Joe Rogan Experience #2172 - Sebastian Junger

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day okay as I was saying you're one of. the last the micans rocking that flip. phone yeah that's right I'm proud of it. did do you text people yeah yeah text do. you do the or it takes a bunch of times. to well it's t something called T9 it's. predictive texting so you know it gives. you a bunch of Alternatives you just.

have to do it all on a keypad with your. thumb rather than with an iPhone with. you have the full alphabet but I bet. that battery lasts like a week I don't. even travel with a charger man really. yeah I mean unless I'm gone for a week. but if I'm just gone for a couple days. and I don't have any long conversations. planned I I don't even bother wow yeah. all emailed everything's handled at home. all on the laptop right yeah plus chicks. day get man it's crazy. no like what kind of chicks are you. hanging around with Savages no one point.

I was I was at CNN waiting for a um to. go on and and these two young women kept. looking at me and that just like 10. years ago so I plaus plausibly could say. to myself well maybe I still got it. right like who knew like right and then. one of them noticed that I had notic. them looking at me and she goes oh. excuse me sir we were just we can't. believe that you have a flip phone so I. was like well that's the end of an era. 10 years ago wow yeah so 10 years ago. there's a few people out there that were. hanging my friend already still had a.

flip phone 10 years. ago yeah the only people I know now are. you and David tell so you're in good. company yeah yeah that's right it's cool. I'm telling you it's cool it's coming. back it's the next big thing well I know. a lot of people you know they switch to. what's called um I think it's called a. simple phone is that what it's called. Jamie what is that thing called what's. thatone no the little tiny the one. that's it just gives you nothing but. like text message I think you can get. music on it too I think it's called a.

simple phone it's like a like you ever. uh do you read on a tablet you know one. of those um Kindles I don't well the. great thing about those is they have. this uh white paper looking interface so. it doesn't look like a screen it looks. like paper right yeah yeah that's what. this little phone looks like and it's. the same sort of that's what it is light. phone yeah that thing so it has. basically the same thing as your phone. except you could text like a normal.

human and it'll play music and has notes. it gives you directions right that's not. bad I mean what I what I don't want is. to get sucked into the algorithms of. social media and all that garbage like. you don't want to get into the. algorithms on men you don't want I have. seen more people fall off buildings get. hit by cars get shot get stabbed and. just not participate in their life right. even if nothing bad happens you're still. I mean listen man I have two I have. young children I have a seven-year-old. girl and a four-year-old girl and we're. at the playground.

and I swear there are kids who fall and. I and I got to go kids I don't know I. got to go over and like dust them off. and comfort them because the mom or dad. doesn't even know cuz they're on their. phone yeah right that's not parenting I. mean like what what do you what do you. especially playgrounds man playgrounds. are still a little sketchy you know my. daughter when she was sick she broke her. arm at school on a playground really. actually she was a little older than six. she might have been eight but yeah it's. uh playgrounds are [ __ ] scary man you. know you're you're swinging around and.

you're playing and kids fall the wrong. way and and we're on the lower e Side in. New York city so it's sketchy in some. other ways too like you got you got to. be awake right you got to be alert and. just like and not only that but you had. kids like what are you doing like just. en enjoy this while you can cuz right. right is a Tik Tok video more. interesting than your exactly the human. that you made yeah exactly you guys made. humans they're the I mean that still. freaks me out to this day when they're.

mad at me you I'm like can't believe you. made you I I made you and now you're mad. at me like well how does that work like. yeah I have all girls so they're mad at. you for stuff like doesn't even make. sense like you're like okay how how how. old are they the youngest right now is. 14 oh wow so I got seven and four so. right so that thing's coming okay got it. yeah I got a 14 and 16 and then a grown. one got 27y old cuz I you know I've had. girlfriends that didn't were mad at me. for things that I didn't think made. sense and I like okay well that's all.

right that's cuz you're crazy and you. know whatever but actually like that. might be in my future yeah it's they're. just different it's just women and girls. are just different and me you know I. think the universe uh did me a solid by. giving me only daughters yeah me too. because you you have a different. perspective hanging like if I had a son. I'd be like I got to keep this [ __ ]. Savage out of jail I got to cuz I'm. passing my.

jeans that kid's got to go to the gym I. mean I got to get you into a Jiu-Jitsu. gym early like you you got to start. doing challenging things early and then. also you have to deal with the fact that. you have a successful father and that. puts a lot of pressure on a kid because. they you know a lot of kids they they. try to measure up to their parents or. compete with their fathers in some sort. of strange way so you have to mitigate. that in advance and tell them that. you're there for them you're on their. side you know it's like yeah there's a. lot with kids but with girls.

they're so different man I didn't I just. I don't think I understood until I. raised children I just didn't understand. how different they are yeah yep I listen. I agree and I'm I have two girls I'm I'm. thrilled I mean it's the best thing that. ever happened to me in my life that of. meeting my wife like that just. incredible and and partly because. they're girls and not boys I don't I. have nothing to learn from boys I. already know what that's about I am one. right and and but girls is just like. amazing it's just and and it wakes up.

some part of you that was dormant and. you didn't know was there it's just like. it's an amazing feeling Dave Chappelle. said to me once that not only did it. change the amount of love I have but it. changed my capacity for love absolutely. yeah absolutely yeah yeah that's a great. way to put it it's just a completely. different experience and I have friends. that are just avowed Bachelors I'm never. getting married I'm never having kids. [ __ ] that and I'm like I get it I I know. if you've had a bunch of bad. relationships you have bunch of people.

that are annoying and there constant. drama and dilemas and all these. different things but man you're missing. out on a different different phase of. Life a different experience of life. that's just yeah it's so humbling but. you got to re meet the right person. right I mean if you're if you're not. with the right person I imagine being on. top of that that's hard enough just on. its own on top of that oh yeah parenting. with the wrong person must be a freaking. nightmare yeah you've got [ __ ] going. to dinner with the wrong person's a. nightmare nightmare.

just dealing with nonsense yeah. especially if you're not the type of. person that handles nonsense so well. yeah you know it's just well what I do. um I for a variety of family reasons I. Flatline like if someone's coming at me. with something that doesn't make sense. and they're really. upset I just go I just sort of. emotionally Flatline I get super. rational and and just zero Kelvin like. nothing right and which is a a kind of a. good place to be because it's not. escalatory yeah but it's all but I've.

come to find out that's also exceedingly. provocative to do to someone who's upset. oh so they try to like get a response. out of you yeah and they think that your. nonresponse means you don't care ooh. that's a problem and then you're just so. screwed that's also a problem with. emotional manipulation where you realize. that this escalation of emotions is. really just to inside a reaction it's. not the real feelings that's right which. is why it's so exaggerated and I think. I'm doing the relationship a favor by.

yeah I was like somebody's got to say s. sane in this rub right right or it's. going to the cops are getting you know. whatever like so I'm like all right I'm. going to Flatline the only way to do. this CU you're making me really angry. right now is to Flatline and feel. nothing I'm going to do us a favor by. doing that I'll be super rational and. calm and blah blah blah but I didn't. realize like that's completely. inflammatory also in a different way so. you're there really isn't a good choice. until that person figures out how to. emotionally regulate yeah the good. choice is get the [ __ ] out of Dodge a.

good choice stay rational and calm as. you can until you can abandon that. relationship yeah unless that person has. a like just a complete understanding of. what went wrong and apologizes and. realizes like oh I'm I'm being [ __ ]. crazy I knew a guy who is um I won't. name him his older brother they're both. sort of pretty well-known writers and. his older brother was in a you know bad. a bad relationship of that sort and they. were walking through I think it was.

Paris they were visiting Paris and they. all their stuff was at the hotel this is. before smart cell phones this is in like. the early 90s late 80s something like. that and they're walking through Paris. and they stopped to look she stopped to. look at that some clothing in a you know. in a shop front you know the window. through the window and it took him some. steps to realize that she had stopped. and he had kept going and he looked at. her and he looked down the street he was. like this is my chance and he just. started sprinting oh my God sprinted all. the way to the hotel paid the bill left.

500 bucks on the bed threw his stuff in. his suitcase out of there straight to. the airport and that was the last time. they ever saw each other wow was that. bad it was that bad the pressure that he. must have been feeling that allowed him. to make that decision like he must have. just been in hell and I don't think he. was just a dick he might have also been. a dick but I think what one of the. things that was going on CU I've you. know I've been in relationships that. were pretty tough. is that you can't even have the breakup.

conversation because it goes full. nuclear right so you don't you don't. know what to do right and you got to. flee I support him I support him that. just I mean if he's a rational guy then. he's never done that before that seems. like if that's his move that maybe maybe. you're you know maybe it's you and then. he and then right right and then he met. the right gal and they had a family and. he's a great dad you know blah blah blah. so it's not like he was just a. congenital [ __ ] right like but that. was his move in a Split Second Split.

Second I'm out of here crazy and no cell. no cell phones of course so there's not. like now you just get you you know you'd. be getting speed dialed over and over. and over again right wow so he never saw. her again no oh my God oh my God that's. wild boy it must have been a mess I love. I love that moment where he looked back. like oh she's oh she's in front of the. store and he just ran I have a I have a. 20 yard Head Start I'm that is so crazy. that's such.

a I don't support it but I get it yeah. like I've never been that bad in that. bad of a situation but I've known people. that have yeah you just got to sometimes. you just got to do what you have to do. to stay alive yeah yeah yeah that's. right like literally because like bad. relationships and B and bad friendships. and bad jobs and bad a lot of things can. they'll rob you of your your peace they. create anxiety which creates like. physical.

problems your body's under stress your. cortisol levels get jacked up that [ __ ]. with your sleep which [ __ ] with your. health like you're literally robbing. your life I have a couple of buddies who. I love um who are bipolar and I lost one. of them he killed himself and it's. tragic but the other guy is okay and. they're bipolar and you know having a. relationship with someone's bipolar is. almost impossible no matter how much you. love them like it really presents a. complicated Challenge and if you're.

having a romantic relationship with. someone who's bipolar which I've done. it's like a thousand times harder from. like a buddy right and and that was you. know that you know I I've had a couple. of those and it is really in some ways. the most painful experiences of my life. like and and I've so that was the you. know sort of sprinting from the shop. front window kind I didn't do quite that. but close like cuz that if someone's. bipolar that's like it's all so volatile. that's sometimes your only your only. choice yeah yeah the bipower thing is.

wild because if your mind works well you. think well get tell that person to get. it together you know but makes no sense. right you're not not making sense honey. it doesn't make sense but like but you. don't understand like their brains it's. like the chemicals in their brain are. all [ __ ] up everything's all [ __ ] up. it's they can't it's almost impossible. to get it together it's like you being. on fire and someone's saying stay calm. like how the [ __ ] are you going to stay. calm while you're on fire exactly right. uh with lithium.

is that it is that the move that's it is. there anything else that works for those. folks I it saved two people that I know. of that I really loved really close to. um one one guy and and a woman that I. dated who I later found out she. stabilized on lithium what is the. downside of taking the lithium oh I. don't know you you you're emotionally. flat you you put on weight you know all. kinds of stuff all kinds of stuff that's. better than suicide but you know it's. not it's not good and and and you know. bipolar um you know it destroys it. destroys relationships I mean it's like.

it really it's a it's a very very tough. deal yeah and often the result of trauma. right I mean in both cases of these. people that I care about they. traumatized as children you know and and. so it often produces that terrible. Behavior with that's then just fulfills. itself your whole life it's absolutely. tragic the crazy thing is they don't. even know like some people it's not even. trauma they just get it so there's some. neurochemical stuff yeah but trauma is a. known pretty correlate to like bipolar. as an adult like the the crazy thing.

about mental illness is that it's just. no one can really tell what's going on. in your head and it's up to you to talk. to your psychiatrist or whatever and try. to explain it and they have to try to. like make a map of the territory but no. one knows how you think about things. other than you and are you an honest. reporter on your own experience so if. you're telling telling your shrink about. the fight you had with your wife the. other night are you really being an. honest right you know and what bipolar. people do.

they are so I think on some level so. fearful and well Def and defended. psychologically defended that they have. a very hard time saying yeah my wife's. mad at me but on the other hand I was. kind of a dick and you know they can't. do that it's all sort of victim. centered and then and and the shrink. doesn't I'm hopefully they see through. this stuff but they don't necessarily. know that that's not true right well. there's so many medications that get. prescribed to People based on the person. reporting a Feeling that you can't like.

see in a test you know like if someone. says like if you have uh you know some. sort of a disease they say oh we found. that you're sick with you know syphilis. whatever it is and we're going we're. going to give you this medicine and. we've got this figured out we tested you. we know what it is right with your mind. you know like if someone says they're. depressed like okay what does that mean. what does that mean there's no. measurement there's nothing you know. like so they have to say okay let's try. a little of this or try a little of that. and to figure out what it is and and you.

