Joe Rogan Experience #2211 - Michael Shellenberger

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day Mr shellenberger good to see you. good to see you man how you been. man every day every day NE deep neck. deep in the chaos of the world I made it. I made it to Brazil and back so put it. that way what was that like it was. intense man I mean it was uh it's still. going on um we did Twitter files Brazil.

right and 3 days later that was back in. March 3 Days Later Elon just throws down. and starts to attack this main Supreme. Court Justice who's the guy that's now. banned X so X is banned in Brazil. they're in negotiations but it was very. exciting to be there because and the. Brazilians were just relieved they were. like everything that we thought was. happening as proven by the Twitter files. Brazil and they were just very grateful. to.

so it's been what did the Twitter fires. I know about the Twitter files America I. don't know about the Twitter files in. Brazil so they this is like one of the. most extreme forms of censorship we've. seen in Democratic countries um India's. been pretty bad too but this what they. were the worst of it was that they were. sucker is it yeah it's just bring it up. to you how's that that better good to go. this is the most dramatic part is that. they were the judge this is a Supreme. Court Justice who is basically the.

dictator of Brazil is had was demanding. that particular journalists and. politicians just be banned not only from. X but from every other social media. platform which is a tactic that we had. seen in earlier censorship files we had. done something on something called the. Cyber threat intelligence League uh with. taiii showing this it was an early. military censorship operation and they. had had a list of tactics and one of.

them was to get people banned on every. platform so you're basically like just. deerson people just destroying their. career you can't make a career on as a. journalist or a politician if you're. banned from every. platform so that was the one of the most. dramatic Parts all in secret all and you. know open investigations ongoing and. basically nobody there's no checks and. balances there's no chance to argue with. it so that came out and Elon responded. like three days later and was like yeah. Brazil's like worst in the world and.

just starts attacking the Supreme Court. Justices like Darth Vader and Voldemort. and doing what Elon. does fast forward to last month and they. had a huge protest in s Paulo one of the. largest Free Speech protest in history. which was itself just amazing and. inspiring because you know it's a free. speech has been something that we didn't. really think we had to fight for so to. see like hundreds of thousands of people. in the street of s Paulo was amazing I. was there with the former president he.

sort of sees me brings me up I'm up up. on top of the stage he's you know just. you know B you know yelling at the crowd. everyone's worked up you know he kind of. looks over at me and covers the mic and. he's like it's shellenberger right you. know he's like Michael shellenberger is. up here and the crowds just you know. they knew about the Twitter files. afterwards we go down and it's just you. know it's just a lot of emotion and. anger but also hope the Brazilian people. are for me it's like one of the most.

exciting cultures in the world because. they're so expressive the president like. while he's speaking he's like crying you. know it's a very like emotionally open. culture so now I mean the question for. Elon and they're having to to negotiate. this is do you do you out of principle. keep you know X banned in Brazil to. defend the several dozen people that the. government is requiring be banned. permanently but that means that 20. million Brazilians are denied X as a. platform or or do you go along with what.

the government's demanding and hope to. fight for another day and that's what's. happening now the the 12 people it's 12. people we we actually don't know but it. probably under a hundred and what are. they being accused of that the. government is saying is so important. that they need to be banned. misinformation you know it particularly. you can see every country in the world. is particularly obsessed with covid. misinformation and election. misinformation so but to give you an. example of how how arbitrary and unjust.

it is there's one of the members of. Congress who's one of the most dynamic. he's not actually in the party of. bolsonaro that's the the controversial. former president he's in a different. party um his name is Marcel Von hotton. and he was he got in he didn't even know. this until the Twitter files Brazil came. out and then Elon did release because. the House of Representatives Jim Jordan. asked for these internal files from a he. subpoenaed them so we even learned more. information from those files.

they they showed that vanon hton had he. was he was supposedly being deplatformed. for election misinformation but it. turned out that the video he posted was. posted the day after the elections and. it had to do with labor issues had. nothing to do with elections and that's. just really common I mean you just see. it's just arbitrary rule by one guy. that's why I say it's a dictatorship and. has there been any debate or discussion. like has anybody try to hold them to the. fire as to why these people are being. banned and please prove that this is.

misinformation has there been any sort. of discussion oh huge I mean it's maybe. one of the biggest issues in Brazil it's. the president of Brazil who probably. hasn't gotten enough criticism for it. because he's going along with it he. defended the censorship this is Lula I. always heard that he was a great guy. when Gyra balsero was the president the. the the narrative was balsero was a. dictator that he was a bad guy but I. know so many Brazilians you know from. Jiu-Jitsu I know so many Brazilians and.

they all love balsero I was like I am so. confused about their politics over there. I don't know what's going on but Lulu. was supposed to be this guy that was for. the people and to hear that he is a part. of this whole disinformation Crackdown. alleged disinformation crack down it's. so disheartening well yeah I mean for me. person so the funny thing is I had this. just coincidentally I have this deep. relationship with Brazil because I lived. in Brazil in the in the early 90s I was. working I was actually working towards. my PhD in the semi Amazon I went to Rio.

and S Paulo I interviewed Lula in. 1994 sat across from him just like I'm. saying across from you right now what. was your take on him I I love I mean at. the time I loved him I mean I was you. know I was on the radical laugh for. right you know up until you know five. minutes ago and. so um up until the Kool-Aid wore off. yeah I mean even until the I mean really. even up until the censorship part I mean. when when you start censoring you're. just like not to digress but it's kind.

of like you know back in the 90s we were. anti-war pro- free speech and pro and. pro gay rights now the left is is pro. censorship proar and engaged in horrible. medical mistreatment of gay children in. the name of trans medicine so it's like. literally like who changed here right. you know my values did stay the same at. least on those things but anyway I mean. I sat across from and I just said you. know everybody says that you're going to. turn Brazil into Cuba he does love fedel.

Castro but he said absolutely not he. does seriously they like they're Bros. they're no they're Bros I mean but seems. like a bit of a problem the thing is. that in Latin America like like. everybody on the left even some of the. center left they actually had a lot of. respect for Fidel um I know I know it's. amazing but they really did so crazy. yeah um he's a very Fidel's a very he. was a very charismatic person I actually. met him too really I met all these guys. I met ug Justin Trudeau's dad oh hell.

yeah have you seen the photographs it's. crazy it is crazy it really is crazy. it's I mean but he kind of looks like. his dad. too I yeah maybe I mean for me it's like. R it's like Ronan Pharaoh the r pH Frank. Sinatra one is just insane yeah that is. not Woody Allen's kid like no if that. one's more dramatic than the that one's. crazy I mean that looks like Frank. Sinatra what are the odds unless like. she loves Sinatra so much she like.

willed him into existence in her own. child uh yeah Immaculate Conception yeah. um but anyway so I mean I asked Lula. directly I said uh and I actually wrote. an article for a left-wing magazine at. the time I said are you going to try to. turn Brazil into Cuba and have. censorship and he said absolutely not. our socialism is going to be Democratic. socialism and that was my attraction to. Brazil too was that I mean here you I. mean into into the Workers Party into. Lula I mean he super he had all the. stuff that you loved about.

the left but he was going to respect. free speech so I you know basically. after the Twitter files Brazil and the. and the workers party you know and Lula. just start defending censorship then I. start going after Lula too and I'm like. you lied to me and this is you know what. do you think Chang. acceptable wow great question I mean. there's a way in which it's the same. thing that changed for the left. everywhere I mean this is the question. we're always asking which is like how I. mean because you know if you read the.

histories I've been you know I'm now by. the way I'm so I'm we're going to spend. three months in Austin every year now. cuz I'm the CBR chair of of politics. censorship and free speech at the. University of Austin oh I'm the first. and only endowed chair there so um so. it's exciting so I'm here and welcome. thank you man I'm really yeah we just. bought a little house and nice yeah nice. so yeah I mean one of the because of. course if you read the histories of free. speech particularly the last couple. hundred years it's really the it's. really the right sense in the left.

there's a few exceptions but I mean. overwhelmingly all the way back to the. original you know French Parliament. where they split you know the French con. where they split people on left and. right became a way to refer to liberals. and conservatives conservatives were. about protecting tradition about. propriety don't say certain things you. know that was like what conservatives. were and then if you go to the United. States like the one of the most dramatic. instances of censorship here is the. early part of the 20th century with the. Sedition Act and that's when the that's. when they were you know arrested ing.

socialists incarcerating thousands of. people I mean it's a crazy. period And so that was the that's. basically the TR that's why when we were. you know in the 90s and up until. recently uh you know Free Speech was. some was part of the left tradition so. what happened I mean one of what what's. clear about the censorship that's going. on is it's it's it's counter populist so. they're going out Zer bolsonaro like. Trump is a populist candidate so one. thought experiment would be if Bernie. Sanders had become president.

2016 would the Deep State have sided. with would they have sided with the. right with the Republicans to censor a. populist Democratic party it's an. interesting question I don't know the. answer to it clearly I mean I would say. the PRI right if you look at what the. global Elite you know the which is kind. of a center-left elite in Europe Brazil. United States. Canada it really wants to censor on.

covid elections and migration and they. do the migration Mass migration stuff. around hate so like if you criticize. Mass migration it's hate speech and you. should be censored so clearly this is a. reaction by the Deep State against. populism which clearly threatens them. their ability to be able to wage war. when they want to wage war to to move. people around I mean this huge I mean. the mass migration that's been occurring. under Biden of course has been happening. in Europe too and everybody's like what. is like what's going on like why why is. this is happening why do you think it's.

happening oh that's a great question I. mean obviously the story that the. traditional story had been that this is. compassionate and you know this is the. right thing to do and want to bring. people in there's so many I mean the. Democrats and the Europeans they went so. far with it that it actually hurt has. hurt them politically like you know. kamla may lose the elections because of. just the mass migration it was like the. number one thing 60 Minutes asked her. about just now you know in Germany the. afd which is considered the farri party. far just means anti-mass migration um so.

they went they went really far I mean. you know I mean I think there's probably. some truth to the idea that Democrats. are bringing in folks to to increase. Democratic voters that's not a. conspiracy theory that's something that. you know John Judas and ruy tesero wrote. a whole book about called the emerging. Democratic majority where they talked. about how Latinos are going to side with. Democrats and then another part of me. just wonders if it's related is that. there is a con there was a concern that. populism. because I mean the the the danger the.

threat of populism is that it's. popular you know so the threat of. populism is that the people actually. govern rather than these deep State. organizations that have constrained that. you know pre- internet constrained what. was acceptable they they narrowed the. so-called Overton. window with populism you get potentially. uh populations that say we don't want to. go to war in UK Ukraine we don't want to.

support Foreign Wars we we don't want to. have M Mass migration and for a variety. of reasons the these deep State. organizations by which I mean you know. Department of Homeland Security FBI CIA. State Department are absolutely freaked. out about it as are the kind of global. Elite that end up supporting the ngos. pushing for that same agenda George. Soros um you know Craig Newark Pi midar. the people that basically end up. financing the NGS that the US government. then comes along and finances. which which by the way is another thing.

that we keep discovering like we'll be. in Brazil and we'll be like wow these. NOS are doing the exact same thing in. Brazil that they're doing in Europe oh. and they happen to be funded by George. Soros they happen to have a factchecking. groups that come along and fact check as. a pretext for censorship they do. Advertiser boycotts against the social. media companies in order to control the. social media companies obviously there. was this huge infiltration of Twitter I. mean since I saw you last we discovered. what basically looks like a CIA to take. over the content moderation at Twitter.

it was former CIA people um ala group uh. which basically was we discovered these. internal memos where they're basically. trying to come in and create a special. new content content moderation which is. of course code for censorship how did. they frame. that they framed it uh it's so. fascinating because of course we can see. all the memos and we have it so it's not. a theory they were they were. addressing they they basically were in.

the internal in the sale the sales. pitches from this althia group they were. selling uh the they were basically. hyping the criticisms that Twitter was. getting for not censoring. enough um and then they were saying well. we're going to bring all this. intelligence experience and you know. we've got these people that are really. skilled at foreign languages I mean they. were promising to bring in people that. spoke all these different. languages and there was some internal. resistance within Twitter but it. basically was on track to happen and. then and then Elon buys Twitter and it.

all all what do you think would happen. if he didn't buy. it I mean I mean honestly I go I mean I. some you I'm careful I don't want to. engage in hyperbole but I do feel like. what we're seeing is totalitarianism. that this is it's not tanks and torture. chambers at least not yet but the this. Instinct this this demand to control the. entire information environment because. of course it's not the censorship is in. service. of actually propaganda they want to they.

both want to they both want to prevent. certain information from getting out and. then they want to promote certain. information and that I this is I mean. when I just reread 1984 by George Orwell. and it's like this is what he's talking. about this is what he's worried about so. do you think when social media first. came along they sort of underestimated. the. potential and they let it become what it. is and then and once it got so huge then.

they tried to infiltrate like perhaps. after. 2016 then they tried to infiltrate and. kind of realized it's a little too late. because there's just too many people. like yourself and substack people and. podcasters just too much too many. popular people on Twitter that have huge. accounts that are on it all day long and. monetizing it and acting as legitimate. independent journalists without any sort. of oversight yeah 100% in fact not it's. not just that they were using social.

media to support I mean CIA intelligence. Community defense department were using. social media for for Arab Spring you. know for the color Revolutions in. Eastern Europe it was a weapon it was. part of what they call hybrid Warfare. you know getting people you know. mobilizing people in the streets to do. regime change to overthrow governments I. mean if you can the holy grail for I. mean it's like sun Su you know the best. way to win is by not having to fight you. know so if you can not have to fire any. bullets if you don't if you you know CIA.

1.0 after World War II you know it's a. crude military overthrow of governments. CIA 2.0 regime change is you put a bunch. of people on the street peaceful protest. get the head of state to resign or call. an early election and then overthrow the. government that way so social media was. a tool of US government. statecraft for whatever that period was. when you know Arabs spring 2011 until. 2016 and then yeah I think it was.

basically. brexit dudte in Philippines is another. right-wing populace that gets elected. Trump and even though I think the. evidence is pretty overwhelming that. Trump was not elected because of social. media he was elected because he defeated. his opponents and his Republican. opponents in the debates and then. defeated Hillary in the election mostly. through conventional. media his use of social media and those. other things clearly triggered a. reaction from these deep State. organizations I I like it it's funny I.

just read this beautiful history of the. printing press and Oxford history and. the printing press at first you know. 15th century first hundred years the. Catholic church is just like we love the. printing press you know we're just. cranking out Bibles and it's going great. and then Martin Luther gets a hold of. the printing press and prints his thesis. which are mostly attacking the church. for corruption for selling indulgences. as a way to uh over you know pay for. your sins basically and he condemns that.

and he literally goes viral I mean when. you read like that history you're like. it's eerily similar to social media I. mean can you I mean it's it's amazing. because well I mean long long story. short there's like a long period of. revolutions and wars and and the. Protestant Reformation and then The. Counter Reformation and they're like the. printing presses they're like hiding. them in people's houses the church and. the the government is trying to is. arresting people for having printing. presses the printing presses go to. Netherland you know they're sneaking the.

printing presses into the Netherlands. and so it's like you can't help but see. you're like wow it's like vpns cuz in. Brazil when they were like we're going. to ban X we like get a VPN you know and. VPN in still hard for people to post. publicly because that would obviously. show that they were on it but still it's. like you're always and this is sort of. an argument this would be an argument. for Elon to cut a deal to get X back up. in Brazil and I'm not saying that's what. he should do I'm just saying one. argument for it is that you know stay in. the game don't let them. confiscate your printing press out of.

you know to make out of principle or. Pride because at some other point you're. going to be able to find a way to work. around that censorship does Brazil have. something similar to our first. amendment they have a line in their. constitution that is extremely strong. that there should be no censorship for. social or political issues the problem. is that their constitution is so long. and it was. created by so many people that then all. these other caveats like you can't.

engage in racism you can't engage in. hate you can't there's the Nazis are the. Nazi part is banned in Brazil so there's. all sorts of other things that I mean. the Constitution is full of. contradictions it's a huge problem it. made me the whole experience by the way. because you know when you're growing up. and you go to and you grow up and you go. to you know you go to you know. elementary school and high school and. the teachers are telling you the. Constitution of the United States is so. special and you're just like oh come on. you you know like whatever but you. realize when you get older and you re.

you realize the First Amendment it's so. radical because basically every other. country in the world certainly every. other Western Country the progression of. free speech was you would ask the king. for permission he like oh King can we. criticize you for this and he'd be like. oh okay we'll allow you to do that but. it free speech was something gradually. granted to the people here as soon as. they get the Constitution done Jefferson. and other anti- Federalists the people. that were pretty skeptical about even. wanting a country we like we need a.

first we need a Bill of Rights and the. first thing up there needs to be free. speech and it's without qualifications. so the free I mean the first amendment. doesn't say it doesn't say except for. liable and defamation and imminent. incitement of violence those things were. built those things were Supreme Court. rulings in the 250 years after the the. Constitution was ratified in 1789 and so. that's why it's so amazing is that like. you just never I mean I this history I.

just read of of free speech it's it's so. amazing because like you get all this. battles over how much free speech to. have is it just for the elites is it for. the people then you get to the United. States and it's just just a clear moment. in history where the founders of this. country were just like [ __ ] it like this. is essential like the speech comes. before the government the government you. don't have a government and then have. free speech we have free speech as an. inalienable right from God or from our.

creator or just something that we're. saying that we have and then you make a. government based on speech so this. orwellian idea that we hear. including you know tragically from. Barack Obama and now his two secretaries. of State John krey and Hillary Clinton. and Bill Gates they're saying we have to. have censorship to protect democracy. it's like the most orwellian unamerican. idea it's anathema how is Bill dates in. this conversation at all that's what's.

confusing a non-elected official who. just owned a software. company my my colleagues don't want me. to talk about don't be don't don't be. conspiratorial about this there's other. explanations already talked about George. Soros the fact the FCC fast-tracked him. purchasing 200 different radio stations. I mean that's kind of run of the mill. corruption um I mean with with with. Gates you get into you get into Epstein. right right so yeah I mean so I'm not.

saying this is the reason but I mean it. is like this is not a theory the the the. current CIA. director uh Bill Burns was at Epstein's. apartment multiple times Bill Gates was. there I I believe when last time I. checked nobody knows how many times. actually Bill Gates was with Jeffrey. Epstein he went out and did this you. know really he did this PBS interview. where he just looks guilty the whole. time and it's defensive talking about. Epstein is that what that woman were. where she when he says well he's dead.

now he said so you be. careful which is just the wildest thing. to say it's weird that yeah like you're. like that's what he was thinking when. she was like why are you he's he's. basically like why are you going on on. about it he's dead it's like well we. weren't talking about him we were. talking about you and your relationship. with him right so I mean look so. obviously there is there was a sex. blackmail operate I mean I'm 90 95% % on. it I think the Wall Street Journal.

reporters who did fantastic reporting on. this are probably 99% that was a sex. blackmail operation they were shooting. film there were one-way mirrors they. were entrapping people there's there's. known connections to mad and I just. don't believe that mad operates in the. United States without CIA approval so. the prevailing theory is which what most. people believe is that they brought. these people there under this premise. that you're going to be there with heads. of state and Industry and famous people.

and scientists and this is going to be. an amazing place where exceptional. people get together then once you get. there you get a little loose and you. start drinking a little and perhaps. taking in some party favors and then. there's ladies yep and they're underage. yeah and they're and then you next thing. and you don't know it but that mirror on. the wall someone's filming you and then. you're owned yeah. so I mean look that's that's possible I. mean I'm not something's going on in the.

fact that they haven't been released The. Client List hasn't been released well or. and that EP was killed in yeah in jail I. mean that's just the most suspicious. thing I mean I mean I don't know anybody. that thinks it was suicide oh I've heard. people argue it yeah they believe it so. I mean look that you know that could. explain it I mean look I think I mean I. think Soros really believes the stuff um. you know I think Gates I mean they're. these are people like when you get that. powerful you don't stop wanting more. power you want more power and so and.

there's also you need to maintain power. in order to protect yourself from all. this stuff that we just talked about. right assuming there's you have. skeletons in the closet I mean we do. know one of his affairs with a young. Russian I think chess player bridge. bridge player that's not contested. that's established um when he was going. through his. divorce the you know uh Melinda you know. like you see the leaks to the New York.

