Joe Rogan Experience #2213 - Diane K. Boyd

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day what's up how are you I am great. long flight in from Montana but I'm. great thank you well it's very nice to. meet you and I really enjoyed you on. Steve rell's podcast as well oh good oh. good you got to watch it yeah Steve Well. Steve made the introduction he uh told. me I have to have you on CU he knows how. fascinated I am by wolves so uh I'm.

really excited to talk to you thanks and. I'm excited too cuz I thought well you. got we're we're both Hunters we're both. dog lovers you got an interest in wolves. it's all good how did you start getting. interested in wolves and start working. with Wolves well I grew up in Minnesota. and probably tell from the Fargo accent. but um I grew up in Minnesota and back. in the 60s and 70s when I was thinking. about a career Minnesota was the only. state in the lower 48 that had wolves. with the exception of a few like 25. maybe in iow oil a couple here or there.

in in uh Wisconsin and so I was. interested from the beginning with that. and then when I went to the University. of Minnesota Dave meech who was like the. god god of the wolf World his office was. on my campus so I just stopped by and. kept bugging him I would I wouldn't go. away like a good parasite persist. persist persist why wolves why were. wolves so interesting to you you know. I'm just I'm kind of um a wildlife. person they're the ultimate in a really. wild and smart animal they're a.

carnivore they're social like people and. I think I was denied having a dog most. of my life growing up till was about 15. so I had this com this passion for. canines in general I love dogs I do too. I love them and I love wolves um I'm so. fascinated by them and I'm so uh. interested in the whole history of them. in this country how they were sort of. eradicated from most of the western. states and the reintroduction of them so.

you were there for all of it right so. when you first started they had pretty. much been wiped out except as you said. in Minnesota you said Idaho that was the. only other place that had them or no. Isle Royal which is an island in Lake. Superior it's actually technically part. of Michigan and they walked over on the. Frozen Lake Superior ice in the late. like 1949 50s early and they stayed and. they they got seated there and they had. endless amount of moose to kill and eat. so they were in kind of a wolf Paradise. with that and is it still like that.

there yes and the populations of of. wolves and moose go up and down because. you know in nature nothing is here we. always wanted to be here but it's always. doing this right and um yeah they're. doing there and then interestingly when. they when they arrived they migrated on. their own power um there was very little. immigration there was a couple of wolves. documented showing up here and there but. apparently genetically there was no. influx of new genes so the wolves that. came and went didn't breed and. eventually they became so in they.

started having physical anomalies and. eventually just a few years ago four or. five years ago they got down to just a. father daughter team and only two wolves. left and it was over and so they. wouldn't breed um because they have they. don't breed close relatives generally so. they just did a reintroduction to I oil. too that's been relatively new just a. handful of years so they had to rebost. the population if they wanted to keep. them going or wait for the lake to. freeze again which may or may not happen.

in our lifetimes you know H so when they. reintroduce them um this is one of the. sticking points about the reintroduction. of Yellowstone a lot of people that were. against it were saying that they. reintroduced a different size wolf that. they reintroduced wolves from Canada. yeah is that true um sort of no so no in. my book I've got a chapter called. slaying the superwolf and so people call. these wolves superwolves cuz they say. that they're they're not native they're.

Canadian super wolves and they weigh 170. pounds and goes on and on and on but um. I documented a wolf that I caught in the. Glacier Park area wolf. 8551 and we just had VHF collars we. didn't have satellite collar in those. days and she hung around for a while and. then she just disappeared and S months. later the British Columbia Environmental. Ministry game Ardon called me says we. got we got one of your wolves killed uh. do you want the call her yes pleas where.

is it P Coupe I said oh where is that. well it turns out that is 540 Mi north. of Glacier Park in seven months so we. didn't know if the guy farmer shot it in. July if they hadn't a shot it we would. never have known what happened to her. but if she would have gone South instead. of North she'd have been about a 100. miles south of Yellowstone Park so. clearly they have the ability to. disperse that far the other interesting. thing about that wolf is when she went.

North they got the reintroduced wolves. from two areas um from Hinton in Alberta. and Fort St John's in British Columbia. and she dispersed past the Hinton. population and ended up almost at where. the the Fort St John's wolves were so. this little wolf 80 PB wolf showed us. that it's one continuous population from. Yellowstone almost to the Yukon wow it's. connected because it's a it's a walk.

about for a wolf it's not a big deal we. just didn't back back then we didn't. have the tools to document kind of those. long dispersals but I just read this. week that a wolf that showed up in. Colorado that was shot this year they. just did the DNA on it apparently pretty. recently and it was from the. Midwest think about that to Colorado wow. yeah so Midwest like Wisconsin yeah. Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan it just. said the Great Lakes region it didn't. just identify because they're all kind.

of the same but it was not it was not a. western wolf it was not from Wyoming or. Montana really interesting is there any. speculation as to why she went so far. north did so she was originally from a a. northern population the wolf that I'm. talking about 500 yeah she was born in. Glacier Park we caught her first as a. pup so we know where she was born we. know the Dan and then at about a year. and a half of age almost two she. dispersed that far and she didn't have. to go that far I mean if she wanted to.

find other wolves and start a pack or. join a pack she could have gone any. direction 50 or 100 miles and found. other wolves you know what if you tell. me why wolves do what they do and I'll. buy a lottery ticket I mean I don't know. how these things work I just don't know. so is that common that they would travel. that far it's becoming more and more. common so now that we have satellite. callers we've been using those for years. we can track them without having to stay. in touch physically with them in the old.

days we just had VHF callers and you had. to physically be there within range like. from an airplane or track them but now. that we got satellite colar I mean my. gosh we got wolves going from Washington. to Montana and one of the wolves from. Wyoming went all the way down to Arizona. to just north of the Grand Canyon wow. with the satellite collar was tracked. and then it turned around it started. home and it got shot in Utah this show. is sponsored by better help it's a it's. a really healthy good thing to talk.

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seriously it's a great thing to try scan. to get started or visit betterhelp.com. JRE today to get 10% off your first. month that's better. hp.com JRE so when they're doing this. and you track them how long do those. collar batteries. last well sadly for the VHF callers the. wolves generally die before the callers.

do because wolves don't live very long. and an average VHF caller lasts about. four years an average satellite caller. one to two years and I don't understand. why the technology is not better to. prolong some kind of a new battery CU. once you put all the trauma of going. through the wolf with a helicopter and. catching it or whatever you'd think they. could get some kind of a super battery. that would last a long time probably too. heavy heavy yeah and they're you know. wolves are on average 100 pounds and the. batteries are are pretty big but I'm.

waiting for Elon Musk to develop a super. radio Color battery well they're pretty. close to developing some pretty. spectacular Battery Technology I just. was reading about that yeah yeah they're. trying to implement it in automobiles. they're going to be able to do it I. think I believe Samsung is at the. Forefront of that ah yeah you know. because obviously they make batteries. for their phones and electronics and. things along those lines but yeah isn't. it a hydrogen battery or something crazy. I do not know I was just reading I'm so. I don't remember but yeah um so so. they're in this heavy collar and they.

they're good for about two years and a. wolf in the wild lives how long on a uh. that's a I always when I do have a talk. I ask audience who how how long do you. think the average wolf lives so if you. guess from the time they're visible from. the den emergence like you start to see. them at four weeks and a few die before. that until they die do you want to take. a a gaset I would be cheating cuz I. listened to the podcast I think it was. 4.3 years 4.3 years yeah Dr Randall got. that.

I think it was I was shocked I thought. they would live older cuz you know an. elk you know like a bull elk like if you. shoot a mature one there's seven eight. years old sometime I mean I shot one. that was 11 you did I bet the antlers. were getting smaller by that time yes. yeah they were and the teeth were worn. down almost nothing they're not they're. not evolved to live that long they just. aren't they usually die sooner because. they they burn up so much energy in. years of mating and breeding that they. get worn down and then you know they die. but the Wolves I mean in a zoo or. captive situation they can live to be.

15 like a dog yeah like a yeah but. they're that's extraordinary I think the. longest I had a wolf a wild wolf that I. knew her age because I caught her as a. pup and we we I captured recaptured her. and we tagged her 12 years that's. extremely long for an old wow 12 years. in the wild yeah there's a few in. Yellowstone that I got that old we had. one of mine that dispersed to Idaho and. he kind of interesting I caught him in. 1990. and he dispersed about a year later on.

his own went to Idaho in the middle of. the Frank Church River of nor turn. Wilderness there were no other Wolves at. that time and he just hung around we'd. see him once in a while by himself he. was a big male when I got him he was 111. pounds but this animal had to survive by. killing animals alone you think about it. that's crazy trying to pull down an elk. with your teeth is it because the old. males don't get accepted into a new pack. he went to where there weren't any.

wolves interestingly but he had a. success story CU he just waited it out. and when they reintroduced those wolves. into Idaho in '95 and 96 a little black. female wolf pops out of her crate and. just hits the road as fast as she can go. and she bumps into this wolf and they. set up at territory in Kelly Creek and. they became a breeding mating pair for. years and years till he died of old age. wow so he was just kind of chilling on. his own for years yeah how many years. four. wow and that would four years without.

seeing any other wolves without being. having helped to kill your food item. either that's what amazes me because he. could have gone to Montana and found. other wolves but he didn't was there any. understanding of what he was basically. because like they usually hunting packs. so it's probably very difficult for him. to take down anything larger than a fawn. or a deer so what was he what was he. eating I would guess he was killing elk. Cavs uh deer fawn some deer and if he. got lucky if he had a really deep snow.

winter it's the advantage of the Wolves. because they got big Snowshoe feet and. Elk you know punch through they got. little Shar but he did well whatever he. did we don't know we didn't we didn't. follow him that long we didn't pick up. scats it's just speculation but that I. mean they can kill a big elk but it's. it's they risk being killed every time. they have to take a meal like that right. they risk being dismembered too like. like broken legs and broken jaws and. getting kicked yeah I saw a video of a. wolf from Yellowstone last year had been.

kicked in the jaw by an elk and it had a. broken jaw that was hanging and a month. later a month month and a half it was. healed enough and it was in the process. of killing another elk and and wolves. came along and killed the wolf other. wolves what in his own pack obviously. but he survived that that's wow they're. tough and his jaw healed up and he got. enough food while his jaw was healing. yeah that's incredible I imagine he was. Scavenging around you know picking up on.

kills and whatever how is he even. chewing I don't know cuz not he's got a. fork you know like or a knife where you. can cut up the pieces he's got to bite. pieces off with a broken jaw it's mind. balling to me you know people think oh. wolves can just kill it well they can do. whatever they want they have a hard life. yeah they just they live in packs. because they're not very efficient. Killers you know Mount Lions. Bears they're a a more efficient. Predator especially a mount lion yeah.

and they got all the claws to hang on. but a wolf can only go with its teeth. and so it generally takes numerous. wolves to successfully hunt an animal. especially something big like a moose or. bison what a friend said to me so I. wanted to run this by you to find out if. this is true he said that mountain lines. are killing more elk because of wolves. because what happens is the mountain. line will kill the the elk but then the. wolf will scare the mountain line off. and steal it from him and so the. mountain line then goes and finds deer. finds another deer and so the mountain.

lines are killing more animals because. in the areas where Mountain lines and. wolves cohabitate the the wolves are. really good at chasing Mountain lines. off of kills that does happen and I I. saw some in Glacier Park too but to to. that end I'll say there are three times. more mountain lions than there are. wolves in Northwestern Montana really. three time two and a half to three it's. been documented so wow if you think. about that I would have never imagined. that yeah and M lines are on average a.

little bit bigger than wolves I don't. know if you've ever hunted them or not. but my God they're really I've never. hunted a mountain line but I saw one in. on yeah I saw one in Utah a couple years. back and it was a big one like 170 lb. one oh my gosh it was enormous did they. did they did they tree it with hounds no. no we were driving and uh we were about. 25 30 yards from it and uh my friend. stopped the truck and he said look at. the size of that cat it was under a tree. and it was just as Dawn or just as dusk. was happening so you could see his eyes.

glowing and so I'm in the front seat of. the car looking at him through 10x binos. and just getting a good look at his it. was. incredible they're they're beautiful. animals and I always think when I'm out. in the woods I got a little cabin way up. Northwest Montana I wonder how many. times mountain lions have watched me oh. been a lot I worry about mountain lions. they're stealthy I don't worry about. wolves yeah you should worry about. Mountain lines and you're out there by. yourself too right yeah a lot do you.

have uh like modern amenities up there. do you have satellite internet my little. cabin is 55 miles Off the Grid and it's. dry I don't have any water I don't have. electricity no electricity M it's way. off the grid but um I I built it I took. down an old historic Homestead and I. moved the logs up to where it sits you. come up you did it all yourself well no. no I had help with a lot of friends help. me over the years it took me 7 years.

from the time I got the logs and had. friends help me take it down till it was. livable wow long time because I when I. had money I didn't have time and when I. had time I didn't have money right for. building it so but eventually got it. done and a lot of friends very dear. friends help but I parred concrete and I. cut logs and you know I did everything. but um when I built the place where was. I going with this sorry you were just. talking about what it's like out there. no electricity no water so years I've. lived without and I haul water from the.

spring in the winter I melt the snow. because we get a lot of snow but three. three summers ago now I was there alone. and I fell down the heart the stairs all. the wooden stairs and I broke the top of. my foot and I said you know this isn't. going to be very fun for a while cuz I. got to close up the cabin and I have a. propane fridge and stove and I got to. undo the propane and empty the fridge. and I got a lot shutter cuz I'm not. going to be back I got a broken foot so. I'm hobbling around and I said okay now.

I'm going to get. starlink that was my motivator cuz if. IID had a phone I I could have called. somebody for help but I I didn't and I. couldn't so after that then I got on the. starlink they were still in the beta. development I think and anyway I got on. so I have starlink available to me at my. cabin but only when I choose to turn it. on it's not right like if you were to. email me or call me up there you. wouldn't get me and when I choose to. turn it on I'd get the messages so it's. kind of the best of all worlds but I. don't live there fulltime anymore I live.

in town that is actually The Best of. Both Worlds if you choose to turn it on. yeah right I brought a portable one up. with to Utah with me and it's like. smaller than this cigar box the new one. that's got the router with it it's. incredible ISC incredible it's just it's. so light I couldn't believe this was it. yeah and it works amazing just point it. at the sky and all of a sudden you're on. YouTube For Better or Worse For Worse. definitely for worse but it's uh you. know it allows me to call home and sure. talk people there's there's Goods to it.

but it sounds like living up there must. have been amazing but the water thing. sounds like a real issue there was no. way you could build a well I drilled. well I didn't hit water oh you only did. one I did two and I hit didn't hit water. twice but I'm on a creek I sit on a. bluff above a creek the water water's. about 90 to 100 feet straight below me. oh and I drilled my Wells 140 ft but. it's a really interesting limestone. Shale in the water I don't know how it.

works I even had a guy witch it for me. cuz I'm a scientist but what the hell it. might work right so they witch the spot. I didn't water so you say Wich are you. talking about with the sticks divining. rods is that what it is diving rods Is. that. real like I said I'm a scientist but if. it might help why not but uh I didn't. hit water it doesn't seem like it could. be. real I don't know I don't know either. but but people have been doing that for. a long time and it seems like a massive.

waste of. time Jamie see if you can find a video. of someone trying to find water with. divining rods if you haven't seen it. they they use two sticks right two. sticks sometimes metal but usually wood. like a willow or something and they. claim as they're walking around that the. sticks move they cross they cross when. you get to an area where there's water. you're a scientist tell me how that's. possible how could it be POS has anybody. ever analyzed like what. could be at play I I have to tell you I.

don't know and I'm kind of a skeptic on. that stuff but I I had somebody to do it. and we didn't hit water so it's okay so. here it is this guy's walking around. with these it looks like he's got those. are probably metal like coat hangers or. something. whoops right there Cod. hangers how is that possible I I don't. know and then just spins in his hands. that looks like they crossed and then. and then of course but then they're. going to go sink and well it might be. 2et it might be 200t I I don't know so.

he's walking he's not moving his hands. Bo they did wow it does really look like. they move on their own I you know there. may be people in the world who have some. kind of a gift they have their. electrical lights are different I don't. know how it works I have been told that. I can be a woman of Science and. Superstition at the same time yeah but. I'm not you science wins well I bet you. if you live in the woods a long time you. get a little bit of superstition a. little bit of intuition and a little bit. of you feel the woods a little bit.

differently than you could measure on a. scale I can think of twice only in my. life before I built my little cabin I. lived up this very even more remote. Outpost called mus City loc Le mus City. because it was not a city at all it was. a Old Homestead with a lot of empty. cabins twice up there I got this. feeling that there was something. dangerous. outside twice and H something just said.

to me don't go outside and I'm not. afraid of anything I mean I spent my. life dealing with wolves and grizzly. bears and and angry humans but I listen. to those feelings cuz I don't know any. different why not why not listen to it. like I think we have some primordial. part of our brains I don't know if. you've ever had that happen to you when. have been out walking or hunting I have. not okay no I've never had a moment. where I was terrified like something's. out here yeah and I have no idea what it. was but I've never had that feeling. around life I tend to think it was human.

