Joe Rogan Experience #2367 - Jesse Welles

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> Cheers. >> Cheers to you. >> Nice to meet you, man. >> Good to meet you. >> I've enjoyed your songs. How did you uh Well, first of all, how. long you been doing music? Um, I think. most my life, you know. Um,

>> did you grow up in a musical family or. is it just something you picked up on. your own? >> No, I. Everyone. worked and made art when they weren't. working. >> Oh, okay. >> But, uh, no music really, but that I I. liked I like music. >> Like what kind of art did your family. do? Like my mom would always paint. She. put like murals on the on the walls of. the house and stuff. And my old man's.

mechanic. Um, and he would be tinkering. around. making all sorts of fun stuff, usually. with his welder and whatnot. So, I mean, they were I felt like they were artistic. folks, you know, um, but they didn't. >> they didn't necessarily. uh do music, you know. They're smarter. than that. And so, um, I only know of. you from the videos that you put up on. Instagram and specifically, I think it. was the United Healthcare Guy was the. first one. Yeah. Right.

>> Which was really good, dude. It's the. lyrics you and the timing of it all. You. captured the moment. >> and that song to me was like, yeah, that's what the [ __ ] is going on, >> right? >> That's what's really going on. They. don't give a [ __ ] about you and they're. just trying to make money. >> And. >> that's why when this guy got shot, there. was this reaction from people which is. very rare when someone gets assassinated. when people celebrate, >> right? >> When someone's not like a mass murderer.

or something. >> It was bizarre. >> It was bizarre. >> It's it's it's. >> I mean it must mean something is up. If. people are celebrating. >> Yes. >> somebody's death. >> Yes. >> Something is wrong. >> And all kind across both sides of the. aisle. It's not a political thing. It is. a a human thing that they're like these. people, >> they take your [ __ ] money, you pay. them, and then when something comes up, you don't get covered, >> and there doesn't seem to be any. repercussions, and to fight it, you have. to go to court, and you usually don't. have the money to go to court.

>> And they have a lot of [ __ ] money, right? >> And they, you know, have been doing this. for a long time. And now they're using. AI to make sure that they pay less. So. they're using AI to approve cases and. the the numbers are even lower than they. were before. So United Healthcare always. had a lower number than industry. standard. Right. >> Yeah. >> Now it's even with with AI are they. going to be able to chop it down to even. lower? It's like what. >> at what point in time does this become. against the law? Like at what point in. time is this like it's a con game? Like.

you're paying, you're thinking you're. going to get covered and they're like. nah. the system would have to be revolution. I mean, you can't have health for for. profit at that point. You'd have to. socialize the the medicine at some. point, >> which I I agree with up until a point. The problem is human nature and like if. you like if you hurt your shoulder and. you want to get you need to get an. operation on your shoulder. You want to. go to a guy who does the Lakers, you. know what I mean? You want to go to a.

guy who is like this [ __ ] is the. cream of the crop. He is dialed in. He's. been doing this forever. super focused. and motivated and he drives a [ __ ]. Mercedes, right? The reason why he. drives a Mercedes, he makes a lot of. money doing what he's doing. >> Yeah. >> You don't want someone to not feel. appreciated, not have the motivation to. continue to get really great at their. craft. Like there's a there's a a thing. with just human beings. There's a. financial motivation that people have. because it's a quantitative thing. It's.

a you could see it on a ledger. you know. that you're making more money because. you're doing this and you're working. harder and you're getting this. >> reward whether or not it makes sense or. not. >> As soon as you eliminate that and. everybody gets the same amount of money. and and then you you you lose all the. killers, you lose all the. >> No, all I mean is that you just don't. want to have to go to an urgent care and. it cost $500 to get a pack of. >> 100%. Well, that's a giant scam. >> So, and but that's that's a scam that so. many folks are stuck in, you know,

>> that's only part of the scam. You know, the healthc care scam, it goes so deep. There's so many different layers to this. [ __ ] horrible den of vampires, >> right? >> You know, cuz it's whenever you can make. profit off of people and you you're. involved in a corporation and then the. corporation has an interest for it's. stockholders want more money every year. They want more money every quarter. So. that's what they try to do. That's their. focus. And when you're doing that with.

people's lives and people's health, like. that that should be illegal. That's. where it gets [ __ ]. >> I suppose that's why folks were I, you. know, it was it was upsetting to see, you know, I felt like I actually had. kind of an unpopular opinion about it. and that why, you know, why are we. celebrating uh somebody's death? like. that seems far out. that just to celebrate the murder of. somebody with a gun. Not only that, I.

believe unrelated to him in his case. >> Like it. I mean how how far out is that? And so I. have I didn't want, you know, I I make I. make these tunes, but that one in. particular, I was like, how do I even. how do I address this? What what do you even say? So that I. >> So how do you approach something like. that? Do you sit down with a pad and pen. or just start writing? Like how do you. how do you do you start saying?

>> Uh step one is a avoid the work. So I. went I I went for. you know some long jogs. Uh, I wrote a. song about. Amazon instead and put up like Amazon is. Santa Claus and I kept sitting there and. it kept getting, you know, the situation. was snowballing with the United. Healthcare thing and I was like, "Okay, you got to write." And at that point, it's it's a research project. Yeah,

let's write let's write 2,000 words so. that we can have 300 to sing and boil. down the essence of the issue and make. it rhyme and uh and put a jolly tune. behind it. That's really that's that's. kind of how that that goes about. >> That sounds like super similar to. standup comedy. >> Yeah, I think you boil it down. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. get every and. I and you don't it's just punchlines. So.

find the punchline of everything. Find. the punch line of everything. I never. had the attention span to tell. >> too much of a story or anything like. that. So I like I I like just keeping it. in punchlines. So I always like you know. Mitch Hedber and and Stephen Wright um. were so good at were so good at that. just come out and lay out a bunch of. punchlines immediately. >> If one doesn't land onto the next one. >> Well, they their whole that was the.

daunting thing about their act which is. so impressive is that all it's all. nonsequittors. So, every subject is new. >> Every time they open their mouth, it's a. new subject, >> right? >> Which is kind of crazy. It's a crazy way. to do comedy. >> Yeah. >> But when you're an absurdist, it's. probably the best way because it's an. absurd way to think, >> right? You're just going from one. subject to the next in each minute. burst. You know, >> somebody asked me if I want a frozen. banana and I said no, but I want a. regular banana later. So, yes.

>> Yeah, >> that's like such a ridiculous joke. I. used to love listening to him in. particular when I was in traffic because. it would like chill me out. Like if I. was headed to the airport in LA and it. was this [ __ ] cluster [ __ ] on the. highway, it was a I just throw on some. Mitch Hedber and just start giggling. It's just silly, you know. >> He's He's one of the coolest. >> He was awesome. >> He was awesome. He was awesome. Um, let's play that song. Jamie, can you.

find that one? The United Healthcare. song. I want to play it so people know. what we're talking about. So people, [Music]. you paid for the phone. You paid for. everything. They need to deny you what. you owe. There ain't no you in United. Health. There ain't no me in the. company. There ain't no us in the. private trust. There's hardly humans in. humanity. Now the procedure that you're needing. ain't the cost effective route. And only. 2% of people end up winning a dispute.

So if you get sick, pray to God for. health cuz your doctors got to pray to. United Health. Way back in 707, Mr. Richard T. Burke. started buying HMOs putting federal. grants to work with 50 billion. buckaroos. Last year the Warren Buffett. of health the Jeff Bezos of fear now. CEOs come and go and want just went the. ingredients you got baked the cake you. get but if you get sick cross your. fingers for luck cuz old Richard T.

Burke ain't giving a [ __ ] Commoditized. health monopolized fraud. Here's the. doctors we own and the research we. bought. They own thearmacies and a lot. of the meds. They should start buying. graves to sell us when we're all dead. There ain't no you in United Health. Ain't no me in the company. in the private. There's hardly humans in. humanity. There's hardly humans in humanity. >> [ __ ] yeah, dude. That's a great song.

That's a great song. And it's. interesting to me how few people are. doing what you're doing. I don't know of. anyone else. I'm sure there probably is. a few people out there that I miss, but. I don't know of anybody else who takes. things that are in the zeitgeist, these. big stories that come up. >> Yeah. >> And turns them into a catchy tune and. does it in a way where you're you laid. out, you know, really the problem and. the whole thing like you said in. punchlines.

>> Yeah. I you know there there's a lot. there's a lot of folks doing it right. now and and more every day. But there. was I mean there's a precedent for that. kind of work. Um. especially as far as like Woody Woody. Guthrie was really. the I was reading I was reading a Woody. Guthrie biography. Um, and uh, my my old man was in the.

hospital. He had just had a heart attack. and we didn't we didn't know like what. way it was going to go or whatever. Anyway, I don't know. Just seeing him. all hooked up to that stuff and thinking. if he were if if he died, I I've hardly I've hardly had any time. to even know him. He's hardly had any. time to know anything. we don't get very. long down here. And I'm reading this. this Woody Guthrie biography and I was. just like, "Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm.

gonna do I'm gonna do this. I, you know, I'm going to sing the sing the news." Um. cuz that that's really what what what he. was kind of was kind of doing in his. day. Uh because there was there's folk. music around him and he team up with. Pete Seager and he was on radio programs. and he could have played he had the he. had the choice. He could have played. standards. He could have played country. western music and stuff like that, but. he liked making folks laugh and he liked. telling it how it was. I like both those.

things. >> I saw Woody Guthrie live when I was a. little kid in San Francisco. >> Arlo or Woody? >> I think Woody. >> Which one was alive back then? Was it. Arlo? >> Yeah, Woody died. >> Okay, so it must have been Arlo. So it. was 19 Let me guess the year. I was 11. >> Yeah. So maybe Yeah. 10 or 11. >> Yeah. >> No, it was San Francisco. So it had to. be I I lived there until I was 11. So.

it's probably around 9 or 10 now that I. think about it. >> But yeah, he performed live. God, I wish. I could remember more of it. >> Yeah. Ar I mean Arlo played Arlo played. this kind of he went a little more. surreal with it which is super groovy, but. he carried you know he carried on the. torch for his old man. So Woody died in. what year? >> 67. >> 67. >> Yeah. 67. He got the He got a. Huntington's disease and was laid up in. a home for quite a while. He lost the. ability to speak and everything.

>> What is a Huntington disease? >> Some a rare genetic disorder. I don't. really know what it does other than. um Yeah. Look, he was he's pretty young. >> Breakdown of nerve cells in the brain. His mother also suffered from the same. illness. >> Yeah. So. >> what causes that? I. >> you you know why do I have a feeling. bad? Maybe not. Why do I have a feeling. there's some environmental toxin. involved? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? >> He was sitting next to he was in East.

Palestine, >> Pennsylvania. >> No way. >> No, no, I'm kid. I'm kidding. You're. joking. >> But I mean, >> well, obviously it's a different time, but there's so many parts of the country. that have been polluted by industrial. waste, right? >> There's so much horrible [ __ ] out there. I mean, maybe he was riding on trains. and box cars and stuff. There's no. telling what they were hauling around. and that sort of thing, but he, you. know, he played the political tunes. Um, he. he he re I I don't And maybe he's a.

continuation of. um. of a long-standing human tradition of. like bards. going from town to town and singing the. news. I don't know. Maybe there was some. medieval dude going around singing about. the king, >> you know, and I don't but maybe maybe. maybe there was just cuz I don't I like. I don't know if it's a uniquely American. tradition, but. >> when I do it, I like to I get romantic.

about it and kind of think of it as a. uniquely American tradition because you. got the freedom to do it, right? >> And no one's gunning me down in the in. the field there or anything for anything. I say, you know? So, I get to. you know. >> Yeah. That's why I doubt what any if. anybody was ever doing anything the way. you do it when they were doing it for. about the king. that dude. >> the the knights the knights go hunt him. down or something. >> Yeah. Maybe a few guys tried but I bet. they killed him. >> Or maybe you hired uh you you co-opted.

the bard. You turned him into your fool, your jester or whatever and then he sang. songs for you about how fat the neighbor. king was. I think that's a different. guy. I think you're dealing with a. different guy. The guy who is the. jester, that's the [ __ ] vampire. familiar, you know? You know, like in. Blade, the guys get close to the. vampires. >> cuz they want eventually one day want to. be a vampire. They're promised it. >> Who is in Lord of the Rings? Who was.

like Theodin's uh dude? Wor worm tongue. something. Anyway, >> I don't remember. I don't remember. people very close. >> But it's there's that's always the. Dracula story. There's always a. familiar. There's always a human that. does the bidding of the vampire. >> Mhm. >> Oh, that guy. Yeah. Perfect. Exactly. Yeah. Same kind of guy. [ __ ] creep. with a questionable hard drive. >> Did he Was he in one flew over the.

cuckoo's nest? >> Was he? God, that seems weird. >> Like Billy Babbit. >> He would be so old. Yeah. >> One flow of the cuckoo. >> Was it 67 or something? That was a long. time ago. >> I mean, but was it. >> Yeah, that guy's been in everything. >> That's him now. >> Oh, not now. >> That's him now. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. >> Ain't that crazy? Time is such a. [ __ ]. >> Oh, gay. >> He was in one floor as a cuckoo's nest.

>> Far out. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> 75. That's a great [ __ ] movie, too. Yeah, >> that's a eyeopening movie about. healthcare speaking which. >> well yeah in an in an era of sanatoriums. you know and stuff where you. >> right and then people glorified that. it's like we need more mental health. institutes that's why there's so many. homeless people on the street and like. >> have you ever been. we definitely need more mental health.

>> we went 100% those people need care but. do they need the kind of care that they. were getting before they were released. on the street when they were given. people electroshock therapy and [ __ ]. cooking their brains. >> Those at at least whatever's going on in. one floor of the cookies nest is. essentially a prison. >> Yeah. Well, they're all. >> with electroshock therapy. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. And and labbotoies until like '. 67. >> Yeah. >> They were just cooking people's brains. with a wand, getting in there and. scrambling up your brain. >> It's It's so.

>> dude. They did lobotoies for decades. >> Yeah. decades. until enough people had their loved ones. turned into zombies that they were like, "Hey, maybe we should probably [ __ ]. stop that.". >> Did Didn't they labize. Kennedy? >> Yep. >> Um. >> apparently she was just wild. >> Yeah, >> that's all it was. Well, first of all, >> so I would have been labmized. >> I don't know if you Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, first of all, the men were. wild. She was wild sexually. Is that.

part of the accusation that she was very. promiscuous? They had a problem with her. and they wanted her to calm down and so. they [ __ ] scrambled her brains and. apparently she became non-functional. Like they really kind of they, you know, they dialed it up to 10. >> Yeah. >> And that was it for her. This is part of. the show where I talk about AG1, which. I've done for years. And usually I like. to talk about routine. And don't get me. wrong, because routine is super. important. And AG1 is exactly the kind. of daily easy routine that can help you.

