Joe Rogan Experience #2318 - Harold "Sonny" White

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. What's happening? How's it going, Joe? Good. Pleasure to meet you. Yeah. Thank. you for having me here today. I. appreciate it. My pleasure. Well, as. soon as I saw the subject, I was like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what are you doing? Right. Right. Right. Advanced power and. propulsion kind of been a passion of. mine for the last 20 some odd years. I. suppose if I kind of look back through.

the annals of my life, right? I've been. thinking about advanced power and. propulsion ever since I was a teenager. What do you think inspired that? Was it. space missions? Was it Did you look at. it and go, I think we can do better. Like what was it? Well, you know, I I. grew up in Washington DC. Uh and so I. got a chance to spend a lot of time in. the Air and Space Smithsonian. I don't. know if you've ever had a chance to go. to that. Uh but uh growing up in DC, getting a chance to go to the Air and.

Space Smithsonian, I got to see all. these awesome examples of people working. together to try and accomplish amazing. things, right? And and you know, you. might walk into the Air and Space Mason. and you just think about, wow, this is. full of a bunch of stuff, but it's not. just about the stuff, right? It's about. the people that worked together to do. all these amazing things, right? like uh. the Bell X1 rocket. I mean, if you. really want to go back, the Wright. Flyer, right? That's that's something.

where two guys worked together that made. bicycles for a living that decided to go. create something that flew and then in. less than 50, you know, 50 60 years from. when they flew that uh right flyer, right? We're putting human beings on the. the surface of the moon. And so all that. really resonated with me as a kid and I. think tended to make me gravitate. towards a technical field although it. wasn't a straight line right I' I'd like.

to say you know I knew at an early age. what my calling was and what I was going. to do but it I bounced around for a. little bit until I finally got uh on a. path that uh you know I really connected. with and so I think I knew uh very early. on in my journey in university right. when I was going to getting in my degree. um that I wanted to work in advanced. power and propulsion. And so at that. point, everything I did kind of worked. towards how do I get the skills, how do. I get the the math and physics training.

that helps me kind of work in this. domain because I was thinking about the. idea of space warps very early on. Right. It's amazing that you were so. focused so early. What a great head. start. You know, it's a huge advantage. to know what you're really interested in. at such an early age. There there well. there were a few speed bumps along the. way. We we we took a few detours like. like any like any human, right? You're. like I don't know if I want to do this. yet. Right. So yeah. Well, it is pretty. extraordinary if you look at that number. that you said like from Orville Wright. and Wilbur Wright to space travel like. how quick that is. Yeah. I mean and we.

think about in terms of ancient history. how long it took us to get to this point. and that kind of acceleration so rapidly. inside of a lifetime to see just. worldchanging events and the internet. all happening simultaneously. Right. Absol. Absolutely. You know, there's. there's a there's another interesting. story, right? So, my background is I've. got a a PhD in physics. uh and a a masters in mechanical. engineering. So, both a a scientist and. and an engineer. So, I I have, you know, deep appreciation for both disciplines.

Uh but within the discipline of science, right? You know, we just talked about. the right flyer and then going to the. surface of the moon and that's more of a. kind of an engineering story. Um on the. on the topic of science, you know, think. about E= MC². You probably heard that or. saw it on a coffee cup. Um I think I. don't really honestly know what it. means. It's a theory of relativity. It's. theory of relativity. I I could say it. to people like come on man. Right. E=. MCain. What is the theory of relativity? So E=.

MC² right is a an equation that relates. energy to mass. If you were to take some. uh modest piece of mass uh say you've. got some tidbits here. the the mass. that's in this pen right here. If you. take the mass that's in this pen and you. convert it to energy, that equation. helps you understand exactly how much. energy you can potentially release. And. so that equation why it might sound very. humble, right? Oh, E= MC². That's cool, but it had super big implications. And.

and you just talked about how quickly. things move. So, let's talk about that. for just a second. Equals MC^2. Einstein. comes up with this equation, 1911. Somebody will look it up on the internet. and correct me if I'm wrong. uh comes up. with the equation in 1911. Uh they split. the first atom in 1928 1932 time frame. I can't remember the exact time frame. Uh. 1942 we had the first nuclear. reactor underneath a squash court at uh. University of Chicago. They they did.

things very differently in the 1940s. Joe under a squash right. Yeah. Did they. let the people playing squash know? Who. knows? Right. What happened to them? Are. they X-Men now? Right. Exactly. That's a. That's the origin story. That's a. Spider-Man origin story, right? So yeah, that's where Phoenix came from. Yeah. Yeah. Your friends tell you I can I can. uh I think I can hear the color blue. now. Right. So yeah. So anyway, the the. uh had the first nuclear reactor. underneath the squash court in 1942 and. then the Trinity test. That's the atomic.

bomb test in 1945. And so in the span of. just a few decades, we go from acute. coffee cup worthy equation to a paradigm. shift in human existence, right? And. that's without computers in the way we. think of it. That's without machine. learning and without AI. And so as we. continue to move forward, right, we've. got, you know, if you think about. everything we know in physics today, general relativity and quantum mechanics. are kind of the the two bookends of.

everything that we know. uh we're going. to continue to expand our knowledge and. we will come up with new E=mc^2 kind of. equations but now we're equipped with. computers we're equipped with machine. learning AI and so it's going to be. exponential growth right so it'll be. interesting to she to see how quickly we. go from hey I have this new insight. found this funny thing in a lab to wow. it changes everything how we do.

everything uh as a as culture and. community, right? So, so there's several. problems with the current propulsion. systems, right? And the big one is like. biological entities being able to absorb. geforce, right? No matter if you super. hyperengineer something and have it. really crazy, but the things that we're. seeing in the sky, the things that. people describe like Commander David. Fraver when he described that tic tac, that vehicle, that thing, whatever it. was that went from above 50,000 ft to.

sea level in a second and shot off at. insane rate speeds. Biological entities. can't survive that kind of geforce, we. think. Yeah. So I I think in terms of um. uh a human ability to take G's. Yeah. I. should say human, not like tardigrades. could Right. Right. Yeah. So a human. being can Well, trained uh human beings. can take potentially up to to 9 G's. Have you ever done that before? Have you.

ever I have not. Right. I did it once. with the Blue Angels. I got to seven and. a half G's. It was bananas. That's. awesome. I bet that was an experience. Oh my. I am so jealous. Mad respect for. those guys. Mad respect for those guys. First of all, the biggest thing when you. go to that area, like these guys are. jacked. They're in like insane shape. because you're literally forcing blood. into your brain to tolerate the G-force. So they have to hold on to their stick. They're, you know, the joystick and. they're going hoop hoop hoop. They're.

while they're flying going, you know, through the canyons. It's bananas. Like. extraordinary. So imagine. um a person being able to tolerate that. on a regular basis and perform fine. motor skill functions like you know. pointing and aiming and shooting and all. the crazy stuff that those guys are. capable of doing being able to think and. in some cases if they're in combat being. able to make critical decisions you know. in some ways what you're talking about. uh when you look at NASA's astronaut. corps right as part of their regimen.

they have to go up in T38s on a regular. basis uh to try and help uh help train. with the whole how do you make decisions. right when your life is on the line and. the time is finite right so there's a. whole aspect of this that's kind of. geared towards keeping those portions of. the brain uh trained and sharp right. right which is the best argument for AI. taking over. so when um you hear about stories um.

about these fighter pilots finding these. objects in the sky that exhibit. extraordinary capabilities and don't. have all the signatures of traditional. propulsion systems. What is your. thoughts? Uh generally um I tend to be. agnostic to the topic. Um I have a lot. of friends that are extremely interested. in a lot of things that are out and. about uh in the in the media and in the. literature. Um but generally I tend to.

be uh agnostic and here's why. um in in. everything that uh that's that's. currently out uh that people talk about. and highlight uh it's difficult for me. to take uh to take the data and the. evidence and then pull that into the. work that we do in the lab with some of. the the the different test devices we. work with as we kind of explore the. frontiers of where physics and. propulsion might intersect. Um it's hard. to take that and turn that into some.

kind of an action plan if you will. So, I'm certainly aware like David Fraver uh. the experience that he had with I think. he calls them tic tacs, right? Um an. amazing uh account. Um and there's. multiple people that saw it, multiple. platforms that saw it. Um, and so to to. to start with, right, I I thought maybe. there was a small chance that was um. just like we have stealth technology, right, where if you want to hide a. plane, uh what if we had the ability to.

project something, right, through some. mechanism, uh where we could make people. go where we wanted them to go, right? because I know there is um there's a. technology that uses like two different. lasers that triangulate a certain point. in open air and they put enough energy. into a particular location that they. ionize the air and so it creates like a. a bright pixel and so they use that to. create three-dimensional displays that. kind of look like they're just floating. out in air. Now they're not quite as big. as what we saw uh described with the the.

Nimmits encounter on the West Coast. Uh, so I thought for a little while maybe. that might be something that we're. seeing. They can project plasma as well, right? Is that the same thing? It's the. same thing, right? So that the two. lasers intersect, they ionize the air. which creates a plasma. And they can do. this over long distances as well, right? I I don't know about long distances. I. know they can do it over short. distances. And so that to for a while. there, I wondered if that might be. something that that could explain some.

of what makes sense what David Fraver. and and the group saw. The only problem. would be the radar because I don't know. you wouldn't pick up that on radar, would you? Because it's not a mass, right? So the well the plasma would. certainly uh absorb a radar signal, right? Because it's going to it's going. to polarize any electromagnetic wave. that tries to go through. So it would. show up. It might. It might. It might. Um would it be possible to make. something that big that's 20 ft long out. of that? It's hard for me to imagine. that. Um but it so in I think there's.

one piece of data that just came out in. the last few weeks. I think uh David. Fraver's uh wingman Alex I think her. name is Alex Dietrich. I can't remember. the name. I think you're right. Um so. she came out and so in in in all the. things associated with that particular. encounter. Right. One of the things I've. been trying to figure out is what how do. they describe the specular surface of. the tic tac. Right. Right. U because if.

it's the these plasma pixels that I'm. talking about that kind of creates a. volutric display, I would speculate it. might be kind of a a glowy looking. thing. Uh but I think Alex uh in her uh. account uh described as kind of a flat. type of matte. Yeah. So that kind of. that kind of torpedoed my my uh my. working theory. So, um, but again, while. it's amazing and incredible and it's. something that people want to go think. about and go try and collect more data,

it doesn't help me do what I'm doing in. the lab. And so, I think I kind of keep, you know, my my eyes dart every once in. a while over to that particular top. Oh, what's that about? That's interesting, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm honestly. agnostic as well. I bounce back and. forth from being really excited about it. to feel like I'm being duped all the. time. Jamie and I talk about it all the. time. I'm back in Jaime's back in and. Jamie will find something. He's like, I. think I'm back in. I'm looking through. the article about the la the Navy laser. that can do this. I'm trying to figure.

out how big the objects are that they. can make move. But they're definitely. they're designed to to trick heat. seeeking missiles. So they got to be big. enough for that. So they want to Okay. So they make a heat signature. So they. trick the heat s Which makes sense, right? Because they're plasma. Yeah. And. can from tens to hundreds of meters. away. How where you at right now with. UFOs? You in or you're out? Uh there's I'm still in on something, but I don't know what the object is or. what it is. But we've both been in and. out. The consciousness thing. I'm I'm on.

that this week or month. Oh, the one. where they think they can call them in. Not just that you need consciousness to. to use it or talk to it or see it. I. have no idea. Maybe. Um there was some. talk of gravity propulsion systems in um. the 1950s. I believe there was some work. that was being done and there was some. discussion about whether or not it'd be. possible to use nuclear energy to create. some sort of a gravity drive. Mhm. What. is your thoughts on that stuff? Um well. I think in in order to do so I'm going.

to I'm going to use a different parlance. right instead of like obviously I don't. know what I'm talking about. No no. that's okay that's okay. Right. So in in. in terms of some of the the language. that we use in the literature when we. talk about something that would I think. trace to what you mean when you say a. gravity drive right we might use the. parlance space drive right and so uh. conceptually it would be a form of. propulsion that instead of using some. form of onboard propellant in a tank. right it's found some way to couple to. some external field uh whatever it may.

might be uh and can generate some kind. of a propulsive force and so in my And. in order for us to uh ever be able to go. down a path where we're trying to create. uh something like that that might look. like that or smell like that or what. have you, we need to have a deeper. understanding of gravity, right? And so. you know um we you know we just talked. about E= MC² and so I'm going to back up. just a minute. Um if you think about.

everything we know today as a in physics. as a vin diagram uh there are two. circles on this vin diagram and they. they touch at a little tangent point. Uh. one of those circles is quantum. mechanics that helps us understand how. atoms behave, how light moves um and in. the other circle we have the words uh. general relativity. And so that helps us. understand how the cosmos evolves, how. uh stars move and and galaxies move. And. so those two circles touch at a single.

tangent point. Uh they don't overlap. So. what that says is gravity, we don't know. how to connect gravity to quantum. mechanics. We don't understand that. Um. but in terms of all of our daily life, just just that level of physics helps us. every single day, right? the cell phone. is only possible because of quantum. mechanics and GPS is only as accurate as. it is because we use uh general. relativity to correct the atomic clocks. on the the the GPS satellites.

until we develop a better understanding. of how gravity might connect to quantum. mechanics or alternately how quantum. mechanics might connect to uh gravity. Um I don't I don't know that we'll be. able to make meaningful progress, right? And so we need more circles on the vin. diagram. Just those two aren't enough. There are a number of people that would. speculate that um you know uh quantum. mechanics is incomplete, general. relativity is incomplete. Perhaps it's.

even emergent. Uh I think you had pot on. here a few days ago, right? and he. talked about uh a physicist by the name. of Sakarov who talked about the fact I. think he was one of the guys that first. pioneered the thought process maybe. maybe gravity is simply an emergent. phenomena and we'll develop a better. understanding as we as we add more. circles in and around the the quantum. mechanics circle if you will um and so I. think in order for. us to be able to you know come up with a.

widget right you know some widget that. generates a force in in the form of a a. space drive we're going to have to have. more physics than what we currently. have. So we'll have to have more of an. understanding of what gravity actually. is. Yes. And what generates gravity. Yeah. What Yeah. And it's and it's not. just the gravity thing. It's it's. quantum mechanics because quantum. mechanics by itself quantum mechanics is. completely incompatible with with. general relativity, right? And so this. is this is a big issue, right? This is. there are tons of people that spend. their entire life trying to figure out. how to uh how to unravel this mystery.

It's a it's a big conundrum. Well, it's. so fascinating to me because if you were. a scientist in the 1400s and you were. having this discussion with those. people, they would think you're a. wizard. Absolutely. Especially if you. held up something like that grief, I'd. get burned at a stake. Imagine they show. the screen, you know, and I said, "Jamie, pull something up." What are you. doing? What is happening? What is it. that you showeth upon thy thy wall, right? So, so imagine, you know, extrapolating. Imagine going in the. future and seeing what this all this.

stuff is going to look like once we gain. more and more understanding which more. more scientists, more researchers piling. on their discoveries and then ultimately. one day we'll be looking back on 2025. going look at those barbarians like oh. my gosh did you see that show with with. Sunny and Joe where they were talking. about what a bunch of maroons they. didn't even know what gravity was there. oh my gosh yeah it would be like. bloodletting you know it's really kind. of interesting because I bet every. current civilization thinks it's at the. pinnacle and that, you know, we've uh.

this is, you know, everybody else is a. [ __ ] and this is we are a seriously. advanced society. Right. Right. It AG1. has been a longtime partner of the show. and I'm excited to share some big news. The new AG1 NextG formula is here. They. did a bunch of research and improved. their formula to make sure it's the best. it can be. The same single scoop once a. day. Same subtly sweet flavors with. those hints of vanilla and pineapple, but now with upgraded probiotics, vitamins, and minerals for even more.

