Joe Rogan Experience #2136 - Graham Hancock & Flint Dibble

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day okay good all right well this took a. lot of time to organize but I'm very. excited and I'm happy you're both here. thank you uh Flint uh please uh. introduce yourself to everybody what you. do and yeah hi my name is flint and I'm. an archaeologist I've done archaeology. my whole life uh my dad was an archa.

ologist and uh I'm just very passionate. about sharing archaeology and what we do. I find in general that people don't. really understand what modern. Archaeology is about and so I'm going to. try to get that across while here you. know that's that's my goal fantastic um. take that microphone and try to keep it. about a fif from your a fist from your. face one second we have to his uh HDMI. is not working it's not going through. okay all right we had a bit of a. technical issue but we're up so Flint uh. you were just explaining how uh your. your passion is archaeologist you're an.

archaeologist and and you have this. opportunity to sort of educate people on. how Archaeology is done yeah that's my. goal is to try to share what we do why. we do it and what our goals are with it. yeah okay terrific um and Graham. everybody knows you you've been on this. podcast about 10 times largely thanks to. you Joe oh I'm very happy happy to. introduce the world to it are we okay. Flint with the HDMI I think we've been. doing shows together since 2011 you I. think were one of my first real guests.

you might be the first real guest cuz. before that it was just my friends just. comedians yeah yeah and it was all in my. house and we ate pizza and it was yeah. fantastic um Jamie setting everything up. making sure we're good to. go okay um the way we agreed to do this. is Flint you wanted to open and you. wanted to do about 10 minutes and just. sort of explain things and so we'll let. you do that and then Graham you'll have. an opportunity to respond yeah yeah. thank you um Jamie do you mind pulling. up my screen.

here we go all right so look one of the. things that I see when I'm online and or. in person sharing Archaeology is I find. it's tough to get across what it is and. so I wanted to start with a fun example. so I understand that maybe not everybody. is can see the screen so Joe do you mind. actually just kind of describing what. this artifact is oh you're putting this. on me buddy yeah. exactly uh well this says Athenian red. figure from uh 470 BC and uh it is two.

people having sex it's a man on top of a. woman you see his penis you see it's uh. yeah it's very graphic it is very. graphic so what do you think this shares. about what Archaeology is any ideas well. I mean you're finding artwork and and. parts of civilization that were left. behind and you know have been around in. this case since over 2,000 years yeah. and for a long time Scholars thought. that a piece like this described sort of. life in Athens and they connected to. Athenian text sort of like Plato.

describing people having sex even right. and uh on the other hand however every. single piece of Athenian artwork with. graphic sex like this couples actually. [ __ ] with penises and stuff like that. ends up in Italy it's part of an. Athenian pornographic export market and. Kathleen Lynch and Shan Lewis and others. have published on this and so the real. point is is that what we're looking at. is is the painters are designing. something for consumers in Italy and. particularly in ruria and this instead. fits better in with telling us about.

life in rusans and the kind of stuff. that they show in their tombs sort of. romance between people or the kind of. sexual scenes that they designed. themselves in Italy as well and the. whole point here is that Archaeology is. not really about an artifact it's not. about a monument it's about our patterns. and so when we sort of look at how much. archaeology there is in the world this. is a map that shows the Horn of Africa. with every single archaeological site. that's been surveyed there and there's. 171,000 of them that's incredible looks.

amazing it's just and this is just. because of the terrain most of the many. of these are tombs for example Islamic. and pre-islamic tombs and so they're. visible on the surface and so in many. ways when we think about archaeology. today in the 21st century we're thinking. about big data sets and trying to. analyze them statistically and. understand the kind of patterns they put. together and we use Innovative. technology sort of liar lasers from the. sky to see these things underground for. example here are this publication by. canuto in 2018 records.

61,800 structures still to be excavated. found with lar and surface survey right. and so at the same time this this is for. people listening says ancient lowland. Maya complex as revealed by Airborne. laser scanning of northern Guatemala. that's amazing yeah and so I mean we. have this huge data set and with it we. get high resolution for example the. bottom image in red it shows lutters. trenches because while there's a lot of. archaeology because people have been. everywhere there's it's very fragile and. it's at risk and that's something I also.

want to take some time to get across a. bit while I'm here um and my own. research is very much big data oriented. too I've studied nearly a million animal. bones and teeth and Horn fragments from. ancient Greece like this pile here from. the island of creit um from aoria and in. particular I also want to get across the. kind of precision we have right now I do. what's called isotope analysis I look at. oxygen and carbon Isotopes in the teeth. of these animals and by taking multiple. samples on different parts of the teeth.

you can see the different areas that. I've drilled on that tooth on the right. right and what that does is it lets me. understand the diet of the animal and. where it's moving in the landscape. seasonally so in different seasons of. the year I can understand the kind of. ways that people are raising animals we. can do this with human remains too and. we can get this high level of resolution. and precision that people don't always. realize that we have right and so in. this case I'm here to try to discuss. with graham um and to test his Lost. Civilization hypothesis he has this he's.

written about it many books and he's uh. given many talks here and on Netflix and. he's talked about this idea of a lost. Advanced civilization from the Ice Age. an advanced civilization that's around. the globe right and in particular he. thinks there was a Glo a global. cataclysm at that time and the survivors. introduced agriculture architecture. astronomy and arts to hunter gatherers. and so I'm trying to T tackle this with. an open mind and I want to tackle this. with the perspective of my own.

experience and my own expertise and so. in that sense if you think about what. Carl Sean says extraordinary claims. require extraordinary evidence Graham is. in many ways the first person to admit. that the evidence he has is fingerprints. it's kind of what he thinks is this. technological transmission to hunter. gatherers but he does not have any. direct dated evidence of this. civilization it's after all A Lost. Civilization right and so what I've been. thinking through is how can my own EXP. experience and expertise kind of test.

this hypothesis in a fair way that's. kind of my goal here while here and so. I'm here to doing a lot of research I'm. here to present what I see are two clear. disproofs of a lost Advanced Ice Age. civilization and I'm I mean. archaeologists we fairly sure this does. not exist we've been looking for this. kind of civilization for several hundred. years it's it's this idea of a pre flood. civilization has been around for several. hundred years and so what I want to do. is focus on where my my own experience.

and expertise is my dad was an Ice Age. archaeologist he studied in the anal. caves and so I want to dig into some of. the stuff that he's excavated and. surveyed these are for example 100,000. year old stone tools from Egypt and so. we have just so much ice age evidence. and Graham usually ignores it and he. claims that the his civilization do you. have your notifications on or something. I don't know what that is the dongle is. doing that sorry if you hit mute maybe. it might stop yeah I just muted it okay. sorry about no worries no worries and so.

this this so you your claim was that. Graham ignores this my claim is that he. doesn't he ignores most of the evidence. for Hunter gathers in the Ice Age which. is we is that he ignores it or that he. doesn't focus on it as much as he's. focused on this ancient Advanced. civilization I I mean I think that's one. and the same I think if you're going to. look at the Ice Age we need to look at. the totality of evidence to understand. what's there and so for example he. proposes the reason why the Ice Age. civilization isn't there is because it's. underwater it's you know we've had uh.

200 ft of sea level rise since the. younger dras and therefore it's not. accessible and so I really want to focus. on Ice Age coastlines evidence from Ice. Age coastlines and excavations. underwater evidence from the Ice Age. things like that these areas where he. says that archaeologists don't look but. we are looking and what we find is the. ephemeral traces of hunter gatherers. rather than some sort of advanced. civilization and so that's one thing I. want to show I want to share this kind. of evidence some of it's new some of. it's not but I think it's the kind of.

thing that has a direct bearing on. looking for such an Ice Age civilization. when you're studying um these coastal. areas where these Ice Age people lived. and you're you're studying these. underwater um whatever what would you. call them are they cities are they towns. are they Villages no these are these are. so in this case this is a really brand. new F from like a month ago it's. actually a hunting wall off the coast of. Germany so it's where they had their. Camp yeah or maybe just where they drove. uh game along them but most of what's.

underw are lithic scatters scatters of. stone tools stuff like this what do you. have there I have a series of different. stone tools I'll show them off a little. later but let me touch on them yeah sure. how old is this uh the are these are all. modern replicas made by archaeologists. um some of them made by my dad and some. of them have been made by that's you can. hook us up with some real stuff sorry no. I can't bring real stuff I have a real. Arrowhead it's from here I do have an. ancient corn cob right here um from. about 1200 years ago from this Southern. Methodist University archaeology.

collection and I'll explain why this is. here in a bit but uh my question for you. though was um how much of the ground do. you think has actually been studied when. you're looking at these ancient uh Ice. Age Neanderthal populations or were they. Homo sapiens as well these are Homo. sapiens this is from you know right at. the end of the Ice Age so this is modern. humans yeah so these when when you're. finding remnants of ancient hunter. gatherers how much evidence how much of. the ground do you think You' stud. studied we've definitely not studied.

most of the ground but as I'll show. we've studied a lot and we actually put. together predictive models on how to. find this stuff and so there because. it's really expensive to go diving right. and so how many Dives do you think have. been done like how many times thousands. thousands yeah oh yeah and lots of. different sites have been found from all. over the world and specifically it was. done to try to locate these to try to. locate Stone Ice Age stuff yeah okay. yeah um and then my second thing I'd. like to focus on is food I am an. archaeologist who studies ancient food.

I'm an environmental archaeologist I've. studied millions of animal bones from. the past I've helped collect thousands. and thousands of seeds like these um and. it's something that people don't realize. we can get we we've we've developed. sampling methods and we now at this. point have millions of of archote so. seeds from ancient civilizations and. ancient societies all over the world and. I want to sort of show you how we. understand domestication as a process. and we can see where it happened in real. time in real space the sort of evolution.

from a wild plant to a domestic plant. because that counters Graham's idea that. the civilization introduced agriculture. uh it was not an introduction it's. something that happened in a real space. and we'll track how we can see humans. taking control of the reproductive life. cycle of these plants is what I want to. show can I pause you for a second is. that in a particular region like right. now on Earth there are people that are. living in essentially a stone age manner. right I wouldn't call it a stone age. manner okay let's let's say people in. UNC contacted indigenous tribes in the.

Amazon I mean they they essentially are. living with animal skins and bows and. arrows and they're they're living very. similar to the way people lived 10,000. years ago I think there's plenty of. people living today in their traditional. Lifestyles yeah right but then there's. also people that live in Tokyo of course. right so the world is huge so if you. find evidence of Agriculture that dates. back to a specific period where you can. see the wild plants and you can see this. transition into domesticated plants is. it possible that we're dealing with a. region and I think part of the theory.

about the younger G impact theory was. that although it probably devastated the. entire human race it didn't impact all. the places the same way just like the. like right now if a volcano goes off in. Iceland we don't even notice it right. but over there it's devastating yes but. in this case what I'm thinking about is. unlike you know you I I know you guys. have mentioned at times you can't. radiocarbon date stone we can date these. seeds so we can date that transition. from domestic to the oldest seeds that.

you found oh the oldest seeds we have go. back tens of thousands of years the. oldest domesticated crops we have go. back about 11,000 years and where are. those from um from Syria turkey the. Fertile Crescent area yeah is it. possible that there was domestication. before that in other parts of the world. I'm going to show you why that's not. possible yeah that's kind of my goal. there yeah because and it's not even. that it's not even a disproof of an. advanced civilization it's a disproof of. Agriculture period in the Ice Age. there's a lot of of reasons why there.

was no Agriculture and so I want to get. into the dep the Weeds on that let's say. yeah um so just to kind of go off I also. want to explain more penises I know man. what are you doing to us here hey you. got to get the audience somehow penis. pipes is that a pipe yeah they are not. pipe it's a lamp sorry lamp Okay um but. so you know archaeology those are cool I. think archaeology should be open but of. course in the 20th century the mores of. certain Italian museums like here in. Naples they kept this stuff hidden so. did they hide this because of the.

graphic nature of it yeah but it's now. open for the last 20 years if you go to. the museum in Naples they have What's. called the gabinetto cetto and it has. all the erotic art from Pompei and. herculanum and things like that and. archaeologist look we're underfunded. we're not perfect but our goal most of. us is to publish everything open data. and we have at this point Millions upon. millions of archaeological records. available from things like open context. the archaeology data surfice the digital. archaeological record even the. radiocarbon pale iic Europe database so.

when you're talking about the Ice Age we. have radiocarbon dates directly dated. from 13,000 sites in Europe and Siberia. we have quite a bit of evidence of this. ephemeral evidence for hunter gatherers. if you see what I mean and so the the. evidence is just enormous this database. for hunter gatherers and so I I I think. it's important that we deal with the. existing evidence and see where it leads. us if you see what what is the oldest. evidence for hunter gatherers just for. the audience oh God I mean that goes. back you know million years or something.

preh Homo sapiens yeah yeah yeah and but. so but in terms of what we would. consider uh Stone AG man or you know. early Homo Sapien what what is like the. earliest buildings that we know of. what's the earliest tools that we know. of what do we have the earliest tools we. know of are many hundreds of thousands. of years right um before modern similar. to the ones you just showed us yeah well. they're bigger they're probably this. isn't either this is a middle.

Paleolithic style core that my dad made. but the earliest stone tools are quite. large um many of them but as time goes. on they become smaller and smaller. because humans become more efficient at. using this raw material right because. there's only a few different kinds of. stones that you can nap it's what's. called a conoidal fracture I'll pass. some of these around at some point we'll. do a show and tell and I'll show you how. we can tell the difference between kind. of a a man-made Stone tool versus just a. piece of shatter I actually just watched. a documentary on it or a YouTube video I. should say and it was really fascinating.

watching them nap them how they do it. with like a piece of leather on their. leg and they they knock the top of it. it's very interesting you even have some. lovely deer antler that could be used. for that right yeah yeah it's pretty. cool yeah uh okay so continue so you. were saying that um we have a very clear. chain essentially you're saying there's. a clear chain between um what we know of. in terms of like hunter gatherers and. then more modern civilizations it's a. pretty linear line no I don't see it as. a linear line I actually not linear.

that's a bad but that you know at what. point in time it started I should say I. think what we can say is we can. understand start pinpointing the starts. of domestication and things like that. but I think that what this big data set. that we now have shows is there is no. linear trajectory to human culture it's. actually very heterogeneous what happens. it's different in different areas of the. world and therefore we need to. understand the local context to. understand them and that's really what. it's picturing I mean in many ways like. I think Graham TV show is is fun and.

interesting TV but I think it. misrepresents what we think of as the. birth of civilization we don't really. write or teach about that anymore it's. very different in different places even. the very term civilization is something. that everybody has a different. definition for so we almost never use it. I never use the term civilization while. teaching or writing for example it's. just it's a term that you can used to. mean anything and so it's like this this. this Grand Narrative Approach To Human. prehistory is something that's from the.

20th century and not really a component. of 21st century Archaeology is what I. would say got it okay yeah and so I I. just want to end with a couple questions. for Graham if he's willing um in in at. different times he's described That. civilization that he's looking for from. 12,000 years ago it was Advanced to say. our own civilization in the late 18th or. early 19th century and so you know as an. archaeologists we study technology we. study the material remains of the past. and so I I wonder what we're trying to. look for right and so I know that this.

is kind of how the last conversation. with Michael shurmer started and so I. get that but I do want to just quickly. say Graham has has acknowledged that. there's a good chance there's no. Metallurgy for example um with this. civilization he said maybe a decision. was made not to use metals and I'd say. we could definitively prove there was no. large scale Metallurgy in the Ice Age if. you look at ice cores in in the Arctic. right we can track Metallurgy of the. Roman period of medieval periods based. on lead emissions that end up in these.

ice cores and there are no emissions. from Metallurgy in in the Ice Age so we. can be sure that there's no global. metallurgical civilization that's doing. a lot of Mining and smelting certainly. they're not doing burning fossil fuels. like they might be in the 18th or 19th. century so we know that could not have. been around that early because it would. show up in the atmosphere likewise we. can think about shipwrecks right Graham. has mentioned that the bulk of marine. archaeology has focused on shipwrecks. and not the Continental shell. and so the thing is at this point we.

have something like 3 million shipwrecks. from around the world and so one of my. questions for Graham is if this is a. global civilization with ships why is it. that we don't have shipwrecks from this. Global civilization I see this is a big. big problem if we're looking for an a. civilization that's traversing the. oceans we should find these shipwrecks. and similarly these shipwrecks are. located near the coast they're located. on the submerged Continental shelves we. are actually exploring these submerged. Continental shelves in detail were able.

to find scattered ephemeral shipwrecks. but not monuments of some sort of. civilization and the shipwrecks what's. the oldest one that we've found so far. um well there was one that was just. published from about I think it was. about 6 7,000 years ago off the coast of. Italy that I saw um something around. there would say what I'd say is around. the oldest that we have yeah and at what. point in time do you these are mostly. Wooden Boats yeah these are mostly. Wooden Boats yeah at what point in time. would they deteriorate completely well. so actually underwater environments are.

really good for the preservation of. organic remains which is why we actually. get wood in water logged environments. rather than on land for example you. either need to be in a really dry. environment for wood to preserve or a. really wet environment or with those. seeds I was showing it needs to be. charred so in general wood will Decay so. you know in a lot of underwater. environments it'll just preserve as long. as it's in homeostasis which is why that. uh explorers boat that sank uh that hit. whose boat was that you know the boat. I'm talking about famous explorer it's.

this beautiful Wooden Boat that's almost. completely intact at the bottom of the. ocean uh I think it hit an iceburg yeah. and which which explorer was that Jamie. you remember that dude we we there's an. amazing video of it it's amazing like. they're just zooming in on this this. boat and it just looks almost exactly. like it looked when it sank cuz the. water's freezing cold that's it right. there look at that Ernest Shackleton oh. yeah okay it's incredible like the whole. boat just imagine what it have been to. been on that boat back then and I mean.

the preservation underwater is amazing. there's this shipwreck off the coast of. Italy that I just presented uh what was. on the bad boy of science YouTube about. about shipwrecks and stuff and this. still the vine netting that was holding. the the Roman cargo was still preserved. wow and so the just underwater. preservation is just freaky and is it um. would it stay that way for 20,000 years. you think oh yeah oh yeah there's this. idea that things just Decay the older. they are and that's really not true it. depends on the aial environment that. they're in so the tonomy is what.

archaeologists use to study how things. survive and how they are there and so. typically when things are buried they're. very stable or when they're you know. sitting it depends on where you are on. the bottom of the ocean but typically. it's very very stable in fact the worst. place to be is the tidal zone so when. sea level rise is very slow and an area. stuck in that tidal Zone things will get. battered but if things are deeply. deposited quickly or sea level rises. very quick that actually helps preserve. stuff and so that's how we can still.

find these kind of shipwrecks and Ice. Age sites and other sort of settlements. underwater now what about the shifting. of sediment at the bottom of the ocean. when you're dealing with things like 10. 20,000 years ago 30,000 years ago yeah. so that there's actually I was just. talking with uh Jessica cook Hae out of. Bradford about this and actually so. she's done some studies off the coast of. Florida of sort of hurricanes that are. coming in today to CU she's Excavating. Stone AG shell Mounds there and it turns. out actually that the Hurricane's coming. into today really don't disturb them. much at all yeah she's published on that.

so obviously it's it's most mostly. surfix yeah it's going to depend on the. specific environment is the answer so. certain environments it's not going to. preserve others it will yeah it's. variable is the reality of it was it was. there any other questions for Graham. um I just wanted to end by saying look. you know archaeologists we what we find. is what we publish right we are not. trying to keep stuff hidden if I found. Atlantis I would Atlantis CLA Schmidt.

found gocke he published gocke and so I. think that that's really important we. want to change and rewrite history. that's how we make a name for ourselves. every article I have published and most. of my colleagues have published is. something that is adding and changing. our picture of the past we're not locked. in on a specific narrative what we're. trying to do is update the picture of. the past for each other for our. colleagues and for people all around the. world to sort of give a sense of you. know human culture and the diversity of.

it the resilience of it and how we've. survived this long so that we can learn. from it okay. Graham Flyn first of all thank you for. joining me here oh yeah thank you for. having uh it's in a way a historic. occasion uh because as far as I know. this is the first time ever that a. mainstream archaeologist has sat down in. a public forum and debated somebody. who's looking at the past from an.

alternative point of view uh and I'm. grateful to you for sitting in the hot. seat and doing that uh I think it's uh I. think I think it's really uh really. valuable and I I hope the audience will. will find it useful um I'm going to try. and recall a few of your questions the. the L civilization that I'm thinking of. is like a black hole in space to me it's. like something missing in the story of. our past to the extent that I can that I. can. put form on it I think we're looking at.

a civilization like all civilizations. that emerged out of. shamanism um I believe that they did. have rather Advanced. astronomy um and uh a knowledge of the. world um but I don't compare when I. speak of a 19th century level of. Technology I'm talking specifically. about uh knowledge of um longitude the. longitude problem was not solved by our. civilization until the middle of the. 18th century um and uh I'm talking about.

knowledge of very hard to observe. astronomical phenomena such as the. precession of the equinoxes that. knowledge is normally attributed to the. ancient Greeks but uh I think there's. compelling evidence that it's that it's. much much uh earlier than that I'm not. quite sure where to start with my with. my first presentation but um you're. telling us that Archaeology is very keen. on new ideas and wants to really explore. and investigate the past is that right.

that's my perspective yeah that's your. perspective all right let's have a let's. have a look at um at Clovis first now um. tell me what your view on the Clo's. first uh thesis is well when I was an. undergraduate student I was taught that. there were people here before Clovis and. that was over 20 years ago M and that so. that would be what decade that would be. the early 2000s the early 2000 so would. you would you feel that CL the the whole. Clovis first idea Clovis first is the. idea. that excuse me it's a culture that.

archaeologists call the Clovis culture. um the reason that they call it the. Clovis culture is because its artifacts. were first found in a in a place called. Blackwater Draw uh and nearby Blackwater. Draw uh is uh the town of Clovis New. Mexico so archaeologists named this. culture the Clovis culture uh after. after that and it was for a long while. thought to be the first culture the F. the first human presence in the Americas. and the dating that was put on that was. around. 13,400 years ago that this culture.

crossed the bearing Straits which were. then a land bridge as you can see from. this uh this image on the screen they. crossed the bearing Straits they entered. into North America they came. down through often it was argued an ice. ice free Corridor although that's very. debatable uh and then they entered the. main part of the Americas and gradually. made their way further south and and. this was a dominant Paradigm uh until I. would would say the 1990s when it began.

to be seriously questioned uh but I. would I would wonder whether whether the. ghost of Clovis first is still not uh. haunting archaeology so let me let me. just say a few words on on this subject. uh so cross the bearing Straits 13,400. years. ago um and. uh was a single common origin supposedly. that was the idea with Clovis first. um and uh there have been recent genetic.

discoveries showing a very close. relationship between australasian and. certain peoples of the Amazon rainforest. we've talked about this before on your. show Joe and I can go into that in more. in more detail later um a huge amount of. evidence from from South America has a. bearing on this subject this is the the. typical tool set that that the Clovis. people were thought to have used um and. uh despite the fact that um you're.

telling us that Clovis first has been. debunked um since the 1990s really and. you were taught that it was debunked uh. in the 2000s we can find um uh new. Scientists Publishing in this in. 2013 uh questioning the Clovis first. model uh and those who did question the. Clovis first model I mean I mean I I do. love your picture of this free and open. and generous archaeology but actually. archaeologists can be very very very. mean to other archaeologists who.

disagree with them and the example of. this is Jac sank Mars who investigated. blueish caves in the Yukon and found. evidence of of human beings there more. than 20,000 years ago now if that. evidence were correct it would blow the. kovis first model out of the water. people are suddenly in America more than. 7,000 years before Clovis uh the. reaction to that was not welcoming the. reaction to that was uh Fury at Jack. sank Mar's um and here's the Smithsonian. rather than launching a major new search.

for more early evidence the fine stirred. Fierce opposition and a bitter debate. one of the most acrimonious and. unfruitful in all of science notice. noted General nature um and and it was a. brutal experience for Jac Sankar as he. likened it to the Spanish. Inquisition uh audiences paid little. heed to his evidence at academic. conferences they gave short shrift of. the evidence uh then his competence was. questioned when Jack proposed that. Bluefish K was 24 thousand years old it. was not accepted uh says William Josie.

um and uh the fact is that Jack sank. Mars was ruined by the archaeological. reaction to his Discovery his career was. wrecked his research funding was. withdrawn uh he was ignored by. colleagues in the halls of Academia he. was insulted and humiliated it destroyed. his life but he was right and the fact. that he was right was later confirmed uh. it was it was confirmed that uh indeed. uh human beings had been uh at at.

Bluefish Cav and there's the the the. publication from 2017 I think um uh yes. January 2017 confirming that all along. Jac Sankar had been right and that the. ruining and destruction of his. reputation uh for saying something that. other archaeologists disagreed with had. been wholly unnecessary and and again. the Smithsonian the study raises serious. questions about the effect of the bitter. decades long debate over the people of. the new world did archaeologists in the.

mainstream marginalize dissenting voices. on this key issue and if so what was the. impact on North American archaeology did. the intense criticism of pre-clovis. sites produce a chilling effect stifling. new ideas and hobbling the search for. early uh for for for for early sits so. here's Clovis debunked you're telling me. that it was debunked in the '90s Flint. but here's Clovis being debunked again. in 2007 National Geographic uh here's. being debunked in 2012 I mean for a.

theory that was debunked in the 1990s. it's weird to see it still being. debunked in 2012 it's like there's. something still there to debunk isn't. there um and and and uh Wikipedia entry. uh recently the scientific consensus has. changed to acknowledge the presence of. pre-clovis cultures in the America. ending the Clovis first consensus this. was a piece from the 15th of April 2023. my God here's the B big think uh April.

2022 Clovis apparently still needs to be. debunked it's like a zombie it keeps on. haunting archaeology and people keep on. having to debunk it uh and I'd like to. just mention Tom Dill Tom Dill um. discovered the site of excavated the. site of Monte ver in Chile and he found. evidence that human beings had been. there 14,000 maybe as much as 18,000. years years ago uh in the deep south of.

South America uh and again the. archaeology that Flint would like us to. believe exists would have welcomed that. find but no that find was not welcomed. that find was massively attacked. particularly by American archaeologists. um and uh well we now know that. uh uh that um Tom deay has been. Vindicated um and that he was absolutely. correct all along human beings were uh. in Monte Verde thousands of years before.

