Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> What's up, Sar? How are you? >> Hey, how are you, Joe? >> Good to see you. >> Oh, it's great to see you. It's great to. be here, man. >> How did you uh meet Paul? So, Paul. Stamuts Yeah. introduced me to you. So, how did you meet Paul? >> Yeah. Um, so I was aware of Paul for. quite some time. Um and this past. psychedelic science um I was shadowing.

uh people and uh work working to help. the people that went to the conference. feel safe just because of like the the. nature of the uh environment that that. that we're in now. >> In what way? >> Um you know like so psychedelic science. had um a lot of uh Jewish practitioners. They had invited Palestinian. practitioners in. There was Arab. practitioners there. So there was a lot. of um um education around sensitive. topics happening, you know, and um I was.

invited in uh just to be available to. help people feel secure. >> What were they worried about? >> Um yeah. Uh any protests building up um. >> just because there was Jewish people and. Palestinian people? >> Well, you know, the nature of the. environment, right? There's like wars. going on across. >> But this is a psychedelic conference, right? >> This is a psychedelic conference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and they're worried. about protests breaking out at. psychedelic conferences, >> possible protests, possible people. getting overwhelmed with emotion. Um,

you know, cuz in psychedelic science. 2023, there was a situation where when. Dick Rick Doblin was on stage, >> um, a group came in and disrupted his. presentation and they were allowed on. stage to speak. >> Oh boy. >> Right. But that's a type of disruption, right? And and it should be handled. carefully and and Rick handled it like a. master. >> What did he do? He he he made space for them. >> Oh, well, was that really the way to do. it? >> Well, it depends. It depends. It. depends. There's a time and a place,

right? And I think Psychedelic Science. 2025 did a wonderful job um hearing all. the groups that wanted to be there and. allowing them to have space to speak. from their hearts and minds. >> Why don't you tell everybody what your. background is? >> Sure. Sure. Um, so I am currently a law. enforcement professional at the rank of. lieutenant. Um, out of Massachusetts. Um, I've been in law. You can. >> tell by the accent. >> I mean, my accent's going to kick in and. on and off on and off through this whole. discuss.

>> Couple beers in really good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, that's been about 15 years. Um, I'm also. a therapist, a trained psychedelic. assisted therapist, and um, I believe a. lot of people believe I'm the first law. enforcement professional who, uh, who. got a religious exemption at their place. of work to access and theogens. >> So, how did your journey from being a. law enforcement professional to someone. who's involved in psychedelics, how did. that take place?

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm going to. have to go a little bit further back for. that. Sure. So, um I went to a little. high school in Boston, Massachusetts, uh. Newman Prep. And when I graduated there, I was luckily accepted into Northeastern. University. So, I go into Northeastern. University in my 20s. Um and they ask. you, "What do you want to major in, right?" And who knows what they want to. major in at that age. I was like, "Let's. study psychology, right? And get to know. myself, figure things out.".

Such a behavioral program. Um, what I. mean by that is rats pressing lovers, observable stuff. Uh, I wasn't getting. what I was looking for. So, I take a. philosophy class. I take a religion. class. Eventually, I take so many of. those classes. I graduate with an. undergraduate degree in religion and. philosophy and a huge minor in. psychology. Right? So, I'm a seeker at. that time as well. Uh, Nor Eastern is a. co-op school. So, you go to school for.

six months, you work for six months. I. was able to convince my uh co-op adviser. to let me be a security guard in the. nightclub industry in Boston. for my co-op for school. Okay. So, five-year program. I'm studying religion. and I'm working as a security guard in. the '9s in the nightclub scene in. Boston. Um, I have a front row seat when. ecstasy hits the scene,

>> right? I start working when it's high. test stimulants and alcohol and I'm. there continuing to work when the scene. gets introduced to ecstasy, MDMA. I not only get to see how it affects. people, but it affect the whole culture. The people at the clubs are no longer. looking at each other like, "Who are you. and what do you want?" They're saying, "Hi," and smiling. They're high-fiving. each other when they meet up. They're. hugging each other. I had that in my.

head in my 20s. Okay? >> So, I become a cop in my 30s. I meet this police chief. He notices. that I think a little differently. I see. things a little differently. My. background's a little different than. your typical officer. He starts taking. me to the International Association of. Chiefs of Police conference every year. This is a really important point. The. IAP, it's a really serious huge. international conference with upper.

level chief executive level officers. there. I go one year when Rick Doblin's. there. in Florida. He's presenting on phase 2 clinical. trials. the results for MDMA assisted. psychotherapy its efficacy against. treatment resistant severe PTSD. I can't believe it. Actually, I've. shared the story before. Uh at the. moment that he was going to present, to.

the left was Rick Doblin and to the. right was Donald Trump. >> I'm not making this up. >> Wow. >> All right. So, I go left. They sit in. the front row and the room that they. gave him, this huge room, has 10 people. in it cuz everybody's everybody went. right. 67%. of people with treatment resistant. severe PTSD had their PTSD pushed into. sustained remission. Sustained remission.

>> from how many experiences? >> I think the way it was set up was like. two or three. You know, there's a model. to the framework. preparation, experience, space, experience, space, experience, and then integration. >> And this is all done through MAP. So, it's all done in a clinical environment. >> Yes. >> Very controlled. >> Very controlled. Multiddisciplinary. Association of Psychedelic Studies. Rick's presenting there. I'm in the. front row. I'm shaken. I jump on stage. I beline it to him. I introduce myself.

and I say, "I have to help." He says, "Why don't you tell me some stuff about. who you are first?" You know what I. mean? Like this is a guy in front of me. shaking his I'm shaking his hand and. saying I have to help with this. And he. finds out I'm a therapist, too. Cop and. therapist. And he says the best way to. help is to become a psychedelic assisted. therapist. >> What? What's that? >> You'd never heard of anything? >> Never heard of any of that. >> What year was this again? >> Man, it must be five years ago. More.

maybe more than that at this point. Just. working from memory. It was Orlando, Florida. IAP conference. Yeah. You you. said something really important, Joe. Psychedelic assisted therapist. What? What? Medicalizing a schedule one. substance. What? You know how how is this even possible? But the story gets even more. interesting. He gives me his card and he says,

"Contact me." Right? What the heck is going on here? At this. point, I'm already telling my current my. retired chief what's going on. I'm. meeting these people and MAPS gets me. into one of the first. MDMA assisted therapist trainings, a. cohort of people that were going that. they trained on how to do this. methodology with people. So, you got to. know what's going on, right? It's a it's. a I mean, when someone's on MDMA,

they're you know, they're different and. you got to hold that. You got to hold. that. But not only did they do that, MAPS contacts me and says, "We might be. able to get you into a federally. sanctioned research protocol. as a healthy normal.". Because I'm an example of a healthy. normal, right? Where you're going to be able to. experience MDMA because they think that. it's important for the therapists to. know what MDMA does.

So I I mean really I I I I go back to my. police chief and I say, "Chief, I'm not. only going to be able to be trained as. an MDMA assisted therapist to help. people with PTSD because it matters to. me." Right. What are cops doing to. themselves, >> right? >> They're blowing their heads off. >> Right. >> Right. The suicide rate in cops is two. to three times higher than the rate in. civilians. more cops are dying by. suicide, by the barrel of their own.

guns, um, than attack on the street. Right. The way the media is portraying. everything that that that's not getting. out there, >> right? >> Right. So, MDMA can help with that. I I'd say we're in an epidemic of. suicide in first responders if if that's. the numbers. No. Yeah, for sure. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And and and and we've seen Joe, you've.

seen this, you've had guests on that. talk about this. You've seen what the. government allows when we're in an. epidemic. >> Yeah. Radical measures. >> Radical measures. Not when it comes to. compounds on schedule one. Why? >> Well, because it's federally scheduled. one. It's supposed to have no medical. use whatsoever. >> And the most dangerous and addictive of. compounds. That's right. May I. >> Yeah. >> say something about that. It's a lie.

>> Well, it's certainly a lie. >> Certainly a lie. And I need everybody to hear that. because men and women are dying and. suffering needlessly at the level of an. epidemic. and we're upholding a lie. I think the. problem is politically it's very. difficult to say what you're saying if. you're anyone who is running for office. or anyone who's currently seeking. re-election,

right? Because it carries with this this. taboo, this narrative that has existed. since the 1970s that these are drugs. that are ruining people's lives and it's. a it's going to waste you're just going. to waste away. It's going to you're just. escaping reality. They're for weak. people. They're for losers and addicts. >> Uh you couldn't have summed up uh the. problem better. Nicely done. >> It's a public narrative that's out there.

that unfortunately it's going to take a. long time to turn that battleship. around. So, I think what you're helping with. is that. I am asking for the politicians who. can't speak up to help make safety for. those of us who either can or want to. I am asking for their help because I'm. active law enforcement and I got to tell.

you, Joe, we're muzzled. We are muzzled. Not only are our mouths. shut, but our hearts are put in a cage. >> Like how so? What do you mean? >> We we. law enforcement aspiring to build a. career in the system can't talk about. this stuff. They not only can't talk. about this stuff, they can't do this. stuff. So, so, but what they can do is keep.

their mouth shut until they get to the. point where they put a barrel of their. gun in their mouth. Or they can go buy a. giant bottle of whiskey and drink. themselves into depression. divorce, divorce, divorce, subclinical. depression, anxiety, um disordered eating, um disordered sexual practices, cuz you. know, chronically activated autonomic. nervous system. What does that cause? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn,

hypersexuality. I dropped the last F, right? What does that destroy? >> Destroys everything. It destroys. everything. >> It destroys the human behind the badge, >> right? >> Well, the issue is that police officers. experience trauma on a daily basis that. most people can't even comprehend and. it's not discussed. All that's ever. discussed with police officers is when a. cop does something bad.

>> That's right. Let me paint a picture. based on what you just brought in. There's research out there that says the. amount of critical incident exposure in. an average law enforcement career is. 200. >> 200 murders, suicide, car accidents, >> baby head crushed. >> Yeah. 200. Most civilians have five. Critical incidents send people's lives. sideways. So,

the first responder's nervous system is. a carrier of trauma at a level. unimaginable by most people, which is. what you just brought into this. conversation. And then, so you got the. gasoline, right? And you got the match. They fly off the handle and everyone. acts surprised. How could that happen? How did that officer end up doing that? Because it's a known risk of the job. And you know when we die 5 to 10 years.

after retirement. That's a dirty little. secret. So you strive to get to. retirement. You you carry the dark. underbelly of society and then you die 5. years after you get out. There's no time to wait. Yeah. It's it's an unspoken trauma. It's. an unspoken issue that, you know, was. really exacerbated during this whole. defund the police [ __ ] that was going on.

a few years back. It was then you've got. the demoralization, you know, and the fact that these. people, not only they're not. appreciated, but then they've been all. turned into villains. >> That's right. That's right. It makes it. worse. >> Yeah. I work with some really caring. young people, men and women, and um the. whole defund the police movement was so. hurtful. It was so hurtful. Um. it hurt me watching them have to come to.

work and see them take the 911 calls for. service and show up and do their best. following the rules to make sure that. that family or that person is okay and. then come back and feel unappreciated. and not understood. not understood. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> yeah. They were used as political pawns. >> Yeah. >> And uh you know, openly openly by. politicians who are still in office. It's it was pretty disgusting. >> Yeah. >> And just short-sighted and a complete.

lack of awareness of the difficulty of. the job because if you're around cops, if you know cops, like it is an insane. job. It's an insane job that you're. you're asking people, just regular. people, to go out and do on a daily. basis. >> That's right. That's right. You don't. know what's going to happen. You don't. know who you're interacting with. You. don't know if it's going to turn into a. life or death situation. Um. I see people try to paint the job as a.

normal job and it isn't. And someone's. got to do it right. Someone's got to do. it because it's inherently a part of. human nature at times for confusion to. come through for misunderstanding that. leads to violence to happen. Someone has. to show up and handle that. It's not a. normal job. >> Yeah. So from your first introduction to this.

idea of psychedelic therapy, how long before you actually experience. it and how long before you actually help. other people experience it? >> Okay. So um. >> take us take us through so you you you. find out about this, you bring it. >> to the department. Yeah. >> And what was that like? >> Yeah. Yep. So it was very interesting. I. mean, these were all ideas that weren't. even on my radar until I met Rick at the. Chiefs of Police conference. They get on. my radar and they fire me up because.

this is what I want to do, right? Because of my history, I'm compelled to. step in between waring parties and get. them to stop. Okay, we can touch upon. that if it fits into the conversation. Um, and then MAPS is able to get me into. this research protocol and I'm able to. get permission from my chief to. experience MDMA. I have a I have a. mystical experience. I have a mystical. experience on film. Um, the segment when.