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a free bottle of AG1 D3, K2, and AG1. welcome kit and five of the upgraded AG1. travel packs with your first. subscription. So, make sure you check. out. drinkagg1.com/joen to get started with. AG1's NextGen and notice the benefits. for yourself. That's. drinkagg.com/joengan. It's interesting, you know, I I I I get. a chance to go do a bunch of discussions.

with uh students all over the globe, right? And talking about uh uh space. exploration, specifically, you know, advanced power and propulsion, right? I. really kind of get into this whole. difference between uh to space and and. through space. And so as part of that. narrative, right, I always spend a. little bit of. time telling them, right, we we live in. a society where everybody likes to. pretend like we got all this stuff. figured out, right? There's there's. nothing left to figure out, right? You. know, we got cell phones and internet.

and airplanes and all different kinds of. stuff. There's there's really nothing. left. And just maintain what we have, right? Well, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And. and so I I I I like to remind them, right, when I talk about, well, let's. talk about that. What do we know? And. then I kind of take them through that. little uh that little thought process of. uh the vin diagram just to say, hey, look, right, these two models are not. compatible that says there there's a. bigger circle, right, that that connects. the dots between all this stuff. And I. highly doubt we'll ever come up with a.

single c, you know, a single step that. goes from just the, you know, the two. circles on the vin diagram to a final. one. some grand unified theory. I I. don't think we'll ever take like one. single step. I think it's going to be a. series of a bunch of different steps by. a bunch of different people over many. generations. And it's like there's so. much stuff to go figure out. Come, you. know, come help us push back against the. darkness. Help us, you know, uh forever. hunting the edge of the map, if you. will, right? And so I think sometimes in. in today's society, we we get lulled.

into this sense of security that we got. it all figured out, right? I mean, we. got AI. It says all kinds of neat neat. helps us out all, you know, all these. different things. And so, we get lulled. into this sense that we've got it all. figured out. And there's just there's so. much mystery out there for us to go. figure out. Also, there's a lot of. people that are full of [ __ ] that are. muddying up the water. So, it's very. difficult to know what is exactly true. at any current moment. I mean, just in. the UAP world, there's a ton of. grifters. There's a ton of people that.

are just putting sensational nonsense. out to just get a bunch of clicks. And. in some ways, I I you know, when again. when I talk to students and I I kind of. give them suggestions and advice and. mentoring, it's like um if you've got. some particular area that you're. interested in and it's highly technical, um you know, go do the work that's. necessary to give yourself the, you. know, the math skills, the engineering. skills, the science, whatever you need. Make sure you're equipped, right? so. that you can whatever is in front of.

you, you can go look at it with a. discerning eye, right? Because like you. said, the the internet's changed the. world for both the better and the worse, right? The signal to noise ratio has. changed a lot. There's a lot of noise uh. out there. And so the the best thing you. can do to try and cope with something. like that is just to make sure you're. trained, right? And you're capable of. being able to discern uh something. that's real versus something that's, you. know, nonsense. So what is real in terms. of at least conceptually what is real um.

about warp drives? You know the uh great question. Um the. when we talk about uh space exploration. right um a lot of times people think of. a like a a Falcon 9 rocket uh Saturn 5. or um a space shuttle. Um, and these are. these are all wonderful examples that. should come to mind, but this this is uh. this is what we need to get to space, right? You got to climb against a.

gravitational well uh if you will and. get into space. But when you when you. get into space and you want to try and. move through space, right, you the. things that you might use to solve that. problem uh in an optimal sense might. look very differently from the idea of. rockets to get you uh to space. And so. through space has a lot of things that. we can bring to bear. But this this gets. into uh I think a a larger framework I'd. like to unpack with you today uh to talk. about this this through space type of. thought process. But since you.

specifically asked about warp, I'm going. to kind of jump forward. Sure. I'm going. to jump forward on the the discussion. thread. Um we don't have to. We can use. it as a teaser. Okay. Well, let's let's. use that as a teaser. Let's let's back. up then. And uh so I I you know I I. provided a um a video that we pulled. together um uh called Go Incredibly. Fast. Uh I did it with a a Swedish. digital artist Eric Orinquist. He's done. a bunch of wonderful videos for NASA um. and a bunch of other friends. But this. this video um kind of encapsulates uh.

the challenge of time and distance in. space. Right? If you want to send human. beings past Mars in the solar system, that sets up a problem statement, right, that changes the nature of the types of. technologies that you might think about. bringing to bear to to solve the. problem. And so this video tells us uh. what's what are some things that we can. do to solve this problem uh spanning. from things that we kind of know to.

things that we kind of don't know in. terms of both physics and engineering. And so this video is kind of a an. emotional encapsulation of a highly. technical story. So let's watch. This. will be a great way to kind of uh tee. off this discussion. The sky calls to us. We do not destroy. ourselves. We are one day venture to the. stars. Carl. [Music]. Sean. As incredible as it may seem,

there will be a time and it may be. closer than you think when we live on. other worlds. The moon, Mars, and in the. space between. And when that day comes, just as always, our children will look. with curiosity across these new. horizons, with a desire to go further. and to explore what lies beyond.

But beyond Mars, the distances between. worlds grow immensely, even within our. own solar system, and become truly vast. in between. stars. If we ever want to reach out. across these distances, we need to learn. how to go fast. Nuclear electric propulsion. Here we go. Yeah. So, this is what we know. Using.

our current knowledge of physics and. engineering, we could build nuclear. locomotives to take humans to all the. worlds in our solar system. But a starship powered with a nuclear. heart aimed for even our closest star. Proximus Centauri would have to harbor. hundreds of generations of people all. living their entire lives aboard before. reaching its. destination 4 and a/4 light years away.

It would take 2 years just to reach the. orbit of Saturn and another 2,000 years. to reach Proxima. Centauri. We need to be able to go. faster fusion. propulsion. We should re-record this. with you doing that for each of the. videos. Knowledge of physics, but with. engineering we have yet to develop. We can imagine a propulsion system with.

the sun for a heart. A fusion engine. that could accelerate a starship up to. 5% of the speed of. light. This ship could cross the orbit. of Saturn in 6. months and reach Proxima Centauri in. just over a century. But if we want to traverse interstellar. distances in less than a human lifetime,

we have to go incredibly. fast. The universe has shown us that. this can be done by altering the scale. of space itself. And we are working to. develop new understandings of physics to. learn how this might be. controlled. If we could construct a. starship with a propulsion system that. decreases space in front of it and. expands space behind it, this ship could.

cross enormous distances effectively. faster than the speed of. light. Such a ship would reach from Mars. to Saturn in just a matter of. minutes. and be able to reach Proxima. Centauri in less than six. [Music].

months. Whoa. From there, there are no limits to. where we could go. Perhaps one day, humanity will look up. at an alien night sky and strain to find. the pale yellow dot that is our sun, our. home, and know for the first time as we. look back on ourselves that we are not.

alone in the. [Music]. universe. This journey starts today. Whoa. First of all, whoever did the. graphics for Yeah. Eric Orquist uh was. the the Swedish digital artist that we. used to develop that uh that video. Um. and so uh Oh, that guy nailed it. Oh my. gosh. Didn't Yeah, we had uh we had a. like a a three swim lane chart, if you. will. That's a very technical version of.

this. We we have a copy of it. We don't. we don't need to bring it up, Jamie. I. can just do it verbally here. Um but it. kind of encapsulates that thought. process of this time distance problem. Um, you know, when we think about space. exploration with humans, we think about. Mars, right? We're trying to, we've sent. human beings to the moon, probably going. to go back to the moon sooner rather. than later, and then eventually we want. to send human beings uh to Mars. Uh, but. what if we wanted to send human beings. to Saturn and we want to get them there.

in 200 days? Um, these are that's a time. frame that's kind of compatible with. what we've thought about for humans to. Mars, 180 to 220 days. If you frame the. question that way, the amount of energy. that's necessary to get humans uh to. Saturn in 200 days is an order of. magnitude more energy than it takes to. get a payload from the surface of the. Earth to low Earth orbit. So all that to. say right that particular problem um.

chemical propulsion can't solve that. problem and so this is this is starting. to kind of frame the discussion um that. this narrative that we've pulled. together when we talk to students all. around the globe the difference between. two space and the difference of through. space. When you talk about through. space, the distances are just so big, right? You have to rethink the problem, especially when you constrain it with uh. how long does it take uh to get there, right? And so um uh this particular.

video encapsulates things that we might. do uh to solve problems like that and. maybe even into another star system. talking about uh things that we know. like the very first part of the video. the vignette was like you said nuclear. electric prop I can't do your voice very. well nuclear electric propulsion right. and so this is a situation where it's. known physics known engineering we've. got a nuclear reactor uh that's. fisioning uranium let's say it's. splitting apart atoms uh and that's the.

source of energy you use that energy to. uh plug into some form of electric. propulsion like you got the neon sign. that's behind you. Imagine uh you could. take one of those tubes and and cut the. end off and allow the the the blue or. green glowy bit to come out the back, right? And so the efficiency of electric. propulsion versus chemical propulsion is. much better. And so that's a way we can.

potentially think of a spacecraft. architecture, nuclear electric. propulsion, a nuclear reactor coupled to. some form of electric propulsion that. allows us to send human beings to Saturn. in 200 days. And technically speaking, that capability, if we didn't invent. anything else beyond that, that would. allow us to send human beings everywhere. in the solar system. That's why that's. extremely important. And now we're. getting into the the passion of what I. fought so fought for uh so hard working. at NASA to try and advocate for this.

understanding of the big difference. between uh these two types of problems. if you will. Um if we you know if we. make up our minds uh to perfect the idea. of nuclear electric propulsion as a. capability I mean that unlocks the whole. solar system right that's just kind of. like the just the tip of the iceberg. And so the video then goes on after we, you know, after we kind of say, you. know, nuclear electric propulsion, uh, can open up a lot of stuff for us, but.

it's still going to take, you remember. how long it said to go to Proxima. Centauri? It was like, you know, 100. years that 2,000 years for the new the. Oh, that's right. So, I mean, I don't. know about you, but that better be one. comfortable window seat, right? That's a. long time to be on a flight, if you. will. Now, that how screwed up are the. people that live, right? Because you're. inbreeding. Yeah. Well, it's Yes. Definitely. It's going to be. generations, right? So either it's going. to be generations. You're going to have. to have babies and like with who? Yeah. Right. How are you going to do that? How. you going to choose? We're going to have. arranged marriages in space. Is that. progress? Right. Right. You know, Right.

force people to carry ch children. Yeah. Or it or they might be frozen like um. was it what's that movie u with the blue. aliens? I can't remember. Right. Imagine. if they're debating a woman's right to. choose while they're in space. Oh my. gosh. You know what I'm saying? Oh my. gosh. Right. It gets weird. Yeah. Yeah. So, we need to keep civilization if you. all commit. But I didn't commit. My. grandparents did. But you're still on. this thing forever. It's like, yeah, my. my great great great great grandparents. committed. Right. This episode is. brought to you by Visible. Now, you.

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is by the time they get there, the human. beings will have created technology that. far exceeds that and probably beat them. to it. Yeah, you kind of see that hinted. in the video too, right? where you got. the you got the slowboat and then you. got the Fusion's the next one that comes. by and the guy's like, you know, waving. as he goes by. Well, for sure you would. be a sucker to get on the first ship. because by the time it gets there, the. new ships will have already been there. for months. Yeah. Yeah. They'll welcome. you when you arrive, right? The. grandchildren of those people will.

welcome you. Yeah. So, the the the. fusion propulsion is kind of the next. step in the story. And so, when we make. that step, we're a little bit into the. unknown, right? We we understand the we. understand the physics, right? The sun. at the center of our solar system works. on fusion. It uh fuses atoms together. instead of splitting them apart to. generate electricity. And so fusion. propulsion is kind of another step in. capability, right? That allows us to do. u maybe do an interstellar mission. that's measured in 100 uh maybe 200.

years. Still kind of long, but that's a. lot more respectable than uh 2,000. years. But um contrary to what the movie. Iron Man might say, uh we don't have. fusion reactors that are gigawatts the. size of this coffee cup. Right. So stick. in your chest. Yeah. Yeah. We got we got. we we got a little work to do uh uh. before we get there. That that comic. book was written probably in the 50s. Right. Right. Um, so when you think. about this kind of progress, this.

ability to generate that amount of power. and to bend gravity and to bend space, what kind of a timeline do you think. we're on for something like that? That's actually one of the most popular. questions I get when I I go talk to to. students, right? Whenever you you you. talk about that that last swim lane in. the video, the idea of a space warp, uh. you know, you can expand and contract. space and that allows us to potentially. go somewhere in in months, whereas we.

were just previously talking about uh. millennia and centuries, right? And so. just to remind uh folks, we just talked. about uh everything that we know of. physics today, quantum mechanics, general relativity, right? We got to add. some more stuff to the vin diagram uh to. develop an understanding. Um, and so my. crystal ball is no better than yours, Joe. I I I I couldn't say specifically. um if when something like that might. happen, but I can say I actually do know.

what we need to be working on right now. Right. And so in that context, right, I. I'm certainly doing the things that that. I think might help make meaningful. progress towards that type of operative. goal at some point in time. But, you. know, I I just don't know how long it. might take. And so, let me let me kind. of give a a an experience uh that I had. um when so I I taught at International. Space University uh over in Strawburg in.

uh France and they have they have a. cathedral there in Strawburg. Absolutely. stunning. Um but the the thing that's. even more interesting about this. structure, it's like 500 feet tall. um. they started building it in 1100 AD and. they didn't finish the cathedral until. 1700 AD. So the the people that built. the basement had no hope of seeing the.

finished product. All they could do was. imagine in their mind's eye what it. might look like. And they but they knew. what they needed to do to kind of make. meaningful progress. And so they did. their work and then they hand the baton. off to the next generation. Maybe. they're putting the floor in and then. another generation does the the. buttresses and so forth. So, uh, from. that standpoint, I think sometimes it's. important to, you know, we talk about. teamwork, right? Teamwork is a great. thing. Um, but teamwork we typically.

think of shouldertoshoulder, right? But. I think there's also value in teamwork. across generations, uh, if you will, right? In in a day and. age where you get impatient if you text. somebody and they don't text you back in. like 30 seconds, I think we've lost an. appreciation for the value of what that. means, right? In terms of working over. stuff longer than what your horizon. might be. I'd love to see the idea of a. space warp, uh, you know, before I I I I. go to the next chapter. Um, but I I.

don't know that that will happen for. sure, but I do know specifically what I. need to be doing. And so from that. standpoint, that's how I kind of that's. how I grapple with that particular. question because what I it's a it's a. wonderful question and I I would love to. be able to tell you a very concise. answer that would fit with what I would. hope it would be, but I don't know for. certain, but I do know what I need to be. doing next. And that gets into maybe we. can unpack that in just a little bit. That gets into the idea of how the idea. of a space warp works and how that. traces back to those two circles on the.

