Joe Rogan Experience #2133 - Brendan O'Neill

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe. Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan. podcast by night all. day BR what's up Joe how you doing is my. goal before the end of the world to talk. to as many interesting people as. possible and it feels like that's kind. of ramped up lately so uh I saw you on. triggernometry and I was introduced to. your stuff through that and then I. watched a bunch of your conversations. online so I'm excited to talk to you man.

thanks for being here I'm so happy to be. here you wouldn't believe it so thank. you for having me my my pleasure yeah. because it it does seem like I really do. want to talk to as many people as I can. before you can't talk to anybody anymore. yeah well exactly who knows you know how. long before talking to people is. outlawed or suddenly talking to people. like me and people like you well I I. don't think that's going to happen. likely anytime in the future I think too. many people push back against it but I. think it's it certainly could make it. increasingly more difficult and my my. real fear is that we do something so.

stupid that we lose all communication. period I have a real fear of World War. III that like I haven't had since I was. a kid when when I was a kid I was. growing up in the 80s we were. legitimately worried that we're were. going to get new nuclear war with Russia. yeah it was a real fear and I remember. when the. fall when the fall of the Soviet Union. it was like a weight had been lifted off. the shoulders of the Earth yeah like. we're like oh my God thank God it's over. I remember I remember those days in the'. 80s we watched a film at school called.

the day after did you see that which is. a film about I think we've talked about. that didn't we talk about that before a. film about after nuclear war yeah it's a. film about Russia bombing America it's. very depressing but it we watched it at. school and we had numerous discussions. about what would we do in the event of a. nuclear Holocaust how would we try to. survive it but it was on our minds all. the time and there was also other. apocalyptic scenarios if you recall like. acid rain was a big one the ozone layer. was another one my childhood was full of.

fears that the end of the world was nigh. and I think people feel that again today. for different reasons and my approach to. it is always to think well where are the. real problems in terms of civilization. really grinding to a halt and what are. the unreal problems that are just. designed to whip up fear and make us. panic and make us fret about the future. so I think distinguishing between those. two things is probably quite important. it is very important it's also very. important to recognize that when there's. a thing that is getting people whipped.

up and it's in the news constantly for. sure someone's making money that's why. it's doing I used to think they were. warning us about the real dangers of. this or that I don't think that anymore. now I think they can justify the. fear-mongering by saying it's a. legitimate concern because it has the. opinions of a few people attached to it. but ultimately what they're doing is. they're somehow or another using it to. make money yeah well they're they're. either making money or they're making.

moral mileage or both so if you look at. global warming as a perfect example. right the climate change cast or the. climate catastrophe as we now have to. call it there are a lot of people. invested in this end of the world. scenario who are making a lot of money. from alternative sources of energy but. just as important as that I think. they're making moral mileage it's the. issue through which they can pose as the. saviors of humanity right and it gives. them a real sense of purpose I mean Al. Gore is a classic example he both makes. money from climate change fearmongering.

and he also positions himself as a. global Authority on how to save. humankind from the next apocalypse so I. think it's a combination of financial. reward and moral reward that draws. people to these apocalyptic scenarios. absolutely and also audience capture in. the case of like Greta thurberg yeah. right here's this young lady who's. become a celebrity by saying how dare. you that was it that's all it took. that's all it we're in the cash me. outside girl phe.

all he need is like a good slogan let. get ready to rumble whatever it is she's. the Green version of the catch me. outside girl that's what is but it's. like with you know with someone like. Greta it's I think it was funny for a. while that you had this 16-year-old kid. saying how dare you having a temper. tantrum in public essentially and all. these politicians in America and Britain. and across Europe would falling at her. feet and staring at her in this. wide-eyed fashion like she was some. Messiah Messianic figure come to deliver. human ity from the end of the world but.

more recently I think the Greta thunberg. cult is just not funny anymore because. she's now going around Europe and. telling governments to stop investing in. energy production to stop investing in. fossil fuel companies at during an. energy crisis and how old is she she's. 21 now she should know far better just. imagine just imagine being 21 and having. the president listening to you it's I. can imagine how you know how dumb I was. when I was.

I was shockingly stupid shockingly. stupid it when she started and she was. 16 17 she very young I I often think to. myself if when I was 16 and 17 the. thought of being in public and saying. things I would have said the craziest. stuff but that's exactly what she did. and I think the the problem is that. there were so many people in the adult. world who were willing to listen to her. and who engaged in her hysteria about. the end of the world and and and so I I.

often see the Greta phenomenon as a. perfect example of how on the one side. you have these cranks who are talking. nonsense and pushing ideas that are just. not true but the bigger problem is the. political world and the media world who. really buy into it and give it give it. meaning and give it emphasis and I think. there's that that kind of two-way. relationship between these things I'm. not saying that like Greta thurberg is. not an intelligent person cuz she. clearly is and she's very young and. again I was way dumber than her when I.

