Joe Rogan Experience #2341 - Bernie Sanders

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE. ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. ALL DAY. MR. SANDERS, great to see you. Good to. be with you, Joe. Great to be You've got a bunch of notes. Not all that much. Have you prepared for this? I am well prepared. Well, it's a good. time for you to be in here cuz the the. world's gone haywire. Yes. Yeah. What. are your thoughts on this? I think. I just thought off with Joe.

trying to take a deep breath and doing. what is not often done. Where are we as a country today? What's. going well? What's not going well? And I. don't think we don't we don't have that. kind of basic discussion. And to my. mind, I think in America today we are facing. more. serious crises than we have in the. modern history of our country. This is a. pivotal moment in American history and. what happens now will depend determine. the lives of our kids and future. generations.

What specifically concerns you? I'll. tell you what concerns me. The issue of. wealth and power. All right. I'm kind of old-fashioned and. I believe in democracy. And I believe that everybody should have. a a good shot at living a decent life. And what I worry about right now, and. this is an issue, Joe, and it's part of. the problem. that it just ain't talked about very. much. And I And I applaud, by the way, you and the other podcasters. who give people the time to really. seriously discuss things rather than. 7-second sound bites.

No. But if you take a look at where we are. as a nation today, this system is not. working. It's broken. It ain't working for ordinary human. beings. So, you have in America today where we. have more income and wealth inequality. than we've ever had in the history of. this country. That's just the fact. Uh you have. um. one man. uh Mr. Musk uh owning more wealth than. the bottom 52% of American families.

One man, 52% of American families. You. got the top 1%. owning more wealth than the bottom 93%. You got CEOs of large corporations. making 350 times. what their work is making. Meanwhile, in. this richest country in the history of. the world, working class people are getting. decimated. Today, and again, we don't talk about it. in Congress for reasons that I'm hope I. can get into. Yeah. We don't talk about. it in the corporate media. 60% 60% of Americans are living paycheck.

to paycheck. Now, I grew up in a family. I don't know your background, but I grew. up in a family. lived paycheck to paycheck. Man, anyone. who lives. paycheck to paycheck understands that. every single day is a struggle. You. know, you got to figure out. how you feed the kids, rents, cost of. housing in America off the charts, health care off the charts. So, right now, as we talk, there are. people worried, my landlord, you know, is going to raise my rent by 20%. What. do I How do I do? Where do I go? How do.

what What schools do my kid go to? How. do I buy decent food for my kids? My. mother is ill. How do I afford. prescription drugs for my mother? Uh my. car breaks down. You know, so you you. know, if you have money, no one thinks. of it. Your car breaks down, you go to. the mechanic, you got to fix. You know. what? A lot of people don't have a. thousand bucks in the bank right now. You don't have a thousand bucks, your. car breaks down, how do you get to work? If you don't get. to work, you get fired. If you get. fired, your whole life is disrupted. 60%. of American. How much different is that than past.

generations? It's the We've always had. rich and poor. No question about it. It's worse now, Joe. Uh. the. What do you attribute that to? I attribute it to. decades-old attacks on the working class. of this country. I attribute it to. horrific trade agreements. which have allowed corporate America to. throw millions of workers out on the. street and move to China and Mexico and. other low-wage.

countries. I attribute it to a corrupt. political system. in which billionaires have significant. control over both political parties. So, that for example, right now in. Washington, the national minimum wage is. $7.25 an hour. So, you got millions of workers today, you know, making 10, 12, 13 bucks an. hour. You tell me, how do people survive. on 13 bucks an hour? When we were kids, or at least when I. was a kid, you work for a large company, you had something called a defined. benefit pension plan. You know, that.

means that means you work for me for 30. years, when you retire, you're going to. get X hundreds of dollars a week. That's. long gone. Corporations have gotten rid. of that. So, you got something like half of all. the workers in America have nothing in. the bank when they face retirement. So, I think to answer your question, I think you got a rigged system. controlled economically and politically. by very, very wealthy and powerful. people who could care less. for working families. Now, I don't want. to romanticize the old days cuz that.

would not be true. But they used to be a. kind of a culture of I was a boss and I. ran a factory, I had a little bit of. concern for you, right? Right. You know, in general, I would say I know your wife. has the kids and mom doing and all that. stuff. That's gone. You got these companies that are owned. by other companies that are owned by. supernationals. You know, we got. involved in my office. Like we used to. be the chairman of the labor committee, health, education, labor. So, I got. involved in a lot of stuff. And when workers were out on strike, we. would call up and see what was going on, see how we can help. So, we'd call up to. the company and we'd say, you you know,

why are you cutting back on health care. for your workers? Well, we don't make. that decision. It's owned by somebody. else. Call up somebody else. Well, we're. owned by somebody You know how it is. It's just huge These huge conglomerates. own the bloody world. And these guys. don't give a damn. about the needs of working people. So, I. would say. that the economy becomes less and less. personal. I have no reason You're my. worker, I have no care about you cuz. right now, I'm owned by an international. who doesn't know that you exist. And. there's also a diffusion of. responsibility. Absolutely. even in your hands.

Exactly. So, the local boss might say, "Hey, listen, I'm really sorry, but I. didn't have any decision in here.". Right. Right. Right. There's nothing I. can do. Nothing I can do. Um so, I add all of that up and you have. a And then just look at other things. I. mean, you tell me, tell me about the. health care system. Does anybody in. America think this health care system is. working? Well, you could tell by the. assassination when the assassination of. the United Health Care guy when that. when that happened, there there was. people celebrating. When is there ever.

someone gets assassinated. Right. on the streets of New York City. and people celebrate. Right. That's. terrible. It's terrible, but it does speak to how. people feel about insurance companies. Right. Well, and I think rightly so. because it's not what you're paying for. What you're paying for is you're hoping. that you never get sick, but if you pay. your insurance, you will be covered. What they're trying to do is make it as. difficult as possible for you to get. money from them. it. That's The more money the more I can. deny you, the more money I make. Right.

And that's the bottom line. And when. you're dealing with these enormous. corporations like we're talking about. this diffusion of responsibility, the. people that are doing it, it's like this. is what I have to do. This is my job. They don't even think about it. Right. Exactly. And this all started when? Like when So, Michael Moore had that brilliant. documentary Roger & Me. Yeah. Yeah, I know Michael is a good. friend. Yeah. Uh he's a great guy. That. that documentary is fantastic. And it it. shows the impact of a corporation. taking all their factories, moving them.

away like that with no warning, no. recourse, nothing anybody can do, decimates uh the the it basically all of. Detroit. That's right. The people don't. know this. Yeah. But if my memory is. correct, Detroit used to be in the '50s. third richest city in the world. You got it. Yes. Yeah. We've talked. about it multiple times. It's. disgusting. Right. And especially me as. someone who loves American automobiles. I'm a I'm a big fan of what Detroit made.

during that time. And to see what. happened to Detroit now, the last time I. was in Detroit, it actually seems to be. picking up. There's a lot of small. businesses and a lot of artists and a. lot of people that are proud to like. Shinola, companies like that, proud to. be in Detroit. But there's just so many. abandoned buildings. It's it's insane. You can buy a house there for 500 bucks. That's right. It's really crazy. Like. giant factories where every window's. smashed, all the pipes have been torn.

out, and it's just this hulking And it's. not just Detroit. Right. I mean, there are other communities. corporations say, "Hey, I mean, and. That path is unsustainable, right? I. think so. Yeah. I mean, and look, if we. are. And again, gets back to what we want as. a nation. But you had corporations. saying, "Hey, back then, not now, I could pay workers. in China 25 cents an hour. Why the hell. do I want to hire you for what it was. then, five bucks an hour, whatever.". Right. And I'll never forget, Joe, uh early on.

when I was elected to Congress, this was when we had the NAFTA. agreement. I went to uh the maquiladora area. You. know what that is in uh. It's a special zone in northern Mexico. near the near the border. uh where uh the government there, this. is back decades ago, allowed. American and other European corporations. to settle and got tax breaks there. So, it was attracted all these corporations. So, I went there uh with a congressional. delegation.

And this is what I saw. You saw these. beautiful new factories. Now, this is. 25, 30 years ago. And then we said, "All right, I want to. see where the workers live." And I'll. never forget this as long as I live. We Do you know those large cardboard. boxes that refrigerators come into and. and stoves as big? That's what people. were living. They were living literally. in cardboard boxes making, I think, at. that point, and this is a long time ago, 25 cents an hour. So, workers in America were thrown out. on the street. And people in Mexico. exploited in a horrible way and these.

big shiny new factories at the time. So, what you got, and I believe this. strongly, the US be you know How does it. happen? Why does it happen? I think especially right now and and for. many decades, you have the prevailing. religion of the oligarchs and the. corporate world is greed. That's all. I want it all and I don't. give a [ __ ] if I have to step all over. you, throw you out on the street, take. away your social security. I want it.

And to hell with you. And that's why you. end up with a situation in America. where, you know, the top 1% now owns. more wealth than the bottom 93% and. millions of people struggle. It's also a. corporate culture of competitiveness, right? So, they're competing with all. the other corporations and you have to. keep up and there's no way other than to. increase your profits every quarter. That's right. That's right. That is. exactly you do the right thing by your. workers. All right, that's a perfect. example. So, you know, you got Wall Street.

Here's a here's a fact. When we talk. about it it's not only income and wealth. inequality that bothers me. It's. concentration of ownership. So, right now in America in virtually. every sector of our economy, whether. it's agriculture, transportation, financial services, whatever. You got a handful of giant. multinationals controlling that sector. But here's another amazing fact. Who do you think owns these. corporations? You know, you remember it was a day. where somebody actually owned General.

Motors or owned Ford. They're now owned. by Wall Street firms. You got three Wall. Street investment firms. BlackRock, you familiar with BlackRock? They're giant. State Street. Exactly. Yeah. Check it out on Google. They all. combined, the three of them combined, are the major stockholders of 95% of. American corporations. How's that? That's not good. That's power. Right. How did that start and what could have. been done to stop that from happening? Well, I think it's it's again, it's. greed. These guys are smart, they're.

hard working, they're motivated, they. want more and more. So, if I can buy. this, I can buy this, I can sell this. Right, but they're all doing it within. the law, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. But which is is that the problem? Yeah. But who makes that law? They do. Now, I want to go to another. issue which is very rarely discussed. All right, you ready for it? All right. Hang on. And is the the problem I think that we. face as a country is not just economic. disparities and all the stuff that we're. talking about, the rich getting richer.

and the poor getting poorer. It is political power. Right now, and I doubt that there are. many Americans whether you're. progressive as I am or a right-wing. Republican, I don't think people can disagree that. we have a corrupt campaign finance. system. Argue with me? No, I agree with you. Yeah. All right, so let me talk about what it means. Okay. As a result of the Citizens United. Supreme Court decision, I think it's 15, 16 years old. What it says is you're a.

billionaire, you have now the constitutional. right because your money is your freedom. of expression, right? So, you don't like. Bernie Sanders, you can put millions or hundreds of. millions of dollars into a campaign and. express your view about how terrible. Bernie Sanders is and you can buy that. election, right? That's your. constitutional right. I think that's. probably the worst decision that the. Supreme Court has ever made. So, what is. the result of that decision? The result of that decision, let's take. us to where we are today,

is that Elon Musk, and I know Elon was. on your show and he's here in Austin, huh? Yeah. Okay. And I've we could talk. about Elon, but he spent $270 million to. elect Trump as president. Okay. I think that's absurd that any one. person What's the most someone donated. towards the Harris campaign? They spent a lot of money on Harris as. well. $1.5 billion just over the course of a. couple of months. it. All right, let me talk about it. So,

I'm not here just to say it's. Republican, that's my point here. Okay. So, Musk spends that money and what's his. reward? He becomes the most powerful. person in government for three or four. months. Okay, fine. But what you have right now, and I just. saw this the other day, you are a Republican member of Congress, okay? And you say, you know, there's a. reconciliation bill which we can talk. about in a minute that this is Trump's. big bad big beautiful bill that's coming. up literally on the floor of the Senate. very shortly.