vin diagram. Quantum mechanics in. general talk about that. Yeah. So, uh, maybe what we can do, uh, Jamie, I sent. you, uh, there's a there's a slide. that's got like a a cartoon space warp. with looks like a little, uh, sheet. of a mesh or something like that. I. don't know how to explain. If you could. pull up uh, there is there it is. Yes. Wow. How cool is that? Yes, that's the. one. That's the one. So, we actually did. that graphic on the right for uh, nature. uh, the journal Nature. they were doing.

an article on the 50th anniversary Star. Trek and so they asked us to uh pull. together that graphic. And so this is um. this is a uh an illustration of the idea. of a space warp. Let me give just a. little bit of background. Um you know in. in in physics there is a speed limit. that we have to acknowledge when we talk. about trying to go somewhere really. quickly, right? And so I I like to call. it the 11th commandment of physics. Thou. shalt not exceed the speed of light, right? It's kind of a hard and fast. speed limit. And so if you talk about.

trying to get to another star that's 4. and a/4 light years away, that might or. that should automatically set in your. mind, well shoot, we can't get any can't. get there any quicker than four and a. quarter light years, right? Well, there. is a little bit of hope because there's. a loophole in general relativity that. establishes that hard speed limit. General relativity says we can expand. and contract space at any speed. And we. see evidence for this uh when we look at. the nature of the cosmos, right? Right.

after the big bang uh 14 billion years. ago, um there was something called an. inflationary phase, right? Where if you. were to pick two random points in this. expanding bubble of the early cosmos, you stood on one point and you looked at. another point and figured out how fast. it was moving away from you. it would. move away from you like 10 to the 30th, you know, 10 with 30 zeros times the. speed of light. So, yeah, we're really. really really fast, right? And so, we we.

know from astrophysics and cosmology. that this is possible. And so, um this. idea was uh kind of rattling around in a. physicist's brain called Alubier who. said, "Hey, well, you know, this it's. interesting. Nature can do it on a grand. scale. can we potentially do it uh on a. purposeful in a purposeful way? And so. he published a paper in 1994 that kind. of encapsulated the mathematics. um for this idea. And if you if you take.

his mathematics and you put it into. physical form, it's going to look like. my little cartoon here on the right. And. so you got the the little ring that goes. around the the little surface here. It. looks like a wave. And then there's a. little central portion there. Kind of. looks like a a football, let's say. Uh, and so what happens is that ring that. goes around that little football, that's. what would that's what's necessary to. make the trick work. And so it has to be. filled with something called uh exotic. matter. And so that's an important.

issue, right? The what's exotic matter, right? So it's it's something in general. relativity uh that's also equivalent to. negative mass. And so we all understand. positive mass, right? If your little. brother hits you on the head with. something, that's positive mass hitting. your head, right? Negative mass is not. only zero mass, but it's a negative. value. And so, what does that even mean? And so, um, in the context of general. relativity, if we come up with a model. that requires exotic matter, we have to.

highlight that as a problem because we. don't in general relativity, general. relativity doesn't tell us how to make. that. And so that could potentially be. an obstacle that would prevent something. like this from ever being physically. real. But if we could figure out how to. make it, and I'll actually speak to that. in just a second. If we could make that. and we could create a ring that could. manifest that exotic matter, it would. cause spaceime to respond in such a way. so that it would expand and contract to. allow you to go to Proxima Centauri in 5. and a half months as measured by you on.

board the spacecraft in that football. and as measured by uh folks over in. mission control over in uh Houston. Whoa. Now, this exotic matter, what do. you speculate that would. What would that be? So, exotic matter and this the cool. thing is um these are the equations. So, they'll there'll be a test later, Joe. So, you know, oh, I'm ready. So, um uh.

in Alubier's paper in 1994, right, he he. rightly highlights the fact that uh hey, there's a problem danger Will Robinson. uh this stuff requires exotic matter. That may mean it's uh non-physical. However, he highlights the fact uh hey, we have this other circle over here. called quantum mechanics and there's. something in the context of quantum. mechanics called negative vacuum energy. density. And so, uh that's something. that's connected to the idea of the. kasmir force. We'll we'll unpack that. later. But uh that is something that.

could s serve as a proxy for the idea of. exotic matter and may help us one day. make the idea of a a space warp a. physical real thing. Whoa. So this ability. to to to to go as fast as you're. describing where you could conceivably. make it to other solar systems. This. obviously is a version of it that will.

probably be improved upon, right? So if. this ever does come to fruition, you. could conceivably imagine a time where. you generate even more power, have even. more capability, and you can go. everywhere in the universe, right? Right. Potentially. Yeah. It it it. unlocks uh just about anything. Um I I. you know, if we let's go back a slide. real quick, Jamie, I want to share. something with you. So the next time. you're in an airport, you can do this, right? Okay. Um so if you you know if. you want to try and imagine the idea how. a how a space warp works uh in in theory.

if you will this is now this is just a. thought experiment. So thought. experiments aren't exactly precise but. they do help communicate the idea. Uh so. you know when you go to an airport and. they've got those um those long conveyor. belts if you will I think they call them. travelators and so they help us uh move. quicker between gates. Yeah. By the way, folks, you're supposed to walk on those. things. Right. Exactly. Absolutely. Walk, you lazy bucks.

So, the the you know, if you think about. what happens when you uh make use of one. of these travelers, it's just like you. said, most of us walk, right? So, we're. when we're when we're airport, we're. walking, we're dragging our bag, and we. usually walk about 3 miles an hour. Uh. and then when we get on to the belt, we. keep walking. Now, if you think about. what So, let's say Jaime's sitting at uh. a gate and he's watching watching you. walk by. Uh before you get on get onto. the belt, he sees you walking at 3 m an. hour. When you get onto the belt, all of.

a sudden to Jamie, it looks like you're. going 6 m an hour. So, what's going on. here? Well, think about think about the. belt, right? The length of the belt in. front of you. What's happening to it? It's it's technically it's it's it's. going underneath, right? This is a. metaphor, right? It's it's going. underneath, but the length of belt in. front of you is actually contracting. Right. Right. And so, by the same token, the length of belt behind you, yes, it's. coming. It's a conveyor belt, but it's. expanding behind you. So, the belt is. contracting and expanding in such a way.

that it now seems like to Jamie that. you're you're moving at six miles an. hour. So, the next time you go to an. airport and you get onto one of these. travelers, I want you to put your hand. on the railing and say, "Engage." Ah, well that that's a great comparison. Totally makes sense if you think about. expanding that idea just infinitely with. gravity and just being able to Right. And that video by the way is so cool. Like the way he generated that and looks. exactly like these people describe.

things they're seeing in terms of, you. know, when when people find UAPs that. are particularly unusual, right? that. the the cool thing is if you uh uh pop. forward uh one more. slide, Jamie, there we go. The when you look at. the math and physics associated with. this, right, the um the proper. acceleration alpha on board the. spacecraft is uh formerly zero. So what.

that means when they turn the warp on. and off, it doesn't like splatter the. crew against the bulkhead. You talked. about in the beginning of the show, we. talked about G forces, right? Right. And. so, um, I don't know if El Kubir. specifically was hoping to to, you know, land on that kind of observation, but. the little toy model that he came up. with is got a lot of appealing. characteristics, and that's one of them, right? When you turn the warp on and. off, uh, the proper acceleration alpha. is formally zero. So, it's actually zero. G. So, he stumb he stumbled into a.

really nice, uh, a really nice solution, if you will. Um, if if you don't mind, while we're here, I'd love to maybe. spend just a second to um talk about. life imitating art. There's a there's. some interesting things that uh I think. it's the next slide or two. I keep. going. We'll come back to one another. another time. Um, so this is um it's a. modern rendering done by Mark Raaker, a. a digital artist from the Netherlands.

I've worked with over the years. Um, this is a Star Trek ship concept uh that. was developed by Matthew Jeff in the 60s. for the TV show Star Trek. And so you. might notice there are some qualitative. similarities here uh to this uh this. little structure to the the little gray. cartoon that I just showed you. It's got. the rings on it, right? It's got this. little central structure. U but there. are there actually a couple of fatal. flaws with this concept. Um, but the the.

the thing that's fascinating to me. before we talk about the the things. we're going to fix is Matthew Jeff is. not a physicist. Uh, number one. Number. two, the the math and physics associated. with the idea of a space warp hadn't. been published uh in the 60s when he. came up with this artwork. But look how. close he got, right? For somebody just. just, you know, just following his gut. instinct in terms of pulling something. together. What was his background? Was. did he have some sort of a background in. science? I I couldn't I couldn't say. I. don't know for certain. Um but uh man, he sure did. He nailed it. He Yeah, he.

sure did get close. He got so close. I. love Yeah. So the the the interesting. thing is the the nature of this ship, the fatal flaws that it had has. So we. we did a we did an update of this as. part of like an education outreach. Um. so I I reached out to Mark Raaker and. some folks from CBS Studios and so we we. did an updated version of this uh for a. Star Trek ships of the line calendar. That's cool. Um yeah, and that's the one. that's in the video, right? the ISS. Enterprise. Go back just one more one. slide, Jamie. Um, so the the problem.

with this uh version here is the rings. that go around the spaceship are. entirely too thin. So when you calculate. how much of the exotic matter I just. talked about that you might need to make. this thing do something useful, it's. going to be a very large number that. might be impossible to ever make. Uh, so. that's like fatal flaw number one. And. fatal flaw number two is the bridge of. the spaceship goes way out in front of. where the warp bubble would form uh as a. result of those rings. So the rings. would form like a warp bubble that looks.

like a little capsule. It would actually. cut the bridge off and the bridge would. go floating away and Scotty would be so. fired. That's not good. That'd be a. short sad episode of Star Trek. So hope. they have a parachute. Right. Right. Exactly. So we we work with CBS Studios. Now you go to the next slide. Uh so now. we've got uh you know the rings are much. more athletic. Uh they have more heft to. them. They're thicker, so that reduces. the energy requirements. And then the. spaceship itself is kind of properly. nestled into the the wart bubble. It. just looks cooler. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like all things from the past, they can make a better version today. Right. Right. Right. Right. So this this. exotic material. um do you imagine that this is an. undiscovered element? Do you what do you. what's the theory? Right. Yeah. So ex. and this is where this is the lamentate. the the reason for some of the. lamentation right about general. relativity and quantum mechanics. Um. general relativity just doesn't tell us. how to address it right it just simply.

says you have to highlight it in your. paper before you submit it for peer. review and say this this may cause. problems. Um but quantum mechanics uh. has this stuff called negative vacuum. energy density right and so maybe we can. unpack that. Um so what what is negative. vacuum energy density? So um the le. let's uh let's talk about some of the. implications of quantum mechanics um and. how they're a little different from our. our day-to-day experience at this at the.

you know the macroscopic level right um. empty space in quantum mechanics is. actually not empty so if I if I told you. to think about a vacuum chamber right. and I told you the vacuum chamber is. under vacuum and there's nothing not. nothing in the vacuum chamber right and. that that operative word nothing, right? That you have vacuum pumps that turn on. and pull all the air out. So, there's. nothing in the the vacuum chamber. Uh. quantum mechanics says, uh, wait a. minute, hold on. The idea of empty. space, even though there's this.

classical vacuum, right, that we might. think about, it's not actually empty. There's these fluctuating fields and. forces that are always going on all the. time. So, even though like this is the. this is Plumbrook, na, you know, NASA's. large vacuum chamber uh up in Ohio. Um, and so if you imagine you took that uh. that vacuum chamber and pumped on it so. there was no air on there and then you. might say there's nothing in that vacuum. chamber. Well, quantum mechanics says. that at the microscopic level there are. fluctuating fields and particles all the.

time. And so this sounds very very very. or you know counterintuitive to what we. what we experience in our day-to-day. life, right? You pick up a coffee cup. and you push against a door, right? That's how we think of the world if you. will. quantum mechanics uh deals with. the microscopic realm and things are a. little bit different and so that's kind. of background. Uh so you can there this. peculiar nature that I'm explaining uh. to you um you can actually do an. experiment uh that provides you a.

observational consequence of this. peculiar nature um and it's it's called. the kasmir force. I think I have a slide. in there Jamie. Uh so the kasmir force. uh can be thought of in the following. way. Imagine that you've got two metal. plates uh like you see here in the. graphic. You put them very very close to. one another. That separation distance is. maybe 100 nanometers. So certainly much. smaller than a human hair. Uh very very. small distance. And then you imagine you.

have a a vacuum chamber uh that you put. these two small plates in. Um and then. you turn on the vacuum pumps and you. pull all of the air out. So there's. nothing in there, right? At least that's. the way we would think about it. Um, so. now we're going to conduct a little. thought experiment. We're going to. imagine that Jaime has superhero powers. and he can shrink himself down to being. a a wee tiny little atomic person. And. we're going to ask him to go into the. vacuum chamber. And we're going to ask. him to measure the pressure on the.

outside of the plates. And we're going. to ask him to measure the pressure in. between the two plates. And so we're. going to expect based on the normal way. we exist, he's going to say zero zero on. the outside and he's going to say zero. in between the two plates. But what he's. going to report back is he's going to. say zero pressure on the outside like we. expect, but he's going to say there is a. negative pressure between the two. plates. Well, what the hell is going on? Well, the quantum field is full of.

fluctuating fields and forces. Um, matter is both a particle and a wave. You may have heard that statement at. some point in your life. And so all. these little bits of energy, right? They. have wavelengths associated with them. And so any wavelength that is bigger. than the physical gap of the cavity, uh, it won't be able to manifest between the. cavity. So when we add up all the bits. of energy on the outside, that's our.

zero reference. When we add up all the. bits of energy on the outside and then. we add up all the bits of energy in. between the two plates, there are less. bits of energy because all the bigger. wavelengths are excluded. And so there. is a deficiency of vacuum energy that. manifests between the two plates and. that results in that negative pressure. that wants to pull those two plates. together. That's called the Casemir. force. uh a guy by the name of Casmir. was the guy that derived that back in. 1948, but it took us until the late 90s.

to actually measure this in the lab to. the physics community's satisfaction. And so it's been studied hundreds of. times since uh you know measuring forces. at different uh uh regimes if you will. And there's also something called the. transverse casmir force. So when you try. and when you try and slide those two. plates relative to one another, the. vacuum wants to resist you sliding those. two plates. And so this is a very real.

phenomena and it's a a a wonderful. illustration of the peculiar nature of. reality at the microscopic level. Right? So you know the the theory was worked. out in the the late 40s. The. experimental stuff was started in the. 90s and then there's been a bunch of. work since then. And I think they're. even looking at looking at trying to use. the casmir force in MEMS's devices. Um, but all that what is a MEMS device? Uh, micro electromechanical machines. Some. small gears that you can't see with your.

eyes, but they they they serve different. purposes that people are trying to come. up with for sensors, maybe some things. in your car, some future chips that. might be in your phone or something like. that. uh things that they where they. make uh micromechanical systems that uh. they make them with light because you. can't even uh see those kinds of things. So the quantum vacuum this uh this uh. fluctuating field of uh particles and. forces and so forth is a very real. phenomena. And so this stuff I just.

described to you is uh is the negative. vacuum energy density that Alcubier. highlighted in his paper when he said we. don't know how to make exotic matter in. general relativity. So that circle on. the vin diagram doesn't tell us where to. go but quantum mechanics tells us how to. make negative vacuum energy density in. the in the context of what we see in a. casmir cavity. And so maybe we can you. know some future generation of. scientists will figure out how to do.

something in some way to like if you ask. what's in that in those rings around the. thesis enterprise right you know maybe. it's some deeper understanding of the. nature of the quantum vacuum and and. point in fact and you know I talked to. you about you asked me when when might. this happen and I said um you know I. can't tell you when but I know what I. need to be doing next Right. And so in. my mind, I think some of the the next. big chapters in physics are going to be.

centered around understanding the nature. of the quantum quantum vacuum and the. quantum field. I think there's going to. be a lot of fruit there and that may. provide us the opportunity to add more. circles to the vin diagram or maybe. expand one or what have you and so. forth. So So what kind of experiments. have to be conducted in order to expand. this? like is are you talking about. things that are going to be achieved in. particle colliders like how are they. like what what do you anticipate? Um. that's a that's a good question. Um and.

