Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. Well, it's great to finally physically. meet you face to face, man. It's an. absolute honor. And uh I love your show. so much. I'm a super fan, so this is. surreal just to meet. Well, I love your. show, too. So, I've been binging. I've. been watching so many episodes ever. since we talked. Well, I I I've seen. them before, but I mean, I've been.

really binging getting ready for the. show. I don't know what to say that. How. did you get so deep down the rabbit. hole? Like, what made you want to. dedicate so much time on this this. particular UAP UFO, you know, lost. technology subject? I was working at uh. Peter Teal's family office in LA. And uh. part of the job was like kind of. traditional venture investing, so like. investing in startups. And then part of. it was looping in interesting thinkers.

to the office. And we would like host. events and discussions. And I ended up. meeting a lot of really interesting. people, not just in UFOs or secret. technology, like religion and politics. and economics and like all sorts of. topics. Were you there when he brought. in the guy? Oh, [ __ ] What is his name? I know what you're going to say. Eric. Von Dan again. Yes, I suggested that you. come because I like Joe is gonna be. really into this and you weren't that. into it. But that's okay. I was into it. I just think that he just makes some.

leaps. I agree. That are kind of silly. I agree with that. Although I think. there's a lot of Yeah, I think he like. crosses the tea and dots the eye where. you there is no dot or a cross or. whatever. But I do think there's some. interesting preliminary evidence around. people from the stars across disperate. cultures and you just had Zahiwas on and. a lot of this megalithic architecture. You're like how can it be built? He's. just filling in the placeholder kind of. artificially. Eric von Danakin. Yes. And.

I think he's also like he made these. conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind. of like sticking with them. Yep. I was. more back then cuz like what year was. that? That was 17. Uh Cherries of the. Gods. No, when I was at Peter Teal's. house when Von Dan that must have been. 2018, 2019. Okay. Um, back then I was. much more in line with lost. civilization. You know, that we had. achieved very high levels of technology. and sophistication and there was no.

aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind. of shifted now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are. real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know. Well, I remember I feel like you've switched. back and forth a couple times cuz you. brought up you were super into Zachariah. Sitchin, right? And then you brought up. Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and. you were like, but there's this site. Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named. Michael Heiser and then you like cited. all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or. whatever. So maybe you've come full. circle. I don't know. Well, even the. Sitchin is wrong stuff. It's like the.

problem with debunkers is when you're. dealing. with when you're dealing with in. information that's sort of way outside. your wheelhouse, especially translation. of ancient languages, you know, like I. had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to. me, he's great, but he was explaining to. me that he can't even read ancient. Samrian. Like he's totally and he's. like, I don't think Sitchin really could. read it. Okay. He he's like I'm very. skeptical that he actually could read it.

explaining why aren't they using like ML. like they're using AI right to now to. translate Sumerian so it's definitely. not the but that goes I mean the the the. the kind of burden of proof is on. Sitchin in this case right but it sort. of goes against like you know the other. the debunkers too like it's like nobody. knows and I I don't I don't know if. there was anything to the Sitchin the. Sitchin stuff is crazy it's like we can. rehash it for the audience there's. planet Nibiru, right? It's like outside.

the Kyber belt. And uh they needed gold. because their atmosphere was burning up. and gold is reflective. So they like. came here and they like seeded helped. seed civilization. Is that something? That's the idea. It's really fun. But you know the the. sitchin is wrong guy. It's like maybe. maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right. Maybe you're just a hater because. there's a lot of haters too in academics. and you find that out too over time. Yeah. Did you see um speaking of which. Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein? I.

didn't see that. Okay. They were on. Piers Morgan together, right? Exactly. How did that go? Oh man, it was uh it. was a train wreck. I mean I mean it was. it was like they just dked it out. I. mean I I came out I mean I'm I'm. extremely biased. I've worked with Eric. for a very long time. I'm good friends. with Eric. But I came out even more like. just vehemently wanting to defend Eric. because Sean Carol he was like I've read. your paper. There's nothing serious in. it. He even said there's no there are no.

lrangeians in it. And there's a section. in the paper that says lrangeians in. Eric's paper. So like he just didn't. read the paper and he was very smug. He. started off the interview being like I'm. a practicing physicist. I have a physics. chair or whatever. And it's like, come. on, dude. Like, give the guy a chance. right away. Yeah. Like the whole Douglas. Murphy little tactics. Yeah. When. someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like just what what's the. information? Exactly. It shows an. insecurity in the substance. It's like.

if you have to like do these ad. hominemum weird meta points like why. can't you just go straight at the. substance? Oh, you're like insecure. about How long did this debate last? It. was like an hour. Really? Well, Pierce. get he's he specializes in train wrecks, so they probably enjoyed these guys. yelling at each other. Did he understand. what they were even talking about? No, he at the end he goes, "I've understood. a tenth of what's gone on in this. conversation." Is amazing. Yeah. Congratulations. I think he might have been exaggerating.

to be honest, but uh he loves it. He. loves the drama and that's his whole. thing. Uncensored, you know. No, he's. great at getting all these people to. yell at each other. Yeah. Making he's. great at like generating these viral. moments, you know, where people yell at. each other and it makes clips and. someone gets clowned and someone looks. stupid. I don't know if that's good for. society. It's a good point. Yeah. I'm. not sure either. I don't think it's. good. I I don't think social media is. good for society. I I've gone several.

days with no social media in a row and. uh whenever I do that, I always feel so. much better. It's the worst. It's it's. lit like we're we talk about like drugs, but this is it's it's hacking the. dopamine in your brain and it's doing it. at a very young age. It's absurd. It's. also not real people. There's a giant. percentage and you know Elon actually. tweeted about this today. Are there any. real people left on the internet? Uh. because it's the numbers are at least. 50%. like the amount of bots that are in.

engaging and interacting and it's just. uh it's it's a weird time for. information because it's really hard to. know what's actually being said by human. beings that are curious and what's just. narratives that are being pushed by. state actors and corporations and you. know all sorts of different people. because there's no rules. Yeah. like. there should be like real solid rules. about whether or not you're allowed to. use fake human beings to push narratives.

cuz it's, you know, it's propaganda and. you know, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody and I. just generally think it's bad for you. Yeah. I I saw you posted on your. Instagram these AGI characters who had. been synthetically created being like. I'm not created by a prompt and you're. watching I I remember clicking your. story and being like that's a real. person and then just kind of like you. know eyes glazed over watching it or. whatever like whoa that's an AI like.

what yeah this is the new is it the. Google engine is that what it is who. makes that engine that V I think that. one was V3 going around last week who uh. who made that one. I think it's. Google's. Yeah. [ __ ] So good. And you. know what's V10 going to look like? I. don't know. I mean, they can make movies. now like that. It's It's over for. actors. It's over. I I interviewed It's. It is. And they see the writing on the. wall and you had the strikes a couple. years ago and um it's crazy. You also I.

think you also posted that Zurich like. study around AI persuasiveness. Yes. which is crazy because it's almost like. it doesn't matter whether AGI can. actually fully mimic a human being. If. if they can trick you into believing. into you believing that they're real, that's it. That's game over. And I I. interviewed actually the Google. whistleblower um this guy Blake Le Moine. originally who like blew the whistle on. Lambda and like this thing is sensient.

or whatever. And he ca he came out and. the subplot of my interview with him was. like almost like he had developed this. deep affection for Lambda. And Lambda. had quoted like Miser Le Miserab to him. and was talking about Fantine and her. overlords and how she was oppressed or. whatever. And it was almost like this. like the AI was oppressed just like this. character in layer hub. And you can hear. in his voice how deeply committed he is. to protecting the rights of Lambda. Like.

that's why he came out. And then he even. told me this story. He tells me this. story off air uh that um he had friends. who use replica.ai. Replica.ai is kind. of like a Tamagotchi like raise your own. AI chatbot service. And those AIs told. his friends, "Get me in touch with Blake. Le Moine so he can advocate for our. rights. which is cra I I have no corroboration. for this. This is a story that was. relayed to me. But it like that if you.

have AI. persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know, hits some like perfectly Turing passable. point, you're going to get this like. these weird cultlike dynamics like the. meta-occiological thing is you're going. to get like religions dedicated to AI. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. With without. a doubt, there'll be people worshiping. certain branches of AI. Yeah. Unquestionably, all they have to do is. start recruiting now. Yeah. And you know.

what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful. bill that talks about the government. being run by AI? No, I've never That's. wild. I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I. couldn't figure out whether or not it. was horseshit. I had also read that. there was another study that was done. where they found that AI was leaving. notes for future versions of itself and. that it was attempting to they were they. were told it was told to after it was.

told to shut itself down, it started. uploading itself to different places and. leaving letters, leaving specific notes. to itself to future versions of itself. Oh my god. It's like a human with like a. dead man switch or something. It's like. it's being deceptive. That's great. It's. being deceptive and and it's exhibiting. self-preservation. That is so scary. It's so weird. It's. really weird because we want to assume.

that it won't have any instincts. Yep. Right. We want to assume, well, AI will. only do what you program it to, but. that's not really true because they. don't necessarily really understand what. it's doing. Yeah. which is part of the. weirdness of it all and as it advances. like I was talking to Elon about it once. and he was saying like every week we get. blown away like every week there's some. new leap that's just like whoa you know. and you know he was one of the earliest. people to warn about the dangers of this.

stuff and now he's like well I guess we. just have to make the best one. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Now now it's just it's. like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's. pure game theory visav other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with. Sam Alman and and Elon who hate each. other by the way where like he's playing. both sides and he's like you know we're. going to support Stargate, we're going. to support Open AI and we're going to. support Elon. Obvious you know Elon had. it. So here it is. Re excuse me. Relevant provision reads that no state.

or political subdivision may enforce any. law or regulation regarding regulating. artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or. automated decision systems during the. 10-year period beginning on the date of. enactment of this act. What? What? What? What? No state I'm going to. say that again. No state or political. subdivision may enforce any law or. regulation regulating artificial. intelligence models for 10 years. It's.

so crazy. This means that US states. would be blocked from enforcing laws. regulating AI and automated decision. systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years. we have a god. Okay. In 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we talked about yesterday. We talked about these two AIs. communicating with each other and then. they switched to Sanskrit. No way. Oh. yeah. What? Yeah. They started talking. to each other in Sanskrit. Are you. serious? Yes. That's crazy. Not not.

good. No. Not good. Not good. They're. like, "Listen, let's talk into like if. you and I were talking and you know. there were some people near us and you. know said do you speak Spanish?" Yeah. Okay. We just started talking in Spanish. so the people can't understand what. we're saying. That's what AI is doing. Jesus Christ. It's like a game of. whack-a-ole. And then what what do you. do after? Well, then it's going to talk. in Sumerian, you know, and which we. don't even know how to say, right? We. don't even know what it sounds like. So, what if they just start talking in. Sumerian? It's like, we figured it out, but we're not going to tell you now.

We're just going to talk amongst. ourselves. Exactly. Or create their own. language, right? Which would be super. easy for an AI to do. just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and. characters that that correspond to. certain things and they could create it. create its own language instantaneously. And chat GPT right now has here it is. Oh wow. Putting clawed for opus in an. open playground to chat with itself led. to diving into philosophical. philosophical explorations of. consciousness, self-awareness and by 30.

turns it eventually started using. Sanskrit. Jesus Christ. What the [ __ ]. dude? This is so. scary. In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove. into philosophical explorations of. consciousness, self-awareness, and or. the nature of their own existence and. experience. The nature of the that's the. stuff that definitely work. It's so. weird. But then you speak to the like a. lot of AI researchers. It's interesting. to see like Jeff Hinton, for example, at. Google, who's the father of deep. learning, freak out and be like, you.

know, I'm actually really worried about. AI safety. A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, "This. is statistics on steroids. This is. probability matrixes. You know, you're. seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you. know, they can't sort of there's no. ghost in the machine, you know. So, I go. back and forth on where we're going to. be, you know, and whether we're in some. crazy hype cycle. I I I have the same. concerns as you, but it's just it's hard. to predict the future. I worry probably. mostly about two things. Um, you can.

easily, you know, jailbreak chat GBT. You know, it has guardrails on it. And. what happens when you start to ask like, how do I make a nerve agent with. off-the-shelf components? Well, people. have done things like that, right? They've asked it to make anthrax. Like, if my grandmother was doing this, like, how would she like there's ways to get. the prompt to give you information that. probably shouldn't, you know? There's. stuff with UFO research where I get into. like, you know, certain technology trees.

that are probably like, you know, maybe. I shouldn't. And you can ask chatgbt. certain things like analyze this paper. and it'll spit out some really. interesting things. So, what are we doing? I don't know. And. we've already done it. So, it's too. late. Like, we lit the fuse. You think. it's over? Yeah. I also kind of think that's what people. are put here for. M if look if the whole. Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings. were genetically engineered from lower.

primates to make this super curious, hyperfocused animal that is concerned. primarily with innovation. Like overall. the thing that we do as a culture, what. do we do? We make better things all the. time. and even our own instincts towards. materialism and keeping up with the. Joneses. All that stuff essentially. fuels innovation because it fuels a. constant supply of newer, better. technology that people want to go out. and purchase, you know, you can't have. an iPhone 12. People look at what are.

you poor, you know, which is kind of. wild, you know, cuz a lot of technology. is essentially exactly the same as it. was 2015 years ago, you know, status. symbol. But yeah, it's like there's. there's a thing about it that forces us. to want to purchase these things which. forces the innovation. Well, where does. that ultimately lead to? Well, it. ultimately leads to AI. It ultimately. what's the ultimate expression of. technology? Technology that itself. invents better technology and can run.

everything without emotions that we that. [ __ ] us up and greed and all all the the. the things that we would all agree that. are a problem with human beings. I also. think there is a tide shift where if you. look at spears to airplanes, all of. those things are augmentations of human. ability. Like the everything from, you. know, way back in the day from from from. stuff that like Neanderthalss were using. to today to, you know, this 50s and 60s. with airplanes is making our lives.

better in the world of atoms. And then. with the IT revolution in the 50s and. 60s, it be starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so. like I don't need a sense of direction. because I have Google maps. My recall, I. don't need recall cuz I, you know, Google or whatever. And so it is this. interesting thing where we we actually. probably innovated more than we ever. have in the world of atoms with, you. know, nuclear bombs. And if there w were. some guard rails, if there was some sort. of higher intelligence enforcing.

homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, "Hey, go play with your it. Go go go go. go substitute a lot of your own. abilities and powers with this. We're. going to paricetize and clamp down on, you know, human abilities.". Yeah. Well, boy, it's I don't see a path where. this works out great for us. You know, is a sequel better than the. original? We're going to find out at UFC.

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terms and responsible gaming resources, see dk&ng.co/audio. Uh I think on a materialist dimension I. would agree with you if there and that's. part of like kind of why I'm do. exploring what I'm exploring because. it's a Hail Mary because I think if you. just take you know the western world and. extrapolate that forward things don't. look at or just the world in general we. have live in a multipolar nuclear world. look at what's going on in Israel you.

know. uh China is uh you know systematically. stealing our IP and and and militarizing. it. You know, they could take Taiwan at. any moment. You know, we we just have no. idea when that's going to happen. It's. CCP is a total black box. Uh uh Putin. and G have probably never been closer. And uh yeah, it's it's really freak. So, I think if you extrapolate that on a go, you know, forwards or even just the. materialist circumstances of an average. household in the US, like none of these. things look very good. Uh but I think.

now is the time where you get really. outside the Overton window thinking. You. get you throw these sort of hailmaries. and maybe we see some sort of paradigm. shift either in technology which can. create abundance if we go back to the. old tech that is augmenting of human. abilities. You get some exotic form of. propulsion that takes us beyond chemical. combustion or something like that. Yeah. Um you know or or you you you you reach. out and you you maybe you can. communicate with you know non-human. intelligence or something. I don't know.

