Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. Hello, Beth. Hello. This is very great to see you. again. I am pleased to be here. It's. been really interesting getting to talk. to you and communicating with you and. all the stuff that you guys have done at. Colossal has been insane. So, why don't. just tell everybody what your background. is and what you do? I'm a scientist. I.

work in a crazy field called ancient. DNA, sometimes called paleoggenomics. It. means we go out into the world, we dig. [ __ ] up, and we extract DNA from it. And. what is fantastic about that is it's. being a modern-day explorer. I get to go. somewhere, I get to find out something. new that completely rewrites what we. thought we knew, and it's brilliant. And. I get to fight with people a lot. And. because I love to fight, I recently quit. my academic job and moved to become the. chief science officer at Colossal, the.

company that has just made those. direwolves. Why do you like to fight. with people? Oh, I don't really like to. fight with people. I just felt like it. was the right thing to say at this. minute. I end up fighting with people. though, not because I want to, but. because I feel like I have to defend. what I think is the way that we should. be doing science. Well, it's certainly a. controversial subject and you guys are. certainly groundbreakers. So, whenever. there's a controversial subject and. people are groundbreakers, you're. without doubt going to get a lot of push.

back and a lot of people that just want. attention, a lot of people that are. angry that you're getting attention. It's there's a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, there's a big I think in academia. in particular, there's this big scarcity. mindset and this leads people to be kind. of negative about everything. Well, that's going to be too hard. If I say. that that's good, then that means that. the thing that I want to do probably. isn't going to get that money. Or if you. get attention, that means I can't get. attention. And it leads to this. negativity that I think stifles. innovation. There's a lot of.

gatekeeping, too. You know, we talked. about that recently. There's a lot of. people that want to be the only people. that are allowed to either discuss or. work on things. Yeah. I've spent my. whole life working on this. Therefore, I. am the only expert. And if anybody says. something that disagrees with what I. believe to be true, they're just wrong. I'm not even going to think about it. They're just wrong. It's unfortunate. But fortunately, we live in a very. unique time where you can do podcasts. and podcasts get extraordinary amounts.

of attention. And so I think that's also. one of the reasons why people push back. so much as well. It's because they they. don't like that. They don't like that. there's this unique distribution. network. Yeah, there are going to be. people there are going to be colleagues. of mine that are angry with me that I. have come here to talk to you and that. is part of the problem. Yeah, it just. seems kind of silly, you know, but the. subject without all that stuff, the. subject is absolutely fascinating. So, how did you get started in this? Like.

what did you initially want to do when. you first started your career? I. actually started in broadcast. journalism. I really I was in high. school. I was convinced that I wanted to. work in broadcast journalism. I got a. job working at the local TV station. I. grew up in Rome, Georgia, northwest. corner of Georgia. And I got a job with. the TV station where I was first. operating the camera and helping people. write copy. And then I got to be on air. I auditioned for a spot in the morning. where I would do local cutins on.

headline news in the like 24 and 54. after the hour. But I had to wake up. really early in the morning and go to. work. I was in high school. go to work, write the script, go on TV, learn to. read the teleprompter. It was pretty fun. and eventually got and I was convinced. that this is what I wanted to do with my. career. I went to the University of. Georgia. They have a fantastic broadcast. journalism school. I started off as the. news director at one of the local radio. stations. And this job, let's just say, wasn't particularly compatible with. being a freshman in college. There was.

there were mornings when I was locked. out of the bathroom, but I had only been. asleep for one and a half hours after. being out for too late at night doing. things that I shouldn't have been doing. because I was underage, right? And had. to go to work to write the news and then. be on this broadcast radio station. It. was terrible. Anyway, how did I move. from there to science? I took this uh. took this amazing class. It's similar to. a class that I ended up teaching at UC. Santa Cruz recently where um it was a.

field geology and archaeology program. and we started off on the east coast. We. learned about rocks and how to identify. minerals and then we drove across the. country and slept outside in national. parks and learned about the history of. North America, the geological history, the human history, everything while. being there in person. drove up the west. coast, drove back around the country. It. was nine weeks. And I thought to myself. while I was there, this is the story.

that I want to tell. I I want to show. how people have changed this landscape. over and over and over again and about. the opportunities that we have to be. able to become more creative controllers. of this landscape. So, I thought I'll. get a degree in science because my I. know how to do broadcast journalism. You. know, the the ignorance of somebody who. thinks they're an expert in something, right? I know how to do that. So, I'll. just do this other thing. Um, and that's. that's the history of it. I just kind of. got sucked into being the scientist. I've written a couple of popular books,

which is still me trying to reach back. out. I want to be a communicator, but I. also want to be a scientist because it's. so much fun. So, you just followed your. fascination, which is the best advice. anyone could ever get. Yeah. Yes. How. did I pick a field working in ancient. DNA? This is something I had no idea. about. I ended up not getting the. scholarship that I wanted to get and not. getting into the university that I. wanted to get into, but wandering around. the halls of the university that I did. get into. And I met this guy called Alan. Cooper who was one of the few people in.

the world at the time, this was the late. 1990s, who'd set up the special kind of. lab that you need to be able to extract. DNA from bones. So, this DNA is in. terrible condition. So, we have to have. a a purpose-built clean room to make. sure that we don't spit in something or. drop an eyelash in something because. then your DNA, which is in great. condition, will be the thing that we. amplify. So, we had one of these labs. and I thought, well, that's kind of cool. because I was interested in geology. I. was interested in human history. Maybe I. can use this as a way of telling stories.

that haven't been told before or. rewriting the stories that we keep. telling. This was a time where we were. learning a lot about human history and. human ancestry and there was a lot more. to be learned. And so I thought this. would be cool, but I wasn't sure. And. Allan said, um, well, you know, it'd be. cool. This would be fun. Plus, if you. join my lab, you can go to Siberia. And. I was in. I was like, yeah, sure. That. that's that's the deal for me. I'll go. to Siberia. Whoa. So, you got sent to. Siberia. That's usually what they do to. you in the Soviet Union when you're bad. Yeah. Well, I mean, I have had several.

not amazing experiences in Siberia, but. overall, it's been it's been fun. I've. been a couple of times. Uh, yeah. What. time of year did you go? Summer. Wow. Yeah. So, the first time I went, it was. for a meeting. Uh, and I spent some time. in Moscow first as a guest of one of my. Russian collaborators. And then we went. out to this meeting in Yakutsk. And we. got a on a boat. What I learned about. Siberia is that everything goes wrong. There's no bit of infrastructure that. functions the way it's supposed to.

function. And I learned that initially. We ended up on this boat that was 2. hours late. It was warm and hot. And. there are so many mosquitoes. I was. going to ask you about that. I've heard. the mosquitoes are insane. So crazy. Like one of the times I was out in. Taima, the north central Taimir. peninsula, and we had brought with us. this weird tent that we'd set up so that. we could go inside and take the masks, take the masks off of our face because. you always have to wear a hood otherwise. you'll be breathing mosquitoes. And we. were going outside and playing this game. where we would just clap our hands in.

front of our face and then count how. many you killed. And one time I killed. something like 35 mosquitoes in one. clap. And it's just awful. It's It's. miserable. So they're trying to sting. you through your clothes. They're just. Yeah. And they're big too, right? Well, it depends the time of year. And early. in the season they're really big and you. can catch them fast and then they get. different species come out that are. smaller and smaller and toward the end. of the season they're really tiny. Once. I was up in the north of Alaska on the. Ickpikpuck River, we were floating down. the river looking for mammoth bones and.

tusks and things like that. And um it. had been windy for the first few days, so it was fine. And I was this was my. first time out in the field actually. It. was northern Alaska. And I was like, "These mosquitoes, people keep telling. me there's mosquitoes. They're full of. [ __ ] There's no mosquitoes out here.". Right? The wind is blowing. Then the. wind dies down and then it's like, "Oh. fuck." Like this is awful. There was a. moose that was ahead of us for a while. and this poor animal. We were following. the river and he would every few steps. he would just totally submerge his body. in this frozen water and then come back.

up like the mosquitoes are just Yeah. something else. I've only been to. Anchorage. Uh well, I've been to a. couple spots of uh Alaska, but I was in. Anchorage and when I was there, it was. the summertime. We were salmon fishing, my friend Ari and I. And we got bug. repellent because we heard you got to. spray mosquito spray. We stepped out of. the car. The moment we opened up the car. door, there was a cloud of mosquitoes. We're shrieking like little girls were. like, "Ah!" Like, "What the hell?" It.

was It was I'd never experienced. anything like it in my life. Like, where'd they come from? Right. You don't. expect it. There was nothing there. Like, it did wasn't like we saw a cloud. of mosquitoes, but we opened up. There. was an impossible amount of mosquitoes. They got into the car. It's terrible. In. Time, I remember we would walk along the. grass, this tall grass with little. flowers in it. Exactly the kind of place. you could imagine mammoths roaming and. being like the kings of the universe. there. But as you were walking, you. would kick up the grass and they would. just emerge off of the off of the.

needles of grass. It was just really. awful. Well, they're so aggressive. because they only have like three months. to live. Yeah. And I learned actually. because I was curious about this. How do. they survive if there are so few. red blood? Because mosquitoes mostly. they take a they only take a it's only. the females that take a blood meal and. they only take a blood meal when they're. making a eggs or making a brood. They. take it to reproduce otherwise they feed. on nectar. So how do these how does so. many mosquitoes survive in the Arctic if. there's so few animals there? And it.

turns out those mosquitoes are adapted. to this climate and they don't need a. blood meal to reproduce but they do. better if they get one. So they're after. you but they don't need you. Whoa. Kind. of makes it worse, right? Whoa. It's it. it really is fascinating how aggressive. they are. Yeah. Because if you know. Texas has mosquitoes, but they can live. all year round, so they're kind of. chill. They're not that worried about. you. My boss was so funny, too. Alan. Cooper, the guy I went to work with, he. was all, "Oh, I'm going to just wear. this natural mosquito repellent, and you.

don't need any of the stuff that. actually has poisons in it. Look at me. at my natural." And we're out there, and. the the wind dries down, the mosquitoes. come, and I'm with my de. I'm like, you. know, your natural repellent. He's. going, "Sh, do you did you bring the. de?". Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You give up on. that natural stuff real quick. I was. watching a documentary where they're. using pine pitch. There's a Have you. ever seen Wernner Herszog's film uh. Happy People, Life in the Tiger? It's. really good. It's really fascinating. He. follows these people that live on the. Tiger River in Siberia. Cool. And it's.

all these subsistence people that are. like fishing and trapping and they're. living in these little cabins and they. bring dogs with them everywhere. They. travel around on snowmobiles. really. Well, it's what what's amazing about it. is the title is happy people. They're. all happy. That's what's so weird. It's. like these people have a very hard life, but yet they're always smiling and. they're having a good time and you know, living this subsistence lifestyle. somehow or another is like very.

fulfilling at like a I don't want to say. a genetic level, but like an internal. level. Like there's something about it. that like this makes sense. Whereas. society like today, I don't think it. makes sense because I think we, you. know, you're a geneticist, you. understand genes. We essentially have. the same genes that people lived 10,000. years ago had. Right. Very different. world. Right. Right. And we're not. really designed for this world, right? Well, you can see that in the increased. rates of obesity, increased rates of. diabetes. We're not also depression,

anxiety, all that stuff. And this is. what happy people's kind of all about. I. mean, Warner Herszog is this, you know, he's brilliant and so he's narrating. this whole thing, too. You kind of get. this understanding of his appreciation. for these people that are living this. very. basic life. Yeah. But are very happy. Yeah. It's impressive. When we were up. there in Time, we'd flown for a couple. days in this really awful Russian. helicopter that took off the third time. it tried to because, you know, infrastructure doesn't work in Siberia.

It was a repeated theme from you got in. a Siberian helicopter at a place. It was. in it was an MI8 and it was it was in it. was in a place called Hatanga which is. where we were based while we were trying. to get out into into and they kept. loading all of our gear into this and. it's mostly these massive gas tanks and. you load all the gear into the gas tanks. and then all of the people we had a dog. Pasha who was with us who did not want. to get in that helicopter. I think the. dog was the smartest person in our. expedition in our expedition team. But.

they would load us up and they would try. to start the helicopter and it wouldn't. start and they would unload us. We would. go back to the places we were staying. and then they would tinker with it and. fix it. Anyway, we we flew out. We got. in the helicopter finally. We got up. into the air and then the Russian and u. French leaders of our expedition team. decided that they were going to. celebrate finally having taken off in. this helicopter by smoking. Right. We're. sitting on the gas tanks, right? In this. helicopter that we already think, right? Fortunately, the helicopter had some.

missing windows. So, you know, there was. Oh, boy. There was air flow. It was. fine. No, this was insane. This whole. this this particular ex expedition was. particularly insane compared to other. things. Also in the I'm going to get to the. story and eventually, but also in in. part of this, we were traveling forever. out into this part of the time where. they had predicted that we would be able. to find mammoth bones and woolly rhino. bones and all the bones of the animals. we're interested in. And so we're flying. out there and we start to land and I'm. thinking, great, we're there. I get out.

of this crazy firebomb in the air that. I'm in. We're going to We land. No, no, we did not get off. Instead, we picked. up a random family that had been out. there on their own. parents, a child. Yeah, it was two parents and a child. And they had a backpack with their gear. and a massive cooler, right? That's what. they had. No words. They're French. They. speak French to the team that's there. People are conver having a conversation. in Russian. And then we take off again. And I'm thinking, was that planned to. pick these people up or were they.

trapped? I think it was planned. Just. there was a lack of communication, but whatever. The helicopter took off. twice and then it landed and everybody. unloaded and we set up the the the tent, the camp. And we discovered over the. course of the next few days, you know, we built these cool boats, the Zodiacs, you blow them up and you bring out the. outboard and you put them on the lake. and we're looking around and we. discovered that we had landed in a place. where we were going to be for six weeks. that had been glaciated during the last. ice age, which meant that our chances of. finding what we wanted were really.

small. Oh no. You know, it was. devastating. And the the Russian we had. a cook with us. The Russian cooks had. brought um medical ethanol because it. weighed less per unit of alcohol than. vodka which they would normally bring on. the helicopter. So they brought medical. ethanol to drink. And whoa. Well, you. know, you can only take so much stuff. with you because it weighs less than. alcohol. That's a crazy decision. Well,

you know, they they decided it was safe. Anyway, by 3 days in, it's 24-hour. sunlight. We're at 72 degrees latitude. Did you try it? Um, the medical ethanol. I tried the medical ethanol. I mean, obviously, right? You water it down with a little bit of. river water and you have it with your. freshly caught fish that you've filleted. and Yeah, it's great. Yeah, we had fish. and rice for the whole time. That was. So, you had to catch your food. We had. to catch our food. Yes. Luckily, it's. probably a lot of fish up there. fish.

and there were some geese and some ducks. that they would try to shoot while we. were on our zodiacs normally without. telling us that they were about to. shoot. It was a very logistic. So you. just hear boom and then the thing would. or you'd be sitting there looking at. something and suddenly the Zodiac would. take off because whoever was in charge. had seen something he wanted to shoot at. in the distance. Anyway, I don't know why I'm telling. this story. It's because it's fun. It's. a fun story. So we were there. were. there for I don't know maybe it was two. or three days looking around and it was.

about 2 o'clock in the morning the we. were inside this little tent that we'. built so that we could eat in it sort of. the kitchen tent where we were and it. was a big mesh tent to keep the. mosquitoes out so we didn't have to have. everything and everybody is just staring. off into the distance glumbly the. medical ethanol was gone you know. everybody was sober we were going to be. for the next five weeks we were going to. be stuck in this place where we weren't. be able to find what we were and then. all of a sudden these three dudes show. up outside of our tent with machine. guns, right? And I'm thinking, everybody's thinking, "What the fuck?".

Like, we just flew forever in a. helicopter over nothing at all. Nothing. except for this French family that we. picked up randomly along the way. And. everybody's looking around and there's. this real moment of what the hell are we. going to do? And then the guy who was. the expedition leader recognizes these. two dudes and he's like, "Oh, friends. Oh, good to see blah blah blah. And. we're I'm thinking what's going to. happen when they realize we don't have.

any more vodka, medical ethanol, right? That's and it turns out that they are. they were um members of the Dolgon. community, which is an actual family of. subsistence people that still live up on. the time air. They heard reindeer and. they had seen the helicopter and had. wondered what we were up to and just set. out over the landscape that they. normally live on to try to find us. Wow. Yeah. Pretty cool, actually. That's. cool. So, did you hang out with those. people? Well, we did. They were.

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your body, designed to help you improve. your performance, longevity, and overall. health. Join now at join whoop.com/jre. That's join.whop.com/jre. That's a theme. It's a theme. It was. Russia, so it's a fair theme. And but. the French couple, this is just you're not going to believe. me when I say this, right? Okay. The.

French couple said, "I got this." And. they get up and they go back to their. little tent area that they'd set up in. the middle of nowhere and they bring. back their cooler and they open it up. and inside. is cheese. like a massive guda. and a massive bree like why I don't. know. I don't know. Right. But they had. cheese and so we cut the cheese and.

shared the cheese with our Doggon. friends and they were happy. And the. next day we took them back with the. Zodiacs to their to their community. And. you know what was most amazing about. this experience and it it everything. about it was cool. We saw these people. that were living in these tiny little. huts in part of the world where it goes. to 40 below and it doesn't matter if. it's Fahrenheit or Celsius because they. cross at that level, right? 40 below and. during the winter for months and dark. and they're hurting reindeer and they're.

living in these tiny little things that. they cut in half during the winter so. that half of it is used for heating and. half of it is used for the family to. live in. Everything that they own is on. these things on skids that the reindeer. drag across the tundra across the. perafrost in in the snow or in the. summer trying to find the land for the. animals to graze. And this is how they. live. And that was the only time in that. experience where I could take off the. headnet because the mosquitoes didn't. care about me around those animals.

Really, it was really impressive. They. only wanted to attack the animals. They. were after the animals and they really. left us alone. But probably because. that's their natural source. Yeah. More. natural than there's more of them there. I mean, I don't know. Maybe they're. larger, but it's it was they're probably. accustomed to it, right? They also like. for thousands of years they've probably. been just feeding off of reindeer. Yeah. I think about that though. But I think. about those poor that poor moose from. Alaska who was also clearly bothered by. the mosquitoes. I imagine the reindeer. were as well. But and it was it was. pretty cool. Were these people riding.

the reindeer? They did ride them. In. fact, I got to they put me up there and. showed me how I could ride the reindeer. Is this their place? Yeah. Wow. Wow. So. you were in this area? Yes. Yeah, I was. there during the summer though. So it. wasn't there wasn't snow on the ground. It was all just a very grassy wet super. wet grassy. And the the moisture in the. ground is probably why there are so many. mosquitoes. It is so fascinating to me. that people will live like this. generation after generation after. generation. Yeah. And the fact that you. can somehow these are one of the weird.

animals caribou are that you can herd. Yeah. And people ride them and milk. them. Yeah. Yeah. And then occasionally. whack one. Yeah. I mean they're great, right? This is animals are have always. been a really great storage mechanism. And that's one of the hypotheses about. animal domestication. Why did this take. place? If we had plants, but there are. going to be years where there's plenty. to eat and years where there's not. enough to eat. But if you in those years. where there's plenty, if you store some. of that nutrition in animals, then in. the years where there's less, you can.

eat those animals. So, it's a very safe. way of storing what you can grow. That's. a fascinating way to look at it, storing. I just want to know how they. ever figured out how to herd those. reindeer. Like, what did you do? Like. how did who was the first person to. figure out how to get them all to stay. together, right? I think that about a. lot of domestic animals. Like who was. the I also think that about milk? Like. who was the first person who decided. I can have a go at that, you know? I. mean, they're probably starving. They. probably I mean, they must have tried. everything. I mean, that's how we found. out what mushrooms are edible, right?