I don't know if we oh you feel like. there was a human out there yeah I don't. know if we can smell and not register in. our forbrain what we detect maybe it's. really primitive I don't know I'm just. saying I had it happened twice if you're. not around any people and then all of a. sudden you feel a person I bet that kind. of per like any person that you run into. in the woods is scary it's weird like if. you I always said that everything in the. woods is scarier like if you saw a naked. baby in the woods you'd be like what's. that baby doing here ex nut baby just.

standing there looking at you You' be. like what the like there's. something weird about the woods in. general and if you if you were walking. through a mall and a man was walking. your way it's just another person like. hello hi you know you're at the park see. a guy normal but if you're in the middle. of nowhere in the woods and you see. another person there's this moment where. you're like what's this guy up to who is. he what's he doing is he dangerous yeah.

and I think that's cuz we're all raised. in an urban environment more or less. nowadays and so having lots of people. around is normal but to have one person. in a pretty remote area we we don't. experience that very often anymore but. there's also no one that's going to help. you there like if you're at the mall. it's very difficult for someone get away. with attacking you right if you're alone. in the woods there is this weird like if. you're some crazy serial killer guys out. there like and you you know you're. backpacking you're like uhoh like now. I'm at the mercy of this person if. they're crazy. I have a chapter in my book early in the.

book where I describe an event that I'm. basically been a real private person all. my life until this book came out and. once I wrote this book I had to bring up. stories that are very personal to me and. I had an event one night that was. terrifying probably the most terrifying. thing that's ever happened in my life it. involved humans so yeah I totally get. that people in places where they. shouldn't be do you want to read it do. you want me to spoil it you want me to. do the spoiler thing or well we're.

talking about it okay I'll just give you. the elevator speech part of it okay so I. was in my cabin at night and the dog. started growling I had I had very big. dogs I always have dogs and I looked out. my window and it was winter and it was C. and I could see a couple of guys out. there lurking around and I was in the. middle of nowhere and then it kind of. digressed from there. so I.

amum I for the only first and only time. in my life I pulled a gun on these guys. really yeah I was in danger what were. they doing out there well they came to. pay me a visit they knew who you were. they called me by name which was really. freaky so you think somebody in the. woods walking around scary wait till you. see somebody who you don't know who it. is and they call you by your first name. that's freaky and what did they. want I didn't find out cuz I pulled a. gun on them. wow I drove him off and it was.

terrifying to me at the it was not. terrifying at the moment because I was. absolutely focused like Predator Focus. calm but after they left they started to. shake and yeah yeah kind of after the. adrenaline surge happened were were they. menacing were they yeah yeah to me but. with the way they were communicating. with. you they were drunk oh oh yeah it wasn't.

good and so how did they know who you. were do you know oh it's a long story. but I was I was working up there I was. kind of a novelty a young blonde woman I. was only about 25 um living alone. studying wolves and a time there were. other people coming and going studying. wolves but at that winter I was alone. and I had been working um it's a long. story I was working behind the custom. station right on the Canadian border and. they were hauling logs down out of.

Canada bringing in the custom station. they would have to transfer the logs to. an American Truck and then the Canadian. trucks to go back and I temporarily took. a job as a knot bumper at the log D deck. Landing which means my job was to run a. chainsaw trim off the branches trim the. the length of the log to exactly fit the. log bed anyway so I was around so these. loggers knew who I was and I was you. know I was cordial enough but was two of. those guys.

oh yeah and I don't I never told the. story till I wrote this book and I just. thought it's a part of me that's very. personal it's a part of me that I. learned from it's never happened again. um and I had one old logger old Bob he. saw me on the road the next day I was. pretty shook up and he stopped we. chatted often and um he had seen a wolf. he'd taken a picture of it so anyway we. chat and he says so I hear he had some. visitors last night I looked it up CU.

he's up in his log truck I said yeah he. says you don't have to worry that won't. happen again he's kind of watching out. for me oh that's nice yeah cuz we had. kind of befriended each other cuz he'd. spotted this wolf and he'd taken. pictures of it anyway he yeah so how did. he find out that you had had visitors. the logger Network the CB radios I don't. know I didn't tell anybody but he knew. right away H yeah it's humans that you. have to be scared totally yeah yeah so.

anyway you asked that's there's no. serial killer Mountain lines right they. just have a purpose in nature yeah they. just kill cuz they they kill cuz they. eat well that's what their job is people. are weird sign about there being weird I. love that yeah especially men uh men in. the woods are scary so when you were. living out there how many years did you. live out there by yourself well off and. on so when I arrived there I joined a. team of young researchers we studying. wolves and grizzly bears and we helped.

each other with their work so we're. studing all that um and then when we ran. out of funding then I was up there alone. for about three years but other than. that there were people coming yourself. for three years well I had two dogs I. wasn't totally alone and people were. coming and going seasonally I had summer. help and I had winter help certainly. there wasn't people there on the. shoulder season so does that get lonely. you know it's interesting CU it didn't. really I. back when I was younger uh I was a bit.

of a misanthrope and I liked being alone. and when I was alone being alone is. different than being lonely it just is. now as an older. person yeah I'm I feel different about. people I'm more engage with people I. enjoy people so yeah I get lonely now. but I didn't back then I mean how could. you be lonely you're living in the. Majestic mountains and Wilderness of. Glacier National Park and everything is. new and there's tracks to find and on. and on and on well it's amazing stuff. but I I would be lonely I I like to be.

around people well that that's why. you're really good at what you do. because you're a social person you like. to engage in conversation but I didn't. used to be that way you would wanted to. have interviewed me 30 years ago let's. put it that way really N I bet we would. have worked out it have been all right. but I it would have worked out I'm more. conversational now I mean it's just I. would have been fascinated by who you. were then because I'd be fascinated by a. person who doesn't want to talk to. people. like if I could just peel back the.

layers of the onions to find out what. that's like like because I would imagine. there's a very different relationship. with nature when it's just you and. nature Alone by yourself for prolonged. periods of time it's very different than. taking a a jaunt taking a weekend. Excursion hiking you know even camping. for a week it's there's there's a big. difference between that and living there. for. years yes and it's sort of like it's.

like when I go I go up to my cabin for a. visit now I I'm no longer live there. full-time but I live there a couple of. months a year maybe three maybe usually. two when I go up it takes me like 3 to. four days to decompress and get back. into the mode of oh I can't I can't call. oh I can't go on the internet do I want. to hook up this darling no go out and. just sit outside and have a cup of tea. and and listen to the Crick and then. think about what you're going to do for. the day go on a hike but it takes me a. few few days now to get to that frame of.

mind it doesn't it's not instant anymore. so I've changed who I am for sure and. then once you get to that frame of mind. then you can just like today we're going. to go on a hike is bring the dogs just. go walk around enjoy yourself whatever. wow yeah and were were you living off. the land were you catching fish for food. and hunting for food like how are you. getting your supplies I did that but um. I bought stuff in town and I would buy a. lot in November while I could still. Drive in cuz sometimes in the winter you. couldn't drive in anymore so I would.

stock up and buy you know 3 400 lbs of. dog food and bulk supplies of flour and. oats and and I canned back then I. actually did some canning I don't now I. don't have time I don't care about it I. can buy Cann peaches or whatever but I I. and I never grew a food Garden because. of the bears oh yeah see I didn't want. to attract Grizzlies right so I didn't. grow food except lettuce how often did. you run into them up there they're.

always there but you don't see them very. often so it's sort of like all the wild. things that are up there are pretty wild. and and there weren't a lot of people up. there and now everybody's discovered. Montana and there's people everywhere. it's so interesting because our senses. are so dull compared to theirs we move. so slow and we're so loud and we're so. clunky they see us a mile away they. smell us a mile away they know exactly. where you are and most of the time they. just avoid us totally true and I mean.

I've just come back from bird hunting I. just was 31 days on the road and I just. got home three days ago and now I'm here. and I was out bird hunting with friends. and I said I told them I said so when I. hunt with my pointers I got a graffan. and a wire hair I said don't talk don't. call the dog's name don't holler about. just just watch and enjoy and smell and. feel what goes on and Trust the dogs if. you see them getting birdie get ready. cuz so many times you hunt with people.

and they're they're hacking their dog. they're calling they're hollering. they're talking to you about something. going on over here hey did you watch the. the Vikings game well nobody watches the. Vikings game anyway did you watch this. or it's like we out there seeking a. smart bird that has. ears watch the. dogs so I I feel that way when I'm out. living in the wild too with out hiking. I'm not going to see elk or Bears or. even Fox if you're yammering away way. right that's why I like being alone yeah.

that is part of the problem with people. we do like to talk just to just be. reassured exactly yeah yeah you know and. it it's fun to interact I mean but even. when I go to Yellowstone I go to. Yellowstone at least a couple times a. year to watch wolves I love the wolf. Watchers they're so enthusiastic but. something's going on and you can't take. a video cuz. everybody's y yep yep yeah yeah even if. the wolves are hauling you have to go sh. I went to Yellowstone a few years back.

with my family and I I felt like it was. very weird i' I've I felt like I'm. enjoying my daughters were really young. at the time I'm enjoying that they're. seeing bears and they're seeing well we. didn't see Bears we did see they had. there is this place in Montana that has. this grizzly bear uh preserve it's like. a place where they take care of bears so. they would like feed them Frozen. watermelons which is crazy to watch a. bear chew through a frozen water like. it's a grape wow they just go right.

through it it's a frozen watermelon W. and they just like it's nothing y but uh. we did see a lot of elk and a a bunch of. bison and the elk was strange because. I'm sure you know this but for the. people at home elk uh understand that. wolves don't come to these community. centers these areas where you know. there's vending machines and buildings. so the elk are all over the place out. there yeah on the Lawns yeah so I don't. know I don't know if I put it on. Instagram I think I did I took a selfie.

with a a cow elk that was like 40 feet. from me just lying there and she wasn't. worried about me at all and I was trying. to tell my kids I was like this never. happens this is weird it's weird that. they've become so habitualized to being. around cars and people they just know. the people it's safe when you're around. these people so they just hang out there. that's probably at Mammoth Gardener area. that happens all the time time up there. well it happens in Colorado too like in.

Evergreen you know you see them there's. like these huge herds of elk that walk. down the middle of the street in. Evergreen cuz they know there's no. mountain lines in the middle of the. street Predators right and so they just. like in the Rut they're walking down the. street and there's like 30 40 elk and. they stop traffic and they're sitting on. people's Lawns and it's wild sounds like. bamp the same thing happened to the. wolves in Yellowstone because they were. taken from Canada where they don't see. people and they had never had exposure. to livestock they're very wild at first.

and then they can't get away from humans. so after a while they just start. disregarding people and like if they. have to cross the road there's a wolf. jam and everybody's crowding with their. cars and they're trying to bring their. pups across the road to a better spot. and they can't even get through because. of everybody so they they get kind of ly. fair about it and they get used to. people conditioned or habituated and. that's passed On to the Next Generation. next and and then when they leave the. park and they go outside the park and.

they walk down some some open public. land spot where there's a hunter with a. rifle they don't think anything about it. so they're pretty easy targets that's. unfortunate the the habitualization is. unfortunate because like you just want. to see them in the wild you don't want. to see them in an intersection I know. and yeah it it's tough and the. unfortunate thing is uh a couple of. years ago there were 25 Yellowstone. wolves killed just outside of the park. because they're used to people and they. wander around anyway that's like out of.

a hundred so it's about a quarter of the. population and there were a couple of. particular individual wolves that were. very well recognized and loved by the. wolf masses and photographed and they. got killed and this this just went viral. and these huge hatred for these people. who shot these wolves because they were. so special and I make the point one I. give talks and stuff I said you know if.

you really feel that strongly you should. really be concerned because every year. there's about 300 wolves shot that way. in Montana but you don't know them. they're not famous they have just as. important of lives they live die eat. breathe get injured heal up the same as. these movie star wolves in Yellowstone. and you should feel that way about all. wolves in my mind my mind well that was. the case with Cecil de liion you. remember the dentist you die in a. dentist kill. yeah they named him and so when they Nam.

and I remember after Cecil got killed. another line got killed and they thought. it was Jericho who was Cecil's brother. and there was this story like oh my God. they killed Jericho Cecil's brother and. then they realized that Jericho was not. dead so that oh it's fine Jericho is. still okay but that lion is just a lion. you didn't name him but that's still. another lion but because it's not this. named Lion's brother who also has a name.

no one cared exactly that's so bizarre. it is bizarre I than you for. understanding that I forgot about say so. but like when we were first monitoring. the wolves in Glacier there was just a. handful and we would catch them and we. would give them names because it's. easier like Phyllis was wolf 8550 and. Mojave was wolf 8963 they had both names. and numbers and so when we did our. scientific papers and reports we used to. number because we were told by the. officials that we don't want you to name.

the animals cuz what happens when. Phyllis kills a cow if that happens. right then you can't manage Phyllis so. we we went along with it but we used the. names and we did the scientific stuff. with numbers but then when you go into. the park people would want to know. what's going on you talk about these. different wolf numbers 8654 and they say. well who is that oh that's Aspen oh yeah. and they would know by the name so. whatever works well then all of a sudden. they become like a pet. even more like a majestic wild pet like.

it's a different thing it's a pet that's. this iconic North American you know apex. predator yes and I know the wolves and. Yellowstone they don't have names they. have numbers but they're so identifiable. by 9007 or whatever that it becomes like. a name right even though it's still a. number but if you shoot 9007 it's not as. rude as if you shoot Jake right Jake the. wolf you know it's like A Jero yeah yeah. Michael Michael you know you name a wolf. human name and all sudden you shouldn't. shoot it anymore which is just a weird.

anthropomorphization thing right yeah. know it's been interesting to me because. I for my career I've I've done. everything my first year my first job I. worked up in northern Minnesota in a. little tiny 300 person farming community. and I was hired us fish and wildy. service to go in and. help prevent livestock deportation and. when wolves killed cattle or sheep to go. in and remove which tra and hallway they. were euthanized and when there weren't.

depredations to go out and and um. research trap and put collar on the. other wolves and it was I mean this was. big big stuff for a girl from. Minneapolis styed and pretty naive to go. up and save the folks of North home from. the Wolves you know yeah oh my God it. was such an important summer for me to. learn professionally and personally um. and I wrote about that but I learned a. lot and it was interesting work but I.

realized yeah wolves can cause conflicts. for people and it was a New Concept for. me so when they captured the wolves and. they removed them why did they euthanize. them why didn't they just relocate them. well they would be me because I was the. one catching and dropping me well. obviously someone was telling you what. to do though right right so I had to. bring them to the this the main office. in Grand Rapids Minnesota where they. were euthanized so prior to that in 1978. you couldn't euthanize wolves they. changed the status of from endangered to.

threatened and so when they were. threatened then under Endangered Species. Act you could actually euthanize them. and they didn't translocate them this is. a really good question because they. found over the years with studies in. Minnesota and eventually in Montana too. that when you translocate or move a wolf. who's causing a problem that wolf very. very rarely survives to reproduce. because it gets killed by wolves it. comes back to depredate again it moves. onto another farmer Ranch and does it.

again they they don't generally survive. and so it was determined that it makes. officials feel good to move them and it. it's a good facade for the public to. believe in but sometimes it results in a. pretty prolonged and inhumane existence. for a few months or year till they die. anyway so yeah it's is it because. they're habitualized to start praying on. cattle it's tough once they learn to. take cattle or sheep it's tough to to.

break that pattern let's put it that way. CU it's so easy well yeah I mean if it. was me out there walking around and I. had a choice between a deer that's going. to kick me right in the teeth or taking. the cow I'd pick the slow Dumb groceries. every time just me of course of course. and if they know the groceries are all. penned up exactly yeah so it's a it's a. difficult Challenge and wolves are. continuing to expand everywhere in the w. West the Midwest Europe and so there's.

more and more challenges and a lot of. the the early excitement about wolves. has changed into a bitter battle Yeah. it's a it's a really interesting complex. battle because there's a lot of hunters. that do not like the reintroduction of. wolves yes because and they'll say that. the the elk populations are down and. they they're down dramatically in. Montana because of the reintroduction. which was in 1996. when when did they 95 996 and then 96.