Clovis um and um the he was eventually. Vindicated now what I want to do if you. don't mind is just play a tiny little. clip from Tom d. himself I don't have audio set up for. you to do. that can you send it to him I just have. the HDMI cable right but if he send it. sends it to you can you do that sure. okay how do I send it to you can you. have a.

Mac we'll pause yeah after a slight. technical hitch okay we're back. uh after a slight technical hitch uh. let's play this clip from Tom dillah uh. who was the um Discoverer and excavator. of Monte. Verde I put together an. interdisciplinary research team of. people got National Geographic funding. and National Science Foundation funding.

um and uh that went pretty well the way. we expected it to and I found that the. scientists were open-minded uh this. includes archaeologist we had Australian. Chilean uh and Argentinian. archaeologists working with this. accumulatively speaking those people. besides myself probably had close to 100. years of experience amongst them um what. surprised me on the other side of the. coin was the stiff uh closed-mindedness. of many North American.

archaeologists but I some of the North. American colleagues um were very. difficult to deal with and I I think at. times presenting a very unhealthy uh. atmosphere uh cutting us off before we. can present the data at meetings uh not. talking with us about it uh refusing to. even look at the data this sort of. thing so. um I think.

I've I think I've got a few minutes left. of my presentation time and I would like. to deal with the issue that Flint has. mentioned of uh archaeology somehow. knowing that there was no Lost. Civilization um if we could call this up. on the screen. Jamie so the society for American. archaeology of which Flint is a member.

uh wrote an open letter to Netflix. shortly after the release of my show. ancient. apocalypse. uh really asking Netflix to cancel the. show not to cancel it this is quite. cleverly put they said don't they said. reclassify it as science fiction now to. my mind what is the result of 30 plus. years of work on my part being. reclassified as s sence fiction is as. good as uh cancelling it Netflix did not.

reclassify it as science fiction but but. archaeology the society for American. archaeology uh says that uh it really. sees uh no evidence uh for uh an. advanced lost A Lost Civilization of the. Ice Age and that uh it's simply my. series is simply uh entertainment with. ideological goals so I want to get into. the the parts of the world that um that. archaeology has not looked at that have.

been it's kind of interesting though. from that statement the just the last. thing contrary to Hancock's claims. archaeology does not willfully ignore. credible evidence nor does it seek to. suppress it in conspiratorial fashion. but we just showed that yeah we just. showed in the case of Tom Dill that his. evidence was suppressed that in the case. of Jack Sankar his evidence was. suppressed that archaeology was not. open-minded about the work of these guys. that they suffered humiliation and uh. great difficulty in in advancing their.

work and furthermore I'd like to make. another Point Clear at this point Flint. I don't think there's an archaeological. conspiracy against. me I'm not so conceited I don't imagine. there's a conspiracy I don't think. archeologists are sitting together in a. cal conspiring against me I think that. Archaeology is locked into a mindset. about the past where my ideas simply. seem Preposterous and I think it's very. annoying to archaeology that those ideas. have some resonance with the with the. public but I absolutely refute any.

suggestion that I have ever said that. Archaeology is involved in a conspiracy. against me or is trying to suppress my. work that is that is not the case um. look there's the Sahara Desert uh Fair. bit of archaeology has been done in the. Sahara desert but we're looking at. 9.2 million square kilometers of the. Sahara Desert tell me how much of the. Sahara you think has actually been. excavated Flint by archaeologist I'd say. a bunch of it has been surveyed. including by my dad Dad no no no how. much has how much has actually been.

excavated what sort of percent well a. lot of sort of desert archaeology does. not have excavation it's eroded away due. to the wind so what what's your. answering to my question how does how. how much does archology really know. about the past of the Sahara well we. understand about the domestication of. pearl Millet in the Sahara from when the. Sahara was a much more much of it was. actually more habitable because it was. not desert so we can see the. domestication of Pearl and sorum no we. can see my question is related to.

specifically to my subject has enough of. the Sahara been excavated for. archaeology to exclude any possibility. that they've missed anything important. in the Sahara we have found thousands of. sites of ephemeral hunter gatherer. remains in the Sahara you're still not. answering my question how much of the. Sahara has archaeology actually looked. at I have no idea but quite a bit Graham. what do you mean by quite a bit what I. mean is that due to remote sensing due. to surface survey and due to. archaeological excavation we actually. have reasonable coverage across the.

Sahara we understand that during green. periods in the Neolithic we can see. agricultural Villages and before the. Neolithic we can find ephemeral hunter. gatherer camps where they were napping. stones but the fact of the matter is. round about 1% of the Sahara has been. excavated uh and 99% hasn't uh so to say. that there's no possibility of any. traces of A Lost Civilization in the. Sahara seems to me a bit premature. particular since during the African. humid period and there were several of.

them the Sahara was green and fertile uh. and was a very attractive environment in. in which to live I I might come on to. the ancient maps issue but there's an. ancient map up there which shows a green. and fertile Sahara and oddly it uh. coincides very much with a radar survey. of the Sahara done in done in 2015. showing River channels in exactly the. places shown in that ancient map I think. the Sahara is a fascinating underserved. area by our achology uh and the plain. fact of the matter is it's very.

expensive to work there it's very. difficult to work there and archaeology. has done very little work in the Sahara. not no work not no work but very little. not enough to write off the possibility. that evidence might be found in the. future you know you're basing this on. our technology now let's look 200 years. in the future look how much archaeology. progressed in the last 50 years 200. years in the future the Technologies. might be so much more advanced there's. so much stuff that is simply not being. looked at and the Sahara is one of those. underserved areas as far as I'm.

concerned so is the Amazon uh 6.7. million square kilm about 5 and a half. still covered by rainforest uh it's. bigger than bigger than India uh and um. well here's an article from nature uh. 95% of the Amazon has simply not been. investigated at all and those bits that. have been investigated uh are minuscule. by comparison yet where investigation is. taking place in the Amazon astonishing. finds are being made uh and these are in.

the Brazilian state of acre Acra uh and. geoglyphs have been found there and I've. recently been with not all. archaeologists um. are as opposed to my work as you and. your colleagues Flint but I've been with. Marty. paronan uh who's a leading archaeologist. studying the Amazon I've been with Al. ranzi who's a geographer from from. Brazil and with Fabio vas philho who's a. liar expert uh this is very recently.

actually um and uh we did some liar work. uh in that area and this is the kind of. this is the kind of thing that's being. found huge. enormous uh Earthworks geoglyphs which. were we to find them in the west we. would recognize them as almost as. henges uh the amount of workmanship that. goes into these Earth Earth Works is. stunning. um and they are very precise very.

geometrical you have squares here you. have a square enclosing a circle um more. of the same uh teino is a gigantic site. these these are just scratching the. surface the the archaeologists who are. working on these sites believe that. there are thousands and thousands more. of these geoglyph sites that they're. just touching there when I was there. with them uh back uh in September 23 I. think it was we actually did a bit of of. lier work we put up a drone with lier. attached and we found new we found new.

geoglyphs geoglyphs that had not been. found before within a mile of geoglyphs. that had been found but still covered by. canopy rainforest and Marty and Aro are. of the view that if we were to really. investigate the whole of the Amazon from. this point of view we would have to. revolutionize our whole view of human. history that archaeology has hardly. touched this incredibly important region. uh and therefore I do not believe that. archaeology can tell us that it can rule. out any possibility of A Lost. Civilization while it has so failed to.

serve the Amazon and is only now. beginning to do so and those who are. doing that work are convinced that. there's much much much more to be found. thousands more of these geoglyphs for. example 27 million square kilometers uh. of the Earth's surface was um above. water during the Ice Age and it's. underwater today so yes there has been. quite a bit of marine archaeology I. think Nick Fleming says there's about. 3,000 sites have been investigated. underwater um over the over the years. but it's again you're looking at a tiny.

fraction of 1% uh of the submerged areas. that have been investigated I was very. excited when I saw this but it turned. out that it was just another search for. shipwrecks um and fortunately some new. work is now being done archaeologists. are beginning to look at the submerged. area doggerland for example between what. is now Britain and and Continental. Europe uh a submerged landmass beginning. to investigate this it wouldn't surprise. me at all if if lots of evidence of.

hunter gatherers is found in these. submerged areas I would expect that to. be the case but to say that enough work. has been done to rule out the. possibility of A Lost Civilization seems. to me absurd when we're dealing with 27. million square kilometers and I just. want to say that I and my wife stha have. done a great deal of diving we did seven. years of scuba diving all over the world. and what we did was we followed up local. accounts of underwater structures. fishermen local divers and we went where. they took us this is nador pipe on the.

island of pipe you go a bit further. underwater and you start finding. structures underwater go a bit further. still and you find this huge column. underwater this is at a depth of 27 M. that column has been submerged for more. than 13,000 years uh and it Compares. very interestingly with this column if. you see on the left the submerged column. at Nadol on the right this column from. tinian the island of tinian uh also in. that region of the Pacific I wonder if. the megaliths of tinian have been.

misdated that what we're looking at here. and I apologize to listeners who are. listening and not watching but what. we're looking at here are my fins. disappearing uh into a tunnel and that. tunnel uh looks to me this is in Japan. by the way of the island of yonaguni. that tunnel looks to me uh very man-made. particularly when I get inside it and. find two on each side two big megaliths. p one on top of the other uh and then. when you come to the end of the tunnel.

you see ahead of you these two massive. megalithic blocks um directly in view. from the tunnel uh that's a shot that. Santa took of me diving beside those. megalithic blocks just to give you a. sense of the scale of them they're. enormous no they did not fall from a. cliff above there is no Cliff above uh. and there's the there in context we're. looking at a huge Rocky outcrop with. these two megalith. blocks on the side but let's go round to. the right of that Rocky outcrop and we.

find a rock area uh with steps and those. steps uh archaeologists tend to argue. this is all completely natural I have. done more than 200 Dives at yonaguni. Santa and I risked Our Lives we are not. Dilan we are in this out of conviction. we're in this out of passion for our. subject we've done more than 200 Dives. at yonaguni I've been Hands-On with this. structure. and all the other structures around it. and I am absolutely confident that we're.

looking at a rock H structure that a. natural rock face that was cut and. shaped by human beings uh here at Kera. we're looking at a stone circle. underwater depth 30 plus meters 32 MERS. I think been submerged again for more. than. 13,000 years um there I'm videoing for. scale you can see somebody down that. beside that Central megalith Flint. do you think Nature Made that I see no.

evidence of it being man-made if that's. what you're saying you you you see no. evidence of that being man-made you see. a central upright you see upright. surrounding it you see the outer curve. the inner curve of the outer megalith. matching the outer curve of the central. me and to you that's that's not even. interesting I mean even the photos you. were showing at yonaguni showed a lot of. natural fractures along straight lines. and so I think that it's really easy to. confuse what can happen naturally and. geologically with something that looks. kind of anthropogenic but this does not. look man-made to me it does not look.

like anything I've ever seen well that's. interesting cuz I took a geologist. diving there wolf witchman um he's very. skeptical he he was skeptical about. yonaguni but he did confess after we. came up from the dive at ker that. there's no way in his opinion that this. could have been made by by Nature this. is a rock wall um of uh. Taiwan uh again s and I went diving. there that's a local diver called Steve. Shia uh he's showing us this rock wall. uh we can get in close to it we can see. a sort of pediment in front of it and if.

you get up close you can see that it is. actually made of individual blocks put. together uh let's go to India southeast. coast of India uh my wife stha was born. in Malaysia but uh she's of Tamil South. Indian origin so we had a great. Advantage uh in South India in talking. to local fishermen and divers because. Santa speaks the Tamil language fluently. uh and we had asked them are there any. structures underwater off here and they. said you bet there are there are there's.

a whole city underwater off here and. we've complained to the government about. it because we keep catching our Nets on. it and fishermen have to go down and. sometimes they die trying to free free. the Nets we'd like the whole thing. cleared away so we said would you would. you take us out there and show us um and. it took some time to put it together. this was an expedition with the. scientific exploration Society in. Britain that I put together as you can. see it's a very low Tech Expedition um. but when we got out there come on Flint. tell me these man-made tell me these are. natural blocks that it's a very blurry. picture gram tell me it's a tell me that.

they're natural blocks tell me I cannot. tell for sure from with these photos. okay there I'm putting my diving knife. between two. blocks and there and then a curved wall. um actually the team from the National. Institute of oceanography in India uh. who were with us were intrigued by this. do you have any more photos of that that. are maybe more convincing uh no that's. that's that's that's that's what I've. got um but uh I'm trying to keep it.

short right some of them do have. characteristics of stone walls for sure. but it's hard to tell that's a that's. the top of a stone wall the rest of it. buried in sand on the left there on the. right a stone wall with a standout. feature above it um to suggest that. these things are are are natural seems. to me uh completely absurd and my point. is that that if Santa and I with no. external funding the only funding we. have I've never had Financial. sponsorship from anybody the only. funding that we have um is uh the kind.

readers who buy my books and allow us to. undertake This research and we've risked. our lives for for 30 years investigating. This research and if we can find. structures of this nature underwater on. a very limited basis then I would. imagine that a detailed archaeological. survey would find much more so the. submerged Continental shelves the Sahara. Desert and the Amazon alone these are. three large served areas by archaeology. and I think it's premature for. archaeology to say that uh they can rule.

out any possibility of A Lost. Civilization while there's so much of. the Earth that remains to be studied and. actually how much of the uh so-called. developed industrial countries how much. of land area of those countries have. been. investigated I mean so look a I fully. agree with you that I'd like to see more. archaeology done in ethical informed. ways I am not trying to argue against. searching for sites in the Sahara bra. the Amazon or underwater um I think we.

can hopefully agree that more. archaeology needs to be done I would say. in developed countries our coverage is. even better though mainly due to the. fact that laws require archaeological. excavation and Survey prior to. construction so whenever there's sort of. construction going on in cities there's. archaeology happening whenever pipelines. or highways or things like that are. being done there's survey and there's. excavation and so I mean at this point. our our our numbers of archaeological. sites are well in the millions right and. billions of artifacts that have been. found and so that we it's not I'm not.

trying to say it's perfect though and at. the same time the kind of excavations. that happen sort of on a rescue basis. before construction they're not going to. have the same kind of investment that a. an academic uh project will have on the. other hand an academic Project's going. to make a much smaller hole you know. because we are focusing on maximizing. the evidence that we can get and so you. know nobody in no way am I trying to say. that archae has perfect coverage but we. do have quite a bit of coverage that.

people are unfamiliar with and we do. have quite a bit of coverage of this. late Ice Age period where we have many. many thousands of sites from ephemeral. hunter gatherers underwater above above. water and elsewhere as we do above water. yeah would you mind showing Yan aoni. again because th those other images. aren't nearly as compelling to me as uh. some of the right angles and what looks. like passageways and that. curved surface underground sure that to.

me that's a wild one see the other stuff. I'm like things look weird in nature. sometimes and I'm not an expert and so I. look at that I'm like that's blurry it's. green it's odd yeah it's odd maybe if. you were there physically you would have. a different impression of it maybe it. would look more like a stone wall but. Yan gooni To Me blows me away the this. blows me away but the other image blows. me away of the the curved front of that. feature and what looks like steps to the. right of it so there's that tunnel. that's crazy too that's crazy too.

because the the Lines line up it looks. like two blocks were cut and placed on. each side and there seems like a very. clear passageway in between them. especially since at the end of the. passage where you're confronted by this. this is what you look at these are crazy. like if these are natural formations. they are so bizarre that you have. enormous straight lines and right angles. that look like they're cut and not just. straight on one side straight on all. sides you might go yeah so look at this.

slide you can see even to the right of. those two blocks that the what Graham is. calling blocks you can see these sort of. straight angles that are made you can. see another a vertical one to the left. of them as well so how do you think they. were placed in that manner well I don't. know if they were placed I think so you. think it's possible that they just broke. off at some point in history and landed. like that I think again this is. compelling to me but not as compelling. as the other one show me the other one. with the the front curved surface this. notice. this looks crazy like this the whole. thing looks crazy the steps look crazy.

the the the fact that it's all this one. uniform Flatline switch to my computer. to show you these yeah some of these. look. bizarre nature sometimes looks bizarre. though I mean you know I I if if I'm I'm. assuming that people have investigated. this like geologists and stuff from what. I Professor masaki Kimura um has. investigated it and he's published. extensively on it and he's AB he's a. geologist he's Absol absolutely. convinced that yonaguni has been worked. extensively by human hands and hav't.

other geologist like Robert shock. suggested that it's not yeah I took. Robert there um his initial impression. was that it was uh that it was man-made. later he changed his view that's fine he. did three Dives there but I mean I don't. know I've seen a lot of crazy natural. stuff and I see nothing here that to me. reminds me of human architecture and. I've seen human architecture all over. the world Jamie go to that one that we. were just looking at with graham it's a. lower right like the main image to the. right hand side yeah the next one that. one that one.

yeah it's certainly crazy I'll give you. that yeah it's you know I'm not going to. deny that impressive how flat that. surface is very bizarre and how it juts. off and it's flat below it in a uniform. line the curved surface of the front of. it is very bizarre too that the other. image that you had Graham but Stone. often times fractures in straight ways. you know that's how it fractures. naturally yeah I get get it I get it. it's just the the appearance of those.

stones stacked in a uniform manner in. that tunnel all these things and that. this. exists somewhere else it's very. similar these might be renderings of. what they think it looks like I suppose. I mean regardless we still have no dates. from this we have no artifacts we do. have dates from the submergence uh. you're looking at Material that's that's. more than 12,000 years old. this was a this was a a tough dive uh.

massive currents there this is ker um of. akajima um in the okanawa group of. islands uh to me Flint it's stunning. that you that you see that as a totally. natural thing but I guess we've just got. very different eyes um the central. upright surrounded by upright megalist. all cut out of the Bedrock very similar. to the uh the chamber recently excavated. at karane uh where you have uprights cut. out of the Bedrock as well uh it seems.

to me uh inconceivable that nature could. have made this that nature could have. separated out this Central upright and. then created the upright surrounding it. in such a perfect way um but it's not. totally perfect right like look at the. back the back is much larger there's a. piece on the side that seems like it's. cut out and then there's a piece in. front that seems like it's cut out but. even the one to the lower left is not. it's not cut the same it's odd that you. have that passageway when you're looking. down and it's sort of uniform on all. sides around the monolith that's pretty.

fascinating it's. interesting my point my point is not. nearly enough work has been done by. archaeology and how long ago was. supposedly was this above ground about. 13,000 years ago somewhere of that order. somewhere of that order um that was the. last time it could have been done above. ground otherwise nature if Flint. believes so has done it but uh I'm. pretty confident we're looking what is. the most compelling evidence you've seen. in an underwater site that of man-made.

construction or moving of stones I. repeat this is ker uh I am not showing. I'm only showing a fraction of the. slides that we have from yonaguni. yonaguni isn't simply that Terrace it's. a whole series of monuments which which. continue over a distance of a couple of. Miles. underwater um there's a huge Stone Face. carved out of the Rock uh there's a. passageway uh down at the bottom of. yonaguni there's rocks have been cleared.

to the side away from the passageway um. it's the combination it's the. combination of all of these different. things across an area of two miles off. the island of yonaguni uh that make that. one of my high priority sites for for. man-made workmanship and the Indian. sites are also extremely intriguing and. unfortunately none of that work has been. has been followed up uh which is a Pity. uh and and when we come to what you call.

rescue archaeology FR Fint if we come. back to Northern Europe for example I. mean the last place on Earth that I. would look for the remains of A Lost. Civilization is Northern Europe because. northern Europe was a frozen Wilderness. during the Ice Age and any any Lost. Civilization worth its salt uh would not. have focused a lot of effort on Northern. Europe in that time the place to look is. down near the tropics it's down near the. equator it's places that weren't uh. horrifically cold and and unbearable uh.

during the during the Ice Age and when. you talk about rescue archaeology this. is one of the problems I have is that. there is no targeted search for the. possibility of A Lost Civilization. because archaeology has already. convinced that no such thing could have. existed so what we get is accidental. Discovery somebody's building a road or. building a dam they call in the. archaeologists to see if there's any. archaeology that's going to be disrupted. and some Archaeology is found some times. that's how the serti Mastadon site in um. in near San Diego was was discovered.

because Road Works were being done there. um but this is not a targeted search for. A Lost Civilization this is accidental. Discovery I would maintain that in the. Amazon rainforest in the Sahara desert. in the 27 million square kilometers of. Continental shelves uh massively. underserved by archaeology and in other. areas of the world archaeology's focus. is on very limited parts of those not on. massive parts of them and then I'm sure. you know this Flint that that when we. come to most archaeological sites the.

amount of the site that is excavated is. rarely more than 5% and often and often. less than that and that's for good. motives to preserve the site for future. generations of archaeologist to. investigate but again it it it doesn't I. think allow archaeologist to lay such. claim to the past that they can. absolutely rule out any possibility of A. Lost Civilization okay Flint yeah I mean. so if if you want to Jamie do you want. to look up the site Pavo Petri p a v l o.

p t r i this is a site in the aan and. this is an example of kind of what uh I. mean I can boot it up on my computer. if so if you look at this you have very. clear Stone courses for example. underwater and it's not just sort of. stone courses and walls that we find. this is from a few thousand years ago. what we find actually are a ton of. artifacts with it right they they. excavate they pull Up Ceramics they pull. up stone tools and they they they are.

able to therefore show that this was an. occupied place this is obviously not due. to sea level rise this is due to. tectonic activity that this is now. underwater helay off the North Coast of. Greece also is another one that people. have suggested might have inspired. Plato's Atlantis because it happened. during Plato's lifetime that that city. was submerged underwater and so we. actually do find you know from more. recent times actual underwater sites um. a plenty and Pavo Petri uh what year was. that uh I I think it's from about 3,000.

oh 3,000 years ago or so so like 1,000. BC is I I could be off back are you. saying those are natural blocks at Pavo. Petri no I'm saying you can say see. clear Stone courses that looks exactly. like the type of architecture we have. above ground and so the same kind of. stone courses what you have from the. historic period no huh you would expect. that from the historic period yeah we. would and so I would expect though if. you're going to make an argument for. something like Yon. that it would look like architecture. maybe even the type of architecture that. you have looks like megalithic.

architecture to me looks like rocku. architecture it looks like the rocku. areas at Sak Haman for example Jamie. actually pulled up we see many different. blocks at Sak Haman we see multiple. courses of blocks stack have you been. there no I've never been there gr so how. can you possibly talk about because I've. seen photos of it well I've been there. dozens of. times I was there I was there just a few. weeks ago second okay but let's let's. look at the. let let's look at the images because. saki Haman is a very complicated site. yes there are huge blocks in the zigzag.

walls at Saki Haman but there are also. huge Rock Cut areas with steps in them I. don't understand how being there lets. you talk about it better than me you've. been there as a tourist to see how. archaeologists have conserved it and. preserved it and presented it for people. coming by that is not the same thing as. Excavating a site that is not the same. thing with understanding archaeological. literature tell me that I've not been. there so I cannot talk about that you're. ignorant of the site Flint you're. ignorant of the site because you don't. know what the site looks like you don't. know huge areas that are cut out of.

solid rock you just talk about blocks. there more B here and let's like look at. it and discuss let do that let's look at. it how do you how do you spell that. sakan s a s a y h u a m a n okay got. it now that's the blocky walls that. you've been talking about yeah and that. doesn't look anything like Yuni but they. confront another area you were showing. us some pictures of it earlier.

Jamie uh a whole Rock hun. Hillside I don't know none of that looks. like Yoni this looks like actual. architecture yeah it is actual. architecture yeah I agree yeah but this. is not the picture that I would like to. see do you want to find it Graham and. put it up through. HDMI cuz Jamie obviously I know what he. was asking for but. across it though I wasn't it wasn't. there on purpose or anything it was. probably in here somewhere and like how.

I got there I I was clicking around so H. let's see if we can get. uh and I mean you know part of the goal. though is to also have a date so you. know like some of that stuff that you. showed off the coast of in this in this. that one there okay there's lots of this. in Sak manr as you would know if you'd. been. there this still does not look anything. like Yoni to me it doesn't look like a. series of steps cut out of Rock I mean. it looks like a series of steps yeah but. it doesn't look like it actually looks. like a a room there even is what I see.

on the left for example to me it looks. similar but not similar in that whole. room area in the left hand side that I. don't think anybody could look at that. and never argue that that wasn't made by. humans I think that's so clear whereas. if you look at go back but I also don't. know if this is Sak H this is on quora. right yeah I don't know what it is let's. go look and see what it's a photo by. Santa Fe so it is okay your wife so the.

the the difference to me is like there's. some like instances like in between the. steps where you look at that flat. surface and and the the uniform line. across the flat surface that does look. similar to janoni um some of the stuff. on the right looks much more refined. than what you see in yonaguni but that. also could be attributed to the. underwater erosion right in thousands. and thousands of years whereas how old. is Sakai Haman supposed to be. well that's an ongoing argument yo well. Pedro Sia de Leon mentioned it was only.

Built 100 years before he was there the. difference between in my mind saki waman. shows all those other things that are so. clearly architecture so clearly stone. blocks fitted and piled onto each other. you don't quite see that level of. sophistication at the yonaguni site but. you do see some stuff that's very. bizarre it doesn't look like it's. natural and I suggest if we were to look. further and spend the money investigate. thoroughly we would find a lot more I'm. I'm simply raising this to address.

