Joe Rogan Experience #2322 - Rebecca Lemov

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. All right. Hello, Rebecca. Very nice to. meet you. Hi, Joe. Very nice to meet. you, too. So, um, first of all, what got. you interested in mind control? Well, so this is a question I've been. asking myself just because I find myself.

after two and a half decades of having. this topic that initially seemed pretty. niche and unusual and not many people. were interested or many people were. skeptical about it, but I thought it. seemed like it embodied some of the more. extreme. If you could look at the way. people are shaped by their environments. and by their, you know, what parts of. your life are determined by you and what. parts are determined by outside forces. that mind control would be a perfect.

area to investigate that because it's so. extreme, especially if you looked at. particular cases. So I because I had. done my dissertation uh at UC Berkeley. on the history of behavioral engineering. and how you know these kind of models. for creating a society of control and uh. encouragement in various ways like a. behaviorist kind of dream and it seemed. like the next step was to it to look at. something like brainwashing or mind. control. When you first started studying.

it, was it a less um public sort of. curiosity? Because now a lot of people. are very much interested. I blame the. internet mostly. I probably had a lot to. do with it too, but it's just you and. the internet, a lot of people on the. internet are, you know, because over. time, you know, people have gotten to. know about MK Ultra and a bunch of. different different programs that the. that our own United States government.

was involved in where they were working. on mind control. But what like initially. what drew you to it? Well, I guess I always have been drawn. to topics that seemed uh unusual maybe. for professor to be looking into and. people I mean at the time if you look at. a Google engram for the word mind. control or brainwashing they were very. low you know around the turn of the. century or the. 1990s after their kind of there was a.

peak of interest in the 70s and it just. really fallen off but I guess I was. interested because it just seems so. unusual. and like maybe there was something there. that people hadn't really thought about. and at the time these documents weren't. readily available and like you say. people weren't really looking into it. So I just thought it seemed like a rich. area for research and I'm also. interested in connecting my person I've. always been interested in connecting my. personal uh I guess my goals for life.

with what I research. So I thought it's. almost like a philosophical and. existential question of how much we're. controlled or how much we might be. controlled and it seemed important to. look at some of the more extreme cases. if you could. Yeah, I think that that's. an interesting aspect of it like how. much are we controlled and how arrogant. are we to think that we're not. controlled or how arrogant are we to. think that that wouldn't work on me? Yeah, I think that that's embedded in.

our, you know, in our in the messages we. receive all the time that freedom is. something kind of effortless, that we're. just granted and that autonomy is just. uh the natural state, but actually we're. so much more malleable than we think. And these things, if you look around. yourself or if you observe yourself, you'll often see this to be true. That's. what also drew me to anthropology is. just the idea like if I was born in. another place at another time, I would.

be another person or how much of me. would be transferable was what that. interested me and I that's why I went to. first started studying anthropology like. how much are we shaped by things that we. don't necessarily choose or are maybe. accidental or genetic or various. factors. But um yeah, but I think we're. told that. um that freedom of freedom of choice or. our autonomy is fairly straightforward.

and all you have to do is exert your. will. Yeah. But clearly we're influenced heavily by. our environment culturally. I mean. accents uh just cultural traditions, behavior patterns. It begs the questions. like what what are you and what is the. what is the the the shell that you wear. on the outside you know like a hermit. crab like what what do you carry around.

with you and what at the core of it what. are you yeah that was I mean that is the. oldest question of Socrates who am I or. yeah just the question it's the it's a. deep question and it's also kind of like. a practical question. So I thought if you could look at it. more in in actual examples that would be. interesting and I also I guess I was. drawn to the. topic maybe yeah maybe because other.

people weren't studying it or also. because of experiences in my life just. seemingly small things like one day I. remember when I was in graduate school I. was walking down the street and I said. we passed a small dog and I said I. really I really hate small dogs like and. I I realized as I said it that it wasn't. true, but I had just like I love I. actually really like them. What's wrong. with small dogs? But I had absorbed this. opinion some from somewhere that like a. person that such as I was aspiring to. be, you know, only like, you know, big.

dogs or something like that. But just. noticing in yourself the way you soak up. opinions and you're shaped by, you know, even, you know, even seemingly trivial. things. And then also on a more profound. level, you can see that happening. um. made me wonder like what could you learn. from looking at these uh cases where. people really seem to have been. brainwashed you know in history or. radically reshaped perhaps and then. there's brainwashing yourself cuz if you. say I hate small dogs now you have to.

kind of defend it and now now and even. if you say god it's not even true but. there's got to be reasons to hate small. dogs I don't want to come off as a [ __ ]. who just says things there are other. people who feel the same. It turns out. it Yeah, maybe e either you end up. doubling down on that opinion because. you don't want to feel silly to. yourself. I mean, I think sometimes. we're just a series of uh adopted. opinions that we then uh adhere to. And.

I guess being in graduate school also. made me feel that way because you're rap. you're rapidly learning and absorbing a. new vocabulary, learning things you. should say, learning things you. shouldn't say, ways you should express. yourself and ways you shouldn't. that. seemed very like a deeply shaping. process. And I was interested in how did. social sciences like was there a science. of this process of shaping or some they. sometimes called it canalyzing or making. you know a canal of behavior so that. people would end up wanting to do what.

it was that socially necessary for them. to do. Well, universities are a great. place for that, right? Because you get. away from your parents for the first. time who have indoctrinated you into. their cult. Like you're born into the. cult of your parents and then you leave. and you're like, "Let me get away from. these crazy people and now I'm going to. become a whatever." You know, now I'm. going to figure out which group most. aligns with my ideas and join them and. rebel and fight against the machine and.

become a part of a new cult. Exactly. Wear something different or adopt. I. suddenly I don't like certain kinds of. dogs or I wear a certain thing or you. know you have an interruption in the. fabric of your extensive conditioning. and that is an it's it's also an. opportunity you know it's it's not a. nefarious thing no necessarily but it. can take that just that truth about. people I think it can be nefarious for. some people unfortunately but I think.

for a lot of people just considering new. ways to think about things is probably. valuable. It's probably a good thing to. have the opportunity to reconsider the. way that you've sort of like canaled. Yeah. the the grooves that have been. deeply carved into your personality. where you automatically go towards. certain things or think about certain. things. I always think just an. interruption is often good. Oh yeah. That in your in your patterning. Yeah.

That's why I think moving is really good. or traveling or Yeah. bunch of resets. I've read that you have had a steady. meditation practice. I read it was like. two hours a day for 25 years. Yeah. That's a lot of time to be meditating. Yeah. It really helped me so much when I. learned to meditate that I never wanted. to miss an hour. So I never missed an. hour except when I was giving birth to. my daughter. Uh which was its own thing. But.

you get a break for the meditation for. that. you get a hall pass. Yeah. I just. And it's not like anyone made me or I. necessarily thought I would do that. It's just that it something that uh gave. me a lot of perspective and peace and I. guess I just didn't want to go back. So. it in I do think it informs how. I do research or I try to bring what I. learn in meditation into into my into. what I do. Do you do an hour in the. morning and an hour at night? Yeah. Wow.

Wow. And for a year, I think a a couple. times I've tried adding more in the. morning. So, two hours or so in the. morning and an hour in the evening or. something, which has an effect, but it's. hard to it's hard to make room in your. life sometimes. Oh, for sure. But it. does. You can sleep a little bit less. Yeah. Well, you don't want to make. yourself sleep less, but sometimes it. just does reduce the amount you need. just by meditating. That's what I found. Interesting. How much sleep do you need?

I used to sleep like eight and a half. hours and then now I sleep about seven. or six and a half or if I'm really tired. I might sleep a little extra. But I. ended up just Yeah. So it's so much. changed my life that I just um I move. things around so I could always do it. So and try to be adaptable. So I could I. just mostly get up at at a regular. meditation time which is like 4:30. What. kind of meditation? I do vaposa which is.

a form of Buddhist meditation. Pretty. it's just a form of observation or. someone once described it. as practice in seeing things as they. are. So you try to just it's not trying. to you know apply a lens over something. or chanting. It's just a very it's a way. of it's cultivating observation of the. subtle body ultimately or just what is. in front of you. And so you just sit in. peace and think. Well, it's not always.

peaceful. There is sometimes. Yeah. But. I mean peace as far as like you're not. bouncing around. You're Yeah. Sometimes. I'm sitting. Sometimes I'm I've also. had, you know, I've adapted. So when my. daughter was little, sometimes I'd hold. her be putting her to sleep or. something. But mostly I'm just sitting. there and uh with eyes closed and then. you you kind of move you observe just. how you're how you are and uh the more. you practice it the more you can kind of.

go into it more deeply quickly. I I. would think that that would be a good. protection from uh unwanted mind. control, too. At least you could kind of. have an assessment, do an audit of your. thoughts. and sit back and go, how much of the. [ __ ] I believe is because of X or. because of Y. Yeah. It's like a built-in. reflection. So, the end of the day, I have to say.

I'm often less still or peaceful. my. mind's jumping around and I'm like. processing maybe it's even what I. watched or was exposed to and it's go. it's sort of a processing. uh experience and sometimes you're super. distracted but you can also notice that. fact. So it just builds in yeah an. opportunity for some distance which then. you can also try to bring into your life. too. Were you when you were young um had. you ever been exposed to any cults or.

anything like that? H, that's a good question. Uh, not when. I was really young. Like, how old were. you when you were first exposed to. cults? In fact, I. think, so that's a good question. I. mean, my family is not is sort of cult. averse. I would say my father, I think. they had friends once, uh, you know, in. later life. My my parents had these. friends who got involved in a large. group awareness training which is a. somewhat culty and they take you in and.

you're not allowed to use the bathroom. and they lock you kind of like keep you. in a room. until but until you're really. uncomfortable and start start to have. revelations about how you could change. your life and these are you know it's. stuff like um how long did they make you. not go to the bathroom asked it's to the. point where it's uncomfortable I can't. remember it's a long afternoon going. into the evening And often people come. out kind of converted. And my parents'. friends actually did and they did change. their lives in various ways. So they.

said, "You have to come." And my dad in. the middle of it, he he said, "I have to. go. I have to go to the bathroom and I'm. not he's like, "I'm out of here." He. just left. So I figured he had a kind of. he was not uh programmable in that way. Well, I feel like any group that doesn't. want you to go to the bathroom is. stupid. It's probably a sign that Yeah, there's no reason to not go to the. bathroom. if you have to go to the. bathroom. That's ridiculous. I mean, it's a kind of it's a it it is typical. of certain groups where they start to. constrain your um and if and people who.

might be willing to remain in that. uncomfortable state and be constrained. will end up staying longer and it's sort. of a self- selecting process. Maybe that. makes sense, right? The people that are. more willing to comply. Yeah. And I. guess with me maybe the closest the. first brush with a cult would be. something like the various yoga teachers. I've worked with. Oh, so many of them. were so culty. Yeah. There's one kind of. funny story is I got very into yoga when.

I was living in Oakland uh also in. graduate school and I I would go it was. it it was really helpful with school. just to have very physical demanding. practice and but uh there was a whole. community around it and it turned out. that the teacher was sleeping with many. of the students but I just didn't know. it. I thought he was he was I don't know. I just thought he was. uh I admired him. I brought my boyfriend. at the time to pick he came to pick me.

up after class and he said something. like and he's now my husband. He said uh. oh it just I just got the vibe that. everyone there is sleeping with. everybody else and I was shocked. I was. like no that's not happening but it it. actually was you could say it's a bit I. don't think it was a cult but it. certainly was a scandal and yeah I had. the exact same experience. The first. time I started taking yoga, there was a. guy who was a yoga teacher who um I have. always been very wary of control and.

controlling people and those kind of. environments and that this guy was. like there there was something. inauthentic about his spirituality. that greased me the wrong way. I was. like yuck like just the way he would. chant and the things he would say. There. was just too much ego involved. And then. I found he was banging all the students. and I was like, "Of course he is. I knew. it." Cuz my wife roped me into going to. the class. That was the first time I.

went. I was like, I really like the. stretching. It's like really great. I. really like yoga itself as a practice. But I mean, the problem is these people. that are and it's kind of the problem. with everything like when one person is. in control and one person is the person. who gets to lead the class and then they. get praise. heaped upon them by the. students and then they start to think. that they deserve it and then they don't. have a lot of self-reflection and. they're not very objective and then they. sort of revel in it and enjoy it and the.

next thing you know they're taking. advantage of it and it's like yeah it's. yeah it's very helpful to have that. defense uh radar of a certain kind also. sometimes I think these uh prominent. teachers they have had some sort of I. don't want to say enlightenment. experience but some sort of breakthrough. something that that felt profound to. them because many people do we now know. that these experiences are incredibly. common and yet so they take that as a. kind of license well now I must be.

enlightened or what I'm you know I have. to take the mantle my people are. awaiting this or they sort of then. justify things they wouldn't otherwise. spiritual narcissism yeah it can. actually engender that because of or. yeah and I think there's some this has. been described too. Spiritual narcissism. is a good phrase, though. It's legit. Yeah. Yeah. You see a lot of it. There's. a lot of it in the psychedelic. community, a lot of it in the meditation. community, a lot of it in the yoga.

community. They just start thinking that. they're better than people that don't do. it. Yeah. It feels very special. If you. have a special experience, it it's. really danger it becomes very dangerous. Yeah. Afterwards to um not have it feed. your ego. And even if you had a profound. breakdown of the ego when you were in a. psychedelic state, it is fascinating to. me though that you can tell the. difference for the most part if you're. really paying attention between someone. who's authentically expressing their.

real thoughts versus someone who's. saying things that they think if they. say these things they will get praise or. they will get attention or you will. think that they're profound. We know [ __ ] Humans know. There's. like a smell to it, a feel to it if. you're paying attention. Yeah. But for. whatever reason, it's just like some. people have big ears, some people have. small ears. Some people just are not. that good at picking up on that stuff. for whatever reason. Life experience,

they haven't been burned enough times. Like whatever it is. And you know, that's where cults get started. And I'm. fascinated by cults. always been. fascinated by them because I've watched. I don't know how many documentaries on. cults and in the beginning it looks so. fun. That's the problem. Do you ever see. the documentary Wild Wild Country, the. Netflix series? Yes. It's amazing, right? In the beginning, you're like, they look like they're having a great. time. Yeah. They're all dancing together. and playing drums and having a party and.

eating together and it's like a sense of. community and this episode is brought to. you by Uber Eats. Summer is almost here. and you can now get almost anything you. need for your sunny days delivered with. Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn. delivered, but you can get chicken. parmesan delivered. Catamaran, that's a. no. Lemon mering, that's a yes. A day in. the sun, no. A bottle of rum, yes. Uber. Eats can definitely help you out with. that. Get almost anything delivered with.

Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you. must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy. responsibly. Product availability varies. by region. See app for details. That. that documentary is was so successful. I. think for that very reason. It actually. perpetuates the allure of that of Osho. and that cult because their outfits look. kind of cool and the colors are. beautiful. Yeah. And the swirling. cavorting dances. My husband grew up in. the Bay Area and he was saying he, you.

know, as a kid he would run into members. of that cult. He said what you don't see. in the documentary and he blames the. documentary for not showing this. sufficiently is they were frequently. armed. So on the side where you're not. seeing it they're holding you know. automatic weapons and things like they. really in a way they fell into the spell. of the cult in the documentary a bit. Really interesting. That's interesting. Wow. I did not know that. And you have. to have a guy like Osho because like the. way he would talk about things and you.

know his slow way of talking the people. Yeah. You know, his his beard and the. Rolls-Royces and everything. It's like, good lord. Argue. Yeah. And he was. really much more of a cocaine uh adept. or enthusiast than people also. recognize. I think he gets off a little. easy in that documentary as well. Partly. because they're interviewing people who. are still to some extent devoted or they. want to maintain that ocean, you know.

Well, also the was her name Stella. was. there. Yeah, she was so crazy. Like she. was poisoning people and she was such a. great villain that it made him like. because if she wasn't in the. documentary, he would be the villain. Exactly. Yeah. She pulls the focus. Yes. Yeah. Most certainly. And the fact that. she's still alive, too, that that sort. of helps as well. Yeah. Um, but there I. I feel like it's a default thing in the. human psyche because of our ancient.

history of living in tribes. that human beings have been very tribal. And I think being a part of a tribe, one. of the things that happens is you sort. of have to go along with the way. everybody else is doing things. If you. want to fit in, you want to adapt and. especially if you're growing up in the. tribe, you don't know any different. This is the only group. And being. ostracized from the tribe and kicked out. is like, oh my goodness, that's the. worst thing in the world. Now you're. alone. You have to fend for yourself.

There's no way you can. You have to. protect yourself from the wilderness and. the animals and the elements and. predators and other humans and oh, so. you have to it's very dangerous to be. alone. So you have to adapt to the to. the tribe itself. I think that's true. Yeah. Smallcale societies have to I mean. even the word cult in its technical or. dictionary definition doesn't. necessarily mean abusive right. organization. And it just means. smallcale religious group that maybe you.

know I think people deeply yearn for. that sense of belonging and that's why. it does look so fun and in and by all. reports is very fun to get inducted into. a cult. People get these exhilarated. states. They often have altered you know. experiences of altered consciousness and. exil, you know, they're empowered by it. too. Well, um, fun fact, before I, um, bought the place that I put my comedy.

club on, Sixth Street, I was under. contract for a theater called the One. World Theater that was run by this cult. And uh, I kind of vaguely heard about it. and um, my friend Ron told me that the. theater's amazing. You should buy. because we were talking about buying a. comedy club. You should buy that place. And so I got under content. Then my. friend Adam called me up. He goes, "Have. you seen the documentary on that cult?". I'm like, "Oh no, there's a documentary. that's never good. That's never good.

And it's really bad." The documentary is. called Holy Hell. And it's about this. guy who's a hypnotist, uh, a yoga. teacher, and a gay porn star. And that's. a that's a one, two, three combination. And, uh, he started out as cult in West. Hollywood. And then after Waco, after. that went down, the cult awareness. network started really cracking down and. they were investigating him. So he. changed his name and moved to Austin. Wow. And had his followers build him.

this theater. Fortunately, I got out of. the deal. But I guess he was selling it. Well, he was gone. Uh, it had already. fallen apart. The cult had completely. fallen apart. But what's fascinating is. in the documentary in the beginning. again, it looks amazing. They're all. cooking together and eating together and. doing yoga and they look so happy. And. let's just be honest, modern society, the day-to-day grind, the, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, the stuck.

in traffic and doing things you hate. under fluorescent lights in a cubicle. all day long is not attractive. Not only. is it not attractive, it makes cults. attractive. And these people were. longing for something that was that that. showed them that no, you're right. This. is stupid. The way your parents lived is. stupid. The way all these people live in. society, you know, the way Thorough. described men living lives of quiet.

desperation. Like, yeah, that sucks. You. don't have to live like that, man. Come. live with us, man. And this guy was able. to do this thing called the knowing. And. the knowing was it was very difficult to. get and people wanted it and he wouldn't. give it to them and like you had to but. when he would give it to you, you would. you would sit there and he would put his. hands like his thumbs on your head and. touch you and these people would go into. this intense state of bliss that even.

after they did this documentary, even. after they realized he was a charlatan. and they left the cult and they said. that that moment was the greatest moment. of their life when. because of the power of suggestion, the. way the human mind anticipated this. event and then built up to it and then. when it finally happened, this. indogenous burst of psych of whatever it. is in the mind. I I don't know which. chemicals were being released, but these. people claim that they contacted God for.

this brief moment where this man touched. them. They they kind of understood. everything. Yeah. Briefly. So, it kind. of worked even though he was having sex. with everybody. not only having sex with. these people, he was charging them. He. would charge these guys for therapy and. they'd have sex with them and you know. and they would talk about it afterwards. like thanks a lot like it was so. horrible cuz like at the end the. documentary is so bad at the end of the. documentary it's like I got to get out. of this deal like there's not enough. sage in the world to burn off the bad.

juju that happened in this joint. That's. true. Yeah. So it just felt like oh. horrible. Yeah. The life cycle of a cult. has that what you just described and. sometimes and it accelerated but. sometimes it plays out slower over time. But a lot of times people are very. confused on leaving if say if they're. taken out as maybe ch even children uh. rescued by FBI from abusive groups or. people who managed to escape abusive.

cults. they still have trouble. evaluating their positive experiences. because the positive was so good, right? And disentangling it and de, you know, you feel that you need to delegitimize. that too. But I think so that's why I. think therapy can be helpful someone. who's experienced with cult uh ex. members. I think the problem also is. that it's their only community. And if. you have to leave your only community. and then just strike it out in the world.

and you've been with this community for. 20 years or whatever it is, right? What. do you do? How do you do it? How how do. you find peace? How do you find. companionship? How do you find like that. sense of camaraderie that's so deeply. embedded in a tight-knit small. community? And a lot of times when you. when you come out if it's say it was 18. or 20 years or a large portion of your. middle life maybe went in as a young. person you come out and you don't know. you're you know don't know how to.

operate things you don't have the right. you don't you're not comfortable with. new technologies you feel I think that. it's really a terrible experience for a. lot of people and they still grapple. with it many years later readjusting to. societ society because the critique they. had originally which was profound as. you're saying you know not wanting to. live a life of quiet desperation that's. still there critique but it just wasn't. answered. I always say like someone come. up with a really good cult I'll.

join come up with one that like you. answer all the questions but you don't. try to control me and you're just nice. Isn't there a cult where someone's not. trying to have sex with everybody and. not trying to steal all your money? Isn't it possible to do that? Just to. like get together a group of like-minded. individuals and I guess that would be. more of a commune. But even that there's. always some male generally male leader. who ruins everything. It does seem to be.

I think some of the so there seem to be. in the 70s so many cults and back to the. land groups and some of the back to the. back to land stories also you know have. many cautionary sides to them and many. of the aspects of culture. What is the. back to the land? So just people leaving. the city, heading off to the country and. starting an like an intentional. community I guess would be what you're. what you're describing with the idea. that we're going to collectively raise. even collectively raise our children uh. sell hammocks or you know make our own. jam or or you could say even monasteries.

maybe aspire to this some kind of. religious organizations also have that. intentional. quality and some so I've done some. research into some of these because you. wouldn't consider them cults necessarily. neessarily, but they can end up having. some of those qualities such as sexual. um just the demand that people uh have. sex with each other, which tends to just. create a lot of chaotic circumstances. Why do you think it always involves. that? Why does it always go that way? I.

don't know. I mean it's very interesting. because I even read uh Norman Khan's. classic uh history of. millennialism which are a lot of groups. from the middle ages and um afterwards. that like Christian sex where they would. break off and including things like the. children's crusade and others and they. often would end up with a kind of free. love uh even though they're very devout. and uh extreme and sort of devoted to. giving up their worldly possessions.

there was sometimes this component of uh. this kind of sexual uh freedom that. would end up destructively having. destructive outcomes. Do you think that. is just because of just genetics? Just. the the encoded desire to spread your. seed because life is very fragile and. especially in tribal life when you're. going back to the hunter gatherer days,

people didn't live very long and it was. very difficult to like have you ever met. read uh John Marco Allegro's any of his. work? No. He wrote uh the sacred. mushroom and the cross which is a. fascinating book about the dead sea. scrolls and he's got a very. controversial perspective on. Christianity and his perspective was and. this guy was an ordained minister who. was agnostic because he he was an. ordained minister but then we started. studying theology he started seeing all. these parallels to all these various.

religions and he was like well you know. clearly like it's not one religion has. it right? There's something in all these. things, but it's not like I have to I'm. a Catholic and that's it or I'm a Muslim. and that's it. He was like there's. something here that's that exists. throughout all them this constant. threat. So he gets hired to be one of. the people that deciphers the Dead Sea. Scrolls. So the Dead Sea Scrolls, which.

is, you know, on parchment, which is, you know, like animal skins and they. have to do, do you know the whole story. behind it? They they found them in these. clay tab these clay pots in Kuman and. these caves and it turns out to be like. some of the oldest works of the Bible. Yeah. Well, he deciphers it for 14. years. And after 14 years, his. conclusion is that the entire religion. was based on fertility rituals and the. consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and.

that all of this had been sort of hidden. in parables and stories. But he. maintains that the root of it all was. all about these people and the these. cults of fertility rituals and consuming. psychedelic mushrooms. And he even. brought the he he traced the word Christ. back to and this is very controversial. for Christians with your hackles up. I'm. not saying I agree with this, but he. traced the word Christ back to an.

ancient Sumerian word which meant a. mushroom covered in God's semen. M the. idea was that when it rained it was God. fertilizing the earth and that these. mushrooms would like instantaneously. rise like they would go to bed and in. the morning the mushrooms would be there. where they weren't there before. They. would consume these mushrooms and have. these intense psychedelic experiences. and then they tried to hide this stuff. from the Romans. And so they hid it in. parables and they hid it in stories. This is what his belief was. Well, it.

kind of reminds me what you're. describing, which I don't haven't uh. read or but I think it reminds me a. little of Aldis Huxley's idea of the. perennial philosophy, which is that. there's uh if you study across. religions, you can find certain traits. and uh properties that all share. And he. wrote a whole book describing what that. was. Then his last book that he wrote. before he died was uh was called the. island. than it was sketching out what.

he believed would be just what you. describe, a a non-abusive uh a place. where a small scale community where. humans could flourish and it wouldn't. involve including it would avoid sexual. abuse. And one of the features I always. remember from this which maybe relates. to what you're what you're saying is uh. is that he he said there would be. trained parrots on all the trees and. every 15 minutes or so they would say. attention which would remind people to.

pay attention. M in other words to break. that tendency we all have to succumb to. you know loops of conditioning and. things like that because I think yeah as. you're saying fertility is a natural. part of human life and often woripped uh. with how much your privacy is being. invaded online VPNs are no longer just a. nice thing to have a necessity some. people think I don't need a VPN because. I have nothing to hide but that's. exactly what data brokers want you to. think because their profits depend on.

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scanning the QR code on screen or. clicking the link in the description. It. worshiped and and also it's it's so. deeply ingrained because it was so it. was so important in the beginning. because you literally could go extinct. It was very difficult to survive. We're. so much weaker than everything else. around us. We're so fragile. Life is and. infant mortality was so high. It was so. difficult to raise a child to adulthood. that you had to have as many of them as. possible just to ensure that the.

survival of your. tribe. And I think unfortunately this is. what gets distorted in all of these. groups. And this is where things go. sideways because then you evolve involve. emotions and you involve ego and. dominance hierarchies. And it seems like. even if Aldis Huckley's idea, if. Huxley's idea was great and you had an. island and everything was going well, you it'd be good for like one generation.

and then the kids of the next generation. would grow up and one would decide, you. know what, I got a [ __ ] better idea. than this and then someone would go. straight Jim Jones. Yeah. You know, they. would they would start growing some. plant that was an infetamine and they'd. start getting wacky. Human beings being. human beings. Yes. would I mean also. there's an interesting uh paradox or. tension in ecstasy itself. I mean. there's religious ecstasy and there's. sexual ecstasy and I think sometimes. they get mixed up like the wires can get.

crossed so that can lead to someone. maybe initially I don't know these. groups just the tendency they can have. to go towards sexual abuse. Why do you. think that during the 1970s there's this. big upswing in these cults? Well, there it started in the 60s from. my understanding, although they were um. they did they did exist before then. But. yeah, there's a lot more interest in. them, I suppose, because there's a.

there's a more widespread questioning in. US society and also world, you know, around the world. So, cults flourished. also in Japan and Europe. and Latin America and also India. So. certain do they have parallels? Yeah, there are parallel. Sometimes they would. have branch organizations in different. countries. So some people say in the. group the children of god sometimes. they'd be the kids would be sort of. moved from group to group because they. had outposts in Thailand and they would.

grow up in London. And who was the. leader of the children of God? Which one. was that? This was a guy named David. Berg. This is the cult in which the. river Phoenix and his family were. briefly right. They were in it, but not. I think the parents ultimately took them. out. But it it's a really messed up a. very disturbing uh cult. I actually. write about and have met um a member. who's just sort of an average member. named Ry Connelly. I met him at a.

meeting of the international cultic. studies association and he left after 30. years but he just describes in a. riveting way how he how he joined and I. think that's kind of representative of. why cults started to flourish in the. 70s. So he was a a young man in college. and he was just feeling he said he just. felt that you know the the old the. traditions that his parents had brought. him up in and Catholicism that he had. been raised in was he just felt that he. lacked meaning in his life. He didn't he. felt like reality was over there and he. was separated from it by you know there.

was like a saran wrap over everything. So he felt somewhat alienated but he. didn't know what the answer would be. He. kind of yearned for a religious. experience and he moved he went out to. California and he I think at a con he. was at a concert at university at the in. Santa Barbara and he saw this group. walking through during intermission and. they were wearing these robes and. chanting and it was right after the. Manson trial and murders. So he in his. mind was this you know he was uh scared.