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flavors yourself. That's drink. ag.com/joen.h. When Kennedy was 23, doctors told her. father that lobotomy would help calm her. mood swings and stop her occasional. violent outburst. >> 23. >> Uh, so Joe Senior decided 23 decided. Rosemary should have a labbotomy. However, he did not inform his wife. Oh. my god. Until after the procedure was. completed, the procedure took place. November 1941,

sins of the father in the book uh 1996. biography. Jose uh James W. Watts, who. carried out the procedure with Walter. Freeman, both of George Washington. University School of Medicine and Health. Sciences, described to Kesler as. follows. After Rosemary was mildly. sedated, we went through the top of her. head, Dr. Watts recalled. I think she. was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain. through the skull. It was near the. front. It was on both sides. We just. made a small incision, no more than an. inch. The instruments Dr. Watts used.

looked like a butter knife. He swung it. up and down to cut brain tissue. >> We put an instrument inside, he said as. Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked. Rosemary some questions. For example, he. asked her to recite the Lord's Prayer or. sing God Bless America or to count. backward. We made a me an estimate on. how far to cut based on how she. responded. When Rosemary became began to. become incoherent, they stopped. >> What a tragedy.

Holy cow. Yeah. >> Scroll back up. Go back up. >> Scroll up so I can hear it. >> How many folks were getting these? >> The nuns of the covenant thought that. Rosemary might become involved with. sexual partners and that she could. contract a sexually transmitted disease. or become pregnant. Her occasionally. erratic behavior frustrated her parents. So she got expelled from summer camp and. she was staying, it says, and staying.

only for a few months at a Philadelphia. boarding school. Kennedy was sent to a. convent school in Washington DC. Kennedy. began sneaking out of the convent school. at night. The nuns in the convent. thought that she might be involved with. sexual partners. >> and that she might get an STD or become. pregnant. And so then they decided to. give her a [ __ ] labbotomy. >> Imagine that. You you send a young. healthy girl to a convent with a bunch. of [ __ ] creepy nuns and she just like. breaks out in the middle of the night.

like go to hang out with her friends or. go meet up with a guy or [ __ ]. something. Yeah. >> And so they go, "Well, the solution to. this is cut her brain.". >> Yeah. >> And have her talk until she can't talk. anymore and then we know when to stop. cutting. >> That's insane. >> Meanwhile, Kennedy's got his. >> That wasn't even a. >> He's running his escapades. >> Oh yeah, they all were. the father was. like there's I don't know whether it's. true or not true because we used to say. it and then there's been things. disputing it but of course. >> who knows how much money is involved in. this in the first place but supposedly.

Kennedy senior was involved in illegal. liquor during the time where there was. prohibition in this country. >> I thought he was a mobster. >> he definitely knew some people which was. what helped his son win Illinois. >> right. >> yeah it's just like I know what's true. and what's not true in terms of him. being a moonshine runner, right? >> But it tracks, >> you know, and the whole. >> seems like an incredibly lucrative. business to get into during prohibition.

I don't know who who wouldn't be running. liquor, >> especially when you can control the. police, you know, especially when you. had money and you were involved and you. had your foot dipped in all sorts of. organized crime and, you know, >> then you had souped up NASCAR cars that. they were using to drive sort of NASCAR. >> I guess that's the roots of Yeah. So, if. it. >> running from the cops, >> yeah, if it weren't for Joe, we wouldn't. have had wouldn't had Dale, >> right? Wouldn't had the. >> the loop. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's um it's just a a crazy.

practice that they did for a long long. time just to get rid of people that were. a problem. >> So what's the modern labbotomy? What are. we doing right now that we're going to. read on wiki or you know whatever? >> Oh, there's probably quite a few of. them. 15. >> Holy cow. >> I'm sure gender transitions for. children. I'm I'm sure that's going to. be on that list. or taking. I don't know like like ben like.

prescribing benzo and stuff. >> Oh, that's gonna be on that list for. sure. You know, benzo like like a. chemical labbotomy or. >> Well, benzo doesn't give you a chemical. labbotomy, but it does make you 100%. hooked on it. >> Yeah. Well, it's just the diff the. stress you would undergo getting out of. the addiction. You might never you might. never come come back fully or get your. life all the way back after an addiction. like that. >> Well, I know several people that have. had that problem and it is a real.

struggle, right? >> Like Jordan Peterson has publicly talked. about it. It took him over a year to. recover physically. >> just from being addicted. >> And that's actually going to rehabs and. stuff like that. There's a lot of folks, most folks, they ain't they ain't going. >> they don't have the money. >> nowhere, you know, they get off it and. then drink themselves to death or. >> or do cocaine or do something else. >> Yeah. Find some find something else. >> or, you know, or the psychiatrist puts. you on some new kind of pills to satisfy. whatever the [ __ ] was wrong with you in. the first place. >> And you can get off one and hop over to.

the other. >> Yeah. >> Go back and forth and. >> it's a real problem. And when someone. gets on that ride, it's hard to get off. It's hard to get off the take this pill. to fix it ride. >> Yeah. That ride is a very popular ride. >> Yeah. I I mean, folks like having a having a doctor tell. them it's all right. You know, I guess. it's like a. it's like they get it they're.

an authority figure told them it's all. good to take this pill, >> you know, or whatever. Not only that, with especially with benzo, especially. in the early days, nobody even told them. that it was almost impossible to get off. of. >> I mean, could a patient kind of figure. that out pretty quick. >> Well, they don't because they keep. taking it, right? You keep taking it. because you're addicted to it. >> If you forget forget a dose, you start feeling those withdrawals come. in, you know, or. >> Well, apparently with uh find this out.

if this is true. Apparently, one of the. things about benzoazipine is that it. alleviates anxiety, but if you stop. taking it, your anxiety, maybe even. elevates past where it was before you. first took it. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, there's like a slingshot effect. >> I'm saying when you get off of anything, all sorts of stuff rattles loose in your. head, man. >> For sure. For sure. >> And everything gets everything gets. worse for a period of time. But what I. was going to get at is it's one of the.

few where you could die if you get off. of it, >> right? It's like that and alcohol. Those. are like the two things, right? >> So, here it is. During early withdrawal, an individual may experience a return of. anxiety and insomnia symptoms as the. brain rebounds without the drugs. But it doesn't say. a rebound. How long does it last? Many. people stop taking these medications. experience increased anxiety or. restlessness referred to as rebound. anxiety. rebound effects from benzo. withdrawal such as anxiety or insomnia.

typically last two to three days. I. don't think that's true. >> I don't think that's true. >> I mean the insomnia itself is is enough. to cause all sorts of different. >> Yeah. How long does. >> benzo belly what is that? >> Benzo belly. >> um can depend is it like a diarrhea such. as the type of dose of benzo the what. does it mean? Some people experience. What does it say? >> They should. >> What does it say? It is benzo belly.

What to know? >> Put that common side of Oh, cramps. >> Yeah. Gastrointestinal symptoms. >> Oh, well, you're [ __ ] poisoning your. insides. >> to the Pepto list. >> Your body's like, "What are you doing?". Oh, look at You could get nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, bloating, intest, you know how they do. that at the end of the commercial. Indigestion, loss of appetite, constipation, weight loss, >> bloody diarrhea. You might want to die. That's the craziest ones. When the simp. side effects of anti-depressants are. suicide. >> Yeah.

>> There ain't no you in United Health. >> They make they make. >> folks are making money. As long as the. keep the money rolling in. >> Yeah. As long as they keep mushrooms. illegal. There's a lot of things that could be. fixed in a in a very natural way that. people have been doing for thousands of. years. Yeah. That you can't do. At least. in Texas, they opened up I gain again, >> right? >> So that's new where, you know, they're. going to do these they they've done them. so far these trials with uh soldiers and.

just it's super effective, man. Especially for getting off drugs. >> Yeah. >> Like really really really effective. Like 80% for one dose in the 90s for two. dose. People just quit pills, quit. everything, quit drinking, whatever the. whatever's [ __ ] with you. Yeah. >> Yeah. There's natural tools out there to. figure out like people get in patterns, right? They get in these terrible. behavior patterns and they don't know. why. They don't know how to get out of. them. They keep falling into them. because they're like tightly grooved.

into the way you think. >> Yeah. And unless you can leave for a. moment the the connection that you have. to this existence where you're. completely continually trapped by your. patterns, unless you can leave and look. at those patterns, you just you're just. fighting against so much gravity and so. much momentum and and and then whatever. your the life that you've chosen, the p. you know, you're around the same people, you're there's so many things that make. it very difficult to really change your.

life outside of escaping briefly and. getting a look at it from you know some. >> so like I gain like like smooth out all. the ruts. >> I gain I've never done it so I can't. really speak to this but from the people. that have done it what they explain that. it does first of all it actually stops. physical addiction somehow they don't. totally understand how it's doing this. but it stops physical addiction and sort. of rewires the way your brain And for.

lack of a better term, looks at. addiction. It also is it's not a drug. that you could abuse recreationally. Apparently, it's not a fun time. And. it's a 24-hour experience. And this. 24-hour experience, >> is it psychedelic? >> Yes. And this 24-hour experience is. essentially a review of your life and. showing you like, you remember this. happened and these guys beat you up. after school and then that sent you down. this road and then this is why you think. about this and this and it like lays out.

why you're in all these different [ __ ]. up patterns in your life. >> Do you have a like a spirit guide? >> I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I. think it's. >> I've gained counsel. >> You mean while you're doing it? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they have. centers. What is the place called in. Mexico that uh former Republican. Governor Rick Perry is an advocate of. this, right? >> And he went to that is it beyond B E O N. D? >> Um they have to they've for the longest.

time they've been doing these things. down in Mexico because it's legal there, >> right? Does do something similar? Yes, that's a lot of people go down to Costa. Rica and do that. Or there's certain. churches that have a religious exemption. in America, >> right? >> Which is wild. >> What? What? >> You go to church and really meet Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Like for real, for real. Like, are you. ready? >> Utah, Wyoming. And. >> like New Mexico, you know, places like. that is like, you know, somewhere where. like, well, how many followers you got? You got 1400. All right. Well, don't get.

too big. >> I've been to a church in a couple. basements. Like, >> really? Well, you know, the weird thing is if. anybody wants to start a new church now, like, good luck. They'll crawl up your. [ __ ] ass with a microscope. Like, if. you want to start a new church now, it. better be a Christian church. Like, you. better be following the same religions. that the people have been following for. thousands and thousands of years. Cuz if. you try to cook up a new religion today, they will wakeo you, son. They will. [ __ ]. >> Well, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean,

>> you get a good following. religions, they get weirder and weirder. I don't. like in America, they they get weirder. and weirder kind of the more west we. went, the more we manifest destiny out. >> because like you have like Puritan. pilgrims. >> land and you know in New England. >> and the weirdest of them move a little. bit more west or they just go to the. Quakers just go to like Nantucket, you. know, to be on an island and be.

isolated. But you know eventually in in. about a hundred years you've got. Mormons. >> Yep. >> You know and then give it another. hundred something years. Then you got. Scientology out in California. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Have you seen American Primeval? >> The Netflix series. >> No. >> Really good. Really good. >> And uh it's about you know the settling. of the West, but a big part of it is the. Mormons, >> right? how [ __ ] gangster the Mor We. think of Mormons as being like these.

really sweet people like Uh-uh. >> No, not back then. >> No, no, no, no. Nothing was in the West, man. It was it was death and car like. >> like uh I don't know. I I imagine it. like blood meridian like like McCarthy's. McCarthy's book where basically. you know like follows a story of like. this kid who goes on a scalping mission. you know where their their job is to go. down into Guadalajara and then come up. in through the states and they just they. scalp pretty much everyone they meet.

indiscriminately and then take those. scalps back for dough. It's like you. know for a bounty. >> which is crazy. How much is a scalp's. worth? >> I don't I don't know. >> Imagine that. You just find some dude. who's like [ __ ]. taking care of a lawn or something like. that or taking over. my scalp. >> Some people lived. >> grow back. Yeah. >> People that lived really crazy. >> I've seen that picture like someone had. been. >> Guy had a top hat on over this giant.

>> wound. >> wound over the top of his head which. >> I wonder how long he lived cuz he. basically had like an open. skull like facing the earth. I I guess. you play dead while it's going. >> I don't. Maybe they just let him live. I. don't know, man. This episode is brought. to you by Zip Recruiter. There is such a. thing as having too many options to. choose from. Like when you're scrolling. on the TV trying to find something to. watch or have you been to one of those. ice cream shops where they have hundreds. of different toppings to choose from?

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Again, that's. ziprecruiter.com/roganogen. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Chihuahua's bounty program. Fortune. offered fortune seekers 150 to 200. Mexican pesos for each Apache depending. on age and sex. Men worth 50 pesos more. than women and children. and children. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Today, that equates to about. $8,200 per scalp. >> Yeah. So, >> which is far more than most prospectors.

would ever make in the California gold. fields. $8,000 per scalp. That's crazy. >> Yeah. >> How many people just innocent people. that just happen to have dark hair got. scalped. >> and Oh, they would. And like in in. McCarthy's book at least, which he it. follows the Glanton gang. I'm pretty. sure at times they kill some of their. own gang. >> I'm sure. >> uh just because they were they were. dark-haired. The most prolific of these. operatives was an Irish American named.

James Kirker who led a massacre of more. than 150 Apaches in 1846 and ultimately. killed at least 320 Indians during his. bounty hunting campaigns. scalp trade, $8,200. for scalps. You imagine like if you if you have a. lawless country, which is essentially. what the Wild West was. >> That was Yeah. >> And then you you offer up $8,000.

every time you kill a person. >> Yeah. >> Woo. You can get rid of people quick. >> And you're going to have the wildest of. the wild are going to go out there and. tame that land, man. >> The craziest of the crazy. And that's. essentially. >> calls him calls him out. >> The. And that wasn't that long ago. That's. what's so crazy. >> You know, we're talking about 150 years. >> Like what is it? But how long ago was. it? >> Not that long ago.

>> In California, scalp warfare as. eliminated nearly 90% of some tribal. populations. Holy [ __ ] man. Were they. doing that into the 1890s? >> Yeah, >> that's crazy. >> Yeah, >> that's 135 years ago. >> How How crazy is that? >> It's pretty wild. >> That's hard to believe. >> You uh. >> direct government support for bounty.

payouts. Whoa. Direct government support. for bounty payouts with blunt calls for. the extermination of tribes and mass. murder of men, women, and children. provides an important new perspective on. the question of genocide across the long. arc of Euroamerican interaction with. native communities. The Apache scalp that FBI agents seized. in 2022 is one of thousands, perhaps. tens of thousands that were taken, redeemed, displayed in rare cases like. this one, preserved as a part of a long.

and gruesome history of scalp warfare. So. So it was in an auction house. That's. how they found it. Whoa. FBI investigating Apache scalp seized. from Fairfield auction house. The item. was seized from the pollen uh art. antiques and auction house as part of an. investigation into the illegal. trafficking of human remains.

