Joe Rogan Experience #2353 - Shaka Senghor

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> Good. What's up? Pleasure to meet you. >> Oh, such a pleasure to be here. >> My Yeah, it's um I I heard your story. Why don't you tell everybody your story. because the story's is pretty wild. >> Yeah. So, I I grew up in Detroit. Um. working-class neighborhood. Dad was in.

the uh Air Force and worked for the. state. Mom was a homemaker. So on the. outside looking in, it really looked. like a household where the kids should. make it. Um but unfortunately it's a. very abusive household and I ran away. when I was about 13 years old and at the. time prior to that you know honor role. scholarship student dreams of being a. doctor artist um I wanted to be a doctor. cuz I felt like that was a occupation. where I felt like you can help people.

And unfortunately, you know, when I ran. away, I thought that I would basically. just kind of get welcomed into the home. of someone who would see this kid and be. like, "Oh, you know, this kid just. deserves love or whatever." But I found. myself on the east side of Detroit in an. apartment with a gun to my head. And it. was my introduction to the street. culture. I was being robbed. Um, and I. was being robbed by this guy who later. we would learn his name was Tiny. Um,

even though he was like big fat, probably about six feet tall, and him. and his partner literally robbed me at. gunpoint, took my drugs, took the money. And I think that was like one of those. moments where the innocence of being a. kid just was shattered. You know, it's. like, you know, now I'm in this world. where my life is in danger. Uh, but I. stayed in that culture. My childhood. friend was murdered. Um, I was beat. nearly to death. And despite that, I. just continued to sell drugs. You know,

it's it's one of the things when I when. I think back to, you know, even that. part of my life, you know, there's the. glorification of like the hustler, right? It's like you, you know, we out. here making money. We're doing things, but the reality is it's a kid navigating. a very dangerous adult world at the time. that crack is just penetrating the the. community. And one of the one of the. things that always go back to this image. of the first time I made a lot of money. and I just had this wide of cash like. it's like all singles, $5 bills, $10.

bills and I went to the store on the. corner and I bought all the cereal that. I can think of like all the cereal that. I could not you know my parents they. even though you know my dad made decent. money like we couldn't always get all. the cereal because it was like all these. kids and then I bought like chocolate. milk and strawberry milk and then I went. back to the crack. Wow. >> Um, >> and you were like what, 13? >> Literally like 13 years old. And so, you. know, I stayed in that culture. Um, and.

then when I was like 17 years old, I was. standing March 8th. I'll never forget. that day. I was standing on the corner. and I got into like a minor conflict. Um, and then I got shot multiple times. And that was probably the most serious. turning point in my life. Um, after I. got shot, they called ambulance and the. ambulance never came. This at this time. I'm on the west side of Detroit and I'm. just sitting on the porch bleeding. And my friend, he was like, look, I'm.

going to have to take you to the. hospital cuz ambulance is just not going. to come. And I remember getting in the. car and he's just like, you know, breathe. Like you got to take these deep. breaths. You know, this is how you're. going to navigate the pain. And the. reason he was able to do that, he had. got shot the year prior, you know. So. it's just like he got shot, his friend. got killed. So the gun violence was. just, you know, it was so much a part of. like the culture and and that I grew up. in that I didn't think about what was.

happening inside of me after I got shot. And so I get to the hospital, they take. two of the bullets out of my leg and. they leave one bullet in and basically. they patch me up. And you know, I. remember my dad coming to the hospital. and at this point I was the third of my. brothers to be shot. And I'll never forget this look on my. dad's face of like. it was almost a look of. like defeat, you know, of like how do I.

how do I save my my boys, you know? And so when I when I left the hospital, like nobody like the doctor, the nurse, nobody just was like, "Hey, you're going. to have all these feelings." And so I. get back and I'm in the neighborhood. and, you know, I'm angry cuz I really. want to get revenge on this guy who shot. me. Like that's the number one priority. for me is like, you know, I got to get I. got to retaliate. And then I'm standing outside. Um this.

is probably like day two. I had. crutches. I'm like lying in the. neighborhood, crutches, patched up, bullet wounds. I'm standing on the. corner and. I remember a car coming down the street. and like my body almost seized up and I. was like, why do why am I why am I. feeling this kind of like anxiet now? It's anxiety back then. I just was no. name for it. Um but I couldn't tell my. friends that I really was afraid of. standing outside and being exposed.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. And so that was 17 years old. And. so. what happened after that was I began to. tell myself this story that if I found. myself in conflict again, I would shoot. first. And I began to literally carry a. gun every day. It wasn't the first time. I had carried a gun, but like I began to. carry a gun like every day. Like it. didn't matter what I was doing, using. the bathroom, gun is on the sink. um. going to sleep at night, gun is up under.

the pillow, probably wasn't the smartest. place to to sleep with a gun. But that. was the nature of how I felt, you know, what I was dealing with. And so I. started to tell myself this narrative. and about 16 months or so later, maybe. 14 months, um I was DJing a party and. you know, I love music. You know, I come. from Detroit. It's it's one of the. greatest music cities, um you know, in. the world. And so I'm DJing this party. and shots ring out. People are running,

scrambling, you know, getting away and. you know the people whose party I was. DJing, they come to the back like. somebody got shot in the front so we got. to shut everything down. So we shut the party down. Um, we're on like super heightened alert, you know, we're getting making sure. everybody we got head count for like our. crew and you know, it's me and my. girlfriend and we're going back to my. home. Um, and I remember us walking, we. had walked around to the party. We're.

walking back and this truck pulls up and. it's, you know, it's car full of guys. and so, you know, I'm on edge. I got a. pistol on me. So, I'm like, you know, what's what's happening? And they was. like, "Oh, no. We just, you know, all. know that Derek was the guy who shot the. guy in front of the house." So now we. got at least some idea of who what the. shooting involves. We get back around. and when we get on our block, cars. coming up the street and there's a guy. inside the car and he's like, "Yo," you. know, he calls me over and I'm like, "You know what's happening?" He's like, "Yo, want to make a deal?" Blah, blah,

blah. And he got two guys that I don't. know. And I'm like, um, I'm like, "No, I. don't want to do the deal right now.". like it's a lot going on and you know so. I'm I'm a little amped up you know it's. a you know a lot going on and so we get. into this verbal altercation where he's. like adamant about me selling some drugs. to him I'm adamant about him like you. know getting off the block and so that. escalates into like a full-blown. argument and one of the guys in the car. with him he joins into the argument so. we're like all back and forth back and.

forth and there's a moment where. you know I turn to Um, so the moment I turned to walk away and. I like literally. took what. probably like one or two steps and I. thought I heard one of them trying to. get out of the car and I turned and. fired four shots that tragically ended. the man's life. Um,

you know, it's one it's one of those. moments that. um. I always think about that moment like. what if id have just took like a second. step you know what if I would have just. like I mean it was a series of whatifs. you know um but when I I tragically. ended this man's life and it wasn't the. first time I had been in the gun battle. It wasn't the first time I had been in. any of that that that lifestyle.

I felt it. I felt like I did something. that was like you can't undo. Like I. just like I felt it in my spirit. Like. at 19 years old, I'm like one month into. being 19 and I was just like I [ __ ]. up. Like I've I've I've done something. that's not you can't you can't repair. that. you can't you can't come back and. say I'm sorry. You can't come back and. be like, you know, I made a mistake or.

um whatever. And and so, you know, the. car screeches off, you know, people are, you know, running inside the house. Everybody's just like, you know, what. the what what is happening? Um I made. everybody leave and then I was like, I. got to go on a run or something like I. don't you know, I don't want to get. arrested. I don't want to be. accountable. Um, but I was arrested. probably a day or so later. I was.

charged with open murder and I was. eventually convicted of seconddegree. murder and sentenced to 17 to 40 years. in prison at the age of 19. >> Wow. >> So, take me through what it's like when. you got convicted. you you know now. you're going to jail. What is what is. this feeling like? >> So when I got arrested um got charged.

the first thing I went to the county. jail uh Wayne County Jail and going into. the county jail you are introduced to. just this other world. You know I had. heard about it. You know growing up on. the streets you hear about like you. don't want to go to the county jail. It's the worst [ __ ] ever. Right. And so going into the county jail was. like, you know, it's going into a war. zone. You know, it's fights every day. It's like, you know, people are testing. you. Can they [ __ ] take your. breakfast and lunch? So going in, I knew.

that that was just the reality of like, you know, anticipating like at some. point I'm going to have to prove myself. and I'm going have to stand up for. myself. And and so I get into the county. jail and I end up the guy who I'm in the. cell with, he's serving life, but he's. back on appeal. Um, and so he's, you. know, he's kind of telling me all the. the kind of what to expect in jail and. you know, this guy right here on the. sale block, he likes to fight all the. time or whatever, you know, but I also. grew up like in the city, right? So I'm,

you know, I tell people this all the. time like you can I don't I don't do. scared straight when I talk to kids. about like not going to jail cuz to me. it's not about it's not about being. afraid. If you're from the hood, you. probably had a fight or two. You know. what I'm saying? Um, but I get in there. and, you know, we get into our dustups. and, you know, eventually it's kind of. like a hierarchy of like, you know, who's going to stand up for themselves. and and typically guys kind of back. down. But early on, I'm like, I don't I. don't want to be in jail. I want to be. in prison. So, I ended up trying to.

escape from the county jail. And what. happened was there was a guy on the sale. block with me. He was already sentenced. He's about to go upstate and do a lot of. time. And one day he went to recreation. and came back with like a long pole he. had smoke smuggled from the rooftop gym. And his idea was that he would bluning. the officer take the officer's uniform. and then let us out the cell and take us. out. And I'm like dude this got to be. the dumbest [ __ ] idea. Like we're not.

making it out of the cell block, right? But I was like but what if we take this. pole and we bust the window out and bend. the beam? And so we plot over the next. couple of weeks, we like would take. people's like sheets, like we would. bully people out of their sheets like. you can only have one sheet, you going. to take the other one. Um, so we took. all these sheets and we probably ended. up with probably about 60 or 70 sheets. and we can get out of ourselves. So we. would basically you you you tie the.

sheet up into a knot, slide the knot. under the door and pull it up into the. door jamb and if you shake it and keep. rocking it while you're pulling it up, it'll pop open. And so we would just pop. out. We'd be out on on like literally in. the day room. You know, this back you. could smoke cigarettes in the building. That's the only way we can get a light. cuz the lighter was on the wall. So we. would do that all the time anyway. So. when it was time for us to do the escape. plan, it was about five of us. We all. had agreed we're going to go for it. And. basically we popped the doors. We're.

like busting out the the glass in the in. the in the uh window and um we're. starting to bend the beam. What we. didn't anticipate was that they actually. do perimeter checks like around the. jail. You know, we're we're dumb kids. We're not like thinking about this. And. so, as we're bending it, next thing you. know, there's a light flashing up to the. window. And you can hear like the lady. on the radio like, "What the [ __ ] are. y'all doing?" Like, we're trying to get. out. So, now we're like, we're we're. busted. So, we just throw everything on.

the on the tier. Everybody goes back, you know, in in their in their sales. And so it took them probably about a. half hour before they even discovered. which which unit we were on that was. trying to escape. They came up there. like gang busters like Lilius, you know, it's 20 30 deaths. They just came in. snatching us off the sail, slamming us. on the wall, you know, and where they. messed up is because they did that now. everybody has glass in their shoes. And. so they couldn't even differentiate. between who had been out, who wasn't.

Um, and so they, you know, they put us. in solitary for that. Uh, charged us. with attempting escape. And during that. time, I was actually getting sentenced. And none of us would snitch and talk. about like none of us would tell who it. was. So, they really was just kind of. going on what they thought. So, we. served that little time and there, but I. was getting sentenced. And you know when. I when I went in front of that judge, I. just remember standing there and. listening to them walk through that.

night. You know, the prosecutors telling. what happened that night. And it was the. it was a one-dimensional telling of that. story. It was the you know, it was the. very factual like, hey, this guy, you. know, shot killed this man. It was no. context to none of my my life. Um, and. when the judge sentenced me, you know, he said 15 to 40 years for the homicide. and two years for uh the felony firearm.

At 19, I thought my life was over. Like I thought that was it. Like at 19, I couldn't even imagine, you know, 17 years down the line. You. know, at that age, I couldn't even. imagine like two weeks down the line. It. felt like a lifetime. So, when he. sentenced me, I was like, "This is it, man. Like, my life is. over." And so, I started my prison. sentence with the mindset that I was.

never getting out of prison. >> How much time did you wind up doing? >> I did a total of 19 years. And out of. that 19 years, I did seven of those. years. in solitary confinement. What is that like? >> It is the. when I tell people it is the most. barbaric thing that we do to people in.

this country. Um, and it's a combination of reasons of. why I believe that. One, a lot of people. who are in solitary confinement have. pre-existing mental health challenges, meaning that they have diagnosed, you. know, bipolar, schizophrenia. Um, and it's 23-hour lockdown, you know, 23-hour lockdown, 5 days a week, 24-hour. lockdown the other two days a week. And.

it is the most chaotic environment you. can imagine. Um the guys there, you. know, to wage war with each other would. just like the steel foot locker, they. would bang it for hours. Like these guys. would just have I mean the endurance to. do that for hours to antagonize a person. next to you. Um, they would have what. what is fullon [ __ ] wars like where the. the I call them weapons of ass. destruction because these guys would.

like concoct ways to throw feces on each. other. So if they get into a beef like. the way that they would go to war is. they would literally I mean and it's. it's there's a there's an ingenuity that. happens in prison that's unlike anything. that most people can comprehend. Um, we. can make weapons out of anything. We can. make, you know, tools out of anything. So, these guys would literally figure. out how to get feces into a toothpaste.

tube, which mean that they would like. have to like literally go in the toilet, pull this stuff out, stuff it into a. thing, and then they would smuggle it. out to like the cages, right? So, five. days we would go out to these cages. They're it's like just imagine a dog. kennel, like a dog run, right? It's like. kennel after kennel after kennel. So. that's how they would take us out. And. you know, you you're in a sale, they. come and they handcuff you to uh these. handcuffs attached to a leash and they. walk you down the tier, take you out to. this dog kennel and they let you out. And so they have to give you at least an.

hour of that a day. And so these guys. would come out and they would be, you. know, beefing with their neighbor. And. and now it's a fullon they're just. squirting [ __ ] on each other like it's. [ __ ] insane. And there there was this. one guy, man. I remember this one guy. He had a colostomy bag. I mean, this was. like the equivalent of having a [ __ ]. AK-47. He's like this guy. This episode is. brought to you by Squarespace. If you. got something to say, sell, or share.

with the world, you need a legit online. presence. Me, I use Squarespace to power. my website. It's easy to use and with. their AI enhanced website builder and. built-in tools for booking, payments, emails, all of it, you can actually run. your business, not just build a site. Go. to squarespace.com/rogan. for a free trial. And when you're ready. to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10%. off your first purchase of a website or. domain. >> And he me and we were like cool. So he. would tell me the days like don't come.

out. He would like send me a note over. like don't come out the yard today. I'm. about to shoot this [ __ ] up. I'm like, dude, what are you talking about? So, he. would like go out there and whip the. colostomy bag off and just literally. take the yard hostage. Like, don't. nobody say [ __ ] You say something. almost stole [ __ ] everywhere, right? Um, and so that's how they would wage war. And so, that's what that was the the the. chaos of the environment. And then like, you know, we get into with the officers, guys would like flood the sail block. So, they would put sheets in the toilet. and just flush flush flush. And now the.

whole tier is just flooded. And so it's. definitely a biohazard issue at at at. minimum, right? Your your health and. well-being is always being threatened. by, you know, I mean, you get I think we. got three showers a week and the showers. are like they're just back to back. So. you're not like they're not cleaning. them out in between showers. So you're. literally handcuffed. They take you down. to the shower cage. you go in there and. it's [ __ ] snot on the wall and it's. [ __ ] you know somebody's shaving.

because they they will give you like the. little razors to shave. and then you got the guys who we call. them cutters. So these are guys who like. selfm um and they would take I mean. anything you could think of they would. take and just kind of carve up their. skin you know swallowed like one guy. swallowed batteries so they stopped us. from like even getting at one point we. can get like a little tape player and a. guy ended up swallowing the battery so. they banned all batteries so then we. couldn't listen to music anymore and so.