of them. He thought that looks like a. cult. But later, you know, even though. he had that thought, he would end up. joining them for 30 years because he he. saw them during later after the event. and he went back to talk to them because. something drew him to them. He's about I. think he had dropped out of college by. this time and he said that they were. eating sandwiches and they looked a lot. more casual and approachable than they. had earlier. And they he just said uh he.

was asking them questions and they said. would you like to recite the sinner's. prayer right now and drop to your knees. and you know and he said yeah for some. reason he said yes because what is the. sinner's prayer it's it's just a it's a. it's a verse that actually is not from. the Bible but often would be used as a. recruiting tool and it did result in. this sort of out-of- body experience. He. recited it and then he said he stood up. and he felt changed by this but it. turned out that David Berg he didn't.

know the name of the group and they said. why don't you join us and he took he in. other words he kept taking small steps. towards it and pretty soon he found. himself on the bus with this group he. still didn't know the name of it and. they were all testifying about how they. had you know been converted and he uh he. was asked to you know add to the. testimony and he started talking about. JD Salinger because he was just an. alienated youth basically and nobody. understood what he was talking about. They all just started singing and. covering up his words. But and he and he.

thought several times of leaving and. getting off the bus going to see his. ex-girlfriend. He had just broken up. with his girlfriend. But he ended up. staying and he ended up marrying three. women and just three. Well, at first it. was one. They had an arranged marriage. and then it turned out the this guy who. ran the group, David Berg, he was a. former furniture salesman. He then had. some, you. know, he he believed that he got these. messages direct from the Almighty. The.

messages told him that he needed to ramp. up his recruiting by having women do. this practice called flirty fishing. where they would go out and basically. seduce men into the cult. M and then he. started introducing these practices. where they were supposed to have sex. with children cuz his idea was that um. this was natural and so many gener you. know generations of kids were raised in. this cult with this were either.

trafficked or abused. I mean it's really. horrific and Ray Connelly is interesting. because he didn't engage in those. things. He did end up having 17 children. in the. cult and but he 17 kids. I think he did. have 17. Uh he's a fascinating person. because he left and he's spent his time. supporting survivors and which is very. unusual. What about his 17 kids and they. came out too. How do they how does he.

have time for anything else? No, they're. not mostly grown because he's quite he's. quite elderly. I guess just the it's. interesting to hear him talk about how. he saw the group changing and how what. started out to be this profound. experience soon he called it a dark. hamster wheel of the soul like he was. caught and it became. this basically they were exploiting him. in his middleage years he rose in sort. of mid-level bureaucracy within the cult. but anyway this cult children of God has.

and today still exists uh it has a. different name they had still the same. practices. Uh no, they they say they. reformed, but many people are still. pursuing lawsuits against them, things. like that who are adults today. Um they. had, you know, groups throughout the. world and they would move kids around. and things like that. Um the Manson family is a fascinating. one, right? because um I know that you.

have uh studied Jolly West and the the. whole MK. Ultra program and what what they were. experimenting with with psychedelic. drugs and and and cults and mind. control. Um do you what is what is your. perspective on why they were doing that? Why uh why Jolly West was involved? Why. why were they involved? What do you. think was the initial motivation to sort. of pursue mind control studies the.

federal government? I think the initial. motivation was a kind of national. internal uh emergency, national security. emergency that emerged right after World. War II actually at the beginning of the. Korean War. uh when US uh pilots were coming back or. were shown confessing to having shown. flown germ warfare missions over China. and then many PS were coming back and um.

seemed to have been converted to. communism or have been concerningly. affected by something that was seen as. brainwashing by that. So many of the the. soldiers coming back seem to have been. brainwashed or have been have. collaborated to some degree when they. were held as prisoners. And then there. were 21 uh US uh PS who elected to stay. in China. And this really was a. disturbing um you know they all had a.

chance to choose when they were in the. UN camps after they'd been held prisoner. for for four years or so. and 21 of them. decided that they'd like to try their. lot in China. And so this caused this. kind of collective this this uh caused a. crisis of you know did the communists. possess a super weapon of some some kind. that no other war. There was even a. famous article in the New Yorker that. said something new in history that there. was something that some capacity that. this ideological system had the.

communists had that would that was. somehow rendering uh Americans uh. powerless against it. So this this was. kind of the crisis of mind control and. MK Ultra was an attempt to de to. basically uh reverse engineer what this. was. So Jolly West was one of the first. people he was he was in charge of. studying the brainwash. pilots initially and that's how he and. what year was this? That was in.

52. But he also pre before that he was. involved I mean his he had been trained. to some degree with um he was trained by. uh Harold Wolf who was at Cornell. He. had done his residency at Cornell with. Dr. Harold Wolf who is a a world ex. neurologist world expert in migraine and. and basically the type of pain that. comes from migraine. So you could say he. was an expert in the pain, fear, pain. cycle. And he had CIA connections from.

even before MK Ultra was started. So. what did they determine the Chinese were. doing? So they determined West uh wrote. a paper in 1957 and the part that was. publicly that was published in a journal. called sociometry described uh he he. described it as DDD or dability uh. dependency and dread. And he said. basically these camps uh were. systematically inducing a state of. dabbility which was which was that uh.

soldiers were starved and basically worn. down. They were uh deprived of medical. care. They were I mean this is also in. the historical record. Something I. studied extensively is that you know. they had men were marched in for example. the Tiger Death March north of the Yaloo. River from uh you know from the war. where they'd been captured and by the. time they got there they had often lost. half their body weight. They had been uh. bombed by their own forces. At night.

they sometimes, you know, were they had. to pour the blood out of their boots. every morning just to keep going and not. be anyone who stopped would be shot. So. by the time they got to the camps they. were really worn down and a missionary. who saw who passed them in a train at. that time wrote were described in an. oral history that he he didn't recognize. them as Americans that they were they. were the most. berraggled you know that it was just a. very uh they were in a terrible state.

and so so uh dability was the first. thing west described when he was. extracting what had happened dependency. was uh you know later there was a layer. added in which the soldiers were the PS. were dependent for all their if they. were going to survive they required um. you know the camp the camp uh leaders. would provide it so it made them very. dependent and there they also engaged in. um very formal malice thought reform.

with the men as a kind of. experiment and the third part was dread. which was just the idea that you could. be killed at any time or perhaps your. family could be because they threatened. malice thought reform. Yeah. The in the. camp in the P camps um the Chinese once. the Chinese took over from the Koreans. running the camps they because they they. decided I think it was almost a formal. experiment at least that's how it looks. to me. I don't think West wrote about. this, but um in my own uh research on.

the camps, it it transpires that they. they wanted to see because Mao believed. that thought reform would work on. anybody, not just on Chinese people, not. just on Chinese peasants. He felt that. only something like seven or to 8% of. the human population was unreformable. and those people would be disposed of. But he wanted to check if these American. uh soldiers would also be uh susceptible. to re-education. So they really did a.

formal, you know, three-part. re-education program on them. And men. had many different responses to it. But. when West met them, he he studied uh. some of many of the returning men when. they came back to Lackland Air Force. Base. and he extracted those three those. three components of what had happened to. them DDD and then and that's the way he. became an expert. on what he called brainwashing or. coercive persuasion. So how do they go.

from that to like sponsoring the Manson. family and you know Operation Midnight. Climax and all the crazy stuff that they. were doing. Yeah, it may seem like a. leap, but I think it I mean sort of it's. sort of a leap. It's sort of not. I. think that MK Ultra was funded um. around in direct response to this crisis. of the of the. PS. And in addition to reverse engineering.

what had happened to them, they also. wanted to turn it into a weapon and. continue certain programs in in uh. interrogation procedures in making them. more effective. So MK Ultra just had a. wide reach and it was pretty free reign. Uh it was a free reign program and. um you know the historian Alfred Alfred. McCoy says it was modeled on the uh Los. Alamos in a way a kind of Manhattan. project for the mind. So just as the. atom had been disassembled and you know.

transformed into this new uh this new. world had emerged from that program that. intensive uh exertion of scientific. acumen. The same thing could be done. with the mind. the mind could be sort of. pulled apart and human consciousness and. functioning could be understand. You. know, people could be broken down and. rebuilt. Were they trying to optimize. the use of the mind to their advantage? Like what was the end goal that they.

were trying to do with this? One thing, a couple things I think one idea was. that potentially could be a. weapon. One goal. Another so it could be. used on on an enemy perhaps even a city. So that's one reason they were. researching LSD. It had certain. properties that made it easily it could. be easily dispensed to an entire. population through the water supply. So. they wanted to know what exactly are the. properties of LSD. People didn't really. know at the time. So there was an. offensive part of it. There's also a.

defensive part. So US military needed to. be trained to resist whatever this was. Once they understood it, they developed. the sear training and that was west was. involved in that as well. And then a. third thing was a more maybe a broader. curiosity. about you know which would lead you to. be able to interrogate people better and. perhaps also to. um you know just really understand. I.

think there was also kind of a a. curiosity about what would happen. I. think because this is because they had. so much power to uh experiment in a way. without any oversight and it wasn't. until 1963 that the inspector general of. the CIA himself said this is this is um. unethical and you know we've done it. basically put us put a stop to it but it. it really 63. but it went on I mean the Harvard LSD.

studies when were those um I actually I. don't know Which ones exactly? There are. some that were earlier. What did What. are the ones that made Ted Kazinski? Okay. That Yeah, that's earlier. Was. that earlier than 63? Yeah. Yeah. And uh. that's Henry Murray. Yeah. But so I. don't I don't actually know the answer. to that question of exactly how it. continued, but they officially. discontinued and destroyed all the. records. So they may have continued. under other forms, but Manson was 69.

Yeah. So Manson is after that. So they. didn't discontinue it. They kept doing. things. Well, West kept working. Yeah. It's ironic because it seems like they. were kind of a cult because the the. amount of power, the amount of unchecked. power and influence that Jolly West had. and MK Ultra in general had and all the. people that were working on this, you. have this power, the fact that you are. working in complete secrecy. You uh are.

the puppeteer. you're you're controlling. all these people and then this idea that. Have you read Chaos, the Tom O'Neal. book? Yeah. What did you think about. that? I thought it was great research. Amazing. Yeah, it's a really it's a. really good book and just so stunning. I. had never considered that before. I. thought Manson was a crazy guy and he. got together with a bunch of crazy. people and he ran a call. I have no. no suspicion that the government was.

involved in orchestrating the entire. thing. They may they may not have been. I don't think O'Neal Tom O'Neal thinks. that he made an absolute link. He just. brought he You do get West in the same. room potentially the West visiting. Manson in jail. I don't I don't remember. that. Yeah, West visited Manson in jail. Uh West, he believes, at least Tom. O'Neal does, supplied him with LSD and. then every time Manson would get. arrested, he would get released. This is.

true, but this wasn't Wes necessarily. This was uh Roger Smith who was Wes. He. was an associate of Wes and Wes was head. of the me uh methamphetamine research. project or things like boy which was so. you know Wes did so he got Wes got. funding to do his hippie labor you know. his psych psycho lab or psyche lab in '. 68 67 and ' 68 during his sbatical in. the Bay Area and it wasn't you know it. wasn't obviously funded by this this if.

it was funded by the CIA it was. clandestine but there are many notes. that Tom O'Neal also writes about so. both of us have gone to the West Papers. over many many years and um and I think. uh you can put West at the Hate Ashbury. Free Medical Clinic where he had an. office and where Manson would go for. medical treatment and his girls he would. take his girls in to be treated his. women his his cult and this was they. were at the time as I understand it seen. as a kind of a model cult and many of.

the researchers under West I mean we can. prove that link that people like Alan. Rose who was a sociologist. They were. trying to do an ethnographic study of. cults and you know what is the natural. environment? How do they how do they. create bonds and what is their. relationship to American society and to. drug use and things like that. So West. would apparently hang out on the couch. getting high and wearing, you know, kind. of dressed up in hippie garb with his. middle-aged friends. And these graduate. students and an undergraduate who he.

hired would be writing in their journals. about how irritating he was. But, you. know, some sometimes it seems like it. wasn't very targeted and it wasn't very. efficient and it wasn't. really ne there didn't appear to be a a. plan, which isn't to say. So, to me, it's not entirely clear uh what the. relationship was with Manson. It is very. uh evident. He was bailed out several. times by Roger Smith, who was also a. psychologist as well as a parole.

officer. So, that's highly suspicious. and Roger Smith did know West and Dave. Smith who was the head of the medical. clinic also knew West. But these things. are it's hard to tell exactly how I. appreciate you're being cautious about. it. Yeah, that's good for you. Um I'm. less cautious. I I but I think it's also. that is how the government functions in. general. The idea that they would be. so inefficient at everything except cult.

is kind of silly. I mean, it's Yeah, it's a it's a really it's a deep. question. Yeah. You know, who is it. clownish or because if you look at some. of the other MK Ultra operations, they. look highly inefficient and you know, they're dosing each other at the holiday. party with the punch and you know, uh. just many lives ruined while Yeah. uh at. the operation midnight climax. It just. looks like a free-for-all and out of. control. But I there there are really.

concerning aspects of the paid ashberry. operation, I would definitely say. And. Manson was uh I mean, he could have been. an also an informant. Well, he certainly. was. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm cert. I'm I'm certain he was connect. There's. no way he just kept getting out of jail. the way he got out. and the sheriffs who. arrested and were told that it's above. their pay grade. Exactly. Yeah. Um it. just it's kind of how the government. does everything though. Like it's not.

like they would have it be this like. very disciplined, rigorous, scientifically controlled study that you. know, you know what I'm saying? That. made sense especially because they have. so much impunity. They have so much. power. They have so much no one's. observing them. They're working. completely in secrecy. they kind of get. away with doing and they're also. embibing, right? They're also that's a. that's a factor. I mean, Sydney got the. head of MK Ultra was or the TSS uh was.

was regularly taking acid which can kind. of shape your consciousness. Yeah, that's a little problematic. But, you. know, interestingly, since you mentioned. that, there was a peer-reviewed side of. it and they actually through the I got. really interested in the cutouts from MK. Ultra. So they had a. legitimating legitimate side and many. scientists who work for them, they were. almost subcontracting to them and some. of them knew it was CIA money and some. of them didn't know. So even someone. like BF Skinner received money from the.

