Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe. Rogan podcast by night. All day. Um, you had a crazy [ __ ] life, man. Like a really crazy life. You spent so. to get everybody up to speed right from. the beginning, you spent 25 years. undercover working for the FBI in the. clan, Nazi organizations, and biker. gangs and then some. Yes, sir. What a.

crazy crazy life that is. What first of. all, how did you get how did you first. get started doing that? Uh, good. question. I grew up in South Carolina. Um, played ball, all that stuff. I I I. was always kind of a I mean, if you look. back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that's not it. You've had plenty. of people on this show that are complete. badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully. of bullies. I didn't I always looked out. I like the underdog. Um, I bounced in.

college. Uh, so I was already learning. that gift of gab um and fight techniques. and stuff like that. And then I got I. became a cop because when I was in. college, I took a course. I'm taking. electives. I went to college so I'd have. four more years to figure out what I was. going to do cuz I didn't know what I was. doing. Me too. Except partying. Except, you know, I did three years. I was good at partying. Um but uh I hit. an elective that was criminal justice. and man, I really liked it. Um.

psychology was always a strong thing for. me, but it took a backseat and I ended. up coming out with a major in criminal. justice and a minor in psychology. But. during those criminal justice courses, I. was like, at first, for a fleeting. moment, I said, I'm going to be an. attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney. And. then I realized I'd be a terrible. attorney. I said, because if I was the. defense attorney and they said they did. it, I would probably just walk up and. go, they did it, right? That's not going. to get me any clients. And if I was the. prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam.

Kenison and grabbing them and going, "Say it. Say it." You know, you did it. So, I'm like, "Yeah, it's probably not. the best role for me." and uh I did a. ride along with cops and uh the. department and that was it. But once I. got in to law enforcement, I was uniform. patrol for three years. Uh I was just so. fascinated with undercover. I don't know. what it was. I can't really remember. doing the book. I've tried to dive back. in. People ask, I don't really remember. I just know that I loved undercover.

movies, period. If it was a biker. undercover, I don't care how cheesy it. was. I love them all. Mhm. And then one. of my mentors at the sheriff's office, uh, he was actually the world's. strongest man in the late ' 80s after. Casmire. Oh, wow. He was a he was a. former Marine. Um, and big dude. And he. as a task force had gone on a task force. had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just I was I wanted to be a. biker. I grew up on motorcycles. And it. just started taking off from there. You.

got to think that biker gangs are. probably super suspicious of people. being undercover because it's such a. theme. It's been around, right? It's. been around forever. The stories of guys. infiltrating biker gangs. It's been. around forever. 40 plus years right now. Easy. Wow. Yeah. And then there's books. made. There's books made. They go to. court. They murder. Yeah. So, it was. right after the Vietnam War, right? That's when all the biker gangs really. believe. I think it goes back to world I. mean my my history's bad but I think it. goes back to uh to world war at least.

two right because all those the way it. goes everybody always asks what a 1enter. is and it goes back I think it's 1947. but it goes back to when uh your. veterans are getting out they have. nothing they're not they they had no. decompression back then they had no. plans or programs for them and they've. been out here living this rockish rowdy. life and now they're back in the states. and now they're supposed to just flip. and be like, "Right." So, they started. creating these clubs and they were doing.

some rockus and rowdy stuff and then it. was the president of the American. Motorcycle Association. They came out. and made this statement that said. something to the effect of, "Listen, 99%. of all motorcycle riders are good. law-abiding citizens. There's only 1%. that's bad." And they took that as a. badge of honor and said, "We're. 1enters." Wow. Yeah. Cool stuff. Cool. stuff. So, who was the first person to. infiltrate them? Do you know the history. of that? No, I don't. But, so it's been. going on forever. As soon as they found.

out, it's like it's been the case with. the mob. It's been the case with. everything. Brasco, you know. Yep. My my. mentor, one of my Really? Yeah. Joe. Pastel. Absolutely. Wow. He helped. certify me. I saw him probably within. the last six months or so. He graciously. he did a blurb on the book, too. Oh, wow. I call him boss man, you know. So, do you remember your first undercover. assignment? Uh yes. Yeah. What' you have. to do? Uh it was at the sheriff's office. So I. after three years of uniform, I make it.

uh to narcotics investigator. Well, you. got it's it's a tough crowd, but we're. funny, you know, but it's it's just like. a good military group or anything else. There's going to be a lot of ribbon and. stuff like that. So they they said, "Hey, you're going to. go buy some dope tonight." It's my first. time. Now granted, I bought weed and. stuff in high school and I was around. those groups. I never brought crack. cocaine. I was already probably 6'4 and. I probably was like 270 lbs. I I did not. look like I smoked. crack unless I just fell off the wagon.

just feel rec or I just started. Yeah. I'm I'm the vegan that shows up still. smelling like beef. You know, I just. stopped. Uh but they told me that, hey, it's real easy. You're just going to. roll down to this corner. It's a known. dra drug trafficking area. You're going. to roll down there, white boy. You're. going to roll down the window. They're. going to come up to you and say, what do. you want? And back then it was a 20. you. just get a rock. 20 bucks for a rock and. say, "All you got to do is hold that 20. and say, "You just want a 20." Jo, I. drove down there. I know I I was I know. I was scared because I was out of my.

comfort zone, but I was also scared to. make a fool of myself in front of the. narcotics guys and gals that were. training me. And I roll down the street. and I pull up and they come running up. to the window. What you want? What you. want? I crack the. window. I crack it about this far and I. stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a. vending machine. And I'm like, I want a. 20, you know. And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back. to the cracked window. He's like, roll. the damn window down. And I'm like, my.

bad. It's probably like a sliver of. soap. Who knows? But that was my first. drug by first undercover. Like legit. And so what was the protocol like? You. had to buy the drug and then what do you. do? It depends. Uh case by case basis. We may want to make numerous buys on. that corner. try to come in with the. jump out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to to make buys on the. low-level people on the corner selling. who are probably most likely users. At. least was my experience. So maybe like.

every five crack rocks they sold, they. can peel one for themselves. Um, and. maybe we want to get them build a case. on them, kind of try to climb it up, and. then find out who's the distributor. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by. Visible. Is your wireless full of stuff. you didn't sign up for, you don't need, or don't understand? Visible gives you. everything you want from wireless with. nothing you don't. No confusing plans, no hidden fees, no nonsense. With. Visible, you get unlimited data, talk,

and text powered by Verizon's 5G. network. Plus, unlimited hotspots. included. Plus, they're an all digital. wireless service, so you can easily. switch within a matter of minutes from. your phone, either in their app or. online. Ready to switch? Get the Visible. plan with unlimited wireless for just. $25 a month, every month. Taxes and fees. included, so you know exactly what. you're paying every single month. Don't.

think wireless could be more. transparent, so visible? Well, now you. know. Switch today at. visible.com/rogan. Terms apply. See. visible.com for plan features and. network management details. And that's. that was like the state and local. Um we. you hit it. Everybody's a little. different, but three buys, hit them with. a search warrant kind of thing, something like that. And. ultimately, so when you're doing this, um, you're you're you're buying, you're.

trying to get a develop some sort of a. relationship or an understanding of how. this thing goes down. How do you get to. who's selling it to them? Do you have to. arrest them first? You can can't or you. can do there's all kinds of ways, but. you could do like a wall off. In other. words, not let everybody see us, pick. you off, you know, so you don't get. burned, bring you in, talk to you, and. this is what we got on you. We're trying. to figure out who it is. And it's just. traditional law enforcement. You're. trying to find more intel and work your. way up and you offer them a community or. something like that. Depends. Some.

people are some people do it out of the. goodness of their heart. Really? Yeah. It's I mean it's rare. Uh but I mean you. can do it. Hey, I'm patriotic. I want to. help clean this up. These people are. trying to sell me dope. I don't like. them. I can go buy it for you. Uh a lot. of times we're paying a source. Um or. they could be working off a charge. It. could be part of their plea agreement. So this is your first one. you get. comfortable doing that and then how. often are you doing this? I don't know. I mean, we could come in, let's just say.

there's six investigators on Northern or. Southern Command Narcotics in Greenville. County. You you might be one of my. partners and we come in and you go, "Hey, I got a source. He's going to go. make a buy tonight." You might hop in. the car with him. It just happens. It. gives I mean, it's almost a daily thing. And so, you develop your skills doing. this. You get real good at being. undercover. And then, how do you move on. to the big boys? How do you move on to. biker gangs, Nazis? I got hired by the. FBI. Wow. And was it specifically. because you were good at undercover [ __ ].

or No, you see a picture of me. I had to. This is me, but for the academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin, fuzzy mustache. Can't go past the. crease of your lip and tight. You go get. your haircut at the PX in Quantico. It. was usually foreign ladies uh that that. were cutting your hair. And no matter. how I explained what I wanted, I got the. same haircut every time. You take it up. a little bit here and not so much here. Like, oh yeah, yeah. You're like, all. right, there you go. I guess this is. what we're doing. But one thing I.

noticed in the at the state level was we. would all go back then, the South. Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in. Columbia, South Carolina. So, we would. go there um and get certified. But in. your county, I mean, how many ways can I. shave? I'm in the same county and you're. going out here making buys. How many. times can I change my car, change my. outfit, change my facial hair, the hair. on my head until everybody starts. knowing I'm a narc, right? You know, um. cuz when you're in that local.

environment and I mean I'm talking. Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might. be a little bit different or New York. City, but you're going to court a lot. and people are seeing you in court and. then so how do you roll out there? So a. lot of it turns into just running. sources. Um, to me, uh, I believe. developing and running sources is. handinhand with Undercover because other. than them not being a bonded law. enforcement officer, uh, and and I don't. have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up.

and going in to get the evidence. So, a. lot of it, uh, over the last many years. with the, uh, defund the police and the. and the black eye, it's hard to recruit. It's hard enough to get people to fill. the uniform slots. Uh so you really. don't have anybody doing undercover. Um. most of most of your smaller departments. that I've taught or talked to or learned. from is uh they're just running sources. really. So this all stopped during. defund of the police like the George. Floyd times. Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah.

It's the pendulum swings, right? Um, or. it could be that because generations are. different these days, people come to. apply and they've got felons on their. record and we're like, "Bro, you can't. you can't be a cop. You got a felon on. your record." You know, but I remember. thinking, wouldn't it be kind of cool if. South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy. had all of the certified undercovers in. some type of database where it says, "Hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you. know, riding motorcycles, can go in a. biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this,

that, and the other. Maybe Charleston. County needs somebody. Wouldn't that be. cool if I could just shoot down there. and and make buys for Charleston County, but go back then that way nobody knows. me in Charleston County?" Right? And. when I got in the FBI, that's kind of. what they do. You get certified in the. FBI and you I mean you can go around the. world. So what was your initial job in. the FBI? The you are a case agent. When. you get hired, you're the only. responsibility you have uh really is you. are a case agent and that means you.

investigate, you do your own cases. Uh I. did that the entire career. Even when I. was doing undercover, I was still a case. agent. But I uh I went through the. academy. I got New York City as my first. office and New York is the largest. office. So they put you kind of like on. a rotation. You don't just go straight. to a squad. You're going to be like they. don't want you to learn the city. They. want you to learn the ins and outs of. having a placard and the bus lane and. all that stuff or just how to figure out. how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel. when six lanes go like that, you know.

Um but eventually I went through the. rotation and I got placed on the. Colombian Drug Squad. So there then. people start learning you were certified. undercover at a state level and this. that and the other. So then there might. be something like say LA takes off a. 3,000 and we're talking like 2001 is. 2,000 somewhere in there. So they take. off say 3,000 lbs of weed in LA and it. was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, "Man, can you.

send us all the stuff?" They're they're. cutting leads to us saying, "Hey, it was. supposed to go to this address, but we. got to build the exact replica box." And. it depends on the US attorney working. the case. They may want assistant United. States attorney. They may want to just. us deliver it, and that's good enough. Some may want us to deliver it, pull. away, and then they've got a hidden. switch or something that notifies us. when they open it just to make that case. tighter. So, I started doing cameos on. stuff like that. And then uh and then I. landed an undercover, which I don't.

really talk about in the book cuz it's. classified. And we are coming up on 25. years, which is usually when they. declassify them. It's kind of been. outed, but I just don't talk about it. cuz I don't want to end up in the box, the the lie detector, and have somebody. beating me down. But I landed that. undercover. And after about 30 days in. San Antonio, I became they gave me. another 60-day extension and I became. the primary. And because I was there. full-time working undercover, they. transferred me to the San Antonio. division. So, the first undercover gig,

what was your like what was your job. like? What were you what were you. pretending to do? The classified one again is classified. Okay. But I will say this, I was a. security guard. Can you imagine being a. cop with a cool uniform with a real gun. on your hip and now I'm making it into. the FBI and I'm working third shift as a. not at the museum, you know, with a. flashlight. Oh wow. But I wanted to get. my foot in the door of the undercover. program and sometimes it was easier to.

get a slot in the undercover school if. you were already in or slated for an. undercover. M and so how so you. eventually work your way up to probably. more and more dangerous and complicated. assignments. What happens at least in my my. experience what happened with me is I. get certified. Our certification school. is very very intense. Uh I mean I don't. know what they're doing now but I'm. 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's. 2 weeks no days off. Huge on sleep.

deprivation. Not going to give away all. the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft. reasons, but let's just say that. uh I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I. started roleplaying an assistant at the. school. I probably missed a handful of. schools up until the day I retired. Um. never 100% graduation rate. I don't I. don't know of any 100% graduation. graduation rate before I got into the. program. Um and it's not hazing. You get.

20 slots. Uh, so it's four groups of. five and generally it goes like you get. some trainings during the day and then. we're running scenarios and we're. putting you into live stuff, but at day. three and four when you're really. hurting for. sleep, I've seen people nut out and I. and minor in psych. I I didn't think I. would see that because some of them I. might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT. team together. Maybe I know you as a. case agent and you're squared away. But. you go to the UC school and after about.

three days of no sleep and not getting. your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in, I one of my. buddies walked in, he looked like he'd. been raped by a tribe. I I w he walked. in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined. up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. out. I'm like, "Are you okay?". And uh some people it's. just I would say that the. reason the training is like that it's. not hazing. It's just so we don't lose. anybody. We try to make it as real as. you can. Well, you got to find out who's.

going to crack. Yeah. And think of. this. In a real scenario, not all. undercovers are like this, but in the. ones I would usually do, there's going. to be a lot of times with no sleep. My. skill set led me not to Wall Street. It. didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't. lead me to the mafia club unless I was. standing in the corner and I was musled. for the mafia guy. Unled me to the woods. and what you already mentioned crazy. crazy ass methheads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back.

and role play and that's when people. start kind of seeing and you're trying I. mean you're trying to make a name for. yourself. Um, I wasn't getting calls. because on the paper I'm a white guy. with no foreign language. But about. every week or so, I would call the. undercover unit and be like, "Hey, you. got anything? Hey, it's big country. You. got anything?" More medium now. But I, you know, I could even be little country. at this point, you know, but I'd be. like, "Hey, you got anything for any. rednecks with no foreign language?" And. I'd just wear them down until they'd. laugh and then they finally asked me to.

come to the school. And once you do the. school, now there's season undercovers. coming back. Um, and they're not only. there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for. cases in their own divisions. And that's. where I kind of started getting getting. into some things. It has to be one of. the most exciting kinds of law. enforcement. I for me, Absolutely. It. has to be so crazy. So, we're gen I. mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies. Yeah. That's.

got to be a a gigantic rush. Yeah. their own to us. I've talked to a few. guys that have done that kind of work. and they always speak of it with sort of. fond memories of how crazy it is. It's. weird. It's like it's a very particular. type of person that would want to put. themselves in that highly stressful. adrenaline charged situation where you. know any mistake and they find out who. you really are, you're dead. Could be. Yeah. Yeah. Now you made me second guess. my career. Only thing seems like it.

worked out. Okay. I'm It's cash now. I'll call Cash. Hey, you think I could come back in? What was. the first one that you got, the first. assignment that you got? We're like, "Oh. boy, this is big leagues." That was the. outlaw's case. I'd already done some. undercovers uh again in the FBI. I'd. done several street level things or. numerous, whatever, uh at the state. level. Um but I I was doing a couple of. cases in the FBI and they were smaller. you know, maybe it was supposed to be.

interstate transportation of stolen. goods and it turned into a public. corruption case. But when I landed the. outlaws case, that was that was my big. first big and probably one of the. biggest I did. So, how does that go? How. how did that start? Um, I'm not a smart. man. So, that's how it. started. Why do you do this, Scott? I. go, I'm not smart. I am stupid. Uh, I'm. a glutton for punishment and my last. name is Payne, you know. Uh in that case. they did they'll do canvases um a lot of.

times. So I was an undercover. coordinator. Every division has an. undercover coordinator. So you are the. front line on all things covert and. you're the liaison between headquarters. and that field office. Um so if I had a. case come up I may already know you or. whoever and be like hey I'll just put a. text out to you. You interested? Or we. may just send out a canvas. And then a. canvas comes from headquarters and goes. to every undercover coordinator. and if. it gets to the point to where no. certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureauwide canvas.

and see what we can get. I can't. remember exactly if somebody called me. on that one. I'm pretty sure I don't. remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been. Well, you fit the bill. Well, yeah. Yeah, you. look like a outlaw biker. It depends. A. sliking, whatever. Yeah, it depends. See, that's what a lot of people I'll. get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, my. my mentors, my peers, people I've been. blessed to mentor. Some people come up. in the office, very good friends,

unbelievable agents. I mean, brainiacs, awesome. And they'll be like, "Man, I. can never do what you do. My beard would. be down to here, whatever." Tatted up. Um, and I'm like, "Well, don't do me. What do you What's your background?" And. they're like, "Well, I was an. accountant." And I'm like, "With who?". Before before they I was accountant with. Disney or whatever. I was this. I was a. lawyer. Well, you be you. I can. I'm. not. Somebody's probably gonna be pissed. because they're gonna say it's trade. craft. But listen, I could bring you in. um and you just walk into the group. I'm.

