Joe Rogan Experience #2319 - Rick Doblin

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. Quick. What a turning event. This is so. absolutely incredible, Joe. Absolutely. A series of unexpected things have led. to this day. You were supposed to do. Duncan's podcast and then Duncan and I. got on the phone and he was saying, you. know, trying to move tickets for the. psychedelic event. Yeah. And then uh. Duncan said, you know, "Hey man, you can.

have him on your show." And I said, "Well, why don't you come on, too? It'd. be really fun." Then this morning, Duncan has a root canal, like an. unexpected emergency root canal. So, so. it was just a crazy turn of events, and. fortunately, you're here. Yeah. I just. came in from Ukraine, actually. Oh, wow. Yeah. What were we doing over there? Training therapists and psychiatrists. Wow. So Ukraine has um enormous amounts. of trauma and so what I'm trying to do.

and is to go to high trauma areas and. try to talk about MDMMA assisted therapy. and how that could be helpful. What is. the legality of it over there? Well, right now it's illegal. They have these. terrible laws left over from when Russia. was in control and you cannot even do. research with schedule one drugs. Wow. Not with psilocybin, not with MDMA. You. can't even do research. But over the. last couple years, there's been a lot of. efforts by their military, by other. people to change that because they're.

aware that they have so much enormous. trauma. So, uh, couple months ago, the. Ukrainian government put out draft. legislation to change the law. And so, the training that we did was for, uh, 55. psychiatrists and therapists from. throughout Ukraine. We did it in the. western part of Ukraine, Lviv, which is. not really a dangerous area, but even. while we were there, there were multiple. air raid sirens. Um, but then they look. at their phone and they see the area.

that the air raid sirens are supposedly. about, and they could be like a 100. miles square, something like that. So, nobody seemed to care. Nobody nobody. moved to shelters, and we just ignored. these aid sirens and heard nothing. But. it's just it was so emotionally moving. because we went to the cemetery in Lviv. and they have these in cities all over. Ukraine and they have something that. I've never seen before is that they have. just enormous numbers of graves. Terrible. They've lost about 250,000.

people. But the graves all have flags. for Ukraine, but they have the pictures. of the person that's dead. That's the. person that's buried there. And I've. never seen that anywhere else. is you. just it has even even more of an. emotional impact because you're actually. not just thinking all these people are. dead, but you're seeing their pictures. and most of them are younger and you. know tragically interrupted their lives. Uh a fair number of. women and so and they put them in the.

center of the the cities. They're having. to build new grave sites all over and. this was next to a really large um old. historic cemetery. Yeah. And so it it feels to me like what. I'm trying to um do is to really go to. where people I think have lots of trauma. but don't understand some of these new. technologies, meaning psychedelic. therapies and hardly new. Well, new to.

them. So they they've been very much um. a conservative society. They don't have. legal marijuana. They don't have. marijuana. How dare you? Sorry. Um, sorry. Um, yeah. So, it was very. moving to to be there for their just the. fact that we were there that that people. felt that we were willing to come to the. country and be there with them even. though it's in this more safe part of. the country. And so, the the thought.

that we would uh the next steps would. all be philanthropy. So, I should say by. that I'm here um representing myself. I'm not talking on behalf of MAPS and. I'm not talking on behalf of LICOS, the. pharmaceutical company that MAPS uh. helped start a while ago. So, I'm just. talking for myself personally. But what. what what we're trying to do is um. really respond to where the trauma is. And next week I'm going to. Beirut, which is something I never.

thought I would be going to, but I've. been invited to speak at the American. University of Beirut and also a YPO sort. of business group. And there's the. possibility of potentially at least. starting research with MDMMA therapy in. in Lebanon as well. Do you ever get. frustrated at the lack of progress with. legalization? because it seems like so. much headway has been made on the the. made on the therapeutic front like so.

many people have anecdotal stories. of like a lot of soldiers with Ibagane. in particular, MDMA in particular that. these people have had incredible. experiences turned their life around. I. just I I I'm so baffled by the snail's. pace of acceptance of these things. Well, I first tried MDMA in 1982. So, we're talking about 43 years ago. And as. soon as I experienced it, I thought this. has incredible therapeutic potential. It.

should, it was legal at the time. And. when did it become illegal? 1985. And so it had been MDMMA had been. a it had been legal but it was sort of. quietly used in therapy circles from the. um around 1976 to the early 80s and then. it started leaking out of these therapy. circles and started being used as a. party drug ecstasy. Wasn't a lot of that. in Dallas? Yes, a lot of it was at the.

Stark Club in Dallas. Yeah, that is. really where uh MDMMA became ecstasy. Lorenzo from the psychedelic salon. I. learned all the about that from him. Yeah. Yeah. There's um a fellow named. Michael Kane is working on a movie about. the Stark Club. Oh wow. There there's an. incredible story because Larry Hagman. who is the star of Dallas uh frequented. this uh nightclub with a bunch of the. people from the cast and they had um the. police had decided to bust it um because.

they knew that there was all these. experiencing. No, no, that that the they. had to they they were all prepared to. bust the Star Club that night and. unexpectedly J.R. Larry Hugman showed up. and they canceled the bus because they. thought it'd be too embarrassing to bust. him and they busted it another time. He. was on CNN once and he was talking about. how he's not afraid of death because he. had an incredible LSD experience. Yeah. Did you ever see that? I did. Yeah. And. and the reason they were like what?

Well, he did LSD therapy in the 60s. The. reason that I even knew that is my. mother-in-law read his autobiography, and he talks about being uh doing LSD. therapy in the 60s. And so my. mother-in-law said, um uh you might want. to try to contact this guy because maybe. he's got overlapping interests and he'll. he'll help out. And um it took me a. couple years to get to him, but. eventually I did. Um, I'll tell one. funny story is that I got to know him. pretty well and I would stay over at his.

house a bunch of times in Santa Monica. and and but um he was also in I Dream of. Genie. Oh yeah. So I Dream of Genie is about this genie. that comes out of this bottle. He's an. astronaut. Um, and a friend of his had. made a bong out of the genie. bottle and uh they they wanted to market. it and and Larry said, "No way." You. know, so there was only um you know, two. versions of this uh genie bong and I had.

one of my more humorous moments was. smoking pot with Larry Hagman, the genie. bong. That's hilarious. It's so funny. when a guy plays this like straight. laced, greedy kind of psycho on a. television show, a soap opera show, and. then in real life he's a stoner. Oh, he's incredible. Yeah. Isn't that. interesting, though? It's like cuz you. would never guess that from the JRU in. character. Oh, right. No, he was very. much pro- psychedelic and and had.

multiple experiences during the 60s. And. the CNN interview was wild, though, because they were there. I remember. watching it going, "Oh, you guys weren't. ready for this." is what he said that. they're like, "What? You're saying. acid's good?" It's like literally the. opposite of the Bill Hicks joke. You. know the Bill Hicks joke like you never. hear like a good drug story. It's always. young man on acid thinks he can fly like. dies, you know? It's like But that was. the one time that a positive drug story.

from like a beloved star of a beloved. show. Yeah. It was the most popular TV. show in the world at some points. Yeah. Um but about your question about. frustration um yes the answer is yes but. it's important not to be um overwhelmed. I guess by frustration is just to. continue plotting along. Um, we've just passed MAPS's 39th. anniversary. Um, April 8th. Um, I had,

um, 1986 is when I started MAPS. And. when I started MAPS, I didn't really. know that it would ever succeed, that we. would ever make MDMA into medicine. It. was the height of Nancy Reagan and Just. Say No and the escalation of the drug. war, the worst times. And I realized. that it was worth doing working towards. bringing psychedelics forward whether it. worked or not. And that's what really. gave me the um the mindset to not be. overwhelmed by the frustration by how um. many obstacles there's been because I.

always had this feeling that um we need. this kind of healing. we need this. access to these. experiences and it's been a tragic when. we think about the number of uh veteran. suicides for example that are happening. every year and if the Drug Enforcement. Administration when they made MDMMA. illegal in 1985 they did that on an. emergency basis we were in the middle of. a lawsuit against the DEA um what's. called an administrative law judge.

lawsuit and we were challenging this uh. arguments for making it um into a. schedule one drug. And we actually won. the case. Wow. The the judge said it. should be schedule three, which means it. should be available as a medicine, but. it should be um illegal otherwise for. recreational use. But administrative law. judges only give advice to the agencies. that they're working in. They don't. compel. You have to get out of that into. the civil courts. So the judge said.

schedule three and um the Drug. Enforcement Administration said no way, we're not going to do that. And their. rationale was so wrong. So we sued them. in the appeals court. What they said. initially was that only the FDA could. make a drug into a medicine, not the. DEA. But the law was clear that it could. be the attorney general could do that. So the appeals court when they um review. agency's decisions, they don't tell them. what to do. They say, "You did something. wrong. now rethink it. So then the DEA.

said, "Okay, we're going to rethink it.". And then they came up with a new reason. why they were against it. And this was. this eight-part standard that was. essentially the same as the FDA. So then. we sued them again the second time. And. uh we won again in the appeals courts. And so they they went back to the DEA. and said, "You have to come up with. another rationale. This one doesn't work. either." Oh my god. And then they came. up with a five-part standard that was. sufficiently different but still had. phase three studies. So it's essentially. the same as FDA approval. And finally.

the courts upheld that and that's during. this process it was clear to me that the. DEA would not do anything to make this. available as a medicine that we would. have to go through the FDA and that's. where MAPS began as a nonprofit. psychedelic pharmaceutical company. focused entirely on donations and the. intention was to turn it into a generic. drug that because MDMMA had been. invented by Merc in 1912. It was in the. public domain. It was used as a therapy.

drug before I even knew about it. And. then it turned out that the emergency. scheduling that DEA did in 1985 was. itself um illegal. It turned out that. the Congress had given um the attorney. general the power to emergency schedule. drugs, but the attorney general had. never subdelegated that power down to. the DEA. So, they didn't have the. authority to do that. So the people that. got busted in the first year were all. let go once their lawyers figured this.

out. So wow. So the first move to. criminalize MDMA was a crime, you could. say. Wow. And but we're stuck. And so. when we think about if MDMA had not been. criminalized, how many people's lives. would have been saved? How many people. would have been able to. um benefit from psychedelics? because. one of the things that we're going to be. talking about at the psychedelic science. 2025 conference uh the 16th to the 20th. in June in. Denver we have over um 500 speakers we.

had over 1500 applications there's an. enormous amount of research taking place. with psychedelics with psilocybin with. ibeane with MDMA with 5 DMT with a whole. host and the healing potential of these. are incredible and yet they've been um. kept away from people by these. prohibitionist laws. And so it's it's. enormously frustrating and tragic. And. yet if we let that overwhelm us, then uh. we're not going to work as hard to make. it happen. So I've had to learn how to.

deal with that frustration. Well, it's. just a gross distortion of the legal. system. You know, there's no reason why. they should be illegal. As long as as. long as you have. whiskey and you can get aderall easily. on a prescription like and oxycodone is. readily prescribed like this is crazy. Well, it's counterproductive. Yes. It's. not even, you know, like stopping a lot. of the benefits. It's actually creating. more harms. Um, just as one example, my.

father was a pediatrician. He's no. longer alive, but he worked on the first. study with crack babies. He and his. partners did the pediatric evaluation. And you remember this in the 80s. This. idea was that there's going to be this. whole generation of super predators and. these women that were pregnant with. crack were having uh babies that were. addicted and they were going to be um. mentally deficient and prone to violence. and this whole scenario that Reagan. amplified, right? And what my father and. his partners found out was that um that.

really these kids could recover, that. they could do better. um that it was. mostly malnutrition, poverty. It's not. like fetal alcohol syndrome, that it was. really not this direct connection. between the crack cocaine and the. problems with these kids. But what he. found was that the women that were. pregnant and were addicted were driven. away from [ __ ] phone is dinging. again, man. Just put it on do not. disturb. Yeah, let me just turn it off.

all you boomers and your goddamn. gadgets. Boomers. Yeah. Um but he found that these women. were um dissuaded from seeking. treatment. Why? Because they were. worried that they would have their. babies taken away from them because they. were worried they were going to go to. jail. So the drug war is. counterproductive in that the people. that need the help the most are driven. away from seeking it because of the. stigma and shame and criminality. But. then they screw up sometimes and do like.

what Portland did where they just go. everybody just do whatever you want. And. then unfortunately you've already set a. culture where you've allowed people to. do fentinel in the street and meth and. whatever the else they want and then. then the laws pass where you. decriminalize everything. It's sort of. it's legal free-for-all and then. unfortunately you have chaos and then. they pulled back the law because it was. just too much. People were going there. just so they could get high. Well that's. the important point what you just said. people were going there. So what that. means is that um and we saw this in.

