Joe Rogan Experience #2228 - Josh Dubin

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day what's up what's up man good to see. you good to see you uh so I guess we. just get right into it the last case. that we talked about we had uh a very. unfortunate incident happened after the. podcast about a month later yeah uh the.

gentleman beheaded. somebody allegedly yes allegedly there's. a lot of allegedly but yeah there was so. many crazy things to that case the. craziest thing was him uh trying to fool. the security cameras with a wig like I. guess he didn't know how high resolution. cameras had gotten over the 25 years. that he was in. jail I mean apparently there's a lot he. didn't know the only reason I say. allegedly is.

because um I'd be a bit of a hypocrite. if I started calling him guilty um. before he has a trial but of course. based on the surveillance um it doesn't. look good what do they say in Texas it. ain't too. shiny it was so crazy because uh you. know we went out with him that evening. we brought him to the comedy club he was. hanging out with us in the green room. and then the news broke and then uh the. comics were all like hey man what the. [ __ ] what the [ __ ] you doing bringing. that that guy around I'm like well we.

didn't know I I I. mean who could have known he was going. to do that other than. him I'm as I'm as uh I'm as shocked over. it now as I was in the moment I mean. yeah I don't. uh you know there are no words I went. through um it's really not funny I mean. I'm only laughing out of sort of. nervousness I guess and I mean.

I was in I was in St Louis of all. places which is only memorable because. that's where I was when someone called. me and said have you looked at the. news and I said I was in court and I was. on a break and. um you know I called him a miracle on. this show and yeah and the the media. shoved that straight up my ass I mean of. course but that's what they're going to. do well he was the only guy that You'.

ever brought in that was actually guilty. that you felt was in jail for too long. you know he he got a 50-year sentence. correct 70 70 and he was reduced to 25. it was just basically Tomy did about 30. years um and they resentenced him look I. would be. um I've had a lot of time to think about. this and I know you and I have discussed. it privately and I kind of went into a. hole after this um.

my fir this didn't happen to me a lot of. people say I'm so sorry um but some. people have said other things that. weren't very nice but the people that I. you. know regard their opinion were sorry. that it didn't happen to me my first. thought was I had two thoughts was that. poor guy that got. killed um and it was a gruesome murder. you know it wasn't just beheaded I think.

he was dismembered completely well he. was trying to get rid of the body right. allegedly alleged allegedly um and my. first thought was for him and his. family and. then my I think my second and third. thought maybe in tandem. was this tore down 50 years of work that. a lot of people um have fought really.

hard for and really need and I felt like. I let you. down um you know you've given us an. amazing platform to get stories out for. people that really need help I think. we've. made a ton of progress we've got some. exonerations as a direct result of this. yeah you didn't let me down at all no. didn't I I I appreciate that you felt. like that it didn't feel like that to me. at all it was just listen there's a. reality of prison life there's a reality.

of being incarcerated there's a reality. of taking a person who's convicted of a. violent crime and putting him in jail. with violent people for 30 years was. just a reality and you know I don't know. what history he had with this man that. he allegedly killed um. but you know it's like you can only take. so. much yeah I mean listen I don't know my. first emotion this is for me and my. therapist my first emotion is usually.

like guilt so I once I I took a little. bit of time and thought it. through. um I mean of course I come on your show. and then you're you know splattered all. over the news for something not positive. good news is I don't watch the news and. I don't pay attention and I don't listen. to anything anybody writes about me so. it didn't bother me at all you're rare. so look for me um I have to take a hard. look at what I'm doing.

and um take the mirror out and look. straight in it and say like what did I. do wrong did nothing wrong well well I. don't think you did anything wrong you. just you just listen the man had great. qualities he like when you talk to him. he's very intelligent very nice guy he. just thought he could get away with. getting payback on somebody yeah look. that's super gracious of you I'm not. whether I did something wrong or not I I. typically go to blame um and that's. something that I have to that's a think. I have to work out in my personality but.

let let me just articulate it because I. think what. I the platform is so important to me and. getting these stories out is so. important to me and I think that where. I've. landed is. that he didn't let me. down he didn't let look I was the public. face of his resentencing there was a lot. of great people involved and it wasn't. just from the defense side the center. for appell at litigation had some.

amazing people working on his case the. district attorney of Manhattan agreed to. this so on paper um even in their. personal interactions with him there was. nothing that raised a red flag for. anyone he didn't. let anyone down if he did this which it. people will draw their own conclusion. he'll have a trial he didn't let anyone. down if he did this but himself and the. people that still need help and I have. to swallow the jet Ed pill that um this.

work comes with some. letdowns um the recidivism rate for. people that have served long sentences. like that is less than. 1% it just happened to happened on a. case where I was involved I have no is. it really that low yeah wow yeah if you. look at exonerations resentencing of. people that have been incarcerated for. more than 20 years it's that low and and.

you know. the the harsh reality is that if you put. someone on a public. platform and they then do what he. supposedly did it's going to make. headlines I realized something though. that. um look no one could have imagine what's. in the dark recesses of that man's Soul. whether it's you know his group home.

upbringing and abuse the prison. experience it's not to make an excuse he. did it if he did it if he's convicted. and he did it that's on him what I'm. guilty of is giving a guy a second. chance and I I am. I'm why am I reluctant to say this I. can't apologize for giving someone a. second chance and then you know they. squander it all I can do is say what. could I have done better I mean I have a. deep understanding I think.

of what incarceration means I mean I. read this book um I always get his name. confused is Henry Jack Abbot or Jack. Henry Abbott it's called in the belly of. the beast when I was in college and it's. a series of letters that this inmate. wrote to Norman maor it's a fascinating. book. and about what incarceration does to. somebody from the standpoint of um the. Practical day-to-day from the deep.

psychosis inducing confinement and. everything else and two days before the. book was. released um and it was reviewed by the. New York Times the guy snapped and. killed someone in the East. Village and um no one will know what it. is like to be in there and again I don't. want to offer this as an excuse but what. it has caused me to do is reevaluate and. say look maybe I need to take a much. closer look at what sort of mental.

health counseling these folks are. getting like. Sheldon I arranged for him to be. speaking to a trauma. therapist should I have been on him more. to be going to those appointments. maybe um what was the circumstances with. the the guy that he allegedly. killed I don't know if I'm doing it just. because I'm distancing myself from it. subconsciously but I don't know all the.

circumstances but apparently this was. someone he knew from childhood and from. in prison I've heard rumors and you know. stories about the guy um threatened his. son. to um he slashed Sheldon when they were. in prison I don't know if you remember. Sheldon had this big gash across his. face um but I don't know and I I frankly. don't want want to know at this point.

because someone lost their life and that. you know I think unfortunately for my. mental health I just wear that stuff you. know if I felt even remotely responsible. for that which I do and you know I have. to I can I can be at peace with it but I. didn't cause that death and I don't you. know I can take some responsibility for. it in the sense that what could I do. going forward um where whether it's.

people that are being exonerated for. crimes they didn't commit or if it's. people that are getting resentenced you. cannot undo Decades of confinement you. just can't and they all need mental. health counseling all of them and I have. to put that on my shoulders I just do. because you know they all have issues. and they come out and need mental health. counseling and there's a stigma attached. to it especially in the African-American. community and there shouldn't be it's no.

different than if you have a problem. with your liver you know and you have to. take medication I mean I've always been. upfront about the fact that I'm on. medication it's it's nothing to be. ashamed of and it's especially warranted. when you're in those circumstances again. none of this is to make an excuse but I. just think that there's a lot more. emphasis that I can focus on um. assimilation more and I think that. making sure that they have job training. and that they feel safe when they get. out out I mean there hasn't been one.

person who I've been involved in their. case. where even even when they're innocent. they get out and it's a [ __ ] shock. and I need to be um a lot more sensitive. to that I think and pay a lot more. attention to what they're doing how. they're doing again I had I had the. foresight to put Sheldon in touch with. and ensure that we. were getting him mental health.

counseling with a trauma therapist but I. you know I didn't want to meddle too. much in that because it's on him to go. so I. mean that's where I land. um For Better or For Worse well if the. guy really did Slash his face if you've. been in literal Mortal Combat with a. person and this person is allegely. threatening your son or whatever you. know there's only so much you can do to. stop a person from.

seeking. Revenge I guess especially if they don't. have any hope outside of the system and. they they've been completely. institutionalized which given the length. of his sentence is reasonable to assume. yeah you're you're a lot more forgiving. and understanding than um than a lot of. people were and have been about this you. know I've had there's been two schools. of thought and the reaction I mean I got.

pretty nasty hate. mail um and I got a lot of words of. encouragement I think the hate mail. outweighed the words of encouragement. always but psychologically always I mean. by in in substance number and probably. psychologically yeah um but. um that [ __ ] just gives me fuel you know. if you're sending me [ __ ] you you race. baiter you this you that you know. oh yeah I got a lot of that how are you.

a race um by telling the truth about the. state of race and the criminal justice. system in this country I I you see the. thing is the one the one force field I. have around myself is when that's. incoming I I'm able to say okay thanks. for the fuel thanks for the fuel I'll. never respond to it um you know unless. you're doing mental health Counseling in. a prison unless you're a corrections. officer a police officer. um know what it's like to be.

incarcerated you have no [ __ ]. business giving me your shitty opinion. about what you think I am or others that. do this work get in the [ __ ] Arena. and do it yourself and I you know so I I. take that with a big grain of salt um I. had. um you know I have enough common sense. and practical sense to sort of let to. disregard guard that but I have to be a.

big enough person to look at myself and. say what can I learn from this and what. could I do better because you know I was. talking to Derek Hamilton who's been on. the show and the the deputy director of. the the freedom clinic at the Pearl. mutter Center and you know Derek said. look. um mental health counseling when I was. incarcerated was something that was. like it it flew in the face of the US. versus them mentality I didn't think.

they could help me MH and I didn't want. to want the help I was mad and there was. a stigma attached to it that I was soft. if I did it I didn't want people in. inside. knowing um. so I don't. um we're trying to formulate a plan to. normalize mental health Counseling in. prison so Derek and I are doing a town. hall at shuang gang which is a pretty. off prison in New York on December 6th.

to try to get some of the inmates to. understand that it's okay to ask for. this help I think when they see Derek. and hear his story it's um it's helpful. for them so I'm going to say something. that's going to sound pretty. controversial but I think you know one. of the uh one of the conversations that. I've had uh repeatedly I had it with JD. Vance I've had it with quite a few. people is psychedelic therapy for. veterans.

um people with severe PTSD because of. War I think are the most deserving of. psychedelic therapy and the benefits of. it and the fact that that stuff is. schedule one and is illegal in the. United States I think is absurd it's. ridiculous it's horrible it's a a. massive disservice to those people that. put their lives on the line and went. over and experienced horrific things. that the average person like myself can. only imagine and you're not going to do. a good job of imagining it I think. prisoners could benefit from psychedelic.

therapy as well I think there's a lot of. people that could be rehabilitated by. changing the way they they view things. literally changing their mind changing. their perspective and I think there's a. lot of psychedelic therapies that could. Aid in that particularly for people. who you know they're not violent people. um they're they just had they're victim. of circumstance or they made bad. decisions in their life or what have you. and they're stuck and they're stuck both.

mentally and physically and if we want. to use prisons as just a deterrent to. Crime okay I think we should probably. put some effort towards Rehabilitation. you know sincere significant efforts. towards Rehabilitation and one of the. best ways to do that is to try try to. change the way people view themselves. and view the world and view themselves. as a part of the world. the fact that you would even think that.

that would be controversial I think is. just a a byproduct of the fact that. anything. that somebody articulates that's outside. of like what's considered mainstream is. rejected. unquestionably the research is. overwhelming over that psychedelics are. one of the best um one of the best most. effective um therapies for PTSD my.

therapist has um you know counseled. people with PTSD coming back from war. and you know has has espoused the the. not only the efficacy of it but how. remarkably um different it is from. conventional Therapies in the most. positive of ways and I could not agree. with you more. I think that if you look at some of the.