997 those Winters so but the reality is. it's not natural to not have those. Predators there and you're going to get. an overpopulation of elk and that's. going to lead to starvation and. disease yes and so kind of the the the. die was cast when those wolves were. removed and basically by the 1930s there. really weren't viable populations in the. west anymore there were wolves here or. there in a pack here or there but there. weren't thousands and and they went into.

inside the national park so they have a. picture in many books of Rangers with. cute little wolf pups that are like. seven eight weeks old and they took the. pictures this was in 1926 and then they. killed them all so they even removed all. the Predators within national parks so. people historic memory you know we have. really short memories historic memory of. say for example the northern range. Northern herd uh range of elk out of. Garder it was about 20,000 before the. Wolves were.

introduced way over caring capacity elk. were starving the Brows lines as high up. as they could reach they ate everything. they could eat they were paying people. that people were being paid to come in. and kill Dar and elk and then they. started the late hunting seasons out of. gardener which I went in because my. boyfriend had a time had a tag and they. just have a shooting line in February. and kill kill all these elk because they. aren't going to make it anyway and you. shoot a starving cow in February. wow cuz it wasn't Predators so then when. the Wolves came back two things happened.

number one it was a new new Predator but. number two in the winter of. 9697 we had some of the deepest snows. ever recorded in in the mountains ever. and so many of the herd died from. snowfall and I've have hunters tell me. yeah the population elk from went from. 20,000 to 10,000 in two years to damn. those wolves and it's like do you think. 35 wolves killed 10,000 come on let's. just do the math a minute yeah that is.

the problem with these people that don't. have a nuanced perspective on what's. happening because they have a vested. interest in it being a problem that the. wolves are keeping them from being able. to be successful on an elk hunt right. and I'm a Hunter I get it yeah but the. the die offs are huge like the the place. that I was just telling you about before. the podcast that I was in in Utah yeah. they lost 80% of their mu deer. population a year ago from what snow. Yeah and and so real bad winter yeah. yeah bad and winter die offs are a big.

thing it's a big thing I would say to. best of my knowledge is a biologist that. winter die off is the limiting factor. for ulate herds it's not lions and bears. and wolves and humans and cars every so. often every 20 years or whatever you get. a massive winter die off and it takes. quite a while for those populations to. build back up yeah Predators can keep. that at a lower rate they cannot affect. it you know I have to think back to the. people say about wolves killing all the.

deer now and I think if you look to. statistics at Montana and Wyoming which. both have had a lot of wolves for a. couple decades they're giving away more. elk permits I just was reading they. proposed unlimited elk permits in. Wyoming and Montana's got basically in. most of its management units more elk. than ever and I just say there's more. going on than wolves and to point your. finger at wolves all the time you need. to look at habitat you need to look at. access issues you know there's a lot of. places where Hunters want to go shoot. these elk but they're on large private.

ranches and you can't get on them. including landlocked public land where. you there is public land where you're. allowed to hunt there but you can't get. there right you'd have to fly in in a. helicopter in a lot of places that's. illegal right and so there's all this. talk of for people that don't. know there's what one one of the things. that happens is a thing called Corner. Crossing yeah so there might be a piece. of public land that you're allowed to. hike into and then there's a small area.

it could be a very small area just a few. yards even MH of private land that you. are going to have to cross in order to. get into the next piece of public land. but people block access to that because. these people that have these ranches and. most of them probably don't even live. there and a bunch of wealthy people. they're terrified that someone's going. to go through that and then go into. their private land they don't want to. give people the access at all to their. private land so they stop these Corner. Crossings and it's a giant disaster.

because then you have these areas that. are public land that should be available. to all of us and no one can get in there. right I mean if if the if the viewers. can think of imagining a checkerboard. and you're trying to get from one black. Square to the next Black square but you. have to step over a tiny piece of white. square right to get there right yeah. it's being battled in court right now. yeah yeah it's a disaster if I owned the. land I would carve out a big p paway and. and give it to the public yeah why if.

you have 50,000 Acres out there whatever. the hell you have why is it so hard to. take a few acres and just make a path. but you're not most land owners I mean. it seems so simple I know it's like the. simplest of you just make some sort of. an easement well when that would be good. and some some ranchers do but many. people been in this business four or. five generations on their family ranch. and they've had bad experiences of. hunters that come in and cut their.

fences shoot their cows leave their. gates open and they just say I'm done. I'm closed and they get really angry I. just hunted on a guy's Ranch um about a. week ago up in North C uh Central. Montana and he owns 60 sections that's. 60 square miles of land which may not be. a big place in Texas but for most of the. rest of the world that's huge it's huge. and we he gave us permission but he had. to tell us all the challenges he's had. and he had a big sign don't even ask. basically but right but I know that he I.

know from I know he was going to let us. cuz some other friends of mine had. hunted there so he but he had all these. heartburns over things that had happened. to him Hunters gave him a really bad. taste in their mouth and I there I as a. single individual person can't do a lot. about it and I'd like to see you know. hunting organizations there many really. good ones help promote better Hunter. behavior and better Hunter landowner. relationships you you would be very. generous to do that but most people will.

not give an easan well I would. understand that if you've been burned a. few times and people have poached on. your land and and there's this attitude. that people who don't have anything and. they see someone who has so much and. like screw this guy I'm just going to go. on his property look the elk are right. there over the ridge 400 yards away y. let's just go over there shoot those elk. he won't even know we'll pack it out. that happens yeah and then they get. caught and then this guy's like God damn. it they're poaching on my land and then. he hates Hunter. Hunters are like everybody else there's.

people that are amazing plumbers and. they're real honest and they work hard. and they're sweethearts and you're happy. to hire them and call them and there's. people that are just liars and they're. Crooks it's just like any other group of. people anything else exactly exactly and. I know in my business with the Wolves. I've always tried to be very transparent. I'm very honest and if somebody asks me. a question I'll give them the best. information I have if I don't own an. answer I'll say I don't know but you. know you could call son so who's maybe. had the experience with that I got. nothing to hide by being dishonest or or.

trying to sell somebody it's like. hunting impacts of wolves on Hunting it. it you look at populations and they go. like this all the time and sometimes. wolves caus it sometimes not sometimes. it's winter sometimes it's accumulation. of lions and bears and wolves but it's. like the stock market people want to see. it do this well it's like the climate. exactly nobody wants to admit to that. either they hate looking at long-term. data I know it when people want to talk. about the sky is falling well it's.

actually. not look at it over a long period of. time and you see this trend has always. existed and in fact this is one of the. cooler times in history we're we're. facing interesting times it's bizar. ideological I think the the hardest. thing is so much social media everything. goes on instantly and whether it's true. or not everything goes on instantly and. everything is ideologically connected. you know there's people that just don't.

want any animals ever killed ever and. there's people that want no predators. and the easiest hunts possible and they. don't have a nuanced perspective of the. ecosystem of what biology is and like. what these animals there's a whole world. that they live in and this world is like. interdependent there's so many things. going on and so people like I remember. there was a documentary that came out uh. how wolves changed rivers in Yellowstone.

and uh they made this incredibly Rosy. picture of wolves coming in and it. brought in beavers and they changed the. rivers and the lakes and everything was. better and it's like no not really no. it's there's a lot going on all the time. and to like to single out this one. aspect of this ecosystem and say this is. the cause of this there's a lot of. different causes a lot going on yes and. that that film or the video ran viral.

big time but there's no one species. that's going to make or break the world. except maybe people but but in terms of. the impacts no and it's been shown since. that video came out the movie that that. might be true in a short time period in. small places but it's not the global. picture for Yellowstone Park wolves have. not saved the planet they just haven't. it's just not that simple well what they. have done though is brought some balance. right I think yes they brought so they.

you can go either way and I think people. who are out on either. extreme can actually make people in the. middle more involved with conservation. efforts like that guy with the movie. well it's a Rosy story and pieces of it. may be true in certain places for for a. temporal or spatial time period but then. there's the guy in where was it Daniels. Wyoming who roed over that wolf in the. snowmobile and crippled it you heard. about this didn't you that's a terrible.

and then he brought it back crippled to. the bar taped its mouth up and had it in. the bar so people could be entertained. for an hour before they took it out back. and shot it now that's a pretty horrific. thing whether it's a deer a m line or. now horrible any. animal but that horrific act got a lot. of people in the middle fired up to. become more strong conservationist so. I'm sorry that that happened but on the. other hand it brings a lot of awareness. to people people who are not aware of. the level of capacity of people to be.

stupid and evil and that's evil that. when I saw the photos of the wolf I'm. like that is an evil act right like that. thing is Inc that's an incredible animal. you know and you have no right to do. that and if you crippled it if you. crippled it with a snowmobile the right. thing to do is to call someone or have. it euthanized yeah shoot it or call. someone have it shoot but to drag it to. a bar is just sick well I mean he ran it. over intentionally and he had a gun oh. he did it in had a gun no he it was all. for show and it well that's the level of.

vitall that people have towards wolves. is very strange and I think it goes back. to like the Little Red Riding Hood and. you know the big bad wolf and there's. just like this thing that we have in our. mind that we don't have for other. Predators we don't have it for Bears we. don't have it for cats no it's weird. right I thought about this a lot so why. wolves um what's the deal with wolves. why does it create that if you look at. the facts I mean elk coyotes Lions Bears.

all Coke machines whatever kill people. lightning every year lots of people. wolves it would be a very rare. experience it occasionally happens but. it's so much rarer than everything else. and yet people don't hate lions or. grizzly bears I have a theory okay let's. hear I think it's a historical thing I. think wolves are not a problem when you. deal deal with civilization when you. deal with uh Agriculture and people have.

guns and people have land and they have. property but I think at one point in. time it was a much bigger deal when. there were larger populations of them. and they would hunt people they would. attack people you you aware of the the. World War I story about him eating. corpses well not just that about the the. Germans and the Russians having a. ceasefire because so many people were. getting eaten by wolves that they had. see they actually I talked to Steve. reell about it once and he didn't he. wasn't even sure if it was true so they. actually researched it and found out it.

was true and they wrote an article on. meteor about it no way so I haven't seen. it so the story I don't remember where I. heard it from but the story was you know. the thing about war especially trench. warfare the horrific nature of it is. that you don't necessarily always kill. people you shoot them and hurt them and. wound them and these wolves were aware. that these people were living in these. trenches and that they were wounded and. so they smelled blood and they came in. and there was so many instances of. people getting dragged out of the. trenches by packs of wolves and there.

were so many instances of uh parties. going out like two or three men and then. they just find a boot with a foot in it. and they realize like oh boy an animal's. gotten them and so they decided to have. a ceasefire between the Russians and the. Germans to just to get together and kill. the Wolves before they go back to. killing each other I'll have to look. that up cuz I I haven't actually heard. it see if you can find that article I. believe it's on meater.com I'd like to. know know where the references are. thanks was there a ceasefire during. World War I to hunt wolves but I want to.

know what the references for the story. were I think it's the New York Times. okay multiple newspapers in 1917 report. this story including the El Paso Herald. Oklahoma City Times and New York Times. since then it's become a favorite bit of. barroom banter among amateur historians. oh like me Joe Rogan uh February 19 it. says it there February 1917 A dispatch. from Berlin noted large packs of wolves. moving into populated areas of the. German Empire and the forest of. Lithuania and I don't know how to say. that word vinia Bia how would you say.

that word close enough locals. hypothesized the war effort displaced. the Wolves so the canine started seeking. out new hunting grounds the hungry. wolves infiltrated rural Villages. attacking Cales sheep goats and in two. cases children they also showed up in. the front lines feeding on the fallen. and sometimes taking advantage of. incapacitated Fighters parties of. Russians and German Scouts met recently. and were hotly engaged in a skirmish. when a large pack of wolves dashed on. the scene and attacked the wounded. reported a 1917 Oklahoma City Times. article hostilities were at once.

suspended and Germans and Russians. instinctively attacked the pack killing. about 50 wolves so these are one of the. things that happens in Russia is you get. these super packs I'm sure you've heard. about those where um they've had. problems with them descending on whether. it's a cattle ranch or horses they've. taken out. horses poison rifle fire hand grenades. and even machine guns were successfully. tried in attempts to eradicate the the. nuisance according to 1917 New York. Times article but all to no avail the.

Wolves nowhere to be found quite so. large and Powerful as in Russia were. desperate in their hunger and regardless. of danger yeah I'm I'm reading it too I. just would say you a little skeptical. I'm very. skeptical um number one there weren't it. says though seemingly far-fetched it. turns out these claims are mostly. accurate historians estimate that. soldiers killed hundreds of wolves. during the war and that the surviving. wolves fled to escape a Carnage like of. which they had never encountered click. on that link what is. that but we're looking at news stories.

from 110 years ago I know look at that. 1917 right wild I'm just saying you a. little skeptical well no I'm not a. little skeptical I'm very skeptical very. they will they lie in the news now but. it seems like something happened I don't. think they made up the fact that they. all got together and shot wolves and. have you have you read about Russian. super packs of wolves no no okay. but but this is recently okay within a. few years ago there was a problem with.

uh these super packs where they I don't. remember what the theory was as to why. they had formed such large packs but. there was large packs of up to a 100. wolves that were going into. Farms so my question about the story and. I I'm not I'm not I'm just saying. skeptical 2010 2011 a super pack of. wolves numbering up to 400 reportedly. terrorized the Russian town of boy good.

luck with that word sounds like a vodka. verco. voco U population. 1300 um Guinness book Guinness Book of. World Records Northern it's like. Wikipedia no they're a little better. than that one Wikipedia sketch one of. the remotest inhabited areas of the. northern hemisphere more than 30 horses. were killed in Just 4 days and I. remember reading about this in 2010 um. it said um according to local officials.

teams of hunters were established to. patrol neighborhoods and shoot the. wolves on site animal experts suspicious. of the claim say that wolves usually. form packs of no more than 10 to 15. animals although the particularly harsh. Winters may have killed off the Wolves. usual prey forcing them to attack larger. animals this is a this was multiple. sources had this story and I remember it. about a decade or so ago well I'd love. to look up more detail but I can tell I. can tell you about I can't tell you. about the new source and I I'm not not. familiar with that and I don't read that.

kind of stuff usually but if it's true. it's true I I don't happen to believe. it's true but what I can tell you about. the true about wolf biology is wolves. live in packs that are generally a. family group they have a genetic. investment in their pack members there's. oftentimes one or two that aren't. related and they defend that territory. to the death whether there's five of. them or 25 of them and that would be a. large pack the largest pack I've ever. heard of in was in Yellowstone I think. was 34 CU three females head pups so to. have 400 wolves move together is why.

would they do that what's the benefit to. them they're they're they're gathering. collaborating with animals that aren't. related to them that have no genetic. benefit to see them each survive and. normally packs that are not related kill. each other it's the biggest cause of. mortality in Yellowstone Park is wolves. killing non-p pack members wolves are. very very intelligent though I know. extremely intelligent and could you. imagine a scenario where resources were. so diminished that wolves recognized.

that killing each other had no benefit. and that moving together as a group they. could do something to these Farms so. like if you are a pack of 400 wolves and. you choose to attack horses that seems. to me a lot more success than three. wolves or five wolves I you're saying. but you asked what I believe it and I. tell you know I wouldn't believe it this. is based on your real life lived. experience but I wouldn't believe it but. things do vary according to very unusual. circumstances in terms of the.

environment right so if there were if. there were 400 wolves that were starving. they would. starve I mean unless they knew that they. were horses you're giving them some. human reasoning skills they don't think. like humans do they just don't and I'm. I'm sorry I'm not don't be I'm not. calling you a liar read the story I'm. just saying I don't I'd have to. investigate that but I'm I'm 100%. skeptical on it just because of. everything that I'm familiar with but it. doesn't you know it stuff happens I have.

no pun intended no dog in the race dog. to fight but my my thought is that in. perhaps unusual circumstances like. Siberia where it's so incredibly harsh. that if you do find a population that. had been surviving because there was a. sufficient amount of wildlife for them. to kill and then all a sudden there. wasn't but there was Farms they might. kind of like descend on these farms and. perhaps not even fight for resources.

because they realized there was no. benefit in that you asked me just said I. don't believe it so I hear you bet I. don't have anything to contribute. further on that I guess you're just a. science Den that's okay Diane I'm a. science Den there you go I like that is. that a fun thing to call people that's. great it's such a horrible thing to say. to people like what are you saying um. when you uh so what is the largest that. you've observed the largest pack that. you observed I have only observed. probably 15 but that's not Yellowstone. that's in my history and I know in. Yellowstone like I said I know one year.

to get up to 34 and I think the probably. the largest I've ever heard of being. recorded that I I know as fact to it. might be 40 but that's extremely unusual. and is that Yellowstone as well might be. Canada I'm trying to remember my source. I can't remember but 34 in Yellowstone. that's unusual think the large number in. Yellowstone was because of the unusual. circumstances of the reintroduction in a. bunch of animals that weren't used to. having wolves around yes I think well. three things happened three different. females had pups on average they have.

six six pups seven pups so there's. recruiting right there 18 20 pups right. there in addition to the adults that. were there they had a good year they had. lots of prey and so all those pups. presumably made it to their first year. so for one winter they were a huge pack. and then mortality happens it's that. wolves are not designed to live in packs. of 34 I I mean packs in the Midwest. where the prey is smaller and the wolves. are smaller they live in smaller packs. in Montana Wyoming.

Idaho average pack might be somewhere. between 10 and. 15 and every year you got remember every. year they have six to seven popups and. by the next spring they're back down. that's six or seven through mortality or. dispersal or whatever happens hunting. yeah so stuff happens yeah it's a hard. life it is a hard life other thing I've. Heard lots of people well I've heard. several people and people I know quite. well tell me stories about they.

encountered a wolf or they encountered a. wolf pack and they were really. frightened because they were they had. their dog with them and that wolves were. interested in the dog like a little Carl. there or something and and the Wolves. were circling around and these people. were terrified and when they told me the. start two people they told me this story. and they said yeah they could have. killed. me and my result my response is. yeah easily but but you're here telling. me this story right so it's not very.

common for woles to tech people that's. just what I'm not anymore not anymore. and I don't know how good the reporting. was way back when so but way back when. if you think about people that were. living in a time where there was no guns. M or at the very least muskets and. you're dealing with people that are. completely isolated and you're dealing. with harsh climates like the. homesteaders yeah and there might be a. time where the the food source for the.

