Joe Rogan Experience #2324 - Amanda Knox

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. Hello. Hey. Good to see you. Good to see. you again. You have a book. I do. Yeah. I hope you like it. Free. That's a great. name. Yeah. Well, it's it's on point. Yeah. It's on the nose. Yes. Well, that. that whole question of what does it mean. to be free and what you know, yes,

there's the physical like, oh, you're. out of prison, but then also is your. life the thing that you expected it to. be and how do you make your own freedom. when you feel hemmed in by all of the. things that happened to you? So, yeah, you're connected to that forever. That's. always going to be a part of your life. It's not like anything else that didn't. really happen. Like you didn't do. anything and you're connected to. something that you didn't really do. forever. For people that don't know the. story. Yeah. Yeah. We should do a little. recap. Recap. Okay. Recap friends. Real.

quick. Recap friends. Um and you can go. back to the episode that of Joe Rogan. What number was that? Do you not off the. top of your head? If you just Google. Amanda Knox, you'll go, "Holy shit.". She'll go down a crazy rabbit hole. Yes. So in a nutshell, what happened? Yeah. I. was studying abroad when I was 20 years. old in Peruia, Italy. My one of my. roommates was raped and murdered by a. burglar who broke into our home. But I. was accused of having orchestrated a.

murder orgy. And I was sent to prison. for 4 years. I was sentenced to 26. years. I was put on trial for eight. years. And it became this international. scandal. uh where it sort of pinged all. of the buttons in all the right places. This happened in. 2007. So, you know, early 2000s when the. internet was well or the internet, the. social media was really becoming a. thing. The iPhone was becoming a thing.

I think that that played a huge role of. people sort of going into their little. echo chambers and fighting online. And. so I think that there was yeah it it was. a case that for whatever. reason rose above the the level of other. cases like ultimately this case was. actually very simple and it wouldn't. have risen to the level of international. infamy were it not for the series of. mistakes that the prosecution and the. def and the detectives made at the very. beginning by trying to pin a man's crime.

on me, a woman. Yeah. Um, and if anybody wants there's a. documentary. Yes, there's a Netflix. documentary. Um, I wrote a book called. Waiting to be Heard. And then more. recently, I wrote this book, Free My. Search for Meaning, which covers like, you know, you can read it and learn. about the case, but it's mostly about. how do you come out of an experience. like that and make sense of it. And then. part one of the big stories in it is how. I then developed a relationship with my.

prosecutor, which I think you'll. probably be in the camp of people of. thinking that I'm utterly insane for. having done that. Maybe, maybe, maybe. you won't. I just remember that when we. talked about this back in the day, you. were like, "This motherfucker." Yeah. So, you've become friends with him. Friend is an interesting word. Um, what. is a friend? Someone else asked me that. like I was like depends on how what you. mean by friend. Um because and they said.

well do you trust him? And I said well I. I think that at the point that we are. now in our relationship um I do trust. him. I trust that he's telling me the. truth about what he really thinks and. and feels about the situation. And so I. feel like I have very privileged special. access. to the mind of the person who put me in.

prison. And that is a very interesting. uh awkward but also empowering place for. me to be because one of the things that. really bothered me about this experience. was not understanding why it happened to. me. Why did this man look at a. 20-year-old girl with no criminal. history, no motivation to commit this. crime? Why did he look at me and think, "There's my rapist and murderer." And I.

didn't understand it. And I didn't feel. like demonizing him in my mind or. vilifying him in my mind was going to. actually give me a satisfying answer as. to the why of it all. A lot of people. said, "Well, it's just cuz he's a bad. dude. He doesn't care what the truth is. He's just covering his ass." like these. were all really simplistic ways of. framing his motivations and I didn't. really buy them. Um so instead what I. was interested in was going to the.

source and confronting him asking why. But to ask someone, why did you hurt me? Which I think is a really common thing. that people who have been hurt want to. know is they want an acknowledgement. that they've been hurt and they want to. understand why and they they want to. know if that person's not going to hurt. them anymore or not going to hurt other. people. Like that's really common for. people who have been hurt. Um the. challenge is that people who hurt other. people don't like to be confronted with.

that fact. And so, how do you start a. conversation that's not going to. immediately become adversarial? And that. was one of my biggest challenges. But I. came up with this. methodology that I actually became so. important to me that I tattooed it on my. arm. So, this is it. Um, there are four. steps. And, uh, the first one is find. common ground. So, it's this ven. diagram. Find common ground. I promise.

you that every single person on this. earth, you have something in common with. them. Find it. So, I asked myself, what. could I and my prosecutor have in. common? I didn't know this man. I didn't. know what his history was, what his. background was, but I did know that he, like me, was part of this really big. scandalous in the media case. And he. very likely felt misconstrued or. misrepresented. also in the process,

maybe dehumanized in the process. And so. I reached out to him and I acknowledged. that fact. I said, "Hey, I don't know. who you are. I only ever encountered you. in the police office and in the. courtroom where you were someone who was. trying to ruin my life." So you were a. big scary. boogeyman. And I saw you in the media. and I, you know, I've seen how the media. represented you. But I knowing from. experience, I know how that can be very. misrepresentative. So I said to him, I.

want to know who you really are and I. hope that you might be interested to. know who I really am cuz I don't think. you know who I really am. I don't think. that you would have prosecuted me if you. knew who I really am. And that was the. beginning of the dialogue. this like I. went out of my way to acknowledge that. he might have had noble motivations even. if he was wrong. And I think this is. like a really important.

thing. is I I wanted to give. him radical benefit of the doubt. Maybe, just maybe, this like horrible. thing that happened to me could have. been the result of understandable. mistakes. And if anything, I think. coming into contact with the innocence. movement and criminal justice system. stuff and reform, all the stuff that. I've learned after having gone through. this experience has made me realize that.

like some of the most horrible things. can happen and can be enacted by people. who have the best of intentions. And so. I assumed that of him and I gave him. that benefit of the doubt. And as soon. as I like opened that door like, "Hey, you hurt me, but maybe that wasn't your. intention. Maybe your intention was. something. else." He filled that void with his. story and his message and and what he. wanted me to understand about himself.

And I mean, one of the wildest things. about this book is that I talk about. like I do not sugarcoat what I went. through like and especially what he did. to me. Like I very like clearly set out. like here's the [ __ ] up [ __ ] he said. about me in court. Completely without. evidence like totally made up [ __ ]. like and it ruined my life, right? Here's what it. is. Acknowledge these facts. And also.

and also here is a person who might have. had like in doing so might have been. coming from a place of trying to. rationalize things in his own mind which. is a thing that we all do. We all do on. a on a regular basis. We're all just. sort of interpreting our reality in the. way that suits us. And so. I and I wrote this book from my. perspective. I translated the entire. thing into into Italian before it ever.

got published so that I could share it. with him so that he would know what I. was saying about him in public, what was. imminently going to come out. And his. response. was, "I have never felt more. seen." That's what he told me. That. sounds like something a teenage girl. would say. Well, that's an interesting. observation. um because it's become.

quite emotional. um especially on his part. Um I don't I I shouldn't go there too. much. Um. you're protecting his privacy. That's. hilarious. Yeah. AG1 has been a longtime. partner of the show and I'm excited to. share some big news. The new AG1 NextGen. formula is here. They did a bunch of. research and improved their formula to. make sure it's the best it can be. The.

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NextGen and notice the benefits for. yourself. That's drinkagg.com/joan. Yeah, you're a very nice person. You're. so much nicer than me. Well, I don't know. I've just had really. bad stuff happen to me and like I don't. wish bad stuff upon other people. And. that's a beautiful way to live your. life. It really is. I mean, that's uh. what all Christians aspire to is what.

you're doing. Yeah. Uh I I guess I'm not a Christian. Radical forgiveness. Yeah. You know, and. it's funny. I didn't really set out for. people like point to that. They're like, "Forgiveness, forgiveness. You're doing. forgiveness." And I was like, "Is this. forgiveness or is this just. communicating with him is forgiveness in. some way and not having extreme anger?". Well, that's the thing. I do have. extreme anger. Like that's all part of. it. Um, and this is where like the. Buddhist in me comes out.

where you you can have extreme anger. towards a person and at the same. time hold them in your hand as this like. tender, fallible. creature that is capable of violence. against you, but is also capable of. being hurt. Just because someone hurt. you doesn't mean that they're not. capable of being hurt. And I certainly. don't want to be in the position of. hurting someone. Like that's just who I.

am. And if anything, like one thing that. I've communicated to him is like, look, I don't know if you're ever going to. really wrap your head around what you. did to me. Um, but if you do one day, um, I know that you're going to feel. really, really bad. And I just want you. to know that. I I. I don't wish suffering on you. I don't.

Did you ask him if he had gone over any. of his previous cases and wondered. whether he did the same thing to other. people? because I don't think that's. something you do once. I don't think you. are an ethical prosecutor who just. really objectively analyzes the evidence. and puts forth a case based on what you. think is the facts. Mhm. I don't I don't.

think you do that your whole career. And. then this 20-year-old [ __ ] I think. she's too cute. I don't like how she's. smiling. Yeah, there. Yeah, there was. that element to it, wasn't there? Well, yeah, I think that and I do feel like. there was some kind of. pornographic nature to it like I don't. know like I think that men Well, there's. a lot of men that have like a deep. resentment for beautiful women. just from feelings of rejection or Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. because they are. attracted to them or they find them to. be beautiful or desirable and they know. that that woman wants to have nothing to. do with them. Like they are completely. repulsive. And so that you you see it a. lot with unfortunately unattractive men. They develop a hate for women. I've seen. it I' I've seen it evolve over years. with people that I used to be friends. with. you know, like just constant. rejection and then it becomes like [ __ ].

these women and [ __ ] them. They just. want this like, okay, put yourself in. their position. You're. gross. Like, what are they supposed to. do? Try harder. What are they supposed. to do? Like, be with someone that. they're not attracted to to make that. person feel better. Like, that's not. what people do. Like, you have a short. window of life. Yeah. Yeah, you're. supposed to pursue what you like and. you're, you know, your [ __ ] hand of. card sucks. Sorry. You know, this is how. it goes. But that thing where you know.

they look at you like you have it too. easy. You have too many gifts. There's. life has given you too good a hand of. cards, you know, and you should be. punished. You should be knocked down a. peg. You see that in particular in the. media with celebrity. It's a big one. with celebrity women. If something goes. wrong, like they just can't wait Oh, yeah. to dunk on them, mock them for.

weight gain, whatever it is. For getting. out of a car in the wrong way and they. they were the ones who were like showing. up to get up their skirt. Yeah. Any any. sort of That stuff was on purpose. Oh, is it? Yeah. I think the Paris Hilton. stuff like back in the day where a lot. of women were like it was like an. epidemic of girls getting out and. photographers just happened to be on the. ground like you're a woman you've worn. skirts. It's not easy to look up. someone's skirt if you're standing up. and someone gets out there. How the [ __ ].

do you get down there? You you'd have to. be on your knees. I think they were. doing it on purpose. I think it was a. way of going viral before viral was a. thing cuz it went away. Like when was. the last time that we had an up the. skirt shot? Why don't you have any. underwear on? That seems weird. Well, panty lines, you know, that's a real. thing. Uh, yeah, sure. But that's what. g-strings are invented for, right? Those. still create lines, my friend. Depends. on the dress. Yes. But I mean, are you. that concerned with lines that you want.

to go bearback? I've not gone bear back. uh at a at a premiere. I have a little. skirt on hopping out of a car. And the. way they did it, it's just I think it. was like uh you know the same people. that had sex tapes that leaked air. quotes that were engineered. I mean the. whole thing was it was on purpose like. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. But in but in. terms of your of like trying to take. beautiful women down a peg, I think. you're right. I also think that.

something that was going on um in my. case that I think you also tend to see. in those situations where you're trying. to take beautiful women down a peg is. this idea of like pitting women against. each other. Um like that was a huge. thing in my case where they were. suggesting that, you know, here I was. this like free-spirited but also hory, you know, American girl versus the. uptight, judgmental British girl. and. and therefore they hated each other and.

with you know with a vengeance with a. lethal vengeance and then then this idea. of like a murder orgy appeared where. this pornographic fantasy of women ex. like. expressing their own violent fantasies. towards each other in real life and. using men as pawns in that in that game. of of violent hatred towards each other.

I think you see that a lot. um you know. even in like a person that I I write. about in this book who's become a a dear. friend of mine is Monica Lewinsky and. how I feel like people really wanted to. bring her down a peg in part because. they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg. and the whole like p the person who. actually committed the affair was sort. of I mean he definitely got his part but. it was all like a political game of.

they're trying to take down the man but. they're also taking down on the women. and they're especially railroading this. young woman who made a mistake and it. became known as the Monica Lewinsky. scandal and not you know the the Bill. Clinton affair or whatever like it. matters what you name a thing and it. seemed like the legacy of that and the. person who became defined entirely by. that scandal happened to be Monica the. one who was the person with the least. amount of power and agency in that.

equation and also 20 years old. Yeah. 23. years old. Yeah. Who did a very normal. thing, which was fall in love with a. charismatic, powerful man. And he was. handsome as [ __ ] back then. Oh, yeah. I. mean, he was the president of the United. States. He was the president of the. United States. He was charismatic. He. was handsome. He showered her with. attention. And it makes sense that a. young inexperienced person would fall in. love with him. And yet, she was the one. who got railroaded. She was the home. wrecker. She was the the one who became. the subject of all the rap lyrics. and.

her entire life and her entire identity. became identified with this mistake she. had made. And that was not the same. thing with the president of the United. States. And I think that that impulse to. define women by their worst moments and. to tear them down for their worst. moments is um is prevalent as from what. I have seen. I think because they know. it's so devastating to the person, you.

know what I mean? It's like there's that. the bully instinct when they know that. you're weak and vulnerable, you know, to. attack, you know, but why? To what end? People are cruel cuz they've been hurt, you know. It's the hurt people hurt. people thing, you know. I think it's. like shot and freed just as an audience. like we want we want a story. They want. a real life story where we get to, you. know, passively enjoy the destruction of. another human being, right? And also, you don't know her, so you're. disassociated. Yeah. Right. Like, if she.

was your friend and you did that, you'd. have to be special kind of monster. Like. that woman, Linda Trip, like who did it. all, that's a special kind of monster, right? Special kind of monster who trots. that out to the whole world to try to. take down Bill Clinton. Yeah. You know, which didn't even work. No. And that's. what's fascinating. It it worked to. destroy Monica, right? But also like you. when you look at Bill uh Bill Clinton, this uh handsome president, and then you. look at Linda Trip who is very. unattractive, that's also plays in like.

I want to take him down too and probably. I want to take her down as well. Like. there's a lot of like [ __ ] [ __ ]. everybody else. There's a lot of that, you know, when you're, you know, you're. unseen to use the same vernacular, you. know, and then you see like other people. getting attention and it's just like the. fact that she did it and she knew her. and she but also this is like this is. the game of cards that they're playing. This is House of Cards. This is you know.

that this is literally what they do. anytime they have a chance in the. political realm to use any window, any. vulnerability, anything. It's the. dirtiest game in the world. It's a. disgusting game, you know, and if you. get sucked into it, you'll find that. out, you know. It's I don't want. anything to do with it. It's the most. evil. It's really is like when I see. people that are running for president, I'm like, what are you doing? I know. Why would you do that to yourself? Yeah. And then you have to spend the rest of. your life like with, you know, Secret.

Service following you around so you. can't exist in the world as a normal. human being. like. that. I do feel like there is uh you. have to be a special kind of person in. order to be attracted to something like. that. Yeah. And and ironically that's. the kind of person that's attracted to. that in general is not the kind of. person you want in a leadership. position, right? You know, which is like wow, what do we. do now? Yeah. Yeah. So is democracy uh.

completely and utterly flawed because it. relies upon the ambition of uh the wrong. people or heroes or legitimate heroes. like someone who's like you know I'm. going to tolerate this. I'm going to. carry the burden of this on my back. because I think I can help people. But. does anyone ever like actually arrive at. the pre like at the seat of the. president as that person? Like I here's. the question. Do they stay that person? Because I used to think Obama was that.

person. I really did, you know. I was. like, "Wow, we got a good one, you. know." And then I was sad I missed out. on that. Yeah, it was pretty cool. But. in retrospect, you know, when looking. back, like probably not really like. probably got corrupted by the system or. was corrupt originally, you know, and is now willing to openly. lie. God. Yeah. It's uh it's dark. It's. dark, you know, and I think.

um it's just. a it's it's a strange social position. that I don't think is manageable for. anyone. I don't think the human mind is. prepared to be in that kind of a. position of power and not have it. completely distort what you are. And. then there's the relationships that you. have to have with all these various. politicians and then special interest. groups and lobbyists and then foreign.

leaders and then yeah, how do you manage. all of that? Heads of defense contract. companies like what? Yeah. Can I tell you a story? Yes, please. Okay. So, this story didn't actually make it. in my book, but it is one that. I wanted to tell you because it it talks. about how my weird relationship with.

other people who are in positions of. power like police officers, right? Like, you know, I'm a I'm an advocate of. criminal justice reform. Um, I talk a. lot about like I go and testify in front. of my, you know, state Congress trying. to get certain laws passed to protect, you know, innocent people. And one thing. that I like to point out is that I'm not. anti- law enforcement. Um, if anything, I was a victim of crime before I became. a victim of the criminal justice system.