Times about Epstein occurred while she's. negotiating over the divorce right so. clearly she knew. something you don't necessarily need. that you don't need Epstein to explain. Gates but I mean Gates he just came out. with a Netflix documentary this wasn't. some like off-handed remark he comes out. the whole Netflix documentary talking. about specifically at Great length about. why we need to have censorship apparatus. in place and he gave multiple reasons. and one of them's protect people trying.

to tell you not to take vaccines right. protect people from people like you yeah. well I'm not even telling people not to. do anything no but there's people that. are spreading air quotes misinformation. about vaccines right including real. facts well right those are the most. dangerous ones well that's what the most. bizarre is that he himself has changed. his take on it and and he did it sort of. it seemed like to try to cover up the. fact that he was promoting it for so. long and well it didn't work as we. wanted and Co wasn't as bad as we.

thought and you know it didn't really. offer the protection that we you need in. order to actually you know it's on a. sterilizing virus doesn't actually. doesn't actually kill the the virus it. doesn't keep you from getting it right. so it does allow transmission so he kind. of admitted all those things but like oh. we'll do better next time was sort of. the gist of it right and this idea that. you have to use you you can't have. people talking about inconvenient things. that eventually turn out to be true. seems crazy to not push back on and the.

fact that he said that and there was no. response whatsoever in mainstream media. there was no New York Times articles. written about it the Washington Post. didn't cover it and talk about how. [ __ ] insane it is to say something. like that especially after what we've. been through the gaslighting yeah I mean. I just did a debate with uh Bill Nye um. in Florida he's the Science Guy the. Science Guy yeah how could you do a. debate against the Science Guy because. I'm anti-science obviously must be and. you know I mean I just pointed out that.

simple fact that the I just point out. the vaccine didn't obviously prevent. infection or transmission and The Crowd. Oh you know how can you say that and. whatever and it's like because it. because everybody knows it reduced. hospitalizations and reduced death and I. I agree with that I mean I that's fine. but the point isn't I'm not arguing. about the vaccine I'm arguing that it. didn't do what they said it did and. nobody's actually and then they just. Gaslight you as though that were the. reason they were telling you to get the. vaccine in the first place was to reduce. hospitalization and death no they were.

telling you that it was going to reduce. infection and transmission Well. everybody's seen that Rachel Mano clip. right but here's the thing if everybody. took it how do we even know if it. reduced hospitalization and. death we don't know and we when we know. that the fact that the the people that. died of Co the vast majority of them. have four plus comorbidities MH and we. know that some ungodly amount of the. population was vaccinated was it like. 80% something like that so you but. you're saying that we don't know it. reduced death well cuz you could you.

could compare the vaccinated to the. unvaccinated group. right could you though if you have 80%. of the people that are vaccinated and. the 20% that are unvaccinated are they. of a particular political leaning and uh. what are the health metrics of that. particular political leading like has. anybody done some sort of an analysis on. the people that did versus didn't like. what were their health what was their. state of their their physical health or. metabolic health Health before they made. these decisions because ideally what you.

would look at if you wanted to find out. if it if it stopped transmission uh or. or excuse me hospitalization or death. you would want to look at the overall. body of human beings and then we have a. bunch of things that we do know right. okay so we know that here's a group of. people that died well what do they have. in common well the vast majority of them. have comorbidities the vast majority of. them are either really old or obese or. are very ill very very ill so we have.

what was the the actual number of people. that died of covid I think. 99.7 survived right right so it's uh. 0.03 of the people that got Co is it. something like that man I you have to. take into account you also have to take. into account uh how many people were put. on ventilators who wound up dying uh. which we now know was a terrible idea. 80% of the people they put on ventil. ventilators died we know uh REM Desir. had terrible consequences we know. there's a bunch of things that people.

are connecting to the vaccine that no. one is admitting you know and that it co. hospitals and especially employers are. very reluctant to say that these. mandated vaccinations cause these. serious health consequences that we know. are real and then we have this. mysterious uptick of all cause mortality. that everyone wants to conveniently. ignore and no one wants to make some. sort of correlation or causation so do. we really know that it it prevented.

death that that is a good question Jo. I'm not a I'm not a I'm not a covid. vaccine expert but I mean even like. saying that in front of Bill Nye the. Science Guy like he's saying it it. prevented hospitalization and death by. what measurement like how can someone so. confidently say that when we know. there's so much wrong with the vaccine. when we know that it didn't stop. transmission and then we found out it. wasn't even tested to stop transmission. that was all a lie right and the fact.

that they gave it to so many pregnant. women with no tests on pregnant women. there's so much about it where people. want to say this one thing because they. think it will keep them from getting in. trouble and that thing that keeps you. from getting in trouble the vaccine was. good because it prevented. hospitalizations and deaths I'm like how. have you shown that like how do you show. that you know I'm going to I'm going to. go back and look at it I'll talk my I'm. with I'm working with a new colleague. who's an who's amazing expert on the Co. stuff but yeah it's not my area I mean.

look I think obviously they sold it to. us as though it was the polio vaccine. and it was more like the at best it was. more like the it more like a flu vaccine. it was a magic cure right it's not even. like the polio vaccine cuz if you look. at polio have you ever seen the curve of. when the polio vaccine actually comes in. no okay I'll send this to Jamie because. it's quite fascinating most people are. under the impression that the polio. vaccine stopped polio and it's tracks. but the reality is polio cases had.

radically declined before the polio. vaccine came. along it's weird when you you you find. out I mean that's the problem with these. goddamn rabbit holes I'll send this to. you Jamie and this is a bunch of. different vaccines that we associate. with stopping particular diseases and. what probably actually happened was. there was some sort of hurt immunity and. is also the Advent of Sanitation. you know in people in inner cities are. using outdoor out houses there's the.

stopping the use of DDT there's a bunch. of different factors that seem to play. in that but look at where the polio. vaccine comes along yeah that's amazing. wow kind of crazy yeah kind of crazy. totally different than the story we're. told yeah you know another crazy. statistic about polio what's that what. percentage of polio do you think is. asymptomatic God great question I I'm. assuming high right a lot take a guess. 50% 9 99 wow 95 to 99 depending on who.

you ask and the majority of polio cases. today are vaccine derived polio so. there's a particular strain of vaccine. that causes people to get polio and. there's a particular strain of polio. rather that comes from that vaccine so. what's your where are you at what's your. bottom line on vaccines right now like. where do you I am not a vaccine expert. but I am a person that has been lied to. for four years and so blatantly and so. obviously when you look at fouchy. talking to to ran Paul and just lying. openly about whether or not they funded.

gain of function research the fact that. he got away with all that the fact that. the White House tells you for the. unvaccinated you're looking in a winter. of severe illness and death just scaring. the [ __ ] out of people and it seems to. me they were doing that to maximize. profits because they wanted to keep. selling these things and a lot of people. got extremely rich many billionaires. were created because of the the pandemic. because of the covid vaccine it's all. very spooky to me because I think. there's a long history in this country.

of people doing things for money knowing. that people are going to suffer because. of it and it's just sort of a human. thing if you can get away with it if it. is legal and you have the protection in. place and you know that you're going to. profit largely from this you do it this. is also it's also in the United States. is worse because I mean Europe did not. require the vaccine for in fact I. believe in they pulled out a lot quicker. than we did too I mean they not required. for children in particular right like I. I just interviewed uh Tracy hog and she. was saying that she she spends a lot of. time in Denmar and Denmark said don't. give your kids the vaccine and we said.

do and clearly well that's the. difference between socialized medicine. right I mean we're seeing it on the on. the on the trans medicine as well the. Europeans because it's centralized. socialized medicine when they when. Europe say when Britain says you should. not give kids puberty blockers they. block they they end puberty blockers. across all of Britain right they did it. first in the NHS hospitals which is the. socialized medicine and then they did it. for the whole country right and the. conservatives did it right before. leaving office and labor comes in they. go we're upholding it so what is the.

debate with Bill Nye the Science Guy. what was his position well in that case. it was just more like they were I mean. it was like kind of a collective. gaslighting where everybody has now I. mean I think it's unconscious by the way. I don't think they're deliberately doing. it so maybe gas is not fair agree they. go right from like they just have. forgotten it's like it's like retconning. you know the the narrative so they just. kind of go no no it's it's about. reducing hospitalizations and death it's. like but that's not the way you sold it. to us so can we just take a beat and. acknowledge that you've changed your. justification for the vaccine which.

means that it's motivated cognition it's. not like you're like reconsidering. vaccines now that they because what you. should do is go okay the vaccines didn't. do what they said they were going to do. they didn't stop infection or. transmission now maybe there's another. reason we want them and we should. consider it but you should take a beat. and pause before you just sort of rush. ahead to being to. justifying uh vaccines for some other. reason right and what was his. position just I mean the most you know. Peter it's just the same as Peter hotz.

and all of these guys it's very. authoritarian I mean it's very like I. mean what he call science is not act. what what fouchy and hotz and Bill NY. call science is not actually science. because science is a process the way. they talk about it is more like a. Doctrine yeah exactly or a dict and a. dictatorship where it's like science is. done by scien well actually science can. be done by anybody it's like journalism. like you don't like you don't need a PhD. to science like like science is. something that you do it's also not the.

same I mean you some sometimes you have. experiments on Labs but science in the. world of ecological biology is just. going out there and Counting the number. of gorillas or whales so this you know. so they when they say science they they. really mean like obey me that's what. they mean and it's people that are. connected to institutions all of them. very powerful ones right so you're. connected to uh educational institutions. you're connected to um these. pharmaceutical Industries. these various institutions that are. funding media so they have enormous.

influence and power over narratives and. then you have people like Bill NY who's. not even a scientist no I know he's an. engineer which is really wild right like. a guy who's not a scientist is the. science guy and this is the guy that is. uh a spokesperson I find spokes people. for science that are arrogant very. strange it's a very strange thing. because science is a SC there's a. scientific method and that's what. science is science is applying the. scient method to and data and and trying.

to find out the truth based on what we. know it's not trust the experts no. especially when the experts are severely. compromised it's the opposite of that. because remember it comes out it's. science comes out of of Christianity it. comes out of the this desire to. understand God's creation and then over. time the church gives more and more. freedom to these scientists to study. things that end up being quite. inconvenient like the Earth revolves. around the Sun or there's this you know. there's Evolution or all these different. things that scientists discover it's the.

opposite of Doctrine they're discovering. things that are counter doctrinaire. right so it's becoming it's I mean this. is where you know you get to this. science is basically people are trying. to make it take the place of a religion. they're trying to turn it into an. authority and of course it can't do that. because science is just supposed to tell. you how things are it's not supposed to. tell you what you should do that's the. realm of ethics and politics didn't the. concept of it come to dayart in a dream. of of sence. yeah I believe so definitely the idea.

see if you can find how he figured out. where where he initially came up with. the concept of science but it was uh. understanding understanding nature. through. through measurement I forget exactly how. how he came up with it but I'm 99% sure. it came to him in a dream that I believe. it was a an angel that brought him this. information in a dream I mean all these. early scientists including Newton I. don't know that's right French. philosopher mathematician believed that. he had three dreams in November 10th.

1619 that revealed the basis for the. scientific method and his philosophical. methods he was possessed by a genius who. revealed answers in a dazzling light he. went to bed exhausted and dreamed three. dreams he envisioned reforming all. knowledge understanding the nature of. existence and how to be certain of that. knowledge decart's dreams are considered. a philosop philosopher's dream and are. considered to be authentic his. interpretations of the dream dreams are. supported by biographical material. neuroscientific Theory and.

psychoanalytic theory decart's dream is. also the subject of the world according. to mathematics a series of essays that. examines the influence of mathematics on. society the essays consider how. mathematics can be applied to. civilization how these applications. could be beneficial dangerous or. irrelevant so it came to him in a dream. the idea of it initially it's very. interesting right that human beings live. for so long uh before the scientific. method came along and now it has become.

this weird thing that's been captured by. people are so-called experts the spokes. people for the science which is always. dangerous when you have an enormous. group of of intelligent people which the. United States is you the United States. is 330 million people some of them have. degrees some of them are just brilliant. people that have spent a lot of time. studying things and there's a lot of. them there's a lot of people so when you. have all these people debating things. you want to maintain control and push a. narrative that [ __ ] gets very messy and.

the best way to handle that is to have. certain people be the stern purveyors of. the science that's it when you criticize. Anthony fouchy you're criticizing. science right everybody said that it's. incredible that was a wild thing to say. but it's so transparent because it shows. how they really think that you are you. are and it's scolding you are not. supposed to it's the same thing that. happened when Mar Martin Luther. translated the Bible into phonetic. languages because no one could speak.

Latin no one had to read Latin it was. poor they were poor people but when he. translated into German and all these. different languages people could read. and said hey this is up to you to. interpret what God Said the church was. like Hey [ __ ] face you're cutting in on. our racket like we need people that are. the spokespersons for God the one the. the people that are going to tell you. what God meant you don't get to decide. what God meant that [ __ ] dude is. dressed like a wizard he gets to decide. so they you know they're wearing these.

crazy costumes that regular people don't. get to wear which makes you think well. he's got the wacky costume and the Fish. Head hat he must know more than me which. is a weird play on authoritarianism it's. it's a weird it's it's very strange. thing that people accept when people. have costumes on like if cops were. wearing like Nirvana t-shirts and board. shorts you'd be like hey [ __ ] you man. you're just a regular dude right you. know but like you are going 55 and a 50. you know and he's wearing. an uniform like damn I'm getting in.

trouble with a uniform person this is. real no they've they've proven it like. they actually do studies where they if. you put somebody in a white scientist's. code or white doctor's code or put a. stethoscope on them people trust them. more sure it's just automatic it's. incredible it's so deep I do yeah I mean. why not they're scientists they've got a. thescope they know how what my heartbeat. permitted is so the most unscientific. thing is when people say things like the. science is telling us to to do this no. no no no no no science doesn't tell us.

to do anything it's describing reality. you can make predictions right of what. would happen if you do different things. but that's not science telling us what. to do science can't do that and so. especially when you stifle debate yeah. if you're stifling debate you're. stifling science you are anti-science if. you are anti- debating about science. that's right or the at least the data. it's very similar to free speech in that. same way if you're just offending the. speech that you agree with then not. actually defending Free Speech the the. test of whether or not you're defending.

Free Speech same as the test of you're. defending science is that bring it on. well as soon as you're as soon as you're. censoring people like Jay bataria and. you know Peter Mulla and you know Robert. Malone as soon as you're doing that like. okay how is what do you these people are. Rock Solid credentialed Physicians these. these are like Peter Peter Mulla has the. most scientific papers published in his. field in human history like this is a.

legitimate scientist SL doctor and he's. telling you he's telling you he's at the. he's using the actual methods that. you're telling people trust the science. he's actually doing it and he's got a. whole list of credentials to his name. he's a very accomplished person in this. field and yet they're censoring him. because what he was saying was going. against narratives which is so you're. stifling debate which is everyone knows. is the wrong way to do it even if he's. wrong the correct thing to do is to get.

him publicly to talk to someone who is. right and have the world see how this. person who is right is going to correct. him on the errors of his analysis and. then we all learn but instead what do. they do they try to get them booted off. of social media which is very sketchy. Behavior we don't like that flag well. what Francis said we need to do a. devastating takedown of these ringe. epidemiologists referring to the. barington Declaration that bataria and.

the two other and. um kof and then uh um I can't Citra. Gupta from Oxford I think it's the third. but yeah I mean but but I mean even a. more dramatic example is like you know a. lot of the people that did the early. pioneering work showing that Co escaped. from a lab were like Anonymous people on. the internet Anonymous loose that is. legitimate I mean that the idea like. credentialism credentialism is the enemy. of science the idea that you need to.

have some some established credentials. in part because the system reproduces. its own ideology professors give they. hire people and give tenure and give. phds to people who agree with them. that's how they feel like their legacy. will continue they don't normally. promote people uh younger generation if. they have radical disagreements for them. so they're necessarily going to come. outside of the establishment right it's. it's sort of like every other. institution where people want to get. ahead you have to play the rules yeah.

you have to play the game by the rules. that's established by the people that. are controlling the game yeah it's. conformism it's just bizarre when that. happens with Science and Mathematics and. with all these different things that we. thought of as these hard Sciences like. it's information based datab based and. it's even more dangerous when it's in. the health and medical context I'll give. you another example I mean American. Academy of Pediatrics my friend Marty. mcari just came out with this amazing. book called blind spot yeah blind spots. um where he looks at American Academy.

Pediatrics look at what they did they. recommended uh letting babies sleep on. their stomachs that resulted in the. sudden infant death syndrome and babies. like many babies died from that. suffocated right suffocated they. recommended not giving children peanuts. and they created the peanut allergy. epidemic they um and now they're now. they're recommending transgender. medicine in all three cases there was. never any science to support any of.

those positions and it's bizarre because. I was I mean when you read this book or. you kind of look into it you're like. what was going on was there some special. interest or whatever it was just like. ego and also in it was a. desire many cases a desire to to have. answers to problems that they should. never have given answers to peenut. allergies for example there were a few. tiny number of people that tiny number. of kids who had P allergies um but they. came to AAP and they said what should we. do about it a goes well it's better just. to be safe than sorry to to to recommend.

that parents don't give their kids. peanuts they ended up creating the. peanut allergy epidemic they ended up. making and it's incredible story because. you know the other theory of why there's. so many peanut allergies and so many. allergies in general no I don't know if. this is true obviously I'm not an expert. in any of these things that I'm talking. about but the theory is that when you're. vaccinating children and you're using. aluminum which is so you have the inert. virus you have the dead virus and you. have this agitator this thing that.

causes people to have this reaction and. then they find the inert virus they. develop antibodies for it that's how. vaccines work right but that aluminum. causes severe allergic reactions and can. cause you to become allergic to various. things including peanuts this is I'm. butchering this for sure but Brett. Weinstein has made this this argument. and uh he believes that's possibly why. he has a severe wheat out. could be I mean in this case they had a.

pretty good study comparing American. kids to Israeli kids and the Israeli. kids had peanuts at Young ages and they. didn't have these allergies now I don't. know I don't know I don't have to check. they were very vaccinated for Co I mean. it was an interesting way Israelis were. interesting yeah I believe they mandated. it I mean what's so amazing about that. assuming that Marty's account is correct. what's incredible about that story is. that you had so first of all something. like like over 14 years went by before. they did a study showing that depriving. the kids of penuts at a young age was.

creating the allergies but everybody. every there's a whole field called. immunology and there's all these. immunologists who were watching this. happen and they would know from their. basic Theory which has been around for. thousands of years that you would end up. creating allergies right by not having. that early exposure so one of the crazy. so you're always like I have this is I. like another case of this is like we're. we're working on I'm working on this. study of like the last Harvard president.

who came to power cloudine gay who ended. up leaving she was not a great scholar. you know she was actually in trouble for. plagiarism that was that was why she. ended up having to leave but you know. one of that was obviously after those. hearings it was after those hearings and. then said crazy things about someone. commissioned the plagiarism to go after. her because of that but what's amazing. when you look at it uh you know Chris. rufo surfaced this glossery this Dei. glossery div Equity inclusion glossery. that was all these words that you were. supposed to use you basically woke.

language you're supposed to use and she. was she was the Dei going around and. making the professors and the faculty. all use this language I mean it's. orwellian how is it that like these. power you're a Harvard Professor you're. like this accomplished person you've. achieved a lot I mean maybe you're you. know maybe you're actually part of the. prom in some ways but how is it that you. would just some faculty member gives you. a list of a glossery and you just go oh. okay I'm going to use your words it's.

like something's going on in these. institutions where people are bullied. into things that they know are wrong you. know and so it's it's a failure it's not. just an intellectual failure it's like a. failure of Courage as well so that you. just end up going along with I don't. want to be the guy that is accused of. being a racist I don't want to be the. person accused of of causing childhood. peenut allergies even though that's. thing miss out on tenure you don't want. to miss out on tenure there's all these. things going for you but it's it's. classic Emperor's New Clothes where like.

kind of everybody in the room is like. this glossery is racist and insane or. telling parents not to give kids peanuts. is insane because we've never had more. allergies since we started Banning this. how did it go on so long I think that's. one of the things that you know that. that is one of the remedies I think of. the of of the internet age and having. these alternative media that is a remedy. to basically have people calling. [ __ ] on it from outside those. institutions because I mean this is. American Academy Peach if you're just an. ordinary new parent and you're you know.

oh the other one by the way is infant. formula recommending seed-based AAP. recommended seed-based infant formulas. which were terrible for kids and of. course we know that breast milk is. superior for all these reasons and the. antibodies and creating the immune. system response so I mean here you have. the major organization recommending how. to take care of kids with not one but. four separate Health scandals that it. helped to to create why should that. organization even exist anymore right.

you know um and that's just like. literally one of the institutions but if. you kind of just go down you know. Harvard New York Times you know American. Medical Association and you know how. about covid I mean most Americans agree. now that covid was invented in a lab in. China escaped from the lab so you have. another case where the the the these. institutions are actually creating the. problems they claim to be solving. you sound anti-science to me I don't. like how if that's what it is sign me up.