it was just like complete chaos and you. know it's it's one of the darkest places. you know, in in the world. Um, and I've. been in different solitary, you know, in. prison. Out of 19 years, I was. transferred a total of 19 years to 11. different prisons. And so, I've done. solitary in like a super old prison, more the modern prison. But the one I. did the most time in, which was from. 1999 to 2004,

um, was called Oaks Correctional. Facility. It's one of more modern. prisons. And so, you know, in the midst. of that chaos, I decided like I got to. there was a couple of things. So, one, I. had read this book about what's supposed. to happen to your mind when you're in. that environment. And it talks about. like how it will cause you to. hallucinate. It talks about how it will. cause you to not feel like you have like. any agency over your life. It affects. how you communicate. Uh because in order.

to talk, you got to lay on your floor. and like scream under the door and try. to hear a guy or you got to try to talk. through like the electrical socket. So. it's all these different things that I I. kind of knew going in. And so I set up. for myself cuz I didn't want to like the. only thing I feared about being in. prison was losing my mind. I was never. worried about my physical safety. Um you. know, I grew up fighting. I grew up with. brothers. You know, I grew up on the. east side of Detroit, so I knew how to. like take care of myself. Losing my mind was the one thing that I.

was like that was a I was afraid of that. cuz I saw guys who were like normal guys. and five years in they're not the same. You know, they're not the same. And you. see this like glossed over look in their. eyes and it's the scariest [ __ ] ever to. see somebody start to hallucinate, start. to make up a life that that that you. know is not true. And so I set my days. up like I was at university. Um, and and. I always say this, uh, uh, Joe, this is.

like super important. I was lucky. And I. was lucky because I was literate. And. like the average reading grade in prison. is about third grade. And I wouldn't be. here with you right now if I didn't know. how to read. Like I would not be the. person that I am today. Um, and so. because I knew how to read, I was able. to really structure my days like I was. at a school. You know, I would study. philosophy in the morning. I would study. world history. I would study African. history. And then I would just like read.

for pleasure. But I was always like, you. know, every day I'm figuring out, okay, how do I keep my mind moving forward? And if you keep your mind moving. forward, you can actually survive. And. it's, you know, it's no different than. any other hard [ __ ] you got to go. through. But it's really like, can you. keep your mind taking one more step? And. then there were some days where I was. like, I don't I don't like, yo, this. [ __ ] is too much. like I'm I'm feel. myself like physically like I can't take. one more day. And in those days I would.

just grab a book man of somebody who. inspired me. You know sometime it would. be Nelson Mandela. He had been through. like 27 years. Um and I would just like. open it up and like let me just start. reading something. I would read uh the. poem Invictus. Like that poem always. just kind of brought me back like you're. the master of your own fate. You know. what I'm saying? You're the you're the. captain of your soul. So I would go back. and read that. There's a book called As. a Man Think of by James Allen. It's. about 60s something pages. I would. literally my my my version of that was.

so dog here, but I would like literally. just open it up and any page was about. if you master your thinking, you can. master your environment. And so it was. like things like that would keep my my. brain just going forward. Um, you know, obviously I would work out, you know, do. push-ups and and calisthetics and roll. up. Um, I used to roll my mattress up. and you tie a sheet, one sheet around it. and you put the other sheet through it. and you make your handle and now you. could do your curls, you know. So I. would do that, take that mattress, put.

on my back, I would do squats. So I. would I would run my my routine in there. and just running that routine is really. what kept me like, you know, put one. positive thought in front of the next, you know. Um, and I mean at that time I. still was like, you know, I wasn't I. wasn't like a model prisoner, you know? I don't I don't want the listeners to be. confused by that cuz that's a little. different, right? It's somebody who. follows the rules and just stays out of. the way and get out of trouble. Like I.

was I was I was I was into bad [ __ ] in. there, you know? I was not I didn't. never think I was getting out. So I was. like, I just got to run the environment, you know? I got to be in control in this. environment. and I got to, you know, make all the the moves um to have agency. over my life in that environment. And. so, initially, while I was in there, I. was just I was only focused on getting. out so I can finish getting into [ __ ]. >> So, when So, what what initially sent.

you to solitary? So, the first time I went to solitary. was for an assault on um on a uh a guy. who was my neighbor and basically I. didn't have any money on my books at the. time and I you know store day came. around and I was like I'm going to go. take his [ __ ] and so I let went to rob. this guy and he happened to be coming in. the sale at the time. We got into like a. fist of cuffs and and so they took me to. uh solitary for that and I did about a.

year for that. >> A year? >> Yeah. And then it's cuz what happened. was a officer got assaulted in the. process. He jumped on my back and I. thought it was like his salemate coming. to help him and I kind of threw him off. me and and so that that that was cost me. about a year. And then the second time. um this was some crazy [ __ ] So I was at. the Michigan Reformatory and at the time. I'm the lion foreman. So I'm like I make. sure as we're serving child that you. know if this thing is running out of. like cutlets I put the cutlets in the.

thing for them to continue serving. And. we were all about efficiency. Like we. want to move these guys through fast as. possible cuz the the the the child hall. is where all the [ __ ] goes down. It's. the stabbings go down. It's crazy. So we. trying to move guys out. And this guy. man he's he's just holding up the line. And so what happened is that sometime. they would send these guys over to the. reformatory was like a higher security. level. It's the old, you know, it's the. oldest prison in Michigan at the time. It's called the Gladiator School. And. sometime they would send these guys from.

like the lower levels who, you know, they're getting in trouble at the lower. levels and they would send them over. there as punishment, you know? And. usually when they come over there, they. don't realize that that this is a. different this is a different game. You. know what I mean? Like like the. reformatory is real prison. those lower. levels, it's like a [ __ ] camp. You're. not dealing with, you know, you're. dealing with real prison. And so this. guy comes over, he's holding up the line. and we're like, yo, like what's what's. the hold up? And and so he starts to. cuss our crew out, you know, like.

basically y'all y'all [ __ ] acting. like this y'all fool. Give me more. potatoes. Like so it's like he's upset. He's not he don't feel like he's getting. enough. And so I'm just I'm talking to. the guy and I'm like, yo, I'm like I'm. like chill out. Like what what what's. what's the situation here? you know, and. he like, "They acting like this, their. food, blah blah blah." And I'm like, "What what you want?" He like, "You. know, y'all give me some more." So now. he's being disrespectful. So I was like, "All right, I got it." So I load him up. on mashed potatoes, gravy, call him to. the window, and I slap him with it. And. I was like, "Yo, don't come to the.

window disrespectful." And so I didn't. slap him with this whole tray of. potatoes and gravy. And uh and he takes. off running and he like runs to the. officers, you know. And so my supervisor. who was cool and he was like go to the. back and like hide you know so he's. trying to hide me out because I'm one of. his better workers. He don't want to. like lose me to to this. And so you know. that led to me being in solitary for a. year. >> A year. >> Another year for hitting the guy with. >> slapping the guy with mash potatoes. Yeah. >> And so now I'm there for another year. But the last the last incident um which.

was happened in in 1999. me and this officer we got into a. conflict and the conflict escalated when. he pushed me like literally he wouldn't. let me go to the bathroom. He pushed me. and then I beat him up. And this was a. this was another one of those moments of. like, you know, I think I think in life, man, that sometime we don't talk enough about. how lucky we are. Um, being this guy, we.

get into a we get into a confrontation, it escalates. At this time, like I'm 27. Um, all I do is lift weights, work out, whatever. And I don't even realize the difference. between like a 27 year old grown man's. strength and the boy that walked into. prison. Um, and so when I punch this. guy, I don't in my mind I'm not even. thinking about like how destructive it.

is for a grown man to punch another p. another human being. I'm just like we. get into the thing, it escalates. So I. punch him and I I soon after I punch. him, I like go for the scoop, pick him. up, and his leg gets caught under my. arm. So I slam him down. His radio flies. over the um the railing, lands on the. floor. Now when this conflict happened, they're doing what's called emergency. count. So every month in prisons all. across the country, emergency count,

they blow us a siren and everybody, doesn't matter what you're doing, if you. working the kids, you got to drop what. you're doing. Everybody has to go back. to the cell block. And so what happens. is, you know, they'll let people use the. restroom, etc., but that siren is gone. And so when me and him are up there. fighting, the siren is gone. So the. officer downstairs doesn't even know. that this is happening upstairs. The. thing that saved his life and saved me. from a life sentence was his radio flew. over the the gallery and landed. And so.

a counselor coming in looks and sees a. radio and was like, "What? What the why. is the radio here?" looks up and sees. the the the confrontation happening. And. so he hits his button, all the officers. come over, they dive on my back, separate us, take me to solitary. So. when they take me to solitary, I'm in. here. I'm I'm raging. I'm, you know, I'm. I'm still in that energy. I'm, you know, and the guy next to me, he's banging on. the wall. He's like, "Yo, look down.". Cuz I can see down to the sail block. now. There's an ambulance out there. And.

basically what happened is when I. punched him, I broke his tracheo. And so. they had to perform emergency surgery on. him in literally in front of the cell. block. And so I was sentenced to an. additional two years and then in what. ended up being 4 and a half years in. solitary confinement. And the only only. reason that man did not die that day is. because his radio flew over. Um, and you. know, it's one of those it's one of. those things where when I began to.

re-calibrate my life and begin to really. transform my life and think about my. life differently, it was another one of. those things where I realized in that. moment I just let my anger dictate my. actions. And no matter whether I thought. he was right or wrong, I was so angry. and so enraged that I just, you know, punched this guy indiscriminately and I. literally could have killed this man. And I would have literally been serving. the rest of my life in prison. And so. when that when that happened, um, you.

know, I I remember they they transferred. me that same day. They transferred me. So I was at that happened at a prison. called Moskegan Correctional Facility. They transferred me to Oaks Correctional. Facility. And the first month, man, I was there, the officers would just come and they. would like talk so much [ __ ] you know, like we're gonna [ __ ] you up and, you. know, we're gonna, you know, you're. going to get yours. Um, and. you know, it was it was it was the most.

vulnerable, you know, um, I felt because. I I know that it happened in there, you. know. I know that they can come in, they. can just say, "Oh, he did this." and. they can come in with the goon squad and. and pepper spray you and beat the [ __ ]. out of you and you're cuffed up and. there's nothing you can really do. um. you know so it was it was very it was. very tense um for about a month or so. you know and then there were officers. who was at the facility where it. actually happened at that transferred. over and they kind of knew me and they.

kind of knew that you know the the the. experience with the officer wasn't just. like I woke up and had a bad day you. know they knew it was an escalation um. and even though you know when I when I. look at it like I'm all about personal. responsib ability and accountability and. like I had to eat that, you know, that I. was I was wrong in in terms of my. reaction to the anger. There were things. I probably could have did differently. Um, but what they told me at that point. was like, you're never going to get out.

of here. You know, you're never going to. get out of here. And I remember the. first time one of them said that to me, I was like I was too naive to really, you know, believe it. You know, I was. like, whatever. you know, I would do a. year or two without here and they all. let me go. And then. I started seeing guys around me who had. been in solitary for 10 years. Um, a. friend of mine, he's actually out now, his name is Peter. He works um I think. he's like a clerk back in Michigan. Um,

but he was in he was my neighbor, he was. in solitary for 10 years. There was a. guy across from me that was like this. guy was one of the most fascinating. people I've ever met. He was a con man. like he was masterful at manipulating. the officers, but he was in for 20. years, you know. He had solitary in. solitary for 20 years. Um, and so when I. started seeing that, I was like, man, I. might I might never get out of here, you. know, and. >> the first two years, you know, I I was.

like kind of resigning myself. I. remember writing my dad this letter. I wrote my dad this letter. and I just said, um, you should just go on with your life. cuz they're never going to let me out of. here. And my dad wrote me back and he said, you know,

I can't even pretend to act like I. understand the world that you're in, but. I will never leave your side. And so that's how resigned I was to the. idea that I was going to die in there. And. it wasn't until um. I was in about two years or so um maybe. about about a little over a year and.

basically I started journaling. and it was inspired by a letter I got. from my son and my son told me that his. mother had told him why I was in prison. and he wrote this letter and he's like. my mother told me that you're in prison. for murder and he said, "Dad, don't. kill. Jesus watches what you do.". When I got that letter,

like, you know, I wasn't I wasn't. religious, you know. I'm not religious. now. I was spiritual, but there was. something about that that just like. struck me like in the most heartbreaking. ways. It's like I have a kid out here. who I have let down and who mother is. telling him stories about me without. context and I don't have a way to reach. out to him and say, "Hey son, here's all. the [ __ ] that happened." Um, and so I.

was like, you know, I got to turn my. life around. And I can tell you like. over the years, every time I got into. some [ __ ] I would just be like, "All. right, this it, you know, this the last. time." Um, it was always these moments. of like, "I'mma do right this time." But. then it was never about me. It was. always like, "I'mma do right so my dad. doesn't have to come see me in jail or. come bail me out or my friends don't. have to come, you know, try to get me.

out of trouble." It was never a real. thing. And so when I started journaling, I started with this essential question. of like, man, how did I end up here? Cuz. up to that point, I didn't I didn't. think of myself as a bad person. Like I. didn't think of myself as like angry. I. didn't think of myself as like I didn't. even think of myself as violent. I thought that. I had just got into some situations that. people provoked me in.

And so I asked this question of like, man, how did you how did you get here? Like you're the smart kid. You know, you're the kid that want to be a doctor. and and an artist and how the hell did. you get here? And so I started going. back and I started asking myself. questions based on when was the first. time you got arrested. and what led to that, you know, and then what happened the. second time and when was the first time. this thing happened and that thing.

happened and who was responsible. And. what I was able to do was the b I was. able to go back and realize that I had. all this trauma. I had all these. traumatic things that happened to me as. a kid, but I also had caused a lot of. hurt. And I did a lot of things that. really was like, "No, actually, you. probably are a bad person." And so, as I. began to write and sort those things. out, I realized I had never. accomplished. I never finished anything.

I started a bunch of things, you know, I. never finished high school. I was like. probably one of the smartest kids in the. class. uh went to job court, got kicked. out before I finished that. Um was going. to go to the military, never followed up. to take the test. So I was a consmate. quitter, you know, I started some stuff. and would never finish. And so I said in. my journal, I said, "Listen, if you're going to turn your life. around, you have to finish one thing.

You have to challenge yourself to finish. one thing." And so I'm looking around. the cell and I'm like, "Okay, what can I. do? I've done all the push-up. challenges, you know, you could do in. solitary. Um, and I was like, you should. write a book, but you got to write the book in 30. days. If you write this book in 30 days, you. can change your life. If you don't, you're going to die in prison. Whoa. And that was my that was my charge to.

myself. And and I I'll tell you like in solitary. there's no like you don't have a a word. processor, typewriter, you can't even. have like a regular ink pen cuz you know. they scared it's going to like sink. somebody or stick somebody. They give you this little flimsy plastic. pen. And so I I remember getting a pen and I. got like a little pad of paper. Um, I. said to myself, like, it's no way possible you're going.

to write a book in 30 days with that. pen. It's just not possible. And I remember saying to myself, this is what you always do. You always. make an excuse. You always make a way to. get out of being accountable. What are you going to do? Are you going. to turn your life around or are you. going to [ __ ] the rest of your life. away? And so I sat there for a while and I was. like, "What if I roll this p this pen up.

in some paper. and I literally took some paper and I. started to roll the pen up so it was. firm enough and it was like the size of. a regular pen." And I wrote that first. book in 30 days. And I knew I would never go back to. prison if I ever got out cuz at that. point I still didn't know if I was. getting out. >> So what did you write? So the first book I wrote was a novel. It was a fiction novel. I I I love.

reading, you know. I was really. fortunate to to really be able to. um to escape through books, you know. So. I was like, well, I want to try to write. a book, you know, and I I I love these. stories I was reading. I was reading. like westerns, Lewis Lamore, um my favorite one of my favorite. authors, uh Donald Goins. So he had. these all these street books like Dope. Fiend and you know uh Black Gangster and. it was like all this kind of underbelly. uh Iceberg Slim Pimp all these stories.

were stories I had read early on and. these guys they were like me like Donald. Go served time in prison. And so I'm. like well if these guys can write a book. then what if I give it a try? And so my. first novel. um was literally about this girl who. played street basketball. her dad was. like a street basketball legend. And so. I wrote that book and I remember just. like. I had never felt. a greater sense of pride in myself.

than the writing that book on a notepad. And I still I still have the original uh. books that I wrote in in solitary. confinement on notepads and on the back. of paper. Uh I'll make I'll send you. some pictures of it. It'll it'll blow. your mind. Um, and I remember writing. that book and I got out. So, I write the. book. This is some wild [ __ ] So, after. I write it, I'm like, "Well, a book. really isn't a book until somebody reads. it." And so, I clam down on my floor and.