I'm you can't make this up. When I take. the blue pill, you know, Morpheus. >> analogy there. Um, >> you don't want to take the blue pill. I. want to take the red one. >> Is it the red one? >> Yeah, the red one's the one that lets. you see reality. >> Okay. So, I'm flipping the colors. It's. okay. >> The blue one puts you right back at the. standard reality, right? >> And then Yeah. >> Um, but I I experience MDMA on film. It. makes it into Michael Pollen's How to. How to Change Your Mind um docue series, the MDMA episode, right?

>> Um and and I I have a mystical. experience. So now I go back and I'm. like, Chief, you know, uh what what the. hell, right? Our men and women need. access to this. If they need it, they. should have access to it. They still. don't have access. This is where I'm. going. This is where I'm going with. this. You heard about what happened with. the FDA. The p the panel that was supposed to. decide the final step before. medicalization was allowed said no. >> to Rick. >> Yeah. >> Right. Yeah.

>> What they said? They wanted more tests. >> Yes. And and I love that you did that. because I I I tend to have to correct. people. It wasn't a no. They said it. we're going to delay you and we want. another phase three clinical trial. >> Right. >> Right. But some of the things that came. up I want to talk about real quick is. they couldn't make sense of how good the. data was. Like what you're going to use that as as. a reason to not go forward. >> Is that really what they said? >> I I I believe that was part of the. problem.

>> Huh. >> Yeah. I mean we can look this up. >> Um but I believe that was part of the. problem. They also couldn't make sense. of how do you make the prescription a. drug paired with therapy? They couldn't. make sense of the therapy part because. it would be the first prescription of a. drug paired with therapy. That was the. goal. >> This episode is brought to you by. Visible. I want to let you in on. something. Your current wireless carrier. does not want you to know about Visible. because Visible is the ultimate wireless. hack. No confusing plans with surprise.

fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost. With Visible, you get one line wireless. with unlimited data powered by Verizon's. network for $25 a month. Taxes and fees. included. Seriously, $25 a month flat. What you see is what you pay. No hidden. fees on top of that. Ready to see? Join. now and unlock unlimited data for just. $25 a month on the Visible plan. Don't.

think wireless can be so transparent, so. visible? Well, now you know. Switch. today at visible.com/roganogen. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan. features and network management details. Well, there's isn't there also an issue. with doing double blind placeboc. controlled studies because it's very. clear whether or not you've taken the. drug. >> That's right. That's right. So, here's. what I want to ask you about that and I. want to ask a science about that. Is. that a problem with the power and magic. of MDMA or is that a problem with where.

science is? Well, it's a perception problem, right? Because obviously MDMA has profound. impacts on soldiers. The PTSD, the. studies have already been very clear and. MAPS has done an amazing job in. explaining all that. But the problem is. a perception issue, >> okay? And that this drug is also used by. people who go to raves and wind up dying. of heat exhaustion, >> you know, and people die because they. they hear they die of an overdose, which.

really they died of fentinyl poisoning. because they're getting illegally. sourced MDMA, which is probably not even. really MDMA. A lot of times it's. amphetamines and it's cut with fentinyl. and there's a lot of other [ __ ] in it. and they wind up dying of an overdose. >> That's right. Look, you bring up um you. bring up something called the the. challenge of accessing safe supply. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um we need to uh uh people need. to check their drugs. Um because because. the illicit supply is isn't.

standardized. Um it isn't safe. Um. >> well, the real barrier is the fact that. it's illegal. >> That's right. >> The problem is there is a demand. And so. when you have a demand and then you make. it illegal for people to access, then. what happens is outlaws step in and you. get criminal organizations who sell it. and they don't give a [ __ ] about you and. they're used to killing people and they. don't mind poisoning you and they don't. mind if they're selling you something. that's totally not what you're trying to. get. >> That's right. That's right. And you know.

where I learned about this? I think. you'll get a kick out of this. >> Yeah. >> Uh my promotional books, Studying to. Become a Sergeant. >> Really? Yeah, they actually have an. entire section on what prohibition of. alcohol cost. >> And yet nobody applies that to other. substances. >> That's exactly what. >> It's kind of funny. >> It's kind right. >> It's kind of funny. >> Tragically funny. >> Tragically funny. >> And and and here's the muzzle part. Why aren't officers allowed to talk. about this? Why aren't working officers.

allowed to talk about the problems with. the war on drugs and how it's being. waged? Why in America? Really? >> When you say you aren't allowed to, what. how is it because it will hinder your. career? >> I think so. >> Yeah. >> I think it's fear. I think it's. programming. You mentioned the. programming from the Nixon time till. now. Right. >> Yeah. >> This is prohibited stuff. We can't talk. about it, >> right? >> Not only can't we talk about it, but we.

can't think about it because thinking. leads to behaviors. And if those. behaviors are risky, out goes your. career. >> Yes. Well, I think we're in a very. unique time now where the door is open. And um credit to Rick Perry, uh former. Republican governor of Texas who. championed the Ibegan initiative here. And it's now become a thing. They're. going to start doing that, which is. amazing. and so beneficial for soldiers. in particular, people with extreme PTSD.

um and people that are suffering from. severe drug addictions and they don't. understand why and they're just they're. just [ __ ] Um a lot of soldiers and a. lot of, you know, really traditionally. right-wing people are uh getting. involved in psychedelics. They're going. to psychedelic retreats. a lot of other. soldiers that have had positive. experiences and have gotten help are. reaching out to their brothers and. sisters bringing them into these. experiences. >> That's right. >> So, instead of this narrative that um.

psychedelics are for hippies and losers. with no discipline, now you've got some. of the most disciplined human beings on. earth who are seeking these things out. for help. >> That's right. >> And realizing that there is strength in. seeking help. It's it's not a weakness. to take these things. And these things. are not drugs in the sense of something. that allows you to escape reality. They. allow you to see reality through a. completely different lens and that can. heal you. And this is not something that.

has been a narrative before. This this. narrative is very recent. This narrative. particularly among right-wing people, among conservative people, among. disciplined people, hardworking, disciplined people. Now they're. realizing like this is a tool that's. been denied us because of a corrupt. government. a corrupt government that. was seeking to silence the civil rights. movement and the anti-war movement in. the 1970s in the 1960s. This was what. this was all about. And we are still. dealing with this [ __ ]. >> 60 years later, which is really crazy.

>> It is crazy. >> It's [ __ ] crazy. It's so crazy. because we know the facts now. We know. what started it. We know who was. involved. We we we we know the. conversations that they had, why they. did it in the first place. And yet the. public narrative is still the same. The. public narrative is still drug takers or. undisiplined losers who are trying to. escape reality and I don't want my kids. doing drugs and that that same [ __ ] that. you hear over and over and over again. >> That's right. That's right. It's it's.

it's crazy and extremely tragic. Yes. >> And let me let me take that narrative. thread that you just brought in and. let's go all the way back to the times. when the Spanish were colonizing this. country. >> It was actually part of the program to. destroy the medicine and women medicine. men and medicine women wisdomkeepers. um which directly connects I believe to. the war on drugs is. >> that's gone on forever, right? I mean.

that's the Illusinian mysteries. They. the Romans silenced that. You you go to. Siberian shaman, the ro I mean they were. silenced by the the powers that be in. those days. It's just always been the. case where people that take things that. allow them to understand the methods of. control that are being inflicted upon. them and how to escape that. And then. they get a bunch of other people that. follow them and they don't want to. listen to propaganda anymore. And then. people go, "Hey, this is a real problem. What's the cause of this?" Oh, it's.

these [ __ ] dudes go to Illicus and. they figure out life. We got to stop. that. >> That's right. >> Yeah. We got to put a [ __ ] kibash on. that and then they spread all throughout. the world to try to do it. >> There it is. >> And they went into hiding. >> Let's bring that thread all the way to. the present. And I want to see if I can. succeed at making this point. And it it it has now hijacked. law enforcement. It has hijacked law. enforcement and it moves law enforcement. away from protecting and serving life,

liberty, pursuit of happiness in the. First Amendment, religious expression. into industry interest profits. without us us even knowing it. I'm not. pointing a finger at any one law. enforcement professional. I'm. challenging people to wake up to what's. going on because when we kick indoors. and arrest black and brown people for. having a relationship with a plant like. cannabis and charge them and put them in.

a cage and lock them up and they weren't. doing anything violent, we have to ask. who is this hurting? And I'm here to. tell you it's hurting them and us. >> For sure. For sure. Because anyone who's. a law enforcement officer that's. arresting someone for weed, they know. that they're not doing anything good. >> Moral injury. >> Yeah. It's a moral injury on the person. that's actually being forced to. reinforced to enforce those laws. >> That's right. That's right. >> Yeah. Because you you can't feel good. about yourself. You're arresting some.

guy who's got an ounce of weed who's. sitting at home with his wife chilling. That's crazy. And that went on for. decades in this country. Decades. >> Well, it's still happening. only for. somewhere around 40 states have. recreationalized or medicalized. So, we. still have work to do. And if you look. at the drug policy alliance a few years. back, my we could look this up. We're. still arresting in the hundreds of. thousands of people non-violent. marijuana. >> They're trying to go backwards in Texas. Yeah. >> The the lieutenant governor is trying to. go backwards and he's against the. legalization and so they're they're.

trying to ban all THC products and. >> it's completely inappropriate. >> It's not just inappropriate, it's. funded. Okay. Right. It's funded by the. alcohol lobby and they know that they're. losing people from drinking alcohol. >> That's right. The numbers are already. showing it. >> Yeah. >> They're they're building up to a. collapse. People are going to get off. the alcohol. They're not going to be be. able to rely on the profits to be the. same. I agree with you. And then you. know what else? >> Cannabis is such a threat because it's a. medicine that can help with such a broad.

array of symptoms and challenges. What a. threat to pharma. Yeah, it's definitely. that. >> this one plant. This one plant. >> I know. And it's not just a threat to. pharma. I mean, I'm sure you you're. aware of the original reason why it was. outlawed. >> Hit me. >> Okay, >> remind me. >> William Randph Hurst. So, William Randph. Hurst. So, if you go back to the 1930s. when alcohol prohibition ended, you have. a bunch of enforcement officers that.

aren't doing anything anymore. Then you. have William Randph Hurst and then. there's an an a machine an invention. called the decorticator. And the. decorticator allowed them to effectively. process hemp fiber. Hemp was always a. very difficult plant to process. And. when Eli Whitney uh was it Eli Whitney. created the cotton gin? Is that it was. right? >> I think that sounds right. Um when they. created the cotton gin now it cotton. took over for hemp clothing. So.

cannabis, hemp, you know, the term. cannabis, that was what canvas was. So. all paintings, uh, the first draft, the Declaration of. Independence was made on hemp paper. It's a superior textile. It's a superior. paper. It's a commodity. You can take an acre of. land that you're using to grow trees on. that you process into paper and it'll. take you years and years to regrow the.

trees in order to have the same amount. of paper in that area. With hemp, it's. instantaneous almost. It grows very. quickly and within a few months you have. these plants again. You harvest the. stocks, you run it through the. decordicator. So in 19 whatever it was. 1930 something cover of Popular Science. magazine hemp the new billiondoll crop. because of this invention. So this. invention was going to because hemp.

makes superior clothes. I have a hemp. jiu-jitsu ghee that I got from this. company called Datsura. It's [ __ ]. indestructible. My cotton ghees, they. rip apart all the time. They're good for. a year or two and then they tear and you. got to buy a new one or you just show up. at class with a [ __ ] up ghee which a. lot of people do. Hemp geese are way. better. They're just far superior. Hemp. paper. You grab it and you pull out you. tear it. You're like this is crazy. It's. so much stronger than regular paper. It's a superior product. So William. Randph Hurst who didn't just own Hurst.

publications. He didn't just own this. news empire. He also owned paper mills. So he also owned forests that he was. growing trees in. He recognized this. threat from this new industry. And so to. combat that threat, he starts putting. out propaganda pieces. And then they. coined the term marijuana. So marijuana. was originally a term a a slang term for. a wild Mexican tobacco. It had nothing. to do with cannabis. Cannabis which had.

been used for thousands of years and. hemp which had been used for thousands. of years. So then they started printing. these stories that blacks and Mexicans. were taking this new drug and raping. white women. And then you have the. reaper reefer madness films and all. these propaganda films that show young. people taking a smoke of marijuana and. losing their mind. So people act quickly. and they pass laws not even knowing that. they're outlawing hemp, thinking that.

they're stopping this new drug because. most people are unaware of it. Clearly. this is a time before the internet very. difficult to access information and. understand exactly what's going on right. so they hoodwinkedked the entire world. so Harry Annslinger William Randph Hurst. they all conspired to stop a commodity. and that's what hemp was it was a it had. nothing to do with the psychoactive form. of THC it had everything to do with hemp. as a commodity that was threatening to. threat. >> to the businesses.