Like, someone broke into my home and. raped and murdered my roommate. And then. I called the cops and then the cops went. on to betray me. And but that doesn't. mean that there isn't like I'm not one. of those, you know, [ __ ] all the police, we don't need them, you know, abolish. the whole system. That's not what I. believe. Um but as as someone who has had this. complicated experience with police, um I. don't really know what to do when.

something bad goes down. And I want to. tell you a story about something bad. that went down. Um, it was in LA. I was. staying at a friend's house with my. husband and our two kids. We were doing. work down there and our friends were not. there. But, um, in the middle of the. night, we hear someone yelling out in. the, you know, out in the street. We. think there's some drunk guy out there, but it gets closer and closer and closer. until finally there is a huge bang. Um,

and my husband gets up in his tidy. whiteies and says one thing to me, call. the police before he marches downstairs. We were upstairs in the second story and. we hear a bang. We hear yelling. He goes. down there in his underwear and I don't. know if the last thing I'm ever going to. hear from my husband at that point is. call the police, which is an interesting.

final words to get from the love of your. life when you're me. And my my, you. know, infant son is crying. My, you. know, 2-year-old daughter at the time is. going, "What's going on?" And I'm trying. to calm him while reassure her while. looking around the room thinking, "How. do I barricade a door? And can I jump. out of a window with two small. children?" All of that before I think.

dial 911 because the last time that I. dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for. help, I got thrown into prison. I realize that there's nothing I can do. to protect my kids. So, I call. 911 and eventually, you know, my husband. is able to get this intruder to leave. the house. Um, the police arrive and I. have a very strange encounter with them.

because they are very nice to me and I. was not expecting that and they are very. nice to my daughter and they give her a. nice little, you know, police badge and. I'm sitting here thinking great, now I'm. going to have to throw a police themed. birthday party for her cuz now she's. going to be super into police and I'm. just like what is happening to my life? And I'm scared that they're going to. recognize me and I'm scared they're. going to think maybe she faked a break. in like all of that is going on in my. head. and I don't know how to resolve.

that of you know somebody broke. into I have you know broke into my home. once murdered my roommate broke into the. place I was staying again thankfully. didn't murder. anybody but like how do I make sense. of my relationship with people who are. empowered to protect me but also are. empowered to hurt me. What do I do about. that? You tell me, Joe. What do I do?

There's no way I could know what's going. through your mind. You know that the experience that you. had. is no one can even pretend. to have those thoughts in their head. because this is not just paranoid. fantasy. This is this is your actual. lived experience for. years. Yeah, that's a good question.

What what had happened like the bang? Was it someone kicking down the door? Yeah, he had kicked in the door through. the deadbolt. What was the yelling? The. yelling was he was just uh. schizophrenic. Yeah. He he thought that. he someone had stole that house from him. and he was yelling for some name of a. person who didn't live there. Clearly. was just like either confused or. mentally ill in some capacity. Um but and thankfully not armed, but.

like my husband didn't know when he. walked down the stairs in his underwear. without any any like he grabbed a broom. on his way down and that was he was. between putting himself and a broom. between whoever this person was who had. just kicked in the front door through. the deadbolt and his family. Um, and that might have been the last. time I ever saw him, you know, and I did. not know what to do. I try to like joke. about it now where I actually did a.

standup bit about it a while back about. how I was like testing my butt to see if. it was bouncy enough to like jump out of. the window and bounce. But like I when I. think back on it, it's just it's still. scary, you know? Um, and and I don't I don't like how I. feel right now that when I'm scared, I'm. supposed to call the police, but I'm. also scared to call the police. Jesus.

And so, you know, when I go and do. advocacy work for, you know, I'm I'm now. on the board of an organization called. the Innocence Center, um, innocencecenter.org, which by the way. just got a bunch of federal funding uh. taken away. Thanks Elon. Um you'd think. that they would be interested in. supporting organizations that clean up. the messes of the criminal justice. system, but apparently not. Um so if you.

want to support us, innocencecenter.org. How did what what happened that they got. their funding taken away? What what was. the circumstances like? Uh I mean there. there's a federal funding that is. designed for innocence organizations and. I think what I heard is that there are. certain words that sort of became taboo. within the um. administration that if you were using. these words or these terminologies that.

they associate with like DEI that then. they're that sort of puts you on the. list of being cut for federal funding. And one of those words was like the word. fair. And in a organization that is. interested in justice and for in getting. innocent people out of prison, the word. fair is going to come up quite a bit. So. is it just an algorithm? They're just. scanning the mission statement of. whatever these organizations are. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a first a.

first step is they'll just use this. They're going to use algorithms and AI. to help them identify potential things. to cut. And I think as a as a new. innocence organization, we were. considered not worthy of the federal. funding that we have relied on and to. help innocent people. And now are you. one of the founders of this. organization? Me? No, I'm on the board. Um, but yes, this is um formerly the. California Innocence Project that has. since sort of turned into the Innocence.

Center. But you'll see you're seeing. this all across the board of innocence. projects of getting their federal. funding taken away. And there's no. accusations of impropriy or misuse of. funds or high salaries for certain. individuals or. nothing. Nope. Just it's deprioritized. because I think we're considered leftist. organizations potentially. I don't know. Um, but I know that.

like I have always thought that. innocence and getting and justice were. bipartisan issues and I thought that we. had been making great, you know, strides. in in sort of welcoming in both liberal. and conservative partners in this. ongoing fight. But because these sort of. these things disproportionately impact. people of color, you're going to. see language around that that. acknowledges that fact. And I think that.

that has been sort of put in we are. innocence organizations are now being. put into DEI camps and we're being. stripped of funding. And I think that. that's I hope that that's an oversight. issue um and that they're going to. recognize the mistake that they're. making. But as it stands right now, innocence organizations, not just the. one that I'm associated with, are. scrambling to get the funding that they. were promised to. continue doing, you know, doing the.

things that cost money, like filing, you. know, filing all of their work and and. going through all of the case work and. doing the DNA tests and doing. investigations to see if you can reach. the witnesses that maybe have changed. their stories in all these years. takes. a lot of money and resources to prove a. person's innocence. You have to. reinvestigate a case and we're we don't. we don't have the funding that we we. used to. This episode is brought to you. by Zip Recruiter. Speed dating is an. interesting concept, isn't it? Setting.

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at. ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's. ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Zip intro post. jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates. tomorrow. Um, I do a lot of work with. Josh Dubin. Mhm. And you know Josh? Yeah. I mean, I've never met him. personally, but he's with the he was. with the Innocence Project and now he's. with the Ike Prutter Center for Legal.

Justice and it's same kind of work. Ironically, Ike Prutter is very close. friends with Trump. Huh. And so I mean I. would have thought that that would have. been of interest to Trump considering I. think it's a baby with the bathwater. type deal where there's a lot of what. you would call almost like slush fund. NOS where they're. inappropriately moving funds around and. doing stuff. And I don't know if you. ever seen any of Mike Benz's work, but. he essentially says that US A is really.

there to do things that are too dirty. for the CIA. So the extraordinary amount. of money that was being moved around, there's a certain percentage of it that. was inappropriately being used. I. imagine so. Yeah. Yes. An enormous. percentage. There's it's a lot of m. But. unfortunately, there's a lot of good. that also is coming out of that money. And that's what's difficult. That's. like, you know, when you round up uh all.

the quote unquote gang members, right, and you fly them to El Salvador, are you. sure? Yeah. They're all gang members, or. do you care? Right. Exactly. I think do. you care or is it just like we're just. here to clean things up and if And if we. throw it in make an omelette, right? our. are innocent people the price of us. getting to be efficient. Don't become a. monster when you're fighting monsters. Yeah. And that's what I think we're.

we're brushing up against right now. And. um and as someone who really is like. just interested in keeping especially. this issue like this is a human like we. all we all should be on the same side. about this. Um, yeah. Why, like, why is. it being turned into this a left or. right issue? And well, maybe I can get. this in front of Josh and he can present. it to some people and, you know, have. them reconsider their position. That.

would be great. I I would you know and. if you need put me in contact like I. would be happy to you know one of the. things through working with Josh and you. know just through this podcast we've. gotten a lot of people released um that. were wrongfully convicted and you know. when you go over the amount of. corruption that's involved and I I think. there's an. issue with uh human beings whenever.

there's a binary position, a one or a. zero. You win or you lose. Yes. The. adversarial system where it's like I. have to be I have to win this side and I. cannot at all like acknowledge some. truth that might be to the other side. Like and then you have this game where. you hire like if you are a guilty. person, you hire the best defense. attorneys that probably even know you're. guilty, but their job is to get you off. by any means necessary to Well, their.

job is to make the government prove your. guilt, right? That's what a technically. a defense attorney who's really good, right? But that's not really what. they're doing. They're trying to get you. out of jail. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. The goal being if you can't. actually prove it then well their goal. is to win as often as possible so that. they're the person like this this is the. guy you want you know although I have. talked to some really interesting. defense attorneys. um the defense attorneys who represented. Larry Nasser for example um famously for.

those who don't remember was uh. molesting young gymnasts. Do you. remember him? The Olympics guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I interviewed them. because it was two women who represented. him. And so a lot of people were like, "How dare you represent this man as a. woman? How could you?" And their. position was, "Well, we didn't represent. him to prove him innocent. We we had him. plead guilty to these crimes. We just. feel that everyone deserves to have a,

you know, a defender. We're we're we're. defenders. We we represent people in in. the law." and they were getting like. demonized for even taking him on as a. client. And I thought that was. interesting because they weren't trying. to get him off. They were just trying to. have to to represent due process. And I. I felt like that was a really. interesting case. of people. confusing the the what what is the role.

of a defense attorney? And I think. you're right, like some defense. attorneys really don't care if their. clients are are guilty or innocent. because they are also in this. adversarial system and so they are also. in this position of just wanting to win. and and wanting to make the lives of, you know, law enforcement difficult and. they're willing to throw victims under. the bus in the process. Like I've had. really frank conversations with um with. friends of mine in the in the innocence. world where they talk about how they. were trained to just destroy a victim in.

order to to diminish their credibility. in court and and to really put them in a. a really bad position so they didn't. want to pursue justice for themselves. And I think that and they look back and. go, "Oh my god, I can't believe that. that's how I was trained to be a defense. attorney." But like that was just part. of the game. And I think that's where. this whole course of justice gets. completely distorted because it's like. well what is the what is the point of. all of this? Like it should be about.

like arriving at the truth and then. doing and then having there be like some. recognized consequences for. acknowledging what really happened. we. need to address the issue which is. somebody got hurt by someone else. What. do we do? Now what? And instead it's. become well I'm going to win like I'm on. this team you're on this team fight. Let's see who wins. And as a result the. the whole issue of truth gets distorted. and and becomes about making the best.

story that that captures the people's. attention. And I think I mean that was a. huge lesson for me was realizing that. like the truth didn't matter. Like. nobody cared about the truth. They cared. about the story and was it a story that. spoke to them and was it a story that. lingered for them? And that's, you know, an ongoing thing that I I I write about. is like, okay, here's this crazy story. that is not true that took over my life.

and that still has this huge role like. I'm still in conversation with that. crazy story that was written about me. and and the fact that like my entire. identity is now wrapped up in the death. of my friend that I had nothing to do. with and I'll forever be defined by. because it's such a cap. captivating. story and because the prosecutor. was dead set on winning and wasn't.

necessarily interested in the truth. what he says and it's very it's again it. goes back to like what are we telling. ourselves and what is what is the. cognitive bias and I think this is where. it gets super interesting. because. winning is interpreted in some people's. minds as doing their duty right like the. way that my prosecutor has always talked. about it with me is that he maintains.

that he was doing his duty. He this was. his job. His job was. to make a case that made logical sense. to him based upon certain. premises and then to win that case in. court. That was his job. That was his. duty. And he believes that he was doing. the right thing because that was that's. what he was trained and incentivized to.

do. In the same way that like you know. journalists if you ask journalists back. who covered the case back in the day. they'll be like well we were doing our. job our job was to sell the best story. that we could to our audience and right. and but and so that's when it gets like. [ __ ] up cuz like how how have our. institutions that we've relied on to be. truth seeeking institutions been. corrupted from the inside by ultimately. what is a question of like money or or.

power. Um, when politics gets brought. into the the equation with criminal. justice, suddenly, you know, your. prosecutor is now wanting to win cases, not because they're the right cases to. win, but because they want to be. elected. Like, all of that. gets distorted and and the the. motivations behind all our institutions. become warped. Well, the but the with. the media, it's even more disgusting. because it's not about politics. It's. literally just about getting people to.

pay attention to their story, right? And. buy newspapers or click on links, right? That's it. Right. And then they hold. then they hold their the audience. accountable for the kinds of stories. that they are then incentivized to. write. They say, "Well, you know, I. wouldn't been writing the story if you. weren't clicking on it." And and it's. like this vicious cycle. That's crazy. It's like I wouldn't have robbed your. house if you didn't have nice stuff. Exactly. Exactly. That's [ __ ] crazy. But like that's how if you're in that. little echo chamber of a system and.

that's what your reward structure is. Of. course that's what you're going to end. up delivering if you're somebody who's. not who doesn't have the introspection. to question like okay wait what am I. doing and what is the point of all of. this and do you have certain principles. but again the people who rise to the top. are maybe the ones who are willing to. question those principles in order to. achieve certain ends. Yes. Yeah. And. then there's also the problem with. you're working for a corporation if. you're in the news. If you're not an. independent journalist who has like rock. solid personal ethics, you're working.

for a corporation and your job is to. make money for your shareholders. ultimately. And the way you do that is. to get as many people to click on those. links as possible. And maybe the person. who's on the ground has a certain vision. for what they want their like on the. ground reporting to do. But then once it. gets in the hands of editors and other. editors, like it becomes completely. warped from the thing that they were. originally reporting on because the. person who's over here is so divorced. from the actual on the ground story and. they know instead the story that's going. to sell. Yeah. So yeah, it's dark. I.

mean, it's the same sort of distortion. Excuse me. Salute. Sorry. It's the same sort of. distortion um with when you were talking. about prosecutors. um just trying to win. It's this it's. this thing where and. ultimately. it's it's it's a a severe distortion of. what the best case scenario is. The best. case scenario is prosecutors don't care.

about winning. They care about finding. truly guilty people. And in cases where. someone, whether they uh withhold. evidence that could have exonerated an. innocent person or whether they distort. things or twist things around in order. to win, they should be forever removed. from that system. You should never be. allowed to do that. But this is Kla Harris did that and rose.

to be vice president and almost became. president and she is absolutely guilty. of doing that. Yeah, I know it's she. tried to withheld withhold DNA evidence. that would have exonerated someone. I. know she was not a popular choice among. the innocence community. I'll tell you. that. Oh yeah. No. Josh Dubin broke her. down on my show but when she was here. president No. Okay. No. No. No. No. broke down what she was guilty of when. she was a prosecutor in California.

Yeah. No, it it wasn't. And that's why I. was so mad that our party never actually. gave us a choice. Right. Right. There. was no primary. No, there was no. primary. They were just like, "Here's. the person now." And and if you don't. vote for her, you're a bad person. Exactly. You're a fascist. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, it was that that this. whole But then again, that's also just. trying to win. Yeah. It's the same kind. of thing. It's just the the focus is on. winning. Yeah. At what cost? I mean, and. then that's a very slippery slope. because if you're willing to accept.

that, guess what? Guess what? That that. slope keeps slipping. Mhm. And then next. thing you know, you know, yeah, you. don't have breaks, right? You have to. put a [ __ ] blinder on because you're. you're part of the problem. You're part. of what's destroying society. So then. you have to like reshape your own. personal narrative and lie to yourself. about what you're doing and why you're. doing it, right? a little bit of like. self brainwashing. Yeah. Um, and that. fascinates me like in conversations with. my prosecutor, how how has he convinced.

himself that he's the good guy and and. how has that changed when I have. approached him not as an adversary but. as someone who is. uh I wouldn't say like tolerant because. I've never put myself in a position of. sort of saying, "Oh, what you did was. not a big deal." Like when I approached. him, I was like, "What you did was a big. deal and you were wrong and you hurt.

people." But like acknowledging his. humanity and the complexity of him and. acknowledging that like he's not an evil. person. Um well, what is evil? Intentional malice. Maybe that seems. like he was doing it intentionally if he. was paying attention to the facts of the. case. I mean, there was DNA evidence. There was all sorts of stuff that. pointed to you not being the guilty. party, and they ignored that. If that's. not evil, I mean, what he did, it's.

interesting. um he wrote a whole book. about the case and he talked about how. when he first arrived at at the scene, he immediately knew that it was a. conspiracy because he looked at the the. broken window, how the person had. actually broken into our home and said, "There's no way, zero chance that a. burglar would have broken in to a house. this way." He just was like 100%.

convinced that immediately that the. break-in was staged. And if you take. that, if if you and your brain truly. believe that, then what logically. follows is a lot of what he then came up. with. Well, someone in the house is. trying to cover up for a crime that they. were involved in. Who lives in that. house? Well, there are three other. girls, one of whom was in Rome, one of. whom is another Italian girl who was.

with her boyfriend and friends, and one. of whom is the American girl who was. with her boyfriend that night, but who. also happened to be the one who called. the police and brought attention to the. house. So maybe because we found her at. the scene of the crime, may like all of. it sort of starts to like make logical. sense if you begin with a false premise. How did he reconcile that in the book? In his book? Yeah. I mean, he he makes. logical leaps. So, he goes, "Okay, well, then we discovered that, you know, all.

of this DNA of the person who actually. committed the crime, right? Like, you. know, they they finally get the DNA back. and it's all pointing to this guy who. has a history of breaking and entering. and and aggression towards women." And. he doesn't go, "Oh, no, we made a. mistake." He goes, "Oh, how can now he. be involved in this thing that I know. Amanda's involved in because I know the. break-in was staged." And you know like. so these the this is how a person with. good with genuinely good intentions can.

can have false beliefs that then logic. from which one can logically derive an. insane story that requires like him to. now believe like one of the things that. I pointed out to him that just like. drives me nuts that he continues to like. somehow hang on to is this idea that I. was in a threesome with like I was in a. three-way way relationship with my. actual boyfriend Raphael and this. burglar Rudy GDay. And I was like, "Where are you coming up with that?" And.

he was like, "Well, whenever I interviewed Rudy, like. he talks about interviewing, you know, interrogating Rudy, Rudy always seemed. to have affectionate things to say about. he always seemed to like be interested. in you." And from that, I can logically. deduce that you guys had a relationship. And I was like, we we like I didn't even. know his name. There's no record of us. ever communicating with each other. No. one ever like saw us hanging out with. each other. Like what are you talking. about? And he's like, well, if he was.

involved in the crime and you're. involved in the crime and he's sort of. talking about, you know, you in an. affectionate way, then logically it. makes sense that you were in this, you. know, three-way relationship with. Raphael and Rudy. And I'm like, that's. not true. And he was like, "Well, that's. what it's that's what made logical sense. to me at the time." I think the issue is. an egotistic idiot that has power. That's really what I think it is. Certainly someone who has a belief and a.

confidence in their own abilities as a. logical thinker. And I think anyone who. is in that kind of position has to. believe in themsel in that kind of way. But not just that, like you have too. much power. Like there's not enough. oversight. You have too much power. And. then you say something and if your. initial assertion is incorrect, you then. have to defend it. So then you do mental. gymnastics to try to defend it at the. expense of your [ __ ] life. Yes. He.

was willing to put you away forever. Like he had to know at some point in. time in the back of his stupid brain. He. had to know that you were innocent. and. he was willing to push forward and. concoct some sort of a three-way. relationship narrative that he still. sticks to. [ __ ] that guy. Well, and and sometimes that's what my. brain says. You know, sometimes I Your. brain should say that, you know? I mean, forgiveness is really important, but. some people you just can't forgive. Like. some people it's like, no, you need to.

come to grips with the fact that you're. a piece of. [ __ ] That's what's wrong here. It's not. me forgiving you and you having this. hall pass to just to be a piece of [ __ ]. because you had this theory that you're. still accusing me of. No, that's that's. not you're bad at what you do. And. sometimes people are bad at what they. do. Sometimes you get bad teachers, you. get bad cops. Sometimes you get a bad. electrician, your house catches fire.