Wolves is diminished mhm the. homesteaders didn't really have a. problem with Wolves though attacking. people right that's what I'm saying. right when we had time but they had guns. they had guns they had poisons they had. traps they had livestock they had. children that's just what I'm seeing in. this country right with probably a h i. don't mean to be offensive but a better. base of information with all the. opportunity in the world for all those. things you just set up remote living no. no protection harsh winners like the. winner of Charlie Russell paintings.

where all the cattle were starving you. didn't have packs of 400 wolves coming. in and killing every I'm just saying. right but isn't that a different. environment than Siberia Siberia is UN. those homesteaders have you ever seen um. word and herzog's documentary um happy. people life in the tiger yeah isn't it. amazing it's beautiful incredible it's. beautiful I just actually watched it. within the last year I thought about. that when I was thinking about you. living Alone by yourself like that's how. those people did they would go out there. and they would just go with a dog and.

they would uh go live by themselves in. these cabins that they had fortified for. the entire winter MH and just live out. there amongst W and they loved it they. all loved it they all couldn't wait to. get out there and how many were killed. by wolves none none but again. Tigers they have that's Tigers awesome. Predators on people yeah oh yeah well. Siberian tigers are they like known to. kill people. yeah are they I trying remember the name. of the book I read it might just be. called tiger I'm trying to remember the.

name but it's a story of a a predatory. tiger and these guys a story of the. Tiger's life and how they go to finally. try and kill it it's terrifying story in. Siberia it's true story yeah and it's. modern times there's something super. scary about a tiger in the snow oh my. God a cat that's 600 lb stalking you in. the snow I know no thank you no thank. you oh no yeah it's just a matter of. whether or not you Zig when you should. have zagged and you're in the wrong spot. land where he's at yes and I think that. tiger had an injury that was caused by.

humans and that's often the case there. was it wasn't able to hunt real. proficiently or in the according I mean. when you're reading the book you get the. they get the drift that it it had a. Vengeance against humans because it was. injured and so I would imagine that's. probably the case too it could be just. as they're scared if they survive a. situation uh the C the story Vladimir. marov a poacher who met a Grizzly end. the winter of 1997 after he shot and. wounded a tiger and then stole a part of. the Tiger's kill the injured tiger.

hunted marov down in a way that appears. to be chillingly chillingly premeditated. the tiger stalked out markov's cabin. systematically destroyed anything that. had marov scent on it and then waited by. the front door for marov to come home. wow yeah there's no doubt that animal. according to the story here definitely. had Vance on its mind wow it was an. impulsive response Valiant says the. tiger was able to hold this idea over a. period of time the animal waited for 12. to 48 hours before attacking when marov.

finally appeared the tiger killed him. dragged him to the bush and ate him the. eating may have been secondary Valiant. explained I think he killed him just. because he had a bone to pick it's the. book is called the tiger so I had the. title right wow it's a fascinating story. it wow yeah and you know it's. interesting because with a footprint oh. my God the size of that look at the. guy's hand next to the footprint oh my. God it's amazing oh that's the author. with the size of a female's paw print so. that's a female that's a small one oh my.

goodness yeah wow fascinating story and. Tig and then there he says the tiger is. just trying to be a tiger is that a. photograph of those guys it looks like a. drawing 1885 yeah different so is that. different time era is that a photo. though yeah black Bo what a shitty photo. I wouldn't buy it if somebody said. that's a photo I go get out of here it's. 140 years old you drew that. bro but some of the interesting things. looking at that is like in Glacier Park. or anywhere play where wolves overlap.

with with Mount Lions which we call. Lions Mount lions and grizzly bears and. coyotes and whatever when they they kill. one of their other competing Predators. just like that tiger they don't usually. eat it it's secondary it's to kill off a. competitor so wolves don't get eaten by. Mountain lines they do get killed by. mountain lions occasionally right. occasionally matter of fact one of the. Colorado wolves that was just introduced. was killed by mountain lion. really yeah one of the 10 that was just. introduced so they kill him because they. are a competitor and oneon-one.

100 120b cat and 100 pound wolf 101 the. cat's going to win but when you have a. pack of wolves I mean we've watched them. Tre tree the cat and they'll wait till. they can get it they'll wait but 101 the. cat doesn't have a chance but no and I. mean we the wolf doesn't have chance. one-on-one you mean right I mean when. the cat's won and you got a pack of. eight waiting right right but we we. documented a case where the Wolves treat.

a cat and when it couldn't stay up with. the tree any longer it was on a skinny. Lodge pole and it was sliding down and. as soon as it got the ground they killed. it and they just ripped it apart and. they didn't eat any of it. wow it's strictly to Vanquish a. competitor just like the tiger it's. interesting because wouldn't you think. that food is scarce and that meat is. precious and that if they did Kill the. mountain line they'd realize why don't. we eat this. thing well they had better options have. you ever eaten M lion I have it's good. yeah I had it once too that's why it's.

weird I don't know actually you know. what wait a minute did I eat it I don't. know I have why I feel like someone gave. me some I don't think I ate it I think. it's in my freezer I think somebody. might have served it to me somewhere. like the backstrap of a lion the loin it. looks like a park tender line and you. got it's very light colored I've only. eaten it once in well Steve killed one. and cooked it and he said it was. tremendous it is he called it superb he. said it was like a superior pork without. the fat yeah he said it was really good.

which is like most people would not. think you even eat Mountain line wol. apparently either huh well that was I. was reading about one of the Trappers. one of the original people that was. traveling across the country in the. 1700s his favorite meal was. wolf oh you're kidding me no this guy. was eating like wolf wolf meat I don't. think it'd be very good they're skinny. and stringy and C. yeah I don't know why I mean I don't. know why that would be anyone's favorite. then maybe that's like a cool thing to.

tell people that's I like eating wolves. you know you find some guys you're you. know he wants you to be scared of him. what he what is he e he's up there alone. he's eating wolves and that's his. favorite he lives by himself and he just. eats wolves right this doesn't that. sound like something a man would say or. worse yet wolverines oh right imagine. eating. Wolverines anyway no it's it's. I'm glad you showed me that stuff. because it's nice to know the stuff is. still out there and alive and well I.

hear it all the time and hear about the. Canadian superwolves and well where the. can there is a thing about mammals right. that mammals as they get into a colder. range they are larger mammals like if. you see uh like let's say uh Northern. Alberta whet tailed deer versus an. Arizona whail deer to a certain point. and then when you get to where it's so. cold and Arctic that the resources the. availability to get food is diminished. like Arctic wolves on elmir island are. pretty small and they're white and CU.

they're tiny they don't have any food. they're smaller right the the pures. Caribou up there are smaller than say. the Caribou in Alaska there's like. because there's it's hard to make a. living right but yeah Northern climate. like the wolves from Canada most of them. are pretty big and same with the all. everything yeah well it's a resource. issue right this is the reason why most. people think when they think of grizzly. bears grizzly bears have a very similar. size but then you get to Coastal brown.

bears they're much larger and it's. really just access to protein right. salmon yeah yeah you got I've been up to. to mcneel to watch the Bears and oh my. God they're just enormously fat they're. almost obscene waddling around with the. rolls you. know good old time hibernating yeah and. they're they're they're so content. because they have endless food resources. that's why you can have tourists go up. and sit sit and watch. grizzly bears feeding within 100 yards. of you sometimes eating salmon and.

you're under no danger why would they. bother you when they have the thousands. of bounds of salmon in the river there's. a fantastic video I don't know if you've. ever seen it but there's a photographer. and he's got like a little lawn chair. set up and he's photographing all these. enormous brown bears that are feeding. off salmon and this one walks up and. gets as close to him as where Jamie is. to us oh wow and it's huge and it just. sits next to him oh my God sits next to. him and looks down watch it this is it.

look at that's a big bear look at look. at the little folding chair oh my God I. mean just imagine that that is literally. where Jamie is oh my God and it doesn't. care at all about these people it's not. thinking of them as a food source no my. question is why did the bear bother I. guess because he's looking at the river. he doesn't even care that the people are. there he's just like looking at the. river going hm let me take a nap here so. he just chills out oh my God I mean any. other time so if you were in the middle.

of the forest and you saw first of all. they wouldn't be that big in the middle. of the forest but if you saw a bear like. that in the middle of the forest it'd be. absolutely terrifying he'd be scared of. you you'd be scared of him you'd have. your bear spray out yeah you'd be care. look at this guy he's so close yeah and. the bear just sort of walks off like see. you bye because he's got so much food I. kind of had a similar experience McNeil. not that close but close close enough. that I was uncomfortable I live with. bears because I'm used to bears that. have skinny resources and they they're.

voracious and they're pretty aggressive. in the fall BEC they can be because. they're getting into hyperphagia where. they got a good enough calories to. hibernate and if you keep them from. getting their calories it's it's you or. the Huckleberry bad maybe or you or the. the elk that you just hung in the woods. the night before and you went back to. get that happens people hang their game. in the woods and then go back the next. day and a gry bears found it have you. ever heard Steve story of that no no. tell me you never oh my God they were on. a fog Knack Island where's that it's in.

Alaska it's uh connected to it's like uh. one of the island chains that's right. near what is the big one where they find. all the the big brown bears Kodak yeah. so it's right off of Kodiak so they were. elk hunting and they shot an elk and. you're talking about elk hunting on that. island yes elk hunting on a fog neck. yeah it's a very hard hunt wow incred. difficult hun because of the terrain. it's almost impossible to Traverse so to. get a few miles takes hours and hours.

and hours so they go through this. they're basically bushwhacking through. this incredibly dense terrain they find. an elk they shoot the elk and then. they're very far from Camp so they take. some of the meat and then they hang the. meat in the trees and you know they set. up they didn't know that when they came. back the next day that a bear had. claimed that elk so of course there's a. gut pile there's all sorts of stuff. there for the bear obviously the smell.

of the meat and so uh they it took a. long time to get where the bear was and. they all sat down there was a large. group of them because they were filming. for this television show my friend Remy. Warren my friend Yannis pellis um and. then Steve and a a few other people. working on the crew and they sit down to. have lunch and little do they know that. there is an enormous like 11t bear that. had claim Nam that and he comes running. through the camp Oh My Gosh and one guy.

our friend dirtmouth was actually on his. back the bear plowed through the camp. and through the people and just I don't. think it recognized how many people were. there so it didn't know exactly what to. do so he wound up literally on the back. of a bear for like 10 to 15 yards oh my. God before he fell off of it so then the. bear goes in the woods and starts woing. none of them had their guns out none of. them were ready they were just eating. lunch they really up they made a. a a huge tactical error they also.

ignored scat which would they they. weren't sure like whether or not that. was a bear that had recently been you. know so they were there for quite a. while guns drawn like trying to fend off. this bear until they eventually got out. of there but both Steve Rella and Remy. Warren have told the story on my podcast. and it's wow bone chilling oh yeah I I. hadn't heard that when I saw Steve said. that this thing was literally feet from. his head nashing its teeth as it's.

running through the camp and it's. enormous just the he said you have all. these thoughts in your mind of what you. would do and how you would feel and he. said it's just reptilian like your your. brain goes to the the most base survival. there's a recognition of this enormous. Predator unbelievably sobering. experience. yes and what I would point out with that. is that that bear had every chance in.

the world to kill every one of those. guys didn't hurt any of them well it was. just trying to protect its its kill it. thought was its but I he his theory was. that the bear didn't realize how many. people were there matter they it ran. through the group it didn't know like. who to hit like Giannis hit in the face. with trekking poles hit the bear in the. face bear in the face with trekking. poles like that close to them imagine a. head that big that close and you hit it. with trekking puls ah and it just ran.

past them probably trying not knowing. what which one to Target or what to do. right and then they got their guns out. and then I don't know exactly how they. eventually re got to a point where they. felt confident enough that they could. walk right and then walk with meat on. their back right right so they have to. they they went there to pack out and. they have all these guys so they can. make the pack out a little bit. terrifying so now you're walking even. slower because you've got 50 lbs in your. back maybe they left a little behind.

they should have that's a good move I. mean yeah I probably would have leave. the shoulders and the neck yeah leave. something yeah leave something to fill. them up my point is that bear could have. run through and killed one of them or. all of them in a moment of anger it it. didn't it did a bluff charge it turned. around it woed and Nash its teeth and. yeah and it could have killed them. seriously sure even if they had their. guns it would have killed one or two of. them right and then we have this happen. a lot in Montana every year at least one. person is killed by a bear or many can.

be injured and the thing that's common. is they say the bear charg them and you. know before that it was woing and a lot. of times they do what's called a bluff. charge but people don't want to wait. till the bear is 15 feet away to figure. out if it's a bluff charge or not so. they shoot them and I bear sprays is. very very effective um because you can. do a longer distance and it's it's. accurate but I I personally don't the. science the science shows and many your.

listeners won't believe this the science. shows that average Hunter is better off. with a bear spray than a firearm but in. a moment of panic you can't say what you. would do better off to survive to. survive with less injury or least less. fatal and people have sprayed a. bear that's in attacking somebody and. the bear breaks off and leaves of course. you got to deal with the after have you. ever been around bear spray pepper spray. yeah I have oh my God maybe did it we we. pepper sprayed a bunch of people on Fear. Factor once oh it's it's awful how did.

you get everybody go off camera and get. yeah you run away cuz the the Brea. actually was you can't breathe it was. tear gas now that I'm remembering okay. so what we did we put these people in. this like this cement structure and it. was like how long can you tolerate it I. forget exactly what the stunt was but. the wind took a lot of it and blew it. through the crew and we were all running. away and it was in your eyes and I'm. sure tear guas is probably pretty. similar to the effects that you get from.

pepper spray I think pepper spray yeah. it might even be worse otherwise they'd. have tear gas for bear repellent and. they don't they have pepper spray I'm. sure it's it's bad but I'm just saying. and people can argue this and and it all. depends on the situation but in general. be spray is a more effective tool. because you can spray it three times. past where he's sitting mhm and the bear. hits that spray and they run away and. and I guess heard the bear biologist say. to me try shooting a rolling tire at 40. m hour and see how accurate your shots.

are because that's what you're shooting. at if a bear's charging you right and. it's difficult to keep your arck. together that's the big problem is panic. right it's it's not it's not necessarily. the killing factor it's just that you're. not going to hit very well whereas if. you bear spray it's just this Cloud. you're spraying out it's more effective. so it's like you had a flamethrower I. always carry bear spray when I'm hiking. gun no really not unless I'm bird. hunting do you ever does bear spray work. on cats I've heard it and I have never.

heard about it being used on wolves. because generally wolves aren't sneaking. around but I if I had a cat stalking me. lying on boy you bet I'd have my bear. spray out yeah. absolutely you've never been in a. situation where you had a cat stalking. you or close to you not that I saw oo. that's what's scary right mm probably. had a few no no not really no I had one. kill my dog in Colorado oh little dog. little tiny sorry I had yeah it was a. bummer um but there's a big difference I.

think between what you see and what's. there oh yeah I think if if you had um. infrared vision the heat detector and. you could see what's out in the woods. you'd never go outside to take a leak. when you at your cabin you probably. wouldn't cuz they are so aware of you. and and everything's out there we're. basically almost blind yes you know and. especially at nighttime we're almost. blind and they have senses that are. beyond our wildest imagination mhm like. we were trying we were talking earlier. today um where someone brought up uh.

that stuff that Hunters use to spray on. them to uh to kill their scent I go. listen to me this is nonsense first. of all whatever that stuff is they're. going to smell that stuff exactly and. it's not going to hide your scent I you. look I don't know the science behind it. I don't want to kill anybody's business. but I as you were with the wolf thing. I'm super skeptical that a deer or an. elk is not going to smell you if you. spray some junk that you bought from. Cabellas on you I I'm not want to kill.

anybody's business either but I can tell. you from traps too I do the same thing. I'm incredibly careful about. scent but they can still smell it it. just be more care be as careful as you. can be but I yeah I just don't think we. can even imagine the kind of sense that. they have the kind of ability to smell. and hear with those enormous ears and. those noses and those eyes that can see. at night I think we're just guessing and. we're trying it's almost like when you. try to imagine the size of the universe.

and someone says oh was 13.7 billion. years old and like light years and. like okay how big's that like you know. your head just someone tried to explain. it to me in a way that actually. resonated that it's similar to how you. can smell skunk except much more. directional you know like a skunk can. die a mile away and you can smell it. which is really weird because there's no. other scent like that in the nature no. that you can pick up at one animal.

sprays one thing a mile away and you're. driving in your car right and you're. like oh you smell that skunk around here. which is crazy but now what this guy was. saying to me is now imagine that but. directional and better yeah and that's. like what a bear can do or a wolf yeah. I've read studies and if the wind is. right I've read several miles so you can. smell something unbelievable it is. unbelievable and yeah I incredible yeah.

I think yeah the whole sent thing we. just it's way beyond our our ability to. detect and when I've been burying these. traps after being so careful with. everything and I have it's kind of. voodoo and science mix it's Art and. Science and you bury everything you bury. the Trap the hook the grapple cable I. mean just everything and then you cover. it up and it's been in the ground two. weeks nothing's Disturbed it then one. day you see where a wolf is come by. taken its paw and dug at the back side. of the Trap and lifted it out by the.

spring and pulled it up onto the trail. not snapped and then there' be a scat. two feet away wow like you yeah wow. so why do they do that well maybe. because they know it's there and they. probably have had some experience in. their life with traps but why mess with. it at all if they know it's dangerous. right I mean yeah why what do you think. it's a they're trying to like tell. people I'm not that stupid my my.

imagination to my theory is that maybe. this is a wolf that've already caught. been caught and it's got other pack. members that are naive it stops because. it smells it's like oh man I know what. this is I maybe it's time to show Junior. what's going on here and maybe they pull. it out I I don't know have you ever seen. the video of uh they caught a rat and. the rat takes a stick and blows the. mouse trap so it can get the food no. kidding rat the rat actually brought. over a tool to Spring the Trap and.

purposely Springs it I haven't seen the. video but I watch the problem with the. video the problem I have with the video. is I don't know the source so I don't. know if they train this rat I don't know. if they may have right so they maybe. done that just to make a viral video but. it's still pretty extraordinary that. this rat figures out it could take a. stick and it like moves it and puts the. stick on the rat trap the rat trap. Springs and then it goes over and by the. way it doesn't even Flinch when the rat. traps no let's see if you can find it.