there are some things that are legit bad. really really tough things to have like. uh borderline and uh I had my my my. buddy I mean he was my closest friend he. was my brother right and and he's the. best man at my at my first wedding and. we were in war you in B we were in. Bosnia together during the Civil War and. just brothers right and amazing. brilliant funny funny man and um but he. he he was a lifelong depressive and part.

of his Brilliance was rooted in he he. says like in his depression like it may. give him a certain kind of mind and he. was he um but he he was finally. diagnosed with skitso affective disorder. and one of the problems with skizo. effective is that they reject the. diagnosis right they're like no no no. you all you everyone you have it has it. wrong I'm fine and I have no problem and. it's you guys that are don't understand. what I'm up against. right and so it's very hard to treat.

because they like borderlines they. reject the idea narcissism disorder is. another one they reject the idea there's. anything wrong with them so it's really. really hard to. treat it's crazy when someone's um. weakness is actually like their strength. like in their career yeah you know which. is a thing with some creative types like. there's this guy Richard Jenny he's like. one of my all-time favorite comedians. and he killed himself and everyone who. didn't know him was baffled they were.

like that guy's at the top of his game. that guy's everything we all want to be. right he was so good that I went to this. club in New York in Upstate New York or. in Long Island rather East Side comedy. club and this dude uh Peter who is the. uh MC was depressed because he worked. with Richard Jenny all. weekend and he was like he did a new. hour every night he did a new two two. hours Friday two different hours two.

different hours Saturday for most of us. we have one hour right like while we're. on the road we have one hour we tone. that thing down we tighten it up we. [ __ ] we we we edit it we get it to. It's Like a Rock in one hour this. [ __ ] destroyed with four. different hours on a weekend and Peter. was like I should quit comedy like I. this this is a real that's a real. comedian I'm a [ __ ] poser this [ __ ]. and that guy killed himself yeah well my. John my buddy like he I mean he he.

wasn't a professional comedian but he. could have been right I mean he had that. sort of unbelievable Brilliance and just. devastating humor and just a crazy I. mean his he could just he could just. sort of sit there and just riff right I. mean he' just like and he would go for. an hour and everyone would be like. pissing themselves on the floor and he. just on and on he went right just This. brilliant riff that had never been heard. before would never be heard again and it. just flowed through him and and but he.

was a you know life I mean as as a. teenager he he said you know um he said. to his mom he said I know eventually I'm. going to kill myself he knew that as a. teenager oh my God yeah and he held it. off a long time he had a family to to. two little girls and he was like he. killed himself while his girls were. young yeah and you know of course it's. hard not to say John what the [ __ ] right. like you kidding and um but then. realized no no no that just shows how.

much pain he was. in yeah they just can't take it at all. they can't take it and they're worried. what they're going to do with that pain. are they a threat to their family are. they can they trust themselves right. there you know I think they start to. worry about that there's an amazing. story not that I know that this was. where John was at but it could have been. um there's an amazing story from um The. Iliad and the Odyssey um of Ajax ax who. threw himself on his sword right and. that the the the um the the the.

conventional understanding is that he. was Dishonored by. Agamemnon and some way that I can't. remember and he couldn't after the. trauma of combat and the siege of Troy. and he lost his best friend etc etc he. couldn't stand the dishonor he had PTSD. right in sort of contemporary terms and. he threw himself on his sword and I sort. of looked into the story a little bit. because it didn't quite I was like wow. that's a lot of Honor right I mean. that's like he had a family he had. children that's why would you so what it. turned out was that he had he was.

walking on a. Hillside and he in his mind he thought. he was attacked by the enemy and he drew. his sword and he killed them all and. then he realized he had killed a herd of. sheep whoa in his trauma he had mistaken. sheep for the enemy and I I have no. proof of this I've never heard you know. whatever like I'm I'll Stand Down if I'm. wrong but it occurred to me that what he. thought at that moment was if I can kill.

a herd of sheep because I think they're. Trojans my family's not safe no one's. safe no one's safe right and I'm a. warrior I'm a protector my job is to. defend and protect and if I think a hert. of sheep our our enemy Warriors like I. am not safe for my loved ones to be. around and he said to his half brother. please take care of my family and then. he went down to the beach he buried the. the the the um the handle of his sword. in the sand at an angle and then he ran.

and he threw himself on the sword and. killed himself oh that's a rough way to. go yeah but if you're worried you're. going to kill the mo things that are. most precious to you how can you not. also when you're talking about childhood. trauma imagine childhood trauma in a. time where people fought with swords oh. my God what did you see absolutely you. know what did you see when you were a. baby yeah what did you see your whole. life people getting beheaded and gutted. and you know and then you're off at War. war and just yeah and when you come back.

from war you know you're not coming back. from like Landing rounds at 500 met. against the enemy position right you're. I mean you're coming back with you know. people's blood on your yeah I mean. covering other men's blood right and. entrails and whatever else I mean the. ilot is it it's like a medical textbook. it's like then he sliced his abdomen. open and his entrails fell out and he. staggered away holding his entrails and. then this and then that I mean it's. completely bloody right visceral in the. literal sense a viscera right like. complet complely bloody if that's what.

combat was like and I'm sure for the you. know Native Americans you know here as. well like it must have been unbelievably. traumatizing to the guys who did it. unbelievably yeah I mean one onone. combat with swords must be so insane. yeah and arrows flying and cannonballs. and yeah now they were hunting cultures. like in in for example in North America. they were hunting cultures and they were. used to you know gutting animals and the. gut spilling out and you know beheading.

you know whatever like I mean they were. used they were used to that you know. with animals with hunting they were used. to Blood and Guts literally Blood and. Guts so maybe the transition to Warfare. is a is less of a distance to cross than. it is for a kid who grew up in a suburb. of Boston and then suddenly he's in. Afghanistan and you know it gets. intimate and bloody you can the you know. the the TR the psychic distance that. that person has to travel is quite far. it maybe not quite doable that's a way.

to that's a good way to put it the. psychic distance that one has to travel. right but just I I I think you get. accustomed to what's normal right but I. think every human being that existed. back then was probably in this like. heightened state right of urgency and. fear because they had experienced sword. fights right that's right that's right. yeah and then also no distractions. you're staring up at the stars every. night yeah and you're waking up in the. morning to sword fight again okay that's.

right Jesus Christ that's right no. Instagram nothing nothing stories are. being told by the fire everyone's on a. flip. phone if you had a flip phone back then. man you'd run everything like look I'm. going to call the General yeah exactly. right now from the Tren going like what. from the. trench yeah what did kids do I mean. these [ __ ] kids are filming things. now which is really crazy the footage. that you get out of Ukraine right now is. so nuts oh my God it's insane so nuts.

cuz it's high resolution cell phone. camera and GoPro video footage it's. absolutely crazy yeah yeah yeah you know. as a person who's been there um you know. like when you did Restrepo and you know. you've been to Wars what is it like for. you to see these new ones emerge and I. mean I've always hoped that there's. going to be come a time in our culture. in my life where not going to be. involved in any this [ __ ] anymore we the.

human race or the us we the human race. particularly the US well I mean here's. the thing like I have um you know I have. some sort of like peace oriented friends. pacifist friends uh um I mean there's a. there's a sort of two different flavors. right there's a sort of a conservative. isolationism and a liberal pacifism and. they wind up ironically in sort of the. same place is like war is bad we don't. want any part of it you know like the. it's the convergence is sort of. interesting politically but. so the the sort of leftwing people that.

I know are sort of Vietnam era um PA. pacifists right and and. um so in my mind I'm like listen you. know if war is. bad avoiding it isn't the only you know. there there is a moral case to be made. for say in Bosnia which was stopped by a. very brief NATO intervention and you. know you could make a moral case for you. know drop a few bombs the war stops and. then the human life is preserved yeah. you can make you can make that cas case. but but you know basically the the for I.

think for for say for Ukraine. peacefulness. works and it's a wonderful thing to. Aspire to sort of as long as no one. invades. you right right and and if you if you. knew that no one would invade you and. and you're warlike anyway you're an. [ __ ] right right but what you have to. do any society from a a you know a a. group group of like Comanche Warriors in.

in you know the the Hill Country around. Austin in 1840 or Ukraine or the us or. Israel or any any Nation right you have. to figure out how to be a peaceloving. society that can also defend itself and. that's really and then if you're going. to defend yourself what is your. obligation to defend your your your. allies or your friends or even just on a. strategic level um countries where if. they fall then eventually The Dominoes.

wind up with you know and I don't know. the answers to that but that to me is. like the the the the Strategic and moral. question it's like where is that where. is that line where you have to defend. something because eventually you're. going to be end up defending. yourselves yeah it just when does the. human race ever get out of the cycle it. just individuals as human beings are. capable of coexisting in harmony but. when we get into groups right there's. always something it's like it's unavoid. and if any if you I mean we've talked.

about this a bunch of times but if you. ever ask people in your lifetime do you. think there'll be no war no one says yes. right well there's always the. possibility of a bad actor that's like. you know what I want those oil fields I. want those diamond mines I want whatever. like there's all and you know we've been. that that guy too sometimes right and um. you know you're you're a strong jacked. up guy who knows how to fight and if the. world contained only peaceful men. you wouldn't need to be you might want.

to be but you wouldn't need to be right. but you walking down the street you know. in your mind like I it comes I can. defend my family and myself with my. hands like and I need to know that I can. I'm just reading into your mind like I. don't obviously I don't know how you. think but I'm guessing that somewhere in. your mind you're like I can take care of. business if my family's threatened and. and there's there's a security in that. and if you just knew for a fact that. there were no predatory people out there. not one you wouldn't need to be right.

but that's not we're social primates and. that's not the world that we evolved in. and it's not it's never going to happen. yeah um yeah unless something changes. something really big right and it's not. going to change overnight no right I. mean we have the DNA we have we have the. cultural wiring that we have you know. it's it's a um so you know all the. democracies which are you know tend. towards sort of fairness and and. peacefulness because it's frankly good. for business right war is not.

particularly good for the stock market. unless you are Ron right for some. business some some businesses absolutely. but for this the array of economic. Enterprise in the world like War you. know War doesn't War doesn't do the. economies much good overall and um the. uh um so the the the question is like. how do you so democracies are invested.

in stability in Market stability they're. invested in it because they. disproportionately benefit from it right. Iraq under Hussein was not. disproportionately benefiting from. Market stability because it was an. oppressive it was a dictatorship right. and the the economy sucked and there was. a ton of corruption right but. democracies are quite they really do. benefit from stability but all of those. democracies are defended by really. robust militaries right and if and if. they. weren't right they would get run like in. half a generation right well that's what.

scares the [ __ ] out of me about today. because I think with with AI and with. weapons technology advancing in the same. exponential rate as cell phone. technology and computer technology is. we're getting to this really weird place. where it's not just mutually assured. destruction because of nuclear weapons. it's like it's whoever presses the. button first wins right and so you have. this. like if you can completely disable a.

nation's Army almost. instantaneously right and then take over. their cities or bomb their cities like. instantaneously it's just we're relying. on Good Nature right the the. understanding that this is a horrible. thing to do to humanity to to pull that. trigger first right well there's also. the sort of what do you what what. happens when the dog catches the tire. right like so if Russia had I mean what. the ukrainians I mean all the politics. and whatever aside just on this on a.

military level what the what the. ukrainians were able to. do you know quite outmatched by the by. the Russians what the Afghan what the. what the Taliban were able to do with. the US the muine against the Russians. all of this like what the what the. ukrainians were able to do against the. Russians is quite extraordinary the. Russians really should have taken. Ukraine in a few weeks right and had. they that would have been what that was. what everyone predicted I didn't think. that was going to happen but that was. what everyone predicted didn't happen. and um the motivation to defend your.

home is always far greater than the than. the motivation to invade someone else's. home just for the 19-year-old male like. that the motiv and motivation is as you. know I'm sure from MMA is like super. important in outcome right and um so but. had the Russians done it had they taken. had they just Blitz cged all the way. through Ukraine seized it then they. would have what what they would have had. is the huge huge huge and costly problem.

of um maintaining. order uh in in a nation of 40 million. people 40 million resentful people who. did not want to be governed by Outsiders. like don't try this at home right I mean. this is and so I think yeah so you can. take out say you had a magic you know. electromagnetic pulse that took out. everything in the I mean I'm just. bullshitting here took out everything. that the US military relies on to. communicate and to function you just.