Zurich. So there was a place in Zurich. uh multiple decades ago called Needle. Park where they decided to provide um. access to health care, access to safe. injection sites, things like this for. heroin addicts and others in Zurich. And. it was working uh because when you treat. people as humans like that, they will. often seek other treatment. Um and then. if they're not necessarily criminals, but then um people come from all over. and overwhelm the capacity because it's.

this one humane site and then it became. an open air drug market. Just just. people from all over Europe started. coming and then they had the backlash. Yeah. So I think it's something somewhat. similar in in Portland where you try. some of these things on a local basis. but then it attracts people from all. over and then it turns into the opposite. of what they'd hoped. Right. Yeah. And. it's just I just think also they had. gone through the whole defund the police. thing. So there's this they were just. overwhelmed by cases and the Portland. just out of [ __ ] out of control. It.

was a lovely place a few years ago. Just. a lovely place. 10 years ago Portland. was amazing. It's all a bunch of. sweethearts and hippies. They were like. so calm and they got something happened. and people got radicalized and then the. tents the people the camping on the. street once that happened and you. tolerated people just putting tents up. in the middle of the city. It's like. can't don't ignore these people like. either help them out or tell them they. have to move or do something. You can't. just clog up your city with mentally ill.

drug addicts who are intense. That's. crazy. It is. And it it's hard to have. these local solutions because it it. attracts those people. Exactly. So it. people probably got on trains to go to. Portland and get high. They did did. So. so these kind of solutions I think. people take the wrong idea from them. that the solution itself was the wrong. idea but I think it's when you do it on. a local basis like that and not have it. widely distributed. So basically the. idea is that you have people that have. uh problems with substance abuse of all.

kinds. Uh we don't criminalize um people. who are alcoholics. They can go to AA, they can go to other things. They're not. um stigmatized and they're not worried. that they're going to be arrested, right? And yet they can go for help and. you have a lot of people that actually. do that. Yeah. Um and I think that's the. kind of humane approach. But that's. where we should be leaning as a society. That's a healthy intelligent society. And also we should be paying attention. to the people that report great. benefits. Like there's just too many. Well, luckily we have guys like Rick P.

Rick Perry and Rick Perry who was the. Republican governor of Texas is now in. really in full support of this Ibegan. initiative. It's wonderful. Yes. Well, Rick Perry will be speaking at the. conference. Fantastic. As will Brian. Hubard. So Brian too. The work that you. did to have uh Rick Perry and Brian. Huard on your show and how much that. brought attention to the Ibeane. possibilities was incredible. Well, it's. my feeling is if a guy like Rick Perry, who's this like straight nose.

conservative, you know, right-wing kind. of a guy, if he can open up his eyes to. that and open up his heart to that, it's. available for everybody. And there's. this very binary position that people. take in regards to. their their thoughts on psychedelics. It's either it's for losers and people. that want to escape. reality or o or you know if you're on. the side of the people that have. experienced it, you don't get any of.

that, which is what which is so weird. for me. So the the people that think. that it's for losers and it's all just a. bunch of people just trying to escape. reality and they're lazy and they're. none of those people saying that have. ever done it. So, if you can get just a. few of them to do it and tell their. friends, you know, if we had like. legitimate therapy centers because. everybody needs a little help. I'm not. saying you need to get off heroin, you. know, like I'm not saying you're you're. coming back from Afghanistan. I'm not. saying anything crazy help, but like.

everybody could use just a little. therapeutic help to give you a fresh. perspective. And I think if that was. available to a lot of people that are. just generally depressed, I think we. could change the tone of the country. I. really do because one of the things that. bums me out the most about especially. the interactions that people have on. social media is like it's all negative. There's it's all negative. You're you're. you're living in these rare moments. You. have a a a finite amount of time. A.

hundred years is so quick. It goes by so. fast and you're wasting it, yelling at. people on Twitter. For what? For what? Like commenting on things all day long. in anger and disgust and look where this. country is. Like what are you talking. about? Everyone's perspective needs a. little help. Needs a little pickme up. Just a little something to go, you know? I think we're okay. I think we're going. to be okay. I think that there are so.

many possible benefits from having. psychedelic clinics all over. All over. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about right. now there's several thousand ketamine. clinics, but one of the um issues with. ketamine clinics is that many of them. provide um ketamine without therapy. Whoops. So, I I. Yeah, I met a lot of those people. Yeah. Yes. So I think the key point is that. when we talk about psychedelics, when we.

talk about the clinics, it's not here. take this pill, right? It's here take. this pill in a therapeutic context with. therapists there to help you process the. emotions with an expert, someone who's. experienced it themselves who can help. you. Yeah. And then with the therapy. afterwards, which we call the. integration process. So it's not just. the experience itself, it's the. preparation to be open to whatever. happens. It's the experience. And then I. I just was the other day with a woman. Gul Dolan who is a neuroscientist and.

what she's talked about and what she's. discovered is that psychedelics are. these rare substances that have the open. up what they call the critical periods. So it's neuroplasticity. It's this. ability to rewire your brain that stays. for sometimes weeks or longer. With. ibain it can be several months after you. have the experience. So that the therapy. that happens afterwards, the work that. you do to integrate it has special. potential to make long-term changes in. your behavior, in your brain circuitry.

And so psychedelics are unique among. substances. People are trying to develop. non-csychedelic psychedelics that do. have this neuroplasticity. property, but they open up this. potential for long-term change if you do. the therapy afterwards. If you focus on. trying to what the insights that you had. during the experience and then try to. make them into permanent behavior. patterns. That's really fascinating. It's also so typically human that we try. to develop non-csychedelic versions of.

the same thing. Like we could we could. do better than nature. Yeah. God was on. to something but you know he had an. early plan. It wasn't really fleshed out. yet. Right. Well, one one of the things. that that was really um impactful for. Rick Perry was uh Morgan Latrell who's. now a member of Congress, right? And so. um Morgan had uh very terrible uh trauma. from his military service and eventually. was able to um experience I gain and.

from that he was able to um get a lot. better and it there's a a researcher. Nolan Williams who will also be at the. conference who's done work with Ibeane. and a lot of the Navy Seals and others. that have gone down to Mexico and he's. done studies of their brains um with. traumatic brain injury and have shown. before and after that that some of them. actually do have this uh recovery from. traumatic brain injury. Yeah, it's. pretty phenomenal. It's it's also helps. people with other neurological disorders.

like it's help people with Parkinson's, right? Yes. And that is where it could. make sense in certain ways to have. non-csychedic psychedelics, right? But. also, why not if I gain work? Well, get. them on that you already have. Parkinson's. What are you scared? Well, and then Yeah. And then you get the. insights though as well. Yes. So, so but. there's people that might not want that. It's it's difficult. It can be. But why. do they not want it? They don't want it. because of propaganda, you know, they. don't want it because someone, you know, there's the stories of like uh Sid.

Barrett from Pink Floyd or, you know. what I mean? Like the stories of people. losing their mind. That's what people. are terrified of. I think with some. people, honestly, that's a valid point. Now that you're saying that, there's a. bunch of people that are like very. psychologically vulnerable and maybe a. profound psychedelic experience wouldn't. be m it wouldn't be it wouldn't be. tenable. They wouldn't be able to handle. it. You know, that that's a that's. possible. There's a bunch of people that. have they they're in a bad state. Maybe. they're on a ton of medication just.

keeping them stable. They can't do. psychedelics. Maybe them a. non-csychedelic version of that that. rewired their brain would be beneficial. now that I think about it. Yeah, there. there is actually a a situation with. cluster headaches. So cluster headaches. are like um suicide headaches. They're. worse than migraines and there was uh. this is now back around 2003. A bunch of. the people who had cluster headaches. One of them went to a a party did. mushrooms and found that it postponed. the cycle and would interrupt the cycle.

of these cluster headaches which are. terrible. And so they contacted me and. they for formed this group called. Clusterbusters. And they said, "We don't. want to be criminals anymore. We would. like to study this. Can you help us. study this?" And I um live in Boston. right next to MLAN Hospital, which is a. part of Harvard Medical School. And I. approached them and I said, "Would you. want to study these people with um. cluster headaches?" And they said, "Sure, this is really interesting." So. they brought in all these people and. checked their medical records and and. determined that this was really the case.

that that um psilocybin and. LSD blocked u cluster headache cycle and. and postpone the next cycle. And so we. did all this research and then um the. next step would have been to actually. give LSD or psilocybin to people with. cluster headaches. And the people at. Harvard like, "Oh, Timothy Liry, he was. here. We don't want to do this." You. know, damn it, MK Ultra. All of that. They ruined it for everybody. Uh, well, we're trying to get over that, but they.

did. And um, but then the people at. Harvard said, "Well, we will do this LSD. or psilocybin, but only if it's the last. resort, only if everything else fails.". So the scientists um Torson Paci and. John Halpern um decided that they would. use a non-csychedelic version of LSD. called Brmo LSD. And the plan was that. they would give this bromo LSD to a. bunch of people with cluster headaches. It would not work. And then they would. come back and say, "Hey, we we need to. do this LSD and psilocybin research." So.

I said, "Okay, that makes sense. We have. no idea why LSD or psilocybin works, but. it's probably connected to the. psychedelic properties of it. Mh. And so. they did this study at Hanover. University in Germany and I I kept. waiting for the results and waiting for. the results and they wouldn't I I heard. nothing and then after months they. finally said we didn't want to tell you. but the bromemod works even better oh no. than the LSD and the psilocybin because. with LSD you know it's effective in. micrograms you know you for psilocybin.

you take 25 milligrams for a major major. trip but with bromemod you can give. large amounts of it because you're not. getting. Oh, and whatever it does, it's still a. mystery what it does in the brain, but. it works better. You just flood the. brain. So, that's actually a good. example of a non-csychedelic psychedelic. for a physiological. problem that uh could make sense as a. medicine. Yeah, that makes a lot of. sense. It makes a lot of sense with the. dose especially. Yeah. But that's great.

though. At least that way like we found. something out. Yeah. Yeah. And actually. when I you when they finally told me. that it worked and that they didn't want. to tell me, I said, you know, I'm. interested in psychedelic therapy. If. I'm also what's best for patients, so. that if this bromelstd is best for. patients, that's great. I'm it's not. upsetting me at all because we're. talking about it anyway for a. physiological thing and I'm interested. in the therapy part of it. And so. unfortunately, talk about being.

frustrating. Um Carrie Turnbull is a a. philanthropist and he's trying to make. brolasty into a medicine, but he's um. been unable to raise all the funds that. he needs to do that. And so this was a a. treatment for a terrible disorder that. was identified over about 20 years ago. and it's still not been made into a. medicine. God damn. And so those are the. things that are frustrating because it's. not even psychedelic, right? That's. crazy. You know, it's just too close to. psychedelic. Yeah. It's too related by,

you know, so by association. Yeah. So. Morgan Drell was a big example to. educate uh Rick Perry. Morgan will be at. the conference. Uh Congressman Jack Berg. Bergman, who's leading an effort um in. Washington to have a group that's trying. to um collect a lot of support, bipartisan support to make psychedelics. into medicines, will be there. The. military aspect of it is very important. because they're generally very. right-wing guys. Yeah. And and women,

you know, like they serve their country. They, you know, they're hard-nosed, disciplined people. Yeah. If they can't. experience it, they can realize, you. know, I've always said that like I try. to act as a bridge between the. meattheads and the ptheads. You are a good bridge for them. I'm the. bridge. Here I am. I'm Oh, you know what. Timothy Liry said, which is phenomenal. And and tell me if this is true for you, okay? He said, "If you want to be a. bridge, you have to get used to being. stepped on." Oh, that's for sure. Yeah,

I'm pretty used to being stepped on. Yeah, but I mean, not necessarily for. those positions because uh the idea of. pot and uh a lot of these other things. is that it makes you lazy. And you'd. have a really hard time convincing. anybody that I'm lazy. That's very hard. I'm pretty disciplined. I don't believe. that's the case. I don't think it's just. I I don't think they're mutually. exclusive. like you have to have either. discipline or be able to. enjoy expanding your consciousness. I I.

think in fact it enhances your. perspective which enhances your the. understanding of the value of discipline. and hard work and of honesty and of like. doing things the right way. Like you do. things the right way, you genu genuinely. feel better. And if you ever have trips. like whatever even in the century. deprivation tank like sober getting in. there the they're better when you live. the right way. You don't have any demons.

or as many you don't have any regrets. You don't have think do the right thing. It's could be a good person like it's. it's not that hard to do. And the fact. that it's been conflated with laziness. and narrwells and all that stuff like. that's nonsense. Some of the most. ambitious people I know smoke weed. Some. of the most hardworking, interesting, creative people I know smoke weed. They. enjoy it. Well, one of the best examples. is Carl Sean. Yes. One of the best. examples. And he he had to hide that.

though for decades because he was. worried he would lose his security. clearances. I was trying to tell that to. someone who was a scientist once off air. and they didn't believe me. I'm like, how do you not know? How do you not know. Carl Sean is was a huge pot smoker? Right. Well, Lester Ginspoon was the. doctor at Harvard Medical School who was. one of my mentors and he was close. personal friends with Carl Sean and. Lester was an expert on medical. marijuana and he had a book about. experiences with marijuana. Carl Sean. had to tell his story under a pseudonym.

