Joe Rogan Experience #2346 - Jim Lampley

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by. night. All day. Wow. Really? That was your closest male. friend? Unexpected. Unexpected. But over a. period of time, we just got closer and. closer and closer and, you know, very brotherly. And. the last public appearance Emanuel ever. made.

was my wedding in. September of 2012. And that night, the wedding was at our. house in Delmare, California. And that. night he uh his girlfriend came to me. and said, "We have to leave early. Emanuel's having stomach pains." He was. in oncology by the next week. He was gone by three weeks later. Oh. So. very touching to me and you know deeply. symbolic of my love for him and thus the.

Kron Cat. Yeah, what a classic gym and he was one. of the first guys to realize like if you. crank the heat up it actually gives guys. better conditioning. He realized a lot. of things. He Emanuel was a genius uh in. a lot of ways and there were a lot of. um sort of timehonored. rules and techniques in boxing that he. quietly upended. Yes. Gaze was more advanced in his point of.

view and thought process. and then everybody else sort of followed. his lead. once they understood what he was doing. Once you if you saw the McCroy's and. Tommy and those guys, why wouldn't you. imitate? Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, he was. and he did it at both the amateur and. pro level too, you know. So, and he was always fantastic, too, as a. commentator because he would give. insight that you're really not going to. get from someone that's not like with. these fighters day in day out through an. entire camp. He really understand. When. you consider the privilege I had and the.

expert commentators I work with, starting with Ry. Yes, that's one perspective. Then gravitating. through George Foreman. and Roy Jones. Emanuel's in there and to me he was the. best. I agree with you. The public. responded more to Roy and Ray, of course, you know, famous guys, because of their stardom, etc. But, and they were really good, too.

And they were good, but Emanuel taught. me more, you know, because he was. totally well-rounded. Yeah. As a human being as well as as a um. boxing trainer. I was very pleased to hear you back on. the microphone for that Times Square. event. Thank you. Cuz it had been so long, six plus years. God, I was like, that's. crazy. It didn't make any sense. You. were the best in the business. HBO was. the best in the business. And when they. stepped away from boxing, I was really.

heartbroken. If if you look at what happened, we go. from situation where. um the television networks have the. authority and the uh self-belief to. choose the commentators the way they. want to. Yeah. Then you get into a more subdivided and. um widely disperate marketplace and now. the star promoters have a great deal.

more influence than you would have. thought before. And now the star. promoters start getting involved in um. influencing who's on the air. So PBC. um Mayweather was never a fan. We got along but he you know he. was a famous thing with Larry. Well and I guess he associated me with. Larry which makes all the sense in the. world. kind of but you weren't nearly as. critical.

I was just the blowby-blow guy. I'm not. an expert commentator you know so I. tried. very hard. Not always easy, but I tried. very hard never to go over the line into. doing what the experts were supposed to. do, right? No, you were excellent at that. It just it didn't make any sense to me. that, you know, and and Kellerman, he's. also excellent. That's another guy we. should. And now he's back. Yes. It's nice. And Andre Ward is. another excellent guy. Totally. It just uh the the good thing about.

boxing was that HBO was completely. independent from these promoters. And. the bad thing about boxing is that the. fighters don't get paid as much on the. undergard fights and don't get paid as. much coming up as is the case in the. more broadly organized UFC universe. Right. Yeah, there is a difference. Yeah, there's a giant difference in the. undercard pay. But. I learned that from Joe Rogan. Yeah. Well, the UFC treats the entire uh. card as an enormous event. So, they have.

elite fighters fight in the entire card. It's not topheavy. Like one of the. problems with boxing is you would just. say when's the main event? When is. Canelo fighting? And you didn't the the. other stuff is just nonsense. Whereas. the UFC, you look at like, oh, look. who's fighting first fight of. pay-per-view. There's five fights on. pay-per-view. First fight of. pay-per-view is a banger. And. everybody's the seats are packed and. everybody's excited to see it. Whereas. everybody starts shuffling in about 20. minutes before Canelo fights in one of. these big boxing events. that I think is.

kind of unfortunate. You know, I I I totally agree. and a little bit shortsided. and I I exceeded to your point of view. because and I've made this point before. I'm not a UFC expert. Any comment I make. about UFC is um atmospheric, but it's. not expertly informed. I didn't have the. bandwidth for that. I was trying to be. knowledgeable out about every single. tributary and every single meaningless.

pocket in the boxing world. And that's a. lot. That's a lot. That's a lot to find. You know, it took time and and frankly, you know, I decided it would be. distracting to me to try to keep up with. two combat sports at once. This is the. one where I make my living. This is the. one where the audience identifies me. This is the one that's on HBO. Yes. And I and I know that. Dana in particular. um is said by some to have been quite.

upset that he had a deal with HBO and. the deal with HBO went away. If that's. the case, and I don't know, I'm very. sorry to hear it. Um because I think it. would have been good for both if UFC had. been on HBO. I think so as well. I mean HBO at that. time was the premier network for combat. sports. The work the work that you guys. had done in boxing was the top of the. food chain. It was the best. Well, Larry Merchant, Ray Leonard, George Foreman, Roy Jones,

everything was on point. It was just so. well honed, good production. Yes. It was just a a well polished. machine. One of the issues is they. wanted to replace the commentators. HBO. did. Oh, they did? Yeah. So, if we came over there, I. wouldn't go over there as well. So, Oh, really? Yeah. Because HBO was always. about their own producer autonomy. Yes. So they wanted to have. We don't want anybody telling us what to. do. Exactly. Right. The problem with that is in mixed. martial arts, there's a very small pool. of people who have a deep understanding.

of the entire history of the sport. Yep. And you can't just hire a regular sports. guy to take that part. They they're not. going to be able to get it. Well, going back to the developmental. stages, um, and I try very hard not to. use the word unique. It's massively. overused in American society. Sports. media have beaten it to death. It means. only one like this on the whole planet. But you were unique uh in those days. because you had the full knowledge of.

UFC and you also knew some stuff about. boxing. So I I think you were not just. unusual but unique. Well, all I was. doing was just following my interests. and I've always been a huge boxing fan. From the time I was a child, I was. Do you remember what your first fight. was? The first fight I watched, my parents. watched it, which was crazy cuz my. parents were hippies and they were. really interested in Ali's rematch with.

Leon Sp. because Leon. New Orleans. Yeah. when Leon had beat Muhammad Ali. because Muhammad Ali was he was a. cultural icon as much as he was a sports. figure. Oh yeah. I mean like multiply that by 100, you. know, to to get to where he was. He was very very unique and his his. opposition to the Vietnam War made him a. hero to many Americans. Well, I always. say. um. he was my childhood hero and he was my.

childhood hero as Cashes Clay. The very. first live prize fight I ever attended. was Cash's Clay versus Sunny Liston. February 25, 1964 in Miami Beach. Oh, you were there for the first fight? I saved lawnmowing and car washing money. for months. to buy a ticket that in my memory was. $100, but I don't really know for sure. what the cost of that ticket was. I. didn't save it. It would be worth. millions now. Um, and my mother took me.

my mother took me over from our crappy. Southwest Miami tracked house rental uh. and dropped me off at the Miami Beach. Convention Center and then came and. picked me up afterward. And I I went in. alone. Uh, and that was the first live. How old were you? I was 14. 14. It was the first live prize fight I had. ever attended. It was all about my hero. worship for Cash's Clay. Yeah. Two days later, he stands on Bickl. Avenue in Miami and tells two reporters.

that he's a follower of the Nation of. Islam and now his name is Muhammad Ali. And I'm in shock. Okay. What do you. mean? I Your cash is clay. You can't. And so I nowadays I say. the lesson he taught me then was a man's. identity is his own. Yes. And it does not matter how much I love. him or cherish him or feel connected to. him. He has the right to say who he is. I mean back in those days Islam what is.

that right? You I had no clue. But you. know he he got over with me on that when. I understood it was his right. Then he. taught me my stance on the Vietnam War. My mother was. double widow of two United States. military heroes. I grew up with a. basement filled to the gills with. memorabilia from their tours of duty as. B20 B7, B24 and and B29 pilots in World.

War II. So there was nationalistic and. patriotic material all over my. household. Wow. And when Ali said what he said about. Vietnam, I mean about Vietnam, that moved the meter for me in that. regard and I understood. And eventually. eventually my mother said, "You'll go to. Canada before I'll ever allow you to.

accrafted. into the army and going to Vietnam.". Because her thought was that it was a. pointless war. Yeah. And she was correct. Yeah. She was right. Yeah. And they took three years of his. prime. That's what's crazy. I always. point to the Cleveland Big Cat Williams. fight. That was his best. Yes. You're totally right. That was his. number one performance. And he was never. 100% the same after that. But he still. had his mind. Yes. But he didn't train for three. years. That's part of the problem, of.

course. And you know, at 30 years old in that. day and age, it was just a different. world. Like you you don't train for. three years. Not as much knowledge of nutrition, not. as much knowledge of training. techniques, you know, the oldfashioned stuff in Deer Lake, Pennsylvania. Uh not the same as not no. hyperbaric chamber. Right. Right. Right. Etc., etc. Yeah. Just they just robbed him. They. robbed Dust, too, cuz he came back and. he's a different fighter then. He was. much more easy to hit and, you know, he.

became, you know, he relied on his chin. more and, you know, he didn't have the. fleet of foot movement that he had. before then, but he found a way to rise to the top. Yes, he did. Wow. The championship mind. was always there. That's 100% correct. But as a fan of. boxing, it drives me crazy because you. imagine what we could have seen in those. three years if Ali had never been. robbed, never took his title away, and. allowed him to fight all those guys like. Joe Frasier, George Foreman, all those. guys with keeping the same skills that.

he had when he was younger. But, and I think you're 100% correct, Joe, but isn't it in a perverse way a. part of his mystique? Yes. The fact that he was able to come. back from those three and a half years. off, the fact that he was able to rise. to the top again, the fact that he was. able to beat Foreman the way he beat. Foreman. and beat Frasier in the third fight in. the kind of fight you would never have. imagined him being in, right? All these things combine to create the.

unique mystique of Muhammad Ali. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then also the. tragic ending, you know, the the staying. in too long and too many beatings, you. know, the the the just the seeing him at. the end of his life was just so. horrible, you know, and we all know that. that was trauma induced. We all know. that. And it's just it was just sad to. see. We haven't seen that yet in MMA, right? No, not quite. But you're seeing some.

damage. You're you're you're seeing some. guys that are really struggling. you. know, you just they're not as public, so. you're not seeing it from a George St. Pierre or someone like that. George is. one of the very unique former champions. who has all of his wits, his faculties, retired as champion, very healthy. Roy Jones, Roy Jones is a good example. And Roy, you know, Roy famously after Gerald. Mlelen was hurt when the Nigel Ben. fight, he was really concerned because. Gerald Mlelen was the guy that a lot of.

people thought was a giant threat to. Roy. For a long period of time when Roy. and I were working together, he was. providing helpful financial support to. Mlelen's sisters who were caring for. Gerald and you know keeping alive uh on. a daily basis I think in Illinois or. Ohio, someplace like that. But uh. yeah, Roy loved all other fighters and.

he did what he could to help with. Mlullen. I know that that loss that Mlullen had. and the subsequent medical issues, the. stroke and the aneurysm, all that stuff. really disturbed Roy and made him think, you know, about getting out early. 100%. Yeah. Cuz cuz Roy was nothing if. not. smart. Roy was brilliant. Okay. And Roy. very assertively fought in a style that. would limit harm. He didn't want to get hurt.

His gifts, I mean, what a what a guy. Like, who else in recent memory? There's heavyweight boxing and then. there's weight class boxing. Ali is the. unique physical specimen in heavyweight. boxing. Roy is the unique physical specimen in. weight class boxing, you know, and. so much so that he actually won the. heavyweight title. Well, which is exactly right. whatever. he wanted to do, if you put his mind to. it, he could do that, you know, and and. um a part of the ongoing cliche was he.

could play any sport. You know, he could. be great in football, basketball, baseball, etc., etc. And of course, he. did go through the theatrics of playing. a basketball game on the same day that. he fought a fight, which was so crazy. It was It was insane. It was so crazy. But that was his talent was insane. But it was also like he was just showing. people. He was kind of playing with his. food. He's like, I can play a basketball. game and then go and easily win a fight. same night. It's interesting you use the phrase. playing with his food. Um, and I like.

it. Roy like to play with his food. Get. to a certain level. Sometimes you do things because you can. He knew what he could do, right? So, yeah. I mean, his speed was so. preposterous when he would forego the. jab to lead with left hooks, which was. just so crazy. when he stood against the ropes in Miami. against Glenn Kelly and put both hands. behind his back. and made Kelly miss miss and then hit. him with one straight hand and knocked.

him out. Yes, that's Roy Jones. Oh, it was incredible. How about the. Vinnie Pazenza fight when he didn't get. hit for the entire round? The only round. in Compubox's history where someone. never got hit. Yeah, it was crazy. And I was with Roy at the. International Boxing Hall of Fame. induction ceremony a few weeks ago and. we were talking about exactly that. You. know, I we were, you know, talking about. Pacenza and I said, "Is he the guy that. you shut out for a round?" And he said, "Yeah.". Uh, and I just I did it just cuz I. wanted to do it. This episode is brought.