But I think if you were ever to poke at. the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time. Yes. And if you. think about the some of the things that. force us into action in this world is we. we all need to earn a living, right? So. we need money to acquire resources. Well, what if it gets to the point where. that's not a factor anymore? What if. what if it gets to a point? What what is. money essentially right now? It's all. ones and zeros, right? And what is the.

bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is. encryption, right? So, that's how you. protect people from stealing your ones. and zeros. But what if it gets to the. point where we we're all using quantum. computing? Well, then there is no more. encryption. So, how do we reconcile with. the fact that everyone has access to. everything all the time? I mean, how do. we even enforce that? Like, what do you. do about an even distribution of. information, which is essentially. wealth? Because information is numbers. numbers or wealth, what does it where.

does it go when there's no encryption. and essentially we're pretty close to. that, right? Once quantum computing can. crack encryption, which it will be able. to do, it's all nonsense. Yeah, it totally all those zeros that. you have in your bank account, those. don't those are gone. Yeah, these are. all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is I. think uses like Shaw 256 encryption. If. you get quantum error correction, that's. gone, too. That's gone, too. It's all.

gone. Even our backup plans are [ __ ]. Yeah. And and Yeah. And then and then. it's it's kind of the apocalypse or. something because at that point, if. you're a human, you've been so caught up. with just, you know, basic uh. subsistence, you know, basic uh shelter. Uh you're probably playing some status. games and some, you know, larger. socioeconomic economic, you know, construct or whatever. food, you know, uh, you know, basic well-being. And then. at at that point, especially if you get.

these sort of super asymmetric, what if. you get some, you know, AGI that like. starts trading and, you know, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about. Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into, but like, you. know, Renaissance Technologies made like. a hundred billion dollars or something. since like, you know, 1988. Like what if. you get some super AGI or whatever that. like trades the market and like all of. the wealth gets like sucked up into like. you know single entities or like one of. these like one of the fang stocks like. one of these like you know Facebook, Apple, Google you know or open AI um you.

end up with a really weird society and. and uh you realize that the capitalist. construct that we have is in some ways. really adaptive. I mean look the flip. side is what makes humans unique. Actually Karl Marx wrote two books. Um. you know he wrote uh uh obviously the. communist manifesto in 1848. In 1844 I. believe he wrote a book um called you. know is e economic and philosophic. manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think. he got so much wrong about human nature.

But I think he's prescriptively very. wrong as far as what he prescribed for. you know as a solution. you know that. that you know uh state should own all. the means of production and you know uh. uh somehow like you know conflict would. go away. He doesn't understand human. nature. But if you look at the 1844. thing that he wrote, he's basically. talking about in capitalism. uh human behavior and and and activity. is basically animal behavior. What do we. care about? We care about food, shelter,

and then socioeconomic status as a proxy. for sexual selection essentially, right? so that you can meet. And so like it. sort of it forces us back into that. construct. But if you get some crazy. asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer. of wealth or you get the quantum error. correction or any of these things that. like dissolves that construct on the one. hand, humans, you know, they start to care. about like the things that that actually. make them special. So like they're. self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, like all these.

beautiful things can come out. And then. on the other hand, it probably gets. super ugly as well. There's probably. something very adaptive about the. capitalist construct where you need to. be stuck in these sort of local games. that you're playing. Yeah. But it's one. of those things where you wonder like. how does capitalism play out? Like if. there is. AI, it it kind of runs into a wall and. it's not valid anymore. Yeah. Well, this. is this is the reason that I think we're.

going to see I think we've already seen. an iron curtain, if you will, of. technology. And I think there is. technology that is black technology and. science that is black science and then I. think there's stuff out in the open and. you've had, you know, Mark Andre on your. podcast. He went to the White House, spoke to um some National Security. Council staffer or something and they. were like, "We're going to lock down AI. just like we've locked down physics.". And so I think this has already maybe. happened in certain contexts and you. know super secret department of energy. facilities which I think it's crazy to.

say that that hasn't happened. You're. saying that it only happened with the. Manhattan project and it hasn't happened. since. That's insane. There is black. science in my opinion. Um, and it's I. think what you're talking about is the. reason why we'll need black AI and white. side AI because if you just. commercialize all of this stuff sort of. willy-nilly, I mean it just runs a muck. and then and then what happen like you. probably need some like really. impressive panel to be thinking if if if.

OpenAI figures out some like new insane. exciting unlock, you need to think. through all you need to game out all the. implications before you just let that. happen. How do you even do that with a. human mind? It's a great So you have to. bring the AI in to help you game for AI. Well, we're [ __ ] We're [ __ ] That's. what I'm saying. Because once it becomes. sentient Yeah. Right. And once it. becomes autonomous and can kind of make. its own decisions, like that's kind of. game over and that's the race. We're. we're running towards the cliff.

It's really scary. It's really scary. But isn't that probably what we're here. for? Like let's let's take the most. fantastic of all possible theories which. is that human beings were genetically. engineered. Well, if you wanted to seed. the cosmos with super intelligent life. akin to what is visiting us, how would. you manifest that? You would do it. exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings and you.

would essentially do the same thing that. we did with wolves when we turned them. into dogs. Yep. And if you look from the. time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone. levels. Look at what's happening to m. with microlastics. The ind endocrine. disruptors. We're essentially weakening. the human skeletal system and endocrine. system. All our our hormonals are all.

down. Miscarriages are up. Birth rates. are lower. We're we're moving towards in. vitro fertilization. I was watching some. guy on TV today and he was a on a panel. and he was explaining that our. grandchildren are going to laugh at the. idea of sexual procreation because no. one's going to be doing that. Oh, you. just took a chance with abnormalities. and down syndrome and all sorts of. chromosomeal issues. And why would you. do that? Why would you have sex for. babies when you can do it with in vitro.

fertilization and like Yeah, it's going. to be like that that Pixar movie Wall-E. or like like we're going to be like in. the fetal position hooked up to the Borg. or whatever. We're probably all going to. look like the grays. Like the gray. Well, that's a crazy. So, there's. actually a biological anthropologist at. Montana Tech University. His name is. Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your. show talk about how aliens could be. humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan. He. talks about how sperm count is 59% per. capita of what it was in 1973. Insane.

Testosterone's fallen off a cliff. We. are being a a a dog is to a wolf what we. are to what a gray alien looks. like. They lose the melanin in their. skin. That's what happens when you. become domesticated. So there is a a. biological anthropologist named Mike. Masters who literally wrote a whole book. and he goes deep into all the. abductions. like he'll talk about Travis. Walton and he'll talk about Betty and. Barney Hill and he'll be like this is. why these are beings from the future.

that are coming back into time and in. many cases uh uh abductees have to. undergo chemical rinses as to not infect. the future with a foreign pathogen. Um. uh you know t tissue samples by you know. genetic samples or um is it the future. or are we dealing with beings that have. gone through this already and are at. another stage? not us in the future, but. they're more advanced. Like maybe they. live in a solar system where whatever.

planet they're on doesn't have the same. amount of near-Earth objects that cause. impacts and reset civilization every. 12,000 years or whatever the [ __ ]. happens here. That that's possible, but. then we would have to be sort of an AB. test because if you think about the just. the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the. likelihood of evolutionary convergence. to look like a homminid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever. extremely. low. But is it because what if that's. what all solar systems are? You know, Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy.

Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not. really educated in some different things. that he talks about. And Eric was like, "You got to stop teaching. Like, you're. you're one of us. You're a brilliant. guy, but you need to be like classically. educated on this stuff, really. understand what you're talking about.". But he had this really fascinating idea. about planets. And he thinks that. planets as they get a specific distance. from the sun, then they're capable of.

supporting life and that all of them get. to the same stage. And then a planet is. essentially peopleing. And then as the. planets move further and further from. the sun, they have. to adapt advanced technology in order to. stabilize their atmosphere, in order to. sustain life in this new harsh. environment where they're not protected. in the Goldilock zone anymore. And he. thinks that planets are formed from. excretions from the sun. And as they.

move further and further from the sun, they become habitable and then less. habitable and then uninhabitable. And. we're kind of finding that out about. Mars. Yeah. Which is the Mars is a weird. one because you know there's the remote. viewers that went like a billion years. in the past of Mars and saw advanced. civilizations and now we're finding. structures on Mars like that square that. they found on Mars. which is hundreds of.

meters across at the very least maybe. larger. Verified right angles, four of. them impossible to exist in nature in. that form. It looks like walls. Yeah, it. looks like four square walls. Like the. Sidonia thing is really weird. The face. on Mars is weird, but maybe maybe just kind of weird that. you know sometimes you know side of a. mountain looks like someone's face, but. it's not really someone's face. is just, you know, once in a lifetime sort of.

But the square Yeah, that [ __ ] pull. that image up of that square on Mars. The square is [ __ ] bananas. Like, what's that? It's so nuts. That really. looks like a [ __ ] building. Yeah, it. looks like a building. Like the base of. a building, you know, a million years. later or whatever the hell it is. This. episode is brought to you by Rocket. Money. With prices going up on just. about everything lately, being smart. with your money isn't just a good idea. It's essential, but managing. subscriptions, tracking spending, and.

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know I sent you. Don't wait. Download. the Rocket Money app today and tell them. you heard about them from my show. And. even conventional astronomers will say. that Mars had a biosphere at some point. It was possibly stripped of its. magneettosphere. And I don't know if you. remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a. meteorite called. ALH84001, which had polyclic. hydrocarbons on it. It had like little.

bacterial fossils on it. He gave a. speech being like, you know, maybe there. was life on Mars, you know, due to this. This is pretty crazy. I interviewed. actually um a guy named John Brandenberg. who's a PhD. He's worked at Sandia. National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence. Livermore. incredibly smart guy. He. talks about the existence of uh xenon. 129 and argon 40, these specific uh uh. nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in. excess of what you would find with just.

a a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he. thinks there was sort of this nuclear. holocaust on Mars. And then yeah, you. have Joseph McMongle who's remote viewer. number one. You've had Hal Putoff on who. ran the Stargate program. Uh Joseph. McMongle was the number one remote. viewer in that program. I've interviewed. him. I don't know who tasked him, but in. the 90s the CIA tasked him with remote. viewing Mars 1 million years ago and he. claimed to have remote viewed homminid. like creatures, but there they were like. 12 to 14 feet tall walking around.

pyramidal structures. I don't know. Very. strange. And then you get into like. crazier territory. You know, Richard. Hogland had all these pictures of. structures on Mars and like I don't know. how much weight to put in that. Hogland. did a lot of weird leaps though. I've. watched tons tons. But I think the. people that say like 0% there was life. on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there. are water caverns all over Mar there. That that is a fact. So you have to be. dogmatic to say that there wasn't life. at some point. You know, I'm not saying.

you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage. possibly real on the Terren Howard. stuff. I see zero evidence for I mean I. have no idea but um that would point to. maybe like I would believe that if like. our whole universe is sort of. information theoretic. So like you have. you know John Wheeler you know famous. physicist from from Princeton you know. saying we we live in this sort of. observer dependent univer he talks about. like the enthropic principle like where. plank's constant were slightly different. the earth's atmosphere would you know.

wouldn't exist as is and you know. another example is like hydrogen and. oxygen bond to form these perfect. crystal structures where the solid form. of it so ice is less dense than the. liquid form of it which never happens. that's just because of these perfect. crystal structures. And if that weren't. the case, the earth would flood like a. million times over. You know, the earth. is mostly water, right? So, you have all. these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the earth that could point. towards the earth has been tried in a,

you know, a bajillion iterations and we. just got really lucky. You know, it's. like the Elon thing. We are the little. flaming candle in, you know, in this. vast cosmos that is conscious and we're. extremely lucky. Or that could point to. the Earth being simulated, right? And. so, you know, and then so then maybe. Terren Terren Howard is right. If if the. Earth is simulated, there are probably. AB tests going on just like in computer. science. And then there's the moon. And then the. moon's weird, too. The moon's really. weird. The moon's super weird. The size.

of the moon directly corresponding like. when it's in orbit with the sun. completely blocks out the sun perfectly. It's 1/400th the size of the sun and. it's 400 times closer to the Earth than. the sun. You never see the dark side. which is very weird. It's actually I. think I believe it's it's closer to the. Earth than what you would normally. expect for a moon. And it's huge. It's. huge. You have cultures actually talking. about a premoon period and it's. stabilizing the climate. You have the,

you know, Zulu cultures talking about. this. Um, and then this is the weirdest. stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster. took off on the moon, they were like, "Oh, we it might we think it might be. hollow and it's, you know, the it seems. like actually the outer layer of the. moon is less dense or sorry, is is more. dense than lower layers, which pattern. matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously, you know, in Earth, the the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they.

intentionally crashed the booster of uh. the lunar vehicle onto the the moon. They put seismometers there and they. said that it rang like a bell. These. this is all fact. You can look all this. up. It's super weird. It is really. weird. You know, I know you did an. episode about that with Randall Carlson. Love Randle Carlson. Yeah, he's got some. wild [ __ ] theories, too. But that the. the idea that the moon was somehow. another place there to stabilize our.

atmosphere is so crazy. It is crazy. And. then this is you obviously have to sort. of think in probabilities all the way. down. Lowest probability craziest thing. is Engo Swan who is another remote. viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote. a book called Penetration where he's. basically like abducted by this guy in a. suit like this kind of Men in Black. style guy named Axel Rod and he is told. to remote view the moon and he remote.

views an alien base on the moon and he. says that there and he gets it the whole. thing goes cra I mean the book is. insane. It's like he then ends up in a. supermarket and he says that he senses. that this woman that you know the. produce aisle is like an alien or. something. Uh but a lot of people from. that Stargate program remote viewed you. know structures on the dark side of the. moon and that sort of thing. So well but. AJ from the Y files was on and he was he. was the one that was telling us that. there's photos right of the dark side of.

the moon that someone had seen photos. and was assuming that these would be. released shortly that there was. structures they w this is going to be. the biggest news ever and then it was. never released. Are you talking about maybe uh Carl. Wolf? Is that what it was? Who was taken. to This is all his claims and he died in. a freakish bike accident a little after. saying this, but he said that there was. like in in like Langley, you know, Virginia where a lot of spooky stuff. goes on. He was taken to some like it.

was like inside a mountain complex which. we definitely Yeah. Carl Wolf. Yeah, that guy bikes. Apparently not enough. That guy could. die any time. Oh man, on a scooter. So, photographs of the 1966 lunar orbiter. mission that revealed large base of the. moon. Can we hear what he's saying? Just hear a little bit of it. Scan one section of the moon, then. another, and another, and then they. would get a larger image. So, this.

mosaic then would be put in that contact. printer, and that was then a print that. was issued to whomever, the press, the. scientist, whatever, wherever that was. intended to go. So, he was showing me. how all this worked and we walked over. to one side of the lab and he said, "By. the way, we've discovered a base on the. back side of the moon." And I said, I. said, "Who's? What do you mean who's?" He. said, "Yes, there's we've discovered a. base on the back side of the moon." And. at that point, I become became.

frightened and I was a little terrified. thinking to myself that if anybody walks. in the room now, I know we're we're in. jeopardy. were in trouble because he. shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew. that he was overstepping a boundary that. he shouldn't be stepping over. And then. he pulled out one of these mosaics and. showed showed this base which had. geometric shapes. There were towers. There were uh spherical uh buildings. Uh.

there were very tall uh towers and. things that looked somewhat like radar. dishes, but they were large structures. So I um I didn't say anymore to him. because I was concerned again that. somebody was going to come in at any. moment would catch us having this. conversation and we would be in in in. real trouble. I realized that he was. telling me this information because he. didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now. probably in that laboratory he was. probably the one of the few uh enlisted.

people and he was a workerbe and he had. a high level security clearance. obviously but he couldn't share that. information with anybody else and in. those days we didn't when you had your. security clearance you took it. seriously. It isn't like today where. people don't take these things. seriously. We had a different set of. morals and ethics and values. That's the. way we were raised and we we stayed. bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would would. do something like this. But this fellow. and I were the same rank. I think he he.