Wow. Because he didn't really want to be. known for that. But well, it's a. different time period and that's why. guys like him were so brave, you know, just to talk about it at all. You could. risk everything. He was the guy. explaining science and astronomy to. everybody and explaining the cosmos. We. found out that guy's a stoner. Like, oh, it's all out the window now. Oh, yeah. And his wife, um, Andrean was on the. board of directors, uh, of the normal to. legalize marijuana, national. organization for the reform of marijuana.

laws. It's just it's very frustrating. for me because when I was a young man um. I remember thinking that eventually all. this will be worked out and you know by. the time I'm 35 or something like that. there won't be any more drug laws about. things that are beneficial. I really did. believe that I now I'm 57. I'm like oh. my god it's not changing. Oh my god it's. it's this shit's taken forever. It's. been decades of everyone knowing decades. of the internet. Before the internet,

you could kind of ch well propaganda was. very effective. You know, the reef. madness stuff and all that craziness. that they pumped into people's heads. Like that was the 1930s, man. And that's. still effective today. There's still. people today that believe all that. stuff. Well, you just shared with me. before we started talking about the the. Texas law that's trying to If you could. maybe share a bit about that. Um, Ken. Paxton, who I've met, I like him. Very. nice guy. Uh, I I don't know why he did. this, but Austin had decriminalized marijuana.

So, apparently the attorney general's. office sued Austin. And what is the. ruling on that? I don't know if they. even have acted on this or if they're. going to appeal or what it is, but. like here's the thing. about something that's not fully legal. And I've talked about this before, so I. apologize to anybody's heard this. John. Norris, who's a friend of mine, who's. been on the podcast, who was a game. warden in California. And he found a.

diverted stream and they were trying to. figure out what's going on. They figured. some farmer [ __ ] up and like what's. going on here? And like fish were dead. And so he's a game warden. So they have. to track down what happened with this. stream. Finds this huge grow up in the. middle of the national forest run by the. cartel. And then his entire operation in. the decad's future becomes a tactical. force with bulletproof vests and dogs. and guns fighting the cartel in the.

forest in national forest because they. were growing it all in America and then. just selling it. like 90% I believe he. said 90% of the marijuana that was sold. in states where it's illegal was coming. from California and they were using very. dangerous pesticides and herbicides. stuff that's completely illegal if uh. you were growing it naturally if you. were grow growing it normally and. because it's illegal you have organized.

crime that's providing it to people like. it if it was legal we could only buy it. from like you buy your [ __ ] groceries. you buy organic fruit, right? You buy. organic vegetables. You'd buy organic. marijuana. You would know the people who. are growing it. You could meet the. farmers just like you can meet people. from white oak pastures. You'd meet. people from [ __ ] Happy Green Farm. And you would know where you're getting. your stuff. You know, there's no. fentinel in it, which is apparently. they're talking about that now. Yeah. You're not helping anybody. You're only.

hurting people. Now, if your goal is. just to hurt as many people as possible, yeah, make more laws. Yeah. Keep making. keep locking people up. lock people up. for for things that don't hurt anybody, even themselves. Well, the other part of. it is is the tax money. Yes. Too. when. you're letting all this money go to the. uh underground to the cartels to the. criminal gangs, you're alternatively you. could have it as taxes and it could make. it easier on the rest of us on I could. see as an argument if you were the. attorney general and you said you are.

propping up organized crime by allowing. it to be decriminalized and the people. that are growing it and selling it in. Austin or the people that have it in. Austin are all committing crime so. they're probably cartel people or I. could see that argument kind of. But you. know what the [ __ ] solution to that. is? Make it legal. This is dumb. We can. just buy whiskey anywhere, which I love. Nothing wrong with it. But you can go. buy I have a bar, you know? I I'm a drug. dealer. Literally, I'm a drug dealer. I.

have a bar. I own a bar. I sell drugs. Alcohol is a [ __ ] drug. It's just a. sanctioned legal drug that we pay taxes. for. And we, you know, the alcohol. commission has to check, make sure we're. doing everything right. But it's drugs. And it's way more dangerous. And. prohibition of alcohol actually in the. in the 20s led to organized crime. Yes. In America. Yes. Alapone. All that. stuff. Propped up organized. What also. led to NASCAR too, though. You know, pretty cool. They figured out how to. soup up some cars to get away from the.

the cops, right? That's what NASCAR came. from. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. But it's so dumb. It's so. like and everyone who enjoys a little. alcohol with a a you know drink at a. social gathering, there's nothing wrong. with that. There's nothing wrong with. that. Let people do what the [ __ ] they. want to do. We're all going to die. someday. And if people are having good. or bad experiences on any of these. substances, it's up to them to manage. their experiences. Like I don't get. along with alcohol. I won't drink. alcohol. I don't get along with.

marijuana. I don't want to try. Okay, good. That's okay. It's all fine. But. like let people who enjoy it have it. It's dumb. Well, this idea that we're. all going to die one day, one of the. most important uses of psychedelics is. to help people at the end of life who. are scared of dying, right? And also for. paliotative care. So there's a lot of. research that's been done with people. with life-threatening illnesses who are. anxious about dying, right? And have. received either MDMA or psilocybin or. LSD in the 60s. Yeah. So that the kind.

of big fears that we have about illness. and death, when people are not able to. process those fears, it just gets worse. and worse. I wonder how many people. Larry Hagman turned on. Uh, you know. what I mean? That day on CNN, there's. probably millions of people watching. Larry Hagman saying, you know, I'm not. afraid of death because I had an LSD. experience and I realized that it's all. just connected. Yeah. Well, if it wasn't. for my mother-in-law reading his book,

wild, you know, and he became a big. supporter of maps and and he spoke out. in public, that those are the kind of. dialogues that change people's minds. Yeah. Um, you know, there's been some um. we have a lot of I live in Massachusetts. where marijuana is legal. Marijuana is. legal in California and Colorado and all. these states. They're doing really well. economically. Oh, it's a huge tax boom, especially like Colorado had the. craziest taxes. when is it like 39% or. something at one point and everybody's. like okay because it's first of all.

economically like if you want to go out. for a night drinking that's going to. cost you a couple hundred bucks you know. buying a round of drinks for your. friends round drinks here there it's you. a couple hundred worth of marijuana. you're stoned for a month like you're. just stoned forever and if you have to. pay 39% tax like okay like I hope it. fixes streets like I'll give you my tax. money I'm not scared of paying t I want. to pay taxes if you were doing good. stuff with it. Is it helping pay for the. schools? Great. Let's get great schools. and a lot of people smoking weed.

legally, but not kids. You know, that's. the other thing. Like, we need education. for children to let them know like it's. not good to alter your state of. consciousness, especially on a regular. basis. When you're young, there's some. developmental issues that come along. with abuse. Well, this is with abuse for. sure. Abuse. Abuse. Definitely. For. sure. One of the things that's um pretty. interesting is look at the cultures that. have successfully integrated. psychedelics like for example the Iwasa. churches that are in Brazil or the. Native American church that uses peyote. often for Native Americans that have.

problems with alcohol. I was out on a. Navajo reservation. This is about 20. years ago and it was for a a Native. American p church peyote ceremony and. one of the Navajo men brought his. nine-year-old son to take peyote and. spend the night with us. Whoa. And. peyote is masculine, right? Peyote is. masculine. Yeah. And um uh Wuma is from. San Pedro. Cactus is also that has. masculine in it. But this nine-year-old. did not take the same amount of peyote. as the rest of us, but he took more.

appropriate for his body weight. And. it's within a cultural context, within a. family context, within a religious. supportive context, these cultures tend. not to have age limits. Right? So I. think when you talk about the. developmental problems that come from. abuse, that's totally the case. But when. you talk about occasional use for. inspiration, um particularly when in a. ceremonial setting, in a ceremonial. setting, which has been for centuries. and centuries, they've refined it.

There's no neurological damage that. comes to your brain from masculine, right? This ceremonial settings are very. important. And I used to think it was. foolishness. I think ceremony is like. get the [ __ ] out of here with your. ceremony. I was cynical, you know, but I. think that in even rights of passages. like into adulthood, I used to think. that was foolish, too. But then I. realized like, wow, a lot of people have. a hard time determining if that they're. an adult and they stay kind of infantile. for their entire life. especially. someone that's like really coddled by. their parents and over overprotected.

helicopter parents. You never develop. the ability to be solitary and just to. be out there on on your own and. autonomous. and things that are important should be. treated with respect and that's where I. think ceremony comes in. Yeah. One of. the things that I think has led to my um. interest in lifetime use of psychedelics. was been the failure of my bar. mitzvah to to actually turn me into a. man. Oh, that's hilarious. Because I'm.

the old You thought you're going to be a. man. That's it. I'm going to be a man. I. was I wanted to avoid all the. awkwardness of adolescence. I'm the. oldest of four kids. Um so I had no. older siblings to tell me. And we did. this right of passage and it's been used. for thousands of years. And I just had. this somehow this idea that there would. be some um visitation from God of some. way that I would be one thing the. morning of my bar mitzvah and I would be. something different the next morning. And I I remember waking up in bed uh the. next morning after my bar mitzvah and.

I'm like I'm the same. This particular. right of passage didn't work. And and. you know you're 13, you're not so smart. And I was like well you know God must be. busy. A lot of people got got bar. mitzvah if you know it's like Christmas. on your own. Eventually God's gonna get. to me. Yeah. And so every day for a week. I would wake up and think is today the. day. Am I different? Oh wow. Nothing. happened. And then finally another week. and another bar mitzvah Saturday came. along and I realized that if I was on a. list I have now been dropped off the.

list completely because there's all. these new people bar mitzvah. and and. the rights of passage that we do have I. believe probably worked in the past for. a lot of people and they did have this. demaration between different ages. People didn't used to live that long. either. So 13 was kind of a a transition. point, right? But it was when I was 17. um almost 18 that I first did LSD and my. one of my very first thoughts was this. is what my bar mitzvah should have been.

because you know you're like who am I. right where do I fit in I'm I'm sort of. my ego sense is dissolving a bit from. LSD I'm connected to something bigger. and larger than myself right I thought. this is the the courage the test of. courage this is the test of manhood. This is something that is a part of a. right of passage. So for me, the. psychedelics became the right of passage. when the religious right of passage. didn't have the same impact as I had.

hoped it would. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. It's interesting too. that you talk about not restricting it. for young people and I just I thought. about like wine in Europe because kids. in Europe, particularly kids in Italy, they don't have the drinking problem. that kids have in America. When high. school kids in America get a hold of. alcohol, they get drunk and ridiculous. and like cuz they're doing something. naughty. Yeah. But kids are normalized. to the just regular consumption of glass.

of wine with dinner. It's normal. Well, and then in the US where when kids do. experiment because they're worried about. being caught with things, they tend to. not use wine, but they tend to use. stronger drinks, right? So they they. call that sort of the iron law of. prohibition that when you prohibit. something, it moves more and more to. more concentrated, more powerful forms. of that drug, hence fentanyl. Yeah. Yeah. Or even cocaine when if you could. have cocaine. I mean, Andy While has uh.

been promoting for decades and decades. this idea of cocaine. Yeah, I had that. once. What was the shut the [ __ ] up? I. couldn't shut up. I was like, "Oh my. god, thank God I've never done cocaine.". I was telling my friend Doug, I was. like, "I don't think I could shut up.". But it wasn't anything crazy. Um I think. that um chewing the leaves is supposed. to be like super beneficial and actually. even healthier than coffee. Yeah, there. there's a lot of um nutrition in the.

leaves. Does it help suck your teeth up. though? Well, if you do anything too. much, it can. But it's something. You. sound like an apologist. You sound like. Well, well, I think it's this idea that. um appropriate use. Well, Paracelis is. the uh um one of the early physicians. and he said the difference between a. medicine and a poison is dose, right? Well, yeah, salt will kill you. You. know, eat a pound of salt, see what. happens. Water will kill you. Yeah. I. mean, people drink too much water. Yeah.