Because a large percentage of them will. just kill you immediately. But people. are so desperate for anything. Yeah. Some of them are trying to tell you. though by being like bright red or. bright purple and saying Right. Right. Right. But we're dumb. So we're like, "Bright red. I'll lick that." Yeah. It. might be an apple. That's confusing. Some bright red things. are delicious and really good for you. Wow. So these people that live up there, what what was their history like? Have. they been living up there? Those. particular individuals have. Yeah. But I.

think they're they have a long history. The the culture has a long history. there. And I mean, we're still I think. we're still learning about how humans. have dispersed around the world and how. they got to be the places where they are. today. But I really think it's. impressive that there are people who are. hanging on to that culture. Absolutely. And really able to, you know, they're. they're trying now to relearn their. native languages because during the. communist era, they were all forced to. learn Russian and speak Russian the same. way as everyone else. But um even up. there. Even up there. Wow. like they.

sent an emissary to say, "Guys, it's time to speak the mother tongue.". Maybe they had to go to the squares like. you see in Yakutsk and and all these. other places where they have the big. squares with the speakers on the top. where they would go for the daily. admonishings or whatever from the. Communist Party. Who knows? Wow. What a. weird way to live. It's just it's it's. so fascinating that there's pockets of. these humans that live like this all. over the world. Obviously the the people. in the Amazon, the unconted tribes of.

the world. It's just so interesting and. we have so much to learn from them. Yeah. I think and it would be I mean. obviously that's such a cool job how. getting to go and actually try to. communicate with people who haven't been. talked to before. But you kind of don't. want to because you don't want to ruin. that if you Right. Isn't that an. interesting perspective? Because I don't. want to live like that. Like I don't. want to live in the Amazon with a leaf. over my private parts. But we assume. they even for a week like nope don't. want to do it. There's so many things. out there that'll eat you and there's so.

many bugs that can kill you and snakes. that could kill you. It's like uh I'd. like rather watch a video, right? David. Atenboroough documentary. I don't want. to go there. I have a good friend who. lives there, Paul Rosalie. He goes there. all the time. He's been on the podcast a. few times and he lives in the Amazon and. his whole thing is uh he's there. protecting the rainforest. And what they. do is they take these people that are. they're just poor people that have no. options and they're loggers. And so he. pays them more money to protect the.

rainforest. So they get to quit the. logging job and then protect the. rainforest. And then through funding. they they buy up parcels of land and. protect and save it. But he's had some. gnarly encounters with uncontacted. people where at one point in time they. realized they were they were actually. being hunted and they barely escaped. with their life. Holy [ __ ] Yeah, you. start hearing weird noises in the bushes. and then you realize like, oh boy, these. are people like we're be we're being. stalked right now by the most. sophisticated hunting animal out there.

Yes. By the not only that, I would. imagine at the stage that these people. are at, they've been living there for. thousands and thousands of years. They. probably have incredible perception, incredible senses because they have to, right? They probably knew these people. were coming a long time ago. They pro, you know, they probably heard the boat. coming down the river. They prepared. They got ready. They They know where all. the paths are. They know which way the. people would go. Like, you're utterly. helpless. How did he get out of this?

They got out just in time. Just in time. They just escaped. Yeah. But one of his. friends, one of the people that he was. working with did not. He he they would. have these gifts like so they would take. these rafts and to try to make contact. with these people. They would float. these rafts towards them filled with. food and they were doing this as like a. a peace gesture. And this guy had done. this several times and then one time he. didn't come back and they found him full. of arrows. Wow. Yeah. They just killed. him. They just decided, you know, maybe.

they had a bad experience with some. other person from some some other. westerner and they decided, you know, we're done. But they're rightly. terrified of humans because when these. uh people that come in that want to. extract resources, whether it's the. loggers or whether whatever it is, if. there's some minerals or anything else. they find there, they just kill. everybody. It's there's horrific human. rights violations that occur there where. these they just hire the worst people in. the world to go in and wipe out these.

tribes because these tribes are. resisting them taking over this land. We. have a history of this. Yeah, we we do. We have a deep history which is really. fascinating about the Amazon in. particular because you know we've had a. bunch of conversations on uh one of them. recently with Luke Caverns where we went. over the LAR discoveries of these. sophisticated grids and all the stuff. that's in the Amazon where they really. thought that this was just rainforest. forever and then slowly over time they.

realized no there was like a huge. civilization here of millions of people. So these people that are the unconted. people, I mean, I wonder how many of. them were like the preppers of the. Amazon world from, you know, 4,000 years. ago or whatever it was, right? Or it. wasn't even that long ago that the Percy. Faucet. Percy Faucet, right? That's his. name. The guy who one of one of the guys. who that's he's the the main character. in that book, the lost city of Z. He's. one of the people that went there. when. they fir when the first settlers went.

there or when the first explorers went. there, they talked about these. incredible like sophisticated. civilizations and then people went back. a hundred years and there was none of. that. So they thought that they had just. made it up. It turns out the first. people probably gave these folks. horrible diseases and it wiped out. millions of people and then the jungle. just consumed whatever structures and. houses and stuff that they had and all. that's left is these grids that you. could see when you fly over in LAR.

Yeah, it's so cool. You can see those. when you're flying over any part of the. world really. I I noticed it recently. I. was flying over Europe and you can see. the old trelluses from old, you know, I. don't know how old, but it's just so. cool how we can see remnants of. civilizations and just makes you think. what happened like this is some of the. coolest mysteries. That's what's so cool. about working in ancient DNA too is we. can just go to places, get DNA from. stuff and learn something that we never. knew before. It was fun. So you get.

interested in DNA, you go to Siberia, all that jazz. How do you get started. working with a company like Colossal? How does that take place? All of us working in Ancient DNA, we are constantly answering the same. question from the media, which is when. are we going to bring dinosaurs back to. life? Cuz Jurassic Park. Yeah. Well, and. great. We're so simple for one great. movie and everybody's like, when's that. going to happen? And people say people.

actually say that my field um was. spawned by Jurassic Park. The whole idea. that we could get DNA stuff, that's not. true. It was actually the other way. around. And Michael Kiteon, when he. wrote the book that became the movie, he. credited a lab at Berkeley, Alan. Wilson's group, the extinct species. study group, which was the first group. to show that you could get DNA in. something after it died. That was. actually from a quaga, which is a type. of zebra. They had a cool name. Yeah. Right. Well, in in in Dutch in South.

Africa, they actually say the qua. Oo, even better. Yeah. It's better that way, but yeah, it's kind of bad for the. microphone, probably. Gross. Um, I think it's the sound they're. supposed to make, right? Oh, so they. sound like that. I don't know. Who. knows? Anyway, they showed that you. could get DNA from this skin. And. everybody was like, that is the coolest. thing that I've heard in a long time. Um, that must mean we can bring. dinosaurs back to life. And everybody. started racing to get the oldest and.

coolest DNA. And so there were papers in. the best journals of science that never. published anything that's wrong ever, ever that said, look here's dinosaur DNA. and look here's DNA from a mascine aged. leaf and look here's this and all of it. is crap. We now know, in fact, the first. dinosaur DNA sequences that were. published, um, if you took them at the. time and you typed them into the. internet and you compared them to the. earliest of the what is today this big. repository of all DNA sequences of.

everything that's ever been sequenced. What came back was a close match to a. bird. Um, we now know because there's. more DNA sequences there that it was a. chicken, an exact match to a chicken. and some investigative work found that. the excavation team who'd been working. on those bones had fried chicken for. lunch every day. So, it's chicken contamination. Yeah, it. was like greasy fingers on your dinosaur. fossils. And look, now we have ancient. DNA. That is hilarious.

That's how little they knew about DNA. And what year was this around? That. would be the early '9s. The early 90s. And when was DNA first discovered? Well, the idea of DNA is much older than that, but it it was really um the idea what. what really helped this field along was. the invention of PCR. It's an acronym. for polymerase chain reaction. It's a. way of Carrie Mullis, who discovered the. idea of PCR while he was high on a road. trip, right? On LSD. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we should all do LSD, I think, because clearly you have your best ideas.

when you're high, right? Some people. have great ideas. Some people go kooky, you know. Some people lose their marbles. and never come back. Yeah. I think I. probably would not have good ideas on. LSD, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Well, I like your scientific exploration. mind. A good scientist always wants to. know. You never know. Maybe there's a. breakthrough waiting behind that little. piece of paper. Probably not. But. probably not. You never know. Anyway, he. discovered a way to photocopy DNA to. make lots of copies of the same thing. which then made it possible to learn the.

sequence using the technologies of the. day. And that was what made it possible. really for ancient DNA to take off was. this ability to to photo because there's. when an animal dies or plant dies, the. DNA in the cell starts to get chopped up. into smaller and smaller pieces by. things like UV, right? We go out in the. sun, we put sunscreen on and that stops. the UV from breaking our DNA. But it's. not terrible to get some sunlight. As. you probably just saw, there was an. article out saying, "Hey dummies, you. know, we need some sunlight in order to. make vitamin D." But we have a repair.

mechanism so that when your DNA breaks, it doesn't stay that way. We evolved. this mechan, but once you're dead, you. no longer have the energy for that to. work. And so these these damaged parts. of DNA accumulate. And also things like. bacteria and microbes get in there and. chew up the DNA to recycle the animal to. the next generation or plant or. whatever. And so the DNA that we get in. an old thing like a mammoth bone is. really short fragments like maybe 30 or. 40 or 50 letters of DNA long. In.

comparison, if I were to take a swab. from my cheek and sequence that, I could. get strings that are hundreds of. millions of letters long. This is living. DNA. So ancient DNA is in really crap. condition. And it's also mixed with. stuff. So, if I extract DNA from a. mammoth, I'll get some mammoth DNA, but. I'll get a lot of those microbes that. are in there chewing up DNA. I'll. probably get some of my DNA because I. touched that mammoth bone. Get DNA from. whoever else touched that thing. This. has been a real problem in archaeology.

because we're trying to get DNA from. humans, but we're humans and so we touch. these things and then, you know, I don't. know if it's my DNA or if that thing. DNA, right? This episode is brought to. you by the farmer's dog. If you're. anything like me, you love your dog. You. want what's best for your furry pal. But. figuring out what that is can be a real. headache. There's a lot of. misinformation out there, especially. around dog food. Take kibble for. example. Almost everyone has probably. fed their dog kibble at some point. But.

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page to learn more. offer applicable for. new customers only. Even just breathing. on it, right? Yeah. Or or dropping an. eyelash. When in my lab at Santa Cruz. and in ancient DNA labs around the. world, we have these really s It's like. working in a virus lab where you're. scared of everything, but we turn turn. it around. So rather than having the air. being sucked in, we're kind of trying to. push the air out. Um we don't want any. air coming in. um we're we're not we. wear these suits where it looks like. we're terrified, you know, with a face.

mask and hairet and we're totally. covered and we bleach everything. It's. not because we're afraid of those bones. We're afraid that we're going to get our. DNA in that bone and then we're not. going to be able to do course. Yeah. So, it took that um and be the ability to. amplify those tiny little pieces of DNA. for us to really figure out that we. could get DNA out of things. For a long. time, people thought we were never going. to get DNA out of Neanderl bones because. of this problem. you know, we we touch a. bone, we're just going to get human DNA. and we're never going to be able to know. the difference. But then with PCR and.

with the ability to work in these clean. labs and distinguish, we eventually got. whole in the tall genomes, which I think. is probably one of the crowning. achievements of my field, ancient DNA. Fonty Pabo won the Nobel Prize a few. years ago for this. What did they. extracted from? Bones. Um, different. bones. the the very first Neanderl. genome sequence was actually a mixture. of several bones because, you know, there wasn't very much DNA in any of. them and they were able to pull it. together. Actually, my husband who was. on part of that team who put together. the first Neanderl genome sequence. Wow.

Yeah, it was cool. Um, that's really. cool. But then they uh the Denisvens, the Dennisova people, that was just a. tiny little piece of a finger bone that. they had no idea was going to belong to. a totally new species of human, right? And they were able to get a really high. coverage whole genome out of this tiny. little finger bone that totally rewrote. what we thought we knew about. evolutionary history. And that's pretty. recently, right? Yeah. Yeah. Within the. last decade. Jamie and I were we we did. a podcast recently. We were talking.

about the big head people. What are they. called again? Juliani or something. Julian's. I've. seen this. This is really recent. Super. recent. It was like December of 2020. before they released this paper. Yeah, it was super cool and it just highlights. how much we don't know, right? How every. especially in paleo anthropology and. this is a field where you know people. will take like yeah jewelerin jeweleris. lost species of humans with an. abnormally large skull which lived.

alongside homo sapiens. So they died off. somewhere they lived in China between. 300,000 and 50,000 years ago. Yeah. And. so if they were able to breed with. humans, they probably did. And they. probably bred with Neandertols and they. probably bred with Denisven because, you. know, that's what we do. Wild stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course the. Hobbit people, the island of Flores. people. Yeah. Flores, the little tiny. No one has still been able to get DNA. from those samples. No, but I mean, so.

it's just bones. Someday it'll happen. We've tried. Um, Sponty's team has. tried. A lot of people have attempted. It's just they're too degraded. They're. from a hot place. All of those things. that degrade DNA, they it happens faster. and faster. That makes sense. Yeah. Um. there's probably a lot more to be. discovered too. So much they only really. found it out of one location, right? Yes. Yeah. And one thing that um people. have tested, actually this again was. work that my husband did was whether the. people who live there today, the Rampasa. people are related to them and they're.

not. It seems like because they're small. as well and the question is is there. something weird about them? This is. actually really cool. It was a really. cool result. Um, there are It's hard to. know exactly what bits of changes in. your DNA code for making you big or. small, but clearly it's not just one. thing because there's not just people my. size and people normal size. I'm only 5t. tall, right? It's we have a big spectrum. of so there's lots of different genes. that are involved with this, but we we. kind of have an idea of where those.

genes are in a genome and what they. might be. And with these people who are. all small, the idea, the hypothesis was. that there was some new thing in their. DNA that led to them being small. But it. wasn't. They just are at the extreme of. all the things we already know. Is it. just island dwarfism? It's just, you. know, small population on an island. Yeah. Different alals go to fixation. And yes, I mean weird things happen on. islands. Things like this. Elephants. even. Elephants dwarfed. Yeah. But. dodos. Dodos got bigger. And so do.

lizards. They dwarf or they get bigger. They get bigger. Yeah, like the komodo. Oh, yeah. That's one of the scariest. animals. Creepiest animals. I I can't. I'm so embarrassed to tell you how many. times I've watched videos of them eating. large animals whole like cattle. Yeah, they eat sheep and monkeys. It's. horrific. Why do we watch that? I don't. know. You're like, is this going to. happen? You know, you open up Instagram. like, oh no. You see this poor goat and. you see this slobbery. You can't help. You're like, I'm like, I'm going to. watch. They're so gross. Their mouth is.

filled with botulism and is that what. kills them? The botis I think there's a. venom as well. They think there's a lot. of toxins in their mouth and I think. there's also a venom. I think they used. to think it was just poison just just. botulism and just various bacteria. But. now I believe they think it's a venom. I. watched another horrible video where. they would bite this buffalo. They just. bite its hind quarters and then follow. it while this the the venom is slowly. like taking its running its toll through.

the body and then eventually the poor. buffalo gets to the point where it can't. move and they start eating it alive. I. think I've seen that one. I do think. I've seen that one. Nature is so rough. So brutal to Komodo Island? No chance. Really? No. I remember um Sharon Stone's. husband, I believe he was either a. journalist or someone who owned a. newspaper or something like that, and. they went to see the Kimono dragons at. the zoo. I think it was in San.

Francisco, and they took their shoes off. when they enter into this Kimono dragon. area to like not contaminate. And. apparently, he had white socks on and. they decided that his foot looked. delicious and they bit him. Yeah. Yeah. It bit him. I don't know what happened. with that. This was, you know, an. ex-husband of hers back in the dis. Maybe that's what she planned. The ex I. don't think she did. I think it was just. one of those things where this guy just. didn't know what he was getting into and. shouldn't have had white socks on. Or it. just it's just doing what a Komodo.

dragon does and biting whatever it can. I wouldn't have thought white socks. Here it is. Bronstein underwent surgery. to reattach several thousand. severed tendon sand. severed tendons. hand to rebuild his big toe that was. crushed by the dragon's jaws. Oh, it's. just messing up. Yeah, it's just missing. his face. Oh. Oh, tendons and Okay. Oh, he So, he was done was able to pry open. the reptile's mouth and escape through a. small feeding door in the cage while the.

zookeeper distracted the dragon. Oh my. god. Wait, he was in the feeding cage? Yeah. Whoopsies. Oh, they mistook his his white tennis. shoes. That's what it was. It wasn't. socks. So, this story is old. This story. is from They had him take it off. It was. his shoe. Oh, they had him remove his. white sock. Yeah. Oh, it's a shoeless. foot. Oh, so they thought that his tennis. shoes would look like the rats. Um, so. they told him, "Take your shoes off so. they don't look like the rats." Instead, it looks like flesh. Oh my. Sorry. This.

This sounds like someone did a dumb. thing. Like this is absolutely a lot of. dumb things. What year was this, Jamie? uh 20 2001. Yeah. Well, bad decisions, bad outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not going to Komodo Island. or in the feeding cage at a bad place. No, no. I'm not going to any of those. places. No, no, no, no, no, no. I get. it. I like I know what they are. I I can. watch them through the cage. I'm good. I.

don't need the additional thrill. Right. But there are places where there are big. things like dodos that are amazing and. probably not going to kill you. So sure, there's some stuff that won't kill you, like giraffes. Giraffes. I've been told. that a giraffe is the dumbest animal. that really Yeah. I I didn't know this. and I wouldn't have suspected it because. they're so gorgeous and you wouldn't. think that something that gorgeous would. be so dumb. But I have friends who Matt. James who's the chief animal officer at. Colossal, he's worked with at lots of. different zoos throughout his career. And he's told me that there are multiple.

occasions where he has had to save a. giraffe from accidentally killing itself. because it's so dumb. Wow. Well, they're. so kind that they let babies feed him. Oh, really? Yeah. You know, just there's. nothing going on. When my kids were. little, you you could go to the San. Diego Zoo and you would give them. lettuce and little babies are allowed to. hold up like a 2-year-old can hold up. their arm and this enormous tongue comes. wrapping around that piece of lettuce. and they giggle and every but they trust. them so much that they let little kids. feed them. Like they set it up so people.

can feed these and they seem so calm, doile. Yeah. Like they're just happy. they're not getting eaten by lions. Sounds a little dangerous to me though. If they're if they are genuinely stupid, will they accidentally at some point. take that baby's hand? And then they. have huge strong necks, right? Oh, yeah. They fight each other with their necks. Says they're kind of smart. Oh, really? But this is I don't know. The ability to. make inferences based on statistical. information has so far been tested only. on animals having large brains in. relation to their body size, like. primates and parrots. They tested.

giraffes, despite having a smaller. relative brain size, can rely on. relative frequencies to predict sampling. outcomes. They presented them with two. transparent containers filled with. different qual quantities of highly. liked food and less preferred food. The. experimentter covertly drew one piece of. food from each container and let the. giraffes choose between the two options. In the first task, we varied the. quantity and relative frequency of the. highly liked and less preferred food. pieces. In the second task, we inserted.

a physical barrier in both containers. So, giraffes only had to take into. account the upper part of the container. when predicting the outcome. In both. tasks, giraffe successfully selected the. container more likely to provide highly. liked food, integrating physical. information to correctly predict. sampling information. Huh. I I mean, cool. But I also trust a person who has. tried to keep giraffes from killing. themselves by doing dumb things to tell. me that a giraffe isn't always making. the best decisions. Perhaps they're.

intelligent for the environment they. belong in. I'm sure that's true. I mean, otherwise, that's how evolution works. Yeah. But when you put them in the zoo, they're like, "Look, grab all our food. What's there's a wire I can get my neck. stuck in." You know, like a a kid that. never leaves his parents' basement and. plays Call of Duty till he's 35. You. know, probably doesn't have like the. best social intelligence. Probably not. the probably going to be pretty awkward. when you get him out in the wild. Probably. Yes. It's probably same thing. with giraffes. Yeah. Did you hear that, James? Talking to my 15-year-old. Oh.

