Joe Rogan Experience #2352 - James Talarico

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. >> How are you, James? >> I'm doing well. How are you? >> Very good. Nice to meet you. >> It's nice to meet you. Thanks for having. me. >> My pleasure. I found out about you from. my friend Brian Simpson. He was uh in. the green room of the comedy Mothership. and he was telling me how excited he was. about you. He said he watched some. lecture. I think I think it was probably.

you not a lecture, a speech you were. giving about the ten commandments in. schools. And so then I watched it and I. said, "Oh, okay. This is very. interesting." So I thought we'd have a. cool conversation. >> Yeah. Well, I'm uh just honored to be. here. >> My pleasure for including me. >> Thank you. I'm honored to have you. It's. always um interesting to see a person. who is a Christian who is uh not for of. the ten commandments in schools. >> Yeah.

>> And I think you made a very compelling. argument, you know. >> Yeah. You know, I've gotten that a lot. People who are like, you're you're in. seminary, you're studying to become a. minister. Why wouldn't you want the Ten. Commandments in every classroom? So, I. recognize that it's kind of a a weird. position to be in, but I grew up in a. tradition that cherished the separation. of church and state. Um, not just. because it protects the church or um. protects democracy, but it is what. allows this um this democracy to happen.

where we can all have different faith. traditions and live together in peace. Um, and so any attempt to erode that. boundary, I feel like I have a special. obligation to speak out against it. And. so I I told my colleagues that I thought. the bill was unconstitutional. I thought. the bill was unamerican. But I I went. one step further and I said I thought. the bill was uncchristian, which again. probably sounds weird to people, but in. all of Jesus's teachings, he's always. focused on the outsider, the outcast, the person who's left out or the person.

who's different. And so as a Christian, I I think my concern is for the Muslim. kid and the Jewish kid, the Hindu kid, the atheist kid who's sitting in a. classroom who now has a poster on the. wall forced by the government that says, you know, your religion is inferior or. you're not welcome here. And I just. think if if Jesus saw that, he would. weep for those students and and would. demand that we love them as ourselves. And so that's why I I kind of spoke out.

against the bill on theological grounds, not just constitutional grounds. >> So what is the bill? Could you explain? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the bill forces every teacher in the. state to display the ten commandments in. their class. >> even in private schools. >> It's only public schools. Um because. that's really where we have authority as. the state legislature. And the bill, this is going to sound weird, but it. even uh specifies how big the poster is, uh the dimensions of it. It has to be in. a it has to be in a conspicuous place.

It's basically the size of a of a sheet. of paper, regular sheet of paper. >> The idea is they didn't want anyone to. make it too small uh to where someone. wouldn't read it. But. >> um the bill says that uh that the school. doesn't have to spend money on it. It. can be donated. And you know that sounds. sounds fine to most people until you. realize there's this huge network of um. Christian nationalist organizations that. are already preparing to flood every. school with these Ten Commandments uh. posters for all of their classrooms. So.

the donation thing sounds like it's kind. of innocuous until you realize that the. donations are already ready to go uh. from all these outside groups. So. there's going to be legal challenges of. course, but you know, if it's not struck. down in the courts, every teacher is. going to have to put up the Ten. Commandments in their classroom against. their wills, even if they don't want to. I mean, I just, again, speaking as a. Christian, if we have to force people to. put up a poster, to me, that means that. we have a dead religion, a religion that. no longer moves people, a religion that.

no longer speaks to people's hearts. If. we have to prove our legitimacy by. micromanaging. what teachers put up in their classroom, I mean that to me that means we have a. real crisis in our faith, um, we should. be leading by example, not by mandate. >> How did this get proposed? And what is. the support for it? >> Well, the support is pretty broad within. the Republican caucus. Uh, again, I I. serve in the state. >> Was it universal essentially? >> Yeah, I don't think there was a single. Republican who voted against it uh this.

time around. Um, and again, I serve in. the in the state legislature. A lot of. people think that I'm a congressman. Uh, I serve here in Austin at the state. capital. >> What is your position? >> So, I'm a state representative. Um, so I. serve there are two chambers just like. the federal government, a Senate and a. House. I serve in the in the House in. the state house. So, the Republicans. have a majority in the House and in the. Senate. I'm a member of the Democratic. Party. So, I literally can't get. anything done without working on a. bipartisan basis. Um, I it's actually a. blessing in this this modern era where.

we're all tribalized and polarized that. I am forced to work with people who have. completely different views than I do. And and I actually you get to know them. In DC, from what I hear, I don't I have. only been to DC a few times in my life, but from what I hear, you're you're. really kind of separated physically from. your colleagues. You don't spend a lot. of time talking to each other anymore. It's a lot of fundraising and and and. events and not really a lot of. relationship building. In the state. capital, you don't have the same uh.

media scrutiny, the same spotlight. So, we can still get to know each other and. go out to eat with each other and meet. each other's families. And I actually. think it's a it's something that we. could benefit from at the national level. is that kind of. camaraderie and and professional um. working relationships with people across. the aisle. Gabbard told me she tried to do a lot of. that. Yeah. >> You know, when she was a congresswoman. and she said it was very difficult and. she would get push back from other. Democrats.

>> Yeah. The the system doesn't encourage. that at the national level. Here um you. know, we do not I think in in DC, the. minority party appoints um the committee. chairs and or ranking members. here in. the at the state level, the speaker of. the house who is elected by Republicans. and Democrats, that's the person who. decides what committee you're on and you. know what bills you can get passed. And. so in some ways that forces you to be. loyal to the body rather than loyal to. your party or your caucus. Um again, I.

I'm proud to be part of the Democratic. caucus, but I can't I I literally can't. get anything done if I don't have some. kind of Republican support. And so that. just and I get a lot, you know, I'm able. to pass a lot of bills as a Democrat. Um, and it's because I have good. relationships with with my colleagues on. the other side of the aisle. Um, but. yeah, on the Ten Commandments issue, I. it kind of became one of these culture. war fights. And so there wasn't room to. to have kind of an honest conversation. about. >> when did this get proposed? >> So, it originally got proposed uh two.

years ago in 2023 during the regular. session. Um, I spoke out against the. bill. I kind of kicked up a bunch of. dust about the bill and uh it went over. all over social media and I think that. pressure ended up uh delaying the bill. enough to where it died on the deadline. So, it didn't pass. Then it came back. this session 2025 and eventually passed. both chambers and got signed by the. governor. So, unless it's stopped in the. courts, it's going to be law in the. state of Texas.

>> Wow. And I, you know, here's what I try, I. try to always, I try to always, uh, take. someone's argument at face value and. assume best intentions. This is, this is. how I'm able to work in a place like the. legislature here in Texas. >> because I try to listen to what. someone's argument is. >> And if I'm being charitable, the the. best argument for this is that the kids. are not all right. Young people are. growing up without the structure of.

faith. Whether it's the Christian faith. or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism, whatever it may be, students are just. less religious than they once were. People are less religious than they once. were. We know that's a fact. And and so. this rise in mental health issues, anxiety, depression among young people, there are folks out there, and I would. even uh put myself in this camp who say. it's that children are growing up in an. incoherent universe. There's not a a. tradition, a story that helps helps them.

make sense of their lives in a profound. almost cosmic way, which is necessary. for human beings. I mean, no matter who. you are, you need that that structure. and that uh that meaning in your life. And so, I recognize that that is a. problem. But what I firmly and. passionately believe is that the. government forcing teachers to put up a. poster actually makes that problem worse. because I think, and again, I was a. middle school teacher before I became a. politician, so I know I know students,

they have the best BS detector around, right? They they are now going to I. think this bill will create a whole new. generation of atheists who think that my. religion, my faith tradition that means. everything to me is more about power. than it is about love. And they already. kind of think that. I mean, young people. already think that about religion. I. think this is just going to confirm just. the worst um people's worst inclinations. and impulses about organized religion.

>> Yeah, I would agree with that. And it. just doesn't make sense that we've. always had a separation of church and. state. It's been very important. And. that this imposing this on on kids in. school in non-religious schools just. seems kind of crazy. >> Well, and the the staunchest defenders. for the separation of church and state. throughout American history were. Protestant Christians, >> Baptists in particular, right? I mean. the the letter Jefferson writes where he. first uses that phrase, a wall of.

separation between church and state was. to the Danbury Baptists because I mean. these Protestants were fleeing. um Europe as religious minorities, right? I mean this this is kind of. essential to the founding of this. country was religious freedom. And so. those Christians understood that once. the government starts preaching your. religion, starts making decisions about. your faith, that that that doesn't lead. anywhere good. >> Um and and we so we should be very.

suspicious of the state usurping the. role of pastors and Sunday school. teachers. I mean, if you want to deepen. your faith, we have churches on every. street corner. A lot of them don't have. a lot of people in them, right? We've. got mosques and temples and synagogues. that are that have a ton of room in. them. And so why would we have the. government start to teach kids about or. preach a certain religion when we have. houses of worship that can do that? >> Yeah. I think it's also a really. important point you made earlier that if. you try to force kids into doing things,

they don't like to do it. >> Correct. >> And especially if you try to force kids. that are they're secular and they're. they come from households that maybe are. atheists or agnostic. >> and then you have this on the wall, right? >> And you impose it on them. Yeah, >> they're going to think about it like a. lot of they think about a lot of other. government BS. >> as they should. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I honestly think that. Christianity has a lot to to share with. the world at this moment of of kind of.

crisis everywhere. But this again is. giving Christianity and religious people. broadly a bad name because this is what. people think about religious people that. we're more interested in imposing our. faith or our or our values or our. beliefs on others instead of living it. out ourselves. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> what do you think this is in response. to? Like why why do you think they're. trying to impose this? What is like what. would make them want to put this in. schools? >> I think fear.

>> Fear. And I get that fear. I just I I. want to acknowledge that I also feel. this fear that, you know, I look across. my church on Sunday mornings and I see a. lot of gray hair. Um I worry about the. future of my church, of my faith in this. country. I you know, you everyone has. seen the the charts of declining. religious participation and and the. decline in the number of people who. belong to faith. >> What do you think that's about? I think a lot of it is um is well.

justified because organized religion has. done a lot of damage to people. particularly if we're talking about. about this country about this country. it's going to be Christianity right now. you know you know in India it may be a. conversation about Hindu nationalism but. but here. >> the dominant religion is Christianity um. and. and you know we've seen that too many. churches too many faith leaders have. abused that trust. Um, a lot of Gen Z, a.

lot of my fellow millennials when they. hear me talking about, you know, my my. faith and how it informs my my public. service, they're like, I've I've never. heard of this kind of Christianity, right? Like I was told that if you. wanted to be a Christian, you had to get. hate gay people. Uh, if you want to be a. Christian, you had to want to control. women. Uh, if you wanted to be a. Christian, you had to reject science. And so when Gen Z and and when. millennials were faced with that choice, it was a pretty easy choice for them, right? They chose their gay friends,

they chose women's rights, they chose. believing in science. And that, in my. opinion, was always a false choice. Um, and in fact, a lot of those positions. that I just mentioned are are contrary. to biblical values, to the teachings of. Jesus. And so, you know, there's always. going to be progressive Christians and. conservative Christians. That's a very. healthy debate we should always have. But in this country, it's become. synonymous with right-wing politics. So. much so that when people hear I'm a. Christian politician, they just assume. I'm I'm a Republican.

>> I mean, so it's just I think that has. pushed a lot of a lot of people away. >> So where does that come from? Okay, let's let's start with gay. Yeah. >> Where where does this rejection of gay. rights come from? >> Well, I think broadly we should say that. using religion to control the people is. a tale as old as time, >> right? I mean, this is powerful stuff. Um, it's part of why I made the decision. to go to seminary. >> cuz I was like, if I'm going to talk. about my faith, um, >> and my beliefs and my values in a public.

setting or on this podcast when millions. of people are going to listen, I better. know what I'm talking about. Um, I I. better be thoughtful in how I I approach. these things because it has real power. on people's lives. And so, I think um, you've seen that from the beginning of. the Christian tradition. You've seen it. across traditions of those in power, whether it's people with political. power, social power in terms of. homosexuality. um or economic power using that faith to.

hurt and control other people. >> You know, let's let's take the the issue. of homosexuality in particular. Um one. is something Jesus never talks about. even though uh gay people existed in the. ancient world. >> Is it in the Old Testament? So there in. the Old Testament, there is a a. prohibition against men lying with other. men, >> right? >> And here's the thing, and any biblical. scholar will tell you this, in in a lot. of ways, we're dealing with ancient. euphemisms. And it's hard to tell what a.

euphemism means thousands of years. later, right? Um, I had a professor at. seminary. This is gonna sound weird, but. he was like, "Think about 2,000 years. from now, how difficult it'll be for. people to tell the difference between a. butt dial and a booty call, right?". Like, those are two things that sound. very similar on a piece of paper and. they have very different meanings. >> And so, that's funny, >> you know? So, like in in uh in the. Hebrew Bible, you do have this this. prohibition. We're not sure exactly what.

it means. And and if we're taking it. just literally, does that mean that. we're also pro we're prohibiting. same-sex relationships between women? Right? Cuz that's not prohibited in in. that particular scripture. >> How is it described? So what is the. actual passage? I. >> I mean that's that's the one I just gave. to you about. >> what is the punishment? >> I mean I think in in most of these u. violations of the law, you know, the. punishment if it's, you know, called an. abomination, this punishment can. sometimes be death. And this is true of.

eating certain foods, of planting two. crops, different crops next to each. other, >> wearing two different types of cloth. >> Sure. And again, >> again, I'm not a rabbi, so I I hesitate. to be able to speak with authority on. the Jewish scriptures, but you know, these were this was a a people who had. um who had found freedom from slavery in. Egypt. And they were trying to be able. to set themselves apart from that that. domination that they knew in Egypt. They. wanted a a completely new world where.