I'm like, "Yo, like, somebody want to. read read this book I just wrote." And I. remember this guy at the other end of. the tier was like, "Don't nobody want to. read that [ __ ] This ain't Oprah.". So, so, so, so Joe, here it is. I'm like. I'm trying to like I'm trying to turn my. life around. I'm like, now I got to. shank this cat for disrespecting me. You. know what I'm saying? So, but it was. like it it ended up it ended up when he. said it, you know, my ego, you know? It's like I'm I'm, you know, I am on the. yard like I'm a shot caller. I can have.

you done, right? And then I stepped back. and I was like, no, he actually just. gave me a go. like if I'm going to if. I'm going to take writing serious, I. need to set a goal for what do I want to. happen with my work, you know? Um, and. then another guy, he agreed to to to. read it. And now, so I'm in solitary, so. it's not like I can just walk out the. sale and get a guy to book, right? So, we would make these fish lines out of. our underwear. So, you take all the the.

string out of your underwear, you you. attach that to a toothpaste tube that. you squen all the toothpaste out of and. stuff with paper. So you stuff it with. toilet paper, wet toilet paper. Then. once that dries, it has enough weight. that you can slide it up and down the. tear. And so then sometime we will use. our socks. Most of the time I I use. socks. Um but you just unravel that. string and then you can slide it up. under the the the door and then you can, you know, attach whatever to it. And so. I attached the the the book to it, man. Slid it under the door. And I don't hear.

for this guy like all day. So now I'm. like nervous as [ __ ] cuz I'm like it's. my only copy. You know what I'm saying? Like I done gave the guy my only copy. and he ain't responding but then he came. back to the door man and he was like you. know that's one of the best books I've. ever read and I was like wow it like it. blew my mind for like literally about. five minutes and then I thought about I. was like man he in solitary confinement. he over there bored and [ __ ] It could. have I could have sent him anything. I.

got to send them a recipe and be like, "It's the best chicken soup recipe ever, right?" So, but I was like, "Okay, maybe. if I send it out, you know, send it out. to people." And so, I started sending my. writing out to like I have a brother. He's my he's my stepbrother. And like. out of all my siblings, he's the one of. us that's like always played better. books, you know? He went to school, he. went to college, he's an engineer at. like one of the big three. And and he. just always done it by the books. And I. remember sending it to him and he had. never wrote me in prison. like never.

wrote me in prison. I sent him the book. and I remember I still have his letter. to this day and he wrote back and he. said to me, "This writing is better than. most of the people I went to school with. and I want to help you figure out, you. know, how a path forward." Um, and so. just getting that that affirmation for. somebody who he wasn't in the streets, he wasn't on a prison cell block, he had. did it the right way. like just that. little boost, man, was like, "Okay,

maybe I'm on to something, you know?". And so I wrote my second book um and. like right after that and I gave myself. the same thing. You got to finish it 30. to 60 days. And then I started a third. book, man. And I um I went into the. deepest b of depression that I had. experienced in prison. And it was because by the time I got to. writing book three, I realized I had. this incredible talent and that I always.

been there and that I had let all the. trauma, all the violence, all the street. life overtake my life. And I'm like, I'm. in this environment. I can't give birth. to this dream. Like um so it was it was. the most like getting sentenced was like. my life is over. not being able to actualize a dream. based on a gift I was given.

that was devastating, you know, and so I was going through. this depression and I did what I always. would do which was go back to those. books and you know I was I was getting. heavy into philosophy which was like the. wildest thing is like you know growing. up you know you hear philosophy like oh. that's super boring you know but I was. getting into all this philosophy man and. I I remember going back to James Allen. book and it was really talking about. this idea that you think into existence. the life that you want.

and if you focus your life on negative. thoughts you're going to only produce. negative outcomes. and when I went back and I read my. journals I saw the pattern the pattern. was super clear of like I bought into. this negative narrative so me being in. prison was not a shocker to me when I. went back and read through my journal. And so I said to myself, if this is true. and if this is absolutely true in the. negative, then it has to be true in the.

positive. And I began to just refocus my energy on. getting out of solitary. And I remember saying, if I'm going to get out of here, I need help. Like they're not like the. way it looks on paper, they're not just. going to let me out, you know? And so I. wrote this I wrote this letter to the. warden and it was a super philosophical. letter about the truth. And what I said. to the warden was like when I walked. into prison.

my statement was that I was not going to. follow the rules and that I was hellbent. on destroying my life. And I'm like if. you look at my record. you would know that I've honored my. word. Like at that point I had probably. maybe I think about 34 misconducts and. they range from everything the dangerous. contraband to assault on staff, assault. on inmate, you name it. And. I was like, so the thing you know more.

than anything else is I'm a man of my. word. And what I'm telling you is that. if you if you believe that that to be. true in the negative, I just need you to. believe it to be true in the positive. And if you give me this opportunity to. get out of solitary, I'm going to focus on two things. I'm. going to mentor these other young guys. and I'm going to focus on becoming a. writer. And I sent that letter to the. warden. And the warden literally wrote. me back. And he said, you know, despite.

my hesitation here, I believe you and. I'm going to advocate for you to get. out. And so he began to advocate for me. to get out, but he had to go through. multiple series of like his supervisors. because the assault was on the inmate. And so it took about another two years. before I got out of solitary. >> Well, the assault was on an officer. >> Yeah. On the officer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On an officer. And so it took literally. another two years um before I finally. got out. But once I got out, I took.

those handwritten books and I typed them. all up, you know, and I mentored those. guys and I began to tutor the guys who. they said couldn't read or wouldn't. read. And I found that if I gave them. books that was similar to their life, they would put in more effort. And so. that's what I focused on, you know. Um, and then I typed those books up and I. was like I started to send them I was. sending stuff out. I got like I still. got like a copies of my query letters, man. I was just sending stuff out in the.

dark. Like I sent like Jay-Z was like. the president of like Def Jam at one. point. I was like, "Oh, you should. publish this book cuz you rap about this. [ __ ] I I really live it, right?" I sent. it to him and I was just like, >> "No, he never. got a response." But I did get a couple. of response from like some like. independent publishers and they was. like, "No, we're not interested right. now, but thank you." M. >> and I just kept going at it and then I. was like, you know what, I'm responsible. for my own dream, you know, and so I.

took the money that my my parents sent. me and money I hustled on the yard. I. still had hustles. They just weren't. like illegal hustles. So I wasn't doing. like drug smuggling, but I would sell, you know, the merchandise on on the yard. for twice what it's worth. And I just. took that money, man. I saved it up and. uh I published my first book from prison. in 2008. And um. >> how did you do that? >> So I I bought this book. I ordered this. book called the uh self-help guide to.

self-publishing. And I taught myself everything I needed. to learn about publishing. Like I knew. how to get a copyright, ISBN number. Uh. I had a partner outside who believed in. what I was doing. And I basically would. just be like, "Here's the steps I need. you to take to, you know, execute this.". And found a graphic artist and a. printer. Um, and yeah, and published the. first book. And then the prison sued me. for the cost of my incarceration. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. They tallied it up to like a. million dollars. Yeah. Because basically. what they did is they literally went and. said this is how much it costs for you. to be in prison at every prison you've. been in per day. And so higher security. levels it was about 150 something a day. Lower sec security levels like 70. something a day. And they was like by. the time you get out of prison it'll be. about a million dollars. And so we want. 90% of anything you earn off this book.

They thought I had got a book deal. They. didn't realize I had like. self-published. And I was like, you know, the the thing that that struck. me about that when I went through the. through the uh through the actual. hearing with the judge was I was like, man, you know, I I wrote this powerful. letter to her and I was just like, look, I'm coming home with a conviction. I got. three felonies, right? I got I'm. convicted of uh seconddegree murder, felony firearm, and it's assault on an. officer. And I'm like, if I put that on.

a resume, nobody's going to hire me when I get. out. And I'm like, fair, I get it. Like I if. I'm if I'm in a hiring position and I. saw if that I only saw that, probably. not hiring that person either. So I'm. giving myself a chance, you know? I'm. trying to give myself a chance. Like I. don't want to go back to the streets. I. want to I want to be able to contribute. to society, but I know societyy's not. going to give me an opportunity. So, I'm. creating opportunity for myself, you.

know, and so I went through the court. case and they this is how this is how. they ended up not getting any money, right? So, I backdated a contract to. myself saying that I would only accept. 15% of the proceeds, I mean 10% of the. proceeds once the company recouped its. production cost. So they went from suing. me for for 90% of $15 per book to only. being able to sue me for 90% of $1.50. per book cuz I backdated this contract.

So I used to work in a law library. So I. was like, you know, I know contractual. law is binding and the lawsuit was only. binding as long as I was incarcerated. And so I just made sure that I didn't. make any money, you know, until I got. out. Um, but the letter that I wrote to. the judge, like it was important to say. that is that listen, at that time, you know, it's 15 years. ago. I've been out 15 years now. At that. time, nobody was like really talking.

about second chances if you have a. violent crime, >> right? >> You know, if you had a nonviolent crime, there's chance you can get a job when. you get out. Um, and so I was realistic. I'm like, yo, nobody's going to hire me, so I got to figure out how to make it. happen myself. And so I went through. that lawsuit and and it was it was. tough, you know, it was tough because. I'm like this is the first time I'm. trying to do something legit. Like I'm. I'm you know, I've sold drugs. I've. hustled on the yard. I'm trying to move. into like doing something with my life,

you know? I don't want to be I don't. want to be thugging it out forever. I. don't want to be I don't want to be one. of those people that go in and out of a. prison system, you know? I don't want to. die here. Like I want to and I want to. actually add value. Like I know some. things that I think is helpful in the. community, but if you take this away. from me, then what do you what do you. expect me to do? >> Right. >> You know, >> so they were under the impression that. you had got some crazy big book deal. >> Yeah. >> And so they were just trying to stop it. and try to [ __ ] up your dream.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> God. I mean, I kind of almost can see it. from their side if they hate you, you. know? You know, like, [ __ ] this dude. Let's what can we do to derail this? Or. or you know, if you're a corrections. officer, you're not making a lot of. money. >> at all. >> No. And. >> you're in there and then you think, is. this [ __ ] getting rich? >> Right. >> And then there's also jealousy of. talent. That's a real thing.

>> Absolutely. >> When you find out a person has talent. >> Yeah. And especially if you don't have. any talent, talent is like. >> talent is a gift from God. >> It's like you either have it or you. don't. You can develop some talent, >> but some people have talent. >> There there's something that some people. like there was a video we played the. other day of uh. >> Biggie rapping on the street when he was. 17. >> Yeah. >> You ever seen that video? >> Yeah. >> I mean, you can't teach that. Yeah. >> You can't you can't teach that kind of. power at all. >> at 17. That's a gift. That's a gift.

>> You know, some people just have a gift. And sometimes that gift comes from pain. >> Yeah. >> You know, sometimes that gift comes from. a a life of struggle and hardship. And. it just the emotional turmoil builds. something inside of you that comes out. in your art. And people hate people with. gifts. >> Yeah, >> they really do. They really do. Especially if they hate you already. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't I wasn't their. favorite, you know. But the the crazy. thing is like it that's that's how I.

originally took it and I think that was. some of the impetus to them like filing. the lawsuit. >> But the policy itself is wild. >> cuz like if you if your parent dies and. you inherit their insurance money, >> that same law applies. >> where they can take 90% of that to cover. the cost of your incarceration. >> That's [ __ ] up. But it's it's. discriminate in terms of like how they. apply it and when they apply it, right? And that's where the the the the hate.

came in because. >> how it got initiated was the person in. the mail room was like, "Oh, how dare. this guy write a book. >> and then I'mma send this to the attorney. general and they're going to like sue. you." So it was crazy, man. >> Yeah. >> What is it like the day you get out of. solitary? >> So you did it three times. >> Yeah. two one-year stretches and then. one long. Yeah. Yeah. Um so on that last. one, man, I one I just I didn't I didn't.

believe I was getting out, you know, after a while you started to kind of, you know, start to play with your mind. You know, you see these guys that got, you know, they've been in for 20 years, you know. Um but I remember like going. cuz you go up to these hearings, you get. and it's it feels like you're about to. go and then they come back in 30 days. They're like, "Ah, they they they won't. let you out, right?" Because you got to. go. So it got to it goes like this. When. you had an assault on the officer, you. got to go to the warden and then the. warden goes to like a regional director. and the regional director goes to like. the main director. And so each time I.

would make it like, oh, I got it to the. warden, then the regional shuts it down. Got it to the regional, then the head. shuts it down. So it's like you're. getting your hopes up and you don't know. when it's going to end. You know, it's. kind of like, you know, when the I. remember when the pandemic hit, um, a lot of my friends, you know, I. have a lot of friends from different. walks of life now. Um, a lot of my. friends reached out to me and was like, you know, how do we help people navigate.

these tough times, right? The isolating. feeling of being in in a pandemic. And. what I told him, I was like, the hardest. thing that we're all going to grapple. with is uncertainty of not knowing when. it's going to end. And that's exactly. what happened, right? It's like, all. right, everybody's going to go into. lockdown and then on April 30th, we're. all free and clear. It's like, nope, we're going to stay until March. Nope, I. think we should stay until June. Nope, we So, we just you start to lose that. orientation because you can't put your.

feet on solid ground. That's what it's. like in solitary. You just don't know. >> But way worse. >> Yeah. The extreme of that, right? >> Yeah. >> Um and so when it when it finally. happened, I remember telling the guys on. the on the tier, I was like, if they. ever let me out of here, I'm I'mma. stroll out like George Jefferson. So So and so the the wild thing was like. that last year in solitary. So So they. have these guys come over to to the sale.

block that like clean up. They pass out. the food trays. So they usually come. from the protection unit. The last year. they stopped letting them guys come in. It was just creating too much conflict. cuz they was like they got beef. Now you. over here and guys are trying to get to. them. So it's crazy. So the guys who was. coming over was from general population. and these was like guys I knew, you. know. So like the last year I was there, you know, they would come through, man, they would smuggle me candy bars. I. hadn't had a candy bar in like three. years, you know. And uh I remember, you. know, one of my guys come over. He.

smuggles. He I hear the broom hitting. the door. And I look up and it's like. two flattened down like Snickers that. he's like probably put in his shoes. I. don't know where he put them at. I I. didn't even ask question. I didn't want. to ask questions. Um and I remember like. running them over cold water so they can. solidify. Joe, when I tell you it was like the. them Snickers was like the best like. ever. Like I mean the the details of how. I can taste that given I had been been. gone from it. So I told them guys, I was. like, "Man, they let me out. It's going. to be like George Jefferson strolling.

out of here, you know?" And so that's. literally how it was, man. They popped. that door. I took my little bag of [ __ ] and my. books and threw that thing and I'm I'm. George Jefferson strolling. I'm like, I'm out. I'm like, "Y'all will never see. me." Cuz I had really, you know, I I I I. looked at it like this. I was like, you. know, up to that point in my life, I had. I had let myself down so many times, you. know, I had been beat down by life, the. traumas, the the [ __ ] all the things.