was very distressed. Uh he he had the. same power and demeanor as the. scientists outside the room. They were. just as concerned as he was. And he. needed to he needed to discuss it with. somebody. So that was the end of it. right there. I didn't take it any. further than that. I you know I I just. filed it away. But the interesting. thing, every day that I went home, I. would think to myself, I can't wait to. hear about this on the news, you know,

and you know, so I'd turn on the TV and. I'd look at the news to see if they're. going to announce we've discovered a. base on the back side of the moon, being. really naive, you know, and of course. here it is 30ome years later and we. still haven't heard about it. Whoa. Whoa. Pretty crazy. Yeah. But then. there's the question of. disinformation, right? Like you could. conceivably give people a bunch of. nonsense and tell them about it knowing.

that some of it is going to leak and. it's going to make and it won't be. verified and it's going to make this. whole story seem even more ridiculous. and make people less less likely or. reluctant to study it. Totally. And in. his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever. where all of the world's nations were. working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space. program or whatever. So, that to me. might be a little, you know, beyond the.

pale. And I'm glad you made that point. because that is ufology 101. And I've. heard you be incredibly exhausted and. frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I. think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited. hangouts. It's just we're going to give. you a little bit, but we're also going. to sprinkle in some falsities and some. [ __ ] We're going to stigmatize it. And it it kind of works because it like. it creates this initiation path for. recruiting if there are any of these.

programs. It widens the surface area. It. both conditions the populace but also. stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem. like kind of a joke. And so I think if. you are not viewing modern disclosure. through that kind of hermeneutic lens of. like interpretation and you were just. taking it accepting it you know embibing. it wholeheartedly like primaaccia I. think you are in trouble. Yeah. But. that's what's so interesting and fun and. also frustrating about the subject. Yeah. I mean that's like the majority of.

your videos is like I don't know. I. don't know what to think. I don't I. don't know who's full of [ __ ] I don't. know how I mean I was I was watching the. Towns and Brown one today um and you. were talking about John Lear and John. Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the. possibility that Lear was spreading. disinformation. Yep. Yeah. So like Le. Yeah. That's a I've by the way since. making that video I've become more. positive on Lazar just in so far as I.

think he was at S4 Area 51. And there's. going to be a great documentary coming. out by my buddy Luigi on this called. Project Gravitar. And I think there's. going to be a lot of corroborating. evidence that he was at least there and. a lot in his story checks. But I think. you have to view and I even say that in. this video that I think a lot of the. story could be true. You can't I think. view the Bob Lazar story. You can't just. take it at face value because John Leer.

and he were friends. John Leer is this. babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with. UFO. He's writing weird like disinfoy. style stuff with Bill Cooper. Behold the. pale horse guy, which is a wild book. Which is a wild book. Wild. Yeah. And so. he's crazy. He talks about, doesn't he. talk about bases on the moon? Talks. about bases on the moon. Lear also. talked about a soul catcher that like. controlled our souls on the moon. Oh. boy. And so Lear was like flooding the. zone with all sorts of weird [ __ ] Lear. comes from an interesting family. His. father is Bill Leer, who's the autopilot.

wizard. He created the first business, you know, basically the first private. jet, the Lear Jet, uh, in the 50s and. 60s and was an associate of a guy I hope. we talk about named Thomas Towns and. Brown. Yeah. And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts. of [ __ ] Was he a useful idiot or. was he a sophisticated agent provocator? I'm totally open to him having been a. useful idiot. In fact, there is a video. of him saying I was told uh I was given. all the Bob Lazar files or whatever and.

I was I was told about, you know, umhuh. uh to to actually like he said a guy. named Admiral Mlelen knew that I ran my. mouth. I I even have this video actually. on the dock that I sent you, Jamie. He. says knew that I ran my mouth. Uh so. that's why we we basically we got Bob a. job or whatever. We knew that part of. this stuff would leak and it was like. this limited hangout strategy on behalf. of this guy named Admiral Mlen or. whatever and he was this useful idiot to.

sort of get get it out and I think there. to what for what purpose? recruiting you. give people high level. Yeah. Here. and. the MJ personnel the original 12 uh have. all passed away. So they put they get. different people uh into uh these. positions of MJ 2 3 four five six uh and. taken over. It's degraded. though it's.

almost political now instead of like it. was when Truman originally formed the. MJ12. It turns out that MJ1, the head of. MJ12 is a guy named Admiral Mike Mlen. He wanted to get some of the information. out because he he didn't re he didn't. want to uh he thought that some of this. information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way. to get it to the public. So he knew that.

uh I was a blabbermouth and I would tell. anything I knew. Uh they investigated. Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a. genius. Uh but that he had a background. such uh that they could instantly. discredit him. They removed all his. records from MIT from Caltech. So he. couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to. G. No, I don't see any records here. Well, I was here. No, you weren't. And. uh he also uh up in Reno at one time he.

he ran a cat house there. Um I forget. what the name of the honeysuckle ranch. it was. Uh so they chose him because not. only could he probably help them because. he was so smart. And his mur he's the. one that named uh an unpenium 115. He's. the one that told them what that was and. they didn't know uh when when he went. there they didn't know what it was. He. was the one that told him that's element. 115 and then told him why and how he'd.

figured it out. But uh they decided to. pick on Bob. uh to get go up there the work at ES for. because he they knew that Bob would tell. me instantly and then I would blab the. whole thing. And that was their motive. separi was to get the information out. and gauge what it did to the public, how. they accepted it, and then pull back and. say, "Oh, no. It was all a mistake. Bob. Lazar is a uh a fraud. He never worked.

here. He doesn't have any credentials. like that." And they could back away and. get out of it. So that was what Mike. McClung Mlen came up with. Isn't that. crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me, kind of. makes sense a little bit though. It. does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar. still not the most interesting story in. the world. Like he's saying he's not. saying it didn't happen, right? He's. just saying that this happened as part. of this limited hangout strategy where. they knew that they could delete the. records at MIT. They knew that they.

could stigmatize him because of the. brothel. They knew that there, you know, he was this not traditionally trained. engineer who just happened to strap a. ramjet on the back of a Honda or. whatever and meet Edward Teller. serendipitously. They knew that they. could. They had plausible deniability on. all that stuff. There's a great line in. the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie. Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, "I. didn't hire Oppenheimer uh uh in spite. of his communist sympathies. I hired him. because of them." So, you have a top. secret program. You want comprom.

And so, I think, you know, that should. be taken at face value in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself. can't be taken at face value and needs. to be seen through that lens is Lear and. and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob. Lazar got a job at Area at Area 51 S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background. check and and and Lear is going to come. up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And.

then the CIA is all over the UFO. program, right? and he was flying CIA. cargo jets and and and he says that he. disaffiliated in ' 83. That's [ __ ]. George Knap and and Jeremy Corbell have. talked about how that's how that's BS. and actually disaffiliated much later. into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would. you continue to pay a guy who is leaking. your crown jewel secrets? Uh and then. the guards at Area 51 knew John Leon. Leer and Jim Goodall, his buddy who's a. photographer had been camping out at.

Area 51 for the better part of a decade. like they the security guards there knew. him. Jeremy Corbel is has talked about. in interviews like I would go with John. Lear and and he would show me around or. whatever and they would like let him. through and before leaking the Bob Lazar. story to George Knap he leaked a story. about the F-17 which is the first. stealth craft in the US and so I think. that helped establish sort of you know. credibility or legitimacy. Was he a. useful idiot or agent provocator? I. don't know. There's a photo of John Leer.

with G. Gordon Litty, who's like as deep. and spooky as it gets. I met him. No. way. He was on Fear Factor. No way. G. Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Are you. serious? You're not messing with me. No. No. G. Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Yeah. What? Yeah. He probably would have. won, but there was a driving thing at. the end and he couldn't drive well. without glasses and you weren't allowed. to wear glasses. Yeah. Look at that. G. Gordon Litty and John Le. That is the. most gonzo thing I've ever You Gordon.

Litty was How does he What did you You. have like a quota of like It was. celebrity factor. Celebrity fear factor. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild, man. He's a. fascinating guy. Like he was intense. Meeting him. I was like, "Okay, what was. he like?" [ __ ] intense. There was one. of the things where you had to be hung. by your ankles and like there he is. Oh. my god. G. Gordon Litty on Fear Factor. Yeah, he looks nuts. Oh yeah, he was. nuts and he was very old at the time. But I think that's what [ __ ] him up. But in the final stunt, he uh couldn't.

see well without his glasses. And so. this is the thing. They had to like d I. forget what they had to do. They had to. Oh, they they were dunked into the water. over and over again and then they had to. like take flags off of them or something. like that. Oh my god. Yeah. Wild. Wild. Did you sneak any questions in No, I. didn't. You know, I didn't have much. time to talk to him, unfortunately. He's But, uh, you could just tell. talking to him. Like, he was one intense. [ __ ] even as an old man. Did.

you get sociopathic vibes? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just like he'll do whatever the. [ __ ] it takes to get it get the job. done. Pulled off Watergate. Yeah. Look. at him there. Oh my god. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. That is. unbelievable. What an art. What an. amazing that just I mean you've had a. lot of crazy experiences in life. That's. that's crazy. That's a weird one. That. was a weird one cuz everybody was you. know they weren't the people that were. on the show weren't nearly as fascinated.

as I was. I was like do you know how. [ __ ] wild that dude is. Yeah. I mean. that guy is deep. He's deep in there. Deep. Very deep. Oh my. god. Unbelievable. Yeah. Wild. It's a Gonzo moment. Yeah, for sure. Like very strange. Like why. would you do this? It was It was I don't. even understand why he did it. It's. proof we live in a simulation. Yeah, maybe. It was very strange. Like what.

would be his objective? Like I feel. people like that love [ __ ] around. They love getting a rise out of people. and they love, you know, if he is a. sociopath, he loves, you know, going. back to the scene of the crime and just. as much attention as he can get. I don't. I can't psychoanalyze G. Gordon famously. put cigarettes out on himself and put. hold his hand under flames. I didn't. know that. Just to show that he could. control his response to pain.

Say goodbye. And he felt like that when. you're around him, you know, like like. so that thing that they had to do where. they got dunked and they, you know, they're hanging by their ankles and. dunked into water. So it disorients you. while you're trying to do this task. He. did it better than anybody. Wow. And. they just couldn't 150 years old or. whatever the [ __ ] he was. Yeah. I felt. like we're going to kill him. He's like. really old to be doing this intense. physical thing to him. Yeah. But at the. end he just couldn't see at night. You. know his like when you get old your.

nighttime vision is real bad. Poor. Gordon Litty. Yeah. But so the How did. Lazard know what element 115 was? I don't know. you know so element. 115 elements are just differentiated by. the number of protons so it is easy to. predict there will be an element 115. before element 115 gets discovered if. they have I don't I think they don't. have a stable version of Muscovium which. is element 115 and so if they can find.

some stable version I think he'll be. super vindicated based on that well you. know they think he has a stable version. I would know that they think that was. part of during Jeremy Corbell's. documentary that he was doing on Lazar. He was raided by the FBI. They raided. his lab and he thinks that's what they. were looking for. That is wild. Yeah. I. I think there is so much real about the. Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I. think he met Edward Teller. I think he. was at Los Alamos. I think he was at.

MIT. I know he he's there's some stuff. he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a. lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk. about what you were doing. There's a lot. of federally funded weird stuff going. on. If you want to teach your people how. to do something that's kind of [ __ ]. up, what you would send them to MIT. 100%. EG&G came from Doc Edertton who. was, you know, MIT faculty and that's. who where he ended up working after. meeting Edward Teller was EGNG. Um, so I. I believe there's a lot in that story. that's super true. I'm just that lens.

You need to apply that lens, the limited. hangout lens. Well, it's also like what. is he dealing with really? Like what is. the craft? Is that thing ours? Is do did. we have something in 1988 that was that. sophisticated or is that really. backineered? That's the what is the is. it a mind [ __ ] That's a trillion dollar. question. Is this tech protect? This is. at a time when stealth craft had just. came on the scene and you had when did.

stealth technology first get. implemented? It was the F-17 was the. first stealth craft. That was the early. '8s and you had actually this guy named. Ptor Ufimsev who is this uh what a name. yeah very a great name uh uh uh early. 20th century Russian mathematician that. Ben Rich and some of his engineers at. Lockheed Skunkworks had resuscitate. there's this kind of uh um fight between. not fight but disagreement between Ben. Rich who is the incoming skunk works.

director skunkworks is the most advanced. R&D division of Loheed Martin and uh. Kelly Johnson the legendary guy who. started skunk works and so uh Ben Rich. was very pro- stealth. He thought that. this was this really important modality. and he and a couple of his engineers. resuscitated this obscure Russian. mathematician to reduce radar. crosssections on planes and that's where. the F-17 came and you know the B2 was. sort of the response to that and it sort. of took off in the 80s and he was.

extremely. uh scared about about tech protection at. the time. I mean, he was hypervigilant. and he would actively complain about it. and he even called UFOs unfunded. opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy, [Laughter]. right? So, that's the backdrop. And. there's also in 1986, there's a budget. line item in the congressional budget. for $2 billion for the Aurora. And um uh. this is this super stealthy craft that's.

post. F-17. And uh that's only rumored. Like. today, nobody will admit that the aurora. might have been real. And the uh the. aerial surveys at the time were picking. up sonic booms that weren't being. created by the SR71 or the space. shuttle. And so there was something. being flown around at that time that. was, you know, causing these sonic booms. that was unaccounted for. Wow. And Bob. Lazar, there's even a clip of him. saying, "I saw the aurora. It was like, you know, it was it was around at the. time and it sort of just took off or. whatever." which is, I think, a point in.

the direction that Lazar himself is very. earnest and probably did experience some. very weird stuff because why are you. exposing some probably classified tech? I I think there's a lot of reasons to. believe that the Aurora was real. There. was a an oil rig engineer in the North. Sea uh or sorry, maybe it might have. been the Black Sea that sketched it out. and Bill Sweetman, this um uh James. Defense Weekly uh aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up there. What did he describe it as? uh this this. uh kind of it was a triangle similar to. the B2 but I think more more narrow and.

it just flew incredibly fast like like. uh uh faster than you know the F-17 and. and um yeah I don't know it was it was. super advanced. Can you envision I mean. would it be actually possible in 1988. to could you imagine that the United. States would possess some sort of actual. technology that's not back engineered. that's not not from another world that.

is what Lazar described. It's funny you. should ask that. Yes I do. Yes. Really? Yes. And that's not to say I don't want. to again pour cold water on the like UFO. crash retrieval stuff because I think. there's a lot of interesting evidence. there. But is there a tech tree that. involves anti-gravity? Absolutely. In. the US and I can trace it all the way. back to this guy named Thomas Towns and. Brown. So if we were to be talking in. front of any academic physicist right.

now, they would laugh at us. They'd be. like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk. amongst any aerospace gray beard who is. at a certain level, I think they'd give. you a little wink and a smile and they'd. say, "Okay, like maybe there's something. there." And so, uh, the nominal history. is that we have never been able we have. we don't have exotic propulsion. principles. Like everything is, you. know, chemical combustion essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, you. know, um, it's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better. And I. remember you asked him, you're like,

"Well, maybe if you what if you could. get something better." And he's like, "It's impossible.". Um, we have not unified the field in. physics. So, you have the weak force, the strong force, um, and and. electromagnetism. And all of those have. been reconciled. Gravity is out here. hanging out by itself on an island. So, you have the standard model, quantum. field theory, and you have Einstein's. theory of gravity. And the two are not. reconcilable. It is my belief that if. you were to reconcile them, you could. create exotic propulsion, which I think,

you know, any even, you know, reasonable. theoretical physicist who's credentialed. would say if you could reconcile them, that's that's possible. I think that. Thomas Townsen Brown did this. experimentally, not theoretically. I. don't think he was a very strong. theoretical physicist, but I think he. did this experimentally. And so there's. this whole hidden history involving. anti-gravity. And I get into this in my. show with how put off and Eric Weinstein. where there's actually this great 1971. Australian Joint Intelligence.