Flint's apparent point that uh. archaeology has done enough already to. rule out the possibility of A Lost. Civilization that's certainly what's. said in the saa's letter to Netflix and. Flyn what is your position on that is. specifically what he's talking about. South America that South America would. be a place where an advanced. civilization would Thrive because it. wouldn't during the Ice Age time because. it wouldn't be experiencing the brutal. cold that northern Europe had no but I. still think we'd want to find some sort. of evidence of things like agriculture. right and so we can look at the.

development of agriculture in South. America and in meso America I have. slides on that and we can see that it. actually we can see the transition from. Wild to domestic in real space and time. in which areas though so in meso America. we can see it with tein further south in. in the northern part of South America we. can see it with a variety of different. crops and these are all areas that are. outside of the rainforest no some of. them are at the edges of the rainforest. yeah the edges and so I mean look we've. done a lot of work in the rainforest. with liar in particular and that's been. dated based on excavations Stefan. rostain just published in 2024 a series.

of of liar structures that were all. connected with one another alongside. major roads and based on excavations of. several of them it dates to about 2500. years ago and so this is the key thing. is we want to understand clear dates for. stuff and that is the key thing we have. plentiful evidence do you mind if I show. you some of our Ice Age evidence that we. have it resetting I think the HDMI. resets when you're shutting the computer. computer did I shut my computer yeah. sorry is it should I unplug it then yeah.

yeah. okay technology man I know sorry I have. a cheap computer I need to I I work for. a public university and have a small. Grant I don't think it's the computer's. problem um I think it's all it's all. good um let me pull up my actual one so. let's look at some of the Ice Age stuff. that we can look exactly where Graham. says we're not looking and I want to. show you what we do have no no I say. you're not looking enough okay but I. want to show you what we find when we do. look cuz I completely agree Graham I. actually hope that people who are.

interested in more archaeology happening. donate to things like the archaeological. Institute of America the European. Association of archaeologists and the. society for American archaeologists that. can help fund more surveys and ex if. somebody wanted to do that where would. they go uh to their websites saa.org. archaeological. org I think it's archaeological dorg um. can I give you guys the links to put at. the on the YouTube and stuff like that. uh sure yeah so archaeological dorg for.

the archaeological Institute of America. and I'll give you guys the links for. that so you can show that I just wanted. to get it out there while it's still in. people's minds listening to this look it. up archaeological Institute of America. Society for American archaeology and. European Association for archaeologists. okay they are great institutions that. support stuff I just want to dedicate. this quick thing to my dad he was an IC. archaeologist he innovated how to do. mapping and how to look at Stone tools. and please blame him for any of my. mistakes any of his colleagues that are. listening um so I want to talk about one.

of his surveys that he actually did in. the upper deserts of Egypt above abidos. abidos is famous because that's where. the pre-dynastic. uh Dynasty came from uh in Egypt but up. in the upper areas him with debel shvy. and Shannon mcfarren they went and they. surveyed 2100 different places where. based on sort of the geology of the. areas they thought there was a decent. chance that people might have been there. in the past because of uh it being. not a desert environment but more of a. savannah more green and because of.

erosion there might be stuff visible. right so they targeted these areas and. they found what nearly 200 different. sites all dating to the Ice Age dense. scatters some of them dense not all of. them were dense like this one on the. right of lithics of stone tools that. showed people working in place and they. mapped them out in the desert they have. 36,000 different artifacts that they. found in this survey um and in many. places they could actually refit these. back together so they could understand. that people were doing this right here.

in this spot and so you know one of the. great things about desert survey is. because of all the wind erosion we. actually should have exposed more. architecture more artifacts and because. it's so dry things like organic material. preserve sometimes as well and so we. actually have this picture of stuff. that's different than say you know in a. more temperate zone um but if we start. looking at um underwater sites I talked. with Dr Jessica Cale who's now at the. University of Bradford who has done um.

underwater Dives and found Ice Age sites. um off the coast of Florida so this is. in the Gulf of Mexico Jamie oh I have to. give this to you sorry I have a video. here for you you could add Dr it no I. don't just give the flash have a for. yeah he's got a I'm low Tech Graham well. it's just Windows yeah I know I know um. isn't that a part of a big lawsuit right. now. and so one of the things that she does. is she is an underwater archaeologist. who focuses on the Stone Age and this.

period that we're talking about at the. end of the Ice Age and what we're. looking at here she'll talk about it. it's just a short one minute clip is. this sites underwater they all date to. the end of the Ice Age and so they're. lithic scatters just like my dad found. in the Sahara Desert of hunter gatherers. under underwater sites though and so. let's see what some of these look like. can I ask you something how do they go. about choosing these areas to search um. yeah she's GNA explain that um so what. she does is she develops predictive. models based on the geomorphology this.

is her F actually her colleague finding. some stone tools so they they look at. the underwater geomorphology they take. known sites above water and then they. predict where they might be able to go. and successfully find material and then. they go dive and often enough they do. find that material and they're able to. find here we go yeah has some of the. densest terminal Pine and early holine. occup. in the American Southeast or definitely. in Florida we don't just do random Dives. we go back from the known to the unknown.

we look at terrestrial patterns we look. at cultural types so periods where. people were using shellfish as a. subsistance base it's really important. to look at those sites on land and say. what are the factors what environmental. patterns or cultural patterns can we. tease out of these larger distributions. and then we project it offshore and if. we're fortunate then after we pull all. those threads together this is what we. get and so yeah this is just like with. my dad when he targeted areas in the. Sahara the now she's at University of.

Bradford and they're doing Dives in in. different areas of Europe and they're. specifically targeting this kind of. stone aged material from this period and. they're able to successfully find it and. so I I think that that's important to. understand because this material is. there to find even though it's very much. ephemeral material from hunter gatherer. camps and this is often times outc crops. of stone for making these kind of stone. tools so that's what they're actually. finding is where making it looking at. the geomorphology to find them and so if. we Sorry let's get past this um we.

already talked about this wall but I. also wanted to brought up other kinds of. underwater finds that have been found. from the stone AG Coster cave it's a. Painted Cave it's 115 ft underwater off. the coast of Marseilles found recently. in 1985 by enry Kos and it's dated to. 27,000 and 19,000 years ago and dated by. radiocarbon it's actually the Painted. Cave with the most radiocarbon dates. from it right and this is what we have. we have panels of black horses we have. it's one of the only um painted caves. with sea creatures for example these aux.

I think there's this uh some stuff that. they describe as jellyfish there's a. black Stag and so we actually are. looking underwater and successfully. finding this kind of material but it's. not just underwater because I don't. think we need to stop there if we look. at this culture in Europe at the end of. the Ice Age this magdalenian culture. that's associated with most of these. painted caves from about 177,000 to. 12,000 years ago the exact period that. Graham civilization should date to we.

have radiocarbon dates from a large. number of these caves very clearly. locked in in time and what do we see. they're actually even with sea level. rise they're only a couple miles from. the Ice Age Coast so these are very very. close there's not room for some sort of. Empire there or civilization I claim no. Empire okay that's fine that's just. another way you misrepresent my work. okay I'm sorry for misrepresenting your. work work Ram but there's no room for. some sort of large agricultural.

civilization along most of these coasts. because the way sea level rise has. worked is it's variable in different. places and so we actually have a whole. lot of coverage near to Ice Age Coast. from the end of the Ice Age not the. glacial maximum can you explain those. lines yeah so these are lines based on. at 100 m and 120 M of sea level rise. which is about the amount that exists. from the younger dras there's more from. the glacial maximum but that's 20,000. years ago we're talking about 12,000.

years ago at the end of the Ice Age and. so they're only these all these caves on. the north of Spain are only a few miles. away from that Ice Age Coastline so just. you know short walking distance right so. anything that had been submerged would. have to be within those boundaries yeah. exactly and there's only a few miles. there it's not like a huge untapped uh. landscape to look at if you see what I. mean not the Bay of bisque not in the. Bay of bisque not in many places take. the Sunder shelf for example okay.

enormous amount of submerged material. there I'm not disputing that that we're. going to find that we're going to find. hunter gatherer sites underwater I'm. simply saying and you seem to keep. evading this issue that not enough has. been done to rule out the possibility of. A Lost Civilization there were hunter. gatherers all over the world during the. Ice Age and of course we're going to. find hunter gatherer sites underwater. but to say that we've done enough. underwater archaeology to rule out the. possibility that something very.

surprising might be found underwater to. me is actually dishonest there's just. not enough been done there's not enough. been done in the Sahara there's not. enough been done in the Amazon and. there's not been done enough on those 27. million square kilometers of submerged. Continental shelves the whole area. between uh the Malaysian Peninsula the. Indonesian Islands out over to New. Guinea and Australia the the submerged. Sunder shelf and the and and the the the. sahul area to me is absolutely.

fascinating and not enough underwater. archaeology has been done there to rule. out the possibility I'm not saying that. we're not going to find hunter gatherer. sites of course we are but I'm saying. that for archaeology to claim uh and to. quite viciously and unpleasantly attack. me for suggesting the possibility that. there might be a Lost Civilization to. make that claim while having failed thus. far to in investigate thoroughly the. vast areas of the submerged Continental.

shelves the vast areas of the Amazon. rainforest the vast areas of the Sahara. Desert that have not been investigated. that claim is premature and that claim. is disingenuous but we have thousands of. sites from these are care give me a. second underwater sites that have been. found Graham working with Archaeology is. working from the known and what we. actually have towards the unknown and. when you say that we're not. investigating these areas I'm showing. you that we have we have evidence from. you okay so let me explain and shes I'm. not misrepresenting you of course you've. you've surveyed some of those areas yes.

we've surveyed quite a bit of them and. quite a bit of them are onl what do you. mean by quite a bit how much of the. submerged Continental shells I'm going. to keep showing you areas that we have. evidence for why do we have so much. evidence for ephemeral hunter gatherers. but not evidence from an advanced. civilization that is global that should. leave behind monuments that are far. easier to find instead what we get are. plentiful sites outside and in caves. that show Coastal interactions we have. evidence of these hunter gatherers. interacting with the coastlines they're.

collecting shellfish and fish they're. turning them into beads they turn. whalebones into into points to hunt with. into other kinds of artifacts and these. whalebones and these shells don't just. end up on those Coastal sites they end. up further Inland as well so we can see. all over the world this kind of coastal. interaction and it's not just areas like. that so for example sea level rise is. not even everywhere just off the on the. southern coast of cre I've been here Dr. Tom ster has showed me around this site.

very thankfully I'm very much in debt to. him this is an area where the African. tectonic plate is moving under the. European tectonic plate and so the land. is rising faster than the sea level has. risen and so Tom specifically targeted. it for a survey he found dozens of sites. and then he excavated several of them. what this is is this is an uplifted sea. cave it's a cave that was formed from. wave action you know know before the Ice. Age and then with tectonic uplift it. raised up many many many meters above.

the current sea level and what did he. find he found a stone age hunter. gatherer Camp he excavated it he found. obsidian he found other kinds of lithic. tools he found animal bones and he dated. it to right at the end of the Ice Age. right none of that surprising to me okay. find this stuff so easily how much of. the submerged Continental shelves have. actually been investigated by. Archaeology is it more matter it does. matter no it 27 million square km the. size of Europe and China added together. and you've investigated less than 5% of.

it that doesn't matter the fact that we. found thousands of these hunter gatherer. sites does not matter it does matter of. course you're going to find them that's. that's that's what I expect to find in. in in the world both things can be true. both can be true or we can go to North. America where we have 12,000 different. sites I think it is with Clovis points. and we can see where these coastlines. are on the Eastern seaboard yes there's. a large amount of submerged Co. continental shelf including the area in. Florida where we saw Jessica Cale dived.

and found sites if you look at the. Western Seaboard on the other hand there. is not nearly as much of a submerged. continental shelf and what's really. interesting about the Western Seaboard. is not only have we been exploring it. for 40 plus years and we have multiple. sites dating to this period at the end. of the ice AG sometimes with wood and. cording other times with stone tools all. of them hunter gatherers one second. Graham sure and so you mentioned this. Clovis first hypothesis right it's been. decades you you bring up uh news.

articles and headlines that say that. it's still being debunked that's not. what Archaeology is our articles. ourselves don't say that our articles. instead present new hypotheses like the. kelp Highway hypothesis because Scholars. do not write the headlines for media. articles I cannot help how journalists. portray what we do okay and so what. we're looking at is this new migration. pathway the kelp Highway hypothesis done. by John erinson and others and what we. can do is we can specifically target. areas that are above water so what's.

happening along the Pacific coast North. in Canada is the glacier is melting and. that causes sea level rise but the. weight of the glacier pushes down the. land so as it melts there's less weight. on the land and it's called isostatic. rebound so there's a whole chunk of the. Pacific coast on on uh sorry along. Canada where it's above land right now. for us to excavate and people have been. targeting that out of the University of. Victoria for example Duncan Mclaren has. found Footprints right there on what is.

an end of the Ice Age Coast from about. 15,000 years ago these are footprints in. beach sand from three different people. from this analysis and so we can get. these ephemeral traces of hunter. gatherers moving into the Americas at. this time maybe some of them had lived. there for a few thousand years and we. can Target these areas that are above. land that were ice a Coast using our. knowledge of geology that is what we do. it's not that we're necessarily looking. for one thing or Another We're targeting.

areas that are exposed that we can. understand Coastal interactions at this. early time and whatever we find whether. it's Footprints or something else we. work to publish it and then we put. together clear dates of the stratigraphy. in order to get it at high resolution. when these people were walking on this. Coastline on this beach if you see what. I mean these three different people. right here but what how did you feel. when you Tom dillane is that Tom Tom D.

was the excavator mon how did you feel. when he was describing what was. ultimately true but was being dismissed. and he was being shut off and people. weren't willing to look at the data how. do you feel as an archaeologist oh I. think that that's complete I don't mean. that what Graham saying is [ __ ] I. think it's complete [ __ ] for any. colleagues of mine that try to shoot. down actual evidence that is ridiculous. I'm not trying to say that all of archa. Archaeology is like any community of. people there includes some [ __ ] I.

have worked with some [ __ ] before. right and so I I would say though that. to represent that as all of Archaeology. is kind of silly because most. archaeologists don't focus on the. peopling of America me I do ancient. Greek research when people arrive in. America does not impact the research I. do for example all my Greek colleagues. all people that do Chinese archaeology. people do archaeology of Australia none. of those people really have a horse in. the game for theing of Americas and so.

if there were a few [ __ ]. archaeologists well then I condemn them. I think that is a a problem you know and. I think that there are just like in any. community of people whether it's. politicians entertainers or in your. neighborhood there's [ __ ] we should. say that that's the wrong way to be and. if those people are [ __ ] I think. that's a problem FN you were showing us. a picture of Florida recently the the. submerged continental shelf around. Florida mhm let's go back to that sure. that's why I interrupted you um and. apologies for for doing that you're fine.

now we're looking at the Florida. Peninsula and just to the right of that. we're looking at a large uh Island that. was above water during the Ice Age uh. it's in the light shaded green area the. dark shaded bit is the island called. Andros um but uh what we're looking at. is the Bahama banks that were above. water during the Ice Age so this might. be a good opportunity to get into the. controversial issue of bimy uh which is.

one of the many issues that I featured. in ancient apocalypse and that I've been. uh attacked for do you mind if I. actually finish my PowerPoint first or. oh go ahead yeah. sorry no you're fine we we'll go back to. bimin yeah we can get to bimin in a. second I do want to point out that right. in downtown Miami right here is a. archaeological site called Cutler Ridge. which also dates to the end of the Ice. Age it has shells it has lithics it has. even I think human remains and it shows. that kind of coastal interaction not too.

far from the ice Coast it's just a few. miles away um sorry let me you have. images from that no I don't think I do. I'm sorry no wores we could Google it if. we want but I do want to just sort of. end this little thing by saying that we. have Coastal Ice Age archaeology from. around the world from Africa from Asia. from Australia from the Americas. everywhere you look there are Ice Age. Coastal sites for example this set of. beads from a burial of a child from La. medalen these are Marine beads found.

Inland they were embroidered into the. into the clothes that this child was. buried in right it's about a. seven-year-old uh little child buried. there and so you get these kind of. pictures of the past of the people that. lived in this sort of tough terrain and. exploited the coasts all over the world. and so I just want to really emphasize. underwater archaeology we find things. for example like a sea wall off the. coast of Israel trying to combat the. coast level rise that was happening in. the Stone Age right we have lithic. artifacts on submerged archaeological.

sites all over the world from different. periods and so we really are looking for. this now we're not just finding. shipwrecks and we are finding plentiful. Stone Age stuff hunter gatherer sites. and it just sort of it strikes me as. unbelievable that we have so many. thousands of sites that that show. Coastal interactions at the end of the. Ice Age from these hunter gatherers but. we have no evidence of a lost Advanced. civilization that strikes me as maybe.

this doesn't disprove it but it makes it. very very hard to swallow if you see. what I mean because nobody really. understands how much archaeology we have. we have a lot these days it is a study. of Big Data it's not a study of just. going to one site after another it's. about aggregating this to understand how. people were living at the past and. sometimes zooming in to get pictures of. individual people and how they survived. uh to draw I have to really repeat. myself here yeah I can go back up there. we're we're we're looking at um less.

than 5% of the Continental shelves that. have been studied At All by archaeology. I'm not surprised that we find hunter. gatherer traces underwater I'm very glad. that we do I would be very surprised if. we didn't but what I'm saying is that. not enough of that 27 million square. kilometers has been investigated only a. tiny fraction has been investigated and. that fraction is not enough to draw the. conclusion that we can absolutely say. there was no Lost Civilization same goes. for the Amazon rainforest same goes for. the Sahara desert but can we say there's.

no evidence for an advanced civilization. in what they have studied in what they. have studied yes we can say there's no. evidence for an advanced civilization. but that's that brings us to another. issue of what is studied and what is not. studied by archaeology uh which which we. can get into but and we will get into. but I would like to go back to uh. Flint's um inundation map of uh yeah. yeah. it's here um and uh we.

um just beneath the compass rows there. uh you can can we highlight that somehow. down yeah that that the the submerged. baham Banks the Grand Bahama Banks. you're on them now that was a big island. above water during the Ice Age and it. actually stayed above water until about. 6,900 years ago so let's just talk. because I know bimin has been a very. contr verial issue I don't know if it's. a controversial issue for you but. certainly for a large number of your. colleagues the suggestion that the.

so-called bimin road is a man-made um. artifact has been uh mocked and laughed. at a great deal I'm not sure if mocked. is right but I've definitely heard it's. a geological sand beach it's the beach. sand we see it are you familiar with the. um with the. uh General work that's been done at. bimin I am not a geologist. um so I'll go with no uh okay but I've. heard from other geologists that it is.

definitely not man-made okay well what I. want can I can I put my um can I put my. HDMI H HDMI got so many different pairs. of glasses here it's really crazy. um B many inundation Maps yes I just. want to say I worked with Dr Glenn mil. uh who's a leading geologist studying. Marine um. archaeology um this is the PIR Reese. map uh and change my glasses yet again.

I'll tell you old age is a [ __ ] um so. it's this map that I'm interested in. it's this large island and the. possibility that that large island uh. was depicted on as it looked during the. last ice age that it is the submerged. Bahama Banks and that running up the. middle of it is a depiction of the. so-called bimin Road um now I'm showing. as it looks today top left uh where the.

bimin islands are and the island of. Andros uh if you go back 4,800 years. bottom left uh you can see that the the. Grand Bahama Banks were submerged but up. until 6,900 years ago they were above. water um and uh 12,400 years ago they. were above water and I must say that. looks very much to me like the island. that's depicted on the PIR ree map uh. this is Glenn mil he worked with me on.

the inundation maps for my 2002 book. underworld uh I think you have to agree. that he's a very major expert in the. field uh and um these um in whoops these. inundation Maps uh that he has that he. has given us are a very accurate. representation and those original Maps. the ancient ones how old are they uh. that's the 153 per Reese map uh which. was based on more than 20 older Source. Maps uh as he tells us on his own.

handwriting we only have a fragment of. the map it's full of inaccuracies and. problems um but I'm just you know what. would convince me what so I used to do a. lot of Gis for archaeological projects. where i' take historical maps and I try. to line them up with actual terrain like. satellite imagery and stuff like that. you should work on geore rectifying. these maps to see how they line up in. real space CU right now what I see I. have to squint to see if it looks right. or not and so I think working with. something like a GIS expert to Geor. Rectify this stuff and show how actually.

accurate it would be where you could. actually statistically measure that. would make it a lot more convincing in. my mind no that's a that's a very good. idea Flint thank you um can we see. images of the bimy road itself I'll I'll. show you a couple of slides. um if I can put this. up ah come on. and uh that's me diving on the bimy. road.

um and so these are arranged in what. fashion I see just small segments of it. no there's a there's a huge extensive. area runs for about more than more than. half a mile uh right off the coast of of. bimy of these of these blocks now what I. want to get to here is um the suggestion. that this is totally. a natural site are are you you're not. familiar at all with the work that's. been done on this Flint it's not my.

expertise no yeah um because if you read. the literature you'll find that um uh. archaeologists constantly refer to a. work that was done um by Eugene. Shin um and uh a couple of other. geologists arguing that a the Moon Road. is totally natural uh and B that is. pretty young it's only it's only 3,000. years old or so um but this is an area. where where there's a real a real.

problem uh because in the literature on. that archaeologists cite the 1980 and. later work of Eugene Shin uh which. itself cites his 1978 article uh but. very 1978 article is very hard to find. uh I had to do a lot of work to get hold. of it and I did and actually the 1978. article contradicts almost everything. that's said in the 1980 and later and. later articles um the whole Authority uh.

for um are there any artifacts from the. Bim Road uh there I regard because I've. excavated Road surfaces and I found lot. as an artifact but let me just play you. again J Jamie I guess I'll have to. airdrop this to you let me just play you. a little clip from Eugene Shin uh upon. whose authority uh the bimy road is. being dismissed as uh as um totally. natural and very recent could we could. we air drop this. jery and then I'd like to show you what.

a road surface looks like under. excavation. afterwards from a project I work on in. Romania so this is the guy who whose. work on bimin is used by archaeology to. dismiss it as a totally natural and B. totally recent so we would hope that he. would be um an honest person that he. wouldn't um disguise his own findings. from an earlier period of Time how do I. play it I play it oh you play it okay um.

and this is just a little clip from. Eugene Shin yeah I well I I remember. when I first met you I was a young grad. with speed braz and I remember running. into you and you were carving this Stone. statue and somebody asked you what you. were doing with it and you said you were. taking it over to the bab going throw it. overboard and hoping that these she. would. find so I don't know if we followed up. on that well someone told me they saw it. in a magazine somewhere but I I kept.

waiting for you know something really. Happ really. happen the uh the guy who's planting. artifacts on the bimin road uh is the. main Authority that is used to dismiss. the bimin road as a man-made as a. man-made structure did he actually do. that or was he just joking around about. not clear I think joking about it would. be in very bad taste as well um and. especially referring to the Sheep uh who. think that it uh that it might be uh. actually well it's certainly not a. scientific approach it's not it's to my.

mind it's not a scientific Approach at. all I think this is the moment where I'm. going to do my sort of second major. presentation you might if I quickly show. some images of a road surface very happy. for you to do sure Jamie do you mind. showing the. HDMI I'd like to see better images of. bimy Road maybe you jie there's loads of. images of bimy road on the on the net in. in Romania we did a series of. magnetometry surveys this is called hria. it's it's sometimes referred to as the. Romanian Pompei and so to ground truth.

our magnetometry survey we opened up. trenches to find these Roman roads and. so what you see when you uh look at. Roman roads is you see Pottery in the. packing of it you see animal bones in. fact they specifically use these. complete um toe foot bones from cattle. and horses and Aeros AER are these kind. of uh ceramic vessels used to transport. wine and olive oil and things like that. as drainage and so you know as you dig. into a road surface you expect to find.

this kind of material everywhere I've. excavated roads in Greece in Italy and. in Romania and how old are these roads. these are from uh this is about 2 years. ago yeah and so this is the kind of. packing that you get you get plentiful. artifacts associated with roads all the. time and there's no reason I could see. maybe the animal bones not preserving. underwater but Ceramics preserve really. really well those thousands and. thousands of shipwrecks that we've. excavated most of what we find is the. wood from the ship and then ceramic.

vessels and so that survives ceramic is. virtually indestructible once it's. high-f fired and so you know this is the. kind of stuff that we find alongside. Road surfaces and we find it everywhere. in the world and uh at bimy how much. searching have they done looking for. things like that a great deal of of work. has been done by by amateurs who. archaeologists have poured really most. unpleasant SC on for for several decades. um but that that work um has in my view. been been highly valuable and has been.

worthwhile doing I don't claim that the. bimin road is a road that's just what. it's referred to these days I I do claim. that it's a very large megalithic. structure uh which was submerged by. rising sea levels so calling a road is. an unfortunate term you can't compare it. to this road and we don't know what it. is but it's what it is is a series of. megalithic blocks laid out side by side. on to of perhaps something more that. gives you the scale of it because. there's a problem with looking at things. up close yeah and can I just give a.

quick shout out to UT Austin which. directs that project in. Romania UT Austin you guys rock shout. out okay so that looks crazy. man-made that last image though go to go. back to that last one that that's crazy. I mean that is how big are these Stones. they they weigh a couple of tons each. they're about 12T long on one side by. about 15t long fairly uniform in size. they're Fair they're fairly uniform in. size in many cases and again the.

contrary has been claimed uh in many. cases they are propped up on other. blocks underneath them uh there are. multiple layers uh and in many cases the. bedding planes do not in fact slope as. one would expect If This Were natural. they're horizontal uh and this is one of. the things that's been missed in the in. in the geological literature um but uh. go to the one the upper left hand corner. Jamie. please yeah you know I'm just looking. for some proof here it's all right but.

things look cool I get that but it's. like a question of how do we tell the. difference between man-made and natural. and that's not easy and I've never. really again seen architecture like this. we don't see stuff like this on the. sites that Graham goes to in ancient. apocalypse for example it doesn't look. like this if it's the same culture at. those places we'd expect to see more. sites that look like this right we we're. dealing with completely different parts. of the world correct yeah which is my. point that it's not all one culture yeah. I agree so this one is fascinating look.

at that one that that doesn't Intrigue. you you don't look at that and go wow. that really looks man-made I think it. looks really cool but again it's I've. seen a lot of but if that if you knew. for sure that was man-made that would. that would wouldn't that sink. up like if if you knew for sure if this. had been dated and everyone knew where. this came from and you saw this and this. was from an archaeological site that was. welln and established you would look at. that and say yes that fits that you. would you wouldn't look at that if it.

was in a well-known archaeological site. and say oh this piece is man-made all. the other stuff is clearly. natural I mean look to me I don't see. anything that tells me that it's. man-made is all I can say I screwed that. up what I meant to say is say if you. looked at this you wouldn't say this is. natural if you you looked at this out of. a known archaeological side I just. reversed it sorry if you looked at this. at a known archaeological site and there. was other structures there and then. there was this you would say this is a. part of that you wouldn't say that this.