European countries that look at their. prison systems as a real rehabilitative. model I mean we have to decide that we. we incar we talked about the stats and. I'm not um going to you know relitigate. that here but look we incarcerate people. at a higher rate than any other. civilization on. Earth so we have to decide as a society. are we just going to throw people away. and put them in cages and make them. worse even if they committed the crime.

or as you said are we really going to. try to rehabilitate people because some. people are getting out no matter what. whether they have people like me. involved and other great people that do. this work um but they're going to get. out do you want them out be like they. were just an animal let out of a cage or. do you want them out where. Rehabilitation is a Cornerstone of their. incarceration right and it just doesn't. happen in our Criminal Justice System.

well there's a bizarre attitude in this. country that we shouldn't do anything to. make their life better while they're in. there you know and that something like. psychedelic therapy is. like that it's a luxury you know that. it's uh something they don't deserve. that it's um something that should be. reserved for good people or or some or. that there's some like um it's for. people that are like [ __ ] off and you.

know the others that do drugs that whole. mentality sure yeah there's that too so. yeah I listen I. mean we talk about like looking up at. the mountain and saying can I scale it I. think what you have to do and I'm. talking about this all it takes is one. state one municipality one person who. says that's interesting show us the. literature we have this amazing policy. director. at the promot center named Sarah Chu and.

she's in the trenches having these. arguments having these fights trying to. get forensic Labs um you know ensuring. that they have the proper training. accreditation so that they're not. introducing you know various forms of. junk science all it takes is just the. effort going forward to try to start. pushing that Boulder uphill or else you. know again this goes to um.

you know the incoming hatred in a. situation like we had here is like what. the [ __ ] are you doing to help try to. make the situation better because just. calling names and pointing fingers and. saying you [ __ ] up or this person that. we threw away is not worth saving listen. everybody has made some mistake that. they wish other people didn't know. about you know and it's not always.

homicide obviously but a lot of people. have done something that but for the. grace of God go ey right um where if. somebody was looking if law enforcement. was looking it could be you that was. there and would you want a second chance. would you want Redemption would you want. the help to overcome whatever demons and. I I just think why psychedelics are. you know looked at um ketamine the the.

little bit that I did going through a. dark time it uh it almost snapped me in. a different direction yeah and I mean I. you know you urged me on to it I mean. you were the one that said you should. really think about this and my. therapists urged me on to it and I think. you know so I know that the literature. is there it's just we have to get past. this.

whole um it's so weird that you mention. that I was talking to a guy on the plane. on the way down who was tell asked me um. if marijuana legalization passed in. Florida um because I was so we were. talking about you know where you from. this and that and he was telling me that. um and he was from Colorado and he told. me. that you know in Colorado when marijuana.

was legalized that there was this whole. um movement of people that were saying. that it would be a gateway drug and that. it was going to lead people down this. slippery slope to doing other hardcore. drugs and he said you know the gulf. between smoking weed and turning into a. meth addict doesn't exist he said that. the bridge between the two doesn't exist. and and if you start walking marijuana.

use and trying to link it to um drugs. that the US government considers a. problem the link just isn't there right. so I mean I you know he was sort of. trying to explain to me how he didn't. understand how marijuana is any. different than alcohol and I said well. go tell that to the state legisl in. Florida I don't know what to tell you. did it not pass in Florida it got it 58%. um and it needed 60% really yeah I don't.

get that I just don't get I and why. would it's [ __ ] more than half the. people that should be it why did it need. 60% that was the same thing with um you. know the amendment on abortion it needed. 60% maybe it was the abortion one that. got 58% I might be wrong about that but. in any event I don't um I don't. understand. the the um resistance to psychedelics as.

a therapeutic both in mainstream Society. let alone in the prison system well it. all goes back to 1970 it all go back is. it all goes back to the Nixon. Administration the sweeping psychedelics. Act of 1970 that turned everything. schedule one that was designed to it was. designed to [ __ ] the civil rights. movement and the anti-war movement that. that's what it was about it was about. having new tools to uh imprison Rison. people that were uh anti-war that were.

protesting the war the Black Panthers uh. civil rights organizations all these. people that were doing drugs you know. that were using psychedelics to try to. achieve a different state of. consciousness and that brought them to. these ideas that we're all one and that. war is evil and that the United States. government is being controlled by the. military-industrial complex and that. this is uh a a giant problem in our. culture you know but. people were so weirded out by the.

Timothy L's and you know the the whole. TuneIn uh you know turn out whatever the. [ __ ] his motto was drop out this whole. thing of leaving polite society and. being a loser and just like traveling. around and doing drugs in a van like. this is this was like the the the. perspective that people had that was. going to take their kids and turn them. into nerdowells and turn them into. losers. and that we were going to have a society.

filled with uh people that didn't. understand the ethics of hard work and. what made America great and all all this. [ __ ]. well look what's born out of that is. this. um you. know Mis understanding I guess is the. best way to put it um ignorance well. it's propaganda. of propaganda well look also if you.

think about like coin Intel Pro um you. know all of a sudden you're spying on. people that you think are others you're. um. legalizing that um intelligence. gathering that allows you to start. violating people's civil liberties so. that you can gain Intelligence on them. because the way they think is UN like. you right so you know it's the again.

sort of to me um all ties back to this. very I guess tribal mentality that. you're either like us or you're like. them right and everything that you. mentioned the psychedelics ACT um the. resistance to the Civil Rights Movement. it was all based on the fact that look. where we have a a potential Uprising. here of people that are going to. challenge the way we think the way we do. things so for people that call me a race.

baiter right I you know I feel like I'm. more of a truth teller and just taking. the thread through history and you know. I I have at least I'll read and try to. educate myself and get perspective um if. if it wasn't a fact that brown and black. men and women get incarcerated at a. higher. rate I wouldn't be talking about it and. I'm just talking about facts so I think.

that it's just this um tribal. misconception about these are drugs and. they're bad versus you sit and speak to. someone and take some you. know phalic form of therapy that has. probably way worse side effects can be. addictive and can lead to a whole host. of other issues that you have to take. something else to address versus just.

being having the openness to take a look. at a different way to potentially help. someone so I don't understand it and the. only thing that that I can do is just to. keep on being. open-minded and you know try to figure. out if there's other ways that we can. convince the people that are in these um. penitentiaries and that run them to. allow programs. that at least give you a crack in the.

door to get in well I think the way the. doorway to that is to first show the. effectiveness uh with veterans and uh. with other people that aren't. incarcerated and that once that gets. established and once that becomes. something I think it's much much more. established now than it was when I first. started talking about this stuff 20. years ago you know um like probably when. I've had my first experiences was a. little more than 20 years ago I think.

people had this very ignorant idea that. was born out of propaganda because you. have to think 20 years ago it was only. 30 years removed from the sweeping. psychedelics act so you're dealing with. uh a whole society that's. been just programmed by Propaganda and. lies and that prop those propaganda and. lies were established in order to. villainize this one group of the. population that was completely changing. the culture the difference in the United.

States culture from. 1965 to 1955 to 1965 was so dramatic it. was such an enormous shift you know then. you have the Vietnam War the protests. all these things that were happening in. the 60s the music everything was. changing so radically and so drastically. that the people in power had a. very like an accurate sense that they. were losing control and that change was.

inevitable and they threw water on it. and they did a great job if you look at. it from that perspective the difference. between me it's terrible what they did. but it was effective in that from 197 a. great job of throwing water on it yeah a. great job of changing culture which was. changing in a in a potentially. beneficial way for everyone to get us to. recognize that we we truly are all one. and that the way to make things better. for everyone is to make things better.

for the most. disadvantaged and this was the Civil. Rights Movement right and this was the. anti-war movement this was uh this was. recognizing that people are being taken. advantage by the military industrial. complex and just sent overseas so that. they could profit hey man I I. uh the first guy that I met that really. like um changed my perspective on. on the world especially in terms of what.

what I could potentially do as a lawyer. was Jerry lecourt Jerry lecourt was Abby. Hoffman's lawyer he was the lead. attorney in the panther 21 trial I was. like a kid I was in my late. 20s and I was met with him to help him. pick a jury on a case and I had read. about him before and he saw something in. me we hit it off he became like my uh.

like my surrogate uncle and he would. regail me with Tales of his um of the. panther 21 trial and here's a guy that. was kind of winging it in his late 20s. and can feel the change that you're. talking about happening and he could. feel the weight against him the push. back coming from the other side where he. would get death threats he would get um.

bomb threats at his office where he. could not even see his client in jail. approaching trial and had to get on a. cherry picker in in outside the jail to. be able to get even with the window so. that they could communicate Jesus Christ. so Jerry left court um and he by the way. got a full acqu in the panther 21 trial. against all. he was the first person that told me.

about coin Andel Pro and what the go the. lengths that the government will go to. um when they feel like their message. their um way of doing things is being. challenged and I think that you hit the. nail right on the head which is this was. like a flew in the face of of um Leave. it to Beaver it flew in the face of you. know. Father Knows Best it flew in the face of.

what White America was trying to instill. as a value system that should be. followed by all people without question. for all time and people started to say. what the [ __ ] is this about right I want. to explore the. messiness and the um the gray areas of. what it means to exist as a human being. right and that expression. um whether it was Richard Nixon or the.

people around him that got their backs. up um you know so if you are a student. of history and um you start to. understand sort of why we're here rather. than just looking here and forward I. think these things for me are a little. bit easier to understand um when. somebody comes at me and calls me a race. biter for the work that I do because I. talk about the problem of race I.

understand that that's born out of. ignorance and I don't mean ignorance. like you're a dummy I mean ignorance. like you're you're not you don't have. access to the information yeah or or you. chose not to have access to it yeah your. perspective is incorrect read T coats's. book between the world and me it's a. fascinating [ __ ] tale it's a letter. written from this you know black man to. his 15-year-old son and. and it is um it's a life aldering book.

for me because it puts you into his soul. of what it has been like to grow up as a. black man in this country and. um it it it stops me in my tracks when I. think about it when I talk about it. because it's like the only way that we. can get to a more common understanding. is to you know I think to read books. like that and to talk to people and if. you're so closed off and close-minded. and again I I keep on sort of adding.