I'm there so there's a lot of different. approaches people have taken to try and. explore uh the nature of the quantum. vacuum. Um and you could even start to. look at cosmological observations. You. talk about dark energy, right? That's equated to the quantum vacuum at. scale and the cosmological scale, if you. will. And I think there's even some. recent u stuff that's come out in the. peer-reviewed literature that the uh. cosmological constant may not be. constant. It may actually be changing.

over time. And so there's some. experimentation has nothing to do with. the idea of a space warp. you know they. you know the people that do work on that. could care less about space warps but. they're trying to understand the nature. of the cosmological constant of the. quantum vacuum at scale so there's a a. domain where some interesting work might. be done I know universities all over the. globe still do work today with studying. the kasmir force they're they make. different types of things different. materials and so forth just to try and. understand how materials respond when. they make these small things and trying.

to understand how the quantum vacuum. works with it but I think there's also. some other other things that we can try, right? And so that goes I think you've. seen some of our work that we've been. doing, right, with some nanoructured. devices. um that we were we've been doing some. work for DARPA for a number of years um. where we were we're actually trying to. work on uh some systems that generate. power. Uh and so in the process of doing. that, we've actually found that our. nanotechnology may actually have some uh.

intersections with the idea of a space. warp. So, um I think when you you're saying. that like our. nanotechnology might be used to create. some sort of a space war. What in what. way? Right. Um Jamie, can you pull up uh. one of those slides close to the uh not. that one? Go back. Keep going back a. little bit more. Uh there's Keep Yeah, keep going up. Uh go right there. Right.

Right there. Um so there's a on the left hand side of. this image there is a scanning electron. microscope image of a nanoructure that. we in this case we 3D printed uh and. then we metallized it uh and so the work. that we were doing for DARPA associated. with that structure uh is focused on. trying to harvest energy from the. quantum field and so we we've we've been. working towards uh trying to generate a.

voltage potential on that little. structure where the pillars in the. middle are at a different voltage from. the walls that are in the uh in the uh. in the the picture there. Um and in the. process of uh doing the analysis to help. us understand. um how thin do we need to make those. rod-like structures you see inside the. cavity gap. Um, when we study how the. quantum field responds to those. structures, we noticed a kind of an. unanticipated intersection with the idea.

of a space warp. Um, if you look at. there's like in the in the in the. picture, there's like a little blue. surface overlaid on top of the center. pillar there. And you've got those two. little regions that are like yellow. I. think Jamie just moved his mouse over. those. Right. So, that's the pillar. And. if you move up, that blue surface uh. shows the quantum fields response. So. the that that negative vacuum energy. density distribution you you hear me. talking about that is a like a section. cut in terms of what that looks like. Uh.

and so we're trying to make sure that. the nature of that distribution uh. allows us to see a voltage difference, right? Which which we do see. But um. that now we can go to the the middle uh. pane here. The the top picture there is. that uh image on the bottom left. And so. you see those little yellow kind of. looks like a lenticular shape. Uh and. then if you look at the picture beneath. that, that is a section cut of a space.

warp. That ring that goes around the. spaceship. So if you look at the. distribution of the exotic matter on the. bottom pane versus the distribution of. negative vacuum energy density in the. top, they're qualitatively very similar. to one another. So we as part of an. extra credit, right? We're we're still, you know, DARPA doesn't care about the. idea of a space war to be clear. They. they don't they don't care about that. But this as scientists, you know, we. were interested and wow, we didn't. expect to see this. This is this is.

interesting. And so we took that insight. and we said, all right, the the the. distribution that's on the left around. that center pillar, it's prismatic, right? It's it's a straight up and down. kind of distribution. and it's not a. ring, which is what we might think about. when we think about a space warp. So, we. said, "All right, well, let's do a let's. do a slightly different model. Let's. make a sphere inside a cylinder and then. let's study how the quantum field.

responds to that structure." And so, the. energy density distribution to that, the. little green items there in the cartoon, the energy density distribution for that. properly matches the requirements for. the idea of a space warp. And so we we. published a paper. Yeah. This is. significant, right? Because be before we. did that, the only thing we could talk. about in the literature was just the. math, right? If somebody said, "Well, what might you build to make something. like that?" You know, all we could do is. just shrug our shoulders and go, "Oh,

right." And so this allowed us to go. through and say, "Hey, you know, now we. can propose a real structure, right, that we can we can. potenti. There are 3D printers that. print down to that level. Right? We. could 3D print those structures. Uh. maybe some clever scientist will come up. with a good experiment on how to go. through and maybe study the optical. properties of this and somebody could do. something like that where they could. take our insights that we published in. our paper and then they could go uh 3D.

print some stuff and do some experiments. to show that they can hey we've measured. the the change in optical properties. associated with these little tiny warp. bubbles that we're making on a chip, if. you will. And so maybe that could be. something a future scientist could do. But this is the first time in the. literature that we can actually say as a. community this is a real thing that we. could go make and it's predicted to. manifest a real war bubble. It's not. going to go anywhere. It's not going to. do anything. But still that's. significant as a you know as a measure.

of a paradigm shift in our. understanding. So it's Leonardo da. Vinci's drawing of it. That's a. wonderful metaphor. Definitely could be. something like that, right? Yeah. When. Da Vinci was drawing flying things. Yeah. Well, it looks like what you would. expect something to look like in Star. Trek that generated a warp drive, right? Doesn't it? Like you could see it. lighting up. Yeah. Has some kind of a. humming noise, right? Makes sounds like. a heartbeat or something, right? So, the.

the idea of using quantum energy is so. fascinating because I don't understand. what that means. I don't understand the. whole idea of subatomic particles. because it seems so fake, seems so crazy. that the universe is made out of things. that are essentially working on magic. They appear and disappear. They're in. two places at the same time. They're. both still and moving. They're in superp. position. They're entangled. Right? it. in in the grand scheme of things, I.

would speculate that uh as we as we add. circles to the physics vin diagram, we. may actually be able to change some of. that narrative. Right? So maybe maybe. some of and so this gets into, you know, now we're getting into like the. philosophical history of physics and. some of the debates that have gone on. for for the better part of a century. Um. but you know may maybe as we continue to. move forward and we add more circles to. the the physics vin diagram uh you know. it'll it'll instead of having this this.

uh this narrative or this framework. where we talk about um probabilities and. chances and entanglement and the cat is. alive and the cat is dead, right? Maybe. there is a a deeper level of. understanding that we have yet to. uncover, right? beyond what we know in. quantum mechanics today. Uh that helps. us understand things at a more. fundamental level. There is a a. subquantum dynamics, right? That. explains the the randomness, the. stochasticity that we see. And there'll. be a much more satisfactory explanation.

for things where it's not like this. I I. I would almost play back some of what. you just said has, if you think about. it, it actually has kind of a bit of a. metaphysical kind of sound to it, if you. will, right? You know, the collapse of. the wave function. Well, what does that. really even mean? Right? So, um maybe as. we continue to move forward and we add. we get deeper understandings, we'll have. uh answers that are much more compelling. and logical in in some in some way we. don't currently understand yet. Well, when you try to explain to people the.

the double slit experiment, try to. explain that to people the waves and. particles like what are you even saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have one. slit, you get a, you know, a nice. Gaussian distribution around a center. point. Then you open up two slits and. you've got this weird interference. pattern, right? It's like and this and. that's the whole matter is both a. particle and a wave, right? That's how. you kind of see that, if you will. But. how do you explain that? And so actually. there are, you know, thought processes. that people have to explain that type of.

stuff in in some of the the stuff that's. out in the literature today. But boom. trajectories is specifically one of the. things. But it what it's I it's almost. frustrating because I know we're going. to crack it one day. You know, it's like. damn, I wish I was born in 2090. You. know what I mean? Like they probably. would already nailed. Not really. I. really like being born right here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love being alive right now. because it's so it's such a fun time. where uh these technological innovations. are they're happen they're compounding. and they're building on each other in. such a very in incredible way that this.

kind of experiment is actually possible. the warp. bubble. right so you know I spent uh 20 years at. NASA and then I left NASA at the end of. 2019 to go uh help stand up a nonprofit. Limitless Space Institute where we did. some of the work that we just showed you. right uh and that's where we were doing. some of the initial work for DARPA on. the the little nano structures that.

we're working on um and so we got we got. a lot further with that work uh than we. thought we were going to and so created. a commercial company uh called Casemir. where we're trying to commercialize our. power generating nanotechnology. And so. in in some ways it's like the the. interesting aspect of this story is in. the process of us trying to pursue this. romantic vision of the idea of a space. warp. we, you know, we may have stumbled. into this uh power generating. nanotechnology that could be useful here. and now in a lot of ways, right? Uh.

ranging from, you know, powering a the. Fitbit on your wrist or tire pressure. monitor system in your car. Um maybe one. day as we continue to grow the. capability, it'll do a lot lot more than. that. But, you know, in the process of. chasing the romantic dream, we've. stumbled across some technology that. might be useful in the here and now, right? And so when you ask what might be. in the rings around that that spaceship, the ISS Enterprise, maybe those could be.

long uh standing descendants from some. of the stuff we're working on uh in the. in the chips that we're making in the. lab today. Essentially like the people. put the foundation for the St. Peter's. Basilica down. They're not going to see. that completed project. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And this is just how. it goes with everything that's really. extraordinary like that. Right. Right. It it it's it's neat to think it's neat. to think the speed at which innovation. occurs, right? You know, um I I think. you've had Elon Musk on this show a few. times and it's neat to see what he's. been able to accomplish uh with with.

SpaceX. I actually I met him in uh. 2003 long this is very the very. beginning of his journey, right? I was. um uh I was on a planning committee for. a conference American Astronomical. Society and we were doing a a a. conference in Houston with a focus on. um a commercial space flight. So this is. at the the dawn of the idea. Uh at the. time I was working at Loheed Martin uh. and so we had Elon Musk come in and talk.

to us about this crazy idea SpaceX that. he had, right? And so, um, Loheed. Martin, uh, corporate contacted me and. asked me, "Hey, we know you're going to. be interfacing with this guy." And so, we want you to write up a profile on him. after the conference and tell us what. you think. And so, I um, you know, I. went to the conference and got a chance. to watch a number of people come in, talk about great ideas, and Elon came. and gave his talk and and so forth. And. after the conference was over, um, I. wrote up a profile and submitted it to.

Loheed Corporate and I said, you know, I. think this guy is going to do everything. he said he's going to do. Uh, I think. Loheed Martin should consider buying his. company at some point in time. Um, and. so fortunately they didn't, right? Because I think if they did, they would. have like ruined the magic, if you will, right? So yeah, you need it in his. control. He's got some pretty bizarre. ideas that uh you know, just watching. them catch that rocket, you're like, "What? That's nuts. That is absolutely. nuts." Right. My brain looks at that and.

goes, "No." Right. It looks like I mean, that's why the cooks on the internet. think it's fake cuz it almost looks. fake. Like, how? It's such a leap above. anything that's ever been done before. Yeah. Could you imagine the design. meeting, right? And I'm sure it was. probably Alain that said that said this. Yeah. I wanna I want to catch a 20s. story building. Yeah. I can see all the. engineers. Is he serious? Right. Exactly. Because everybody thought they. just had to deteriorate and fall to. Earth. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they run.

out of gas, you know, when you're. shooting the rocket up in the sky and. then you you plan it so they fall into. the ocean. Like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I I I. do think that um uh I don't know if. you've ever met Gwen Shotwell. I think. Gwen Shotwell is kind of like his secret. weapon, right? So in and you know uh. Elon Musk strikes me as one of those. guys that's like an an idea generator. All this great stuff's coming out uh at. the speed of light if you will and he's. coming up with all these different ideas. but you got to have somebody who can who. can you know take all that chaos and.

pull out the important tidbits and then. put them into action if you will. And so. I think Gwen is kind of his secret. weapon. She helps take all of that chaos. and then starts to put it into, you. know, actionable steps, if you will, to. help SpaceX make the That's the case. She rules. Oh, yeah. Just imagine as. technology increases, if you have. someone with that sort of an innovative. mind and someone like Gwen can put it. together, as all these new ideas come to fruition,

you could imagine where we're going to. be with this stuff, right? Absolutely. And and and and just to kind of put that. in context, right? In my mind, SpaceX is. an example of mastering the art of. getting to space, right? SpaceX is. conquering that that climbing against. the gravity well as opposed to moving. through space that there's there in lies. a great opportunity to kind of. rehighlight that that that perennial. difference, the challenge between the. two. Right. So, right. Moving through. space. Yeah. And then the idea of some.

sort of a space station somewhere like. not just circling the earth but out in. the cosmos. Mhm. There's there's so many. different ways they can take this stuff. and the idea of eventually colonizing. other planets which is always like. people go okay well that's that's what. we're probably going to try to do. Wouldn't another civilization do that to. us? And that's where you get into the. weird talk. Yeah. Right. Whether or not. it's actually happening. Right. Well, I. guess it gets into the whole, you know,

if somebody has the ability to come. here, right? Um, it's almost like I. would rather be the one that was. technically advanced and able to go. somewhere else rather than have them. come here because that's Oh, yeah. If if. you look at Well, if you look at history. that never that hasn't ever gone well. for the for the for the organization, you know, for the the tribes that get. visited, it just never tends to go well. for them. So, that's why I'm like, I'd. rather be the one doing the visiting. than Exactly. Right. So, and then. imagine the exotic viruses. Oh, yeah. Right. Oh, that's a good point. It. always makes you think, you know, Star.