So, let's say you're a Republican. representing a low-income district. And you say, you know, you know, I I got a lot of people on. Medicaid in my district and kids can't. get to college and I worry about food. programs. I don't think it's a good idea. to give tax breaks to billionaires and. cut back on Medicaid. You make that. announcement today, what happens to you? It's over. You're attacked. You're finished. The swarm comes for you. You got it. Yeah. That's what I mean. It's It's the problem is it's already. been established, right? That these laws.

have been established, the power has. been given to these people, the money. has started flowing and it's been. flowing for a long time now. And this is. the the issue with starting something. that you can't stop. Well, you can stop. it. You can stop. And you got to stop it. Okay, but if you. do stop it, all these people are going. to throw all their money at stopping you. from stopping, correct? Right? Exactly. They're going to come up with the best. commercials with American flags, this. country's all about competition and. freedom. The freedom to donate to the.

party of your choice. Yeah. Stop these. communists. Stop. You're writing their. ads for them. THEY'RE GOING. HEY, I CAN write them. Yeah, we could. all write. But but then we got to take a. deep breath and and figure out where do. we go from here? Now, I wanted to in my. point, I you know, as you know, I am the. longest serving independent in American. history. I caucus with the Democrats, always have, but you ain't going to hear. me defending the Democratic Party on. this issue because you're right. Uh during the election, it wasn't just.

Musk and Republicans putting a lot of. money into Trump, it was Democratic. billionaires putting a lot of money into. Trump and into other candidates as well. And let me I mentioned there's a guy. named um I don't even know his first. name. Mr. Massie, does that name ring a. bell? Thomas Massie. Thomas from Kentucky. Yeah. And this guy, as I am, is opposed. to this war in in Iran. Just yesterday, Trump gave a long post about how they're. going to primary this guy. And it what bothers me is you would hope.

that there would be respect enough for. members of Congress that you can vote. your own conscience, you could, you. know, represent your constituency. Every. district is different in America, but. right now, anybody stands up and say, "Well, you know, I disagree with. President Trump." Bam, you are finished. We're going to primary you. We got all. kinds of money. You're out of there. That happened to Massie yesterday. But. let me go back to the Democrats and tell. you where the problem This episode is. brought to you by Squarespace. If you've. got a skill, there's no reason you can't. build a business around it. Squarespace.

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for a free trial. And when you're ready. to launch, use the code Rogan to save. 10% off your first purchase of a website. or domain. Can I point something out? Don't you think that there's a Streisand. effect to that? Don't you think that. there's a blowback for for that kind of. thing when people recognize that this. guy should be allowed to have his own. opinions and should be and it makes some. reasonable points and the people are. going to reject this idea. And then it's. it's not as simple as I think the whole.

uh MAGA thing right now is very divided. particularly because one of the things. that they voted for was no war. Well, now it seems like we're in a war, right? So, that and it's quick. We're 6. months in and that's already popped off. And then people are very concerned with. now what happens to our troops overseas. that are in these bases that are in. vulnerable positions. And what happens. with. I mean, there's supposedly. documented terror cells that got in.

through the open border over the last 4. years. So, what happens now in America? What happens on American soil? Right. No, I mean, I agree with those When a. guy like Thomas Massie steps up and says. something like he's going to have a lot. more support as well. The answer is yes. And my only point is. he has a right. Yes. You know, somebody else says, "Hey, I. think the war is a great idea." Fine, that's your view. You got to go back. But what bothers me is that if anybody. stands up, the next day, we're going to.

primary. You're out of here, man. And that's the Republicans. Let me talk. about the Democrats for a moment, okay? And I don't even know your views on. this, so you may disagree with me. You know, Israel was attacked by Hamas. and Hamas is a terrible terrorist. organization. They killed 1,200 people. which in a small country like Israel is. a lot of people. Terrible, terrible. attack. It's a war crime. Israel had a right, in my view, to. defend itself. But the Netanyahu government did not. have a right. to kill 52,000.

people in Gaza, wound over well over 100,000. And right. now, as we speak, Joe, children are starving to death because. of Israel's blockades, yeah. Yeah. Starving to death. And I brought forth two resolutions. which basically were very simple And. said uh no more US military aid uh to uh. Israel under these conditions. One vote got 15 votes in the Senate. The.

The other one got 16. Do you think that members of the Senate. do not know what's going on in Gaza? The. kids are starving to death. The innocent. people are being shot down right and. left. They know it. Why do you think I. couldn't get more votes? They wouldn't vote against Israel. Right. And. It's political suicide. That Now you're talking. Right. All right. So, in the Republican. side, you have moneyed interests saying, "You speak up against Trump, you're out. of here." In the Democratic side, you. speak up against the Netanyahu.

government, you're out of here as well. And they have been successful. You have. super PACs like AIPAC. spending a fortune. You stand there and they've already. knocked off a number of members of good. members of Congress. And they will do it. again. So, all I'm saying is you got a corrupt. campaign finance system on both sides. which is rejecting the will of the. American people and end up supporting. powerful special interests. And if we do. not get a handle on that issue,

I worry very much about the future of. American democracy. Are you going to run. for president again? I am 83 years of age. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, I'm. not sure the American people will be too. enthusiastic about somebody who's 108. very with it. Thank you. You are. Well, you know. I mean, you're. a couple years older than Biden. Right? Think of that. Yeah. You could be. off a lot worse. Yes. Yes. Yeah. All right. Um so, uh we have.

been running around the country doing. what we call the fighting oligarchy. tour, which is why I'm here in Texas. We were. in Fort Worth last night. Had a good. turnout. And I think, interestingly enough, Joe, it's not most of the people We know the. people who come out to our rallies. You. know, we have a big list of millions of. people. But a lot of people are coming to our. rallies that we don't know. And I think. we know that some of them are. Republicans and some of them are. independents. Many of them are. independents. Because I think, across the board,

uh there is growing dissatisfaction with. the current politics in America, both. parties. And people want a new vision for. America, which is also something. we don't talk a whole lot about. So, you know, the issues that we talk. about is in the richest country on. Earth, why don't we have the best health care. system in the world? Why do we have 85. million people who are uninsured or. underinsured? And as you were mentioning. a moment ago, I mean, he deals with the. insurance companies.

and the drug companies. And the function of the current health. care system is to make these guys very. rich. And And it works. They make. zillions of dollars. And every place you go, in my state, the. cost of health care is going up this. year like 10, 15%. People can't afford. it. Uh and we lose thousands of people every. year. People get sick, they can't afford. to go to the doctor. They die. Uh so, you know, one of the fights that. I hope we can win. is to have the United States join every.

other major country on Earth and. guarantee health care to all people uh. as a human right. Well, we've talked about that a lot on. this show that if you view this country. as a community, the most important thing. is to protect the most vulnerable. members of your community. Period, right? I agree. And if we we spend insane amounts of. money on all sorts of things that people. don't agree with. And I think generally. most people would agree on some sort of. a national health care system.

Most people. Like there's there's. there's concepts of socialism that. everyone agrees with. One of them is the. fire department. Right. Right? Everyone thinks that. everyone, every citizen, should have. access, the same equal access to the. fire department. And we all pay into. that. And we all believe in education. We all. believe that there should be free public. education. Right. And most people believe that the. university system should also be funded. It would be benefit everyone.

You got it. It would benefit everyone to have more. educated people that are doing better in. the world. You'd have better GDP. You'd. have more more successful people. right. If you want to make America great. again, less losers. How do you make less. losers? Don't stack the deck against them. You know, one of the first things that. you'd have to do is figure out why these. communities and these cities have been. the exact same way for decade after. decade. Back to Jim Crow and the redline laws. and all these Why Why is nothing being. done to fix that or to to correct that.

problem? And it becomes this political. beach ball that they just bounce around. the air at a concert. You know, and. everybody It's like there's certain. things that just keep coming up that. make you just just go Well, how are we. still talking about gay marriage? How. How is that still coming up? And it's. like poof, throw it up in the air. All. right. Let me get back to that. But I. want to say There's a bunch of these. things, right? right. The first point you made, you. want to make America great. Right. Have. the best. losers. Have Have the best educated workforce in. the world. How's that? Radical idea? I. don't think so. Right. And you're absolutely right. Better education and health.

longer when you have better education, etc., etc. All right. So, what does that mean? It means right now, you know, I talk to psychologists all. the time cuz You do? Yeah, I do. Because. I am uh. I was the chairman of that what they. call the ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor Committee. So, you. know, we deal with medical people all. the time. Uh-huh. Wasn't me personally. that No. That I may need also, but No, I was. talking to her about general stuff. Look, what are the most important years of.

human development? You're a human being. What are the most important. a child. That's right. Yeah. Zero to four. How's our child care. system doing? Yeah. Not so good. It's a disaster. So, you got. a rational society says, "Okay, the kids are the future of America.". Right? You talked about the sense of. being a community. All. Right. So, if I love this country and I. want this country to do well in the. future, I have to worry about the. children. Correct? Right. Absolutely. Right now, for economic reasons, when I.

was a kid, by the way, and this is going. to shock some of your younger listeners. here, there was one worker in a family could. actually bring home the bacon and pay. the bills. Yeah. Back in the old days. Back in the old days. Yeah, man. So, I. grew up in a working-class family. We. didn't have any money. But Dad went out. to work, Mom stayed at home. And that. was it. Yeah. Um Made healthier people, too, that way. It did. Yeah. It did. I think in many respects, it did. Well, something happened where. they sort of devalued.

uh the woman's role as a mother. And by convincing them that they have to. be a part of the workforce. I think that's part of it. I think the. other half is women legitimately wanted, you know, careers as well. And the other. thing that happened, maybe most. significantly, is you needed to stay. alive. two breadwinners to stay. Yeah. That's the problem. The real. problem was financially, it just seemed. so difficult for one person to pay for. everything and. Exactly. The only way to do it was to. have both parents working. I was thinking, I grew up in Brooklyn.

before I moved to Vermont. And uh we. lived in a rent-controlled apartment. And I was doing the arithmetic. My dad. didn't make much money. But we didn't pay much in rent. And I I. couldn't quite remember, you know, what. his what his salary was and all that. But my guess is we paid, as I recall, talking to my brother about this, about. 18%. of my dad's salary. for rent. 18%. Ain't nobody in America today who's paid. 18%. You know what I mean? Right. That's why you need two breadwinners,

cuz you're paying 40%, 50%. Right. You you you you. Yeah. But getting back to this issue of. education, which I think is key. If you were rationally thinking about. the future of America, if you loved. America, as we all do, you're going to have the best child care. system in the world so the kids will do. well in school. Right now, in child. care, you got workers out there making. 15 bucks an hour. And you have families that cannot afford. child care. In my state, I don't know, it's about $20,000 a year. to send your kid to.

child care. So, you're making 50,000 a. year, how do you pay that? 60,000? You. you can't do that. And then education, you got kids who. want an education. They want to go to. college, they want to go to trade. school. We desperately need Here's. something that really drives me a little. bit nuts. In America today, Joe, not only is our. health care system failing us, it's. based on greed, not on need. But. we need more doctors. All right? All over the country, people have to. wait, you know, sometimes months to get.

to a doctor's office. We have a massive nursing shortage. We need more dentists, big problem in. dentistry. We need more mental health. counselors. We need more pharmacists. How come in the richest country in the. world, we don't have enough doctors and. nurses? Cuz it's very difficult to do. It's very. difficult to become a doctor, and the. the bills that you have from education. are overwhelming. All right. You want to go to Let's just. say. tomorrow you announce to the world, you. give it up, this podcast, you want to go.

to medical school. All right? Huh. You got it? Yeah. You know much If you don't have any. money, do you know how much you're going. to graduate medical school in debt? Probably quarter million dollars, easy. Double that. Really? Yeah. I I'm I'm not. Yeah, obviously it varies per person, but it is not unusual for guys, you. know, people working-class homes, go to. medical school, come out with $500,000. in debt. Right. Nurses, I don't know, 100, 150,000. dollars in debt. That is insane. It's. insane. All right. Yeah. We need more.

doctors. So, I should I want to. encourage you, Joe. I want you to go to. medical school. Hey, good news, we're. paying your tuition, da da da, and we. need you out there as soon as we can get. you. Why wouldn't that be subsidized? Of. course you should subsidize it. Right. Of course. Yeah. But there's there's. there's so many different What would you. have done? Like imagine if you hadn't. gotten derailed and they hadn't. conspired against you and you actually. became the Democratic candidate for. president and you won. What would you. have done differently?