Zapped it out of existence and invade it. right the Russians took the you know. east of the Mississippi the Chinese took. west of the Mississippi or whatever. whatever it might be then you got to run. this place and that's when you really. have a tactical problem Township by. Township Mountain by Mountain and then. it's and then your electromagnetic pulse. actually doesn't serve you that well and. you know the the Afghans I mean the. Taliban didn't defeat us they just. outlasted us until we got tired of being. there and didn't want to pay the.

bill. yeah so. you're what what I when I got reached. out to uh about you was that you had. gotten through a near-death experience. and uh I really didn't want to read into. it at all I just wanted to ask you about. it sure so something happened you had an. aneurism that burst inside internally is. that what it is yeah so I mean the short. you know the the medical description is. I had an undiagnosed aneurysm which is a.

ballooning of an artery um at a weak. spot like so I mean arteries can dilate. to get more blood flow but an aneurysm. is like one specific spot that for one. reason or. another uh is weak and it starts to sort. of give way and it'll bubble outwards. and as that bubble grows bigger and this. takes decades it's a very slow process. right I have a basically I have a. ligament in the wrong place and that set. in. a sort of vascular problem that resulted.

in aneurysm and they don't they don't. hurt there's no way to diagnose I mean. unless you scan someone's abdomen I've. always been super healthy and so. throughout my life I just never had any. reason for an abdominal scan right I'm. fifth fit healthy male right a fit. healthy person and so I just never. needed that that look inside me so no. one saw the aneurysm growing right and. um so at at at some point point the. artery wall gets stretched so far that.

it will rupture it'll it'll just burst. and now you have an arterial bleed so. you know what that you know if someone. shoots you in the femoral or stabs you. in the abdomen and you have an arterial. bleed you know your life is measured in. minutes or whatever or hours and if. someone does you the favor of stabbing. you in the abdomen and severing your. pancreatic artery which is the artery. that ruptured on me now it's a little. artery this you know thickness of a.

number two pencil it's not a big deal. but if you're it's arterial blood right. I mean you don't don't stop that [ __ ]. you're going to die right and so if. someone just like stabbed you in the. abdomen you rushed to the hospital the. doc is no problem the doctor if you're. still alive they'll transfuse you the. doctors know exactly where to sort of. put their finger to plug the leak it's. no problem the problem with the internal. hemorrhage an abdominal Hemorrhage is. the doctors have no idea where it is and. your abdomen is basically a big bowl of. spaghetti right I mean right and it's.

filling up with blood and they have to. find what where it's leaking yeah cuz. the blood you know if you're stabbed the. blood's going out of your body onto the. kitchen floor with an internal. hemorrhage it all stays in your abdomen. so I um it happened we were in a it was. during covid and we are in a remote area. an old house that we own at the end of a. dead end dirt road in. Massachusetts and it's so remote there's. no cell phone service the phone lines. are old and they short out when it rains.

and we had my wife and I had a little. bit of babysitting we at the time a. three-year-old and a six-month old we. had a little baby little bit of. babysitting from the teenage girls that. lived lived down the road that we knew. the family and they so they came over to. give us a few hours and my wife and I. went out to this cabin that's even. deeper in the woods and and you know. Paradise basically right and um so we're. out there and in mids sentence I felt. this sort of pain in my abdomen like ooh. what was that right like not kidney.

stone pain but worse than indigestion. right and so I sort of Twisted and turn. to see if I could work it out you know. and then nothing helped and then I and. then I finally stood up maybe I can walk. it out and as soon as I stood up the. floor just reeled away from me and I. almost fell over but what was happening. is my blood pressure was just like. tanking cuz I was losing all my blood. into my abdomen and my body hadn't. compensated yet so I was just. like like like my head was reeling right.

so I sat back down when I said was. something I never thought I'd ever have. reason to say to my wife I said um. something's wrong I'm going to need. help right and you don't want to ever. have to say those words right and you're. fit I'm fit it never crossed my mind. that I would ever have to say that. unless someone shoots me or something. right like but not in my life I sto War. reporting I you know I gave all that. gamble you know gambling with your life.

I gave it all up I had a family we're in. this beautiful spot like are you kidding. it can come after you here too right who. knew right. so um she dragged me through the woods. you know I have my arm around her. shoulder I'm sort of St like a stumbling. drunk right and she's sort of dragging. me through the woods and she gets me to. the car and um puts me in the passenger. seat of the car and um and you know were. a 1hour transport to the.

hospital right and I'm bleeding I'm. losing a pint of blood every 10 or 15. minutes you know my wife didn't know. this and thank God I didn't either but I. was literally a human. hourglass right and she ran she put me. in the passenger seat of the car and I'm. lying there now I'm starting to go blind. right which is one of the things that. happens when you lose too much blood is. you go you go blind she ran into the. house the sort of electric white just. took over the world and that's all I. could see electric white that's the if. you bleed out that's the last thing. you'll see and um and then darkness.

which is what I finally got to was the. darkness but um so she ran into the. house told the girls the teenage girls. one of them ran out the phone line. didn't work but the girl one of them was. able to get one bar of signal like in. one spot on the driveway like one bar. and she called the ambulance and the. ambulance guys. came and um you go into something called. compensatory shock if you're bleeding. out and the body senses in its in its. miraculous way it senses that um you.

know there's a five alarm fire going on. here and we got to tighten our tighten. our game right so it shut literally. shuts down vascular like blood flow to. parts of the body you don't need like. your legs and your arms your skin and it. sort of Hoards the blood in your chest. your abdomen your chest and your brain. around your heart right you know those. things go you're dead so it it collects. the blood around there and keeps it. there through muscular tension ention. right you don't know you're doing this. but what happens is your blood pressure.

goes back up and suddenly you're sort of. back in the world and I was no longer. going in and out of Consciousness I was. suddenly I could see again the ambulance. guys get there and they're like how you. doing I'm like well you know belly pain. but I don't want to be a complainer here. I'm feeling a little better you know. maybe blah blah blah my wife and this is. why there's a famous statistic married. men live longer my wife it's like you. know what cuz they were going to leave. me they were like oh it's a hot day. drink some water you probably just. dehydrate oh [ __ ] yeah my wife is like.

no he's going to the hospital I watched. him he was he was in and out of. Consciousness he he couldn't stand up he. was going blind like what's it take yeah. guys what's it take to get a guy to the. emergency room so anyway they took me my. body stayed in compensatory shock. for that hour and that it took and um. but I was losing blood losing blood. losing blood and then I got to the. hospital and my body couldn't hold. compensatory shock anymore and it I went.

straight into end stage hemorrhagic. shock which is you're dead in 10 or 15. minutes right and I went off a [ __ ]. cliff right as we got to the hospital. and I they estimate my blood pressure. was 60 over 40 which is like Rock Bottom. I they estimated I lost like two-thirds. of my blood if you lose more than 2/3. even if they transfuse you and fill top. you off with you know full complement of. blood they pump it into you if you lose.

that much blood there's complications. that happen with coagulants and all. kinds of things like. that that will kill you so you can. people can die of blood loss with all. with a full complement of blood that. they've gotten from. transfusions just because this chemical. process gets initiated and they can't. reverse it right and that starts to. happen when you've lost two-thirds of. your blood which is right where I was at. right 10 minutes later I'd have been.

dead and um so um they rushed me into. the trauma Bay and um the doctors knew. immediately what was going on and uh. they one doctor had this sort of large. gauge needle and he and he started and. he asked my permission I had no idea I. was dying right and he asked my. permission to stick it through my neck. into my jugular which didn't look like a. lot of fun and I was like really is this. is is this totally necessary like do we. really need to do this I was like why in.

case there's an emergency he was like no. this is the emergency like I had no idea. right I'm I'm 10 minutes from dead I. have no idea I'm dying zero right thank. God because I would have been terrified. and I would have been thinking of my my. my family and I would you know I mean. you know like yeah you don't want that. right and. um so he said this is the emergency I. was like well if you say so you go go. ahead have at it right so while he's. working on prepping my neck. um uh and it did actually didn't hurt at.

all right so if you ever have to have. this done don't worry about it but um. they uh W I'm lying there and he's sort. of working on my neck getting it took. long it it felt like it took longer than. it probably actually did but um while. I'm there all of a sudden and I have to. stop and say I'm an atheist I'm a. lifelong atheist I'm a rationalist I'm. not. spiritual I'm not m a Mystic I'm not woo. woo I like I'm nothing right my dad was.

an atheist and a physicist I have to say. all this because of what's coming and. I'm still an atheist by the way but so. all of a sudden I sensed below me and to. my. left this black pit opened up this black. abyss like this infinite black. void and I was getting pulled into it. and it's not like Darkness had taken. over the world the world was here I. could see the doctors I could see I was. talking to them right I'm here I am but.

the darkness was contained in this hole. that was underneath underneath me and I. was getting pulled into it right I. didn't know I was dying but I had this. like this instincts of like a wounded. animal like if I go into the pit the. infinitely dark pit I'm not coming out. right like I just sensed like don't go. in there because you're not coming back. right and I started to panic because I. felt myself getting drawn in right. and then my father my dead father.

appeared above me and to my left now. there's a whole body of inquiry of ndes. near-death experiences and all I didn't. know anything about this stuff right I. didn't know anything about it it didn't. interest me I'm not culturally prepped. for anything like that I'm not Christian. I didn't see Angels like I'm just I'm a. zero in that regard right there's my. dead father above me right he been dead. eight years I love him. uh but I was not happy to see him right.

I was like I was shocked I mean l i was. dad what what are you doing here like. and there he was and he was and he. communicated to me and so what I saw C. isn't quite the right verb but I don't. think there there doesn't exist the. right verb I sensed. slaw him and it was his Essence his. energy his presence right it's not like. I see you right it's like oh there he. right wasn't with that Clarity in some. ways it was with a deeper Clarity.

because it was his Essence right and. there he was his presence was right. there and above me and to my left it was. like quite specific and he communicated. to me again not with words but with some. manner that I understood that I can't. quite explain what it was but basically. the idea was you don't have to fight it. you can come with me I'll take care of. you it's okay it's okay don't be scared. right I'll take care of you. I was.

horrified I was appalled I was offended. I was like you're dead why would I want. to go with you you're dead you're the. opposite of what I am why would why. would I possibly want to go with you and. be dead with you because I'm alive with. my family right now like I'm not going. anywhere with you like get out of here. and I said to the. doctor you have to hurry I'm going right. now I didn't know where I was going but. I knew I was sort of. outbound and once that happened I was.

there's no inbound and I sensed that I. said you got to hurry you're losing me. right. now so what' they. do well they transfuse me they stabilize. me with three units of blood eventually. I needed 10 units which is a full. complement of but like and so let me. just pause for a moment and say please. donate blood like everybody who's. listening I'm alive my daughters have a. father because 10 people who I'll never. know donated their blood and when you.

donate blood you are literally allowing. another person to live and one day you. might live because someone else donated. blood and it's it you know doctors can't. manufacture that [ __ ] like if you donate. blood it takes an hour it doesn't hurt. and your body will replace it in a. couple of weeks it's the ultimate free. lunch and I think it's quicker than a. couple weeks I think it's pretty quick. it's pretty quick yeah it it um yeah. yeah I mean to get up to 100% it's I. think it's a little long but whatever it.

doesn't it doesn't matter right it's. like we're talking about human life here. and if you want to be part of something. greater than yourself it's blah blah. blah all these things that we all kind. of want like how do I participate you. know like no nobody needs me I'm not. part of anything I feel lonely give. blood man then you'll be part of. something amazing right and you might so. I give blood regularly so at any rate. there's my pitch but um so they they. they they stuff some blood in me through. my jugular. I stabilized and they brought me to the.

