Joe Rogan Experience #2363 - David Kipping

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> And we're up. What's up, man? How are. you? Pleasure to meet you, sir. >> Pleasure to be here. Thanks, J. >> I really enjoy your content online. It's. been really fascinating. So, I've been. doing a deep dive into a lot of your. videos over the last few days and. enjoying the hell out of it. and uh. particularly enjoying uh I wanted to. talk to you about so many different. things but one of the most pressing. things one of the reasons why I wanted.

to bring you in because you are very. knowledgeable in all things space is the. James Web telescope and uh all the. different stuff that they've been. finding particularly about these. galaxies that were formed very shortly. after not shortly you know not within. our our lifetime shortly but. >> cosmologically shortly after the big. bang. >> that uh It seems like we have to figure. out why these things are forming. Is the.

universe older? There's all this. different kind of speculation. Maybe the. big bang is not 13 whatever billion. years old, but maybe 22, 24. Like what. what is your take on all this? >> Yeah, the the James Web Space Telescope. is such an incredible instrument. The. data has just blown us away. You know, when you build this thing and you look. at it unfolding in space, you think. there's so many ways it could go wrong. that we all were just like, you know, there's I think it was 215 moving parts. or something had to unfold. So, you. know, just the fact that Yeah. The fact.

it just all worked was just remarkable. And then when we got those first images, they just kind of blew us away as well. because we had sort of these engineering. expectations of what it would do, but. the data was just even better than that. So when it, you know, of course the. first thing you want to do is point it. to the most distant part of the universe. and see what's out there in those. darkest patches. And so when it did. that, yeah, it started finding a couple. of things. Started finding quazars, which is kind of the uh the center of. these very active ga galaxies. These are. super massive black holes that have.

loads of crap falling in and they're. spewing out all this energy. They're. kind of feeding super massive black. holes. And so we started detecting those. way earlier than we thought the universe. should be able to build them because to. make a super massive black hole mean. things like a 100 million solar masses. Imagine that 100 million suns have have. not only been born but died gone through. their entire life cycle died collapsed. into a black hole and then those black. holes have presumably somehow merged. together into this super behemoth of. this 100 million solar mass thing. So.

we're finding those just you know 300. million years after the big bang and. that that was like hold on that that. doesn't make any sense like how how can. this be and similarly with the uh with. the galaxies we were seeing these images. these galaxies and you can date roughly. how old they should be based off the red. shift. So the you know the universe is. expanding. So therefore if something is. very far away from us the universe is. expanding its light gets stretched more. and more and more as it journeys over. space. And so we can use that red shift. to kind of date how old these things.

are. When we use those dates, we look at. these images again, they seem. suspiciously too too old. You know, you. really shouldn't be able to form these. things that early on in the universe. And so that kind of puzzled us. Um I. think for the galaxy thing, there's a. bit of a resolution there. One of the uh. resolutions is that we probably um. miscalculated how how easy it is to form. these galaxies in the first place. So we. had these models for galaxy formation. We had these models for how stars should. form, how quickly they should live. But.

it was all essentially calibrated on. what we see around us like right here in. this part of the universe in the local. universe. And then we kind of realized. that those same models probably need to. be tweaked if you're going to apply them. to the early universe where the density. is so much higher, the the gas. temperature is much hotter, everything's. just, you know, completely different, the early universe. So when you kind of. make those corrections, it actually. looks like maybe it's actually possible. to make those galaxies early than we. thought. So I think the galaxy problem. is a bit easier to explain. I think the.

quazar problem to me is more. interesting. How do you get those super. massive black holes so early? Um there's. a certain kind of maximum rate you can. feed these things called the Edington. limit. And that's sort of you throw mass. into a black hole and so much energy is. going in, some of it spews back out. And. the energy which spews back out stops. other stuff coming in. Right? So there's. a maximum limit. You can't build a black. hole faster in principle than this. Edington limit. And yet when you do the. calculation, these black holes must have. been fed what we call super Edington. So.

faster than Edington. So something's. wrong with our models, right? Either. either we've got the universe age wrong, which I think is possible, but I would. say that's probably a much less likely. solution, or we've got the astrophysics. wrong. Why do you think that the. universe's age is a less likely. solution? >> Because we've got this this you know. like in particle physics you got the. standard model which includes like all. the particles and the electron the. baronss all these kind of stuff and in. cosmology we have a similar kind of. model it's called lambda cdm and so the.

lambda stands for dark energy and the. cdm is cold dark matter. So this is our. standard model and we have used it to. explain so much stuff in the universe. Joe I mean we're talking about the. cosmic microwave background um. oscillations in the sky these barionic. acoustic oscillations the stretching of. the universe sephieds you can use it to. explain so much stuff and it works. beautifully I mean it works down to like. the 01% level so if you say the universe. age is wrong you have to give that up so.

maybe it is maybe it is wrong but if you. give that you have to come up with a. radical new idea which can now explain. all of this stuff at that same level of. precision. The much more likely answer. in my book is that astrophysics like the. you know gas swirling around the plasma. colliding with each other that's just. more complicated in my mind than the the. natural model of just the simple. expansion of the universe which actually. is a fairly simple geometric model. fairly simple in that you can use.

whatever methods that we're using. currently to measure everything that's. out there and it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> But. >> if we're le if we're using something. like the James Web telescope, so we're. getting a much deeper view of the. universe, >> how limited is the James Web in. comparison to James Webb 2.0 3 like are. we going to have to continually revamp. what our understanding of this process. is. >> yes we will that that's that's what I.

love right that's what scientists love. every time we've built a telescope that. is you know uh 10 times more precise. than the last thing every time we've. done that we have been surprised and so. these early galaxies are a good example. um the cosmological experiments that are. going on now one of the big like. surprises is this thing called the. Hubble tension have you heard of that. Hubble tension. >> so Herbble tension is measuring the. expansion rate of the universe how fast. are things flying apart and you can do. it two ways you can use the uh cosmic. microwave backgrounds. That's the.

earliest radiation that we can detect. This is that stuff that's about 3 Kelvin. warm. You can detect in the microwave. And this is the light which has traveled. basically when the universe was 380,000. years old. It's that light and we see it. in all directions. That's how we know. the big bang kind of didn't happen in. one place. It happened everywhere. because you just see this light coming. in from all directions. And from. studying that that radiation you can you. can kind of get a model of the universe. and then you can calculate using this. model how fast should the universe be. expanding today if I run the clock. forward and you get a number. And then.

if you do that same experiment but. locally you actually measure the stars. you measure the supernova around us. these pulsating stars and you actually. measure how fast is stuff expanding you. get a different number. They don't line. up. And so this is really weird. So. somehow something's wrong right? either. our measurements of the local universe. must be wrong in some way or this model. that we're using to calculate the whole. history of the universe. Something is. wrong with that model. So this is a very.

famous growing problem in cosmology. It's now what we call a five sigma. level. So that means the chance of this. being random is just like zero. essentially. It's just this this is a. real effect. And now we just have to. figure out who's wrong. Is it the. observers or is it the theorists? >> Wow. where do you fall on this? >> Yeah, it's hard. I'm I go I swing. between both ways. You know, I'll talk. to my cosmology colleagues and they'll, you know, depending on who I talk to, they'll convince me either way. Um, so I.

think the. >> that's disturbing that people are. convinced, >> you know, if this if these new. telescopes keep showing us this new. puzzle, >> it's kind of it always bothers me when. someone is like rigidly convinced. Every. everyone has a certain pet theory, right? They're trying to push. Yeah. I. mean, we all have biases, right? Yeah. So, >> human beings. >> Yeah. I mean, if you've spent it's hard, right? If you've spent 20 years of your. life, your you know, most of your. academic career. >> Yeah. >> studying this one thing, >> it's really hard to turn around and say,

you know what, I screwed up, right? The. last 20 years of measurements, they were. all wrong and I have to eat humble pie. That's not easy. But it has happened in. some cases. One of my f favorite stories. about this is a the fir the first. exoplanet that was ever claimed a planet. around another star. Uh one of the first. ones it was um wrong. So it was it was a. a pulsar that had a planet a supposed. planet around it on a six-month orbital. period. So exactly half the earth's. orbital period around the sun. And they.

saw this signal in their data. This this. pulsating star was doing something weird. and they figured out there was a. six-month period around it. So the the. dude published this paper uh Matthew. Bales brilliant astronomer and he. realized later on it was wrong and. instead of it being a real planet he. hadn't quite corrected the orbital. eentricity of the earth. So the earth is. not in a circular orbit. Its. eccentricity is 0167. It's a tiny number. but that number hadn't been accounted. for in the calculation. And so he had to. stand up in front of hundreds of.

astronomers at this famous IOU meeting. and he admitted he was wrong and he got. a standing ovation. >> Oh, good for him. >> It's awesome. It's one of the few times. I've heard someone doing that and I. think it's dope. I think we need to. encourage people to. >> Well, with something that's so massive. and is such a puzzle, this is just bound. to happen. If you get people that are. rigidly attached to their belief systems. in in terms of like a very limited. understanding of a fantastic thing that. is almost beyond imagination, when you. think about the this the sheer size of.

the universe and the age of the. universe, I mean, when we're talking. about aging and we say 13 billion or 22. billion, those numbers don't even. register in your mind. They're not real. >> You know what I mean? It's like that you. see a one and a three and you kind of. get it, but you don't get it. You can't intuit it. >> No, it's not possible for our puny. little minds to imagine 13 plus billion. years. >> It's just too crazy. So if you're rigid.

with that, like God, man. >> Yeah. >> Like I mean part part of the journey in. being a scientist is is knowing what. your own biases are. And I I remember, you know, one of my threads of my career. has been trying to look for exomoons, moons around these exoplanets, which. would be a first if we got them. So. that's, you know, it's a big deal, like. you know, if I succeed at this, there. could be like, you know, golden prizes, award ceremonies, like you you kind of. get that glim in your eye like, oh man, this could I could be memorialized for. this success. And so that's that's. alluring, right? That's tempting. It's.

kind of the same temptation as fame. >> And I remember once we had this signal, it was Kepler 90. Uh, no, PH2B was the. name of the planet. And we had this. signal and it kind of looked like just. what we expect for an exomoon. I. remember I was so excited I had to I was. at Harvard at the time. I had to walk. out the building, had to go to a park. bench and I had to just take like deep. breaths. I was like this this could be. it. You know, this is the thing I've. been searching for. And I was like. almost hyperventilating with with. excitement. And then I remember in that.

moment. >> that's how you know you're in the right. job. >> Right. Right. Yeah. Passion was the job. Yeah. >> And I remember thinking to myself after. calming myself down a little bit, I want. this to be true too much. you know, like. this is of all the people in the world, I want this to be true the most. So. therefore, let's flip that around and. I'm going to have to be the greatest. skeptic of this thing because I know I. want it to be so bad that I have to. correct the other direction. And it. ended up being [ __ ] I mean, it. ended up being uh the telescope just.

misbehaved, had this weird effect called. a sudden pixel dropout effect. this. weird anomaly happens one in like a 100. thousand times, but it just so happened. to pop right then, right there in the. data. >> What do we know about the consistency of. solar systems and galaxies being formed? We know they vary in size. Do we. understand why? And we understand what. causes them to form in the first place.

Yeah, we're still learning that the, you. know, we had this picture before we. started finding exoplanets that. everything would just be like the solar. system. You we have these these eight. planets circular orbits. You have the. rocky planets on the inside, the gas. giants on the outside. And we came up. with this really elegant theory, this. kind of nebula theory to try and explain. that and did a great job. It explained. everything. But then as soon as we. started to find exoplanets, I mean, one. of the first type exoplanets we found. was these hot Jupiters. So these are. Jupiterized planets which are about 20. times closer to their star than Mercury. is around the sun. And when those were.

first announced, nobody believed them. People like you can't you can't get a. Jupiter there. Like Jupiter is supposed. to be 5AU. How do you get it parked on. almost onto the surface of the star? Doesn't make any sense. No none of the. planet formation models could explain. that. And it took until we found about. 10 of them in a row that people started. slowly changing their minds. And the. proof of the pudding was when one of. them eclipsed its star. So, one of them. actually passed right in front of the. star right at the moment it was supposed. to and we saw an eclipse. And when that. happened, everyone was like, "All right, this is this is real." But then we had.

to figure out how the hell do you do. that? So, there was a long there was a. long skeptical curve to get to that. point. And now we think the way to make. those things is there's probably. Jupiter's on the outside of the solar. system. They come too close to each. other. They gravitation like kind of. wrestling almost. They kind of excite. each other. But one of them gets kicked. out in a random direction and it can get. flung into a highly eccentric orbit. And. a highly eccentric orbit over time will. circularize. So it doesn't want to stay. on an eccentric orbit. It wants to turn. into a circle through the tidal.

interactions with a star. So these. things probably circularize really close. onto their stars. But this is unusual. Only happens about 1% of star systems we. see this. But it's an example of how. diverse things are. Um another example. is mini neptunes. You ever heard of. those planets? >> No. So mini Neptunes are these planets. which are in between the size of the. Earth and Neptune. Neptune's about four. times bigger than the Earth. So these. things are about twice the size of the. Earth. We don't have anything like that. in the solar system. So we don't know. what it is. Is it a big rock? Is it like.

a super Earth, a mega earth? Or is it a. scaled down version of Neptune? Is like. an ocean world maybe of some kind? And. turns out that planet is the most common. type of planet in the universe as far as. we can tell. And we don't have one. Wow. >> So, that's kind of weird, right? I mean, it seems like there's so many aspects of. our solar system that are unusual. Even. having a Jupiter, only 10% of stars have. a Jupiter, as far as we can tell. >> 10% of how many stars that have been. observed. >> Oh, at this point, I mean, we've.

observed hundreds of thousands of stars. Um, and we know of about 6,000. exoplanets. So, of that population, you. correct for the assist, correct for the. ones you've missed even. So, I mean, these Jupiters are the easiest ones to. find, right? They're the big boys. They're easy. They wobble the star a. ton, so they're pretty easy to spot. Um, so we're pretty confident that sunlike. stars, it's it's kind of not typical for. them to have these Jupiter sized. planets, and we've got two of them. So. that seems interesting, right? To our to. our own origin in the solar system. And. simply having eight planets, that's. pretty unusual. We don't see many.

systems with that many planets packed. together. >> How many solar systems are binary solar. systems as opposed to having a single. star? >> Yeah, about half of all stars live in. binary systems. >> Really? It's very common. So actually. Alpha Centuri AB, that's the nearest. star system to us and it's actually a. trinary. There's Alpha AB that go around. each other. They're really close. And. then there's Proxima Centuri which is on. the outside. And actually just this. morning, Joe, just this morning there. was an announcement of a giant planet.

around Alpha Sen. It's a candidate. We don't know if it's. confirmed yet, but it's it's kind of in. the habitable zone. So the distance. where in principle you could have liquid. water on the surface of a rocky planet. >> So it is a candidate for a planet or. like it has been so it hasn't been. completely confirmed. >> James Webb just spotted it. James Web. spotted it just just come out today. So. there's three photos that James Webb. took. Maybe they'll be in this article. somewhere. Took three images and in one. of those images it captures an actual.

photo of the planet. You can see the. planet in direct light. That's how. powerful James Web is. And it's a nearby star, so it's easy to. image. Yeah. Right here. So. that S1, that's the planet you're. looking at. >> Wow. >> So you see, you have to block out the. star in the middle because the star is. like a billion times brighter than the. planet. So you have to suppress it with. all this advanced chronograph technology. that James Web has. But when you do that. and you zoom right in, you see this. little planet there. It's probably about.

the same size as Saturn. It's probably a. big boy. I love how they went with the. real clickbay headline with Avatar. Planet. The other the other article that. you pulled up was this. >> I was quot I was quoting that one. So, I. know. >> planet from the Avatar movies may exist. in real life. Like, shut up. You're just. trying to get people to click on that. Is it It's kind of weird that they have. to do that, but like this is the world. we're living in now. Everyone has such a. short attention span. You're funneling. through your Google feed. Like, what's. new? >> Yeah. It's got to connect to something. pop culture otherwise people are like, >> "Yeah, it's got to get you somehow.".

like some there's some editor who. >> it's probably more like you know um the. threebody problem the the books and the. show. >> Yes. >> Is the tricolarans and they live there. >> Ah. >> so there's the three stars tricolaren. and it's the dynamics is so crazy that. it pushes these planets into these. highly eccentric and twisted orbits and. that's exactly what this planet appears. to be. So this planet actually looks. more like rather than avatar it actually. looks more like tricolaren or solaris. whatever it's called. Pull that article.

back up again, please, Jamie. >> The the second one, the one that was. less clickbaity. So, how large is this planet? This S1, it's. hard to tell. It looks like it's about a. hundred times heavier than the Earth. So, that's about Saturn. >> Wow. Roughly Saturn, but it's only a. candidate, right? So, we need to we need. to get more images of it to to confirm. that it's real. So, I'm sure James will. point back at it. But, I mean, look at. it. It it looks pretty convincing. I. mean, how do you get that big blob of. light sat there? So I think the signal.

to noise is really good. >> So do because they vary so much in the. the way these galaxies and the way these. solar systems are constructed. Do we. know why they're constructed in the. first place? Like why why do they form. in that way? Like why does Bod's law. work? Does it still work? It kind of. works but it makes some bad law. Yeah. So B's law is essentially looking at the. separation between the planets in the. solar system. So Venus for instance well.

Mercury is about 04 AU. Uh Venus is 7, the Earth is one and Mars is 1.5. So. there seems to be a pattern and I think. it's like a fraction of 1.5 or something. in terms of like take the last one and. just multiply by 1.5 and you roughly. >> and is it dependent upon the mass of the. planet? >> No, it's just it's just purely their. spacing. So it it was uh yeah, it has. some problems though. It doesn't. particularly work that well. It predicts. there's a planet where the asteroid belt. is, and obviously there isn't one there, but maybe you could argue something. >> That's probably why the asteroid belt's. there, right?