is natural not necessarily so there's a. site that I worked with but look at this. right here I I get what you're saying. you know what I'm saying like if there. was if there was other structures next. to that that were clearly man-made you. would assume I would think that that. would be man-made as well no that was. what I was going to say is there's often. times a lot of natural stones alongside. archaeological stones at sites there was. this one example of a perfectly circular. depression at this site in uh north of. pilos and so it we kept saying to.

ourselves it's it's it's it's in the. middle of a stone structure and so we. went back and forth on whether it's. man-made or not this circular depression. geologists showed up they said nope. that's not that part's not man-made if. you see what I mean we are we listen and. collaborate with geologists who. understand how to tell the difference. well we definitely know that that. happens with sin holes there's a great. example of this very C sinkhole that. goes was like hundreds of feet deep. right Jamie that one that swallowed up. those buildings and it looks crazy like. someone took an apple core to the Earth.

and it's completely nut can happen that. is nuts but that's sort of a different. thing than Stones being laid out in a. uniform fashion like that no it wasn't. here what was the name of the. site what what are you looking for no no. she he was looking at pilos which is not. the site itself it was an early htic. site north of it that I'm blanking on. right this second. so um since we uh Saw Eugene shin and.

the reference from the audience to the. to the Sheep uh who believe in. outrageous possibilities Like A Lost. Civilization of the Ice Age um I want to. address Flint the way that uh you um. dealt with the media about my work um. and I'm going to show a little. PowerPoint presentation here and we'll. talk it through um. well we know that it's very painful to. be burnt at the stake um and Heretics. were burnt at the stake until relatively.

recently and and and there's Galileo. brought before the Inquisition for. heresy um and here we have Flint Dibble. um who sorry if I'm being direct Flint. but you do recently appear to have set. yourself up as a sort of modern. Inquisition to um investigate and test. uh whether uh output actually. uh fits into what is regarded as. acceptable thought by the mainstream so. I noticed your attack on the um home.

hedi uh controversy uh on your YouTube. channel uh and that concerns the work of. uh lee Burger who's a Explorer and. residence with National Geographic um he. was really too big a target for you to. bring down Flint but uh this guy my. friend Danny Hillman nataja uh he he. wasn't uh such a big Target for you to. bring down uh and you presented this um. this video on your YouTube channel where.

you refer to it as a pyramid scheme. which is an insult in itself um and I'd. like to take this opportunity just to. play a little clip from um Flint's. YouTube channel if that's all right with. you Flint yeah feel free okay Jamie. another bit of air drop. here um now this is uh a clip from your. YouTube channel and this was an. interview with Dr L yeah now you um you. very very smart that you brought on a. couple of Indonesian um speakers to join.

your assassination of the work of Danny. Hillman nataja um because Dr luff yandre. excavated the site of Gung Padang he did. major excavations there indeed so indeed. so and and there's a conflict of. interest with between him that's um lrey. at the at the bottom there there's a. conflict of interest between him and. Dany regarding G padding and work done. on G pading but I'm more interested in. the way that you guys present this and. the mockery that's involved in it let's.

just play that little clip uh uh Jamie. Harry do you want to expand on any of. these points or bring up a different. point of view of your thoughts on this. article I will criti him about the uh. the outdor first okay if you see the. outdors is there is a Danny hman and the. others is you can see only one the. archaeologist who is the archaeologist. the one archaeologist. is Ali aliar. so yeah yeah 11 is the geologist all the.

gapi and the geologist it's not the. archaeologist wait wait they have one. sentence they say on top of this buried. decayed Rock Mass a unique stone. artifact resembling a traditional Sunan. dagger called kuang Stone was discovered. that is all they. say is that how you identify uh. artifacts in. Indonesia Deni the of the the oldest uh.

uh pyramid I think it's only Ali Akbar. who support him for this. one he's the only one there's only one. that's the only one I think because I. don't I don't find the an person and the. gram Hancock too is a circle of the SEO. science for me so it's not the he circle. is not the archaeologist you know the. ordinary people or people in the outside. they they they waiting our our research.

and they waiting what we said because. they always believe what we said the. archaeologist said we we said is is the. is the civilization okay it's. civilization it's like that because we. are the researcher we are the. archaeologist now I'll continue with my. little bit of presentation there um if. we can call that up again. Jamie uh that's the. still uh flint and then let's go on um.

so here we have uh you have great. influence on media and culture you say. that you just have a small YouTube. channel and that that's true Flint you. do have a small Outreach on YouTube but. you have a much larger Outreach with. with journalists and you've put yourself. forward you and and John Hoops actually. as um people that journalists should. talk to so This concerns gunung Padang. now gunung Padang was the first episode. in my Netflix fli ancient apocalypse TV. series it's about this huge pyramidal. structure in uh the island of java in.

Indonesia uh which the work of Danny. Hillman who's a very experienced. geologist um has suggested might be as. much as 25 27,000 years old at the very. base of it um and and um here we have uh. the guardian well there's Bill Farley on. the left he's strongly W strongly. recommending that flints interview the. one I've just shown a clip from be. watched uh there's Bill Farley saying it. was not worthy of publication this is.

the article that Danny Danny Hillman and. his team published a peer- reviewed. article on this it went through a year. of peer reviewed before it was published. until flint and his colleagues began to. put pressure on in the media uh here's. the claim being rubbished by Dibble and. others um they point out that NATA. provided no evidence that buried. material was made by humans actually. they did uh in Danny's in Danny's uh. estimation the what the remote sensing. shows is Rock structures that have been. cut and shaped and moved into place by.

by human beings um and um the net result. uh is uh of all this pressure was that. archaeological archaeological. prospection the journal that published. the paper came under such huge pressure. there was such a huge amount of media. fuss about this and I do think actually. that all of that was caused I think poor. Dany suffered because his um findings. were featured in my show I think the the. the the reaction of archaeology to my. show was probably why Danny got targeted.

but at the end of the day uh the. witchfinder general worked out and uh. the piece was retracted causing massive. humiliation for Dany and his team now. what Danny and his team asked for was. that criticisms be published alongside. the article but that the article not be. retracted and that seems to me to be. fair enough um flint and his colleagues. have uh really created a huge fuss in. the media about me and this is just a. small example Satan loves Graham Hancock.

the most but wait a minute they but hold. on they didn't poish that right. who I'm talking about Flint's influence. on media can I make but hold on but you. can't connect Flint to that go go back. to that image again you can't connect. Flint to this well I can I make a quick. com but even if but this Satan loves. Graham Hancock the most is either one of. two things it's either an insane person. or it's some sort of a propaganda. campaign it's someone who's trying to. dismiss you or get the fundamentalist.

Christians against you it it followed. the onslaught on my work following the. the release of ancient apoc understand. but this person might have gone after. you anyway I'm talking about can I make. a quick comment about my media influence. a lot of my media influence has to do. with you announcing this conversation. the media rarely ever got in touch with. me about you until you announced this. conversation over a year ago and then. since then I I've had plentiful. journalists get in touch with me to. comment on things related to your show. so you're the one that's actually given. me this media platform I do not go to.

these journalists at all contact me. which is great because that's why you're. here and I'm happy you're here to do. this and I think we could do this. amicably we we can discuss these things. the the issue of whether or not this. site has any evidence I'm I'm moving on. from G Padang I think that's kind of. important so for the people listening. like what evidence is there the evidence. is can we years of of dedicated work. that's published in that in that paper. which eventually was was retracted why.

were you laughing when you saw that tool. because it wasn't a tool you don't think. that's a tool what do you think that is. I think it's natural again that was that. looked absolutely nothing like any. human-made tool I've ever seen and to be. honest the excavator of the site agrees. and so you know that it was never. described in the Artic can we see that. again can we see that image again I. don't have it on me but uh you can go. back on there we have to play the video. again it's we can Google it if you want. to I just want to see that image I can. Google but actually that's the least.

important part of it right but the. IM that piece right there boy that piece. looks like a tool to me it looks like. it's been shaped by human hands if you. cut out the you cut out the part where. we go into it in a little more depth and. we compare it to the K Jang daggers. which it I'm not saying it looks like a. COO Jang dagger I don't even know what. that is but what if someone showed me. that in the museum I would say oh 100%. that was made by human beings does it. mean it 100% was mean in the weirdest of. circumstances could that be naturally. formed perhaps but boy it doesn't look.

like it look at the the right angles at. the base of it how it looks like it's. carved and worked look at the line down. the center of it that's not how we. identify but that that looks very. similar to the touch of modern humans or. some human that we would recognize as. human un Stone and that's the importance. of people that are familiar with the. millions of artifa that do exist so we. can look for things that doesn't look to. you like it was worked not really no no. that looks like just a natural stone. weird eroded Stone from a slope so like.

maybe thousands and thousands of years. of a channel passing underneath the base. of it hased that part of it sediment. stuff like that are braiding against it. but how do you what about the uniform. Peak which is fairly uniform the peak of. it the way it expands at the base and it. looks like there's a it's just not how. we identify tools though the line down. the center of it I understand but that. nothing about that no no and in fact. part of what we were laughing at is that. they don't describe it or go into any. detail about it in the article they just.

describe it in half of a sentence and. then they show an image that's about the. size of my you know like a a quarter or. a nickel how large is the actual. artifact I think it's something like. this so you're making about 12 in yeah. okay the the artifact is the least. important part of Danny's work I'm I was. just fascinated by the dismissal of it. that you guys were laughing because I. just don't know. a thing to laugh at part of that was in. the context of the fact that uh L fondre. had been snubbed he'd been working at. that site for several decades he'.

published a book on it and none of his. research was ever acknowledged in this. article and the media never ever went to. him which is why I got in touch with him. because there's all this publicity. around this site ganung Padang partly. because Graham's right it was on his. show and nobody's paying attention to. the fact that major excavations had. happened there there's I'm sorry I'm. interrupting you but this image looks. much less U man-made yeah and that's. just another image of the same thing but. the other side of it is probably what we. were looking at previously yeah it is.

yeah okay but that looks man-made one so. one side does and one side does not just. to my untrained eyes the bottom bottom. right hand corner Jamie click on that. one yeah get make that a little larger. that's that looks odd that looks very. odd that looks that looks like somebody. worked it the other side does not. there's not another fact in the world. like it can I can I be clear yeah please. that the issue here is not that I. understand I mean we we're probably. getting lost in the weed Danny Danny.

Hillman and his team have done years of. investigative work with seismic. tomography with ground penetrating radar. using their expertise in those. Technologies they are of the opinion and. we can see the um image second roughly. in the middle at the top there those are. photographs from lyre's book not from. Danny Hillman's article this is the. excavations that he did where he has. clear radiocarbon. D top left sorry top.

left. keep where you see the red and the blue. yes this is this is an example of of the. the resist resistivity tomography work. that Danny and his team in the article. there's a question mark after tunnel. chamber and my view is that this work. needed to be taken much more seriously. and not rubbished and dis missed in the. way that it has been uh and that I do I. I I do feel that the retraction of the. article rather than the publication of.

opposing comments is important and. thirdly lrey yandre has not done any of. the work looking into the deep depth of. G Padang his excavations have only been. in the top meter or so can I pause you. for a second here and explain what we're. looking at so the people listening we're. we're looking at an analysis of the the. ground structure yeah and um what type. of instruments were. used uh seismic tomography which sends S. waves down into the ground and bounces. back a reflection of what is seen low.

resistivity high resistivity uh at. Ground penetrating radar we don't have. time to go into all of this in depth the. the information has been extensively. published I've published on my website. uh a massive uh article by Dany. responding to the retraction of his. article and I suggest that we don't. waste a lot of time going on with it. okay but what evidence is there that. this is manmade uh the evidence is the. interpretation that Dany and his team. who are largely geologists have put upon. the imagery that they receive from their.

remote sensing work and their suggestion. is that there are man-made tunnels and. Chambers in the depth of gunung Padang. that the ston work in gunung Padang is. not in its natural formation or natural. shape that has been placed by human. beings and when you go down and you take. up soil samples associated with that. ston work you find that they date back. to about 25,000 years ago none of those. cores came from that tunnel or chamber. or any of those features that they. described none of this is a reason for.

the article to be retracted I never. called for the article to be retracted. and it's still available online in its. full text and all of its images there do. you think having the word retracted. across the top of an article helps The. credibility of the article yeah but they. they did not do an honest job of. presenting the archaeology of the site. By ignoring the major excavations that. have already taken place there and I. think that that's very important when. you the excavations been in the top what. was the findings of those excavations. yeah can I get the HDMI really quickly.

Jamie okay so on the left is actually. the book published by L fondre and I'll. show you some of the trenches that he's. done he's done so there's this. megalithic architecture there and he's. gone down in all the different Terraces. and along many of the different walls. and excavated below them so that you can. get datable material from under the. walls that are visible the same walls. that Graham featured in episode one of. ancient apocalypse right and so in the. case of all of them he has carbon.

charcoal that he has taken and that. dates to 2500 years ago it's impossible. for there to be clear charcoal. underneath all of these walls here let. me get a photo also he's found plentiful. artifacts groundstone this is for. grinding sort of uh plant products this. is pottery that he's found and then. charcoal found underneath each of these. walls where there's sterile soil date. that and that tells you that the wall. dates after that and consistently across. all of them the dates came back is about.

2100 years ago so 100 BCE is when the. walls that we see on the site were built. theny doesn't dispute any of that for. the depths to which lutrey yandre. excavated but he doesn't demonstrate of. anything under 20 M below he does. demonstrate ITS m and he claims that. there was a reorganization of the site. that was reorganized in an earlier layer. but these photos from this excavation. demonstrate that this was not built on. earlier architecture this is built on.

soil and so there's no architecture. directly underneath these Terraces none. of the areas where Dany excavated or. dropped the cor into have anything to do. with the standing architecture that's. there okay so to summarize these. particular excavation sites are very. clear 2 something 100 years 2,100 years. very clear now Graham what evidence is. there that there's man-made structures. or any evidence of man-made construction. that's older than that there it's the. interpretation of the ground penetrating.

radar and the seismic resistivity. seismic demography work that's been done. is the interpretation of that made by. Dany and his team past a year which is. just this that we're looking at here no. there's much more past but we just don't. have time to go there I'm actually. giving a presentation on on Flint's. influence on media and culture uh and. we're getting drawn into a but it's. important because it's something that. comes up I want to clarify so is what. but what evidence that you could show us. that looks like man-made structures.

man-made tunnels man-made anything other. than this stuff that's on the outside so. the presumption is that these deeper. layers are older but why they're. definitely older uh because of the. carbon dating of the soils that have. been brought up beside them what comes. to question is whether those soils were. associated with anything worked by human. beings right and what evidence is it. there that there are the evidence is the. interpretation of Dany and his team from. the remote sensing that we are looking. at Stone work that has been manipulated.

and maneuvered by human beings and how. do they make that decis they never claim. anything was manipulated and maneuvered. they never claim that in that article. I've read that Artic at the depths of. Gung Padang that the stone is not in its. natural formation they claim that that's. a tunnel chamber question mark they have. another area where they claim there's a. step question mark and I have never seen. evidence for a pyramid where you're. saying you're question marks for these. things but this is not ex clear this is.

not so when we talk about all the. conflict involved in something that is. clear as day like the bimy road right so. he disagrees he says it could be a. natural formation other people agree. this is less evidence than that right. because we're not seeing the actual. stone structures we're not seeing the. actual work we're interpre in this. ground. penetrating yeah exactly and so with. archaeology we'd often do what we call. ground truthing so I showed you that.

road at hria excavated by the University. of Texas at Austin the first thing we. did was we did remote sensing so we did. magnetometry and before we could figure. out exactly whether the magnetometry was. accurate or not we put in trenches to. test it and that's always what you do. when you do remote sensing whether it's. remote sens with satellite imagery lar. magnetometry uh GPR ground penetrating. radar is here you always want to make. sure that you test it cuz you you have. to be questioning that it your. interpretation of it can be wrong.

because that does happen quite a bit of. times you know it's like if you go out. with a metal detector right and you get. some signals it's not always going to be. what you want it to be if you see what I. mean and so you actually go and you test. it that's just the way that all. archaeology with remote sensing works. right right okay this is okay obviously. we don't have time to get into depth but. yeah I'll what I'll say is there's a. major article by Dany published on my. website which presents all his evidence. and which uh and and which addresses the.

issue of what he regards as the unfair. retraction of his paper and I don't. believe his paper would have been. retracted if gang Padang had not. appeared as uh episode one of my Netflix. series is that evidence to you as. compelling or less compelling than bimy. Road uh it's it's at least as compelling. at least as compelling but we we don't. have time to get into it here I I want. to complete what I was what I was saying. which is the the influence that flint. and his colleagues have on on media and. culture um and if we can put.

my my. um HDMI back on yeah so this was the. next slide um this is uh Benjamin Steel. from the um SEO Journal search engine. Journal thank you Flink Dibble um for. speaking with him uh and and we're. learning that uh how algorithms are. rewarding rewarding good faith critique. by legit scientists and.

creators um people ask here's uh just a. Google search uh archaeologist Flint. Dibble says Hancock's claims reinforce. white supremacist ideas stripping. indigenous people of their Rich Heritage. and instead giving credit to aliens or. white people actually I've never did you. really say that no I said that this idea. of Atlantis the way it goes back 200. years it has been used for those reasons. so are you saying your quote is. incorrect I think that it's editing me. out of context Graham I've never called.

you a white supremacist or a racist no. no you said you said you hang on that's. because that's because you're very if I. if I may say so very slippery in the way. that you deal with because you know. perfectly well you know perfectly well. that saying that my work uh encourages. white supremacism uh is and and. encourages racism is going to end up. with me being tarred as a racist and you. know very well that taring somebody as a. racist in this day look the results. there down there make no mistake hanok.

is a white supremacist like Trump T it's. racist fiction pretending to be these. are not my words I'm talking about your. influence 19th century sources you cite. 16th century sources and I label those. as racist and I see it as a problem to. uh to readapt those kind of sources. without critiquing them because this. idea of a white Atlantis is what existed. in the 19th. century but you might not but you're. citing those sources on should I not and.

I never make that the foreground of. anything that I write I put that in. there as a paragraph and I say he should. not be citing these kind of sources. without critiquing them because they do. the harm there's a lot of harm in the. history specific about that like what. are these sources that you're sting. about Atlantis and why do you think that. they reinforce white supremacy yeah sure. sure so um the reason is is because for. a long time Atlantis was used as a. colonial justification by the crown of. Spain for claiming land in the new world.

and so what they this idea of Atlantis. um from the 16th in built up into the. 19th century with the book on Atlantis. by Ignus Donnelly it described this as. this kind of global superpower that was. you know European and that was. responsible for these monuments in. indigenous areas it stripped credit away. from local cultures of their Heritage. right but he's not doing that I never. said he did I said that he's cting but.

this is something that is a very nuanced. subject and when you say that it. reinforces white. supremacy again I said the sources do. right but you but go back to the quote. Jamie go back toe but listen but you. this this this this quote here reinforce. white supremacist ideas stripping. indigenous people with the rich heritage. and instead giving credit to aliens or. white people none of those things are. true I know Graham doesn't even talk. about. aliens you say that I said that not in.

specific relation to Hancock's claims. but in specific relation to this. narrative at of Atlantis that has gone. back hundreds of years right but that. dble here's the guardian so they're. misquoting you are they as dible states. such claims reinforce white supremacist. ideas they strip indigenous people of. their Rich Heritage and instead give. credit to aliens or white people why. didn't you get the the guardian to put. that right well I don't did you actually. say that though I did not say that. Graham reinforces white supremacist. ideas as I've said so this quote is not.

real uh they strip the the stories of. Atlantis yes and I think that that's an. issue so Graham you go around the world. to megalithic sites right so the quote. the quote reinforce white supremacist. ideas that's not yours no that's not a. quote it's not in quotation right it was. in the other article that's what I'm. getting to they strip indigenous people. of their Rich Heritage and give credit. to aliens or white people in short the. series promotes ideas of race science. that are outdated and long deunk and.

this is your. own this is your own article Flint here. you are I'm quoting from that's a quote. from your article published in the. conversation this sort of race science. is outdated and lyncs debunked. especially given the strong links. between Atlantis and arens proposed by. several Nazi archaeologists you are. associating me with this and you are. attempting to get me distance yourself. from that is actually what I'm trying. that's not what you're doing though. you're associating him with that clearly.

propaganda look at the way it's phrased. on your article this sort of race. science is outdated and long since. debunked especially given the strong. links between Atlantis and arens. proposed by several Nazi archaeologists. that's like a part of the headline so. you want me to show you some tweets I've. gotten from people areans. of listen stop stop don't do that this. is they're not connected to him they're. just humans there's a lot of crazy. people in the world this is you we're.

talking about you yes but what I'm. trying to say is that people. misinterpret Graham there's lots of. people on the internet that think that. he's talking about a lost white. civilization but this is something that. you chose to highlight at the top of the. page no I did not highlight that at the. top of the page like that that's. actually near the end of it that's a. quote from the article that's near the. end of it but it wise it up there like. that I I put it there you did it oh. Jesus I did not put that there I'm just. taking an I'm just taking an extract. from Flint's article okay but you did. print it you did print that this sort of.

race science is outdated long since. debunked what were you referring to when. you said that if you w referring to. Graham I was referring to his take on. the old Mech heads where he described. them as from an African culture and he. specifically took that from Ignatius. Donnelly who also described them that. way almost in the exact same words based. on their FA appearances despite the fact. that an ciphers has done excavation. there and demonstrated with DNA and. artifacts that these were indigenous. people from that area in Mexico and so.

that was an older essay that Graham has. written and that was what that quote was. specifically relevant to but how does it. reinforce white supremacist ideas that. they were seafaring Africans well. because again it strips credit away from. the people who actually did that so but. that doesn't reinforce white supremacy. it reinforces look if anything he's. trying to say that it was black people. from Africa that were able to seair and. create these structur pretty silly. stereotypes is what I what do you mean.

about facial features but they he's. there's many people that have made those. connections looking at those they look. Polynesian perhaps people that have. excavated it and done the DNA right at. that site at San Lorenzo have shown that. none of those people had African descent. right but what are those structures. representative of are they the people. that were there or but is it possible. that those. of African we don't have any evidence of. it but we do have this the actual. structure of those faces and they do I. mean be honest they look either Pollan.

bring they look fascinating excuse me I. can I can bring up some imagery on that. um and perhaps we'll do that next but I. would just love to just complete this. little point that I want to make here. which is the influence of flint and his. colleagues on media and culture um and. and and again we've got the society for. American archaeology 5,000 members Flint. is one Flint co-author John Hoops. actually helped to write this letter for. the Society of American archaeology. they're saying that I embolden extreme. voices that misrepresent Arch.

archaeological knowledge in order to. spread false historical narratives that. are overly misogynistic chauvinistic. racist and anti-semitic I mean you apply. those labels to somebody and you're. going to get that person hated by a lot. of people whole ball I did not write. that and no your your co-author John. Hoops wrote it um we we urge to add. disclaimers that the content is. unfounded they they want it to be called. science fiction in other words that's a. very clever way of cancelling me cancel. culture at work go back to that why.

would you're so much more of a celebrity. than me here's Flint Netflix correct. corre I'm sorry I'm sorry that I am. Flint that's that's not really my. problem hey Netflix hey Netflix correct. your mistake and reclassify ancient. apocalypse as fantasy Netflix corrects. your correct your mistakes this is you. pushing this uh Flint. uh and then the General Media fishy. Netflix show uh ancient apocalypse that. is the most dangerous Show on Netflix.

you use the word dangerous repeatedly in. in in your conversation piece I don't. think so I don't think I've ever called. you dangerous Graham I've not called you. these things you're misinterpreting me. you don't think I'm dangerous you don't. think that um I think that the way that. you refer to archaeology as you say that. you're number one enemy of archaeology. and things like that you are promoting. people to dislike what we do we are. doing our jobs no you started off. ancient apocalypse by calling us. patronizing and arrogant archaeologists.

see me as Public Enemy Number One that's. ex you started off by saying we're not. sitting around thinking about you most. most of my dad's colleagues when I. mentioned I'm coming on here to do this. they had no idea you talk about the Ice. Age they thought you speak arist like. youin who see me as Public Enemy Number. One and who have quite a substantial. Outreach in the the media. uh un pseudo archaeology as Dibble calls. it acts to reinforce white supremacist. ideas Flint dible interview ancient.

apocalypse grahe hanock and conspiracy. theories I mean what the [ __ ] is the. conspiracy theory uh that that archa. that that archaeologists are conspiring. against me which I've never said or ever. suggested you claim we're trying to hide. the evidence just like with Clovis first. we shut down alternative narratives. conspiracy hang on tell me where I've. claimed that you hide the evidence you. have claimed many times that we try to. shut down alternative narratives that we. try to silence them that suggests. there's an archaeological conspiracy. where we're all working together to have. one narrative no it suggests that.

there's a strongly held point of view. there's a paradigm and that those who go. against the Paradigm are likely to be. attacked like Tom Dill like Jac sank. Mars all of them still had successful. careers for many. decades excavated many other sites right. but are you denying that he was attacked. for the very thing that you're saying. archaeologists don't do no but that's a. I'm denying there's a coordinated attack. there was no never said there's a. coordinated attack on D there was not an. attack of course was there more than one. person I have no idea this was before I.

was even a how many ARS were involved in. this how many when the people that. criticized D they went after him oh very. large number the Clovis first Lobby the. Clovis Police as they used to be called. by other it wasn't well think about how. many people actually study the Clovis. period that is a tiny period in one area. of the world the majority of archae. ologist do not study that even. americanist most American archist stud. later periods it's fundamental to the. issue of the peopling of the Americas.

but it's direct it's also direct. evidence of a group of archaeologists. going after this one guy for saying. something that turned out to be correct. it's evidence of an academic argument. which happens yes not not that simple. right because he was correct and they. dismissed him they wouldn't listen to. his evidence and he turned out to be. corre what do you mean he kept. Excavating that site he invited people. down there and convinced them that he. was right if they didn't listen to him. and they take the data and they did. dismiss him and publicly they still did. all those things that you're trying to. offc I'm not trying to obfuscate. anything that's no that's not fair at.

all he invited it's a famous event from. the 1990s where he invited down a series. of Clovis first people and he convinced. them at Monte Verde they came down there. they had a conversation he showed them. the evidence and what resulted from that. conversation was that entire group. changing their mind on stuff it was very. I'm not saying there were not a few bad. actors. there's [ __ ] everywhere but what I. am trying to say is that it's not some. sort of conspiracy of everybody in. archaeology against D nobody said.