Interventional the cath La lab the. Interventional Radiology suite and what. Interventional Radiology is it's a. freaking Miracle right like 20 years ago. i' been dead right I mean even the. advances are so fast they're so. miraculous so what they do is they put. you on something called a fluoroscope. which is basically sees into you with. x-rays but it's x-ray video right so. they can see in real time. what's going on in your body and then. they pop a hole into your femoral from.

your right groin and they insert a. catheter into it which is a flexible. rubber tube or wire and because of the. way these the heads of these catheters. are designed they can they have Little. Shepherd's Crooks and little curves and. all this stuff and they can navigate. through your venous system through the. twists and turns and they can get that. thing almost anywhere in your body and. then once they're there they can pop a. coil and plug a leaf or they can inflate. and put in a stent or whatever they can. do miraculous things they can inject.

radioactive Dy and then they see where. it goes and they turn on the fluoroscope. and then they can see ah the the Dy is. leaking into the abdomen from here. here's where the leak is it's amazing. what they can do right and so they they. popped the they popped the entry into my. Emeral and then threaded a catheter. and threaded a catheter up through my. veinous system. and because of this ligament that's in.

the wrong place the my my the arteries. and my abdomen are very distorted right. and they're tortuous they're called. tortuous and they couldn't get the. catheter through these twists and turns. right and um they couldn't get it to the. site of the bleed which they knew where. it was right and they couldn't get the. catheter there the alternative if you. can't fix it with the catheter. is you pull your gear out and you send.

the guy to the. O and you do this. crazy like Race Against Time that you. cut them. open and then all the one of the reasons. the blood loss slows down is that. there's so much blood in your abdomen. that there's back pressure and it keeps. it slows down the blood loss from your. artery because now it's trying to flow. into a full container right and it. doesn't leak as fast right so as soon as. you open up the abdomen you can imagine. what happens I mean you guys are blood.

and you know you got to like push the. organs aside and it's this desperate. search for the bleed before you bleed. out and as you can probably guess it. doesn't go well very often right so it's. not quite a death sentence but if you go. into the o with an abdominal. bed you know they they bring your wife. in to say goodbye to you basically. before you do that they don't tell you. or her that but that's what they're. doing and that's what they would have. done with my wife who find who got to. the hospital the ER doctor was like you. better come now and uh so so at one.

point I mean agonizing pain because I've. got all this free floating blood against. my kidneys and my liver and my spleen. and just agon it's like kidney stones. right it's just I'm in agony and they. can't sedate me because my vitals are. too low right so I'm conscious through. all this and I'm watching the doctors. and at one point I watched one of the. doctors just sort of give shake his head. and shrug was basically like well we. tried this isn't working and the other.

doctor nodded and he's like yeah we. tried. and it was the first moment where I. realized oh my God I didn't realize this. is We're Playing for Keeps right now. this might not turn turn out well I. might not be going home I couldn't. believe what I'd. sayen and then the first Doctor Who's. This brilliant Interventional. radiologist named Dr Phil dski he said. Saved My Life. um you have in your mind a special.

relationship with someone a man who or. anyone who is saved your life it's a. very particular relationship and that. I've never been in that position before. and uh. so D Browski. said La we can try one last thing let's. try going through his left wrist and so. what because of your vasculature like. the left wrist allows a different point. of attack you come down down from above. instead of coming up from below and you.

don't have to go through all those. twists and turns and um he had to get. through a problematic spot in my Celiac. artery that was impeded by the ligament. that's in the wrong place well it was a. lot of problems right and you had to be. like a super highlevel IR guy to even. think of this much less do it like I was. told the very very few few. Interventional radiologist would even. think of doing this right but he was he. was a genius right so. the other doctor said I like the way you. think and I watched them put a um.

catheter in my into my left uh my left. wrist I still I know longer have a pulse. in that wrist because it messes up the. artery and. um and they did it they got the thing to. the place like they got they got the. catheter to the bleed they popped a coil. in there it blocked the blocked the. artery blocked the leak and um then they. sent me to the ICU they knocked me me. out sent me to the ICU I remember seeing. my wife very briefly afterwards and I.

held her hand and and um that sent me. off and I woke up in the ICU the next. morning and so the blood in your abdomen. do they drain it does your body absorb. it no no they I guess maybe they do. sometimes I know your body absorbs it. wow yep six pints of blood like and you. know I could feel it in me I mean it. didn't feel good right you know and. you're sort of discolored I mean it's. like it's awful not a good look. right now. now. the you keep uh saying you're an.

atheist what is what exactly how do you. everybody sort of defines that. differently I feel like a lot of. atheists are actually agnostic more than. they're atheists because an atheist is. someone who just doesn't believe I don't. believe what do you think the experience. with your father was the his presence. well that's right the billion dooll. question right so yeah. I'm an atheist in part because I I.

respect. the um the highest intentions of. religion too. much to take them lightly now there's a. plenty of religious expression which is. not at a very high level which I find. even offensive and destructive but at. its at its best like journalism like. psychology like everything at its best. right it's a very. Noble uh thing that that helps people.

live with more dignity and less fear and. blah blah blah right so I mean I get it. so so I take that stuff really literally. and so for. me believing in God is an active thing. right and and really it's not like that. you found God it's God found you like oh. my God suddenly God was in my life right. and and it's like when you fall in love. you you can't choose to fall in love.

right it's an overwhelming feeling that. you can't. resist and if it's not you're not really. in love bro you might have married Betty. but you're not in love with Betty right. but when you you know when you have that. experience of overwhelming love like oh. my. God I'm in love with that person I got. to be with them my life is with them. like that's love finding you you didn't. manufacture it and you didn't um make an. executive decision well I'm in love with. Betty now and we're getting married I. mean people used to do that and it just. isn't love it's a contract it's a.

decision it's an arrangement no problem. right and so what I can't do is make an. executive when people say you got to. find God you got to find Jesus listen. man even if I wanted to which I don't. but even I wanted to it doesn't work. that way right I can't just decide to. love God it's not that's not a feeling. that you can summon and dictate to. yourself so I'm an atheist because I. don't God I don't make God a sort of. part of my daily practice it's not part. of my life life it just isn't right and. I can't just choose to make it be I.

could fake it and I could go to church. every Sunday but I respect religion in. its best form too much to freaking fake. it right so and I'm not an. agnostic because you know if I if I saw. in my mind agnostic is like a hung jury. right it's like you know what I don't. know there could be a god there might. not be a God I I don't have an opinion. on it right a hung jury he might be. innocent I might be guilty you know we. can't your honor we can't decide either.

way and we can make an argument for both. so what it it's a hunger like we can't. we don't we don't know right in the. legal system that means he's innocent if. you can't come to a decision of guilt. then he's innocent right but so in in. the sort of agnostic sense like there's. evidence for evidence against I I I. don't I can't decide so I'm an agnostic. and but for me there is no evidence that. there is a God I there's belief right. which is a beautiful thing but I've. never in my life actually seen something.

happen where I like oh my god there went. God I just saw him holy [ __ ] like are. you kidding like there he is like now I. believe there's a God had I while I was. dying had God come to me whatever that. would even look like right whatever that. is had God come to me afterwards I like. you know what I don't know maybe there. is a God right because I saw some. strange [ __ ] and that's the only. explanation I can think of is that there. actually is a divine power in the world.

I encountered it it changed my life like. even if I'm not religious I'm at least. agnostic but I've never that's never. happened to me right so I'm not an. agnostic because I I just I have no. reason to to think there is a God it. never happens right I'm an atheist right. so I'm happy to be stand corrected if. someone offers up some proof but it thus. far it hasn't happened and when people. say you know what the pro the proof of. God is that the Universe exists who.

created the universe [ __ ] like. who do you think it has to be God right. and I'm like well not really like. because if complex systems need a. Creator and that's your proof of God. clearly God is a complex system that's. at least as complex as the universe he. created so who created God like that. will not get you that doesn't prove. anything right so that's the so the. theology the theology aside like. what did I make of my father appearing. above me right so.

um the the next morning to get in there. I have to sort of say what happened to. me right and if I may um the next. morning I woke up in the ICU to the. nurse saying um good morning Mr younger. congratulations you made it like it's a. miracle we we almost lost you last night. and no one can quite believe you you're.

alive it's um you know welcome back to. the world. basically I cannot tell you how. shocking it is to get news like that if. you had no idea you were dying I mean I. knew I something was going on with me. belly pain maybe I'm going to wake up to. shitty news about a tumor you know. cancer might you know whatever I mean I. Ian I was aware that this might not be a. fun day tomorrow I had no idea I was. dying in that moment right so it's. absolutely shocking so that I and.

particularly if you have children right. and my little girl I immediately thought. about my little. girls and then I remembered my father. I'm like oh my God my I saw my father. last night and the pit right all came. back to. me and I I didn't know what to do with. it I was Jesus like are you kidding what. was that and um. so I'm left there with my thoughts I'm. throwing up blood I'm a freaking mess.

right and then the nurse comes back. later and says how are you doing like. not that great frankly like thanks. thanks to you what you told me is. terrifying like what I can't stop. thinking about it that I almost died and. and she said try this she had an awesome. Boston accent she was like one of these. she was sort of middle-aged lady like. like Heart of Gold straight shooter. tough as Nails buried three husbands you.

know whatever she's one of those ICU. nurses right I liked her enormously and. she and she was like try this uh instead. of thinking about it like something. scary try thinking about it like. something sacred she walked out like a. hell of a thing to say to an atheist. right so you know for me all those. wonderful words like blessing and and. and sacred they you know they have one. they have beautiful secular meanings as. well so I feel entitled to interpret. them in my own way and for me you know. say something sacred is anything that. allows as I was saying before any any.

any work any task any knowledge anything. that allows people to live with more. dignity with less fear more connection. more love that just helps The Human. Condition a little bit like that's. that's sacred knowledge right you know. it could be a minister right it could be. a shrink it could be a journalist right. it could be you could be doing sacred. work for people I'm sure you are and so. you know the things that you say are. helping people navigate their painful. lives yeah bro absolutely we're all.

capable of sacred work right that's what. it means to me so when she said that I'm. like okay I've been going to front lines. my whole life and coming back with. knowledge that you know in my in my most. grandiose moments right I thought might. help Humanity like what's going on in. you now I wasn't in Ukraine but right. now like what's going on in Ukraine what. knowledge can we come back with that. will help the world and the United. States make better decisions about how. to preserve human dignity and human life. like whatever that whatever that means. right so that's that's at its best it's.

sort of a sacred task like many others. are and um so and now I'm not going to. front lines anymore I went to the. ultimate front line I went to my own. mortality the place the front line we're. all headed to and that most of us are. scared of like and I was allowed to look. over the. edge and then I came back I was allowed. to come back did I come back with sacred. knowledge in other words with knowledge. that would be helpful to me and to other. people lead their lives and um with less.

fear more dignity Etc. and that was the challenge and I set. about doing it at that moment I just lay. there I was like all right what did I. learn what did I learn and the big. question that I had to answer for myself. was what the hell did I see with my. father like what was that and does that. mean that there something quote more. right is there something after we die.

that we can sort of like look forward to. and count. on or is it just the dying brain. hallucinating some [ __ ] because we're so. freaking scared and this you know the. synapses are shorting out and it's going. haywire and that's what you get you see. some weird stuff right like which is it. and so I started researching ndes. near-death experiences and there's a. whole body of literature a whole body of. knowledge and frankly the whole cottage. industry somewhat Shameless cottage. industry around that you know proof of.

heaven blah blah blah but you know the. flakiness aside there's some legit you. know there's a it's very very common and. the ndes that people have had thousands. of cases of them from all over the world. different societies different cultures. even different. ages um there are historical accounts of. this and the interesting thing about. them know if you give a room full of. people LSD they all they have a wide. variety of hallucinations and we know. how that works right we know what. happens in the brain when you take LSD. no big mystery there and they'll.

hallucinate a whole bunch of crazy stuff. right with ndes what's sort of strange. is that the experiences are there are an. infinite number of them right it's not. like some people see ham sandwiches and. other people see kangaroos right it's. like they fall into some some like three. or four basic buckets right and that's. across culture throughout you know. throughout the a you know through. history and which sort of argues for a. sort of. seminal a seminal Human Experience. rather than just a sort of function of.

brain chemistry and drug and essentially. drugs right um endogenous drugs being. released in your brain in your final. moments um and so there are a lot of. people very well credentialed smart. people who are like listen these. accounts amount to evidence of an. afterlife right Sor right like that. there's so many of them they're so. consistent how do you explain this [ __ ]. like come on right and then there's. other people well credential equally. smart etc etc like nonsense I'm a. neuroscientist I'm a neurochemist you.

know like we can explain all this. through you know you put fighter pilots. in a human centrifuge spin them to 5gs. they will see a tunnel of light they. will see God they will experience their. entire life in one moment blah blah blah. you know epileptics same thing with. brain seizures like we can reproduce all. of this in the lab like this isn't. evidence of anything right but isn't the. problem with that that you're actually. killing a person when you're spinning. them into Center fuge no no no they do. this with fighter pilots right but you. know if you keep doing that you'll die.

oh absolutely and your body knows that. too so you are in a near-death. experience you're near death well you're. near death because blood's not getting. to your bre and your body knows that it. I mean you are opening that door whether. you're opening that door in a safe. manner you're still opening that door. absolutely yeah you're right you're. right but the argument for you're. absolutely right and I never thought of. it that way but the argument by the. scientist the rationalist is look we can. we can reproduce all of this in the in. the lab yeah but it's a dumb argument. because what you're doing in reproducing. it is bringing someone close to death.

right right well another thing they can. do is stimulate the brain and during. brain surgery and they do that to make. sure that they're not scooping out. they're scooping out tumor not you know. your Pi your piano lessons or whatever. right and one of the things they can do. is they stimulate certain parts of the. brain they can give people a sensation. that they're floating or that they oh my. God my my grandfather you know whatever. they can do weird [ __ ] with with the. brain with you know a tooth basically a. toothpick and a and a and a and a bone.