God was in charge, not some pharaoh, not. some emperor. So this was a radical. community they were trying to build. And. so they put rules in place to remind. themselves that while it may only take a. few, you know, may take uh a few weeks. to get out of an empire, it takes a. lifetime to get the empire out of you. So we now 2,000 3,000 years later in. terms of the Jewish scriptures, we're. now reading it with modern eyes trying. to interpret what they mean and then. apply it to our modern context. One, I.

think that's sloppy theology. Two, I. think it's disrespectful to the Jewish. people. Three, it's a misunderstanding. of Christianity because the whole idea. of of Jesus's movement was that he was. um simplifying the law, right? He. simplified it into two commandments. Love God and love neighbor. Those are. the only two commandments that that we. Christians should keep our focus on. And. Jesus regularly got into conflicts with. the religious authorities. Right? Jesus.

is always getting in trouble with the. church of his time because he is. rejecting legalism and embracing the. spirit of the law which is loving your. neighbor as yourself. And so in our. modern context that should mean loving. um our gay neighbors as ourselves. Um, and so to me, you know, when I'm looking. at the teachings of Jesus, I think it's. very clear how we should treat those who. are different, those who are left out, those who are who are on the edges. And. I think trying to to take the Hebrew.

tradition and and interpret it for our. own political benefit is is really just. a lot of violence to that scripture. I. mean, the word homosexuality wasn't even. invented until the 19th century. >> So, if you see the word homosexuality in. your Bible, that's an interpretation. That's a translation um of and using a. word that didn't even come around until. thousands of years later. >> Well, what do you think it meant in the. Old Testament though? If you're looking. at a literal translation of it, a man. lying with another man is an. abomination. What do you what do you.

think they were trying to accomplish? And where do you think it came from? >> It could be a whole host of things. I. mean, some of these things were put in. in place for health reasons. um you know. obviously they didn't have modern. medicine and so you know if there were. things that were considered hazardous um. to your physical well-being sometimes. those were included in in in the law um. preserving family structure right um you. obviously had a patriarchal structure in. the ancient world where it wasn't just. about you know your commitment to your.

wife it really was about um you know. what will how land and wealth be passed. on to children um and so all those. things were important to protect protect. that family structure. So, some of these. some of these um these ancient. commandments, which again, I don't claim. to to know what the original meaning. was, may have been put in place for some. of those reasons. But again, if this was. something that. really was central to Jesus's ministry,

I would think he would have said. something about it, right? We have four. gospels with tons of teachings from. Jesus and none of them are about this. So it just I get suspicious when anybody. whether it's a a televangelist or a. politician tells me that something is. central to my faith when Jesus never. talks about it. >> To me that should I think ring alarm. bells um as to what is the agenda here. um what is someone trying to to get. across? And I think if we're looking at. the last 40, 50 years, the religious.

right has made a concerted effort to. make homosexuality and abortion the two. biggest issues for Christians. And you. know, the Southern Baptist Convention. was pro-choice until the late 1970s. So. this this idea that to be a Christian. means you have to be anti-gay and. anti-abortion, there really is no. historical, theological, biblical basis. for that opinion. Well, when was. abortion even invented? >> Well, there was certainly abortions in.

the ancient world. There there. >> well, there's some there's and again, I. haven't stated this enough to to say. this definitively, but there are. interpretations of certain passages from. the Torah where some folks will even say. that there is a um there's some subtle. instructions for how to perform an. abortion in the ancient world, certain. things to drink, things like that. Um, the point is that this idea that there. is a set Christian orthodoxy on the. issue of abortion is just not rooted in.

scripture. We can have a an honest. debate about it. If Pope Francis, you. know, were to come back and sit at this. table and tell me, you know, James, I'm. pro-life and anti-abortion. Here's my. theological argument. I I am here to. listen and respect that opinion. I have. I have dear friends who who are. anti-abortion. All I'm asking is that. for Christians who are pro-choice and. who respect the bodily autonomy of women. that we be given the space to make our. theological argument because I think.

there is a lot of of biblical evidence. to support that opinion. >> What do you think is the biblical. evidence to support the opinion of being. proabortion? >> So one, you know, uh in Genesis, God. creates life by breathing life into the. first human being, which we later call. Adam. that life starts when you take. your first breath and that is actually. the the the the mainline position in. Judaism is that that's when life starts.

Then if you think about it from a. Christian perspective, what something. interesting that Jesus does throughout. his ministry is he is breaking first. century norms about women. um talking. with women, uh learning from women, having women lieutenants in his. movement, and this was something that. was kind of unheard of in the first. century. The longest conversation Jesus. has with anybody in the whole Bible is. with the Samaritan woman at the well. And so this this affirmation of of women.

as full and equal people is a huge part. of the Jesus movement, especially the. early church. And then the last I think. um story I would go to is the story of. Mary. Mary is probably my my favorite. figure in the Bible. Um the mother of. Jesus and you know she is um she's an. oppressed peasant teenage girl living in. poverty under an oppressive empire as a. Jew. and she um she has a vision from.

God that she's going to give birth to a. baby who's going to bring the powerful. down from their thrones, going to. scatter the the proud, who's going to. send the rich away empty. I mean, this. this revolutionary song that she sings, it's called the Magnificat. It's. actually been banned by certain uh. authoritarian regimes because it is so. radical. But I say all this in terms of. in context of abortion because before. God um comes over Mary and and we have.

the incarnation, God asks for Mary's consent, which is. remarkable. I mean, go back and read. this in in in Luke. I mean, the the. angel comes down and asks Mary if this. is something she wants to do, and she. says, "If it is God's will, let it be. done. Let it be. let it happen. So to me. that is a an affirmation in one of our. most central stories that creation has. to be done with consent. You cannot. force someone to create. Creation is one.

of the most sacred acts that that um. that we engage in as human beings. But. that has to be done with consent. It has. to be done with freedom. And and to me. that is absolutely consistent with the. ministry and life and death of Jesus. And so that's why I that's how I come. down on that side of the issue. Again, I'm very open for my fellow Christians. to disagree with that. And they may have. um scriptural passages they point to um. to be anti-abortion. And I think that's a debate that that we.

should feel comfortable having. All I'm. saying is that it shouldn't be assumed. that just because you're a Christian, you are anti-gay or anti-abortion. because there are so many Christians out. there who who don't uh subscribe to. either of those policy positions. So. there's a lot of nuance if you're if. you're talking about abortion, right? Because you're you're not just talking. about a woman's right to choose, but. you're also talking about.

rape and incest. >> That's right. >> Right. So you're you're you're talking. about a woman's right to choose whether. or not she carries a baby when it was. not her choice to begin with. >> That's right. And it's why I think that. almost everyone in this country is. pro-choice to some extent because the. polling indicates that the vast majority. of Texans, the vast majority of. Americans support exceptions for rape, incest, or threats to the mother's. health. >> Yeah. Now, I've had arguments with.

people that don't support that, though, which is interesting. They say the the. argument that they give is that two. wrongs don't make a right. And you know, it's a crazy argument because they're. even talking about it with underage. girls, >> but at least they're consistent. Again, if if you believe that a fetus is a. person now, >> well, it certainly has the potential to. be a person, right? >> Well, and a fetus is alive in terms of. just biologically alive. But we we do. have literally trillions of living. organisms in us right now. >> But they don't have the potential to be.

a full-g grown human being. >> Absolutely. But the question is, is a. fetus or is an embryo a person with full. legal rights that trump the rights of a. woman? Because if or a girl, as you. mentioned, because if you're if you're a. 16-year-old girl who's been raped, does. that embryo or that fetus, does it have. does its rights trump the rights of that. girl, >> right? >> Or the life and and I just I say no. I. think most Americans say no. And to me, that exposes kind of the lack of support. for fetal personhood. Again, we can have.

conversations about limits to abortion, all of those things, but I I I do think. it's clear that most Americans believe. that a woman or a girl should have uh. the autonomy to make those decisions. about their own body. >> I think most Americans probably would. agree with that, but I think also most. Americans are very uncomfortable with. the concept of late term abortions. >> Sure. Yeah. And I would say. >> what is your what are your thoughts on. late term abortions? Well, I think if. you look at the data, the late term.

abortions that happen are almost. exclusively to save the life of the. mother because I mean now you're talking. about people who have picked out a name, who have bought a crib, >> people who want this baby. And so the. only time this happens is is for um is. for, you know, immediate. life-threatening medical reasons, >> right? But there there are exceptions to. that, right? There are people that. change their mind. >> Well, and and I, you know, I think. within Row versus Wade, there was a.

legal framework for states to be able to. make decisions about how you regulate. abortion. >> And so, if a state decides that they. wanted to ban elective late term. abortions, if those things happen, then. that was completely fine within the. framework of Row versus Wade. But we're. not having that conversation, right? We're having a conversation about a. total extreme ban on abortion here in. Texas. The thing about Row versus Wade though. was Row versus Wade. The the issue was. that it was a federal thing and that it.

was supposed to be up to the states to. make their own decisions, right? So, how. did it get passed in Texas that it was I. think it's 6 weeks, right? Which is very. early, which this point with a lot of. women don't even realize that they're. pregnant. Well, and this and that was. the the original ban that that passed. But then Texas had a trigger law in. place, which was if Roie Wade is. overturned, which it was, then Texas. would automatically ban abortion in all.

cases. So, no longer a week uh um a. weekby-eek framework. It was a total. ban. So there was that that original um. original ban that went into place, but. then that was because row was overturned. was then uh replaced by a total ban. So. in Texas, again, we're not recognizing. any of the shades of gray in this. conversation. Um it is the most extreme. ban in the country and we've seen the.

devastating consequences of it. We saw. Texas women who were forced to wait in. emergency room parking lots until they. went into sepsis. Uh I mean we've seen. um women banned from using public. highways to travel out of state to get. an abortion. I mean that's what they. were just trying to do in Lebec was. prevent women from using public. highways. >> But there was also the thing where they. were trying to go after women that. traveled to other states. >> Right. Yes. >> Yeah. And they and even if there was no. evidence like say if a woman travels to.

see her in-laws or her her parents or. something like that and then has a. miscarriage, >> right? >> That was that to me was very creepy that. if this woman had traveled somewhere. where abortion is legal and then lost. her baby, they would then be accused. even if they had not had an abortion. They would be questioned. And that to me. is incredibly insensitive, especially when you take into. consideration that some of these women. might not have had abortions at all.

They might have just lost the baby, which happens quite often where there. are miscarriages. It's it's interesting you bring up. miscarriages because, you know, if I'm. again trying to take people at their. word, trying to assume the best. intentions and and hear a good faith. argument on the other side of this, if. my concern is with the life of an embryo. or the life of a fetus, the greatest. threat to that life is a miscarriage. I. I mean, if your if your concern is is.

how many embryos or fetuses we're. losing, the the the number that we lose. to miscarriage versus the number we lose. to abortion, I mean, it's dwarfed. And. so, I'm always I'm always interested why. the pro-life movement is not more. interested in figuring out how we. prevent more miscarriages because if. again, if your concern is is is that um. embryionic life, seems like finding ways. to prevent miscarriage, which we have. best practices that can do it, right? making sure people are covered by health. insurance um once their pregnancy.

starts. I mean, that is that's a that is. a huge opportunity to prevent. miscarriages. You're not going to. prevent all of them, but there are. things we could do to to stop it. And so. the fact that all the attention is on. abortion rather than on some of these. other things that maybe we could all. agree on to me again it it makes me. suspicious about the true motives of. some of these politicians and some of. these these um activists who are pushing. some of these bans because it doesn't. seem like it's about children. It. doesn't seem like it's about mothers and.

women and girls. It does seem like it's. about control. Um, and I think that's. what we see across this Christian. nationalist movement is controlling what. you do with your own body, controlling. what you read, uh, controlling what you. learn, controlling where you travel. I. mean, this is religion at its worst, >> right? >> Is trying to control people and what. they do. >> How do you define Christian nationalism? What is that to you? >> Yeah. So, I think there's lots of. different ways you could describe it. The way I define it is a little broader.

Um, I say Christian nationalism is the. worship of power. um whether it's social power, economic. power, political power in the name of. Christ. And and I think it's relevant to. describe it this way because it's. something we've struggled with within. the Christian church from the very. beginning. So the first followers of. Jesus didn't even call themselves. Christians. They called themselves the. way because their crucified teacher had. taught them a different way of being. human. um a different way of relating to.

other people of of understanding your. relationship to neighbor and to God. And. this transformed them. They became these. um peculiar people is how the Bible. describes it because they didn't. participate in the economy, the. military, the culture. Um they were. persecuted because they turned the world. upside down. Again, that's how it's. described in Acts. But 300 years after. that, after the Roman Empire crucified. Jesus,

Emperor Constantine made Christianity. the official religion of that very same. empire, the same empire that crucified. Jesus. So this is 300 years later and. now Christianity is the official sponsor. of of the empire of Western. civilization. >> Do you think Constantine was a Christian. like legitimately or do you think that. he was using it? It's always hard to tell uh with. politicians. And I say this as a. politician myself. >> When was Constantine baptized? >> Well, he was baptized I don't know the. year, but he was baptized after he had.

this this um this vision before a a. decisive battle when he saw the cross. and and decided uh that his soldiers. would put the cross as part of their. emblem and they won that battle, right? um which you know who knows if it was. because of his vision or not but it. started a trend which we've struggled. with for literally you know more than. 1500 years of powerful people you know. emperors billionaires.

uh dictators. um megaurch pastors using religion to. protect their own wealth and power. >> Yeah. >> And to me Christian nationalism is just. the latest iteration of that. Whether. it's the Ten Commandments bill, whether. it's the bill, I don't know if you if. you read about this, a bill that we. passed that allows schools to replace. school counselors with untrained, unsupervised religious chaplain. Um,

sometimes people who go online and. become a chaplain within, you know, 5. minutes. You know, that to me again is. an example of Christian nationalism. It's it's using the state. It's using. political power to elevate one religious. tradition over all the others. It's. using governmental power to dominate our. neighbors instead of loving them as. ourselves, which is exactly what we're. called to do as Christians. Um, and then. of course, most recently, we saw this. bill that defunded public schools here. in Texas to subsidize private Christian.

schools. Um and and to me again that is. a a bill that's right in the middle of. this Christian nationalist movement to. erode the separation of church and state. and um force a certain interpretation of. Christianity on everybody against their. wills. >> Yeah. There's this this narrative that. this is a Christian nation. This is it. was founded as a Christian nation. And I. think they they call upon that. >> Yeah. when they're making these.

decisions and talking about it in this. very particular way. >> Yeah. And and I think no no one would. disagree that Christianity was was. influential in the founding of this. country. Um and it's still influential. I mean it's suffused throughout our. culture, our politics. Um it is a. central part of who we are as a nation. But I think it's really important to. clarify that we were not founded as a. Christian nation. we were founded as a. nation where you are free to be a.

Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Sikh. or a Buddhist or an atheist. I mean that. is the that's the promise of America is. that we are this multicultural melting. pot um where no no one is told how to. pray um and no religion is elevated over. the others. >> It's also important to point out that it. wasn't in the pledge of allegiance until. communism was an issue in this country. >> Yeah. And and you know, to be fair, the. the Declaration of Independence does. mention a creator. And now it doesn't. necessarily mention the Christian God,

but it does mention a creator. I think. probably in a in a deliberate attempt to. be um less sectarian um and more open. I. mean, a lot of our founders, if we're. being honest, um some of them weren't. religious at all, you know, Thomas. Payne, and then a lot of them weren't. really what we would consider Christians. today. A lot of them were deists. um. where they you know they saw the they. saw God as this impersonal clock maker. who created the universe and then. stepped away. >> clock maker.

>> and I'm not I'm not um. >> that's an interesting way of describing. it. >> well and I'm not I'm not casting. aspersion that yeah. >> where did you come up with that. >> I think this is this is how Das would. describe it because the univer. >> describe it as a clock maker really. >> yeah that the universe is and and it's. because they were enlightenment thinkers. so they they were enthralled by physics. and and the natural science scientists. >> and they saw uh that the universe fit. together in this perfect way almost like. a a clock or a watch and and so they.

assumed that God was this this watch. maker this clock maker and then kind of. stepped away from from God's creation. >> That is a very different view. It's not. an invalid view. I don't mean to cast. dispersions on that view, but it's very. different than than a lot of Christians. today who have a personal relationship. with God and feel God's um intervention. in in our lives and in our world. And so. those are those are very different kinds.

of religious. And so for Christian. nationalists today to say, you know, that our founders were these evangelical. Protestant Christians is is just not. quite historically accurate. Um these. were enlightenment thinkers. They had. their own suspicions of religion. I. mean, Thomas Jefferson created his own. Bible where he took out all the. miracles. >> Really? >> Yeah. Um, >> he also owned slaves. >> Well, yeah. I mean, and then all these. guys had. >> pretty anti-Christian, >> I would say. So, but again, Christianity.

was used to justify slavery. >> It was also used by abolitionists to. tear it down, >> right? Um, Christianity was used by Bull. Connor and and um and white officials in. the South to maintain Jim Crow and it. was also used by Dr. King and the civil. rights movement to tear down that. system. >> So, you know, faith, it's really in the. the hands of the user. Um, it can be. used to do a lot of damage to people, but it can also be used to move us. toward a more just and and loving world.

>> That's where it gets weird, right? It's. like we need someone who interprets. faith in a way that is beneficial for. all and not. personally beneficial or bene beneficial. to their ideology or the narrative that. they're trying to push. Right. >> Well, and I honestly think if I'm being. my most hopeful self. >> Yeah. >> That Gen Z and and millennials, young. people are going to be the ones to lead. us out of this because. >> because let me Tik Tok. No,

>> because of the Tik Tok. because they're. addicted to video games. >> because like what is it? >> Because there is power in dis. disillusionment. >> Okay? >> Because that's fertile ground. So let me. okay. >> let me back up. So in in um in my faith. tradition. Jesus is not um not just a great. teacher. Uh Jesus is the embodiment of. the pattern of the universe. Right. This. is trippy trippy stuff. I like trippy. stuff.

