter. You have. a counter to his counter and then a. counter to his readjusting after your. counter and you're you're just hitting. him over and he just can't keep the. rhythm. >> I I literally I text my son. I was at. that fight. I text my son and go, "This. is what an elite wrestler could do to a. professional fighter. It's nuts. It's. nuts because it was like a lot of people. thought it was boring because it just. didn't get to a dec, you know, it just. went to a decision. But you just got to.

appreciate that level of dominance. against a world champion. It's kind of. crazy where the guy before the fight, Dreus was being looked at as one of the. greatest middleweights of all time. I. mean, look at what he did to all these. guys. He knocks out Robert Whitaker. He. beats out Assagna. He [ __ ] beats Sean. Strickland twice. It's like, oh my god, he might be one of the greatest of all. time. And and then after that fight, you're like, I don't think he's ever. going to beat that guy. I don't think. he's ever going to beat that guy. >> It was like, I don't think there's.

enough time in the world to bridge that. gap. >> You can't you can never catch up. You. know, like I would never pretend. stepping into the octagon that I would. be able to get elite striking skills, right? >> You know, like that gap could just it's. constantly just something you never can. get to. It's also, >> you know, it's like it's like Shawn Ali, right? >> Uhhuh. >> He's gonna The only way that he's going. to be able to get a championship back is. somebody else needs to beat. >> Morab. >> Yeah. Morab.

>> Yeah. And then it's got to be. stylistically. >> stylistically match up, right? That's. that's that conflict of match up because. skills, you're not going to do that. >> You mean he got better for the second. fight. >> He did a lot better, but still. >> So did Morab, though. That was part of. the problem. That guy's not he's not. stopping. God, how old is he? >> Morab, I think he's 34. How old is. Morab? >> Morab Dwaves Willie. >> 34. >> 34. He's 34. >> So, he's, you know, he's in his prime.

right now. In his prime for another few. years at least. >> Yeah. I I would think that it's one. where there's going to be a lot of. people that think they can, but that's. just a different animal. >> Yeah. It's going to take someone who's. that kind of a wrestler who maybe has a. striking advantage. Yeah. Who could beat. him? >> Yeah. But then, you know, >> that's an anomaly. >> It's just it's such a crazy sport to. watch that, you know, from 1994 to 20. 25. It's almost unrecognizable the.

difference in the gap. >> You can't like like there was a period. of time where I couldn't I couldn't. watch uh I didn't watch the UFC probably. about like seven, eight, nine years. And. uh over the last five, six years, I. watched it almost religiously, right? and just. realizing the fighters today. Oh my god, man. They're they hit a level and it's. that it's that mutation. It's like this. first generation, second generation and. they're advancing so fast.

>> that you're looking at these new. fighter. You're like where? Like it's. such a unique set of skills to do this. incredible set of skills unique to any. other sport in the world. I know it's. and it's also you're really fighting. three different sports as one sport, >> which is really nuts. You're fighting. grappling, you're fighting jiu-jitsu, and you're fighting striking all. together in one sport. It's like, wow. >> It's like playing soccer, football, and. baseball at the same time. It's like, how the [ __ ] would you do it?

>> Yeah. While getting kicked. >> While getting kicked while getting. kicked and punched and elbowed. It's it. is uh but without guys like you, it. would have never gotten here because if. there weren't people that were willing. to fight for very little money, travel. overseas, have these crazy events. and you know, and beat your body up and. do what you did and what Coleman did and. a lot of those guys did in the. beginning. Without you guys, there's. >> there is no UFC today. It's just not.

it's not the same. It was, you know, one. like being in the Hall of Fame and being. in the Pioneer Wing and understanding. that um like I said to myself, you know, even if I advance a sport, you know, this much, it needed this much at the. time to get to where it is today, right? Like Coleman advanced a sport this much. >> Well, you guys brought in the new. element and the new element was elite. wrestling with enormous muscles. >> Yeah. And it's like and everybody's. like, "Oh, this is a real problem.".

>> Yeah. >> And especially in the early early days. because Coleman would get on your guard. and just headbutt the [ __ ] out of you. cuz headbutts were legal. Legal. >> Yeah. Legal. >> Like and bare knuckle like when I first. did his when I I interviewed him after. he beat Dan Sever when he became the. first UFC heavyweight champion. Total. bare knuckle. He had a little bit of. tape on the on the hands try to keep the. bones from snapping in half, but that. was it. >> It's frightening. Wild. like people I I. you know they watch it now and and you.

know this this film right it it gives it. gives people a a little bit of a look. inside of like what it was. >> and and. you know for for me the. the cool part about it is understanding. like I'm like I said I'm just a little. piece but that little piece is necessary. to be able for me to watch some of the. guys do what they do now. >> Well, it's different than any other.

sport in that these little pieces had to. be there before people could figure out. what to do. >> Yeah. Well, Dana put them all together. >> Yeah. >> You know, when I when I actually talked. to him when I was in Newark, that's one. thing I said. I said, "Look what you. built.". >> You can feel however you want about, you. know, him p Look what you built. >> Yeah. >> Like no one could even imagine this. >> Well, you have to be a madman to do what. he does. Like he that guy works so hard. and he works so many hours and he. [ __ ] loves it and he loves the sport. Like truly loves the sport. He and I.

have like long conversations on the. phone. >> I would imagine. >> about fights. >> I would imagine. >> Just about like I go, "What are you. going to do about this guy?" Oh, >> when's that when's this happening? You. know, is this true? Does this guy really. get hurt? He did. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. Oh my god. >> Oh, it's minor. Okay, six weeks. Are you. rescheduling it? Okay, good. >> Yeah. you know, we have these longass. conversations. And I'll tell him about. kickboxers that I've been watching or. tell him about these guys. I mean, that's one of the ways that we became. friends. And one of the ways that I.

started working for him in the first. place is cuz we would have conversations. when I first met him when I was on Fear. Factor and I wasn't even working for the. UFC. I'd be like, "You got you watch the. fights in Japan? Do you ever watch Japan. Valudo? Do you know about this guy? Do. you know about Hicks and Gracie? Do you. know about this guy?" And I would be. just rattling off different names and he. was like, "What? What do you. >> how do you know all this?" It's my I. don't know. I don't even know the rules. to basketball. I don't know what's. happening. I know when the ball goes in. the net, it's good. I don't know the. rules to football. I don't know the. rules to anything. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I just I only have room for combat.

sports, but you know, ask me about. Marcelo Garcia. Ask me about. >> I'll rattle off some stats. I know some. [ __ ] about fighting. But to me it was. like it was a Eddie Bravo and I when we. were kids when we were young young. fellas when we we were hanging around. working out we would say to ourselves. like you know what this sport needs some. crazy billionaires who love the sport. that's just going to dump a bunch of. money cuz we knew at the time we were. like this is the most exciting sport in. the world right.

>> so all it needs is for these really rich. guys to be fans of sport and it's almost. like it manifested itself because that's. what happened the fertitas came along. And they were just really rich guys who. loved the sport and they took a crazy. chance. They were $40 million in the. hole. >> Yeah. >> 40 million in the hole on the UFC and it. was just losing money. Losing money and. they just hung in there year after year. after year until they were almost ready. to [ __ ] sell. And then they decided. to go forward with the Ultimate Fighter.

>> That's the game changer. >> That was it. That 2005 that personalized. it. That personalized it. Well, people. got to see it on Spike TV and then it. became the fights were so wild that. people were calling their friends. >> and they were saying you got to watch. this. So, as the the show is on and this. is like before social media was really a. thing. >> So, as the fight was on the the ratings. kept going up and up and up and up and. it would like Spike TV was like, "Holy.

[ __ ] we got a [ __ ] hit. We got a. hit." Yeah. >> And Diego Sanchez won the 185 lb. division. And then the fight between. Stefan Bonner and Forest Griffin. >> That's the fight that changed. everything. >> Changed the game. >> cuz that's one of those if you ask just. a marginal fan, they'll refer to that. >> Exactly. >> They'll refer to that. >> because at the time it was nobody had. ever seen anything like it. They didn't. know what MMA was. And here it is on TV. And these two guys were so evenly. matched.

>> That was the best part about it. They. both had trained together in the house. for all those [ __ ] weeks. They'd all. be talking [ __ ] to each other and all. and they knew they were going to fight. in the finals. So, it was like this long. buildup and they were perfectly matched. and it was just bang bang bang bang bang. bang [ __ ] swing wheel kick punch take. down. That's. >> I mean there's so much [ __ ] in there. That fight just went on and on and at. the end of it the whole crowd was like. >> and you know I was the one. >> I was the first person to suggest. I was.

like they both should have a [ __ ]. contract. This is crazy. >> You can't take a contract away from one. of these guys for this fight. And and. Dana to his credit gave both those guys. the contract. >> And it was all of a sudden the sport was. hot. And then Chuck Liddell was the. poster boy. Yeah. >> Because he was the perfect guy to be the. most famous champion at the time because. he was a destroyer. >> Oh god. He just seek and destroy. >> and he had an iron chin and he just and. he would just stare at you with a. [ __ ] serial killer's eyes.

>> and just when you watched him like me. watching him, he was so awkward when he. held his hands and punched. It was so. like even watching now going he was just. hunting. He was just hunting. >> and hunting and loading up. >> and he would hunt and it wasn't like. >> No, >> it was every single thing was thrown. with intent. >> Yeah. Everything was shown thrown to. shut you off. >> And he could do it and he could do it. for five [ __ ] rounds, too, which was.

crazy. >> Which is. >> in his prime. The thing about that style. is it's unsustainable. You He never. ducked a punch in his life. He took a. burning chin and [ __ ] and blasted. right through. He had an iron jaw. It. was [ __ ] iron, but everybody's iron. jaw gives out after a while. It just you. can't and you can't sustain it. It's. just one where. >> um so when the fertitas first bought the. UFC, um I was living in California and a. friend of mine who was helping me at the.

time said, "Hey, listen. Uh they're up. at Big Bear having a training camp." I'm. like, "Okay, let's go up." So get my. truck, drive up. It starts snowing. It. was like February. They're going to do. their first big push with Tito, right? >> And uh I get hit by a drunk driver at. 11:00 a.m. in the morning on the way up. >> So, uh my attorney was in the car with. us. He I literally the tow truck takes. us up to the top of the hill. Um I still. get to talk to Dana. I still get to talk. to Frank and Lorenzo. And I'm like,

"Yeah, I got hit by Driver." He's like, "Well, we're going to Beverly Hills. Wilshshire tomorrow. Why don't you just. jump in the limo with us and we'll take. you down?" I'm like, "Okay." So, I get. like this threehour drive down the. mountain with Frank and Lorenzo, the new. owners of the UFC. >> Wow. >> And we're just sitting there talking. They're they're like, "Hey, you know, how is it working in Japan?" They knew. everything about me. >> How is it working in Japan? How do they. do this? How did they do that? And it. was just this really cool conversation, really cool experience to be able to go, "Okay, maybe this has landed in the.

right spot.". >> Oh, they were the right guys. They were. the right guys because they were like. Frank and Lorenzo are rabid fans. Yeah. Like rabid. And they would train and. they would beat the [ __ ] out of each. other. And that's where they met Frank. Frank they brought Frank in to help them. to they've kind of erased Frank. So. Frank Shamrock in my opinion is one of. the all-time greats and also. one of the most important in terms of. the metamorphosis in terms of the. evolution of the sport.

>> because Frank was the first guy with. elite cardio that could do everything. He could submit you off his back like. remember when he fought Kevin Jackson an. arm bar bang first round right off his. he was elite everywhere and his cardio. was off the charts when he fought Tito. Ortiz. Tito was much bigger than him. Yeah. Not just a little bit bigger than. him. Much Frank's not a big frame guy. And Tito is a [ __ ] house, right? And. he just overwhelmed him, beat him down. with cardio. And then after that fight,

>> Tito taught everybody. Cardio is number. one. It's number one. He when he was. teaching when he was coaching on the. Ultimate Fighter, he told everybody, "It's [ __ ] cardio. Without cardio, you have nothing." thing and his cardio. was legendary, too. >> I mean, they say what fatigue makes. cowards of us all, right? >> It's true. >> Yeah, >> it's true. >> I mean, it's just one of those and. again, this goes back to what I was. saying about Frank and I having. conversations back then about. >> heart rate training. >> Mhm. >> 25 years ago, you go heart rate, what.

little polar, you know, watch and, you. know, keep and like, oh, we need to. recover this many beats in a minute, but. actively recover, right? like you had to. still continue to do [ __ ] and recover. And this is what Frank was saying. Yeah, I started doing this. I'm like, what the. [ __ ]. >> He was a very smart Well, he is a very. smart guy. And I don't know why they had. some kind of a falling out, but they but. they don't highlight him anymore. They. don't talk about him at all. And I think. >> pivotal pivotal. I think you got to let. that go just for the honor of what.

happened, the honor of the sport cuz the. for the honor of the sport when you look. at Frank like when you look at his. fights like he was elite man. He was he. was ahead of his time. He was ahead of. his time by by far. >> He was the first really truly complete. mixed martial artist. >> I agree. >> You know, and people see him like the. fight that he fought when he was. fighting in Strikeforce. You're not. seeing the same guy. You're seeing him, it's later in his life. You see when he. fought Nick Diaz, you can't It's like I.

said about goats. Yeah. >> You want to look at BJ Penn, you look at. BJ Penn when he fought Sean Sherk. Yeah. >> Look at BJ Penn when he fought Big Daddy. Stevenson. That's one of the scariest. [ __ ] guys who's ever stepped in an. octagon at 155 lbs. Period. I put him. with all of them and I don't know what. happens. And then there's Kabib. Same. same. >> You put that guy with any 155 pounder. who's ever existed and I don't know. what's going to happen. How you going to. beat that guy? You know, there's there's. a few guys like that and Kabib has to be. in that conversation, too. When you look. at his dominance over like the way he.

was winning fights, I'll never forget. when he fought Edson Barbosa. It was in. the first round and Edson had this look. in his eyes like, "Oh my god, I've got. to give you how many more rounds with. this [ __ ] cuz he was just. already exhausted." And this [ __ ]. animal from Dagistan was just on him on. him dragging him to the ground. Man, >> I'll never forget. >> we had Michael Johnson down the ground. He's beating Michael Johnson up and he's. like, "Quit, quit. You know I need title.

shot is mine. You know, title shot is. mine. You know I deserve this. Quit.". And he's just beating the [ __ ] out of. him trying to be nice. He gets him in. Kamura and I'm going, >> "Please tap." I'm like, "Please tap. Please tap." Cuz I'm seeing that spiral. fracture. When they get that spiral. fracture, I'm seeing it coming. I'm. like, "Please tap. Please." We' already. been through that with Frank. when Frank. got Minotaurro in that. Here it is. He's. talking to him. He's like, "Listen, give. me some volume. >> I need to fight for the title. You know.

I deserve this. Come on, buddy. I don't. want to have to hurt you.". >> Oh my god. >> Look at this. I mean, he's doing what. every But this is speaks to your point. See, everybody agrees. The people are. cheering. >> Look. >> I need to fight for it. >> I need to fight for it. Look at he's. he's trying to be nice to him. That's. such dominance. >> Trying to be nice to a nice guy. Like, come on. You know what the [ __ ] is going. on? And again, to his credit, he didn't.