>> only just business and to this day you. can Make hemp cre. It's a superior. building material. It's flame resistant. It's lighter. It's stronger. It lasts. longer. You can build houses with it. You can make clothes with it. Hemp oil. is hemp seeds. Uh they not only are they. good for you, they contain all the amino. acids. It's a superior protein source. It's like hemp protein powder is. fantastic for you. It's like really good.

stuff in so many different ways. And. they put the kibos on that in the 1930s. and that 90 [ __ ] years later is still. this this anchor around our necks that. we're carrying. >> It's still in place. >> Yeah. One [ __ ] That's right. >> One [ __ ] in the 1930s who didn't want. to compete with hemp and had this. incredible power because he owned the. newspapers. Yeah. >> He started this all. >> That's right. That's right. I'm. tracking. I'm track. >> You ever seen that artic? pull up that.

article, hemp the new billion dollar. crop. Cuz it's wild to watch. >> Yeah. >> Cuz this machine, this decordicator. before that, it was really, it was. brutal backbreaking work to take the. hemp fiber and break it down because. it's such a durable plant. Like if you. ever pick up a hemp stock, a hemp stock. that would, this is a mammoth tusk, but. this is heavy, but if you had a hemp. stock that was this size, it would be. incredibly light like balsa wood, but.

hard like oak. >> It's It's like an alien plant. It's. different than everything else. So, here. it is. >> The new billion dollar crop. American. farmers are promised a new cash crop. with an annual value of several hundred. million dollars. All because of a. machine that has been invented which can. solve a problem more than 6,000 years. old. It is hemp, a crop that will. compete with other American products. Instead, it will displace imports of raw.

materials and manufactured products. produced by underpaid what does that. mean? [ __ ] and peasant labor and will. provide thousands of jobs for American. workers throughout the land. So that was. the machine underneath it. That's the. decorticator and that's this new machine. that they invented. >> And this is what it's all about. It has. nothing to do with marijuana was a real. problem. We were losing people. No, people have been smoking marijuana and. taking marijuana in edible form and you. know the sadus have been taking hashish.

The people have been using it for. thousands and thousands of years without. problems. That's right. >> Can you abuse it? Of course, you can. abuse cheeseburgers, too. >> I was just going to say that. >> Yeah, I don't think you should shut down. Burger King. You should be able to get a. [ __ ] cheeseburger if you want. And. there's a lot of things that people can. abuse. You can abuse every single thing. You can abuse cake. You can abuse. everything. Human beings tend to abuse. things. That doesn't mean that they. shouldn't be allowed to use it. It's. like a hammer. You could build a house. with a hammer or you can hit yourself in. the dick if you're [ __ ] crazy. It. doesn't mean we should outlaw hammers,

right? There is a use for these things. and they it requires discipline and it. requires an understanding of what the. thing is. Well, when you turn that thing. into a schedule one substance when. everybody knows that's not true, especially when you have a schedule one. substance that is illegal when there's. things like alcohol that are totally. legal that I support. You should be able. to drink. I don't I own a bar. I don't. care. I don't drink anymore, but I feel. like you should be able to drink. I. drank for most of my life. Drink if you. want to. I say the same thing about.

>> but it's not good for you. >> Right. Right. It's a depressant that's a. carcinogen. Again, when I also fun, right? It's also fun. Get you tipsy and. I drink. Tips is fun. >> Yeah. >> But but the the point is. >> we need freedom. And you need the. freedom to be able to explore these. things and find out what's right for you. and wrong for you. And you need the. freedom to be able to run studies and. get accurate information in terms of. dosages and side effects and what sort. of genetic issues that certain people. might have that made them that make them.

more inclined to be addicted to alcohol. or addicted to cannabis or whatever. their issue is. Whether it's. psychological or biological, we need to. have information. And to put a blockade. on this in the form of prohibition. >> is stupid. and the fact that we're doing. it in 2025 with all the information that. we have available today. We have an. abundance of information. >> That's right. That's right. Well, look, um I think it was as you as you said, there was intentionality behind what was. done. >> Yeah. >> And when you don't have 50 years of.

creating an evidence base, you have a. weaker argument for decriminalization. And that was intentional. >> Yes, that was intentional. Right, Joe? I. mean, you you brought this up, right? Highly addictive, no known medical use. That's a lie. We can go through the list. of schedule one and we can point out. which one it's a lie about. Which one is. actually anti-addictive? >> You you take psilocybin and you have an. experience with psilocybin, magic. mushrooms, you don't want to drink. >> We don't know why. We h we haven't been.

able to study that, right? I gain, you. want to reprieve from your opioid use. disorder. I got I gain I'll give it to. you three, four, four months. >> Yeah. What's that about? >> Yeah. It's also one experience has an. 80% success success rate. 80% of the. people don't go back to opiates with two. experiences is in the high 90s. >> I I So look, those numbers are. staggering. Science can't make sense of. it. >> Right? >> We're in an epidemic. Well, we got to.

slow down. Watch out for the risks. We. need to study these things more. I can. respect that. But there's harm in not. allowing access to. We got to talk about. that. >> You also have to make sense of it in a. time where things are prescribed and you. can get them for a do from a doctor that. we absolutely know are addictive and. highly damaging and kill people. >> That's right. >> So, make sense of it to me if you're if. there's something Cannabis is the easy. one, right? Because it doesn't kill. anybody. Literally doesn't kill anybody.

The LD50 rate for cannabis is [ __ ]. bananas. That's right. >> You'd have to It's not even physically. possible to consume enough to kill you. >> Same thing with psilocybin. >> Yes. Exactly. There's this research. study. It's at the the. >> You'd have to eat a mushroom the size of. this [ __ ] table. >> You You wouldn't physically be able to. consume it. >> if that even does. >> If that even kill and that's LD50. That. would be 50% of the population would die. of an overdose from that. >> That's right. >> And you wouldn't be able to consume it. physically. You wouldn't be able to fit. it into your body enough to kill you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And then on top of that, Joe, we have the federal government. giving permission to certain groups of. people to access plants, cacti, fungi, animal secretions with permission and. not others under a religious context. >> Right? >> So, is it dangerous? Is it not? >> Right? >> Is it a sacred sacrament? Is it not? >> Right? >> Is it a medicine? Brazilian churches.

that are taking Iawasa. >> Right. Yeah. Right. And again, >> like we're talk we talk I don't want to. talk poorly about alcohol. I drink. alcohol. I'm not talking poorly about. these people should go get their rights. Right. Yes. Or more power to them. But. you can't have it both ways. Not them. I'm talking to the government. >> Right. You have to make logical sense as. to why you're imposing these laws and. then imprisoning people and taking away. their freedom for not listening to you. >> That's right. because you don't make any.

sense. And here's another part of the. problem. A vast majority of the people. that are. >> pushing for these laws and want these. people to be locked up have not had. these experiences themselves. And that's. a part of the problem. >> They don't know what they're talking. about. They don't know what these. experiences are. >> That's right. That's right. >> These drugs are going to ruin your mind. Are you [ __ ] sure? Cuz I don't think. they are. I don't think you're correct. I think they open your mind up to new. possibilities and expand your.

consciousness in a way that I don't. think is available without them. >> I agree. It isn't available without. them. And that's was intentionally. blocked out. So, you know, the the we're. hearing the stories about the the the. really brilliant tech people, right? You. dig deep enough, they've had some. experiences with these things. >> Yeah. A large number of them and still. do a large number of them, >> right? Yeah. So these things that are so. dangerous. >> um or are we blocking up certain. blocking out certain groups from having. access and this is one of my primary.

things that I try to talk about. I want. the audience that's in law enforcement. >> to go why why is this the case? Why do I. feel uncomfortable not talking about. this? Why do I feel uncomfortable saying. that this sergeant who might be hurting. needs access? Say it. Bring it up. Talk. >> right. >> Go into your power. But people are. scared of losing their career, right? >> Imagine. >> Yeah. >> For talking about something. >> and losing their career because most. people are ignorant of it.

>> That's right. >> Yeah. >> That's right. >> And the only way that that's going to. change is you and I and other people to. continue to have these public. conversations where more people hear it. And there's I guarantee you there's. people listening to this right now that. have never heard this before, never. considered this before, and am I wrong? Do I have these deep held beliefs that. are completely ignorant? And why why do. I have these beliefs? What's what. started them? Why why why do I have this. in my mind as this is what this stuff. is? >> Exactly.

>> And there's a lot of people out there. that are stone cold sober disciplined. people think that's the only way. This. is the way. >> That's right. That's right. And you know. what? Maybe m may this is the way. That's your way. Yeah. >> We're human beings. We're called to. create an artistic expression of a. unique life. To me, that's what the. divine is commanding. That's what the. divine gets to experience. The more of. us who get to live and be our authentic. selves internally and expressing them.

outwardly, the more the divine gets to. experience unique difference. Well, the more possibilities there are. for creativity, the more possibilities. there are for people to rethink their. lives, go get on a better path, there's. a lot that people are missing just. because you've been hoodwinkedked and. you've been led into this false. narrative that. >> That's right. >> that all that's also the there's a. problem with the term drugs because just. I hear drug, I hear drugged. I hear.

someone who's all [ __ ] up and doesn't. know what's going on. How are you. putting all these things under the same. blanket, including nicotine and caffeine. and things that people use on a daily. basis? These are all drugs. That's. right. And then you have cannabis in. there. And you also have methamphetamine. in that category. How do you have. cannabis and methamphetamine in the same. thing? How do you have psilocybin and. heroin in the same group of things? Like. that's these This is crazy. >> That's right. That's right. >> How do you have industrial opiates?