>> Yeah. um that he in his person, his. life, his death, his teachings that we. somehow learn something about God, this. ultimate reality. And Jesus's life again. in our tradition, the milestones are. incarnation. That's Christmas, right? When when God takes human form, incarnation, by the way, is not just. limited to Jesus. It's everybody, right? Everybody um bears the image of the. sacred, right? Joe Rogan does, James. Saler does, every listener to this. podcast bears the image of the sacred,

made in the image of God. A radical. view, right? >> So that's incarnation. The second is. crucifixion, right? That's good Friday. where Jesus because he confronts the. powerful is executed on a cross, a. humiliating death along with other. criminals. And then the last step is resurrection. that something new and beautiful rises. from those ashes. So those three things,

incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, that's the pattern of the universe. Again, just take religion out of it for. a second. Let's just think like a. physicist or a biologist. Creation, destruction, recreation. I mean, that is. the story of the physical universe. Um, it's the story of our lives, right? That. we are all headed toward a brick wall at. the end of this, right? There is birth, death, rebirth. Hindus would say. reincarnation. Right? This this pattern.

of reality is something that's. recognized across traditions. I say all this in response to your. question because. all of us in our faith start off with. order, disorder, and then reorder. If we get to. the that last step, um all of us kind of. inherited a faith from our parents. It. was usually pretty stable. Um, we didn't. ask any questions. Um, and it was. comforting, right? You were childish in. the best in the best sense of that word,

innocent. You go, you grow up, you have. experiences, you meet new people, you're. exposed to new ideas. Suddenly, you. start to question all those things that. you were taught. And now you have. disorder, disillusionment, right? That. maybe what I was told wasn't real. Maybe. there's maybe this isn't right. Maybe. I've got to question everything. And. that's healthy. and essential. You need. that crucifixion to break apart what was. there before. That third step of resurrection,

reincarnation, rebirth, reorder, however. you want to describe it. To me, it feels. like that's what we're on the precipice. of. And it does feel like young people. in particular are the ones that are. asking these questions because young. people have always on every major issue. have usually been the ones who have been. able to kind of think outside the box. and see things a new. But it does feel. like they are waking up to how broken. organized religion is and they are. starting to yearn for something bigger. and something better and something. that's more more true and more honest. I.

I hear from from people all day long, yes, on TikTok, but also in in real life. where they're just like, I I I want a. relationship with God and I'm just not. sure how to find that. I mean, I think that's maybe it was the. pandemic, but there is something brewing. out there where people they're hungry. for something bigger and deeper. Um, so. again, that's me on my hopeful days. I. also have my days where I'm more. cynical, but. >> what happens on your cynical days?

>> So, I actually I so I'm in my fourth. term in the Texas House. Um, so and. they're two-year terms, so that's um. eight years. Uh, in my second term, I. kind of had a a crisis of confidence, I. guess, a um, it was a brutal session. It. was a lot of really vicious fights on. the House floor, a lot of really. terrible bills. The abortion ban, which. we just talked about, was passed in that.

sec in my second term. And I just kind. of I honestly lost faith in in the. impact I was making and maybe even in. democracy as a whole, whether this thing. was even going to work. This idea that. we were all going to try to solve our. conflicts nonviolently and peacefully. through a political process. I don't. know. All of that kind of I started to. doubt um in a profound way the work I. was doing. And throughout my life, whenever I've.

felt that doubt, I've always fallen back. on faith. Faith is the thing that is. kind of the foundation for me. And so in. that second term, I had thought about. quitting altogether. I thought about. resigning my seed and just going off to. do other things that maybe would be more. fruitful. But through a lot of praying. and a lot of soulsearching and a lot of. meditation, I made a slightly different. choice, which was to go to seminary and. go back to school and go through the. process of becoming a minister. My. granddad was a Baptist minister in South.

Texas and so it was a part of my part of. my upbringing and I had really not. thought about doing it myself, but I. think I had just. um. loving thy neighbor is really hard. sometimes. And I the work I do in the legislature. is my attempt to love my neighbor. through the bills I pass, through the. work that I do on prescription drugs, on. child care, on public schools, on. justice reform. Um, but I was losing.

faith on whether I was actually doing. what I came here to do. And so I'd made. that decision to go to seminary to. follow Jesus's first commandment, which. is to love God. Those are the two. commandments he gave us. Love God and. love neighbor. And as a seminarian and a. lawmaker, I'm kind of I'm starting to. figure out how these two commands, how. they relate to each other, how they. sustain each other. Um, you need that. that inner life, which I feel like I'm. cultivating at seminary, and then you. also need this outer life of how does.

that impact your relationships and the. work you do out in the world. >> And you really can't have one without. the other, because if you do the the. second one, the work out in the world, you can burn out so easily, which I I. think I was about to burn out in that. second term. Um, if it's you can burn out if it's not. sustained by that love of God. And. again, I don't mean God as that word is. charged for a lot of people. I don't. mean like a sectarian. religious orthodoxy definition. I just. mean that ground of your being, whatever. that is.

>> Anyway, I don't know if it answers your. original question, but. >> what was the the main struggle? Like. what what were you facing in the house. that was causing you to have this. crisis? Well, so there were several. bills I mentioned the abortion ban. Um, the human beings though, was it the the. actual. >> So, so the bill this was the straw that. broke the camel's back. Um, toward the. end of that legislative session, my. Republican colleagues brought a.

again, this is the most this is the way. I would describe it, a voter suppression. bill, making it more difficult to vote. in the state of Texas. Again, Texas is. is probably the hardest place to vote in. the country just in terms of the. paperwork, the requirements, the the the. hoops you got to jump through. >> How so, though? >> Um, there's a whole host of things. Um, you know, the fact that we don't have. online voter registration in this state. when a lot of other states do. I mean, think of all the things you do online. Voter registration is not one of them. >> The IDs that now count for for.

registering to vote or voting are very. selective. So, for instance, you got a. concealed carry license. that license. counts as ID, which I agree that it. should, but a student ID from a college. or university doesn't count as an ID. >> You have to get a driver's license. >> Yeah, you got to go get a driver's. license. Um, and again, >> passport. Passport. >> Yeah, passport. But again, I didn't have. a passport for most of my life, right? I. didn't I didn't travel outside the. country till I was, you know, an I was. in my 30s. Um, and so I didn't have a.

passport. A lot of people don't have a. driver's license, especially older. folks. Um, so the point is that these. rules get added on top of each other and. make it even more difficult. One of the. main. >> What are these rules? What what's the. reason for these rules? Is the rules. they're trying to keep people that are. non-citizens from being able to vote, right? >> Well, not exactly. I mean, there is that. concern. There's all but and here's. where it kind of breaks down. The main concern is voter voter. impersonation,

>> which is the idea that I would show up. to vote as if I was someone else, like I. was going to go and impersonate Joe. Rogan and vote for Joe Rogan. >> That does happen though, right? >> Vanishingly few incidences of this. happening because it requires Should. there be zero? >> Yes, of course. and and Ken Paxton um. you know decides to he's our attorney. general here in Texas decides to spend. millions of dollars trying to find voter. fraud right to try to prove that this is.

a widespread problem and you know if he. comes up with anything it's usually like. one or two cases of some mom who made a. mistake on our form I mean the secretary. of state here in Texas a Republican said. that our elections are safe and secure. so I'm all for making sure that our. elections have integrity. I think you. have to have that in democracy. My. concern though is when some of these. bills are adding unnecessary regulations. on top of that just to make it harder. for some folks to be able to vote rather. than make everyone um you know have the.

same opportunity to vote. >> Who do you think they're trying to make. it harder for? >> I think young people. You know, I. mentioned this this issue of of um. colleges, universities, and those. student IDs not being eligible. Two, in. Texas, you've got to change your. registration every time you move. counties. Not necessarily if you move. within a county, but every time you move. counties. This is something we don't. have to do. Like we have there are. logistical systems in place where we. could track voter registration across. counties. >> But think about the people that. disenfranchise uses, the people who move. a lot,

>> who moves a lot. Young people move a. lot. every time you get a new job, get a. new apartment, if you go to a college or. university, then you are moving and your. voter registration has essentially been. erased until you redo it. >> And young people are more likely to vote. progressive and liberal. >> I mean, I don't even know if that's true. anymore because, you know, a lot of uh. uh young people voted for President. Trump in the last election. I think. that's because a lot of young people. felt very disenfranchised by some of the. laws that were being passed by the. previous administration and some of the.

actions they were taking to suppress. freedom of speech. >> Fair. I think it's fair. My point is. when Republicans in in in my in my. workplace try to disenfranchise certain. groups. I I think it's almost um they. should give themselves more credit uh. and and believe in their ability to. actually win over those groups, right? Instead of trying to make it harder for. young. >> to them though, you know, >> well, but but my point is instead of. making it harder for young people to. vote, why don't you just go out and try. to win their votes? Clearly, Donald. Trump was able to do it. And if Donald.

Trump was able to do it, I think more. Republicans should feel they they can. compete for those votes. Polition is a. good thing. And. >> a lot of the reason why people were. voting for Trump was a rejection of the. previous administration. And the idea. that this was a continuence, that the. Kla Harris administration would be a. continuence of the previous. administration. Yeah, I think that's. true. But again, I'm arguing for my. Republican colleagues here. Um, I do. think there is something that Donald. Trump tapped into. I think that other. Republicans could tap into. And again,

this is weird because I'm a Democrat. making an argument for Republicans. The. reason I'm doing this is I think when. politicians feel that they can win over. voters, we all compete to win over those. voters and that leads to better public. policy. Right? If you write off voters, >> Sure. Then that leads to extremism in. your policym because you're only focused. on pleasing your people. >> Well, that was a that was an issue with. young men. >> Yes. Yep. >> And so the fact that I do think the. Republican party can speak to this this.

desire to um to uh to be an. entrepreneur. You know, Democrats too. often, my party, we think that that. people are going to be happy with a. handout. >> No one I I've never met someone who. wants a handout, right? I mean, people. want to work. >> You've never met someone who just wants. free money? >> I actually haven't. >> I have. >> Have you? >> Sure. >> I should hang out with different people. >> Well, there's a lot of people that just. want the government to take care of. them. >> Here's the thing. I think some people. may think they want that. >> Mhm. >> And let's take the government out of it.

Some people think they just want to sit. on their couch, right? >> Uh and I do too, right? When I'm like. exhausted, the the last thing I just. want to I just want to rot. >> My point is after a while. that doesn't make you feel good. >> No. >> Right. every human being you need the. desire to work to produce to contribute. I think that is a natural human urge. that's like built into us. >> That is true. But I also think there's a. lot of people out there that feel. completely disenfranchised and the idea. of working sounds aborant to them. The. idea of giving your life every day to.

something that you hate to do and if. there's enough money out there where. that's not necessary, they would rather. do that. >> I think that's absolutely true. >> Yeah. And I think that one should be. that means that we aren't creating. enough jobs where people can find. meaning. >> How do we create jobs and people find. meaning? >> I don't think you and I you and I have. um and I don't want to speak for you, but I don't think of this role that I. have as work, right? This is something. that I that moves me every day to get.

out of bed and and work on these issues. Mhm. >> Now, I don't get paid to do this, so I. have to actually have a whole another. job. But it's a whole whole different. issue, but there's a difference between. a career and a job. >> Yes. >> I think everyone that I've met, everyone. I grew up with wants a career. >> Yes. >> Um, and that career can look very. differently. That career does not have. to be in a in a office, right? I mean, that career can one can be outside, can. be with your hands, or that career can. be at the home, right? My little sister.

just had um her first child two years. ago. my baby niece Jane and she is she's. stay at home Meline is and she's and. she's um spending so much time time with. Jane and I have never seen my sister. more alive than the work that she's. doing right and she may my sister was a. successful accountant um she worked at. Alamo Draft House uh she had she had. cool jobs. >> um but I think this is the career that. she wants. >> um she knows that she could do other.

things if she wants to um but this is. what's giving giving her meaning in her. life. And I and I want to have kids one. day. So I I definitely see that there's. work that I want to do. Part of why I'm. going to seminary is that this is. something I feel called to do. It's. something that's giving me purpose and. meaning in my life. I just think every. single person deserves that. And and I. don't know the best way to do it, but. how do we give everyone that opportunity. to give the gift that they're meant to. give, right? I mean, we're we're all. here for just a short amount of time. We.

are all so different. There is literally. no one in the history of the universe. that is you, right, Joe Rogan? This this. collection of atoms and elements is only. going to exist once. And thank God you. found a way of how do you shine that. light? How do you give that gift? >> But think of all the people across this. state in this country who don't have a. way to give that. >> What are we missing out on? >> The cure for cancer is trapped in the. mind of of a kid in a low-income school, >> right? the but this is all great. sentiment but what are the actions that.

could be taken in order to give people a. path to a career rather than a job. >> So let's talk about I think we're we're. all either thrilled or um or terrified. of this AI future. Um and who knows what. it's going to look like. It's probably. not going to be apocalypse and probably. not going to be utopia. It'll probably. be something in the middle. But it is. going to change um how we understand. work. It's going to it's going to change. how we understand our jobs and our.

careers. It's going to eliminate a lot. of jobs, I would imagine. And so this is. now going to be a spiritual question. about what does it mean to be a human. being. It's one that we are not equipped. to answer right now because in a lot of. ways we have thrown out the baby with. the bathwater and because of the. problems with organized religion that we. talked about earlier, we've just. jettisoned the whole thing. So, we're no. longer having conversations about what. it means to be a human being. But to get. to your question about what specifically. this could look like, you know, I'm. intrigued by some of the the pilot.

programs on universal basic income and. what they've what they've provided. But. I think what's missing in this idea is. how do you how do you provide people the. support to go off and actually and and. realize whatever dream has been. festering in their brain for a long. time. almost like entrepreneurial. grants, right? Of where we invest in. someone's next big idea for an industry, for art, um whether it is um community. work or nonprofit work or solving a.

community problem. My point is my life. shows me that people are just they have. this this creativity and this. imagination that we are not tapping. into. And it is and and so much of that. is trapped in people who are either in. these meaningless jobs or um or are not. or either gone to, you know, um. inadequate schools and therefore don't. even get into a job where they could. express themselves and give this gift.

But I do know that it's out there and. that if we tap into it, it could be a. gamecher. So I I don't know what this. looks like, but it does seem like the. disruption that's coming could be an. opportunity. Again, back to out of. crucifixion comes resurrection. Disruption is an opportunity to do. something. >> I think it's also very dependent upon. the individual and I think the best. thing we can give them is inspiration. and often times the best thing you can. give them is an example of someone who. also did it. >> Yeah.