Some some people suck at what they do. and to like have this like eternal. forgiveness like sometimes it's not. smart to do that. Well, certainly. And I. and I think that's He's still working as. a prosecutor. No, no, he's retired. He. he has retired. He should be in jail. Like literally, I do not wish jail upon. him. I don't Okay, that's sweet. But. that's crime. Like what he did, it was. not just a crime, but it was a. conspiracy. Yeah. I I um I would have to say that I.

agree that there I always wanted to I. always wondered where the adults were in. the room like you know the whole first. two years of my imprisonment I was like. this is all a huge mistake and it's. really obviously a huge mistake and when. are when are like the mommies and. daddies going to show up and say okay. kids stop your squabbbling like let's. straighten things out there's no mommies. and daddies there are no mommies and. daddies That's the thing that freaked me. out is like we're all adults now and.

this is all we are. We're just a bunch. of screaming toddlers just screaming at. each other constantly. And here I am now. I feel in a way trying to mother my. prosecutor through his, you know, psychological tantrums. Um, which is a. weird position to be in. Um because now. that I've, you know, developed the.

relationship that I've developed with. him, I I I like I care about him. Like I. don't think that you can I I set out to. understand him. I wanted to understand. him, but in the process of like really. understanding a human being and having. them. like be really open to you, I don't. know. I feel like you. inevitably begin to care about this.

person even in their, you know, flawed. fragility as a human being. And so on. the one hand, I'm very angry at him to. this day and on the other. hand, I I care about him and I have to. give him some props. He didn't have to. respond to me. He didn't have to meet. with me. He didn't have to sit there and. hear me talk about how he had [ __ ] up. my life and he shouldn't.

have. I did not like it's not that like. me being kind to him does not mean me. tolerating injustice. and it does not mean me not setting. boundaries and it does not mean me. sugarcoating what really happened. like. he knows what I think really happened. and he says, "Well, you know, we can disagree about. our perspectives in some in some ways, but ultimately what matters is that you. reached out to me and saw me as a human.

being and in response I like I also. inevitably came to see you as a human. being and I care about. you and and so in a Hey, like we're. still in this. awkward dance of like one part of us is. stuck in that adversarial system and one. part of us is in a non, you know, adversarial very like accepting of all.

the things. space and we're paradoxically existing. in both of them at the same. time. And I think that that's just kind. of how life is. M like you know one of. the paradoxes of life is that like if. you really just sit down and and sit. with yourself and your life just the way. it is right now. If you really do just. like notice like right now you and me. here we are talking. We are okay. You. and me we are good. And also there's.

still [ __ ] up [ __ ] in my life and. there's still [ __ ] up [ __ ] in your. life and and things could be better and. all of those things can be true at the. same time. like you know I'm still. fighting to clear my name in Italy. I. don't know if you have you kept up with. like the latest with my case. Oh yeah. So still so I've been cleared of like. all the crazy you know horrible murder. orgy all of that stuff cleared. The. thing that remains and this is just the.

bane of my [ __ ] existence is when. they cleared me of having anything to do. with the crime. They left open the. possibility that I was present when the. crime occurred. And I believe the reason. that they did this was because they. wanted to find me guilty of something. And the thing that they found me guilty. of was the way lesser crime on the list. of all the crimes that were there, which.

was slander. They accused me of knowingly and. willingly falsely accusing an innocent. person of having committed this crime. because during my interrogation, I was. coerced into implicating myself and my. boss, Patrick. Leumba, of of committing this crime and I. immediately retracted it, all of that. But that was one of the things that they.

were holding me accountable for. And. they to this day I am still convicted in. Italy of knowingly and willingly. accusing an innocent man. And for me to. knowingly and willingly accuse this. innocent man, I would have to have been. at the house and known who really was. the murderer at the moment that I. falsely accused this innocent person. like I would have had to know that he. was definitively innocent for this to be. the case. And for that to be true, I.

would have to be physically present at. the crime even if I was not. participating in it. So the legal. standing right now to this day is that I. was there and that when I was. interrogated, I knowingly and falsely. accused an innocent person. I appealed. this, by the way, to the European Court. of Human Rights, and they ruled in my. favor. They said that because I had been. denied the right of to have an attorney. and an an interpreter when I was being. interrogated that none of that should.

ever have been I should never have been. convicted of that. And I took that back. to Italy. I took that ruling back to. Italy. And they overturned it. I was. actually acquitted of that for a second, but then sent back for retrial recently. And recently, yeah, this is 18 years. later. recently was put back on trial. for that. This was last year and I was. found guilty again. Oh my god. On the. basis not even of the statements that.

the police like coerced me into signing, but on my retraction. So I hand wrote a. retraction of those statements that the. police coerced me into signing. And I. was like, I'm so confused. I can't. testify. Like I I I don't know if. Patrick did it or not. Like I just don't. know. And they said, "Well, even a. confused statement where you're not sure. what the truth is if you were physically. present of the crime is is slander and. you falsely accused an an innocent man. that you knew to be innocent." And so, but they have no proof that you were. there. Exactly. So, we're in this like.

cyclical thing where they're like, they. just don't want to admit that they. [ __ ] up. That's what I think. And I'm. at this point where I'm like, okay, now. what? Because I'm definitively convicted. of this thing. And like the legal truth. in this case does not represent the. actual truth in this case. Are they. trying to protect themselves from some. sort of a civil suit? Maybe. Um I think. even more than that, I think they're. trying to protect themselves from. admitting that they tortured an innocent.

girl. Oh my god. Oh my god. So, so they. can say, well, she is guilty. She did do. this. She's guilty. And so it's not. crazy for us to think that she might. have been involved in the in the murder. because here she is at least she. probably lied about being there and. Jesus Christ. And all they were ever. able to do is prove that I lived in the. house that this happened in. Like sure. my DNA is in my house. It's not anywhere. near Meredith's body or where the crime. occurred. But they're saying that like I.

was there and it's sort of this like. cyclical sort of reasoning like Amanda. said she was therefore she was therefore. she said she was you know like it's this. like insane cyclical reasoning and I'm. at the point where I have to ask myself. like how do I fight this and if so do I? And that's where this whole question of. freedom comes in. like do I do I have to. definitively like prove my innocence in. a court of law to feel that I have.

definitively proven my innocence or do I. need to definitively prove my innocence. in the court of public opinion in order. to feel free or to feel like I like I'm. not regardless of whether I definitively. prove my innocence or not like am I ever. going to be free of this is this ever. going to be not touching me and. impacting my life and the answer that. I've come to is well no in the way that. like any of our experiences have come to.

define us as human beings and in a way. it's like another way of reframing this. is okay these are my credentials now. like I went to the I didn't go to four. years of P master's degree in poetry I. got a master's degree. in whatever this is being [ __ ]. you know, like, you know, and and so like and I've. learned things from this. I've learned.

I've learned things about the criminal. justice system. I like I can see things. that need to be fixed that have are. really common sense fixes to like it. There is no reason why we shouldn't be. just recording any kind of. communication. Like anytime that anyone. is being questioned by anyone in law. enforcement, there's no reason why we. shouldn't be recording it. And I'm not. talking about even just suspects because. like there's been a whole, you know, world of advocacy around like recording.

interrogations, right? like custodial. interrogations and especially. um making it so that police officers. can't lie to you when you're being. interrogated because that was a huge. thing that impacted me as like a young. confused like overwhelmed human being is. police lying to me and telling me that. they have proof that I was there when. the crime occurred and it made me like. feel like I was insane. And so like the. problem of of police lying to you is not.

just that it's like a bullying. technique, but it it warps your sense of. reality and you start to question. yourself. And so there's psychological. research to show that there are very. negative consequences for police lying. to you during interrogation. But at the. very least, if you record it, you can. sort of track how that is impacting uh a. person who is being who is a suspect. The wild west of all of this is. eyewitnesses or anyone else who is being. questioned by police because there's no. Miranda rights. The like as a person who.

is being questioned by police, you don't. really. have rights like you don't you don't. have like one of the things that they. say in my case is that I never had the. right to an attorney because I wasn't a. suspect. I was a witness. And so like to. this day in Italy there's like this. resistance to the idea that I was like. coerced into I was that I was even. interrogated at all because there's this. like little loophole where they say oh.

you weren't interrogated you were. interviewed. Oh you weren't interviewed. you were questioned. They just changed. the language but what's ultimately. happening is the same thing. you are. stuck in a room with a law enforcement. officer who may or may not be lying to. your face and bullying you and you don't. know if you're free or not to go because. the door is closed and it doesn't feel. like it. And so for me, I think that if. you consider how many wrongful. convictions happened because of. misidentification by witnesses or the.

number of times that like witnesses say, "Well, I wasn't really sure that it was. him, but the police sort of coaxed me or. pressured me into saying it was him and. let sort of made it known to me that it. was him." Like there are lots of things. that are happening behind closed doors. that we really don't have an excuse for. not fixing when every single one of us. has a recording device in our pocket at. all times. And the amount of resistance. to like getting just really common sense.

changes like that to happen from like. law enforcement lobbies is just so. frustrating. as someone who like shows. up again and again and again to like try. to make because it seems like this. adversarial thing like we're we're all. on the same side. It's not like victim's. rights versus defendants rights. It's. not law enforcement versus you know. innocence. It's like we're all on the. same page. Why can't we just acknowledge. a true thing? Um, that's been one of my.

biggest. frustrations in this world is like. feeling like we should all be on the. same side and we should be making common. sense changes and that don't, you know, but it's the way the system is. structured, you know, there's two sides. trying to win and when you lose, you. don't like to lose and so people would. cheat to win. But like lose, what are. you losing? You know, but they're. playing a game. I mean, it's your life. and it's other people's lives. It's. innocent people's lives, but it's also. guilty people's lives. Like, but why.

doesn't like a law enforcement officer. look at something that happened to me? Actually, you know what? I take that. back. Plenty of law enforcement people. have talked to me and said like, "We are. so sorry for what happened to you." The. ones who weren't. involved. That's the problem. The the. problem is, do you look away when you. are. involved? You know, how many law. enforcement officers will stick their. neck out if they think their partner. overstepped their boundaries and got. someone to admit to something that maybe.

they did or didn't do, withheld evidence. that may or may not have exonerated. someone. Like there's steps along the. way on the road to evil, right? And and. no one gets rewarded for sticking their. neck out or for holding their friends. accountable. Yeah. you get exa I mean. you you. get excommunicated from your tribe it's. very dangerous you know the so how do we. motivate any other like how do you it's. a real problem it's a it's a giant.

conundrum it's a real problem in in the. way this the system is structured and. the feeling that you have to like in. order to do the right thing you just. have to switch sides like that really. bothers me also because like one thing. that I have I would love to see more of. is more of like a collaboration between. victim's rights advocates and innocence. rights advocates. Um, but like oftent. times you see us sort of pitted against. each other as if like you.

know I've always felt that the the. criminal justice system never did enough. for victims. um that like the only compensation that. victims are really given is the idea. that you're going to punish the. perpetrator. And I've always wanted to. know how is the system how is the system. going to help the victim rebuild their. life and take back and like reclaim what. can be reclaimed of their experience and.

and and be uplifted. And well that's. supposedly where the civil. supposedly but like you're you're you're. suing the person who committed the crime. and are you ever actually going to get. any money from them? Are you like Well, sometimes money is awarded to families. by the. state you know there's those but I mean. is that enough? Like is money's is that. enough? You know I don't think so. I. think that people need more support than.

that. What is the support though? Like what. would make it right? Well, I think overhaul the system. Yeah. Really the only way to to truly make it. right is to find I mean if you're if. you're a person like I think your. approach to this all this radical. acceptance and forgiveness is very very. very beautiful. It's it's amazing that. you can do it. It's amazing that you. think the way you think. And you know I. used you as an example the other We're.

having this conversation about um. uh horrible things that have happened to. people that have made that person a. beautiful person because you you went. through this insane thing, but on the. other end of it, you came out this like. really interesting person. Oh, very. much. You really are. You I used you as. an example. of things that don't break you, but that. you would never want to wish on anyone. else. But then the result of that is. this person comes out extraordinary.

Yeah. I mean that's a lot of the. obstacles the way kind of stuff. I mean, it's a lot of stuff that I write about. in the book actually is one of the. things that my goal with this book was. to try to like yes, what happened to me. is like, oh, crazy story happened to a. girl one time, but also there are like. universal lessons and truths that I've. derived from my from my experience that. make me and when I communicate them, they make me feel less ostracized or. less like singled out as a human being.

And one of those is like there is. opportunity in every tragedy. Um, and I. think that what my tragedy challenged me. to do. was to not be broken by it. And my. definition of being broken by it was. coming out of. it. A person who was angry and and.

embittered and and. diminished by this experience. And I. just the the rebellious side of me was. like, "Fuck that. What matters to me? What matters to me is the truth and is. compassion, curiosity, compassion. Those. are things that I genuinely care about. and having the.

courage. to approach human beings and situations. that are painful and that are. wrong with the open heart that it. requires to have compassion and genuine. curiosity. That is what I wanted to. define me. I did not want this horrible. experience to define me on its terms. I. wanted to define me on my own terms. And. I think the challenge that any one of us.

has is remembering what even our terms. are when we're feeling sort of. overwhelmed with the the existential. crisis of it all. And and the and the. and the I think the one of the biggest. mistakes that people make is they are. stuck. They are fixated. They dwell on. the life that they should have lived. instead. of acknowledging and accepting that this.

is the life that they are living. And. when you are acting in the world as if. you are living the life that you should. have lived, you are inevitably becoming. ineffective. Like if I were to approach. the world and be like, "My prosecutor. never should have done this to me and. and my I I I never should have gone to. prison and people never should have. villainized me in the press." I would. just find myself debilitated, utterly. debilitated by the fact that reality is. other than that. And I would just find. myself angry and and and.

and bitter about it all. And instead, I. go, "Well, all of that happened. Now. what? And by accepting reality and life. as it is, I can now become in a more. effective agent in my life. I don't want. to live my life acting and feeling and. thinking in ways that are not going to. be effective. And so instead, what. happens and the radical acceptance of it.

all is truly coming from a place. of not I'm not trying to be Christian. about it. I'm just trying to like not be. the completely and utterly overwhelmed. and dis-empowered person that I was when. I was in prison. Like I I lost so much. I I had so little control of my. life. And I think in the end all of us.

do. I feel like I weirdly had a midlife. crisis when I was 20 because my entire. life fell apart or I was on I was I was. put on this this track, this train that. just like left the station and was going. on its own and there was really nothing. I could do to stop it. And so, okay, now. what? That's a great way to put it. Like. you're on a train that you can't stop. Yeah. I mean, what you've done is.

admirable. I mean the the the approach. that you take is really I mean if is it. admirable? Is it self- serving? Like is. it just like it's not self- serving. I. mean obviously it's self- serving but. that's a good thing. I mean you're. serving yourself in the best possible. way and to to not be completely defined. by you're being victimized. You you've. risen above it. I mean, just the fact. that you contacted the prosecutor and. and tried to reach out and talk to him.

as a human being and try to find out and. accept him where he's at. Yeah. Like. this is where you're at. Well, he's a. kind of a victim in in a way because he. shouldn't have had the kind of power. that he had. uh he there's no way to. tell like there there's no no checks and. balances that are put in place to make. sure the person's ego is not. overwhelming them to the point where. their initial idea of a conspiracy this. and he's also not in a vacuum like there. were other people around him who were. like building building him up and.

supporting that story and and you know. like well it's also like he's in a. position of power they're underneath him. you know there's this weird structure. that's in place. yeah All of that can be true. Yeah. All. that and I can accept that as also true. And I think there's this like weird. resistance that people have to accepting. the context around a person. Maybe. because you you realize that if you. accept the context around the person,

that feeling of self-righteousness that. you're ultimately grasping. onto dissipates because it does. inevitably dissipate. But I think that's. again a per that's a symptom of someone. dwelling on the life that they should. have lived right instead of accepting. the life that they have right um and I. just find that to be a waste of time. It. is not just a waste of time it's the. opposite of self- serving. It kind of. destroys you from within because you. know it's not true right. Yeah. And so.

you're bullshitting yourself as you're. bullshitting the world and that's who. you are now. Yeah. that I think that is. a scary trap that victims can fall into. is like how you then become. selfdestructive in your own mind as a. result of someone having been. destructive towards you. That is I think. that is the deepest tragedy of of hurt.

is how it can then become. implosive. And I did not want to. implode. I was scared to implode. I saw. a lot of people around me in prison. imploding and I did not want that to be. me. It's insane mental resolve to not. and that's it's the trap that most. people are going to fall into and in a. to a lesser extent he's a victim as. well. He's a victim of his own actions. and he'll it will haunt. I mean, he's. defined by that as well. Now,

particularly that everybody knows that. you're innocent and that you you've been. proven innocent. And then in the. retrial, you got proven again. And so, that's him. That's over his head. Everywhere he goes, he wrongly. prosecuted and jailed you for a murder. you did not commit. And he has to live. with that every day when he wakes up and. he looks in the mirror. That's who you. are, [ __ ] forever. And you could dance. around, you know, I was doing my job and.

this you can you can have, you know, that's that's where you kind of try to. find some sort of No, no, you did this. thing. You were wrong. you, your ego, whatever the [ __ ] it was that led you. to come up with the initial theory and. then try to use confirmation bias. to reinforce it at every step of the. way. That's you. And if if he doesn't.

admit that, he will go to his grave. haunted. And I I think what's a really. interesting thing for me is. discovering what can come from. approaching someone recognizing that. So when I approached him, I approached. him in a really unconventional way, right? Like I'm trying to find common. ground with this person. I'm trying to I. very I'm deeply genuinely curious about.