saw right and and so at any rate just. just suffices to say there's a there's. the sort of slightly mystical argument. of this is proof of an afterlife and. then there's the sort of rationalist. argument no no no we C we we understand. the physiology of all this and so there. was a guy in I think it was Estonia an. older guy who fell and hit his head had. a hematoma they put electrodes on his. scalp to um see what the brain activity. was cuz he was having. seizures other stuff happened to him. that the family said you know he doesn't.

have a chance of recuperating pull the. you basically pull the plug let him die. he had the um the electrodes on his on. his Brain Monitoring brain activity. before the decision to pull the plug so. they did something that would otherwise. not be ethical if someone's going to die. you're like hey let's hook him up to see. what his brain does that's not ethical. right this guy already had that stuff in. place as part of the life-saving. measures so they were able to see what. happened at the moment of death right so. what happened in the human brain in his.

brain was that there was a flood of I. think it was um gamma in his brain that. um uh that is associated with long-term. memory a flood of gamma in his brain. right and uh and that was uh and one. other frequency I can't remember at any. rate there was this the brain did. basically did what brains do when. they're remembering very very old stuff.

right and that they even found that in. in rats that they ethically are able to. kill like hook them up kill them what. happens in the brain right and so the. the a most ancient sort of me memory. Source centers of the brain are. activated at the moment of death while. there's a sort of lingering dying. Consciousness so boom all of a sudden. you're five and you're talking to your. grandfather you know whatever whatever. it is we don't know the specific things. that that man saw but we know that the. the the his brain was activated in ways.

that suggest memory retrieval right so. the rationalists like okay the brain. dies all of a sudden you see your you. know you have these old memories right. so um. now the for me as I as I read so I got. so I got home sorry it's a rather. convoluted story but hopefully it's. interesting so I got home I was a week. in the hospital with surpris everybody. but I'm I'm the reason I survived at all. was that I'm a fit athletic person and.

so I gave the something the doctor. someone to work with it also meant that. I recovered quite quickly so instead of. three weeks in the ICU I was 5 days and. then boom I'm out of there right and so. I came home and it's you know it's not. the kind of party you would expect right. like I came home and I was like woohoo. I'm alive I made it blah blah blah it's. like oh my God I almost died on a. totally ordinary day and. it could happen again this also could be. the day that I die right maybe I have.

another aneurysm like we don't know and. I completely freaked myself out it was a. classic post-trauma like anxiety Panic. reaction like it was all all very. classic it was way worse than combat way. worse right and but one of the problems. I started to have the sense that I. wasn't really there and then maybe I had. died which sounds freaky but apparently. it's quite common in people that almost. Di. that they get they're seized with this. fear that they're actually a ghost and. they didn't make it I know it sounds.

insane you right but I can just tell you. like I sincerely had that worry it was. the ultimate panic disorder right like. that you're dead like what is there. anything bigger to panic about that. you're actually dead right so and the. pro the reason I had that and this gets. to another rather mysterious slightly. woo woo part of this whole story is that. two days fire you know I had no idea. obviously that I had something that was. going to kill me in my abdomen um I had.

no conscious idea but two days prior at. dawn my family and I we we co we still. co- sleep and so we sleep in a group on. a pad on the floor and we sleep as a. family the four of us and so at dawn on. the previous night so 36 hours prior to. almost dying I was woken by this. horrific night nightmare the worst. nightmare I've ever had and I've ever. heard of and the nightmare was this that.

I was hovering above my. family and they were crying in. grief and I was waving to them they were. CRI in grief that I died and I was. waving to them I was like I'm over here. I'm right here I was shouting I was. waving my arms and they couldn't hear me. they couldn't see. me and I didn't know why and then I was. made to understand in the same way that. my father communicated with me it was. just a sort of transmission of knowledge. right I was made to.

understand that they couldn't hear me. because I'm dead I'm a go I'm a spirit. I'm not there and I'm above them and. I'll be going now I'm out you're Mr. younger you're outbound and you're not. coming back it's too late you can't go. back it's over and I was so anguished. that it woke me up and I woke up next to. my I happened to be next to my oldest. daughter and I just like clutched her. like a stuffy like I was like oh my God.

thank God cuz it really felt like I was. dead thank God that was just a dream I'm. actually here I'm alive right so then. you know 36 hours later ooh what's that. pain in my abdomen off to the hospital. almost almost. die doctors have later told me not the. doctors who saved me but other doctors. who were were honest with me like it's a. miracle you're alive right like it's. this isn't just oh good well done it's a. freaking Miracle like 10 slices of Swiss.

cheese 10 holes Happ to line up and you. threaded the needle through those holes. right like so I got back. home and I was super emotional every. time I heard a siren I'd start crying. like I mean I mean I was just a freaking. mess right and. um and then I thought oh my. God I died in my sleep. that end that that dream because I. started to read about ndes and one of.

the most common is that you're hovering. above your family another is that you. see a dead relative right so like oh my. God and I knew nothing none of this. right so oh my God that wasn't that. wasn't a dream that was my experience of. actually dying right at the kind of. experience that many people who almost. died and were sa were res you know. resuscitated report having had I was. hovering above my family and and I died. and I died in my sleep my wife woke up. next to her dead husband it's over I.

just don't know because I'm H I'm in the. middle of a Dying hallucination I'm a. ghost I'm not here I I think my daughter. is talking to me I think she's on my lap. I'm not bro you're not here man you're. like just face it right and you know you. can't disprove it right and if you're. crazy enough it actually feels like it. might be what's happening and I was. plenty crazy enough for this right and. I'm not a naturally neurotic person but. it turned me into one for a while right. and I and at one point I went to my wife.

like honey just tell me I'm really here. that I survived we're here we're good. like just told me he said of course. you're here you survive you know etc etc. but my my mind like that's exactly what. a hallucination would tell you right and. um it I was inching towards Madness. right and so so finally so sort long and. long you know long story just to sort of. finally answer your question um what I. where I landed you know I'm s I'm.

reading the nde stuff and the sort of. like the scared cat in me is like oh wow. that's pretty convincing like maybe. maybe there is an afterlife maybe we. don't have to be worried like wow how. pleasant right how pleasant to think. like that there's something to go on to. right nothing to scar nothing to be. scared of and then I then I read. afterwards the sort of like car you know. Party Poopers right just sort of like. the rationalists come in like nonsense. we can explain all this it's all.

neurochemistry like there's no freaking. after life like come on SO and because. of partly because of the father I I grew. up with like who really valued. rationalism like I was like oh well you. know nice try like you know close but no. cigar oh well I guess when we're dead. we're dead and so. then the one thing that didn't quite. makes. sense was that there's this incredible.

consistency in people like an enormous. percentage of the time and I can't. remember off the top of my head but. quite a large percentage of the time the. dying people who have ndes and are. recitate and Report their memories like. I was I was able. to they are received by the dead right. the dead come to receive them sometimes. it's your father sometimes it's a friend. who died decades earlier um sometimes. it's someone that you might not even. like very much but the dead come to. receive the dying in the way that my.

father did you know my mind I'm like I. don't know you know like I get it you. give everyone LSD and they all have. hallucinations and the dying brain. produces hallucinations but it's sort of. odd like okay you stir up the memory. banks of the brain when you die with the. gamma and all that stuff so all right so. suddenly I'm 5 years old and we're. playing by the swimming pool now. suddenly I'm you know I'm camping with. my buddy at 12 and so yeah a whole array. of memories that's different than Dad. showing up like Dad showing up saying. come with me into the Afterlife that's.

not exactly memory recall right that's. something that's something else right so. and then I started talking to hospice. nurses and. um super common experience older people. people dying of cancer in their last. days and hours what are they doing. they're having conversations with people. in the room that no one else can see. they're having conversations with the. Dead who are clearly there to take them. it's okay come with me my it happened to.

my. mother she suddenly scowled in her last. hour she. scowled and looked up at the corner was. like and said what's he doing here and. she had a terrible relationship with her. brother who had died in his 50s you know. like decades earlier right and I just. guessed I was like Mom that's Uncle. George and he's come a very long way to. see you and you have to be nice to. him and she frowned and she said we'll. see about.

that it continues into the Afterlife. right it's not over when you die right. it goes on right there's a sequel to. this right right so so these these. visits are not necessarily sort of. benevolent like oh the dying you know. sort of need some kind of comfort and. they manufacture a vision of a loved one. to make them feel better it's not quite. that either and there and then there's. super point stories um I talked to a. hospice nurse who um who was taking care. of an older gentleman who was dying.

painlessly you know no morphing at all. so of clear mind right um you know in. his 80s or 770s or 80s and um and in his. last you know 12 hours or so he suddenly. the nurse that I talked to said that the. man looked and he was like. Barbara oh my God you know it's so good. to see you like oh thank God you're here. you know like so the nurse who's been.

through this a million times says okay. he's in his last hours now this is the F. this is the end game right thank God. because he's dying and it's you know. like needs to resolve and so she went. into the kitchen where the wife was and. said I think we're in the last stages he. he's he's Rec you know he's he's seen. he's seeing someone in the room he seems. very very happy to see her is someone. named. Barbara does that name mean anything to.

you so the wife. says yes that was his one true love so. of course the nurse is like oh my God I. stepped in it right and then she. goes that was our. 19-year-old oh wow right I mean how do. you start tell that story and not start. crying right I mean it's like so that. that kind of. story um is super super common so in my.

mind right I'm like okay I buy the I buy. the centrifuge I buy the you know like. endogenous DMT and the blah blah the. gamma I I I get it I get it what I don't. understand is the consistency of the. visions of the Dead coming to and like. my father did I mean you you um I get. that we hallucinate in times of extreme. stress but not that I don't get the. content being consistent across cultures.

across ages manners of death like on and. on like what really like how do you like. so to me that doesn't prove there's a. quote after life but it raises a. legitimate question like what is it. we're talking about here and so where I. land and I promise I won't like drag us. into a long conversation about quantum. physics but what you know basically the. the the rational. the the the argument that's both. rational and. open-minded uh and my mind has been.

enormously opened by this experience not. to God but to maybe we just don't. understand the nature of existence. completely right it's been open to that. so the the rational and open-minded. explanation for some of this. stuff uh if you don't dismiss it if you. don't dismiss it as just neurochemistry. and you're not going to go Whole Hog on. well you know God exists thank. Hallelujah if you're not going to do. either of those two things the. conversation that I think can be had is. maybe there is some sort of post-death.

existence at the sort of quantum meaning. the subatomic. level that we just don't understand and. uh some post-death existence for the. individual and not necessarily. post-death Consciousness we're not on a. hammock with a daquiri you know it's not. like you know those are human. projections right but like but maybe at. the quantum level that we just just. don't quite understand what death is. what reality is what Consciousness is.

and one of the so my father was a. physicist and my um just weirdly my. great aunt had a long passionate affair. with shinger the physicist who shinger. shinger cat right and one of the. mysteries of quantum physics and I'm. sure you've come into this in your you. know in your studies and your research. and your conversations you know one of. the profound mysteries of quantum. physics that was sort of br Spen wide. open about 100 Years Ago by people like. schinger and and um and Heisenberg.

um that when you observe a subatomic. particle it acts differently than if you. don't observe it right so you create. basically the act of cons conscious. observation like if I you know if I look. at that ashtray the ashtray does exactly. what it does if I don't look at it right. in the macroscopic world conscious. observation doesn't change anything. right at the. in the subatomic World it changes. everything right so a subatomic particle.

an electron is in all. positions as a as a statistical. probability it's in all positions Until. You observe it and then it's in one. position right if you fire a photon at. two slits in a metal. plate with some photographic film on the. other side to Mark where the photon hits. if you fire the photon at a plate with. two slits is the famous double slit. experiment fire the photon at two slits.

and monit actively monitor it with a. photon detector while it's. moving it will go through one slit and. hit the strike plate on the far side. with a signature of like Passage through. one slit right if you fire a photon. through two slits and don't monitor. it it simultaneously. goes through both slits and leaves a. signature on the other side of having. done so right in other words and this is.

the one of the deepest mysteries of of. existence right at the quantum level our. Act of. observation creates the reality that we. are observing and that if we don't. observe it it's another reality right so. given that deep and unresolvable mystery. is it. possible in the sort of like the. electrons in all places at once until we.

watch it and then it's in one place and. that sort of basic sense of a profound. mystery at the quantum level is it. possible that there's an equivalent. mystery around biological death the. existence of Consciousness which people. still don't understand right like they. can't even Define what it is exactly. right um is there a mystery around that. that we not only don't understand can't. understand and one of the theories super. and I'll end with this but it's this. it's a super out there Theory it's.