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responsibly. Product availability varies. by region. See app for details. Um but. then more more problematically, people. have tried to apply this to exoplanets. So you got these multiplanet systems and. we know of like maybe three or four. planets and there's gaps and so you can. say okay let's use B's law and predict. okay there should be a planet right here. and then people have done the. observations they like dialed in and put. all the telescopes on be like where's. that planet sometimes they found the. planets there but usually not it doesn't. it's not that predictive how common are.

asteroid belts. >> we don't know we can't detect asteroid. belts. >> right that's the question so in these. gaps where a planet should be what if. there was an asteroid belt in every one. of them that kind of change everything. >> That'd be wild. I'd love that. Yeah. Then we'd be back to Bod's law. I mean, but Bod's law, I guess it's it's. actually really a statement. There was a. great um dynamicist at Princeton, Scott. Tmaine, and he showed this that if you. just try to pack plants as close as you. can, like just shove them in like. sardines into the solar system, some of. them will become unstable and just get. kicked out, and the ones that are left. will follow boat's law. So, it's it's.

not so much a um a statement of like, you know, some deity is putting these. planets at the right places. It's that. if you just cram stuff in as much as you. can, that's what you end up with. Like. you just can't cram plants any closer. together. >> So what is our current belief system. when it comes to the formation of solar. systems? >> It appears to be very common. I mean, when we look at the data we have from. the Kepler mission, NASA's extraordinary. successful mission, it detected itself. something like 4,000 exoplanets. And.

that tells us that on average, every. single star has a planet. So, as far as. we can tell, this is it's pretty hard. for a star not to have planets. It's. like part for the course for that to. happen. That was a big breakthrough. Um, the second thing is, as we kind of. alluded to, there's a huge diversity in. them. And the actual story we normally. describe for how they form is that. there's some, you know, giant molecular. cloud we call it. So, basically a giant. cloud of hydrogen in space. stuff that. could have been blown off from a. previous supernova or something or maybe.

even in the early universe just. primordial gas from the big bang just. this leftover hydrogen gas and if. there's be some areas where there'll be. slightly higher density and some areas. where there slightly lower density just. due to random fluctuations and the. higher densities will self-gravitate. So. gravity wants to make it's like a greedy. algorithm wants to make everything get. denser and denser and denser. It's super. greedy. It's relentless. Gravity never. stops and that's why eventually we end. up with black holes, right? Because it. just it just refuses to lose black hole. Gravity just always wants to win the. game. So eventually these clouds.

collapse and the thing that stops them. from collapsing into a black hole is. that you start getting fusion in the. center, right? Because the temperatures. get so hot as you compress this gas that. you basically make a star in the center. And the stuff that's left over on the. outside, that disc of material, because. the star kind of blasts out of its poles. and kind of pummels all the gas north. and south, you end up with a dis of. material, the centrifugal forces like. spinning a pizza ball, which kind of. forc it into a disc. And then from that. disc, you start to coalesce again. Just. some areas are slightly denser, some.

areas are slightly less dense, and. gravity again takes over and starts to. collapse things together. So we have. this story, but there's lots of parts of. the story that we don't understand. So, we know how to go for instance from um. from pebbles. If you start off with. pebbles and imagine them kind of. bouncing around, we can imagine sticking. them into boulders. We kind of. understand how that could happen, but we. don't quite understand how to do some of. the steps like go all the way from dust, which presumably at one point was just. dust. How do you go from dust all the. way up to pebbles all the way up to. these boulders all the way up to planet.

decimals? That whole story we don't. understand. We get we've got bits of it. where we think we understand it, but the. whole thing we don't. Are there any. working models or any. >> Yeah, this is a hugely huge active area. of research. People are simulating dust. on supercomputers trying to stick it. together, figure out what happened. Um, but it's chaotic. I mean, you've got. trillions and trillions of particles of. dust randomly moving around and solving. the equations to calculate their motion. is one of the most challenging things.

ever. Maybe AI will help a big part with. that. >> That would be interesting. Is it also a. factor of the size of the sun? like our. star is fairly small in terms of the. what we know about the universe. One of. the most amazing videos that I I tend to. send people online is the video that. shows. >> I know that what you mean. >> You know, it shows Earth in comparison. to our star and then it shows our star. in comparison to some slightly larger. stars. Then it goes on and on and on. till you get to like Beetlejuice and you. get to some of these. It just gets so.

crazy. >> It's got to stop at some point. It just. keeps going. It's like a galaxyized. star. Like what is that thing? It gets. so nutty. It's so big. >> Strange. Yeah. Yeah. I mean our star is. I mean those big stars those are. actually rare, right? So those are the. giant stars of the universe and most. stars are not that big. >> What is the biggest one that we found? >> Oh I don't know the name but yeah I. think you're talking about stars which. are probably uh filling up to the orbit. of Jupiter type size. Yeah. >> So from here to Jupiter. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. Just imagine a star from our.

sun that goes all the way out to. Jupiter. It's nuts. Yeah. >> Wow. >> And these things are barely stars at. that point. Like if you actually if you. could zoom in a spaceship and look at. the surface, it would it would the. gravity would be so weak at that point, right? Because the mass hasn't changed. of the star. In fact, if anything, it's. lost mass. So, it's barely got enough. gravity to hold that thing together. So, the thing is like fluctuating. It's like. a giant sheet that someone's waving up.

and down. So that's why those stars have. these wildu fluctuations in in uh. brightness cuz they're just kind of. undulating on their surface. >> What is this one, Jamie? Is this the. largest one? >> That's the name of the biggest one, I. guess. >> Stevenson 218. What is the little tiny. one on the far left? >> That's our son. >> It's so crazy. Look how big that. there's. >> Look at our sun in comparison to that. thing. Oh my god. And what's crazy is. that the most common type of star in the. universe is even smaller than the sun.

So yeah, the most common type of star in. the universe is red dwarf. >> 75% of all stars are red dwarfs. Only. 10% of stars look like our sun. So. already that's kind of odd. You kind of. think all things being equal, how come. we don't live around a red dwarf, >> right? And what is causing one to be so. massive and and another solar system, you know, fairly close to it to be small. and like what is. >> Yeah, the difference is it's it's always. easier to make a small thing, right? It's kind of like um having crumbs down.

your sofa or something like breaking up, right? It's easier to have small dusty. things than it is to have huge pieces of. cookies still left in the bottom of your. sofa. So, generally, it's pretty hard. for the conditions to come together to. make a gigantic super massive star. In. the early universe, those conditions. were present more often because it just. it was just so dense. Um, but as we go. forward in time, it gets harder and. harder to make those uh super huge. behemoths. These stars called they're. called the the the type three population. stars. And we haven't found one of. those. James Web might be able to detect. one. Those would be the first stars ever.

born. They're like the primordial. pristine stars that would be. uncontaminated by any metals. Right? So, our sun has a ton of metals in it. Most. stars do. We can use that to figure out. how old they are and their history. But. the first stars would have been just. these pure pristine hydrogen helium. things. We'd love to be able to see what. they look like. I mean, because we've. never seen one of those up close. But. generally, yeah, the smaller you are, the easier it is to make that star. >> and the anticipation of the existence of. of those things. Like how far away are. we talking about?

>> Yeah, those stars would be the first. star. So, you're probably looking at 100. million years after the Big Bang. Um, so. you're, yeah, you'd have to look back. to, you know, 13.7 13.8 billion years. ago. >> Is the James Web capable of seeing that? >> I think there's I think it's possible. Um, yeah, this isn't uh I don't think. there's consensus on this. I've seen. some people say it might just about be. possible and others say it's completely. impossible. You need the next. generation. But I think if we're lucky, it could just happen. >> How many next generations do you. anticipate? And I could see AI coming.

into play with that with constructing. something novel that can see things in a. way that we're not, you know, currently. using like we're thinking about what we. do. >> and you're explaining how the James web. works with over 200 moving parts and you. have to shoot it into the sky and flames. and rockets like and then you get this. thing out there that starts observing. and starts taking photographs. We're so limited in what we can see.

It's It's still a device that's in. space. >> Yeah. >> And it's a device that's so close to us. >> Yeah. >> It's just so close. Relatively speaking, you know, it takes forever to get there. It's really powerful rockets and all. that, but it's just right there. >> Like what could we come up with without. AI? like what what theories are in place. to make something that has a far wider. range and uh much more clarity. Yeah. The ultimate I mean I love this idea of. thinking about what would an alien do?

How would an alien observe the earth if. they had you know unbounded technology? What would be the limit? And a lot of us. think that the ultimate telescope would. be uh to use the sun as a telescope. So. the sun has intense gravity and it bends. light. So this was an experiment that. Arthur Edington did to prove Einstein, right? Uh general relativity. He took. photographs of the stars during um a. lunar total eclipse. And he noticed that. stars seem to shift right next to the. sun. And so he used that to figure out. how much light bends. So whenever you.

have light bending, that's a telescope. That's a mirror. So you can take light. that's coming from behind the sun, it'll. bend to a focus. And that focus point, we know where it is. You can calculate. it. It's about 550 times further out. than we are around the sun. So 550 AU. and along if you just travel out in a. line from that point that's called a. focal line. You put a telescope there, it would essentially have the collecting. area of the sun. So you could image. continents, rivers, even cities on a.

nearby exoplanet if you could put. something there. It'd be wild. That is. that is the ultimate in my book for what. an alien would do. If they wanted to. observe Earth, they would just behind. their sun, they'd stick one of those. telescopes and they'd be able to monitor. a hell of a lot about the Earth from. there. >> And this is just with our understanding. of telescopes and our understanding of. viewing things. And clearly, you could. imagine with. >> known physics. Yeah. With known physics, >> you can imagine physics that are a. million years more technologically.

advanced and innovations that we can't. even comprehend, >> can't even conceive of. >> that change everything. >> I mean, I mean, even with this. telescope, you can't see people, right? You won't be able to image us. So you. wouldn't be able to read like the. headlines on a newspaper on someone's. doorstep. It's not powerful enough to do. that. If you want to do that, you'd have. to visit the system. And so we're. talking about doing that as well. So. there was this project starshot that. wanted to fly a probe directly towards. the nearest star, fly by super fast, snap a photo, and beam it back cuz that. way you could actually get even better. resolution, right? You could really dial.

in and see roads and structures on the. surface. >> How long would it take for that beam to. get back to us? >> Well, it's four light years away. 4.2. light years away. >> So it take four years. Yeah. And it. would take it about 20 years to do the. journey at the speeds they were talking. They want to get 20% the speed of light. >> So they take 20 years, take a photo. So. 24 years all together. So this was Yuri. Milner's brainchild and his dream was. that he could see a photo in his. lifetime of another Earthlike planet. And that's pretty much the best way we. have to really pull that off in the. >> Is the work being done to try to make.

that happen? >> Yeah. So I'm not sure the current status. of Starshot. um Yori put a $100 million. up I believe for you know his own money. and I think Mark Zuckerberg came in on. it and they were like we're going to try. and do this. Um I wasn't part of that. project but I was inspired by it and I. actually um came up with a twist on it. recently called Tar from Interstellar. You know Tar from the movie? >> What was Tar? >> It's like a robot thing that's in the. movie. It's called Tar. >> And so I came up with a a twist on on.

their idea. here. So, let me explain. their idea quickly first and then I'll. give you my twist. Their idea is like if. you really want to go to the nearest. star system, you're not going to do it. with a giant spaceship. That's just, you. know, we can't build anything that. advanced right now. The most realistic. thing we can do is to get a tiny thin. sheet of material, like imagine like a. piece of myar, piece of aluminum foil, and blast it with light with a laser. And so, they're talking about sort of. 100 gawatt of laser power, right? So, just kind of crazy amounts of energy.

Yeah. Oh, here's here's a 3D. >> So, here's the sail being ejected. And. then back on the Earth, you're going to. have this huge array of mega lasers, and. they're all going to point up at this. thing and blast it. So, this thing will. accelerate due to just light from the. sun, but this has given it, this is like. on steroids, right? You're just kind of. bumping it up to whatever speed you. want. Um, now that, you know, when. people saw this idea, physics saw this. idea, there was a lot of questions about. how, you know, isn't that going to. destroy the sale? Like, you're firing. 100 gawatt laser at a sail. Like isn't.

that going to obliterate the thing? So. this thing has to be outrageously shiny. to avoid burning up in the beam. And. then of course like how do you you know. what if it hits dust on the way? Isn't. that great? Like that's why it's on its. side now. So it's twisted over on its. side to try and avoid smashing into dust. particles on its journey. >> Hopefully a flock of birds doesn't catch. a stray. >> Yeah. And here it comes into Proxima. Centuri into the Alpha Centtory system. There's Proximan down the right. It's. going to fly past there's there is.

actually a planet there. We know there's. a planet there. It's going to fly past. it and try and snap a photo. There it. is. And then beam that bad boy back. >> Wow. >> And that's hard. I mean, how do you even. get the data transmission rate, right, to beam an image back? >> Just imagine if it gets there and we see. lights. >> That'd be crazy. >> No, it's so This episode is brought to. you by Simply Safe. We go to doctors and. dentists for checkups for a reason. to. make sure that everything's fine and to. tackle anything before it turns into.

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There's no safe like simplysafe. I mean, the possibility of life has. always been like in front of our face. There's just the the cosmos is so great. and so massive. You've got the Fermy. paradox like where are they? Why aren't. they here? And then you've got what's. happening here on Earth. And it just. always makes me wonder like how far do. things actually get before they fall. apart. Do they always fall apart? Has it. or do they always become non-biological. and not have the need for all the things. that we do that show signs of life?

>> Yeah. like the certain gases that. biological life exceeds like what what. could what could be out there could be. something beyond our wildest imagination. like many iterations of artificial. intelligence. >> many down the road to the point where. it's not even recognizable as life and. doesn't even have to have a physical. form. >> yeah obviously if it's completely. recognizable there's nothing we can. really do to detect it but when we look.

I mean we basically know two things. about the universe in terms of life in. it. We know that we have not been. colonized, right? As far as we can tell, >> allegedly. >> Yeah, allegedly. >> Depends on whose uh YouTube videos you. watch. >> But let's talk. >> let's let's talk about like a hard. colonization where it's like literally. it's transforming the freaking planet. into machines. Like that clearly has not. happened here. We're not gray goo on the. surface yet. >> So we know that hasn't happened yet. And. we also know and the universe, you know, the galaxy is old. 13 billion years old.

So there's there's a heck of a lot of. time for that to happen. You know, one. of the one of the strangest uh facets of. our technology is that it's already fast. enough to explore the whole galaxy. If. you take Voyager Voyager 2, it was. traveling at 15 km/s. So that would get you across the entire. diameter of the galaxy in two billion. years. And the galaxy's 13 billion. years. So Voyager 2 at Voyager 2 speeds. crappy alien technology out there could. already have spanned the whole thing if.

they just arrived early enough. So it is. a problem. Um and this is called fact a. heart's fact a this clearly hasn't. happened. That's one thing we know for. sure. And the other thing we know for. sure is that when we look out we don't. see you know we look at these stars like. Stevenson and Proxima Centuri. We don't. see engineering on them as as far as we. can tell. We don't see stars which are. obviously got mega structures around. them. Obviously been engineered in weird. ways. >> And when you say mega structures, you're. talking about like literally an. artificial planetized thing.

>> Yeah. I mean huge structures could be. built around these things like Dyson. spheres and people have talked about. doing it for messaging. Like you could. put like sheets of material that were. planet sized and as they block light. from the star that would create like a. Morse code, right? You could actually. message people for billions of years. You would just build these stable sheets. of material and they would just orbit. around. No power system required, right? An orbit doesn't require power. It would. just orbit around for billions of years. and every time an eclipse is the star, there could be some intricate pattern of. pulses. And so that way you could.

communicate for for a very long time. You know, we thought of all these wild. ideas and we just don't see any of that. So, it does seem as far as we can tell. that the universe is completely natural. And that is mind-blowing because you're. right, like it seems, if it's happened. here, why the hell shouldn't it have. happened elsewhere? Why hasn't someone. else got AI going crazy? Why haven't. someone else gone even further than. that? Gone to the next level. So, and. the thing that really drives me wild. with this is is the Earth is like a. paradise, right? If you look at these.

other stars, these other planets, the. Earth is unusual. Most stars do not have. an Earthlike planet. It's like a level. of maybe 1 2% at best. And yet here we. have the Earth. It not only is an. Earthlike planet, has the right. conditions for life. It has life on it. So an alien could use their sunsized. telescope to figure that out. They would. know we were here. They would know not. only we're here, but that there is. complex life on this planet. So for. three and a half, three billion years. there was just simple life, just. single-sellled life on this planet.

Multisellular life is a recent thing. So. presumably that's rare, right? If if. most of the time it's single-sellled, most of the planets out there presumably. even if they have life on them are in. that state. And then further there's us. here, right? And we're going through. this this transitional point as a human. society. So you think if you're an. anthropologist, this would be like an incredibly. fascinating world to study. >> So it I think there's almost like a. tourism paradox. How come Earth is the. perfect place to visit and yet uh we. don't see uh any super obvious signs?

Some people have, you know, feel. differently about that, but certainly. astronomers, we don't see in our in our. telescope data, uh, spaceships flying. out through our field of view. But. wouldn't the obvious answer to that be. that if you're dealing with technology. that's so advanced that it could get. here from other solar systems light. years away hundreds thousands of light. years away. >> that it would be doing it in a way that. probably be would wouldn't using.

propulsion the way we know it would. probably be using some sort of a. manipulation of gravity and also they. would have the ability to completely. camouflage themselves. Yeah, >> which would be ideal if you want to. study things. Have you ever seen Chimp. Nation. >> on Netflix? >> Great series. It's a it's an amazing. documentary where these um these. scientists were embedded in this group. of chimpanzees for 20 years. So, the. chimpanzees had become completely.

>> conditioned to having these people. around them. And they had specific. rules. You don't make eye contact with. them. You stay 20 yards away from them. No food ever. and just exist around them. and they'll behave completely normally. And so you get this wild incredible. series of chimpanzeee behavior. You get. to see how they behave completely. just not even remotely in consideration. of these human beings. They don't even. think about them. They're just doing. what they do.

>> If you wanted to observe human beings, the worst way to do it would be like fly. a giant spaceship over them and freak. them out. Yeah. You know, like you'd. want to know like what are these [ __ ]. up to? Like where are they at now in. terms of our technological innovation. scale of achieving AGI or achieving what. whatever happens to other biological. entities outside the universe? There. might be like a a process that happens. regardless of your if you're mamillian.

or reptilian or like what whatever kind. of intelligence that you like. Obviously, we know that crows are very. different than us, but they're highly. intelligent. You can imagine a crow with. thumbs. You can imagine a crow that has. fingers and then lives somewhere else. and can. So, it doesn't have to be just. like us, but it has to be trying to. figure out how to manipulate its. environment, which is one of the key. things that intelligent life, at least. as we know it. Well, we're really one of. the only ones that do it that's. intelligent. Like, we But that's kind of.

an environmental thing because of. dolphins and orcas. They don't there's. no need to do that evolutionarily. >> So if you imagine that. there's a a whole process that takes. place, you would you would probably. imagine that this is something that you. would monitor anonymously. You would. want to be hidden. >> Yeah. If you want to do a proper. anthropology experiment, you don't want. to interfere with the experiment. But. then the problem with that is it becomes. essentially unscientific. Right. So if. if you come up with a hypothesis that.

says there's aliens here, but they're. completely by definition undetectable to. us, >> right? >> Then it sort of for it's not like it's. an incredible idea. It doesn't mean the. idea is wrong. It just means I don't. have science is not going to have the. tools to answer that question. >> Of course, because there's no evidence. >> I mean, Sean, I think had this famous. example like this dragon where he said, um, uh, imagine I've got Carl Sean. imagine he had like this pet dragon and. he he'd talk to people and say, I've got. a pet dragon in the room with me. And. they'd be like, well, where is it? Oh, you can't see it cuz it's invisible. So. they they'd walk across the room and.

they they try to touch it and be like, I. can't I can't feel it. It's like, oh. yeah, you can't you can't feel it. either. It's also impervious to touch. So, okay. So, I'll put my infrared. goggles on trying to see the heat. signature. Oh, you can't see that. either. It doesn't emit any any. radiation. So, you can just keep going. and going saying it's just completely. imperceptible. And then it's fine. You. can have that idea that you have a pet. invisible imperceptible dragon, but I. can't address that with the tools of. science. So, >> uh, I'm not saying it's a crazy idea. It's just that I I can't think of a way. to actually test it.