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rifle coffee, America's coffee. Yeah. Well, he was just so far above so many. of the guys that he fought. They just. had no business being in there. that he had to create competition by. doing stuff like that. He had to have fun. Yeah. He had to play. with his food. Well said. Yeah. No, he was spectacular. He, you. know, he was one of those guys that's a. unique once in a-lifetime talent that. unfortunately though his mistake was. going up to heavyweight and then trying.

to go down to 175, which is unbelievably. grueling cuz he was when he was 200 lb. at heavyweight, he was 200 lean, muscular, fast pounds. That was not like. fat to lose. And so to starve himself to. get down to 175 like he was diminished. And you saw that in the Tarver fight. I'm not here to feather your nest, but. you're brilliant. That's 100% correct. Yeah. If I was in. and he lamented it afterward because he.

understood how he had penalized himself. in that way. 25 lbs is so much weight to lose lean. muscle mass. And you made the point when it's muscle. muscle. If it's fat, right, you can go into the steam room and sweat. it all off, right? But once it's muscle, it's there, you know, and it's it's a. part of the structure. It's a part of. the building. Now, how you going to rip. it out, you know? Well, not only that, it diminishes his. endurance. It diminish his durability. gets compromised because you can't take. a punch as well because you've cut so.

much weight. It gets to his confidence. And his. confidence was unshakable, right? Everything like when you go into. the fight fatigued, you're feeling. fatigued. And then you've got a guy like. Tarver who's infinitely talented and has. legitimate knockout power and is talking. [ __ ] to you right. right before the fight. Got any excuses. tonight, Roy? Remember that? And then he knocks him out like, "Holy. shit.". With a brilliant straight left hand. against the ropes. I can see it in my. mind. Yeah. And you know, I just worked. with Tarver a few weeks ago when you.

mentioned the Times Square card and. Tarver was my expert commentator on the. Times Square card. So energetic. Yeah, Tarver's great. So lively, really. good. Yeah, I I I was thrilled. I. thought he was. He's another guy that with his boxing. skill went all the way up to heavyweight. because he was just so much better than. everybody else. How many southpaw heavyweights? Right. Very few. Very few. Michael. Moore. Yeah. Yeah. He was Southpaw. But again, another. won the championship. Yep. Another light heavyweight. and lost it to my man. George Foreman. That one punch. Yeah,

that was crazy. Yeah. Thus the title of my book. Thank. Thank you so much, George. cuz you know. the reason why my book is titled it. happened. Why? Where where I came up with it happened. So. he was the expert commentator in the. weeks leading to his fight with Mo. He. and I together had called Mer against. Holyfield when Mur won the the. championship. And in the weeks before he fought Mur, I.

would pull him aside at crew meals and. um fighter meetings and other occasions. when I could get a minute with him. Three, four times I asked him, "George, how are you going to beat Mura? He's a. southpaw. He's a mover. He has great. feet. Holyfield couldn't find him. And. Holyfield was much faster than you." And. every time I said it, George would fix. me with that implacable George Foreman. gaze and say, "Jim, you watch. There.

will come a moment late in the fight. He. will come and stand in front of me and. let me knock him out." Always the same. words. He will come and stand in front. of me and let me knock him out. Wow. So now as Mo is on the canvas and. Joe Cortez is six, seven, eight and I'm. thinking, what am I going to say about. this? How in the world do you establish this. without being self- glorifying? You.

know, I I've got to say something that's. meaningful, but I want it to be about. him. Yeah. And I thought about what he had said to. me, and what came out spontaneously was, "It happened. It happened. Yeah, it's really me talking to George saying. to him, "Okay, I get it. You told me it. was going to happen and it happened.". Well, do you remember when George came. back and he was 300 lb and everybody was. laughing at him and he was in his late. 30s, I believe. Was he 34, 35,

something like that? When he made his comeback, he hadn't. fought in 10 years. Everyone dismissed. him like what is he doing? He was very. overweight. and he started the bum of the month. tour, you know what I mean? And and that. that's not a fair way to say it. They. weren't bums, but they were people that. he knew he could beat. Yes. To build a dossier toward what he really. wanted. and get in shape. Yep. And no one believed in him. No one. I. remember me as a boxing fan watching. that comeback being sad like, "Oh,

George Foreman's coming back and he's. all fat now. This is sad.". Well, I'm sure you've known a lot of. people like this, Joe. You want to see. George do something? Tell him he can't. do it. Right. Right. Challenge his will. You know, because he's self- constructed. person. You're talking about a guy who. as a teenager 17 or 18 years old says to. himself, "I want to get out of the fifth ward of. Houston. I don't want this life as a. gangster or uh a laborer or whatever I'm.

going to get by living in the fifth ward. of Houston. I want something else." So. he goes to the JobCore in Hayward, California, and enrolls in the JobCore, and that's where he learned to box. That. that's what set him up a year and a half. later to win his Olympic gold medal in. Mexico City. And uh and then go on to his storied. professional u boxing career. Um but you.

know it he he was in his own mind. proving he could do something that other. people didn't think he could do even at. that point. He told me that when he. first got to Hayward. he befriended one of the other people in. the job corps. who was a white kid and uh he said you. know they're talking about things that. they like and the guy talks about Bob. Dylan how much he likes Bob Dylan. So. George got the first two or three Bob. Dylan albums and listened, wanted to.

hear what this is all about and absorbed. the lyrics and paid attention. And when. George told me this story, I said, "George, you Bob Dylan, you know, how am I. supposed to process all this?" And he. began quoting lyrics for me. Wow. Okay. From Blowing in the Wind, from Don't. Think Twice, It's All Right. etc. from. early Bob Dylan songs. Yes. He knew about Hurricane. Yes.

So, he was just an amazing person, you know, so broad-based, you know, and that was I. think that was part of what burned in. him was that everybody, myself included, gave Ali credit for all that. And George. wanted in his own way for people to see, hey, I'm not that different than that, you know. And I mean, one thing he said. to me was, "You can't win the. heavyweight championship of the world. without being smart." Okay. A stupid. person couldn't do this. You know, it's.

true. Yeah. So, he respected Mo's intelligence, but he. also. understood something that I didn't. understand. He'll come and stand in. front of me late in the fight and let me. knock him out. Crazy that he predicted it that way, cuz. that's exactly how it played out. Oh, yeah. Go to YouTube. Yeah. If you haven't seen it, it's it's. uncanny. It really is. Giant Michael Moore fan when he was a. light heavyweight. And I think a lot of. people forgot how dangerous he was at. light heavyweight. He was one of the.

great light heavyweights. No question. Because of the southpaw. punching power, you know, power at light. heavywe. I don't know if it's true in UFC as it. is in boxing, but you don't see southpaw. punchers very often. Southpaws are. technical. They box. They take advantage. of their foot skills and their hand. speed and they they beat you with boxing. skills. You're not often going to run. into a southpaw who's going to knock you. out. But we've already talked about. Tarver and and Mura was another one who. had punching power. Uh and it's, you.

know, kind of Cooney. Cooney was a. southpaw with punching power. It's kind of doubly effective if you've. got that because you're worried about. the technical issues with a southpaw and. now he brings a cannon. Right. Right. Yeah. The southpaw thing. was always so confusing to people. because if you ever boxed before, you're. so accustomed to that left hand being. forward, right? Then all a sudden. everything's reverse and now you're. thinking, right? And if you don't have a lot of southpaws. that you train with on a regular basis, things aren't automatic anymore. And one of the things that George used. to talk to me about all the time was.

angles. That you know, you're you're. standing in front of another man, you're. confronting him, you're trying to. deliver and stop delivery. angles. It's. all about where does it come from and. where is it going and how can I deal. with that. Now. I was never a fighter so I can't. empathize but I can sympathize when I. listen to that guy. You can see it right and I think the. greatest at angles of all time is. Lomachenko. Nobody nobody. the greatest footwork.

the greatest hand skills the the most. effective training by his father. Yeah. What a genius move to take him out. of boxing for 2 years to study Ukrainian. dance. And brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And. and by the way, he had an effect on the. national team for several years. And. what culture in the world has had more. accomplishments and surprising new stars. in boxing,

right, other than Ukraine, right? and Usyk who is basically like. moves like a giant lomachenko just not. quite as effectively. That's a really great phrase that I had. never conjured before this moment. Thank. you, Joe. A giant lomachenko. That's. exactly what he. can't quite move that well when you're. 220 lbs. You're just dealing with. gravity and mass, but you're still creating unique angles. You're you're coming at them from unique. approaches, etc. They're hard for your. opponent to figure out is impossible for.

most otherws. you to the body as often as he can. Yep. Yeah. Lomachenko in his prime was. just a magical thing to watch. Brilliant. It was like you were just watching. poetry. and I had the privilege of calling those. fights, you know. It was an extreme privilege. Yeah, it was uh it was amazing watching. him just do something where you'd seen. so many different versions of boxers and.

you watch him do it and you're like, "Oh. my god, he put a new thing on this.". That's why I can't understand at this. moment can't really figure out what's up. with Teapima Lopez. How do you. beat Vasile Lomachenko, right? And then wind up, you know, with. somewhat indifferent results since that. time. Yeah. He he fought better than the other guys. in Times Square and I give him credit. for upholding the card. Uh but still. there's nothing since the Lachenko win.

I mean you lose to George Cambosus. I think the Cambosus fight was I think. he was just a little overconfident and. he got caught and then that really. rocked him. That really shocked him. He. got dropped early in the fight. Remember. that? It's a bad sport to be overconfident in. the worst sport the worst sport. whether you're talking UFC or boxing. Yeah. Any combat sport when you don't. appreciate the potential that your. opponent has to do damage. Well, I used to say to people all the. time, these are fine margins of.

competition. You think you see a lot of. wipeouts in boxing because you see a. second round knockout or third round. knockout and you think that means. there's a huge talent gap between the. two fighters. No, it means one fighter. made a mistake. Okay? Yeah, 90% of the time it means one fighter. made a mistake and if he thinks about it. and trains against it, he won't make. that mistake again. So. like a perfect examples, Juan Manuel. Marquez versus Pacquiao. 100%. They have three insane fights that are. very close. Marquez lands one bomb and.

starches Pacquiao. This one error, he. got a little overconfident, a little. little too. Greatest counter puncher of his era. and power. Yeah. and with with power with the. straight ahead power from the shoulder. Marcus was a gifted fighter. very gifted but just like that one. moment like if that had happened in the. first fight we would look at the whole. thing very differently. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. This just like the the margins as you. were saying are so small for victory.

that when you see like a spectacular. result you do automatically assume oh. that person's just that much better. But. sometimes it's just one error. It's a. moment in time. You know, if it's a. knockout, now if somebody gets knocked. down six times, then you're talking. about something different. But one. knockdown that leads to a 10 count, that. was a momentary mistake, right? Uh and that's again that goes to the. fine margins of competition. You can't.

make the one mistake, right? And then you know it's also how. do you bounce back from that? Like some. people the one moment even if just a. knock down they don't have the capacity. to correct and stay safe and then. regroup like they get shook and then now. they're fighting from this position this. defensive position where they're a. little bit gunshy. So Mark has exposed the difficulties. that Pacquiao could have against a great. counterpuncher and now we get ready for.

Mayweather Pacquiao. Right. And. Mayweather just did such a smart thing, but also a devious thing. Waiting until. Pacquiao was older, waiting till he. slowed down. And then. devious is not illegal in boxing. It's. encouraged. Yeah. In any entrepreneurial sport, devious is not illegal. Devious can be. an asset. That's how you retire with a 50. I give Floyd credit for brilliance. Okay. Floyd wasn't just a smart fighter. Floyd was a brilliant fighter. He was on.

his own level. And so much so, you know, in any matchup between the great. counterpuncher and the great attacker, you know, that the counterpuncher has. the advantage. He's got more options. He's got more ways of winning. The. attacker has to break through the wall, so to speak. So, in the years before. Mayweather Pacquiao, people would run up. to me on the street, run up to me in the. shopping center in Vegas, run up to me. in a hotel. When am I going to see. Mayweather Pacquiao? And I would say,

well, we don't know, but what exactly is. it you think you're going to see? Oh, I. can't wait. It's going to be such a. great fight. No, it's not going to be a. great fight. It's going to be watching. like watching somebody pluck the legs. off a f a spider. All right, you know, at a stepbystep method and you're going. to watch Mayweather pluck the legs off. the spider that is Pacquiao. And it's. going to be pretty easy for him and it's.

not going to be wildly entertaining, but. it is going to be one-sided victory. So, why are you so excited about the fight? Oh, no. I don't think that's the case. Da da da da da. But if you knew Floyd, you know, Floyd was only about winning. the fight. He'll make fans other way on. the web. I call him the first great social media. genius. Yeah. He was great at talking [ __ ] He. got everybody upset at him so badly that. they wanted to see him lose and that. would sell tons of pay-per-views. He realized you could build an audience.

with negativity. Yes. You didn't have to be an omnibus. character. You didn't have to be. somebody everybody loved. You could be. totally negative and that would build a. following, too. Yeah. When he shifted from Pretty Boy. Floyd to Money Mayweather, changed the. whole thing. He knew what he was doing. He definitely did. Look the and it was. it would have been an interesting fight. had he fought Pacquiao when he was. younger in his prime. It would have been. a very difficult fight. Would have been a more interesting. fight. Much more difficult. because because any go forward physical.

warrior like Pacquiao is going to wear. down. Right. Exactly. And any brilliant counter puncher like. Floyd is going to retain more. Yeah. So he did. Yeah. It would have been much more. interesting when they were younger. Also. the fact that Pacquiao fought him with a. bum shoulder, that was a disaster, too. Money talks. Yeah. I mean, look, I guess he was faced. with this thing, Legacy or I mean, it. was the biggest pay-per-view of all time. in boxing, correct? I believe so. I believe so. And I think it was like 4. million buys or something crazy like. that. It was huge. So, like, what is that? It was massive.

Yeah. It just lured Pacquiao. All those people who had run up to me on. the street corners for years, finally. got the chance to see what they wanted. to see. Yeah. Give him a cortisone shot, throw. them out there. Yeah. Unfortunately, this is an advertisement from. BetterHelp. Stress in the workplace is. becoming an issue around the world. Did. you know that 60% of the global. workforce has reported experiencing. higher than normal levels of stress? So, it's more important than ever that we. learn to take some time for ourselves.