everybody nobody said everybody and. nobody's saying conspiracy I don't. believe there's a conspiracy against me. I've said that a thousand times you your. rep Public Enemy Number One yes I am to. clearly clearly Flint to you because you. have and and and John Hoops uh for. example from the University of Kansas I. can play you some stuff from John Hoops. too if you want so what is this right. here it says to gr Jimmy and others we. see you and we'll share with the world. just how you try to bully and censor us. who's trying to censor you well I'd. argue that when people swarm me this is.

a quote from Flint Dibble by the way. from one of his tweets well there's. times when people swarm me and they. people online you me yeah yeah of course. tweet people yeah exactly yeah don't. read that okay I try not to but I have a. small Twitter account yeah but that has. nothing to it's just people it's just. random when you're public okay and you. post something public and you get. involved in a discussion about some. contentious ISS that's public the whole. world can attack you so try to connect. that to Graham or connect that to. anything you're just dealing with people. mhm he's not responsible for that you're.

responsible if you engage and read it. Flint do you do you believe that there's. such a thing you know we've all heard. the word big farmer do you think there's. such a thing as big archaeology no oh. how odd um because here you are Flint. Dibble January 23rd January 23rd uh this. is 2023 scare quotes it's sarcasm the. reality is we live in a period where. we're seeing an increased distrust of. Scholars and scientists as an.

archaeologist I think we have to respond. by engaging with the public and we do in. many ways the reach of big Archaeology. is Way Beyond that of Graham Hancock uh. think about the millions of school. children and parents who visit museums. etc etc um what you what you you just. told me you don't believe in the big. archaeology but right here you said. there is a big archaeology that's in. quotes for sarcasm oh sorry you lost me. there uh because you're you're saying so. so you don't think that um the millions. of school children and and uh the.

teaching that the the teaching of. archaeology uh what Archaeology teaches. us about the past forms the basis of the. education system about the past not. people like me people like you that. forms the basis of the education system. about the past now you like to present. yourself as this small lone voice but. frankly by comparison with big theology. as you call it in your so-called Square. scare quotes by comparison with that my. Outreach is very small even on Netflix. Graham I was hoping we'd have a.

respectful conversation here yes I I was. I was hoping that you would not. disrespect me uh in the way that you've. done I came here to present actual. evidence and I've done that here you. have Dibble exhorted colleagues to. mobilize worldwide in the battle against. pseudoarchaeology if there's any. conspiracy here who's it. against let's move on next one Fint. are you the balls in your court the. balls in my court yeah go ahead say. something say something interesting say. something new say something interesting.

well that's listen this is not like I I. came here to have a respectful. conversation I want to be very clear. about this CR I have critiqued the. sources that you have used and I've. critiqued the evidence that you used I. have only met you for the first time. today so I do not know how you are as a. person or how you treat other people and. so to be honest I think that you've just. just tried to go and smear me back for. what you see as a smear on yourself fair. enough that's okay I'm just presenting. facts what what you actually said I'm. prevent I'm presenting facts as well.

from archaeology yes uh they show kind. of Big Data evidence that we actually. have done in the are ofes your entire. civilization let's have a look at let's. have it doesn't disprove my entire civil. how could you possibly do that when. you've only investigated less than 5% of. the Continental shelves 1% of the Sahara. 1% of the Amazon how can you possibly. how can you claim there's an Ice Age. civilization and ignore all the Ice Age. evidence that we have the Ice Age. evidence that you have I don't dispute. it of course there were hunter gatherers. in the world in the Ice Age there's.

hunter gatherers in the world now I'm. sorry there's hunter gatherers in the. world now there's hunter gatherers in. the Amazon rainforest there's hunter. gatherers in in the namibian desert mean. we coexist with hunter gatherers today. why shouldn't an advanced civilization. have coexisted with hunter gatherers in. the past I mean look as I've said I. think you have an issue with the sources. that you site and I think that you have. an issue with the evidence that supports. your civilization I think we should. probably take a break and our can. certainly take a break but unhappy that. you have Associated me with white.

supremacism racism misogyny uh. antisemitism always the same quote. recycled so I said something once and. then it gets recycled in like 15. different understand but you said it I. did say it and I said that there's this. history of this idea which has been used. by white supremacists and that's an. issue and I I I would like Graham to to. separate himself from that history in a. stronger way because he goes around the. world to different cultures and he.

claims that instead of their ancestors. building this stuff it was done by his. civilization they were the ones that. taught people around the world how to do. that but does he do that in his own. backyard does he go to Stonehenge and. say that Stonehenge was built by this. Lost Civilization no he says it was. built by Neolithic British people. because I wouldn't look for A Lost. Civilization in northern Europe during. the Ice Age why not we have gatherers. there yes A Lost Civilization would not. be choosing to live in northern Europe. during the Ice Age it was a frozen.

[ __ ] Wilderness not everywhere why. would they want to live there not after. the last glacial maximum we have people. in the UK living there well it's not. where I look I look I look in areas in. underserved areas of the world we talked. about this issue we have the we talked. about these mysterious strangers um the. lovely aspects of humans around the. world and and then he goes around and. tells people it wasn't their ancestors. that did that no I don't tell people. that well I don't I'm sorry I don't he. does a civilization that created it.

could the ancestors of the people that. were there before in the exact same area. let me summarize in very brief what I. what I am actually saying I'm saying. that there was a cataclysm at the end of. the last ice age it's called the younger. dras uh there are arguments about about. whether this cataclysm was caused by. fragments of a disintegrating Comet this. is the comet research group this is the. younger dras impact hypothesis but I'm. saying there was a cataclysm at that.

time there was a civilization now it's. you not me who say that that. civilization was an Empire it's you not. me who say that that Civilization you. know had temples and was highly advanced. in every I don't say that I don't say. that I'm looking in my view what we're. looking at is a civilization like all. others that emerged of shamanism but. that went a little bit further than some. other civiliz than some other. shamanistic cultures that developed a. highly Advanced knowledge of astronomy.

that was able to explore and map the. world and I'm saying that at the end of. the Ice Age That civilization was. largely destroyed that a very small. number of survivors settled amongst. hunter gatherers as we would today I've. made this point before but if there was. a cataclysm on our planet today people. from our so-called Advanced. technological civilization would not. survive it. we have absolutely no hope of surviving. a global cataclysm like the younger dras. because we are spoiled children of the. world we do not have the survival. techniques the people in the world who.

know how to survive are the hunter. gatherers in the world today and if I. were a survivor of this civilization I. would head for hunter gatherers and I. would try and make my home amongst them. so that so that I could have some hope. of surviving and that's all that I'm. suggesting is that a civilization that. which had quite Advanced astronomy which. was able to map the the world had a. knowledge of longitude I'm not saying. they had machines I'm not saying they. had Motorcars I'm not saying they sent. spaceship to the Moon I'm saying that. they were destroyed at the end of the. Ice Age that there were a very small.

number of survivors that those survivors. settled amongst other hunter gatherer. peoples and benefited from their. knowledge and exchanged knowledge with. them uh I am not saying that they. introduced agricultural products to. those people I'm not saying they brought. agriculture from where they came from. I'm saying that they helped to nurture. the idea of Agriculture uh amongst. amongst those people I suggest you take. a little bathroom break clear our heads. relax come back and let's let's discuss.

some of the ancient construction let's. discuss before we do that can I just. this the issue of the alch heads yes uh. I have no view actually on what they are. but can I just show some pictures please. yeah yeah. Jamie let me get the. um let me get the uh yeah so so these. are the alic heads Santa photographed. these uh in Mexico way back in the early. 1990s um and um they're certainly.

intriguing intriguing looking I I I'm. not sure whether they're Africans. whether they're Polynesians or whether. they're Maya they could well be they. could well be Maya I'm just interested. yes they're they're they're alch we have. we have a a strong connection between. the so-called alch civilization and the. Maya civilization Maya in in a sense are. the inheritors of the alch civilization. um I'm interested by things like this I. don't know what to make of them these. are all Mech figures from.

trotes uh in the center is a picture of. pharoh cafre wearing the nemes headdress. and I'm just intrigued by the fact that. these alch figures wear a very similar. headdress to that uh I don't know what. to make of it I'm not saying that. ancient Egyptians went to Central. America I'm not saying that Central. Americans went to ancient Egypt what I'm. suggesting is that maybe both of them. inherited a a shared idea from an. ancestral civilization that was was. ancestral to them both and then in the.

same alch culture we have these images. on the left uh the the figure that's. often referred to as the. Ambassador uh and on the right the. figure is called the Dan danzantes the. dancer figures from Monte Alban I I mean. Flint what do you make of these figures. what what sort of ethnic group would you. think they belong too I don't identify. ethnic groups like that man like it's a. stone carving that's not how we identify. ethnic groups no I I'm not I'm not. actually interested so so good so you.

don't identify an ethnic group but what. you do you see beards on these figures. yeah and people all over the world on. every continent have beards from. different ethnic groups it's it's just. curious that amongst the alme we have. this and we have this and we have this. and I'm just intrigued by that I don't. know people look different yes don't. know what it means exactly but I I do. find it intriguing and I see this as. actually an example of the problems here. because you cite Spanish Colonial. literature about say a white Kettle koad.

coming you talk about this as different. kinds of people yes you do in we got get. correct on this we got to get correct on. this are you saying that the whole story. of the bearded pale skinned qual coatl. was a Spanish invention yes I am I can. show you a depiction of of. from the pre Spanish period I can show I. can show you depictions too no can I. please get uh. the here we go this is ketle KOAT on the.

boura Codex this is from before any. Europeans arrived in the new world this. is on a hide it is the ink has been. analyzed the hides have been analized. and this individual has tan skin no. beard but a feathered hea headdress. because this is the feathered serpent. well actually we can't see anything from. that image but that's not the point that. I want to make the point that I want to. make is do you think that the Spanish. deliberately imposed an idea of qual.

kattle on the I think that every single. source that we have of white skin in. indigenous Americas comes from Spanish. sources and therefore I see are quoting. indigenous sources but quoting them. inaccurately because people quote things. in biased ways this happens all the time. how do you know they're quoting them. inaccurately because again we have. earlier. representations these. individuals they don't have white skin. this is the document Graham is there a.

document against about this Spanish. conspiracy what do you do you regard the. peoples of Mexico uh the peoples of. Colombia the peoples of Bolivia as so. stupid that they would simply accept an. imposition upon them by the Spaniards no. I think that interpreting these kind of. sources is difficult and so Jamie do you. mind playing my video by curly laapoa. he's an indigenous archaeologist here in. Mexico he is a co-host of the tales from. Atlantis podcast can I um interrupt you.

how old is that image the the image you. just showed it's from like the 14th. century BC okay 14th century ad you mean. AD sorry yes I I misspoke chill so this. is uh pre-spanish Invasion yeah okay. it's been dated and studied the hides. and the inks is there others of quok. quado from that period or before that. other KES they're all they're all very. similar yeah yeah if you go on Wikipedia. there's several images of them of him. okay goe players I'm kly Lao yawa an.

archaeologist and cultural consultant. specializing in mesoamerica I want to. briefly touch on why expertise is so. important when it comes to researching. our ancestral cultures and I'm going to. use the example of a mistake involving. the Feast of balisle a mes a ceremony. celebrating the rebirth of the Sun. during the winter solstice banket Salis. translates to the raising of the banners. in the naat language this refers to the.

multiple banners that are constructed to. decorate the various temples and sacred. centers associated with this Feast now. when the Spanish cronistas wrote about. the Feast of balisle they truncated the. word Panet alisi to the first three. letters P A an pan leaving us with La. Fiesta pan or the Festival of pan this. shortening of words in colonial Spanish. was pretty common as paper was in short.

supply and this was an effective way of. saving space Spanish Friars had. developed an entire method of shorthand. to accomplish this well the problem. arose when a non-expert looked at these. writings and didn't account for this. shorthand and La Fiesta lean became. erroneously translated as Festival of. bread Bon is bread in Spanish this. simple mistake can cause this. individual's Research into mesika.

festivals to go entirely off the rails. and it completely distorted the actual. meaning of the festival all because. someone without adequate training. decided to claim something without. adequate evidence expertise matters cont. context matters it makes sense to me. that if a group of people were conquered. by white people who showed up on boats. and dominated the society that they.

would have a great influence on a lot of. the myths and cultures and not only that. but that they would heavily discourage. deviation from the changes that they've. made to those myths and if you did that. over the course of one generation you. would have a complete different. narrative what intrigues me is that. whether he's described as having white. skin or a beard or not we have a. tradition of a civilizing hero qual. kattle in Mexico boik in.

Colombia um virocha in Bolivia um. depicted as a bearded individual who. comes in a time of chaos. who teaches certain. skills and then leaves this this. tradition is is a panamic. tradition David Carrasco I think you. have to respect the work of David. Carrasco has has drawn attention to this. and to and and and and to the notion. that the magical pen of Cortez could.

somehow have Hoodwinked an entire. continent uh into making up myths uh and. I just don't think that's credible at. all I don't understand what your video. is telling us either my video is trying. to explain the complexity of difficulty. of interpreting Spanish sources can I. show a different video that talks about. the complexity of ketle Kat as a figure. sure um can you play the video by uh. sorry let me the the one by Marica stole. but not the hallucinogens one the other.

one hello everyone my name is Marica. stall I'm an archaeologist and research. associate at Indiana University I also. live in Waka and work closely with rural. indigenous communities it's been claimed. that archaeologists do not engage with. indigenous myths this is simply not true. but once again context matters for. example the kolot myth that Graham. frequently cites was written a hundred.

years after the conquest by hispanicized. indigenous scribes who were educated by. Spanish priests hence the overtly. Christian overtones of this myth but. let's examine an indigenous mishek story. recorded prior to the. conquest several Gods including katakat. or or Lord nine wind in mtech mythology. perform a mushroom ceremony and create. the known world at aola during this. ceremony Lord nwin plays music by.

scraping a stone around a human skull. this is a completely different picture. of kokat than the one we get from the. postconquest myth preferred by Graham in. fact in the Misha ala today when asked. by Anthropologist John Monahan to draw. PETA his indigenous volunteers drew a. plumed serpent surrounded by. clouds again context matters and so the. key thing I'm trying to say here is that.

Ketel KOAT all these different figures. they're not all one thing that you lump. together there's a variety of different. Traditions you pick and choose the one. that you prefer for your story which is. fine I think that your investigations. and your beliefs are totally cool I'm. not going to convince you otherwise same. with people listening I'm trying to show. the facts here in just how complex the. situation is of indigenous myths of. archaeological evidence we have a lot of. different. evidence a Pan-American myth of a.

bearded. civilizer could not have been imposed on. the indigenous population entirely by. Spaniard that's my view that's David. carrasco's view as well uh again if you. look at my response to the. saa's attempt to get Netflix to. reclassify my show as science fiction. you'll find detailed information on that. there let mind sharing my screen really. quickly can I pause you for a second. though we we know that once indigenous. people are colonized that they try to at.

least alter their beliefs and if not. indoctrinate them into whatever beliefs. they have and we have recent evidence. for that in North America with how. Native Americans were treated when they. were put on reservations and brought. into school systems and and forced. Christianity and told that they couldn't. use their language I mean we we have. very recent evidence. of human beings trying to impose their. ideas on the people that they've.

conquered it makes sense to me that that. would be something that would also have. been done by the Spaniards that entered. Mexico yeah um I I'm not persuaded by. that in in in this case the myth is too. is too widespread and that constant. constant reference to a bearded figure. is is is very odd and as a as a. civilization bringer in a time of Chaos. in a time of disaster after a g great. cataclysm again I mean flint and I can. disagree on this I'm I'm intrigued by.

that information and I don't think that. the indigenous peoples of the Americas. were so easily Hoodwinked by the. Spaniards I don't think it's Hoodwinked. I think it's conquered and I also think. it's a lot more complex than that so I. study ancient Greek mythology and you. can see how these oral Traditions change. over time anyway even without being. conquered right you can see for example. the weapons the Spears and the shields. that homeric Heroes use Sue sherret has. an article on this and so you know you. can see how Achilles spear changes its.

description from a big Bronze Age style. spear the kind of spear that we see in. Bronze Age Graves and then the next line. he has a smaller Iron Age style spear. the kind of thing that we see painted on. Iron Age pots and so you know you can. see how these oral Traditions adapt to. what's going on around them and I think. that that's important to recognize here. here with these kind of traditions that. are that are written down by you know. Spanish educated indigenous people and. by Spanish priests as well also that you. must take into consideration I would.

imagine that a lot of these people can't. read and that these they're actually. probably not only being conquered by the. Spaniards but they're also being imposed. upon with their language which we know. to be fact which is why Mexicans speak. Spanish some of these Traditions were. recorded by Bernardino Des sahagun. within 20 years of the conquest. Bernardino dagun is relied upon. extensively by by archaeologist 20 years. after the conquest after the conquest. right but don't man you could do a lot. in 20 years yeah yeah okay and again.

there's just no evidence for these kind. of culture Heroes with this color skin. or those kind of take a bathroom break I. don't care about the color skin I do. care about the culture Heroes okay we'll. take a bathroom break we'll come back. much more to talk about okay thank you. all all right we're back um I'd like to. I'd like to pick up on uh the finally on. this issue of quel coatal and on sahagun. and on the interpretation of indigenous. traditions and this is in my reply to.

the society for American archaeology and. their uh attempt to have my series. reclassified as science fiction uh where. they suggest that all these stories were. made up David Carrasco is a leading. scholar of the Americas and he writes I. have no doubt that Cortez was striving. to impress the Royal mind with his. extraordinary management skills or that. his literary craft was elegant and. profoundly political what is challenging.

to me is Glend din she's just another. one of these archaeologists who say that. it was all made up clendon claimed that. this Spanish political fiction of both. qual kle returning and moaz Zuma's. vacillation and collapse was picked up. by sahagun who powerfully reinforced it. erroneously thinking it was an Indian. belief when in fact the ruler's gesture. of abdication was a very late Dawning. story making its first appearance 30 or. more years after the conquest the. stunning implication is that this. Spanish fiction the story of moaz Zuma's.

paralysis parades down the years through. the literature and scholarship and is. internalized by commentators less wary. than clandinin all the way to Leon. Portia Who falls unconsciously under. Cortez's charismatic pen along with the. rest of us this means that Leon's P Leon. patil's extensive Nal train. and sense of the Aztec ethos not to. mention sahagun profound familiarity. with Spanish native exchanges contribute. no effec CR effective critical stance in. relation to the Spanish literary craft.

which later Spaniards were not aware of. and which a number of Indians. internalized as their own I'm quoting. from David Carrasco here I'm simply. stating that this issue about qual kadle. uh is uh is more complicated than Flint. would perhaps wish us to believe well no. I've stated from the very beginning that. it's extremely complicated that there's. a lot of different versions of kle. coatal Mythology and so I think that. it's wrong to say that there's only one. version of that and don't say there's. only one well you only use one in your.

argument and so I tend to think though. also that this is fairly irrelevant at. this point because I think what we're. still missing is any kind of accurate. archaeological evidence with dates so. when you go for example to the old Mech. heads or you talk about ketat or when. you talk about any of the kind of. evidence that you have in yonaguni in. underwater we're still missing dates and. how this relates to your larger. hypothesis of a lost Ice Age. civilization and so I think that that's. important to think about well-dated. evidence so do you mind if I go into my. argument about the domestication of.

plants and food and things like that. sure okay could I could I just since we. talked about Dany Danny Hillman and Gung. Padang um I do have a major article on. my site uh where Danny refutes the. retraction of his paper uh and there are. some images with that. which um will perhaps help us to. understand what he's what he's talking. about sorry I'm having to scroll through. an enormous amount of material here. there's a very long article on my.

website um like you I've probably. created like 500 slides for this. conversation this is not a slide I'm I'm. I'm live on my website here I don't know. how to get to the bottom of this. enormous piece of work you don't have a. slider on the right hand side I tried to. use it and when I used it it um it it. did something weird with the screen I'm. very old. Tech can you do like a a search for a. text yeah this is a Mac I just want to. get to the end of it like this you go.

there we are yeah um I just want to show. some of these these pictures that that. Danny uh puts up okay um and I would. urge those who are interested in in in. getting into this matter in depth to to. look in more detail uh at at at what. Danny has to say this article um but. uh there's that so-called uh kujang. stone or man-made. artifact um but.

it's it's really these are the different. units that have been identified with the. remote. sensing um not actually with remote. sensing those units were identified from. a scarp that was exposed but that's. okay uh. I'm not finding the pictures I want here. what are you trying to find I'm trying. to find the imagery of.

um yeah natural column rocks G Padang. colum no rocks it's the way when you get. down deep that this material is is is. referenced uh that Danny and his team. have concluded that even in the 27,000. year old parts of G Padang we are. dealing with uh man-made workmanship I. won't take it further than that which. slides are these are you talking like B8. B9 and B10 yeah yeah and those are at. 27,000 years no no those are not but.

he's he's pointing he's pointing out. that uh as we as we go deeper uh we get. material which is not in its natural. formation but is in a formation that was. placed by by human beings and uh I would. we sort of covered that before but like. yeah what is what's showing that it was. placed by human beings is this what. they're what was that last image that. you had up there a little higher up. above that what is not above that the.

one that showed that the outline of the. area what is that that's the five teres. it's a Terrace slope in a sense right so. that's what has been excavated yeah. that's what's been excavated by L and at. the base of that it's been dated to. about 2100 years yeah exactly that's. right and and Danny doesn't dispute that. it's the it's the deeper material that's. uh that's of Interest right but what. what evidence is it that shows that. deeper material has been manipulated by. humans well if we can pause for a minute. let me run through this enormous article.

and uh I will see if I can find it is. any of the evidence visual. yes so is it that same sort of thing. that like the imagery that showed yes. it's like that Roar shock test is what I. call it yeah so it's it's I'm sorry it's. too big it's too big an article for me. to go through it's there on my website. it's Danny's retraction uh it's Danny's. reputation of the retraction what are. you specifically looking for in this um. I'm looking for his for his ground. penetrating radar and his seismic Dem.

why don't you just do a search for. ground penetrating radar on this. page just what is it uh command F yeah I. got Jam will hook you up this is okay. ground penetrating R control here okay. how many versions of it there two. there's only two. yeah this is this is the correspondence. between him and the and the um editorial. team from archaeological. perspective uh which which unfortunately. ended up in the in the article being.

retracted instead of I want to point out. when I interviewed Dr yund his goal. talking to me was to write a response. like we never got in touch with the. journal to retract it was other people. that did that we wanted to write a. response and I think we're still aiming. to do so um so that's our goal like I I. don't know about Young. yeah. yeah and while we're on my website I'd. just like to say that I've recently put. up uh a major article um concerning.

gockley teepe and the issue of whether. we're looking at a transfer of. technology or gradual Evolution uh or. both uh there's been a huge amount of. research done around gockley. tee uh archaeologists have suggested. that that. research uh V appreciates my argument. that gock Tee was a transfer of. Technology I've been investigating that. research in depth uh and my view is it. strengthens my argument uh enormously. but again we're getting into material.

that's too far and too deep to go into. here I would just like no I think we. should get into this what makes you. think it's a transfer of Technology well. I start off uh my Netflix series by. saying it's an enormous site you can't. just wake up one morning with no prior. skills no prior knowledge no background. and working with stone and create. something like gockley tee there has to. be a long history behind it and that. history is completely missing the sufian. culture to me it very strongly speaks of. A Lost Civilization transferring their.

technology their skills their knowledge. to hunter gatherers and what I've done. in this article is I've brought up to. date my investigation into gobec Lee of. course the natufians are dealt with a. great length in this article what how do. I search. natufian um there there are many. predecessor cultures the question. question is who worked in stone who. worked in stone the question is um when. did this stone work if you look at the. um research by Huck and Gopher for. example uh and of the introdution of.

introduction of geometric elements into. the stonework in Pre GOC tapy cultures. uh you find um you find that almost all. of it comes after the beginning of the. younger dras not before the beginning of. the younger dras there is an interesting. development at d malaha uh in uh in in. Israel also called aan where some kind. of geometric plan seems to have been put. into place um but uh the bulk of the.

work the bulk of the the I hate to use. the word that archaeologists dislike a. Neolithic Revolution but the bulk of the. Revolution took place after the younger. drar um so that's why you think it's. evidence of a transfer yes I do except. that the fact that there's no. domesticated plants or animals GOC tape. so if there's a transfer of knowledge. why are they not transferring. agriculture well there was actually. there was actually agriculture in um Abu. Herrera for example not goe Abu herera.

is aian site that was occupied before. goeke would you find agriculture around. notredam yeah we have it was a sacred. site goly tapy was a sacred site and we. know that they're hunting gazel by the. thousands in harvesting wild plants this. has been published ad nauseum by people. like Laura Dietrich who have talked. about the kind of plants that they're. harvesting and the but was it possible. that they just didn't bring food to this. area because it was a sacred site for. ceremony and ritual and perhaps not at. all for to be for people to live in no.

it seems more like they were there about. half of the year so they're there during. the warm months if you look at the. harvesting season from the plant remains. we have and then the wild plants that. are gathered and then if you look at the. isotope evidence and the mortality. profile from the teeth of the animals. that they're slaughtering we see that. they're there basically during the warm. 6 months of the year so this is still. but not at gockley at gockley I'm. talking about yeah for about 6 months. out of the year that's when people are. there harvesting these and so I sort of. say they found an ecological niche and.

they've learned how to exploit this and. to sort of stay there for half the year. they probably went to the lowlands. during the other half of the year which. is a fairly common mobile pastoral or. hunter gatherer strategy which is where. you move to where the food is in. different seasons right and so that area. is a very naturally uh abundant area. during the warm months and so you know. there's so much more that's under. excavation right now by Lee Clair and. other colleagues that shows sort of. domestic spaces around this ceremonial.