was her age but what she said was not. this extraordinary message of wisdom. that would Merit the kind of attention. that she got and that's why and it's. also it's not within her power as a. 16-year-old to get in front of all these. people so it's kind of like a form of. exploitation yeah it's a willing. exploitation but it's you're you're. you're using her as a political Pawn for. like. sort of cementing an an opinion that you.

must have on this subject that's. absolutely what happened it you know. like every other teenager she was. narcissistic um. self-involved panicking about the adult. world and how crazy it is that's what. that's what every teenager's like we all. went through that I did it yeah we all. do it we all did it we screamed how dare. you at our parents you know we thought. they're oppressing me they won't let me. go out they won't let me do this we all. have these kind of Oppression complexes.

when we're teenagers yes the problem. with hers is that it became this public. spectacle and it became a public. spectacle precisely as a consequence of. the political class who said you know. give us more really suck it to us there. was it was almost like a a a kind of. sedom masochistic relationship between. these self-hating Elites and this. teenage girl who was more than willing. to whip them in public and you had this. kind of it was mutually beneficial she. got to feel like she was Sav the world.

they got to feel like they were being. told off for being you know the rulers. of the world and it was beneficial for. both sides but it was when you look back. on it it was creepy as hell all of it's. very creepy and here's something to. consider too at what what level are. people immune to the [ __ ] that. they're talking about like here's here's. like an example about Hollywood these. people when I when I would talk to. people that didn't work in like. television and they had these ideas of.

what they're doing with television shows. you know oh they're they're pushing this. or they're creating that they're trying. to sedate America with nonsense and. they're being told to do it by the. government like no no no listen the. people making these shows watch these. shows they like making them this is what. they're trying to do they like watching. sitcoms they like making game shows. there's that's not a so they're as. trapped in it as you yeah it is dumbing. down the world 100% reality shows are. down the world but the people watching.

the reality shows are the same as the. people making them they all watch them. like they're they're making dumb [ __ ]. because people consume dumb [ __ ] and. that's not a conspiracy that's just a. market decision and I I wonder when it. gets to like climate change when it gets. to some of these like contentious issues. particularly the climate is a big one. because any scientist regardless of how. wise they are are and how well- read.

they are and how much they understand. about their field of study if they have. anything that deviates from The. Narrative they're like automatically. dismissed even ones that will talk about. long-term temperatures of the earth it's. almost like they don't want you to talk. about long-term temperatures of the. earth no no no we but there has never. been a Time In Our Lifetime but that's. all these things are true but we if you. look at longterm you recognize oh it's. never static even when humans didn't. exist.

Lors. going and consider that the only. consider what's happening during during. our lifetime not take into account. volcanic activity not take into account. you're blaming cow farts and you know. what I mean like there's there's so many. weird things that we do when we attach. an ideology to a science so the science. of climate change is fascinating right. it really is it's like taking into. account all these factors CO2 in the.

atmosphere and solar flares and what. what's going on with volcanic activity. and cloud cover and pollution and all. these different factors but if you don't. like tow the line and say this is a. catastrophe if you just want to look at. it objectively you're a heretic yeah. you're cast out of the Kingdom yeah. that's precisely the problem I think I. think there are probably more climate. change Skeptics out there than we. realize but there is a cost to saying.

what you think there is a social cost. there is a professional cost if you say. listen climate change might well be. happening there may be a human. contributory Factor but it's not the end. of the world a billion people are not. going to die that's that's [ __ ]. there's no evidence for that whatsoever. and we will probably be fine if we focus. on it and fix it if you say anything. like that even something quite moderate. you will be denounced as a climate. change denier you will be people will. say get them off the BBC get them off. the airwaves no platform them from.

universities we can't have these uh. Heretics speaking in the public sphere. so all of that instinct for cancellation. trickles down through society and the. message it sends to Ordinary People is. listen you might be skeptical of this. stuff but the price of speaking out is. too high so don't even bother so I. wouldn't be surprised if there were more. people out there than we realize who. think to themselves okay pollution's a. problem climate change May well be a big. issue but it's not the end of the world.

but they feel they can't say it because. this entire grammar of condemnation has. been created to depict these people as. handmaidens of the Apocalypse as deniers. whose words will literally kill people. and when you have that put on you when. you are told that when you are when you. are told that your thoughts could be so. damaging that they will kill people it. silences it makes people kind of retreat. and say well I'll I'll keep it to myself. I won't say it out loud so climate. change is a perfect example of where.

censorship does far more harm than good. because it it restricts our ability to. have the discussion about pollution and. so on that we really need to have I have. a friend who's a scientist who emailed. me did you have a climate denier on your. podcast and this was a while back and uh. I said no he's not a climate denier at. all what he simply stated is the fact. that the Earth is actually Greener now. than it has been in I don't know how. many hundreds of years and that what's.

really terrifying is a global cooling. and when when he was talking about there. have been times on Earth where the the. the world had gotten so cold that we had. crossed this threshold where the. atmosphere was tolerable for biological. life we got very close like within a few. digits that's what's spooky what's. really spooky is that what we're in. right now is the goldilock zone this is.

