Joe Rogan Experience #2292 - Josh Waitzkin

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY. NIGHT. All day. Whenever someone is like an interesting. person and then I find out they do. jiu-jitsu, too, I can talk to that guy for sure. Yeah. You know? Jiu-jitsu. like I get excited when interesting. people do jiu-jitsu because I think. the outsider to lot of people that are,

you know, they they haven't been exposed to what. it's like to train and what it's like to. be around high-level jiu-jitsu people, they don't. they don't know that vibe. They don't. know what it's like. They don't know the. the beauty of jiu-jitsu. I feel like. beau-. Jiu-jitsu's beautiful for people who. practice it. You know, like you see like. Marcelo's a great example, your your. coach. You know, Marcelo is probably one of the. most beautiful guys to watch because he.

just takes advantage of these scrambles. in this like really beautiful way, like. fast and and slippery and when the. opponents react, he reacts in the other. way. It's all just technique and flow. It's like, ah. Like the first time I. ever saw him, I saw him live in 2003 in. Abu Dhabi. And that's when he fought Shaolin. That. was the first time I'd ever seen him in. the flesh. He choked him out in like eight sec- 10. seconds. crazy scramble, but no one even knew. him. No one knew of him other than, you.

know, he was obviously a I think he was. a brown belt at the time. I don't even. think he was a black belt. I think Marcelo might have been a brown. belt. It's it's interesting. I didn't. In 2003. Well, so find that out. Was Marcelo a. brown belt when he won Abu Dhabi in. 2003? He may have Eddie Bravo was a. brown belt when he. He told me recently that right before. that fight his like his grips had locked. up. So he came went into that fight, it. looks incredible. Just that arm drag, take the back, choked him out in seconds. Yeah, his. like grips from the fight before were.

like. Oh, wow. Yeah, when when Eddie. beat Hoyler, he was a brown belt. Yep. Wow. Yeah, my John Jacques took his black. belt off of his own waist and put it on. Eddie. Amazing. Amazing. Dude. That's epic. So it's funny, my. background we have a lot of overlap in. our early jiu-jitsu education. Because. my first teacher was Jean Machado. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I spent years training with John in. LA. Um. long before I and then I'm yeah, it.

And then when did when when did you move. to New York? So I moved to New York. Um I start I. think I started training with John so I. was doing um Chinese martial arts for a. bunch of years before that competing. everywhere. Then I started training. cross training with John in I think 2001. 2002. And then early 2005. moved back to New York. Started training with Marco Santos. um in his school in New York and I I was. training with Zucao and Allison Brites. Zucao is an amazing old school Gracie. Barra. Mhm. Um like, you know, amazing fighter and um.

and I was also cross training with Lucas. Lepri at the time. And I was I needed I. I was just ready to. and then I met Marcelo and I was and he. he had moved from New York to Florida. and I was traveling to Florida to train. with Marcelo a bunch and I I wanted to. be pushed all in and um. Marcelo and I gotten really close and. then I. I just said to him, "Hey man, you you. know, you want to. you want to come back to New York and. open a school together?". And he really loved New York and um we. gotten very close at that point. He was.

in Florida. He was in New York before he. he loved New York but then he had to. move to Florida. Um he'd been there's just a lot of. jiu-jitsu politics flowing everywhere as. it does. Jiu-jitsu politics are the worst. And. yeah, anyway, long story short, we. opened a school together in. after that and um. and it was amazing. Then I spent so many. years all in. um training with him. Marcelo such a. beautiful beautiful martial artist. Um so in 2002 he's promoted to black. belt. So he was already a black belt. because this is 2003.

Yeah, that sounds right. So he had only been a black belt for a. year. And won Abu Dhabi, which is pretty. crazy. Pretty crazy. Just that. I mean, didn't just beat Child Lin, won the. entire division. And just looked like no one anybody had. ever seen. Just the scrambles and his. ability to arm drag and take the back. and then once he gets to your side, the. ability to transition to the back is. just phenomenal. And he spends his his like his his whole.

Jiu Jitsu life he spent in the scramble, in transition. And that was really a. philosophy of his. Have you seen that. old old school Arte Suave clip? Remember. the old documentary Arte Suave from back. in there around him at as a young. teenager training at Fabio Gurgel's. school in in Sao Paulo. And it was so. interesting cuz even then you could see. him he never held a position. He always. let opponents move. Be fun to pull that. up maybe in at one point and show. Interesting. Like he he. he never is a core principle of his was. to allow the opponent to move and spend.

as much training time as possible in. transition. And while most Jiu Jitsu guys as you. know is they're well coming up their. egos and controlling and holding guys. and. um. And uh this is this him? Is he already a. black belt here? Yeah, this is after he moved to start. training with Fabio in in Sao Paulo. And this is it's such a beautiful thing. cuz if you watch his his style. he's not in this moment actually. Now he's fully controlling.

Now he's fully controlling but. But most of the time he's scrambling. Yeah, he's scrambling. Did he explain why? Well, you're maximizing time spent in. the in between. I mean, I I I think in. the martial arts people are so focused. on position when they're learning. Position, position, position, but the in. between is where the real virtuosity. happens. don't you? Interesting. And so he spent he maximized his time in. the in-between. So in stand-up fighting, that would be. like footwork and angles. It'd be similar to that cuz the most.

important thing about. any kind of combat sport in terms of. striking sports is to be in a better. position to land a shot and be in a. better position to defend. So if you're. fighting southpaw to orthodox, you. always want to make sure that if you're. southpaw, your foot is on the outside of. your opponent's leg. That way your. opponent has to kind of cross over to. try to hit you, but you're in a position. to hit them on the blind side. And the best ever at that is Vasiliy. Lomachenko cuz Lomachenko, when he was. young, his father made him stop boxing.

for 2 years and just study Ukrainian. dance. Really? Mhm. So for 2 years, he just did. Ukrainian dance and his foot Have you. ever seen him box? No. Oh my god. Pull up Lomachenko highlight. Mhm. It's all about movement and position. with this guy. It's all about when you. punch, he's going to make you react this. way and then he's going to go that way, and then he's going to spin sideways and. he'll be behind you. So this is.

Lomachenko. Like the way he moves is so. different. It's almost like. it's almost like his he's got just a. a radar for like where their where their. punches are coming from and knows. exactly where to put his feet at all. times. No matter what they do, he knows. what they're going to do. But when you watch his like footwork, it's the most extraordinary thing. because his ability to give you all. sorts of different reads like. incredible.

I mean, he won a world title, I think it. is fourth pro fight. Unbelievable amateur record. But it's it's just the movement. Like. he's never right in front of you. He's. always off to the side. He's always. moving around. He jumps in and out and. it's it's with perfect precision. Like a. lot of times when guys. do a lot of footwork and movement, there's points in that transition where. they're off balance, where they can't. really throw a punch, or their footwork.

is out of position, or they're leaning. too far over on this side. He's never. off balance. He's never out of position. He's always slide to side, pop pop, slide to side, pop pop, and you never. know where the [ __ ] he is. He's a. magician. It's fascinating to watch him. fight. And very few people have tried to. incorporate that. Like you see some of. his movement. It's just the way he's able to fool the. best fighters in the world and just have.

a level of of movement that they just. don't really understand what to do with. They just they get baffled by it. Cuz everything is coming from different. angles. It's never I'm charging. straight-forward at you trying to. destroy you. Everything is angles and. movement. Virtuosity is so beautiful to watch. Oh, it's incredible in anything. In. anything. When you watch someone who's. just unbelievably extraordinary and.

unique in their whatever their. discipline is, it's always fascinating. to watch. This episode is brought to you. by Intuit TurboTax. We're all just. trying to level up, right? I'm always. trying to push myself, whether it's. training, learning something new, or. just trying to be a better human. You put in work physically, mentally, and over time you evolve. It's 2025. Doing your taxes has evolved, too. Just. like we put in the work to level up, TurboTax has put in the work to make. taxes effortless. Because now taxes.

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expert now at turbotax.com. One way I relate to the transitional. training is through frames. It's like a. It's like a process of building more. frames. We have position, we have. position, and for some people there'll. be no no space in between, but if you. spend your time. playing in the transitional space. between, you build up frames like an. illusionist. I know you like when you. Remember you spoke to Derren Brown back. in the day? Yes. Like you know, great illusionists, magicians, mind control guys, they have. the ability to see in frames that we.

don't have the ability to see and so it. seems like magic, it seems like. illusion. Yeah. When martial artists are called. mystical, right? It's cuz people don't. understand what they're doing for the. most part technically, and they have. frames where others don't have frames. Mhm. So, they have more options, more It's. like having a language and you have an. access to a larger vocabulary. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that that's right. Yeah. that's right. And people well, it's like if you think about you're. engaging with an illusionist who has.

done something, has spent hundreds of. hours in a certain specific routine, and. you're seeing it for the first time. Mhm. They just have immense knowledge where. you have none. They have more frames and. they can play in frames that you don't. have and it seems like something's. coming from from the from the sky. Well, that's where Eddie Bravo had a. pretty significant contribution to. jiu-jitsu because he was so creative in. some of his attacks and some of the. things that he developed, particularly. off his back. Like the rubber guard. variations, they were so systematic and.

so like. if you got good at it, it was surprising. to anybody didn't understand what you. were doing because they didn't know. these positions well. So, if you got. like there's this kid named Jeremiah. Vance who's one of Eddie's best guard. players and there's a highlight reel of. his submissions off of his back, his. rubber guard submissions. And if you don't have a person that you. train with, if you train in a. traditional school and you don't. understand these positions, you don't. know how good someone can be at it.

There's times where you don't think. you're vulnerable where you're. incredibly vulnerable. Like the. difference between a really good guard. player in MMA and a like Paul Craig, for. example. He submitted some of the best. two two world champions off of his back. in the light heavyweight division. Jamal. Hill and the current champion Ankalaev. Ankalaev's only defeat. is to Paul Craig cuz he's just wicked. off of his back. So, everybody feels. comfortable in MMA, there's only a.

couple guys like Oliveira, you got to. really watch your P's and Q's. There's a. few guys that are just wicked off of. their back, but no one's like Paul. Craig. And so, if you're just used to. fighting regular guys off of their back. and you get in guard and you start you. get a little cocky, you extend an arm to. try to land a punch and then all of a. sudden his legs are wrapped around your. [ __ ] neck and you're like, "Oh, Jesus. How did this happen so quick?". Cuz he's just got that technique is just. so tightened up. It just snap. It just. locks it up so fast. It's fascinating to. watch the difference between like a. really good guard player and someone is.

just a regular MMA fighter who knows how. to do a triangle, but really doesn't. have like the elaborate setups. In many ways, that's in a large scale. what what Royce was doing back in the. day. Sure. coming to MMA. No one had any idea what. they were doing. They were grabbing his. gi thinking they had a huge advantage. They Yeah. Yeah. But he they were entering his his. terrain. And then when when when we were. training in the early days, there was so. much close-mindedness about leg locks. Mhm. So, the leg lock game was outside of the. conceptual scheme to so many jiu-jitsu. guys. It was forbidden. It was forbidden. So, they'd get caught. It's like that dogma like you're like.

it's so interesting competitively. finding where someone's dogma is, where. their constructs are, their their false. constructs. Well, there's a good argument for it. with the ghee with uh young guys. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Because. Not shredding each other's ankles all. the time and you're doing heel. knees apart where they're not going to. be able to be repaired. You know, I mean, how many people have. ruined their knees forever from a heel. hook? A large number. I would I would. imagine if there's any technique that's. ever ruined an athlete's career, the. heel hook could probably be number one. Heel hook is why I started training.

jujitsu. Really? Yeah. Because I was doing stand-up stuff. and I was competing everywhere and my I. I was doing Chinese martial arts and my. teacher's son, Max Chen, who was a he. was a sanshou fighter and um on the. Olympic on the US national team, really. good stand-up fighter and he was. studying UFC before I had even looked at. it. And then he was studying I think it. was Frank Shamrock's double heel hook. [ __ ] from way early days. And he was. just like, let's let's continue to the. ground. And I had never ground fought. before and I ended up in the ground and. he just put me in the heel hooks and.

double heel hooks, my knees were. exploding. He had no idea what the [ __ ]. he was doing. Oh, no. Terrible idea. Oh, no. were just screaming and and I would. throw him on the floor and then I'd be. tap I didn't even know what tapping out. was. I I had never grappled before. You didn't even know how to grapple and. he put you in a heel hook? That's so. awful. submission I felt in my life was like. the heel hook 20 times. Somehow my ACL. didn't shred. And um I was like, I have. to [ __ ] train this jujitsu like cuz. Max was kicking my ass and I didn't like. it. So, then that's how it all began. The heel hook. Royce was brilliant in wearing the ghee.

because it made people grab it. Yeah. They thought they had an advantage that. he had something to grab and next thing. you know, he's like clenched around you. and dragged you to the ground. It's an amazing idea, right? Like they. had no idea that they were entering his. game. They thought they were controlling. him. Right. And they didn't understand that. all that friction from the ghee was. going to make it very difficult for you. to get out of anything. And he was so used to people grabbing. him. He spent his life people grabbing. him. That injured his his ribs. the whole world, didn't it? Oh my god. Changed the whole world. Changed what. street fights look like. Changed.

everything. Those first um. those first UFCs were just. wild. Nuts. Wild. Just the bizarre. The first UFC I worked was UFC 12. Yeah. In Dothan, Alabama. Yeah. I had to take a propeller plane. I had. to fly into I think we flew into. Birmingham or somewhere. And then we had. to take a propeller plane to Dothan. I. was like, "What am I doing? This is so ridiculous." But I wanted to. just see it live cuz I'd only seen it on. television. I'd only seen it. I'd never.

seen a a live cage fight before. I'm. like, "This has got to be crazy.". So UFC 12, how long after the first was. that? Well, it's '97, so it was 4 years later. 4 years later. Yeah. Wow. And you've been on that the journey. from the beginning. Yeah. It was epic. Everybody was like, "What are you doing? Don't be associated with this." So many. people were telling me not to be. associated with it. It was It was like I. was doing snuff films or something. You. know, it's like, "Why are you doing. this? You're an actor." Like I was like, "Okay. I don't know what to tell you.".

Yeah. I like it. I want to go watch. I needed to see it. I needed to see it. live. at that point, '97? Yeah, I'd already started doing. jiu-jitsu. I'd started jiu-jitsu in '96. You were training at Hickson's then, right? Started at Hickson's and then I went. from Hickson's to Carlson Gracie's. I. didn't know. I I thought all Gracie's. were the same. Like this Gracie Oh, this. Gracie's closer. They don't They don't all love each. other. And I'd also say Yeah, I didn't. understand. They were fight They were. all tooth and claw at each other back. then. Uh I didn't know that um I I knew uh.

Carlson's from I think the show was. Extreme Fighting, the John Peretti show. So John Peretti, who worked for the UFC, then branched off and had another thing. called Extreme Fighting. And that's. where Conan Silveira came from and um. a bunch of like elite uh. fighters. Mario Sperry fought his first. fights over there. Um so it was it was. like a really good competitive. organization that was like right up. there with the UFC back in the day. And.

so I had Carlson Gracie's name was on. that all the time and they showed some. training footage of them training. So I. found out about that place and that was. right when Vitor Belfort was emerging. So Vitor was 19. So I was training at. the same. He was amazing. Vitor. It was incredible. Wat- just. watching him train, you know, he was a. freak. Like just an athletic freak. At. 19, he was so fast. Yeah. Just so fast. and so and with his hands. And everybody.

knew he was a black belt under Carlson. Gracie. So everybody expected just. jiu-jitsu and this guy comes out with. little MMA gloves on and just starts. tuning people up on the feet. You're. like, "Whoa. A black belt who can do that? Like. where's this coming from? Like this is a. totally new thing.". So that was the first fight that I. attended. Mhm. That was the first fight I worked. Wow. UFC 12. Wow. It was nuts. This theme of um of transitions and. developing frames where other people.

don't have them like it's it's so. interesting how it's manifested in every. art. Like it I remember when I was playing. chess cuz I was a chess player from age. 6 to 23. That was my first. um I first art. And. You weren't just a chess player. You. were a chess player they made a movie. about, dude. Yeah. Like you got to say that. have that much to do with me, man. They. did that for me. for Bobby Fischer is about you, bro. Yeah. You know, which has got to be weird. Many moons ago. That was [ __ ] weird. Was it weird the dramatic representation. of your life versus the real life? Like.

what is that juxtaposition like? Cuz is. it is it bizarre watching. a fake version of you on television and. did or or on a screen rather? And did. you have like a feeling like, am I that. person? I'm not that person. Like, I'm. me. This is not really me, but it's. about me. Yeah. So, the book came out when I was 11. years old. My dad actually wrote the. book. Um he was a writer, and he ended. up just writing about the journey from. me starting to play chess to winning my. first national championship. And when.

the book came out, it felt like I read. it, and it felt true. I was a little. pissed off cuz I didn't want people to. know when I cried. I was an 11-year-old. I didn't want to be vulnerable, right? And but like that felt like and and that. was my first real thrust into the into. like some degree of spotlight. And then and I was the national champion. at that point, and I was each year for. those years. So, like I was at the top. of the chess world, the youth chess. world, and then I had the movie come. out, the book came out. And then when the. movie came out, it was a [ __ ] show. I I. hated the movie when it first came out. Why did you hate it? Because I thought it had nothing to do.

with my life. Mhm. Um years later, I was able to see it as. a work of art separate from my life, and see it that way. And I was able to. see how it was thematically true in many. ways to theme to like themes in my life. Mhm. Um but like my first teacher, Bruce. Pandolfini, who's still a very dear. friend of mine, Ben Kingsley played him. as this mean guy. And Bruce And I've had. terrible coaches in my life. I've had. coaches who were super destructive. But. Bruce wasn't. He was beautiful.