Play a lot of video games. They're very. addictive. It's a real problem. And. they're going to get worse. They're. going to get way better, you know, as uh. science makes things more and more. addictive. Yeah. One of the things. they're really good at, these designers. and algorithms. Oh, yeah. But they're. just so good at making games that are. just incredibly compelling and fun. Yeah. Oh, so fun. Way more fun than. going outside and getting bullied. Yeah. You know, that's the problem. And you. know, you could be a badass in Call of. Duty. All you're doing is sitting there.

Or War Thunder. That's the game that my. son is into. War Thunder. I don't know. about that one. What's that one? It's. about like planes and things that you. build and then fight. I don't know. It's. Yeah, pretty crazy stuff. Yeah, just. imagine if you could take one of those. Dennis Hovvens and show them that. That. is an interesting question. What would. we do if we could bring a Neanderl or a. Denisven back? De extinct one of them. We are not doing that at Colossal. They're humans. We cannot ask them for. consent to do this. We're not working on. on them. You won't. But China's like,

"Tell me more. Maybe I think it's a bad idea, but if. they do, I would like There's a lot of. people that think bringing dire wolves. back is a bad idea. Well, I mean, what. did you think of the direwolves? Well, uh, fortunately, after the last podcast. I did with Ben, I did actually get to go. visit them and I was blown away. It's. extraordinary. It's so wild. I mean, it's one thing to see them in. photographs, but it's another thing to. be close to them where you're you're.

outside. There's no fence between you. and them and you look in their eyes, you're like, "That is a different. animal." That is a totally different. I've seen wolves before. That is a. totally different animal than I've never. seen a wolf in the wild, though. I did. Well, I saw one, but it was like running. across the road at a distance and it was. dusk. Yeah, it was that was in Alberta. There's a lot of wolves up there. But. that I've never seen I've never like. looked in one's eyes and it's like these. aren't even that old, right? You know, they they were more than six months old,

but they were almost 100 pounds already. Yeah. And they have this look in their. eye like and you can see they're bigger. They're more muscular. And you see that. that coat, the direwolf coat that it's. extraordinary. The mane that they have. It's very it's it's really incredible. And then there's the little female, Kesi. Yes. She's adorable. And she is. like a puppy right now. Did you were. able to hold her? She's adorable. Yes. She nibbles on your fingers. She's a. She's a little thing, but she's, you. know, one day going to be 140 lbs. You.

can't get anywhere near her, right? Which is really crazy. Yeah. I'm glad. you got to see the boys before. They. were probably already a little bit. standoffish. Yeah. Especially compared. to Kazy. Yeah, they're standoffish. They. they they get fairly close though within. like 20 ft of you checking you out. They. pee all over the place, you know, marking their territory. But it's just. so strange to see an animal in the flesh. that didn't exist. uh you know for 10,000 years. It's. amazing. I was there for Klesy's birth.

and I people were asking me afterward. how did that feel? And I just you can't. even describe it know this moment when. she was born and then she screamed. She. had this this cry this scream. I have it. on my phone actually. I can play it for. you. But it was just such a. I don't know. It's it it it's this awe. this um and I think this is one of the. best things about the the extinction. work and the species preservation work. that Colossal is doing is that we live.

in such a crazy time. People don't often. have an opportunity to feel genuine awe. about something. And this is one of the. things that people get about going out, going hunting, go get out and, you know, going and spending time in the woods or. going and experiencing something that. they wouldn't normally experience is is. this this way to feel genuine wonder and. excitement and enthusiasm and Kesi's. birth. I wasn't there for the birth of. the boys. I was in the UK at a. conference and it was very sad and I had.

COVID and I was asleep and trying to. recover. And the next morning I woke up. and there were like 150 text messages on. my phone from Ben going, "What the [ __ ]. are you doing? Where are you? Why are. you not responding?" And I'm like, "Oh. my god, I've missed this moment." So I. made sure that I was there present for. for Klesia. And I'm glad I was cuz what. a what an amazing I'm glad you got to. see them. I'm I'm glad I got to see. them, too. It's It's really a crazy. experience. I felt very fortunate just. to be in their presence and and also.

very conflicted by it all. Like this is. so odd. Like is this the beginning? Like. are we going to bring back everything? Like would is that a good thing? Are. things supposed to go extinct? Are we. supposed to just bring back everything. that's ever lived? At what point do we. draw the line? You know, all these. thoughts in my head like why are human. beings the deciders of what lives and. dies? Like what are we do? We have an. arrogance because of our relative. intellect that we think that we should. be able to make these kind of decisions. and not understand the comprehensive. effect that it has on the entire.

ecosystem. And we know what happens with. invasive species. When invasive species. come into new territories, they destroy. everything. It's like Florida is amazing. example of that, right? Florida is so. crazy. It is. I mean, it is Florida. Yeah. You know, I mean like when you. think of Florida, you think like Florida. man. So the only state that you can say. like the name of the state and then a. man and everybody's like what did he do? You know, like but that's Florida. ecologically. Yeah. Like the entire. center of it, the Everglades, is.

infested with Burmese pythons. Yeah. Did. you see that? There's a competition. every year to go out and kill as many as. they can. And there's a there's a. monetary reward for people who kill. I. think it's the most or maybe the the. biggest. There's some something like. this. And even that's not going to put a. dent in. No, it doesn't at all. People. kill and in during this competition, they kill hundreds, maybe thousands of. these snakes, and it doesn't even touch. them. Like there's an estimate of a half. a million. They think there might be a. half a million there. And there's a guy. that's been on this podcast for he calls. himself Python cowboy. He's uh quite a.

character. And didn't he give us a head? We got a head laying around here, right? You got it over there. That python head. Um but that dude, he has been catching. them. He uses dogs. The dogs find where. the nests are. And the video of these. things, you know, you're pulling out. this 15, 16, 17. I think he's got as big. as like 18 foot long snake. Wow. They're. hundreds of pounds. They're enormous. They swallowed the deer. They eat. alligators. They're eating alligators. Thank goodness cuz alligators are doing.

great. Like that's one thing I don't. mind them doing. We need to We need. something that's haunting alligators. That's another problem in Florida. It's. infested with alligators. And they used. to be on the endangered species list. When I lived there, they were on the. endangered species list. One of the. class of 1967, right? The first species. to be officially listed. Why did they. list them? And how because they were. almost gone at that point. How did they. do that? Like I can't imagine that you. could do that now. that you could get. them to the point of extinction now. because they're so hard to find and. they're everywhere. Maybe it was I don't. I don't want to say they're so hard to.

find but I mean when they get in the. water Yeah. you know like you're not. going to get all of them like how are. you killing all of them? I was you know. there's a show I don't know where it's. on but it's a show that's called Florida. Man. I was watching it on a flight the. other day and seriously and it goes. through interactions with that Florida. men have and one of them is about a dude. who was kind of lost in his life and he. climbed over a fence that he shouldn't. have climbed over and went for a swim in. a lake and then had an alligator bit off. his arm and that is the that's the story. that's that particular oh I saw that guy.

in the news that's the guy that like he. had to walk like for a whole day with. like one arm I don't know I remember. there was a guy who what I I mean, I. don't know. There's probably hundreds of. stories like this, but in this video, and I was trying to sleep, so I'm. probably wrong. In this video, he laid. on the side of the lake, like probably. bleeding to death, when an alligator. that was in the shape of his mom, I. think, came up to him and told him he. had to get his ass up and move or he was. going to die. And he was like, "Okay, mom, I'll do that." It was I don't know.

Oh, boy. He was probably not sober, I. imagine. It was blood loss at that. point. He was sure. And then also. whatever contributed to making him climb. that fence in the first place. I won't. play the video, but there you go. Is. that the dude? I mean, this is this is. not the show she's watching is on. Netflix, I think. This is a similar. thing that did happen a month ago. Here's the video of it. The one that was. the show that was about see I don't want. to see this dude lose his arm. The show. was about something that happened years. ago. If enough go for them to be able to. make it, but yeah. I mean, how many.

people in Florida? Yeah. Right. I mean, it's Florida. They are huge. Yeah. Now. they're in Georgia, too, right? Oh, they're in Texas. Yeah, Texas. They're. here. Yeah, they they they find them and. the golf courses in Florida. Like, good. luck playing golf out there. Are you. crazy? You're playing golf in Jurassic. Park. There's I'm sure you've seen the. videos. There's one amazing video of. this huge alligator. It's like a. 14-footer and it's walking across this. golf course and it looks like a dinosaur. because it's not walking like with its.

dragging its belly on the ground like. they sometimes do. It's kind of puffed. up. There it is. Look at that. Holy Oh. my god. That's wild. That is so big. Look at the size of that thing. And. you're out there playing golf. You're. like, you see that guy and you know that. they can run fast. Yeah. They run like. 30 miles an hour. Yeah. And they run. Look at this dork. This dork can't run. 10 miles an hour. Florida man. Yeah. That's totally a Florida man. Let me. give me a selfie for the Facebook. He's. get right up on that thing. And you know.

there's a lot of them there too. I mean, they say that pretty much any. undisturbed body of water likely has an. alligator in it now. So, what ate them? That's a good question. What? Back in. the day, they probably just ate each. other. You know, they cannibalize each. other. Maybe they're going to do that, too. I mean, I'm sure they probably do. They probably have to at a certain point. in time. And what are the snakes going. to eat? Snakes have wiped out 90% of the. mammals in the Evergrades. And they're. terrible for birds, too. Oh, yeah. For. everything. Ground nesting birds, anything. Anything they get a hold of. I. mean, and if there's a half a million of.

them, that is a killing population of. extraordinary proportions. I mean, half. a million things that could eat a deer, you know, they they there's no skunks. left. There's everything. Raccoons, they're all gone. Yeah. Everything's. missing. But this is exactly why we need. these technologies that we're trying to. develop at Colossal. You know, we're. we're not just bringing species back to. life, right? We're we're we're sounds. like a sales pitch, species preservation. company. It is a sales pitch. But birds, it when I ever think about birds, I. think of this, right? We know that there.

are things that we can do to help. mammals to adapt to rapid changes in. their habitat, right? We we can do. things like um like the uh Florida. panthers. You know, one of the things. that we did to save Florida panthers. from becoming extinct was we introduced. panthers from Texas, which are the. closest genetically and geographically. to Florida panthers. They were probably. connected at some point until humans. created stuff that meant that they. couldn't go back and forth. And when.

Texas panthers were introduced in the. mid 1990s, that population recovered. They stopped. They had a um a disorder. called crypto orchidism where their. testicles wouldn't descend or only one. would descend. They had all sorts of. heart problems. They because there's a. small breeding population because there. were very few of them. And so no genetic. diversity. The choice was to mate with. your family. That's it. Right? And things want to survive, so. they do. So you get these highly inbred. populations and people fixed it by.

moving an animal from one population to. another, introducing new genetic. diversity. It's called genetic rescue, right? And that's a great way of. bringing diversity back into a. population. It's what we're trying to do. with our red wolf project. So red wolves. are one of the most endangered wolf. species in the world. They're the only. endemic American wolf and they are. nearly extinct. There's a successful. captive breeding program and a few years. ago uh some of the people that we work. with at Colossal Woman called Bridget.

Bonhold who's at Princeton who's a. friend of mine she was working and. discovered because people were sending. her photos. See this is why you have to. pay attention to people who you think. might be crazy when they send you. pictures of things you know look at this. cool crazy thing that I think I found. you shouldn't just discount it. I mean, I'm the person who has tested insulation. that somebody told me Bigfoot peed on. and participated in it because if it's. real, I want to be the person who finds. it. Right. Right. Yeah. So, Bridget. says, "This guy who lives down in the.

the the coast of Louisiana, sent her a. picture of an animal that she's like, "That is not a wolf and it is not a. coyote and I don't know what it is and. it's crazy." And she looked at it and. she goes, "Yeah, it's it's not it's. something else. It's something in. between those." And so she tested it and. found that it has a ton of DNA ancestry. from red wolves. And they're hybridized. a little bit with coyotes, but all red. wolves are hybridized a little bit with. coyotes. Canids are always hybridizing. with each other. We know that because. you know there are wolves that are black.

because black gene for wolves got into. the wolf population because a domestic. dog had his way with a wolf in heat, right? That's how that alil got into. that population. So we know canids do. this all the time and she was like this. is so cool because this captive breeding. population was established with just a. few founder individuals and the team. working with them are doing a great job. trying to maximize genetic diversity by. picking who is going to pair with who to. keep all that diversity there but it's. still just a few individuals. So they.

are going to lose genetic diversity. It's just how it works. But if we can. bring other individuals in from this. population, that's a way of. concentrating more diversity, better. able to pick which parts are redwolf, either by breeding individuals or by. editing their DNA, which is technology. that we developed on the path to. direwolf, right? Um, and we can actually. help this population to survive. So. there there are ways that we can do this. for for mammals that are going to have. really amazing consequences for the way.

we can protect biodiversity. Well, that's fascinating for things like red. wolves and things like that. But what. you know what do you like when you think. of like the python problem in Florida? I. heard the worst idea. The worst idea. they were talking about introducing. honey badgers. Honey badgers cuz they. eat snakes. I mean, I don't know if this. was a serious idea because we have never. as a species humans introduced a thing. to try to control a thing and that thing. that we introduced just went horribly.

wrong. We've never done that before, right? Australia. Right. Australia's a. wreck. They have a terrible feral cat. problem. Yeah. Yeah. And in in Hawaii, they have these giant African land. snails that Oh, yeah. I heard of those. Yeah. That they introduced this thing. called a a rosy wolf snail that they. were going to get to eat the giant. African land snails, but instead the. rosy wolf snail prefers the taste of. native endemic Hawaiian snails. And so. the rosy wolf snail is leaving the giant.

snails alone. They're and they're big. Have you seen one of those? I don't. think I have. A giant African land. snail. It's worth looking at it. Did. they come over on cargo ships or. something? I think we I think people. introduced them for some reason that I. can't what it Yeah. So we have a good. history of doing this kind of thing for. giant esargo. Whoa. Right. Whoa. Are can. they eat those? Are those delicious? I. think people can eat them probably. But. they eat everything from all of the. vegetation to the other snails. Eyes of. that to plaster, you know, that they'll.

eat their way through infrastructure. that people have built. Yeah. Oh, great. Yeah. Oh, great. Yeah. So, we introduce. these little things, rosy wolf snails, to try to control them, but instead. they're killing all the the endemic. snails. So, we never learn. Yeah. I hope. they don't bring honey badgers to. Florida, but I I you know, I don't even. know if this article I was reading was a. serious article, but it was just like. that sounds like something that someone. would cuz you know they have they're. really good at killing snakes. Like. that's what they like to do. They kill. cobras and they have an unbelievably.

resilient body. Like they can tolerate. getting bit by lions. I mean they're. freaks. They're really weird animals. like honey badgers and they just really. cute, right? I remember when my kids. were little watching the wild cats. There was a wild cats episode about. honey badges. How they were all cute. when they were babies because they were. hiding in camouflage. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. when they're babies are cute. They're. pretty ferocious. Yeah. Yeah. There's a. lot of Wolverine. Wolverine. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar to Wolverines. Yeah. Like I.

think they're all in the same family, right? Yeah. There he is. Look at that. face. I think they look very Look at. that face. Just big old deadly snake. And that's his lunch. And they get bit. all the time and they just like they get. sick, pass out for a couple minutes, and. then recover and kill a snake. That's. amazing. Yeah, they're ferocious little. animals. So, have people been able to. understand better antivenenom properties. from studying them? That's a really good. Look at that face. Yeah. Oh my god, he. looks vicious. That is such a crazy. animal. That pattern on the coat is.

really beautiful. Oh, they're wild. looking. They're wild looking. I just. hope they don't bring them into Florida. because it sounds like someone's going. to do it, you know, like that. It sounds. like a Florida idea. We have you heard. about the hippo solution the in the. early 20th century? No. So this is this. is a great sort of American history. story because you know this is our. country is replete with people with. brilliant ideas, right? And in the early. 20th century when the the land in the. west was not doing so well, been overg. grazed, there were too many cattle and.

there was this this thing called the. meat question. It was the thing of the. day, the meat question. People were. talking about how are we going to. survive? There's not enough cattle. Um. how maybe we're going to have to eat our. dogs. And at the same time, there was a. problem in the Mississippi and other. places where the I think it was the. World Fair people had the brought New. Orleans, who was the host city of the I. think in Japan, they brought New Orleans. this um water hyasent, this water little. tiny beautiful flower to as a gift and. they loved it and so they planted it.

everywhere and it just grew like. absolute crazy and was choking up the. the river like ships couldn't get. through because of this like matted. river. People were like putting oil on. it to get it to sink and trying to light. it on fire and nothing would happen. And. this team of people that included a. congressman from Louisiana came up with. a solution for both problems at once. And that was that they were going to. import hippos. from Africa. into Louisiana. Yeah. To live on the. bayou. They would eat the plant, this.

water hyen thing, and then we could eat. them. And that was going to be the. perfect solution to both of these. problems. Yeah. How did that get. stopped? It was an accident. So, it was. it's actually a fun story. You should. you should look it up and read the whole. story because it it involved these two. guys. Um, one one of them was the guy. who was the inspiration for the Boy. Scouts of America and another guy was. like a con man who had worked as a pimp. and a journalist and all these other. things. And they had actually been. employed during the Boore wars to kill. each other, but they came together on. part of this congressman's team. The.

scout thought it was a great idea. He. wanted people to bring in all sorts of. animals from Africa and put them in. national parks so that people would want. to go to national parks because they. could hunt them and they could and that. would you know have more reason for. people to want to support the idea of. national parks at the time which is. great like you know this utility of. nature. It seems weird compared to how. we think of it now but I think this is. really it's really important and it was. really important part of the way we we. got conservation legislation in the US. So he was excited about this. And then. the congressman when he was pulling.

together the team of people that he. wanted to be on his side for this, he. went to a show that this other guy, the. sort of conman, traveling salesman, pimp, escape artist dude, was having. about how he was an intrepid explorer. And he was like, "That guy is an an. expert as well. He can also be on my. team." And they testified in front of. Congress and they asked questions like, um, you know, "How do you know that. they're safe? How do you know that. they're tame?" this con man, he was. like, "Well, you know, um there's plenty. of evidence that you can even feed them. from a baby's bottle with no evidence.

whatsoever." Right? Just everybody was. like, "Yeah, awesome." Even the New York. Times was completely behind it. They. published an editorial talking about. they called hippos lake cow bacon. Yeah. What year was this? This is the early. 20th century. 1910. Wow. Lake cow bacon. Yeah. Everybody was. like, "This is it. This is what's going. to solve the problem. Teddy Roosevelt. was behind it, too. Teddy Roosevelt was. behind it. Yeah. It was a bill all the. way in Congress. It just didn't pass. Yeah. Well, it didn't it didn't go up.

for a vote. How the US almost became a. nation of hippo ranchers. Oh my god. Yeah. Failed House bill sought to. increase the availability of lowcost. meat by importing the hippopotamus that. would be killed to make lake cow bacon. Yeah. It's brilliant. This is I mean, this is such a It's so funny, but it. it's not fair to call it failed because. it didn't fail. It never came up for a. vote. So they had testified in front of. Congress too late for it to come up to a. vote that year and then just other [ __ ]. happened and people stopped paying. attention. That's it. It just went away. Wow. Yeah. So near miss on the hippos.