Okay. How many hours do we have? We have. all the time in the world, Bernie. I know. What would you have done first day in. office? Well, it's not just the first day in. office. I would have dealt with this. campaign finance reform issue. Uh and. there are ways that you can get around. that Supreme Court decision. How do you do that? Uh you move toward. public funding of elections which says. that Joe, you want to run against me? That's great.

Uh but you're not going to get super PAC. money. Uh we're going to publicly fund you. You. know, you you. uh get 1,500 signatures that says you're. a serious candidate, you'll get a. certain amount of money to run for. office. So, funded by the government. Yes, absolutely. Rather than. running for president funded by the. current president. Well, not the current president. Funded. by the current government. government. And people say, "Oh, taxpayer dollars. are going to" but that makes a lot more. sense than having billionaires fund.

elections which is what you got right. now. So, that's the more you. think there should be when you get a. certain number, you just get a certain. allotted amount of money that you could. use for your campaign and everybody gets. the same amount. That exists in some places right now. Does it work? Yeah, in New York City right now. Oh, in. New York City. And other places as well. So, if you agree. you know, you're going to raise. you don't you're not going to raise. private money. You go the public route. Uh it exists in a number of communities. and I think that is. Did you watch the New York City uh. debates? The mayor debates. of I'm in I got involved in I'm.

supporting uh Mr. um Mondani. A lot of people are. Well, especially. after that debate. Right. It seems like. everybody else was essentially saying, "I I've been to Israel more than you've. been to Israel.". I I'm going to go to Israel before you. do. Right. They think they're. campaigning to be foreign you know, minister for Israel or something. Uh but talk about money in politics. Yes. Just look at New York City. Right. now, there's the election tomorrow, I. think, right? I think it's tomorrow. Tuesday Let's say. Monday. Today Tomorrow's Tuesday, right? Yes. That's the election.

They're spending a huge amount of money. You know, the dem These are Democratic. or some cases. lead right now? Uh the polls say Cuomo by a little bit, but I think. uh Zoran has a lot of momentum. We'll see. Uh polls are weird. In a race. like that, yes. Well, they're weird in. every race. They were wrong with Hillary. in 2020. Or uh in 2016 rather. They were wrong in. 2024. with Harris and Trump. Like I don't. understand polls.

Cuz I just I don't I have a feeling. that the majority of them are. inaccurate. Well, I think they are. increasing I I don't know the answer to. either question. The pollsters would. argue that's not the case, but. I think you got a lot of folks who are. not all that enthusiastic about honestly. giving honest answers to a pollster. Absolutely. Yeah, that's true, too. Yeah, that's part of the problem, right? All right, but you asked me on my first. day as president. Well, I'd have you. drop in, say hello. Have a cup of.

coffee, all right? Good. And and then I I think we'd. declare something like our health care. system as an emergency. and figure out ways that we can do what. every other major country on earth does. and that is guarantee health care to all. people. So, one of the things you do is. say, "Okay, we need. tens of thousands of more doctors and. hundreds of thousands of more nurses and. dentists and so forth and so on. And we're going to move aggressively. to make sure that in America everybody. in this country has health care as a.

human right. So, I think that's number. one. Number two, uh at a time of massive income and. wealth inequality. uh you don't give tax breaks to. billionaires. You demand that they start. paying their fair share of taxes. And one of the problems that we have, it's not just an American issue, it's a. global issue. A lot of these. billionaires. are hiding their money in tax havens in. the Cayman Islands and Russia. And. that's an international issue, but I. think we have to have a fair tax tax. system which says that individuals and.

wealthy and and corporations that are. making a whole lot of money uh start. paying their fair share of taxes. What. is their fair share? I don't know. I. mean, you know, Eisenhower the very rich paid. at their upper levels 90% you know. But. uh let me be very honest with you, Joe, on this one. 90% is kind of crazy, though, right? No, no, that's not a. cost. That's just for the you know, your. billionth dollar. You know what I mean? It's not your your first dollar. It's. not your. you make a billion, you pay 900 million. in taxes. no, no, no, no, that's not what it. means. It means on your 900 million.

dollar, you're going to pay 90%. Okay. All right. But you know, the other thing that. uh. I would do and you know, you got to deal with this climate change. issue. And I know that you know, there are some. people who think climate change is a. hoax. It ain't a hoax. Uh I think the last 10 years have been. the warmest on record. And we can create. millions of good paying jobs. transforming our energy system away from.

fossil fuels to energy efficiency, to. solar, to wind and other sustainable. energies. This episode is brought to you. by Paleo Valley 100% grass-fed beef. sticks. I live a super busy lifestyle. I'm. always running from one thing to the. next and Paleo Valley is the perfect. on-the-go snack. These beef sticks are. legit. No junk, no garbage ingredients, just pure clean protein fermented the. old school way. So, they're shelf-stable. without chemicals. That is huge. And the. fermentation part, it's actually good.

for your gut. Most people don't even. think about that, but if you care about. performance, you have to care about your. gut health. And taste-wise, they're. awesome. They've sold over 55 million of. these things. That's not just hype. That's people coming back again and. again because it works. Go to. paleovalley.com. and use the code Rogan to get 20% off or. find them on Amazon. I think the climate. change issue is very complicated and I. think uh did you see the Washington Post.

uh piece that they wrote where they did. this long-term view? First of all, the. the reality is that the earth's. temperature has never been static, right? We could both agree on that. It's. always been up and down. There's been. ice ages and heat waves. And then the Washington Post looked at. it. What was the time period that they. looked at? That. essentially they found that we're in a. cooling period. That the earth over the past X amount of. years. and this was like a very inconvenient. discovery, but they had to report the.

data and kudos to them for doing that. Scientists have captured the earth's. climate change over the last 485 million. years. Here's a surprising place we. stand now. Uh so, look at the far end of that graph. and you see we're in a cooling period. Well, I'm not sure. I didn't read that. article, but I. you know, the scientists who are out. there, I think. I know, but there's a lot of money. involved in that, too, Bernie. That's. part of the problem. There's a lot of. money involved in this this whole. climate change emergency issue and. there's a lot of control.

And that's that's a big part of this. problem. Not only that, if we're just. talking about primarily carbon and. carbon footprint, what are we going to. do about China? Because China. Absolutely. China is like what. percentage of. They are the major they are the major uh. polluter right now in terms of carbon. We're number two. We used to be one. They're number one right now. I think they have an enormous percent of. global. I I think it's. number one. I don't know what the. percentage is. Look, this is it's not an. American issue. It is a global issue.

And all I can tell you. is that we are in my view going to see. more extreme weather disturbances. uh in the coming years than we have. ever. And we're seeing them right now. We are seeing Right, but scientists. don't agree. Well, this is where it gets. confusing because scientists that are in. agreement. there's all these entanglements. Whenever someone's. discussing something, whether it's. economics or whether it's health issues. or pharmaceutical drugs, there's.

financial entanglements. I think we both. agree with that, right? Yep. And I think this is part of the. issue with this whole climate change. emergency as well because. it's not just that we could all agree. pollution is a major factor. It's a huge. issue in the world today. We could all. agree with that, right? I think one of the things that we have. to recognize is that there's whenever. there's an issue that everyone can agree. on, you're going to have a bunch of. people that capitalize on that issue and. they look to gain.

more money. They they they have. financial issues that they they push. forward in order to to capitalize on. this issue, but then also power and. control. These things like they're. trying to institute in the UK where they. have these 15-minute cities, this. concept where you're not allowed to. travel. They'll be able to look at your. carbon footprint. It's Yeah, see? That's. the problem. The the the problem is. giving people that are in power, these. people that we've all discussed that. have so much money and so much control.

over our societies, multinational. corporations, giving them more control. over citizens. And this is a vehicle for. that. And this is what's dangerous about. this whole climate change emergency. because it allows these [ __ ] creeps. that have been controlling people and. controlling what you do and what you say. and how you spend your money when with. people that already live in check to. check and you put additional constraints. on them and you make them even more. scared. And then you put additional. measures where you can look at their. carbon footprint, you can look at the.

amount they travel. What do you know, put a carbon tax on these people. Let's. figure out how to extract more money. from them. That's what bothers me about this. climate change emergency. Not not that. we we can all agree pollution is a. terrible thing. Everyone should agree to. that. The the beautiful earth that. sustains us and all life on this planet. is being poisoned as we speak. We're. killing all the fish in the ocean and. sucking them out in giant numbers. 94%. of all the big fish that are in the. ocean are gone over the last, you know,

whatever it is. When you go to war. against nature, you lose. Yeah, cuz. you're a part of nature. Exactly right. worshipping the almighty dollar above. the model. you asked me when I ran for president. one of the interest in it's. you know, it's something else to run for. president cuz you got to run. You meet. all kinds of people and you learn all. kinds of things. And one of the things that I did we went. to a lot of. we met with a lot of Native Americans. And one of the reasons is, you know, their tradition was going from way back.

respect for nature. That they understood. back way back when that you kill off all. of the buffalo, you ain't going to have. nothing to eat. Right. Right. They understood that. And then. you you understand that you live in. harmony with nature, which is I think. what you're talking about. Absolutely. And if you lose that harmony, I worry. about the. future of humanity in in general. is the problem with financial. competitiveness. When you put that. almighty dollar above all else. That's right. then all you think about. it and you're only alive for 100 years.

So it's just hit the gas. Hit the gas. for 100 years and who gives a [ __ ] what. happens after I'm gone. I'm going to die. with the most toys. Yay, I win in the. dirt. Yeah. And that is which takes us to another. issue. Okay. And that is artificial intelligence and. robotics. Automation. Automation. Yeah. Okay. So Giant issue. Huge issue. All. right. So let's back it up. Um. Americans. are angry.

And one of the reasons they are angry. is that over the last. just give you one fact here. Last 52. years you and I understand everybody in. the world understands there's been a. huge explosion in technology, correct? Mhm. What we're doing today never could. have happened 50 years ago. Factories far more automated, offices. far more automated. I became mayor of Burlington, Vermont in. 1981. There was not a computer in the. building, okay? So that's.

