Joe Rogan Experience #2308 - Jordan Peterson

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. No. No. I'm too vain. That's exactly right. I. look back and I think, "Oh, that those. headphones are pushing up my hair.". Isn't that sad? Shave your head. That's. sad. You never look back if you do. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's the greatest thing. in the world. It's freedom. I have a I. have a big dent here from when a.

meteorite landed on me when I was a kid. A meteorite? Oh, funny story. I've got. plenty of cuts on my head. I got them. all over the place. Well, you're looking. pretty unscarred. Oh, the back of my. head. I have uh one when I was a little. kid. It's pretty big. That uh these one. of these cranes that lifts up sewer. pipes. Those big concrete pipes. Bang me. off the back of the head. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's not good. Grayed out. Went. to the hospital. Were you a different. person before that experience? I don't. know. I You have to talk to my mom. I.

was always a little wild. This could be. of autobiographical significance here. Oh, there's definitely a lot of head. trauma. Were you knocked out. personality? No. No. I stayed conscious, but I got close. That's the big. predictor. I got gray. Everything I. grayed out that I came back to. I didn't. completely go unconscious. So, uh Jamie. went golfing this weekend with OJ. Simpson's golf clubs. Uh oh. Not not. with OJ. He's not here. Exercise. I. think that that would be the next step. Jamie bought OJ Simpson's golf clubs. after he This is like a childhood dream.

No, they were just for sale. I saw them. for sale. I said, "Why not?" They came. in. I wanted some big grips. Yeah. A. couple of our friends. What did uh Shane. get? Shane got a bunch of stuff. I. talked him into buying some stuff. Yeah. He got like scarfves and ties. He bought. a bunch of ties, I think. Scarfves, too. Okay. He bought a trophy. A trophy and a. Bill Clinton signed photo. And he spent. thousands of dollars. What was this? Was. this some sort of OJ Simpson auction? Sounds like an estate sale. Yeah. Yeah. I see. You know, he's dead now, so you. can get his stuff right for nothing.

Pennies on the dollar. Well, it's I. mean, only people like Jamie and J are. dumb enough to buy. It's like it's like. for a goof. It's one of those things. like you're either getting it for a goof. or you're a very dark person. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. I wouldn't want to. own it even for a goof. Like if I found. a OJ played pool, I wouldn't want his. clue his queue. There was there cues? No, there wasn't. There was a weird. notebook that Robert Kardashian had like. handwritten stuff to him. Blood. splatter. I was like, whoa, that might. be interesting. But it's taking a.

vicious turn, Joe, already. Yeah, that's. a dark story. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And you. only know the surface of it. Well, it's. dark in both ways. It's also dark and. planted evidence. You know, there was. blood at the scene of the CL the crime. that had preservative in it. Allegedly, supposedly, according to Robert. Kardashian, and according to, I believe. the forensic scientists when they. analyzed it, it matched OJ's blood, but. they had to draw blood from OJ in order. to determine whether or not it was his. blood that was at the scene of the.

crime. And some of the blood found at. the scene of the crime had that. preservative in it that they use. They. were sloppy in the 90s, you know, compared to now. Well, there was no DNA. evidence back then. You know, people. were cops were there. There's always. going to be a certain percentage of cops. that just want to convict somebody. regardless of the evidence. And if. there's, you know, in their mind, if. they believe someone's guilty, they'll. do whatever they they can, including. planting evidence. I guess at least.

that's allegedly. I don't not that I. don't think he did it. I definitely. think he did it. But I also think the. cops planted evidence, which is probably. at least partially why he got off, you. know. I think the big reason why he got. off was Rodney King. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Have you gone into the. whole George Floyd story at all? Have. you ever like looked at like what they. actually did to him for It's a. combination of things. Like what the cop.

did was horrible, but also he was dying. Mhm. You know, like most people probably. like if they did that to you, you. probably would have lived. You know, that guy had an enlarged car. He was. up. But that cop did lean on his. neck, which is always interesting to see. people try to minimize that, you know. I'm I'm always like, you got to be able. to just say what it is. Well, a. situation can be ugly in a multitude of. ways. Yes. Right. That's when things get.

well. That's when it's very difficult to. pick your moral pathway forward. All. your choices are not good. Yes. Which is. oftentimes the case when it comes to. conflicts, right? Yes. Conflicts are. very complicated and there and people. want it to be binary. They want there to. be a good guy and a bad guy and that's. often times not really the case. Well, it's hard hard to organize yourself for. combat unless you are quite convinced. that you're the good guy. So, there's a. default to that dichotomy that's a.

necessary part of well, even standing. your own ground, right? because. otherwise you get demoralized. And so I. suppose people well when they're. threatened they default to a simple. narrative and because that's you can't. defend yourself in some ways. It's it's. very hard to defend yourself especially. physically or militarily without a. pretty cut and dried narrative. Well, especially like military operatives, you. know, you have to have a very your your. life and the people that you're with, their life depends on you not having any. confusion about whether or not it's.

morally correct to be doing what you're. doing. That's why they like to break it. down to kill bad dudes. You know, kill. bad dudes, right? Real simple. Let's go. They tell us what to do, we do it, which. is what you want to stay alive, you want. your teammates to stay alive, that's. what you have to do. Yeah. Well, you. never know when doubt will cause a. fraction of a second difference in. reaction time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's always the thing with physical. altercations with people, too. You know, often times people get sucked into these.

things where they're not sure whether to. act or not act, and that's when they get. in trouble, right? You know, right? That's probably true in life. You don't. want to oversimplify things, too. But. once you've made a decision, well, that's when it's necessary to put doubts. behind you because otherwise you just. act in half measures. Yeah. And often. times you have to have done the wrong. thing before like like failed to act or. hesitated to act and it cost you and. then you have to learn that lesson. It's. very difficult to like know that without.

experiencing mistakes, you know, you. have to you have to have failed to act. and then realize, oh, I should have done. something there. Yeah. Well, that's I. think that's partly too one of the. things that I often faced in my clinical. practice and with the students that I. mentored was this confusion about. acting. I don't know what to do. So, what should I do? Well, nothing. I'll. wait around until I figure out what to. do. It's like no, you should put. together a bad plan and you should.

implement it because even if you fail in. the implementation, you'll gather. information and then you can rectify the. plan. And. so staying in that malaise until you. know what to do makes you get older and. more miserable and you gather no. information along the way. A bad plan is. a good idea. best. You know, any plan is. better than none. That's a good rule of. thumb. And a bad. plan, a bad plan can be incrementally.

improved. Yeah. Right. With experience. Right. He who hesitates is lost. Yeah. Yeah. That's really difficult for young. people. I think more so today than ever. at any time in history because the. distractions are so many and they're so. engrossing. You know, if you get out of. high school, you don't know what to do, and then you start playing video games. and you're on social media, a day can. slip by like that. Yeah. A day becomes a. week, becomes a month, becomes a year,

and before you know it, you're 30 and. you haven't done And that's really. common. That's really common today. And. I don't think we can ignore those. factors, the factors of just engrossing. distractions. Yeah. Well, in the. algorithms optimized for short-term. attention. Mhm. So, you know, it's a. weird thing a because you could imagine. that you would want a machine that. offers you what you want, right? Because. you want ads that are targeted to you. because you want to see a bunch of ads. that aren't relevant to you now and then.

because maybe you'll learn something and. content. Well, why not have a machine. shovel the same sort of things that you. are interested in at you? That's a kind. of curation. The problem comes and we. haven't figured this out at all. technically and probably not. psychologically. The problem comes in. time frame, right? Because there's a big. difference between what you might be. interested in if you were diligently. striving towards a long-term goal that. required conscientiousness and what's.

going to attract your attention right. now, this moment. And the thing about. the algorithms is that they maximize for. short-term attention. And that's a so. basically they're ma they're actually. optimizing for hedonism. Yeah. And and. and then you might say, well, so what? Because you're getting what you want. Well, the problem with short-term. impulsive hedenism is it doesn't play. out well over any reasonable time span. Yeah. So that's why you have to mature, which is painful and annoying, but. absolutely necessary and much better.

than the alternative. The alternative is. exactly what that's Peter Pan, right? Yeah. 30-year-old. I still haven't grown. up. And yeah, I'm a little past my uh. shelf life now, too. I think people are. afraid of losing fun. They think that. when you grow up, you lose fun. But it's. silly. It's not true. You can grow up. and still have fun. You know, you just. have to you have to have discipline and. prioritize your time. Like, well, that's.

why Christ says to people that they have. to become as little children, not stay, right? You have to rediscover that, right? Rediscover the joy of it. Yeah. But also, well, kids are good for that, too, aren't they? Because they teach you. that again. You look at the world. through eyes of memory by the time. you're an adult. So, the world loses its. freshness. That's part of the world. loses its freshness because you see your. memories instead of the world. And then. kids come along and you think, "Oh, oh. yeah, that's really actually quite. interesting." And they're so compelled.

by everything because their perceptions. are so fresh that they share that with. you and that can help reawaken. that spirit of childhood play, let's. say. I've been thinking a lot about play. in the last year or so. Yeah. Well, I. spent a lot of time trying. to take apart the causes of like truly. pathological degeneration, right? on the. sadistic side, on the criminal side, on. the totalitarian side, very curious. about tyranny.

And I I I it was very difficult for me. to conceptualize the opposite of that as. cleanly as I could characterize its. presence. Like what's the opposite of. tyranny? It's not freedom, by the way. It's certainly not anarchctic freedom. It's not hedonistic freedom. Benevolence. I think it's play. Play. I. think it's play. Right. Yeah. Well, that. makes sense. Well, the the developmental. psychologist Jean Pia, one of the things. he pointed out was.

that play, so let's say play is the. foundation of micro community, right? When you're a little kid, you you play a. game with another kid and then if that. works well, you inhabit a little diatic. community. You're both in it together. And then if it really works, you. replicate that across time and that. gives you a friend. But there's play is. a very interesting it's very interesting. psychologically and psychobbiologically. because it has to be entered. involuntarily. You can't force someone.

to play and it's. also motivationally fragile. So mammals have a play circuit and it. can be disrupted by pretty much any. other motivational or emotional circuit. So the circumstances have to be set up. properly. like the walled garden, you. know that idea. The walled garden is a. place that play can take place like. eternally so to speak. And and because. it has to be undertaken voluntarily, it's the opposite of tyranny. And I like.

my wife and I have really started to. apply this in our marriage more. consciously. you know, once once I'd. figured out this relationship because. I've been lecturing to people for a long. time about how to conduct themselves in. life so they don't become a tyrant or a. handmaidaden to the tyrants, right? A. silent handmaiden to the tyrants, let's. say. And aiming at play, you know, when. we walked in here today, one of the. things we said was, "Let's have some. fun." You know, and I've been thinking.

this this morning, too, about what. attitude I should take coming in to talk. to you. And there isn't a better. attitude. There isn't a better attitude. than. play. And so, and I think it is because. it's the. antithesis. It's the antithesis of. tyranny in particular. And then you were. talked more about mature play. And. that's that good. You know, that also. makes sense. This is the issue with the. idea that adulthood isn't any fun. It's. like, well, do you want to play a simple.

game or do you want to play a really. sophisticated game really well? Now, you. that's going to require some discipline. and some training and some maturation, but the payoff is much higher. That's. good way to conceptualize marriage. The. highs are higher when you're successful. Well, and and also the the people who. have the most sex now are religious. married couples. Really? Yeah. I know. Isn't that funny? Which religion? like, "Yeah, good good question, Joe. Good. question." Well, I guess in the West.

that would obviously be Christianity. But but but it's an but it's an. interesting case example of the sorts of. things we're talking about because you. can imagine at the dawn of the sexual. revolution when the birth control pill. became prevalent that the last. hypothesis anyone would have possibly. generated was that the cascading. consequences of that over 50 years would. be well radical increase in pornography. use because sex has been made less. dangerous by the pill and that the. people who are having the most sex would.

be religious married couples. Right. But. is that true? Because like pornography. essentially was very difficult to. acquire before the birth control pill. was invented. True. True. You used to. have to go somewhere to get the. pornography. Isn't part of the excess. use of pornography just the access is so. instantaneous now? Oh, definitely. But. you could imagine too that you might. have hypothesized that if the birth. control pill took the threat out of sex. that pornography would be less. necessary, but that didn't seem to work. out, right? So it's certainly the.

availability is Yeah. We would never. know though because the the the birth. control was when was it. 1960 something? That's really when it. started somewhere around. Yeah. When it. started to to to ramp up, let's say. It's so crazy because it completely. changed the the dynamic. women could. have sex for recreation with people that. they didn't even know and not have any. consequences in terms of like having to. carry that person's child. Whereas that.

was always a giant fear. If you're a. woman in the back of your head, every. time you have sex, you possibly could be. taking care of a child for the next 18. plus years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that every. time. Right. took this thing. This is a. consequential thing where with a guy, it's like you have this biological. imperative to spread your seed, but. you're not thinking about making babies, right? You're thinking about sexual. activity. When a guy's having sex, he's. not thinking, "I can't wait to make a. baby." You're just thinking, "Boy, sex. is going to be great. I'm excited. Oh,

boy, that's fun." You're not thinking, "I'm making a kid." Because that would. make you hesitant. And nature is not. interested in hesitation. Nature is. like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Let's. just make you dumb as for about 20. minutes and focus on one goal." So, why. did you get. married? Well, I love my wife. She. wanted to get married. We had a a child. It seemed like a good thing to do. It's. like at a certain point in.

time, making a baby is more of a. commitment than getting married. You. made a life, you know, like the. commitment of getting married seemed. Right. Right. Of course. But it's also. But why did you stay committed then. before the marriage once you had a. child? I just said I do. I love her. It's a thing to do. It's. a life and raising a child became. everything. It it becomes it becomes a. very different thing, right? I think I.

have a lot of friends who don't have. kids and I don't I'm not the type of. person that thinks everyone should have. a kid. You know, I know a lot of people. with kids that do say that. I don't. think everyone should have a kid. I. think you should do whatever you want. I. don't know how your brain works. I. assume your brain works along similar. lines with me. But there's a thing that. happens when you Scary thought, Joel. Well, similar lines. Similar. I think we. all share similar similar. lines. There's an empathy that comes. from having a child that's so different.

and an understanding that we are all. babies that grew up. We all start off as. these bundles of potential and genetics. and then we're influenced by so many. different things or so many different. factors. But I used to think of people. as being grown up all the time. And then. when I had kids, I was. like, we're all just babies. We're all. just babies that have just been alive. for a long time. You know, everyone.

started out as a baby. And it just. profoundly changed the way I interact. with people. The amount of compassion I. have for people, the amount of charity. that I have for people, the charitable. way in which I think about them when. they do something or they say something, I give people the benefit of the doubt. way more. And Dave Chappelle said this. to me once at the comedy store and it. was very profound. He said, "Having. children didn't just change the amount. of love I have. It changed my capacity. for.

love." And I was like, "Oo, that's it. You just nailed it. You just nailed it.". You know, cuz. there's Well, there's private moments. when you talk to people about their. children, about having children, and. what that's like. It's a very. psychedelic experience. That would be. another reason why the family with. children is the foundation of the. community. Has to be the foundation of. the community. I mean, it's kind of. obvious from a biological perspective. Let's say no children, no community. But.

there's no reason to assume that you. wouldn't get radically better at. something with necessity and practice. And if you're practicing loving your. infant and your child, well, why. wouldn't that generalize? Why would that. capacity develop? I want it's not like a. practice. It's like an. overwhelming desire that comes about. like the love you have for your your. child is like it's not like anything. else. It's very different. It's very My. friend Jim Brewer said this once. He.

said uh when I had a child, that's when. I really understood murder. I really. understood like my capacity to defend my. child is like I never understood like. how could somebody kill somebody before? story was like, "Oh, now I get it. Now I. get it." And you know that's real too. And that's also tribal, right? So it's. not just your child. It's the child of. everyone around you in your ch in your. tribe. And then you think that you're. being invaded by an oncoming tribe. And.

genetics and history dictates you have. to be insanely ruthless to fight off. that tribe. There's no other way for. survival, which is really wild, right? Because those people have that same. feeling towards their children. It's. like that sting line. If the Russians. love their children, too. This episode. is brought to you by Paleo Valley. Are. you looking for a great tasting snack. that is absolutely proteinpacked? Paleo. Valley's meat sticks are what you're.

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Valley stands by their quality. Visit. paleo. valley.com/rogan and use the promo code. roan to get 20% off your first order. So. that that that love that you talk about. with regard to your wife, you know, I I. I'd asked I asked you a little bit about. that. It's. like I've talked to people who have they. can't understand how someone could be. with the same woman indefinitely. Let's. say these are people who usually haven't.

been able to establish that within their. own life. And of course the price you. pay assuming it's a price for forgoing. all others is that well that that that's. exactly it. It's a major sacrifice. And. so what do you think what role do you. think that love plays? Like how do you. conceptualize the relationship between. that love that you described and that. willingness to stay in a permanent. relationship and.

that and the willingness also to not. pursue any other women? H how do you how. do you understand how does that make. itself manifest in your life? I mean I I. presume that you I'm I presume that you. know you had opportunities of all sorts. I presume you do as well. in principle. I suppose they don't seem. to come to me professor type character. Back in the day guys like you would be. banging their grad students. Not guys. like you but guys in your position.