in the primary. I've already laid all. this stuff out. It's a chess game. We're. always trying to stay four or five moves. ahead or master of puppets. I'm just. trying to connect with people and work. work the scene. But you come in and you. dress as an accountant and you talk like. an accountant and then you walk out. You're you. It's real, right? So, so. there's roles for all sorts of different. types of personalities and life skills. Yeah. And I'm like, you might see. something where they say, "I need a. person this tall that speaks this.

language that does this and knows this.". But what are you trying to do? Essentially, the FBI works everything. Um, and if if a target if we have. predication or predicated target or. there's information coming in about. somebody doing something. nefarious, if we want to do an. undercover, how do how do I get close to. you? I mean, what do you find. attractive? Usually, it's money. In the. criminal world, it's green, right? You. can see the Mexican mafia working with. the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. They.

hate each other, but they love green. And one needs guns and one needs dope. and you know it all in the criminal. world. But for that case uh I went up I. got interviewed um by of course the FBI. um there were task forces there DEA was. there ATF was there and they had been. working this case for a while and. generally this is the way it would work. for me on these long-term type. undercovers. The case team's been.

working this for a long time. They a. year plus they've been building. intelligence. Now they've got some. evidence already, maybe a seizure of. dope here, report of a carjacking here, but to get that airtight case and to. find out what's really going on. Now. they're at the point to where they can. use the investigative technique, which. is undercover. And uh we came up with a. plan. Um and and I went I went in cold. I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold. bump, but uh I went into a bar that they.

frequented. I went there when they. weren't there. It was a strip club. I. used to bounce at strip clubs. In the. book, I make a a joke uh cuz I call them. a gentleman's club, but then I say. that's an oxymoron. cuz like everyone I've been in, there's. not a lot of gentlemen in there, and. that includes me back in the whatever. days they were. But I knew how they. work. So, I went in there and I just. started hanging out and I of course this. accent in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm.

getting noticed as soon as I start. talking. Where the hell are you from? And I kind of worked that and started. working the bar doing what I do. Not. everybody has their own way. Um, and let. me say this since it's at the beginning. Listen, there for me, I want people to. know it comes from a humble spot. There. are men and women out there that have. done way more undercovers than me. They. have been through more harrowing things. than me. I already said I've got. mentors. I've got peers. I've got people. I've been blessed to mentor. Um, some of. them don't want to talk. Uh, some of.

them haven't had the opportunity. So, just know it's coming from a a love kind. of place. Got it. So, when you say you. work in the bar, what do you mean? You. just like making friends with people. there? What I did last night here in. Austin? Same thing. I Is it like old habits die. hard? Yeah. I just walk out like, "Hey, man. How's it going?" Yeah. You know, it's like catch and release. like. pretending. Yeah. Still working your. Yeah. Working your gab. Yeah. That's. interesting. So, you're always working. your skill set even though you're not on. the job anymore. Yeah. I know, right? Uh.

I love connecting with people. I don't. care whether you're smart, stupid, big, you know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, doesn't matter. And that's one thing I. do miss about the job. I miss getting. called out at 2 in the morning for the. craziest of the crazies. and you show up. to do an interview and and essentially I. befriend you and you either confess or. we find out you really weren't doing. anything. I do remember one night, this. wasn't undercover, but they call me. because towards the end of my career I. was doing nothing but mainly domestic. terrorism. And they call me, they go,

"We got one down here. He's white. supremacist. He's assaulted a cop. This. that and the other." Well, I get down. there. It's like 3:00 4 in the morning. now. I do my spill. I'm not screaming at. the guy, "Man, you need something to. drink. Here, man. You look cold. Here's. a Coke." So tell me about what happened. I'm not here for this other stuff. I'm. just And I start talking. Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this. guy's not a white supremacist. He's a. sovereign citizen. Um, and he's just. anti-government. Pro-sheriff elected, but anti-government. Sovereign citizens. I really can't stand to deal with him.

It's it's just it's like absurdity to. the max. Explain sovereign citizens to. people. They You see it all over. YouTube. They they don't like they get. pulled over and they don't I don't need. a driver's license. I'm in commerce. I'm. in transit. If they touch you, well, that's rape. They think they've. gotundred I don't I'm gonna forget it, but it's like 175 $250,000 being held by. the government for each person. It's. crazy. They'll start putting leans on. people. People put on trainings. So, when it first started happening, a cop.

pulls you over and they see like this. thing signed in blood and the paperwork. looks legit, but I never got that. training. Is this legit? You know, I. guess I can't pull this guy over. Then. you start diving in. You start getting. the training, they go, "These people are. full of crap." And you then you see the. cops popping the window and dragging. them out of the car. You're still going, but this guy was a sovereign citizen. He. had a brother. And we're we're talking. and and he's telling me this stuff and. the Constitution and the Declaration of. Independence. And I'm like, "Yeah,

yeah." And I said, "But but how do you. know that's what the forefathers meant. when they signed that?" And he said, "Cuz I was there, son." Oh, boy. And. that's when I. went, "Oh, he's not just a cyber. citizen. He's a cook. He's crazy. Why. did it take me this long to find out?". He said, "I was there." Yeah, I was like. this. He goes, "Cuz I didn't miss a. beat." I go, "How do you know?" Cuz I. was there, son. And I went there. Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or. five times. Oh. And I'm like, "And and.

and you got this life this time. You got. the one you're living right now this. time." Well, you're talking to me at 4. in the morning. You look like you've had a rough life. I. mean, I I would, you know, if I was. going to buy into, you know, reincarnation, I'd want to come back as. maybe like my mom's dog or something. like that, you know? Yeah. Something get. a great life, sleep, eat, and play. But, um, so back to the the outlaws thing, I. go in and I'm just shooting the [ __ ]. I'm just working the bar. I'm telling.

jokes. Uh, you get a crowd of people. around you and that's no that's not. trade crap. I mean, that's just me, right? And uh by the way uh for the. listeners who may not know, little. intervention. If you buy all your. friends all their drinks and their food. all the time, they're probably not your. friends. You know what I mean? Yeah. I. got all kinds of friends. Those aren't. your friends, right? Stop paying. They. won't come around anymore. But that's. kind of what I was doing. And then now. we get to the night to where the outlaws.

uh are leaving their clubhouse. And for. the listeners that don't know, in the. biker world, especially 1enter world, there's a mandatory meeting every week. at a clubhouse, and they refer to it as. church. So, they're leaving church. I. get the surveillance team telling me, "Hey, man, we're leaving church." I'm. like, "Cool." I'm at the bar already, the foxy lady uh in Brockton, Massachusetts, and that's a rough town, right? And uh marvelous Marvin Hagler. I'd go for a jog and I' I'd go. home. Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah." But uh um.

they tell me they're coming. Now the. intelligence that they had provided me. when we started getting this case. together, I was like, "Hey man, can they. wear their colors, their cuts, their. leathers in the bar, and they said, "No, they don't allow that." And I'm thinking. in my mind, well, that makes my approach. easier cuz I'm not a tattooed. guy watching naked women listening to. heavy metal and drinking next to a guy. who's watching naked women and heavy. metal drinking. They had that part wrong. because about 13 15 outlaws come walking. into the bar, take the whole back bar,

they're all wearing their colors. So. that does that change my approach? Yeah, I think it does. Yeah. Unless you want. me to go up and as I say when I'm. teaching this, I go up and I go, "What. do you say? Come go, hey, uh, you you. boys ride? What. you Nothing? No. All right, fine. I'll. just I'm going to go back on the other. side of the bar. Please don't beat my. ass." Um, so I just was being loud and. boisterous. It's me. That's what I do. Uh, it doesn't always work for. undercovers. Some people don't like it,

but it's my personality. Are you allowed. to get drunk? Uh, boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. Um, but here's the thing. Uh, let's say that outlaws case. That. was two years. So, there's two years of. recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack. and Coke up, right? Um, I was I'm anal. Uh, even though I look and sound like. trash, on paper I'm pretty tight. And I. wanted to be good. I wanted to always. get better and be more well-rounded. So, I would watch and even if I caught.

myself at 5 in the morning, 6:00 in the. morning slurring as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, "Dad gum it, man." And then. I'd listen and within five minutes I'd. be back. Because you got to remember all. that could be played in front of a jury. Mhm. And if I'm on there slurring and. saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for. what I was doing? Um, but was my alcohol. tolerance very high? You know, you're a. big dude. Probably puts him away. I did. kind of still do. I tell I tell you.

what, the what put me on a three-month. timeout was CPI. Really? Yeah. Because. you go down there and you get the uh. Let's explain it. We're talking about. the Cellular Performance Institute that. uh my friends uh run down in Tijana. Absolutely. Great, great facility. Uh I. will tell you the my previous hospital. visit before I went to Tijana uh almost. died. I had a hip replacement and it got. sepsis and I almost died. So 14 days. after my total hip replacement, quickest. surgery I've ever had, about 30 minutes,

chop the femur off, drill it, pop. They're walking you out. you're still. very high on all your They're like, "If. you can walk, you can go home." And I'm. like, "I can't. walk." But, uh, apparently something. happened. It got infected. So, 14 days. later, I had sepsis and they got it. under control and they went back in and. cleaned me all out. I had two hip. surgeries in 14 days, but fast. So, now. I'm going to Tijana knowing what I know. about working the border, knowing what. even though I'm friends with Ed and. Scotty, the owners. And I'm like, uh,

I'm like, man, uh, now I'm going by. myself. Um, best hospital stay I've ever. had. Uh, phenomenal. It's phenomenal. It's an amazing place. Phenomenal. And. what I but what got me to stop cut back. on my drinking is I got down there, you. can't drink the week before, especially. if you're getting the IV uh stem cells. because they travel through your body. and they grab stuff. So, if you drink. and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So, you're kind of wasting the the shots. I. knew I couldn't drink the week before I. got there. And they go, "Yes, you can't. drink for three more months." And I.

went, "Three months?" And they're like, I said, "Dan, nobody told me that." And. I was like, and I immediately went, "Nah, I need to cut back anyway. That's. fine." You know, but uh yeah, tolerance. was high for them, but you you have to. be drinking with these folks when you're. hanging out with them. You don't have. to, but this will this will go back to. an explanation of the undercover school. If you're going to drink, we want you to. drink in a controlled environment when. you're tired because we want you to see. how you feel. We also want to see how.

you behave when you're extremely tired. and you're plastered, right? Um so you. have to know that you in other words, you don't want to find out in the middle. of the clubhouse that you can't handle. your [ __ ] right? Um, so yeah, I I uh. you can drink um and but you're being. recorded, so be be weary about wary. about it. What about drug use? Uh this I get this is this trade craft. or.

not? Maybe this is the easiest way to. say it. If I believe my life is in. danger and like literally I'm getting. ready to die, I I will snort the lacquer. finish off of this damn. table. And then I'll be like, "Is that. is that all you got? You want me to do. some more?" Right? Cuz I really don't. feel like dying right now. This episode. is brought to you by Lifellock. Tax. season is already stressful. You. shouldn't have to worry about identity. theft on top of everything else. And.

trust me, it's a big worry, especially. since during tax season, your sensitive. info does a lot of traveling to places. you can't control. It goes through. payroll, your accountant, or your tax. consultant, and countless other data. centers on its way to the IRS. Any of. them can expose you to identity theft. because they all have the info on your. W2, just the ticket for criminals to. steal your identity. It's no wonder last. year the IRS reported tax fraud due to.

identity theft went up 20%. You need. Liflock. They monitor millions of data. points per second and alert you to. threats you could miss. If your identity. is stolen, Lifellock's US-based. restoration specialists will fix it back. by the milliondoll protection package. and restoration is guaranteed or your. money back. Don't let identity thieves. take you for a ride. Get Lifellock. protection for tax season and beyond.

Join now and save up to 40% your first. year. Call 1 800 lifelock and use the. promo code joe rogan or go to. lifellock.com/joan for 40% off. Terms. apply. And then I need to get to the. team. I need to get out. I need to get. to the case team and I need to get to an. emergency room to make sure I'm not. ODing, especially today with fentanyl. and stuff. But that's that's kind of the. general rule. Um, I would say it's probably not a good. idea for you to do.

drugs, just without answering it. completely, let me give you this. You're. going to trial. We've got a two-year. case against you, and I'm up here. articulating what I did. It's in my. documents. It's in the recordings. and. we have built this. case. Usually with undercover cases, in. my experience, the evidence is so. overwhelming, the only thing the defense. can can claim is entrapment, which you. should be able to shoot that down pretty.

quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a. piece of trash on the stand. So, imagine. if they're saying, "Well, he did dope. with us." You need to be able to. articulate, did you? Why did you? That's. more movie stuff. It does happen on uh. on levels. And I wish it didn't, but it. happens on levels where people don't. have training. Um, and that's that's sad because there. have been plenty of people, let's just. use biker gangs from law enforcement, from local small department all the way.

up to feds that have infiltrated biker. gangs that have patched and gotten their. colors, but the cases went to crap. They. lost themselves. They lost their. marriage. They became addicted to drugs. So, we shouldn't be There's no case. worth that. It's probably that's that's. the best way to say it. There's no case. worth you getting addicted to drugs or. endangering yourself, just walk. So, what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular, and then eventually. getting to know these guys? Um, so that. first night, uh, I'm being loud and.

boisterous, and they did say that there. was one particular member who loved to. be the center of attention, and he loved. to be surrounded by big dudes. Take that. for what you want. I don't know. I. didn't dive too deep into that one. But. uh when you say hang out with these. dudes, [Laughter]. why is there a jar of Vaseline over. there? What kind of party is this? What's with the cameras? Hey, Scott, have a drink of this before. you come in here and sign this NDA.

Yeah. What? What? Uh so I I start befriending him. and I'm being loud. Let me take it back. I'm being loud. This guy did like. attention. He sees it and he's like, "Hey, hey, where the f are you from?". So, I fire some stupid comedy thing back. and we start going back and forth. because he's already asked the. bartenders, "Who the hell's that guy?". Oh, that's text. He comes up here all. the time from Texas. I come up here all. the time. It's human nature. It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big by.

the 10th person you're telling, man. There was like 10 of them, right? I had. to fight them off with my pinkies. Um, but I get called over uh I don't know. who sent a drink to who first, but he. calls me over and just starts shooting. the [ __ ] with me and from then he pretty. much invites me to one of their. Northeast regionals uh called Lobster. Fest held in Brockton at that clubhouse. Um, and we were kind of on the way. There was a guy who was not patched and.

his name was Scott as well. Uh, I said. the name of the book. It's all it's all. adjudicated. It's all in the court uh. proceedings and stuff, but um Scott Town. was his name and he was a big dude. He. was jacked. And he came in. I remember. going to the bathroom and uh again, I. think I'm doing pretty good. Like I'm. I'm I'm in graciating. I'm being me. I'm. talking, shooting the [ __ ] not hanging. out too much. I walk back over, play a. little, you know, you come chase me kind. of thing. So, I go to the bathroom and. nobody's in there. And for the listeners.

that don't know, men's bathrooms and. bars, usually at the urinal, there's. some kind of box, plexiglass with some. kind of ads like, "Hey, this person's. coming next week." That stuff. So, as. I'm peeing, I'm looking at the. reflection and I see the door swing open. and I see this jack dude Scott. Uh, it. must have made an impression because in. the report, I even say he's wearing like. a gray shirt with black trim. He's. completely sleeved out. I'm getting all. this from, you know, uh, sleeved out on. the left arm, huge earrings. Um, and I.

watch him and I see him kind of ducking. and looking under stalls and hitting the. doors to make sure nobody else is in the. bathroom. I'm acting nonchalant, but. then I see him walk up to me. And for. that split second, I thought I'm getting. jacked. I'm I'm going to get jumped. right here. But he ends up just asking. me, "What brings you to Massachusetts?". I think what happened is they sent him. in there to press me. Um, and this is a. good lesson. And don't bluff. If you. bluff, uh, whatever you say today, you.

might be still in that case a year and a. half, two years later. It needs to match. what you said on day one. Or you could. be slipping up and getting found out. But I said where I'd been around, Macallen, grew up in South Carolina, all. this stuff, he'd been to all those. places cuz he used to travel the country. fighting dogs. So if I'd have been. bluffing, I'd have been done right. there. And then from there we start. building relationships. Now I'm trying. to ingratiate and I'm getting invited to. parties. Uh they I my story was that I.

was a site survey specialist and I. traveled the country for investors out. of Texas and I would look at properties. that they want to buy whether it res. whether it's residential or mercantile. and you know pull stuff from the clerk. of court and all that kind of stuff. But. as it usually does in the criminal. world, it came out that I also did some. crimes myself and that's when we started. getting into uh they were doing. insurance fraud first with me. U they. would report vehicles stolen and then.

sell them to me for a stolen price. And. the story was since I was based out of. Macallen, Texas, I'm just using the. facts uh that we were moving vehicles to. Mexico uh in trade for whatever guns do. most likely dope, but whatever. Um, and. that's how we started. And then from. there now you start gaining more trust. You start hanging out more. You become. tighter. You're building these. relationships. Um, and then it's like, "Hey, we just carjacked somebody. We got. this car. We took this dude at gunpoint.