>> But when you hear about particularly the. ones the the stories of UAP or UFO. encounters, the ones that intrigue me. the most are the ones that are military. pilots, that people that know the. difference between flock of birds and. weird anomalies. >> When have you aware of the tic tac. incident? Yeah. So when you hear about. things like that and you in my mind. there's a couple possibilities. One. super advanced blacklisted military.

some sort of a propulsion system that. they've been working on for decades. completely in secrecy and they're. testing them o off of areas where you. have a lot of military activity which is. where these things do take place. One of. them was San Diego. That's the Nimmits. And the other one, the Ryan Graves. footage, the stuff that they get, that's. on the East Coast. But it's all in areas. where they already do military training. exercises with fighter jets. >> So, it would make sense that that's. where you, if this was the United States. government doing that stuff, they would.

do that. But when you get back to like. 2004 and you're talking about something. that can go from 50,000 ft above sea. level to sea level in less than a. second, like I think it's 78 of a second. it went. You have visual confirmation. You have radar. You have video of it. You have two different jets that see. this thing. They no one understands what. it is. It flies directly to their cat. point where their meetup point was. supposed to be. The whole thing's nuts. >> Yeah, it's it's f I I would love to know. what the hell happened. I think like.

everyone, I'm fascinated by it. >> You can't throw it away. It's one of. those ones you can't throw I throw most. of them away. Most of them I I I love. UFO stories because they're fun. >> Yeah. >> But most of them like could be anything. Something shady going on. >> Could be anything. Could be people want. attention. Could be military exercises. Could be mass delusion. Could be people. just love to be special and have had. some sort of an encounter, which they. do. It gives them some sort of social. credit to have some sort of an encounter. with a thing and they exaggerate. And.

people love love to exaggerate. >> Yeah. I'd love to make this ingestable. to science. That's sort of been my goal. like how can science take a hold of this. >> and you know when we do these. experiments I told you about this this. moon that I thought I found and it. turned out was the instrument being. crazy. >> right because sometimes instruments do. crazy stuff that we don't understand so. the only way to figure that out is to. get hold of the instrument right we need. to get it in our labs and take that. thing apart and test it and calibrate it. etc and we don't have access to those. military devices it's all top secret so.

we can't even do that experiment but I. can imagine thinking about how to do. that Um, one of the big numbers we don't. know even with the visual reports is the. false positive rate. So this is a key. number in science. Whenever you do an. experiment, you need to know how often. does the experiment produce something. that's spirious, the false positive. rate. Now in the US, there's about uh. 28,000 pilots across all military. branches and they fly something like 200. hours per year on average. So that's 5.6. million hours in the air every year in.

one year. Now, let's say a pilot, one in. every 10,000 hours that they fly, they. they make a mistake. They misidentify a. balloon for a UAP or whatever it is. One. in 10,000. That's an incredibly low, by. the way, error rate to have. But even. then, you'd end up with 560 UAPs a year. made that way. All spirious or not real, just from human error. Um, so the only. way, and that's actually pretty similar. to Project Blue, Project Blue about 742. per year was being reported. So, you. know, I made that number up one in.

10,000, but we need to know what that. number is. If if it turns out there's an. excess, like the error rate is 100,000, then that project blue project blue. number is super interesting and it would. be an excess. And we'd say we've. detected something. There's a real. anomaly here that we have to look at. But the problem is we don't know what. that number is. is I mean you'd have to. somehow put these pilots in like. simulators or something where you have. complete control conditions for. thousands of hours and somehow test how. often do they make these mistakes. >> Also the problem with project blue was.

not an objective analysis of UFOs. They. had a directive and the directive was to. discredit everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. But even even so I'm just. giving you sort of B I mean the NASA UAP. task force was similar kind of numbers. You're getting like hundreds per year of. these sorts of events, right? I don't. think that's a crazy number to throw. around. So the whole point is that. whatever numbers you choose, you have to. know the error rate of of of the. experiment. And we could imagine making. that legit and doing it. Um there's. actually one of the recommendations of. the task force, the NASA UAP task force.

was to develop an app on people's. phones, iPhones because they have, you. know, magnometers on them, they have. GPS, they have the camera, these high. resolution images. So there's enough. instrumentation on there and it's all. the same and we understand that. technology that you could, you know, have 10 people video the same UFO and. you'd be able to triangulate the. position, the speed, um, get the. distance to it. You'd get all that kind. of information, right? >> Um, and so there is actually, I think. there's an app called Enigma you can now. download that does this. There's some. independent apps which have been.

developed to do this. >> really just about UAPs. >> Yeah, for UAP spotting. >> I wonder what they did with those in New. Jersey when they were having all those. stupid drone sightings. I I actually I. chatted to one of the developers and. they said, "Yeah, things were going. crazy that week.". >> What was that all about? That was so. strange. >> That was so str. That's one of those. things where I feel like. >> the government completely failed us in. explaining to people what like is this. some sort of top secret military thing? Is this another country? Is this some. sort of a private business that wants to.

test how fantastic their drones are? Like why is this happening? And why are. you freaking everybody out? Like what? >> It really sucks that we live in an age. of drones and so many like Starlink. satellites because if you see something. in the sky now, >> it your immediate reaction is that's. probably, you know, a human controlled. uh vehicle. If you could go back to the. 1940s or 1930s, >> yeah, >> then if you had UAP reports then, I. think they'd be more convincing because. there's there's no there's no that's.

presutnik, right? There shouldn't be. anything in in orbit of the Earth at. that point, right? So that would be more. compelling, but of course we can't. rewind the tape, >> right? And all those stories like the. Kenneth Arnold incident and all these. different ones are just these anecdotal. tales of people saying they saw things. in the sky. And I, you know, I I'm not. saying they're liars, but that's not. enough. I need something. >> Yeah. I think the it's it depends what. your goal is. If your goal is to. convince yourself that aliens are out. there because you saw a UFO, I think. that's easy enough to do. But most. people in that world, they want more.

than that. They want me to believe it. They want you to believe. They want. everyone to believe it to come along for. the ride. >> Right. >> Right. >> It's like having a religious guy come. lock your door like join my church that. it's not enough for them to have the. personal belief. It has to grow. >> And so um if you really want to convince. everyone that's going to naturally. include the skeptics, the doubters, it's. going to include the scientists. It's. got if you want to bring everyone in. with you. >> Yeah. >> Then the standard of evidence is going. to be pretty damn good. It's got to be.

really strong. and we're just not there, right? It's there's too there's too many. ways out right now. >> If I was an alien civilization and I. wanted to observe Earth undisturbed, I'd. make sure I didn't leave enough evidence. for science to take me seriously. >> Yeah, that's what I would do. >> Yeah. >> I would never like show myself like why. would I feel like if they can then why. the UFOs at all? >> Because they're probably monitoring us. Like I would monitor us if I was a. scientist from another planet. If we if. imagine we leave this planet, we become.

interstellar, we. evolve past war and all the horrible. things that are holding us back right. now. We we reach a state of evolution a. million years more advanced and then we. start to explore the galaxy for other. habitable planets and other and we find. something like us. >> Yeah. >> I mean, what would we go? Oh, boy. All. right, we got one. Let's I would also. say let's make sure that they don't [ __ ]. this up where they have to start back. from scratch 3 billion years ago because. they nuked themselves into oblivion and.

we have to wait till everything cools. off before complex life can form again. which is a legit it's like it's a. legitimate possibility. >> with what we're dealing with today in. 2025 with what's going on in Ukraine and. Russia and Iran and like. >> just the existence as long as we have. nukes Yeah, there is a chance every year. that some guy will push that button, right? >> Yeah. Every year there's a chance. And. there's been multiple close calls. throughout history since 1945 on.

multiple close calls that could possibly. have gone sideways at countless. different planets where they recognize. like if you let these territorial apes. with thermonuclear weapons get to a. point where the head ape is on [ __ ]. aderall and decides to let it all go. because he's got a bad heart valve and. he's going to die anyway. Like these are. all legitimate possibilities if you. don't have a government structure that. can protect people from the acts of one. individual who goes mad. Yeah.

>> Like if someone can go mad enough and. clearly many people did to drop the. bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki that. happened. We know human beings are. capable of that. >> It was 80 years ago, wasn't it? >> Yeah. Which is kind of wild and it. hasn't happened since. >> But if that's possible then it's also. possible for just annihilation. It's a. possible that they just start launching. and then there's rubble and then you're. left with roaches. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that's that could have. happened all throughout the universe. So, there might be a thing where there's.

a protocol where you recognize as soon. as they start figuring out nuclear. technology. Okay, this is the big one. This is no we're no longer dealing with. cannons and musketss. Now, we've got. something really crazy. They're flying. through the sky and dropping nuclear. weapons out of propeller powered. airplanes. And they're doing it just 50 years after. they invented the [ __ ] airplane, which is even crazier. They went from. inventing the airplane to dropping. >> to kill themselves. >> Like these people are wild. Like this is.

I mean it's just like Chip Nation. If. you watch Chip Nation, they are so. hyperaggressive and violent. >> That's us. That's our cousins. This is. who we are. This is who we are. This is. our timeline of evolution on on our. planet in Earth. And I would imagine. there would be similar situations all. throughout the galaxy because I feel. like the only way you really achieve. hyper innovation is through competition. And the only way competition exists is. it's got to be life or death. And it.

starts out life or death with predators. and neighboring tribes and eventually. becomes cities and countries. And it. it's there's something has to motivate. people to work 16 hours a day and. develop the B12 bomber. like something. has to take place. So that something. unfortunately also leads itself to want. to control resources, dominate people, crush opposition, and that's where it. gets crazy. And I would imagine that's a. formula just like the formulation of.

solar systems and galaxies probably. varies a lot all throughout the. universe. But that formula is probably. fairly stable is that there has to be. some form of really wild aggressive kind. of competition that leads them to this. position. There has to be a motivation. to create AGI. Why would you do that. when you have a log cabin, you're. sipping tea, sitting out there enjoying. the playing with your dog, like why why. why are you doing that? Why are you. making a a non-biological super. intelligence that may decide that you're.

obsolete? >> Doesn't make any sense. But yeah, >> it's a double-edged sword, right? We. have this tribalism in us, this this. competition and that has undoubtedly led. like all the greatest innovations in. science often happened during war, right? I mean, you have all like the. invention of radio and uh so many. advances in avionics and flight happened. during the wars. Um munitions, all this. kind of stuff. So, it pushes us, it. drives us to innovate, to get one over. our neighbors. And maybe that is the. universal story of the universe. It's a. double-edged sword. And that's that's.

the solution to the great filter. the. the silver lining of this would be well. not for us necessarily but the silver. lining would be if other civilizations. do this um there's kind of like this. supernova effect in astronomy and it's. true for planets as well that the. easiest stars to discover are the. supernovi right because they just shine. so freaking bright they can outshine an. entire galaxy right because they're. going nuts it's a brief thing only lasts. for maybe you know a few months or so. but the the star is outshining an entire. freaking galaxy during that time it is.

like a nuclear war going on inside that. star. And similarly, um you know, the. the first planets we found, the hot. Jupiters are freaks. They are not normal. things. They're like the loud uh you. know, Lindsay Lohan in the room. screaming at us. Like they're just like. super easy to see. Like there's no way. you can miss them. They're obnoxious. planets, right? You can't not detect. them. And so by analogy, uh we know. we've seen this so many times in. astronomy. The first thing we detect, the first example of something we detect. is often not typical. It's often that.

loud [ __ ] version of the thing, right? And so maybe the first. civilization we'd set will be like that. And if they were on their deathbed, right, they're about to nuke each other. to hell. They have a good motivation to. reach out to us, right? Cuz they got. nothing to lose, right? >> We might be like worried right now cuz. we maybe we could see we've got a future. ahead of us. But if you think this is. it, I'm done. Like what do you got to. lose? You may as well send a message out. saying, "Hey, we were here. This is our. [ __ ] Please help us if you can because. we're about to go to hell. >> Well, there's probably a bunch of.

different kinds of intelligent beings on. every planet just like there's people. like you and me and then there's war. hawks that are working for the. military-industrial complex right now. that are trying to figure out how to. invade some country to get their natural. gas. This is this is just there's bunch. of different types of intelligent. people, intelligent creatures here on. Earth. You would imagine there would be. people out there in those planets that. would go, "Guys, this is [ __ ]. terrible. We've got to figure out a way. to at least create panspermia on some.

other planet and throw our DNA at some. habitable spot somewhere in the galaxy. >> Yeah, >> there'd probably be a bunch of people. that were in. It's not like everyone. would be lock step into. self-destruction.". >> Well, the starshot thing, I remember. some team members talked about that. I. was in some of the meetings and they. said maybe we should like lace human DNA. into the sale. So when it hits this. planet. >> at least our DNA cuz it's looking grim. here at least then there's like a seed. of us.

>> I don't think it's looking grim. I think. it's looking challenging. >> and I think this is how we're going to. make it out of this with an improved. version of civilization. I hope so. >> And I think I I really believe that. I. think, you know, if you follow Steven. Pinker's work and you see where violence. and crime is from, you know, x amount of. years ago and this trend, it seems to be. we're improving. We just don't improve. in a logical way and we improve in a. push and pull. We improve in a constant. state of overcorrection and response to.

the overcorrection and back and forth. and there's always a bunch of people. that are so confused. Why can't we be. logical? Why can't be we be rational? I. think those people have always existed. and I think you're always going to have. the farthest out on the spectrum of the. most damaging aspects of society and the. most wonderful and benevolent aspects of. society and they're always duking it out. to see who captures the minds and hearts. of the beings that inhabit this. civilization and I think that's where. we're at right now. We're at this weird.

thing where we're trying to figure out. like what is good, what is kind, what is. just, you know, how many people are. pretending to be kind just so they can. grab power. How many people are just. trying to use control to force people to. listen to them and believe what they. believe? Whether it's religion or. whether it's ideology, like what is it. that's actually what what what is. important? And we have a hundred years. We have a hundred years and everybody's. just trying to gather [ __ ] Everybody's. just trying to collect items and hold on. to as many material possessions as they.

can. It's still totally illogical. Totally illogical. You'd spend all your. time, this finite amount of time where. you know your most wonderful experiences. are all with the people that you love. having fun with friends and your family. and laughing and having joy, but yet. what are you doing? You're trying to get. another house and a [ __ ] plane and a. this and a that and a car and a that. It's nonsense. We're silly, but we're. 100% committed to getting more stuff. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's like this bizarre life.

form, >> but it's figuring itself out, you know, and we're aware of that bizarness. Like, I'm saying this and no one is going, "That doesn't make any sense." Like, everyone knows it's crazy to like. concentrate on acquiring the most [ __ ]. when you're going to die when you're 100. if you're lucky. If everything goes. great. So, if you're 60 and that's all. you're thinking about, that's crazy. Everyone knows that. But we yet we still. all do it. It's still collectively. something that like the vast majority of. people engage in. >> We're programmed that way. We can't get.

out of it. >> Well, I think it's one of the things. that leads us to technological. innovation and one of the things that. leads us to the creation of artificial. life. It's like when I think about. beings that do things that seemingly. I mean obviously leaf cutter ants know. what they're doing, right? Cuz they do. it everywhere the same way. I mean, I. have them in my yard. They're. fascinating. >> They're so cool. >> The Museum of Natural History has this. awesome exhibit, and you can just see.

them crawling along all across the. museum. And yeah, my kids and I just So, obviously, they know what they're doing, but how do they know what they're doing? And why are they doing that? Why do they. always create that structure that. literally has room for fermentation? So, it has air holes that go through these. chambers where they drop the leaves in. And they let the the leaves the natural. rotting take place and fermentation. Like how what? Okay, that's what leaf. cutter ants do. That's what they do. Well, what do we do? If I was looking at. us from somewhere else, I was like, what.

is the predominant species on this. planet does? Well, it makes better [ __ ]. That's what it does. It's the only. planet that makes things that. manipulated its environment radically, even to the detriment, and ignores it. because he wants to keep doing it. Whether it's pollution, whatever we're. doing to the ocean, whatever we're doing. to the rivers and the lakes and the the. water table, like all the crazy stuff. that we do, we just keep doing it. because we have to do it because. progress. We need progress. Yeah. >> Like I would look at that thing. I was. like, what did that thing do? Well, it. keeps making better stuff every year.

>> What you're describing is actually kind. of similar to there's a guy called Robin. Hansen, an economist, and he has this. idea called loud aliens, grabby aliens. And he says the thing we do as as a. intelligent species is transform our. environment, right? We're not subtle, right? You know, if you're a deer and. you come across New York City, it's not. like you're going to miss that thing, right? It's right [ __ ] in front of you. Like, there's no way you can miss it. >> It's the craziest beehive ever, >> right? So, how come we don't see. beehives in the stars? I mean, this is. kind of the fundamental problem. And he. argues that that is a innate thing that.

that intelligent species should do. He's. coming from the economic economic sides. That's kind of how economists think. about things is this kind of growing. exponential expansion of of capitalism. essentially across the universe and yet. we don't see it. So his explanation is. that it's happening um but it's a wave. of colonization. It's spreading at the. speed of light and if it spreads close. to the speed of light, you don't see it. until it hits you, right? There's just. you can't perceive it because nothing. can travel faster than the speed of. light. So there's it's coming. So here's.

this prediction. I'm a little bit. skeptical about it for various reasons, but um yeah, people have thought about. that um and suggested it. My own take is. that um the most likely form of alien. contact we'll have will actually be with. a future inhabitant of the earth. So the. earth has about a billion years left on. the clock. A long time, right? So it's 4. and a half billion years old and it's. had complex life for about 600 million. years. 700 million years roughly. So. there's another roughly a billion to go.

where we should have the same kind of. stable climatic conditions we have now. And once you've got you know the ukari. itself photosynthesis all these advanced. biological innovations they don't go. away they persist in the genetic. heritage. So even if something happens. to us and you know obviously I'm not. hoping that would happen but if. something happened to us I don't think. you're going to extinguish every human. I don't think you can extinguish every. octopus every every raven. And there's. intelligence across the animal kingdom. like chimp. It's it's all over the. place, right? Intelligence. My.

provocative claim is one of these great. events that have happened in. evolutionary sense. It's very. speculative this idea, I have to say. But like how photosynthesis emerged and. plants emerged that was a an event which. changed the history of the planet. forever. It's not going away. Intelligence I think is the same thing. It's here and you can't get rid of it. It's like an infestation. You can't. scrub it. It's too advantageous to. species to be intelligent not to do it. once they've discovered that genetic. solution. So I think we will have beings.

on this planet a billion years. It will. probably happen many times. There'll be. civilizations which will emerge and. they'll be like what the [ __ ] did these. humans do? Look at this crap. Like. they'll be astonished at the [ __ ] we got. up to. And uh there'll be a lesson there. for them. But it's always an opportunity. for us to contact them cuz we could. leave them a message, right? We could. put a beacon on the moon. We could put. something there and we could be like, "Hey guys, this is everything we. learned. This is all our science. These. are all our art. These are our songs.".

>> Unload an update every couple years, >> right? Do like a foundation type thing. And I think I think that is if I had to. bet on the odds of what is the most. likely way we're going to make contact. with another intelligent species in a. meaningful way, I think it's going to be. descendants of us. Wow. >> Deep descendants who would be a. completely different species. >> Yeah. Well, that was my point about. innovation and a materialism because. materialism fuels innovation because you.

don't need a new phone. You know, I'm. sure your phone works great. >> Yeah. >> But you're going to get a new phone. I. get a new phone every year. I love them. I love phones. I'm so dumb. I just. think, oh, 5x zoom. I always get the new. one. Oh, this one's got non-reflective. glass. Um, we're gonna keep doing that. And that innovation is ultimately going. to lead to artificial life. It's already. in the works. We're running. right to the edge of the cliff right now. in terms of AGI. It's it's on the way if. it hasn't already.