Well, they kill more people in Africa. than any other mammal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and now we know that they're. good at becoming invasive. You saw. there's hippos that live now in Colia. because of Pablo Escobar. Nobody knew. what to do with them. Yeah. And they. started off with just just a handful of. them and now there's like dozens of them. down there. And yes, what are they doing. about that? Um, nothing. I think they. keep rounding them up and putting them. back on his property. Like, what can you. do sometimes? How much property did he. have up there? I don't know the answer.

to that. Yeah. It's so crazy that you just have hippos. and then they just get loose and now. Colombia has hippos. He took them there on purpose though, just like we wanted to bring them here. Can you imagine how bad that would be. though? And I mean, well, that's the. wild boars in the United States. That's. William Randph Hurst. William Randph. Hurst wanted wild pigs on his property. And so he imported them from, I think, from I don't remember it was Russia or.

somewhere in Europe. And then these wild. pigs have now populated all through. California. I mean, they're they're all. over the place now. Yeah, that's crazy. We did have wild pigs around the US at. some point. Probably not the same thing, right? Weren't there wild pigs? There. was also That's a good question. I think. they came over on boats with explorers, you know, and um William Randph Hurst. They all the ones around like the. Northern California area. I think all of. those are the remnants of the William. William Randph Hurst pigs. Yeah, they.

think we don't see them in Alaska, Yukon, where we find all these big, you. know, stashes of bones coming out of. perafrost. So, it's probably not that. they came over like that. We find bison. and horses and mostly bison. Like, where. did the wild boores emanate from? like. what's their original country of origin? I think well I have a friend who works. on domestication of pigs and they've. published a bunch of different papers. that are always contradicting each. other. He gave a hilarious talk at a. meeting I was at last week about how he. keeps saying something different as a. way of you know keeping to publish more.

papers. He he was just being nice about. how he's open to changing his mind with. new data which I think is a valued trait. in a scientist. But yeah, so Southeast. Asia or around Asia I think is the. origin or at least the domestication and. normally things are domesticated around. where they were native. Well, they're. the weirdest animal, right? Because the. domestic ones will become they change. They morph when they go feral really. quickly. I think it's like they start. within like six weeks. I mean, this is. the way evolution works, right? You. know, something has a particular suite. of traits. I'm reading the the testimony.

of the when this was going on. This is. the guy who presented this and the hippo. thing. He's talking about pigs right. here where they were going to bring them. from northern Manuria because of Oh, were they the most delicious pigs? They're also talking about bringing in. rhinos. I think they did bring in camels. in like 1853. Oh, well, we had camels. There were North American camels that. were were here during the ice age. This. is a bad test or something. This is all. This is like This is 1853. They're. talking about bringing antelopes in and. they asked like are they easily tamed or.

domesticated? He's like they're very. easily tamed. That's Irwin. So, this is. a guy who worked for um the I guess what. became the USDA, but he was in charge of. apples, but he was really dedicated to. trying to solve this meat problem and he. saw importing African animals and. animals from other places as the real. solution to this. Yeah. Well, they've. definitely done that in Texas. Texas is. overrun with African animals. Well, all. the private ranches, they're filled with. elins and Neil Guy and the beast and we.

used to have so many cool animals here. that all went extinct at the end of the. ice age. So why not? I mean, we had. mammoths. Why shouldn't we have. elephants? I know. But isn't it weird? But it's again, that's the same. argument. Like you're bringing an. invasive species. Is it invasive though. if it used to live here? Well, it's. invasive in a sense that the wolves that. are in Colorado right now that are. eating all the cattle are kind of. invasive. Yeah. I mean, right. They're not. invasive cuz they do live. I mean, there. are wolves actually just have moved into. the San Juans. I think I think.

documented like natural migration as. opposed to the reintroduction. I think. there was something I read about that. yesterday. But the wolves that they've. introduced to like outside of Aspen in. particular, I have a friend who has a. ranch out there and I posted about it on. Instagram. He actually sent me some more. pictures yesterday. Uh and I was going. to post about it, but so much crazy. stuff was happening in LA. I'm like, this is not the time to talk about like. wolf problems, right? But the they. they're just killing calves and eating. their liver. this. They're not even that. hungry. They're just eating the tasty.

parts and leaving these calves alone. And these people are on a 24-hour run. ragged, you know, they these they have. these teams of guys that have to patrol. the area 24 hours a day to try to scare. off the wolves and they they're not. allowed to shoot them and you know, they. spent millions of dollars bringing them. there and they're just eating cattle. Yeah, I imagine it's really devastating. to see something like that happening and. know that somebody else made this.

decision and that you who actually. experience it weren't I mean I I imagine. the people who voted for that I I wonder. what what they imagined. Well, it's. ballot box biology, right? You get a. bunch of people that live in the cities. that don't have a lot of experience in. in nature and wild ecosystems and then. you introduce this idea, we're going to. bring wolves back to their native. habitat. Oh, that sounds amazing. What. they're not telling you is like this. What this rancher told me is that first. of all, the original wolves that were.

introduced into Colorado were wolves. that were taken from Oregon because. these wolves were preying on cattle. Oh. So they had So they already had a taste. for Exactly. And they already had. habits. And so then they brought them. into Colorado where they start praying. on cattle. And so then they moved them. from this area where they were praying. on cattle and put them outside of Aspen. where they pray on cattle. Start praying. on cattle. It's it's just stupid. And. it's again, it's not biologists. It's. not their idea. It's ballot box biology.

And it's all being instigated by the uh. Colorado governor. Yeah. It's so. important to actually talk to wildlife. biologists and ecologists. I mean, we. can see from Yellowstone how important. having this keystone predator is in. ecosystems where they can be and where. there is space for them. But the land is. not the same as everywhere as it is in. Yellowstone. We need to be able to make, you know, I when I was at Santa Cruz, I. taught um an introductory biology class. for non- majors where my goal was to. give the students tools to be able to.

think on their own, which is harder than. you might imagine. Um, and their midterm. exam was a debate and the topic of the. debate was that wolves should be. introduced into California. Why not New. York City? Let's go. Put them everywhere. they used to be. I mean, this is where. it gets silly. It's like when you're. dealing with people that have cattle. ranches and this is their entire. livelihood and all they're doing now is. just compensating them for the calves. that get killed and then so you have. less output every year. So it's like the.

whole thing is crazy. They were already. on their way to do a natural migration. into Colorado and it would have been. different wolves. Yes, it would have. been different size wolves too because I. think there's also like some of the. wolves that are being introduced u. they're introduced from British Columbia. or they're being you know introduced. from Alberta or somewhere up there like. I think that was the ones that came into. Yellowstone like the Yellowstone thing. is cool right there's it's been a few. decades now people have kind of like. come to this sort of equilibrium you.

know there was people recognized that. there was an overpopulation of elk for. sure I mean they they used to of these. hunting seasons where they would hunt. them in the snow in the winter because. there were so many of them. They wanted. you to just be able to pick them out and. just just shoot them for meat because. they really didn't have the resources. because they didn't have the apex. predators because a lion can only eat so. many of them. So, mountain lions weren't. really putting the dent in the. population that a pack of intelligent. hunting cooperative animals like wolves.

could do. So, they brought it back and. it's, you know, it's relatively. successful. They've knocked the. population of elk down more than 40%. But wow, that's probably good. Yeah. I. mean, not for the people that hunt elk. They're really mad. But, you know, wolves are cool. It's cool to have them. around. But Montana is very different. than Aspen, right? It's very different. and you're in the mountains of Montana. and you see a wolf versus in someone's. cattle ranch in Aspen, right? This like. this is stupid. Like why did you do.

this? But what's interesting this this. class that I took so be it was a debate. that I taught sorry it was a debate and. what I made them do was assume roles of. a rancher, a politician, a. conservationist and I had several. different roles and then I randomly. assigned whether they were pro or con. and they had a couple of weeks to figure. out what their what their debate was. going to be and I took a vote before the. debate and as you might expect for. 18year-olds in California you say at the. beginning should wolves be introduced.

100% yes Right. Right. They do this. debate and I did it four years in a row. and every year after they had to do. this, after they had to put themselves. in somebody else's shoes and think about. it from their perspective, it would. shift and the majority of people would. be like, "Yeah, no, it's a bad idea." I. think if you give people the tools to be. able to think, they can imagine. themselves in a different scenario. And. we need to do that. We need to be arming. people with thoughtfulness rather than. jumping to a conclusion. Yeah. And also.

ballot box biology. It's like if you but. everybody's gonna vote. So, right. But. you shouldn't be able to vote on things. that you're not educated in. It's like. if you allow people to vote on things. that have tremendous consequences to the. ecosystem, like a reintroduction of an. apex predator, and they don't understand. those consequences. They just have this. very utopian idea of what it means to. bring back wolves. Look, I love them. I. think they're amazing animals. It's just. like putting them in, you know, calabasis is probably not the best idea,

right? Putting them where people live, they're going to eat pets. They're gonna. they're going to eat a lot of things. that are penned up, whether they're. sheep or goats or whatever whatever. people have that they can get out. easily. They're not going to chase down. a herd of elk. That's hard. Well, they're biology, right? They're not. They're making decisions on where they. can find their next meal. We're we're. not planning on rewing direwolves, just. to put that out there. I like that. Plus, you've met Kazy. I I don't think. she would be. I bet she will in a couple. of years. Yeah, maybe. So, yeah. But. right now, in a couple of years, she'll.

freak you out. She kind of freaks me out. already when you look at her, but his. eyes are so intense. They're so intense. You know, when you look into a. predator's eyes, there's something about. it. It's like you realize like, oh my. god, I'm like a water balloon. I'm so, you know, we're just like so weak and. soft. And yeah, we've been putting. together not because we're we're not. going to release them. The next step for. their lives is to study them and see, you know, how they're changed by their. DNA being modified. Measure things like. their gene expression, their growth,

their health span, their lifespan. Learn. the consequences of the work that we're. doing. Learn how they interact with the. habitat. Introduce Kisi to her brothers. and the the next animals that we make. into that pack to make a small pack, but. they will stay on that secure expansive. ecological preserve that you were Yes. And you're not going to let them breed. No, the plan is not to let them breed. How will you prevent them from breeding? Well, at the at the moment, they're. separated, but we'll probably use a.

subcutaneous, you know, you can put a an. a an an hormonal contraceptive. Yes. Um, right. There's been some ideas of of. maybe So, we don't want to to castrate. them, which would obviously be a way to. stop it, but um because we want them to. be able to reach their full size because. we want to know what that would be, and. we want them to be able to have the. hormones to be able to do that. So, um, but they will be controlled. They're. they're, you know, we track them. There's cameras on them all the time. There's three separate layers of fencing. to keep them in. We know exactly where.

they are. They they couldn't get a. splinter without a camera somewhere. seeing it. And we know exactly what's. going on with them. Um, so yeah, we. we'll that sounds like a scene in. Jurassic Park. We we have a totally. understanding that scene. Yes. Don't. worry, we have cameras upon cameras. Oh, I was Do I sound like the scientist? I kind of do, actually. I was in Maitius. working. I'm a scientist. You don't. Jeff Goldblum was the scientist that got. I'm Henry Woo, right? I'm the chief. scientist, right? So I I'm a good guy.

for now. Right. Right. But he becomes a. bad guy in the future, right? So, I'm. looking forward to my evil transition. I'm not We're not making d We're not. making dinosaurs, but you know, there. were other cool animals that we have DNA. for. We have um I I heard you talking. about the the American cheetah. And so, I have we have two high quality genome. sequences from American cheetah. Wow. We. want them back to to help with our with. our population problems. So, let's let's get to the criticisms.

because there's people that are saying. that these are not direwolves. That what. you've done is just manipulate the DNA. of a greywolf. They are direwolves. because we have manipulated the DNA of. greywolves. We we took direwolf genome. sequences from animals, one animal that. lived 72,000 years ago and one animal. that lived 13,000 years ago, and we. lined them up next to each other and. figured out what it is that makes a. direwolf a direwolf. And then we used. the tools of genome engineering to bring.

those traits back in Romulus, Remis, and. Klesi, that are three direwolves that. are alive now. Um, and that has created. these animals that you saw that are. bigger and they're stronger and they. have that direwolf coat. And that's a. cool thing, too. That coat, the light. coat color that you see, was something. that we absolutely could not have known. without the ancient DNA because no one. has ever seen a direwolf. When we. published a paper before I joined.

Colossal many years ago that was about. direwolf evolution, um we had a paleo. artist reconstruct what direwolves look. like and they made them red and or reddy. brown and that's because so many other. animals seem to be ready brown like. mammoths are neanderls seem to have had. red hair and so we thought sure why not. We didn't know because we hadn't. sequenced the part of their genome that. we could use to see what color their. coats were. But both of these two. animals that we had higher coverage DNA. from had had gene variance in genes that. are associated with pigmentation. How.

our coats, the the hair color and eye. color and things like that that. suggested they had light colored coats. And so we thought that's cool. We'll. we'll have that as one of our key. direwolf traits that we're bringing. back. Is it possible that it's like. other wolves where there's a variation, but you would only sequence the DNA of. ones that had white? It's possible. Yeah. And I'm I'm sure there were. different colors, but it's interesting. to me that two animals that lived so far. apart from each other in time and. geography would both have this light. color coat. So maybe it wasn't that.

every direwolf had a light coat, but it. must have been a predominant color in. the population. What was the environment. in which they lived? So if they lived. 13,000 years ago, you're talking about. the ice age, right? Do you think that. that's why they had white hair? It's. possible both of these animals were from. northern part of their range where it. would have been colder. Um, they did. live through previous interglacial. periods 125,000 years ago. It was as. warm as it is today or even warmer with. predicted to be no ice at the poles. And. also, we know direwolves were really.

common around the LRA tarpits in Los. Angeles. We haven't been able to get any. DNA out of anything from Labraa. That. would be an amazing discovery. The tar. just destroys everything. Don't know if. it destroys it or if it gets into the. bone in a way that we can't get the DNA. out. So somehow inhibiting the recover. of of the DNA. We'll get there. I mean. it someday we'll we'll figure it out and. that's going to open up a lot of really. cool It kind of makes sense that like. polar bears having that white color. would a polar bears actually have it's.

clear, right? Yeah. They have their hair. is long and and it's clear in the end. That's why polar bears and have you seen. those pictures of bears in zoos where. they look polar bears in zoos where they. look green? No. They get covered in. moss. The It grows in the the hair is. hollow. Whoa. And so if they're too wet. and not cold enough, they can turn this. like weird Oh, they have mold inside. their hair. Oh, wow. But it just makes sense that them being. that color would have an evolutionary. advantage for hunting cuz you're in. something that's completely white. Yeah.

And you don't see like a grizzly bear. You'd see like, oh, look at that dark. blob. Yeah. That's moving towards us. We. did some work in my academic lab where. we discovered that polar bears and brown. bears hybridize with each other. Um, this is one of those funny stories about. academia with a scarcity mindset there. where we pub we submit a grant proposal. and we say, "Hey, we have this really. cool observation that polar bears and. brown bears hybridized during the last. ice age when they overlap with each. other and it gets rejected because. they're like, "That's dumb. We know that.

doesn't happen." And then we found. another hybrid polar bear from the. previous interglacial. And then there's. evidence that they're hybridizing today. go out and do this. Yeah. So whenever. they overlap geographically, they breed. But what's interesting about this is. that we always find the hybrids living. like brown bears. Even though it's. probably that the mom is a polar bear. because a brown bear boy will wake up, you know, from hibernation and go out. onto polar bear territory to scavenge.

for food. And a polar bear female is an. induced ovulator. Um whereas brown bear. females are seasonal. So a a polar bear. female will ovulate in the presence of a. male. So the male comes up to her and. will mate her. The the other way around. If a polar bear bear brown male had. encountered a brown bear female, he's. probably more likely to eat her than to. mate her. Right. Oh wow. And so but. that's weird then. So why do we always. find the hybrids living with brown bears.

instead of living with polar bears? And. the polar bear biologists who we've. worked with, I've worked a lot time with. Ian Sterling, who's a fantastic polar. bear biologist from Canadian Wildlife, and he his hypothesis is straightforward. that they can't successfully hunt seals. if they don't have that white fur. Ah, completely makes sense. It does, right? cuz they they have that ability to swim. and they dive under the water and. they're also like really clever and how. they use those ice shelves and swim from. one eye shelf to another. Yeah. But they.

hide in I mean they even have those. things where they cover their nose the. with their hand the black nose with. their hand because the black nose I know. it's insane, right? Biology is cool. It. is cool. It's cool like to think of like. how they became successful doing that. way. Who figured that out? How do they. have the self-awareness to know that the. end of their nose is dark and that other. animals can see it? But they also. hybridize just given the chance to do. so, right? They'll because biology. doesn't recognize species concepts,

right? Biology doesn't care that that. animal's called a brown bear by us and. that animal's called a polar bear. They. run into each other. They're like, "Cool." Just like our Neanderl. ancestors, right? Are those hybrids are. are they are they fertile? Can can they. have babies? Yeah. This is actually how. we discovered it because we found that. the place where brown bears hybridized. with polar bears during the last ice age. was probably the ABC islands off the. coast of Alaska because the ice was that. far south at the peak of the last ice. age. And brown bear boys would move onto.

the islands as the habitat got better. where they encountered these populations. of polar bears that had been stranded. there as the ice receded pretty much. And so they hybridized there. And all. brown bears in North America today have. ancestry from that ad mixture with polar. bears. Geez. Wow. That's so fascinating. Yeah. It's just like how we all have. ancestry from mixing with Neanderls. And. is that from the German zoo. because there's a a couple of bears at.

it. I really looks like a hybrid, doesn't it? Yeah. It looks like there's. a lot of traits of both of them. Yeah. It's impressive. Bears are some of the. most fascinating animals ever. Paws. Yeah. It's just an incredible animal. Um, so. that's it's really I'm really glad you. said it that way that nature doesn't. know that there's a polar bear and a. brown bear. Why would it? Right. It's. just our definitions. Is this part of. the problem with the criticism of this. science is that we are being very.

specific about what we're calling these. things based on our own definitions that. we've all agreed upon. Yeah. But that. the true nature of genes is that there's. this like proliferation and fluctuation. and all these animals breed with each. other and it's like it's kind of that. but it's also that we haven't agreed. right. So there's this group of academic. scientists who are trying to say trying.

to grasp so tightly to this very precise. definition of a species as having to do. with DNA. how much DNA matches something. else. But that is and it's interesting. I think the reason that we keep having. this conversation is because it's. genuinely interesting to talk about. species concepts. We have come up with, you know, dozens of different species. concepts and they're all for a. particular purpose. You know, if I am. wanting to have a conversation about. dinosaur fossils or anything that's a.

fossil, I'm going to use the. morphological species concept because. that's all I've got. I'm gonna compare. the shape of this bone with the shape of. this bone. And if they're similar enough. to my trained eye, I'm gonna call that a. a species. I saw you had a a bison. prriscus. I'm going to say skull out. there. This is that's from the from. that's from the boneyard. Yeah. Step. bison. Yeah. Step bison. Bison prriscus. or bison crassicornis, bison. oxidentalis, bison aliscansis, bison I.

could go on forever. You know this is. there the naming of bison was like sport. in the you know 18th 19th century mostly. 19th century. Did you go to the bone lab. the boneyard? I haven't I've been to his. I didn't go with Ben but I've been. working up in that part of the world for. 30 years. We we spend a lot of time. working at gold mines outside of Dawson. City in Have you been to Dawson City? No. It's amazing. Like it's an old timey. gold town. Dirt roads, wooden sidewalks.