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Unfortunately for I remember there was. like a class action lawsuit was a lot of. people were upset that Pacquiao fought. injured a lot of the gamblers. I never talked to Freddy about that, but. you know, uh, at the end of the day, the. fighter makes the decision. Well, the money. Yeah. And the money. And the money. Yeah. That happens a lot. in the UFC. There's a lot of fighters. that fight injured. And, you know, Yeah. I got to tell you this while we're. talking about him. All right. I. apologize for going off script here a. little bit. I was with Manny three weeks.

ago, less than a month ago, at the Hall. of Fame inductions in Canes Stood, New. York, where he was being inducted into. the Hall of Fame. And uh on the night. before the induction ceremony, there's a. big banquet in a banquet hall at the. Turning Stone Casino. And I'm sitting up. on the Deis between Roy and Ross. Greenberg, my former boss at HBO. And. right across to the left of us behind.

the podium is Manny. And. several people spoke. I didn't know that. I was going to speak. I was asked to get. up and speak. I did. Roy did a speech, etc., etc. Eventually, Manny got up and. made a speech. Now, I met Manny Pacquiao 24 years ago. in a fighter meeting room in Las Vegas. before his fight against Leanola Lewaba, which was his first appearance in the. United States. Class was that? He was a kind of a throwin opponent.

What weight class was that? Yeah. So, that would have been 122. Isn't that nuts? And Larry and I were 100% convinced that. Led Wyel was the best 122lb fighter in. the world. We had seen him on the. undercard of Lewis Rockbman in uh in. Johannesburg, South Africa. There's. nobody nobody who could possibly be. better than that. Grace, style, hand. skills, all the stuff. And I meet Manny. in that room. He can't put three or four.

words of English together. I learn his. backstory that he survived by selling. stolen cigarettes on the streets of. General Santos City in the Philippines. I get and understand that his big. activity outside of the gym is to go. play pool. He's a pool player in in bar in bar. rooms. Exactly. Level pool player, etc. All of that. And um and then fast. forward 24 years and he's being inducted. at the Hall of Fame and without warning.

he's asked to speak that night and he. stands up and makes a 15minute speech. maybe 12 minutes but it was more than 10. all in English all perfect. uh all more or less off the top of his. head unedited. It was brilliant. And and I went to him. afterward, hugged him, told him how much. I loved him, and I said I said, "Manny, I first met you 24 years ago when you. couldn't put three words of English.

together, and I know that politics had. something to do with this." And he said, "Yes, but a lot of my political speeches. were in Tagalog.". Uh, and I said, "Well, some of them were. in English." He said, "Yes, some." Um, and I said, uh, I don't think there's. any sport other than boxing where. somebody could have achieved the kind of. personal transformation that you have. achieved. This is the only one. And he.

said, well, it it sure helped me, that's. for sure. Now, you probably know the. story about Muhammad Ali and graduating. from high school in Louisville. Yes. Okay. So, just for our listeners and consumers, um. Ali had very bad grades and in his. senior year he was flunking a math. course and in order to graduate he had. to pass the math course and he was. nowhere near it. And the math teacher.

went to the principal of the high school. and said, "I'm going to give him a. passing grade even though he has not. performed on any of the tests and he. doesn't do the homework and stuff like. that." And the principal is like,"Wh. would you do this for for this kid? Why. would you give him a passing grade when. he hasn't earned it?" And the teacher. said, "You have to understand, he's. going to be the most famous man in the. world." And we cannot be the high school. that denied a diploma to the most famous.

man in the world. That's such a crazy statement. I wonder. if it's true. I wonder I wonder if it's true, too. But. it's it's a fun story to tell. And of. course, it's secondhand. You're you're. exactly right. It is. It's so. I don't know the teacher and I don't. know the principal. I just know the. story. Uh and I know and I know Ali's. primary biographer, uh Tom Hower. So. maybe I got it from Tom. Yeah, I I'd like to believe that that's. true. I'd like to believe it's true, too. It makes it more. Let's make him back to believe it's.

true. The thing about Pacquiao that's so. extraordinary is that he kept his power. through eight weight classes. That is. just wild. like who what other fighter. can you name that went through eight. different weight classes as a world. champion? I can't none. No, obviously. Um what I. what I did learn that may relate to that. is Foreman was at great pains to explain. to me and explained a couple of times. that power punching is not a physical.

gift. Power punching is a science. Power. punching is the product of real. technical knowledge. Power punching is. about um footwork, weight shift, uh the. angle at which you deliver the punch. Uh. you know, all sorts of things not. directly related to your strength or. quote power. Uh and George was a. disciplined and knowledgeable scientist. uh about stuff like that. And he he.

explained it all to me one time. And of. course, if you watch the Mor knockout, he lands the first one, two, right on. the button. Mhm. And then having Mur where he wants him, he puts a little more mustard on the. second one, too. And we're out of there. But there are physical gifts that you. are just they're just God-given gifts of. power. Big hands. Big hands. Big hands are. shoulders. Yeah. All that. There's just certain guys though that. just have extraordinary power. Like you. remember Julian Jackson in his prime? Oh.

my gosh, the hook. Oh my gosh. Extraordinary power. At some moment or another, he's going to. get you. Yeah, it was just disturbing how hard he. hit. It was just different than. everybody else. And it looked like he. was doing the same thing, but the. results were so much different. How about Andy Lee? Skinny, not somebody you would expect to have, you know, heavy hands, knocking. everybody out. Deontay Wilder. Yeah, another one. A 209 lb heavyweight that's flattening. people. like 209 pounds when he fights.

Tyson Fury the first time. Some some of it is the bravery to. commit, right? You know, can you can you push your. weight forward, right? In a way that might leave you open to. the counter. and and believe that you're going to get. the better of that exchange. If you. believe you're going to get the better. of the exchange, go ahead, go forward. And and that enhances your chance of. knocking someone out. there. But there is there's physical. gifts that you are just God-given and. some people have them. And the these are.

the extraordinary outliers. The Deontay. Wilders, the Julian Jacksons, the uh. John Mugabis. Remember Mugabi? John the Beast Mugabi. Oo, I rewatched that Mugabi Haggler. fight the other day in the. What a great fight. What a great fight. What a fight. What a fight. Haggler was. my hero when I was a kid and he was. so you're probably. so I'm sure you're an advocate with. regard to what I call the number one.

elevator fight of all time that Haggler. was the winner. No, the. the number one elevator fight of all. time. And an elevator fight is the fight. where you're Jim Lampley or you're Joe. Rogan or you're any combat sports. expert, etc. and you step onto an. elevator with six people and somebody. turns around and says, "Who won Leonard. Haggler?" Okay. Okay. The debate about the decision, you know. Yes. And uh you know, I'm sure you say. Haggler beat Ray. Yes. Uh, and of course we all know that.

Rey partially won the judges and the. crowd with Showbiz with the, you know, with the way that he threw his arms up. at the end of every round and, you know, called attention to himself. And he, he was quite aware of what he was doing. Uh, and he was quite aware also that it. would get under Haggler's skin. So, you. know, there there was an element of. genius in Rey, as we talked about. already, that that went to more than just his. spectacular physical gifts,

right? Yeah. No, he he gamed the system. a little bit. He figured out how to. flurry at the end of the rounds and make. a big impression in the judge's eyes. That was a very close fight, but that. fight always bothered me. And one of the. things that bothered me is I felt like. there were moments where Haggler could. have turned it up and didn't. And then. when he retired after that fight and. went to Italy and became a giant movie. star in Italy, the conspiratorial part. of my brain was always like, was that.

like one of those deals where everybody. assumed that Haggar was going to win? Haggar was a destroyer. Haggler had. knocked out Tommy Hearns. Haggler had. beaten everybody in the division, knocked out Mugabi. He was he was the. man. You know, you fought, right? Yeah. So, you fought. I didn't I mean, I've. only talked, but because you fought, you. probably have an even stronger sense. than I do of how difficult the sport is. Yes. Uh the training is difficult.

Mhm. The fear factor is is certainly part of. it. Um the level of concentration and. devotion that it takes. Uh it it's not. easy. Team sports are easier. Uh and and um and so, you know, I'm I'm. I'm thinking that every fighter reaches. a point where enough. Yes. And and they might reach that point. without really cognitively knowing that. they've reached that point where it's.

enough. Haggler went to Italy, as you. say. Yeah. Maybe he had already reached. something like enough before he fought. Ray in that fight. Well, you know, he had accomplished so. much and also his training camps were. the stuff of legend. I mean, he would spar a hundred rounds a. week sometimes, which is just insane. Mhm. Haggler was a monster. I mean, his. conditioning and his drive and his will. and his discipline, he was a monster. He. would scare the [ __ ] out of everybody.

just from his work ethic. I remember I. told the story. There was a news piece. um when he was training on the Cape and. it was in the middle of the winter and. he was fighting Mustafa Ham Show and he. was running down the sand dune screaming. war. with combat boots on in the winter. and I remember thinking. war. cuz you think you're disciplined. You. think you're driven. You think, you. know, you're special. And you see a guy. like that, it's like he's what my friend. David Gogggins calls uncommon amongst.

uncommon men. Great line. So, where does Haggler. Hearn's rank among your all-time. favorites? One of the greatest of all time. Great. One of the greatest fights of all time. because Haggler just threw caution to. the wind. [ __ ] all this boxing. Just. jumped jumped out. So did Tommy. So did Tommy. Both of them did. Tommy didn't go in with a. self-protective approach. He tried to. box. Remember after he broke his hand, he tried just throwing the jab out. there. You could tell early on in the. first round when he broke his hand. Yes.

Because from then on, he's moving. He's. a little But he's already endured so. much damage. I mean, they have just. thrown each other into the wood chipper. Both guys were just blasting away. I hope a lot of people are going to. listen to this and go watch Agler on uh. on their web attachment because it's as. great as as anything has ever been. It. was insane. I remember being in my. living room when when Hearns went down. and just going, "Wow." Like, I can't. believe. And this was after Hearns had.

knocked out Duran and I thought nobody. could knock out Duran. When Hearns. flatlined Duran, I was like, "Good lord. Good lord." Like to see Duran face down. on the canvas is like, "Yeah, you have. to check your eyes. Like, is this real?". Well, did Tommy break his hand with that. right hand in the first round against. Haggler? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go. You've lost your primary weapon. He has one knockdown attributed to him. in his career and it's [ __ ] The. Juan Roll Dan fight. Mhm.

[ __ ] Not really a knockdown. And now we deal with Canelo who has had. one knockdown attributed to him in his. career and in my view it was [ __ ]. Which fight was that? So it was Miguel Cotto's little brother. Jose Cotto. It was the first time we had. Canelo on uh HBO. believe it was an. undercard of a top ranked pay-per-view. I'm not 100% certain uh about that. And. um Cotto's little brother, Jose, caught. uh Canelo with a right-hand body punch.

to the chest and Canelo hit the ropes. behind him and bounced off the ropes. kind of unbalanced. He didn't go down, but he came off the ropes ungainainely, unbalanced, etc. and the referee, and I. can't remember which referee, stepped in. and very technically ruled that the. ropes had held him up. So, that's the only official knockdown. in Canelo's career, and he didn't touch. the canvas. That's crazy. Nobody has ever put him on the canvas.

And this is part of what uh Terrence is. facing. as he gets ready to fight him in. September is you're you're fighting a. guy who up to this moment in his career. has been utterly knockout proof. Mhm. Knockdown proof. Well, even against a. guy like Bval who's huge. Yeah. You know, exactly. A huge light heavyweight. Yeah. But BVOL is Bvole is. I'm gonna say at least 50/50 a backup. counter puncher. Uh and they don't.

muster exactly the same power as a go. forward attacker. True. I you know, you notice that he hasn't. thought betterf. Uh, and I'm not sure. that better be up would be the right. matchup, but. for Canelo Canelo, I think that would be. a nightmare matchup. Yeah, Better Be, especially even though he's almost 40. now, right? Is he 40? He might be 40. He might be 40, but he's still in shape. and he still comes forward and he's a, you know, naturally heavy hands, big. hitter. One of the scariest of all time at 175.

He's another one of those guys. It's. just like, but with him, it's volume. It's not one shot, but it's this thuting. volume that never ends. This constant. attack, which is has made his two fights with. Bevole so spectacular to watch, you. know, because Bol is not a make fire. fighter. He's a natural counter puncher. But if you insist on making the fire and. you're strong enough to make the fire, then Bol has to fight, which he's done twice against Better B.

Well, he made brilliant adjustments in. the second fight. Brilliant adjustments. He's a brilliant guy. Yeah. I mean, he really really made the. proper adjustments and the counter. strikes and the movement and he was just. much better in the second fight. It's another country with very good. boxing training. Oh, phenomenal. Do you think that. they're are they having a rubber match. on the third? I don't know. Yeah, I'm not. I don't talk to promoters anymore, so. I'm not sure about that. I hope they do. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic idea. I think Riad season was trying to put.

that together. I think they're trying to. put together a third fight. I really. hope they do make that fight. Go Turkey. Yeah, you kind of have to do it now. before better be of is just he's. probably passed his prime. 41 42 etc. These numbers sound. forbidding. Yes, but still even as. remember was 45, right? What did he still have? Power, right? And but in skill the skill thing. like here's the best example of that. Bernard Hopkins who has maintained their.

skill deep into their 40s. In fact, at a. world class level at 49 years old, beating like top contenders at 49 years. old. One of the smartest men I've ever. met. Okay. Bernard Hopkins is smart, beyond smart. Uh he has uh PhD type. intelligence. He really does. And he was. also a very critical and thoughtful. self-examiner. So those two things help Bernard to. sustain long into you know antiquity and.

an extremely disciplined personal life. Yes, that's the big one. You know he he kept his prison tattoo on. his arm. and he kept that number on his arm to. remind him that he was never going to go. back. M. and and I asked him one time, I said, "What what's the hardest thing you've. ever done?" And he said, "Well, the. hardest thing I've ever done was to walk. off nine in the neighborhood in which I.

grew up." I said, "What do you mean walk. off nine?" Nine years of probation, nine. years of living on and in the same. streets where I was the king of the. streets when I was uh on the other side. of the law. Nine years of reminding. myself that I could never go back, that. my my behavior had to change completely. That's what he called walking off nine. Wow. What a phrase, huh? Yeah. What a phrase.

