Joe Rogan Experience #2137 - Michelle Dowd

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day so thanks for coming in Michelle. thanks Joe for having me my pleasure I. love your man cave oh thank you I really. do it's awesome yeah it's it's fun um so. when I heard your story I was like this. sounds completely insane and um just to. fill people in.

just explain what. happened well I was born into a Cults a. high control group that I didn't know to. call a cult because you know I was born. there a child that was my whole. experience my grandfather started in. 1931 so my mother was also Born Into the. Colt in the 1940s my dad was um let's. just say he was 12 when he first met my. grandfather who would later become his. father-in-law and my grandfather became. his Father Figure so my mom was married.

off to. this uh man who was a follower of her. father and I am the second child of. their Union. wow and yeah where where did all this. take place so this took place um that he. originally started it near La in. Pasadena which most people know because. of the Rose Parade and other things like. that um when he first started it it. started my understanding is he was a boy. scout leader.

and he was an orphan he had come from. Oklahoma when he was a young man and uh. the Boy Scouts didn't allow him to have. as much control as he wanted to have. over the boys oh boy so yeah which is a. lot of control so he left the Boy Scouts. and he took the boys with him and some. of the boys from his original troop in. 1931 stayed with him past his death one. of the first boys took over after him in. the late 1980s wow or the early 1980s. actually yeah so he was really good at. getting followers.

what was his background like what what. did he what did he do before he did all. this nothing nothing he was complet I. don't think he graduated from high. school I don't know that for sure he. lied about everything and he said he had. a PhD from Stanford later when he yeah. it wasn't until I got to college I. thought no this just I'm not even 100%. sure he knew how to read to be quite. honest really um he came from a family. where uh he was the only child that. lived out of his particular mother who.

was married to a man it was a second. marriage and his first wife had died and. then you know he had a bunch of kids or. whatever so he had a bunch of half. siblings but no full siblings and. apparently now this could be lore too. they kind of excommunicated him he. compared himself to. Joseph you know like of the multicolored. yeah uh clothing and everything so he. was like put down a well he liked to say. and um he escaped and he came to La uh. in the height of you know the silent. films things like that he said he was in. silent films there's no chance that is.

true but he said he was and he got some. sort of probably Church education when. he got here and he declared to everyone. he was the prophet of God he was going. to live 500 years and he was going to. lead the army of God in the second. coming wow and that's your grandpa. that's my. grandpa it cly is oh my god. wow yeah you can't pick your grandpa no.

you can't no but it was a male. Organization for a very long time it was. all men and it wasn't until all men all. men it was all men it was from 1931 to. 1966 when my Mom married my father no. one was allowed to get married there. they and they were all presumably. celibate and it was just men oh my God. presumably presumably it's like prison. yeah gave for this day absolutely so I. was raised by a bunch of older men who. had never been with a woman um oh.

how well that ended and um but he didn't. want his daughter to be an old maid and. she was getting older she was 24 by the. time he married her off to my dad and at. that point um I think the women like his. wife said you know it was his their. fourth child they had three boys first. and so this was his first daughter and. he decided that since the world had not. yet ended that maybe he should marry her. off before she either became an old maid. or maybe a loose woman who knows when. did he think the world was going to end. well he's used to prophesy 1977 you want.

some more fire sure love some. fire I'll keep this over here if you. want it's easy to use just push that. thing down where I come from this is a. grave sin by the way oh a woman smoking. a cigar anyone anyone smoking are you. drink coffee yes what what was the rules. um well coffee is interesting because I. don't know that they said out loud you. could drink coffee but I don't remember. it being forbidden that the body is the. temple of God and that there's no.

marking your body with ink no piercing. your ear I know I have a lot of ink. myself I wasn't sure if I should show it. off um and no piercing in the ears right. no piercing the ears what about makeup. no makeup when I was young they also. unusually uh cut off women's hair at. least during the era that I was there. now there was an cut it off like a boy's. hair yes mhm my mom had the sex same. haircut since she got married until she. died the exact same haircut she died in. 2022.

yeah so just a lot of the femininity was. um considered a temptation to the boys. in sense it was supposed to be they. thought it was better to you know burn. in hell than to lust after a woman and. they quoted some stuff from Paul you. know in the apostles and the Epistles. and um that basically you could get. married as opposed to lust and so um. eventually in in the 1960s they allowed. their first wedding which is 35 years. think about that 35 years years of cacy.

of all yeah just a bunch of dudes. wow it is just absolutely fascinating to. me how some people develop these groups. and how they do it and like what the. characteristics of the leaders are it's. it's it's so weird um there's a place. out here called um the One World Theater. and uh it used to be owned by a cult uh. that there's a docu on called holy hell.

and uh this guy had started a cult in. Los Angeles he was a yoga teacher but he. was also a gay porn star and a. hypnotist it's a nice combo it's a great. combo for a documentary the documentary. is incredible you watch documentary like. what the hell and uh he was running from. the cult awareness Network so he changed. his name his original name was haime. Gomez um he changed his name I forget. what it was he had like two different. names so I think one was Michelle and.

there was another one so and then he. came out here to Austin because right. after Waco they were kind of cracking. down on Cults and they were trying to. find yeah so they're like we got to go. so the cult awareness network was on to. him because also family members were. calling in hey we lost our children. they're with this guy and he's crazy and. you know they got the people in the. woods in LA and so he moved out to. Austin and had his followers build him. this theater where he could dance in. front of them wow yeah and so dancer it.

was like he was a very handsome guy and. he was very charismatic and he was like. ripped he was a yoga instructor had a. six-pack he was beautiful man and um I. think he and he also was a kind of. exotic looking so he had this like Guru. thing going on you know and then he was. also a hypnotist so he's like really. good at manipulating people's. Consciousness and there and uh that. might be a criteria for being a Quil. Leader by the way the charismatic um. maybe a form of hypnotist like you have.

to be able to manipulate Consciousness. because if you if people at least your. top leaders have to be indoctrinated if. they are not I mean some people call it. brainwashing you can call what you want. but you you have to have people who. worship you yeah it doesn't work unless. you do of course I think we have a very. narrow idea of what hypnotism is because. of the term I think the term you lock on. the term like oh I want to quit smoking. I'll go to a hypnotist they sit here and. they the clock tick tock tick tock but I.

think there's like states of Mind. melding that happen with people where. you all get sort of locked into a state. of consciousness and I think it happens. in. riots um I think definitely you know. what I'm saying like The Madness of the. crowds there's there's something real. about that if you've ever been in a. chaotic public environment where like. fights break out or something like that. there's a very strange feeling in the. air that leads people to do things that. they would never do before people that.

would never pick up a shopping cart and. throw it through a Starbucks window will. do that now it's like everybody just. loses their [ __ ] mind and um it I. think it happens in concerts when people. are like jamming out together you all. get in the same like mind frequency and. I think a really good cult leader does. that too I think they get these people. and they lock them into this way of. thinking and it we're you know we don't. want to call it hypnotism but I think. there's a lot of states that are very. similar to hypnotism in that something.

happens where you enter into an altered. state of consciousness that's probably. accessible somehow or another but you. don't know how to get there but then. this song brings you there or this. person brings you there with their talk. about the impending apocalypse and we're. all locked in you know and it gives. people like a sense of belonging and. purpose that you're locked into this. frequency that everybody else in the. room is locked into it's very comforting. I mean there are a lot of things about a. cult that are very comforting yeah uh I.

think that's the I'm sorry but I think. that's the positive benefit of religion. absolutely you know it's like this this. thing comforts you and even if even if. like it's like some of them's got to be. wrong someone's got to be wrong or if. you have a hundred different ones and. they're all different gods and different. people somebody's got to be wrong but. the one common denominator that they. share is that if you do believe in these. things it seems to Aid you in life. people seem to be happier they seem to. have more of a sense of purpose they. they don't feel lost you know like some.

of the least happy people I know are. atheists and it's I have a joke about it. where I say You're really dumb for not. believing in stupid [ __ ] because if you. believed in stupid [ __ ] if you believed. in dumb [ __ ] you'd be happier that would. be a smarter move CU it's kind of true. and I think that's what's so fascinating. to me about these Cults is how they do. it how they lock people in I mean I'm. sure because of your experience You'. probably seen a few of these. documentaries right you seen I.

definitely have and you know when I. watched the reenactment of the Waco one. which is not the documentary but the did. you read uh watch the one is it came out. maybe five years ago no no but they. showed you know the children and uh how. they didn't want to leave you know they. and just how difficult there was a child. psychologist who worked with them. afterwards and I was very interested in. that because it takes a long time to. undo uh the level of I mean it's one. thing to have a faith right like. believing and you can call it ship but. whatever you believe in it's one thing.

to have a faith but to not have the. ability to think for yourself and to. that to be trained out of you so I went. to um lunch a couple days ago with. someone I hadn't seen since I was three. and he um so a lot of a fellow former. field members have come out of the. woodwork since we should tell her right. field is the name of the group yes we. called ourselves the fields and one of. these forers members who I won't name um. I hadn't seen I didn't I didn't. recognize him at all I just hadn't seen. him since I was a little kid but several.

of them have come out who knew my. parents and of course knew my. grandfather before I was born and then. maybe knew me when I was a little teeny. girl and they have lots of stories. anyway he was on one of these things we. called the trip with the capital T and. what we did on the trip I mean there. were different things in different years. but this one was in the early 1970s and. he was um you know doing all the things. you do on the trip but one thing they. required which my father required of us. at home too is to run every morning. first thing in the morning which you can. say there's some good things about this. but you slept together in tense and then.

you'd get up and you'd run and you'd. have to beat your time and my father. used to time us as a kid so like I had. to beat my time every day which is. really hard to do of course because at. some point you're not going to be able. to beat your time right like you can't. always get better but at this point um. he was 19 and he um was beating the time. he said in that time was it in relation. to the fastest runner and so if the. fastest guy was going really you know. fast you had to keep the same ratio of. distance so anyway he didn't make his. time there were three guys who didn't.

make their time and they had to go. through the swap machine so my grandpa. often made boys go through the swap. machine and the simple version which was. done at the actual location of the field. was you'd crawl through men's the other. boys or men's legs and every boy would. spank you I know I know oh my God I know. they're little well we won't even get. into all the things you can think about. that but there was a different version. that was only done when the boys were. separated from their parents and so when. they would go on these trips and my dad. was the original driver he started. started driving um by the time he was 18.

he was driving all around the country. taking my grandfather's boys so again my. father was not his son he was just some. dude who like you know joined to this. cult and my father would drive these. boys around and he would time them when. they ran and did all those things and so. in this particular case um they did swap. machine where you have to hold on to a. fence pole and you face the fence and. then all the guys come and they hit you. so they're not just spanking you but. they're hitting you and so he was. getting kidney punches and all this. stuff and he was saying he fell to his. knees and he was he was he almost died.

he was so bruised up and and he um he. was he did not want anyone to know this. star he hasn't spoken of it because he's. so ashamed that potentially someone. might think why didn't you fight back. and of course I said but you were. trained not you trained that you. deserved this you know and and then. apparently um one of my uncles you know. was really worried when to take him to. the hospital but couldn't or didn't. because they had no insurance and um. this young man who's no longer a young.

man um said that you know he could never. tell his parents and he never to this. day ever told his parents or anyone he. and his brother have never spoken of. their time in the fields um it it is. like this big taboo he got out um maybe. a year later but he was I mean that was. only one of many many many stories he. told me but that one just really struck. me to feel ashamed of that you know like. I I guess for many years I too did not. tell people where I came from because. you feel like you must have done. something um. weak to be a follower and that's just.

not true I mean if if someone gets a. hold of you as a child they can program. you to think almost anything especially. if they're good at it yeah. unquestionably I mean that's why they. have child suicide bombers yes yeah yeah. I mean you you can trick children and. it's uh it's understandable though that. you would think somehow or another that. other people would think that it's your. fault or ignorant people would think why. didn't you know why didn't you leave you. know or people that you know never. really thought about it never thought it.

through cuz they haven't had to right. you know the friends I went out with who. I mean I'm calling them friends now but. I had had seen them since I was a little. girl um they were saying I would have of. course you would drink the Kool-Aid and. when people use that expression I would. have been first in line would have. signed up for that I mean that's we all. would have and I mean that and I was I. was born there and indoctrinated and I. would have completely taken anything. that my grandfather or my parents told. me was going to kill me I would have you. know I would have felt that that was. going take me to Heaven quicker and.

everyone I knew would have done that wow. and the reason you don't hear about a. lot of Cults by the way is because they. didn't end up in Flames or mass suicide. um but that doesn't mean that they. didn't pray on um you know dozens. sometimes hundreds or even thousands of. people depending on the cult I was. talking to Mark Andre and he was. explaining to me that there's still many. many active Cults in California. absolutely and I was like what like. right now like people know about them oh. yeah there they're successful like.

there's some successful Cults mhm yeah. when I first went is the field still. around The Field's still around I've. been told it is a completely different. organization and I'm not going to vouch. one way or the other uh they certainly. don't have a charismatic leader like my. grandfather once he died and his. replacement was there and then once he. died um I think it's become has not. become secular it's a very strong. religious organization but they don't. have the control they used to cuz like. when we were young they we didn't have. social security number there was no way. to track things and now you know you.

it's hard to get away with um you have. to pay taxes yes they do pay taxes and. there was a sexual abuse you know uh. case that was actually prosecuted and I. think after that which I think was 2006. I think that they had to really clean up. a lot of their practices when I'm. hearing these stories about these boys. and the abuse I'm that's what I'm. thinking about I'm thinking if there's a. bunch of boys and no one's allowed to. get. married that that's not a good recipe no. it's not and the particular one that. prosecuted was um a young leader who was.

abusing 11 and 12-year-old boys sexually. um I say out loud I said this to my mom. I said Mom isn't it curious that no. one's ever prosecuted anyone for what. they did to girls and I was a sexual. abuse victim there and I it was. something I was so ashamed of for so. long and anyway but there's other forms. of abuse that go on I mean there's. obviously physical abuse but there's a. lot of psychological abuse there's a lot. of ways that gets inside of you that. you're worthless and that you can't. trust trust yourself and you can't even. trust yourself with your own.

stories and I have um a slightly younger. brother who adores you by the way Thomas. say what's up what's his name his name. is Michael what's up Michael yeah um he. I love him to death and he was raised. you know we were all raised collectively. but we were also raised separate from. each other and my biological siblings we. all had different experiences because. they don't let you Bond they don't they. don't want my um sister who's just a. little bit younger she and I we loved. each other deeply but we weren't allowed. to speak to each other sometimes for. weeks or months at a time oh my God and.

they were just strongly against you. forming what they would call allies they. didn't want friendships that could turn. into anything that would be a little bit. um probably culty but no uh like. anything that would form um a click they. used to call it right any other groups. where the another person could be in. control right or they could discuss. who's in control yes or any loyalty to. anyone else other than the primary. leader. there's a lot of ways that this that you.

can indoctrinate people and make them. police themselves oh yeah that's what. North Korea does yeah North Korea gets. everybody to rat on everybody else oh. yeah that was huge where I come from I. have um I felt like it was a huge. compliment one of the former members. came out of the Woodworks after this and. he said you know I knew that you would. never rat us out and I was like man. that's so great but I mean it was. something we were all taught so so so. deeply that yeah that you you have to no. matter if this is your brother or your. sister or your mom you have to tell on.

them you have to because your keeps. everybody scared all the time you never. trust anyone God that's so it's so. Insidious and yet also brilliant like. it's evil it's evil but it's how did he. figure out how to do it that's what's. crazy and how was he able to pull it off. that's what's always so fascinating to. me that it's not like children with. children it just makes 100% sense you're. raised there you think this is reality. and you think that the world outside.

reality is all bunch of evil demons or. whatever it is but if you're an adult. like you're a grown adult 34 year old. man and you meet this dude at the auto. repair shop and he hands you a pamphlet. and the next thing you know you're on a. farm somewhere like how do those people. so I can't vouch to that I will say that. the unusual thing about the field is you. have to join as a child there are no. adults who join you they it's kind of. like a pyramid scheme when you're um. most people join when five or six and.

they are indoctrinated and then they. play sports like so for example they. play tackle football at age five and so. they teach everyone how to you know um. Play game but it's only the people who. are really good at the game that they. continue to court I would say you could. call them groom whatever but it's. there's a lot more kids there than um. we'll ever get into the inner circles. and it's a little like the mob or. something like I was born in the Inner. Circle but there are plenty of people. who came out of that cult who honestly.

weren't harmed by it because they got. out young so as long as you get out by. the age of 12 you're probably okay um. but they don't keep you unless you're. really fully indoctrinated and most of. the people who stay really don't have a. family to go back to and they separate. you from your family and so they do more. and more separation as you become a. teenager by the time you're 18 you're. signing a commitment for life form Jesus. and I'm not saying that's happening now. but that was 100% happened not during my. not just during my era but all the. decades prior to me so it's not just a. cult but it's like it's got a sort of a.

meritocracy built into it yeah but I. think a lot of Cults have that really I. think so yeah yeah I mean you have. something people out that don't line up. enough yeah um so Colts in general kick. people out in fact they want you to. believe that staying is hard and that. you have to work hard to stay I think. the misconception is that they're trying. to get you in sure they're seducing you. in some way there's some sort of calling. card whether it's a pamphlet or. something else but you're there do I. have what I know I said class yeah. exactly exactly yeah dancing you know.