Like the buildings are all crooked. because the the fire is burned at one. end and it melts the perafrost. underneath and it goes. It's where I. learned what you're supposed to do when. a fight breaks out in the bar that. you've gone into. What are you supposed. to do? Grab your beer. Back up. Right. No. Get out of there. Otherwise, your. beer's going to get knocked over. I'm. not leaving. You're not leaving when a. fight breaks out. Not in Dawson City. There's mosquitoes outside. No, it's I. would tell you to leave. It's a weird place. They unless they're. women. Women fighting don't scare me as.

much as men fighting. But then women can. pull out guns. That's true. But this is. it's Canada, so less likely for that to. happen than in Alaska. But this is there. have been weird things happen there. And. you know there's um you go out to the. bars in Dawson City. I'm Why am I. telling these stories? This is. ridiculous. You go to the bars in Dawson. City and they still have this thing. where there's the bell. And if you ring. the bell, the person who's rg the bell. is buying a round for everybody who's in. the bar and you learn after you've been. there for a while that a person is only.

ringing that bell because he wants the. right to talk to everybody who's in. there because he wants to fight with. somebody. Right? This is somebody who's. like a diamond driller who's just got. paid in cash for the first time and he's. like, "Now I want to [ __ ] somebody up.". Right? So he comes in, really that's. what they want to do when they get paid. rings a bell and then goes from table to. table sitting around with people and we. the like nerdy scientist paleo. geneticists sitting in the corner are. trying to just be super nice Canadians. like talking to these people like I. don't want to fight you know and he's. just looking to fight with someone just.

yeah just looking to fight boy yeah it's. a weird part of the world it's it's it's. a fun place to work but anyway I I. digress there's gold mines like that. like the site outside Fairbanks that are. super productive like this and every one. of the miners out there has like this. cool collection. Not any nearly as cool. as his, but but because he's got so much. land, they've been collecting it for. such a long time. Um, and I heard these. those great stories about how he donated. material to the American Museum. Well, it was previous owners of his property, right? Uh cuz Right. That's the case,

right? And they dumped it in the East. River. And so they denied dumping it in. the East River. So then they hired these. guys to go and dive for it. And John. Reeves told everybody where it was. I. don't know if he hired him or just told. him, but so these guys uh dove into the. East River. They found step bison, bones, jaw fragments, all sorts of. different Do you know what I think is. great about that story? I really like. it, right? Because I'm sure it's true. because they have so much of that. material at the American Museum. When I.

started working on bison, and I've. worked on bison for 30 years, right? When I started working on bison, getting. back to the species concept, I was. trying to figure out if the DNA mapped. to these species names. And they've got. a fantastic collection at the AM&H, but. a lot of it is crap. You know, there's. so much bone there, broken pieces or. other pieces, and you get to the point. where you're like, "What the hell am I. going to do with this?" Now, they. shouldn't have dumped it in the river. Obviously, that's dumb. But he is going. to get the last laugh. He won't know. because he'll be long dead. But in. 10,000 years, when the paleontologists. of the future are looking in that river,

they're going to be like, "What the. fuck?" Right? Cuz there's like tons of. it out there apparently. What happened. here? They found what is that guy's. name? Dirty Water Dawn, is that his. name? This one guy who's one of the. divers, he's found multiple pieces. Yeah, I'm sure it's there. Like, and. they probably didn't mean anything. terrible by it. They were just Who. knows? Those people aren't even around. anymore. I think this was in the 20s, wasn't it? Probably around the 50s. That. was when the most of the collection came. from. There was a ton of gold mining. activity in the 50s and 60s around.

Fairbanks. So, what they have found on. John's property that's so spectacular is. that it's really only a few acres that. he's getting all this stuff from, which. makes you question like how did all. these animals die off in mass in this. very small area. Yeah. Where you you've. got warehouses filled with bones and. tusks and Yeah. Near Dawson in it's. called the Klondike region, you have. this really fine glacial silt and that. settles in different places in in. different quantities and it settles.

really quickly. So you get this really. fast, thick buildup of this really fine. silt that preserves the bones really. well. So when we go, the gold miners are. they're plaster mining. So they're. taking these high pressure water hoses. and washing away this frozen dirt. Then. they let it thaw for a bit and then they. wash away the next layer. They're trying. to get to the goldbearing gravel that's. underneath. But while they're doing. that, literally thousands, tens of. thousands of bones come out of there. And in some places there's it's more. rich, more intense than others, but it's. there. I've taken students up there and. they're all, you know, mopey because of.

the mosquitoes and, you know, they're. mopey because they're 19 and they're. like, "Oh, we're never gonna find. anything." They jump out of the trucks. and they're like, "Holy [ __ ] is that a. mammoth tooth?" Like, "Yeah, that's a. mammoth tooth." Yeah. Yeah. Is that what. you brought? That's what I brought you. Yeah. This is a It's a fossil. This is. from South Carolina. But Wow. That's. from South Carolina. And it's a fossil. You can see it's a fossil. I know they. make knife handles out of this stuff, which seems to me it's kind of gross. Yeah, that has um Oh, it has your logo. on it. Of course, it's branded. It's.

colossal, you know. Um Yeah, it's our. logo. Wow. But yeah, mammoths. It Do you. know the story about um our founding. fathers and mammoths? No. Yeah. So, Thomas Jefferson was obsessed. with mammoths. Yeah. How did he even. know about them? So they were there were. it's probably masttodons because it was. these teeth that were melting out of the. salt lakes and things like that in in. the part of the United States. But he. was he was obsessed with them. He was. getting his friends to to mail him teeth.

that he was finding. And he was um this. is this is a funny story. Let me see if. I can get it right. You should look this. up too because it's hilarious. Um how. mammoths made America great before and. now when we bring our mammoth back, we're going to do it again. So, uh, there was a guy in in France who was. writing a series of books. He was like. Compon, I think, was his name. I'm terrible with. French, so I probably did it wrong, but. he was writing a series of books and. about natural history. And the fifth, I. think, of his books was called uh, the.

theory of American degeneracy and when. it was essentially about how all. American animals were more [ __ ] than. animals from everywhere else in the. world. And it was during the war of. independence. And so it was really. popular to hate on American stuff, right? Really. And so so he couldn't. have pissed off Thomas Jefferson more if. he'd tried. He didn't know anything. about Thomas Jefferson. He was busy. fighting with Lanaeus. And Lanaeus was. busy classifying things. And this guy. was like, there's no more than 200.

species of animals anywhere. So why. would you bother with that sort of. academic silliness rather than think. about like how the animals got this way. in the first place? in his mind, like. discovering why American animals were so. [ __ ] was the right way to be spending. your time as a natural historian. But. this pissed Teddy Roosevelt off. And so. he was trying to figure out how he could. prove to this guy that American animals. were actually better bigger. So he was. getting his friends to compile lists of. things about like how American bears are.

bigger than European bears. American. wolves are bigger than European wolves. that it isn't that you know you come to. America like this guy said and you get. you suddenly get weaker and your blood. gets watery. That was what he thought. That's what he and it was really it was. a bestseller apparently. That's. incredible. So they thought like living. under oppression was really good for. you. It's like strength training. They were. probably imagining I guess when people. came over they did there were new. diseases. They probably did get sick and. so there was probably something in it. But so Jefferson went so far as he had.

um he had a moose sent to this guy's. house on his doorstep, but it was like. partly rotten when he'd gotten there and. somebody put the wrong, you know, antlers on its head. It was just like. really dumb. But his his main feature. was mammoths that he knew that this. animal he didn't think they were extinct. at the time and nobody really knew about. the idea of extinction. He was convinced. that Louiswis and Clark were going to. find them, that people were going to. find these mammoths still there. that. was going to prove. Isn't that.

incredible when you just think that just. a few hundred years ago that was the. pinnacle of science? That was like the. peak of understanding of all the species. that were still alive. We really didn't. know. What I don't understand about this. is how a person who is a scientist can. look at how everything has changed in a. couple hundred years or in 20 years when. it comes to genetics and still say, "Oh, we know everything." Like I'm right. Like I think it's what you were saying. earlier. It's a famine mentality. Yeah.

It's just weak people's minds. There's. and there's weak human beings out there. The way they think is a very weak way of. thinking and they want all the attention. for themselves and they're very. egotistical and it's also very supported. by academia. There's a lot of [ __ ]. infighting in academia. It's really. gross. Late 18th century the idea of. extinction was only just beginning to be. popularized by some thinkers. George. Kovier. His Kovier. Yeah. Jefferson. wasn't among the believers. In a. pre-darwinian age, extinction was a.

violation of religious ideals. God would. not let animals go extinct and secular. ideas. The balance of nature could never. be so significantly upset. So for. Jefferson in particular, extinction was. just an unusual theory. It's fine. The. bones exist, he wrote. Therefore, the. animal has existed. The mo movements of. nature are in a neverending circle. Well, that would that's the real. question. Like there have been animals. that went extinct and then came back, right? The direwolf, right? But that was.

because of you guys. Wasn't there like a. bird that they thought was extinct and. then returned? Then they didn't go. extinct, right? Right. Like sort of like. the Tasmanian tiger. They just became or. Bigfoot. Oh, no. Tasmanian tiger was. definitely real. But some scene, but. Bigfoot was real. It was. Gigantoopythecus. They think that that. was real. But Giganopycus is really old, right? But and but and would have. changed until today. I mean, I told you. I have tested. People send me all kind. of crazy things. The the insulation was. was one of my favorites. This is.

something that I got while I was still. doing my PhD. People would send us all. sorts of crazy things. They sent you. insulation. They said it's Bigfoot fur. Yeah. It was from a guy somewhere. No, no, no, no, no. They didn't say it was. fur. No, it was better than that. It was. Yeah. He um it was from somewhere in the. Carolinas. I can't remember where. and. he'd sent a letter and it was a. handwritten letter on his personal. stationary which had a naked girl. dancing around a pole which gave him. obviously more credibility. That's his stationary. He's emailing you. from his strip club. It was it was a. written letter. A letter from his strip. club. Sorry. Everything's an email to me.

now. It's a while ago. And he sent um a. couple of cutings of insulation from his. basement telling me that the family of. Bigfoots that lived in his basement he. had seen urinating on this insulation. And so if I was going to get Bigfoot. DNA, it was going to be from from that. insulation. Oh boy. Did you test it? Of. course I did. You really did? What? I. would tested him for meth. I said, I'll. test something. Let me let me find out. what you're doing, dude. You're Bigfoot. peas in your basement. I didn't I didn't.

get any Gigantopithecus DNA. It was. there was some human DNA on it. So what. was the year that Gigantopithecus we. believe went extinct? Like so the bones. were found in an apothecary shop in. China in the early 20th century, right? I don't I don't actually know. Um I. think. millions of years old. I think the story. is that an anthropologist was in an. apothecary shop in China and found the. bones. I think this was in I think it. was in the early 20th century. And I. think he said, "Uh, where'd you get.

this?" Like he's got giant primate. teeth. And they they took him to the. place and they found jawbones that. indicated it was bipeedal. And then they. started like digging and discovering. I. don't think they have a full skeleton. Oh, it's so cool. Well, most things from. paleo anthropology are, you know, I'm. going to rewrite human history because I. found a partial jawbone with three born. teeth. Here's the problem, right? Um, you could tell me whether this is. correct. Most things will never be. fossils. Right. Right. So, we don't even. know how many species existed and never.

left a fossil, right? Because fossils. are hard to make, right? So, we're. essentially getting the tiniest little. bits of information and we're trying to. piece together this understanding of. millions and millions and millions of. years of creatures on this earth. And to. do so arrogantly seems so crazy, right? To to be arrogant about something that. has just by the nature of its existence, how do you find it? It's a very limited. resource, right? This is one of the.

super fun things about ancient DNA, right? So, I think I don't know remember. who it was who said this, but um we. don't have any idea if your bone, you. paleo anthropologists, if your bone has. descendants, but I know that my DNA has. ancestors. So, I can learn a ton by. sequencing the DNA from the people that. are around. And if I am lucky enough to. get it from these bones that I know is. real about human history and paleo. anthropologists and archaeologists in.

the beginning of ancient DNA hated it. because it was going in and going, "Oh. no, turns out you were wrong about. that." Yeah. Oh, Neanderls and humans. didn't didn't interbreed. Oh, turns out. you were wrong about that. Oh, I. remember them teaching us that in high. school based on what data though? I. know. But that's the thing is they. taught it so arrogantly. Did people. breed with Neander? Nope. that was. impossible that they would say it so. arrogantly. This is just high school. teachers and now we know that they did. and we've been able to learn so many. cool things about humans from studying.

this Neanderl genome. I I mean I know. people get hung up on DNA and how you. need lots of DNA to define a species, but we have been able now to look I. think one of the coolest things that. we've learned from the Neanderl genome. is that we all know that we have. somewhere between, you know, two and 5%. Neanderl DNA in our genomes. We kind of. get that now. You can get your DNA. tested at one of these DNA testing. places and they'll even tell you how. much Neanderl you are. So you can have a.

competition with your brother and your. cousins, right? I'm more Neanderl than. you. I'm amazing. Have you seen my. forehead? Less wellknown though is that we all. have a different two to 5% Neanderl DNA. And if you were to go around the world. and collect all of the Neanderl DNA. sequences that are in people alive. today, we could put together like 93% of. the Neanderl genome. Wow. That's cool, right? So that's crazy. Two questions. then. Are they actually extinct? If we.

can put together 93% of their genome by. pulling together people who are alive. today, that's just a, you know, fun. philosophical question. Second is what. the hell is going on in that other 7%, right? And if we want to know what it is. that makes us human, that's where we. look, right? That's where we ask what. are the mutations that arose since we. split from Neanderls that if a baby got. that part of the Neanderl DNA, it didn't. survive. It couldn't make it as a human.

That is the bit that is important to. define us. We've actually been able to. narrow that down. There's less than a. hundred genes, we think less than a. hundred mutations in genes now that have. evolved since that split that most. people that are alive today have. And. that is what makes us human. I think I I'm still fixated on what you. said earlier because I think it's so. important that we decided what these. animals were. We gave them these very. specific names, right? And that genes in.

nature don't they don't care what we're. saying. They it doesn't there's this. weird thing that's happening from the. time we were proto hominids to what we. are today. It makes sense though. We we. want to have a conversation, right? And. if we want to talk about something, we. have to call it something, right? Australus, right? So, we have species. concepts that we designed that allow us. to have a conversation and know what. we're talking about. So, when I talk. about and I call this fossil a name, you.

and I know that we're having that same. conversation. If I am in charge of. delineating species because I'm trying. to figure out which uh which agency has, you know, is going to care to care for. this endangered species. I might use. geography to figure out what one species. is and what another species is. The. species concept that we learn when we. take our introductory biology course is. a species concept that was developed in. the middle part of the 20th century. called the biological species concept.

which says you're a species if you can. breed and if your offspring are fertile, right? But we know that lots of things. violate that. Brown bears and polar. bears, we just talked about how they're. hybrids. Humans and Neanderls violate. that. Um, cattle and bison violate that. to a way less of an extent than we. thought that they did. This is actually. a cool story that I that I do. You know. what a buffalo is? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it the female cow and the male. bison or vice versa? No. A buffalo is a.

breed of hybrid that is 5/8 cattle and. 3/8 bison that is supposedly has better. meat. Do they do it on purpose? Yes. It. was one of these breeds that they tried. to make. But does it work both ways? Does it work with a male bison and a. female cow or a male bull and a female. bison? Does it work both ways? Barely. works at all. Oh, do they do it. artificially or do they have them party. together? No, this No, they just lied.

Oh, yes. It's fake. It's not real. Oh my. goodness. So, I've always I've I've. spent a lot of time being interested in. this. sort of ad mixture history and so I was. interested in brown bears and polar. bears and humans in the ends and and. what is it that suddenly makes a species. not able to breed with another species? What is it that causes that sort of last. wall to go up and then suddenly you're. the biological species. Yeah. What. exactly is it? Can we figure it out? And. so I wanted to look at these different.

species pairs. And we knew about Buffalo. because people have, you know, Buffalo. ranches that you there's a Buffalo of. the week. You should look that up. because because this is going to be like. there's Buffalo of the week competition. where you see these animals. Anyway, so. people in the early 20th century decided. that they wanted to make hybrid cattle. and bison because they wanted animals. that were as robust in the North. American prairies as bison, but as tame. and easy to deal with as cattle. they. started breeding them together and we're. just like this isn't working. You know,

this is really hard. When we get the. F1s, that's first generation hybrids, often it's only the females and they're. not reproductive. You know, there's. problems here. We can't can't do this. And um because the Yeah. And and so then. people kept trying to do it because they. really wanted to do this. And then there. was this guy called uh I can't remember. the name of the person who actually did. it. Uh who claimed that he had been able. to create this animal that was 3/8 bison.

and 5/8s cattle. And he sold his animal. to a guy called Bud Basolo in California. who created this herd of 5,000 buffalo. And it was announced with great fanfare. like front pages of newspapers. He sold. one animal to a farmer in Canada for. $2.5 million 1975. It's still the most. expensive single animal that has ever. been sold, right?$ two and a half. million 1975 for this animal. And so we. have this thing. I was like, we're going. to sample them. We were working with uh.

collaborators from the USDA. We were. reaching out to people um reaching out. to ranches and saying, "Can we have a. piece of your piece of some of your. stuff?" And they were like, "Not sure. about research on this." And so we. started buying tongues because if you. buy steak, you just get the same animal. over and over again, but they all have. one tongue. So you can just buy tongues. and then you get lots of different. animals. We sequence their genomes and. then we got from the USDA their expired. sperm straws that they have for the. animals that they they give away to. start your beef thing. We sequence their. genomes as well including this $2 and a.

half million dollar 1975 individual. And. we've done a lot of work on bison and. cattle throughout the last you know 30. years of my life. And so we have this. big plot that shows bison on one side. and cattle on the other. and we had made. a hybrid so we could sequence their. genomes. He wasn't born. It was an. aborted animal because, you know, it's. very hard to make a hybrid. He fell. right in between them in the middle. where you would expect them to be. So. now we know exactly where we think our. buffalo should be. You know, they're 58. cattle, 38 bison. They should fall out.

closer to cattle, but still up here. And. so you plot them and they're all just. cattle 100%. They're just cattle. It was. fake. So did they use like Highland. cattle or something like that that have. those crazy furs? There's some evidence. that they used zebu. So it's a that's a. different type of cattle. It's the one. that came from Asia. They have them in. Brazil because they have a hump. So it. makes it look a little bit more like. bison. Oh. But if you look at it, if you. look at the pictures of the buffalo of. the week, you look at them and you're. like, "Yeah, those are cattle. Let me. see a buffalo." Jamie,

when I did the beef of the week, I was. went down a weird path, so I just kind. of Oh, boy. Wrong websites. No, I just. didn't It didn't seem like I was on the. same path. When was this all discovered. that these are just cattle? Oh, just. look up buffalo and then you look at. historic buffalo. You can see the. pictures of historic buffalo. Yeah. When was it discovered that that. these are just cattle? Um, we just. published the paper like a few months. ago. Oh, no. So, this poor dude from. 1975 that spent 2 million bucks. Yeah.