>> And so there's a lot of people that feel. completely disenfranchised by the system. that's currently in place now that I. think is going to be upended by AI. So. there is an opportunity for them to do. something completely different. And the. positive aspect of univer universal. basic income is that first of all I. think we could both agree that if an. enormous amount of jobs just go away. that probably is the only way to sustain. society. You can't just have people go. poor and go hungry when we we have.

unfathomable wealth that's being created. by these same systems. Right. Right. So. universal basic income on one hand has a. lot of hope because there there is this. potential that you now no longer so. we're locked into this situation where. you think that you're working and you. have to work because you have to take. care of food and you have to take care. of shelter and that this is what most. people are doing with most people in. this country right now are working check.

to check. They're they're living. paycheck to paycheck and they're. essentially getting by and any. catastrophe, medical or otherwise, will. eliminate all savings instantaneously. and they're doomed. And so what they're. doing is just working, giving most of. their life just to sustain whatever. state they're in currently. And that's. very frustrating for people because they. don't think they ever get ahead and they. don't think they they have any potential.

to get ahead. So if something comes. along that takes care of that aspect of. life. So if universal basic income can. provide you with food and shelter, now. you no longer have to think about food. You no longer have to think about. shelter. Now you have to find meaning. The problem is for a lot of people there. are so many distractions that are. unproductive like social media, like. video games, like many things that. people participate in all day long. And.

then you add in a factor of drug. addiction and partying and a lot of. other fruitless things that people. participate in. If you only were living for the f first. 35 years of your life just to deal with. food and shelter and now food and. shelter is provided for you. Now at 35. you have to sort of reformulate your. view of the world and find meaning. >> and find something. And maybe you're an.

atheist so you don't you don't find. meaning in religion and you don't have. any desire to find meaning in religion. Okay. Well, you what do you do? and how. do you educate these people? And how do. you I I think there's going to be an. upheaval the likes of which we have. never seen before and there's going to. be a lot of chaos and it's going to be. very very uncomfortable for a lot of. people. I think we're going to deal with. unprecedented levels of addiction. whether it is with drugs or with. fill in the blank whatever whether.

gambling whatever things that people get. addicted to because I think. >> people are going to look for thrills. They're going to look for something that. entices them that gives them some. excitement because they're they're just. getting a check every month. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately, just the way humans are. wired that's not good for us. We know. that from We know that from lottery. winners. >> Like people get an enormous chunk of. money. You might win $200 million. You. hit the mega bonus, whatever the hell it. is,

>> and then you're living in hell. >> Yes. >> For whatever reason, you don't like it. You you you now find yourself surrounded. by people that are trying to take money. from you. You feel like you're a target. You uh all the people that you grew up. with and all people that know now. looking for handouts. And it gets really. crazy and most of them wind up penniles. within a short period of time. I think. it's like how many years is it where. most lottery winners wind up broke? I. think it's like less than 20 years even. when they have enormous amounts of.

money. >> Yeah. >> So like. >> the only thing that you can do for those. people is to somehow or another inspire. them to live in a different way. Yeah. >> And I don't think that's a function of. the government. I think it's a function. of individuals and of inspirational. people that can provide some sort of an. example that differs from what they're. surrounded by. >> I agree. And so if we approach this when. it happens, which I agree it's about to. happen and I don't think any of us are.

ready for it. If we approach it as a. technological problem or even an. economic problem, I think we're missing. the the full picture here because I do. agree with you that it is a it is. primarily first and foremost a spiritual. problem. And what I do know about human. beings is that all of us ask these. questions. What is u what does it mean to be a. human? What is all this about? Where is. my life going? Um why are we all here? Right? We I late at night I can assure.

you almost everybody has asked those big. deep questions. That is essential to. being a human being. whether whether. you're religious or not, whether you're. an atheist or not, we all do struggle. with um with these ultimate questions. And I think what's borne out over. thousands of years of our species. history is it's best to wrestle with. those questions in community. >> Yes. Because because right now, especially, you know, on my side of the.

aisle where religion has has declined. um among certain populations, there's. this tendency of like, well, I you know, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, which. which I I'm very open to people who say. that and I understand where they're. coming from, but you want to be careful. that it is not private spirituality. only. Um, meaning that it's only. something that that you own, that only. impacts you and has no relation, no no. connection to other people. Um, I do. think we've got to be a part of.

communities where we ask and struggle. with these questions together. Can look. like a church or a mosque or synagogue. It can also it could also be a a book. club to be honest, right? I mean, or or. a podcast, right? like this this space. in a lot of ways for the whole country. has become a place where people are. having these bigger conversations that. aren't just about your job um aren't. just about the the current events of the. day but something deeper. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think we're going to need that. now more than ever. And right now we're. not equipped.

>> No, I agree too. And there's also a lot. of people that don't have a legitimate. in-person community. >> That's right. >> That's part of the problem too. And you. know and and the people that do reject. the concept of religion. finding an in-person community that. doesn't turn into a cult, >> you know, which is also a problem. because generally these in-person. communities are led by charismatic. people. >> who tend to want all the glory for. themselves and tend to want to be. praised and tend to want.

>> Yeah. And you know, it gets real weird. sexually. It gets real weird with. control and then they impose rules on. the group. Yep. >> It always goes sideways. There's no. there's not a good example of a new. religion or a new cult that's been. formed to like, oh, those guys really. nailed it. You got a benevolent leader. who really just cares about everybody. else who wants the best for everyone, you know? And I think weirdly enough. podcasts do fit into that that space for.

for whatever strange reason. You know, if you can find someone who really does. profess these thoughts that like. genuinely you want good for other people. and and you genuinely want the world to. be a better place and you genuinely. don't want all this for yourself. you. genuinely want people to do better and. that you enjoy it and you take take real. joy in watching people succeed and get. their life together, you know, and find.

purpose, you know, but it's that's rare. Most people are selfish and most people. when they're and they most people also. feel. >> they feel suppressed and they feel. dismissed most of their lives. um and. they they feel suppressed by larger. organizations or more powerful people, more powerful groups. So when they do. get into a position where they have. power of their own, they want to exert. that power on others because this is a.

pattern that they've grown up with. unfortunately. >> Well, and everyone has everyone contains. multitudes. So we are all selfish. I. completely agree with that. >> But I also think we're all selfless too. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> like you know depends on potential, right? I mean it depends on whatever. situation a person is put in and what. >> um what uh what roots someone has to. draw upon. And it's why I feel so lucky. that I was brought up in a in a faith. tradition that really emphasized um my.

own experience as a validator for faith. because what you just described of a. pastor or or clergy consolidating power. um is something we see all too often in. organized religion. And so if you don't. empower your congregation um or someone. who is seeking answers to check. everything based on their their. experience and use that as a measure for. what's true and what's good, >> then you you make people dependent on.

that one guy, >> right? >> Um which is way too much power for one. person to. >> intoxicating, >> right? It has to be you have to use your. own life as a way of saying like, does. this work for me, >> right? >> Um or does it not? Um, does does this. ring true with everything I've lived. through or does it not? Trust yourself. Um, in some ways, >> well, a lot of people don't have a. reason to trust themselves. They don't. have confidence. They don't have a. history of overcoming adversity and. obstacles. >> Y, >> which is also difficult.

>> Yes. >> And this is also the part of the problem. with meaningless jobs. Like meaningless. jobs that don't give you a sense of. purpose, they never develop your feeling. of accomplishment. So, you just exist. And then you you like again you find. yourself 35 36 I don't know why I'm. coming up with that number but this is. like a point of no return where you know. if you haven't had a family by that. point and you haven't had you know real. love and relationships by that point now. your body start needing to get tired. So.

now you don't have the energy that you. had when you were 20. When you were 20. where you could get four hours of sleep. and just still show up and go do things. and you had the courage to say, you know. what, I'm going to quit this thing that. I'm doing and I'm going to go pursue. some completely different thing because. I think I can do it because I'm young. and brash. >> Yeah. >> You know, and when you get older and. then you're, you know, you do have a. bunch of bills. And then one of the. things that I like that you talked about. um was that if we were really a. Christian nation, we would forgive. student loan debt. And uh I I am a big.

fan of that. And I I do not I I do not. like that we are predatory towards young. people and condemn them to loans that. are unforgivable regardless of any other. kind of bankruptcy, which is really kind. of sick. The idea that we have put. education. that may or may not be even helpful for. you in the future and may just be. complete nonsense. Like say say you know.

you spent hundreds of thousands of. dollars getting some. degree in the humanities, getting some. degree in gender studies, some just a. nonsensical degree that you're never. going to get a job from. And now you are. condemned to not just pay that initial. initial debt but with interest forever. There's people right now that are on. social security that are getting their. social security docked. They get chunks. of it taken out to pay for their student. loan debt that they will never pay off.

They will go to the grave in debt for. predatory loans that they took out when. they were so young their frontal cortex. wasn't even fully developed yet. They. didn't have any idea what they were. doing. They were being coerced by a. bunch of people that told them this is. the only way that you have to do this. otherwise you're going to be a loser. >> Right? >> That easily could have been me. I was. very lucky that I didn't fall into that. But I I'm I only went to school. I only.

went to you I went to UMass Boston. I. only went there because I didn't want to. be a loser because I thought you had to. go. >> Yeah. I thought if because I I got tired. of telling people that I wasn't going to. school after high school. >> and so I was like I better just go do. something otherwise like I feel gross. telling people that I I don't I'm not. doing anything. >> Yeah. >> And that that is a sickness in our. culture. That's a sickness in our. society. It's a sickness in our. civilization that we have allowed these.

financial institutions to pray upon the. youngest and most vulnerable people with. inescapable loans that they will carry. with them often for decades and decades. And it's sick. And the resistance to. forgiving that is also sick. It's like. we spent so much money on other. countries. So much money went to US aid. We're, you know, developing foreign.

nations and influencing elections and. regime change. And we're so resistant to. giving people the freedom to have. education. as a thing that doesn't burden you with. financial. ties that you can't escape. >> The idea that you can't escape it even. with bankruptcy is so sick, >> right? It's just a sickness, man. It's. it's you're take and we've just accepted. it. Well, that's just how it is. Well,

someone's making money. Someone's. profiting off of that. So, you're. allowing people to profit off vulnerable. young kids to the tune that where, you. know, the interest compiles every year. and you're stuck with it forever. Why? That's a that's not a situation that. allow Listen, I said this before, but. I'm going to say it again. You want to. make America great again? You want less. losers. Okay. How do you get less. losers? You get less people that are. financially crippled by student loans.

You get less people that grow up in a. neighborhood where there's no hope. We. find neighborhoods that are no that have. no hope and that are riddled with drug. addiction and crime and gang violence. and we just leave them alone and we just. say that's their problem. No, that's our. problem. If we really want to think of. ourselves, the United States of America, as a community, which is I that's how I. like to look at it. I like to think of. us as a big community. I don't like to. think of us as right versus left and.

blue and red and all this nonsense. It's. a bunch of people that agree we're all. the same. So if we are a community, how. are we allowing these places to create. these disenfranchised people generation. after generation and do nothing about. it? >> And those kids were doing exactly what. we told them to do. >> Exactly. >> Right. I mean, they go to school, right? >> Yeah. Go to college. Go to college. >> Again, I you know, I think we've. overcorrected or now we tell every kid.

to go to college, which does a lot of. damage, too, because a lot of kids one, don't want to go to college. to their. their gifts and their skills aren't. going to be fully developed at a. four-year university. >> Also, we're dismissing the value of. trades. Like, my god, how much more. money they make. Great plumber is so. important. Having a great carpenter is. so important. >> Electrician. No, I mean, >> so important. >> And you make and you make it a lot more. money. I mean, the guys I went to high. school with that have a boat out at Lake. Travis are not the ones who went to a.

four-year university like I did. They. certainly didn't study, you know, >> get your head out of the books, >> the nonsensical stuff that doesn't get. you anywhere. >> But, but, you know, I So, I I mentioned. to you before I was a politician, I was. a public school teacher, which is kind. of unusual route. >> to teach serving. I taught sixth grade. language arts at Roads Middle School. >> Oh, that's something that's valuable. >> Well, I often say uh. >> language arts. >> teaching teaching middle school is the. best preparation for politics. Um, it's.

a lot more a lot more like middle school. than people think. Um, the egos, the the. drama, the you know, just all of it is. >> Is it crazy how no one gets past that? >> Yeah. I mean, well, we could talk about this all day, but I have there are lots of stories I. have where I'm just blown away by the. the ego. >> And again, I have an ego. You have an. ego. There's no way you can do this kind. of difficult work without an ego that. >> you know to to be able to say I want to.

make decisions for 200,000 constituents. >> I mean that's the job I have right I. mean that takes a certain amount of ego. >> to make those kind of decisions. >> You just can't let the ego be the. problem. >> Correct. And this was the pro I mean we. focus so much on President Biden's age. which I agree was a problem but I don't. I don't think we've really discussed. that the biggest problem was ego. It was. his inability to step aside and let. someone else do the job. >> Yes. >> Right. I mean, when it should have. happened a lot a lot earlier than when. >> it should have never happened in the.

first place. Let's be realistic. In. 2020, we all knew anybody that was. paying attention knew that he was. compromised. >> Yeah. Well, and that he said he was a. transitional figure. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean he he I don't know. how explicit he was, but he certainly. made it sound like, you know, he was. stepping in so that he could usher in a. new generation and that never happened. because when you get into these offices. and I again I'm just a little state rep. at a low level, >> but even I know like people call you. representative your mail your mail says.

the honorable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. And you're like this feels. pretty good, right? Like people people. you know and you have a bunch of new. friends, right? all the all the. lobbyists are like now you're prof you. know they're professionally friendly. right. >> and all that can go to your head very. quickly. >> I'm sure. >> um and think about someone who's been in. it for 60 years. >> I mean it almost becomes a fused part of. your identity. >> to where you can't step aside everything. is for self-preservation. >> well look at these politicians that are.

in their 80s that are still in office. >> desperately clinging to. >> desperately clinging yeah. >> I mean and I look at these people and. I'm like you have grandkids. >> well it's not just that it's also the. support system that's behind them, right? Because all those people need. that person to stay in office. >> Correct. Yeah. Yeah. They all depend on. But I'm like, if I'm you tell me this um. 60 years from now, if I'm 80 years old. and I'm still in elected office, it's. like go home. >> Well, maybe not spend some time with. your grandkids. You're still valuable at.

I don't I'm not age comes for all of us, right? I mean, >> yeah. But I don't dismiss the. possibility that you could be an elder. statesman and be like very wise and kind. and benevolent and doing a really good. job. >> I guess it just but that to me it. suggests that you think there's no one. younger with more energy who could do. this better. >> Well, why why do you have to have no. energy if you're old if you take care of. yourself? >> So there's a lot of people that have. learned a lot in their time, you know? I.

mean, I you you've got your situations. where you've got like your Nancy Pelosis. where they're clearly using the system. for extreme wealth. They're they're. generating preposterous amounts of. wealth for a a reasonable income. You. know, they may have a reasonable income. of 170 $200,000 a year, but yet they're. worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Like, that's kind of crazy, right? That's kind of crazy that you're. supposed to be that that's above board. That's level. That's okay. That's nuts.