this person. I am primed to feel. compassion for this person because that. is just the mental and intentional space. that I put myself. in approaching. him and the surprising dividends that. arise from that because I think everyone. is. evolving. No one is static. Even he is. on his own journey. He's on his own path. and I'm not in control of his path. But. that doesn't mean that I can't be a very.

compelling influence of all the people. in the world who could be nice to him. and have that have an impact on. him. Me and like recognizing like I. didn't really fully comprehend that. until I sat down with him and like I had. sort of in my. mind I I realized what it looked like. from my position. like here's this. person who had this overwhelming impact.

on my life and and to this day like. continually like this story that he made. up like took over my life and continues. to take over my life. Like this is what. I'm going to live with for the rest of. my life is because of him. This person. who has had this outsized influence on. my well-being and my my personhood and. my existence. this. guy. I sit down across from. him and I'm nice to. him. and I walk away from that encounter.

realizing that his well-being depends on. me much more so than my well-being. depends on him. And I think because deep. down he understands that there is this. dynamic that you know whatever stories. he can tell himself about what. happened, he was the one who was in. power and I was the one who went to.

prison. And for. me to be kind to. him, I didn't have to do that. He had never had it happen before. It. was unheard of. And as a spiritual. person, he experienced it in a spiritual. way. Me, I came out of that experience. feeling like a [ __ ] superhero. I have.

never felt more powerful in my life than. when I sat across from him and was kind. to him. And it didn't matter what he. said or what he did because I showed. up. And that was I was not expecting that to. happen. That was not how I expected to. feel. It surprised. me. But like it had such an impact on me.

that I felt like I had discovered. something about. about trauma and and about healing and. and about people and dynamics and in a. world that is so conflicted and where. the people are, you know, not building. bridges, they're blowing them up. I was. like I wanted to remind people of what. happens when you when you take a chance.

and you take a stand. Yeah. Well, that kind of kindness is. rewarded by the universe and that was. the feeling that you got like that you. were on the right path to like the best. possible person that you could be. What. would the best possible version of you. do? And you did that and then you had. that feeling because of that. That was. the universe telling you right this is.

the best thing you can do. You could. yell at that guy and call him a piece of. [ __ ] and slap him in the face and feel. justified in doing so. And you would be. and that might even feel a little good. in a way but it wouldn't feel like that. good. Yeah. Negativity. always, no matter what, leaves you with. this. residue, this like icky, even if you're. correct. This just like slime that's on.

the psychic slime, right? That's on you. no matter what. Yeah. And that's your. power that you could sit across this. person and treat them with. compassion and that's why you felt that. way. You know, it's like, have you ever felt. that way? I've never had anything. remotely like your situation. But you've had you've had encounters. with people like I don't think you have. to have as devastating of a situation to.

like be in a position to know that. you're doing the right thing in a. moment. Like for instance, when my. husband got up in his whitey tidies and. walked down the stairs to put himself. between me and my fam and his family and. this crazy guy, I feel like maybe he. felt that in that moment, like. total clarity of. purpose. and it didn't really matter what.

happened because he was doing the thing. that had to be done in that moment. And. there was no confusion. I think that. like when I talk about it with him. today, like to this day, he's just like. I was just not confused. I just knew. exactly what I needed. I didn't even. think it it was that flow state even. that they talk about like how when like. you you and the universe are moving in. the exact in in sync. Yeah. And that.

that was my version of it. That was his. version of it. And I think that all of. us have the opportunity to glimpse that. in our lives. And I'm just curious if. you've ever felt like you were moving in. sync with the universe. I try to be. Yeah. But again, I haven't. You still. feel kind of slimy. Well, I've had moments where I haven't. I've had moments where I was very. negative and attacked back and I never. feel good about it. You know, it's one. of the reasons why I don't engage with.

people online that are negative. I just. I don't you know especially particularly. like the lowest level of it is social. media you know uh I'm not interested in. conflict. I'm not interested in it. I. don't want to do it. You know even if. someone has negative things to say about. me I'm not really interested in. engaging. I don't think it's valuable. You know I think it's a trap. Yeah. But. it's not the same situation as what you. were in. I don't know how I would be. I.

would cuz the other danger is. like you know I I don't want to consider. myself above criticism say like that's I. think the the other flip side of that of. like of having confidence is potentially. having the confidence that my prosecutor. had when was he feeling in sync with the. universe when he was prosecuting me? Did. he? Clearly not. There's no way. No. That but that's not confidence. That's. ego. Confidence is an objective analysis.

of all the. facts. Doing the right thing, having a. rock solid ethical and moral foundation. and knowing you're doing the right thing. and knowing you can do it. That's. confidence. What he had was ego. You. know, this desire to, you know, when. people are in a position like that where. people's. freedom hangs on your decisions and what.

you do and what you don't do and then. you do it for so many years and you see. so many people prosecuted, you just get. calloused about it. You see it with. doctors where doctors don't you know. they they have this some not all some. doctors develop this very callous. feeling whether someone lives or dies. they don't care anymore they're so used. to people dying you know I mean there's. doctors that do surgeries that are. completely unnecessary just because they.

want the money you know we were talking. the other day about this guy who is a. oncologist who um treated people with. chemotherapy who did not have cancer. because he wanted the money. Wow. And it. was he was convicted. It was like I. think it was some insane number of. people took this horrible poison to try. to kill the cancer inside of them and. ruin their lives and ruin and and there. was nothing wrong with them. Wow. Yeah. Because there's and I think his. justification was even more sick. His.

justification was that he was always. taught that you eat what you kill. And. in that business in the business of. being a surgeon and a be business of. being a doctor like you have to perform. this medicine in order to get money and. this is the incentive structure that's. put in front of you. I don't know if you. know that but uh chemotherapy is one of. the most profitable things that a doctor. can prescribe. They actually get an. enormous amount of money from each. individual person that they Yeah.

There's there's all sorts of very. twisted and bizarre financial. incentives. Again, these institutions. that get warped by these various. Exactly. I mean, this is the case with. vaccinations. This is the case with. prescriptions of of various medicines. There's kickbacks and these kickbacks. become incentives and you know and then. you have the overwhelming burden of the. financial responsibility that you have. with your medical school debt and then. you have uh malpractice insurance which.

is overwhelming. You have overhead, you. have staff, you have a bunch of people. and then people start justifying things. in a very twisted way and it's because. of the system and you have to be an. incredibly powerful person to rise above. that and to say this is not what I'm. going to do even if it means I can't do. this anymore. I'm not doing this. And. then the the weakest amongst us just in. instead they go the other way and say. I'll justify what no one is going to. know. I'll say yeah you got cancer.

Yeah, I'm sorry. you know, we're just. gonna I'm gonna give her a low dose of. chemotherapy for like six weeks. Just. like, you know, whatever. No big deal. Yeah. Just destroy your body from this. And then just like this godlike power. that you know that you are imposing this. medication on this person that. absolutely does not need it and that. person doesn't know any better. Yeah, that's [ __ ] dark. Um, well, you could. go darker. You go darker with medical. transition of children. you know, this. uh this whole gender affirming care.

thing where you're taking young kids and. convincing them they need to be. chemically castrated or physically. castrated, right? There's that's there. there's a a lot of weirdness in in the. world. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of. there's evil is a real thing and that. the motivation to do these things can be. very very hidden and masked with all. sorts of incentives and the structure in. which this institution was sort of. created and that's that's the world. we're living in and it's not a good.

world. It's not it's not a perfect. world, you know? It's not like this is. ideal. This is how it should be. No, it's not like that. There's money is a. weird [ __ ] thing. Money and power are. two very, very weird things. And. without some sort of a higher power that. you call upon or some sort of a higher. power that you are beholden to and that. you have to answer to, it's very. difficult for people to. make decisions if they know they're not.

going to get caught. If they know. they're not going to get in trouble. If. you're a prosecutor and you're beyond. reproach and all you have to do and the. system protects you and everyone's. protecting you and not only that, once. the wheels are in motion, the train's on. the track, we can't turn the train. around. What do you want to do? Well, the [ __ ] train has to be on the. track. So, uh, she's got to go to jail, I guess. Yeah. And there you go. Can I. tell you something I'm conflicted about? Sure. So, um, you know, my book's been out, uh,

for a month or so now, and I'm also, you. know, working on, I don't know if you. knew this, I have a Hulu show that I'm. working on that's based on my life. Um, yeah, uh, Monica is executive producing. it. Monica Lewinsky is executive. producing it. Um, and I'm really proud. of it. It's it's um it goes it's coming. out at the end of uh at the end of the. summer, late summer. And um but one of. the things that like one of the. responses that I've had to my book and.

to the you know the news that I'm. telling my story in this way or in. another way and I write about this in. the book is this question of. um do I have the right to tell my story. and um what. who's saying that? Well, um, people who believe that I'm not the. real victim of the story. The real.

victim is my roommate who was murdered. And that unless I have the blessing of. Meredith's family to tell my story, that. I should shut up and disappear out of. respect. That's crazy. You're a victim. Period. Full stop. No if ends, or buts. You were 20 years old. I was 20 years. old. You're a victim. Period. You didn't.

commit a murder. You went to jail for a. murder. You're a victim. Period. [ __ ]. those people. Are they even real people? Have you talked to those people? Are. they humans? I mean, have you been in. front of them or are you just reading. things? I mean, I reading things online, journalists certainly who have. interviewed me. I I get this. I get this. a lot. I get this a lot. Um, from who? from people who I feel like are. suffering from something I call the. single victim fallacy. This like idea. that like you have to decide who's the. real victim. Oh, there's a victim.

hierarchy. You're not the greatest. victim because you're still alive, right? You weren't raped and murdered, so you're still alive, so you're fine. Like, that is ridiculous. If that's a. journalist that's saying that to you, I. would just leave the room. I would be. like, well, well, I'm trying to have a. conversation with these people about it. about that. That's a preposterous. position to tell a 20-year-old that went. to jail for years for a crime they. didn't commit and had their whole life. publicly publicly ruined worldwide in a.

country you don't even live in or you're. not even from. [ __ ] that person. That's. a crazy position. And if they're just. trying to do that. to, you know, just get a rise out of. you, to get a reaction, to try to like. they're bad. They're bad at what they. do. It's it's a bad person. The idea. that you're not a victim is. preposterous. That's a crazy position. An actual human being sat in front of. you and was saying that. So, it's it. comes in different forms. So, some.

people are very explicit and say. like, "Don't you think you shouldn't be. doing this when the Kercher family's. lawyer says that you shouldn't be doing. this?" And then it's So, they're saying. this to your face. Yeah. Yeah. And then. I have to sit. there and again do. like experience the rage that washes. over me and then go how do I have an. effective conversation with this human. being? How do I convey that my life.

matters too and that there's room in. this world to acknowledge all of the. truth of what happened which included my. own victimization and my own story and. the things that I've learned from it. that I've had the privilege to learn. from it because I'm still alive. That. that's such a crazy position. That's. like saying if you were in the Twin. Towers and you got out right before it. collapsed, you should shut the [ __ ] up, right? because you didn't because you. didn't die like all those other people.

that were inside of it. That's. ridiculous. He's still your life. It's. still your real lived reality. And the. lawyer for the family that's telling you. that you shouldn't be talking about it, [ __ ] that guy, too. That's crazy. That's. a crazy position. You You can't listen. to that. You're going to get the most. preposterous takes because you're. dealing with something that millions of. people are commenting on. So the idea. that you're every one of them is going.

to be a rational position, that's not. real. People are silly. Like people are. weird. They have crazy takes on. everything. There's all sorts of. personal justifications and mental. illness and there's people who hate. women. There's people that, you know, whatever. They law enforcement's always. right. You're always gonna have. ridiculous takes if you get a billion. takes on things. That's your world. No,

you shouldn't be struggling with that at. all. That's crazy. Anybody who says you. shouldn't be talking about it, but. [ __ ] of course you should be because. there's a lot to be learned. There's a. lot to be learned from, first of all, the admirable positions that you've. taken. The way you've formed your life. and who you are as a human being because. of your struggle, because of this insane. experience that you had to go through at. [ __ ] 20 years old. Your brain's not. even fully formed. It's insane. Your. frontal cortex is not fully formed. And.

for someone to say that you you you're. not the real victim. Well, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's a this is a stupid. position. Well, we shouldn't be. conflicted in any way, shape, or form. about that. And I think. there's a great deal that we can learn. from your experiences. First of all, again, learn from the way that you've. handled it where you can sit across from. that prosecutor and this feeling of like. being kind to this person who did this.

thing to you, how it made you empowered. I really do think that's the universe. telling you you're on the right track. You just can't listen to the peanut. gallery. You can't listen to all the. noise. There's just too much noise. And. you you have to learn how to do that on. a much lesser scale. I I see that with. friends who are famous who read comments. about them or read articles and get. infuriated. It ruins vacations because. they have to type up a response or you.

know the impulse to respond is like You. don't have to. Not only do you not. should you not respond, you shouldn't. read what they're saying in the first. place. You shouldn't pay attention. Is. there ever like I I wonder if the fear. is and maybe this is my fear cuz I'm. always questioning myself is like is. there I always want to like at. least hear it and like cycle the thought. through my mind so that I can test the.

validity of it in my mind. Yes, there's. definitely that. Sure. But to a point, you should probably do that yourself. without those people. That's the best. way. The best way is to have an internal. auditing system where you look at your. own life and say, did what did I do that. I could have done better? Right? And. what what what about is there anything. about what I'm doing that feels icky? Right? Is there anything about the way. I'm capitalizing on this that feels icky.

or feels conflicted? Is there anything. about it that I don't like? Right? But. just do that yourself. You don't you're. a smart person. You don't need all those. other opinions to where you have to. like, you know, let's take email today. from all Amanda Knox haters. Like you. don't have to do that. Fair. Yeah. And. thankfully my husband is the one who. takes the brunt of that and he shouldn't. do it either. Yeah. Let me help.

As a person who's been famous for a long. time, don't do it. Okay. Fair. There's. no value in it. There's zero value in. it. I mean, there's times where I was. forced into responding like during the. whole COVID situation when CNN was. saying I was taking veterinary medicine. and and you were like, I need to clarify. reality or not. Also, I need to say, hey, [ __ ] you. Because the world should. say [ __ ] you. You're not supposed to be. able to do that. You're not supposed to. be able to be the news and lie and then. hold yourself to this moral high ground. and say we have to stop misinformation.

What about you, [ __ ] Like, what. about you? You know, and so there's. that. Like, I've had to respond in that. way. But I mean, if I responded to. everything that everybody ever says. about me, I'd have no time for my. children, for my family, for my life, for my job. I I would have no time for. anything. Like, you can't do it. You. just you have to have an internal. auditing system where you look at. yourself and you have to be your own. worst judge. You know, anything anybody.

says about me that tries to make me feel. bad, well, guess what? I'm way harsher. to me than you are. And I know me, you. know, and that's you know, all the dark. thoughts and the slimy feelings. But. that's why I work really hard to be a. good person. I work really hard to be a. good person because I don't like those. feelings. I don't like the when I judge. myself and I find myself to be lacking. I don't like it. So I institute a lot of. self-discipline and I institute a lot of. introspective thinking. Yeah. What is.

your what's your auditing like what's. your self- auditing process? Well, first of all, it's like why are. you doing what you're doing with your. life? Like what are why why do you why. do you do a podcast? Why do you do. comedy? Why do you do anything? Why do. you do what you do? I So, the best way I. approach it is I do it because I love. what I do. I'm intrigued. I'm curious.

and I do my best. Always do my best. Now, if I halfass something, it will. haunt me. Like if I have a bad podcast. interview, if I don't if I think I. interrupted too much or if I didn't ask. the right questions, like that'll [ __ ]. with me for the rest of the day. Like I. don't need other people to [ __ ] with me. I [ __ ] with myself. I really do. I So I. So the best response to that is do. better every time. Every time. Like sit. when you sit down, be as open as. possible. Try to like don't let all.

these little weird mind [ __ ] things. enter into your head. Just try to be pure. Try to be genuinely. curious like what's your genuine. feelings about these things? And then. did you did you handle it well? If you. didn't, what could you have done better? Right. Well, then work on that. Yeah. And that's all you can do. I think one. of the things that I am I worry about. is that.

people only feel safe when they're. either being self-righteous or when they. are being cynical. Yeah. And like. genuine compassion or curiosity is. looked down upon as naive and a w and a. weakness. Mhm. And but I feel like the. only way to be truly. ethical is to be exposed in that way.

Cyn cynicism and self-righteousness are. shields. They are ways of approaching. the world with with with a barrier. Yes. And absolutely. And so I. I and I can't promise anyone that doing. things my way, which is like really. trying to like push back against those. impulses, which I recognize as being. dangerous. impulses, is going to necessarily lead. to good things. Like it's led it's not.

your job to promise people that. It's. not your job. It's your job is for you, for your your soul, whoever you are. It's to speak to what what is the right. path for you. You don't you're not you. don't have to promise these people. This. is the burden of being a public figure. Like you're not you're not a role model. for all these people. If you are a role. model for these people because they find. you admirable, that's great. But your. responsibility is to your yourself. Your.

responsibility is to your own mind and. the people that you come in contact. with. So your your responsibility is not. to like say like don't be cynical, be. kind, and oh it didn't work out for you. Oh [ __ ] I [ __ ] up. It's me. It's on. me. No, it's on them. It's on them. It's. on you. Everyone has their own soul, their own mind, their own path, and you. have to find out what's right for you in. doing what you're doing. You are most. certainly a role model, and you most.

certainly will be a role model for. including me. I I find. myself admiring like when we had the. first podcast I thought about it for a. long time. I would think about it all. throughout the day sometimes like. randomly I would just think. about imagining myself in your position. and how would I be and I I you. know I don't know I I can't answer it. but I I admire the position that you've. taken. I think it's incredible. I think. it's a.

great I it's a great example to the. world of what's possible if someone is. thrust into a horrible position that's. totally beyond their control. But what. is in your control? What's in your. control is how you respond to it. Mhm. And how you responded to it was. incredibly admirable. That's that's your. responsibilities to yourself and you did. a great job with it. A fantastic job. Exemplary. I don't think there's anybody. else that I could point to that's ever. been through anything even remotely. close to what you've been through and.

come out the way you have. The only. examples that maybe I could point to are. some of the people that have dealt with. through Josh where we brought people in. that were wrongly accused that went. through these horrible incarcerations. and came out on the other side. these. incredibly well- readad, brilliant, articulate people that are so thoughtful. and so introspect and so and can and. then made that time in prison empower. them. It can be done and those are those are.

examples but the responsibility is to. yourself. It's not to these other. people. I guess like I I think that's so. I mean thank you. Um, and I agree like. I've met very incredible people who have. made the most of a bad situation, which. ultimately that's what it comes down to. I guess my one push back might be that I. have come to realize that we are so. interconnected like we are all. influencing each other constantly. Yes.