but whatever brings you in but then. after that it's like you're the strong. one you're the special one for choosing. to stay in this particular cult they. always would say there's 20 of you in. this room 19 of you will fall away. there's only one of you who boy you know. will make it into the army of God jeez. it's like the Navy Seals of Cults it. kind of is and there is a lot of. physical. yeah they only want the best of the best. so if you a child and you're in I mean.

how first of all how could anybody ever. expect a child who gets indoctrinated. into that to know the difference if. that's if that's your reality and that's. what you grow up with how how could you. possibly know what I what year are we. talking about when you were like eight. years old um that would have been the. early uh late '70s yeah so nobody knows. what the hell's going on oh absolutely. not even in the world exactly it's a the. whole thing's a big foggy Haze there's.

no internet the world's we have like one. tenth of access to information that we. do today and and you're also a child and. you think that this is reality and. parents were used to their kids being. gone all the time and I think that that. was not something unusual cuz one thing. I hear uh for kids who went there people. say well how did your parents allow that. and I mean parents like they sent them. off to the sports place and then their. kid got really into it and then at some. point their kid became a teenager and. didn't want to come home anymore and I. mean they're like well I don't think my. kids drugs or I don't think that they're. like in prison so it seems like they're.

doing pretty well but also seems like. societally there was a shift at some. point in time where uh what was the year. where more women entered the workforce. and more women started getting jobs so. that happened in the 70s I think 1973. might have been like one of those I mean. obviously was starting to happen in the. 60s but there was a lot of women at home. in the' 60s um around 1973 to 1979 you. had a huge GE Exodus of women out of the.

home the women I come from I mean like. my grandmother who had my father who um. joined to this cult she was always a. working woman minimum wage working woman. she didn't have more than eighth grade. education she worked because her father. I excuse me her my dad's father her. husband had been um in World War II and. got you know pretty severe PTSD or. whatever was an alcoholic and beat her. and so she ran away from him she just. had one child which was my father she. was living in chicken coup near La just.

with this one son and she was the first. woman to get hired in a factory but this. was in the 1940s so there were always. women of course and lots of women of. color who were working but it wasn't the. middle class women who were working but. the poor women were always working right. um I'm just thinking like latch key kids. at that point back then 70s and even 80s. yeah it was totally common all my. friends we just got let out of the house. when we were kids right you just got on. the bus went to school walked home from. school the bus hung out with your. friends nobody knew where you were right.

so you could have been an Ault and your. parents would have not necessarily known. I think I would have told them well but. I could have got sucked into one that's. the point it's like everybody looks at. themselves as who they are today so if. you're a 35-year-old man and you're. listening to this today you're like I. wouldn't get sucked into that that you. can't say that cuz you you're not a. 5-year-old boy if you're a 5-year-old. boy you don't know what the [ __ ] is. going on you're a child by the time. you're 18 you sort of get a especially. if you're a little StreetWise like all.

right some people are shady I know what. the [ __ ] going on listen to this guy. he's trying to rope me in um I remember. there was this Christian group when I. was in college that was uh trying to. indoctrinate people and they were um. they they were like young goodlooking. people and uh there was this this. beautiful Puerto Rican girl and uh she. was always trying to get me to go to. parties with her and I was like wow did. I hit that Jack [ __ ] like eventually I'm. going to get a date with this girl like.

this is amazing you know I was probably. 1920 I guess 20 21 maybe and um one day. um she invites me to go to this Retreat. on the weekend like they have some some. crazy Christian retreat and I'm like oh. my God a retreat like she's not telling. me it's a Christian retreat she's. telling me it's like this fun party and. this whole thing and I said I can't I. have plans this weekend I go but if you. guys ever do another one of those things.

that sounds like fun so Monday morning. or whatever the day was I'm in school. and we're all in the cafeteria and it. was the day that Trump's airplane the. the landing gear failed to. open and so uh we all sit down at the. the lunch table and I had just seen it. on the news I said did you see this. thing on the news about the plane it's. crazy like the landing gear didn't. didn't go out and so the plane just on. the belly of the the plane skid across. the runway and there's all these crazy.

Sparks and I go but nobody died and they. go oh praise God praise God and I was. like what like what's going on here this. super hot Puerto Rican girl's like oh. praise God and they're all praise God. praise God and then I'm like oh and then. it just immediately clicked you dummy. they were trying to get you to go to. their church thing you thought she liked. you and then they started talking to me. more about God and then I was like oh I. got to go I got a class I got to get out. of here like [ __ ] so you didn't get that.

date no no I avoided them they were in. my Italian class and they were learning. how to speak Italian and I I avoided. them I was like I can't I can't be I. just can't I can't be involved in this. because they were all glossy they were. all like they were all believers not. this is not saying that God's not real. this is not saying that Christianity is. not true that's not what I'm saying what. I'm saying is you could have got those. people with Scientology you could have. got those people with Mormonism you have. got those people with the Moonies.

whatever they were just looking for a. thing that they could attach themselves. to and then formulate their identity. based around this thing and for them it. was Christianity and it was this like. youthful form of Christianity where. they're trying to get young people. they're making it like Retreats we're. going to have we're going to party and. they were all socially odd they were all. real awkward people was really it was. very interesting though to me a person. who's always curious about human beings. I was like this is why wild like hanging. around well I think in high control.

groups they do tend to obviously cater. to the young I mean they they're. soliciting the young and I want to be. clear too you I'm not anti-religion I. think High control groups SL Cults are a. whole different experience and yes they. use religion but they don't teach you to. have faith and to trust yourself in your. faith they teach you to follow someone. else's faith I used to have a joke about. what's the difference between a cult and. religion where a cult is created by one. guy and he knows it's [ __ ] in a. religion that guy's dead.

yeah and all the other people all the. other people that this [ __ ] dude. 2,000 years ago convinced but some. religions are really beneficial and they. might in fact be based on some kind of. true story I think it's a game of. telephone that's what I think I think if. you tell me a story and I tell Jamie the. story and then Jamie tells someone out. in the lobby of Story by the time it. gets to me all the way again it's going. to be screwed up right sure now imagine. this over thousands of years of just.

oral tradition and then writing in Lost. languages like ancient Hebrew they wrote. them in Aramaic on animal skins some of. these stories like the Dead Sea Scrolls. and then they eventually translate them. to Latin and Greek and Roman into. English into German. like what Lost in Translation also like. what did they know like how much did. they know they they had some idea ideas. of like the formation of the universe in.

the beginning there was light it sounds. a lot like the big bang yeah sounds a. lot like if you would tell the Big Bang. to your kids and your kids would tell to. their kids and you're going to do this. for a thousand years at the end of it. you're going to get some real people are. gross they always like to like twist. things around and make things you know. they add their own little spice to a. story like if you ever have a friend. that tells a story like hey bro that. didn't happen that way like you didn't. say that you [ __ ] ran for cover like. everybody got their own of a.

story if you got oral Traditions 100%. for sure you're going to have a lot of. that especially when you have high. control groups like your grandfather. your the translations too like we even. when the monks were translating all that. and like our um like they were scribes. and they were inscribing it like all of. that too there was an agenda on a lot of. that yeah and then when you we read the. King James version of the Bible I mean. you know the king pronounced it to be so. and so any anything that was left out I.

mean there was a lot left out right and. what was canonized because it was. perhaps dangerous to the particular. regime that he was running and so not to. say that true you get to decide yes I. know you get to decide decide what God. meant yeah I think God didn't mean any. of. that take that stuff out um my qu my. problem is never with religion my. problem is purely with human nature and. what we know about about humans if there. was a way that you got religion through.

some sort of non-human. Source like if you achieved your. experience through a non-human Source I. would go okay well maybe there's a place. that you can go and you could actually. go meet God there's like a portal you. walk through and you meet God but as. soon as you're doing you're letting. people tell you a story people are full. of [ __ ] they just generally generally at. least a certain percentage are full of. [ __ ] the people that want to control. people have a much higher likelihood of.

being full of [ __ ] because to really do. that correctly like if you want to be a. president like you got to lie you got to. lie it's like really important so the. the people that are like good at that. job are generally full of [ __ ] and so. then you have a problem with the. interpretation of the past right you're. you're seeing that right now in. universities like people are trying to. reinterpret certain events because of. the way people feel about sociopolitical. issues today so trying to re reinterpret. history take down statues there's a lot.

of like craziness that's going on today. well that's like a microcosm of the. ancient history of human. beings it's it's not that God's not real. it's that people are full of [ __ ] and so. there's some a lot of wisdom in a lot of. these ancient religious texts in. particular which is really fascinating. like how much that they know about The. Human Experience how much did they know. about how you need to live your life in. order to be harmonious with the universe. how do you how do you like how do you.

accentuate positive experiences how do. you leave the world a little bit better. than it was before you got here and. that's have you have you read whole. Bible by the way I did when I was a kid. I actually had Bible class in Florida. when I moved from when I moved from uh. San Francisco to Florida I was 11 years. old and it was a complete polar opposite. experience of the country I lived in San. Francisco with two parents that were.

hippies in hate Ashbury so we were in. the middle of like we lived near Lumbard. Street we were in the middle of like the. hippie anti-war revolution of the. 1960s and then I moved to Gainesville. Florida my stepdad was going to uh he. was becoming an AR he was a computer. programmer and then he switched careers. became an architect and so he was going. to a University of Florida at. Gainesville and so we were there so now. a sudden them around alligators there's.

[ __ ] alligators everywhere it was. like what are you are you people. [ __ ] why do you have Giant Monsters. Everywhere this is so ridiculous so we. had alligators um super weird swampy. weather and religion religion was in the. schools like in public school you had. Bible class and they also paddled you. was the first time I I'd ever been hit. by a teacher they I got in a fist fight. with this kid and they whacked us with a. paddle. um but ask you alra a question real.

quick so when you were in Florida in the. 1970s were you there in the late 1970s. it was let me see so I was in 67 I was. born so I in 73 I was in San Francisco. so 75 76 okay did you know someone whose. name is Ross Allen in Florida I no idea. I was 11 well he was older like he would. have he he was an alligator yeah he he's. an alligator wrestler he had an allig. Farm alligator wrestlers what's the. [ __ ] what's the lifespan on those.

fellas well I don't know when I don't. know when he died but um yeah that. doesn't seem like that would work out so. well well they probably defanged him I. don't know they even that they're just. going to break your arms off speaking of. which I need more fire oh so yeah grab. that sucker right there and pull the top. back flip it around the other side like. this this way this way this way the. other way this way no the other way it's. upside down see this there you go now. see the top uh pull it sucker back like. that like.

there pull it down pull it down I cannot. believe how that no it's not open you. got to open the top flip that top no no. no look see this with my hand oh my God. I know there you go you got it see I. feel like I came here to learn this. perfect thank you yeah it's a little. weird because it's all black and so it. kind of Blends in especially if you're. like us and your eyes are probably. going as time goes. on like now I can do it myself there's. not a chance in hell I could ever do one.

of those clasps on a like a bracelet. those little tiny bracelets like them. little clasps like if my wife tries to. get me to do one of those I'm like I. don't even know what I'm seeing I have. no idea what that is I see blur I see. golden blur what the [ __ ] that. is um what were we just talking about. well you were talking about learning the. Bible in school but so one of the things. that a lot of people who have read the. Bible or they have read of the Bible I. definitely don't think I read the whole. thing well yeah that's the thing it's.

not very many people do and that's why I. asked because a lot of it is is kind of. tedious history and there's a lot of. Heats and there's a whole line you know. of Christ all the ancestors and the the. whole delineation of all that and um. where I come from we were encouraged to. read like a verse of the Bible but they. would always tell you what it meant. right and so I kind of went against I. used this little pinl and like did it. like late at night but I read the whole. thing cover to cover when I was eight. and if you read like every single book. in order you start to find that there's.

a lot of really beautiful beautiful. beautiful you know places in the Bible. but there's a lot of stuff that's really. violent and then there's a lot of stuff. that contradicts itself and it's because. it was written in different time periods. by different authors and different. languages and it also has a historical. context and so generally there's a lot. of stuff that people leave out when they. teach the Bible because it's really hard. to explain like what stuff well there's. um for example I mean this one's taught. a little bit but but David King David. I'm sure you've heard of him like as of. David and Goliath but then he became a.

powerful King and he saw this woman who. this woman is often talked about basba. he sees her bathing on a roof and where. we came from we were TI like she. shouldn't have been bathing on the roof. now I. don't right anyway he he demands that. she come to him and she is the wife of a. soldier of his named Uriah a top Soldier. and He commands her to lie with him and. she becomes pregnant and then King David. who is the same guy who had the.

slingshot of David and Goliath decides. that he's got to figure out how to get. her husband back so that her husband can. go sleep with her and her husband won't. do it because he's loyal to the Army and. he's he comes back but he sleeps like at. the floor of the castle you know trying. to wait a minute he's trying to get the. husband to go back with the wife so that. she the pregnancy will seem like it's. his oh boy yeah so in the Bible in the. Bible dirty David yeah exactly and it. doesn't even in there so Uriah won't it. cuzu is loyal to David oh boy and so.

then David sends him to the front lines. to have him be killed oh boy so that he. can marry his wife and get away with. that child's not being um B illegitimate. oh boy and then God kills the child. because you know needs to make the point. that David was and think about poor B. Sheba I mean she's just been like rung. around her husband gets killed all these. things her GID dies because God is. punishing David and her husband got. killed because he was loyal to the guy. who got her pregnant absolutely that's. not a story a lot of people hear oh my.

God but you can fact check that one if. you'd like oh no I believe you I'm good. at that I'm good at just okay now I'll. go argue it I mean there's something I I. talk a little bit about in the in the. book forager which I encourage everyone. to read but in that book I talk about. has a kid that I looked up this whole. long you know he beat he beat and. there's only four times that it mentions. a woman who a child came out of like. it's all the mail line but occasionally. they'll say so and so you know Bo. through Ruth or David's the father. through basba so basba ended up having a.

child who became Solomon who we know um. a lot of people know at least of being. um the wisest man who ever lived and he. wrote Ecclesiastes and yeah and so. there's four women who are named and as. a child that was really interesting to. me and I would ask you know why are. these four women in the line of Christ. and no one would tell me and so I. started doing the research about that. and one was a prostitute one um oh. here's a story you don't hear a lot want. to hear another Bible story sure there. was a woman named Tamar and she had been. married to uh one of three sons I think.

there was three and uh her husband died. before giving her a child so as was the. custom in the time and perhaps the law. she married the brother of her dead. husband and that man would not give her. a child because he didn't want to have a. child in his brother's name and so. they're allowed to have more than one. wife but this woman was not allowed to. have a child so he does something they. call onanism so he like spilled his seed. on the ground instead of inside of her.

that she couldn't have a baby and so God. gets really mad because Oden will not. impregnate her and so Onin gets killed. too and so then her father-in-law. decides not to marry her off to the. youngest brother because two of the. brothers are already dead right and he. doesn't want to lose his only son so he. just banishes her and she has nothing. because what does a woman have at the. time and she doesn't have a husband or a. child she has no ability to make a. living in the world and so this man is. um the father-in-law is really unkind to.

her in a way that she decides she needs. to take something into her own hands and. so she dresses up like a prostitute and. goes to the side of the road and as he's. traveling on the road she puts herself. in front of him and and offers her. services and he sleeps with her and he. does not have payment on him for some. reason and so he gives her his staff. which is um a token of his word or. something so at least he's paying his. prostitute and uh she gets pregnant from. this and he orders her when he finds out. she's pregnant to be stoned to death you. know to be killed and executed because.

you know she's not allowed to have a. baby outside of wedlock and she said. okay but let me just return this staff. to you that um I got from the father of. the baby and so then he ends up. protecting her and she gets to have the. child and that child is in the line of. Christ whoa yeah so really interesting. things I don't know what you're supposed. to learn from that story um when I was a. kid reading this I would ask and of. course no one really wanted to tell me. because she was reward wed for that. that's the interesting thing it's the. stories are crazy it's it's just if.

you're being honest and if you believe. in God but you also know that people are. full of [ __ ] you have to put all this. stuff through a filter you just have to. and it doesn't mean that there's no. God of course it doesn't mean that it. just it means there's probably something. in these stories but we have to be real. careful with what that something is well. and I don't profess to know I don't I. don't know why they condone slavery the. Bible condone slavery like flat out it's.

in there all the time like yes women are. essentially second class citizens and. you know what I found out recently that. there was a woman before. Eve depending on who you. ask yeah so what what was that one well. that's not in the 66 books of the Bible. that most people are taught in the. Protestant tradition or the 69 or. whatever in the Catholic tradition um. that's part of the Apocrypha so they. these are books of the Bible that didn't. make it. into you know Christianity as such that.

we the editor's cut today yeah was an. editor's cut exactly so that's not. considered the word of God what you're. reading that is considered or what you. heard it's like word on the street word. on the street I heard of the internet. but yeah okay that's a street these days. yeah it is it's the best street yeah. which is not to say it's not true I I. don't know the truth so I'm a yoga. teacher among other things and one thing. that I say all the time when I'm. teaching which is really common thing is. a yoga teacher to say is whatever I am. giving you right now is um a suggestion.

so listen to your body do what's great. for you if this doesn't feel right to. you please don't do it um and then you. offer modifications Etc and what high. control religion does and I'm not saying. all religion I'm saying the culty. religion doesn't give you the option of. listening to your body or opting out of. anything this is the interpretation of. the word of God and the one thing I will. say is I don't know why Tamar did what. she did or why Onin did what he did you. know I I don't know whether or not the. stories were transcribed accurately or.

not even if they were like I that is a. different culture right and was I'm not. it wasn't there we don't even know if OJ. did it right so how are you going to. know what happened to David and B Sheba. I mean we're pretty sure he did. it well but I was just reading some. story that OJ hired thugs to M there was. another thing there was some thing that. he said that he hired thugs to kill his. wife and Ron. Goldman so this is really recent is my. point and there's a bunch of versions of. it and it depends on who gets into Power.

whatever version gets propagated right. like if you if there was no internet and. no independent journalism and they never. had to account for the fact that Iraq. never really had weapons of mass. destruction if the people in charge if. we're living in 1963 how long does it. take before people figure out that Iraq. didn't have those weapons how long do we. ever find out I don't know I was going. to say you might not ever find out you. might not ever find out it took forever. to just figure out that the Gulf of. tonum was a false flag that got us into.