But. >> or or I mean I just just saw the story. about this congressman right before the. big beautiful bill passed and he like. sold all his stock in a company that. does Medicaid reimbursements. >> Oh Jesus. >> So like you know. >> cuz you knew it was coming. Yeah. Crazy. that insider training. And by the way. insider trading everyone wants to like. call like use Nancy Pelosi and his. example. She kind of gets used as an. example just because she's been so good. at it. But if you look at the actual. insider trading, it's red and blue. It's.

the whole thing. It's filled with people. that are benefiting. >> Well, and I So, going into this, um, when I first decided to run, I was 28. Had never run any for anything before. >> How old are you now? >> 36. I just turned 36. >> Um, and I was, like I said, a former. teacher. So, I didn't I didn't know. about how to run for office. How did. >> you decide to run for office? Well, so I. was a teacher on the west side of San. Antonio, which is a for those your. listeners who are in San Antonio, the. west side is this it's this beautiful.

historic neighborhood, Mexican-American. neighborhood. It's also one of the. poorest zip codes in the whole state of. Texas. So, every day I I saw my students. struggling to overcome poverty and and. these systems that were designed to hold. them back. And the school I was at was. underfunded. It was title one school. I. taught 45 kids in one classroom and the. classroom was not that much bigger than. the studio. Oh my gosh. So you may. imagine 45 kids in here, you know, some. I had I literally had kids sitting on.

the air conditioning unit. >> cuz there weren't enough desks. I mean. this is this is this is the 21st century. >> in the United States of America. >> Wow. >> And it pissed me off. I mean I. >> So I had one student I I was a first. year teacher. What happens in schools, especially schools in high poverty. neighborhoods where things are really. hard, you know, the administration of. the school will oftentimes give the the. kids who need the most help, the kids. who have the most troubles to the first. year teachers, right? Almost like a. hazing thing. So, I remember my first.

year of teaching, my principal told me. that I was going to get this kid named. Justin who had gotten kicked out of his. elementary school the year before. because he had brought a knife to school. and threatened to stab his fifth grade. teacher. So, I was again, first year teacher, kind of freaked out, right? The kid. shows up. One, he's not a monster. He's. an 11-year-old boy, right? Like this. high, right? Um, I took him aside, introduced myself, told him I was happy. he was in class, told him I wanted to. get to know him. He gradually started to.

raise his hand a little bit more in. class. He was super smart, um, super. just quick. Um, he also had like a great. smile. He's very popular with the with. the girls in the class. um a lot of. personality and I started to invite him. to our little uh lunch group because I. had kids who came and ate in my. classroom during lunch and um and we. started to kind of build a rapport and. he didn't have a lot of of male. teachers. Um so I think that was helpful. to see a um a guy as a teacher and be.

able to build relationship with him. Anyway, right before winter break that. year, he it's the last day of school. He. brought me this wrapped gift. It was the. wrapping was all janky. But I opened it. up and it was this little cup with a. snowflake on it that he had bought at. the Dollar Tree for his teacher. Again, this is a kid who was going to stab his. fifth grade teacher. Few months later, he's bringing a snowflake cup to his. sixth grade teacher. And I was feeling. like I was on top of the world as a. teacher. I was like, who who's going to. make the movie, right? Like here I am,

right? Um. >> play you in a movie. >> Yeah. Yeah. Who's going to play me? Um. and then I came came back after winter. break. I was in my third period class. and I heard this commotion out in the. hallway. So I immediately stepped out of. the room to see what was going on and. there were two of our coaches and they. were both restraining Justin either side. of him. They were carrying him out of. the school. He was screaming. His feet. didn't touch the ground. Like he. literally was just carried out of the. school. I found out that he had started.

a fight in his third grade class and. that was his last strike and it was. honest. It was the last time I ever saw. Justin. I did some digging to figure out. what had happened. Turns out in the. previous semester, Justin had been. seeing a therapist that was provided by. the school district. And it was this. lady that he really was hitting it off. with and getting along with. And they. were going through all his issues. because Justin had been abandoned by his. mother at a very early age, which. that'll screw anybody up, right?

>> Justin had had experienced violence, had. experienced all this trauma. And so for. the first time, there was a professional. who was helping him work his way through. it. And there was a teacher who liked. him and who believed in him. And that. was all it took for Justin to see all. these improvements. And I found out that after winter break. that because of budget cuts from the. legislature, the district had eliminated. the therapist. >> So this lifeline suddenly went away for. Justin. So literally everybody had. abandoned Justin, including his own.

mother. And now the adults that he was. trying to trust again were abandoning. him. And so that was the kind of. radicalizing experience for me because. these people at the state capital had. cut $5 billion from our schools. Who. knows why? Who knows what the. justifications were, but I saw firsthand. how that screwed up a kid's life. >> I saw the damage that did to real flesh. and blood human beings. And so I. promised myself right then that if I. ever got a little bit of power or a.

little bit of influence that I would do. everything I could with every fiber of. my being to stop that from happening. again. >> So literally Justin and my students are. the ones I think about when I'm at the. capital. They are the criteria that I. use to evaluate public policy. Not if. it's a Democratic bill or Republican. bill. Not if it's going to get me, you. know, ex lobbyist support. It is will. this help my students or will it hurt my. students? Period. and it makes things a. lot easier. I have a picture of my of of.

my one of my class periods on my desk at. the Capitol. So, that is that is what got me into. this whole mess. Um, I miss being a. teacher because I miss having that. immediate impact. All the impact I make. now, if I make any impact at all, feels. very diffuse and far away because. there's always layers. >> Yeah. Um, but I like to think that some. of the bills I'm passing are at least. helping teachers like me and students. like mine. >> That's beautiful. It's beautiful that. you made that decision. And I think.

that's what we need. We need people that. have legitimate personal real life. experience with other people that are. benefiting from certain social programs. and certain things that should not be. cut. I think there's too many wealthy. people that are just very disengaged. with everyone else. And um that that. that's a real concern. And they sort of. huddle up in these elite groups and go. to these elite meetings and have these. conferences. They fly on private jets.

and try to figure out how the world. should operate. >> Climate change on their private jets. >> [ __ ] crazy. It's crazy. It's re It's. really crazy and gross. >> And um I don't think it has anything to. do with climate change. I think it's. like a a boys club, a a weird club where. these elite people get to hobnob and eat. caviar together. >> My point is if you're going to a. conference to discuss climate change but. you're taking your giant private jet. >> I've seen Bill Gates justify that like. because of all his work that he does or. even Bernie Sanders when he's talking.

about campaigning and he was saying how. else am I going to go to all these. different places? >> We go Southwest like [ __ ] comedians. do, dude. We we travel all over the. country too, buddy. Southwest is great. >> Yeah. Listen, when I was traveling, I. was doing a lot more dates than him. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And uh I never took private jets. I was. Look, there's ways to do it. And the. idea that this is only one way to do it. Well, that's No, that's just the the. nicest way. It's certainly more. convenient. It's easier. It's more.

comfortable if you got the money. >> But the idea that you're going to. >> you're going to preach to everybody else. how to live their lives, like you're so. disconnected from most people. Well, I I. would say that I am probably the poorest. member of the Texas legislature. And I'm. not poor, but relatively speaking, most. of the people I serve with either very. successful lawyers who own their own law. practice, doctors and surgeons who. operate their own medical practice, or. it's. >> trust fund babies. No offense, no.

offense to those people, but. >> but yeah, that is a weird thing. >> It's just people who have a lot of. family money. And here's because I. mentioned earlier that I don't make any. money at at this job. Uh-huh. >> So, unlike a congressman, cuz I think. congress people make like 100 150 or. something, which is a real salary. I. make uh $7,200 a year. That's $400 a. month after taxes as a state rep. That's. my salary. Now, I also get a PDM when. we're in session, which is a little bit. more, which is helpful. But my the. reason I say that is because there are.

systematic barriers to a regular person. running for the job that I have. >> Got it. >> Right. Like unless unless you have an. ability to support your family, >> right? >> Or or sustain your life or pay your. bills, a teacher can't run for the job I. have, >> right? >> Uh a firefighter, a police officer, construction worker, you can't run for. state rep. >> Then you wouldn't be able to take time. off and how are you going to do it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the only people who end up serve and. again I I understand why paying. politicians no one wants to do, >> right? Like I understand that I'm not a. sympathetic character here, but when you.

don't you are. >> Well, but when you the problem is when. you don't pay a politician, especially a. state legislator who's making most of. the big decisions about that affect your. life, it's really not people in. Congress. It's the state level people. But if you're not paying them a living. wage, then you're only going to get. trust fund babies and lawyers and. surgeons. >> What do you think is the motivation of. those people that are involved? I mean, do you find people that are benevolent. that are trust fund babies and ser. >> for sure? I mean, FDR wasn't was a trust.

fund baby, right? Like, really? Yeah. I. mean, one of the wealthiest families in. New York, uh, the Kenned, you know, Bobby Kennedy was a trust fund baby and. still sympathize with working people. So, I I don't think that you have to be. born poor uh to be able to do that. I do. think it provides a a helpful helpful. perspective. You know, I was I was born. to a single mom and that experience has. helped inform how I view things. So, a. lot of my colleagues, I would say, just. have no experience. So, for instance,

there was a bill that we passed, unfortunately, that would make it easier. for landlords to evict people. And we. were trying to work with the author of. that bill to add some exceptions for, you know, if you just miss a bill. because you're late, um, you shouldn't. get evicted, right? Like, we're trying. to to build that out. Mhm. >> And the author just kind of had no. conception with how you could miss a. bill, >> right? Like it just cuz when you're that. when you have people who do that, right? Like he was like he was like his. accountant does all that. I'm like, but. when you're a working person, you're. balancing raising kids, working multiple.

jobs, >> right? Maybe trying to exercise when you. can. Like when you're doing all that and. god forbid you have a medical problem, like yes, some stuff falls through the. cracks. >> 100%. and like evicting that family. because of a mistake or because they. missed a bill. To me, it's not that he's. trying to be malicious. It was that he. just had a complete blind spot on what. it was like to be a working person. >> But there's also people that do they are. malicious. They they don't care about. people that are struggling and they only. care about their peers. They care about.

enriching the people that are already. wealthy. Yes, I do feel like those people I have. found are very loving parents and. spouses and even friends. >> Isn't that crazy? >> And to me that means they have just not. they haven't broadened that circle of. concern. >> Uhhuh. >> Right. I'm always because you want to. you want to think some of these people. are just two-dimensional villains. I. sometimes fall. >> victim to that thinking, >> but then I spend time with them. I'm.

like, this person is kind and funny and. good-hearted and treats his wife well. and treats his kids well, treats his. neighbors, his immediate neighbors. >> So, the my challenge is always like, how. do I how do I try to expand that circle. a little bit more to where they care. just as much about. >> a neighbor who lives in a completely. different city. >> than the one who's right next door to. them in Highland Park or River Oaks or. one of these nice neighborhoods, right? >> That to me is the challenge. Um, is. seeing everyone as your neighbor. Not. just the people who live right next to.

you. >> Yeah. >> And that's um you know that's the. central teaching of my faith and in most. most of the great faith traditions. >> I mean that we sometimes we try to. pretend that there's all these diverse. religions and who knows who's right. In. reality there is giant ethical overlap. between the major world religions. There. is literally not a faith tradition that. tells you when someone gets sick see how. much money you can make off of them. >> Right. >> No religion teaches that. None of them. Right. Like. >> Right. Right. you know, there's no one. that's, you know, love your neighbors.

only when they agree with you, right? Like there's just those that's not what. any of the faith traditions teach. Like. there is this this consensus, this. ethical consensus. And the reason I. think we try to pretend that all these. religions are so different is because we. are threatened by that moral consensus. of how you should treat one another, how. we should treat the least among us. And. that's a threat to the people who are in. power, the people who run the status quo. right now. I mean, it upends the status. quo. They, you know, they didn't kill. Jesus for being a nice guy,

>> right? That that's part of the problem. is that the people that are in power. want to stay in power. And the best way. to stay in power is to enrich the other. people around you that are like you and. create laws and create a structure that. allows you to maintain ridiculous. wealth. Yep. and suppress competition. >> and divide everyone to keep them. distracted. This is my personal like the. more I've done this I've done this for.

for uh four terms now. >> I think of politics now less as left. versus right and much more as top versus. bottom. >> Yeah. >> Because. >> I just see how we are all pitted against. each other. And I mean I mean literally. these social media platforms they only. get clicks when there's conflict. >> Mhm. >> Right. They they don't get clicks when. we're having a conversation when we're. understanding each other. Right. >> Right. When we're coming to some kind of. un you know some kind of mutual. agreement that doesn't get anybody any.

profit. >> Right. And so these these the Rupert. Murdochs of the world, the cable news. networks, the social media platforms, the Zuckerbergs and Musks, I mean, these. these platforms are literally tearing us. apart. >> Mhm. >> By design. And I just I I think there. has to be something better than that. >> Well, I don't even know if it's by. design, but that's the way that it's the. most profitable. And I think like. algorithms, like people always like to. want to point towards algorithms as. being by design,

>> but they only work because they work, right? They only work because people do. engage with the things that piss them. off the most. >> That's if we're measuring engagement as. the sole good. Right. >> Right. If we were measuring, >> if we were measuring people's. well-being, >> right? >> Now you have a different metric. >> Right. But it's almost impossible to do. It's like how do you judge? You'd have. to get to an individual human being and. find out why they're engaging with what. they're engaging. What you what you do. when you when you manage at scale is you.

try to figure out what's the best way to. keep people engaged. Well, if if human. nature made you only engage with things. that you're interested in and that is. possible. You can do that. I've done. that. It's possible to do. But. obviously, I'm in a privileged position. to be able to do something like that. But like my friend Ari did this. experiment once where on YouTube he only. looked up uh videos of puppies for like. a long time. That was his whole feed was. puppies. Okay. >> And his you what the experiment the.

reason why he's doing it is he's trying. to show that it's not the algorithm. It's not like the algorithm was feeding. him Holocaust deniers and a bunch of. [ __ ] that pissed him off. It didn't. >> It only fed him puppies. That's what he. was interested in. The problem is people. are interested in things that piss them. off. And I think a lot of that also is a. distraction from your own issues in life. is that you look towards external things. that maybe don't even really affect you. but provide you with a source of uh you.

you can pay attention to them and get. invested in them and get angry and. ignore maybe the shortcomings of your. lack of discipline and your lack of. focus and your the things that are. really holding you back in life. You. know, you can get distracted by some. other stuff. You can get distracted by. some things that may be maybe legitimate. issues, maybe real, but how much do they. affect you in daytoday life, >> right? >> Very little probably. >> Well, I just think we all and I know I.

have this experience of just feeling. terrible when I'm on a lot of these. platforms. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. I mean, it does feel like. everything is making us feel. >> terrible, whether it's the news we're. watching, the TV, the the social media. algorithms. Um, >> but I think this podcast is evidence in. the opposite direction. >> Yeah. >> Because why would people tune in to. these really long conversations with. very different people? I mean, you have. you had Trump and Bernie Sanders in the.

same chair, right? >> So, why are people attracted to that. though? because this is not this is not. clickbait um you know uh stuff on your. feed that's just trying to provoke. conflict for clicks. So clearly this. this format exposes that people do have. a hunger for something healthier, >> something that that builds. understanding, right? >> Yeah. >> So people have both of those things. inside them. I guess. >> I well I think people listen there's a. reason why we have complex technologies,

society, cities, urban develop. It's the reason why we. have all those things is because the. human mind has a genuine there's a a. desire for improvement and for. innovation and to learn. It's it's. normal. Yes. >> But we can be distracted. >> for sure. >> But you have to decide not to be. distracted, you know, and I a lot of my. shows are distracting, you know. A lot a. lot of my shows are complete nonsense. because I can get caught up in nonsense,

too. But uh this shows a reflection of. my own personal interests. >> But it's also long form, right? I mean. the. >> the platforms that I'm the social media. platforms just abuse your attention so. much. >> Do they though or do you allow them? >> Well, do you allow them to take over? They don't abuse mine, >> you know, but they have. >> Do you not do you not use the the. typical platforms? >> Very little. >> Really? >> Yeah. Very very little. I I go on.

Twitter every morning when I go to the. bathroom to find out what everyone's mad. at and then I leave it alone. >> The best place to be on Twitter. >> I basic basically and then even then I. don't feel good and I leave it alone. I. don't look at anything about myself. I I. look at like stuff that's going I follow. like thousands of people. So my my feed. is very diverse. It's filled with all. kinds of different voices. >> Yeah. >> And I just see a few things that people. are pissed off about or people are. interested in. and I find a bunch of. cool science stuff, a bunch of cool, you. know, James Webb telescope telescope.

discoveries and. >> and then I leave it alone. >> But you but you I mean and I to some. extent we we had the privilege of. growing up in a childhood without that, >> right? >> So I just want to acknowledge that for. kids, right? Like they they don't have. the same impulse control. >> 100%. >> So if we're feeding this to them, it's. almost I mean it's just just as bad as. some of the junk food we're feeding. them, >> right? But you know what else is popular. with those kids? me. >> That's right. >> This So, if I tell them I'm not doing it. and I tell them why I'm not doing it.