Trek, they just go, they beam down to. the planets and problems. They have air. there. Yeah. Right. It's just like they. breathe air. Same atmosphere, same. pressures, same gravity. It's like, you. know, I keep waiting for the episode. where somebody starts starts bleeding. from their eyes, right? Explodes the. moment they left. Yeah. The guy with the. red shirt, you know, right away, right? That's guy's guy's gone, right? Yeah. I. mean you have to take a chance but uh. you know when you think of what's. currently available today um in terms of.

research that people have done on. propulsion systems uh when when people. speculate that there's some sort of a. black ops program that the government's. been running secretly and this is what a. lot of these drones are that people are. seeing and this is what a lot of like. the tic tac stuff that it's probably our. stuff which is why it's military bases. Given your understanding of the current. state of science, do you think that's. even possible? Uh yeah. No. Well, it's hard to imagine that being.

possible, right? Just in in terms of. because I my entire professional. experience has been about wrestling with. um you know, how do we how do we conquer. this time distance problem? And so I. know all too well all the shortcomings. I know where we are for the most part. today, where we're lacking, right? And. so I I just I don't know that there is. um uh an organization that has uh things.

that could potentially operate in the. ways that we've like the tic tacs, right? Right. I I don't know that there. is a a black ops that actually has that. capability. Right. What what I'm kind of. asking though is is it even conceivable. that there could be a program where you. could get the brightest minds who are. working on this stuff to make. advancements that are far beyond. anything that conventional wisdom. describes. Yeah. Now, now I'm with you. I was on a different frequency. Thank.

you. Um yeah, you know, if if we had uh. if we had some kind of kit, right, that. uh is not from here, however we got it, right? um and people will spend some. time studying it, you know, maybe they. could figure it out. But that that also. gets into, you know, a a little bit of a. a logic conundrum, right? Because I. think you talked about going back to the. 1400s and holding up an iPhone, right? Uh if you if you handed something like. this to um uh you know, Isaac Newton,

right, he would have no idea no idea. what to make of this, right? So, he. might figure out the interface, right? The Apple's done a good job of making. this thing uh pretty user friendly, but. I mean, how could he even if he looked. at it with like a a glass that allowed. him to see maybe start to make out the. pixels, right? He he doesn't have the. benefit of any of the math and physics. and so forth. So, it's possible, right? But those are the things that in in. gaming situations in my head, what might.

that look like? Well, it's like, wow, this might be really hard to figure that. out, but it'd be awesome if somebody had. figured that out, if that if that was in. the realm of possibility, right? So, speaking for the people that believe. that they have recovered these these. vehicles from somewhere else, um, one of. the things that one of the ways they. describe them that's really kind of. bizarre is they describe them as. donations. I've heard that word. If you. were going to try to get someone to. figure out how to construct their own.

automobile, you wouldn't give them a 2025 Corvette. ZR1. What you would give them is a Model. T. You'd give them some simple. combustion engine, a carburetor that you. could go, okay, like someone who knows. how to make a locomotive, they could. look at that and go, okay, I see what. they're doing. Oh, wow. All right. So. this thing, the combustion and then the. gases spin around and then it creates. energy and then it spins these wheels. Then this thing has different gears and. okay that goes to the back wheels. Okay,

I think we could do this. Mhm. But you. know if you gave them some electric. Tesla, you know, like a new Model S. Plaid, they would go, "What the [ __ ] is. this Porsche 911?" Yeah, exactly. They. would go, "What is this?" Well, especially. electric vehicles, they go, "This is. bananas." Like this thing goes 0 to 60. in 1.9 seconds a car. That's amazing, isn't it? It it does feel if you ever. been in an electric Tesla like the Model. S Plaid, it feels like a spaceship. Like. it feels like you're not in this time. period, right? You're in something in. the future. So if they gave us something.

to back engineer, they would most likely. give us a Model T. Yeah. Actually, that's I had never thought about it that. way. Yeah. Right. You wouldn't just. start with the best [ __ ] we have. You. know what I mean? Like give these. dummies a Jeep from the 50s. Right. You. know what I mean? A Willies, right? Figure it out. Yeah. Look at all the. stuff. You can work on it. Like if you. open up the hood of one of those things, you know, an old Jeep, you go, "Oh, I. see where everything is. Here's the. spark plugs." You know, here's the. distributor cap. I get it. Yeah. Well, I.

I guess, you know, if that were the. case, and I I guess you could I I could. follow you down that thought process, if. you will. Right. So, then could you. imagine I mean, this is just I'm just. asking you because I know you understand. science and you understand engineering. Is it possible that there could have. been some program that's been going on. in complete total secrecy, shielded from. Congress, shielded from the higher. levels of government on the most need to. know basis possible with our our current.

security systems that they could have. some kind of a program that's working on. this stuff. You know, I I I certainly. couldn't rule that out, right? But uh. some things I think about when I think. about that problem. Um, let's talk about. the you like the F-17 stealth fighter, right? Um, there was a a program that. was unclassified, uh, I think it was in the late '7s, maybe the early 80s, uh, called Have. Blue. And so that's when they were first. starting to explore the idea of having.

an aircraft uh that could be extremely. stealthy. And so, um, it was. unclassified for a good amount of time, uh, until they put the first, uh, test. shape, uh, onto a radar stand out in. California in the desert, whatever the. case may be. Um, and then they turned on. the radars and they're like, "Well, something's wrong because we're not. seeing anything, right?" And then a bird. landed on the the prototype. Uh, and. they saw the bird. And so when that. happened, the whole the whole program.

went black, right? And became. classified. Before then it was it was. not classified. Then it was classified, but it it of course came out in the '9s. with Gulf War I, right? I think we we. saw some uh some manifestations of this. And so there is a program that's. extremely uh classified for the obvious. reasons, but it still came out, right? And then I also think about, you know, I. worked at NASA, right? And so you have. the worked at NASA for 20 years, and you. got the full spectrum of of people.

serving different roles in a facility. And so you're always going to have. people that uh you know take out the. garbage and do other different things. like that. And so you know if you've got. something that has uh implications like. that I mean it'd be it's hard it could. happen but that that's the thing I. struggle with is is that's you know. there's a lot of different moving parts. to try and keep that big of a secret. I. mean maybe it could happen right. So. well if I was running things and that. was going on I would talk to you. It's.

like look at this guy and he seems to be. on this pathway that we are uh currently. exploring. I would I'd want to bring. somebody in and well if somebody if. somebody's got a manual right that can. help me figure out to go do something. Give me a call. Right. I'd love that. And I know I'm going to get all kinds of. emails as a result of saying that. Right. So CS I already get that now. Right. You're going to get the cooks. But you know the question I guess I'm. asking is are there even experts in.

physics and engineering that are out. there that could be quarantined that. could be taken away from everyone else. and put on these projects and could they. achieve meaningful results given that. kind of compartmentalized science. Right? Maybe maybe the thing that that. we could we could throw into the sandbox. on this discussion is the Manhattan. project. Maybe there's a better example. of something uh where they were working. on something that was extremely.

important uh for humanity and they were. able to keep a lot of those secrets for. uh quite some time. So yeah, maybe. that's that's how you would have to run. something like that. I guess I don't. know. But would you have the expertise? Is is are there I mean are we aware of. who all of the experts are? Is it. possible that the government could have. had access to brilliant minds that are. on this sort of path like you are you. are gotten them moved them into these.

projects and kept it all hush hush. Does. that even certainly the the so the. government uh the government also has an. organization called the Jason's right. where they have a lot of um uh extremely. smart smart folks from academia uh and. they come in typically I think it's like. a summer assignment if you will and so. they they they band together in the. summer to go work on a series of. problems that folks might have um and so. they kind of it's that what you're. asking me kind of makes me think about. that kind of a mechanism where you have. access to the best and the brightest. across the entire spectrum of of US.

academia and you pull them together and. make them seal team six on whatever. particular problem that you've got. Um. but you could run into a problem where. you know they might uh uh they might. look at a problem and only um look at it. in the context of what we know right you. know quantum mechanics and general. relativity and they don't want to think. about new things that could potentially. be brought to bear. So there could be. some some flies in the ointment with. that thought process, but um that that. in some ways that does kind of exist in. what we know is the Jasons, right? So.

and and they could and they do. classified work all the time. Interesting. Um so the I guess the. question is where are the brightest. minds in this particular area of. innovation? like where if I was running. the government and I wanted someone to. work on some sort of top secret stuff. like this, how would I even find the. people? That's a tough question to answer. because what you know what that you. might that so that so going to taking.

that question and going into like some. specific steps you might take, right? What what disciplines are relevant, right? And that's a difficult question. to answer because there's so much stuff. that we that we don't know. um you. probably would have to sample from a a. number of different disciplines, right? Both in general relativity and quantum. mechanics uh with some hope that maybe. you've got the right sprinkling of. ingredients to bring to bear uh to that. Um and then there there is a history of. I think some folks in academia that. actually like to think about advanced.

power and propulsion that are also just. primarily physicists in a in their. day-to-day uh capacity. Right? you know. how uh put off although he's got a lot. of many in and varied interests he's a. he's a great physicist he's published a. lot of great papers in the literature. just thinking about physics right he's. got some stuff he's looked at called the. polarizable vacuum uh and so you know in. my my my drawer of of preferred papers I. have a number of papers in there that. are from how's work on the polarizable. vacuum because I find that interesting.

and fascinating and so there may be some. things out there that are adjacent to. the concept where you could try and pull. some of that together. I guess that. that's a fascinating thing for you to. say because Hal believes they have them. and he believes that we have 10 of them. Oh yes, I know that. Yeah. Yeah. Which. is just so nuts. And then, you know, he's a little agnostic on the Bob Lazar. story. Mhm. But the Bob Lazar story, which I'm sure you're aware of, is. essentially what we're talking about. like you would bring in some out of the. box thinkers and if you found some.

wildly intelligent young scientist who. put a rocket engine in the back of a. Honda which is what he did you would go. what is that crazy [ __ ] up to like. let's have a look at it what's it hurt. the guys at Rocket Dine say he's a. wizard you know bring him out there or. the guys at wherever he was he wasn't at. Rocket Dine he was at Los Alamos the. guys at Los Alamos said he's a wizard so. let's bring him on here. Let's see. what's going on. Yeah, his his his story. is I'm not too familiar with it. Right.

It's the nuttiest story of all time. And. um he supposedly well they denied that. he ever worked at Los Alamos, but then. they found him on an employee uh log and. uh not only that the he knew the outline. of the place. He knew the security. people. George Knap took him on a tour. of it and he knew everybody. He knew the. people that worked there. He knew how to. get around. Like he clearly worked. there. So that's interesting that they. tried to deny that he ever worked there. And then from there he gets this job.

where he is flown out to the desert to. Area 51 site 4. And this is allegedly. Right. During this time he can't even. tell his wife what he's doing. So his. wife thinks he's going having affairs. He's got to leave and fly away at 11:00. p.m. at night. Like right but you can't. tell me where you're going. You want to. work? Yeah. You're working late again. The wife starts having an affair and. because of his sounds like a movie, right? It does sound like a movie which. is one of the beautiful things about. reality is that reality seems so fake.

that sometimes sometimes actual true. stories are bizarrely fictional. Right. So he uh his wife starts having an. affair because of his clearance. He. cannot be working on these things if he. could be under extreme emotional duress. So they fire him. They tell him he. can't. They don't give him any. explanation. And they don't tell him his. wife's cheating on him. H He starts. taking people out to the desert, explaining to them, you you have to see. what we're working on. They fly this. thing on certain nights and they do. these test flights around the base. It's.

nuts. So he takes these people into this. area. They see it. They get arrested. When he gets arrested, he gets caught. there. He explains what he was doing. He. says, "Okay, I've got to go public or. they're going to kill me." So he goes. public with George Knap. Initially, they. hide his face and then he says, "You. know what? [ __ ] that. Let's just film. me. Let me tell you everything. He goes. over the diagram of this device. Yeah. And he calls it the sport model and it. looks like that. That thing that we have. right there. It's almost like a hubcap, right? But it's a copy of it. In the.

middle of that thing is some sort of a. generator that he said works on this. unknown element. This element 115. Oh, some of this is coming back to I think. I've seen some stuff over the years. Yes. Yeah. Some of it's coming back to. me now. And essentially the way he. describes it traveling, and again this. is in the 1980s, the way he describes it. traveling is exactly the way you. describe that sort of warp drive. changing space and time around it.

and that you would point that thing. where you wanted to go and it would just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it all it. all sounds very surreal, right? Um. there's there's another there's another. um story um again as I as I said I have. a number of friends that are keenly. interested in this and so I've been. exposed to some of the different things. and that to me the tic tac account is. interesting because it's got a lot of. rigorous data if you will that helps you. go well I I can't explain that I can't.

explain that I can't explain that uh. there is another uh accounting that I. just put in the category my brain. doesn't even know what to make of it and. it's uh the concept of rendles forest. I. don't know if that if that rings a bell. There's something over in the UK where. there's a base over there and some. airmen came across some very weird I. can't even begin to describe. I'm not. sure if I know this one. It's Yeah, it's. pretty bizarre. Uh I I don't I don't. know it well enough to unpack it today. other than to say it's it's so bizarre.

that when you listen to the accounts. that were recorded, right? Um it doesn't. make any sense. It's it's like, you. know, if you think about um if you if. you watch an octopus in a in a a an. aquarium, right? And the octopus is. doing something, you can sometimes. understand what their motivation is. There's like a a a a cross species. ability to it's like communication but. without words, right? You know, that. octopus wants to go eat that little uh.

crab or whatever the case may be. And so. our our chemical computers, even though. they're different, we can we can look at. their behavior and we can go, "All. right, I think I understand what's what. that octopus might be wanting to do. today or a shark or a dog or a por. porpus." Um, but when you hear what. happened in that Rendlessham Forest. thing, it it breaks all of my guessing. machine and I I it's like, what is the. story? Uh some they the a colonel and.

some airmen reported some weird stuff. that was going on in Rendlesson Forest. Yeah. And um they went out and tried to. investigate it and that they saw some uh. again I'm doing such a terrible job of. summarizing it because I don't really. know the lore very well. But here it is. right here. Everything they saw was very. bizarre and and crazy looking. We can. read it. It says 40 years ago, a remote. forest in Suffukk was the scene of one. of the most famous purported UFO. sightings in history. So just what did. happen and will we ever know for sure? Victor Thur Kettle was out chopping wood.

one morning in Rendlessham forest in. late December 1980 when a car drew up. Outstepped two men aged about 30 dressed. in suits. "Good morning. Do you mind if. we ask you some questions?" asked one in. a well spoken English accent. Earlier on. 26th and 28th of December, United States. Air Force security personnel stationed. near at uh stationed at nearby RAF. Woodbridge had reported seeing strange. lights in the surrounding. forest. Um forestry worker Mr. Thrutle.

uh unannounced and unidentified visitors. asked if he had been out the previous. night. I said no, he recalls. They said, "Did you leave the house at all? Did you. see anything?" I said, "What?" They. said, "Oh, there's a report of some red. lights in the forest. We're just. checking." And the two men, very. politely, but firmly asked me probably. about 20 questions. I thought they were. journalists. They suddenly said, "Oh, well, fair enough. There's probably. nothing in it." And left. So, I bought. the papers every day for the next few.

days to find out what was going on. And. of course, there was nothing. Three. years later, however, sightings made the. news of the world front page story. It. proclaimed UFO lands in Suffach. And. it's and that's official. The story was. based on a memo from RAF Woodbridge. Deputy Base Commander, Lieutenant. Colonel Charles Halt, to the Ministry of. Defense. It was released by the US. government described as an encounter. with an apparent UFO in the. forest. Since then, the sightings have. been the source of much debate and.

speculation among UFO enthusiasts and. the subject of numerous books, articles, and TV programs. In March, a documentary. concluded the sightings had achieved. legend status like the Loch Ness or King. Arthur. The the forest even have has its. own official UFO trail complete with a. life-size replica. Go back up of the. flying saucer. And this is the replica. like the Hamza thing on it. That hand. thing. Bizarre. Uh Thr Kettle UK authorities. have said they didn't learn about the.

incident. Okay. What is the story. though? Let's get to like what is the. story? Scroll down more. What does it. say? Yeah. And that that gets into the. stuff that it doesn't make sense in. terms of what they describe the UFO. doing. It's it's just very peculiar, right? So, yeah. Uh they got there, my. heart absolutely plummemed there. There. was nothing. Absolutely normal glade in. the forest with three rabbit scrapes. They're all carefully marked. Happened. to be roughly a triangle. Okay. What. else does it. say? What is the sighting? Burn marks on.

trees. But what's the sighting? I can. show you what the UFO looked like, but. they mean uh Sure. That's what they said. it looked like. Whoa. And it had those markings on it. I. Googled it. My Google search said that. Grush brought it up when he was on here, but I couldn't find like even clips. about it. So, I don't know that we went. that deep into it. How bizarre is it. that it has that symbol? What is that? That's an ancient Hindu symbol. Correct. That Hamza symbol. I don't know. These. are different symb Oh, they're.

different. That looks very weird. Huh. So, what about this one stands out. to you? I put this one in the category. of I just I don't understand if it's a. if it's a real account, right? I mean, so I think when you have a lieutenant. colonel that's reporting something as. factual, I tend not to just immediately. dismiss it, right? But what the what the. and it's not just him, it's several. people around him. what they described,

right, doesn't make sense to me, right? You know, in terms of the David Fraver. talking about the tic-tac, I can kind. of, you know, that that's not totally. alien to me. I could, oh, well, they're. it's trying to maneuver with the. aircraft and it's maneuvering to their. cap or whatever the case may be. And I I. can kind of connect the dots with that, but the Rendlesson forest thing, it. doesn't make any sense to me. What about. it doesn't make any sense. The the what. they saw, why it was doing what it was. doing. They just What was it doing? It. just was out in the woods. Was out in. the woods, you know, with blinky lights.

and doing weird stuff. And I'm like, why is that weirder than the tic tac to. you? I I don't I I don't know. So, this. is a gut thing, right? In terms of my. guts telling me I don't make I don't. understand this. This doesn't make sense. to me. I don't know how to explain it. any better than that. So, but I I if. it's just an object that's in the wood, blinking lights and looks like it's. flying, why I just don't understand why. that's weirder than I think it I think. they also described it had like melty. bits or something like that that were.

like dripping off of it and so forth. And I just that what it sounds so. completely surreal. I think maybe what. I'm what I'm unconsciously trying to do. is I'm trying to, you know, map how. might I map, you know, math and physics. to what it is they're describing to me. and I just Jamie, is this the one where. they they found debris at the scene? Did. some someone brought this up? Was it. Jacqu Valet that brought this up? Uh, here it says, "Yeah, piece of debris. seen burning up as a fireball over.