>> Yeah. Yeah. You're all in that same. category. We've been stripped of our. power to define what medicine is. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Have you heard people say. >> community is medicine? >> Joy is medicine. >> Oh, yeah. For sure it is. >> Right. Yeah. >> Well, ask a hardcore western science. model, is that medicine? And they'd go, well, you got to show us the evidence. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Well, there is evidence that like. loneliness is like worse than cigarette.

smoking. >> That's right. >> In terms of like how long you live. That's right. >> Yeah. >> That's right. Well, we can show that, right? But is community medicine? I say. it is. >> Yeah. >> But this the point I'm trying to make is. how did we lose the power to define what. medicine is for ourselves? >> Yeah. >> Right. Joy is medicine. >> Community is medicine. >> And there's the right. >> maybe the term medicine is the wrong. term. Maybe is good for you. >> Sure. >> But but but why define medicine in such. a rigid way? Also, why only allow one.

methodology to create an evidence base. for that medicine? Let me give you an. example, okay? >> And this is Paul Stamuts. I I listened. to him talk at psychedelic science 2025. where he said we should see the world. through two eyes. >> Western science and indigenous wisdom, right? And they don't have to be. attacking one another. >> Right. >> Right. The time of extractionary. capitalistic relationships with this.

living planet might have to be coming to. an end. And what's going to replace it? Reciprocity, stewardship, care, community. >> Yeah. >> Right. These two eyes, they need to be. in the same being. They need to work. just really makes you wonder what would. the world look like had they not placed. that sweeping psychedelic act of 1970. and then imposed those standards on most. of the rest of the world as well. What. what would the world look like? It would.

be radically different. >> I believe that it would be radically. different, >> right? It was well this is what they. were scared of. The difference between. the 1950s and the 1960s culturally is. clear. It's evident in everything. It's. evident in the music. It's evident in. the artwork, the films. It's evident in. the cars, the design of the automobiles. Like everything changed and it changed. because the culture was accepting. psychedelics. It was a big part of it. It was LSD and psilocybin and marijuana.

and all these different things these. people were experimenting with. And then. out of that, you get Jimmyi Hendris. You. know, you get this wild new form of. expression that was radically different. than music that appeared before that. >> That's right. That's right. They're. scared of that. >> That's right. And you know, I just made. a comment about my belief system to you. Who gets to experience and be with that. or in that and of that? That's the. divine. That's Jimmyi Hendris outside of. the box. >> Yeah. >> Right. That level of artistic.

expression. I think that's our purpose. >> Yeah. >> Right. And you're right. We took that. away. We pushed it into the underground. and then we hijacked our law enforcement. to show up as enforcers. Yeah. >> Kick indoors and take people to cages. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Members of our own community. >> That's right. And who did we hurt? Our. community and our law enforcement. So, this is what I want to be clear on here. >> I want law enforcement to ask why. Why? Why are we in this current moment? Why.

are we still arresting people for. wanting a relationship with plants, cacti, fungi, animal secretions? Why are. we protecting and serving our community. members or industry interests? When you. start asking these questions, think. shake. >> Yeah, >> for me they did. They made me into an. activist. Not only an advocate, but an. activist. So, I got behind Massachusetts. ballot question 4 in a very public way. >> What is that? >> That was to decriminalize the. psychedelics and create healing centers.

in Massachusetts. 43 44% of adults voted. yes, but it wasn't enough. Wasn't. enough. Well, listen to what I just. found out before I came to your show. today. Um, the the Psychiatric Society. of Massachusetts just endorsed or got. behind three psilocybin bills. They. didn't get behind the ballot question, which failed, but they're now getting. behind decriminalizing. psilocybin measures that are at the.

state house. >> Well, that's great. It's great. >> Yeah. Progress is being made. I mean, it. happens at a snail's pace and it happens. through backbreaking labor from people. like you and Paul Steammits and Rick. Doblin and and so many more who are who. are doing the Lord's work literally. But. this is it's just a frustrating thing. for a lot of people that know the truth. behind this that how many people it can. help and then how many people who are. being damaged by these unfair, unjust, immoral, and illogical laws. >> There they are. That's right. That's.

right. Yeah. And if we bend it, if we. bend it, if you take on one end the. enforcers, right, which I believe are. called to be peace officers and. guardians, and the other end the. civilians, which are being split up into. groups and pitted against one another, and you bend them, everybody's getting. hurt and trauma load is exponentially. growing. >> Yeah. >> Exponentially growing. And what does the. media like to put out there? Not media. like this, but standard media. The. algorithm is based on hate, fear,

division, isolation. >> Well, the algorithm is based on your. interaction. And unfortunately, people. tend to lean towards those things. >> Yeah, >> that's the problem. The algorithm is not. evil. The the problem is human beings. can be easily manipulated by their own. ideas and these ideas that they have and. these this inclination to pay more. attention to things that outrage you. >> and fear, right?

>> Things that cause rage and fear and and. and. distrust the unfortunately things that. you hate is those are the things you pay. attention to the most. >> That's right. That's right. I mean, we're biologically created to worry. about things that we fear. >> Right. Right. And logically, I'll give. you an example from my community. I. think about this all the time. There's. about 20 25,000 people in my community. Every day, they wake up, they go to. work, they interact with one another, and go to bed. 20 25,000. people with one or two issues that the.

cops have to go to. That's amazing. People are wildly nice. >> Yeah. For the most part, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And in control and okay. And. >> Yeah. But the problem is cops deal with. the very small percentage of people that. aren't. >> There it is. >> Yeah. >> There's this research article called the. clinician's delusion. I call it the. enforcers delusion where your. perspective gets completely warped based. on the people that you continually. interact with. >> So when you're continually showing up.

and helping people in their worst. moment, you think everybody's their. worst moment all the time. >> Of course. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's a that that's a box. That's a. dark box, a lonely, terrible box to be. in. >> And to. require officers to be able to escape. that and have objectivity is crazy. >> Like how how through what mechanism of. the human mind allows you to ignore all. the evidence that you see on a daily.

basis? >> Your evidence. Right. Right. Right. Personal experience. That critical. incident uh uh amplified. data set. >> Right. your that that activated nervous. system, it actually makes you rely on. your biases more. instead of being able to check your. biases. It it it actually listens to. your biases more. So So an officer now. is taught try to slow down if you can. Why? So you can breathe. Why? So you can.

check your bias before you act. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Because you're amped up, >> right? The quicker you act, the safer. you'll be, >> right? >> And that's through that automatic. process near the brain stem, >> right? >> Not here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a dark. predicament, you know, because there's a lot of. people that are going to fall victim. before anything gets changed. >> I agree. I agree. And and you know, Joe, when um back to that FDA committee that.

um delayed everything with MDMA, um I. ended up really really sad for like. three months because of what you just. said. A lot of people who will benefit. from MDMA are not going to be able to. access not access not for a month or. two, for years. for years. >> at a cost. that could hurt a person like Rick. Doblin and MAPS and and Leos and the the.

philanthropists that help them get to. this point. That's how expensive it is. >> Yeah. And then the cost of human life. >> And the cost of human life. >> is compounded every year. >> That's right. >> And all the people they interact with. and the butterfly effect of that. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> That's right. And let's let's take that. thread back to what you said. Could you. imagine the world we could live in if. these things were available to people so. that they could heal, so that they could. dream, so that they could become their. own versions of Jimmyi Hendris.

>> Yeah. >> You know, >> I know it's it's really crazy when you. think about it that one president and. one administration. changed the course of civilization. because they wanted control and they. wanted to stop the anti-war movement and. the civil rights movement. And that's. the fact. That's really what happened. And I like that statement, course of. civilization because they succeeded at. taking it on a road show into other. countries. >> Yeah. >> Through international treaties. >> Yes. >> You know, this brings something up. Um I.

was blessed with being able to go and. speak on a panel at the United Nations. and it was put together by an. organization called LEAP, Law. Enforcement Action Partnership. I want. to give a shout out to Diane Goldstein, amazing executive director of a. wonderful organization of law. enforcement that are trying to change. these issues. And we spoke about access. for psychedelics. for law enforcement. And I was able to. call out schedule one at the United. Nations at the CND, Commission on.

Narcotic Drugs, and say we need to do. away with the schedule. And here's the. two things that I found out I wanted to. get to this point. The World Health. Organization has now recognized that. schedule one is a fraud. It's fake. It's. unscientific. They're going to try to. create their own, right? And two, I got. to see how they spend all day on a. treaty focusing on one word across like. 40 countries, whether they agree on that. one word or not. And. >> what was the word?

>> Um, make up a word. Um, are they going. to allow harm reduction into the treaty? all day. 12 hours later, they're asking. this country if it's okay and that. country if it's okay. I went, "Oh my. god, you said snails pace." I think you. said snail's pace. >> This is even slower than a snail's pace. >> It's painful. >> Yeah. >> Change. having it happen is painful.

It's incredible. >> Yeah. It's. Well, it's what happens when people once. once people in have laws and they. enforce those laws and. someone comes along and says those laws. are unjust. It's very difficult to get. back rights that you've already lost. Very difficult once they're lost. Like, and this is like what's really obvious. about the 1970s schedule one act because. it's like we're we're dealing with the.

same issue all these years later, but. it's not the 1970s, right? So we have. all the access to the data now. instantaneously. You could pull it up on. chat GPT. >> Yeah. >> You know, like right now, instantaneously. So there's no excuse. for it. But yet it's still difficult to. get these laws changed. Insanely. difficult. It takes so much time. >> Well, so the system that we have takes. the power and then it doesn't want to. give it back. This is what I'm hearing.

Yeah. >> And then you've got to fight to give it. back. But you did indicate something. which I agree with. Things are speeding. up. >> Yeah. >> Because of technology. I mean, technologies involved in this show and. us being able to talk to each other, >> right? This is a miracle in and of. itself. >> People being able to share ideas at a. lightning pace, influencing one another. >> Yeah, >> that's a miracle in and of itself. >> But I want to bring up a point. Maybe we. can explore this together. Um people are. taking back their power and recognizing.

that the founding documents of this. country are designed to protect the. life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and. religious expression of the individual. human being. It's the most radical thing. ever. >> Yeah, it is. >> It's it it's it's a sacred establishment. that we're working under. But people. don't realize that the individual when. they truly sincerely believe what. they're doing in this country, they can.

do it as long as it doesn't harm another. human being. It's that simple. >> Yeah. That's what it should be. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about that. How do we get to. the point where people realize that. that's the way it should be? We wake the enforcers up. We get the politicians to help create. safe space for the exploration of these. topics. We meet up in conversation and break.

bread and safety. >> Well, I think the the big thing is. public perception. Public perception. moves all those other things because. then people will contact politicians and. respond by not voting for them or voting. people out that do have like this. lieutenant governor. He's politically in. deep water because so many people have. reacted so negatively to this this. draconian attempt to ban all THC.

products where people like why like what. are you doing and what are you being. paid by? Like what what lobbies are. enforcing this idea? Like what where is. this coming from? >> Right. Right. So it's going to weaken. his position. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I. >> Well, it's going to weaken weaken his. career and rightly so. Rightly so. It. should. He's on the wrong side of. history. >> There it is. There it is. >> Yeah. And the public perception has. changed. It's changed pretty radically. And I I credit the internet with that. because over the last 20 years, you've. seen this massive shift in this idea.

that psychedelics are dangerous. You. could lose your mind to, hey, that's how. my uncle quit smoking, you know. Hey, that's how my aunt got off of opiates. Hey, that's, you know, and everyone. knows somebody that's had positive. experiences that was, you know, deeply. depressed and now is a different person. and they're they're so much happier and. healthier because of it. And so, it's. the the narrative publicly has shifted. >> has shifted. >> and a lot of it is because of. conversations and a lot of it is because. of podcasts, a lot of it is access to.

information. There's plenty of online. documentaries about it now. >> That's right. That's right. And you. know, uh, Joe, I I want to give credit. to the courageous people who are the. carriers of this knowledge and wisdom by. experimenting, learning, realizing, right? This is the. hero's journey, right? Going into the. darkness like metaphorically and. literally into the underground and. coming back with the bounty, the. realization, right? The gold and sharing. it. >> Yeah. And having the courage to share.