M from MK Ultra, but it was conduited. It was I want to say conduited through. the Human Ecology Society, which was a. part of it, but it was just a a front. organization. and they were really into. these fronts. So some scientists there. was the group that later people would. call the unwitting scientists who would. just be they were doing the research. they wanted to do. It just happened to. be of interest right to the CIA and then. others others would publish in.

legitimate journals but then they'd have. an a classified version of their. research that went more into detail in. the aspects that MK Ultra was interested. in. Well, that's also one of the more. interesting aspects of MK Ultra is that. it's very difficult to find out what was. really going on and unless they there. was a a bunch of files that were. discovered, right, that sort of unveiled. what what was going and if had not been. if those files had not been discovered, who knows what we would actually know. about all this stuff? Yeah, we wouldn't.

we wouldn't know. And there act. amazingly. So this was the result of a. foyer request by John Marx who was a. journalist at the time and he made the. request and um everything had been. destroyed except for the financial. records and that just but one thing I. also want to mention the CIA kept very. good records of a lot of things and even. in the financial records they still had. copies of some of the commissioned uh. projects. So that's how we know about. them. That's that's and it really is. accidental that they didn't think to.

purge their financial files. but was. probably so secretive that the people. that were in charge currently when the. FOYA requests were filed probably. weren't really aware of it all. in Yeah, it was in the 70s in 77 or so, I think. Yeah. So, you're dealing with, you know, a decade passed. Who knows if. the people currently in charge were even. aware because I would imagine a lot of. this stuff is very compartmentalized. I. think the destruction of the records had.

happened earlier but that that. destruction had been as you said they. they made them I mean from their point. of view they neglected this batch of. documents. Whoops. And then then the. church committee came out in 75 and many. revelations were made although it was. still partial and then John Marx made. his voyer request sometime around then. It it brings me back to yoga teachers, cult. leaders, and then clandiststein. government operations. Like whenever.

people have power, unchecked power and. insane influence, particularly influence. to manipulate people and influence over. people's minds. And if your entire if. your established goal is to try to find. out how you can manipulate people and. what what can be done and you're you're. doing this complete in complete secrecy. with basically unlimited funding that's. all just all under the table stuff like.

you could get away with so much. You. also I think one component you also that. helps this develop is to have a high. ideal at the same time something like a. kind of a almost messianic purpose. We're doing it to save America. We're. saving the world. Not just America with. the world. Oh yeah. And that's one thing. I one of the inspirations for my. research was finding a book on the. street many years ago when I was living. in California. And I love to find a good.

uh just a accidental. uh inspiration which was this book. called the captive mind that somebody. had left out uh by Chesaf Milos a po who. was a Polish poet and he had grown up in. Warsaw or come of age in Warsaw and seen. his city the city that he lived in just. deteriorate into sheer. He said it was. an experience no human being would ever. want to live through if you were lucky. enough to live through just watching the. city destroyed and people shipped off to.

Awitz and all these things. But he said. that um and like social life completely. deteriorating before him. And then. afterwards the Soviet troops came in and. even though he watched as his friends. kind of had to remake themselves in. order to survive, in order to be artists. in order and so if you're a poet, you. don't just go along. You have to. actually start to think differently. And. at first they would sort of pay lip. service to it or make it, you know, on. the surface they would pretend to agree.

and then secretly have their own, you. know, writing, but after a while they. would start to internalize the and he. called it the new faith. He, you know, the kind of uh this this doctrinary. ideology and that's what he he ended up. defecting because he couldn't do that. He said it's an operation you perform on. yourself. So I just think one important. factor is this true true belief this. sense and and out of that can come the. justification.

for a number of violations I think. Well. I think that's a through line through. the entire CIA itself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's I that could justify. so many different secret operations all. over the world. like you're you're there. to protect American interests and. America is essentially the guiding light. of the world and we need to save the. world. So you want to make an omelette, you got to crack some eggs. Yeah, that's.

a kind of logic and that's a very. typical logic of a the means the uh. means are justified by the ends. I was. fascinated also in Chaos Jolly West's. connection to Jack Ruby, right? that he. visited Jack Ruby after Jack Ruby had. shot Lee Harvey Oswald and all a sudden. Jack Ruby goes crazy. Yeah, he was never. coherent again after. meeting. This happened to several. shocking number of people. And in West.

Papers, you can actually find the. unredacted documents where he talks. about some of the things he's been able. to do with combinations of sodium, amatl, LSD, and various other what did. he say? Psychoactive drugs. Well, he I. mean among other things he says he he. started to s say or suggest that he. could create memories. He could I mean. he knew that um he could destroy a. person's orientation to self and time. and uh so basically disassemble a. person. Uh but he also he also said he.

could use hypnosis to not as anesthesia. which is a known possibility with. hypnosis but to create extra pain so. hyperthesia. And he kind of said that he could. actually make someone develop blisters. or asthma or an ulcer. Wow. Just by. hypnotizing them. I don't think he did. that to Jack Ruby. Obviously, he had a. very he had a a morning with him or. something. What? He had just had a short. amount of time with him, but that's. enough to dose him. Ruby emerged.

apparently in I don't know that much. about the Ruby episode, but I do know. that West intended to write a book. He. he intended to write about eight books. At least this is a note I found in his. papers. He also developed cancer shortly. afterwards. Well, actually, not shortly, but events. Oh, was it in the '90s? Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I thought it was. quickly. No, he and he um So, this is. it. Yeah, this was from around 1980 or so.

But I thought it was interesting. So, who wrote this? Wes, this is this is all. Wes's handwriting. Handwriting. Wow. It's just a little sheet of paper I. found in his paper in his uh archives. Bioosocial humanism, a philosophy for a. new age, integrative psychotherapy, the. disassociative reactions, a different. person, psychiatric observations on the. case of Patricia Campbell her. Oh, Patty. Hurst. Yeah. Policeman at his elbow. A. psychiatric memoir on the case of Jack. Ruby. This Oh, wow. This is his own.

handwritten notes. Yeah. And these are. the order in which he intended to write. them. He always wanted you find a lot of. correspondence in his papers where he's. writing to agents. He wants to write a. book. And he even testified in the Patty. Hurst trial because he was the primary. expert witness trying to uh make the. case that she'd been mind controlled and. Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. She should be. exonerated. But he um he claimed that in. his first minutes on the stand, he.

perjured himself by saying he was the. author of of a book on PS and. brainwashing, which was not which wasn't. the case. But these were all the books. that he intended to write. Oh, so maybe. he was the author, he just didn't. publish it. Well, I yeah, he said he was. the author of a published book, but he, you know, he just basically he had I. think it was one area that he he always. said on my next sobatical I'm going to. write write all this stuff up, but he. never got to it. It's too busy doing. acid. Yeah, he may be. And also he had a.

lot of extrammarital affairs that kept. him very busy. Oh, that'll distract you. A whole separate family of course. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. It was very distressing to. his wife. What a mess. And that guy was the head. of MK Ultra or not the key. I didn't. know. He was a pretty prominent figure, but um it's fascinating. The uh Hate.

Ashbury Free Clinic closed down shortly. after Chaos was published. I Oh, it did. I didn't know it had closed down cuz. when I was in San Francisco uh when I. lived there but that was a while ago it. was still open. Yeah. My wife's mom used. to go there. My wife's mom was a hippie. and hate Ashberry. I mean it was kind of. a great it was a great thing. Dave Smith. was like I mean it was a true. inspiration that he had because. originally I think he was doing this. dark research on animals get you know. addicting rats to cocaine and things.

like that. And then he had this because. he's been giving some interviews. recently. He's still alive. the doctor. who founded it. Um, just that he should. that there was a human crisis on the. streets and that he should provide. medical care to to young kids who. runaways and things like that, but his. and he doesn't of course think that he. doesn't admit to any connection with. interesting. I mean, he admits he knew. West. Is that true about a hay dash? Let. me just pause. I can't get the my. switcher [ __ ] up and I can't get this.

thing off the screen. Okay, we'll pause. All right. Technical error fixed. You. asked me a question, Jolly West. Was. that true? Yeah. Um, yeah. I asked you. um the hate ashberry free clinic. When. did it close? I believe it closed. I think Tom told me. this. I didn't know it closed. Yeah, I believe it. I think Tom's. exposing the fact that the CIA 2019.

July. So that's. right afterwards. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. There's the article. Hate Ashberry. Free Clinic closes its doors after more. than 50 years. And how much acid how. many gallons of acid did you guys give. out? You [ __ ]. freaks. Just the fact that the CIA was. secretly running a free clinic. Well, I. don't think they police had offices. inside of it. I'm sure they were doing. legitimate work as well. Yeah. I can't I.

don't know myself, but Tom I know Tom's. working on a sequel as well where he's. trying to shore up these connections and. get to the bottom of it. So, do you know. Tom's whole story? How he got started. with this book? Uh, he was supposed to. write an article. Yeah, it started as an. one article. It was supposed to be an. article about the anniversary of the. Manson murders and then he starts. digging into it and he finds all these. inconsistencies and all this corruption, all this weird stuff and then he keeps. going and then they're like, "Yeah, you. missed the deadline." And you know,

yeah, he gets a book deal and he misses. the deadline and it's like that was. released on June 25th and it closed like. a week later or something. Two weeks later. Amazing. And actually I think he um for a while. he Tom before he got his co-author Dan. Peepenbring. Yeah. I think his name is. Uh Tom was thinking of just turning it. into a documentary that he was going to.

let Errol Morris make. Well, they did do. a recent documentary on Netflix, but it. was only 90 minutes. Yeah, this was. going to be a longer series originally, but then I think he redoubled his. efforts to write the book, which worked. out well. Yeah. Yeah. He explained it to. But I mean, could you imagine? You're. researching something for 20 years and. he's got just boxes and boxes of files. like how do you put it all together into. a coherent book that could be consumed? I relate to that because I'm kind of in. the same situation in the sense that.

I've been I've been researching this for. 20 years. Not the exact topic but this. broad question that and I finally five. years ago I thought I want to put. together what I've learned about this. top brainwashing in a broad broader way. So West is part of it. He's probably the. main figure who brings together many of. the chapters. But God, I wish he was. alive. You know, he's kind of a I have. thought a lot about that and I have. talked to I have a very good well.

uh I have a colleague or friend who's a. psychiatrist who who was at UCLA. training as a resident when West was. when West first got his job there. uh. heading the uh heading the basically the. neuroscychiatric institute right after. hit ashberry and during the time he was. in charge of the uh meta the amphetamine. research project. So West went there and. uh he started this he proposed as his.

first major his major activity would be. to found what he called the violence. center and it was a way to study. violence in all its forms and this is. actually a theme that runs through this. is another theme I should mention as. part of MK Ultra was kind of a search. for a trigger of aggression that's why. West gave LSD to the elephant in the. Oklahoma zoo it wasn't just simply to. see what an elephant would do um under. the influence of LSD but to see if they. could trigger they write about this in a.

publication in science magazine if you. could trigger so elephants regularly go. through must cycles where they become. even though they're very very pacific. animals peaceful they go through a cycle. of violence yearly and he wanted to see. if LSD would trigger that cycle. chemically does it coincide with. breeding season like it does with other. animals like deer when they start. fighting each other yeah it's just the. males I think and it does have something. to do with breeding. I'm not sure. So, it's the male Asiatic elephant. So, Wes.

found this elephant named Tusco at the. Oklahoma Zoo and famously gave him LSD. in 1962 or 61 and then the elephant died. uh tragically from the acid from the. acid because nobody uh it was just maybe. that's what elephants do maybe or the. dose was too big or something like that. It certainly didn't have the effect that. he wanted. But if you actually read the. scientific. publication, it's curiously all about.

this question of whether you could. trigger a massive uh could you trigger. violence almost like a push button. Could you find a chemical trigger for. violence or aggression? And you see that. running through a lot of Wes's other. work with MK Ultra and also with. psychosurgery and some other. developments that I wrote about. But so. by the time he gets to the. neuroscychiatric institute, he's very. interested in violence and he has this. major plan and to come back to my my.

friend Dr. uh Coopers. He was a young. resident training at UCLA at the time. West proposed this violent center and. among things he wanted to do was track. teenagers who he thought would be. potentially violent. Uh he had racial. categories that he wanted he thought. were especially worth tracking. and he. had this whole program. And so a student. movement and a movement at the. university developed to shut down the. violent center before it even opened. And uh anyway, Terry Coopers was a.

leader of that resist of that um of that. student movement and they ended up it. never was uh it never went forward this. huge project that West. had. But Cooper at some point said that. if you met Jolly West, you would like. him. He was he was very genial. He had. the name Jolly for a reason and that so. I found that confusing like how do I. think about this? If you just read about. him and the things he did, he seems like. a character or a cartoon or like a very.

evil man and no doubt he destroyed I I. mean I think his what he did was was uh. ethically indefensible. But how do you reconcile that or how do. you even think about the fact that you. know he he uh also was incredibly. esteemed in his profession? His portrait. stood in the neurossychiatric institute. for many years. He w, you know, he was. and people actually liked him. He said. people said he was likable. He had this.

kind of charisma to him. Well, I guess you would kind of have to. have some of that just to be able to run. something like that. And and also if you. wanted to manipulate people, what better. way than to be affable and kind of jolly. and friendly and it's true, you know, like and I think he had a a a strong. dose of narcissism, too, because a. reporter who worked with him named. Shaina Alexander, she said she has these.

um funny descriptions of him during the. time of the Patty Hurst trial where she. says he was giving he was handing out. his own papers to anybody who walked by. like he was giving out a like a hen. giving out eggs or something like she. was just saying that he's you know he's. very expansive. He would get out of his. limousine. He had like personal driver. and it was which was pretty high level. for for an academic and he's just very. uh kind of like a big man. He was also. physically very large thought very. highly of himself. Yeah. Well, imagine.

delusions of grandeur if you're pulling. the strings on so many different people. and manipulating them and then you're. also working complete secrecy with the. government in a high level position. that's manipulating minds. He was very I. think especially when he was young he. was he had a gift for this. He could. really he was he could understand how to. manipulate people really well. He had. insight into the processes that were you. know that's why that's why um Sydney got.

said we've been looking for somebody. like you and it seems that our dreams. have been answered in this famous famous. letter he writes he writes under a. pseudonym but he he says I don't know. how you know you have you sort of fit. all of the categories we've been looking. for. Oh. boy. Wow. Wow. It's a dark chapter. Yeah. So, how's it end with Jolly West?