And he sold it back to Pollo for some of. the money getting back. I mean, I think. there was a thing going on there. So, these people are out here still selling. Buffalo. Like, it's real. like this is a. website and they're hybrid with. something. They're mixed with a little. bit of zebu. Um some of them have a. little bit of bison in them, but this is. a they're just cows. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I talked to Steve Vanella about. this. I know that he's he's a friend of. He was like, "That's hilarious." It is. hilarious. It's very funny. It does look.

different than a regular cow, though. A. little bit. I mean, they were trying to. do that, right? And we can we can. engineer everything. It doesn't a. Chihuahua looks different from a Great. Dane, but their DNA has a lot the same. So, in 1975, how much of an. understanding of this stuff did we have? Did these people think that they were. doing this or was it just a scam? I. think it Well, this is me speculating at. this point. I think he had to know, right? And there was at one point there. was a test a blood test that they had. done where they were looking for markers. in the blood and there were five.

different markers and they tested about. 150 different animals and they published. a paper saying oh look we tested all. these animals. None of them have all of. the markers. One of them has one of the. markers and we just think the test is. bad. Oh. no. Just boy. Yeah. Fun. Anyway, I. digress. I don't remember what we were. talking about. Well, we're just talking. about a bunch of different animals that. used to exist. You know, we were talking. about uh Gigantoopycus at one point in. time. You said it's really old. Was it a.

100,000 years ago? They speculate the. age of them. Older older. Yeah. I I. don't know. Maybe two two million to. approximately 3 to 200,000 years ago. Okay. So, as recently as 200,000 years. ago. Do you like kind of. homo sapiens are like 300 400,000 years. diverge from Neandertos is that like. around that time? Yeah. So it is. possible that at one point and and so. this is just a very limited amount of. bones, right? It's just limited just.

like everything else in in paleo. anthropology. So it's possible that they. existed later than that. We just haven't. found those samples yet. Maybe just. really cool. This is just about how we. don't know anything. Um, we can actually. get DNA directly from sediments. And. this has been a relatively recent. revelation. It's super cool because it. means that you can take a plug of dirt. from the inside of a lake and you can. reconstruct the whole ecosystem as it. changes over time. Super cool, right? Wow. But recently there was a paper that.

was published by some colleagues of mine. that had done this for sites in Canada. and they found mammoth DNA and horse DNA. in Canada in these really wellpreserved. parts of the world where we've been. working that date to probably around. 4,000 5,000 years ago. Horse DNA? Yes. In that's weird, right? because they're. supposed to be extinct in North America. when 10,000 around the last but you know. there are a lot of Native American. cultures who believe that they have a. long history of the horse and that the. horses survived and it's it's just. dismissed because we don't have evidence.

for it but until we find DNA directly in. dirt. I mean this is just showing us how. much we don't know how much we have to. be really willing to you know obviously. we have a model of the way the world. works and we don't just throw away the. model with new data but we have to. incorporate the new data right you can't. be arrogant about the model so the model. is if you correct me if I'm wrong that. horses evolved in North America but it. went to other continents but then. eventually died off in North America but. survived elsewhere. Yeah. Eohhippus the.

very first horses are from 50 million. years ago. They're found in Wyoming. We. the fossil deposits in Wyoming. Those. are the little cat house cat- sized. horses. House cat-sized horses. Yeah. But you know, this is early horses. around the same time as we have the. first primates and the first of the. other things that that we know. That's. so fascinating. It's so cool. So. fascinating. Well, this we were talking. about this the other day, the the the. big debate that happened with Clovis. first that they used to think that human. beings they came over here at a very. specific time and then they found those.

footprints in White Sands, New Mexico. and they're like, "Okay, we got to. rethink this and we're being forced to. rethink this." And it was another time. where archaeologists were horrible to. each other. These scientists were. horrible to each other because they. attacked the guy who made the discovery. They said, "This is nonsense. This is. impossible. We know. were very clear. which is the this arrogance. Yeah. They. did that to Zakamar who discovered the. the the bones in Alaska and northern. Canada that had cut marks on them that. were older than the accepted time of. when humans could be there. And you know.

now everybody accepts that as it's true. We know that they can. It's so gross. It's so gross. And they keep doing it. over and over and over again. So then. the question is okay if we have 22,000y. old footprints. how many thousands of years were they. here before that? Like were have they. always been here? How'd they get here? Like what's the earliest known humans? You know, we we know that there's no. Neander dolls here so far. So far, so. far there's no Dennisovvens, but you. imagine they found a different kind of. human. Wasn't there something that came.

up where they found some human that. lived. god I want to say 6,000 years ago and. his DNA is different? This is like very. recent, different than anybody that. they've ever discovered before. So. they're like, "Okay, well, that would be. interesting." I think this is like super. recent, like yesterday or the day. before. But it's just these things keep. they keep finding new stuff. Here it is. 6,000y old skeletons. uh with never-before-seen DNA rewrites. human history. Huh. Yeah. So this was.

just June 7th. Yeah. I don't know. anything about this. Yeah. They. uncovered 6,000y old skeletons in. Colombia that belong to mysterious group. of people that could rewrite human. history. It doesn't match any of the. other known indigenous populations. Their genetic signature reveals a. distinct now extinct lineage that may. have descended from the earliest humans. to reach South America. One that. diverged early and remain genetically. isolated for thousands of years. Yeah, this is I mean I have no doubt that this. is true. I mean, how many of these human.

settlements are are gone now and so we. don't have any evidence of them? And. they're all lineages that they all go. back to humans originating in Africa at. some point, but we haven't seen all of. them. We haven't seen all of the. pattern. We don't know even what. questions we should be asking. You know. what? You guys really need to try to. bring back those little tridactyl. skeletons they find in Peru. You That's. like when we had Luke Caverns on and. Jesse when when we had Jesse Michaels on. the other day who has an amazing YouTube.

show. Both of them great guys. Uh they. were showing us these skeletons that. they found in Peru that are very. bizarre. And people initially thought. they were a hoax, but then they found. these newer ones that they've discovered. that they have three fingers and three. toes. They've done cat scans on these. things and they seem to be human or. humanlike these things. Yeah, I've seen. of these. They're amazing. Well, like I. thought 100% horseshit when I first saw. them cuz I think some of them are. horseshit. Yeah. But then when they've. done like look at that image below where.

they do like x-rays of them like come on. like what the hell is that? Like what is. that? That seemed that there's no way if. again I'll say it again but if that's. art let me buy it. Like if somebody made. that so those those x-rays are from the. the the things themselves. I think I've. seen some of these before. The cat scans. are even weirder. Are they? cuz the CAT. scans when they show like these the the. 3D uh CAT scan of the body, you're. seeing all the the areas where the. cartilage is and it just look but it.

doesn't look totally human cuz this is. it. So they have three fingers and three. toes. It's really weird stuff like. there's layers of them as they go, you. know, as you go through a CAT scan. Now, how old are they? I've dig these. I've. seen some of the reports. This is the. thing that was presented to the Mexican. government at some point. This is Peru. The Mexican ones seem to be horshit. Okay. It seems like, and the guy who. discovered them, air quotes, right, seems to have a history of finding silly. things. But this seems real. This seems. very real. Like, look at this thing.

What's that on the neck? Exactly. What. is that on the neck? Who the hell knows? Like, who the hell know? Why does it. have so many ribs? Like, look at it. Go. back to that image where it shows the. back, Jamie, where it was like Yeah. Like when. you see this thing, this guy's not like. showing you the full body in this. particular image. Whatever the hell that. thing is on the back of its head is. weird. The shape of its head is very. weird, but it looks real. Like whatever. if if you guys could find that that's. real. I know you won't bring back.

Neanderthalss, but why don't you bring. back one of them little three-toed alien. people? I don't know. I mean, you would. still have to ask their permission. It. looks like a person. Listen, just talk. to them. Bring them back. If they say, shoot them in the head, right? Easy. I. don't know what to tell you, but bring. them back. Like some things you just. have to do. Like if we find out that. that thing was a a real thing, like what. is that? Yeah. What's that thing in the. back of its head? Have people tried to. do DNA work or protein work on these. things? I think there's a there's a. small select group of people that are.

even taking it seriously, but more. people are taking it seriously now. because of the CAT scans. Because I. think initially, have you seen the. original ones? The ones that look super. fake? Yes. The ones that look super fake. look like something you'd buy in like a. roadside roadside stand. They look. totally [ __ ] But then um I I was. going back and forth with uh Jesse. Michaels and uh Luke Caverns and they. were sending me these images of I think. it was 800 BC. This is how old these.

drawings are in these tapestries that. show these weird three-toed uh. three-fingered things that look like a. like a little one of those things like. So, was this another type of human that. lived with us at some point in time? It's interesting. There are the three. toaded and three fingers thing is. interesting. I wonder if there's a. genetic mutation that would lead to. that. You've seen the the tribe there's. a isolated tribe that has the two. Yeah. Yeah. Very weird. Yeah. So, maybe that.

was that. Maybe that's what that was. I. mean, who knows? It'd be fascinating to. see if there's any DNA that could be. recovered or proteins. Yeah. Yeah. So, why don't you guys get down to Peru? Yeah. I'll I'll run it by Ben. See what. he thinks. He would be into it. Ben. seems like he'd be like, "Let's go.". Like, if you could find Gigantoopythecus. DNA, I think Ben would want to bring. back Bigfoot. Yes. Probably. Let's not. tell him that this is I think that's. what Bigfoot is. Don't you think. Giganopythecus? Yeah. Was it in Asia. though? Like Bigfoot is supposed to be.

in North America. Well, they found the. bones in China. Yeah. So, it could have. come across. Is Make sure that story is. right that I said I'm pretty sure that's. true. Gigantoopycus bones found in. apothecary shop in China. I was Yeah, I. was I just didn't want to bring it up. That's a guy named Ralph Von. Conigwall 1935. They're being sold as. dragon bones. So, they bought a bunch of stuff and. then they started looking at them and. found out that that's not what they. were. That looks so 35 right early to.

middle place. in China. That was super interesting. And I wonder, you know, if these. populations were there, they're there at. the same time as Denise were there and. Neandertols were there, they would have. if they could have hybridized with. humans, they probably Gez, who knows? Yeah, we know so little, right? Well, it seems to like if it. coexisted with Homo sapiens, so I mean, but when did it start existing, right? How long was it? I mean, we know that. Neanderthalss were around for what, 300,000 years or so. Yep. Which is kind.

of crazy when you think that people, you. know, we've really only been running. things for a small period of time. That. I don't know who added this. Closely. allied with orangutans. Once thought to. be a homonym, now thought to be closely. allied with orangutans. Once thought to. be a member of the human line. Well, it was thought for a long time. that orangutans were our closest living. relative as well. Have you ever seen. them spear fishing? No. Yeah, they've. learned how to spear fish. That's. amazing. They don't know whether it's.

from observing people. That's what they. assume. But there's this crazy. photograph of this orangutang hanging. onto his branch and he's got a long. stick in his hand and he's like leaning. into the river stabbing a fish. You got. to see it cuz it's so crazy. Did they. learn from us? We don't not necessarily. know. So cool. Isn't that crazy? Really. crazy. Like he's figured out how to. catch fish. Yeah. Really? Oh, says after. observing locals, which totally makes. sense, right? Smart. Yeah. I mean, he's. seen people catch a fish and like he's. like, whoa, how did you do that? Which.

is probably how people learned. Like. some really smart ape guy was like, you. know, I think I can hit that bird with a. rock. You know, learning and being able. to communicate is one of the ways that. we got the advantage over everything. else, right? Because I don't have to. evolve the ability to cook dinner. I can. learn from my mom. Right. Right. Right. But that's what's so fascinating about. living today is you don't have to even. learn from someone who's anywhere near. you. You're learning from things on your. phone instantaneously on your laptop.

And you don't have to learn because. there's Door Dash, right? You can stay. alive very easy. That's true, too. But. it's just, you know, when AI gets. involved in this stuff, when we have. sentient AI that you can use to try to, you know, figure out what the. consequences of bringing certain species. back and whether or not it will be a pro. or a con like what, you know, that's. that's where things get weird. Like if. we decide, okay, let's bring back the. willy mammoth. Okay, what's going to be.

the negative impact of bringing back the. woolly mammoth? Well, they're going to. eat a lot. So, uh, they're going to push. out sensient AI to do that. I mean, we. have No, you don't. But, but humans will. make decisions based on biased evidence. We'll we'll make decisions based on our. the the potential for a financial. windfall. You know, we'll we'll we'll. gaslight people into thinking things are. really a good idea and oh, it's safe for. everyone and we'll we'll do things if we. know that we could profit. Whereas if. you have AI that's going to be.

completely objective and its only. mission is to analyze the outcome. Yeah. That world, you know, we're we're. actually working with teams of people. that are external to Colossal to put. together the rewing plans and that sort. of thing for each of the different. species. We're not planning to rewild. the direwolves, but we still have done. this. We've put together a plan of what. the potential impacts would be, but we. deliberately keep that outside and hire. people to put this together for us. And. we haven't been delivered this yet. So, we'll see what it says when we get it.

Like, uh, are they going to say to us? They're going to kill everything. They are not going to kill everything. because they're not going to be rew. What animal do you think Well, obviously. you guys are working with the red wolves. and you plan to use which which are. normal native animals in North America. that are threatened, which most people. would agree is a good idea to give them. a healthy population and release them. And that's that's the the best argument. because there's a lot of people saying, "Oh, this work could be used for. conservation. It is being used for. conservation." That's that's so.

infuriating about some of these haters. So, it's like they don't even bother. looking it up or they don't care because. they just want attention and they just. want to be negative and that's the best. way to get attention. They want the. click, right? And the best way to get. that click is to whine. Yeah. To whine. and complain. It's annoying. Yeah. It's. gross. But they have to be themselves. That's their punishment. You know, that's the life you've chose. You just. want to be this [ __ ] person. You're. going to say that one thing forever and. people are going to be like, "Oh, congratulations. You get a lot of. attention for just being super negative. all the time." But the the if you had to.

like look at their argument like the so. the argument of like not doing this and. that you're not really creating a. direwolf and this is just you're just. taking direwolf genes and adding them to. greywolves. Have you ever have. conversations with these people where. they want to tell you that what you're. doing is wrong and what is your response. to these people? I think that the this. idea that um the technology that we are. developing is something that we.

shouldn't be developing because it's. it's wrong. It's uh um we're somehow. playing God. Yes. I mean people have. been playing God for as long as we've. existed as a lineage. First by making. species become extinct as we spread. around the world. Not intentionally. initially, but we changed the habitat. We hunt things. Then we figured out that. we didn't have to make a species go. extinct in order to feed our families. And so we evolved domestication. We. figured out how to only take the males. or leave the juveniles or some way of.

maintaining that population so that you. knew you could go back to the hunt the. next year and they would be there again. And we domesticated things. And then we. transformed to really authority over. everything. When we protect a species, people who think about conservation. often think of this as super handsoff. Like, I'm not doing anything. Everything. just gets to evolve the way that it. should be. That's [ __ ] Like, we. decide how many animals live, where they. get to live, what they get to eat, how. many they get to eat. We call them when.

we want to. We protect them if we want. to. We don't if we want to. We are as. gods, as Stuart Brand wrote in the whole. Earth Catalog, right? And we just better. get good at it. These technologies are. not exactly the same as the technologies. that our ancestors had because we are. directly changing DNA sequences, but. they are technologies that we can deploy. to hopefully try to fix some of the. things that we have [ __ ] up already. Right? And I I think the biggest.

challenge that I have is to show people. that deciding not to allow ourselves the. space that we need to figure out what we. can do with these technologies. We're. still operating within regulatory. frameworks. We're still operating within. the bounds of biological reality. There's a long way to go here. But if we. decide that that's too scary, that we. don't trust ourselves, that we're always. going to make the worst decision. First. of all, it's that attitude of. negativity, right? It's the it's the I. don't want to do it because it's too.

scary because I'm going to be bad. Second of all, it's a decision. And to. think that that decision has no. consequences is naive. We know what the. consequences are. The rate of extinction. today is thousands to tens of thousands. times higher than it is across the foss. across the history of the fossil record. And a lot of that is because of us. But. we have the capacity to slow that rate. We have the capacity to help species. that are alive today adapt to the rapid. changes in their habitat. What if we.

could make Hawaiian honey creepers. resistant to aven malaria, which we. introduced by introducing mosquitoes. into their habitat and save them from. becoming extinct? Or figure out how to. transfer resistance to bleaching to. corals around the world. or um anything. that we could do to save some of these. habitats that we know are in trouble. because of this combination of people. expanding and natural change to the. ecosystem that we just don't like. You. know, we don't want to see spruce forest. disappearing because it's getting drier.

and that means that they can't make. enough resin to fight off the beetles. Right. Right. Yeah. we have the capacity. to use these tools or at least to think. about how we might develop and deploy. these tools to have a future that is. both filled with people and biodiverse. I think what people are concerned with. is the crude application of this. this these techniques and this science. when it's in its infancy. And if you. just take that and draw it out to its.

natural conclusion with improvements. over time and innovation over time, it. could be something that's of an enormous. benefit to not just animal species, but. humans, right, to everyone. What's it's. a it's kind of like a test run. Like. what's we can make a direwolf, can we. make a super person? Like, do you know. what I mean? Like it's probably the. future. Yeah. Yeah, I mean having. regular children like just rolling the. dice on seeing what your kid turns out. will probably be super novel like a 100.

years from now. Yeah, it's a it's an. interesting thing to think about, right? And and I think we're getting gradually. more accustomed to using these. technologies to cure genetic diseases. like the baby that was in the news over. the last couple of weeks, baby KJ, the. this uh boy who was born with a. metabolic disease. He couldn't his had a. genetic change, just a single mutation. that meant that he couldn't digest. protein. And people came together and. mounted this incredible like. collaborative effort to find a cure.

using the tools of genome engineering. for this child. And he went home from. the hospital last week with Crisper. Editing, having gone into his own body. to cure this particular disease. Now, wild. It's it's amazing. And it was such. a it was a rush, you know, and it's a. but it's a it's a really great example. of personalized medicine that right now. obviously this is slow, but we start. somewhere and we always have to start. somewhere. Yes, it took six months and. it's one baby and it took a lot of. people to do this. But this is the.

beginning of how we can use these tools. to cure your cancer to figure out how we. can engineer a a fix for a baby who's. born with cystic fibrosis or if you get. blood cancer, can we edit the blood. cells to make sure make that cancer. mutation just go away? This is the. beginning of these tools and and for. deextinction and conservation. This is. also just the beginning. You know, we've. figured out how to learn DNA sequences. from the past and actually transform. that into an animal that has that's.

bigger than a greywolf and it's more. muscular than a greywolf. We've we've. made direwolves using direwolf DNA and. these amazing tools that we will have. the potential to use to stop other. species from becoming extinct. I love. it. I think it is obviously there are. risks associated with using technologies. that we don't fully understand but we're. not taking those risks. We're very. carefully evaluating every single one of. the edits that we make. We are in every.

case interested in making the fewest. number of changes possible to still. bring those animals back. What other animals are you going to. bring back? Well, what's the plan? What's the plan, Beth? Well, we have announced obviously the. the mammoth and the thyloine. That's the. Tasmanian tiger and the dodo, which is. my favorite. I've seen my dodo. Oh, that's cool. Um, but we have DNA from from lots of. different animals, so you know, you.

never know. So, but is there like a So, you've announced the woolly mammoth. That's right. And where will that be? Where are we going to put mammoth? Are. you going to reintroduce them area into. areas eventually? That is the goal to. have animals that live in wild habitats, but this will be a very long process. Direwolves? No, we won't be. reintroducing direwolves. Okay. So, not. predators, but you would consider Well, not direwolves. Oh, so you weren't. joking about the cheetah? Well, I mean,

we we don't currently have any plans to. to bring cheetahs or or saber-tooth cats. back to life, but you might. I don't. like how you said that, but if you did. that, like that would be where it would. get sketchy. If you reintroduce an. animal that can run 60 miles an hour to. the planes, those poor antelopes who. have been like living it up because they. evolved, you you know that prongghorn. analopes, the reason why they're so. fast, they evolved to get away from. these cheetahs that don't exist anymore. Yeah, it's true. But we know also from. looking at the the the cheetahs that we.

have that they didn't only eat pong. horns, they were eating lots of things. in their habitat. them. We found because. pong horns are fast. They had to eat. something else otherwise they would die, right? They had to eat some slow stuff. because the pong horns are like, "Let's. get out of here." Yeah. I mean, for. every species, there will be different. work that has to be done to figure out. whether and where is a good idea to. reintroduce them. For each of the. species that we're working with, we have. councils that we've put together in the. part of the world where we would bring. them back together to to have. conversations about where they should.

go, whether they should go, how many. there should be, and and who is willing. to be the long-term stewards for these. animals. Now, I know that they've talked. about releasing woolly mammoths if they. ever do make them in Siberia, right? Well, right now we're not focusing on. Russia because issues obviously, right? Um, so probably it would be somewhere in. North America. Maybe that's why Trump. wants Greenland for mammoths. Pick a good place filled with ice. I. mean, mammoths really need a lot of. vegetation. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think.

maybe maybe not. Yeah, that's right. But, you know, there's plenty of space. in Alaska, right? Or or northern Canada. or even around the plains. I mean, mammoths lived through warm periods and. cold periods. Obviously, they're cold. adapted because they're big and furry. Alaska would be the move, right? because. it's it's like the size of onethird of. the United States and they lived there, right? And you know, right? And I I'm. not worried about the mammoth population. getting out of control. I mean, these. are animals that take 10 to 14 years to.

reach reproductive maturity. They have a. 2-year pregnancy. It's it's not like. they're suddenly going to be a thousand. mammoths, right? This will be a very. slow and deliberate and careful process. And like with the direwolves, there will. be a stage in between the first calf. being born and understanding how they're. able to thrive in whatever habitat. they're in. And these are really. important parts of the deextinction. process. I was blown away when I heard. that mammoths lived up till about 4,000. years ago on an island. Yes. Wrangle.