Wasn't that always a thing? This is. fascinating aspect of they seem to shut. that off pretty much at the beginning. Well, they they seem to have completely. stopped that. Like if you go back to. Fineman and Oppenheimer and famous. famous scientists were notoriously. playboys, which is really interesting. because it's like these wild innovative. people were essentially like. intellectual rock stars, right? And then.

somehow or another that just got. stopped. Like if you were a professor in. the 1960s, like the the girls would be. wooing the professor. They would be. excited. These 22-year-old graduate. students would be so excited to be. talking to this like incredibly famous. intellectual. and they. all, you know, were ladies men. Like. Fineman was like famous for chasing. skirts. That was like part of the thing. He does a lot of math and chases skirts, you know.

that is a a giant distraction to people. that are trying to get things done in. life. Um, and it's also a distraction. from your own personal development, I. think. I think you could be with the. wrong person and want to be with other. people and that makes sense. But really. what that is is you should not be with. that person anymore, which is. unfortunately the case. Like there's a. lot of guys who wind up with really hot. women who are out of their mind. and a lot of women who wind up with.

really hot men who are not what they. thought they were going to be, you know? And if you find yourself in this. situation where you're this with this. pathological person and you're trying to. make it work and you realize at a. certain point in time like I'm not going. to make it work like this is you have to. be able to just like jump ship. That's. why people are hesitant to get married. That's what what really dangerous about. marriage. It's not like being with one. person you really love being with. Like. I really love being with my wife. She's.

fun. Like we go we have date nights all. the time. We have a lot of fun, you. know? We really do. It's enjoyable. How did you decide to set up date. nights? How did you go about that? I. mean, I know that's personal, but and I. don't want all the gory details. Let's. say I know it's really simple. We just. enjoy hanging out together. We have a. lot of laughs. And so we just said like. it's kind of important because I'm so. busy that we schedule time. that's just unavoidable like like this. is what we're doing. We're going to do.

this and then we do it with Tammy too. Yeah. We've done that for like 30 years. I think most most married couples will. tell you that that's important. Most. married couples tell you that that's. that's kind of the secret. And it's the. secret is like it's also the best thing. as well as being the secret. Yeah. It's. fun. It's fun. Like if the person that. you're with is fun. That's the real. problem is is that sometimes people just. they pick people that are hot. That's. it. You know, hot and willing and nice. enough. Nice enough to be around. Then.

you deal with all the other crazy. nonsense. And you're you're setting. yourself up with I've had many friends. ruin their lives and then they. go through divorces. And you've said. this best that one of the things that. women are very good at is reputation. destruction. I have seen that happen. So. imagine you are legally entangled with. someone who at one point in time you. loved intimately and now that person is.

trying to destroy every aspect of your. life and you have to pay for their. lawyers. So you have to pay for the. general of the army that's trying to. destroy your kingdom. And I've seen this. happen to many of my friends and that is. why people are afraid of marriage. That's why people are afraid of. commitment because the disastrous. implications of like what can happen if. it goes sideways like what can happen if. you wind up hating each other and what. can happen if you just lie to yourself.

and you trick you. like well some of the hesit hesitation. that I had um for getting married is. most of my friends that got married when. I was young all went through horrible. divorces when I was on news radio Dave. Foley Steven Root and um Phil Hartman. were all going through it. All going. through it in different levels of. psychosis. Obviously, Phil Hartman's. being the worst cuz his wife shot him. when he was leaving her. By the way, he.

decided to leave her and he had tried to. leave her a few times and she shot him. in his sleep and then she shot herself. Is a horrible, horrible story. But. Steven Root went through it and they, you know, they'd confide in me. I'd be. like, "Oh, Jesus Christ. the amount of money these women were. trying to get from them when they knew. that they couldn't afford this. So, one. of the dirty tricks that will happen uh. with uh divorce lawyers, with um people. that are on sitcoms is when you get on a. sitcom, if you're an actor and you get.

on a sitcom, it is the most stable job, the greatest job in show business for a. lot of them because you're going to get. a steady check. You're gonna do 24, maybe 26 episodes a year. You're making. more money than you've ever made in your. whole life. But then you get divorced. So what happens is it gets set up where. your ex-wife wants a percentage of what.

you're making at this very unrealistic. level where you're never going to. achieve this again. And for Dave Foley, it was so bad that at one point in time, I don't believe he was allowed to go. back to Canada. I don't know if that's. changed, but the the judge literally. told him when he told the judge like, "I. don't have that kind of money anymore. I. don't have the potential for earning." I. was on a hit sitcom, like not even a hit. sitcom, but I was on a sitcom on NBC, paid a lot of money, and that was the. only time I made that kind of money. The. judge said to him, "Your obligation to. pay has no relation to your ability to.

pay.". That's Canadian judges for you. Just. insane. And you know he those are words. you never those are words you never want. to hear even once in your life. I love. him. So I was going through this pain. not like he was but just like oh my god. oh my god. So these three people that I. was very close to. And then most of the. other people that I knew you know I knew. so many people. Fortunately my mother. and my stepfather have a great.

relationship and they have for a long. time. So I had that modeled like they. were always very close and they didn't. fight which is really nice. It was. really nice to have that as a model you. know like that where I realized okay. it's not everybody's not at each other's. throats all the time and some people. actually do enjoy spending time. together. you know, Tammy and I on on. the tour, she started. to introduce me um two years ago and to. talk about some of the things we're.

doing uh in the family, some of our. family business, talk about Peterson. Academy, talk about essay and so she'd. go out on the stage and was that the. first time she had ever gone on stage in. front of you do enormous crowds. Yeah. Well, so so first of all, she did that. and then we replaced the the business. discussion because we were just doing an. update about the family, you know, and. so she'd do that. We replaced that with. ads and then she started to talk. She. she'd talked about the rules, say in 12. rules for life or some of the religious.

things I've been dealing with lately. And she'd relate that to something in. her own life. And then she does the Q&A. at the end of the lecture. And and part. of that was just she was along with me. And part of that was Michaela was. introducing me for a while and then had. to go back to her work. And so we. slotted Tammy in because it seemed like. a good business decision. But one of the. things we figured out very quickly that. was really a shock to us was. that people really liked especially the. Q&As's when because what people will.

offer their questions electronically on. this platform called Slido which is a. very good platform for such things and. then Tammy would they could upvote the. questions and then Tammy would sort them. and ask me questions kind of from the. top down that were thematically relevant. to the lecture that I had given. But we found very quickly that people. really liked that because they hadn't. seen a couple engage in civilized. discussion ever. Seriously, like it was.

really out there. It was really. shocking, Joe. Like, you know, I was. shocked when I first started touring by. how demoralized people were. Like that. really that was really striking and. painful to see that on such a mass. scale. And then also to see how little. encouragement it took to have a really. major effect. I mean there's a positive. aspect to that too, but there's also a. tragic aspect. It's like you mean you. just need to have some encouragement and.

that was enough and you never got that. like even once. That's rough when you. see that in thousands of people, right? And it was the same thing. We found it. was the same thing with regards to. seeing a functional couple at least even. that model because you know Tammy asks. me questions and she thinks about the. questions and then sometimes she. comments but not that much but she. actually listens to the answers and she. wants to hear the answer and so and that. dynamic is being played out on stage and.

people found that very heartening and. well that shows you well you said you. know yourself and this is why I brought. it up because you had the example from. your from your stepfather and your mom. of this long-term relationship that. worked. I mean, how the hell do you. orient yourself if you you haven't seen. that anywhere, right? You and then you. you consider relationships just like all. the bad ones and like you're going to be. burdened and locked into that. Did you. ever see that video where Alec Baldwin. and his wife are on the camp on uh red.

carpet and they're being interviewed and. they're asking them questions and the. wife starts talking and Alex chimes in. about something and she said, "You're. not talking. I'm talking. When I'm. talking, you're not talking on camera.". And you watch this, you're like, "Yo, that's what everyone's scared of, right? That's what. every tyranny the tyranny of being. trapped in a relationship like that. It's like.

and sometimes one person is so. overbearing that the other person just. sort of submits to it, right? And then. you're just like, I don't even want to I. don't want to fight. I don't want to. deal with this. I don't want to deal. with this. And so then you're just. trapped and this person's insulting you. and humiliating you publicly. That was. the case with Phil Hartman. I got to see. that. We would uh all go like we went to. a party once and I remember she was. talking about exboyfriends that she. loves pickup trucks because her. ex-boyfriends had pickup trucks and they.

would climb into the back of these. pickup trucks and I was like what the. But she was doing it on purpose to. like make him squirm and make him. uncomfortable. And she would say things. like talk about how he's old. Oh, he's. old. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't. like to do any. It was just it was just. public humiliation in front of friends. where you're in this like arena where. you he can't say anything. He can't just. go what the are you talking about? Like why are you talking to me like. that? Like why are we doing this? He. can't do that because he's public and.

he's out with us. Maybe he should do it. anyways. Probably should do it anyways. Yeah. we're all out and you know Phil. was all about like appearances, how. things one of the things that he was. afraid of with getting married was that. he was just starting to break into films. and a lot of the films that he was doing. were very like familyfriendly films and. it was it helped that he was a family. man you know if he was right so he had. he had an act he had to sustain too he. had an image right and this was critical. in Hollywood like they had ideas of who.

you were okay you're a family man. Okay. Good, good, good. And you're the So, if. you have this radical change in your. life where no longer you a family man, and if you want to be honest about it. and you want to say, I I was in a toxic. relationship and some of it was me and. some of it was her and this is what. happened. Like, whoa, now you're opening. up the world to this big can of worms. Better to keep that can sealed. Yeah. Well, it's generally better not to have. your your fights in public. And it's. certainly better. You know, I've been.

I've been thinking about this. commandment to honor your mother and. father. And I've been thinking about. what that means. I read this book called. Angelus Ashes by Frank McCort. And Frank. had a really alcoholic father. Like like. an Irish alcoholic father back in the. 40s. Oh yeah. He drank every scent the. family had. And they they lived in. terrible poverty and his sister died and. like it was rough. But he said his. father was often sober in the morning.

and and he established a relationship. with like good morning sober father and. kind of put alcoholic drunken nighttime. father in a different bin and he could. he could get the benefit of having a. father in consequence of that. And that. honoring that's also something that you. want to do within a marriage, right? Because your wife is your friend and. your lover, but she's also your wife and. and you're her husband. And that means. that a part of keeping that marriage.

working is honor. And part of the honor. is that you don't do that sort of thing. in public, right? Humiliate fight. Well, that's also in. some ways independent. In a way, it's. independent of who your wife or husband. is. It's like, you know, you could. imagine two people fighting in public. and one of them or both of them really. deserving to have that fight as people. But then to keep the marriage intact, you have to remember, well, this is my.

wife. She's not just my friend. She's. not just someone I know. She's my wife. And we shouldn't be doing primate. dominance hierarchy maneuvering in. public. We shouldn't be competing for. power because that's going to destroy. the marriage. Yeah. And so that's that. that's that's part of that honoring I. think is to to remember the role and to. keep it well sacred is really. sacrosanked. Here's another one. Don't. ever insult each other even though you. want to like you you want to like be.

mean sometimes like people get mean to. you, you want to be mean back. I don't. do that with my friends so I don't do. that with anyone else. I don't want to. do that. That's why I don't do it. online. I don't get involved in these. like hissy pissy fits online, particularly on Twitter. I just don't. think the prime place for such things. That's all it is. First of all, again, as someone who looks at everyone like a. child or like a baby, I I don't I'm not.

angry that people do that. I understand. the appeal of it. If I was 15 and. Twitter was around, I would be tweeting. at every celebrity saying, "You're a loser. Jump in front of a. bus." I would say things just to try to. get a reaction out of them. I think a. lot of kids do. Um I think a lot of. people don't feel like they have a voice. and one way to be heard is to be. insulting and one way to hurt is to be. negative. If you look at. the majority of discourse on social.

media in regards to hot button issues, it's disrespectful. It's contentious. It's shitty and insulting. And I've. decided like over time in my life to not. do that. I don't want to do that. I'm. not interested. I'm not interested in. that. I'm not interested in that kind of. conflict. Like I see real conflict all. the time as a an MMA commentator. You. know, I see the most violent legal.

conflict other than war all the time. It's a that's conflict. That's like real. conflict and resolution and you know. purposeful agreed upon. conflict like regular like back and. forth and sol. Wouldn't it be better to. figure out what you agree and disagree. on and why and and talk? Like why can't. we all figure out how to do that? That. should be a discipline you learn at an. early age. Most of the issues that.

people have, if the person comes at you. insulting and aggressive, either that. person is ignorant or they're playing a. game, okay? And the game is to get your. emotions up, to get you reactive and to. be reacting to them instead of acting. The game is like if someone's. hyperaggressive in a fight, the game is. to put you on the defensive so that they. don't like the best defense is a good. offense. You learn that early on in. fighting. So you learn that you can be.

very offensive and then the person never. has a chance to get their game going. That's the case with conversations too. So this is like there's a gamesmanship. to this kind of communication where it's. not just communicating. It's. communicating but it's essentially. intellectual oneupsmanship and sparring. You're sparring. You're scoring points. You're trying to dunk on each. other. And I get that. I've done that. before. I've engaged in it. It's never. satisfying. It always feels gross. Even.

if you win, it's gross. Like I've said. this before, like even like publicly. things that I've I felt like I had to do. like the Carlos Menia conflict that I. had way back in 2007 where accused him. of stealing material and it became this. viral video and then a bunch of other. comedians jumped in and we all agreed. there was a real problem. It was a real. problem because he was very famous and. he was being protected by these agencies. who were profiting off of him being. famous and they didn't want that train.

to stop. I still to this day wonder if I. would ever do that again because the. negativity that came my way from people. that were fans of his was so it's so. overwhelming if you're paying attention. to it's like what did I open up like gh. even though I knew it was necessary like. what and that is also why people are. negative because they want they want to. stop you from engaging in conflict. that's going to hurt them you know so. they try to hurt you as much as possible. so you're like hesitant to do it I don't. want to wait into those waters.

It's dangerous, filled with sharks. Um, well, you could imagine maybe I think. and I think this is worth delving into. in some depth. You could imagine that. there. are there's various ways of attaining. status, renown, reputation. Status isn't exactly the. right word because reputation is better. because you can have a reputation that. you deserve, right? And so people do. work for reputation and all things.

considered that's a good thing. Earned. reputation. Earned reputation. Earned. reputation. Earn truly unique where they. Jordan that guy that's a unique human. being and that's a real reputation. Right. Right. Okay. That's what people. want. Right. Right. And and it's also. there isn't anything more valuable that. you can have than that. Not even close. This is why by the way this is very. cool. Uh it's a bit of an aside, but it. makes it's worth bringing up. In the. gospels, Christ tells people to store up.

treasure in heaven where it doesn't. rust, where the thieves can't steal it. That's reputational treasure, right? So. if you So the idea is that if you. conduct yourself. impeccably, you'll develop a storehouse. of reputation that will withstand all. catastrophe. M nothing can it nothing. there's no place you can put your wealth. that's more effective than that it's the. least violatable place and that's right. it's it's right right and so but the.

problem is and this is a really tricky. problem and you're touching on it is. that the reputation game can be gamed. okay so when your reputation rise rises. your serotonin levels rise and that. makes you less sensitive to negative. emotion and more sensitive to positive. emotion So that's a really good deal. And what that also means is that there's. a high psychological benefit to status. increase, reputational increase, and a. real cost to reputational decrease.

That's partly why people don't like. losing face for example because their. emotions disregulate. Okay. So now the. best way to play that game is to. establish a genuine reputation. And the. best way to do that, you've done this by. the way. I figured out this year on my. lectures that I'm always trying to. answer a question on stage. So that's a. quest and I'm bringing the audience. along on a quest and it's a real quest. because I'm actually trying to figure. something out and I do that in real time. and that's a very different game. That's.

a very different conversational game. than the status battle game. Right? Because I could come on here. I don't. know if it would work, but I could come. on here and I could try to show that I. was smarter than Joe Rogan. Now, I've. watched you and that's a very difficult. thing to pull off. But hypothetically, that could be my aim and I could play. gotcha questions and I could lead you. into the problem. The problem is that. wouldn't work because I'm willing to. accept that you're smarter than me. First of all, like I talk to a lot of.

people that are smarter than me and I. like it. It's enjoyable. I don't ever. feel uncomfortable talking to people. that are smarter than me. I want to know. some things that they can tell me on. certain thing. I want to educate myself. I want to be I want to see how their. mind works. I want to be blown away. I. don't want to compete with them. intellectually. There's times in my life. where I would have fallen into that. trap. I think. it's Well, I think that's also what's. made you popular and a force for good is.

that you are on a quest and that quest. the consequence of that quest if. undertaken properly is reputational. enhancement. And people who can't or. won't do that, they default to power. games. And the part of the And that's a. very that's that's the default to power. But it's worsened with social media. Absolutely. Because if you're if if if. you meet someone and they're playing a. power game with you, you can just decide. not to have anything to do with them. anymore or you can put a stop to it if.

you need to. But on social media, you. can't because they're distant from you. And they're often also anonymous. And so. they can play power games to enhance. their reputational status falsely with. no consequences. And the social media is. rife with that. And it's really a. problem. Like I think that. virtualization has enabled the. psychopaths. Without a doubt. Yeah. Well, without a doubt. That's a terrible. thing because the psychopathic types, they're always the death of everything.

Like I'm seeing this come up on the. right now. So imagine imagine this. I've. been working on a new a new theory of. political psychopathology and I like it. quite a lot. Is this where the term the. woke right comes in? Yeah. Well, Lindsay. is pointing at that, but he hasn't got. he hasn't got the diagnosis exactly. right. He So it isn't woke. That's not. the issue. It's not exactly one level. What they're talking about is like. similar types of behavior. He is talking. about that. Yeah. No point. woke just. lets you clarify in your head. Oh, it's.

like that. Yeah. But the problem is it's. like Antifa. Yeah. Ex. Absolutely. But. the problem is is that that argument is. predicated on the claim that the ideas. are the problem. Like the woke ideas, for example, on the right or the left. But that's not the problem. The problem. is that four to 5% of the population. something like that. is cluster B that's the DSM5 terms. histrionic narcissistic antisocial.

psychopathic or they have and they have. dark tetrad traits they're machavelian. they're sadistic that's about 4% okay so. the question is how do these people. maneuver and the answer is they go to. where the power is and they adopt those. ideas and they put themselves even on. the forefront of that. But the ideas are. completely irrelevant. All they're doing. is they're the Pharisees. They're the. modern version of the Pharisees. They're. the people who use God's name in vain, right? Is they proclaim moral virtue.