this disclaimer and maybe this is my my. aversion to like getting attacked I am. not excusing if Sheldon did this I just. think that um it's not so simple as oh. you let some guy you help some guy get. out and get resentenced and look what he. did and [ __ ] all these people and [ __ ]. your movement okay you're entitle to. that. opinion that's where I leave it yeah you. can't listen to those people you just. you know what you're doing you're smart. you can't listen well it's just you're.

going to have those people they're. always going to exist there's always. going to be people with um limited. information perspective you know and. limited information people sometimes are. the loudest and uh the most vocal about. it and and also the ones who are least. willing to objectively assess how they. came to the conclusions that they're so. vocal and loud about you know limited. information people that's a it's a big I. mean that's why um clickbait headlines.

work well look I mean love that [ __ ]. that's why you get attacked sometimes by. you. know you don't know about it because you. don't read it but that's why you get. attacked Sometimes some people try to. send it to me it's funny I hey man [ __ ]. off stop sending me that [ __ ] you know. someone someone in my family um a cousin. of mine sent. me um a link to a story. about you endorsing Trump and.

wrote what the [ __ ] and I said right. what the [ __ ] why are you sending this. to me like first of. all what the. [ __ ] what the [ __ ] are you what you're. because you all of a sudden support this. woman who by the way probably should. have accepted the invitation to come on. the show it might have been the. difference between people getting to. actually know who the [ __ ] she was but. putting that aside it's like I have to.

do a much better job of filtering that. stuff out because the notion that um you. know you. um are going to be influenced by outside. forces other than what you're doing like. for you to say you know what you're. doing I like to think I know what I'm. doing and I feel like I'm doing good. things and I just got to keep on working. in that direction not let what Happ and. Slow Me Down try to learn from it and go.

forward look I don't want this to come. across as like. constantly. um. uh being like. uh situation where I'm every time I get. on here I thank you but I think the. importance of this. forum was was made clear by having the. president on by having the vice. president on because it's the only open. Forum where you don't have to worry.

about being judged. about um someone chopping up what you. say and twisting it or leaving some. remarks on The Cutting Room floor and it. it's it's also important because you. don't give a [ __ ] about. what other people say or think and you. just do what you feel is the right thing. to do because I've I mean I've told you. privately I'll say it now again it would. have been the E the easy thing for you. to do would have been to say well [ __ ].

this guy I'm turning my back I don't. need to have him on again it was never. going to happen yeah W listen what. you've done is amazing and the people. that you uh have brought on the show. have changed a lot of people's. perspectives about our justice system a. lot of people you've brought on some. incredible people and you've told some. incredible stories and and as you said. people have been exonerated for crimes. that they didn't commit if you are a. person who's listening to this and you. had you could be [ __ ] by the system.

it's possible you could be trapped by a. corrupt prosecutor it happens thank God. it hasn't happened to you but if it did. happen to you you would pray that. there's a Josh Dubin in the world that. pays attention to your case you know I. appreciate it and I mean I don't it's. not just me there's a there's a v people. there is but a person like you yeah you. know and I think highlighting that and. highlighting the need for that and an. understanding of how the system can.

railroad you and the system can really. [ __ ] you over I think one of the things. that we saw during the the Trump uh. campaign was the legal system being used. against one of the most powerful people. in the world and how they can get away. with turning 34 misdemeanors essentially. one misdemeanor but 34 versions of it 34. writing in a ledger incorrectly that's a. Mystic demeanor and is pass the statute. of limitations can be converted into a.

felony and turned against a guy who's. running for president as lawfare it's. just completely using the legal system. to try to attack a guy and try to take. him out of the race and also try to. label him a convicted felon so once you. have this label a convicted felon you. you heard it on all the talk shows. convicted felon convicted felon but. enough people had a chance to look at. the circumstances of the case and and.

understand what was actually what he was. actually being tried for paying someone. off to not talk about how he [ __ ] them. is that what we're worried about or are. we worried about World War III is that. what we're worried about are we worried. about terrorist cells like being. established in the United States because. our border is wide open is that are we. worried about the price of groceries and. people being able to feed themselves. that's what we should be [ __ ] worried. about not whether or not some guy [ __ ]. someone like who cares it's so it's so. um interesting to me because the. conversations that people in the legal.

community in New York were having at the. time I cannot tell you how many. times didn't matter what side of the. spectrum you were on politically but in. New York there's a lot of [ __ ]. Democrats and I can't tell you how often. I got this. call what is the crime here what I mean. with regard to that particular case. first of all the da Manhattan seem to um. realized that it was a feudal Endeavor. to go after this guy and retreated and.

then something happened and the you. remember the the special prosecutors. quit because they were Furious. apparently that the da wouldn't go. forward with the case then um something. happens in between and Alvin Bragg the. district attorney of Manhattan proceeds. with the case so many legal Scholars. said what is the crime here I understand. there's a series of misdemeanors that.

somehow gets flipped into a felony legal. Scholars that had issues with it and if. they spoke about it publicly they were. attacked right Alan dtz was one of them. he was attacked anyone that would speak. out and there's this fear for good legal. Minds to get behind defending a case. like that because it's viewed in um. Democratic strongholds like Kryptonite. right um. so you mean remarking on that case yeah.

it was weaponized against him and that's. why I think it was this morning the. judge in that case agreed to a joint. motion by the prosecution and the. defense to put everything on hold. because they're deciding whether or not. they're going to dismiss that case and. if you. remember the the drum that was. constantly beat before this election was. he'll never get out of these State cases. the federal ones we understand because. he can pardon himself but the state.

cases oh those are going to be a problem. well not so fast right because now if it. was that much of a a a crime and that. people were so up in arms about it why. are they now considering dismissing it. and I think that the the it puts the the. lie to the notion that this was really. something that we wanted to make an. example out of and you can't engage in. this type of conduct what conduct you. know it was obviously politically. motivated and you know and it happens.

all over the country it happens all over. the country on both sides of the aisle. though um we have I have a case right. now that and for me to be able to say. this is probably um you. know I had to think is this is this the. craziest [ __ ] case I've had and and. it has to be it has to be um um because. the da that is sitting in Judgment of.

whether or not these four men that I'm. going to tell you about in a. moment right before the. election for him to become da gets. indicted he gets indicted. for allegedly like harassing a former. employee and then trying to bribe her. not to file a complaint against him. something like that right before the. election and all of a.

sudden he is now embroiled in this he. loses the election a couple of weeks. ago and he is now finds himself wrongful. according to him wrongfully accused of a. crime he didn't commit well my. client um is a name guy by the name of. John. Edwards and there were four guys this is. an Lorraine Ohio Lorraine County Ohio.

it's John Edwards lenworth Edwards. Benson Davis and a guy named Al. Cleveland New York guys um in the early. 90s who were selling drugs in. Ohio they were going back and forth from. Ohio to New. York. and one morning um a man by the name of. eps is found found dead in the. street his.

roommate is found about 7 hours later. woman named Marsha Blakeley um dumped in. an. alley um behind the shopping. center the case is cold for a month the. police have hit dead ends they have. nowhere to go with the. case the prosecutor's office offers a. $2,000 reward for anyone with.

information about the. case wouldn't you know that the next day. A Man by the name of William Avery Senor. walks in to the Lorraine County. prosecutor's office they sit him down. with the police and he says I have. information about the case now this guy. William Avery Senor was a known. informant the police knew him he had. come and tried to give information about. other cases. didn't pan out he was also a drug addict.

and they sit with him for over an hour. and they say to him everything you're. telling us has been in the papers so. you're not giving us anything new here. he shows up the next day with his son. William Avery. Jr and he says he witnessed the. murder so William Avery Jr talks to the. police and at the end of that. interview he goes what about the reward.

money and the officer says let's turn. the tape recorder off and let's talk. about. that they tell him we're not giving you. the reward money because now you're. telling. us. that information that's been in the. papers and all you're telling us is that. you saw Marsha Blakeley assaulted in an. apartment you're not telling us anything. about the murder. the very next day he shows up and says.

that Al Cleveland told him that he. murdered Marshall Blakeley so let's put. a bookmark in it because I decided I. wanted to do something a little bit. different. today um at the end of the episode I'm. GNA give you a Twitter. account I've submitted. today a 40-page. submission all of the exhibits that are.

mentioned in that. submission to the line County prosecutor. his name is JD. Tomlinson so now I'm going to invite the. public before you go writing a letter to. him or calling him you read the. submission and look at the exhibits. yourself because what often happens is. that in these. reinvestigations Prosecutor's offices. have something called a conviction. Integrity unit where they say they'll. reinvestigate the.

case and the very first thing they make. you do is sign a no media agreement that. you won't go to the media because the. last thing they want you to do is what I. just did is to talk about the case. publicly so we're not in a conviction. Integrity unit we're trying to appeal to. a prosecutor JD Tomlinson who from what. I understand is told Al Cleveland's wife. because I've spoken to her her name was. Roberta. great woman came up to her in the summer.

at a barbecue and said when I was a law. student I sat in on your husband's. trial and it always bothered me and I. want you to come in and have your. lawyers come in I'm going to do the. right thing and now that he's been. indicted he has gone silent I haven't. heard from him I've texted him I see he. reads my messages because he has read. receipts on and I guess he doesn't know. that. um and I've asked him for his time I. think in his Wildest Dreams he probably.

never could have imagined that the case. was going to now become national news um. he has between now and December 31st to. do the right thing and exonerate them. the incoming da would never do it I. don't think from what I've heard so I'm. going to invite the public and I'll give. you the link at the end and I want to. tell you the rest of the story um. because some of the things I tell you. you're going to say come on that can't. be true so I have the exhibits sitting. in a folder for everybody to read but.

um you know the I think that the justice. system has been weaponized against JD. Tomlinson because he was coming up for a. reelection there's all sorts of like. personal animosity between him and the. guy that just got elected there's. allegations at least that the guy that. just got elected helped the you know was. somehow involved in. um you know getting him indicted by a.

special prosecutor I don't know if it's. true or not but it doesn't just happen. on the big National stage it happens all. over the place and you just don't always. hear about it well I think the fact that. it happened on the big National stage. the way it did and not just the case of. the hush money but also the case of uh. Mara Lago being overvalued which is. preposterous that was one of the most. ridiculous ones they they listed it what. 17 $18 million I would buy five of those.

if they were available for $18 million. you know how much money you would make. for that kind of property you you ever. been to this place no it's I've been. there a bunch I've seen it it's [ __ ]. it's magnificent yeah you walk in there. and you feel like you know Marjorie post. bought it and had it design it's. magnificent Forbes I think had valued it. between 7900 million is that true find. out what what the valuation was but like.

independently before all this [ __ ] it. had been valued and I think Trump valued. it over a billion which of course he's. going to do and he's doing it to the. bank right trying to get a loan paid the. loan off with interest everything was. fine nobody there's zero victims. involved in this and the fact that they. want to say that it was actually so what. does it say here okay 350 okay so the. club had revenues of 25.1 million for. the calendar year of 2017 22 in 2018 and.