Island off the coast of Siberia, but now. maybe even maybe even in mainland North. America based on that environmental DNA. data. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. The horses for 4,000. years, right? in that day and mammoth. that was 4,000 years old, too. Wow. Right. Because we're not going to find. the last fossils of something, right? Of. course, because fossils are so difficult. to make. Most of the things don't leave. fossils when they die. That's right. Like what percentage of the entire. fossil record, bad pun, bad word to use.

there, but in record of animals have. been fossilized. It's really hard to. know, right? It's and because the. taffonomy which means like how things. are going to preserve differs so much. depending on where you are in the world. like when things die in Alaska and you. have this glacial silt that preserves. things really quickly. We're probably. finding a lot of things, right? But. we've never found woolly rhinos in North. America. So the hypothesis is they never. made it across the bearing the there was. a you know when the sea level was lower.

the bearing straight was not a sea. level. Everyone said it was they called. bingia. It was a land bridge. Animals. walked across that land bridge, including people walked across the land. bridge to come into North, which brings. me to the shortfaced bear. Oh, I don't like how you giggled. Are. you guys going to try to bring that. thing back? I don't know. We do have its. DNA. Oh my goodness. I love the. shortfaced bear. You know what I like. the most about it is because I think. it's so dumb that it's called the. shortfaced bear. Like, why? Who was who.

was giving it that common name? and. they're like, "Oh, here's a bear that if. it stands up, it's 12 feet tall. I'm. going to call it the short-faced bear.". Right. It's such an innocuous name for. such a terrifying animal. Yeah. One of. my favorite photos on the internet is a. photo of the short-faced bear standing. up next to these scientists that are. standing there and you realize the size. of it, you're like, "That one." Yeah. Like, what in the hell? Have you seen. the Longhorned bison? This bison that. lived um 120 150,000 years ago? I think.

I have. This is There's a great photo. that's somewhere on the internet of one. of a skull on the ground and a scientist. like laying that one. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, that's crazy. We have DNA from. him. He might bring that back. Yeah, wouldn't that be cool? What about the. the Irish elk? Yep, we could do that. one. We have DNA from the megalos. When. did that thing go extinct? I think. that's also the end of the ice age. It. wasn't in North America, but Right. Yeah. Super cool. That thing's nuts. It's like a moose/ elk. I love it.

looking thing. There were also camels in. North America. There's a camel called. Camelops. That was pretty cool. Yeah. And a giant beaver, like a five foot. tall beaver, which Oh, that's right. I. forgot about the giant beaver. Beavers. scare me. Especially a five foot beaver. A five foot beaver. Think about what a. little beaver could do with its teeth. People have found logs that have been. chewed on by this thing. Like just Yeah. Just imagine. What did that die out in. the ice age as well? Yeah. So that's. like 65% of all the megapona in North.

America, right? So many big things. We. lost so many big things. Thomas. Jefferson thought he had discovered a. giant lion, but it was a sloth. Yeah. Giant sloth. Different species of giant. named after him. Megalonx Jefferson. Wow. Well, when you look at its face, it. kind of looks like it could be a cat if. you don't know that much. Like if you. don't know what we know now from the. fossil bones that bone right there, make. that the head. Like look at that thing. That looks like some crazy cat. Oh, what.

a weird animal. Sloths. I wonder if they. moved as slowly as the small ones did. I. I can't imagine that they could have or. they would have been really easily eaten. by the giant shortfaced bear. Right. Right. Maybe that's why or the American. cheetah or the smileon. The cheetah is probably too little. You. know, it would get smashed. Yeah. But if. that thing was moving super slowly, you. could just hack at it for a while. Well, have you ever seen sloths, even little. slowmoving ones, swing at leopards or. jaguars, rather? Yeah, there's a video. of a a sloth, a regular one that is uh.

crawling on this vine, and this jaguar. is trying to get at it, and it's it's. swinging at it pretty fast. I was like, "Wow, I didn't know they could swing. that fast." But it moves really slow, which is like, I wonder if it Why does. nature want you to die so easy? Don't. they move so slowly that stuff grows on. them? Yes. mold grows on them. There's a. a rescue place. So this See, look at. that. Look how beautiful those jaguars. are. God, they're so beautiful. Big cats. Yeah. So, would you want the.

big cats that were here to come back? Well, I mean, I don't know. It's like. the jaguars are reemerging in the. southwest, right? They've they've. spotted at least a couple of them in. Arizona, which I think is great. I mean, I think they're awesome, but I wouldn't. want to run into one, you know? I mean, like if you're out there camping and you. see a jaguar, you're in a lot of. trouble. That's a giant mountain lion. But and I think about mountain lions, too. When I go running, you know, in the. in the woods, in the redwoods, I live in.

Santa Cruz. I go running and I'm. thinking, "Oh, mountain lions. Bring my. dog, right?" Yeah. Well, the dogs going. to get eaten, I guess. I think they're. afraid of dogs. I've a little bit. Yeah, it depends on the dog. They eat a lot of. dogs. I have a 75 pound Labrador. retriever. He would probably want to be. it friend. Yeah, that's like my dog, my. golden retriever. He friend, can we. play? Or he would just like tuck his. tail and run and just leave me there to. defend myself. But you know, they know. that like the ones that they get the the.

ones that are problem cats in Northern. California when they found them and they. do these depradation tags, they found. that 50% of their diet is dogs and cats. Wow. 50%. That's nuts. Yeah, that's. nuts. They're just eating people's dogs. and cats. Yikes. Yeah. I don't know. They're spooky. They're cool, but. they're spooky, you know. I don't know. how many you want around. And there are. a lot of cats. Maybe it's because we. don't have any of the other predators. that used to be there. I mean, the. California golden bear. There's another. one that Hurst I think Hurst collected.

One of the last ones of the California. Golden Bear in Southern California had. him shipped up to San Francisco and he. became the bear that's the inspiration. for the flag. Oh, really? His name is. Monarch. We actually sequenced his. genome, too. The last guy that got. killed by a grizzly bear in or a brown. bear, whatever it was in California. They have a town named after him. Lbeck, California. It's named after the guy. Yeah. Named after the last guy to get. killed by a bear. I wonder if it's worth. it to his him. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

It's kind of funny though that the bear. is on the flag and then they killed all. of them. There's none of them. Yeah. Well, by the time I think it was on the. flag, it was already on their way out. Yeah, probably. Well, people are. probably wanting to bring them back, too. You know, you know that we showed. recently using DNA that they're really. closely related to the bears that are in. Yellowstone right now. So, if you really. want bears in California, you can just. bring those guys over. Don't do it, people. Is Mont because the thing about. it is once you have them in your area, you can't manage them because then.

people have decided that they're. precious. So once they become problems. and once they become overpop populated. like Montana has a bit of an issue with. that now they would like to list them so. people Yes. with grizzly bears. They. would like people to be able to hunt. them. Monarch they put a smile on his. face. Oh hi guys. Only you can prevent. forest fires. He looks had a miserable. life though. He was mostly in a cage. He. was being fed the wrong diet for a brown. bear. Just mostly meat. And yeah. So. right now he's on he's on display. He's.

not on display actually. He is in the. basement in a fridge at the Cal Academy. of Sciences in San Francisco. Um, but. his postcranial skeleton, everything. except his head is at Berkeley in the. museum. We've we've sampled it for DNA. So, his diet should have been fruit and. vegetables and meat. But they were just. giving him meat. I imagine he was just. really uncomfortable all the time. Really? You imagine if you just ate only. meat? That's all I eat. I mostly just. eat meat. I'm not uncomfortable at all. I think meat is need a little bit of.

fiber to help your digestion. But I bet. if you had like a plate Well, actually. not true. I was saying if you had a. plate of meat and a plate of fruit, the. bear would just eat the the meat. But. the bear would probably eat the fruit, too. Eat everything. They they eat cars. I mean, when I lived in Colorado, just. like people, not us, would have been. like they're involved in in the world of. scarcity where you eat the stuff that's. in front of you. Also, they really have. to get fat because they're going to. chill out and just take naps for 3. months. I love the fat bear week. competition. I love that. Do you know. that? No. What is that? It's like it's.

it's around the time when they come out, they're they're eating all the salmon. because they got to get suit and they. have a competition between which is the. best fat bear and you get to vote for. them and then there's a fat bear that. wins. Yeah, that's good fun. I love it. To me, that's the most fascinating um. species of bears is the bears that live. on those salmon rivers because they. don't care about people at all. Like. there's this crazy video of this guy. that's sitting in a lawn chair and this. bear comes up beside him and this bear. where the he's not in the lawn chair, right? He's beside the lawn chair, but. the lawn chair is great for perspective. when you see how big the bear is. This.

bear is huge. It's like 10 11 feet tall, long, whatever. And it it doesn't care. about the person at all. It just has. been eating salmon. So this is it. Look. at this. And salmon are so much better. Look at the size of that thing. Imagine. Give me some volume so you hear this guy. talking because it's so crazy. Yeah. Bear's not interested in them. There's. meat right to his right. He just lays. down. I'm going chill. Humans probably.

make a terrible snack though, right? I. mean, we're bony. We're or fatty. That. salmon is absolutely delicious source of. protein, right? Also, it's, you know, just flopping around in there. It's easy. to catch and he's probably full, which. is also why they're so big, right? He. looks full. He's I like him. He looks. chill. That's the bear that I would want. to run into in the field. He's talking. to him. Hey, hey, hey. That's a crazy. like it's a dog. Like, hey, get out of. here. You going to convince them, hey,

man, this is my space. Don't invade it. Yeah, they just they all those Kodiak. bears, they're that's why they're so. huge. They get so much protein. Never. been out there. Oh, I want to watch. them. I want to watch them eat the. salmon. Yeah. With a high-powered rifle. right next to me. And maybe in a giant bulletproof hamster. wheel or something. I don't I'm so. scared of those things. Have you seen. the documentary Grizzly Man? Yes. Another great Warner Herszog film. Okay. I I have to look at the Wernern is. actually in that film. You know, he's.

interviewing the people in that film, which is that it's one of the best. unintentional comedies. It's a really. funny movie. I think I think I don't. even think it's unintentional because. Warner Herszog's a genius. I think he. made it funny on purpose cuz there's. some like smash cuts where he just like. oh my god we just laughing and the guy. was so nuts and he just decided to I. think in my eyes I think it was like. suicide by bear. I think he just decided. to stay long enough where eventually. they just got him. He was like super. depressed and oh my god wanted to be an. actor and it never made it. So he. decided he was going to save the bears.

and the bears like didn't even care that. he was alive. Like they're not used to. people being around at all. They didn't. even know what he was and then one of. them eventually decided to eat him. I. can't imagine that is a good way to go, but it's not a good way to go. But if. you're completely obsessed with bears. and you you know, yeah, there's a woman. who's worked in my lab for a long time. She works on mountain lions or mountain. lion genetics and she said when it's her. time, she wants to go. Oh god, lady, don't say that. Don't say that. The one. thing better about getting killed by a. cat than a bear is a cat will kill you.

and then eat you. A bear will just hold. you down and eat you while you're still. alive. Yeah. They don't care at all. You. die of shock. before and after photos of. these founders before they got fat. Like. that one was wildly skinny, like a dog. almost. Yeah. Well, they look real weird. when they get skinny and they look real. longlegged. That's one of the things. that freaks hunters out um is when they. see them skinned and they're hanging, they look like humans. It's like very. weird. Bigfoot? No. Well, that's.

probably what Bigfoot is, honestly. When. people are seeing Bigfoot, have you ever. seen a bear walk on two legs before? No, they walk on two legs all the time. All. the time. They walk on two legs to. present themselves as larger, to scare. the other males. And sometimes they have. injuries. Like there was a famous bear. in New Jersey that was missing a paw. And so he always walked on two legs and. it just looked like a man like a man. like a Bigfoot. Like if you see him. through the woods, right? If it's dusk. and you're going on a hike and you're.

already like heightened senses, you're a. little weirded out already and you see. this thing. It's a black bear that's. walking on two legs through the woods. like you would be convinced that you saw. Bigfoot, don't you think? Yeah. There. was a paper that was published maybe a. decade ago or so where people had done. niche modeling, environmental niche. modeling based onoot sightings. Isn't. that crazy? Oh my goodness. Yeah. Isn't. that nuts? So, if you saw that walking. through the woods, 100% you'd think it's. Bigfoot. Oh my god, I found him. He's. real. He's real. If that picture was.

just a little bit blurriier, it would be. Bigfoot, right? Yeah. A little blurrier. and then a little more distance and in. between trees. Yeah. I talked to a lady. once. We did this uh television show. My. friend, that's amazing. I know. It's. nuts. And that's a small one. We did. this uh television show a long time ago. Me and my friend Duncan. We went to go. look for Bigfoot. It was part of the. show. It was called Joe Rogan Questions. Everything. And we went to and I met. this one lady who was so convincing and. she told me she saw Bigfoot. She and the.

Pacific Northwest where we were at. outside of Seattle like up in those. mountains, it's so dense cuz it's a. rainforest and it's like the the way I. describe it, it's like a box of Q-tips. That's what the trees are like. You. know, you get a box of Q-tips, you can't. see in between those Q-tips. Super. dense. Super dense. And she said she saw. something that was like a hundred yards. away that was moving through the trees. that she is sure was a She goes, "I saw. a giant ape." And I was like, "What is. that? An ape?" I'm like, "Oh my god, it's Bigfoot." And my brain was going,

"I think it was a bear.". Well, that's what this niche niche. modeling or environmental modeling study. found is they looked at all the reported. sightings of Bigfoot and then created. what would be the environmental niche. for a Bigfoot and it pretty much just. overlapped the niche for for bears for. brown. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's the. only thing that makes sense. But what. the the weird thing about it is the. Native Americans because Native. Americans have a name for that creature. and they have many names for it in. different tribes. So, it's not like an. isolated thing, but they don't have a.

lot of mythical animals. They don't have. fake animals other than Sasquatch. It's. weird. It It is weird because if Binga, is that what it's called? The Bearing. Land Bridge. Bingia. Bingia. Bingia. existed and we know that it did. And we. know that people during that time made. their way across. If Gigantopithecus. lived alongside people, we don't know if. it did, but it could have. And if it. did, it would be in the same area. It. would be in the same area of Asia. And. perhaps it would have to come really far. north though to get across the Bearing.

Land Bridge cuz that was really far that. was all glaciated and cold. So it would. have to be something that was adapted to. living in warmer climates like where it. was found as well as being able to. survive. It's not like a week of a walk. across the land bridge. Right. Also, we. don't find primates in cold climates. like that, right? Other than humans, right? Yeah. You have to have the. ability to keep yourself warm. We're. like, let's just keep walking north. We. got to get away from these other. [ __ ] Yeah. Really love mosquitoes. I I think this is what I'm going for. Like the more mosquitoes the better. I. think they're probably just chasing.

animals, right? Yeah, that's probably. what they were doing. Mostly following. the herds and then eventually they had. to learn to adapt to these colder. climates. Yeah, it's funny. We talk. about it as like people are are moving. deliberately through this landscape when. clearly they weren't. You know, they're. just they're just trying to find food. like the Doggon people. They're they're. going to places where there's still. grass that their reindeer can graze on. Yeah. They just want to eat. And it's. just so weird to think that, you know, we live in houses and we have internet. and we, you know, you drive an electric.

car to work and oh, living in this. sophisticated world, but not all the. people are living in this world. And. there's indigenous people that are. living the same way they've lived for, but that now they have a snowmobile, now. they have a rifle, right? But they're. still if you had to live there, you'd be. like, "Oh my god, like what am I doing? Like where is Starbucks?" Right? like. but somehow they're happier than us. That's so weird. It's really weird. Um, out of all the animals that you guys.

might potentially uh what's the word. rebirth? What's the word? Oh, I mean, people have used the word de-extinction, which I kind of hate because I can't. figure out how to conjugate it in a way. that doesn't make me cringe. If you've. done it successfully, do you say you. deextincted. something? So, what would be the word? Do we need a new word? because it's. never happened before. Bring back. Resurrect. Resurrect. I think. resurrect's probably but that has. biblical, right? So that's why we try to. stay away from that. But you're kind of. playing God, so let's go with that.

Okay, cool. I'm in. Um, is there one. that gives you pause? Like maybe the. shortfaced bear pause. Like maybe like. maybe this isn't the best idea. The host. eagle. Well, humans. I've already had. paws at this. Like Neanderls and Denise, they were people. And so I feel like. that's not really a thing that that's. not somewhere we should go. Host eagle. That's a cool one. That's a cool one. That's a really This was a massive. massive giant eagle that ate moa which. was a bird an extinct bird. People too.