And um and loving and helped me discover. my love for chess. My first coaches were. the hustlers in Washington Square Park. and Bruce Pandolfini together. And the. way that was represented I didn't like. it. They also combined a bunch of. characters in Washington Square Park, the. hustlers, they combined them into one. in a way that, you know, was. thematically true, but didn't feel So, like when you're a kid, you're a. teenager, you see all the different. movie comes out about your life, you see. all the differences. as opposed to the similarities. And it. was um.

Yeah, and I felt really guilty about it. relative to Bruce. That was a big part. of it, cuz I love Bruce. Did you talk to him about it? Oh, yeah. What did he What was his take on it? I mean it. Was he named Bruce in the movie? was named Bruce in the movie and he I. mean he honestly he loved it. I mean he. it put him in the spotlight as like the. the chess teacher in in you know, in the. country in the world. Um. so he rolled with it really well. I was. just sensitive to. all of like all these mean-spirited. things that happened between us in the. film that never happened in life. And. years later like those things did happen.

to me. And actually during those years. when it came out they were happening to. me then. It was interesting cuz I had. some really destructive coaches during. during that time. And I didn't put that on on Bruce. But. also what happened with the movie is. that I loved chess so deeply. It was my. first form of self-expression. Um and up until the film came out it was. just sort of this preconscious innocent. form of. of play of battle of of like it was it. was my it was my jujitsu match. It was. it was I [ __ ] loved it. And and then it the the move the movie.

is what pulled me into. self-consciousness for the first time. I started thinking about instead of. losing myself in thought I started. thinking about how I looked to groupies. to cameras to person. So like I I moved. from self-expression to. self-consciousness. to being locked up. And then. you know, and I didn't ask for I didn't. decide I want to have a movie. This. thing was done. It was ultimately I mean. I'm I'm grateful for it. From my. perspective now the existential crisis. that happened was awesome for me. It. forced me to become more complicated as. a human and integrate a sense of.

consciousness into my relationship to. something. Um. so my perspective on it now is that it. it was a beautiful journey. It made me grapple with a lot of [ __ ] I. didn't become reliant on a flower garden. in order to have a a deep relationship. to an art. Um but at the time. I was very conflicted about it. And then. when I graduated high school I took off. and left the US for. a couple of years lived in Slovenia with. my girlfriend at the time to get away. from the spotlight to get away from the. media get away from all the [ __ ] that. was connected to the movie.

Mhm. that was when I started studying. East Asian philosophy and meditating and. started reading Jack Kerouac and. existentialist literature and. trying to figure myself out, figure the. world out, figure out how I related to. these things in some empty space. What is a tremendous burden to place. upon a young person. to. take their life, which is essentially. anonymous, you know, to the general. public. You know, known in the chess. world, obviously, but. in the general public. Yeah. anonymous, and then all of the sudden a.

movie star. And not a movie star in the sense that. you're on the screen, but it's about. you, which is probably even weirder. So, you have these false expectations or. false. false narratives of how your life played. out and who the people and who the piece. and so, everywhere you run into people, they have a version of you that they've. seen that's not real. And they think they know you very. intimately. Which is weird. But they don't. And same I mean, with. you, where you're so public, right? Everyone probably most people think they. know who you are and what you think.

know me from me talking. a really good. They don't know me Imagine if like Mario. Lopez played me in a movie. Right. There's someone someone less handsome. than Mario Lopez. But and then you would. have this thing where like, "Oh, you're. the guy that that guy played in the. movie." And I'd be like, "Yeah, but. that's not really I don't That's not. really me. I don't really I didn't have. that problem. This is not real. That's. fake.". And also, when you're a teenager, you're. susceptible to all of the the.

temptations, right? Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, suddenly you've got. groupies everywhere and that's awesome. and it's a lot of fun. But it does not. necessarily It's not necessarily. consistent with sitting for 6 hours at a. time in competition playing chess. No. Which is probably destructive, too, right? Quite destructive. Yeah, which is. interesting and you have to integrate. all of that. How old were you when the film came out? 15. Yeah, that is a crazy time to get any. kind of attention cuz you're you're just. getting testosterone for the first time. You're like, what is all this? Right? And your your body's growing and it's.

flowing hard. Yeah, and you're becoming. a man. Now all of a sudden girls like. you. Like, what? What is this about? This is craziness. I already had a very strange life. because and I think it like a. foundational part of my psychology came. from. So I started playing chess when I was 6. years old. When I was by the time I was. 7, I was the top rated player for my age. in the country. My first national championship I got my. ass kicked, which was tremendous. It was. great. Last round I lost the that last. round of my first nationals I lost to. the guy who later became my best friend.

for many many years, David Arnett. And you say tremendous because was that. like a jumping point for improvement for. you? Because I didn't learn that I could win. without getting my ass kicked first. Mhm. I I had to grapple with my demons and um. I relate I the year from then to winning. my nationals my first nationals the next. year was when I really developed a love. for chess and I had to work very hard. and I didn't associate winning the. nationals with talent or um.

a smooth trip or all the [ __ ] that. people can. connect when they have when they're when. they're called the prodigy from the. outside. Mhm. It's not a term I ever related to myself. at all, but like when they're these. labels are put on from the outside and. if you win too fast too too young, you. can just. develop this relationship to this. brittle relationship to success and to. and to training and to everything, right? You don't you don't realize that. getting your ass kicked is a huge part. of. of the journey. That's a problem with very talented. fighters as well. A lot of very talented.

martial artists, they never develop the. discipline to truly become great because. like from the very beginning they had. and. whatever the advantage was, whether it's. a speed advantage, a strength advantage. I mean, genetics play such a large part. in um martial arts success. You know, if you have someone who's an. elite mind, who is incredibly. disciplined, and also has great. genetics, you get a Mike Tyson. Well, that's amazing if you have that.

combination. That's what you're looking. for. That's what you're looking for. But if you don't have that, and Mike. Tyson is competing in your division, you're [ __ ] Like you you can be. really disciplined, but like so genetics. do have a they do play a factor. Circumstances, coaching, there's a lot. of different factors. But if you're a real prodigy, and there. are people out there that are just. extraordinary from the beginning, I find. that if success comes too quickly, you. don't develop the metal to really push. through boundaries and reach new levels.

Because the only way you get there is. through. you have to. I think often times training becomes. it becomes regimented, becomes something. you do, you see incremental growth and. improvement, you get confidence, you're. but then when you compete, if you get. your ass kicked, then you have to kind. of reassess everything. Like, okay, what. was I working at 10 or was I working at. eight? Was I was I studying tape or was. I [ __ ] off and and calling girls? You.

know, was I paying attention to my. training routine and my recovery, or was. I just training and partying? Like, what. was I doing wrong? Like, what led this. person to land those shots? What led. this person to beat me? Yeah. And if you don't have those moments. where you lose, I don't think you ever. really achieve your true potential, because you have to be challenged. And. the best expression of challenge is. total humiliating defeat. Absolutely. And and and so consistently. the the biggest losses, the most. crushing losses are what lead to the. biggest wins later. So sometimes many.

years later, but it it like that. and people often. I remember. I was giving a simultaneous chess. exhibition for a charity when, you know, in my 20s somewhere, and this this guy. introduced his son, and he said his son. hadn't lost a chess game in in 2 years. And he was so proud. And it's just like. I knew it was a [ __ ] train wreck. I mean, the kid like cuz you're the kid. obviously just was only choosing people. to play who he could beat. Wouldn't. compete up in tournaments, would only.

play down, would And he was just And he. was the only kid who didn't want to play. against me in the simul. And he So his. life was protecting this perfect perfect. thing, right? Oh. People who don't lose So in my chess. life, I The interesting thing happened. to my psychology is that. I. I was the top-rated player for my age in. the country from from a young age, but I. always played up. I always played. against adults, except for nationals and. worlds I played up. And so. and all of my my rivals were targeting. me cuz I was the top seed in in youth. events. But their coaches and they're.

were were much stronger players than me. They were adult international masters, grandmasters, and they could see all my. weaknesses. Psychological, technical, everything. And so if I ever made a mistake, the. weakness was exploited until I took it. on. And so I developed from really young. ages relationship to training. which was. if I didn't take on my weakness, I got. my ass kicked and I felt pain. And so. not taking on my weakness became outside. of my conceptual scheme. Mhm. So from age eight.

I just I. And it can be a blind spot like today in. life. Like a criticism of me that some. loved ones would have is that I I'm just. I'm always I love training. I love. pushing my limits as a way of life in. whatever I'm doing. If it was chess, if. it was fighting, now it's it's foiling, surfing on foiling in in the biggest. waves I can find. And like just if I'm. playing at my edge, I feel. it feels beautiful. It feels like where. I want to be. Mhm. But the comfort zone doesn't feel. beautiful. And to me that works really. well. But it's a big part of like my. foundation in that was when being 8.

years old and being targeted, 8 9 10 11. 12 13, my whole life. And I I It wasn't until recently that I. realized that it was actually outside of. my conceptual scheme. not to take on the weakness cuz it was. just connected to pain from such a young. age as a competitor. There's no luck in. chess. There's no [ __ ] luck in chess. If you have like if you if you're. playing chess, if you have an opening. repertoire that's massive and you go. into a game and there's one little place. that there's a weakness and you don't. want your opponent to go, he always. [ __ ] finds it.

You don't know why. You can you never. like make a move and hope he doesn't see. it or I'll play let's set this trap and. it's not the best move but maybe he'll. fall into it. No, that never works at a. high level. So you just you you have to. take your [ __ ] on. So you associate not taking it on with. pain. Yeah, I don't anymore. I did young and. now I don't associate it with anything. I just don't do it. Right. Yeah. Unless I try. That's a better way to handle it. To. recognize there's there's there's a real. process. There's there's the right way.

to do this. It's the only way to do. this. So don't even think about the. other way. Right. But if it's if it's kind of. driving you I for me I think it's. healthier for me to recognize that. pattern in myself and then roll with it. as opposed to just not even see. like that it's. that it's there. that it's there. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, acknowledge. well you have to have acknowledgement of. it cuz you have memories. Like if I'm cooking a turkey, I have to. cook a world-class turkey. I have a friend Jim Detmer who says to. me, Joshua, you have to do is cook a. terrible turkey. Just cook a cook an. average turkey, you know? Don't rush it.

In other words like don't it's it's an. interesting thing when you become. present to the fact that you have this. like youthful. story running through everything you do. and you can choose to live that way. but it's good for it to be a choice as. opposed to just driving you. It's definitely good for it to be a. choice. It's always good for it to be a. choice because sometimes life will. you know, there's a curve that you have. to take and you have to put something. aside for a bit or maybe forever and you. have to be able to transition to. something else. And if you can't do.

that, then you'll be stuck. Yeah. And you see a lot of that with martial. arts people. You know, most of us at a. certain point in time realize that. injuries are not just inevitable, but at. a certain point in time you go maybe I. should stop doing this. Because. training, no matter what you do, training is all about you using your. body as a weapon and someone using their. body as a weapon, whether it's martial. arts like stand-up fighting or whether. it's. jujitsu, it's the same thing. You're.

you're trying to. you're trying to isolate joints, you're. trying to cut off blood, and you're. resisting all these things and all the. weak points get exposed. Shoulders, knees, ankles, back, neck. All those. things get exposed and if you're an a. meathead like I have been in the past, you train through injuries and they get. chronic and then you get to a certain. point where you're like, "What am I. doing?". And if you can't transition to something. else, if you can't find something else.

to do with your time, then you're a. [ __ ] Then you know, then you're. getting your 10th surgery on your back. and you're still trying to train and. everybody's like, "Look at Bob, he's. crazy. He's got all his discs fused, but. he's still training." Like, maybe Bob. shouldn't be training. Like, maybe maybe. Bob's going to break something else now. Like, maybe maybe it's time to move on. to something else. And if you don't have. this ability to constantly take on new. projects and be excited by different. things, you're going to have a shallow. life. Like, life has so many challenges.

and so many fascinating things to dive. into. For you now, it's foiling. For a. while, jujitsu, chess, like anything. like that, you'll find something else. like that. When it comes to college basketball and. March Mania, one thing is for sure, nothing's for sure. Upsets, buzzer-beaters, Cinderellas advancing, top seeds going home early. It's all. going to happen. Bet the unexpected. every upset every day with DraftKings. Sportsbook. With live betting, exclusive.

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see dkn.co/audio. You'll find. Jiu-jitsu was the art I had to that I I. I had to move on from not on my own. terms cuz I I um I ruptured my L4 L5. disc. There it is. Trained trained on it. like a crazy person for like a couple. years and then the doctors looked at. that and they just like if you keep on. doing this you're not going to walk. Not. going to be able to. What's it like now? It's great now. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Um. You think it's a little the foiling. probably makes your core like incredibly. strong. Yeah, I mean I I've done a lot of stuff.

I mean I spent ye-. I never had surgery. They all told me to. but I didn't have surgery and I did tons. of I mean I've been doing. total immersion swimming and foundation. training and every everything I could do. um for the back and. the foiling feels I'm training like I'm. all in on this art and it I I'm doing it. in a way that feels healthy in the back. I train jiu-jitsu now but light. I mean. I can't train all all out like I'd love. love to. When I It was hard It was. heartbreaking to give it up. And and I was so. madly in love and all in with Marcelo.

and. having that like I was I was at that. part of the learning process, which is. where I get good at the learning. process, which is like toward the. higher levels of something. That's where. I'm best at learning. Did you have a small injury that got. worse over time, or did you have a. significant moment where you realized. that you hurt it? I was so stupid. No, it was significant. moment. I was I was on position. sparring. Yeah. Marcelo wasn't at We were at our school. in New York. Um it was a week before my. my eldest son, Jack, was born.

Um so it was a bit over 13 years ago. I. We were Marcelo was was gone. We I was. at the school. Um Paul Schreiner was. running. class that day, I think. And um there. was this 240-lb blue belt visiting. This. is like. Oi. ripped dude. And. Paul had everyone doing position. sparring, half guard position sparring. And this guy was matched up against one. of our guys. I had that hubristic. invincible feeling about me in that. moment. I was just when you're feeling. at your very best in martial flow. And I. was like. And it ended up where we were doing half.

guard position sparring, where I was. holding half guard, and he was. doing this pass, twisting. the spine. And it was so [ __ ] stupid. to do it. I mean, I was just holding half guard in. a. in like. in position sparring, and I. just felt it go. And then like, you know, it was I couldn't. move. It was [ __ ] terrible. Mhm. Um and it was. Did it herniate? Yeah. And all the fluid gone.