21 in 2019 20122 2022 Forbes estimated. the value of the estate around $350. million I think Trump jacked it way. higher than that and I think I've read. somewhere that someone had said between. seven and nine if you could like what a. real estate evaluation would be like. what it's actually worth in the state. that it's at I think there was an issue. though that it it was uh wasn't it like. listed as a National Historic Landmark. or something like that Jamie right so.

then you really can't do anything to it. which devalues it somewhat but still I. would think listen 18 million is [ __ ]. crazy there's no property like that. anywhere um you feel like you're in. Europe when you're there um it is it is. a magnificent place and has some of the. best food in Florida um so I don't and I. don't know that part of the valuation of. something like that seems to me to be a. bit subjective it's now the home um of.

the sitting two-time president of the. United States um so yeah but putting all. that aside just their real estate alone. there was a there was a lot that was. sold next to it or a home that was sold. next to it that was $50 million and they. it's not just Mara Lago across the. street they have the beach club that. sits right on the beach but the point is. is that they're meddling into look the. bank could have said well we're going to. send an appraiser out there and we're. going to determine whether or not we.

agree with you that it's worth that that. happens for anyone that's ever sold a. home so yeah the point is there's no. victim the point is like there it's not. like he got this loan and then defrauded. the bank and then defaulted on his loan. and then pocketed the money no no he. paid everything back with interest it. was profitable for the bank everything. worked out it's like this is a [ __ ]. case everyone knows it's a [ __ ] case. so that's another one that was in the. news that everybody got a chance to see. well hopefully hopefully it opens.

people's eyes look there's a lot of. white collar crimes that I've been um a. defense lawyer on um where you see the. human cost of a. prosecution what it does to the person. accused but also their. family and to somehow crawl out from. under the weight of the the federal. government these these take years and a. fortune to defend and often times you're.

thinking why did they bring this case um. what who are the victims here and they. come up with some loss calculation. that's very theoretical I'm talking. about cases where you can't point to a. victim that lost. money and. um you know you wonder why some. prosecutions are brought and others. aren't and and you see again what it. does to not only devastate families and.

the accused but is it really deterring. anyone I would never ever enter an. industry where I was working with stocks. bonds Commodities anything that was. regulated in any way by finra the SEC. because they'll oh it seems like they. can make a case sometimes when there. isn't a case to be made and hopefully. you know regardless of what side the. political Spectrum you're on what.

happened to Trump should be eye. openening to people because you don't. have to agree with him or his politics. or his policies to see what's happening. today as we sit here when everything's. being reconsidered and and you think. about the massive. expense that. um it takes to prosecute these cases. that guy has I don't care what anybody. says about him he's got got to be one of. the toughest [ __ ] you've ever. met to stare down all of this and most.

people would be in a. puddle um to stare down these. prosecutions and the threat of going to. jail and everything else that breaks a. lot of people yeah um and then two. assassination. attempts yeah Jesus Christ he's built. he's built different yeah he is I mean. the guy's 78 years old and I talked to. him for 3 hours and he didn't pee before. he didn't pee after W just sat here. talked didn't lose any energy and then.

flew off to do a campaign rally yeah. listen I hope I wish him all the success. in the world I hope he does well I I got. these um well you can't vote for Cala. Harris after what you've said about it. are you're. right I voted for Jill Stein because. this two-party system to me is [ __ ]. you know you got to like you got to be. with us or them and then there's all. kinds of gaslighting that goes on. you people just should be choices but.

certainly should be that's a. different you know you spoke on the. podcast about her history as a. prosecutor and what she had done and uh. I know they contacted you afterward. after that yeah I mean what was. happening well this was way back yeah um. when I think it was days before she was. selected to be the um vice presidential. running mate for Biden but um I think it. was. Carpenter who was is that his name he's.

a great Congressman um he Wass an eye. patch I don't know oh Dan crenchaw Dan. crenchaw not Carpenter Dan crenchaw took. a clip from the podcast and was. circulating it on Twitter um and it was. of me being critical of her and you know. and again that's a situation where she. had so many opportunities during this. campaign to just say listen. I obvious I watched a little vignette. about this family who was prosecuted for.

their. Trent child and it ruined. them um so all of this I'm a prosecutor. and I'm going to prosecute the case. against this that that petrified me. because I have sat in rooms with. prosecutors that just want to be right. and win and I would just say please just. open your mind a little bit I was just I. just sat in a room with a conviction.

Integrity unit and there were. prosecutors in the. room where and I'm I I'm can't I sign. one of those agreements so I can't name. the case or the city or the burrow um. but where the the prosecutor went to. federal prison for bribing. Witnesses and is accused of the same. conduct in this case case where he was. giving money to someone who has recanted. their.

testimony and the prosecutor sitting in. the room were like it wasn't that they. weren't open-minded they had their mind. made up before we got in there and you. feel like saying can't you just listen. just listen they just want to win yeah. and I think that that that is my problem. with the two-party system is that it's. you're either on this side or you're on. this side and there's no room for gray. area between the issues right um I have. I have a friend who I mean I I learned.

so much during this election I have a. friend who is from Central America and. um she was telling me I I didn't when. Trump won the first time I was Furious I. couldn't stand the guy um but when I. came to this country I saw my mom fight. for. citizenship and I saw what she had to go. through the right way for me to get. citizenship and she said so I just can't. vote for anybody but. him so everybody has their own reasons.

for doing it it doesn't mean it has to. be all about a cult of personality and. you're voting for you're endorsing. everything about the person and I think. that you know having that understanding. that you know look a lot of people that. I spoke to a friend of mine the other. day that grandparents you know were in. the Holocaust his grandfather survived. the Holocaust and he voted for Trump. because he's like I didn't feel. protected by the other side you know as. as those grandson of people that went.

through that so yeah I just think that. um watching a system get weaponized. against someone in that in that way it's. so it's upsetting and hopefully like you. said it opens people's eyes to the fact. that if they could do it to the. president yeah it could happen to you. and it's so transparent it was so. transparent it wasn't like he committed. a murder there's a lot of evidence. pointing to the fact that he committed. this murder no it was just a crime that. didn't make any sense you're going to.

spend millions and millions of dollars. Prosecuting this crime you're going to. parade it around for the whole world. just so the Democrats can have this. talking point convicted felon and you. just see it repeated over and over again. on MSNBC and CNN these pundits want to. say convicted felon they want to say. that like what's the [ __ ] crime tell. me what the crime is but when you you. want to get smart and and spout off. facts why don't you tell me about the. case because I've looked at it and it's. [ __ ] bananas and if it happened to.

you you'd be terrified because they just. made a crime they made a felony out of. something that's not a. felony I mean. listen the. um if you're looking for logic and. reasoning in any of these you're not. going to find it I mean listen I feel. terrible but I feel different about some. of the cases like I feel like the. you know the election case is had has.

the most substance to it you know. standing up and saying the elections rig. the elections rig I have a problem with. that but you know obviously more than. half the country didn't have as much of. a problem with it and well that was one. of the ones that I said was the weirdest. where he didn't have an answer ready. that you should have an answer ready. right away and if I if I had been. accused of something that like that and. I strongly believed the elections were. rigged I'd be able to give you facts. right away but he can't well who his.

facts Rudy Giuliani and and my pillow. well that's the thing is like I don't. know how much time he has to investigate. the cases right so he has probably. people telling him things and who are. these people and what is their evidence. what's their information I I would I. would hope that if you have something. that's so controversial like you ran for. president you believe you should have. won and they rigged it you should have. data that you could spit out at any. cocktail party but he's doing the same.

thing that you're talking about CNN and. MSNBC do which is just repeating the. same thing when people were standing in. line voting a couple of weeks ago he was. saying the election was this election. was rigged and poof it must have they'. straightened it out because he won but I. don't you know what he was saying was. they were trying to rig the election and. uh I think what facts did he have to. back that up well there's the one thing. of bringing in people um to the country. illegally and then pushing for amnesty. which was they were doing they were yeah.

I just don't know the numbers on it I. millions of people if you think about. the amount of people that came into the. country right and you think about how. some of these swing States the. accumulative votes was like 75,000 that. switched it one way or another and just. you could imagine if you're bringing in. millions and millions of people and. you're moving them to swing States you. could do that yeah if that's true and. the evidence against it was like well. they're not all moving to swing States. well okay you can't tell people where. they can and can't move once they come. to the United States if they have family. that's in Texas or if they have family. that's in Arkansas or whatever they're.

going to go wherever the [ __ ] they want. to go but a significant number of them. were in the country if you're bringing. in 10 million people you have a quite a. bit of a buffer it's not a perfect. system but if you're trying to let. people in illegally and then give them. not just protection but also money food. food stamps housing taking care of them. and then giving them an incentive to. vote for the party that did that to them. when the other party wants to they they. want to round people up in Mass.

deportations yeah but putting party. aside what evidence did you see. documentary evidence that people were. registering to vote and how many of them. well it's not that they were registering. to vote the issue is that there's no. voter ID which is [ __ ] insane you. need an ID for everything this ID where. is there no voter ID Harris wants some. states that require voter ID contrary to. online claims fact check so also there's. an online chart that's incorrect that.

people are passing around see that this. is this is exactly so what states did. she win that have a voter ID well she's. get there's certain like deep State deep. blue States I hear you Colorado and. Rhode Island so is that two is that the. two uh Vice President also won New. Hampshire which requires photo ID but. allows individuals without one to either. have their identity confirmed by a. designated official or Phill and. affidavit um Harris also won both. Delaware and Virginia so there's a.

couple states that she won that have. voter. ID but these are these are like these. deep blue States fair enough look I. don't know the question is the swing. States I don't know enough about it and. I I'm I live in a in a world where I. need the evidence but backing up to the. other election look if I'm just saying. if there was one case where I was like. come on man you know what's weird about. the the one the 2020 that we keep going. back to is the amount of people that. voted that's what's really crazy way. more way more way more way more and.

that's I don't know what to make of that. well it's the first time ever you have. mailin ballots that use ubiquitously you. know that wasn't a thing before mailin. ballots were essentially for people that. were overseas well I think I think Co. had a big part sure it did but also. never you know miss an opportunity and. if you wanted to cheat that would be the. way to do it and to try to keep voted. mail in ballots keep people voting by. mail and ballots when it's not necessary. anymore it's not a pandemic sounds good. seems crazy it does but it's not to me I. live in a world that you cannot say [ __ ].

like that without backing it up but. listen whether I don't I have started to. really Veer away from having a strong. political view and just putting my head. down and doing what I can so I don't I. mean I don't see the evidence on the. prior election I see the claim repeated. a lot I just didn't see I don't see the. evidence either but I do see see. evidence that people are trying to make. it easier for illegals to vote that.

disturbs me the the pathway to. citizenship has always been kind of. difficult and when you talk to people. that have done it the right way it's. very hard they have to go up for review. they have to hope that this person. decides that they're a person worthy of. being in this country and you had to be. a person of extraordinary skill and. talent where that talent and skill. wasn't available in the United States. listen I recently moved out of New York. to Florida and I got my driver's license.

and registered to vote pretty quick. after I moved there my wife didn't when. we went to vote they wouldn't let her. vote because it hadn't been 30 days yet. um so all I could say is that in Florida. they required an ID yeah and they didn't. let my wife well California literally. passed a law where you're not allowed to. ask for ID which is crazy yeah it is. crazy that's crazy well why would you do. that Andre Andre what would be the most.