Vietnam right I mean it took decades for. that to come out and now that's widely. accepted so our own history is sketchy. as [ __ ] our own history our real. absolute history is sketchy as [ __ ] yeah. and that's why conspiracy theories are. so fun oh yeah of course and and in a. sense a cult is just a whole conspiracy. theory I mean like but they control the. narrative completely control the. narrative and no one's allowed to. question and if they do they're. excommunicated and one of the ways you. know something as a cult is that they.

will always tell you that anyone who. left it's different than Outsiders I. mean Outsiders are people who maybe had. never had access to the truth but people. who are quitters they literally call. them quitters where I come from quitters. quitter I know it really is nobody likes. quitters right right and so quitters. were just anything they said was of the. devil and so you were not allowed to. talk to anyone who left and that's. really common in Cults just you couldn't. even talk to them yeah that's that's a. Scientology thing too I believe right. yeah I think it's really common in any. High control group I'm sure yeah because.

you can't you really do need to control. the narrative and you can't let other. stories get in there yeah. wow God damn it's so interesting how. these patterns. reoccur all over the world you know. there's a guy in Australia that says. he's Jesus and uh he runs this whole. cult in Australia and he has this woman. who he says is Mary but the problem is. there was another woman who was married. before and it didn't work out with the.

original Mary. so so he tells this new lady I was wrong. about that other lady you're Mary and so. do you know that they say that the. translation for Mary actually was woman. oh wow and so that the word possibly. just means I mean you think about it. there's so many Marys in the Bible like. people talk about Mary Magdalene or Mary. the mother of Jesus or you know that it. um perhaps it's just the translation for. Woman Jesus as a historical figure is. controversial there's people that say. that there's absolute evidence for Jesus.

but then there's people that say do you. know like how much historical record we. have on people that lived thousands of. years before. Jesus you know there's there's people. that lived that they they know what they. said they know where they ate they know. where they went they know so much about. them but the Jesus one is kind of. there's people that say yes there's. historical uh documents that show he. existed and then there's a bunch of. documentaries that you can watch they're. like boy the the evidence is kind of.

sketchy it seems to be a thought like a. reoccurring thing in many religions it. seems to be like Hercules right it seems. to be there's a bunch of these that are. like real similar to that like the child. of a God you know that comes down to fix. everything there's a lot of traditions. where you have a virgin birth that is. true and I am certainly not here to tell. anybody what is true and not true but. the gospels that are written about Jesus. were written after right not during and. that was you know Common I mean Socrates.

never wrote anything down he told the. stories to Plato and and how long after. his death well I think the first one now. I feel like I I am not um a storian here. but I think the first one was like a 100. years and so you have Apostle Paul who. wrote but he only saw Jesus after like. he was on the road to Damascus and so he. saw Jesus after Jesus had been crucified. and risen so what he saw was a ghost of. Jesus but the the other you know gospels. were not written by anyone who had seen.

Jesus in that way even though they were. the versions like of when you have. Matthew Mark Luke and John these are the. versions that they were told so I don't. know maybe 100 years yeah so this is. where. belief hits for people that are. listening to this right now because. there's going to be a certain percentage. of people right now that have their. hackles up because someone might be. insinuating that maybe all this Jesus. stuff is not legit. and that's not what anybody's saying. what we're saying is these stories were.

written down hundred years after he was. alive and people are full of [ __ ] that's. it it doesn't mean that he didn't exist. cuz if someone did exist like if if the. early emergence of humans in the in the. world let's imagine what they mean by. this story if the early emergence of. humans in this world were put down here. to figure it out on their own like a.

bunch of lock key kids like latch key. kids from the 1970s figure it out on. your own I'm going to give you ways to. live your life tell everybody but I'm. hands off I'm hands off I'm an afterlife. type of guy I want you I'm not going to. come down and explain it again pop out. of the clouds and freak everybody out I. did that once I did it once I'm done you. guys killed me so I'm is saying live. your life this way if that was a real.

thing what I. mean what would be any different than. the Bible would would be any different. about the if a real event like that. actually happened where the the the Son. of God came down and explained to. mankind what they're doing wrong and. lived this amazing life and taught so. many people and they spread his wisdom. and they spread his his information it. wouldn't be any different than the Bible. because you're still even if it even if. it was like very clear what he was.

saying and and very clear what he had. done and the impact and how they all. knew he was the son of God by the time a. hundred years go by people talking about. it who the [ __ ] knows who knows yeah but. you know what Jesus did really well so. Jesus didn't write anything down right. like he was a Storyteller Jesus told a. lot of Parables and those are easier to. remember so if you listen to like his. Sermon on the Mount or you know these. various things it's possible that some. of these stories which they can be. interpreted more than one way but like.

you know to say that um have you heard. the expression casting pearls to swine. yes what does that mean well in the. story of the prodical son um there was. this and Jesus tells this story right so. there's these two brothers and one. brother stays and does everything that. his father wants him to do and the other. brother says give me you know the son he. says the younger son says give me my. inheritance now I don't want to wait. till you're dead just give me my. inheritance now I want to go experience. life and the father gives his younger. son his inheritance and this young man.

who is raised well goes out and hires. prostitutes does all the things right. and just and lives this loose life and. he finds that he runs out of money and. he is in a pen of pigs and he is willing. to eat what even the pigs won't eat like. the leftovers and he is face down in the. mud in the in according to the story in. the pig pin and says even if I was a. servant from my father I'd be treated. better than this' and so he goes back. Etc and his older brother is really.

upset because the father brings the son. back and treats him you know he's just. so grateful his son's returning to him. and his brother says you know or an. expression like um you're casting pearls. to swine I mean like my brother is a pig. my brother is like you know from the pig. pin and you're giving him something that. he doesn't deserve and that whole story. I mean you can interpret it any way you. want but this idea that you tell stories. like this and someone could say God is. willing to take you back and perhaps. even better if you have experienced life.

and that just being obedient isn't the. only way to live a life maybe that's the. I don't know what the real. interpretation is right but like when. you read a story like that or you hear. the story Jesus didn't write it down but. if you told that story then now people. come to that and they think what does. that mean does that mean when I find. myself in a pig pin that I can repent. and go back what does it mean isn't it. funny that Jesus is a Storyteller yeah. love a Storyteller is a person who. stands in front of people and commands.

attention and we know how that goes. right yeah well you're a Storyteller. well sort of you don't think you're a. Storyteller um I talk [ __ ] on stage so. it's just jokes and but those are. stories some of them are stories yeah. some of them are just making fun of. things yeah it's different than someone. who like tells you stories and imparts. wisdom like if someone's standing in. front of a group of people imparting. wisdom that's a very bizarre.

relationship it's a a very uh slippery. position for the person that uh has the. podium very slippery cuz you could start. believing all this nonsense you could. start believing that you're different. than everybody else you could start. believing that you are uh the Son of God. even if you're I'm not even talking. about Jesus I'm talking about someone. today someone today even today in this. day and age with the internet if you you. started doing something like that and. you're schizophrenic you could believe. it lots of people lots of people believe. they're the Son of God right now yeah.

100% legit and then lots of people. believe that other people are demons. there's a lot of like real funky beliefs. that people hold on to and if. someone like I said if someone was a. charismatic leader and they pretended to. be the Son of God versus someone who is. actually the Son of God 100 years later. it's going to be very difficult to parse. out what's what right which is a problem. which is a real problem if you want to. like put your eggs in one basket you got. to pick a religion you're like boy if.

you're agnostic you're like which one of. you guys is right cuz there so are the. Hindus right maybe are the Buddhas right. I don't know you know some people would. say that the Buddha and Jesus have an. awful lot in common and if they're is a. right that um a lot of those beliefs are. going to overlap and it is right to live. a good life is to treat other people the. way that you would want to be treated or. to you know to love your neighbor love. your neighbor yeah yeah I think um. there's universal truth in all that. stuff I think the the source of it is.

fascinating like what what are the. universal truths but we always we we. have to look at things through a filter. of reality in the filter of reality we. know human beings are full of [ __ ] so. you have to put that in there you have. to put that with everything you can't. just say they wouldn't lie about. religion stop that's nonsense it doesn't. mean that God's not real it doesn't mean. that Jesus didn't exist cuz may look. maybe Jesus is the. ultimate it's like this is the last word.

and then we're going to let you guys. figure it out on your own and maybe if. God exists okay let's just as a thought. experiment if God exists why would God. engineer an animal to be at the top of. the food chain that is so filled with. greed and wants so much power that it's. willing to take over enormous swaths of. land with giant machines and murder. anybody who gets in their way and it's. all justified in the name of nationalism.

why would God. universally impart that kind of. sensibility on a on a species why would. God tolerate it why would God tolerate. crime and murder and all the horrible. things that we see today why would God. want any of this stuff to go on if God. is so all powerful that he created the. universe is this just a first draft if. you did you like try like say like Free. Will right that's the answer to it is. that in the garden when Adam and Eve.

didn't know the difference and then they. partake of the tree of the knowledge of. Good and Evil that like by the choice to. do that brought sin into the world and. once there's sin into the world then. humans always have the choice to follow. the light or follow the darkness I mean. that's the party line right like that it. is human choice right my point was that. maybe God's ultimate plan is to make. things as [ __ ] up as as possible so. that it forces people to figure it out.

it forces an evolution of Consciousness. it forces us to go to the light it. forces us because it's the only way we. survive like that could it could be like. a test like the entire human species the. entire civilization the whole thing it's. just some gigantic tests to see if you. get it right did you ever read a wrinkle. in time when you were a kid whose book. is that Moline lingal I've heard of it I. don't think I read it okay well it was I. don't know if it was H schools but kids. were at it for year I don't know when it. came out in the 70s probably but she.

says in an interview later that she. thinks that in the end that God is. waiting for every single person to. choose to believe and to choose to. follow and that the light U so in a. wrinkl and time is a story there's. science in it and a lot of things but. that when you see the light and you're. drawn to the light that you might be. tempted by the darkness but when you. really know what light is that you'll. always choose that and so at the end of. the day that we're all going to see the. light but even if you don't believe in.

religion if you know like good. experiences and bad experiences your in. your life and when you're happy with. yourself and when you're upset with. yourself in your life you generally know. like there's a direction that you really. want to be moving in and the more life. experience you have the more stupid. things you do the more you learn and so. the more you get a better database to. draw from to understand what each and. individual Choice means in the the. greater the greater picture of your your. existence and as you go further and.

further you go if you're living a. harmonious life you go almost naturally. towards that direction trying to be. nicer to people love your neighbor have. more peace in the world don't be. murdering people you know and that's. generally like how most religions want. you to believe it's like the the origin. of it there's got there's some sort of a. guide book for being a human. that's the origin of it it seems like. that they were just trying to like you.

can't just let people be feral you got. to give them some guidelines you got to. and one of the best ways is to someone's. watching all the time there's a dude in. the sky but maybe he really is maybe. there really is something that watches. everything it might not be watching but. it might be like integrated into the. entire existence of the the whole thing. maybe that's what the prodical son is. about yeah maybe you know he goes and. has all these experiences find himself. like making every mistake possible and. then sees the light and goes back to his. father yeah and goes back to the kingdom.

of righteous there's wisdom in all these. things and the these people that lived. and were writing things down on animal. skins while they were engaging in wars. with Spears you like [ __ ] wild ass. times and they were trying to sort it. all out have you read uh meditations. Marcus relius yes isn't that wild stuff. yeah that's it's wild how brilliant this. guy was 2,000 years ago like his. understanding of how to live a life. right it's so valuable and his concept.

of forgiveness like forgiveness he's a. [ __ ] Roman I mean this dude is like. this badass Soldier and he's he's like. it's very important to forgive everybody. for even forgive your enemies like he. had this incredible wisdom about just. like. maintaining your objective perspective. of the world was really interesting. so we know people were smart as [ __ ]. back then yeah yeah and if you go back.

2,000 years before him when people start. writing all this stuff down well people. had a a lot stronger ability to. concentrate obviously distracted right. even before right but even before things. were written people really had um. command over language and oral. traditions and their memory they had to. remember like you think about you know. where where to find whatever it is when. you're a forager where to find the hunt. you know that all of these Traditions. have to be passed down for humans to. stay alive I mean we're really fragile.

creatures right and to think that when. before there was anything except for. spheres you know like how did how did. humans stay alive they stayed alive. because they could remember they could. remember what could kill them yeah well. just like we used to be able to remember. phone numbers yeah you remember even. back then I know I had so many phone. numbers in my head I still remember the. phone number of the field I wow I do I. do because you know it was the one place. right that was my home wow yeah that's. wild yeah my mom was a a survival.

trainer uh she trained people to survive. and she trained us to survive and one of. the big things was surviving the. apocalypse but some of the survival. techniques are actually really valuable. and that's the thing about forgiveness. or anything else like you know even if. somebody is telling you something that. is in their own best interest doesn't. mean it's not true right right and that. there's so many truths in anything um. and so learning to survive like. literally off the land or in the desert. or things like that was a really harsh. training that I had as a kid but it.

taught me to look around everywhere that. I've been ever since and to pay. attention and I mean that's a gift and I. think about that when I think about. forgiveness too like part of forgiving. people is because on some level they. taught you a lesson well even in Cults. they can give you valuable skills sure I. mean if someone could teach you survival. techniques how to survive the if you're. really worried about the apocalypse you. need to learn how to survive the. apocalypse sure so you know they do it. for Good Intentions yeah and some of it. pays off a little bit well the do you.

remember the one in Los Angeles that had. Billboards up and with a very specific. date oh what was the date I don't. remember but I remember there was this. thae restaurant I used to go to on. ventur this great thae spot and right. above it was this [ __ ] billboard that. was it was giving you a very specific. date like repent the end is here and. let's it's going to be this time I'm. like is this is like the the most. brilliant album release like that you.

know what I'm saying like some rock band. has figured out a way to like make. something go viral before the internet I. guess the internet was around then it. was um not that long ago I want to say. like maybe eight years ago 10 years ago. was it wow that's pretty recent here it. is 2011 Judgment Day May 21st 2011 cry. Mighty unto God Monday through Friday. live open Forum on familyradio.com and. what happened on May that was only 13.

years ago Jamie what happened on May. 11th nothing [ __ ]. zero these people were out of their mind. like y 2K was a little like that too. well also December 21st 2012 that was. the end of the mine calendar oh right my. bump my license play used to be December. uh 2012 DEC 12 whatever it was but that. was the end of the Long Count of the. mine calendar and all the cou thought. that was the end of the world so we we. actually did an end of the world show in. in Los Angeles with uh my friends from.

honey honey band my friend Suzanne uh. Joey Diaz Doug Stan hope it was wild and. what did you do nothing happened nobody. died we had a good time we had a good. time in the world keeps going but there. there's um you know it's just a long. calendar it's a very bizarre ancient. calendar that they don't really fully. understand so to say that was the end of. the world seems a little silly well you. know when um they give these dates like. when my grandfather gave the date of. 1977 they can also say anytime it.

doesn't happen that the calendars are. wrong ah how convenient do they have a. good calendar can I see that calendar. well you know but the point is like oh. well you know with the sh Bethlehem and. all this like maybe that was redated. because Herod didn't want us to know. like when the Jesus was really born. because he was killing all the babies. and he didn't really know the date of. Jesus's birth that's why he was killing. you know all the young boys as opposed. to just that one and etc etc so back to. the lady who was around with Eve who was. that lady I assume you're talking about.