And it was the first time I felt like I. was fighting for myself. Like I felt like I was fighting for. myself. Like I'm I'mma get out of here. All the things I said I'mma do, I'mma. get out and I'mma do them. and it's. going to be the first time that I'm. going to stand on something that really. aligns with that little boy that I. always knew was there and I'm going to. fight for this kid. And so I was so I I. was like I'm I'm moving on up, but I'm.

moving on up into like a higher purpose. in my life. And that's what I got out, man. And and I went to work. I'm like. literally went to work. I took those. books, you know, I typed them up, you. know, I figured out, you know, how to. publish a book. you know, I started. preparing for parole. Um, the year that. I published the book, I went up for. parole that same year, 2008, and um I. was at a prison at this time, they had. transferred me to lower security level. So, you start to work your way down,

which is its own craziness, you know, cuz I'm, you know, I did at that point I. only did hard time. Um, and going down. in security level is like crazy, you. know, cuz you're now you're dealing with. these guys that's coming straight off. the streets. They're like, you know, you're dealing with. there's kind of a hierarchy in the. streets. You know, there's a hierarchy. of mindset in the streets. Like guys who. are usually good at selling drugs, they're they're literally operating at a. different like intellectual frequency.

than guys that are like doing petty. theft, >> right? >> And so now you're you're you're in lower. levels. You're dealing with a lot of. guys who really have should probably be. in an addiction environment versus. actually prison. Um you're dealing with. your, you know, failure to pay child. support, DUIs, um low-level drug offenses, you know, petty theft. So, you're dealing with a. different mindset of guys who are really.

still they're trying to heal, you know, they're just coming fresh off the. streets. Um and it's an open setting. So, I'm going from like being in a sale. by myself to like now I'm in this like. cubicle with with, you know, these. random, you know, guys. Um, but I was. just preparing myself, man. I was like, you know, I I want to get out and I want. to add value to society. And so, you. know, they had transferred me. So, now. at this point, I'm way up. I'm in. northern Michigan over in the upper. peninsula. So, I'm about 12 hours from.

from, you know, my hometown. My dad. comes up, my dad, my stepmom, my oldest. son, and um, man, we going to this. parole hearing. It probably lasted, you. know, maybe a minute. You know, this. lady, she was just like, "Why did you do what you do?" It was. like a very hard line just the facts, you know, and I was just like, "Ah, I'm. not getting out." You know, like I knew. it. Like that that hearing was so fast. She didn't even, you know, listen to my.

dad. It was just very curt and I was. like, man, I'm I'm I'm know I'm not. going home yet, you know. >> And so how many years in was this? >> So at that point I had 17 years in. >> And how much time do you have to wait. before you could apply for parole again? >> So technically it can be anywhere from. 12 months to 24 months. They give what's. called a a flop or a passover. Uh so. they gave me a 12 month and usually you.

go back within about 10 months of that. um to go back to the same process again. and sometime less when they're trying to. like deal with budget issues and kind of. get guys out. So I went back probably. about 8 10 months later. >> What did she say to you when she denied. you parole? >> She didn't say she didn't tell me she. was denying me like in the in the. hearing. It was just the way that the. hearing was handled where it was like. she didn't ask, you know, what are your. plans when you get out? Who were you. before that incident? What led up to.

that incident? Like it was just very, you know, basically you killed someone. and that's it. And I think when I was. even trying to explain to her, I think. she just kind of like shut it down. >> She put it in a category. >> Yeah. Yeah. She shut it down. Like it. was almost like me explaining to her was. making an excuse, you know, that was the. way that she responded. And I was like, man, it was it probably. didn't even take a full 60 days before I. had a decision back, you know, that I.

was being denied. That's got to be a horrible feeling to. just be in a category where. they don't take into account any of the. circumstances, don't take into account. any potential growth or this direction. that you're trying to move your life. into. You're just in a category. You're. a murderer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, that's the that's the. the scariest part about, you know, our.

penal system overall. >> There's no rehabilitation, >> right? >> You have to do it. Well, like your story. is so sim similar to many stories that. I've heard. >> Yeah. >> You know, I've done a lot of uh podcasts. with my friend Josh Dubin. >> Yeah. >> You know, Josh, >> that's the lawyer guy, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. The guy who he used to work. for the Innocence Project. and I works. for the Ike Pearl Mutter uh Center for. Legal Justice and it's mostly dealing. with wrongfully incarcerated people. >> Yeah. >> And you know and some of them.

>> um. >> the stories you just you hear it and it. just. it just kills you. It breaks your heart. and just try to imagine what it's like. to be that person. >> Yeah. dealing with uh corrupt DAs, corrupt prosecutors, corrupt everything. Corrupt cops. >> Yeah. >> And people just get railroaded because. they need to hang a conviction on. somebody. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> It's one of the scariest parts of the. system. So, what like one of my best.

friends name is Calvin. Calvin did 24. years for a crime he didn't commit and. he's out now. Um, and he has one of the, man, he has one of the most incredibly. positive spirits of anybody I've met. given what he's been through. And. the hardest part about any of this, you. know, it's exactly what you say. It's. like when you're labeled for the rest of. your life,

um, it hits you, you know, because it. impacts your ability to contribute. And. what people don't know is like 90% of. people incarcerated will get out at some. point. And we have to decide who we who. do we want to be as a society. Like do. we want to give people a second chance. to prove themselves? And like I'm not. I'm not a. I'm not a person who. has a mindset of like you just throw the.

doors open and let everybody out. Um, I know again that I was fortunate and I. was lucky to be literate and I was lucky. to have read books that led to me really. putting in the hard, arduous work of. reimagining a life for myself. That's. tough work that that none of us gets out. of there without our scars. You know, there's there's things about. me right now that I can directly. pinpoint, oh, this is because of what I.

went through in solitary. Um, there are some things that I was. able to take out of that environment and. turn into a positive. Like, you know, sometime people would hear my story and. they'd be like, "Oh, well, solitary. actually worked out for you." And I'm. like, I'm like, "No." I'm like, "There's a. difference between solitary and. solitude.". And like solitude is something that I. think that all of us should explore more. broadly in our lives. >> Um we all just need time to get away. from even the most positive aspects of.

our life. Sometime you need to step back. because it allows you to have even. deeper gratitude. >> Yeah. >> Um but I really was just lucky man. I. was lucky to be to be willing to go on a. journey. >> but also to have the skill set to read. and you know to read books of like hey. it doesn't have to end like this. you. know, you can you you don't have to be. pinpointed to one horrible moment in. your life, you know, and and and. >> and there's the accumulative nature of. the things that led up to that moment.

It doesn't excuse you. Like I don't I. don't make excuses for the decision I. made that night. I just want to be clear. about that. There's like a all these. causal factors that lead to us becoming. who we are in whatever capacity. Um, but that's the tough stuff we don't. we don't like to grapple with because. it's not efficient, you know? It's not. easy to to to figure out like I mean. it's the facts of it is like it's not. easy, right? It's not easy to be like, >> "Okay, this person killed somebody, so. we should give him a second chance.".

like, but there are tons of us who have. gotten out and who have done the work. before we got out and that we're. contributing in a way that most people. who've never went in probably contribute. and like we those stories should be. lifted up. We should be. >> probably have an appreciation of freedom. that's just different for everybody. else's. >> Oh, absolutely. Like I I think there's. the appreciation for me. It's the. appreciation of freedom, but it was also falling in love with the.

beauty of my mind. Like you can't you can't. like you can't underestimate that value. of really understanding like as a human. being that you can contribute to the. world in positive or negative and that. you can you can live your life in such a. way that it honors what it really means. to be human to be complex to be able to. discover something new about yourself. every day. Um,

like that's what that's what like for me. freedom is that you know what I'm. saying? Freedom is like, you know, the. the the the book that I've recently. written is called How to be free. And you know what? What really inspired. me to write that book is I've met so. many people out here in society who's. never been in a prison cell who are. psychologically, emotionally, and. mentally incarcerated. And they're incarcerated by heartbreak.

They're incarcerated by shame, grief, anger. I mean, I've met people who have. it all. They have the best job in the. world. They have more money than they. will ever be able to spend. And there's. a thing from their life that does not. allow them to be fulfilled. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? And so it's it's. the there is that appreciation post. incarceration that you know you just. >> I mean 15 years later I still revel in.

moments like a kid, you know, like I'm. like I'm like a kid, man. I'm like. >> that's beautiful. >> Yeah. I'm curious about life, you know? >> We should all keep that kid, >> man. Protect it, too. >> Yeah. >> You know, and don't get hard. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, life forces you to get. hard in a certain way. And I'm sure your. life forced you to get hard on a way. that most people can't comprehend, but. the fact that you can hang on to that. childlike joy of things.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's the curiosity, you. know? I'm I'm like the biggest nerd. Uh. I love it, man. It's it's like I always. tell my son, I'm like, I'm the coolest. nerd you'll ever meet. You know what I'm. saying? Because it's there there's a. thing like I you know, I got out like. two years after I was a I was a fellow. at MIT Media Lab. You got to imagine like how wow that. was, Joe. Like I'm going from like the. barbarity of prison. >> 24 months. >> Yeah. And now I'm at like the most. technologically advanced school in the.

world. >> And I always say it was like Fred. Flintstone going into an episode of the. Jetsons cuz it's like. where I got there it was like robots. were like I mean it was it was crazy. Like I mean they they had these cars. that like parked themselves and I was. just my mind was blown you know. And I. remember one time being there and the. director was like he can tell I felt. like out of place. And he was like, "Don't worry about it. You can. contribute." Like you can contribute. It.

doesn't matter where you come from, you. can contribute. And I remember how that. stuck with me of like, man, I can. contribute. You know, I was. >> Who were you doing there? So, I was. working on a project called the. Atonement Project where we were using. technology and art to facilitate. restorative justice conversations. Um, it's super hard to talk about hard. things, you know, um, when it comes to. violence, and it comes to people who. have been victims of violence. And I. felt like art and technology provided a.

vehicle to kind of bridge that gap, you. know? And I remember this one story, this is like super funny. So I'm there. and one time I'm in one of the labs. So. they would do these demo days. You can. go around to all the labs and like watch. all this crazy technology. And there was. this one kid, man. He was working on. something in in in the auto industry. And he was trying to get this um it was. like one of those screens to kind of. perform in a very particular way. And I. was just watching him. I was like, man, he just keep bumping up against like it.

was so obvious to me like what the. problem was. like if you just move this. over like a a quarter of an inch is. probably going to work the way that you. envision it, you know? And I remember. saying that to him and and just seeing. him like it was almost like a light bulb. just fired off in his head and I was. just like, man, that was that was wild. cuz this is a smart kid. You know, this. kid is brilliant, right? And so I said, um, I want to do a prison hack here and. I want to challenge these students and. faculty to solve some problems based on.

the problems we had to solve in prison. And so they said, "Yeah, you should do. it." And so I literally told them all. the things that I wanted and I came up. with five design challenges. And one of. them was you got to design a tattoo gun. out of a tape player motor, a good tire. string, and an ink pen. You have to make. what we call a stinger, which is like. kind of like so you have a hot pot, right? So in prison, in order to like. heat up our noodles, we had to, you. know, especially if you're in the old.

prisons, excuse me, if you're in the old. prisons, there's no. there's no microwaves. So you have to. figure out how to heat them up. And so. we would make what's called a stinger, which we would take an extension cord, cut that up, and then you attach like. nail clippers to it, and you got to. splice them, and then you put it in the. water and plug it up, and then it heats. your water up. And so now you can make. your noodles, your coffee. >> You're just putting a cord right into. the water. >> Yeah. But if you do it, you got to put. it in first before you plug it up. because if you if you like plug it up. first.

>> Yeah. If you plug it up first, then it. blows the power out of the cell block. Now you got a whole another problem. Um, and so we would, that's how we would. heat up our noodles, our coffee, oatmeal, whatever. And then I had them, um, if back back in the day, we used to. get these little radio. They're not boom. boxes, but they're like little G radios. or something. And they they disable, you. know, you from playing, you know, your. tape player to them because there's no. tape player attached. So, you have to. figure out how to connect that to the. big radio and then it plays from your.

tape player through the big speaker. And. then I had them u make a lighter out of. batteries and wire and then to make a. fish line out of the same materials I. told you about earlier, the string out. of just socks. And um and so I gave him. like three hours to complete these. challenges. And we're going for three. hours. They blew the power out of MIT. Media Lab. Like it's like the best. It. was like a It felt like a It felt like. an intellectual victory. I was like, "Yes." Like these super smart kids, they.

like blew the power. And so we get to. the three hours. I mean, one of the kids. burnt himself. I got videos like burnt. himself like trying to get the lighter. and they almost got the tape player. I. think if they had probably about three. more hours they figured all this stuff. out. But I had two goals with that. One, the nerd in me wanted to really. understand the science of like, okay, why does this scientifically work? You. know, and then the second part was that. if they would have accomplished this. with these meager little tool set, they. would have been applauded and people.

would have said, you know, that was. brilliant and that you're a genius and. that you're incredibly intelligent. because you were able to take these. little scrappy things and make something. out of them. And the reason I wanted. them to validate that is because I. believe inherently that there are people. in prison who possess ingenuity, innovative, you know, abilities, intelligence, all these things. And we. throw people away, you know, we. literally throw people away. And I would. have been one of those people that have. been thrown away had I not had the. ability to write. And so, you know, it's.

those those type of things where you you. think about these other prison systems. Like I've visited prisons in I've been. to Germany's prisons, London, I've been. to uh to Ghana and you you you see. like how different it could be, you. know, what we're capable of when you. give people an opportunity. Um, I don't. I don't I I can tell you in my time, you. know, of almost 20 years in prison, I've met.

I've met some bad people. I met some people who. are scary people. You know, I was in prison with a couple. of different serial killers, serial. rapists. Um, but they are the extreme minority. the extreme minority. Um, most of the guys that I met that I. served time with. were trying to hustle their way to a.

life. Um, they come from high levels of. of, you know, parental abuse, sexual. abuse, drug abuse. Um, I met a lot of. people that had real psychological. issues. I don't know what the. politically correct term is nowadays. I. feel like we got to always have a. correct term. Um, but people who were. really like screwed up. Um, it wasn't I. I didn't meet a lot of.

inherently evil people, but I have met. some evil people and you know it like. it's not even a doubt in your mind of. what you're dealing with when you meet. these people. Um, but we're we're lazy, man. you know, we're lazy because if we. can just slap a title on you and just. categorically say like everybody's, you. know, you convicted of a murder, you're. a murderer and that's everybody. It's. not everybody's story. All of us don't. arrive there, you know, and and it's and.

it's, you know, I the time that I did. was the consequence of the choice I. made. And I accept that, you know. I. accept that. that I accepted that came. with. I even accept now, you know, we're. talking 34 years later, there's. penalties and consequences for that one. moment in my life that I live that I'll. live with forever. There's the there's. the personal. reality, right? Like like that doesn't. that never goes away, you know? Like. that that.

understanding of what damage I've caused. to this family is something that never. goes away. Um, and then there's the. societal consequences. that, you know, at this stage in my. life, they're not the same as they was. the first day I walked out, but they remind me of exactly what. society thinks of me when I deal with. them, you know. Um, and I think that we.

should be able to earn the trust of. society back, you know. I think you got. to put the work in, you know. I don't. think that anybody should just be handed. a free card. Um, but I think you should. be given opportunity to prove yourself, you know, that you can contribute and. that you want to contribute. And I can. tell you like the guys that I I deal. with, man, there's so many of these guys. that can contribute if we just stop. throwing people away. >> Yeah. The system is just set up to. punish. They're set up to just lock.

people up so they're off the streets so. other people don't have to deal with. them. But they are, like you said, they. are going to get out, most of them, and. they're not going to be rehabilitated. And often times they're they're. hardened, and it's often times even. worse. >> Absolutely. >> And there's so little effort put into. how to fix things, how to how how do you. make it better, what what what do you do. that you can help these people. contribute. >> and you can have them come out of jail. actually a better person. >> Yeah.

>> Which is possible. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I think. you have to look at the system. holistically, right? Because it's not. even just the the men and women serving. time to suffer. Like the officers who. who work there, it's a brutal job, man. >> Yeah. >> They suffer. Like they're not happy. people. >> Oh, no. >> You know, and and and and they're not. they're not happy because their job. forces them to have to have a persona of.

toughness. You know, you have to the way that it. was originally designed is you have to. have a wall up between your humanity and. the people that you're tasked with. policing, >> right? >> And that makes it tough because you have. to come into this world for most of the. time 60 hours a week. Most of those. people have to make overtime in order. to, you know, provide for their. families. And you got to wear you got to. wear a mask for 60 days out of the week. And then you got to come in and you got.

to see people, you know, at their worst. more than just the moment you arrest. them, right? Like a police officer on. the street, they're arresting a lot of. times people at their worst moment, then. they passed them off. Correctional. officer, you walk into this environment. every day. You have to deal with. somebody who is in a cycle of their. worst moment. and the violence, the. chaos, the the smell, um the lack of tools and resources where. you have to untangle the chaos. You have.

to untangle the violence. You have to. jump into the fray when a guy is. butchering another guy and you have to. go home with that. You know, you have to. carry that home. And it's and it's the. higher security levels that's happening. all the time. Somebody's getting stabbed. on the yard all the time. you know, somebody's getting maimed and getting, you know, blunged, you know, on a. regular basis and then you have to deal. with that, you know. Um, it's the. interesting thing about how, you know, at one point I didn't have empathy for.

correctional officers. You know, they. were the enemy like you're holding me in. prison, not not realizing I'm really the. one that's responsible for me being. there. But over time, man, I I remember. I started to get empathy in the craziest. of ways, man. you know, this officer. came to do a strip search and I refused. the strip search. I was, you know, I was. in that rebellious state and I just. remember like thinking to myself after. that like, man, this is his job. You got. to come and look at somebody's ass. You.

know, it's fat asses, skinny asses, hairy asses. This is your job. How can. you be a happy person? >> Right? You can't be happy. Like you the. guy go in the visiting room and you see. this guy out here with his kid and his. family and when he leaves there you have. to strip search this person. So you have. to put this armor up between. your own humanity. and that's your you for 40 hours a look. a week you're looking at asses.