I think he could have just [ __ ]. ripped that arm apart. He let him tap. He let him tap. I think he could have. >> he was so This is like again, we're. saying like taking somebody's [ __ ]. will. >> Taking He was a will taker. Like what he. did to Connor. >> when he got on top of Connor, he's like, "Let's talk now. Let's talk now." just. beating his face in going, "Come on, you. want to talk? Let's talk now.". >> Man, you talk about about humble pie. like [ __ ] having to sit back and like. >> Yeah, >> cuz that that's at a level where where.

cuz you're a bad [ __ ] to begin. with and somebody that's even a batter. [ __ ]. >> who just dominates you. >> just oh my god. >> just could kill you. Same size as you. and basically he could kill you if he. wanted to. You're dead. >> Yeah. >> You're not going to live. He's going to. live. He could just literally choke you. unconscious and just keep choking you. until you're. >> He was going to break his neck. He had. him in that fulcrum choke. That is such. a a nasty choke. Look, here's where he. gets it. >> So, he's getting it and he's holding on. to it. Look, >> he's not he's not doing he's not going.

all through. >> If he wanted to, he could have just. ripped off. >> Drop that right hip down, pull that left. arm up, and that thing's snapping like a. twig. It's so scary. That's my scariest. tech. Other than guys when they break. their shins. >> Yeah. When they go shin to knee and the. shin snaps in half. >> like S silver breaking instantly. >> That was horrible. Widman was the worst. >> That like that stuff I one watch is is. good enough. >> It was so when Widman. >> You don't need to pull You don't need to. pull that one. >> And We Widman's Yeah, don't pull that.

one. Weidman's went through his calf. His bones snapped through and poked out. of his calf, >> which is real dangerous too because then. you run the risk of heavy infection. >> Yeah. All of that. >> All that. You're on the dirty mat. You. got an open wound and Oh, >> no. Some of that stuff is just like. gosh, man. It's other level. >> Do you feel weird that you did it? Like. now when you look back on you've been. removed for so long, you're like, you. beat the [ __ ] out of somebody. >> I remember when you took Dan Boish down,

you stuck your chin in his eyeball. >> Oh my god, man. First and the only one. still exist is this mission by uh chin. and eyeball joke. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know if you call it joke, but. >> I had never seen anybody do that before. I'm like, that's genius. >> Yeah. You know what? It wasn't illegal. >> It wasn't illegal. >> And it I know it hurt like a. [ __ ] for him. >> Why would it be illegal? Why is it okay. to elbow the eyeball, but it's not okay. to shove your chin in there? >> Chin I don't know. >> You know, and those are the headbutt. days. So headbutts were legal. So why. wouldn't it be legal to you could chin. butt a guy if you wanted to, I guess.

>> Yeah. >> So if you you use I mean, but the thing. is it's a real weapon. >> Yeah. >> It is real. It's very effective. Like I. don't think we should poke the eyes. because you know the eyes are so. vulnerable. But that is also obviously a. real weapon. Like kung fu guys point to. that all the time. They go look these. guys are the toughest fighters in the. world. You poke them in the eyes and. they're [ __ ]. >> They're right. >> Yeah. The absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean I don't know how good you are at. eye poking. You have to be pretty. [ __ ] accurate. That's not something. you can count on. >> No. No.

>> Yeah. Here it is. >> Yeah. >> You shoved your [ __ ] chip right in. his eyeball. He's just like, >> and I know. So So when I'm down there, you could I could hear him like, [ __ ]. that hurt. >> Oh, it was horrible, dude. It was. horrible. But it's again, it speaks to. what we were talking about, the the. dominance of elite wrestling and how. elite wrestling, it surpasses all. martial arts. It's the number one most. and an elite wrestler can learn. jiu-jitsu, okay? An elite grappler can, you could easily teach them how to do.

head and arm chokes, triangles, all. that. That's not you're already used to. manipulating. >> So part So part of um my participation. ADCC was was to represent wrestling, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Cuz the first year when I got approached. to go over there, I'm like I like what. is it? Like submission grappling like um. like Gilas grappling or gearless. jiu-jitsu. They're like, "Hey, listen. Here's what we're going to do. We're. going to give you X, you know, come. over.". >> And it wasn't a ton. It was like $15,000.

to go over. >> and I was like, "Uh, okay." I was like, "All right." Like, "Fuck, I don't know.". But. >> while you were fighting? >> Yeah. While I was while I was fighting. And so I'm like, "Okay." I just go. >> just as a source of surprise. >> It was one of those where I was like, "Okay." Now that it's explained to me, I. go, "Well, wrestlers need to be. represented there, >> right?". >> Yes. And so I go over there and it was. one of those things where it's like, well, I can actually show everybody here. in this world that thinks their shit's.

dominant. Like, no, >> this is a skill set you need. You need. elite wrestling skills, right? You can. have jiu-jitsu, black belt, and all this. stuff, but if you're missing this piece. component to it, you're [ __ ]. >> You're [ __ ] You're [ __ ]. >> And so, it was all about control. Did. you see um the most recent fight with uh. Mauricio Rufi? >> No. >> Okay. So, Mauricio Rufi, who is one of. the most dynamic strikers in the sport, he's literally like a big Connor. I.

mean, it doesn't make sense that he's in. the same weight class as Connor cuz I. think he's 6'1. >> Oh, >> but he's real tall. He's at least 6 feet. tall. He's real tall and long and just. elite striker. But he fought this cat. Benoisand Deni who is a judo black belt. elite on the ground super [ __ ] strong. and he just dominated him man. He got a. hold of him ragdalled him got him to the. ground and Mauricio had his moments in. the fight standing because. >> Benois Santene is a French special. forces guy. He's a hard [ __ ] and.

so he did stand with Mauricio for a. little bit but he got dinged up a little. bit but once he got him to the ground it. was just full domination and then it. left everybody in this position where we. were looking at Mauricio Rufi as being. like that guy's a future world champion. to like oh no like that gap's too wide. >> Yeah. >> Like he's got to learn so much to be. competitive with the elite now they're. going to know. >> Yeah. imagine like Camaro in his prime. >> No, forget it. Yeah, that's that gap we.

were talking about. Like you can't. there's no way to [ __ ] make that up. There's no there's not enough time in. your career. >> Well, we got to see that Kamar was like. 38 now. Okay. And he just fought Buckley. and dominated him. Dom and Buckley is. another one who is this guy who is. dominating everybody at 170. He just. knocked out Wonderboy and we're like. this [ __ ] guy might be the one. Yeah. And then all a sudden, 38-year-old. Kamaro Usman shows how [ __ ] important. wrestling is. It's everything. It's. everything.

>> because you can be defensively. responsible. Like he's very defensively. responsible standing, you know, other. than the Leon Edwards kick. He very. rarely gets cracked. Yeah. You know, Gilbert got him a little and dropped. him, but very rarely gets in trouble. standing. >> But once he gets you, the gap is so big. You can't make it out. >> The gap's so big. Yeah, that's, you. know, and again, this is this is one of. these things where fundamentally also. wrestling gives you a cardio base that. you can build off of. Not only not only.

because that's the other missing. component, right? >> It's like this. >> because at an elite level, it's [ __ ]. intense. >> It is really intense. Like Kurt, when he. was on your show, he's talking about, yeah, I trained till exhaustion and then. I trained. >> Yeah. You know, it's like that's how he. cuz at one point when Kurt and I were. competing against each other like 93 94, I just I just was bigger, stronger, and. and I could just defend his attacks. >> He won the Olympics with a broken neck. >> Yeah. [ __ ] man.

>> With a broken neck. >> Come on. >> With a broken neck. I was there at. nationals when when he literally hit the. mat and I'm like like literally I. watched when he when his neck broke at. freestyle nationals and he got hit with. an arm spin and he gets arm thrown and. his head gets almost like separated. It. was nasty. And and I'm in the stands. going, "Oh [ __ ] he's not going to be in. the trials." Like there's no [ __ ] way. he's going to be in the trials. And sure. enough, [ __ ] like five weeks later, he's in the trials. I'm like, "What the.

[ __ ] man? There's no way he should be. [ __ ] able to wrestle. >> that there are guys like that in the. world." And people need to know. You. need to know there's levels to. everything. And there's levels to mental. strength. There's levels to guys who. just will go and it's really kind of a. crying shame. Uh it's Look, he had an. amazing career in WWE. He's loved by. everyone. Everybody loves him. >> That's great. But it's kind of sucks. that people don't know like at at real.

wrestling. >> that guy was the [ __ ]. >> Oh my god, man. >> He was the [ __ ]. >> He was so good and small for a. heavyweight. >> He was so so he was always undersized. >> Yeah. >> But the like the years that I beat him. and then 95 when we wrestled in the. freestyle nationals and I had beat him. four four times in a row at that point. So we we wrestle in the 95 freestyle. nationals and I get a hold of him for. the first time and something was.

different. I was like, "Oh fuck." Like. wrestling going, "Oh man, something's. different with Kurt." And he ends up. beating me and then in the freestyle. nationals in 95. And I'm like, "Oh. fuck." There was just something. different. I'm like, cuz he he could. stay on an attack longer. Stay on an. attack longer. He was stronger. He hit a. gear that I didn't [ __ ] have. Wow. Like I go, "Oh, fuck." Like looking back. on them going, "Oh [ __ ] I totally. missed that." Like most guys at at 220.

pounds, which you're wrestling at, they. they would have these attacks that they. would initiate. It's like grab a hold of. you, hold on to you, and then initiate. an attack. Kurt was constantly probing. and attacking and attacking, >> which was the benefit of being lighter. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Lighter and quicker. Lighter and. quicker, >> but still wicked strong. >> Oh my god. he could still get in. And so. it was these attacks that he just. sustained and he just wear you out of. position. So it just counts and attack. attack and all of a sudden it was just. this little little angle that he was.

hunting for the whole time and then he. hits that attack and [ __ ] takes you. down. You're like [ __ ]. Like what the [ __ ] It's just there's. levels of of drive. There's levels of. discipline. There's levels of will. >> There's levels of wanting something. And. that's what scares people. I think. that's why people get really terrified. of of like truly special athletes. because they don't want to know how lazy. they really are. >> I think it's one of the things that. drives people nuts about seeing like.

some insanely disciplined like elite top. of the food chain grappler or striker or. whatever it is. >> MMA fighter because it's like you don't. want to know that someone's willing to. work that much harder than you are than. you ever have. >> Than you ever have at anything at. anything. [ __ ] That's I mean Kurt Kurt. was one of the where where he opened my. eyes. I was like, >> "Fuck, there's there's another gear. I. thought I was training [ __ ] hard.". That's what's crazy is we're kind of. seeing we we've had this conversation.

recently in regards to Morab because. we're saying, "Okay, is Morab just. physically gifted?" Because I think Kane. had a a some sort of a genetic advantage. with cardio because DC would talk about. how he would take three months off and. come back in the gym and [ __ ] everybody. up with with like. >> cardio. Somebody that size it's an. anomaly anomaly. It's an anomaly. >> But Morab swears that when he was young. he had bad cardio. He said no I I smoke. cigaraba.

smoking cigarettes. >> He said he didn't take care of himself. at all. I'm like really? And he it's. just hard work and discipline. And then. so I have a bunch of friends who do. hundred mileers, you know, and uh you. know, I'm real good friends with my. friend Cam Haynes. >> And Cam Haynes, he just did a 100 mileer. like two weeks before we went elk. hunting. Like he does 100 mileers all. the time. He's done a 240. He's what is. the the Bigfoot 240? Is that what it is? He's done a bunch of these through the.

mountains with thousands of feet of. elevation and decline. He's done a bunch. of these that are 200 plus miles. >> God, that's not. >> And you got to build up to that, but. once you get to that, you if you're. sustaining it, you can do those things. So, he does those things on a regular. basis. He does multiple ones a year. So, that didn't you didn't used to think. that that was possible. They used to say. that if you ran a marathon, like you. were destroyed for like two weeks. No, >> he was running a marathon a day while he.

worked a full-time job. So he was. getting up in the morning at dark. He. was running 13 miles. He was going to. work. He during his lunchtime he would. eat. After lunch after work he runs. another 13 [ __ ] miles. >> He would be one where I I wouldn't want. to look at him cuz I think I'm lazy. >> That's the thing. That's why there's a. thing about like I think I'm lazy and I. love him. He's my friends but I think. I'm lazy when I when I like watch what. he's doing. And then Gogggins is another. one. >> Oh my god. Gogggins is even more insane.

because he ain't doing it for nothing. He's not preparing for elk hunting. He. rarely even competes in races, but yet. he's doing the a level of cardio where. he brings world champions like Israel. Adosana comes to train with him and he's. throwing up in a bucket. He can't keep. up. And Gogggins is 50. >> Oh my god. >> He's 50. >> Wow. >> How old is Gogggins? >> 50. >> 50. 50. >> Oh my god. And he's got two terrible. knees. >> Oh my god. >> He's had many knee surgeries. His knees.

are destroyed and he does not give a. [ __ ] He forces them to work. >> Golly. So that So again, this is like. that's a level which is just. exceptional. >> Yeah, >> cuz there's just a weird level. >> It It is cuz that's a pocket. It's just. a pocket of people that have that. >> There's only a handful. There's only a. handful like that guy because it's not. just that. He broke the world record. chin-up competition once. Like he's he's. done a he's done a ton of things that. are just like physically insane.

>> You know, he was a smoke jumper. He. didn't even tell anybody about it. He. did it just cuz it was hard. This is why he's famous. So while he was. famous, they'd take him up in a. helicopter and he [ __ ] parachute him. to fight forest fires. >> because it was hard to do. >> Yeah. >> I'm not [ __ ] you, man. He sent me a. photo once. He text me a photo of a. grizzly bear track. >> and he goes, "We just landed near this.". >> I mean, it's a [ __ ] track like that. big and he's out there with a backpack.

and a [ __ ] shovel shovel fighting. fires and only because it's hard. >> He's a multi-millionaire. >> Oh my god. >> He's a multi-millionaire who's getting. parachuted to fight fires. And here's. the thing, man. If I didn't talk about. it and maybe I'm out of school, people. wouldn't even know. >> You have to know that. Maybe he doesn't. want people to know. They need to know. that. That's [ __ ] insane. >> That is beyond insane. That's like one. of those where it's like, you know, the. wiring that exists in him.

>> It It doesn't happen by chance. That's. that's that's you have this genetic. ability. >> But he was fat when he was young and he. was lazy. He was drinking milkshakes. He. talks about it openly. He said the first. time he decided to enlist when he went. like to to run to go running, he. couldn't even run around the block. >> He was totally out of shape. He's got he. has photos of it. He shows you he's like. this is like no I made myself this. So. this is my thinking about fighting. Like. >> have we just accepted that you can't. really fight full blast for five five.

minute rounds. >> or is it that no one has built. themselves up to a level where you can. like when you were talking about how. Kurt hit a new gear or the gear that. Morab is clearly on right now or Hamza. There's there's that gear. What what if. like we're going to push that even. further where there's guys that can. sprint for five five minute like there's. a few flyweights that can do that. >> like Pantoia can kind of sprint for five. fiveinut. >> rounds go you can go so they'll.

eventually be. >> a fighter that can do that. >> yeah that's what I'm thinking too. >> and because it's just one where where. like I was saying from where I started. from 25 years ago and the training. methods and how archaic they were and. how little knowledge was out there right. >> now knowledge is advancing at such a. rapid rate and they're understanding how. to recover. They're understanding all. these different factors that just. weren't there. >> Yeah. And if you add in a bunch of stuff. like hyperaric chambers, so if these. guys have access to hyperbaric chambers. and and training with uh hypoxic.

chambers and [ __ ] like that, there's. >> there's levels and levels and levels. that can be reached. It's you just have. to be a complete [ __ ] psycho and go. through all the levels. >> Yeah. and get. >> like Donkey Kong. >> Yeah. Like me all your food, all your. electrolytes, everything throughout the. day. Have your sleep environment. perfect. Wear a mask. >> I'm telling you, there's guys out there. that'll do it. >> There's guys that'll do it. They'll do. it. >> Well, they have to if that's where you. get the edge, right?