What a guy. Yeah. Really? What a guy. Well, I remember when he was. middleweight champion and he wasn't. getting the credit that he felt like he. deserved. And he was, you know, squabbbling with promoters. They kept. him on the shelf. I'm like, my god, he's. like wasting away in the prime of his. life. And I felt like we're going to. like miss out on the prime of his life. And then here he he gets into the Felix. Trinidad fight. And I was like, this. guy's this is crazy watching this guy. like completely outclass Tito Trinidad.

I'm like, this is nuts. Of all the. fighters I've ever known, if you were to. ask me who is the one most likely to. still be holding every dollar he ever. made, that's Bernard. Okay. He gives nothing away. Uh, and he. protects himself. He protects his. family. He protects everything about his. experience in an extremely devoted way. Why? Walking off nine. Wow. Never wants to go back. Wow. Well, those are the stories that.

are so inspiring about boxing, right? This the the the people that have used. boxing as a vehicle to get out of their. circumstances. Totally. You know. Yeah. And Bernard's one of the greatest. examples imaginable. Yeah. I love him. You know, I had him on my show, The. Fight Game on HBO. I had him do. technical pieces. because he was better than anybody at. explaining footwork, technique, etc. Andre Ward could have done it, too. But. Andre was still fighting uh at that.

period of time. Yeah, that was a great show, man. That. was another bummer when when HBO stopped. doing boxing. Well, look, successful for them. That's. I like to say this. It wasn't HBO. Okay. The minute that Time Warner was bought. by a bunch of cell phone salesmen from. Dallas, AT&T, the character of the operation changed. and the first thing that went away was. boxing. Uh it's in my book, you'll read. it. Uh there's an anecdote about uh me.

uh at a post Emmy Awards or post Golden. Globe Awards event in Hollywood shortly. after AT&T had purchased HBO. And I was. seated at the table of Richard Pleper, the uh longtime brilliant chairman of. HBO, my beloved boss. And uh Pleppler. said, "See that guy over there in the. gray suit?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "That's your new boss. That's John. Stany, the CEO of AT&T. I think you.

ought to go say hello. I think you ought. to go meet him and just spend a little. time with him. So, I took his advice. I. went over and had a 10-minute discussion. with Stanky. Very nice, um, very. cordial, fun, and I walked back to. Pleper's table, and he said, "So, what. do you think?" I said, "I think boxing. is dead." He said, "I agree with you. I. just wanted to be sure that we were on. the same page. Oh god.

Yeah. So it was clear it was clear from. that moment that they they were not. interested in going forward with. something as. Why did you think boxing was dead? Why'. you say that? Well, I mean I could just tell from the. way in which he spoke to me and the. you know so you weren't saying it based. on your personal. diffident replies to questions like are. we gonna do this fight? You know what do. you think about that? Stuff like that. It was abundantly clear that they just. they saw it as a negative rather than a. positive and.

and public perception or profitability. Profitability. really too many unpredict many. unpredictables in boxing. You schedule a. show, somebody gets hurt, etc. I I think. they didn't want that kind of um real. life upheaval and also they saw it as. unsavory or at least it felt that way to. me. Yeah. you know. So, um, yeah. Well, that. this goes to the fact, and you know this. as well as I do, or maybe better, people.

from outside combat sports don't. understand combat sports. You know, you're either in the culture. and you get it or you're not, right? you know, and I, you know, when I. first started calling fights, I was. assigned to call boxing at ABC Sports by. an incoming new president of the sports. department who wanted to get rid of me. and who thought and who thought that I. would be such a misfit in boxing that if. he assigned me to boxing, the audience.

would reject me. really, that they would see me as the successor. to Coell. that would cut my throat and. then I would walk away from my contract, which is what he wanted me to do. He. wanted me to, he thought my contract was. absurd, too lucrative. He didn't like. the guarantees for relative to exposure. And he told my agent flat out, he said, "I'm going to get rid of Jim. I'm going. to make him walk away." And his first. method for doing it was boxing. So, of. course, that means he didn't know that.

the very first sports event my mother. ever sat me down to watch when I was 6. years old after my father died when I. was five was Sugar Ray Robinson versus. Boba Olsen for the middleweight. championship on Gillette Friday Night. Fights that I had grown up all through. my childhood and teenage years watching. Gillette Friday Night Fights. And later. people would say to me, "Who's the voice. in the back of your mind when you're. calling fights? Is it Coell?" I said, "Oh, hell no. I would never try to. emulate that." Don Duny, crisp, precise,

factual, on point. That's who I'm. hearing in the back of my head when I uh. when I call fights. Interesting. Yeah. So, he he thought he could get rid. of me by assigning me to boxing. And um. he also did not seem to be paying much. attention to the fact that his division. with leadership of a guy named Alex. Wallow who was a boxing freak had just. signed a get acquainted lookie contract. with a 19-year-old heavyweight from.

upstate New York whose name was Mike. Tyson. Yeah. So the first fight I ever called on TV. was Mike Tyson versus Jesse Ferguson in. Glenn's Falls, New York. And this is the. famous drive his nose bone into his into. his brain fight. Yeah. Alex went to do postfight interview. after Tyson had obliterated Jesse's nose. with an uppercut. There was blood all. over the ring. And uh and Alex said, you know, Mike, tell me about the uppercut. And Mike.

said, Katamato taught me that the. purpose of the uppercut is to drive the. opponent's nose bone into his brain. I. was trying to drive his nose bone into. his brain. And I'm standing on the other. side of the ring listening to this. headset on and I thought to myself, "Oh. my god, look at what I've stumbled into. here. This kid is not only going to be. the biggest attraction in boxing, he's. going to be the biggest attraction in. American culture if he can keep coming. up with quotes like that." And of. course, within the next few weeks, they. all started spilling out. Boxing is a.

hurt business. Everybody's got a plan. until you hit them. All the things that. Damato had taught him, which he. memorized and then reproduced in his. media context. Yes. One of my favorite TV fights was him. versus Marvis Frasier because it was. such a terrifying execution. I'm giving away too much of the book, Joe. I mean, my my publisher would say, "Wait, don't tell them the whole book. Come on. People are going to buy it. anyway. Don't worry about that." So,

Alex Wallow, Alex Wallow and I lived. five blocks apart on Upper Fifth Avenue. in New York. And when we went to upstate. New York for the Tyson fights, of which. there were several, we would always ride. up in his uh Green Jaguar and he knew. the route and he would drive play me his. esoteric rock music. You ever heard of. cockroin? Try him out sometime. No. Uh, and uh, and so all the way up to Albany.

for the Marvis Frasier fight, Alex is. saying to me, you know, I'm thinking of saying in the opening on. camera that Mike will knock him out in. the first round. Do you think that's too. audacious? And I said, well, Alex, you're the expert. You know, I'm just a. throwin blowby-blow guy who's trying to. get my feet wet here. I'm the last. person who's going to tell you what it. is you should say. So, if you believe. Mike is going to knock him out in the. first round, and you're confident saying.

that. First of all, no one's going to. penalize you on Monday if you're wrong, nobody's going to print some big. headline that says Wallow was crazy or. something like that. It's it goes into. the wash at that point. And second of. all, if you're right, you will get. credit for it. If you're right, Rudy. Martsky will say so in USA Today. Um, and so that's our position for 2/3 of. the trip to Albany. And now in the last. oh 40 or 50 miles, he starts saying,

"What if I said he's going to knock him. out in the first minute?" Do you think. that's too brave? Same thing. Alex, if you believe he's. going to knock him out in the first. minute, you go ahead and say he's going. to knock him out in the first minute. I'm not here to control you or tell you. what to say. Say whatever you want to. say. I think I'm going to say that he's. going to knock him out in the first. minute. So, the following day, we do a. rehearsal for the opening on camera. And. he says he'll knock him out in the first. minute. Then, when we do the live. opening on camera for the show,

he gets a little more cautious and he. pulls it back to There you are. Look at that. Look at you. hairported on the right. We'll get to. that in a moment. Um he uh he pulls it. back and when we do it live on camera he. says Mike will knock him out in the. first round. Was it 33 seconds or 31 seconds? I. think it was 33 seconds. And all the way back to New York.

and groaning, why in God's name didn't I. say what I really believed? Like Alex, Alex, you said he'd knock him out in the. first round. You're going to get credit. for that. You were right. Yeah, but I. could have gotten more credit if I said. what I really believe. That's such a silly perspective. Now, you we talk about fighters. freezing. Marvis froze on Saturday. I mean, on on. Friday, the day before the fight, Marvis. was frozen. Well, we knew we knew coming into that. fight. We knew it was a perfect fight.

for Mike to showcase because Marvis had. the giant name because he was Joe. Frasier's son and Joe Frasier had been. trash talking Mike and. it helped to create what ultimately. became. Yeah. the myth of Mike Tyson. The notion that he was going to knock. everybody out in that way partially. because of stuff like that that Douglas. is a 42 to1 underdog in Tokyo. Yes. When if you looked at the record. for the preceding year, year and a half. coming into Tokyo,

Mike went the distance with James Bone. Crusher Smith. Mike went the distance. with Tony Tucker. Mike went the distance. with James Quick Tillis. There were. scorers at ringside in upstate New York. who had Tillis as the winner in the. fight. He went to the last 10 seconds. with Jose Rebalta. He went the distance. with Mitch Blood Green. Mhm. What did they all have in common? They. were all taller than Mike. Mhm. Some of them have a right hand that. would come over the top where he would. have difficulty seeing the delivery. And.

um when you get to Douglas, best athlete. of the group, former college basketball. player with good feet, had a big right. hand. I mean, looking back, pure logic, no way in the world Mike should be a 42. to1 favorite against Buster Douglas. But Buster Douglas had underperformed. most of his career and had not been. motivated. Then his mother dies. That's. correct. 100% correct. And you're right. on point for saying it at this moment. Yeah. His mother died. And then.

and that lit him up. Lit him up and never again. And Mike was at the height. Yes. Of his differences with Robin Given. Right. Right. Constant turmoil and. Yeah. And partying and and feeling. invincible. Nothing that can do more damage to a. good man than the wrong woman. Right. Yeah. And she was the wrong woman. She's the wrong woman, period. Yeah. That was. There's There's There's certain women.

out there like that that they could tank. your life. Yeah. And unfortunately, OJ. used to say to me, if you want to know what the daughter's. going to be like, look at the mother. And if you looked at her mother and the. background relative to Dave Winfield and. all of that, maybe you could have predicted. or or as Merchant said. in our on camera prior to the Tubs Tokyo. fight, Tyson versus Tubs in Tokyo, first. fight I ever did on HBO.

Larry had a line before the fight where. he said, "This is the beginning of the. Robin thing. Cuss had died. Um, Jimmy Jacobs had. died." No, Cus hadn't died. Jimmy Jacobs. had at any rate. Um, was Kevin Rooney was already out then. Yeah, right. That's right. Yeah. Larry said, "Since the beginning of. organized boxing, heavyweight champions. have often consorted with actresses and.

never to their benefit.". It's a classic Merchant among many. classic Merchant lines. I love him. That was one of the best things about. you and Merchant and just the entire. commentary team at HBO was that there's. you had these intelligent, articulate. people involved in what many people. think of as the most barbaric of all. sports. Yes. So, it defined it in a very different.

way. That's the HBO way. Yeah. Elevated. It certainly was elevated. Ele and and and HBO's executives were. smart enough to see that you can treat. it as an intellectual event. Yeah. And and if you're doing it right, you'll. get away with it. To be with the commentators. It it it. frames everything. The same exact event. with crude commentators is not the same. experience because you don't get that. intelligent, articulate analysis. and a. guy like Larry Merchant who'd been.

around boxing for his entire life and. had a deep understanding of it and you. and then it's even the funny back and. forth banter between Larry and George. Foreman when they would disagree on. things. It was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And I'm very proud. to say, not blowing my own horn, but Larry and. George in particular, there's a sports television columnist in. the New York Daily News named Bob. Raceman. R A I S M. And at some point in.

that arc, Raceman wrote in his TV sports. column in the Daily News, "Lampley, Merchant, and Foreman are the greatest. three-man broadcasting team in the. history of sports television." Now, think about that. That's amazing. This is not Monday Night Football. This. is HBO boxing, right? Yeah. You know, I mean, and so he was. saying in effect, "This is better than. Gford, Meredith, and Coell.". Wow. Uh, and you know, I was I was very very.

flattered by that, you know, which I. should have been. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. Having a. great team like that and and it was also. there was the flow where you guys had. worked together so often. You really. And there was the between round stuff. Yeah. What set Showtime and HBO apart from. ABC, CBS, and NBC? No commercials, right? And and no commercials means you get one.

of the most meaningful and communicative. parts of the narrative, which is what. goes on in the corner between rounds. So, you're watching Tyson Douglas, for. instance, and you see these two novice trainers. struggling with a condom filled with. water. Right. Right. to try to to try to do. something to ease the swelling in his. eye. No inswell. Unbelievable. I. remember Ray Ray nearly fell off his. chair when he saw that. It's just so hard to believe that you.

could achieve the highest level of. combat sports, the heavyweight champion. of the world, and yet have this really. rank amateur corner. There was so much that was taken for. granted about Mike. Yes. During that stage of his career, the only person in that camp once Damato. died, the only person and Jimmy died, the only person in that camp who was. really aware of how vulnerable he could. be was Mike. Mike was a boxing genius.