This thing's got Lowjack or OnStar, whatever was around. We got to get rid. of it. Don't worry about it. I got it.". Have a truck driver show up. We load all. the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, uh, on the truck. And they. thought they were going to Mexico, but. they were just going to a warehouse. somewhere in Massachusetts. So you never. actually brought cars to Mexico. No. So. when you would do that, we just get cash. from the FBI to like represent Mhm. Yeah. I mean, they would I would pay. them. Yeah. Uh a stolen price. Usually.

stolen's. usually 20 to 25% of what it would. normally cost, you know, cuz it's hot. Um and that just started gaining trust. I mean that we like I said there was. other undercovers that would help. We. call this cameos. Um if if you're the. primary undercover, that's you. That's. your case. Uh a secondary undercover. might mean you come in to meet me, but. you stay with me for a couple of days. and we go out and meet bad guys. together. That's going to be a secondary. role. If you're coming in as a truck. driver, you're just pulling in the. parking lot, we're loading up stuff. That's a cameo. And I've done many.

cameos for other undercovers as well. You know, just roll into town, do a. deal, whatever. So, no one's ever trying. to go with you to Mexico to make sure. that all this is happening. Not on that. case, but if they did want to, we would. have to work that out. We would have to. have that kind of. because I coin I I took this from a a. buddy of mine who who I helped certify. as an undercover. And I just thought it. was a great way to say it is, look, at the end of the day, we want. that target going to bed thinking that.

was a good day. You don't want them. laying in bed going, "Man, there's. something wasn't right about that guy. Something something's not right.". Because you want it to be as real as. possible. Right. So, is it was it a fact. that the cartels at that point in time. loved 4x4 V8s and Harley-Davidsons? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the. time on the border? Absolutely. So, that's that's factual stuff that's real. So now I'm a guy they they they.

eventually learned and believed that I. was a high ranking highranking member of. an international theft ring and that's. what we were doing. And then through. those through those then they start. stealing vehicles which I got to be. careful of. I can't say hey I want a I. want a brand new F350 quad cab because. then they go steal it. I that's somewhat. of enttrapment. I just led them to go. steal that car, right? Um, but over the next year or so, we're. getting more and more stuff. I buy dope. from them. Um, like I said, carjackings.

We learned of them certain members. extorting people like the good old mafia. days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions. Um, but again, for the. listeners listening, to hear that at a. bar and say, "Yeah, we robbed that. house." Is that enough to charge. somebody? Probably not. as an assistant. United States attorney gonna be like, "Yeah, that's enough." No, we're gonna. have to dive in more and find out and. vet it out and get that evidence. Wow. Stressful [ __ ] Slightly getting.

stressed out just thinking about you. doing all these things. Me, too. So, like, how how long is this relationship. while you're building a case? Like, how. how much time are you spending with. these people? I was pro for that case, I. was probably up there every 3 weeks for. a good week, but then there's constant. contact when I'm not there. Next, text. messages. Yeah. Well, nexttails were big. with him at that point in time. So, yeah. Church. Oh, the the old days. The. walkie-talkie. Radio. Yeah. Yeah. Those. were funny. People forgot about them. walkie-talkies. Yeah, man. It was It was.

crazy about that. You could key up and. talk to somebody in Japan and it'd be. crisp clear. But if you try to call. somebody, it was the worst connection. ever. Yeah, they were terrible phones. But that's what they used and that's. what I got. I was mirroring them. But, uh, yes, you build those relationships. and it depends. Each case is different. But I will say that the tightest. relationship I had on that case was. Scott Town. Um it was absolutely scary. how similar we were. Um and how tight we. were. Uh now again he didn't know I was.

Scott paying FBI undercover but he knew. I was Scott Callaway and he knew I mean. it would be to the point to where if we. were going out to do an op that evening. an operation um they wouldn't put it in. the operations plan but they would ask. hey is Scotttown going to be there. tonight. I'm like, "Yeah." And and even. the FBI cover teams and stuff would be. like, "Good." Cuz they knew that he. cared enough about me, he'd take a. bullet for me and protect me and vice. versa, really as me and Scott Callaway. And I mean, we finished each other's.

sentences. We thought the same other. than the criminal stuff. Uh, and some. faith belief systems. But, uh, yeah, that was my tightest. And the second one. over the two years was probably a guy. whose road name was Closine and he was. the enforcer for the Taunt chapter. And. then after that it probably would have. been the president which was Joe Dogs. and then it just trickles down from. there. Do you have conflicted feelings. when you develop like these. relationships with these guys? I did. Um you can put on as much training you.

can get the training you can be a part. of it. I'm still human, you know. Uh, now was I to a point to where I'm going. to go, I'm leaving the FBI and I'm going. to become a 1enter. Some people do though, right? I know. some people do, but I wasn't there. I. wouldn't I wouldn't do that. How often. does that happen? Well, I don't in the FBI probably not a. lot, but those cases are well known. If. something happens like that, somebody. goes rogue, like uh, you know, your. breach story and all these people.

selling secrets and getting people. killed. Yeah, I I wouldn't there. Nor. would I be I wouldn't be. I would like. to think if I did have a oneenter club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though. Well, you probably understand how it. works. Just kidding. But even then, yeah, I know. I mean, you're dealing. with ragamuffin people. Like, how do you. know? I know who's But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people when. we're riding around and we're people are. wrestling each other over tables. This. is my favorite move. Bang. I mean, at. one point I'm driving down the road with. Scott Town in a snowstorm and I'm.

driving and I'm like this with my hand. He reaches over out of nowhere and. breaks my pinky. Just pop. And this. sucker is like a 90°. And I'm like, "Mother." I pulled over. I slammed on. the break. Well, I mean, snow, but come. to a stop and I go, "What the f is your. problem?" And he's looking at me and. he's going, "I don't know what he was. on, but he was in an evil space, right?". And I'm looking at him and I'm going, "Look, if you want to f and fight, we'll. stand out in the damn snowstorm right.

now and we'll go at it. I know you think. you can whip me, but maybe I can whip. you. And I saw it wasn't going anywhere. And he was getting more and more angry. And then I just looked at him and I. went, he's an animal right now. I'm. going to diffuse. I'm going to. deescalate. Which is really what you. should be doing as an undercover. And I. look over and I go, "Hey, hey." After I. pop my finger in, I go, "Hey, sniff. Smell. Good boy. Friend, friend." Like. that. I'm trying to calm him down. Then. he starts laughing. But that's the kind.

of stuff you get. But to me, it was no. different than being in college playing. ball, hanging out with psychos. Yeah. When you're there in the month of August. and nobody is there. It's just 247. football. What was it like when you. eventually brought that guy down? It was. sad. It was sad because in that case, uh. there was a point where I I had a young. daughter and his youngest daughter was. roughly the same age as my daughter. So, I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in.

his house bouncing his daughter on my. lap and and you know that when they're. developing. uh as a human being, they're at that. stage they're kind of making the same. noises, moving the same way. It was it. was surreal. And then I remember. thinking, man, I mean, I really like. this guy, you know? He likes to drink, I. like to drink. He likes to fight. I like. to fight. He likes to ride. I like to. ride. He likes to live. I like to live. I go, man, we finished each other since. everything I already said. And then I. look over at his uh. refrigerator and and I see all these.

stickers and magnets and stuff and my. eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for. the listeners that don't know, WWJD is. very common in the Christ follower. Christian community. What would Jesus. do? Um you see the bracelets all the. time and I looked over and said WWSD. What would Satan do? And I looked and I. went, "Oh yeah, we're not the same. We're not I'm back.". I used to we'd be in the clubhouse and. everybody's yelling they're like you. know if for the again people that don't. know whatever your biker club name is.

you usually get these same sayings. So. for the outlaws it's outlaws forever. forever outlaws. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God forgives. Outlaws don't. Yeah. Yeah. It's better to be first in hell than. second in heaven. And I'm like. what T? Hang on. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a. chalk walking Christian because I'm. pretending to be a 1enter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever. heard of hell where it was good? I mean, are we you helping me out here? So,

yeah, it's it's a crazy bunch. But on. that case, one of the biggest things. that happened is um we had been going. for a year and a half and doing all. these things. Uh they've carjacked. stuff. We're getting more and more. evidence. There was a Hell's Angel. president murdered uh in Connecticut. Bridgeport, Connecticut. And terrible. town. Yeah. Terrible town. I Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous. So So. Bridgeport, Connecticut. And um the. other Hell's Angel that was shot, didn't.

die, and he was able to give a. description of a green truck with. Florida plates. We knew at that time. that Florida Outlaws were up in that. area cuz they were hanging out with our. targets. Um, and even when I would call, I'd be like, "Hey, man. What's up, man? It's hot here right now. If you come. out, you need to be strapping." I'm. like, "Well, I don't want to fly with. it. I don't want to put a, you know, bullseye on my back then." Um, I'm like, "Hey, if I show up, man, we'll give you. a vest. We'll give you a gun kind of. thing." So, we're doing all that. And. now we get to the point to where we can.

all the predication's there. Uh, they. they've done wire taps. The case team. has been doing a wire tap. They know. that there's drug deals going on. They're doing surveillance. And now. we're to the point to where uh we can. introduce that I used to be in the dope. game as well. Um my story was that the. reason I got out of it and only did the. stolen stuff was because some of my. peeps got popped cuz the heat was. getting close. So I I pulled chocks and. I was out. And all I do now is move.

stolen equipment down because it's a lot. less uh the way I explained it, it was. less likely for law enforcement to catch. me. And and then they would ask, you. know, well, how come a white guy is not. cut out by all these Mexicans you're. working with? And I go, because I'm the. gringo that has the contact at the port. of entry and the contacts at the. checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn. their head for two minutes and let our. stuff go through. And that was really. happening on the border. And I knew that. because I was on the border working it. again, real things. You're just you're.

just putting them into your story. Um, but I now let them know it took a long. time. I don't put words in their mouth. Um, but I started laying breadcrumbs. over weeks and months that I did used to. be in the dope game. And of course, Joe. Dog's the president. I mean, the first. time I met him and he said, "Where are. you from?" I said, "Macuel, Texas on the. border." His next question was, "How. much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?". And I went, "Well, if we were needing. predication, I think he just gave it.".

Uh, but his business skills weren't that. great because I'd say, "Look, man, about. 13 grand is what you could get a kilo. for then on the border." He said, "Man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13,". I'm like, "No, that's not going to cost. 13 up here. There's a reason that a kilo. cost 25 to 30 grand up here because. somebody has to get it from the border. to here." Right? Now, if you want to. drive down the border and buy 10 for 13. a piece and you risk taking them back. over, but um so we let it be known uh. that that I had some cartel. Of course, they knew I had cartel contacts and we.

started introducing those. Some cameo. undercovers came in, unbelievable. people. Um and we ended up doing what. some refer to as a drug protection. Uh. there was going to be a drug shipment. coming in and my crew was going to be. delivering it to another crew and we. needed protection and we did it in. Brockton. Um and several outlaws hopped. in on it. Uh the issue was this at least. one of the big issues pretty much that. case I had a great time. Yes, it's. violent and my my mentality was.

changing. There is a podcast that's uh. it's a series that's going to be coming. out um with the book and they actually. interview one of the uh task force. officers who was over me on that case on. the outlaws and I remember him calling. me he's like hey what say what can I say. I said tell him the truth I said I want. to know I want to know what you were. thinking I know what I was thinking and. it was really really surreal to hear him. talking about he could see my. personality changing he could see and.

like the FBI office might be saying we. want him to patch and he was over here. fighting going, "Hell no, we're getting. everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit." And. it was just really cool to hear that. But, uh, essentially for the case, it. was me, an FBI case agent, and two task. force officers. Uh, we had, uh, Detective Joe Cummings from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higenbottom from the. Massachusetts State Troopers, and then. an agent with the FBI, and that was it. I mean, they would add some here and. there, but for two years, that was it. It was us. So now we get to this point.

to where we're like, man, let's do this. drug protection. And the assistant. United States attorney was like, "Hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse. or do they talk about this at the. clubhouse?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he. goes, "Well, that would be awesome if we. could get that recorded because it. helps, right? To show what they're. planning on doing." Um, so the night. before the deal is supposed to happen, they don't know it, but we've got 40. kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds. of weed, real. Um, so you can imagine. SWAT teams are involved cuz can I mean. can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos.

of. cocaine and and Brockton and Taons are. all wide awake for the next week, you. know, or there's OD's, you know, cuz. that's a liability. Um, did you say you had 40 kilos? There's only 39 here. I don't know. Not. But, uh, so they say, "Hey, Joe Dogs calls me. It's night at church. He says, "Hey, I. need you to come to the clubhouse." I'm. like, "All right, cool." And of course, I'm thinking, "I'm type A. I'm Scott.

Payne. I got this. Let's go do this, man. These are my boys. I've been doing. this a year and a half." And I went into. the clubhouse and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording. devices were at because that's. tradecraft. Um, but let's just say I had. a video and recording device hidden. somewhere in my clothing. I had a. completely audio recording device. somewhere else on me. And I had a. transmitter batteries so the team could. listen in. Um, and I went into the. clubhouse like normal. But what you.

can't see if you go back and you watch. the video is if I'm facing this way and. I'm shooting the [ __ ] with you and this. is the bar and you're laughing at my. jokes like always. When I would turn my. head to look this way, it's still. filming and I didn't see it because I. turned my head. They go stoneface. Oh. And I I missed it. I didn't see it. Um, I do know that when I got to the. clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on. the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm. like, "What the," you know, Joe Dogs. props me. He goes, "Hey, hey, we're not. ready yet." And I go, "Then why the hell.

did you tell me to come?" I was being. smart. I'm like, "What's the deal? Why. would you say come if you're not ready?". I didn't pick anything. up. So, I go in and for the listeners uh. that may not know, uh, at least in this. clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several. times. They wanted me to patch, but I. I'm with the what I said for the task. force officer. I said the same thing. I'm like, "Look, if I'm a probate and. they say, "Get your [ __ ] text. We're. going to go jack this dude." I kind of. got to go. I mean, if I don't do it, I'm.

either getting kicked out or beat down. or whatever, right? Um, but being a high. ranking member of an international theft. ring that they're making money off of, so a little different. I We were getting. everything we wanted. So, I go into the. clubhouse. I miss that. I also miss that. in the back. Uh, one of them, Chocolate. Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the. song that's playing, but he's warming. up. And I miss that. And then my second. closest contact, clos line, says, "Hey, Tex, you got a minute?" And I said, "Yeah." And we walk. I'd been in that.

clubhouse I don't know how many times, Joe. He But there's one door I'd never. been in. And that's the door we went in. And it was a very tight stairwell into. you can say a basement, but that's being. very uh that's I'm stretching it because. I could probably touch the ball wall on. both sides and I couldn't stand up. straight. So they bring me down in. there. They've brandished their weapons. One of them walks in behind me. He's on. the steps. So they got their pistols and. uh my friend says, "Hey, there's a lot. of [ __ ] going on. It's my job to take.

care of my brothers. I need you to write. down your full name, your address, your. phone number, all kinds of stuff. Uh, and I need you to take off all your. clothes. I need to check you for a wire. Whoa. Here's the problem. Had I not been. wired, embarrassing? Yes. Naked with a. bunch of men around you in a cold. basement. Yeah, that would that would. have been bad, but it would have been no. threat. Um, but I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do.

you try to get out? Well, there's. already two or three there. I'm probably. going to do some Tommy boy [ __ ] and. knock myself out on the joist as soon as. I start trying to fight. And then. upstairs, there's what, 10 more outlaws. And that door, what I was getting into. earlier, and I didn't say, uh, if you're. not a patch member, you can't touch the. door. That door has more than one. deadbolt on it. They had welded metal. hooks to the frame and put one of those. like shipyard metal bars across. So, from a breacher standpoint, it's a. fortified door. it might be easier to. breach the wall next to.

it. So, we're down there in the basement. and when I go to write my name down, um, I forgot my middle name and that's. because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as. cops in shootouts, uh, military in. shootouts, somebody in a car wreck, first time, everything. When you're. having that adrenaline dump, everything. slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So, everything you're hearing sounds. like you're underwater is going whoosh. whoosh. is slow like you're talking to. me like this time dilation your eyes are.

clicking you look and everything's in. frames everything's slowing down your. hamstrings get really rubbery you feel. your heart beating you I mean you feel. everything pulsing um and what seems. like 10 15 minutes is probably 30. seconds and that happens that's an. adrenaline dump so that was happening. and I forgot my middle name and I'm. going Scott Callaway Scott Callaway. Scott Kelly I start going through this. damn rolodex in my head and I'm going. now. That's Scott Callaway. Scott. Callaway and I'm going Scott Joseph. I. got no damn it. That was a middle that.

was my middle name for another alias, you know, and I don't realize that uh I. do a distraction technique or something. to try to get more intelligence. I would. have never known I said it, would have. never agreed I said it had I not seen it. in the recording. But I turn and I go, "And what else do you need?" And by the. way, you've got a baseline of me now. My. voice, it did not sound like this on. that recording. My throat was tight. the. octaves. I mean, it it was very higher. than normal and I'm like not even. annunciating that well. I'm like, "What.

else do you need?" And they're like, "What?" I go, "My name and what else?". Well, now I hear them scream up and they. go, "What else do you need for that. website?" So, now I know, oh, they're. going to Google me. Back then, there was. who's things like. that. So, I'm gathering that evidence or. intelligence. And then I remember my. middle name was uh my initials were SACE. cuz I'm an idiot and I thought it was. funny because that's you SACE is the. head of an FBI division and I knew I was. never going to be one. So So I made my. initials SACE. So I remember my name's. Scott Andrew Callaway. And then I write.

that down. Well, now I take off all my. clothes. I take off my my my outer. clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots. off and I I basically pull my underwear. and jeans down around my ankles. Um so. pretty much naked from ankle. I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And. he starts searching me and I'm again, I'm having an oh [ __ ] moment. And he's. he's trying to talk to me. and like we had known each other for a. year and a half. So I'm not saying it.

out loud, but if you saw what my face. was saying, what my face is saying and. asking is tell me I'm okay. Is this. okay? Well, clothesline because we were. tight hits me back with a face look. that's like everything's all right. this. was just procedure. However, he doesn't. know that I'm an undercover agent and. I'm wired. So, that adds a whole another. issue. So, he searches me, I think we're. done. Um, he one point he even tells me, he says, uh, trust me, if somebody. accused me of being a fed, I'd probably.

smash him in the [ __ ] mouth. And I. said, those are his words. And I I. immediately said, well, I'm not happy. I'll tell you what I did do. I did look. to make sure there was no plastic on the. floor. And I've had people ask me, "What. does that mean?" And I go, "Well, listen. If you're in the criminal. underbelly of society and there's. plastic on the floor and they're telling. you to walk on it, they're going to cut. you open." Yeah. You just It's to clean. up the blood. I didn't see that. I saw a. rope. I saw pistols. And I knew I didn't. have a chance in hell of getting out of. there in one piece.