Doesn't matter whether it's right or. left or Christian or Jewish or Islam. They invade the idea space and then they. use that those ideas as false weapons to. advance their narcissistic advantage. Yes. And so then you have the problem. and the right's going to face this more. and more particularly because the left. had to face it when they were in powers. Yes. How do you identify the. psychopathic parasites 4% of the. population who are clothed in your.

clothing and waving your flags but who. are who are only in it for narcissistic. benefit. You know the people who studied. the dark triad. These were people who. originally studied psychopaths and they. moved into ordinary personality so to. speak on the fringes. They showed that. the noncriminal psychopaths, so the. fringe cases are machavelian. They use. their language to manipulate. They're. narcissistic. They want. unearned reputation. That's what a.

narcissist wants. And they're. psychopathic, which makes them predators. or parasites. Okay, that's pretty bad, those three things. But they had to. expand the nomenclature after a while. because they found that they were also. sadistic, which implied that if you're. Machavelian and narcissistic and. psychopathic, you develop a sufficiently. bad view of your fellow man that their. undeserved pain is a source of pleasure. to you. And that's that's what's being. enabled online. Yes. See, because we've.

evolved real specific mechanisms to keep. such things under control in. face-to-face interaction. Lack of. anonymity, for example, within a. community. Psychopaths in the real. world, they wander. They have to move. from place to place because people who. figure out who they are and they're held. responsible. They're particularly held. responsible by men. But online, they. escape from that. They escape from that. protective they escape from that con. system of constraints and they have free.

reign and they can find other people. like them very rapidly and they can gang. together and so this is like I can. really see this starting to happen on. the right like I've been tracking. psychopathic behavior on the right for. probably four years something like that. especially on the anti-semitic side. because that's really where it reared. its head first and why is that there's. Nothing more annoying than a successful. minority. Right. Now, that's part of it. I I'm.

going to here. I might as well get. myself in trouble right away, too. Yeah, for sure. Well, this is a very real. subject. Well, so yeah, it's a Yeah, it's a real terrible subject. It's. interesting because if you don't. criticize it enough, you're compromised. If you if you criticize, you know, it's. like when it comes to anti-semitism, like it's one of those things where you. can't. separate a a it's a religion and it's.

also a race and it's also a government. That's where things get weird. Right. Right. And and then there's also the. concept of intelligence agencies and. compromise that also gets attached to. it. the manipulation of world markets. and money and there's a lot to unpack. And then there's regular Jewish people. have nothing to do with that. Well, the. Jews too are they're very successful. Yeah. And so what you would expect from. a purely statistical point of view is. you'd expect them to be over represented. at the extreme. They're also a walled.

garden, right? Meaning meaning it's very. difficult to join. They don't proitize. They don't try to get you to join. And. they're all very tightly knit. They call. themselves the clan. They're all like. locked in the, you know, Jewish clan. Not not KKK. The problem with that term. has been compromised by the K cuc clan, you know, but I mean it as terms of. tribe, community. Yeah. Community. They're very tight-knit in that regard. You know, they stick together. And if. you understand the history obviously of.

Nazi Germany and of persecution in. Eastern Europe, like Yeah. You have to. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Well, all these. complex things are multi-dimensional. I. mean, you're you're I I watched your. whole conversation with Douglas and I. thought you guys did a very credible. job, all three of you, of navigating. unbelievably choppy waters. So, that's. the first thing I'd like to say because. one of the things I was trying to figure. out when I was watching that is do I. think I could have done a better job of. than of any of you? And I certainly.

didn't walk away from it with that idea. in mind. But then underneath all that, I. thought there's really a there's a. really unbelievably tricky problem here. And I think that's why it's made it it. it poked up into well, you also set that. conversation up, but it it poked up and. made itself manifest in that. conversation. And the issue is how do. you identify the psychopathic. pretenders? And it's even worse now. And. and then make a barrier right now. The. right was calling for the left to do.

that for decades and they didn't and. they couldn't. And the left is not good. at drawing barriers, partly. temperamentally. The right is somewhat. better, but there's no shortage of. monstrosity there. And and so then the question is how do. you how do you draw the line? And that's. kind of what I was because I've been. watching these right-wing, they're not. right-wing, these psychopathic types. manipulate the edge of the conservative. movement for their own gain. And a lot.

of that's cloaked in anti-semitic guys. There's plenty of anti-semitism on the. left, too, by the way. So, it's not. unique to the right, but particularly. now. Yes. Yes. Yes. Particularly now. And so, you know, you've let your. curiosity guide you. Your curiosity and. your desire for knowledge, this quest, you've you've let that guide you as a. podcaster. And I'm, by the way, I'm. trying to work through exactly the same. sort of thing. Um, how do you. know given your rap radical increase in.

stature over the last 10 years? How do. you. know when your curiosity and even your. skepticism about the fact that things. aren't the way that people say they are? Because that's certainly been. demonstrated in the last 10 years. How. do you how should anyone decide what. guard rails to put up? Like what do you. look for? Do you do do you have a a. conceptual system worked out for that? Like in what what do you mean in what. way? Well, how do I look for in terms of.

people to talk to? Yeah. Yeah. Because. you have this insanely immense platform. and you're inviting people onto it and. you know, you said to Douglas and I know. this to be true that you're not really. thinking about the outcome exactly. You're thinking about this is an. interesting person to talk to and I'd. like to go on that quest. But then you. have the additional conundrum. We're. trying to work this out in the Daily. Wire side of things too. Not to say that. that's exactly the same situation. It's. like once you gain in reach and.

authority. then how do you know. that? How do you take great care that. the people you're talking to. aren't what would you say? eliciting or feeding a subculture. Yeah, that's right. That that hasn't got the. proper aims. Like I guess the legacy media probably.

worked that out by having people. mediators, right, and guests. And that. was also back when we could rely on the. structures of authority in some sense. to filter. And now we're in this helter. skelter world where everything is the. legacy media is the worst at that now. Yeah, I know. They're the worst at that. which is fascinating. You know, it. really is. It's really fascinating when. you lose faith in uh a New York Times. piece, you know, it's like you you go.

like, "Well, this is I know. this is I know what they're doing. I. know they're just this is editorial. bullshit." And that didn't used to be. the case, I don't think. No, they. didn't. But then I go back to like what. I learned about the Woodward, Bernstein, Nixon thing at Watergate that was all. essentially an intelligence operation. Have you ever looked into that? Bill. Murray on the podcast and Bill Murray. said one of the wildest things. He read. the first five pages of Bob Bob.

Woodward's biography on John Belalushi, Wired. He read the first five pages like. he goes, "Oh my god, they framed Nixon.". Oh, really? Wow. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Nothing. What they wrote about my friend. was so not true. It was so wildly off. He said John Belalushi was a. lightweight. John Belalooi should have a. couple of drinks and he'd be up. He wasn't like a big partyier. That time. he did that speedball. Probably the only. time he ever did it in his life. But. Woodward had him painted as this. maniacal off the rails just drug addled.

monster. And he knew that to not be. true. He was very close to Belushi for a. long time. And so he was like, "Oh my. god, they framed Nixon." Then when I. told him the whole story, you know, what. Tucker Carlson had told me about. Woodward being an intelligence asset and. then that was his first job ever as a. journalist was Watergate and that. there's FBI guys that were involved in. it and the breakin and the whole thing. was tried they tried to get Nixon out of. there. The most popular president in the.

history of the country in terms of the. vote and they were successful. They got. him out of there and it's. probably or likely because Nixon was. very concerned with who killed Kennedy. and he wanted to find out and he wanted. to get that information out and. apparently he had been talking about it. I know who did it and he was, you know, he didn't want it happening to him. obviously and he knew it could. If. you're a president, you know, a couple. of guys ago, you know, just most one of the most popular.

presidents, at least postumously popular. presidents, I know he's very polarizing. while he was in office, but was shot in. the head in the middle of Dallas. And. you think that the government might have. had something to do with it? Like that. could that could with your head. obviously, you know? Yeah. Well, there. and there's many things like that. I. mean, you saw the government website. that came up two days ago about CO. Yes. Okay. Wild. Wild to see that. That's for sure. What. are you supposed to do with that? All.

the things that have would have gotten. you fired if you were a professor and. you said them four years ago, you would. have 100% got fired for espousing any of. these ideas that turned out to be true. You would have gotten kicked off of. YouTube. you would have gotten, you. know, there was a lot there was a lot. going on there, you know, which is like. I feel so fortunate that right at the. height of COVID was also when I had gone. over to Spotify. Spotify is a Swedish.

company. They're it's different. They're. different. They don't they're much more. rational and they're not overwhelmed by. this identity politics and they. they aren't overwhelmed by our weird. political binary system of good guy bad. guy depending on which side you're on. And they were like like what are you. talking about? Like this is we don't we. don't censor our rappers. Also didn't. lock down. Yes, they didn't lock down.

They were also like we don't censor our. rappers. Like we don't tell like the rap. lyrics, some of my favorite rap lyrics. are horrendous, but it's just like my d. my favorite movies are Tarantino movies. The dialogue is horrendous. It doesn't. mean that these are horrendous people. that are putting together this. Tarantino is a wonderful guy. He's fun. to be around. He's great. I've had. dinner with him, brought him to the. comedy club. He's great. He's not a bad. person, but he is an artist and he's. creating this thing. And this thing is.

gonna show you aspects of humanity that. you know to be true but are horrific. It's the same with rap lyrics. It's the. same with a lot of things. And Spotify's. position was we're not censoring. That's. not what we're in the business of like. promoting art. Like we sell art and. we're not interested in censoring art. essentially. And turns out luckily we. were all right. We were all correct, you.

know, and now the government shows it on. their website, which is crazy. Have you seen it, Jamie? Yeah. Pull it. up because it's bananas. And look at. this lab leak. I know. I know. I know. By the way, um, you know, I I know that he would bring. up the vaccines when he was on his. rallies and people would boo when he was. on the campaign trail. People would boo. And I I think he was like confused by. that. I think he's a little.

I don't want to say he's out of touch, but there's too many things for him to. be thinking about for him to be paying. attention to what people really think. about the vaccines and vaccine injuries. and mandates and just the. psychological warfare that was played on. the American people. You remember that. very famous White House post that they. made? For the vaccinated, you've done. your job. But for the unvaccinated, you're looking forward to a winter of. severe illness and death and the.

hospitals that you will overwhelm. Like. that was the White House telling you. something when it was in omnicron by. that point, which was like a cold. Like. it was crazy. The deaths had dropped off. radically. But they were so in bed with. the pharmaceutical companies that they. were like, "You got to do it. You got to. get vaccinated. If you don't, you're. you're looking forward to death and. severe illness. Like, imagine this is. you're not basing this on real. statistics. You're not basing this on.

science. You're just basing this on this. control, this fear element that you're. trying to impose upon people. So, okay. So, that's that's an interesting point. there, too, that issue of control and. fear. You know, I started this I I was. part of a group that started this. organization in the UK called the. Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. We. had our second convention in November, which went very nicely, by the way. So, you're doing like a positive counter to. the World Economic. Yeah. Well, we have. some rules and one rule is you don't use.

force or fear, right? Use invitation. So, can I tell you a story about that? Please do. Please do. Okay. So, I've. been touring about this new book of. mine, right? We We Who Wrestle with God, and it's uh I've been lecturing about. lots of the things I know, but I've been. using biblical stories mostly to provide. an analytical frame because that's what. stories do. They provide a frame. And. there's a great story in the continuing.

Exodus story, the story of Moses and the. Israelites where Moses has led the his. people away from the tyrant and away. from their own slavery because there's a. dynamic in that story between those two. things. No tyrants without slaves or you. might say no tyrants without willing. slaves. And so the Israelites have to. get away from the tyrant, but then it's. across the Red Sea of chaos and blood. and into the desert for 40 years. You.

don't escape from the tyrant if you're a. slave without paying a price and maybe. for three generations. It's rough. So. Moses is trying to get these people to. stop being slaves and to take. responsibility. So they don't need a. tyrant. And so he's kind of got there. and they're on the edge of the promised. land, right? And so they're almost at the end of. their voyage and uh they run out of. water. They're still in the desert. They. run out of water and they get all whiny. and about the fact that they had. to go across the desert and that it was.

way better under the tyrant and that. Moses is nothing but a corrupt patriarch. and he's only power mad and they fment. some rebellion and anyways it's it's a. pretty ugly situation. And the. Israelites go to Moses and they say, "Look, we're really starving. We're. we're thirsting for water. We're going. to die. Do you think you can have a chat. with God? See if he'll do something. about this. And God tells. Moses to go to some rocks in the desert. and to ask them to bring water.

forth. And so he goes with his people to. these rocks and instead of asking, he. takes this staff of his. The staff is a. really important thing. It's like your. staff if you have an organization. Same. derivation, but it's also the magic wand. of Gandalf. It's the flag you plant in. new territory. It's the tree of life. It's the living tradition that has uh a. spirit inside it and that's a serpent. and that's the serpent that's eats all. the serpents of the Egyptian tyrants.

magic magicians. That's the staff. It's. his rod of his authority. And he instead. of asking the rocks, he hits them twice. with the with the staff. So he forces. them. And God tells him that in. consequence of that, number one, he's. going to die and number two, he's not. going to get to the promised land. Right. Right. Right. So there's this. insistence. It's really interesting. Well, it's it's a crucial insistence, and it's very important in this time, I.

think, to to understand what this means. So Moses is a leader. He's the. archetypal leader, and he realizes his. responsibility in the encounter with the. burning bush, which is something that. attracts his attention, that he takes. with great seriousness. And that. transforms him. And so then he becomes. the leader who stands up against the. tyrant and frees the slaves and takes. them through chaos into the desert. And. his temptation as leader is to use. force. So when he's a young man, for. example, he kills a Egyptian aristocrat.

who was tormenting a Hebrew slave and. that's why he has to leave Egypt. He's. tempted by power because he's a leader. And then at the end, even though he's. done all these things, he's he's been an. upstanding man and done gone beyond his. call of duty and he's right at the point. where he attains victory, right, to. enter the promised land. And he uses. force once when God tells him to use. invitation, to use his words, the logos, to use words, to use invitation. And. that's enough so that he's he's dead. So.

is his brother Aaron. That's his. political arm. And he doesn't enter the. promised land. And then in the gospels. of course Christ foregoes power. altogether. The temptation in the desert. one of the three temptations is the. temptation for use of power. So one of. the things that maybe we could conclude. from all this given the context of what. you said is that you can tell the. tyrants they use fear and compulsion and. they don't use invitation. So one of the. rules we put together for ark was.

invitation only play. We're going to do. this playfully. Yeah. And we're not. going to use force or fear ever. You. have to use invitation. And so I I don't. know what you think about that is a. distinguish imagine it's a. distinguishing it's the distinguishing. characteristic between the wannabe. tyrants and the true leaders. The true. leaders say here's an offer. Would you. accept this of your own free will? And. the tyrants say the apocalypse is coming. and everything and we we are allowed to.

do everything to forestall it. Right. Right. including control you and. everything that you do. That's the. problem. Yeah. Right. And that's how. they get people to fall in line. They. fall in line through fear. Yeah. Well, fear and force. It's like also, you. know, you have to do this because the. apocalypse is looming, which is always. in a way true. Always. There's always. Well, there's always an apocalypse of. one form or another looming. The. question is, what do you do about it? And terrifying people anywhere in the.

world right now, right? You you might be. experiencing the apocalypse right now if. you live in Gaza. Yeah. You might be. experiencing the apocalypse right now if. you're in Yemen, if you're a Houthi, right? The the end of the world is always. coming, right? And for you, for me, for Yeah. Right. So So you can always look into. the future and conjure up an apocalyptic. scenario. And maybe even that in itself. isn't a sin, although I think it is. There's another. But if you yet then.

turn to fear and compulsion as your. means of governance, then you're a. tyrant. I don't care what your excuse. is. It has to be invitational. That's. when it gets scary when you see. governments telling people that they. have to fall in line or these are. horrible consequences for you not. agreeing to what we're saying. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you don't do this, you're a part of the problem. Right. Exactly. Well, and if the apocalypse. that's generated in that way is of. sufficient magnitude, there's no limit. to the amount of power that can be. exerted because obviously the rationale.

is there. They have to do it, right? Like this is the rationale to stop. Trump, right? You're trying to stop. Hitler. Right. Right. Well, no matter. what circumstair, use whatever. Use whatever. This is one. of the things that worries me about. Canada at the moment. Now, I know when. we talked a couple of weeks ago, I. expressed my concern about what was. happening in Canada. Doesn't look good. Well, I read Carney's book, Values. I. read it twice and I understood it. And.