Center that we have I sort of think of. it as like Washington DC we have the. ceremonial Center in downtown and then. we have the less nicel looking areas. outside is it possible that there was a. sophisticated culture that also was. hunter gatherers because the resources. were so rich that they didn't need. agriculture yeah I think that's what. we're seeing in this period is sort of. there was no need to there was no need. to grow plants because think they found. a successful Niche and they really. exploited it and did a great job with it.

and so I think that that's what's going. on right in this period and it's also. the period where we can start to see the. int the the start of domestication and. so do you think that that also explains. the resources that were required to. build such immense stone structures that. they had the time to do this because. they had abundant food yeah they had. abundant food 6 months out of the year. and while they're there they they had. the time to build those kind of. structures exactly they were they the. first of those kinds of structures you. think that were well the I I mean that's. a tough question to ask so I mean we. certainly have t-shaped pillars from. other sites in the region in fact there.

were some that were found by CLA Schmidt. before he found gockley teepe at navali. chori and she's a younger site H navali. chori is a younger site it is a younger. site and so I think there's there's more. invest but the what we do have is good. Monumental architecture from that period. that we've known about for 60 years if. you go to tell us suan or Jericho. there's a prey Neolithic Tower there and. so it's an enormous not megalithic but. enormous Monumental structure that we've. known about in that area from the exact.

same period And so this is Prem. metalurgy this is this is all Prem. metery pre whe Yeah well yeah probably. pre- whe and where are they getting. these stones from from the area most of. them seem to be local the quaries at. quec lie are right nearby and how do you. think they mov those things you you know. there's so many different ways to move. large Stones there's been so many. different experiments that show with. rollers or ropes you can get enough. people in know how levers and you can do. that and so you know there's so many. videos on YouTube of Wally Wallington.

and others that show you how you can. move Stones weighing many many many tons. I don't think there's any mystery around. the moving of the stones yeah I I and. and I don't claim that there is I I I. think what's intriguing I go back like. tappy but there certainly is in Egypt. what yes Egypt's a bigger mystery and we. can go into that show us how what but. what uh what intrigues me about gocke is. the Precision the underlying geometrical. plan of the site uh and the astronomical. alignments of gobec tee uh and I think.

that um the the transfer of technology. that I refer to did take place it took. place gradually uh there's um a site. called tal caramal you you've spoken of. Jericho the Tower of Jericho is. fascinating it's a sort of Neolithic. skyscraper in a way um but it's after. the younger drers there's T caramel. which has got five Towers um CTIC. Tepe bonara Abu H Herrera Abu hrera is a. fascinating site and it was hit by an.

air burst uh according to the team. working on the younger dras impact. hypothesis Abu Herrera the destruction. of Abu Herrera took place because one of. those Comet fragments 12,800 plus years. ago exploded over Abu Herrera with. within 100 or 200 miles of. um is certainly a controversial point I. don't I'm not an expert on this. particular topic but I know a lot of. people that are that believe that the. evidence is not there for the younger. dest impact hypothesis yeah there's a.

huge dispute going on about it it's it's. an specialty though but interesting. discussion in science I would like to. say that that destruction is an. archaeologist best friend so when sort. of a site is destroyed suddenly from. earthquakes from volcanoes from Warfare. from fire it actually helps preserve. material for us and so you know if there. is this kind of global catastrophe that. should make things more preserved and. easier for archaeologists to find but. isn't that dependent upon the scale of. the catastrophe well no because even. like it's not going to be what.

incineration everywhere because we still. have Hunter gather evidence everywhere. right so but it could be incineration in. a lot of places and the hunter gather. evidence that you have is after the fact. no the hunter gather evidence we have is. from well before the fact as well as. well yeah we have Hunter gather evidence. going back hundred thousands of years. right but you look at have you seen the. evidence of the younger dras impact. theory in terms of like aridium levels. Nano diamonds I'm not someone who's. qualified to be able to comment on that. I'm more thinking about it from an. archaeological point of view which is.

that if there was a destruction just. like with Pompei or herculanum with the. pyroclastic flow that stuff helps. preserve material for us same thing with. earthquakes knocking over. buildings an atom bomb preserved. material for us yes because the atom. bomb the very center of it might. vaporize stuff but then the whole area. that gets abandoned afterwards because. of the radiation that actually is going. to make that area an archaeological. Paradise for people once that radiation. goes away but if Randle Carlson's work. on the impact to what was the ice that.

was covering North America in one small. landscape what do you mean meaning he. talks about it in the scab lands right. not just the scab lands he talks about. that but he also just talks about that. there's massive evidence of intense. erosion so very quick waterfall water. flow that happened through an area that. was absolutely devastating I mean look. so the the more rapid a destruction is. the better it preserves for us just like. with sea level rise right but depending.

upon how strong the force is. right if it's a global catastrophe how. is it so strong everywhere yet it's not. wiping out our evidence from hunter. gatherers at this exact same time we. have ephemeral traces Footprints. campgrounds fires and hearths we have. lith human beings did survive right yeah. but we have it from this exact same. period right but human beings did. survive at that same perod and it didn't. wipe out the traces of them from that. period but the traces you're talking. about are stone tools and hearths.

Footprints things like that that are. extremely Emeral animal bones and seeds. we have all of these things from the. period around this supposed destruction. but do you have them in the area where. the supposed destruction Ur we don't. know where the supposed destruction. happened because nobody's ever found. that but with Randle Carlson's descript. of these massive floods of water just. hundreds of millions of pounds of water. well let's go to J Holland Brett's long. before Rand Carson I mean the channel. scap lands are an enigma uh the massive. water flows I don't think anybody's.

disputing that massive amounts of water. flow through there it's a question of. exactly when that happened and why it. happed also what would be left over in. that area there's not evidence of hunter. gatherers in that area from that well I. remember he showed when he was here last. he showed sort of Mammoth Bones from. that kind of period no that was from. Siberia though wasn't it was it from. Siberia or I don't remember but. it was from the channel scablands but. let's let's cut to the chase here 12,800. between 12,900 and 12,800 years ago a.

very dramatic climate episode occurred. and that's called the younger drers um. the world had been gradually warming up. before that uh and then suddenly it went. very very cold there is evidence of a 6. meter sea level rise at exactly that. time which is very hard to explain um. but it looks like the suggestion is that. that was due to impacts on the ice cap. on the North American ice cap and. perhaps on the European ice cap the. evidence for the younger Drass impact is.

found in what are called impact proxies. and that's iridium nanodiamonds Platinum. melt glass like trinitite uh found in. sites across a vast area of the Earth's. surface uh 50 million plus square. kilometers an enormous an enormous area. Abu Herrera next to gbec lppi happens to. be one of those areas and what they're. suggesting is that a fragment of a comet. blew up in the sky that it was an. airburst exactly the same thing that.

happened over tunguska uh in Siberia on. the 30th of June. 198 that was an an object that fell out. of the sky almost certainly out of the. torid meteor stream which is thought to. be the progenitor of the the the remnant. giant Comet uh because that's the peak. of the beta TDS it wasn't big enough to. hit the earth and create a crater it. blew up in the sky when it blew up in. the sky fortunately over an uninhabited. area of Siberia it flattened 2,000. square miles of trees it was absolutely.

catastrophic if it had no there is. evidence for there is evidence for that. compelling evidence there's not no Vance. holiday and his colleagues just. published a huge reputation of this. entire hypothesis of the what do they. thinking about you're talking about I'm. sorry calling something a reputation. doesn't mean it's a reput no but it. still has not been replied to that's. currently the it has been replied to. extensively by Martin swatman but are. you are you referring to Abu herrer you. referring to I'm referring to the entire. idea of the younger D impact hypothesis.

right but Tusa you're not you're not no. I'm not debating tongus that's what you. were saying okay you misheard him he was. talking about the amount of forest that. was flattened by the tongus I Mard him I. thought he was talking about it did. happen during the tour at meteor shower. I yeah I guess it happened what recently. like 100 years ago or. something but it did happen during the. same time of the year where the Earth. passes through okay yeah I'm not I'm not. debating Tong okay that that was what it. seemed like you saying I I think this.

would be a good moment for me to just. give a little bit of information about. the younger dras impact hypothesis can. we can we do that because it's very. important to to my feelings about all of. this um and uh God these short sight I. tell you being 73 is no. joke um yeah so the younger dras impact. hypothesis um since. 2017 uh it's been a compelling and. thoroughly documented case it's been put.

together by more than 60 eminent. scientists of course some scientists. oppose them as well was hit 12,800 Years. Ago by multiple fragments of a. disintegrating Comet U Mark boso is one. of the authors of that reputation piece. that you've just put in uh here he is. saying that Graham Hancock's use of the. impact hypothesis in Netflix is all wet. uh here we have a post responding to. that Graham hanock is a charlatan and a. fraud uh younger dras impact hypothesis.

is widely debunked I'm sorry it's not if. you want to learn about the work done go. go see Mark boso here's that paper. you're talking about Flint the. comprehensive reputation of the younger. dras hypothesis because something is. called something does not mean it is. something have you read it it's fairly. detail I have read it in great detail. and I've also read James Lawrence Powell. who the authors of this paper largely. ignore uh but who who is a highly. respected figure and who in in whose. view the younger dras impact hypothesis. has been prematurely uh.

rejected um Bill Napier is a member of. the Comet research group he's the person. who's connected it to the torrid meteor. stream uh he's talking about the. evidence of a large comet about entering. the inner solar system about 20,000. years ago going into fragment ation. creating a wide debris Trail through. which the Earth passes twice a year um. and it's a cast catastrophe of celestial. origin which occurred around 12,900 BC. that BP before the president now um.

you're referring to a refutation paper. but would you really uh so quickly. accept it when you look at the. credentials of the people in the comet. research I mean James kennet marine. geologist professor at the University of. California he's a world expert in pale. oceanography Dr Richard James whiter. Albert goodier Alan West there I am with. Alan West at the younger dras boundary. uh in in Murray Springs and the younger. dras boundary is full of the signatures.

of a massive Cosmic impact probably an. air burst rather like the airburst that. took place over Abu Herrera I'm not. expecting anybody to read these papers. I'm putting up here I'm just saying that. the younger dras impact hypothesis has. been widely published extensively. published over the last decade that. there's a huge amount of information in. support of it there we're looking at the. younger dras boundary field extending on. the right as far as Abu hrera and on the. left covering most of North America it. also it's also found in Belgium by the. way uh it's found in the deep south of.

Chile it's found in Antarctica uh it's. found uh all over the world um and uh. this Platinum anomaly documented at the. younger drer onset is is particularly. important but the evidence of a cosmic. impact at Abu Herrera that one I mean we. know that Michael Shermer is um is an. opponent of my work uh but even Michael. sh Michael Shermer in my view by the way. I want to thank Michael for this a true. gentleman uh when he realizes he's got. something wrong he says so and here he.

says in the light of the work at at Abu. Herrera he says he's going to address. his priors in in in the about my theory. in in Rel in the light of this evidence. from a massive Cosmic impact over Abu. hrera uh so uh the fact that a paper has. been published which claims to refute. the younger dras impact uh is really not. uh anything at all the question is. what's the depth to that reputation is. it a solid reputation does it really. work and why is it that the same team. who claimed to have refuted the younger.

dras impact hypothesis in 2023 also. published a requim for the younger dras. impact hypothesis in 2011 clearly there. was something wrong with their 2011. requim I am not a scholar that focuses. on these kind of questions I focus on. archa logical evidence so I'm going to. try to reply from that perspective and. so one of the examples you give is if. this is Abu Herrera for example the site. is still there for us to excavate we. understand that it has some of the. earliest domesticated crops there and so.

the entire point is is that this kind of. even if this hypothesis is true it would. not have wiped out the evidence for the. civilization that you're looking for. because we can see very clearly that if. it's true at Auber Herrera it did not. wipe out the entire settlement it's. there where Excavating it now isn't Abu. Herrera one of the first places that. show evidence of real agriculture yeah. so let's talk about some real part of. the evidence I'm talking can we talk. about some agriculture sure sure all. right cool um can you boot up my HD.

excited yeah this is like my stuff. finally I did my dad's stuff earlier now. I get to do some of my stuff in fact. this is some of the sites I work on um. so okay I want to be clear that we have. a lot of evidence for ancient plants and. seeds right we have I'll show you the. statistics we have hundreds of thousands. millions of these just from the time. period of thinking about domestication. so how do we even collect tiny little. seeds of grains and beans and peas any. idea Joe no okay so you know how wood.

floats so does carbonized plant material. so basically we collect samples from. every single unit that we excavate and. we put it in what's called a flotation. tank where we pump up a a bunch of air. to separate any charred plant material. from the soil in the sediment and then. it sort of drains out right around here. into a mesh and then we can start to. study it under a microscope um so all. right big question what the heck is the. difference between wild and domesticated. wheat any ideas no no Graham uh yes the.

domesticated wheat depends on human. beings helping it to continue and how do. we identify that not quite sure okay. that's important though so all right. let's go to the bottom here it's the. scar right where that wheat kernel or. the the the spikelet that the wheat seed. is attached on it attaches to the plant. and the reason for this is in wild. plants like Wheats or beans or peas it's. going to propagate Itself by falling off. the plant easily if birds or humans are. harvesting it it it it's not that it.

wants to it doesn't have agency but it. propagates itself more easily by by. shattering easily off of the stem of the. plant on the other hand as soon as. humans start Gathering it that does. nothing because some seeds fall it. replants itself in the field but as soon. as humans start Gathering it and. planting it in new Fields then all of a. sudden there's an evolutionary sort of. impact on the plant itself and so what's. selected for is the mutation for a seed. that hangs onto the plant do you see. what I mean because you're cutting off.

the plant taking it with you and then. planting it somewhere else and so this. is a shift in grains that we call a. brittle to a tough rockus and you can. see it's kind of a clean scar right here. on the left and wild wheat while it's a. much sort of tougher scar on the right. do we know what the evolution mechanism. is that would cause it to do that yeah. so there's two different genes that. actually control this in wheat for. example and so we actually know just. statistically speaking and and by. sampling wild wheat today that this is.

this is going to exist within any field. of wild wheat there's going to be a few. seeds with this genetic uh mutation and. then as soon as humans start collecting. it and cultivating it planting it. somewhere it's going to automatically. put evolutionary pressure on that and. and and it's overtime and we see this. shift from shattering to nonshattering. in barley in wheat in rice in every. single grain species that we have. domesticated and so you can see this. statistically for example in China where.

over time a we have 35,000 of these now. that we're studying B you can see the. population of rice at archaeological. sites it starts off mostly As brittle. meaning it shatters easily and over time. it takes about 1,500 years for rice to. evolve to become fully domesticated. where it hangs onto the plant more. easily and so we see this repeatedly we. could see this later on in the Hol scene. so we're talking several thousand years. later like 5,000 years ago in sort of.

the Sahara Desert during the green. Sahara periods where we see the. domestication of pearl Millet same exact. transition is what happens um and you. can see these statistics of it happening. changing statistically over time the. population of milet in these regions. from you know a a brittle rockus that. breaks off easily to a tough rockus. where the seed hangs on um how does it. figure out that it's just yeah it's just. that it's just selection pressure it's. the pressure of humans now collecting it.

and then planting it so as soon as. there's one seed that's like that with. that mutation it slowly proliferates. every single time humans replanted in a. new field and it just takes yeah it just. takes thousands of years yeah and we see. this in wheat barley rice oats teos. Cente which becomes corn we see it in. sorghum we see it with the pods for. beans and peas so the Pod changes how it. breaks off the plant and again it goes. from shattering to tough and so we see. that with lentils chickpeas peas common. beans runner beans soybeans fava vetch.

all of these species dozens of them it's. the first sign of human domestication. and so that's what we can see the second. sign is actually how many I'm sorry how. many thousands of years does it take. before this starts showing something. well it starts showing up fairly quickly. immediately so you get small percentages. of it for example you can see this with. the rice graph here with all of them so. at Abu Herrera for example it's a small. percentage of the crops that are. actually have this feature today so. looks like just 150 years it starts. changing yeah it slowly starts changing.

over in fact Gordon Hillman first worked. out this would happen really rapidly. that it would take just a few hundred. years for the population of these plants. to change over now we know it takes a. few thousand years for it to fully the. full population at archaeological sites. to go from Wild breaking off easy types. to domesticated hanging on to the plant. types that is fascinating yeah it just. it's fascinating how the plant somehow. or another adapts and figures it out. that this is the way to survive it's. really cool cuz it's not human selection.

either in fact 40 years ago when we. first started studying domestication we. thought that all this was due to. conscious human selection and now we. know that it's actually the plant. adapting to us and what we do yeah it's. cool as hell isn't it I agree with you. on all of that I don't want to stop you. with your presentation but how does that. what bearing does that have on getting. rid of A Lost Civilization I'm going to. get there like again it's not about. getting rid of A Lost Civilization I'm. actually here to show that there's no. agriculture at all in the Ice Age not. doesn't have to do with the Lost.

Civilization but that's a key component. of your civilization so the second TR. there's no agriculture at all amongst. the Inu either right no no right but. they survived but in his books and in. his Netflix series he describes this. civilization as introducing agriculture. he talks about seed banks and things. like that. oh yeah in The Magicians of the Gods I. have a quote in here show me okay you. want me to yeah yeah let's see it I want. to see it give me a. second it seems fanciful to a you want. to use it I don't I can't do your accent.

you want to read. it it seems fful to imagine that we. might in an almost Hightech sense be. looking at the specifications of a seed. bank here oh this is from Fingerprints. of the Gods no it's from magicians of. the Gods oh maybe I repeated it in. magicians um and this is about the. underground Vara that yima uh is said in. myth to have created following a a. disastrous um following a a disastrous. cataclysm um but is it possible that. this cycle of domesticating Wheat and.

beans and all these different things has. taken place many many times and that if. you left them alone they would go back. to the wild form where if they're like. if there was a disaster and people. stopped growing them in this particular. region how long would it take for them. to revert back to their original. thousand of years thousand of years. thousands of years how many thousands of. years you think well I don't know. because we I mean we've I'd have to look. that up because I know that we've. observed this kind of stuff feral uh. domesticates going feral but I don't. have that off and you said how many. years from the original till the whole.

CR something like 3,000 years Dorian. Fuller's actually published a lot on. estimating the time ranges of this so if. you had agriculture in. 12,800 years ago uh around the time of. the younger D's impact Theory and then. people are resorted to hunter gatherers. again takes a long time before they. start using agriculture again is it what. he's claiming he's claiming that I know. but I'm asking is it possible that those. plants would revert and then the process. would happen again once people started. growing them intentionally that's tough.

to tell cuz what we see is it's exactly. at that time at least in Southwest Asia. where this domestication starts we. haven't seen the reverse happen no no no. but is it possible well I mean it would. have had to have happened a lot earlier. if you see if people weren't cultivating. it anymore wouldn't the natural. selection revert back to it would I. agree with that it would revert back but. it would take a long time it would take. a long time and so I want to get into. how the next trait size takes thousands. of years after that which is the. selection for large seeds so we measure. these seeds and we can see their change.

over time and I have here a really cool. is this a selection by farmers and by. people that are that's such a great. question because actually we think at. first it's not so this is the plants. adapting to the fact that they're being. planted in plowed and tilled and cleared. fields and so larg. no larger seeds actually grow faster so. they out compete their neighbors that. might have been planted with smaller. seeds oh because it's monocrop because. they're constantly surrounded by other. plants that are similar and so they're. competing for resources they're. competing for resources and the ones.

with larger seeds on average grow so a. lot this is done from a lot of. experimental archaeology that is so wild. glennis Jones Dorian Fuller and others. glennis Jones at Sheffield who's retired. now has taught me this that is so the. the just the fact I mean I know we're in. the middle of this crazy debate but just. just the one. of nature itself the the complexity. involved in these natural life forms. adapting to their environment is so. fascinating and the fact that it's it's. such a contentious issue amongst. biological creatures specifically human.

beings because of religious implications. but if you just look at it in terms of. what we know for sure with plants it is. such a bizarre bizarre process it's so. fascinating and complex and there's so. much going on and just with our. understanding of the communication that. plants have with each other through. melium and through the the the different. organisms that exist in the earth and. that they're sharing resources and like. what a bizarre fascinating World almost.

mysterious there's a lot to learn so. mysterious well there's a lot to learn. for sure but I think that's what's cool. cuz we have this kind of stuff so you. asked about selection um so this is a. maze cob from about 1250 ad this is part. of the Southern Methodist University. archaological how little they were back. then little they were so if you want to. hold it you can sure yeah Chuck it over. here care how old is this that's uh from. about 800 years ago wow yeah and so I. want to thank full piece ofn yeah folks.

this is like a thumb not even my. thumb it's like it's like one of my. smaller fingers and just to get a crazy. like they think of a corn cob today just. I mean I had one over Thanksgiving it. was massive it was like this big exactly. that's human selection at that point. crazy that's amazing and to give you a. sense of just how much we find this is. our. charred corn. kernels again from Southern Methodist. University and how old are these so this.

they're not exactly sure where they come. from they think they're subsampled from. collections at Pop Creek Pueblo in New. Mexico so several hundred years old for. sure they're so little but yeah they. were collected a long time ago so. they're not sure yeah the colonels are. so tiny are these like dehydrated. they're charred they're charred right. but would they be larger yeah they. probably would have been larger so we we. study how charring impacts these things. as well yeah so we do a lot of. experiments to understand that so that. we can see the shape and the size and. stuff like that yeah that so.

cool so to to get back to your question. though because I think you you asked a. good question when we think about sort. of this change over time with. domestication we also see a change in. time in the kind of stone tools that. people are using so it takes thousands. of years before we start seeing these. sickle type blades assoc assciated with. harvesting these crops right and then. the next step we can take is this. introduction this sort of transfer of. technology that agriculturalists do when. they move into Europe and elsewhere and. we can track this in real time so this.

is from a project the very I was. actually doing the flotation to collect. the plants from this project when I was. a student and this is in Albania um. directed by University of Cincinnati so. these are the trenches that we excavated. but this is one of the earliest. agricultural sites in Europe from about. 6,400 BC right right and what's really. cool is we can see what this kind of. introduction looks like we see a full. package introduced at the same time we. see multiple different domesticated. plants multiple different domesticated. animals as well as new types of.

artifacts like stone tools and pottery. of different types then what the hunter. gatherers were using there and so this. is kind of a parallel this is where we. see this transfer of technology is when. agriculturalists spread out and they. take a whole package with them we call. it the Neolithic package right and so. that's one of the key is we have. Parallels for this and so when we go. back to this sort of end of the Stone. Age type period where we're maybe. looking for something like a seed bank. or a shelter that's that's keeping these. Noah's ark or something like that what. we can also look at is it doesn't look.

like anything's introduced these plants. and animals get domesticated in the. natural regions where their wild. progenitors were growing and and living. and so there's not like an introduction. of a new species that was not there. instead we already saw these wild plants. in place in the ice age in these spaces. and then we see we can date directly. these with radiocarbon right the there's. no reason to assume anything else we. date plant remains and Bones directly um.

and then lastly I just want to talk. about not archaeological evidence but. paleoecological evidence so these are. kind of cores taken in Lakes lagoons. swamps on on the sea floor and this is. what a penologist so those are people. that study pollen. look at and so this map is from an. article that I was actually a co-author. on looking at different paleoecological. proxies around the Greek Peninsula so. we're looking is that a real image of. pollen yeah this is this is pollen under. an electron microscope um from Dartmouth.

College I think it is this image and uh. and so you know we have these kind of. cores that give us a sense of the. landscape and you know we can track for. example the rise of different. agricultural societies from pollen that. floats through the air we can track for. example tree s when they start getting. introduced and when they become common. we can track grains and when they come. in and become very common in these. different regions and the key thing I. want to draw your attention to is a lot. of these proxies these cores are taken. from coastal areas and some are even.

taken from underwater so we have. underwater cores from the seabed and we. can reconstruct these sunken Landscapes. and the sort of uh ecosystem that was. there and nowhere do we see an ecosystem. of Agriculture or boric culture or. anything like that instead we see very. natural landscapes the type of. Landscapes that hunter gatherers would. live in and so this I think is really. important because there really is it's. it's not just that there's evid no. evidence for agriculture that early we. have evidence against it from those.

pollen cores but also this article by. Peter Richardson and colleagues points. out that agriculture it was it was. probably too hostile of a condition for. agriculture in the Ice Age the reason. why is because there's too little CO2. plants need carbon dioxide um to be able. to propagate and grow and be be grown. intensively in particular it's also a. period of aridity it's very dry because. so much of the freshwat is trapped at. the at the poles in in the ice sheets. but this is not the case of the Amazon.

right and the Equator the environment. would be different but we have pollen. cores from those areas and again we have. no evidence of any kind of intensive. agriculture those vastly understudied. areas I I never uh but they are vastly. underst understanded right. imagine that a pollen core is actually. tracking a larger landscape right. because pollen travels really far and so. you're able to with one core track a. much larger landscape and put that. together and so you know I I just cannot. emphasize this enough we need to I have.

a phrase I like to use about archaeology. it's we work from the known to the. unknown so this is true when we excavate. we we we come down on the stub of a wall. and we change what we're doing to follow. what we know which is that wall and we. expose it when we found the Griffin. Warrior to MOS for example we found the. corner on the very first day and by the. third day we already expanded the trench. so that we could catch what we know is. there and so it's the same kind of thing. when you dig a layer it's the same thing. when you sort of test a hypothesis like. Grahams which is we want to work from.

what we do know what we do know from the. Ice Age and what we do know from right. after this period of domestication and. so what we do know is all this kind of. natural evidence about the climate about. the ecology and about how domestication. actually happens and so that's why I. think that unlike the other part with. the Ice Age sort of coastal stuff I. think that's sort of like why do we keep. finding tens of thousands of Ice Age. sites that are hunter gatherers it's a. bit of a coincidence we don't find your. civilization here it's not tens of.

thousands it's 3,000 sites that's not. true we have 13,000 different sites in. the Paleolithic radiocarbon database no. no I'm talking about underwater okay but. we have 3 million shipwrecks that have. been mapped not relevant according to. UNESCO and they're on the Continental. shelves can I can I pick up on some. points you've made or you've not quite. finished yet sure you can pick up. Grim I don't ever claim that uh the very. small numbers of survivors of my. proposed Lost Civilization introduced. plant.

species what I'm saying is that they. introduced the concept of domesticating. plants there is evidence of uh of of. early very early agriculture more than. 20,000 years ago at AAL gather gatherers. yeah of a. they weren't it wasn't it never it never. reached the stage of domestication yeah. uh they Gathering not planting that that. goes back 23 what 24,000 years ago they. gathered but they did not domesticate. and there are a number of attempts at. domestication but it's after the younger.

dryers that we see this sudden surge in. domestication now I'm not saying and. I've never said and you will not be able. to find a quote where I've said that. they introduced agriculture they. introduced the idea of Agriculture and. we're talking about a very small number. of people the the speak of seven sages. again and again in multiple locations. around the world uh bringing the idea of. Agriculture but the agriculture is then. applied to locally available plant. species and we do then see the long. process of domestication beginning after.

the younger dryers not before it we we. don't see that investig that that. domestication occurring before 12,900. years ago we see some attempts at. Gathering crops we see some sheen on. sickles that show that people were. cutting wild grasses and using the we do. see we do see all of that but we don't. see domestication the the steps that. begin to lead us towards domestication. begin after the younger drar and I think. that's the elephant in the room I think. that what happened there during the. younger dras is extremely mysterious and.