>> That got to suck. You know what I'm. saying? So I'm like dude like of course. you become an [ __ ] like how how. could you not, right? >> Yeah. >> Um but you know, I I think that's where. we got it wrong. We've we've kind of. created this kind of idea that it's us. against them. >> And in reality, it's not cuz they're. spending a lot of time in that. environment. >> Yeah. They're in prison, too. They just. can leave at night. >> all day. >> Yeah. It's a different kind of prison. because they're in control.

>> and they can quit. But a lot of them, they're probably. imprisoned by their bills, too. So, they. can't quit. >> Absolutely. >> And in a lot of the environments where. these prisons are are. located, there's no other jobs. >> No, that's the only industry. >> Yeah. >> That's the only industry. >> The fact that prison is an industry is. also insane. The fact that privatized. prisons are an industry. When I found. out that prison guard unions lobby to. keep drug laws on the books.

>> Yeah. >> I remember that moment. The the moment. that I found that out, I was like, that. is evil. >> Yeah. >> You're using people as like batteries to. generate money. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Private prisons are they want more. people in there because that's how they. make money. >> Yeah. >> It's like if you're a chicken farmer, you want more chicken, right? Right. >> If you're a people farmer, I mean, you're essentially a people farmer, >> which is. >> evil. >> Absolutely. And you think about like the.

the cost of phone calls. Like before I. before I got out of prison, we had. finally fought to get the phone calls. down. I mean, they were charging $15. >> And how much did you make in prison? >> Like my the the the best paying job I. had in prison was. I think when I worked in the law. library, I made about $54 a month. >> And every phone call is $15. >> $15. Holy [ __ ]. >> And so most people in there make, you.

know, I worked in the kitchen. I started. off at 17 cent an hour. >> You got to work a week to make a phone. call. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's insane. >> But that's if you got a what's. considered a good job, right? But the. average job you're making 17 cent. >> an hour in the kitchen. >> Oh my god. >> Um, and a phone call is $15. >> $15, right? So you make, you know, so you can't talk to your family, you. know. And then we finally got it down to. like about $3.

15 minutes. Um, >> still if you make it 17 cents an hour. >> Yeah. Take you forever to make a phone. call. >> That's insane. >> And like even now like I I keep money on. my phone for my friends who are. incarcerated to call me, you know, and I. just like I'll put, you know, a few. hundred on there and then it's like, you. know, every time you call, you can tell. how much money is gone cuz they're like, "Yo, you got $150 left." And it's just. like, geez. like man, you know, and I'm. a lot of instances I'm their only. connection to their family and their.

kids. >> Do you do you know the Freeway Ricky. Ross story? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. >> Do you know Ricky? >> Yeah. So, we we've met um I I wouldn't. say that we're like good friends, but. we're cordial anytime we've seen each. other, but we've met I want to say at. least four or five times. Um but yeah, wild story, man. >> I love that dude. Yeah, >> I've had him on a few times. Yeah. >> Um but he learned how to read in prison. and then became a lawyer and realized. that they wrongfully convicted him under.

the three strikes rule. >> Yeah. >> And that's how he got out. >> Yeah. No, that happens so much to people. though. Yeah. >> Like they can imagine they overcharge. you. >> That's one of the things that I would. love to see changed is like. >> there is no accountability for. prosecutors when they overcharge people. or wrongfully charge, >> right? It's up to you who's being. charged to figure it out into which is. crazy, right? Like the onus shouldn't be. on a person. >> Well, it's a crime. Yeah. >> It should be a crime.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Cuz that's like crazy to think. that you can wrongfully charge a person. or overcharge. >> Well, that's the thing is like they. don't think of you as a person anymore. >> Yeah. >> Once you're a convict, you're not a. person anymore. And they can do things. to you that should be illegal. It should. be a crime, but they could get away with. doing it. >> Yeah. And it impacts like. everybody. Like right now in this. country, there's probably about 150. million people who have someone. incarcerated or who have had someone. incarcerated. Like it's no longer, you.

know, when I was coming up, you know, I. came up in during the height of the the. war on crime or war on drugs, right? So. I come up through that era. I came up. selling drugs when crack first exploded. in our communities. And you know the. prison population went from I think you. know the couple hundred thousand to 2. million. >> and which is insane. >> which is wild right in a short amount of. time. >> Time. How old are you? >> I am I'm 53. >> Okay. I'm a little older than you but I.

I remember when all that happened. I. remember like all a sudden crack was on. the street and it was like. >> Yeah. >> What? How did this happen? >> How did this happen? Literally. overnight. >> Yeah. And we find out through Freeway. Ricky how it happened. Yeah. >> It was our own government. Yeah, absolutely. >> Which is [ __ ] insane. >> Crazy. >> Not our own government for real. For. real, but people in our government that. are cowboys and renegades and people who. are. >> criminals. >> Absolutely. >> Who realize they can get away with this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And in Ricky's case, they were using it. to fund a war. >> Yeah. >> The controversy, right? >> Crazy. I remember hearing about that. [ __ ] in the news. >> Yeah. >> When I was a kid going, "What? Yeah. >> What happened? But I didn't at the time. I didn't know that it was being funded. by selling drugs in Los Angeles. I had. no idea that was but I remember. >> that it was in the news and Oliver North. was in the news and and they were this. was when Reagan was old and so he's like.

I can't recall like he just said he. didn't remember. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> Convenient. Yeah. >> It was wild. It's it's horrible to think. cuz you. You know, as a boy, I remember thinking, well, the government's good and they're. looking out for you and they're the good. people and the cops are the good people. and all the prisoners are there. It's. because they're bad. >> They're the bad. Yeah. That's that's the. narrative, right? And like I grew up the. same way. You know, my dad was in the. Air Force. You know, I used to go to the. Air Force base and you know, all of his.

friends were in the Air Force and you. know, you grow up and on my neighborhood. block there was, you know, this woman. used to be a police officer and the. firefighters and the doctors and so you. grow up seeing this ideal of what you. think is good and bad and then you see. this this explosion of this drugs like. that same neighborhood. You know, I I I. wrote this story a while ago called The. Trees No Longer Give Fruit. And it was. about my neighborhood. And what I was.

writing about is that I grew up on a on. a block where every backyard there was. some type of fruit tree, pear tree, peach tree, apple tree. Um, and then. crack came and it killed my. neighborhood. in these manicured lawns. in these houses where there were two. families, I mean two parent families and. you know professionals and you know and. and you felt like a community. This drug. came in and it was literally like a bomb. had been detonated. And so that early. narrative of like inner city kids as the.

the what they call them super predators. Uh that was the narrative back then. Now. >> was Biden. >> Yeah. >> Biden said that on TV. >> Yeah. Yeah. Clinton, Hillary Clinton. She was like super predators, right? And. >> I was in prison when they when they when. that crime bill took college out. I was. averaging a 4.0. >> and they said that it took. rehabilitation out of prison. You know. that I think it was 94 crime bill like. Biden and Clinton passed. And like I.

remember like we went to school and the. professor came in and was like this is. the last semester they were taking it. out because of this crime bill. And so. when you when you look at who was. villainized back then who filled prison. back then the face of that was black. males like that was the dominant face of. of you know who you would think is in. prison. Now 30 years later that's. changed. It's changed with opioids. It's. changed with fentanyl. It's changed with. like poverty in these rural areas. And.

now the prison population looks vastly. different. Like there's more I was just. in the juvenile lockup uh last week. week I was in Rhode Island and like this. room of these kids like 10 kids and two. different rooms and I mean it looked. like the United Nations of Diversity. like it was like. literally like three white kids over. here couple of Latin over here, black. over here and I was like [ __ ] you know. and these are babies right there. >> And isn't it crazy that that's also. drugs? >> Yeah, absolutely.

>> And it's also corporations. Yeah. >> See, the thing about Detroit, most. people don't know that Detroit, um, up. until they started moving jobs overseas, Detroit was the third wealthiest city in. the world. Absolutely. >> In the world. >> Absolutely. >> In the world. >> The world. Yeah. >> Which is crazy. >> To think that inside of a lifetime, Detroit goes from being one of the. wealthiest cities in the world to one of. the poorest cities in America. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's crazy. Yeah.

>> And just because they wanted to make. some more money. >> Yeah. >> They didn't want to pay the union wages. They didn't want these factory workers. making a great living. They wanted all. the money. >> Yeah. >> They completely like almost destroyed. that city. >> like a bomb. Just like crack. >> Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately, it's a. resilient city and. >> it's bouncing back. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's bouncing back. >> Yeah. >> It's nice to know. >> Yeah. But [ __ ] the fact that that can. happen.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Know, it was it was. unbelievable like to to think that it. would happen on our watch, you know. I. remember when I when I came home, >> I was so optimistic coming out of. prison. I mean, you got to imagine like, you know, walking out everything. It's. just like, oh, it's going to be. exciting. You think that life really has. advanced and people had moved on. And I. remember just going through some of the. neighborhoods and I was like, you know, these were these were beautiful blocks. from these beautiful homes and I would. go through some of the neighborhoods and. this one house left on the block and.

it's like the other house that are still. in different, you know, states of. disrepair were falling apart. And it was. like the most heartbreaking thing to. think about. There's kids that this is. the block that they go down to go to. school. And then this was the other. thing that was mind-blowing. I went into. the schools and I'm like it's in worse. condition than the prison I just left. And like that talks about where people. are investing to your point of like we. start investing into like. >> keeping people in prison or putting. people in prison versus like.

>> education facilities to keep people out. of prison. >> Yeah. >> So, >> but also how do we have these same. communities decade after decade after. decade that are deeply impoverished and. filled with crime? Yeah. >> And no no. no course correction, nothing being done. on a on a federal level to try to. correct that. >> It's it's just and I think there's a. problem in this country. I mean, it's a.

it's a good problem in some ways that. you have to get reelected if you want to. be president. You have four years. You. have four year terms. But because of. that, they just think about getting. elected. And then once they're in, then. then they think about getting reelected. >> And the last thing you want to do is do. anything controversial that might take. 15, 20 years in order to reap the. rewards of it generational, you know, and like if you're trying to. say like, hey, we've got to do. something. I know we're we're investing.

so much money overseas. We invest so. much money into these nonprofits. overseas and all these different things. We're doing regime change and untold. billions of dollars. What we got to. invest in these cities and try to make. less prisoners, less people. incarcerated, less people that start off. in a terrible position. But those that's. like an unpopular thing to try to run. on, man. Because. >> the people that are just trying to. protect their money,

>> you know, there's so many people in this. country that think of about people in. prison. They don't even think of them as. prisoners. They want them in prison. because then they're not out in the. street inconveniencing their life. They. don't want to deal with like what? Why? Why does someone you think you're. different? You're not different. If you. lived in that environment, you would be. in there, man. We're all the same exact. [ __ ] thing. >> Absolutely. >> We vary genetically. We vary. biologically, but not that much. >> Not that much. No,

>> not that much. If you lived in a. terrible environment and grew up in a. terrible household and dealt with. terrible pressures, you would be in. there, too, man. We would all be in. there, too. And the the callousness of. people to like look the other way. >> Is, you know, it's a blight on our. society. That callousness that's that. this we're supposed to be the most. advanced society that's ever existed. But yet we still, which is crazy, right? We're we're the United States of America. is supposed to be the most prosperous,

advanced society on earth. And we have. the highest level of prisoners. Yeah. >> We have more people in prison in the. United States than any other country by. a long shot. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's really. interesting because like you know I I. don't I don't do a lot in the world of. politics outside of criminal justice. And what I've what I've learned about. this particular space with politics, it. is the one space where in the last I.

would say the last 15 20 years where. there has been some common ground and. there's been a little bit more courage. than than I've ever seen in my lifetime. Um for years people would not touch. incarceration other than saying let's be. tough on crying, >> right? It took it took a you know work. of a lot of incredible people a lot of. storytelling. um to start to shift it to where it's. the one issue where you can get some.

type of bipartisan buy in and and I. think that the facts of it is just to. your point where there are certain. segments of society that. we have not dealt with like the gun. violence where I come from. is something that most people can't even. begin to imagine like in my family in. family like I mean I mean like my not my. family of friends but in my family at a. minimum there's been eight or nine of us. who have been shot. We don't talk about gun violence in an.

inner city in the cycle of it because. the lack of treatment for a gun related. trauma. I didn't know what PTSD was. until I was already in prison. I didn't. realize that the things that I felt at. 17 years old when I got shot were. actually real things and I wasn't making. an excuse for being paranoid and that I. wasn't being irrational for thinking. that I had to carry a gun and protect. myself when both my brothers had already. been shot and many of my friends had.

been murdered um through gun violence. So So those choices as a kid while they. were illegal, they weren't necessarily. irrational. Um, and so we don't we haven't done a. good job at like being just honest, right? When I started to see the shift. with criminal justice was when opioids. begin to penetrate the suburbs. When you. start to see kids who normally can come. into a neighborhood, buy some cocaine,

go and party, and they're fine to go. back to the suburbs. It was easy to just. be like, "Oh, well those black kids over. there are selling cocaine." and and you. know they should be arrested. When you. start dealing with this higher level of. opioid addiction that doesn't just stay. in the hood that it really carries over. to the suburbs, >> then people start to be able to see. their own kids and their grandkids. And. now that you seeing that I guess over. 30% of the prison population are white,

you're starting to see people say, "Well, wait a minute. This isn't just a. criminal orientation. there's a deeper. problem in society which is one is this. drug addiction that we don't really deal. with um because there's so much shame. attached to it. So I can tell you like. sometime I do these talks all over. I'm. speaking at corporations, non like you. name it. I've I've been at these spaces. I cannot tell you how many parents. that work incredible jobs in government,

in state, in corporate come up to me and. pull me to the side and say, "Thank you. for speaking your truth. I wish I can. tell people what I'm going through in my. family right now. I wish I can talk. about why my husband has not been in the. household because of his addiction. The shame attached to it. >> Yeah. >> You know, the shame if it doesn't fit. the narrative that you've been handed, >> the shame attached to it. Yeah. You. know, and and even,

>> you know, being being a black male in. America who comes from the hood, >> there is there is u there's value to. that narrative, right? To leaning into. that. Like if I'm, you know, you think. about the black comedians, right? We always talk about our trauma and our. pain because that narrative has cultural. value. You know, if we lean into as much. as we can lean into like the elements of. us that's from the hood in a smart way, in a funny way, etc. We'll always get.

that laugh. We'll always get that, >> you know, that sense of like, oh yeah, y'all do have a different reality, right? Um because that's the narrative. and that narrative has endured from. generation to generation and I think now. we're just getting to a space where and. I mean there's tons of work to do like. to undo all the damage that's happened. in the system is going to take us. another 50 years. You know we we we'll. be lucky if we catch up to Germany or uh. Norway or one of these more.

forwardthinking countries like in the. next four or five decades. >> How do they handle things over there? I'll tell you was two things that I was. struck by when I was there. At one point I was with I was with this. guy named Scott Budnick. I think you may. know Scott. He produced The Hangover. Uh. so Scott does incredible work in. criminal justice. He's one of always. always telling me he should get a Nobel. Peace Prize. Um but Scott and I, we were. over there with another group of people. and they were doing like a bunch of. panels and both of us basically got.

bored. We was like we should like go see. if we can run around the prison, right? So we just kind of peeled off and you. know we're we're talking to the guys who. are serving time. They're showing us. their sales. They don't even know I had. been in prison but they're you know. they're excited to have visitors. So. they're like you know and I went into. this one sale and I remember just. standing there and I was by myself and. the the warden came up this woman and. she was like are you okay? And I was. like, "Yeah, I was just like caught in. the caught in the thought like I spent a. lot of time in prison back in the States.

and I spent four and a half years in a. cell that's probably about half this. size." And I was like, you know, I'm in. solitary confinement. I was locked down. for all this time. And this woman. visibly started to weep. And she said to. me, "We would never do that to one of. our citizens.". And that struck me when she said, "We. would never do that to one of our. citizens." It made me realize that in. America. when you are convicted, your identity as. a citizen is taken away,

>> right? >> If you even had it, >> you can't vote. >> You can't vote. You know, you can't. travel freely to other places. >> Um, you know, there's still restrictions. that I have, you know, and this is 15. years later and like I can't I can't, you know, and this is where it'll hit. you, right? So, my wife and I and my son. will travel and my wife, she's. incredible. She's a great leader in the. world. She's doing like I mean some of. the most amazing work in the world. And. we'll be traveling and she has TSA. And.

there's always this moment when we're. traveling together when we get there. And the TSA agent will be like, "Oh, ma'am, you can go in that line. You got. TSA pre-check.". And it's always like we always instantly. look at each other and she's like, "No, I'm, you know, I'm I'm going to go with. my husband.". And is it the biggest problem in the. world for us to have? Absolutely not. You know, but is there a dig at my. dignity, you know, as a husband, as a. father, every time we have to have that.

look and that exchange, >> right? And I have to think about as a. taxpaying citizen that I I pretty much. pay more taxes than probably 99% of the. country and that I don't have access to. all the things that comes with being a. taxpaying citizen. >> and that I can actually use clear and. move through effortlessly with my clear. >> I can use clear, >> but you can't use TSA free. >> What the [ __ ] is that? >> It's crazy, right? Um things like. insurance, like home insurance. I bought.

a house in LA in 2019. and I didn't realize that a felony can. impede you from paying house insurance. and it was after I already bought which. we know that's usually people's biggest. investment. >> is their home. >> right. >> what does me having a felony from 30. years ago. >> have to do to build my ability to pay. insurance on a house I already bought. >> you know and so it's like these. >> insurance is such an evil scam. >> yeah you You know, especially in.