Carney says in that book, well, he says. he's he's an advocate of centralized. planning, ESG. He was a huge. ESG advocate. He organized many large. corporations to go down this um central. planning governance route because the. market wasn't pricing everything. properly. And so central planners had to. step in and Black Rockck and Vanguard. and places like that were big parts of. that. Don't know if they were directly. affected by Carney, but it's the same. thing. and they've stepped away from.

that and he's a big DEI advocate and. he's also a net zero advocate and Carney. says in his book this is a good example. of this and I think also a good example. of this kind of narcissism that we. talked about earlier. um every single financial decision that. every individual or organization makes. has to prioritize decarbonization above. all else or else and there will be many. he doesn't say casualties but he implies. that there'll be many there'll be many.

who pay a price along the way, but it's. necessary, you know, cuz you can't make. an omelette without breaking a few eggs. And then he says 75% of the world's. fossil fuels have to stay in the ground. And this is who Canadians are seriously. thinking about electing, right? Why does. he say the fossil fuels have to stay in. the ground? Too much carbon. Yeah. You. know the real problem with that is the. same problem with the COVID narrative is. that they don't allow any disscent. They. don't allow any data that conflicts with.

the narrative and they don't want to. look at any. possible like both of them are. complicated. They're not similar in a. lot but there are because they're. topdown tyrannical tools using fear and. compulsion. So they didn't in during the co times. nobody wanted to look at any alternative. treatments. They didn't want to look. at health metabolic health. They didn't. want to look at any factors other than.

vaccination and compliance with carbon. No one wants to look at I'm sure you saw. that Washington Post study of the last. was it 50 million years the graph that. shows uh the temperature of Earth. Have. you seen it? we're in a cooling period. And that was always what I mean during. the 1970s, Leonard Nemoy when he had. that in search of show, one of the. things that they covered was that we are. at the verge of an ice age and how. terrifying an ice age is. Yeah. Well, the the conclusion you draw about.

climate and carbon dioxide is entirely. dependent on where you put the origin. point of your graph. So if you go back. 150 years ago, carbon dioxide has. increased. If you go back 500 million. years ago, which is quite a lot longer, we're in a drought, like a serious. carbon dioxide drought, right? And also. carbon dioxide is the fuel of plants. Yes, they it turns out that they like. it. Well, you know, the glo you know the. global greening data. Well, when Yeah. Say it so people know it. Well, you.

know, one of the things I learned as a. scientist was that there's usually an. explanation or two that accounts for a. phenomenon so completely that almost. everything else is noise. Like the Maha. movement, make America healthy again. The fundamental issue is insulin. resistance. Like that's the fundamental. plague of say North America. And. everything else is noise. It's not. unimportant noise, but insulin. resistance is the major contributor. On.

the climate side, when I look at the. data, the thing that leaps out for me is. greening. It's like the planet is 20%. greener than it was 30 years ago. Okay, 20%. This is NASA data. I'm not. inventing this. Okay. And then the next. you think, oh, 20%. If 20% of the plants had vanished, you'd. be sure we'd heard about that. Yes. Okay. So and agricultural outputs got up. 13%. Now whether all that additional.

carbon dioxide is a function of human. activity that's still debatable doesn't. matter. There is an association between. the carbon dioxide re rise and the plant. propagation. Okay. It's it's it's even. more particular than that because a lot. of the greening has occurred in semierid. areas. So areas around deserts and the. reason for that is that if there's more. carbon dioxide, the plants can close. their breathing pores more and they. don't lose water. And so not only is. there 20% more vegetation, which is a.

lot. I think it's twice the area of the. United States that's greened. That's a. lot of green. And where our agricultural. production is more effective. And the. places that have greened were the very. places that the deserts were supposed to. expand into. And so, right, because. they've greened, they've shrunk, not. grown. Now, you know, you could say, well, that rate of change has its. problems. And, you know, rates of change. have their problems. But I don't see.

another data point that's anywhere near. as stunning as that. I think it's a. really important point what you said. that if we lost 20% of the plants, people would be freaking out. Oh my god. Well, and rightly so. rightly so, but. yet it's not even discussed because. again it's one of those things that. invades the narrative, right? It's one. of those pesky facts, those pesky truths. that gets in the way of the thing that. you're saying, well, the apocalypse is. coming. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. about the narrative is like, okay, so.

now we talked about the psychopaths who. manipulate belief systems for their own. advantage, right? The people who use. God's name in vain, the Pharisees who. want to dress in religious clothing and. obtain status and consequence, they're. Christ's number one enemies in the. gospels. By the way, those people, they're the ones who conspire to crucify. him, right? The religious pretenders. So, this has been going on for a very. long period of time. So the climate apocalypse narrative is.

perfectly situated to what would you say. to to serve the perspect to serve the. purposes of the narcissists, the. Mcavelians, the the psychopaths and the. sadists because it's a infinitely. expanding existential threat that can be. used as an excuse for anything. Yes. Right. And it also provides a perfect. cloak for any amount of power. maneuvering. It's like I want to make. your.

showerheads put out a needle spray so. that you're cold all the time while you. have a shower while you're doing. something you do every day that could. otherwise be highly enjoyable. Why do I. get to invade your life to that degree? Well, because the planet's at stake, Joe. And who are you to privilege your. shower comfort something that trivial. over the fate of the entire planet? Well, you can use that argument at every. single level. You know, Trump came out. with this executive statement just a few. days ago about showerheads. And.

everybody kind of laughed about that. And I thought, no, he has an eye for. petty tyranny, right? For petty tyranny. And there there's very little that's. more petty than Well, I think the. showerhead example is a perfect one. Yeah. And then you also think, look, if. they're willing to control your life at. that level of detail, what are they not. willing to control? It's like you're. concerned about my showerheads like. we're out of water, which we're not at. all. So, what won't you control? So, you. think, well, the psychopaths are edge.

cases. They'll move wherever the power. is. They find a narrative that can be. used to strike fear in the hearts of. people and to justify compulsion. They. ally themselves with that belief claim. and then they ratchet themselves up. status hierarchies without any. reputational validity riding on that. edge of fear and power. Right. Right. I. wrote an article, it hasn't been. published yet in the Telegraph because I.

got hell a lot after one of our. podcasts. You may know this, but the. climate change stuff. That's right. The. whole bloody transcript was sent to the. college as an indication that I was out. of my wheelhouse, you know, and maybe I. stepped a bit out of my wheelhouse when. we had that discussion cuz I'm not a. climate scientist, whatever the hell. that is, by the way, because you have to. know a lot to be a climate scientist and. an economist on top of that. So, today. I'm talking about something that's a lot. more psychological. The climate.

apocalypse narrative is a social. contagion that's driven by power mad. psychopaths who are hellbent on using. fear and compulsion to make sure. everyone steps in line so that they can. continue with their acquisition of. undeserved power. It's also effective. enough that the people that are. underneath the power comply and do the. job of the man for the man. Yeah. Well, that's the advantage of using fear and. compulsion, right? It's like well I have.

to go along with this because my leaders. who had built up a certain degree of. credibility are telling me that you know. the apocalypse is nigh and who am I to. well first of all question because god. there's a hard thing to figure out you. know what's the global effect of human. activity on the climate for the next. hundred years. Well good luck figuring. that out. But this is why making it more. psychological this time. It's like the. climate fluctuates and for complex. reasons, but that doesn't mean that you. get to look a 100 years into the future.

and you get to conjure up an apocalyptic. narrative and you get to say, "We're the. only people that can save you and you. get to say you have to change every. single thing you do in your life and. prioritize our concern above all else, including even the well-being of your. own children or the economic future of. the Africans, for example, who don't get. to use fossil fuels, right? You don't. get to do that. You don't get to do that. using fear and compulsion. Not only. that, it's being done by people who have. been wrong about everything every step.

of the way. Every step of the way. Yeah. Well, then they just play a slight of. hand game there, though. Okay, we got we. got the time frame wrong, Joe. It's not. 20 years. But it's not even 40 years. It's not even just climate change. It's. basically everything. Public health, agriculture, you name it. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Well, that's every. single thing. The water supply sets us. back into this conundrum that you and. Douglas and Dave were addressing. It's. like. okay two conundrums like three how do. you pursue your interest in a landscape. that's been shorn of reliable expert.

input right who do you rely on okay if. you don't know who to rely on like um. how do you keep the bloody psychopaths. at bay you know and the conspiracy. theorist mongers and the people who. aren't trying to discover the truth but. who are using the conspiratorial edge. let's say yeah the gropers for that. matter, right? These are people who are. clear clearly playing power games for. their own benefit and they're spinning. up these conspiratorial narratives and.

riding on them and occupying them in. this this parasitical manner. There's. going to be a huge this is a huge. problem already on the right-wing side. I don't you know I don't even know what. the hell that is anymore because I don't. know what the left is and I don't know. what the right is but we need to claim. the center. Yeah. Well, that's also what we're. trying to do with ARC. It's like, what. is the center, right? The center is a. kind of where we can all meet up. Well, and I think that's that's doable. Well, let's specify it even more. Okay. The.

center is a place you'd go if you were. invited, right? Right. Exactly. Well, and that. also ties back into this idea of play, you know, like PJ figured this out when. he was watching little kids. So, if a. little boy wants to play house with a. little girl, which is generally a good. idea. If you want to play house with a. woman at some point in your life, you. better get that right. It's a very. serious game. What's the first rule? She. has to want to. play, right? What's the second rule? You. have to play with her in a manner that.

makes her want to play with you again. Right? I I've been thinking about this a. lot in terms of u what constitutes. objective standards of morality. You. know how Sam Harris Sam Harris was. obsessed with malevolence and he wanted. to ground morality in objective science. because he thought that would give us. like a firm standing place but he went. down the wrong scientific rabbit hole. I. think I think if you understand this. relationship with play and iteration. then you have the core of morality. So. so and PG by the way this is part of.

what would you say this is the larger. this is the philosophical edge of his. theory. This is actually what he was. trying to accomplish. How do you decide. if an arrangement is good versus bad or. good versus evil? Well, PJ went to. children to find that out. It's like, okay, you want to set up a game. Why? Well, game is the first social. It's the. foundation of social interaction, right? Play a game with one other pe people, one other person, and then maybe you can. play a game with a bunch of people. And.

then you can play a game with one person. or a bunch of people across a long. period of time. And then you could do it. in a way that improves. Okay. So now, so. what are the rules? If you're a little. boy, she has to want to play. And then. you have to play with her in a way so. that she wants to play with you again. If you do that, then you have a friend. and that iterates. Now, so you can. imagine that there's a structure of. voluntary play that's really quite. stringent, but this is what you do on. your podcast. Seriously. And that's why. it's so attractive to people, you know,

when that's the core of what you might. call objective morality. It's like. there's there's a very limited number of. ways to play to offer a game that. someone else wants to play and then. there's a very limited number of ways to. play that game so that they want to keep. playing with you and then you could if. you add that con additional constraint. of improvement across the games. You've. got the straight narrow path, right? Then it's marked by we're really trying. to do this at Ark. We want to offer a vision that.

people want to accept or or even. thrilled to accept because that's even. better, right? A game that you'd be. thrilled to play. So, one of the things. we're doing on the energy side, I'm. going to an event with Alex Epstein here. in two days. Talk to energy executives. about this. You know, well, what kind of. world do you want to see? Well, how. about a world where there's so much. energy that poor people can afford it? How'd that be for a vision? Like, have.

you got a problem with that? Well, poor. people can't have energy because that'll. destroy the planet. It's like, no, poor. people can't have that energy because. you'd have to let go of the game that. you're playing as a narcissistic. psychopath that's elevating your status. inappropriately, and you're perfectly. willing to sacrifice the world's poor to. continue your grip on power. How about. that for a psychological interpretation, right? And how about this as an. alternative? Why don't we do everything. we can to drive energy costs down to the. lowest degree? that's sustainable like. in a market economy and make energy.

available to everyone so that we. eradicate absolute poverty. Why wouldn't. the left line up again around that? Because the left hypothetically serves. the poor. It's like nothing serves the. poor better than an ethos first. We got. to get that right because we're also. interested in getting the story right. But after that on the material side, there's nothing more important. Can I. stop you for a second there? I don't. think people on the left are getting. that message. I don't think they're. hearing that this is exactly what third.

world countries need is a reliable. source of energy and industry to elevate. themselves out of poverty. They're not. they're not getting that. But it's not. the problem of the people that are on. the left like the the general general. followers. Well, it might be the it. might be a problem that's facilitated by. the psychopathic fringe types. Like. look, I think it's not offered to them. is my point. Yeah. The question is why. not and the reason is like this is part. of the you talked to Lombberg.

right to Bejorn and Bejorn's pretty good. on this or very good on this I should. say. Yes. You know to give him credit. and he would like to see a world where. and he's part of ARC. He'd like to see a. world where we make energy abundance a. top priority. It's probably the only way. you're going to pull third world. countries out of dire poverty. Well, it's also, as far as I can tell, the. only way that you pull them out of. environmental catastrophe, right? Because if you want to produce an. environmental catastrophe, a true. environmental catastrophe, how about a.

three or fouryear famine so that. everyone there kills all the animals, for example, or dies, right? So, we also. know that if you get people above $5,000. a year GDP, then they start paying. attention to long-term environmental. sustainability because they don't have. to scrabble around in the dirt for their. next meal. So, then we could say, well, how about we have a future of. um sufficient abundance so that no one. is deprived of energy or or opportunity.

for their children, right? Well, that. sounds that sounds like an invitation. Now, if you hate people and you think. the industrial enterprise is a stain on. the planet and that we're viruses or. cancer on the planet, then you're going. to have a problem with that. But my. sense too is that if we had enough. energy, we could make all the deserts. bloom. I was watching a video on. pollution in. India about the amount of uh garbage. that gets thrown in rivers in India and.

it was. staggering just staggering to watch that. somehow or another through because the. population is so large and there's so. many poor people and there's a lack of. hope whatever it is they just they're. just throwing their garbage in the. rivers and the rivers are just overwhelm. whelmed with if there's ever like a. symbol of thing people that have been. led the wrong way like bad leadership, bad planning, bad bad underlying story,

everything. That's it. When you look in. your river and it's all you see is water. bottles. All you see is floating. plastic. That's the whole river. And you. know that if you get in that water, you're going to get sick. And yet no one. looks at it as number one priority. Like. what do you always say? Clean your room. Make your bed. Like right. Yeah. What. what's going on? Like well and you want. to incentivize people to pay attention. to their local environment. And you do. that in part by ensuring that they're.

not living so close to the edge of. catastrophe that they can only think. about today. Right. And if you start. from the mindset that can I tell you. another story? Sure. Okay. You tell me. all the stories. You don't have to ask. questions. All right. This is a really. cool story. This is how to set the world. right this story. So I've been traveling around lecturing. about my book and I wrote a chapter on. Abraham in that book and Abraham is the. father of in principle Islam, Christianity and Judaism, right? He's. the father of nations. That's how the.

story. goes. So when God God comes to Abraham in a. very particular way, it's one of the. ways God is characterized in the Old. Testament. So this is like a definition. of God, right? It's not a testament to. God. It's a definition of what God is. Okay. So. Abraham, he doesn't hear anything about. God till he's like 70. And he's already. living in privileged paradise because. his father and his mother are rich. And. so he doesn't have to lift a finger. If.

life is about having your needs met, Abraham's got it covered. And so he. lives like a satiated infant till he's. 70. And then a voice comes to him and it. says, "You are required by the God of. your ancestors to leave your zone of. comfort, to leave the wealth of your. father, to leave your nation, to leave. your language, to go out into the world. and have your terrible.

adventure. And if you do that, so now imagine. that's the call to adventure. If you do. that, these things will happen. This is. the covenant that God makes to the. Abrahamic people. It's so cool. I just. talked to Brett Weinstein about this. from an evolutionary biological. perspective on the road because I wanted. him to evaluate the story I'm going to. tell you from an evolutionary. perspective. So God God is the voice. that says to Abraham, if you follow the. call of adventure, you'll be a blessing. to. yourself. So that's the meaning of life,

right? To have the adventure. You'll do. this in a way blessing to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Because the adventure is. compelling. Responsible romantic. adventure is the most compelling. pathway, right? And if it's intense. enough, it justifies the suffering, right? It's a reason to it's a reason to. get up in the morning even if you're in. pain. Okay? Then he says there's ne. another thing that'll happen too, which. is that your name will become known. among your people for valid reasons. So.

that's that genuine reputation that we. talked about. So if you follow the. pattern of adventure properly, you'll be. a blessing to yourself and your name. will become known among your people for. valid reasons. So that's a good. deal. You'll do this in a way that will. maximize the probability that you'll. establish something of permanence or. even eternal permanence. So Abraham is. offered if he accepts the call and makes. the proper sacrifices along the way, God. says your descendants will be will.

outnumber the stars. So he establishes. the pattern of fatherhood that best. propagates down the generations which is. the same as following the pathway of. adventure. Then he says you'll do this. in a way that will make sure no one can. stand before you. Right? So that if you. adhere to that adventurous spirit and. you propagate it, all the enemies will. all enemies will either be converted. into friends or flee before you. And. then you'll do it in a way that brings.

abundance to everyone. And so, so now, this is the question I'd. asked Brett. So, imagine this. So, imagine that we have an instinct in us. or divine voice. I don't care which of. those you use. An instinct within us. that calls us to develop, right? That. puts us on the edge. And that's not the. same as looking for infantile satiation. or the gratification of our needs. It's. genuinely this call to expand yourself. and to be on the edge and to develop. that if you did that to follow that. instinct then you'd be a blessing to.

yourself. Your name would become known. among your people. You'd establish. something of permanent significance. No. one could stand before you and it would. bring abundance to everyone. Right? And. then in the Abrahamic story what happens. is that as Abraham accepts that goes out. in the world and then he has a series of. adventures each of which requires a more. complete. sacrifice because as you develop under. the influence of this call what you're.

required to do is. to live more carefully in accordance. with your expanding domain of. opportunity and that's the pathway. forward. So I asked Brett about that. because this is different than the. selfish gene idea, right? It's like. there's an instinct within us that calls. us to develop that pulls us out into the. world. And if we follow it religiously. and we make the proper sacrifices along. the way, then those five things will. happen around us. And that speaks of a.

concordance which has to be there. has. to be there between the spirit that. develops us and the and the pathway that. brings maximal benefit to the natural. and the social world. And I can't see. how that can be the case. If we're. adapted to the world, that has to be the. case, right? It has to be that if we. follow the instinct that would best put. us together psychologically, this quest, this adventure, that would also be the. spirit that set the world in order, right? and that spirit that whole thing.

that's what's defined as God in that in. that particular story right that. resonates well I can't see the. alternative is preposterous right the. alternative is. that we don't have an instinct to. develop like and you know that's wrong. you just have to watch children and you. know that's wrong you just have to watch. yourself and the curiosity that you have. and the desire for novelty and for. learning you know that's there that's. what you followed to make this So. definitely and so the alternative is.

that instinct doesn't exist. Well, that's a stupid theory. Or what brings. you into the world is done at the. expense of other people in a way that. won't enhance your reputation, in a way. that has nothing to do with anything. permanent. Right? Then it would be sort. of you against the world. That would be. like a power orientation. You can get. your way in the world, but you have to. manipulate. You have to lie. You have to. use compulsion. You have to use fear. You can't just rely on the quest, say,

or your adventure. And I think you can. I think you can. I think you better or. else. There's that, too. It's. interesting because you're talking about. tyrants, right? And you're talking about. people of extreme power and how that. corrupts. And in that case, there's a. large percentage of those people that. are violating all those things that you. said cuz they do manipulate and they do. rely on fear. Well, you know,

Nietze was an advocate of the will to. power, right? So, you can imagine that. there's a variety of potential. motivating forces and one would be. hydonic pleasure. That's the golden calf. worshippers, by the way. So, that's just. short-term hedonism. And that doesn't. work. And by work, I mean it doesn't. iterate socially. It's like if it's all. about you and what some whim in you. wants now, first of all, that's not. going to serve you well tomorrow. And I. don't want to be anywhere near you. Like. you're an over you're literally an. overgrown 2-year-old and that gets.

pretty ugly by the time you're 40. So. the whole golden calf thing, no, that's. just off the table. But isn't it kind of. celebrated amongst certain high. achievers particularly in the business. world like that hedonistic sociopathic. drive to constantly get more numbers on. the ledger. Yeah. Well, I don't I don't. know if that's exactly he is good. That's Wall Street, right? That's. Michael Douglas, right? Greed is good. Yeah. Well, okay. Let's delve into that. for a minute. Okay. So,

I'm not advocating for I know you're. not. I know you're not. You can turn to hedonism. You can fall. into. nihilism. You can turn to hedenism. Or. you can turn to power. Okay? This. Abrahamic covenant, it's different than. power. It's adventure. That's it's. romantic adventure. Actually, that's not. the only definition of God in the Old. Testament, by the way. There's something. deeper than than that that it refers to. So, those are the options. Now you said.

don't the achievers you know who are. stacking up numbers it's like they found. a way forward to attain status but they. but they've fixated on on they fixated. on an element that shouldn't be. fundamental they're not trying to store. up the treasure in heaven they're trying. to store up the treasure on earth and. that's better than not doing it see this. is another thing we need to understand. because I've spent a lot of time for. example trying to figure out why people. are attracted to Andrew Tate. And I I know why they're attracted to.