Whoa. A. >> and like when. >> imagine someone kept that. >> When does the karma come in on on this. bloodshed that found that you know that. founded? >> Well, I'm certain that it did for the. individuals involved. >> I just I wonder if it's generational if. if these things. if the if the universe will continue to. sort itself out. >> Well, I think. >> over this over this time. I think this.

is a very unique time for understanding. people. You know, we I think. we we have to, you know, when people. look at all the the conflict and all the. the drama with human beings right now, you have to realize like, yes, yes, we. could certainly live better lives and we. certainly have we can certainly have a. better civilization than we have right. now. We can do better, but we also have. to realize what we're coming from. like. to make an adjustment from 1890 to 2025.

I mean, this is a big swing of this. [ __ ] battleship. >> People were horrible all throughout. human history. And I think that's what. we really have to come to grips with. >> It's not just I mean, we can go back to. the Mongol invasions in the the 19 what. was what is year the year 1200. How long. ago was that? What year was that. with the Mongols? I think it was in the. 1200s.

>> Yeah. >> You know, I mean, the Inquisition, we. can we can go to World War I, World War. II. People were [ __ ] horrible. forever, and it's just more people are talking. about it now than ever before. You know, you had universities in America, which. were the the anti-war movement started. in the 1960s and the hippies and they. were starting to get acid and realize. like there's more to life. Like, this is. [ __ ] the way our parents are living. is [ __ ] They're miserable and. they're going to die and. >> yeah,

>> it's it takes a long time to turn this. big ass battleship around. But I think. we have to give ourselves some. understanding about the past and and. realize like part of the reason why. we're so [ __ ] up today is like look. what we come from, >> right? >> Yeah. I look where we come from. I know. we can do better. We definitely can do. better. We should do better. We could we. should have a way better life, way. better society. But look where we come. from, >> right? We come from madness. >> Yeah. Absolute chaos. Chaos and. bloodshed, my friend.

>> It's just the the ability that a person. has to sign off a person in the. government say, "Yeah, okay. Give them. some money so they go kill some Indians. indiscriminately. Give them uh $8,000 per scalp and a. little less for the women and children.". >> Mhm. you know, 130 years ago, 140 years ago, 150 years ago. That's that's nothing, man. >> Right. >> That's nothing. You know, that's your. great grandpa. He was alive back then.

Hard to believe. >> It's far out. And. >> it really is, man. I've I I wonder if. things are, you know, probably seem a lot cleaner. as far as chaos and bloodshed now in the. continental. US and the union and stuff, but who. is sending folks to go do that abroad.

>> to to protect the homeland, you know, under the under the opaces of. protecting the homeland. >> who's doing the exact same thing. >> as they were doing then just in a. different way. >> because I really I really think we we we. stay this as much as has changed and and. we can measure that we could totally cam. but I think also we stay the same you. know. >> well until we're forced to change yeah. and that. >> until something or until we recognize.

the need to change collectively. >> but there has to be discussion of it. It's not something that just organically. happens, you know. >> I I think of like. uh do you ever see a this Hollywood, but. uh Apocalypse Now? >> Sure. with is it Francis Ford Copela and. >> he's got like Martin Sheen and Marlon. Brando and. Dennis Hopper and Robert Duval and all.

those cool cats and dope movie but it's. written on this. premise of a of a book that was written. in like 1899 by Joseph Conrad like Heart. of Darkness. >> Oh wow. It's that old. And Heart of. Darkness. was talking about. a conquest of I believe the Dutch, I'm. not sure, into the Congo.

and some atrocities and stuff that were. happening there, treating people as. subhuman. And I don't know if there was. I don't know if there was scalping or. anything, but I think that there was. slavery and that sort of thing. But. Copela was able to adapt that and then. put the Vietnam War as the new premise. going into I think they I think Sheen's. mission and in the in the movie at least.

was to go. up river into. Cambodia or Laos, I'm not sure which, and take out a rogue. US general who had basically enslaved a. population of uh. of indigenous there. All that to say, like I I wonder if like. in in Vietnam if if if the folks.

fighting out there felt like in that. moment in that moment where you're where. you're killing somebody, if you realize at that point that. nothing has ever changed. and that this is this is. this is there's something primeval in in. man with this violence that this. violence violence is innate. or you know is this violence innate? Is.

it is this how folks are and there's no. helping it and there's nothing that's. ever going to change it? because you can. get kind of cynical that way or. and I and I kind of tend on this more. idealistic and at times it seems naive. or stupid to have an ideal that folks. can could live in harmony in peace. without taking one another's lives. You. know,

the problem is they've never done it. before. >> I that's that's mindboggling. mindboggling. >> because it is in all I think it's in a. in a lot of us deep down to I don't. >> well it has to be. >> because that's the only way we survived. that's the only way we got to where we. are today right. >> cuz we existed before language we. existed before empathy before we. understood each other before we can. communicate so any being that you didn't. know from somewhere else wanted what you.

had and they would try to take it by. force so the bigger stronger one. survived and that's why the best. genetics kept going and going and going. I mean, it was just survival of the. fittest. It exists in nature and exists. with humans. And that's the basis of our. DNA, unfortunately. Like, that's how we. started, right? And so, that the way it. manifests itself today is [ __ ] drone. warfare and bombs and, you know, dropping bunker busters out of B2s. >> You know, that's what it is. Or B12. Is.

that what it is? The B12. What's the big. one? >> B2. >> B2. Feels like it should be a bigger. number because it looks like a. spaceship. >> You see how they flew it over Putin? Like, look at my dick. My flying dick. >> You see Trump did that when Putin was in. Alaska. They flew a a bomber over his. head. Like, what are we doing? Why are. we flying Why are we flying the radar. resistant bomber over Putin's head?

>> This is It sounds like a show of force. >> Look at my dude. Yeah, >> this is what these games. But like. is it Yeah. I I just I I wonder is it. within. humans. to to exist in like in in peace without. without. >> Well, we certainly can be done. >> in small groups, right? Like if you, me, and Jamie I've said this before, but you. know about other guests. If we were on.

an island all together, we wouldn't lock. each other up. We wouldn't. We just We. just figured out like, "Yeah, okay. I'm. going to go fishing today. Uh, we need. firewood. You want to get the firewood? >> I'm going to go for a long jog.". >> Okay, get that jog in. Get your cardio. in. >> You know, but you know what I'm saying? Like, we wouldn't There was There's only. a limited amount of us. We wouldn't have. a need to go to war. And most war today. is about resources. Most war today is. about controlling parts of the world.

where there's an infinite amount of. money in the ground. Whether it's oil or. now it's rare earth minerals and stuff. they need for batteries. And. >> that's what a lot of it is. I mean, that's what a lot of the conflict is in. this world. And that's gross. It's. scary. It's scary. But if you ask the. average person like, "What are the odds. that there will be no more war in your. lifetime?" And they'll say 0%. Yeah, >> everyone will say 0%. >> It's so far out. It's just I like I.

think it you know the folks that that go. to war like if you. if you signed up and went to and went to. Iraq and you know in like 0. 03 06 or so you know and you're securing. or no maybe not Iraq but you're going to. Afghanistan and you're securing. opium fields. and stuff and you're out there you're. risking your life. You got the gun on.

You are prepared to take somebody's. life. But for but for what? And and like. >> we need opium. What are you asking? >> But we'll fight. We we'll fight. >> We'll fight. It seems like for the sake of just for. the sake of the hunt or or something. like that. >> If you asked the soldiers when they were. signing up, hey, do you want to go to. Afghanistan and guard Poppy Fields? They've been like, "What? No. I want to. fight terrorism,

>> [ __ ] I want to stop the people. that did 9/11 from doing it again.". That's why a lot of people signed up. >> But then the reality kicks in once. you're standing around Poppy Fields with. a machine gun and you're like, "Oh, >> yeah. >> Oh, this is a scam.". >> And you know, I don't know how much. internet access they had while they were. over there, but if they did and they. ever Googled, "What percentage of all. heroin comes from Afghanistan?". >> The answer they would have got is 94%. >> Yeah. they would have been like, "Wait, >> what is this?". >> So then it takes it takes a larger it it.

it takes essentially a scop in order to. get men to fight for the interests of. the people who are performing the scop. >> Yes. You have to create a scop that puts. a narrative out there that makes it. noble for us to be doing what we're. doing. >> Noble. We're such suckers. It's a noble. cause. What's more noble than letting. somebody live? >> Yeah, we're less suckers now than ever. before, but yes, a lot of us are suckers.

for these narratives. >> Well, I'm I'm I'm I'm a sucker for it. Everyone is. >> Did you ever read um that uh War is a. racket? Smmedley Butler Butler. >> Did you ever read it? >> No. >> It's really good. It's not long. Yeah, >> it's really good. And it is essentially. outlining what we're talking about, but. it was in 1933, >> right? Right. And then Smemedley Butler. who when he went to all these places and. did all these war he thought that he was.

doing good. He thought he was protecting. people even though. >> but then at the end of his career when. it all like the fog of war had kind of. faded and he recognized the pattern. It's like oh each time pull it up Jimmy. just so we can get a look at. >> the one where there was a coup and they. had asked him to. >> they asked him to take they asked him to. overthrow the [ __ ] government United. States of America. a documentary I used. to watch uh by Francis O' Connelly, I. think is his name, but it's called. Everything's a Rich Man's Trick, and he. would always talk about Smemedley Deb.

Butler. >> Yeah, he was a bad man. Um in in a good. way, but this this thing that he wrote. um see just a. if you get just go to the Wikipedia. site, Warsra, it. >> says I mean this before even World War. II. >> There it is right there. It contains. this summary. Make that a little larger, please. A scope. >> Who makes the profits? >> It says, "War is a racket. It always has. been. It's possibly the oldest, easily. the most profitable, surely the most. vicious. It's the only one international.

in scope. It is the only one in which. profits are reckoned in dollars and the. losses and lives. A racket is best. described, I believe, as something that. is not what it seems to be to the. majority of people. >> Only a small inside group knows what. it's all about. It's conducted for the. benefit of the very few at the expense. of the very many. Out of war, a few people make huge. fortunes. Butler confessed that during. his decades of service in the United. States Marine Corps, I helped Mexico,

especially Tampa, safe for American oil. interests. In 1914, I helped make Haiti. and Cuba a decent place for the national. city bank boys to collect revenues in. I. helped in the raping of half a dozen. Central American republics for the. benefit of Wall Street. The record of. racketeering is long. I helped purify. Nicaragua for the International Banking. House of Brown Brothers in 1909 to 1912. where I've learned where have I heard of. that name before? I don't know. Uh I.

brought light to the I brought light to. the Domin Dominican Republic for. American Sugar Interest in 1916 in. China. I helped see to it that Standard. Oil went its way unmolested. Looking. back on it, I have given Al Capone I. might have given Alapone a few hints. >> Kind of crazy. >> Yeah, >> cuz they've been doing that forever. And. if it wasn't for this one guy writing.

about it, this one very decorated man. who pull up the thing about the coup. where they tried to enlist him, which is. part of the reason why I'm sure he wrote. this. Like he was like, "What the [ __ ]. is this?". >> Right? >> Like you guys want you guys want to take. over the United States government with. force. >> now? Imagine if they were successful. >> Imagine if a military coup really did. work in like 1930 or whatever it was. how [ __ ] we would be now. >> I don't know. It'd be.

>> like It's interesting how history pivots. often times like one or two crucial. figures, >> right? >> And this guy saying no to this. Who. knows what would have happened if he. said yes. >> Is that the premise of Man in the High. Castle? Philip K. Dick. >> Is it? >> I don't know. I should read more, Joe. I. guess. >> the business plot. Is that what we're. talking about? Not the coup. >> The coup. We're talking about the coup.

>> I know. Nothing in his Wikipedia says. coup, but business plot comes up at the. end. >> What is the business plot? >> Um, that's what I think he was talking. about. This was all milit like the. military-industrial complex stuff before. it started, >> right? But wasn't there a thing where. they tried to enlist him to do. something? >> I think I mean this was after he was. retired. He's gone on anti-war lectures. goes into his whole career here and coup. wasn't like a a highlighted paragraph. >> Is that just in Wikipedia though? >> Can you just see if uh there's anything.

about online because it might not be. something that Wikipedia would put in. >> He had a whole bunch of nicknames. >> Did he? >> Did you see that whole list of. >> You kill a lot of folks. You get a lot. of nicknames. >> Gee whiz. It's it's so weird to to see when you. think about going what's that. >> then business plot pops up. >> People used to have fun nicknot business. plot. >> So was a business plot. So it's not. necessarily like a military coup like. what was the actual plot? >> The Wall Street push.

>> political conspiracy in 1933 the United. States to overthrow Oh it is overthrow. the government of the President Franklin. D. Roosevelt Roosevelt and install. Smemedley Butler as dictator. Butler, retired Marine Corps's major general, testified under oath that we wealthy. businessmen were plotting to create a. fascist veterans organization with him. as its leader and use it as a coup. d'etat to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the. United States House of Representatives.

special committee on unamerican. activities. on these revelations. Although no one. was prosecuted, the Congressional Comm. was prosecuted. You would think that. that might put you in jail. You're. trying to overthrow the [ __ ]. government. >> These folks get away with it. >> It's kind But it's kind of crazy. No one. was prosecuted. Although no one was. prosecuted. The congressional committee. final report said there's no question. these attempts were discussed were. planned and might have been placed in. execution when and if the financial.

backers deemed it expedient. You know, it's funny that no one was prosecuted, but if you did insider trading, you go. straight to the pokey. Martha Stewart, >> right? >> No one was prosecuted for that. They put. Martha Stewart in jail for lying to the. cops, >> but not. but there's actual, you know, there's. Congress Congress folks that do it all. the time. They made an example out of. the out of Martha Stewart, I suppose. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, there's. Nancy Pelosi's now estimated to be worth.

$400 million. you know, and that she's just the. >> great job. >> It's a great job. >> What a great job to have. >> I should have gone into. >> What makes you wonder when you have $400. million and you're 82 years old, shouldn't you be like going on cruises. and just like enjoying your time off and. why are you still working? >> What are you doing? >> The lust for power. >> No, I really care about. >> these people are clinging with the with. their dying breath to to every ounce of. power. >> No, no, no. I care I care about the.

American people. Who who really genuinely believes that. anybody cares about us? >> Oh, there's some labbotomized, no, no. pun intended, suckers out there. >> No, >> there's some suckers out there. And then. there's a lot of bots. There's a lot of. people that aren't real people um that. are. >> commenting on both sides of. >> the internet. Yeah. >> On both sides of it. >> Stay out of the comments, kids. Stay out. of commentary because it's not real. you're if you're you're interacting with.

narratives that are are propped up might. be propped up by AI, might be propped up. by bad state actors. There's a lot going. on, folks. And it's it's not all people. talking about things and that should be. illegal. >> Are there bot wars now? >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. There's bots. fighting against bot versus your bots. >> 100%. It's probably a giant chunk of the. internet. >> Are they actual bots or are they like. people in a call center? >> Both things. like. >> bold things bold things are real.