Yeah. Hyponitriia, you dilute your I. remember a lady died because she was. trying to win a PlayStation for a kid in. a morning radio show. She was trying to. drink the most water. Crazy. Yeah. Like. no. Who knew? I guess no one knew then, but people are pretty aware now because. of frat parties like you know hazing. They've had kids do that. Yeah. That's. one of the things that nuts die from. water has been happening in terms of the. raves and ecstasy use. So that. occasionally people will overheat and.

die from MDMA where you dance all night, you don't drink adequate fluid and you. can get hyperothermia and there are some. cases. So that's one of the the dangers. of ecstasy use outside of therapeutic. context. And so people have heard, okay, now I need to drink fluids in order to. not overheat. And there have been cases. of people that have died from drinking. too much water. Well, I can counter that. because there's a bunch of people that. have died from too much exercise. There's something called rabdtonomiosis. that people get when you over exercise. where you literally your protein starts.

breaking down, your kidneys can't. process it. You start peeing brown and. it can be totally deadly. You can push. yourself too hard and die from exercise. too. Yeah. How many people every year. die of rabdo? Google that cuz I know. it's it's very common in the CrossFit. world because people are competitive. with exercise which is not necessarily. the great like a lot of people I know. that are trainers do not like the. concept of CrossFit because it's doing. exercises that are just supposed to. strengthen your body and condition your.

body but doing them in a competition. setting where it's like unlimited amount. of repetitions as many as you can get in. you know x amount of time or you know. and then they have these games where. people play where they might not be. conditioned enough to sustain the. workload that they're putting forth and. then they get rabdo and it's fairly. common like I know multiple people that. have had rabdo. Wow. Yeah. How many. people die? So it's it doesn't say that. but it says there's 26,000 cases. reported annually and about 5% of those. lead to mortality. 5 to 20%. That's a.

lot. It's a lot of people that that's. probably more than people drink water. and die. I guarantee that's more. I bet drinking. water so much water you die is probably. fairly rare, but I think that Rabdo. stuff is super dangerous. Yeah, you're. reminding me of something funny. Um, David Nut was the um drug policy adviser. for the British government and he did a. ranking of the dangers of all these. different drugs. And what he found was. that the the psychedelics were at the.

very low end of the dangers. And so he. talked about how horseback riding was. more dangerous than uh ecstasy. Oh yeah, it's super dangerous, man. People fall. and break things all the time. Yeah. And. so he got fired for that because for. because he was telling the truth. He was. making people love horseback riding in. England. Oh, that's crazy. So what Maps. did is that we um he got fired for. telling the truth. Well, he was the drug. policy adviser saying things that people. did not want to hear. Maybe he should.

have like got his job description down. before he started yapping. Like what am. I trying to do here for real? Like are. we really you really want to know my. opinion or do I have an an angle that. I'm supposed to be headed towards? Can. you guide me? Yeah. So we did something. similar. We looked at um cheerleading. Oh yeah. And we looked at the emergency. room visits on a per um person visit for. the the percentage of people that do. cheerleading that go to the emergency. room versus the percentage of people. that do ecstasy. And cheerleading is.

more dangerous. Oh, yeah. They fly. through the air, man. Yeah. Yeah. They. bang heads sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So, we. had a a poster that we made. It said, "Uh, give me an E." Oh, god. That's so. silly. But here's the thing. It's like. we allow multiple dangerous things. Like. horseback riding is one thing. How about. bull riding? Totally legal. Super. dangerous. Like super duper dangerous. I. mean, we allow BMX riding. You should of.

course allow that. Look, I'm a martial. artist. Like, I know how many people. have been who have accidentally died. doing martial arts. A ton. It's real. You know, there's a ton of activities. that people enjoy. Skydiving. They enjoy. bungee jumping. Legal. All legal. Amusement parks legal. Yeah. Well, I. think that in those circumstances, people believe that there's benefits. that outweigh the risk. amusement parks. that well people enjoy them. Oh, people. enjoy psyched dogs. Yeah. But I think.

that's the the critical issue is that. people have got as you started out by. saying, you know, people think that if. you take these drugs, there's no. benefits. You're hallucinating. You're. running away from reality. You're not. paying attention to what's really going. on. You're making yourself more. vulnerable. You're going to fly out a. window and think you can fly. Well, it's. just like we need a a comprehensive. addressing of the the actual real. landscape of what these things are, what. the benefits are, and just this. addressing of the impact of propaganda,

the the sweeping schedule one act of. 1970, right? Um the the whole William. Randph Hurst connection to marijuana. illegalization, which was right after. alcohol prohibition. So they were. looking to put these agents back out. into the field. All that needs to be. like comprehensively explained to the. American public to reinform people. because I think people are they're. they're they have the general population. that doesn't listen to podcasts like. this and doesn't get online and s these.

things. You have these conceptions that. are entirely formed by propaganda and. they're they're not based on on real. anecdotal experiences, real science, real data. And the re and also the the. problem with that too is there's real. side effects of some of these things. Those need to be understood. How do you. understand them? Well, you have to make. them legal and do tests and studies and. maybe people have gene expressions that, you know, maybe they shouldn't be doing. this thing, but they can do that thing, you know. Yeah. I think this idea that.

um for me how do we break through the. wall of propaganda right and for me the. idea has been we go to where the. suffering is we go to where the science. is and we try to make things first into. medicines and I think that's where. people are willing to listen when you. have all this propaganda and all these. fears it has to be that there's some. corresponding benefit that's overwhelms. your your sense of fear that that you're. willing to take a look and that's where. you go to where the suffering is and. that's where with post-traumatic stress. disorder. Yes. I think one of the things.

that we've been able to do remarkably is. with psychedelics, they're one of the. few things that are out of the culture. wars these days. There's bipartisan. support for psychedelic research and. it's because we went to where a lot of. the suffering was sympathetic patients. Um most of the people in our studies are. are women survivors of sexual abuse. Most of the people with PTSD are women, but most of the media attention goes to. the veterans and people put veterans on.

a pedestal. And if so many of them, you. know, there's different estimates, but. it's, you know, 18 22 or more per day. commit suicide and you can end up um. avoiding a lot of that by helping them. process the the traumas that they. experience. And again, it's like we were. talking about before. It's the bridge. Yeah. That's the real bridge. The bridge. is these, you know, hard-nosed. right-wing guys who have these. experiences, become better parents, become better friends, just like. reintegrate into society, make peace.

with the past. It's it's totally. possible. And that these tools are being. so underutilized to so many vulnerable. and needy people. So many people just. [ __ ] need some help. Yeah. One of the. speakers at the psychedelic science. conference is Sharief Elnah, who was the. under secretary of the VA. Wow. and he's. uh become very uh passionate about what. he's seen from those people that have. done um the veterans that have done. MDMMA assisted therapy inside the. Veterans Administration. But it took.

MAPS 25 years starting in um 1995. We're. offering money to the VA to do MDMMA. research until 2021 when the first. veteran received MDMA inside the VA from. VA therapists. Wow. So talk about. frustration. Think about the number of. people that have committed suicide from. when we started offering to the VA to do. it. But it was the propaganda. It was. the stigma that made it so that they. were not willing to do it. What's most. amazing today is that Congress gave $10.

million to the Department of Defense for. MDMA assisted therapy research in active. duty soldiers. Oh wow. So there's a $4.9. million grant that went to Dr. Aaron. Wolf Gang at Walter Reed and it's going. to be giving MDMA assisted therapy. There's another $4.9 million grant that. went to a group called um Strongstar. that's in San Antonio here in Texas. elsewhere and they're connected with. Emory University and so they're going to. combine MDMA with a therapy called.

prolonged exposure where you talk about. the trauma over and over but that's very. ret-raumatizing. There was a study that. the Veterans Administration did that. took him about six years. It was 916. veterans and it compared two therapies. that they use, both non-drug therapies. for treating PTSD. One was called. prolonged exposure. The other was. cognitive processing therapy. And what. they showed is that around half the. people are in the study drop out because.

the therapy itself is retraumatizing. Oh. god. Because you're just forced to go. over the trauma, over the trauma over. and over. And that's supposed to. desensitize you. And if you can stay in. it, it can be helpful. but it. retraumatizes so many people. So what. we've shown is working with the MDMA. with the veterans is that they're able. to process the trauma that the the fear. reduction from the MDMMA reducing. activity in the amydala the the fear. processing part of our brain that you.

can once you can approach these things. that have felt like will tear you apart. that that they'll be overwhelming you. can't really go away from them but they. never really leave either that then you. can process it. So this uh study that. will be done here in Texas with active. duty soldiers again is going to be a. combination of MDMA with prolonged. exposure. The Walter Reed study is um. combining MDMA with what they call. acceptance and commitment therapy. different kind of approaches. Um how do.

they decide which approach? Well, this is going to be research. trying to different different kinds. going to be do multiple ones and just. see what's the most effective. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that um MAPS has. started uh funding studies combining. MDMA with cognitive uh processing. therapy as well. But the one that I. think is the most u potentially the most. valuable is called cognitive behavioral. conjoin therapy. Conjoin means couples.

or diads. And so what happens is the. designated patient, the veteran with. PTSD is where the attention is focused. But when they have PTSD, it affects. their families. that affects their. partners. And so, cognitive behavioral. conjoin therapy was developed by this. woman, Candace Monson, at the Boston VA. And that's where they bring in the. partner as well as the veteran and they. both get therapy. And so, back in 2014. when finally um I was working with. Richard Rockefeller and his cousin,

Senator J. Rockefeller who was on the. Senate Veterans Affairs Committee and. they finally convinced the FDA, I mean. the VA to be willing to let MAPS support. research with MDMA. They said that they. would not let it uh they wouldn't refer. veterans. They couldn't do it inside the. VA. We had to pay for it. But that the. first thing they wanted us to do was. combine MDMA with cognitive behavioral. conjoint therapy where both people now. get MDMA. And the results were better. than anything they've ever got before in. studying this therapy, both in reduction. of PTSD, but also in strength of the.

relationship. Do they combine it with. 5HTP or anything like that to sort of. bring back your levels? Um, the answer. is no. Um, people do use 5HTP and it can. be helpful. But can you explain what. that does? Yeah. So 5HTP is your. precursor for serotonin. So when we. started research with the FDA, this was. now 1992, the very first time that they. permitted MDMA research was uh 1992. And.

as I said, MDMA had been used as a. therapy drug since the the middle '7s. through the the 80s, criminalized in '. 85. And people have felt that sometimes, and I think it's it's very much the case. that you're tired after MDMA, that. people talk about a serotonin depletion, right? And so when you take. 5HTP that can uh be helpful but when we. started with the FDA they said all this. information that you've got from before. from underground use or from before when.

it was still legal doesn't matter to us. really everything has to be done under. direct supervision of FDA approved. studies and they said don't assume that. you're going to have problems and you're. going to use MDMA plus 5HTP or something. just start with the MDMA see what. problems you get and then then you can. start. So the way we think the way we. think about uh MDMMA therapy is that. it's really not a one-day thing, it's a. two-day in the sense that the second day. is for rest. It's for having no.

obligations, no appointments, and the. therapists come back and do more. integrative therapy the next day. And. also we do the therapy during the day. It starts at 10:00 in the morning. It's. an 8 hour session. So often people can. get sleep that night. And we don't see. more low mood or more tiredness in the. people that get MDMA than in the people. that got therapy without MDMA. So we. were never um felt that the need to. introduce 5HTP. We didn't have evidence.

of symptoms that required this. But I. think it's because. we talk about it as a two-day. experience. The the other part is that. when people um take MDMA at raves or. parties and things like that, often. they're drinking, they do it at night, they don't get full sleep, the next day. they don't just take the day off. Often. they go into activities, right? And. exhausted. And they're exhausted. Yeah. And so I think that this concept that. we've developed is this really thinking. about it as a two-day experience where.

there is this um low energy and there is. but it's can be productive in terms of. trying to work on the issues that came. up during the MDMA experience or the. PTSD or depression or whatever it is. that brought now there's a um a project. at a place called Sunstone which is a. therapy center outside in Rockville. Maryland and they've worked with cancer. patients. who are anxious about dying and they. have brought in their partners to the. therapy and both of them get MDMA as.

well. So these are all under FDA. approved studies and they found that. that was tremendously effective as well. because when your partner has got a. life-threatening illness it doesn't just. affect them it it affects you as well. and often the therapy is focused again. on the designated patient. So this kind. of broadening the sense of who it is. that is going to be treated and bringing. in people's partners I think is going to. be very important. Um one of the works. um Marcus and Amber Capone who've done.

work with vets they've brought um. probably by now about a thousand. veterans down to Mexico for Ibagane and. they have also started bringing their. partners as well. they realize that you. you need to think about this as a family. setting and to try to treat the entire. family context. Um this raises another. um issue which is to talk about group. therapy. So the scale of the trauma in. America there's 13 million PTSD.

patients. This is the estimate by the. Veterans Administration. You know in. Ukraine we've got an entire country. Uh. when I was there, practically every. family knows someone or has someone that. has been injured or or or killed. And so. you've got massive. populationbased trauma. And to think. about treating people as individuals is. really important, but it's going to be. hard to scale because of the limited. number of therapists and psychiatrists. and the cost of doing that. So the FDA.

has wanted all the research with LSD, psilocybin, um, MDMA, 5 MODMT to start. on an individual basis, but there's new. studies now that are going to be working. on group therapy. So one of the first in. America was at the Portland, Oregon. VA, and it was four therapists for six. veterans. Um, and it started out where. each one got an individual session first. and then they got a group session. And. there's two basic kinds of um trauma in.

the military. One is war related or. accident training related and the other. is what they call military sexual. trauma. There's a lot of sexual abuse by. veterans or by military active duty. people of other people in the in the. military. And they call that military. sexual trauma. And so what they've. learned is they have to separate those. groups when they do the group therapy. because if you're a military person. who's been abused by other people in the. military that that you might not feel. safe if you're in a context of group.

therapy. So they've done separate the. groups but they found that the the. groups do terrific with supporting each. other afterwards in this integration. process. M and so what they've done is. they've realized though that the design. they had initially was an individual. session and then a group session and. after they did two cohorts of the six. they realized that the the people felt. they needed a third MDMA session and. they wanted that also as a group not as. an individual. M um there's a project um.

in Australia that's going to be climate. related PTSD from floods that they've. had related to climate and so they're. going to be doing group therapy there. and there's an incredible project that's. developing in Israel that's um for. people traumatized on October 7th and. there's going to be um groups of seven. with uh two therapists, two assistants. but the Ministry of Health has taken a. while to um review this application.