Jamie it's really weird be yeah this is. it so he smells it yeah he smells it. it's a big rat trap yeah so he goes away. and I'll check this now the the thing. about him not flinching is the craziest. so he gets the stick he's had experience. he lifts it up and drops it he didn't. Flinch he didn't Flinch at. all isn't that insane I mean imagine. you're a wild Tred it seems like it. something something maybe he's done it. before but there was something weird. about it where he must have known that.

that's going to happen and the camera. with the full eye reflection sitting. indoors in her room that doesn't that. doesn't smack of wildness to mean that's. something well it's rats it's not really. wild right they're domesticated in some. sort of a weird way well you know. there's as close to as many rats as. there are people in New York City by. weird estimations which I'm sure they. don't have a good accurate account of. how many rats there are but there's so. many of them and there's an amazing. documentary called rats that's on. Netflix and it's really good and it it.

shows you how intelligent they are and. one of the things that they do is they. take the young Brash rats and they let. them go try the food out first see if. it's poison because they've been. poisoned so many times so they at this. young dummy it's like I'll eat it send. Sam Sam's Sam's a dumbass so Sam the rat. runs over and and eats the poison and. gets sick and they're like let's get out. of here and they take off but they have. some very bizarre survival instincts. that's highly tuned to this recognition. that they're being at least tried not.

prayed upon necessarily but something's. trying to kill them right and they're. not eating them some weird situation. where it's poison so theyve figured out. what poison is MH so they'll like send. smart crazy so they'll send a a dummy to. go out a young guy to go out and eat the. poison give it to Mikey Mikey likes. everything. I mean like what kind of natural. adaptation is that and like what is that. from is this like there's a I'm I'm sure.

you're aware of this but there's a very. bizarre study that they've done where. there's a thing there's a concept called. morphic resonance and the idea is that. once one animal learns this the other. animals will learn it easier and that. this is scientifically proven and that. the idea is that there's some sort of a. sharing of information that is not local. and that we don't totally understand so. the the concept is the way it's been. proven is that Rats on one side of the.

country if they go through a maze the. rats on the other side of the country. will go through the maze quicker the. exact same maze see if you can find that. H so they don't know what what this is. like you know I think we have a very. naive belief that the senses that we. have recognized all of them whether. they're sight sound touch taste whatever. they are this is it this all that's. available and that the concept might the.

idea is that there might be something. that we're missing or something that we. really we as dumb blind human beings in. terms of the our ability to see things. we don't have the ability to tune into. to what these animals can tune into I. think there's a huge portion of our. brain that we never never touch and I. think animals are more tuned in I think. in many ways many species are smarter. than us just because they can sense. their environment more acutely yeah. maybe Spar is not the right word but. there's something rat learning and. morphic morphic resonance yeah so.

according to hypothesis um form. formative causation there's no. difference in kind between innate and. learned behavior both depend on motor. Fields given by morphic residents the. hypothesis therefore admits a possible. transmission of learned behavior from. one animal to another and leads to a. testable prediction which differs or to. testable predictions which differ not. only from those of the Orthodox theory. of inheritance but also from those of. the. lamaran lamaran theory and from.

inheritance through epigenetic. epigenetic modifications of gene. expression so animals of an inbred. strain are placed under conditions in. which they learn to respond to a given. stimulus in in a characteristic way they. are then made to repeat this pattern of. behavior many times x hypothesa the new. behavioral field which will be. reinforced by morphic resonance will not. only cause the behavior of the trained. animals to become increasingly habitual. but will also affect though less.

specifically any similar animal exposed. to a similar stimulus the larger the. number of animals in the past that have. learned the task the easier it should be. for the subsequent similar animals to. learn it therefore in an experiment of. this type it should be possible to. observe a progressive increase in the. rate of learning not only in the animals. descended from trained ancestors but. also in genetically similar animals to. ended from untrained. ancestors this is pretty wild stuff it's. pretty wild yeah so it's it it just.

speaks to this we're I I think we. naively look at our senses as being the. only ones that are available there's. obviously some kind of communication. that transpires between animals that. allows them to hunt in packs right. particularly wolves like they have. strategies they do things like they know. how to Corner animals they know how to. funnel them into like pinch points they. do it on purpose and they seem to be. aware of what they're doing through.

whether it's gures or fermon or. something that we're just guessing on. but they're accomplished at it it's not. like a singular individual event that. you could point to like maybe that was. just dumb luck they ran the deer through. this area and the other wolves just. happen to be there no no they're they. have specific tasks where they have. wolves that'll get on the top of the. ridges and let themselves be known so. they get these animals running and then. the other wolves are ahead of them and. then they have wolves that follow behind. them the Yellowstone's been a great.

place to observe hunting I mean when I. was working up Northwest Montana it's. heavily forested we never almost never. got to watch wolves chasing sprey unless. we're in the airplane but in the Lamar. you got Scopes and everybody's watching. it and I've seen some pretty incredible. chases and there's certain in some packs. certain individuals are the Chasers the. younger animals and some of the. individuals are the Cuda they go in for. the kill after the animals been tired. and I guess there was some older animals.

that are too valuable potentially to. risk being injured early on but they. they jump join in the Chase and they. know how to kill an animal so and I one. thing I've always wondered I don't know. if this is with the morphic resonance. but um I that's something different. maybe but I've always wondered when. wolves were first walking down from. Canada and dispersing from Glacier. before wolves were reintroduced in their. there was a very thin population of. wolves out there how do they know where. to go for for example there is a wolf.

pack in the 9 Mile it's a river drainage. outside of Missoula and this pair this. pair of wolves had formed a mating. system and they had a litter of pups the. female was poached on Memorial Day which. is those pups are born in Middle April. so they were pretty young they were five. six weeks old they were still dependent. on Mom and the concern was that the dad. wouldn't be able to raise those pups cuz. he's got to go out and hunt and they. maybe they're just being a weaned and. blah blah blah well two weeks two weeks.

after the female was dead my colleague. Mike who was working down there says hey. Diane are you missing any Collard wolves. from Glacier I said yeah I'm missing. several that I don't know where they. went he says cuz I just had a collared. wolf show up here and join the 9mile. mail I said really I said well here's my. list of frequencies of the missing. wolves that had been missing and he put. ran through the receiver and listened. and one of those wolves was one that I. had caught in Glacier and disappeared.

six seven months earlier so like so she. wandered around in not cyber space but. Mountain space trying to look for a. place to fit in and all of a sudden when. this female gets shot boom she's there. to fail in the slot wow how does that. happen and that happens in Yellow Stone. too or one of the breeding animals will. be killed and very soon after a a wolf. of unknown well there they know a lot of. the Wolves but a wolf will just show up. the right gender the right age and and.

potentially Bond and start a new pack H. how do they know and I guess all I can. say is with that there's scent the. Wolves smelling the urine and the scat. can detect all kinds of things. hormonally and the the the dominance of. an animal if the female went missing all. of a sudden they won't smell it anymore. and maybe it's a male a female coming in. and she knows it but geographically how. do they know to migrate right 200 miles. and show up exactly when the other wolf. disappears well they've been trying to. figure out forever what's going on with.

birds and how birds like San Hill cranes. for example yeah yeah I mean Canadian. geese like what what's going on like how. are these birds figuring out these. incredible migration paths right it's. amazing to me so have you ever heard of. the book called World on the Wing by. Paul I think last name is Weeden how. something it's about the world of. migration it it is mind B if you like to. read nature stuff and science it's it's. written so anybody can enjoy you don't. have to be a scientist but it's.

fascinating full of facts about the. world of bird migration and how they get. places and like a particular important. flat in China that was critical habitat. for a group of birds suddenly gets. developed and it's like the wintering. ground for half a million of these birds. or whatever it wasse and certainly where. do they go. right I don't know migratory birds are. very fascinating oh I know and like what. are they following and what GPS do they. have in their little tiny brains they. have little tiny brains I know but yet.

they're able to use something like. there's a theory that it's the magnetic. poles right or the stars or whatever the. Stars really I never heard that one I. just heard a lot of stuff I'm I've had I. remember yeah one winter one winter. night I was at my little remote cabin. and it was at moose City and it was. stormy and it was like November and it. was stormy and I I went outside to UC. out house and I heard this calling and. it was dark and stormy and I it was.

calling and calling it got closer and. closer and I put my bright flashlight. straight up and there was a flock of. snow Gees I never seen snow Gees up. there never and they were circling. around and they were lost in the storm. and there's no lights up there except. for my house light and my flashlight and. they were circling around the meadow and. I I listen to that haunting call and I. thought how are they going to survive it. this is the valley bottom are they going. to try and go up over the mountaintops.

in the storm are they going to crash. land in the meadow for the night anyway. I got to thinking about them I thought. why are how did they get here they got. blown off course I just shut my light. off and I don't know what happened to. them never saw them again wow but I. think about these birds a lot of them. die migrating yeah they don't have a. good ending you know there's birds that. fly across the entire ocean it's. mindboggling mindboggling they sleep. while they're they're flying I know I. wish I could do that when I was driving. I try sometimes one of them is a very. big bird Albatross that's right.

Albatross and they they literally sleep. while they're soaring across the sky. just put out those big old Wings just. ride the wave yeah for months or years. yeah I mean it's crazy right like what. are you doing why are you doing that. there you go here Albatross can fly. non-stop for over. 16,000 kilometers wow that is so crazy. for example a grhe headed Albatross flew. 13,670 miles around the world in 46 days.

in 2015 oh my God that's crazy uh L. Albatross can travel, 1600 miles on. foraging trips to feed their. chicks large Albatross species can spend. up to 5 years at Sea Albatross can go up. to six years before returning to the. island where they were born to mate and. lay eggs unbelievable yeah I got to see. albatross one time when I was down I. think where was I it was down I think it. was New Zealand but they were amazing I. like the it's crazy here where it's.

talking about how they're they can fly. over vast areas without flapping their. wings they just use the wind expending. almost none of their own wow so it would. be interesting to me I would hope the. day would come with wolves and other. large carnivors where people learn about. the science and they get just as excited. as this instead of the wolves have. killed all the deer now well I think. there's a there's a narrative in this. country right yeah and I think the. narrative is first of all they were.

killed off a long time ago by Poison by. ranchers and by settlers and because of. that we grew up with this narrative that. they had to kill off the Wolves so then. these damn hippies come and vote and. bring and I wanted to ask you about that. too um what your feeling is on biology. that's done by vote which is how. informed these people that are casting. this vote how emotional is this and how. much of this these decisions that people. are making like one of them being uh.

that I think was like particularly. egregious was the delisting of grizzly. bears in PC because I have a good friend. who lives up there and he's like there's. a lot of grizzly bears up there they. still allow black bear hunting but. they're not controlling the grizzly bear. population because the people in. Vancouver where that's the large. population they have the most votes they. decided who got to Outlaw what they call. trophy hunting right and so biology by. vote by people that probably don't know. anything about what's going on and they.

don't have to other than have this. emotional emotional respon response but. I think going back to what we're talking. about is that we have this narrative. that the Wolves were bad the Wolves were. killed off for a good reason we don't. want wolves oh my God people are. bringing back wolves what are they doing. we want to kill those damn wolves and so. there's a there's a good percentage of. the population that lacks this nuance. perspective of the complexity of the. ecosystem and how amaz first of all how. amazing it is to be able to see wolves M.

like if if you're a per I've never seen. them in the wild I saw one once in yeah. in Alberta but it was so brief it was. dusk it was like it was actually after. last Light so it was running across this. dirt road and I was like is that a wolf. is that a wolf but there's a lot of. wolves up there plenty of camera trap. photos of these wolves so that's most. likely what it was and they give out. wolf tags you can as many wolf tags as. you want up there but good luck finding. one you know they're a lot smarter than. you or a lot better at living in the. woods than you are yes but we have these.

these ideas that are ingrained in us. that the Wolves were killed off for a. good reason and they're only being. brought back because of. morons you sum that up pretty. well isn't that how people feel about it. yes so a couple of things I as a wolf um. conservationist I guess i' say and. researcher and a wolf lover and manager. well don't you love them I love wolves I. love dogs I love foxes I love white tail. I love wildli that's better and I'm kind.

of in the middle but obviously I'm. passionate about wolves and I lead lean. towards whatever we need to do to ensure. that they continue as a species I'm not. saying they're going to live in Iowa and. Texas I'm just saying there's places. that they can live um where they more. likely belong I'm just going to put it. that way but I am not in favor of. reintroductions and I was not in favor. of the Yellowstone in the central Idaho. introductions which usually surprises. people because I promote Wolf.

Conservation but I felt that wolves were. coming down on their own from Canada and. before those wolves were ever. reintroduced by 1995 we had like eight. packs of wolves in the state of Montana. 7075 wolves and you can Google that the. US fish and wildlife service early. reports they were making it and I feel. like some of these places where. reintroductions are happening because of. ballad box initiatives like Colorado. wolves were already starting to get to. Colorado and the people who are wolf.

proponents say we want them reintroduced. because they'll never make the great. desert across Wyoming they'll all be. killed they can't make it well a few of. them have and they even made pups in 19. I think it was 2020 or. 2021 and then this wolf was did I about. the wolf from michig yeah the wolf that. was killed trapped in Colorado this year. that came from the Great Lakes my God. how did it get there but it did so I. feel sort of that Colorado is on the. cusp of not to recovery if it's going to.

be one year or 10 years or 50 years it's. a Time issue and I think the same was. true for Yellowstone and Central Idaho. they were already getting to those. places wolves had already been seen two. of them confirmed in in and around. Yellowstone Park in 1991 or two before. they were reintroduced and my wolves. going to yell to Idaho it's just a. slower way. and people want to jump start this with. reintroducing Wolves well in my humble. opinion I'm not a psychologist but I.

think that social. tolerance of humans for anything is. better when it isn't forced on them I. don't like having things forced on me. nobody yeah so when you force wolves on. somebody it's what going to meet with. human resistance if they walk there on. their own I believe they will get there. are science is shown that they do it. just takes longer other thing of. interest about the reintroductions is. that people think the wolf loving.

hippies pushed to have the Wolves. reintroduced into Yellowstone and Idaho. I'll just say Yellowstone but it's the. same and to some point it is that. faction but the reason it happened was. because two conservative Ed Senators one. from Idaho McLure one from Wyoming. Simpson very conservative ranching. supporting base. promoted to Congress to pass laws to get. those wolves. reintroduced because they could see the.

writing on the wall that the wolves are. coming anyway and if they walk down. there on their own they're going to be. fully endangered well if we reintroduce. them they get a different classification. called non-essential experimental. population meaning because humans put. them there you can manipulate them and. kill them if they're taking livestock. it's just more flexible management so. the Senators thought were to getting. there anyway let's just put them in. there really so yeah that's a little bit. of the interesting background that.

people aren't aware of with the. reintroductions that it was really. people way on the right and way on the. left coming towards a common goal for. different reasons want to see a crazy. video of a wolf that was in. Bakersfield yeah in California yeah my. friend filmed this so uh this wolf he. was driving down the freeway in Baker. and they looked off and there was this. wolf I've sent you this right.

Jamie see yeah do you think you still. have it I know Cody sent it to me I can. I can find it um so my friend who was. out there filmed this wolf off the. highway and this is like five miles from. an In-N-Out Burger sorry yeah and it's. it's in California I mean we're talking. about an hour 40 from Los Angeles oh my. gosh yeah and the he was speculating. that perhaps this wolf was brought there.

by someone damn it might be on my other. phone did I send it to you Jamie I'm. looking I know I saved it I'll Pro I can. find it but this might be a little bit. of a pain in the ass. um maybe it's here um so this uh this. wolf was very cool looking like this. very big black wolf and he's like. wandering around these cows and then. someone comes comes and shoes him away. and he runs off huh damn it don't does. he have a collar on no he does not I. think I read about this wolf there's a.

wolf that went down through the central. California Valley and ended up going. down through the vineyard country I. think it was probably that wolf that it. was seen oh probably I mean there's not. that many a lot of people are super. skeptical like how would a wolf wind up. there but if you what you're saying in. terms of the amount of land that they. can travel on is insane hundreds and. hundreds of miles. historically back aons of time wolves. had the largest global distribution of. any mammal in the world except people I.

mean wolves live from the Arctic to the. Prairies to the temperate forest to the. Gaza Strip still and there's wolves in. the Gaza Strip there's wolves in the. Netherlands right now wolves have. expanded they will live anywhere that we. don't kill them off because they did. historically I mean there were wolves on. Staten Island I'm sure. now we have different wolves. there but I'm thinking yeah anyway stock.