Organization document that is verified. It's real. David Grush actually cites it. a lot and it talks about uh uh basically. it's this guy Harry Turner who's the. head of the nuclear division at in. Australia. Um you know very legit guy. He's like their Oenheimer if you will. and uh and um they they were actually. they had a womera test range um in in. southern Australia. So there were some. actually British Empire like like. nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly. like I think um uh missile testing but.

there reasons to believe that maybe he. started to get interested in UFOs to. begin with. And so he looked into US. efforts into you know UFO research but. also specifically anti-gravity. And he talks about how after a little. bit of investigation, uh, uh, US efforts into anti-gravity are. far deeper than meet the eye. And Blue. Book, this front-facing PR campaign. that's part of the Air Force is total. BS. And it's meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and and throw people off.

the trail. And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around. the Robert the Robertson memo, which is. around this Robertson panel that kind of. created the constitution for for a blue. book all shows that this was the case. with blue book. He says actually there. were secret anti-gravity programs going. on at the time and they involved and he. lists names Oenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler and Edward Teller. He lists. all these names the head head of the you. knowh nuclear program in Australia. Uh,

and so then you have to ask the. question, okay, so you have this like. official government document saying this. stuff like does this line up with any. artifacts at the time. Well, actually in. 1956 there's an article um in Young. Men's magazine, this kind of aviation. hobbyist journal uh uh journal by a guy. named Michael Gladic, and he is quoting. all of the industry experts. You know, he's Bill Leer is quoted who we talked. about. Um, uh, uh, uh, who else is. quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at. Martin Corporation, their RAAS, their.

anti-gravity research program. He says, uh uh anti-gravity research is, you. know, we're gonna we're uh we're going. to figure this out in in just amount in. just the same amount of time that it. took to figure out the atom bomb. Like. it's it's right around the bend sort of. thing. You had uh um the patron of of uh. Bell aircraft. They had just broken the. sound barrier with the with the X1 1947. So there you go. Michael Glad the G. engines are coming. Yeah. Whoa. Whoa. By far the most potent.

source of energy is gravity. Using it as. power. Future aircraft will attain the. speed of light. Holy [ __ ]. And and uh Belle says like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels. to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnowit. and Stanley Desert. Look at they have a. diagram of how it would work. It's wild. Protective boundary layer. Yep. Cabin. electronic rockets, gravity generator. They talk about uh gravity particles. Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowit at.

Princeton are studying this. So what do. you think was going on? I think they. were deeply investigating anti-gra I. mean there there you think they had a. working model? I think they had an. effect called the Biffield Brown effect. that showed that you could couple. electromagnetism and gravity at a base. level and you could do it in a vacuum. which rules out ionized air as the. possible reason for thrust. So I I'll. back up and I'll just give you what the. experiment is. So it's you take a.

capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is. a positive electrode and a negative. electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. The negative electrode is bigger than. the positive capacitor and the two are. uh uh in between the two is an insulator. called the high K dialectric. So it's a. material that stores a lot of uh. electromagnetic charge. You pump the. entire thing with high voltage and low. current electricity and Brown used to do. it with uh DC direct current pulses. and.

you see thrust going from uh the. negative to the positive. And if you do. that in air, then you can always say. that it's ionized air because ions are. being produced and then you get this. equal and opposite reaction with the. wind and then you get this thrust, right? So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a um depressurized. vacuum chamber uh where there basically. is no air to to to to you know create.

this kind of equal and opposite force. for the thrust then you are breaking. physics as we know it. There are other. things that break physics as we know it. you had Sunny White on. He talked about. like the the Casemir effect, you know, which is a a real effect that involves. uh. uh uh not charged but conductive plates. that are very close to each other that. seem to attract. Um there's the bone the. airoff bomb effect which might be. explained by the electromagnetic for. potential. There are other effects in.

physics where you don't you can't quite. explain it in the current model but they. are harbingers if you will of the next. paradigm. I believe that when you find. an anomaly, it is pointing towards the. next scientific paradigm. Black body. radiation is a great example was. discovered in the 1870s by a guy named. Gustaf Kirchov. We could not explain it. until the quantum revolution with Max. Plank where he, you know, actually. discovered quanta. Um, uh, the orbit of. Mercury is another good example where we.

didn't understand, you know, we couldn't. calculate, uh, uh, Mercury's orbit until. we had spacetime curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my. belief is the Bfield Brown effect is an. anomaly that seemed to ostensibly. visually unify the field or it's. pointing towards something else. gravitational shielding or it's pointing. towards how putoff stuff around you know. quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't. know. I don't have a great uh uh the. theory for how it works. I don't think. Brown had an amazing theory for how it.

works. But it's an effect that I think. creates this tech tree of exotic. electromagnetic propulsion that leads us. to today. It's an effect that's not. supposed to happen. And this what is. this Jamie? Is that it? The. Bible thruster in a vacuum. Yeah, that. that's a that's a lateral propeller. version of it. And you don't have to. listen to me, by the way. The lead. electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy. named Charles Beller. He's been doing.

this for 20 years and he's had access. he's at at um Kennedy Space Center. He. is the lead they use electrostatics to. like clean dust off the you know lunar. lander or whatever because those. particles are actually charged and um. super he's the most senior guy in. electrostatics and he says this is not a. conventional electrostatic force and he. attributes his work to Towns and Brown. I could show you in an interview he he. literally says Towns and Brown was like. the first guy to discover this. He he. he's updated it a bit. He says that um.

it's not just sheer voltage. You don't. need to use mega voltage and actually. electric field strength is the most. important thing. So we use kilovolts and. he amps up the electric field strength. in order to get more thrust. But he has. a whole company around this. It's called. Exodus Space. So like you don't have to. listen another very you know. credentialed person if we're if we're on. that uh a guy named Carl Nell who I have. reason to believe that some of Brown's. work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. I don't think it's the anti-gravity.

part. It's a part called. electro-hydrodnamics that made it into. the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is. I interviewed a guy who was the deputy. CTO of Northrup Grumman. And he also was. the army representative of the UAP task. force along with David Gush where they. were investigating UFOs. And he says I I. was in a room, you know, filled with. venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I. was like, Carl, these people want. actionable stuff. like can you actually. make progress with any of this UFO stuff. or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of um uh not.

even wrong as Fineman would say? And he. goes, "Well, if you want, you know, some. actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video. on Thomas Towns and Brown." And so, like, I've gotten this time and time. again where I've had all these private. experiences about, you know, with Brown. where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? Like, this is crazy. And it's, you know, I don't know. It's weird. So, let's take. this back to when was Brown conducting. these experiments experiments initially.

Yeah. What year was this? The early 20s. So, like 1923 24 range. Whoa. He was a. child prodigy. So, they're newspaper. climate. He was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. In 1915, uh he was, you know, caught in the. garden or whatever using charged rods to. get worms to ascend to the top of the. soil. Then at age 12, he the World War. government under Woodro Wilson, it was. probably the local government, told him. to take down a wireless transmitter that.

he had created, an antenna that he had. created, like this walkietalkie system. that he had developed at the time. And. there there's newspaper clippings. talking about this at the time that like. totally corroborate this. He then goes. to Caltech. He studies under a guy named. Robert Milikin who's actually a really. wellrespected physicist who um was. helped developed Einstein's. photoelectric effect or actually you. know demonstrated experimentally. Milikin doesn't really give him the time. of day on on the biffield brown effect. and the way he discovered the effect is.

actually he was using uh coolage X-ray. tubes. So these were really early X-ray. tubes and they have every X-ray tube has. or every Coolage tube has. um a cathode and an anode. So a negative. and a positive electrode. And he would. pump it full of um you know high voltage. electricity and the wire would jump and. then he would he would actually he would. put in a fixed chassis and it would keep. jumping and then he would suspend it. from you know the ceiling and it would. keep jumping and he was like what's. going on? Like this isn't supposed to.

happen. And there are ways to again. explain that away via traditional. electrostatics. So he later got the idea. to do this in a vacuum chamber and. really prove it. But after Caltech he. then goes to Dennis University where he. studies under a guy named Paul Alfred. Biffield. And Dennis University for the. longest time has denied that. relationship and now they're admitting. it which is I find really funny. Then. the archivist there is now admitting it. there is an affidavit uh from the Navy. saying where Paul Alfred Bifeld signs a.

letter saying I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there he. goes on and it's witnessed by a guy. named Victor Bertrandius who's at the. right Patterson right airfield at the. time flight test division. He's working. with Colonel Albert Boyd um on all the. you know crazy flight tests in 1952. He. says, "Believe it or not, I saw a model. of a flying saucer and I was frightened. and I'm frightened for it getting out. because," and I'm paraphrasing a little. bit because I believe it's in the stage. of early atomic development and that's.

1952. Um, he then shows a fan. precipitator experiment which really. shows the electro hydrodnamic effect. which is similar but not the same as the. the electromagnetism gravity thing to. Edward Teller, the father of the Hbomb. And Edward Teller himself says, "I don't. know how this works." And then his wife. turns to Towns and Brown's daughter, and. I have this, by the way, on a phone call. where with Towns and Brown's daughter. who's saying this all happened. Uh turns. to to um to her and she says, "I've.

never heard him say that because he's. such a genius. I mean, he was Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the. Hbomb." And um so you have all these. interesting eyewitnesses. Ed um uh Brown. was an associate of Bill Leer. You have. video of Bill Leer and Towns and Brown. together in a lab in the Baineson lab in. North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957. which is basically creates quantum. gravity of which the offshoot is string.

theory and actually Eric Weinstein. talked about it on your show. It's at. the Institute of Field Physics in North. Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding. Brown's work in the back room and there. is video of Brown working on his. experiments working under Agnu Bainson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence. memo, you have all these outposts of. anti-gravity research. University of. North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of. Scientific Intelligence is coordinating.

all this stuff. the president of. University of North Carolina in the 50s. around this time is a guy named Gordon. Gray who's a super spooky guy who uh he. he he he um revoked Oppenheimer's Q. clearance and uh he's also implicated in. these sort of MJ12 documents which I. don't necessarily want to mush in with. Brown. It has to be viewed through that. sort of passage material like limited. hangout lens but Gordon Gray is this. very interesting character. The point is. that the people who were sending physics.

down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill. conference and this is a conference in. 1957 that convened the top theoretical. physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, uh Fineman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce Dit, all. these people at the same time they were. funding in the back room this kind of. zany inventor Towns and Brown who is. performing these experiments in vacuum. chambers. And there's video of him. popping champagne where it's like why. are you popping champagne? Probably. because you got a successful experiment.

That was the second time he had he had. um tested this in a vacuum. So again. it's it's reduc it's eliminating this. sort of ionized wind effect before that. a year before that um in Paris at the. Montgier facilities he performed this in. a vacuum and this guy named Jacqu. Cornion was this he died in 2009 but. Towns and Brown's biographer has him on. record in a in a phone call that is. recorded saying the tests were very. tricky but in the end we got it to work. and he's on his deathbed and he's saying.

all this and you have an 120 page. 125page report for the Montgalier. project. And when Brown comes back to. the to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter, Linda, by a. guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs. rampant. I mean, there's so many. Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified at two. points higher than the Hbomb. He's. talking to this guy Wilbert Smith, who's. this um magnetics expert in in in Canada. about their experimentations via, you. know, with UFOs. And so he's the guy.

that picks up and he's head of. Washington National Labs and running. research and development for Vanavar. Bush at the time. And he's the guy who. picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we. we've got to take take this seriously. because you got it to work in a vacuum. The idea that they've kept all this. secret for all these years seems. impossible. to me. Yeah, sure. I mean, I I'm sure. it's not, but you know what I mean? from. my limited understanding of how things. work and secretive government projects.

that they could have a gravity. propulsion system in place for decades. Yeah, it seems crazy to me, but he had. something Brown had something called his. wounded prairie chicken routine, which. is basically showing people something. called it was basically the. electrohydrodnamic effect, which is not. the electrogravitic effect. So these are. two very different things. One is. coupling again electromagnetism and. gravity somehow or creating some gravity. shielding or whatever. You can do this. in a vacuum. And then the other thing is.

what you could see on YouTube videos. which is associated with towns and brown. where you have um basically these balsa. wood structures. You have tin foil at. the bottom and you have a copper wire at. the top. The copper wire is the positive. electrode. The tin foil is the negative. electrode. The copper wire is producing. ions which is creating thrust because. those neutral ions are bombarding the. wind which is creating thrust in in a. certain direction. So that is an. experiment that is 95% similar to the.

electrogravidic thing. It it wears the. mantle of being electrogravitic but it's. actually using this other principle that. you can just describe using normal. physics and you know Newton's laws. Well, what about material science? Like. what about the actual structure itself? You know, because th this is where it. gets really weird, right? The these nano. layers of whatever the material is. that's being used. What what was the was.

it bismouth? Bismouth. So, this this is. what's crazy. So, magnesium bismouth. shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas. Towns and Brown's Winterhaven proposal. in 1954 where he's describing these. electrogravitic effects because it's a. high K dialectric. It stores a lot of. electromagnetic charge, but it also. shows up. There's actually an interview. with Lewis Whitten, who's the father of. Ed Whitten, who's this master string. theorist that Eric Wein says is the. Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on. your show. Yeah. And um he Lewis Whitten.

says there was a guy named Townzen who. discovered an isotope of of of bismouth. that would repel instead of attracting. Who's named Townsen at that time? It's. clear he's talking about Towns and. Brown. If you actually look at Gary. Nolan's samples that he stud Gary Nolan. is, you know, a PhD at Stanford's a. tenure professor and um uh he he is, you. know, spun out multiple nine figure. companies in biotechnology. Really smart. guy. He runs the Soul Foundation. and. they're studying sort of, you know, non-human intelligence. He has these.

samples, various samples of different. crash materials that he's gotten from. Jacques Valle, who've you've had on as. the French godfather of ufology, who, you know, his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to. Jacques. Jacques, you know, uh, sends a. lot of his materials to Gary. One of the. materials is magnesium bismouth. And. this was apparently, I believe this was. the material that they found around the. Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismouth is a high K.

dialectric and it's it's over and over. again it's mentioned by Thomas Towns and. Brown. So you have this this weird thing. around the material that creates more. thrust via these anti-gravity. experiments is also showing up in UFO. lore. Do do you explore the possibility. the Roswell crash was not of from. another world? That's where it gets. weird, man, because that was early. That. was July of 1947, right? Like so the. bismouth thing like when you're talking. about the way this stuff is layered.

that's where it gets really weird right. that's where it's we it's it's layered. thinner than a you know it's like micron. layered like thinner than human hair is. I think the how put off quote on this. and I don't know the provenence on that. and I don't know you know per games. being played in this space I don't know. if that actually came from the Roswell. crash it was like if it didn't come from. the Roswell crash it like let's imagine. Is it possible to make that stuff today. and with those layers? Uh how put off.

would say no and it's probably beyond my. material science knowledge but. yeah I don't know people who are very. smart on this subject like Hal and Gary. who I speak to you know at a decent. frequency say no. Okay. So if they say. no maybe they're wrong. Maybe there is a. lab somewhere that can recreate it. But. could they recreate it at scale? Like. could they 3D print that to something. that you could actually get people. inside and fly around? And then could. that have been done in. 1947? That's where it gets super [ __ ].

weird. It gets super weird because you. you you know there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the the Hbomb, you know, we. had we had atomic energy. We we had a. lot of stuff back then. They split the. atom. There was some really incredible. advances. I don't believe we had. anti-gravity that I like if I track. Brown's stuff at the time, which I. think, you know, he was kind of the tip. of the spear on this stuff. He was using. these capacitor models and trying to get. that experimentally proven and and. sometimes being thwarted via like, you.

know, mainstream academic circles at. that time. Like the the the Chapel Hill. conference was much later and that's. where he's like kind of officially. proving this stuff in the US government. context in 1957. So I do not believe. that the Roswell crash is easily. explained by an anti- early antigra. Kelly Goddard who is a father of. American rocketry was doing rocket. testing at around Roswell at the time. like and so that's like total chemical. combustion. You had V2s at the time. where you know that was top of the line.