It's funded by um charitable donations. Um the MDMA is coming from Canada. But. what the Ministry of Health in Israel. has wanted is and this is the first. study ever where it's going to be direct. comparison of individual therapy versus. group therapy. So everybody is ready to. have one or the other. You get. randomized to either individual or group. and it will be a direct comparison. And. so I I think like when we think about AA. and we think about peer support,

um I think you can go deeper when it's. individual therapy because you have more. focus. You're not thinking about other. people. You can go deeper, but when. you're in a group setting, you can kind. of bond with the other people. You can. kind of um hear their other stories, but. then you can support each other in this. integration process. So I think at the. end of it it could be that the groups do. just as well as the individuals and then. that will dramatically reduce the cost. of the treatment and help it scale. So.

that's where we're at this initial thing. and I think particularly for military. people that are traumatized in similar. circumstances that are bonded in groups. that group therapy can maybe even be the. treatment of choice. But I think the way. the FDA is going to be uh reviewing it. is that there is going to be um studies. with individuals first that will have to. be um gone through the system and. approved and then there will be this. additional research with groups. What. kind of a timeline are we talking about?

Like how long are these studies? Well, uh it's going to be about three years. for the project in Israel. I mean it's. going to be um about 160 people. What. about the projects here? the the project. at the Portland, Oregon VA is going to. be done pretty soon, but it's really. just been um four or five cohorts. It's. it's very small numbers of people, and. so there will need to be more. Um I. think that there's been some efforts to. do um what people call in some ways a. modified version of individual versus.

group is that um they've done some of. this at Sunstone also where there'll be. four people getting psilocybin at the. same time but each in a separate room. each with one therapist but then near. the end of the session they bring them. together and then they talk about what. happened and then they also have the. group integration so it's kind of a. modified so I think in terms of time. frame. Um it's. probably four or five years before FDA. will approve group therapy, maybe.

longer. The the the other issue is that. um the last time that we spoke it was. before the FDA advisory committee and. before the FDA meeting to decide whether. to approve MDMA assisted therapy for. PTSD. And um the advisory committee. recommended against it and the FDA voted. against it. This was August of last. year. And so, um, that was heartbreaking. because I I thought that the data really. did justify, um, approval and it did. demonstrate safety and efficacy. Um, but.

there was enough um, doubts that were. raised. Um, one of the big problems to do. research with psychedelics is how do you. do a double blind study, right? you. know, when you take a a powerful drug, you know you've taken it. And if you. give an inactive placebo, people can. tell the difference. Um, a lot of my dissertation, which I. did in 2001, was how to do a double. blind study with psychedelics,

particularly with MDMA. And I my my. solution which made sense was um to do. therapy with lowd dose MDMA versus. therapy with full dose MDMMA. So. everybody knows they're getting MDMA. They all have the same. expectations and they might not be aware. though which dose you know is it a full. dose is it a lower dose. So the. challenge was to pick the low dose so. that it's high enough to cause a certain.

amount of confusion but not so high that. it has so so much therapeutic potential. that you can't tell the difference. between the groups. So for 16 years from. 2000 to 2016, MAPS did a series of what. are called phase 2 studies to try to. figure out how to do phase 3. And we. looked at therapy with no MDMA, therapy. with 25 milligrams, 30 milligrams, 40, 50, 75, 100, 125, and 150. So sort of. like a dose response. We did all these. different doses. And what we.

discovered, fortunately, after I'd got. my PhD, was that my theory was partially. right and partially wrong. that um you. know a micro dose of of of anything is. not going to be very good as a placebo. because you'll be able to tell. So what. was surprising to us was that the lower. doses 25 30 40 50 milligrams did indeed. um cause a certain amount of confusion. But when you're working with PTSD. patients and you get this activation.

from the drug, but you don't have enough. uh of the fear reduction, it made people. uncomfortable. So, we showed that the. people that got therapy with no MDMA did. better than the people that got therapy. with the low doses of MDMA. They still. got better, but they didn't get as much. benefit. So, the the analogy is you're. taking off in an airplane and there's. all this turbulence at the beginning and. then you get above the clouds and it's. smooth sailing. So, it's it's kind of. like that with with MDMA. But the part. that we discovered that was very.

surprising was we did a study with. veterans, firefighters, and police. officers. And one group got 30. milligrams, one group got 75 milligrams, and one group got 125 milligrams. And in. that particular study, when you it was. about 26 people. Um, when you randomize, it doesn't mean that everything's equal. It just means it's random. So the people. that had 125 milligrams with PTSD had. more depression than the people that had. 75 milligrams. But the 75 milligram dose.

group did better than the 125. Interesting. Just slightly better. So. what it meant was that the dose that's. therapeutically effective was lower than. we thought. Can I stop you for a second? When you said the people that did 125. had more depression. Yeah. Do you mean. before the study? Yes. Yes. Okay. So, so. it was chosen that they would get the. higher dose because they were suffering. more. Well, well, no, again, this is. randomization, right? But you said that. they were had more depression before the. therapy. Well, well, so how did you.

determine that? Well, well, we evaluate. everybody's PTSD symptoms and their. depression symptoms. And so, just by the. randomization, it turned out that those. people that were higher on depression. ended up more of them in the hundreds. randomly. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Cuz when you randomize again, it doesn't. mean that you're making things equal. Right. Right. Right. So it was just a a. chance. Just turned out that way. How. many people were in this group? 26. people were in the entire study. Okay. So it was just dumb luck. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. But it meant to us that this dose. of 75 was indeed more therapeutic than. we anticipated. So there was no real. sweet spot where there was a dose of. MDMA that didn't either make people. uncomfortable and reduce the. effectiveness compared to therapy with. no MDMA or it tipped over into being. very effective. M so when in November. 29th 2016 when the FDA um had what we.

call the end of phase 2 meeting um after. we got approved to go to phase three the. final studies where you need to prove. safety and efficacy um I knew that we. shouldn't do that because of this uh we. shouldn't go directly to phase three the. FDA offers this opportunity that most. pharma companies don't take called. special protocol assessment and you. negot negotiate every aspect of the. phase 3 design with FDA and it can take. for us it took 8 months and so pharma. companies are thinking there's nothing.

unusual what I'm doing my patent life is. expiring but I knew we needed to do that. to discuss how to deal with the double. blind and so we presented this. information to the FDA we said we will. give you blinding if you want with these. lower doses but it's going to make our. job easier to find a difference between. um the full dose and these lower doses. because it's going to compromise the. therapy as compared to therapy with no. MDMA at all. And so we said to the FDA, you tell us what you want. And the FDA. chose therapy with inactive placebo to.

make our job harder. Which made sense to. me. And they said that there's two. things that you can do to reduce. experimental bias because the whole. purpose of the double blind is to sort. of reduce bias that you don't know. what's going on and everybody just. treats everybody the same. They said the. first is this random assignment. What. that means is everybody's similarly. motivated and they will work um and the. therapists don't know necessarily that. so you do this random assignment. But. then the second thing is that you can't.

have the therapist or the patients rate. themselves on how well they've done. compared to baseline. You need. independent raiders that are blind to. the condition that the person that. they're evaluating is in. Okay? So the. raiders don't know did this person get. the placebo? Did this person get the. MDMA? It's um just don't look at their. pupils. Well, the Well, this is afterwards, but but. that's right. And it's done on tele. medicine. It's done on on Zoom, and it's.

an hourlong interview, and it's with. what's called the CAPS, the clinician. administered PTSD scale. And do they. have a series of questions? Yeah. Yeah. It's like an hourong interview about. their symptoms related to what they call. the index trauma, which is the worst. thing that ever happened. You pick this, this is my index trauma, and how do you. respond? So, we had these independent. raiders um and then we had this random. assignment and that's what the FDA said. is how we should do the phase three. studies. M what was problematic for us.

was the people at the FDA that we. negotiated this with in 2017 then left. the FDA and then new more conservative. people came in at the division of. psychiatry and they made they were more. concerned about this what they called. functional unblinding and that became an. issue at the FDA advisory committee. meeting and at the uh FDA when they. reviewed what what whether to approve. MDMA assisted therapy or not. And so the. the pharma company LICOS um did not.

really proactively explain to the. advisory committee how this design was. developed, why FDA chose this design. And so the people in the advisory. committee are often more academics and. they're more focused on this uh double. blind issue, but they're they're not. practical in a sense. So that the FDA. realizes that the double blind fails in. practice a lot. It's it's a theory of. how you want to do things. It's.

something to strive for, but it doesn't. work a lot of the times. Even with. SSRIs, you think that Prozac or various. um drugs that you take that are not. psychedelic, that those are easy to. double blind, but they're not because. when people have sexual side effects, they have other side effects and they. report to their therapist what's going. on, then they can tell from the side. effect profile. So, the double blind. fails in practice a lot. But the FDA is. is saying we can't just only approve.

drugs where the double blind is perfect. There's we have to weigh these different. things. So that was one of the big issues that. the FDA advisory committee objected to. was this functional unblinding. So when. when you asked about the time frame, there was other issues, but where we're. at right now is that there's going to be. negotiations between um LICOS and the. FDA with the new FDA, with the new. people at HHS. And there the there's two.

the proverbial fork in the road. there's. either the FDA will say we um believe. your data enough that you're not going. to need to do another phase three study. They might require what's called a phase. 4 study which is after. approval you gather information about. safety, about durability, different. things. And if that's the case, it's. possible that within six months the FDA. could say yes to approving MDMA assisted. therapy for PTSD. If the FDA says we.

want another phase three study, um that. could delay approval for another three. and a half years or so. So that and. that's just on an individual basis. Wow. So then so talk about frustration. Yeah. I mean we had incredible outcomes. So. the two phase three studies that were. done, the first one was severe. PTSD. And what we showed is that um. twothirds of the people that had severe. PTSD no longer had PTSD after the.

treatment, which was 42 hours of. therapy, three MDMA sessions, one month. apart, 12 90minute non-drug. psychotherapy sessions. Um twothirds no. longer had PTSD that got therapy plus. MDMA. And those people that got therapy. without MDMA, with the inactive placebo, roughly one-third no longer had PTSD. And then another um 20 roughly um 20%. had what's called um clinically.

significant reductions of PTSD symptoms, means that their life has changed. Their. symptoms are not as burdensome, but they. still have PTSD. So they're called. responders. So we had 88% responders, only 12% non-responders. Wow. It it was. it's it's the best treatment. In the. second phase three study, we we. purposely moved it to moderate to severe. PTSD because we didn't want the FDA to. say it's only for severe PTSD. 3/4ers of. the people did have severe PTSD. Um and.

um one quarter had uh moderate PTSD and. it was. 72.6% no longer had PTSD. Almost three. quarters no longer had PTSD at this. two-month follow-up. And what was even. more remarkable and this relates I think. to the concerns that was expressed about. bias and functional and blinding is that. uh 46% of the people that had therapy. with no MDMA also went below the. threshold of having a PTSD diagnosis.

That's better than any of the other. therapies for PTSD. And so what that. demonstrated is that the therapists, even though most of them could tell the. difference between whether somebody had. MDMA or not, that they tried just as. hard as they could to help people. whether they got the MDMA or not. And we. got extraordinary results in the control. group. M and I I think one of the things. that is the explanation is that when you. have an 8-hour therapy session with. music with headphones with more or less.

half the time people are inside having. these different um feelings and the. other half they're talking to the. therapists in no particular order. You're not forced to focus on the the. therapy the way with prolonged exposure. or cognitive processing therapy that. that's what I said was retraumatizing in. the studies that the VA did. Roughly. half the people dropped out. We had very. low dropout rates because people are. encouraged to just we support whatever. is emerging. That's the essence of the. therapeutic approach that has been.

developed to support people when they're. going through MDMA therapy and it's very. similar to what can be done with. psilocybin or LSD or even ibeane that. that you just support whatever is. emerging. You have this sense that. there's a wisdom of the unconscious. We. all know that our body has a certain. wisdom in that it it moves towards. wholeness. We get cuts, it heals. It's. below our level of awareness. So, there's some kind of wisdom to what's. emerging. You could think about it as. this um barrier, this permeable barrier, semi-p permeable barrier between the.

conscious and the unconscious. And it. all happens, we all know at dreams that. that material rises to our awareness at. dreams. And it's like that with. psychedelics. And so, we just support. whatever's emerging. And people can go. to some happy memories or to layers of. trauma, whatever. They're not forced to. just focus on the trauma. So, we have. very low dropout rates, but the people. that got the therapy without MDMA, we're. able to make incredible progress. We. also have what are called fidelity. ratings, which is we videotape all the.

sessions. Um, and then we have raiders. are called adherence raiders and they. look at our people adhering to the. therapeutic method and then that's. called fidelity. We had an over 90%. fidelity, meaning that the therapists. really were doing the same whether it. was placebo or not. So the results were. outstanding in that way and the side. effects were very um low. We we had. nobody commit suicide that received. MDMA. That was one of the concerns. We.

had um one woman tried to kill herself. twice, but she was in the placebo group. And we had another woman such severe. suicidal ideiation, she checked herself. into a hospital not to kill herself. she. was also in the placebo group because. when you help people with terrible. trauma, it's difficult for them and you. know they're they're not able to to. really process. That's why they had. long-term. PTSD. So, we demonstrated remarkable. results and yet the FDA said, "We need.

more data. We need more data." God. Um I I I think it's tragic. It is. tragic, but it's also very hopeful. The. results the results are very hopeful and. you know I'm always hoping that people. come around. Do you ever really consider. though the the burden of responsibility. that lays on your shoulders? Like you. have been at the forefront of this for. decades and I imagine a world where a. guy like you doesn't exist because it's.