Wall Street yeah exactly that's where. I'm going so um but they live anywhere. because they can eat anything but mostly. what they need is is four-legged hoofed. mammals Yi deer El Carib moose whatever. occasionally livestock they need a place. where they can secure that they can we. and raise pups um and then they need a. freedom of persecution from humans being. it traps poison shooting whatever. if you have enough of those three. factors they will be there they I mean. they've been showing up in Iowa and. Missouri and the dtas for years and.

years now but they they don't make it. because they get killed but they're. trying yeah I I think I might have saved. it under wolf if I look there's like. videos love to see that video there. thing that you can do now with uh your. iPhone where you can just search for. wolves really yeah you can search for. stuff it's show me the werewolf in the. lobby it's sh me all the pictures I have. of Carl. is not showing you that one wolf no. showing me but you you saw one or your. friend did no our friend did he filmed. it I know I had the video so if you get.

a chance Joe if you're really interested. in seeing wolves just take a trip to. Yellowstone and go I would suggest not. in the summer because it's it's just. crazy I'd go in the winter you can hire. a hire a wolf tour guide or you can go. on your own just State hotel but you got. to get up before dark what was that. Jamie those those mountain lions crying. oh wow and you got to go out Dawn and D. in the win time they're easier to see. because of the snow and it's really fun. depending on the season if you go in the. fall they got bigger pack cuz the pups.

are all still alive you go in the winter. they got breeding behavior and stuff. going on it's just there's always. something to see just I I go there. myself but I know a lot of the wolf. washers I just drive the roads till I. see people pulled over and I get out and. watch and they might be a mile away they. might be 400 yards away but bring a. scope and I'd suggest you just hire a. guide you'll see wolves guarante hear. them it would be cool yes I mean it it's. amazing to hear them howling yeah one. thing we did come across when I was. hunting in BC we were moose hunting.

about 10 years ago or so and we found uh. a calf that had been killed and it was. really interesting because like they had. stripped it down to the bone and what. was wild was all the hair it was hair. everywhere I'm like I didn't even think. of that like I didn't think there'd be. hair everywhere for some stupid reason. how how long ago are they killed it was. there anything left or it pretty recent. real recent like within the day yeah. really you sure I know that's on my. Instagram wasn't a bear kill or a wolf.

kill yeah my friend who was up there I. just asked CU bear bears and lions both. pluck and strip hair off well there that. area had a lot of wolves okay and he was. uh he was very accustomed to finding uh. Cals that have been killed by wolves we. found it because of birds sure the birds. were circling and it's like let's go see. what's over there yeah mag pies in and. Raven are my best friends when I'm out. looking for kills yeah isn't that. interesting like that's how you find. things find the birds it is yeah and how. do they find it like what you know so.

there's been stories written and there's. a guy um who does a lot of Raven studies. oh His Name Escapes me right now they so. smart yeah he's done some really. interesting studies with Ravens and if. you ever watch the videos of crows. solving puzzles and Ravens oh my God. incredible right next life I want to. come back as a raven not only do they. solve puzzles but they figure out how to. raise water level so they can get the. food in a jar think about that they drop. rocks into the jar until the water level. raises so they can get the food that's. floating yeah the Raven guy's name is.

bar Hines he's German bar is in Bernie. with burnt bar and hin yeah anyway it's. cool stuff I mean this is I mean you and. I are both obviously very interested in. animals we hunt our own food but just. when I'm out hunting I feel a little bit. like a predator not not a lot because I. got a gun but I watch the dogs who are. basically predators and I watched. animals in the landscape and it just you. see so much when you're out hunting I'm. sure I mean what's the coolest animal.

you've ever seen when you've been out on. the landscape hiking or hunting or. anything uh that mountain line that we. saw might have been the coolest that was. the coolest but I saw a badger once I. got I got filmed with that I actually. got out of the truck and got next to him. got close to him then he started coming. towards me and I. ran like what's wrong with me like what. am I stupid they're blonde Wolverines. that's really what they are looked. terrifying and not very big but. like ferocious I've caught a couple in. Wolf traps such a cool looking animal so.

cool looking I know I just couldn't. imagine that I was seeing one like it. was in Utah seeing one in the wild uh. I've seen I saw one Grizzly and did it. looked at me so much different than any. bear I've ever looked at I've hunted. black bear before and I've been around. black bear many many times and I've this. is the first Grizzly and it was so. different the way it looked at me where. was it this this was in BC no excuse me. this was in Alberta and this one was not. a big one he was about 6 feet tall but. he looked through me it looked different.

like a a black bear looks like who are. you what's this what are you doing over. there are you food are you going to kill. me what are we doing they're a little. sketched out because they're not the top. of the food chain the Grizzlies are and. so the grizzly looked at me like this. like right at me we had shotguns we. screamed at them and scared yeah and my. friend Jen she slammed a stick against. the tree like get out of here bear and. cocked the shotgun and the bear took off. but it was the difference in looking in.

their face they just have a totally. different look they look at you like. this like am I going to get you right. now it's just a Grizzly has a hard life. it's not like that brown bear that has. all those salmon that's sitting by the. river those Grizzlies are out there like. trying to survive yeah I Griz these in. the Rocky Mountains are quite small. compared to the coastal brown bears and. same species yeah but um they're very. different and they have they have to. make a living I mean if you had to make. your living picking huckleberries.

needing gut piles in the fall it'd be. skinny and they have to they have to put. on a lot of weight well that to me is so. fascinating how animals com change they. change their behavior based on the. amount of resources that are available. and and whether or not they're safe like. the Yellowstone elk that are. habitualized that are just around people. hanging out with them and bamp you ever. been to bamp In the Fall no I haven't. but I've seen photos they're vling and. mating on the post office lawn. literally smart for them though AB no. Hunters right and people just pull over.

to pull their phones out and film them. yeah I think the Wolves I think I've. heard of occasionally wolves find out. and they sneak into town at night well. weren't you telling a story on Steve. rell's podcast about a very nice. neighborhood of like these nice homes. and these wolves that decide to set up. shop yes it was a closed gated community. uh between white fish and Kalispel and. they had their pups in this closed gated. community because there's no hunting. it's unlimited Green Space and. undeveloped Forest cuz people have. mcmansions and they have huge acreage.

and it's just quiet time there there's. not a a safer place and the people there. like them because they don't have. livestock they're usually not haunters. and they they it's great except then. they grow up and they have to leave the. Wolves you know so then they get out in. the real world and then they get their. asses kicked yeah right that's a problem. cuz then you're like a wolf growing up. in a gated community literally right and. you've learned that people are okay you. learned that people are okay and there's. deer everywhere right cuz the deer know. the people are okay and the deer are not.

used to wolves being there right it it's. really interesting yeah that pack didn't. make it I'm not surprised right but it. was just so interesting to me how. adaptable wolves are you know when I. first started this business they come. from Minnesota and the Wolves lived only. in the northern third or quarter of the. state where it was Boundary Water canoe. area and really wild because any place. else they got killed off so I always. thought these wolves were denisons of. the Wilderness and they would only live. where it was incredibly wild and they've.

come to show us that's not true they. will live wherever we tolerate them and. um that could be it I mean there were. wolves in Texas not that long ago red. red wolves so they were here but you. know they're just not tolerated how much. of a problem is it where they kill pets. it's a a giant mountainline issue. especially in Northern California one. place outside of San Francisco they did. an an analysis of the diet of mountain. lines that they had captured and it was.

50% pets but of course it's a bias. survey because it's by San Francisco so. it's not yeah but it's just fascinating. that they had actively chosen to hunt. pets if I was a mountain lion living. near San Francisco I'd be eating poodles. and chihuahua and cats absolutely easy. prey there a lot of them nobody's going. to shoot you in California it's illegal. it's it's a Charmed Life until you get. run over in the freeway well that's. probably one of the reasons why you. don't hear about that in Texas cuz in. Texas they're like verman you you can. shoot as many mountain lines as you want.

if you see a mountain line you shoot. them just like a coyote it's just that's. interesting I didn't know that in Texas. so you don't need a tag you don't need. anything really yep it's amazing they. still hanging on there's the wolf oh. it's yeah how'd you find it Jamie wow I. found out that it was on the itam Green. Tree. episode5 you see the white white. triangle you're the best you see the. white triangle in the chest yes that. indicates to me it's a younger wolf. because the pups can be born yeah can. you wind that back again yeah thanks so. this is my friend Cody filmed this off.

the highway awesome so he had a scope um. you know like a you know spotting scope. yeah yeah and he put awesome a phone. look at that it's amazing so the white. chevron pups younger wolves have that. and as they get older like the rest of. us they get gray and that doesn't stand. out so much so it probably be a yearling. maybe a 2-year-old wolf interesting so. what their speculation is you know he. works on a ranch their speculation is. that someone released that and they.

think these Rogue Wildlife lovers are. Rel look cows right there that these. Rogue Wildlife lovers are releasing. wolves uh to try to force some sort of a. reintroduction into Central California I. know for a fact that there was a wild. wolf that was tracked going down through. Central into Bakersville I don't know if. was black or gray but I know there was. one so it's not unprecedented no no it's. not my friend Kent lden does the wolf. work in California he's a biologist used.

to be Montana and Idaho and no they're. they're making a comeback I think. there's six packs now and they're doing. really well mostly Northern California. Northern California and yeah and there's. lots of conflict because they can't they. can't I'm pretty darn sure they cannot. kill the wolves that are killing. livestock so it's set up for a conflict. kind of like in. California they're having some. management flexibil in California I mean. in Colorado but so far I mean they just. now so a pair of wolves that they.

reintroduced found each other and made a. pack and they had the only litter of. pups known to be in in Colorado this. year I believe both of those wolves came. from Oregon and they both had livestock. killing experience before they chose. them to release which is really. unfortunate so the D I was okay they did. okay until people started cing and now. there's little calves on the ground and. now the wolves are coming in and they're.

starting to kill cabs and then they. might kill uh heer or something and. anyway they're killing livestock so what. do you do you got a male and a female. and a litter of pups and they have. started a history of killing livestock. what do you do with them when the the. the slight majority of people in. Colorado The Ballot Box initiative stuff. want to see allers protected and a. slight minority it's like 492 to 502 or. something want them. removed and the people in the middle are.

trying to figure out what to do so they. went and captured them and put them in a. holding facility for a while then. they're going to release them later well. you still have a problem because they. still are habitualized they will Pro. will probably likely to continue killing. livestock it's hard to find are the. ranchers reimbursed like is's there a. fund for that that in Montana there is I. presume yeah there is in Colorado yeah. they're reimbursed but as I worked with. ranchers and they said I didn't raise my. cows for your damn wolves to kill them I.

don't care I don't want the money I just. don't want the Wolves here and sometimes. when you're working with uh raner. Community that's the only common. denominator you have is you're out there. because you don't want their cows killed. because then wolves have to get killed. they don't want their cows killed cuz. they didn't they raised them for all. these Generations they have a. genetic good pool genetically they. invested so you have the same that's the. same common goal and you might have. different reasons to come to that goal. but that's how you work with people you.

know how it is there's always a common. denominator always I was watching a. documentary about this guy who lived. with wolves like lived with wolves in. some contained environment and he would. like set up a fake kill where he would. eat the liver so he could be like the. dominant male and he would growl at them. it was really stupid yeah you're right. I'm I'm with you anyway this gentleman. who is a wolf expert was then uh. recruited to try to help uh a sheep. herder with wolves that had moved in to. take over his flock and one of the.

strategies they used is giant speakers. so they took speakers and they played. sounds of wolves to scare off these. other wolves huh and so then he goes. back to the pack and tries to be the. alpha again and they Corner him and. snarl at him and he had a whimper and. and he had a it's a very weird. documentary because this is a some sort. of a strange fenced in envir environment. that they've created where these wolves. are living yeah sounds a bit like. Timothy Treadwell the similar the same. deal very very very similar yeah well.

that I think that that that's from the. movie The Warner Herzog another wner. Herzog film Grizzly men I think oh that. was amazing amazing movie and an. unintentional comedy maybe intentional I. think it was a little bit intentional. because there's there's a few Cuts in. there where you're like that he had to. know that was funny um and that I think. that was suicide by bear yeah that's. what I think and the girlfriend too yeah. I think that guy and the girlfriend. unfortunately but I think that guy. wanted to die and I think he wanted to. die that way this he had to know but.

what I'll say is captive wolf facilities. and not going to have many people who. love their captive wolves but captive. animal behavior and wild wolf Behavior. have some parallels but they're not the. same yeah and that guy doing this thing. with would never happen with wild wolves. right impossible no they would never. tolerate that yeah no it's it it's it's. a weird bastardization of reality yeah. and many many people I did part of my.

career earlier helping to try and keep. wolves out of livestock and we put out. we put out sirens and we put out. blinking lights and and bought raw. cowhide patches and raw hamburger and. laced it with lithium chloride which is. a toxin that makes you violently ill. right away it's not going to kill you. the idea being that that these wolves. would eat this baits wrapped with string. and taste all this wonderful beef burger. and taste the hide and then associate. that bad experience of vomiting your.

guts out for 24 hours or whatever to the. animal on the hoof out there that's a. great idea for how your human brain. works it didn't they just ate every bait. we put out and there piles of puke. everywhere they they don't think like we. think right of course not right and then. one guy Rancher was working with we're. putting out the baits whatever I had I. did the sirens and I did what's called. fladry and fladry is they used it in. Europe in places like Poland to hunt. wolves where you hang streamers down. from fences and you start out with a.

really wide funnel in the woods and the. hunters used to drive the Wolves through. the forest with people at the end with. guns and they would see the flattery and. it would be quite a ways apart like a. mile or two or something and they. wouldn't cross the flry because it. scared them and they get to the end and. it's like shooting pheasants at the end. of a cornfield wow so people have taken. that idea to to try and keep wolves out. of like cing pens in specific areas. where the livestock are confined it. doesn't work well when they're out in. free range um and it works pretty well.

so I was out working with this pasture. guy in northern Minnesota and he had a. long skinny pasture and I had out got. Highway blinking lights that came on at. night in the fladry and he was so kind. he let me this is a lot of years ago. it's just this young St I think so I. stopped into visit him and I said well I. know you had a you had a lo you had a. loss you got a calf I said have any the. wolves been back and he looked at me and. he says well no hun they haven't been. back he says I said you think the. blinking lights are working on your. pastor he says well I don't know but I.

damn near had a plane land here last. night just I broke up laughing he broke. up laughing and was just like yeah this. is a tough job let's just have some fun. here so that's hilarious but again he. didn't like wolves I didn't want him. killing his cows and that was a common. factor to try and them apart what are. the cons when there's pros and cons for. reintroduction of wolves what what do. you think the cons are of the like the.

reintroduction Colorado the. reintroduction Yellowstone uh I believe. a potentially a decreased human. tolerance and the Wolves don't have a. learning curve they're taken from one. place and then Boop they're popped there. versus if they kind of migrate they were. down they run this Gauntlet they kind of. have to learn on the way to be. successful to get there they have to. learn to avoid livestock pans or. whatever they have to learn and stay a. little more secretive so that's just my. belief that when they're make it on.

their own they've been smart enough to. get there whereas when you just put them. there you're going to Forever have. people believing they're they don't. belong there they're not native so the. problem is in the perceptions of the. people that are encountering the wolves. or they impacted by the Wolves being. there I believe so yeah and so for. example now we've got wolves in the they. were put into uh a total of 66 wolves. was put into Idaho and Wyoming and then. another 10 were added Wyoming for. Montana but it's a very small number of.

wolves but now wolves have taken over. Washington Oregon California they've. made a few made it to Colorado they're. trying to get in Utah a few have been. shot there and all those wolves came. from this introduced population some. from Montana but they'll never be. considered native which is crazy because. they used to be native and the wolves. that were taken for the sources like I. explained earlier they're taken from an. area that wolves from Glacier Park. walked to they are one population but.

there's a belief socially because they. were put there they're not native. they're Canadian superwolves and I've. heard the crazy stories like these. wolves weigh 175 pounds and they were. selected out of all the Wolves captured. they took the ones that were the most. aggressive so that when they put them on. the ground they would survive everything. it's like oh my God no no well that. sounds ridiculous but it is kind of. crazy to me that if you wanted a wolf. reintroduction to be successful why. would you take animals that have a. history pred predation on cattle and.

livestock and use those as the. reintroduction Wolves I think that kind. of mindset or that ignorance whether. it's willful ignorance or whether it's. on purpose whether it's a you to. the ranchers whatever it is that is why. people have this negative perception I. think you're alluding to right I and I. don't think I don't think it was an F. you to the ranchers I think what. happened was because of The Ballot Box. initiative the the state of Colorado was. required by law by December 31st of 2023. to get 10 wolves or so on the ground and.

it took what if they weren't successful. like if they're required by law does. someone go to jail if you're not. successful in capturing the Wolves to. put there like I don't know but what I'm. saying is they had a pretty limited time. they spend a lot of time trying to prep. people and doing committees and working. with people to get them prepared and. they by the time they were able to get. everything in place they were running. against a wall they introduced these. wolves very late in the year I think it. was December and the only place they.

could get Source wolves they got him. from Oregon and that Point Oregon gave. him 10. wolves half of them roughly half of them. happened to have some livestock. experience if they so this time right. now they're already gearing up for the. next introduction this winner probably. they're working with British Columbia I. believe and they're going to take wolves. presumably that have not had life. livestock experience and let them go. like they did with the original. introductions into Yellowstone and Idaho. and I really believe because of the. political pressure to squeeze this into.

a short. timeline that the people who are really. Pro wolf it was forced that they were. had to take the wolves that they got. that's what I believe I don't think it. was an Fu I think it was unintentional. but it's like these are the Wolves these. are the Wolves you're going to get and. they took them that sounds so. shortsighted well I know but I'm not. there and I'm not I'm not trying to. badmouth their effort they were under a. lot of pressure half the state wants. wolves half doesn't they're under a. short timeline Oregon was the only state. that offered up their wolves Wyoming.

said no Montana said no everybody said. no Argan says you can have 10 of ours. here's the 10 you're going to get yeah I. I could see why they did it that way but. boy that seems like you're just adding. to the problems it really does in. hindsight it does yeah and it yeah so. what are the positives about the re. reintroduction of. wolves so because it has been successful. in Colorado or in general in general. because the Colorado one is just this. year right it's time frame see all this.

stuff has to do with the time frame the. mistakes and the rewards so the positive. most positive pros of introductions is. you speed up the time frame so like if. we had let wolves slowly wander down. from Canada and eventually get to. Yellowstone it may have taken 10 years. it may have taken 50 I mean it happened. in Montana pretty quickly once they hit. critical mass but it took them a few. years to get there and then they just. started you know the. curve but people didn't want the time.

window and we had uh presidential. Administration that was in favor we had. conservative congressmen that were in. favor of it you had the wolf groupies in. favor of it and it it's just like all. came together in the time frame and the. window of opportunity opened about four. inches and they shoved them through in. Colorado mandated by citizens ballot. initiatives which which is not a really. great way to I don't think to do. business on any bill I mean we have. bills in Montana coming up now for. voting but the timeline was short and I.

think if they had more options they. would have taken wolves they would have. taken wolves from Wyoming or Montana for. sure because they're more wild whatever. we do have depredating wolves but they. kind of got down to the wire and. everybody denied them except for Oregon. so that's that's what happened well the. problem with that of course is what we. were talking about with epidemiology. that like if these animals do have. learned behavior pattern that's going to. be imparted on their offspring as well. and the surrounding Community they're. going to favor that because it's a very. simple way to get food pretty simple and.

the other hand they can Lear new. Behavior like the wolves that were taken. for their introductions to Yellowstone. they had never seen a bison most of them. and they've learned now in Yellowstone a. lot of the animals to kill are bison. they no kidding yeah yeah I it's really. it's mindboggling to me to see a herd. surround a bison and eventually we it. down or kill it or find one that's. injured there's an amazing painting that. I'm pretty sure Rell told me about he. might even have a copy of it of uh or. was it Remy might have been Remy no it.

was Remy because Remy actually he um. reproduced this on his television show. oh he had a show called apex predator. and the show apex predator was all like. examining the behavior characteristics. of apex predators and seeing what they. did and one of the things that some of. the Native American tribes used to do. they would take a wolf skin and they. would wear it on put it on their head. and they would crawl on two legs or on. four legs you know hands and knees up. into bison yep yeah that one so that one.