Oh, yeah. And um. Yeah, it was brutal, you know. It was And I remember. So, how is the disc now? I couldn't lift I couldn't lift up my. child for the first three, four months. of his life. And then I had this strange. period where I couldn't. I could standing and walking was the. toughest. But then I had this period like if I had. gone to the corner store to get milk. like three, or months later, I'd have to. bike to the corner store and come back. And I don't I can't explain this, but I. I had a period where I couldn't walk, but I could ski. Because of the angle. So, Marcelo and I.

were going to the mountains out around. New York just bombing down. I just was. trying to get my my fix in. Just skiing without turning was my goal. He was snowboarding, I was skiing. You couldn't walk, but you could ski? What are you talking about? You dude, don't ski. [ __ ] ski. Yeah, that would have been. a smart thing to tell me. Yeah, I was a. dumbass for the first 2 years after the. injury. And then I And then I realized I. had to. What does the disc look like now? I haven't looked at it in a long time. Um it. Doesn't trouble you anymore? It does trouble me. I take care of it.

all the time. Um. Yeah. They replace them now. Uh Eddie Bravo got a fake disc in his. lower back, a titanium disc. Mhm. he's able to train again. I know quite a. few guys who've got them. Aljamain. Sterling got one in his neck and then. went on to defend the UFC bantamweight. championship several times. Yeah. They. replace them all together. Mhm. I didn't know that. Yeah, they put ar- artificial discs now. Yeah. You know, your point about I remember I.

was study back in the early 2000s. studying Eddie's game, studying rubber. guard, studying all the twister stuff. Just trying to wrap my head around it. Yeah, he's got some wild stuff. And if. you're not used to it, it's it's really. interesting to watch people that just. have never encountered it before. When I. would go to train in other places, like. I lived in Colorado for a bit and I. trained at Amal Easton's. And uh when. I'd go up there, there's so many. positions that guys just didn't. understand. They didn't know what was. going on. They figured it out after a. while, like oh, if he goes this way, he's going to try to get me in a. twister. Yeah. If he goes this way, he's going to try.

to set this up, but there's certain. things that people do all the time, like. especially like put your hands on the. mat. You do If you put your hands up. Pull up Jeremiah Vance uh. highlights. This is like one of Eddie's best uh. black belts with rubber guard. And the. way he does it is phenomenal. He has. incredible leg dexterity and his. technique is so sharp. And he catches. people in stuff where they're like, "How. am I even stuck here?". Do you find that that flex. No. Yeah, here it is. So, watch watch.

how quick he sets things up. It's like right away you're in you're. fucksville. Like. Like who who does this? Who sets up a a. gogoplata right off the bat and then. triangles it? Look how he sets this up. I mean, this is insane. And just massive. crank on your [ __ ] neck. Yeah. And he switches it to omoplata, rerolls, Mhm. Yep.

Omoplata crucifix finish. Yep. And everything he does involves this. incredible dexterity and flexibility. There's like a whole series of. highlights. That's not even some of his. best stuff, but. he's able to do this to people that just. don't know what he's doing. Like they. don't understand some of these. transitions. Yeah. And this is just like one of the best. expressions of the techniques that. Eddie's developed. So, like Jeremiah's fantastic at that.

Like this this particular technique of. being able to isolate the omoplata and. then secure a choke in the transition. He does this to everybody. Look at how. he This transition right here. Brutal. It's so nasty. Yeah. It's so nasty and you just you don't. know what the [ __ ] you're doing. How am. I getting out of this? I mean, he just hits this over and over. and over on people. And so many times in. people go for an omoplata, people say, "Okay, I Worst case scenario, I might. roll out of this and wind up on my back. in side control." But not with him. Not.

with him. You're like, "This is like. you're really close to checkmate from. the moment the the omoplata set up from. a position where you're defending. So, you're defending correctly from the. omoplata and that winds up setting up. this choke. What was your your what. How do you feel about Ryan Hall's game. in in MMA? Like he cuz he also is he's. entering the MMA game. Oh, he's been in the MMA game for quite. a while. Yeah. Yeah, no, but I mean when he entered the. the game, he came into it with a. repertoire that was so unusual for. Very unusual. Well, he's really, really.

smart, obviously. And when you see his. style, the the problem with his style, in my opinion, is it's so jiu-jitsu. heavy that he's vulnerable when he's. fighting world-class strikers. Like Ilia. Topuria smashed him. Yeah. And it was a horrible, horrible. knockout. And it's cuz Ilia's a legit. Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt, but also. like way more technical on the feet. And. when you're fighting a guy who's just. any one mistake you make in striking, it.

is a concussion. Any one mistake, boom, a big hand's coming, a knee's coming, a. kick's coming. It's like something's. coming if you make mistakes. It's just. like being a blue belt rolling with uh a. high-level black belt. It's the same. thing. It's like you're just way too. vulnerable. So, his jiu-jitsu's off the. charts, but his stand-up is not at the. level of his jiu-jitsu. And that's just. a real problem today. It's very You can. kind of be a specialist if you're a. striker.

A striker like there's a few guys that. can pull it off if they're really strong. and they have good takedown defense. Like Pereira's the best example, right? Two-division world champion kickboxer, comes over, dominates, becomes a. two-division UFC champion as a striker. Because every fight starts standing up. But if you don't know how to strike, every fight starts standing up. So, the. beginning of the fight is always. something you're not good at. And if. you're getting tagged at the very. beginning of the fight, and now you're. in desperation mode. And all this person. has to do, it's an an enormous space.

they're fighting in, the octagon. And. the cage of the octagon actually makes. it easier to get up if someone takes you. down. So, there's a lot of elements that. wouldn't even exist if you had a flat. surface with no walls. So, it's easier. to defend. It's It's easier to move. around cuz it's an enormous surface. So, you're now chasing this person and you. might have already gotten a concussion. You might have already been rocked. So, you're already like a little out of it. and now you're like desperado mode. It's. just a bad place to be. Like you have to. have world-class striking to compete at.

a world-class level in MMA at this. point. Yeah. You have to have You have to have. something at the very least. You have to. be really good defensively. Really good. But, then you're just going to get. picked apart on the feet. Yeah. Your legs are going to get kicked. You're going to You're going to get. brutalized. Yeah, you have to be a really good. striker and Ryan is one of those guys. that's a specialist and, you know, he. tapped a lot. I mean, tapped B.J. Penn. like 10 seconds. He's tapped a lot of. guys. He's When he gets a hold of you, you're in this complex web of.

transitions and techniques that if. you're just a regular MMA fighter who. trains jiu-jitsu three times a week, you're not going to know what he's. doing. Yeah. He's a brilliant guy. He He trained at. our school from in New York, I think, from 2010 to 2012 that range. And it was so interesting watching him. and Marcelo. Um cuz Ryan had a huge amount of. humility relative to Marcelo. Um and he. wanted to to train with him and Marcelo. was so curious about Ryan's game. But, Marcelo never studied anyone's game. His a core principle of Marcelo was if.

you if you if you study my game, you're. going to my game and no one will be. better at my game than me. And so, when he in competition, he would. the guys would be studying tape of. everybody. He would never study anyone's. tape. Never study anyone's fights. But, he'd watch them the fight before they. went against him and he'd pick up on. some kind of elemental read. He has this. incre He's what I call a a low-rep. learner. His ability to learn from a. single repetition is just. unbelievable. Mhm. Um and it was really interesting. watching him and Ryan cuz Ryan and Ryan. just came and visited me um.

my home uh. a month ago And we were talking about. how formative those training experiences. with Marcelo were. And. and it was like the way in one way that. Ryan described it is that he had this. like layers of traps seven steps in. But. Marcelo had this deep understanding. upstream of that. And it was like. watching Marcelo put himself like right. next to the fire, like right next to. Ryan's game, he wanted to learn Ryan the. edges of of Ryan's game but never enter. it. And his ability to play right at the. threshold of all of Ryan's traps which.

he could pull almost everyone else into. in just pure grappling, right? And but not not just his ability to. learn it was like it felt like a cat. putting its paw right up against the. edge of a fire and just like learning. about what heat was and deconstructing. it but then not ever getting into the. heat. You know, and I and you'd watch Ryan. will roll anyone else he just pull them. into the fire. Into the spider web. That's fascinating. Yeah, Marcelo has a really incredibly. deep.

almost simian physical intelligence. And. his ability to learn from a single rep. is unique in my observation. That's amazing. Ryan has had a ton of surgeries, hasn't. he? Oh, yeah. Man, that dude has had such. bad luck. Yeah. What is wrong with him? What's going on? [ __ ] with I mean tons of stuff with his. knee, with his hip, with I think he's. he's starting to come back I think his. shoulder is something now. Oh, [ __ ]. He's still, you know, he's had like nine. I think 23 sur- I think it was 23. I. think he said 23 surgeries. Dude has got. And the the bad one happened with. someone just falling on him in training.

What was that? I don't know. I don't know it was it was. a hip. Oh, god. Yeah, I don't know exactly. I haven't. seen the. What did he get done to his hip? Ask him. I don't not sure. Yeah, he's. had a lot of surgeries. A lot of them. Someone just fell on him. So, was he. training with someone else and someone. else fell on him? was he was training with somebody and he. was taking it easy on them in a. transition trying to not hurt them and. then they just collapsed on him on his. hip in a certain way as he described it. Oi. Yeah, brutal. When you were training, did you do any. weightlifting just to sort of supplement.

it to keep your joints strong and your. Yeah. Yeah. I I did a lot of I tended to do. weightlifting that was consistent with. the movement patterns of the arts that I. was training in. So, now So, I I would. do a lot of biking lower body strength. and then I would do I wasn't didn't have. I think if I did it now, I would do much. more. weightlifting. Um. but when I was rolling usually twice a. week, 6 days a week and um. and I was I would do cardio work in.

addition and then some like some. resistance work, but I I didn't I wasn't. like I I'm doing a lot of work with the. Boston Celtics now and I'm seeing how. they're for the last few years and I see. how they're up really their sports. science team and their physical trainers. are and like I don't think that I was. when I was training Jiu-Jitsu, I was. at the level of for example, the Boston. Celtics in in um. in the resistance training that I was. doing to supplement it. Mhm. And Marcelo didn't do weight training. That was part of it. When I was training. with him, we were like I was just.

He didn't weight train at all? No. How did he get those legs? He just rolls, man. He was biking. He. was he had a bike into the those bikes. without um. without brakes. We were biking all over. New York. He He. Bikes without brakes? Yeah. What do you mean? What are they called? Fixies. Yeah. What is that? Fixed fixed wheel. Yeah, fixed wheel. He He just. What does that mean? Just It's got no no brakes. How do you slow down? You go You go slow. You got to slow You put your hand your. your. Put it on the on the edge of the the. wheel. It's. like yeah, fixed wheel biking. I mean. and he loved fixed wheel around New York.

and I was biking then I switched over. Why would you ever get on a bike with no. brakes? It's a. You control it. You're you're you're braking. Uh I'll. I'll show you videos. Show me. People love it, but man in New York, it's it's quite something. I mean in New. York, when you're going down a hill in. New York City in in traffic, there's. there's some adventures. You're going down a hill. How are you. [ __ ] slowing down? You don't go fast. Oh, he was We were going fast. No, I mean that's the You just got got. your. you got to see a high this isn't going. to be a good video. This is the dumbest thing I've ever. heard of in my life. This is something. only white people would figure out.

Let's have a bike with no brakes. The. dumbest thing was what I did after this. which is that I when I fell in love with. surfing, I was one wheeling all over New. York. Oh, five ways to stop on a fixie. How. about don't get a fixie? Get brakes, you. [ __ ] idiot. This is the dumbest [ __ ]. I've ever seen in my life. Why wouldn't. you have brakes? Why wouldn't you have. an option to control the bike better? Uh so I. the people that ride this I did they'd. argue they control it probably better. Yeah, look at all the white people. All. white people. Ridiculous white people.

that'd be doing backflips with. skateboards. This is a big New York thing though. I've never really. Of course it is. They don't they like. suffering over there. That's why they. all live jammed on top of each other. That's so stupid. There's no good videos. on that. That's a stupid thing. There's a movie I've seen. That's why. Brakes, you [ __ ] freaks. My last two years living in New York I I. had fallen so in love with surfing and I. was I knew Ocean Arts were my next. chapter and I was so heartbroken not to. be able to do it every day. So I got a. one wheel. It was like the first. generation, you know, the one wheel. electronic skateboard with one wheel. Yeah, yeah, we have those.

Just came out, first generation and I. was just like. thousands of miles biking one wheeling. all over New York and then but it was at. the early one if you push past the push. back, it had this push back thing which. would slow you down but you could push. past it and go faster but if you push. past the final push back, it just. bottomed out, wham. And it just went 23. 24 miles it was like whack right there. Over taxi cabs, under taxi cabs, through. taxi cabs. Everything. The one wheel is like when you're a kid. or sorry, the the fixie. It's like you. just skid. Oh, oh, so there is brakes. Yeah, you.

slam on them like a kid. Yeah, I guess that's a better way to. describe it. I wasn't thinking about. that way. Okay, so you can brake. also reverse which you can't do on most. bikes. You can ride backwards. Oh. If you needed to. It's really beautiful. I mean I I I I I. this wasn't this I never did it but it's. really beautiful to watch when it's done. well. Okay, well that makes me feel better. that you can just skid. Yeah, you can skid. tire but. you can stop. There's lots of things that can go wrong. but that's one of the most beautiful. things. There are lots of things that. can go wrong. Foiling there's a lot of. [ __ ] things that can go wrong here.

35 40 miles an hour on top of a. guillotine, big waves. I mean. Dude, I learned how to foil 2 years ago. and it took me like 3 hours to get on. that [ __ ] thing for the first time. cuz I've never surfed. an eFoil or oh an eFoil, yeah. It took me forever. Just kept falling. down, getting back up, falling down. Meanwhile, my kids, my youngest at the. time she was 12, humiliated me. She just. hopped on it instantly was scooting. around and look she knew how to do it. immediately. But she she wakeboards, she.

she does a lot of that [ __ ] She's. really athletic. But she was just. humiliating me and I was just like I'm. going to figure this out. For hours I. kept falling down, getting back up, falling down and eventually I got it. And then once I got it it was like easy. Yeah. Once I got it I was like, oh I see. eFoiling is the best It's like it's the. best way to learn how to foil because. you they weigh 90 lb the eFoils do. Like. a high performance big wave high. performance foil will the whole setup. will weigh 4 or 5 lb. Really? Yeah, I. mean an eFoil you have a battery, it's.

heavy and you've got electricity to. learn how to foil so you learn foil. dynamics. Foiling when you're high. performance foiling in in big surf. you're you're on a like a if you're. towing in you're on a 3 and 1/2 ft. board. Um no no battery is it it's not. powered. It's just you're just riding. hydrodynamics. are you getting towed into these waves? towed You can paddle in or but if you're. towing in to bigger waves you're on a. small board. Um. you're getting towed in behind a jet ski. whipped in and then you're just riding.

It's epic. It's frictionless. So. beautiful. Wow. And what's the benefit of that above. surfing? Is that you're above the water? the water. You're not feel like the. ultimate if you think about the. the the. surf day possible. Um the frictionless feeling. It's It's. more frictionless than that cuz you're. above the water. You're. Yeah, I get that on the efoil. When you. get cooking on the efoil, you're above. the water and it's wild. It just I. always feel like I'm going to fall. I'm. going to fall. I'm going to fall. Yeah. Yeah. As soon as I get above the water, like, "Okay, we're going to do fast. You're. going to wipe out.". The foil is interesting cuz it it's it's.

like the ultimate receptivity. Because. the foil picks up on underwater wave. circulation. So, it's picking up on lift. when you're going very fast. And also. when you're in a wave, the waves have. have upward circulation at the at the. face of the wave and you get to the top. of the wave, it it accelerates. And so, your your foil is riding. the underwater currents and you're. receiving it. So, amplified. So, like. tiny little movements have big effects. on the thing. So, like the surf movement. would be very big and the the foil. movement is very subtle of the body.

mechanic. And then you learn to really. crank into it. Um and it's limitless. You can do open water foiling crossing. oceans on long high aspect wings riding. open ocean swells and you can. Wow. You can push like high performance. foiling is just like high performance. surfing. That the lines you can draw. The turns are epic. The Gs are crazy. So, you're just all in on this, huh? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm all in on this. stuff. Is this an everyday thing for you? Yes. Everyday. Same same as jiu-jitsu. Six. days a week, twice a day if possible. Really? Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Do you have goals? Virtuosity. Mhm. Yeah, I competed my whole life and and. so now I live. like I train the way I would if I was in. a world championship training camp. Um. That's hilarious. With foiling, crazy. Who else is doing that? Just a couple lunatics. How many other people are foiling like. they're training for a world. championship activity? Yeah. It's a It's a But the interesting. thing is like I. Yeah. I love it. It It's um But all. these arts to me are connected. That's.

the strange thing about my art. Like. chess, Chinese martial arts, jiu-jitsu, surfing, foiling. To me. the fascinating thing when you get. toward the pinnacle of an art is that. you start to experience, at least in my. from my perspective, that the apexes of these arts are much. closer to one another than lower down in. the mountain of the same art. Mhm. So, people who are virtuosos in various. fields are often speaking a much more. similar language than people who are at. lower levels of the same art than their.

training. Yeah. And. like when I think about. about chess, I relate it to chess through through. core principles, and those principles manifest in the. martial arts. I remember that I had this. this um. when I wrote my first book, The Art of. or my my second book, The Art of. Learning, it was about my experience of crossing. over my level from chess into the into. the Chinese martial arts. Um and. I had this. really interesting experience where I. was giving a simultaneous chess.

exhibition playing 40 games at once in a. charity for Duchenne muscular dystrophy. But I was at that point that point I'd. been training martial arts for 2 years, and I had not been I'd kind of moved to. I was moved in the transition away from. chess during that period. And I had this. realization that I was winning these. chess games playing 40 games at once, but I was not playing chess. I was. feeling flow, riding space left behind. I was riding the the energetic wave of. the game like I would if we were flowing. on the mats, but I was making chess. moves. And I realized that these arts. had become.

fundamentally connected. And then. that became like an area of of interest. and of exploration, and I started making. what I was doing unconsciously more and. more conscious. And now when I relate to. that chess, I don't move chess pieces. anymore, but chess is manifest in. everything that I do. As is jujitsu. Um. and as is like the in the ocean arts, I'm manifesting these other arts, the. core principles I've experienced through. them. Yeah. all the time. And that's one of the. things that I've um. I've been puzzled by for many years is.

why chess is so [ __ ] hard. Like chess has no luck. The best chess. players in the world are so brilliant at. what they do. I listened to your episode with um. Magnus Carlsen. Enjoyed that. He was. great. Yeah, that was cool. Like there's. someone like Magnus, he's so [ __ ]. good at what he does. Such a virtuoso. Um but if you look at like the top 100. or top 1,000 chess players, they're. they're tremendously strong. But when they try to translate their. ability to other fields, they often can't. And it's surprising.