That's a courageous act. >> Well, especially if you're in a business. like yourself like law enforcement, you. know, where it's like that's a forbidden. topic. >> That's right. That's right. That's. right. And, you know, um um I was able. to access MDMA. and um I had a numinous experience. I. felt like I was surrounded by love. I. was gifted a gratitude that was big. enough to hold everything that went into. who I am in the present moment. Let me. explain that real quick. If I accept myself wholly, wholly.

completely, I have to accept my light. and dark aspect as well. I have to. accept my traumas as well. I have to. expect my lineage's history as well in. its entirety. I'm not saying something. radical. There's been books written. about this by smarter people than I. MDMA helped me access that, right? I've. experienced ketamine. Ketamine, I say, was like a luscious massage of my soul. I felt like the energy of my being was.

traveling in and out of my body. And I. had three energetic streams traveling. with me. My martial arts instructor. periodically, my wife, and God on. ketamine. It was unable. >> What do you mean streams? Like in what. way? >> Energetic streams. So on ketamine, I. felt like there was a bit of a. disembodiment that occurred, right? And. we can label what that disembodiment is. It's a a disassociative anesthetic.

People say it feels like their spirit, soul, or identity disconnected from. their body. I had that happen. But the. energy wasn't just one. I had. remembrances of these three. I felt like. I needed to give gratitude to God. I. felt like the presence of my wife was. with me and my martial arts instructor. as well, Dorene Kaggleandro. And her. energetic, their energetic streams were.

going in and out of my body. And I could. remember such joyous thoughts associated. to them. It was like a massage to my. spirit, you know, and the thoughts associated. with that massage and that peace and. that sense of safety. was there. Ketamine lifts suicidality in. minutes. It just became a medicine approved for. depression. Why? That's weird. Why did. that just happen? I don't know. >> Well, it's been going on for quite a.

bit, right? I mean, I know people in Los. Angeles were doing it a decade ago. >> Well, here's the thing. Let's let's. broaden that. How long were the people. partying with it, right? >> I don't know. I did I knew of a guy who. had a problem with it. He was a MMA. fighter. He got addicted to ketamine. And I remember a friend of mine went to. visit him in a rehab center and he was. all [ __ ] up. But that was the. narrative that he was doing ketamine. I. was like, "Oh, he's doing a. tranquilizer.". >> Like this was uh 1990s, late late 90s.

>> Okay. >> Well, you can get addicted. >> Ketamine is addicted. You can get you. can get addicted to ketamine. Not like. like an opiate. >> Is it a psychological addiction or is it. a physical addiction? >> There might be a combination. I don't. want to purport to speak about it. scientifically too much, but I've heard. that can be a compulsion to use it and. it can kind of it can hurt your bladder. if you go overboard. >> I know a lot of people in the Austin. area use it recreationally. We actually. had a girl go into a khole at my club.

>> Mhm. >> She was in the middle of the comedy club. just. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's full. disembodiment, right? You're in another. place. >> and your somatic self has to be kept. They're doing a nasal spray. So, they're. like doing it throughout the day. >> That's the prescription. >> I forget from what company for. depression. >> H. >> Yeah. >> So, you could kind of double pump and. >> for sure. >> go a little overboard. Yeah. Do it all. day long if you want. >> If you wanted to. >> Yeah. That's a problem with Well, that's.

a problem with everything, right? You. know, it's a problem with any m I mean, >> if you really need aderall, you have. like chronic fatigue and aderall is the. only thing that lifts you out of that. What's to stop you from taking two. pills? >> I'm glad you did that. Three pills. That's right. Or even even coffee, right? I double espresso can become a. quad. Yeah. Then you're drinking six. >> Oh, I know a lot of people are addict. I. mean, I'm kind of addicted to caffeine. Yeah. >> I quit it when I was on my vacation. I. was on vacation for 10 days and I didn't. have any coffee, any caffeine at all for. five, six days. And I was like, "Oo, I.

sleep so much better. I feel so much. better." But I feel like when it comes. to conversations, it's like I lean on. it. I lean on caffeine. Yeah, >> lean on it to get me going. >> I'm a happier person on caffeine. I. really enjoy that substance. >> I like it. I just wanted to know that I. could stop taking it and it wouldn't be. any problem. It was no problem at all. >> Yeah, >> I stopped taking nicotine pouches and I. stopped taking caffeine for I stopped. the nicotine pouches for 10 whole days. and I was like, I'm fine. And I stopped. the caffeine for five or six days. Then. I said, "Ah, I feel like having a cup of. coffee." And I I limited myself to one.

cup a day. >> Yeah, I I get uh I have a hard time. coming off of caffeine. Um, but but I've. done it. Yeah, I get headaches. It. affects my mood a little bit. >> Um, I like I like it. I like the. caffeine. >> Yeah. I don't think it's overall. detrimental. I don't think it affects. your judgment. I don't think it makes. you do anything squirrely, you know? It. just gives you a little It peps you up a. little bit. >> I mean, most of the world is having it. in the morning. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then most of the world is. having a drink at night. >> Yeah. But, you know, this is also the.

argument for cocoa leaves because cocoa. leaves apparently is a superior. stimulant. It's just they chew it and. they chew cocoa leaves. And this is. something that, you know, farmers and. hardworking people in South America have. been doing forever. >> That's right. >> And unfortunately, somebody figured out. how to synthesize it and turn it into. cocaine and then it became illegal. >> Illegal. >> Yeah. Now you can't get cuz if you get. just cocoa leaves and just chew on cocoa. leaves in America, I mean, maybe that's. superior to coffee. >> And we don't know cuz we can't try.

>> Exactly. >> And that that is the block of. experimentation. Yeah. That's unjust. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um, you know what's interesting. about cocaine is. >> it's medically appropriate. I think they. use it for eye surgery, >> right? >> Yeah. There's medical uses for it. >> So, I I I I can't off the top of my head. remember if it's on schedule one. I. don't think it is. >> Cocaine is not on schedule one really. >> I mean, we could look it up because. Well, here's the thing. If it can be.

used for eye surgery, >> right? >> Right. So, it would be interesting to see. >> Yeah. So, is it like a numbing agent? Is. that what it is? >> They've just I've heard that they've. realized before it was um it became a. big issue that it's safe for eyeball. Yeah. >> Numbing numbing agent. >> Well, I know there's medical cocaine. I. do know that. I just don't know what the. applications are. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. You know, the number one uh. manufacturer of it, Coca-Cola. >> Coca-Cola. >> Yeah.

They still use the cocoa leaf for flavor. for co Coca-Cola, but. >> like they shut down the cocaine molecule. somehow. >> They extract it and they use it to. produce medical grade cocaine. >> Interesting. And and then and then some. thing of that still gets into. >> the flavor is what's in co I guess it's. the flavonoids. That's what's in. Coca-Cola. >> And it used to be cocaine was in. Coca-Cola. >> Yeah. I would like to go back and try. some of that. I like to go like what was.

that like? Like how much cocaine was in. there? >> You think they have original recipe coke. bottles at the factory. >> with cocaine? >> At cocoa. >> I mean what year was that. >> headquarters? What year did they Let's. find out what year they took cocaine out. of Coca-Cola. because I remember the whole story for I. don't remember exactly the details of. like how cocaine was in Coca-Cola for. the first place but cocaine used to be. prescribed 1929.

So 1903 fresh cocoa leaves were removed. from the formula. After 1904, instead of. using fresh cocoa leaves, Coca-Cola. started using spent leaves, the. leftovers of the cocaine extraction. process with trace levels of cocaine. And since then, by 1929, they've used. cocaine free. So in 1903, they started. removing cocaine, >> but they're but but they're still using. cocaine free cocoa leaf extract.

>> Yes. Yes. And they're the only company I. believe that's allowed to do that. I. think they're grandfathered in. And how. did who invented CocaCola with cocaine? Find that out. Like what's the story? What is the story of cocaine in. Coca-Cola? Okay. Peton called for 5 ounces of cocoa. leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant. dose. In 1891, Candler claimed his. formula altered extensively from.

Petton's originally contained only a. tenth of this amount. So, it used to be. really juicy. Coca-Cola once contained. an estimated 9 milligrams of cocaine per. glass. For comparison, a typical dose or. line of cocaine is 50 to 75 milligrams. So, it was like a a mild pickme up, 9. milligrams. After 1904, instead of using. fresh leaves, Coca-Cola started using. spent leaves. Today that extract is. prepared at a Stefen company, Stean. company plant in uh Maywood, New Jersey.

The only manufacturing plant authorized. by the federal government to import and. process cocoa leaves which which it. obtains from Peru and Bolivia. Uh Stan. Company extracts cocaine from the leaves. which it sells to Malanch, the only. company in the United States licensed to. purify cocaine for medical use. >> For medical use. There it is. Wild. >> They call it here in the ad says it's. in, excuse me, intellectual beverage. >> Ah, intellectual beverage. >> Valuable brain tonic.

>> A valuable brain tonic. A cure for all. nervous afflictions, affections, sick, headache, neurologica, whatever that is, hysteria, melancholy, etc. The particular or peculiar flavor. of Coca-Cola delights every pallet. It. is dispensed from the soda fountains in. the same manner as any of the fruit. syrups. Wow, >> what an advertisement. >> Wow. I'd like to go back and try that. I.

like to go back to 1900 and get a glass. and see what's up. >> You hear the pop and the bubbly poured. over ice right out of the fountain. >> Yeah. What was that? >> Oh, that's a beautiful advertisement. Wow. Long after syrup ceased to contain. any significant amounts of cocaine in. North Carolina, dope remained a common. colloquialism for Coca-Cola. And dope. wagons were trucks that transported it. Wow. >> Must have been good. >> It must have been real good. Must have. been real good. Like a just a little bit.

of a juice. The cola nut. Cola nuts for. caffeine. Cola nut acts as a flavoring. and the original source of caffeine. Coca-Cola contains 2 to 3.5% caffeine. and has a bitter flavor. In 1911, the US. government sued the United States versus. 40 barrels and 20 kegs of Coca-Cola, hoping to force the Coca-Cola Company to. remove caffeine from its formula. Interesting. That's interesting. Court. found the syrup when diluted as directed.

would result in a beverage containing. 1.21 grains, 78.4 4 milligrams of. caffeine per eight flu ounces. The case. was decided in favor of Coca-Cola. Company at the district court, but. subsequently in 1912, the US Pure Food. and Drug Act was amended, adding. caffeine to the list of habit forming. and delletterious substances which must. be listed on a product's label. In 1913, the case was appealed by the sixth. circuit in Cincinnati where the ruling.

was affirmed but then appealed again in. 1960 1916 to the Supreme Court where the. government effectively won as a new. trial was ordered. The company then. voluntarily reduce the amount of. caffeine in its product and the and. ordered offered rather to pay the. government's legal cost to settle and. avoid further litigation. >> Wow, that was over caffeine. millig per. eight and now it's 46 per 12. >> Yeah, but like what is a Red Bull?

>> I was going to say what's in a Monster, >> right? >> So, let's let's find out how much. caffeine is in a Monster. One of the. things that Monster I don't know if. Monster does it, but some of these. companies do it. It's kind of tricky. By. the way, I like Monster. I drink them. all the time when I do the UFC. Um the. the problem is it'll say like two. servings. >> Who's splitting a Monster with their. friends? It's like I'm going drink half. You have some. >> 86. >> 86. >> per serving. >> Yeah. And how many servings are in a can.

of Monster? >> Uh, well, this just says. >> per serving. >> Does it say it in a can? Like when you. get a big old can? >> I mean, just when I Googled it, it just. said one serving. >> cuz they have big cans. Yeah, this is a. jumbo size. >> I had a friend who was a Mormon and he. wasn't allowed to drink coffee and that. [ __ ] would pound energy drinks. all day. I was like, "Hey, dude, what. are you doing?". >> It's a gray area in the room. >> 140. A monster is oh my god. 140 for zero sugar. A regular monster.

has 160. 160. Mountain Dew Rise has 180. >> That's incredible. >> Beyond raw lit. >> That has 250. >> Bang with 300. >> 5 hour energy shots as 200. Holy [ __ ]. man. Those little tiny energy shots. Those five hour energy drinks has 200. milligrams of caffeine. >> Wow. Bang has 300. Holy [ __ ] man.