There's AI for sure that people are. running programs that are that are. saying certain things and. >> but there's also people that get hired. to do it, you know, there's some these. pro-American sites, you know, and then. people have done like an IP trace and. they find out these people are in. [ __ ] Karach, >> they're [ __ ] Pakistan and. >> it's, you know, they're they're in. India, they're in China. It's like, who. knows who's doing it and why they're. doing it, but there's a bunch of foreign. countries that would have a vested.

interest in keeping America very. unstable. You know, it's really good to. to have us out each other's throats. politically. That's good for them. It's. it's good to crush our uh faith in. democracy and make people consider. communism. And it gets it gets really. weird, you know, when you have a bunch. of people that are throwing a bunch of. opinions into any sort of like real. important discussion about civilization. and you realize like, oh my god, 80% of.

the people talking aren't just people. >> Yeah. >> They're either being hired to do this or. it's AI or they're bots. It seems to be. like manufactured chaos. >> in order to take the air out of the room. to suffocate information. >> Also to make laws so they can clamp down. on disscent. >> Yeah. >> The more the more you can have chaos. online, the more it becomes. unmanageable, the more you have to. manage it.

>> Right. Right. >> Right. And the more people ask you to. come in and save them. Please save us. Save us from this. There should be laws. Hate speech shouldn't be legal. >> That's kind of the idea behind like the. like false flag. >> gun gun things or like u. >> I don't know. I think. >> that's what got us into Vietnam. >> I think like Vegas. >> Yeah, >> like the Mandalay Bay thing. Like. there's a lot behind. >> That's a weird one. That's a weird one. That one's going to I that's going to.

bother me forever. That cuz that one. actually happened while I was awake and. paying attention and and and it just. nothing nothing lines up with it. >> You weren't there, were you? Were you in. Vegas at the time? >> No, no, >> no. I was sitting in Nashville, but I. just met I was. >> I was paying attention. >> Yeah, that was a crazy one. Um, and. there's multiple reports of more than. one person shooting. And then there was. like, how did he get 400 pounds of.

equipment into his room without anybody. noticing it? >> Yeah, >> that seems crazy. Like you got a rifle. case is a very distinctive kind of case. Like I'm assuming he's carrying like, you know, some kind of Pelican box. So. like something some snap down box. Like. that's a pretty big box, man. If you got. a bunch of those and you're bringing. them in along with boxes of ammunition, like. >> how much does that weigh? How strong are. you? How, you know, like if you had to. carry 400 lb of [ __ ] into a hotel room,

>> that dude. >> that would take a long time. >> That dude wasn't doing all of it. >> That's what I'm saying. >> And I mean, didn't like the security. guard witness go on Ellen to explain it? >> Did they? >> Yeah. Was that was his name Jesus? >> Y. >> Yeah. Campos. >> Jamie's all over this. Are you I've been. all over this from the jump. >> Okay. There's a few This is the one This. is one of the ones I know a lot of. >> Well, speak to us, young Jamie. >> There's You haven't said anything wrong.

yet, but. >> uh there's a really good website someone. put together called like the Las Vegas. shootingmap.com. >> and they've got tracked little uh it's a. Google map, but there's like little dots. for YouTube videos, cell phone footage, 911 recordings, photos. It's a complete. timeline from the like time before the. concert started to like five days after. >> What is the best theory about why that. happened? >> Conspiracy or real? >> Was it a conspiracy? Give me the the. juiciest one first.

>> Conspiracy that you read online like. especially on a place like uh X.com. would be that there was a let me try to. word this right. Uh, I think they were. worried about um the Saudi family or. whoever's in control in Saudi Arabia was. worried about NBS taking over and there. was an event happening that he was in. Vegas for and they tried to use this. chaos to take him out. >> Whoa. >> He found out about it and then this. leads to this uh event happening the. next month in November where he got all. these all the families to come to uh. Four Seasons. There was like uh.

kidnappings and extortions and all sorts. of money. Like he basically was pissed. that he found out about it. Oh, that. happened a month later. >> Yeah. >> Whoa. >> Like people have heard about that event. happening, but tying it to the Las Vegas. shooting. Not a lot of people have done. I just read about that part recently. >> Holy [ __ ] dude. >> But how? There's not a lot of proof of. any of that happening, but that's the. conspiracy. >> I thought it was like metal detectors in. the casinos. >> I mean, that that's part of part of it. People thought that they were trying to. create an event so people would have to. get body scanned in every casino.

>> because it because there were people in. the state government that had stock in. these in these security systems. >> Oh god, >> that's I mean it's diabolical. >> God, I hope that's not true. >> Um but there was apparently like there's. shells that were found in places that. were outside of that hotel room. Um. >> outside of the hotel room. >> Yeah. Or away from those windows. Some. people think that the second window was. broken after the fact. >> That one don't make no sense. That's. just. >> And he died of a self-inflicted gunshot.

wound allegedly. Right. >> Yeah. That's. >> So is the idea that he's a psy. >> I guess that's I mean if you're going to. follow that conspiracy I just laid out. 100% you'd have to be. >> But again there's not a ton of evidence. for that one. There's some. >> Wow. >> A ton. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Mysteries. >> What's the other uh theories? >> Enigmas. sort of what he was getting. into where it's like there was this like. tie in to just get body scanners. everywhere. >> That one makes sense. >> Then the one the funnest one I'll show. you a picture of. You know how there's.

like a playing deck of cards that's got. like every conspiracy from like the last. 20 years in it. Have you seen that going. around? >> No. >> It's like the Twin Towers are in one. picture. And the one with Vegas I'll. show you. It's very Sam Tripley pointed. this out to me the other day. I'll show. you. >> You ever get into the Oklahoma City. bombing? I'm I'm familiar. >> That one gets familiar. That one gets. real. >> We got Ruby Ridge, Waco. >> Tim doing his thing possibly with the. team.

>> Yeah, those are all big. But the what. I'm getting at. What is this? >> This is the card, the playing deck. cards. This is the Vegas card. It's got. this uh It says that there. >> Is that a tattoo? >> This is Jason Aldine's tattoo. Who was. the guy on stage when the shooting. started? What. >> just so happens to be it's a jack and. the ace. Now that's a coincidence, but. that's a crazy coincidence. It's like how that could have been. planned. Don't know. >> Yeah, but that's his [ __ ] name, bro. Jason Line. That's ridiculous. That's a. crazy connection to make. His literal.

name is Jason L. J. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a microphone and a and a. jack and an ace. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> With a J and an A on it. >> That's wild. So. >> that's silly. That's silly. >> That one That one needs to be shut up. >> That's f That's outrageous. >> Yeah. But. it's just. when you think that someone might have. done something like that, someone might.

do a mass shooting so they could take. out one dude, like blame it. >> Yeah. >> On this guy, like how much planning has. to be involved in that? And then like. how do you get the paths? You get this. guy who's just like a a degenerate. gambler. That's what he was, right? He. was just a poker player, right? >> Made a bunch of money playing video. poker, which is like, >> if you make that much money playing. video poker, they're not going to let. you keep playing. >> Really? >> Dana made money playing blackjack and. they're like, "You can't play here. anymore." Like, if you're good and. you're making money, they say, "We don't. want you to do that.".

>> Yeah, they booted Dana out of the Palms. back in the day. That's what it was with. the Palms, I think. Um, >> but with like I don't know, OKC was that. to destroy information? Is that the is. that the conspiracy. there that that like in the Oklahoma. City bombing there was there was info in. the building that they wanted perhaps. >> cuz I know some of Bill Clinton's stuff. maybe disappeared. >> I don't know the specifics on that, but. what I was getting at was the specifics.

of the bomb itself. um that a fertilizer. bomb would not be able to do that kind. of destruction. And that destruction was. the way a bomb generally works like it. goes from this is where the bomb. detonates and then all the energy goes. outward, right? >> If you are parked. right in front of a building, how does. the building blow outward this way? And. why were there all these reports of the. FBI. >> and U bomb units pulling additional.

undetonated bombs from the building, >> right? >> Like look at how the building blew out. >> I know that's. >> it's kind of crazy. >> Absolute devastation. >> I mean, but it really depends entirely. on the size of the bomb, right? So if. you have a bomb like see where that blue. area is like that's where supposedly I. think where the bomb went off. If you. have an immense bomb that is right there. and it just blows up and that's the. force of it all around like in a sort of. conical effect that kind of makes sense. But a lot of people um think that the.

amount of power that you would generate. from a fertilizer bomb is not really. capable of doing that kind of damage. did the. >> and Al Alex Jones uh who. was the first person that I ever heard. talk about this. >> Yeah. >> He played all these news reports of them. talking about. finding additional bombs, >> right? >> Like it was on the news. So they were. talking about the the FBI or whoever it.

was. >> Was the ATF in that building? >> I believe something like that. Maybe. they would have had. >> some information. Was also they changed. some of the laws after that bombing. >> It some explosives could have been in. their possession even or something. >> Oh, that like it it blew up because of. the other thing blowing up. >> I mean. >> perhaps. But they didn't say that. And. it's it's pretty odd that the ATF. offices would have just bombs laying. around. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That doesn't really make any sense. Like. why do you guys have bombs in the break.

room? >> You're studying. >> Yeah, we're studying actual live bombs. I don't think so. That doesn't make any. sense. They're pretty good about taking. care of bombs. Um, but see if you can. find anything about uh reports of. additional bombs from Oklahoma City. >> I know there was they were looking for a. second person for a while. >> Yeah, they were looking for a second. person, too. >> But I mean that there's also this. problem with uh the fog of eyewitness. accounts and everything after a a. catastrophe. Like one thing that happens.

about events is no one really like if. you're there and some [ __ ] thing. blows up. It's it's entirely dependent. upon your makeup whether or not you can. even objectively recall exactly what. happened. >> Depending upon like. >> how freaked out you are by this and how. used to being freaked out you are. Like. maybe you're a veteran, maybe you've. served overseas and like you can. actually give an accurate account of. this because you you've been around. crazy [ __ ] But if you haven't, it's.

very likely that you know pe people are. very confused afterwards. >> I would have been totally shook. >> No credible evidence of additional bombs. being found. Um initial confusion. This. is AI over you. AI. Uh in the immediate aftermath of the AI. AI, by the way, that still thinks the. COVID vaccine saved millions of lives. In the immediate aftermath of the. bombing, some news reports and. individuals speculated about multiple. explosions. Okay. news reports. Why.

would they say that if there was no. reason to say that? Um, conflicting. reports. Some theories suggested a. second, even third bomb were involved, citing nearby seismograph readings and. witness accounts. >> Seismograph. >> So, there was multiple seismograph. readings. Uh, experts expert. disagreement. Oh, I love when they call. in the experts. However, experts. including physic physicists and. engineers that are not named stated that. the second tremor recorded by the size.

of grass was likely caused by the. buildings collapsed, not another bomb. Go to sleep, America. Conspiracy. theories. Some conspiracy theorists. continued to promote the idea of. additional bombs even though there was. news reports often citing discrepancies. in the observed damage or expert. opinions. Yeah, the observed damage is. kind of crazy. The damage is kind of. crazy. >> Yeah, >> it looks like it's blown out, >> you know. >> It's a It's a huge huge demo job, man.

>> Well, it's just weird, >> you know? It's And it's his Timothy. McVeyy's reason for doing it. All of it. is weird, >> right? >> Like, >> wasn't it was revenge for the. government's intervention with Ruby. Ridge and the. >> Waco? Right. Right. >> So, he was going to take on that. I. mean, how many extremist organizations. get infiltrated by the government when. they find some suckers? >> Well, didn't they didn't they find like. the folks who were going to kidnap the.

governor or something? It was just like, wasn't it all the gov? Like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was 12 out of. 14 people. >> Yeah. >> Were government agents? >> Oh. >> So then who? >> And then those two guys went to jail. >> So the two the two that weren't. >> Yeah. Exactly. And the two that weren't, it wasn't even their idea. They were. like dorks that were laring. Yeah, man. We're going to blow up the government. They're [ __ ] losers. They wanted. friends, you know? They wanted friends. and they found friends and these. extremists.

>> And they thought that these guys, you. know, they [ __ ] meet up, talk about. kidnapping the governor. Like, they. thought it was all [ __ ] Those guys. literally said they thought we were. never going to do this. >> Yeah. >> And then the feds come knocking on their. door. Well, one of the wildest ones, they uh radicalized this young guy. He. was 19 years old. I believe it was in. Dallas. They radicalized him and then. they gave him a bomb that was fake and. then gave him a cell phone to detonate. the bomb. And then when he deton when he. tried to use the cell phone to detonate.

the bomb, they arrested him because even. though it was fake, even though it. didn't work, even though they gave it to. him, even though they talked him into. doing it, right, >> they arrested him for terrorism because. he was willing to listen to them, >> which is crazy. >> Why do you do that? >> Well, also, you're doing it to a young. guy who probably like this is the first. time in his life he felt like he had any. purpose. like you've mind [ __ ] him. into believing that he's doing this for. a greater good. >> You know, you're you're mind [ __ ] him.

to telling him that like, you know, he's. gonna put a dent in the great Satan by. detonating this bomb and you're going to. go down in history. You're going to be. huge and and he's just a dumb guy. Just. a dumb dude who they talk into it and. then they arrest him like we stop. terrorism. You [ __ ] made it, [ __ ]. You made it. And then. >> the problem, fix the problem. It's kind. of like the pharmaceutical industry or. something. >> Well, it's a pattern. >> Yeah, >> it's a pattern that but it's just a. weird one that we that we tolerate under.

the rule of law. Like that seems pretty. crazy that you guys made a plot to. kidnap the governor. You got 12 12 out. of 14 of the people who were involved. were working with the government. And then. you know it should be like okay whose. idea was it? It was Mike's idea. He was. the first one to say, "Mike, you work. for the government." This is crazy, Mike. You can't arrest Tom because it. was your idea, Mike. You [ __ ]. [ __ ] But yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was.

working for the government. I mean, he's. like, "Okay, I'm fine." Right. >> Right. >> And then he gets They all get just. disappear. Nobody hears them. Nobody. knows their name. Nobody knows who they. are. They're probably doing it right now. somewhere else. >> I mean, they they go into the private. sector. They're they're with. >> I don't know. Who knows? >> Over with uh. >> I mean, who knows who was instructing. them to do? >> Sure. Who knows who was instructing them. to do what they were doing in the first. place? Like, why did you guys decide. that you're going to kidnap the. governor? Did is there higher-ups.