>> Yeah. I mean, it's becoming it's. becoming to a point now where the. financial benefit is worth the. sacrifice, right? >> Yes. >> That you'll end up going, "Okay.". Because what what started happen when I. was fighting is that once the financial. piece started getting in there, it. started attracting more talent. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So that talent, it brings the level of. everybody up. >> Yeah. >> And then all of a sudden it's like a. little bit more money. Talent that could. have maybe went and did something else, they're going, "No, I'm going to go do.

this because I can make money.". >> Yeah. This is the thing, right? If. you're a young kid and you're really. good at baseball, but you also like. jiu-jitsu and MMA and you, you know, have an amateur fight maybe and you're. thinking about what you're going to do. with your career. >> You could be so rich playing baseball. >> You could be so rich. If you're really. good at baseball, you can be rich as. [ __ ] and nobody's trying to kill you. >> Yeah. >> Nobody's trying to beat you over the. head with elbows. Nobody's taking you. down in front of everybody and. humiliating you. Well, [ __ ] this. Let's. play ball, dude.

>> Seriously. Seriously, I [ __ ] play. baseball in a heartbeat, man. >> [ __ ] yeah. So, that's the problem with. MMA is like you hear like, "What is it. to fight in the UFC? Like, what is the. bottom scale? >> What's like the lowest contract that you. can get in the UFC in 2020?" And this is. not even saying they deserve more. because this is just how the sport. works. Yeah. And and it's way better in. the UFC, by the way, than it is in. boxing. When you watch a a boxing card, most of the money's at the top. There's. there's very little spread out. There's. guys that fight in the UFC undercard.

that make excellent money, but when you. first start, you don't. I think it's. like 10. >> It's one of those things where it's. like, would I expect to like start at. Microsoft, right, and going, "Yeah, I. get a million dollars a year." [ __ ] no. You work your way into, and that's one. of one of the things about the sport. As. long as it has the opportunity to let. somebody grow into it, >> you know, and still gives them financial. incentive to grow into it. Right. >> Right. And just one more. It's like I. wouldn't expect like hey I'm a good. fighter. Pay me a million dollars. It's.

like well that's not how it [ __ ]. works. >> No I wouldn't say a million dollars but. wouldn't you say like let's make this. argument. Wouldn't you think that for. young struggling fighters if they got. paid more for fights they could put. together better camps? They could. >> They could get better recovery and. nutrition, have less stress. Yeah. >> And be able to perform better. So it. would make the product better. So here. here's where here's where my career. transitioned. I call it internally. funded. My first four fights I was using.

that money to get to the next fight to. get to the next fight to get the next. fight. Then all of a sudden I get in. Japan. >> and they pay me enough money for the one. fight that the next day I woke up and I. was a professional fighter because it. was the only thing I had to do was train. as a fighter. What was the biggest check. you got in Japan? >> Uh, a little over half a million. >> Damn. Back then that was cash.

>> Yeah. [ __ ]. >> How did you get it out of the country, >> dude? That was How did you get out? >> So, here's here's here's here's what's. [ __ ] up about it, right? So, so my. first couple times over there, I'm like, I put like first time I I got. >> I put 40 something,000 in one cowboy. boot with the two socks. I put 40,000 in. the other cowboy boot with the two. socks. I'm serious because it it was. straight out of the [ __ ] cartoons how. you got paid cuz the next day you would. go up to a room and and you literally. would have a room you'd have an adjacent.

room usually Japanese guys in black. suits smoking and then you'd have this. room which is where you get paid. They. had these you know suitcases that had. your pay. You could choose your. currency, right? I'm getting paid in. American dollars. So they have your. contract slide your contract over and. they go, "Okay, this you get paid. This. is the dollar amount." blah blah blah. And they would literally take it out, count it, you would sign on it, and then. they would just hand you the cash. First. time they ever did that, I'm like, it's. $150,000 in cash. And I'm like, [ __ ].

I'm like, I'll be right back. I go to. the to the bedroom that's it's in the. hotel room and I grab the [ __ ]. case to the pillow and I go over and I. [ __ ] scrape the [ __ ] money, put it. in the pillowcase, dude, and I go, "Okay, thank you." And just [ __ ] go. head out. I don't know what to [ __ ]. do, you know? I'm like down I'm like. down in the elevator like [ __ ]. holding the money like [ __ ] I don't. know what to [ __ ] do. >> 50 grand in a pillowcase like what to.

[ __ ] do. >> Big giant guy with 15 grand. >> That does not look good. >> No. No, it does not, man. It's It's like. >> What did they expect you to do with it? They give you any advice on how to get. it out of the country? >> Oh, no. No. That was not That was It was. your responsibility. Oh my god. >> So literally I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] man." I. get on it and like in my head I'm. playing all these movies, right? Like on. this movie he got caught at the border, you know? I'm like, "Fuck." You know, I. know that's going to be this one. You. know, it's like, so I end up [ __ ].

just going, "Oh, cowboy boots, tube. socks, like [ __ ] 40 grand in one. boot, 40 grand in the other, put it in a. [ __ ] and like walk and like, you got. anything to declare?" No. just like walk. through but realizing that eventually. when I claim money um they you hand a. claim form they go okay you claim. 140,000 say okay thank you have a good. day. >> oh you just have to claim it. >> you have to claim it cuz they want to. send it they want to send that receipt. to the IRS. >> oh okay.

>> so when you go through customs. >> I thought it was just a function of not. being able to take that much cash in. >> so when you declare it when you declare. it there's that situation too right but. when you. >> everybody's going to Where did you get. going to have a belly? >> Yeah, exactly. >> I guess back then could you even goo No, you couldn't even like YouTube yourself. >> Oh, no. There was. >> You could say, "Look, this is me, man. I. just won this. Look, aren't I awesome?". >> Exactly. This is how I really did win, >> right? Back then it was hard to get,

man. >> God, you know what? The the example. example I give is like the corner video. store. >> next to the shutters that where all the. porn was right next to that was the VHS. tape. >> Everybody can hear it when you went. through you dirty pervert. >> You got to go see faces of death. That's. it. >> Faces of death. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That was right. Literally those. were where the UFC tapes were. Those. were the pride tapes were. >> I remember I remember I was living in.

Hollywood. I just moved there. It was. 94. It was when UFC 2 was available on. VHS. Yeah. >> So, I had heard about UFC 1, but I. didn't see it. And then UFC 2 I saw on. tape. I rented it from like some one of. those video stores and I was like, "Holy. [ __ ] they did it.". >> I couldn't believe. I'm like, "Holy. [ __ ] they did it." Because this was. always this was always the dream. This. was literally Bruce Lee's conversation. Bruce Lee's conversation. Well, I mean. his whole he was the first guy to be.

>> completely outside of the norm in terms. of like sticking to your style. Yeah. >> Because that you were like a traitor if. you left certain kung fu styles or. certain karate styles. >> He was the first guy to say no use. what's useful. Put it all together. >> Judo Gene Leel he got with he got with. Chuck Norris. He got with all these. other that was the first thing like like. the symbols of kanji for a dragon, right? Bruce Lee was enter the dragon, right? dragon is all these parts to make.

one mythical thing. >> and that's that enter the dragon that's. that Bruce Lee was the first one if. people don't realize it he was the first. one to go [ __ ] this is incomplete. >> exactly and so fortuitous that he ran. into judo gene label. >> and cuz I think once you grapple with. that guy you're like oh my god I'm. [ __ ] helpless. >> and then it's just like oh this is super. important you know cuz like Jean was one. of the first guys to ever have like a. mixed fight so there was a guy was a. boxer and he had a judo ghee on and he.

chases the guy and gets the guy into a. grappling exchange and then strangles. him. >> But he had like a boxer versus You never. saw that? >> No. >> See if you can find it, Jamie. I want to. say it's in the. >> So way backs. >> So this is going to be way back when. way back when he was. >> So this is Mark Coleman and I did a. clinic in North Carolina that was a judo. gene label clinic that he brought us in. for.

>> What year is this? 63. >> Oh my god. So Milo Savage. So uh the. boxer looks like he's Okay, I remembered. it wrong. The boxer's bare knuckle and. uh he made him wear a judo ghee though. which I would have said [ __ ] you. I'm. not wearing this ghee. He probably. doesn't understand that that's a weapon. for. >> Oh my god, it's an extra set of hands. >> We didn't see him take him down. >> Oh, that's just. >> Did they show him taking him down? >> Oh my god. >> Oh, don't skip through. I'm going to see. the technique cuz once he grabs right.

here it is. So Milo throws a That's it. So once Jean's got a hold of It's over. >> I mean, you don't know what that even. feels like until you feel it. >> Oh my god. So I So I ruled with Higan. Machado and uh Oh my god, >> he's just putting him to sleep with a. collar choke here. >> Oh my god, that was just brutal. >> Yeah, he's mangling them. >> Oh my god, >> he's just mangling him. This poor guy. >> Oh my god. >> And Jean is his style was very very. brutal.

>> Oh my god. >> Like he had uh a very almost like catch. wrestling style base submission. He had a a lot of like very very painful. moves that he would do on you. >> Oh my god. You imagine just not. understanding what you're agreeing to. >> No, he just got choked unconscious. No, you I mean you you can't know until it. happens. I mean I don't know how much. cross trainining people did. I bet he. probably thought I was just going to go. in there and use my boxing and I'll [ __ ]. him up. >> Oh my gosh.

>> Yeah. It's just you you don't know until. you know and then you go wow. But it's. just it's so wild that even at the. highest levels like at the wrestle that. the level that you were wrestling at, a. guy like Kurt Angle can go, "Well, let's. take it up another notch. >> Another notch, man.". >> And that's the crazy part. You always. find like like me being a fan of MMA and. UFC and watching it, there's there's. always an outlier, right? >> Always. >> Always an outlier that you go, "That. doesn't make sense. How the [ __ ] is he.

getting to there?". >> Yep. Yeah. >> Right. And that's like, >> [ __ ] he's just found a new way to do. it. He's found a new gear. He's found a. new, you know, way to just go, okay, this is this is what I'm going to do. >> It's like a David Gogggins thing, I'm. just going to run 125 miles. Yeah. >> Yeah. And to be able to maintain that. drive, that's what's the probably one of. the hardest things cuz you you have to. have almost no rest and you're. maintaining an insane drive for years. and years and years while sharks are.

nipping at your ankles. They're all coming up. >> Yeah. All chasing you. >> All chasing. All. >> chasing. Yeah. >> And everybody's scary. >> Well, I used to tell my [ __ ] training. partner, I go, "Fuck the getting there.". That's one thing. [ __ ] staying there. That's the secret. >> Yeah. >> That's the [ __ ] It's so hard to stay. at that level because everybody else is. building on your your experience, right? >> They're going, "Well, this is what he. did. This is what he's incorporated. These are the things he's doing. You.

know, I'm just going to build on it.". >> Yeah. You know, >> there's some weird rules to this fight. that they had agreed upon, too. And Gene. Leel said that Savage had brass knuckles. in his gloves. >> Oh. >> Oh, what? >> Yeah. I start reading like uh here the. rules. He couldn't punch or tackle or. sorry, he couldn't kick or tackle him. and in exchange for that, Savage offered. to wear a judogi. >> A judge. >> Oh, sorry. Oh, that's how they wrote a. >> Yeah. No, it's a judo. >> That's That's a new outfit. said he.

wrote a karate one instead cuz they. didn't know the difference. >> Okay. So in the parent belief that label. was a karatika. >> So. >> that's interesting. So he made a rule. that uh that Jean couldn't kick him. >> So cuz he thought that he was going to. use he couldn't tackle him and he. couldn't take him. So kid attemp t t t t. t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t. t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t tackles. or takedowns under the waist? >> Ooh. So, you had to only hip toss them. or only drag him to the ground.

Everything had to be above waist. That's. kind of silly. >> Yeah, it's really silly because it's one. of those things where it's like It's. like Greco. >> Yeah. >> They're doing like bet. >> Yeah. >> A $1,000 bet. >> Yeah. To anyone who could prove that a. boxer would be beat by a martial artist, I think, in a straight fight. >> Wow. >> This is way ahead of it. >> I wonder Yeah. I wonder if the brass. knuckles thing is true. >> Yeah. I don't I'll try to look that up. According to Lebell and other sad. [ __ ] Gene Leel. >> ahead of his time again. >> and again that fortuitous meeting him.

and Bruce Lee getting together where. Bruce Lee was like you know the most. famous martial artist on earth the guys. who's turning people on to martial arts. had the most open mind and had this. philosophy of using everything that's. useful and then meets this guy. It's. like. >> oh here it is. >> Yeah. >> He would have loved MMA. >> Oh my god. He would have [ __ ] totally. jazzed on it. >> Oh my god. He'd be at every fight. >> Yeah, that's one of those things where. where, you know, again, it's just. somebody being ahead of their time.

>> Way. Yeah. Way ahead of his time. But. not just that, but like the first guy. that became a world famous martial arts. person. Like there was no real world. famous martial arts people before Bruce. >> Lee. >> You mean you'd had to be into martial. arts to know to know martial arts? >> Yeah. But Bruce Lee, like everybody knew. Bruce Lee. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Changed martial like igniting martial. arts all over the world. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those.

things where I look back on it and I've. read like part of part of the history. and stuff and you understand it. obviously way better than I do, but you. know, like ahead of his time, just like. when Gracie came along, ahead of his. time, you know, and in presenting. something where he's knocking down all. these stereotypes. >> Yeah. And they had rigid stereotypes. back then where you'd have you'd have to. like get in gang fights to protect the. the style that you were. >> Do you know do you know like like so I. started training at Beverly Hills. Jiu-Jitsu Club right in California and I.

remember that spot. >> So so so uh so boss would have me boss. would have me out there Alvi Rubin is. the guy that owned it and I would go out. there and I would teach wrestling a. couple days out of the week. It's how I. got introduced to Boss Olear of Marco. Huas and Pedro. They were training out. of there as well. So, you would get. these guys, uh, jiu-jitsu guys that. would sit on the outside, wait until the. other students were gone, draw all the. blinds, lock the doors, and go, "Can you. teach us wrestling?".