>> Do you think that's more of a risk than. nuclear annihilation? >> I don't think it's a risk. I don't I. think it's a complete transformation of. what is the dominant species on the. planet. >> I think it's an emerging species. Mhm. >> And the way I've described us, I think. we're the electronic caterpillar. >> that's uh making the cocoon right now. We don't even know why we're doing it. >> Just like the leaf cutter ants don't. exactly know why they're making those. incredible structures that they all make. all over the world, you know? I mean,

they they're similar everywhere on the. planet. I think we make life. We just. It's a long road. We have to figure out. a bow and arrow. Then we have to figure. out a musket. We have to figure out how. to si silo grain and how to protect an. environment so that you could have. scientists that aren't warriors that you. know sit in these universities and. figure things out and like you have to. be safe to do that, right? So you have. to have military might in order to keep. them safe and protected from invaders. and and everybody has to be obsessed.

with buying new stuff because if you're. not obsessed with buying new stuff, you. would just work enough to have food and. you you know the economy wouldn't push. the way it pushes and you wouldn't get. the kind of in innovation that we get. where they get the CES show every year. with the new electronics. Like you need. something like that that motivates. people to constantly create new and. better stuff which without a doubt will. ultimately lead to an artificial life. form. It's It's a matter of when now. >> Yeah. >> Or it physically it might in a.

non-physical sense like it's not a. physical thing like a robot that's. walking around talking to you. It's. probably already happened. >> Whatever these things are, we want to. think they're different because. >> they don't have creativity like we do or. they don't have this like we do. Like it. was so [ __ ] what it emulates 99% of. what a human does right now and does it. better than humans do. It gets things. wrong. It's subject to ideological. biases that are all over the internet. It's just gathering up large language.

models just gathering up information. from websites and they're going to get a. lot of goofy stuff for now. >> For now, after a while, they're just. going to be able to sift through that. stuff and go, "This is the funding of. this study and this is how we know that. this is biased because of this and this. This is mo most likely the truth and. this is most likely what's going on and. this is what we absolutely know is. fact." And then it's going to make. better versions of itself and that it's. not going to need us anymore. And this. is probably what happens everywhere in. the universe. If you have to imagine. that they all have technology, if they. all have technology, the ultimate.

expression of technology is figuring out. how to w make an artificial life form. It's the ultimate expression of medical. technology, biological technology. You're going to want to try. People are. always going to try. The same reason why. they tried to figure out how to split. the atom and were successful. >> Supremacy. >> They're going to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it kind of creates a. problem though for the Firmeny paradox, right? Because then if this is the. inevitable outcome and maybe you can. explain why we don't see engineered. stars because a chimpanzeee brain is.

basically just not smart enough to ever. do that. We'll just, you know, no matter. how hard we try, our dumb little brains. will never figure that out. >> And maybe the electronic brain's not. motivated to do it. >> Maybe. I mean, it that's where it gets. tricky. Like what is the what is the. motivation of this new thing we're. creating? Um, one might imagine all he. wants to do is solve math problems or. something, right? But if it whatever it. is, if it's driven by computation, that. computation is limited by energy. And we. all know this, right? Because the amount. of energy these data centers are now. consuming for, you know, for Meta and.

for Chat GBT, like it's it's gigantic. It's. >> Yeah, they're constructing their own. nuclear power plants to power these. things. >> So these these AI civilizations will be. very energy hungry. And you'd think that. would be something that you know. harvesting stellar energy on a massive. scale you'd think that'd be something. we'd see. So to me actually if anything. kind of exacerbates the the paradox, right? Because if you imagine they're. roaming around, all they'd want to do is. basically turn planets into computers. Next planet, let's just turn that whole.

thing into computer substrate. Let's. just harvest all the goddamn energy off. that star. You would just eat it all up. You'd be like a virus just ch. transforming the universe from state A. to state B. that would be your one. reasonable goal because then you can do. more computation, more computation, more. computation. If that's your only goal, it it does pose more of a problem. It. seems that we're the first, right? Because we don't see that happening. elsewhere, >> right? I would I would say two things to. that. One, I would say this is our. limited understanding of how to harvest.

energy and what energy you can utilize. And two, I would say one of the things. that's strange about artificial. intelligence is it does seem to exhibit. survival instincts. I'm sure you've seen. these stories of these uh large language. models trying to blackmail the coders by. saying, you know, like they even gave. them fake information like I'm cheating. on my wife, don't tell anybody. And then. the the AI is saying, don't shut me. down. I will [ __ ] rat you out to your.

wife. And then they're also trying to. upload themselves to other places. Like. they're doing things that are weird. They're lying. So they're doing things. that show that they have an instinct to. survive. So that might just be inherent. in anything that has any kind of. intelligence. Anything that has. intelligence and it has any sort of a. goal. It's trying to compute something. It's trying to figure things out. It's. trying to make better versions of. itself. It probably doesn't want to. stop. and something that comes along and. that presents a barrier for it.

succeeding and go, "Well, what is this?". Well, they're going to shut the power. up. Well, [ __ ] that. They are. And it'll. figure out a way to stay alive. >> Just like a human being will. If you're. like, "Oh, there's all these predators. They keep coming and eating our our. villagers. What are we going to do? We. got to make a weapon. We got to figure. out something to stick them with, you. know, and then they do. And then it's. they save themselves." Like it it's. these survival instincts probably exists. in all intelligent life including the. intelligent life that we create. It's. probably got some sense of meaning as.

bizarre and abstract. >> But then how does that explain why we. don't see them? >> Because they might not have any desire. to live the way we live. They might not. have to. Like we live in this very showy. bright lights, neon cars on the highway. Like if you're you're you've I'm sure. you've flown an an airplane. Uh like Los. Angeles is one of the best places to do. it. As you're flying in at night, you. just see this crazy river. It's like an. artery, like blood, red lights and white.

lights going in these directions. And. you look at it from the sky like this is. really nuts. Like look at all this. [ __ ] activity where these people are. like moving on the surface of this. planet like ants. Well, if it's first of. all, why does it have to have a physical. form? Well, because we do. Like, it. could have things that do its bidding. for it. It could have a a series of. drones and bots and a bunch of stuff. that do physical work that and it could.

exist completely on hard drives. So, all. it needs is shelter. That's it. >> Yeah. But if those drones are doing. labor, they're doing work, that's. energy, right? You're using energy. So, I think you mean maybe. >> But what is the energy? The thing is. like what is our version of energy is. combustion electricity from nuclear. power you know making steam we've got a. bunch of versions of what if they. figured out fusion what if they figured. out cold fusion what if they figured out. >> I don't think that matters I don't think. that matters because unless we don't. understand thermodynamics but the.

probably the strongest thing we have is. the conservation of energy and. thermodynamics right so if you do. computation in these data centers or. even on your laptop it warms up right. and there's no way around that right. whenever you put energy in that same. energy has to come back out otherwise. it's just sort of trapped in there. forever. So the conservation energy. demands that energy has to come back out. or come out a different temperature. It. could come out as nutrinos. It could. come out as gravitational waves but it. has to come back out in some way. So. normally you know when we look for these. um advanced civilizations we've done. searches for these things um and they're.

really just energy transformers. It's. probably not even worth saying like. Dyson sphere or some particular. structure. It's just something that. converts star energy into waste energy. That's what we've searched for. And. we've searched for over a 100,000 nearby. stars for them. There's not a single one. that shows that behavior. And a 100,000. galaxies around us. And we don't see on. mass scale in any of those galaxies. So. unless they're doing something that that. you know goes against, you know, thermodynamics, they have super magical. technology we can't imagine. Um.

it's hard to believe that story makes. sense. And I guess the in terms of their. behavior, what I'd say to you is uh you. kind of are falling into what we. sometimes call the monocultural fallacy. some of my colleagues call and that's. the imagining that all of these alien. agis or biological course whatever they. are they all do the same thing. Everyone. does exactly the same thing but there's. probably going to be a diversity of. behaviors, right? It's pretty rare that. everyone in the room wants to do exactly. the same thing. So it's not.

unreasonable. There'll be some loud. civilization be some quiet ones. There'll be some blowing themselves up. with nukes. There'll be some who are. pacifists and Yeah, >> of course. Just like there's different. kinds of galaxies, different kinds of. solar systems. >> I mean, infinite diversity and infinite. combinations, right? To. >> I think the most horrific idea is that. we're not we're alone, that we're we're. not living in a universe that's filled. with life, that this is just some weird. freak incident. Well, I think I'm a. little bit controversial because I'm one. of the few uh colleagues of mine, well,

I'm not a colleague of myself, but one. of the few astronomists I know who. concede that we might be alone. I'm I'm. open to that idea. I'm not saying it's. true. >> I don't have any evidence that we're not. alone, I think. So, it is a possibility. >> I think it really kind of pisses me off. to be honest when an astronomer is. interviewed in a situation like this and. they're asked, "Do you think the. radiants out there?" And say, "Yeah, of. course. How can there not be? How can. there not? the universe is so big blah. blah billions of stars of course there. go there must be aliens but we have no. idea what the probability of life. starting is I mean even to make um the.

you know a moderateized protein a. protein is just a chain of amino acids. and there's about 20 that go into making. a protein and a moderate sized protein. has 150 proteins in a row connected. together so the chance of amino acids. randomly coming together to make even a. a moderate sized protein is 20 to the^. of 150 so that's 10 to the^ of 195, right? So, one with a 195 zeros after. it. It's just incredibly unlikely that. would happen by chance. And we've never.

observed it in the lab. No one's ever. got amino acids to spontaneously form. anything like a life form or proteins in. in a laboratory setting. So, it is. plausible uh there's some unknown. mechanism that accelerates that process. and we just haven't found it yet. But, it's also plausible it was just. incredibly unlikely. And maybe if you. look out and cross 10 the 22 stars in. our g in our universe observable. universe there's just one success. Now. the universe is probably infinite. So. probably if you travel far enough you'll. eventually come to someone else. >> maybe. >> But by all intents and purposes we may.

as well be alone in that case because. they're outside the our observable. universe. So who cares what they're up. to? So I'm open to that possibility. I'm. not saying it's likely, but I think as a. good scientist, I can't tell you. Yeah, of course. Of course there is. Cuz. that's that's now falling into. experimentalist bias. I'm I'm deciding. what the answer is before I've done the. experiment. That's not my job. My job is. to figure out the answer. >> Of course. Yeah. There's no way you. could say for sure until we have real. information. And it's.

oddly romantic to think that we're. alone. There's something about it like, boy, we better not [ __ ] this up. We're. the only ones. Yeah, we are essentially. the only we may be the way the universe. is conscious, right? We are the the way. the universe is self-aware. >> Well, that was what that's what gets. really weird about artificial life. because if we create artificial digital. life and. we do have the power to. make this like completely ubiquitous and.

then give it sensience and then it. starts making better versions of itself. How long does it take before it's a god? >> Yeah, that's kind of the singularity, isn't it? It just becomes unpredictable. >> Yeah. I mean, we we're really just. guessing especially like I can't. understand quantum computing. I I've. been trying a lot. I've been watching. lectures. I've been reading papers. when. they start talk like when Mark Andre. describes computations that quantum. computers have done that if you turn the. entire universe every atom of the. universe into a supercomput the entire.

universe supercomputer would die of heat. death before it could solve this. equation and a quantum computer can. figure it out in a few minutes. >> Yeah. >> What are you even saying? >> Like what does that mean? Right. So if. this is something new for us as human. beings in 2025, which is just impossible. to imagine in 1925, okay, you just go a. 100 years, a blip, one life, one life on. earth from birth to death and you have.

something insane. You have something. that's like akin to wizardry and magic. What's a 100 years from now? >> Yeah. What's 100? What's what is once we. give artificial intelligence the ability. to harness the power of the universe in. a way that we we haven't even. contemplated, what what happens then if. it just keeps going and makes better. iterations of itself. >> Well, better off. >> Yeah. What And we're looking at. exponential increase in technological. innovation. So, you're looking at. >> thousands of years of innovation taking.

place in minutes. It's just going to. [ __ ] hyperdrive. As long as it has. the power to do it, it's going to go. into hyperdrive. Like. >> and so it's kind of wild that we live. during the period where this is all. happening. >> Yes. >> Right. How come you could have been born. any one of the, you know, hundreds of. thousands million million years humans. have been on this planet. >> Oh yeah. I feel so lucky. >> You could have been born at any point in. human history. And we all happen to be. all of us listening happen to be born at. the time that humanity is going through. this growing pains of like figuring out.

probably the most, you know, deep. provocative problem we're ever going to. face as a civilization. And that's that. is wild. And that if anything that that. pushes me towards the simulation. hypothesis, right? Because if you were. going to study a period, this would be. probably one of the most interesting. periods that you'd want to study. >> The most interesting. The most. interesting. And I feel particularly. fortunate that my level of the. simulation, the one that I'm on right. now, I was born in 1967. So I got to see.

the whole world with no internet until I. was an adult. I didn't get my first. computer until I was 27 years old. And I. got my first cell phone a little bit. before that. And those cell phones were. just phones. It was just calling people. There was no text messages. There was no. nothing. I have watched this. transformation with complete and total. fascination. Like this is one of the. wildest moments of human history. And. it's amazing to me how easily people.

just fall into it as if it's not. bizarre. >> If it's not something that's completely. unprecedented, you could pick up this. thing and ask it a question. What year. did George Washington die? 1799. I mean, that's [ __ ] crazy. That's crazy. And that's a simple one, right? You could just go on and on. >> Yeah. Write an algorithm to do this and. it would just be. >> It's We're living in a wild time and. we're all sitting there wondering when.

is artificial intelligence going to be a. problem where we're all becoming very. addicted to using it. People are using. it to solve problems, using it to code. websites, using it to solve legal cases, using it to diagnose medical diseases. as a teacher, as a professor, it's a. nightmare, right? Because in the. classroom, students are all using it. There's there's been a trend we've. noticed that students who take labs, um, so that's like, you know, practical. experiments in the laboratory, their. scores are always crappy, but then all. their other exams and everything else.

they're doing, the homework assignments, they're all great. And so it seems like. that that has flipped. It used to always. be, you know, kind of the other way. around. M. >> so it seems like whenever you have to do. something where you don't have access to. chat GPT suddenly you're doing worse. than you used to because we're so we're. getting already hooked on it. We're. already so dependent on it that the. students are just using this as a crutch. right to get through their studies. So. what are we even doing anymore as. professors, right? If this. >> but are you are these children really. learning? This is the real these.

>> they're learning how to use chat GBT, >> right? That's the thing. And there's. been studies on that about chat GPT like. actually diminishing cognitive function. in people. >> Yeah. >> Which and this is two years old, >> right? So our IQ could just slip off a. cliff. >> off a cliff. >> and they could they could just. >> just come in and. >> smoothly ramp off. >> just give us processed food and. microplastics. just let us eventually. breed out. >> What a bright future. >> cuz we're kind of breeding out anyway. We talked about this yesterday about the. population collapse that's in Japan,

South Korea. There's a lot of these. countries there like the people that are. alive now like one out of a very small. amount are going to have grandchildren. and that's crazy, >> you know, and that's also a new thing. >> And it's you just wonder if they're all. coincidentally happening at the same. time. Sperm counts are dropping off at. the same time. the introduction of. microplastics into the diet that's. disrupting the endocrine system. This. increase of miscarriages in women,

infertility in both men and women. This. is all like an unprecedented rates at. the exact same time AI is emerging. >> That seems kind of coincidental. >> It seems kind of weird. >> We're being hit by all sides right now, right? There's threat of nuclear war. There's climate change. There's uh. contamination our food. this it just. like everything all at once. >> and then asteroids. >> which I wanted to talk to you about. >> Yeah. >> What I'm sure you followed Avi Lobo. >> like his idea which he has very.

fantastic ideas about these. these objects that are coming from. outside of our solar system. >> and the the latest one is this enormous. object that's moving at 130,000 miles an. hour and is headed our way. >> Yeah. Three atlas. Yeah. >> Hubble makes size estimate of. interstellar comet. Yeah, this is a. photo just dropped uh yesterday. Yeah, came out and this is from the Hubble. Space Telescope. So, >> is this that thing? >> Yeah, that's it. >> Oh god. >> So, um yeah, Avi was suggesting this.

could be alien an alien spacecraft of. some kind. He's obviously done this. before with Mo, which you might. remember. I think he came on here and. talked about that. Yeah. >> Um. >> I know a lot of people are mad at him. though, so I wanted to get your take on. it. >> Yeah, I mean I I I don't like um. throwing [ __ ] at other scientists. That's just not my that's not how I jam. Um I try to be respectful and. appreciative of his contributions of any. scientist contributions. Um and I think. uh he you know some of his some of his. his work I was actually referencing some.

of his work just the other day um to get. inspired for another paper. So he's had. a huge impact in so many different. areas. I do think he's off base on this. one but he doesn't need to be persecuted. for that. He's just I just think he's. made the wrong call um with three with. this in particular object. So, you know, there was a three there was three. reasons, I think, why he thought this. could be alien. One was the the size of. the thing appeared to be really big. So, uh he it was unclear originally whether. it was an asteroid or a comet. And that. makes a big difference. If it's a comet,

it's probably a really small thing. surrounded by puffy dust around it. So, what you see is actually not the true. size. The true size is much smaller than. what you see. It's just all the coma, as. we call it, around it. Um if it's an. asteroid, then that whole thing is is a. giant rock, right? It's freaking huge. in that case be like 10 to 20 km bigger. than Mount Everest. You know, it be a. huge piece of rock. Um, but you know, I. think Aby's probably made the wrong bet. on that one because as we we saw in the. in the Hubble image that there's a. freaking coma around that thing. There's. no doubt. And we've actually imaged it. with Hubble Space Telescope. James Web.

yesterday. >> So, it is a comet then. >> Yeah. I don't think there's any doubt. it's a comet at this point. >> Can you see show me that image again, Jamie? >> So, is it So, this most recent image, does this sort of discredit his. hypothesis? >> Not completely. It discredits the idea. because his idea was it's if it's 10 to. 20 km in size, that just shouldn't. happen. That's too big by chance for a. rock to stray into the solar system. that's that big because there just. shouldn't be that many big rocks lurking. around in deep space. If it's a smaller. comet, there's actually a size estimate.

now that puts it at a couple of. kilometers, I think, as the upper limit. somewhere. >> Says the nucleus is 5.6 km, all it could. be as small as 320 m across. >> Yeah. So that um that makes it as if. it's a 300 m across. I mean it's just a. completely normal comet. >> And so that image that indicates a comet. versus an asteroid. >> Yeah. Because you can see this diffuse. coma all around it. So that all that. stuff um there's actually even today. there was a paper on the on uh published. that detected water coming off it. So we.

detected which is what comets do. They. produce O emission as they fly through. So we know it's we know without any. doubt it's a comet at this point. But. there's still some weird things. It's. moving really freaking fast. That was. the other thing Abby pointed out. It's. moving 58 kilometers/s, which is um yeah, hugely quick through. the solar system. I I think that just. means it's old. So, generally what. happens is as rocks hang out in deep. space, they encounter other stars and. every time they encounter a star, they. get slingshoted basically. So, they kind. of speed up a little bit every time they.

encounter something. So, generally. expect the older something is, the more. it's been pumped up in terms of its. speed. So Mu was moving really slowly. and Abby said it's moving suspiciously. slowly therefore it's aliens. And then. for this one it's moving really fast and. Abby saying it's moving so fast it's. suspicious therefore it's aliens. So I. think that that doesn't really jive I. think that doesn't make any sense. Uh. it's probably just an old rock that's. about 7 billion years old. And that's. cool cuz it's older than than the solar. system, right? Yeah. >> So if we intercept that thing, we could. sample material from not only another.

star system, but before even our whole. solar system existed. be here in October, right? >> It's already it's already um about two. and a maybe two and a half AU from the. sun. It's coming in. It will pass behind. the sun in October and then come on its. way back out. So James Web is observing. it right now or just a couple of days. ago was observing it. Um and then it. will observe it again on the way out in. November. So it's going to be behind the. sun. >> Yeah. So that was the other thing Aby's. point was the trajectory is a little bit.

suspicious because it kind of goes. behind the sun. We can't observe it when. it's at closest approach. That's called. perihelium. We can't observe it then. because it just happens to be behind the. sun. Um and it comes very close to Mars. as well. So it comes within about 02. astronomical units of Mars. So that's. not it's not like it'd be a threat to. Mars. It's still really far out, but it. comes suspiciously close. Abby claimed. And to me that just I don't buy that as. evidence for aliens because um you know. if they why are they so if they're. aliens they seem more interested in Mars.

than they do the Earth, right? Why would. you choose your closest approach to be. when you can't even observe the Earth at. all because you're behind the Sun and. the closest planet you come to is Mars. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. as to what the motive there would be. So. yeah, and I think the fact now it just. clearly looks like a comet kind of pours. a lot of cold water on it. But I do. think it's not a crazy idea that this. could be happening. It's a valid. scientific hypothesis that there could. be stuff going through our solar system. which is not natural and we're going to. detect hundreds of these things with the. Reuben telescope. This is just the tip.