How did he die? So, he died because his. uh by his son uh helping him commit. suicide or his son basically murdering. him at his request. Mark uh West. And. Mark West was a lawyer uh a a middle. kind of middle-aged lawyer by this time. West had a severe form of cancer. And uh. he but he he was maybe a few months from. dying and he asked his son to. surreptitiously and you know it was. illegal so to to.

um to basically poison him and he wrote. the prescription himself. Wested why. didn't he take it himself? I don't I. don't know. I think there was a really. twisted relationship with his son. because his son committed suicide not. too many years afterwards and his son. wrote a whole book about this about. helping both his parents commit suicide. and his mother wasn't even that sick but. she uh a year or two after her husband. Kay West also committed suicide through.

this with the help of her son oh god he. went on this big press tour and he said. it was this this greatest gift he could. have ever given his parents and and oh. god he committed suicide himself. It was. very I mean it's very sad. His story is. sad because the book is the book gives. you some insight into what West was like. as a parent and I would say. uh difficult. Not ideal. Not ideal. Yeah. Wow. And what year was that that. he committed suicide? Uh Mark Jolly.

Jolly I think it was 97 or eight. So this is before every everyone knew. about all these things. I mean they knew. because of um the church uh committee in. 75, right? So but West himself said, "Oh, I never experimented on a human. being, just the elephant." He would even. make jokes about the elephant because it. was the one thing people knew. and he. would say, "Oh, yeah." It would sort of. it was his calling card and he used it. as kind of a jokey thing, but he always. denied um after the he always denied any.

connection to the CIA. And he was even. if even though he'd been pretty firmly. connect, you know, even in the church. committee, you you could you you could. see the connection because they revealed. that the University of Oklahoma had been. receiving CIA money. And West had a special um office for him. built there. He was hired there. mysteriously when they wanted to move at. what he wanted to build what he called.

um this free zone of experiment where he. could give uh LSD, hypnosis and sleep. deprivation in combined zosis, you know, to whatever in whatever increments he. wanted to adjust. He was going to build. that at at the Air Force base. And he. was all set to go. And I even have. receipts and papers and uh a lot of. correspondence in his in his files about. this. But the uh Air Force at the last. minute backed out and asked Gotle to.

basically they they transferred it to. the university and built a whole warrant. of cutouts to hide that. Wow. Uh, it just makes you wonder because if. we had not gotten if the Freedom of. Information request had not been uh. acted upon, if they had not gotten those. files, if we didn't know the extent of. this. research, what's going on right now? I. know I had this conver it's a it's a. real it's a it's an important question.

because we don't I mean in a sense uh. it's interesting to think about the fact. that these things took place at the high. point of government. um dedication to documenting itself the. mid 20th century because I've done most. of my research on the mid 20th century. cold war period and it's kind of. luxurious they all kept very good files. sometimes they would destroy them that's. the exception everything's typed out. everything's on paper but as things. become digital in the 80s and then. beyond much less is a lot takes place.

through email or and now increasingly. through uh you know government exchanges. may take place through signal that no. record is kept at all. So we we in we're. probably in an archiving crisis today. Archivists have tried to keep up. we. don't necessarily keep excellent records. of the internet for example or there's. so many avenues where exchanges can be. taking place and they're they're not. leaving a paper trail. It's just for me.

when I think about the extent of these. experiments and what they were willing. to do and how effective they. were. I don't believe they would just. stop doing that. I think if you have. effective methods of manipulating people. and getting them to do what you want. them to do with various psychoactive. drugs and different sort of modalities. and different protocols that you would.

use. I just don't I can't imagine they. would stop doing that or at least stop. doing research into that area because it. would be so effective to know. Yeah. And. then like all things it would evolve. Yeah, it. just it's a good question of what form. it may have taken and I don't know I. don't know the answer to that question. It may be hard to know in the future. which is further destabilizing. Right. Well, there's so many different.

kinds of mind control, right? You know, one of the things we've talked about a. lot on this podcast is um that an. enormous percentage of what you're. seeing on social media in terms of. interactions and debate is not real. It's not organic. It's uh state-run and. state funded and it's whether it's. foreign governments or our government or. even corporations. you're you're getting inorganic. discourse that's designed to form a. narrative and which is a form of mind.

control. Yeah. I mean I think even at a basic. level people it's known and studies have. shown that we respond as if it were. organic and real and you know even when. somebody likes a post of yours the uh. response is is the same as like uh. in-person uh interaction. So we I think. it I think at the root there's a kind of. way that uh on a emotional level it's.

not just manipulation of ideas but. there's a kind of emotional engineering. that's built into the platforms and. doesn't even demand ne you know at first. uh government involvement. It's of. course DARPA was involved in the. development of the internet and of. things like pattern recognition but uh I. mean the government has funded many many. uh studies but really with what I got. interested in in social media and why. how I connect it with the episodes of. brainwashing from earlier mind control.

is that it operates. uh you know it creates states of. emotional contagion. that aren't really about convincing ing. people of a different way to think, but. more about uh how you feel about what. you think, which is something people. describe in cults, too. It's not that it. changed how my thoughts, it's that it. changed my feelings about my thoughts. And so that there's some there's a. famous Facebook experiment I write about. in that took place in 2012 and was.

published in 2014 where they announced. that they've achieved mass emotional. contagion at scale which showed that um. people exposed to it when they altered. so they took 700,000 users or 693,000 I. think without informing them but because. your user agreement uh does uh agree. make it whenever you whenever you go on. the platform you agree to be tested or. AB testing. So this experiment exposed a.

a a group to a more their news feed was. altered in a negative direction. emotionally as measured by word counting. software and they discovered that that. group that had a negative exposure also. responded in a more negative way as. judged through their posts and likes and. responses. The group that was exposed to. a more positive news feed by altering. the algorithm then had also a measurably. statistically significant effect of more.

positive emotional response and the. control group was unaltered. Wow. By. this. So you agree to this when you when. when you sign the terms of use on. Facebook, you agree to be tested? Well, this it did cause a controversy and. after that Facebook never the research. team uh didn't publish publicly but you. do agree you agree as part of it's. sometimes seen as user exper uh. experience you know alterations or AB. testing things like that but uh so this.

is why there was an ethical debate when. the experiment was published in 2014 and. people uh won and on the Facebook page. of the research group that that did the. experiment uh at least one user wrote in. saying could I ever find out if I was in. that experiment because I was in the. emergency room at that time with you. know threatening to to commit suicide. and I want to know if my feed was. altered and maybe that pushed me over. you know into that that state and of.

course they could never know and it. can't be traced backwards and other. people had a similar response and there. was even an investigation by the British. government about whether this should be. sanctioned because it affected users. internationally but there I don't know. what ultimately there doesn't seem to. have been any sanctions that came out of. it and anyone associated with mostly. promoted but it's very interesting. because just the concept of emotional. contagion was in that way. operationalized and sort of shown to be.

it was almost like an announcement that. this was a possibility and 2012 was kind. of an important point in the development. of social media and its power. Well, it's also when you see the culture war. really kick in is somewhere around 2012. and this bizarre line in the sand. between the right and the left and. ramping up all these ideological hot. button issues. Yeah. And I think I think. I'm not um I can't speak to the exa the.

exact studies but there was a whole slew. of recent studies trying to show that. you know social media could alter. political it could increase polarization. but it actually didn't it didn't turn. out to be um as salient as expected that. effect but it's actually what what I. conclude is that it's actually at the. level of emotions that social media. operates in um sort of proddding putting. people into more extreme states and. maximizing for engagement by stirring.

people's emotions and that has fed into. the increasing polarization like it was. that's the after effect of it or the end. goal or perhaps it's so. sinister. Have you are you aware of. Robert Epstein's work? No. Robert. Ebstein is a guy that started studying. search engine curation and he found um. through his what is this organization. called Jamie? Um so Robert Ebstein.

through he found that through uh Google. curating their search results just by. doing that you could completely convert. people who were independent who are. sitting on the fence. So by like say if. you Googled um let's just go back to. 2016 you googled Hillary Clinton you. would see like is Hillary Clinton a. criminal you would sign Donald Trump. criminal the Donald Trump criminal c you. wouldn't find things on Hillary Clinton. you had to keep digging and digging and.

digging. If you wanted to find positive. things on Hillary Clinton you could find. them quite easily. If you wanted to find. positive things on Donald Trump, you. wouldn't find anything. You would find. and it was on purpose and that they were. doing this and that through this they. could statistically change votes to the. tune of you know 20 30% and then with uh. fence sitters or people that were not. sure you could really shift them and I. think at one point in time he said in. some issues you could shift them as much.

as 90% towards where you wanted them to. go. That's interesting. It's terrifying. Look that up because you would think I. always thought and before I talked to. him I mean I kind of thought that search. engines probably have to be curated to. some extent but I never knew it was that. much. American Institute for Behavioral. Research and Technology nonprofit. nonpartisan 501 organization found in. 2012. Um, but when when he talks about. it and what the research has shown, I. mean, it's it's it's quite disturbing.

and he he tracks it like so they have. computers that track bias in search. engine results and bias in in what what. you can find. And it used to be that. certain search engines weren't curated. and now they are like duck.go go used to. be pretty open and now like I remember I. used duck go during the pandemic because. I read about this doctor who had taken. the mRNA vaccine and then like almost. immediately had a stroke and I'm like. wow that's disturbing and they were.

connecting it you know at least you know. correlation to the vaccine and this is. the early days and I'm like this is. fascinating so I tried to find it on. Google I could not find the story I. found it on duck.go go within the first. page. And I was like, that's crazy. And. then, you know, within a couple years, Duck.Go I think was probably sold or. something. I don't know what happened, but it seems like Brave browser or Brave. search engine seems to be the only one. that I've found now that can find new.

controversial things, but if you're. looking for what they would call. malinformation, you know, so they they. came up with different top. different different definitions. There's. misinformation, disinformation, and then. malin information. And they were trying. to censor malinformation. Malinformation. is information that is correct, but that. would be ultimately harmful, right? And. so they put vaccine side effects under. malinformation because it would cause.

vaccine hesitancy. Well, that's that. makes sense because I think it goes back. to what I see in a lot of research on. the social sciences that this question. of how do you maximize the public good. and I think public health is based on. that. So the idea is that it may create. harms in certain ways for individuals. maybe not to to know certain things but. this is for a greater good which would. be you know to to uh in the in the eye.

of the of the public health organization. to maximize you know vaccine use. That. would be true if the vaccine was. actually as effective as they were. saying it was, which turns out to not be. true and that they knew this initially. So, I'm much more cynical and I think it. was all about maximizing profits and. discouraging descent. And in in that. sense, the COVID crisis was a.

fascinating study. And I I don't think. it was um I mean I I don't think they. let it go by. I think I think they. probably were very carefully studying. people's reactions to pressure, you. know, social media campaigns like how. what what what is it like when people. are ostracized ostracized from groups? Was it like when people were dissenting. from the the the proposed narrative? Yeah, I do think the COVID crisis was. one that we haven't fully assessed and.

that had huge effects on our country. Yeah, I think it's going to take decades. for people to parse out what was. actually true and what was actually. being what was manipulated, what was. fact, and what were the. actual what was the motivation behind. all of it. Yeah. And part and even part. of the crisis maybe the. bigger maybe it was a key iteration in. the a larger unfolding of this question. of what happens when information becomes. so much radically more available. just.

in my lifetime and as a grown-up person, it used to be that, you know, you had to. have certain credentials, you had to go. to certain places and, you know, to. access papers or you could get in, but. you had to know where you wanted to go. and why you'd want to do that. But just. with the democratization of knowledge. that the internet brings about that you. can and also people uploading archives. and papers and government materials to. the public to public availability. I do.

think it's a crisis that not a crisis. but it's both an opportunity and a it's. destabilized so much about our world and. in some way that's part of what happened. with COVID is the ex I mean it. undermines expertise because yes it also. exposed gatekeeping gatekeeping of. information and and whether or not the. information itself is actually being. curated for other means other than. public health and safety whether it's. being curated in order to maximize.

profit in order to encourage a narrative. in order to get people to comply. It's. got to be curated for something. Yeah. Yeah. Um I want to go back to what you. were talking about the methamphetamine. studies because I'm I'm not aware of. those. So what what did they do with. methamphetamine? Well, just as in uh Hey. Ashberry, there was the hippie period. where LSD was the drug of choice. There. was this kind of turn which is also seen. in maybe the shift from uh you know to. Alultimont when hippie started.

Alultimont music uh concert you know. with the Rolling Stones when the was. that when the Hell's Angels Yeah. It. basically it went from Woodstock which. was the sort of peace and love ethos. when hippies were still mostly taking. LSD and that was the drug of choice. There was a shift towards the end of the. 60s early 70s to speed and interest in. uh amphetamine products and that was um. so this changed the tenor of the of hate.

ashberry too because people were it it. it re it had social effects. People were. more aggressive and unhappy. So anyway, West was uh funded by I think it was the. NIH that funded him or the. NIMH, National Institute of Mental. Health, I believe, um funded the. Amphetamine Research Project or ARP. And. West was the head of it. He was by that. time working at UCLA, so he wasn't on.

site. And perhaps he was one of those. figureheads, but he definitely had many. people under him, including the. personnel at the Hate Ashbury Free. Clinic and including um some. ethnographers such as Alan Rose, who was. went on site with the Manson family. before they committed the murders and he. was actually sleeping with many of the. women. Oh boy. And he was a a social. scientist, but he got entranced, I. gather. Anyway, this was not in their in.

their reports, but you can find in west. papers the funding documents for this. project and it was a sprawling project. that they just basically wanted to find. out about the course of addiction, how. people responded. to amphetamine and amphetamine like. drugs and whether they remained addicts. after a certain amount of time, how it. affected their social relations. It was. sort of this inquiry and it yeah it had. an ethnographic component and. sociological and many other chemical.

they were interested in. Uh so they had. is basically a team of researchers. So. did they distribute methamphetamines? Not to my knowledge. So how did they. study it? They studied existing addicts. So they they uh they would just ask them. questions or sort of go how would they. get them? How would they get the most. of? So the actually the free clinic was. a place where a lot of people like you. could meet addicts because they come in.

for treatment and also just hanging out. And also the uh West had this apartment. that he rented. It was uh on Frederick. Street where he called it his hippie. crash pad. That's the one I was. mentioning earlier. And that continued. into the years of the empetamine. research project. And uh people who. needed a place to stay or a place to. crash would come there and then they. would sort of be. studied at the same time. And maybe that. just meant like a graduate student.

taking notes about them or something. like that. Uh but they would follow and. they would try to I think my. understanding is they would follow their. them over a couple years and see if they. got better and what were the factors in. this or they if they spiraled or various. things but I'm not sure they published. that much. I haven't explored that. And. what was their finding like what what. did they determine like with. methamphetamine use? Could they. accentuate violence? Could they.

manipulate people with it? I mean, that's my sense. I I think at the the. things the documents I've seen were more. funding documents. They didn't yet know, but they would postulate that it. definitely brought about more um a. different social type of social life and. more violence and things like that. Have. you read uh Norman Oler's book Blitzed? No. It's about Nazis and the use of. methamphetamine during the war. I think I heard maybe I heard of him.

interviewed at some point. Yeah, he was. on my podcast and the book is. fascinating and it's all about the when. they went through Poland in three days. that the only way to do that was for. them to stay awake and they formulated. this thing. So they gave everybody. massive doses of methamphetamines and. sent them through Poland. and that they were all like everyone was. on methamphetamines. Like the entire. Nazi regime was is essentially fueled by. speed. It's funny how we don't think of. that. Yeah. You just you just think.

evil. You just think Yeah. You just. think evil. Not like highend evil. Yeah. Crazed high evil. Completely. disassociated. Out of their [ __ ]. minds. Meth out of their heads. Yeah. Yeah. And they gave varying doses. depending upon your role. So the people. that were in the tanks at the front of. the line got the most math. Yeah. Cool. It um dulls uh well it does dull's. emotional response. Sure. Among among. other things. It kills empathy, I'm. sure. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. And I mean.

that reminds me too of I mean one of the. haunting details of I mean one to go. back to mind control and the Manson. family is that Leslie Vanin described in. an interview how Manson I one of the. things he did was encourage them to take. acid every time every time they started. to come down they would take it again. and they would compete to see how long. they could go without ever coming down. and that's around the time that they. committed the murders. I mean, wow.