I've used that in my own slideshows too. isn't that amazing that painting it's. it's so incredible and so they would. wander up towards bison because bison. full grown bison are not afraid of a. couple of wolves right and they would. use that as a way to get close enough. like a decoy MH and sneak up and arrow. these bison and kill them yep oh there's. a lot of paintings of that that's cool. so that must have been a very common. thing well so Remy actually reproduced. this on his television show oh nice he.

actually wore a wolf skin and crawled up. to these bison he did wild bison not. yeah wild bison yeah where I don't know. I don't know where he was I'm not sure. see if you can find Remy Warren apex. predator uh bison episode there's bison. in Utah too sure yeah wow I didn't know. that how he do he shot one yeah with an. arrow yeah with an arrow really yeah wow. well you imagine especially if you have. a compound bow you know I was just.

shooting today very accurate I just got. a new ho bow it's amazing so I don't. know how they do it but they keep making. these compound bows better every year. but this new one's incredible and we're. shooting I was shooting super accurate. up to 60 yards oh my gosh so if you're. you know a guy as good as Remy is who's. literally a professional Hunter and you. crawl close enough to bison to get him. yeah so he shot a bison and harvested it. wow yeah but I mean Indians did that all. the time I shouldn't say Indians Native.

Americans well there's yeah they some of. them prefer to be called Indians I in. Montana Yeah It's Tricky if yeah you got. to kind of like ask them you have to. know what do I what are you pronounce. sir right right right right yeah so um I. know that there's wild bison that live. in Mexico and um H I know that from. Steve Steve Rell actually hunted them in. in Mexico and uh yeah and this. traditional ranch they have this. incredible way of taking care of it. because they you know they've never had.

electricity in this area and it's like. this whole they this long history of. hundreds of years of hunting them this. way so they do all these different. things to dry out the meat and they make. these like thin cuts of meat and hang. them from sticks and dry them in the Sun. and and smoke them and do all kinds of. different things to the meat really. interesting but this was one of the last. when they were all wiped out from or. almost wiped out from North America a. few of them survived in Mexico H so.

Remy's bu on Sonora Desert Mex oh so he. did it in Mexico says KY oh interesting. oh was it Kyo okay so but it was in. Mexico so he put the Pelt on and did the. whole deal making him a costume yeah. sewed it into his camo huh. yeah it's a big coyote but it's. definitely coyote is't that interesting. though oh yeah wow crazy that it worked. Yeah well yeah the Native Americans knew. it for well for sure a buffalo or a.

bison is not going to be scared of a. coyote yeah not at all so if they see. that they're like and wolves too for. that matter I mean there were millions. of Bison on the Prairies with tens of. thousands of wolves and right if you. were healthy or you protect your calf. you're fine yes yeah have you ever read. uh coyote America no. Dan Flores who was uh greatan yeah and. he was one of rell's professors oh wow. yeah that's how he met him oh wow but. Dan has a very interesting theory about.

the population of bison and why there. were so many and he thinks it's tied. into the plague and when Europeans came. across the country and 90% of Native. Americans were wiped out because of. disease yeah and he thinks that's why. there was millions of bison in the field. this overpopulation a bison because the. Predators had gone away really yeah it's. I think the the the paper is called. Bison diplomacy bisin ecology is that.

what it's called I'm gonna look have to. look that up Dan Flores is awesome he's. he is yeah so so interesting yes and the. book coyote America is crazy I'm gonna. have to I'm going to Google it it's so. good yeah there it is okay it's a bison. ecology and bison diplomacy the Southern. Plains from 1800 to 1850 so his theory. which I think is is a very valid one and. it should be researched it should be at. least considered that the reason why the. early native settlers uh excuse me the.

early um European settlers did not see. enormous herds of Bison is because the. Bison weren't enormous herds back then. because bison have a long gestation. period they're fairly easy to hunt. because they're very large animals and. you know if you're especially yeah and. if you have horseback you can get pretty. close to them shoot them with arrows and. they were very effective at hunting them. and particular the Kaman lived entirely. off of bison and they were right here so. right here in this area they're just.

nothing but bison eating bison. constantly and so they probably did a. really good job of keeping the. population in check then Along come. Europeans and their dirty diseases and. you know this is what the the primary. theory is what wiped out the Maya wiped. out the Aztec wiped out the people that. lived in um the Amazon jungle it's all. European settlers and they're dirty. diseases mhm and so that when that. happened then you have what's similar to. no wolves in Montana and you have 20,000. elk in a place that really has a. carrying capacity for like what six or.

like what do you think was like the. correct number when there was 20,000 um. elk there what's the correct number of. of elk what would be like a healthy. population the the the food sources. could I would say right now there's. about 6,500 I think um elk in the. northern herd we're not talking Olive. yell Stone this is herd that's been. studed where the wolves are that's where. it's at now it's stabilized there's. lions and people outside the park and. and wolves and bears all these things. and that's where it's at and that's with. everything and it hasn't changed because.

the number of wolves too went from you. know zero to 35 31 to 160 165 in the. last 10 years it's been right about 100. wolves every year because they contain. themselves by killing each other and. defending their resource so they're. stable right now the wolves are not. increasing anymore is that one of the. main reasons how they die or the main. ways they die is killing each other. killing each other and trespassing. people go oh that's awful I said not. really I mean if you had somebody coming.

into your home to steal your goods. wouldn't you shoot them if you had the. chance or wouldn't you defend your home. like those loggers you almost had to. shoot you defend your home right. yourself your family the wolves do the. same thing it's sort of like what's. going on with the wars everywhere in the. world the wolves do the same and they. don't always kill the the trespassers if. they can catch them they beat them up. pretty bad sometimes they kill them. sometimes you may have a benevolent pack. leader that just kind of has the Wolves. Chase it off but wolf mortality the. greatest rate I think it's like 70 plus. perent 75 is wolves killing other wolves.

in Yellowstone Park non pack members is. their action dependent upon the amount. of resources that are available like. would they be more reluctant to kill a. wolf if there was plenty of food for. everybody just get out of here whereas. if they were struggling they' go this is. a real problem having this wolf around. so you'd have to go to the Yellowstone. researchers to look at it but I would. say. genetic relations if it's closely. related they're more likely to not kill. it and if there's abundant food they'd. be more likely to probably not kill it I.

think it's a combination of the two one. of the things that Dan Flores talks. about in coyote America is the expansion. of of coyotes and that the reason this. took place is that coyotes were targeted. by Grey Wolves yes so they had develop. this ability to recognize when one of. the pack had been killed they would. expand their territory and the females. would have more pups the coyotes or the. Wolves the coyotes okay cuz the Wolves. so the wolves are killing the coyotes so. the this is why there's coyotes in. literally every state and every city in.

North America now where there wasn't 100. years ago is that because they have this. history of being persecuted by the. Wolves y because they don't breed with. Wolves but they do breed with rev wolves. so where you get your Kai your koi wolf. is a coyot and a red wolf on the East. Coast right Mexican wolves do they do. with Mexican wolves the animal up in the. northeastern part of the US is called a. koi wolf and it's a coyote mixed with a. wolf of Unknown Origin mixed with dogs. and there's lots of theories out there. and I'm not up on the most current.

theory the original wolf up there was. more like the red wolf then you get down. here and down in Louisiana Texas Florida. there's truly red there were red wolves. and now they're just at the alligator. refuge in North Carolina but those are. being bred out of almost out of. existence because they're hybridizing. with coyotes right so interesting yeah. different story but it the grey wolves. do not hybridize with coyotes was his. point and that this no not hardly ever. oh sometimes they do well up in the the. Great Lakes if you look at those wolves.

that's where you started doing wolv. stuff they look a little bit like coyote. and the mitochondrial DNA shows some. traces of coyote but it's very uncommon. when a wolf when a wolf encounters a. coyote they kill it yeah what's. interesting you were talking about. rell's show that they don't kill. foxes so they were I mean the so you get. a fox it's like 10 lb you get a coyot. it's like 30 lb you get wolf it's 90 to. 100 PS it's about three times between. each step so the ones that are closest. so for coyotes the foxes are a threat.

they kill them for the Wolves the. coyotes are a threat and they kill them. but a 100 pound wolf and a Tom PA Fox it. might be a nuisance and you let it. scavenge but it's not a threat to you. right it's not going to compete with you. it's not going to take out a bison. exactly so when wolves come back on the. landscape it happened up where we are. happened at Yellowstone where it's just. been a coyote economy for since the. Wolves were taken on coyotes rule right. I love Coyotes too but I should say love. I really respect them but when you have. the Wolves coming back and they start.

displacing and killing and hammering on. the coyotes well surprise all of a. sudden red fox are coming back and like. where I work in the North Fork all those. early Winters we had people out all. winter on skis tracking wolves we never. saw fot track uh fox tracks never and. and I never caught one in a Wolf Trap. and then as time went on and the Wolves. took a foothold so to speak a toe hold. in the country and they started. hammering the coyotes all a sudden. there's Fox I got Fox dening on my.

property now so will coyotes Target. foxes oh yeah big time interesting big. time and I so they considered them. competitors sure I mean in places do. they eat them I don't you know what I. haven't followed that I don't to track. that that closely but I would guess most. of the time not unless they're. incredibly hungry I would guess it's a. strict a eliminating your competitor. situation I've seen I mean you can look. at the data in Yellowstone they have. witnessed tons of times of wolves going. up to Coyote dens and digging out on. killing all the pups and trying to kill.

the parents and wow I don't think they. usually eat them I I could be wrong in. that but I don't think so it's. interesting because that's one of the. theories about why K it was originally. one of the theories why coyotes killed. dogs and and coyotes kill cats is that. they're competitors but then they. started eating them so I maybe. originally that was the case because. again the expansion into urban areas is. fairly recent yeah and urban urban. coyotes are not real wild they'll eat.

whatever they get they habitualized. right just like we were talking about. different their behavior changes totally. yeah and it's really interesting to me. how how amazingly versatile coyotes are. because I am starting to see wolves. being the same that they're much more. generous than I would have thought and. that they can adapt a situations pretty. easily like that wolf pack raising its. pups in the subdivision crazy it is. crazy that would be so cool though. imagine if you live there I know and as.

long as you don't have a Poodle right. cuz they do eat dogs they do eat dogs. when every time I go up to my little. cabin I am very conscientious about not. leaving my dogs outside without me there. yeah I did have a big Malamute killed by. Mount L about 35 years ago o it's a big. dog yeah they don't care they don't care. they can get it prettyy easy mine yeah. yeah you know what's interesting to me. is the propensity that foxes have to. befriend humans yes very strange so so.

this is interesting I me know you you're. a voracious reader obviously have you. ever heard of the study in Russia now. this is I mean we're going to I know. what you're going the fox yes yes yes. yes go explain it book title is how to. tame a fox and create a dog one of the. most interesting books I've ever read. but this this is true I'm not saying. that the 400 wolves is not true but I. doubt it but this is true science. supported by photos that in the 50s or. so this Russian scientist was starting a.

study of foxes and he wanted to select. simply for tameness and by selecting the. Tous male female from these different. fur Farms these are captive Fox to start. with that he would see if if their. morphology or their physical appearance. changed so he went to fur farms and he. was picking just for tameness and. eventually after many years he'd go to. the food farm and this fox would lunge. in him and snarl he'd leave it and they. say oh this one over here in the corner. she rubs against the fence when you go. to feed her he'd take that one but over. years they have photographs of these.

foxes and they start changing they were. Silver Fox a lot of them instead of red. and they're they're black and white they. kind of look like border colies and they. start to have you know tipped over ears. and they got pictures of the guys in the. pens one person's bent over and there's. a fox standing on their back while. they're putting out the food bowl and. the other I mean crazy yes and so that. was in a very short time that they. changed the the behavior the picture. well you're leaving a little bit of it. go ahead one of the things that they did. was whenever any of the foxes exhibit.

any kind of aggression they shot them. right so they only allowed the very. docile submissive foxes to but then. their eyes started getting larger their. snout started getting shorter and their. ears started dropping really quick I'm. glad you read it cuz I I suggested to. your friends because I'm passionate. about all canids well all things. and it was one of the most amazing. pieces I've read Because if you think. about humans domesticating animals we. took some kind of a primitive form of a. horse and a cow and a sheep and we got.

our breeds now for years they had bears. in captivity brown bears in Europe. Forever Living in King's castles and. doing riding the bicycles in the circus. and whatever but in terms of North. America of course Min anywhere in the. world nobody's domesticated the African. wild hunting dog nobody domesticated. European links nobody has successfully. taken a wild predator and bred it long. enough with heavy artificial pressure by.

our selection like shooting them in the. head if they aren't friendly right and. turn it into a different animal with the. exception of wolves that is really. fascinating It's really fascina because. that's never been done to tigers or. mountain lions think about how many. people have tried to keep Mountain lines. as pets lot of people or coyotes you. keep coyotes and after 15 Generations. they still look like coyotes and they. still behave like coyotes they do and. this little thing with the fur fox it. was. extraordinary artificial selection. pressure to see that yes and they did.

change a bit well the fox has a very. strange relationship to humans where uh. that was part of the Timothy tread ball. movie ah in in the movie he had this fox. that was his friend and the fox stole. his hat one day and ran into the den. with his hat he like give me my hat back. and he's like chasing him but it's an. adorable relationship that this fox has. with people with with with him in in. fact climbing on his tent and hanging. out with him and he could touch it he. could pet its head I'm sure he probably. can he or somebody before him had.

probably food condition it to be. accepting maybe but you're talking about. he's up in the grizzle maze in Alaska. like maybe just never seen a human maybe. that's more it seems but there seems to. be some sort of a strange history of. comfort where this animal that's a 10B. animal is comfortable around 50 lb man. for no real reason like he's not giving. it anything like just him being around. and it would lie down in front of him. and and Sun itself and and play around.

him right is a there was a weird. relationship that humans have had with. foxes of course Mr Treadwell was not. really in the bell curve on the big high. point in the normal range either of of. normal behavior right but I've had. friends that have had encountered with. foxes they are they're really unique and. they're also they really adapt well to. people they in agricultural areas I've. got him D I mean we see them all the. time now they're a different animal than. a coyote or a wolf it's just such a. strange little fellow that like wants to. be your friend you know very interesting.

you don't see that a lot with Wolves no. you don't I have a a fox that visits my. yard because I have chickens and we have. to shoe them out every time he comes. into the yard but they make the craziest. noise they do like uh I didn't know. about the noise to my friend Jim Brewer. who uh has foxes near his house in New. Jersey. they this czy scre and I was like what. what does it sound like and then this. little guy that lives in my neighborhood. does it in my yard I got a video of him. in my yard going yeah crazy I've heard.

it it's an so what it's kind of. interesting to think about the early. relation of people with Wolves I talk. about that in a woman Among Wolves my. book is there was a couple of. paleontologist or sociologist that. speculated and I can't say if their. theory is correct or not but um they. speculated that when people were still. living in caves and having Spears and. nles that they would watch so people. were living in a family group in a pack. the Wolves were living in a family group.

or a pack they would watch the Wolves. chasing through a herd of whatever. animal they were at that time depending. on where they lived and eventually. getting one tired enough or maybe it was. a had a bad Lang and they would. surround it and eventually kill it and. then they speculate that the the humans. would learn that you know what we can go. up to that killed orex or whatever they. had just killed the Primitive horse and. let's drive those Wolves Away we got. tools we can kill the Wolves if we have.

to so they some then it changed to where. maybe those wolves had come around when. the animal was cornered but not not dead. and the humans would come in and do the. final blows and drive the Wolves Away. and take what meat they wanted and then. leave and the Wolves could then come in. and get the spoils of all the work that. they had done that the humans had taken. and that there this is their theory that. there was this. relationship just because it's a brutal. world not Synergy and not altruistic and.

not oh this this cute just like hey. people look at those wolves got uh an. animal a camel cornered over there let's. go kill it take what we need wolves. would come in and that that sort of. began potentially the process of wolves. and people beginning to interact I hate. to hesitate to use the word collaborate. but right this is an idea it it's an. interesting idea also and the the. interesting idea it sort of coincides. with the idea of the introduction of. Agriculture so you have the introduction.

of Agriculture so you have resources. that are more abundant and you have more. animals and so if these people lived in. a resourcer environment where there was. plenty of meat and they didn't have to. worry they you could see how maybe they. would throw some scraps at a cute little. wolf that's near the fire there's many. ideas about how dog. right the the ones who were least afraid. hung around what they did with the foxes. over just the course of a few. Generations this took a few thousand. years yeah and then people would grab.

one of those wolves or let them hang. around and then you know around they. would clean up the aul oal around the. camp and whatever there's many ideas of. course nobody knows but what what is. kind of known is the dates from DNA and. and carbon dating the dates at which. humans were able to domesticate. livestock and the dates at which humans. were able to domesticate dogs from. wolves and domesticating dogs preceded.