>> Yes. >> And And I It's clear. >> It's clear by what I pay attention to. It's clear by what I focus on that I'm. not I'm not caught up in that the way a. lot of people are. And um and then I'm. open to a bunch of different. perspectives and ideas. And I and I. welcome them because I I really want to. know how people think about as long as. they're genuine real thinkers as long as. they have good faith arguments and. discussions about things. There's a lot. of people out there in uh particularly.

in mainstream media in corporate media. that just by nature of the format of. those things, they're grifters. >> Yeah. They they latch on to whether it's. a right right-wing perspective or a. left-wing perspective and they're the. champion of that perspective and they. argue with it and they don't see humans. >> It's professional wrestling. >> Yeah. >> And I loved, you know, when I was. growing up, I loved professional. wrestling, you know. I like. >> See, I didn't. >> You didn't. >> I mean, I did when I was in high school. I did when I was a young boy, I should. say. But then once I started competing.

in martial arts, >> an actual sport. >> Yeah. I didn't like it anymore. >> Well, because it's entertainment. >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, it's not a sport. It's I. mean I know there's athletic ability but. you know it's it's the heroes and the. villains. >> Sure it's fun but it's it didn't have. real consequences to me and to me like. real life consequences were so much more. fascinating. Real competition like an. actual real wrestling match between like. two Olympic champions. >> that to me was so much more fascinating. >> Yes. And but you know you you have to.

engage in some sort of a discipline to. appreciate that to appreciate the the. difference between someone who's like. really had like a singular focus in. their life of excellence and trying to. figure out a way to be really good at. something and then watching them compete. with other people that have had that a. similar thing and try to figure out what. separates the champions from other. people and what what are. characteristics. What are those things. and how do those apply to everyday life? And they do apply, right,

>> to everyday life. When I was a kid in. martial arts, one of the things that my. instructor told me at a very young age. is that martial arts is a vehicle for. developing your human potential. >> that you're engaging in this very, very. difficult thing to learn about yourself. Yeah. And that you could apply these. lessons to everything in life. >> And there's too many people that don't. get that lesson. They don't understand. that you you can figure this thing out. and your path is going to be going to be. different than my path. It's going to be.

different from every but there's there's. certain principles that you can apply to. whatever your individual path are and. you can learn about the value of. discipline and of personal autonomy and. and understanding and personal. accountability and figure out how to get. better. You're going to have failures. and they're going to feel awful. They're. going to feel terrible, but they're very. valuable. And those you can't shy away. from them because that's where you. really learn how to get better. And then. your your feelings of success. Don't.

dwell on those either because it's not. about that. It's really about this path. The path is what it's really about. And. it's really about learning how to live. >> Yeah. >> And learning how to exist in a in a. harmonious way. Yeah. with not just. other people but also with yourself. And. you have to have respect for yourself. And the only way you develop respect for. yourself is you have to know what you've. done. >> You have to know that you've worked. really hard, that you've overcome things.

and and known that you've had these. little mental battles where you've had. these little bad ways of thinking that. you've turned around and you've and you. you realize like, okay, that's possible. I did it before. I'm going to do it. again. And you're going to have these. moments where you're like, "Oh, this. one's impossible. I can't get through. it." But you can get through it. >> Yeah. >> And you can and it can be done. And. >> if any if there's anything that I try to. teach people, >> it's what I've done. I I have overcome a.

lot of these little personal demons. I've overcome a lot of these little. things. They're not little. They're. huge. It's huge in your mind. >> But that this can be done. And it's not. going to be done on Tik Tok. It's not. going to be done dedicating yourself to. just [ __ ] off and scrolling and and. playing video games and doing drugs all. day. It's not that's not going to do it. It's not going to do it. It's not going. to help you. And but you can learn. You. can and you can you can be a better.

person and you can respect yourself. more. >> I mean, it's a practice. >> Yeah. It's a practice. And that's it's. the a way of life, right? And again, the. the failures are very valuable and the. successes are very valuable, too. But. you can't you can't dwell on them. either. You just got to keep going. >> Right. Well, and I. >> there's no end. >> And I think the the thing that's. encouraging about both this podcast, but. also the format in general is that it is. long form. And so it it forces you to.

pay attention in a different kind of. way. Right? your attention on Tik Tok or. Instagram or some of these other. platforms, it is so superficial and. shallow and um and that attention I. think is abused on those platforms and. you I think I've talked to people uh in. my own life who feel like the more time. they spend on those platforms, the less. you're able to pay attention to. something. >> Oh yeah. >> Right. In your in your in your daily. life. But the fact and what you. mentioned about martial arts is this. this focus, right? I mean, you can't do.

anything great in your life without that. focus. It's all I mean, this I'm going. to sound like a Buddhist, >> but the ability to kind of control your. own mind. >> and focus that mind and that spirit on. something right in front of you on the. here and now. I mean, that is the key to. all success. And whether you're doing a podcast, whether you're doing sports or or. politics or but. >> it feels like there's a whole generation. of kids who are growing up who aren't. getting that um training for their. attention and it's just getting abused.

and shot and scattered. >> The only way for them to get that is to. see an example of someone who's doing. it. And this is sports. This is where. sports come in where I think uh really. excellent sports figures that that. excel. Yeah. >> That do. they do something that the other people. that are their peers can't do and then. you can learn like what is he doing? What is LeBron James doing that's. different? What what is this guy what is. Ronaldo doing? What what are these. people doing that's different than. anything? >> And almost all of them is discipline and.

focus. That's a giant there's genetic. factors and coaching and where they. started. There's a lot of variables, but. you you can apply those things to your. life. And I think one of the things. that's unique about podcast is that it. was a mistake in that no one saw it. coming like so no one cashed in on it. So no one Well, they it's not cashed in. No one controlled it. Yeah.

>> No one No one dictated how you do it. No. one told you who the questions, >> what what the question should be or how. you should talk to people. You had to. kind of figure it out on your own. So, you got. >> unique individual perspectives that are. legitimate. They're they're authentic. And authenticity is the thing that's. missing from television news. It's. missing from It's missing from anything. that's corporate controlled because you.

wouldn't allow it to be so so scattered, >> right? >> And so chaotic and so kind of dangerous. because, you know, like if you're. banking all your money on on something. succeeding, you would want to narrate. it. You would want to curate it. You'd. want it. But it doesn't work that way. and humans don't work that way. And I. think in this landscape where we don't. have authentic perspectives, the thing that rises is authentic. perspectives. And I think that's.

>> if you look at most of the successful. podcasts out there, the people that are. doing them are authentic human beings. And their their perspective is uniquely. their own. And I think when they go. sideways is when they become a part, they get bought out. they become a part. they they you know they sell a piece of. it to some corporation and they get. curated and there's a lot of weirdness. that gets involved and you know I've. managed to resist all that but it was. also because it got so big before. anybody came calling that I had already.

figured out the right way to do it is. just to do it my way and my way is to. have genuine curiosity to be a real. human being and just to talk to people. >> well and you're I mean I've just noticed. just in this conversation we've had that. um you have a gift for listening. And I. think this is something these platforms. or most of our cable news or most of our. media environment doesn't value anymore. is actual listening and learning. Right. It is now all about what you say, what.

your opinions are. >> Yeah. >> Rather than actually creating a. connection with another person. >> I've fallen victim to that, too. I had. to learn how to do it. You know, I if. you go back to my earlier podcast, they. were terrible. >> Why? because you were you were talking. >> I would talk too much or you know I'd. want to speak but I genuinely have. always wanted to know how other people. think and why they think the way they. think and and you can find holes in the. way people think and you can find. strength in the way people think and. they're very it's very inspirational.

I've had an unexpected and education. from doing this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I didn't intend when I first. started doing it. And it was just me and. my friends and we were just [ __ ]. around. And I just thought that was fun. >> Yeah. >> I was like, it'd be fun to get together. with my comedian friends. Like we only. work at night, right? Like what are we. doing during the day? Most of us during. the day are just screwing off. >> It's like what should we do? Let's get. together and just have a bunch of. laughs. And then all of a sudden it was. like, okay, this has gotten so popular. that people want to come on. Okay, let.

me see what Anthony Bourdain has to. think think about things. What does what. does he have to say about stuff? What. does Graham Hancock have to say about. things? and and people that I found. genuinely interested were willing to sit. down and talk to me. I'm like, "Well, this is cool." Now, I've got this like. weird platform so I can ask questions. and and really find out why why do. people think the way they think? Why do. they live their life the way they live? And what can I learn from that? And how. can I apply that to my life? And how can. I give them this uh ability to express.

themselves as clearly as possible? Like. where I'm not getting in the way of it. and I'm just trying to help them get it. out as clearly as possible. Whether I. agree or disagree, >> I want to know like why do they think. the way they think? Like what what is. it? And I I want to know if you're a. real thinker or if you're just a. grifter. The the what's really. fascinating to me is watching these. people that were exiled from mainstream. media because the obviously the ratings. have crashed and their credibility has.

plummeted. So then they try to pivot and. become podcasters. Yeah. >> But they're still like. >> Elon Musk said this so good so well. about uh Don Lemon. He's like he's. trying to do CNN outside of CNN. >> and you can't do that. You can't. [ __ ] people in this world of no. [ __ ] And that's the podcast world. the podcast world is there's certainly. some [ __ ]. >> but for the most part, what attracts. people is if they know that this is.

really how you think. And I know this is. resonating with a lot of people out. there that. you're forced to go to a job where you. pretend to be a certain person all day. And if you step outside of those lines, you you you're going to risk career. opportunities. is you're going to risk. advancement. You're, you know, you have. to stay within this very rigid the very. rigid confines of whatever your. occupation is. And it's not very. satisfying. It doesn't feel right. Doesn't feel like you're a human being.

And they think that's the only way. And. then they they hear people talk and they. go, "Okay, this is not the only way. There's other ways to think and there's. other ways to to live your life." Well, and the fact that you have people from. such different perspectives on I think I. just don't I don't think we have. very many platforms like that anymore. And to me, that is probably the best. thing um about working in the. legislature. I think I told you this of. being forced to get outside my bubble.

because of I live in a bubble like. everybody else does, right? My my my. information feed is curated like. everybody else's. M. >> um and I and I try to uh break out of. that whenever I can, but my job forces. me to break out with that because I have. to sit down with very far-right. Republicans, very far-left Democrats, and hammer out solutions to problems. I. mean, that's what I do all day at the. capital. Um or when things are going. well, that's what I'm doing. But, you.

know, I think about there was a a. colleague, I hope he doesn't mind me. mentioning him on here. His name is. James Frank um out of Witchaw Falls, very very conservative Republican and he. and I met when I got elected and we. bonded over the stupidest thing which. was that we both had the same first. name, right? Like that's when you meet. someone like that's sometimes you go off. of like the most superficial basis to. create a friendship. >> James is a really common one. >> I know. I know. >> That's his joke. >> But we Yeah. But I remember we started. this joke of like we're the James Caucus.

and you're vice chair blah blah blah. right um it was a stupid basis for a. friendship but it was a basis and from. there he started like come back to where. I sat on the floor and like when things. were slow he would just come kind of sit. and shoot the [ __ ] and he would say like. he would he would reveal some of the. interesting nonorthodox views that he. has about politics which then gave me an. opening to kind of express some of my. dissatisfactions with this political. system in both parties and the way it.

forces us into tribes, all that stuff. Anyway, all those conversations really. created a an actual friendship and I. consider James an actual friend. And. then what got interesting is how we took. that friendship into public policy. because I think it was two sessions ago, James had a bill that all the Democrats. hated, including me. I hated the bill, too. It was a bill to allow homeschool. kids to participate in UIL. I know you. have. >> What is UIL?

>> Yeah, I was going to say uh that is. basically um school sports in Texas. It's like the sports league and as you. know, you know, sports are very. >> Why did you Well, my concern was that. the public education system is not a. buffet table, right? where you can just. come and say I want to do the sports uh. but I don't want to participate in the. in the actual school or the the. academics the life of the school. I. didn't want it to become this fragmented. thing that everyone could just pick. apart and just do the fun stuff. That. was my first reaction. >> Mhm.

James sat down with me, which right. there, a Republican coming to a Democrat. and like actually having a private. conversation about a bill that doesn't. doesn't happen enough and it it should. cuz when he sat me down, he was able to. use all the conversations we'd had to. talk about this policy. And he said. something to me that just blew my mind. He said, "James, whenever we talk about. immigration, you always say," don't. punish kids for the decisions their. parents make.

>> There you go. >> Right. And and I and immediately I was. kind of first embarrassed and ashamed, right? That's our natural reaction when. we're when we're wrong. But I was like, James is he's absolutely right. Like. these these kids didn't decide to be. homeschooled. this may be their only. opportunity to interact with kids their. own age in a public school setting. This, you know, the opportunity to do. UIL football or or choir or theater or. debate, like this could be a door that. opens for these kids.

>> Yeah. >> So, anyway, I ended up crossing party. lines to support that bill. And I got a. bunch of blowback from from my folks. But I felt like this trust that I had. with James, someone who is on completely. polar opposite side of me moved me in a. way that I actually changed my opinion. on something. >> That's awesome. >> That I I think also if you just look at. it objectively that would be socially. beneficial to those kids. So for sure if. it's beneficial to those kids, those. kids would be better members of the.

community. >> And you know what? We passed that bill a. couple years ago and I got to talk with. some of the homeschool kids that are. participating and it has been a game. changer for them. And what's interesting. is that that has become a great. recruitment tool for the local public. schools, >> right? Because then the public school is. able to show off the UIL, how much fun. it is and then the kids sometimes. enroll. >> The point is like I was open to changing. my own mind. >> and that goes both ways. The next. session I had filed this bill. Well, sometimes I file a bill that I know is.

not going to pass in a Republican. legislature, but I file it anyway so I. can at least start a conversation, right? I passed a bill that was actually. a Bernie Sanders idea, or sorry, I filed. the bill. Uh, it was to import cheaper. prescription drugs from Canada directly. to Texas because Canadians pay half of. what we pay for the same prescription. drugs. And I didn't think it was going. to go anywhere. And all of a sudden, James calls me and it's like, I just. read your bill. I love it. Uh, I'm a big. believer in the free market and big. pharma is disrupting the free market.

So, suddenly it was me and James Frank. We got it through the House, we got it. through the Senate, and we got it signed. by the governor. And now Texas is. working on its application to the FDA to. import cheap prescription drugs from. Canada. >> That's awesome. >> So, it it goes both ways of you being. open to changing your mind. >> Yeah. >> And the other person being open and. suddenly progress is possible when. there's a relationship. >> Well, that begs the question like why. are you a Democrat? Well, my mother, so. I told you I was um born to a single. mom. Um she uh she was a preacher's.

daughter uh from Laredo down on the. border. She left home at 19. She moved. up to Austin. She met my birth father um. who was a high school dropout and um had. a a drinking problem. And that drinking. problem sometimes led to being violent. with with my mother. And there was one. night uh it was me and and mom and and. my birth father and he had had too much. drink and got violent again. And that.

that was kind of the straw that broke. the camel's back. And my mom decided. right then and there that she was. leaving. So she packed all our stuff. She put me in her little Ford escort. She drove me to the hotel where she. worked downtown. The manager let us stay. in one of the rooms uh for a few weeks. until we found a little apartment in. East Austin. And mom, you know, she took. on double duty at the hotel. She like. fought for me at every instance, even. when it was her own physical safety was.

at risk. And back then, this was um. early 90s, you know, she could look over. at the Texas capital and she saw Texas. Democrats like Anne Richards, Bob. Bullock, people who fought for the. little guy, >> for working people, people who were who. were forgotten and left behind. That was. the classic Democratic party, >> right? >> And so I remember when I was I guess I. was maybe kindergarten and I someone in. school, they were talking about. political parties and I asked my mom. what we were and she was like, "We're.