Andrew Tate. They'd rather be Andrew. Tate than an. incel. And they're right. Right. It's. best to give the devil his due. Like if. you had to choose. between being kind of flabby and. unhealthy and resentful and in your. basement looking at. pornography, hating women because all of. them reject you all the time and you. deserve it. And you're ineffectual. and. the future looks pretty damn gloomy. And.

then you see Andrew Tate who's tough and. hyper masculine in an almost manner. that's almost a parody and wealthy and. famous and apparently has women as at. his disposal with a fair bit of stress. on the idea of disposal. You'd think, well, I'd much rather be him than me. That's the incorporation of the shadow. from the union perspective. It's like, yeah, it's right. And you think about. the number of men that are in cells.

The thing about men also, if um they get. rejected a lot, they associate women. with pain. Yeah. And then they get angry. at those women because those women. caused them pain. Like it's just very. simple equation, of course. And that's. that's how you get a man hater or excuse. me, that's how you get a woman hater. And the same could be said for that's. how you get a man hater, right? You. associate men with rejection and and. cruelty and they're all that way. Young. men in particular are more likely to be.

rejected. Young women may have. difficulty finding the ideal man, but. they don't face the same degree of. universal rejection. So, it's hard on. young men. Well, they're not the. pursuers, right, as much the young women. aren't. Right. Right. Well, and and. women are the gatekeepers fundamentally. of sex. So, that's their that's their. essential power. That's also the power. of chastity. And that's the scary thing. about acquiring wealth is that wealth. allows you to bypass the genetic social. hierarchy. Yeah. I talked to I talked to.

Russell Brand about this a lot. You. know, women threw themselves at. him. How'd that work out for him? Not. great. You know, it threw him into great. spiritual confusion. It it was empty and. hollow. And that's worth knowing. You. see, because you might say to the people. who are interested in the shadow figures. and tape plays that role, the master of. women, let's say, why not do that?

Because you need an answer to that if. it's certainly when it's better than. being lonely, isolated, bitter, and. ineffectual. That's for sure. Well, it's. because. you don't confuse a stepping stone with. the pinnacle. That's why there's way. more beyond. that. I mean, you're a tough guy. You. went through your. disciplinary processes on the physical. side in particular, the intellectual. side, too, I might.

add. You know, you've got what Tate has. to offer, but you're what? You're. respectable. Why? Why? I have a different completely. different background than him first of. all and. also my feeling in. life. is whenever you can be nice. That's like. a general guy. You mean nice or good? I. mean both. Okay. Nice as well.

Um I get the posturing. I get how it. would be attractive to young men. I get. it. If I was a young man, I would. certainly be drawn to him and I was to. many fighters and I accepted a lot of. personality flaws and people that I. admired as fighters because they were. very successful at doing this one. insanely difficult thing. Right. Right. And often. times that requires a certain amount of. narcissism. It requires a certain amount.

of internal. focus. Ironically enough, not at the. championship level. Ironically enough, it gets you close, but it doesn't get. you to be the king. The kings are almost. precisely universally disciplined, focused, and generally kind. They're. some of the nicest people, the best at. the most difficult thing athletically to. do. And the most difficult you're you're. conquering.

other wrote about this in the book of. five rings. You you you must have. balance in everything in life. If you. have imbalance, you can get pretty far. because you're so specialized, right? You're so driven, but you will fall prey. to the to the balanced man. Yeah. Well, that that's exactly that's exactly my. point. You you will also recognize. characteristics in him that you envy and.

that you wish you had yourself. Like if. you're a narcissist and a sociopath, you. know you are and you can't really be. proud of yourself. You can't you don't. you don't have the benefit of the. positive feedback that you get from true. kindness to others. You don't have that. You also know that your reputation is. founded on sand. And one of the way to. rationalize that is well everyone does. that. Everyone's like that. Yeah. But. then you don't trust or like anyone, right? And then you're really alone. That that's for sure. You're really. alone. And then if you do achieve.

success, it's hollow because you you. realize like so you know you just. outlined there the the progression that. Carl Jung identified as characteristic. of individuation, right? When with with. the second thing that you said. So. imagine that you. start you start an incel, right? You're. ineffectual and you're rejected as a. young man. Now there are exceptions, but. let's just play that out as the the. unhappy majority. Okay? And now you look.

for a shadow figure to sharpen you up, to toughen you up, and to make you. strive at least along one dimension, right? And so then you do that. Well, then the next thing that happens in the. union stage progression is for a man, it's integration of thema, which is the. feminine part. And it's integration. It's not replacement. It's like, oh, well, then you discover the utility of. empathy and compassion and kindness and. mercy and care. while still being able. to deal out justice, let's say. And so.

then you bridge that gap and then that. integration you just said even among. fighters, that's what puts them in the. highest place, right? That's right. That's right. So, but it's hard for the. people, it's hard for those who are. completely disaffected and also quite. angry about it. You know, the people who. are interested in the pathway that Tate. offers, they're not so unhappy that he's. hard on women because they're pretty mad. at women. And so, you know, if it's the. or me, then I'll pick me, right?

You know, right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so, and it it it is very. crucial to get this progression correct. because. monster is better than wimp. Right. Right. But the question is what's better. than monster? And so it's very interesting that you. made those comments on the fighting side. because you wouldn't necessarily think. that it would be true in that world as. well. Well, one of the best examples is. your countryman, George St. Pierre, one.

of the greatest of all time. One of the. nicest guys I've ever met. And if you. didn't know that that that he was one of. the greatest fighters of all time, you. would never guess it. You would never. guess it talking to him. He's curious. He's interesting. He's intelligent. He's. very well read. He has a he's always. interested in different things. He's. constantly searching for new. information. And as a martial artist, he is still on a quest of improvement.

even though he's retired from competing. Always trains. He's constantly training. A quest for new information. Okay. So, let me let me tell you a story about. that, please. All right. So, this is the story that comes up at. the beginning of Moses when he turns. into a leader. So it's about how you. turn into a leader. Okay. So he's. already killed a man and he's left Egypt. because of it. So now he's in this land. called Midian and he goes there and he. chases some ruffians away from a well. for these two girls who are drawing. water. And they go and tell their father.

and he says to them, "Bring this young. man home to have dinner." So he does. And then he gets married to them. Then. he becomes a shepherd. And this is. crucial because the shepherd's an image. that runs through the biblical corpus, right? Well, shepherds at that time. lived by themselves in the wilderness on. their wits and they kept the wolves and. the lions at bay with primitive weapons. So these were tough guys and they cared. for the most vulnerable. So a shepherd.

is an image of optimized ordinary. masculinity. You can take care of. yourself, you can keep the monsters at. bay, and you attend to the most. vulnerable. So Moses has got that. He's. a shepherd. He's a successful shepherd. And now he's out there one day wandering. around Mount Si and Mount Si or Mount. Horeb. That's the place where heaven and. earth touch. So that's where the. messengers of the divine descend to. earth. And so he's out there and. something attracts his attention. Makes. him curious. That's the burning bush.

It's not a forest fire. It's not. something you can't ignore. It's. something alive because that's a bush. A. tree is a symbol of life. And it's. burning because things that are alive. burn, right? That's metabolism and an. intensification of that, like a. psychedelic intensification of that. That's what the burning bush is. And. that's what glimmers to Moses. And he. steps off the beaten track, right? To. investigate what drives his curiosity. And so then he goes off the beaten track. and he starts.

to delve deeply into the mysteries of. the burning bush. And at some point he. realizes he's on sacred ground. He takes. off his shoes. That's a symbol of. willingness to transform identity. because shoes signify identity, right? They're part of your costume, your. working man's costume. And so then he. continues to commune with the burning. bush. He gets deeper and deeper into. something. He makes himself a specialist. by following what compels him and. delving deeply into it. And when he gets. deep enough into it to the bottom, the.

voice of eternity speaks to him and. says, "You're now no longer who you. were. You're now a leader. You have to. go back to your people. You have to. stand up against the tyrant. You have to. tell the slaves that they need to leave. their tyranny and their slavery and. serve me in the wilderness. And you have. to do that now." And Moses says, "I. can't because I can't speak. I'm slow of. tongue." And God says. basically, "That's your problem. And.

with me on your side, we can sort that. out. And don't you have a brother, Aaron, and can't he speak?" It's like, "Bring him along for the ride." And so. that's when Moses becomes a leader, right? And so that's the pattern. It's. like ordinary masculinity. Those are the. dwarves that Snow White serves before. she meets the prince, by the way, the. ordinary masculine, right? So, but and. that and those dwarves protect her from. the evil queen that wants to suppress. her by feeding her a poisoned apple. So,

Snow White has to learn to serve the. ordinary man before she can find a. prince. Yeah. Something Disney missed. completely in the last story. So, so what's the pattern? Well, you. discipline yourself so you become a. shepherd and then you follow what. compels you off the path. Then you take. it seriously and get to the bottom of it. and then that transforms you and thus. transformed you can face the tyrant. You.

can specify the promised land properly. and you can lead the. slaves across chaos and blood. That's. the Red Sea and then through the desert, right? And so you said, you know, you. said two things. You said that the good. fighters have learned to integrate their. civilized side otherwise they don't get. to be great and that they continue the. pathway of self-improvement. Right? They. continue to pursue what's calling to. them. That's another definition of God.

in the Old Testament by the way. What. calls to. you? That's the burning bush. The spirit. of the burning bush is what entices you, what grabs your interest, what attracts. your curiosity. And that's identical. The biblical claim is that's the same. thing as the spirit of adventure. It's. the same thing that speaks to Noah. Noah. is a good man. And a voice comes to him. and says, "All hell's about to break. loose." And he believes his intuition. because he's a good man and can rely on.

himself. So he makes the ark, right? And. he brings his family aboard and culture. and nature and reestablishes humanity. That's the pathway of the leader, too. What is your take on there's a. university in Jerusalem that had this. theory that the burning bush was the. acacia bush and the acacia bush is rich. in DMT. Well, I think look look I think. that hallucinogens strip memory from. perception. So you see the world in all.

its blazing glory. Hus Huxley figured. that out in with the doors of. perception. That's really what that is. apparently what psychedelics do. psychopharmarmacologically. They mimic they mimic a high stress. condition and they strip memory from. perception so that you can return to the. source and revitalize your perceptions. Right? So the probability that there's. some overlap between that and the. burning bush is high. It's high, so to. speak. High. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

I'll tell you I'll I'll tell you one. more thing, one more story, okay? If. that's all right with you. So something. else I figured out that I tried on. Brett. So imagine you could take the. hedenistic path, you could take the. power. path, you could take the nihilistic. path. Okay? And then you might say, well, that's the only three. options. That's kind of what the. postmodernists believe. That's kind of. what the nihilists and the. postmodernists, the nichians believe.

Power, hedonism, nihilism, those are. your options. There's no uniting. narrative above that. Okay? So in the story of Cain and. Abel, two patterns are laid out that are. different than that. One is Cain's. pattern. One's Abel's pattern. So these. are the first two people that are that. live in in the world, right? Because. Adam and Eve are made by God. You can. they're in paradise or were Cain and. Abel are the first two.

people. So Abel brings his best to the. table. So he takes the best animal in his flock. and he takes the best cut and the best. part of the cut and he offers that to. God. So he bring literally brings his. best to the table. That's what he. sacrifices. And Cain doesn't. So Cain's. sacrifices are rejected by God and God. tells him, "If you brought your best to. the table, you'd be accepted." And Cain. gets bitter and resentful.

and invites temptation in to possess. him. So that spirit of resentment. possesses him and then he becomes. murderous. He kills his brother and his. descendants become genocidal and then. you have the flood. And so that pattern. of sacrifice is established right at the. beginning of the biblical text. Abel. versus Cain. Abel brings the best to the. table and that satisfies God. So one. question God actually asks Cain this.

when Cain complains says if you wouldn't. you be accepted if you were doing your. best. So that's a question of conscience. right if you're in extreme misery and. your life is hollow and empty and you're. bitter and resentful it's like you. bringing your best to the table because. the the covenant proclaims that if you. did you'd be accepted. Yeah. So clearly. Okay. So now the question is what. constitutes now you know you have to. sacrifice. So sacrifice becomes the.

foundation of the state. Not power, not. hedenism, it's sacrifice. And then that. motif is played out through the whole. Bible. And that's what culminates in the. New Testament, right? Total sacrifice as. the foundation of the community. That's. right. And like I don't know how to what. sense to make out of the metaphysics of. the religious realm, you know, because. that's beyond me and everyone. The. world's a strange place and we could. leave it at that. But the idea.

that see Christ is the exemplar of. voluntary self-sacrifice, right? Won't. turn to power, won't deviate from his. course, faces the worst of all possible. deaths, descends to hell itself. That's. the pattern of life lived with no. reserve. And that's the foundation of. the free state. That's right. I tried. that on Brett. He told me when we first met on the tour. that he felt that the biblical. narratives were anacronistic. You know, that they were written in a time that.

was no longer relevant to us. But. he decided by the end of our three days. together that if you got to the core of. the message, it's alive, right? That's. the living spirit inside the bush, you. might say. And that it's So, here's even. the weirder thing. So imagine it's. pretty obvious that Christ is a symbol. of voluntary self-sacrifice, right? I. don't think that doesn't really come as. a shock to anyone. But the weird thing. is, you know, we put that symbol at the.

center of our churches and at the. centers of our towns for 2,000 years, not really knowing why. And the reason. is is that voluntary self-sacrifice is. the foundation of the integrated psyche. and the stable, productive, and abundant. community. And that's right. It's right. And. so, well, it's been exciting to have the. opportunity over the last nine months to. go talk to people about that because.

I've talked to. about 150,000 people, I guess, public. lectures. That to me is one of the most. fascinating aspects of Christianity. Regardless of whether or not you. think logically these things took place, logically these stories are an a. completely accurate depiction of exactly. how if you follow the principles, it's. incredibly. beneficial to your spiritual life as a. person. Like you will Well, that's a.

kind of interesting proof, isn't it? Because it means that there's truth in. it. Well, there's certainly there's. certainly the spirit that makes what. would you say? The spirit of truth that. makes life more abundant. That's exactly. right. And these are weird stories. because the way they're true is very. sophisticated. They're true. always. That's different than a story. about the past. Like the truest story is. always happening. The story of Moses is. exactly like that. like the pattern of.

leadership development that's embedded. in the Exodus story. That is how leaders. develop if they're real leaders and the. p their temptation is power. But that's. not their motivation. That's their. temptation. Right? That's a very. important distinction. And that's always. the case with leaders. And if they fall. prey to the temptation of power, no. matter what their accomplishments, they're not going to complete the task. Right? And so there's a cool element at. the end of that story too. You know,

when Moses, just before Moses dies, he. picks a scout from each tribe, 12. tribes, and he sends them to Canaan, which is the future. That's a good way. of thinking about it. It's the potential. place we could reside where everything. was worked out, the land of milk and. honey. He sends 12 scouts there. And 10. of them come back and. say, they tell a fear story. say it's. it's insurmountable the challenges that. lie ahead of us. There's no way we can. master this. We should have never.

crossed the desert. We should have. stayed under the thumbs of the tyrants. We should have never tried to be. anything more than slaves because now. we're doomed. And two of. them say, "No, if we maintain our. upward orientation and our covenant, nothing can stand in our way. We can. make the deserts bloom." Moses dies. those two scouts and so do all the. Israelites who are convinced by the. unfaithful scouts. And the scouts die. and the two people who go on.

to the promised land are Caleb and. Joshua. And they lead the Israelites, the faithful Israelites into the. promised land. Those are the people who. have the courage to confront the future. in a faithful. and what would you say? Faithful, hopeful, and courageous manner. They are. the inheritors of the future. Caleb, Joshua, Joshua's name is the same as. Christ's name. It's the same name. That's not fluke, right? That's one of. those echoes or precursors to the story.

There's there's an ethos that leads you. into the premise promised land. And. what's the ethos? The spirit of. voluntary. self-sacrifice. You know, you give up. something for a social relationship. Of. course, you give up being primary, right? They you do the same thing at the. social level. And when you do that, it. integrates you and it sets the world. straight. And that's built into the. biblical story. It's right at its core.