livestock livestock was like 11,000. years ago roughly of all all species. swine horses cows whatever sheep so was. it possible that the initial. domestication of wolves into dogs took. place in a in a a very gameer. environment where they didn't have fight. over resources and no livestock no Liv. exactly cuz it hadn't happened yet right. so there would be more opportunity. potentially for these animals again I'm. not saying it was to help each other so. much but they took advantage of each. other's strengths and weaknesses the. wolf's strength was being able to H run.

something down until so tired that. people didn't do that and then people. say oh yeah that thing's crippled over. there let's go kill it and we'll get our. meat and then woles can have the rest or. whatever was there also a a. consideration that during these times. this was a hunter Gathering time where. they really didn't have a preservation. of meat there was no way to store it so. you had to continue to hunt gather so if. you had an abundance you didn't think oh. I'll stockpile this for the next few. months that was never even an. afterthought probably not unless it was. in the tund was and it was winter time. they could freeze it but the.

relationship of I mean there's many. dates that said about one people. domesticated dogs and it varies a lot. but I think there's some consensus 30. 35,000 years ago wow was that long ago. long ago long I didn't know that and you. can you can Google it Jamie but W I. thought it was like 10,000 no because it. happened significantly before we began. domesticating livestock so what I'm. saying is there wasn't a conflict base. resources were abundant there wasn't. protection of our livestock there wasn't. this and that and eventually people took.

when livestock became a thing then. eventually people would take a wolfik. can at a dog that we domesticated and. then I find it interesting to train it. to Keep the Wolves their wild cousins. away from the livestock talk about wow. crazy yeah humans are so creative with. what they can do and dogs are so plastic. I mean you take a wolf and you put a lot. of pressure on it and eventually you. come up with a golden retriever and a. graffan and a poodle because they have a.

lot of domestic they have a lot of. plasticity genetically morphologically. behaviorally that I don't think a lot of. the other species have or would show up. when we try to domesticate them that's. just my theory yeah well it's it seems. to be uniquely adaptive yeah right. totally have are you aware of uh the. baboon that raise dogs no yeah there's. baboons that take puppies and they use. the puppies as guards so they they keep. the puppies near them and they keep.

these dogs near them they don't kill. them and the the dogs like allow them to. uh sleep so that they could be alerted. to any Intruders the dogs bark it sounds. no different than us it's bizarre to. watch there film footage of these these. see if you can find it baboons with. these dogs like drag the dogs like what. am I doing the babo like get over here. they don't kill it no they they use them. I mean I'm sure they probably kill a few. of them they kill babies like baboons. are pretty damn ruthless I've been. Africa and I don't like baboons scary. animal because it seems like a dog.

monkey like it's it's got a face like a. dog it's a weird animal right cuz unlike. any other primate they they have a. completely different jaw structure their. teeth oh my gosh they look like a dog. it's like an extended snout very strange. animal yes I find colorful and beautiful. and creepy and all all the things I. agree i' I'm up so um so these are these. are dogs that are being raised they. raised these feral dog look how he's.

dragging the dog like get over here poor. dog like they're not very kind from I. was trying to read on what was going on. so some people think that it might not. be be they might not be being raised. that it's some sort of play but they're. in I think this is taken from a trash. pit in but did you see that other larger. dog that was over there there was a. parent dog look like a wolf he's really. wailing on controlling it he's trying to. control it so I don't's enough in his. butt processing data processing data. just like our dogs yeah and they hold on. to him by the tail it's kind of crazy. and they drag them around po if you back.

it up there was a larger dog that was in. the background yeah like there that dogs. barking so I think the theory that I. remember reading was that they had. figured out that if they keep these dogs. around the dogs are good Watch Dogs well. I'm going to have to Google that and. look up the see this my first thing I'm. a researcher like I want to know this. Source I want to know where it came from. there's a debate over it I trying to dig. into the viral video of baboons in Saudi. Arabia garbage dump led to speculation. baboons kidnapped puppies and keep them. as pets however some say the baboons. were likely just playing with the.

puppies that the relationship is not an. analogous to pet owner relationship. maybe um there've been a lot there's a. lot of weird studies on uh garbage dumps. and baboons have you ever read. sapolsky's work no I haven't Robert. spolski uh did this study on a. particularly vicious primate what was. the book book he wrote like 20 years ago. something primate yeah I've read long. ago book I haven't read currently I. don't remember but the study that was. fascinating was that they found that.

there was one contaminated pile of. garbage and of course the most vicious. Alphas were the ones to eat first so. they died and they got sick that's the. one I've read primates Memoir it's old. it's 2002 say said 20 years ago not too. far off he's amazing I've had him on the. podcast that was a fascinating book you. have I'll have to look for it super. interesting guy oh yeah especially the. toxoplasmosis Gandhi discussion like to. talk about lions parasites do you know. about lions and wolves and toxoplasmosis. what's going on so in Yellowstone it's.

it's basically a doge eat cat World down. there for the most part because of pax. of wolves and the Lions but they have. found that because the dogs are. coexisting with the Lions and sometimes. ingestor scatter they're God anyway they. eat some part of it they get exposed. they have found with now the wolves have. toxo mosis and what what happens is. there is something like 11 times it's a. huge amount I wish I can't maybe Jamie. can Google it more likely to be extra. bold and leaders of a pack than a dog.

than a wolf that does not have. toxoplasmosis and these these wolves. that have the parasite take. extraordinary risks and are more likely. to die and lead the pack to death so in. the long run it's sort of a cat's. revenge on the Wolves well one of the. things saal 46 more times likely to be. Pack Leaders incredible isn't that wild. they're 11 times more likely to leave. their birth packs and do so at a younger. age and when they do that they're not. very well set up to survive so palski. found out when he was doing his.

residence that the there's a. disproportionate amount of motorcycle. victims that test positive for toxo so. they test them and they find out this is. one of the reasons why these guys are. taking these crazy risks Risk Takers. because you have toxo see it's and it's. it's really parasite from cats czy. another book you'd like to read is. called uh spillover have you read that. by David Quan no I haven't so he wrote. it in I think 2017 it's an older book. maybe 2012 and he wrote It's a spillover. from wild animals this QA m m NN wild.

animals to human populations and it. starts with a horse disease in Australia. that becomes some extremely viral. terrible disease in humans and he. actually traces back the origins of HIV. and all this happened before covid wow. and it just was so setup because Co is. the same kind same kind of a deal but. it's a fascinating book and because you. got an inquisitive mind I think you'd. really enjoy it well Co is not really. because Co was a part of like a lab.

experiment some people don't know yeah. they're 99% sure now at this point that. it was okay it was all gain of function. research that was done there's the. obscuring of the data was done purposely. to try to absolve guilt from the people. that funded the project because the. project was funded and canceled during. the Obama Administration and then when. Trump came along there was a lot of. chaos apparently and they reignited it. and they did it through another Eco. Health Alliance they was very sneaky. about it and when grilled they you know.

fouchy lied about whether or not it was. gain of function research they were. doing in the first place there's a lot. of very there's emails back and forth. but that's beside the point well I'm not. I'm not going to go there because we. have but natural spillover is clearly. real spillover IND documents many many. species and actually it it's fact. fascinating mad cow disease it it's the. same thing mad cow disease is the. craziest one right they force cows to. eat cows surprise you dumbass like and.

then the prons the fact that they can. exist under thousands ofg thousands of. degrees you can't kill them so do you. have CWD here yet in Texas I'm sure they. do I'm sure they do it's not ubiquitous. but I think they're happen see if. there's been cases of CWD and I want to. get to this before I forget so the point. of the thing was that what zsky observed. when these super aggressive baboons ate. all of the garbage that the garbage was. contaminated they died so all the. aggressive ones died and they turned.

into this utopian society so yes and so. they all they started grooming each. other more the males weren't aggressive. anymore the females didn't suffer the. Wrath of the males and they were like. hippie baboons and it lasted for a long. time and I think they eventually. reverted back to the same sort of. typical aggressive alpha male Behavior. as being the the primary leaders of the. groups but for a long time they existed. in this very strange wow atypical.

environment where kind baboons were like. taking care of each other well it'll be. really interesting with with the. resources of the Yellowstone researchers. who do amazing stuff to see what the. long range outcome is from this. realization that you know they're 46. more time likely more times to be a. leader of. and what do these risk-taking behaviors. entail I I'm really excited to follow. this course it and how many of them. unfortunately going to get hit by cars. because of this and wasn't the first. ever released mountain lion or a wolf.

rather that got killed killed by a car. the first one am my understanding the. first one in Yellowstone that released. Wolf the first mortality of a wolf was. getting hit by a UPS truck. crazy poor I just feel kind of bad for. the driver shouldn't laugh I mean. there's a dead wolf but imag that poor. driver you're the first guy oh my God I. just I know know yeah it's horrible. anyway but it's just it's so fascinating. that this toxoplasmosis it could comp I.

mean can implode the population who. knows they might make terrible decisions. how prevalent is it in humans I don't. it's hugely prevalent in France at one. point in time there was 50% of the. population at toxo really yeah in large. populations of people in uh both Latin. America South America places where. there's a lot of feral cats yeah it's a. huge instance of it not only that. there's a disproportionate amount of. people that have toxoplasmosis or in. countries that have toxoplasmosis that. have successful soccer teams and they.

don't know if it's just because a lot of. poor people that's the best way out. become really good at soccer soccer is. really common because everybody plays it. you know they don't know but it might be. that it makes you more aggressive it. makes you more uh you're more interested. in taking risks huh and a little. reckless and if you're a soccer player I. can probably help you to be like really. just go for it and get crazy be more. aggressive and less tentative right.

right no it's crazy it's it's the whole. interface between humans and Wildlife is. becoming a more and more popular field. and if I was young and could do my. career over I wouldn't I wouldn't go. into that because it's really crazy the. CWD the so that when wolves um. encountered first encountered parvo. virus in distemper from. came from people and dogs going into. parks and camping and dogs pooping and. the disease came into being in the in. the 80s but we started documenting it in. Glacier and the first year that I was.

catching wolves and we took blood. samples that the the the they're off the. chart in their immune response. antibodies to that particular disease. and we had most of our pups all die that. year wow boom like that and people don't. think about yeah I got my little dockon. up at you know McDonald Lake and he. pooped and you don't pick it get up and. the wolves get it but the same thing. happened in Yellowstone and they have. certain um years where they have. horrible pup survival it's called. recruitment they don't make it into the. fall but the other thing of Interest so.

uh they've been learning by studying. coat colors of wolves and Yellowstone. that genetically the ones who carry the. gene for the black coat color they have. a different disease resistance to those. diseases than the greywolves ah. interesting and it's certain maybe Jamie. could look that up but certain times. when the disease prevalence is higher. the Wolves will select a mate of a. certain color because their genetics. prove to be an asset to the survival of.

those pups it's crazy do the ones with. the darker coats do they or do they. originate from denser forests so this is. they also been looking at that so when I. first came to Montana many of the Wolves. were black and now it's probably 5050 or. less in Minnesota the original. Midwestern wolves were gray and now. they've got black color jeans in there. it changes with a population density but. what I learned to my best knowledge it's. a it's a kcus gene and they think that. when people domesticated dogs from.

wolves and we took the Wolves into. captivity and we mutated they had. mutations that we helped survive that. Gene for black color coat was from dogs. and then dogs got breed a little bit. into the Wolves occasionally and that. coat is from a dog interesting doesn't. mean that animals out there that are. black are hybrids I'm just saying it. goes back thousands of years so the. earliest descriptions of wolves did they. describe them like what is the earliest.

known like written human history of. wolves did they describe them in a. particular. color oh boy you know what I haven't. gone me if you look at ramulus and Remis. those were gry wolves in in Rome right I. don't know you know I'm not I'm not a. paleontologist the thought would I was. just getting to like if you're thinking. about a place like the Pacific Northwest. for example where you have dense. rainforest it would probably be uh a. benefit to be darker you could hide a. little the idea like having Arctic. wolves being white yes exactly but it's.

the K Locus for the black color Gene and. it depends on if they're homozygous or. heterozygous and one is here you go one. of the earliest written references to. black wolves occurs in the Babylonian. epic oh it's in Gilgamesh so that's uh. 6,000 years ago uh the titular character. reject the sexual advances of the. Goddess Ishtar reminding her that she. had transformed a previous lover a. Shepherd into a wolf thus turning him. into the very animal that his flocks.

must be protected against whoa wow heavy. it is heavy I love to know what the root. of that story is huh yeah um so that's. so fascinating here you. go yeah this would be uh disease. outbreak select for ma choice and coat. color and wolf so all dogs come from. wolves so you have wolves wolves get. domesticated into dogs then some dogs. reintroduce their genes into. interbreeding with wolves and somehow or. another this black coat Co color comes.

into play yes wild it is literally and I. expect from people living in Northern. latitudes the Inuits and the Native. Americans throughout Russia and across. the north you know they they kept dogs. to and they brought them to wolves and. made better sled dogs but um an early. reference told me that the native the. dog native to North. America was brought over here there. wasn't the Native Americans didn't have. dogs here thousands and thousands of. years ago that's what I've been reading. well one of the things that I learned.

from um part by Europeans yeah that's so. crazy that that's that's one of the. things um that um Dan Flores was talking. about was that horses came from here but. then they were all they all died off yes. and Pro I don't know exactly why but. probably during that mass extinction. event where 65% of all the megap died. and then the Europeans reintroduce. horses and so the Native Americans. initially didn't have horses and then. some were really good at it and those.

are the ones that thrive like the. kamanche the Spaniards brought horses. 1500s and that's how they got their. horses but before that but the horses. came from here originally even the. horses in Africa even zebras originated. genetically originated in the North. American continent I didn't know that. like what the hell I didn't know that no. it's crazy zebras too yeah zebras how. nuts that is nuts well we also have an. animal the Pronghorn anvelope yes that. is a prehistoric animal it's only yeah.

it's the only here it should not be here. and the only reason why it's here and. the reason why it's so fast this article. says something about the I don't just. gets really deep in the gentics the kcus. and codes has something to do with them. having can9 distemper virus that they. they're immune more immune to. respiratory infections so anyway yeah. and then the other thing is which they. probably got from dogs yes probably to. temper yeah well I don't know how long. this temper goes back the other thing. with uh the prorn I mean I just came.

from hunting wolves we were seeing I. mean hunting birds we were seeing prorn. everywhere analou yeah I love them but. they're really prear and do you know do. you know why they run at 60 mil an hour. because we used to have a North American. sheep cheetah exactly yeah the Cheetahs. Whitted the limbs of the analou was it. what yeah that's why they're so fast. they're fast they're so much faster than. any predator in North America they got. to be 60 miles hour out running cheetah. not not there and they're still here and. the Cheetahs are gone but they're one of.

the very few of those weird animals like. the North American lion like all these. different like there was a North. American lion that is way bigger than. the African Lion I've read that I mean I. mean I I would love to P paleontologist. there's so many things I would like to. do again and do over but there's a lot. of interesting things in this world and. we're still just learning we still have. to listen to people experts and do a lot. of reading and think for ourselves well. thanks to you we know a lot more about. wolves and so I really appreciate you. being here the book is a woman amongst.

wolves my journey through 40 Years of. wolf recovery yep Diane Boyd can I read. you just a 30 second introductory. paragraph sure then it'll give you and. your readers a flavor of what it's about. so it's it's a memoir it's all real it's. not a forward introduction. there we go okay see if I can see it h. do glasses I got glasses. okay sorry should have had it already no.

worries no worries hang on um can I ask. you before you do that yes are you gonna. read the audio. book no no no there's a story there too. Dam we can talk about that after this. just be 30 seconds okay my pickup banged. and rattled along the pothole inside. Road in North in the northwest corner of. Glacier National Park boxes of wolf. traps and jars of bait slid across the. truck bed I was in a hurry my mind. focused on the wolf caught in a trap. somewhere ahead in the lodge pole Pine.

Forest out of the corner of my eye I. noticed Motion in my rearview mirror I. looked up to catch the glassy reflection. of vivid yellow eyes framed by a wolf's. black face looking over my shoulder from. the back seat how did I get here wow. that's the opening for my book that's a. that's a it's not a tiger yeah but still. so you asked me about uh what did I ask. you about oh the audio book so the audio. book so when I signed my contract this.

is my debut book a woman Among Wolves. I've not written a book I've published. scores of scientific articles but not a. book I signed the contract and I love. working with Greystone they're a. fantastic publisher just a standard. contract I signed away the rights for. movie audio etc etc but I get a share of. the. royalties and stuff so when somebody. bought the bid on and bought the media. rights for audiobooks months before it. was produced and and I didn't hear about.

it for a while and by the time I'd heard. about it they just started producing it. and I said well I'd like to read for it. I sent off an audio tape of my voice and. um looks like they would need to do a. bunch of polishing and it was almost. September and they would I would be. recording for weeks it takes like what. polishing uh anunciation and I don't. know oh they have to teach you how to. say it differently I mean I think I'm a. pretty fair speaker but just anyway it. would take some training and then it. would more important would take up so.

much time it takes like 80 hours to. produce an 8 Hour. a the authentic version of this book is. going to be in your voice maybe when the. rights expire but I maybe they would. just listen to this podcast and just try. it I would love that it's not that. expensive to get you in a booth for a. couple of weeks they hired a. professional actress the other thing was. this happened just before bird hunting. season open a Montana it's like sorry I.

get it I get it I really do you time. precious Steve Rella said the same thing. like you made a big mistake di it's like. I kind of didn't have options it's okay. well either way um I'm sure it's awesome. and I really appreciate you being here. it was a lot of fun I really enjoyed it. it's been a blast Joe thank you so much. for having me as a ga you just treated. me royally this has been wonderful I'm. glad you had fun thank you very much all. right bye everybody bye.