So he he finishes and he's he's saying. something. He goes he goes, "Wouldn't. you be suspect if somebody comes to. town, your town, and starts doing all. this [ __ ] with you?" I said, "Yeah, if. you came to me, I didn't come to you. guys. Y'all called me over. Nobody has. to do this shit." I'm like, "What do we, you know, nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done." So, I. pull my pants back up and I think we're. done. And he grabs a piece of clothing. of mine and he starts kneading it and.

going through it. Now, this is 2005 to. 2007ish. So techni technology today is. way better than it was then, just like. technology is. But uh let's just say. this, had he done this down my entire. piece of clothing, he would have felt. something. And he says as a joke when he. starts, he goes, "Hey, uh I'm not going. to find anything in here I don't want. to, like some naked pictures of my old. lady." And he laughs and I his laugh is. like and my laugh is like, you know, and.

then I'm watching him go down this piece. of clothing and he's doing this and he's. kneing it and and I you can hear again I. don't know I do it but on the recording. you can hear me. go an audible sigh because I'm like. watching it and I'm going what the what. am I going to do? So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it. Wow. Almost. I mean,

like very very close. Um, and by the. way, that first adrenaline dump, I've. come back up and now I've got another. adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks. and valleys. And, uh, everybody that. I've taught this to or spoke about it. to, always ask, they're like, "Man, what. would you have said?" And I'll tell you, I had two responses because I'm a jovial. idiot. My first response, if he would. have said, "What is this?" I would have. probably said, I don't know, some naked. pictures of the old lady to try to buy. myself some time, maybe make him quit.

searching. The only the other thing I. had, Joe, is and I remember like it was. yesterday. I would have said, the gig is. up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I. can walk out of here and we can see each. other in court or all hell's going to. break loose. Here's the issue as I get a. swig. That would have been a bluff on my. part because as far as I knew, every. time I was in that clubhouse, my cover. team could never hear. me for whatever reasons because.

somebody's going to say it's tradecraft, but again, this is 2005 to 2008, but. they could never really hear me in that. clubhouse. And I make it out. Uh, I end up going. out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that. night. But what happens is I am. legitimately pissed off because now my. adrenaline's coming back down and I'm. I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm. undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not. really Scott Callaway. I mean, I'm kind. of But you're so deep in the role. Well,

and it's really me kind of. I mean, that's the whole thing. I never was far. off of who I really am in life. A. pedophile? Yeah. I'm You hire me to kill. somebody? No, I'm not going to. ingratiate with you. I'm a stone cold. killer. But I'm hanging with you for two. years or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah. that I'm the jokes are kind of the. same. So, so I'm pissed and I'm at one. point I'm telling Joe dogs I'm like, "You know what, man? F all you sons." I. said, "Yo, show up tomorrow." I said, "I'm stripping all y'all in the damn. parking lot." You know, I was just bl. and they were nice. They let me vent my.

stuff. Well, that night when I went to. turn in my equipment uh at an. undisclosed location, probably 3:00, 4:00 or 5 in the morning to the case. team. Um what I found out was this. Uh. the shift started with Sergeant. Higinbottom. Everybody called him Higgy. Uh and Joe, the detectives, the. detective. Uh these guys are awesome. Phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh although I think their love language. is. yelling. Maybe that's my southern thing.

mixing with the Northeast thing. But uh. uh they told me they said, "Scott, we. heard you in there." And I'm like, "What?" When I had that first. interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very. street smart. They're very good. investigators and they have been working. this group forever. Something that. happened in that first interaction made. their spotty senses or the Holy Spirit. if you're a believer uh say something's. not right. They had pulled close enough. They heard everything. They put on their.

vest. They suited up. And because they. had been in that clubhouse before and. knew that door system, their plan was to. drive the van into the cinder block wall. next to the door. Oh my god. Just to. smash that, you know. Uh sometimes I'm. teaching this, I'll joke about it and. say it probably would have killed me. because I was in the basement, you know. But reverse back up. You're so damn. heavy. But um at that moment, I was. scared to death, right? So they tell me. what happened was they pulled close.

enough they heard everything. They're. suiting up. They have radioed now cuz. it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is. now blue lights and siren all the way. down to the hauling ass to. Massachusetts. So uh I say this in the. jovial way, but the case agent was. actually a good friend of mine. We went. through the FBI academy together. And uh. that night um again I'm still shell. shocked. He says, "Man, when I was. coming down the highway with my blue. lights and sirens on, I felt like I was. in there with you." And I looked at him.

and I said, "You. weren't." I said, "Cuz I was looking for. any friendly face I could find in that. damn hole." But, uh, so, uh, that night, um, we haven't talked about my family. I. I try not Well, I take it back. In my in. the book, I'm very transparent about. where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, you. know, 911 hang-ups, stuff like that. But. at that point in time, uh, I'd bought my. wife, everybody's pretty familiar now.

with the burner phone, but I'd bought my. wife a phone that came back to nothing. So my undercover phone could call that. phone, not violating the operational. security. That night, Joe, when I called. her, I'd always call her every night. And again, 5, 7 in the morning, it. didn't matter. And it might just be she. wakes up and says hello. And I go, "Hey, I just want you to know I'm done. Heading back to the hotel room. Whenever. I wake up this afternoon, I'll call. you." It might be that quick. That night. when I called her, um, the first thing. she said to me was, "Are you okay?" And.

I said, she felt it. I said, "Yeah, why?" And she said, "I was driving with. our daughters at such and such time in. Macallen." And she said she got this. overwhelming feeling and pulled over on. the side of the road and started praying. for me. And I matched it up. That's when. I was in the. basement. So, wow. Say what you will, but uh damn. Wow. Yeah. Apparently my. [ __ ] signal. Apparently I don't need. Verizon or anything cuz it went from.

Boston all the way to the bottom of. Texas, but it's just uh I mean that. that's just one of the little one of the. things that happened and it just takes a. toll on you over time. Um I can only. imagine. Yeah. So, I'll get you to the. next day. We do the deal. Clothesline. doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me. off. Wait a minute. You're supposed to. be my boy, and you took me into the damn. basement and stripped me at. gunpoint, but you can't come up. You You. don't show up the next day and help with. this thing. Again, I'm taking it.

personal. I shouldn't. So, everybody. knew there was a beef. Let's just fast. forward a month or two. I go back home. I come back and Big Scotty had even. said, he goes, "Look, these guys are. going to settle us like grown men face. to face. It ain't gonna happen over the. damn phone. So the next time I go back. to Massachusetts, I met a cantina we. used to go hang at and drink at in. Bridgewater." And uh another hard town. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so yeah, these are my. people. This is where I get.

called. We did not do any uh meetings at. the Long Warf Marriott. You know what I. mean? Ah, why would you like to meet me. at Legal Seafoods tonight, my fellow. criminals? You. know, yeah. Uh, so, so I'm at this cantina and. clothesline walks in. Now, you got to. remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement and he. looked a little rough, like a little. whipped, you know, like he'd been. disheveled. And he says, "Hey, man. Can.

I talk to you for a minute?" And the. first thing I said was, "No." And he. said, "Why?" I said, "Cuz the last time. you asked me that [ __ ] I ended up naked. in the basement." "No." So he says, "No, it's like that." So we went back in the. kitchen and we're talking and what we. learned or what I learned and the case. team learned is when we up the antie to. do that drug deal. Um and again, a lot. of those outlaws were pushing for it. because as a drug dealer, what are you. always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. That's just more money. for you, right? So he was really,

especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a. pipeline. They wanted to get an. introduction to the cartel so they could. get quality dope, you know, and and have. a have a very successful business. Um, so I'm in there with him and I'm ready. I'm ready to go to blows if we have to. And he starts talking to me and he. says, "You know, Scott," he said, "Um, what had happened?" What I was going to. tell you is that the call went up to the. top and the top to us meant Milwaukee. Jack was the national president. Uh, and.

this this makes a hard argument for when. they say it's not an organization. You. do your own stuff. We only deem each. each other. Nobody knows each other's. business. Well, then how did it go to. the top of the outlaws who said, "Has. this guy ever really been checked?" And. they go back and say, "Well, we've done. like six to eight jobs with him and. we're not in bracelets, meaning. handcuffs." He said, "I don't care. Check them." So now that's when I get. stripped in the. basement. I learned that and this is. what clothesline tells me. And you got.

to remember my mindset is screw this. guy. I'm ready to go to blows. I'm not. going to look like a [ __ ] And he says, "Man, um, I know I was born to be an. outlaw. I'm either going to die young or. die in jail." He said, "And these are my. brothers." He said, "But I really don't. have a lot of friends." And he said, "Ones that I know would take a bullet. for me and I'd take a bullet for them.". And that's when I start looking at his. face and I'm going, "Oh [ __ ] don't you. say it, man. Don't you say it." And he. says, "And you're one of those.

people." So now I'm like, "Uh." And he. says, "The reason he didn't show up is. because he felt so bad for what he had. to do to me in the basement that night. He got so obliterated that night. He was. passed out through the whole drug deal. The next day, so that night when I. called my. wife, she says, "Hello." And my first. words are or she's like, "How's it. going? How did it go?" My first words. are, "I am a dick." I go, "I am such a.

dick. This guy loves me. He cares about. me." Now, that's the real side. That's. the human side. Now, there might be, you. know, we we don't train that way. We. tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm. still human. I'm out there. I'm out. there. I'm surprised we hadn't said this. yet. A lot of times if I'm speaking or. teaching or whatever, I'll put up there. What does undercover mean to you? So, I'll ask you, what do you think. undercover is? You're pretending. Okay, you're pretending. You infiltrate an. organization, pretend to be one of them.

I get that a lot. I get lying. Um, we. hear acting. You're a. character. Here is the definition of. undercover work. You are building. relationships that you're going to. betray. And that sucks if you look at it that. way, especially if you genuinely have. something in common with these guys and. you actually like their company. Now, don't get me wrong. If you haven't done. anything illegal, well then no, I'm. really not. I mean, I guess I'm still. betraying you because you thought I was.

somebody else, but we're not arresting. you. I've done undercovers like that. Those happen all the time. You're in. there for 5 months and you're like, there's nothing federal here. I mean, they're just they're they're within. their constitutional rights and you just. bail. But, uh, you you have to you you are. basically building and betraying. relationships, especially if you're. gathering evidence of criminal activity. And you need to know how you're going to. deal with that. rationalize that in your. mind so it doesn't have an adverse. impact on your psyche. And that's that's.

tough. You know, uh I'll fast forward. you a little bit. I I I crashed on that. case for a three-year period. Um I'd. been going non-stop. And I'm not saying. I'm tough. Uh I met my threshold. I. think your threshold changes every day. Just like your comfort zone. Some days I. take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running and I go, "It's going to be a damn good day." I. feel light, fluffy, floating on the. floating on the clouds. Some days I take. off running and I go, "How long have I. been running?" Two minutes. Damn, it's.

going to be a long day. You know, so. your comfort zone changes. I think your. threshold changes, but I go into great detail in the book, but I for three years I had been doing. too much. Um, well, I say doing too. much, but even when I moved to. Tennessee, I did too much. Again, I just. learned how to balance it better. I I'm. a workaholic. I love working. I love. doing it all. SWAT call outs, running. tactical schools here, case agent first,

building cases, putting bad people in. jail, undercover. Um, but I had stopped taking days off. because I didn't want to give management. a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an. undercover. I just work through the. weekend or be undercover through the. weekend, come back, type up all my. stuff, then run my cases. Um, teaching. all the tactics and firearms for. Macallen and Brownsville agents, uh, res. resident agents, which is just satellite. offices, uh, out of out of San Antonio.

on SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that. And I just stopped. taking care of myself. So, we get to a. point to where, uh, like I said in great. detail in the book, but just picture. this. I already gave you a little bit of. a blurb on the undercover school, right? Two weeks, no days off. Let's just say. I'm there for 10 days. Well, once we put. you to bed, we're probably gonna hang. out and drink a little bit because. you're my peer and it's also therapy and. I have it. Maybe it's good to know that. you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the.

same thing you are. And there's a lot of. bonding that goes on there. But that. means for 10 days I'm not getting a. whole lot of sleep and I'm probably got. too much alcohol in my system if we're. being transparent. But then I leave straight from that. undercover school and I go right into an. undercover and let's just say I land in. Sturgis, which I did, and the Hell's. Angels shoot five outlaws at point blank. range. My first day there, like I had. been in town like an hour. Now there's. two old ladies, two patch members in a. probate, but they're all shot. They. confirmed it was Hell's Angels. We're.

talking paralyzed from the waist down. for life. We're talking shot crushed. clavicles. I mean, not just like a a. zinger. and now you're back doing that for days. on end. And when I would get home, I. would stop taking care of myself. I got. to the point to where I was a walking. zombie. Um, I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking. hydroxy cuts like crazy. I was making. the strongest coffee I could possibly. make. And I'd drink a pot of coffee and.

fall asleep. So, what I learned through the book. process, even though I'd learned a lot. already, I I found out from my wife, I. was a ghost, man. I'd come home from. SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. I'd be. on the couch and my daughters would be. on my lap. I'd help put them to bed, but. my wife couldn't even ask me a simple. question about the bills. You know, hey, there's this bill I got. Do whatever you. got. I can't think. I just need to and. she wanted to do everything she could to. support me and just let me veg and not.

put any put anything on my plate. So, we. get to the end of the outlaw case and. I'm starting to crash. Um, didn't know. it. Uh, if you are a certified. undercover and you were active in the. FBI, you mandatorily have to be. psychologically assessed twice a year. Um, that whole thing is called. safeguard. I'm not outing anything. It's. out there. It's on the internet. Um, but. the safeguard process was created by Joe. Pone, Donnie Brasco. It was created by.

Joe and a and a former agent who was. back his background was a clinical. psychologist, Steve Ban. And they came. up with this because Joe, you got to. remember when Joe was undercover, there. was no attorney general guidelines. There was there probably wasn't even an. operational procedure manual for. undercovers. It was like, "Here's money. Here's your recorders. Go make a case.". He was one of the first 25 undercovers. in the FBI. in 1972. That happened right. after Hoover left. Hoover did not. believe in the undercover technique, but.

soon as he was out, they started working. undercover. Um, but the safeguard. process goes like you take a bunch of. psychological tests and then you're. going to sit down. You're going to take. a break. It's going to put a bunch of. numbers into some charts. You're going. to sit down with the clinical. psychologist. They may be an agent for. the FBI or they may be contracted in. They're going to go over all that stuff. with you. They're going to dive deep. into your psyche. try to uh and then. after that you're going to sit down with. somebody like a piston or an experienced. undercover cuz you know the old saying. you can't [ __ ] a bullshitter. Well,

we use undercover UC as a verb. You. can't you see a UC. So, I remember going to take one of the. tests as an open-ended sentence. You. have to fill in the blanks. So, I'm on. my way to Daytona at a world run with. the Outlaws. uh still rolling heavy in the case and I. I stopped off at an undisclosed location. to do the assessment and I remember like. the opening sentence might be men are. and you got to finish it. I'd always say. men women are I'd put women they'd be.

like what do you mean? I go you know. what I mean. I said I'm not up in that. can of worms. like no we're different. How's that? Um, but there was one that said, "The last. time I relaxed, I" And I couldn't think. anything. Wow. Nothing. And that's not. me BSing. I'm like sitting there at the. table. going, "Well, I work out all the time.". I'm like, "But that's not relaxing. It's. not like I'm namaste and listen to Yanni. and [ __ ] I'm like I'm trying to throw. 45s across the gym, you know?" Um, but.

I'm like, so I just made up a story. Even Even at that moment, I thought, "Man, that's really screwed up." Wow. But I was like, "Nah, ain't a big deal.". And. uh again, way more detail in the book, but the thing that the thing that. happened to me was uh I ended up I'm out. partying with outlaws and mongos all. night. Um we uh I wake up the next. morning. I mean, you can hear and feel. the whiskey and eggs squishing in your. belly. You know that, you know, and I'm.

like, I'm I just feel disgusted. I'm. going to start working out. So, I'm in. the hotel room doing I before P90 came. out, but kind of that thing. Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff. And I came up. and by the way, this is after I hit the. inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two. cups of coffee. I don't know if there. was anything else in there. I later. learned that that was basically a. cocktail for an anxiety. attack. I was like, who.

knew? Ah, it doesn't make a lot of. sense. But I had I had an anxiety. attack. I was trying to work out. I came. up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all. about combat breathing, forgot about. paper bags. And uh but did I stop? Did I. say, "Man, that's really screwed up.". No. I took a nap, got up, started. drinking Jack Daniels, and went back. But when I flew home, uh I slept wheels. up to wheels down till I hit Houston. And then I slept wheels up to wheels. down till I got to Macallen. And I think.

probably the first two days I might have. slept close to 20 hours a day. Um, but. for the whole week for a five from like. Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of. 16 plus hours a day. Wow. And I wasn't I. wasn't depressed. I wasn't sick. I know. what they both feel like. I was that. damn tired. Um, so by Friday morning, I. take a phone call from uh a former good. buddy of mine. Um, he is probably one of. the best undercovers I've ever seen. Uh, but he was calling me about a possible.

another biker case and his first. question was, "How you doing, country?". And I'm like, "Not too good." And then. he let me talk for an hour and convinced. myself I needed to call safeguard. So I. called them. They came in and did an. on-site assessment. They. uh diagnosed me as over assigned and. they said, "You can continue the case on. the phone until they take it down." And. I stayed on the phone. I made a story up. because I'd gotten married technically. and I told them I was getting a divorce.

but I had to relocate my my wife and my. kids to El Paso where her family was at. Once that's done, I'm pulling chocks. I'm coming to Massachusetts. We had. already created it was in the creation. uh our own biker club that it was. approved by the top of the outlaws to be. the number one support club in the. Northeast. And we were going to name it. the righteous few. Scott Town was going. to be the president. I was going to be. an officer in it. uh sergeant-at-arms. and uh and I never went back up there. because they told me I couldn't. When.

you get put on timeout, it's like you no. travel. Uh you can be a case agent. Um. we're going to suggest to your division. no travel. Uh definitely no undercover. work. Um there was some confusion there. because one of the arguments is you need. to engra you need to you need to get. back into being a case agent and. remember what you're supposed to be. doing. And I'm like I never stopped. being a case. I'm running all these damn. cases while all this is going on. But, uh, I I took a timeout. Um, I made some. phone calls. There was one guy named Tim.