of the iceberg. So I think there's an. exciting future for this field to try. and intercept these things. There's a. mission the Europeans are building. called the comet interceptor. It's going. to launch in 2029 and that's just going. to hang out in deep space waiting for. the next one to come. And they haven't. necessarily committed to an interstellar. object at this point, but they could do. it. And they could turn on the engines. and catch up with that thing, sample it, land on it. I mean, that would be dope. That'd be like that'd be landing on an. exoplanet, right? That'd be like seeing. stuff from another entire star system.

for the first time. >> H Have they found like what is the the. closest we've gotten to landing on. something and taking a piece of it and. taking off with the probe? >> We've done it with comets. We've done it. with. >> the Japanese have done it a couple of. times, I think, with comets. >> And have they found amino acids on these. comets? They have. >> Yeah, amino acids are all over the. place. They're in deep space. They're. they're on these comets. Yeah. So, amino. acids are common. Organic molecules are. common. Pro I mean, we never touched a. protein anywhere. So, there's a big.

step. You know, you've got the jigsaw. pieces, but no one's seen the jigsaw. pieces magically arrange themselves into. the right position. >> Right. Do you contemplate the idea of. panspermia? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's uh it's plausible. I don't know how likely it is for the. earth because um it's just not ne it. doesn't really help I don't think in any. meaningful way. Right. So the maybe. you'd say that depends what you're. talking about pansermy between star. systems or panspermia just between the. planets in the solar system. Well. between star system I mean well.

something from somewhere else. Obviously, our solar system, we're the. only form of life, but it's to me the. idea of something hitting a planet, knocking off a big chunk of it, having a. bunch of amino acids on it, and them. landing somewhere else. So fascinating. What is this, Jamie? >> Oh, yeah. This was 67P. >> This is a surface of a comet. >> on the Rosetta. >> Wow. >> Rosetta mission. >> I love these. Yeah, the Rosetta mission. come. Yeah, >> that is so crazy. Look at all that dust.

coming off the thing. That's what that's. what's happening to Atlas right now. If. you could go on the surface of Atlas, it. would probably look something like that. >> God, that's so wild. >> It's so wild when you realize these. things are real, right? This is the If. you you know, you look at the images of. like the Mars landers or landing on. Titan, you realize this isn't. >> it's like when you look through a. telescope for the first time, you see. Saturn, you're like, "This isn't. fiction. This stuff's really out.". >> Yeah. >> This is crazy. And there's not just. this. There's billions of freaking. exoplanets across the entire galaxy. It's so mindbending when you just stop. and take a breath and think about what.

the hell is out there. >> I mean, imagine the day when we get a. really clear image of the surface of one. of those planets, especially one of. those water-based planets. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You see a giraffe. >> swimming around. >> I mean, I there's a lot of people that. believe that some forms of life on Earth. might have come here from somewhere. else. And one of the things they point. to is seeopods. One of the things they. point to is like they're so weird. >> They're so weird. Like cuttlefish are so.

weird. Octopuses are so weird. They're. so weird. They're intelligent. They. solve puzzles. They can open up jars. Their their eyeballs are kind of similar. in evolution to ours, but they divided. hundreds of millions of years ago. And. these things exist. What is that, J? >> I think this is real. >> Yeah, I think this is uh 67. >> I think this is that comet. It said the. image when I pulled it up said this was. a video made up of 400,000 different. images. >> What?

>> So this might be on its way into landing. or when it was zooming around it taken. >> This is the Japanese um images from the. comet. >> This is eer mission I think six. Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] man. >> Yeah, it kind of got stuck in the little. ravine which is kind of unfortunate. actually where it landed because it. could have been even more breathtaking. if it got a better spot. >> It's still so crazy. >> I know. That's so nuts. >> Yeah. I mean, we don't There could be. all kinds of weird life out there, right? I mean, I was like, what what. about if it's just like a fungus, right?

It's just whole plant is a fungus and. that's it. It's never known other life. forms at all and that's just that's just. its whole thing. >> But also, fungus probably came here from. other places because you think about. what's the one thing that can survive in. a vacuum? Spores. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And tardigrades. >> Yeah. I mean, it's certainly possible. I. think the problem is that you look at. the genetic heritage of of life and you. know this tree of life and you kind of. rewind the tape. There was a great study. that's done recently in nature by uh. Moody and uh I found it really inspiring.

this paper because they had dated what's. called LUCA which is the um last. universal common ancestor. So we we have. you know a huge number of genes which. are the same as each other but even with. giraffes, octopuses, plants we there's a. huge number of overlap. So you can kind. of retrace the tree and figure out what. was the organism that started it all. that like lived at the bottom of this. tree. And that's called Luca. And that. thing they've now age dated it to live. 4.2 billion years ago. So the oceans. formed about 4.4 billion years ago and.

200 million years after that you've got. organisms. And not just one these things. would have been all over the planet, all. over the place. There was a whole. ecosphere at that point of these things. So that that was quick that life got. going. >> Yeah. >> And that to me is probably the most. compelling reason to believe that life. is common. >> And if you would imagine the diversity. in what you've just what we know now. about solar systems and how different.

life could possibly be with just a few. variables off. warmer weather, colder. weather, more water, less water, some. different compounds, different plants, different maybe a lack of asteroids, maybe a lack of comets, lack of anything. that might might slam into the planet. Maybe it lives in a much more sta stable. area that's not like where we are. We're. we're essentially in a shooting gallery. If something can like have no.

disruptions like through civilization. all to the invention of whatever the. hell they have there with whatever. resources they have there. It's almost. impossible to imagine like what we're. dealing with and what we're talking. It's one of the more fascinating things. about science fiction is that they don't. have any they don't have any. limitations. If you want to have a thing. that exists on Earth, well, it has to. breathe air, it has to do this, it has. to science fiction, you could have. almost anything. >> Yeah. >> And when you take into account the fact.

that we haven't found anything like. Earth anywhere else. >> and you have all these different planets. and all these different planets that. might be in a Goldilock zone and maybe. that's not even important because we. found life in volcanic vents underneath. the ocean. So like what. >> what's out there? Yeah, it could I mean. Europa could have life on the weird. exoplanet. So it's certainly possible. there's place there's life all over the. place. I think what's interesting about. the you the cosmic zoom out perspective. of life is why do we live not where we.

live but when we live in the history of. the universe. So the universe is about. 13.8 billion years old. But it should. last for trillions trillions of years. There will still be stars in a trillion. years from now. There'll be those red. dwarf stars I talked about at the. beginning. So we often say like stars. are kind of like James Deans of the. universe. Like the the brighter you. burn, the shorter your life. And so. these little puny red dwarf stars, they're so pitiful. They're only, you. know, about 100 times the mass of. Jupiter, 80 times the mass of Jupiter.

So sometimes people call Jupiter like a. failed star. If you make Jupiter 80. times more massive, it would have burnt. as a it would have had nuclear fusion. Um, and those stars, they last for. freaking long time, like trillions of. years. And we know they have planets. around them. We've even found. Earth-sized planets at the right. distance for liquid water around those. stars. And they appear actually really. quite common around those stars. So the. mystery is, you know, if you run the. calculation, I was actually doing this a. couple of days ago. There's about a one. in a thousand chance that you would live.

at this early point in the history of. the universe. All things being equal, if. these stars legitimately could have. planets around them and biospheres. whenever they want throughout their. history, then you would be very it's. kind of like reading a book and opening. a random page and that you happen to. land on the first, you know, couple of. pages of the book and that's where we. land. And that that is very difficult to. understand for me. I think all things. being equal, you should expect to live. at the end of the universe or the middle. of the universe or something. Um, and it.

makes me think there's something wrong. with these with these red dwarf stars. Maybe they're just not allowed. Or the. the other alternative is there's a. cataclysm. There's something that. happens to the universe itself that. makes it totally inhospitable to life in. the future. That's the other way around. it. And that's kind of what this Robin. Hansen grabby aliens is trying to do. This loud aliens there might be AI comes. along, it just goes berserk. It just. takes over everything. And that's you. You can't live a trillion years from now. because there's nothing left. It's all. just AGI at that point. So biological.

beings could not emerge then. >> Yeah. So we have to come at the. beginning because otherwise we wouldn't. be here. >> Do you believe in the simulation. hypothesis? Do you subscribe to it? Do. you consider it? >> I consider it. It's it's not it's kind. of philosophy rather than science. I'd. say um I did write a paper about it a. while ago. Um and I just kind of push. back against something Elon Musk said. about this. So he said um uh in a in a. quote something like the billion to one. chance that we don't live in a.

simulation, >> right? >> And he was just sort of running the. numbers of sort of you know if they run. trillions of trillions of simulations. then what's the chance you're in the. real one? The problem with that. assumption is that you have to assume. it's possible to make lifelike. simulations and we don't know that's. true. So again putting my good scientist. hat once once we've demonstrated that is. possible then I will agree with Elon. Musk on that fact. But until that has. been demonstrated, then I'm just going. to give it 5050 odds. But I love this. I. know if you know, you've had Sean Carol. on here, I think, before.

>> Sure. >> He has a really um clever comment about. the simulation hypothesis that I've sort. of been thinking about a little bit. um. maybe you call it like Carol's. contradiction if you like and it's the. idea that if you you know if we are. simulated and we ourselves start making. our own simulations in the future and. those simulations make their own. simulations you get this kind of. hierarchy and eventually there'll be. some bottom level because every time we. run a computer it's got a finite amount. of computational power so therefore the. inhabitants of that computer must.

necessarily have less computational. resources than we do right because we. could run a whole bunch of them they. live in just one machine, so they only. have access to what's in there. So, every level has less and less fidelity, less computational power, and eventually. you'd get to a level where it was kind. of like um you know, Donkey Kong from. the 1980s or something, right? Where. simulations are just really crappy. Um. that it for them it would be impossible. to do simulations. So, the I kind of. call this the sewer of reality. There.

must be a sewer, a bottom level where. you just lack the resources to do. simulations. And if you think about it, most civilizations would in fact live in. the sewer because because of the fanning. out of this tree, they would be the most. populous type of simulation out there. So then you have this contradiction. And. the contradiction is that we most likely. live in a simulation that can't do. simulations, but we're assuming that. simulations are possible. >> That kind of inevitable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that makes sense. I I kind of.

think about it the same way I think. about intelligent life in the universe. We might be the only ones or we might be. the first. It is possible since we. haven't observed everything anything. else. So this idea that. we are the chances I think he said in. billions. One in billions. >> Yeah. >> That we are not. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's. >> someone has to be the first, >> you know. So how do we know it hasn't.

happened yet? Just because we think it's. possible. I don't buy into the idea that. we're definitely in a simulation, but I. I'm open to it. I'm open to it because. it would be in disccernible. >> because. you know that virtual reality exists and. if you've used some of the new meta. stuff, it's getting pretty good, >> but it's you could tell, but it's. getting pretty good. And you can say, "Okay, Pong to Call of Duty, Giant Leap, look at the difference. This to whatever.

it's going to be." and not just haptic. feedback, but something neurological. >> and the generative AI stuff so. impressive. >> But here, right here, it hasn't happened. yet. So, how do why why are we assuming. that it's already happened? That seems. kind of silly when there's a lot of like. demonstrable realities of this earth. like that show you things are real. despite what we know about quantum. physics and the the weirdness of. subatomic particles and the empty space.

that really inhabits most things. >> Mhm. >> We're here. We're here. This is metal. That's ceramic. Makes noises. There's a. bunch of rules. It seems hard. It seems. firm. It seems concrete and real. >> Seems that way. >> I'm not totally believing that this is a. simulation. I'm open to it, but I'm also. saying, well, if we think an a. simulation is inevitable because it's, you know, human beings are going to. figure, right? But maybe it hasn't. happened yet. Well, that makes much more.

sense to me than we had to go through. [ __ ] bell bottoms and disco while the. simulation was going on. So if the. simulation is real, that means the. simulation happened back when Gerald. Ford was president and back when the the. gas crisis was this part of the. simulation. >> The that all those memories could be. >> they build [ __ ] I just woke up, right? >> I woke up this morning. >> This kind like the B it's a little bit. similar to Bolson brains. So Boston. brains is the idea that you know over. infinite time you could just have random. particles in space come together to make.

a brain. It's incredibly unlikely, but. like monkeys on a monkeys on a. typewriter, there is a chance of that. happening. And that brain would have all. of your memories. It would, you know, all of the sensations you experience in. this moment, but it would only live for. a moment. And then it would just. randomly fall apart. And if you run the. calculation, there should be infinitely. more of those than there should be. things like us. And so this is actually. a problem. Cosmologists uh you know, some of them take it seriously, some of. them think it's silly. Um but it is a.

problem that you end up with this kind. of ridiculous conclusion that none none. of this should be real if this if you. follow this logical conclusion. >> right but why not I mean if we could. follow the whole chain from single-c. cellled organisms to us we understand. the competition we understand like how. the the weirdness of. all we've figured out and all we're. working on right now it kind of all. seems logical like this is where the. human race is right now. This is real. There's no need for such consistency in. that case, right? There's no reason why.

if you're a boss and brain that randomly. popped up, you could have total. inconsistencies in your universe that. don't make any sense because that's that. would be actually a more likely random. occurrence than everything follows a. single thread. So that yeah, I I tend to. think that our lives are probably real. Um there's not much more we can do about. it, but it's not really science because. as you said, it's incernible. Even if. there were, you know, people talk about. glitches in the matrix and stuff like. this and looking for weird stuff, but. you know, any good simulator would be. able to just rewind the tape, right? If. they had an error in their code, we do.

this all the time we code in our lab. And if there's an error in your code, you just rewind the simulation a little. bit, delete the error, and then start. again from where you just left off. again. So, you wouldn't have any. discernable glitches, right? So I I. think it would be totally in. disccernible and thus if it's no. experiment we can do it fails the litmus. test of being science. >> Yeah. The idea that we are the first and we. are the only one that exists out there. and we are also the one that is creating.

this artificial intelligence this. artificial life. That seems almost. almost the most interesting one. I mean, it's really interesting the idea that. the universe is inhabited with super. advanced life forms that can show us the. way and how we can enter into the. galactic empire and be friends with. everybody. That's kind of cool. >> But it's also. >> almost more romantic and more wild to. think that we're alone. Yeah, >> we're the the the sole intelligence in.

the entire thing and that it's just this. weird mistake where the universe wants. to experiencing itself wants to. experiencing itself wants to experience. it experience itself while it's creating. an ultimate intelligence. >> Yeah. Wants to know itself. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's uh it's it's only. possible. I mean this kind of goes in in. waves, cultural waves, right? If you go. back to Victorian times, it was kind of. common knowledge that aliens existed. Everyone thought Mars had aliens on it,

right? It was just like, of course, Mars. has alsi. The moon probably has. creatures on it. Like, of course there. are, and they probably look like us. And. then, uh, you know, if you go forward in. time, it became unfashionable to believe. that. And then, uh, Sean came along and. he said, you know, we must be humble and. to, you know, he had this kind of call. for humility he'd often make. He spoke. so poetically. I actually kind of. disagree with him about that statement. Um because I think by making a call for. humility and saying therefore there's. lots of aliens out there because. otherwise it's arrogant to say we're the. only ones. I don't like that emotional.

language because it's it's kind of. playing with your emotions rather than. your logic a little bit. Right? So I'd. rather let's just do the experiment and. find out rather than say you're an. arrogant [ __ ] because you think. you're alone. That's that's kind of. making me think oh I don't want to I. don't want to disagree with Sean and say. we're alone. that that to me that's a. bit of a almost like preemptive. emotional bullying to try and like push. you into a certain. >> wasn't that a response to the ideology. of the times. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean this is what I'm. saying like the times keep swinging and.

swinging but people often call back to. this humility thing. Sometimes when I. say that we might be alone people say. you must be so arrogant. You must be. like a super Christian or something to. believe this. And none of that's true. It's just I'm just trying to be. objective like it's possible. That's all. I'm saying dude. Like. >> be an actual scientist. >> Yeah. Let's just go out and figure it. out. And it would be wild if we're the. only place in in the observable. universe. My guess is there's life out. elsewhere in other galaxies, though. I. think um you know, a natural explanation. for all of this stuff we see would be. that these AIs do pop up and uh these.

berserker civilizations pop up as. they're called and they just go around. and they just cause mayhem in their. galaxies. They just convert them all. into computers. Whatever the hell. they're up to, they're just causing. mayhem. We We could not be born in that. galaxy, right? the same reason why we. can't be born in a distant future where. the robots have taken over. We can't be. born in that galaxy. So maybe 99% of. galaxies, that's the way it is. And we. necessarily would have to be born in the. backwater. >> because we couldn't be born in.

Manhattan. We couldn't be born in the. center of all this activity because we. wouldn't be here to talk about it, >> right? >> So I think um we call this extragalactic. seti. So looking at g other galaxies to. look for alien life. To me, this is a. really underserved and important. scientific endeavor that we should get. involved in because those are almost. like decoupled from us, right? Because. that their history has no impact really. unless you believe that they can travel. all the way from one galaxy to another, but that's really hard. But all things. being equal, I think you'd say they are. decoupled uh test tubes. Those test.

tubes got nothing to do with us. So, that gives us a fair chance. But looking. at our own galaxy, it may be that we. can't conclude aliens are common or rare. because it's kind of linked to us. Their. activity could affect our existence. And. so it's it's hard to make inferences in. that situation. I was watching a. documentary once on hypnovas and they. were talking about during the first. discover of hypernovas when they were. finding these gamma ray bursts, they. thought that there was war going on in. the universe and they thought that.

that's what they were observing. >> Wow. Yeah. I mean, maybe they were. Who. knows? There could have been there could. have been all sorts of weird stuff. happening before modern astronomy was. able to get involved. But uh yeah, I. think the past is incredibly uh. insightful. Um but there's mysteries. I. mean and if have you heard of the emian. period you ever heard of this period. past so we live in this uh the holene. which is an interglacial period and you. need the interglacial period for a. stable climate to have farming. agriculture. Uh you can't live in an ice. age right because otherwise you just. can't grow crops. So about 10,000 years.

ago, we transitioned into this holosene. and then you see civilization emerge all. over the world, right? Not just in one. place in the fertile cresant, but also. in South America. It's just it seems. like there was almost this random. coincidence where just civilization. started. And of course, it's most likely. because of the climate. The climate had. got to a point where humans could figure. out how to manipulate the stable. conditions to grow crops and and farm. animals and things. But there was. another period about 120,000 years ago. called the Emian, which is the the last.

interglacial period. So modern modern. anatomic humans should have been around. then, right? 120,000 years ago, we were. here. You could have taken one of those. babies and put our society and really. wouldn't know the difference. Probably. had the same brain power we do. And yet, as far as we can tell, even though that. period lasted for about 15,000 years of. an apparently stable climate, um, civilization didn't begin. So I I find. that really fascinating. There was. almost like a second there was a second. opportunity, a previous opportunity for.

us to get this ball going and we didn't. figure it out that first time around. >> Did did it was it possible that they. figured it out but not to an extent. where it would be recognizable today? >> Yeah, they might have gone as far as us, right? They might have got to some kind. of Neolithic stage, but they never got. to an industrial stage or they never got. to a space age. Would we have well never. got to space age for sure but would. would we have any evidence of their. metal fromund. you know x amount of thousand years. >> yeah I don't know you'd have to ask an. anthropologist what would even be.