England. Serviceman thought it was a. down craft." Tuls Memo says glowing. object metallic in appearance colored. lights approached the object. It. appeared to move through the trees and. the animals on a nearby farm went into a. frenzy. One of the servicemen, Sergeant. Jim. Penniston, later claimed to have. encountered a craft of unknown origin. while in the forest, although there was. no published mention of this at the time. and there is no corroboration from other. witnesses.

H. yeah. So there's not there's there's no. matter how far you dig, there's not. going to be very much satisfactory. resolution of the mystery, if you will. It's just a a a a bonkers kind of story. This one stand out to you more than like. say Roswell because Roswell to me is one. of the most bizarre ones. When you look. at the front page of the Ros, was it the. Roswell Daily Record? I believe that has. this story saying that the government.

has recovered a flying saucer. And that. a crash flying saucer was found and you. know the story is that they grabbed the. wreckage and flew it out the right. Patterson Air Force Base and two. separate planes in case one of them. crashed and Truman met them there. like. maybe in that case it's you know the. this it's a potentially a purported. spaceship and it was around military. bases you know I I don't know it's just. the weirder again again we're getting.

into the fact I'm yeah I I don't have a. lot of depth in some of these areas. right so I understand but it's just the. weirdest uh aspect of this whole crashed. retrieval program the alleged clash. crash retrieval program if it has. occurred and it really does go back to. the 1940s. Like how did you guys hide. this? Like how how have you kept this. secret so long? Is that even conceivably. possible? That that's one of the things. I wonder about. There's a book I was um. uh recommended to read called Blind.

Man's Bluff and uh it's a book about uh. deeply classified projects um connected. to the Navy, right? they were um I think. the end effect of what they were trying. to achieve as part of what's detailed in. this book is um you you remember hearing. about deep sea rescue vehicles, right? Uh so deep sea rescue vehicles. Uh. basically that was a cover for um some. submarines that the Navy was using to.

put uh listening systems on. communication cables that were at the. bottom of some of the bodies of water uh. that I think the Soviet Union was using. at the time. And so, um, the this, uh, this book kind of details, uh, a number. of programs that went through and. developed, uh, uh, kit and hardware to. go through and accomplish these. different tasks. Um, and so it's neat to. kind of, you know, see how black. programs like that unfold. I don't know. how that book got published, but, uh, it's it's a fascinating book. But then.

that speaks to what you're wrestling. with, right? How do you have something, uh, that's so classified that doesn't. leak, right? because all the other data. that we see from other programs there. you can you can keep a secret for a. little while but you can't keep it for. that long right at least that's when I. look at these other things that's what. comes to my mind right now that doesn't. mean I'm right there could definitely be. programs that are out there right that. are maybe they've figured out how to get. around that uh but when you look at some.

of the most classified military things. that are out there they they usually. have a lifetime associated with maybe. it's just one of those things the. government's really good at like the. government's really bad at a lot of. things but maybe they're really good at. that just that one thing they've got it. down you know right right or at least. there's a small section of the. government that's really good at that. right well how's speculation you know. when when Hal says that he's pretty sure. that there's 10 of them that that gives. me pause because that that's a very. serious person well yeah he's a very. discriminating individual right he likes. to he likes to question everything and.

even though he he's thought about some. very interesting things over the span of. his career right he does bring a little. bit of that um squinty physicist to some. of the different things. And so that. gives you some measure of comfort that. even though he's thought about some wide. ranging things, he's bringing a little. bit of that uh skepticism to whatever. he's been confronted by. Also, as crazy. as what he says is, there's some things. that he won't talk about, which okay, what is that? Like if you're telling me. there's 10 crashed UFOs of nonhuman.

intelligence and then there's stuff you. can't tell me that that makes me just go. what? Like what else? What have you. seen? Howal. Stop bullshitting. You're. 88 years old. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You're on the clock, bud. You're. on the clock. Spill the beans, buddy. Right. Right. Come on. If anybody knows, please. But I guess if you did spill the. beans, my goodness, you would no longer. have access to any of that stuff and. you'd probably be in trouble. You know, they probably immediately you'd get. audited. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You. you'd have a lot of special things that.

would happen. A lot of bad things would. go your way. I would imagine. Yeah. Because you're what what he describes. that put it in light in perspective to. me. He said you have to understand that. one of the things that would happen is. there would be real problems because. you'd have to figure out how this stuff. was funded. So, this is funded by. misallocation of finances. So, you lied. to Congress. So, these are crimes. These. are crimes that put people in prison for. life. And then on top of that, you by. the way, that goes back to that book I. was telling you about, Blind Man's. Bluff, because it talks about the amount.

of money that went into that program. That was hundreds of millions of. dollars. Right. Right. And it's. interesting that gives you like a a. little bit of a window of insight into. how the black uh classified world moves. stuff around. Right. And then you also have this national. security problem because what Hal's. saying is that we're not the only ones. that have these things and that there's. essentially a mad race to try to. backineer these things and to. successfully complete. And this was the. real fear like when people were seeing.

the New Jersey drones amongst conspiracy. theorists, I was like, "Oh my god, what. if China's already nailed it, right? They're buzzing us." I I I got to think. I got to think when you when you look at. any of the counts of these things, the. the the important things to maybe help. categorize uh the nature of of things. that they see. If if a if a craft has. the ability to manifest extremely fast. speeds well in I mean SR71 does Mach, you know, 3.2. Uh if you've got. something that has radar track data that.

shows it's doing, you know, Mach 8 or. Mach 10, that's interesting. Now, we do. have hypersonic stuff, so you can't just. automatically say that it's something. exotic. It still could be something that. we know might exist out there with some. other flags on the side of the vehicle. Um, but then like you talked about. G-forces, if it can do like a a Tron. turn, right, that 90° kind of turn and. you got a radar track, um, that might. help you uh categorize the the nature of. the different signals that are out.

there. So, uh, that, and to me, that's. why like the the the tic-tac thing has. always been something that's hard for me. to just sweep away because of the. quality of the data. And some of the. stuff they describe, I I can't imagine. other conventional systems that could. potentially explain uh what they're. seeing. But a lot of the other stuff I. can actually probably piece together in. my head. It could have been it could be. this or it could be that, right? You. know, they talk about uh the the cubes. inside of a clear sphere. There are. patents in the system for radar corner.

cubes that are a cube, a metallic cube. inside of a a clear balloon uh that gets. floated to evaluate radar sensitivity. Right. And so um what do those look. like? Just looks like there's a a patent. in the system. It's there's a Yeah. So. that's a corner cube, but there's a. patent that has a version of that that's. light enough to go inside of a um uh. some kind of a balloon. Maybe it's. filled with helium or something like. that. There you go. That's the patent, right? Uh, so there's a there's a patent. in the system and so, you know, I can.

certainly see maybe if that's tethered. to a boat, right? They're just. evaluating our, you know, our radar. systems, if you will. And so, well, that. would kind of make sense until you. listen to Ryan Graves depictions of what. these things were doing. They were. standing motionless at 120 knot winds. They're moving at the same rate. If it's. tethered, well, if it's moving, I Yeah, I can't I can't I can't describe that. But if it's static, it could be tethered. to a boat, right? But that looks goofy. Like if you look at what that looked. like, Jamie, pull that photo off you. just had like that. I don't think that's. tricking.

a jet. The one on the left though is uh. it's actually a metallic cube inside. Interesting. Yeah. So the one on the. left, is there an image of that with a. metallic cube inside the sphere? Must be. the patent. I don't know. Okay. So it's. theoretical. They don't want us to know. how it works. Right. Of course. So in a. lot of cases, I can again I'm agnostic. and so I bring this this framework to. the table. Uh, and so only, you know, the the Tic Tac ones really, I think the. one that bubbles up in my mind with the. highest quality data that I haven't been.

able to categorize. Well, it could be A, B, or C. That's, you know, more boring. explanation. Jamie, go back to that blue. explore. It could be some fake AI. Could. be nonsense. Pilots notes for cube. transium vehicle. Yeah, it doesn't sound. promulated by order of AI restricted. Come on. It's restricted. This is like. super important. It says for official. use only, right? It's on the internet. It's got to be legit. Yeah. I am a I am. a French. I am a French model, right? That's just to buy stuff. Oh, it's just.

to buy stuff. It's just goofy. It's just. silly. We need to get those get some tic. tac stuff. You know, the lack of sonic. boom is one of the things I want to talk. about. Like if that thing could move at. that kind of a hypers hypersonic speed, there would be some sort of a sonic. boom. Right. If if it's not exactly. right, if it's if it's not some kind of. laser system that's creating pixels, right? Right. Uh and it's some solid. thing, if it's going supersonic, it. based on everything we know with. aerodynamics, it should have a sonic. boom. And if if it doesn't, and it is a.

a physical thing, then that demands an. explanation, right? And I I wouldn't be. able to explain that, right? And so that. those and that's exactly why something. like the the data that comes out of the. the tic tac thing I haven't been able to. just pound flat and make go away, right? It keeps surviving all of my grumpy. physicist attacks, right? So do does it. frustrate you that you've never seen one. of these things or have you? Uh so funny. story. Uh and beer beer is involved. Uh. oh. How much? A little bit. Drinking.

with Shane Gillis a little bit. How much. beer? A little bit. So, we were down at. Kennedy Space Center. Uh, and this is. this is a cautionary tale to don't. always believe what your eyes see, right? Because you you potentially. could, you know, lead yourself down the. wrong path. So, we're down at Kennedy. Space Center. Uh, we had put some uh. docking cameras on um uh some space. station modules and spent a lot of, you. know, number of days working long hours. wearing those uncomfortable bunny suits.

and so forth. And so finished all this. stuff, wanted to go celebrate. So we. went to the beach and had a little bit. of unwinding time and drank a few beers, hanging out. Um and so we're out on the. east coast uh down there close to. Kennedy and um we're looking up at the. sky and uh you could see some of the. satellites coming over, right? Our eyes. adjusted to the to the light. You could. occasionally see some satellites coming. over and you kind of expect them to have. a track that goes uh you know, west to. east, if you will. generally. I mean,

they can come to all different angles. Um, but then we started seeing some uh. uh some satellite tracks that were very. different from what we might expect uh. being rocket scientists, right? We're. watching this stuff that looks a little. different. That's kind of interesting. And it's at a very different angle. Well, maybe it's a Russian spy satellite. that's retrograde and it's, you know, we're we're trying to figure out what. this could be. And then, you know, couple more beers later and uh we we see. four or five more of these tracks, right? And we're like, well, maybe all.

these all these people that talk about. these crazy things, right? May maybe. there's something to that, right? Now, there's about about an hour's gone by as. we've gone through this process. And I'm. we finally see another one of these. little glowy orbs, if you will. And I I. look at it and I and I just realize out. of the the edge of the glowy orb the. wings of a seagull, right? So it's the. it's the white belly of a seagull. reflecting the light the near the light. from the nearby city. And so that's what.

we're seeing, right? And so it's one of. those things that's just uh something to. to make you, you know, think about what. you're seeing. It may not be I mean. because it's it's it's breaking all my. guessing machines. It's breaking all of. our guessing machines and we're we're. wondering and speculating about it. But. in the end, it was just, you know, it. was just a seagull doing their nightly. business, right? And look at these silly. guys looking at me. Right. So that's. funny. That is funny. So yeah, that's my. only experience. Yeah. Well, the mind. definitely plays tricks on you, especially when beer's involved. Right.

Right. Right. But I I can't dismiss all. of the different very serious people. that have talked about these things. And. that's where uh I get really perplexed. and my agnosticism gets it gets ch. tested. Right. Right. I you know I I. tend to try and always keep a squinty. eye towards it and I think that's. probably good uh to to do that because. then that the stuff that survives that. filter, right, is is high quality stuff, right? And so that the the things that. keep coming out of the the the tic tac.

thing, I I just I can't kill that. I. keep wanting to try and kill it, but I I. can't. What about when you look at. things like the go fast video or the. fleer video and you you look at these. crafts that are moving in some very. weird way that they don't exhibit. traditional propulsion signatures. So yes, those are interesting videos and. they come from trained professional. fighter pull the one where it rotates. Jamie fighter pilots. Um and so I I.

can't I can't dismiss those accounts. Um, but the the integrated quality of. that data is not the same as the the tic. tac. Right. Right. Where you've got. multiple aircraft, multiple radar. systems over multiple days. Right. That's one of those and eyewitnesses. Yes. Exactly. And and not only. eyewitnesses, I mean, they're they're. laying eyes on this thing and you and. it's not just one plane where sometimes. you can fool yourself. Uh, but this. thing is very This is the gimbal video.

This thing is very strange, right? Oh, he put the guys talking about it because. he going against the wind. The wind's. 120 knots. west, dude. That's not our LS though, is it? It's. LS, dude. Well, if there's. It's rotating.