really easy for you to not exist. I only. know you. You know what I'm saying? you have been responsible for so much. research and so much pushing for. legislation to be passed and pushing for. people to understand these things and so. much education. I mean, you're a real. hero in this movement. Thank you. Yeah, it's um but it required it must have. been an incredible amount. of resolve that you have to have to keep. this fight going on. It it has been and. I think one of the things that was um.

has kept me going was a dream. We've. talked about dreams a little bit. It was. a dream that I had when I was in my. early 20s. So when I was 18, you know, I. I had um decided to focus my life on. psychedelics. This was after I realized. O LSD is what my bar mitzvah should have. been and I was able to um see these. tools as really hopeful and there was. two parts. One part is sort of this um. working through trauma depression. The. other part is our interconnectedness. I think this the sort of the essence of.

what people talk about the sort of. spiritual aspects of psychedelics or of. meditation or of other things you feel. that we're not just isolated individuals. were connected with all of life and so. at 18 I said it's a crazy world I was a. Vietnam war um draft resistor I was. planning to go to jail I'd studied. Toltoy and Gandhi and non-violent. resistance so my contribution to my. country was going to be to not register. for the draft and go to jail as a.

protest for Vietnam. And then I thought, you know, my dad was and my mom was. saying, you're going to have a criminal. record. You're never going to have a. real job. You're not going to be able to. be a doctor or lawyer. You'll be a. felon. And I thought, okay, well, I'm. not willing to to go to war because of. that, but I can be an underground. psychedelic therapist, and you don't. need a license for that. So, that that. was my plan. So, then this dream. happened in my early 20s. I I should. mention that I was so um I had the real. wrong idea um at 18 is the idea I had.

was the more drugs you take the faster. you evolve. I mean again I'm you know stupid. 18-year-old. So So I I I did a good job. of it and and I just got more. disoriented and very much um ungrounded. Too much horsepower, not enough. traction. That's a great way to say it. Yeah, I was very un ungrounded and and. and I went to the guidance counselor at. college and this was a new college uh in.

Sarasota, Florida and it was a private. school at the time and the guidance. counselor I said I need help with my. dripping and uh it's become more. important to me than my studies and he. said well you know I understand what. you're doing that's really makes sense. to me in some ways we're overdeveloped. intellectually and underdeveloped. emotionally and spiritually and he gave. me this book to read and I loved it and. it was by Stannisov Gra the world's. expert LSD researcher and he was MD/PhD. at John's Hopkins this is now 1972 and.

the research was being shut down you. talked about the controlled substances. act of 1970 and my guidance counselor. had got this book directly from Stan and. um I said could I write a letter to Stan. I want to become a LSD therapist and um. he said sure so I wrote this letter and. Stan was just leaving Hopkins and I'm. this confused 18-year-old and and to my. shock Stan wrote me back. Stan is now, by the way, um almost uh 94 years old. Um and um he.

is um still going around the world uh to. to educate people. But this book was um. the a pivot point in my life reading. this. I said, I I really want to study. psychedelics. So the dream was a few. years later. Um if if people have seen. the the movie 2001 Space Odyssey, um. near the end of it, there's this scene. where the astronaut is in this all-white. room and he's on his deathbed. And so.

the dream was I'm in this all-white room. on this and there's a person on his. deathbed and he's. um looking at me. He said, "Earlier in. my life, I was almost uh killed, but I. was saved. And I knew I was saved for a. purpose, but I didn't know what the. purpose was." He said, "Let me show you. what happened to me." So, this is all in. the dream. So, we go and it's in World. War II and he was a Jewish guy and it. was uh outside of a village and there. was all these thousands of people lined. up with open grave machine gunned by the.

Nazis. Um before the crematoriums and. the concentration camps, they called it. the Holocaust of Bullets. So, this guy. was wounded, buried, uh but wasn't dead. And then it had a. little bit of a Jesus kind of a theme. where he was buried for three days. Somehow I'm seeing all this through his. eyes. And then he wakes up and he's not. dead. He climbs his way through the. bodies and nobody's there. It's the edge. of town. He runs into the woods. He. survives the war with the partisans. And. then I see all this and then we're back.

in the room and he's on his deathbed and. he's looking at me and he says, "Now I. know why I was saved." I'm like, "Oh, tell me why were you saved?" He said, "It's to tell you to study. psychedelics.". Whoa. That I want you to bring back. psychedelics. That if we can all feel. our interconnectedness, it will be. harder to dehumanize others. It'll be. harder to um do this mass murder that. that we need to understand how we're. we're um we're all more similar than. different. And at the um I said in my.

mind again in the dream, I said um I've. already decided to do this. This is sort. of reinforcing it. I will say yes and. you can die in peace. You will have. carried this message. And then he dies. in front of my arms, in front of my. eyes. And then after he's on his he's. dead. And then I'm thinking, what do I. do next? And I walk out the the. room. And now I'm somehow or other on a. stream. I'm sitting down watching the. water go by. And then I notice that. there's this young boy sitting next to. me. And I look at him and I realize I.

know him. In real life at the time, I. had a big LSD stash. And I was worried. about getting busted. And so his father. was a friend of mine and he stored my. LSD staff at his. house. And and when I connected this guy. with this little kid with LSD, then I. woke up. Wow. So that's what's been a. big motivator for me my entire life and. made it so that I don't feel that I've. been. um able to just give up. It's like this.

sort of message from what humanity can. do to each other if we don't really. evolve in our consciousness. Um and so. that that's what's helped me to to. continue. Um I feel this u enormous for. good fortune in that um I was born in. this generational that I had like I won. the generational lottery is a way to say. it. My great-grandparents on my mother's. side were refugees from Russia, came to.

America in 1880, fleeing anti-semitism. My um father's uh father, my grandfather. and grandmother, my my grandfather flew. uh fleed from Poland in 1920 also from. anti-semitism. They arrive at America. and it's the American dream. Um and it. actually for my um my on my mother's. side, it was the classic rags to riches. because they had a rags business. and. they turned it into a paper company. And. so I was born in 1953 after the.

Holocaust, after World War II. And my. parents were just so um supportive. And. my dad was a doctor. Um and I was told, "We want to help you do whatever you. want to do." And I I felt like I was. born at the height of um American power, American exceptionalism. I was white. I. was male. My family was well off. I was. the chosen people. Jewish American. exceptionalism. The only thing I wasn't.

was tall. But I got every other sort of. lottery thing. And I just was raised. that I could make a difference. And so I. had this sort of this um luxury. There's. actually um a Holocaust writer named. Primol Levy who's uh was one of my. father's uh heroes in a way and and he. wrote something very interesting um that. I think has relevance to where we're at. today in um in America. Um and he talked.

about how we tend to think of that the. revolutions for you know start with the. oppressed and that the oppressed throw. off their chains and they end up um. amassing all these people and they try. to work for a better world. He said but. that's not actually what happens. The. revolutions don't begin with the. oppressed because often that's the. purpose of oppression is to make it so. they can't do that. They're so focused. on survival. He said the re revolutions. usually begin with the privileged who.

for one reason or another use their. freedom use their privilege to argue to. work towards a a better life. So what it. means to me is that if you have this. privilege you have the opport obligation. and the opportunity to do things that. other people cannot do. Um it it reminds. me also of the hierarchy of needs. Many. people have heard of Abraham Maslo's. hierarchy of needs and the bottom one is. survival that you have to work on core.

survival. If if you know we've had these. um surveys that say um a vast proportion. of America cannot afford a $500 or. $1,000 unexpected expense. So you're. living at this edge of anxiety, economic. anxiety. You you can't really think. about um many other ways to protest. because you're focused on on survival. So, so I felt that I was born into this. privileged. place and it took multiple generations. from refugees from the American dream to.

and so I felt I've had this. um mission of of this use the privilege. for making it a better world. So I've. not been focused on making money. I've. not been focused on I've been focused on. um bringing these healing and spiritual. potentials of psychedelics back to the. world. And and one of the things that. was so um reassuring to me and I think. that um people who um will come to the. psychedelic conference will see this is.

that once FDA said no to MDMA assisted. therapy that they weren't ready to. approve it that they wanted to see more. data. I was incredibly uh you know. depressed and frustrated and all of. that. But it took me a couple months to. realize that the psychedelic. renaissance, that maps, lyos could. disappear, but that there was so much. going on with research into a whole. range of different psychedelics that the. field was moving forward regardless. that something had been accomplished,

that this psychedelic renaissance was. really moving forward, and that that was. this wave that I think is um. unstoppable, that we're seeing the. healing potentials in so many different. ways with so many different drugs. So, that gave me. this it was kind of reassuring. Yeah. That that even though we were the first. out of the gate and the FDA wasn't. ready, um things are moving forward in a. great way. So well you've got an amazing. perspective considering how much work.

it's been. Um the one of the things that. you said that I think from the. dream is to give people this. understanding of interconnectedness that. we are all connected and without that. feeling war is a normal thing. It's it's. part of if you asked the average person. could you conceive of a time in your. lifetime where there's no war would you. be willing to bet on that? Most people. like no we're unfortunately I wish it. was but unfortunately I think we're. always going to have war.

That's if let's imagine a world where. there was no restrictions on. psychedelics because I'm of the belief. that it's probably responsible for a lot. of religious experiences that we've. documented. Um it's. not it's not an uncommon theme in many. many cultures that you have these. psychedelic experiences and then through. that these great revelations come and.

then through that great change in in the. culture. I mean this is uh Illusinian. mysteries in ancient Greece that Brian. Morescu talks about so well. Yeah. these I without restrictions, if we. didn't have these [ __ ] insane laws, we would have progressed past where we. are now. If we didn't if we had gone. from 1970 to 2025 without those. restrictions in place, who knows what. this culture looks like? Who knows what.

the world looks like? And it's amazing. that one administration, one. presidential administration with one. sweeping act that was essentially put in. place to stop the civil rights movement. and to stop the anti-war movement and to. stop the black rights movement. Like if. they had done that, if that if they had. not done that, if that had not gone. through, we we might be looking at a. completely different world where we have. culturally accelerated evolution that.

mirrors our electronically and. technologically accelerated evolution. I. think that's exactly right. Yeah, I. think this um I'm smiling because um you. you probably know this quote from John. Erlickman who was Nixon's domestic. policy adviser. And this came out at the. end of uh the 1970s. He did an. interview. And he said that the two main. enemies of the Nixon White House were. the civil rights movement and the. hippies, the anti-war movement. And he. said, "We couldn't bust their we. couldn't stop them from protesting, but.

we could criminalize the drugs that they. were using and use that to bust up their. meetings, arrest their leaders." And he. said, "Did we know that we were. exaggerating the risks of these drugs?". Of course we did. Yeah. And I think it's. such a crime. It's a It's really a a. crime of enlightenment. It's really It. really is. It is. And and when you talk. about Brian Mirescu and the immortality. key, which by the way is being made into. a documentary, phenomenal book, it's. incred but the Ellisinian Mysteries is.

the longest running mystery ceremony. that we know of in the history of the. world, roughly 2,000 years. It involved. a psychedelic potion called Kickion. It's not exactly clear what was in it, but it was wiped out in 396 by the. Catholic Church because psychedelics. offer a direct experience of. spirituality and often religious systems. want to be the intermediators. Exactly. They want to be the gatekeepers. And so. power when we think about the.

reintroduction of. psychedelics, you know, we talk about. what happened in the controlled. substance act in 1970, but it really. goes all the way back to the destruction. of the Elocidian mysteries. And then we. have a lot of the work in the middle. ages where the women were mostly the. plant medicine people. And then we have. the burning of the witches when the. concistadors started coming into western. civilization here. Um, which was. indigenous civilizations. The first. people that they tried to kill were the. shamans that did the work with the. mushrooms or the work with the peyote.

because they were the center of the. communities. Now, these communities were. not all, you know, peace and love. They. were often waring and killing each. other. So, there there does need to be a. lot more um conscious evolution, but. there's a well, they were living in a. very different time. Yeah. You know, I. mean, you had a bunch of different. languages, you had tribal raiders. It. was very common. There's, you know, it's. just a different world. They were living. in a much more barbaric state. Yeah. You.

know, there were, but it's it was. essentially a window into prehistory. Yeah. There's a book that I'd um. recommend for people um by Herman Hess, and it's called The Glass Bead Game. Magister Ludy, the glass bead game. And. and it helped Herman Hess win the Nobel. Prize for literature. And he wrote wrote. it during World War II. And so there is. these competitive energies that we have. that often can lead to war. But the book. was a. post-apocalyptic culture that had. decided to harness these um competitive.

energies into what they called the glass. bead game, which was this. It's a. beautiful book, but the glass bead game. was about a. competition using poetry, mathematics, music, and philosophy to try to describe. the universe. and they would have this. different kind of um who would be the. most eloquent and the most. comprehensive. And this was kind of the. um the antidote to the competitiveness.

that led to this apocalypse. Huh. And. and he's writing this during World War. II as well as this sort of idealistic. hopeful thing. But but the the other. part of the book was that this game. itself becomes a little bit too abstract. and it no longer harnesses the passions. of the common people. It became more of. this elite and the head of it the. magister ludy decides that he has to. leave. So that there has to be some way. that we we do compete with each other.

but we have to do it in a way to learn. um non-violence and our tools of. technology are getting ever more. destructive. the nuclear proliferation is taking. more. So I ended my TED talk with this. uh which was 2019 and interestingly. enough it took um six years until um. Nolan Williams gave a a talk on the main. stage at TED about ibeane. So it took. six years from my first that was the. only ever TED talk on um psychedelics in. 2019 and then Nolan Williams talked.

about Ibegan just recently and he'll. also be at the psychedelic conference. But this idea I ended up saying it's a. race between um consciousness and. catastrophe and catastrophe. is very common. I mean as you just. talked about coming back from Ukraine um. today I don't know what's happening. right now but today India and Pakistan. started bombing each other. Yeah. Yeah. Which is terrifying. Two nuclear powers. are sending missiles into each other's.

country. Yeah. um you know what's going. on with Israel and Palestine. I I just. want to mention something. So there are. small groups of Israelis and. Palestinians that are doing Iawaska and. MDMMA together. So that in a way to to. emphasize their common humanity but also. to work through their traumas. And one. of the most um I think. um inspiring and motivating um groups in. Israel and Palestine is a group called. Combatants for Peace.