>> And CocaCola led the battle. When was. that? 1911 or something. Those days. about caffeine amount being in it. >> Interesting. Well, it's like people have. always tried to control other people. For whatever reason, especially when the. government has the power to do it. For. whatever reason, human beings really. enjoy controlling other people. Yeah, they really do. And once they have. power, they really enjoy exercising that. power. >> and keeping it and controlling it and. not giving it back. And you got to you.

got to h you got to resist. >> Yeah, you do. >> Resist. >> You got to resist. >> But the problem is like legalizing these. things would cause a pro a big problem. It'd be a big problem if you just. legalize them. There's a lot of people. that who would never try any illegal. drug who would try a legal drug. You. know, if you made heroin, cocaine, you know, fill in the blank, all all the. different. substances, psychedelic and otherwise,

if you made them all legal, you're going. to have a bunch of people that are going. to have problems with these things that. wouldn't have problems with them. normally. So there would be a period of. time where it would cause damage and. that would be really problematic for. politicians, lawmakers, anybody who. enforced these ideas, you know, they'd. be blood is on your hands. It's like but. this. infidilization of human beings like. turning them into babies that need be. need to be controlled by the state.

That's the problem. And we're in this. problem and the only way to get out of. that problem is to tear the [ __ ]. band-aid off. And I completely agree. with you. >> And I don't want to do cocaine. I've. never done cocaine my whole life. I saw. when I was a kid in high school, I saw a. bunch of people that had cocaine. problems and I was like, I don't want to. have anything to do with that. >> Right. Right. But listen, you made that. decision for yourself. >> Yeah. >> Right. And um and look, we know we we. were just touching upon examples of. people having a relationship with the. cocoa plant without it causing an issue. >> Yeah. I don't think it's that addictive.

when you're just chewing the leaves. >> I think those people do it without much. problems. There's also mate de cocoa, which is a tea that they make from the. leaves. >> Well, look, we're starting to talk about. um we're using the word legalization and. say saying there will be a problem with. legal legalization for a time being. Why. don't we talk about decriminalization. and regulation? >> But the problem is even with. decriminalization, what's the supply? Where are people getting it from? >> Right? >> If you can't sell it legally, then how.

how do I know it's pure? >> That's right. >> That's the real issue. The real issue. with cocaine is probably not cocaine. itself. The real issue is getting. cocaine that's stepped on and cut and. cut a lot of times with fentinel. I. mean, we all know people that have died. from fentanyl overdoses. I know a bunch. of people that have. >> Yep. I I've done followup on police. calls to people who said to me directly, "I was trying to get Coke. I got. fentinel and almost died." That's a. tragedy. But but but but Joe, you're.

jump into this next uh idea that we. should probably explore which is called. um safe supply. >> Yeah. >> And who should control safe supply? But. let me remind our audience and let me. bring this back into the conversation. Our police promotional books, we're not we're not we're not talking. radical here. Our pro police promotion. books talk about the problem with. prohibition and criminalization. unleashing gangsters and dangerous. supply on our civilians.

>> And that's where the cartels come into. play. >> Exactly. >> Look, when we were kids, the cartels. weren't an issue. >> That's right. >> Do you ever remember any talk of the How. old are you? >> I'm 48. I grew up in Chelsea, Mass. >> I'm almost 58. I I grew up in Newton. I. didn't ever hear about cartels. >> That's right. >> You never heard about Mexican cartels. You never heard about the problem. Now. it's like all over the news. It's a big. thing. Why is it a big thing? Cuz they. control the drug supply into the United. States because drugs are illegal. So. only outlaws sell drugs.

>> And what happens with value when you. make something illegal? >> Yeah. Shoots through the roof. Yeah. >> That's right. And the most violent. >> come in and replace the less violent. >> Exactly. >> You know, >> just like during prohibition when the. mob took over. >> That's right. >> That's how they gained power. That's how. they got money. They were selling. alcohol. And what so what's safe or or a. safe use room? I would purport to say. that a bar is a safe use room. >> Yeah. >> Where you can get safe supply, >> right? Yeah. You know, you're getting. actual real alcohol. >> That's it.

>> Uh and how about we incorporate treating. adults like adults? >> Yeah. >> Powerful education. and decide who's going to control safe. supply because right now the most. dangerous people on earth control it. >> Yes. And I think education, what you. just said is a huge part of it. And to. let people understand like, hey, everyone knows there's giant problems. with alcohol use. There's alcoholism, there's liver failure. There's a host of. different diseases that come from being. an alcoholic. And then there's also.

operating motor vehicles when you're. drunk. And drunk driving kills a ton of. people every year. And also a bunch of. violent acts that get perpetrated by. people that are drunk. There's a lot of. things wrong with alcohol. But yet we. allow alcohol, you know, and alcohol is. one of the worst drugs. It's one of the. worst drugs for you physically. >> Yeah. >> It's one of the only drugs that if you. become addicted to it, you can't quit. cold turkey or you'll [ __ ] die. >> That's right. Right then and there.

Exactly. So, working with this logic, Joe, right? Cuz people sometimes make me. out to be out of my mind when I say this. stuff. >> Of course. If the most dangerous, toxic, and carc carcinogenic is available and. the least dangerous, helpful, non-addictic is not available, let's fix. that. >> Yeah. >> Why do I sound wild when I say that? >> Yeah. Well, I think the mushroom one is. the easiest one because of the fact that. it it genuinely can't kill people.

Cocaine is a lot harder cell because. also like I don't necessarily think it's. good for you. But I know people that. have done pure cocaine that really. enjoyed the experience and didn't get. addicted to it. So I don't I don't I. can't speak on that. I just don't I just. think that things that are physically. addictive that have been known to ruin. your life are things you should probably. avoid. >> And we can teach upon that. Yes. And we. can educate upon that. I mean, look at. the the the wonderful job we've done at. uh kind of putting the reinss on. nicotine.

>> through advertisement and education. >> Well, cigarette smoking in particular, because the problem isn't really the. nicotine, which we've found to be. >> That's right. >> Yeah. It's like nicotine actually has. health benefits to it, which sounds. crazy to people. It's a neuroprotectant. >> that it it it actually stop people from. getting COVID. There's a lot of weird. stuff with the compound nicotine. Yeah. But then there's the delivery method and. it's not even just like it's hard to. know what's true or what's not true, but.

I'm sure you saw that uh Russell Crow. movie, The Insider. >> I haven't. >> It's a great movie. But it's about these. companies that added chemicals to. cigarettes to make them far more. addictive. And he was a whistleblower. He was a chemist that was working at. this company. Russell Crow was playing. this doctor who was a real guy whose. life was threatened because he exposed. that these companies had put a bunch of. different chemicals into cigarettes to. make them highly addictive, much more.

addictive than just plain regular. tobacco smoking. >> Well, it uh I was told that th those. scientists were absorbed into the food. industry. >> Yeah. Well, that's the problem is that. the the companies that were getting sued. after it was determined that cig. cigarette smoking does cause cancer, cigarettes are addictive, once they lost. a bunch of money, they went out and. bought all the processed food companies. and now they made those more addictive. And so now, like, you know, they even.

openly flaunted, I bet you can't eat one. chip. >> That's right. That's right. Try. >> bet you can't eat a try. Open a bag of. Doritos. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, that's the the thing. And. again, I think you should be able to eat. Doritos. I like them. They're delicious. >> Same. Yeah. >> Nothing wrong with them. But they are. addictive. And why are they addictive? Because they're they're chemically. designed to be addictive. >> That's right. >> Cuz these food manufacturing companies. want you to buy more of them. Simple. It's like, how do we get people to eat. more chips? Make the chips impossible to. put down or very difficult to put down.

>> And if you want to increase their value. through the roof, prohibit access after. they've tasted them and let the cartels. produce them in another country. and try. to get them across the border to sell to. our people. >> You're going to get fentinel potato. chips. >> That's right. >> Which is so crazy. Imagine if they. outlawed all processed foods and you had. to get [ __ ] contraband Twinkies. Like, >> good lord. >> Right. >> Like, yeah. I I think you should be able. to buy ringings. They should be legal. But I I wouldn't recommend eating them.

every day. They're [ __ ] terrible for. you. >> Exactly. >> But they taste delicious. You want one. every now and again. And that's the. environment that we're in with some. things and not others, >> right? And that's the problem. It's. illogical. It's illogical. And there's. also this fear aspect to it because if. you go against it, you know, you're. going to get put into a very bad. position where there's people with. enormous power and influence that want. to silence you. And this is why guys. like Rick Doblin are so courageous. like.

cuz he spent like his entire life trying. to do this the right way and doing it. above board by the books and and show. through use with police officers and. military people and people experiencing. PTSD that look this has extreme. beneficial aspects to it that you. shouldn't ignore and they're good for. society and we should probably expand. the use of them in an appropriate way. >> That's right. I think that his work is.

leading to one of the first big kinks in. the armor of the system and you speak to. the value of the way that he did it. You. know what I mean? Yeah. >> Um what are the rules? Tell me will. operate within them. What kind of data. do I have to create? Well, let me make. that data. How do I access the compound? How are you going to let me? >> Right. >> Right. And if we don't know how, we need. the rules. >> Right. >> And sometimes the rules weren't there. and Rick and Maps had to push, right? And in our system, how do we battle?

What's the appropriate way to unleash. violence? It's with lawyers. Yeah. >> Right. It's frowned upon to physically. >> physically be violent. So, he had to. fight. He had to fight with the. government. And what really makes me. nuts, uh, Joe, is, you know, the amount. of back and forth again I heard that. they did with the FDA, with the. regulators. They knew what they were. doing. The design of the process, everything was being talked about, right? Um, and they get a let's wait.

>> It's interesting. The results were too. good, >> you know? I mean, just from the ones I. hold in my heart. >> Yeah. So what do you what kind of. pressure do you think they're under to. not allow these things? Like because. that's the question like what is it? Is. it public social pressure? Because if. they do pass this then they'll be. scrutinized and people that are ignorant. and that have bought into the narrative. will then look at them as like you're. part of the problem. you're contributing. to the deterioration of society by.

allowing this use of MDMA to push. forward and and and by minimizing the. risks of it by talking about the. benefits of it, you're essentially. allowing people to think that it's a lot. safer than it really is. >> Um, look, I think that's I I think. that's a that's a component, right? We. were talking about public perception and. that changing and then that pressuring. and things changing as well. Yeah, >> I think this is a paradigm changing and. shifting thing that the entire system.

including pharma and all these people. that are on these boards, these decision. makers, power brokers, right, are are. are trying to make sense of and I'll. explain. Um, we have a identified. disorder or challenge. We have a. medicine that masks that symptom. This. is going to allow people to truly heal. When you truly heal, you don't have to. keep taking a medicine. You might have. to come back to it periodically.

>> Sure, let's call that a flare up. Yeah. Let's call it a touchup. >> But when you're not taking your pill. every day, >> Yeah. >> every other day. That's going to be a. big hit. >> Yeah. >> To people's power and money, >> right? Especially when you deal with. things like there's a giant business in. keeping people. I don't want to say happy but not. depressed, >> right? Like there's a a giant industry. in people that are on SSRIs and.

anti-depression and anti-anxiety. medication when it's been proven that. exercise is far more effective than. SSRIs are. far more medically proven, statistically proven that SSRIs are not. as effective as regular exercise. >> Well, let me throw something in there. Is that a medicine? >> Right. Yeah. Well, exercise is. definitely a medicine, >> right? So, there's an organization I. think uh it's called exercise asthmetic. a medicine, >> but uh you a mainstream medical doctor.

going to be able to prescribe exercise. to somebody? They can't. >> They should be able to. >> They should be able to. >> Yeah, they really should. But the. problem is there's no profit in that, right? >> Unless you own the gym. >> Oh, do it on your do it on your own, right? >> Join the gym yourself. And you you know, half the people aren't going to go. because they're scared. They don't want. to look goofy, >> right? >> The the the other quarter who do go. might not appropriate approach it. correctly and blow out a tendon. They'll. hurt themselves. >> Yeah. You need trainers, >> right? >> Yeah.