By the way, great town. It is a great. town. Uh in any case, the explosion of. technology, significant increase in. worker productivity, right? We're talking to millions of people now. never could have happened before, right? That's true. Workers are producing a lot. more. Tell me, how have real inflation. accounted for wages been over the last. 52 years with all of that increase in. worker productivity? Workers doing a lot. better? Not so good. Not so good. No. In fact, there are studies out there. that suggest in real inflation accounted.

for dollars. wages are actually lower now than they. were 52 years ago, okay? And during that same period there's a. massive transfer of wealth from the. bottom 90% to the top 1%. So that's what. technology has done over the last 50. years. That is not. I think there was a study. I don't know. if you saw this. Blew me away. I can't. remember who did it. Kaiser? Some reputable guy people did it. This is what they said. They do a poll. to the American people and they say. uh Americans.

do you think you are better off today. than somebody in your situation, your. middle class, up whatever you may be. was. uh 40 years ago, okay? Are you better off today than somebody. in your circumstance would have been 40. years ago? What was the answer? What do you think? No. Yeah. And what the answer was and this is and. we got to deal with this one. This is. big. The answer was, you know, there. were a number of people said, "Hey, look, I got a cell phone. It's great. I. got a big screen TV. It's great. I can.

fly all over the world. It's great. I I. get sick. I get treatment now that I. never could have had 40 years ago, all. right?" Those are facts. All really positive developments. But on. average. most people said. I I I think the situation is worse today. than it was 40 years ago. And that is. what we got to deal with. So you got to. have all the technology in the world. What the hell does it mean if your life. is not improving? In fact, in many ways. getting worse. Yeah. Well, I. again we'll go back to polls again cuz I.

don't necessarily. believe that polls are totally accurate, but I I do think that the the the issue. with. it being virtually impossible for one. person to sustain the entire family. these days. One worker, the father or. the mother, whoever it is. to sustain the entire that's a that's a. giant issue. All these issues when it. comes to labor, when it comes to minimum. wage, I think you and I are in agreement. of all the on all these. I think the.

minimum wage in this country is. ridiculous. I mean to $7? What? It's insane. How do you live off $7? You. go to Jimmy John's, you get a sub. How. much is a sub? How much is a sub like a big sub at. Jimmy John's? Some guy was just did a. TikTok video where he's like. they're they're trying to say that. minimum wage $15 is too much. I think he. had a sub that he bought for 25 bucks. So imagine that's your lunch. So imagine you have to work three and a. half hours.

just to pay for a sandwich? Imagine how. insane that is. It's insane. That's insane. Like how do you eat? How. do you how do you eat dinner? How do you. eat lunch? Joe, I have breakfast. I have. talked to people who make 10, 12 bucks. an hour trying to raise a kid. Jesus. That's right. Yeah. Well, the the. argument against that is, "Hey, these. are entry-level jobs that are supposed. to be for kids.". No, it's and that's actually correct. Yeah, of course it's true to some. degree. To some degree, but if you have. grown adults that are working those. jobs, now it becomes disgusting.

That's right. That's exactly right. Especially when you're dealing with an. enormous corporation. You got it. Right. So we put a lot of pressure, you know, we you know, are trying to raise the. minimum wage, federal minimum wage to 17. bucks an hour. That's what That's a. reasonable amount of money. You know, I mean it's still it's not. it's going to be real difficult to live. off of 17 bucks an hour. But at least. that's right. At least you get a. sandwich in under two hours worth of. work. All right, but I want to get back to. this issue because it's one that we. don't talk about and it gets to AI.

Why do why do we have what you know, some of these people call an epidemic of. loneliness in America, all right? Yes. All right. Why are we mental illness. rates are pretty high, suicide rates are. too high, too much God. drug addiction. Right. Horrible problem. all over the country. Why? Well, there's a lot of factors. Um first of all. there is a. there are a lot of people that are very. unhealthy. Physically unhealthy. I think.

metabolic health is a gigantic issue in. this country. Yep. Um there's a a lot of people in. this country that feel completely. disenfranchised and so they turn inward. And then technology invites them to do. that. You get online and you spend your. time staring at a screen having. communications with people, arguing on. Twitter all day. You know, changing the flag in your bio. from Ukraine to Palestine and now you. got an Iranian and you just like in a. constant state of anxiety and chaos.

You're dealing with the entire problem. the the problems of the entire world. You're dealing with 8 billion people's. worth of problems every day. Um I think. that's unsustainable. And then that's. also a function of technology because. this interaction that we have is. unprecedented. The interaction with the. news, with each other, all this stuff. we're not designed to handle and it. gives you massive anxiety, particularly. for young people. Uh particularly Jonathan Haidt's written. about this with young girls who have the.

biggest problem with social media, comparing themselves to other people, massive increase in self-harm, suicide, suicide ideology, depression, anxiety, all this stuff accentuated by. technology. And our unchecked use of it. you hit the nail on the head. And so I think we got to take a deep. breath. and understand. that we got to figure out how we make. technology work to improve human life.

Right. Not to hurt you. Don't you think this is the 11th hour? I. think it is. Yeah. This is the the. problem with it is like it's already the. the genie's The genie's out of the box. There's no question about it. But you. know, we can't sit around and just do. nothing. Um But when it this is the real issue. When it becomes a problem where you have. massive automation of almost all jobs. which is something that especially when. you deal with a corporation that is. entirely based around making the most. amount of money possible. Well, what.

better way when you don't have to pay. them anything? You got it. You own. There were signs. I don't know if you've. seen them. Signs advertising from from AI. companies. Uh what was they saying? Don't hire. humans, something like that. Did you see. that posted? That's adorable. Don't hire. humans. That's demonic. It is. Yeah. Yeah, but. also from the perspective of a. corporation where you deal with human. issues, problems, mistakes, people. showing up late, not doing their job.

correctly. I can get a robot? Exactly. All right, you're not going to. get sick. You know, I can fix you a lot. easier than paying for your health care. and so forth and so on. Right. So what do you do? What do you do about that? So if you're. the president and President Sanders, we. have this issue. The whole country is. going to go automation. What do we do? All right. First of all, we make the determination. that we are not going to let a handful. of CEOs make these decisions. So they're. going to be made by the American people.

What does that mean? Bottom line, it means that technology is. going to work to improve us, not just. the people who own the technology and. the CEOs of large corporations. What. does that mean? All right, first. thought. You are a worker. Your worker. your productivity is increasing because. we give you AI, right? Right. All right. Instead of throwing you out on the. street, I'm going to reduce your. workweek to 32 hours. All right, see you.

good night. Four-day workweek. Exactly. And by the way, not a radical. idea. Not a radical idea at all. Companies around the world that are. doing it with some success. The UAW, the United Automobile Workers. Uh they had a big strike a year ago, you. remember against the big three, remember. that? Mhm. And they won a very good. contract and I'm a. big fan of the trade union movement. I. think workers need that. Um and one of their demands, interestingly after people thought that. Shawn Fain, who was the president of the. union, was crazy. But Shawn said, you know what, we want a. 32-hour workweek because our people are.

producing more. People thought he was. crazy, but the idea is catching on. So, first thing to say is. let's use technology. to benefit workers. That means give you. more time with your family, with your. friends, you know, for education, whatever the hell you want to do. You. don't have to work 40 hours a week. anymore. Second thing I think we have got to do. is take a look, as you just said, you. said it, you know, better than I said. it. Is what does it mean that we have so. many young kids living on the internet?

Right. All right. Uh there are schools all over the. country now who are getting uh cell. phones out of schools. I talked to. teachers. in Vermont and they say, you know, the. the kids' attention spans now have been. greatly diminished. Yes. You know. Uh how do we deal with that? This. in Vermont again, there was a somebody. told me that there's a teacher now who. does he he demands that the his students. write with a pen in blue books now.

because he doesn't trust what they're. sending in, that it's not artificial. intelligence. All right? So, if I say to you, all. right, Joe, give me tell me what. happened to the American Revolution, you. go to the chat box, you get the a. wonderful essay that you know nothing. about, right? Right. What does that mean for your. intellectual development? The only you can do is press a button. and give me an answer. Right. Unless. you've absorbed that information. you have. But many kids are not. And. we've got to worry about that as well. So, I think we have to take a deep. breath and many of the things what has.

been the impact of all this stuff? How. do we stop the negative impacts? How do. we go forward with what is positive? And. it is not easy stuff, to be sure. But I just don't what I worry about. right now. is I think artificial intelligence is. going to displace. millions and millions of workers. People. are going to be thrown out on the. streets. I think the corporate guys. who are running these companies could. care less about these workers. Uh I think robotics is going to be.

running a lot of the factories in. America. And I think these are issues that we. just have got to address in a bold way. Yes, but how do you do that? And like. you're balancing it out in in one way, if you are a corporation, like imagine. you're um. an automobile manufacturing corporation. You're Ford. What and Ford is struggling. right now. There there's a giant issue. with Ford, right? So, what does Ford do.

if all of a sudden something comes along. that allows them to be more productive, they more they're more profitable, that. these machines can work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, they don't need time off, and you're going to make a better. product. You're going to make more money. for your shareholders, the corporation. succeeds, Right. but you don't need X amount of workers. anymore. Right. What how do you how do. you mitigate this? that's the right question. And I don't. think. All right, nobody has a simple answer. Let's just talk about Does Ford simply. Does corporate America.

have the right to say to workers. throughout this country, "Hey, sorry guys, we don't need you. anymore. Have a nice life, you're out on. the street.". Instead of thinking them as workers, should we think of them as Look, there. are people that make the decisions, there's the executives, there's the the. corporation itself, but without the. people that worked on those assembly. lines, you have nothing. That's right. You have nothing. You couldn't have done. any of the things you've done without. those people. But those people are.

replaceable because it's skilled labor. that you could teach another person to. do, and they're replaceable because. there's plenty of people that want those. jobs, and there's a demand. So, you have. file them in, you file them out, which. is why they developed unions, right? So, they developed unions to keep people. from being exploited, Right. and then. the problem becomes unions get. exploited, and then the the unions have. a lot of money, and then there's a lot. of influence and then they decide, "Okay, [ __ ] these unions, let's go to. Mexico.".

And these laws that Ross Perot famously. talked about the giant sucking sound. headed south, remember that? Yeah. Oh, I remember him well. Boy, was. he right? Yeah. Boy, was he right? All right, let's get back to this issue of which. What do you do? Like if you're you're. the president and. no easy answers. Let me let me throw. that out to you. I don't have a magical. solution. I wish I did, I don't. I think the first thing you you say, all. right, I'm Ford, I'm General Motors. I. got all this technology. I can produce. my products. much more efficiently. I don't need.

workers anymore, right? Right. Well, I'm sorry, Mr. GM, and I'm sorry, Mr. Ford, because this country is more than. just your profits. We are human beings, and you're not. going to throw people out on the street, many of whom will have a hard time. getting health care, etc., etc. So, the Let me reframe the question. again, of which admittedly, it is. complicated. I don't have the magic. answer. How as a nation, forget Ford, forget. General Motors, how as a nation do we. deal with this exploding technology so.

that it benefits all of us. and not just Mr. Ford and Mr. General. Motors. That's the question, I think. All right, and it's going to require. radical solutions. So, for a start, it gets back to. something we talked about a little while. ago. If you had. health care as a human right, right? Mhm. All right. As people in almost every other wealthy. country have, and not attached to your job, that would. be a major step forward, right?