>> Wow. >> Because they were so afraid that if they. got caught there with me, it was like a. traitor. >> Oh, that's hilarious. >> Yeah, >> that's hilarious. >> So, you would get like. >> That's so crazy. It it was one of It. didn't make any sense to me because you. would figure sharing information would. be better. >> Yeah. >> And it was like no no no no no. jiu-jitsu. We're not sharing [ __ ] We're. not you can't participate. You can't. It. was so [ __ ] archaic like like the.

outlook and it's like like looking back. on it going like. >> wow that's dogma. That's like this like. Yeah. >> They didn't all have that though. >> No they didn't. They didn't. There some. guys who were open to teaching people. everything, but there was definitely. some schools for a while that were. holding back techniques. >> 100%. >> Like I remember when Hoist Gracie, one. of my friends said that when Hoist. Gracie uh caught Dan Severn in a. triangle. >> that uh he asked his instructor to show. it to him, he's like, "You're not ready.

for that. I'm not going to show you. that." Like why would you just show him. something that works? >> I reround that tape probably 50 times. and I still can I'm like, "What the [ __ ]. is he doing?" Like what the [ __ ] is he. doing? Like you could figure it out. Like what the [ __ ] is he doing? Cuz all. of a sudden Severn goes from beating the. [ __ ] out of him going he's [ __ ]. tapping out. >> Yeah. Nuts. We couldn't believe it. >> I didn't I didn't know there was a name. for it. >> You could submit a guy off your back. >> Yeah. Like what the [ __ ]. >> Like what? But if you look at it like.

the space where he had Dan's head and. arm is like that big. >> Yeah. >> It's like that [ __ ] Like when you when. you do a triangle like this going, "That's not a very big space.". >> It's like to have [ __ ] Dan because. he's a big dude going, "Oh, I get it.". >> And your legs, you can hold your legs in. place for a long time. Your legs carry. you around all day. >> Oh, that's like. >> Especially if you actually get that foot. under the knee where it's like really. locked in. It's not pressing on the end. of your foot. >> You could hold on to that [ __ ] for a. long time. >> Oh my god. And then he's like pulling on. the [ __ ] I'm like, "What the fuck?".

>> Nuts. Changed everybody. like, "Oh my. god, you could win off your back.". >> It it literally I'm I still remember to. this day just looking at it with my. mouth hanging open going, "Oh, fuck.". >> I think it was one of the things that. made MMA so popular because Hoist wasn't. a big like he didn't look like you, right? It's like if you were dominating. everybody, it would be like Jesus, look. at him. >> But Hoist was just looked like an. athlete. Just like a thin he was 175. lbs. >> God, which is so crazy. So, you know.

what's a good I had a conversation with. Hoist probably about four or five years. ago and I'd never spoken with him. outside of a competition or event or. anything like that. I cried. He's such a. good person. >> Oh, he's a great guy. He's a great guy. >> Like he was so just like talking to him. and he was just so powerful and so. inspirational and just having this. conversation with him was just just like. amazing. I was just left the. conversation, hung the phone about.

going, "Wow, what a what a just an. amazing human being.". >> Yeah, he's a. >> he's a really good guy. >> and the most important guy ever in terms. of like the spread of MMA. He's the most. important guy ever. >> Oh, prolific. >> Cuz he's the guy when he won the first. one and you looked the way he did it, everybody's like that guy. >> Yeah. >> And everyone was like, "What's he. doing?" Yeah. >> No one knew what it was. What is this. stuff he's doing to these people? the. thing. >> changed everything and made everybody. instead because it like it it went from. this idea that it was uh just the most.

brutal person would win. It was the tank. abbots like but no no no there's this. one guy and he's doing everything with. technique and he's not physically. imposing at all. >> and he's handsome. >> It didn't make Yeah, he's good looking. handsome fella. >> and he wears that fancy ghee thing, you. know, he's a bad [ __ ] and he's choking. everybody out. But it's God, it was. incredible. >> Watching that for the first time, I like. literally it was like, "Oh, this is. [ __ ] new." Yeah. >> Like this is I've cuz you've never seen.

it before. >> No, nothing like it. And then this the. sport explodes. But the sport was. getting [ __ ] so hard back then by all. these organizations that didn't want it. ever to become sanctioned. >> Yeah. Like cuz boxing was very. threatened by it and they had businesses. with people and then there was there was. so much [ __ ] they kept it like it it. was out of New York until like 10 years. ago. >> So we were we were on um me and my. brother we were on our way to see uh a.

UFC event in New York and it got. cancelled and it got moved down south. >> Yes. To Dothan, Alabama. Yes. UFC 12. >> Yeah. We were on our way. We were on our. way to go see it. >> Uh I was on my way to work at it. >> Oh my god. >> That was the first one I was going to. work at. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. And it got moved. >> Yeah. Got moved. And so. >> New York was like, "Nope. >> Nope. Ain't having it. Ain't having it. Ain't happening.". >> Well, they they kept it out for the. longest time though. There was the guy. who took who was really fighting to keep.

the UFC out of New York eventually got. he got brought up on corruption charges. >> No. >> No. >> Shocker. But it was like it had more to. do with like unions and the fact that. Zufa who owned it they also owned hotels. >> and didn't have unions. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> So there was a lot. >> a lot going on. Lot. >> you know I went you know I went to the. first sanctioned uh the UFC flew me out. to go to in New Jersey when they had. their main main main card in New Jersey.

their first big event that was. sanctioned by the New Jersey Boxing. Commission uh with Tito and um they flew. me out to that event. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. Flew me out to that event. And actually this is this is at the time. uh they offered me to fight uh after. that they offered me to fight Pete. Williams. >> Oh. And it was one of those where they. go, "Yeah, we're offered to fight Pete. Williams. You might have to take a. little bit of pay cut, but you have to. believe in what we're doing." And I'm. like, "Okay, what's the bake out?".

They're like, "We'll give you like an. appearance fee of like 15 grand. >> to fight. >> to fight. >> 15 grand. >> to show up and then it would be doubled. if I won." And I'm like, I'm making, you. know, a lot more in Japan. Like, why. would I go do it? Like, why? >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's a terrible offer. >> Yeah. It was bad. >> That's one of the worst offers I've ever. heard. And it's one where where the. whole idea behind it would be, hey, we. just if you believe in us and you.

believe in the direction you're going, look, we just got sanctioned in New. Jersey, right? >> Yeah. >> So, so that's the the the the steps. we're taking to move this to Vegas and. to do this and and one is like, you. know, like most fighters, it's like I. have X amount of fights and I don't have. more, >> right? >> Right. I only have X. So, that would. have been one off my X number, right? >> And I'm like, oh man, I can't do it. And. they only ask once. at that time. The UFC was like, "We're. gonna ask once and that's it.".

>> Okay. Yeah. Was that. >> just leaving that alone? Just leave that. one alone. >> That one's one of like, "Okay, why not? Why not ask me a second time? Aren't we. negotiating?". >> I don't know. >> Um, if you if you were at Pride then, right? So, like what what year are we. talking about? >> Uh, 2002. >> Okay. So, this was in the UFC was still. hemorrhaging money. >> Yeah. And that crazy money is still. >> Oh gosh, man. It should have failed. >> It could have. >> I mean, one is they didn't have Yeah. If.

anybody else Yeah. >> That's crazy. They had no idea how much. money you were getting in Japan. >> Oh, they had no clue. They had no clue. >> So, you know what's crazy with Japan? Here's what I ended up doing. I said, "Listen, I said they said, 'What do you. need?" And I said, "I need consistency.". >> And they go, "Okay, what does that look. like?" And I said, "Pay me x per month. and then every time I fight, pay me a. bonus on top of that." And they go, >> "Okay, how much do you need?" And I. said, "Okay, I need this amount per. month." And they go, "Okay.".

>> And that was just another stabilizing. thing where I knew that every month I. had x amount of dollars coming in. >> that I could pay my bills, I could do my. stuff, not worry about that because it. allowed me to transition to like it's. not a hobby, >> you know? I'm not like fighting and then. I go to work, you know? It's like this. is what I do for a living. >> Yeah. That that was the the point of. thinking about money investment like by. giving them more money and they'd get. better camps. Wouldn't you think the.

product would be better? >> Yeah. >> I mean, I don't like to think of people. as products, but it but the show the. program. >> the program that you're now I guess you. don't have to pay for it. You're gonna. just pay for the subscription to. Paramount, which is pretty badass. >> Yeah. where you don't have to pay for a. pay-per-view every time. But, you know, if they had more money, they'd be able. to do a better camp. They'd be in better. shape. The fight all the way around. >> They they'd be better recovered. They. have better nutrition. >> It's it it's investing in what your.

product is. And your product is is elite. athletes. Elite athletes. In order to. get elite athletes, they need funding, >> right? >> They need tools. The only way they can. get tools is through money. you know, better coaches, better recovery. facilities, better and and I don't know. the the. >> you know, I obviously. >> Let me ask you this. If you're if you. were like looking like say if your son. wanted to start fighting or someone. wanted to look to you, would you if you. were giving a young fighter advice, would you say go right into the UFC or.

would you say no? The best case scenario. is go into another organization like the. PFL, build build your style up. Yeah. build it up on maybe a slow little. slightly lower level of competition, although not necessarily. >> Yeah. >> Still elite guys. >> Submission grappling. >> That's I literally I go you you. fundamentally you need to build a base. of what you what you're going to become, right? So submission grappc if a young.

kid like 16 17 year old kid even 18 19. 20-y old kid I go you need submission. grappling because you can participate in. those at a competitive level that. teaches you how to compete it teaches. you how to prepare to compete right. >> and it teaches you without the impact of. striking and punching and all of this. So that's like the first foundational. piece and this is just my opinion right. foundationally is like if you you have. to have uh a mechanism out there which.

allows you to compete without having the. physical impact that fighting does. So. that would be the first thing like. submission grappling ADCC stuff you know. all of that really teaches you how to. compete to train to compete and it. starts building that base and then you. start adding pieces in going okay I. understand this let's add the striking. components into it now and let's do. these little like PFLs or let's do this. let's do that and it just allows you to. build out something where you're not.

just thrown into the fire because that. [ __ ] doesn't work. I mean, the fighters. have become so good now that you can't. just throw somebody in there because it. [ __ ] you get [ __ ] up. It might [ __ ]. your confidence up and you know, I just. I'm done. I ain't ever doing this. >> Yeah, you could definitely reach an. opponent that you shouldn't be reaching. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. >> I wonder that if you also if you build. yourself up in another organization, then obviously you have at least a name. >> and the hardcore fans know who you are.

So like like uh Reer Derritter is. another example. Okay, >> who's uh elite right now. I can't I say. middleweight, but I can't believe he's. really a middleweight. He's so [ __ ]. big, but he's a fantastic grappler, but. he was already a champion in one. So, he's a champion in 1FC FC. And then when. he comes over to America and he starts. fighting for the UFC, people are already. hyped for him. So, he's like immediately. getting tossed in there with Kevin. Holland, immediately getting tossed in. there with like very elite fighters. And.

so like maybe there's a a an argument. for if you were like managing a fighter. saying like don't just if you if you. fight well in the UFC, you might be. three fights in in the waters that you. really can't swim in. >> Yeah. >> Cuz the the level gets high very fast. >> It does. It does. >> Like maybe you'd be better off getting a. a few years in at a different level of. competition to really tighten your. skills up and make sure that when you. finally do, >> you see, you've been bringside for this.

You see when a young fighter when he. clicks and he gets it. >> and he understands how to compete at. that level, it's brilliant. >> It's amazing. >> Like watching it, you're like, "Oh my. god, he's it like. >> he's in there. >> Oh my god." It like gives me goosebumps. to think about it because it's that. moments that I can look at and go, "Oh. fuck.". >> And you know, it's a beautiful creation. It's like the a testament to the amount. of hours worked. like you know it better. than anybody alive. When you see someone.

perform at like a super elite. championship level, you go, you know how. hard that [ __ ] had to work to. get to what you're seeing right now. >> It's it's even and this just brought. this up uh just as a thing like DJ. playing me in the movie. >> You just don't get there. >> Right. Right. >> It doesn't happen by magic. Right. That's [ __ ] work. >> That's work. Oh my god. >> He became you. Like he got all of your. mannerisms down. Like down. Not like an. assimile, a faximile, brother. Like.

creepy down. >> Like he like he even said he [ __ ]. walks like me. He even got my little. [ __ ] walk. I'm like. >> he didn't get to walk like you, man. >> I'm like where like where do you hire a. walk coach? >> Well, the crazy thing is like that story. was made for him. That it was made for. him because you have to be that big to. sell that. >> Yeah. And you can't get that big that. quick. It should take you forever. >> No, we So, we were talking about this. the other day uh with DJ is that like. there's like uh you know through the.

history of like you know movie making. there's been actors that have like I'm. getting big and they go eat you know Ben. and Jerry's ice cream. >> and then there's like watching the whole. transition of what DJ was doing and how. he's like well I just don't need to be. big because that's one thing I need to. be big but put on quality of what I'm. doing. And so it's these fast twitch. It's like a wrestler. Fast twitch. fibers. You look at him and go, "Oh. [ __ ] he just didn't get big. He put on. specific muscle for what he was doing, >> you know, and to be able to go through.

everything and understand going, he. secluded himself. He literally locked. himself away uh for 11 weeks up in. Vancouver and didn't bring his family. up, which I guess he normally does, and. just went through his training camp. >> Jesus.". >> Like going like going, "Fuck." Okay. you. know, like every day, same routine. Get. up, do the same routine, do this. I was. up there for Fight Week, got all of his. stunt guys all like this is this is. foundationally because I'm not going to. teach him wrestling, 25 years of. wrestling in [ __ ] a month, right? Or.

two weeks or a week or an hour. It's. like, okay, but let's get foundational. pieces, right? Because the people are. going to watch it. They can look at the. film and tell whether you put the work. in or not, >> right? Especially someone like you. >> Oh god, man. It was one where where that. was the biggest deal uh for Benny is to. be able to shoot these scenes without a. stunt double. >> going how because because it just. detracts from what he's trying to do as. a filmmaker. >> How do you shoot this whole entire well?

Well well I'm going to give DJ. foundational pieces of like changing. your level for a double. Here's where. you get and like certain foundational. pieces you have to have and then like I. told them once you get to a certain. point everything from that point on is. your own. It's like when you watch. wrestlers going, "Oh, he changes his. level." And then all these little. nuances, that's individual. That's. individualized. Like Michael Jordan, it's like a the structure for a jump. shot's the same. Right. But all these. little nuances of like how to get to the. position to hit a jump shot. That's.

Michael Jordan. >> Right. Right. >> So I go like a like when I shoot a. double leg, like lowering your level, that's foundational, fundamental, right? It's like attacking without my arms out. in tight. That's fundamental. But once I. hit the person with with the attack, right, double egg, everything from that. point going on is my own. Whether I tip. him this way, tilt them this way, run. them forward, run him backwards, sit. down, change, it's all these little. nuance. I go, we need to do foundational. and then you're good.