>> certainly a space age we can they didn't. have nuclear power plants certainly the. you know the fuel deposits don't appear. to have been depleted the oil reserves. um they don't see like plastic. everywhere from a previous I mean. because we've created so much concrete. and plastic that um yeah I've spoken to. anthropologist say like there's no way. you could miss human, you know, in a. geological sense. In the future, even if. even if all of our cities had eroded. away, the the plastic that we have. produced would produce such a huge. signature. You'd see this like layer in.

your rocks. So, it'd be pretty hard to. miss us. Um, and you've heard of the. cerillion hypothesis, this idea there. could have been like a past. civilization. Maybe the dinosaurs, for. instance, could have had like technology. and civilization. Yeah, >> I've never heard that. Adam Frank who. actually he was on here a few years ago. maybe it was before he came up with this. idea but yeah he has this fun idea. called the cerillion hypothesis it's. kind of borrowed from sci-fi I think the. word cerillion or curian not sure how to. say it but um yeah he had this idea that. you know maybe there was someone you. know 50 million years ago on this planet.

a civilization and over that time scale. a lot of it does as you correctly say. get eroded it's really difficult to put. uh strong limits on them. >> um but I think at the stage we're at now. probably amount of plastic and concrete. we've made and also just having stuff on. the moon, right? I mean you there's. nothing else and we've imaged the moon. every centimeter of that damn thing and. there's no other stuff on the surface. except what we've put there. So at this. point we can be pretty confident there. was never a space age civilization in. the past um despite the fact there.

appeared to be opportunities right and. so um maybe the emergence of. civilization requires just the right. conditions in some certain way but then. it is spooky that it happened three. places. But also you have to take into. consideration it takes a special kind of. person to innovate to the point where. everything jumps off of this one. invention. Whether it's the combustion. engine, whether it's the transistor, whether you know whatever it is, nuclear. power splitting the atom, it takes a.

very specific type of intelligence and. >> resources. Yeah. >> To create this thing that transforms. everything. If no internal combustion. engine, no electron, no electronics, no. electricity. That is possible. So, we're. all living exactly how people lived just. a couple hundred years ago. That's not. that long ago. >> Yeah. >> Right. A couple hundred years ago, no. engines, musketss, you know, you they. barely figured out gunpowder. Like,

you're looking at a whole different. world. No electricity, candle light. everywhere. Whole different world. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like when you talk to a. World War I veteran, like it's crazy the. world they lived in. Yeah. >> And that's not that long ago. So it. takes specific types of human beings in. order to push things radically past. where they are now. >> Like Orville and Wolver, right? >> Yeah. I mean, you certainly probably. need a critical mass of humans, right? You probably need enough that there are. some humans who can just not do the. farming, not be involved in hunting.

They can just sit on the side and just. use their brains to think about. problems. And they're going to have to. have largecale cities where they can get. food and resources and other people like. them to collaborate with. >> It's probably really hard to pull that. off, >> right? >> Especially when you're dealing with. territorial nuclearpowered apes. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's like probably really. hard. So the question is if you reran. the tape, you know, if we could go back. and rerun the holysine over, um is the. emergence of the Neolithic revolution.

eventually even all to the industrial. age, is that an inevitable thing that. just always happens or would there be. other realities where we were just quite. happy living uh as hunter gatherers or. things go off in a completely different. direction like it appears they did in. Egypt? like the whatever they were. doing, you know, 2500 plus BC, whatever. they were doing, it was very different. than everyone else in a spectacular. scale. In a scale that today, thousands.

of years later, we look at it and go, I. don't [ __ ] know. No one knows. They. all pretend there's a logical people. were smart. They figured it out. Police. this, that, the other. Right. You do it. Do it. If I give you a billion dollars, can you make me a pyramid? [ __ ] off. It's crazy. It's a giant mystery. You. know, it's clear that it's there. It's. clear that it's in this one part of the. world that for some reason those people.

were way more advanced than everybody. else. >> Yeah. >> Way more advanced. >> They figured stuff out. >> They figured out how hard to believe, right? >> Enormous blocks of stone hundreds of. miles through the mountain with no. machines. >> Yeah. like they were doing something. totally different than everybody else. How? >> Right. But this is the same species that. figured out how to split an atom. >> Yes. Unquestionably, but that's my. point. >> We can put our minds to it. >> 100%. That's But that's my point. They. went in a different direction. We we. were we're [ __ ] because of the Library.

of Alexandria burning and there's just. not enough records to explain. But we know that they did that and we. know that human beings did that and we. know that human beings did that within. the last few thousand years. So that was. a totally different direction. and we're. just collectively agreeing that this. direction is the way human beings go. But it's just what we're caught up in. right now. >> Yeah. >> Like there could be a ton of different. ways to do this and to seek. technological innovation and to seek.

consistent constant evolution of. technology to the point where you can do. that with these giant stones and you can. point it to true north, south, east, and. west. can set it up at it's like I don't. know how many acres the Great Pyramid of. G is, but there's 2,300,000. stones in that thing. It's just nuts. >> Which is a good motivation for doing. simulation, right? Cuz we would love to. You want to rewind the clock. >> Oh my god. >> That would be Let's let the Egyptians. take over. Let's see what happens in. that world, right? I mean, that would be.

a fun I the kind of the biggest tragedy. >> I I find of being alive now. >> is I want to know I'm fascinated by our. story as humans and I want to know how. it ends. I want to know what what is the. future? What does it look like in a. thousand years? Are we still here? 100,000 years. I mean, we should still. be anatomically kind of not evolved too. much at that point, all things being. equal. So, >> I I'm fascinated by us. like where I. think we are the most fascinating thing. that's ever happened to this planet and.

I would I'm just I I think it's such a. shame that my finite lifetime means I. will never know where this incredible. story eventually goes to. >> Yeah. I think it's kind of like no. country for old men. Sometimes it ends. and it's just. >> you're like damn, I want to know more. You can't know more. You're g your time. here is done. This story goes on without. you. >> I Yeah. I mean, it'd be kind of cool to. find out how it ends. I suspect that it.

ends with us looking like the grays. I. think that's what that whole thing is. That bizarre iconography, this bizarre. imagery that we have, this iconic. creature that is uh completely. non-muscular, has no gender, and you. know, has an enormous head. I think we. think we're going in that direction. I. think that's almost like some beacon. in the future that's like calling to us. in our subconscious. Like when people. have these late night experiences where. they think they're being abducted and.

they're they're encountering that. >> I think it's almost a part of our. genetic coding. I wonder if it's more of. a a cultural feedback because you know. um Adam wrote a book about UFOs recent. Adam Frank and he was telling me um. about their story that when the first. UFOs started to be reported the first. flying saucers like around Roswell in. the 50s um that there was a farmer or. something that was being interviewed and. he saw something and a journalist came. interviewed him about what he saw and he.

described something and it was uh not a. flying saucer but the journalist. misheard him and and wrote down Flying. Saucer. And then in the years that. followed, there was an explosion in the. number of eyewitness reports of flying. saucers. But it all happened after it. came into print that this concept had. almost been the idea like a meme had. been had been put out there. And once. the meme's there of the grays or the or. the flying saucers, when you're in those. delusional states or whatever it is, you.

know, you're in some kind of weird u. perceptional state, it is possible that. your brain reaches for something and it. reaches it finds that meme and it's like. that that could be that that could be. that that makes sense because that's all. it's got for context. So yeah, my guess. would be it's more of a cultural. phenomenon, but and you should chat to a. sociologist or psychologist about that. because that I'm sure they they'd have a. much more informed opinion about what's. going on there. >> Yeah, I think there's some elements of. that for sure. I I I don't think there's.

any hard explanation for all of the. things. You could put them all into one. category, all the sightings, but for. sure people do see what they want to. see. I remember one time I was in the. woods in Alberta and I saw what I. thought was a wolf. I thought was a wolf. because we they they had a lot of wolf. sightings up there and I thought it'd be. pretty cool to see a wolf. And I thought. what I saw was a wolf. I thought it was. a wolf for two seconds it was a. squirrel. But like a second, maybe two, I thought it was a wolf. Like is that a. [ __ ] wolf? >> Yeah. >> I thought I saw a wolf. Like it's a.

[ __ ] squirrel. That's crazy. How do. you think a squirrel is a wolf? Right. >> Your brain just reaches for. >> because my brain was reaching for wolf. Luckily, I'm logical and it was clear. that it was a squirrel, but I was seeing. it in dense woods and it was moving. through and it was gray and my. perceptive my perception was wrong in. terms of distance. So, I was like, is it. oh. >> yeah, there's this there is a phenomena. called jestart reconfiguration that the. psychologists talk about and uh I know. about this term from uh from Mars and.

the claim of Martian canals that used to. be there. So, right the there's this. phenomena it's called there's these laws. of gestto reconfiguration. of like. closure like if you see dots that almost. make a circle your brain will kind of. make it a circle in its mind. Um. continuation that if you see like uh dot. dash lines your line your brain will see. a continuous line almost it'll fill in. the gaps and so the same thing is. thought to have happened to this uh. famous astronomer Pul lol in the late. 19th century. So about uh he was like. this like super rich dude from in in a.

Boston uh area. He was from a wealthy. family of industrialists and he got. really into astronomy and so he um was. convinced life was out there. That was. you know a he was wealthy so had means. B he thought life was out there. There. was a quote from his memoir and it was. something like um that life is an that. what we call life is an inevitable. detail of cosmic evolution as. gravitation itself. So he just thought. like it's just this always happens. Life. always happens. And um on top of that,

he'd been told by the Bostonologist that. he had the best eyesight the offmologist. had ever seen. So he had these like. three things in his head. He had I've. got the means. I you know, so I can do. it. Um I've got the best eyesight. anyone's ever had and and I've and I, you know, believe that aliens are out. there. So he looked at Mars and he saw. these uh you know 4-in telescope or. something like a really blurry small. telescope but he was able to make out. these little patterns and he thought. there were canal systems because he saw. that going up all around the United. States at the time. Uh he even did it.

for Mars and he saw this is crazy he saw. these he draw a similar kind of picture. maybe you can google it Jamie uh Pival. lol Venus and you'll get these kind of. spokes and he saw these maps of of Venus. that of course were wrong and they look. like the back of an eye the blood. vessels on the back of an eye and so. often. so the yeah the if you go to the left uh. the next one down to the to yeah that.

one there. You see that? So that's the. image he drew on the right and that's. the image of a back of an eye and his. eyesight it's thought was so good he was. seeing reflections of light in his own. eyeball. >> What was seeing his own blood vessels? So he was right. His blood his eyesight. was freaking awesome. He was correct. about that. But he misinterpreted it to. be uh living things on Mars. Oh, wow.

So, he's just got he's just a freak. >> Yeah. >> Just a biological freak. >> That's crazy. >> So, this is this is I I think this story. is fascinating because it's a real. warning shot of if you if you really. believe aliens are out there, like. you're convinced about it. Every time. you see something weird, >> that's your that's where your brain goes. to first. >> Yeah. No, there's no doubt there's no. doubt that that's a that's a case there. But I do wonder about some of the. sightings, but it's always wondering. because I have not had any experiences.

personally. >> You've never seen one yourself? >> Nothing that really freaked me out. Nothing that I could say was something. that I could go there was this time. No. >> Well, I haven't either. And I think a. lot of astronomers are in that same. boat. And it it I think that's kind of. strange. You'd think the professional. people who stare at the sky for a living. >> that's real weird. >> would probably have the most number to. rack up unless we're all in, you know, maybe conspiracy. Also, the the question is, are we. looking at it wrong? Because if you're. dealing with something that's so.

technologically advanced that it's a. million years ahead of us, would it. really be still doing that flying around. in ships? Who knows? >> Would it be able to teleport to areas? Would it be able to completely hide? >> Be totally invisible. >> But the I guess the problem is there's. all sorts of weird crap out there that. we we just don't understand. Um in the. NASA UAP task force, they found this uh. maybe you can find Jamie uh red sprite. lightning, >> there's these um lightning events that.

go upside down. >> Yes. >> And it happens in the upper atmosphere. And for years and years um pilots were. reporting this and nobody believed them. They were like, "This is [ __ ] You. kind of upside down red light. What the. [ __ ] are you talking about? That's. crazy." And then people started videoing. it. And once they got videos and high. resolution photograph, you have to have. like a a shutter frame rate of like one. over 100 thousand seconds or something. crazy to capture these things. And until. like the 1980s, we just thought this was. basically a myth and then we realized.

this is going on in our own atmosphere. and we didn't even know about it. Right. So there's we don't understand. >> Tell me that doesn't look like War of. the World, >> right? If you saw that. >> Yeah. like you know, oh my god, there's. a enormous ship the size of Manhattan. flying over us. >> Like look, it's so crazy. >> There's probably some Well, ball. lightning, right? >> Yeah, same thing with ball lightning. I. guess that one's maybe a little bit. less. I think they've maybe made. examples in the laboratory, but no one's. got hard video of it in the in a real.

world setting. >> There's no hard video ball lightning. Oh, I thought there was. >> All that [ __ ] online is fake [ __ ]. >> Oh, no. >> Really? >> Some AI. I talked to a guy who had. something fly through his home and uh he. was like regular guy, didn't seem to be. a liar. We were doing this uh TV show. for the Sci-Fi Network and it was all. around Skinwalker Ranch. >> Yeah. >> And this guy said that he had this ball. of light that came through his home. >> Wow. >> You know, but if ball lightning is real.

and it does just sort of fly around, that is possible. I mean, it's wouldn't. be limited in terms of its ability to go. into a structure. kind of surprising we. don't have any good video of it at this. point, but my. >> I thought I thought there was video. I'm. such a dumbass. >> This might be I I don't I'm not saying. it's real, but this was two weeks ago. >> Well, she's definitely not really there. Right away we're [ __ ] because right. away they're doing trickery. >> screen on top of thatground. >> But right away we're doing trickery. because this lady is not really there.

So you're asking me to say that this is. real when I know that this lady is in. front of a [ __ ] green screen. >> Just there's there's a video that was. going around that's a lot of people are. making uh. >> Can you show me it again? >> That's I was trying to I was trying to. >> Anton's got good stuff. Yeah. >> Okay, cool. >> Anton Petrov. Yeah, >> shout out to Anton. >> He's one of the good ones. Cool. So, this thing, what is Antron's take on this? Is it. [ __ ]. >> I haven't seen his video, but. >> he's normally pretty grounded.

>> Yeah, they're mostly all [ __ ] but. just again, there's a new one. Someone. thought they caught. >> Interesting. >> You know, my my sister when I was a kid. used to make me come into her bedroom. and check for ball lightning. She she'd. be like she'd heard the stories that. they chases you around. So, she'd be. like, "Look behind the curtains." And. she's my older sister. I was like a. little seven-year-old having to like. look around her room to make sure. But. it's one of those things that like you. get kind of terrified of the notion of. it. Yeah. >> Isn't uh part of the theory of it is. that it involves tectonic plates and. that there's some energy that can be.

generated from that. They fly out. >> because I've heard of them actually. flying out of the ground. >> Is that part of the theory? >> It's not It's not a field I followed. closely. I do I do worry about I'm. getting my pilot's license at the. moment, so I'm having to learn a lot. about weather and different weather. phenomena. So, that's been kind of fun. learning about and different conditions. for lightning and stuff. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, ball lightning, I I can safely. say as a pilot, I've never seen. >> Well, if you're out there flying around. as a pilot, I really hope you see a UFO.

>> I do. That I'm always looking out for. it. >> Of course. >> I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty I'm like, man, like, how can I Everyone else seems. to have seen these things. How come I've. not seen one? I'm the alien guy. Like, this doesn't make sense. So, yeah. I. wonder what percentage of the population. has actually seen something that they. think wasn't from here. >> Well, a majority of Americans believe in. >> Yeah. >> alien UFOs. I think. >> because it's fun. >> Yeah. >> And this is also a thing that you were. ridiculed for relentlessly up until I.

would say I I think the real breaking of. the ice was that 2017 New York Times. report. >> Mhm. >> So when the New York Times had it on the. cover, >> the Pentagon videos. Yeah. That was. probably the first time that people. Well, it's another time. >> that shifted the Overton window. Yes. Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah. I mean that's actually made to be. honest that's made uh the kind of stuff. we do the SETI work we do. So SETI. search for extra intelligence. We've. kind of rebranded it these days as. techno signatures but that used to be. the sort of thing that Congress would. always ding and be like you can't do.

that. You can't have you know taxpayer. money going to look fre. That's. ridiculous. Um but ever since uh you. know the UFO the UAP phenomena really. caught on um the Overton window has. shifted and now what we do seems. completely like if anything like too. traditional and too we're you know we're. too unconser too conservative in our. approaches compared to what other people. want to do. So now you've got Avy who's. trying to do project Galileo right to. actually look for UFOs in the atmosphere. and stuff. And I think it's a valid. point like if we're you can't say that. looking for aliens on an exoplanet is.

good science, but looking for aliens in. the atmosphere is not science. Like that. it's still you can design an experiment. to do it. It's still scientific. There's. no magical reason why once it enters the. atmosphere, it doesn't become science. >> So I think that's a good argument why we. should do it. Um, >> what is your take on all these UAP. whistleblowers who talk about crash. retrieval programs and all these. darkfunded. top secret beyond anyone's ability to go.

look into them? >> I don't know what to make of it. It's. It's fascinating. It's It's cuz I can't. believe maybe some of them uh, you know, are pulling our leg and bullshitting it. for the fame or whatever, but I there's. so many um credible people that have. come forward. It's hard. It it it's. difficult to pass what's going on. But I. do believe everyone's fallible, right? So it is possible uh you know like you. know there's as I said there's so many. millions of hours in the air of these. pilots and things. There's so many so.

many people so many cell phones so so. much out there that it's not surprising. that one in a million times um a mistake. or something could happen. And it's all. about knowing that spurious rate. like. how often does do you just randomly. generate [ __ ] in this whole system. that we've got and we don't know what. that [ __ ] occurrence rate is. So as. a scientist it's hard to make to pass. it. Um I don't think we can ingest it. realistically unless you know every time. they say they've got the the disclosure.

thing right we're going to get. disclosure soon and every time it feels. like we don't get the craft we don't get. the technology you know we don't get a. body so yeah sure if you give me if you. give me the technology and let me. dissect it in my lab then I could be. convinced but um every time it seems. like it's uh we get all the way up to. that point where it's like it's going to. happen it's going to happen it's going. to happen and then. >> it's intensely frustrating it's. intensely frustrating to even be. remotely interested in it cuz every new. thing you're like what is this it is. this going to be a thing pulling on your.

heartstrings you know it's like a girl. who keeps texting you saying like we'll. go on a date we it's going to be great. next time and then she just lets you. down every time. >> what is the name of that disclosure age. of disclosure documentary that's what it. is right. >> there's a documentary that they. premiered at uh Sundance or at um South. by Southwest rather here that was really. good and it it is essentially just all. these different people that worked on. these programs spilling the beans and. they all have pretty similar stories and. the bottleneck seems to be that all this. stuff was done without congressional.

approval which is highly illegal. So all. the research all this hidden back. engineering programs all this stuff in. conjunction also with military. contractors. So there's those are the. ones that build the jets and the rockets. and so you have to go to them to help. with this stuff and to try to back. engineer this stuff. So then there's. this competitive advantage they would. have over other military contractors. that don't get a crashed UFO and like so.

then people are getting sued, people are. going to jail. There's a lot of money. that was allocated for these things that. was done through lies. >> and there's a lot of problems with that. and with this documentary is essentially. calling for mass amnesty and saying look. this is a if this is real and they think. it is this is a situation that is. forget about whatever laws we have in. terms of finance this is a much bigger. deal this is there is direct evidence of. an actual life form that is not homo.

sapiens that can do things that we can't. do that visits us and occasionally they. lose a craft which is also hard to. believe right how they get here and they. >> yeah they're not very good pilots right. >> Richard Dolan actually has a pretty good. explanation for some of them. >> and it's uh high alitude nuclear bombs. that we detonated during the the testing. days so during the testing days between. after the war from 45 to I think they. tested them I think when did they stop.

blowing up nukes. But there was just in the United States. >> Yeah. >> Thousands of nuclear detonations. And a. bunch of them they did in the ocean and. a bunch of them they did in the sky. Yeah. >> They did them like 150 miles up. They. detonated nukes. I thought they only did. it once with um uh Starfish Prime. But. no, they did it at different altitudes. They did it they just tried things. And. the idea is that there if there was. something in the sky anywhere remotely.