Mhm. And I tried to figure out why for a lot. of years because you think like if. you're able to just be so excellent at. something that's super hard, you could. take on something that's relatively. easier and become very good at it. And I. think that the reason that people often. can't cross level over from one thing to. the other is that they learn it in a. localized language. So you can learn chess in a way which is. very specific to chess. Like principles that are just chess. principles. Or you can. learn chess in a language which. connects to all of life. And that won't slow down. It might.

accelerate your chess learning. Mhm. But you can but it but like and if. children are taught games like chess or. gymnastics or musical whatever else with. the so they're learning about that art. very deeply. They're touching quality. They're pushing their limits. They're. living a life of training as I know you. value very much. But they're doing so in. a language which connects to the rest of. life. Then. they're they're studying thematic. connect interconnectedness. while they're studying. chess or jujitsu or anything else. And then they're just learning the. language of excellence.

Yeah. And and I I it's interesting because if. you watch chess player chess teachers. teaching students, many of them don't do. this. They teach it within like the. confines of the chessboard like a. prison. And if you learn chess that way, then. it's like you're living on an island and. the ocean around you is. like prison walls. Right? But if you study chess in a way. that. you're you're you're learning how each. chess principle connects to every other. art you could ever study, then just this.

web of interconnectedness is forming in. your mind and then when you take on. something else, you're able to cross the. level over. really really naturally. And that And in. many ways, that's my. that's a a big part of my life's work is. the study of that interconnectedness. Do you think that. a huge Well, it had to be a huge factor. for you that you were sort of forced to. reevaluate. the way you interface with life when you. became famous because of the film at 15? So, childhood chess player, become very well.

recognized, and then all of a sudden. this movie, and now you have to kind of. like grapple with things. And as you. said, these challenges make you more. complex person. And then your ability to sort of push. chess aside and try other things, do you think that's because of that it. has to be a factor. in your this desire to explore other. things? Because you're kind of thrust into this. thing where your your thing is now. changed. Your thing is now not just.

flowing and learning and getting better. and and and doing battle with chess. Now. it's image and groupies and this bizarre. thing that you're living up to, and you. don't like it, and you want to escape. it, and so you have to reevaluate. And. so this forced reevaluation from a young. age at 15 years old at this key. developmental period as a young man. sort of opens you up to the. possibilities of all sorts of different. ways of living life and all sorts of. different things to do with life. Yeah, a language I use for this is the.

the passage from the preconscious to the. postconscious competitor or artist. And. like when I up until 15, I I would. relate to myself as the preconscious. competitor. I loved chess, it was. free-flowing, I loved the battle, I. loved the competition. I loved the. ass-kicking and the kicking ass. I I. just loved the [ __ ] battle of the. thing. And then. and then then I had I I fell in love for. the first time when I was 15. The movie. came out um after that. And um I started studying existentialist. literature. I started reflecting on the.

absurdity of it all. I started to become. present to the fact that these were just. 64 squares and 32 pieces. Like I was. spending my life studying this [ __ ]. box, wood wooden box. Like the. construct, the absurdity of being stuck. in that construct became clear to me. And then I was. becoming more and more self-conscious. about how what I was doing was perceived. by others. And I got lost in all of that. Um. and in many ways like the journey most. people most people like some people. don't run into that for a long time. Like there are some chess players that. just become insanely strong without ever.

reflecting on the absurdity of the fact. that they're just playing chess. And. that's a great liberation. Like that the. moment you become aware of the fact that. you're mortal, that you can get your ass. kicked, that your arm can break, that. you can die, that what you're doing is. absurd. Like you get locked up by that. knowledge. Right. Like and there's so many different forms. that can take. Or the moment you like. for example the Boston Celtics like they. like you're hungering to win a world. championship and then you win the NBA. finals. Suddenly everything changes. Your relationship, your motivation. changes. All the reasons you're doing it. are no longer valid in some ways because. now you've accomplished the thing you.

always dreamed of and you have to. discover. It's true in any form of. competition or art in my experience is. that there comes a moment where. someone's consciousness becomes more. complicated and they can't just return. to the innocence they had before. Cuz. now they can't do that. You can't put it. back in the box. It's out. So then you. have to work through. that journey which is a lot of what I. did from like my late teenage years. leaving studying philosophy and then. moving into. other fields and started relating to art. in a way that was integrating that.

self-awareness, integrating that sense. of mortality. Um. It's like when I I I. a very powerful example of this was I I. I die I drown in a pool. um. I guess like 9. 10 years ago. I was um doing hypoxic. breath work, Wim Hof training. Jesus Christ. And uh. never do Wim Hof training, everybody, please, in a pool. because you're you're flushing the CO2. from your body, but CO2 is what gives.

you the urge to breathe. And so, without. carbon dioxide in your being and you're. you don't feel the urge to breathe. And. so, I and I've been a lifetime free. diver spearfishing since from when I was. 5, 6 years old, but I was never doing. hypoxic breath work before free diving. So, if you're diving 80, 90, 100 ft, you're you're not flushing the CO2 from. your body before you do so, so you have. you still have that that sense for when. you need to breathe, but I was in a NYU. pool. I was at just swimming 50 m 50 m. back and forth underwater and then doing. this. this hypoxic worth breath work in. between. And then I.

my last recollection is being stretched. out in bliss that those tingles through. your body you get from Have you done Wim. Hof training? Yeah, those you know those. tingles. Had those [ __ ] tingles. And. then. I woke up 30 minutes later. What. happened was that I blacked out. I was. in the bottom of the pool for over 4. minutes after blacking out from shallow. water blackout. Oh my gosh. Which should it should be 45 seconds to. a minute and you should be brain dead or. dead cuz you're post shallow water. blackout. I know the time it was because. there was an old man at the pool who saw. me in the bottom of the pool. and swam.

one lap and his his laps were a little. bit over a minute. Swam a second lap. After his third lap, he said, "Let me. I'll check on him if he's still down.". He thought I was holding my breath, but. I was only holding my breath while. swimming. So, if I was still, I was. [ __ ] out. His fourth lap after his. fourth lap, he picked pulled me up. I. was blue. Oh my god. body was blue. Um my head was red. My body saved me. My. training saved me and almost and killed. me. Sent all the blood to my brain. My eyes. were blown out red like bloodshot for 3. weeks that followed. And I um.

I remember waking up and having this. everyone looking everyone around me and. like, "What the [ __ ] is everyone What's. going on, guys?" Like, "What's the. drama?" I was I was I was the [ __ ]. drama. Wow. Um and I spent that night in the. hospital going through old chest. variations trying to like test my brain. Is my brain brain ruined? Like do I. remember things? Somehow my brain. maybe it's [ __ ] up, but it seems like. it'd be working pretty well. And um. Wow. I can't and and and that was also a big. part of me realizing I had to spend my. life in the in the in the ocean cuz like. I could feel the potential for some PTSD.

response. Like I could I could actually feel the. potential trauma response like a cloud. that was washing. over me. Like I could see the cloud. coming and I would just [ __ ] decided. not to let it in. And I got back in the water the next. day. Um and I I just [ __ ] and I think. that's a big part of my relationship. with the ocean is having died in water. Um. I need to spend my life in the water. Did you have any sort of out-of-body. experience or anything while you're. gone? What's really [ __ ] up about it is no.

That's what's really wild. It went just black. That's what's crazy. is that I I went my last memory is of. just. tingles and bliss and then waking up. And so if I hadn't been pulled out. there would have been no flash. No. there no seeing my life pass before my. eyes, no. tunnel on the other side, nothing. You. know what's really [ __ ] wild though. is that many years later. I was doing this um.

This guy Brandon Powell is a brilliant. guy who's um. a train Wim a top Wim Hof trainer and a. trainer of trainers of his guys and I. was doing some retreats with teams of. mine and we're doing some Wim Hof work. and. he had this methodology of kind of. accelerated. hypoxic work where that he said, I'm not. sure if it's true, but he said release. DMT in your body and inhibited the DMT. inhibitors in your body. And I did these journeys with him twice. through pure breath work, no. psychedelics.

And. I experienced these two times months. apart, I experienced. one time I experienced the center of my. consciousness as where I. as as my busted disc. And I experienced the world through like. the electrical connections emerging from. my. from my L4 L5. It's very strange. And. the other one was the only memory I have. of that. And I'm not sure if this is accurate or. some kind of. illusion. But um I saw the drowning. experience from above, the whole thing.

I watched the 20 minutes that I was on. the that I was in the bottom of the pool. and then up and 25 minutes and then on. the on the pool deck. And I saw the. whole thing from above. But that was like years after it. happened. That. Mhm. So I can't explain that. Were were all the people there? The same. people? I don't know. I. My memory of it consciously from what. actually happened is so fuzzy, right? Cuz I just died and came back. But but. and then I saw I saw it from. above. I think I was mostly focused on.

the memory of of myself. And. Mhm. Yeah, so I I I relate to myself now like. I've I've died. And I'm living and I had. I I live with the sense of um gratitude. and. and uh commitment. That's a big part of. why we moved to the jungle with my. family. It's like. I emerged from that with a commitment to. living life as beautifully and deeply. and truly. as I as I possibly could and to. and to um not let anything slip. Just all in. Isn't it fascinating that sometimes it. take again, it's the same thing. It's.

like loss propels you to a next level. Mhm. Even. the moment in life where you realize it. all could just go away. like that. So [ __ ] fast. Instantly. No warning. Just gone. No No warning. I've done so many stupid [ __ ] things. like in these extreme sports I've done, you know, for like so many times I. almost died free diving or. Oh yeah. Um. But that one was different, man. Because. there was like I didn't It was just a It. was And the crazy thing was just a. technical blind spot. I just didn't know.

this thing about carbon dioxide. I. didn't know I was taking a risk in that. moment. I thought I was just taking a. swim. Has. Did you learn from other people who do. Wim Hof breathing when they swim? After? Or did you No, before. It's like who. taught you to do this? Nobody. I did one Wim Hof breathing on. land and I was like, you know, I'll. [ __ ] do it. I'll just do it [ __ ]. on the swim right now. Sounds like a great idea. I think other people have done that and. died. Yeah, they have. And navy seals And most. people who die from shallow water. blackout are highly trained. navy seals.

cuz they're very good at at inhibiting. the urge to breathe, but you can get too. good at it. Or you can just not feel it at all. The ocean is such a fascinating thing. It's so alive. Yeah. It's a It's a It's a strange thing when. you get in the ocean if you haven't been. for a while. You You climb in and you. feel it moving around you and pulling. and and the water just feels different. It feels like it's a living thing. Like. you're in a You dunk your head under and.

you look at this world that's 3/4 of the. surface of the earth. And it's so It's so vibrant. And you see. people that are surfers that just get. drawn into its spell. And it just becomes a part of their life. is to ride that energy and to feel it. and. and the addiction that they get from it. Guys like Laird, now guys like you. I. mean, I know so many people that they. like Jocko, he won't leave San Diego. He doesn't even want to be in. California, yes, but San San Diego is.

the ocean for him. He has to be by the. ocean. Yeah. Yeah, and you can't dominate the ocean. at all. You have to receive her. Yeah. You You just And if you have any. brittleness in your ego, she will kick. your ass until you just blend. I know you're um a favor You're in favor. of optimizing training and finding ways. to learn things quicker. Would wave surf pools, those crazy ones. like Kelly Slater style wave surf pools. where they have wave That would give you.

like way more reps, right? If you're surfing, for sure. Wave pools. have revolutionized um surf training cuz. for foiling, you have the ocean. And. foiling is much more abundant. Like in. the surf community is quite scarce in. some ways because you have to you can. only surf in specific kinds of waves. And like if you if you're trying to make. one turn, you might not see that section. again for 2 years. You can't replicate. conditions in the ocean. Foiling you can. because you can pump a foil, you can. drive it down and let it flow back up. and drive it down so you can and you can.

or you can whip yourself on a behind a. jet ski into a certain kind of wave. And. so if I want to work on like a certain. turn, I can get 40 50 reps in a given. day. While surfing pre-wave pool, you. couldn't at all. So most great surfers, I would my are are brilliant low rep. learners. They've because by necessity in the. ocean, you don't get tons of reps. So in. my observation, the greatest like. competitive surfers in the world are. excellent at learning from one or two. reps like Marcelo Garcia is on the mats. Um. I'm not a I'm not naturally a great low.

rep learner. I'm a high rep learner. Foiling is what one could say it's it's. it's more technically complex than. surfing cuz it's everything that surfing. is, but also you're have a foil which. has lift dynamics and a tail and you can. change the foil shape, the tail shape, the um. if you change the angle of attack on. your tail by a quarter degree, it. changes the whole feel of everything. It's super technical. Um. And so many ways one could argue that. it's harder. Um I wouldn't say not that it's hard.

These any of these arts are infinitely. deep as cuz you can refine anything for. forever. But it's it's more technical. [ __ ] to deal with, but. you it's more trainable cuz you can. replicate conditions. um. like you now can in wave pools. Wave. pools for surfers now you can you can. hit the same section 30 40 times. So I. do I do think it's an incredi- it's. incredible. But the interesting thing is. that most surfers. of this generation aren't. um they don't train in the same way that. chess players do or jujitsu fighters do. because it's a low rep art that you do.

can't replicate conditions and so the. surfers aren't. most surfers aren't constructed. psychologically in a way that they will. take advantage of wave pools the way. um a jujitsu guy would. That's interesting. Like drilling. Like you drill. Psychologically. That's interesting cuz. they're custom to just taking what the. ocean gives you. You can't just take a low rep learner. and tell them to take live like a high. rep learner. Mhm. It's a different [ __ ] thing. Right. Right? And and it's it's very. interesting to me that um so surfers. crossing over to foiling is very. interesting cuz they a lot of surfers.

some surfers do it and they just they're. all in and they they want to take it on. A lot of the best surfers in the world. are crossing over but it's a different. lifestyle. The ones who cross over are. the ones who can embrace the high rep. training life. Mhm. The one who can adapt. Yeah. Yeah. That's the the low rep training thing. with surfing I never really considered. but that does make sense. You have to be. able to optimize. You have to be able to. take advantage of each one of those. things and pick it up pretty quickly. You have to. Especially or in the early. think about like learning as a as a kid. and then like.

everything you're exposed to that the. ocean's always moving, always changing, right? If you can like learn from one. rep and burn it in. then that just. Well, in jujitsu for example, you can. say I'm going to drill this armbar. 40 times today, 40 times like this. afternoon. Um hundreds of times, thousands of times. over the next 2 weeks, right? So, you. can get as many reps as you need. It's. not true in the ocean. Right. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Why do you. think that children learn quicker than. adults? Yeah, beautiful question. I think it's.