And so on the one hand, yes, I'm only. answerable ultimately to myself, but. when I really sit down and like sit with. it, like part of the reason why I was. able to approach my prosecutor with the. perspective that I had was realizing. that like there is a fluidity between us. and all of us where we're all. influencing each other and people in his.

life have now like the influences in his. life. People I will never have. met have have had direct influences in. my life because it's been like this. fluid path like this connectedness. between me and him, me and you. Any any. person we talk to, any person we. encounter is going to then have this. ripple effect. And so on the one hand, yes, like I'm a drop, but I'm also a. drop in an ocean that has a ripple. effect. And that ripple is going to. interact with your ripple and and all. these other ripples. And and so yes, I.

am answerable to. myself, but I also feel like I can't. ignore the potential impact that my. ripple might have on another person. And. I've been really rewarded in the way. that I have I've been comm those ripples. have been communicated to me. Like I've. had someone tell me that they didn't. kill themselves because one day they. heard me, you know, in an interview and.

and like that they were going to kill. themselves and then they didn't. And. like I've had someone tell me that. And. like I never in my wildest dreams. thought that me just deciding to like. have a conversation with someone one day. on a podcast would save a human being's. life. But like those are those like the. interconnected fluidness of all of us. that like I also can't discount. You. should and that I think about a lot. Well, you should. I mean, you are an.

example. I mean, we are all an example. And if you're a public example or we. right now, both of us are public. examples. We're we're two human beings. that are communicating right now to. millions of people. It's kind of [ __ ]. up if you really think about it. What are we doing? I know, but we're. what we are. We're we're being real. people publicly. So you you we're. thinking publicly, you know, and um that.

is very beneficial to other people that. are thinking privately because you get. to hear people think publicly and. especially a person like you that's very. exemplary and that I would love if more. people could follow that line of. thinking and your example. It's it's a. beautiful example of someone who did. nothing wrong but had wrong done to them. and came out a better person because of.

it. And. that's that's it's not just. inspirational, it's aspirational. It's. it's a it it it it provides the universe. with positive energy in a weird way, the. human universe. I mean, and and this. this thing that you said I think is very. important. this um people protect. themselves with cynicism and. with people that like constantly want to.

criticize things. They're constantly. criticizing things, finding fault. You're you're you're also you're. ignoring your own life. That's a part of. what's really going on. The the real. things are in inside their own life. There must be things they're ignoring. if they're spending that much time. focusing on external factors like that. and other people and other people's. flaws and other people's things, other. people's especially like trivial. nonsensical things like celebrity beefs. Oh, I know. You know, you know what I. mean? It's like what are you doing with.

your [ __ ] lives? Like you don't It's. like I just don't know how anyone has. the time, honestly. Like as a It's. because they're losers. And this is the. reality of like some people don't want. to hear this cuz you're a loser, you. know? And it sucks being a loser. I've. been a loser. I've been a loser many. times in my life. You're a loser. If. you're doing that because you are on. with your own decisions becoming a. loser, you're deciding to be a loser by. focusing this precious energy that you.

have in life on [ __ ] that should mean. nothing to you. Is there like a a is. there are they thinking that they're. being effective agents in the world by. participating in it? That's the con. That's the con, right? That's the con. Like, yeah, by taking them down a notch. I'm Yeah, I'm a part of something and. I'm and I'm accomplishing something. Yeah, you're not you're not you're not. It's cynicism. It's it's uh it's, you.

know, the flag of moral virtue that. you're you're waving to show that you're. better than other people, but in doing. so, you're attacking that person, which. is inherently evil. Like you you're. you're using this justification that. you're correct to try to ruin someone's. lives or ruin someone's reputation or. ruin someone's feelings, to hurt them. that day, to reach out to them and. attack. And it's almost always based on. a feeling of personal inadequacy. almost. always based on your life is not what.

you want it to be. You know, the pe. people leaving horrible comments on. someone's Instagram page or Twitter. page, there's no way. you're living the life that you want to. live. There's no way that you're in an. ideal situation of love and harmony and. success and you know you have great. friends and life is amazing but yeah. this [ __ ] fat [ __ ] you know, like. there's no way. There's no way if you're. typing those things there's no way like.

that. It's a it's a a human flaw and. it's accentuated by this disconnect that. comes with social media. This disconnect. of being able to send a message to. someone and have no consequence. no. consequences and no social cues not to. see the person read it and get hurt by. it, you know. You're like sending little. bombs over the fence like Yeah, we are. primed to be psychopaths in. uh our our algorithms have primed us to.

be psychopaths. Um and. that worries me. But if you're but. that's like a disempowering position, you know, like you don't have to be you. don't have to do that. Like it's no. one's compelling you to do that. I don't. do that. Why are you doing that? Like. why do it? You don't have to do it then. This is the example that you can lead. for for other people. If you are talking. and speaking publicly, just don't do. that. It's not good for you. It's not. good for it doesn't help anybody. Hurting someone that you don't even.

know, that doesn't help you. You should. be you have I always try to this is what. I tell my friends when I talk about uh. reading comments and reading things and. engaging with social media because I. have friends where it it'll like ruin. their week, ruin their day. Like one. comment will [ __ ] them up and they and. they'll come to me and talk to me about. it. I'm like listen I want you to think. about your mind and your attention like. it's a number like it's you have energy. and like like a battery, right? you have.

or bandwidth that's on a a broadband. cable, right? You have a hundred units. If you're spending 30 units of your. precious time concentrating on someone. who's saying something that's not even. true, that's mean and horrible and it's. the worst possible, least charitable. position on you, right? You're robbing. yourself of these precious units of. attention. You have a hundred units. You. should your 100 units should be all on. loved ones and friends and things that.

you love to do and life. That's what. your units should be used for. And if. some of that sneaks in and it resonates. and you go, "Oh my god, they're right.". Well, [ __ ] correct it. Figure out. what you did. Don't do that anymore. It's like it sounds so simple, but. that's it. If you if you are do. something you are doing something that. people are rightly criticizing recognize. it recognize it course correct like this.

is this is where friends are supposed to. come and play your friends are supposed. to be able to tell you Amanda. you didn't have to do that like I know. the the reason why you did it but like. don't do that like this is why this is. what I felt I felt like you overreacted. you didn't have to do that now this. person's all [ __ ] up because of it. right but your friends are not going to. define you by what they consider that. are the worst thing you've ever done. And they're going to recognize that. you're an evolving human. And I feel. like and they love you. The whole. picture of you and it's coming like. their criticism is coming from a loving.

place instead of an attacking place. And. so how do we get back to communicating. with each other, not from an adversarial. place, which automatically instigates. defensiveness and sort. of refusal to acknowledge anything, right? to a place of like genuine. openness. Well, this is gonna sound so cliche. You. have to act out of love. Like I I. reached out to a friend of mine. recently. They're doing a podcast and it.

went completely sideways and I I reached. out to him and I I sent him a text. message. I said, "Hey, man. You can't do. this. Like, this is why you're doing. that. You have to recognize that people. are listening to this. You're actually. ruining your own product by doing this. you you and and he responded back, I. know. I realized that I felt terrible. while it was happening. I got caught up. in this. thing. I got bunched up. He's like, I. got all bunched up and I just responded, I felt terrible. I was like, it's okay.

Just don't do it again, you know, cuz he. gets to have another chance. Yeah. But. and the reason why I said it to him is. cuz he's done it before and I'm like, stop doing this. Stop doing this. Like, you don't have to do this. This is. [ __ ] you up. And ultimately like if. you I hate to use like is conversation. an art form? I kind of think it is. Right. If if if people are consuming it. a skill. Yeah. If people are consuming. it is an art form. So if you're being.

overbearing and gross and like whatever. it is, it's like that you're ruining. this art that you're creating. And this. real art like that painting is art. This. is real art. This is a weird art. It's. like I don't even want to call it art. It's like a dance but with words. It's a. dance. It's a dance. It is a dance. It. is a dance. Conversation is a dance. And. this is why I have such a hard time. Like I would go on a double date with my. wife or something like that where with. people and they start talking over.

everybody else and sometimes I have to. say, "Well, stop." Like she's talking. like he's talking. Haven't you ever. listened to a podcast? What the [ __ ] are. you guys doing? It's like playing. It's. like if you were Roger Federer and. you're playing tennis with people like, "No, you can't [ __ ] hit the ball like. that." Like, what are you guys doing? You can't just do multiple balls at the. same time. Do you not listen? I know you. want to say something, but this other. person is talking right now. And you. can't just talk when you want to talk. You have to also listen. Like listening. is a part of the dance. Don't step on.

people's feet. Like, you see that foot. there? Oh, I want to put my foot there. But the foot's already there. Don't step. on their foot. This is crazy. But but. you have to step on a couple of feet to. realize, oh, I stepped on her feet. I. can't do that. You have to accidentally. [ __ ] up to realize like, okay, don't do. that again. Like back up and figure out. what you did wrong. Course correct. Can I ask you about comedy? Sure. Because I want to do comedy. I'm doing.

the way you said that. I just wanna, guys, I wanna I'm actually doing standup. on Saturday. Um, but on my on Vashan. Island, I'm doing What's Vashon Island? It's where I live. It's a little island. right outside of Seattle. That is Oh, awesome. Okay. I know where that Okay. Have you been to Bash? No, I've been to. uh Bainbridge. Oh, yeah. Okay. Bainbridge Island. Um, our island is a. little more rural than Bainbridge. Um, it's Oh, so you're doing comedy for your. community? Yeah. That's a terrible idea.

Is it? Yes. Is it? Don't do it. No. You. want strangers. Really? I feel like you. don't want to interact with those. weirdos that you live with. They I I. feel like we have a very supportive. community. I I've done it before and. it's been great. Do you have an opening. act or you just go out by yourself? No, I'm part of like it's like um this. Saturday I'm going to be a part I'm in a. lineup of people who have like seven. minute set. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, that's. safe. Seven minutes is safe. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I'm walking up there and I'm. like, how many times have you done it? Uh, this will be like the fourth or. fifth time. Um, Whitney actually was the. one who first introduced me to standup. She like I love Whitney, by the way. Can. we just can we just gush about Whitney. for a second? And I love the fact that. we both have small kids at the same. time. And I just I just love her. And so. she was the one who first recognized. like this girl's been through some [ __ ]. I bet she's [ __ ] funny. and and you.

know befriended me after I got on her. podcast and then when she did the roast. of Whitney Cummings for Only Fans, I was. her like special surprise guest and I. got to do a little bit of a roast of her. and a little bit of myself, right? Like. of course the one place that I can. finally get my comedic, you know, true. self out there is on Only Fans of All. Things. And you know, I get to be, you. know, when I go this Saturday, I get to. be the ex-con mom on the on the menu.

And that's a Pornhub search for you, you. know, like, you know, like I get to like lean. in to the tragedy of it all, but it then. goes back to that question of do people. stick you into boxes or are you allowed. to be more than what people expect you. to be? And I've, you know, in the past, not from my my own community, but from. strangers, received criticism for making. jokes about my experience. And again,

coming from that place of how dare you. joke about, you know, going to prison. for a crime you didn't commit when. you're not the real victim and whatever. Or you're or you're a true crime figure. You're a you're a you're a person who. has been I associate you with a tragedy. Therefore, you have to stay in tragedy. space and moving into comedic space is. not allowed. And so, I'm just curious. what your thoughts are about that. That's the same thing. You're dealing. with commenters. Like, you can't listen.

I just just want to do my thing and mind. business. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If I. listened, I would have never done. anything I've done. If I listen to. people, I've would have never done. anything that I've done ever. Not one. thing. But we should. Yeah. Okay. I. would have never fought. I would never. got into martial arts. I never would. have fought. I never would have done. standup comedy. I never would have done. a podcast. Even my own wife jokes around about it. because when my kids were really little, there was one time where my wife wanted.

to go to Disneyland and I said, "I. can't. I have to do a podcast." She. goes, "No, you want to do a podcast." I. go, "No, I I I have to. I told the. people that I was going to do it, so I. have to do it." I committed. But back. then it was it made no money. It was. just like nonsense thing that I was. doing on the internet. like what are you. doing? And to this day, we laugh about. it like thank god you didn't listen to. me. But I don't listen to anybody. I listen. to me. I listen to my own mind if I want. to do like I would have never moved to. Austin. Like I moved to Austin in the.

middle of this giant Spotify deal and. they were like what are you doing? Like. you like what? Like so they gave me all. this money and I'm like I'm going to. leave LA. They're like what? Like how. are you going to get guests? I'm like. I'm flying them in anyway. Like who. cares? I got I want to do what I want to. do. I'm going to just do it. I have a I. have a little [ __ ] compass. It's like. right as if also as if everyone only. lives in LA and you weren't like the. only people worth talking to are going. to be in LA. Also, I was like I would. rather be broke and not live under the.

the thumb of [ __ ] government than. than stay in LA and have a successful. career. Like, [ __ ] you. I'll just do. standup and travel the country and just. live in the middle of it. I'm not doing. this anymore. I mean, you can't tell me. I can't work. You can't tell me I can't. go out. You can't tell me I have to put. a mask on when I'm walking the dog. [ __ ]. you. Like, the whole thing was just. like, I'm out. I'm getting out of here. And, you know, moving to Austin was a. crazy risk, you know, like to opening up.

a comedy club. Everybody's always told. me, I've always told people, be nice to. comedy club owners because you don't. want to be one of them. Like, you want. to deal with us? want to deal with a. bunch of [ __ ] crazy people. that travel the country. Half of them. are on drugs. They're all narcissists. and [ __ ] insane people and they're. all just like just their whole day. You're really selling being a comedian. right now. Yeah. Well, just being. honest. They just half their mind most.

of the day is trying to figure out. things that are [ __ ] up enough to talk. about on stage. Like, and how do how do. I phrase this? How do I structure it? What's a way to get into people's heads. with this idea? How do I how do I make. it really funny? Like what what's the. best way to do it? And like that's a. crazy way to live. Like you don't want. those people to be your primary source. of income because like with a comedy. club owner, all you have is what the.

artists create. That's all you're. selling. Otherwise, you just have a box. You have a box of the microphone and. you're selling drinks. All you have is. other people's creation. And those. people, half of them are [ __ ] insane. Like, you don't want to be one of those. But then I came out here and I was like, "God damn it, I have to be one of those. now.". No regrets. No. No. It worked out great. I mean, I went to your show last night. It was super fun. Thank you. Yeah. Thank. you. Great. Glad you had a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to just do.

what you think you want to do and then. just do the best version of it you can. But to listen to people say you. shouldn't be making jokes because you're. a tragic figure. [ __ ]. you. Who says who says you? Let me look. at your life, [ __ ] Let me let me go. through your [ __ ] pathetic mind and. find out what weird justifications. you're making for the way you think and. behave. Like you're not in any position. to be giving out advice. And most of. those people are not in any position to. give out to be giving out advice. Yeah.

And I do worry about people's lack of. imagination. It's like I don't know. I've I've had enough taken away from me. that I am not going to be limited by a. lack of imagination. Absolutely. So, and. it's also people don't want you to. succeed. You know, that sucks. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Because because they're not succeeding. It's all it is. People that are. succeeding for the most part want you to. succeed up until you get to their level. and you're like, "Hey, hey, you're. you're buttoning up on my success." Is.

there a limited amount of success in the. world? No. Why then? Well, because. they're fools. And it's famine thinking. It's a famine mentality. And you could. either think in terms of abundance or. famine, you know. But it's a real. problem with uh comedians. Comedians. that criticize other comedians. Kind of. crazy that they're only criticizing the. ones that are way more successful than. them. Seems odd. Convenient. Seems. weird. But they don't think about it.

that way. They just look at this other. person that's getting a lot of attention. and they feel bad. So they think that. should be them and instead of like using. it as inspiration like, "Wow, look at. her. She's [ __ ] selling out arenas. This is crazy. What is she doing that. I'm not doing? What can I learn from. her? What can I learn from that?". Instead, they're like, "Fuck her and. [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that." And what. you're doing is stealing bandwidth from. yourself. that 100 units, you're now. spending 30 units criticizing other.

people who aren't even thinking about. you. Haha. Haha. Doing it to. yourself. And it ruins. And not only. that, but when you're doing it publicly, everybody knows what you're doing. Anybody who's really worth considering, who's an intelligent, objective person. knows exactly what your motivation is. They know why you're doing it. the least charitable takes on things and. the worst possible light that you're. shining on things and the the the worst.

descriptions of people like you know. what you're doing. You're just trying to. make up for the fact that you've fallen. short. You don't like how your path has gone. and you're you know you see someone all. of a sudden she's telling she's doing. comedy now. [ __ ] that. you know, you. shouldn't be doing cuz she shouldn't be. doing comedy. These hot takes that. people have, you know, while they're on. anti-depressants and their whole [ __ ]. world's in a tizzy. Like, shut up. You. don't have to listen. But it's okay that.

they talk. It's okay. It's like part of. the learning experience of human. culture. Like, civilization has to have. a bunch of [ __ ] people talking about. stuff and a bunch of it noise. And it's. up to you to figure out what's noise. And like well then you see someone who's. not noise and who's someone who's living. an exemplary life and go okay that's not. noise okay what's in that what's in that. like oh she met with a prosecutor wow. and she like she felt empowered you know. people are going to listen to what you.

just said about that and just like just. like when they're alone like throughout. the day when they're driving their car. when they're sitting on the train they. got to think about that. I mean I'm. still thinking about that. I'm I'm still. like trying to figure it out. And I. think that's good. I think Yeah. We're. all, like you said, we're all. interconnected. We're all learning. together, you know, and the only thing. you could do is do your best. Do your. best. Do your best. Is that the advice? Do your best. Yes. Is that is that. advice, Daddy? With everything. With.

everything. With everything. Do your. best. Be a nice person and do your best. Yeah. It's all you can do. Done and. done. Yeah. we have solved. It seems so. simple, but you know those demons will. they never sleep. They'll wake up in the. morning tapping you on the head. The. thing that again the thing that haunts. me is when people think they're doing. their best and they're not. That's what. haunts me like and that happens that. that is happening constantly is people.