It's rotating. It's going against the. wind and it's rotating. And I, you know, I acknowledge the fact it doesn't have. any thermal signatures that were. indicative of like a a plume or. something like that, right? So, uh, some. of those things definitely are hard to. explain. It's also listening to these. guys listening to fighter pilots going, "Look at that thing." Yeah. Because. their their eyes are trained to go. through and and uh discern uh different. things because, you know, they're always. thinking about, you know, can this kill. me? Can I kill it? What do I need? you.

know, they're I I completely acknowledge. the fact they have that that framework. uh drilled into their head and that. helps um uh put this into a special. category. Uh but those are unfortunately. single data points. So I can't do. anything with that, right? And that and. that gets back to what we talked about. at the beginning of all this. I would. love for somebody to show up with a a. notebook, right? Full of all these great. observations that would help me. You. know, we're making these little these. little nano chips that are we're trying.

to use to extract energy. See those? Yeah, sure. These is that the actual. nano chips? These are a bunch of the. nano chips that we're doing. This is. part of the Casmir company that we spun. out. Uh these chips uh interact with the. quantum field uh and generate a voltage. potential between those leads. And so we. uh we measure voltage on those guys. We. put them in dark RF shielded enclosures. Uh there's some pictures. Yeah. So just. looking at these is so cool. Yeah. Well, it and it's fun to think about how do. you even make stuff like that? We can. talk about that in just a minute, but. you know, let's talk about the some of.

the applications, right? You know, this. this is let's see, can we go back a. couple slides? Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Uh one more. All right. So, let's uh just spend maybe three minutes. here talking about the Casmir force. Uh. at least taking up picking up where we. left off. Okay. Right. So we talked. about the idea of the casmir force is a. macroscopic observational consequence of. something called the quantum vacuum.

these fluctuating fields and forces. If. you go to the next slide. Jamie. So conceptually the following is. true independent of anything that we're. doing with with the nanotechnology we're. developing. If you allow the quantum. field to interact on these two metal. plates that we talked about as part of. the casmir force, uh it will apply a. force over a distance and it will cause. that gap to close and go to zero. Right? So that is by definition a force over a.

distance and so that is a unit of work. So the casmir force phenomena is a. illustration of extracting energy from. the quantum field. So independent of. anything that we're doing, right? That's. part of what's baked into the idea of. the kasmir force interacting with the. quantum field. Now the you might say, well, maybe we could use that as a power. source. The only the only problem with. this textbook illustration of a kasmir. cavity is on the once the plates have.

collapsed, right? There's no more you. can't get any more energy out of it. You. have to actually pull the plates apart. You have to wind the wind the watch. again, if you will. And so this type of. an approach would at best simply be a. battery. So you couldn't extract. continuous energy from the quantum field. from this type of an apparatus. So this. leads into an innovation that we came. across. So Jamie, if you go forward one. more. slide. This is a slightly larger version. of that that scanning electron. microscope image.

So we've changed the the standard casmir. cavity concept uh by adding these. pillars along the midplane. So we have. these structures that we put inside the. middle of the casmir cavity. And so you. see we got a a cavity wall on the left. and a cavity wall on the right and these. big three pillars. Uh the walls are. fixed to the substrate. They can't move. We don't want them to move. We want them. to stay still. And then the pillars are. also fixed to the substrate. They cannot.

move. The walls are electrically. connected to one another. And the. pillars are electrically connected to. one another, but they're isolated. So. that's just a physical description of. what this is. So now let's talk about. how does this custom structure uh. interact with the quantum field. What's. the difference with this particular. structure? So for that, let me give you. a. metaphor. Imagine a Pacific ATL island.

out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It's surrounded by the Pacific Ocean. with all this random wave energy that's. beating the outside of the atl Island. Uh but at the center of the ATL island, there's a nice lagoon, right? Very. quiescent, very smooth. Uh the water's. connected to the Pacific, but a lot of. that wave energy can't manifest on the. lagoon. So, it's a protected and nice. environment. So, imagine Joe, you're. sipping um you know, some some nice uh.

uh water and having a nice uh paddle. paddle board day, quiescent, enjoying. yourself. And you know, Jamie, he took. the other uh package and he went deep. sea fishing out on the Pacific Ocean. And so, he's really bobbling back and. forth and it's much more uncomfortable. for him. Maybe he's getting sick and. feeding the fish, right? So now with. that metaphor in mind, let's come back. to the structure. So this structure, the. walls on the outside are like the. Pacifica a toll island inside the.

quantum field which is like the Pacific. Ocean. So it's assaulting that structure. on all sides. Uh the pillars are like. you on your paddle board in the lagoon. It's a protected environment. And so the. way the quantum field interacts with. this structure is it will occasionally. cause a real electron inside the walls. to quantum tunnel to the pillars. And so. the pillars are like you on your paddle. board. It's a very quiescent. environment. And so the electron shows.

up through this quantum tunneling. process, but there's no wave energy on. the lagoon to mirror that current back. to the walls. So in that way this. structure will interact with the quantum. field and generate a voltage potential. So we can measure a negative voltage on. the pillars relative to the wall. And so. although this is a very tiny little. cavity and we can measure the voltage. directly using atomic force microscopes,

if we put these guys together by the. tens of thousands or hundreds of. thousands, then we can get to voltage. and current levels that map to things. that we care about in application like, you know, tire pressure monitor system, something that uses a, you know, microwatts worth of power or um a Fitbit. or, you know, you've got the ring there. I think that's an electronic ring or. something like that. Uh an oral ring. Yeah. Some some low power applications. And so um using this uh you know this.

approach we're trying to generate uh. we're trying to create uh chips that are. about the size of your pinky nail that. you know generate uh 1 and a half volts. and 25 micro amps. And so that maps to a. number of chips that are on the market. today uh that operate at that power. level but they you know they have to be. recharged. We we don't have to be. recharged. So, we're like a solar panel. that works in the dark. So, you can put. us in your device and then it can go. down to the bottom of the ocean and it.

will continue to work. Or you can we can. give it to our buddies at Intuitive. Machines and they can carry it to the. surface of the moon and maybe they want. to throw a sensor off to go measure. something and it'll collect data uh even. though the sun stops shining. So the the. the cool thing. is like I said at the beginning of this. interview, we we were going down this. whole path of trying to understand the. nature of the quantum field because we. were motivated by where we might. envision it could lead one day. Maybe we. could add more a deeper understanding of.

that physics vin diagram and get to a. point where we can figure out what do we. need to put into the rings that go. around that uh ISIS enterprise concept. shift if you will. And so it's cool to. think that, you know, may maybe we could. come up with a technology that, you. know, provides useful power today for. things like this. Um maybe, you know, as. we if we if we put it in aggregate, if. we put a lot of them together, right, we. could get to a point where what is that. chip? So this is so this is just a 3D.

print of having a bunch of of those. little chips that are one 5 millime x 5. millime, one and a half volts, 25 micro. amps. If we add a bunch of those. together at a very large extreme, you. know, that particular board might. generate 3.4 watts. And so that board. could recharge your phone in 3 hours. And so imagine a scenario where you had. a had a phone that's pretty resilient. that for the most parts you'd never have. to plug it in. That might be pretty. useful, right? So, and it's neat to.

think that pursuing, you know, this. whole uh reaching for the stars type of. thing has fueled this exploration of uh. pushing the boundaries of what we know. and then kind of coming across. instantiations that make us go, hey, wait a minute, not you know, although we. were thinking about these kinds of. things, look, look at what we could. potentially do now. And so we could find. ways to, you know, feed the research and. still bring value here in in incredible.

ways. I mean, this this capability is. amazing to think in terms of what it. could unlock, right? Especially if we. could, you know, if this is three three. and a half watts, you could imagine you. put a bunch of these together, you could. rapidly get to a kilowatt or even more, right? And uh have expeditionary power. I don't know if you've ever wanted to. have a, you know, a farm out in the. middle of some uh untouched area where. you didn't want to pay the money to run. the power line. Well, now maybe, you. know, in 10, 15 years, maybe you. wouldn't have to. We would, we could.

provide a solution that would allow you. to come off the grid, right? So, I was. seeing something online about some new. technology that I believe was invented. in Japan where they have figured out a. way to extract far more energy from. solar panels. Yeah, I think they've uh increased the. efficiency on solar panels, but there is. a limit to that, right? In terms of um I. think it's you're you know when you get. to uh close to 40% efficiency on a solar. panel, you're kind of at the limit of.

what you can do and then the challenge. you have with a solar panel is um at the. surface of the earth during ideal peak. lighting conditions uh the flux of power. you get about a thousand watts per. square meter, right? So if you wanted, you know, a system that provided 5. kilowatts of of power, you you could do. the math and figure you need a fairly. big area. Uh with our technology, we can. stack it on top of one another. We don't. have to stretch out like that. And so. the quantum field could potentially uh.

provide uh a lot more power with a much. smaller footprint, if you will. Right. now, I have to acknowledge we're still. very early, right? We're very low power. levels and so we want to crawl, walk, run. Um, but we're, you know, we're. thinking about what can we do now to to. to provide use, right? And then use. those applications to to continue to. grow the capability uh at Casemir. And. then ultimately, if you have those. things stacked 50 feet thick and, you.

know, 700 m in a circle, you know, then. you have enough power to make a warp. drive, right? Well, and and but and so. this gets into the the cool thing. is what we're what we're trying to. understand and study inside these little. chips that we're making is we're trying. to understand the nature of the quantum. field, right? The structure to the. quantum field. How can we altern it? How. can we tweak it? What can we do with it? because you you know we talked about the. fact that negative vacuum energy density.

is potentially a good proxy for the idea. of exotic matter in terms of what. general relativity requires and so in. the process of deep developing a deeper. understanding of the quantum field with. what we're doing with these devices. right I would contend that we're. actually adding another circle on that. vin diagram that's potentially not not. only overlapping part of quantum. mechanics but it's also overlapping part. part of general relativity. And I think. that's kind of what's going to be. necessary to be able to make the idea of.

space warp real one day. We're going to. have to have that new body of physics, those new E= MC² equations, right? That. allows us to potentially ah hey, if I do. this and this and this and it might, you. know, maybe I can solve that problem. But I think your instincts are right on. right from the standpoint what we're. doing in the in the micro here, right? If you cracked open one of the access. panels on the ISS Enterprise and you. looked, you might see some some stuff.

that's like I can see how these guys are. descendants to what gets put together in. that uh in that ring in macroscopic, whatever that might be, right? So, it's. got to be so frustrating that this has. this immense potential, but like you. imagine seeing it like how do you get to. do it? It's I'm not I don't want to say. frustrating, challenging, exciting, just. knowing that there's this potential. energy source that could be tapped and. knowing that just like all technology. I.

mean, if you go back to the Apollo. program, the amount of power that you. have in your phone far exceeds what they. used and they had like a whole giant. room filled with supercomputers and now. you just carry it around and you plug it. into the wall and it's 50% charge in 20. minutes. It's like nuts. Yeah, we we. take that for grant. It It's interesting. you mentioned that, right? If you if you. look back through um the if you think. about the industrial revolution when. when we when we started when we came up. with steam power, right? And then when.

we later figured out um you know uh. gasoline engines, right? The the amount. of power we had available to us changed. so drastically, right? the change that. it had on human uh civilization and. human culture is just hard to fully. comprehend because I mean if you think. about all the different things that get. done a a you know a single tractor with. one person on it will you know do all. the stuff that's necessary to seed a.

field to uh cultivate a field um to plow. a field and it's it's amazing to think. that that's possible just with one human. being at the helm of the tractor. here, but you had to unlock all the energy uh. insights to unlock the energy in what we. know from uh petrochemical, right? Just. ga gas, diesel, whatever, right? And so. um yeah, it's it's neat to think how. things like that change civilization. And so um in some ways it's like if you. if you think about the the the long-term.

benefits of reducing something like this. to practice, right, the you know. um we talk about the grid, right? You. were here in Texas when we had I think. we had some issues during a very cold. winter where Urkott got its R removed, right? The the power grid had some. issues because it got really cold. Um. but imagine uh a future where we can. start to create micro grids. Uh maybe. even eventually move away from something. like that and then what would that kind.

of a capability do for uh parts of the. world that currently don't have any. infrastructure in place. Right. Right. There's a lot of places in in Africa. where if you brought these this type of. a capability where you could plop a. brick down on the table that's 1. kilowatt, right? And let people know you. can hey, can you make use of this? And. so just like Starlink provides this. opportunity for people in remote. locations to have access to the. internet, right? we could potentially. bring a solution to the table that could.

help a lot of places on the planet uh. that you know it may they might not ever. see that otherwise. Right? So that's the. thing. So that those are some things. that have us excited about as we. continue to wrestle with technology. Right? Anytime you're trying to do. something when you're trying to. establish order where there's only. chaos, it's hard, right? But um uh that. the things that help us weather that is. the the long-term implications of what. we're doing both in the near term and in. the farterm. It's really cool to think,

right? We can provide benefits, you. know, here and then farther down the. line here and then farther down the line. to here and then, oh, by the way, the. whole reason we're doing all this stuff. is because we hope to try and make the. idea of a space where possible one day, right? It's cool to kind of have that. that connection between all these. different nodes uh along the way, right? Where you can see the path. Yeah. Yeah. You can see the path, right? See how it. be useful for people today, right? I. mean, think about like um what when we.

have a hurricane that hits, right, and. the power goes out. Um you're without. power until they can get the power lines. up, right? If you have capabilities like. this maybe 50 years in the future or. something like that, right? Where. everybody just, you know, they're off. the grid, right? that changes the nature. of how we contend with um you know. disasters like that, right? And. monopolizing resources, right? That's. the other issue. We'd no longer be. dependent upon fossil fuels or. essentially everyone would be. independent, right? And then you could.

imagine as it scales up, it gets better. and better. Just like cell phones were. initially these very large bricks that. you know remember from Wall Street the. guy had Oh, hi. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. I can do dinner. You had that big brick. with you. And now they're the little. tiny things. And so you could imagine. how that would eventually get to a point. where it it's portable and and anyone. can have power everywhere you want to. go. Yeah. So some of the things we think. about in terms of the the road map for. things, right? Um you know, it may take.

us a little while before we could uh. provide all the power that's necessary. for like a Tesla. Um, but we could we. could imagine a scenario where like I. hold this little prop up again. We've. got this this three and a half watt. brick uh three and a half watt card. Maybe we put a bunch of them together to. create a 1 kilowatt um module of sorts. Um so maybe a Tesla's got 50 kilowatt. hours worth of capacity in it. Um most.

of your daily driving that folks do is. you know to work and home. So, it's. maybe 50 miles to and 50 miles uh from. 100 miles a day, right? And so, um if. you've got a a an electric vehicle that. has all the batteries already in it, but. then you you make the decision to buy a. a 1 kilowatt Casemir module, right, and. you connect it to your car, um that. module will provide over a 24-h hour. period, it will provide 24 kilowatt.

hours of capacity. And so in terms of. the the driving duty that I just talked. to you about, right, um you're not going. to drain the battery enough where the. casmir cell couldn't just continue to. recharge it. So in that particular. instance, even though we we might be a. little bit farther o, you know, being. able to power a whole car, we we might. be able to find opportunities for early. adopters where hey, for 99% of how you. might use your electric vehicle, you.

don't have to plug it in, right? So from. where we are now with your current. research and all this these incredible. ideas, what what steps have to be taken. in order to advance this stuff? Right. Right. So the the first step is trying. to get to the power magnitude I just. described one and a half volts and 25. micro amps. So we we have chips these. chips right here um you know uh they can. achieve very high voltages uh but then. they relax to a certain steadystate. voltage over a long term, right? So they.

have they have the ability to provide. steadystate power uh but it's like 30. mil uh 30 molts uh with a steady state. current uh and so it's the current that. we're currently working on right now. We're trying to get the current up to. that 25 micro amp ability right now. And. so that's the stuff that we're doing uh. you know every month we're trying to do. another generation of uh chips to go. through and and work the material. science and get that uh capacity to that. level. So and making chips is that's.

tough. That is tough business. So, it's. been quite the slog. You know, we've. we've been doing this since 2000 uh. 2020. Um the first chips we worked on. took us, you know, 18 months to make and. then we got the time down to 12 months. and then we got the time down to seven. months and then we got, you know, uh we. got uh uh these guys down to it's. actually this was a twoe sprint from the. time we did the design to the time we. got them in hand. Uh but roughly we're. anticipating we can make these. generations once a month. Um so making.

chips is very different from you know. how we view the rest like this wooden. table right you know if you right if you. think about making something you think. about drills and saws and cutting holes. and putting bolts in and so forth u but. when you talk about making chips it's an. entirely different approach to how you. make things you make things with with. light and you make things with plasma. right you know um this will be a good. opportunity for me to use a a little a. verbal description and you can grade me. on how well I communicate this, right?