So, pause that thought. I'm going to use. the restroom. We'll come back. Yep. We're back. So, it's great fun to explain these. things to people on the tour because it. it sorts them out. Well, it's very. fascinating. Yeah, that's for sure. And. the fact that these stories have existed. for so long is so interesting, you know, that's that's where it gets really. weird. Yeah. Well, they've they've. they've adapted to the contours of our. memory and our imagination. Yeah. So, you find them compelling and they stick. to your memory. So, I'm going to tell.

you what else I'm up to. Okay. What are. you up to? Well, the first thing I want. to do is thank you. So, we launched Peterson Academy in. September and we talked about it and. it's been a stunning success. We have. 40,000 students. That's amazing. We. think we're the most rapidly. capitalized. We're one of the most. rapidly capitalized companies ever, especially with our degree of investment. because we run a lean show. We have.

great professors. We have a great social. media site. We had to kick 10 people off. it. We have 15,000 active users. 10. people were dragging it sideways. What. were they doing? They were they were. causing trouble. Joe causing trouble. Well, or immature or or out for or. didn't know how to conduct themselves or. that's all it took. And now everyone is. sharing ideas and and Mick, my my. daughter and her husband, they keep a. close eye on this. That's great. We're we have secured funding to the.

point where. we are dropping the price from 599 to. 3.99 a year as of today. Right? So that. should make it accessible to a lot more. people. And we're even more convinced. than we were that this has to be the. future of higher education. So when we. were doing our due diligence for the. fundraising, we discovered that 40% of. courses at university are now online and.

we've investigated some of those. courses. Many of them are PowerPoint. presentations and that's all. And so. that's the university experience for. full tuition and we literally have the. best professors in the world and. unmatched production quality. So, and. we're filling in the social element, too, because we want people to be able. to meet. The social media platform does. that. It's very positive platform. We've. already had our first couple announce.

themselves, which was quite fun. And. we're going to do inerson events, our. our first plan. We're going to do a. cruise. Can I ask you this? Yeah. What. has what has your journey been like to. go from relative obscurity as a. professor in. Toronto to becoming this person who you. are now sort of a worldwide educator. outside of the standard system of.

academia but. also subject to intense international. scrutiny. um character distortions um. complete. complete volunt like what what they've. done to change your positions on like. you are probably the most intentionally. misrepresented person I know. intentionally misrepresented we see you. see it with a lot of other people too. but with you it's uh it's ve it's.

it's it's malicious you know I've seen. But yet you have. this desire inside of. you to spread information and to educate. and learn and learn. I'm learning on the. stage. What has it been like? Cuz you. How old were you when I first met you? It was like 2015, right? Somewhere. around 10 years ago. 53. Yeah. You were.

just un you were just. encountering notoriety just encountering. attention and and what what all the. trappings that come with that. What has. that been like like navigating that? It's very unusual for a person who. becomes world famous, you know, at 50 for ideas. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. Um well. first I mean it was exhilarating and.

painful to begin with. It was. exhilarating because I knew the ideas. that I was teaching at Harvard and at. the uft were revolutionary. I could. never believe I never could get over the. fact that they allowed me to teach like. it was just a but the students loved my. courses and I was very diligent you know. so I I stayed in my traces so to speak. and I wasn't a revolutionary for the. sake of revolutionary argumentation and. I was teaching about totalitarianism and. great evil and so it was hard to make a. moral case against me and no one was.

really inclined to you know they were. happy with my teaching so and as were. the students and I had a clinical. practice which was quite extensive. But then when I. first started to lecture much more. broadly, we rented a theater and I did a. series on Genesis. That was the first. foray out into the public space and it. sold out. Well, that was when I started. to encounter pain, I would say, at a. crowd level. And that was rough, Joe,

because I'm pretty good at getting. people to open up to me right away. I. mean, I learned that as a clinician, you. know, and to have thousands of people do. that, that's pretty rough. Now, it was. good. It was a good thing, like all. things considered, because people would. tell me how miserable they were, how. discouraged, and how sidelined and often. how bitter, how addicted, how. imprisoned. Rough stories. And then tell. me how much they had improved. But that. was also there was a tragic element to.

that because it it didn't take that. much, you know, to tap them into the. right orientation. And so there was. sadness in that to see all these people. who were. demoralized, thousands of them, and then. to. see how that could be rectified and yet. hadn't been. That was rough. I'd really. I'm sure that was what there's many. things that made me sick. I had a. pre-existing condition that was.

autoimmune, but seeing all that that was. pretty. rough. But knowing that it was possible to. rectify it, well, that's there's nothing. better than that. Like, you know, wherever I go now, it's so. interesting. Wherever I go now, I'm. among friends. It's very strange. And I. have security people and they keep an. eye on me. And all the interactions I. have with people are positive. And I.

always take time for people, you know, because well, if. they're they've been positively impacted. by something that I've read or said and. they're trying to get their lives. together, it's like, how about we. encourage that, right? Because more of. that would be real good. And if we had. enough of that, then more of that would. be real good and real necessary. Yeah. And so, and good for everyone, too. Hey, absolutely. Well, that's that abundance. It's like you got your act together. Great. That'll be real good for you. Be.

great for your girlfriend. Be great for. your kids. Be great for your community. Absolutely. And it's Well, you know, the. Christian ethos, the emphasis is. redemption, one soul at a time. Well, I'm a psychologist. You know, that's. what I think. One person at a time. because everyone's connected way more. intensely than we think. Yeah. And so. there's no such thing as a trivial. person. And there's no such thing as a. trivial sin or a trivial accomplishment. for that matter. And so and I know that.

I know that. I studied totalitarianism. for a long time. I know how it comes. about. It comes about when everyone lies. about everything all the time. And the. way you stop that is by not lying. And. that's how it stops. So what's it like? painful and insanely exhilarating at the. same time. And you know, the balance has. shifted over the years to the. exhilaration once I got on top of it, once I got my health under control,

which required pretty stringent. discipline. Like I I eat steak and when. I deviate from that, things start to. fall apart around me pretty quick. Isn't. it crazy that that alone is polarizing? You're eating all the steak. You're. contributing to the downfall of. civilization. You're destroying the. environment. Don't you know that cows. are the number one producer. of I know we got to stop eating meat, Jordan. We eat too much meat and that's. why the world's Meanwhile, China's.

opening up coal plants every week. It's. hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's just another Okay, so it's also. surreal and that's one element. The diet. thing just alone, that just alone is. surreal. I mean, my daughter was so sick. and now she's great. Isn't it crazy? It's It's crazy. Well, my wife is on. this carnivore diet, too. And like, it's. been unbelievably good for her. It's. been It's unbelievably good for almost. everybody in the room. That's what's. really nuts. Well, it's it's it's it's. crazy for the mind. That's Oh, yeah.

Well, your brain likes to run on. ketones, as it turns out. Yeah, it. really does. I felt when I, you know, I've done it back and forth, but when. I'm on it strictly, you know, like when. I go back to it, one of the things that. I notice immediately is I have like an. extra gear intellectually. My brain. works stamina. Yeah. More stamina. We're. going to run a study and IQ test people. Really? Yeah. Because my sus we don't. know, but yeah. Uh um there's two. studies planned. One on one group will. be people with immunological disorders.

try carnivore, keto, and no ordinary. diet. random assignment, but we're also. going to give them personality and IQ. tests. You should do it with this with. junk food. That I'd be fascinated to see. people pre like go the the the right way. first and then try junk food, you know, sort of like it'd be good to do an abbab. design. That's that is what was that. superersize me? Yeah. Yeah. That. documentary. Yeah. Where the guy just. Well, it's clear it's absolutely crystal. clear that we eat too many.

carbohydrates. Like the food pyramid is. upside down. Yes. Clearly. And then on. top of that, environmental pollutants. and all the other issues that we have. with additives. And this is to me is one. of the more exciting things about this. current administration is the make. America healthy again movement. And you. know, eliminate fluoride from the water, eliminate all these I think there's a. new list of ingredients that most of. them are banned in Europe and a lot of. other places and are legal in America. It's insanity and it doesn't make any.

sense. And and often times the arguments. don't even make sense as to why they. continue to produce it because they. produce the same products for Canada for. instance where Canada has better laws. when it comes to the additives. So the. they produce the ones in Canada where. they don't have the the negative. dangerous additives and yet they still. make this argument that to force them to. stop doing that in America will cause. great economic harm. It's like, well, it's clearly clearly the case that we.

have an obesity, diabetes, and mental health epidemic. And the probability that all of those. are associated. with insulin resistance and imunological. reaction seems to me to be probably. herbicides and pesticides. Yeah. Well, well, there there's a. cascading there's a cascade of. differential effects. Undoubtedly, some. people are more sensitive to those. things as well. I was watching a. documentary that I I sent to Jamie about. uh China and one of the you know China.

innovates at such a level like such a. fascinating level that um you know. because they're integrated with the. government which I'm not I'm not saying. is a good thing but because of that sort. of unlimited growth because the growth. is designed for the state like. everyone's all involved in it. Um, one. of the things they're doing is. integrating rice farms with crayfish. farms. So, they figured out a way to. stop using herbicides and pesticides and.

instead farm these two things together. So, they have the rice and then they. have the crayfish. The crayfish feed off. the excess material from the rice but. also keep the water nitrogen and. carbonri. And so the rice is more nutrientrich and. so soil is more nutrient-rich. And then. they're bringing in fish and crabs as. well. So they're harvesting all of these.

different things that people eat along. with the rice all in together and. they've created you just sort of the. like what they've done with regenerative. agriculture like white oaks pastures and. you know Polyface Farms and different. regenerative agriculture establishments. in America. But they're doing it with. rice to avoid using herbicides and. pesticides. And well, hopefully the new. administration under Kennedy will be. able to figure out how to prioritize. these things so some of them happen. I.

my concern I suppose it's not my. concern. A concern is that they'll try. to do too many things at once, you know, and that's why I focused when we talked. earlier today about insulin resistance. Well, there's so much to try to change. Well, that's it. And you you can't. change it all. Like that's there's going. to be resistance on all fronts, but but. one person at a time as you're saying. like when you when you have this message. and you talk to people about things that. you've done that have made you. healthier, that message resonates and.

then one person at a time tries that. their friends join in and the next thing. you know you've got a large percentage. of healthy people that are listening to. you which is I've seen that again in at. the shows like one of the things that's. also have changed across the years is. that the proportion of people who are in. trouble at my shows is decreasing. And. partly that's because many of the guys. who come. um generally with their wife and often.

with a child have put themselves. together and and then they're happy. about that and they tell me the story. And so that's great. like there there's. nothing better than traveling all around. the world and having people come up to. you and say that they weren't doing so. well and that their lives are way better. now and thank you. Yes, that's a good. deal. That's a great deal. That's a good. deal. Those are my favorite stories that. I hear from people that listen to the. podcast. They're like, I've listened to. the podcast. I lost 60 pounds. I started.

working out every day. I'm I'm much. healthier. I'm drinking a lot of water. I'm taking electrolytes and vitamins and. and just my mental health has improved. because of the daily exercise. I'm a. different person. I'm on the right path. Yeah. Well, it's so so that's very. interesting too that the fact that. that's actually you said those are the. best stories that you can hear. I love. those stories. Well, it shows you. something about non-hedanistic. motivation. It's like imagine what you. could have if you could have anything. you wanted. Well, maybe you know your.

imagination would drift first to the. hedenistic side or maybe the power side. for that matter. It's like, "No, how. about you can wander around anywhere in. the world, some isolated field with a. castle on it in Serbia, and people that. you've never seen will come up to you. and say, "I was having a pretty damn. dismal time of it, all things. considered, and I listened to what you. wrote and said, and in consequence, I. put my life together, and their wife is. standing beside them going, "Yeah, he's. really in a lot better shape. Thank you.

a lot." It's like, yeah, no, those those. are great. That's a good deal. That's a. great deal. Yeah. So, so when you ask. what it's like, well, it's like a lot of. that. Yeah. You know, and and do you. feel a burden? Do you feel like a sense. of responsibility that is at times. overwhelming because of this. responsibility that you have? I think I. felt more for a good while the pain of. it. It wasn't the responsibility. Well, well, the intense connection you. have to these people that are Well, the.

responsibility I the responsibility. makes you careful, you know. How careful are you? Pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Cuz you have a. responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. But that's. okay. Yeah. Well, that's part of that. additional sacrifice. Like it seems. natural to me. Okay. What What do you mean? um that with you know the the concept. with great power comes great. responsibility. It just seems normal,

right? Well, it has to be the case, right? I mean, as your field of. opportunity expands, yeah, if your field. of responsibility doesn't expand, you'll. collapse and you pay a higher price for. stupidity at larger scales of. opportunity. Yes. Obviously. Obviously. And so, get your act together and and. you know, and and is that a burden? Voluntarily undertaking responsibility. isn't a burden. It's an opportunity. Right? That doesn't mean it's it is it's.

not easy. But easy like I don't need I. don't know what easy is. What's easy? Pointless misery. That's not easy. Right. Like you have life with no. meaning is one of the hardest things. Absolutely. Right. So, I guess the. reason you pick up your cross and walk. uphill is because that's the best thing. you can do all things considered. I. mean, that's why Christ says that his. burden is light. That his yoke is light. It's like, huh? You're supposed to take.

up your cross and walk. uphill towards death and hell, let's. say. But that's light. Okay. Why? Because because there's no better. pathway than voluntarily undertaking. responsibility. M well definitely that's. psychologically impeccable statement. like there's no difference statistically. speaking between thinking about yourself. and being miserable. It's. self-consciousness. They're the same thing. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Which is a giant problem. with social media. Right. Terrible. problem. Accelerant to misery. Yeah. Yeah. It's an Sure. As soon as you're. focused on you, the narrow you, now. you're self-conscious. You stumble on. stage. You can't play your musical. instrument. You can't ride a bike. You. can't box. Right? You're not in the. flow. Why? Cuz you're not serving the. right thing. Like when I go on stage, I. remember first of all, I have music at. the beginning of my shows. I've got a. great musician. What are you playing? Uh.

well, I I don't play it. It's uh um I. have a musician from Cambridge. Yeah. Yeah. And my son sometimes plays for us, which is really fun. So, it's not songs. It's just music. Well, Julian, when. Julian plays, he plays he plays um his. he plays country music on a guitar and a. couple of his own his own uh. compositions. So, it's been fun to have. him along when because he's quite good. at it. And so, that's really that's. really great. But the. music the the the Dave, the guy who. plays for me, he um he starts out plays.

classical gas. He's kind of like a. one-man band. plays classical guitar, but he's he's got electronic instruments. around him, and he can fill up the. theater or the stadium. He likes playing. in stadiums. And he ends with Inception. on electric guitar, which is pretty. hardcore rock all things considered. and. it gets everybody focused, you know, and. then when I'm lecturing, I have a. question and I know that's a quest and.

it's real because I pick something. important that I would like the answer. to and then I explore that with the. audience and I'm not self-conscious. And. the reason for that is it's not about. me. It's. about trying to answer the question and. even more importantly trying to get the. damn question right to begin with. Right? Because you got to get the. question right, man. That's the crucial. issue. Then the words come to you that. what did I figure out? The spirit of. your aim is what answers your prayers.

Here's a brutal idea for you. Right. Right. Right. So if you want to defeat. your wife, the spirit of power will tell. you what to say. Right. Yeah. Right. Is. right, man. Right. There's a terrifying. thing to know. So if you aim upward high. enough, then the spirit of upward. aim reveals itself to you in words. That's right. In words and intent. And. that's exactly right. So So it's great.

Like it's a lot. You know, you know that it's a lot. Yeah. I had a different journey though. My journey was like a slow drip of fame, which I think was very healthy. It's a. good way to do it so you could adjust to. it. Yeah. Well, you also you also mostly. escaped from reputation savaging, right? I mean, you've had I'm not saying. completely cuz people have gone after. you, but I got a real flurry of of early.

hate around Bill C16, which I was 100%. right about. But it was you were a. lightning rod. You were the patriarchy. You were the the one to point to that. was going to reinforce these established. norms that are not supportive of the. minimalized. and marginalized communities, right? You. were you were cruelty, right? You were. the cruel white man. What did what did. uh that guy call you? Mean mean white.

man. White man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is by the way you've already. lost when you when that's you're. throwing poratives out there like that. in a debate. Like that's the thing that. I was talking about like when someone. tries to establish. insults and get you on your back. It's. offense. It's offense to put you in a. defensive position so that you cannot do. your best. Yeah. Well, it's also to pull. the rug out from underneath you so you. collapse your reputation permanently and.

that redowns to the person's credit. Also, it's to establish a narrative to. the audience that's listening to you. Now, you have to look at this person. under this light because I've I've done. so eloquently described him as this. thing. Yeah. And then he will be. defensive about that because he doesn't. I am not and then you look even more. like that thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very. underhanded way of of progressing, which. is luckily I I don't like that. Not only. do I not like that, I don't think that's.

necessary. I don't think it's necessary. as the person doing it. I certainly. don't think it's necessary to respond to. that. I don't think it does anyone any. good. I don't think it's good for. society as a whole, and it's definitely. not good for exploring ideas. I wonder. what you do with the psychopaths. But. it's also you're trying to win. Yeah. Versus trying to express your. perspective with as much clarity and as. much thought as possible. You're trying.

to do your very best. to examine these things from a selfless. perspective to from a truly objective. perspective. Well, it's a truly it's a. truly quest perspective, I think. Right. So, it's it's not exactly objective. It's more like because you don't have. access to that. But what you can say is. I'm I'm genuinely puzzled about this. Yes. And I would genuinely like to. search for the answer. Right. Right. Wouldn't it be ideal if you were having.

a debate where someone said something. that you agreed with and you're like, "Wow, he's got a really good point." And. you instead of refuting that person, exploring that with them, which is one. of the reasons I don't like debates. I. don't like debates. like conversations. because in conversations if you don't. have a a predetermined. narrative that you want to enforce with. instead you have your thoughts you have. your ideas and you're not married to. them and these are just thoughts and you.

put them out there and then you can. encounter a very unique human being who. has a way of describing and thinking. about things that will open your mind to. new possibilities which is what we all. should strive for, right? We should all. strive to be. to be illuminated to to to learn from. new things, but yet we close those off. because that is a a point that your. enemy is trying to score. Well, you want. to give them Well, it's also because.

people people aren't really very. well-versed in how to do this. You know, it's like so so one of the huge. advantages of your podcast and of the. podcast world in general, I would say, is that you model how to do that, you. know, it's like and there's a there's an. there's an intense religious ethos under. that. So, okay, so what does it mean? You start without pride in humility. It's like, what the hell do I know, right? Or or maybe more precisely, there's probably some things I could. still learn that would be beneficial.