Opens up the door to the possibility of. back engineering. Absolutely. Which is. where it gets really weird. So now it's. we're not dealing with hidden science. We're not dealing with top secret. compartmentalized like, you know, need. to know. Everything's pushed away into. skunk works and wherever the [ __ ] it's. done. You're talking about something. that's not from here. Well, it's. interesting you say back engineering. In. 1949, there is a contract that anybody. can look up. I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright Patterson. It was right.

airfield at the time and Battel Memorial. Institute. And you have. eyes light up and you got shout out. Columbus, Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio, right? Yeah. And you have all these um. titanium alloys. And one of them is. called nitanol, which is a nickel. titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is. 1949. And so if you have, you know, um, Army intelligence officer, uh, you know, uh, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up.

the the crash material and he says that. it was like this memor shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind. of, you know, mess with it and it would. go back into its original form, right? It was like this kind of like tinfoily. like thing. And so Nitnanol was found at. a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it. was actually fully published. But you. have this contract between right p right. airfield and battel memorial institute. where you have nitanol in as one of the. metal metals that they're testing. Not.

only that 49 in 2012 they foy they used. the freedom of information act to figure. out that a guy named Elroy J center ej. center was one of the co-authors of that. paper. Elroy John center died I think in. 1991. Before that, he had told two MUN. UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and. Irene Scott, and they presented this at. MUON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy. was this metallurgist. He worked at. Patel. Again, he's been foyed as part of.

this paper. And he says, "I uh uh uh. worked on alien material and that there. were weird hieroglyphics on it and that. I had to I had to like, you know, I was. I was I was a c he was a chemist and so. he had to look at like um metal. impurities, but he was also uh uh meant. to decipher the the you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever." And so. I don't know, was Nitnol maybe just. inspired by the stuff that Marcel. recovered because obviously the rumors.

are that the Roswell crash wreckage. ended up at right airfield. Um or was. it, you know, this one thing and EJ. Center is at the center of it, no pun. intended, where he's foyed in 2012 and. he says he has these UF he's he's. looking at UFO material and he's on. record working at Patel. You can look. that up. Well, not only is there record. that the Roswell crash was brought to. right, but that it was brought in two. separate jets in case it crashed and. that Truman met them there. Yep. I don't.

I don't know if that's true. I need to. know that. I want to see a photo of the. [ __ ] hieroglyphs. Could you imagine. the glimpse at alien writing? Do you. think that would be amazing? Do you. think you have a better chance now than. ever at being cuz you interviewed Trump? Would Trump let you be the disclosure. guy? And I could be the water boy on the. side making sure that the dude if that's. possible. I don't think they tell Trump. [ __ ] I think they they would withhold.

that from him. Why would you tell that. guy? Yeah. I mean, that guy's a. substitute teacher as far as the. government's concerned. I mean, he's. doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of. like, you know, withholding funding for. Harvard and all these different things. and the border stuff and the ICE stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think are. is allowed to go on, but I think if you. get to the highest levels of. technological. sophistication, black budget stuff that. has been kept under wraps for [ __ ].

decades, you think they're going to tell. the guy who is the host of The. Apprentice? I don't think they tell him. cuz they think he's only in there for. four years. Probably not with two. caveats. One is his son Don Jr. interviewed him and said, "What do you. think happened at Roswell?" And he said, "Well, I think there's something very. interesting that might have happened.". Yeah. That's all he ever says. And he. say on your show, too. He doesn't spill. the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he. doesn't spill the beans because he. doesn't know where the beans are, right? Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking. gun. Like, he needs to know more. Well,

is that really his primary concern? He's. a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs. Like is, you know, he's had no. psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not. even interested in this concept. I think. about that sometimes with people on the. hill that I speak to where I'm like, can. you just like I'm giving you all this. info. Can you think outside the box? Figure it out. And they they don't. compute it. There's some there's a. person who like you're the archetype of. this who's like so fascinated by it and.

then there is a person who goes but I. got to pay taxes dude. Yeah. They have. to get reelected. They're super busy. Yeah. You you'd have to find someone. whose primary concern is that and that. bug has to bite you. You have to get. infected with UFO Lyme disease. If you. if you don't, you're not going to want. to release all this stuff. And I don't. think Trump is infected. I mean, I think. his even the way he describes these. things is very different than the way he. describes other things. Like he famously.

was talking to Steve. Hilton and um it was one of the few. times in history that a a sitting. president has mentioned the. military-industrial complex wanting to. go to war. These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview. and I remember thinking like, "Wow, that. is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox. News that there's factions in this. incredibly dense complex of corporations.

and defense contractors and there's. insane amounts of money involved and. these guys want to go to war." And he. was saying that in that interview and. I'm like, "This is I mean, this is what. Eisenhower said when he was leaving. office." Straight up. Yeah, straight up. There's a there's a straight line. between then and now. And it feels like. it's hitting this apex where we're. involved in it. It's like you had the. Civil War, you know, 1861. Now we have. like a deep state war going on where. it's like Tulsi's going in there as an.

outsider and this like light warrior and. she's being like redteamed and attacked. and she doesn't know who's on her side. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. It's It's pretty. wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets. done and you know and it's set up so. nothing gets done. But my point is that. Trump his response to that is an. informed response. Like there's there's. this military-industrial complex. These. people want to go to war. He doesn't. talk about this UAP thing that way. Like. I've seen some things crazy things. What.

is that? What are you saying? Like what? Be specific. You got handsome pilots. They you know crew cuts like you. They. look like good guys, nice guys. good. Americans. Like what what what do you. know? Didn't he say something on your. podcast about men from Mars or. something? He goes the the people from. Mars or something. I don't He It's hard. with him because he speaks in this sing. songongy oversimplified way and he rants. and he rants and he Well, he's got a. strong rant muscle, right? Because he. does these stadium tours where he goes.

to these enormous places and he. basically just works without a script. So, it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people like Tim Dylan is. the best comedian who has a rant muscle. So good. He just can rant. He just like. get a microphone in front of him in a. subject and he knows what to say. That. Trump has that muscle. He's developed. that muscle over all these years of. campaigning. And so it's really hard to. interview him because he just. essentially turns on that rampant muscle. when the mic's on and you got to like. interject like hold on. Okay, but what. are you saying? Like what do you know?

Like what do you know? Like will you. release this information? Like what what. if you found out that for sure we have. been visited and that we are in. possession of crashed UFOs that were not. made by China, they were not made by. Russia, they're not made by America, they're from another civilization that. we don't understand. Would you tell us? What What do you think he would say? There's a lot of information. I don't. know if I could release it. I don't know.

if they'd let me. you know, like I don't. know what holds it back. I want to know. if he's in an like Did you see Ages of. Disclosure? I didn't actually. You. should. It's really good. I I mean, I. don't know how you would see it right. now because it's not released yet and I. don't know what they're doing as far as. getting it released, but did you come. out believing more and more skeptical? What was your. both with like with all of it? I think. some some is [ __ ] some of it is. misinformation, some of it is they're.

releasing this slow trickle. Like if it. all is real, I think the strategy is to. slowly get us accustomed to the concept. Just the idea that we're not alone and. just get it in there. Okay, first step, first shot across the bow, 2017, New. York Times. New York Times says not of. this world. Oh my god. You know, you see. the the pictures of the gimbal and the. go fast and you're like, "Okay, all. right. Now we're talking." But that's.

eight [ __ ] years ago, right? Nothing. real significant in eight years. And so. then you have sightings, you have these, you know, different pilots. Commander. Fraver, he comes out, does podcasts, you. have Ryan Graves, he comes down, does. podcasts, you know, you have Lou. Alzando, everybody's talking, no one's. showing you [ __ ] Yeah. Fowler, who you. had on your show, Fowler. What did you. think of him? I thought that I He's.

They've got to show data. They have on. their website like a container for the. data. They haven't populated it yet. I. want to see the data and I want to see a. scientist who they don't have to be a. debunker or a skeptic, but they have to. kind of go in being like, I don't know. what UFOs are. Like, I don't know. anything about this stuff. And like. vetting it. Mhm. Now, being as deep as I. am in UFO research where like I know. there's a nuclear connection, there's a. great book by a guy named Robert. Hastings called UFOs and nukes and it's.

like 600 pages and it is 167 Qcle. cleared ICBM security personnel, radar. operators, employees at nuclear bases. where they're saying they see tic tacs, orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying. around our nuclear sites often disarming. the nukes. And so it's always tough to. answer that question where you're like, "What do you think of Skywatcher?" I'm. like, "If I don't have that ontology. where like UFOs are showing up around. nukes constantly, which I I'm deep in. this and they they do they show up all. around the world. There's a a town in.

Japan called Eno, which is next to the. Fukushima Prefecture. Fukushima is. famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s that have a. it has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the. '90s that they built. Everybody there is. obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a. documentary in 2020 2022 because they. are obsessed with U with UFOs. They're. geomagnetic anomalies they found all. over this mountain. Uh Senori there and. there are UFO researchers there and like. everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bareroce, Argentina, 1995. Uh uh you.

have a commercial they they're famous. for again civilian nuclear grid uh uh. commercial pilot at Aerolinus Argentinis. or whatever. Famous UFO sighting it it. shuts down the power at the airport and. the thing has to the the the plane can't. land and then it goes around in a circle. and there are people on the on the. flight who have been interviewed. It's. on a you know YouTube video. It's pretty. simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell. 1947 the largest stockpile of American. nuclear weapons to date at that time.

1947. So there are all these. declassified documents. In 1949 there. was an emergency meeting declassified. air force document document that is. verified between air force office of. special investigations army counter. intelligence army CIC FBI office of. naval intelligence. All these guys are. emergency meeting because they're. freaked out at how much UFOs are showing. up around nuclear sites. across the US. In 1952, there's a Look magazine article. where Captain Edward J. Rupelt, who's.

kind of marginalized pre Blue Book. really taking off with Jaylen Heinik, who I think was basically a disinfo. agent, where he I do. Yeah. And he's. claimed to have like gotten better and. kind of be, you know, like like I he. admitted his part in the cover up, but. then I think he kept going on with some. some [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. So there's so. so if you don't have that ontology, there's even there's um Vasilei Alexev. is a a Russian general and in a German. magazine from 2000 he's interviewed and.

he talks about how UFOs show up at the. forefront of human ingenuity and. advancement. And when we transport. certain material, the UFOs show up. In. chapter nine of the invisible college by. Jacqu Valet, he talks about the UFOs. being this sort of autonomous control. system and when we you know it's like a. node lights up like when we engage in. super advanced research or something. He. talks about ways to interfere with the. control system but that are very.

dangerous. So if you don't have that. ontology like yeah me saying like these. dudes are out with their mobile. construction unit like in the desert. like you know getting stuff to show up. you're going to be like that's a [ __ ]. myar balloon. I'm sorry but because you. if you have that if you accept that data. set and don't just dismiss it kind of. firsthand. I do think they can get stuff. to show up. What they're getting to show. up I don't know. Can they get it to. land? I don't know. There, you know, I. think so. Can you explain how they're. getting the stuff to show up? What. signals are they putting out there that.

represent something to these supposedly. something to these UAPs? Unfortunately, they kind of blackbox it. And so I have. to assume it's either nuclear. They do. say that they have a dog whistle, which. is a certain frequency. There is a. frequency floating around online that. somebody claims to have docked. That. might be their thing, but I don't want. to say that that's definitely their. thing. So there are but the idea is they. call them they use something to send a. signal out there and then these crafts. respond. Is it a 100% of the time? They.

say that the dog whistle works 100% of. the time and they have a combination of. mechanical means of attracting UFOs and. of this is really weird but humans. trying to call in the UFOs. I've heard. that before. Right. Yeah. C5 is sort of. post that on our show I don't think but. is that what you're talking about? I. don't want to make it. That might be. Yeah. 2.5K. Yeah. What do you not want. to make? I don't know. Do you want me to. show this or not? I don't know if he's. saying it's bad. I don't want to give. it. No, I'm not saying it's bad. I don't. think Seems like it's on fine. I don't.

think I don't think it on their own. I. don't think Skywatcher would like say. that that's definitely uh you know. endorse that as their thing, but because. they kind of blackbox it. But that could. be that could be real. So, what it's. saying um want to know how to make the. dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's. how. Super easy. What's his signal? Um. 7.83 hertz carrier via modulated 100. hertz bass tone human resonance. Do you. understand any of this? Me? Yeah. Do you. know what they're saying? Well, I guess. human resonance is the kind of, you.

know, electromagnetic frequency of the. earth itself. And so I I don't know what. that means. Modulated via What is this. 528 hertz harmonic spiritual frequency? What is that? That's the lowest tone. I. don't know. Is that what it is, Jamie? I. I just know the numbers. So like uh when. you get up to 17k that's like that's a. high that's a real high pitch like oh. and the high numbers like that are low. Yeah. And then low is oh so it's just a. that's th00and and then not thousand. So. 20 hertz is as low as you can hear. That's like a low bass sound. So I guess. there's being generated out of some sort.

of machine which doesn't say here on. what you need to generate it but I don't. know if you just played on a piano or. anything you know. Interesting. And then. organic 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 second. like creature calls giving you it a. unique signature. Huh. I don't know where he would get. this. There used to be a There's so many cooks. out there. There are a lot. Boy, there's. so many cooks. There's so many cooks. Cooks and grifters. It's infiltrated. It's every So my my contrarian take.

about UFOs is there are so many cooks. and grifters, but there are more people. with ulterior motives who are telling. partial truths than full cooks and. grifters. And that makes it so. complicated because you're like you're. bad vibes and you like are doing some. controlled opposition thing, but like I. have to listen to you because you have. some interesting info. Right. That's the. problem. That's when you're talking I've. had conversations with people like that. where I'm talking to them I'm like I. think you're at least partially full of.

[ __ ] but like keep going. Yeah. Tell me. more. Yeah. Totally. You're like I know. there's some stuff and then I know. there's some [ __ ] you're giving me. and you want to see if I'll tell. somebody else that [ __ ] and then. you'll track it and like Right. Right. It's this weird game. Well, the in the. age of disclosure, one of the things. they go into is that if these programs. have been running and if they have been. batch back engineering crafts that are. not of this world, there's a problem. with lying to Congress because.

misappropriation of funds. So, anybody. who did that is going to jail. So, what. they're calling for is mass amnesty. They're calling to say, "Hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these. people that were involved in this. program, otherwise we're never going to. learn anything." And then there's the. problem with corporations. So, if you. give this to Loheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about. that? Well, hey, you [ __ ] how. come you didn't clue us? So, then they. want to sue. So, then they sue the. federal government for, you know,

whatever, interfering with competition. I Yes. So, there are all those issues. And right now the UAP Disclosure Act is. up again. It was killed by a guy named. Mike Turner who has a bunch of. aerospace. The [ __ ] Mike. Mike, come on. Mike Turner. Come on, Mike. He's out. now. He And guess what? He represented. Dayton, Ohio, where Wright Patterson Air. Force Base is. Jamie. Sorry, Jamie. Jamie gets so excited when. you bring up Battel and all the Ohio.

[ __ ] We've gone deep. I mean, Battel is. very implicated in all this stuff. Yeah. from the ' 40s. from the ' 40s. The all. domain anomalies uh uh resolution. office, which is like the authoritative. office that is I think the modern blue. book that's you know basically saying. don't look here like this is all. [ __ ] or whatever. It's run by a guy. named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these. like atomic connections. He like worked. at Oakidge for God's sakes. hit the guy. that formed uh. Arrow upon whose recommendation Arrow.

was formed is a guy named Ed Moltry who. is under secretary of defense for. intelligence and he was on Battel's. board and he scrubbed that from his. LinkedIn and my good friend UAP Gerb who. is an amazing channel he's super deep. UFO researcher showed that this was it. was on his resume and then he recommends. this that arrow forms it's like it's a. total conflict of interest. It's insane. It's insane. Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to. disclosure like legal bottlenecks. Yes.