Okay. So, how you know in in concept, how do you make something smaller than. what you can see with your eyeballs? Um, so ordinarily when we want to look at. something very small, we use a. microscope, right? So, we got this. optical system we look through and then. we look at something, maybe it's got a. parramium or whatever in it. Um, now the. what we're looking at is very tiny and. we use optics to blow that up. And in. some cases, instead of putting our eyes. against the the the little viewports on.

the microscope, maybe we'll put an. imager, a camera on there, and we'll. take that the camera will collect the. image and put it on a big screen, a big. LCD screen. Now, if you think about that. in reverse, what if you you know, like. let's say you're looking at you're. looking at our chips and you're seeing. these squares and circles and tiny. little different shapes and so forth. Um, but it's projected on a big screen. Now, imagine for a moment instead you go. through in some CAD program and you draw.

squares and circles or whatever. Maybe. you you draw a picture of Jaime's head, right? And then you go through and you. take that that that digital file you. just created and you you kind of look at. this whole process that I was talking. about in reverse. And so instead of. using a imager to collect the image, use. a projector to project the image back. down through the optics, right? Where. now you project some shape you want to. manifest on a chip, right? But you you.

can't see it with you could look at it. with your eyes, but you couldn't see it, right? But you're using this projection. system through the microscope in reverse. to put the image down on the chip. So. now the next thing you do is you take a. let's say you got a silicon wafer uh and. then you go through and you you apply. something we call photoresist. It's like. um like a really thick uh almost like a. a a honey type of consistent. A little. thinner than that, right? But you you. put some photoresist on the wafer and. then you spin it at really high RPM and.

it spins that photo resist so that it's. very thin and you take that wafer with. the photo resist and you expose it to. the image you want to put onto it with. ultraviolet light, right? Right? And so. that hardens part of that. photoresist and then you develop that. wafer to remove all the the photoresist. that was not exposed to the ultraviolet. light and then maybe you expose it to a. plasma and you etch it. And so every. place where there's no photoresist, it. etches the surface. But where the where.

the photo resists survive because you. exposed it with your ultraviolet light, you now have an image. So you could look. at that with a microscope again and then. you'd see, you know, Jaime's mug on the. surface of the silicon wafer. And so in. concept, that's how the idea of when you. make a CPU or you make memory or you. make any of this digital technology. that's that's technically how it works. Uh you are you old enough to remember u.

microfich? What is that? Oh, the little. film. Yeah, the little acetate things in. school that you put in. Right. So yeah. So that's another kind of illustration. of it, but um just not applied to a. chip, right? So well, I would imagine. the manufacturing of something like this. is a spectacular undertaking that would. require a long time to develop the kind. of factories that you would need to do. this kind of stuff at scale in the. United States. And this is a this is an. issue that we have that was really. highlighted by the the COVID pandemic.

where we weren't able to get shipments. of things and a lot of cars weren't for. sale. Yep. because they didn't have the. chips to put in a lot of the new. American vehicles or in some cases they. took functionality out because they. couldn't get the ding-dang chips, right, to go do what they wanted to go do. Yeah. this this yeah I was really glad. to see a lot of attention be brought to. bear uh with I think it was the chips. act and even Texas has taken a very. strong stance on trying to.

um uh try and attract uh some chip. manufacturing capability uh here in. Texas right yeah we were talking about. the Samsung plant that they built here. that but it but that the Samsung plant. kind of highlights the issues because. they weren't able to achieve the. tolerances that they required. in large batches. I think I think. they'll eventually get there, right? This is those are just illustrations of. the fact it takes a while to get. everything dialed in. Um just like it, you know, it took us 18 months to get.

our first chip and then now we're. getting a twoe sprint. We can we can. make our chip and it took five years uh. to get to that capability if you will. I. think they'll get all that figured out. But in my mind that the other value. proposition for chip manufacturing, right, is to me chip manufacturing is. like the um 21st century automobile. manufacturing jobs, if you will. It. seems like that could provide a great. opportunity for, you know, people to get. uh meaningful work that pays well, that.

makes a product that a lot of people. need, right? Right. And so I think in. some ways that's the that that's the. upside to trying to. um focus on getting more chip. manufacturing here in the states. Right. So I I just think that's a that's a win. That's a win-win. Right. Yeah. Because. the chip manufacturing, one of the. things that Apple stated, they they have. a apparently a big leap coming forward. with the iPhone 17 and uh they think. that they're they're going to have to. manufacture these in China. I was.

reading Tim Cook talking about it. because they're saying that China is the. only nation that's capable of achieving. what they're trying to put into these. Is it Is it China or Taiwan? I believe I. don't know. I believe it's China. I. think because I think I I certainly I. don't know definitively either. Right. But when I when I think of maybe. actually maybe it's just manufacturing. that's the issue, not the chips. Okay. But see if you could find what Tim Cook. said about needing to develop the iPhone. or manufacture the iPhone 17 because I.

think a lot of their stuff they do in. India now, but they think this new one. is going to be so sophisticated that. they're going to have to have it made. back in China again. Yeah. I So when I. when I think of cutting edge chip. capability, I think of TSMC, right? Uh. that is um uh in Taiwan, right? And. they've got those those machines, the. ASML machines that are that. This is a a very interesting thing, right? So, the the machines that help. make some of those tiny chips that are. inside the iPhone, um they're made by.

this machine, uh that's um developed by. a company called ASML over in uh the. Netherlands. Um, and I, you know, part. of me thinks it's like that's a very. small brain trust of people, right, that. are making machines that are kind of, you know, setting the pace for, you. know, because I think about how what. happens if somebody, you know, a bus has. an accident or something like that, right? It's just like such a small group. of people that have this skill on how to. make these these tiny little features.

that are two or three nanometers. I. mean, that's like that's crazy small. So, we're Yeah. What percentage of the. population can do that? Right? There's. not a lot. And and two two or three. nanometers, it's like that's, you know, if you were to if if you were to put uh. DNA on the table, right, and you. calculated two or three nanometers, it'd. be it'd be as very Oh, here let me give. you a here's a here's a better. comparison. Uh if you hold a marble in. your hand and you imagine that is one. nanometer, right? It just kind of a. comparison here. So you have a marble in.

your hand, that's one nanometer. Well, how big is a meter? A meter is the size. of the earth by comparison. So just just. to put a nanometer in mind, right? So we. can all envision a meter. Wow, right? So. that puts a nanometer to scale, right? And so they're they're making things. with lateral features that have this, you know, handful of nanometers in mind. Now that said, I I do think I do think. that is so crazy. I do think chips are. reaching a limit in terms of what they. can do for the lateral features. The.

next big chapter I think for chips is. they're going to go 3D. They're going to. start making them uh they've got a bunch. of efforts in place to try and figure. out how to make uh chips much more uh 3D. like especially when they may even. include multiple different chips, right, that that serve different purposes, if. you will. You'll no longer just have. this single flat chip that does this. surface. There'll be a bunch of chips on. top of one another that get integrated. into assembly. You already see it in. this tire pressure monitor system. There's a little chip here on the back. of that's actually a system of chips.

There's a bunch of chips in that little. silver piece on the end there. There's a. microprocessor. There's a Bluetooth. module. There's a pressure sensor. Uh. and then there was there's a receiver. Look how small that is. Yeah. That's. that's just that's nothing, right? So. that that little shiny silver piece. Yeah, that shiny that shiny silver piece. that is that's not only just the. pressure sensor. It's all the other uh. support electronics and everything else. is just, you know, simple dumb stuff if. you a big battery in comparison to. everything else. and a big battery that. has to last 5 years, right? And so. that's, you know, that's why they and it.

and it this is not you don't take the. lid off this thing. This is glued on, right? It's it's a it's a when it's. done, you just throw it away, right? So. that's the current operating process. So. So crazy. Now, when you think about the. current capabilities of AI and how it's. expanding at a very rapid rate, do you. think that that will assist us in being. able to figure out new ways to. accomplish these tasks? You know, I I. think so. When AI first came out, I I.

tried it a few times and um I wasn't. satisfied with with, you know, the. quality of what I was able to do with. it. This is a number of years ago, right? Um but uh you know in the last uh. last 12 months I've kind of gotten in. the habit of using it much more in in a. lot of the different things that I do. and it certainly does bring a lot of. value in certain certain areas. Um and. you know. the a lot of people talk about. artificial intelligence is going to kill. us. Oh my gosh it's going to kill us.

Right. And and I I don't think it's. artificial intelligence that's going to. you know that's going to be a potential. big problem. It's more a measure of. artificial incompetence, right? And so. let me let me unpack that. Okay. And so. I I think AI is an amazing tool and it's. only going to get more useful as we. continue to move forward. And I use it. every single day, right? In terms of. different things that that I explore. It's extremely useful. Uh and there's. times when you're interacting with it. where you might even think to yourself,

right? Come on. Is there some dude. actually typing on the other side of. this screen? Because it's like it's. joking with me for crying out loud. And. it's instantaneous, right? and it's. instantaneous, right? And so, um, I. think as human beings, we tend to. anthropomorphize everything, right? And. so, I think in a lot of ways, we want to. give it more credit than it is due, right? And so, we when we interact with. it, we we might think based on the. quality of the interaction, oh my gosh, this this stuff is amazing. This is. artificial general intelligence. But. then it'll go off and do something.

totally boneheaded and you'll even call. it on it and it'll say no I'm I'm I did. this exactly right and it's just like. and you know from your own training. right that whatever it offered up is is. quite quite wrong right and so for I. keep I keep waiting for somebody that do. you remember the movie Dr. Strange Love. from the 60s, right? So the Stanley. Kubric thing and this movie of absurdity. showing uh you know how. in incompetence in the government and. the military leads to the destruction of.

of the world, if you will. You know, it's like we need a a Stanley Kubri. equivalent today to to do a a movie. called AI Bob, right? Where AI Bob, you. know, accidentally takes out the world. while trying to help, right? You know, right? And it just I I think it's one of. those things where I think AI is an. amazing tool. We need to find out more. ways to use it. It's incredible. Uh but. I think we just need to remind ourselves. it's not quite as capable as we might. think it is. And we need to be careful.

of that so that we don't, you know, put. it in control of something in a certain. way where because it has these other. faults, right? It does something that's. really unfortunate, right? So, so we. have to make sure that it's reached a. very high level of proficiency before it. gets right or just be careful about how. we use it and never be afraid to. question what it provides, right? Because there's no question it helps me. be faster at a lot of stuff I want to. do, right? But I have a lot of skills. and talent that I use to filter whatever. it's given me and I go, "Huh, no, that's.

totally wrong." Right? So, but I. wouldn't be able to do that. I just. trust it and I'd build something that. kills everybody. Yeah, that's dang it, I. forgot to carry the two. Well, when you. when you think about the potential. future versions of AI, that's where. things get very interesting because if. you do get to a point where it it. achieves a much higher level of. understanding of all the physical. properties of the of the universe and. and does really understand the quantum. vacuum and does really understand how to.

utilize it. So I think I I think one of. the things because I have been thinking. about this is and and I know a lot of. other people are trying to figure out. how to use AI to go through and help um. navigate on physics frontiers. Um you. know AI is trained on a bunch of. existing data, right? And so in some. ways it is an an enormous experiment in. statistics. And. so so I I I would I would wonder how uh.

how much an AI system by itself. uh could could innovate new ideas. It. certainly could recognize patterns, but. once you institute sensience and then if. if it's possible at all to make it. creative. Mhm. That that's where I. that's where I wonder. what great question and I'm not an AI. expert so I'm not I'm going to tread. very carefully here. Um when I think. about how they train AI today, it is.

certainly a measure of statistics, right? And so when you talk about uh an. AI agent being able to actually think in. the way that you and I might consider. thinking, um I don't think anything that. we have does that per se, right? You. just got a a a bunch of GPUs that are. taking in input and then passing it. through uh a matrix of all this stuff. that's from training and then so the. statistics of what comes out, right, is.

a result of whatever training that was. done. And so it's not like um it's not. like uh Leonardo da Vinci uh imagining. where he's going to put his next brush. stroke on the the ceiling of the the. cyine chapel. Um uh but certainly it. could it could potentially, you know, take an image of the cyine chapel and. mix it with an image of uh some other. modern art or whatever and come up with. some cool homogenization of things, right? And so forth. But I I I still. think I I think we need to better.

understand what is consciousness, right, before we can really even do that. What. do you What do you think it is? Oh, that's Yeah, I I have you thought I know. you thought about it. You think about. everything. Yeah, I I don't know. It's a good. question. I would I would speculate, right? Um, you know, maybe this comes. down to um. uh the nature of the the quantum field, the quantum vacuum. You know, I I think.

um there are other forms of radiation uh. um scalar field fluctuations with the. quantum field that are beyond. electromagnetic like the lights in this. room. It's electromagnetic radiation. Um, uh, scalar fluctuations would. potentially be a whole another realm of. radiation that we currently don't have. any sensors to detect, right? But maybe. biology uses those types of things. Uh, and so there's there are things inside. cell structures called microtubules. I. think how maybe even mentioned something.

about microtubules to you when he was. here the other day. Um but uh cells have. microtubial structures in them and I. think uh that may be connected to the. idea of consciousness although I don't. have a well enough formulated answer to. be able to to defend anything. So I I'm. treading very carefully because this is. not my area of expertise but but it's. fun to speculate. It is fun to speculate. and I I maybe we can maybe we can. schedule another opportunity to come. back and we can uh talk about uh. consciousness bring a couple other folks.

that are more cognizant than me. I would. love that. Yeah. Yeah. You want to. organize that? You know who you would. call? I don't know yet. I'll think about. I'll have I'll have a I'll have a think. actually. Probably have a couple other. cool ideas for cool things we can we can. con fab on. I think a lot of people. would really enjoy learning and. listening about. Well, that would be a. fantastic collaboration with people that. have theories about consciousness along. with these theories, these quantum. theories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. stuff. Harold, thank you so much. So. interesting. And I'm so happy that. people like you are out there in the.

world working on this stuff, which I'm. sure one day, you know, when people look. at the past and say, "Boy, look at those. cave people. Look what they're doing.". You know what I'm saying? Cuz like like. we would look at the Victorian people or. we would look at people from thousands. of years ago. I think they'll they'll. look back at this going, "Wow, they were. this is where it all started." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This was the. moment. So, let's definitely do that. Let's definitely have another visit and. and bring in some people that will. explore consciousness together. Sounds. good. I love it. Thank you. so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Joe, for having me. Bye, everybody. Yeah.

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