>> that told you this was a good idea to. plot this? >> Like, what are we trying to I just. wonder how much within those. within even these buildings like. what's the communication like in a huge. organization like the FBI or something? Are there are there people over on floor. two that have no idea what's going on on. floor 4? >> 100%. >> You know, >> 100%. >> And. >> yeah, 100%. just pockets pockets of.

intelligence, little microcosms of. of people working, you know. >> Well, talking to people that actually. work in the government, they'll tell you. there are people that are in charge of. each individual office and they're like. a zar of this office. You got to get. through them. >> and they could put the kibos on anything. you're trying to do and they're hiding. information from the rest of the office, hiding information from other agencies. I yeah when I was a kid I dated this.

girl who worked for the government and. one of her jobs was this was like really. the be very beginning of computers so 91. maybe somewhere around then maybe two. maybe 92 and her job was to help uh. distribute information say if the navy. did a study that the army would have. access to it you know so it was all on a. database so this was like really really. early on. >> because they didn't share information.

with each other. >> But they still don't share information. >> now. They're in competition with each. other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Some of them don't like each. other. Like there's agencies that don't. let those [ __ ] [ __ ] over at the. CIA and those [ __ ] over at the FBI. Like there's like a lot of that stupid. [ __ ] that goes on. There's a lot of that. stupid [ __ ] that goes on. Just like. there's people that root for the [ __ ]. Dolphins and other people root for the. Raiders. People get tribal. People get. really weird, man. And they get tribal. with every damn thing that they do.

Every damn thing that they do. And then. it's us against them. And you know we're. Xerox is going to take over the copying. world. [ __ ] all those other [ __ ]. >> It's like it's like as above so below, man. The part the the patterns the. patterns go down forever. Yeah. >> Well, we have the patterns of. territorial apes. That's the problem. We. have the the consistent patterns of. territorial apes and those patterns find. their way into everything. Yeah. >> They find their way into. >> [ __ ] poetry slams. >> I mean it's it's that music's like that.

>> for sure. Right. >> Comedy's like that to. >> it is to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. And in. some certain circles it is. In certain. circles it's not. Um but it's uh. >> it's like that with everything. Everyone. is fighting for dominance. >> Yeah. Yeah. In this really gross, weird. way. And I think it's just our genetics. I think it's our the pattern of how we. got here for the first place and how the. human reward systems are all set up.

>> They're set up to to try to conquer. things. And you know, whether you're. conquering video game development or. [ __ ] you're making the the best. folding phone, it's like we're going to. kick ass over Google. You know, like. everybody has their own little thing, their little realm they're trying to. conquer, >> right? And it feels great. >> No, I don't think it does. >> You don't think it feels great to kick. ass at something? Well, >> I mean, you want like I think. >> certain I mean certainly does the. >> pursuit of excellence is like the most. joy rendering thing that there is. >> that aspect of it. But the aspect of.

crushing your enemies. I wonder how much. fun. >> Well, you don't have to have like I. don't This is the thing is like playing. guitar or something. I don't have an. enemy. >> But you're an artist. You're not a. corporation. I just I I I'm a. corporation. >> Are you an LLC yet? >> Did you sign up for the Devil's Deal? >> What is. >> limited liability corporation? A lot of. people do. So. >> I I don't have a record deal and that's. what you're saying. >> No, no, no, no. When you start making.

money, they tell you to form an LLC. >> What is it going to do? >> It's like a you become like a little. corporation. And that way you pay. yourself from the corporation. You can. lease a car from the corporation. I I. that'd be kind of cool. >> You probably have to do that someday. eventually. >> I'll be in a court. >> Maybe after this podcast you'll have to. do that. >> I'll be. call bottomless wells. >> Um. I I that's the most fun. And it does.

seem like it is what anytime you're in. you're in a hard place or anything like. that mentally or. Yeah. Like the the best way out is like. find something to try to get good at or. try some you know and then try your best. at it. >> Yeah. >> Get and it just seems innate. >> I think so. >> Like no matter what it is, >> right? But the problem is if that thing. is making money, then it gets weird,

right? Like if your if your whole thing. you're good at and you try to get better. at is just making money, that's that's. when things get really squirly because. the same thing that makes you really. good at writing songs could make another. person like really good at being a. psychopath. >> because the best way to make money is to. be completely feelingless and not give a. [ __ ] about who this is going to impact. You know, ship all those jobs overseas. Look how much money we're going to make. Do this to that. [ __ ] all the listen, if. we don't. >> take care of this environmental.

pollutant and we just like let it leak. out, we save x amount of money. Okay, do. that. >> Right? >> Then that's that's where things get. weird. You figure out the best way to. make money. Like you're really good at. making money and that becomes your. creativity. You get really creative. about moving around the law in order to. make money. get really creative about. how you establish relationships with. people and how you can, you know, make. sure that laws are passed that favor. what you're doing. And. >> that's a strange art. >> Very weird art. That's a dark art.

>> That is that is the dark art. >> It's a dark art. >> Snape never taught about that one, dog. >> Well, it's not a creative art, but it is. creative in some ways. It it it taps. into that same thing, but in a very. negative way. you know, maybe positive. for that person's bank account, but. negative in terms of its impact. >> But do they even care about their bank. account at that? Like, what is it to. them? It's something totally different. >> That's the world they live in, man. Like, if you're a [ __ ] prison warden, the war the world you live in is like. these are the rules in order to be to.

stay alive as a prison warden. This is. what you're going to do. If you're a. prison guard, if you're on the floor. with all these inmates, this is what you. do to stay alive. This is what you do to. maintain order. this is what you do to. make sure people listen and fall in line. like that. >> once you're there that's you have to do. that right like if you're there if. you're if you're a prison guard this is. what you do. >> and I think if you are a guy who is in. charge of uh like you're an economic.

hitman like John Perkins you know that. you ever read that book. >> uh. >> uh what they do is they would give. enormous loans to countries that. definitely couldn't [ __ ] pay it off. and then you know you come in and start. extracting resources. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, China does that, the. United States does that. Many countries. have been involved in that kind of [ __ ]. and they're creative in that way. >> Are there NOS's doing that? >> I'm sure. >> Like, is that what. >> I'm sure. >> Is that what Oh, Billy Billy G's up to.

or. >> Billy G? >> Yeah. Uh Microsoft. Oh, >> like. >> well he's involved in a lot of the. >> Do you give a big loan or you know give. a big favor out and then take and then. just take whatever you want from them. after that because everyone's everyone's. got notes once they. >> Yeah. Well, it's called philanthrop. capitalism, you know, and that being a. philanthropist is actually very. profitable, >> which is weird.

>> No, I. >> like Bill Gates made hundreds of. millions of dollars off of the pandemic. >> Yeah. from just from vaccines. >> Dude, philanthropy. It's far out. I have. a song about philanthropy. >> Do you? >> It's called Philanthropist. >> Let's hear it. >> Put it on there. Put Jamie will find it. Um, you know, like real true. philanthropy when you're, you know, you're giving money away because you're. just a kind person. It's wonderful. It's. beautiful. You know, I like it when it's done. silently.

>> That's the only way to properly do it. Right. Here we go. >> When I was just a boy, my mama asked me. this. She said, "Son, what you want to. be?" I said, "A big philanthropist with. date as my oil and illness is my. business with guns as my retirement and. war as my mistress. I'm going to be an. oligarch with a whole bunch of rockets.

I'd get them two sides fighting and I'd. empty both of their pockets. And if I. got bored or money we. try my hand in dabbling in social. engineer and I'm going to be a. billionaire with a big foundation. We used to rule in shadows but I'd come. right out and I'd rule the nation. I'm. going to do my own laundry in a third. world nation state. Experiment with the. locals like some philanthropic saint and.

I never make a cure. Now I get you treatment plan. You can. die in slow installments and I'll bleed. you while I can. And I travel around the. planet. in a big old mystery jet. What I did. would be my business and what you did I. would collect. If I was a. philanthropist, just run around feeling. Not a whole lot of help just for myself,

but I got to make it look convincing. >> You nailed it. >> That's That's philanthrop capitalism. right there in a song. >> It's far out. >> That's a great song. >> It shouldn't be It shouldn't It. shouldn't be allowed. >> It shouldn't be allowed. Well, it. shouldn't be that easy to trick people. >> Who believes it? That's what I'm just. I'm like, who who in the hell would. >> would think that this is.

>> good things happen because of it? But. more bad things happen than good a lot. of the time. >> And you're holding an entire nation. hostage or an entire group of people. hostage by lending them money. >> Mhm. >> Well, that's not freedom. >> No, >> you got to be free. >> Yeah. It's uh it's real weird. um because there's certain people that. are like genuine philanthropists, but. even them when you're donating money to.

specific organizations and you find out. that most of their money goes to. overhead, right? >> Most of their money goes to employee. salaries, which are ridiculously high. >> And you go, "Oh, this is a scam. This is. clearly a scam." You aren't you aren't. kind people trying to fix the world. You're profiting off of this idea of. being a kind person that wants to fix. the world. Then you're doing a little. bit of help. You're doing about 10% of. help, maybe 20% of help, maybe even 30. for a good organization. >> But the reality is it's about you. >> Yeah. >> Which is crazy,

>> you know. Imagine if just you said, "Hey. man, my friend's sick. >> Do you think you could donate some money. to my friend, you know, because he he. doesn't have any health insurance?" And. we were like, "Yeah, man. What do we got. to do?" And then everybody gives you. money and then you take 70% of it. And. we go, "Hey, dude. What the fuck?" And. you're like, "Hey man, I worked. >> to get that money for him. I had to call. you guys. I really I put in the time. I. need some of that money. I need 70% of.

that money.". >> You'd be like, "What the [ __ ] are you. talking about? Your friends would never. talk to you again. Everybody would hate. you. >> But meanwhile, if you do this for an. NGO, you get celebrated, >> right? Insane. >> It's real. >> It It is insane. And it's real. The The. weirdest thing about it is this isn't a. conspiracy theory. >> This is real. This is really how most of. them operate. Some of it's 90%. Some of. them it's 9010. >> Yeah. >> There's good ones out there though.

There's really good ones that where most. of the money goes to the charity. And. that's awesome. There's real people out. there that are really kind people that. are genuine philanthropists and most of. them live very humble lives. >> Right. >> Because that's you don't make a million. dollars a year if you're doing it right. >> Right. >> You just don't. >> Right. >> You know, you just don't. And if you are. making a million dollars a year, chances are you might be a vampire. >> Yeah. What do you I mean that guy was.

all over the. all over the flight logs and everything. >> Which guy was which guy? >> Gates. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> All All tangled up in all sorts of. stuff, man. >> Yeah. He was tangled up in all sorts of. stuff after that guy went to jail. >> After he went to jail and came out the. first time. >> Yeah. >> Gates was hanging with him still. >> Yeah. >> As were many people. It's re it's real. weird stuff, man. It's real weird.

because it seems that it's like. once you develop a network of people. that trust a person like that and like. come come hang out with him. He's cool. You know, it's a good place to go and. get your freak on. Like because if. you're a really rich like international. businessman and everybody knows who you. are, like a Bill Gates type character, you can't just go get some head. Like. what do you do? How do you How do you. How do you go get your [ __ ] on? You. know, what do you do? >> Is that Is that what the Is that what.

Jeff was? Is he Was he the the fixer in. that? >> I would just be speculating. >> I would just be speculating. But a good. friend of mine who's very intelligent. said this to me. He said, "Uh, there's. people that want certain experiences and. there's people that. >> provide these powerful people with. experiences and that's how they fit into. the social structure. They're there to. to help. they can keep their mouth shut. and they help people get these. experiences, >> right? >> And then there's probably some sort of a. wild rush of being naughty and doing.

things you're not supposed to be doing. We can get away with it because we're. worth 80 billion dollars or whatever the. [ __ ] they're worth. >> They're trying very hard to get away. with this one. I don't know if the. people are going to. forget. Just. >> people are never going to forget. The. problem is, do we have any power? >> What do we do? You know, what do you do? I mean, you definitely can change the. way you vote. Like, if it comes up. again, but the problem is this is a. bipartisan issue. >> It's a bipartisan. It's I don't know. I.

heard is a is a Democratic hoax. That's. >> Yeah, I don't think that's true. >> Um, but. >> Well, it's certainly not a hoax if you. go to jail. Certainly not a hoax if. Glenn Maxwell's in jail, too. So, like. she's in jail for sex trafficking. Excuse me. She's in jail for sex. trafficking, but the question is to who? >> Who she in? Who? >> You have to be sex trafficking to. someone in order to go to jail, right? So, >> who how's that work?

>> How She's been in jail for years. >> So, like, how's that work? >> Is she looking at a pardon? Are they. going to. >> I don't know. But they just moved her to. another prison. >> They moved. >> supposed to be a nice prison as far as. prisons go. move her to to kill her. >> Could be. >> I mean, >> but I would Why would you waste the. money to move someone if you wanted to. kill him? I'm sure they could kill her. pretty easy. >> I don't know. >> You know, but the question is, does she. have dead woman switches?

>> You know what I mean? >> What's. >> you know the dead man switches? >> Well, like. >> when trip wire. >> Yeah. Like if I die, I want you to do. this for me. And then whether it's in. Israel, whether it's in Canada, whoever. the [ __ ] the person is that you have. that you give this information to. >> Yeah. >> You just say, "If anything happens to. me, let this loose.". >> And then you tell them like, "Look, I. have this, that, this, and that. I have. all these tapes. I have all these. videos. And uh if anything happens to. me, >> all this goes online,

>> so leave me alone.". >> If that were true, >> that's a real thing that people do. It's. called a dead man switch. dead man. switch. >> Yeah, that's how people maintain life. If you have information that's really. sensitive, they have to trust you. If. someone trusts you to not tell something. that could ruin their empire of hundreds. of billions of dollars and and put them. in jail, possibly. >> Yeah. >> They have to trust you. They're not. going to trust you. They don't trust.

you. But if they know that you know that. if you tell they'll kill you and then. they know that if they kill you, you'll. have the dead man switch. >> Okay, we got a stalemate. >> Let that [ __ ] live. >> This is mutually assured destruction. Exactly. Some kind of nuclear standoff. with. >> Yeah. They're pointing missiles at each. other. Missile information missiles at. each other. >> It's dark, dude. Uh,

>> but it makes for a good spy novel. If. just America, the way it actually really. works would be a crazy novel. You'd be. like, "This is nuts.". >> Like a Tom Wolf is something or another. >> Yeah. You know, >> just with the if you actually knew the. actual facts, I bet it would be quite. fascinating. >> Yeah. >> You know, like we have these narratives. that we assume are real about even about. history. And I bet a lot of them are. full of [ __ ] too. You know, Bill Murray was on the podcast. It was. really interesting. And uh he read Bob.

Woodward's um story about his good. friend John Belalushi. Right. >> So he said I read five pages of it. I. was like, "Oh my god, they framed. Nixon.". >> Right. Right. Isn't. >> that crazy? >> Well, I mean, isn't Bob Woodward? He's. known to have been hired or at least. worked with CIA and and. >> he was an intelligence agent. >> Yeah. He's intelligent and he first. builds the narratives. >> It was also his first job as a. journalist. >> Yeah. >> Which is how how did the senior. journalist not get that job? You're. you're literally going to take down a. president.