>> So, so it was a lot of work for him to. get to that foundational point. And uh. once he got there, it's like, okay, you're good. >> It looked very realistic. The fight. scenes were excellent. Yeah, it. >> was like really well done to the point. where it looked like the historical. fight. >> Yeah, they did. And again, this is. Benny, you know, just like him and how. he wanted to shoot it. And. >> I really appreciate that because it's. like that's hard to do. It's hard to. hard to really capture. Like you watch a. documentary or a docu drama rather on a. person's real life when that person's a.

famous person like yourself and I've. seen you compete for decades. I'm like, I've seen it. I I remember those fights. They got it. They got it real close, man. To the point like, wow. >> Yeah, >> this is uh it's really well done. And it. also like it looks realistic. It doesn't. look, you know, sometimes fights look a. little corny. >> Oh my god. That was the one thing we're. talking about going there's always going. to be a space for a Rocky fight, right? I literally. >> nothing wrong with Rocky. >> Nothing wrong at all. But that's not the.

film they were shooting. like this is how do we create something. >> that pays homage to. >> and something you can build off of and. somebody can look at it and go oh wow. >> I think it's important if we're talking. about Rocky though we have to say Rocky. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 whatever the [ __ ] you. got to Rocky one was real. >> oh my god I I literally I remember being. in the theater and literally watch it. and just like as a kid. >> Yeah. >> watching it and like. >> I I wanted to Rocky,

>> dude. I drank a raw egg and I ran around. the block as soon as I got home. >> Oh, yeah. 100 [ __ ] percent. I mean, you're like, that's. >> you're like, "Holy [ __ ] that was a. great movie.". >> And they tried to push him out. He. didn't They didn't want him to play the. lead. >> Who wrote that movie? >> Oh my god. He won an Oscar for that, right? >> It was amazing. It's a great movie. And. it's a weird movie. It's a weird movie. >> It is. It is cuz that that's that's the. classic underdog. >> Yeah. overachiever, you know, but he.

doesn't win. >> There are guys like that, man. And. that's what's crazy. There's guys that. like are hyper [ __ ] talented, but for. whatever reason, they just never. >> Buster Douglas. >> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. >> Buster Douglas. Buster Douglas got it. together for one fight against Mike. Tyson and pieced him up. >> and did it artistically. >> Yeah. >> He was was hitting it with a jab. followed by a left hook. Just whap wap. And it was beautiful. the movement. >> Wasn't that in Tokyo? >> I believe it was.

>> Yeah. Tokyo Dome. >> Yeah, I believe you're right. Yeah, >> that was one of the craziest. >> Yeah. >> I I'll never forget that. I'll never. forget that. >> Because his mom had died. >> Yeah. >> And he just got it together for this one. fight, man. >> Wow. >> And if this one fight showed everybody. what he had, it was amazing. >> Never to be repeated. >> Never. And then Holyfield knocked him. out in the next fight. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Gosh damn. But like that one. fight, man, he got it together and you. go, "Wow.". >> So there's guys like that out there that.

that are supremely talented, but for. whatever reason, they just never. sustain, never can keep it together. >> It's a mental thing. >> It has. >> I mean, all of it is, right? I mean, just like like you're saying, like the. like the outliers, it's a mental thing. that they have that a a level or a gear. they can get to that everybody else just. can't. It it has to be or there's. there's got to be something something. they're doing that's so different and. everybody's trying to figure it out like. what is he doing? Yeah. >> What is and it seems to boil down to.

almost always dedication. It's like, how. dedicated are you to it? And are you so. dedicated that you're really willing to. objectively look at what you do good and. what you not so good and and and change. that and fix it and and really tighten. down your diet and really like get. religious with your supplements. >> That's that that's the ability um to be. able to be just have this. self-perspective, right? this this. in-depth honesty because a lot of it.

like I I literally before Chris. Campbell, right, I was just talking. about I thought I was training [ __ ]. hard. >> I thought I [ __ ] I thought like I'm. training [ __ ] hard and he just. grabbed me by the hand. He goes, "No, let let me show you what hard is.". Right? And so it was this routine where. it's like in college, my senior year, 6:00 a.m. I get up, he would pick me up. and I wouldn't be a minute late. I had a. chair that I put next to the door that I. slept in for the last because one time.

being late he just throttled me and I'm. like it ain't never happen again. It. ain't [ __ ] ever happen again, man. It's slept in the chair. Slept in the. chair next to the door, you know? It' be. like all right [ __ ] cuz he would just. give two beeps. Beep beep. And you like, "All right, I'm up." You know, and. [ __ ] out the front door. We go to the. gym. We would train in the morning. So. we' do wrestling drills, stuff like. that. And then we could do cardio or. strength. He would go to work. He was a. full-time attorney. He'd go to work all. day. I would start practicing with the. the wrestling team, warm up, and then.

I'd wait for him to get off of work five. o'clock, and then we'd train for a. couple hours and then get up and repeat. But it's this level of intensity with. everything had intention. There wasn't. anything that was left without intent, >> right? >> You know, from how we drilled, how we. trained, everything was very focused and. intentional. There wasn't anything like. I'm going to do this today. You know, it's like no, no, no, no, no. Everything. has intention. This is why you're doing. this. This is why you're doing that.

This is why you're doing this. >> And that's the difference. >> That's the difference. It's this. intention of every single thing you're. doing has this intention for an end. purpose. >> You know who Gordon Ryan is, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's Gordon's belt up there. When. Gordon trains 365 days a year, >> Yeah. He he doesn't take any days off. unless he's injured. And if he's. injured, he'll still be on the mats. watching. >> He watches everybody. He says, "I'm. still thinking about jiu-jitsu.". >> That's intention.

>> And it's not just training like hard. sparring. It's going over technique, going over counters, tape study, >> all day. >> And that's that is somebody who's living. their life intentional, right? Everything has a end purpose. >> Everything. >> And it's why he's been able to do what. he's been able to do. I mean, I've. looked at it going, if he existed when I. was doing ADC, I would have never won, >> you know, because it's just a it's just. a different level. And and that's that's. a skill set I had wrestling, but he's.

got a skill set that incorporates that. plus 20 things more. >> And it's nuts because he gives away the. formula. He's like, no one's willing to. do it. No. >> He's like, and he just says it with. confidence. He he goes, "Uh, I put out. all my videos out there for free. you're. going to watch. >> Isn't that [ __ ] funny, though? >> I mean, he put he puts techniques up all. the time and shows you how to do stuff. And he sells DVDs still. He makes. millions just selling instructions cuz. that's how much he knows about. jiu-jitsu. >> Oh my gosh.

>> And he's only 30. >> Yeah. >> And he's Everybody considers him the. greatest of all time. >> You know what's crazy? It's funny this. brought this up. So, so when uh DJ and I. connected again in 2023 when this got. kicked off that green light for the. film, he sends me this picture of. Panther. videos, Panther uh martial arts, seek. and destroy videos that I did that are. in a VHS tape. He's got like 10 of them. in the picture, right? And it's Mark. Kerr seek and destroy. Benny had found.

them and sent them to DJ and he's like, "Study him." So, so, so it's this. videotape series that I did for Panther. Production. Here it is, Sam. >> So, this is one of these things. Oh my. god. >> Fighting techniques. >> Yep. And so, so DJ sends me this picture. and it was [ __ ] I was literally like, "Okay, I'm in.". >> Dude, look at the size of you. You look. like a superhero. >> Oh, dude. I had such This is I call I.

call it phone I call it phone booth. fighting, right? Like I like and like I. could in a very small space I could. generate a [ __ ] [ __ ] ton of power. >> Oh dude, you were a freak. >> [ __ ] ton of power. >> You were a legitimate freak. And I. remember like watching you fight the. first time. I was like that's going to. be a real problem. >> Like that's going to be a real problem. >> What do you do with that? It's one thing. that you're giant, but it's also that. you got elite wrestling skills on top of. that. Like [ __ ] yeah. This this might be.

a problem. Yeah. Oh my god. All these. dudes in karate geese are like, "God. damn it.". >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. They're like, "Phil, I'm turning in my ghee.". >> And then the ghee, the the problem with. the ghee is they can anyone can grab it. >> Yeah. >> You know, it makes wrestling even easier. if you like if you allowed the ghee. still, I think there'd probably be a few. people that get choked out, but. >> also a lot of people get taken down a. lot easier. >> Yeah. So, even so, >> because you can grab the ghee, >> Hig Machado, Hig Machado, I've rolled. with him, right? uh Jean John and Higan.

and Higan it was like giving him an. extra set of hands. >> Yeah. >> I I go dude I literally So the So in. Torrance when I trained with him there. was like uh there was one room and then. another room and there was a door. between them and so he had half of his. class kind of all stacked up in the door. watching us train and it was like five. minutes with a ghee and I just looked at. Higgin I go I ain't never [ __ ]. wearing this thing again. See here, take the ghee off, man. [ __ ] here. Have it back. Cuz it's.

like, [ __ ] It's. >> It's a weapon. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah, it's a weapon. Especially a guy. who's got really good collar chokes. Those guys are terrifying. They get that. thumb behind your neck and you're like, "Oh, Christ.". >> It was like he was getting me in. position. He would tie up an arm like. with a ghee and I'd be like, "Fuck.". Now, now he's got like like what the. [ __ ] dude. >> It's a totally different thing. You have. to really be aware of grips and pos and. you got to you can't explode your way. out of stuff. That's the That's what the. argument for the ghee is defensively. >> that you have to get out of every.

position with technique. You can't just. pull your arm out. Your arm's stuck. So, you have to figure out the right way to. do this. Yeah. Where you don't expose. yourself because they have too much. friction. >> It's been a minute since I've been I'm. like no friction. >> You I mean you literally it's all. friction. I mean it's like you no slip. It's. >> Yeah, it's a problem if you have one. But the thing Eddie Bravo always used to. say, "Why would you want to train in. that for MMA though?". >> He's like, "That would be crazy. That. would be like saying if you play.

raetball, you're going to be better at. tennis." No, play tennis. You have to. play tennis at an elite level. You. should be all your grip should be based. on control of the body, gable grips and. >> Yeah. All that. >> under hooks and over hooks and like you. can't there because that's the one thing. that we saw with a lot of jiu-jitsu guys. in the early days. They were so used to. grabbing collars and grabbing sleeves. that when they went to the ground they. lost 30% of their game. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's again that's the. evolution of it's why like. foundationally gheeless grappling right.

because it just teaches you. fundamentally what you're about to do if. you're going to get in MMA. Yes. >> Right. >> For sure. >> Foundationally it's like that's where. you need to start. >> Yeah. I think so. you know, it cuts even. to the point where it's like you cuz you. have a lot of wrestling in there and you. have a lot of moves. Um, like my first. times at Abu Dhabi, I ke the only thing. I kept saying small moves, small moves, small moves. Like I didn't like like I. literally if I felt uncomfortable was. these small tiny moves, you know? It. wasn't this like explosion because it's.

like [ __ ] I don't know what I'm going. to explode into, >> right? Right. >> You know, so it's foundationally it's. it's Yeah. GES are. >> it's a different sport. It's a totally. different sport, but I think there's. something to be gained from cross. trainining with the ghee. I think the. ghee is like it's a fun thing to do. And. in most street fights, the realistic. thing is you're going to be wearing. clothes and especially if you're. fighting in a place that has a where. people are wearing winter coats. >> Oh god. >> Oh my god. That'll be amazing. So much. stuff. >> So many things to choose from. So much.

control available. >> But for the if you if you really ever. wanted to think about competing, I would. say just go right into wrestling. wrestling and jiu-jitsu. Learn that. stuff first. That's foundational. >> You have to. >> God, man. I can't believe you've been. involved in this this long, Joe. >> I know. It's so long. >> I mean, you're a spectator to history. >> I know. I know. I feel super lucky. Incredibly fortunate. You know what I. felt the most fortunate. >> during CO because everything was locked. down. You couldn't do anything, but the. UFC was still putting on shows and you'd.

get tested and you'd have to get tested. when you got there if everyone was. wearing a mask until you sit down next. to each other. But we were in the Apex. Center and I got to watch like world. championship fights with no audience. I. was like, "This is crazy." And there's. only one of maybe maybe there's a. hundred people in the whole room that. are getting to watch these fights. >> Like when we saw Stipe fight and Francis. beat him for the world title, there was. no one in that room, man. >> Wow. >> It's crazy to watch. If you watch it.

today, it's such a weird video because. it's an elite performance by Francis in. his prime where he's like seek and. destroy going after Steve and patient. >> You know, it's when DC started calling. him patient Francis and dude, there's no. crowd and it's kind of eerie. >> Wow. >> It's eerie. >> cuz when he KOs him and he start you. hear people go whoa you like it's like. people are kind of freaked out. >> Wow. >> That's that's unique. It's very unique. And I was like, "Wow, there's so few.

people that get to be here.". >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. >> While this fight is happening, >> like when Justin Gagey fought Tony. Ferguson, we were in an empty arena. >> Wow. >> The arena was completely empty. It was. only the UFC crew and only the people. that were working around with the with. the UFC. Oh my god. >> There was no crowd. >> Wow. >> And if you watch that today, it's. bizarre. >> Oh my god. So, I even thought like my. first fights in Japan, how quiet the. crowd was, >> but not that quiet.

>> There was no one there. The Justin Gagey. Tony Ferguson fight, there might have. been a I don't know 100 people, 200. people in the whole [ __ ] arena. >> It was nuts. It was like totally quiet. >> So spooky. >> It was It was eerie because you the you. heard the slaps of the of the punches. and kicks way different. >> Oh, I bet. because there's no no people. cheering because there's always people. cheering. Yeah. It's always this. background noise the UFC like. >> Yeah. >> And you hear thuds and stuff and I hear.

a little better than most people cuz I'm. wearing the headphones and the. microphones are in the. >> but you don't hear it like you hear it. when there's an empty arena. >> There's an empty arena. You hear the. thud. >> I need to go back and watch that to see. if I can. >> of shin hitting me that. >> So that's so I've sat there with with a. group of people that like watching. somebody check a kick in here. Shin on. shin. >> and just me nobody in the room getting. it but me going. >> oh je like. >> I don't care like I don't care that.

[ __ ] hurt. >> I don't care. >> You can poker face that [ __ ] all you. want. >> Oh dude, it [ __ ] hurt. That's like a. big [ __ ] you. Like I know that hurt, dude. I know that hurt. I know that. hurt, >> man. I mean the the co times were dark. times but it did make me feel very. fortunate to be working for the UFC. because to be there live as a you know a. person who's like just loved this sport. since it first started to be there live. while those fights were going on like. this is nuts. >> That is just one of those where you know.

again money can't buy that. I mean, it's. just one of those experiences like like. I've had a couple through this process. of film making. >> where it's like. >> no money on earth could buy that. experience like in Venice standing there. like literally like I'm crying because. like I said it was at the end of that it. was like therapy watch watching me and. and literally settling into like wow. >> man I was a dick. >> you know I just was really hard on. everybody around me and then having. Benny next to me DJ next to me feeling.

their emotions and feeling and DJ's. emotions cuz they had never experienced. anything like it either, >> you know. >> Well, I think anybody trying to do what. you were trying to do is got to be a bit. of a dick. >> I don't think I don't think as nice as. you were and you were always super. friendly. There's. >> you're doing something that's really. insane. You know, you're you're you're. cage fighting for a living in front of. the world in your underwear. >> Yeah. Oh my god. I tell people it's hot. pants. I go [ __ ] I'm in hot pants.