Sylvia, not the fighter, uh, who is a. buddy now, by the way. Um, Tim, this. guy's name was Tim Sylvia. He, uh, had. been in prison most of his life. Uh, but. before I stopped going up there, he was. introduced to me. He knew about the. cocaine. He knew about what I did. He. calls me and says, "Man, uh, I got some. stolen vehicles for you. Uh, I'm in the. magic powder business. If you can get me. those bricks or whatever he called them, code on the phone, uh, for 18 a piece, I.

can buy 10 of them right now." Um, so I. called the case team and said, "Look, he's reaching out to me. I can't come. back up there." Uh, so we rigged it up. to where, uh, the guys that were posing. as my truck drivers went and they were. going to pick up these stolen vehicles. They had like a 7 series BMW worth 100. plus grand at the time and some other. vehicles while they were with them. So. here I am on timeout in my garage. sweating my tail off in Macallen and. I've got my two phones. I'm talking to. the undercovers. I'm talking to Tim.

Sylvia. I'm telling them where to go. They're being covered. They go. They. meet. While they're meeting Tim, uh the. truck driver supposed playing my truck. driver calls me. You can hear me clearly. on the recording. I'm talking on it and. uh I tell him how much to pay Tim for. the stolen vehicles and Tim was like, "Hey, I'm going to report the BMW stole. stolen on Friday." And I said, "Can you. make it Saturday? It gives me 24 hours. more to get this thing into Mexico." And. they did that and then when they went to.

load the vehicles, he hit them for 18 a. key for 10 keys and they said yes. And. they ended the case with them doing a. ruse delivery of that dope. And so you. ask about the relationships. So this is. how it ends. I'm in Nevada helping put. on an undercover school. Uh that was one. thing that safeguard said I could go to. uh because they also knew they could do. many assessments, watch me, put me. around other undercovers, make sure I'm. not losing my [ __ ] and uh I can't.

remember the time difference uh to. Massachusetts, but I've already been. drawing up diagrams of all these houses. and club houses I've been in and I'm, you know, sending those to all these. SWAT teams all over the Northeast that. are going to be hitting all these. places. And I got back to my hotel room and I. always kept my undercover well the case. wasn't over technically yet anyway, but. I always kept my undercover phones on. for at least a month after a case went. down in case you got threatened or. anything like that. Well, I get back to.

my room and my next tail's chirping and. I check and it's it's Scott Town. He's. left me a message. So, I chirp him up. and he's all raspy voice cuz he's been. just woken up and he's like, "Hey, man. I just want you to know uh your your. truck driver Tony and and the other guy, they were beating Big Timmy and I don't. know what happened, but they all I think. they all got locked up." Well, he. doesn't know that I'm an undercover. He's telling me that that was the. takedown day. So, he's calling me and. I'm like, "Oh." I said, "You know what, brother? I appreciate that." I said, "I. don't I don't always control everything.

they do. Sometimes they do side jobs on. their own." I said, "I they were not up. there for me, but I'll try to find out. what's going on." He said, "Let me tell. you what I'm going to do." He said, "I'm. going to get up, get cleaned up. I'm. going to find out what the hell's going. on. I'm going to call you back." And I. said, "Okay." His last words to me were, "I I'm going to get chucked up." His. last words to me were, "I love you, brother." And I chirp back and I said, "I love you, too." And he he didn't know. that a SWAT team was going to be hitting. him in about 40 minutes. Wow. That's the. last time I talked to him. He'll.

probably hear this. I I got a 50-50. shot. If he walks up, I'll hug him. He. probably wants to beat the [ __ ] out of. me, but. Jesus, man. Is he out? Yeah, he's out. now. How much time did he do? I think he. did like eight eight or 10 somewhere in. there. Do you have this anxiety of. running into those guys somewhere? Yes and no. It really comes with the. job. However, somebody pointed pointed. out a difference to me the other day. there. I'm like, "Look, man. a cop or as.

an agent, you're locking people up and. they're getting. out. You know, if you get threatened in. Greenville County, if you're working for. Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here, was it Travis. County? If you get a threat, a legit. threat in Travis County, do you think. they got the money in the budget or they. would even spend money in their budget. to move you to another town? No. But in. the FBI, we have that. You hit the. threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff. So, in law. enforcement, there's always been you can. lock people up. You go to the grocery. store, you're with your wife and kids,

and you see. them. Everybody handles it their own. way. For me, my best defense is a good. offense. I'll just walk right up to you. Hey, man. Holy [ __ ] How are you doing? I cannot believe. When did you get out? Are you okay? Hey, are you on the. straight and narrow now? You know, because I'm gonna tell you, transparent, there's few things I love. more than a success story. Sadly, they're very rare in my 28-year career. But to see somebody who broke the law,

got out, turned themselves around, and. are doing great. I love it. You do see. some of those. Yeah. And I'll help them. I'm helping one right now. I told them, I said, "Look, I if you're doing the. right thing," they're like, "Well, I got. a felon on my record." I'm like, "Well, who better to be a reference for you on. your application than the guy who gave. you the felon? If you're doing the right. thing, I'll talk for you." Wow. We all. mess up. I mean, [ __ ] You know, but. that's got to be so complicated because. you're the guy who got him arrested. It.

is. Um, and I have had threats that were. legit and I've had them at the sheriff's. office where I was like, "What do we. do?" And my lieutenant's like, "We're. going to get some cops and we're going. to knock on that dude's door." Okay. Um, and I've also been in the FBI where you. could have gotten moved and I decided, no, I'm not. Once that case gets taken. down, I'm overt. Like, a lot of people. may not know it. I'm not trying to. insult intelligence, but when you're. arrested, I may be arrested with you. I. may not be. There's all kinds of ways we. can do a takedown. But eventually, you're going to be sitting with your. defense attorney and you're going to get.

discovery. And discovery is supposed to. be everything. Now, there have been FBI. people who did not turn over everything, and it was very wrong, and we are still. paying the price for it. But discovery. is supposed to be everything. And at. that point, you're going to hear me on a. preamble. You're going to hear me go, let's see, what's the day? You're going. to hear me go, uh, this is UC undercover. employee. This is UC12, whatever. Uh, it's Wednesday, March 26, Central time, 2:45 p.m. I'm about to walk in to meet. Joe. And they're going to hear that, and. they're going to know that I'm the. undercover. They may not know my last.

name's Payne, but they're going to know. Now, what somebody pointed out to me. was, you. know, as a cop though, you're just doing. your job and you're arresting them. As. an undercover, you've lied to them. And. I went, hm, probably should have thought. about that before I did the book, huh? Damn. Uh, but I I try not to I. don't I don't want to live my life in. fear. I'm a optimist. I'm a glasses. always half full guy. Um, God, that's.

hard to believe given your. circumstances. I don't know how for me. personally I don't know how to survived. otherwise because if I was doom and. gloom and the glass is always half. empty. Maybe this is a good time to. interject this first responders. military. Do you know what we're number. I'm talking fire medic cop uh military. You know what we're number one in? Suicide. Suicide. You know what else. we're number one in? Divorce, alcoholism. Throw in pills or whatever. you want there. We're also number one in. dying within five years after retiring.

Who signs up for that, right? You know, hell yeah. First in hell, second in. heaven. No, no, I'll pass. But yeah, so that. hurt. I mean, it's very, it's surreal. Um, and yeah, great job, but yeah, I. mean, I'm human and and uh and I did. really bond with that guy. And just like. I felt like a piece of trash when. Closine told me that I was really he. considered me really his friend. Wow.

You know, so how is he doing now? I. don't know if he's out or not. He had he. was supposed to get I think he got 12. and a half, but I didn't keep up with. it. I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because. they did something stupid in jail. But I. will tell you, talking on that trans, uh. talking on that, uh success story thing, most of my career, uh with the exception of a pedophile, um. almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit. down with them and I'll say, "Listen, I'm not saying I think you're a bad.

person. I'm not saying I disagree with. what you did. What I'm saying is is. you're an adult. You made a choice to. break the law and you got caught. So, let's just start right here. This is. whatever it's all I got. This is on the. table. was don't do that dating game BS. where you lie to me for two months and I. lie to you for two months and then when. we figure out we figure out we really do. kind of like each other now I can tell. you the truth. This is what I got and. it's just it's not dehumanizing and. they're still people and I love. connecting with people like I said. Wow,

it was a great attitude. Did you ever. think like while you're talking to. people like Scott Town like man if my. life had been different I'd gone down. the wrong roads grew up in a different. neighborhood you would be one of them? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. That's why. we had so much in common. Yeah. That's. part of the problem with life. Everybody. wants to pretend that that could never. be me. No. Abs. It could have easily. been me. And I'm like I I looked at it. and I'm like it's that proverbial fork. in the road. I went that way but I could. have easily went that way. Yeah. That's.

why I got along with them so much. Yeah. You know, again, other than like. pedophile stuff. So, what pedophile. stuff did you have to do? Uh, actually, one of the quickest undercovers I ever. did was the most satisfying. And I. actually did this one, I think, before. the Outlaws. Um, it was in San Antonio. Um, they uh there was a guy that got. picked up for molesting a kid and I. didn't know the whole backstory, but in. the San Antonio division, the agents and. stuff near me or the SWAT people, they. knew I'm the undercover guy. And uh they.

called me up because while he was in Bay. County uh in San Antonio, he approached. um somebody in jail, solicited them to. kill the kid or to find somebody that. could kill the kid. A lot of these. murder for hire plans are stupid, but. that's actually wasn't too bad of a. plan. Like if the kids these cases are. tough, they suck. They they're they're. atrocious. They are I mean it's a waste. of oxygen in my personal opinion. But. it's usually a kid from a broken home. it's after the fact. It's an adult.

versus a kid. Uh but he knew he wasn't. going to do well in prison. So he. approached uh somebody in prison who. then, as most people who are serving. time do, they are trying to get credit. to get out. And that person called his. attorney, and that attorney called the. FBI, and they worked it out to where he. introed me. So I drive up to Bear. County. I uh sign in because he put me. on the list. I go in and uh I'm in I'm.

I'm in the phone bank. It's all. stainless steel. You can't hear nothing. but baby mamas and everybody's screaming. and cussing and pissed off. And here I. am trying to get this recording through. this glass and I'm talking to the guy. And uh I said, "You know who I am?" He's. like, "Yeah." I said, "Well, I hope you. do because you put me on your list to. come see you. You know what I do?" And. he's like, "Yes." I was like slow. rolling it. I didn't know. I didn't want. to scare him off. I was like, "You know, I'm in the extermination business." And. he's like, "Yeah." I said, "I kill pests. for a living." He said, "Yep, that's.

exactly what I wanted." And I had a. picture of the kid um of course we're. working with a family on this, but I had. a picture of the kid just walking like a. surveillance photo. And I put it up on. the window and I said, "Is this the pest. uh that you want taken care of?". Something to that effect. And clearly on. the recording, thank you, Lord, it. picked it up. He said, "That's him." So. you're not going to call a bug a him, right? So. um what I found out is I met him twice. Uh just a two meat thing. But what I.

found out from the solicitor's office in. in Beay County, it was mostly women. working it because it was the the crimes. against children was combined with the. domestic violence. unit. And Joe, when I went walking in. there and they're like, "This is Scott.". I mean, they all stood. It's like some. TV show. They stood up and they started. clapping. I'm like, "I don't. understand." And and this isn't me chest. beating. That's not what I'm trying. But. it's like, what is going on? They're. like, thank you so much. You're so And. I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing. my job. What they told me is that guy.

had walked on four molestation cases. before. And he also walked on some uh possession. of uh uh somehow he got out of. possession of child pornography stuff. And uh but when he found out when they. approached him and said I was an. undercover and that they got him, he. plead guilty to hiring me to kill the. kid and plead guilty to the uh. molestation of the kid. Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first. time, he threw me off guard cuz he. starts he was like, "Yeah, yeah." And I.

go, "All right, well, what do you got?". This that and the other. We're talking. thing. He goes, "Hey, I'd like you to. kill the rest of his family, too. They're in Wisconsin." And I'm I. actually giggled a little bit because it. threw me off. I went, "Well, I'm not above traveling, but. let's deal with one pest at a time." I'm. like, you g I'm thinking in my head, damn gum, man. You know, but he knew as. most pedophiles do, you're not going to. do well in prison. So, his idea was kill. the kid, kill the family, and then. there's no evidence like he did. Yeah. He just gets to walk because there's no. witness to show up to trial. Jesus.

Christ. Right. Yeah. And and then being around. that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come. in, they assign you as the training. agent, and they might be working that. stuff. And I will tell you for me. personally. um that's tough to work for me. It was. before I even had girl before I even had. kids. I remember seeing like like five. images. We we hit a guy. He was actually. a professor at University of Texas. Panama and he was so vigilant. I mean he.

had like he had all the the the child. porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex. Oh Jesus. So, I mean, you. could say, "I want Asian male 11." And. he would have I mean, oh my god. And it. was just sick. Now, did he come from a. messed up thing? Yeah. Turns out his. mother had molested him and his brother. would. We tie them in the basement, tie. them to each other, make them have sex. with each other. Oh my god. But it's. horrific. But break the chain, man. Break the chain. So, yeah, I saw I saw.

like five photos and I was I was messed. up for probably a week or two. A. professor. Yeah. My wife would try to. she'd try to touch me. Not even just to. be in, I mean, know just to touch and. I'll be like, "Uhuh, no." I'm like, "I. can't, man. I got to get this [ __ ] out. of my head." Wow. Now, later on in. Undercovers, I could be the guy to drive. and pick you up. I could show you. pictures. Is this what you want? Kind of. thing. But to like sit there and look. through that stuff, my brain's not cut. out for that. Um, but there are those. who are, and in the FBI, they if you're.

looking at that, you have to be. psychologically assessed as well, as you. should. I could only imagine. How are. these guys getting these videos? Are. they making them, Joe? It is. There's. like See, that's the thing, right? This. is one of the So huge. So freaking huge. That's the scary thing because most. people aren't aware of it, and this is. one of the big conspiracy theories that. there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real. Yeah. Yeah. Human. trafficking. Now, I I can sway on some. of the human trafficking stuff because. I've seen human trafficking from the. border all the way to the hotel room.

Um, if it's it's rarely a hooker ever on. free will or an escort of on free will, but if they're out there doing I I don't. know. It gets a little muddy on some of. the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking. They got. brought in when they were underage. Now. they're a product of what they've been. forced to do. You know, it's uh it's. very sad. But as far as the child porn. stuff goes, it's insane. I've worked. with some they call them IACS uh um uh. crimes against children. Um, and there's.

so much out there, but there was so much at one. This is. just me in in Tennessee. I'm with them. They have so many hits on whatever dark. web thing it is. Might be Discord. I'm. trying to think of what it used to be, but there's all kinds of stuff like that. that they'll go to these in what they. believe or what are encrypted apps uh. that are based overseas. So they don't. think that the FBI or feds here, the.

alphabet boys and girls can do subpoenas. and get that stuff. That's why they use. those. Now, does that mean that. everybody on Discord is bad? Absolutely. not. Telegram, no. But do people go. there to do bad things? Yep. Yeah. And. it's just like you could go I remember. them showing me stuff as the undercover. coordinator. I'm over there and I'm. looking at stuff and they're showing me. what all the hits they've got right now. Just people hitting and through the. databases. You could do knocking talks. every freaking day all day long. Hey. man, how you doing? Hey, uh you mind if.

we look at your computer? You might not. get in there, but Yeah, it's it's a. mess. A mess. And so there's a whole. ring of people all across the country. Yeah. Or just mom and pops farmering out. their kids. Oh my god. Yeah. Uh sex. across state lines. Oh yeah. Not good at. all. There's. just like again I'll mention Macallen. several times. This isn't undercover. stuff but case agent stuff. I mean there.

might might look at doing a book on case. agent stuff. I was down there working. the cartel with me and my and the people. I worked with. That was back when Ozr. Cardanis ran the Gulf cartel. So it was. violent violent as you know what. But. there was some kind of SOP. There was. like a procedure. Um, but I mean when I. try to tell people, I'm like, "Look, I. don't care whether you're left or right. I I meet all kinds of people. If you're. extreme left, I'm probably gonna tell. you you're an idiot. If you're extreme. right, I know you're an idiot." Because. I've been with them, you.

know? I'm like, I just want to bring it. Which what's so funny is you start here. and you go far left and they're like, I. want I'm a socialist. I'm a socialist. I. want everything for free. I want it. And. you start here on the far right and. they're like, I want Hitler. I want. Hitler. But that's socialism. You get. here, it's the same [ __ ] They just want. stuff for free. I want all whites. Well, that'll fix everything, you know? It's. just it's insane. But down on the. border, you tell people, you're like, man, they just I'm not saying that I'm. not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico.

and stuff, but it a lot of it runs on. corruption. A lot of it runs on money. And they do not value life like we do. I. mean, man, they chop heads off. It's. al-Qaeda stuff. I mean, they're sawing. heads off. You find a van full of eight. heads. Um, we worked kidnappers and. extortions down there all the time back. then. I mean, one of the one of the. cases, Ozl, it was we thought it was a. wives tail. Um, and this is sick. So, I. apologize to people that think this is. way gross, but it's real. Um, the first.

one isn't that gross. Uh, he had a line. He would feed people to a line. A line. And that was the rumor. And then I can't. remember if they went up in a fixed wing. or a helicopter, but they flew over the. line. And somebody was asking the other. one, "Hey, what are all those bones?". And they were like, "A po, you know, chicken." That's a that's a big ass. chicken. That chicken looks like a. femur, you know. So, there's that. But. the one that was really sick is uh so. when they would kidnap you like like if. you lost a load or they thought you.

stole something or you didn't pay your. quotas because even as a as a. undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, uh illegal. alien smuggler, um you had to pay quotas. to the cartel to smuggle through their. territory. Same thing with dope. If you. got behind on that, they kidnap you. Same MMO. Three suburbans pull up. somewhere in South Texas, jump out on. such and such corner. Everybody's in. black BDUs. They grab you. That was the. safest. They were the enforcement. cartel. They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the families saying, "We. want 100 grand, 300 grand, whatever.".