convincing themselves that they're doing. their best and they're not. But then how do you get out of that. cycle of convincing yourself? because. that's where the the issue of cognitive. bias comes in and like reaffirming your. your sense of self to yourself and your. identity like I'm a good guy. I can't, you know, I can't do wrong or like uh, you know, I'm I'm a good friend, I can't. be a bad like there there are ways that. we define ourselves that makes it. impossible for ourselves to to see.

ourselves clearly. And that freaks me. out. Like I'm always afraid of that. Five grams in silent darkness. Prescribe. And you might have to do it more than. once. You might have to do a lot of. cleaning. Yeah. Clean your closet. clean. your closet, okay? Throw out all the. stupid [ __ ] But it's hard for people. because, you know, you're on this path. of momentum. Often times people are. ahead of their skis. You know, they're. on this path of and they don't know how. to stop the train that's out of the. station. Yeah. But in a much lesser.

extent because it's more in their. control, you know, in your situation, it's beyond your control. And a lot of. people, they're the [ __ ] they're at. they're the engineer, you know, they're. the ones who's in the skis. They're the. ones who are deciding to go straight. downhill, you know. It's it's uh it's. hard. It's hard. And then you have all. these things once you've sort of created. a life and you have all these pieces in. motion and then you realize like, oh my.

god, this is like kind of beyond my. control and I don't like where it's. going, but everything's still moving. It. takes a lot to pull that back and you. kind of have to slow it down in stages, you know? you have to like throw things. off the side of the car like what's go. got to get rid of this got to get rid of. that some you're going to have to cut. people out of your life sometimes. sometimes it's people sometimes certain. people they're not going to learn and I. think you know the universe provides.

them as an example of how not to live. but also as a puzzle that you need to. solve like you need to sol if this. person is continually bringing negative. things into your life and continually. tripping you up and sabotaging you. You. have to at a certain point in time. separate yourself. You have to, you. know, you got to ghost. people. As horrible as that seems, like. you can't because you don't have enough. time. Yeah. There's not enough time in. the world. Your time is very precious. And if people don't want to help.

themselves, you can't help them. True. That's very true. I've definitely found. myself in the position of not being. helpable. Um, there's a story I tell in. in the book about trusting the wrong. person and wanting to believe that they. were someone like me, someone who could. understand me, and then I realized they. were not. That's horrible when you let. someone in and you realize you [ __ ]. up. I've had that happen multiple times. Yeah, there's a lot of conart artists.

out there. There's a lot of sociopaths. There's a lot of slippery people that. they're chameleons. They're like little. cuttlefish. they kind of adapt to their. environment and slip into your world. It's dangerous. You know, there's a lot. of people that that they look at it. like like it's a like a game, like how. do I get close to this person? How do I. benefit from this relationship? How do I. make these connections? And in the.

business world, you're actually taught. to do that, right? which is you're. really crazy, which is what like no. wonder, right? It's a good word in that. way. You have to [ __ ] you know, and. you and the wife have to go out and like. pretend that like I know he's an. [ __ ] We're going to sit with him. because it's really important for my. promotion. And then, you know, that's no. wonder why CEOs become sociopaths. Like, of course, like that's part of has a. good book about that. Have you read the. psychopath test? No, I haven't. I read. the publicly shamed book though. Yeah, that's a good one, too. It's great.

Yeah. He's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's um. I mean it's a Being a human is weird. There's no guide book, you know. There's. You have the most. complex interactive machine that is. constantly adapting and changing and. it's completely variable. It's. completely variable based on your. environment. Like not just your. environment in terms of the human. beings, but even the like weather. Like.

if you live in Seattle, right? You're on. a very different wavelength than when. you're in Austin. It's true. I come here. and I feel like I'm in a bath all the. time. Just in a bath. What do you mean? It's so hot and like But and and that. like impacts me in a way where I just. feel sort of dreamy like I'm in a bath. all the time instead of That's. interesting. I've never heard it put. that way. In a bath. That's funny. That's funny. I I Yeah, I don't think.

about that way. I wanted to ask how you. slow down though, right? You're talking. about slowing down and like taking. stock. Uhhuh. And the way I do it is by. meditating, but I have found that a lot. of people are resistant to the idea of. meditating because they have certain. ideas about what meditating is. and like. it's shutting off your thoughts and it's. like well you know eventually you might. be able to do that but ultimately it's. just sitting down and noticing your. thoughts that arise. Um but I like to.

say that anyone who can masturbate can. meditate and ultimately like actually. people that can meditate maybe not be. able to masturbate because they don't. have any arms. You can still meditate. Exactly. and you get ultimately to a. similar place of like just single-minded. focus. and bliss. So go for it. Don't hold. back. Yeah. Um and the funny things that.

occur to your brain when you are. meditating like I have Okay. Can I can I. tell you something that's kind of like. off color? Sure. Well, maybe you know. this, like since becoming a mom, like my. libido. really. Oh, yeah. Just because I'm. constantly being like touched that like. the last thing I need is for my husband. to climb on me like a jungle gem. Like. it's just it's just not what's on the. menu for me. Also, you're probably tired.

all the time. I'm so tired and like I'm. just like my body is different. The. chemistry is still working itself out. Uhhuh. The one thing that reliably makes. me horny is meditating. Interesting. Isn't that wild? Huh? And you know, we. have this like term in meditation like. monkey mind, right? Like the idea being. that like when you sit down, you really. notice that your mind is going all over. the place and is just like reacting like. a monkey. But also another thing that. monkeys are famous for is just.

masturbating voraciously. And I feel. like that's also what's happening in my. mind. Like I sit down and notice like. how perverted my mind is when I'm. actually just sitting there meditating. in a nice group of people on a Sunday. morning. That's funny. So Oh, group. meditation. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's not just. like when I'm home alone like in my. intimate space. Like I'm like I feel. Yeah. This is I hope no one at my zeno. this conversation. Maybe they're going. to come up to you the next time you do.

like me too. Yes. But then you don't. want to know cuz then you're going to be. meditating like this freak is thinking. about sex too. Well, I mean and you're. sitting there and you're thinking like. what else are the uses of these floor. cushions? Like you're just like going. like all of the things in your brain and. then you're thinking am I the only one? Am interesting. Yeah. So I don't know. There's something again one of those. like weird un um unintended consequences. of just trying to like sit back and take. stock is like rediscovering parts of. yourself that are have been sort of.

diminished or made dormant because of. the the stress of existence. So another. reason why they should advertise that. I. don't know why they don't advertise that. on meditation apps. Like, is this just. It would attract the wrong people. Like, I'm trying to get. perverted. I'm trying to find my inner. pervert. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. Um, I don't. necessarily meditate that way, but I do.

incorporate a lot of voluntary. adversity. Um, a lot of it is working out. Um, you. got a lot of Buddhas around you for. someone who doesn't meditate. I know. Weird, right? Let's go with that. My. friend Duncan has some very bizarre. theories about that. I don't know. I'm. very uh drawn to that. Um. uh I do though, it's just I do it while. I'm doing other things. I've always said. that martial arts is a form of moving. meditation because it's so singular in. its focus that it requires all of your.

thoughts and it cleanses your mind. There's a bunch of things that I do, a. bunch of things that I do that do that. Archery, archery does that, oddly. enough. Archer in the art of archery. There's a reason why there's that book. Yes. There's something about because. Have you ever done archery? I have done. it because my um my brother-in-law is a. Renfair guy. He's a Renfair performer. Yeah. So cool. I'm going to Can I call. out Seattle Nights by the way? He is the.

director of the Seattle Knights. And. yes, he jousts. He like talks in I know. It's so cool. It's so cool. I love it. And I always I'm gonna go to their show. on Woodby Island this month anyway. That's funny. Yeah, they're awesome. But. yes, so yeah. Uh what were we saying? Archery. Archery. Yes. So I've done it. like in his backyard because he has all. of the medieval weaponry and. Yeah. I don't use the medieval ones. I. use modern ones. But the the the thing.

about it is that it it's very difficult. to do accurately, especially at. distance. Right. So when I practice, I. practice it. Most of the time I practice. in at about 85 yards and the amount of. movement like so if you're at full draw, so you draw the bow back, right? If. you're at full draw, if if you look at. my arm, if my arm does this, I miss by. six inches. Wait, what did you just do? This this this ah I'm missing by six.

inches at 85 yards. a slight I mean a. millimeter of movement is 4 in off. target. So you're saying that Legolos is. a badass is what I'm hearing. Who? Legalis from Lord of the Rings. Oh yeah, I'm not. I'm not. That's not a. real person. I'm applying it to human. beings. Oh, okay. Fine. That there's. this repeatable technique that you have.

to do. It involves breathing and focus. and. concentration and uh there's actually a. whole process that I go through. There's. this guy named Joel Turner who was a uh. he was a SWAT instructor and a lead guy. in hostage situations where you know. someone would like have a a child. hostage. you had to shoot the guy who. was like holding a knife to a child. And. he's he's had situations like that where.

you have to be completely focused on the. task. And so he developed this process. of talking yourself through the shot. with this you have these words that you. say and you repeat in your mind while. you're going through all of these. various techniques. So when you're. drawing a bow back, you draw back. You. have to anchor. So you put this string. in a very particular part of your mouth.

Every time my knuckle, this finger goes. underneath my jaw in the exact same. spot. Every time my elbow goes up in the. exact same spot, and then it's staying. still and concentrating on the target. and pulling through. and you can't think. about anything else. It's so. overwhelming. that you have to focus if you want to be. accurate, you have to focus only on. that. And in doing so, the world just.

goes away. The world goes away because. it requires so much of you. Martial arts. is the same thing. Like if you're doing. jiu-jitsu and you and this person are. trying to solve each other's puzzle and. you're trying you're you're essentially. trying to kill each other but in a. friendly way like you're friends but. because you can tap out you don't hurt. each other but you're it you can't be. thinking about your bills. You can't be. thinking about an argument you got in. this. Why did my dog [ __ ] on the rug?

You can't be thinking about those. things. You have to be completely. focused on what you're doing. And in. that way, like jiu-jitsu people are some. of the calmst, most chilled out people. you will ever meet in your life. First. of all, because they get all of their. aggression out. Like all the. unnecessary aggression that people carry. around with them, all this angst and. 100%, which is part of being a human. being because we're designed to run away. from predators. We're designed to hunt. and gather and look out for invading.

tribes. is like this is the genetic. sequence that evolved for hundreds of. thousands of years that we still have. It's still a part of us. These human. reward systems that are all in place, you have to honor those. And one of the. ways you have to honor those is rigorous. exercise. Whatever you like to do. You. can play squash. You could play tennis. You can run. You could do yoga. You. could lift weights. You could do. jiu-jitsu. But you have to do something. if you don't do something, you're going. to always be the most anxietyridden.

people I know are also sedentary. I. don't think that's a coincidence. And I. also always feel like whenever I'm. feeling really shitty psychologically, I. need to go for a run. Yes. Um, do you. find So, here's my question. Given that that is your like meditative. practice, do you find that in the moment. that the you release the bow and that. like that becoming one and that flow. state that you have entered into in. order to perfectly align yourself with.

the bow and the arrow. Does that moment. of release. ever result in some kind of unconscious. processing coming into your. consciousness? So like some kind of a. new awareness of something that you've. been trying to figure out and it like is. a catalyst for you figuring out what you. need like that feeling of like being in. sync with the universe and knowing what. you need to do. Do you ever find. yourself like in the moment that you are.

like immediately exiting that flow. state? Do you real do you feel more. clarity about your life or what you need. to do or or that thing that you weren't. thinking about like your to-do list or. your bills or that argument that you've. had with somebody that you care about? Like does anything come into focus or do. you find you you walk away from an. encounter in jiu-jitsu like knowing not. just feeling better emotionally but like. knowing what you need to do next? I. think more so with jiu-jitsu. Um, with.

archery it's. just, you know, because it's so hard to. do at the and it's such a singular. thing. You're just doing this one thing. over and over and over again. Like I'll. do it like a hundred times in a day. The. the the thing is like, okay, what did I. do right? What did I do wrong? Like what. why why did that shot go bad? Like what? Minute adjustments. Yeah, just minute. adjustments. And again, it's just a. clarity. I'm sorry about my throat, people. Yeah, no worries. It's um it's.

just a clarity of uh analysis of. technique and of execution. So it's it's. so overwhelming. It's so singular in in. it in in the focus that you don't really. think about anything else. So there's no. room for like oh now I know what I did. wrong in my life. Like yeah I guess I. one of the benefits that I get from. meditation is feeling like when I come. out of meditation I feel like I I have a. clarity of purpose that I might not have. had because I was I had monkey mind and.

I was busy I was distracted and I was. using my bandwidth was so much and so. you just tune down what your bandwidth. is like paying attention to and then you. re-enter the world with a renewed sense. of clarity. and you're not as distracted. You're not. on that treadmill of thought. Yeah. I. think that comes to me at least that. comes much more through rigorous. exercise. That makes sense. Yeah. That's.

the at the end of a really hard workout. and sauna and stretching. Stretching is. always great, too. That's a good time. for reflection after it's over and it's. like this wind down, cool down. And then. I'm just I always feel so much nicer. That's the one thing I really like about. it. Like after I work out, I feel so. much nicer. Like I want to be I'm a good. person now. I want I know. I just want. to be nice to people. I want to I want. to smile and say hi to everybody. Like. all the weirdness of being a man, it. just goes away. You know, the weirdness.

of being a man. I do think that I am I. do not envy you being a man. Oh my god, it's the best. I don't envy you being a. woman. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Oh, no. I. much prefer being a woman. Of course. you're a woman. I mean, testosterone is a hell of a. drug, my friend. Like, what the hell is. that? Testosterone? I don't want to deal. with that. It's interesting. But you. have some. You have more testosterone. than you have estrogen. What? Yeah. Yeah. Women have more testosterone than. they have estrogen. But I've never felt.

the impulse to punch a wall, you know? Me neither. That's stupid. Okay. Well, punch walls. Well, you have an outlet. for your punching energy, but like the I. don't I mean, what I mean is like that. innate elevate like an elevated level of. aggression that just is not like. accessible to me as as a as a woman. I. is that wrong? Am I like inaccurate in. this? I just feel like I don't know what. I would do if I wanted to just like jerk. off all the time. Like I just don't.

understand what that is. like. And that seems over like. that doesn't seem fun to deal with. Uh yeah. Well, you don't really want to. jerk off all the time unless you're a. sex addict, you know, then you probably. got other deal issues you're dealing. with. Um but the aggression. thing, it's not just like aggression for. no reason. Like you only have aggression. for a reason. Like I I never have.

aggression for like I'm never like. walking around like [ __ ] mad at. everything. There's never never it's. never the case. And um but I also I work. out a lot so I get it out. I get it out. of my system. It's just a thing like you. just have to maintain. You have you just. have to maintain your life. You have to. maintain your body. You have to. recognize you have biological needs. And as a man I think one of those needs. is you have to exercise to to just calm.

yourself to relieve anxiety. And again, that's that term that is used often, but. I think it's the right term, voluntary. adversity. You show up at class, you. work out really hard. You show up at the. gym, you work out really hard, and then. when it's over, you're like, you feel. better. You feel good. Like you're. nicer. Like strong, powerful people can. be the nicest people because they don't. have to be nice. They're being nice cuz. they want to be nice. M there's a lot of. weak, feeble men that pretend that.

they're nice, but really what they are. is just vulnerable. They're they have to. be nice cuz they don't have any choice. Like if you you and if they were in a. position of not having to then they. would they would drop the nice act. And. that's what happens. They're some of the. creepiest [ __ ] people when they have. power is like really weak men. They're. some of the scariest people and they're. the scariest people as politicians. They're just really weak men that all of. a sudden have power. I'm going to. [ __ ] show you. Like having real power.

is to be kind when you don't have to be. kind. You know what I love about being a. woman though? What that I do think is a. genuine thing and a genuine difference. is it's easier for me to be nurturing. um in the sense that like no one would. bat an eye if I saw a kid who was like I. couldn't figure out where their mom was. and I were to approach them and say come. here honey let me help you as a man like.

do you second like I know that like my. husband has told me this that like he. secondguesses like hanging out at you. know with the kids at the at the park. because someone might think that he's a. pedophile. Oh that's crazy. Hanging out. with his kids. Yeah, cuz like if you're. just like a a guy sitting on a bench and. your kids are playing, like how does. anyone know that you aren't just a guy? I think he's really overthinking things. Like, of course, you're a [ __ ] dad at. the park. That's crazy. You see other. dads at the park. You say hi. Like, it's.

like you're not a pedophile. Those are. my kids. Which How old's your kid? Like, it's normal. I've taken my kids to parks. a thousand times. You've never felt in. some way that your masculinity inhibited. your ability like your your instinct to. be like nurturing and affectionate? No. No. I think that's a weakness. Like. if you can't be nurturing and. affectionate because you think you're. masculine, that's crazy. That's just. weak. That's that's nuts. That's like a.

distortion of what strength means. Like. that's not that's not strong. That's. weak. Like, why can't you be nice? Like, why can't you be like the idea that if. you're nice and you're affectionate, you're kind that you're weak. That's. crazy. That's crazy. Especially if you. have options. Like, if you if you don't. have to be nice and you're nice, like. that's real niceness. Like, it's pure. Like, you don't have to be you don't. have to be a nice person, but you're.

nice because it's a good thing to do. Like, that it's the right way to do it. Okay. Okay. So, what's so great about. being a guy? Everything. It's awesome. We [ __ ]. build everything. We run the world. It's. great. I don't know. I I I am a guy. I mean, I. would And yet like all comes down to. trying to like get the attention of some. lady. That is all. No, I already have. the attention of a lady. I'm good. I'm. still love being a guy. It's only, you.

know, it's not like that's the primary. motivation. No. What is the primary. motivation? Fun. Fun. Fun. Yeah, life is. fun. Life should be fun. Sounds pretty. great. It should be fun if you pursue it. correctly. There's a lot of stuff to do. A lot of stuff to do. That's. interesting. That's why when I hear. people say, "I'm bored." Like, I don't. even understand you. I don't even get. it. How the [ __ ] are you be bored? I. wish I had 50 lives to live. simultaneously. I would do a bunch of. different things. I would have a bunch. of different jobs. I was always there. like so many different things that I'd. love to do. Aren't people sometimes.