You want to know the truth? It's like an. hot pants, you know? >> I mean, you were a s a human superhero. built like a human superhero and you're. fighting for who the [ __ ] expects you to. be normal? >> No, they do though. That's one where I'm. like I'm like, "No, I was a selfish, self-absorbed." And I look at it, I go, "Okay, all right. I can accept that and. and understand I was trying to raise. everybody up.". >> And if you couldn't get with a [ __ ]. program, I didn't have patience for you. Well, you had gone through like what you. were talking about these camps and you. had gone through the kind of training.

that's required to reach the level that. you were reached that you had reached. You know that you know what's in there. for everybody and people that don't want. to come aboard. You get mad at them. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. It's like you're going to hold me. back. >> Yeah. And that's part that's part of it. like understanding like. >> like I just didn't have patience for it. because I didn't have time. I didn't. have time for it. Right. Yeah, >> it's understanding like like I know that. X I only have X amount of [ __ ] fights. in me and I got to try to maximize and. that's not going to work,

>> you know, cuz a lot of that was. assembling people that were accountable. to me, right? And and you know, money. can hold people accountable in a certain. degree, but at a certain point it's. like, you know, the training partners I. had around me, um it was like, hey, I. can help you get to the next level, >> right? That was kind of the enticement. >> Yeah. >> You just need to make a commitment to. me. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Make a commitment to me and I'll. give you that little piece that you're.

missing, >> you know? And that was kind of the the. the part that I helped, you know, go, okay, my training partners, be. accountable to me and and I'll help you. with that little missing piece of how to. be your professional, you know? And so I. just didn't have patience. I didn't have. patience. And it's one where I'm nice, I'm cordial, all this other stuff. But, you know, at the end of the day, I was. like I was demanding. >> Do you think that maybe that that kind. of drive played a factor in you having. an issue with substances?

>> Yeah. >> Cuz you just wanted relief. >> Yeah. >> Maybe relief from the mindset. >> Yeah. I, you know, part of it was that. um, you know, you almost like I almost. buy into the [ __ ] and I can never be. this perfect being that I was trying to. be and so I'm always falling short. and. that feeling of always falling short and. this. >> just like, you know, I couldn't live up. to what I thought I needed to live up. to, >> right? >> And so that was hiding and, you know, I'm just going to get a little relief. from it. You know, it's going to so I.

can unplug, >> right? >> You know, and it was just one of those. where it started with pain, you know, realistically, it started like a [ __ ]. I'm doing something that inherently I'm. going to have pain. >> Yeah. you know, and it was this. progression from that of like, you know, from pain to I didn't know what an. opiate addiction was. >> Yeah. In all fairness, I think we should. tell people uh to back when this was all. going on, the opiate epidemic had not. occurred yet. >> Yeah. >> And people did not know. >> And they were also telling a lot of.

people when they were taking these pain. medications that they were not. addictive, >> not addictive. >> And they Yeah. They argued it in court. They argued in court that it was not. addictive. Oh my god. which is really. crazy. >> which I didn't well [ __ ] I didn't. understand like I didn't understand like. when I took it to the level that I took. it when I stopped tried to stop I didn't. understand what being dope sick was I. didn't understand like getting like. physically sick because I don't have the. substance in my body like I would get. diarrhea I couldn't walk from here to.

the end of the room without having to. sit down for a half hour. >> It's almost like a parasite. >> It is. It's almost like a parasite that. needs you to keep feeding it to stay. alive because like how else could. getting poison out of your body be bad. >> Yeah. >> How nuts is that? >> Yeah. >> That you want it bad. You want to get. it. You want to get the poison back in. you. Like what kind of weird. >> biological mechanism is that? The crazy. part is the first recognition of like. that I'm stuck that I don't know the.

answer of like because I'm caught. between, you know, like, all right, I'm. going through this physical withdrawal. and everything else that comes with it. or I'm just going to go seek the thing. that's causing the physical withdrawal. because it makes me feel better, >> you know? So, you're caught in this loop. of just [ __ ] right? >> And then you go, I'll just have a. little. >> Yeah, just just that's it. I just need. to feel better just a little bit. And. you know, so it's one of those where. it's like there wasn't the internet back. then. I couldn't [ __ ] get on and. like, oh, let's Google something, you.

know? It's like, wasn't that. >> how did you figure out that when did you. realize like I've got a problem? >> Um, God, man. Well, I always from probably age 14. >> Really? >> Yeah. I knew I knew when I first drank. first had a drink that I drank until I. was drunk. Like cuz that was this taste of Jack. Daniels and it was like, "Oh, this feels.

good.". It was like not a normal reaction. >> looking back on it going, "Oh." So I've. always had a propensity towards it. And. then, you know, it functions both ways. because I get addicted to the sport. I. get addicted to the routine. I get. addicted to getting in a ring and taking. someone's will. I get addicted to the. crowd, the championship, the agilations, the this. It's like that's who I am, right? >> And it's a it's a contributor to my. success, but it's also a contributor to.

my to my demise, >> you know, in both ways. It's like, >> you know, from an early age, I. understood like, hey, you know, this. could be a problem, you know. And then. when wrestling came along, I didn't. drink during wrestling. Like during that. whole season I didn't drink, you know, in college I didn't drink during. wrestling season. Like when you know. when it's like, okay, you know, I'm in. recovery. I have seven years of sobriety. now. And congratulations. Yeah. I mean, it's it's for me it's it's one of those. foundational things of like, oh, that's.

what I've been missing my whole life. >> Yeah. >> And you keep repeating that term for a. good reason. Foundational is everything, right? Like having like like morals and. ethics, that's foundational. having your. health that's foundational. >> Yeah. I mean, because it's one of those. where understanding like. >> like those are the building blocks cuz. if I don't have those things in place, nothing else [ __ ] stands up, >> right? Of course. >> You know, I mean, it it sounds like the. duh. >> No, but it's an important thing to.

reiterate because everybody should hear. it, >> you know, and. >> it's a huge part. It's a huge part. >> It's it with most things in life. Most. things in life, you have to have. structure. Some kind of structure, >> you know, figuring out like my son, what. like what makes him function? Structure. >> He He's told me this. He goes, "You. should have been harder on me." I'm. like, "Fuck." I'm like, "Okay." I'm. like, "All right. I didn't I didn't. know.". >> That's hilarious. I didn't know. >> I'm going to give you four stars, Dad. >> Yeah. >> I could have g you.

>> I could have given you five, but you. weren't [ __ ] honest. >> That's hilarious. Yeah, >> but he functions best with structure. He's just one of those individuals that. are built like that, right? >> Well, I think part of that he's got to. probably have seen what you did and. genetics and. >> there's there's like some learned memory. in there probably. >> I think so. I would think so. >> I think there is. I don't think we. totally understand where personalities. come from. It's a mixture of like. >> god spirits and. >> hormones and genetics and where you are.

born and what part of the [ __ ] moon's. facing this way. >> Oh my god. Yeah. I always wondered if. that shit's real. >> Oh my gosh. It's like, yeah, well, Jupiter's orbiting around my Saturn and. >> I always wonder like, why are they so. into this? Is there something to this? Because if there is, I I would feel real. stupid if I was ignoring it the whole. time. >> You know what? Um, listening to Joe. Despensza, some of his stuff. >> It changed my whole it it's changed some. of my perspective of how like just. having um we're energy, right? were.

energy and your your emotional energy is. transferred to me. >> It's like why I was addicted to Dawn. because of that exchange of negative. energy, right? Back and forth. It's like. being an addict, right? >> I'm addicted to the drama. >> You're also addicted to making up. >> Yeah. That's the other one. >> cuz that's a feel good, too. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Sometimes people want to get in fights. just so Hell yeah. I mean, it's the. whole process of that [ __ ] up [ __ ]. It's all [ __ ] up. >> It's called fun.

Oh my god. >> What do you hate fight? >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. So it's it's that really. [ __ ] up part of like understanding. like looking back on it going, "Oh [ __ ]. >> bro." When you guys were fighting in the. movie right before you were about to. fight Fuffchion, it. >> Oh my god, >> it is such a crazy scene. It's really. well done, man. >> Oh my god. It's really well done. >> It It's It's how Emily flips that switch. of like, "Fuck you, [ __ ] You. Well, you wanted me to come." It's like, oh my god. It's like, [ __ ] That's what.

does it every [ __ ] time. >> It's amazing. >> Like that little like, >> oh god, I guess they did when I heard. come [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> It's amazing. >> It's so realistic. I mean, they nailed it. They really. nailed it. How weird is it for you to to. watch like a segment of your life be. recreated. >> in a movie? Is it sur I mean. >> it's it's so surreal. I've used I've. like I haven't found another word to. explain, >> right? Seems like there's not a word. that they figured out for that one. >> There's not. Cuz it's just one where.

it's like, you know what? On the other. side of it, and this is just me going, you know what? I'm grateful. I I have a. sense of humility. I have a sense of. just being like deep profound gratitude. that DJ, Emily, Benny, everybody. involved in the film wanted to take this. on. >> Yeah. Like because I looked at it going like a. lot of it self-worth going you really. want to do a movie about my life about. me like what the [ __ ] like. >> really and then understanding like what.

they see in me and the belief they have. in the story and everything that's. around it because at the end of it it's. redemption. >> It's like where I am today. I'm so. thankful that I have my health. I'm so. thankful that I have my sobriety. I'm so. thankful that I get to experience these. things and share, you know, my. experience, strength, and hope they call. it, right? You know, with other people. and give them going, look, look at all. the [ __ ] [ __ ] I went through and.

I'm on the other side of it, you know. So, whatever you're going through, anything's possible. >> Yeah. >> Anything. Truly. I mean, and the thing. about what you did is that, like I said, I thought it was so brave that you did. it publicly when you did the Smatching. Machine documentary. And I was thinking. like, >> did you were you happy that you were. getting on film? So, like maybe this. like would make you get clean. Was there. any of that? Ooh, there's a little bit. of that cuz part of it is that I didn't.

I didn't at that point the only person. on the planet that knew what I was doing. was Dawn, >> right? Nobody else on the planet knew. what I was doing. >> And so when John had put the camera down. and he's he's like, "Dude, what the [ __ ]. are you doing? Like you're not being. truthful with us." And I'm like, "Well, at that moment I could have went, "Fuck. you. Get the [ __ ] out of my house. You're done filming." And there was this. there was this moment where it was like. I needed to tell somebody and I go,

"Okay, like here's what I've been. doing." And I don't know who to tell. I. don't know how to tell it. I'm just. going to show you. And that's when it. shows me shooting up. It was that moment. where I'm like, "You want to know what. I'm doing? Well, I'm I'm going to show. you.". Because it was one of those where it's. like it felt like a weight got lifted, >> right? Like all of a sudden it's just. like, "Oh, fuck.". >> Did you ever think about not going. through with the documentary? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So here here's what they ended up doing. So I didn't see one stitch of footage at. all until I saw the complete documentary. in Los Angeles at Dolby Sound Studios. So it was like a couple of years. >> Wow. >> Not a second of footage. So, I sit down. the documentary as it appeared on HBO, right? And the filmmakers aren't. watching the [ __ ] film. They're. watching me watch the film,

>> right? There's like eight of us in the. in the movie theater. I get the film's. done, lights come up, and I literally. stand up and John Greenhaul goes, "What. do you think?" And I go, "I'm gonna have. to get back with you." And I just walk. straight out. Don't say another [ __ ]. word. get in my truck, start driving. Back then the phones, you know, like in. the car. He's calling me on the phone. and I'm and he goes, "You're gonna be. okay." I go, "I have no [ __ ] clue. I. don't know. I I honestly don't know.". Cuz the the agreement we had in place.

was I had I had final veto over the. content of it. >> But he never showed you the content. >> until that day I saw it in the Dolby. Sound Studios in in Los Angeles. The. content, the the whole film, I didn't. see any of it until that moment. So literally I drove home and John was. like uh. what I go I I you have to give me a day. You have to [ __ ] give me a day. I I. just [ __ ] I I said I don't know. I don't.

know if I can go forward with that. I. don't think I can. I don't think I can. It's just too [ __ ] much. >> Okay. So you did have the power to veto. at that. >> Yeah, I did. I did. At the at the very. >> What made you decide not to? Um. John had said something to me like um I. guess it's like a a parable where it's. like if you live your life and you've. saved one person's life, you've had a. worthy life. Meaning that if somebody. watches this and sees your struggles.

that you gone through and sees the hope. that you have in that and your recovery, it gives them hope or gives them because. what keeps you addicted is shame. >> The shame of what I was doing. It kept. me kept me quiet. I didn't [ __ ] it. Who. the [ __ ] am I going to tell? >> Right. Right. You don't you don't want. them to know. >> No, you don't want them to know. I'm. like, [ __ ] no. And so that shame is what. usually keeps people. But if they see me.

and the film go through this process and. this deep revealing process of what was. going on with me, it gives them an. opportunity to go, well, I I can I can. ask for help, too. >> When you got through the film, how long. did it take you to get clean? Um, I got clean off of off of off of. morphine, off of the new bane I was. doing. um right after all the way.

through the Volcanin or all the way. through the Fuja fight and I was clean. for started drinking which is a whole. another topic but you know I had done. narcotics in. you know probably like three years after. that and then I started up again and. then it's was this process of like start. stop start stop start stop stop and then. the thing that predominantly dominated. me was alcohol. >> because it's socially acceptable, easily. accessible, you know, all these.

different factors. Yeah. >> Of it. And so that's eventually, like. I've like I've said, uh my so my mom. passed away September 3rd um 1996. And uh so my son knows this. And so my. sobriety date September 4th. And so my son asked me that day, September 3rd, he's like, "Dad, I know. you needed to drink today, uh, cuz your. mom died, uh, but would you stop.

tomorrow?". And at the time, I thought it was just. another empty promise of like, "Yeah, yeah, I'll I'll stop. I'll stop." And. next day, I got up and there's just. something a little different or whatever. it was that day. And I stopped asking. the questions why because it's. irrelevant, right? Um, and from that day till today, I'm. sober. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Makes no [ __ ] sense. >> But it does. It's like you get better at. sobriety just like you get better at all.

other things in life. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> You get better at figuring out why. And. you know, there's also the reality that. I think a lot of people need to take. into consideration when it comes to. fighting is that uh a lot of guys are. they're self diagnosing or or or. selfdispensing. something to make themselves feel better. because they've taken a lot of damage. >> Oh yeah. >> And they feel like [ __ ] And that's. alcohol is a big one. A big contributing. factor. A lot of a lot of former. fighters become alcoholics.