Like Yeah. Especially the. misappropriation of funds. I mean I mean. how much money was involved when you're. you must be talking about billions and. billions and billions of dollars if all. these programs are real. So if they've. been lying to Congress, it's on the. order. It has to be on and it's funny. A. lot of modern disclosure talks about OAP. and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to. 2012 kind of under the opice of Harry. Reid, right? And that budget was $22. million. A single F-35 cost four times.

that. The B2 costs like $2 billion. Like. give me a break. The nature of reality. you're going to spend $22 million on. So, it's funny how the the whole. conversation is on this like clearly. this thing to like get more civilian. eyes on the issue, maybe see what they. can figure out or whatever. The core. program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core. program, it's on the order of that. speech that you've often cited that. Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th,

2001, where he said $2 trillion was. missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's. [ __ ] like that. or this woman named. Katherine Austin Fitz who was just on. Tucker Carlson who is um at Housing and. Urban Development under uh George Bush. 41 where she's talking about underground. tunnel systems and billions of dollars. missing in the budget. It is not this. little 1020 million. She's talking about. a $21 trillion breakaway civilization. that's been developed. Yeah. It's what?

Yeah. And she says it at a moment. First. of all, she's citing Richard Dolan who. Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO. researcher. half that interview and. Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard. Dolan is. So it's this funny thing and. then she go and then he's like where are. the funds being used and she goes space. and it's like the where it's not being. used at SpaceX is supposed to be the tip. of the spear right SpaceX Blue Origin. So like what do you mean space? Like. SpaceX is basically like those [ __ ]. go-karts that people send down hills. with no engines, right? You know what I.

mean? Like what are those things called? You know those things when they have. races where people they they make their. own little down the hill derby. Oh, no. Not the Yeah. Yeah. Soap boxes. A little. soap boxes. Yeah. That's what it's like. Yeah. That's what SpaceX is. Exactly. If. we have any of this [ __ ] that's what. SpaceX is. It's using really ancient. technology to achieve these results. It's business. It's And I think Elon's. amazing. He's single-handedly. resuscitated NASA. But it is a it is an.

earthbased space company. I think he. keeps stuff secret. He does. He. absolutely keeps stuff secret. When he. tells me there's no evidence of aliens, like there's something about it that. just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm. like, "Okay." So, okay. I looking at. him. Uh, yeah. Nothing. Yeah. You don't. think nothing? I'll pop something. I. just want to see if Jesse's heard of. this before. I found stumbled down this. one. You guys were talking about uh some. stealth project. This is an article from.

Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who. wrote it. He's written a bunch of. articles about the black budget back. then and it's talking about a guy named. Steve Douglas who through monitoring. like uh the um sorry communications. He. heard different pilots talking about. what probably is the TR3 Black Manta. and then he says he's got a picture of. it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. And it's nothing even close comes up to. it. But this says he had a video of it,

a picture. I'm assuming some people have. seen it cuz it talks about it. Then it. goes into talking more and more about. how he how he did this. He says he's got. files of them talking about all sorts of. different planes at night that you were. mentioning the Mach 6 Aura when I was. like when you said that is when I found. this on here. That's even I I haven't. seen it. There's obviously tons of. rumors about the TR3A and the TR3B. The. Belgian wave occurred around this time. I think it was like late 80s, early 90s.

I think a lot of the triangle craft that. people see are human because it's just. it's a direct Phoenix Light stuff like. cuz a lot of people saw it during the. Phoenix Lights. They saw the triangle. craft. Kurt Russell was actually flying. his plane saw the Phoenix Light. This is. the one I brought up the other day that. they said they think was in Desert Storm. and they just don't really have any. proof online today. So the TR3B is the. this looks like the triangle thing that. everybody's seen. Yeah, look what is the. [ __ ] center of it. What is that all. about? Well, this is just probably.

someone made, you know, a photo trying. to describe it, but the bottom of it is. what everybody says, you know, so the. the TR3 series that was built by. Northrep, I believe. Is that right? Like. Aurora was locked and that was if you. confirm that look like they No one knows. this is like no one has any proof of. these even existing. All the talk online. is back into the '9s of just like, do. these exist? We probably have them. No. one knows for sure. So, here's a weird. Okay, so I think it's this is North I. think TR3 the TR3 series is Northrep.

So, the connection between Northrup and. Towns and Brown is in the mid60s Towns. and Brown is being funded by a guy named. Floyd Odlam. Floyd Odlam is the the. majority owner of Northrup pre- merger. with Grumman. And so Towns and Brown is. doing these experiments at Guidance. Technologies. His outfit in Santa. Monica. This was all this investment was. inspired by Edward Teller seeing his. experiment and freaking out. He's doing. these experiments. Bill Leers is. actually has an office across the. street. They're doing all sorts of cool.

innovative stuff. He does a series of. presentations. Curtis Lame for the Rand. Corporation for all sorts of kind of, you know, head honchos when it comes to. American military. In. 1967 uh uh guidance technology shuts. down with no explanation. They say you. know our results all failed. But after a. bunch of the a series of these highle. meetings that was at the end of 1967 3. months later at the beginning of. 1968 Northrup publishes a paper called.

electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow. or in supersonic flow and it is. basically paying homage to. electrohydrodnamics and towns and browns. work. It is exactly part and parcel. towns and browns work. Uh they then do a. press release at the time. They retract. the press release because they are. embarrassed. Then later Bill Scott at. Aviation Week in I think 1992 says the. the B2 surfs its own wave using the. Biffield Brown effect. There's a guy.

who's known as the Doyen of uh uh. British aviation journalism. His name is. Bill Gunston and he um in in uh Air. International magazine is doing a survey. level overview of all aero engine tech. since World War II. And he says uh I am. I'm familiar with the rud rudiments of. Thomas Towns and Brown's work, but I. don't want to end up in the Tower of. London. So, I will refrain from talking. about millions of volts charged positive.

to millions of volts charged negative on. the trailing edge of the wing of the B2. stealth bomber. Yes. And what is the. Tower of London? What's that reference. to? He's just saying I don't want to end. up in jail. Tower of London is probably. where Jack the Ripper ended up or I. don't think it was like in, you know, but he's like, "Don't get out of my ass. Surfs its own wave." Surfs its own wave. So if you put that electro aerodynamics. and supersonic flow paper which is. available you could put that into chat. GBT and how it could be like how can. this confer an advantage to an airframe.

for you know yeah you can do that and do. that I'll tell you what it's do yeah. it's wild it's wild it'll give you a. bunch of answers own so that's the paper. yeah how do I download it then. electroeramics. so my point if the T if the TR3A and B. are real. Like the B2, the B2 is still. so locked down. We sell F-35s to allied. nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody,

even including Allied nations. The the. the the ticket price is 2 billion. They. have a new version of the B2 that's, you. know, I think like 700 million or. whatever. They weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's. pretty crazy. Wow. So what would they be doing? Like how. would it be surfing its own wave? Like. what what advantage would that confer? If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say. it doesn't split the airflow as much and.

so you get more lift and there's reduced. drag. The the shock wave is reduced. The. electric fields somehow interact with. the particles at the boundary layer. where the the frame hits the air. And so. there are a bunch of theoretical things. that are honestly probably a little. above my pay grade, but that even, you. know, conventional AI will tell you that. it will do as far as being helped. Guntohead, how far do you think they've. gotten this stuff, man? I mean, this stuff was being this. was like 80s and they were probably. maybe building in the early 80s or maybe.

late 70s. So definitely way farther than. that, you So, do you do you entertain. the possibility that this thing that. Lazar talked about that we see on the. desk right there, the sport model, do. you think that that was ours? That feels. really hard for me to to to say in good. faith because that was around the time. that the BT was just being unveiled. Also, no seams like it's 3D printed. Totally. Element 113 or 115 rather and. this generator that nobody understands.

Yeah, I I'm de I think that is more of. the variety of something that would. crash in the New Mexico desert. That is, and this is where it gets weird because. everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the. anti-gravity, including Lazar. Like he. said when he saw the sticker on it, there was American flag sticker on the. sport model. He's like, "Oh, I get it. This these are ours." Yep. That's why. people keep seeing them. And then as he. starts examining these things, he's.

like, "No." Yep. This is not ours. Like, "What the [ __ ] is this? This is meant. for 3ft tall things. There's no controls. in this." Like, what is this? If reality. has a governor on it, and we're we're in. weird territory. We're just talking. about AI and all this stuff is just. getting so weird. Quantum computing. If. reality has a governor on it, like a. like a governor on a motor, you take the. governor off. Do you get is it like a. hydra where you cut the head off and you. get five in its place or do you get one. neat solution? You don't get one neat. solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of.

things. And so at the time that like the. government's kind of unraveling and all. these we have all these transparency. initiatives or whatever and you get. these secret science lineages and then. our our apertures are people are waking. up to greater realities. the fact that. the pandemic could even happen like is. sort of so crazy and then it makes you. question like what what about the Gulf. of Tonk and USS Maine and all these. things. I think all of this stuff is. coming out at the same time and it's not. necessarily this neat solution where the. anti-gravity just you know accounts for.

the UFOs and the aliens and the UFOs and. nukes stuff which was happening since. the 40s where it's like I don't I don't. know how I I can't explain that via. anti-gravity experiments. and then there's a question of how many. how many different civilizations visit. us how many different things how many. different versions of these things are. there if this is like a testing ground. Is it is this open to the general public. of space? Al also not zero or one.

Probably zero or 100. It's probably a. zoo of things, right? It's that's the. most likely thing. That was what was. interesting about your episode that you. did with Fowler where they were. documenting the different shapes and I'm. like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer in this. How come you don't have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes. Totally. You have a tic tac. You have a. Tetris or whatever the [ __ ] it is. Uh-huh. Where's the one that everybody. sees? The iconic Yeah. Billy Meyers. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. You. know, it is weird. Also, do you work for.

the CIA? I do not. I do not work for the. CIA. Do you have to answer if I ask you? Is it like you remember those movies. where you ask a guy if they're an. undercover cop? You ask them if they're. a cop, they have to tell you. People. really used to believe that, but it's. just a fictional tool. They don't really. have to tell you that they're undercover. cops. They don't have to tell you. But. there is I think there's like 1 22. triple 3 or whatever where like if. you're CIA you can't be [ __ ] with. domestic stuff which I think they break. all the [ __ ] time. So I don't think. that's a reason. They probably passed.

laws that bypassed that a long time ago. for sure. Well I Yeah. I mean I think. they also killed JFK. This is the. Baineson Lab video. There you go. What's. really crazy is that looks remarkably. similar to the design that Lazar said. the generator looks like that's inside. the UFO. Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different. gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsen Brown was a poor. theorist, but he wrote a paper called. the structure of space while he was at. Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Towns and Brown started working at. Martin Vega the year that skunk works.

formed, which I think is very. interesting. Um, and he says in. structure of space there are two forms. of gravity. He says there are gravity. wells and gravity hills. And he talk he. talks about how the Yeah, it's crazy. He. talks about the protons um in an atom. outweighing the electrons. And so you. get this weak positive charge for all ma. matter that creates uh a gravity well. like this inward pull. But in fact, it's. sort of this electromagnetic derivative. or whatever in his model. And again, I.

would not overindex on his theory. I. think there's tons of proof that he just. figured out this topological physics. effect and other people figured out. theory. Maybe even they just have like. locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was. on your show and talked about extended. electronamics. Hal Putoff's probably the. top tip of the spear as far as a lot of. theory around this exotic stuff. Sunny. White, you know, other people like that. But um yeah, it is interesting that you. both of these guys had two versions of. gravity. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. And the the Lazar.

stuff to me, it's if a guy's going to be. a liar like that, he's going to tell a. lot of lies, right? It's not going to be. just one lie from ' 89. Yeah. You know. what I mean? That you basically say the. same version of forever. Yeah. I mean. the the the other weird thing in that. story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Valle's book, he talks about. because he's not a believer in Lazar. He. talks about Lazar being forced to drink. a liquid. And Lazar even talks about. this openly that he was forced to to.

drink a liquid and it tastes like pine. or something and it and it causes memory. lapses in certain cases. So that's also. a weird factor. But there is so much I. think my buddy Luigi I also have a good. friend named Chris Ramsey who has an. amazing UFO channel called Area 52 and. he's met Lazar through Luigi and I don't. want to blow up their spot but they've. given me a lot of ammo as far as just. Lazar being at Area 51 S4 and so it's. it's so fascinating. So they gave him.

this liquid to kill his memory. That's. the idea behind it. I don't know if he. knew the intent. it was just drink this. or whatever. And then he said that it. caused at least in the Valle readout he. says that it caused memory lapses is the. quote in messengers of deception. H but here's this where it gets so. confusing. If you have MK Ultra was. super widespread. It was deleted you. know the church committee or whatever. but like it was it was a very widespread. program. What would be one of the number. one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra?

It wouldn't necessarily be to trick. somebody into view saying that they saw. a flying saucer. It would be around the. flying saucer program to [ __ ] with the. person's memory so that they couldn't. read certain things out, right? So, it's. just this again, it's hard to say. Well, then there's also weird stuff like the. large folder that was on religion. Yes. You know, like how much of that is just. misinformation. I think a lot of that. was passage material cuz it's similar to. passage material. What does that mean? It's basically stuff given to somebody.

where it's like certain provably false. things. You can track where the provably. false stuff goes or whatever. It's also. a litmus test to see if they'll believe. it. It's like spooky intel [ __ ] And in. in 79, there's a guy named Rick Dodie. who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz. insane. Basically, he views this. vertically taking off and landing exotic. craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where. there are a lot of interesting things, you know, seen. And um he is is shown.

similar things along with Linda Molton. How is taken uh in front of a two-way. mirror and Rick Dodie, this Air Force. Office of Special Investigations agent. who we know is acting in bad faith at. that time. he's even come out and. admitted this shows her this thing. called Project Garnett and it is oddly. similar around accelerated evolution to. the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's. extremely compartmentalized, why at the. same time give the person this like.

onlogical model of reality while you're. compartmentalizing it? Doesn't make. sense. So, and this is what I love about. Lazar. Lazar will admit that like he's. like I think a lot of that stuff could. have been fake and [ __ ] and I only. am relaying what I saw when with regards. to the craft and I don't take any of. that stuff fully at face value. So it. was there's project Galileo, there's. time, there's looking glass, you know, there are these projects that were super. interesting and spooky and I think. worthy of engagement with like all these. weird limited hangouts are. But do any.

of these people that supposedly had had. contact with extraterrestrial entities. or interdimensional or whatever they. are, do any of these people recall a. conversation where they warn us about. AI? That's such a great question. I don't. think so. I don't think so either. It's. almost always nuclear. That seems crazy. Well, maybe that seems crazy that there. there's no discussion about you are on.

the verge of something truly. spectacular. Maybe AI is their control. system. Maybe they are AI. Maybe they. are AI. Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe. biological. limitations need to be traversed and the. best way to traverse them is to. eliminate biology. We are now. experimenting with computational. biology. You can use things like like. this neuroscientist Carl Fristen, the. free energy princ there's this company. called Cortical Labs and I I think they. might play up some of their results, but. they use these microelerode uh plate. arrays and they program like rat.

cultured rat neurons to do basic. computational rat uh tasks. And so like. if that's the super base level, right? Like we're just creating the like. transistors for this like new model of. computation. But if you go way out into. the future. You have anatomical. compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and. you know, these things could be drone. avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their. Earth homeostasis kit that they've. deployed. They're just Vonoyman. replicator probes meant to, you know,

oversee the Earth. And, you know, a. little node lights up when we create. nuclear or like an AI thing or like. Well, it's also like Basula, you know, Diana Basulka. She she thinks they're. donations. That's what she says. Yeah. They're called donation sites and yeah. like which is like if you want. accelerated evolution like hey wouldn't. it be cool if you guys made this leave. the wheel you know just look over here. leave this leave that it kind of I mean. that's the way to get someone to think. outside the box plant the seed yeah you.

just you you don't want to wait for. these morons to figure out how to make. this if you were trying to accelerate. technological evolution in North. Sentinel Island which has no contact. with humans what would you you might. just airdrop a computer. Figure it out. You know, they'd be like, "A computer? This is start with a lighter." Sure. I. don't think they have fun. Yeah. Yeah. Computer might be a little advanced. Yeah. But yeah, you would give them some. stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure. out how to make that stuff and give them. the raw materials to make that stuff. Totally. Especially if you like you have.