You start, we'd start brokering the deal. because we have border leaison officers. and we would do cross trainings with. military and police in in Mexico. So the. border leaison officer calls and goes, "Hey, it's such and such time of day on. this corner. Three suburbans pulled up. The guy's name is this. It was this. time. Okay. 30 minutes, 40 30 minutes to. an hour later, we get a call back. They. got him. What's the deal? I he he. brought a load back and it was missing. 100 grand. Okay. So, now I'm I'm in the. house with the family going, "Okay. Uh.

they want 300 grand." Well, we don't. have it. Well, they don't have it. Uh. they want 100 grand. Uh we don't have. it. Well, what do you got? We got 60. grand. What else they got? Remember my. V8 4x4? They got a Suburban. Uh how many. miles are on it? And here we are at. midnight rolling the Suburban over the. bridge with $60,000 to get the son back. Wow. So, one of the we thought was a. wife's tail is that Ozel had a I I don't. know what the politically correct term. is these days, but a [ __ ] Small.

person. I don't know. Uh but that the. rumor was back then that he had a [ __ ]. who was very wellendowed and he would. rape people for the. cartel. You let that soak in for a. little bit. Jesus. Uh, my comedy starts coming out. I'm. like, how do you get the small person? I. I don't know. Yeah, that's his thing. Like, so, uh, we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve, uh, we started getting calls. I was actually.

driving, uh, to Arizona for vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources. and calling all the other agents. the. this guy had uh basically carjacked a. car in Rio Grand City. So directly. across the river is Kamargo. So he gets. in there. He didn't look in the back. seat as an infant. Now the cartil's. pissed at him for bringing heat and they. are beating him and they're I mean it's. they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at them, cigarette.

burns, cigar burns real big um uh. battery cables, stuff like that, threatening them. And uh we got him. back. But when he came across the. bridge, my peers called me and go, "Holy. [ __ ] Scott, this real." I go, "What are. you talking about?" He said, "This dude. is. balling." When the call came in and the. cartel was like, "Okay, let this one. go." The [ __ ] was in the room. That. guy was crying when he came back across. the bridge. He was getting ready to get. raped. Wow. Slightly sick, right? Yeah.

Slightly. That's a different world. Yeah. That's. probably the wor least bad thing they. could do to you. I don't know. I don't know how I look in the mirror. after all that. I don't know. I mean, you get out alive, I guess. It's insane. Or do you? So, other than the pedophile. cases, uh what what were the most like. shocking cases that you had to do? H. Well, they're all a little shocking in. their own way. Um the pedophile one's.

got to be the hardest one to like sleep. at night. Yeah. But what a but what a. good feeling to get him. Right. That's a. different feeling. That's a. non-conlicted feeling when you get him. Good. Yeah. When she called me uh when. the assistant solicitor called me and. said, "Hey, he plead guilty. He got he. got 20 for I can't remember which was. for which, but he got 20 years for uh I. believe the molestation in 10 for hiring. me to kill him." So, and then they had. to do state of Texas, 85%. Um so, yeah, it's going to be a.

tough ride for him. Pardon the pun. Yeah. But uh yeah, so crazy stuff, man. I mean that some of that neo-Nazi stuff. was just insane. How'd you get involved. in that? Well, uh number one, I go where. my skill set takes me. Number two, we. kind of go to what the shift is in the. FBI. Were people doing a lot of biker. club stuff anymore? Not at that time. Uh. I was a criminal uh criminal. investigator for pretty much my entire. career, but towards the end uh in.

Tennessee um I switched over to the. joint terrorism task force. And I really. did it because it was just I was having. some. disagreements. Some would be lightly, but I was having disagreements with. management. And my MO had always been, even though I'd burned myself out. before, once I got to Tennessee, I set. up accountability buddies. I set up trip. wires and stopped saying yes to. everything and made ways to relax and. balance and get myself.

back. Um but towards the end uh we I I. switched over to joint chairman task. force because again my emmo was try to. be above average on your squad. Um, and. then if you're kicking butt on stats and. stuff like that, then uh maybe they. won't say no to let me go do the. undercover. Maybe they won't say no to. let me go help put on this SWAT school. or this SWAT call out. And that was what. I did. Um, but that wasn't working for.

me in Tennessee anymore. And I I went to. the the head of the division and. requested to be moved. So I went to. joint terrorism task force and uh my. skill set kind of led right into that. domestic terrorism stuff because it was. a like in the state of Tennessee you. have Aryan Nations uh which was the. Tennessee uh department of uh. corrections TDOC uh prison gang but it's. white supremacy. Um so as a case agent I. started working that stuff and then I.

just started getting more exposed to. those kind of cases. So now when the. canvases start coming up or we're. running an undercover op ourselves, uh. those cases are coming in and it's like, okay, I'll do that one unless anybody's. got a disagreement, you know. And that's. what I started doing. That's how we kind. of got into those cuz we started getting. more threats, you know, after the. Charlottesville stuff. Now it's really. getting kind of on the radar. They're. like, man, this is maybe we should be. putting. more resources. maybe we should be. putting the FBI saying maybe we should.

be putting more resources to this. domestic terrorism threat and that's. what I started getting. I mean I I would. go. into I kind of mentioned it earlier but. a a neo-Nazi group uh but it's mainly. online and here I am for five months. reading post after post and I if I woke. up after six hours of sleep and there. were I was 1500 post behind I'd rewind. it and read them all for five months. because I didn't want to miss anything. Me personally, I didn't want to miss. anything or anything bad happened. because I missed something. But after 5.

months and maybe meeting them once or. twice, there was it's all first. amendment protected. They weren't they. weren't doing any thing to prepare for. the viol to cause violence. They're just. preparing for the day and then when the. day happens then they'll be ready. But. again, uh I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever. I have to explain. I'm. like, look, in the United States, we. have a constitution and your first. amendment uh is freedom of speech. I. said, you can walk out in the street. right here and say, I hate every say a.

racial slur. I hope every racial slur. dies. That's not illegal. As you know, you've seen it. You can burn American. flags. Freedom of speech. Try that in. China, right? Let me know how that works. for you. Death to China. Light the flag. on fire. I'm not sure how long you'll. last, right? Not long. But um that's. what we that's that's the hard thing. about working domestic terrorism is. there's no federal domestic terrorism. statute. So you're trying to see what.

crimes are they committing, if any, and. what can we do to get them off the. street if they're planning bad things. So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi. organization? Did you actually meet with. them in person or did was it mostly. online? Uh, so I'll just jump to the. base, okay? Because the base was the one. that's kind of the beginning and the end. of the book, they were actively. recruiting. I mean, I was in the clan, too, for a little while, uh, for the.

job. I got to be careful I say it right. People click, right? Back when I was in. the clan, uh, we were good old boys. Um, but, uh, the they were recruiting openly. online. the base was and the base is an. accelerationist group and that's what I. I again great detail in the book uh in. the podcast but the thing is is most. people hear white supremacy they think. hoods and robes and crosses on fire.

right that's not this man the these are. these are this is why they're called. accelerationist there's a book out there. called siege uh written by James Mason. longtime white supremacist it's a weird. book it's basically articles. and interviews all just shoved together. But this guy kind of idolized and. interviewed people like Charles Manson, you know, what a great role model. Um I mean, if you're looking uh. but it he he created a group called Adam.

Waffen and this is what accelerationism. is because when I go to infiltrate the. base, I'm just answering stuff they're. putting out there. Emails they're. posting on Gab, uh save your race, join. the base. We're a survivalist group. Um, email is at. thebass_1protonmail.com. So, I started. answering that stuff after about a week. or so of emails back and forth at me. asking me everything, my ethnicity, my. height, weight, uh, when was my red pill. moment, which they kind of use the.

matrix thing there. So, if they say, "When were you redpilled?" As a Christ. follower, it's the same thing as when I. was baptized or when I got saved, right? So if if you're an accelerationist or. that level of neo-Nazi and they say what. was your red pill moment you need to. know it because it's kind of like the. big deal that's when you. said right hate all other people. So. after about a week week or so of emails. I get on uh they tell me to download the. wire app similar to WhatsApp. You can. call and talk on it and stuff like that.

and create groups all over it. So, I do. like about an hour and 15 minute. interview panel of like four or five. people asking me all kinds of stuff. I. answered the best I could, best I. prepared for, and then they gave me a. 24-hour rest period because they said, "Now that you know what we are, we're. going to give you 24 hours to think. about if you want to be a part of us, and we want 24 hours to think about it.". But this is what they told me. accelerationism was. They. said accelerationists, they call it.

siege culture, kind of barlaying off the. book, but they do not believe there's a. political solution to save the white. race. They believe that society is. either going to collapse on its own or. from man-made events, and they want to. speed that up. The group I was in was. calling that booaloo, the booaloo. And. everything always ends with an. ethnostate. Now, it's not saying that. the groups that I was in, they weren't. going to take over the entire United. States, but they the group I was in, one. section was looking at property and land. in the Appalachian Mountains. One.

section of the base was looking at the. upper peninsula of Michigan. One section. of the base had property in the Pacific. Northwest. So, um, you get in there, you start learning. that ideology, but again, in the. beginning, I'm just ingratiating. I. don't I mean we know they've been saying. crazy stuff online but is it illegal per. se? No. But are they planning on taking. steps to do some bad things? And that. goes back to that domestic terrorism. culture. You go in Telegram or whatever. you you've got your your Terren and your.

Breviks and they're in there 4chan 8chan. and they're posting right before they go. and commit all the murders. You know, here I am. I'm going live. Watch this. Yeah. So, but imagine being in law. enforcement and trying to look at all. these thousands of post and trying to. figure out, well, which one's actually. going to follow through? Which one is. seriously planning on doing something? So, you always got to stay vigilant and. keep going after it. So, what were these. guys planning on doing? What was their.

their accelerate moment? Well, per the siege culture, they like. to do like um guerilla warfare tactics. So they're against the Charlottesville. stuff, being in a group, picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all. this stuff. They're against that. They're like, "That's stupid." You know, number one, you're making yourself a. target. You're not doing anything. It's. more guerilla warfare tactics where uh. let's say over here in Austin, power. grid goes down. Over here, train gets.

derailed. Over here, water systems. poisoned. Anything to create chaos and. killing of anybody left. anti-fas. um. non-whites very anti-semitic very like. way more. than it kind of opened my eyes when I. started getting into some of these. neo-Nazis because for the most part I. thought when I thought racism I thought. white against black right but these. these neo-Nazi groups I was in man they. are they are anti-semitic man they.

cannot stand Jews wow it's like like. it's sickening if you if you listen to. it but again they want that Hitler. They. want Hitler back. I mean, some of these. guys were like talking about uh concave. Earth, hollow earth. Hitler's still. alive. He's in hollow earth. He's with. giant white men who are Anglo white with. red hair and 15 plus foot tall. And I'm. like, and I go, "So, where are these 15. foot tall white. guys?" And they're like, "Well, they're.

in Middle Earth with Hitler. They're. waiting." And I go, "For what? If we're. going to take NBA contracts? Come on back. Let's do this. Let's take. this thing down. And sometimes I'm just. comical with them. You're like, "Hey, are we neo-Nazis? Yeah, we're going to. get the ethnostate. Yeah, we're ready. for the bugaloo. Yeah, we're building. our kit. Yeah. Who's going to be. Hitler?" And everybody goes, "Are they going to be one, buddy? Are we. going to fight it out right now? Who's. going to win this thing?" But what. happened with the base is a lot of them.

were into the pagan, and I I say this. loosely. I have plenty of friends that. are pagan. Um, Satru and and they are great people. Love it. What do you mean by pagan? Um, like the like uh so there's different. pantheons, but the most common one is. Norse North Norse. mythology. Basically the you know it's. basically the Marvel universe. Uh so. they worship ancient Viking culture.

Yeah. Odin, uh Thor, whatever. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. Um, like. there's a church for that. Well, I don't. want to say a church per se, but yeah, they'll hold block. A blot is just think. Viking kind of stuff. The ones that do. it that are serious, uh, they they're upset that white. supremacists have taken their stuff and. used it. But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that. Norse mythology, too. He had, you know, he had you looking for Thor's hammer or. whatever, the Holy Grail biblical and. all this stuff. Um, but there's there's.

Christian identity which is making a. comeback in the white supremacy realm. Not to be confused with Christianity. Christian identity is, if you can wrap. your mind around this, they a lot of. them have a uh it's the dual seed line. belief. So they take the story of the. garden, garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the. forbidden tree. They take that story and. they say, "Okay, it's still the same. except the fruit of the forbidden tree.

is a sexual act with the serpent who is. a man of color, also known as Satan.". And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain and they are the. mud race from then on. That's what they. call them. Mud, non-white, mud race from. then on down. But the procreation from. Adam and Eve is Abel and that's the pure. white race. That's just one of the many. belief systems. So when you see I know, right? Yeah. I'm like shaking my head. like what the [ __ ] What? How did you. get that?

Um what are they using as like. references? Like how do they get this. information? Uh so as far back as that I. know, I'm sure it came out earlier, but. there was the Aryan Nation uh Reverend. Butler Red Ray Fair and all that stuff. And they taught that they taught the. Christian identity church of Jesus. Christ Christian. Um, and they take that. and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is. just a white guy. And so, did you. physically meet with these guys and. infiltrate their organization? Uh, yeah, some of some of those, yes. Um, and the.

Christian identity was kind of in the. clan belief that I that I was in for a. short moment. But the the pagan there, just like I said that the Christian. identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse. mythology or if you're an Egyptian. pantheon or whatever and they're. twisting it towards their white. supremacy. And that's not what paganism. really is. If you know, like again, I've. got friends that do it. They're upset. with white supremacists using their.

stuff. But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an aatri priest, and he led the first blood I ever. attended, BLOT, which is kind of like. the worship ceremony um for pagans. I. mean, we're down there with our shirts. off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking. me as if we're Vikings, and then uh. praying to our gods, and they would take. uh wood, um carved wood, and they would. carve runes and like white supremacy. symbols in it, and we would cut. ourselves and bleed on the runes, and.

then set that on fire and pray until the. fire went out. Whoa. Yeah. And that was kind of How. many of these guys are out there in the. world? I don't know. I mean, there's. there's academia and stuff that they're. like, "There's millions of white. supremacists and Nazis are going to be. on your doorstep tomorrow." I'm not. going to say that. Well, they want to. call everything white supremacy, which. is a real problem cuz there's actual. white supremacy out there. Yeah. And. when you call everything white. supremacist, just somebody disagreeing. or having a different belief system. Watching a video of a a [ __ ] crazy.

professor who was saying that marriage. is white. supremacist. It's the craziest video of. all time. There's an undercover video. where they they interviewed this lady. and she didn't they were asking her. questions and she didn't know she was. being recorded. She was a professor. Yeah. Like marriage is thin privilege. It's white supremacy. It's, you know, male privilege which leads to white. supremacy and white privilege and like. just a bunch of gobblygook nonsense. words that she was attaching to just.

people getting married. Clearly she's. not a Christ follower because if you if. you follow the Bible Yeah. it lays out. what marriage is. Yeah. Well, she's. definitely not. She's a cook. But it's. the problem is calling everything white. supremacy. It kind of it obscures the. fact that there's really people like the. people that you're running into. Mhm. They're real. Yeah. And it's just like. how many of them? And where are they? Thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Yeah. I'd say I don't know about hundreds of. thousands, but I'd say thousands. Thousands. Because a lot of times if.

you're in that community and you're. looking, let's say this is a telegram. channel over here and it's terror wave. or whatever it is before it was taken. down and you see all these monikers like. I was pale horse in the base I was pale. horse that was my moniker and then you. see pestilence and you see TMBB the. militant Buddhist and you see helter. skelter and you see well you might go to. another group maybe they've changed. their moniker but you start realizing. hey did you used to be pestilence in. other channel yeah that's me all right. you know what I Right.