>> Cocaine's another one. Yeah. Because. it's one of those where I thought I I. literally woke up, Joe, and this is no. [ __ ] Like waking up going, "Okay, I. don't know what's wrong with me, but. there's something [ __ ] wrong." Like, "There's something wrong with me." And. understanding like all this different. stuff, head trauma and all these. different things and factors. I I. literally thought I was like going off. the deep end. Like I was like, "Okay, alcohol or drugs was the only relief I. got for what the [ __ ] was going on in my. head." So the thing what did it was it.

past a specific fight? >> Um it was it was literally towards it. was after 2006. It's like 2006 2007 2008. I stopped fighting in 2009. I didn't. know what else to do. All my identity. was tied up in being a fighter, you. know, and understanding like these. simple words of like fighting is what I. did. It's not who I am, >> right? >> I'm much more than that, right? I'm much. more than a fighter. and understanding. once I got to that point, you know, it's.

like that's when some of the relief came. in. But part of it my head like there's. something [ __ ] I don't know what it. is. >> And so I was just seeking relief because. of like there there's something that's. [ __ ] up in my head. And uh I didn't. know what it was. Didn't know what it. was. Still to this day, I look at it. like, you know, it was it I call it a. godsh shot cuz it it was one where it's. like something needs to change cuz this. is unsustainable, you know, unsustainable with the alcohol, unsustainable with what's going on in my. head and, you know, get sober things.

quiet down, you know? It's actually. quiet downs. That first year it took. that of sobriety it took to clear out. all the [ __ ] that was in my head. going, I just need neutral, >> right? M. >> and once I hit neutral it's like oh wow. I can build on this you know so it's. it's it's been incredible. it makes no sense at all but it makes. perfect sense. No, it does make sense. because you're willing to articulate. your deep thoughts, your your very.

vulnerable thoughts on, you know, who. you are as a guy who was, you know, one. point in time one of the scariest. [ __ ] human beings walking the face of. the earth. And you're, you know, it's. that's important for people to know and. to hear and to that and to recognize. that like, man, a lot of people can get. caught in that trap. They can. >> Don't think you couldn't. >> Yeah. you know, just be a little bit. more compassionate and understanding and. appreciate people for telling a very. difficult truth about their life because. I think people need to hear that stuff.

>> They do. They do. Like I said, you know. what I understood like giving them the. permission for the documentary saying to. John going, "Okay, if this could change. or help one person, then my life has. value, right? Cuz I helped another. person." And then when it premiered at. HBO at the studios, there there's a this. was like the whole crowning moment is. having like a 65-year-old grandmother. come over to me who I would have nothing. in common with and say to me, you know.

what, that was beautiful. My grandson, he's got a drinking problem and I don't. know what to do. >> Wow. >> You know, it's like this this door had. been opened. >> Yeah. where she felt comfortable to sit. down and talk with me about her. grandson. And it was like this moment of. like, "Oh, [ __ ] This what this is what. it's about.". >> Mhm. >> It's about opening that door up so. people can connect and go, "Well, if he. can do it, I can I can I can tell my. truth,

>> right?". >> You know, cuz it's difficult, man. Addictions are just I mean, shaming and. they keep you in a box and it's just. this it's a horrible existence. Did. anybody ever recommend Ibaggane to you? >> No, I've heard of that though. >> So, they're doing that now in Texas and. the Ibagain initiative uh passed through. thanks to former Governor Rick Perry, Republican. >> Wow. >> Who uh through working with veterans. found that a lot of veterans who. struggle with addiction and who uh PTSD.

>> that I gain is incredibly effective. >> Wow. >> And it's not a recreational drug. It's. not fun. It's a psychedelic that takes. 24 hours and it's apparently like. brutally introspective but literally. corrects addictive pathways like. whatever the connection is in the brain. that causes you to be addicted to. things. It can disrupt those in a very. bizarre and unique way. And it's. something like 80 plus% effective with. one dose of getting people to stay off.

of narcotics, cigarettes, alcohol. And I. think with two doses, it's in the '9s. >> So if you do two different. ceremonies. Yeah, >> that's Yeah, they were going most people. were going My friend Ed Clay uh did it. down in in Mexico and he even had a. place that he was running down in Mexico. because you couldn't do it in America. because it's illegal here. But it it. literally stops the train of addiction. dead in its tracks. They don't totally.

understand how it does it, >> but it's very effective. I know a lot of. veterans who've had. >> so they've talked about like uh the. neuroplasticity of of drugs like that to. create new pathways instantaneously. >> You'd like like. >> I'd like to say those words but I don't. really know what they mean. You know. what I mean when I say them. I'm just. faking. >> I know that's how you're supposed to say. it so I'll say it but respectfully I. don't know what the [ __ ] going on. here. So. >> what I do know is the my friends that I. know that have gone and done the game.

has been massively effective. Get them. off drugs, get them off drinking. >> Get them, you know, they just change. their perspective. They They go, "Okay, I get it now." They just realize where. they were tripping over their own dick, like what they were doing wrong. >> That's incredible. >> Yeah. Quick. I mean, what what else is. like that where like 24 hours later, you. can get a totally new perspective in. life and be cured of addiction and. somehow another that's illegal? That's. illegal. But the stuff that they're. addicted to is not Oh my god. That's. like Yeah. That's [ __ ] Bizarro land,

right? Oh my god. >> Total bizarro world. >> Yeah. None of that makes sense, man. I. mean, it just that's so that's a whole. another rabbit hole. >> It really doesn't make any sense. >> Yeah. No. >> Like what we just said makes like no it. should be the opposite. >> It should be the opposite. This is so. stupid. >> Cuz it's just one where it's like if. that stuff existed back then, it it. would have cut short a decade. >> It did exist, but it just didn't exist. here because we're corrupt. Yeah. >> And so they're again, kudos to Governor.

Rick Barry because what he's done is. like open the doorway to right-wing. leaning people going, "Oh, maybe we. shouldn't dismiss all these things that. God put here on earth." Go, >> maybe some of these things are actually. here to heal your brain and we're. ignoring them because you can't patent. them. Like that might be the thing, too. >> Not saying there's anything wrong with. drugs, but I'm saying that this also. might cure you and it's readily it's. it's a plan. So that's again in the last. five six years alternative perspectives.

has been just paramount in my. >> just in opening me up you know to. >> to having a better understanding of like. how rigid I was and how how just this. thin line of thinking I had had for so. long about stuff like this. >> you know and so you know it's just been. this. >> incredible um. experience to get to here because I've. had to open up. I've had to go, okay,

I'm going to do meditation. I'm going to. do this. I did I did meditation for. fighting, but it was visual meditation. How the [ __ ] I was going to dismantle a. dude in the ring, right? I would sit and. do But this is meditation to access. different parts of my brain, >> right? To try to get into delta waves. and, you know, theta, beta, you know, all these different things so I can open. different spots in my brain up, >> right? You know, and so it's just been. this, you know, my wife, she's ner. Buddhist, you know, num num yoho reo.

She chants every morning. >> Duncan does that. >> Yeah. Numo. So the Buddha you have the. Buddha, the gold Buddha you have. We. have one in our house. Not quite that. big, but we have Yeah. So she's. naturist. And. >> it's one of those things where she got. me to start chanting. Um I don't do it. as much now, but the first three, four. years we were together, it's like I. chanted with her regularly and it's one. of those where it's like harmonics and. vibrations and frequencies, >> you know, and understanding like.

>> man, we know so little. >> but realistically all this stuff through. like all the different stuff they. discovered in Egypt with the sound. chambers and all the different things. I. mean, it's a whole different thing where. we just ignored. >> Yeah. And it's like, well, [ __ ] we we. don't even we're so archaic in our. thinking. >> Well, I think what happens sometimes is. thinking and ideas get connected to. people and you think that the ideas and. whatever you're whatever you think you.

know about history or about the the way. things can be done. Yeah. >> Like it's all it's all been solved, kids. Yeah. Like settle down. Everybody. knows. No, no, no, no. I don't think. they do. I don't think that you should. show me how they built that. Show me who. the [ __ ] figured this out. Like maybe. they knew about medicine that you're. ignoring because you can't patent it. >> Yeah. >> These people have been making Iawaska. for 10,000 years in the jungle. Like you. don't. >> don't tell me.

>> Yeah. Oh my god. >> Settle down. >> Settle down. There's there's all the. things that you think are valid plus. other stuff. That's the thing that. people have to recognize. It's you can't. be rigid with what you believe in. >> because sometimes it's wrong. >> That's the part where I can't believe. how much I've opened up and been just. receptive. Um and a lot of it's because I'm sober. and it's like [ __ ] I don't know [ __ ]. man. Like when you look at the bigger. picture stuff, I I know so little, >> dude. Nobody knows [ __ ] That's the.

scariest thing. There's a bunch of. people pretending they've got it figured. out, but they're full of [ __ ] too. >> Every one of us is a talking monkey. flying through space. Anyway, there's. just a great way to look at it over our. head. We are in a convertible organic. spaceship hurling through the universe. That alone, once you start with that, that's your foundational. Okay, this is. foundational to your view of the world, >> right? Oh my god. >> The problem with us is that we don't. [ __ ] see the stars anymore. That's a.

giant problem with human beings. We've. screwed ourselves up with light. pollution. And it's not a coincidence. that the people that live in the most. populated cities are the most diluted, ridiculous people that are the furthest. away from nature. >> Not that they're not awesome people, but. what I'm saying is like you you are so. far away from nature. You're so diluted. from being like a wild animal. >> So, you know what I've actually done in. the last couple I've hugged trees. >> I've literally hugged trees and it feels. beautiful. >> Yeah, that's real. >> It It really is like like uh walking.

barefoot, right? like on grass and. getting connected and you know I at you. would have said that to me 10 years ago. I'm like yeah okay whatever dude. >> you know but it's like okay who says it. who says it's not. >> I think nature's a vitamin. >> oh yeah. >> I think plant hey where did the term. tree hugger come from did it come from. the time where hippies were doing acid. >> probably. >> cuz then that would make so much more. sense. >> because if you were on acid and you hug. a tree you're like I love you. I love.

you tree. You're so [ __ ] amazing. >> Oh [ __ ] that originated a while ago. Oh. >> From a series of nonviolent. environmental protests in India, beginning with the Bish Bishnoi Bisho. Bisho Bishnoi community in 1730. Wow. Who physically clung to trees to prevent. them from being cut down. See, those. people are probably on mushrooms. >> Whoa. I would think. >> that's why that's why they worship. cattle. That's what I think. I I would.

>> Why else would all those poor people not. eat cows? >> Oh my god, cows feel so good. >> But doesn't that make no sense? >> It makes no sense at all. >> Makes no sense. You guys have food. everywhere and you're starving and your. your religion won't let you eat that. food. >> Boy, okay. How'd you come to this? >> The only thing that makes any sense to. me is those cows were giving you the. mushrooms. >> They had to. >> because that's where the mushrooms go. That's where they grow. The best source. of psilocybin. >> is cow poop.

>> Duncan used to live in uh my friend. Duncan Trussell used to live in. Asheville, North Carolina. And uh the. farmers out there used to put a certain. kind of feed into their diet to make. sure that fungus couldn't grow in their. [ __ ]. >> so that the the kids wouldn't go in the. field and pick the mushrooms cuz there. was so many spores in that area. >> These kids would go and just get bags of. mushrooms and go to other planets. So, the farmer had to feed the farmer. had to feed his cow some ant.

[Music]. >> I wonder if it is I bet there's parts of. this country where they just grow. naturally. >> I would I would imagine. >> once those spores get out there. >> I would imagine. Yeah, >> I would imagine. >> I was supposed to actually go down into. Brazil and I. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Isn't it crazy you have to go to Brazil. to do that, too? That's nuts. >> Yeah. a friend of mine uh we actually went. down um. >> to stem cells in uh Panama. It's called.

Origins. And so we go down there and he. starts explaining like this. It for him. it was like seeing the face of God. He. said it changed his whole entire whole. entire being. >> And he's like it's in the jungle. So. there's no like it's. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. Exactly. And he goes it's it's. it's life changing. >> I just picture Alex Pereira walking to. Dude, totally, man. Totally. Like, that's the scary [ __ ] man. I. swear to God. >> He's the scariest,

>> dude. His walkin is the scariest, bro. My god, man. >> It's the dopest, too. That music starts. playing. >> Taunt. It's this like I'm coming to get. you. Nothing you could do about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He's built for one thing. And I. bumped into him in Chicago and like he's. built for one thing. He's built to. fight. >> Yeah. He's He's built to [ __ ] you up. Oh, he's built a fight. >> Weird weirdly strong guy. >> Oh, yeah. Like like literally it's like. like like he shouldn't be able to do.

what he's doing. It's like, you know, I. go there's no wind up in his kicks, his. low kicks. There's no no tells. >> No tell. >> Like you look at really sneaky. >> But he's got unbelievable power. But the. thing is he puts it together with. technique. It's not like he's just. waiting after you trying to exchange. with you and land first. No, >> no. He's setting you up and while he's. setting you up, he's taking your legs. away and you're not seeing the towels. >> cuz they're not there. >> Oh my god. They're not there at all. His. hips. Yep. That's it. They don't move. I.

was trying to. >> You think it's coming, it's already. there and you're like. >> And that's the whole thing is you go, "Okay, you're you're thinking you're. going to pick up on it and it's like, >> no, you're never going to.". >> Yeah. He's very clever with that. And he. does it with both sides, too. He's just. as good with the left leg with a switch. kick when he's fighting a southpaw. He. just starts chewing up those calves. really quick, man. >> I can't believe that isn't even even a. thing. Is that that nerve? I think from. the. >> Yeah, it's a horrible nerve. Do you That. wasn't a thing when you were fighting. >> No, it wasn't a thing. Isn't that.

>> crazy? >> Oh my god. >> You have to know it now. >> Oh my gosh. Like looking at it going, "Oh my god, he's taking him out. He. can't He can't walk. Look at It's like. five kicks in. You're like, "Oh [ __ ] he. can't push off of it.". >> Isn't it crazy that you went your whole. career without seeing that? I I like. where like who discovered it? >> Michael Bisping. Even Michael Bisping. said it. I went through my whole career. without getting calf kicked. That's so. crazy. >> Yeah. >> World champion. Never never got calf. kicked.

>> Like that's a good thing. >> Yeah. It was just amazing. But it's. amazing that it came along so late. >> It's because it's it's unbelievable. You. would think that something that looks. that innocent is so debilitating. Well, Benson Henderson was the first guy to. start implementing it in the UFC and. then uh Mighty Mouse did it to Henry. Cejudo and made his leg go limp. >> Do you ever remember that? He started he. started doing it, but this was like. around the time where it started. catching on. There was one fight between.

Dustin Porier and Jim Miller. Oh, that. was a horrible one. There was a lot of. calf kicks in that fight. >> Yeah. I mean, that's a copycat league, right? It's a copycat thing. like. watching another fighter going, "Yeah, I'm going to try it.". >> But now, see, everyone has it. Everyone. has it. You have to have it. And you. have you can't take too many. >> No. >> No matter who you are. >> No, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's just. one of those where I. >> So vulnerable. >> It's it's one of those where it's like. there's there's other than checking it. or getting out of the way, there's not a. [ __ ] [ __ ] you can do.