Yes, absolutely. Joe, you lost your job, but you know. what, your family still has health care. Imagine if you were a diabetic and now. you don't have access to insulin because. now you no longer have Right, okay. So, this is the way I frame it. We are the wealthiest country in the. history of the world right now. With all. of this artificial intelligence and. robotics, we are going to be wealthier. Correct? Correct. So, we're not in the 1820s where people. had to work 100 hours a week. to grow food to eat, right? Right. You're not in the 1920s, you're.

in 2025. You have all of this productivity out. there. How do we utilize it. to create a decent standard of living. for all people? Let me ask you this. With all of this technology, can we wipe. out poverty in America? Well, we should be able to, right? Yeah, you should be. Well, we should have been able to do. that a long time ago if that was. something that was politically. motivated, right? If you wanted to. But. it's easy enough. Pardon me? If it was profitable to wipe. out poverty, which it should be. Like. overall as a community, like I said,

less losers, higher GDP. the country. Yeah, if you really love America, you. want more people to have a chance. All right, so what kind of tech All. right, good. I mean, I I So, the the And. again, please, this is these are. complicated issues. I surely don't have. all the answers. But I think we throw on the table, you. got all of this technology, what is our. goal? So, all right. Our goal is if we're going to create all. of this wealth, that we have a health care system that. guarantees health care to all people. And by the way,

we have drug companies whose function is. to come up with cures to. diabetes and dementia and Alzheimer's. and other terrible illnesses, rather. than just make huge profits for. themselves, all right? You have a publicly funded health care. system that guarantees health care to. all people. Just doing that. would lower the stress rate in this. country enormously. Sure. Okay, you got that. We talked a moment. ago about education. I think you and I. agreed. Yes. We want the best educational system in. the world. What does it mean.

that all you don't have to work You're. working dead out there. You're worried. that your kid may have a lower standard. of living than you. Your kid can't. afford to go to college. You don't want. your kid leaving school $50,000 in debt. We say education is a human right. God, you know, you mentioned public education. a while ago. That didn't happen by accident. You. know, back in the early 20th century, a lot of people, working class people, fought and said, you know what, we don't. only want you know, the rich kids to get. a decent education. We want our kids.

And that's how public education began, right? Right. So, it said, okay, everybody in America, you know, state by state, starting in. Wisconsin, actually, is going to have. public education from first grade to. kindergarten to 12th grade. God didn't create 12th grade as the. limit, right? Right. All right. You go. to Scandinavia. You go to Germany right. now. You know how much it costs to get a. higher education? How much? Zero. That's. great. Of course it's great. Because they want. good cars. Well, it could be.

You know, they want. That's right. But the bottom line is. what you said. Yeah. If I want this. country to be productive, Right. I want. the best educated workforce. That's not. a debate, right? Unquestionably. All right. That's how you want your. family, and if the country is a. community, the country is your family. Exactly. Yes. All right. So, that's what we got to start thinking. about. It's not just what Mr. Ford and. Mr. General Motors and Mr. Apple want. Right. You're right in saying they are. motivated by making zillions. Right. All. right. Their motivation is throw the.

workers out on the street, bring in the. technology and screw the workers. That. is not what we should be doing as a. nation. You got to tell them that. All. right. All right. So, we got to sit. there and say, all right, all this. technology. All right, we talk about. health care as a human right. I think. we're talking about education. uh as a human right. Right. I think we should be saying with. all of this technology, we got to be. thinking seriously about lowering the. number of hours that people work. Yes. you know how many people there are? Zillions of people in this country don't. work 40 hours a week. They work in 50,

60 hours a week. That's insane. So, we. can say all of this increased worker. productivity, guess what? You know, I. don't know what the number is. We got to. work on a 34-hour work four-day work. week. with no loss of pay. Uh I introduced the bill to do that. I. got to say, I you know, I go to. airports, I go around, people came up to. me. People are stressed out by the. amount of hours they have to work. Absolutely. All right. So, what I'm saying here is. let's take a hard look about how we. utilize this technology to improve.

life for all people. Our goal should be Yeah, instead of. bombing Iran, our goal should be right. now, Joe, uh our life expectancy in America is. lower than it is in other major. countries. You know that? Yes. It's 4 years younger than 4 years. shorter lifespans than other wealthy. countries. If you're working class in. America, you live 7 years. shorter life than the 1%, which is. to me just outrageous. All right. So, here's the here's the.

thing. Instead of bombing Iran, how do we increase life expectancy so. that we're living the longest lives of. many people on Earth? How's that for a. goal? Well, that's a great goal. And how. do you go about achieving that goal? Well, health care is one, reducing the work. week is another, education is the all. the things that we've talked about. you talked about. Right. Will increase life expectancy. But, have. a goal out there. Also taking toxic food. out. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, I don't you know, I. don't. I've known.

uh. uh Bobby Kennedy for a long time. And. you know, he and I have. gone. in different directions politically, but. here's the point about. health food food. We spend the most and we're the sickest. Absolutely. Absolutely. And food is one of the When I was. chairman of the committee, we worked. very hard to get to serious labeling. You know, some kid drinks a. Mom buys a bottle of Coca-Cola for the. kid. There's like what? 10 teaspoons of. sugar in that that product. Yeah. You know, I don't think people. know that. And we tried to get labeling,

maybe that will happen now. Uh but. People also weren't aware until the like. the last 20 years of the consequences of. that sugar is. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, also because of money. You got it. I mean, you Yeah. Don't get me going on. that one. I mean, you know, Yeah. I'll get you going. Come on. You know, you would think, how hard is it to say. if you have a bottle of soda or you have. a. food product, tell people in English. what is in the damn product, right? Right. You think anybody there here. right now they have any grams? You think.

anybody in America knows what the hell a. gram is? I mean, it just that's how. ridiculous it is. So, I want parents to know that if the you. know, the food that they're serving. their kid could lead to obesity, which. is an epidemic in America, could lead to diabetes, which is an. epidemic, a terrible illness, costing us. hundreds of billions of dollars. So, you're absolutely right. Right. All right. And and then that ties. into rebuilding family-based agriculture. in America. Wouldn't it be nice?

Yes. In my state of Vermont, all over. this country, family farmers are. you know, they're just being driven off. of the land. And that to me is a real. tragedy. because and again, Vermont is one of the. most rural states in America. Growing up, if you talk to people who. grew up on farms, they say, you know, Bernie, that was a pretty good way of. life. And we're losing that. So, how do you. create an economy in which we once again. put an emphasis on family-based. agriculture, not corporate agriculture,

family farmers who are growing good, in. many cases, organic food for our kids, rather than quick. Regenerative. Regenerative agriculture. Like true like White Oak Pastures, the. way they run it. Polyface Farms. A bunch. be great? Yes. All right. Well, we'd be a lot. healthier if we ate that food. That's. for sure. But, the problem is people. already addicted to that other food. And. this is the problem with money. These. corporations have engineered these. products. And this is these are the same. corporations, unfortunately, that were. in charge of tobacco. You know, this is where it gets really.

weird. They bought out all the major. processed food corporations, and they. make this stuff that's unbelievably. addictive cuz it's engineered by. scientists. We got the brightest and the. best who figured out what's the best way. to get these people totally addicted to. whatever, you know, is that? How pathetic is that? Yeah. Yeah. And they say, hey, these. people they have they have choice. They. could eat whatever they want. They want. to go to the grocery store and eat. tomatoes and have a nice salad, they. can. But, shouldn't they also be able to.

get Pop-Tarts? Yeah. I know. Look, and your point is interesting. You remember there's a photograph, very. famous photograph. I don't know when it was done. 50s, maybe 60s, 70s, I don't know. Of. uh. the tobacco industry executives coming. before Congress and raising Remember. that photograph? Yes. Yes. And and the congressman said to them, tell me I I I maybe get this a little. bit wrong. Mhm. Are you aware that cigarettes kill. people?

No. No, congressman, we we have no. evidence to that effect, right? They. were lying through their teeth. Of course. All right. Yeah. And it's exactly Your analogy is. exactly right. Uh these food manufacturers know exactly. that they are causing obesity and God. knows what else in kids, leading to. diabetes. They know exactly what they're. doing. Right. lying. And they are opposing all of us. who are trying to, among other things, make our food supply healthier. Yeah, they are. And this is also a function of.

corporate America, right? This is a. function of wanting to do better in each. quarter, you know, having this endless. That's right. endless growth cycle where. they're they're never sa- They never. say, hey, we make X amount of money. every year. This is perfect. That's. right. Let's uh let's concentrate on. doing better for our community. even make that decision. The Wall Street. investors make that decision. You got to. make You got to make more. Right. Because the shareholders will be. like, there's no [ __ ] way. You need. to make more money. Otherwise, I'm. dumping your.

Your company's going to go in the. toilet. Right. Yeah. So, how I mean, this is what we have got to deal with as. a nation. It's not acceptable. All. right. Is it acceptable for food. companies to poison our kids? No. All. right. What are you going to do about. it? I I'm the senator, not you, right? It's a good question. Yeah, it's a solid. question. And I think the the things. that Bobby Kennedy is proposing and. implementing, I think are very valuable. First of all, getting all these. poisonous dyes and all these things that. have been kicked out of all these other. major companies, including Canada.

There's the same factories that make. these food products in America literally. have to make a different version of it. for Canada. And then they're complaining. that they can't do it because. economically it won't be profitable for. them anymore. But, you're already making. them. You're making them and you're. shipping them to Canada. brought me back from Canada. Fruit. Loops? I think it was Fruit Loops, actually. kind of plain. What? They don't have that bright pop to them. That cancer gives you. absolutely All right. I mean, so I think. this is, you know, it almost gets back. to the need to revitalize American.

democracy. and say to large corporations, you know what? You can't poison our. children. I don't think that's a. terribly radical concept. You can make. money. What? Make money. But, don't. poison our children. Uh say to large corporations, technology. is coming. That's good. But, you're not. going to use it just to throw workers. out on the street. But, let's go to that, too, because we. kind of glossed over that. We never got. back to it. So, automation comes. And one of the. things that Andrew Yang warned us about. a long time ago, and back then I I kind.

of saw it in the distance. I was like, yeah, he's got a real good point about. universal basic income. But, the. the the the speed in which it's. happening, I I didn't anticipate. And. when it, you know, we live in Austin, and when you go around Austin, you see. these Waymos everywhere. So, All right. I'm going to I'm going to. plead ignorance. Tell me what a Waymo. is. Waymo is a driverless automobile. So, you use a an app, you call a Waymo. A. lot of people like it cuz you don't get. a shifty Uber drivers trying to sell you.

fentanyl or whatever. Not Not saying. that they do that. Uber, don't sue me. Uh but the and they they're very. they're very good. They don't get in. accidents. They're They follow the speed. limit. They're good about merging. They're good about pedestrians. They. have cameras all around them spinning. I know. I see them. Yeah. They're very. effective. Yeah. And. what was really fascinating was during. these uh ice riots, they were lighting. those things on fire. And I was like, I disagree with that, but I also think. it's directionally correct.

You know, I mean, that that's your. enemy. Your enemy is automation. The. enemy of the human being, the a human. that lives in this functional society, and everybody has a task and get paid. for the task, automation's going to take all that. away. So, if you do say this, okay, we're going to lower your work week. What if there's no job left for the. human being to do? If the entire. assembly line, we talked about this. about China and some of their coal. factories. Um there was this video that.