charitable version of why you would do. that yeah Andre Andre Ward and I have. been discussing California quite a bit. recently um and um seems like. uh it's it's a little. bananas to live in California right now. it's [ __ ] crazy yeah he's uh it's not. going to get better either though a lot. more people voted R in California have. you seen the map of uh 2020 versus 2024.

did there a giant significant shift and. if that keeps going the state's going to. go red and I think if the state keeps. falling apart people are going to come. to their senses and recognize that the. policies that they have in place right. now are [ __ ] gross they're gross and. you've got a bunch of bureaucrats that. are profiting off of the homeless. situation they're taxing the [ __ ]. [ __ ] out of people the state tax is 14. if you live in LA it's another one so. 15% of all your money just goes to. incompetence it's the same thing in New. York City I mean you.

you're giving to the state mm to the. city you end up paying way more than if. you make enough money you end up paying. way more here's the rub I don't get. about Democrats all right this is the. thing that bothers me about Democrats. and this is why I I registered finally. as an. independent the we hear about the. American dream a lot the American dream. American dream I was a son of a teacher. now I sound like a politician I was a. son of a teacher in the sales did you.

grow up middle class what's that yeah I. grew up middle class the I grew up. mid-middle class right and we had to. grind it out and there were financial. problems and everything else so the. American dream is to make it on your own. to be self-made and then you get to that. point and you get demonized for it now. you need to give back in a way that how. dare you not give more than half your. effective salary more than half your. income if you live in California or New. York right you give it away 52% 53% you.

end up feeling like what the [ __ ] what. did I do wrong I give back in so many. other ways and here's my take on that if. they were doing a great job and they. were legitimately making people's lives. better I'd be fine with that if if there. was a system where I had to pay 50%. because I make a lot of money and I had. to pay 50% but that 15% was changing. people's lives they could show you all. these success stories it's like. revolutionizing the way uh poor people. are allowed to make it out of that.

situation and feel in California no I. wasn't feeling it in New York going to. going to the state Courthouse you feel. bureaucracy yeah it's it's uh you feel. like corrupt politicians who are. profiting off of narratives and they're. they're a bunch of dirty people who. don't even follow their own [ __ ]. rules particularly Gavin Newsome doesn't. even follow his own rules it's the guy. that got busted in the middle of the. pandemic wearing no mask indoors eating. at The French Laundry it's all [ __ ]. it's all [ __ ] and the people felt.

really [ __ ] prisoned by it they felt. really captured by their government and. that's why a lot of people move he's got. great hair have great hair well he's a. great sort of version of what you would. expect of a politician just why does. great hair get you so far well people. want great hair they want good the good. jeans tall and great hair means a lot to. people um. yeah I don't I don't [ __ ] we're. stupid yeah people are stupid there's a.

lot of stupidity involved in why we. choose things you know I read I read. this article once about how um there was. a a poll done of female voters when Bill. Clinton ran the first time and they. asked the reasons why and it was. multiple choice and one of them was that. he was good-looking and had a full head. of hair yeah they want to [ __ ] him yeah. and apparently he wanted to [ __ ] them. yeah he's a great president though I. mean when in terms of policy in terms of.

what did for the economy guy was a great. president great orator I agree except. for the fact that mass incarceration. kind of started with him yes the the. crime bill of 94 yeah U so I think that. our prison industrial complex started. with Bill Clinton well it was kicked off. by Joe Biden. was it did which is hilarious this is. the guy running against all that yeah. it's all [ __ ] um you know I don't it. it was very interesting to me that this.

is playing out in real time with with. the incoming president and I have this. parallel situation going on in Ohio this. is called a weave I'm weaving back to. Ohio and I want to tell you the rest of. the story about the Ohio 4 um so this. guy JD Tomlinson is the the prosecuting. attorney in Lorraine he's under. indictment right now he's got two months. left um like I said he now knows.

according to him what it's like to be. wrongfully accused of a crime so watch. this you have these four. guys who so again it's Al Cleveland. lenworth Edwards John Edwards Benson. Davis yeah you got to light up for this. one so I told you William Avery Senor. goes in tries to get the reward money. they tell him [ __ ] off brings his son in. the next day they say to him no dice.

then he comes back and says okay Al. Cleveland told me he committed the. murder comes time for um their trials to. begin and they're going to all be tried. separately and William Avery Jr gives. this account of how this murder. happened and he says that he watches. this woman Marsha Blakeley get beat for. 15 to 20 minutes inside of her apartment. and that you know the reason um he this.

woman gets beat is because Al Cleveland. wanted him to work off a debt and beat. her up and he said no so then these four. men bust in the door and this is how the. crime. occurs it comes time for the first trial. of these four. men and William Avery Jr shows up as the. prosecution star Witness. and he. says I want $10,000 to.

testify he gave me two I want. $10,000 and the prosecutor say we're not. giving it to you and he says then I'm. not. testifying the judge throws him in. jail he's in. jail. he is cooling his heels as they say and. he says you know um. I made this whole thing up and I did it. for the.

money and no one believes him and the. judge. says what are you talking about you're. going to get on the stand and testify he. says no I'm not and now he's facing. potential perjury. charges the judge declares a. mistrial he. then comes back with a new story to the. prosecutors and says he. witnessed the beating he witness other. details of the. crime he then goes on to testify at all.

four of their trials after the first. mistrial they all get. convicted he then fully recants of his. own volition says he got off drugs says. he wants to straighten out his. life he's in the process of cooperating. with the FBI and the Secret Service now. these exhibits are sitting in this. folder you go to Twitter it's free the. Ohio.

4 free the Ohio 4 there it is and if you. just click on that URL one person's. following well zero followers there was. a there was a a reason because I didn't. put it up until right before the episode. to I want to be the first person to. follow. it get on I'm G to get on right now and. be the first person to follow it if you. click on that it will bring you to a. folder with this 40-page submission. that I put in. today and. references to all of the exhibits so.

here on this is my first. page at the trials of Al Munday that was. his. pseudonym Al Cleveland pseudonym at the. trials of Al Munday and those charged. with him I testified under oath that I. was an eyewitness to Alfred Cleveland. who I knew as Monday along with other. people I knew as J.R will and shakim who. was John Edwards beat Mara Blakeley at. Floyd ep's apartment and then murder her. behind Charlie's Bar and Lorraine all of.

this was a lie I never witnessed the. murder of Marsha Blakeley was not with. her or out Cleveland the night she was. murdered I only done it for the money. and everything was not. true the entire case was built on this. man there's no forensic evidence no. eyewitnesses nothing. so this is not to be believed what was. the reason why they thought this woman. and that other man were murdered they.

didn't know they had no Theory police. had no connection to them no connection. to them there was no Theory like drug. deal gone wrong something oh that was. what they ended up coming up with was. that she was a drug user uh Cleveland. was a drug dealer it must have been. drugs gone wrong. so something involving drugs gone wrong. so William Avery. Jr is after they get convicted is. working as an informant for the FBI and.

the Secret Service now prior to this. case maybe this is how obtuse I am I. thought that the secret service's. purview as the president but apparently. they have other investigative functions. because he was working on some food. stamp scheme as an informant the Secret. Service tells the FBI and the testimony. is in that exhibit file. the Secret Service tells the FBI this. guy William Avery Jr he's not to be.

trusted he's lying to us and he's lying. to us for money they contact the. prosecutor the FBI calls the prosecutor. in line County and says this guy William. Avery Jr used him as an informant in. that case against these for man he's a. liar and he does this for. money so they end up getting Al. Cleveland's lawyers John Edwards lawyers. lenworth Edwards B and Davis they end up. getting an evidentiary. hearing and William Avery Jr comes to.

testify and he's coming to testify that. I made the whole thing up and. he's in very exquisit detail his father. who obviously brought him there. threatened his life he was sat him down. and smoked crack with him to calm him. down you can't make this [ __ ] up wait.

till you read the affidavit he sat down. crack with him calm down down and told. him I need that reward money for my drug. habit he was a [ __ ] junkie so he. needs the reward money and he gets his. son to go in there and it's obvious if. you watch the if you read the. interrogation and his testimony that. he's being led they show him pictures of. the apartment where this this woman was. allegedly beat he's getting details. wrong they're they're um you know he.

changed his story was telling. conflicting versions of the story so at. these postconviction hearings where. these men should have all been. exonerated he gets on the stand and. before he testifies the judge says to. him have you been. advised um do you have an attorney he. said I don't think I need an attorney. and he tells William Aver junor well you. need an attorney we're going to appoint. you an attorney because you're about to. purger yourself because you either did.

one of two things you either lied and. that put four men in prison or you're. about to lie now to set them. free either way you've lied under. oath think about the mind [ __ ] of this. so this guy is coming to clear his. conscience and the judge threatens him. with prosecution so he gets an appointed. attorney and they go and ask the.

prosecutor will you give him immunity so. he can tell the truth they say no his. defense attorney asks the judge will you. give him immunity so he can tell the. truth and the judge says no oh God and. they tell him we're going to charge you. with. perjury if you tell the truth he walks. out of the. courthouse okay after pleading the fit. and is interviewed by the local paper. walking out of the courthouse that's in. the exhibits and he.

says they're all innocent I made the. whole thing up I've been trying to tell. the truth here but I can't go to jail. for whatever time they're going to give. me so here you have a guy that. is the son of a known junkie he has been. the prosecutors in this in Lorraine. County have told. um have been told by the FBI that he's. not reliable that he makes things up.

just to get money he's been caught in. lie after lie after lie and now he comes. and wants to tell the truth and set. these men free and the crazy and and. this judge puts him in this situation. where he's he can't tell the truth or. else he's going to get prosecuted this. is what happens in this country this is. the kind of thing that and these four. men two of them are out two of them are. serving life. sentences Al Cleveland's wife Roberta.

Cleveland saw this da and he said he was. going to do the right thing he knew that. the case was problematic and now because. he's worried about his own indictment. you know he's not responding so what. we're asking for is your listeners to go. through and read this very detailed. submission that I've made along with the. Ohio Innocence Project the Ohio public. defenders um and a great attorney um by.

the name of Kim Carrell who you. actually you actually had a good laugh. over one time oddly enough cuz she was. at the White House when Kanye West was. there and she was she was like. apparently like standing over him. smiling and you were like look at this. [ __ ] girl she just thinks that like. how the [ __ ] did I get here she told me. about it this morning did she feel that. way like how the [ __ ] did I get here she. probably did she's super cool I spoke to. her this morning she's a badass and she.

was like I've never met him but he seems. awesome and he did have a good laugh at. my expense when Kanye was in the white. house so yeah there she is that's her. you remember this kind of kind of it's. so funny but she's in the White House I. forgot that she's awesome but so we're. asking your listeners to go and read the. exhibits read the submission and then I. have a contact page call JD Tomlinson.

write him a letter look these four men. thank you Jamie these four men um. certainly were drug dealers Al Cleveland. we've established Al Cleveland's. Alibi John Edwards Alibi check this [ __ ]. out his Alibi witness was Damon John. from Shark. Tank he testified at his [ __ ] trial.

at post conviction. hearings Damon John back then was A Hard. Scrabble New Yorker he was doing. whatever he could to grind out this is. before FUBU and he was friends with Al. Cleveland and Al needed to move to have. a TV moved and Damon had like a Gypsy. Cab Service a car service in New York. you lived in New York right you remember. what it was like you call cab service. yeah a car service and he was with Al. Cleveland the day of these murders Al.