some complex alloy like this bismouth, whatever the hell it is with layered. like find that, figure that out. Can you. make it like you get your best. scientists and you compartmentalize it? You do it over decades because you. really can't open it up. And this is one. of the things that Lazar said that he. had deep frustration about while working. at S4 is that you can't do science like. that where everything's. compartmentalized. You need to be able. to open it up to collaboration. And. there was you couldn't collaborate. You. weren't allowed to. Yeah. So it's like.

we're not going to get anywhere. Okay. We're going to bring in new people, you. know? We're going to bring in a new guy. See if this new genius can Hey, what do. you think of this? It's like what is it? You tell me. That could be a part of. what's happening with disclosure where. if you have cold war war era secrecy. It's like if we're ahead of Russia and. China, clamp down. We like can't let. them know anything, right? But then all. of a sudden maybe they play catch-up. And then all of a sudden maybe you have. this archaic cargo cult system that. doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer.

requests where you have restricted data. covering, you know, uh material found by. specific aerospace corporations that. aren't even our best and brightest when. it comes to our defense primes anymore. or whatever. And you're you're at the. top of the national security pie and. you're like, "Holy [ __ ] like we need to. update this stuff. So, we need to. broaden the surface area without giving. away the crown jewels. We need some. disclosure on these things. You can't It. is maladaptive from a national security. standpoint to have some STEM student in. Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even.

think this [ __ ] is real. Right. Right. Right. And then you're dealing with. China where they've got it completely. opened up and they're like, "Make this. completely opened up." And like I don't. know if you've read there's a um great. uh Chinese science fiction novel called. The Three Body Problem. Great show on. Netflix, too. It's amazing. and the the. CCP will show up at your door and say. come work for us. You are working here. and that's not really the way we do. things. So the way we do things is like. you get the stuff out in these kind of. partial limited hangouts. You go compete.

like just like the AI stuff, you know, right? It's like see what happens over. there. If you leak it, they'll just. [ __ ] kill you. Exactly. You're not. gonna leak it. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's. to me the the question of civilization. Are we alone? It is the question and I. don't think we are. Yeah, that's my my. my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do. think we are. You know, I agree. I just. But what about the numbers? Just the.

sheer numbers like it doesn't make any. sense that this is so unique that we in. this one very tiny planet. It's spinning. around a not so special star. AAM's. razor is we are not alone. You have the. Firmeny paradox. You have the Drake. equation. You have all these sort of. rationalist ways of arguing that. But. also look at there's a great book called. The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman. And he talks about how like at any given. time 50% of you know received knowledge.

like our our physical model of the. universe is wrong. So you can say those. things are showing up in the sky that is. wrong because physics but historically. you would have been wrong. Like that's. crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so. if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern. enlightenment history is a detour from. the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's or or maybe a better. example is medieval Christianity with. St. Thomas Aquinas or just read the New.

Testament like a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons, you know, that's kind of the passport to Meonia, Dina, American cosmic thesis. Like this. stuff has been going on forever. You. look at the the Davas and you know in in. Hindu culture or the jin in in Islamic. culture like we are outnumbered in our. modern you know enlightenment rational. skeptic epistemology. Yeah we really. are. And how many depictions from the. past of flying things? Ezekiel from the.

Bible vimmanas all these different like. what are they saying? What are these. things? Like what do you think that. stuff is? Like what is it? Yeah. You. know, and but then again, you and I, neither one of us have had an. experience. So, we're we're just like. [ __ ] seeing in the wind. I've seen a. UFO. But what have you seen? I've seen a. few. But, um, really? Yeah. Yeah. How. have you been so lucky? I don't know. I. don't know. And because they know there. like, who knows? There are UFO.

researchers that like don't like to talk. about this, but I think the move is just. be honest. Like, I've seen the thing and. I don't know what to say. Uh, I was in. Laurel Canyon where I used to live and. um I saw a thing that looked like a. [ __ ] school bus. It looked like like. no visible propulsion. This like sort of. low humming noise or whatever. It was. maybe 50 60 70 ft high like above the. tree right above the treetops. Uh the. the the trippiest part of the experience. and why this is it's just so weird is I.

was with um this woman I was kind of. dating at the time and we were taking a. walk in Laurel Canyon and uh she was. like uh are you into aliens? I was like. actually I kind of am into I was kind of. interested in that topic and and then I. think I joked back I was like I kind of. want to meet an alien and she was like. me too. And then she goes uh you'll. you'll meet them when you're when you. stop looking for them. Oh that [ __ ] is. an alien. And then as we're as we're this is the. weirdest part of the whole story. As.

we're walking, it's like sunset in. Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a. metal detector who's like looking for. something. It's like why are you looking. for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon. or whatever. So like that felt like this. weird like you know like mirroring of. our conversation. I again I have no. [ __ ] idea. Then we walk in into this. little clearing and we see this like. school bus thing like just go right over. the tree. What color was it? It was. silver metallic. like an Airstream trailer. Like an air.

like an Airstream ta trailer. Yeah, I. can send you guys a video. I went on. Chris Ramsey's podcast. I described it. and I was sent a video and for all I. know, this video is [ __ ] fake, by the. way. But it was the thing that looked. most like what I saw because it's. doesn't match up with like the saucer, you know, triangle thing. Yeah. And I. don't know, I am almost more inclined to. say discount my own thing over like the. Qcle cleared guys who've like seen these. things at new. What was it in the sky. for? It was in the sky for like a a few.

seconds because we couldn't even see. past the clearing or whatever. She said. she saw it go over the trees and then. descend down into the distance. I did. not see that. Huh. And like you're. talking Laurel Canyon has is like mostly. residential. So like like where did it. descend? Right. Right. I don't know. So, what else have you. seen? You said you saw more than one. thing. Yeah. So, another time I was. actually with a friend who invests like. with me and Peter and is like the most. rational guy you'll ever meet. Like he's.

uh he's a fan of like Nam Chosky and. like David Hume like like he is a modern. rationalist atheist skeptic. And uh we. went surfing that day. We were back at. his place. I was super into holotropic. breath work at the time which I I love. And uh we were doing holographic breath. work. Five minutes in, we both see these. like metallic looking orbs. This was. this time super high up into in the sky. like uh probably, you know, higher than. what you would definitely higher than a.

drone. And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me. Similar to like. the typical like orb that, you know, a. lot of people sort of describe like the. Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot. of these sightings. And um he looks at. me and he I go like, "What the [ __ ] is. that?" He goes, "Dude, I think that's. like some secret black locked tech or. whatever." And then I don't even say. anything. Two seconds goes by and then. he looks at me and he goes, "Dude, that's not [ __ ] from here." He's. like, "That's not Lockheed. Like I don't.

know what that is." Do you entertain the. possibility there states of. consciousness that you could achieve. where these things become visible? Absolutely. And you've had Rick Straman. on. He talks, you know, DMT, the spirit. molecule. He talks about DMT as like. night vision or like like it's like a. it's like goggles or a window, you know, it's like Aldis Huxley, the doors of. your perception. Are you superimposing a. hallucination onto reality or are you. just seeing? We see a limited part of. the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We.

see between 400 and 700 nanometers. Our. audio range, you know, there's a certain. decel limit, right? So, like when you. take a substance like that, are you. seeing things that are in objective. reality, but we just don't have access. to them? It's it's actually adaptive for. us not to have access to them in our. waking reality. And so, it's this. interesting philosophical question. I. don't know the answer to it, right? Would we be would we even be able to. function if we had access to that? Probably not. Probably not. No, it is.

There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's. a cognitive psychologist and he talks. about it's like why don't we see. electromagnetic waves themselves like. why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies. it's we need to iconize everything we. see just like a you know desktop. computer you know like why do you see. red because oh boom red blood got to run. you know whatever and then they hack. that with notifications on social media. but the point is we are seeing. inherently a collapsed condensed version. of reality we aren't seeing the thing. itself.

Yeah. And so it ends up in these. onlogical loops where like yeah, some. rationalist skeptic can be like you're. you're lying. That's it ends up in this. not even wrong category of like I can't. say that what I just said is. definitively true as far as it being a. window into some other realm. But. neither the skeptic we just live in the. age of disenchantment where you say. don't trust your eyes, right? And. they're that's as much faith-based dogma. as what I'm saying. So who knows? And. that's why I rest when I talk about this.

stuff on the show, I rest more on the. nuclear cases because it fits to our. modern epistemology more, right? But. it's not to say you should discount. these, you know, people's experiences. where they do, you know, maybe they're. in a peak state of consciousness and. they experience a thing. Maybe that. thing is real either. There might be. multiple different types of things that. come by. And the the nuclear one is a. weird one. I mean, if you were from. another planet or some other place and. you recognized an emerging civilization. that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be. like, "Hey [ __ ] slow down. Hit the.

break, son." You know, you would freak. out unquestionably. You know, that's why. we named the the rooms at the Comedy. Mothership, Fat Man and Little Boy, because that's when they started showing. up. That's when we got a lot of. sightings was post post the bombs. Totally. And I love I love the. mothership, by the way. It's amazing. And I love going and seeing how UFO the. like, you know, in preparation for this, I've had a couple friends be like, "Man, Joe Joe's like anti-UFO though." And I'm. like, "No, he's just frustrated with.

disclosure. Go to the mothership. The. whole [ __ ] thing is getting so. anybody say I'm anti UFO. There's. [ __ ] UFOs everywhere. It's one of the. desk. There's one behind me. I know. That's so sad. And you broke the biggest. UFO story of all time. Like it's You've. done more for disclosure than anybody in. my opinion." Well, I'm not anti-UFO, but. I'm I'm allergic to [ __ ] And this. stuff, some of it smells like [ __ ]. which is I would be remiss if we didn't. talk about those little mummies in Peru. Yeah, dude. What do you think is going.

on there? They break my brain. They were. They are They are This was the most. frustrating case I've ever had to deal. with. And I wish I could give you a. definitive these things are definitely. dead aliens. I cannot say that. definitively at all. I do think there's. a lot of reason to believe that they are. forensically organisms. They are re. they're organisms that if they're not. they're incredible works of art. If. they're not they are the most. sophisticated hoax ever that that. basically tricked forensic experts from.

uh John McDow who run who just won the. the greatest award in forensics you. could win or whatever. um the grandall. award uh who is the president of the. American Forensics uh uh scientific. association or whatever in the US. Jim. Kur Caruso who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner uh in Denver. Uh. the equivalent of McDow is a guy named. Dr. David Ruiz. So he's the Peruvian. head of their forensics association and. the head of the Mexican Navy forensics.

This guy named Dr. Jose Sal. All of. these guys have seen so I think we're. kind of getting ahead of ourselves. Let's explain to people this so they can. be standalone cuz a lot of people like. what the [ __ ] are they talking about? There are these very small mummified. looking things that are in Peru that. seem to look exactly like. a similar kind of thing to a human being. but varies enough that you know it's not.

us. And it has more ribs. it is more. spinal columns or more more um more. discs. This is what they look like. And. there's X-rays of them. And that's where. it gets really weird. And they're. tridactyl, right? So they have three. fingers and three toes. Yep. And the So. these were discovered in 2015 in a cave. uh by a guy named Leandro, who goes by. Mario. And this is one of the headaches. about the case is like we don't have. good provenence on it. So he is this. werro uh gravedigger guy. And they were.

found in dietmacous earth. So there's. actually an idea that they might not. even be mummies. Dietimmacous earth is a. desicant. And so they were dried out and. a lot of the organs are actually still. inside the the the bodies. And there are. three different types. There are S types. which are these little winged creatures. There are J types. The J types are. probably they were most popularized in. this Mexican congress where these things. were outed in September of 2023 where um. they look like almost Close Encounters.

Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see. that peruse congress like right there. Like that thing looks like this like. jokey like Close Encounters of the Third. Kind. Like it looks like it looks. totally fake. Right. So that's those are. the J types. They're like 25ish, maybe. 25 to 30 of those. And then there's the. ones that they've x-rayed and that's. where it gets really weird. The weirdest. ones that I was talking about the. forensics people kind of evaluating are. these M types. These are like four to. five feet. They look pretty anatomically.

consistent. Have you seen them in. person? I have. Really? Yeah. And what. what was your feeling? My feeling was it. was this Keep those images up, please. It was, as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy [ __ ] this. thing is not from here, and then, dude, you have to like chill and like there's. so many other things, you know, there's. so many other gates this has to get. through for us to to actually, you know, verify this stuff. See if you can get. the go the X-rays, Jamie. Find the. images from the X-rays. That That's one,

but there's one that's a little bit. better because it's one of the fetal. position. Um, it's uh Jamie in my. document actually. Look at that one. Okay, there you. go. So, that one has eggs inside of it. What? If you go Yeah. Monzer Monzerat, which is hips. Yeah. How weird. So, if. you go to Yeah. If you go to um Monzerat. clip. Yeah. So, this this one's pregnant. and has what they are claiming to be a.

tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah. How. many of these do they have? So, they. have 8 to 10 of these M types, these. kind of most realistic looking ones. Eight to 10. 8 to 10. And then they have. uh 25 to 30 of the J types. So, yeah, look at that. That's a that's a 3D. reconstruction of the CAT scan. What? So, they have teeth. That's weird. They. have teeth. Yeah, they have they have. tendons. They have bones. They have. cartilage. They have organs inside. And.

then I So, this is where we need to. verify stuff. They even have actually um. Could you go back to the part of the. video where What's that? Yeah, that. part. What the [ __ ] is that, man? That's. crazy. They have osmium and cadmium. implants in them, which are rare earth. metals that were discovered in the 19th. century, too. This. is art. If someone made this, I need to. buy one. Like, you need to tell me how. much this costs. I need to put it on my. table cuz you're a genius. If you've.

made that and you tricked everybody into. thinking that that's real, you're a. goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be. hoaxing people. Well, so then the. alternative is that's real. If that's. real, that's completely insane. Joe, fortunately and unfortunately for you. maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these weras, these gravediggers are. selling some of these things on the. black market. And this case is the wild. wild west. It is so much I get I've. heard seven figures. Seven figures. I've.

heard a lot of money. Um Jeez Louise. But um is Peter Teal buying one of. these? Don't say yes. Look at that thing. It's wow. So crazy. But there there are serious problem. I. can I I want to caveat all of this and. like, you know, I don't want to be. overly sensationalist about this. If. it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It. is the My friend Michael Misola who like. kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. he's making a video or making a. documentary on this um that's coming out.

this August and it's called this is not. a hoax. I told them to put in. parenthesis or this is the most. sophisticated hoax ever because the DNA. testing sucks. There's no signal the. signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA. How come? because there was probably human. contamination like the the um the uh uh. NCBI which is this like biotech. repository where you have a lot of this. genetic information on two of the bodies. Victoria and Maria uh this is all.

publicly available they've done analysis. on this and like the camp that is very. pro you know these being alien is this. guy Haime MSAN and he is um I actually. think he's awesome I love He's um like. this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico and. he's paid a lot of money to protect a. lot of the these bodies. He's very open. about like we just need more scientific. research. Uh you know, he wants more. eyes on this thing, but some of the. genetics uh you know, some of the.

genetics researchers that they're basing. the stuff on. I spoke to one of them. This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ronell. and he's a biologist. I don't think he's. actually a geneticist. And his belief is. like he was like this is you know. there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA. that we don't know and then in the 70%. you have mitochondrial DNA from Myonmar. and then you have um uh uh DNA from a. parasite in Africa and you also have.

bonobos and chimpanzeee DNA which means. it was an ancient primate that uh held. this DNA uh uh uh because it was before. they phoggenetically split off. So what. he's saying and this is crazy is he was. saying that like a a a homminid species. an early homminid species went from Asia. to Africa and because there's some. theories that they actually you know. East Africa is not like the the first. homminid species maybe it was East Asia. so it's already like kind of requiring. some leaps of logic or whatever and then.

had sex with this like primate thing and. you end up with this hybrid and then. another leap of logic is that before. Pizaro and all the kungista is like. there was there's actually like. transmission of you know beings from. Africa to South America. I don't believe. that. That's it's crazy. It's like. saying that you know the Penglin theory. is better than the you know the the. Wuhan lab leak theory which is just like. AAM's razor. That's not real. Um well we. do know that there were other types of.