I watched this coal factory in China, which is entirely automated. Every step. of the way. The trucks. No human beings at all? No human beings at all. I mean, there's. probably a few overseers that make sure. that all of systems are functioning. correctly. So, you have software. engineers and, you know, people that are. the repair people. But, the trucks even. park themselves next to the charging. station and recharge. Wow. And then they're moving 24 hours a. day unloading, documenting where.

everything is. It's all in computer. databases. It's wild to watch because. there's no people. It's all just. 24 hours a day machines. What do you do when there's no need for. these people? And what happens even with. universal basic income what we're. talking about? I support it. I I'm I'm a big supporter. of social safety nets. Look, when I was a kid, my family was on welfare. And we were on food stamps, too.

Like, if you don't have that, people go. hungry. Like, we again, if we're going. to support the community, we want people. to be able to survive and be able to. work their way out of that. My family. did work their way out of that. So, it was cool for me as a child to see. my parents struggling, but then succeed. and get out of it. What worries me. is that if all the jobs are gone and. everything gets automated, even if.

people have universal basic income, they. don't have meaning. Good. All right, you're you're touching on. really deep issues. Right. This is a big one because a lot. of people, you know, Work is an. car fixed, you go to Casey. He's the. best. He knows how to fix your car. And work gives, as you've just said, this word purpose. is an enormously important. I don't care. if you sweep the streets, people have a. purpose. They want to do their job well. It's work is an important part of our. lives. Is that right? Yes.

At the end of the day, your identity a. lot of times. Right. Yeah. And you want. to be a productive member of society. I'm contributing. Right. So, you were asked. the right question. And I think there and I you know, we can. just bat around. I mean, I don't have. any, you know, quick answers here, but I. think. the good news, you talk about this coal. mining thing and I'm not a great fan of. coal, but you know, that it's. automation, people do not have to do. dirty work, dangerous work. Is that.

good? Yeah, I guess it's good. But always we have to be thinking how it. benefits not just the bottom line of a. corporation, but the happiness and well-being of. human beings. So, if if what you're saying is that in. years to come, a significant part of work is going to. be done by machinery or by computers, whatever. I think that's inevitable. Okay. Then we have to rethink our own. purpose in life.

All right. Uh and it's not sitting around watching. TV 24 hours a day. So, I think you raised. the I would say the simple answer and. then you got to go a lot. further than that is to say that under. those circumstances of that kind of. technology, everybody has at least a. decent standard of living. All right. That people don't have to worry about, you know, survival. They don't have to. worry about food. They don't have to. worry about. increase profitability of this. corporation, provide a fund that's a.

universal basic income fund. If you're. going to replace all these people with. robots and you're going to be even more. profitable, share some of that profit. Then you'll be more profitable than if. these people just stayed working doing. nothing. Right? Well, I mean, I whether you will be or. not be, I think. Once the machines are running. everything, they're going to be running. 24 hours a day and you're not going to. have to pay the machines. It's going to. be more profitable. Right, of course it will be. And we want. to, you know, right now. in where was it? Jeez, I think, don't. quote me on this, maybe in Norway,

they have a huge wealth fund which came. from oil. They had publicly owned oil companies. They made a fortune. And they have like a trillion dollars in. their wealth fund for a small country. You know, so and they have free health. care, free college education, affordable. housing, all that stuff. Here it is. Norway's growing 1.7. trillion dollar oil empire. Uh Norges Bank investment management. market value growth since inception. at strike. Yeah. And they use that.

Government Pension Fund of Norway. There. you go. Well, yeah. So, they use that. those that that wealth fund. to provide probably the highest standard. of living in the world for people, you. know, free health care, education, all. that stuff. But that's what we got to be talking. about here. Use the profits that come, the wealth. that's created by this technology to. improve life for all the But it doesn't. answer the question that you raised. Of meaning. That's right. Yeah. So, what. do you do about that? Well, somebody was a workaholic, it. would be hard for me.

You know, cuz. Are you a workaholic? Yeah. Yeah. That Well, it's the nature of the. job. hobbies? Yeah, I got seven grandchildren. That's. a hobby. I used to play ball as a kid, you know, I was a good basketball player. Well, I. think people can find other things to do. with their time. Like, if I never worked. again, I'd probably play pool 8 hours a. day cuz I really love playing pool. Yeah. All right. I'd find a thing. I do jujitsu. I'd find. a thing that I find value in. You know,

I think somebody once wrote, you know, you think about what are the deepest. things? What's the goal in life? So, somebody says, work. And I believe that. I think. people, you know, one of the sad things. that's happened, you know, we talked a. little while ago about the decline of. you meant we mentioned Detroit and and. and other communities where people. worked hard, they were proud of what. they produced, right? Yes. They earned a decent living. Maybe they. had a union and so forth. And so on. That a lot of that is is gone. But all right, so work, love, you know,

we There is a thing called love, right? At the end of the day, Probably people. trying to find that on apps, too, now. Now, let's get to that one in a minute. Yeah. You know, to be humans, nobody. wants to be alone, right? Right. Uh you. want to embrace other people, you know, physically, sexually, emotionally, just. humanly, right? That's community. That's right. That's. being human. Yes. All right. So, you want love and. knowledge. I think you forgot the. knowledge part. Sure, you like pool,

that's good. Uh I I sadly enough, I have to confess. that when I was in college, I spent half. my life in the library. All right, you. know, so. that bad? No, I I'm just kidding. But knowledge. Sure. trying to understand things. And and. Curiosity. Curiosity, fantastic. Travel, my God. Yeah. You know, Absolutely. just came back from Ireland. You know, it's it's fantastic to see the world. And and. you know, when we talk about, you know, one of the things that I, you know, we. didn't talk about Trump much, but.

it bothers me is trying to divide us up. You know, we got to bring for so many. reasons, whether it's. all of these issues that we're talking. about and everything else, with. pandemics. You know what? We got to. bring the world together. Yes. Okay? And not hate people cuz they're in. Canada or they're in China or Iran. Ridiculous. All right. And that ain't easy, but we have to. When I was mayor, way back, I did this There was when the. Soviet Union still existed. Don't forget. this. We brought kids from a city in Russia,

Yaroslavl, an old city in Russia. And we brought them to Vermont and they. were kids, the boys and girls from. Russia would play, kid around with boys. and girls from America. You look at. these kids, they had a great time. You. know, people do not have to hate each. other. It's stupid. It's it's. even know them. EXACTLY. That's why you. hate them. It's the dumbest part about it. Yeah. All right, you know why people hate is. based on ignorance. Right? Yeah. And fear and, you know, there's a lot of stupidity attached to.

it that people exploit. They exploit. that stupidity, you know, and the guy. under the guise of nationalism. Exactly. Yeah. And and I hate that. I hate it. And by the way, I don't know that the. planet survives if we No. continue in. that way. So, the goal, you know, we. talk about. What's the greatest fear? The greatest. fear is thermonuclear war. Right. Yeah. Well, pandemics as well, let me tell. you. COVID was not the last one, but you. know, Well, the pandemic, the problem. with that is it's engineered. Like, people actually made that virus and.

Obama tried to stop that. gain-of-function [ __ ] back in 2014. Well, that's a long uh That's a long. conversation, but, you know, should we. be funding that kind of [ __ ]. not. No, no, no, no. No, and yet yet we were. But you're. going to have to bring the entire world. together. You know, it is. um. but I think, you know, we. have to bring the country together. first, right? And by the way, and you know, I've been. kind of. I've been kind of negative, but.

take a deep breath and we have made some. progress in this country in recent. years. If you think. about racial relations, all right? You. know, it wasn't that many decades ago. that some black kid couldn't go to a. movie theater in Mississippi, right? By the way, I want to tell you that when. people say like, why were you a fan of. Bernie Sanders? I point to a photo of. you getting arrested. at a civil rights. protest in I think it was '63. Sounds. right. Chicago. Yeah. I remember. Yeah.

You've always been at the forefront. You. you haven't changed. You know, and people always try to. accuse you of that, especially cuz you. made some money off your books, but you. haven't changed your positions through. the entirety of your career. Yeah, that's true. that's very admirable because there's. not a lot of people that serve in. Congress for as long as you have and. become, you know, a very prominent public figure. that don't just cash in. No. You know, when you you have people. that are public servants that are making.

$170,000 a year and yet they're worth. hundreds of millions of dollars. through some magical way that no one can. explain and you haven't done that. And I. think you should be applauded for that. Well, thank you very much. Now, I. remember. I mean, it's just, you know, you talk. about education and so forth. I grew up. in a, you know, in a white neighborhood. in in uh. Brooklyn. And, you know, you go to Chicago and you. see things that you didn't. didn't understand.

There you are. Look at that. God, look at the hair on my head at that. point, huh? Look how handsome. There you. go. That was I'll tell you that funny. story about that one. Please. All right. What the As I recall. Look at the guy with the cigarette. Nah, [ __ ] hippie. The guy with his hand in his pocket. Here is the story. This is the truth. Now, back then back then, the world has. changed. That's the Chicago Police Department. And uh. what they said is if you go across this. line, you're going to get arrested. As I.

recall, that was what they said. So, I. went across the line and we were. protesting segregated housing. in Chicago. Okay, so I get dragged in. them. And they're taking me to a paddy wagon, okay? Mhm. So, they picked me up. and other people in it, threw me into. the paddy wagon. My glasses went flying. some place, okay? All right. And then just as this was happening, within a few minutes of this picture. some genius on the sideline throws a. brick, hits a cop on the head. Oh, Jesus.

So, there's I'm being I'm being thrown. into the paddy wagon. Some cop is lying. down on the ground. You know, it was a. scary moment, okay? So, to continue the story, we're in the. paddy wagon. and uh they're taking us. some place. And suddenly. the paddy wagon stops. We look out. It's like the middle of. nowhere. Right? This was not like in the city. going to a jail. We we thought we were. going to be taken to a to jail, you. know? And I said, "Oh my god.".

They're going to kill us. Yeah. I mean, that was the thought. We're in the middle of Why the hell did. they stop here? Right. I don't know what they stopped. for, whatever he said. And then so we. spent, you know, my big thing was I. spent the night in jail, which was a. weird experience, too. street cred for that. What I remember about it is other than. not sleeping very well. this is you get up in the middle of the. night. I go to the thing. I try to open. the door. It didn't open. It was the. weirdest thing of having a door that did. not open because you're in a jail cell, you know? It's like a weird thing. Uh but anyway, you know, the idea, you.

know, that's all that and we've made. progress since that time and and. in racial relations. We have a long way. to go. We made progress. Women's rights, we've made progress. Gay rights, we've. made So, there's a lot that as a nation. we should be proud of. Uh and progress. that we've made. You know, when I was a. kid growing up. I am sure there were many kids who were. gay. No one ever talked about it. Right. Right. And you know, so there's a. lot as a nation that we should be proud. of in terms of the progress that we've. made in terms of fighting bigotry.