Okay? You note your interest in a topic and. your desire to know more. So that's the. quest element. It's like you're after. something, right? You don't know what it. is, but but it's more development. It's. more wisdom. It's more information, right? And you're not sure where it's. going to be. Okay. So now you you're the. sort of person who could learn and that. has something to learn and now you have. a quest in mind. Okay. So now that's. that's the frame for your actions. Well,

if you if you're talking to someone. who's also doing that, well, then those. are the words that come. Yeah. Right. And and they come they come in a. compelling way to you and to the. participant and in a way that's. compelling enough so that they compel. other people. That's the Holy Spirit, by. the way. That's that phenomenon from a. religious perspective. That's exactly. what it is, right? Because that's like. you sit before the talk and rehearse. what words you're going to say. They. just appear, right? No, I never do. I.

don't think I should. No, I don't. Well, sometimes it's a problem because you. breach subjects that you weren't really. prepared to talk about and you might not. have a fully formed idea about it. Yeah. You, you know, you're not exact, oh, if. I thought about that, what would I have. said differently? You know, yeah, but. you kind of have to find that out along. the way. Yes. Right. You know, and that. way you're, you know, you have a right. to stumble over your own ignorance. For. sure. How the hell do you know it's. there before you reveal it? Well, not. only that, I don't think the audience. truly trusts you unless they feel.

authenticity in. that that quest as it were, that that. desire to try to understand like what. what is it that you believe and why do. you believe what you believe and where. did you come to these conclusions? How. what what journey did you go on? What. what ideas did you dismiss? What ideas. were holding you back? What ideas did. you realize were just a personal. weakness that you were protecting. yourself from reality?

Pro protecting yourself from the reality. of bad choices and past mistakes. What. what are you doing to to stop that from. entering into your current state of. mind, you know, and and that that kind. of thinking people can mirror and they. can listen to you talk about these. things and say, I do that. Okay, I got. to stop doing that. Okay, this is what. this is how I can this is how I can. clarify the way I view things and this.

is why I'm tripping myself up because. I'm I keep trying to win conversations. I keep trying to be right all the time. which is impossible especially. That's. right. It's a way it's a it's elevating. your status in the conversation as a. consequence of abstract victory instead. of ab instead of increasing your wisdom. and enhancing your reputation as a. sojourer towards the truth. Yes. And. this is especially difficult for young. people because you don't have enough.

life experience to have made these. mistakes and corrected them and learned. and grown and and have the humility to. recognize that process. Right. Instead, you see other people that are successful. or whatever it is and you want that. right now. Yes. And that and that's. wrong, too, because you don't want that. right now. You want to learn how to have. that so that when you want to win the. lottery, but you don't. No. No. Definitely not. You don't. Right. Because everybody wants to win the. lottery, but that's one of the worst. things that can happen to you. Mhm.

Well, and what do young people have um. they can listen and they can ask. questions. Mhm. Right. And you know they. say when the student is ready, the. teacher will come. Well, how how does. that play out in the world? Well, if you. admit to your ignorance and you ask. genuine stupid questions, you will. rapidly encounter people who are more. than happy to share their wisdom with. you. Like people love having mentees,

right? They like to be able to share. their wisdom and their experience. Unfortunately, even if they don't have. it, that's where it becomes a problem. The false prophet. Yeah. Well, that's. right. Well, that's a problem. The false. guru. Yeah. Right. The people that don't. have the answers to their own lives, so. they try to give other people answers to. their lives. Yeah. Well, that's also the. psychopath problem is that, you know, what about the people who are feigning. competence, right? Yeah. Right. Well, that's a real problem. Yeah. It's a real.

problem. That's that's that's that's a. it's a deadly problem and it's massively. elevated on social media. Yes. Yeah. Well, it used to be a gigantic problem. in martial arts, the fake martial. artists. There was a lot of them. Sure. Yeah. Any g any that's the that's the. eternal parasite problem. Mhm. Yes. Yeah. So, so organisms build up a storehouse of. value, a carcass, let's say, like a. whale carcass for example,

and inevitably the parasites move in to. invade it inevitably. And that's. so consistent a pattern that sex evolved. to stop it. How so? Well, parasites can. reproduce faster than their hosts. because they're. simpler. And so they can swarm the host. quite rapidly, especially if the host. clones itself because the host then.

stays identical physiologically across. the generations. So the parasites can. optimize to colonize the host and that's. the end of it. If you reproduce. sexually, you mix your genes up 50. You. you pay a price. you lose 50% of your. genetic specific genetic heritage, but. the advantage is you stay ahead of the. parasites. So sex evolved to outwit the. parasites. And a huge part of what we're. seeing around us, and this is probably a. consequence at the low lowest level, base level, we've had a phenomenal boom.

in wealth since World War II. Phenomenal. We stored wealth everywhere, like in Harvard at a 53 billion um. endowment. Well, the parasites found the. wealth everywhere. Yeah. And they've. invaded like mad. That's a great. example. Parasites in academia are a. great example. What you're talking about. unearned legacy media. Yes. Science has. science has been invaded that way. The. political this is a major problem, you. know, and so how do you protect yourself.

against the parasitical exploiters? Well, you could recognize parasitical. behavior, right? when everything gets. chocked off to racism and white. supremacy, when they start using these. pjorives, they start throwing those. around for everything, you know, that's. that's one of the ways you recognize. you're like, "Oh, you're a parasite. You're not really doing science. You're. not really doing academics. You really. one of the hallmarks of of. identification from the clinical. literature for the cluster B types." And. so they're they have a parasitical.

element, histrionic, narcissistic, psychopathic, criminal, right? That's. cluster B. They use false claims of. victimization to manipulate. Yes. And so. this is a particularly pernitious. pathway because they parasitize empathy, right? And the left is unbelievably. susceptible to that because the left is. full of empathic people. And so those. who parasitize empathy have a field day. on the left. Right. Right. Because the. left is generally thought to be more.

educated, more compassionate, kinder, looking out for marginalized people. That's part of the ethics of the the. ethic is pretty straightforward. Anything that cries is a baby. It's. like, no, some things that cry are. monsters. Oo. Right. Right. Well, let. let's take the case of Nicola Sturgeon, the the Scottish prime minister, the. previous Scottish prime. minister. Any man who wants to can be a. woman. It's like, okay, any. man. You mean any man, do you? Yeah. Uh,

have you encountered the nightmare men? Oh, they don't exist. They're all. victims. Yeah. You just bloody well wait. till you encounter one. You'll change. your story very rapidly. And for the for. the naive and sheltered empaths of the. radical left, they're either. psychopaths, so they're wolves in sheep. clothing, or they're people so that are. so naive that the the uh what would you. say, Red Riding Hood's grandmother can.

definitely have his way with them. Yes, that's literally something that I use as. an example in my Netflix special. I said. that I I think there are people that. feel like they're trapped in in a. woman's body. And then there's also. people that are out of their. mind. They're crazy. And that all. throughout history, but but what I. pointed out all throughout history when. you wanted to make like a killer in a. movie scarier, you put them in a dress. like Norman Bates and Psycho, Silence of. the Lambs, and I used the Big Bad Wolf. I'm like, it's literally a wolf dressed.

up like a woman. Like that's literally. what it is. and they've somehow or. another completely abandoned this one. aspect of masculinity that's one of the. more terrifying is the predatory. pervert and they've given the predatory. pervert a privileged position. Right. Right. And. that's sin by the way. One of the. craziest things about it is they've.

completely. abandoned the idea of the pedophile and. then the monster and the sexual pervert. and the attacker, the assaulter, the. person who all when you give a guy, you. say all you have to do is say you're a. woman. Now you have access to whatever. women's spaces all the women's spaces. You could victimize them, you could. fight them, you could beat them in. sports, you could dominate them in all. games. It's bizarre. bizarre that no. one's caught on to that. And that's the.

that's for sure that's the weirder. that's the more cultlike and even you. could say religious aspect of leftist. thinking. It's a it's an original sin. Eve clutches the serpent to her breast. It's like that's a serpent. It's poison. You don't get to love it. Right. Right. It's a monster. Right. Right. It's a guy. wearing a dress with an erection in the. women's room. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or or. worse. Yeah. or worse. Or worse or a lot. worse. Yeah. Well, right. And and you.

know, there there are no shortage of. naive people who've never really. encountered a monster and have no. imagination for it. And but there's also. people that are willing to justify the. monster's behavior because the monster. is a part of a protected class now. Yeah. Well, that's part of that. The cluster B types use proclamation of. victimization to parasetize. That's part. of their clinical pathology. And they're. poor me. I get to do anything. And. they're so common. Yeah, that's what's. really crazy. And why is it that.

academia is overwhelmed by people like. this? Is it because it's it's vulnerable. to to parasites? Sure, why not? It was a. storehouse of unguarded value, you know, without any religious. principles. Well, also, yeah, there's. that, too. And and with and and with no. real gatekeepers, right? So, like the parasite problem is. a very deep problem. So, so I can even maybe I can even give. you an example of that. This is a hard. one, but I'll.

try. In the Pinocchio movie, this this. also happens in Jonah, the story of. Jonah. Remember, Jeppetto ends up in a. whale. It's like, what the hell? There's. no explanation for that in the story. It's like he's out looking for Pinocchio. and now he's in a whale. Well, a whale. is a giant. carcass, right? And so, when something. dies, its spirit, what would you say? Its spirit is then in embedded in a. carcass. That's a good way of thinking. about it. That's why Pinocchio has to go. into the belly of the whale to free.

Japetto and finish his transformation is. that when things deteriorate, right, you. have these carcasses lying around with. their dead spirits. The spirit of what. gave rise to them is still inside there. And the job is to go into the carcass. and to revitalize the spirit that. produced it and not to parasetize it. Right. Boy, I don't know how you got. that out of Pinocchio and the whale. Well, I try to follow you on this one. I'm like, wow. Jeppetto ends up.

languishing in the whale. Right. Right. So, imagine that there's a spirit in the. universities that gave rise to these. great great storehouses of value and. that spirit has disintegrated and now. it's inside the the storehouse. That's a. good way of thinking about it's inside. the storehouse. Your job as someone who. wants to become real is to go into the. storehouses of value that have been. bequeathed to us by the past and to. discover and revitalize the spirit that. gave rise to them, not to parasetize. them. And when they parasitize, they.

strip them to their bones and there's. nothing left. And they do it obviously, right? There's plagiarism. There's all. these different and and all that stuff. False scientific papers. Yes. And all. that stuff all that gets swept under the. rug because the people that are doing it. are part of the protected class. Yeah. So they protect the parasites like this. is my lamprey. Like don't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is my baby. Like the woman. from Harvard. They fired her but they. gave her an equal paying job. It could. also be Joe and might as well get in. trouble for this too. Let's go.

Well, because women are more. agreeable. They're le more prone to. manipulation by psychopaths because. their primary ethos. is is nurturing. Yeah. For a naive. woman, every victim is a. baby. It's like fine, 90% of them are. victims. You could even say that about. criminals. You go to a run-of-the-mill. prison and there's going to be people in.

there and you heard their lives. You. think, "Oh my god, no wonder." Right. And then there's another core group. that's like, "Oh, I see. I see who you. are. You're you're. uh if I saw one if I saw inside your. skull for five seconds, I'd have. post-traumatic stress disorder. I never. recover." Right. Those people don't. exist. It's like, "Oh, ho." Yeah. Oh, yes. They exist. Yeah. They exist. Yeah. Yeah. And they're and they're very good.

at crying like infants. Yeah. Right. And then the mothers, the. naive mothers come flooding out. The. women, the women dominated the. universities from the 1960s onward. It's. like. in come the parasites and they're. enabled. And what are they enabled by? Fascinating things to me is when. parasites are confronted and they laugh. Like one of the the things about. academic parasites when you challenge. their beliefs, you that's contempt. You don't you don't.

know what you're talking about. I saw. this with the anti-semitism on campus. thing when women were these women were. confronted by these statements like. death to the Jews on campus and whether. or not this this is hate speech. And I. saw it with uh I believe it was Josh. Howley was uh the woman was he was. saying some women can give birth and and. some some men can give birth as well. like some men have period like this this.

kind of like and with I guess you're. you're this line of questioning is very. transphobic and opens people up to. violence with a with a laugh with a. laugh and a smile a diminishing of your. position by mockery contempt. Yeah. when. what they're saying doesn't make any. sense to anybody rational, but. they are so they're so embedded in this. system that they really believe that. they have the kind of control over. Congress that they have over their.

classmates there. This is like standard. behavior for them mocking and dismissing. other ideas that are counter to theirs. Right. Well, and and there's plenty of. reward for that disseminated in the. universities. Yes. Right. And so that's. part of their How do you fix that with. Peterson Academy? No, I'm dead serious. Look, it's not like I'm thrilled about. the fact that Harvard is having a war. with Donald Trump. And I'm less thrilled. with the fact that I hope Donald Trump. wins. I worked at Harvard. It was a.

great place. I'm not happy at all that. these institutions have become what. they've become. And if I could see a way. forward to revitalizing them, then but. what are you going to do? Like the. administration took over the. universities and and parasitized the. tuition fees and the tax dollars. Then. the woke mob parasitized the. administration and here we are. And what. are you going to do about that? All. these tenur professors who are.

progressive and they're way less. progressive than the administrators. You. going to fix that? How how even in principle I don't see it. how what so what we decided to do we've. been working on this for 10 years is. like well what do universities do well. they they educate they offer lectures. they allow they have a place where. people can congregate they help people. mature they explain the world they. encourage people to aim up they teach.

people to write my son runs this essay. app we're trying to teach kids to Right. We're integrating that with Peterson. Academy so they can learn to think like. that's our that's our solution. Yeah. Um. will it work? The world's pretty dynamic. place. It's working real well at the. moment, you know, and well, people need. some sort of an alternative to that. system. If you recognize what that. system is, especially if you're.

participating in it and you you're. you're opposed to all of it and you're. trapped in it and it is a a it's vital. to your success that you accept some of. it. How else can you get through? How. how can you get this degree and maintain. some level of sovereignty over your mind. and your ideas? Like it's it's a. horrible trap. And I've met a lot of. people that I think are very rational, reasonable people that get at least some. of that stuck in their head. Oh yeah. Oh.

yeah. Well, when we we did some research. trying to see what predicted politically. correct authoritarianism was the last. piece of research I did before my. research lab, you know, ceased to be a. viable entity, let's say. um what. predicted so politically correct. authoritarianism was that like. hypercompassionate leftism but conjoined. with willingness to use force to put the. doctrines forward force and fear. So. it's tyrannical compassion that's.

exactly that. What are the predictors? Low verbal intelligence. That's the. first one. Second one was being female. The third one was having a feminine. temperament. The fourth one was ever. having taken even one politically. correct course. Wow. Yeah. Right. And so. I've thought that through for a long. time. It's like, well, what's what's the. female um relationship? Because that's. that's a crucial one. The the female. dominated disciplines are the most woke. by far. Why? So I think it's because of.

that basic ethos of compassion. All who. cry are babies. Well, look, that's the. right default for women. Yeah. You know, like wise women, my wife is one of these. women. She was a very good mother. She. never thought adult men were babies. Like one of the things that's quite. striking about my wife is that if you're. a useless man, she doesn't feel sorry. for you. You're not a baby. Now, she's. really good at taking care of babies. And so, she got to be she's she's.

discriminating in her. empathy. And we're in a situation now. where people think that indiscriminate. empathy is a virtue. That's Eve's sin. See, see, Eve, literally, Eve wants to. put the feminine ethos at the top of the. hierarchy of value that replaces God, right? And that causes the fall. And. then Adam, he's such a cuck that that's. exactly it is that he goes along with. her. He doesn't stand up and tell her.

that maybe she shouldn't be listening to. poisonous serpents. He doesn't. He he. consumes with her what she delivers so. that she'll be his friend because you. know how useful men like that are. And. then when the fall happens, he complains. to God that he made that God made Eve. and cursed him with her. That's the. story. So it's not it's not just women. It's and we we got to get this straight. Women with their drive towards. indiscriminate compassion so that even. the serpents are their children. It's.

men too who won't say they always say. yes dear whatever whatever you want yes. weak men weak men weak men who enable. the who don't help the women set. boundaries now you got to do that as a. man you know like when you have a when. you and your wife have a baby for the. first nine months every time the baby. cries it's right right you respond to a. baby's cries as if it's right 100% of. the time because human infants are so.

dependent and utterly unable to fend for. themselves. So that sets up a very. powerful feminine dynamic. It's like if. it cries, take care of it. Okay? So what. are the men for? It's like if it. cries, take care of it. Accept that. That's a false cry. And you see that. with kids. They'll start playing with. that by the time they're nine or 10. months old, right? Yes. Of course. And. so you differentiate. It's like, oh no, that's not a baby. That's a snake. Well,

are you sure it's not a baby? It's like, nope. Nope. Snake for sure. Snake. Poisonous snake, in fact. Right. Well, I'm feeling pretty sorry for it. It's. like, save your compassion for the truly. needy and leave the snakes to me, right? And Adam doesn't do that. Is it a. function of a society that's almost I. don't want to say too successful and. empathetic and there's too much. abundance that you have more of this. crying look um no but you have more.

parasitical behavior right why. everyone's got pretty comfortable. because we've been in a high trust. society for a long time it's like oh. everybody's trustworthy it's like no a. few people in a few countries are. trustworthy most of the time and that's. really hard. Right. Right. And there's. stringent. preconditions. Right. So, everyone's. trustworthy and now there's all these. piles of wealth flying around. everywhere. It's like parasite dream,

especially when it's unguarded. Yeah. And so, it's enabled by the women and. unguarded by the men. And both are at. fault, right? And that you see that in. the Genesis account, too. It's like Eve. clutches the serpent to her breast, but. Adam fails to help her distinguish. plenty of these parasitic men as well. Oh yeah, there well they're the worst. There's they're the worst men cry victim. and look for sympathy from women. That. was there was a famous mass murder no a. serial killer who did that. The the. lawyer very Bundy Ted Bundy. You know.

what his trick was? He had a VW if I. remember correctly. He had a cast that. he could take on and off. So he put his. hood up. Maybe it wasn't a VW. Put his. hood up because his car didn't work. And. he did it around places where he knew. there were young women. And then he. enticed them to stop because, well, poor. Ted because he's crippled and his car. doesn't work. And then and then well and. then the woman learned very painfully. the difference between a monster and a.

baby, right? Brutal. He was a bad guy. There. are some bad people. And a fair number. of them like to dress in women's. clothing, let's say. Yeah. Yeah. That's really uncomfortable. uncomfortable for people if they have. this idea that's embedded in their. consciousness about what's going on to. accept that reality. Of of course it's. in fact accepting that when that reality. is thrust upon you unawares you develop. post-traumatic stress disorder. Right?