Lilith but that's not in the tradition. that I read so but Lilith was supposedly. I didn't even know Lilith existed until. like two years ago I think oh wow I was. like what has that changed your life in. some way who the [ __ ] lith yes has. okay it was an eye opener I questioned. everything after that okay um the what. is the Lilith story exactly so again I. was not raised on the Lilith story at. all um. I don't know Jamie do you know the. little story so the little story I've. heard some but I feel like I'd misquote.

it so the little story they decided was. BS so they left it out of the big book. uhhuh she's been interpreted as. particular as Satan or oh Satan well. sure because course she's a lady she. made me do Terrible Things yeah well Eve. did that too the original Hebrew word. from which the name Lilith is taken is. in the Biblical Hebrew the book of. Isaiah though Lilith herself is not. mentioned in any biblical text in late. Antiquity and how do you say that word. Mandan how do you say that word do you.

know. Mandan Mandan and Jewish sources from. 500 AD onward Lilith appears in his. hisor hisas hisus incantations. incorporating a short Mythic story in. various Concepts and localities that. give partial descriptions of her she's. mentioned in the Babylonian talmud uh n. Shabbat Bava B and the conflict of Adam. and Eve with Satan as Adam's first wife.

and in the Zohar Leviticus 19a as a hot. fiery female who first cohabitated with. man wow many Rabbi authorities including. boy there's another word. myON myones and menem Mary reject the. existence of Lilith interesting so. Lilith is controversial very. controversial like all hot. ladies.

exactly but the fact that she was the. first yeah I mean again that's not the. tradition that um most Christians are. taught I mean it's considered part of. the Apocrypha so I mean I don't have any. idea what the truth is but she has been. vilified even more than Eve although if. you think about Eve is pretty vilified. too I mean she caused the downfall of. human reason why we're all here that's. right yeah it's uh I mean what the. what's the root of that story that's the. real question like what was that what. was the original thing that they were.

trying to. convey I will not original human take a. stab on that yeah it's but at least. Christianity has like an origin. story you know an origin story for. everything for the the the the universe. for people and when you didn't have. science and you didn't have any. understanding of cosmology you you need. something we need something. it's thousands of years just staring up. the Stars anybody know what the [ __ ]. going on up there I.

know yeah there's a Thor he lives up. there and then there's Zeus he's running. [ __ ] yeah yeah well looking at the stars. of Storytelling too M yeah in the. beginning there was the word well I. think that's one of the things that's. really screwed up human beings and uh I. don't think in any small way is light. pollution I think uh our inability to. see that we are are in this Celestial. Majestic Cosmos this thing it's not just.

black with a few Bright Lights the whole. thing is lit up and it's the most. magnificent thing you could ever see but. we sacrifice it almost for everyone that. lives in cities if you if you live in. cities you don't go anywhere and see it. you sacrifice a. humbling spiritual experience of just. staring at the star. and I think it's I think it's uh.

spiritual poisoning it's like U just. like if you have vitamin deficiencies I. think you have a spiritual deficiency. just a natural Universal spiritual. deficiency from not seeing the Stars I. think it puts our puts our our place in. the universe in perspective like nothing. else can because it's there it's real. it's not a concept it's not something. that you have to use a microscope or a. telescope to see it's right in front of. you and it's absolutely spectacular on a.

clear night in the mountains where. there's no light pollution and you see. the stars you're just. like wow is that a there every night did. you used to go to Joshua Tree when you. lived around La no I didn't oh so Joshua. tree is still so magical for that reason. because there's no lights I've heard. I've heard it's incredible out there. yeah it's not too far where from where I. am and and when I feel that I need to. commune with something greater than. myself you just go there and you just. lay down and look at those Stars light.

pollution is spiritual poisoning agreed. it really is and it's it's a big factor. I think in how lost we are and. how we're not like consistently humbled. every night yeah by the Majesty of the. Stars if we were consistently humbled. every night I think we'd be generally be. like you could tone people down a little. bit there is something um really healing. about about looking at the stars and. there's also the ability to literally. not be lost if you know how to read the. Stars right so that is something I was.

trained by my uncle who was you know. somewhat of an astronomer but to look at. the stars and to always know where you. are and if you know how to read the. Stars you can never be lost so you could. like navigate with the Stars like if. you're in a boat could you do it I I. don't know if I could do it very well. from a boat um but I could do it by. because I know how to put like a stick. in the ground and to see the difference. in the way that the Sun goes so that you. can see where you are because you got to. know where the North Star is obviously. but then you also have to know what time. of year it is to some degree so if.

you're lost for or you think you're lost. for a matter of months or years you. would need to have some sort of idea. where you are um and if you're in the. desert it's hard to tell Seasons but if. I was on land I could do it yeah so. you'd have to like add up the days well. you don't even have to add up the days. you just have to know what season you're. in and you can tell that by the the um. angle of the sun right but if you get. lost well sure although you don't get. lost for years you might just never you. guys were getting prepared to be lost. for years yeah yeah my mom used to have. this phrase I think she made it up but.

survive fear survive with faith and so. she taught everyone that those five. letters stand for what you should do. first you know so the first thing what. do you think the first thing you should. do if you're lost or you think you're. lost get to a high space to look. around well the first thing you should. do is shelter because first thing the. first thing you should do is shelter if. you don't have shelter you're going to. lose your body heat depends on where you. are of course but if you're anywhere. that gets cold and sometimes you don't. know what's going to get cold desert. doesn't seem like it gets cold have you. been in a desert night yeah they get. cold it's very freezing so shelter's the.

first thing and then fire because the. warmth is really important right so um. survive fears so it's shelter and then. fire and then the thing is signaling so. if you want to be found you put up a. signal if you don't want to be found you. need to know what creates a signal for. people who are looking so um for example. like if you are in the desert you try to. find dark rocks to put SOS but if you. don't want to be found you try to never. put a contrast so you try not to have. anything that would contrast with the. color of the land from a plane that a. plane would see as contrast Jesus so.

there's a lot of fun stuff like that so. they were preparing you from hide for. hiding and for surviving yeah and who. are you going to be hiding from well um. so after the second coming when. everybody goes up to heaven who's good. all that's left is the demons in the. world and there's a thousand years of. Terror that will rain upon the Earth. till the blood Rises to the H's. bridles wow and you guys were preparing. for this when you were little kids. yeah.

demons yeah so but if you're a good. person you're going to heaven so you. don't have to [ __ ] with these un yeah so. that You' probably heard some of those. stories right that there's whole books. on these like Left Behind series yes so. like who gets left behind but some. didn't they do a bunch of movies I think. so Kurt Cameron did it maybe I heard. they're. amazing okay I don't know so I can't. speak to that but uh yes there's a lot. of that because it's part of a lot of. traditions and um the idea though is. that some people are left behind in. order to try to win the last people like.

all the evil people sort of like Noah's. Ark right like Noah's left and he gets. on this Ark and like it's his job to I. mean why didn't God just take Noah to. heaven right but like he gets this boat. and he has his family and all the. animals and he gets to like stare clear. from the flood or you have Sodom and. Gomorrah you have lot the only good. person left and he wants to like help. the people in the town or Jonah and N. Nineveh where he's like told to go tell. the people they're bad and then like you. know God Saves the people anyway so. there's a lot of stories of God changing. his mind and yes I know a lot of Bible. stories yeah there's definitely a lot of.

stories of God changing his mind yeah so. if you leave some people behind who know. how to lead the army of God you can then. pratie and bring people into true Faith. or righteousness it's also kind of a. like I don't know a way to keep people a. little bit isolated if you're trying to. teach them to do something that other. people don't know how to do and I was. very ashamed of knowing like that kind. of thing so it's the kind of thing I. talk about in for is like I spent a lot. of time really feeling like uh I. couldn't acclimate to the regular world.

like later because I you know it's like. if you're always looking at I'm sure. Navy Seals feel this way but you know. like you're always waiting for disaster. right yeah and you're always thinking. preemptively like what can I do to avert. This Disaster how did you get that out. of your head that's still in my head Joe. for real yeah really yeah so right now. you're preparing for the end of the. world well you know I walk in your lair. and I'm like okay there's all dudes here. where's the exits like no but I mean to.

some degree I mean I'm not actively. preparing but I feel like I um yeah I. mean it makes it really hard to trust. people when you've been trained that the. people that you think you can trust are. going to betray you right right yeah. really hard to get that out of your. head I had a friend who was a Mormon and. when they left uh she was like in her. 40s and she said she became really. susceptible to any kind of like. spiritual people spiritual ity like con. people she just had this trusting nature.

from being like a strict Mormon her. whole life and then all of a sudden Cut. Loose yeah and didn't you know didn't. know to distrust people absolutely it. wasn't programmed in because if you're. only around people who are homogeneous. and that like you're taught I was that. like everybody in your group is. trustworthy you don't see the signs you. don't know I mean you don't know the red. flags as people would say she also said. like she she found herself to be sucess. to people telling her things like she. just had like this automatic inclination.

to not question and believe things that. came from being strict strict religion. right why did she leave in her 40s I. don't know oh that's a tough time to. leave yeah yeah I don't know what the. story behind it was exactly yeah never. got into it well that's the thing about. cults is it does make it really. difficult to survive on the outside and. I certainly know a lot of people have. taken their lives after being. excommunicated from the fields and I had. I had a dear friend the first person who.

ever told me that used that word that is. a cult um and I had been out for years. and I didn't I mean it's not like I. never heard the word but I didn't apply. it to the way we were raised and he had. written you know newspaper articles he's. Professor Etc and um he took his life. because it was really really really hard. to live on the outside yeah and there's. been many others who have done that as. well and there's also people who are. ashamed once they reintegrate into. society they were part of that they got. duped into this nonsense and and so you. hide it most people it's like it's not.

like you're telling people and they're. laughing at you you're not telling. anyone because you're scared they're. going to laugh at you or judge you and. so you spend your life in shame hiding. uh this truth that honestly doesn't make. you a bad person at all and probably. many people would understand but you. don't talk about it I didn't talk about. it forever not just that but everybody's. susceptible to it whether you believe it. or not especially if you were a child. everybody's susceptible this ridicul. idea people have that oh I would have. known better like I don't think you. would I really don't I think you would.

now but you're you now you're you're 35. year old you you're not you're not that. you that was 5 years old and if that had. been consistently perpetuated onto you. you wouldn't know right so there's a. story we were raised with which is a. really common biblical story of Abraham. and Isaac and Abraham is told to kill. his son his only son and he's told to. like take him up on an altar and. Slaughter him and the way that you would. Slaughter an animal and Abraham like. makes Isaac do this hike up to this. mountain where he's going to kill him.

and he God has told him he must do this. and so he like ties his own son on this. Altar and brings up the knife to kill. him and like very dramatically you know. at least the story you know comes and as. he's plunging down the knife an angel. comes and grabs his wrist and stops and. God said I just wanted to make sure. you'd really do it yeah and this is the. story I was raised on and both my. parents and my grandfather were very big. on like you will kill your child if God. ask you to that's what you supposed to. do and I said this in the book and my. brother who you know we we really. haven't talked about these or we have.

now but at the time we hadn't really. talked about this this is like all of a. year ago and he said when he read it he. thought no it's not that our parents. would have sacrificed us they did. sacrifice us because they believed that. somebody else would take care of us and. they we were raised very you know I. don't know if Community is exactly the. truth because it was there wasn't. necessarily anyone who was checking but. there was random people who a lot of in. my case lot of men who just raised us. because our parents had more important. things that God told them to do and so.

there's a lot of ways to sacrifice kids. there's a lot of ways to think that you. know God is talking to you. yeah yeah you could apply that to other. aspects of culture absolutely um it is. uh it is there like groups of people. that get together that have survived. Cults that have uh an ability to like. help each other through this. so apparently there are and I didn't. know about this until the last year. there's a whole huge group of people who.

have come out of like htic Jews Like. Orthodox CTIC Jews but there's also um. Steve Hassen he's he's a doctor who um. spoke on Megan Kelly when I was on that. show too and um he has something called. The Bite method which is just basically. says that there's like these really four. major ways of control that Cults do they. control your behavior your information. your thoughts and your emotions and so. he has these deprogramming um systems. and counselors and people who can help. you if you've been in that kind of high.

control group even if it wasn't. religious in nature yeah I've talked to. that dude before have you talked to him. yeah yeah um it's um I think he was a. Mooney right so mhm yeah his the whole. thing of like his excommunication and. how he got free of it when you were. breaking free what age were you 17. you're 177 and what was it like like. trying to integrate with regular people. out there in the world when you were 17.

I don't think I did that very. effectively at all so how could you have. yeah I just couldn't so I got married. what was the experience like of like all. of the sudden you go from being this. incredibly controlling religious cult. that thinks the end of the world is. coming to regular world so it wasn't. entirely all of a sudden I had a. childhood illness um an autoimmune. disease which was probably I mean. there's no genetic nature to these. diseases but where your body attacks. itself so it's quite probable that my. body was just like I can't take this.

anymore because I mean stress yes and. also there's a lot of deprivation sleep. deprivation food you know when you're in. survival training a lot of extreme. deprivation so how long is survival. training go for well because I was born. there and it also because I was sick and. because of other things like I was. trained for a very long time like pretty. much we moved up there fulltime up to. the mountain which I talk about in the. book forger we moved up there um when I. was almost eight and so I was up there. until I left and you were foraging yeah.

yeah I mean there was other things going. on too but so I got sick and then I was. hungry and there was a lot of other. things happening and so I found a way to. start house cleaning for people and. that's how I got an application to. college and stuff like that but I was a. house cleaner and um so that was kind of. a fourway a foray into learning about. how other people lived even though like. it wasn't like I was invited into their. family I was invited into their things. but you can learn a lot like when you. see a refrigerator that has food in it. what was it like like just cleaning. people's houses just seeing how these.

weird people lived in the outside world. did you ever see the unbreakable Kimmy. Schmidt I did yeah hilarious so many. people were like they made a show about. you it's kind of you it is and you know. what that is very much the way that. she's just like confused by the smallest. things I mean it's it's funny the way. that they depict it but it's also kind. of dark I mean I actually liked the dark. humor in that it's very. and handmaid tale too I got a lot of. calls about that one they like they made. another show about you uh but I think.

that there's there's real truth to these. the things that confuse you and I didn't. have any friends I went to college I. didn't have I didn't know how to have. relationships there's a lot of rules. apparently unspoken rules about you know. the dance of friendship and I hadn't. never made a friend because I was born. with the people I was born with and I. didn't know how to do that wow I didn't. know how to date I didn't know how to. like be I didn't I didn't know any of. the rules and took me a very long time. to learn them what a crazy crash course. were you were you open about your past.

to these people no no absolutely not I. was open they just thought you were. weird yeah one dude called me an ice. queen oh boy because I was just really. separate you know I didn't know how to. and I I didn't drink or smoke or do any. of those things because I was so afraid. of losing control I was so afraid that. if I I also felt like I was in a huge. hole that I had to dig my way out of in. order to find a way to live in the. outside world and so I couldn't afford. to like I didn't know who to trust and. who not to trust and I mean some of my. friends now even and and my friends have.

become my family and my brother's like. that too he has just the most amazing. friends who are his family and uh they. will still call me Ferell they're like. you don't you still don't know how to I. mean like I still don't understand the. point of utensils I mean like I can I. can do it and I know which Fork to eat. from but like I don't want to you know. you want to eat with your fingers yeah. yeah I mean you know I can eat with. utensils but it's not if if I'm not not. in polite company I'm eating with my. hands yeah isn't it interesting that. like eating with your hands is thought. to be gross but some have to eat with.

your hands like if you're eating ribs. how you going to eat ribs if you eat. ribs with a fork and knife you're a. [ __ ]. [ __ ] you know if you got a big old. Texas beef rib you have to eat that. thing with your face you have to get in. there yeah so you have to use your hands. is it weird yeah it's it's interesting. and it's just cultural right yeah but. there's something we do Western culture. cuz we're so in our minds instead of our. bodies we're always separating ourselves. so we need this like piece of metal that. keeps us like from the reality that.

we're like [ __ ] eating an animal or. you know whatever it is we're devouring. and somehow it's more polite if you have. this piece of metal between you and it. bizarre it is and definitely keeps your. hands cleaner you know and it's easier. to pick the food. up and you feel like you know look at me. I'm at a restaurant I got a napkin. tucked in here yeah a lot of rules you. have to have that on your lap and you. know right and which side is the salad. fork which side's which one's the. regular Fork start on the outside in. yeah yeah bizarre yeah so when you are.

learning these things you have to like. actually memorize them you know like. when you don't come from it CU you're. like there's a lot of rules and all of. them have systems right so I'm very. actually fascinated by microcosms you. know like the microcosm cultures of like. any sort of culture has a lot of rules. attached to it and um you have to well. you must be hyper aware of that I feel. like I am yeah yeah you have to be just. yeah patterns that people just take for. granted you're like oh interesting yeah. I'm always watching the the the thing.

about like not knowing where the forks. and knives go to me is one of the. dumbest ones of all time cuz it's like a. sign that you're a cultured person if. you know where the for it has to be. proper like like what are we doing what. do you want to have a boring ass. conversation with a bunch of people or. do you want to sit down and have a meal. and talk like that's the fun kind of. like what the [ __ ] are we doing like. what who's prop who are we impressing. is the queen coming by like what is this. this is why would you want this well. haven't you experienced though that.

sometimes when you get rid of all that. you just have a much more intimate. conversation I like to eat on the floor. I like to sit on the floor and I have. this beautiful rug in my house and I'm. like if people will do it I invite them. to sit on the floor because it just. feels more organic to me and it just it. feels earthier and it feels just like I. don't know it just removes all the. hierarchies and I don't know have you. ever seen those um uh Middle Eastern. guys all sitting around an enormous. plate of food and they're all just. sitting cross-legged just digging in. with their hands and eating with their. hands yeah yeah well if your hands are.

clean yeah well the whole idea is you. never Shake someone's hand with your. left hand right CU that's the hand you. used to wipe your ass right so they. think we're gross cuz we use paper we. just smudge it all over the place well. and they got a point they they got a. really good point like it is one of the. grossest things if you get one of those. bedet toilets you will never go back. you'll never go back like how gross is. it to just smear it all over the place. so they have you're allowed to eat with. your hands you're supposed to eat with. your hands it's just a normal thing like. most of the time it's normal how do you.

eat popcorn do you use I feel so. validated right now yeah how do you eat. popcorn do you eat popcorn okay well. then you eat with your [ __ ] hands. yeah yeah bread exactly exactly bread. who's cutting bread with a fork and. knife that's ridiculous with your hands. yeah I guess it's just the messiness of. it but I think if you can get people to. act proper like the conversation to like. stay within the lines yeah you know. maybe that's it maybe you know if you go. to an inn and everybody's eating chicken.

legs and drinking beer like they're. going to have crazy stories it's going. to get uncomfortable just keep people. make them where they're nice as close so. they don't want to get messy and give. them a fork and a knife and keep. everybody proper and everyone's trying. to impress everybody else with how. proper they are and how much they know. about fine dining may I see this some o. y to make a wine selection you know all. of it it's like I remember the first. time you know someone came to pour this. glass of wine or whatever and then the. the the guy is supposed to like take a. sip of it to tell the guy if it's okay.