California, it's brutal. >> Oh, it's so evil. It's so crazy. They I. mean, California, there's a new fire. >> I don't know if they put it out yet. Lagouna Beach. Did they put that fire. out, Jamie? >> Was raging yesterday. >> Oh, jeez. I didn't even know that. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, >> you can't get fire insurance. >> Yeah. >> You know, I have friends who have houses. now that they can't get insured for fire. and they're like, "What the [ __ ] do I. do?". >> Yeah. What do I do? Yeah. >> And they can't get out. They don't have. enough money to get out. And then it's. hard to sell your house now if you're in. an area like I have a friend who's.

trying to sell her house, >> but it's in an area that's too close to. Laurel Canyon and Laurel Canyon burns. and nobody wants to buy a house there. >> Yeah. >> It's like what the [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> Here it is. 13-year-old boy arrested for. brush fire that led to evacuations. >> Fireworks. >> Um, did they put it out? >> I think so. >> So, what are they going to do to him, though? >> Oh, he's a kid. >> That's what I'm saying. Like, >> he's a [ __ ] kid. I started a fire. when I was a kid. >> I started a big big ass fire for deal.

with fireworks. >> Fireworks. >> Yeah. I think I was So I was living in. Jamaica plane, >> which is uh um at the time it was a bad. neighborhood outside of Boston. I think. it's supposed to be gentrified now. >> Oh wow. >> So now that was I was uh 13, right? Yeah, I was 13. >> So that was his age. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And we uh we were lighting. firecrackers in this field and it.

started off just like this little fire. and we're stepping on the fire and then. the wind blew and we're like, "Oh shit.". And then it just ra it raged through. this field. >> and we ran out into the street and just. by [ __ ] sheer luck found a cop. >> and then um we told the cop the cops. like get the [ __ ] out of here. like we. told them what we did. We were like, "Wire, we're sorry." Right. And um they. wound up putting it out.

>> This is uh said in a statement, "He was. not accepted to Orange County Juvenile. Hall due to absence of injuries or. immediate threat to buildings." Okay. >> Yeah. So, they. >> he's a kid. They just said, "You're a. kid. You [ __ ] up.". >> Yeah. >> Well, that's good. >> Yeah. I mean, um, but we got out of. there and then we came back like the. next day and we saw all the [ __ ] we. burnt and was like, "Oh my god." It was. like this huge area that was burnt. Luckily, no one lost their life, but it. was just sheer luck. >> Yeah. >> You know, it could have totally been.

next to someone's house. Totally. >> Yeah. Propane tank, anything. >> Yeah. Anything. You never know. >> Or y'all could have actually got like. seriously like crazy. >> Yeah. I mean, it was just luck. >> Yeah. >> Dumb young kids. You leave them alone. The the fact that any kid could go buy a. lighter. >> Yeah. Yeah. Some matches. >> anywhere. You just you buy a lighter and. you can just light things on fire. When. you're a kid, you do. Yeah. You want to. light things on fire. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's uh there's a million times in. my life I could have done something. stupid and gone the wrong way. And just.

by sheer luck, I didn't. And you know, when I talk to people like yourself who. obviously are very intelligent and have. a lot to contribute and you just imagine. like that that could have been me, man. It could have been any of us. >> That's the thing that people need to. really get in their head. It could be. any of us. >> Absolutely. >> Any of us. And leaving these communities. the way they are and not doing anything. to try to fix them is to me it's.

the biggest. failure of our government other than you. know interventional war you know. interventional foreign interventionist. foreign policy and starting wars that. are unnecessary and costing lives which. is the worst thing we've ever done and. that's the next worst. >> Yeah. is that we don't do anything about. it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think. it goes back to what you was talking. about earlier with talent, like how much. talent are we leaving on the table, you.

know, like when I was just there in. Roite and so I went to this juvenile. program over there and and you know, the. reason I went is these kids, >> they're working in a music program and. they've like gone from like getting into. all types of trouble to like now they're. using art to like, you know, really. shift how they think about life. And so. I was like, well, I'm gonna come over. there and spend time with him because. I've I've dabbled in in working with um. I ended up doing this this spoken word. piece with Nas on on one of his albums.

and the kids, they were just fired up. about how you can use writing in these. other mediums, you know, and so they. wanted to work with me on it. But the. talent that is wasted in prison, you. know, the the the ingenuity. Um, >> think about the thing about being able. to make a tattoo gun out of a piano wire. or guitar string and. >> an engine from something else, some sort. of a motor. >> tape player. Yeah. Yeah. >> And you see some of the tattoos these. guys making, Jay. Like Jesus Christ,

these are incredible tattoos. >> I'm inked up. All these like I got like. I actually got in trouble for getting. tattooed one time. I got caught like. getting getting getting getting getting. getting tattooed. The tattoo artist. wasn't good enough with getting rid of. the gun. So my last I think it was the. last thing I got in trouble for in. prison was getting a tattoo which was. crazy. I was trying to get a cover up uh. right here. >> Was that when you were already out of. solitary? >> Yeah. So I was out of solitary. I was. actually working my way down to like. going home and I was just like we in. lower level. Me let me have this guy.

slam this ink in. Cover this up real. quick. And we let got busted because he. couldn't get rid of the gun fast enough. And they they actually took 90 days from. me for that though. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. So when you get a. misconduct, they take days from from. you, you know. And you know, you think. about some of the stuff like you're. taking 90 days from a person. >> for a [ __ ] tattoo. >> their own body. >> Yeah. For what? >> Like why are you why is why is the. excess of punishment? But it goes back. like how many of those guys could get. out of jail and be excellent tattooists?

>> Absolutely. you know. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. And that's the that's the that's. the that was the other part of the idea. with with MIT is like how do we how do. we take people who. don't have traditional kind of. educational backgrounds and utilize. their talent so that they can add value. to society. You know, it's one of the. things that I appreciate about about. Silicon Valley is that talent is really. more important than your educational.

pedigree, >> right? And like if you if you're. talented, they're trying to figure out. how can you contribute. >> in a way that is meaningful. It's the. same thing with like art, you know? >> Well, it's because it's so competitive. They just want to get ahead. And often. times people that aren't educated are. some of the most incredibly talented. people. They just have some weird thing. about them that allows them to think. differently. They don't care you didn't. get a degree. Like, hire them quick. >> Yeah. Yeah. I worked Yeah. I worked in I. worked in Silicon for three years and I. invested there, so I'm super happy about.

that. But yeah, I I worked I worked in tech. and and you know when I was there it was. so fascinating to like you know being. especially like a startup you know just. that startup energy of like let's just. break a bunch of things let's fail and. let's fix it and let's figure it out and. win and I'm like that's that's the. streets right like I tell people this. like I. >> I learned like my business acumen comes. from two worlds from the streets and. prison and what I learned from the.

streets is marketing and promotion. Um, I was one of the best at like figuring. out how to get our product into other. areas. Um, there were a lot of skill. sets that I I didn't I didn't even. recognize them until I was far removed. from that world that oh, this is just. like entrepreneurial talent, you know, the ability to to problem solve. Like I. remember one one one of the houses we. sold at uh they call them trap houses. now back then we call them crack houses. We get this house. It's in the middle of. a nice neighborhood.

And this house is it's it's cranking. It's making a lot of money because. people over here still have money that's. buying the drugs. But we pull up one. time and I'm like it is a line down the. street. I'm like we're definitely going. to jail. Like this is like so obvious. We clear we on a clear path. We're going. to jail like very soon, right? >> And so I was like I was sitting there. looking at it and I was like the reason. it's a lion because we got this armored. raw gate like as soon as you walk up. So. you can't go past this gate. And I was. like, well, what if we moved a gate to.

between the kitchen and the basement and. allow the traffic to snake down into the. basement? Then we kind of keep our, you. know, we conceal more. Yeah. Keep more. lowkey. So, it would be stuff like that. that I was figuring out at like 13. Then. it's like smuggling drugs. Like I would. I would hop on a Greyhound with like a. familysized bag of chips that I've. ripped open, put drugs in, super glued. back up. I put like a a a slurpee in one. hand and I just walk on like a like a. little kid. Meanwhile, I got like, you.

know, the half a brick of cocaine. bag going down Ohio. Like, I'm I'm. hustling, right? So, I say to people. like I learned like the marketing and. promotion, distribution part there. And. then in in in. prison, I learned operations, like how. does cash flow work? So, I lone shark. That was part of my like my livelihood. And prison was lone sharking and then. running these underground stores. And. basically I worked in the recreation. center which was like the hub. So I had.

access to both sale blocks which means. that I can circulate cash on the off. days when this sale block gets money. this week this one doesn't. So I can. loan money here pick up the next week. and I would just circulate this cash. So. I was starting to generate this cash. flow and then I began to really. understand interest rates and like the. interest rates in prison are ridiculous. Like 100% markup on everything. Um, but. but I also was able to convert that. cash, right? So, like say you're on the. gambling table, Joe, and you're like,

you're down $100 and you don't got it. right now. And then I got it and then I. can come to you and say, "Okay, I'll. give you a hundred, but then I need your. girlfriend or your mother to send me 75. to my account cuz that's more valuable. is the money I have in my account." And. so that was called a money transfer. We. would just transfer cash. Um, and so I I. learned these things and then when I got. out, you know, I started off hustling. books out of the trunk. Like a lot of. people be they talk about the the out. the trunk experience is kind of like. fashionable and cool. I seriously was.

like literally I had a little Honda. Civic and I would go all over Detroit, uh, parks, uh, strip clubs, uh, you name. it, bars. I would literally set up. sometime I set up a little booth inside. the clubs. Um, a couple of my friends, they they manage the strip clubs. They'd. be like, "Yo, come to come up to the. club." I be I come up there with books. and I'm talking to the girls and they. doing lap dance. I'm selling books and. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And I I'm like, that's So that's. how I really started the the journey.

And I mean, my first first day out of. prison, I sold my first book in the in. the parole office parking lot. And so I. I took these skill sets from those two. worlds and I just applied them to. legitimate enterprise. And then as I. began to kind of pick up, you know, notoriety through through that and the. storytelling, you know, I started. speaking at companies and then I. actually ended up joining the company uh. that I used to speak at and who became a. client of mine. They was trying to. figure out their company culture and um. >> how did what did how'd that work out?

Like what what was that about? >> Yeah. So a really good friend of mine uh. uh Ben Hors you you've had his partner. Mark Andre on on Yeah. So So Mark's. partner Ben is really good friend of. mine. He's one of one of my my he's he's. my one of my best friends, but he's also. like a great mentor and somebody who. really, you know, we're always having. these idea exchanges. But one time he. invited me to his home for dinner with. one of the founders of one of their. portfolio companies. And the founder and. I, we hit it off. He's this tough tough.

Israelian guy who's been through some. stuff. So we would have these. conversations about like grit and. determination and and he had this. company called Trip Actions at the time. and they were going through they were. like a skyrocket. They was this was hot. it was going through a lot of things and. then when the pandemic hit the thing the. first thing that suffered was was travel. you know and so I was I had already been. helping the company like figure out like. some like kind of more cultural values. and and the culture and he asked me to.

join the company you know and I. originally joined as the head of DEI. because he really wanted to figure out. what was happening in the company how to. set people up for success and one day I. spoke at an event and the the the chief. revenue officer was like, I need. everybody on the sales team to be able. to communicate like that effectively, you know, and so I took on my second. role, which was head of sales and. success culture. I got a chance to train. one of the best sales teams in the. world. Uh, this company went from like.

zero revenue to like, you know, it's. nine nine billion dollar valuations. They're crushing. >> How do you sort How do you sort out a. program like this? Like you had you had. never done this before. No, but I did it. in prison with figuring out how to like. run and operationalize the things I was. doing in prison, right? So like. >> So how did they recognize that you that. this would transfer over to their. corporation? >> I think just conversations like. conversations things I was doing I was. doing some of the stuff in nonprofit. world too. So I led organization in LA.

around nonprofits, raised a ton of. money, was able to really kind of build. out that culture and then Ben actually. wrote this book called What You Do is. Who You Are. And in the book, he talked. about some of our conversations around. culture. And it kind of gave them a. framework to really understand how these. lessons I learned in prison could really. be applied in corporate. And you know, we hear it all the time. If you can run, if you can run a drug operation, you can. run a corporate. And I don't think it's. that simple. I think it sounds great.

when people say it like Freeway Ricky. Ross probably can run a corporation. Not. everybody who hustles in the street is. Freeway Ricky Ross. Right. >> Right. Um there is some skill sets to. run an actual startup that you need a. lot have a lot more experience pe the. people part of it like how do you really. build relationships that's one of the. things I was really good with in prison. is is like really knowing how to be. diplomatic uh knowing how to resolve. conflict you know a lot of times in. prison when violence escalate it's.

because people are fighting for respect. and if you can make sure that both. parties walk away with their respect in. place, you can become a real problem. solver and that's like an inherent value. in that environment. Now, the caveat is. that you also have to have a propensity. for violence. Like people have to. respect like you're not just telling. them something because you don't want. people getting into dustups on the yard, but you're telling them because you've. actually lived that life. And all that. all of that psychology from that world. applies in any corporate setting. any.

any company you can imagine all the. things that people are going through. it's the same thing that's happening in. prison the only difference is you know. the your your colleague might shank you. with an email versus like you know what. I'm saying they might slide that email. you know that's the only difference but. the mindset of like what people are. really after. >> you know that is the same thing that. you're dealing with in prison when. you're talking about like the economy. right and how do you how do you build.