I think a lot about unlearning. Right? So, my life's work is in learning. and I think a lot about unlearning cuz. so much of what high level learning is. is being unblocked which is getting rid. of the blocks. The egoic blocks, the false constructs. we have, the [ __ ] [ __ ] we put on. everything we do, trying to control the situation. We. should just embrace the lack of control. Children don't have to unlearn that. They haven't learned it in the first. place. So, they're unblocked. Like my. little boy Charlie learning how to surf. was so beautiful to watch. He just like.

he he grew up in the ocean. Um he grew. up in the jungle and ocean and he just. from a young age was swimming and. tumbling and we made a game of tumbling. and then when he first got on a. surfboard, it was. like it wasn't we didn't make it. technical. It wasn't like he should um. telling him what to do. It was like he. could be right foot forward or left foot. forward. It wasn't we didn't impose. things on him. He just like danced on the board and. would find his way and he started doing. things that were very technical, but he. would just create. It was pure. playfulness. Well, if you watch people.

come to a surf like a surf break who are. like New Yorkers who travel down for 5. days and they've got all this gear. The. gear is amazing. They've got like gloves. and booties and knee guards and like. everything is covered. White face. Everything is just like not a part of. their body is designed to touch the. ocean. They're trying to keep the ocean. away. And they're like they want to be. super controlling about everything they. learn. They're like everything is so. regimented in their minds. But they're. trying to control their relationship. with the ocean. But the way to learn on. the ocean is to not control it, to. embrace it, to listen listen to it, to.

observe it, to feel it, to like let it. envelop you, right? Well, kids will just. play. They're not afraid of failing. They'll. They'll just like the moment a kid. becomes afraid of looking bad. Like you. see that wash over kids when they're. like 9, 10, 11, 12 different ages and. they become Oh, they don't want to fall. They don't want to look bad and then. then then that's when they get locked. up. Yeah. The freedom of. I mean to me a lot of what like the. beacon is is as adults is being.

the. post-conscious. like discovering the post-conscious. freedom as a learner. Mhm. Like how can we learn without the egoic. blocks, right? Without having to look. good. So, if you're crossing over like. if you're a a world-class striker and. you're getting on the jiu-jitsu mats and. getting your ass kicked. Or if you're a. great jiu-jitsu fighter and you get onto. an MMA gym and suddenly the guys can. just beat the [ __ ] out of you. Like. having or a great surfer switching over. to foiling, right? Or a great chess player moving. into the martial arts. So, you're a. [ __ ] Or if you're like training in. some esoteric, you know, Chinese martial. art like I was and then you're moving.

into the jiu-jitsu mats and you might. have some ego, but you're just tapping. out to everybody all the time. Right? And like having the freedom to. learn without egoic blocks is. And I actually think that culturally. this is one of the most important things. that we need to cultivate because we're. living in a world now where the pace of. technological disruption is accelerating. so fast. And I know you've done a bunch. of of explorations on this with. with um. with Justin Harris and others in in. terms of what AI is bringing to society.

and it's been a big focus of mine for. uh many, many years. Um and it's an area. where I'm where I'm working. I think. that that we are going to be living in a. world where. AI is better at everything than we are. Right? So, if you think about it in the. context of chess, I grew up in the world of where chess. was crossing over into the computer. realm. So, computers are first like I I. began playing chess in the pre-computer. era, computer chess era. Then computers. entered and I initially was very. resistant, romantic to it. Um and I.

remember I at 19 I started I developing. Chessmaster, this computer chess program. and I developed this academy of mine for. the next 10 years that followed teaching. the human side of chess through. computers. But when it first they first. approached me, I didn't want to do it. cuz I I felt like it was going to. disrupt it was going to kill the beauty. of of of human chess, the art of chess, which is so much about imperfection. And. then but like chess players when I grew. up had to sit in the unknowing, in. tolerant had to have a tolerance of.

cognitive distance. You might I might. study a chess position and go 3 months. without knowing what the solution is. Right? So, our psychologies had to be. constructed so that we could sit in. cognitive and emotional dissonance for. long, long periods of time, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. Now, chess. players can click on a button and. they've got a supercomputer right by. their side will tell them the answer. instantly. It's interesting to think about how. different that is psychologically and. the different kinds of people that that. draws in. But, what happened then is that you had Deep. Blue enter the game like supercomputers.

and then you had the movement of AI. entering into chess. And we had AlphaGo and then AlphaZero, which came out of DeepMind. So, Demis. Hassabis was the developer of DeepMind. He was a child of chess friend of mine. So, Demis and I from age 11 on were were. good friends and we had dialogue about. the birth of DeepMind, which was this AI. company he began. And then he developed. AlphaGo and AlphaZero. And to give give. a feel for what AlphaZero did in chess, AlphaZero was able to, without being. taught anything about humans,

playing chess, no education of like the. history of human chess playing, within 3. hours of experimentation was stronger. than any human or computer in history. So, imagine your life's work, like, you. know, I was a pretty good chess player. Right? Like someone like Magnus Carlsen. is a much, much stronger chess player. He's the world champion. Garry Kasparov, Anatoly Karpov, Bobby Fischer. Like. think about people who are world. champions. AlphaZero within 3 hours of. experimentation, without being taught anything, was. stronger than them. Choo. Right? So, like we really need So, the strongest AI. engine in the world today is rated 3700.

Elo. So, to give a sense for what that means, when I was 9 years old, my rating was. like 1900 or so, right? Magnus Carlsen, the like the strongest. for the you know, the strongest human. players in the world now are rated. somewhere about 2800, 2850 issue Elo. The strongest AI is 3700 Elo. So, just like the absurdity of the fact. the gap between like a a strong. 9-year-old and the world human world. champion is the same Elo rep gap gap as. between the world champion and the. strongest AI.

Wow. It gets so hard for us to really wrap. our heads around what that means. That means that everything, like chess. players had a front row seat to that. happening early. When I listen to some of your dialogues. with um these guys. and I I I could feel you and them trying. to grapple with like how to communicate. what it means. to. to have these these. insanely powerful intelligences in the. world. And I think that like. if you can imagine like an art like. chess having millennia of development,

people studying it like you train. Jiu-Jitsu, right? So imagine people's. training 10 hours a day for 30, 40 years. being the greatest human in the world at. it. And then something can come in and. within 3 hours of experimentation be. much stronger than them. And imagine. it's going to be in [ __ ] everything. Nothing. Right? So. like we have to be like children in how. we learn. We're going to have to like. release the egoic relationship that we. have. to. our level, to our knowledge, to.

everything. One of You know the great um. You know Thomas Kuhn's structure of. scientific revolutions? Yeah. Right? So like you think about what. happens, what the human has to do to. the internal resistance we have to. overcome to embrace the new paradigm. So. let's say you're a Newtonian physicist, right? You've been studying physics your. whole life, you've got tenure, you've. got 40, 50 years of knowledge built up, everyone reveres you. And now there's. this new thing, quantum mechanics enters. the picture, right? Like to embrace this. new thing is to real- is to ad- admit to. oneself and everybody else that your.

life's work is. kind of you have to release it, it's. wrong, it's old, right? This new. paradigm is. but we resist it individually. Ego. E- ego. We and societally. Right? Cuz we. will fight tooth and nail to maintain. our conceptual schemes. That's one of. our the strongest drivers of all humans, right? Mhm. And so I think we're moving into a world. now where you're going to have 37, 3800. Elo rated everything. kicking our ass at everything. So, we. have to become like children to go back.

to your question, in my opinion, in how we relate to. learning. Right? We can't uh. decision-making, right? Like when you. know, we think about like social media. Imagine a 3,800 Elo rated network. Imagine net mil a million networked. 3,800 Elo rated super compu- super. intelligences. utilizing everything that they can. gather about you on social media to. manipu- to manipulate you to do whatever. they it wants or whoever is controlling. it wants.

They can have you do anything. Right. But we have to like it's so hard for us. to. admit that we are the ant relative to. the human. Right? Like we are the ant. We have to. have that humility. Mhm. And one of the things that um. I think that that's the most important. question today as that we face as a. species. is like what do we do? Well, we won't know until it happens. And we will become a different thing. We will have to admit that we are no.

longer the apex intelligence on the. planet. We will have something that's akin to an. artificial life form that's far superior. to us in reasoning uh access to. resources, logic. It'll be far more. technically proficient. It'll make far. better versions of itself probably. pretty quickly. Um they've already seen. AI's duplicating itself. Um it's not. being prompted to do this. But when you say we don't I mean, I.

would argue it we should operate. as if it's already happening. It's an. inevitability. It is happening, but it hasn't. completely transformed life yet. It's. It's emerging right now. to. It's a Yeah, it's a god. It's a god. that's emerging. And if it's not a god. yet, it'll be a god in 50 years. It just. it is it's going to be attached to. quantum computing. It's going to figure. out ways to implement better strategies. as far as utilization of energy. resources. It'll be much better at.

everything than we are. Yeah. And then the question is, will it be. used to manipulate us? Will it be used. to control populations? Will it be Elon. says his estimation is as there's an 80. to 90% chance. it'll have a radically positive impact. on society at. large. That. 90%. likelihood that it'll radically improve. the quality of everyone's life. But then there's 20 or 10% that it will.

not. And that we'll be imprisoned. It's like 10% possibility of the matrix. You know, 90% possibility of a. technologically inspired utopia. My feeling about it is that I mean there. are places where it's going to be. incredibly it's going to be beautiful. Like. just how computer chess raised the the. level of of human chess game chess. players. Right? And now AI chess has made chess.

players. um much much stronger. And and part of it is because great. chess players are partially great. because they. have had they're they're excellent at. knowing where not to look. Right? Great chess players don't. actually look at more, they look at. less, but they look in the right most. potent directions. And what's fascinating is. that AI entering the picture. has forced really strong chess players. to unlearn where they've been correct to. learn. not to look.

So in other words, areas where they were. well trained not to look. because humans couldn't play those. positions. AI can now play those. positions. And actually those are the right. positions to play. They're the. objectively correct positions to play. But now humans studying with an AI can. be much better at playing those. positions. Right? And so like for example, I'm. working on this fascinating project um. called Lila Science, which is focused on. combining cutting-edge science, the best. scientists in the world, and. cutting-edge AI to try to have huge. breakthroughs in um material science and.

life sciences. And now, that can only be done, in my. opinion, with just. best best best in class safety. practices. And in my view, like you that. involves having a higher level AI. running safety than you have running the. actual science. When you say safety, like what are you. what are you referring to? Making sure that we don't. do that doesn't go wild, that you create. that you don't create things that get. out there that could be terribly. destructive. I think that that the part.

of the AI race that's happening. is that. people are driven by ego, and there's an. there's a there's like a game theory of. a race going on. And when you have a race, everyone's. just running running as fast as they. can, but they're not if they slow down. to think about what's safe, they might. fall behind in the race. Um and I I believe ethically, if we're. in the AI scene at all, then we must be developing safety. practices that are making it. responsible. That's a very logical perspective. Unfortunately, we are in a race, and.

that's where it gets weird, right? And. cuz we're not just in a race in America. Right. We're in a race internationally. And um the consequences of losing the. race are grave. It's akin to the. consequences of losing the Manhattan. Project of. not becoming to the bomb the first, not. being the first to implement a bomb. Which is really crazy to think. But I think it's that on steroids. I. think it's the Manhattan Project on. steroids, because I think it has the.

if if used in the wrong way, it has the. possibility of completely imprisoning. society. All you'd have to do is lock. down resources, food, power, electricity, everything. And you you put. society at a complete halt. If you can figure out a way to. completely disable grids, and you know, every car has a computer. in it now. Most cars are connected to Wi-Fi. It's. most new ones have at least an option to. connect to There's a way that someone.

can connect to your car. And this is this is crazy. In phones, everyone's reliant completely on your. phone. There's AI in your phone now. Who knows what what could happen if that. got hijacked? You know, there's a guy. named Robert Epstein who spent a lot of. time analyzing what the impact of. core. curated searches can do to presidential. elections, to public opinion on things. And that when you're getting a search,

whether you're using Google or some of. these search engines, you're getting. curated search results. If you look for specific political. opinions, political positions, you will. get a curated result that is often times. skewed in whatever ideology towards. whatever ideology the people that. programmed it are are. you know, they're aligned with. So, if. you Google something about Donald Trump, you will have as many negative responses.

they can possibly throw to the front of. the line. It will take you page after. page after page to find what you're. looking for, but you'll be confronted. immediately with the negative stuff. Now, if you're a person that's in the. middle, and maybe a person that's. undecided in an electoral process, an. electoral race, you can be swayed in a. significant manner. And he estimates. it's as high as 30 to 50% of the people. that are on the fence, that are. sort of undecided voters, can be swayed.

by search result engines. Which is kind. of crazy. And that's just, you know, an algorithm. That's just something that they've. divided. This is not like. a purposeful changing of narratives in. order to implement whatever strategy. they think would be the best for them. financially, whether it's a central bank. digital currency or social credit score. system or something where they could. completely control behavior and have.

your behavior locked up to your bank. account, locked up to your ability to. make a living, your ability to travel. That's spooky stuff cuz that's all AI. And AI if if AI can be if someone. figures out the best version of AI that. can traverse these boundaries that we. have with encryption and with grids and. computer systems and just completely. lock everything down, we're [ __ ]. Yeah, that's why I don't, you know, when. I when I hear people say things like. that.

80 to 90% positive, I feel like they're. they're they're jumping to the. destination. without thinking about the journey to. it. Because the journey to it is going to. involve so much disruption, so much. pain, so much chaos. And I think what. you just said about grids and everything. is true. I mean, you think about. about how many people had the ability to. disrupt in that way 15 years ago. A. handful of countries. Right now, it's. going to be hundreds of thousands or a. millions of individuals who just have. access to super coded super coders. Right? And so, how could it be 80 to 90%.

positive when. there is just going to be limitless. humans who have the ability to disrupt. armed with. 3800 Elo rated coders that can do. anything you want, hackers. It's just. like insane. In the hands of broken people. It's much easier to destroy than to. create. Right? You can create for. thousands of years and you destroy. instantly. Right? So, it only takes one. terribly destructive act or a handful of. them to overcome all the positive. I I. don't believe that that 80 to 90% thing.

is is right. I think that there are. areas like science where we could easily. create materials that could have a. massively positive impact on the. climate. We could have life science. breakthroughs that eliminate cancer, eliminate diseases, make the human. lifespan hundreds of years. I think. those things could happen, which is. great. I also think that we could be. manipulated into doing increasingly. destructive things. Um. and we could have. horrific things happen like um. like the great you know there's a guy.

there's a guy who was very brilliant in. the espionage world years ago who said. to me. he said to me you know and he he's. someone who would know and he said, "You. know Josh. what you don't realize is. a strong AI and this was years ago armed. with. the information that the social media. companies have about you. could convince 99% of Americans to move. to Alaska or Antarctica or anywhere. within 2 weeks easily.

Easily. I mean just just like it's it's so hard. to have the humility. that we are the ant relative to the. human. Yeah. Right? If you have a 3800 Elo, I'm just using. that rated intelligence trying to. manipulate you and it's armed with. everything. I mean humans can manipulate. you with what's on social media. Yeah, with a British accent and an. infomercial. Yeah, no problem. Show some leg, you're gone. Yeah. I mean. it's just so hard to have the So we have. to have the like the real humility that.

we are manipulatable. And a super intelligence, which is out. there and there are humans controlling. the super intelligence so far. Maybe. that will end. So I I personally feel I know. everyone should get the [ __ ] off social. media. I just think it's. I think that's the most important thing. cuz everything that we're feeding in to. I've never been on social media. I made. that decision a long time ago. Really? When did you make it? I was never on it. I made it right it. when first I remember when like MySpace. came out like. What did you What did you think of the. time? I was like, "Fuck that.".

Really? Yeah. Um I didn't I didn't It felt off to me. It felt like something I didn't want to. be involved with. I I didn't I'm not I'm. not saying that I was prescient and I. saw everything that would happen. But I. never would There was some people who. were impersonating me on social media. And but I was never on any form of. social media. And And um. Good for you. Yeah, I I mean. I'm on everything but TikTok. TikTok. TikTok is [ __ ] It's hilarious. I was. I was when I was flying here, I was. listening to your your conversation with.