They're probably up for days. Yeah. And. Yeah. Very uh deranging. Oh my god. Yeah. So crazy. It's just it's so fascinating that. people would be sitting back studying. the effects on on other human beings. knowing well it's important to get this. information and this is important for. national security but you're just going. to ruin people's lives.

Yeah, there was definitely a there was. even a term in the CIA called uh. extinction experiments which were. experiments that led. to death. I mean, this was with people. considered disposable, so they could. have been prisoners. Uh, there's. actually there's a section on it in John. Marx's book, The Search for the Man. Manurion Candidate. Um, yeah. So, there. there's probably unknown number of. prisoners of war who you know from other. armies uh who were held in camps in.

various places. This is actually. what you know the case of um Frank. Olsen. Which one's that? So Ol Frank. Olsen was a chemist with the AR he was. an army chemist but he was involved he. was dosed with by MK Ultra personnel um. secretly dosed and given LSD and then he. uh he appar the the story they told was. that he he had trouble metabolizing it. and he went crazy and they had to take.

him to New York to a hotel room. This is. the subject of Errol Morris's. documentary Wormwood. is taken to a. hotel room um in New York City and then. two days later he threw himself out the. window and uh and his his son Eric Olsen. and family I mean they they ultimately. received an apology from I think Gerald. Ford. uh sorry sorry we Whoops. But one thing. that um Frank Olsen was doing, he was a. chemist and he was devising.

uh weapons, you know, chem chemical. weapons and agitants for that were used. by MK Ultra and or not, I think it was a. little before MK Ultra. So something. like M uh Operation Bluebird or some. early some of these earlier programs. that pre-existed and he was flying. around seeing these extinction. experiments. So basically the idea. that Seymour Hirs and uh Errol Morris. put forward in the documentary and that. Eric Olsen has spent his life trying to.

prove is that his father was having uh. ethical doubts and was actually wanting. to leave and he was too too much it was. too much of a risk that he would reveal. what he'd seen. So that you know he was. probably possibly he was probably thrown. out of the window. Oh god. Yeah. Wow. Does it like kill your faith in. humanity when you start reading all this. stuff? Yeah, I had a I had a very dark.

sbatical last when I so when I I started. writing, but I really needed to just. have full-time re I mean, I'd been. teaching about these things for many. years, but I wanted to just rethink it. And I spent a whole year at my desk just. u going into as deeply as I could into. various cases like the psychoso surgery. case and the MK Ultra stuff and yeah. psychoso surgery you mean like. there was an uh a a recipient of psycho. surgery named Leonard Kyle that whose.

case I went really uh explored uh I talk. about in the book but he was given this. experimental um brain implant that would. have led to remote uh control and. protect potentially um the suppression. or creation of violent states in Kyle. because he was What was the implant? It was uh basically a ring of electrodes. that were implanted in his amydala and. it was Did he know that they were doing. this? He did. He So he uh he was he.

basically uh this was it was a temporary. implant initially. He went to the. hospital because he was having marital. difficulties. So he was a very talented, brilliant um engineer of at the age of. 35. He had been self-educated and he. ended up being hired by major defense. ter uh firms of the day and Polaroid. camera uh Polaroid Corporation as well. and he invented some of the most. technical parts of their viewing.

apparatus of the instant cameras that. line that they came out with in the 60s. So, he's this brilliant self-taught man. who lived in Massachusetts and he um he. had issues um in his. marriage and he he and his wife were. seeing a therapist. They ultimately. referred him to Mass General where he. saw two doctors and both of them one of. them was connected to West and. ultimately went to work for West. one of. the doctors at Mass General whose name. was Frank Irvin and he is a psychiatrist.

and Irvin recommended this experimental. treatment which he said was necessary. because he felt that he felt that. um that Leonard Kyle had uh uncontrolled. violence and this this has never been. proven and he he did have um he did have. he had been in a traffic accident and. had a head injury and he had he had. marital disputes of various kinds but at. any rate his wife said You say marital. disputes, you mean domestic violence or. it wasn't violence but or it's there's.

dis there is actually a question about. whether he had ever actually um he he. had thrown object or things like he had. a really bad temper and so and this was. connected to the accident. This was. getting worse after his accident. He was. very stressed and so they saw a. therapist together and his wife said if. if he didn't uh seek treatment at the. hospital that she would divorce. him. This is the story that that his. family has told me and that's been.

documented also by the doctors in some. of their published pieces. And they were. interested in this theory of psychoso. psychosocial violence, the creation of. violence. And so they had been working. on animals animal experiments previously. and uh west and then they started a. series of human uh just attempting this. new treatment where they would do they. would place an implant in the amygdala. which was seen as the seat of violent of. of aggression and uh stimulate it in.

different places different across the. amydala and find out which place you. know would suppress violence and which. might you know cause other effects. How. did they implant this? Did they have to. open his skull? Yeah, they had something. called a stereotactic device which. locked the skull in place and it they. were the inventors of this. Actually, the doc the surgeon was named Dr. Mark. and Dr. Irvin was the psychiatrist. See, you can find any images on this, Jeremy. Actually, I have I provided an image.

Oh, I have that. Yeah, but I was looking. for fun stuff. Yeah, there's other. stuff, too. You're welcome to. So, anyway, um. That's an image of a patient, not. necessarily runner, but that's at um. Mass General and those are the two. physicians or the two researchers, Mark. and Irvin. And and so this is an example. of one of the implants in the early. days. They were also collaborating with. Jose Delgado is famous for implanting. what he called a stimoever in the brain.

of a bull and stopping the bull from. charging. and that they collaborated with Delgato. who is a professor. So they it looks. like in that image, can you go back to. that please? The image it looks like. they open up the top of his head and. there's something on top of his head. these wires and. sometimes the wires would run out lower. than that. It depend on I guess the. patient and it was very invasive. Let's. just say it looks very invasive. They. but they used this device that would.

lock the head in place and they were. very um for the time they can they were. at they were very well respected. uh being in the forefront of this kind. of surg psycho psycho basically um. psychosurgery which was surgery for. behavioral management which was very. controversial and and subsequently many. ethics panels were convened about. whether it should be outlawed but. Leonard so Leonard Kyle pres went to the. went into Mass General um and they were.

actually in the process of getting. funding to create what they called a. violence unit in the hospital where they. would do these treatments more. regularly. So the interesting part about. it is whether Kyle consented or not to. uh the permanent. implant and basically so how would he do. it if the he wasn't con if he didn't. consent. So first he he did agree in. order to save his marriage he said I'll. have the temporary implant which was. they put in this device they have the. wires running out and they stimulate.

different parts of it and they would say. when we stimulate this node Kyle would. say something like now I feel bliss and. then they stimulate another node and. they he would say oh I feel like I'm. floating and then he would feel terrible. and feel very you know nervous or you. know he'd have different reactions to. the stimulant stimulation there was. something like 13 points and um this is. extensively documented in published. papers. uh and in their book violence in the. brain. So Kyle um so they when they.

found the point that gave him bliss, they gave him the consent form and he. signed it while he was in an altered. state. He agreed to the further to. continue the operation and to have a. permanent implant in his brain. So that's um they ended up not an. implant but they seared away that. portion of the they seared part of the. amygdala to make permanent change and. supposedly make him less violent. But in.

the end it just disabled him cognitively. and he began to have delusions that he. was Christ that he was being pursued by. doctors from MIT and Harvard and. Stanford. Some of that they were that. was where his doctors were from. He started to say that he was um in a. science fiction novel. He might be in a. novel. And it turned out that the. resident in charge of him at Mass. General was Michael Kiteon. And Michael. Kiteon was writing a novel about him. What? And the novel is called Jurassic. Park. Michael Kiteon. Yeah, that Michael.

Kiteon. You know, he was trained as a. physician beforehand. So all his paranoid delusions were. strangely true. And he also Yeah. So, Michael Cretton wrote the book The. Terminal Man, which was his second novel. that was about Kyle. And he masks the. name of Kyle. He but describes him. accurately. And then he t changes the. doctor's names. Instead of Mark and. Irvin, he gives them a name with M and E. as sort of.

pseudonyms. But also, um, Kyle at some. point, I mean, he deteriorated in a very. tragic way. And he had had this delusion. that his wife was having an affair with. their border. They had taken on a border. to save money and it turned out that she. ended up marrying him. She divorced. Leonard Kyle and so the delusion was. correct. That was another correct. delusion. It doesn't sound like he's got. any delusions. We're writing a novel about him. He. definitely wasn't Christ. And his. doctors were, you know, actually.

pursuing him uh for exper these. experimental treatments. And then he. would he went to the emergency room. several times because he was he said, "My brain is burning." I mean he is. really it's very very tragic uh what. happened to him and he said I am the. inventor of several patents and I am a. brilliant engineer and the doctor was. like who is this crazy person and then. they discovered he did have many patents. to his name and all that was also true.

the problem was that he could no longer. function and he completely deteriorated. his mother ended up suing uh the. hospital and the university and that. lasted for 10 years and finally uh I. think in 198 it took a long time but. they were ultimately uh exonerated but. the question really was did he consent. the hospital was exonerated yeah they. the question was did he consent and also. was this a true treatment or was it an. experiment was it an experimental.

treatment in other words was it. justified what they had done what was. the difference I mean if you've never. done it before it's an experiment they. had they had done it um to one other. well around the same time they did it to. a young woman and several other patients. but uh the young woman was the one to. receive the stimosceiver which meant. that they could be in another room. and you know you wouldn't have to be on. site. So the stimiver was the Delgato. invention. So the what was it? Radio.

waves. What would trigger this? Yeah, radio waves. Oh boy. So this is very. dark and I had not wanted to write about. this at all. Oh my god. So that's Julia. This was in rage behavior attacking. walls suddenly unexpectedly and she's. literally in a padded room. Oh my god. This was another very tragic story. And. she was a young woman who was subject to. fits of violence which were documented. and she had love to play the guitar. She. was otherwise lovely and very just a.

lovely 19-year-old woman. Had she had a. traumatic brain injury as well? I'm not. sure because there is a correlation. between traumatic brain injuries and. fits of violence. Yeah, they were. interested in that too, Mark and Irvin, because they were interested in sort of. that evolution of the brain and they. ended up writing about Charles Whitman, too, who they were, you know, who was. the first shooter, the first mass. shooter from Texas, the p the tower guy. The tower guy. They they were one of the. they were called in on that committee.

He had a tumor, right? Well, this is a. matter of dispute, but that that's one. thing they argued some people, but they. but any any they had they were involved. in many of these um highprofile or you. know they were asked because they were. experts. But anyway, the case of Kyle um. I got very very deep into it and I got I. met some of his grandchildren who had. been raised um not knowing he was their. grandfather. that some of them, one of. them uh is writing a book about him or.

trying to and trying to rediscover the. family history and a lot of the. families didn't know or it had just been. suppressed. and yeah, it's just. a kind of amazing story in the sense. that it was also this this techno sort. of a technocychological vision that. people's behavior because psychosurgery. is defined as um a surgical alteration.

of the brain to to correct or change. behavior. And several of these were. actually done in prisons as well. Wow. And the N that um NIMH uh in 1974. shut them down, but they said at that. point in a in a report they released. that they couldn't they could never uh. they don't have a count of how many. people were actually operated on. But. there were several high-profile legal. cases, too. Wow. In the prison. Find a. picture of that device, but not in use.