I don't think we have the whole story. and I'm simply proposing that the. survivors of a civilization Who had who. were in very small numbers traveled. around the world seeking Refuge sharing. their knowledge with those they sh took. Refuge amongst and sharing the knowledge. of those they took Refuge amongst they. it was an exchange not a one-way not a. oneway trip and they did not bring bring. plants and seeds with them they worked. with what was locally available and. that's precisely what we see happening. after 12,900 years ago in this whole.

area of hundreds thousands of square. miles around gockley tee going right. down into the Jordan Valley uh Abu. Herrera being a particularly interesting. example very close to GOC tee is the. first steps being taken towards. domestication there had been multiple. attempts to harvest Wild Grains before. that but no domestication suddenly we. see the domestication happening and of. course it's happening with locally. available plants I've never said that. they introduced plant species from. elsewhere but if they're introducing the. technology of Agriculture that would.

imply that they had agriculture. beforehand which as I'm trying to show. does not it doesn't make any sense you. need to invent new species of plants you. need to go against all the evidence that. we have what new species of plants why. do you need to well because they they. were using they were using wild grasses. in in in the area of hollow 2 in the. Jordan Valley they were using them 23. 23,000 area of those wild plants but. they did not domesticate them but then. what was your civilization growing I. don't know what I do know is it's very I.

have I don't know what what what do you. not understand about the word lost I. don't I don't know what they were. growing but what I'm mystified by is. this sudden surge towards domestication. which you rightly say is a long slow. process it doesn't it doesn't happen. overnight it takes it takes a long time. but we see those first steps being taken. after not before the younger drar and. that's where sudden we're talking about. thousands of years when agriculture. starts in different places so you know. it's it's very early in Southwest Asia.

but it's it's a thousand or plus year. lag in East Asia or meso America so when. when when people say suddenly I think. that that's a misinterpretation of the. evidence in terms of human Generations. talking hundreds of human Generations. I'm referring to sudden. is the transition from harvesting wild. grasses to setting in process a project. that will lead to domestication of wild. grasses and that cannot be demonstrated. before the younger dryers it can only be. demonstrated after the younger dryers.

it's not a project it's just planting. them in the ground and that's why and. that's why I think that there's. something odd about the younger dras. episode and to me that's something odd. when I combine it with mythology from. all around the world about the. destruction of a great civilization in a. global. cataclysm about the fact that there were. a few survivors about the suggestion. that they traveled around the world. sharing their knowledge and ideas uh. that's why I think that this that the. spark for the Agricultural Revolution. that we say we we see in that area was.

introduced not the agriculture itself. not the plants themselves they used. locally available plants they'd be doed. but to play Devil's Advocate if they did. do that wouldn't it would immediately. show up as agriculture no would why. would it take thousand thousands of. years for it to take hold because it. takes a long time to domesticate plants. as Flint has been saying it's not. something but you see the shift starting. immediately you see the shift in 150. years and you see and you see it. immediately at Abu Herrera yes and then.

elsewhere not as early but it but is it. also possible that the younger gyus. impact Theory affected the climate and. it made agriculture more possible and. then they figured it out after that. because it was colder before that right. yeah we've had lots of cold periods in. the past if you go back through the ice. age 400,000 years or so right different. that's a different species of human. almost they had 400,000 years ago, years. ago but but they hadn't figured out. anything that we the the earliest.

evidence so far for anatomically modern. humans is from Jeb Hood in Morocco it's. about. 320,000 years old 315,000 years old. something like that anatomically modern. humans um so I think makes sense but. they hadn't but my point is they hadn't. figured out anything that we figured out. so wouldn't it make sense that at one. point in time the human species would. figure out Agriculture and if that that. transition would take place for over a.

period of thousands of years after a. massive shift in the climate the mystery. to me is why during the previous massive. shifts in the climate that took place. multiple times over the 400,000 years. because humans hadn't evolved to do any. of the things that they evolved to do. eventually build structures dams you. know boats seaf fairing all those things. took place afterwards right so there has. to be a timeline for all Innovation. anyway I'm responding to your point was. was the climate shift the trigger for. for for agriculture it had to be the.

trigger for something right say whenever. there's a massive change in the. environment people adapt to that change. and if you look at the sophistication. levels of societies over the course of. hundreds of thousands of years they. always move towards a more sophisticated. they figure out new ways new methods. they get better at things it just makes. sense that they would eventually figure. out agriculture in this area there were. multiple attempts to figure out. agriculture there was also probably. multiple attempts to figure out how to.

make a boat before they figured out how. to make a submarine yes that's I mean so. I tend to think that what we see with. our record is it's very heterogeneous so. that's why we see agriculture showing up. at different times in different places. um and so I think that that's really key. to get across I do think this uh. climatic change it and introduced more. CO2 it introduced more um humidity and. and rainfall that and made agriculture. actually possible sort of as an. intensive undertaking to do and so I. think that that's really important to.

acknowledge but I don't want to sort of. uh say that human agency didn't have. something to do with that because humans. were the ones that chose to change from. just Gathering to planting and so I. think that's really really key to. demonstrate I want to get to Egypt. because I think it's one of the most. bizarre accomplishments of of human. beings and the age of Egypt is a a. fascinating piece of discussion because.

what whatever it is one one of the more. fascinating things is uh Robert shock. out of Boston University the geologist. who examined the erosion in the temple. of the Sphinx and determin it to be. thousands of years of rainfall and which. would predate the Sphinx by quite a bit. cuz this is all stone that had been. moved by human beings and it had been. used to construct the Sphinx and this. this Temple the Sphinx had been carved. out it's very clear that it was carved. out and you see these massive fissures.

that look exactly like water erosion he. specifically said that he showed uh. these images to uh other geologists. without telling them what they were. looking at and they they almost. unanimously said that it was water. erosion over thousands of years of. rainfall and then when he would show. them exactly what he was telling them to. describe then they didn't want to have. any part of it because it's like okay. now you're saying something that's. really crazy because now you're saying. that this structure is 11,000 years old. as opposed to you know 4,000 500 years.

old surprise surprise I'm going to. disagree with you shall we look at well. it's not. Meer should we look at some images of. the stins and and let's look at images. of the water erosion because it's and. then I'll show some images of the. quaries nearby let's do that yeah sure. um so if you could hook me up again. Jamie to the. HDMI and again uh credit to my wife. Santa who has taken every risk with me.

every step every dive for the last 30. plus years this is uh her aerial. photograph of the Sphinx enclosure and. of the Sphinx Temple how you get that. picture uh in a helicopter wow back in O. the mid90s somewhere Sphinx Temple uh. directly in front of the Sphinx socalled. and the valley Temple uh to the left as. we as as we view it and you can see that. the Sphinx is is a is a rocku structure. cut out of the Bedrock with a with with.

a trench uh around it um and if we go in. here um the the notion that the the. Sphinx was Bears the marks of. precipitation induced weathering is an. evolution of an idea that the late great. John Anthony West uh had many many years. ago you've had John on your show before. passed away a dear friend of mine he was. great he magical Egypt I can't recommend. enough it's such a fascinating. fascinating material he is two of them. two series uh I think there's like three. DVDs in each one and it's just.

incredible stuff just just on the. undisputable things about the. construction methods and how fascinating. it is that they built these things. marvelous out of the box thinker I miss. him so much he was a he was a dear. friend it was he who brought Robert. shock to the Giza Plateau um and and. Robert took a look at the erosion around. the Spinx and eventually came to the. conclusion that the best explanation for. it was that the this Sphinx enclosure. had been subjected to uh at least a. thousand years of extremely heavy.

rainfall and Robert shock right now puts. that back to around the 10,000 BC date. 12,000 plus years ago during the younger. dras when indeed there were heavy rains. uh in in in Egypt and it's these deep. iCal fishes in the side of the uh the. the enclosure wall which most clearly. demonstrate what he's talking about that. the rainwater pouring off the edge of. the plateau uh would have carved it. would have selectively cut out the.

softer areas of rock and created these. fishes that we see through it and and. this rounded scalloped profile in Robert. shock's View and in mine and I've had. Robert shock on as well we talked about. it for a long time and I want to pay. tribute to Robert shock here he and I. have had our differences but Robert. shock in my view is a hero Robert shock. is a mainstream academic who has stuck. his neck out for an idea that is very. unpopular with mainstream academics he's. taken all the risks for his career he's. put himself out there and he's spoken. his truth and I want to respect Robert.

shock I want to express that respect and. C us to Robert shock for everything he's. done he's helped to advance this field. enormously and to allow people to think. previously Unthinkable thoughts and I've. seen him attacked mercilessly. mercilessly mercilessly this happens. again and again with our geologists. unfortunately um that now I I'll just. complete this point because it's often. said that the Sphinx was the work of the. Pharaoh cafre uh and that these two. temples were the work of the Pharaoh. cafre particularly the valley Temple. that we see on the right there there's.

no inscriptions in the Sphinx Temple but. when we come to the valley Temple uh. what we're looking at is a limestone. core and those Limestone blocks were. actually taken out of the Sphinx trench. uh which was then faced in a later time. uh with granite uh and and there's a. quote from from from Robert shock there. um who's who's saying that the that. basically the the the temp the original. temples were Limestone and that they. were faced with granite now that's the.

interior of the temple you can see that. there's definitely two phases of instru. construction there there's the granite. no dispute that that's Old Kingdom Egypt. uh and then there's the Limestone. massive megalithic walls behind it which. are heavily eroded as you can see even. from here um now interestingly is that. Temple really associated with the pharoh. caffra in 1947 IES Edwards who was one. of the leading egyptologists of his time. uh wrote this around each doorway is a. band of hieroglyphic inscription giving.

the name and titles of the king no other. inscriptions or relief occur anywhere. else in the building that's been taken. to assume that the name of the King was. given as cafre actually Edwards. corrected himself in 1993 around each. doorway was carved a band of. hieroglyphic inscription giving them the. name and titles of the king but only the. last words beloved of the goddess bastet. and beloved of the Goddess hathor are. preserved no other inscriptions occur. anywhere else in the building in other. words there's nothing in that Temple. that directly connects it to uh the.

Pharaoh C but what's interesting is the. way that that Granite facing which. certainly was done in the Old Kingdom. has actually been the interior of the. Granite has actually been cut to match. the heavily weathered Limestone that. it's covering it's been cut to shape. that they're honoring and respecting. that ancient structure and so in my. opinion the geological evidence on the. Antiquity of the Sphinx is strong uh. there's no doubt that the ancient. Egyptians were there that they did work. on the Sphinx the the head of the Sphinx.

was recarved into a human head I and my. colleagues believe it was originally the. head of a lion that the Sphinx was an. entire lion uh but the evidence that. it's been carved is that it has far less. erosion than the rest of the body. correct and also the head is way out of. proportion to the rest of the body. that's a that's an issue because one. thing the ancient Egyptians were pretty. good at when they put their minds to it. was proportion yeah uh and and the. disproportionate size of the head of the. Spinx in relation to the whole body of. the Sphinx I mean if you look at other. ancient Egyptian sphinxes they also have. small heads if you put my head on a lion.

it would look small and they they they. all look relatively small indeed it. would look small um that's the point it. was a lion before and it was cut it was. heavily eroded and it was then cut down. into a human head but it does have a. distinctly different form of erosion no. oh that's actually where I come and. disagree with you I have some photos as. well what's your evidence that it was. connected to C the head oh yeah and I. can show you why it's a different it's a. different stratum of the natural. Limestone I see so if you look at the. geology of the area are you finished.

Graham if not I'll put up some slides um. yeah go ahead okay um yeah let's do this. so first off I want to sort of show this. is what it looks like even the neck you. don't see the neck today because it's. because they expanded the headdress as a. port for the head and so the point is is. that there's these different layers of. this of this Limestone here that we can. understand geologically and so there's. this very dense Limestone that's up by. the head and then the rest of the. limestone is is much more fragile and.

porous um so I do want to be clear how. do we date the Sphinx what kind of. evidence archaeologically are we using. and so what that comes from is largely. radiocarbon dates from the pyramids. themselves so pieces of wood that were. in the in between the blocks of the. pyramids have been radiocarbon dated and. definitively tell us that the the. pyramids were built during the Old. Kingdom right but didn't they do work on. the pyramids at multiple stages where. they would probably like reseal things. and surface things and clean things if.

they were constructed 12 13 20,000 years. ago and people were still inhabiting. them 5,000 years ago wouldn't it make. sense that they would do things to them. well we have inscriptions in there from. areas that are sealed off from the. actual construction Graff from the. workmen referring to for example friends. of kufu and different workmen gangs that. are in there and these are in areas. graffiti like they yeah yeah they tag it. exactly you know that that particular. graffiti in the kufu katou has long been. suggested as a forgery by Howard V.

except it uses versions of kufu name. that were not known until later by by. Scholars and so that's that's what. versions are those I don't know man I. don't read hieroglyphs I read. egyptologist where' you get that. information um I got no not from zah. I've never met zah I got that. information from Reading man um but okay. so let's go back how do we know that. these radiocarbon dates with the blocks. in the pyramid relate to the Sphinx. itself because the Sphinx is just H out.

of Natural Stone right these different. layers here so the reason we know is. because uh geochemists have done Stone. sourcing on the the chemistry of these. stones in the pyramids and they've been. able to trace them to different quar at. Giza and so this is photos of different. quaries and cuttings for the quaries and. so they've taken samples from the. quaries themselves and from the stones. in the pyramids they do uh different. kinds of geochemical analyses to show. the ratios of in this case magnesium and.

iron um and then they trace them back to. specific quaries there and so they know. that a bunch of the stones from coffay. for example come from the area of the. Sphinx the Sphinx is from a quarry it's. a quarry site for those stones and so. one of the things go back to that slide. for a second. yeah we're cut into the quy. walls okay and so this is a photo of. some of these quaries and I want to. point out that the the Quarry walls look.

a lot like exactly the walls of the. Sphinx itself it has the same kind of. erosion on it it has the same kind of. rough working on it and so what you're. actually seeing with the Sphinx is. you're seeing this roughened shape from. quaring which is then built with nicer. Stones around it right but we're talking. about the temple the Sphinx the outside. structure is what Robert shock was. discussing that that shows much more. clear indication of the water erosion. not not necessarily this which shows a. lot of kind of different erosion and by. the way this restoration on the pors of.

the Sphinx is modern yes that is modern. I'm not going to deny that but what I'm. trying to explain to you is that we. can't a I don't think that anybody. really agrees with shock that it is. erosion B if it is erosion D well a lot. of GE just do not n many geologist do. many Geist do agree with them very few I. think it's quite a bit grah you would. know more than I do I think it's quite a. bit too but it doesn't really matter to. me I think I think whe whether. geologists agree with him or not whether. archaeologists agree with him or not.

he's spoken his truth he's made his case. and I think it's a strong and compelling. case and what I'm trying to do is. present the evidence that goes against. him right but but when you look at those. fissures that are in that wall you see. the same thing on quaries there you know. it's the same exact kind of fissures on. this is just a completely different. Quarry and a different that's not the. most specific example of it though if. you show other examples of that wall and. so I mean there's other examples of that. wall that are much more rounded out so I. have been to G by the way see this disc. doesn't look the same to me wait but I.

have a reason for saying that I've been. to Giza the one time I went to Giza it. rained MH in fact the the taxi got into. an accident cuz the oil on the on the. road got so slick that we were hit from. behind right it does very minor fender. bender but the point you're not denying. theate radically changed how you date. erosion like this that takes a lot of. experimentation and I've seen no. evidence that shows how to date this. kind of erosion to 12,000 years ago or. something like that are you in control. of the thing now as that I am and I was. going to show can you show images from.

what you were looking at when it it. shows the water erosion cuz it's sure. it's it looks very different the the. images that Graham was showing from the. where Robert shock did his work it's. much more extreme the ones that you have. are from a distance and the other ones. are kind of blurry and you're looking at. it it looks similar but like that I was. there in 2003 so it's I'm sure you were. I'm sure you were but the like this is. different this the the fissures in there.

are different they really look like. water flow and if you're talking about. the different layer layers of stone. which are softer in some layers and. harder in other if you did have that. kind of water flowing through it it. would make sense that the softer layers. would be more eroded and that's Robert. shock's contention and how are you going. to date that though to however long ago. one of the other key dispro don't you. date it though but don't you date it. though by the amount of rainfall that we. know took place at a certain time. because a small amount of rainfall can.

also cause erosion especially in a dry. environment so very dry environments a. tiny amount of rainfall can actually. damage things even worse because things. are so dry but that level of erosion. well but you need to come up with some. independent way of dating it right and. that's why that's where the issue is. what we do have is independent. confirmation that the blocks in the. pyramids came from the Quarry right. there right and we have dates on those. blocks from radiocarbon dates of wood in. between those blocks there's an area. where my my work is misunderstood I.

strongly support Robert shock on the. 12,000 year old dating of the Sphinx and. of the megalithic temples in front of. the Sphinx I've never claimed that the. pyramids are 12,000 years old oh I know. it didn't say you have I know some. people do though some people do I've. I've never claimed that I I I I do not. seek to divorce the why I brought up the. notion that they' been resurfaced. because that's the claim yeah I've heard. that claim as well you know people had. been living in them for thousands of. years and so that the material that. you're dating is from that time period.

yeah and what do you make of the. hieroglyphs that show kingdoms going. back 30,000 years I've never heard that. so I have no comments it's in it's in. all the king lists of the of the Oh you. mean the dating of that yeah well so. there's a lot of issues with the way way. that those are dated because they're not. precisely dated it's just Generations so. it's about how you interpret that kind. of stuff but it's still it becomes an. issue of methology are they adding in. extra Generations there and stuff like. that or or are they actually reporting. their truthful memory of their past well.

but we'd want to have directly dated. evidence of that we you might want to. have that I well yeah I think if we're. going to talk about archaeological. evidence we need directly dated stuff. and one of the things it's fascinating. about Egypt is the discovery of older. construction methods that are below and. very sophisticated below the surface. that they they the different temples. were built on previous construction I. mean that happens in every culture where. you see sort of spaces being reused in. different ways Temple of Horus at edu. where the Atlantis story is told uh in. an ancient Egyptian context is a good.

example of that because the Temple of. Horus at edu was was just the latest. incarnation of a series of older temples. that had stood on that on that site it. does uh it it is a regular issue right. in ancient Egypt and so how much time we. talking about then so if we go back to. 4,500 years ago which is the established. date of the construction of the Great. Pyramid right somewhere around then edu. dates to the talic period so it's. actually after Plato So can I talk a. second about we'll come to that I think.

it'd be really good to talk about edu. and Atlantis all right briefly though. we've been doing this for a long time. yeah yeah yeah I know it's great. everybody's hanging in there um but. these temples that were built on these. older Temple what what time period is. ascribed to them like what's the old. this Construction in the case in the. case of edu that comes into the early. Old Kingdom the the earliest not not. prehistoric so what what year uh maybe. 4,000 years ago and so what is the. oldest construction that we're aware of.

in Egypt I mean we have Neolithic. buildings that go back you know 8,000. years or something 9,000 years yeah I. think the oldest construction that we're. of in Egypt is the Great Sphinx and the. megalithic temples in front of it that's. that's that's my view I mean but we have. no evidence from the Giza plateau of any. occupation that early and that's one of. the most intensively explored. archaeological landscapes in the world. in terms of food seeds in terms of. anything yeah in terms of artifacts or. seeds or food we have nothing that dates. back that old the the question is like.

what would be left Well we'd find stuff. just like we find stuff everywhere I. mean is it there a point of no return. though like there's a is there a time. period where there's 20,000 or 30,000. years ago where all the stuff you're. looking for would have already been. consumed by the Earth no because when. you work in. stone this survives stols stols stone. tools fire Pottery bones themselves are. going to survive in that kind of. envirment what do we think they used to. transport these Stones cut these Stones. place them and how did they have a.

mathematical understanding of geometry. to the point where they could put. together this immense structure of. 2,300,000 stones if you think about. everybody else that was alive 4,500. years ago you don't think of anything. even remotely sophisticated as Egypt I. don't know I think what we're starting. to see is that there is a lot more stuff. that's very there's nothing like the. great par look in terms of like visual. striking stuff I agree also. accomplishment yeah and I mean but the. Egyptians tell us that they do it they. tell us the names of their Engineers.

that design it like Imhotep and they. they they have depictions of them moving. enormous stones and statues that take. you know 50 60 people they they they do. it on Sand um here wait I have this. booted up in my Google if you want jam. me. um this is from later but uh sorry I. hate Google sometimes um but this is. this is from a little later I think it's. New Kingdom but it shows people moving. this enormous statue and so what they're.

actually doing is doing it on S come on. Washington Post and what is uh what year. is this image from oh God it's I think. it's New Kingdom so maybe 2500 years ago. something no more than that uh 3,000. years ago- is. um but what they're showing is they do. it on a sledge right here a sledge and. then they pour water on the sand so that. it can actually help move it and so it. makes it actually doable to move. something that large and so I mean I. just want to get back to the point that.

look humans are smart people can I ask. you this though is this this is 2,000. years ago probably more like 3,000 isn't. that after these things are made this. well no because the Egyptians kept. constructing large things so they did. have things like this that they made. during this time bu pyramids but they. still built enormous temples like a carn. and these enormous statues ex sliding. megalithic statues uh on wet sand uh I'm. I'm not disputing that but what I'm. wondering is how you get a series of.

actually dozens of 70 ton Granite blocks. up to 300 ft above the base of the. pyramid to form the ceiling of the. king's chamber and the floor and the. ceilings of the relieving Chambers above. the king's chamber no no matter how much. wet sand you've got you're not going to. get them 300 ft in the air levers lever. what levers yeah well levers made of. wood we can find this hang on lever is. made of you've been to Giza so you know. what the Great Pyramid looks like um. we're envisaging a ramp right it's.

possible yeah a ramp to bring the stones. up to that three I'm envisaging very. smart people with large labor forces and. the equipment needed me too I'm. envisaging that too but I find it. difficult to see how your wet sand examp. gets get 70 ton Granite blocks 300t in. the air but you've got to make the. concession that there's such a jump. between what these people were able to. do and what everybody else was able to. do there's such a difference I mean I. thinking something different is how I'd.

put it it's not just doing something. different it's doing something on a. scale that no one is doing 4,500 years. ago that scale is insane I mean it's. cool as hell but it's also it's so. different yeah it's as different to the. rest of the world as to hunter gatherer. civilizations that are in the Amazon to. people that are living in Manhattan and. that's why even in the Roman period. Egypt was a tourist destination you know. to go there and see these Marvels and so.

ever since they've been built it's. become a tourist destination because. they're so visually striking and they. they really grab at everybody's. imagination right and so there's. something very enigmatic about that but. I don't want to sort of say just cuz. it's enigmatic and mysterious that we. should not give credit to these people. cuz they were it's the same people no. one no one's saying don't give credit to. these people I think even people that. are dating Egypt back like if that the. hieroglyphs that dated back to more than. uh 30,000 years it's the same people no.

one's saying it's different people that. did it what everyone's saying is like. how did they achieve the level of. sophistication that they absolutely. undeniably had at the very most recent. two 4,500 years ago so just just that. alone like what the [ __ ] was going on. there there's a date stamp at Giza uh. and This concerns another issue between. archaeology and me is is what counts as. evidence what can we regard as. evidence archaeology dismisses the Great.

Sphinx as evidence for an older. civilization on the grounds that you've. put uh can't be presented as evidence. for for an older civilization and the. other thing that archaeology tends to. dismiss uh is mythology and tradition. can I can I give a a small quick. presentation which is much to do with. Egypt and much to do with with what. impassion me about this subject and then. we'll we'll uh come back. to Flint um so this is a another one of.

s's amaz amazing pictures of the Great. Pyramid from the air uh the ancient. Egyptians spoke of a Time called zepe. the first time uh when the gods walked. the Earth um um and and uh if we're. going to find out when that was you need. to have knowledge of an obscure. astronomical phenomenon called the. precession of the. equinoxes now we all know that we uh. everybody's heard the song we live in. the dawning of the age of Aquarius. actually this connects to this idea uh.

because the Earth wobbles on its axis. and it's the viewing platform from which. we observe the Stars it changes the. times that particular Stars rise in. times of year uh and and it changes the. positions of those stars in the sky as. viewed from the Earth right now at dawn. on the Spring Equinox the sun rises. against the background of the. constellation of Pisces we live if you. like in the age of Pisces and we will do. for the next hundred years or so but. because of the processional wobble we're. going to move into the age of Aquarius.

in about a 100 years that just means. that the constellation of Aquarius will. house the sun on the Spring Equinox uh. in that in that time because of the. processional wobble and these shifts. take place at the rate of about one. degree every 72 years now the discoverer. of procession is attribut the Discovery. is attributed to a Greek astronomer and. mathematician called hipparchus uh and. and we're looking at 127 BC but these. guys Giorgio de santiana and he Von. desend uh in an amazing piece of work.

called Hamlet's Mill uh strongly dispute. that uh and they they they suggest that. we're looking at an extremely ancient. knowledge of procession uh worldwide. Heritage of A Lost Civilization to which. all subsequent civilizations in all. parts of the globe forgetful of the. source of the precious Legacy they. received are The Ungrateful heirs. Georgio de santiana was professor of the. history of science at MIT hether vashan. was professor of the history of science. at Frankfurt University so they're no. lightweights um they refer to the fact.

that a series of numbers keep cropping. up in ancient myths all around the world. associated with imagery and those. numbers are all based on the number 72. I'll have to be quick about this but 72. divided by 2 is 36 72 + 36 is 108 108. divided by 2 is 54 there's a whole. series of numbers in ancient mythology. far more ancient than the Greeks which. deploy these numbers they go back right. into the rig Veda in written forms and. and much much earlier than that uh if we.

go to Anor in Cambodia an amazing site. again Santa took this from a helicopter. way back in the '90s you'll find at Anor. a myth uh displayed on the walls and. that's called the churning of the Milky. ocean uh and here we see um the the. Great Serpent wrapped around the body uh. of Mount mandera and teams of demons and. angels are pulling on the body of The. Serpent and and the this is seen as a an. image of precession of the processional.

wobble uh by the uh by santiana and. vesan and they point out that it's not. only expressed in myth but also in. architecture so at Anor Tom we've got um. 108 statues on the bridge that's a. processional number it's 70 it's 72 plus. 36 54 on each side uh and it's the. churning of the Milky ocean by Mount. mandera that's being displayed there. Anor what is like the Great Pyramid is. aligned to within a fraction of a single.

degree of True North Southeast and West. and on the Spring Equinox if you go to. Anor and stand at the end of that Long. Causeway right in the center you'll. observe this and you'll only observe it. then you'll observe the sun rising. directly over the central tower sitting. on top of the central tower of Anor wat. this site nobody disputes it is an. equinoxial marker it's designed to. celebrate the Spring Equinox and that's. what you see at that time and at that. time only let's jump over to Egypt now. uh when we come to the Nile Delta uh.

here's the Great Pyramid now I give you. some statistics it's. 481.134 Acres weight 6 million tons 2.3. million blocks lost casing Stones also. came off in that earthquake 115,000 of. them weighing 10 T tons each covering an. area of 22 Acres anger of slope is 52°. and this Monument is aligned to within 3.