>> It's a really interesting thing here. So, so back to back to your question, this is going to be a paradigm shifting. thing. I believe that psychedelic. assisted talk therapy is going to allow. talk therapy to live up to its promise. as a talking cure. I believe the. psychedelics are going to be able to. cure or push into remission a lot of. these unshakable challenges. And that's. going to be a big hit to the SSRI. That's going to be a big hit to certain. medicines.

You know what else I think it's going to. do? I think it's going to move people. from agnosticism or atheism. towards religion and spirituality. And. it's also going to be a boon for for. religion and. >> which is wild, right? Wild. >> Yeah. >> Wild. >> Have you ever heard of uh John Marco. Allegro's book, The Sacred Mushroom and. the Cross? >> No. It's a book that he wrote after he w he. was one of the people that was uh he was.

contracted to decipher the Dead Sea. Scrolls. It was like a 14-year job where. they were deciphering the Dead Sea. Scrolls. And he was the only one on the. committee that was agnostic. He was an. ordained minister but through his. studying of theology he started becoming. agnostic because he he recognized that. there's just too many religions and too. many parallels and like what what's the. real religion and root of this all or or. origin rather and root of this all. So. he wrote this book after 14 years where.

he I'm going to sort of paraphrase but. he thought that the entire Christian. religion was based on the consumption of. psychedelic mushrooms and fertility. rituals and that this was what it was. all about. And I believe the book f. because I've said this before but I need. to know it's true. Was the book bought. up by the Catholic Church? I think it. was bought up by the Catholic Church and. they stopped production of it and then. he released a new book called the Dead. Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth and.

that one was available. But then since. then they've republished um. >> both of them. >> Yeah, both of them. But the big one was. The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. because that was the one that was kind. of very difficult to get. And I have a. couple copies of it, but they're. original copies that I had to buy. online. >> Okay. And it's a fascinating book that. it's a fascinating book because. >> he translates. >> or he um. >> he. he breaks down the word Christ to an.

ancient Sumerian word which was a. mushroom covered in God's semen. And. this is what he's saying is that they. thought that when it rained that this. was God, his semen on the earth which. has caused all life to to rise from. We. all need light. We all need water. And. then plants of course need water. And. then after rainfall they would find. these mushrooms because mushrooms grow. incredibly quickly. >> And they would consume these mushrooms. and have these religious experiences.

Mhm. >> And this was a a hugely controversial. book, of course, and to to really be. able to know if he's right or wrong, you. would have to have a deep understanding. of ancient languages and and the Bible. and and so many different things. >> Well, you know what that brings up in. me, Joe, is the sacredness of sexuality. One, I don't know why that what you just. said triggered that in me. And the other. is what about every Sunday magically. transmuting. bread and wine into flesh and blood of.

God. Right? This isn't a radical. concept. This is this is accepted. This. is like a a billion followers strong, right? Type type of Christianity that is. through sacred ritual transforming food. into the body and blood of God. >> Right. >> Right. Um, just because we can. understand that this is wood and a table. and we've labeled it and boxed it and.

analyzed it doesn't mean that the. mystery of it all has been stripped. away. And I don't think we need to allow. that process to happen. Right? This is a magical, mysterious. experience. When we're staring at one. another just because we identify as. human beings, do we really know what's. happening or is that ego inflation and. science. trying to dumb down a mystery and a.

magic? >> Well, it's all a mystery, right? We've. become accustomed to the mystery, so it. seems normal. But, you know, if you. didn't exist on Earth and Earth was a. drug that you could take where you could. experience life on Earth, you'd be like, "This is crazy. >> It absolutely is wild. a human being. interacting with people, looking at. things through your eyes. That's right. Hearing things through your ears, touching and feeling, smelling and using. all your senses and navigating through. this bizarre experience of life. >> Very weird. >> And what about that image of the.

oraoris, right? The snake or dragon. eating itself. >> I mean, let's talk about sacred. sexuality and the fact that every living. thing is in a system that's eating and. birthing itself continuously in all. directions. Yeah. >> How do you wrap your mind around that? >> Right. >> You know, I got a big sense of that when. I went into Old Growth Rainforest in. Costa Rica for the first time. >> and I touched like the handle of a. bridge and it felt like it was moving. because like every drop of everything is. alive and everything is either competing.

uh going along with and helping. supporting or eating one another in that. space. And it's like what is happening. in here? It's like everything is alive. >> Yeah. You know, and I had that type of. an experience on psychedelics in the. religious context, psilocybin. I I felt. like I dropped into the collective. conscience and I got to see the. partitioned section that was my psychic. space where all my complexes and traumas. were pulsing energetically into one.

another and how that energy was spilling. over on my family and community. That. was the access that was given to me. through psilocybin, you know, and those energetic forces are. pushing me around right now as we speak. >> Well, which makes you think like if you. were an ancient person and you had this. experience, of course you would think. you're communing with God. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I agree. And look, I we're all ancient. persons right now in this moment in. time. And I believe that.

>> Yeah. Well, we are ancient. And you. know, if you go 5,000 years from now, how they're going to look at us, like. these dorks, like all the [ __ ] that was. illegal, that. >> they were fighting and arguing about. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I can't wait till war is old technology. that we all laugh about. >> Yeah. God, isn't that a crazy thing that. if you asked a person, is it possible in. your lifetime for war to not exist? Most. people would like there's no way. Which. is insane. >> It's so insane. >> because in small groups, it's clearly. easy. Like if it was just you, me, and.

Jamie, and we were the only people on. Earth, it would be super easy to not go. to war with each other. >> That's right. >> We just communicate. >> But then you're dealing with different. languages and control of resources. And. then you have people that are leaders. that have control over giant groups of. people and then use propaganda. Manipulation. Yeah. And manipulate them. into thinking that the only way is we. have to go over there and kill these. people. >> Exactly. >> That's the only way to fight for your. freedom. >> Yep. >> Yep. And uh Joe, you know, when um uh we. there's research out there that shows.

that for a period of time, our species. ended up having something like 5,000 of. us on Earth. >> It's it's it's out there, right? Have. you seen. >> few moments in history, right? >> The Toba volcano. >> and. >> Yeah. H how did how did we survive that? Did we eat each other or hurt each. other? We probably helped each other. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Well, there was probably so few people. they had to. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, this this is the also the point of. Allegro's work that fertility rituals.

were important because people didn't. really survive much. You know, it was. very difficult. Child just labor, just. child birth killed a lot of women, killed a lot of babies. Infections. killed a lot of people. You break your. leg, you're dead. There's a lot of. things that cause people to die. So, it. was very important to have as many. children as possible because most of. them weren't going to live. >> That's right. That's right. And you. bring up a point. the woman might not. have made it through the process itself. >> Yeah. >> And what an important process. >> Yeah. >> For for the overall species well-being.

>> Yeah. The most critical of all. processes. And that's been reduced to a. thing now that's like trivialized. >> Trivialized or even still taboo. >> Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's kind of. crazy. I mean, there's people out there. that love people that don't want to have. children. I'm like, okay, why I wouldn't. want to bring a child into this world? Like, yeah. Why would you with all the. books and medicine and [ __ ] like. >> nicely said? >> Yeah. Like people had people people gave. birth when they didn't know what a door. was. They hadn't figured out floors yet,

you know? It's like. >> we we're constantly in this process of. evolving and changing and growing. But. it just gets stifled by so many. different aspects of civilization, so. many different aspects of control and. propaganda and manipulation and and. fear, the fear of others. >> and fear. I mean, look at what's. happening with our life expectancy, like. you said, and and and uh good medicine. keeping people alive. >> Yeah. >> And um we're living to be 80, 90 years. old, like.

>> and hopefully if you live to be 80 or 90. years old, you'll be wiser. >> Hopefully. >> Right. >> Hopefully. >> Right. >> Hopefully, you'll get more of an. understanding of like what you've done. wrong and like why have you why have I. lived my life in this foolish way? Like. what can I do to correct that? what can. I do to make a more positive impact on. people around me and live my life in a. more harmonious way? But, you know, some. people they're 80 years old, they just. watch Fox News and yell at the TV. >> You know, the right image that went. through my head is somebody turning the. TV off.

>> Yeah. >> Maybe picking up a book. >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, there's a choice. point here, Joe, where you can you. >> sometimes it's hard because there's. things in the psyche that are. manipulating what you're focusing on. traumas. But if you start focusing on gratitude, >> if you start focusing on the beauty, if. you start focusing on the benefits of. science, the benefits of operating in. communion with other human beings. >> Yeah. >> That thing that we said, I mean, how. many people in Manhattan,

>> right, every day waking up, they go to. work, they go home. Yeah. There's a. handful of problems, but that's not how. it's presented. >> Yeah. >> It's miraculous if you think about it. >> It is right. The amount of negative. interactions that people have are. incredibly small. Yeah. >> I mean, you think about the sheer number. of humans. >> That's right. >> Yeah. And yet we we concentrate on the. fear. >> Exactly. >> We concentrate on the dangers. >> and the media zooms in on course someone. who doesn't have a house. >> Yeah. >> Someone who has an addiction problem,

>> someone who's violent. >> Someone who's violent. >> Someone who's a criminal. >> That's right. >> Someone stealing. >> That's right. >> That's all you hear. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I heard um a statistic um that the. military knows about 2% of people are. sociopathic or psychopathic. They don't. have that same conscience that we. automatically assume a human has. >> Right. I don't have any empathy. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Um and it seems to me that we're so. fearbased that we built the outer.

ecology that people have access to. around concerns related to that. We. build the mainstream culture, the laws. that we operate under out of concern for. the 2% rather than celebration of the. 98%. >> Yeah. >> That do care, that do feel empathy, that. do. >> that. And that is the problem with the. algorithm. That's the problem with. social media. And that's the problem. with this addiction to devices that you.

are constantly being inundated with the. negative. >> Yeah. You're constantly interacting with. the worst aspects of life on Earth and. not appreciating all the good that's. around you all the time. >> That's right. Yeah. And the algorithm um. Joe, like you brought up so so. eloquently, it it it takes you down the. path that you click towards, >> you know, and I recall intentionally. starting to click things outside of my. comfort zone and follow thinkers and.

presenters not within my bubble. And. that's what it starts filling with. >> Yeah. >> As well, you know. >> Oh, yeah. You certainly can do that if. you curate a good feed. You know, you. you and you can ignore the negative. And. there's a lot of great stuff. One of the. great things about social media is just. the access to new and fascinating. information. You're you're constantly, if you do follow the right people and do. go down the right roads, you'll be. constantly inundated with fascinating.

information. >> That's right. >> New discoveries. the James Webb. telescope and new things that people are. learning about quantum physics and all. all these different fascinating things. that can enrich your mind. Right. >> And expand your understanding of the. world that we live instead of dwelling. all on all the negative aspects of human. civilization. >> Right. Right. And that kind of speaks to. the fact that we are lucky to be able to. have access to social media in that way. Yeah, >> there's nations that don't allow that.

type of access. >> by design. >> Right. So, the power the power of our. method is liberty and freedom. >> Yes. >> Right. Not criminalization and. prohibition. >> So, you see the jump I'm trying to make. there. >> And the jump also is what you were. talking about before with education. And. I think we need an education too with. people in social media use. >> People need to be kind of coached and. understand how to use it, how to use it. correctly, right? And you know, I've. been trying to express to as many people.

as I can, especially people in the. public eye, don't read comments. You got. to stop doing that. Don't read things. about you. Don't read negative things. about you. It's bad for you. >> Yeah. >> It's bad for you. And also, you're. dealing with the the percentage of. people that are commenting negative. things, those people almost entirely. live lives that you would not envy. >> Nicely said. They're almost all a mess. >> That's right. And so you're interacting. with the I don't want to say the worst. aspects of society, but the most.

troubled human beings, the the people. that are thinking in the most ridiculous. way. They're they're constantly focusing. on negative aspects of either human. beings or of society in general or and. they're feeding off of it and that. that's their focus all day long and they. spend most of their time arguing with. people online. Like do you want to be. involved in that? like that is when we. live in what is primarily a beautiful. world. >> Nicely said. Yeah. And um I think you're. pointing at uh something that's.