Cleveland saw his probation officer the. day after the murders people saw him all. over New York when the murders. happened John Edwards was with his. girlfriend his girlfriend's family. throughout the night from like 10 at. night till 3: in the morning his. girlfriend was pissed off at him because. he was flirting with some girl in the. bar um so these guys have aliis there is. no question they had absolutely nothing. to do with this crime this woman Marsha.

Blakeley was murdered right here's the. one of the strangest facts in this case. she is seen all over town all over. town at the time they claimed that you. that this that this guy William Avery. originally claimed she was murdered she. seen by family member's friend she's. looking for crack she's um walking down. the street way after her this guy claims. it happened how was she murdered she she. was throat was cut and she was run over.

by a car all right so we've talked about. tunnel vision before and when the police. think they have the guy they had a. problem on their hands they couldn't. solve the crime and they have these guys. that are drug dealers in the area so. they become easy marks for this there is. a. blade sitting in a diagram found right. next to Marsha blakeley's body they. never tested it for DN they never. collected it they never tested it it was. at a time when DNA is the early 90s DNA.

was. around her roommate EPS Raymond EPS is. found a mile or two down the road with. his throat slit and run over same thing. same thing no one's been. charged no one's been charged it's an. unsolved case as of this day why. because they pinned on these other. because they pinned on these guys and. this guy William Avery Jr only came in.

with information about one of the. murders the the cases were so clearly. connected that the medical examiner. pointed it out these people were killed. in the same. way why there isn't an outrage a [ __ ]. outrage about this case is is beyond me. when I got this case I said there is no. way what you're telling me is true that. this guy has come and wants to clear his. conscience and tells you exactly what. happened and the FBI told the.

prosecutors that he's a liar and these. guys are still two of them are still. serving life sentences and when you have. to live stamped as a murderer um even in. the Free World you know Al Cleveland is. out and he's. suffering I mean I had to listen to his. wife um. heaving she couldn't get a hold of. herself because she went down to JD.

Tomlinson's office and said you told me. you were going to. help and he said I can't now I'm sorry. I've been. indicted the last time I exonerated. someone look what they did to me because. he exonerated someone else and his. political opponents attacked him um you. know human beings we we. we sometimes get in our own way because. of outside forces what we think other.

people are going to say think JD. Tomlinson's been voted out he's been. wrongfully accused of a crime it's time. for him to to say you know what I'm. going to do the right thing all I ask is. actually a meeting with him I want to. meet with you between now and December. 31st let me lay everything out for you. as I have in this submission he's now. going to have it in his. hands um he wouldn't answer my text. messages I'll give him a break he was. obviously going through some um serious.

personal issues being under indictment. running for. reelection um this is an easy thing this. is just doing the right thing um there. is no way that you could look at this. evidence and this is why I think it's a. good idea. for rather than give a snapshot of a. case. and um have to rely on some process with. these conviction Integrity units behind.

closed doors where they run the. reinvestigation I like the public being. able to get invested and look at the. evidence themselves Everyone Loves A. True Crime Story um so why not as part. of this let the public help make the. case and when they write a letter. they'll do it more forcefully or they. call him and say how could you ignore. this so um I would just encourage. everyone to go on Twitter and go to free.

the Ohio 4 and look at the evidence and. if you ever I've gotten so many reach. outs how can I make a difference what. can I do to make a difference this is it. you can write you can call um you know. his his cell phone number is online. because he was running for reelection. you know let him know that the public is. watching. and expecting him to do the right thing. um you know that's the.

the the best use I feel like I can make. of publicly advocating for change is to. help bring in the public and and give. them a vested interest in trying to help. well this case is this is. a just an amazing example right I mean. you said this is the craziest case you. think you've ever I don't think I've. ever had a case. ever where the the sole alleged.

eyewitness recants and then is. threatened with jail time is actually. put in jail after trying to extort the. prosecutors where there's no forensic. evidence and it was the most incomplete. investigation I have ever seen what. would be the most logical thing to do if. this guy says you know what there was a. beating at this. house what what would be the most. logical thing for police to do there was.

a beating inside this apartment for 15. to 20 minutes and this woman was. brutally. beaten what are the police going to do. first scan for evidence go to the. apartment they go to the apartment right. they don't spray it for. luminol they don't see if there's you. luminol is a a chemical agent that. brings out hidden blood um. you. know they do nothing they go and do a. scan of the apartment a visual scan and.

see nothing out of order they don't test. that knife and this is was there. evidence that the woman was beaten no. evidence oh there was evidence that she. was beaten just not in that. apartment so she's beaten before she was. stabbed there was there was an. eyewitness that saw her that night with. like a black eye beg begging for money. for drugs oh okay after he allegedly saw. her killed oh so it's um she was living.

a street life right and she was there. was you know suspicion that she was. trading sex for money um so that she. could feed her drug habit so um I just. don't I don't I've never had a case. where the FBI calls the prosecutor and. says this guy is a liar and he goes in. for reward money and for financial gain. and he can't be trusted never had a case. where a judge says if you tell the. truth we're going to put you in.

jail if you tell the truth it's just as. bad as putting these guys you know um. you either told a lie to put them in. jail or you're now telling a lie to free. them I mean I just don't get it I just. don't get it um I don't understand why. you know in in almost half of the cases. where there has been an exoneration. based on a sole eyewitness's testimony. over half the people.

recant and the courts are very critical. of these. recantations so in other words if. someone makes up a story and then they. come back and say look I made that up. because my dad was threatening me. because the police threatened me that's. somehow viewed very very. critically whereas the initial allg it's. really easy to put someone in jail real. easy real difficult to get him out so do. you think that's because the system is.

set up to not reverse convictions. because it's bad for the prosecutor's. record it's bad for the confidence of. the judicial system like all of the. above yeah I mean why did kamla Harris. block um why did she block access to. biological evidence from crime scenes. I think the rationale back then was oh. well it would lead to a flood of. requests so [ __ ] what right flood of.

requests from innocent people perhaps or. or people that want you maybe they're. guilty and they want to take a shot who. knows but isn't that worth the price of. of you know wrongfully incarcerating. people and you know why is. um it's it's there's so much politics. that gets wound up in this I don't I you. know and and for the life of me I don't. understand why you know it doesn't see. the light of day more I testified before. the house Judiciary Committee in Florida.

in connection with the Pearl mutter case. when their DNA was stolen all right. their DNA was stolen and they were. wrongfully accused of a crime like in. Lori. perer and I testified before the house. Judiciary Committee. that stealing someone's. DNA as a private citizen should be a. felony all right it was a. misdemeanor and you know it was one of.

my finer moments of oration I think. because I got a 160. vote and I had a really interesting. discussion it's recorded I should find. it and and send it to you sometime but. there were. Republicans that asked me. um hey what is it that we can do to help. you more because this story is. crazy and I said well there is um.

something that you can do as part of. this bill we would like to make it not. only a felony but give defense attorneys. that have a good faith basis to believe. that it's an alternative suspect's DNA. the same right to collect that DNA as. law. enforcement and if they make a showing. to the court that they have a basis to. believe that this is an alternative. suspect so I had a former um police. officer who was a member of the. Judiciary Committee say look I was a cop.

and we used to do it all the time and. his exact quote was what's good for the. goose is good for the gander and I think. if you can make a good face showing I. want to support. that when it came time for the bill to. go to the Senate the guy that was. sponsoring the bill um wasn't responding. to me I said we got overwhelming support. not only to um get the bill you know. made from a misdemeanor into a felony.

but also to allow defense attorneys. criminal defense attorneys with an. adequate showing um to collect the DNA. of alternative suspects and I said so. we'd like to add that Amendment and he. just stopped responding to me and. finally I got him on the phone and I. said uh what What's the story why aren't. you responding to this and he goes it's. not happening Josh just not going to. happen and I said' why he goes I'm not. going to go into that but it's not. happening so you know obviously there.

was some political push back to it he. just wasn't going to have that part of. this bill um so you know I don't. know what else you can do to push these. issues you know other than get out there. in the public and Bang the Drum about it. and try to get people to pay attention. and this I think is a rare opportunity. because it gives people um it allows. them to invest in this it allows them to.

see what the evidence is and actually. you know write a letter and say hey I. saw the testimony of the secret service. agent of this FBI agent under oath in. these postc conviction proceedings why. can't how what more would you need you. have the power to to exonerate these. guys and end this 30 yearlong nightmare. for them why not do it like yeah why not. well I'm hoping that this is one of. those cases where the people will get.

activated and uh the way you laid it out. is so crazy I mean and with more. evidence online that that people have. access to I'm sure there's a bunch of. people who are going to react to that. I'm curious to see what the response is. going to be yeah free the Ohio 4 at free. the ohio4 on uh Twitter and you know. like I'm not a big Twitter guy or I. can't say Twitter anymore I'm I'm not a. big ex guy I say Twitter yeah so I mean. I guess I should get more into it yeah. we did we we threw this.

up hopefully that that that the num. start uh going up oh they will as soon. as it gets published I'm sure we'll get. a chance to see it's going to be. interesting to see how many Bots lock. onto it yeah and then it would be my um. it would be my dream to one day have the. Ohio Force sitting here and have a a. toast. yeah wow what a story they have huh yeah. Jesus Christ and you know the the sad.

part about it is is like I hope that. people don't say well there were drug. dealers at the time and you. know again that's not because you commit. one crime doesn't mean that yeah doesn't. mean you're murderer. also like it's. circumstances are different for every. [ __ ] human being and uh for you to. think that there's no way that I would. do a. crime especially a crime like that like. are you sure are you sure if you were in. their shoes if you lived their life you.

know we we all like to think that. everybody's life is the same as ours we. only have one life that we can kind of. reference when we look at other people's. lives we kind of imagine what it would. be like to live their life we don't know. people do desperate things in Desperate. Times depending upon your environment. depending upon how you grew up what your. influences were what trauma you experien. experienced whether you incarcerated at. a young. age no one has any understanding of that. other than the people that get trapped.

into the system they just don't you know. it's tough on crime yes I think you. should be tough on crime I think you. should arrest criminals and evil people. that do terrible things that make. Society awful so do I but also you. should definitely not arrest innocent. people you should definitely not. imprison them and then punish someone. who's trying to say hey the reason why. these people are in jail is cuz I told a. lie. yeah I mean I don't get the threat of of. punishing them and you know you. um I I hope you have the the type of.

influence and following that just listen. to that perspective folks right you know. I have in the last few years developed a. way deeper understanding of how relative. trauma can be from Individual to. individual I did not realize trauma that. I had suffered until I started to travel. those. roads um and then how it can um impact.