I mean this is actually the subject you. last time I was here you asked me if if. what the new book was and this is what. it is pathocracy is the new book why. Elites subvert civilization and that's. the big question is how is it like that. the institutions and we're taking this. concept of iatrogenesis where the. classic example is you go to the. hospital for some ailment and you end up. getting an inection and die that's. considered that when the healthc care. system creates sickness. taking that and looking at a whole bunch. of other institutions why you know when.

the news media demand censorship and. create propaganda the. FBI creating crimes and entrapment. potentially you know you know with with. informance and others um you know how is. why what's happening in these. institutions that they end up creating. the problems that they're trying to. solve or that they're claiming to solve. it the crazy thing is it seems to be an. emergent Behavior pattern when people. get into power when when people have. power they always go in this very.

particular direction of control yeah and. this was what the founding fathers of. the Constitution the people that F. founded this country when they were. laying it out they were trying to. prevent that from taking place and they. had this very elaborate plan to sort of. subvert normal human behavior to stop it. from taking root in this country and to. make this a a better experiment in self. self-government than what they'd. experienced under dictatorships and. people always want to get it back to.

where they're comfortable which is being. a dictator yeah I mean absolutely I mean. it's such a brilliant system and I mean. there's this famous I can't remember if. it was Jefferson or somebody who one of. the found fathers that was like we need. a revolution every you know 50 years or. something that's clearly we're overripe. for massive reform and we in 1975 we had. the church committee hearings which is. where we found out about the CIA. assassinations and MK Ultra and the you. know the poisons and all the stuff that. the CIA was doing we're clearly over.

overdue for it I mean it's been 50 years. can you imagine what they're doing now H. we see some of it well this uh the guy. who tried to shoot Trump the guy they. shot on the roof like what was what was. the deal with that and why haven't we. why do we not where's the information. where's the press conference I mean. where's his emails where's the you. where's the social media posts his his. apartment was professionally scrubbed oh. unbelievable you know his home was. professionally scrubbed they didn't even. find silverware in.

it how about this the second guy yeah. the second guy that was recruiting. people to go fight in Ukraine well he. sounds like a fullon loon you know and I. think when you're if I was an. intelligence agent uh and I was trying. to do this kind of stuff I would find. people already out of their [ __ ]. minds right I'd reach out to them I was. going to say being a loon doesn't seem. to be disqualifying to be recruited into. into intelligence well it seems to be a. very valuable asset you know like that's.

what Lee Harvey Oswald was he was a. [ __ ] loon and they probably recruited. him and knew all along that he was the. guy they were going to pin it on right. and this kid is probably a very similar. case the kid that shot Trump and when. you find out that this kid was in a. Blackwater commercial just two years. before like what like who's he in. contact with like what was it blackwat. or Black Rock Oh Black Rock sorry Black. Rock yeah just protecting you from your. future lawsuits I always [ __ ] those up.

it's a black rock commercial I've said. it right and wrong both time like many. times no I mean I it's it's amazing. these things I mean or even the remember. the the trans shooter we didn't get her. diary well it's it was very it was rough. like some of it is leaked and I I guess. it was probably people trying to. discourage hate against trans people but. the reality is the majority of the last. few School shooters have been trans this. is also something that's conveniently. left out of the discussion and that's.

not even the real problem it's not like. trans people are violent the real. problem is psychiatric drugs and that's. the thing that no one wants to make a. connection with how many of these Mass. Shooters are on psychiatric drugs and. the the answer is the majority of them. well they say that but of course I did a. I reported on the guy that attacked uh. Paul Pelosi Nancy Pelosi's husband with. a hammer right and I mean he first of. all I reported out that you know you go. to his house and he was homeless and he. was he was a drug addict and he had.

mental illness and you go to his home in. Berkeley and it was a black lives matter. sign and a rainbow flag and all that um. but the media all reported it that he. was a right-wing Trump supporter like. that was so they were very I didn't hear. that at all oh yeah really that's. hilarious yeah um but but in that case. they didn't they didn't hesitate to. release that that information that he. had been posting about q andon and. criticizing the Democrats and whatnot so. it's clearly ideologically selective of. who which which as salance in political.

information gets released well and then. unfortunately there was a bunch of. conspiracy theories that he was his. lover and he was in the house and but if. you see the guy while he's talking to. the cops and holding the hammer and Paul. Pelosi is trying to hold on to the. Hammer the whole thing is mad like why. is Paul Pelosi still have a drink in his. hand like dude you're in a mortal. struggle with a man who has a [ __ ]. hammer in his hand and you're you're. holding the Hammer with one hand cuz you. want to keep your drink I couldn't. figure out why the cops didn't just just. go grab the hammer in that moment they. sat there and waited and I don't think. they knew exactly what was going on you.

know it was very weird looking it was. very strange like it didn't seem like. Paul Pelosi was he wasn't screaming or. in danger he seemed very calm he was. probably trying to slow this guy down. and relax him and calm him down while. the the cops were arriving and just. didn't ever feel like he was going to. get hit in the head with a hammer which. is what wound up happening it's the. video is so disturbing but if you look. at the man in the video he's clear out. of his [ __ ] mind right you know. there's something wrong with that guy. like you could tell right away like here.

it is oh it's so disturbing it's so. strange why isn't why but I don't quite. understand why the cops don't rush in at. that point right um why is Paul holding. on to his drink why this guy's got a. [ __ ] hammer in his hand yeah the. guy's got two hands on it maybe maybe. maybe there's not as much time that goes. by as I thought that's what like that. seems like they're struggling the cops. should have rushed in then. right that's awful oh my God yeah oh my. God this is so horrible that video is so. horrible when you hear him snoring and. also he's an 80-year-old man okay for an.

80-year-old man to get knocked. unconscious in the head with a hammer. like that he's not going to ever be the. same again yeah you know that is that's. bad for a 20-year-old person to get hit. in the head with a hammer it's awful for. an old guy like that to get koed like. that with a [ __ ] Hammer where he's. snoring in the I mean I think the pro. both sides both left and right often. attribute political motivations to. mentally ill people who if you go. through like if you go through that. guy's uh David top I think was his name.

if you go through if you go through the. stuff that he was posting it's just a. mix of crazy Left Right Stuff he was. clearly mentally ill yeah yeah um and. but clearly mentally ill by the way. people they will adopt whatever ideology. is is the most persuasive like they. don't really they're not objectively. thinking about things he's out of his. [ __ ] mind well we don't blame John. Hinckley Jun we don't blame uh um jod. Foster for for John hinley Junior's. assassination of Reagan you don't go if. it weren't for Jodie Foster he was a jod.

foster fan yeah that's why it's on her. yeah nobody says that yeah so he's a. crazy person I mean look we're in this I. mean look we're in a mental I mean we've. been in our country is just in a bad way. in terms of mental health right we're. just not taking care of it I mean no no. country in I mean we have people we have. a lot of guns and then you have no. proper psychiatric or mental health care. system which is crazy because now you. have tella health and you know you you. we should have a bunch of ways to deal. with it but it's just not who we are I. guess well it's also it's very difficult.

to get people to seek treatment yeah and. you know and then also the treatment. especially in terms of things like ssris. they have to try a bunch of things on. you it's not as simple everybody has a. different level of mental illness right. and so there there's also different. causes of this mental illness and. there's different medications that work. right and they don't really know until. they try it on you and then then we find. out now that the entire theory that it's. based on which is that there is some. sort of chemical imbalance is incorrect.

it's not true so then okay we have to. take this holistic view of the body and. the mind and the health of the. individual based on lifestyle and. choices and community and friends and. all these different things that we don't. want to take into consideration instead. they're just giving people pills and. they give people pills and sometimes it. works and sometimes it doesn't and. sometimes it causes a dissociation. effect these the dissociatives these. weird drugs that people take where they. don't even exactly know what the [ __ ].

they're doing while they're doing it. well and some I mean I think also I mean. yeah 100% And you know we also unlike. Europe and whatever we don't we don't. allow we don't coerce we don't mandate. antis psychotics to people with. schizophrenia or those kinds of. treatments we're much more libertarian. than that right you know I mean I want. this guy particularly the Pelosi guy I. actually my I I can't prove it but my. theory would be that he that there may. not have been an unline mental illness. he had a rough life he did a huge. quantity of drugs you know there's just.

a set of people as we've known from LSD. over the decades there's some people. that take LSD we're now seeing it with. Mar with the high potency marijuana they. never come back that trigger psychosis. yeah and it's probably they already have. a propensity for it the the thought is. that I forget what percentage of the. population I think it's 1% as a tendency. towards schizophrenia or will eventually. become schizophrenic and then you take. that 1% that's a lot of people man oh. for sure one out of 100 you take one out. of 100 you give them a giant dose of. edible marijuana and they're gone well.

this is the this is a uh Mark andrion. who you had on was was making this point. about iasa which is very fashionable. among the elite set and I think the. point that that resonates with me is you. know when I was working in San. Francisco after the Summer of Love 1967. when all the every shows up in San in. San Francisco and they're tripping out. on acid the privileged kids the educated. Elite they go back to Yale and Harvard. at the end of the summer but the. workingclass kids the kids that were not.

as educated you know lower middle class. they hung around in San Francisco and. got addicted to speed and heroin and. that was the early beginnings of the. homelessness crisis was this after the. sweeping uh psychedelics acts of 1970. what made everything schedule one no. this this is back in the Summer of Love. which is 1967 so in even in ' 67 they. were doing speed oh yeah so it was just. remember speed that really starts with. the Beats you know the um the uh. the yeah the Beats right the beatnicks. the beat of the early 60s they're all.

kowak writes his book on speed right. that's probably part of it too right. like I mean it was ubiquitously used. during the the Nazis war was around for. a long time the problem with speed is it. works oh it really works like people. take it and the people I've never [ __ ]. around with any of it but the people. that I know that have tried out aall. they tell you like you feel like you. could do anything and you get things. done and that's attractive to everybody. whether you're a hippie or a capitalist. or anybody you just want to feel more. empowered until you don't until you.

don't yeah especially when it stops. working well and you keep taking more. and more of it and then next you know. you're out of your mind you're losing. your teeth right yeah but it is a it's. an important point because yeah people. take these drugs for a reason they can. be performance-enhancing and there's a. certain group of people I mean you know. Carl Hart you know there's people that. write drug use for grown-ups there's. people of Columbia University Professor. you know there's people that have a very. high internal self-control that are able. to do these drugs. isn't that the real problem is that we. don't develop human beings with a level.

of self-control and a level of. discipline and we don't encourage. discipline we don't encourage and not I. don't mean like disciplining a person I. mean self-discipline we don't encourage. this concept that to be able to force. yourself into doing difficult things you. Empower yourself and strengthen you. strengthen your mind and you resolve and. your your spirit and you can and if you. genuinely gravitate toward positive. results positive results in your social. life positive results in business.

positive results in Artistic Endeavors. if you genuinely gravitate towards those. things like that is probably going to. keep you on the right path in life and. that we should really look at things in. that way like there should be guidelines. like what are you trying to do with your. life like why do you feel bad like what. is what is wrong with your body what. what are you eating how are you sleeping. what kind of people you're surrounded. with what happened to you when you were. a child did someone beat you did you get. sexually molested like what what is what.

what demons are haunting you and what in. fact can be done to help you and even I. mean I would even leave off the L I mean. you can do some of that but I mean I. just we have this beautiful philosophy. called stoicism you know it's amazing it. actually was We Now understand now that. it was part became part of Christianity. for that's why because Christianity the. correction to Judaism of course is. that's all about compassion and care but. when you lose the stoicism part of. Christianity and it all just becomes. compassion the whole society gets s. around compassion that's where you get.

victimhood ideology right you should. absolutely should be teaching because of. course I mean the problem with the focus. on the trauma you know is like you start. to Def everybody suddenly has trauma and. you sort of become obsessed with it as. opposed to like no the whole point of. becoming a full human being is. overcoming adversity it's going through. that that process stoicism is a is a. philosophy that gets you there but it's. been absolutely integrated you know like. when I when I was very right wiish it's. considered rightwing of course it's the.

most emancipatory it's the most. liberating philosophy because it says. it's all about your mentality it's all. about what you do when you get up in the. morning it's your mentality it's your. behaviors it's up to you yeah it's not. up to the government and if you read. meditations by Marcus reias it's very. Progressive not only is it very. Progressive it's very compassionate and. kind and considerate like one of the. things that he talks about is. forgiveness it's a very important. quality that he believes leaves that uh. you know he works on he it's for. everybody yeah it's it's not he's not.

saying you know there's other people. like n which would say hey most people. can't you know do cope with the. seriousness but they're saying everybody. has this internal potential it's a. completely Liber it's what leads to the. human potential movement the self-help. movement you get to like you know I was. looking at you know 1964 they passed the. Civil Rights Act within a few months. Lynden Johnson goes and gives this. famous Harvard uh I'm sorry Howard. University speech where it's like I was. just shocking how quickly it occurs. where it's just basically about all the. problems of the black community and how. we still owe this debt to the black.

community and how the black community. has been victimized the like like here's. this moment where you should you could. be like hey look we've just leveled the. playing field we've got the Civil Rights. Act it's going to end racial integration. that's all behind us now it's up to us. as individuals instead they come out and. they go now we've got to go and and we. pity you and take care of you it's. really toxic discourse it's it's it's. awful and it then has just it's just. expanded to everybody including children.

where like the part of the over involved. mothering of children is to treat. children as though they're victims right. forever it's it's it it's actually and. you see how it really helps the medical. the medicalization of everything much of. what we're the trans medicine is. pathologizing and medicalizing puberty. right we with the same thing with. pregnancy pregnancy often is medicalized. is treated as something's wrong with you. and you know we know the C-sections now.

or we think it doesn't also undermines. the immunity that you get from a vaginal. birth so there's all but it is important. sometimes right sometimes in emergencies. but it's a classic thing where it's just. over small hips and it's just it's just. overdone now right it's done I mean. often you get professional women they're. like I'm scheduling my my c-section. right right because they don't want to. also blow out the hoo-ha yeah the reason. why I brought up trauma before is I. think that's one of the legitimate uses. of psychedelics that I think there it's.

it's pretty provable that there's. positive outcomes particularly mdmn MDMA. uh for soldiers um this is what Maps had. been working on and when you ask people. in the service of their country to go. overseas and kill people and become a. part of a war and get shot at and see. their friends die those people are going. to come back with. unimaginable strain on their psyche.

unimaginable and the one thing. universally that these people have. sought help with that has has helped. them has been psychedelics and it's huge. in the Special Operations Community. discussions of not just IA but ibaan in. particular which is uh absolutely. non-addictive I mean and and apparently. I don't have experience with it but. apparently an unbelievably brutal. introspective experience where you see. your entire life and it sort of laid out. why your behavior patterns exist and the. way they exist and often time they.

combine the Iain experience with another. psychedelic whether it's siloc cybin or. 5 Meo DMT or there's there's a bunch of. different ones that they try and they. all of it has to be done in other. countries a lot of them it's done in. Mexico because it's illegal in the. United States but I have personally. talked to people mult I had Sean Ryan on. the podcast the other day he a personal. experience of how it changed his life I. know multiple solders where it's changed. their life and this is illegal and this. is something that we should be looking.

at every single tool available to help. people stoicism absolutely but soldiers. are the most stoic [ __ ] those. Navy Seals they're the most stoic. [ __ ] get [ __ ] done people you're ever. going to run into in your life and if. they're still struggling maybe these. things are tools I agree with you that. both uh marijuana and uh real. psychedelics hard psychedelics like LSD. I think there's certain people that. shouldn't do anything and I think the. only way we find that out is we run real.

studies and real do real tests and. really try to understand what get some. real science behind the mechanism Behind. these things and what is wrong with. these people that are freaking out and. what is what is the cause of these. psychotic breaks what is the cause of. schizophrenia like especially when. someone doesn't have it and then. develops it so some there's some. biological mechanism there's something. taking place in the body that all the. wires get crossed and now this person. think thinks they're getting Satan's. talking to them so what is that well and. some of it might be age related I Me.