Mike knew much more than those guys. about how to prepare for a fight, etc., etc. But again, before Tokyo, he was. distracted. Yeah, he was. thoroughly distracted. And it just it. comes with success. All the trappings. I. mean, he was just constantly, you know, you know, Mike, right? Yeah. Yeah. Very. Have you had him in here? Oh, a couple times. Yeah. One of the most lovable people in the. world. To death. Yeah. He's great. You can't not love Mike if you know him. No. If you know him. I mean, the first.

time I met him, it's it's hard to. believe he's really in the room. You're. like, I can't believe he's real. Like, he's right there. This is Mike Tyson. me as a child, I remember when I was a. kid, when I guess I wasn't a child, I'm. only a year younger than him, but when. he lost to Buster Douglas, I didn't. watch it until after the fight. I. watched a replay of it, and I still. expected him to win. You know how crazy that is? Like, that's. the kind of aura. So, you read in the paper and on the web.

that he's lost, but you're still. expecting him to win. I remember I heard about it in a gas. station. Someone told me in a gas. station. and I can't believe this is true. I was getting gas and I heard did you. hear Mike Tyson got knocked out and I. remember pumping gas. What the [ __ ] are. you talking about? Like what? Like. Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson? What? For real? So we talked about the. call of Foreman Mur and where that call. came from. The other call that is on.

that same level in terms of, you know, people remembering and stuff like that. is that call and you just came very. close to identically articulating what. my call was because, you know, I'm. watching the rounds in Tokyo and I've. arrived in Tokyo with firm opinion that. Mike is going to knock this guy out in. one, two, three rounds, something like. that. And as the rounds go on and you're. watching the debacle unfold, the, you know, water in the rubber glove.

to try to stop the swelling and stuff. like that, you realize that the. preparation might not be all there. And. Douglas is getting more confident. And. Douglas is landing his jab, etc., etc., and hooking off the jab. and hooking off the jab. And I mean, it. people think that he knocked him out. with a right hand. It was the left hook. that that did the damage. The left hook. was thunderous. and like stumbled to his. side and then but at any rate. I'm sitting there in Tokyo.

It's 10:30 or 11:00 in the morning. There are 34,000 people seated around me. making no noise whatsoever. Right? The culture of a Japanese sports event. It's as though they are at an opera, you. know, and that's just cultural. It's the. way they are. And as that count is. rising, five, six, seven, and it's. abundantly clear that Mike's not going. to get up, and I'm thinking, "Oh my god, what am I going to say about this?" The.

very first live fight I ever attended. was the biggest upset in boxing history. And now here in front of me, 12, 14 ft. away, is the result that's going to. supplant that as the biggest upset in. boxing history. Wow. Oh, so what do I say? And I've told this story many times. If. you've heard it, I apologize for. repeating. But I was developing a golf. relationship with the greatest actor of. my generation, Jack Nicholson, who.

became a close friend and later served. my career, but that's another story. And. I had asked Jack on the golf course. about 2 or 3 weeks before Tokyo said, "Jack, when you're going to the set to. deliver the fulcrum line in the movie, when you're going to the set to do the. one thing that everybody in the audience. is going to remember, when you're. getting ready to go deliver, you can't. handle the truth. What is it you have on your mind? What's.

your mantra?" And he said, "Lamp, same. thing I've been saying to myself ever. since I first went to acting class. Don't overact.". So, I'm in Tokyo. The count reaches four. or five and I hear in the back of my. mind Jack's voice, don't overact. And. that call became, Mike Tyson has been. knocked out. in about that tone of. voice. I wanted to make it as matterof. fact as possible.

because there was nothing I could do to. elevate it by screaming or shouting or. delivering any kind of window dressing. etc. It was what it was. Right. Mike Tyson has been knocked out. That was that. I remember that. Yeah. Now that you said. it, I remember that. Wow. Well, thank you. I appreciate because you remember so it. was energetic but matter of fact. Well, there it is. Come on.

Come on. He's He It's over. It's over. Mike Tyson has been knocked out. All right. So, I did shout a little bit. Yeah, I did shout it a little bit. All. right. I give myself too much credit for. the matter of fact. But that of course. was that's my younger voice. It was a. little bit higher. You know, that was what a. Octavio Moran was the name of the. referee. I just remember Buster Douglas. winning that fight thinking, man, what. what happens to him now? Now he's. Well, what happens to him, of course, is.

that he goes on a celebration rampage. He puts on, oh, I don't know, 40, 50. pounds, something like that. He tries to. train them off, but not effectively. enough. He goes into the ring against. Holyfield, and Holyfield delivers one. left hook, one perfect counter left hook in the. first round, and we're out of there. Yeah, that's what it was. Was it was a. left hook? I thought it was a right. hand. Might have been a right hand. I don't remember. I could be wrong. See. if you can find it. Might have been a right hand. Well, they'll find it. Yeah, Jamie will find it. But uh yeah,

he just never reached those heights. again. That was it. He just never. I mean Yeah. I mean, also like the all. the. money food. Food. He got real fat. He was an addictive eater. Here it is. Okay. Let's see. Right. Right hand. You're right. Yeah. Then there were then there was a left. hook following, but the right the right. hand is the one that did it. I think the left hook missed. Yeah, the left hook missed. You're. right. All right. So, one for Rogan,

zero for Lampley. It's cemented in my mind because I. remember what year was that? Well, it's 1990 when Buster knocks out. Mike. Was it? Yeah. Uh, no. No. Had to be earlier than. that. Huh? No, it was it was it was 90. It was February February 10, 1990. Wow. February 10 in the United States. February 11 in Tokyo. Okay. Right. And so this is probably 91.

then. Then he. It might have been 90. Yeah. I think it I think it was later in. 1990. Yeah. I just remember, you know, when. when someone does something. extraordinary and rise to the occasion, I always root on them. I always root for. them. I'm like, "Wow, he's gonna turn. his life around. He's gonna be great.". So, now you're rooting for Buster to. beat Holyfield. Yeah. Well, and also I was a giant. Holyfield fan, too. So, it was one of. those conflicted fights. And Holyfield. to me was extraordinary because what he. did with Mackie Schillstone and his. training.

October 25, 1990. There it is. Nice. This time I was right. Yes. It was one of those things where. Holyfield was one of the first guys that. really embraced weightlifting. And uh I. remember as a a young fighter I was. always told if you lift weights it'll. slow you down. Weights weights will make. you stiff. Weights will slow you down. You should never lift weights. And so I. listened to that and I I never lifted. weights. And then um I remember watching. Holyfield train for his heavyweight. debut thinking, God, I remember I.

remember his fight with Dwight Muhammad. Kawi. Remember that fight? Incredible fight. Like that was when he. was a cruiserweight and I was thinking. how is this guy going to go up to. heavyweight? How is this going to work? And then. strong mind. Oh, very strong mind. Unquestionably. You want to see Evander do something, tell him he can't do it. Oh, for sure. Yeah. But also one of the. first applications of real modern. science in regards to strength and. conditioning. Y. what Mackie Schillstone was doing was.

like very revolutionary. and to see him. do all these crazy strength and cardio. routines and and putting all that mass. on and seeing all the doubters and. naysayers. So, which other fighter looked at that. and realized who Mackie was? Bernard Hopkins, right? Genius. He worked with quite a few fighters, didn't he, Mackey? I believe Mackey worked with quite a few. fighters after that whole quite a few. fighters. Everybody saw like that the results were. there. So, yeah, everybody kind of. changed their opinion on that. Did he work with any MMA guys?

I don't know. I don't probably there's. probably a few. It makes sense. Yeah. I mean MMA guys are leg I mean. this is with MMA you have the grappling. aspect of it. With without strength and. conditioning you really can't compete. It's not really possible at this day and. age. Everyone uses strength and. conditioning. There's very few fighters. that just train using skill. Just just. train skills like George George St. Pierre did that for a certain period of. his career. I wonder if there's anybody. left in boxing who who trains just using. the gym skills. There were a lot of them.

when I was first involved in the sport. who would never have touched a weight. You know, they they subscribed totally. to the notion that that was negative, right? And it the worst. I mean, they. definitely did calisthenics, but that. was it. It was just body weight. exercises, you know. Um, which brings us. to Crawford, which I think is really. interesting. The Crawford Canelo fight. Beyond interesting. Fascinating. Fascinating. Cuz how does Crawford. compete with that size? And you know, we we have to recognize,

okay, well, when Canelo fought Floyd, it. was 152 pounds, right? So, he had. dropped down, which was a struggle for. him, which is why Floyd was so brilliant. in getting him to go down to 152 cuz he. knew he would be drained. 52 or 54. Well, the weight class, I believe, was. 54, but I believe the clause in the. contract for that fight was that he get. down to 52. You're ahead of me. Let's see if that's true. Find out. find. out if that's true. I'm pretty sure that. that's true that they had a fight at one. point. I love factchecking on the fly. Yeah, it's interesting. Um that was a.

struggle. The 54 was a struggle. Now. Canelo goes all the way up to 68 and. then even to 75 and now back down to 68. Whereas Crawford is leapfrogging. He's. going he goes to super middle. 47 to 54 and now to 68. And the Madrav fight in 54 is iffy. difficult fight. Yeah, difficult fight. 152. 52. You were right. Joe Rogan scores again. Yeah, I have a goofy memory. It's It. works a lot of the time, but sometimes.

not. Sometimes Sometimes it's like. I don't think you could do this podcast. without having a spectacular memory. Sometimes it's super accurate and. sometimes it's just terrible. I don't. understand why, but um but certain. things I do remember. And I do remember. it because of the weight cutting thing. cuz I remember thinking like what a. brilliant move to get him to do that the. same thing that Javvante Davis did with. uh Ryan Garcia. Yes. Like you can't. rehydrate, right? Like which is like. no rehydration club. Sucker bet. That's such a sucker bet.

You're going to lo but it's like the. same thing with Pacquiao taking the. fight when it's. Don't you think some of that is Tank. reading Ryan's personality and playing. him a little bit? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're [ __ ] with him. Yeah. You're giving him other things. Tank is a brilliant con artist. Oh, he's so good. He's so good. And boy, the Lamont Roach. fight. Oo. Well, that was a knockdown. Oo, 100% was a knockdown. And that's a you have to call a. knockown. Dramatic mistake by the referee.

Without that, you have a decision. victory for Roach and he's a superstar. Now you have this [ __ ] draw that they. have to fight again. But now Javvante. knows what's coming. They had fought in. the amateurs. Correct. They both have. knowledge now. You know, Roach knows. that his counter punching can be. effective against Tank and Tank knows. that he has to make an adjustment if. he's going to land a power shot. Well, it's also Tank is another guy that. has experienced all the trappings of. fame. All the success and the money and,

you know, all the jewelry and all the. craziness and the ladies and all. and Roach hasn't. And Roach has not. And Roach is a hungry. [ __ ] who can really fight. Yeah, he can really fight and he should have. got his flowers after that fight. And. you know, a lot of the boxing people. recognize like that was that was a. knockdown. But forever in the history. books, it's not a knockdown. When you. take a punch to the face and then you. take a knee, that is a [ __ ]. knockdown. Period. End of story. I don't. care if you got your hair [ __ ] perm.

stuffed. It's like a literary idiosyncrasy. Okay? And both of our sports, boxing and MMA, are littered throughout their history. with these things that are egregiously. unfair at the moment, but also prompt us. to remember the fight and and remember. both fighters. If if you're a fighter. who has been victimized by a severe. injustice in one of your fights, the. audience is going to remember you. sympathetically. and be more interested in your next.

fight. So this so this is an. entertainment enterprise and anything. that contributes to your legend is. ultimately going to pay you back. somewhere down the road. Yes. Yes, that's true. There there's. definitely something to that. And then. so Lamont will have a lot of fans on his. side going to that. Oh, big time. Yeah. In fact, I would put. the fight in DC. Uh although I I don't. think Tank would want to do that. Is that fight scheduled?

Not to my knowledge. Um, not to my awareness. Jervante Davis. I'm totally focused on Canelo Alvarez. and uh Terren Crawford at this. particular moment. Are you calling that fight? No. All right. At least wait a minute. Let Let me say I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. There was a there was a. news conference in New York yesterday. and they announced that Max Kellerman is. a part of the broadcast team. Okay. So, so that's only one person they've. announced. This is. obviously I'd love to call the fight, but I don't know yet. August 16th. scheduled. scheduled for August 16 in Las Vegas.

Wow. Boy, I might go to that. I might go to that. Maybe I'll go with you. Maybe we should. That would be fun. Hey, we're getting along really well. here, aren't we? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, I enjoy the conversation. It would. be fun to go sit at a live fight, wouldn't it? Oh, no. Was that a Is that a UFC. weekend? God damn it. Let me check real. quick because it might be. Yep. [ __ ]. UFC in Chicago. All right. All right. I'll call you later that. night and let you know.

I will watch it. I will have it on my. phone. I'll I'll set my phone up and. have it there while the fight's going. on. Just in case. All right. Looking forward to it. So, who do you like in Canelo versus. Crawford? Well, I'm a giant Crawford fan because I. think he's the best switch hitter since. Marvin Agler. I'm a giant Crawford fan because I. called his coming out fight against. Bradus Prescott and then various other. stepping stones throughout his career. I. also think he's one of those guys that. if you tell him he can't do something, he wants to show you in shock. Thousand%. Absolutely right. I also think Canelo is slowing down and.