>> I didn't see that aspect of it in all. the president's men. Who was that? Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You don't get that. You don't get. that. >> cuz that was before the internet and. like they they could get away with a. movie like that. >> I kind I kind of wonder if they I. Listen, I'm sure this. I'm actually I don't know anything about. Do you know Tom Hanks? >> Tom Hanks the actor? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know him personally. though. >> Okay. I just wonder if every every once.

in a while when the government needs to. explain something to the public in a way. that puts us in the best light. Um if they commission a movie through. Hollywood and stick Tom Hanks in it, man, he's just explained so much to us. over the years with Charlie Wilson's. War. It's like here's how the. >> saving private. >> Here's how this this goes. >> Um, you know, Forest Gump is kind of a.

nostalgia fest about the, you know, Vietnam War. It kind of makes light of. it. Um, you know, The Polar Express. >> I actually don't know about the Polar. Express. >> animated movie. Well, my friend Sam was. telling me, my Sam friend Sam Tripley. was telling me that, and I had heard. this, that during World War I, they had. a problem that soldiers were not. shooting at the enemy. They didn't want. to kill them. They didn't want to be.

there. And so, they were firing their. guns, but not even aiming them at the. enemy, >> right? >> So, to combat this, they started making. movies. And then in the movies, these. war movies, the soldiers would shoot the. enemy. And they were like really heroes. And so then in World War II, people were. much more willing to shoot the enemy. >> Gee, isn't that crazy? >> Yeah. >> Like so the intelligence communities. have been deeply involved in movie. making from the very beginning because.

back then movies were the most powerful. narrative in all of society, >> right? >> And there was no counternarrative. Not. not to speak of, nothing that went. global or even that was like publicly. mass distributed. There was not I mean. you might have people in coffee shops. >> saying hey man I read this and this and. that and but there were small groups of. people most people were in the dark. >> even if you had a counternarrative you'd. be like Pete Seager and get like. blacklisted in the 50 you know a. musician. >> you'd be smly butler. >> but right who was in a.

>> the end of his career. >> Yeah. >> it's it's a wonder he survived his own. his own tell all there with war as a. racket. Yeah. >> So, >> it is it didn't seem to do a whole lot. Whatever. Um, World War II is just uh, you know, six years after. >> I know. Crazy. >> Isn't it crazy though that they made. movies about war to encourage people to. just shoot the enemy when they see them? Because most people, it's probably so.

abstract to them like they're from like. especially if they had just gotten there. from Europe, right? So imagine if you're. dealing with uh World War I, like a lot. of those people probably recently. arrived in America, >> right? And then now you're being sent. over to France. >> Now you're being sent over to Germany. Like you're you're you're involved in a. [ __ ] war now. You're in a trench war. >> Well, I don't America was pretty was. really not wanting to get in with World. War I anyway. You know,

>> some was it the Lucatania? Some folks. think that even might have been a, you. know, a false flag. >> Do they think that was a false flag? >> Possibly. >> It could have been. >> Well, I mean, that's a long there's a. long history of false flags that got us. into war. I mean, it goes back to Nero. burning Rome, >> you know, and what they did with the. Gulf of Tonkan incident is. >> what happened with Nero? >> Let's go pull that up. Nero was so. crazy, dude. You know, one of the things. Nero did? >> What? He beat his pregnant wife to death. and then he found a slave that looked.

like his wife, a boy, castrated him and. said that this is my wife and paraded. this person around. Sporus was his name. >> French stuff. >> Yeah. And just [ __ ] this poor dude. with no dick that he had his dick cut. off. And then uh pass that guy off to. someone else and that guy eventually w. up committing suicide. Yeah. Yeah. Nero was a complete total. psychopath. So there was um this one.

false flag incident. What it see if you. could find what Nero did, you know, that was also like Hitler. Hitler burned the rich stag. That was a. false flag, too. The Gulf of Tonkan one. was a crazy one because that was what. was that 67. 68 or something like that. >> So he had already been in Vietnam for. years at that point. No, no, that was. the we they had some limited operations, >> right? >> But it wasn't like we're as full-scale.

soldiers invading Vietnam, >> right? Is this is this precursor to like. Ted Ted offensive or. >> I don't know. But this was the incident. that dragged us in. Uh burning Rome, burning Christians. You're 64. uh during the principate of Nero. The. night between July 18th and 19th, the. fire broke out in Rome within nine days, destroyed or badly damaged substantial. part of the city, leaving many dead or. homeless. Rumors circulated the fire had. been set by Nero, who it was claimed,

sought to divert blame from himself by. holding responsible a new sect of. aggressively proilitizing Jews known as. Christians. Wow. Most recent scholarship. has rejected the popular view of Nero as. an arsonist who fiddled while Rome. burned in quotes. Largely ignored, however, has been the question of. whether or not the Christians generally. regarded as innocent scapegoats of Nero. might in fact play have played some role. in the fire. >> There's controversy.

>> Yeah. Uh the chapter considers the. problematic nature of Christianity and. Rome and Roman attitudes towards. Christians in the first century CE and. suggests based on this evidence that. Christian involvement is not out of the. question. Not out of the question, but. the narrative has always been that Nero. did it to divert attention. >> Yeah. >> But the point is it's like look, they. tried to do that with Operation. Northwoods. It's one of the things that. Kennedy vetoed. The Joint Chiefs of. Staff signed off on an operation to do a. false flag event where they were going. to blow up a drone jetliner, blame it on.

Cuba, and they were going to arm Cuban. friendlies and attack Guantanamo Bay. And it they were doing this so that they. drag us into a war with Cuba. And. Kennedy vetoed it. But it was signed by. the Joint Chiefs of Staff, >> right? They're like, "Sounds good, >> right? >> They're [ __ ] smuggling.". >> I mean, is this what is this what the. Bay of what the Bay of Pigs is? No, the. Bay of Pigs is a different thing. The. Bay of Pigs is after that. And the Bay. of Pigs, the problem with the Bay of. Pigs was that they planned it without. Kennedy knowing. >> The men were already there.

>> Yeah. And then they had air support and. that was part of their mission. And then. Kennedy denied air support. >> and then the men on the ground got. slaughtered. And so they, my friend. Evan, who was a ranger, he believes it's. very possible that some of the people. involved in that might have been. involved in the assassination of. Kennedy, right? >> Because they had a huge grudge and these. were, you know, hardened assassins. >> Yeah. If that's something that you'd go. and mine.

>> Yeah. >> people out of that operation. >> There was a lot of people that hated. Kennedy after that. Yeah. A lot of. people. We don't think about it now. because we think of Kennedy as like. being loved, but there was people that. celebrated when he got murdered. >> Gee, >> yeah, >> that I can't imagine. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like today, like. if Trump got murdered, there's people. that would celebrate, you know, or if. Kla Harris had gotten murdered on the. campaign trail, there's people that. would celebrate. There's gross people on.

both sides of the aisle. It it is I mean. is is a sign of something's not good. when we're celebrating just death. >> No, >> I feel you know I feel like. >> well it's certainly a society that's. lost its way. So. >> if that's the only solution is to kill. people, you know, or if you don't like how the results. turned out, you do everything you can to. destroy that person, which uh I think.

the most interesting version of that is. happening right now in New York City. That Mandani guy that uh who's. essentially like at the very least a. socialist but kind of leans towards a. communist direction, >> right? Um both sides are trying to get. rid of that guy. They're like we can't. allow him to be mayor. >> Okay. >> But like but the people elected him. He. won the Democratic primary and he's like. 44% ahead of everybody else in the. process. >> So there's still you Sorry, you got to.

kind of fill me in. I. >> So the actual election is not until. November, right? So they have the. primary first. Mandani won and he won. over Andrew Cuomo who used to be the. governor of the state and everybody. thought he was going to win, right? And. then people are like, "Holy [ __ ] this. communist guy is going to be the [ __ ]. mayor of New York City." And he's. promising to jack up taxes and he's. promising to have like cityfunded. grocery stores and like a lot of. communist ideas. And so both the right. and the left are like, "We got to get.

this guy out of here. There's no way.". >> But it's like if you believe in the. democratic process, >> like this is what the people wanted, >> right? >> Let's find out if it works. Let's find. out if if it sucks, if it makes New York. City even worse. Well, then in a few. years, you get to vote again. >> I was going to say, how long is the how. long is mayorship? >> I think it's four years. >> Four years, >> right? Is a four-year term for mayor of. New York City? >> It has to be, right? Cuz in two years, you're basically just using the time to. campaign for your re-election. Yeah.

>> Because you'd probably by the time you. got in there, it's like 24 months later, you got to do it again, right? He like. uh. >> so that what are the what are the two. sides doing to uh to bring him to bring. him down? >> Talk about getting him out of the. country. There's people that are talking. about is there a way to to expel him. from the country. >> to revoke his citizenship. >> Yeah. There's there's talk of that. >> Huh. >> Yeah. People are trying to figure out. any way to get rid of this guy. >> But he is a citizen of course.

>> but he wasn't born in America which. freaks people out. He's a Muslim. He's. from Uganda. that's where he's from. >> He's only been in America for a certain. amount of years and he's only been a. citizen, I think, for seven or eight. years, something like that. >> Uh, and he won, you know, like if you. believe in this thing, like that's what. people voted for and you got to do. better. >> That's the That's what the folks want. That that's what the folks want. >> Yeah. Well, the thing is there's a lot. of people that live in New York City, that live in, you know, any city really,

that don't feel like their needs are. being met by the government, >> right? and they don't feel like the. government has their best interest. And. if some guy comes along with some. radical ideas that he says are the. solution, well, if the people believe. him and it's not true, you've done a. terrible job. You've done a terrible job. of both distributing information and. taking care of these people because. they're looking for any kind of a. solution, right? >> Even a solution that might wind up. >> causing a bunch of corporations to leave.

the city and a bunch of money to leave. the city and a bunch of jobs to leave. the city. Yeah, it doesn't this things. are things are desperate, right? What the politicians really controlled. by like like three main things like. special interests, um. donor class and multinational. corporations. So, anybody who looks like. they're disentangled from any of those. things is looking pretty appealing.

>> Exactly. Exactly. That's why he's way. ahead. He's ahead by 44%. >> Everybody else has like 12%, 20%. I. think the. >> I think the highest one other than him. in the most recent polling was Quomo. who's still running somehow or another. I don't know how he's doing it. It's. like is he an independent? Like how is. Cuomo running? Is that what it is? >> Yeah. So, he's running as an independent. because he couldn't win the Democratic. primary. >> Yeah. >> But he's still way behind this guy. >> Yeah. >> According to polls. But the problem with. polls is of course who the [ __ ] answers.

polls? Not you. Not me. Oh, not me. I. think polls are just made so that news. people have something to talk about. >> Well, >> I wouldn't be surprised if they're the. ones Well, they probably are. They. probably go to the poll center and they. say, "Run this poll cuz I got to I got. to have something to talk about on. Wednesday.". >> Yeah. It's You could rig them, right? So. you could rig them like say if you went. to a specific group of people that you. knew leaned right and you started asking. them questions on things or a specific.

group of people specific part of the. city that you knew was more progressive. you would go there. >> If you wanted to rig polls and then you. push that narrative out. This is how the. people feel. >> It's like okay but who's answering? A. very small percentage and mostly dopes. >> Mostly dopes are answering polls. Sorry. if you answer polls, but most of the. people have nothing else to do. Cuz if. you call me. >> I never met anybody who's answered a. poll. >> Bingo. >> I met a lot of folks. You met a lot of. folks. Exactly. You ever met anyone who. answered a poll? >> No. And the presidential polls are the. weird ones cuz sometimes they're wildly.

wrong and yet somebody got paid to make. those polls. >> I think it's it's the new I think it's. the news. I think the news is an. incredibly lucrative business. It's an. entertainment business. There's not news every day. There's. There's nothing to And they got to run. 24 hours. >> Yeah. >> You They're making up They're making up. new They should call it They should call. it the old because it's always the same. [ __ ] happening, man. Like it's not even.

>> Yeah. >> It doesn't matter where you where you. getting it either. It's. >> It's also a lot. I mean, CNN tried to. separate themselves from that when they. realized it was like financially. kind of devastating to the company to. have like really bad editorial comments, which is what they did. That's why they. got rid of all their head newscasters, >> okay? >> Because everybody was terrible and. everybody hated them. So, they just got. rid of most of them, >> right? >> And they tried to go objective with the. news. But the problem is like that way. people aren't outraged and the only way.

people are going to pay attention now. cuz Ziggy spoiled them. You gave them. candy and now you can't give them filet. minan. Like this is [ __ ] I want. Cheetos and I want snacks, right? >> Like you've you ruined them and you gave. them this for decades. And so now if you. want your ratings, you have to give them. outrage. You have to have a bunch of. people yelling at each other on TV so. they pay attention. >> Yeah. And like the I feel like the most. like colorful people that they would. have had on their things have gone indie.

now, you know, like like Tucker Carlson has. his his podcast and like. >> um let's see, Candace Owens was with. like Daily Wire and now she's like got. she's got her own. >> big thing and there's and then there's. smaller there's smaller ones you got. Break Breaking Points is one. Um, >> you know, the real problem is the left. ones never succeed once they're fired.

Um, the people that leave CNN, they're. always like dismissed. >> Well, the talent I mean, we have to be. talented to do to do that. To sit there. and look at a camera and just talk for. like hours about you got to be really. talented. So, >> you gota be really dedicated and you. have to. >> you have to understand how people are. receiving what you're saying too. And. the problem with like a CNN type job is. that you're being told what to do. You. show up, you read the news as written by. these people. You have a teleprompter,

>> right? >> You you you really can't stray very far. from the narrative. And you know, you're. allowed to you're allowed to elaborate. inside the narrative as long as it fits. with what CNN is trying to promote, >> right? >> And as soon as you deviate from that, you're you're cooked. You're gone. >> Yeah. So then so then there's really no. c there's there's not much career. >> for you after. >> Yeah. Because once you leave, everybody. knows you're a propagandist. Like no. one's ever going to really truly believe. you.