beholden to doing things that they don't. want to do just because they have to. make bills or they have to But that's. all choices that you make too. And. unfortunately these choices sort of they. cascade, you know, you could find. yourself motivated by the wrong things. and doing things for the wrong reasons. like doing things just for money and. just for this or just for that. And I've. done that before. I I know it. But then.

you have to realize like what you're. doing and not and and stay focused on. the prize. Yeah. Take the steps to not. want to do that anymore, you know. But, you know, it's like. you people there's people listening to. this right now like, "Oh, that's easy. for you to say because I have to do this. and I have to do that." That's true. But. you can do things to better your life. with your free time. Go open your phone. right now and look at your screen.

time. Okay. Now, I understand the screen. time is 10 minutes here, 20 minutes. there, 5 minutes here, 5 minutes there. But that screen time, it's probably. about five hours, which is crazy. That's. five hours you could have been improving. your life. That's five hours you could. have been doing something different. That's five hours you could have went to. the gym. That's five hours you could. have eaten better. You could have taken. steps to have better food in your house. That you could have taken steps to. pursue a career or move in the direction.

of pursuing something that's different. than what you're doing that you would. actually find satisfying and and. fulfilling. You just have to decide what. are you doing with your time? And you. know, and this goes back to people. commenting and and bitching at people. online. Well, that's what you're doing. If if if you're distracting yourself by. doing a bunch of [ __ ] that's just. worthless and it is worthless and easy. maybe and easy and very easy. Yeah. It's. cuz you need discipline. You need to.

figure out what do what do you really. want to do with your life and what makes. you feel better. Do you feel like you. are innately disciplined? No. H no. I've learned that. Okay. I've. developed that. Yeah. That's not No. one's innately disciplined. No, I don't. think that's real. I think we look at. people that are disciplined like, "Oh, it must be easy for them. You're just. born with that gene." No, that's not. real. No, you recognize the value of. discipline and the rewards. You reap the.

rewards and then you like it and so you. keep doing it. You keep pursuing it. H. I'm just curious about like brain. chemistry because when I think about you. know you've been very complimentary uh. towards me in this conversation but a. part of me is wondering am I just lucky. that I have the kind of internal. chemistry that I have that makes me. value the things that I value and you. know I'm just doing what I feel. compelled to do and I'm curious when.

people feel compelled to do otherwise. and I don't know where to place. um responsibility for that. Do you know. what I mean? Well, you you wouldn't know. unless you are them. You could look to. your own life to times where you. haven't lived in an exemplary way or or. done things where you're helping. yourself and done things in fact that.

are actually sabotaging your life. Mhm. And you can correct them yourself, but. it's very hard. I mean, you would have. to be a [ __ ] counselor that would. have ultimate truth access to a person's. thought processes to really find out why. they're doing things differently, why. why they're not living in a way. The. only thing you could do is live by. example. You know, there's a um a term. for a taekwondo instructor. It's called. a sabom nim, and it's one who lives by. example. And that's what you have to do.

You have to you have to live by example. like live like someone's watching. Yes. Li this is what I tell people and I've. I've said this for years. You want to. have a successful life. If you want to. live your life like there's a. documentary crew around you filming your. everyday life and that you want people. to be impressed with you. Do it when no. one's watching. Do it when no one's. watching. I think about that when I work. out. I think I think about that. Yeah.

If people were judging me and they were. watching me right now and they would. what what what would you think? Yeah. I and I now I'm wondering if like. that's one of those weird silver linings. to this whole experience is that my life. became very very public very early and. so I literally do have to walk around. living my life as if there is. potentially a documentary crew following. me around. Yeah, I think that is I think.

that's real. I think that's the gift. that I have gotten by being famous. That I have to live publicly. And if I didn't, like if I was just some. [ __ ] tyrant that no one knew, you. know, and I just had all this wealth and. power and no one knew me and I could. just get away with being an [ __ ]. right? Yeah. I think the the most. wealthy and the most powerful do not. want fame because with fame comes. accountability. Yeah. But that's good.

That's good. Even the haters are good, you know. And. then the people that defend the the. defend you against the haters, that's. good, too. It's all good. So, everyone's. just working this out together publicly, you know, and they're doing it through. different vessels and sometimes they do. it through other people. They're doing. it through me and they're doing it. through you. Would you wish fame on. anyone? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You can't handle it. Yeah. No. But you. can handle it. I mean, but most people.

can't handle it. It breaks people. That's why people can't have it when. they're young. The worst thing you do to. a child is make them famous. The worst. thing. I mean, look at there's countless. examples. I've I've talked to so many of. them on the podcast. They're all broken. Yeah. Like who who have you talked to? I'm curious. Kulkin, Miley Cyrus. He's. doing much better now, isn't he? He's. great. Yeah, he's great. I mean, he's as. great as you can be to be super famous. when you're six. Oh god, I'm friends.

with Ricky Schroeder. Um, you know, uh, I've had a bunch of them on, a bunch of. people on that were famous when they're. young and they all are missing. something. It's like when you're making. cement and you don't add enough water. There's like something that happens when. you have fame and agilation during your. de developmental stages as a child when. you're supposed to be like figuring out. how do I get people to like me like what. what is it about, you know? And there is. that is that is that developmental stage. when like your your brain chemistry is.

being configured for the rest of your. life like that that is scary. You want. to you want to put that brain chemistry. uh coagulation into the in the right. configuration in the right set of. circumstances or else you're going to be. having a complex for the rest of your. life that you're going to be grappling. with because I don't know if you can. undo the stuff that you that gets. ingrained in your brain chemistry when. you're a kid. Like I don't know [ __ ] I. don't know anything I don't know [ __ ]. all about brains but like it seems to me.

that like. especially developmentally when your. brain hasn't configured yet that's when. you get hardwired to have complexes the. rest of your life that you're going to. be dealing with 100%. And if your brain. is. formulated with extreme agilation and. love for no [ __ ] reason just because. you're a cute kid, but you're a cute kid. in front of the whole world in Home. Alone. That's nuts. That's nuts. Yeah. I.

mean, he's a very thoughtful person and. he's come through it. I mean, I really. enjoyed talking to him. He's a really. nice guy. Does he regret being in the. Home Alone movies? Boy, that's a good. question. I'd have to ask him. I don't. know. I mean, I don't know, you know, cuz I mean, you know, you can look back. I don't even know how much of a choice. that was for him. How many how much can. you choose anything when you're six? How. could you choose? But like, so in a way, it was a thing that happened to him that. he didn't really have control over,

right? And does he look back on that and. go, would I would I give up that like if. I could get that life back, would I have. a different life? I'm curious what he. would say. Well, he most certainly would. have a different life. Yeah. Yeah. Um. would it be better? I don't know. You. know, but I don't know anybody that's. again gone through that. that's air quotes whole at the end of. it, you know. I just think.

that there's also this weird thing where. you become the provider for the family. which is very strange child. Yeah. And. then you have this parasitic. relationship that your parents have to. you which is I have friends that were. famous as as young people and they have. these very [ __ ] up complicated. relationships with their parents. One of. my friends where they found out their. parents stole from them millions of. dollars. Yeah. And then you have to grapple with. that as you're an. adult. These monsters, you know, they.

they used you as an ATM machine and they. stopped working and they became your. quote unquote manager. Really just. pushing you out there to try to siphon. money off of you. [ __ ] a. [ __ ] a. Yeah. Yeah. But I got fame in a a slow. drip. I got slow doses like like snake. venom. You get a little bit of snake. venom. If you get one big bite from a. cobra, you're [ __ ] You know, that's.

what I got. Yeah. So, well, you're strong. So, here I am. But. you're strong. You came through it on. the other side. A very durable person, you know, and I think there's, you know, it's a trial by fire and you went. through it. I mean, you know, that's. what, you know, that's what they do in. boot camp. you know, you you go through something. very difficult to be strong at the end. And you don't become strong, just wake. up one day, I'm strong. No, you have to. go through some [ __ ] you know, and that.

going through some [ __ ] when you're a. kid as becoming famous is different than. going through like hardship as a child. I know a lot of children that went. through hardship. Like all my friends. that are interesting all had horrible. childhoods. All of them. All my most. fascinating friends. I'm so grateful. that I did not have a [ __ ] up. childhood. Well, that's probably what. prepared you or helped you. Indeed. I. feel like if I had gone through this. experience after having a [ __ ] up.

childhood, I would be a psychopath. today, right? So, thank God I had a good. childhood. Yes. Yeah. I didn't have a bad childhood. I. had a complex childhood, but it wasn't. bad. You know, my mother and my. stepfather are very nice people. there. It wasn't bad, but it was [ __ ] up. It. was moved around a lot. Didn't have a. lot of friends, got bullied, a lot of. different things. Okay. But wasn't the. worst, you know? Nothing horrible.

happened to me, you know. So, it's. like the the. trials can't be too hard. They can't. break you. They have to be just enough. so that you gain some strength and you. rebuild. And if they do break you, then. it's a very difficult task of. rebuilding. And people that have gone. through horrible childhood trauma, particularly abuse and sexual abuse, that they have the most. difficult hurdles to overcome. I agree.

I think in in large part because how do. you trust like I think rebuilding your. life relies upon like upon rebuilding. yourself in the context of other human. beings and how do you do that when you. can't trust anyone? It's true. But I do. know some people that have gone through. childhood sexual trauma that are also. incredibly fascinating people because. they they they've figured out a way to. acquire strength through it all. But. what about trust? And that's the other. thing I was going to say. And then.

they've also figured out a way to well. they're also very skeptical of people. and rightly so. But that's a good thing. because a lot of people don't have your. intentions in mind. Especially if you're. a woman, right? If you're a woman, everybody's bullshitting you to try to. get in your pants. Like, it's like it's. constant bullshitting, you know? So, you. have to figure out, well, who's actually. bullshitting me and who's just being. nice? And who's being nice, but kind of. bullshitting just slowly playing this. game. You ever heard of the the. definition of a gentleman? No. It's a. patient wolf.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And then. ultimately, the prey sort of. acknowledges, yeah, here you are. You're. getting into my pants in the end, but. because you've been the most patient, the most impressively patient of all. Yeah. You've done the dance correctly. You put your feathers out like a good. peacock. Yeah. I like that. I like that dance. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is like. women are designed to like that dance,

right? Because this person has shown you. the respect of not just trying to use. their physical force and take take it. from you and not care about you as a. person. They've chosen to acknowledge. you as a person like this is what this. person wants. They want to feel. comfortable with me. But then you can't. be a sociopath too. It has to be. genuine. You have to genuinely like this. person. So, you know, for a woman to. feel safe, right? Like how do you you. and then that's you got to go through a. lot of trial and error with that too. You have to figure out like why' that. relationship fall apart? Oh, that was a.

piece of [ __ ] Like why' that one fall. apart? Oh, she was a psycho. like. recognize like what what do you actually. like? Is it just that they're hot? This. is the thing. Like I've had a bunch of. friends that just married hot people and. then you know you going through divorce. and it's all chaos. You can't just. [ __ ] marry hot people. Like just cuz. they're hot and they're sexy and they. turn you on. Like that's just genes. Like you got to you got to understand. like there's a personality involved. And. then there's also like when you're hot. you have ultimate power. You have the.

Willy Wonka golden ticket. Like. everybody's stumbling at their feet to. try to like open doors for you and be. nice to you, put you in prison. Yeah. Open a certain kind of door. I. mean, we all forever. Yeah. It's um It's [ __ ] It's. flirting. It was flirting in the end. That's all it was. Yeah. Being a. person's [ __ ] weird, you know? It's. really weird. It's really weird and it's. temporary. It's like you're always.

looking at that [ __ ] hourglass just. sands running out, you know, and like. what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What's this about? What do I like? What. do what don't? And then you can get. overwhelmed with the like existential. angst. Just what's the point of it all? Yeah. Well, you have to find a point. You have to like what is man's search. for meaning? Like what is it? What are. we doing? I don't know. Well, that's a. subtitle of my book, My Search. My. Search for Meaning. Oh my god. It is. right there in cursive. If you can still.

read cursive, some people can't anymore. Is that your actual handwriting? No, I. wanted it to be my actual handwriting, but is it [ __ ]. They were like, "This looks so much more. pretty." I You could have made it that. pretty. I do have great handwriting, man. What the [ __ ] It's close. Might as well. It is odd. Yeah, the the. search for meaning. Search for meaning. is very odd. And you know, and you could. especially when there's no inherent.

meaning. You just have to make it up. I. think I mean it means something to you. If it means something to you, it's. inherent. It's real. If it means. something to you, if you actually care, it means something. Like, what's the. point of it all? If you're going to die. someday and who knows what happens when. you die. And then then there's the the. real fatalistic thing. When you die, it's over. It's just black and. emptiness. and then just shut off like, "Okay, so you're still alive, bitch.". Okay, you got to figure out what you're. doing with your day-to-day. Do you enjoy. your dayto-day? If not, why do some.

people How come some people enjoy their. life? Why don't you like what is man's. search for meaning? Enjoy your [ __ ]. life. Enjoy this life. You can, it's. possible. Can be done. And I think. living by example shows other people. that it can be done. And then being like. really honest about it like what is what. are what are the steps? What's the. struggles? like how do you do it? Yeah, that's actually been a really sort of. fun takeaway that I've had from having. just an Instagram is like I'll post a. silly video of me dancing for my kids.

and a lot of the comments are just. people being like I'm so glad that. someone like you can be happy. Yeah. You. know, it's like thank God someone like. you can be happy. And I'm like, yeah, someone like me can be happy. That means. you can be happy, too. It's possible to. be happy. Yeah. But you know, when. you're a 500B person and you want to be. thin, that's a long road. It's not going.

to come quickly. And if you're a. severely depressed, very unhappy person. with a disaster of a life. It's not. going to turn around overnight. That's a. battleship. It takes a long time to turn. that [ __ ] around and get it facing the. other direction. And and the motivation. has to be that you have to see some. kernel of opportunity embedded within. that darkness because otherwise like. where what how do you even know what. direction to go towards and you have to. be enjoying the process. You have to.

figure out a way to enjoy the process of. improvement and and to even though it's. hard. Yes. And because it's hard hard. can be fun. Yeah. Yeah. You have to. enjoy the hard and that's why voluntary. adversity is so important. You have to. force yourself to do hard things so that. you can do hard things no matter what. If I do what's pump up remixes. someone you got to get motivated. somehow. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Although David Gogggins doesn't listen.

to music because he thinks it's. cheating. Really? Yeah. He gets all his. motivation internal. He's like external. motivation is cheating. He's a [ __ ]. complete psycho, you know. But he's like. I need a good soundtrack when I'm. running. But that's the spectrum, you. know, the spectrum of discipline, you. know. Yeah. That's what he's doing. That's. what he's doing. That's what he's doing. all day long for no goal other than like. I talked to him about it. He's like, I'm. in the lab every day downloaded.

information. Like, whoa, cool, dude. You're in the matrix. There's a there's. a crazy video of him um working out with. my friend Israel Adosana. Israel Assagna. is the former UFC middleweight champion. of the world, one of the greatest. fighters that ever lived. And he is. working out with David Gogggins and he. can't keep up with him. And David Gog is. just breaking him and he's throwing up. in garbage cans and David is putting him. through his workout and it's one of. three workouts that David does in a day. and he's like this incredibly fit world.

champion fighter. Is he distracting. himself? I don't know. You have to talk to him. You have to dig into that brain. You. have to dig into that. That's a very. unusual brain. But he was 300 lb and fat. at one point in his time. And in and. become his purpose. That's his meaning, right? That makes sense. That's his. meaning. That's why he says he's like, I'm he goes, I'm downloading knowledge. Like every time he's like pushing. himself past the limits that he thinks. he's capable of further and further,

he's downloading more understanding of. himself. That's We should work out some. time, by the way. I think that would be. fun. I I only studied I only studied. fighting when I first got back out of. prison because I was getting a bunch of. death threats. So I did Krav Magaw. and it was a lot a lot of it was just. learning how to scream. Um yeah well the. first like my Krav Maga instructors. because they were instructing me on a. specific for a specific reason. It. wasn't just to work out. Their first.

thing that they taught me was how to. scream. Just to like without without. holding back the the the amount like I. was surprised and and they were telling. me people don't want to take up space. and take and make noise. Like we're. we're taught from a very young age, especially women, to not do that. And so. you have to in the first the first. lesson was make noise, take up space. M. And and so we just practiced like.

screaming as loud and as hard and as. long as we could. And then once we got. through that, then we started doing the. fighting moves. And the first thing I. had to do before I did anything was. scream first then move. Scream, move. And so that the screaming became part of. the uh the movement. So it would it. would trigger so I wouldn't have to. think about it. If it ever came down to. it and someone actually attacked me, I. wouldn't have to think scream. I would. just scream. Croft McGaw is legit. It. gets uh criticized a lot. Does it?

Whatever. Yeah. By martial artists. Why? Well, because it's a combinatory martial. art. So, it combines a bunch of. different things together. So, it's. essentially like a jack of all trades. What's wrong with that? There's nothing. wrong with that. Oh, okay. No, no, there's nothing wrong with that. It's. like only being into purebred dogs. Like, what what's up with that? Well, no. It's like is it effective, right? Like there's no Krav Magaw artists that. have gone on to dominate in the UFC. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that.

But it kind of you could kind of say. that mixed martial arts in a sense is. essentially the roots of Krab magga. because it's taking the best aspects of. various martial arts and training them. Yeah. How is it different? Well, the. thing is is that if you are training for. self-defense, okay, you're training to. defend yourself in against an attacker, the the true in my personal. opinion, the true best way to learn how.

to fight is to learn how to prepare. yourself for trained. killers. Not the average person. Really? Yes. Like, how often are you going to. encounter trained killers? It doesn't. matter. You should be prepared for train. killers because you could run into a. trained killer and if you try to do some. crab mag nonsense on me, I'm going to. [ __ ] strangle you. You can't defend. yourself against someone who actually. knows how to fight. Okay, here's a. question. Can I ever actually defend. myself against someone like you? No. Not. against someone like me. What's the.