Canelo is a more of a one-punch fighter. now than the combination fighter he was. when he was younger. We'll see. Not not yet ready to. subscribe totally to that because again, you're talking about somebody who is. stubborn, but who wants to prove. everything he can prove. 100%. I agree with that, too. But I. think there's a there's a like in boxing. and certainly in MMA, there's a certain. amount of years where a fighter can keep.

the RPMs up and you know when you're in. the red line and I there's there's some. people subscribe to the idea of nine. years. There's nine years is the most. that a elite fighter in MMA has. performed at their prime. I think that's. a [ __ ] number because I think it's. entirely dependent upon lifestyle, nutrition, discipline, physical. attributes. There's a lot of factors. George Foreman won the heavyweight. championship of the world in boxing at. age 45. True. But he took 10 years off. Yes. So eight years off. So you have to.

like factor in. But were the 10 years off good or bad? Did they dull his reflexes or did they. actually allow his body to recover in. such a way that I mean you could debate. that all night? All night. And George is biologically. very unusual. I mean, he had canned hams. for fists. They were gigantic fists. and intellectually unusual as we. discussed before. Yes. And boy, you know, one of my favorite. all-time heavyweight wars was him and. Ron Lyall. That was one of his all-time favorite. heavyweight wars, you know. Yeah. He he.

loved he loved to reminisce about the. Lyall fight, you know. Oh, that fight was crazy. Every fighter loves drama and they love. having been a part of drama. So George. loved that. That was an insane fight. Insane. All. the knockdowns. Both guys rocked and. hurt. Yep. And Ron Ly, another one of those guys. just kind of lost in the the history. books. You know, people sort of forgot. except for that fight. You know, there's. a few of those guys that like people. just kind of have forgotten. They attached them to one fight. Yeah.

Because they didn't ever have that. shining moment again in their career. Yeah. What a cruel game. What a cruel. game. You know, Ali Ali and Cleveland Williams. Sure. Same thing. Right. Right. Cleveland Williams is a. murderer. He was nasty knockout puncher. Absolutely. But Ali just boxed his face off and put. him away. That's exactly right. Big cat. That that was the one that. caused a lot of people to realize, oh, Cash's Clay is a really legitimate, meaningful talent. Yeah. You know.

Yes. Yeah. And that's on the way to the first list. of fight. Mhm. Yeah. Special. It was a special. fight. The first Liston fight was crazy. It was crazy. And also the crazy thing. was there was something probably on. Liston's gloves, right? It got in Cash's. gloves. There was unquestionably something on. Liston's gloves. And Cases at one point. asked Dundee to cut his gloves off. Mhm. That's right. That's right. Because he was blinded. Yeah. So I think it's the fifth round where he.

ran and and had to stay away because he. was waiting for his eyes to clear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then by the seventh round, he. knocks Liston down. Yeah. And Liston effectively quits. What a dirty business to put something. on your gloves to get in someone's eyes. when you punch them. So crazy. What a dirty business to load someone's. gloves with what amounts to cement and. send them in to fight Miguel Cotto in a. pay-per-view in Las Vegas. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. They they put.

holes in the gloves, removed some of the. stuffing and watered it down. And then. he also did something to his hand wraps. as well. Right. He was hitting Cotto with bricks. Yeah, that's all I know for sure. And and he. and he could have killed him. You know, he Cotto went through a life-threatening. experience. And I always, you know, don't fall in love with a fighter. You. could not know Miguel without falling in. love with him. He was a wonderful, sweet, uh, great person. So, I was very very um.

deeply disturbed and upset and. sentimental calling that fight that. night um not because I knew that. Margarito's gloves were loaded. I I. didn't I just knew that I knew that. Miguel was getting beat. We didn't know. until the Shane Mosley fight. That's. exactly right. Right. Shane Mosley's. And I remember, you know, walking away. from Vegas with a bad feeling after the. Cotto fight. How could that happen to. Miguel, etc., etc. And then it's I don't. know several weeks later, maybe three. months later when we're in LA getting.

ready for um the Mosley versus uh uh. Margarito fight and I hear in my headset. there's a disturbance in Margarito's. dressing room. They're making him take. his gloves off and da da da da. And at that moment it all comes. together. Yeah, that was a hand wrap thing. I'm. conflating these two stories in my mind. with Louis Resto and uh Billy Collins. plaster of Paris. Yes. That so Lou Resto was with Panama.

Lewis. Yes. Panama Lewis who famously gave that. drink to Aaron Prior. Yes. Yes. Get me the one that I fixed. And. then Aaron Prior goes out and knocks out. Alexis Arguo which is alleged to have. been cocaine. A lot of people think it. was co because Aaron then went to. famously have a cocaine problem, right? Um but the Louis resto. I don't see how cocaine could help you. in a fight. I really. It's a stimulant. Huh. It's a stimulant. Yeah, I guess you're right. It's a.

stimulant. Yeah. If you're exhausted and all a. sudden you get a bump and you're fired. up and you go out there and [ __ ] him up, it could help you. Certainly if you're. tired. Yeah, 100% it would help. I mean, come on. I've never done. cocaine, but I'm just guessing. It ruins a lot of other things. That's. all. Oh yeah, it does. But in that moment, I. guess, you know, in that moment, especially if you're a person who. embibes and you, you know, you've had a. history of cocaine and then, you know, what does it do? It boosts up confidence. and it's a stimulant, I would imago. fight. Woo!

Phenomenal. Oh my goodness. Phenomenal. And he's, you know, again, another great person. Uh, another really. I didn't know Aaron all that well, but. Alexis was lovable in every way. Wasn't he murdered? He was a politician. in Nicaragua, right? Does he was he. murdered? Yeah. Yeah. Nicaragua. Yeah man. The So I was conflating those. the the So with Margarito, I think it. was just the wraps where they had put. plaster Paris in his wraps, but Billy.

Collins Jr. And Louis Resto was a fight. where Billy Collins was this upand. cominging fighter and he fought Louis. Resto and Louis Resto was like breaking. his face open with every punch and he. and there are photos that you can find. on the web of Collins that show that. Yes. And so Resto then when the fight. was over, Billy Collins dad grabs. Resto's gloves and realized there's no. padding in the gloves. Right. And then Billy Collins's career is over. and he winds up drinking himself to.

death. actually drive drove into a tree. Yeah. So, we don't know whether that was. suicide or not. We don't know. No, baby. You know, the. guys he couldn't see after that fight. It's a great story. Eyes were [ __ ]. I hope everybody who is listening to. this will go to the web and pick up some. of these things because you are touching. on a lot of the most meaningful and. poignant stories. Yeah, there's the. photo right there of Billy and there's. his dad in the photo. Crazy. just crazy. I mean, his vision.

was [ __ ] for the rest of his life, for. as long as he lived after that. Never. fought again. And no, and everyone was. so confused because they couldn't. believe that this guy Louis Resto was. not known as being this big puncher, was. just busting him up with every shot he. landed. It was confusing. It's a dirty business, man. And Panama. Lewis was he did some corner work with. Mike Tyson as well. remember like later. in Mike's career when everything was. kind of chaotic and he had all those.

whackados in his corner, Panama Lewis. was like on the sidelines there but. wasn't able to be officially a part of. it because he was still banned. Well, you know, Mike by late in his career had. a very clear understanding of his. vulnerabilities. Now, Mike was a boxing. scientist and he knew better than. anybody that styles make fights and that. there were certain stylistic matchups. which for him would be difficult. He had.

spent a week training with Lennox Lewis. when they were 14 years old. Um cuz Lewis's Arie Beam, his amateur. trainer, had brought Lennox from the. Toronto area to Canesto, I mean not to. Kenesto, but to upstate New York. um to. the Catskills and uh Mike and Lennox. spent much of a week, maybe all of a. week watching old black and white bite. films on the wall, sleeping in the same. room, training and sometimes sparring.

every day. Wow. And so Mike had known Lennox for a long, long time uh by the time they met June. 8, 2002 in uh Memphis. And um. I don't I don't know that he would. subscribe exactly to me saying he knew. what was coming, but I I think he had a. pretty good idea. And you'll recall that. at the first. news conference, he ran across the stage. and bit Lennox on the leg.

Yeah, he went crazy. Lennox claimed that he drew blood. through through the pants leg. And um. and my interpretation of that at the. time was he wants to get the fight. canled. He wants to get this fight wiped away. Well, you got to think this is also 12. years after the Buster Douglas loss. Yes. Which is a long time in boxing. Long time. And and a lot of trials and. tribulation. Prison. Yep. You know, you I don't I mean, you might.

maybe you get a little chance to train. in prison, but No, not the way you train in a boxing gym. No. So, well, you know, so he paid a lot of prices for a lot of. experiences. There it is. I didn't know this happened. Lennox throws a right hand. I'm not sure. he landed that right hand. Might have broken his hand if he'd. landed it on Tyson's jaw. Crazy. That's the hard part about bare knuckles. boxing, right? Oh, yeah. They break their hands all the. time. You know why? You know why gloves.

emerged? Gloves emerged because John El. Sullivan got tired of breaking his. hands. Really? Yeah. He was a big proponent of behind. the scenes of going to gloves. And then. of course in the first gloved prize. fighting heavyweight championship fight, he loses to Corbett. Ah. because Corbett was a boxing scientist. and back then they probably had terrible. medical treatment for broken hands. Like. what did they do? I don't know. But. I mean they didn't have the kind of.

surgery that they had. Certainly not the sophisticated. surgeries that take place now. Yeah. if there were any surgeries at. all. Yeah, they probably. He got tired of breaking his hands. Along comes this idea, this phenomenon. of gloves. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do. that. Wow. And then he loses to Corbett. Wow. I was uh watching a piece yesterday. about uh it was a YouTube video on Sugar. Ray Robinson and his training and the. the type of training that Sugar Ray. would do and how.

phenomenal his dedication was. And if. you think about a guy that like when he. had his first loss, how many fights had. he won? 120. You know how crazy that is? Yeah. Stop. and think. I sort of have a sense of it. Yeah. Stop and think about how insane that is. Did you ever drink in Jimmy Glenn's bar. in New York? No. Jimmy's Corner? Oh, that's too bad. Jimmy Glenn was a really great. well-known corner man who worked with.

Robinson, worked with Joe Lewis, worked. with a lot of really bigname fighters. And he had a bar on 44th between 6th and. 7th. It's the still to this day, I think. his son is running it now. I hope he. still is. Uh the ultimate boxing bar. The photographs on the wall, the. atmosphere. Oh, there we are. We're in a. cool little. We're in Jimmy's Corner. Yeah. 24th. between sixth and seventh. There's gone. There's Jimmy down to the left. Is it still there or is it gone? Uh the bar I think is still there.

Jimmy's gone. Uh what a wonderful. wonderful loving man. Um he was like an. uncle to me. Uh because I spent so much. time in the bar and just his his stories. were fantastic because of the people. with whom he worked. Wow. That's awesome. You got to go sometime. I would love to. I'd love to go. sometime. Sugar Ray Robinson was one of. the first guys also that showed how. effective being a great dancer. My mother's favorite fighter really. And.

yeah, and I told you that the first. fight she ever sat me down to watch was. Sugar A Robinson versus Bo, right? And the last thing she said before she. left the room and left me in front of a. little TV set on a TV dinner tray was, uh, Sugar A Robinson's my favorite. fighter because he dances while he. fights. Wow. And he did. And he did. He did. He uh you know there. was the the thing about his training you. know this uh video that I was watching. was so interesting to watch someone.

who's really just ahead of the curve. like above everybody like no one really. understood how to move like that and. then of course cashes Clay his favorite. fighter Sugar A Robinson. 100%. so he's like a heavyweight version of. Sugar Ray Robinson. so what's the greatest asset for any. fighter is it his punching powers his. hand speed is his footwork or Is it his. intelligence? It's the mind. It's the mind. But. it's the willingness to accept what you. need to accept and to see what you can.

do. That's what makes for great fighters. And also the ability to objectively. analyze your skills and recognize where. you need to advance and what you need to. do differently. because you have a trainer to help you. with that. Yes. Yeah. But you don't have coaches per se, the way you do in organized team sports. and stuff like that. At the end of the. day, you're the one. we got to figure. this out, you know, and you can have an idea of what's. effective, but until you see someone. come along and do something totally. different, you like that's the where the.

innovators come in, where the real. groundbreakers come in. Like I bet. before Sugar Robinson, nobody like you, you had Willie Pep, right? Well, you've mentioned what I think of. as the modern supreme innovator earlier. Yeah. Yeah. He recreated, you know, our approach to the sport. Well, you see a lot of that now in MMA. You see a lot of footwork and movement. and switching stances. It's like a. fighter that can't switch stances in MMA.

is kind of archaic because you. I think we'll reach that point in boxing. too, right? I think eventually as as time goes by. Well, Haggler was an example of one of. the first guys to be a switch hitter. that people sort of dismissed. So you. just you earlier we talked about Canelo. versus Crawford. Yes. Do you think Terren Crawford can beat. Canelo Alvarez? Yeah, I think he can win. Okay. I don't know if he's going to win, but I. think he can win. He's going to have to He's going to have. to box a brilliant fight.

Okay. What kind of a fight? I'm I'm. going to get to that. I asked the great. Larry Merchant, 90 94 years old, living on Ocean Boulevard in Santa. Monica, looking out at the ocean, reflecting on all the amazing things he. did. And I asked Larry, I said, "Do you. think Terrence Crawford has a beat has a. chance to beat Canelo Alvarez?" And. Larry said, "Jim, did Ray Leonard get an official decision. victory over marvelous Marvin Haggler?".

And I said, "Yes, he did." He said, 'Well, if Ray Leonard could beat. Marvelous Marvin Haggler, then Terrence. Crawford can beat Canelo Alvarez. And I said, why do you say that? He. said, same equation. Get in, get out. Get in, get out over and over and over. He's got to figure the angles and the. approaches that will allow him to step. in, land to the body or occasionally. upstairs, and then get out. before he's facing any damage.