>> You weren't coming up with anything. yourself. It was all fed to you. Exactly. You drone. >> Exactly. And then we also watched as you. did elaborate on your own about whatever. you thought about the narrative. You're. a dope. You're a dope that's only on. television because they put you there. You're not you're not like you didn't. rise through the ranks like this is one. of the most interesting people I've ever. heard talk on television. Like no that's. not that at all. >> You're not sincere. >> You're you're you know we what people. like is authenticity. You know, you want.

to know that someone is actually telling. you what they think and you don't get. any of that from them. As soon as you. don't get that from people, you never. want to listen. Whether you believe. Tucker Carlson or not, he's being. authentic. Like what he's saying, he he. believes, right? This is who he is and. that's why he works. That's why it works. outside of. >> Fox News when he left. >> That's those folks, all these folks who. do. I think even Bill O'Reilly after he. got like kicked out, you know, from from. broadcast, he has he's got his podcast.

and stuff. If they. they really believe their their stuff, man. >> Yeah. Whether they're right or wrong. >> Yeah. Well, it's not about that. I I. feel like the public has to understand. that at the end of the day, this these. guys are whether they believe it or not, this is entertainment. These guys are. entertainers. These like this isn't the. new They're telling you stuff. They're. feeding it to you and and you got to.

take things with a big ass grain of salt. because this stuff is these are. entertainers. >> Well, there's definitely that aspect of. it. And if you're not entertaining, you're going to get removed from your. job and you're going to get replaced by. someone who's better at your job. >> Yeah. >> Or hotter. >> You know, someone who's got a nice a. nice rack and a short skirt and who's. really good at talking. Like, wow. I. really I just want to watch her talk. >> That's I guess that's for the cable. folks or something. >> Yeah. I mean, that's part of the gig,

right? Like, how many of those ladies on. Fox News just look hot as the sun while. they're telling you whatever the [ __ ]. they're supposed to be telling you? >> Yeah. >> You know, it's a special kind of hot, too. That. like ice queen hot. That's a that. Republican like hard-nosed hot. >> I don't get it. >> Special kind of hot. >> I don't get it, man. I don't you. that's the that's the cheapest that's.

the cheapest thing they can pull over on. the on the news stations is to have is. to have sex appeal. >> Yeah, but they've always get I mean. that's how they sell cars. That's how. they sell everything. People use that. for everything because we're dumb. >> Well, I I'm optimistic, man. I think. we're going to wake up. We're going to. say I don't care. I don't care what the. hot lady on Fox says, they're murdering people. >> Yeah. Well, you know, >> I'm optimistic, too. And I think I think. you're right. >> I think we are doing that right now. And.

I think, believe it or not, your songs. are a part of that. >> There's, you know, whatever percentage. you you reach. That's it's not zero. There's there's people that you reach. like that United Health, how many views. did that get all told? >> I don't know. It has to be millions. >> It got a lot of looks. >> Millions and millions and millions. I. know. I sent it to a lot of people. >> Thing these the tunes get they get. passed around. Some of them get passed. around. >> Did I repost that? I reposted it, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. If I repost it, I can find out how.

many people just saw the one that I. reposted. >> That'll be It'll be a lot. >> It resonates, man. It's like people are. [ __ ] How long ago was that? >> When you shared the list, that one blew. up, too. >> Yeah, that was a good one, too. Um, how long ago was that? The United Health. one. >> That was in uh December. >> What is it, Jamie? >> You posted it eight months ago. >> Eight months ago. This is going to take. a while cuz I'm a a chatty Kathy. I. posted. >> It was December 15th, 2024.

>> Oh, that's not that long ago. Okay. So, here's Federman. That's around that. time. Let me find it. There ain't no. you. Come on, Cox. Where are you? There's no shortage of stuff to make to. make tunes on. >> How do you decide what to make tunes on? Do you just sit and and when something. like resonates with you and pisses you. off? >> When something Yeah. When when something. is like, you know, gee, gee, I got.

I got something I could say about that. Um, then that's that's when you that's when. you do. >> I can't find it. >> That's when you do a tube. But. >> I know it's on here. How would I how. would I search for it? >> Uh, I don't think you can because you're. trying to see the views. You just. >> found it. Here we go. Sorry. Okay. View. insights. >> I guess. >> 6,742,83.

views. The watch time is 3 years, 104 days, 17 hours, 13 minutes, and 8. seconds. >> Folks got too much time on their hands. >> There's a lot of people on the toilet. right now, bro. >> They need something to listen to. >> You ever go to the toilet without your. phone? It's weird. You just sit there. like, "Wow, I'm alone with my. >> spacew walk without oxygen.

No one knows how to do it anymore.". >> Yeah. It's um. >> read the Dr. Bronner's bottle. >> But the thing is like that the the six. million plus people that heard that like. that that affects the narrative and then. you know the list one that affects the. narrative and this one that you did on. philanthropy that affects the narrative. is there's everyone's like throwing. their coins into this big pile and. trying to figure this out and more so. now than I think has ever happened at.

any time in human history. there's more. discussion. It's just yeah, we're so. upset that it's not fixed. >> and uh it it's on its way in the right. direction. I think it's just not. satisfying the pace which in which. progress is happening. >> Everybody can get on now, too. I mean, like that's it's just like I prop up my. iPhone and like play a tune. Mhm.

>> Everyone can just like get in. >> Yep. >> phone in front of their face and like. get it out there, >> you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. Anyone can now, which is. great. I mean, this allows guys like you. to just all of a sudden have a. following, >> you know. All you have to do is have. some talent, some talent and some. creativity, some hard work. Bam. There. you go. >> It's kind of cool. I mean, that's the. beautiful side of social media. >> That's good. There's no there's no rules. as far as especially in the music. industry and stuff, there's no rules.

anymore. Anyone who tells you that they. know what to do or that they know what. they're doing, they're so full of [ __ ]. dog. >> Nobody knows what they're doing. >> Yeah. >> And like we want we want people to know. because we want to ask like what could I. do to, you know, to have to be. successful or whatever. Then nobody. knows. >> No, >> nobody knows. And there's no gatekeepers. or anything like that. that all you have. to do is want to play music. All you have to do. >> Yeah. >> And then go and do it on your phone and.

see if anyone likes you and if they like. you, you're, you know, that's good. >> Yeah. >> Then everybody will come to you and say, "I know how to make this bigger and they. don't know what they're talking about. either.". >> No, they're generally they're vampires. and they're trying to take a piece. >> Yeah. >> They're trying to clamp on to you. >> Oh, they they come out of the woodwork, dog. >> Have you had people offer you a bunch of. money? Not a bunch, but they'll they'll. offer you a little for a lot, you know. >> Yeah. A little for a lot. They want your. future, right? >> Yeah. They'll go, I you know, here's I.

mean, there are all sorts of folks in. the in the early days coming through. labels and stuff going, here's. >> we'll give you. >> 10 grand for like 30 songs or something. like that. And it's like, this is. insulting. >> Yeah. >> I don't want any of this. I don't want. any I don't need any of this. Oliver. Anthony was going through that right. after Richmond from Richmond, >> right? >> Richmond North of Richmond song came. out. >> Like they just came after him with all. this money. They will all these ass all.

all this [ __ ] promises. They will all. this money. >> They give you so much upfront and you. don't even like if you don't know it's. just a big ass loan that you're never. going to recoup and then you're you're. not even you're not living off your own. dough at that point. You're just living. off of borrowed money like everybody. else in the States. >> and you're attached to them forever. Yeah, >> you're attached to them for hours. >> They just they own your masters. You'll. never see it back. I mean, I I was. signed to a label when I was like 22. I've been through that all that crap.

>> How old are you now? >> I'm 47. >> Are you really? You look great. >> No, I'm going to be 33 this year. But, uh, >> yeah, I believed you. I was like, man, kids living good. >> No, >> no, I'm just joshing you. But you know, this is a new time where you really can. become hugely successful and get a. gigantic following with no one attached. to you. >> Yeah. >> Where you don't you don't have to have. all those people put they're not going. to help you. >> No, they don't. Too many cooks in the.

kitchen. >> Mhm. >> Way too many people wanting. >> too many people eating at the dinner. plate. >> And dude, when anybody gives you m like. if label comes in, let's say Chris took. let's say he took the deal, you know, or. or whatever. If Oliver Anthony took the. big deal, then he's got all these people up there. in the office with tax write off. MacBooks telling him what to do with his. music because they opened their wallet. and they're going to have to give you. notes. >> They're entitled. >> to give you their opinion at that point.

and he wouldn't be able to just do. whatever the hell he wants to do. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I think it's so important. for artists to be able to do whatever. the hell they want to do cuz that's the. only way they can be themselves. >> Exactly. And then that's the only way. you can be successful is to completely. be yourself at all times. 100% nothing. but yourself. >> And you see that one thing that does. happen when people do take the money is. that part goes away cuz even though you. think you're kind of sort of being. yourself, everybody knows you're not. totally.

>> you're not totally being yourself. anymore. >> And do will change your life in a in a. in a way that that you might not like be. ready for something. it's going to. you're going to think I got this dough. now I can I can leave this town I don't. like or I can get the house that I was. wanting when it was really it was it was. being in that town and kind of having. things difficult pressures around you. and stuff that was creating these. diamonds that was putting you in this. situation to make good art and stuff.

like that and you take away. >> all your discomfort and then realize you. can't make art and you're not happy. >> and and then you start getting nostalgic. about the good old days when you were. broke and [ __ ] like that. It's just it's. better it's it's better to just take. only what you need. >> Well, then there's also the problem once. you become successful of worrying about. not being successful anymore about. maintaining it. That's terrifying. Sure.

>> I got to keep this going. Like I can't I. can't fall off. I can't be less. successful. I can't I I used to be poor. and now I've got money. I got to make. sure this doesn't go away. You temper. your thoughts and you you measure you. You're measured in what you say. >> No. No. It's your measure of success is. like how much can I be myself and uh and. be happy be happy that way. If you can. still be 100% yourself all the way to.

the end of the line, then that's your. success. >> Yeah. Like. >> that's but that's a smart way of looking. at things. Most people look at things in. terms of like what is the way that's the. most profitable. >> you know so they'll avoid certain. controversies. >> But we know that the like we know even. from talking about like people whose. business whose art is money it creates. misery to be chasing. the bank account to constantly have the. dough you know like you create a wake of. you create bad art. All right, your.

album start to suck. You might be getting in bigger bigger. places and stuff like that, but yeah, it's gonna it's gonna fall off. And when. it does, you know, then then you have like some existential. problems to deal with at that point. >> Well, there's always the devil's. bargain, right? There's that that. [ __ ] story is as old as time. That's. the Robert Johnson story, right? They. thought he sold his soul. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Van Halen definitely sold his soul.

to the devil. >> You think so? >> No. You look like Eddie Van Halen, dude. >> What? >> He look a little like Eddie Van Halen. >> I [ __ ] love Eddie Van Hal. >> Yeah, he's the man. >> Oh my god. >> He was the man. >> He was the Robert Johnson of the of the. late 70s. Him. Angus Young sold his. soul. >> Isn't it funny though that that story. was like always around? The story of. selling your soul for success. >> Yeah. >> It's an interesting. >> metaphor. That doesn't but it doesn't.

make any sense as far as like Robert. John. He's like he sold his soul I guess. so he could play and then not be. successful in his lifetime and die poor. and then we would all find him later in. >> I think the thought was that he was so. much better than everybody else. There's. no way he could have gone that far ahead. without some help. >> Right. He's spooky good. >> Yeah, >> he's spooky good. He's working in the. future. >> But that's always there's always guys. like that like Hrix. If anybody sold. their soul, it's Hrix. Yeah, >> not that I think he did, but it's like.

when that guy came around, everybody was. like, "What the [ __ ] is going on?" Like. >> in every generation there's a player, man. And I mean, maybe you could trace. the line. Johnson, >> Hendrickx, that's skipping a few, >> but to Hendrickx, >> Eddie Van Halen, and then you've got. like Steve Vi. >> and Joe Satriani and like these these. virtuosos. Stevie Revon so important to Texas too, Stevie. Um, >> we have a photo of him on stage uh at. our club because you know I own this.

place that used to be a theater that he. performed at. >> Okay. >> And there's a photo of him on stage in. 1983. >> So as you're walking to the stage, there's a photo of Steve Rayvon on stage. >> in the back. >> He's so cool. I don't know if you seen. like him at like Austin City limits. slinging his guitar behind his back and. back playing with his teeth. He's got. all his scarfs and stuff. I almost got. to uh drive him once when I was driving. limos, but he wouldn't take limos. >> What did he want? >> I drove Jeff Beck. He wouldn't take. lios. >> Jeff back. What?

>> He He only took cabs. >> Okay. >> They'd get him a limo. He's like, "Eh, I'm getting in a cab.". >> Okay. >> He'd hop in a cab and talk to the cab. driver. He didn't want to be Mr. Fancy. in a [ __ ] limo. >> Yeah. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Salt of the earth, dude. >> I was pissed, though. I was like, "Fuck.". >> Yeah. >> Almost got to drive Stevie Rayon. It's one of those one of those talents. every generation is. >> But it also shows you how dumb limo. drivers are. Like the the companies like. you let a [ __ ] psycho like me, a.

21-year-old maniac, drive one of the. greatest guitars of all time. Like I was. a bad driver. Like I was a reckless kid. Like all of a sudden I had this job. driving limos cuz I wore a suit. Like. you're going to trust me. >> Stevie Avon. >> I mean safer than the helicopter pilots. and stuff. >> in the end. Yes. No, I'm just kidding. I. mean, I was a good driver when I was. driving limos, but it's kind of crazy. Thank you. But it is kind of crazy that. they let a 21-year-old me just at at the. helm of a car with one of the greatest.

>> musicians of all time in the back seat. >> It's always It's fun to think back on. that on that. Like when I was when I was. 18, I I I did a radio program for KDYN. Real Country Radio every Saturday. morning. It was called Dial a Deal where. people call in. It was basically like an. on air Craigslist, you know, but I was. alone at the station after football. games, you know, football game would be. like Friday night, go to bed all beat. up, wake up at like 5:00 a.m., go into.

the station, record the obituaries real. quick because those are going to run on. on Saturday, and then and then do like. a, you know, an on-air Craigslist radio. program and you're just like 17 years. old with the entire radio station to. yourself, you Wow. >> I was I was a total dumbass, too. I. could have been like, "Anyway, here's. Grand Funk Railroad," you know, but. >> Did you have a specific list of things. that you're supposed to play? >> Uh, the list was like programmed in and.

then you had to record weather. So, you. would pull up the National Weather. Service on the on the screen and then. you would record yourself doing the. weather saying, you know, winds are. going to be southeast, south, >> southeast, northwest out 15 miles an. hour or whatever. you do the obituaries, but um no, you didn't actually DJ. It. was just like you would hit the space. bar, music would start playing and be. like, "Okay, folks, if you can't tell by. the music, I'll go ahead and tell you. myself. It's time for dial a deal. Remember our numbers up here is 667-4567.

or toll-free at 888 325 KDYN." That's. 8888 325 Katy. Remember, no commercial. real estate advertisement. Please limit. your calls to once per program. And keep. in mind, I can't always keep track of. these numbers up here myself. So, if you. remember them on your end, you're doing. me and you a favor. Let's get back to. the dialing and a dealing. And then. people would call in and they'd be like, "I'm looking for my dog." And I'd be. like, "Somebody find that dog." And.

then, you know, list off their number. Or uh. >> Did you ever play any of your songs? >> No. No. It was a classic country radio. station. So, I'm up there listening to. like Willie, Whan, Hank Senior, Hank. Jr., and then also they were playing they. were playing like some moder like I. remember Brad Paisley was being played. on here and he just shredded. But. >> no, I couldn't I couldn't I was in a. grunge band at the time. I I couldn't. play. >> Were you really? >> Yeah. I think that Yeah. the I couldn't.

put once I printed out the tracklisting. uh for the record that I had made. I. would I would make CD records and sell. them at school like five bucks a I made. more money selling records in high. school than I ever did as an adult. But. you I' printed out all the song listing. Anyway, the album was called Mom I'm Gay. and all the uh I left a bunch of them. like at the radio station. I remember. the guy who was running it, he came to.

me and he was like, "Did did you print. these out? Are these yours?" And it was. just kind of awkward after that. A small town in Arkansas. far out. >> That's funny. >> But I you know, folks folks will let a let a a young. person do all kinds of stuff. I guess. they see an aptitude in you. They trust. you, so they let you drive a limo. You. know, >> I think they just needed a job. They. needed someone to do the job. It's that.

simple. And most people would only. temporarily keep that job and they would. leave. >> Right. Right. High turnover. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There's high turnover at the radio. station cuz we weren't making any dough. >> Right. >> You know, the. >> What year was this? >> This was in 1927. >> No. Uh. 2010. I used to do a lot of radio when I was. uh young and doing the road. So I'd do. like morning radio shows in the middle.

of nowhere. Yeah. >> And it was the only way to promote. things like say if you're going to do. some gig in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, like. >> you get on local radio, you tell. everybody drive time radio. So you're on. the air at like 6:30 in the morning. Yeah. And let everybody know you're. going. >> there. Radio was a weird thing, man, because it was like a local connection. and all that stuff is kind of gone now. Mhm. >> You know, local connection used to be. fun. It was there was something about. listening to the local radio in the. morning when you're on your way to work.