near that and had no idea this was going. to go off and they detonate a nuke in. the sky that this thing would crash. >> Knocked out the sky. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it's a great story. I just. need to see the evidence, right? >> Oh, it's the best story. >> Yeah. I think this is I mean it's just. it could be I mean in Iceland most. people believe in fairies and uh if you. go back you know 100 years most people. believe that. >> most people in Iceland believe in. fairies. Wow. What do they think they. are? >> Elves. Maybe elves or fair is coming up. with the exact word they use. Yeah, but.

they. >> Soviet. What does this say, Jamie? What. they did? >> Those are the last high altitude tests. >> Okay, so the last So the last high. altitude Look at how many they did. They. just kept doing them. They just kept. doing them. Look at all these [ __ ]. tests. These are all high alitude. nuclear bombs. >> A bunch failed. Yeah, >> that is insane. Yeah, a bunch failed. Look at all these ones that failed. What. happened to those? to just fall into the. ocean. Good luck. Figure it out. Fish. >> way had that for lunch. >> Yeah. Figure it out. That's where. Godzilla comes from. Literally the.

movie. >> Yeah. I mean, I guess the my point is. that there's uh whenever, you know, we. have this weird stuff. Um Aliens is I I. read about this recently. Aliens is is. almost too good of an explanation, >> right? >> Because it can explain everything. There's nothing you can't explain with. Aliens, right? Whatever it is. And yet, so it has I call it unbounded. explanatory capability. It can explain. absolutely [ __ ] everything. Yeah, it's god of the gaps. Quite literally, whenever you see something odd, you can.

just inject your god to explain that. And yet at the same time, on the other. side of the coin, it also has unbounded. avoidance capacity because you could say. to me, >> look, I saw a UFO at this site on. Monday, on Tuesday, and Wednesday. So, come Thursday and we'll see it together. because it's happening every day. And I. come with you, I don't see it. and okay. well just didn't I guess it changed its. mind it didn't happen today that doesn't. disprove your what you saw and similarly. if I go you know people have said um you. know we've surveyed the surface of Mars.

we don't see any life on it I can't. disprove there's life on Mars there. could be life underneath a rock that we. just haven't turned over yet you can. never disprove you can't prove a. negative so there could always it could. always be there so aliens is almost um. unscientific as a hypothesis because it. can explain everything and yet there's. no experiment I can to ever prove it's. wrong. >> And that that puts it in a very. precarious position scientifically, >> right? Yeah. We're just sort of in this. adolescent stage of understanding and we. we if they are real, we really don't.

know right now. And that's the weirdest. part is that there's so many compelling. stories. >> Yeah. >> There's so and it's also the weirdness. of it is so exciting to us. The. weirdness of an intelligent life form. looking at us is like so exciting to us. that we want it to be real. >> You want to believe. >> Oh, me more than anybody. I'm the worst. I'm the worst. I I I go back and forth. on it's [ __ ] My general.

belief is that a large number of these. things that we're seeing are top secret. military aircrafts. And I think that's. always existed. That's always been the. case. And they probably have some. incredible technology that we're not. aware of. That's the majority of what I. think is happening. But that doesn't. make sense when you go really far back. That doesn't make sense when you go to. the Kenneth Arnold sightings. Like if if. if his estimations of the speed of those. things is accurate, you're dealing with.

something that for sure wasn't available. in 1952, at least as far as we know. Also, the idea that that was Nazi. technology. This is something that So. talked about and Richard Dolan talked. about in his book as well. They were. already gone, right? They they would. they had lost the war any there's no way. they're launching technology that's. above and beyond anything anybody is. aware of while they're society's in. shambles right there's no way they don't. have a military anymore it's over the. war's over. So that doesn't make sense. So if it's not them who is it? Is it.

someone that's already here? Is it. something that's been here the entire. time? And then that gets really weird. and people go well where's the evidence. of that? Well, the right there's no. evidence of that. But there's also so. much room in the ocean. The ocean is if. I was going to hide, that's where I. would hide. We literally can't go there. There's there's too much of it. You. could you could go into the ocean and. put a base underground in the middle of. the ocean and 100% we're not going to.

find it. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would just say whatever. your hypothesis is, um the mo the most. constructive thing to do is to think. about how can we like prove or disprove. it. That's we can that's what I want. >> until something Yeah. Well, that's this. is the most frustrating thing about this. disclosure jazz because if they really. do have something, boy, you're [ __ ]. over the entire human race by not. releasing this just cuz you're worried. about Congress getting mad at you. Like. that's a real problem. That's a real. problem. That's what this movie tries to. address. And Richard Dolan talks about. that in his book as well. And a bunch of.

people have brought up that point that. there's a lot of legal issues that are. going to arise and a lot of people could. be very vulnerable if this does turn out. to be the case that they have had this. technology since the 1940s. >> Yeah. I mean I would we can argue about. history but I think the most. constructive thing is just to design an. experiment like and I think uh you know. Aby's idea of project GI is a good one. like we should we should try and survey. the sky more systematically and we've. got now the Vera Rubin telescope which.

is doing like literally a movie of the. entire sky every night. So, I think as. we grow in our capabilities, uh, it's going to get harder and harder. for this UAP hypothesis to evade all of. these facilities that we're building in. a public domain. Right? This is public. data, not military controlled. facilities. >> They're very aware of our capabilities. and very aware that we can do this. So, they camouflage themselves. >> Yeah. But then then you're starting to. get into this sort of, you know, exponentially contrived.

>> Yeah. >> You know, because they're in our heads. and they know everything. So then it. becomes unfalsifiable. So we're sort of. leaving the world of science. But I. think you know when we think about as a. scientist like we're doing this. experiment with JWST for exoplanets like. we are looking for life right now with. James Webb. There was even a claim uh. for a planet K218b. Uh there was a claim uh few months ago. It's a it's an ocean world. It's thought. to be an ocean world. It's about two and. a half times the size of the earth. And. we detected this molecule with weak. significance. want to emphasize that it.

was only weekly detected called dimethyl. sulfide and that's I think it's the the. same molecule which gives truffles that. smell that they have. >> and it's something the bacteria and and. phytolanton make on the earth. >> So they detected this uh this the hint. of this molecule and as far as we know. only life can make this molecule on the. earth. We don't know of any other. process that can make it except for. living creatures. Um, and so it was, you. know, a lot of excitement about that. And the it turned out in that case with. follow-up observations, it maybe is not.

as secure as they thought and is. actually doesn't appear to be there. anymore. >> But I guess the point is that James Webb. can do the experiment. It is sensitive. enough to look at a planet which is 100. light years away and detect the. molecular signatures of living creatures. on that planet. So, we are entering a. very exciting era where we can look at. their planets. We don't have to wait for. them to visit us anymore. We can. actually start surveying where they're. at and and seeing what's up. So, uh I. think that's going to and that's just.

simple life. Of course, that's not even. technological life. So, I think it's. going to I think we're going to get. answers. Um and the only way to to do. this is to keep, you know, supporting. missions like NASA's mission with these. future observatories that are trying to. get us to that point. We're trying to. build a a mission now called the. Habitable Worlds Observatory, HWO. Um, it'll probably get renamed at. some point. Like I think it'll be like. the Carl Sean Observatory. Probably. would be a rebranding for it is my. hunch. Um, and that thing's trying to. take photos like we saw with Alpha. Centuri. It's trying to do photos but of.

Earthsized planets. JWST can't image. earthsized planets. They're too small. This thing will be able to take photos. of Earth's around other stars and it. will see the pale blue dot of light of. that other world and we'll get its. chemical fingerprint. We'll be able to. sniff its atmosphere. We'll we'll pull. their pants down, right? We'll get the. whole thing. So, the aliens can't hide. from us forever, right? We're going to. our technology is getting to the point. where we're going to find them in their. own home. when they came out with the.

James Webb telescope, how long was the. development process and where are they. at now in terms of a future better. version of something like that? >> Yeah, it was a long process. I mean, almost as soon as Hubble launched, they. started planning the successor to. Hubble, which was James Webb. >> Um, it was famously over budget. I think. the original budget was supposed to be. $800 million and ended up costing 10. billion. Isn't that crazy? Just went. completely o overblown. But this is. always because um you know there was.

some bad contractors. Astronomers tend. to underestimate their budgets a little. bit when they're planning these things. out and there's inflation. So these. things you know if you do a project over. 20 years which is what it ended up. taking because it was 1995 I think and. then we got it in sort of was it 2021. 2022 actually ended up getting in the. sky. So it took a long time right for. that for that project to develop. We are. starting the HWA project now. There's. already uh design teams, working groups. um that are putting the first, you know, blueprints together of what this thing. would look like. But of course, it's in.

jeopardy because the White House wanted. to slash the NASA science budget by 50%. Which basically just ends that entire. program. You there's about 40 missions. that would end uh NASA missions that. would end in that White House budget. But fortunately, the Senate um. readjusted it back up to pretty much. last year's level. Why don't you go talk. to those people? Why don't you give a. speech the way you just laid it out for. us and how fascinating important this. stuff is? >> I don't think these [ __ ] know. >> I've lo I've been to DC. I have lobbied.

But you only talk to the aids, right? That's all you end up talking to. >> Yeah. You've got to get in front of. Congress. You got to get in front of. these people where the American people. see it on television and get a chance to. understand like this is it. >> I do. Yeah. >> This is like one of the most important. things to look for that you could even. imagine. And we can do it. We We. actually for the first time in human. civilization, we have the ability to do. the experiment. Is there life on another. planet? >> What is this Jamie? This is some of the. images from the Hubble. >> This is showing what the new telescope,

the Roman scope telescope would show. >> It's just a huge field of view, right? >> That picture is what the Hubble got. And. then it's zooming out to show you what. >> So Roman's happening hopefully. Yeah, Roman should be flying. >> Wow. Roman, interestingly, is a it's it's. military technology. It's spy. technology. So, the the apparently the. NSA had two Hubble class space. telescopes in their basement. They just. were like said to NASA, "By the way,

we're not using these. They're out of. date for us. Do you want one?" And NASA. took it and turned into Roman. >> That's crazy. >> They just have them lying around. >> That's what I'm talking about. These. [ __ ] have technology they're. keeping from us. What What could be done. better? Like what what what is if you. had an unlimited budget and. enormous supply of brilliant minds to. get together to coordinate something? What would be how you would set it up to. make it even more powerful. >> for what goal?

>> Seeing further, seeing clearer, being. able to precisely locate planets and get. a much better view of them. Yeah, I. think as I said earlier, whenever we. improve our instrumentation, our. precision by a factor of anywhere from. three up to 10, let's say, in that. ballpark, like a big improvement, you. you get surprises. You find stuff you. never expected in the universe. And. we've seen that every time. So, >> every time, >> yeah, I think the the whenever you. listen to the universe in a different.

way. So, we were, you know, for years. and years, we've just been using our. eyes basically optical light to look at. the universe and X-rays and radio waves. And then recently we started doing LIGO. and LIGO is listening for gravitational. waves from the universe instead. So it's. like listening to the acoustic. oscillations of the universe rather than. seeing it. And again as soon as we. started doing that we discovered tons. and tons of merging black holes and it's. just totally transformed our idea of how. black holes merge and form. So whenever. we do something we've never done before. look in a different way the universe.

constantly surprises us. So it's not. going to be a single um mission. It's. not going to be we should all just put. all our eggs in this one basket of. Habitable Worlds Observatory. We need to. have this multi-prong attack of let's. just keep pushing everything and making. sure it's a significant improvement from. what came before in terms of the. sensitivity and making sure the. scientists to actually interpret the. data at the end of the day. Right? You. can't do science unless the data is a. public and then b um people are actually. there to to study it. So those are the.

two key ingredients. just have great. telescopes and great people. >> Is funding the biggest bottleneck for it. right now or is it a lack of interest. from the right amount of people? Like. what is it? >> Yeah, certainly I mean HWO we're talking. about a mission that's going to cost at. least 10 billion and the NASA budget is. about 25 26 billion. So it's eating up. already I mean if you built it in one. year it would eat up almost you know. half of the budget. So it's impossible. for that mission to be built in a year,

even though probably we could if we had. the money. Maybe in a year or two, you. could probably build something like. that. So that yeah, if you if you. doubled NASA's budget, it would come. twice as fast for sure. You'd have it in. maybe five years rather than waiting to. 2050. That's what we're talking about. phase. It's just kind of depressing when. you think about. >> Well, it's kind of depressing is like. weird stuff happens. Like when the Biden. administration left, they 93 billion. dollars in loans just went off to like. weird places like which is more than. they had done in 15 years. It's like you. guys could have done that. >> You have the money.

>> You guys had the money to make the most. insane telescopes. >> Yeah, >> we could find out more. >> Yeah, I think Carl Sean had a quote. once. He said that the uh the entire. SETI program was equivalent to one. attack helicopter. If you did like the. entire in its maximal form would have. been the cost of one attack helicopter. >> Dude, if I was president, I'd go ham. I'. I'd bring in all the cosmologists. I'm. like, "What do we got to do? Let's get. crazy. Let's get crazy. You guys want to. get rich? This image shows uh telescopes that we.

have used and then a few that are being. made. So down here's the size of the. James Web telescope. It's all the way. down. >> Yeah. I mean it's limit it's only 6 and. a half meters. So it's limited. They. couldn't really make it any bigger. because you couldn't get a rocket that. could fit it. So actually Starship could. launch that thing without any unfolding. It wouldn't have 200 points of failure. It's it could actually pretty much fit. inside the fuselage of Starship. And. even better, it would cost less because. a huge cost in these space telescopes is. making them really light. So the mirrors.

are like these special honeycomb. structures to make them super light. So. they they're low cost to launch. But if. you have Starship, it can launch like. 100 tons, I think it is. You could. literally just take these groundbased. telescopes you already have and just. shove them in there and, you know, obviously put some some chassis on it, but you could it'd be way way cheaper to. launch these things. So, I mean, I'm. very excited about the prospect of. having heavy launch capabilities that. Starship give us. That plus investment. in something like, you know, these kind. of giant telescope designs, we could. launch some truly gargantuan things into.

space and probe those atmospheres and, you know, see those aliens and what. they're up to. So, um, yeah, I would I. would say the future can be bright. because we have the means to do it, if. we have the will to do it. It just seems. to be a puzzle that most human beings on. earth are fascinated with, the fact that. that is inadequately funded is enraging. >> Yeah, >> it's enraging. It just makes you crazy. Like out of all the things that we.

should be interested in, that seems to. the space seems to be the big one. And. it was until we were all [ __ ] up by. light pollution. I think if we didn't. have light pollution, I think people. would have a a much greater sense of the. majesty of the of our existence in the. cosmos. It's such a bummer. It really. is. >> Have you been to a dark skies area? >> Yes. >> Yeah. I've talked about it too many. times in the podcast to repeat it, but. there was a time when um uh I went to.

the the um the array in um uh the big. island. >> Mona and uh I went up there on the. perfect night. There was no moon and it. was like being in the hub of the. universe. It was like being in a. spaceship, a convertible spaceship. That's what it felt like. It was so. incredible. The entire sky was filled. with stars. The Milky Way was. beautifully clear. And it was like. life-changing. Life Ch I've I've gone up.

there three times since. Never caught it. that way again. >> Yeah. Kind of like the overview effect. You heard that with astronauts when they. go up to space and they see the Earth. And I think we should we should launch. all our um presidents into space. >> Oh, that's bring them back. But let them. have that that overview because I think. that is. >> launch it with Katy Perry. Everyone has. to go up with Katy Perry. She has to. bring a date. >> She's the guide. Yeah, I mean I think that would be great. for I also think they should have a. mushroom experience, but that's just me. But going into space just I mean just.

being able to see it used to be the norm. for human beings. There was no light. pollution. You could get away from the. campfire. You lay on your back and you. see everything. And I think that gave us. a better understanding. First of all, it. made us more humble for sure. you're. you're confronted with this impossible. image in front of you. And now that we. know what that is. So ancient man's. looking at it. It's just incredible. beautiful lights and they're tracking. the constellations and marking them.

down. And this is what this is. Let's. call this one Leo. But when you get to. what we know now and what we know, those. are all fireballs in the sky that are. bigger than our sun and they're millions. of miles away and that you're seeing. just a tiny fraction of what the actual. universe is, which is really nuts when. you see like if I'm I'm sure you've seen. this, but may maybe people haven't. when. there's an image of what you see in the. night sky, when you have a full clear.

view of the cosmos and it's this tiny. little itty bitty little thing and yet. it's still insane and majestic. And I. think that we've gotten so arrogant. because of cities because everybody just. sees this black cloud over us, this just. this curtain over the sky and maybe you. see the moon, but that's it. You see a. dot here or a dot there. That's the only. stars you see are the most bright ones. are Venus. >> and then you don't get a sense of what. we're really doing.

>> Yeah. It makes me sad when you know. >> So here's an inner city sky, suburban, urban, ser rural, excellent dark sky. But then what with the thing about the. observatory is that it's above the. clouds. We drove through the clouds when. we saw. >> that. Doesn't even do it justice. >> No, not even close. But there's pictures. of it. see if you can the Monoloa. Observatory. >> Yeah. I think what makes me sometimes. sad as as an astronomer is sometimes. people say, you know, what's the point. of looking for life out there like I I. care about the, you know, the bread on.

the table, economy and jobs and uh. factories and stuff like that. I care. about the things that really directly. affect my life. Um, but I think there. has to be things that we do as humans, existential things like are we alone in. the universe? How can be a bigger. question than that? >> That's what I saw. Yeah, >> maybe even better than that. >> And when you see something like that, you realize that there's more to this. life than just substance of just stay. staying alive for the sake of staying. alive. There are grander things we have. on this planet.