and I'm like what kind of culture is. this like I mean also and what are you. going to say if it's not like what kind. of by the way that is the the the most. bullshitty bullshitty moment you ever. have in a restaurant when you swirl that. thing around take a Sniff and say unless. you really know what you're doing 99.9%. of the people doing that have no [ __ ]. idea what they're doing absolutely and I. don't know I don't know if this is a. fact but I have never had anyone offer. it to me they always offer it to the man. and the man decides whether or not it's. a wine good enough for the lady oh.

that's interesting no I've definitely. seen women get it really yeah if a woman. orders a bottle of wine it it's. generally like whoever orders it h I've. have seen that okay I'm going to watch. yeah but I think maybe that's just. modern today maybe that's like a new. thing you know with women's Liberation. and stuff like people don't want to be. presumptuous so they'll offer the woman. taste no one has ever offered me a taste. interesting even if you've ordered the. bottle maybe I've never ordered a bottle. maybe that's what it is I think it's. generally the person who orders it that. may be yeah but I also wouldn't have any.

idea if that was cuz if I'm around a. group of my friends and we order a. bottle of wine if I ask they always. bring it to me but if one of my friends. ask they always bring it to them yeah. it's I think it's generally the person. who orders it I think but I don't know I. think it's probably just rules but I. would. imagine that like women get offered less. I would I would imagine if I was like an. old school somal I would assume the lady. would not be making the choice do you. know anything about seeks seeks the. religion uhhuh not too much which is.

really more culture than a religion but. this is about wine I didn't chase change. the subject so they have this they do. not drink unless the person they are. with is drinking and they don't want to. be rude or whatever so they're not. allowed to order wine but if you order. wine and you pour it for them they can. drink and that's the same thing about. smoking they also never cut their hair. there's a lot of things but I have um a. seek friend and he taught me I couldn't. figured out at the beginning because. I'll be like why does he keep asking me. to order like he'd be like you order I. like no no you order I don't I don't. know what I want you know like whatever. and he'd be like no no you need to order.

the bottle of wine and um he if I. ordered it even though he told me to. order it and he was paying for it then. he could drink it and if a goofy rule. know work around that's the thing I mean. there's just all these cultures have. different traditions and yeah yeah do. you know what siks do have they have uh. this crazy yogurt cannabis mixture I not. that's supposed to be Bomb Diggity what. is that stuff called Jamie never heard. yeah uh Duncan taught me about it like.

they they have some you it no they have. some like edible THC yogurt thing that's. supposed to be insane he's giving it to. you okay uh many different ways of. making bong lassi the traditional method. is to Bren blend fresh cannabis leaves. plain yogurt a pinch of sugar and nuts. like almonds and pistachios along with. spices and Ginger powder fennel seeds. cardamon and pepper corn and water wow.

that's a concoction click on that what. does it say at the top oh wait why the. world's oldest cannabis. treat yeah I probably should try it I. think you should yeah but I but I guess. these guys take that stuff and get. blasted yeah it's a really old and Rich. tradition and they are very humble and. kind people the culture U very pacifist. and etc etc but probably that's that's. what they've been doing for yeah they're. chilling yeah they're in a good head. space yeah yeah it's it it like so.

that's a an example of a group of humans. following a pattern that seems to be. beneficial like if seems to like they. got a harmonious relationship with each. other they do but their workaround you. know we can joke about the workaround. but the thing their workaround does. means that when they associate with. Outsiders they don't stick to their own. custom they accept the customs of the. outsider right and so and they work. around it by the other person having the. participate in it and because they. participate it they don't keep. themselves as narrow-minded I mean cult. people're definitely no matter who pours.

you that glass of wine you're not. allowed to drink it my dad was in the. military and he was just like I mean he. was drafted but he was like you're not. no one could get me to drink a sip. alcohol etc etc like there he was very. proud of his ability to be separate and. so it's really difficult to have. friendships in a cult by the way you. think that it's so great because you're. all in unison but one of the things that. um people who have gotten out maybe they. still have family members there is that. the people who are left there they don't. have any real friends because anybody. would report on anybody there's no. loyalty you can't you can't tell a joke. you can't laugh at a joke you can't like.

there's really a lot of things that are. forbidden that are I think required for. friendship and so I had to learn that. when I got on the outside and I look. back and I think I was really. impoverished by knowing people and and. moving in unison and having Comfort but. not really having the experience of. trust and so how did you how long did it. take and how what steps did you go about. to sort of. like create your own. version of the world I feel like there's.

really good ways to do this and I did. not do any of. them I I mean I was in college so I you. know whatever I I learned things. academically but what I didn't learn is. like in my body I feel like it I had. four children really quickly um really. young and then I think I raised myself. with them you know I used to do this. thing when my babies were little where I. I was reading about other cultures cuz I. didn't know I didn't even know like what. an American culture really was and so I.

like read about Japan for example which. at the time they were saying basically. you don't say no to a child till they're. five because you want to give them a. sense of autonomy and then you start. putting the structure there so anyway I. had these index cards and I put them all. over my house and they said that they. had the values that I wanted from my. kids like resiliency humor um. agency uh whatever and so and then on. the back I would put the techniques so. for example I didn't put restraints like. I didn't use um play pin or whatever I. just tried to create a safe environment. and then I did these things like they.

should be able to find me but I. shouldn't always be present so I would. say hi I'm going to be working right. here in this room like to a one-year-old. right and they like anytime you want me. I'm right here but then like remov. myself from sight so they felt that they. were in control of the relationship and. just all this stuff but I did it so. cerebrally you know and so I think by. raising them I raised myself. wow but it did take me a long time to. have friends though I don't think I had. friends till my 30s because like any. genuine friends because I didn't know. how to be vulnerable and I didn't trust.

anyone like I would be friends with. somebody for like six seven years before. I'd mentioned anything about where I. came from so how did. you figure out how to open up I'm still. working on it still working on it you I. think you're doing great I'm trying it. with you Joe well just the fact that you. could the way you communicate about it. you're so open about it and I I mean I. can't imagine what that's like I can't. imagine what that life is like what your. childhood was like with being 17 and. just being out in the world on your own.

trying to decipher what the [ __ ] the. outside world does yeah and I didn't. understand parents either like people's. relationships with their parents like I. didn't ever have like my dad never. bought me a meal in my life like he. never even later in life when I. reconnected or whatever it's like I. would always have to pay there was never. this sense that my parents were giving. us you know like it was always us giving. to them and um I felt like I didn't. understand I feel like I still have a. little struggle with like like why are.

they taking such good care of you you. know it's like this I don't know it. disconnect as far as what it looks like. to be a family and my definition of. family is wider than biology of course. right because like your grandfather. wasn't really your grandfather right he. was he was your grandfather he actually. was my biological grandfather but the. other kids that we were raised with all. called him Grandpa right and so I didn't. know the difference but he was my so. there was a lot of people that were. family but they weren't related right. yeah and then of course once I left I.

had to make new family as well and and. my friendships for my family what makes. sense that it would take you into your. 30s because it's like you have to. relearn life so you're like going. through 1 through 17 again yeah yeah it. takes you that many that much more time. did you see the movie poor things no. okay well just this idea that if you put. like a a child's brain in a adult body. that like that's what that story is. about it's kind of like a Frankenstein. sort of thing who's in that movie um. Emma Stone Emma Stone is is that a.

recent movie She for there's a bunch of. those like she did like I pay attention. but it's not about religion well she. does call she calls the guy God who. created her um because his last name is. Godwin I think it's Godwin right Jamie. but it's she calls him God so there's. like a religious Parable but it's not. specifically about religion but I think. that's what I was like I was like a. which I feel like I'm still recovering. from but what year is this supposed to. be taking place in it's surrealistic so. it's kind of Victorian but it's um.

sensationalized it's almost like uh. Diego Rivera crossed with h like oh yeah. can see it part of it's in black and. white and then she starts seeing in. color how do I not know about this yeah. I don't know how you don't know about. I'm so out of the loop there's just too. many things to just taught you something. you definitely did but there's just too. many things to pay attention to today. yeah there are there too many but in any. caseo many it's a adult brain put in I. mean sorry a child's brain it's actually.

her unborn fetus that gets put into this. body she she dies and so the the baby. dies and then or the baby doesn't quite. die so that that brain gets put into. this adult woman but any case that's. what I felt like wow I felt like I was. this adult body who just had an infant. brain and I and there was just and I. think it just took me so long so I don't. come from I feel like I don't come from. an era too like kind of like the that. that the movie is depicted it felt like. like there was no music of I don't. relate to the music of my generation. because I never heard it and so people.

you know like people our AG just sort of. like everyone should sort of like the. same kind of thing and I don't have it. never I didn't go to concerts when I was. a teenager ever I never so I didn't have. any idea what that felt like and so I. don't associate with that with youth for. example did you guys listen to any music. I sang a lot of hymns hymns a lot of. hymns mostly just Christian hymns right. all Christian hymns but John Wesley. there's a lot of I don't know if you. know who John Wesley is but he wrote a. lot of hymns um and you know like in the. I think 1600s could you fact check that.

Jamie but it was uh he wrote so many. songs and I knew all the lyrics to those. I knew how to sing in harmony and um so. when you were kids like you guys would. rock out you just rock out and sing. hymns well yeah pretty much was really. rocking out when was the first time you. heard another. song you know um the thing that I got. ultimately kicked out for was going to a. a movie with a a boy who was raised with. me he was a young man he he had left and. he was a college kid and I was 17 and I.

I went to the color purple and there was. music in that and um I were we allowed. to see movies no had you seen one before. uh no color purple was the first movie. you ever saw to my knowledge yes wow so. that really changed my life and then I. started watching movies when I got to. college what was it like going to a. movie at 17 for the first time magic. like a like a like the most beautiful. church it was so.

beautiful it was like it was I mean just. the darkness and then the way that the. screen lit up and I just it was so. beautiful I just I think we take it for. granted right yeah it just made me. cry e. wild but and that was the first time you. heard other music too yeah and so I. didn't start listening to their music. though it took me a while to like. acclimate even once I got out like I. knew that other people were doing it but. the first time like I maybe bought a CD.

for example I think I was 30 wow like I. just didn't because I had babies young I. just didn't I did all that in my early. 20s I had all these little kids and I. was doing you know the mom thing and and. trying to get myself educated so I could. you know make good money and take care. of everybody and it just felt like there. wasn't time for that so I didn't have a. youth and so I I met a music critic when. I was in my 30s I'm actually putting. this in my next book which is actually. called prodical daughter and he.

introduced me to the songs of it was in. the early 2000s and he introduced me to. the songs of the 90s and taught me like. you know the derivations of you know. these the the beats and the lyrics and. he had come from a pastor father so he. understood you know religion in relation. to music and it was just this wonderful. music education so I did all that I mean. I really think I came into understanding. music in my 30s you're like almost like. an alien yes very. much like an alien version of a human. being that they dropped off at 17 years.

old like what what am I doing here it. just it's shocking to me how long it. takes to figure it out even when you. think like you can learn to you know. what it is I could learn to code switch. and I could learn to uh be presentable. on the out side like I could learn which. Fork to use like really quickly that you. can learn but you can't learn to feel. the other things that other people feel. and so you're always just a little bit. disconnected as like being kind of in a. bell jar or something like there's. always a distance between or there was. for just a long time between me and. someone else and so for example my.

brother who loves you as I told you he. um I went to his birthday party recently. and they're like you have a sister like. he never even talked about his family. they didn't even know and he's like yeah. she just wrote a book you should like. read it so you could figure out who. where I come from you know because he. never told his very best friends who he. had been like friends with for over 20. years like he never told them and I. think that you know and he he looks. really normal you know like he has. but he didn't have the ability I think. to really to really maybe gauge the way. that it affected.

him yeah and we as a family you know the. siblings all kind of went different. directions because like it's painful to. go back and relive it and you don't it. just feels like you're always going. backwards if you try to be around where. you come from and you just want to you. just want to like live in the world and. you know find find a new identity wow so. there's long-term consequences work. coming out of something like this oh for. sure how could there not be yeah I mean. just there's so many things that can.

happen to a child when they're young. that will screw them up forever but the. fact that you had no understanding of. the outside world and you fully believed. all this stuff that you were being told. you learn how to forage and survive in. the woods and then you get released and. then you're out in the world cuz you. want to see the color purple it's pretty. crazy it's such a crazy. story but the outside world is really.

complicated because there's so many. different belief systems out here yeah. yeah did you um were you had a rush to. try to find a new one I was in a rush. for everything because I didn't think I. was going to live very long because. there was still inside my head that I. was a breaking I mean even now like to. be honest writing about this this is. what the former field people have say to. me all the time it's like nobody's ever. talked about this publicly we were we're. trained you know like once you're in the. field you're always in the field like. it's like being a marine or something.

like these are our brothers and sisters. in arms and you never allowed to talk. about this so to come out with the book. it was the first time that anyone has. spoken publicly about this particular. cult um and I was raised of course to. believe I'd be struck dead by lightning. if I ever talked about it and so there. were so many years that I think it was. just so painful to even think about wow. I think you know where I come from so I. mean I'm kind of going around a circle. to answer this question but it felt like.

um it's been very recent that I can own. that as being an essential part of my. identity. wow how did. you do do you attribute to any specific. like is it meditation is it yoga like. what is it that sort of has allowed you. to kind of regain your life. have you heard the expression or that. the word biophilia no so biophilia is. the love of living things and it's not.

um specifically environmental it was. coined in 1973 I think by Eric FR and it. is uh the love of living things so it's. not just humans but it's animals plants. whatever and so I think that because I. was raised understanding the natural. environment I really feel like when I've. been lost in the worlds you know and or. you think you're lost I don't know if we. can ever truly be lost I think that. we're just learning what's around us. that isn't working like that's always. information that can if if you know what. to look for there's always information.

that can get you where you want to go. you just need to know where you want to. go right so I feel like putting my feet. in the dirt so you kind of like any but. like being in my body and being on the. earth and I think yoga helps with that. even if you're not doing it on the grass. although I do teach outside sometimes. but like if you can find yourself like. what you're connected to that feels. solid that feels like something you can. believe in right because it's not about. an idea it's like I am held by gravity. right now like this gravity is holding. me into the Earth and this earth like it.

is capable of nurturing seeds like. things grow out of this earth like we. forget that I think sometimes in our. contemporary culture that everything. comes out of the earth MH and so I think. that one of the practices I do meditate. but uh I meditated before I got came. here today but I think that like if I. can be under a tree you know and like on. the earth in some way then I feel like. that I guess it's that neurop plasticity. thing like I can always grow like. there's that there's no point at which. um I'm separate and I think there's that.

part of practice of being like no I'm. truly connected and all the things they. taught me was a way of keeping me. separate but I can always go back to the. source itself yeah I think when we were. talking about the sky and the light. pollution being a spiritual deficiency I. think we have that also from the forests. I think there's something that connects. us when we're in in the wilderness. there's a feeling that you get when. there's a there's a humbleness that. comes about you a humility that you have.

to accept that the the the Wilderness is. so vast and powerful and and amazing. that it puts you in check it gives you. like this feeling of connectedness to. everything we think when we're living in. cities and we're getting Ubers and we're. going to restaurants we think we're. disconnected from nature because we've. kind of set it up that way we set our. own little hamster wheel up over nature. but we're missing something by doing. that we're missing something we are. nature are we really are like we are. nature we've just create our Forks right.

let's go back to that metaphor and that. literal thing but we separate ourselves. from the reality that we eat straight. from the earth and you know most people. they eat animals that like are alive on. the earth and that thing was a living. creature and you were devouring it and. that is so Primal yeah life eats life. yeah and we all come from the Wilderness. we really do like for like hundreds of. thousands of years we way way I mean. just it's. astronomically like longer that we spent. foraging than we did the civilization.

yeah within agriculture I mean. agriculture is relatively new yep and so. we all come from that so when we get. there I think it is something that is. inside of us and I think we would all. benefit at least I benefit I shouldn't. preach this to anyone else but I think. we benefit when we connect to it I think. all human beings share that the only. people that you have to be like really. really neurotic and like a crazy City. dweller like get me out of the woods I. hate it out here it's so quiet there are. a lot of people who are like that out. there smoking cigarettes Bobby when we.