Right. That's what Ry did so effectively. against Haggler. And it frustrated. Haggler. Uh, and the more you frustrate. the opponent, the better off you are. Yeah. Canelo has such unique skills. And. one of the weird things that he does. that very few people since Rocky. Marciano does is he punches your arms. Yes. He brutalizes your arms. He's another brilliant guy. He has the. greatest punch resistance in the sport. You know, we talked about it earlier. one knockout in the whole career and it. wasn't a knockdown and it wasn't really.

a knockdown in in my uh personal view. Um so because it didn't touch the. canvas, he's never been on the canvas. and and we call it chin and I think that. we kind of missed the point by calling. it chin because I used to be Canelo's. neighbor in Delmare, California. Used to. run into Chepo, his senior trainer at. the grocery store. I'd look into the. cart and say, "Oh, he's he's eating. tuna." And he said, "Yes." And and he's. eating chicken. Da da da. And um and so.

I also used to go down the hill from my. house off of Via Debay in uh Delmare and. watch him train at the equestrian center. where he would go to the equestrian. center in the morning and do two and a. half hours of hunter jumper riding. before going to his gym in the afternoon. to do three and a half hours of boxing. training. Hunter jumper riding. What is that? Hunter jumper is where you you go over.

jumps and you uh with a horse. Yeah. On the horse. Yeah. Why the [ __ ] would you do that when. you're training for a fight? What if the. horse? Because he was he was riding horses. since he was a little kid. He was. skilled enough to do it. You controlled. the height of the jumps. You say set the. jumps at 36 in or 40 in. You know what. the horse can do. It's all about staying. on the horse. And uh and I asked him, you know, how can you do that? And he. said, "Everything I do in boxing is.

upper body and everything I do on the. horse is lower body." And on on that. basis, I am the one who theorizes that the. reason you can't knock him down is not. because of his chin. It's because of his. legs, his base. You can't get him off balance. He's too. strong from the waist down. And you. know, if other fighters would pay. attention to what Canelo does, they. might go do a little horseback riding. I wasn't even aware of that until you.

brought that up. That's ext that's. incredible. There he is with his horses. Wow. That completely makes sense if you think. about it. Squeezing with the lower legs, the core strength. 100% correct. The balance. The balance. Exactly. The timing. All of. it. Yeah. I I trained Hunter Jumper for. a couple of years in the really. early 90s trying to please a wife who. was a horse freak. Okay.

And I I had a really great trainer uh at. uh the stables over next to Griffith. Park in Los Angeles. Fabulous trainer. named Jonathan Seresi. Hey John, if you. hear me. Um, and uh, I trained for I. don't know, I want to say 3/4 of a year. uh, riding hunter jumper. And I got to. the point where I was jumping 36 38 in. jumps and I was riding quality horses.

and I was doing pretty well. And one day. after my training session, I was in the. stall combing the horse down, brushing. to do the things, the busy work that. you're supposed to do to be a part of. it. And Jonathan came in and said, "How. do you feel about your riding?" I said, "I think I'm doing pretty well, don't. you?" He said, "I think you're doing. really well." He said, "But I think that. this would probably be a great day for. you to quit." I said, "Quit? What are.

you talking about? you just said, "I'm. doing pretty well." He said, "Well, you're doing pretty well because you. love to do the fun stuff. You love the. jumping and you love the riding around. the ring fast, etc., etc., but you don't. want to do the busy work. You don't want. to do um what we call sitting trot and. the other things that help you to build. your awareness and your command uh of of. what you do. And the result is that.

you're getting closer and closer to the. stage at which something negative is. going to happen. And the first time. something negative happens, you're not. going to be able to respond to it. So, I. think today would be a great day for you. to quit. Whoa. Wild, right? Did you listen to him? I quit. I went I went home and thought about it. and I thought he's right. But wouldn't positive, constructive. advice being if you enjoy this, there's. some other stuff that you need to do. Well, he I mean he did say, "Look, I'm.

perfectly happy to keep training you if. you will come and do the busy work that. I need you to do to 20 to 30 minutes. before you go out and and jump. But if. you just want to come here, sit on the. saddle, and run and jump, you're asking. for trouble, and I'm not going to be. part of it.". Wow. Because of course, if you fall off, and. I saw this one a couple times, if you. fall off, the horse can stomp you. You get a hoof on the chest or a hoof on. the neck. Oh, and you know, you're in the hospital and.

you're in big trouble. if you're lucky. I saw it happen to a woman in the ring. A really good rider. So, at the end of the day, you can't do. that. Yeah. There he is. Look at Canelo. Wow. Now, that is that's that's a skill he. has carried since his early childhood. That's crazy. You can't knock him down. That makes so. much sense. Also, he's got a square. head. Yeah, he's got and and it's not a small.

head, but he's he's also got a brilliant mind. Oh, clearly. Give credit where credit is, due. No doubt. No doubt. I mean, the just the. the evolution in the three fights with. Triple G. Triple G was one of my. all-time f. If you can fight Triple G and never be. badly hurt, right, that's a great point. That's astonishing. Triple G never badly. hurt him. Yeah. And he was destroying everybody else you. put in his pack. Everybody. Yeah. Everybody. One of the heaviest punchers I ever saw.

And he would do weird stuff like throw a. a a left hook over the top and hit the. top of your head. He would throw a left. hook like that. Like a looping over. overhand, which by the way is very much like the. shot that Douglas landed against Tyson. in the 10th round over the top with a. left hand. Yeah. But but the way Triple G would do. it, it would be going down on you. down. on you. It's weird. It was a weird. punch. And he would hit you in the. forehead, which is like or the temple, which is where a lot of people lose. their equilibrium.

Well, whatever they do in Kazakhstan, it. might be different from what they do in. the United States. No, he was special. He was very special. Another guy we we got to talk about, Julio Cesar Chavez, who's also one of my. all-time favorites. Julio Cesar Chavez. in his prime. He would just. systematically break people down. And. the volume like constant constant attack. and volume. His volume volume was the. real key. because his power shots did not look. like hellacious power shots. Okay. His.

left hook didn't look all that. devastating. It wasn't a one punch guy, but it would hurt you. You know, over. time he would break you down. Taylor fight. And then we go to the Taylor fight. What is it? Two seconds before the final. bell that the fight gets stopped. Yes. Larry Hazard stops it and everybody. wants to kill. Not Larry Hazard. It wasn't. No, it was Richard Steel. That's right. Richard Steel. That's right. Okay. So, you corrected me on one. earlier and now I got you. It was That's. right. That was Richard Steel. And And. And he took a tremendous amount of grief.

for that. And I think he deserved the grief. I. thought it was a very bad stoppage. You. had a an unbeaten American Olympic star. who's on the verge of his career. definfining victory. There's no question. at this moment that he has won the. fight. When he stands up and Steel is. counting, watch how he gets distracted. when Lud Duba steps up on the ring apron. and when he looks away from Steel, Steel. uses that as his pretext to stop the. fight with two seconds left. All right.

giving Chavez a victory that he did not. deserve. Right. If if Duva had not stepped up on the. apron and and distracted Meldrick in. such a way that Meldrich looked away. from Steel, then I think that Steel would have. caught a lot more heat and wouldn't have. had any valid pretext for stopping the. fight. What if that had been in the eighth. round? Would you be okay with it?

Fight goes on. No, I I mean I I Well, if. that had been the eighth round, no, I. still wouldn't be okay. But it's the. first knockdown. It's not as if he. knocked him down three or four times, right? Meltrick could won the fight. Yeah. No, it's all It's interesting, right? The subjective calls of stoppages. by referees. Yeah. Things get very. It's one of the toughest things. Good. stoppage, bad stoppage, etc., etc. It's. one of the toughest things. and and I. disciplined myself to be very very. careful about ever um criticizing a.

referee in the moment. I'm not sure that. I criticized Richard that night. But. I'll tell you one thing, this is in some. ways part of the proof of the pudding. Las Vegas boxing fans and Las Vegas. boxing crowds are knowledgeable, right? They've seen more of the sport than. other people. They know what they're. watching. Richard was never again. introduced in Las Vegas before a fight. without the crowd booing. Wow. He was subjected to booze every time he.

was introduced. Wow. Which shows you that a majority of the. fans in that particular boxing capital. agree with me. that it was a bad stoppage. Imagine what that did to his psyche. Like every time you go out there, you. have the whole crowd. I think he wound. up committing suicide. Steel. Yes, those booze might have had something to. do with that. That's what I was gonna say. Did Richard. Steel commit suicide? I think he did. That's a great fact to check because I. don't know. I think he did.

And you got to imagine the the kind of. depression that would come just knowing. that you altered the course of boxing. history. with that one momentary decision. Yes. Yes. Yeah. you know. So, so, so Chavez, Chavez is avenged in certain ways. De. Laoya beat him twice. Uh, here's one where he didn't where he won, but he shouldn't have won. Pernell. Whitaker. Yeah, that's right. Who's another genius?

Yes. One of one of the greatest defensive. boxers of all time. Like. certainly in the top. Certainly in the. top five. Yes. Genius. And I remember that. decision being called and I was like, "What the [ __ ] is this? That that one. was nuts.". Oscar was Oscar, you know, and and he. had a glamour image that was difficult. to deal with at that time, you know. So, uh, that kind of that kind of thing was. part of the reason that my dear friend.

Fernando Vargas was in some ways jealous. of Oscar. You know, what other fighter. would get a decision over Pernell. Whitaker in that circumstance? But. wasn't it Chavez? Didn't Chavez have a. decision win over Pernell Whitaker as. well? Sure. That's that's the one that I'm talking. about. That's the one that you're talking. about. I thought you were talking about. Delo Hoya versus. So, is that one similar as well? I I. don't really recall that one. Aster gets a decision win over Whitaker. on a night when Larry and a lot of other. experts thought that Whitaker deserved. the decision. Well, Whitaker was like underappreciated.

because it was so defensively brilliant. Well, sure. I mean, knocked a lot of. guys out. Great defenders never get as. much credit as the I mean know Hopkins, right? Hopkins had to become a media star late. in his career to really get credit for. what he had done. Yeah. When you look back at your career and. all the fights that you called. and and think about the beginnings and. think about when they were trying to. just get you out of the business and by. giving you boxing like it's almost like.

it's a very much a story book tale. Oh yeah, it really is. But but the part. of the reason for using it happened as. the title of the book is that there are. so many circumstances in my career which. are like that counterintuitive. Somebody wanted to do something with me. that turns in the other direction etc. etc. That was not the first time that. that that kind of thing had happened to.

me. the, you know, my whole career. begins when I win a talent hunt in 1974. to become one of the first two people. ever to stand on the sideline of a. college football game with a camera and. a microphone. How do you What is a talent hunt? How. does that work? So, first of all, you read something. This emerges from the Munich massacre. All right. This emerges from the 9 10 11. days of captivity uh of the American. athletes, excuse me, the Israeli. athletes by Black September terrorists.

in Munich. And during that period of. time, ABC is of course the uh broadcast. uh organizer for the United States. And. during that time, two reporters, Howard. Coell and Peter Jennings are pushing the. control room. How can we get more. information? How can we get sound out of. the dorm room? How can we get pictures. from some adjoining building through the. windows, etc., etc. And in trying to.

service the needs of those two. reporters, Jennings and Coell, ABC. Sports learned things about radio. frequency cameras and microphones, wireless cameras and microphones that. they had not known before. So they came. back to New York and they convened a. meeting. This is after the 72 Olympics. They convened a meeting among the sports. division, the news division, and the. engineering division to figure out,

okay, now that we know these things, now. that we've learned what we learned in. Munich, what can we do with it? And one. of the first ideas that gets adopted is. we can put a reporter on the sideline of. a football game. So in 19 in 1974, Run Arlage's chief administrative. assistant, a guy named Dick Eversol, who. later became a constant and meaningful. factor in my career, Dick Eversol takes. two lieutenants out to conduct a search.

at 16 different college campuses, and. they talk to a total of 432. college age or extremely close to. college age candidates for this job. I am at first harvested out because I'm. number 34 out of 36 on a 97 degree day. in Birmingham, Alabama. I have driven. overnight from Chapel Hill to get there. I'm wearing my best discount plaid suit.