60ths of a single degree of True North. why do I pick 36ths because de degrees. are divided into 60 minutes so we're. talking about three arc minutes a tiny. fraction of a single degree of error uh. in the Great Pyramid the Great Pyramid. seems to be speaking to the Earth um. it's not only aligned almost precisely. to True North it's placed very close to. Latitude 30 1/3 of the way between the. Equator and the North Pole uh and most. mysteriously of all if you use if you.

take the height of the Great Pyramid and. multiply it by. 43,200 which is a precessional number. it's one of those numbers you get the. polar radius of the Earth and if you. measure the base base perimeter of the. Great Pyramid and multiply it by the. same number. you get the equatorial circumference of. the earth uh so we have a monument that. is perfectly aligned to geographical. North uh that and and that encodes the. dimensions of the. Earth on a scale based on a key motion.

of the Earth itself the procession of. the Earth's axis this to me is very. clever now I'm not going to support that. here there's not much time but if. anybody wants to freeze the frame and. look at this slide all this information. comes from IES Edwards uh about the. statistics of the Great Pyramid and the. the calculations are there um now. there's the Giza Plateau there's our. three Great Pyramids it's hard to can. you see the Sphinx in this. [Music]. Flint is a no maybe I'm missing how. about you Joe is that in the left hand.

corner yeah it's in the left there it's. in the left there it's it's 270 ft long. but you can see how it's kind of dwarfed. by the by the pyramids in the background. the Great Sphinx looks over the Nile. Valley that's the Nile Valley we're. looking at and the Great Sphinx is. oriented perfectly to East we've talked. about the erosion of the Sphinx this is. the view from the back of the Sphinx's. head if you were there at the summer. solstice you would see the sun rising. very far to the left far to the North of. East if you were there at the winter.

solstice you'd see the sun rising very. far to the South uh south of East but if. you're there on the Spring Equinox you. see the Sphinx is looking directly at. the Rising Sun just like Anor does it's. a equinoxial markor it's clearly there. to celebrate the equinoxial moment uh. and we find the same kind of metaphor of. a whirling churning process taking place. in ancient Egypt for example here um and. uh the question then becomes was there a. time when the lion Sphinx looked at a.

lion in the sky and yes there was a time. when the lion Sphinx looked at a lion in. the sky and that time is around 12,600. years ago it's not a single moment it's. an Epoch of several hundred years uh but. the constellation of Leo was the age of. Leo was Rising housing the sun 12,600. years ago um procession can be used to. fix the date of Monument still is today. the the the Hoover Dam um has a star map. built into it which freezes the skies.

above the Hoover Dam uh and the reason. that is there the architect said in in. in remote ages to come intelligent. people with knowledge of procession. would be able to discern the. astronomical time uh of the Dam's. Construction so let's use this. processional tool to consider the age of. the whole Giza Plateau I strongly. reaffirm I do not insist that the. pyramids are 12,000 years old I do. insist that the Sphinx is 12,000 years. old I think it's a very strong argument. that Robert shock has made but I do.

think the ground platforms for the. Sphinx were there I think the for for. the pyramids were there 12,000 years ago. and I think the project was completed. much later by the ancient Egyptians um. you need to know a bit about Egyptian. mythology the god of science. who walked the Earth in the the. legendary zepe the first time murdered. by 72 conspirators another one of those. processional numbers uh eventually. becomes the ruler um of the ancient. Egyptian afterlife Kingdom which is. called the datat which is both an. underworld and a region of the sky uh.

and here's Robert bal's Orion. correlation uh and one of Robert's. strongest critics is Ed crup from the. Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles who. doesn't accept the correlation. nevertheless he does accept that. according to the pyramid text the. Pharaoh Rose to the stars as Orion. Egyptian astronomy recognized Orion at. least his belt as the celestial. incarnation of Osiris and I want to pay. tribute to Robert bval he's another. researcher in this Al alternative field. uh who has has suffered massive.

heart-rending attacks by by the academic. establishment and yet who has. contributed a key idea that is worthy of. further consideration one of the reasons. I don't separate the Great pyramids from. the ancient Egyptians is that there are. four shafts cut through the body of the. Great Pyramid uh and this is not. disputed uh the southern shaft of the. king's chamber points directly at at the. belt of Orion specifically at the lowest. of the three stars as it crosses the. Meridian which is the north south line.

in the sky uh in the epoch that the. pyramids are supposedly built around. 2,500 BC and so do all all the other for. shafts also Target stars in that Epoch. the epoch of 2500 BC. but uh when we come back to the Sphinx. we have to remember this alignment is. slow it would have remained recognizable. for more than a thousand years roughly. the younger drers roughly from 12,800 to. 11,600 years ago uh what confronts us at.

Giza in my view is a threedimensional. representation of the sky of about. 12,000 800 to 11,600 years ago we have. the Sphinx looking du East at the. constellation of of Leo at the moment. the sun bisects The Horizon we find that. the constellation of Orion is sitting. Due South on the Meridian with its three. belt stars in the same pattern as the. three great pyramids on the ground and. not only that but procession has caused. the orientation of the belt stars to.

change in 2,500 BC they were in the. wrong orientation 10,500 BC they're in. the right. orientation um and and I'm just asking. are we looking at the date stamp of Zep. tee the first time written in the. astronomical language of precession and. in case lastly in case anybody doubts. that we've made up these images uh these. are shots from stellarium uh this is. 10,600 BC uh this is the due east view. from Giza looking at the constellation. of Leo Li rising in direct line with the.

Gaze of the Sphinx uh as the sun breaks. the Horizon Leo is a bit higher if we. look due south at that moment we'll see. the constellation of a of a of a Ryan. sitting Due South on the meridian. uh and and and finally we have Orion and. the Sphinx in this in this single image. these are genuine genuine images from. stellarium anybody can have a computer. software program and go look at the. ancient skies and the ancient Skies tell. us that there's this astonishing. connection uh between the Sphinx in its.

equinoxial alignment and the. constellation of Leo and between the. Great Pyramids and the constellation of. Orion as it looked 12,500 years ago. Flint what what is your take on this uh. the the understanding of the. processional equinoxes do you buy. it unsurprisingly no um so let me. explain um so my issue here let's I have. there's a bunch of things that Graham. talked about and I have replies to a few. different ones um and then I'd like to. do a quick presentation of gez this has.

been a long conversation yeah um so uh I. think the issue with the the lion facing. Leo rests on that assumption so. obviously it's facing the sunrise it. even aligns reasonably well with the. Equinox but we don't have any examples. of say a constellation sign facing. another constellation sign that's a it's. a one-off example that as I started at. the very beginning Archaeology is built. upon patterns and so a one-off example.

to me is not convincing that that's the. intention of that is to have it facing. Leo because we only have this one. example and it's it's an. interesting idea but I I don't see it as. proven at all um if we want to get into. some of the math so look I had surgery. this last year and I was listening to. one of your podcasts gram while I was. zoned out of my mind on painkillers and. uh that must have been fun oh yeah and. so was it was it wasn't a Joe Rogan.

podcast it was a different one you did. but so I I wanted to check out this math. about the pyramid and so what I mean I. know that you did not originate with. this math but you you you you use it a. lot to explain how cultures see the. procession and and so in a sense you. take the height of the pyramid. 146.54 56,000 M and then you're using. this procession number 72 which is the. amount that the Earth's wobble changes. by one degree is 72 years and so you.

multiply it by 43,200 why is that a. processional number because that's 72 *. 600 and I checked it I checked it in. different kinds of things if you do it. in feat or you do it in metric system it. works right because that's how math work. so with multiplication it's going to be. transferable to different kind of units. and it's. 99.57% accurate but then I thought to. myself wait a second can we find this. elsewhere and sure enough as Graham. States you can so I went to my own. backyard the Parthenon in Greece and the.

paron has 46 inner columns plus 23 outer. columns for a total of 69 columns which. I think is a pretty cool number in and. of itself you got 69 and then you can. multiply 69 by 576,000. which is also a processional number of. 72 * 8,000 and you get 39,7 44,000 which. is 99.17% accurate to the global. circumference of the earth and kind of. my point here though is that this will. work for everything because you have. such a large number you can solve it.

yourself so let's take 420 we all love. 420 right so you just do this backwards. you take the polar radius of the Earth. 6, 356,000 divide that by 420 divide it by. our procession 72 and you get the. solution to this problem which is. 2101 185 let's round that to 210 which. is pretty cool cuz that's half of 420. plus it's 3 * 7 * 10 and then when you. do it in reverse 420 *.

15,120 which is that proc processional. number of 72 * 210 and you get. 6,350 400 it's 99.91% accurate more. accurate than the height of the gr. pyramid so every time you smoke a joint. you are connecting with the Earth. mathematically the reality is is that. math is there to find relationships. between numbers and so we can go and. find those very easily if we work them. out and I'm not saying that you did this. in Reverse I'm saying that we're always. going to find mathematical relationships.

between such numbers and so that's what. I think is really important here to. think about that it's always going to be. there if you look it's not something. that the Egyptians necessarily encoded. in there that's a large assumption if. you see what I mean yeah that makes. sense to me what doesn't make sense to. me is how do you think they were able to. align the pyramid to true north south. east and west within within such a. slight degree of error and do you think. they had knowledge at all about the. processional.

equinoxes um for the second one I'd say. I see no evidence um of of knowledge of. the processional equinoxes in h and. Egyptian uh architecture in terms of the. first question aligning it with True. North there's different ways you can do. that with with the north star or by even. on on a on an equinox if you hold up an. obelisk or a stick and you trace the. shadow that it makes you're going to end. up getting true north east Southeast. West and so there's different ways that. they could have worked out what true. north was which one they used I'm not.

sure but the level. of accuracy that they achieved smart. people smart people just be kind of. beyond smart that's what freaks me out. about the whole subject it's like how. was this regard regardless of the. argument about the date whatever it is. humans built it they did somehow they. made something that is so immense and so. mind-blowing that today people scratch. their heads and say how yeah and I think. that that's such a cool thing when you. think about the past you know they.

didn't have TV they didn't have Joe. Rogan to listen to they had the stars. above them and so you know I I fully. agree with graham that a lot of ancient. cultures are looking at the stars and we. we can track different times when. they're aligning things with soul. equinoxes or different what do you make. of the the what looks like ancient drill. marks and all these different bizarre. ways it seems like they were carving the. stones out that's kind of. inexplicable yeah see I'm not sure if. I'd say it's inexplicable you often. times see those drill marks and so.

they're not as precise as some people. always claim on on online and stuff like. that not just that they were precise but. that it required a drill that moves at. insane speed well I think it required a. lot of sand it was the abrasion of the. sand that actually did that and so it's. it's it's the sand itself is just slowly. uaing down the granite the with a core. but coring it like what would you use to. do that a drill made of copper or bronze. and then sand and water yeah has that.

ever been shown to be possible to do. that sci against myths on YouTube that. is done they've done those core samples. like they dug into stone they drilled. into Granite like that yeah I know that. they tried to cut them and it took a. long ass time sawing back and forth I. think that's what we need to think about. is this takes a long ass time it's a. huge achievement of human energy and and. things like that I'd like to I'd like to. just finish on this point of the date. stamp it's not one thing it's two things. it's the it's the three pyramids on the.

ground and their relationship to Orion. at the same moment that the Sphinx. Equinox targeted very precisely not. slightly but perfectly due east is. gazing at its Celestial counterpart in. the sky and the Milky way is uh in. position over the Nile River as well at. the same time it's a picture of the sky. that we're looking at at Giza picture of. the sky 12,600 years before our time. that we're looking at at Giza and I. don't think that's a coincidence I think. that's a I think that's a a deliberate.

intentional date stamp that's been. that's been placed on that place it's. not just one Monument it's a whole. complex of monuments on the Giza plateau. and indeed the Nile River as well which. are being put on the ground to mirror of. the sky at that time and I think it's. worth taking seriously I think it's. worth investigating and then we add the. issue of the erosion of the Sphinx to. this which also puts it back to 12,000. years and I think it's unfortunate that. Archaeology is so hurried to dismiss all. of this and so unwelcoming to the.

possibility that we might be missing. something in the human. story can I give a little conclusion. myself sure please do all right um Jamie. do you mind if I could share my slides. first of all I really want to express. thank you to both of you um for having. me thank you thanks for coming I want to. say I'm not here to tell people what to. believe I really am not I'm here to try. to share the kind of evidence that we. have and what archaeologists actually do. and I really do strongly believe that we.

do update with new evidence I think that. every single paper we publish is trying. to change the Paradigm of how we see the. past with new methods new evidence and. new things like that and what we're. starting to realize is that humans were. very resilient and very Innovative we're. seeing these mammoth bone structures. going back 30,000 years something like. that 20,000 years I think I got that. date wrong it's been a long chat um but. so we're we're seeing this evidence for. sort of major hunter gatherer monuments. that is growing and really changing our. picture of of who we are but at the same.

time I want to say that Archaeology is. very much about cultural heritage around. the world we need to give credit to the. people that did things and we need to. really understand how modern people see. their own culture Cal Heritage and. respect that and so I just want to give. a shout out to everybody listening from. all over the world be proud of who you. come from but lastly I not lastly I have. a couple things I want to say but I want. to say there's major threats to. archaeology that are going on in the. world right now there was just a major. BBC article from yesterday Wales where I.

am right now there's a 20% across the. board cut to cultural heritage in Wales. they're talking about closing the. national museum uh in Cardiff the. national museum of Wales one of the. jewels of that sector there and so I. want to draw everybody's attention I'll. share the links with you guys to this. petition in front of the Welsh. Parliament to try to get this debated. because it's really important that these. scale of cuts do not happen everybody. that's listening Graham I think you and. me can agree that archaeological. research is important you could not do.

the research you do without the kind of. cultural heritage initiatives that. happen absolutely not I couldn't do any. of the work I do without the work that's. been done by archaeologists and I've. said that on Joe's show multiple times I. agree with you and I I want people. support the funding of archaeology. history at Cardiff University where I. teach there's threats to cut all ancient. languages from the program from the. teaching program Latin ancient Greek. Sanskrit and Hebrew and so this is a. huge deal if you want to have people go. out and do their own research we need to. have these kind of subjects available at.

public universities like Cardiff. University one of the top archaeology. departments in the world it was just. ranked just a few weeks ago in one of. the world rankings as like in the top 20. or 30 in the world it had just closed. Sheffield where I learned how to study. ancient animal remains University of. Sheffield just completely axed and. destroyed a few years ago and so what. we're seeing is a complete defunding of. the humanities and the social sciences. and history and archaeology anthropology. classical studies and more and so please.

if we care about understanding these. mysteries from the past we need to fund. being able to teach people we need to. fund the actual Research into it can I. ask you can I st what what what's the. motivation behind defunding archaeology. saving money to put on what I have no. idea new. buildings we don't actually cost that. much most of our research is funded. through grants that we competitively get. like my grant that I use to do my. isotope analysis or it's funded through. private donations I can't understand how.

with our knowledge of History it's so. it's so fascinating that archaeology. would somehow or another be underfunded. yeah it's really bad UNC Greensboro just. cut. yeah it's crazy when you consider what. our culture does spend money on that. it's not that it's not spending money on. finding out who we are and where we came. from finding out about our is there. better evidence that we're sick yeah. it's very good evidence that we're sick. that we don't want funding of our six.

civilization we tick all the boxes for. the next Lost. Civilization I I have I'll get to that. in a second oh no I would like to I. since you've had your your your moment. here Flor do you have oh no I have just. a couple more things to say and then and. then you can finish up as we agreed uh. sorry we also face threats like looting. so the trade in archaeological artifacts. usually comes from looting done by. terrorists different cartels around the. world and we need funding to protect. sites and things like that but I want to.

share that there's good archaeology on. YouTube I want to give a shout out to. the world of antiquity Stefan Milo. archaeology tube there's a new channel. by Dr smiy Nathan that I think is really. interesting pause this go check out some. of these channels there's also a lot of. really great archaeology podcasts I want. to give a big shout out to the tales. from Atlantis the dirt movies we dig and. one that's not on here that I'm going to. appear on next week talking about the. Bronze Age collapse and climate change. in the Eastern Mediterranean is let's. talk about myths baby hosted by Liv.

Albert so check those out but lastly I. just want to talk about why it matters. that we study the past when we look at. scholarship and understanding the. collapse of societies what we usually. see is human resilience it's not like. every every body dies people survive. it's the Upper Crust of society that. disappears it's the Palaces it's the. political structures it's the major. temples it's The Monuments it's the art. normal people survive and so what I want. to say is if you are wealthy and you're. listening to this and you're worried. about societal collapse don't go and try.

to hide from it you need to invest in. our society that is what your wealth and. status is based upon is our society. itself so you need to invest in the res. resilience of the people around you and. not thinking that you can protect. yourself cuz if you look at history go. read these books Eric Klein's book comes. out tomorrow guy Middleton's book is. goes all over the world and looks at. collapse it is the rich and the elites. who get eaten so we have to invest in. everyone if we want to survive this and.

my own research Into Climate Change at. the end of the Bronze Age what it shows. is that the ancient Greeks adapted too. late it took them hundreds of years to. realize that the climate had dried and. it took them hundreds of years to adapt. their food C systems and so let's not do. that we understand how the world is. changing around us let's listen to that. and try to invest in our future. everything we do whether it's trading. stocks deciding how to fix our plumbing. deciding on what we're going to do it's. based on our knowledge of the past and. so we need to invest in our knowledge.

from the past and what it can tell us so. that we can act properly today thank you. ironically sound like you're preparing. us for the collapse of civilization I. already gave that interview. it sounds like what you're saying sounds. like rich people better put your money. back into society or we're [ __ ] uh. Graham you want to wrap this up yeah. it's been an interesting conversation. flint and there's. there's so much both from my side and. from yours that we've that we've not. been able to touch on um I my request to.

you is I showed that clip where you're. calling for a crusade against pseudo. archaeology. with pseudo archaeology from the. beginning I believe your friend John. Hoops or your co-author John Hoops is. one of the moderators of my Wikipedia. page which people cannot edit my. Wikipedia page uh it's locked now um the. request that I have is is it necessary.

for archaeology to insult those of us. who come from different perspectives and. look at the past in a different way. insult people like Robert baval insult. people like Robert shock insult people. like John Major Jenkins who who John. Hoops had a horrible campaign against. back in the 2010s through until John. died in John Major Jenkins died in in. 2018 do does does mainstream archology. have to insult us all the time in that.

way is it not is it not possible to have. a meeting of minds and say well here are. a bunch of Outsiders we archaeologists. think that they're completely crazy but. let's actually entertain their views. let's look at them let's not let's not. be so combative about this when I first. started writing about this Fingerprints. of the Gods in in. 1995 I was immediately attacked by. archaeology it began it began. immediately BBC Horizon devoted a whole. program to to trying to rubbish my work. and having and gave platform to. archaeologist to do that why do we need.

to have this conflict why is it not. possible to have multiple points of view. on the past why why ultimately does. archaeology so much want to control the. narrative about the past why why and and. why do so by by attaching Notions like. racism and white supremacy to people. that archaeology disagrees with is it. not possible to have disagreements that. don't that don't involve all of that. I'll tell you frankly I I was hurt badly. wounded badly as a human being uh by. this Association that you were very.

largely responsible for of my work uh. with white supremacy racism and all the. other stuff that's written about in the. saa's letter I don't think any of that. was necessary I don't think any of that. got to grips with the fundamentals of my. work or my ideas it was just an attempt. to write me off and to smear me and I. think it's most unfortunate and perhaps. if anybody can learn a lesson from this. it's actually we're all on the same side. we're all looking at the past we're all. trying to solve the mystery of the past.

some of us are doing it in a in a. rigorous scientific manner in the manner. that you are some of us are doing it in. multiple different ways i' I've devoted. 30 years of my life to this subject I'm. passionate about this subject. it it matters to me I have never. knowingly told a lie although I am. constantly accused of lying I tell my. truth and I try to represent my truth as. best as I can and I believe that's true. for the majority of people in the. alternative field can't we have some. kind of Meeting of Minds between.

alternative approaches to the past and. the archaeological approach to the past. and is it not possible that something. beautiful might grow out of that if I. could speak to that I think the problem. is one of communic a and uh this bizarre. modern time where someone says something. and then a bunch of people attack that. thing that someone says there's a big. difference between uh a rational calm. kind person being able to have a. disagreement with someone face to face. because like I think today there were.

some contentious moments but I think. overall we set a very nice tone of just. letting each side speak to what they. believe and what the the evidence show. and have a very I think a productive. conversation about it and I think part. of the problem is most people don't have. access to the people that are saying. these things that they disagree with so. what do they do they make a YouTube. video or they make a blog post or they. they make a podcast whatever it is and.

they dispute it and they attack that. person and maybe they insult that person. or maybe they connect that person to a. bunch of horrible things because they're. so emotionally invested in one side or. the other side being correct whether. they're right or wrong and I think it's. it's a function that it's a part of how. human beings aren't really meant to talk. to each other that way they're not meant. to share ideas they're meant to do this. human beings are designed to sit down. and talk to each other and I think so. much of our world's problems other than.

obviously geopolitical issues and. military issues and so much of our. differences with each other it's a lot. of it is Mis is a lack of communication. we don't necessarily honestly. communicate about things and where you. get a more nuanced understanding of who. this person is you're talking to where. they stand who they are what what their. beliefs are how do they get to these. places how do they where what what. caused them to think like this and is. also the effect that it has on the. person who's attacked who wants to kind.

of attack back you know which is very. unproductive it's very unproductive to. carry around that pain it's very impr. productive to carry around that. criticism and it burdens you and it. takes away resources from all other. parts of your life it can create stress. it can create the a ripple effect that. affects personal personal relationship. excuse me business relationships all. sorts of things in your life your your. health whether or not you take care of. yourself you're so embattled in these. conflicts with human beings that are. almost mostly unnecessary and especially.

at that level amongst kind intelligent. people that really just want to find out. what's. true a good statement Joe yeah we can. all be nicer to each other agree with. you we we can all we can all be nicer uh. and it doesn't need to it doesn't need. to involve pouring scorn and uh. mobilizing hatred against against others. I as I say I've been in involved in this. conflict with archaeology for for 30. plus years um but the thing that hurt me.

the most is this bizarre Association of. me with racism and white supremacy and. anti-Semitism and Mis all these words. are in the society for American. archaeology letter which tried to get my. show Branded as science fiction so I. mean one thing that I would say is I've. read your books in the upcoming uh. release of your show right and the tone. between your books and the tone between. your show is night and day you were very. comat what do you mean by the upcoming.

release of my show I meant back two. years ago yeah um so you read read all. my books no several of them though okay. you have a lot of books because that's. the other thing I'm going to pick you up. on that I'd like to say right now is in. a show like this we've gone a bit. probably over three hours oh yeah we're. at like four 4 hours and 30 minutes but. it's not enough I've I I've I've written. a large number of. books at thousands of footnotes uh for. those who'd like to evaluate my my my.

work do do check out the books it can't. it can't be possibly sampled here just. as Flint's can't on the basis of a. three-hour show but I think we've done. well I think there is a I think there is. some kind of Meeting of Minds I like you. as a person but I hope that we change. our tones on both ends because like I. said the tone you chose in that show was. offensive to archaeologists yeah that. was that was because I'd been offended. by archaeologist for 30 years but if we. want to end this and take the. temperature down y yeah we have to think. about how we do this and we need to talk. about different aspects of that in a.

friendlier way here here so are you are. you still going to Crusade against. pseudo archology well I don't what is it. well I think but the best way to Crusade. against stuff that's not correct is to. do what you've done it just come that's. why I agreed to come here it's great and. I think everybody's goal is the same we. want to find out what happened like what. what this incredible history of the. human species it's so bizarre and. especially when it comes to I am so. fascinated with Egypt that that one to. me is the the craziest of crazy like.

what was going on there like what. changed in the world that that's not. possible anymore that societies like. that don't exist and how did they exist. 4,000 500 years ago in this one place I. me and and they maintained their. civilization for 3,000 years yes it's. crazy and Ian it was also a place rich. with resources at the time there's a lot. of a lot of factors right but it's just. that's the most important things like. what happened what happened what what.

what was the process so thank you Flint. for coming on and thank you for. explaining all that stuff about grain. and agriculture that was really really. fascinating next time I'll share my. research on Bones and naan drugs I want. to hear it let's talk let's talk um and. thank you Graham it's always great to. talk to you and I really appreciate all. your work and your years of dedication. to this and it it's just opened up these. conversations and I think uh it's it's. interesting it's just really interesting. to find out what happened yeah well Joe. thank you to you for for hosting this.

first time ever kind of event my. pleasure I think it was great so I think. this could be done with a lot of. subjects you know like people don't have. to be [ __ ] you can all be nice. that's a beautiful line to add with. people don't have to be all right bye. everybody bye. [Music].