And so these are Israeli soldiers or. what would be called Palestinian. terrorists or those that had used. violence on both sides and they've given. up violence for nonviolence. So it's a. group called Combatants for Peace and. the Palestinian is uh has been invited. to come speak at Psychedelic Science and. he was denied a visa. Wow. He cannot come to our conference. We're trying to see if we can work. behind the scenes. I don't know if we. can to get him a visa, but that this.

idea that we're um he's just because. he's Palestinian. I I I don't know the. exact reasons why. He did have a violent. past because that is the whole point of. combatants for peace. They they were. combatants. They're. now leading this non-violent approach to. work together. So there there's a a incredible. neuroscientist, Israeli neuroscientist, Leor Roseman at Exit University in. England that's done work with Israelis. and Palestinians and he's brought a.

bunch of them to to Spain for an Iawaska. session and with different measures of. how you see the other and once you do. see this commonality, you you don't see. the other as so foreign from yourself. and you can recognize their pain. Um, and so like a residual effect of tribal. culture from the ancient times that this. you had to other these people in order. to commit horrific crimes because they. were going to commit horrific crimes on. you. You had to protect the people.

around you and and unfortunately that's. baked into our genes. you you you. reminded me of um one of the more um. powerful for me statements um Adam Kiner. who's the Republican on the January 6. committee from the in the House to look. at what happened on January 6th. He said. that he's learned from his. investigations that there's something. that people are more scared of than. death and that's being kicked out of. your tribe. m that we're such social. beings that this idea that we would be.

isolated and alone that that's how you. have a lot of these fundamentalist. religions that um keep people uh within. them because if you deviate you get. kicked out of the tribe and they they. ostracize you. So we're we're so. cultural things that mimic religions in. that way. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have. the fundamentalists of all the. religions. Um I think this is very true. that the fundamentalists of the. different religions are closer to each. other than they are to the mystics of.

their own religions and the mystics of. the religions are closer to the people. who are other religions because they see. that it's all this common reality but. that we have different symbols different. stories that we tell but that but it's. all about this um combination of us. being both interconnected and also um. extremely individual. I think this other. part is that the more you realize how. we're all essentially more similar I. mean look at our DNA is very similar to. um some animal DNA it's it's there's.

very slight differences we we are and. and then when you talk about humans so. different skin color different things. we're our commonalities are really more. but once you can kind of understand that. hopefully then you can um be more. willing to appreciate the differences so. it's this paradoxical. thing where that the more you realize. we're interconnected, the more you can. appreciate the unique individ. individuality of every person. Yeah. I. think what you brought up about um the.

uh suspension of the illusinian. mysteries, the the that just so. important that that that kind of tactic. has always existed because the psychotic. people in power want to maintain their. control over the population and it's. very difficult to do. It's very. difficult to get people to fight each. other when they're all tripping. together. Yeah. And they're like, "Oh, there's something more to this." Like, we're missing out on a giant piece of. this puzzle. And it's like there's these. tools that are available to humanity.

that can elevate us. And yet these tools. are by tyrants are being kept from. people. Not just kept from people, but. as you're talking about with Nixon's. adviser, Yeah. openly discussed how they. lied and used propaganda to pretend that. the effects were far worse than they. really were. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. that uh it's again really important to. say that the tools are um in some ways. less important than the context within.

which they're used. So the social. context so for example um religions. often cozy up to the people in power. So. there's a an Iawaska church, the Unao de. Vegetal, and they came from Brazil. They. actually went to the US Supreme Court. and got approval for practicing Iwasa in. the United States. But they're a syncric. religion, meaning that in order for them. to survive, they had to merge with the. church. So they they've become a. patriarchal, homophobic, hierarchical,

and some of the leaders of the Unaad Dee. Vegetal aligned with Bolsinaro who was. about destroying the Amazon. So that it. doesn't the tools themselves don't. automatically make you a better person. It's the context. So it's the same way. in therapy that you can have these. experiences but it's the context in. which you interpret them and then it's. the integration work that you do after. that really makes the most sense. So. that um you can have psychedelic.

experiences, but if it's not in this um. sort of therapeutic context where you're. really open to to deal with the. different um issues and things, fears of. death, things that come up. So I I think. we need to make that clear that it's not. just it's a magic pill and it will. produce better people. A great example. of that is the Berserkers. Yeah. The. Vikings took mushrooms before they. killed everybody. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. doesn't always make you a better person.

really. And again, context of the. culture in the times, a barbaric time, you know. Yeah. I have we talked about. McKenna's stone tape theory before? Um, no, we haven't. What do you What is your. perspective on that idea? Well, um what. he's basically saying is that. um it's a real good chance that um early. um monkeys and stuff um would experiment. with whatever they could around them to. eat and that they would u eat mushrooms.

and that mushrooms then elevated their. consciousness started helping develop. language. Um I think it's plausible. I. mean, I don't know that we'll know for. sure, but have you heard Dennis describe. it? Dennis, I think, does an even better. job of describing it than Terrence. because Dennis is like a legitimate. hardcore scientist. Yes. And he explains. how psilocybin would interact with the. brain and glossoleia and all these. different effects that could come out of. it. And then that psilocybin is known.

for helping regrow neural tissue. Yes. That's what I talked about this. neuroplasticity and this um yeah that. Golan is talking about these opening. these critical periods. Yes. Because. part of the theory is taking into. consideration the doubling of the human. brain size over a period of two million. years that it's this very extraordinary. development. And uh you know many. biologists called the biggest mystery in. the entire fossil record like what. happened and McKenna's perspective was I. think I know I think I mean it makes.

sense because he had also he applied. what we know about the climate back then. the climate was changing and that these. rainforests were receding into. grasslands which would make a lot more. undulates. Undullet were pooping. everywhere. Mushrooms growing cow poop. Bam bam bam. And you got all these. pieces together. And then the fact that. it would increase visual acuity and low. doses. It make people more or you know. prehuman homminids more amorous. They. make them more likely to mate. Uh make.

them better hunters because it includes. it and improves their vision. Also make. them more creative. So they probably. develop new new ways to hunt and fish. So they would survive more. They'd have. more resources, more food, more protein. They'd grow bigger and stronger. And. then their brains are developing because. they're eating these mushrooms. And I I. think there's a that's plausible. But I. think then what does that mean for us. today is that I do think that the. psychedelic experiences could be part of. this next sort of evolution of humanity.

to make us more um collaborative and. peaceful to deal with the incredible. technologies that we're developing. Yeah. that we um Einstein had this great. quote um he said the splitting of the. atom has changed um everything um except. our mode of thinking and hence we are. drifting towards unparalleled. catastrophe what shall be required if. mankind is to survive is a whole new. mode of thinking and what is that new. mode of thinking is sort of how we're. interconnected it's it's what the.

astronauts have said so I think we. should say that this doesn't depend on. psychedelics the astronauts who've been. up in space looked back and see the. Earth as a whole thing. Well, that's got. to be a psychedelic experience just. seeing Earth from the stars for and. well, not from the stars, but you know, from space looking down and seeing like. this the nonsense of these imaginary. lines that we put on the ground. Yeah. You don't see the borders. You don't see. the religions. You just see that this is. one really unique planet. Yeah. That.

we've all grown up from and it's. produced all this life and we're all. interconnected. But then there's this. thought process that the the conflict. and the evil is important to sort of. strengthen and encourage the good and. that this is all a part of this. evolutionary process that the human race. is going through and that almost the in. the face of this catastrophe is where. real change comes and that we kind of. have to understand that evil and and. terrible behavior is a real thing. and.

what what what are and and have some mad. search for the tools to mitigate these. problems. And so it encourages. encourages people like yourself. It. encourages people to try to figure these. things out using these and again these. tools which are right under our nose. that have been here for thousands of. years. Yeah. I mean people say that the. stars burn brighter because they're. surrounded by darkness. [Music]. Yeah. That's the weird thing about the. human race. It's like it seems like that.

has to be there. You have to get rained. on to appreciate a sunny day. Well, there's an incredible quote from Carl. Jung. So, this Yian psychology and what. he said was that um we need uh to study. um more about humanity. We need to study. how we operate. He said because the only. real danger that exists is man himself. that we are able to deal with all these. things. We we said we we know virtually. nothing about man. we must do more study.

because we are the source of all coming. evil. Yikes. This was in 1959 um about. three years before he died and it's. chilling. We are the source of all. coming evil. Well, also that's in the. shadow of the bomb, right? Like. everybody was still freaking out like. what did we do? You know, we just. annihilated two cities. Yeah. Now to. talk about the shadow something else. So. in Yungian psychology, the shadow is the. parts of ourselves that we disown. You.

know, it's it's our dark sides that we. don't see. And so what Jung said is that. the most political, therapeutic, and. social thing that we can do is to. withdraw the projection of our shadow. onto others. So when you cannot deal with a part of. yourself, you project it out. And so. these people become the enemies. These. people become the evil. And we're the. all good. Mhm. Um it it reminds me. actually um I was with Terrence um this. was my first um DMT experience. So this. is u about 40 years ago. This was at.

Elin at Big Su. It was with Ralph. Matzner, Terrence McKenna and and a. bunch of us were um trying to um gather. together to think how to protect MDMA. And one evening um we all were trying. DMT. So not 5 MO DMT but DMT. And you. smoke it in a pipe. It's like 10 or 15. minutes and um and then you just go out. and then you you come back and share. what happened and then you pass the pipe. to the next person. So it's like a three.

four hour process with this group. And. so for me, my first experience with uh. DMT was very So the first thing I saw. was this horizontal line and then I saw. a vertical line and then it turned red. and then it turned into cubes and then. it turned into like an Mcsher painting. where the space doesn't seem to make. sense anymore and then I was blasted. into this other universe or not but I. was blasted out of myself into the. universe and I felt like I was part of. everything and everything was part of me.

and it was this glorious billions of. years of evolution and And I went. through all of this. But then after all. that, finally I had this idea that if. I'm part of everything and everything. part of me, then Hitler is part of me, too. And it was shattering and but it was. true. I you can't claim to be part of. everything and only take the good parts, right? And it just was a shocker to me. that. this logic brought me to this. And it.

was really really shattering. And it. took me this whole um day to start. working on that. And then the very next. day, and this gets back a little bit to. legalization, the next day um and to. MAPS's political strategy. The next day, um we experimented with. ketamine. All right. So, in my ketamine. experience, somehow or other, I was. above and behind. Hitler because, you know, the the. Holocaust has been this animating uh. idea for me in my my whole life. So, I'm.

above and behind Hitler. Ketamine gives. you a bit of remove, like you're not. quite there. So, I felt that I was safe, but I was watching him give a speech. like uh to these rallies where we have, you know, enormous numbers of Germans. And I was thinking, how do I get into. his head so he doesn't want to murder. everybody? He doesn't want to kill the. Jews, doesn't want to have this war. How. do I get into his head? And I felt this. panic rising. Um, and it was like. bubbles, like I was um underwater and. the and I felt that the bubbles of my.

fear, if they broke the surface, I. wouldn't be able to I'd have to look. away. I couldn't deal with it. And then. I realized that one of the beauties of. ketamine is that it doesn't interfere. with your respiration. You can breathe. So I started breathing deeply which is a. really important way to kind of ground. yourself in difficult experiences of all. kinds psychedelics or not. So I started. really breathing and then I was able to. go back and watch and what I saw was. this Hitler salute and then I saw. everybody doing it back to him and and I.

got this sense because Hitler was able. to help people feel that they were all. together the German nation that they. were all part of something bigger and so. it felt like he's pushing this energy. out with the Hy Hitler slute and then. everybody is pushing it back to him so. it felt like the one to the many and the. many to the on and then it was like. vibrations going up and up and up like. this kind of unity between him and the. people and it just was terrifying and. then I realized that there's no way I.

can get into his head like you're saying. the psychopaths that are often. politicians that there's they're getting. so much out of it but it's the people. giving away their power that I thought. that's where the solution has to be. So. maps is about mass mental health about a. spiritualized humanity. And so that led. to this understanding for me that um. that safety for humanity is not just. giving drugs to the leaders and having. them wake up. You know, it's about.

anchoring mass mental health and that. the people that are giving away their. power getting less from it than the. people that are amassing all this power. So that led to this idea we need to. medicalize. We need to um go um you know. to produce real scientific evidence. about benefits and risks but at the same. time there needs to be drug policy. reform where we need access to people in. a way preventative medicine or if they. don't have a diagnosis. So that it's. this two parallel paths. One is um.

science and medicine. The other is drug. policy reform. And then we talked about. earlier about educating young people. We. need honest drug education. Um, people. have died from taking ecstasy. contaminated with fentanyl. You know, we. we need pure drugs. We need uh pure. support, treatment on demand. But I. think the drug war is so. counterproductive that if we could just. turn a switch, it would be worth it. Yeah. But we need to really anchor and. build kind of a healthier culture and.

healthier people. But it has to be sort. of masses rather than just individuals. Have you read Blitzed by Norman Oer? I. have not. We have it right over there, right? Don't we have it over there? Is. it in the other room? Uh, phenomenal. book on the drug use by the Nazis. Ah, it's all about meth. They were all methd. out of their [ __ ] minds, which is. like the wrong drugs can ruin. everything. Yeah. You know, and that. whole experience of being a part of. something and everyone's on.

amphetamines. Yeah. I mean, what the. [ __ ] They were giving them out to the. soldiers. That's how they got him to go. through Poland in three days. It's a. phenomenal book. Like, but just like. crazy when you think about how history. was changed and a large part of the way. it was accepted was because everybody. was mapped up just on the wrong. I mean, imagine if Hitler was dosing out. everybody with mushrooms, right? They. would have been like, "Hold on." Like, "What? Why are we in Poland? What the.