But what's scary is like in that base. case, um I, as I said before, I'm a tactical. instructor, firearms instructor. I'm an. alert instructor, which is right near. where we're at right now, um in San. Marcos, Texas. Uh and but you can't go. undercover and help these uh help these. guys train or help them get better. because they might be doing bad things. So, I go in, I had my whole backstory,

former skin head, former biker, and my. skill set was like hand-tohand combat. Um, could I shoot? Yeah. But I let them. lead me. We went out there and the first. time we did tactical and firearms. training, it was led by a 19-year-old. kid and it was good. It was good. And. he's not military. And I'm like I'm. watching I'm like, where the hell did. you learn this? So, a lot of stuff. happens on gaming systems because. they're so realistic now. Wow. Yeah. I. mean, these kids, you can go on and if. you got your mic on, you might get your.

butt handed to you by an 11 year old kid. who's telling you to clear the hard. corner and slice the pie. They're using. the same verbiage. And I'm like, "Holy. crap." You know, virtual world meets. real world. Only problem is in the. virtual world, you get to. respawn. Not so much in the real world, you know. Uh, I'm going to respawn now. But, uh, yeah, he let it. And they were. shooting fast and accurate. They It. wasn't the best. They were mistakes. Um, but I was impressed with how safe they.

were, the two guys running at TMBB and. Pestilence, because that was a concern. for me. Like, if you could see the. aerial footage, like when we first go. out there and they're shooting, I'm way. back behind them because I'm like, I. don't know how these people are guns. I've seen plenty of bad shooters do some. stupid things on the line. Um, and then. we start working like that. So, I start. gaining their trust, do a couple of. blotss, uh, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever. And then it starts uh we're finding out.

a little bit more. Not necessar. necessarily anything criminal uh except. for the fact that there was a Canadian. um who was part of their basically it's. like it would be like their national. guard. Um but he got doxed. And for the. listeners that don't know, doxing. basically is being outed. So a lot of. these accelerationist groups are big on. putting up flyers and stickers. Uh they. go by and they slap up stickers. everywhere, you know, join the b save. your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code, it takes you.

right to Bitshoot to a video of us of a. propaganda propaganda recruitment video. we filmed in Georgia. Wow. Of us. shooting and everything. Um. and so there's one in Canada. He puts up. flyers. somebody answers it uh to make. again it's more in depth in the book but. he meets this guy uh the guy does the. same panel kind of thing I did but then. he gets vetted face to face so when you. get vetted face to face it's going to be. a little bit more intense they do a face.

tof face vetting of this guy uh and he. says uh the the punish snake was the. moniker his name is Patrick Matthews he. was up there and he vetted him face to. face and said he's good to go so after. about a week to two weeks. tops in the main chat group, this dude. Bales. And it turns out that he was a. journalist in Canada who went on his own. and met Patrick uh Matthews and. infiltrated at least to a certain degree.

the base. And then he puts out in a big. news article up there that this guy is. Patrick Matthews. And so Pat. uh RCMP comes to his house, takes his. guns, he gets booted from the National. Guard thing, loses his job, his parents. don't like him anymore, and they they. lose him. They find his truck near the. border of the United States. So we're. all looking for him. And you have to. realize that on the base case, let's. just say you've got 40 targets. Well,

they're all over the world, a lot of. them in the United States. Well, every. one of those FBI field offices are open. separate cases, but we're all trying to. work together because it's the same. group. And. uh we get to a point to where I'm sorry, we were looking for uh uh Patrick. Matthews and there's an unbelievable. case agent. Uh we had we had several on. the case, but Nate PL was running um the. case out of out of uh Seattle because.

the leader of the base had property in. in Seattle's territory. But there was a. case agent named Rasheed who's out of. Baltimore and he's running for the guys. there. Rasheed was able to figure out by. some unbelievable phone analysis. uh. when Patrick came into the United States. and we're tracking. We're all looking. for him. We think we might know where. he's at. And I show up at a training in. North Georgia in Rome, Georgia, and he's.

there. Uh when I pulled up, I see. vehicles and I'm counting heads under. the under the barn and I'm like, "There's one extra person. I know that's. that person's car." And I said, "Well, I'll see when I walk up." I walk up and. by then his hair had all grown out and. had a red bushy beard and he's like soon. as he started talking it was a Canadian. accent and I was like hey man welcome to. the United States brother. So now we had. him there and now we're starting to find. out a little bit more about death plots. and this that and the other but is it. just drunk talk or they actually. planning on doing something right? And. then that's when we get to the uh the.

the big. Halloween of 2019 hate camp. Um, and. there was base members that came in from. all over the United States. Uh, and. again, I'd done some pagan blotss with. them. Like I said, cut yourself. I. remember the first time I did it, I'm I. was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my. own knife? And. uh that when it was time to cut your. finger, the tip of their knife was. broken. And I'm like, well, I'm not. going to slice my damn arm open, my.

tats. And I'm not going to slice my. finger open. I'm trying to stab my. finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note. to self, bring your own knife next time. So, I did. Uh, but we're doing uh. Halloween. We're there and I doze off. We've already done hand-to-hand combat, some firearms stuff, had a couple of. drinks, and I'm charging my phone in my. truck. It's really cold, so I kind of. doze off. I wake up to pounding on my. window. Bell Horse, Bell Horse, you got. to get up. You got to see this. You got. to see this. I'm like, what's going on?

And they're like, "Man, remember us. talking about a sacrifice and a goat?". I'm like, "Yeah." They go, "We got the. goat." So, I get out and there's this. ram uh in the back of one of the members. trucks. They had gone not far away to a. house that had three rams and they all. dressed. up and and I'll paint the picture for. you because uh the clothing the the. camouflage pattern that the base wore.

was flect because flearn pattern is. German uh again how Hitler kind of. stuff. So they went where balaclavas. cover everything up. They hop fences, steal this ram and bring it back to the. farm in Rome, Georgia. So I wake up and. I walk out there and this thing's. crapping all over the bed of the truck. And one of the members, pretty big. fella, he says, "Man, this thing's. [ __ ] everywhere." And I said, "Well, hell, I wouldn't be too if I just got. kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and flearn. and balaclavas, you know." Um, so now.

we're kind of preparing and I'm. thinking, man, are we really going to do. this? And I walked over to the guy his. he he went by Eisen and he was going to. be leading the blot. And Eisen says, "Uh. I I go over to him and I go, "Man, is it. is it bad that I feel sorry for the. goat?" And he says, "You can't let the. goat hear you say that." And I'm like, "Okay, dude. Tell." And he's like, "Uh". he goes, "This is a sacrifice to Odin. This this this is a beautiful sacrifice.

Th we love this ram. We love this goat. Whatever the hell it was, they we love. it." and we're showing it love and it is. being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet. Odin. So the rule was uh everybody leave. your weapons and we're going to go down. to the holy spot and deep in the woods. 100 acre farm by the way. Um and we're. walking down there and the goats just. making all kinds of racket and we get. down I'm sorry I should have let me. rewind just a little bit. I'm trying to.

figure out in my. head, should I do this or should I just. blow the case right now? And I'm. thinking, well, they said they took the. goat. Okay, so that's theft of an. animal. That's not federal. I'm like. trying to go through my head. So, I go. to my truck and I lean into one of my. devices and I'm like, "Hey, if y'all can. hear me, because when I was out in the. field, I'm covered." So, for that 4-day. hate camp, they were covering me 247. running shifts. uh they being law.

enforcement. Um and I go and I go, "Hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure. we're getting ready to go down here and. sacrifice this animal." And I'm running. it through my brain, and I know they. said they stole it, but I can't come up. with a good enough reason to stop this. right now. If you guys don't want me to. do this, you got to send me a sign and. let me know. And I waited and I waited. and it was crickets. And then I said,

"Okay, I guess I'm going down to the. woods." So we go. down. You had your chance. I was. waiting. Oh my god. So we go down to the. woods and. uh we get there and I don't know how I. ended up at the back of the goat. We're. in a circle around the goat and I'm at. the back of it and Eizen, who's leading. the block, is talking about we're going. to be starting the wild hunt. In Norse. mythology, the Wild Hunt is basically. Odin and a bunch of other gods going out.

in the middle of the night and whipping. the crap out of every other god that. they didn't like or whatever. In the. twisted version of the base, starting. the wild hunt was going to start with. the sacrifice of this goat which he. named Gar. His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather. To show. love to the goat, he named it Gar after. his. grandfather. Okay. So he says once we. commit, we do the sacrifice and it goes. to Valhalla that that the wild hunt will.

start but the wild hunt was going to be. cleansing the world of non-whites. So the goat was the start of this whole. wild hunt. The wild hunt. It's it's in. North mythology. It's called the wild. hunt, but again they're twisting it for. white supremacy beliefs. So, he's got this like machete type. object and uh I'm at the back of the. goat and he's going through he's as Odin. prayer and he he didn't lead the block. near as good as the actual Assad priest. that did it before, but he's trying and.

he's going back with this um he's going. back with this machete and I'm holding. the back of the goat and somebody's. holding the front of the goat and he's. coming down. He's practicing, practicing, and he's a pretty stocky. kid. And finally, somebody says, "Just. do it." Man, he rares back with all of. his strength and comes down whacked. right on the back of the neck of the. goat. I don't even know if it broke a. hair, Joe. I don't know if it's because. the backstrap of the goat was so thick. or the blade was dull, but when he hit.

it, all you heard was bad. And I and and. for that split second, I'm holding the. back of the goat and I go, "Oh, man. I. just saw blood. I just pictured. something bad happening." And then. somebody says, "Has anybody got a gun?". Do you hear, "Do it again. Do it again. It might take two swings and anybody got. a gun." Well, I told you we weren't. supposed to bring any weapons down. Well, this one cat who was probably the. least qualified person to be carrying a. firearm anywhere within miles of us. said, "Yeah, I got mine." And we were. like, "What are you doing with your.

gun?" So TMBB takes the gun, hands it to. Eisen. Eisen, we're still all on our. knees in a circle around the goat for. this sacrifice. Eisen points the gun at. the goat goat's head and then turns the. opposite way. Oh Jesus. And I that's. when the instructor enemy comes out. I'm. like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." He's like, "What?" I go, "Look at. what you're shooting at, man. We're all. in a circle. What the hell are you. doing?" So then he chambers around and. gets up close. Pow! Even on the.

recording, you can hear the goat hit the. ground. Well, sitting there twitching. It's been like two, three minutes. It's. still twitching. And I'm like, hey, why. don't you go uh put another bullet in. the. ram. He's like, I think it's dead. And I. go, I'm just saying for the love of the. goat and it being happy in Vajala, let's. give it a good clean kill. I'm trying to. use this logic against and he puts. another one in it. And then then. somebody says, "Yeah, it's definitely.

dead." So you think it's over. No, it's. not over. Now they slice the goat's. throat and fill a cup with all of his. blood. And one of the guys had brought a. sheet of acid. Eisen had brought a sheet. of acid. Oh boy. Yeah. Right. Uh it's. supposed to help with the shaman, which. is kind of entering the spirit world. during your blot. You're going to get high. And uh I'm. shining the light cuz it's pitch dark. We're in the middle of the woods. And. I'm shining the light for Eisen. He's. going around and what's happening is is.

he's tearing off a tab. Not everybody. did it. Of course, I didn't do it, but. he tears off a tab, puts it under. tongue. Some people never even done it. before, and then you chase it down with. the blood of the goat. Oh, part of the. sacrifice. So, he he gets around. Some. people do it. Most people do it. A. couple of us didn't. Um, and then it gets to me and I'm. looking at the the cup full of blood and. by the time by this time it's. coagulating. It's all clotty and I'm. looking at it and uh and I'm like, "Oh.

man, I do not want to turn that up. I. really don't want to turn it up." And uh. I think it was pestilence that gave me. an out. He said, "Man, you can just. taste." So I stuck my finger all the way. down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked. all the blood off my finger, and that. was my way of dealing with the. sacrifice. Not exactly fear factor. stuff, but I would have sucked. I would. have been good on that show except for. the gross stuff, but yeah. but. disgusting. So over the next actually. the next day of training was completely. obliterated because.

everybody 90% of the members were all. still high been up all night on acid. So. we couldn't train the next day and I was. pissed. I told him this is wasted. freaking day. I said you sons of you. know I was just give him a hard time. And then uh by Saturday we were back. training again. And then by Sunday. night, I'm sorry, Friday we were. training again. And by Saturday night, we uh did a bunch more training through. the day, like you know, navigating the. land, living off the living off the. land, building bunkers and stuff like.

that. Um and then it's time to shoot. some more for the uh propaganda video. So we go back down in the woods. And at. this now we're doing a bonfire at the. holy spot and we are burning American. flags and we're burning holy bibles. uh while everybody's yelling f your. Jewish god and death to America stuff. like that. And I remember the one kid. that was pretty clumsy. He almost fell.

in the fire trying to light the flag on. fire. And in the video you can see me. grab the other side. Part of me wanted. to just let him fall, you know, just see. him go. I I don't know if he went up in. flames or not, but uh a little. Darwinism, but I hold the flag. We burn. the American flag. We're screaming all. that. And and they take they take uh. holy Bibles and they, this is on the. video, they lay them face down in the. fire and I watch the fire go up. It's. coming back down. We've been there a. minute. Hell yeah. High-fiving white.

power, all this stuff. And it's coming. back down. And if you've ever seen like. um like a book in a fire, all those. pages, they get that just it looks a. certain way, kind of ashy. Well, uh the. one guy, the Canadian guy, he he he. can't not screw with the fire. He's over. there. He's probably still got as. system. Who knows? He's still poking the. fire like, "Oh man." So, he's stoking it. back up. Well, while he's trying to. stoke it back up, he flips something. over. A Bible opens face up and there's.

nothing burn on it at all. like the. outside's charred, but there's not a. single page. burnt. And I'm like, "Okay, that's different." So, he's. trying to get it started. He He starts. tearing page by page, gets it on fire. Bonfire goes back up. We're all doing. our thing. Bonfire comes back down. He's. poking the coals again. I'll be damned. if another Bible doesn't flip open, completely unburned. And I watched them. put it on their face first. Now, I know.

some people with science and they're. like, "Well, in a lot of Bibles, the. page is made out of clay and they don't. burn." Listen, I watched a flag burn. I. watched all that stuff burn. Um, and I. actually have a picture that if you blow. it up, I didn't realize it. I was just. taking pictures like everybody else was. taking pictures. But I I was in my hotel. room one night just going through my. pictures and I blew it up and you can. clearly see Holy Bible in the flames. So, I'm a believer. Um, my faith is huge. throughout the book. I would have not. have been able to do any of it in my.

opinion. Um, but I remember when that. second Bible flipped open, one of the. one of the base members goes, he goes, "Man, these effing Bibles just won't. burn." And I remember, I did it very. nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but. I did a little Sammy Sosa, you know, to. the sky. You know, I'm like, "Yeah, you. get them, Lord." Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, that's funny." By the way, if you want. to blow everybody up, y'all just let. Scotty know and I'll be real still right. now. But uh yeah, so after that week, I.

kind of said I I got a pretty dumb sense. of humor, but I got back to the office. and I said, "Man, I've been doing. undercover work off and on since 1996.". And I said, "I know my skill set takes. me to different places than other. people." I said, "But I have. never had to burn Bibles, burn an. American flag, and I damn sure it wasn't. with a group of people that went out and. stole a goat and sacrificed it at a. pagan ritual and drank his blood." I. said, "I've done that in three days with. these guys." And I mean, I felt weird. I. felt weird when I got back. I just, you.

know, I call I even texted my pastor. I'm like, I need you to say a prayer. I. I just felt I don't know, dirty, something wrong. Yeah. Felt weird, you. know. It's just weird that guys like. that exist and organize and find other. guys like that and get together. It's. online. It's this phone. I know. Listen, a lot of these kids were young. Um, I. say kids because I I it was the first. alias I ever did where I made myself. younger my whole FBI career. I was. always two years older. It was just easy. to remember. Uh I mean I turned 40 with.

the Outlaws. So when I turned 42 years. later in real life and I'm in wherever I. was at Mallen or Tennessee, I'm like, "Yeah, my other party was a little. better. I'm not going to lie. I'm like, you know, the Outlaws party was I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it's not really nothing compared to. when I turned 42 years ago." Um, but for. the base, I had to hustle and get in. there fast because we were getting calls. from world working partners because. again, this is online. You hop in those. groups. There's people from South.

Africa, uh, Australia, UK, Norway, you. name it. And they're all because it's. online. Now, they may not be able to get. weapons like we got weapons, but they. were even planning on flying into the. states and doing some hate crime. I. mean, hate crime. Well, I'm sure we'd be. doing hate crimes, but a hate camp. Um. but they dive in and what I saw a lot of. is younger younger guys um outcasts. Yeah. Uh don't have a job, can't get a.

partner, you know, and they just dive down this rabbit hole. of hate. They've probably been bullied. Um and they dive down this rabbit hole. of hate. And it's always, it seems like. it goes back to like gangs and cults and. stuff like that. They're trying. It's. that need to belong and they want to. bring you in and that's how they get. you. Yeah. Um and then power and then. and being inclusive having having people. with your own like mind. But that's not. just on the white supremacy side. Same. thing's happening on the Islamic uh. radical Islamist side. Yeah. That.

they're uh radicalizing you online, inundating you with videos. You could go. into Gab. I don't even know if Gab's. still around, but you could go into Gab. and there would be a group called 14. Words. Well, that's the 14 words coined. by David Lane. It is it is famous in the. white supremacy culture. It says. something to the if I don't have it. memorized anymore. U as I say a lot of. times when I'm speaking, I go, "Hey, uh. just so you guys know, I appreciate the. questions, but since I retired, I made a. conscious decision not to hang out with. white supremacists anymore.".