called. biocentrism there's a guy named Adam. lonza that you might be interested in. talking to he's a brilliant guy um he's. one of the sort of pioneers of. biocentrism and basically what he's. saying is that look if Consciousness. determines reality at the quantum level. and the universe ultimately is a Quantum. uh is a Quantum reality um it's possible. that. Consciousness is part of that that. there's a subatomic particle associated.

with Consciousness just like the higs. bosan is associated with gravity like. gravity exists because of the higs bosan. it's a subatomic particle that we can. measure right and maybe Consciousness is. associ in the same way is part of the. physical existence of the UN without. gravity there is no Universe there is no. there's no nothing right it's essential. to existence and maybe Consciousness is. essential to the existence of the.

universe in the singular form that it. takes um and it was it and it landed in. the singular form with the arrival of. Consciousness maybe it's all one and the. same thing and that actually coincides. quite nicely with. shinger um who was of the opinion that. there was a universal Consciousness. there was a kind of Colossus of. consciousness. that we are all a tiny part of and when. we die we return to it right on some. Quantum level that no one has any.

freaking idea as I say in my book we. might understand reality about as well. as a dog understands a TV screen like. with absolutely no concept of the. Machinery the mechanisms the processes. that produce the flickering images that. are in front of us we might like the dog. doesn't have that understanding of what. it's looking at we might not have an. understanding of of the cosmos that. creates the system that creates the. reality that we are seeing and that we. think is.

existence yeah I'm. entitled to believe that we're uh. entirely too uh arrogant in our. understanding of what we know and that. we have a very limited amount of. information even though it's incredibly. complex for our understanding for our. understanding the Leaps and Bounds that. we have made since using leeches to. treat diseases is off the charts right. and you're Liv Testament to it yeah but. I think it is a very very shallow.

understanding of an infinite thing. that's happening all the time have you. ever seen they they just recently made. images of quantum entangled. photons no I mean I know about quantum. entanglement another great mystery I. haven't seen the images spooky action in. a distance take a look at what this. looks like Quantum entangled photons. look like a yin-yang like exactly oh. awesome exactly that's it that's a. Quantum inang my God are you kid my God. oh my God so each one contains the the.

at its Center a bit of the other exactly. so maybe someone knew this thousands and. thousands of years ago the idea that the. the Chinese or whoever created that. initial symbol the idea that they just. stumbled accidentally upon the an actual. image of quantum entangled photons very. very unlikely. that just seems too insane and too. amazing that's fascinating fascinating. right and to find that out when was that.

discovered Jamie was that very. recently yeah I saw it in some science I. think it was like last year okay yeah. entanglement has has been around for. decades but but but those images are re. that's stunning that's that's amazing. yeah. so I think this whole thing that oh we. know what's going on in the brain oh we. know the human neurochemicals they could. oh we know we can Sate brain oh we know. we you in cuge you don't know [ __ ] you. this is a we are at the edge of a vast.

forest and we're peering in and we're. arrogant and we're arrogant because the. people that know know more than. everybody else the people that do have. an understanding of human neurochemistry. and do have an understanding of how the. Body Works know far more than I do know. far more than most people do so they. have an arrogance of this understanding. this rational sort of reductionist. perspective of what reality is but I I. think it's nonsense well listen the. physicists to give them their due they.

are they are the branch of science which. is actually fully aware of the the you. know the drop off where the mystery. begin knowledge ends in the Mystery. Begins they could not explain this stuff. when it happened it actually unsettled. those guys schinger and Einstein and and. um Heisenberg and all it really quite. unsettled them right they were like whoa. what are we unfolding here do and are we. sure we want to unfold this uncover this. and one Sir Arthur Edington said this. wonderful thing he was asked about these.

sort of central mysteries of quantum. physics and the universe and um and he. said. um something something that we don't. know is doing we know not what right. that's a good way to put it so like yeah. there's some humility right there right. and at its core quantum. physics there's a a there's a mystery at. the core of quantum physics equivalent. to the mystery at the core of religion. MH the end of the day religion is an Act. of Faith right and and and you can't.

answer these questions right rationally. and at the end of the day the physicists. themselves will say look we just don't. know these these these test results make. no sense in the macroscopic rational. world that we live in every day you. can't the the macroscopic and the. subatomic World they they make make. they're completely opposite to each. other they make the laws are laws of. physics are completely different at the. macroscopic level and the and in the.

subatomic level yeah and you know just. the fact that if you look at atoms. themselves it's mostly empty space yeah. like what the [ __ ] is going on right. this all of this we have a cursor a. cursory understanding of something. that's infinitely complex we have an. understanding of it and far greater. every year and they keep dis they keep. exploring to but I think we're also. cursed with these [ __ ] primate brains. you know these primate brains that we.

have already talked about today are. filled with flaws and you know childhood. trauma and bipolar and depression and. schizophrenia and all these different. issues with the primate brain and we are. the dog looking at the television screen. we are and I think I've talked to a lot. of these doctors that have this. reductionist perspective and um. very few of them have had psychedelic. experiences right I think I think the. brain is capable of opening up a door.

and I think that door opens when you die. and I don't know where a door is a bad. word uh it's not the right word it's but. it's all I have it's it's an opening. it's a Gateway there's something going. on inside of us there's something going. on we are interconnected in ways that. are far greater than our understanding. of human social interactions there's. something going on with us and that we. experien that with love we experien that. with the love of you know your wife or.

your husband or the love of your child. or your your family members we. experience this connection that's like. this it's very different it connects us. like as souls and that's what I think. I'm getting to there's I think the soul. is real and I I really didn't have that. that thought really I was pretty pretty. atheist I grew up I was went to Catholic. school when I was very young uh for. first grade and had a really bad. experience there and it just I was like. religion's [ __ ] my parents were. breaking up when I was young and I was.

uh I got really into religion at a. because I I felt like religion at least. like if there's chaos in my family life. you know there's always God like God's. going to make sense then I went to. Catholic school I was like okay okay God. has nothing to do with this like this is. [ __ ] ridiculous then my grandfather. died I was very close to my grandfather. I loved him very very much I stayed with. him when I moved to uh New York um and. um I was like uh 23 years old and uh I.

didn't have a place to stay I didn't. have any money I just got signed by this. manager and I was going to go to New. York to do standup comedy I was like was. going to chase my dream so I was living. with my grandfather and it was my. grandmother had an aneurysm and they. gave my grandmother uh 72 hours and she. lived for 12 years wow at least 12 years. it might have been a little. longer and um she was bedridden and uh I. was staying with him and her and my.

grandfather had been dealing with his. wife dying for all these years yeah and. uh she would like moan in pain you'd. hear like make these sounds and I knew. they were they were he was old and she. was old they were go they were dying and. I knew she was going to die probably. quicker than him. and it was this transition in my life. from me like going forth on this great.

adventure to seeing this man that I. loved in just darkness was like yeah his. wife my grandmother was bed ridden it. was Agony it was depression they lived. in a very bad neighborhood they lived in. uh North 9th Street in Newark New. Jersey when they live when they moved. there in uh the 1940s it was an all.

Italian neighborhood and then they. started doing this thing called block. busting and what blockbusting is is they. would uh real estate agents would come. in and they would say black people are. moving into your neighborhood you have. to sell now if you don't sell now you're. going to lose the value of your home and. it's the way they like they fired up the. real estate market and they they crushed. communities this way Jesus and. my grandfather's like I like black. people I'm not going anywhere yeah and. he never moved and he stayed there and. it it changed from a black neighborhood.

to a primarily Hispanic neighborhood and. when I was with him when I stayed with. him just before like just before after I. got there I can't really remember it was. 30 years ago um the Kid Next Door was. selling crack and police broke down the. door and like he had an Audi I remember. he had an Audi in the driveway I. remember looking I was like this kid of. a [ __ ] Audi it's a nice car you know. in. 1990 and.

um it was just bad everything was it's. very depressing it was a depressing. depressing space like the neighborhood's. depressing his life was ending you know. he it was very very sad and when I went. to his. funeral when he was in the. casket I looked at him and I'm sure. you've been to a funeral before and I. know you've seen dead people before but. there's something about seeing a dead.

body where you're like oh he's not there. yeah it's un it's unmistakable he's not. there it's not as simple. as you know he stopped moving right no. he's not there he wasn't there anymore. yeah and I. remember I remember this feeling of like. understanding came across me like oh. like the thing is inside of you whatever. that is is real it's not just as simple.

as you're alive right and I at that. moment at that moment of seeing my. grandfather in his casket I started. considering a soul I started thinking. like oh this isn't [ __ ] and then I. started thinking like how arrogant it is. to assume that you know that all these. people for thousands and thousands and. thousands and thousands of years have. talked about souls right it's. it's a universal idea it's not common to. one specific culture it's not isolated.

it's a universal concept of there being. something inside of you and I think it's. an I think it's something that we. intuitively understand that we know we. we we are aware of it we know it's real. y we just can't put it on a scale we. can't put a ruler on it and measure it. we can't but there's it's a thing and I. think that. thing is. it's intertwined with Consciousness. that's what I think this is just my own. feeling I think your.

soul interacts with Consciousness and. Consciousness is a force right and I. think we're all experiencing. Consciousness we're just doing it in. this weird way we're doing. it with different biological entities. different life experiences different. people and stimuli you around different. neighborhoods different parts of the. world but it's the same thing thing and. the way I've described it is like I. think that you are me I know it sounds. it's like hippie nonsense horseshit but.

I think if you lived my life you would. be me and if I lived your life I would. be you and I think we are all people I. think all people are the same we are. just living through different genetics. different biological experien different. biological filters different life. experiences I think we're all the same I. really do and I think that what your. soul is is your connection to. consciousness I think your thing the. thing that in in in that you intersect. with and I I think whatever we are.

there's like a place that that thing. goes right and I have a feeling that. that's what these near-death experiences. are that's with what a lot of. psychedelic experiences are I think it's. a looking it's a looking into the other. side and I think I don't think all these. cultures have had the same idea by. accident yeah structurally like at their. core they're all incredibly similar and. there's there's the realm of the dead. right and so I think there's also a very.

limited there's a there's a perspective. of what God is and there's a perspective. of the universe itself like oh who made. the universe if God didn't make the. universe or who made. God I think we are limited by our our. own biological perspective which. requires a birth and a. death a beginning and an end and that. there has to it has to come from. somewhere I and I don't necessarily. think that's real and I I have a feeling.

that this concept of a. God is. even greater that what what it entails. is even greater than an entity I think. it's all things right I think what God. really is is the Universe I think it is. all things right right well that's. biocentrism is sort of along those lines. it's it's all one huge thing yeah I've. I've come to this thought. like in steps over time like where it is.

makes more and more sense and I'm not. trying to comfort myself I'm not looking. for some sort of uh. rational that's not what I'm doing I'm. just I feel like all these cultures have. this idea for a reason right and I don't. I don't think it's I think we're tuning. into it. in these little blips and we're bringing. back evidence from the other side we're. bringing back stories and anecdotes and.

feelings that you get intuition you know. things that happen at certain times in. your life where you're just like okay. what is that what is you're I. think we all know also that if you're if. you have love in your life and you you. love your friends and you have good. times like there's an elevated feeling. that comes with that that that's bigger. than just fun there's like there's a. there's a a bond that we have because. it's the moment in these great Mo these.

great times of love where we recognize. that we're one that's right you lose. your the the shackles of your. individuality you lose your ego you lose. your biological limitations the bi this. chimp body and chimp mind that wants to. keep you alive that wants to make sure. you're spread your genes and control. resources and do all the stupid things. that humans do that that thing could. confuses you that that's what life is. right right there's a there's a cemetery. a Veteran Cemetery in the woods near in.

the town where my mom used to live my. mom passed away obviously and and um I'd. go running there and it's a beautiful. little spot so hidden away and there's a. gravestone of a World War II vet who. died uh later in life right he lived a. natural life and died in his 80s and um. it's a very simple gravestone I can't. remember his name I wrote it. down and it all it says. is all all that survives of us is love. that's so beautiful yeah right and I. think and I think that's right and you.

don't need to be religious to think that. way you don't have to you can be. whatever it's just like such a profound. truth like that's all that survives yeah. and I think a lot of religions are. simply. people's effort to try to consolidate. all these thoughts and feelings into a. Doctrine into something that you can. tell people that you have the answer and. whenever someone tells you they have the. answer well that's impossible right. that's impossible so you don't have the. answer but there might be wisdom in. these ancient teachings that I think is.