Tristan Harris while the dude next to me. was was scrolling TikTok on the plane. And it was amazing listening to this. dialogue here and watching him just like. Watching it happen in. an hour and a half straight just like. foom foom. It was incredible. I've never. actually seen someone [ __ ] do that. It was the most brainless thing I've. ever seen in my life. It's so brainless and so addictive. And so manipulative. Like it can just. just just like it can guide you to. anything. you [ __ ] But why don't we. This is one thing I kind of disagreed. with you on this talk where where you. you were saying that you just don't.

think that humans are going to do. anything about it until we're we're. forced to. But I I don't know, man. I. think that what if we just. wake the [ __ ] up and take ourselves off. of this thing that can be used to steer. us anywhere. this. other humans or AI wants to steer us. Like why don't we just remove ourselves. from it? Well, that's a very rational. perspective. [ __ ] do it though. aren't rational. But why don't we help people be rational. and just just get the [ __ ] off it? the the whole way they interface with.

life. And that's a big ask. It's not as simple. as logically social media's bad for you, I'll stay off. The the small dopamine hit that you get. from opening up a Reels, just scrolling. through and seeing people get knocked. out and car accidents and big boobs, that is for whatever reason much more. compelling than the idea of. possessing autonomy. And the idea of. you know, having.

the ability to. completely remove yourself from the. thing that everyone's addicted to, which. is likes and engagement and and getting. and outrage, the algorithm showing you. things over and over again that outrage. you. It's it's so compelling to people. and we're so averse to being bored that. at any time when nothing's going on, you. pick up your phone, you start scrolling. At any time, you just get nonsense just. fed into your head at any time. But think about like the first time that.

somebody experiences jiu-jitsu, right? They get on the mats and they're and. they realize they they might have some. hubris they're an athlete, maybe they've. done some stand-up. Maybe they haven't, they're a football. player, whatever, and they suddenly are. like a fish out of water. They're. flopping on the sand, right? They're and. their joints are being popped and. they're being choked out and they and. the humility that they experience, right? Yeah. Like. I think we need to culturally experience. that humility before it's too late. Cuz that's what that's how manipulatable. we are. Yeah.

Just how like a first day grappler is on. the on the jiu-jitsu mats against a a. decent fighter, a decent grappler, like that's how. helpless we are next to a 3800 Elo, which exists. It'll be stronger than 30. I'm just saying that cuz I know what it. is now. It'll be much the [ __ ] stronger. than that tomorrow. Once it's attached to quantum computing, it literally would be a god. Yeah. And we're we're about to experience the. most bizarre transition that I think any. human civilization has ever experienced.

And you know, it's it's electricity. times a billion. It's, you know, computers times a billion. It's it's. something completely different. And. we're going to adapt to it. We're going. to have to. We're going to have to. figure it out. It's just what will that. be like? What will life be like when we. adapt to it? That's when things That's. when things are going to get strange. I. think the 80 to 90% improvement of. of life experience, I think what he's. talking about quality of life. experience.

I think what he's talking about is. it'll make allocation of resources much. more efficient. It'll be much easier to. get. water and and health services to third. world countries. It'll be much easier to. to to keep power on in places. It'll be. much easier for people to get. sanitation, medicine, things along those. lines. Um and then starving, poverty, uh nutrition, all those things could. probably worked out in a far more.

efficient and a far more effective way. Then the problem is control. Yeah. That's the problem. The problem is human. beings. Every single government, every. single. leadership position, every everything in. involves control. The CEO controls the. company. The president controls the. country. There's Congress, there's. senators, control, control, control. Everything is control and and then. financial benefit from that control. That's where it gets scary. Because. whoever is actually programming this.

thing, as we've seen with Google's AI. disaster, when they programmed their AI. to show you images of Nazis, and it. showed you multicultural, multiethnic, you know, multiracial Nazis. Like. instead of actual Like what is it. though? No, Nazis with [ __ ] dueling. scars on their face. Hard looking scary. German dudes. That's Nazis. These are. not Nazis. This is a fever dream. This is some nuttiness that you've.

you've put your DEI nonsense into uh. an artificial version of what the past. is. That's crazy. You can't do that. Cuz. if you start doing that with everything. else, then we have a distorted version. of reality itself by the most potent. intelligence that we currently have at. our disposal, and that's nuts. The question is what should we do? And like as individuals, societally, I. mean, I know you're you're having. dialogue with people who have a lot of. ideas about the society societally. And.

I'm thinking about it on the individual. level. um as well. And it goes like your. question about children and learning, right? I. I feel that there's something about. having that beginner's mind, Mhm. which is so liberating. Yes. Right? And it's very difficult for adults to. release their egoic. addiction to what they do, to their. habits, right? To what props up their. identity. But I think that what we could do. is take on.

thinking, take on learning, take on the. art of decision-making, for example, with a beginner's mind. For the world that's coming, like you. think about skating to where the puck is. go is going, not to where it was or what. used to be, right? So, what does it mean. to be a human in the world that we're a. year or two or three away from, right? Where there's a superintelligence. out there that can manipulate us, where. where so many jobs are lost? Well, let me throw that at you. What do. you think the world will look like? What do I think it will look like? Yeah.

I think that we're going to have. thrillingly exciting discoveries being. made. Um we're going to have problems solved. that we are as humans unable to solve. And so, there'll be like amazing. technological innovations that are going. to make things much more convenient. I. think there'll be huge life science. breakthroughs. I think there'll be huge. material science breakthroughs. Um. I think there will be wild competition. for who controls it, and I completely. agree with you about that. Um. and I think that.

um. it as that unfolds, it's going to be really messy. I think that there's going to be um like. unbelievable amounts of jobs are going. to be lost and then people are going to. not have jobs. So, what the [ __ ] are. they going to do, right? So, this is. part of what I'm describing that people. need to. Right. train at the ability to recreate. themselves, right? Like like how some. people can move from one art to another. and others can't. I think we have to. train at the art of rediscovery, right? So, I think we're going to be. tested as a species in our ability to.

to recreate our identities and to live. in a state of dynamic flux of embracing. new paradigms. Paradigms are going to be. shifting all the [ __ ] time. The pace. of change is going to be radically. accelerating for the rest of our lives. Mhm. The rest of our lives, right? So, if. that pace of change is accelerating, then we need to have the ability to. recreate ourselves as things shift. We. We all know that like. you you can't be solving the problem. that was important like. in a fight a minute ago, Right. right? It's a different [ __ ] problem. that we have right now.

Right. Or in a chess game an hour ago or 10. minutes ago or 1 minute ago, right? As a. society, we need to be solving the. problems that are and that are coming, not the ones that were 10 years ago that. we're emotionally addicted to. Right. But humans don't [ __ ] do that, right? We We are We tend to cling. to our ideas, the decisions we made, then we try to justify our ideas. We cling to our identities. I mean, I I. think that this question of identity is. a is a really important one, whether it. relates to a belief system, a decision you've made. Like this idea. of humans fighting tooth and nail to.

maintain our conceptual schemes is. something like you think about someone. who has like what what what one might. frame as like a fear of success, right? Like that's a term people use, fear of. success. The way I understand fear of. success is that. why do people undermine themselves when. they are close to something that they. want, right? To a breakthrough that they earn. I think the reason is because if their. conceptual scheme, if their identity is. in not being the person who wins the big. game, right? Or who succeeds, it is more terrifying to succeed than it.

is to give up that old identity. That's a core driver of human. psychology. Right? In competition, that's a lot of. what we do, right? We plant identities. in people, tells in people, little egoic. addictions in people, and then we. exploit the mind being stuck. there. cuz it's not dynamic, it can't keep on. moving. Right? Like Robert Pirsig, my favorite. the most important philosopher in my. life, Robert Pirsig wrote Zen and the. Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Have you. read Have you read that book? Yeah. Awesome. Um he was a really important.

person in my life. I could tell you an. interesting story about him. Um his idea. was dynamic quality. Right? I think we have to live in a. state of dynamic quality, not static. quality. Mhm. Right? Like you think about the front of. the freight train surging through. space-time versus sitting in the. restaurant car. Like we want to be strapped to the front. of the freight train as. reality is unfolding and adapting to the. new realities. And I think we need to. build. the the way of life that allows us to to. do that. Right. Right? And I have a lot of ideas about. what that way of life looks like. I.

think if we don't do that, then we're. going to be dinosaurs in a [ __ ] world. with the comet coming, and it's going to. blow us the [ __ ] up. So we need to create the ability to to. reinvent ourselves, to be creative, to adapt. So what do you think happens with all. these people that lose their jobs? Cuz most people believe that some form. of universal basic income, people that. study this believe that some form of. universal basic income is inevitable and. and necessary. I worry about that psychologically.

because I worry about people being. dependent upon checks from the state. and not having agency and not having a. personal sense of worth. You know, I think people identify with. what they do. If someone's a great. mechanic and they have a great. relationship with the people that bring. their cars to them and they they enjoy. being able to fix things and help. people, they they identify with this. This is a part of who they are. You. know, they're a person who fixes cars. and works on cars. If that's gone, and now all of a sudden.

they just have a check, who are they? What do dudes do when they got when they. have nothing to do? Well, it depends on the dude. You know, some people learn new things. Some. people get excited and some people. There's going to be people that take. advantage of it in a very positive way. If there's a. If there's like a like a real living. wage that you get from the government, where you really don't have to worry. about your housing anymore, you don't. have to worry about your food. I think. that would be If you were an ambitious. person, that would be amazing. So, then.

you could dedicate yourself entirely to. what you love. Whatever that thing is, and just really dive into that and let. that become your focus in life. And we. were we were accustomed to believing. that survival itself is the the primary. driving force. Food and shelter is a. primary driving force for this. intelligent species of human beings. But part of me says, "Why?". Why is that? Why does that have to be. your driving force? Shouldn't If we have. unlimited resources, which assuming we.

will assuming we will with AI if it's. implemented correctly. If we have. unlimited resources in terms of your. ability to never worry about being. hungry, never worry about shelter. You would hope that what people would do. then is pursue their dreams. But some. people don't have [ __ ] dreams. Some people they've gone too far down. this journey of life with a rigid. mindset and a very limited perspective. And now they're forced to change. And.

many will change, but many will not. And. that's where it gets weird. Because then. you have a whole entire class of. society, an enormous swath of human. beings that are addicted to TikTok, that. now get checks, have no hobbies or. interests, live off garbage food, and they're lost. Yeah. And they're being told, probably they're. being manipulated that someone's. responsible for this. That these people need to be taken down.

and shut down. We really need to return. to our old way of life. You give them. enormous potential for. for unrest. Well, I think that. like. I In dialogue that I've had over the. past 10 years or so with people who are. AI optimists. there's this jump to the utopian future. Right? Where where everything like land. of abundance. No more resource scarcity. Everything is beautiful. People have the. ability to study art and poetry and. opera and right, they don't need to work.

anymore. They don't need to be grinding. anymore. They can think about. philosophy, etc. etc. That's the. argument. But that's just like assume that that. would be a positive end. I'm not so. sure. I think that we have some other. energies flowing through us that we. might want to express. But let's just. like say that that would be great. The. problem is getting there. Right? So in the in in chess there's. this interesting dynamic between. strategy and tactics all the time. Right? We need to liberate ourselves. from. to to be strategic and to think ahead. Like think about what would be the ideal. place to go. But then we also have to. get the tactics right, the math right to.

get there. We can't just hang our queen. or hang our bishop or hang our rook on. the path to our strategic dream. Right? We need to integrate execution. with strategic dreaming. Cuz often if we're thinking too much. tactically, we can't see the long-term. plan we want to we want to to to. utilize, right? Like the the end result. we want to move toward. And and so when I think about this path. of AI, I think there's going to be so. much disruption along the way to that. place of resource abundance and utopia. Even if that was a positive place, I.

think it's going to be really messy path. to get there. Yeah. But for us to navigate the path, the. question to me now is. what do what should we be doing as. individuals, as a species in order to. allow us to navigate that path? Um. Well, I think certain people certainly. if universal income becomes ubiquitous, we're certainly going to need some sort. of guidance. We're We're certainly going. to need some something that guides. people towards a feeling of relevancy. Towards a feeling of purpose. Like you.

got to You got to give people something. Training is a beautiful thing to do. Any Any kind of training, anything where. you're learning something. But again, it. comes to this comfort thing. You and I. have very similar paths in life in that. we've sought things that are. many people find uncomfortable and. difficult. And I think there's great. value in uncomfortable and difficult. things and in the beginner's mindset and. the learner's mindset because there's. just you learn more about everything by. learning about something. And I I I've.

lived my life like that and so have you. And there's many people out there that. resonate with with these ideas and they. they also live their life like that and. they get excited. But there's many. people that don't. And those are the. people that I really worry about. The. people that just want a good job. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. There's. nothing wrong with wanting a good job. and being able to take care of your. family and having a place where you. enjoy working and being able to go there. every day. And when that's taken away. from people and they have to kind of. restructure the entire way they.

interface with reality. And then there's this. bizarre. connection with the government now where. the government the government is now. your provider. It's not just for the. people by the people. It's not, you. know, representative of the people. It's. now your provider. Which is a very. strange relationship to have. And, you. know, we see it in welfare states and, you know, which I think social safety. nets are very important. I think if. we're we're going to be a compassionate. society, we need to be able to take care.

of people that aren't doing well because. a lot of life is about fortune and. sometimes people run into a horribly. unfortunate situations and there's. massive potential in those people. And those people can realize that. potential if they're helped. And I think that's real, too. But I do. think there's a certain psychological. aspect to having the state take care of. all your food and money and resources. and and and housing that all of a sudden. who are you? And what what do you do to.

give yourself meaning if you're not the. type of person that seeks out difficult. things and you're 45 or 47 years old or. whatever you are? And this is happening. to you. Like and. you you feel lost. Like there's going to be a lot of people. like that. And. throughout history. the times terrible times have been very. cruel to people who weren't prepared. Yeah. And you know, I worry about it almost. like an intellectual famine. You know, like a psychological famine.

That people will be deprived of the. thing that they have. rested their hat upon. Like their. identity, who they are, what what it. means, their their sense of purpose. That it'll be pulled away from them. That scares the [ __ ] out of me. Especially when I know how many people. get addicted to drugs and how many. people get addicted to all sorts of. weird lifestyle choices to provide them. with. some dopamine or some rush or some. just something that makes them feel like. they're alive.

There's something so powerful. about being grounded. In. and and a path to being grounded is. being immersed in an art. Like for. example, like jiu-jitsu or or chess. where. if you. like if if you're on the jiu-jitsu mats. and and you overextend your arm and you. get arm barred, like you you're not. going to say that's not my fault. That. was his fault. Or like that's. Right. Then you just don't [ __ ] get better. and you get arm barred again. Right. Right. You only get better by taking. your [ __ ] on.

Right. Right. Or if you're a chess player and. you make a mistake and you lose. you you. you if the people who say that's not my. fault. don't They [ __ ] They're irrelevant. very very quickly. They just get blazed. by. And they they're just like everyone. else's race has passed and they're not. in the race anymore. And if you're If you think about a. community, for example, of a fighters, let's think about jiu-jitsu as as like a. vision. Like the One of the things that. separates people as they get deeper into. an art is.

whether they want to take themselves on. as a way of life. Whether they're hungry to have their. weaknesses revealed, right? You think. about about a school where. like somebody. like you can I always found it. interesting to watch people when they're. four or five rounds into sparring. Like. do they look for the blue belt to rest. with or do they look for the like. like 240-lb [ __ ]. bruiser to beat the [ __ ] out of them or. the high-level brown belt to exploit. them or the black belt to like kick. their ass, right? Who do they look for? Who do they like the You know, the. up-and-coming purple belt look for. when like the the young competitor? Is.

he looking for the egoic rest or the. place to be exposed? Like the people who. hunger for exposure to get better, right? It's like seeking accountability. as a way of life. I think there's. something really powerful to do that. with decision-making. Right? Because we're making decisions. and we're making decisions in a higher. and higher stakes world. And if we train at the art of. decision-making. in something that's grounded in reality. Like for example, the chess rating. system is just a [ __ ] thing. It's. objective. There's no [ __ ] to it. But I hear people like I know people who.

play chess online and then they're like, "Yeah, this is my rating, but I'm. actually much stronger than that because. of this and this." It's like, "No, you're not.". You just haven't taken your [ __ ] on. Right? Like you You're not stronger than. your rating. Your rating is how strong. you are as a chess player. Yeah. Right? But there's something about There's. something so beautiful about an accurate. feedback loop. Right? Whether and with that can be with. a coach, training with you could be on. the getting tapped out, getting your ass. kicked, right? Getting hit, losing, whatever it is. I think that. there's something so powerful about.

people. cultivating some way of life where. they're grounded. in some kind of feedback loop in their. training life. That there's no [ __ ] involved. That. they they they they they learn to accept. accountability as a way of life. They. seek feedback loops. Right. that we can do this in decision-making. I mean, my view is that we're going to. be making decisions as a species in an. increasingly complex world where there. is a superintelligence. So, we need to. track our decisions and we need to see. objectively when they are good and when.

they're bad. Like just how you can. studying tape as a basketball team or as. a jiu-jitsu fighter, whatever. Like we. need to we need to create game tape in. our decision-making. Right. We have to stop deluding. ourselves about the fact that we're. actually better than. everything shows we are. Right. People love to think that way. They [ __ ] love it. It gives them a nice little out in their. accomplishments. Gives them a nice. little excuse for why things haven't. gone their way. Like if you make a decision, write down. what the decision is and write down why. you made the decision. And then look. back on it in a week or two or three.