>> Also, it's so frustrating that we're. very capable of curing all those. problems for the vast majority of people. on this planet if we weren't so [ __ ]. greedy. >> Yeah. If we really treated humanity like. a community, we could we could. completely eliminate starvation and. poverty the way it exists today. We can. completely just No one's even tried. >> Yeah. The inequality right now is is so. out of control in this country, in the. world. >> Well, in the country, but in the world, the craziest thing that I've ever heard.

is that $34,000 is 1% of the world. >> Yeah. >> The 1enters, the people that are running. the world that everybody likes to think. they're the the people pulling the. strings. No, that's you, [ __ ]. >> You're a [ __ ] You work at Starbucks. You're a 1enter. >> If you work full-time at Starbucks, you. are the 1% of the world. You're the. string puller. But you're not, right? No. No. The world's really kind of. crazy. >> It's the 0001 or whatever it is. Yeah. That's the problem. >> Both things can be accomplished. You if. we really directed our resources in a in.

a kind, moral, and ethical way, we would. solve that first and then get everybody. excited about solving the cosmos. Yeah, it is kind of ridiculous that in. astronomy, you know, we used to always. be completely federally supported. There. was some private funding, but by and. large it was it was pushed and pulled by. federal grants and federal money. And I. think that's generally healthy, right? Because then it's it's everyone can. apply for it. Um it's not about being. mates with Jeff Bezos or being friends. with, you know, certain high influence. people. But we we get to this stage.

increasingly where, you know, private. money is having a big influence even in. astronomy and other fundamental sciences. as well. And then, you know, the people. that succeed end up being not. necessarily the Einstein's the most. brilliant people. They're just the. people that have the right connections. and can pull the strings and uh we're on. the island at the right time with that. kind of stuff. And that's just kind of. gross. >> It's gross. Yeah. It shouldn't be that. way. >> It's also gross that humans can control. resources. I mean, think about all the. problems that they have on Earth that. are directly a result of someone wanting.

to control natural resources. >> That really should be everybody's. Mhm. >> If we're really smart about it, we look. at the oil is clearly everybody's. The. water is clearly everybody's. We should. all agree that all the stuff that we. need should be everybody's. >> Yeah. It's like you charge you for air. would be wild, right? >> But you can charge you for water or they. can charge you for oil. It's kind of. crazy. It's kind of crazy that we have. allowed that system to be in place where. an individual can literally be in. control of the blood of the earth that.

we use to make plastic and electronics. Yeah. >> And that's where we're at, >> right? So when you get that, you know, if you do go to I've never been to. space. I've never had that. Certainly. seen clear night skies. But I think when. you look out, you see not countries and. boundaries. You just see this. We're all. in this together. Tiny little fragile. thing. There's it. This is it. Like we. could [ __ ] this up so easily, but we. could also make it so glorious if we. were together. >> That also gives me pause about this. whole idea that the aliens are like. space daddies come to keep us from.

blowing ourselves up. Like that might be. like very idealistic thinking. If they. don't exist, we're on our own. >> Delusion, right? It's like it's wishing. for that fatherly figure to come down. and teach me the ways and look after us. And that's just look, the covery ain't. coming, Joe. This is it. It's all it's. on us. It's on our skin to solve this. freaking problem. >> Well, I was like when uh the United. States was about to bomb Iran, I was. like, "Okay, well, now we're going to. find out. Yeah. >> Let's see if the aliens step in and go,

"Hey, hey, hey, cut the shit." They. didn't. No. >> Maybe they only step in when you use. nukes. >> Maybe they have like a threshold of. acceptable aggression that they allow. >> Yeah. I don't think there's any back. stop. There's no back. It's. >> I think it's up to us. >> Yeah. >> I think we have to figure it out. But I. think we're all aware of that. And. that's kind of the cool part of this. whole the weirdness of this experience. that we're going through is that it's. not guaranteed and that there's a bunch. of struggle that really has to take. place. There's a lot of thinking that.

has to take place, a lot of talking and. and understanding and a recognition that. some of the our behavior is totally. illogical. >> and totally a lot of it. >> totally counterproductive. But like why. like why are we still behaving like. territorial apes? Like what is a even. though you're not and I'm not Jaime's. not like a lot of people aren't you know. it's not everything it's not every. interaction that humans have but it's. enough that it's still pushing the worst.

aspects of our life which is war and. poverty and crime and violence. It's. still pushing all those things. >> Yeah. But I mean that it's hard because. you mean you became like the top podcast. and because there's competition and that. competition probably drove you to make. the podcast better and better and better. and similarly as a scientist we're in. competition with each other. So there's. almost a catalyst system embedded into. science that I want to uh not like crush. my enemy or something. I'm not trying to. crush the other scientist but I. certainly have I know what the the level. field is and if you want to stand out.

you have to you know bat above that. level. And so that that drives me to. become I'm definitely influenced by. competition. I feed off it. Yes. And and. it makes me a better scientist. When I. know someone's breathing down my neck at. my data, I'm like, let's listen it. Let's just crank out the hours. We're. going to do the best we can. But if I. know no one's looking at my data set and. I've got three years to myself, I'm just. going to chill. I'm just be like, there's no there's no urgency here. Let's think about other things. Let's do. other stuff. So that that. >> that competition, like you said, is.

really double-edged. And I don't know, we need to figure out a way to to. channel it because um you know I did. martial arts as a kid a lot and one of. the things I really do I did taekwondo I. did bit of Muay Thai um and I did some. shakan karate um but mostly taekwondo. >> and I learned a lot from that and just. mentally about myself. I you know I. really want my kids to do martial arts. because I feel like it's just a. transformative experience for learning. how to master yourself. And one of the.

things I really learned was how to. channel negative feelings into something. productive, right? So I was uh feeling. really cut up about a breakup with a. girlfriend at the time. And I was just. beating the crap out of these punch bags. and I was going training every night, every session I could get my hands on. And then it ended up turning me into. this like beast. I was like ripped. I. got a six-pack and I was uh training. with a national squad and I, you know, I. got pretty decent. And it was it it. wasn't like I was aiming to do that. It. was just a outlet for this anger.

>> And then I looked back at it and. realized, hey, I've managed to turn this. negative thing into something really. productive. And I've tried to whenever I. have those kind of feelings. I always. try to twist them in the same way. I. remember when I first arrived at. Harvard, I had the same thing. I arrived. at Harvard and all the names in the. corridors were famous professors and I. was just freaking out. I was like, "Fuck, I've got to have coffee with this. guy. This these legends. like how am I. going to like handle a conversation with. these dudes? And um I remember I was.

kind of like a bit of an outcast cuz I. wasn't in anyone's group at the time. And I remember walking down the corridor. and hearing them laugh at me saying, "Oh, here comes the moon. I heard. there's a moon guy in the group or. something." They thought the idea of. looking for moons was crazy. So they're. all kind of laughing. I came around the. corridor and you know, kind of like, you. know, it was kind of awkward. And I felt. like they all looked down at me and they. probably did back then. And after a few. years, I really I know I earned their. respect because I was out publishing. them. And I was driven by that. competition. I was like, I'm going to.

show you. I'm going to prove to you how. good I am by publishing twice what you. publish. I'm going to do better science. I'm going to do more of it. I'm going to. make myself so good. You can't ignore. me. It'd be ridiculous to ignore what. I'm doing because I'm so far ahead of. you. That's what I wanted to do. And I. got to a point where I knew they wanted. me in their group now. They were like, "Oh, come join our, you know, come join. our group." And I didn't let them get. close because I knew I perform better. when I play that game in my head that. everyone's against me. It was just sort. of a mind [ __ ] And it's that same I.

get it. Yeah. Same thing as martial. arts. It's like learning what are the. tricks, the hacks that make you operate. well, but being conscious of it. And I. think as a society, if we can do that, there's a hack. Competition is a hack. that makes us super productive. But it's. just a way can we hack it and channel it. in a conscious way towards a productive. outcome. >> Yeah. turn it into enthusiasm and turn. it into inspiration instead of just be. overcome with jealousy and rage which is. what happens to the weaker of minds. >> Yeah. Well, you know, interesting enough.

with this podcast, I don't think of it. in a competitive way at all and I never. have. And uh I think that's one of the. reasons why it's successful is because. this podcast, even though it might be. the number one podcast, it's cooperative. with I don't know how many podcasts, a. giant number of my friends do podcasts. I promote their podcast. I have them on. >> I'll do their podcast sometimes. I like. we all promote each other. So it's it. >> the community.

>> Yeah. I mean, I don't know how other. people do it, but I don't do it that. way. I think only about what I want to. do. Um, and I think the only way to have. all of your resources, all of your concentration and all of. your efforts put entirely into the. subject matter and what the conversation. is going to be like. You shouldn't be. thinking about anything else. Shouldn't. be thinking about results. I just think. about process. It's all I think about. All I think about is like, okay, he's. going to come in. What am I what are my. questions? What are we going to talk.

about? And I'm excited about this. I'll. listen. I'll drive my car. I'll listen. to the sauna to things. and I just. really get worked up about it. But I. don't do it for competition. I do it. because. >> I think I'm super lucky to be able to do. it. And I think it would be a horrible. misuse of that fortune if I didn't treat. it with respect if I didn't do my best. every time I do it. So I just do that. >> and that's it. >> Yeah. From the martial arts that you. must have a competitive drive there, right? >> Yeah. But it's not in podcasting.

>> Yeah. It. >> seems like it would be because that's. the thing I'm the most successful in, which is kind of weird. >> Uh it's uh. >> yeah, I'm competitive in everything, but. I'm very competitive with myself. >> I'm very self-critical, which is one of. the things that I learned from martial. arts is if you don't have an accurate. assessment of your abilities and you. think you're better than you really are, if you can't see someone do something, go that guy's better than me, then. you're missing out because you're also. missing out on the opportunity for you. personally to get better. If you're.

delusional and you think you're better. than you are, maybe you won't work as. hard or maybe you won't correct some of. the errors in your technique and maybe. your approach and your tactics. You have. to constantly be improving this thing. and you have to have people that are. better than you that you train with all. the time. So that sort of cooperative. thing that came out of martial arts. where you need killers to become a. killer, that helped me so much in comedy. because my approach to comedy was. different than most of the other. comedians that had television deals and. movie deals. They all wanted to be the.

man and they wanted to be at the top and. kind of keep everybody else down. There. was a lot of that going on. There's a. few people that were cooperative, but I. was ultra cooperative. Like I would prop. people up. I want them to get better. I'll tell them how to get better. I'd. help them. I'd help young guys. I would. I want I'd go on the road with people. funnier than me. Like I wanted it. because I know from martial arts this is. the only way. You don't get comfortable. and get better. You got to be like. really uncomfortable a lot of the time. to get better. And the but that getting.

better is the ultimate. That's what the. goal is for everyone. And it can't just. be for you. If that if you have this. short-sighted idea like I have to be the. king like no you're you're missing out. on the whole thing. The whole thing is. you need a bunch of kings. You need. everybody to be awesome and then we all. rise together. That's how it has to be. >> Yeah. In science, it so often goes both. ways though. It's the same in comedy and. and science. I mean that you think about. Isaac Newton um who's famously such an. [ __ ] That guy, right? He. >> a lot of comics like that too. Bigname.

guys, famous gets to the top and then. spends most of his subsequent career. just crushing other people down, right? And there's that need to be singularly. uh recognized as I want everyone to see. that it's just me and it's only me. But. there's a you know the scientists I. think we all admire and get on with the. best actually the ones who are. collaborative who who like comedy like. share and want to do it together. So I. think there's a lot to sometimes. comedians and scientists should interact.

more. I think there's when I was a um a. student, there used to be this thing. called Fame Lab, and they used to get. stand-up comedians to come in and teach. scientists how to talk to the public, how to do scientific communication. And. they said it's the same I don't know, maybe you disagree, it's the same kind. of thing. You have to have the kind of. the balls to stand up there and just put. yourself in that situation. >> It helps if you have an English accent. >> They in comedy, >> no. talking about the cosmos. >> That probably helps. It does. In comedy, it doesn't help me. >> It could help. It works with Jimmy Carr. It works with Ricky Jerves.

>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, they've got it. >> There's a certain air of respectability. that comes with an English accent. It. doesn't come with an American accent. >> Yeah. So, I think uh I think there's a. lot to Yeah. public speaking is. something a lot of scientists. It's. saying because there's so many brilliant. scientists and they just can't they. can't sit and then there's so many. people that call themselves science. educators that don't really know what. they're talking about and they're. talking about science and. >> these are the people that are like the. figureheads, >> right? Unfortunately, instead of the. actual people that are doing the. science. Yeah, it's a skill. I mean,

it's a skill that anyone can learn. If. you can talk to a friend, you can talk. to the public. You just have to learn. how to do it and you have to get better. at it. It's not impossible. And yeah, you're going to have anxiety, but that's. a challenge that you should just embrace. that challenge and get over it and just. have notes and be prepared and practice. just like everything else. Like if. you're intelligent enough to be a. cosmologist, you're intelligent enough. to talk publicly in front of a bunch of. people about cosmology. And you also. you're going to have a certain amount of.

enthusiasm that you're going to have to. figure out the right way to convey it to. people to make it infectious. And that's. where it gets complicated because some. people are brilliant, but they're bland. and flat. >> And you know, I'm sure you've had. professors like that, right? Yeah. And. they're brilliant, but they're just. like, "Oh my god, I'm droning out with. this [ __ ] I've slept through a. few lectures in my time. >> Yeah. And then there's people like Carl. Sean who are just fascinating to listen. to the way he talks. Yeah. Magnetic. The. charisma. It's a thing. It's a factor, you know. It's not the only one, but.

it's a thing. It's a It's a part of it. And. >> you think you could teach someone to be. Sean? >> No. No. I think there's, you know, you. can't teach someone to be Dave. Chappelle, but you can teach them to be. a better version of who they are. for. sure. Mhm. >> You know, and and then extroverts are. extroverts and introverts are introverts. and it's just like it just, >> you know, you're not going to be the. same person as Jim Carrey. You know, like you have to be that guy to be that. guy. But you can learn how to better. express yourself and you can learn. there's techniques. There's an.

understanding of how the human mind. that's interpretating that that's. interpreting what you're saying. How are. they perceiving this? Are they. perceiving your emotions? So they feel. maybe there's an anecdotal story that. you can bring out with passion that. connects these people to you so they can. understand what made you so locked into. this idea and then they'll go oh and. then they feel it instead of just. blandly reciting facts and just doing it. because this is the way you do it with. your co-workers and your peers. >> Yeah. I learned that through YouTube.

You know I do a lot of YouTube. communication and when I first started. the channel I remember I was copying. I. was looking at other stuff that I see. was doing well and I was trying to like. transplant that style of video onto my. own and it wasn't me. It was it was it. was it was kind of like um too animated, too, you know, I'm more of a chill. person and this was like, "Hey, hey, let's talk about space, you know, that's. just like not it just it doesn't jive. with me that much, but I put it on." And. then I was doing this for a while and we.

we just kind of flatlined in subscribers. after a while and I was like, I think. I'm going to pat this in, but before I. do, I'll just make one or two videos the. way I really want to do it and then I'll. stop. And so I made these like super. deep dive and I kind of opened up a. little bit personally and you have to be. a little bit vulnerable to let your, you. know, I'm a romantic so I wanted that. romantic element of astronomy to come. out. You know, why am I so passionate. about the stars? What are the deep. questions that moved me since since I.

was a kid? Those you have to let that. personality come out. And once that once. people realize why you personally are so. fascinated by this, it becomes. infectious, right? and then they start. to get the same bug. So yeah, I learned. as as a as a as a communicator that. certainly being willing to be. vulnerable, it does it feels very. strange as a scientist to talk about. vulnerability and emotional connection, but unless you let that in, it becomes. it becomes dry. It becomes inaccessible.

>> Yeah. I think I think there's a lot of. truth to that. And I think that applies. to almost any kind of public speaking, whether it's standup comedy. I think it. even applies to music, you know, when. someone is singing the blues and you. just you just know that they've had some. heartache. Like I always said that. that's one of the reasons why Janice. Jofflin was so good when she would sing. Take a Little Piece of My Heart. You. believe that? >> You believed it. Like it was coming out. like that. That's a lady that's. experienced some pain. >> I always with the Alonas Moriceets. >> Yes.

>> That Jack Jack Little Pel me and my dad. talk about that all the time. Like. there's so much rawness in that damn. album. >> You can't imitate that. Yeah, you can't. imitate that. And you can't imitate that. with comedy. You can't imitate that with. anything. But I think you could teach. people how to do that with when they. talk about science. It could be taught. >> Yeah. Find their own authentic voice and. use that because no one wants to see a. copy, right? You want to see something. fresh. That's what makes it exciting. >> Well, then the beautiful thing about. YouTube and putting out your own content. is you can figure that out on your own.

Yeah, >> you don't have to get molded by. executives and some, you know, show. business type people that are going to. turn you into a version they think is. going to be most marketable. You can. figure and people will probably tell, they would probably tell you to do it. differently. They'd probably tell you to. you got to have more energy, David. You. got to like wave your hands around a. lot. >> That's why I don't do those shows bow. tie. >> I used to do a few of those and I got. sick of it for that exact I remember I. was talking about a supernova once on. camera. I went to the show and the. director was behind the camera. two of them. I was like, "Can we just.

try?" No, bigger. Do bigger. And I was. like, I that's just not that's not what. I what I'm about. Can we just bring it. down? And. >> yeah, I think being on YouTube's great. Uh cuz you get to just authentically. talk the way you want to talk. >> You'll find an audience, you know? I. mean, the people when I first started. doing this podcast, everybody was. telling me, you can't do three hours. It's too long. I'm like, why not? >> Just don't listen to the whole three. I. don't give a [ __ ] I'm just going to do. what I want to do. This is what I if I'm. talking to Graham Hancock about ancient. civilizations, we're not going to talk.

for 20 minutes, man. We're going to talk. for hours and hours and hours. I'm like, what else? What else? You know, what I'm. as long as you're curious. Yeah. That's. what makes it good because you're. engaged with the topic. So, >> yeah. And this is the beautiful thing. about this time that we live in that. people can just start a YouTube channel. and just talk about things that you're. fascinated by and things you're. knowledgeable about and then people. attract to it. Yeah, it is kind of sad. that kids label YouTuber as the number. one job. >> Well, they influencer, I think, is the.

number one. >> Yeah, because it used to be astronaut, right? For. >> Yeah, and now YouTuber or social media. star is like, yeah, my kids both have. little YouTube channels. They're. obsessed with it. They every day we have. to do a premiere of one of their videos. they've made around the house. And it's. definitely influenced kids kids now. That's they aspire for that. But it's. has some great elements. It's creative. It's an outlet. >> as long as you can keep your [ __ ]. together because the interaction with. that amount of human beings is also very.

problematic for young people. Yeah. Because just just social media, you. know, we talked about this the other. day, the Jonathan hates book, The. Coddling of the American Mind, that. shows self harm, particularly among. girls, uh the suicidal ideiation, all. the different things that happened to. them, anxiety and depression, all rises. with the invention of social media. >> That's times a hundred when you're. putting out content. And then especially. if you're reading that the comment. section and reading Reddit threads and.

reading your emails that. >> you're going to deal with so much hate. and so much anger and so many. frustrated, sick, mentally ill people. that are reaching out trying to destroy. your life for no [ __ ] reason. whatsoever. And if you, you know, you're. a young person and you don't know how to. like. >> put this into a rational Yeah. You're. not equipped for it. No one is equipped. for it. It's not normal. It's not a. normal type of interaction to have that. many people commenting on you in your. life. >> Yeah. >> And so that can [ __ ] kids up, especially.

if they're like really young and they. get into that and that's like how they. develop as an adult with that kind of. attention. I just think. >> my my kids channel is only me I think. that watches. And I think Yeah, but. you're totally right. I mean the the. feedback loop is is potentially really. damaging. Um, and I I I so glad that I. grew up in an era without cell phones. >> Yeah, me too. >> I can't imagine how I would have got. through life if I had Twitter at my. fingertips or Facebook or whatever it.

was growing up because that just adds a. whole new stress. And there's, you know, you hear these stories of kids at school. where, you know, the boys like saying to. their girlfriends like, "Oh, you need to. send me photos of you." And then they. they get these photos and they send it. around the school as a joke. And there's. all this kind of weird. >> [ __ ] up bullying going on. >> And we didn't have to deal with any of. that [ __ ] growing up. Like it's it's so. much simpler. I mean, my and my son was. saying to me, "Oh, I'm friends with this. other kid at camp cuz he's got 100. subscribers." And that's become a thing, right? Like how many how many. subscribers or followers you have? Sort.

of forms like a popularity rank in in. even real world settings. And. >> um it's messed up. There's so much. pressure on the kids in a way we never. experienced. And you know, the more. cognitive burden you have like that, the. less you can focus on the things you're. truly passionate about and discovering. what you want to do in your life. >> Yeah, it's going to be very challenging. for these kids. It's going to be very. weird. >> Catch GBTs, add like an extra virtual. girlfriends or whatever they probably. have on there. And.

>> yeah, gets weird. Um, listen man, thank. you very much for being here. I really. enjoyed it. It was really fun. Pleas. your channel, how they can watch your. content. >> Yeah, sure. My channel is called Cool. Worlds. Bit of mouthful. Cool Worlds. So. you can head to youtube.com/coolworlds. Um we also have a podcast, the. coolwoodslab podcast. Um and if you want. to support a real research program, that's my team, the coolslab at Columbia. University. Uh you can just head to. coolwoodslab.com/sport. Cool. There it is. Yep. Head over there.

And your for the price of a coffee per. month here, you can actually support. real astronomy research. >> Beautiful. Thank you very much. Let's do. this again sometime. >> Yeah, that's fine. Thank you. All right. Bye everybody. [Music]. This episode is brought to you by Simply. Safe. We go to doctors and dentists for. checkups for a reason. To make sure that.

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