Maybe. you not necessarily with these hyr highd. do drug experiences if people you know. do acid and then they become. schizophrenic like what is that some. people do acid and they figure out the. the double helix strand of the DNA and. they have incredible Visions like. Francis Crick other people they do it. and they're like what the [ __ ] like now. they're gone you know the guy from Pink. Floyd gone there's multip everybody knew. somebody when I was a kid growing up who. did too many drugs and never came back I.

know multiple people that have had. schizophrenic breaks from marijuana yeah. I mean I like I I'm I'm very open to it. I just I worry that we we have a quick. fixed Society still absolutely and so. you know it's like you have PTSD you had. Trauma from from say fighting a foreign. war or you were abused as a child or you. were raped as a woman and I think those. you can get some insight spiritual. Insight exist poal insight to confront. your demons but you're still going to. have to get up every day and confront. those demons that's true but I think.

it's a tool in the tool box and I think. to demonize that tool because some. people have a bad effect on it it's like. to demonize all the things that people. enjoy that you could consider legal. vices like gambling I do not think you. should Outlaw gambling but I think some. people should not [ __ ] gamble I you. know I grew up S well in my 20s my early. 20s in a pool hall and uh you know I I. played pool like eight hours a day. played competitively and I was around a. lot of gamblers a lot of gamblers and it.

is a disease like anything it's a. disease like heroin it's a disease like. alcoholism like these [ __ ]. can't stop those people shouldn't gamble. right like they are gambling addicts and. there's some people that should not do. marijuana and there's some people that. should not drink there's some people. that there's a lot of things they. shouldn't do they shouldn't they don't. have whatever it is that allows you to. pick up a glass of whiskey have a drink. and then the next day boy oh I feel like. [ __ ] I'm going to the gym and then you.

don't drink again for a month you know. there there's some people that realize. like there's certain vices that you can. do in moderation and they're fine couple. glasses of wine at dinner and everyone's. laughing and having a great time there's. nothing wrong with that but there's. certainly some people that cannot handle. that and I think we need to give those. if you want a better stronger Society we. need to develop tools for all people to. follow that will give you a better life. including people that have issues with.

alcohol and gambling and sex and you. know fill in the blanks drugs and what. whatever it is that you're interested in. and that you're you're addicted to. rather yeah and I think there's a bunch. of tools that can be used if used. correctly just like I used to say like. you could you could take a hammer you. could build a house with a hammer or you. could hit yourself in the face if you're. [ __ ] crazy hit poosi or hit poosi it. doesn't mean that we should get rid of. hammers it's like some people have used. psychedelic drugs and had incredible. insight and it's completely changed.

their lives and now they're better for. it and then there's some people that we. can point to that lost their way and. they're gone now and we might not ever. get get them back I mean Howard Stern. talked about it famously he took acid. and he was really [ __ ] up for a long. period of time where you know he really. thought he was going crazy and I think. in that case it's very dangerous there. also there's a dosing thing when you're. taking something that's made in some. [ __ ] hippie bathtub while he's listen. into the Grateful Dead like what are the. odds that you know exactly what the dose. is like what are the odds that this is.

pure what like especially if you're. doing a drug today because if you're. doing a drug today you're rolling the. dce and whether or not you're going to. die of a feny overdose even if you're. taking something that You' think would. be completely benign like know cocaine. now people are doing that cocain is a. big one that's a big one but there's. other stuff that people are taking like. Molly they're taking Molly and it's not. really Molly it's it's laced with. fentanyl and they die they're taking um. street drugs like anti-anxiety. medication that that are forged drugs.

that are actually laced with fenol and. they're dying from that kind of stuff. there's people that you know maybe they. developed an addiction to benzos and. then their doctor says look I'm cutting. you off and then they [ __ ] find it on. the streets and they die from fentanyl. overdoses so I think there's tools that. could be used I I think this Panacea. this idea that it's a one shop fits all. you go do iasa now you're a better. person I don't believe that I think. there's a lot of work to be done I think. there's a lot of work to be done and I. think there's a process as we are.

growing as human beings you start off as. a child where you don't get to pick your. parents and they bring with them a bunch. of baggage because they were raised by. people in the 1940s and they didn't know. what the [ __ ] they were doing and they. were raised by people who literally came. over on boats from Europe to escape. tyranny and chaos and they came over to. America do the most desperate wage work. you could possibly get Dock Workers. Steel Workers Factory workers they they. would do anything they were desperate.

they would take any jobs they would work. on you know railroads and whatever the. [ __ ] they could because they just wanted. to be able to eat right and they raised. your grandparents and then your. grandparents raise your parents and then. you're here going okay what are we doing. and there's some tools stoicism is a. great tool it's a great tool discipline. is a great tool um I think we are. blessed in this time that you can hear. uh a lot of uh speeches from brilliant. people there's a lot of great brilliant. people that have talked about various.

ways that they've overcome their. problems on YouTube and on you know. podcasts and and you can learn a lot and. some of them use different tools some of. them use the tools of meditation and. yoga some of them use the tools of of. fasting and some of them use stoicism. some of them use martial arts some of. them used there's a lot of different. things that people do to make themselves. a better person and I think to discount. one like psychedelics because there's a. bunch of people that abuse it and get. [ __ ] up from it I think it's foolish.

because the profound effects that these. things have should not be minimalized. they shouldn't they shouldn't be. dismissed because they're illegal they. shouldn't be dismissed because of. ignorance and they certainly shouldn't. be dismissed by people who have not. experienced them and have not had those. profound changes that take place in. their perspective on life because. there's a lot of people a lot and I. think it's probably been the going on. through the course of human history it's. probably what caused us to consider. democracy in the first place I mean if.

the the whole have you ever read uh the. have you ever read the um Brian Mar. rescue book The immortality key no I. have it actually I haven't read it. that's in there yeah that's what it's. all about it's all about the ilian. Mysteries and what these people would do. they were they were taking drug laced. wine and they were coming up with. concepts of democracy and they were. trying to figure out society and a more. Equitable and even a peaceful way and. there were you know the philosophies. that they were coming up with to this.

day people read their stuff and it's. profound and these people were all doing. drugs yeah we we can't seem to find you. know we do Freedom really well here in. the United States we can't seem to find. the balance between that and proper care. for people I mean the Netherlands has. potency limits on marijuana we don't. right but the thing about poety limits. it's they don't have a dose limit right. so even if it's potency so let's say. like let's get crazy and say 39% because.

that 39% was like high THC apparently we. looked at up the other day if like like. crazy THC that really [ __ ] people up. can get as high as 39% they don't even. go that high there Dutch government goes. to 15% okay so here's my point three. hits versus one okay so if you have 30%. THC and uh you take one hit oh my God. I'm so high if you have 15% THC you take. two hits but if you're a crazy person. you take 30 bong hits of 15% T THC. you're going to get [ __ ] up you're. going to get [ __ ] up no matter what no.

one's controlling the amount of pot you. smoke Snoop Dog smokes pot all day long. when you hang out with that dude that. dude sat there he rolled like eight. blunts in the course of a three-hour. conversation he just kept rolling blunts. he had a a disco machine the guy's. awesome but I mean whatever tolerance he. has is a Preposterous and it's not that. guy who you know he's in grad school and. he does some bong hits for his friends. and has a schizophrenic break and thinks. that the government is uh put a. recording apparatus in his pencils you.

know like people lose their [ __ ] way. and it's not everybody and I think we we. have to figure out like what is causing. it not eliminate it for the vast. majority of people who don't have that. effect well we're just really bad at it. I mean like I mean I think the bigger. thing is you know you go to Europe and. it's like younger people will drink. alcohol in moderation right but isn't. that because it's always been legal and. I think this is the problem with the. United States and our demonizing of. certain drugs like we celebrate certain. drug look I own a bar you know I'm not.

opposed to alcohol but alcohol is one of. the most destructive drugs that we have. available but yet used socially. responsible it makes conversations more. lively it's a social lubricant everybody. has a great time you know as long as you. do it moderately or the right way but it. it has consequences we don't do we don't. do moderate in the United States but the. but the thing is some people can. moderately drink right we all agree to. that right not an alcoholic I quit I I. quit drinking cuz I had a problem when. did you quit 2018 oh wow September 21st.

it's a good time to quit right before. the [ __ ] hit the. fan um I drink you know a couple I don't. Advocate I don't Advocate prohibition of. alcohol but I would I would Advocate. constraining sales and just putting some. limits on I mean the potency point it's. well taken constraining how because. isn't this like constraining. constraining free speech if you're a. grown adult you want to drink yourself. to death do so if you go over a man's. house and he has a wine seller should he. be arrested cuz why does he have so much. wine what are you doing with all that.

wine if you drank all that wine you. could kill everybody in the neighborhood. no but I mean I think um you know for. example we've restricted it to liquor. stores out of supermarkets we've had uh. don't sales on Sunday but that's only. hard lior hard liquor you can go to a. yes you can go to a supermarket and buy. beer and wine when I was in high school. there was a there's at 18 you could. drink 3.2 beer ah and at at 21 you could. drink a higher potency beer so again. your point is how old are you 53 I'm 57. when I was a kid um they changed the age.

from 18 to 21 before I hit 18 I was like. [ __ ] yeah but it didn't stop you from. drinking maybe that was local is that. local is that Massachusetts only no it. didn't stop me from drinking come on. nobody everybody every kid gets together. in parties and they all figure out a way. to drink but my point is if alcohol if. prohibition had succeeded okay in in the. 1920s and we had illegal alcohol in the. United States no one would know how to. drink it would no one it would be just.

and you would know never know what the. [ __ ] is in the drinking you'd be still. buying drinks people would still buy. drinks there'd be jails filled with. people who sold and bought alcohol and. there'd be a bunch of people that died. because they got poison drinking because. they got drugs from they got their. alcohol from the cartel but so Joe how. far do you go then I mean do you sell. meth INF fentanyl at 7-Eleven but this. is where it's a this is where it gets to. be a really interesting question right. because why not like you shouldn't buy. it but why why should it be the only.

criminal sell it if we absolutely know. that there's a market for it well. because should we allow people if you. listen to Dr Carl Hart Who to me is the. most brilliant person that I've ever met. that does heroin all the. time I don't know if he does it all the. time but he says it's wonderful you know. he's he's done it before and you Al you. also have to take in account that he was. a straight laced clinician he was not uh. a drug user he was a guy that was. studying the effects of these things and. realized that there's a bunch of.

gaslighting as to what their actual. effects of the pure versions of these. things are and that this concept that. they are unbelievably addictive and you. can't stop yourself he thinks is false. he's smarter and more educated about. that subject than I am well I I mean but. look the more available it is the more. people use the more people use the more. addiction you get but can you see that. the same concept can used to this same. narrative can be used to control Free. Speech well Free Speech can you see it.

well in the sense that there is limits. to free speech we don't allow free. speech for immediate incitement to. violence fraud defamation we have a high. bar for defamation so it is but could. you see how you could say the problem in. our society is that a bunch of people. are saying things that are incorrect and. the only way to stop that is to censor. them the problem in society is that some. people are drinking too much the way to. stop that is to moderate their drinking. and control them the problem with people. that are addicted to drugs is we need to. make drugs illegal so no one can become.

addicted to drugs but that it doesn't. work that way because humans don't work. that way and humans don't like other. humans telling them what to do if it was. just you me and Jamie on an island and I. decide that coconuts are illegal and I'm. going to put you in a cage that I. created out of bamboo if you if you. drink coconut milk because I think. Coconut's bad for you and everybody else. is saying I [ __ ] love coconut this. guy's an [ __ ] well that doesn't make. any sense right like because I'm a grown. adult and I'm telling another grown. adult to stop doing something that's how. I feel about almost everything that. doesn't hurt other people I know but.

we're looking at 12,000 deaths from. illicit drugs last year as opposed to. most of them are opioid overdoses op. overdoses accidentally yeah because. because drugs are illegal well no it's. not because drugs are illegal it's. because they became more available right. but because those drugs look it all. started with the Sackler family right it. all started with oxycodone and all that. stuff but the reality is that there's a. bunch of people that are addicted to. these drugs and the way they're getting. them is by getting drugs that are.

tainted with feny and that's a primary. cause for the people that are overdosing. did you say like 70 plus perc 75% is. fent so that's because of the illegal. drug Market if listen it is because if. just those opiates pure opiates were. available you could make an argument. that those 75% would still be alive if. they died from fentanyl overdose no they. would they would also be dying of opio. overdose are you sure well I mean look. here here let me give you example but. there's a reason why they specify fenel.

because it's so much more deadly but. Europe but Joe Europe does not have this. drug death epidemic well they also don't. have an opiod crisis because they didn't. they didn't prescribe it the way we did. well right so they made opioids too much. opioids were too available then hero was. too available and now fentanyl is too. available solution is not to make it. more available but it wasn't available. under it was available under false. pretenses first of all they lied about. being addictive of course and there's a. lot of documentation of this not only. did they lie they testified about it so.

they knew it was addictive and then. there was also never an opioid that was. prescribed as an everyday thing because. pain is something that you shouldn't. have to live with that's that's with the. when I when I asked the Dutch why don't. you have an opioid at De they didn't say. because we don't have greedy. pharmaceutical companies they said. because the doctor when you go to the. doctor the doctor doesn't say you have. some pain and this is the Dutch are. famous for this you have some pain. you'll have some pain take some Advil if. you want but you're still going to have. pain cuz you just had back surgery or. whatever so some of it is the culture of.

inl but it's also they don't have a. financial incentive to push this. medication because they have socialized. medicine 100% this is part of the. problem that we have in this country and. we accept all sorts of socialized things. like the fire department that's that's. basically a socialist idea we're all. going to contribute it's all equal the. fire people work for everybody and they. put out fires cuz we all need firemen. right and sort of with Public Schools. very similar but when it comes to. Medicine we're very wary about that but.

the problem is then people profit off of. how much they can sell you and when you. have some monsters like the sacker. family and what the [ __ ] they did that's. how you create this opor crisis let's. imagine that wasn't the case so let's. imagine this sweeping act in 1970 does. not take place and all of these. psychedelics whether it's. cocin uh including marijuana which is. made illegal because of pro prohibition. prohibition went off and then they. started you know they went after. marijuana that was a new thing and you. know William Randol Hurst and Harry.

anslinger it's a long story but it was. really more about hemp as a commodity. than it was actually about the drug. that's why they even called it marijuana. marijuana was a a name for a slang name. for wild Mexican tobacco didn't have. anything to do with cannabis so when. they passed that they made everything. illegal all these things illegal and so. then when the government comes along and. takes this. incredibly dangerous and addictive. substance like oxycodone and says let's.

say you guys want to sell it we'll make. we'll make sure the guys that are. deciding whether or not you could sell. it get a cushy job in the pharmaceutical. drug companies afterwards will hook you. up if you hook us up and then EV that's. what created the OPI crisis not opioids. being. illegal right or not not being legal. rather not being available became more. available but but they became you're. describing ways they became more. available it was just heroin if it was.

just heroin no one was doing heroin when. I was a kid well they they weren't doing. as much very rarely but if but but now. everyone knows someone who knows someone. who's died of oxycodone or oxycoton or. at least is addicted to it but so the. problem is you're so in other words you. want these drugs to be less available. not more available but who's to decide. that's the problem and when you decide. Society but when you well certainly for. people of a certain age we all agree to. that like you shouldn't be able to do. that when you're you know 16 years old.

it's crazy but if you're a 35-year-old. man who's to tell you that you shouldn't. be able to try heroin I mean you have to. make a decision as a society because I. mean look so Carl is right that most. people that do opioids or heroin don't. become addicted the people that do. become addicted most of them are able to. quit on their own so only a small. percentage of people become so addicted. that they die from it but that's 100 but. that's 112,000 deaths a year so are we. going to just condemn the most. vulnerable people and there was the. 112,000 people that died of drugs and.

drug poisonings and Drug overdoses last. year are by definition the most. vulnerable to those drugs are we just. going to sacrifice 112,000 people from. drugs so Carl Hart can get high on. heroin I don't think for me that's not a. good calculation I think that's the. argument that's not a fair calculation I. don't think that's the argument but then. how what then what's the alternative. well first of all we've already. established that 75% of those people are. dying because it's illegal because it's. no because it's fenel well but heroin is. illegal too Joe right but they're not. taking heroin if they think they're.

taking heroin and they're getting fentin. they're getting poisoned because it's. illegal yeah but the number here what. I'll say to it's a little bit more. complicated that there was 20,000 deaths. in the year 2000 112,000 deaths last. year it was going up before fentanyl so. yes it's hard to overdose onyone for. sure kills people let's let's be clear. about that I'm not saying it's harmless. but it's not heroin it's different. right the the the curve goes up when. they start prescribing it the curve goes. up when they start giving people. prescription pills and tell telling them.

they need it after an accident if you. just had heroin available do you think. without recommendation people would. gravitate towards heroin people. generally learn this is one of the. reasons why you learn from other. people's failures like there's not a lot. of people that are crack Advocates. because crack didn't really work out. good for [ __ ] anybody no one's out. there telling people to take crack but. if the government came out with some. sort of or not the government a. pharmaceutical Drug Company came around. and the FDA approved it and it was some. sort of a medication that gave you the. exact same effects as crack but they.

told you this is a great drug for people. to overcome timidity timidity is a real. problem in our culture if we're going to. compete with China pathologize timidity. for I'm not kidding I'm not kidding like. you could do that because that's. essentially what they did with pain and. that's how they snuck in heroin but it. wasn't heroin it was synthetic but using. that synthetic heroin and using it so. ubiquitously and prescribing it is what. caused that epidemic you tricked people. into getting Addicted by telling people. it wasn't addictive and then telling. people they need it because of pain and. then of course your whole body's in.

agony because it's addicted to the stuff. and when you get off of it or you try to. get off of it you're in terrible. terrible pain so this the the key is. just stay on it that's the trick so if. we didn't have that happen and in 1970. they didn't pass this act that told. people that things like ibag gain that. cure people of addictions actually re. rewire the mind in some substantial way. that stops all those addictive Pathways. and and stops people from wanting to. engage in these self-destructive.

behaviors because it makes you so aware. of why you're doing it in the first. place we made all of those illegal at. the same time if that hadn't been done. we would have a much greater if they. hadn't been done and if all of these. compounds had been pursued under the the. name of real science and we we actually. studied them openly and you had the. brightest and most Brilliant Minds. running tests and studies and trying to. figure out what's going on and what's. good what's not good and what's the. right way to take it what's the wrong. way to take it you wouldn't have the. influence of the cartel because you.

wouldn't have this. insane I mean who knows what the actual. numbers are but it's hundreds of. billions of dollars that are being. earned south of our border by these. ruthless murderous gangs who control the. drug trade because it's illegal in the. country that has the most demand for it. yeah although let me let me respond to I. want to respond to that last part but um. remember Obama comes in and he restricts. opioid prescriptions around 20 I think. it was like 2009 2010 right so so people.

are now going into fenel directly or. from. marijuana they're going Direct in yeah. they they [ __ ] everybody because they. got them addicted then they pulled the. rug out from under yeah so I mean I'm. not denying any of like yeah I mean. ultimately kids need to be raised right. you need more self-control you need more. delayed gratification 100% I also. support marijuana decriminalization I. mean drugs have two Dimensions right. there's one dimension which is the. inherent toxicity of the drug and the. other dimension is how you use it. marijuana nobody's ever overdosed from.

it nobody ever dies you do get psychosis. but I mean really compared to other. drugs marijuana is is fairly low. toxicity alcohol you know actually when. you read the the history of alcohol. prohibition it did actually have health. benefits alcohol prohibition because. people drank less but I agree I agree I. mean I think. alcohol like I think it should be legal. I like I like the Dutch model I like the. restrictions because I think it does it. doesn't prevent people from getting it. but it just it is constantly saying hey.

be careful with this right but meth. heroin fentanyl I think absolutely. illegal do what they do in Holland I. mean they they chase people down they. chase cocaine do they is there no. cocaine in Holland of course there's. cocaine there is there heroin sure but. they chase it makes it more expensive. because it's less available now you get. to you get to kind of go well okay so. then you get to we have a real world. case which is marijuana um we've. legalized marijuana in California and. many other states the the criminal.

element controlling the marijuana growth. and Industry in California is larger and. more more violent and more dangerous. than it was before we decriminalized it. do you know why though well I mean I. think it's mostly because the market for. black the the black market for marijuana. is still much larger than the market for. legal in other words you can buy. marijuana for much cheaper you know. informally through your dealers on the. street than you can if you go into the. store and some of that's I will grant. you that it's because the California you. can imagine when California decides to.

make marijuana legal it it's going to. add a huge amount of tax and it to. require a set of cost so that legal. marijuana is just much more expensive. that's part of the issue yeah but the. the issue is a little bit deeper my. friend John Norris wrote a book about. this it's called The Hidden War and the. what happened was he was a game warden. so he was a guy that would check fishing. licenses and stuff like that in. California in California and they found. out that cartels were growing and. National Forest yes so because they made. marijuana legal growing it illegally was. just a misdemeanor so because of that.

90% of all the marijuana that's grown to. all the places where it's illegal all. the states that it's illegal comes out. of California right and it it is made by. the cartel so it's the same sort of a. situation there even though it's legal. in California it's there's an illegal. market and this is the safest place to. grow it because it's just become a. misdemeanor and we are also uh very. unique country and we have these wide. swats of land that are public that. people could just go out on and just go.

go for a walk in the woods there's no. restriction it's ours it's yours and so. they go out there and they set up shop. and they use unbelievably toxic poison. uh pesticides and herbicides and that. [ __ ] gets in your illegal marijuana it's. the same thing it's because it's illegal. that is causing all the violence it's. not necessarily because it's being taxed. and because there's a black market the. black market is because it's illegal in. other states it's not because people. don't want to pay taxes on weed weed is. so cheap not the not the legal weed yes.

it is it's so cheap it's so cheap it's. more expensive than the illegal weed. though for sure but it's still so cheap. yeah in terms of the efficacy what think. about how much it cost to go drinking. like you go to a bar with your friends. it's like at the end of the night you're. buying rounds for people it's hundreds. of dollars right hundreds of dollars of. weed will put you on Pluto you will be. on [ __ ] Pluto if you go to one of those. places in La that has like a store where. they're just like an Apple Store you go. and buy weed for five bucks you could be.