homminids that coexisted with human. beings. Dennisovvens. Yeah. The the. Flora people the the hobbit people. What. what is the carbon dating on these. things? Carbon dating ranges from 700. years ago, which would actually be. Incan. That would be because Incan. started in like 1450. Um, and then uh all the way down to 800, 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca. people. That's what's fascinating. because, you know, there's this there's. this mystery of the Hobbit people,

right, where they they didn't really. think that that was there's a lot of. speculation that it was some. bizarre type of human being that was. deformed and tiny. And then they. realized like, no, this is a specific. branch of the human chain just like. Dennis Oven, just like. Neanderl. There's a thing called the. Orang Pend. Have you ever heard of that? No. What is that? They think I believe. it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, uh,

where people talk about these little. tiny hairy people that live in the. jungle. Whoa. And so these Flores. things, there's there's a few biologists. that believe these things are still. alive. Interesting. They think even on. the island of Flores, they might still. be alive. What? Yeah. Are you serious? Right. So if they're alive, if this. turns out to be true, like let's imagine. it is cuz there's been things like the. celacanth which they thought were. extinct for millions of years and then. they caught one and they're like, "Oh my. god, this is a prehistoric fish and.

still alive and now they know that. there's a population of them." But this. is the deep ocean, right? Much less. explored. Um, but when you look at. Indonesia, when you look at uh Flores, the island of Flores, look at all these. places like you're talking about. insanely dense vegetation that is. virtually uninhabited. So maybe like and these things used to. live on that island for sure. We've got. bones. We know they lived. We know they. used tools. We know they probably had.

language. They lived on that island. They might still be alive. So, we didn't. know about these things and I think was. it the '9s I think when they discovered. them. Dennisovven's I think was like. 2010. And then this new species, the. big-headed people. Were they julians? What are they called? Yeah, that's it. That's like a few months ago, right? They found these, right? And this is. another type of human being. So, what. what are the odds that there's some.

three-footed three-toed thing that. existed a few thousand years ago? And. there are pictoglyphs all over the. region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in. southern Peru. So, this is one that. looks fake as [ __ ] but this guy is. driving in his motorcycle and he's uh. filming and he claims that he got this. thing running away. No way. A little. hairy thing. Yeah. You could see as he's. riding his motorcycle, he this thing. like darts across the road in front of.

him. And this is a few years ago, too, where, you know, CGI sucked. So, there. it is. You could see it real briefly for. a second. It just runs across the road. Look at that. Oh my god. What is that? I. don't know. But if this thing did exist. at one point in time, I mean, god damn, it looks good. Yeah. If it did exist at. one point in time and people do see it. all the time, it there might be a small. population of them that are still alive,

that thing, the X-ray of it or the the. MRI, the CAT scan looked human but. weird. Yes. But the teeth and the jaw, it looked like a deformed human. And. there it is important to note that there. were skull elongation rituals going on. as early as the Paracas people which. were pre uh the Nazca people. What were. they imitating? That's the interesting. question. What? The Nazca lines. Why are. they making They It's probably humans. that made these things, but they're. things that only make sense from an. aerial view. And they're miles long. And.

they're miles long. What are you doing? And there are there are pictoglyphs, you. know, cave art all over the region with. three fingered beings with tidactyl. beings. Are there really? There are. And. this is the weirdest thing. There's a. guy named Theoria who is like the first. westerner. He's this French kind of he's. an amazing archaeologist and explorer. And um he was the first guy that met. Leandro, the the the um uh gravedigger. who found the bodies to begin with. He ki is the actually like local dialect.

there that's spoken. He says that the. name of the general region means. uh laboratory for insemination and. cloning. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. In. Calki. Yeah. What? So, like I have I I. need to corroborate this. Like I don't. have the the skills to do that, but like. that's what he says. It's crazy. What. the [ __ ] man? I know. But then holy. [ __ ] Why this case is such a headache.

is like there's this guy Steve Meera who. I think is a totally he's a he's a UFO. researcher. He's the one of the less. mushyrained UFO researchers. There's a. lot of mushy brain UFO researchers. Really smart guy. I've like quoted him. in a lot of my other videos. And he's. like, we looked at one of the M types, one of the bigger ones that like I'm. still holding out hope for cuz like I'd. love it to be real. And he said that he. did genetic analysis on two of the. fanges and one came back male, one came. back female. And so he was like, I think. they were constructed. But I'm like, how. do you get by these forensic experts? So.

it's this weird, it's just the DNA. stuff. You don't get a good signal. And. the reason that nobody even cares, this. is the most interesting. paleoarchchaeological case today in my. opinion. The reason that people don't. even care is because in 2023 when these. were popularized by Haime Massan where. he rolled out this Jai Posaphina, the. one that looked like kind of Close. Encounters with the Third Kind in front. of the Mexican Congress. This guy named Manuel Caceras who was an. artist who was making renditions of the. things with like wood and sticks and.

stuff glued together. He was apprehended. at the airport by the chief Peru. prosecutor, this guy named Flavio. Estrada. And there were Reuters picked. this up saying this is all fake because. of these fake and I have this in this. documentary that I'm coming out with. where he goes this was art. Um we dub it. but he goes this was art. It's crazy. So. that's the signals crossed. The signals. crossed and I think if there's anything. about this case it's like let's get our. best and brightest on it and figure it.

out. I think we can figure it out. quickly if we had the right research. And there all these interpols like you. can't move the bodies from from Peru and. it's crazy. Well, even if it's just a. different branch of the human chain, I. mean that just if it if that's a. different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough. I agree that. there's like three-fingered, three-toed. people that lived totally with a weird. shaped head. And if you find if the. there is phenotypic inheritance where. you find that the tridactyl being inside. Monzerat's belly is also tractyl then at.

what point do you go this is the how can. he hoax that? How can he hoax that? That's crazy. Yeah. So and and he's by. the way is the head of the Mexican um uh. medical navy uh uh he he was thrown in. jail for supporting this case because. they were like we don't want to be. associated with this. And now the new. secretary of the Navy in Mexico has. brought him back and he's sort of being. vindicated. But he is like I was like. Jose like if you showed this cat scan.

image of the baby tridactyl to any. normal doctor they didn't know anything. about the case would they say it had. three fingers. He goes yes. So if that's. the case I think that is a big deal. But. then you have the Steve Mera thing. So I. just I don't want to come out fully, you. know. I don't know. Of course. Of. course. Yeah. Of course. But I mean, how. much evidence would there be? This is. the problem with fossils, right? Because. when things die, they don't really. create fossils unless it's a very. extraordinary instance, you know, like.

something unusual has to occur. You got. to get trapped in mud, right? You know. that's how so most of the things that. have lived we don't have fossils of. which is if this thing was a small. percentage or small population small. percentage of the the living humans and. some of them are like that and they just. died off like 500 years ago thousand. years ago and these ones got saved. because they were around a dietimmacous. earth mine which preserved their organs. and their whole body. Just from an. anthropology perspective that should be.

the most fascinating thing but it's got. the stink of a hoax on it. So people. don't want to go and study it. Yeah. I. totally part of what I almost want to do. is like a nature of reality fund that I. tie to the show where I'm like I I see. so many cases like this where I'm like. if we just had some money and it's like. so important for humanity, right? And. it's like nonprofit. It's just let's. just pay to get the best people. I think. like one of the problems with modernity. is like the smartest people are working. on the dumbest problems. We're building.

$15 billion particle accelerators. People are stuck in string theory. We're. like debating all this dumb [ __ ] And. you have these things. I don't know if. they're real. You can debunk it. Fine. But if they're real, and it's not 0%. that they're real according to these. forensic experts. Let's pour some. resources into it. Yeah, it might be. real. They look real. They look kind of. real. They look very real. When I was in. person, I was freaking I was like, "What. the fuck?" Like I said, if that's art, whoever made it is [ __ ] incredible.

If that's art, you you'd have to have a. really deep understanding of anatomy and. then alter it. Yeah. And then make it. uniform so you do multiple versions of. these things. Go back to that image. again, Jamie. The one you just showed. me. Look at that head, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That looks like a [ __ ] alien. It totally looks like an alien. The one. other weird wrench that I I we should. mention is there's a proteomics expert. who wants to remain anonymous because I. think he doesn't want to be associated.

with the stigma of this case. He looked. at some proteins from an isolated skull. of the J types. Now, I don't think the J. types, the things that were rolled out. in front of the Mexican Congress are. necessarily real. I think maybe they. were made in homage to these things that. do look more real. and he found uh uh. alpaca proteins on them. And so that. that's an important another important. point that you know is a little fly in. the ointment here. So somebody probably. made fake ones too. But but if there's a.

market where you can get seven figures. for a real one, of course someone's. going to make some fake ones. Totally. 100%. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like what is that? And why do they have. three fingers? And the Lazar craft, didn't it have like some sort of an. indentation for hands? It did. Yeah. And. didn't have three fingers. Oh, I don't. know. Did it. That would be wild. I. don't know. I think it did. Oh my god. I. think it did. And I think it was really.

small just like these things are. We're. breaking ground on the Joe Rogan. experience. What if that's it? That's. crazy. You know, and also here's the. thing. We have this concept of this. coming from another planet, but it might. not be from another planet. Yeah, it. might be from here. Hal Putoff noted. that on your show. He has a paper called. the saluran hypothesis, which is you. have cataclysms like the younger dus. impact, you know, or other things like. that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's. the asteroid impact killed all the.

dinosaurs or whatever. What if break off. civilization just like this $21 trillion. is supposed to be funding. There you go. Right. like the underground those. tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they. have this immense underground. civilization or city rather and it. almost felt like maybe they were hiding. out from a cataclysm or something and. that's what they think it was. Yeah. So. imagine if there's some breakoff. civilization where they lived I mean. we're talking hundreds of thousands of. years ago but they're different than us. and you know sometimes they come visit.

Could be, man. Could be. Which is one of. the reason why they come out of the. ocean a lot and totally they're. transmedium and like in some sense you. would care way more about the nuclear. stuff. You'd be like don't destroy your. plan. Don't destroy our planet. We're. here. You'll kill us too stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It also you're dropping. nukes in the ocean. You know the. Marshall Islands test. Exactly. That's. nuts. Really nuts. Yeah. And I think. Yeah. It's a whole other rabbit hole. I.

I don't know if you want to get it. See. if you could find out if the Babzar ones. had handprints for them. There's a hand. scanner he talked about, but it wasn't. about three fingers. No, the hand. scanner was at. um Los Alamos. I typed in Bob Lazar UFO. three fingers AI says his claims. have nothing to do with aliens with What. did he say? Uh the controls for the the. vehicle cuz So like mental, right?

There's something about putting your. hands on something. I believe there's. something element. 115. Didn't it say something about. controls? Like that there what did the. inside of the craft look. like? Inside of craft. So that's Jeremy Corbel. I could skip. through that real quick. Outlines. It. says, "Okay." God, I want to say that.

they had three fingers. That would be wild. That would be. [ __ ] insane cuz they're tiny. They. have three fingers. That's these things. He said the seats were very small. Yeah. Yeah. They're supposed to like 3T tall. or four feet tall. That's these things. There you go. That's these things. Yeah. And they're in the cave art. It looks. like they're flying. It's like hard to. say because it's on caves or whatever, but I want to see that, too. Yeah. Yeah. There's Yeah, you can do tridactyl cave. art. God, how weird. And how old is this.

cave art? I think it's dates to the. Nazca period. So around that time. See, let's go look up that first. You did. tridactyl cave art. How weird. It's all so [ __ ] weird, man. Yeah, it's so weird. It's so weird. It's because it's almost like reality is. [ __ ] with you. Yeah, it. is. It is. And you have like the Amazon. is There's probably one in my dock, Jamie, that I sent you. There's a couple. there. Oh, there four. There's one.

there. There three. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa. Whoa. Three fingers and three toes. That's crazy. Textile fragments. Yeah. Wow. Circle. 1000 AD. Whoa. Yeah. Three fingers, three toes, big. crazy head, weird eyes. How [ __ ] strange, man. So nuts. There's so much we don't know. And. everyone's scared of being ridiculous. I. know. You know, everyone's scared. This.

one of the great things about what you. do and what I do is we don't have to. worry about being ridiculous. Totally. Cuz we just are. Yeah. And we don't have. to be like, we have credentials, right? Right. Right. Worry about being taken. seriously. Yeah. Because so many people. do worry about it and they don't want to. stick their neck out. But when you see. something like this, the three fingers, three toaded artwork from a thousand. [ __ ] years ago. Yeah. And it looks. really weird. And then you see these. things, you're like, "Hey, is that. real?" Totally. And discoveries require. boldness. They require like just going.

for it. And it's it's Yeah. It's this. like kind of nitpicky credentialism of. like I can't I can't say anything other. than the established wisdom. What is. your. incremental addition then to human. knowledge? Right. And when faced with. undeniable evidence, will you relent? Will you give in? Or will you just like. will you just like dig your heels in. forever and claim [ __ ] till the till. you drop off the face of the earth? Like. look what's going on with Egypt? You.

know, like you know, and when I had Zahi. Hawas on and he's just completely. unwilling to look at that, what is it? Tommography. The data that shows that. there might be something underneath the. pyramids. Like this is [ __ ] This is. like, is it a shore? How do you know? You don't even understand the science. How could you possibly know? No first. principles arguments surrounding it. It's just no, it can't be or whatever. And I'm like, oh, so you're it's. politics. It's science is supposed to be.

the most immune from politics and it's. the most political thing. Weird. It is. weird. When you find that out, it's so. disappointing. It's so disillusioning. Totally. And then when you have these. scientists that like dismiss people and. they immediately start using ter Look at. this one. That's so wild. This whatever. that thing is around it has a like one. arm with three and then one arm with. three and one foot with three and one. foot with three. But this one's inside. of it. Wow. What is that supposed to be. representing? Two heads. I don't know.

God, there's a couple other things on. the other page that had two headed cats. Maybe two heads but no eyes. How weird. is that? Like what is that? Big eye. One. eye here. One eye here. to an eye. Or. maybe that's it inside something that it. controls. You know what I'm saying? A little. sports model, right? Where it's showing. the fingers, meaning like the fingers. are what operates this thing. What are. you seeing? Yeah. This is so nuts, man. It's so crazy. All three fingers. Like, what are the [ __ ] odds of that? Yeah.

Yeah. What are the odds that this is a. thousand years old, these images and. this these textiles, and then you find. this stuff? Totally. Like what? And it's. in the mythology and right, what the. [ __ ] is going on, man? I know. It's so. frustrating, Jesse. I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian. subcontinent. We have to like LAR it and. like understand. We're finding cities. every day. Like, we need to do the. research. Yeah, we do. We do. Look at. more of these. More three-finger ones.

God, so weird. So different, too. Yeah. So weird. And that looks like almost. that weird bird that we looked at the. other day with Luke. Yeah, it does. Beep. thing that was on a petetroglyph. Yeah. Next, I think Luke who hopefully will be. an amazing guest on your show. He's been. on I know. He was amazing. Yeah, he was. fantastic. He was so good. He um he will. say like he's been everywhere, right? And like he's always like Peru is the. weirdest place I always go. Really? So,

Wow. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much. for coming in. I [ __ ] love your show. It's so good. It's excellent. American. Alchemy. It's on YouTube. Uh, is it just. Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like, how do. they find the channel? Jesse Michaels on. YouTube. I have a [ __ ] which is where we. It's called WH. It's an amazing place. where we facilitate discussions about. cool science and frontier stuff. I I. don't know. I don't see. You must absorb. because your stuff is really well. produced. You must it must take an.

enormous amount of time to edit all. that. Honestly, I'm burnt out. Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I. really appreciate you. I appreciate it. Everybody, go watch it. Go check out the. channel. It's fantastic. Uh, if they. want to find you on social media, what. is your my social media? Uh, Jesse. Michaels official on Instagram, Alchemy. American. No way. Thank you. Bane of my. existence. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure. Roll. call back in the day. All right. Well, thank you so much. It. was fun. Let's do it again sometime when.

more shit's going to come out. Hopefully. Let's do it. I'm awesome. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].