real right and I think that's really. what fascinates me about religion it's. it's ancient. man's attempts to understand and Define. this whole thing with this monkey mind. that we have right right sometimes. people ask me so how did this change you. you know did you find God you know no I. didn't but you know he did change me and. one of the way to Chang me in is. that I realized even if you're in good. health even if you're not in a war zone. blah blah. blah that we don't know none of us none.

of us know that this this is not our. last day right right none of us know I. mean probably not hopefully not but we. don't know for sure June 16th 2020 was. an utterly ordinary day when I woke up. that morning I had no idea I was I. really slated to die in 12 hours right. no no clue and so if you somehow knew. you that you were going to die in 12. hours somehow knew that who would you. want to be that day right right I'm.

guessing you wouldn't be scrolling. through Instagram I'm guessing you. wouldn't be wasting your time hating on. people that pissed you off I'm guessing. you'd be. like just holding your loved ones close. and just being amazed at how beautiful a. tree is or I don't know what right like. it's almost a religious vision of what. existence is right I think it would. Inspire that and so so my question is. like you don't know that today isn't. your last day so who do you want to be. today right because you never know so.

who do you want to be in the world and. hopefully day after day you're that. person and then you don't have to die at. the end like what a beautiful way to. live and that's so it sort of changed me. in that sense I I I saw after I finished. the book I I read a. um I read a story about DVI the great. Russian writer who suffered a mock. execution when he was in 20s I mean what. a sadistic thing to do to a young person. or anybody right so he was a um he was a.

radical you know like he and his and his. sort of like radical friends would sit. around talking about outrageous stuff. like liberating the Surfs and crazy. ideas like that and this is in the 1840s. and so Zar Nicholas the first you know. didn't take that kind of thing kindly. and and um the police arrested them all. like six of them threw them in jail. wasn't a particularly serious crime. right but threw in jail it's it's it's. Zar Russia right it's a it's an oppress. it's an oppressor state right and after. eight months they finally released them.

and these young men assumed that they. were going to be like put in a wagon and. driven to the courthouse and discharged. and returned to their families after. eight horrible months right like okay. they're put in a wagon and they're. driven to a city. Square they only had minutes to adjust. to this instead of being released they. were tied to posts and a firing squad. was lined up in front of. them and the order was given to to the. soldiers to charge your.

rifles. Ready. Aim and at that moment a rider galloped. into the square and said thear forgives. them okay so what so the you know the. question my question would be like what. does the world look like like how. hallucinatory is it. if you know that you're going to be dead. in seconds what does the world literally. look like to you to that perspective.

because we're all DVI right I mean the. command of fire isn't maybe in three. five seconds it might be in 50 years but. we're all waiting for the right we're. all getting the command eventually so. what does the world look like to someone. where all that that whole lifetime is. compressed into a few seconds what's the. world look like we should understand. that vision of the world and incorporate. it to some degree into our experience of. our hopefully 50 80 90 years of life. right so this intense little capsule of.

reality like what is what is so what did. he what did he see in those moments. because he wrote about it like this is. valuable information like what's the. world look like what's it really look. like when you're about to be torn from. it right and um so he said he was. standing there and he saw sunlight. glinting off the steeple of a. church and he had this amazing thought. which goes to your point right this. amazing thought he said in moments I'm.

going to join the sunlight I'm going to. be part of all things we're all part of. all things and in. minutes that's where that's what I'll be. and then he said if I should some in his. mind he thought if I should by some. miracle survive. this I'm going to live my life turning. every moment into an infinity. wow mindblowing right so two of the six. men in that. group it broke them they were insane for.

the rest of their lives DVI he survived. it. psychologically and it deepened him. enormously and he and he wrote through. other characters he wrote about that. experience yeah if you have knowledge of. your death you know it's I used to do. this bit about um there was a a a tiger. attack in San Francisco and like the. I guess it was like the early 2000s or. something like these kids were throwing. pine cones at a tiger in uh in an.

enclosure in the zoo and um they didn't. know that the tiger when they built the. zoo that they made the fence 14t high. they thought that was enough oh no it's. not enough I know what's coming like you. have a a the joke was if you have a. monster in a box in the middle of the. city maybe you should put a [ __ ] roof. on the box like how expensive is it to. put a cage on the top well these kids. are throwing things at the tiger the. tiger leaps holy [ __ ] leaps up gets a.

hold of the top of the fence and the. thought was like if you're that kid and. you see those Paws hit that fence and. you see that thing like flying through. the air coming right at you do you even. see it or is it just like this. collidoscope of psychedelic images as. this thing you know it's over like. you're looking at The Most Beautiful. Death that's currently available it's. the most beautiful animal that can kill. you a tiger I mean they're gorgeous yeah.

and they're also terrifying at the same. time and it's running at you like a. psychedelic. experience wow did did anyone they died. yeah one guy lived I think I think one. guy lived I think unfortunately the kid. is throw in the pine cones lived I don't. remember I don't really remember the. whole story one died two survived yeah. yeah okay two survive and they had to. kill the tiger of course they always. have to kill the tiger cuz it went tiger. yeah did what it's I mean yeah look I.

[ __ ] hate zoos I mean I used to take. my kids to them because my kids loved. them but they're [ __ ] prisons they're. prisons for animals that didn't do. anything wrong yeah and uh last time we. went we were in uh I think it was in. Denver and uh we were turning towards. this primate section where they have all. these monkeys and these cages and this. monkey is. Wailing just screaming in agony. just like a crazy person locked up in a.

cage I'm like that poor [ __ ]. like what are they doing to him just so. people could stare at it and go oh there. it is oh there it is yeah and yeah it's. awful tigers are nature's balancing. system you can't have too many deer so. you have to have tigers and axes deer. are the kind of deer that live around. Tigers I don't know if you ever seen an. axis deer they're beautiful they have. white spots over their body and they. move like bullets you never seen an.

animal move that fast um axes deer they. just [ __ ] go because they're just. always looking out for Tigers so this. animal is primed by nature to be chasing. things and killing things that is. literally its biological reward system. that's what it's here for that's why. it's 600 PB pound of [ __ ] tissue and. Talons and what we do we give it cold. meat that they push out on a platter and.

it just eats the meat it doesn't get to. kill anything and then things stare at. it and look at it in the eyes which is. [ __ ] insane that uh you ever look a. tiger in the eye in the wild you would. be [ __ ] Frozen In Fear And this thing. has to endure other puny Little Things. throwing stuff at it over this fence and. this Universal karmic moment it realizes.

that it can get them right there's an. amazing poem by Ted Hughes called wolf. watching wolves are of course equivalent. to Tigers right the canine equivalent to. tigers and he goes to the zoo and looks. at the wolf and the poem wolf watching. is it's worth looking up it's just one. of the most extraordinary poems about. exactly what you're talking talking. about and the look in the wolf's eye and. what he knows you're doing to him and. he's Superior to you and he know this.

it's an unbelievable poem Ted Hughes. wolf watching you got to I mean. seriously like look it. up. yeah yeah we're bizarre we're bizarre. with this whole [ __ ] zoo thing the. zoo thing's very weird it's like and on. one hand it helps preserve uh. diminishing populations of some animalss. right you know and they do do that but. on the other hand like why do you have a. polar bear in a [ __ ] swimming pool in.

the middle and right what are you. doing they go crazy they just go in. circles bears in an enclosure where they. just wander around C people going go. crazy too a solitary confinement uhhuh I. mean you know people can't take it more. you know like it drives it breaks their. brain yeah yeah yeah um. you you keep saying like the word like. I'm an atheist do I believe in God why.

even why even have a. belief I mean I don't I don't have any. belief you don't have anything anymore. so but you still consider yourself an. atheist an atheist is someone who. doesn't believe in a God right I I don't. I don't have that belief so you don't. believe or not. believe I mean not beleving isn't an. active right I mean well you don't know. right this is why this is why the. atheism thing usually kind of drives me.

nuts with people like when people say. there is no God like well that's not. atheism right atheism is that I don't. believe in God it's not claiming to be. able to prove there is right there's a. little more arrogance to there is no God. rather than I don't believe in a God and. you can't make yourself believe in. something right right so if you want to. tell me that gravity doesn't exist I. can't make myself believe that M right. and I can't make myself believe God. exists contrary You. know despite the complete lack of.

evidence that he does or she whatever. like I I can't force that that belief. right in myself even if I wanted to but. I would never ever say oh there is no. God yeah I would never assert that right. and I wouldn't even I wouldn't even say. I'm agnostic like I don't know one way. or the other I wouldn't even say that I. would say I don't believe in God I don't. run my life according to a belief in. God Jordan Peterson says whether or not.

you believe in God if you live your life. as if God is real you'll live a better. life well yeah I'm paraphrasing that's. essentially what he saying well he's. exhorting people towards moral Behavior. which is totally fine but you don't need. God to be look you don't need God yeah. some some people might and some people. need laws to not rob banks I think the. con the concept of it that we're all. connected in some way that's greater. than just this life. experience is what what that's the.

foundation of this understanding of it. well if so then what I would say is. because as soon as you say God it. presents right some logical problems I. would say you know live your life as if. you believe in a a a universal Unity a. colossal Unity of all things I think the. word God is the problem yeah it's it's. just been kind of co-opted and he gets. co-opted by visuals of like a person you. know patriarchal leader who's in the sky.

with a [ __ ] book of all the [ __ ] you. did wrong right yeah right right right. and that's a silly I mean I was so I you. know a guy raised his hand at one talk. and he was quite incensed and that I was. still said I was an atheist right and uh. and he said you know you were he was. quite you know he came right at me right. and you know atheists don't I mean I. don't care if someone's a Believer like. why would I care in what you believe you. know like but but often Believers are. quite upset that you're an atheist which.

is this bizarre bizarre Quirk of the. psychology that I don't understand but. at any rate he raised his hand he said. he said you know you're only alive. because of God's grace and you're um. you're you're you you have to be. thankful you have to find Jesus and you. have to be thankful to God for saving. you because it was only his grace that. saved you and I said you know what. um I flatlined right I did like what I. do with upset people like I didn't get. emotional I went to zero you know zero. Kelvin I said you know.

what my problem with that is why. me like why me and not Tim Tim. heatherington was my buddy out at rreo. the guy I made the movie rreo with who. was killed in combat in Libya he died. like I did he bled out except he bled. out not from an aneurism but from a. shrapnel wound in his groin right so why. why me and not Tim right and for that. matter why me and not a 9-year-old with. cancer like and what you're saying so. what you're saying is unless you can. answer that question which I don't think.

you can what you're saying is that. there's actually a kind of random. lottery for God's grace and if that's. the way he runs things I don't want. anything to do with them because that's. cruel right and uh so that so that's my. that's my quibble with the word God but. Universal Unity you know I'm good right. Shing or is you know if it's good for. Shing or it's good for me you know. whatever and and uh so you know I would. um I don't know the the the the the.

violence of the emotions around all this. is just is is puzzling to me like I. don't understand why people get so. heated about what someone else believes. well people get heated about everything. if you know I I've had conversations. with people that are just. Democrats to the end that's my team I'm. with the Raiders you know and that's. that's just how it is with everything. and people are that way with religion. they're that way with the state they. live in the football team they support. they're that way with everything that's.

just humans yeah it's just that's some. it's just some primate [ __ ] yeah and I. think the real discussion is in what. what how do you feel why do you feel the. way you feel and what do you think and. what do you know that has sort of. educated these thoughts and you know if. you believe that human beings are. inherently bad and then only a fear of a. fear of um hell and a fear frankly a not. a love of God a fear of God will make. you act well if you really think that's. what humans are then sort of religion. makes sense but so for me for example.

and I'm assuming for you and most people. that I think we probably know like I. don't murder people and rob banks and. things like that because I'm afraid of. going to jail I refrain from doing those. things because I don't want to be. someone who does those things I have my. own inner morality right about how how. what what it means to be a good person. to not be a freaking psychopath like I. don't it's I mean I don't want to go to. jail either but you don't need the laws.

you don't need the courts to make me act. well in that sense right so if you need. God in order to like not rob banks and. kill people and rape people bro you got. a freaking problem right right you're. still a problem even if you don't do. those things because you're scared of. God you're still not a person that I. trust yeah no I. I share that perspective I think what. this whole thing is for a lot of people.

and the one of the problems with. religion and True Believers is boy folks. there's a lot of different versions of. that story and you got to make sure. you're betting on the right one because. there's a billion people that don't. think you are and you think you're. smarter than them like I think it's. people trying to get a map of what this. is all about right and I think it's been. that way forever I think people have. always tried to figure it out and they. have little bits and pieces and we're. putting it together and unfortunately we.

also like to look at these things as if. they're like this Doctrine is 100%. factual I've seen U Muslims do it I've. seen Christians do it I've seen Jews do. it people have this this belief that. their way is the way it's the only way. everyone else is the other which seems. contrary to the word of God of the the. real thought the concept of this. interconnected thing that we're.