Democrats because Democrats fight for. the people." That was what she said. >> And my mom is still a Democrat today, but like I don't know how much our party. is still true to that. But I do know. that that's our historical legacy is the. party that fights for for um for the. little guy. And um I think we're at our. best when we do that today. We're at our. worst when we stray from that. >> I would agree with that. >> So I I still believe the Democratic. Party can get back to those roots. I.

hope last year was a wakeup call, especially to the National Democratic. Party about what needs to change and and. how we need to be different if we're. going to build a big coalition to take. on the issues that we care about. Um, but that's that's why I'm a Democrat and. and um why I hope the party can get back. to those roots. >> What are your aspirations politically. outside of what you're doing right now? >> So, you I told you I went to seminary. >> Um, I'm still in seminary. I have about. um about a year left of course work. I'm.

going slow since I'm doing all this. other stuff. Um my goal is to go. full-time into the ministry whenever I'm. done with seminary and I get my I get. ordained. You basically kind of like uh. passing the bar after you go to law. school. Like you go through seminary and. you've got to get ordained, which is a. whole different process. But I basically. I want to become a minister full-time. And I would love my pastor is probably. listening to this podcast whenever he's. ready to to hang it up and retire. I I. would love to take over and lead my home.

church. So, I say all that because I. don't want to do politics forever. I. like the work that I'm doing. I do think. I'm making an impact. A lot of the bills. that I've passed are actually helping. people, helping students like the ones I. taught, but uh it is a bruising. u business to be in. >> It's interesting because you're the type. of person I want to go into politics. Well, >> but I've always said that the people. that you want to do it don't want to do. it.

>> It's terrible. I mean, everything about. it is terrible. >> Exactly. Terrible people excel at it. >> There are great things about it. I. really don't want I don't I am not a. victim here. I have a great This is a No. one was given this job away. I had to. work to get this job, right? I had to. raise money. I had to knock on thousands. of doors. And I do I mean I the fact. that I I went from serving 150 students. at Roads Middle School in room 112 to. now serving 5.5 million Texas public. school students as part of the public. education committee in the Texas House.

So like that's you know I passed a bill. to allow incarcerated minors to get a. high school diploma while they're in. prison. And then I got invited out to. speak at their first graduation ceremony. in the prison. And I saw these kids who. made horrific mistakes, but I saw them. with their parents with a cap and gown, and suddenly their whole conception. about who they were changed. >> in an instant because of the bill that I. passed. >> That's amazing. >> There's all kinds of terrible stuff in. this. The corruption, the partisanship,

the polarization, the tribalism. It's. all terrible. >> Yeah. >> But then like you give a kid an. opportunity to earn a diploma. >> and you're just like, I can hang it up, right? Like I can pathway where that. stuff can be at least minimized the. negative aspects of politics. >> Yes. >> What is that pathway? >> Um one I think this is a model right. here like having a place that we can all. come together and listen to each other. I told you about your talent for. listening. I learned this in my seminary.

training because what pastors do is. listen a lot and how hard it is to. actually listen to someone. Right? It's. easy to stop talking. >> and then start talking when the person. is done, right? Like exchanging. monologues, that's easy, >> right? >> But actually being open to hearing. someone is a whole different ball game. >> You have to genuinely care. >> Yes. You have to recognize something in. someone else, a part of yourself, right? That image. Again, I would describe it. as the image of God, but I don't want to. make people feel weird about religion, but that's. >> But that's something that's that is what.

it is. Well, because I think the most. revolutionary teaching in my religion is. the teaching to love your enemy. >> I mean, it's it's crazy from two. perspective. One, it's Jesus is. acknowledging that we're going to have. enemies. Because you could see a world. where he's just like, don't don't have. enemies, right? But if you're going to. do difficult work, if you're going to. speak your mind, if you're going to. stand up to entrenched power, you're. going to get some opponents, right? >> Yeah. >> But then the revolutionary part is that. you are called to love your opponents. and your enemies just as you love.

yourself. Yeah, >> it's easy to say in church, >> right? >> Imagine, I mean, I I try and fail every. day to do that in the legislature, to. see my opponents as children of God, to. see Donald Trump as a child of God. I'm. probably going to get a a primary. challenge right there for saying that. But you. >> But he is. >> He is. >> Yeah. >> And that's a hard thing for progressives. and Democrats to to get their head. around. But it's like until you Dorothy. Day, who is this great uh Catholic.

activist uh for the poor uh and labor. organizer, she had this great quote. where she said, "You really only love. God as much as you love the person you. love the least.". >> Wow. >> You only truly love God as much as you. love the person you love the least. In. other words, the test of Christianity is. not do you love Jesus because Jesus is. pretty lovable. The test is do you love Judas?

>> I mean and that is a now that is that is. radical. >> Yeah. >> And I think that is the key to saving. this whole American experiment, >> right? >> Is how do you love your enemies? >> And how do you get that idea out there. in the zeitgeist? That's part of the key. where you reject the idea of being this. person that attacks their enemies and. which is also conquers their enemies. This this is a big aspect of social. media is constant attacking people that. disagree with you. I reject that. I I I.

haven't engaged in that in forever. I. used to argue with people online. Then I. realized I never feel good. I never. change their opinion. It doesn't do any. good. And then you even if I would like. win, you know, air quotes win some. online. I never felt good. No, >> I felt terrible, >> you know. >> So I actually had an this happened to me. in my first campaign. We were on Facebook was the main. platform at that time and there was a. guy um who had written kind of a snarky. comment about how I was a Democrat who.

wanted to take away everybody's guns. >> And I I again I wanted to respond in. anger, right? Because that's always your. first. >> sure first first instinct. >> But I tried to check that anger, tried. to remember my teachings and I responded. and I asked him to get coffee. The good. thing this is a guy just a guy in my. comments, right? Um. >> that's wild. And so we actually met up. for coffee. Turned out to be a lovely. guy. He brought he actually brought his. wife and his kids. Adorable kids. He. talked about how he was he was a gun.

enthusiast. Um and he was also a a. certified NRA safety officer. And so the. more we talked, we actually got down to. how we both really value safety in this. conversation and how he was talking. about how gun owners in many ways are. the biggest advocates for safety. Um and. then we found some some consensus on. background checks, stuff like that. But. it turned from this dunking in comments. on social media to when we were face to. face, human to human, >> right? >> Suddenly we we were we heard each other,

right? We listened to each other and he. realized I was not trying to take. people's guns. I have no interest in. that. He recognized that I was just. trying to find a way to safety, which is. his value, too, >> right? >> Suddenly, that's a conversation. I'm not. saying I don't want to be I'm trying I'm. not naive. This stuff often doesn't end. well, right? You don't often get to an. agreement. But I have seen over and over. again that when you extend an open hand. instead of a closed fist, it's a game. changer. >> Yes, >> people mirror that behavior. >> and person to person which is the only. way human beings are really supposed to.

talk. And that's the one of the. beautiful things. That's also one of the. reasons why it's been so easy for me to. disengage with social media because I. engage with social conversation like. real. >> real social. >> Yeah. So it's like, you know, social. media to me is not attractive. I get. plenty of interaction with human beings, even human beings with completely. different perspectives than I do. I'm. I'm very fortunate. I know that's not. available to a lot of people. I I I get. it. But. >> I think people get something out of.

these conversations because of that. >> And they're hungry for it. >> Yes. >> People are hungry for connection. And. social media is almost like empty. calories, >> right? It feels like you're eating like. you're getting connection. >> but actually just ends you more hungry. You're you're hungry at the end of the. day. >> Yeah. There's a a guy who I've had on. the podcast. Is it uh Allan Levvenovitz? Is that his name? >> Yes. Um he he describes it as uh the. same way consuming processed foods is. bad for you. Processed information is.

bad for you. >> Oh, it's so good. >> It's feels like feels like information. >> feels like interaction, but it's not. It's overly processed and it's gross. Well, and this is the, you know, this. certainly exists on both sides of the. aisle, but I think in recent years, this, you know, cancel culture on my. side of the aisle has just become kind. of the default spirituality. >> on the left. >> Yes. >> And it is so toxic because nothing is. more antithetical in my faith than.

cancelelling another human being. >> Right. >> Right. If we are all endowed with this. sacred image, if we are all holy, then we are all of infinite worth. and. we're all entitled to unconditional. love. Like that is as a progressive, as. a Democrat, like that is central to how. I understand the world. That's why I. fight for universal healthcare and. against big money. It's because I. believe each person is sacred. So then. in a conversation where someone happens. to not agree with you on a policy, even. an important policy, the fact that you.

would write them off, >> right, >> as irredeemable, as trash. >> Yeah. I just can't imagine anything. more diametrically opposed to my values, my faith, but also to I would think the. values of the Democratic Party. I mean, the way you win in a democracy is you. persuade people, you win the argument. >> Yes. >> But to say, you know, you are you are. now a bad person. >> You're a villain. I mean, it's making. everyone two-dimensional. >> It's also a byproduct of social media. Yes. Because there's this frustration.

that you're not face to face with that. person. What? I don't like the way. they're talking. I don't like their. perspective. Let's get rid of them. forever. >> Yep. >> Cast them out of the kingdom. Yep. >> And you know, um Mark Andre had this uh. very interesting way of uh describing. what's going on with people that it's. akin to cultlike rituals is that, you. know, you demand complete total. compliance. When that person does not. comply, you you cast them out of you you. you get them out of the social group.

you eliminate them, which is what cults. do, you know, when when someone doesn't. agree. Yeah. They're kicked out and then. you. >> you no longer engage with that person. and you treat that person like a pariah. And that also reinforces this idea that. everybody has to be compliant otherwise. you will face the same fate as those. people do. >> That in the absence of any sort of. religion, people form their own. religion. >> Politics becomes a religion. >> 100%. and ideologies become religions.

They they find we have for whatever. reason we have a a default setting in. our mind in in in the way we inter. interact with reality that is very. religious whether we like it or not. >> I mean that is that is inherent in our. species. I mean we are a moral believing. species. I mean that's that's what. separates us from all the other animals. is that we. >> we can think abstractly. Think about the. future and the past. >> Yes. tell stories and then ask questions.

about what this all means. Why are we. all here on this floating rock out in. the middle of a vast infinite universe? Like, >> and the least connected, most lost. people I know are atheists. And that is. really weird to me. That's really weird. These people that reject religion, for. whatever reason, they seem less. connected and less engaged. with with reality. It's very strange. It's it's very strange and also more.

rigid in their perspectives, more rigid. in their ideology. Their their ide their. ideology becomes their god. >> It become Yeah. >> Well, and and I you know, oftenimes I. feel like atheists or agnostics. have very valid criticisms of organized. religion. >> For sure. >> You know, sometimes they see the church. more clearly than I can on the inside of. how it's not living up to its values. I. think the thing you're hitting on is.

that there is a baby in that bathwater. >> Yes. >> Right. If we just throw out the whole. thing. >> Yeah. >> I mean, now we're conducting an. experiment on humanity in real time of. what happens when you take this. believing species and rob it of any. community to make sense of the world. I. mean now that's why you're I honestly. believe that's why we see higher rates. of anxiety and depression um especially. among young people is because they're. growing up in an incoherent universe. >> Yes, absolutely. And accentuated by.

social media for sure this overprocessed. information. I I think there's a pers. there there's a perspective that people. have that their way is the way that they. have to defend and that other ways are. the wrong way. And I think there's a. spectrum when it comes to everything. And religion like like I say like like. if you're looking at someone who's a. right-wing person, who's a conservative. person, conservative Christian, who's a. Republican, they look at the left like.

Antifa. They see Antifa. They see the. summer of love in Seattle. The, you. know, that they see that as like the. worst aspects. And I think someone who's. agnostic or atheist, they look at like. the Joel Olsteins. They look at these. megaurch pastors. They look at these. hypocrites that drive Rolls-Royces and. fly in private jets and make millions. and millions of dollars off of their. followers as the worst aspects of. Christianity. You know, because that is. the worst aspects of Christianity in a.

lot of ways. It's the the bastardization. of the teachings, the the taking. >> Yes. the taking advantage of people that. want to believe and using it for their. own personal gain. And so they they. think of those people as hypocrites and. these think of all these people as like. the worst aspects of society because. they're looking at the worst aspects of. this one group that's comprised of a. billion people which is kind of crazy. but that's what we do. We. >> and it's not just religion. Yeah. I mean.

a big criticism I have of my own side is. that you know I mentioned earlier this. this pattern of order disorder reorder. as the pattern of the universe that. these religions are talking about and we. all you know were born into certain. stories whether it's religion patriotism. masculinity these are stories that we're. born into and we grow up and we start to. question these stories which is natural. I feel like my side is stuck on that. second step. We haven't made it to that.

third step, that reordering, that. resurrection, reincarnation, where we're. taking these things and we are. understanding them a new because. religion can be toxic, but it is not. inherently toxic. >> Right? >> Uh patriotism can be toxic, but it is. not inherently toxic. Masculinity can be. toxic, but it is not inherently toxic. Like understanding that these are things. that we can reclaim and be proud of. I. think is something that hasn't quite.

seeped in on my side. So we end up just. rejecting all of it. You know, all. religion is bad, patriotism is bad and. naive, right? Is and I just don't think. those things are true. >> Yeah. >> Um so I do think our challenge on my. side of the aisle is how do you get to. that third step of feeling disillusioned. but then using that to to rise and and. create something new and reclaim, you. know, yes, politics is corrupt, but it. doesn't have to be, >> right? We can every every system we have. is a choice. They're human systems. We.

made them, >> right? >> Right. I mean, we can make it better if. we make that decision to do so. You. know, I do feel like right now cynicism. is like the hottest thing. Um it's very. cool to be, you know, too cool for. school. But I do think um earnestness. and hope and optimism are going to make. a comeback. >> Well, that's why people like you I'd. like to see more of in politics. And. you're you not you're trying to get out. >> I'm not leaving right away. I just I. just I I do think there are other ways.

to make an impact outside of politics. You've shown that. >> Yeah. >> I I can I can do that in the ministry. Like I do think we're missing that moral. clarity in our political conversation. that really can only come from faith. leaders. And. >> I think the cynical perspective is that. at the highest levels, it's all being. controlled by money. And that's not. going to change. You know, like the the. people that were very hopeful for for. change when Trump got into office. One. of the things that everyone was promised. was you're gonna find out the Epstein. client list and you're going to find out.

who killed JFK and what the UFOs are all. about. You haven't heard a [ __ ] peep. out of any of that [ __ ]. >> No one knows nothing. And today they. just finally said there's no client. list. There's no videos. I mean, I had. Cash Patel. these people that you know. Cash came on the podcast and said. there's no there's nothing that you want. to see. You know these guy. >> nothing you need to see. >> Dan Bonino who's always like shouting. from the rooftops we're going to get to. the bottom of this and find out who. these people are. >> Everyone's saying no no Epstein killed. himself. No, nothing to see here. And. it's like okay well that's why people.

are cynical. People are cynical because. you you you know you had all this hope. for change and then you realize like oh. the same people that are pulling the. strings are still pulling the strings. Well, and it doesn't, you know, it. doesn't help when there are videos of. the president, you know, hanging around. with. >> and everybody else, including Nobel. Prizewinning scientists. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just limited. >> Yeah. I mean, it's that that whatever. that compromise organization was, whatever that thing was that they were.

running, whatever this game was that I'm. sure they're running another version of. it right now where they provide. experiences to people that that have a. very difficult time, you know, being. getting out there and and having their. fun, you know, and then they compromise. them. I mean, I think this is a it's a. timehonored tactic of control. It's been. around forever. And obviously, it works. Look, if you if you have so much.

interest in getting to the bottom of. this, like universally on both sides of. the aisle, and yet nothing gets done, that that tends to give people this. this this fear that cynicism is the. correct perspective. >> And and I want to I want to validate. that that there there is reason and good. reasons to be disillusioned. Mhm. >> I guess I'm all I'm pushing back on is. that second step of it's always going to. be this way,

>> right? It doesn't have to be this way. >> That is the key step. >> So I'm not you need to run for. president. >> Yeah. >> We need someone who's actually a good. person to you know because the Democrats. have very few candidates that are. >> Can I can I actually push back on that. please? Because we were talking about. how religion how politics has become a. religion. >> This is one of the ways it does is. people put all their faith in a. politician. No, because I saw I've seen. it with Bernie on my I mean people and I. like Bernie a whole lot, but some people. treat him as if he's a messianic figure.