[ __ ] up for a week oh no I get it. compared to alcohol it's cheap it's. cheap in terms of its effect even if. you're paying 39% taxes which they were. I think they were doing in Colorado with. which is the first state to make it. legally like fine it's still cheap it's. not that expensive I don't think it's. driving the black market to undercut. people I think that's [ __ ] I think. what's going on is the black market. exists because it's illegal in other. states and you develop these enormous. criminal organizations and they. infiltrate legal stores in California.

and they do a lot of shady [ __ ] in. California too but they exist because. it's illegal so you think if if. marijuana were legal and across the. whole United States there would be no. black market there would be but it won't. be a. powerful unit like the cartel in Mexico. like the cartel in Mexico is like a a. government it's like an enormous. terrifying government of people people. that are profiting off of drugs because. drugs are illegal in the United States. if everything was legal here and you. could grow it yourself marijuana I'm.

with you on marijuana not cocaine not. heroin start off with marijuana let's. just start off with marijuana if. marijuana was legal in this country and. you could grow it yourself it's so cheap. to grow it's literally a weed right it. grows like it's easy it wouldn't be hard. for people like a guy on the Block grows. it and and sells it and if it was just. legal to do that instead of the. government getting involved then you'd. have no black market drugs it should. just be a plant like a [ __ ] tomato.

where you could grow tomatoes and sell. tomatoes and you can go to the farmers. market look at my tomatoes it should be. like that it's is is um I mean I think. that's where it's headed I mean my. understanding is that that's where. Florida is headed is that where Texas is. where's Texas Texas it's illegal but. it's decriminalized in the city of. Austin and then uh the Attorney General. Ken Paxton apparently doesn't like that. and he wants that to stop I think most. of the people that U Want marijuana to. be legal don't necessarily use it and. don't necessarily really understand what. it does and there's this idea that it.

makes you lazy which is my favorite like. I know some of the most motivated people. ever and they smoke weed all the time I. think it makes you more compassionate I. think it makes you more creative more. considerate it makes you think about. things in a different light Carl Sean. was a Famous Cannabis user and he has a. very famous quote about Canabis cannabis. about there's states of mind that are. achievable on can cannabis that he. doesn't think are achievable any other. way he was an inveterate cannabis user. so was Terence McKenna and what's your. view of age limits then I think it.

should be just like alcohol 21 yeah and. I think you're your it would be smart. for parents to explain to kids that. there are some drugs that are really. [ __ ] dangerous and don't just say all. drugs are bad just let them know and if. you have a history of mental illness in. your family which many people do mental. illness seems to be something that's. inherited that some people have a. tendency toward W certain mental States. there's a lot of arguments about that. I'm I'm not the one to say yes or no but. maybe you should not do these things if.

your family has a tendency towards. schizophrenia if you've had your own. mental struggles if you've had moments. where I know people that have had. schizophrenic breaks where they've come. back I have a couple of friends that. like had real problems and now they're. normal again and not with medication. they just sorted it out and they figured. it out oh for sure and they came back so. I mean we're dealing with the I mean I. think it's always so important to. remember that you're when you're with. the people people that have the worst. problems are definitely a small minority. but the question is how many people are. we willing to sacrifice how many people. do we sacrifice every year because.

alcohol how many people do we sacrifice. every year because of sugar do you know. that heart disease is one of the biggest. killers of human beings in this country. and how much heart disease is. preventable because of lifestyle and. diet a large percentage so should we say. why is cake legal because you can handle. cake Michael that doesn't make any sense. Michael we've lost 5 million people this. year because of cake and you're saying. that cake should be legal cuz you like. cake that's crazy so you can get all. [ __ ] up on cake these poor little. diabetic kids you don't care about these.

diabetic kids no I mean you can make the. argument for anything I would just say. you can make the argument for that's my. point is that freedom is the most. important thing yeah but okay but what. about fentanyl then you're want toen is. essentially poison fentanyl the ld50 of. fentanyl is so small you could barely. see it you know that right have you ever. seen what the a lethal dose of fensel. looks like in comparison to a penny yeah. I mean I've interviewed many many people. smoking fentanyl on the streets. unbelievably terrifying so that is a. poison and that is something that was.

invented to try to make a more potent. opiate I I don't think it's a miracle. drug for people in hospitals I mean it's. a miracle drug as a as a pain meded I. mean for women giving birth for back. surgery it's a miracle as [ __ ] but it. but is an opioid right so no I mean I. saw my my mother was giv fentanyl for. her back surgery was wonderful sure but. why wouldn't uh morphine work why. wouldn't something like that okay so. here's another so this is so I uh but. something that we know that people can. tolerate right well look in Vancouver.

they had this experiment where they said. we're going to go give um uh Hydro. Hydromorphone um uh which is a an opioid. as a harm reduction to people that use. Fentanyl and heroin and it's been a. total nightmare because it gets diverted. and people sell it in order to buy. fentanyl kids end up with it I mean I. think you have to remember every time. you add add drugs to the drug Supply you. add you you increase supplies you just. said the same thing that's alcohol okay.

kids buy alcohol from a cousin who's. willing to buy it for you because. alcohol is legal kids can get alcohol. it's the same thing but it's crime what. you're what you're talking about is. crime so you're talking about preventing. crime right because that's all it is. it's illegal to do with what you're. saying we we also want to prevent. addiction right but it's illegal to do. that with morphine there's laws already. that prevent you from doing that if you. want to follow La so it's not it's it's. people that are willing to break the law. and do this if there's a reasonable law. that gets put forth in terms of age of.

use age of discretion and it pro. honestly I mean it's no one's going to. buy it but it probably should be 25. right especially for males right that's. when the frontal lobe fully forms and. you know like your decision- making is. all [ __ ] up and if you're hitting the. bong every day while your brain is. forming and uh this frontal lobe is. under development of course it's have an. effect on it it's going to have an. effect on if if you're on Prozac it's. going to have an effect on if you're. drinking every day yeah there's a lot of. substances in this country that uh can.

do you wrong and food is one of them and. I don't think that we should be telling. people what they can and can't do I. think we should be explaining what you. should and shouldn't do and I think. that's the best way to handle this with. food I would say the tobacco model is. wonderful I mean we did an amazing job. with reducing tobacco use in the United. States just through I mean there was. some red reduction in availability. reduction in advertising and then. moralizing against it the culture. changed it's not cool anymore to smoke. cigarettes at least well it's a. revealing of the actual statistics and.

the fact that it's it does cause cancer. and that it is addictive and all things. that they tried to fight against it was. really money that kept it yeah there. wasn't a giant problem like this you. know back in like the 1800s well and. don't allow open air drug dealing right. right and Chase I mean Holland there's a. small group of people that actually the. government actually they they give. heroin too it's like somewhere between. 50 and 100 people it's not very many and. then they're chasing dealers they don't. allow open air drug dealing they're. arrest they're they're stopping cocaine.

from coming in yeah I think that um yeah. look it's a nuanced problem which is why. we're spending so much time a nuanced. problem but I think I think we have to. be very careful about limiting people's. freedom and I I think there's a bunch of. choices that people make that are very. bad that you should be able to make I. don't think you should make them I don't. think you should you know bet your. [ __ ] house on a roulette roll but you. can do that. it's you know it's funny um the other. thing that we're going to come to in the. book is we're looking at assisted. suicides yeah oh my God Canada is.

[ __ ] insane well right so so in other. words should you be free to commit. suicide I think you should that's. different from having a government. program right to assist it because you. would say well the you it always starts. to they go we're not going to promote it. but in fact the people that are involved. in assisting suicide are basically. selling it there's this amazing BBC clip. of this woman uh this doctor that's been. assisting people with their suicide and. she's it's impossible to listen to her. and not feel like she's promoting it so. she benefits from it which is nuts it's.

nuts to have people benefit financially. from people deciding to kill themselves. they're telling people that have long. Co come on in oh you got PT oh come on. in I mean what are the the numberers of. people that they helped kill themselves. last year are [ __ ] terrifying I think. it's like 13,000 people yeah we looked. at I I I don't know the exact number but. we looked it up recently and it's been. increasing significantly and it's also. yeah one of the changes as you mentioned. was it's now from uh people that have um.

life-ending illnesses yeah life-ending. illnesses to people with psychiatric. disorders right or people with just. depression simple depression or there. was a one I just read a case of a woman. I didn't check to see if it's true but. I'm assuming a young woman who uh was. sexually assaulted and depressed and I. think it was in the. Netherlands um and assisted suicide. there well yeah I mean it's a funny it's. a funny country Netherlands because on. the one hand they also did the gender. they did the gender medicine there they. did the they did the drug.

decriminalization but they're also very. strict so they've they've achieved a. balance in the Netherlands I don't think. we're going to be able to do here. between but they have a GI problem with. like Moroccan crime gangs and and drug. sales and gun sales and there's a lot of. I mean compared to who compared to San. Francisco and Oakland or I don't know. I'm not the guy but my friend who was. from Holland told me it's a a giant you. know Holland has a um a giant history of. kickboxing some of the greatest. kickboxers of all time came from Holland.

the Legends the leg amazing country and. they're tall right so yeah well some of. them are the the best one ever was small. guy named rone Deckers but he was so. ferocious he went over to Thailand and. [ __ ] everybody up and he became a. legend like it's it's a crazy country in. that regard that it's a it's not a very. big country but the people are very big. and robust and they're they're like you. know manly men and they're very blunt. and they're very direct they cut to the. point they're um they're some of my. favorite people in the world because I.

think they do they are able to get that. balance between freedom and care and. between I mean but they're also raising. their kids different they're not codling. in the way that we coddle our kids the. social media epidemic that we're I mean. we just every we just do everything. social media epidemic over there it's. they do but it's just not as bad just. like you would expect yeah um yeah I. don't I don't know what the solution to. all these things that are very complex. and I I see your perspective I really do. but I think unfortunately you could P. you could apply that perspective to.

almost everything that people do that's. dangerous and tell people they can't. make these choices anymore because we're. going to lose people and uh I think you. really want to be honest about that one. the biggest one is food and no one wants. to tell people you can't eat cookies but. the the reality is that will [ __ ]. kill you and you know what should we do. about that what should we do should we. educate people and tell people about the. benefits of healthy diets and exercise. yes yes I think we should do that with.

all the above I think we should do that. with all the above yeah I think we. should do that with marijuana I think we. should do that with psilocybin I think. we should also take into account the. people like these veterans like Sean. Ryan that I was telling you that have. had these experiences from psychedelics. that have changed their life in a huge. way and for these people that sort of. dismiss that and poo poo that and say oh. Carl Hart just wants to get [ __ ] up I. don't think that's really fair and I. think you have to apply the same ideas. of Freedom where we have it with speech.

to especially Behavior like drug use. where it's not affecting anyone but. yourself and we already have laws that. you're not allowed to drive in toxicated. and if someone does something and. commits a crime while they're. intoxicated that's also illegal we have. laws that prevent bad behavior and that. bad behav those laws it's already. criminalized so I think the real problem. is not these things the the real problem. is like all things that people get to. try out there's a lot of people that are.

going to [ __ ] up with everything I and I. would feel better I mean I I don't think. Carl I read his book and I interviewed. him I don't think he's honest about the. tradeoffs I think he sells it as though. it's just an injustice that we don't. have legalized drugs and then dismisses. this very wellestablished reality that. greater drug availability results in. more addiction more problem I I don't. think you could Shu off the tradeoffs. just like you can't shuck off the. alcohol deaths I think there's something. like 90,000 people every year die from. alcohol yeah but not the only difference.

well yeah but the difference is like. when you die on fentanyl you smoke it. and you're dead they're counting as. those alcohol deaths it's over it's a. longer people that are dying you could. have a couple of drinks and you're. definitely not going to die most likely. but I think uh what Carl Hart is kind of. saying from his own perspective is that. he had a very different opinion of what. they did and the dangers of them before. he started researching them and then. once he became a clinical researcher. then he realized like oh this is not and.

then he started experimenting with them. I mean literally he's like I mean he's. he's literally a world expert in drugs. and so I mean he's just in again it's. like after the summer of love the kids. that are like High I mean he's a PhD. he's at Columbia he's one of the best. universities in the world he's obviously. somebody that has a huge amount of. self-discipline and able to delay. gratification and I mean in his book he. talks about actually becoming addicted. to opioids and and having to kick and. going through withdrawals I mean that's. a very disciplined person he has.

something to live for the other one of. the most amazing groups there's two. famous studies the Vietnam veterans who. were addicted to heroin they come back. to the United States they weren't around. heroin anymore they went on with their. lives they kicked their heroin and they. were fine the other group is doctors. doctors who become addicted you know. because of course they're it's available. um yeah big problem yeah but they're um. they're recidivism rate or their uh. their relapse rate is extremely low why. because they're [ __ ] smart well. they're smart and they're discipline and.

if they don't quit they're going to lose. their medical license and they're going. to stop making you know mid six figures. every year they're also they something. to L if you're a doctor that's a very. difficult process to become a doctor. like almost every doctor you meet is an. exceptional person in some way yeah in. San Francisco I tell the story about. these I have these two addicts telling. the story about how they recovered one. of them was why one of them is black the. black guy Jabari is arrested multiple. times from in from you know when he. starts his criminal career and as a.

teenager all the way into his 40s and. they keep letting him off because. they're because they're because they're. racist actually and they're saying oh. you know you're a victim and whatever um. basically is getting to a place of in. just very serious addiction finally gets. arrested in a way so that he can get. into recovery the white guy gets. arrested once and because they're not. lenient on him he ends up getting into. recovery right away so I think that I. think back to I think if we can find.

some common ground it would be that you. would enforce some basic laws so that if. you're out there on the streets dealing. drugs or you're sleeping in a tent on. the sidewalk after you've been told. multiple times or the EMT has to come. out and revive you 12 time 20 times from. your fentel I mean how many times do. just as even if you don't care about the. guy how many times do taxpayers want to. pay to to send the fire trucks out I. mean it's like a often a fire truck and. an ambulance go out to revive a dude who.

who often has already been revived I. mean the one one time I saw was with the. times of London reporter guy overdoses. in front of us they get him Naran the. fir truck still has to come the. ambulance still has to come I mean how. many thousands of dollars of of Staff. time and medical time is that to revive. that guy instead you know arrest him you. know or get him in the system and then. if you do it again then you got to. choose between rehab and jail I think. that's how you end up dealing with it so. Carl Hart yeah I mean I don't want to.

send the police into arresting Carl Hart. but you were saying that he downplays. the negatives yeah dismisses the. negatives I mean if you go the route. that he's recommending which is that all. of these drugs be legally available. you're going to increase use you're. going to increase availability you're. going to increase addiction yeah we've. had this conversation a bunch of times. about what do you just pull the Band-Aid. off and allow that to take place. and so if you don't you keep empowering. the cartel so your your vision is to. keep P pumping money billions and. billions of dollars every year into the.

Cel there's no other way you're not. going to stop there's no magic wand that. you have that's going to stop addiction. there's no magic wand you going to have. that's going to stop the market for. illegal drugs in the United States but I. think we can reduce it I think we can. reduce it significant well first of all. shut down the open air drug markets um. don't have this thing of repeated uh uh. if you if you overdose and the system. has to come out to O to to to um reverse. the overdose uh next time they come out. it should be a choice of jail or rehab.

like that's it you got to go to rehab or. you go to jail that was the system we. had and California's about to reform the. law that changed that you know we had. Prop 47 which made shoplifting up to. $950 legal or decriminalized I should. say same thing with three G of hard. drugs Californians are going to vote in. November to reverse that Proposition 36. you know it's think they're going to. vote for that yeah it's way ahead yeah. it's over well over 50% that would be.

nice that they make stealing illegal. again exactly re criminalize crime how. many time but then you're going to have. to rehire cops and you're going to have. to refund the police well yeah I mean. you definitely need more police I mean. it honestly it was just we had drug. courts it was imperfect but you'd go to. the courts and you'd be like look you. need to get into rehab and you're just. trying you're going to have some amount. of relapse but this thing of 12 20 times. of also incentivizing people like in. Seattle incentivizing people paying. people that happens in San Francisco too.

apparently just paying people to stay on. the streets yes giving them money giving. them food all I have to do is sleep in. that tent okay fine people just [ __ ]. on the streets no one's cleaning it up. and when xiin ping came to town. everything was hosed down everybody was. moved out they put fences up where. people couldn't Camp there anymore it. was wild bad and Gavin Newsome's. response that when you're friends come. over you clean your house up like why. about just clean your house you [ __ ]. psycho what are you a hoarder like San. Francisco is like a hoarder's house but.

way worse it's like the the the idea. behind it of it being compassionate is. like there should have been a course. correction when you realize the results. of that like there's nothing. compassionate about letting people shoot. up in the streets and have your your. your whole block filled with needles and. and human poop and that the whole. thing's nonsense like this is this is. not good for anybody. it's bad for the health of the people. that are doing it and certainly the. health of the people that are. encountering it he's he's he's opposed. to this ballot initiative of course he.

is you know I mean it's insane he's like. the worst he's the worst he's both a. terrible terrible politician and he's a. terrible bureaucrat his latest thing on. homelessness is he's like well this time. I'm going to give out the money to the. counties and they're going to give me a. plan it's like you've been doing that. for you know your entire time as. Governor lieutenant governor I'm sure. you've seen the list of the people that. work on the homeless in California and. the salaries they get oh yeah of course. CRA that's that's what we mean by. pathocracy yeah it's a sick bureaucracy.

that creates sickness yeah I'm not. saying it's deliberate it's unconscious. but it's it's Monken syndrome by proxy. it's creating making your child or. making your community sick so that you. can treat them and there's very few. countries that have figured a way out of. that once that already takes. place it's very hard once you lose the. Norms you know know once you I just this. is an amazing book called weird about. Western industrialized educated. societies and they just talk about these.

these core values of you know working. hard delaying. gratification um you know stable. relationships. education religion and religion I think. that's the one that people don't want to. say especially people that fancy. themselves intelligent I think a big. part of our problem is we have. lost all sense of religious virtue and. values as a as a culture and we've. rejected them under the guise of you. being too intelligent for religion yeah. and the results of that is like if you.

just look at the results in terms of the. way people feel about life if you really. do believe in God you will feel about. life like that is a gift and is a. miracle and you will live a more. righteous and just life it will benefit. you it actually will and I don't know if. it's true but I know that if you believe. it's true and Jordan talks about this. but him whether or not he won't say. whether or not he believes in God but if. you act as if God is real right you'll. have a much better life and that's a. fact and people know that they know when.

you meet like a really good Christian. person who does charitable things and. this wonderful lovely person who. actually lives by the Bible not a. hypocrite you're like wow what a cool. guy like I really love that guy he's. awesome like because it's a great value. it's a great it's a great virtuous way. to live your life and we've rejected. that because we're too smart for it and. in the absence in the void of this this. thing that I think we all need you fill. it with this new religion whether it's. wokeism or what whatever it is fill in.

the blank the climate whatever it is you. find a thing I think that happened. during Co I think it became a religion. for a lot of people oh yeah I mean it's. funny my my so on both free speech and. on homelessness my best allies are. Christians they literally just have. shown up they there's all these people. that are secular that are like yeah. we're with you but they don't actually. do the work like the Salvation Army when. I did a fentel protest in in Los Angeles. the Salvation Army shows up and they're. effective on the Free Speech issues in. Europe there's a group called Alliance. defending Freedom they show up they're. so reliable my best supporter of our.

nonprofit for years just a Christian he. just gives us support he's I trust you. go do it I mean when I look at my. grandfather who was a farmer in Indiana. lived to 101 after he died I interviewed. his neighbors and I was like what like. why why does and they were like oh yeah. that neighbor over there is 98 and that. neighbor's 97 and I was like why does. everybody live so long around here and. they just go right living and I was like. well what's right living and they were. like didn't smoke didn't drink you know.