Behavior so I'm trying to make better. decisions about how I judge things. because I I don't want to say I don't. make I'm not judgmental we're all. judgmental everyone's judgmental you. have to be that's how you survive in. life right I have to form judgments but. I'm trying to make more educated. judgments rather than judging someone. based on you know not having a complete. picture of what they might have been. through and. also um not being able to put as best I.

can behind their eyeballs or in their. brain right it's hard unless you really. make an investment and I think the easy. thing to do is to make a quick judgment. and keep it moving yes right and I think. that words can be an excuse the Deep. dive is too. um much of a Time investment too. difficult and I've had to understand. behaviors that I never thought I would. ever have to consider and I can tell you.

at least in my experience it forces you. to become a more compassionate human. being a more understanding human being. you get to know yourself better um. because if you're not just constantly. trying to figure out more about yourself. and others what the [ __ ] are we doing. here right what the [ __ ] are we doing. here yeah yeah if you're not trying to. figure out more about yourself I mean if. you're the most enlightened person alive. tell us how you did. it you know you don't you don't have any.

searching to do anymore tell us what you. did because uh I never met anybody like. that I um I can't thank you enough um. because again it uh it's a rare. occurrence these days that um to be. unaffected by the outside noise. and I promise you um I'll do better. in making sure that I'm a little bit. more U plugged into to the help people. are getting when they get out whether.

they have done it or not we've had two. recent. resentencing um one guy was um. paralyzed um and blinded in. prison and um he's in a wheelchair and. he can't see and part of the reason he. was paralyzed was because of poor. medical care that he was getting it was. a difficult decision to make initially. because I said [ __ ] another resentencing. a guy that was found guilty and then I. saw the horrific medical treatment he.

was getting and I said you know this. just isn't right you don't just throw. out a human being like this and what. threat is he in a wheelchair. blind um but you know I have to do a. good job of making sure that people are. getting the attention and care they need. it takes resources and you know we're. thankful to everybody that continues to. reach out and support and of these. causes the Pearl mutter Center um you. know the Midwest Innocence Project is a. great one the Ohio Innocence Project.

those are all satellite projects but the. freedom clinic at the PE mutter Center. we've had some terrific um folks. including the Pearl mters that have. given us the resources we need to make a. difference so I just I have your uh. you're you're in my I'm in your. debt eternally you're not you're not um. I appreciate you very much and um my. thing about the outside noise is um you. should never put any uh effort or time.

or focus into something that has no net. benefit there's no benefit in the. outside noise it doesn't do you. especially if you are an introspective. person if you're a person who thinks. everything you do is awesome maybe it's. good to see people [ __ ] on you maybe. it's good to see that some people don't. like you maybe it's good maybe it's good. to hear other people's perspectives kind. of like. you put your ego in check but if you're. a person that's introspective and I know. you are if you're a person that is hard.

on yourself when you make mistakes no. one's harder on me than me I'm very hard. on me oh I know someone that's that's as. hard on themselves as you he's sitting. across from you but it's um course. correct you know if you if you look. Inward and you don't like what you're. doing or what you've said or who you are. don't do that again one of the best. things I did in the wake of this whole. Sheldon Johnson. um incident is I turned my comments off.

on Instagram and turn my account private. um I think I'll make it public again. after today because I want to generate. support for the Ohio. 4 um and but turning comments off is a. nice thing because you can't believe the. good stuff or the bad stuff you just. stay forward especially for people in. the public the good stuff you can get. what they call audience capture you know. you have enough people leaning you in a. certain direction or giving you praise. for a certain thing you start doing more. of that you know and this is a.

manipulative tactic that's used. online both for and against people hey. man look when I was uh on my way over. here. today uh I was walking into the Uber and. a guy at the hotel goes I hope you're. going to talk that talk over on the over. on the Jr over on the JRE and I said. yeah I am and it turns out that he went. to high school with Rodney Reid who's on. death row here in Texas and I got into a.

interesting conversation with him he's. like man his older brother could pop and. lock I said yeah he goes man this. [ __ ] was popping and locking all. the time he's telling me about him break. dancing and he's like no for real you. know shining a light on this stuff gives. a lot of people out here hope and I told. them that you know I wrote a letter to. the legislator here in Texas that's. reconsidering that case um so it's just.

real cool man to get um to get people. behind it that really care about this. stuff and you know the public can really. help out you don't have to be a lawyer. you don't have to be a Psy psychologist. you don't have to be a therapist you. know pressure does break pipes so. reaching out to JD Tomlinson and making. noise between now and December 31st and. as you said talking about things on this. podcast have actually exonerated people. yeah I thought this one was probably.

better off just. me let me think real carefully about. about the next I know Jamie and I were. both talking about you think he's going. to bring somebody. in [ __ ] you certainly can I mean you. definitely can next time around and if. it's the Ohio 4 great Hey listen the. guys that have been on here are all. thriving yeah Bruce Bryan yeah works at. the Queen's defender office he has not. been without challenges trust me um but.

he's actually going I'll I'll leave you. with this Bruce is going. to um hope hope that perole lets him. because we're still working on his full. exoneration even though he was granted. clemency on on the Innocence claim Bruce. is going to Nairobi and. Uganda um to speak to prisoners there. whoa and he's a climb advocate for the. Queen's Defenders Derek continues to be. um a whirlwind of positive activity he's.

just a a amazing he's getting people out. left and right Robert um Robert Johnson. who we had on is continuing to do. amazing things down in New Orleans um. and and all of them are just thriving. they're doing well and not enough. attention is given to the the endings. right then we give to the bad stuff but. of course I mean that's just how people. are you know why is that you know what.

first of all they're afraid of crime you. know so they uh they highlight the the. instances where things are bad and. things do go bad and they don't they. don't want to look at the disgusting. aspects of the legal system they want. people want to live life through. rose-colored glasses and have this. perspective that the the bad people go. to jail but it's not just about crime. most of the headlines that get the most. clicks are about someone having a. [ __ ] Affair somebody dying there's.

not a lot of Triumph in the news Well. people like when other people's lives. suck because it makes them not think. about the suck of their own life that's. why they like it when a celebrity falls. like a pidy gets arrested because they. see these people living these lives they. could never imagine like yachts and. rolls-royces and all that [ __ ] and then. they see them get taken down like yeah. because they were you know envious and. it's also like it's a part of our.

culture is to celebrate wealth in the. most disgusting and extravagant ways you. know like I mean how many um social. media personalities have emerged just. complet just all about look at all the. stuff I have look at all the things I. have look at all the famous people I'm. hanging out with look at all the girls. look at the yacht look at the car look. at the jet look at this look at that. look at all the things you can't get and. when those people get got people love it. you know who you know who uh folks are.

probably clamoring gets got who if. that's the basis and I don't agree who's. that [ __ ] guy he's always got a shirt. off he's always taking pictures on. yachts and shooting machine guns oh Dam. oh man. yeah I'd like to I'd like to peek into. his brain one day m. yeah there probably a lot going on in. there it's uh it's interesting how. people do become famous for that though.

it's like showing your stuff makes you. famous showing a life that other people. can't really imagine ever living but. think of the hypocrisy and the and the. inner conflict and turmoil that that. exposes so in other. words we want people to fail that's. somehow innate in many of us it makes us. feel better about ourselves yet you will. have 3 million followers or 10 or 15.

following someone that and I'm not. talking about that guy whoever MH who is. clearly just selling their looks or. their lifestyle or whatever it is so yet. we're drawn to it and we want to watch. it and then when the person fails we. want to [ __ ] devour them to the point. where they're a carcass laying in the. street sure celebrity marriages and. divorces that's another big one love it. when celebrities get divorced haha haha. you're miserable too do you love it no.

no people love it I I find it. fascinating when people keep getting. married and keep getting divorced God. damn how many times can JLo get married. before the next guy's like hey I don't. know if this is going to work out yeah. is it really Ben Affleck that's the. problem who's the problem well he's. certainly a problem as well that guy. Mark Anthony seems like a nice [ __ ]. guy seems like a sweetheart when she. married a bunch of dudes but you know. whatever she's obviously a lot of work. that's you want a diva good luck that. requires a lot of work I just want I.

just want to understand it all I just. want to like me me and my brother. sometimes go what's it all about it's. definitely not all about caring whether. or not JLo gets divorced again you know. what I find difficult I've been playing. with this idea and something that I'm. writing right now and it couldn't be. more pre than than right now is the this. notion of. what the truth. is I don't know what like we we had it.

happened to us right here are are some. of the Swing States requiring ID or all. of them it's hard to keep a grasp on. reality and the truth these days because. there's information that is. intravenously injected into your veins. it seems like so I have a hard time. knowing what's true anymore well the the. news itself outright lies it's not like. a conversation like we have where Jamie. checks it in real time and I saw a thing.

that said the swing state or the uh the. states that required no V ID were the. ones that she won she won other ones as. well but when you uh have the news. saying things so they have researched it. they do know that it's a lie this is not. like a live conversation like we're. having where I didn't know we were going. to talk about that at all nor nor did. you it just spontaneously came up these. people are putting narratives out there. that are just Flatout lies and they're.

doing it all the time I mean Obama did. it during the campaign where he repeated. that lie about Donald Trump talking. about white supremacist saying they're. very fine people on both sides so just a. flat out line oh that was the um the. unite the right well it was all about. the Statue the statues of Civil War. people being taken down. and he's. saying you I'm not talking he literally. said I not talking about white. supremacists and the KKK they should be.

condemned he said I'm talking about. people that came did he say that in the. same oh yeah oh you can see it so weird. go to know J companion Instagram cuz on. that page there is what Obama said and. then on the same video there is what. Trump actually and. it's disgusting it's a disgusting lie. and it's a guy who's as and he's talking. about George Washington he said George.

Washington had slaves said Thomas. Jefferson we're going take down Thomas. Jeff let's play it so you can see it. here said that there were very fine. people on both sides of a white. supremist. rally and you had some very bad people. in that group but you also had people. that. were very fine people on both sides you. had people in that group excuse me. excuse me I saw the same pictures as you. did you had people in that group that.

were there to protest the taking down of. to them a very very important statue and. the renaming of a park from Robert E Lee. to another name Washington are not the. No George Washington was a slave owner. was George Washington a slave owner so. will George Washington now lose his. status are we going to take down excuse. me are we going to take down are we. going to take down statutes to George. how about Thomas Jefferson what do you. think of Thomas Jefferson you like him.

okay good are we going to take down the. statue because he was a major slave. owner now are we going to take down his. statue so you know what it's fine you're. changing history you're changing culture. and you had people and I'm not talking. about the neo-nazis and the white. nationalists because they should be. condemned totally but you had many. people in that group other than neo-Nazi. and white nationalists okay and the. Press has treated them absolutely. unfairly now that's see see that's crazy.