important to keep in mind is be careful. about what you let in. >> Yes. >> Right. Um I think that's like a that's a. universal principle, but it's eloquently. shared in Buddhism where they say guard. your dharma gates, >> right? Your eyes, your ears, your nose, your mind, >> right? Your senses. What are you taking. in? Yes. >> Um cuz you know there's other. philosophies that say thoughts are. things, be careful what you think, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> And I've I've come to notice um let's.

call it the CBT triangle, cognitive. behavioral therapy or theory triangle, right? Thoughts lead to emotions lead to. actions, right? Because of psychedelic work, I've able. to see how a thought actually is a. portal that allows a certain energetic. flow into you and that affects you and. that can manifest in reality out of you. >> As a therapist, how have you. incorporated this in everyday life,

>> okay, with your patients? >> Two things come to mind when you ask. that question. It's made me more. empathetic. because I've had direct access, direct. experience of some of these theories you. read about or have a teacher as the. expert tell you about. I've had direct. access to. The second is I'm able to. share with people when they come to me. being pulled towards experiencing these. things ideas around harm reduction,

where to go, right? There's legal. states, there's less legal states. I can. talk to them about the substances, right? I'm not prescribing, but if you. come to talk to me, I can listen. >> Yeah. >> See what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> And I know from direct experience some. things, >> right? >> Right. I'm also able to fight off fear. and I can go into these territories with. people. Therapy uh therapists need to.

know that themselves. Um, you don't want. to step outside of what you're the lanes. that you're comfortable being in. Right? If you're not comfortable being in a. certain lane, you got to go get. training, training and experience to be. an ethical practitioner before you talk. about something, right? And I've gotten. that experience. It's never ending. I'm. not done. I'm just in my process of. awakening, right? >> And I can share from that reference. point, >> you know, as a therapist. That was that. was your question, right? That's how I. think I can help people. I'm more. empathetic. you come in and want to talk.

to me about a particular substance, I. have a little bit of a lived experience. knowledge base I can share with you. And. legally, I'm allowed to talk harm. reduction. >> Yeah. >> Right. I can't prescribe. I'm not going. to tell you to do something illegal. But. if you want to talk to me about it, >> I know a thing or two. >> Not everything, >> just a thing or two. >> I think one of the best arguments. against decriminalization is what. happened with Portland. Okay. >> So, you know, they went down this path.

It was Portland, right? It wasn't. Seattle that went down this path of pure. legalization. >> Oregon, everything. Yeah. Decriminalized. everything. >> And it went sideways. M. >> and I think it was probably because the. culture that had already been firmly. established in that place condoned open. air drug markets. People that were. addicted to fentinyl and opiates out on. the street and methamphetamines out on.

the street using them constantly. No. education. And then they just sort of. opened the doors for everything. And. then people went there specifically. because they could do these things. >> and be that on the streets. >> and also be subsidized. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let let me. bring some uh some things up about that. Um so, you know, I believe in. decriminalization, but there's a right and a not so right. way to do something, right? And I'm.

going to use examples of laws we already. have on the book. This might not be a. popular statement, but it's my truth. If. you say you're going to decriminalize, you can look at the way we handle. alcohol. We don't allow public. drunkenness. We don't have to allow it. A lot of places say you can't walk. around and be inebriated and open bottle. drink. Even the most liberal places, right? A cop can come up, they can. protective custody you into a cage or. they can help you get home, right? Wh. Why don't those rules apply? If you're.

in public, we can say we're not gonna. want you to use openly in public, >> right? >> You know, >> but when you've already got people. openly camping out on the streets and. littering everywhere and like what. they've already allowed, unfortunately, they need to clean that up first before. they can say, "We're going to. decriminalize everything." because. you've already allowed people to do. something that, >> you know, publicly is frowned upon to.

just like be [ __ ] on the street and. to to to, you know, open drug use. everywhere, right? Have people camped. out, homeless people like covering up. sidewalks where you can't get around and. there's needles everywhere and it's like. garbage everywhere. >> Well, we can agree that we don't want. that. And in many places like there's. local ordinances against that, there's. state level laws against that and we can. go all the way up there doing anything. about that. >> Well, that's the thing we can analyze.

Yeah. >> Um why why wasn't the funding in place. to ensure that public areas with public. access. followed some rules? Why? What happened? You know, I think that can be figured. out. >> Yeah. >> Right. So we we realize that if we say. fullscale decriminalization anything. goes doesn't work. I would have told you. right from the beginning. Well that's. kind of freaky. Why are we going that. far? Why don't we have any funding to. help people and tell them no you can't.

take a [ __ ] over there. >> Right. >> You have to take a [ __ ] over here. We. can all agree we don't want human feces. over here. >> Right. >> Right. That that that's not a shot. against that person. We got to figure. out what's going on. Why are they. pooping over there? Not in the porta. potty over here. Or how about have a. location where those people can go that. isn't a prison, >> right? >> Where we have wraparound services where. we have maybe access to what they need, maybe access to what they're addicted. to.

Right now we're starting to talk about. safe supply with care and medical. intervention. >> Yeah. No one's ever done that. successfully though, right? like has any. state ever incorporated some sort of. successful. program where they gave people safe. supply and then counseling and got like. a percentage of them off drugs and. healthy. So, I've heard that Canada is. exploring the medical access of medical. grade heroin for certain people and we. know that certain countries for years at.

this point have safe injection. facilities where people can come to use. their drugs under care and consideration. and then leave. We we know these things. work, but they've got to be curated. properly. >> Yeah. when you also can't impose it on. all the rest of society by allowing. people to just camp out everywhere on. the streets. >> Well, that's the example that right like. we can have rules, local ordinances that. say we we this isn't a campground.

>> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> And what do you need for this not to be. a campground? Let's talk. Come talk in. this building over here. >> Right. >> Right. We could even figure out what. kind I mean, what's that going to cost? We could figure that out. And why isn't. it being funded? Right. And why aren't the police. properly funded to act in a guardianship. way in those situations, right? >> Yeah. >> Cuz look, look,

>> our efforts go in the direction that our. funding goes because people build their. lives around that. And if funding is 90%. on enforcement, then that's what you're. going to get. >> Right. >> Right. And we talked about the problems. and how hurtful defund was. How about. properly funding law enforcement to work. in a guardianship paradigm for these. situations that aren't necessarily. criminal. They might be public health. Now you're keeping the cops involved.

>> Right. >> Right. You're not saying we're going to. defund you. We don't need you. We do. need you. You play a vital role in our. society. But that would require like a. fundamental shift of progressive. ideology. They'd have to like change the. way they view cops. >> Maybe that'll have to be incorporated in. drips and drabs and carefully into. training. >> Right. Yeah. >> But I got an example for you. >> Okay. >> I got an example for you. I think it's. really important. It's from where I. come. >> Right. In Winthrop, Massachusetts. Winthre, Massachusetts. 10 years ago.

when I was a patrol officer and I kept. coming in seeing public health issues in. the police logs and police incidents, public health issue, mental health. challenge, um a person not having access. to their psychiatrist running out of. their medicine, overdose save, overdose. loss tragically over and over and over. again. And I went talk to the police. chief. I said, his name's Terrence. Delahanti. I said, "Chief, on patrol. when I'm in, will you let me make a pile. of work? Let's call it cases to.

investigate because I think I have a. detective fetish. I've never been a. detective, but I wanted to investigate. things, too. He's like, "Then what are. you going to do with that pile?" I I'm. going to follow up in police uniform, patrol car. I'm going to go knock on a. door and have a conversation with. somebody, see what they really need to. prevent that 911 call for service. He's. on record saying he thought I was going. to bang my head up against the wall. He's like, "There's no one's going to. talk to this kid in full uniform." But. he was so excited I had to let him try. Two, three weeks later, I come back. I.

said, "Chief, I got a problem. People. are inviting me into their house, telling me to sit down, calling somebody. down who's telling me that they were. looking for cocaine, got fentanyl. We. have a good problem. I got to connect. these people to their appropriate help.". You know what he said to me? He said, "Connect them to the public health. department. There's a woman in there. Her name is Meredith Hurley and she's. brought in people with lived and living. experience with challenges related to. intoxicating substances who are open. about it to help with the overdose.

crisis. Bang. Public safety connected with public. health. We created what I call the. public uh the police to public health. pipeline. Right? Picture this. a cop showing up to your. house because they know what's going on. in your house. You called 911 and you. told us without us even coercing you and. saying, "Joe, what's going on? What do. you need? What do you need to be well?

We don't want you to die. Talk to us. We're not going to use it against you. I'm actually not going to run you. because I'm playing this distinct role. I'm not going to run you. I don't want. to know if there's any outstanding. warrants. I'm not here I'm not here to. snoop around to find something that I'm. going to be able to charge you with. I'm. here to see what you need to not die and. not have my detective show up and put. you in a cage. that started in Winthre over 10 years.

ago. It's called Clear Community and Law. Enforcement Assisted Recovery. >> Well, that's hopeful. You just got to. expand something like that. I think we. have room to expand it across the whole. country. We are repositories. Police. departments are repositories of. information on human suffering. You know what we're doing with that? If. it's not traditional enforcementbased. policing to make cases for court,

nothing. That's not right. So, it's the way it's. approached. It's the way these problems are. approached and that they need new. solutions. Solutions that are. preventative and that enforce the sense. of community and help law enforcement. officers ingratiate themselves with. these people and be a part of the. community instead of just being a person. who comes to lock them up. >> There it is. You know what that is?

That's community policing. We call it. recoveryoriented. community policing. Right now, let me. plug something else in that I think is a. sophisticated. important point that people people got. to keep in mind. This isn't. an attack on traditional enforcement. type of policing. Right? If you are sensitive to human. nature, you know there's going to be. violations of the type that need.

somebody to show up and take a person. out of their house in cuffs, put them in. a jail cell, and take them to court. Unfortunately, the dark side is a part. of human nature. And that type of. policing done right is important and it. keeps us well. But when it's the only. type of policing, we're missing. something. We're missing something. important and special. And our people are expecting our. officers to show up and put a hand out,

a hand, a helping hand and say, "We know. what's going on and we want you to be. well. We don't want you to die. We don't. want you to be in a cage. Human being in. a cage.". I think it is fundamentally law. enforcement's role to do that. This. and that. Yeah, well said. It might be a good way to end this. Uh, tell people how they can get a hold of. you, social media, like where you are.

>> Sure. I appreciate that. >> Well, they can look up my name, Sarco. Jeriana. I'm out of Winthre, Massachusett last name because they're. not going to be able to get that right. >> Sure. >> It's G E R G E R I A N. I'm out of. Winthre, Massachusetts. I'm a lieutenant. with the Winthr Police Department. Um, I. want I Joe, let me plug this in. Um, I. am here speaking of my own beliefs, sharing about the positives about my. community, my department, the safety I.

found there. But these are my ideas. I'm. not purporting to talk on behalf of. Winthrop police, Winthrop Mass. I just. need people to know that. But they can. find me online. Um, they can they can. get a hold of me at um my work email. I. liberally share my personal email. Uh, and if they send me an email, I'll. respond. >> How do they get your email? >> Um, you know, it's just my last. namegmail.com. ge r ge r i a nggmail.com.

>> Okay, good luck with the amount of. emails you're going to get after this. >> All right, let's do it. Give me some. time to get back to you. >> All right. Well, thanks, brother. I. appreciate you. I appreciate you. Your. perspective, the fact that you're. willing to express it the way you do and. that you're willing to come on here and. stick your neck out like this means a. lot. >> Joe, let me say something back to you, man. Um, this was a really special. special moment uh for me. Um um I'm I'm. not only a colleague of yours, man. I'm.

a fan. And um a number of close personal. friends, one in particular, Billy. Rinstein, who I love to death, said tell. Joe that he has helped me so. tremendously. His show, has helped me. stay well, be well, be happy. And I. wanted to get that message out. >> That's awesome. Shout out to Billy. All. right. All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right. Bye, everybody. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause].

[Music].