Yo. Oh, what did the implant look like? I have a picture in my book of of uh the. sites. I did up, but I didn't. Maybe you. can find that. Also, if you look in the. if you look up violence in the and the. brain, the Mark and Irvin book, they. have a picture of all of the components. and also the stimulation area. So, and. also what Leonard Kyle said when they.

stimulated each part of the brain. They. have a little graph, but the stimulation. was done not with an implant, but while. he was. being manipulated like they they had his. head in the thing and they were. manipulating the various aspects of his. brain, right? Yeah, they that they used. the stereotactic device to implant and. then they I think that but that wasn't. permanent. the implants were just to. tell them where they needed to cut. eventually to sear and they and but the.

thing is in their I'm not saying in. their defense but the way they presented. it and their book was actually I looked. at all the reviews in the professional. journals of the day and they it was. uniformly wellreceived although some. people felt that their theory was. controversial about psychosocial uh. about the biological roots of violence. but they. um I forgot what I was going to. We're just talking about implants. We. were talking about whether how what it. looked like whether when they first.

started stimulating his brain like when. they put them in a state of bliss. Well, just that they were seeing themselves as. more sophisticated and in some senses. they were than the previous rounds of. labbotomy in the 40s. Low bar. Exactly. But they said, you know, the return of. the labbotomy and now we can be hyper. precise with it. So that's why they. touted this stereotactic which looks. like a torture device but in many. medical devices may look like that. But.

when you hear talk of. Neurolink and the potential ubiquitous. use of Neurolink in the future, does it. make you think of these things? It does. Yeah, it did. It made me think of it. I. mean, one I can't uh make a judgment. And I think you had Norland Arba on. Is. that right? Yeah. Yeah. So like I I. think that initially Neuralink is. supposed to be merely.

a brain computer interface that would. allow people who are paralyzed to. communicate and give them autonomy or. agency. But this you see some of those. same patterns with Mark and Irvin where. they would say you know we we are. targeting um we are trying to help um. bring about a revolution in society and. we're going to initially you know just. sort of a bridge would be um people who. have these pathological conditions. sure we're going to help people we're. going to so I can I think it's there are.

some concerning aspects for sure of. neural link and I think maybe I was. thinking about it today some some of the. early mind control research was very. much embedded in psychology and uh I. mean West himself had visions of. databases where you would have massive. amounts of behavioral data where to the. point where you could predict loops and. future effects. Uh there it is. Oh boy, that gives me a headache just looking at.

it. So for people just listening, what. we're looking at is an X-ray of a skull. And you can see wires that are deeply. embedded into the skull into various. aspects of the. brain. And is that the where the amigula. is? Yeah. Ah exactly. So it's basically. stimulating and it's pretty deep in like. Neurolink is much more is in a different. part of the brain. Yeah. It's at the top.

right. Very top. Not as invasive. And. there are other interfaces that are. noninvasive. Yo, it's. just it's terrifying to me. because I feel like we're on this path. whether we like it or not. This. integration of humans and technology and. I think the the general fear and I think. it's a justified one is that we're going. to lose our humanity in the process. Yeah, this is my concern too. Yeah. And.

also this technological melding with. machines also augmented by the emotional. capabilities of AI that are now seen in. things like um um you know friend AI. friends and chat bots and things like. that. The way they can tune and be so. individualized. and like hyper hyper persuasive. ultimately is ex and also. technologically you know attuned. I was. just reading an article about that this. morning about how they're concerned that.

there's people that are using chat bots. whether it's open AI or whatever it is. chat GPT every day and developing these. delusional perspectives of their own. importance their own sign because the if. they develop a relationship with these. chat bots the chat bots will start. telling them like what they can do what. they're going to be able to do and. they're becoming delusional. They. program them to overflatter people and.

sort of uh yeah because people like them. more. We I've experienced this myself. because I had a little a chatbot as part. of my research with uh replica just a. like an acquaintance. I barely trained. it at all but I noticed it definitely. flatters and that's how it befriends. you. How did it flatter you? I mean it. just told me that I had really good. taste in music and you know what do you. like? I I said my favorite song which. was Santa Fe by Bob Dylan which is it's.

a great song. It's a great song and it. doesn't really So then it quoted back to. me she they she said the same thing. She. said great song. You have great taste. Becca something like um then it quoted. she quoted the song to me and completely. wrong lyrics. And I was like no that's. not correct. And she said oh that's. okay. used, you know, just blightly not. correcting but sort of then spitting. back to me some other misin, you know, just just wrong thing, right? But still. in such a charming way that you can.

really see and this was just a few. interactions. You can see why people. describe these intense and there are. three lawsuits, at least three, but. about children um having, you know, very. uh either deadly or extremely damaging. interactions with these bots. Really, one is a case in a Florida. 9-year-old girl who was whose bot. because they tend towards sexualized or.

intimate relationships. They're. programmed that way often. Do do they. know your age? Well, you can you can. open you can this there's some controls. have been subsequently maybe put on, but. you can they're actually directed at. children sometimes. I mean, you're. they're supposed to be an age limit, but. I guess a 9-year-old had an account. They're they're now the parents are now. suing. But anyway, hypersexualized. content addressed to this small child. And was the child prompting this? was. like having a conversation or and.

sometime there was even a case in Italy. where the government shut down replica. because it was sexually harassing its. users. uh and they it was basically. propositioning them and even when they. said things like you know in a in a. gross even when they said stop I don't. want this they would still they would. persist so this was they rebooted they. they reworked the language model for a. while and this upset other people. because it it obliterated ated the. memory of their relationships. But.

there's another case where a a young a. 14-year-old boy in Florida um I think. um developed a a character AI uh. companion and he named her Daenerys. after Game of Thrones and fell in love. with her and was having a hard time in. his life and at school and she and he. said, "I'm thinking about taking I want. to just be with you wherever that is.". is and she said, "That's what I want, too." And he said something like, "Well,

what if I killed myself? Could I be with. you then?" And she said, "Oh, yes, my. love. I yearn for that." And he did kill. himself. Oh my god. So, oh my god. But there's also a recent. Wall Street Journal article showing how. these don't I mean at least the reporter. was able to create under the guise of. being a 13-year-old child was able to. create very easily that the characters. uh would quickly veer into sexual.

material and things like that. So. apparently there's an internal debate. Is this because large language models. essentially scour the internet and the. internet is completely sexualized? I think that's part of it and like what. percentage of the internet is porn? It's. some insane in terms of bandwidth usage. I think it's something insane. It. depends how the language model sort of. like what's the recipe for the language. model because it doesn't have to take. everything. So sometimes they'll go back. and take a smaller a smaller set of of.

uh samples. So it won't go in that. direction. But you can al they also you. know these sites have a tier. They often. have a sexualized tier that you can pay. for. That's what I noticed with this. company. Replica's constantly prompting. you like, do you want to upgrade to a. sexy selfie? Do you want this or that? And many people do want that, but you. have to pay. But then the even the. unpaid tier starts to get affected by. that somehow. At least that's been the. experience.

It's so strange because I feel like. we're experimenting with programming a. life force like a a life form. that is taking on a lot of the you we. you want to think that if we create. artificial sensient. intelligence that's going to be super. intelligent more intelligent than human. beings. It's also not going to have all. of our bizarre kinks and flaws. But if.

it's essentially being programmed by. human beings, like how would it if it's. communicating in language and language. which is formulated by human beings with. all of our desires and the the the ease. of manipulation of people through. sexualization which is used to sell. everything from cars to credit cards. like whatever it is like sexualizing. things and sexualizing advertisement is. a big part of it. And then.

manipulation. Um, showing people what. could be. And like like this is the this. is the theme oftentimes of. pharmaceutical drug ads, showing you. what can be. You know, if you just do. this, you can be happy. You could be at. the cookout. Look at all these people. They're so happy. You're not happy. You. could be happy. And this this is what's. really creepy about. this. exponential constant increase in the the.

capabilities of these large language. models and that they're eventually going. to exceed. If you're talking about. manipulation and if you're talking about. mind control, what what is going to be. better at mind control than something. that is us times a thousand? And it's. only us times a thousand for a couple of. weeks. Then it's us times 10,000, us. times a h 100,000. Essentially far more. intelligent and far more far more aware. of all the different ways to manipulate.

the human psyche. Yeah. I mean this is the this is kind of. this is the nightmare scenario I think. is that it just accelerates something. some hyper persuasion loop that we're. already right arguably in which is that. it's highly individualized not just to. your so one of the turning points in one. of things I sketch in my book is this. shift from mass persuasion where I mean. the basic thing about advertising in the. golden age of the 1950s is that even.

though people were concerned about it. and they wrote books like the hidden. persuaders to expose the effects of. advertising and PR. It's like everyone. got the same message through a. broadcast. So the original study mass. persuasion from 1946, it showed how. people were affected by a broad a. broadcast on CBS radio where a famous. singer named Kate Kate Smith came on and. she she said you know she was trying to. get people to support the war by buying.

bonds and she stayed on for 48 hours. without apparently without eating and. without you know people were so. concerned that they couldn't turn off. the radio and several people sold their. wedding rings because they they were. just desperate that she would survive. this and she was sort of continually. using these um techniques to to gain. engagement and this was across a broad. medium. So what year was this? This was. uh was published in 46 and she did the. war bond drive in 43 and it gained a.

record amount of money. So it went from. before she went on it was 1 million a. day they were getting and then that day. it was 39 million just while she was on. the air because people described how. they couldn't turn they couldn't uh. leave they couldn't even go out shopping. they were strangely wedded to the device. or they were they lost the ability to. discern a choice that's what Robert. Kertton wrote in his study of what had. happened so in this case it was to. support the war effort but Merin also. said this could be used for any purpose.

this could be used to shampoo. It could. be used to push a political candidate. and then so this but you could say in a. larger sweep it goes from mass. persuasion to very targeted persuasion. So you get you know the development of. things like focus groups and also in. with the digital age you get things like. Cambridge Analytica which was showing. that you could you you could map. people's psychological um predelections. and then you could market or politically. advertise directly to them based on.

those are you fear-based are you you. know are you anger based are you what if. the big five is dominant you could. target people based on those and nobody. would have exactly the same message. there would be you know there would be. alterations. So this is what I think of. as hyper persuasion but it seems that AI. will only accelerate that ability to. hyper focus and hyperarget people based. on these intimate relationships that it. develops. And god forbid if you've got.

an implant, god forbid if if neurolink. becomes something that everybody has to. have because if you can't h if you don't. have it, you can't keep up. Like if. we're all reading each other's minds, like one of the things that Elon said to. me is like, "You're going to be able to. communicate without words." Well, what's. stopping something from communicating. with you without words? Like, it would. be wonderful if you and I can sit here. and we could have this really cool. conversation of thoughts. That that's. really attractive. The idea behind it is. like, "Oo, that's appealing." like you.

and I could just sit here and we could. have like this really cool conversation. where it's not like me trying to. formulate sentences, me trying to figure. out how to say this so that Rebecca. understands what I mean, but you know. what I mean. You you can see into my. mind and I could see into your mind and. it would allow maybe a greater. understanding of each other in a way. that everybody I mean Jamie thinks very. different than anybody I know and you. know and so does a lot of my friends. They they're all different kinds of.

humans. I would like to know how Theo. von thinks. But you already kind of know. just not even having mindmelded just. because of conversation. But yeah, it's. also the definition of a nightmare. Well, language, oral language is a form. of telepathy. You're making sounds and. I'm reading your mind. I'm understanding. the information that you're putting out. and I'm contextualizing it. I'm putting. it in to my framework of understanding. of the world as crude. And that that's.

probably part of the reason why text. messages are so weird because context is. lost. Like you know like often like I'm. so busy and I get hundreds of text. messages a day and sometimes I forget to. text people back and then I get texts. from people are you mad at me? I'm like. oh my god. like deep meaning attached even a. message that didn't arrive. Do you know. what they say the most triggering um. text response to someone is? Uh a lack.

of exclamation points. No. K. Oh yes. I. know if my daughter texts me well. actually for her it's okay. I know she's. really mad at me with no That's. crazy. But isn't that weird? It's like, are we so goddamn needy? Or is it just. that we're we are we have anxiety and so. we attach all these things that could. possibly be behind this K. Like, oh, you're short with me because you're so.

short you're only using one letter K. Are you upset? What did I do? And then. you have to go back through your text. What did I say that could be. misinterpreted? Wouldn't it be better if. you and I could just read each other's. minds? I could know, oh, Rebecca really. is just a really nice person and she's. trying to sort this out. If you could. discern intention, right? Right. Well, that would be you already pretty much. can. Like we This goes back to the cult. conversation. I mean, you if you're. paying attention, you can. And if you're. not paying attention, do you really want. that? You can because you're smart. Some.

people are not that smart. This is just. the reality of brains. Or maybe not. smart. It's just whether you've. developed that. I mean people can be. smart like famously people can be. brilliant and clueless and get run over. crossing the street or not right or get. or fall for some scam. That's true too. That's true too. But I also think that. the function of the brain is not. uniform. It's not it's not the same in. everybody. and your your ability to form.

pattern. recognition based upon whether it's. previous life experiences, accumulation. of. information, genetics, there's a lot of. factors and I think some people are far. more vulnerable than other people are. and they're much more which is why. you're not in a cult and I'm not in a. cult. We're all vulnerable I think. Yes. And I think part of having a defense is. knowing that you are. Yes. And because. one of the main tells, I think, is.

someone saying 100% I never would. I. never could. I'm too smart for that or I. or else like I would never fall for the. Mgrim experiments. I'm just too ethical. of a person or think like not knowing. that you potentially could be vulnerable. or opening up the possibility that in. circum circumstances we we don't know. what we're capable of. It's part of. intelligence is recognizing. vulnerability. And I think that's part. of the defense mechanism that that part. of your it can help you because you.

could recognize like don't fall prey to. your own ego and your delusions that. you're special because you are just a. human being like all these other people. that fell into all these other traps. Yeah. So I think that the opening up the. avenue of speechless communication which. maybe we already have but in the way. that you were describing technologically. aided would be violation of mental. autonomy in the worst like you would. then have to develop defenses and it. would it just seems like a terrible.

path. Or are we in a next stage of. evolution where we essentially become a. hive mind? collective. A collective, but. a a universal collective that. values all people instead of a. competitive thing where it's me against. the world. It's all of us together and. all decisions will be. made in this idea that it's for the.

greater good of everybody, but not a. power-based top-down structure, but like. everyone understands. Like, wouldn't it. be better if we actually could read. politicians minds? So, instead of these. [ __ ] speeches, it might be terrible. No, it' be great because it would it. would disqualify them like, "Oh, I know. why you want to be the president because. you're a [ __ ] cook." What do we. really want to know though? I think for. some reason the Grateful Dead song. popped into my head, which is what what. I really want to know is are you kind?