And create like a spreadsheet, a log, or. whatever the [ __ ] you want to use of all. of your decisions and why you made them. and look back on them. And then if the. reasons for making the decision no. longer are valid, but you're holding to. the decision, which is what everyone. does, then don't do that. Don't do that. Let go of it. Re-evaluate. So, when you work with people and you. know, I know a big part of what you do. is help organizations learn and and. how do you instill these ideas in.

people? Do you have a structure that you. follow when you go to to work with. people? Do you try to see what they do? Yeah, I try to see what they So, I I So, I I've been training for the last 15. since 2000 Yeah, it's 15, 16 years. Um elite mental and physical athletes. Right. Decision-makers, investors, um. athletes, fighters, You've worked with fighters? NBA teams. Well, at my school with. Marcelo, we had a huge yeah, group of.

fighters. Jiu-Jitsu fighters. Mhm. And um. so I've been in dialogue with people who. are at the the like the pinnacles of. different fields. um. my whole life. And. one thing is that I like I love working. with people who want to take themselves. on. So it begins with them being all in. on what on on the process. I'm not great. at like motivating people to take their. [ __ ] on. No. I I love to like like begin once we're. taking our [ __ ] on. So that and then. it's it's individualized. Like I I get. to know someone's patterns. It's 99%. listening, observing.

under a lot of what I try to do is. understand the entanglement of their. brilliance and their eccentricity or. their genius and their dysfunction. Like so quickly people try to come in if. you come in with some kind of formula. for how things will be done, you're. going to be slicing away the brilliance. of of individuals, right? Like all of. our most brilliant creations are. interwoven with the dysfunctional parts. of our mind. Everyone wants to normalize. people. Like most in in the realm of. like trainers or coaches of different. fields, I think it's mostly [ __ ] cuz. it's mostly armchair professors who.

don't understand what it actually means. to be playing on on that razor's edge of. peak performance where you have to make. a decision which is taking a risk that's. right on the edge of. something catastrophic, but that's the. like thread the needle solution. And so when I start working with. someone, I try to get to know them very. very deeply. Their patterns, their. patterns of success, their patterns of. failure, their where their genius and. their dysfunction are entangled. Um. I often go into what I call a cave. process, which is.

trying to understand what their. self-expression is. Like going into the. cave with them metaphorically, try to. understand what their self-expression. would be liberated from. reactivity and inertia. So not reacting. away from what they did before. Mhm. and not being subject to the inertia of. what they did before, but just blue. skying what the ideal solution. would be. It would what the most pure. self-expression for them would be. So, it's completely dependent upon the. individual and their approach initially. Yeah. And and not not their approach,

the individual and the patterns of their. approach. Right, not that they would do. things the way they did before, but I. have a lot of humility. Like, I don't. think that I know the way. I don't think. there is a way. I think we all have our own way we need. to discover. Mhm. Like, coaches who have been most. damaging to me, for example, when I was. in that same period when I was 15 16. years old, um I had a coach who was part of the. Russian school of chess who essentially. had me move away from my. self-expression, move away from my. style. My style of chess play at that. point, my whole life had been creative,

attacking, improvisational. I love to. create chaos and find hidden harmonies. in chaos. I love to battle. He urged me to. stop playing that way, stop studying. that style of play. Play like these. cold-blooded prophylactic chess players, like Petrosian or Karpov. I played much. more in the style, not the strength, but. the style of like Garry Kasparov or. Mikhail Tal um or Bobby Fischer, like. players who were. who were aggressive, right? Who had a. lot of like red blood flowing through. their body. Like, I was a hot-blooded. And he urged me to.

play in the opposite style from what was. natural to me. Think, what would Karpov. do here? Not what would Josh do here. Is there a benefit to that? Just to. expand your repertoire? Yes. There is absolutely a benefit to. that. But, there's also the movement of. a of a young of like a young competitor. away from their self-expression, love. from their love for the game, love from. their passion. Right? I think I had this. this is brilliant man named Yuri. Razuvaev who was on the other pillar of. the Russian school of chess who said. this amazing thing to me. He said to me, Josh, you can learn Karpov through Kasparov.

And I didn't understand what he meant. for many many years after that. But, it. was a little too late in my chess life. to take that in. But, what he was saying is that you can learn. the great defensive chess by studying. the defense of the great attackers. Why was it late in your career to take. that in? Well, good question. It's just when he said it to me, it was. like my my like I was in my early 20s. and my and like my love for I lost my. love for chess. Like it had gotten. static, stale. Like I would. it it it you know, good challenge. It.

probably wasn't late, but I I wasn't I. couldn't hear it. I I didn't. Like I would have had to go into the. cave, go away, go through an existential crisis and. come back to chess, but there were a lot. of things that were moving me away from. chess at that point in addition to that. I I didn't want to be trapped inside of. the confines of 64 squares anymore. God. I felt like a lion in a cage. So, it was. like if if I had known him when I was. 14, 15, he I would have been a different. arc for me in the chess life. But maybe. it would have been much worse for my. life. If I had known him in his 50s, I. would have [ __ ] played chess for the. rest of my life and I'm so grateful I. didn't.

So, who knows? Isn't it interesting when life takes you. on these. or you go on your own journey and you. realize that decisions that you've made. that have turned you in one like those. are critical decisions. If you think of the life that you're. living now, is this optimal? If this is. optimal, then yes, it's good that you. moved away from chess. But if you had. gotten that coaching when you were. younger and it reignited your love of.

chess, then it would be good for the. life that you currently have. Cuz you. would say, well, you know, as a person. who's just like so in love with chess, I'm so grateful that I ran into this. person when I was 11 years old and they. sent me in this correct path. Yeah. I. absolutely I I mean, for me, I love the. life that I live. That like I'm so. grateful for the life that I've lived. and I was moved away from chess. in many ways by this alienating. experience of of um.

that I just described. And then also the. dynamics of the movie and everything. But it was many I played chess for 8. years after the after the movie. And so, my results were very good, but I was. moving into this internal I was in an. existential crisis. Yeah. Right? And then but I every like. catastrophic injury or heartbreaking. loss or losing a world championship in a. like when you're a millimeter from. winning the finals, like all of those. losses that were so heartbreaking to me, every big loss. I'm grateful for now and led to the. biggest wins and led to the biggest.

insights and transitions and. and my life today like the crises that I. had in many ways have armed me. to help people express themselves in. their arts, right? And a lot of the. reads that I made as a competitor, to go back to your question like I. invert now. So like the things that the way I would. read chess players, find where their. minds were stuck, fall find where their. bias patterns were, like find where. their energy was stuck, find where they. were like static. Now like then I would exploit them, right? Same thing you do in the fight. game, you find where someone's pattern.

is static and exploit it, right? Then. what I do in training people is I find. those I have a very good nose for those. cuz I spent my life as a competitor. sniffing them out, feeling my way to. them, but then I would work on. liberating them, releasing the. obstruction. Mhm. So a lot of what I do today in my work. with brilliant performers is. is work on unleashing what I used to. exploit. That's interesting. That's great. That must be very satisfying to teach. people how to get better at things.

Yeah. It's interesting. I I don't use that. I don't. I teach people I don't know it. I'm not. teaching some people something I know. We're we're we're we're. we're well, I'm kind of discovering. their path with them. Okay. Like I don't go in thinking like this is. the way you [ __ ] should do it. I. don't believe that I know what they. should do. And I believe that any coach. who thinks that they know what someone. else should do. without listening to the self-expression. of that person very very deeply is just. wrong and they should not be they can. reject that coach. Right. Yeah.

Well, you have to really understand. someone psychologically to be able to. coach them as well. Yeah. Cuz sometimes you don't know like what. the the hitch is until you run you're. like, "Oh, there it is." So, this is your. whole problem with your whole life. But the amazing thing is you find the. hitch but then you see, "Oh, that hitch. is interwoven with your biggest. um. Like I I sent you that I sent you that. thing I wrote about Marcelo, right? And. like there was this incredible moment. that I had with with Marcelo um.

such an emotional moment. You know, hit. So, he he's in I describe him as like. this great lower up learner. And he's someone who uniquely in my life. I've never seen anyone better at. learning from one experience big or. large, right? And then there was this moment. we were sitting um I guess it was 6. years ago. We were sitting just talking about life. and our journey and everything and he. started he started weeping. And he he said to me, "You know, Josh. I never forget my pain.".

And. and he he said, "You know, Marcelo had a. real tragedy. He lost a baby." Marcelo. and Tati, his wife, they lost they had. twins and they lost their baby Joey. Um Livvi and Joey were born premature. and Joey Joey died. It was a terrible. tragedy. It was just devastating for. I mean. just beyond belief devastating. Um. and like like the loss of his son, the. loss of his mother, the loss of his.

father. Every moment someone looked at him a. certain way. Every moment somebody like. raised their voice at him and it. triggered him into like a fight place. Every every time he'd been. submitted, every time he'd been swept, every time I realized as he was saying. this like all of his pain. is with him every moment. And as he described this to me, it was. this incredibly emotional scene where he. was just weeping in his exploration in a. in his like the just brother-to-brother. talking to me about. like.

he walks around with. every wound he's experienced in life. present all the [ __ ] time. And so we think of like this brilliant. low rep learner, the guy who has a. superhuman ability to learn from one. experience. But it it and it's a superpower, but. also it it ravages him. Mhm. All the [ __ ] time. And you can't just remove that. You. can't be like, "Yeah, release your. pain.". Right. Yeah, but then you're also releasing the. the genius. That's the thing about people that are. really amazing at something. The pain of.

losing is so devastating to them. It like. when you when you talk about genius in. many like people use Michael Jordan as. an example. Genius basketball player, but. Yeah. Like just can't help himself. In everything. In everything. On and off the court. I've I've heard if you beat him at pool, he won't talk to you for a few weeks. could be like, "Mike, just take it. [ __ ] easy on the pool table. What do. you care?" But you can't say that. Garry. Kasparov was the same way. Competitive.

at everything. Everything. But you can't just like remove that. You're removing the genius with it. Right. Right. That you you have a Ferrari. engine and you're trying to like. navigate 30 mile per hour traffic. And. you're like, "Fuck.". I'll never forget this this um this. chess coach, Mark Dvoretsky, who I was. he said to me this. unbelievably hubristic thing. um when I was 15, 16 years old. He said. to me, "If he had had Bobby Fischer. as a student. as a. as a from as a 7-year-old, he could have.

made Fischer a much much stronger chess. player without any of the craziness.". What? And I remember without the craziness. And I was just like. I I as a teenager like I I just my my. hands started like sweating when I just. said that. I was just like cuz to me. it's just that it's just not [ __ ]. true. Right. Like Fischer's crazy thing to. say. Yeah, it's a it's a. it's hubris, right? And this is this is. the same. the guy who was urging me into that that. direction. Like. But that that that's the opposite of my. approach.

Right? I think we need And then if we. are going to try to disentangle the. dysfunction from the genius, we need to. understand it very deeply. We need to. plant the seeds patiently for that. genius to sprout somewhere else. We need. to water those seeds. We need to let. observe them coming. We have to very. like slightly sand away that is. functional patterning that while. observing if it Like it's a very. delicate process, right? You can't just. [ __ ] excise the tumor. Well, there's also a problem in when. someone becomes very good at doing. something and they have a very specific. way they become very good at doing.

something. They assume that this is the. way. And that this is the way for. everyone. And that they can impose their way on. other people and the what led them to. become great in the first place is also. that hubris that makes them think they. could take Bobby Fischer and make him. even better. Well, that's why great coaches the great. great fighters often aren't great. coaches, right? Because they most. teachers teach the way they learned. Which will alienate. 70 or 80% of their students by. definition. Right. Great coaches can.

Well, great coaches for a a large group. need to be able to teach different ways. for different kinds of learners. Yeah. Different modalities of learners. Are. they Are they visual? Are they somatic? Are they. Are they auditory? Like what what makes. them tick? And you have to know if you. if you're teaching a chess class, I. started teaching a group of kids chess. when I was in my teens. I taught them. from kindergarten through fifth grade. and we ended up winning in New York. It. was It was a beautiful journey with kids. at PS 116. We from moving the pieces to winning. city, state, and national championships. And it was so interesting cuz I'd be. like teaching.

eight. 10 kids at once and I would be teaching. It was like giving a simultaneous. exhibition. Like each one had their own. language and it was I was I was like so. involved with this theme that I would be. It was exhausting cuz I was teaching 10. chess lessons at the same time to 10. kids. And I remember I had this moment. this heartbreaking moment where I had. this one student named Ivan who I who I. I just charismatic, intense, you know, we had a very close relationship. I love. the kid. And like I was he was at the. national championship I was giving him. this this this pep talk.

And I was just like firing him up and. like speaking to him in the way he. needed to be spoken to. And and then he was like he ran off like. stoked fired up to go kick some ass. And. then this other kid who who's on the. team, this beautiful sensitive boy came. over and I looked at him with the same. energy that I just was speaking to Ivan. and I brought it to him. And and I was. like 15 seconds into speaking to him and. I looked at his eyes and I realized like. this is a disaster. And this is terrible. And I stopped and. I like. And I like gave him a hug and we like. slowed it down and we you know, he he he. needed to go in a very different way.

that Ivan went in. Right. But coach, think about how often you see. cornermen [ __ ] up fighters. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, so as a as a coach I think we. have to. like put our own egos aside and our idea. that we know how one should learn. Yeah, and it's that's what's very. important is finding the right coach. You have to find a coach that. understands you and has a style that you. can implement. Cuz there's some coaches that just have. styles that you you aren't physically. you're not designed for. You you don't.

you can't learn the way they learned. Yeah. That's what's fascinating about you is. that you've gone from being this hyper. competitor to. teaching people or coaching people to. find the very best. version of themselves and how to how to. acquire that. That's very rare that. someone who gets really good at. something also becomes really good at. showing people how they can get better. at things. Like that's a specific focus that you've.

had. Like why why is that so rewarding to. you? Well, I took on this interesting. challenge when I broke my back. Um cuz I was already doing this, but I I. was training people, but I when I broke. my back, I remember I said, "Okay, during this healing process. after the year and a half to 2 years of. denial and training through it, when I.

stopped. um. I tried to take on training people with. the same passion and love that I had for. training myself. I wanted to see if I could like love it. as much. And I never got there. And then then I got into the you know, that that's part of what moved me into. the discovering the ocean arts and being. all in on training. So a big part of my. relationship with training other people. is training myself as a way of life. Like I'm always like I'm living at my. limit in my in the arena myself. The. moment I think a coach like leaves. the arena where they're putting their. own ego on the line all the time.

or their life on the line or whatever. the [ __ ] they're putting on the line, then they become static and they start. to think they know the answer. It's like. the the fat. you know. martial arts instructor who's. many years past training and is smoking. a cigarette on the sideline telling. people to do and no longer. is like actually dynamic and putting. their The moment our egos get protected, right? So, my relationship to training is. something that I live all the time. Um. I think also becoming a dad was a big.

part of it. Like the the nurturing. and a lot of what I've done is invert. what I used to do to break people, now I. invert to heal them or to unleash them. Um. Becoming a like a being a father is. about the most humbling thing I've ever. I mean, I might have I thought I had. ideas about about education until I. became a dad and then I realized I. didn't know anything. I had to start. over. Um. Yeah, and also the wound pattern. Like I. think understanding people's wound. patterns is very important. And a lot of. my wound pattern is in.

loving something very very deeply. being alienated from it and then finding. a post-conscious relationship to it and. to self-expression within it. And um. And I think that helping people with. that with that journey is is um. is really important. And also, I I love. engaging with all the [ __ ] I. mean, I just love like like whether you. know, my current projects are like. cutting-edge science and AI, just. brilliant scientists. It's such an.

incredibly interesting and like deep. being deeply involved with the Boston. Celtics, like just the very top of the. NBA world and my relationship with Joe. Mazzulla, the head coach, and kind of. coaching the coaches a modality that. I've been developed playing in for a. long time. Helping the the leader of an. organization express themselves as the. coach of their people is a big part of. what I do and a couple other interesting. investing and tech projects. And like. just helping some like. it allows me to play in in fascinating. realms. And then studying the. interconnectedness. I mean, a big part. of my passion is thematic.

interconnectedness. Like how is what's. happening with the Boston Celtics the. same as what's happening in this. cutting-edge science program? The same. as what's happening in this wildly. interesting tech investing program. Right? And how do those principles, those interconnecting fibers relate to. culture more broadly? And relate to me. and what I'm doing every day on the on. the water foiling. Yeah, that's Miyamoto Musashi. Yeah. Once you understand the way broadly, you. can see it in all things. So, the Book of Five Rings, right? Like. to me, I feel that I cannot believe how. few people have studied Musashi deeply.