So, you know, in there I would I would. find guys to invest in, you know. So, if. it's like you you ride in, you from the. neighborhood, you your family's not. taking care of you, I would say, "Okay, well, this little homie, he's on his. cell block. I'm going to give you, you. know, $30, $40, and then you got to flip. that." But you also got to be able to. defend it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can't come and fight your battle. for you. The same thing that happens in. corporate, right? You're assigned a. responsibility. The CEO can't bail you. out of that. he can give you the.

opportunity and he can ensure that you. have all the things you need to succeed. if he's a good CEO or she's a good CEO. but then you got to do the work you know. and so all those lessons I learned from. in there how to build community um one. of the things that I I I would do. because I was hustling on the sale block. is I made sure that me and my crew that. we broke bread every day like we always. would take our little ramen noodle. cookups together and we would make sure. that everybody that we said was like.

part of our family and crew, it didn't. matter if they didn't have money. It. didn't matter if they couldn't put a 10-. cent noodle in. Just that ability for. them to know that when we come to break. bread, we're all on the same playing. field. Like that was a game changer, you. know. We we train together every day, you know, and when we would train, there. was an accountability that we just. commanded of each other. It's like if. you say you're going to be on the yard, be on the yard. you know, you're gonna. go for 10 laps today. We're gonna we're.

gonna push you and drag you and help you. get around, you know, and it and it. built this closeness and and you know, and there was some there was some little. chaotic nature to it all, right? Because. like our friendships didn't come easy in. there, you know, the price of entry was. probably like the craziest [ __ ] ever. Like my my thing was like when when when. I welcome you into my world, it's based. on these two things. Are you willing to. do life or are you willing to give a. give or lose your life? And if you're. not willing to do life or take a life,

man, you we can't we can't be hanging. out on the yard because the stakes are. that high, right? It's the same thing in. corporate where you're like, listen, we're fighting for something. In a. startup, we're fighting for this. outcome, you know, a acquisition, a. merger, a IPO, whatever that thing is to. change the world. like we got to be in. the trenches together, you know, and if. we break bread together, if we spend. this time together, we realize we're. fighting for the that one thing, it's a. game changer, you know, and so when I go. into these companies, you know, I come.

in with that mindset of just like the. honesty, the vulnerability. Um, you. know, it's the the things that I'm even. in the in the book that I'm talking. about now is like. vulnerability. When you hear that, a lot. of people don't think that applies to. being a CEO, but it's the it's one of. the the greatest unlocks in your company. culture is when you can get super. transparent. And like I learned that. from being around great, you know, Ariel, he was a great CEO and he always. got super real with us. And when he got.

super real, it didn't always feel good. But what it did is it allowed you to. look at, okay, this is what we're we're. really dealing with, you know, and and. you got to face that thing head on. >> And that's what applies in your real. life, you know? >> That's the only thing that applies. Yeah. Being super real is it's. everything. >> Oh my god. It's the game changer. >> As soon as you're bullshitting. >> Yeah. >> Like now what is truth? What's reality? How do you how do you succeed if you're. not dealing in reality? >> Yeah. And that's where real grit comes. from is the truth, you know? Like you.

can't you can't have grit. >> without having honesty, >> right? >> You know what I mean? Like it's you you. know we hear it in in sport. I'm a I'm a. crazy sports fan. I think the best. stories about how you conquer life come. from sports. >> I agree. >> And you know grit and resilience. The fundamental parts of that comes down. to the truth. Like you have to be you. have to you know what's in you, right? You know if you got that thing to push. forward or if you don't. And when guys. quit, like it's because their truth is.

that they're not strong enough to keep. going, >> right? >> You know, and so that all that stuff. applies, you know, in in corporate and. business. And when I was writing about. it, obviously I'm writing about it from. a different perspective of like, you. know, I I had an experience, man, that. was like what what even sparked me to. write the recent book was I dealt with. something that was so high level complex. that it landed me on the deepest level. of gratitude. And it was my brother was.

murdered in July of 2021. And I was sitting in our family's living. room. and I'm watching my family mourn. And I was struck by. this. profound sense of guilt. because I know I made somebody else's. family feel like that. And so while I should have been grieving. my brother and trying to unpack that, it. was navigating this complex world. And.

what it led to was the toughest year of. my life emotionally of trying to. reconcile my brother's murder with who I. had become as a kid. And what I landed. on was that gratitude. is one of the greatest keys to freedom. And is that if we can lean into being. thankful for all of it, right? the the. challenges, the the wins, the victories, all the things that you can you can live.

a life that is so rich and abundant and. in fulfillment. um because you're always in that spirit. of gratitude and you're thankful for the. moment you're in. >> Yeah. >> And that to me, when you're in a when. you're in a in a company setting and. everything feels chaotic and you're. like, you know, damn, I don't want to. get up and go to work. If you can just. pause for a minute and be like, man, I'm. thankful that I get a chance to get up. and go to work. >> Yeah. >> And I'm thankful for these challenge.

I'm thankful for the abundance and that. this brings into my life. And that, you. know, it's hard sometimes for people to. see it because they haven't lost. anything. But when you've lost. everything, you know, you're thankful. for like, you know, my gratitude. practices are I wake up in the morning. and I try to identify three things that. I'm thankful for. And they can't be the. super obvious things. They can't be. like, you know, my wife and my kid and. and the house and and the things. It's.

these small things, you know, things. that I get I get excited about like I. got cold orange juice today. Like how. amazing is that? You know what I mean? Like that that that matters to me, you. know? Um you know, I have I have a. device that I can actually communicate. with the world, an idea, you know, that. I have like in the moment that I have it. like that's gratitude. And you know, it's like I got toothpaste today. You. know, soap. Soap is a big thing in my.

life. like um you know there there was a. time when I was in prison when. and I don't know what was happening in. my family's life you know uh but I. didn't have any money and I couldn't. even buy a bar of soap and all I had was. this state issue soap and it's a little. small bar about this big. It's probably. about a quarter of an inch thick and it. smells like pine saw.

And I just remember like. this moment of like, man, I I can't afford a bar of soap right. now, you know? And in that same stretch, I was in solitary and I didn't have uh. these shower shoes. So in prison, you. get these little, you know, shower shoes. that you buy for like $2 cuz you go in. to take a shower and this, you know, this this cesspool of all this random. body fluids or whatever. And I tried to. wear my regular shoes to the shower. And.

officer was like, "You can't you can't. wear those to the shower." I'm like, "What do you want me to stand barefoot. in that shower?" And she was like, "I. don't care what you do, but you can't. wear those." And like that feeling of. like shame, you know, that like I was a drug dealer, you know, I hustled. I took care of. people. I stood up for people. And I. don't have $2 shower shoes. Like that is what allows me to. appreciate all the things, you know? And.

so what I what I say to people is like. find. the things in your life to be thankful. for, you know, find them. Like see be. intentional about it though, you know, cuz that's that's to me that's the. ultimate freedom, man, is is gratitude. and to be thankful about, you know, even. our complex country like we got to we. live in a very complex country. It's actually kind of dope though, you. know, and I don't think we spend enough. time, you know, talking about the things.

that we should be grateful for just. being here, you know. Um, I think all. kids should be like part of education, they should have to travel. Um, especially if you're in this country, I. think you should have to travel to. places that don't have all the trappings. of possibilities, you know, and I just think that. gratitude is a game changer. I think so. too because I think it's too easy to. focus on negative and negative begets. more negative. >> If you just find the things in your life.

that suck and dwell on those, your. life's going to suck more. >> Absolutely. >> It's just simple mathematics. It's it. it's real. I know people that are very. successful that aren't gratitude. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's crazy. >> Yeah. That's who I wrote the book for. for those people is like. >> It's crazy. >> Yeah. >> I know so many people that are like very. successful but very unhappy. >> Yeah. I remember one time a story um. when I was on television. I was on uh. this TV show called News Radio and uh. >> we would get the ratings in and when we.

would get the ratings, you know, we. weren't doing that well. It wasn't a. very successful show. It was only. successful once it got off the air. ironically in syndication. It became. because it was a good show. >> Yeah. >> But um they were all sitting around. They were reading Variety and um Variety. magazine and the Hollywood Report. I. would call them the devil's rag. >> because like you guys are like. concentrating on all this [ __ ] that is. making you compare yourself to other. people. >> and you're all getting upset that we're. not after friends or we're not after.

Seinfeld. Go last time I checked I'm on. television. We're on television. You. know few people get to be on a [ __ ]. sitcom and we're you're we're here. pissing and moaning because we're not on. the biggest sitcom. That is so crazy. Do. you know how many people would trade. lives with you? I mean, I used I I had a ton of terrible. jobs doing construction, delivered. newspapers, I did everything. >> Drove limos. I did everything. >> And I'm on TV, right?

>> I'm happy as [ __ ]. >> right? >> But for these people, like there was. never, you know, it's just it's just a. symptom of Hollywood itself because. Hollywood is all about who's number one. It's not just about like you're making a. great living doing something that's. really fun. It's like no, no, no. Someone is out there being Tom Cruz, >> right? >> How come I'm not Tom Cruz? You know, this is [ __ ] Tom Cruz is Tom Cruz. I'm not Tom Cruz, right? You and that's. literally and then they they live. miserable. They're multi-millionaire.

miserable people. Which is. >> Yeah. Which is the craziest thing. >> A kid like me who grew up on food stamps. was like, "What is [ __ ] wrong with. you people? This is crazy.". >> Like you're living the dream. You're. you're in you're not maybe you don't. have the number one dream, but guess. what? >> No one's paying attention to you, so you. don't get scrutinized. You could go to a. restaurant. You have [ __ ] cameras in. your face. You You're actually living a. better dream. >> Yeah. >> My friend Brian said this to me once, >> my friend Brian Call, he said,

>> "All you want is to be able to go to a. restaurant and order anything you want. and not worry about what the bill costs. Everything after that is bullshit.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I was like, that is like some of the. best wisdom ever because. >> it doesn't matter how big your house is. It's just your [ __ ] house, man. You. get used to all that [ __ ]. >> Absolutely. >> There's so some nice things that come. with money. They're nice, >> but freedom is nicer than all those. things. And everybody has that. >> No, it's the ultimate wealth. >> It's the ultimate wealth. and just not.

worrying about your bills is though I. remember I got a development deal which. uh for comedians is this is back in the. day when everybody they were trying to. turn everybody into Jerry Seinfeld they. try to turn everybody into a sitcom. Roseanne you know everybody they they. would come to comedians and they give. you a development deal and they would. give you like $100,000 or something like. that and then um they would try to write. a sitcom around you and develop a pilot. This was like the game. That was the. hustle. >> And the first time I got a development.

deal, I think I was. >> 26. I guess I was 26, something like that. And, you know, my whole life I'd been. paycheck to paycheck, always broke, you. know, and for the last 5 years, just. hustling as a comedian, trying to get. by. I was just happy that I didn't have. to have a regular job. I was just a. comedian, but I was always broke. And. then all of a sudden I got I think I got. $150,000 and it was like this enormous.

weight was lifted off my shoulders. >> It was the craziest weight. It was like. physical weight. I was like now I don't. have to worry about my bills. >> Like I was every month it was like can I. pay rent? >> Can I keep the lights on? You know, can. I afford gas to get to my gigs? It was. just like that. I was like barely. getting no health insurance, no nothing. I had nothing. >> Just barely getting by. But that. physical weight, I rem I'll never forget. that. I was like, that's the most. important thing is to not worry about. your bills. >> Absolutely. >> But then everybody's worried about what.

Bob's got a 22T boat. I've gone a 18ft. boat. Like Jesus Christ. >> Things that don't really matter when it. comes down to it. >> Yeah. It's like that that there's an I. forget who said it. Comparison is a. thief of joy. Is that the. >> No, theo is most men live lives of quiet. desperation. That's my other favorite. one. Yeah, it's great. >> I think it might have been. >> might have been Jefferson who said. comparison the thief of joy, but it is. >> it's like you can miss out on gratitude. when it's right in front of your face.

You have so many things to be happy for. >> Absolutely. >> But every this weird world, this is why. I also tell people stay the [ __ ] off. social media, man. >> Yeah. Know how you depressed for sure. >> Oh, it's compare. This is Jonathan Hate. wrote a book about what it's doing to. young girls. It's like they're comparing. themselves constantly to everybody else. And these girls are using filters and. everybody's like you and then they're. getting plastic surgery and changing. this and changing that and look at all. my [ __ ] Look at my bag. Look at my. jewelry. Look at my car. Look at my. this. Look at my that. And it's just.

everyone's constantly in this state of. comparison and no one is happy just to. be alive and healthy in America in a. wild time of change. Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think that's. that's that's the thing that I' I've. really been struck by, you know, when I. when I got out and and talking to some. of, you know, the guys and women that I. know who've been incarcerated, you know, I do think that we all operate out of. that same injury of just I mean in and. energy of like just deep gratitude, you.

know, because you you do really begin to. understand what is value. Yeah. >> When you take it away, right? And like. it's it's the it's that saying of like, you know, you can have a million. problems until you get sick and then you. only have one. >> Yes. >> And then and that's the thing about like. losing freedom, right? And. >> what I've what I've been struck by is, you know, you talk about the people who. looks like they have it all and they're. not happy and they're not fulfilled. That's like being struck with that. illness where it's like you got all the.

trappings of life right here to. disposal. Yeah. >> But you're trapped into this idea that. >> you know and sometimes it's not that. it's not real stuff, right? Like trauma. is real. >> Sure. >> You know, uh shame is real. You know, grief is something none of us are. getting through this life without grief. Like that's just factual. Like if you. live, you know, any considerable amount. of time to where you're conscious, you're going to grieve at some point. You know, somebody's going to die. You're going to lose a job. You're going. to lose an opportunity, a love. >> It's not all highs. Nobody gets all.

highs. >> Exactly. And I think what what happens. is that one, we just haven't created. space to like talk about what that. really is for us, you know? We just kind. of deal with it on our own and then it. trips people up because it can get heavy. at time, you know, and if you get hit. with a few things back to back, it can. actually be overwhelming. Um, but if you. lean into some of these things that. really centers you, you know, being. present, like I'm I'm super present in. the moment to sometime it can be.

annoying to the to the people in my life. cuz I'm just like, no, I actually. changed my mind like literally this. moment and they're like, "What are you. talking about? We planned this whole. thing for like Yeah. But I changed my. mind cuz in this moment this is where I. really want to be.". >> Um, but it's it's a beautiful space to. be, you know, like that. Yeah. That's. what I learned in in prison. So I tell. people like I was incarcerated before I. ever stepped foot in a prison cell. I. was free before I ever got out of. solitary. And that that freedom of. mindfulness, that freedom of really.

understanding that the rest of my life. is on me, you know, I didn't know if I. was getting out of prison. Here's what I. knew. Whatever happens, my son is going to be. able to look at me and say, you know. what? My dad went through all of these. things. But here's who he came became as. a person that that you can't it's not a. box that can contain that, you know, and. it's not a it's not a gate that can keep. you back from that. Like that's all the. inside work. It's the inside job. And.

like that's how I just try to live my. life is like, you know, it's it's you. know, I see it and it's sad because it's. to all the things you say. It's like the. the competition with with people. highlight reel, right? Like you can't. compete with somebody's highlight reel. Exactly. >> It'll drive you crazy. Real highlight. Lot of lease cars out there. >> Come on. The lease car is is I saw a car. out here that I took of I mean I've had. people be like, "Yo, can I take a. picture in front of your car?". >> Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? So, >> you know, when you get behind and you. realize like, man, what what do people. really care about? Where's the most. joyous? like the friendships you. develop, >> the people you spend time with, like. >> those things are invaluable, you know, and and that's not to say that people. shouldn't aspire toward success. Like I. I'm like, listen, leave it all on the. floor. Whatever your whatever whatever. task you've been given in life, like go. out and execute it to the fullest. capabilities possible. Like don't don't. underell yourself. Don't half do it.

Don't quit on yourself. Go for it. push. yourself to the limits, but understand. you got to be present in the moments. that you're living. Otherwise, it's it's. going to be squandered time. And so, that's how I just try to live my life, man. I'm like, I'm enjoying it. You. know, I want to enjoy it. Um, I work. hard. You know, sometime I, you know, it's probably annoying to people around. me that how hard I work, but I find joy. in that. You know, there's joy in the. actual work. You know, otherwise, I. wouldn't do it. So. >> there's joy in most aspects of life that.

people miss out on because they just. can't appreciate it because they haven't. been in prison. >> There's a thing about that. >> We should send everybody to the bing at. least. >> No, you know, I don't I don't advocate. for that. But I think in your mind, I. think what you were saying that you were. in prison before you were ever in. prison, there's a lot of people that. just don't understand how to think and. that's something we don't teach people. at a young age. >> and how how to think. Absolutely. And I. think it's it's a it's a gigantic factor. in where you find yourself in life and.

whether you find yourself living a. happy, fulfilled life or whether you. find yourself. >> Yeah. >> you one of those people that lives in. quiet desperation, >> which is most people out there. >> Yeah. I mean, they they've been talking. about this epidemic recently with with. with males in general and just like how. men are not satisfied with like life, you know? And I'm like part of it is. like I I I think one we have to be. better. I think this is something women. build community way better than men do.