[ __ ] go home this is terrible there's. got to be people like that people that. are just like about these people that. get acclimated to those particular. cultures too right there's people that. maybe there's a thing that they do in. their city that they can't be without. and they they need they need that thing. they think they need it yeah oh yeah for. sure but they like gambling addicts I. have a friend who's a gambling addict. lives in Vegas I'm leave in Vegas cuz he. wants to gamble all the. time so it's if that's the place you. know that's the place for you you can't.

get that guy to live in the woods you. know there's no card games out there no. but there's a lot of adrenaline if. you're looking for it oh yeah it's a. different kind of adrenaline but it's. also there's a lot like I said the. humility that the woods give you first. of all it's so hard to just get around. it's [ __ ] hard to get around where. there's no roads and [ __ ] and. everything's up and down yeah but you. actually can get GPS out there not. everywhere handheld not everywhere what. do you mean well I suppose if you have a. specific device but you're your phone is.

not going to work in plenty of places. and I wonder oh I know I know there's. places phones don't work but the new. phones do don't new phones uh use uh. actual global positioning satellite so. that it works even without a cell phone. signal I think iPhones do that and I. think Samsung phones do that too where. do they I think they do it's very. limited is it limited like you can send. one not like one but like if you're. stuck no no no no you misunderstand what. I'm saying no you you misunderstand what. I'm saying yeah there is satellite.

messaging but what I'm saying is GPS. coordinates that your Maps work I think. your Maps still work even if you don't. have cell phone signal you can't put in. I can tell you this if you're in a. forest it's not going to tell you which. way to go because it hasn't been mapped. in that way like it's not going to tell. you turn left in 50 yards right right. right yeah right you get GPS but you. don't get directions you get directions. you're going to have to trust something. else sir Siri tell me how to get home.

right right so you're going to have to. find some other ways to identify yeah. you'll have to actually look at the. terrain on your GPS unit and figure out. which way to go yes you can do that but. you can pick like a waypoint and it'll. actually steer you towards a waypoint if. you have like have your device on you. you're [ __ ] you're [ __ ] no no you. can actually you can actually oh no no. no I'm not I mean you're [ __ ] I'm I'm. [ __ ] you're not [ __ ] uh an iPhone's. GPS will work fine with without cell. phone coverage your phone will know.

where it is but you will not be able to. see your location displayed on Apple. maps without a data connection to. download the. map what does that mean that makes it a. little bit tough to get around so it. knows where you are the GPS will work. fine but so could you just download the. map of the entire country and leave it. on your phone so I know you can do that. with um certain apps like there's Onyx. uh Onyx hunt it's a map app application. for uh Wilderness hunters and you can.

use that and you download areas and you. you have them regardless of cell phone. service so you can tell where you're at. that may work but most people on this. planet have not done that so they would. [ __ ] yeah you're [ __ ] if you don't. know where the North Star is you don't. know how to figure out what north south. east and west yeah you're in trouble you. don't know where the sun rises and some. people don't even know no you're right. they don't they don't even know they. have no idea a lot of people live in the. city which way does the sun set North I. don't [ __ ] know they don't know. probably North and they just start going.

that they think they're going north and. they're going deeper into the woods and. you know another thing about like going. deeper in the woods like humans are. prone to Circular movement so if you. don't know that you will just keep. walking in circles and so you could see. the north you could keep walking like. kind of towards it but you're going to. Veer slightly and you're going to find. yourself right back where you came from. not good it's not good and you have to. figure out a strategy to keep yourself. from doing that because you will. naturally they've done all sorts of. studies on this and and humans walk in. circles why do they do that that's what. we do I don't know why do we do that.

it's something in our brain where we. don't really understand what it is to. walk in a straight line which you could. get real Like prodical Son about that. too I think but getting lost in the. woods has to be one of the most. terrifying experiences so you know what. you should do if you get lost in the. woods what the first thing you should do. is stop moving stop mov stay put yeah. stay put you really need to create a. shelter and come up with a plan you. really just walking around you're not. going to get out yeah people have died I. mean you probably heard this but like on. the Appalachian Trail and stuff they'll.

like go off the trail for like 10 ft or. something to pee but it's like in a bush. or whatever and then they lose track of. the where the trail is and they will die. 20 feet away from the trail because they. moved around and they exerted all their. energy and whatever if they had just. stayed put and waited for the sunrise. and did you know whatever um and then. they figured out a system like by. watching the sky or if they had your we. should all download all the maps make. sure we have GPS on our phones um but. you know people just I mean there's all. these stories my daughter was telling me.

that one of the nurses and she's so. capable she and her sister took her. daughter so it was like the two sisters. so the aunt and the mother and the daugh. teenage daughter and they were staying a. KOA like they were camping and they went. just on a little like a little hike out. you know right next to the campground. and her husband knew which Campground. she was at they died just 100 yards away. because they didn't have any idea how to. do basic survival wow actually the. teenager Liv because the mother and the. aunt gave her all their clothes and they. covered her and everything and she.

survived died yeah horrible stor oh my. God the things that people don't know. about the Wilderness so stay. put if you're not good at this yeah. there's a lot of tragic stories Jesus. it's. so it's so unforgiving out there yeah. and so many people have no idea how to. even Na and you can't most people are. out of shape you can't even walk up. hills there's that too but get stuck out. there you're [ __ ] but we survived as a. species out there so the thing is it's. it really is about knowledge and I mean.

living a city would be impossible for. prehistoric people too like just I mean. cars are so fast like how do we avoid so. Qui yeah they would definitely get. much if they had a car they would lock. it yeah they would never figure out how. to drive a car no one's going to teach. them oh yeah it would be so I mean you. imagine moving at those speeds but the. point is you can understand the. Wilderness but people don't and then in. a sense they're not humble enough right. they don't understand that there's. something terrifying um if if you don't. know what you're facing and it's.

interesting that the the disconnect from. nature that we get with cities enables. people to create. things where you don't need nature. anymore where you the supermarkets. trucks all those inventions everything's. coming out of cities and it's all. getting constructed built put together. by a group people living in cities and. it all comes from nature but nobody sees. that because it's so many so many steps. removed. right but it whatever it does it removes. you further and further from nature yeah. like all the things that we make remove. us further and further from nature.

Shield us from nature feel like a lot of. the high control group culty things is. as far removed from nature as possible. too I mean like my mom was really an. exception in this way my dad didn't. learn the survival stuff it was just my. mom but there's this idea I think that. if we could understand our true nature. we'd be a lot less susceptible to all. sorts of um control right because. because we would understand that we're. that we don't have control and that no. human you know who professes to have the. ultimate wisdom could possibly have it. because we would be so attached to I.

mean the cycles of nature like. everything is prey and predator and like. everything's part of a much larger. system and if you saw yourself as part. of that it would be really hard to fully. believe any one person could be the Son. of God um in today's age you know like. that they professed to be the prophet or. whatever you would have a lot more um. cynicism I think if you understood. nature yeah we're just removed from it. we're very removed from it and you know. that's also a problem of protecting your. kids right then your kids aren't going.

to meet a bunch of creepy people where. they could recognize creepy people in. the future you know I I met a lot of. [ __ ] psychos so like I know I see. them coming I know what you look I've. seen one of you before you're out of. your [ __ ] mind and if you don't know. that and you're a 17-year-old kid who. just gets released from a cult cuz you. went to color purple and then all a. sudden you're out in the world like. how'd you figure out who to trust oh it. took me a long time in fact I I've been. physically assaulted I was I mean I've.

been physically assaulted by people I. had no idea where dangerous like you. with some guy and you know he's like oh. I'm having this Backyard barbecue or. whatever and then there's nobody else. there and you don't know to leave you. know you're like in the backyard and he. grabs you what I mean my bones have been. broken I've had because I didn't. understand I mean I could fight back to. whatever degree but I also you can't. fight a get back about somebody who's. two or three times your size you know. the it's just really difficult but I. didn't know the people were dangerous. right people were dangerous in that way. right wow so it takes God what a wild.

experience that would make a hell of a. movie you know cuz like the unbreakable. Kimmy Schmidt is like really funny yeah. but like a real it's more fun when it's. funny yeah well she's hilarious that. show is hilarious it is I really love. the gay guy the roommate oh my God. what's his name again I don't remember. it's been a while since I saw it show is. excellent such a funny show well I did. so after forger came out I was. approached to do like creative shopping. agreement whatever so I did write a. screenplay a forger that is different.

than the book but it is about all of. this so we'll see what comes of it well. I hope they make a movie out of it. because it it's it's such an insane. story it's just kudos to you for getting. through it and becoming the person who's. sitting in front of me today yeah cuz. it's a wild ride yeah it's been it's. been a long journey um but but it's it's. nice to be on this side of it I'll tell. you how many Cults are active right now. in the country do we know no we.

certainly don't know but there is such a. thing as a cult directory which you. would mentioned to that so when I was on. I did a local television right at the. beginning when the book came out um. Frank Buckley and the woman who was uh. his producer he was asking at the end. it's like oh you know I didn't know this. cold existed how did I not know Etc and. she said well I I did my factchecking. before we booked her and it's in the. cult directory and he's like what. there's a cult directory and the field. is actually in the cult directory and I. didn't even know that I was like w so. it's been reported so I think a more.

interesting question actually is why are. these Cults not shut down I mean there's. a bunch of them like you said someone. told you there's just tons of them that. are active in California and they don't. know if it's are the like freedom of. speech that we have going on isn't the. real question like how do you define a. cult yeah because Scientology has tax. exempt status in the United States which. indicates that it's a legitimate. religion because they sue the IRS they. got and they won they smart they got. thousands of dudes threatened to sue the. IRS and they filed lawsuits and I guess. the IRS caved and said all right we.

don't want to deal with all this well I. mean which is really powerful of them it. really is but also if you declare. yourself a religion then you do get tax. empt status um but I think what makes a. CT is yeah I mean there's like the Steve. Hassen thing that we talked about but. you know this is really really high. control but the question is unless the. abuse is reported in real time it's. really hard to find and the people who. are in The Cult a don't recognize it's a. cult CU nobody's in a cult calls it a. cult and then B are loyal to the cult so.

they're not talking you can't just go in. and ask people they're not going to tell. you right I would not have told you I. would there's no way when I was there. when I was 16 I would never had this. conversation right not just not publicly. I wouldn't had it privately either yeah. I mean you don't think it's Ault if it's. the truth if you think it's the truth. you think this isn't Ault we're just the. people living the right way right yeah. but there's a lot of people who believe. that I think yeah about themselves they. believe that about religions too I mean. the the fact that people want to say. that there's like there's certain people.

that talk historically about the. Christian religion and they refer to it. as a cult like just historically like. this is the Christian cult and this is. what they did like as you would say this. is the the Hindu cult this is the this. cult that cult they don't think of it as. we have this problem like religion cult. different things but it's groups of. people that have very specific rules. that you need to live by that's mandated. by a higher power yes like if you just.

break it down to what the ingredients. are like you could tell me it's a steak. but it has all the ingredients of a. carrot cake I think this might be a. carrot cake no no no we call it a steak. like but it seems like it's got carrots. it seems like a carrot cake you know and. that's religion and cult like there's. this very blurry line so Scientology. should win that lawsuit so who's to say. like what they Mormons aren't legit or. they are legit okay so they get tax. exempt status but Scientology doesn't. why yeah I don't think you can come up.

with a legitimate reason why and in all. these groups Scientology and Mormonism. too there's these inner circles that are. much much more more devout so there's. plenty of people who Define themselves. as Mormon or scientologists who aren't. living this really narrow life but the. people at the center are but that's the. question is like how hard is it to form. a religion is it really easy like how. easy easy is it it to get that tax exemp. status how many people do you feel like. I could do it I bet you could do it I. feel like I could do it I bet you could. do it for sure but it's one of those. things it's like how many you would.

imagine that everybody would be doing it. it's a great way to just trick the. government sure you don't have to give. them any money yeah I think I think. someone did that right Jamie like a. spaghetti monster or something and. actually created the Church of that and. you got T they got tax exemp status for. that the Flying Spaghetti Monster well. you it would be really hard to argue. especially when you're dealing with. something like Scientology when you have. a science fiction writer who is you know. he's he's the most prolific fiction.

writer of all. time elron hubard is he wrote more words. down and had them published than any. human being that's ever lived I think he. was a boy scout too actually was he yeah. we should check that one but I think he. was my favorite is when he's in the sea. org and he's got like this military. jacket on he just gave himself a bunch. of medals he's got like this is tax of. medals. have you gone to the museum which one I. think there's more than one but there's. the one in Hollywood no no I didn't I. did I've met with them before I I got um.

audited where you hold on to the cans. and they did I did that and you could. feel the energy I was filming uh a. television show in San Diego and they. had we were near a park and this I. wasn't as famous back then I could get. away with it they didn't know how I was. and I sat down with this dude and he. went through the whole thing with me. with the e- meter and he telling and I. realized somewhere along the line that. he's just a dude who joins sent. Scientology and now part of his job is. to go out and convert but he's not very. good at it like he's not he didn't. convert you no no well not only that. he's not good at selling it he was like.

like very non- enthusiastic about it cuz. I would have thought that like all the. cult members like super pumped to get. you to join but this guy was just like. lost like I guess this is my people now. and uh yeah hold on to the eem meter so. it was interesting it's like he wasn't. even so like it reshaped in my mind I. was like every person trying to. indoctrinate you into this cult is going. to be like really char Manic and really. locked in no those are the leaders right. they get the regular folks to go out to. the park and annoy people and get yelled. at you [ __ ] whackadoo like yeah so.

that's the guy that I met people at the. top don't want to do that it was very. weird I feel like you could be a co-. leader Joe if you wanted to be I don't. think it's that hard I feel like you. could you know I think it's that hard if. you decided it was one of your life. goals hit me up and I'll give you some. like tips and you'll be you'll be there. in another week or two I'm not. interested if it's a cult it's a cult. you could leave anytime. there's no requirements and just say. you're in and you're in okay you're not. I don't care I don't think the. pastafarians have tax exempt status.

they're called but but the. scientologists do if you if you read the. [ __ ] story anybody that reads that. story the story of the thetans and the. volcano and the aliens and the spirits. it's really interesting it's crazy it's. crazy if you read uh Lawrence writes. going clear it's a very fascinating book. that sort of details the whole history. of El Ron herard creating it and he was. basically a crazy person who was self-. diagnosing you know and so he was like. self counseling he was using all these.

self-help books and psychology books. trying to figure out how to live life. and that was dianic yeah you've read. some of that right yeah well I I bought. it I I in the 1990s they had those uh. infomercials where was the volcano and. the books were flying out of the volcano. it's a funny and I didn't know that it. it meant like I didn't know the whole. story behind the volcano where like the. the aliens throw the [ __ ] Frozen. Souls into the V all that crazy [ __ ] so. um I just thought it was a self-help. book and back then I was really into. self-help books I bought like Anthony.

Robbins audio cassettes and all that. [ __ ] I was I was into things like that. sure and so I was like oh that seemed. like how to maximize your life in this. commercial I'm like oh interesting so I. bought it online or on the phone I think. I think back then you called it wasn't. online and uh they never stopped sending. me [ __ ] they sent me [ __ ] for years for. years it was invit to this and. invitations to that and you know half. off of this and free that and come here. and meet with us and they just wouldn't.

stop they just bombarded me with stuff. well you would be a good get if they. could get you so you had all these. iterations of like these self-help you. know stages of all these things through. all all of it right all the ways that. you have self-help in a sense so what. has been the most useful to you in being. the kind of person you want to. be um um time Time's A big one um. learning over time. experiences introspective thought making.

decisions based on truth rather than. thing than based on what you want to. believe. and just the accumulation of Life. Experiences like a life well-lived. and then psychedelic drugs yeah those. have been very effective those are the. big ones those the psychedelic drug. breakthroughs are the ones where you you. come I always say that it's like control. alt delete for your. brain and then your your brain reboots.

with a fresh desktop but now there's. only one folder in that desktop and that. folder says my old [ __ ] and you have. a decision either you open up that. folder and start behaving exactly how. you used to because you have a pattern. that you're accustomed to or you try. to re-engage with the world re interface. with the world with this newfound. experience as a. guide. yeah I think that's what the heart of.

all religious experiences are I think. there was people back then that. experimented with psychedelic drugs and. they had profound experiences and they. might have even experienced entities. they might have even had interaction. with God it might be a real thing that. you could do with the right stuff and I. think people have been talking about it. and writing it on Cave walls and and. depicting it in Many religious texts and. drawing images of it on the [ __ ]. ruins of Egypt I mean it's everywhere it.

was in the ucini mysteries in Greece it. was it's everywhere psychedelic drugs. have been everywhere throughout human. history I think they. probably shaped a lot of the way people. formulated their ideas about religion. absolutely and I think that a lot of. people believe that it was the foraging. of those mushrooms that led toyle elic. drugs that like led the cultivation of. communities that were religiously based. yeah but that they really came from just. looking for food initially and then they.

would have these experiences and um they. could see something bigger than the life. they were living I always wondered why. the Hindus don't eat. cows like how did that become religious. specifically cows right and does it have. anything to do with the fact that they. make mushrooms like CU mushrooms growing. on cow [ __ ] and if if you had cows that. were connecting you to God you wouldn't. want to eat them they would be a form of. a God yeah don't eat Betsy Betsy's cool. she brings us the mushrooms yeah because. that's where the mushrooms grow it mean. is it a coincidence that mushrooms grow.

on cow [ __ ] I don't know what what is. the original origin of why Hindus don't. eat cows cuz I really don't know but I. know that there have been cultures that. were cattle worshiping cultures that. also had mushroom. iconography there's uh there's. some God I forget the name of the. culture just a weird like Chuck doll. hiok or something like that but it's a a. culture that had all all their. iconography was like cattles cattle and.

mushrooms yeah or some of their. iconography I shouldn't say that like. some of their their writings what's left. it's like so many cultures that show. evidence that they've been doing stuff. with psychedelic drugs forever it. probably formulated so many of their you. know like their shamanistic. practices and how they organize their. culture and their communities they'll. probably all do rituals together to. connect to each other you know stare the.