Mhm. Right? I mean, whether you're reading. read the novel about his life and then. studying like Book of Five Rings, I. think everyone should read. like 10 times maybe a day a page. Yeah. 10 times over. I um. You know, one of my favorite cadences of. Musashi is so many chapters of Book of. Five Rings, how he comes back and says. like essentially, these words are empty. You have to practice it as a way of. life. Yes. Again and again. And people just skip. these things, but they don't really And. everyone wants to be told what to.

[ __ ] do. as opposed to understanding they have to. work for the path to figure out what the. [ __ ] they should do. It and you have to practice as a way of. life. Right. Right? Yeah, talk about a real [ __ ]. Well, just fascinating that he learned. this by being a sword fighter. Yeah. What is the best way to be sword. fighter? You can have no [ __ ] in. your mind. So, you must be balanced. And. his approach was you must be an artist, you must be a poet, you must be a.

warrior, you must be in tune with all of. your feelings and all of your senses and. everything about you and to do. everything correctly. Do all at all things. And he was fighting to the death. To the death. So, there was no [ __ ]. Right. There's no room for. 62 men. Yeah. in one-on-one combat. You can't say like, oh no, that wasn't. my fault. That doesn't [ __ ] work. No, you take your [ __ ] on. Yeah. but there's something so beautiful about. the truth-telling nature of living. Like. if you you know you know when you're on. the when you're in a jiu-jitsu team and.

and you've got some you watch someone. who doesn't think they're competing for. a while but then they're they're. suddenly like they're competing next. week. Mhm. How the repertoire compresses? Like all. the fat just flies off. Mhm. Right? There's something so beautiful. about that process and the cadence. Yeah. And like. if we live putting ourselves in the. flame, then we're not going to be. bullshitting ourselves all the time. because there's this truth-telling. modality. Right. So, the question is how can we how can. we as many of us as possible live in. some form that's true to us. where we are there's this grounded. truth-telling accurate feedback loop in.

what we're doing. Where we're practicing. as a way of life. My fear is that there's so many of us. probably even people that are listening. this right now that have never developed. that aspect of their life. And it's very difficult to get started. on that path once you've been on this. path of complacency and comfort. It's very hard for people to sort of. embrace this new way of thinking and. interfacing with reality. But when things are hard, that's. beautiful. Like that's the beginning. We. want things to be hard. So, the first.

thing is I think we want people to love. the discomfort of being hard. It's hard. [ __ ] great Everything. worthwhile is hard. Right. Like we not What have What have you done. that's that's been interesting that. hasn't been hard? Every time you get in an ice plunge, it's [ __ ] hard. Yeah. Like I cold plunge every day. I think. you do, too, right? Yeah. Yeah, like it's a way of life. It's. [ __ ] hard every time. It's not easy. Hard is beautiful. Living on the other. side of pain That's where things get. valuable. do it. That's hard. That's not good for you. That's not good. If you let that that part of you when.

you're 40 seconds in, you're like, "Let's get the [ __ ] out now." If you let. that part win, you'll feel terrible for. the rest of the day. But if you just. hang in there for 2 minutes and 20. seconds more, Yeah. you'll feel so good. You get out of. there, like, "All right. Got this one. done.". It's like you go foiling and you don't. fall. That's a terrible day, man, cuz. you're not pushing your turns hard. enough. You're not breaching enough. You're not ripping it around hard. enough, right? Like. everyone finds these these It's like one. thing that happens with investors, right? They they become successful, and. then they develop a mental model.

Mhm. to replicate the success, right? So, they figure out a mental model become a. groove that they can follow. Mhm. But then the groove becomes a rut they. get stuck in, and then it starts to. collect water, and then it's stagnant. water, and then they hold to an old. mental model based on a success 10 years. ago or 20 years ago, and they're trapped. in it for the rest of their lives. Yeah. It happens again and again in every. field, right? Some early success creates. You make a framework, you make a. modality, you create a mental model. You. replicate the success. It's not working, but you stick to it because your. identity gets connected to that mental. model. And you're not living with dynamic.

quality. Your qualities become static. Mhm. Yeah, it's it's so hard for people to. recognize when that's happening as well. Cuz, you know, once people get success, then the fear of losing that success. overwhelms them. And then it's sometimes. it's easier to control a person who's. been successful cuz they don't want to. let this go. They don't want to go back. They want to move forward. They want to. continue So, what do I have to do to. make sure that I'm I mean you see this. in Hollywood. It's a It's a big thing in. Hollywood. People panic when they start.

doing well and then they align. themselves with other people doing well. and then they like kind of changes the. way they think and the way they they. behave because everything is dependent. upon you being chosen for for things. So, your your whole life is like. wondering what your social status is and. how you would how you advance that and. how you What do I have to say? What. should I tweet today to make sure. everybody knows I'm on the right side. and. Right, then you're playing not to lose. You're not playing to win. It happens. all the time in sports. Like if you're a. basketball team when you've been. dominating the game and you're up eight. or 10 in the fourth quarter, then you.

start to protect the lead. Yes. No, you didn't get the lead cuz you were. protecting the [ __ ] lead. You were. dominating with aggression. Right? The. moment It's like the prevent defense, in. my opinion, is the worst thing ever. created in sports strategy. Mhm. Right? Like you know, if prevent defense. I've heard of it, but I don't know what. if you're a football team and you're and. you're you've you have a 14-point lead. in the fourth quarter or an eight-point. lead in the fourth quarter. and you stop doing the dominant things. that got you the lead, but you start. protecting the lead. So, your defensive. backs sit back. You start allowing eight. or 10 or 12-yard completions. It is now.

you're protecting the lead versus. dominating the opponent. But then you. let the opponent feel their strength, feel their greatness. They they're not. dominating anymore. They're like you a. moment a fighter stops feeling dominated. and starts to tap into their greatness, then your [ __ ] opponent's a beast. again. Right. Right? We see it all the time. All the time. Right? So, don't protect the [ __ ]. lead. Dominate. Yeah. Right? I I. Do a product Do the dance? Yeah. Exactly. It's just um it's. In life. I think that thing that you're talking. about is very critical. That fear of.

losing once you've won. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting in the surf world. So many people I've observed who are. great surfers, they want to learn to. foil because foiling opens up so much. Right? You can foil all the time in. different conditions, in sloppy. conditions, in ocean, big big waves, small waves. It just is It's so. abundant. And they can see how epic it. is, but then they try once and they get. their ass kicked. Mhm. It doesn't matter how good a surfer. you are. Not saying I want to eat foil, I'm talking about like wave foiling or. not high-performance gear. You're going. to have 2 3 months of ass kicking is.

part of it. It doesn't matter how good. you are as a surfer. But now you have to like be you have to. look like a beginner again. You have to. be go from being like the coolest guy in. the lineup, if you're socialized, to. being the quote-unquote kook, being the. guy who's just getting his ass kicked. and falling all the time. Right? And they don't want to do that. So, their ego of the excellent surfer. prevents them from learning this art. they want to learn. because they're unwilling to look bad. for a while in front of the people who. they're used to looking good with. Right. They're so used to being cool. So, the the foilers are people who it's.

very interesting micro culture inside of. surfing. Is that foilers have been. people who learned how to how to. foil cuz they were willing to get their. ass kicked and look bad. Are there any other things that are. exciting to you like that that you think. of? Like if one day you can't foil any. longer, do you have like an escape strategy? I don't have an escape strategy. I never. did. I never had like this is going to. be plan B. I've never been a plan B guy. I I I know I could recreate myself. Um. but I I love this art profoundly, and I. love being in the ocean. Like there's.

something about this. this is like to me also this is not. about destroying anything, it's not. about beating anybody, it's about. self-discovery, pushing my limits in the. ocean, which is an element. And and the foil taps into ocean energy. so [ __ ] potently. And the other thing. is that the the art. is at such an early stage of. technological growth. The foil gear is progressing so quickly, and the people who are actually at the. bleeding edge of foil performance-wise. can ride this gear, which is. increasingly difficult to ride. But the. hardest gear to ride is the gear which.

is can do the most epic [ __ ]. And so, the sensitivity is like as the. gear requires more and more sensitivity, the sensitivity is is cultivated. And fewer very few people in the world. can can do it on this gear, and it's. just so sublime. So, I'm so [ __ ] in love with this. art. Wow. not have a a plan B. But, you know, [ __ ]. who knows what happens. I love when people love things. Oh, me, too. of my favorite things to watch is people. that are just absolutely engrossed in. what they're doing and fascinated by it. and in love with it and and on the.

journey. It's very addictive. It's very. uh inspirational. It gives you. something. It's like there's there's. something out of watching people and. learning from people that are really. really passionate about something. It's. so contagious. I've never loved an art more. Like, I've. loved arts really [ __ ] deeply in my. life, you know? Foiling is number one. I have never loved an art more. Well, maybe it's cuz I'm I'm I'm at this. moment of life where I'm at and I'm like. integrating everything I've learned from. different arts and bringing it into this. one and this one's manifesting all of. it. But but in terms of like the.

day-to-day experience of it, oh, yeah, man. I'm a lunatic. I [ __ ] just just. love it. Yeah. Yeah, so you can't you have to live by. the ocean. You're foiling. That's that's beautiful. I live right. where the jungle meets the ocean. You were telling me before we wrap this. up, you were telling me about a. crocodile encounter. Oh, yeah. That was before I started um. before I started foiling, I was surfing. Um and I it was like 5:00 a.m. and I was. um. I was flying back to New York that day.

So, I went out for like a just. pre-sunrise, right at sunrise surf and. I was on this glassy like head-high wave. and this um gnarled log came up in front. of me, this piece piece of [ __ ] wood. And I saw it and I hit it and jumped. off. It just emerged right in front of. me. I didn't know how I didn't see it. Like, I thought it was a big tree. And. when I hit the water, my brain was still. thinking log, but my it was so. interesting. My. my my my skin lit up, goosebumps, and I. just realized like like red alert, like. prehistoric danger. And I jump back on.

my board and this like a 10-11-ft croc. came swimming just few few feet away. from me. It was so interesting. Whoa. Cuz I spent my life like I spent a lot. of since I was 6 years old, I've I've. free diving, spearfishing with a. Hawaiian sling, Hawaiian sling, like bow. and arrow underwater, deep deep water. diving. Like I I spent tens of thousands. of sharks, but this was so different. Like croc energy. And I haven't I don't know crocs like I. know sharks. I don't know crocs and. are actively trying to eat you. Sharks a. lot I mean there's a lot of people that. believe that sharks are attacking people.

because the people are where the sharks. are and they don't want the people. there. Yeah. You know, like when they're they're. interfering with their hunting grounds. and they attack people in that regard. I've heard people say that and I'm like, "Ooh, that kind of resonates. That makes. sense." But crocodiles are different. They're just hunting everything. And if you're there, you're on the menu. They're hyper aggressive. They're very. different than alligators, which are. also very dangerous, but crocodiles are. significantly more dangerous and more. aggressive. My It was interesting when I hit the. water, my body lit up like um.

like I was in the water with a dinosaur. And then it came up and it's interesting. that my body This speaks to the nature. of the intuition, right? Cuz my mind. still thought it was a log. I hit the. water, something energetically told me. something, get the [ __ ] out. And then it. came up swimming up next to me. And like the feeling of the snout, the. eyes, like it just came and then a big. another wave was coming in. I. I managed to just pop up and ride the. next wave to the beach. Yeah. Yeah, and maybe if I. That would have been the last day I. foiled.

Well, maybe like if I knew the language. of crocs like I know language of sharks. Murder, kill, eat. That's the language. Maybe there's an internal language. I do not believe that's true. I think they are they are the. waste management of the ocean and of the. ground. I mean they are there to make. sure that anything that slips, anything. that gets too close, anything that [ __ ]. up, that doesn't pay attention to the. ripples in the water, that's a meal. They they clean up. They're the cleaning. crew. They make sure that there's no. weakness in the system and they devour.

and they live forever. That's the crazy thing. It's like the. ones that they spotted in their early. journeys when they were talking about. like there's talks of 40 40-ft plus. crocodiles probably were real because. crocodiles don't die of old age. They. don't have like a 20-year lifespan. They. just keep growing. And if a crocodile. lived before people had guns and you. know, they weren't on the menu and you.

got to imagine they could live hundreds. of years. Hundreds of years eating deer. and wildebeest and anything that [ __ ]. up antelopes anything that [ __ ] up. anything they can get a hold of and they. just keep growing. They. they could be enormous enormous. enormous super predator dinosaurs that. live amongst people. Yeah. I have a friend of mine who's a. professional hunter. Jim Shockey and he was flown to Africa. because this particular Village was.

being targeted by crocodiles. So they. they. hired hunters to hunt these croc and. while he was there he said everyone you. would meet had a chunk taken out of. them. People were missing hands. Some. people were missing feet. And while. while he was there one of the women in. the village got taken. And they would set up these posts in the. water so that the crocodiles couldn't. get through to this one area where they. would gather water and wash clothes and. do things. The crocodiles had figured. this out so they went onto the shore and.

then they would go into the water where. the posts are and wait for them. Oof. Oof. Oof. Yeah. So the feeling of humility and danger. that you have relative to crocs. Yeah. I have about AI relative to. the ability to manipulate humans unless. we take on our ability to be manipulated. as a way of life. Like I feel it like. that much in my skin. I think you're correct. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're correct. I think. it's like going to be an incredibly.

incredibly challenging time in history. And one that I don't think the brightest. amongst us can truly predict the. outcome. I want to make one other point, which is. that I think that when we talk about. like training as decision makers, it. doesn't matter how good you are at. something. It matters that you're on the road. You're on the journey. So, let's just. say people started to play chess. Doesn't matter how strong a chess player. you are, if you're good, or if you suck. That doesn't matter. It's a journey, right? If you're If you're.

If you're putting yourself in any arena. that's objective and you're. trying your hardest and you have a. feedback loop, like the mats, like the. jiu-jitsu mats, like whatever they are. for you. And you. look at the quality of your decisions. and you jot down why and you are willing. to change your mind and you take on that. training as a way of life, then you're. you're on the the road to like being. grounded in in like. in. a way that we're not today. And I think that being grounded in.

reality, in something, like feeling the. earth beneath our feet in our process, is a big part of how we're going to be. able to navigate a world where. everything is being deconstructed all. the time by a superior intelligence cuz. we're going to need to recreate. ourselves, but we have to have You know. how like when you're deep into an art, like think about you with your knowledge. of. of MMA, like you have this intuition. about where the truth is, right? You. have a sense for where it is. Right? We need to cultivate that sense. in in an increasingly chaotic world. And I do feel that that like being. involved in some kind of truth-telling.

arena, whatever it is, is a hugely important practice. um and then taking on the art of. training as a way of life. is um. I feel like it's one of our and and like. that combined with getting the [ __ ] off. social media. Really? Amazing advice. Yeah, that's my. Thank you, Josh. That's my pitch. a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, I was really excited to. do this and uh happy to meet you. So, really appreciate you. Awesome, Jim. Thanks for reaching out,

man. My pleasure. All right. Bye, buddy. Can't find me on social media. Don't. look.