um ate right I mean they ate great food. obviously they're on the farm but also. is he had no choices to make I mean. there was there's this really. interesting book by uh Leah Greenfield. that argues that the increase of mental. illness in Western countries of the last. hundred years is just this incredible. pressure on the individual to make all. these choices you know like my. grandfather was like there weren't that. many young women to choose from to marry. he didn't choose his religion I mean.

it's like absurd like we choose we tell. our kids it's like can you imagine you. can believe whatever you want want to. become Jewish you can become Jewish you. want be Christian yeah ex yeah and then. you go I want to be change my gender I. mean the levels of choices that people. have it's it's overwhelming as opposed. to like he basically didn't choose any. of the major things in his life he. didn't choose any of them he didn't. choose his occupation he barely chose. his I mean he didn't have that many. women to choose from certainly didn't. choose his religion right but are we. arguing that that's a good thing well no. I mean because of course you and I would.

hate that we would we're we we're. libertarian like we want we love our. choices I mean because you were saying. it's not just that there's two things. that are going on first people just the. church didn't explain the world very. well like suddenly you have these. scientists that are like well actually. the Earth revolves around the Sun guys. and and you know it looks like and then. there's a story about Evolution which. may not be correct but nonetheless. the scientists had a much better story. of reality than the church did and then. the other thing is that just as you get. wealthier you just have more money.

there's more choices there's more things. to do and you're sort of like why am I. going to go along with what some priest. tells me to do well especially when your. the literal translations right when. people literally translate ancient. religious texts things get weird you. know you're you're dealing with a story. told down by oral tradition for a. thousand years someone WR it on animal. skins they eventually you know it's too. it gets weird oh yeah it's weird so but. to dismiss all the ideas behind it I.

think is foolish I mean the Europeans. somehow I mean the Dutch for example. they're very secular I mean these EUR. these Western European societies um. there far less belief in God than in the. United States and yet somehow you know. they keep raising their kids to be more. disciplined than we're raising our kids. they don't have as they have you know of. course cultural philosophy there's. there's like an inner I I do think it's. a stoicism in the sense that it's it's. you know it's like when I would my my. parents it's funny because Jonathan you. know Jonathan height at one point he was. asked I think by um I can't remember who.

someone asked him like who's better. parents left Wingers or right- Wingers. and he was like right- Wingers yeah um. even though he's a pretty liberal guy I. mean my parents who were very my mom and. dad were very left but they raised me. more conservative and the way they would. do it is they'd be like you need' be. like oh well that's not fair and they'd. be like well life's not fair right. that's like a conservative view life is. not fair right. um and then you'd be like well why don't. you can you will you get me some food. they would teach you they would teach us. how to like push a chair next to the. kitchen counter to climb up and get your.

make your own food they had a philosophy. that was if the kid can do it the kid. should do it as opposed to now it's like. I think there's just these over involved. parents that are like oh I want to I. want to take care of you and so the kids. end up getting coddled somehow for. whatever reason in Europe those core. values of. self-reliance you know it gets when you. when I interviewed like the progressive. homeless service providers in the United. States they in San Francisco and other. places they would say things like oh. that's the whole buy your bootstraps.

philosophy which is just so oppressive. it's like no actually it's completely. liberating to be told that you have the. power to do these things I mean that's. basically what Anthony Tony Robbins is. telling people all the time right is. that you have the inner resources the. inner power sure so that's got to be I. don't know how we restore it I mean. there's the the fear of course is that. once that stuff's gone it's gone the. fear is once you tell the person it's. not their fault their whole life is.

because somebody else did them wrong. absolutely or that there's some. injustice in the system some systematic. oppression that's keeping them from. succeeding but the reality also is that. some people are born in terrible. circumstances and you know and then. there's no beginning finish there's no. starting line that's the same but this. thing where this thing where like you. know after the George Floyd where it's. like the Obamas are and and affluent you. know black families are are saying oh. yeah I'm worried about my kids what are. you telling your kids that they're like.

that they're going to be victims of the. society that police are all racists I. mean these messages are constantly being. told to people that the system that that. basically the broader Society is. essentially unfair as opposed to telling. them that really the playing field is. more level than it's ever been and the. crazy thing is up until about 202 12. that's what we thought you know I blame. Obama people that don't a lot of people. do but you know because there's sorts of. a a a political incentive yes to.

communicate that way and you know to. promote this idea that it's everybody's. fault and you know everybody goes and. then you get white guilt involved like. it's not my fault I'm a I'm an ally and. then they jump in and next you know. people are looking for racism everywhere. like racist columbos it's weird the it's. weird how it shifted because when I was. a kid. racism was bad period no one cared it. just it got to this weird Point. somewhere around 2012 where it was. everywhere in society and you had to.

encounter unconscious bias and. unconscious racism training in the. workplace so then you get these grifters. who their only job is to tell you that. everything is racist and their only job. is to berate you and scare you. into you have to give in to whatever. their demands are in terms of the. numbers of employ and have to be X Y or. Z and they develop. these like very rigid rules that you. have to follow now they're in control no.

they're they're controlling what you're. allowed to say the way you're allowed to. discuss things if someone says anything. about a person that is of a particular. group that becomes either homophobic or. transphobic or racist or you're not. taking into account all these other. factors it l that person be you know. it's not Equitable there's all this. nonsense talk that's used by grifters oh. because it's a cult but it didn't exist. this is what people need to understand. that was all dismissed when I was a kid. by.

2012 by around that time that was not a. thing in 2001 that was not a thing this. thing calling RAC there was always. racism there was always people that were. saying there was racism in the workplace. and and I'm sure it's true because some. people suck but it wasn't this overall. message that Society is inherently. racist I mean think about how Obama was. raised by his white mom you know by a. single mom you know and his grandparents. were there she didn't teach him that he. was a victim that he was helpless.

against Society well he literally became. the president of the United States the. most difficult job to get on Earth I. mean she so I mean I mean greatest. success American success story you could. imagine I mean here here he's like. reelected in 2012 like this stuff is. starting you know black lives matter. starts in I think it like was it 2015 or. was it 2013 I can't remember but he sees. all that stuff happening there's. literally nobody on the planet more. capable of of pushing back against all. that bad wokeism than Barack Obama.

Barack Hussein Obama is so well. positioned to do it he doesn't do it you. know I mean and I think part of it is. that it works for Democrats yes it works. that's Dem it works politically for them. yeah and that but that's a but that's. actually a tragedy especially for young. black men in this country to be teaching. this this idea they're he does once in a. while he'll say something about it but I. mean the whole black lives matter. movement which was you know just a. tragedy you know where you're you're the.

the grotesque exaggeration of police. killings of unarmed black men he was in. a position to push back against that and. they didn't do it and he hasn't done it. since he left office so that's why I say. I blame him just because of what he. hasn't done because there have been. grotesque uses of police brutality on. black people and we all know it the. problem is if you say that it's not as. big of a problem we have very specific. instances where it was a problem so it's. like I don't think but the problem dein.

I mean we looked at FBI data from the. 70s the problem is bad cops it declined. but it declined Jo it declined so much. from the 70s until right sure but it. doesn't mean that it's not still a giant. issue if you're a black man and you. encounter cops and you're terrified I. mean it's under it's under it's about. one or two dozen a year that's still a. lot of people that die that didn't have. to die if the police weren't in compet. or if they weren't racist or if they. weren't [ __ ] up on PTSD because a lot. of them. are yeah but if you calculate the number. of the the increase of the number of.

black people killed because the police. pulled back in reaction to Black lives. matter what we call the Ferguson effect. right where you out there demonizing and. yeah that's not the correct response no. and so the cops pull back and so you get. more black deaths I mean it's you get. cops that are terrified to police yeah. you getop cops that are demonized you. get terrible morale you get a lot of. really bad things and then you get a. wakeup call a few years later where. people are like we need to refund the.

police and that's what happened in. Minnesota and it's happening in a lot of. places where people are up in arms like. our communities are more [ __ ] up now. than they've ever been before this. didn't help anybody and you didn't even. fill the void it's not like you you. defunded the police but figured out some. new strategy that's more effective and. implemented that no he just created this. bizarre environment where you allow. people to steal if you you make a law. that makes allow people to steal up to. $950 worth of [ __ ] they're just going to. steal $950 worth of [ __ ] every chance.

they get and then you're going to see. all these businesses closing down like. in San Francisco you know um chamath was. on the podcast recently he thinks that. San Francisco is going to experience a. rebirth because of AI and his. perspective is that the the super nerds. are like more in charge of San Francisco. now and so these sort of midlevel. grifters who are into virtue signaling. which is like how you got ahead in a lot. of these businesses where you're not. really exceptional as a person but you. fit a good quota and you're kind of a. Dei hire next thing you know to a CEO of.

a big company and it's nuts and it. happens and he said that's not going to. happen anymore because like AI is going. to essentially Revitalize that area. because there's going to be so much. money and the people that are going to. be running it are going to be the actual. Geniuses. again I me but also he and David Sachs I. mean they've had such a powerful impact. just in talking back to that culture yes. I mean their podcast is so dominant now. in business that I think it's just made. it's just given courage so is Mark Andre. yes they've given courage to people to. just not put up with it so much of.

brilliant brilliant people who are. finally expressing themselves and I. think that's so huge and Mark and. chamath and all all these folks that are. doing that now it's courageous because. if you step out of line uh for with the. ideology with the IDE ideology supports. you get attacked oh yeah it's not fun. well there was I think there was an. earlier generation of tech leaders who. went along with the political. correctness and so now you get Andre and. Sachs and these guys and Elon the. biggest one yeah I mean he's that's the.

biggest push back ever yeah well the. biggest push back ever is he spends $44. billion doar to purchase Twitter and. then we find out all the stuff that's. going on and it's incredible the fact. that it's still go that the Brazil thing. is unresolved and so the only way it's. going to be resolves if they get rid of. those 12 people oh well yeah wow we're. circling back yeah let's Circle back. well I mean yeah I mean well so one one. important observation about this so. first of all Elon was very strong on. Brazil I think that there's a way in. which he's going to probably have to cut.

a deal to get X back in Brazil we don't. talk at all about Zuckerberg and Google. you know we all this pressures on Elon. look you know they are they giving in to. the requirements yeah they gave in right. away I mean that's the that's what ban. those people off of Facebook all those. people that you were talking about I I. can't I can't prove it but I assume that. that's the case. um yeah they went along with it I mean. only Elon stood up against it so I mean. Facebook has just engaged in a huge. amount more censorship you know they the.

the fact Checkers they they Outsource. their brain to these fact Checkers who. are then funded by all these Bad actors. I think the thing about the Brazil that. shows is you know they froze star Link's. bank accounts and they they exceeded its. assets so you know because people point. out you know elon's incredibly powerful. richest man in the world I mean starlink. is this incredible Innovation I've seen. you talk about it. but at the end of the day it actually. makes him somewhat vulnerable because. then they can just you know it's not. just about X like if you if the. Brazilian government can come in and. seize starlink Assets in a country where.

starlink is absolutely essential because. the Amazon you know it allows for this. incredible. connectivity so it really I for me it's. just you still need a free speech. movement like you need to to rein. culcate and I think the other thing that. I've realized um in the in the last year. and a half of doing the Twitter files. and other other censorship files is that. because I used to think that my support. for free speech that our support for. free speech was sort of like natural or. something but I realize like it was.

taught to me like I remember my father. teaching me about skoi and telling me. that the ACLU had defended the right of. Nazis to March through a neighborhood of. Holocaust Survivors and I remember being. horrified by it as a very you know woke. kid and being like that's very. insensitive and my dad kind of being. like well yeah but here's why we do it. that way right and it was um because. actually censorship would then be used. against other people and he would also. make this point and I had I was making. this yesterday to to my future students. at University of Austin is that you want.

to know who the Nazis are yeah you. actually want to know who the Nazis are. and you want to argue with the Nazis. right you you this idea that we're. there's a fantasy people say oh well if. we had if Germany had like censored the. Nazis then they wouldn't have come to. power they did censor the Nazis like. they had imposed a censorship regime. before the Nazis came to power they were. they were they were censoring them they. came to power reinforced that system so. much better to defeat these bad ideas in. the realm of Free Speech but I do think.

there's a whole younger generation that. never got indoctrinated into the. religion of free speech in the ways that. we as gen xers did well I think they're. learning it more now because it's being. discussed now because it's under threat. and I think people need to understand. the ramifications of giving the. government. control they they they're not truthful. there's no instances where you could. look back and say well the government. never lies about this there's not one. thing whether it's health care whether. it's uh international relations whether.

it's uh their political opponents. whatever it is things get distorted. there's lies that get told that's just. how it goes it's an incredible it's an. incredible sort of master tool for so. many different things I mean it's you. know I mean half of it is just calling. it censorship these guys are so good. with language they talk about how I'm. just doing counter disinformation right. like who could possibly defend. disinformation andinformation I'm doing. counter disinformation the problem is. like who gets to decide and are there. ramifications let's say if you're one of.

those people that said the Hun Biden. laptop was Russian disinformation and. you signed off on that what what are the. ramifications what's the result of that. is do do people still call on you for. suggestions and questions like people. that were involved in rushia gate with. Trump that promoted that idea how come. they still get to talk on CNN. unbelievable but the whole thing is very. bizarre it's like you really are against. misinformation you have to stop it. everywhere you see it including from. yourself so if your own organization is. a purveyor of misinformation and you're. acutely aware of it and you hide it and.

you dismiss it and you Gaslight. everybody and then you say we have to. stop misinformation online well what. about yourself how about start with you. you have to clean up your own [ __ ]. yard before you come to us well look I. mean it's like I fight I'm a journalist. I'm investigating what is the truth. about a lot of different topics I'm. fighting Mis information but I'm doing. it through Free Speech you're but you're. actually doing it you're not what. they're doing is pretending well right. pretending it's not really. misinformation it's inconvenient.

information my favorite one was Mal. information right oh well you should. explain what that is Mal information is. information that is true but could be. harmful that's amazing which is so nuts. and that was they they could apply that. to vaccine hesitancy right so you could. tell truthful stories about vaccine. injuries they would attribute that to. they would put that in the category of. this is going to contribute to vaccine. hesitancy so they would put okay we put. the label of Mal information on that one.

and we can silence that well this was. and that was in the Facebook files where. the the Facebook's top um researcher. says to the White House they go hey our. research shows that if you censor true. stories of vaccine side effects shocking. as it sounds people will become more. suspicious of the vaccine um so it's. actually yeah it's it's they do. contradict themselves in that sense I. think the other you know the hunter. bying the laptop story we talk about it. a ton but what was so important about it.

is that the disinformation campaign. comes before the censorship they go out. and they say and I this this is will'll. be a segue to our conversation about. UFOs um they get you know FBI gets the. laptop in December. 2019 they know it's hun B's laptop they. know it's not Russian. disinformation Aspen Institute which is. funded by the US government and very. close to the intelligence Community then. goes and brainwashes journalists and the. social media companies into into. preparing that there could be a hack and.

leak coming around Hunter Biden's laptop. and of course Mark Zuckerberg made. history here with you when he told you. that the FBI had come to him in the. summer of 2020 warant of a hacking leak. operation so they do that and then they. come out and then when the when the. laptop comes out they demand that it be. censored but the the key thing there is. that there was an organized. disinformation effort around that laptop. by people that were fed that by the FBI. this is why I'm so confident now in. saying that both the FBI and the CIA. interfered in the 2020 election because.

they ran this disinformation campaign. whereby censorship was one part of it. but it was actually the part that came. after the disinformation and it probably. would have had a significant effect on. the income of the outcome of the. election I mean I personally I voted for. Biden by the way and and when I saw that. story I was like I was like there's. clearly something wrong wrong with it it. looks like it's you know it's a hacking. leak it looks like I mean I genuinely. believe that now would I have voted for. Trump otherwise I don't know well we. already had found out that the steel. dossier was [ __ ] so it makes sense.

that that would be [ __ ] too there. was a precedent well also was the they. were also the hack and leak was remember. also about the Hillary um emails the. Hillary emails the John podesta emails. the DNC emails so it made it fit a it. fit a particular framework but what's. important is that the FBI knew that it. was legitimate the entire right so. that's misinformation if you say that. it's not true that's misinformation you. got to stop that stop that it's. disinformation cuz they knew was not. true right right the other one and then.

the CIA remember Gina haspel was. director of the CIA for Trump um she was. part of it because she approved the. letter from the 51 former CIA uh. directors and leaders that said that it. had all the earmarks of a Russian. information operation she approved that. letter within hours all she had to do. all I mean look I mean assuming she. didn't know all she had to do was to. call the FBI right you know she all she.

had to do was I mean look they had a. very clear they had a clear agenda clear. I mean it's such an un Joe it's such an. unprecedented thing when you talk to. Martin G who's a former CIA guy you talk. to you know people that you know that. really love the CIA that really believe. in it they were like that is insanely. unprecedented a for these cuz you know. the classic statement is nobody ever. leaves the intelligence community so to. have Former Intelligence people doing. that is just absolutely I mean that's. just unacceptable it's wild it's really. wild and it we've never had that happen.

before which is why it's so scary that. nothing happened because of it there was. no repercussions I mean people should go. to prison for that talk to me about. aliens what's going on you know anything. okay let me Segway I got to segue on. that because okay here's the craziest. thing that Aspen Institute Hunter Biden. dis operation was run by two people. Vivian Schiller and Garrett graph Vivian. Schiller is this just wild per you know. she was New York Times NPR Twitter.

executive highlevel executive now runs. Aspen's digital initiative Garrett graph. is this you know acclaimed non-fiction. book writer they did the hunter Biden. disinformation campaign where they they. program and brainwash these journalists. and the social media Platforms in. advance of the release of the Hun Biden. story well guess who wrote The Big Book. dismissing. UFOs earlier this year guess guess who.

guess who came out with that book. Garrett. graph oh so what is going on oh with. Aspen and Aspen who is like one of their. their I think it's their biggest or one. of their biggest uh supporters is the US. government so also I just got real. interested what's this is very very. suspicious you should invite him on your. show and ask him some questions. um why did he decide to do a book about. UFOs um what was you know so here you. have people that I feel very confident. saying were part of an FBI run.

disinformation and censorship initiative. on Herb's laptop then turning around. they then did an interview he he she. then interviews him at like Aspen. Institute you know classic YouTube so I. saw it on YouTube She's interviewing him. there's this moment it's so crazy she. goes they says there's something like. they both kind of go well you know um. the reason we this is just UFOs are. obviously a conspiracy theory is because. you know the government can't you know. the government is incompetent and can't. get away with this kind of thing well.

that is that is madness because of. course the US government is actually. very good at keeping secrets you know. from the making of the atomic bomb until. today there are a lot of secrets that. the US government is actually quite. capable of holding and nobody knows that. better than Vivian Schiller and gred. graph of the Aspen Institute who ran the. hunterbiden operation so what they're. doing is they're. deliberately it's it's a s i mean I use. scop or whatever you call it because a.

lot of people are experien of ordinary. Normy experiences of government is going. to the DMV right so you go W the DMV. yeah that's the government the people. that are working at the CIA and the FBI. at those high levels are best intell. they're like some of the smartest people. in the world I mean these are people. that they're recruiting them out of the. IV leagues the idea that they're that. these agencies are incompetent and I'm. not saying that they're always competent. but these are some of the Premier spies. that have ever existed and the idea that. somehow the US government you know can't. carry out these operations or keep it.

secret that's obviously wrong and then. we have these have all these. whistleblowers coming forward so that's. that's the Prelude to what is your. thought on it so what do you think there. so if it's a scop and what I I'm not. aware of what the book is and what their. premises but essentially the premises. that UFOs are bullsh [ __ ] the it's a. it's a very sophist it's a very. sophisticated book so I mean it's worth. you know I encourage people to read it. in part to understand like how is the US.

what's the most sophisticated take by. the US government the less sophisticated. um treatment was by Sean Kirkpatrick who. was the recently departed head of the. defense Department's all um all saap uh. no Arrow okay that's the um uh all. domain anomaly resolution office that. was created by the Senate that came out. with this very dismissive report about. UFOs um and then he left the head of. Arrow left and has now just been. ridiculing and attacking all the UFO.