Probably a good decision. I'm just. saying. I mean, I appreciate you asking. me, but were they the wackiest people. that you were around? It's going to be close. It's well, obviously the pedophiles are the most. Well, yeah, but it's going to be close. But. the I don't want to say I'm not easily. shocked. It's just that uh I mean, you. see so much stuff. It's it's like again, it's that proverbial uh uh coroner who. shows up eating a sandwich with brains. are everywhere because they've seen.

them. They got to eat, you know, they're. just used to it. Um. so there's there's definitely been some. wacky things. I mean, on the case agent. side, that stuff on the border was. pretty wacky, but undercoverwise, um, these guys, I mean, they were I. don't know about calling them wacky, but. just they were planting it. I mean, we. what we did is we uncovered violent we. we uncovered several murder plots. They. had found a couple that they believe. were an ant uh Antifa couple a couple of. counties over in in Georgia. And we went.

and cased the place. The idea was it. started uh it took it it took a while to. come to fruition because it changed a. couple of times but essentially what was. agreed upon is that we were all going to. be the Georgia cell. When I say sale. it's ce l which by the way it's probably. a good time to say the base. uh in Arabic is al-qaeda. Oh wow. So. al-Qaeda wanted to have three to five. man sales ce l I know I got a redneck.

accent. um sales all over the world. waiting on that D-Day call. Well, the. base, which stands for al-Qaeda, wanted. three to five man sales all over the. world waiting for the bugaloo. Wow. You. got. kids, 21 year old has no car, has no. job, but has an arsenal in his closet. He's wearing plate carriers or the same. plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. It's not cheap stuff. and however.

they're getting their money either from. parents or whatever they're doing, they. are building their kit for what they. refer to as the day, the set off of the. race war. So, we uncovered those murder. plots. Um, I remember Helter Skelter, we. got to postpone it because once we. figured out they were trying to kill. people, man, we got to slow this thing. down and make sure we've got control of. it. Much like a murder for hire. If. you're hiring me to kill somebody, I. want to make sure that I got the. contract so you're not out trying to. find somebody else to kill this person, right? So, uh, we were riding out there and,

uh, Helter had not seen the house yet. And, and Helter, I'll tell you the plan. in a second. Helter, we're riding out. there and Helter goes, "Hey, uh, uh, if. you don't mind, man, I I'd really like. to pop my cherry on this one." Well, you. and I here pop my cherry. It probably. means something different. Because I was. like, "What the what are you talking. about?" And then uh Luke TMBB told me, he goes, "I think he actually wants to. participate in the killing." And he. said, "Man, I've been waiting for this.

for two years." He goes, "I actually. want to be I want to put one of the. bullets in their head." And I said, "Well, it's a 22, 25, whatever with the. silencer on it. It may take more than. one. Shouldn't be a big deal." But the. idea was, and this is how much this is. how much research was. done. We're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave everything. electronic there. We're going to leave. from there. We're going to have a a car. that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. We're going to go to a pay by. the hour hotel, motel. We're going to go. there. We're going to scrub and scrub. and wash and wash to get any flakes of.

skin that may be loose to come off. Uh. as detailed as Vaseline on your. eyebrows, facial hair so you don't drop. any kind of DNA. um tape up kind of like. WMD, we're going to tape our jacket to. our gloves, our pants to our boots so. nothing can leak out. Um he had Luke had. even done so much research he had read. that a lot of people who who kill. somebody for the first time lose control. of their Bibles. So he was suggesting we. all wear depens while we go commit the.

murder. I didn't tell him I'd ever. killed anybody, but I looked at him and. said, "I think I'm okay. I don't need to. wear depens." Um so that was the thing. And then we were going to go into the. house, uh, breach our way in, murder. whoever's there, uh, because it was. like, are there any kids there? Helter. was like, I don't have a problem killing. a commie kid. Now, Helter kind of looked. like a normal guy. Had a computer IT. job. He said that was a great cover for. him cuz cuz everybody thinks he's just a. normal person in.

society. Um, this is a guy who also told. me, he said, uh, again, they want to. accelerate the downfall. This guy told. me, he said, "Uh, I voted for Hillary. Clinton." And I was like, "I'm in here. with neo-Nazis." That threw me off. guard. I'm like, "Why? Why would you do. that?" And he goes, "Think about it, bro." He. said, "We want to accelerate the. collapse of society." He goes, "If she. gets in, they usually try to defund the. police. They make our military weaker. There's going to be riots. There's going. to be all this stuff, and there's just.

going to be chaos. It'll help speed up. the downfall of society." Wow. That's. how that's what they're thinking is. Um, so we got that murder plot going on and. then you have the Canadian guy and his. cell up in uh actually it was it would. have been can't go back which. is Brian Limley. um they had a sale up. in the Maryland area and I went up and I. I I trained with them and they at that. point in time, so it would have been.

coming up to January of 2020, there was. going to be a huge Second Amendment. rally in Virginia because the governor. at the time was pretty liberal, did not. like guns, and was going to be making a. lot of uh was trying to crack down on. guns, second amendment. So the idea of. those base members was what if that's. the set off of the bugaloo? What if. while all those people are there, you've. got 3enters, which is not illegal. You. got militia, which is not illegal, but. you've got people wanting to do. nefarious things most likely. You got.

cops. What if we just pop a couple of. rounds? Nobody know who's shooting at. who and everybody and maybe that's the. kickoff of of the booaloo. Again, there's not a lot of forethought and. afterthought with these guys. It's like, what do you what about the national I. mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine? What about freaking cops? You. know, we'll deal with that. What about. girlfriends? I ask them. I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about. procreation all the time. I don't see. any women. I got a woman. She's not for. sure. And they're like, oh, we'll just. rape them. And I go, I'm sorry. Sorry,

what? He goes, yeah, we're just going to. rape the women when D-Day happens and. it's the bug. Yeah, we're just going to. take the women and rape them. I kind of. giggled and I said, you guys don't have. a lot of experience with women, do you? And they're like, "Why?" And I go, "Well, that stuff might work for a. little while, but sooner or later you're. going to have to go to sleep. You might. wake up missing some parts you went to. bed with." I'm like, "What are you. talking about?" But we uncovered all. that and we got uh enough evidence. against them that everybody was happy. And. uh the week of the takedown uh I'm.

sorry. Yeah, it would have been close to. the week of the takedown. I had to. postpone it. Uh I'd had a lumbar fusion. in 2002. What I didn't know, I thought. it was just my disc, a bulging disc or. something. What I didn't know is that. fusion had broken free. And for about 15. years, I just had nothing. I had no. disc. The cadaavver bone dissipated. So. my back was spasming really, really bad. Like I couldn't get out of the floor. So. uh I took some predinazone, got off the. floor with electric stem. Uh I just had.

we had to postpone it for a week. So. then I went and on a Friday I flew into. Baltimore. uh met the case team, drove up Saturday. to Delaware, trained all day with those. guys. Um helped get more information. that everybody wanted. Uh came back late. to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up. to try to close the deal with uh the. Georgia crew. And I think I got home. Monday for a couple of hours. I went.

back. Now I'm meeting with the SWAT. teams because we're planning on the take. down. And by. Wednesday, I picked up Luke who lived on. the 100acre farm and we did a ruse where. the car uh like my car was messed up. I'm like, "Did you hear that?" Actually, more divine intervention. I was going to. fake that something was wrong with my. car and my truck. We're driving and all. of a sudden something goes bam like that. and I go, "I didn't run over anything.". I go, "Did you hear that?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "I swear if that damn. brake caliper froze again," I said, "Let. me pull over." Well, I I pulled over to.

the spot SWAT team wanted me to and then. we did a ruse. I was I was around the. back of the truck looking and another. truck pulls up. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, man. I can't believe you're here." And. then I jump in that truck and then the. SWAT team and the Bearecats rolling over. the hill and they took him without. incident. Uh Helter Skelter and. Pestilence got picked up without. incident. We kept all that quiet on. Wednesday because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington field office. and Baltimore field office were going to. be hitting that crew. So, we wanted to. keep it quiet. So, now Thursday, they.

get arrested. Now, stuff's starting to. come out. I'm still in the chat group. and Friday um I'm watching it and. they're like pale horse are you there? And they're like wait a minute now the. affidavit are starting to come out. It. says that it says that there's a federal. undercover agent that infiltrated the. base and they're like who's a damn fed. in here? And I'm just being quiet and uh. somewhere around 5:15 the leader of the. base he went by the monikers Norman. Spears and Roman Wolf. His real name is. Ronaldo Nazaro. So you can let this sink. in. Here's an American citizen born in.

America, went to Villanova, was in the. army, to my understanding, army intel, and he was a contracted at some point. for some job in the Department of. Justice. Uh, now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia, and I guess he. supposedly teaches English. They tried. to say the base didn't have a leader. He's definitely the leader. Wow. Um, and. uh has a Russian family. So, you can do. your own speculation there. I'm not.

working that case anymore. Uh, how. [ __ ] crazy, right? Where was his red. pill moment? Cuz clearly, if you look at. his history, he was kind of on the. liberal side. Something happened. somewhere and then he starts spewing. crazy stuff and then the base gets. infiltrated by like journalists from. Vice. Well, then they tighten. Every. time the base got infiltrated, they. tighten their OBSC more and more. Every. propaganda video we did, the rule was it. has to be better than the last one. because we're trying to get everybody. And so I'm watching all this roll out.

There's no way a Fed's in here this that. and the other blah blah blah. And then I. I see Roman finally respond around like. 5ish on Friday and he's like I'm not. sure we could have found him cuz he was. good. Uh he attended every meeting, which I didn't. He said he attended. every meeting, which maybe that should. have been a red flag, but I didn't. attend every training or meeting. Um and. I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's. me. And then he said something else and. then that was it. It says, "Boom, you've. been removed by Roman Wolf." So, I. screenshotted that and I sent it to all.

the case teams all over the United. States and the headquarters, FBI, and I. said, "And I'm out." Wow. Yeah. So, they. went down. That was uh that was a wild. case. And if you want to get into like. the effects on family and stuff at that. point, I mean, we're talking 2020. I. started in 96 at a state and local. level. But my wife, we were dating when. I was a narc, so she was kind of used. to, hey, I went out and picked up some. hookers and got some cocaine stuff, but. um clearly there were some very rough.

times uh especially during that. three-year period around the outlaws. But it's not always easy. But what she. says, cuz people always ask and and the. and the spouses do not get enough credit. at all. She's not law enforcement. She's. not desensitized to my world. Um, she used to freak out and be nervous. when I'd go in undercovers. And what she. would do is to help her cope, she moved. furniture. I'd come home and open the. door and trip over stuff. I'm like, what. in the how did the couch get who moved.

that refrigerator? You know, crazy. stuff. But one day, uh, what she said is. she said, look, she just had to give it. up to God. She's like, I can sit here. and worry every day and I'm going to I'm. going to kill myself worrying about it, but I essentially don't have control. Uh. I got to pray that you're good at what. you do and uh and and you know if it's. your time to go, he can take me anytime. he wants. But finishing the base case is. the first time like an idiot. I should. have realized it. But I realized after.

an undercover I have to decompress. I. have to kind of Okay. All right. I get. my mind. All right. That's done. Okay. So does she. Right. and we were sitting. out on the back. porch having a having an adult beverage. I might have been smoking a cigar, but. she said something to the effect of uh. what something I was at the base and and. and she was like, "Yeah, I was covering. you in prayer." And I kind of giggled. and she's like, she looks at me and I'm. like, "What? I mean, we've been doing.

this for a while, right? I mean, you. don't you don't have to like be worried. about me, worried about me. We've been. doing this a minute." She jerked a knot. in my butt, man. And she looked at me. stern and she said, "Let me tell you. something. You are my husband and I'm. your wife and it's my job to cover you. And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you." And I stopped smiling. and I said, "I greatly appreciate that. and I'm sorry if I insulted you, but. thank you." Wow. Craziness. What a life. you've.

had. Well, listen, brother. Thank you. very much for being here. It was great. talking to you. Great hearing these. stories. [ __ ] amazing. So insane and. so interesting. I do have a wacky one. I. forgot another one. Yeah. You want a. wacky one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a. murder for hire basically. Oh, it was uh. I got hired to do me and another task. force officer who went with me on the. undercover essentially. They thought we. were bikers and they ended up hiring us. to do four home invasions and murder two. people. So, you want to talk about wacky. people? This is towards the end of my. career. Her name was Tammy. She gets in.

It's all in the news and the court. records. Uh we go and we meet the. husband. We thought the husband was the. one wanting to get us and we were like. off a dirt road. It's pretty rough, man. Like like walking up to the place. I'm. like, "Hey man, watch out. Sharp object. Sharp object. TB. Merca Pepsi, you know." Um so we meet. him and he's like, "Uh oh, that's really. not my plan. It's my old lady's plan." I. go, "Where's your old lady?" "Well, she's asleep." "Were you going to wake. her up? You want me to? I didn't drive.

all the way out here to talk to you if. you're not planning it. I'm here to make. money. So, we pick her up. She comes. out, gets in the truck, we start driving. around looking at these locations of. where they wanted it because they knew. some people that were dealing dope. They. had the ends on where the guns and the. money were. So, they. thought and they wanted us to do the. home invasions and kill them. Um, but. while we're riding around, she says, "Uh, if you need somebody tortured, I'm. really good in torture. I love. torture." I'm driving. She's in the.

passenger seat claw clawing herself. She's weathered. Jesus. Yeah, she's. weathered tweaking probably. And. uh this is how my mind works. So she's. she's like, "Yeah, I'm in a torture.". She goes, "You know that you can take a. hanger and bend it on the end and shove. it up a man's penis and rip it back out. and then pour salt in the penis." Well, now the guys in the back of the truck. are going, "Oh my gosh." What she didn't. know is two weeks prior to that, I had. my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my. first lumbar fusion. That wasn't the.

problem. They messed up my privates and. they had to dry cath me. So when she's. talking about this hanger going in and. out, I'm kind of feeling I'm like I. think I know what is similar to that. Um so she says that and then she says, "Yeah, you can take a PVC pipe and you. can run it up somebody's anus and then. run barb wire up it and rip it. out." And I we pull up to a red light. and I leaned over and I go, "Why are you. so angry?" And she's like, "Oh no." I I. said, "Are you sure you don't want to.

kill these people?" She's like, "Oh, no. I'm too well known, but if you need. somebody tortured, I can do it." Then on. the next ride or the ride to the next. place, she says that her husband went on. a cocaine bender and she told him never. to do that again. Cocaine meth. something. Uh she said cocaine, but he'd. been gone for three days. She couldn't. find him. He comes home after being high. 3 4 days and he crashes. She's so pissed. at him. She tells us the story that he's. naked. She takes a 2x4, shoves it under. his back legs, takes an industrial. stapler, and staples his scrotum to the. board.

He didn't wake up. That's how that's how. down he was or his crash was. But when. he did, he finds himself hooked to a. board and he's screaming for help and. she wouldn't help him. He had to call a. friend to do it. So if you think the. story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with her husband. He's. like, "Oh yeah, yeah, she did it. I. ain't never had no woman do nothing like. that to me before." And I'm. like, so my buddy in the back, he goes, "Uh, you really don't like men, do you?". And she's like, "I've been unlucky in.

love." But in my head, Joe, that's when. I'm looking over and I go, "These are my. people. This is my skill set. This is. what I get. I don't get Wow. I don't get. Wall Street. Jesus Christ." So yeah, there it's all. kinds of stuff like that, man. God damn, that's a crazy life, brother. Yeah. So now now it's book. Uh I still. teach Alert. Tell everybody the book. Uh. the book is Codeename Pailhorse. Uh and. it's how I went undercover to expose. America's Nazis. Uh but it's not just.

white supremacy. It's got the outlaws. It's got personal stuff, the life. There's murder for hire cases all in. there. The pedophile stories in there. Um public corruption cases where I mean. some of the targets like I got put in a. corner. I I underestimated. I'm dealing. with a guy who's toothless and a. mountain backwoods guy and and he he. beat me at chess that night and I ended. up with a bag of cocaine open shoved in. my face. He's got a saw off shotgun, a.

red bone hounds growling in my crotch. and he's like, "If I find out you're the. law, you're a dead man. Do it if you're. not a cop." I had to figure out a way to. get out of that. You know, God, so. there's stuff like that all in there. I. bonded with that guy, too. I mean, you. know, that's part of your skill set. And. when he and when they sent when somebody. sent me his obituary, I I felt I felt. sad. Wow. This is my last line from him and I. think you'll like it. These are some of. the people you deal with. He says, "Now. Scott, I'm going to speed it up.". Because he was on pills a lot and he. drank all day and did cocaine all day.

So, it was a constant battle of being. pickled. But he's like, I I think he. died five years before I met him. I I'm. pretty sure it's the dope keeping him. alive. I think he died. He just doesn't. know it yet. But he would be like, "Now, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine. anymore." And I go, "I know, man." He. goes, "I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore." I said, "I. know." And he pour cocaine in his hand. He goes, "But this right here, that's. just a. bump." And I'm looking.

going, "What? You just did cocaine." And he. said, "You know, I don't sell cocaine. anymore either." And I'd say, "I know, man." He goes, "I used to sell. truckloads of it." I said, "I know. I. know you don't do it now, but if you. need them five ounces, I can get them. for you for this much money, you know? I'm like, I don't That's the kind of. stuff, man. You got to find humor in. that. But yeah, may he rest in peace. May he rest in peace. Well, thank you, Scott. Thank you for everything. That. was a lot of fun. I really appreciate. it. I appreciate you, man. And good luck. on the book. I guarantee it's going to. sell like crazy. One more time, Jamie.

Throw that up there so everybody can. take a look at it. There it is. Code. name Pale Horse. It's available now. Did. you do audio book? Uh, yes. I'm sorry. Thank you for saying that. It's my. voice. Thank you. Yeah, it's my voice. That was actually that was something I. was told I needed to say. The So, yeah, I've no offense to the other peers of. mine that have done books or just mentor. or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear there I. was in the basement. I'm like, what in. the hell? It that has to be your voice.

I read the book and then we'll see what. happens as far as TV and stuff like. that. Someone's going to want to do. something for sure. I did uh I've been. on I've again the tactical stuff. I've. been in armor on on uh on movie sets in. Tennessee and uh I actually did a cameo. I got one I in the movie world I have. one kill under my belt. All right. But. that's it, man. I'm just uh trying to. pay it forward. Still trying to learn. Still trying to do good things. Best of. luck with this. I know something good is.

going to come out of this cuz it's the. story is incredible. Thank you very. much. Thank you. Thanks, brother. Thanks. for being here. All right. Bye, everybody. [Music].