Stars about psychedelics though that is. so beautiful compared to Cults and Cults. don't do these because they tap you into. yourself and you have your own unique or. semi unique but you know you have your. own individual experience of what it. means to you yeah and Colts can't allow. you to have that that's true but you. know there are a lot of instances of. guys who are Shaman uh even in the. rainforest that do creepy [ __ ] well. they're human yeah they're not just. human it's like they do start running. things like a cult even though they're.

they're Shaman and they're giving people. iasa like there's that's depressing yeah. well certain of them certain some of. them might have gravitated towards that. with the that intention in mind right. like they might not have been born true. of the shamanistic spirit they might. have entered into it at a point in life. like as a con artist you know which does. happen it does happen like people. infiltrate certain kind of groups of. people if they feel like it's a bunch of.

vulnerable people in those groups and a. bunch of like easily influenced and you. know open to interpretation and you know. you could just tell them that you're. connected to God in a very unique way. and all a sudden you're a guru you know. yeah yeah there's a lot of those guys. too I mean that was the wild wild. country guy you know he was like a legit. Guru said some Osho said some brilliant. things but also was [ __ ] crazy out of. his mind it's a freak I feel like we. need to be skeptical of anyone who tells.

us that they know the word of God that. like they are connected to God and. you're not right so if if you tell me. this is my experience and I ask you. questions I can choose to follow you or. not follow you right based on whether or. not I like the results of your. experience Etc but somebody who says no. God told me this and this is the only. way but imagine if God really did tell. you and nobody wanted to believe you. well I'm sure I really am a prophet yeah. well that was my grandpa guys I know. this is crazy I know this sounds crazy.

but I just got back from the mountain. and God gave me a series of rules I got. to give it to you yeah yeah nobody would. believe you which is really ironic about. today like Christians really want Jesus. to return but like what amount of. convincing would you have to do to get. people to believe you were really Jesus. you'd have to do so much work and and. how many people would be convinced that. it's Satan pretending to be Jesus so. then there'd be that battle the same. people that think Michelle Obama is a. dick there's going to be people that.

think they're going to think the. nuttiest of things yeah and then Jesus. is going to be like guys guys guys I am. not Satan I'm actually Jesus nobody. believe him we would [ __ ] crucify him. again and then people realize God damn. it we did it again we did it again we. could have kept him around and learn. from him and now they're going to have. to rewrite Christianity every a few. thousand years he comes back and they. [ __ ] kill him. again cycle of life well that would be. that's the really scary thing to think. that if a if the Son of God really did.

return if that is a real a real true. thing how the [ __ ] would we ever believe. that we don't believe anything anymore. yeah I mean the the tradition right is. this trumpet is going to sound and uh. you think the trumpet in the sky but we. would be convinced as the government. that's air horns they're tricking us. this is the ultimate false flag the. Jesus returns false flag I mean that's. what a lot of people think is going on. with the UFO reports yeah yeah they. think it's [ __ ] they think it's the.

government and the government's lying to. us about that they're from another. planet you know which is you. know they lie about everything like if. they're telling you something this these. are offworld crafts I'm like oh when did. we make these like shut the [ __ ] up when. do we make these you're saying they're. at from another planet for real I don't. believe you I mean it could be case of. crying wolf like maybe they're telling. the truth but boy seems a little. suspicious and that would be the same. thing with the Jesus thing like if Jesus. really did come back and there was some. fundamental christianis uh.

fundamentalist Christians that were in. government that wanted the world to know. so they had a press conference and we. have definitive proof that Jesus has. returned and we need to listen to him. everybody like get the [ __ ] out of here. no one would believe. it that's what's crazy about today if. Jesus came back today and the world was. in the middle of chaos if we're in the. middle of World War II and Jesus returns. there's a real likelihood that they. would crucify him again or something. similar real likelihood can't disagree. with you he falls in the wrong group of.

people the modern day version of the. Romans right you could fall into the. wrong group of people and like if Jesus. like accidentally landed in Isis. country could you imagine I don't know. if it would be an accident but okay. right probably not an accident but maybe. you know Jesus is just like let me just. go down there and he wasn't specific. enough and God didn't say like where do. you want to go like send me to Manhattan. no he said just bring me to Earth and. you just dropped him off right in Isis.

Camp oh yeah that'd be very dangerous. yeah yeah and then the whole thing. starts all over again and then we have. to tell the story about the guy who came. from God he was God's son and Isis. killed him I don't think we've changed. that much since the Pharisees and. Sadducees and all that yeah I mean we. changed a little but I think so much of. our change is but not a human nature. change right that's what I going to say. so much of our change is technological. so much of our change as society and. wooden buildings and concrete structures. and Roads and metal forks phones and.

metal forks yeah that's what's changed. but the actual tissue is real similar. it's real similar to people that lived. 10,000 years ago yeah so if yeah we. we've got the the human nature like more. suppressed now than it's ever been. before but like we were talking about. earlier if you're in a crowd situation. when things go chaos then you go oh. we're still this thing we're still a. programmed for war we're still. programmed for chaos it's all in US. yeah yeah and MOB mentality all of that.

it's it's people change they absolutely. change when they're in a group the group. dynamics are always different I think. you see it online too I think mob. mentality exists not even just in a. physical space but I think it exists in. a digital space too I think when when. people gang up on people online on. Twitter and those kind of things I think. that's the same thing I think it's the. same kind of mob mentality it's the same. sort of energy that is in us it's very. creepy yeah it's very creepy and it's. one of those things where it's you're.

you're like how do we ever get that out. how do we ever get these uh ancient. primate. inclinations out of the modern human. organism I think if we had an answer for. that that we would be very very very. wealthy maybe or the government will. kill. you yeah you know it would have be hard. to control people if you had the answer. to that yeah I think for individuals the. most important thing is exercise it's. one of the most important things I. should say because it's uh it's you can.

induce enough stress voluntarily that. the regular stress of the outside world. is mitigated because you already. experienced a higher level of difficulty. in your day by choice than the world can. impose upon you so if you have rigorous. workout schedules if you like to run if. you want to lift weights if you want to. do y. like you want to do something J Jitsu do. something that's physically taxing. that's what you should do do something. like that and this the physical act of. forcing yourself to do something.

extremely difficult that makes you. uncomfortable for a short period of time. but makes the rest of the day much. easier yeah that's what it is you got to. just feed the monkey inside of you you. got to like don't deny its existence. just do something to that thing to calm. it down give it food you know yeah I. wonder statistic Al those of us who. exercise if we are less inclined to get. online and terrorize other people in mob. mentality I would guess that may be true. I would bet that's true a lot of the. people that I know that terrorize people.

in M mentality they're extremely. unhealthy they look they look terrible. they're they're just they get addicted. to it and they get addicted to. interacting online on Twitter all the. time and like gauging you know the. temperature socially of how people think. about them based on this like verbose. [ __ ] they just typed on Facebook but. it's like it becomes this integral part. of the way they engage with other human. beings and it's very nonhuman it's very. recent it's very nonhuman it's it's it's.

too Limited in the way uh you interact. with it it's just like you can get good. information online and you can get. interesting discussions on Twitter but. you could also get like you're dealing. with like legitimately mentally ill. people and I don't use that term lightly. okay I'm not saying schizophrenic I'm. not saying iic depressive but if you are. a person that has a gambling addict. addiction if you're a person that has an. addiction to betting on the horses.

you're mentally. ill you have this thing you're sick with. all right if you can't stop smoking. cigarettes you're mentally ill you're. you have this thing that you can't stop. you're physically attracted to it you're. physically addicted to it but you're. also mentally ill because you don't. recognize that you should stop before. you get [ __ ] lung cancer right that's. the same thing with everything I think I. think these are just like normal. patterns and I think people that are. addicted to arguing with people on. Twitter they're mentally ill this is. this is serving the same thing is online. poker this is serving the same thing as.

fill in the blanks whatever you like to. do that you probably shouldn't be doing. scratch tickets Lottery whatever it is. that you you just can't get out of your. head because you got locked into it. you're mentally ill you're mentally ill. just like when you have a cough you're. physically ill yeah when you're online. 12 hours a day arguing with people. you're mentally ill and maybe you're. mentally ill and having good discussions. maybe you're mentally ill and engaging. in sometimes productive conversations. but you're also you're heightening your.

levels of anxiety and this bizarre. non-natural way of interfacing with. other human beings and you're living in. that most of the time so you're you're. going to suffer in the way you interact. with people on a regular basis and you. see that bleed out too right you see. people like act like they're on Twitter. and people in real life and and people. like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you. like why are you acting like this. because they're so used to communicating. like that on Twitter and on Facebook and. Instagram that they think it's normal to.

just be completely rude to people yeah. can't do that in the wilderness right. there's not enough uh self reception to. do that in the wilderness right and you. can't do that face to face because it. feels weird yeah if you do that fa if. you if you talk to people face to face. the way people talk to people just. constantly on Twitter you would have. fist fights everywhere people would be. just fighting they'd be pushing each. other and hitting each other you'd have. murders like it's just it's just a. shitty way to talk so if you're doing. that you're mentally ill so if you have.

gangs of mentally ill people that are. just constantly engaging with other. gangs of mentally ill people online all. day long arguing over everything. cultural everything environmental every. fill in the blanks climate change fill. in the blank Ukraine whatever it is pal. free Palestine [ __ ] [ __ ] you it's it's. all day long mentally ill. people. yeah and I think China's laughing at us.

oh they said that they yes I mean I. don't know if they set it all up but. they have infiltrated it they have done. a wonderful job I China I say yeah way. to go that Tik Tok effective [ __ ]. genius yeah what you've done is genius. yeah I mean they've definitely. infiltrated uh universities definitely. they grants and funds they put money. into things they donate to things they. it's what they've done is wild it's wild. and I would say that the same um I guess.

impulses that make people do what. everything you're describing are really. the same things that keep people in. Cults like there was a lot of the. similar traits of people who become. mentally ill because they are constantly. only um focusing on one person's. definition of anything yeah yes yes and. so if Colts were online doing that to. each other that's what they would sound. like oh most certainly Mark andreon. again talked about that as well he he. said they have if you look like the woke.

people online they have all the. characteristics of a cult they have. excommunications they'll savagely attack. former members yeah they have rules and. there's there's things that you uh. there's a suspension of disbelief that. you have to use in order to adopt. certain things you have to you have to. be willing to say things you know aren't. really really true and they all get you. to do it you know well because it's part. of the in group right like that's how. you get status yeah but it's it's just.

fascinating to see how far that stuff. goes up you know like even with like. people that run universities like they. believe it people that are in Congress. they believe it it's like Jesus like. this is we're all in a. cult cult thinking is not like I think. people have this thing in their head. that cult are like small groups of. people that are gullible no and I don't. think that's true I think I think you. could have a call of 150 million people. easy easy if you have someone.

controlling your behavior your. information your thoughts and your. emotions then yeah and if you have a. good system setup where everybody. polices everybody else like woke people. on Twitter and then you have like a good. system of like the person who's in. charge and the underlings and all the. other people and there like and people. are benefited from it in a good way yeah. you get a bunch of businesses going you. you can infiltrate corporations with. this nonsense you you can get in the. Supreme Court it's you could do wild. things with it you just you just need to.

have like a strong structure of support. from the other members online yeah you. just need get people to police each. other and police themselves yeah that's. the big one right that's the North. Korean. model get people to police themselves. yeah get people to rat on each. other yeah think we just came full. circle on that yeah I think your story. is very important for people to hear and. I'm really um I'm really happy that you. had the courage to say it because I. would imagine it would be very very hard.

to tell that story very hard to explain. the vulnerabilities that you experienced. and what it was like to be this. 17-year-old kid is's still a kid who's. like you know just becoming a woman out. there in the world and you just escaped. from a cult where you couldn't even see. movies and all you sung was h and you. thought the end was near and then you're. out there in the world just interacting. with all these people that went to like. normal schools and had normal childhood. American experiences and you have to.

kind of relearn everything yeah and. there's a lot of excommunication that. still goes on in terms of um it's my. family of origin it's all every single. cousin I had was raised there I did not. have any cousins on the other side 100%. of my relatives were raised in there and. so yeah you have to be willing to in a. sense um step away from the acceptance. that you get which I think could relate. to many many many many people who have. nothing to do with religion but yeah all. the different types of Cults in the. worlds it's like being willing to stand. back and say wait I don't believe this I.

think this story your story is really. important too for people that may be. vulnerable you know they maybe they. don't have the tools to discern like. maybe they're being courted by a group. you know they don't have the tools to. discern like why just fundamentally if. someone's telling you that they have. secret information that only they have. and it comes from a mystical Source. either comes from Aliens or comes from. God or probably not it's probably not.

it's probably not I mean it might be. Jesus again if Jesus came back who's. going to believe him but it most likely. you're dealing with someone who full of. [ __ ] so at least today we know that you. know in 1930 when your grandpa first. started I mean he was just running wild. like there's no. Wikipedia you can say anything you can. just go oh or Joseph Smith who created. The Book of Mormon you know like that.

[ __ ] guy he was like 14 years old wow. yeah said he found golden tablets that. contained The Lost work of Jesus but. only he could read it because he had a. magic Rock and everybody's like okay. yeah that's the kind of thing my. grandfather said to and and people. believed it there was a lot of those. guys back then yeah you could weigh with. a lot lot back then what do you think is. the motivation like what is it about. human beings and almost always men. there's only a few women that have been. successful cult leaders yeah it's pretty.

rare yeah the one that was on the HBO. documentary I haven't seen it yet but. everybody Raves about it you know what. I'm talking about I do but I haven't. seen it the the lady became anorexic. what is it love what was that one Jamie. what's it. called it's supposed to be amazing but I. haven't seen it but what is it. that that that seems to be a recurring. pattern so I I've always found it really. fascinating to say that anyone could be. a cult member anyone could fall for that.

especially if you're young but it's who. would become a cult leader like that's. the bigger question Jim Jones right I. feel like uh there's no simple answer. for that but in my grandfather's case. and in many other of these young men. cases they were Outsiders in some way. and they had some bone to pick and they. wanted I think they maybe started out of. wanting belonging but then they got um. really drunk on the power so quickly and. Manson yeah yeah yeah yeah so I've been. teaching in um prisons by the way it's. part of like my well this been part of. my career and I worked with um lesie van.

hton who was a I mean she's been. released now but she was the tutor in. the program I was working in and you. know she was like what 19 when she. committed these participated in but she. followed Manson as if he was a cult. leader it was very similar and I'm not. like talking about the politics of all. that or like I'm just saying that I mean. I'm very grateful that nobody asked me. to kill anybody you know I'm not I would. like to think I wouldn't but I don't. think any of us know right if you were. 12 years old and your whole life you'd.

lived in that cult and you were told to. kill some man cuz he's a demon right and. if you killed them and they were like. hugging you you did it you saved us you. saved us from the demon you'd be pumped. yeah I think you would be of course. children like that are if you especially. if you get they trained in armies at. that age exactly exactly exactly and I. mean that's also why people like people. joining the Army when they're young not. just because they're strong right but. also because they're mentally unaware of. the conflicts of the world it's really. difficult to get a 60-year-old man to go.

to war right based on you know we found. weapons of mass destruction okay he'll. put on his reading glasses like let me. see this [ __ ] what do you got show me. what the [ __ ] you got I'm going to fly. to Afghanistan show me what you have. yeah yeah see you need him a yes sir. we're going to go kill the bad guy sir. that's what you need but the cult. leaders have some something that they. really feel like they need like they. need people's respect because I don't. think they could get it in other ways. and so they create this whole world and.

honestly once people start believing you. it's probably a pretty big high yeah um. I had David H house on the podcast the. other day and he did that um documentary. series that's on peacock about the Harry. krishnas and about this one guy that. created this sect of the har christas. and was it was all child molestation and. murder they're killing people and it's. just it's a crazy it's a really good doc. he's a really good director and the. documentary series is really interesting. but it's just like godamn that pattern.

just repeats itself over and over wakeo. holy hell up there wild wild country. it's like everywhere the the the same. sort of pattern repeats itself and it. always almost always at least falls. apart mhm it's hard to keep that stuff. going because but you're a crazy person. yeah and you have to keep upping the. right it's not like Warren Buffett he's. not out there starting Cults it's not. it's not like people are good at. organizing businesses it's like crazy. people like wild crazy people but. there's this inclination to get people.

to follow you and to tell them what to. do and tell them how to live life and to. make them worship you it's [ __ ]. strange that that's just some sort of. weird evolutionary response like because. in tribal cultures there was always a. leader and that leader was generally the. wisest person who had the most life. experience who could tell you hey this. is the plant you can't eat don't go over. there they'll kill you you know this. this thing runs faster than you get away.

from it that snake's poisonous like you. had to know how to make an arrow you. know this this guy knew so that was your. leader and if you listen to him you're. going to stay alive and if you don't. listen to him you're going to watch. people die right next to you and you go. oh they didn't listen and you're going. to experience that at a young age where. people die cuz they used to die all the. [ __ ] time of course yeah just infant. mortality was like 50% back then and. then you're like what are the what are. the odds are going to live to 30 not so. good bro there jaguars in the [ __ ]. trees like you're you're [ __ ] you're.

in trouble and that's why we had tribal. leaders and then as we expanded into. these societies and cities and large. groups of human beings we still have the. desire to have one individual leader. because we have this primate genetic. imprint in US of the alpha who runs the. people to the point where we'll pretend. that someone's Alpha like we'll pretend. Joe Biden is really running the country. we'll pretend and so many Democrats are. all in on it like the most culty of cult. members the wokest of woke are the ones.

who are the most likely to try to. [ __ ] Gaslight you that he's fine and. he's doing great and he's the best. president ever and just look at the. economics and look at the economy's. doing better and look at the you know. he's on top he's never been sharper like. what do you shut up you're in a cult. you're in a cult just like if you were. in the Moonies just like if you're in. the Holy hell cult it's the same thing. it's just patterns of belief and we all. have them and we're susceptible to them. because life is a massive mystery it's a. massive scary weird mystery with a.

lifespan it's got a finite lifespan you. have a certain amount of time here and. you never think like you have enough. time and you never think you did enough. and it always feels weird and you never. even know what the [ __ ] is going on. while you're driving your car or sitting. on the bus the whole time you're like. what is this what is this all about so. any time you can get some relief from. that someone comes along they go I've. got the answers right come with me. Michelle okay so that's not happening. anymore but you know when you said that.