whistleblowers including you know David. grush and Lou asando and all these folks. but the book is so basically this is a. book of the history of UFOs and it's. just it basically just goes through. every single major case and shows you. why it's just not it's not a UFO I mean. basically it's showing or why it's a. natural pH doing what Project Blue Book. did it's it's it's absolutely an. extension of it's really um and remember. in 1953 the CIA created something called. the Robertson panel and the Robertson. panel comes out and says the US.

government should just focus on. debunking UFO cases and and including. ridiculing people which is a very cruel. treatment of people because it's such a. devastating socially so devastating to. be ridiculed sure and then you get the. Condon report the Condon committee which. is the University of Colorado 19 66 to. 1968 same thing dismisses this suggests. all. Cooks the Garett graph's UFO book is. more sophisticated it's actually a.

little bit more gentle in the sense that. it's it's dismissing all these things. it's also um it's also talking about. like these maybe natural phenomena it. might be plasmas or ball lightning um. you know and then they kind of go. through the psychological but the whole. book is aimed at just. absolutely uh dismissing the phenomena I. mean that's the whole purpose I think. some of the phenomena should be. dismissed um I think that's one thing. that we really need to accept when we. try to develop an objective sense of.

what's really going on that ball. lightning is real um sure Plasma's real. there's a lot lot of real natural. phenomenon ball lightning is bizarre and. if you ever see ball lightning and you. imagine you a person alone in the forest. and you saw ball lightning you would. 100% [ __ ] your pants you'd be like oh my. God there's a [ __ ] alien here and. they're going to get me they going to. take me like Travis Walton um I also. think there's something going on with. the government I believe that they have. and this is a pure guess based on no.

evidence at all I think they probably. have some super sophisticated propulsion. program that's based on something that. is an entirely new set of physics it's. probably based on some sort of gravity. propulsion some there's long B uh. speculation that uh eventually there'll. be an ability to create something that. does not rely on conventional propulsion. there long been some sort of an. understanding of a manipulation of. gravity in fact there was a there was an.

article like some science journal from. like. 1957 that was talking about the new wave. of gravity devices they're going to. start coming it's going to be gravity. planes and we're not going to use. propulsion. anymore people have always wondered if. we're eventually going to crack that and. if they did crack that. I think the problem is um I think a lot. of these things are drones and I think. the problem is biological life can't. survive those speeds I think those.

things are moving at these insane rates. of speed because there's nothing alive. that's piloting them and so that's why. humans can survive that's why you know. no humans can survive that kind of. gForce so there's no one in those things. it's. probably alien species that also visit. us uh I don't think that. outside the realm of possibility either. I think all those things are happening I. think that one has been documented. clearly throughout human history that. there there's been these experiences and.

you've got to chalk some of them up to. [ __ ] lies hysteria there's a lot of. but there's too many that are too. similar and um I'm in the middle of. jacqu Val's book have you read any of. his stuff I've read almost all of it uh. I'm in the middle of uh it's called. dimensions that's what it is and uh. that's that there's a there's a three. Trinity of books there apparently I. didn't know that when I pick this one up. but Dimensions is all one of the things. that he does in the book is he has uh.

eyewitness accounts of uh UFO events. throughout history like going back in. the 1700s right and they're like uniform. they're fascinating and he also makes. this argument that there's a cultural. context as to what people see and that a. lot of these people that live in Ireland. they see you know leprechauns and elves. andies fairies and and that it's quite. possible this is not from another planet. that this is some sort of.

extradimensional experience that these. things come from somewhere that's here. but not here and that this is why. they've existed forever and this is why. there's no evidence of them and they. just they they come and go as they. please and they're probably a completely. different type of thing than what we are. this bizarre carbon-based life form that. we are they're probably some parallel. Evolution that took place somewhere else. that's probably gone on a million years. past where we are or that's just. guessing you know who knows what it is.

but there's something else to it there's. some sort of a spiritual element to it. that it's it's not as simple as a metal. ship comes from another place and lands. here but I also think the metal ship. coming from another place might be real. too if you just take into account the. sheer vastness of the universe and the. unbelievable possibilities of the. variety of life you would think there's. got to be intelligent life and if if we. do have some sort of super sophisticated. drone technology that doesn't rely on.

conventional propulsion systems which. there's evidence of okay if you look at. the go fast video if you look at the. Fleer video and David fr's experiences. with the Tik Tok where they got video of. that thing they got radar of that thing. so we know something can move that way. that fast something can you would think. that if if that's here and it is real. and there's video footage of it so we. know that a real phenomena took place so. that means someone it either whether. it's here or whether it's someone where.

else can figure that out so now we know. that could be done so if that could be. done today in 2024 and back then it was. 2004 which you encountered that who. knows if it's you know hours or from. another planet or whatever the [ __ ] it. is it was a thing that existed that an. intelligent creature had created it just. makes sense that the sky is littered. with that probably littered there's. probably millions and millions and. millions of planets that have. intelligent life on them and a bunch of. them probably are capable of inter.

Interstellar travel and a proba probably. a bunch of them aren't even biological. anymore they're probably some sort of. super sophisticated AI that ran a mock. and took. over there a lot of possibilities a lot. of Poss an infinite number of. possibilities but when the government. wants to dismiss all of them as being. explainable in nonsense and it's the. same people that dismissed the hunter. bider laptop story yeah you should get. nervous yeah well that's I mean I'm I. don't know what they are and I'm and I'm.

agnostic in some. SE well let me. yeah well yes I have actually what you. say I mean I don't know what they were. but I've seen things I can't explain. what did you. see so I saw so there's twice I've seen. things I saw one time I saw um three. lights that were I thought they were. stars and then they and then the one on. the they were all just like they looked.

almost like a Ryan's Belt like three. stars and then the the one on the far. left uh just broke away from the other. two and then did and it was weird I'm. this is going to sound really weird and. so I don't just express it it just it. really like literally if it felt like it. was pulling my left eye the left like I. was looking at them and it like you know. how like like it's almost like you're. being crossy but it felt like it was. literally pulling my left eye and then. it just did a set of um squiggles like. that and then a cloud Bank came over and.

covered it up you know I don't know what. it. was I know drones didn't look like a. drone there was no noise how did you see. a shape of this thing or was it. like white they were just white lights I. couldn't I couldn't tell how high up. they were M and then the other one I saw. was actually in a suburb of of of. Houston or was it Dallas and I was. running at night um and there were these. two guys there two black eyes uh young.

guys that just gotten out their car and. they were they were and I had seen these. orange. orbs and then they were filming them. with their cameras and uh I went over. them and I was like what what are those. and they're like we don't know I mean. they looked a little bit like at first. you thought they were Chinese lanterns. but there was no paper bag you know the. lanterns are no like there's nothing. there so they looked. like and they also kind of looked like. there's some translucent thing around. them and they just they looked I. couldn't also tell how big they were. couldn't figure out where they were.

coming from I went and ran around the. neighborhood trying to figure out where. they were coming from to see if maybe. somebody was sending off how fast were. they moving shockingly slow like they. were sort of flating they were kind of. they felt like they were. floating so I'm not saying again I don't. know what they what happened with them I. watched them until they stopped coming. for like I mean I just watched them they. just kind of would appear out of nowhere. and then they would they would like it. was in this residential neighborhood and. then they just drift off and they would. float over I we watched them at one.

point float all over over downtown so. it's probably like a myar balloon or. something with an inside of it I mean it. was just they were they were all blurry. and orange I mean I looked up orange. cloud cover to ioto I actually. photographed I have a bunch of videos of. them let me see all right well send it. to Jamie okay we're going to it we'll. tell you what it is all right but I also. want to tell you the thing we just did. all right okay let's I need those videos. all right okay so it's going to we're. going to people going have to wait for. me we'll pause all right we'll pause all.

right and I also have the ones that the. guy so the guys there we exchanged phone. numbers and stuff and they texted me. since we're paused I have an update on. your story that's been published already. oh what is it people found out on Google. there was some mentions of that back. they think when grush brought it up in. 2023 and since that was made public on. Twitter it seems that Google has removed. those searches what yeah this is for the. the name we're keeping this in well then. I was going to bring it up when we came. this is a maculate conception yeah. there's the screenshot someone took of.

uh a. spike wow um I guess it doesn't say the. exact date I was trying to find it and. triy to recreate it too and then like an. hour later the Spike's gone oh that's. crazy I'm I did did but did but did. grush mention Immaculate Conception I. don't know it says uh okay the term. Immaculate Conception is rarely searched. on Google of course searches for uh. seches for it skyrocketed today and this. is because of uaps so what did grush say. Immaculate Conception is the name of the. secret UAP Pentagon program that I I.

revealed today interesting yeah. interesting um show. more uh of course searches for it. Skyrocket but there was one other time. it was displayed in a large blip June. 2023 just as modern UAP crash retrieval. story broke David grush went public and. hearings were planned whoa but they. removed that Spike so they pretend it. doesn't exist anymore I don't know so it. says zero there so it's hard to say it. could have been a you know Google Trend. blip that people were trying to make.

something more out of but it is a weird. you know it's weird I'll just say it is. weird that it it just jumped up one day. and then stopped but also people have. like a [ __ ] very quick news. cycle how's it going over there me oh. finding the I'm trying to find the. videos um how long ago was this it was. uh last. year and it must have been so here's the. other here's the other weird thing is. that I it was the same day that I. published a story about uaps oh so you.

ever wonder like maybe they're [ __ ]. with you and they find out where you are. and they send some drones over to this. place get them to start talking I mean I. I felt better because there were there. were two other guys there you know and I. have their info and um so yeah I don't. it's just uh of course who knows what it. is but at least it's not behaving like. something out of this world it's not. like the Phoenix Lights where you got. something that's a mile long flying over. Phoenix and no one can figure out what.

it is right there's just there's enough. of these that make me think there's. something going on I I don't think it's. all [ __ ] I think some of it is ours. but I think a bunch of it's probably not. ours but so first of all if they are IRS. and they're anti-gravity that's just. insane insane and and part of me that's. skeptical of it is because I know a lot. about nuclear energy and nuclear power. and it took a huge amount of effort to. build the bombs M huge huge amount of. effort huge number of people so the idea.

that anti-gravity was then sort of like. oh yeah we just did that in like a. couple years or something that strikes. me as really improbable yeah very. improbable in a couple years but if. they're doing it over decades and. they're doing it with retrieved crashes. which seems to be a part of the. narrative yeah you know uh Diana Pula. and Gary Nolan you're where there were. they call them the crash sites. donations that's very interesting it. gets weird it gets weird because uh.

there's a bunch of inventions they. attribute to Crashed retrievals where. they back engineered. stuff you know I would imagine that if I. was a super sophisticated Society from. another planet and I saw these. struggling Apes I would uh give them. some hints yeah how do I send these to. you you can uh air drop them to Jamie's. MacBook. okay see them in. there.

no air drop okay says no people oh there. you are Jamie's MacBook. Bam. um they don't I mean they don't look. like much you know they're just like. right orange dots but um but it's weird. it's weird and I'm and I'm want to. stress because I my critics always use. this to try to discredit me I don't know. what I don't know what it is I just. don't know what it is and and anybody. who says they do know what it is I get. very suspicious if they they they say I.

have all the information like how could. you yeah how could you how do you. absolutely know what it is this whole. thing is real weird it's real weird when. fighter pilots recognize things that are. behaving in a way that they've never. seen before that's real [ __ ] weird. yeah when you've got these guys like um. you know grush is a the best example but. there was another pilot was another jet. that was with him multiple witnesses. that saw this thing physically you know. whatever these things Brian Graves when. they see these things like what what are.

these what are they what's the. explanation it's got to be somebody's if. it's a real thing if it's ours holy [ __ ]. like what are they doing and if it's not. ours holy [ __ ] right is this another. nation and if it's not another nation. and holy [ __ ] are we getting visited by. interdimensional beings or something. from another planet like what's your. take well guess well here's what I mean. what I was what I am what I wrote today. and what I feel confident to say keep. those glasses on it makes you look.

smarter I'll take all the help I can get. doesn't it makes you look smarter I mean. what I so what today today's piece is. about a new whistleblower who has come. forward and has written a report and. this is somebody that is either in. government or is a government contractor. I I've interviewed this person multiple. times in person I've checked their. credentials they are who they say they. are they have written a report and. provided it to members of. Congress and in that report they claim.

that there is a that the Pentagon is. illegally withholding information from. Congress about a secret UAP program and. that secret UAP program is considered a. parent program of other of other. programs but it's called Immaculate. constellation. I was told by a I was I had it confirmed. by a second source that this is the. name I also was told that if we revealed. the name that we would probably fall get.

under. surveillance um by simply revealing the. name um I went to the Pentagon with a. story on Friday today is Tuesday um they. told me on Friday they couldn't get it. to me they couldn't get me a response by. the end of Friday they asked if I could. wait until Monday I said sure they said. Monday morning we'll get you a response. no response they said hopefully later. today nothing later today then they said. how about tomorrow morning finally. that's today so we gave them four full.

days I found the pentagon's. response odd because was the response. because they well first of all because. they said they were going to respond and. they didn't and so they never responded. they never responded I emailed the. spokesperson and said if you you know if. you give me a response I'll publish it. but I mean it could have been like no we. don't have a program like that right. such if they say that they don't have a. program like that then they're lying if. they have a program like that if they. have a program like that and if they. don't have a program like that should. they have to answer you like if they.

don't have a program like that then I. don't know what the harm is from saying. that they don't have a program like that. remember arrow with its this is the the. Blue Book you know 3.0 or whatever it is. um they said they looked and they were. like we looked and there's no secret UAP. program if I wanted to spread. misinformation or disinformation if I. was an intelligence. agent I think I would get someone to be. a. whistleblower I would sanction. whistleblowers I would I would tell them.

go on podcasts go on radio shows go on. television and discuss all these. different disclosures and you can't tell. them everything the top secret stuff you. know some some stuff you got to keep. secret boy I wish I could tell you but. there's more I can't tell you there's a. lot going on and that's a really good. way I would think if I was in control of. a narrative that I I wanted to be. continuously slippery like this is a. very slippery conversation like they you. never get to the end of it and what.

would be the motivation because there's. some sort of a program that that exists. that they want to hide and the best way. to hide it is to uh continually bring up. and then debunk these fake programs for. crash sites for dealing with aliens you. I I would make a bunch of things that. are absolutely provably untrue that. could eventually be proved as untrue. attribute them to these people and then. have everything else that gets said. about the subject get reduced to.

nonsense because that's essentially what. it does if you start talking about UFOs. and UAP Pro you're a cuckoo you're a c. until you show me some hard evidence. I've got bills I got a family I don't. have time for this and the people that. do get really wrapped up in they're kind. of kooky and the best way to keep that. cookiness going is to give them a little. bit of taste give them a taste throw. them a little breadcrumb Trail I think. there's a thing we found oh so you're. saying you would do that disinformation. if there were if you were covering up if. I was covering up uaps I would have all. these people go out and be.

whistleblowers because the more they do. it the more it looks ridiculous and the. more everyone's like disclosure is. imminent and it never comes no it's like. Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown. you never get a KCK football think but. here's what I would say I would say if. it's so first of all if the government. is running a disinformation campaign on. uaps right against the American people. that's bad and it seems like that's. serious business and it seems like if. they are doing that then I would want to. know seems like they're doing that well.

I'm I'm comfortable saying I'm like 90. 95% that the government is hiding. information okay so and the reason I'm. reason I'm so confident of that is. because Donald Trump said so multiple. times that they're hiding information um. and I cite him in the article they told. him that and also they lied to him about. a bunch of stuff didn't even tell him. about Chinese drones because they. worried he was going to shoot him down. so they told him something that he says. has not been made public to the American. people so so if that's um so my view is.

look if you think it's it's either a. secret weapons program that it's a. government disinformation program that. it's just miss sightings then I want the. government I wanted they they have an. obligation to tell us yes article the. first article of the Constitution is. Congressional oversight of the executive. branch that is why we are a democracy if. you have an executive branch that is. even covert operations secret weapons. programs all must be shared it doesn't.

have to be the whole Congress they have. the gang of eight you know which is the. heads of the military and intelligence. committees plus the ranking member plus. the uh the speaker and the and the. Senate head of the Senate and and the. minorities those eight people have to be. told well they're not being told what. this is it's no I'm not denying that. it's absolutely illegal but I'm saying. that if it is illegal and has been done. this way for so long the odds of you. untangling that are very they're going.

to fight against that with tooth and. nail because that's going to put a lot. of people in jail it's going to get a. lot of people fired a lot of people. going to lose their careers if they lied. to Congress if they misappropriated. funds there's a lot of weird stuff that. gets attached to that and so I think. there is some sort whether it's the. government whoever's doing it some sort. of sophisticated disinformation Tech c. campaign that's essentially a tied to. everything there's a disinformation. campaign that's a tied that's tied to. Medicine there's a disinformation. campaign tied to fluoride in the water.

there's a disinformation campaign that's. tied to almost everything the idea that. there wouldn't be for UFOs is kind of. crazy of course there is and I think but. if there is that's really but a. disinformation illegal it's illegal yeah. sure it's bad I know I agree with you I. agree with you I agree with you 100%. I have a feeling there's a lot going and. I think they have infantilized us for so. long that to to give up the Reigns of.

that is the same thing that people like. why they don't want to give up the. Reigns of free speech they're in control. of the power if you if you really do. have knowledge that we are not alone and. you're hiding that from the American. people you've well you've already made a. terrible choice and you've been probably. making this choice for decades why would. you change that now now and what are the. repercussions are any of them positive. it doesn't seem like they are for your. career I think the best way forward if. you're just one of those people that. wants to protect their career which most. of them are right which is what the.

whole Hunter Biden laptop thing was. about people protecting their career we. don't Trump get into office and. everybody here gets fired so they. protect their career with lies this is. just what people do so if if that if. you're asking them to. disclose stuff that they've been hiding. for so long good [ __ ] luck good luck. and if you wanted to create a. misinformation campaign or you wanted to. confuse the waters even more I'd have a. bunch of fake whistleblowers i' I'd get. agents to say a bunch of crazy [ __ ].

about biological entities and mind. control and shut down nuclear power. plants i' I'd have them say all kinds of. crazy [ __ ] that's provably untrue okay. here's a little red. lights is this just a photograph I think. it's a lantern it's a video let's see. yeah maybe it's a lantern but um oh wow. it does weird it didn't have the like a. paper around y that's moving pretty. quick whoa that's weird looking it.

didn't have any like paper um the. problem is you need a Samsung phone. because you'd have better Zoom I had a. friend just sent me a similar video from. Ohio where this his mom took and thought. it was some orbs flying over and it. looked honestly weirder than this and. then he found out a couple hours later. it was a memorial service there was a. bunch of lanterns that got left up in. yeah I mean it could be I'm not saying. it's not it's hard it's hard to look at. it because you've got it zoomed in cuz. you're not I'm not getting a perspective. of how quickly it's actually moving it. does look weird but it also looks like. how it would look like it was fire in.

one of those well now it's moving very. strange that's I just say it looks like. it's the fire and maybe wind blowing the. it could be was it a windy day no it was. not windy at all um that's [ __ ] weird. it was weird it's definitely weird but. it's not moving like supernaturally I. don't again I all I'm saying is that. it's unidentified drunk aliens they look. hammered like they're not even driving. straight I mean also they it was they. didn't look big so I mean I'm not. suggesting there was anybody in there um. and it wasn't like an it wasn't an orb.

like the story seems more interesting. the Stars moving seems more interesting. I've never seen. [ __ ] I convinced myself I saw something. when I was a kid but I'm pretty sure it. was a jet this is the one from my friend. that me but look there's like two or. three things that come together here and. that they're starting to fly together. that looks more like alien to me but. they found out it was like it was. lanterns yeah it's probably lanterns. that's probably what you saw yeah I. don't know did you did you get the last. one that's the whole beautiful thing. about like real uh investigations you.