>> That was kind of cool. Great. >> Yeah. And you knew that all most of your. friends were listening to, right? >> You know, >> they had a program called like I I. forget what it was, but on. every morning they would go through the. sponsors of the radio station, which. were all local businesses, and they. would say, "Here's a cup of coffee for. Burns Drug." And it was just like a call. out to Burns drug burns pharmacy or. whatever. And then you'd hear the sound. of a coffee cup. The obituaries ran.

You'd listen to them. You'd be like, "Oh, Janine died. Damn it. >> We had to go to the memorial." Uh they. would tell what the hillbillies like the. mascot was the hillbillies and like how. high school football was doing and stuff. like that. >> I wonder if anybody's creating that in. podcasts. I wonder if there's any good. local podcasts that are just about the. community that you could like tune into. every day. Like here's the news, you. know? >> I might have to start one. >> Why not?

>> This local anonymous and local. >> Yeah. Just don't even say it's you. Make. up another name. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is Bob Butts. >> And people go, I know who that is. >> No, you don't. >> I heard that dude. >> I'm not who? >> You going to do a different voice? I. know you, but you don't know me. >> Are you gonna change your voice? You. should do that. >> No, I get. >> do the local news. One of those things. like an FBI informant. >> We went into the house at 4:30 in the. morning.

>> You know, >> you know what I mean? >> Those are when they have those people on. TV with their face blacked out. >> Those vice. >> Are you sure that the government was. involved? >> 100%. They had to know. The information. came down from the top. Show their face. >> Yeah, show their face. They You got to. get them killed. >> Oh man. >> Um, how many do you do a lot of live gigs? >> Yeah. >> How many live gigs do you do? Do you do. like in a week? Do you do a bunch? Like.

how do you do it? >> No, I just scheduled tours. So, like. tomorrow I'll I'll announce a tour and I. think it's like 20some dates and then. I'll go out for. two months and and play, you know. >> You just play solo? Do you bring. >> No, I bring a band. >> Oh, that's cool. >> A whole band. Um and then right now I've. just been in festival season, so I just. play the Newport Folk Fest. Shout out. Newport. >> Do you do any of these songs like United. Health?

>> Oh, yeah. >> You do all of them? >> Yeah. >> Nice. I got because I I'm just always. putting out albums like Yeah. Like on. Friday I'll put out another record too. >> How many albums do you have so far? >> Like five or six. You know kind. I wrote like a hundred songs in 24 and. just like put them all out. And that's. what's great about being indie is like. you can just you just put out music as. soon as you make it. >> Right. >> So um so there's but there's a lot of.

tunes to choose from. Right. Usually, you know, on the set, I'll play a lot of. these uh a lot of these topical ones and. then bring the band up and then we'll. play the other records that I got. Um. but no, I was just at New Newport and. then we did Edmonton Folkfest. and uh here in a little bit I'll do. Farmade and Healing Appalachia. Farmade. was like last year around this time, John Cougar Melon Camp sent me an email.

and was like, "Jesse, I would like you. to play at Farmade, but it was from a weird email address, and I didn't believe it was him, but it. it was totally him just like emailing. through his like girlfriend's email or. something." That's hilarious. >> And so I like I showed it. >> to a to one of the. like one of my friends. he helps manage. and he was like I'll I'll vet this out. We'll see if this is legit. And sure.

enough, it was anyway go down to Farmade. and that's like one of the first gigs. that I play as this iteration. of myself. Um but got to, you know, got to meet a. lot of cool people and and get to be. friends with with a lot of them, too. Lucas Nelson is. is very cool to meet him last year and. now I think we'll be doing a tune. together here before too long. But. >> nice. >> um him. I got to meet Charlie over there. at Farmade D.

>> Charlie. >> Charlie Crockett. >> Oh, Charlie's awesome. >> He's super cool. >> I really enjoyed talking to him. >> Yeah, he's great. >> He was a great guest. What a wild life. that guy's lived. >> Yeah, >> that's like that comes out in his music. There's something about like hard. living, like living an an authentically. difficult life that like you hear it in. the way they sing. Yeah. >> You hear it. It's real. >> Yeah. >> You know, like there's like an. intangible element to certain songs, >> you know?

>> It's how it be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, AI is not going to fix that. They're not going to, you know what I. mean? Like AI is not going to overcome. that. >> No, I don't know. >> That's the maybe the only thing that AI. is not going to overcome. Who would be. worried? I I don't understand why. musicians are, >> you know, they're they're making like. Let me I'm gonna send you something, Jamie. I don't know if you've seen this, where they made a female indie like emo, whatever it would be, band lady, and.

it's really [ __ ] good. >> Yeah. >> Like, you listen to it and you're like, "Holy shit." I sent it to uh Patrick uh. from uh The Black Keys. Patrick Carney. >> Patrick Carney. And uh and he was he his. answer was like, "Pop music is AI. Has. been for a while. Good thing I suck at. drums and make it human.". >> Yeah. >> Uh I'm going to send this to you, Jamie, because you you you hear it and you're. like, "Oh my god, this could be a. [ __ ] giant hit." And the crazy thing.

is that AI makes this in seconds, >> right? >> I mean, in literal seconds. Like, you. watch this guy put in the prompts. You. watch it make this song and then you. listen to the song and you're like. >> right. >> Oh my god. And it's better than most of. these songs. Like listen to this. >> Create a square avatar of a fictitious. female alternative/ indie singer and a. name for her. >> Wow. Saty. Satie Wyinners. Okay. Song is. about walking away from someone who.

never really saw her worth. She's going. to create the song lyrics. >> Look at that. >> Wait, how many seconds was that? That. was like about 4 seconds. >> Look at that. That's got a bridge. >> Did you even read any of these or you. don't care? I don't care. Put my lyrics. in. >> The lyrics that happen in 4 seconds. >> Yes. And then hit create. Let's listen. >> This is the world premiere. >> I was. scissor.

[Music]. >> She's a good singer. Good singer. [Music]. Oo, that's nice. >> Pretty good. >> Where are we, Rick? Where have we found. ourselves? >> How crazy is that? >> I mean, amazing. >> Jewel even says, Jewel goes, "Wow, it's. a great melody.". >> Yeah. Listen, >> ours is everything that can be replaced. will be replaced. Okay. And pop music.

was already AI. Patrick has a great. point. >> there. I don't I don't think I don't. think artists if you what you're making. I don't think you got nothing to worry. about. >> Well, it's not a worry. It's I mean for. some people I'm sure it's a worry, but. it also is just a concern that there's a. new element of society that there's. creativity is being replaced in in at. least a form right in front of our eyes.

Like regardless of what you think about. pop music, there there are some people. that are making pop music in as a. creative endeavor and that just did it. way better than they do and did it like. like that. >> They'll have to find something else to. do. >> They'll have to find something else to. do. >> Listen to something else in J Penney. >> Who still goes to J Petty? I mean, are. they still around? Is there a J C. Penney? >> Yeah. >> At where you are? >> I go to J C Penney. I'm not knocking it.

I'd go if I needed something. >> I'm just saying I haven't seen one in a. long time. >> They're out there, >> you know. I see Targets everywhere. I. don't see J C Penney anywhere. >> I just The music like that always Yeah. I feel like I'm in a Yeah. I feel like. I'm in academy or. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. You're buying sneakers somewhere. >> They just need something to go in the. background. Some non-confrontational. music to. >> Yeah. >> carry you through. >> But what you said, I think is right that. if you can be replaced, you will be. replaced. Yeah. All things that can be. replaced will be replaced.

>> It's how it has always been. As long as. man has been around, everything that can. be replaced will be replaced. But there. are things that are irreplaceable. >> Right. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of in. every every new iteration of technology, we're seeing things get replaced, right? >> Right. >> Like when I was a bit a kid, um VHS was. the newest technology. Like, oh my god, you could watch a movie at home. >> Yeah. >> No one ever thought Blockbuster was ever. going to go away. Of course there's. always going to be a Blockbuster. Every. Friday night everybody goes to.

Blockbuster to find a movie to watch. >> Gone. >> Yeah. >> Doesn't exist anymore. Gone like that. Like real quick. Streaming internet. speeds pick up. It's over. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, remember record sales? Oh. my goodness. >> They would make millions and millions. and millions just from selling records. Now it all went away. Napster came along. >> and some people freaked out and you. know, some people lost a lot of fans. because they freaked out too, like to. try to stop the tide of inevitability. I. mean, didn't. didn't Hetfield and I mean, Metallica.

was eventually kind of right about what. they said about Napster, right? >> Oh, they knew. Yeah. >> Yeah. They knew what was. >> Well, they knew it was going away. >> Yeah. >> It was all going away. I mean, everybody. kind of understood that this is if. you're logical and objective, you could. you could pretend like, oh, don't worry, we're going to be fine. But if you're. logical and objective, you go, "Oh, this. is just the first bullet that landed, >> right, >> in this never- ending war, >> right, >> with with digital information, like. you're you're not going to be able to.

prevent this from happening.". >> Yeah. >> I think the record companies have. figured out how to make money off of. streaming and to make sure that the. artist probably doesn't get all that. much of it. >> Well, this is the beautiful thing about. being independent. If you're. independent, you can make money off of. streaming. And if you're independent, you had all of your touring revenue, which is really where it's at. You get. all of it. >> Make enough to pay for another tour. >> Well, this is what's Well, it depends on. how successful you are, but this is. what's really crazy about some of the. deals that some of these artists are. signing where the label gets a giant.

percentage of their touring money, >> which didn't used to be the case. It. used to be like an artist, >> they got to find a way to pull it in. somehow if they're not selling the. records. >> Exactly. They get a piece of merch. They. get a piece of this. They get a piece of. everything. They just own you. >> Yeah. >> And what value do they provide other. than you getting the security of saying, "I'm on Warner Brothers.". >> Just standing in the way every time you. try to put out an album, they go, "I. don't hear a hit here." It's like, "Well, cuz there are none. Okay, wait. for the next record. It's out in two.

months." You know, but they want to make. as as much as they possibly can off of. one record. the one record. It puts an. immense amount of pressure on an artist. without. without developing the artist at all. >> Uh it's. what's Hunter? It's the music industry. is a shallow money trench where good men. die like dogs, you know. >> Um. it's a racket. But don't you think that. now less of it? Because there are people.

like you out there. There's quote, you. know, Tyler the creator, didn't he make. most of his everything was just created. by himself online, right? That's. >> I don't know. >> Isn't that the case? >> I don't know. >> You don't know? >> I don't know. >> You don't know. >> But that's too hard. I don't know. Who. knows? >> Well, is it a weird one? >> I him specifically. I don't know. But I. would say. >> that's the story that's being told. >> Okay. But some people have done it, right? Oliver Anthony for sure did it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's, you know, it's a new pathway. If you have something that really. resonates like your United Health song.

or any of your songs, like that's all. you need, you know, and then that one. thing can change everything and then. people listen. >> Mhm. >> Totally. >> Yeah. And the fact that you're able to. do it completely independently, you're. able to have like a truly authentic. voice. Like it's like when you sing. about who's the guy that created it that. doesn't give a [ __ ] What's his name? >> Richard T. Burke. >> Yeah, Richard T. Burke that you can sing. about Richard T. Burke doesn't doesn't.

give a [ __ ] Like it's no one's in your. ear. >> Nobody's telling you to be careful. >> No. Yeah. No one's. >> So like I'm hearing I'm like Yeah. You. know it it people know they know when. something is authentic. It's real weird. >> They're [ __ ] the way people tune into. a song. It's there's something going on. with songs, you know? It's It's not just. like a bunch of music and a bunch of. lyrics. Like it changes the way you. feel.

>> Yeah. >> It's a drug. >> Yeah. >> It's a weird Like a good song is like a. good drug. >> Yeah, dude. Have you heard Freeird? >> Oh, [ __ ] yeah, >> dude. >> I've heard that song about a thousand. more than a thousand times. >> Yeah. >> A hundred thousand times maybe. >> Yeah. If you don't think music's a. Listen to Free List. >> Listen to that [ __ ] guitar solo. >> With the devil. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Whole lot of love. >> Yeah. >> It's fired up. >> There's songs. There's songs that change.

the way you feel that if that was a. drug, that would be a very valuable. drug. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> they're little little mood capsules, man. >> Yeah. >> I want to feel melancholy. Here's. Yesterday by the Beatles. >> Right. >> Right. Right. Yesterday. >> Yeah. There's a bunch of songs like. that. Captain Jack, >> you know that Captain Jack. >> Captain Jack will get you high tonight. >> Oh, I was thinking fantastic. >> Elton John. >> Captain Jack is one of Billy Joel's.

greatest songs. It's a great [ __ ]. song. It's guy living on Long Island. >> It's great. It's a great song. It's like. you listen to it, you're like, "God. damn, he nailed it. He [ __ ] nailed. it.". >> He's one of the greats, man. Dude, um I. really appreciate you coming in and I. really love what you're doing. Thanks. for. >> I just wanted to. >> wanted to have you in here, shoot the. [ __ ] with you, see what your process was. and how you think about things and I. really enjoyed it. >> Thanks for having me, Joe. >> My pleasure. Uh tell everybody what's.

the best place to find you and find your. stuff. >> Uh um, you know, I'm online, so go, you. know, get online. >> Do you have a What is your Instagram? >> Uh Wells Music. Wells music. >> There it is. We lls. >> Yeah. >> So it's wellsmusic.com. Tour dates are all there. >> Yeah. >> Go out and see them. Support, >> dude. Continued success and best of luck.

to you. I really I really enjoy what. you're doing. Thanks for having my. pleasure, brother. All right. Goodbye, everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].