I look ridiculous in a pair of uh uh. shoes I bought with two and a half inch. heels so they'll make me look taller. And and I go into the room and have the. screening interview. And the screening. interview is 12 minutes. And before and. when we all have to draw numbers out of. a fishbowl to determine in what order. the interviews are going to take place. And I'm number 34 out of 36. So, I know. I'm going to have to sit around in the. Parliament Parliament House Hotel lobby.

for hours in Birmingham waiting to go. in. And by the time I go in, I'm. grinding my teeth. Um, and uh the first. thing one of the other guys in the room, Terry Jastro, says to me is, "What do. you think of our our idea here? What do. you think of what we're trying to do?". And I couldn't resist. I said, "I think. it's the biggest croc of crap I ever. heard in my life." And he said, 'What do. you mean?' I said, 'Well, you tell us. that you're going around the country to.

interview 432 people for 8 to 10 minutes. each, and on that basis, you're going to. choose what you describe as the face and. voice of the American college student. He said, "Yeah." I said, "Errest my. case. I think this is ridiculous load of. crap, and I'm embarrassed that I drove. from Chapel Hill overnight to be a part. of this. Later, much later, I was shown the. evaluation form on which Eversol had.

written, "Arogant, abrasive, alienated, antagonistic.". When I was finally chosen as one of the. two people that became known in the. college football production truck as the. poor. Every time I would [ __ ] about. something, every time I would get. upstreperous about something and raise. my voice a little bit. There it is, the. four A's. Arrogant, abrasive, alienated, antagonistic. But you know, the bottom. line was through a long and highly.

unusual process. I was the person who. was chosen. Now, what was ridiculous. about it? The most ridiculous thing. about it, which I've never really. revealed until this year, the book media. appearances, this the most prominent. media appearance with your 19 million uh. followers, was that um Run Arch was. still the dictatorial and canonized.

president of ABC Sports. And I when I. was. under 11 years old, maybe 10 or 11, 12, living in Hendersonville, North. Carolina, had asked my mother while. watching Wide World of Sports one day, is this guy, Run Arlage, is he related. to the Arges who live around the corner. from us? Yes, he's their son. So, I grew. up around the corner from Arlage's. parents. I cattied for both his mother.

and father at the Hendersonville Golf. and Country Club. And when I was finally. the person chosen, counterintuitively. because I was 25 instead of 22 and. because I had already done a lot of. sports broadcasting and this person was. supposed to be completely fresh. When I. get chosen, I um meet Run in the restroom at 1336th. Avenue in New York. And hi Ruin, I'm Jim. Lampley. Oh, great to meet you, etc., etc. And as he's going out of the.

restroom, I say, "By the way, how's your. dad?" And he turns around, quizzical. expression, says, "Why would you ask a. question like that?" I said, "Well, I. guess nobody told you because probably. nobody could have known, but I'm from. Hendersonville originally, and I've. caddy for both your mom and dad. In. fact, my mother's in the same bridge. club with your mother." the famous red. face turned white and he said, "Don't. ever tell anybody that. Never ever. reveal that to anyone." So, of course,

now it can be revealed. And. why would you want that reveal? That they had chosen out of 432. candidates, the one who grew up around. the street from his parents. No, he didn't know. Well, but yeah, he could say he didn't. know and somebody might kick back. At any rate, his his first instinct was. to say, "Don't ever tell anybody that.". A long time has passed. Rune has passed. There are sideline reporters everywhere. now. Uh so, you know, I can very easily.

reveal and let you know that they. accidentally chose the other accident. was. um they had already installed a guy from. Stanford named Don Toliffson. And they. knew that Tiffson was going to be. chosen. He was in the first batch of 16. people they talked to. His credentials. were unbelievable. And so they were dead. set in their minds on choosing Don. Toliffson all along. And um and now they. were two three weeks away from the first. game, four weeks away from the first.

game. It was August 8th and the first. game was September 7. And August 8, uh, 1974, I'm at a rented beach house in Swan. Corner, North Carolina with a friend of. mine named, uh, Buck Goldstein and his. wife. My wife, Linda, and I are there. And the phone on the wall rings. And to. this day, I don't know how Ever Soul got. that phone number because the house was. rented in the name of Buck Goldstein. So. Buck picks up the phone. Hello. Yeah,

he's right here, Jim. It's Dick Eversol. I, huh? What is this? Hello. And Dick. says, 'You know, I'm so glad I found. you. We are getting ready to announce. the college age reporter thing, and we. think we've settled settled on one. person, but uh Rune is a little. concerned about putting on the air. somebody who has never had any on air. experience at all. And within that. discussion, that brought us back to you.

Would you be willing to go to. Birmingham, Alabama and do a a film in. those days 16 millimeter film do a film. audition for us? And I said, "What do. you want me to do in Birmingham?" He. said, "Well, there's a quarterback there. named George Myra. He's now with the. Birmingham Americans of I think it was. the World Football League. Um, he's. already been busted out of the NFL, the AFL,

um, Canada. This is his last shot as a. Pro Football quarterback, and we think. it's an interesting story, and we want. you to go interview him. So, of course, they didn't know that I had watched. George Myra play all three years of his. college career at the University of. Miami. He was a huge childhood hero of. mine. I had once hitched a ride in his. very dull beige uh Ford Falcon uh going.

to pick up basketball on the campus of. the University of Miami. Um I knew more. about George Myra than probably some. members of his family did. I still had a. number 10 green and orange George Myra. jersey in my uh closet in Chapel Hill. So they they think they're putting me on. the spot here to send me to interview. George Myra and I'm going to have to do. a quick research job with no web in. those days to find out what I need to. ask this guy. And I know more about.

George Myra than people in his family. So I I go down to Birmingham. I'm. laughing about it. I do the interview. I. go through all these things in his. college career and stuff like that, his. 49ers experience and send the film off. to New York. And about a week before the. first game, I get a call and he said, "You're going to be on the sideline. You're going to be we're going to have. two college football reporters. You're. going to be on one sideline. Don. Toliffson will be uh on the other." Run. feels a lot better about this because he.

can see that you have on camera. performance skills and understand what. you're doing. Wow. What are the odds that they player? The odds are astronomical. So crazy. The odds are beyond all belief. They. could choose any story in the world they. wanted me to do as an audition. They. choose my childhood hero. It kind of almost makes you feel like. it's meant to be. Correct. Yeah, there's there's no other way to to. describe it other than this was supposed.

to happen. Yeah. Well, I think you're the best. ever. So, if that. that's how it had to play out. That's. how it had to play out. And that's Steel thing. Did he kill Did. he commit suicide? I was going to bring that up later. Oh, Jesus. I'm sorry, Richard. Somebody else committed suicide. Well, I. mean, Larry Hazard commit suicide. Richard's dead. Larry Hazard's still. around, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, Larry Hazard is a athletic. commissioner right now. York State. Mitch Halpern. Mitch Halpern. Or New Jersey. Excuse me. New Jersey, not New York. Oh, Mitch Halpurn committed suicide. Mitch Halpern committed suicide.

Oh, that's right. All right. So, what So, what is Mitch. Halpern's marker? Oh, I you know, I covered it. There was a fight in. Yeah, I covered it. It was It was one of. mine. I can't remember right off the top. of my head, but yes, there was a very controversial fight, right? Yeah. A similar type situation. Similar type thing. something that. stains your reputation going forward. My apologies to Richard Steel. I'm. sorry. Halprin is I believe H A L P R I N. R H.

A L P E R I N R. What was the big controversial fight? Can't remember right now. I saw Retalpin. referee a number of fights. You're right. He did. He did kill. himself. Yeah. Yeah. I'm. That's right. I'm connecting to it now. And as soon as. we find out exactly what the fight was, I'll remember what. That's the problem with like. the circumstances. Again, I told you my memory sucks.

sometimes. Like it's like Joe, I'm 76 years old. Okay. My wife worries about whether I'm going. to remember to put socks on in the. morning. Really? Uh oh. Gabriel Willis. Gabe Willis and. Jimmy Garcia. Oh yeah. Oh my god. So, one of the oldest dictims in the sport. is that when one fighter dies, the other. career dies, too. Gabe was absolutely never the same. Uh, and he allowed that fight to go on way.

longer than it should have. May 6th, 1995. Never forget it. Hot day outside in back. of Caesar's Palace. My wife was sitting. with Jack Nicholson. Can't resist the. name drop. uh you know there were a lot. of things going on but um. Gabe was never ever the same after that. and he uh you know Gabe went to. Colombia or Venezuela I forget exactly. where um.

for the funeral. Oh god look at this. And also Richard. Green committed suicide after the. Mancini Kim fight. Similar situation. Yeah. Similar situation with Duck Coo Kim when. he dies famously on national television. Ray Boom Boom Mancini and then that. referee ws of committing suicide as. well. It's um. you know it's a a haunting thing because. it's so intimate. You're in the ring. You're four or five feet away from these.

guys. You're watching somebody land shot. after shot after shot. You're trying to. gauge in your mind. what is fair to the guy who's taking the. beating, right? Because he could always land one big. comeback counter punch. and win the fight. And there's been so many instances over. time of guys recovering and coming back. to win the fight. Many absolutely. so many fights that could have been. stopped and if they were, who knows what. we've got would have gotten. over and over and over. So, you know, I. was always.

disciplined and restrained about. criticizing referees live because what. they do is an extremely important and. critical job. And sometimes they're the. only they're the only safety barrier. between life and death. I was just thinking of the Diego Corales. fight. Diego Corales who with that crazy. fight where he's knocked down multiple. times then comes back to win by. knockout. Arguably the greatest fight of all time.

Who was it? Who was it against? Corales versus. um name is right on the tip of my. tongue. Corales. Jose Luis Castillo. Is that not it? That might have been it. Castillo. It was it Corales Castile. That was it. Jose Luis Castillo. And that's that's. arguably the greatest fight of all time. It was a Showtime fight, by the way. I. was watching it on uh TV. Easily could have been stopped. Huh. Easily could have been stopped. 100%. And Carales comes back and wins. Yeah, exactly. And I believe he died in a motorcycle.

accident. Corales died in a motorcycle accident. Yes, he did. Yeah. After after a lot of salacious. revelations regarding his troubles with. women. So, but he was a sweet guy. You could. not know Chico without loving him. Okay? And that's true of many very violent. fighters. You couldn't know Chico. without loving him. You couldn't know. Mike in the early days without loving. him. So, um, the sport is filled with.

ironies. I'm sure MMA is exactly the. same thing. It is. It really is. Listen, I'm glad we had a chance to. talk. I really appreciate it. It was. really fun. Two hours just flew by. Great. Yeah. I think I I think I' I've had a. fantastic time with you and I really. enjoyed every moment and yes, thank you. I'm glad we had a chance to talk. and your book is available. It happened. Did you do the voice over? Please tell. me you did.

I did. Thank you. I did record the audio book. especially people people who heard the. audio book recommend it. You have to do it with you. It has to. be. Can you imagine if somebody else if. they forced somebody else? Do you know the boxing writer Tom. Howser? Yes. So, Hower's one of my. dearest friends and and a great man. Um, and Ali's primary biographer. Hower has. written a book about his mother and he. knows about my relationship with my. mother. And by the way, I read that you.

were raised by a single mother. Is that. correct? Well, I have a stepfather. Stepfather. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was raised by a double widow. who never married again. Hower has deep. and great affection for his mother. So. he wrote a book about his mother and I'm. thrilled to tell you that he called me. and said, "Would you record the audio. version of my book?". Ah. So now I am going to record when I get. back to Chapel Hill um Hower's book.

about his mother. And that's awesome. If you like hearing my book, then you'll. probably enjoy reading or hearing my. book about Hower's mother, too. Well, I'm gonna listen to your book because I. that's how I absorb most of my books. Well, I've given away a lot of it to. you. No, I don't give a [ __ ] I'm listening. to the whole damn thing. And I really. hope that Netflix chooses you for the. Canelo fight, the Canelo Crawford fight. That would be fantastic. Like I said, it. was made me so happy to hear you on the. the Madison the Times Square card.

Too bad the fights weren't uh. Yeah, that that was true. But what do. you think that is about? You know, because there's a lot of people that. have said that Turkey is spending so. much money, that he's spoiling these. guys and they're afraid to lose and that. they're fighting safe. Far be it for me to say anything about. Turkey. Okay. Yes. He. anything negative, he put me back at. ringside. All right. I'm very happy. On a personal parochial level, I am a. huge Turkey fan. Yes. I think that um more attention has to be.

paid to what real ma matchmaking is. Uh. I if you put two counter punchers in. front of each other, that's not going to. make a fire. Two attackers, guaranteed. fire, right? Uh an attacker versus a. counter puncher, that can also be really. good. Some of the greatest fights ever. have been attacker against. counterpuncher. But. it's a matchmaking issue. I believe it was. That night you had too. many instances where two counter. punchers were standing in front of each.

other and waiting for the other guy to. uh to move. I also think that Roly. Romero um very intelligently. beefed up, put on strength, and went. into the fight with uh Garcia with a. defensive frame of mind. I'm going to. take the air out of this balloon. Uh I'm. going to slow the punch rate down. I'm. going to land selectively when I want. to. Uh and I'm not going to allow him to. ever land a left hook. He did a good job. of that. He also landed that left hook of his.

own. rocked him and dropped him. And I. think that changed the the entire. Absolutely. mentally changed the fight. You know, Garcia's in there trying to. land his left hook and all of a sudden. he gets dropped by one. That's that's. got to affect your mentality. What did you think about Devin Haney's. performance because I felt like that was. an example of a guy like coming off of. the Ryan Garcia fight where he got. dropped multiple times. He needed to put on a show and he. didn't. He just looked different. Yeah. He if you go back to him versus. Lach of course there's a lot of months.

in between you know you know so we it's. not as if he's coming back two months. later and you can draw a straight line. from the mentality of of his Garcia. fight to what he's doing in the ring. that night. That doesn't happen to be. the case. Uh but it was definitely a. disappointing performance. Well, you. definitely can draw a line between a guy. getting rocked and dropped on multiple. occasions from a person that he was. supposed to beat easily, right? If you look at his boxing skill, you.

look at what he had done to Kambosus. I mean, he just boxed his face off. He. looked fantastic in that fight. But you get you get the benefit of being. able to say to yourself, if you want to, okay, he tested positive for a. performance-enhancing drug. That's the. reason he knocked me down three times. You know, if you can convince yourself. of that. The problem is once you start saying. that, people start saying, "Fuck you.". And then the booze get louder. I'm talking about saying it to yourself. I'm not I'm not talking about saying it.

publicly. You are 100% correct about. saying. no one says anything to themsself. anymore. If you say something publicly, the whole world responds now. It's not. like a guy living in 1976. This is the. different world we're living in. Tell me about it. I'm sitting here on. the Joe Rogan Experience with the. possibility that 19 million people are. talking are listening to me. I'm sure. I've made a mistake or two. Well, we both did. Yeah, it's part of. the fun. Just don't read the comments. That's the key. Jim Lampley, I.

appreciate you very much and I'm a giant. fan and I'm I'm really glad you're back. in boxing. It means a lot to me. And. your book, It Happened: A Uniquely Lucky. Life in Sports Television is available. now. Thank you, sir. I really. Forward by Taylor Sheridan. Oh. Oh, I love that guy. I have to take. care of my friend. Has he been on the. show? Yes. Yes. I love him to death. He's a. good friend of mine. Friend of mine, too. I love him. All right. So, we have a mutual friend. Yes, sir. All right. It was a lot of. fun. Thank you. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

All right. Bye, everybody. Handshake. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].