could find out stuff that's nonsense and. ball lightning is one of my favorite. ones I've seen actual videos of ball. lightning have you ever seen it no I. don't think I have sh Jamie this is. obviously a lantern show us uh videos of. ball lightning I was looking for one. earlier there one that's clearly TGI. that I didn't want to get confused in. there so one of them staying still and. the other one's moving weird that could. be the moon I don't know what is that. other one I actually that's weird I. don't even remember that um so I'll just. uh see it's okay um see if you can find.

video of ball lightning ball lightning. is wild man if you didn't know what that. is if you didn't know that this is like. tectonic plates shifting against each. other and they release energy and you. see this stuff flying through the air. it's so crazy looking and it it doesn't. look does it look like this Fukushima. I'm not sure which one is a real case of. it I'll be honest with you that's ball. lightning uhhuh this isn't a lightning. storm but there's a really cool one of. uh this Canyon where ball lightning just. uh comes out of the ground this Canyon.

it's like I think this one on the I. think that's fake but I'm not. sure like that looks like CGI effects. that looks super fake that looks like a. ghost that might be a ghost it is CGI. it's pretty good but is that CGI that's. dope that looks like I mean if it is. that it could be lightning because it. does if that's ball lightning that's. wild the other one would be to look at. the to look at the Chinese lanterns and. see how they compare to the the orange. whatever it is like ball lightning is a. real thing and it's really weird and uh.

it it moves around and you if you didn't. know anybody you'd think it's an alien. but that doesn't discount like ezekiel's. take of a wheel within a wheel and all. the the crazy [ __ ] from the babat G. here's here's a lantern oh look a little. pretty Lantern that's what I just sent. yeah it's a lantern. bro it didn't look like it but you could. be right I don't know I just don't know. who knows it might be some kind of that. looked weird the cloud but but it's also. clouds and it's he's super zoomed in. yeah um so what do you think this this.

whistleblower says that the other part. of the story is the description of the. database and they say that there is. this very large database of high quality. videos still photos and also um other. sensory data that that has that has. captured atmospheric effects of. uaps um they you know Christopher melon. had said that that the Pentagon has much.

better quality uh video evidence than. has been released it makes me want to. get a job in the. Pentagon show me this person says that. that that there's a lot of it um and. they describe one case of an F-22 which. is a amazing fighter jet being escorted. by a set of UAP orbs out of its Target. Mission area um another case of uh a. UAP uh declining from very high up in.

the atmosphere and coming right over an. aircraft carrier that the entire crew. saw so some incidents that have not been. reported it's a the report is in the. hands of members of Congress and this is. a critical time because again if you are. a skeptic if you're debunker whatever. you should not want the government. spreading disinformation on this if you. want to get to the bottom of it we. should get to the bottom of it we need. Congress right to hold hearings and then.

the the other pitch I'd make on this. issue is that these people that I'm. interviewing if they're first of all if. they're actors they're incredible. because they are genuinely terrified. when I talk to them they're genuinely. scared um you know most actors aren't. very good actors so I'm always like. these guys are the greatest actors I've. ever met these people um so they need. better whistleblower protections and if. you interview Congressional staffers. members of Congress they will. acknowledge that whistleblowers do not. have proper protections whether for uaps.

or anything else what do you what is. your take on this what do you think is. going on with the uaps I I genuinely I'm. genu look for more videos I was just. going to keep sending them the got. enough of the lantern all enough of the. lanterns um but you see what's going on. here you want to believe that's not. lanterns so you want to keep showing us. better videos I'm genuinely agnostic in. the keep sending videos well I I'm just. being thorough.

dude I'm convinced I'm putting all my. money on lanterns uh on the orange orbs. what so what do you think this UAP. program what do you think they're. actually studying like what is. that I don't know I don't know all I all. I'm all I'm really confident saying. because in other words I'm I'm very much. an incrementalist in the sense that like. I like my stories to move the ball. forward this has been it's been over a. year since I've done a story on this and. I was always like and I'm not going to. I'm not somebody that wants to just I. mean on some things I'll write a similar. stort like free speech or whatever but. on this issue I'm like I'm not going to.

write a new story unless I really have. something right I'm very confident that. the government is not revealing all that. it knows and that Arrow the organization. that the Congress created to reveal what. the government knows did not reveal what. it knows and that really was engaged. because it's one thing to be like hey we. didn't find anything it's all good but. then for the guy that was running that. program to come out and actively. disparage people in the ways that. they're doing that's character. assassination that's that's the that's.

the ridicule strategy I object to that. because I don't think that that's. conscionable I think you can be like. look that person misinformed it or. whatever you thought that the were. orange orbs or something that they. weren't or whatever but to go out there. and like actively disparage people that. really I think it's very concerning um. it is concerning and it also makes you. very suspicious yeah what so why why why. would you why why the need to be such a. dick about it um it's a pictur no noos. out um the the dis like it's a it's it's.

a strategy of of of counter it's a. strategy of of character assassination. and I think it's not something that our. government should be engaged in no I I. agree with you but it also makes me. wonder what's the motivation and what. you you must have formed some sort of a. a personal opinion on what's going on or. at least you have an inclination towards. what's going on I mean I think that if. you read through the histories so I. mean I just think the pro the problem is. that there's so many possibilities of.

what's going on um like I said I'm a. little skeptical that we've mastered. anti-gravity because that would just be. so game-changing and I think it would. just take a huge amount of effort on the. other hand I have interviewed people. that are not comfortable coming forward. yet that that say that we have and and. claim direct evidence of that um and. it's just not I can't unfortunately say. much more about it and these are folks. that want stronger whistleblower. protections to be able to come forward.

right but I find it I find it hard to. believe just because of my knowledge of. nuclear that that we've we've got those. capabilities um I also you know like. what's amazing is like the most for me. one of the most amazing parts of this is. when you just go into the newspaper. archives and you're reading stories from. the 40s and the 50s and the 60s and 70s. and you're seeing and that's part of the. reason I I'm also with you I'm skeptical. that we are getting any closer because. there's a way in which like you read New. York Times magazine stories from the. 1960s and70s that actually treat the. subject not with ridicule but treated.

seriously and they actually were. reporting on government you know. programs and whatnot well Project Blue. Book was essentially designed to. ridicule the people that thought they. saw something Jay Allen hanik when he. left Project Blue Book became a UFO. proponent yeah that's all you need to. know and he very convincing yeah well. absolutely convinced that it's all real. yeah and and it explained how he was. told to label everything as swamp gas. and yeah which by the way if you watch. that original press conference the where.

he says it could be swamp gas which I. think it was a Michigan sighting the. whole room just goes ah they're like. they the whole the whole room is so. convinced that it's not swamp gas that. they're like it's like journalists. they're like all they're all they. ridicule the idea that it's swamp gas so. there's definitely moments in history. where you have Elites you know media. Elites government Elites and others who. are like this is a real phenomenon and. we need to take seriously I think we're. in that moment again now Congress needs. to do more we need to have those. protections for whistleblowers they need. to pass this disclosure legislation and.

anybody who in my view who anybody. that's like a debunker or skeptic or. whatever who says that we shouldn't pass. legislation to disclose what the. government knows for me that person is. acting in bad faith because if you're. really sure that there's nothing there. then you should be first in line to. demand disclosure do you think there's a. genuine fear. in giving people this information and. having a collapse of society if it turns. out to be true if a genuine if we there. was a full disclosure and all this um. top secret uh video that has been hidden.

that's really high. resolution all that stuff gets released. and the government says this is what we. know I'm sorry sorry we keeping this. from you but if we you know but what. would it show imunity I mean so the I. know what it is say what it shows but. maybe they know what it CHS let's say. let's take a most let's take a very. let's say that there's extraterrestrials. okay and the government knows about it. and let's say maybe there was already in. contact and then the government comes. out and goes hey we we've been in. contact with. extraterrestrials. um like what did they say they go the.

extraterrestrials told us that there is. no God and that they were just they had. they created all these. religions then the question is why would. we believe them I mean in other words. like if you're like a truly if you're. who's saying that I'm not saying anybody. is who's saying that they're. extraterrestrial say there's no God no. I'm saying that if if you go through the. scenario that goes oh societies will. collapse because people will it'll. counter I mean that's the story right I. think the society collapses because. we're faced with an intelligent being.

that's been able to visit us for ages. whenever it wants and we weren't aware. of it and we the illusion that anyone of. human race is in control of this Earth. and can lead us from some sort of a. position of knowledge and strength in. the face of this overwhelming force from. another planet that would that would be. a collapse of rules and of of society. the like that we have never seen before. why because no one would listen to. anyone anymore because there would all a.

sudden be a new daddy in town and people. would want to figure out what the new. daddy wants them to do it depends. because I mean I think that you have a. scenario where it goes um again we're. just we're just completely I'm talking. Mass hysteria fear I don't know you just. kind not if I mean if the government's. like look we've been in contact with. them for decades and here's what they. want you know they just want a you know. they want an earth base and they want. some of our you know uh you know. whatever I mean I think if they were. like they're actually the abductions are. all real and we signed a deal to trade. technology for abductions that could be.

problematic you think that's real I. don't that's what I've read that before. I mean that's that's part of the lore. right that's part of the L who's making. deals with aliens I think much more. likely be they do whatever the [ __ ] they. want to do and we're terrified of them. that's what I think would Mo much more. likely like are you going to make a deal. with like. baboons are you going to go to the the. [ __ ] baboon tribe and go listen you. [ __ ] dummies I'm I'm going to make a. deal with you no you're going to do. whatever you want you're going to abduct. them and perform studies on them that's. what we do no we but we we've we've well.

but we've we've gone through I mean I. happened I I included a how we've. protected gorillas in my book apocalypse. never and like we actually I saw a. gorilla in a zoo just a few years ago he. did not look protected he looked like he. was in a gorilla prison for no [ __ ]. reason no Joe you've got to go see. gorillas in central Africa in live it's. incredible it's an incredible experience. words but a huge amount I mean people. have I mean Diane FY I mean people have. fought to protect gorillas in their. native habitat the gorillas nowhere.

there right they actually you have to um. but the reality is some gorillas get. abducted and they get put into zoos yes. that's the reality okay same as some. humans get abducted and they get brought. on the spaceship well we don't know that. we don't know that I think probably have. you ever listened to Betty and Barney. Hill talk about it that case I I just. read a debunking of that case and. debunking yeah and I found it uh you. found it what oh there it is okay. finally Pentagon goes on record uh so.

following Michael Story the dod has now. commented the Department of Defense has. no record present or historical of any. type of sap called Immaculate. constellation well was that so hard why. did that take four days that came from. Su how do you say her name sug gof I. guess sug gof uh there's a lot to digest. I doubt the dod would ever likely. confirm a u ap's existence I am trying. to confirm whether any type of sap also. refers to usap it should we'll bring you. more info us is just an unacknowledged. special Access program so they say it's.

[ __ ] I think I'm gonna well I mean. but to I know but this is my whole point. to keep everybody [ __ ] clueless and. guessing and keep all the infighting. going on wouldn't you release a bunch of. [ __ ] that's not necessarily true I would. if I was really running a secret. government UFO retrieval program and we. were in contact with extraterrestrials I. would release a bunch of nonsense all. the time that makes it look stupid just. like they did with Project Blue Book.

you're saying if there are if there if. there is truly extraterrestrials then. the government would do disinformation. on I think that that's interesting that. makes sense I mean like because they. always go people always go well it's. just a secret weapons program and so. they're just they're just trying to. create the aliens around it but we had a. we had a Manhattan Project also how can. you say that you don't know nobody knows. anything you could say it might be a. secret weapons program yeah maybe but it. might be we get visited by [ __ ]. aliens from outer space because space is.

goddamn huge and life is here so we know. intelligent life exists in our solar. system which is one of hundreds of. billions of solar systems just in this. galaxy alone and there's hundreds of. billions of galaxies in the known. universe the odds that this is it are. [ __ ] dumb this is a that's a dumb. thought so are we visited and does the. government know this is the question and. if they did know and they've been. protecting us all these years because. especially back before they had any any. control of uh when when they had all.

control rather of any narrative whether. it's newspaper television the government. had complete and total control I mean. and the the real argument is after. Kennedy was assassinated assassinated. they've had control over everything. including the presidency right so you. you can say whatever you want why would. you tell people why would you tell. people about UFOs and complicate your. life just say it's [ __ ] hire a guy. to tell everybody it's [ __ ] and then. a few people know about it and those few. people are the privileged few and it. feels kind of cool to have some inside. information and every now and then you.

get a little whistleblower and that. guy's a cook Bob Bazar come on Bob Bazar. is a loser that guy he would you really. think we'd have him work on our oh he's. on the list of the employees at uh Los. Alamos labs that's a [ __ ] [ __ ] so. he knows the inside of Los Alamos lab. Labs by heart he can walk you around he. knows his security guards they know him. by name they remember him he can tell. you where the stations. are he tells you exactly how these. things move and then the go fast video.

you see the [ __ ] thing turning. sideways and moving exactly how he. described it so if that's real if that. guy really was working on a retrieval. program and that was in. 1987. 86 what how long has this been going on. and and and if it has been going on for. a long time why would they tell us now. and I don't think they would I think. there's a long if it's real if it's a. real phenomenon that the highest levels. of the government are aware of I think. it's been kept under wraps for so long. it's almost impossible to it's like.

person coming out of the closet like. that you you're 58 years old I don't. want to do it I don't want to do it you. know it's like it's been so long you've. been lying it would cause so many. problems if you came out and told the. truth and I think it's very difficult. for people that have been lying to. hundreds of millions of people about one. of the biggest questions that humans. have ever had are we alone and what is. this all about and they've had the. answers for all this time telling us now. too hard well right I mean remember Mike.

Pompeo Trump's CIA director when he was. asked why they didn't release all the. JFK files he said because some of the. people involved are still. alive so that that is potentially a. plausible reason if we assume Mike. Pompeo was telling the truth about why. they didn't releas all the JFK sure well. especially all these people that have. been lying to Cong. and misallocating funds and are part of. these programs that are hidden programs. you could go to jail for that you could. lose your career if they blame one. person or blame a group of people and. they decide well it was Mike's idea.

right and Mike's in trouble Mike gets. brought in front of Congress and like. you're then they should do by the way. then they should do blanket amnesty I. agree that would be one way you solve. that probleme I think do that whe. whether it's KLA or Trump whoever gets. in there give them blanket amnesty and. let's let's [ __ ] tell people going on. because either it's [ __ ] or it's. real both of them are crazy the fact. that people been lying about UFOs. forever is crazy you you mentioned the. bobazar case and I don't know if it's. true or not but I think the ad homams.

like when you see them using ad hominum. character assassination you're like well. wait a second plenty of dirt bags um are. right about things sure many of them. worked in the FBI and CIA and the. military certainly plenty of people like. in other words everybody that worked on. secret weapons programs was like a Boy. Scout. excuse me you know so so the idea so the. the the character assassination and. theum for me is a bit of a tell that. there's something there's some other. agenda going on than just being like no. there's no information or does make.

sense and we know it we know it's so. effective because it the thing it does. it scares everybody else off so you end. up only the few people that are willing. to do this are people that are more. confident they've got a career they're. not worried like I'm I'm or they're just. people compell Rush's position is that. he just felt compelled to tell the truth. cuz this is too deep and too powerful to. be in the hands of these people it. shouldn't be that way it like people. should know look and that's why the. Whistleblower came forward is because.

Dave agush his courage I don't think. we're alone I don't know what it is but. I don't think we're alone well I don't. think we're alone in the universe I. think the only question is are we alone. on Earth I don't think we're alone here. I don't think I would allow us to be. alone I think I'd keep a close look on. us [ __ ] crazy. [ __ ] they're very. if we're not alone then the phenomenon. is just so. elusive or more advanced and doesn't. want us to be aware completely of its. presence and it's monitoring these. psychotic monkeys who have this like.

propensity to be constantly intoxicated. who are also in control of thermonuclear. weapons and are enforcing M magical. lines they drew in the dirt if we're not. alone here's the other thing I'll say if. we're not. alone then the reason that we don't know. what they are is because of them and not. strictly because of the US government I. think both because if they were if they. if they if we're not alone then and they. are doing all these things then they're. certainly more than capable of of making.

themselves known well I think one way to. ensure that you don't have to kill all. the people is to go to the people that. have the biggest weapons and say we're. here stop [ __ ] around leave us alone. and let them do whatever they want to do. but then what are they doing I mean. that's the thing if they are observing. us probably observing us just like we. observe uncontacted tribes we observe. gorillas we. observe but we observe but the other. thing like we observe remember the it's. interesting because the study of of e.

the study of gorillas was always part of. actually protecting gorillas sure well. maybe they're protecting us from what. ourselves warle War One Theory well the. reason why my club the rooms are named. fat man and little boy is cuz those. bombs that they dropped on Hiroshima and. Nagasaki that started a whole wave of. UFO sightings it did and I think that's. probably why I mean if just logically if. I was from another planet and I saw oh. we've just detected a nuclear bomb went.

off in on on whatever they call our. planet like let's go see what they're up. to and go check in on them they probably. visit infrequently just like scientists. when they're going looking for sloths. they visit infrequently they come we. just think of what we do tag them sure I. had a woman on here yesterday that works. with wolves um this is her book yeah. Diane Boyd uh woman Among Wolves her her. entire life has been tagging wolves. releasing them studying their behavior. finding out where they go and of course.

they would do that with us we do that. with Wolves of course they would do that. with us we do that with butterflies we. we study everything humans are. interested in other things and acquiring. information we're curious if you're. going to be the type of thing that can. figure out how to get from another. planet you're going to be really [ __ ]. curious the the Curiosity that is. required to allow you to figure out. Interstellar travel is pretty bananas. you got to be super [ __ ] curious and. I think they probably are I think.

they're probably aware that there's an. adolescent period that every intelligent. species goes through when it has the. power to blow itself up and it doesn't. have the wisdom to not do it because. there's clear examples right now every. day all over the world of people killing. people blowing people up you can see it. in the news every day with what's going. on in the Middle East what's going on in. Ukraine it's really clear that we have. the power but we don't have the wisdom. and so there's probably an evolutionary. period where this intelligent animal.

adapts and learns from its mistakes and. eventually gets past these base primate. instincts of greed and envy and lust and. anger and and retribution retaliation. gets past this territorial instinct. and recognizes that we are truly all. connected but it takes a long time. biologically and I think the thing that. helps it along is technology and I think. there's this Furious Battle of trying to. claim ground and control Technology's.

influence on people because we know it's. an overwhelming influence and we know. that the technology that has allowed. people to have truth maybe for the first. time in human history where anyone like. yourself can come on a podcast like this. an independent journalist and you can. reach millions and millions of people. that's never happened before and that's. changing things AI will change things. further and then sentient AI will change. things in impossible ways that we can't.

even imagine there's not a science. fiction author around that's right now. got an accurate idea of what a hundred. years from now looks like it's all 100%. guess work if you lived in 1500 1600. wasn't that much [ __ ] difference. everybody's got a musket everybody's on. a boat basically the same [ __ ] the the. difference between 2024 and 21 202 21. 2024 is going to be. bananas it's going to be impossible to. imagine what a time to be alive man it's.

an awesome time to be alive it's amazing. it's a golden age of Journalism too I. mean it's a great time to be in. journalism it's it's a great time for. real journalism because you're. confronted with so much [ __ ] and. propaganda and that people reject that. [ __ ] and propaganda and they're. turning towards real journalists so. thank you thank you Joe thank you for. being here thank you for everything that. you do you you are a a real source of. light in this confusing time that we. live in and I appreciate your courage. and I appreciate your writing and and. all the work that you put out I. appreciate you I appreciate you opening. up the conversation and the ways you.

have honestly there is no way that we. could the whole society could be having. this conversation about uaps if it. weren't for you true story ah true story. there's plenty of other podcast we still. be talking about it but thank you. appreciate it all right bye everybody. thanks. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].