[ __ ] point? Because you could defend. yourself against someone who doesn't. know how to fight as good as me. But the. odds of someone like me attacking you. are very very very very small. I should. train to be able to, you know, to fight. against trained killers. But yes, defend. yourself. But jiu-jitsu you can. jiu-jitsu you could defend yourself. You're you're not going. to the way you would be able to beat me. as if I was untrained. The I have too. many advantages. But also, I don't have. advantages if someone's bigger than me.

and just as well trained as me, right? Or more well trained than I am, better. than me. That I don't I'm I'm not going. to beat, you know, the UFC heavyweight. champion. Like, I'm I'm not going to. win. It's not not possible. I don't care. how long I do martial art. You can avoid. dying by them. No. No. Okay. They'll. just murder you. No, I can't. No. No. I'm I'm completely vulnerable. Okay, great. As an expert martial artist with. three black belts, I'm completely. vulnerable. Yeah. That's reality. That's.

physics. That's I mean, it's like you. against an elephant. Who's going to win? Exactly. Exactly. That's the 100 men. versus a gorilla. Yeah. Obviously, the. gorilla would win. Who ever thought the. gorilla would lose? Retards. Men who. have never seen a gorilla. Men who think. they could fight better than they can, which is most men. Why? Who who ever. brought up that as even a thought. experiment? I don't know. But it's funny. that it's like viral in 2025. I thought. we would have worked that out in the. 50s.

The fact that I feel like people just. don't remember what animals are like. We're so out of touch with animals. They. don't even know what an animal is. They. have no idea. People know what their dog. is. They have no idea what an animal is. An actual real animal. And also, your. own dog could [ __ ] you up if you want if. it wanted to. It just doesn't want to. Exactly. Yeah. Well, unless you have a. little dog. I'll [ __ ] up a Chihuahua. Yeah, but my dog Marshall, he's a golden. retriever. He's the sweetest dog on the. planet. But if he he could probably kill. me if he want. He just doesn't know, you.

know, right? And he would never think. to. But like, but if like a rat was. trying to attack you, he'd be [ __ ]. terrified. Or if he got infected by. rabies, right? You know, like, and lost. his mind, like, right, ciao. It'd be a. real problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's there's the reality. But if. you're training to defeat a trained. killer, you're going to be way better. off than if you're training to defeat. someone who's going to lunge at you this. way and you're going to block that and. hit him here and hit him there and like,

but don't you fight differently against. a trained killer versus like some dude. who's like drunk? The right way to fight. is the right way to fight. Period. Whether it's some drunk dude, if if some. drunk dude tries to take a swing at me, I'm not going to think, "Oh, he's a. drunk dude. I shouldn't avoid this. punch. I should do something different.". No, it's like it's it's all the. language. So, martial arts is. essentially like a language. And some. people only know a couple of words and. some people can eloquently recite.

Shakespeare at the drop of a hat. Sure. And that's the difference between an. expert and someone who doesn't really. know what they're doing. and most people. don't know what they're doing when it. comes to martial arts. If you're. preparing for someone who doesn't know. what they're doing, that's not the right. way to do it. The right way to do it is. to prepare for someone who knows what. they're doing. Now, this is very. different when we're talking about like. women's self-defense versus just, you. know, uh like a a a grown man who is of.

normal size defending himself against. another grown man of normal size. A fair. fight. Yeah, a fair fight. But in a fair. fight, you should be preparing to fight. against a trained killer. If you are a. person who just only trains in. self-defense tactics, like someone comes. at me, I'm going to do this and I'm. going to do that. Good luck doing that. to someone who knows how to fight. Good. luck. Cuz they're going to recognize all. of your movements in advance. You're. going to go like this and they're going. to go, "Oh, well, his right arm is. coming this way, so I'm just going to.

step this way and I'm going to avoid. that." And I see his left foot step. backwards. Well, now his right leg is. vulnerable, so I'm going to kick it. Like, it's it's like it's language. It's. understanding the flow of body dynamics. and movement. And it's happening so. quickly that the only way that you can. actually be effective is if you're. fluent and you don't have to think about. it. You don't think about it. It's when. you're training, it's like you very. rarely think, "Oh, now I'm going to do. this." It's like opportunities open. themselves up, especially in striking.

striking is something that you you do. where you're you're doing these. techniques so often that as things. happen, you're just responding in a. trained way. Your mind and your. neurosystem is is like completely. trained for these actions and these. movements. Do you think that. fighting and you know fighting your. friends like not like actual like. fighting for your life but fighting for. your friends is a crucial part of brain. development? because I know that I've.

heard or at least I've read that. roughousing with small kids is a really. important part of their brain. development and and the the people who. become more um well adapted, well. adjusted emotionally, just they seem to. be more fit emotionally were kids who. had some roughousing when they were when. they were young, especially with their. parents. Is that is that like an. elevated form of roughousing part of a. human being's cognitive development?

Well, I think physical altercations are. a normal part of human existence that. have exist. It's been going on since the. beginning of time and to no. understanding or no knowledge of it and. no experience with it at all cuz I'm not. like I'm not a fighter. I don't like. I've never got into a physical fight. with anyone. Good. Is that good? Is that. good? I haven't either other than ones. on purpose. Right. Okay. Like I'm not I.

don't get in street fights. I don't I've. never got I haven't been in a fist fight. since I was a kid. I just They were all. martial arts fights. Okay. I I you know, and I just think for for men being. vulnerable is not good. It's just not. good to not know how to defend yourself. It just it leaves you with this deep. insecurity. And that's why you see men. that don't know how to fight, they use. bravado and they puff their chest out. and they yell. They try to intimidate.

people and scare people. It's just. posturing. It's just like maybe this is. why I feel bad for men because I don't. feel any sort of impulse to to do that. to to puff up my chest and and like I. don't know. Maybe is it Well, you. shouldn't. Men shouldn't either. And the. men that do it are generally vulnerable. They're it's bullies, right? Why Why are. bullies bullies? They're bullies because. they're [ __ ] That's really what it. is. It's why they're trying to. intimidate people and hurt people. It's. because they're they're weak. It's like.

you like trained fighters are some of. the nicest people. Like people that. fight in the UFC, they're some of the. nicest people you'll ever meet. It. sounds crazy. Like my my friends that. are all jiu-jitsu people, they're nicest. people. They're so friendly. They're so. because they're not scared. They're not. they're not insecure. They're not. vulnerable all the time. Most men who. don't know how to defend themselves, who. like are really mouthy and get get loud, like they're just vulnerable and that,

you know, I have a friend and uh he has. real rage problems and he doesn't know. how to fight at all. And he was yelling. at someone in the parking lot of the. comedy store once and I and I pulled him. aside. I go, "What are you doing, man?". He goes, "I don't want to [ __ ] see. red." And I get I go, "You don't know. how to defend yourself." I go, "One of. one of these days you're going to do. that to someone who's like me, but. they're mean and they're going to just. say, "Oh, here's a nice opportunity to. just [ __ ] this guy up and you're going. to wind up in the hospital or worse.". Like, don't do this. Like, you can't do.

that. But like, some men grow up puffing. their chest out and they get away with. it and they get away with it if they're. loud enough or they're mean enough or. they yell enough and they they, you. know, that becomes their defense. mechanism. They're they get shitty with. people all the time, but it's that's all. it is. And if they don't get shitty with. people publicly, they get shitty with. people online. They get shitty they do. get out there. They get it out that way. But it's all just weakness. That's all. it is. It's just like you're vulnerable.

and just don't be vulnerable. Figure out. figure out a way to not be vulnerable. I. got into martial arts because I was. getting bullied and I didn't I just. didn't I was always scared of. altercations. Like I hate this feeling. So, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to. become what I'm terrified of.". Okay. I guess my one sort of poke back. at that though is I find it interesting. that you you you frame vulnerability in. in such a negative way. Physical.

vulnerability is negative. Yeah. But I I. think the thing that I'm sort of. thinking about is how it doesn't matter. really how strong you are or capable you. are. We all are still utterly vulnerable. and well sure. And so I guess like but. what can you control? Fair. You can. control some aspect of that. Like you. can't control guns, right? If you if. someone has a gun, you're vulnerable. I. don't care who you are. You could be. Superman. Well, not Superman. He's.

bulletproof. But you could be, you know, UFC heavyweight champion. You're still. vulnerable to a gun. One little kid can. kill you. Bang. You're dead. Yeah. But. how much can you control? you can. control some of it. So, is the idea. like, oh, you can't control any of it, so why control at all? Why do anything? Why why be strong? Well, I guess no. I. guess my my thing is um for me it's it's. less about. like prepare like positioning myself to. not get hurt. And it's more for me my.

big sort of like training that I attempt. to do is how do I how do I get up when I. am inevitably hurt. So I I I understand. that life is going to hurt me and I. don't know how life is going to hurt me. So there's like a million different ways. that I can be hurt. It might be that I'm. physically assaulted. It might be some. other thing. and knowing that I can't. prepare for all of the ways that I am. vulnerable to existence. Instead, I try.

to think, okay, I am vulnerable to. existence and I am going to get hurt. How do I not be broken by the hurt? And. how do. I I don't know, maybe I'm I'm I'm. treating the inevitable pain of life as. that as that training to get strong. It's just kind of like I I almost don't. seek out pain because I've had enough. pain come at me. Is that does that make.

sense? I don't know. What What do you. mean by seek out pain, though? Well, you. you were talking about like uh voluntary. adversity. Yes. Right. And like to an. extent I agree with you because that's a. very stoic thing to do to seek out. challenges so that you can you can test. yourself and test your metal and push. yourself to become better for the. inevitable things that might happen. Your but not even just for the. inevitable things that happen just for. your own for the sake just for you as a.

human to achieve balance. You're we're all vulnerable. There's no. invulnerable people. We're all going to. die. We all are made of flesh and bone. and we're all weak, right? There's no. invulnerable humans, but you can be less. vulnerable and you should probably. optimize that, especially as a man, I. think, cuz it with without it comes a. lot of weird insecurities that are not.

comfortable and they can trip you up in. all sorts of aspects of your life. I. think maybe this is another like woman. man thing maybe where like women have. to accept vulnerability as like an. inescapable aspect of our lives even. just in our interpersonal relationships. Like I know that when I walk into the. room I'm not the one who's going to win. a fight. That's for sure. Right. Um, and.

so knowing that I I feel like I sure I I. I prepare myself in the ways that I can, right? and I and I'm strong in the ways. that I can, but like I don't think about. vulnerability. in negative terms cuz I've also found. that once you've been once you've been. once you've been forced to reckon with. your own vulnerability, that is when you.

find your strength. So, I don't know. I. I see them as talking about different. things. Yeah. Yeah. I think physical. vulner look I think there's. certain there's certain roles that males. and females ultimately play that are. unavoidable and one of them is when your. husband went downstairs to protect you. right there's a reason why I wasn't the. one who did that yeah ultimately right. in that.

situation if you are less vulnerable as. a man it's a good thing. If someone. breaks into my house and they're a. normalsized person without a. weapon, I'm not scared of them. You. know, I'm I'm scared this crazy person. is in my house. I'm scared that they. might have a weapon. But if I realize. that they don't have a weapon and they. they're physically threatening, I have a.

massive advantage. It's up to me whether or not they die. It's my choice. And that's better. That is better. That's better than you getting beat to. death by some schizophrenic who breaks. into your house because you don't know. how to defend yourself. Fair. And you. panic and you start flailing and you. hyperventilate. You don't know what to. do. Yeah. That's not good. No, it's not. That's all I'm saying. I mean, we're all. vulnerable. It's it's part of what. you're doing when you're working out. really hard is to try to increase the.

strength and decrease the vulnerability. You're trying to increase your resolve. to push through difficult things, increase your your your character and. your will. You're trying to fortify. yourself. And they're also trying and. that's not bad to fortify. It's all. positive. It's all positive, you know, but it gets labeled as negative because. there's a lot of things that get. attached to it like jocks and bullies. and [ __ ] and and aggressive men and.

shitty men who then who think themselves. superior to people who are more. vulnerable. Exactly. Instead of just. being nice because you know you can kill. everybody in the room. Just be nice. Like that's the real nice person is the. person who can kill everybody and he. doesn't want to. you know, the the. really shitty people are the ones that. would act on that. And sometimes you'll. run into those. And it's better to be. prepared. That's that's all it is with.

like physical vulnerability. But what. you're talking about like psychic. vulnerability and not wanting to go. through pain because you've been through. so much. Of course. Yeah. Look, ideally. we should go through zero pain. Ideally, we should go through zero aggression, zero shitty, deceptive, conniving, psycho people that are trying to ruin. everything in your life. Ideally, yeah, ideally, you shouldn't have to prepare. for that. You shouldn't interact with. those people. Ideally, and again, I'm. also like speaking at counterpurposes.

with myself because I did the exact. opposite thing with my prosecutor. I. didn't have to talk to him. I didn't. have to have an a conversation with him. that was difficult and awkward and and. hard and forced me to confront all of. this pain. And I did because I knew that. there was value in that. Like so. yeah, we we seek comfort always and we. avoid pain. Yeah. But I don't know, maybe I'm a masochist because I always.

feel like there's something to gain from. pain because you've gained so much from. your pain and you kind of must know that. you are who you are. You know, you're. kind of an extraordinary person and. you've gone through a lot to become that. person. You don't just wake up and have. this perspective that you have. You have. to go through a lot of [ __ ] You know. what's [ __ ] up though? What? I trust. pain more than I trust. joy. Because when I'm going through. something painful, I know what that is.

and I know how to confront it. When I'm. going through joy, I'm afraid that. something bad is going to happen to me. That happens to people where they self-. sabotage, you know? I mean, I don't know. I was. having a great time in Peruia and then. everything just went really bad out of. nowhere. And so, like, I don't know. Like a part of me is like always is. trying to see like the the yin-yang of. it all. Like the the the good that's. embedded in the bad, but then afraid of.

the bad that's embedded in the good. Like that's I'm that's what and you know. and that's a reality like you know the. more that you now that I have the. privilege of being a mom I know that one. day you know like if something were to. happen my to my kids I would be all the. more [ __ ] de like all the more pain. in my life. Like if I never had kids, I. wouldn't have I wouldn't have the. opportunity to experience a potential. pain that would be utterly devastating. And so like that's that's where that.

play goes in my head. And I just wonder. if it's a trauma response where like I'm. afraid of good things happening. I'm. sure part of it has got to be a trauma. response. I mean, I think a lot of. people that self-sabotage when things. start going well in their life, it's. because they're used to things going. badly. And this idea of things going. well, this it just scares the [ __ ] out. of them. It's the unknown. And it's the. pain that might come with it falling. apart. The pain that might come with you. hang all your hopes and dreams on, wow, things really actually are better and.

then they're not. Like, [ __ ] So, you. want it to fall apart so that you could. achieve some level of comfort in the. understanding of this state that you've. been in many times before, the state of. failure. I need to get rid of that. I. need to I need to lose this. Yeah. But. you're aware of it, which is the first. step, you know? I don't think you're. embracing it. You know, clearly you're. not. You're writing books. You're here. You got the Hulu series. You got a lot. going on. It's like it's not going Yeah. It's not like.

you still just a little bit like looking. over my shoulder like coming at me. Imagine if you didn't. That would be. crazy after all that you've been. through. Imagine if you didn't think. like that, you know? It's understandable. More than. understandable, you know. Yeah. That whole like lightning doesn't. strike the same place twice and it's. like. it can. It can. It can tell that to. someone who's been struck by [ __ ].

lightning. Yeah. I. Yeah. You know, it's possible. You can't. think. It's the fear of the unknown and the. fear of the possibilities can really. [ __ ] you. It really can. I'm trying. not to let it do that to me. You're. doing a great job. Thanks. You really. are. Yeah. Working on it. But again, it's it's a struggle. And this is. important for people to hear. It's not. like it's just like every day like it's.

it's hard. Life is hard. Even a guy like. Gogggins, you know, he told me and he. goes, "Sometimes I stare at my [ __ ]. shoes for like 30 minutes before I put. those [ __ ] on." He goes, because he's like, "I don't want to do. this. I don't want to do this." But he. knows he's going to do this. He goes, "But I put them on." Well, good on him. It's not easy. Life is not easy, but. it's worth living. It's worth doing. It. really is. Does he put those shoes on. because he knows that ultimately he's.

going to be glad that he did it? If you. ask him, he's like, "Because I'm not a. bitch." Okay. Well, because but that is what it is. Yeah. He's ultimately going to be glad that. he's he's still got the strength and. that strength needs to be watered every. day like a garden. It's not like you. just have it now. You have it for life. No, you have to you have to keep at it. You can Everybody could. slide Everybody could slide back. It's. true. Yeah. As much as we can improve.

ourselves, we can Yeah. Not It's not. easy. It's not easy being a person, but. it's worth doing. Yeah. Yeah. And you. could do it. And everybody could do it. You could do it better than you're doing. it. I could do it better than I'm doing. it. I'm trying. And you could do it. better than all of us. I'm so grumpy. sometimes. It's like so unnecessary. Unnecessary. Avoidable. But it's good. It's good to, you know, struggle's good. It's good. All of it's good. It's all.

We're on the path, you know. But this is. like this all this this all this this. idea that you should know better by now. That's also silly cuz I know 80-year-old. fools. No, everyone. If there's anything. I've learned from being a mom, it's that. everyone, every human being is a. toddler. Every single person is a. toddler who either hasn't gotten enough. attention or hasn't had their nap, whatever the [ __ ] and they're just. having a tantrum. Like that is and if. you treat everyone like a toddler, it is.

actually a very successful way of. interacting with people. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's true. That is the lesson of. parenthood, right? Yeah. I I I talk. about that all the time that uh I. started looking at people as like babies. that grew up instead of looking at them. like, "Oh, this is Mike. He's 35." Like, no, Mike was a baby. Like, how'd Mike. become so [ __ ] up? Well, Mike got a. lot of bad information, a lot of bad. experiences, and he still is a baby. He.

still has the same needs that he did as. a kid. They're just more sophisticated. now. But ultimately, they all derive. down to these same things. Do you need a. change of situation? Do you need some. attention? Do you need to sleep on it? Like what, you know, whatever's going. on. Like just if you can identify those. like basic human needs and address and. just tweak their circumstances, you can. change a person's life. And also. recognize that if you ignore those basic. human needs over and over, they're going.

to compound and you're going to have. more problems. And they're going to lose their [ __ ] in. the middle of the grocery store. Amanda, I really enjoy talking to you. again. Thank you very much. Really. appreciate you. And your book is out. now. Amanda Knox free, my search for. meaning. Yeah. If anyone wants to reach. out, I'm at amandox.com. It's pretty. easy. Okay. Thank you for being here.

Appreciate you. Thank you. It's a lot of. fun. Bye, everybody. Bye. [Music].