Uh because we're so competitive and like. you you and we're not always willing to. be vulnerable. But I can I can say like. well my my friendships that I have with. men, it starts at vulnerability, you know? It starts with like the the. the depth of like what does it mean to. be vulnerable? what is what are we. struggling with today, >> right? >> You know, how are you really like how. are you really feeling today? >> You know, how did that how did you feel. when that deal didn't go through or when. you lost that money? >> And like you don't have to put the cape.

on and try to figure it all out in one. day. But my responsibility to you as. your friend is to ensure that you have a. space that we can come and get brutally. honest. You know, how are you navigating. parenting? Like it's tough, right? It's. it's it's relationships are tough. you. know, marriage, all these things that. require, you know, a different muscle. and like it's almost like we talk about. them in these very kind of extreme ways, right? Either either it's like extreme.

toxic masculinity or it's the. feminization of males, >> right? >> And the truth is like it's neither of. those things. You know, those are. narratives, but they're not the. narratives doesn't necessarily mean that. they're true. You know what is true is. that we have not created space for. honesty and transparency and. vulnerability and we haven't identified. that is actually a strength. And so what. I what I found that's been amazing, man, is the men that I'm I'm in relationships. with as my brothers and my friends, that.

vulnerability piece is like has been the. super unlock for us actually having. enjoyable friendships, you know, and I. think, you know, it's all the things. that that you know, these things. translate into your work experience. They translate into your relationship. with your children. Like I get so. inspired by like my friends, which I. also think is important. And it's like. you should be inspired by the people you. spend time with like that that's. invaluable, you know. Um, and it doesn't.

mean that you don't deal with with their. hard, you know, the hard parts of their. life. But if if you're inspired by them. and you're vulnerable with them, the. hard parts of their life become. beautiful. You know what I mean? And. those are easier things to navigate. because it becomes what the real meaning. of honor is. >> Yeah. You know, >> the thing about men being competitive. with each other, that's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. Not enjoying your. friend's success, not not wanting them. to succeed, like secretly wanting them.

to fail. You you will never live a happy. life if you're secretly wanting people. to fail. >> Yeah. >> You will never live a happy life if you. you want to seek. >> if you seek joy in other people's. failure. You will never you'll never. live a happy life. That is not the way. The way is if someone is doing really. well and you feel jealousy, what is. that? What is that feeling that you're. comparing yourself to them? Well, you. have two choices. You can either be. bitter and upset and negative which does.

you no good or you can be inspired. So. their success can be fuel that makes you. work harder. Absolutely. And actually. you should thank them for that. You. should even thank people you don't like. If you find them their success to make. you feel uncomfortable like, "Oh, what? [ __ ] that dude." No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the way. The way is what is. he doing? Oh, he's working harder. He's. doing this. He's figured out this. He's. more objective. He's more analytical. >> He's uh figured out a way to work. harder. >> Absolutely.

>> He's figured out a way to work smarter. He's more more honest with himself about. stuff. He writes things down. He's got a. a chart on his wall where he figures out. what he's doing wrong and how to correct. it. and he's doing that work and he's. correcting it. I'm not doing that. That's why he's getting ahead and I'm. not. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. But you got to be vulnerable even. with yourself. >> Absolutely. >> And that that's the super unlock, right? Is that that's what I got out of. journaling. like that journaling was. like, you know, when I when I when I sat. down and first started journaling,

my one task to myself was you have to be. brutally honest. And you have to be and. it's and it's going to it's not going to. be pretty, but you got to be brutally. honest. Only sit down and journal when. you're ready to be brutally honest. And. that that was a game changer for me. Like I remember there was a guy he was. in the sale next to me and we got we got. into this minor conflict. He owed me for. some cigarettes that, you know, he got. on credit, he didn't pay it. And when I.

wouldn't give him more on credit, he. blew the power out of my sales. So, he. stuck some [ __ ] in the [ __ ] light. socket, right? And I'm over here, I'm. like, I'm already cuz I I had went to. the yard that day to the uh to the uh. the cages, right? So, we go out um and. normally I don't really go out in the in. the winter time, you know, this in. solitary, so I might go like a month. like during February. It's brutally cold. in Michigan. But I get up and I go But I. hadn't been out, you know, I think most. of January I probably hadn't been out. And so I go out to the cages. >> and this one guy, he gets into it with.

the officers. You know, they're having a. little verbal, you know, altercation. and the officers take it out on all of. us. So we're only supposed to be out for. an hour. So that hour in my mind already. programmed for I'mma go out, I'mma walk, I'mma do my walking for about 15 and I'm. push-ups, you know, whatever, keep. myself warm, etc. They left us out there. It had to be for. hour 45. Way beyond what we were. supposed to supposed to be, right? So, just to keep you cold. >> Yeah. Just to keep us cold. I mean, like.

we're And it's like I mean, by the time. I come in, I'm so cold. I'm past the. shivering point. >> And so, I'm I'm pissed. I'm, you know, I'm pissed. And then the neighbor is. like, "Yo, can I borrow some more. cigarettes? He ain't pay me back." And. I'm like, I cuss him out, man. No, you. ain't getting no more cigarettes. Power is. power. Joe, I'm over here steaming, bro. I'm so I'm like literally I'm like I'm.

in rage, but I'm like I'm super cold and. like the power is out. So, cuz the power. is I had like a little radio. I can like. block out some of the noise so I can. read and write, you know? And sometime. they'll come fix it in a couple hours, but sometime it can be days, you know. And so by the time I thaw out, I'm like. I had just started this journaling. journey, you know, and I just start. writing down. I catch this [ __ ]. in the yard. I'mma shank him and you. know, I'm I'm going I'm I'm furious, you. know. And I come back a couple of days.

later cuz that's what I would do. I. would write and then I would come back. and read what I had written. And I was like, this is the mind of a. madman. Like this person like I I would. not want this to be a person that I live. next door to, right? So you got to get. your [ __ ] together, you know. And so I I. wrote through this process and. >> you know, even now, you know, I still. have all my journals. They're actually. on a pad similar to that, like that. notepad. I still have all my journals. from prison. And I can go and flip. through the pages and it's like, you. know, um, one thing I didn't do enough.

of, I wish, and I encourage people who. journal is write the dates on everything. because I didn't write all all the time. I didn't write the dates. >> But I can go back, man, and I flip. through and sometimes it's beautiful, you know? Sometimes it's it's these. moments where I can see myself. awakening, you know, and I see this. desire to be a different person and I. see just the the honesty there, you. know, of like, listen, I'm not I'm not. there yet, you know. I feel it, you. know, I'm afraid that, you know, what if.

I what if I become nice? Can I survive. the yard now? >> Um, what does that mean? You know, to. like. >> not be angry. Angry is a power in. prison. You know, it's a it's a nobody. wants to mess with an angry person in. prison or a crazy person. So, these. things are. >> they have value, you know. Uh who am I. without my anger, you know? >> Um and so I can see this enlightenment. in real time and I'm just like, man, you. were you were really a kid, you know? It's like you're trying to figure this. this stuff out with no,

>> you know, there's no therapist. There's. no, you know, um you know, you don't. have anybody to interpret. You don't. even have language for this. You just. know you're hurting and you know that. that's the the the anger is really hurt. You know, it's really disappointment. It's all these things. And that that. writing it down like I highly encourage. people to like really it's it's it's one. of the things that I attribute to my. success today. Um all the things that I. want to manifest in my life, I have.

written down. I've literally written. them down. I mean, now we got. technology. I'm constantly writing. things down uh with on my phone when I. don't have access to to pen and pad. Um. but there is something powerful about. like handwriting like just the the. meditative process of seeing one word. after another. Um, but it starts with. that you got to get real with yourself, you know, and it's it, you know, for me. it was it was so hard because early on I.

blamed everybody, you know, I blamed my. dad, you know, I blamed my mom. Like, why would you hit me out of anger, you. know, blame my dad, why would you let. her do that, you know? Um, what has led to that journaling led. to me having powerful relationships with. my parents because it taught me how to. be vulnerable and it taught me how to. talk to them without judging them, you. know, and to really spend time with them. and and say, you know, you know, I.

remember my mother, we had this we had. this we we had a dust up, you know, um. because she was upset by something I had. written and she said to me, you know, you don't you don't know what my life. was like back then. And she said it. multiple times and I just listened to. her and I said to her, I was like, "Mom, how how how would I have have understood. your life when I was 9 years old?" And. it just stopped her, you know, and it. allowed us to actually talk about who.

she was and what she had went through. And it allowed me to forgive her, you. know, cuz that was a tough thing that I. had to navigate was forgiveness. Um, and. that's another thing that I found in in. in life, man, is that people hang on to. stuff, you know. They they let it. torture them, you know. Meanwhile, the. other person is off living their life. and they're not even thinking about that. thing that you're harping over, you. know. Um, but I wouldn't have been able. to get there without journaling, you. know. I wouldn't have been able to get. there without saying, "I'm actually not.

angry today. I'm hurt." You know, I used. to like have these moments where. this is a this is an extremely. vulnerable thing to say, but it's. important. Male will call in prison is one of the. most emotionally charged times that you. will ever serve because it's that moment. of a day where everything gets quiet and. everybody who's in the cell block is. waiting to either get excited or get.

disappointed. And if you're lucky that someone thought. about you and they've sent you a letter. or they've sent you $20, you know, or. $30 or whatever, and it is it it induces. so much anxiety when you're waiting and. you're waiting and you're waiting to. hear from someone. Um, and I just remember like writing in my. journal, you know, I would go to these. stretches, man, and and I wouldn't hear.

from my family. You know, I would write. I would write these long letters and I. wouldn't get a letter back. Um, I was. going through, you know, a time where I. felt extremely vulnerable because of the. assault on the officer and was worried. about like my actual well-being, you. know, to the point where I started. fasting like 3 days a month. I would. like not eat anything. I would just. drink water and I would just like eat. cough drops that I could buy out of the. the commissary. That was the only thing.

that you can buy that was like. digestible other than medicine when. you're a solitary. So you can't you. can't get noodles and all the things. And so we would buy cough drops and eat. those like Jolly Ranchers, you know, that was like our little thing. And and. I just were like I just remember like. writing and just being like, man, I just. want to hear from somebody, you know, because these people. like they can do anything to me. like. I've I've hurt one of their colleagues, you know, and they were telling me they. would, you know, tell me, "Yo, we're.

going to come in and [ __ ] you up or. we're going to, you know, and when. you're going through that, you know that. there's things that they can do like. they can deprive you of food." Um, they. have this concoction in there. I don't. know if you ever heard of this, but it's. called food loaf. And basically what. happens is say, say they pass out the. meal and you decide, I'm not going to. give the milk carton back. then they can. put you on food loaf restriction. And so. instead of getting a regular tray, they.

give you this loaf of everything that. you would have had that day that's. packed into this brick that they bake. Um, and so just imagine them just. grinding all your food up, you know, your mashed potatoes and chicken patty. and string beans and then baking it into. a little brick and then being like, "Okay, that's your your meal for the. day." Now, that's what the meal is. supposed to be. But what actually. happens is they take all the leftover. food from that week. We cook that with. oatmeal and jell-o, so it it actually. stays together and they bake it into.

these bricks and they put it into the. freezer. And then when somebody's on. food loaf, they'll send over to the. child hall. We got one on food loaf and. they'll they'll take that brick out, warm it up in the in in the oven, and. then send it over to the cell block. And. and you can't eat it. It's not it's it. it smells so atrocious. It is the most. gross thing, but it meets their minimum. requirement of what they have to do um. in terms of nurturing. So, in terms of.

nourishment, so what I would do is like. 3 days I would just fast and I would. just drink water and I would, you know, use my cough drops. And I was doing that. because I was preparing myself for if. they just decided to make up a lie and. be like, "Oh, he didn't give us back the. card or he threw some food on us." And. then I'm like I'm physically conditioned. to go without food. >> um and not suffer, right? And then I. realized that when I started to do it. that it actually had these spiritual and.

these psychological effects that were. like benefits I didn't I didn't know I. needed or was looking for. Um, but one. it was really was the roots of helping. me understand what it means to be. resilient and what it means to be. capable of overcoming a thing. Um, and. then it also just helped me. self-regulate and know that I can be in. control of how I feel about anything. And so the first time I did it, it felt. I felt like I was suffering, you know, I. was like, "Oh, this is hard. This is,

you know, this this system is forcing me. to have to, you know, figure out how to. be tough and all the things." But by the. time I started to do it, I started to. feel like, you know, gratitude and I. started to feel like this honoring of. myself, you know, that I'm willing to. fight for myself, you know, but all of. that came out of out of being, you know, raw in those journals and just being. like, man, male, I didn't get any mail. today. That hurts, you know. I mean, it's sad. I don't feel thought about you. know um I went 17 years without my.

mother coming to visit me and that that. psychologically had so much impact on. how I saw myself of like your own mother. won't come see you like you're that bad. of a person you know and so that. journaling really helped me undo a lot. of that damage you know it helped me to. start to see myself it's like no you. actually are lovable like you are you. are worthy of good things happening to.

you. You know, there's a lot of bad. things that happened to you, but those. all weren't a reflection of your. self-worth. Um, and so when I got out, you know, it. helped me have these deeper. conversations with my parents. And it. really helped me understand like what. true forgiveness is. You know, there was. a time where I had forgave my mother, but it came with attachments. You know, I forgive you, but you got to be this. now. M. >> you know you got to be you got to. nurture me and you got to you know take. me and and and you know hug me in your.

bosom like any other parent would do. their child and it was all contrived in. my head you know that wasn't forgiveness. that was like this condition. >> right. >> you know and I see that in I see that in. work I see it in life I see it in. relationships and parenting is that. we're always attaching a thing to the. outcome as opposed to saying. >> yeah you know as opposed to just saying. you know what. >> I forgive give you and and and and. that's it. It has to be nothing else. Like you don't have to change. You don't.

even we don't even have to like each. other. But I'm not going to hold myself. hostage to the pain of the past. like, you know, that's when I think about, you. know, grit and I think about sports and, you know, I I watch these these athletes. who compete, you know, they're putting. their bodies on the line and, you know, sometime you can see a a person have an. injury and you like that person's career. over because, you know, they don't have. the mental toughness to like overcome. that adversity, you know, and you you'll.

see them quitting in the moment. And. then you'll see the other ones that. they'll have that injury and you know. the moment they get out of the hospital. they're like they're working, you know, they're working. They're going to work. them themselves back to, you know, to. whatever they need to do to to compete. again, you know, and like that that's. >> all of that is that vulnerability and. and ability to like accept a thing and. then decide what you want to do with it. >> Well, I think those lessons that you get. from athletes is one of the reasons why. we love sports so much. So we see.

ourselves. >> in these athletes and see their. struggles and their triumphs and we say, "Oh, I I think if I work hard, I can do. that too or I could do something similar. in my own life.". >> Absolutely. >> I think a lot of people are going to get. that out of this conversation too from. you. You know, what what you've gone. through and who you are now is is very. admirable. You know, it it really the. way you express yourself, the way you. can talk about these ideas and the way. you're so vulnerable to just talk about.

what you went through. It's uh it's a. insane journey, >> you know, and I I really appreciate you. coming on here, man. >> I appreciate you having me, man. It's. such a it's a big fan and just so much. respect for, >> you know, the way that you you know what. I really respect out of you out of more. than anything else is your curiosity. You know, I find that super fascinating. that you can be doing anything you want. to do in the world, but you remain like. super curious about life and that's like. such an admirable trait and one that I.

truly appreciate. >> Well, I think we all have that. I think. it's just not nourished, you know? I. think everyone's curious and I'm very. curious about people, very curious about. what makes a person. >> who they are. >> What did you go through? What's how do. you think? Yeah. >> How do you. >> how do you go through your day? like. what is what what is your thought. process? >> Yeah, >> you can learn a lot from people, man. And I learned a lot from you. >> Thank you very much, brother. >> Thanks so much for having me, man. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. All right.

Bye, everybody. [Music].