>> Well, Pereira has a very interesting way. of checking it. So, he checks it like. the hacksack way. Do you know what I'm. talking about? Yeah. >> So, like when you throw a kick at him, he just lifts his leg. >> He just lifts. He He has his knee there. and he just picks his his leg up and so. the kick just kind of goes with it. >> and he goes it takes all the impact on. it. Cuz he was saying as far as checking. it like you don't want to check it cuz. it [ __ ] hurts too much. >> Like even if you're even if you're just. checking now that leg is [ __ ] up. >> Like why check it when you can just do.

that like hackys sack thing and he was. showing us with it like see oh that's a. different one. He does that one. That's. a different hacky sack one where he uses. the back of his foot. >> Yeah. >> But what I mean is uh he is picking up. his leg like at the knee. His ankle is. coming up parallel. >> Yeah. To the floor. >> I know exactly what you're talking. about. >> You're not going to see it, but he's. just uh he's clever. There's a lot of. cleverness and it seems to be very. creative like the style that he has like.

how he figures out how to because he. knows he's just got to land one. So he's. got these very creative little ways to. chop out the legs. >> I still I still think Shauna Ali's got. the best faints. >> Oh, he got phenomenal things. >> I mean, just so I I remember watching. him before he got to the UFC and a. friend of mine was like, "No, no, no. You got you got to watch this kid. You. got to watch this kid." You know, and. watching him going, it would be like. this just again and again and again and. just realizing, "Oh, [ __ ] That's what.

he was setting up.". >> Yeah. >> It was 14 faints, right? to get to what he wanted to get to. And. then it was like a faint here, faint on. this side, faint here. And he all of a. sudden he's got a tendency and now it's. like attack time. >> Did you ever see the Eddie Weinland one? >> Uh. >> he faints an uppercut and he comes over. the top with a right hand. >> I've seen it, but I haven't seen it. >> Oh, you got to see it. It's so pretty. It was one of his prettiest knockouts. >> He like he like stepped in like fainted. like he was going to throw an uppercut. and turned it into a left hand. Oh my.

god, >> it was so clean. >> Yeah, he's done some stuff. >> Watch this. >> Watch how he. >> It's amazing. >> Look at that. He faints a left uppercut. and comes over the top with the right. hand. >> God, >> watch that again. >> And that's one of those where that is. that's Oh my god, that's silly, >> bro. That's so beautiful. >> Oh my god, that's like one of those things where. it's like you can't teach it. You You. can't teach that stuff. >> This is so slick. That's such a slick.

move. >> Cannot teach it. >> Did you watch the Terren Crawford Canelo. Halver fight? >> Yeah, I did. >> Talk about slick. >> Oh my goodness. >> Crawford just out box, man. Like [ __ ]. unreal. >> Who's ever done that? Who's ever jumped. up two weight classes like that? >> Scary. >> It's crazy. >> Scary. So, so realizing like watching it. going, Carnelo has such a bully style. >> Mhm. >> Right. He's going to get in, he's going. to bang with you, he's going to power. and watching Canelo just or Crawford.

just just box. >> just box beautifully. >> Oh, like I watch the whole thing I'm. like that's art. That is art. >> He's so clever and just like the way and. it got to a point where he got so. comfortable. He's like pit patting him. and then throw like what bang you're. watching like wow towards the end. towards the final rounds really started. getting comfortable and really started. putting it on. I'm like this is amazing. you know, one of those rare like that's. history obviously, right? Watching.

somebody do. >> you shouldn't be able to do that. You. shouldn't be able to fight at that. weight for the first time ever. >> against one of the greatest. >> undisputed greatest of all time [ __ ]. and do what you did. It's It is beyond. like my favorite an outlier. You're. beyond an outlier. You're something. You're an anomaly. >> Yeah. Something special. Something. really special. >> I believe he's 37. >> Yeah. One of those where you shouldn't. be able to do that by by by any account.

By any account, 37, my body was so. wrecked up. I'm like, "Fuck you." You. know, I ain't doing I can barely go. bowling. It's I was I watched a video of Dolph. Londrid the other day. >> Like I That guy was like remember in. Rocky 3, he was the first guy that was. scientifically trained. >> Yeah. >> Whenever I think of like UFC fighters. like. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Were you thinking. talking about guys doing everything. scientifically Dolph Lungren in Rocky 3? >> Yeah. Oh my god, man. That was. >> a Rocky four. Rocky four, right?

>> That was a stereotype. That was a. stereotype like the Russians, you know. Oh, they're manufactured, you know, like. biologically manufactured. I came from a. test tube, you know, type. >> He totally looked like a Russian. experiment in that movie. >> He did. >> But he that was the first time I saw a. Versa Climber. I was like, whoa, conditioning. Look at that. He's. unstoppable. Yeah, I was on a Versa. Climber two days ago. >> They're brutal. >> Oh, [ __ ] I hate them. >> Not a lot of fun. >> No, >> not not an enjoyable.

>> I do an aerodyine versa climber, a. rower, and then a skier. >> All the things that suck. >> All the things that suck. >> Like going just [ __ ] just, you know, but. it's one of those where I'm like, you. know what? >> I don't have to do it for anything other. than the challenge of just doing it. >> Yeah. You know, >> I think everybody needs a little bit of. a challenge and just getting over the. challenge of doing like I'm doing 45. minutes on this elliptical machine. period. >> That's it. >> Yeah, that's good for you. >> Oh, it's huge. It's huge. It's giant.

because it's just like when I train to. come small wins, right? I just need a. win. >> It's like some days I just need [ __ ]. a win. That's it. I don't care what it. is, >> right? >> You know, I just need a win, >> you know? being nice to my wife, you. know, being nice to, you know, just. whatever it is. >> I just need something that day, >> right? >> You know, it's like, [ __ ] I'm going to. go to the gym. I'm going to get on a. [ __ ] thing that I hate and I'm going. to [ __ ] do it for 45 minutes and I'm. and that's a win. And I think if you. looked at the proportion, like if you. looked at this, if there was a study.

done on people that are happy versus. people that are not in this life, I bet. the people that would generally say. they're happy get more of those. >> get more of those wins in over. themselves. >> Yeah. >> Get more of those doing some [ __ ] that. you didn't want to do, but you did it. there. I'm done. >> Yeah. >> I feel better. And that that's that's. the for me that's the link to get to. where I am today is that I didn't. understand how huge those components. were. >> Yeah. >> Because when you're competing and stuff,

it's easy because every day you need you. need to get wins, right? >> And you're stacking them, right? I'm. stacking them. I need every day. I need. a good training day. I need a good. training day. >> And then you get to regular life. It's. like, >> okay, what's the [ __ ] I'm not I'm not. like what's my Yeah. What's my win. letting somebody in on traffic? You. know, that's that's a giant problem for. fighters, too, because you're you're. you're at [ __ ] 9,000 RPMs for years. and then all of a sudden. >> Yeah. >> And you're supposed to go to normal life. now.

>> No. No. And I didn't. So, this is this. is again where [ __ ] this idea of like. of like I didn't understand how much of. myself was tied up in it and how much I. needed to go. It's what I did, not who I. am. and understanding like this who I am. has a lot longer career than this. fighter, >> right? It's it's it's understanding who. I like. really getting into the fact that, you. know, I'm much more than just a fighter,

you know, and understanding like, okay, what is that, you know, I'm I'm a. compassionate person. And I'm. empathetic, you know, um, you know, I'm. try to be kind and understanding the. people around me. I try to bring, um, I. call it emotional sobriety, right? Like. if I'm emotionally honest with the. people in my life, everybody else is. fits in. If I'm emotionally dishonest, people get [ __ ] up. My environment. gets all [ __ ] up. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah.

>> You know, so it's like it's. understanding these these aspects about. my life going, "Oh god, man. I need to. make these the important parts of where. I'm building and what I'm building in my. life. And it's been, you know, it's been. a process. It's been some days I'm like, "Fuck this, man. [ __ ] this." And other. days I'm like, "That was just a day.". >> As long as you can keep that clarity of. knowing that these [ __ ] this days are. going to pass. >> Oh god. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I call Well, my Hall of Fame. speech I called it, you know, like when.

I was first getting sober, it was like I. just I would try to get through a. minute. I go, I just need to make it. through this minute. That's all. And I. just need to make it through this next. minute. This I just need to get through. this next. Some of them were [ __ ]. hard because I just wanted to [ __ ] [ __ ]. this because I'm so uncomfortable, you know? And I'd get through that. minute. I go, I just need to make it. through this hour. I need to just make. it through this day. And then it' be. this week, you know, and then all of a. sudden it's like a month goes by, but. I'd still have to go back. I just need.

to make it through this [ __ ] minute, >> right? >> You know, like it like so like it's it's. just how I'm built, you know, like this. this just self that just is so restless. inside, you know? It's like [ __ ]. you know? >> Amazing. Do you think that that's that. that was accelerated by fighting or do. you think that was a pre-existing thing. that drew you to fighting? >> Um, I think it was accelerated by fighting. You know, I do. Um,

you know, a lot of it just, you know, I'm a competitor. Being a competitor. allowed me to fight, but fighting was. like hurting another human being to the. level that I had to hurt them. That was. a whole another experience. You know, it's like I could wrestle, I can. compete, I can do grappling, but to. physically be I I had to flip a switch. and turn into this other person that I'm. like, "Fuck, I'm glad I know he's there, but it's like that's not that's not me, >> right?".

>> You know, it's just this weird dichotomy. or this weird. >> that nobody ever really gets to. experience except for someone like you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or maybe like at another level, a higher. level, someone at war. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. That's I mean. that's you know I understand why there's. you know a lot of the veterans and what. they go through it's like that's. normally that's not how you're built as. a human being. >> right you're not supposed to experience. that and then come back and just be. normal normal. >> Yeah. Like. >> it's like oh [ __ ].

>> that movie Hurt Locker when he's walking. around the supermarket you can tell he. wants to go back. >> Oh my god. It's because it's just one. where it's like it's not how I'm built. you I have a. >> I have um a lot more compassion as you. know for other human beings. But you. know I was glad to know that if I got. put in a [ __ ] room with another dude. I was coming out [ __ ]. >> That was a good thing to know. >> It's a good thing. >> It's a good thing to know, right? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing to know. No.

>> Do you when you look back, do you I mean. do do if you would to give yourself. advice, when would you think would have. been a good time for you to stop. fighting? >> After Vegeta. >> After Vegeta. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. because because that what you know. what and and. like if people understood like at that. time period like I got sober um I fought. enson and then I went and did Abu Dhabi.

and I and I won my weight class won the. all-around which was a big deal for me. at the time it was a huge deal and then. if I would have won that championship. uh if I would have won the Pride Grand. Prix it would have been mic drop. >> I could have walked away and it could. have the Khabib moment where it's like, "Oh, I wonder how good he [ __ ] I. wonder how good he could have been." You. know, it would have been a complete. [ __ ] mic drop. Right. >> Right. >> But it's just at that moment I I knew.

that something had changed in me that I. didn't didn't have that thing in me that. I needed to do it because you need a. thing in you to do that. You do. >> And that's what we're talking about like. a gear. You need a different gear. you. need a different component to get to. that level. Um, and if you if you don't. have it, it's like, you know, they say. in the NFL, if you're thinking about. retirement, you shouldn't be playing the. game. >> So, you were at a point where your.

dislike of hurting people was. interfering with your job. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I mean, just I had to I. had to just get to a place which is. just, you know, just a place that I just. didn't like being. >> Right. No, it makes sense talking to. you, you know, because it's it's funny. you talk to certain people like yourself. and and George, like George St. Pierre, I was just hanging out with him the. other night and he my friends are always. like, "He's so normal. This is so. weird." Like, it's so hard to believe. that that guy is one of the greatest.

fighters of all time, but because he's. so normal. >> Yeah. >> But that that's also the beauty in it. >> It's that's why people are fascinated by. fighting because they want to know what. can a normal person do? Yeah. Yeah. >> What can a normal person turn himself. into? What what is possible? >> Yeah. And that's that's the I answered. that question for myself, right? And. it's one where it's like, okay, you know, and to get for me to get there. was was so not difficult, but like I.

would watch film of me walking out and I. couldn't even recognize myself. Like my. facial expression, how I walked, how I. carried myself. I'd look at it and go, "Wow, that doesn't even look like me.". Like transforming like into a completely. different person. And it's understanding. like like compartmentalizing everything. like no emotions, no nothing singularly. focused to one thing. And that thing was. I'm going to impose my will on you till.

I [ __ ] take yours. That's it. And for. me, it just was a darker place for me to. go. >> Right. Of course. and probably. unsustainable if you want to be a happy. person. >> No, you can't. But you can't. >> But in order to be the Mark Kerr that. everybody loved, you kind of had to go. there. That's the only way to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's the wildest thing that most. people will never understand. Only a. person like yourself who's actually. experienced it will really truly. understand what those words mean.

>> I mean, it's just one word. >> It's a nutty requirement of someone. >> [ __ ] yeah. >> A nutty request. Hey, you want to go. fight in front of the whole world? >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's it's [ __ ] You. talk about vulnerable like vulnerable. like [ __ ] baron your soul. That's cuz. you you get to a place of exhaustion. >> You know it's weakness. >> You know, you're showing everybody. you're in here you weren't strong enough. to train to the capacity you need to. train to to fight. And look at this.

dude. He's beating the [ __ ] out of you. And you got [ __ ] hot pants on. Boo. >> Right. To add a little [ __ ] insult, right? >> You got [ __ ] hot pants on. He's. beating the [ __ ] So, I mean, there's. that whole thing. It's It's very [ __ ]. vulnerable to fight cuz there's it's. just it's just very like the loneliest. place two loneliest places in the world. is walking into the ring and after the. fight's over. >> The two loneliest places I've ever been. in my entire life are those two places.

Cuz there's no help when you're walking. into the ring. It's just [ __ ] you and. you know that. And after the fight, it's. just you. And you have to live with. whatever experience you just had. Win, lose, or draw. You know, times I won, I felt empty. because it felt like I needed to go do. something again. It felt like I needed. to go achieve something again. Like. everything was so focused on this thing. Once this thing's over, I need another. thing. I need to go chase that thing. >> Oh wow.

>> It's this neverending. Like for me it. was this neverending cuz I was trying to. be enough. I was just trying to be. enough and I could never get there. >> Isn't it crazy that that kind of. addictive behavior and thinking is. almost the only way to make true. excellence? >> I know. Isn't it [ __ ] It's just so. [ __ ] up, right? Like like come on. Cuz. I know I know it doesn't only apply to. fighters. I know it's actors and I know. it's artist and you know people that do.

you think Steve Jobs had [ __ ]. >> I mean. >> that's again singularly focused. >> singularly focused. >> right I mean it's just this it's the. it's the you know madness and brilliance. you know are almost of the same vein. right and you know this driven component. of me the the bane of that is that once. that thing was over I had to go [ __ ]. chase something else. >> And I can never [ __ ] sit in that.

moment and be okay with whatever. And. you know, again, it's one of those. things where it's like thankfully I am. designed the way I am, you know, because. I'm finally in a place where I'm like, I'm okay with me. I'm completely okay. with me, you know, and it's taken me a. long time to get here. >> Well, that's awesome, dude. I'm I'm glad. that you got there and uh I'm glad to. just be able to sit down with you and. talk to you and tell you how much I. appreciate first of all your career, but. you've been able to do that Smashing.

Machine documentary I think wasn't just. eyeopening for a lot of people to. realize like, wow, a lot of these guys. are struggling in a way that we couldn't. even possibly comprehend. It's all. they're doing in in private. This guy. just let us into his life. Holy [ __ ]. Like how many more stories are there out. there like this? opens people up to the. conversation, but also like having the. courage to let people like look at your. life like that. I think it's pretty. powerful, man. >> No, I appreciate it. >> And the movie's great. And The Rock, you. [ __ ] nailed it. >> Oh my god. He I mean, The Rock, Emily, you know, >> she nailed it. She goes crazy with it.

She got a A+. kiss. >> for that craziness. Well, thank you, sir. Thanks for being in here, man. I. appreciate the Smashing Machine. It is. out October 3rd, right? Is that when. >> October 3rd? Yeah. Yeah. >> It's very good. >> I appreciate it, Joe. Thank you. >> And Boss Routin kills it in it, too. >> Yeah, >> it was great. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. >> All right. Cheers. [Applause]. [Music].