Because it's naive people who encounter. malevolence develop PTSD. That's the pathway. Yeah. Yeah. So, if. you want to make your children. susceptible to PTSD, like all these kids. that are triggered by everything, make. them extremely. naive and then let them encounter. malevolence, right? Because you're. supposed to teach them to handle. serpents, right? Right. To identify them. and handle them. And that means they. have to learn about the nature of the. world and the girls to differentiate.

between snakes and babies. Yeah. Right. Right. And babies and men. And the man who worms his way into your. dreams because he's he's a dependent. infant. He's a snake and and and your. sympathy is wasted on him. Yes, there. certainly are. Man, I tell you those. riots that used to gather around me, you. know, when bas that was mostly 2017. before I stopped speaking at. universities mostly. Um the women were.

pretty bad. harpy city, man. And this. self-righteous feminine toxic compassion. just screeching at the top of its lungs. But the men that were with them, oh my. god, I didn't even I didn't want to be. within three feet of them. You know, it's like, I'll be your friend. Yeah. You know, you see those people on the. net talking to children. I'll be your. friend. When your family abandons you, I'm here for you. You know, they don't. understand. Not like me. We could be. closer than anybody has been with.

you. That just barely scrapes the. surface of awful. Like awful is a long. long ways down. Yeah. So, so part of. what's happened in the universities and. you know it's a terrible thing to say. Well, they there's a lot of things. Storehouse of wealth, radical increase in the number of. students. served, radical feminization of the.

institutions and weakness on the part of. the men who should have been guardian of. the gates. All of that. And is it. repable? I don't think so. Jesus. I. think once the parasites once the. parasites have the corpse, what are you. going to do? How are you going to rev. you're going to bring Lazarus back from. the dead? You know, I don't think so. I. think it's time for something new. You. need academic dewormer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what critical. thinking was supposed to be, Joe. So,

you think it needs. to So, something needs to be emerge like. your academy as an alternative. Well, the thing is it already is emerging, right? Because the universities you of. course they're going to do this as they. spiral downward. They're going to turn. to cost cutting. Well, they're not going. to cut the administration obviously. because they make the decisions about. who's going to be cut. So, they're going. to turn to lowcost alternatives to. having courses. And so, they're already.

doing that. Let's put our courses. online. Well, fair enough. Except. they're terrible. They're terrible. We got the best professors and the best. production quality. And so, and you've. designed it for online versus just. having%, right? We have a plan mapped out. You. know, we'll have a full the full. equivalent of a. four-year distribution of courses. We'll.

have that within, we think, two years, something like that. Four new courses a. month. At the moment, we're putting out. 32 hours of original content a month. It's. very well people can go look. It looks. great and that's because it's great. Michaela and her husband, they're unbelievably picky about the. professors and about everything. They. watch the social media, they watch the. look, they watch the images, they watch. the ads. You know, we're trying to make. do everything 100% and then we're trying.

to make it as inexpensive as possible. Soon we're raising money because we want. to translate it into multiple languages. because wouldn't it be lovely to offer. that to the developing world? Sure. With. free market economics instead of Marxist. economics so that people could learn to. be entrepreneurs. That'd be great for. Africa, especially if we could get. energy prices down. Then maybe everybody. could be rich and and not just. materially rich, right? Because that's. not enough. If you're materially rich.

and you're spiritually poor, your money. just serves to destroy you and fast. So. that's not wealth, right? And Yeah. Right. You know that. You've met people. that that that's happened, too. Oh, yeah. A lot. Money is not the cure for. poverty. No, you're naive if you think. that. No, it's not the cure for happy. for being discontent either. But it does. offer you freedom if you use it. correctly. And that opportunity and. opportunity. So it give you some relief.

from stress which can give you some kind. of happiness but it's not the goal. No. No. Well, it has to be put in it has to. be put in an ethical framework or it'll. just look money is opportunity. That's a. way of thinking about it. And if you're. going to the devil and you have money, you just go to the devil faster. I saw. that lots of times in my clinical. practice. And you know, maybe if you're. aim if you're aiming upward, then money. can be a force multiplier. And it can be. you know you can make a good you can you. can establish a solid institution.

that's provides mentorship and. opportunity for people and actually. that's more that's the most fun to do. that. It's by far the most fun to do. that to make something of genuine value. Why wouldn't you do that? Only if you. were cynical and and unable you why not. make something that works. That's a. that's much more entertaining all things. considered. And so, and we're trying to. do this with ARC and it's going real. well. You know, and you were very. helpful there, too. You know, that.

podcast that we did, there were lots of. reasons that the climate apocalypse. narrative has been falling radically. apart, but that podcast that you and I. did was definitely one of them. You. know, and I've interviewed a lot of good. scientists who they're not climate. skeptics, you know, that's a stupid. term. And Lombberg's a good example of. that. It's like climate denier is right. up there with vaccines. That's such a. manipulative phrase. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, you're like the Nazis who object to. Jews being baked." That's your argument, is it? Really? That's your argument, you.

scum rat. You're You're going to use. that as a moral lever. That's your level. of ethos. That's your argumentation. You're going to take the worst slur you. can possibly imagine, and you're going. to use it to devastate someone's. reputation publicly because you don't. have a leg to stand on because you're. the kind of tyrant who uses fear to. monger power. That's you. There's a. psychological interpretation of the. climate apocalypse scandal and it's if. it and it's killing it's it's it's it's.

destroying Germany. It's destroying the. UK. Didn't Germany like didn't they shut. down a bunch of their nuclear plants? Yeah. Yeah. And they replaced them with. league night coal, right? The dirtiest. burning coal. So they're in a situation. where they pollute more for more. unstable energy that's delivered by. tyrants. Well, well outsourcing their. industry to China, it's a very bad idea,

right? Who's building coal plants at a. rate that is so fast that everything the. West does to ameliate carbon is utterly. irrelevant. Utterly irrelevant. Yeah. And that's an uncomfortable truth that. these these climate cultists just don't. they don't address. You you they they. won't even entertain any information. contrary to the narrative. They won't. even let it in. Of course not because it. upsets the game. Not only that, most of. the people that are involved in the game. don't even understand the game. They.

they don't even understand what what's. really not just at stake, but the actual. facts that they're arguing for. Well, Carney's a good example of this in. Canada to return to that. Yeah, you. know, is he going to win? It seems like he's the polls certainly. indicate that. Yeah. And maybe with a. majority government and I can see why. Like Canadians were accustomed to having. everything go pretty well and we could. be morally superior to you Americans. because that was also fun. And we'll.

never and we'll never forgo that. opportunity and Trump has provided it in. spades in the last month. So, we look at. Carney and we don't pay any attention to. politics and we certainly don't read his. goddamn book. And so, we see someone who. looks like a banker from the 1990s when. everything was just fine in Canada and. Canadians were just as rich as Americans. and the whole country was stable and. peaceful and we think, well, you know, we kind of made a mistake on Justin and. turned out he was a little incompetent, a little narcissistic and uh maybe we. shouldn't have voted for him just. because he legalized marijuana because.

that's actually what brought him into. power the first time. And so, we kind of. made a mistake. Now look, we've learned. and we're not going to be fooled by. narcissistic pretenders. And Mark Carney. used to be governor of Bank of England, you know, and that's pretty good. That's. a pretty good resume. And it certainly. looks like. that. And yet he believes that 75% of. the fossil fuels in the world should be. left in the ground and that there's no. there's nothing that should guide your. purchasing decision by force other than. decarbonization. But it seemed to me, at.

least from aer observer from afar, that. Pierre was gaining steam and it looked. like he was going to win. Oh, and they. seem to have taken the two things. Well, two things happened. Trudeau resigned. Oh, yeah. The Liberals were headed for. extinction. It was going to be the worst. defeat of a governing party in Canada. ever. They might have lost their. official party status. So, it was they. were done. Well, they pivoted, brought.

in Carney, who'd been advising Trudeau. He's put himself up as an outsider, a a. competent outsider, a lot of private. private experience in the in the private. domain, you know, a steady hand at the. helm. It's like you were Trudeau's. economic adviser for 10. years. 10 years. And there's going to be. more of the same under you. And now. you're pretending to be an industrialist. even though you're one of the leaders, the world's leading authorities on DEI,

ESG, and net zero. That's Mark Carney. All you have to do is read his book, which people don't, of course, because. it's a book. You know, first three. chapters will do the trick. Well, now. either he's decided that every single. thing he ever believed was wrong right. to the core, and hasn't apologized or. let anyone know that, and now he's. actually Mr. industry, which is how he's. presenting himself to Canadians, or or he believes what he's always. believed. Or he's a wolf wearing. grandma's dress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He's a benevolent wolf. Well, that's. that's why the wolf wears grandma's. dress, isn't it? It's like there's no. one nicer than me. So, how does can. Canada correct course? Well, people either correct course by. waking up or by experiencing severe. pain. And it looks to me like we've. chosen the severe pain route. You know, um we already make 60 cents. We already. produce 60 cents to every dollar you.

Americans produce, even though we were. at parody 10 years. ago. And so. after four more years of Carney, we. could easily have that down to 50. cents. Spiraling housing prices, a lot. of social instability in Canada, especially since after October 7th. Do. you think that that's all my Jewish. friends in Toronto are terrified. Yeah, that's not fun. I don't like seeing. that. No, that's No, it's awful. It's. awful. And all those psychopaths who've.

been parading around their moral virtue. since October 7th. They're plenty. emboldened. Plenty. Yeah, plenty. And. know I'll give you a little example of. Canada. So we had the English leadership. debate week ago and uh the powers that. be um who organized the debate the. legacy media types with CBC radically. involved couldn't figure out how to. exclude rebel media you know that. right-wing news kind of tabloidy news. group from Canada Ezra Levant who's been.

buzzing about for 10 years causing. trouble like a like a right-wing tabloid. um journalist which is what he is well. they didn't want him in uh press scrum. for the leaders after the debate. So. they canled. it. They cancelled the journalists. interviews of the four leading. contenders for prime minister in Canada. because some right-wing tabloid. journalists, they've had a newspaper or. a media empire for 10 years. I don't.

care what you think of it. It's not the. point. The point is they. cancelled they canled the journalist. scrum after the English language debate. That's so and no one complained that. But that doesn't even make sense. Like. if you're in if you're a presidential. candidate and you're encount or prime. minister candidate and you're. encountering someone that has an. opposing perspective, you should have. really good answers. That's it. Oh,

look, if you're if your guy's leading, why ask questions? That's the legacy. media in Canada. It's the CBC, right? It's state funded, right? Right to the. core. 1.4 bill. Think about this, Joe. This is our bloody state media. It's so. funny. $1.4 billion in direct government. subsidy and $600 million in federal. advertising per year. $2 billion. Go to. the CBC website on YouTube. You look at. their last 20 videos. I'll guarantee. that not a single one of them has more. than 200.

views. Right? Which means the people who. made the video clips didn't watch. them. Right? For that's what you get for. $2 billion. Now everyone in Canada who's. older than. 55 watches legacy media media and and. polyv said he defund the CBC. So you can. imagine they're not exactly covering him. in a positive way. I watched the debate. where he kept getting talked over. Yeah. Yeah. Jag meat singh. Fascinating. He's. such fun with his pink turban. He's such. a fashion icon. Luckily, he's going to.

lose his own seat and his part is going. to be devastated. That's the socialists. They're going to be devastated so badly. that they won't have official party. status. But it's incredible to watch. that in Canada where I've always thought. at least your discourse is much more. polite. Yeah. Was. Yeah. Yeah. We've got a lot of there's a. lot of mopping up to do in Canada. Well, in our the country and. and you know the man who started the.

Reform Party in Canada, so that was the. populist end of the Conservative. movement 20 years ago, maybe a little. longer, eventually reunited with the. Conservatives. Ernest Manning or Preston. Manning, son of an Alberta premier. He. was premier of Alberta for like 40. years. He wrote an article in the Globe. and Mail, which was the it's the. Canadian liberal establishment. newspaper. And I mean liberal by the. classic, you know, old school small L. liberal centrist sort of newspaper. saying that Manitoba, Alberta, and.

Saskatchewan should have an immediate. constitutional convention immediately on. Carney's ascension to the throne. And. Quebec doesn't want pipelines traversing. its territory. And Quebec, one of the I. don't know if you noticed this, but one. of the participants in the debate was a. Canadian separatist. We literally have a. Canadian federal. party, federal, localized in Quebec, whose. stated intent is to break up the.

country. Hasn't that always been the. case with Quebec, though? For a good. while, it was provincial, right? I mean, they had a provincial party, like a. state party, right? Okay, fair enough. Have your state separatist party. It's. for your state. Oh, no. We want to have. a national party. We want to be. represented in the House of Commons as. separatists. Yeah. So the country is in. It's very sad and I was hoping they. could be the 51st state. Yeah. Well. then, well that's what h so two things.

back to that. That was the big one. Carney Carney showed up just in the nick. of time to save the burning damsel from. the train tracks or whatever the hell it. is. And the rhetoric and then Trump he. just timed it so badly and he didn't. know. He didn't know what what it would. do. He didn't know. But that's also. How do you not know that people. have national pride? Yeah. He He knew. that, but he didn't know what the. electoral consequences would be. He.

didn't know that that would shift them. to the liberals so radically. And he's. going to pay for that because. once Carney is elected, if that happens, Trump will not have a more seasoned. enemy in the West. boy. Right. Carney is. very well connected. Very. Especially in. Europe and the UK. Very well. So, and. and Europe and the UK is a mess. Yeah, you might say that. Oh, that's for. sure. We've highlighted all the arrests.

in the UK over social media posts and. most people have no idea. Constantine. Kissing is great with explaining all. that to people. It's so funny when he. compares it to Russia and he says how. many people got arrested in Russia. How. many think got people you got think got. arrested in the UK and most people are. oh none right? No 4,000 like what? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's unbelievable. There's. videos of the internet. You just see. this everywhere. So they've implemented. these 20 mph speed limits everywhere.

And so 20 m hour. Yeah. Yeah. Because. Joe, that's a bike. You don't really. need a car. Like what are you doing. that's so important that you need a car? Like if I have to go to a climate. meeting, well, I get a car. But the. peasants, they don't really need cars. They don't need heat either. Not Not. that much heat. Maybe they can stop. grandma from freezing. One of the. fascinating things about Bernie Sanders. and his anti- oligarch tour is they're. doing it on private jets.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, we. were in the UK not long ago for this art. conference and uh we rented a. truck and whenever it went over 20 miles. an hour, it beeped at you just like seat. belt thing beeped. Oh god. And then if. you if you go more than 2 miles an hour. of the speed limit and you get caught, then that knocks onethird of your. license off. If you do that three times, you don't have a license for a year.

Beep beep beep beep. Climate climate. knocking. Climate knocking. Yeah. Yeah. You can tell tyrants, Joe. They they use fear and and uh compulsion. and they hate comedians and cars, right? There's tyrant checklist. Hates. cars, check. No sense of humor, check. Uses fear, check. Uses force, check. Yeah. Psychopath. Right. I hate to end this on a bleak note, but.

let's end it on a positive note. Okay. Okay. So, what's positive? Um, young. people are flocking back to churches. across the. West and more to the conservative. churches. And the only thing we have to buttress. us into the future against the Islamists. and the Marxists and the nihilists and. the hedenists. is our return to our core traditions. Without that, we're done. And so that's.

happening and in big numbers. And so. that's really quite something. Um, the. back has been broken of the climate. apocalypse narrative. There's plenty of. mopping up to do, but half the people. know that there's something rotten in. the state of Denmark and that that. particular apocalypse is probably not. worth giving up all your freedoms for. Um, we've seen a lot of progress on the. ark front like a lot of the things that. we've been putting forward. the better.

story. So that's a return. to the foundations of Western. civilization that made our our society. the sort of place that dispossessed. people will go to voluntarily. Right? There's lots of people who are starting. to understand that that's seriously. worth preserving. Right? Energy. executives are waking up, as far as I. can see, to the fact that they could. help the world's poor in a serious way. And if they want to moralize, that would. be a if they want to act morally, that.

would be a good place to start. There's. lots of people who are working to. produce abundance. Your country, the US, you guys are unbelievably good at that. Way better than any other country in the. world. And you generally deliver in times of. crisis and you might just do that again. And so, and then I would say underneath. all that, you know, you said you you're. pretty happy to encourage people. You're. very happy when you hear that your show. has been helpful to people.

And there's lots of people who are. consciously trying to aim up and more. and more of them all the time. And if. enough of enough of enough people do. that, we won't need to learn through. pain. And we can bring abundance. everywhere in the world. and we can make the next 50. years an unparalleled success. And we. need we need the faith and courage of.

Joshua and Caleb to do that. Of course, the future is full of giants and. disasters. But if we aim up and we speak. the words of truth that make good order. out of chaos, then anything's. possible. So, all right. Beautiful. Always enjoy this. Always. enjoy our conversations. I appreciate. you very much. I appreciate our. friendship. It's been great knowing you. all these years and watching this crazy. journey that you've been on. I'm glad.

you're doing great. Yeah, Joe. Same. thing for you, man. Like, thanks a lot. And thanks for your help with Peterson. Academy, too. My pleasure. Very helpful. All right. Much appreciated. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].