I have never I have never seen that last. part of it yeah so here so here is my. struggle with the truth unfold display. i' never seen that part because because. the news has said that lie over and over. and over and over and over again that. the news the mainstream corporate. controlled news that wanted this. narrative that Donald Trump was a Nazi. said that over and over and over again. they repeated it they compared him up. until the election Joy Reed was. literally comparing him to Stalin Hitler.

and musolini and spent a whole piece. describing right-wing dictators that he. is going to be a right-wing dictator. just like Hitler just like Stalin this. is the LIE of the media so this is one. of the reasons why it's so hard to tell. the truth it should be illegal to do. that it should be illegal to say that. because it's not true and you're. changing the perspective of millions of.

people especially lowi information. voters that look at Obama like a thing. from the past when time was sane when. the world was normal a brilliant guy who. is the president If This brilliant guy. is willing to lie for in front of. everybody yeah but here's the thing. there's no question they all lie. Trump included we talked about that. earlier he lies also this is like the. the but did he lie about Biden and what.

what Biden did did he lie about any of. that. no he's lied plenty I'm sure for sure. but in in the context of a campaign. where you're completely distorting the. perspective of the person you're running. against not just who they are but what. they've done and what they've said and. what they stand for he does the the same. thing though but did he do that with. Biden um I believe he did how did he do. it um I think that there were many times. where.

he would accuse him of. having created the problem at the border. that it was all his creation people. don't seem to remember that when Trump. was President his border policies of. separating families at the border was. not great it was not great but do you. understand that Obama had those exact. same policies I'm not disagreeing with. that I'm just saying you this is just. what they do with children when children.

are when parents arrested they separate. the families this is it was a well that. that happened under Obama but under. trump it wasn't just separating the. children it was separating them for. indefinite periods so well is there a. difference in the way Obama handled it. in the separation I I'm not going to. speak to something I don't right so. that's a problem right so it's a problem. if you're accusing him of that here's. the here's the thing I think they all. lie I don't have I don't I didn't follow. it closely enough to say I think they. all lie too but there's not a thing like. that that I can point to where he was.

saying something about Biden that was. factually incorrect here's the thing. that turned me off completely about the. election this time and why I said [ __ ]. it I'm voting for Jill Stein a physician. that probably is the least qualified of. anyone only as like my form of saying. I'll protest it you know KL Harris. during the debate said that there is not. a single. um it was some remark there's not a. single American Soldier de and and then. I saw videos of American soldiers in a.

war zone watching it like a in parallel. reality what the [ __ ] is she talking. about did you see Dan crenchaw Post. about that where are we right now they. were in a [ __ ] Foxhole or a tent Dan. khaw posted all of the soldiers all the. the numbers that we have that see if you. can find that post it's on his Instagram. in response to that you know khaw who. lost his eye in war he was Navy SEAL he. was the one that was circulating the. clip about of me being critical of her. it's a good clip yeah solid clip I stand.

by it yeah and you were correct I mean. and then the crazy thing is you you had. a conversation with her about that yeah. I was on zoom and she couldn't answer a. question them and she can't answer a. question now she still refused to answer. a [ __ ] question that was the most. frustrating thing I mean how about. saying look obviously what happened at. the border is a crisis it was not. handled well here is what I plan to do. different it's it's outside of of at.

least her. um capacity or willingness to do. something like that but it was also the. complicit nature of that the the media. was in on it because they were. factchecking Trump constantly they. didn't fact check her on that something. that should be immediately fact. especially during a debate I agree first. of all how did you not know how do you. not know that you're either lying or you. don't know that we have troops deployed.

listen maybe you're right maybe it is. that Trump repeats things that he heard. that are moronic and nonsensical. sometimes and that takes away from the. great he can do he definitely does that. right like talking about people eating. dogs and cats and the election being. rigged all sort of baseless [ __ ] takes. away from the fact that you know the. things that stick out to and it's like. get out of your own way bro he pardoned. Jack Johnson he um he pardoned um one of. my clients I think that he he has done.

more and cared more about Criminal. Justice Reform than certainly that any. other president in my lifetime no one. ever wants to highlight the good things. yeah that that guy's done that's why I. just did it and I I just it's. frustrating to me because it's like just. don't listen to the last thing everyone. told you because you can be great. you can I mean the fact that he does. what he wants and says what he wants and. gets elected look at this this is what. Dan crenchaw responded with no US troops.

active combat zones question mark how. did ABC let kamla get away with that. during the debate US Sailors and Marines. are fighting off houti attacks in Yemen. over 3,400 troops are engaged in Iraq. and Syria we have forces in Western. Africa battling terrorists just this. year three US soldiers were killed and. 40 injured in Jordan by an Iranian m. drone nearly 1,000 troops are still in. deployed in Syria and 2,500 remain in. Iraq under operation inherent resolve so.

that's crazy yeah crazy thing to say but. it's also just shows you how corrupt the. relationship is between the media and. what we get to see it's corrupt there's. a bunch of people that had decided that. they were going to fact check Trump. continually and not fact check her and. they were doing this because they wanted. her to look better than him because they. wanted her to win yeah I mean listen the. most I have I have and this is why I.

mentioned you know it's hard to know. what the truth is right the reason why I. posted all the exhibits the reason why I. put the letter up and the reason why I. put the contact information up is that. when when you have a. transcript um and you have uh you know. actual documentary evidence that's hard. to argue with it's not a sound bite it's. not a clip so I feel like maybe part of. what appeals to me about this work is.

trying to get closer to the truth a. truth that is a bit more provable you. know I would probably been very happy as. a mathematician if I was any good at. math I stink at it but I I think that um. there. is it's very difficult to understand you. know I feel like I'm sitting here and I. feel manipulated by the fact that I. never and and it's really on me that I. didn't go and watch the. entirety of that comment because I.

literally don't think I've ever listened. to the part where he says obviously the. neo-nazis and you know the people that. were there for the wrong reasons need to. be condemned you know and I was watching. recently I was talking to to the great. dubini about this he's he pointed out to. me that comment about um Liz Cheney mhm. and then he's like go watch the full. clip right it's another one and I. watched the full clip and I was like.

it's enraging this is so out of [ __ ]. context so then you start to wonder well. how much is my opinion of him been. formed by um my concern about other. people lashing out at me yes I mean you. should hear the [ __ ] I got when I um. when I spoke ill of Harris by you know I. guess call them the left I I you know. and it was like infuriating to me you. know so I don't politics to me is too.

it's too much of you know you have to. serve so many different interests that. you sort of forget who you are yes and. what you stand for so that's what turns. me off about it and you know I don't. think that that'll change that's why I. sort of shifted to this is the most I've. talked about politics in probably five. years but that's why I've shifted to let. me just put my head down and get to work. on what I can work on yes well I think.

that's very practical um and I think. what you said is very important for. people to understand that a lot of what. people say they say it because they. don't want people to attack them they. say it because they think that if they. say it it will clear them they'll be. okay if you say you support X you might. not even support X but if you say. support X you're not going to get. attacked and the right people will leave. you alone or agree with you and. appreciate you or praise you thank you. for saying that there's a lot of that.

out there there's a lot of people that. don't speak their mind do you know how. many artists that have reached out to me. that are like [ __ ] hippies man like. like artists like musicians. comedians that thanked me for endorsing. Trump because they can't do it they said. they want to but they don't want to be. they can't say it they think the country. is going in the wrong direction they. think that this control of social media. by the government which we would have. had pretty much fully if it wasn't for.

Elon buying Twitter this is a dangerous. precedent to set whether it's a. right-wing government or a leftwing. government and that what you see that's. happening in the UK where people are. being in prisoned for tweets and. Facebook. posts in the UK is the part that's. mind-bending about it mindbending the. whole thing is nuts and it's a dangerous. path that we were on we were on that. path Trump has vowed to have free speech. become a very important part of what.

he's standing for and that this. censoring of information needs to stop. and that we need to stop all government. influence in what people have to say. yeah look I that alone that's that's uh. that shouldn't be as revolutionary as it. is I know it should be a core tenant of. what I mean it's essentially the first. Amendment you know and I and I think. it's so transferable to what I do in. this context because a lot. of the the.

reluctance of of prosecutors not to do. the right thing or what their conscience. tells them is the fear of the backlash. yes how will it hurt my chances in a. reelection of course what will it and so. that's what I hate about politics is you. serve So Many Masters yeah and um it's a. dirty business it's a dirty and you got. to have you got to have nuts of steel or. you have to be a [ __ ] sociopath it's. either or you know you have to be a. blindly ambitious sociopath who can.

weave your way through these sort. of social and political relationships. and get to the top for what for what. what do you I mean imagine if one of. those person does wind up becoming. president that has no am no real thought. or no real care about the country no. real ambition other than the the blind. serving of their own success well I. think that that's what for people that. are so. like it's hard to explain if you didn't.

live in New. York for people that are just like oh my. God what's the next four years going to. be like and you know what like it like. it's a funeral like get up and do. something all four years that you think. is going to help make Society better you. do that whether it's um getting out and. knocking on doors and making your for. whatever you're passionate about not. just when an election is coming up but.

get out and knock on doors get out and. get involved in some organization that. you believe in do something that you. think will help lend itself to bettering. Society in some way what happens is. every four years there's this. polarization and people get on one side. or the other and they complain and [ __ ]. and and then they w in it too often for. too long a time I think that the people. that actually make the most change. happen are the ones that can sit and.

talk with people that might have. different beliefs than them and don't. make them other than absolutely right I. mean absolutely anytime I've made an. emotional decision in in business. personally it's never gone well for me. right so people are going to have. different points of view than you I was. talking to my cousin about it and I was. trying to help her explain that just. because you voted for Trump that doesn't. make you bad or I said you know her. whole thing was well if you have.

daughters there's no way you can vote. for him I said here's the fundamental. flaw and how you're looking at this. there are some people that are. pro-life okay that doesn't make them. wrong that makes you have a different. opinion than them you have a. disagreement and if the basis of your. vote is that your pro choice and their. pro life okay have a disagreement you.

know um I don't I just don't understand. how a singular issue like that and I. understand that listen I understand it. from a woman's perspective yeah I'm a. father of two daughters yeah I uh I talk. to my wife about it often um you know. especially going to Florida where the. laws on abortion ain't the same as they. are in New York work um and I um I. understand it from a woman's perspective. completely and I actually disagree with. you know overturning Row versus Wade but.

you cannot be that myopic you just can't. because if you're that myopic you're. going to then find yourself in a corner. on one issue and life is a little bit. more U robust than that isn't it it's. more nuanced yeah yeah that was the. better word yeah it is more Nuance well. listen my brother I love you to death I. appreciate what you. do I think the world's a better place. because of what you do I really do and I. think you've changed a lot of people's.

perspective on the legal system and I'm. glad that we didn't let what happened. with Sheldon change that and uh I think. there's just so much more great work to. be done well my my continued profound. gratitude um to continuing to let me. tell these stories I promise the next. time I bring a guest on they will be. well they will be they will be. vetted yeah the guests will be vetted a. lot more thoroughly and you know there's.

no way you could have known there's no. way I could have known and you know it. was interesting because I was for 48. hours I felt what it was like I felt. what it was like to be a. headline um and then I was like this. sucks for the wrong reasons it was like. uh well I know you were in a dark place. but I'm glad you got out of it yeah it's. not about me time yeah and I uh I just. I'm really really really. um appreciative of um of this and you.

know if that can't shake the foundation. of this um Forum I think we're going to. just keep on making great change happen. and hopefully we we free the Ohio 4 and. keep on moving yeah and I hope we do do. a podcast one day with them deep love. deep love to you too all right goodbye. everybody he. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].