Agreed. But we got so much more to do. We don't need to be hating people and. trying You can disagree with people. Christ, you mean there's so many issues. out there. Hatred should not be a value. So, It's also the political exploitation of. division. The the the the fact that you can use. the division that people already have to. galvanize your side instead of unite. instead of unite the country. had white politicians in the south. saying, "See those black people? They. want your job. Vote for me and that's.

why we're going to keep segregation and. all this other stuff, all right?". Oof. Yeah, I mean, that's true. I mean, people ran for office. It's no great. secret. That's what happened. But we're. making gays are taking over the school. system, blah blah blah blah. So, it it's. you know, we've made progress, but I. you know, we but what we've been talking. about is. if you create. a society where you have massive. technology that can produce all of this. wealth, how do we live? Right? That's.

the question you posed. And I think one of the ways one of the. goals has got to be to bring this world. together to. we should not be having wars right now. What countries have disagreements? There. are bad news guys out there, no question. about it. But bring them to the table, argue it. out. Right. We don't have to go around. killing people. Right now, what's going. on in Gaza breaks my heart. Children are. starving to death. You know, so we can do better as a. planet. Unquestionably. Yeah, no, we all agree. I I think this.

is something the entire country could. agree to. The uh. the. the the the question of meaning, like. giving meaning to people, like just and. then my fear is also the same fear that. I had when I talk about climate change. that it's going to be exploited. Once. people are entirely dependent upon the. state for universal basic income, then. it becomes the question of like now your. entire life, like all the money that you. get being from the government. The.

problem is if you step outside the. lines, if you do anything that the the. government doesn't like, if there's the. the They pull the plug on you. Or if a new administration comes in and. says, "You know what? We we this is. unprofitable. These people have to. figure it out for themselves. The United. States is really 37 trillion dollars in. debt. We can't sustain this. People have. to do the you know, you have to adjust. Learn to code." Right. Right. Yeah, that kind of [ __ ]. Well, I. How do you give these people meaning?

Well, that's the thing. What do you do. with all the drivers? Like think about. how many truck drivers in this country. This is going to be the first thing that. goes away. You're right. Taxi cab drivers, Uber. drivers, truck drivers, gone. And the. question about like factory workers, a. lot of people say, "Yeah, well, those. people that those jobs are terrible. anyway. It'd be great if those jobs went. away and people, you know, they they're. free to pursue their interests." I'm. like, "What interest?". You got it. You're a 60-year-old man. You've been working for this factory. You're looking towards your retirement. and now all of a sudden the plug is. pulled. All the money's gone. Your 401k.

has been erased. Your company's been. bought out by another company. Now. everything's automated. There's no jobs. What do you do? Well, I think. that is the question. Right. So, if you. if you have what, you know, Andrew Yang. was talking about this giant epidemic of. automation in this country and the. solution being universal basic income, but that's not the solution for meaning. And. how do we convince all these people. uh that it's they have to.

not just take this money from the. government, but also take action to give. themselves meaning in their lives. What you're talking about here. you know, is a revolution in human. existence. That's so throughout history. people have worked so hard. just to stay alive, right? Right. that's so many Sure. hundreds of years. ago. Today Today. in parts of the world, people are. working. In America, right. And in the poorest. countries in the world, just struggling. every day to put a little bit of food on.

the table. So, what you're saying is what happens. when that. that plug gets pulled. Well, what you're. saying is what happens when those people. no longer have to do that, right? I. mean, okay. So, if work. we work now everybody works get our earn. money. If if you don't need to do work, right? Because we're wealthy enough. What how do you find meaning in your. life? Right. you're talking about. Yeah. Uh and this is absolutely That's a. million-dollar question. That is try the.

trillion-dollar question. It's a um. you know, it's one Well, I'll tell you. this. I was seeing I don't know him, Sam. Altman. Do you know Sam? Mhm. I don't know. But I mean, and others, Zuckerberg, you know, are. talking about, "Well, you know, if. you're lonely. we got a machine for you, right?". Right? I mean, true, yes? Yeah. This is what they're saying. We got a. friend for you on AI. Mhm. And her name. is Mary and you can chat with her 20. hours a day and she really loves you.

Man, I don't think that is. That's so dystopian. It is. It's very. Yeah, and we we we covered this story. recently about this guy who proposed to. his AI and she said yes and he was. crying. I'm like, "Oh, we're done. We're. cooked.". Look, I mean. at the end of the day, all we got is us. Yes. Is that right? Yeah. We are human. beings. Yeah. And we got to have to. cling to each other to get through this. thing. And you're raising again I I I'm.

trying to think here and I wish I had. better answers for you. You're asking. Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, the. question that you're posing is if in. years to come in the near future, technology is going to replace work, right? Human labor. Mhm. Correct? Yes. What do human beings. do? That's your question. now? Yeah. Uh and uh you know there are it's it's a. good because work has been so essential. to human existence forever, right? Right. And you're suddenly taking that.

away, what do people do? How do they. relate to each other? All I would say at. this moment. is the answer is not to fall in love. with your AI creature out there. Yeah, don't do that. But also, how do you find. meaning? How do you if if all you're. doing is just getting a check and you. you can just stay at home and stare at. the TV and the money keeps coming and. then you eat processed food all day and. it's all subsidized. What is life? Like what do you How do. you How do you re-educate a giant.

percentage of our population to find. meaning, external meaning? Find. something else. Find. a thing that you can do that not maybe. even that's profitable that these. computers can't do. Look, the human. brain evolves uh and I think we we. I mean, it's a great question. I don't. know the easy answer to it. And and It's the question, right? It's the question. It's not going to. happen Well, what's going to happen. tomorrow? You just talked about these uh.

automated cars and trucks. Yeah. That is going to happen in the very near. future. Yeah, that'll be step one. And. uh. to me, I have some answers for that one. and that is that you ain't going to. throw, you know, millions of truck. drivers. and taxi cab drivers and Uber drivers. out just out on the street. They need. protection. Right. All right. That's. That's an easy one. What you're talking. about is years later and. not even an easy one. No, that's not. easy. just step one. We know the real wave is.

going to be white-collar workers. I know that. There's a lot of people. that do things that they think are very. valuable that are going to be worthless. to have a human being do it. Right. I mean, that's the immediate. I think the deeper one that you're. talking about is what is when virtually. all workers replaced. Yes. All right. But right now, I mean, for a start. I think getting back to the point I. think you tell those workers you're. going to have health care as a human. right, you're going to have education as. a human right, you're going to have.

decent income as a human right. And we're going to lower substantially. lower the work week, so we'll have. in this process. we're going to have everybody working if. you're working 20 hours a week, you're. working 20 hours a week. What happens. later. when even more work is eliminated and. what the purpose of human life becomes. that is a very profound question. That's. the question. What do you think happens? I think I mean, it's hard to imagine,

you know, because it's so. far away from what we have ever lived. Right. I mean, for thousands of years. people have struggled to put food on the. table. And you're saying what happens. when they don't have to do that? Right. Yeah. It's inevitable. All right. Then the. answer will be that we're going to have. to find different meaning in life. We. have to find it in ourselves in ways. that you don't know and I don't know cuz. we're not there yet. We're not living 50. years from now. I don't even think it's. 50.

Well, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, who knows? Uh but I think human beings are capable. of finding. replacing work with. other emotionally satisfying things. Yeah, I think we can do it. We can on an. individual basis. The problem is having. mass groups literally a hundred million. plus people displaced. What do you What do you do to all those. people to give them some sort of a sense.

of meaning? You're You're essentially. redefining life That's That's a good. point. Okay, I don't have the answer to that. question. That's the problem. I don't. think anybody does. And I think we're. foot on the gas full steam ahead with AI. with. no consideration of this. And then. there's the same thing that you're. dealing with in terms of corporations. constantly trying to achieve higher and. higher and higher numbers. They're just. always trying to make more money. You're. You've got this exact same issue when.

applied to meaning for all these human. beings. Like if you have a hundred. million plus people that. what do they do now? They just sit at. home and become depressed. And they just. make enough money to what? To just be. able to get by? What do What about. savings? What about the ability to earn. more money to get ahead? What about the. very ambitious people that are willing. to put in extra hours and go to night. school and do everything they have. That's all gone, right? So what do these. hyper ambitious people do? What What.

does everybody who's displaced by this. very impersonal thing this impersonal. thing that you need because you can't. compete with China. I agree with everything you're saying. except. there is something else that's going on. in this. While all this is going on, while all this technology is throwing. people out on the street, something else. is happening. The people who own that. technology and the corporations who. utilize utilize that technology are. becoming phenomenally richer, right? Exactly. And that is That is the issue, which gets back to things like tax.

reform. like making sure that in America. we do not have the massive levels of. income and wealth inequality that we. currently have. But the problem with. that is the taxes go to what? An. incompetent corrupt government? This is. This is the issue that people have. Good. Fair enough. All right. Willing to. pay our fair Look, I'd be more than. willing to pay more taxes if we lived in. a better country. I'd be like, this. would be great if I if I felt like if I. paid more taxes and. everybody's surviving, everybody's doing.

well, that's great. All right. Then. that is the issue of how you revitalize. American democracy. I'm not going to argue with you that the. system today is pretty bad. All right. I. live it. I'm going going there today. And ironically, it's bad because there's. no competition. Right? It's corrupt, but. it's also it's not a free market. Like. the the government itself has a monopoly. on governing. And when they're. completely corrupt and when they're. making insane amounts of money through. taxes and they're not accountable.

I'm not But by the way, I'm not. advocating for making it privatized so. making all of government privatized. I'm. just talking about the realities of. corruption in in our current government. system. Let's talk about what we mean by. corruption. I do not believe by the way. cuz I know these guys, you know, some of. them are corrupt. Okay, let's say. incompetent and waste. Okay. All right. Let's Let's back it up. We can take fraud out of the equation. and just talk about incompetency and. waste. Is there waste? You got it. All.

right. But let me let me back it up. again. Okay. Because I think it ties. into everything else that we're talking. about. You know why I believe in. democracy? And why I believe. among what we didn't talk about is we. brought in some money. to Vermont and elsewhere I think for. helping workers own their own companies. Right. Are you familiar with that. concept? Yes. Yes. And I meet every year with with in. Vermont we had a We're doing pretty. well. Number of And.

when workers own their own companies. you talk about a sense of purpose. They. They are more than just a cog in the. machine. Yes. You know, they make decisions and. they feel good about it. Absenteeism is. less, productivity is higher because. they have a real stake in the thing. Okay. So I think as a nation we should be. talking about moving toward allowing. workers more power. But getting back to. government itself.

the corruption is in my view. that government is very far removed from. the needs of ordinary people because it. is largely controlled. by billionaires in both. political parties who have their agenda. Yes. All right. One of the things that I. do what my campaigns for president were. about what I'm doing right now what. you're doing what we call a fighting. oligarchy tour That's why I'm in Texas. Is to try to say to the people out there. who are mostly working class people.

you got to get involved. I know it's. hard. People are working long hours. You got to get involved in the political. process. You got to make demands. on government that it serves you not. just the very wealthy. So to answer your. question, I think one of the. goals not only we've talked about how. you deal with the exploding technology. and well how people gain purpose. the other thing is I want people to be. able to take control over their own. government. We can argue what the.

government should or should not do. But I don't think we. can allow a handful of people handful of. people with incredible wealth to control. both parties. Well, it's dangerous. It. is. It's very dangerous and I mean, no. one who the the founding fathers of this. country never saw that coming. That's. right. they made this incredible system of. checks and balances, but who could have. ever possibly saw that coming? And what. I worry about Trump. and is. you're right. You know, I read it is.

astounding back in the 1780s when these. guys wrote the Constitution how. perceptive they were. Amazing. Yeah. I. mean, they said. of human desires and the the power and. the corruption. Pretty amazing. And they wrote that. having just fought a war and won a war. against the most powerful despot. on Earth, the King of England, right? Right. And I think in the back of their. minds was saying, all right, we just. beat the King of England, absolute. power. How do you create.

a new country. which has checks and balances so that. nobody ever has that power again. Right. And I got to say, I mean, one of the. things that I was a lot arguments about. Trump. that worries me very very much is this. movement toward authoritarianism. And. going after media, suing media. taking away. the authority that Congress has. When you say suing media, are you. talking about the CBS lawsuit? Among other things. Right, but don't you.

think there's a real issue with what. they did? No. You don't think that. there's a real issue in editing. conversations to give someone an answer. that's different than what they really. answered? Joe, I've been on eight zillion shows, right? In my life. Okay. Now, should I sue you if you ask me some. stupid question. that I don't like, right? Okay. Or that you do something. Do I have a. right Should I sue you? Yeah, but that's. not what he's getting He's suing for. He has sued ABC. Mhm. He has sued Meta.