>> Well, because Trump on the right, people. treat him as as a messiah in some ways. Like this is a problem. >> One of the only ones that's been. remarkably consistent in his entire. career. And so that. >> but he's still a flawed human being, right? I mean, just like we all are. >> Rare. That's it's so rare that should be. praised. >> But instead of like the the change is. going to come from your listeners. >> Yes. not from me, right? I can be a part. of that, but I mean I if if there's any. hope I can give people, it's that the. people in power, including the.

billionaire mega donors who basically. run this whole thing, and I can get more. into that if you want. >> Please do. >> But they are very afraid of the power. that the people have. That I know for. sure. >> How so? because they spend so much time. uh let me just so let's talk about the. two billionaires that I think basically. control state government here in Texas. and you I don't know if you or even your. listeners necessarily know about them is. two billionaires from West Texas their. names are Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilks Dunn.

and Wilks um they made their money in. oil and gas. >> country music band. >> I was just going to say some people get. them confused with Brooks and Dunn um. Wils and Dunn is the bad one Brooks and. Dunn good one Um, but they made their. money in oil and gas, but they are um. also Christian nationalist pastors. >> Oh. >> Which, you know, billionaire pastor, you. know, you would think that's an. oxymoron, but um on Sunday mornings, these two billionaires, they preach at. these far-right churches and they've got.

very extreme views. Um they don't think. anybody who's not a Christian should. should serve in elected office. >> Whoa. >> In fact, you can look this up. Don't. don't take my word for it. do your own. research, but they they said they told. the former Republican speaker of the. Texas House, a guy named Joe Strauss. from San Antonio, that he didn't have a. right to be speaker because he's Jewish. And that's a Republican. So, so they they are Dominionists. They're Christian nationals. This is the. world that they have. But they basically.

every single Republican state senator in. Texas has taken their money. Every. single one. A majority of the. Republicans in the in the state house. have taken their money. And for some of. those lawmakers, a majority of their. total campaign contributions come from. just these two guys. Like they they. increasingly. run this whole this whole government. here in Texas. >> And you ask where the um ten. commandments bill comes from. You ask. where that school counselor chaplain. bill comes from, the voucher bill, the.

abortion ban. A lot of this is driven by. these two billionaires. >> That's wild. and they they give to. politicians, but it's actually much. bigger than that because they have this. sprawling network of think tanks, advocacy organizations, media outlets, um the Daily Wire, right, funded by. them. So like they are they are creating. a an empire to. to control.

every aspect of the state. I mean, I. don't mean to sound alarmist, but that. is that's what's happening. You can, and. again, your listeners should do their. own uh research on this to learn about. it, but there's been a lot of stories. about these two billionaires and their. control over state government. And I say. this because. >> but a big part of the Daily Wire is Ben. Shapiro. And Ben Shapiro is very Jewish. >> Well, and and these two billionaires. hosted a um a a meeting with Nick. Fuentes um who is a Holocaust denier and. got a lot of push back.

>> Denier. >> Nick Fuentes. >> He's a denier. or does he debate the. numbers? >> Well, to be fair, I don't listen to a. lot of Nick Fentes, which is on me. But, >> um, >> who funds it? Duo Serves. Yep. >> Dan and Ferris Wilks. Daily Wire was. launched 2015. Billionaire Petroleum. Industry Brothers. And again, I think. the important part about these two guys. that's maybe more important than the oil. and gas stuff is that they they have. this extreme religious worldview and. they have the money to be able to.

actually implement that worldview on 30. million people in the state of Texas. And now they're trying to go national um. by trying to win a US Senate seat. So, I. mean, if your listeners haven't heard of. Tim Dunn and Ferris Wils, they need to. one because not only do they make policy. increasingly for 30 million Texans, but. now they're trying to go national and a. lot of their views and a lot of their. politics are going to become. nationalized. >> Yeah, I interrupted you when you talking. about Nick Fentes. >> My point was that Dunan Wilks from and I.

probably become the most outspoken. critic of of these guys um because I do. think people need to know their names, right? you you open up your social media. feed, you listen to the news, and you. hear about Greg Abbott and Dan Patrick. or even James Terico, but you don't. actually hear about the two guys who run. the whole thing. So, but my my point is. that they spend so much of their energy. and their money and their time trying to. create wedges between people. So, let's. just take schools for for instance. the.

the centerpiece of their agenda was this. school voucher bill, which you probably. heard about, which is basically taking. money that could that would go to. neighborhood public schools and sending. that money to religious private schools. >> Those who are around Dun and Wilk say. that their ultimate vision is to replace. public schooling with religious. schooling for everyone. That's that's. what they're trying to get to. Yes. >> Um. >> Wow. >> And so but but they know that Texans. love their public schools, right? Like I.

mean public education's enshrined in our. state's constitution. Friday Night. Lights in a lot of these small towns the. school is not just an academic. institution. It is the the community hub. that brings people together. So if Dun. Wils want to get rid of public. education, which I think they do, and I. think the journalism bears this out, they've got to drive a wedge between. people in their public school community. And so they deliberately fund a lot of. the book stuff, um, a lot of the the.

cultural stuff, the craziness at school. boards. A lot of that is kind of funded. and organized through the Dun and Wils. Empire. Of course, you know, people. should go to the school board if they. have an authentic problem with the. school district, which that happens a. lot. But when you actually look into. where when you follow the money about. who's getting the people to show up, who. is who is distributing the information, who is riing people up about some of. this stuff and undermining trust in. public education, it's often done in.

Wilks and it isn't in pursuit of this. policy goal, which is to defund and. close neighborhood schools. And we've. already seen schools close all over the. state of Texas because they're being. systematically underfunded. So, I just I. use this as an example. Not there are. valid critiques of public schools, don't. we get me wrong, and I've made those. critiques myself, but when you look at. where the money is coming from and the. fact that it is intentionally drawing a. wedge or putting a wedge between people. and undermining trust and education so.

that they can privatize it and profit. off of it, I think that whole story. needs to be recognized so people can. understand how the left versus right. stuff is actually not as important as. the top versus bottom stuff. >> Yeah. that these billionaires are going. to we're not going to have public. schools that a lot of I would I there's. no way I'd be on Joe Rogan right now if. I hadn't had Texas public schools cuz my. mom didn't go to college the only way I. got to college is because of public. schools free highquality public schools. period and I think there's a lot of. people who would say the same thing and.

these two guys are trying. >> terrified of. >> yes because what they're worried about. is and I'll take the voucher fight in. particular we almost beat this voucher. bill because it was a coalition of. Democrats in urban and suburban areas. and then rural small town Republicans. coming together because we all benefit. from public schools, right? We we set. aside our our party differences, even. some of our ideological differences, and. we said we all need wellunded public.

schools that can actually give our kids. the opportunities they deserve. That. coalition was not only a threat to Greg. Abbott or Dan Patrick. It was a threat. to Dunan Wilks because if we recognize. that we have far more in common than the. stuff that divides us, then that's a. threat to their power. It's a threat to. their wealth. >> That unity that loving loving your enemy. is not just morally good. It's not just. idealistic. It is good strategic advice.

because when we're united, when we're. together, then we make it a lot harder. for those two guys to come in and. dismantle these these ladders of. opportunity that we have. And you know, and we have fewer and fewer ladders of. opportunity. Public schools are one of. them. So I just I think this is a prime. example of what I mean when I say a lot. of the divisions, a lot of the platforms. that are dividing us that are run by. billionaires, all of that is intentional. so that we are fighting each other. instead of asking hard questions about.

the wealthy special interests and what. their agenda is. That that is just the. phenomenon that I have seen in my four. terms. Um and I don't know if everyone. is fully awake to that that we're. getting we're getting played. I don't. think people are and I think you saying. it is very important. It it I think most. people are unaware of it. >> Well, and how would they know? >> How would. >> Right. I mean, they're not and this is a. problem with media. Like the mainstream. media for some reason will not name. these two guys, right? It's probably I.

think it's like this gentleman's. agreement or like you have to talk about. the elected officials. I'm like it. doesn't matter who the elected officials. are if these billionaires buy whoever. whoever's elected, right? I mean, this. to me is the the real story. And I I. honestly don't There are some outlets. that are covering it, but just most of. them don't. I'll even bring them up in. an interview, like on local news. It'll. get taken out of the interview. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because they don't want the. lawsuits. I get it. You know, they don't. want the attention. I even put a video on TikTok explaining.

Dunan Wilks and it was like it it the. Tik Tok was getting a lot of engagement, but then it stopped all of a sudden. And. I think it was cuz the the algorithm or. the um I don't know how it works, but. the platform itself had decided to to. stop the video from spreading. >> Wow. >> So, I mean that that is I just do think. people have to your listeners who maybe. some of them are sick of politics. They. think it's all corrupt. That is all. true. I validate that. But until you. educate yourself, until you do dig a.

little deeper, until you recognize the. way this system is operating, you're not. going to have the tools and the. knowledge you need to upend that system, which I it it can absolutely be upended. We almost beat their voucher bill um. because we had that coalition of across. the aisle and scattering the the tribal. dynamics of our politics. So ultimately, we didn't win. kind of came down to a. photo finish. But it did to me provide a. template for what happens if we actually. loved our enemies if we rebuilt these.

relationships. Like who could we take on. if we did it together? Democrats and. Republicans, conservatives and and. progressives. Like I don't know. Sometimes I sound a little polyiana. >> No. No. No. I think you're on to. something. I think I think what you're. saying is absolutely true though that. it's not us versus them. It's the top. versus the bottom. >> They have all the power. Yeah. >> And it's it's. >> it seems like they enjoy wielding it. >> for their own benefit. >> And what's their own what's their. ultimate goal?

>> You know, I I think if if I'm if I'm. taking the the journalism that's been. done on done in Wilks, I think their. ultimate goal is a theocracy. Um, and again, this this is very. personal given how important my faith is. to me, but I'm a Christian and I think. there is no more dangerous form of. government than theocracy. >> because the only thing worse than a. tyrant is a tyrant who thinks they're on. a mission from God. >> And we haven't had any good examples of. that in the past. No, there's not one. that you go, "Well, that one worked out, >> right?" And so I again, this is people.

trying to use my religion to control. people. >> Yeah. >> That's that's the name of the game. And. we're seeing that here. I mean, Texas is. I'm an eighth generation Texan. My. family's been here since it was Mexico. I love this state. But I've just seen. people like Dunham Wilks just take us in. this far right culture war direction at. the expense of actual problems we need. to solve. One of the bills that didn't. pass last legis last legislative session. was a bill that would have provided. funding for flood mitigation and.

emergency um emergency systems to get. the word out when there's a flood. And. we literally just saw the the. consequence of not passing that bill. >> over the weekend. >> Why would they not want that passed? That seems like. >> you want to. Okay, we're we're talk. we're honestly here. Okay, that bill was. passed by Representative Ken King, a. Republican, someone I often have. disagreements with, but he's a good man. He's from far north panhandle where they. saw historic wildfires um last year. So.

he put this bill that would have. addressed wild flowers, wildfires, also. flooding and and would have, I think, saved some of the lives in the Hill. Country over the weekend during those. catastrophic floods. That bill passed. the state house, the lower chamber that. I'm in, on a bipartisan basis. Overwhelmingly, Democrats and. Republicans said, "This is good policy. Let's pass it.". Dan Patrick, the lieutenant governor who. controls the state senate, which is the. upper chamber. He held that bill hostage. so that he could get his THC ban.

through. And again, I know this may be confusing. people outside of Texas. We legalized. hemp a few years ago. It's a it's a. booming industry. It's a product that's. providing people a lot of relief. Dan. Patrick decided to put this bill forward. that would ban all THC products in the. state of Texas. basically close. hundreds of businesses across the state, lay off thousands of people. >> Why do you think you do that? Why is. >> Let's go back. Follow the money. >> Okay. >> What industry do you think was most. invested in taking this new product off.

the market? >> Pharmaceutical drugs. >> No. >> alcohol. >> Big alcohol. >> Big beer. And I guess I I love beer. I'm. This is not a critique of them. My point. is they use their influence to take a. competitor out of the market. By the. way, a competitor that is research. suggests is safer and less addictive. than alcohol. Um, again, I'm not. disparaging alcohol, but it has a lot of. negative side effects and a lot of. negative and is very addictive. And I.

have members of my family who struggle. with addiction and struggle with. alcoholism. THC can be under the right. circumstances an alternative. I mean, there are seniors who use it for chronic. pain. There are veterans who use it for. PTSD. They're just Texans with anxiety. who use it to chill out at the end of a. long stressful day. And so the fact that. the lieutenant governor one would do the. bidding of one industry over the other, two would hold up literally a. life-saving bill that could have.

possibly saved lives over the weekend in. those in those floods just to cater to. to wealthy special interests to me is. just a encapsulation of everything. that's wrong with politics, right? I. mean, >> yeah, I would agree with that. >> So, that's the kind of when I told you. my second term, I started to feel. discouraged. That's the stuff because. you just walk I mean, I'm still. politicians are still people like I walk. out of that chamber just feeling totally. and utterly defeated, right? Like I feel.

like I'm pushing against the ocean. sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Um and people are going to suffer with. this THC ban if it goes into place. needlessly. >> Needlessly. It's foolish. >> It's really foolish. And it's not in the. direction the country is going. The. country is going towards legalization, which it should. And then also taxing. >> Yeah. >> It would be a tremendous tax benefit to. everybody. Tremendous revenue benefit to. the state. >> and regulation. I I'm open. I actually. voted for a regulation bill, right? We.

shouldn't have smoke shops right next to. schools, right? >> The packaging shouldn't look like kids. candy. I'm I'm all for that. >> Pesticides, herbicides, toxic chemicals. being used on them. And yeah, >> but but to do a total draconian ban, again, that's the thing with abortion. >> for the alcohol industry. That's. fascinating. >> Again, all all I do is follow the money. I I don't again, I don't want to cast. dispersions. It's not like the. lieutenant governor said, I'm just doing. this for the alcohol industry. Of. course, >> I'm just I'm reading the tea leaves. >> And especially when a policy doesn't.

make sense, >> right? >> That's when I ask questions. Right. >> Right. When you're just like, you know, because they'll be like, well, you know, too many kids are getting these. products. Okay, let's pass a reform bill where we. keep it out of the hands of kids. What? >> By the way, my kids have been getting. weed since the beginning of time. >> I mean, that's also true. >> Stupid. >> Well, I mean, this is the whole thing. about. >> killing them. >> This is all This is the whole thing. >> I I I want to say this. I never thought. when I got elected to the state. legislature, I would talk so much about. sex. I literally There are so many weird. bills about pornography. There was a.

bill about dildos, which I can't believe. I even said that on this podcast. But. >> what's the bill about dildos? I think. it's a I think it's a bill regulating. where dildos can be in like a store. Um. anyway, like I just I didn't I have not. I've heard a lot of things from my. constituents, healthcare, uh crime, uh. you know, uh education. I I've literally. never had a constituent reach out about. dildos, but my colleagues feel the need. to need to pass bills about this stuff. So I end up being in a weird position.

where I'm having to talk about some of. these issues like this issue of. pornography which has been used to do. book banning and I'm it's an interesting. discussion that we should get into but. the idea that teenagers are going to the. school library for their pornography. again just kind of. >> you know it's common sense that I feel. like sometimes we're just completely. lacking in um in places like the. capital. Well, listen, James, I really. appreciate you coming on here because.

you're providing a perspective that I. think is very difficult to acquire. I. don't I don't think most people have any. idea how the system actually works. And. uh the fact that you're willing to do. this and to speak so frankly and so so. well about this and really explain it to. us in a way that's digestible. >> I really appreciate it. >> I appreciate it. you. This is a a. special platform you've created here and. it really is an opportunity, I think, to. love our enemies again. So, I just. couldn't be prouder to to be invited on.

>> My pleasure. So, uh let's do it again. sometime. I'd love to. >> Don't quit. Okay. Stay in there. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. All. right. Bye, everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].