too I was thinking like it is it's the. the belief that there's answers instead. of what I think I think you and I. believe is that it's always more. questions like we don't have the answers. and um we will there will be continuing. there'll be questions that we never. answer In Our Lifetime well also we. exist in a certain. frequency in reality but there's. subatomic reality that's so damn. confusing that's somehow or another a. part of us that we can study like what's.

all that magic what's all that magic. going on where you got particles that. are both moving and still they exist and. reappear they disappear we don't know. where the [ __ ] they're going what's. happening there what is that stuff. what's all that stuff there's so much. that we don't know there's so there's so. much weirdness just in the observable. universe that it's uh the whole thing is. a crazy mystery and to not approach it.

that way and to approach it with some. bizarre confidence that you have the. answers like you're not doing anybody. any good because you're full of [ __ ]. you're you're you're full of [ __ ] with. yourself you're full of [ __ ] if you. believe it you're full of [ __ ] with. yourself you're definitely full of [ __ ]. with other people if you're telling them. you believe it you you can't know we. have guidelines and there ways that we. can live that are going to be better for. everybody and we should definitely go. that way definitely don't try to harm. people definitely try to be nice as much. as possible try to be cool to your. friends try to enjoy your time here try.

to leave people with a smile try to do. your best do all that stuff like if we. do all that stuff we're good but as soon. as someone comes along and tells you no. you have to do this because this is the. word of God. like be. suspicious cuz it's been around before. it's it's not like this is a unique. thing I feel like be suspicious is some. good advice be suspicious yeah be. suspicious of anybody that's trying to. get you to do things like they're trying.

to tell you to do a thing and that if. you don't do a thing you're a bad person. and the people that are engaging in. other things other than what they're. telling you are all going to hell like. okay let me put my ring glass on let me. see this hell you got a [ __ ] YouTube. video I can watch like. how much do you know how are you sure do. you have the GPS coordinates of that you. get the onx maps of hell I don't think. you know what you're talking about and.

if you don't say that if you don't have. the humility to say that this is at the. very least a massive mystery we know so. much I mean we know so much more than. we've ever known before and thank God. there's people out there that are trying. to figure the world out thank God. there's people out there that are doing. the work and doing the. [ __ ] the the theoretical physic ists. and all the quantum mechanics people and. all the people that are like trying to. make rocket ships thank God you're out. there but at the end of the day this is. a crazy mystery that you go to bed every.

night you close your eyes and you. disappear hopefully for eight hours if. you get in your eight hours Michelle and. then that alarm clock goes off and then. you re-engage with reality and assume. that this is the exact same world that. you went to bed eight hours ago for you. assume. but you just re-engage with reality we. look forward to it everyone's scared to. die but no one's scared to. sleep and we do it every night no one's.

scared I don't want to shut the lights. out I don't want to go to sleep no one's. scared to go to sleep everybody's like. oh my God I can't wait to sleep can't. wait to sleep and be recovered and then. you get up you have to do it it's a. requirement you have to go out you have. to stop if you don't you'll die yeah the. universe requires you to stop. interfacing with it for long stretches. of time yeah ideally 8 hours that's so I. he yeah full 30 your day yeah it's a. wild thing yeah 30 day you Rebo we.

process in our dreams in ways that we. don't understand it's very strange yeah. it's very strange just that alone is. very strange there's many many strange. things yeah but that alone is a strange. strange one that we've just accepted. because if that didn't exist and all of. a sudden everybody said listen we have. found uh a new thing like instead of. just being awake all the time uh if you. can just go to sleep you'll live longer. and you'll be better like what are you. talking around like you're just going to. shut off for eight hours and then what.

happens to me like can I see no what if. someone breaks into my house well you're. asleep [ __ ] that no one would want to do. that yeah but it's normal so we just do. it yeah yeah it's a mystery this is a. crazy ass mystery and what happens in. your dreams like why are those damn. things so real istic what the depends on. the night what the [ __ ] is going on in. dreams one thing happens if you smoke. pot your dreams kind of dull a little. bit sometimes but if you take long.

breaks off like uh we do sober October. and during sober October we don't do. anything and uh when you take long. breaks off you get wild dreams wild and. here's a little Pro tip if you want to. have the wildest dreams take New Tropics. before you go to bed take like alpab. brain before you go to bed because you. want to have these dreams yeah let's go. okay I even when I was a little kid I. used to love. nightmares when I was a little kid I. would look forward to a nightmare I.

would try to make me have. one wow cuz I liked horror movies so I. was like let's have a Let's uh get some. monsters in here I literally like go to. bed I like God I hope I get the [ __ ]. scared out of me I look forward to like. having a nightmare dream wow I had a. bunch of crazy ones too that I remember. I even wrote a bunch of them down cuz. they're so nuts. like plot of movies they were so crazy. but it just was a a thing where I I. thought of it as uh like an adventure. ride I would thought of like nightmares.

as an adventure ride like I knew I kept. waking up so okay all right after I was. like four or five like okay I'm waking. up so I know they're not real but it is. pretty fun if they're scary if I could. just relax so I was thinking that I. remember thinking that as a little kid. thinking like I think this's a way to. just make yourself have nightmares and. just do it for fun just like watching a. scary movie wow is any of that lucid. dreaming I've only done lucid dreaming. accidentally a couple of times and every. time I've done it I've recognized that.

uh I'm dreaming and then I wake up cuz I. recognize it that's the problem I don't. know how to chill do you remember most. of your dreams no I remember a lot of. them. though I don't remember most of them I. would say I. remember a small fraction of them but I. remember them for a long. time. yeah what about you I do I remember a. lot of dreams I mean I could never I. nobody would know if you remember all of. them for one how you know how would you.

know but yeah I still dream about the. field really M that makes sense yeah. yeah because it's in your subconscious. and you just like I'm still processing I. didn't have a bad time in high school it. wasn't the worst I had a pretty good. time in high school but I would have. nightmares that I had to go back to high. school like legitimate nightmares that. like I didn't get enough credits so I. didn't graduate so I had to go back. nightmares and high school was not that. bad now I can't imagine how much that. would be multiplied leaving a cult at.

formative years those years so like even. you yeah they're very formative and your. prefontal cortex is not you know. completely formed and so it's we. probably all go back to whatever degree. to that part of us but those nightmares. must be very Vivid for you though and. must be very extreme CU like I said I. would get nightmares from high school. which was nothing it was no big deal. wasn't bad at all I didn't have a bad. time in high school you know but it was. just the idea of being trapped in that. [ __ ] school another year was scary. and that's.

nothing yeah it's the being trapped I. have a lot of dreams like that. yeah yeah did they subside with time. they've gotten better you know I so I. just two days ago I met this guy who I. hadn't seen since I was a kid so for me. I kind of met him for the first time you. know in the sense of I don't remember. him but he said that reading forager and. he really said this and I it was he said. he had nightmares he's always had. nightmares this man is late 60s probably. maybe even 70 I don't know and he said.

that um reading it stopped his. nightmares because he thinks because. somebody validated so he didn't feel. like it was trapped in his head anymore. someone validated and named his. experience because he wasn't talking. about it wow not even to his own family. like his whole life he's never talked. about it and so having just singing a. book made him say like I'm not crazy you. know and so I just wonder sometimes if. our nightmares are are also thing I mean. it's great that you were like causing. ones on purpose but the kinds that like. really deeply disturb us I just wonder. if there if there are parts of us that.

we haven't fully come to terms with I. don't know I wonder but some of mine is. like Godzilla chasing me when I'm on a. skateboard like they don't make any. sense I I think um that doesn't sound. that scary I think there's certainly. like I mean I don't try to have. nightmares now I really only did that a. few times when I was a kid but the. nightmares that I do have the almost all. all of them are like really Primal ones. like I've had a lot of nightmares about. wolves like a lot over the years like. running from. wolves there's something about wolves.

cuz they're intelligent and they operate. in packs and they have some sort of. non-verbal communication where they. understand each other in some very weird. Sim to us in a lot of ways yeah yeah. they uh they freak me. out they really do you know they're not. that different from dogs yeah they're. lot different from dogs they're a lot. different from dogs well they are. because they're wild but I have a golden. retriever okay they're way different. than a golden retriever way different I. have a strange Shepherds and they're not. my dog is a love.

sponge he loves everybody if he came in. here he you're part of his pack oh yeah. no doubt but he's not a wolf okay. there's a big difference I mean he used. to be a wolf if you go back 20,000 years. ago or whatever it was when they started. taking these [ __ ] wolves were. willing to come by the forest fire or by. the campfire rather but the the wolves. that live and operate in the wild are. these ruthless majestic creatures who. are. intelligent right but the reason that.

you love your dog is the same reason uh. that wolves love each other you know I. mean there is this because they're part. of a pack and because they understand. relationships and I think the wolves. with each other you just not in. relationship with the wolf but right I. mean oh no of course they're scary but. oh yeah but they're because they're so. good at what they do right but that's. why we're scared of deer well yeah yeah. when you're in the woods with a rifle. deer should be [ __ ] scared yeah and. that's that's why they jump on the they. running away real quick and and that's.

the thing with wolves and human beings. like we've been food for them for a long. time that's what Little Red Riding is. all about that's that's really that's. what the big bad wolf is all about. that's that's the whole story the story. is about wolves that will eat your kids. cuz that's what they did yeah they eat. people people World War I had to be they. had a ceasefire between the Germans and. the Russians because too many of them. were getting eaten by Wolves that's why. they had a ceasefire yeah they had a. ceasefire wow and they killed the wolves.

and they went back to killing each other. they couldn't they couldn't have just. like taking a break and said like oh. maybe we should be on the same side no. they were losing so many people to. wolves that they they had these packs of. wolves in Russia and this was trench. warfare so they horrific wound so these. people would be lying The Trenches with. a bullet hole and then you'd hear wolves. tearing these people apart and they'd be. screaming yeah they would send people. out on patrol and just find a boot with. a foot in it oh my God yeah you should.

be scared of wolves you should be scared. of wolves yeah I mean they're. reintroducing wolves now to Colorado. they just did and they just had the full. F first wolf depredation where wolf. killed a calf at a ranch and that's just. the beginning there's a reason why they. killed those things I don't think they. should have I don't think they should. have made wolves extinct in the the. western United States like they did I. think it was horrible they put strick n. in horses and they left them out there. and the Wolves would eat it and die they. did horrible terrible things but you.

don't want wolves you don't want them. around you don't want a lot of them. especially with these [ __ ] ass people. today they you're gonna [ __ ] lose a. lot of folks if those things get to high. numbers you're going to lose a lot of. folks a lot of people going to be. camping they're going to get. surrounded just needs certain numbers. needs numbers where they they think they. can get away with stuff like that you. know numbers where there's not enough. people with guns they find out that they. think people are just hikers they don't. seem to have any weapons they they know. what a weapon is they figure that out.

over time like wolves see enough rifles. they know what a rifle is they're not. stupid they're not stupid they're. they're scary animals but they're also. amazing but you got to keep an eye on. them but people that live in cities be. suspicious our theme for today be. suspicious be icious of systems right. because that that is a system of. predator and prey and if you're having a. hard time walking up that hill guess. what guess what side you're on guess. what side you're on you think you're a.

predator well you're not you're not you. can't even get up the hill wolves run up. a hill like it's nothing yeah like we. they just [ __ ] go over that Hill like. it ain't [ __ ] they can run 45 miles an. hour and chase you down and eat you. stupid yeah be suspicious be suspicious. did they teach you guys when you were. doing the survival training how to like. do everything like get water hunt for. food like make your own fire know how to. distill um you know water in a pit from.

plants and how to distill urine and all. that great stuff wow yeah it's not. really a very practical skill that you. don't really have to do that on a daily. basis but if you know how to distill. water it's like pretty wise yeah I mean. you can do a lot with de just like by. putting but you do need a piece of plas. you can use like a rain jacket or like a. windbreaker or whatever but you put it. you dig a pit and you put all the. vegetation in like whatever you can get. even in the desert like if you can get. you know yucka or whatever and you put. it in the pit and then the condensation.

you know when it rises you need to. collect it and then you can collect the. Dew and uh so you get it off the bottom. surface of the of the plastic yeah but. you make a little like pool of it and. you mhm yeah damn yeah and you can you. can survive off of that wow how much. water can you get out of De well it. depends on how you ideally you have more. than one pit of this but you are going. to to at some point move on a little in. Forge where there's more plants but um. you can live and you also of course want. to know what plants can give you water.

right until you can find a source of. water what's the good. ones the like which good plants what so. what's the good ones that will get you. water well any really the darker green. and the you know the bigger the leaf but. in the desert I mean generally if you. have the things that give you a lot of. water are already at water sources mhm. right because that's they're water Rich. so it's in the desert where you need it. and anything that has I mean Cactus can. give you water but it's you're not going. to get as much de as you do off of let's. say Sage. Brush yeah so Sage bushes yeah you can. get some do so what do you do you take.

them out of the dirt and you bury them. yeah you you dig a pit you don't bury. them like they would grow you you leave. them like Lush so you you dig this pit. so you can use it over and over and you. take the brush and you put it in the pit. and then you cover it with whatever you. know sort of plastic you have if you. have a tarp that's great I don't know. why you'd have a par you planting it or. you just Le leaving it there cuz you. didn't yeah it's just you you don't need. the roots or whatever so it's just. sucking the water out of that plant as. it dehydrates in the heat with the. plastic over it and the water but it's. overnight so it's not really the I mean.

it's yeah so it'll like you've seen. condensation like even on your car right. and so you're just collecting that. that's just a source of collecting it. and you put more of it in one place so. you can collect more how much can you. get well I mean if you get a quarter cup. you're pretty lucky wow but you know you. just can't move around a lot if you. don't want to de hydrate but if you do. that enough you can live you'll survive. for a while water's really important way. more important than food yeah yeah I. mean you know that yeah yeah he could. survive a long time without food yeah we.

talked about this dude that was really. fat and he went on a fasting diet with. IV vitamins and he he did it for 300. something you do a whole year if you're. heavy enough yeah but most people could. go a month pretty easily yeah like even. if you're not fat yeah you'd look like. [ __ ] at the end of course of course but. you could live can't do that with water. yeah yeah wow yeah I'm sure you hope you. don't ever have to use those skills I do. hope that and I am sure my skills are. not as good as they used to be yeah but.

just what you've told so far if the [ __ ]. is the fan I'm calling you you should I. you Jo I bet I should yeah I mean how. many years did you have to learn that. stuff I mean I learned them for a lot of. years and it gets inside of you and I. think that's the thing about muscle. memory right and I I believe in exercise. by the way too I mean I was trained like. that I canot exercise and I think that. just like exercise like I'm sure you. feel like [ __ ] if you don't exercise and. as do I but I also feel like when it. gets inside of you like what survival is. you feel I think without doing some of.

those things that you're not really. fully human at least I feel that way. wow yeah I like to eat off the Earth. even now like when I can you know I. still for I mean that's what picnic's. about aren't they no I meant like. actually picking things out of the. ground that I didn't plant I don't mean. gardening I mean you know like foraging. off the land if you know what to eat. it's still really great to have. something that grew there naturally like. indigenous plants yeah it's rewarding if. you could find a blueberry bush and pick. blueberries it's rewarding yeah.

elderberries yeah I think it's a part of. our past too like in our DNA get excited. yeah every chapter of my book has like. these descriptions of a of something you. can eat in the Angeles National Forest. and oh really yeah I mean not to say. that you know somebody would need a. little bit of training like I'm not. advocating that you just go out there. and like you know but I mean if you know. what you're doing yeah yeah you always. hear that with mushrooms like people. [ __ ] up and they eat the wrong mushrooms. and wind up dying yeah mushrooms are. scary they are you you there's a lot of.

them that'll kill you yes and then. there's a lot of them will keep you. alive yeah so if you're going to survive. you should know the difference yeah you. see this Argan that Paul Stam has gave. me this is a giant mushroom wow that's a. real mushroom yeah oh my God it's huge. let me check it out wow came off old. growth forest wow that's a real mushroom. that's incredible that nuts don't eat it. no you don't eat that one that one's. staying on the table I'm giving you some. advice no no but he sells them in pills. he actually yeah his uh company is.

called host defense you get it in pill. form it's good for your immune system. all right so forging I think I think so. too yeah yeah I'm sure I'm sure even. just getting dirt on you and being in. the wild and like that's what we're. supposed to do right like being in. sterile environments is probably the. worst thing for you immune system yeah I. mean atrophy that's actually been. studied yes yeah like just sort of like. exercise right like if you don't. exercise your atrophy if you don't. experience some other organisms we're.

we're a host of organisms we're not just. we're all interconnected yes we're all. interconnected yeah listen I've really. enjoyed this conversation thank you I've. enjoyed it too your journey is. remarkable it's very unusual and I think. you came out of on the other end a very. interesting person thank you and I. really appreciate you being here a lot. fun thanks for having me on it's been. wonderful hanging out with you I enjoyed. it very much thank you oh tell so tell. everybody how to get your book oh right. so forger field notes for surviving a. family cult it's available anywhere. books are sold so you get it online and.

um do you have social media do you have. Instagram I do I have Instagram I'm on. substack I am on Twitter but not a whole. lot and um yeah what your Instagram. Michelle Dow Z Michelle Dow Z yeah. there's at got all right beautiful all. right wasn't the first Michelle down on. Instagram unfortunately well thank you. very much I really enjoy thank you all. right bye everybody. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].