Probably they were. No. They think that. they found these markings on human. skulls there that indicate talons of. raptors. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Right. Which. makes sense that that's how they went. extinct. Like the New Zealand are like. enough of this [ __ ] Yeah. Well, the moa. went extinct and so they couldn't eat. moa anymore. But maybe it was both, right? I mean, why did shortfaced bears. go extinct? Probably because nobody. wanted a bear that stood 12 feet high. That was cool about it, though. Like, imagine kill it. Could you imagine the.

daunting task of getting a group of guys. together with spears to go after a. shortfaced bear when you know at least. four or five of you are getting whacked. before you can get a spear tip into one? Maybe. Doesn't it depend? I mean, maybe. what they were doing is, you know, how. they would ambush mammoths and things. like that. So, you hide around bluffs. and you can have a group of people in. different places and hit them all at. once. Maybe you wait until that bear is. eating something else, right? Oh, sure. And then it's paused and you have time. to I mean, how much did they even.

understand the wind back then? Like they. probably understood it really well, right? Because these are people who. relied on that. They probably understand. it better than people who aren't hunters. today, right? So they probably knew that. these animals had a greater sense of. smell than we do. They probably had a. greater sense of smell than we do or. more attuned. Yes. Oh yeah, for sure. They probably could smell it because you. can smell certain animals when you're. like you if you go into the elk woods, you 100% can smell elk. And is that. something that you've been able to. develop? Well, I was taught it, you.

know. Um I I would smell something and. then you know like the guys that I'd be. hunting with like you smell that like. that's that's elk cuz you could because. they urinate everywhere and you know you. get this sense they they have like this. really musty smell during the rut too. and you could smell them. Could you. smell the direwolves? Well they they. were stinky. I don't think you guys are. bathing them. Why would we bathe a. direwolf? I know. My wife would be like, "Take him to the groomer. because she hates when my dog gets. stinky. She hates when I like take him.

out into the the dirt and play around. with them and he comes back covered in. burrs and stinky. You got to brush them. down." Do they smell different? Yeah. Yeah, they did smell different. But I I. don't smell a lot of dogs that are never. bathed. Right. You know, most of the. dogs that I've ever smelled These aren't. dogs. Yeah. Right. Wolves, right? Right. Sorry. Which is what is really which is. really weird. That was the other. conversation that we had that they all. come from wolves. Like even a French. Jamie has a French bulldog. He's. adorable. That was a wolf at one point.

in time. And we don't know which wolf. Right. Right. I mean, this is I think. dog domestication is one of those places. where both we come to terms with what we. don't know and the opportunity to. discover new things. You know, the very. first scientific paper that said when. dogs were domesticated looked at um a. type of DNA that's only inherited from. your mom called mitochondrial DNA. Our. cells have a nucleus that has the DNA. and our chromosomes that make us look. and act the way we do. And then it has. little cells that were once bacteria.

that we co-opted that make energy. And. you only inherit them from your mom and. there's a ton of them. Like there's. thousands of mitochondrial genomes in. every cell and only one of your nuclear. genome. So in ancient DNA, because. there's way more, we started just with. that. It was the only thing we could. recover. And the first dog mitochondrial. genomes that were recovered, people were. like dogs were domesticated in Asia. 150,000 years ago, which is clearly. wrong, right? The there weren't human. populations, societies, which is kind of. what you need for dog domestication.

because they're attracted to the garbage. or the living around where people were. So you need communities of people that. are staying in place together for some. time before you can have dog. domestication. Do we know for sure there. weren't human populations like that. 150,000 years ago? We don't. But we do. know now that dogs probably aren't that. old, right? I think what I read was 36. I think it changes all the time, which. is because we don't know everything. And. also probably because the first dogs. were in warm parts of the world and so. we we don't have the fossils. We don't.

have the the the DNA and that the. fossils just didn't preserve. I think. right now what people are happiest with. is that it was probably sometime after. the the peak of the last ice age, sometime 15 to 20,000 years ago. And um. not sure where because again probably in. a a warmer spot. There's been lots of. gene flow, lots of hybridization between. domestic dogs and wolves that have made. this a really hard problem. Like you. were talking about with the black. wolves, right? Exactly like that. But. what's cool about this date 15 to 20,000.

years ago is that most these people are. like, "Yeah, that's probably the date. for dogs." Which means if dogs only form. when there are human like communities. that are together, groups of people that. are living together in the same place. for a long time, that they were around. 15 to 20,000 years ago. That is not what. archaeologists think. Right. So these. two these two weights of evidence are. saying, you know, we still don't know, right? Sort of, right? But they do. believe hunter gatherers existed in. small tribes 15,000 years ago. And maybe.

that was enough. But you know, if you. think of domestication and scientists. like to have names, we like to have ways. of classifying things. And so there was. recently sort of a friend a couple of. friends of mine have published a paper. which they've redefined how you consider. something domestic. And they say a. domestic population is something that. can only survive within a human. environment within a human niche. And if. you think of that as what our dogs are, right? they can only really survive and. breed as dogs within this human niche. Then you need a lot of humans around and.

you need a sort of steady stream of the. crap that humans produce to do this. That's still kind of early. Like it's. still Yeah. Maybe there were. huntergatherer populations that were. more of, you know, established somewhere. in the south where we don't have dog. bones. Right. Right. That's we don't. know. Right. It's But and then wolves don't Are most. wolves from warmer climates? No. Right. They're from colder climates, aren't. they? All over the place. All over the. place. Well, Mexican wolves, right?

There's Mexican wolves. Mexican wolves. that there's um but we think that the. closest living relative of dogs is is. greywolves. It's this greywolf lydant. But we don't know if dogs are outside of. the diversity of greywolves. So, it's an. extinct type of greywolf that was the. predator of dogs. or if they fall within. the diversity of all the lineages of. greywolves that are around. And that's. just because there's been so much. movement of DNA around that part of the. tree. It's it's a I think it's a. fascinating story that as we get more.

information, we're going to learn more. about people as well. And I just I love. that. Well, dogs are the most. fascinating to me because it's such it's. so obvious that there's manipulation. involved. It's so obvious that through. selective breeding and and also getting. these animals to get accustomed to. people getting close to the fire, feeding them so they don't have to hunt. anymore and then they bark when. intruders come and you know we develop. this sort of relationship where we work. together that it's it's so interesting. that they we see the genes change into a.

poodle. We see this weirdness or now. it's a border collie like what? And then. the those too are probably Victorian, right? the all of the breeds that we. think of today, whether it's cattle or. bison, they're, you know, within the. last couple hundred years. That is. really fast selection by humans. So, we. are manipulating the DNA of the species. that we surround ourselves with. And we. have been for 15 to 20,000 years and. probably longer. Just not in a.

laboratory. Just not in a laboratory. But, you know, is our backyard a. laboratory? If I say, I like the way. that dog looks, but I like the way that. that one can swim in water. And I bet if. I breed them together, I can make one. that has this double layer coat so they. can go get in that frozen water, but. they'll still have that like cute look. or something. That's interesting, right? Because we're we're thinking about. science as only being done in a. laboratory. or manipulation only being done in a. laboratory. It was clearly done with. food. I mean, it was done with plants. forever, right? Selective breeding of.

plants, splicing two plants together, right? I mean when we graft plants. together, I mean that is like all of the. the vineyards in in France which are. grafted onto American rootstocks because. of the introduction of fuoxera, this. aphid that came from North America that. was going to completely devastate the. the wine industry. Now they're all. spliced onto American rootstocks that. can survive this aphid. And ain't that. wild? Yeah. I talked to a rancher in. California and they were telling me that. I think it was either the avocado trees.

were spliced onto the pistachio trees or. vice versa. It's amazing that the plants. can survive that that they don't go. like, "Yo, that's not me." Like, we. can't do that. We can't take a a pig. liver and shove it in your Yeah. Your. body would fight it off. Your immune. system would fight it off. Well, we're. trying. Again, that's another cool thing. that we can do with this gene editing. technology is there are we can turn off. the genes that would cause that. rejection to happen. So maybe someday we. can use pig organs in place of humans. and save save people from dying or we.

can just re-engineer a new version of. your organs. Yeah. So that is really. cool science. This thing called. organoids where you can actually grow in. a dish in a lab a version of a little. brain. something that approximates a. brain or that approximates a heart or a. kidney or or something else. We're using. this at Colossal, for example, to test. hypotheses about what changes we might. make to bring about to resurrect to. deextinct the phenotypes that we're. interested in. If we grow an organoid.

that grows hair, can we see what that. hair looks like without having to make a. mammoth in order to see what that change. is going to do? But it has really. amazing potential for personalized. medicine. So, I can take some of your. cells, if you get a tumor, I can grow. them in this dish, and I can challenge. those cells with different drug. cocktails to see what works before I put. them in you. Now, this is this. technology is so cool and really just. beginning. Well, it is it's amazing when. you think about this technology and you. think about what we had just a few.

hundred years ago and then you push a. few hundred years from now and you think. what are the possibilities and the only. way to find out is to do experiments. like what you guys are doing. And so. that's one of the reasons why some of. this push back is so silly. Like would. you rather no one ever do this work or. would you like to be the one who does. the work or is it just that you think. the work should never be done like what. is the thought process again is I think. it's this negativity and it's this.

scarcity mindset that if if they do this. then we can't do this which is just it's. not it's not the way we innovate it's. not the way we make progress but is just. be is this the nature of academia where. you know because it's very gatekeeped. even inside of academia, right? You you. work for a university and you have to. get the approval of all the other people. and you have to be politically aligned. with them and everyone has to say the. right things on Twitter. You know, it's. like there's a lot of like weirdness, a. lot of group think that comes along with.

all that stuff. And then you have to. play politics in order to get funding. You know, you can't be ostracized. If. you're ostracized, even if you have. tenure, you know, when you you see this. with certain scientists that have very. outside the box ideas, they get pushed. out and they can't get funding anymore. Or if they don't agree with a certain. narrative, what's being pushed with. whether it's public health or the. environment or anything, they get just. they get ostracized even if they're. actually talking about real data and. science. Yeah, I think you know, we can.

agree that it's it's a mess, right? It's. a hot mess. But there is genuine real. science that comes out of the university. system of the academic system that we. need. You know, all the technology that. led to MRIs, the early technology that. gave us crisper, this gene editing. platform was developed using, you know, funding from the government in. scientific labs by people who are. willing to take risks and step outside. of that box. And then it's taken outside. of there and turned into all of these. cool things. I mean, there has to be a.

place where we get both of these things. because there's some things that no one. is ever going to build a business around. until it exists. And we need this, you. know, public system in order to do that. Yeah. And that's what's so scary about. what's going on with with politics and. funding and and research, you know? It's. because it's like if as soon as you stop. defunding research, you start making it. more scarce and then making people it's. just going to get worse. It's going to. get harder. And we're going to fall. behind and we are going to lose the.

place that we have had as innovators. And by we, I mean this country. We are. going to lose the place we have has had. innovators in biotechnology, innovators. in physics, innovators in all of these. technologies because we've had such a. robust system. It's a balance. You know, we clearly need both of these things. And right now it's broken. And there's. there's a lot of weirdness that's going. on with with biology in general in the. world right now. And one of them is I. think there was a third scientist that.

was arrested uh for trying to bring in. toxic mold from China. We know that this. one scientist was arrested and then I. think there's been two more. So they're. trying to introduce this toxic mold into. our food supply. The same toxic mold. I. think I think so. It might have been a. different one, but I know it's also it's. the same kind of thing. See if you can. find it, Jamie. When I heard this the f. the first time, and I've only heard. about the first one, my my first thought. was, you know, is this is this.

deliberate or is this super naive on the. part from China, which scares the [ __ ]. out of me because if China wanted to. [ __ ] America's food supply, there'd. be a great way to compromise basically. everything. There is a country that is. investing in science. Oh my god. Yeah. Just their drone technologies off the. charts. I was watching a documentary. yesterday on the autonomous production. of coal. And so they have these coal. mines now that are done entirely with. electric trucks and everything's done. with AI and humans aren't involved at.

all. So these trucks go, they dig, they. mine, they fill the trucks, they bring. the coal back, and then when they're low. on batteries, they charge themselves. Oh. my gosh. Yeah. And they're running 24. hours a day around the clock. Yeah. And. we don't have anything like that. No, we're not even close to doing that. And. we're fighting about the amount of money. that we should invest into very basic. infrastructure. Exactly. It's It's. terrifying. It is terrifying. It's. terrifying because we always hope that.

with every administration there will be. positive changes and it just never seems. to be the case. It's just like more and. more of the same and more. short-sightedness. Like is it also this. scarcity mindset like I can't agree with. this person because they once said this. thing? I mean, we why why can't we have. just a a normal conversation like you. and I are having right now? Well, I. think it's because it's kind of. engineered into our social media. structure that human beings are going to. fight with each other. The algorithm.

favors you looking and and interacting. with things that upset you. You know, this is just natural human nature. If. you look at like some of the people that. we were talking about earlier, negative. scientists, you see them online. They're. tweeting negative things like all day. long. Like and it's probably because. they don't have any funding. So they. can't actually do any science. Chinese. scientist was arrested while arriving in. the US at Detroit airport. A second case. in days involving the alleged smuggling. of biological material. But is it the. same biological? No, different stuff. What is this stuff? So this was worms.

Worms described as worms. Certain worms. require a government permit. Um I had. heard that there was a third one and. this is the third. This is the third. So. there's a second one and this one. happened. Oh, second case in days. I. will say they were going to the same. place. Oh boy. University of Michigan. Another Chinese scientist also going to. the University of Michigan. Boy, it's. also really crazy because the thing. about China and their scientists that. come over to America is they all have to.

check in with the CCP. Like if you are a. Chinese scientist and you're from China. and you you're working in America, you. got to check in. Which means like how. much of this research is just getting. shared with China and it's all weird and. we're focused on something else. We're. focused on Yeah. They play a very long. game and I think their game involves. raptors and T-Rexes. They're going to. release all the stuff that you won't. I've seen that movie. I wonder like I worry about that like. your information the stuff that you guys.

are working on if that stuff can be. compromised if someone can get a hold of. it and then they start doing that stuff. over there. The thing is the foundation. for what we're doing all of the stuff. from sequencing ancient DNA to gene. editing technologies to learning how do. we link certain DNA sequence changes to. the way something looks. This stuff is. all out there anyway, right? Like. crisper technology exists. We're not. working on humans, but other companies. are openly, right? It's not like there's. Well, you know, the story from China. where the one doctor got in trouble and.

wind up going to jail because they had. supposedly inoculated these babies from. HIV, but they in fact were making them. more intelligent. I I think maybe that. was two separate stories because I know. the story about Jang, that's hu Jang was. the name of that scientist and he went. to jail for three years. He actually did. some training in the US. His his name is. H. He but he he um was trying to make. trying to use gene editing tools to to. to.

make these babies have a particular. mutation that we know is protective. against HIV. It's the one that stops the. HIV from entering the the cells where it. then kills the cells. And I think this. was a story that was broken by a guy at. MIT Tech Review a couple of days before. it was announced. He thought that he was. going to be able to announce this to. great fanfare in front of a community. that was going to celebrate him for. having done this. And the story broke a. few days early, but he had set this up a. whole PR thing. He had um like YouTube.

videos that were ready to go to explain. what he had done. He wasn't trying to do. it in secret. He thought he was going to. be a hero, right? But but people were. like, "Holy [ __ ] dude. What the fuck?". Like, "No, we're not editing human germ. lines, the cells that will be passed on. to the next generation. There's still a. moratorium against doing that work. The. baby that was just born, for example, they didn't edit any of his cells that. would get passed on to the next. generation. It's only the cells in his. body. So those edits will only ever live. in him, right? And there's a difference.

between doing that and it's the second. one that we're uncomfortable with. I. thought they were editing it to make the. ch the children have a potential for. higher intelligence. I think that's I. think that's a maybe an unintended. consequence of the gene that they were. editing because in mice it did something. like that and so I think they just. assume they're going to be smarter but I. don't think that they're old enough to. even test that yet. Interesting. Maybe. but if they knew that but it wasn't it. didn't end up even being the right. because is HIV a real issue today? It's.

not really. So the reason that this that. he got whatever ethical permission he. did in China to do this is because they. were children that were born by um IVF. because the dad had AIDS. Oh, and so. what they were trying to do was create. what he claimed he was trying to do was. create an environment where they would. never accidentally get it. I guess if. there's blood and it also makes them. smarter. I don't know if they knew that. at the time but I mean they did. China's. played a long game. It definitely. affected their brains is what they just. keep saying sort of in this article.

Yeah, but they don't they don't know. because they haven't been able to. measure anything with these. I mean, they're guessing that would have. affected their brains at this point. These scientists when they're the. leaders of the world in 20 years, we'll. know. We'll know for sure. We'll know. Yeah. Yeah. This is I mean what makes us. smart has been a a a thing that people. have been trying to solve for a long. time. And we're always looking for like. the one or two genes that cure that. figure out this. Very few traits are are. encoded by one or two genes. There are. some hair traits. Whether your earlobes. are attached or not, that's one gene. that you can It is quite fascinating to.

think that in the future, dumb people. will not exist. I doubt that's true. Why? Maybe relatively dumb compared to. everyone else that's alive then, but. maybe far more intelligent than people. that are alive today. Do you know what's. interesting about the efforts that have. gone on to try to figure out genes that. make people smart, is that they can find. associations between what we're. classifying as smart, and this is hard. Like when you're when you're saying. smart, do you mean somebody who can have. a conversation with another person and.

shut up so that you're actually. listening to other personalities? Do you mean somebody who can solve. shitload of math problems and be a. physicist or whatever and be awkward. socially? Do you mean somebody who's. just really [ __ ] good-looking, right? I mean, what do you mean when you say uh. is this thing? And so you have to define. that first. And then once it's defined, if you look for associations between. genes at high frequency with people who. rank high on whatever your thing is that. you're you're ranking them on, it's. different depending on which you know.

human population you're you're studying. So it's I mean and this makes total. evolutionary sense. Different things. were under selection in different. habitats at different times and that. made different people smarter in. different ways for whatever that was. Yeah, I actually think this is not how. we start editing ourselves because. that's not how evolution works. As soon. as we edit everybody to be smart in that. particular way and to be 5 foot 10 and. blonde with blue eyes and perfect and.

never going to have diabetes, the most. attractive thing out there is going to. be the opposite of that, right? So there will be I just don't think I. people are always thinking about we're. going to get superhumans, but they have. a specific picture in their mind of what. that means. That's not the same picture. that the Chinese government has in mind. It's not the same picture that I have in. mind, right? And and that's that's why I. don't fear it as much, I think, just. because that's not that's not how it's. going to happen. How it will happen is.

there will be some massive pandemic and. we discover that there is a particular. mutation that means you're going to die. and then suddenly this most unethical. thing that is like completely aborant. and you absolutely can't do it will be. the only ethical solution that is how we. get there. Wow. In in my imagination. Wow. Um, well, I would love to have you. back on when you get more information. and more breakthroughs and more stuff. that you really really enjoy. You should.

come to the lab. I know you got to see. I would love to come to the lab. I will. definitely do that. I promise you. I. promise. Thank you so much for being. here. It was really great. I really, really enjoyed it. And your book, Life. as We Made It. Um, how 50,000 years of. human innovation refined and redefined. nature. Beth Shapiro. I think the rest. of my Siberia story is in there, including the part at the end where I. did an audio book. I did. I read the. audio book for that. Yes. Yes. I love. it. I'm so glad you read it. I hate when. other people have to read people's work.

Well, I I asked if I could read it. because my first book, How to Clone a. Mammoth, I didn't read. And I heard the. audio book. And I write in first person. and I tell stories and I try to make it. funny. And I was like, that's not how it. should be read. So, I wrote to them and. I said, "Can I can I read this book?". And they said, "Oh, you're going to have. to audition." And I was like, audition. for your own book. What if I am not good. enough to read my own audio book? Well, you clearly are. You're a great talker. Um, thank you so much. Thank you really. for being here. I I really appreciate.

it. It was really fun. Thank you. All. right. Bye, everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].