[ __ ] are we doing? I'm not killing. anybody. What is this? This is crazy. I. got to get out of this country. Like. people just abandoned ship. It's just. the worst drugs are the ones that are. always pushed by the tyrants. And I. think Blitz is a perfect example of. that. The the the Nazi administration, what the the the Nazi government was. doing, giving their soldiers, giving. their the the people in the tanks got. the most meth because they had to be at. the front lines. It's a crazy book, man.

It just makes you think like what does. that look like if no meth is there? Does. this all get worked out way in advance? Does this never happen? Does the. Holocaust never take place? Like what. what was what would it have been like. with no meth? Yeah. And it promotes aggression as. well. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean they went. through Poland in three days with no. sleep. Yeah. Just killing everybody. And. then these French soldiers are all. drinking. They had they they were given. like a liter of wine every day. Wow. And. they they you know so they they're drunk.

and silly and then the methed up Nazis. show up and like what the [ __ ] Well, and you talked about the Berserkers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean Yeah. But that's the. crazy thing is the Berserkers were. taking mushrooms, right? Do we think. Ammonita? And the difference between. Well, did they also take psilocybin. sometimes? Um probably. I'm I'm not. sure. Yeah, I think that was a part of. the Nazi lore, excuse me, the Viking. lore as well. The Viking lore had Did. Vikings take find that out? Would it. just take because ammonita is a weird.

one, right? I remember McKenna saying. something about that he believes that it. differed not just uh seasonally but he. thinks the effects diff differed. genetically and geographically and they. were different in different places. sort. of like you know like a bad example but. all I have like if you grow certain. tobacos in Cuba they make the best. cigars because the soil is like so rich. and you get a cigar from you know it's. grown somewhere in America it's not. going to taste like a cigar that's grown.

in Cuba because there's something going. on with the difference in and I would. imagine there's probably something about. the nutrients in certain soil that would. lead to the ammonita developing these. properties in some places and not in. others. Yeah. Amenita. mascaria. No definitive evidence of. specific mushrooms Vikings regularly. consumed. Though some scholars propose. they may have used mushrooms for. hallucinogenic purposes. Most cited. examples fly argaric agaric mushroom.

aminated mascaria which some believe u. may have been the vadic soma a sacred. drink described in ancient texts. Also. speculation about other hallucinogenic. compounds like psilocybenis. Osilocybin. mushrooms being used. So they might have. as well. The ammonita mascara is the. weird one though, right? Yeah. Um. actually um in Ukraine they they've had. some people have developed ammonita and. taken out some of the more toxins and in. low doses they use it for sleep. Oh wow. Amazing. Also um I've just been in touch.

with some um very well uh politically. connected scientists in India and they. don't think that ammonita is actually. soma. What do they think s? They don't. know. They really Why did they not think. it was Amanita then? Because of the. experiences that they've been able to to. to sort of track the way they describe. it and the way people have described it. uh before. Well, there there's probably. a bunch of undiscovered psychedelics, right? Like from the past at least. It. it very well could be. Well, we don't.

even actually know what was in the um. kick out from the elus. We we think that. it might have something to do with um. arrog and LSD like this article about it. actually from Netflix about the show. Vikings talks about how the Ammonita. might have not actually made them. berserkers and it was something else. doing it. H well it says if anything flyeric would. have made them particularly worthless. warriors since the side effects included. drowsiness, vomiting, muscle spasms and.

numbness in arms and legs. rather it's. more like the berserkers were getting. high off henbane. What is henbane? Henbane is um actually it was used um in. the Middle Ages by a lot of the witches. It's it's very I think it's like um. important herb for Viking and druid. rituals connected to witchcraft. Whoa. Black henade. Yeah. Nightshade. I. thought that was a poison. Um it can be. in doses. Yeah. Interesting.

So the the aminated mascaria one though. I always go back to the sacred mushroom. in the cross because that was what John. Marco Allegro believed was the early. days of Christianity. They were. consuming that. Yeah. But but it's isn't. it a strange one that you don't hear. about people having like these. breakthrough experiences on ammonita? No, you don't. You don't. And and you. saw one of those side effects was. drowsiness. So that sort of relates to. what they've done with low doses of. ammonita for sleep. Yeah. makes sense.

It just I've always been puzzled by that. one because it does appear in so many. shamanic rituals. It appears in the old. depictions of Christmas and Santa Claus. and you know all the Christmas used to. have like little elves and the the. ammonita. I always wonder like was the. ammonita different back then, you know, like what was going on? Like what. happened? Um I don't know how you find that out. I. mean, you can probably do some genetic. um studies to see how long these genes.

that are in Amanita have persisted and. yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, but it's. pretty clear that at least from a lot of. these Indian scholars that that ammonita. is not soma, but they don't know what it. is. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, the. Urgot thing is very interesting, right? Because urgot has similar effects to. LSD. Yeah. And so the uh Illusinian. mysteries they I think it's only right. now it's been confirmed from I think it. was just one or two vessels these. pottery vessels that they found traces.

of Urgot. Yeah. I mean that's. unbelievable the the again this just. illustrates how far advanced our science. has become way over our spiritual and. emotional development. You're able to. look at thousands of year old vessels. and get. microscopic traces of what was in them. Crazy. Yeah. Well, at least it lets you know, okay, now it makes sense that that's how they. figured out democracy. Well, the Greeks are the Yeah. Yeah. the. the home of democracy. I mean, and also.

like just this astounding culture that. emerged and how much of it was connected. to that and then the people in power. were like, "Yeah, we're going to shut. that down. We don't like this aspect of. your you guys are a little too hard to. control, a little too hard to. propagandize.". you don't need the intermediaries and we. want the taxes. We want to tell you what. and so I think when we this gets back to. one of the earlier points you made about. it do I get frustrated which is to.

realize that um this is actually. thousands of years plus of the. suppression of psychedelics and also you. said something earlier how quick a. hundred years goes by. Yeah. So, what if. something takes a couple generations? That's okay. You know, I think one of. the things I I like to say is that if. your goals are something that you can. accomplish in your own lifetime, they're. too small. We need to have like. multi-generational goals. Um I I grew up. um outside of Chicago and there's this.

uh Baja temple. So, the Bahigh religion. is um emerged out of Islam, but it's. more of a universal religion. and this. um and they're suppressed a lot in the u. Islamic countries, but there was this. temple that they built outside of. Chicago, this beautiful temple, but it. took three generations to build it. And. when you're a little kid and thinking. about it, I'm like, how could they even. plan ahead? How could they even have. hope that why would they even start. something that they didn't even know. would ever be finished, right? But that.

now it's one of the most beautiful. temples in the world. And so I think. this process of elevating consciousness. in humanity so we can learn how to live. together and not destroy the planet is. um however long it happens to take. So. if things take longer than I thought, you know, that's a great attitude. Yeah. Well, I think you have to have that. attitude. But you're always so happy. Every time I meet you, you're always. you're always smiling. You're always. happy. Well, you know, I'm not in jail.

There you go. You're not dead. you're. not crippled. Yeah. There's a lot of you. unhealthy. Yeah. And lot of positives. I. think the um you know the hope that we. had that FDA would approve. Well, they. they didn't. So, you know, do you just. give up, right? No. You know, you just. keep on trucking. Keep on trucking. Yeah. Well, thank you for what you do, man. Um I want to add one thing about. the conference. Just say that that um. it's going to be really really fun. It's. going to be if people come to it, 500.

speakers, 500. speakers, thousands, thousands, thousands of people, all sorts of ways. the psychedelic community is going to be. coming together. Do you have a website? We Yeah. Uh. psychedelicscience.org or or maps.org. There's actually going to be a um Look. at that. If you put That's cool. What is. that thing spinning around? A molecule. That's molecule. But if you put Rogan in. uh when you want to um register, there's. a 15% discount. Oh, great. to go to the. conference. We also have this um we have.

10 different stages. We have all. different tracks for different kinds of. interests. We also have this project. called um music is the bridge. And so. this is we have various uh people are. coming up with the music that they would. listen to during a psychedelic. experience. Like Iose IO very much. Yeah. So there's going to be uh. concerts, music, all sorts of things. connected to this uh conference and it's. it's also lots of opportunities for.

networking and for because again for me. what I'm even though MAPS has been. focused on MDMA what it's really about. is the psychedelic renaissance. So I. don't see the psilocybin or the ibeane. or anything as competition. It's we want. the psychedelic therapists of the future. to be cross-trained in all the different. drugs and then to be able to customize. the treatment for each in each person. And that's what we're hoping to to. develop. And one more time, what are the. dates and where is this? Uh it's June.

16th to the 20th. It's coming up next. month and it's in Denver. It's at the. Colorado Convention Center. We have um. That's a big place. Best Oh yeah. Uh. last time uh we did this is 2023. We had. 12,400 people. Whoa. It it was. astonishing. It It was um Yeah. Must. have been the nicest people, too. Oh, it. was so hopeful. And it it was magical. Um so um I think that this would be um. if anybody wants to learn about the. psychedelic community, this is where we.

gather together. This is where How many. feds do you think go to these things? Well, we want them to come. That's the. point is that we want them to come. Well, here's the other point is that we. we work with uh police officers. The. when you think about what job is among. the most traumatizing and it's being a. police or being a um EMT EMT or or being. a a prison guard or these and and. they're trained sort of to suppress. their feelings to not talk about it, right? And so there's so yeah, we want.

the feds to come. The more that they. come, the more that they learn. Um we. have trained um police officers who are. also. therapists that um have even got. permission from their police chiefs to. go through our protocol to get MDMMA as. part of their training. Wow. So really. it's healing for all. That's why I'm. going to Beirut. That's why I just came. from Ukraine. We've got a project in. Somaliand in Africa. Um we want to do. work in Rwanda. So I think that loose is.

going to succeed whether it takes six. months or three and a half years or. whatever. We will eventually FDA will. eventually approve MDMMA assisted. therapy for PTSD. Then they'll approve. psilocybin and other things. And so I'm. sort of going around the world in sort. of high trauma, low resource areas to. try to globalize access. Um, and and I. think that we're in a a perilous time in. America right now, and we could use more. people dealing with their fears, dealing. with their anxiet, withdrawing the. projection of the shadows. You know,

immigrants have actually made America. stronger in a lot of ways. I mean, where. did we all come from? I mean, what is. the story of of your family? Immigrants. Immigrants in the 1920s. From from. where? Italy and Ireland. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is a this is the. real melting pot of the world. And and I. know that there's a lot of prejudice. against immigrants when they first show. up, but now we don't think uh you're not. an American. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It.

Well, I mean, I think the real fear that. people have as cartel members and people. coming across the border and terrorists. coming AC and not having a secure. border, which I think we should have a. secure border, but I also think we. should have path to citizenship, too. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, this is a a. great place and this is the reason why. people are willing to walk across the. river to try to get here with their. children. They they they know that you. can make something out of your life. here. I just think we could do better. with with all the things that you said, all the things you said. And with a guy. like you out there spreading the world,

spreading the word rather, it helps the. world. So, I appreciate you. Yeah. You're doing God's work. We really are. And look how miraculous it was that that. I'm here today with you that you had the. universe works like that. Incredible. Thank you, Duncan. I'm so sorry you had. a uh emergency root canal. Yeah, poor. Duncan. That sucks. He'll be He'll be. back. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Rick. It was awesome. Uh thank you. Go. to maps.org. Yes, that's it. Everything. Thank you everybody. Bye.

[Music]. [Applause]. [Music].