experiencing I think it's I I think it's. all way weirder I think everyone's. scared to die but no one's scared to. sleep cuz you know you're going to come. back yeah but you do it every night. every night you go to some crazy place. you're shut off and you you you return. and you assume. because you have memory and because you. have an understanding of the environment. and you have a task that you have to do. oh got to be at work by nine you have.

all this stuff in your head you're. assuming just assuming that as you woke. up today that this is your life at 56. years old continuing along the same path. but it might not be it's just guessing. we're just we are we're we have our eyes. closed and we're feeling through the. darkness yeah and we don't know and we. give. ourselves these rules and we give. ourselves these stories we give.

ourselves these religious practices to. put structure into this thing and to put. certainty into this thing that is. absolutely uncertain right and we get. angry if someone questions our certainty. because our certainty defines our. ability to exist in this experience in a. in a way that keeps us saying like God. has a will God has a plan this is all. yeah I think it's way weirder I think. it's way weirder and I think that's what.

you experienced when your dad came to. you and that's what you experienced when. you look down at the pit I think I think. the whole thing is way weirder I don't. think I don't think it's as as simple as. why would God take a child and give a I. mean I think the whole thing is an Uber. complex interaction of emotions and. experiences that were all going through. simultaneously and I have a feeling that. part of the thing that moves us forward. unfortunately is negativity and the the.

positivity battling against that. negativity which strengthens the. positivity because of the resistance. yeah I think it like the evil of the. world is almost like an important factor. in the whole equation of our. existence yeah and I I think humans have. always struggled with it and they've. come up with theories that sort of like. help them get by and some of them even. support human dignity some don't and um.

and here we are with the great you know. still surrounded by the great mystery. the great mystery and you know what like. let's hear it for the great mystery like. if you think about it this thought came. to me the other day like we're in a kind. of sweet spot so if you sort of knew for. sure like we could if the scientists. could prove right if the Nerds could. prove that there was an afterlife and. what you got to do was just more of the. same except it's a lot more pleasant for. eternity if we could prove that it would.

strip the value out of these precious. decades that we are allotted right one. of the reasons that life is so precious. because it's so. finite right so if you could prove there. was an afterlife don't worry about it. like listen you're going to you know. okay you know you your your wife dumped. you and blah blah blah but you know. don't worry about it because soon the. afterlife is going to start and then. you're good forever so just don't don't. sweat it right in fact why don't you. just kill yourself right now and just. get on to it because that's when the. good part starts right it would ruin.

what life is it would distribute of. value on the other hand like um the two. other guys in dust's group of friends if. we could prove like literally prove. scientifically that there is no. afterlife and you can't prove a negative. but somehow if we could prove there was. no afterlife whatsoever we're biological. beings when we die that's it we rot we. return to the soil that's it done if we.

could prove that that might be so. psychologically devastating that that it. would be actually quite hard to lead a. meaningful life because in your mind. you're thinking well what's the fraking. point right right so where we're at. right now there's the perfect level of. ambiguity that there's not such a proof. of afterlife that why you know why. bother leading our lives but there's. also not such a um such a doubt about it. that it's psychologically devastating. we're in this sweet spot which allows us.

to sort of invest maximum meaning and. the least amount of psychological. distress in these decades that were. allotted so in a weird way where we're. at right now is to sort of tuned. perfectly to the human brain for giving. the maximum amount of meaning to this. time that we have here on Earth and if. you go in the extreme either direction. of absolute certainty that there is an. afterlife or is no afterlife if you go. to that extreme it actually just robs us.

of what we do know for sure that we have. which is this life right now right and. that's part of the magic of it right the. magic of it is the uncertainty the the. the temporary nature of it the finite. nature of existence all of it yeah and. the reason you know Karl Marx hated. religion be is because basically the is. the peasant class had been told listen. don't worry about it your J your lot. sucks right the Surfs like your lot. sucks you're oppressed you're poor blah. blah blah but don't worry about it.

because there's an afterlife so and Marx. is like there'll never be revolution as. long as people think that once they die. everything gets nice right right right. and uh so that's that's why the marks. hated religion and it's a totally. legitimate Point yeah it's a legitimate. point but you think you know even that. it's like there's too much we don't know. and it's too hard to not know things so. we pretend right and the version of. religion that he was rebelling against.

is like look the meek shall inherit the. earth right right you're crushed under. the boot heel of Zara's the Zara's boot. heel here in life but you know the meek. shall inherit in the earth so just wait. a little while and then it's all going. to come to you like that's what you know. markx wasn't objecting to a sort of like. Transcendent not knowing Transcendent. mystery he was object to a completely. calculated and. manipulative like um uh social program. that kept people oppressed which is.

often times what religion becomes. particularly when people have groups of. people that they control they have power. like genas Khan famously let people. practice any religion they wanted people. like oh he's so. open-minded like no that's not what it. was he wanted order and he's like yeah. believe that go believe that yeah that's. right yeah that's right he also. apparently just screwed his way across. Asia because I think it's 11% of the. population in the areas that he. conquered are directly descended from. him his DNA yeah 11% he killed 10% of.

the population of the planet and. replaced them with well he did I mean if. he in his lifetime because of his. actions somewhere between 50 and 70. million people died God it's so many. that you can you can see when they do. core samples of the earth a difference. in the carbon footprint of human beings. wow yeah the areas that they devastated. reforested to the point where there's a. difference in the level of carbon wow.

that's amazing yeah that's how many. people they killed there's a famous. story Dan Carlin's hardcore history is. this amazing podcast and uh he has this. uh series called the wrath of the con. and one of the stories they talk about. the charism and Shaw who goes to visit. uh Jin China and. they think what they see in the distance. is a snow covered Peak and as they get. closer they realize that it's a mountain. of Bones and they had killed over a.

million people in the city and piled. them up on top of each other and they. had to abandon their their they were. pulling wagons they had abandoned the. roads because the roads were so mucked. up with decaying humans wow that the. roads had become muddy you couldn't. Traverse them cuz so many people had. rotted and decayed in the roads that it. became. mud that's insane but he was really. open-minded when he came to religion.

yeah and he opened up trade to the east. like there's a lot of like he had a lot. of wives yeah well I don't think they. were wives they weren't wives I think. they were yeah he did a lot of raping a. lot of murdering and horrible torturous. murdering and like you you the stories. it's just like what we just what we know. just about how how about the way they. hid his uh burial site yeah do you know. that that story yeah they [ __ ] killed. everybody everybody who went and buried. him everybody who killed the people who. buried them they killed them they just.

they killed thousands of people just to. protect the location of his grave and to. this day nobody knows where it is yeah. that's right wild yeah yeah there's an. amazing book by is it Jack Weatherford I. think his name is about geni Khan like. the classic book it's amazing book worth. reading Jack Weatherford yeah I mean. what a it just what a [ __ ] bizarre. moment in history where this one genius. who's like really the best at killing.

people and taking over countries and he. he does it at a scale and then it goes. away which is a real lesson for America. because the Mongols ran everything for a. long [ __ ] time for hundreds of years. and then they didn't because of. infighting yeah infighting uhhuh not. they weren't defeated from the outside. died it was infighting well also down. genghiskhan was dead and the the genius. behind the whole operation you know he. had a. particular tactical War mind that was.

just different than everybody else's he. was a genius absolutely he was just a. genius applied to killing people right. and that was gone once his children took. over and it's how it always works yeah I. mean that's right but that's us folks. when people when I talk to leftwing. people about you know aggression right. and how it's uh how it's. um sort of B. like how it's maladaptive it would the.

anthropological term like maladaptive it. produces bad outcomes right and I'm like. look arguably the most aggressive man on. the planet in history was genis Khan and. he left the largest genetic footprint on. the human genome on the human race of. any individual ever. right so aggression at that level in. darwinian terms right is absolutely. rewarded right the shy guy that was.

writing poetry had one kid right GIS. Khan 11% of the population of the area. that he conquered is descended directly. from him he's their daddy it was because. of his aggression right so you just you. have to understand that in evolutionary. terms aggression is richly rewarded so. the trick for human culture is to blunt. that with some cultural values that. bring people back into a place of of of.

peace and dignity and cooperation and. blah blah blah right but just don't tell. me that aggression is counterproductive. right it's that's complete. nonsense well it's just it's a utopian. perspective yeah you know aggression is. bad toxic male energy is bad yeah until. someone's invading your [ __ ] country. yeah and yeah those are toxic males yeah. I get it but guess what you need some on. your side too and that's the only way we. survive it's the only way we made it to. 2024 that's I mean listen chimpanzees do.

the same thing males will invade a rival. territory and kill off individual males. by ganging up on them this isn't a fair. fight right this is 10 to one beat them. to beat the males rival males to death. from the Rival troop beat them to death. and when they're shrieking in Terror. their buddies in the Rival Troop. don't rush to their aid like humans. would they run away that's the. difference between chimpanzees and. humans is the male Co What's called the.

male Coalition exists in chimpanzee. Society but they don't run to the aid of. their brothers if they're you know when. the chips are down they save themselves. individually humans don't do that we. will rush to help we will rush to help a. a brother who's in danger as it were. right like even at risk of our own Liv. it's one of the few unique traits that. human has humans have that other mammals. don't which is probably how we made it. yeah exactly no because we're better off.

in a group even a group in a desperate. situation and but chimpanzees the the. Rival troop that's getting beaten to. death one by one eventually they're. wiped out because they will not form. they don't form a coalition to defend. only to attack they'll form a coalition. to attack but not to defend right so. what happen happens is the the more. aggressive troop of. chimpanzees wipes out the males of the. Rival troop one by one because they the.

the rivals won't form a coalition to. defend and then they take over the. territory all the food resources of that. territory and the. females and now the aggressive troop of. chimpanzees is now bigger and stronger. and those genes will be passed on at a. higher rate than the genes of the poor. bastards who got beaten to death one by. one right that's how Darwinism works and. that's why aggression exists in the. world there's a genetic reward for it.

and that's why we're here and that's why. we're here and and this is all God's. plan and then human culture that's right. that's right it's all God's and human. culture came up with this extraordinary. thing is like you know what guys we're. all one thing we're this tribe we're. that tribe we we have to fight to the. last man to defend each other and defend. our families blah blah blah because. otherwise we're not going to make it cuz. the [ __ ] Vikings are coming over the. ridge right so who's with me know. Braveheart you know whatever I there's a. endless stories about that kind of. heroism like we're all together we'll.

die together if we have to but we are. all together right and that's a unique. uniquely human trait yeah it certainly. is and the problem is when. you have a utopian perspective and you. want everyone like I'm Not Dangerous I. want the world to not be dangerous right. the problem is the world dangerous and. it's genetically dangerous it's like. it's always been dangerous it's just. this is what it is and I think we're in. this enormous process it's certainly.

much better to live today at least it is. here than it would be during the time of. DOI if you live back then it's uh you. have less information it's D more. dangerous people have more control of. people they're cruler it's more common. things get better over time but it's a. slow slow process yeah yeah that's right. and we're in the middle of it that's. right and you know we we look back and. we say oh those fools but in the future.

they're going to look back at us and say. the same goddamn thing the same way we. look at gask Khan they're going to look. at us like what the [ __ ] did they do in. Ukraine what the [ __ ] did Israel do in. Gaza what the [ __ ] is going on in Sudan. what the [ __ ] is going on in wherever. fill in the blank anywhere in the world. yeah that's right and you know there is. some hope like sort of alliances blunt. some of this stuff like so there is some. there there there is a sort of cultural. Evolution from the sort of like uh.

ancestral The ancestral ancestral. origins of the species right and so. they're you know alliances. do often stabilize things which is which. is great me that's a good thing but. again alliances can also precipitate. conflict so whatever yeah yeah it's uh. it's a complex mixture of things. happening and I think it again not to. get too like woo woo spiritual but I. think that's a part of our journey a.

part of our journey is nag navigating. the the good and evil right that's right. these are real forces that's right yeah. um I will be killed publicly executed. like Dusty almost was by my publisher if. I don't say the name of my book I know. you don't want that happen say it now I. definitely don't want you get killed. especially after what you've been. through In My Time of Dying how I came. face to face with the idea of an. afterlife all right man well listen. brother it's always great to see you I'm.

glad you're livek you I really I really. enjoy these conversations we've had me. too man me too I they're they're really. wonderful thanks for having me on and. having such a great long talk about all. this stuff my pleasure did you read the. audio book I did yes good beautiful so. you got to listen to it on the treadmill. yes I will do that thank you very much. man thanks for being here I appreciate. you my pleasure all right bye everybodyy. [Applause]. [Music].