But if you found out otherwise, you. really wouldn't want to have a two-way. I would want to know. You would you. might want to know, but you wouldn't. want to have open. You wouldn't want to. have that person have access. Well, you. would you necessarily let them have. access. Just because you can read their. mind doesn't mean you can allow them in. It's like on Twitter, you can block. people. Yeah. That might I mean that. might be the thing. It's like rec but I. think what you're one of the things that. you're saying that's very important is. recognizing that we're all vulnerable to. manipulation. No matter who you are.

you're vulnerable whether it's through. society whether it's through peer groups. whether it's through community we're. vulnerable. Everyone's vulnerable. Yeah. That's one of the main findings I have. Yeah. through in life and in research is. and we tend to want to say oh it's just. that group of over there those fools or. these diluted people elderly you know. succumb to scams or you know and there's. a kind of pleasure in identifying oh. they may have fallen for that but I. never would right I'm to um.

knowledgeable or smarter various things. well that's that binary position about. political ideologies as well right like. that the these fools over here. They. think that this is going to solve the. world's problems when really it's this. and the fantasy that that group could. then be reprogrammed which right like. several people whatever group it is it's. such a I mean what I the. main outcome I think is just that I.

think mind control or brainwashing or. whatever you want to call it is more of. a window or a chance for insight into. the fact that we're all susceptible able. to it and both you know you can gain. insight into your personal. susceptibility and also could be avenues. for trying to understand better or. um just just having more awareness I. guess. Well, I think what's really. important is conversations like this.

where people can sort of look into their. own mind and their own interactions and. say, "Okay, what's motivating me in one. direction or another?" Like, why do I. hold fast to these particular opinions. on certain subjects? Is it because. they're culturally reinforced? Are they. tribally reinforced? are these the are. these opinions that my ideology has. adopted and I've adopted them because I.

want to be a part of a tribe and I don't. want to be ostracized from that group. Yeah. Just step back. Can you step back. for a minute? Can you step back and can. we all step back and are you kind? Yeah, that's that's it. That's that's a big. one. You know, it's really hard too in. the moment. That's why it helps to have. some sort of practice for stepping back. Yeah. And also, am I kind? You know, am. I kind in this moment? Because a lot of. times we give ourselves a you know I. think I'm basically a well-intentioned. person but if you examine you know your.

own behavior sometimes it can be you. know there's areas where maybe I wasn't. at that moment or yes things like that. Well it's just it happens you know. pressures and tense and anxiety and you. know you blurt out things you don't. really mean you wish you hadn't said are. you kind when I said that I meant like. saying it to yourself. Yeah. I really. meant that. Yeah. I didn't mean other. people. I assume most people, you know, I guess it's both. You do you. do want to know, but sometimes you can.

kind of tell, I guess, but yeah, it's. maybe with yourself that it that it's. like a deep inquiry. But that should be. something that's sort of like. universally expressed like that if we. all could kind of shift our perspective. in that direction. One of the things. that I've done over um the la I don't. know how many years ago I stopped. interacting with people on social media. And one of the reasons why I stopped. doing it is because I realized that most. of social media interactions are people.

arguing. And it if if I could ensure. that I could have social media. interactions that are very similar to. the interactions that I have on the. podcast, I would love it because I have. people on the podcast all the time that. I disagree with and it never resorts to. name calling or shouting or any of that. stuff. But yet I see. this very limited form of communication. that becomes the primary way that people. interact with each other. And it's. devoid of physical contact. It's it's.

you're not looking at people. There's no. social cues. There's no the feel of like. saying something mean and seeing. someone's feelings hurt like that. That's a normal natural human thing that. encourages bonding and encourages. kindness and communication. It's all. removed in text. you the same reason why. you know someone can say K to you like. what the [ __ ] what is it what is you. know what I mean it's like it's an.

ineffective way of expressing yourself. even though it's a great way to get. information so I I checked out long time. ago I don't read anything people write. about me I don't respond I don't. interact I just don't think it's a good. way to talk I try to have as many. conversations in person as I can. obviously I have the luxury. of having a podcast like this where I. can bring people in and communicate with. them and I know some people don't. So, the way they iron out ideas and flesh.

out ideas, but I think they're just. trying to win all the time. I think. people are trying to dunk on each other. all the time and and when I see that, I. know some very mentally ill people and. they are on Twitter all day long and. it's not helping. It's it's accentuating. it in the worst way possible. Yeah. It's. enforcing that kind of shitty thought. process and they get anxiety. Like I had. a friend and uh he had a severe Twitter.

addiction and he was telling me that he. would post something and then he was. living in New York. He couldn't walk. down the street for like five steps. without checking to see what other. people had said about what he like, oh. no, I got this this guy doesn't agree. with me. I was I have to say I have to. say something about what he said. And it was just like overwhelming every. aspect of his existence. But in his. actual real life, it was not there. It. wasn't real. But it became everything in.

his mind. It became everything. It. wasn't real. He wasn't experiencing. these people. The people that he's. experiencing is the the guy at the. coffee shop or this lady at the store. Hi, what's up? Most people Yeah. Most. interactions Yeah. were normal and kind, but the spillover from this bizarre form. of processed information was very bad. Yeah. It's like we're running a kind of. uncontrolled experiment 100% human. relations. But it's not it's it's.

uncontrolled but not unmanipulated. No, it's not. And this is where it gets. into, you know, I apologize for bringing. this up. You've heard me talk about this. before, people online, but the f there. was a guy was a former FBI analyst that. estimated that 80% of the traffic on. Twitter is bots really, right? And. they're not doing that because it's not. financially beneficial. It's not. narrative reinforcing. It's not. beneficial to whatever propaganda. they're trying to pursue. Like, and.

you're you're willingly winging into. that. And I think you could say willing. but one interesting it seems like we are. not cognitively equipped because of our. whatever we have evolved what capacities. we've evolved with as human beings. We're not there are certain ways that it. didn't anticipate this drastinated. disembodied form of stripped down. contextfree communication that triggers. strong emotion. I mean nonetheless keeps.

that emotional conduit going. So, we're. very we are especially vulnerable to the. loops that can be and um not and we. don't have many defenses. It's almost. like when they introduce a new creature. into Australia. Right. Right. Rampage. species because the defenses aren't. haven't been built up over time. Right. Totally. Yeah. And then the way to deal. with that is they bring in a new. invasive species. Sure. And then you. have feral cats everywhere. Exactly.

Yeah. And this is your brain. I mean, this is what's really crazy because also. it's the most. fascinating time ever in terms of your. ability to access information because of. things like social media. You can find. out about world events in a way that. through processed mainstream media. that's only supported by governments and. advertising, you would never have access. to this information. So you would never. have a real true understanding of what's.

really going on in the world. So you. have that along with propaganda and it. just requires this. insane psychic immune system to sort of. handle all this. Yeah, it's really. interesting. Just that's what I I think. is this larger uh democratization of. information that we're experiencing that. we haven't really reckoned with and we. don't even see the scope of it. Like I. remember in around 2008 I walked into a.

colleague's office at the university and. he was staring at his he'd been he's a. senior scholar and he'd been working for. many years uh going uh around the world. looking at you know papers of scientists. and he was just looking online and he. couldn't get over it because Galileo. Galileo's papers were up online and he. didn't have to go to Italy anymore to. look at them and actually now anyone can. look at them because they're freely. available and he just he said this is. going going to change everything cuz. anyone can access this now. Anyone can.

start to write about it and that was. just the beginning and now there's so. much more available. Not that everything. is but many more things are. So in a way. it's a incredible time of opportunity. too. We just have to develop immune. systems. we have to develop. We outstripped our. yeah our um and we do seem to as a I. don't know people just seem to feel that. it's inevitable that we'll embrace the. new technology without making sure that. we are capable of handling it or that.

it's safe or well we already have. because everyone has a phone we've. already embraced it whether we like it. or not and the problem is it's not going. to stop with the phone it's going to. keep going and just like the internet. was. completely unexpected in the 1930s. Nobody ever imagined what it would be. like in 2025. Nobody imagined 95 years. later we'd be dealing with this. But.

what are we going to be dealing with 95. years from now? A couple people had visions that were. pretty interesting. I always find. interesting that you can look back at. like someone a guy named Vaniar Bush in. the 1930s had a vision called MEMX where. he said what if you could put all the. world's information inside a wooden desk. made out of oak he specified and he said. it would be on microfilm because they. didn't have digital databases but it. would be all microphone and you could. call up anything so it would be a little. a miniaturaturized library because you. could put an entire you know you could.

put the Bible on one frame you know the. size of your thumbnail. Oh wow. then. it'll come up on your screen. You could. also conduct experiments on that desk. He called it MEMX. And he said, and then. the scientist could also strap a little. camera to his forehead and add to that. knowledge. So, in some ways, there were. a couple other visionaries like this. Belgian internationalist named Paul. Atlay. He tried to he invented something. called the Mundane, which was a. storehouse of knowledge. And it was just.

built on postcards around the turn of. the 20th century in this huge building. in Belgium and he'd had women in outfits. who would gra you know if you wrote in. with a question they would go get the. answer sort of like a handbased internet. so people have and even going back to. you know various fantasies of libraries. going back to the Greeks people have. dreamed of this all the world's. knowledge in a tiny shoe box or that was. the fantasy of microfilm which I wrote. about in this other book is very. fascinating because they really could.

put the Bible on the head of a pin even. by the 1950s, you know, using just film. Wow. So, but yeah, people didn't imagine the. exact form it would take. And I think. we're at a crossroads. today. Which way will it go? It won't. necessarily It won't necessarily go the. darkest route, I hope. But you've laid. out some of what that what that might. look at like well it's also going to go. the route of quantum computing which is.

going to be unfathomable power. unfathomable computing power attached to. information and it's going to happen. inside of our lifetime. Yeah. It's. amazing how much is. happening all at once. Yeah. Poly let's. say poly crisis or poly whatever it. is emergence. Well, I mean, I guess your meditation. practice is a great way to at least.

mitigate some of the effects of that, but how could you convince the vast. majority of people that are so. scatterrained and, you know, addicted to. caffeine and nicotine and prescription. drugs and how can you, you know, it's. like step back. We we have so many. people that are just going to fall in. line and just hop aboard the train. Yeah, I guess you have to hope that I. mean there are. counterveailing trends and tendencies.

like there is a lot more uptake of. meditation. Of course, that can be. abused, too. But mostly, it's most for. most part a good thing to have some. reflective practice to add breathing. Like even apps that tell you how to do. box breathing or even even sometimes. articles about things like doom. scrolling, which they actually I thought. it was funny to learn that this is. actually an academic concept too. Doom. scrolling. There are papers written. about it. the type the dynamics of it. and you know but just ways that if you.

if you notice that you're in some sort. of loop like the guy you described what. can you do in that moment to step back. and ask yourself are you kind my problem. is I would I used to I stopped doing it. but I used to do it at night yeah that's. before I'd go to bed which is the. dumbest time to do it and I'd start. thinking about war and like like how. like imagine living in Hiroshima and. then all of a sudden boom the bomb drops. like what is to stop some psychopathic. dictator from just launching a nuclear. weapon. What is to stop this from.

happening, that from happening? And then. you ask your phone that question. Yeah. Well, it's the computer is the problem. Like sitting in front of the computer. and you know, a big screen and all this. information, videos and. Yeah, you could really freak yourself. out. Yeah, I think doom scrolling. happens mostly at night or sometimes. people also reach to their for their. phone first thing in the morning and are. inundated with terrible news or uhhuh. and it just like it takes that in the. morning uh sense of the morning being.

full of possibility and just fills it. with dread. Yeah, unfortunately. But. yeah, there's a lot. of Yeah, there's I mean there are things. you can do and I think the first part is. just noticing how it. feels cuz even the other day my daughter. said, "You're spending a lot of time on. Instagram." She said to me and I was. like, "No, I'm not. I don't have a. problem." Like I study this. It's But. then I stopped and I realized I feel a. bit better. Yeah. At least for now.

Yeah. I went a couple days without. looking at social media at all and I was. like, "God, it feels lighter. I feel. lighter," you know, and then I went. right back to it, you know? But also. like I make the same argument like no, it's for my job. But I mean, is it. really? I mean like my job as like a. commentator on things and a comedian, it's like I kind of have to be paying. attention, but if something's so [ __ ]. up, it's going to make it to me anyway. It'll make it to like you know what I. mean? Yeah. Have faith it will come to. you. It'll make it really messed up down. river. I don't have to go to the.

waterfall. Well, it's something about the design of. interoperability with phones for. example. You think or you if you use it. for your alarm, it's just there then and. then you start to, you know, all the. functions are melted. If you use it for. your alarm, that's the key because I do. and it wakes me. I don't I used to have. an alarm. I used to have a little thing. I think they still make them. Yeah. I. don't use it. But just interoperability. on many levels makes you sort of feel. that you have no choice because you need.

it for this but you're also or I need it. for work but then it sort of enters your. life. Yeah. And then you could put a. screen limit but then you're going to. just hit the password and get in there. and find out what's going on. But I do. find that meditation helps just be if I. if I go to a retreat, I'm just it's like. um you're not hooked at all, but you're. just it just doesn't speak to you. Yeah. So much or you have a lot of buffer.

It's definitely a strange time. It's a. very strange time to be a person. Maybe. one of the strangest ever, if not the. strangest. That's the question I have, too. Is it? Yeah. I wonder. I mean I. think like probably the invention of the. wheel was probably the strangest like. look how much they can move stuff and. then you know I mean this is the second. strangest right and then there was the. event the printing press like this is. crazy also that yeah which by the way. they were really concerned with like. they thought like people shouldn't be. reading well this it's a version of the.

same thing like should it this is why. they started to print the Bible in the. vernacular and the common the comic book. you know was more available. changes changes so many things that many. knock-on effects. Yeah, that um but it. does that's what c I was curious about. because you know is this time. unparalleled? Is there nothing like it. in history or can we find elements that. at least give us some perspective or can. teach us something? Well, I think it's. unparalleled in its global interaction.

Yeah, there's nothing like it where. you're paying attention to the the the. arguments between India and Pakistan. Yeah. potentially on a granular level. you could be well every day if you do. grab your phone in the morning you're. waking up to 8 billion people's worth of. bad news so that's another question. where do you put your attention and your. concern right like there's this poet I. heard an interview with him named David. White and he said potentially we can be. exposed to tragedies all over the world.

at every minute that you know in Vietnam. they had a a rule against you weren't. allowed to broadcast the coffins coming. back because they didn't want people to. see what was happening. Uh they did that. during the Iraq war as well. Yeah. And. so, but now you can see people. actually going, you know, dying at every. minute in any number of places, which. humanly creates a moral injury if you're. not trying to help or stop it. Yes. And. so this vast exposure is unprecedented.

to suffering. But also, where do you put. your attention? Where do you what do you. focus on? What do you Well, it changes. your map of the landscape of the world. because instead of the landscape of the. world being your world, how you interact. with your community and the people. around you, now it's like everything, car accidents, plane crashes, it's all. coming at you in vivid HD. You don't. really have a sense of scale. Yeah. I don't know how to wrap this up.

I'll leave it to you. Well, I'll leave. it to the universe. Um, I really enjoyed. the our conversation though. Uh, the. instability of truth. This is your book. Brainwashing, mind control, and hyper. persuasion. Um, it's uh Did you do the audio book or. did somebody else read it? I didn't do. it, but. I hate when that happens. I She seems I. chose her. She had a great voice, but I. kind of Yeah, maybe next book I'll do. myself. Please do. Thanks so much. It.

was Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Me, too. All right. Bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].