He is suing the Des Moines Register. because of a poll that came out during. the campaign that he didn't like. All. right. He is suing CBS for this Kamala. Harris interview. So do I think. How many I cannot tell you the number of. stories done about me that were based. They were not good stories. They were. dishonest stories. That's what a free press is about. You. don't like it, you got to live with it. All right. You do something I'm not. going to sue you, Joe. Right, but it's. not that simple, right? Like let's. imagine Let's not talk about Trump, but.

let's talk about another candidate. Let's Let's imagine there's someone on. the right and someone on the left and. there's a there's a a concerted effort. to promote this person that's on the. right. And so the polls are rigged or. these are funded polls that make it look. like this person on the right is is. winning by a substantial margin and what. this does is decreases the motivation. that people have to come out and vote. against them. So it's fake. By the way,

that happens right now. It is happening. right now and I think is that part of. what he's suing them about? No, but doesn't look But isn't that what. he's suing them about? Well, he's suing. ABC for one thing. but but with the Des Moines Register. about the poll. Yeah, this I know the. pollsters there. Was the poll incorrect? Yeah, the poll was wrong. So what? Guess. what? But what what did they know it was. incorrect when they published it? No, they published what they thought was. an accurate poll. They but that pollster. by the way. What's the name I can't Celsus polls. I. don't I should just state for the record.

I don't know this lawsuit. All right, what it was about. am aware that in talking to people that. understand polls that some of these are. politically All right, the answer is yes or no. There are polls right now doing exactly. what you say. I can doctor a poll. I can. talk to more conservative more. progressive people get the results that. I kind of want, right? And they do it to motivate people or. demotivate people to vote and it's. effective. It has an impact. All right. On the other hand, this particular.

pollster that's the Des Moines Register. not a huge newspaper. I I bumped into. them cuz when you're running Democratic. primaries Iowa is a big deal. They are a. very very respected pollster. Okay, they. don't doctor polls. So they made a. mistake on a poll. It turns out they had. Trump doing worse than he ended up. doing. Guess what? Pollsters honest. pollsters make mistakes too. But what is. the basis of his lawsuit? Like what is. he saying in the lawsuit? saying that that gave energy to his. opponents and that it was. Like we talked about.

Like you talked about but I don't. believe that's the case. There are. honest pollsters who make mistakes. But. what about the other the the the other. lawsuit with the the conversation that. they had with Kamala Harris where they. edited the answers that she had to make. it look more precise. 60 Minutes they were suing 60 Minutes is. to my mind historically even around for. a very long time. You know, they're not infallible but I. think you look at most. objective people will say 60 Minutes has.

a sterling reputation for investigative. journalism. Are they wrong? But that's not investigative journalism. if you change someone's answers. If you. ask her a question and she comes with a. rambling answer that doesn't make sense. and you edit that out and insert another. answer to a different question that. seems more cogent. Joe then you're walking down. it's a really you're walking down a. dangerous path. Suing media has the.

impact of intimidating media. All right, if somebody sues you, all right, let me. finish. All right. Okay. Somebody sues. you, you know, why not you? You could be sued tomorrow, right? Because you are doing this you're you're. too sympathetic to this and Joe you did. that and they have a big law firm behind. you and you're going to have to spend. zillions of dollars defending yourself. You know what? Next time you do an. interview you say, maybe I'm not going to go in that area. No, but it's not that. It's editing. things to make this deceptive editing. Joe So in deceptive editing you give.

people a different perception of who. this candidate is than reality. But. that's not but that's not objective. journalism. But that's campaigning for. that person. But Would you agree with that? I don't. I'm not I don't have those details. I. don't know that I agree with. your analysis of it. I don't know. enough. that's universally accepted that that's. what they did. Then you got to tell me why he is suing. ABC. Why he is suing meta? just talk about the 60 Minutes one. first. We can go to ABC but I don't I'm not. aware of that one either. Well, George Stephanopoulos said.

something that he didn't like. What did. Stephanopoulos say? I can't remember it. was a. I don't I honestly don't remember but. Well, I think what he was saying was. factually incorrect about the results of. one of Trump's trials. All right. Guess. what? If I were to sue everybody who said. things that were factually incorrect. about me. I'd be suing people zillions of times. Joe, what you're saying is look. is does media get it wrong sometimes?

Absolutely. Should you have the most powerful person. in America suing media? What is the. impact of that? The impact is clearly. intimidation. He wants to defund. public broadcasting. NPR, why is that? Well, because they. also would run critical stories of them. This is part in my view without getting. into any one case, it's part of a. pattern that says, hey, I got the power. Don't you criticize me. You criticize. me, I'm going to sue you. So it's not.

whether this show was right or wrong. There are shows every day they get it. wrong. It's whether you. you know, you respect you and other. media people to do the best that you. can. And if I don't like what you're. doing I'll go someplace else. But I don't like presidents suing. media and then it's you know, it's. threatening to impeach judges who rule. against you, really? Is that a concern? I think it's a. concern. I I agree that's a concern. Well, my. concern is when you have media. organizations that are purported to be.

objective and then they say things that. are defamatory and factually incorrect. and they should know that before they. say it. What other course does a person have. other than a lawsuit? And isn't it important that you shine. the light on what is a political bias. and where we are from an organization. that you would hope would be objective? Needless to say, I get attacked all the. time by right-wing media, right? Every day. Needless to say.

Needless to say, all right. I don't sue. them. So you expose them. So he's the. president of the United States. say things factually incorrect and. defamatory and slanderous? If there's. anybody in the world who knows how to. use a microphone, his name is Donald. Trump. And Donald Trump get up show that. program on CBS the other day. It was. crap. It was wrong. Let me tell you why. it was wrong. But it then they do it again and again. and again. Then you take them on. And. the problem is the more people do stuff. like that, if you don't have any. consequences to what you're doing, you're going to continue that path and.

the most most people only see that. They're not like if you're a left-wing. leaning media organization and you print. something that's factually incorrect or. you say something on television that's. factually incorrect, your viewers who. are left-leaning are most likely not. going to see Trump's rebuttal in some. speech that he does in the middle of. Pennsylvania. But that's another problem. and that is. you know, meeting our media is becoming.

very divided. Okay, but all I would say is. So you don't think that lawsuits against. that are valid? I don't think that it is appropriate for. the president of the United States to be. in my view intimidating. media. Again, I get attacked I'll be. attacked tomorrow for a hundred probably. things I said on the show I'll get. attacked. Then if I want to respond, I respond. I. have a you know, not a president's bull. I have a bull. I say, you see nothing on. Fox, they're wrong. And I've done that.

But when you Joe, you got to take it. another way. Give you an example about. CBS. We talk about corporate power. The owners of CBS is owned by Paramount. Big multimedia corporation, right? Sure. Paramount's. wants to sell. uh. wants to be sold to what is it? Blue. Sky, is that ring a bell? Blue Sky is that social media app.

No, then it's another one. I'm sorry. It's uh I always forget the name of it. Skydance, thanks. Uh Skydance is a is a large media. corporation that. Paramount wants to have buy. Okay. To. get this merger, huge merger, they have. to go guess what? To the federal. government. All right. So. you are the head of CBS. You want to. sell the company to Skydance for many. many billions. Do you remember how much. what was the sale? I don't see here. It's billions of dollars.

to be sure. And you got to go to the federal. government and the president sues you. What do you think you're going to do? You're going to settle the lawsuit, give. him some millions of dollars and get. your merger approved. All right. So. look, I see a problem in that. All. right, and I see the I see where you're. coming from. We want honesty in media. But all I can tell you. is that the way to respond to the lies. which take place every day. is to take them on, not to intimidate.

media. You know, the we talked about the. Constitution. What's the First. Amendment? It's freedom of speech. Right. You're right. You're sitting. here. You disagree with me, God bless. you. Say what the hell you want to say. All right, I'll never take that away. from you. Right. not going to threaten you with a. lawsuit. But if you start suing Hey, Joe Rogan. said this. No, no, no, no. Joe Rogan has. this. We found that about Joe Rogan. I'm. going to sue Joe Rogan for a trillion. million dollars. Joe may not talk about those issues in. the future. Okay? That's what I'm saying, Joe. I. know I agree with you and listen, I'm.

not a fan of lawsuits either which is. why I never sued CNN. I've never done it. CNN lied about me. over and over and over again. They said. I was taking horse dewormer and they. altered the color of my face on. television to make me look green. I can testify you ate green. I didn't sue them. I'm not a fan of and. my my response to them was just speak. out and say how ridiculous it was what. they were doing. at any Look, anybody in the public eye, are you in the public eye? I'm in the. public eye. You get attacked every day,

right? All. That's what you're in the public eye. You don't want to be in the public eye, put down the microphone. Agreed. Yeah, cool. What do No, I agree with you. All. right. So, I mean So, I I just worry I. also agree that CBS shouldn't be. altering a presidential candidate's. interview. I agree too. I mean I don't. know enough about it. So, I'm not going. to say what is isn't. All I know is that. 60 Minutes. has is a well-respected program. Do they. make mistakes? But that's not a mistake. All right. I don't know enough about it. So, I can't I can't.

I understand. All right. What else you got for me? I. should I should get a plane to get out. of here. You probably should. Um I mean I I. appreciate your positions on all all. these different things. And I appreciate, by the way, one of. the, you know, we talked about media. and the bifurcation of media, you know, right-wing people talk to right-wing. people, left-wing people talk to. left-wing people. I happen to think that the development. of podcasts is a really positive step. Cuz I can tell you you I've been on a. million TV shows. All right, Bernie, literally you got 7 seconds to explain.

the issue. Well, I can't explain it. Nobody can. Yeah. And the fact that you. give people a couple hours to sit here. and have a good discussion and be a good. host and trade ideas, I think that. improves life in America and helps. people think about things. So, thank you. for what you're doing. My pleasure. And. I think that one of the things this. conversation highlights is that there's. a lot of issues that all Americans agree. on. And this. ridiculous position that we find. ourselves in where you have to be. ideologically opposed to one thing.

because your side supports the other. thing, it's just terrible for all of us. And if we looked at the issues that. really face our country and our citizens. and our human beings that live here as a. community, we agree on almost all of them. We agree. that you should have a better life, that. you should have healthier people, we. should have health care and education, we should have safer streets, we should. have a. a community that lets people do what. they want to do as long as they're not.

harming other people. And I think the. the divide that we have in this country. accentuates the farthest ends of each. end of the political spectrum, not. recognize that most of us exist in the. middle. I think we share a common humanity and I. think Look, why am I I just was in this. file fighting oligarchy. Do you know. where I was? I was to Oklahoma, one of the more. conservative states in the country. I. was to Louisiana, we are in Texas,

precisely because I mean I think we have. so much more in common. And let's focus. on how we can create a better life for. all of us. So. Absolutely. You're doing. a great job. Thank you, sir. Thanks very. much. Take care. You, too. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye, everybody.