about as good as the Earth ever gets you. can have and we have all these. mitigating factors right air. conditioning housing we like this is the. best time ever to deal with errant. climate this is but if it cools we're. [ __ ] yeah well it's like you know um. the truth is that the climate change. alarmists which is how I prefer to refer. to environmentalists climate change. alarmists they're lying to us when they. say that more people than ever are dying. as a consequence of natural disasters.

it's not true my favorite part is when. they attach it to racism oh right. everything's racist more people of color. are dying because of climate change you. better [ __ ] do something otherwise. you're a racist it's like it's really. simple Checkers but it but and it's. simply untrue in fact the number of. people dying as a consequence of natural. disasters is plummeting and it has been. since the birth of modernity why because. capitalist Society modern society po. Industrial Revolution we got better at.

keeping in check the whims of Mother. Nature so how do they monkey with those. numbers when they when they twist the. numbers around to make it seem like you. know like what would they do that would. possibly make it like what could they. call upon that would say like this is. affecting certain people in certain. parts of the world but not others I. think they use methods of distortion. they um they Bank on people not looking. into the truth of the matter and a lot. of people don't so they they rely on the. unwillingness of lots of people to.

really explore the issue and to look at. what's really going on a good example. was the huge heat wave in Europe last. year yeah it was presented in the media. as a heat apocalypse people were going. to die this is the worst thing that's. ever happened this is UN it is they. connected to heart failure and and so. and they connected it to all of these. ailments that would inflict people in. southern Europe in particular and they. said it was unprecedented and it's not. true there have been huge heat waves in. the past far worse than the ones we had. last year but they rely on that kind of.

historical ignorance that kind of. unwillingness of people to understand as. you say that nature has been in flux. since the beginning beginning of time. and that's willingness to monkey with. the truth just to push a narrative it's. so bizarre and it's it's so bizarre that. it goes all the way down to gender. experiments on children yeah that's how. far which you would think would be the. the people that we would protect the. most from bad decisions the people that. we protect.

theid kids that areused and may have. insane parents that are trying to talk. them into something which is a real. thing yeah little kids who have now been. sacrificed at the altar of gender. ideology That's What's happen this is. child sacrifice in a modern form that's. what's happening and their bodies are. being used to prove an ideological point. which is this ideological point that. gender IDE gender identity is innate. we're born with it you you have it from.

birth and in order to prove this Hocus. Pocus idea which has absolutely no basis. in evidence or proof whatsoever they. have to experiment on children they have. to give them drugs they have to start. performing surgeries on them when they. reach a certain age they have to cut off. their breasts if they're a confused girl. castrate them if they're a confused boy. and what you have here in this. grotesque manipulation of children's. bodies is literally the sacrifice of. children to an ideological Crusade and. the IDE iCal Crusade of gender ideology.

and in order for adults who want to men. who want to pretend to be women. primarily and women who want to pretend. to be men in order to justify their. existence they have to pull children. into the equation and say well it's an. innate experience you're born with it. and we're going to prove this by giving. them puberty blockers by putting them on. a conveyor belt to W surgery by screwing. them up for life which is what this. essentially. does that is a very good example of how.

problematic ideological uh obsessions. can be because what you end up with is a. situation where children's lives are. [ __ ] up in the name of an ideological. Crusade and that's really bad and it's. real and it's happening yeah and it's so. bizarre to watch people slide into this. cult-like thinking in mass and you see. millions of people that support this but. I think it's enough of a mind [ __ ] to.

wake up the people that aren't in the. haze of it all and go hey this is. something you actually have to fight. back against cuz this isn't saying I. think um The Optimist in me thinks that. in the future in 20 years or so people. will look back at this period and they. will say hold on you gave kids puberty. blocking drugs you well they've already. stopped doing that in the UK yeah. they've stopped doing that in the UK we. have stopped doing that I mean you can. still get them privately but the. National Health Service has stopped um. prescribing puberty did you hear about. the guy in Canada this guy in Canada. that's suing the government because he.

wants a vagina yeah he so he has a penis. he want a penis and a vagina yeah he's. wants to be uh whatever he wants to be. non-binary yeah like literally yeah. someone WR someone wrote an article for. for spiked where I work saying well this. means he can go [ __ ] himself right if. he's got both but also here's the. question where do you put. it I mean you're running out of space. there fella like if you want both I mean. this might be a [ __ ] lawsuit we. might be able to just like stop this. with a.

biologist where you going to put it. right where is it going to go there's no. room buddy it's um I mean it's who could. have guessed we would be having this. conversation if you went back 10 years. even five years you would never have. imagine that we'd be having a. conversation like this where someone. wants a dick in a vagina at the same. time is that more offensive than the guy. who wants to make breast milk for his. baby that's really bad there was yeah. Uber bizarre so there's this yeah this. case in Britain of the breastfeeding I.

think it's Canada as well yeah there's. there was one in the UK what was. interesting about the UK is experiences. that there was uh ITV News which is a. major news channel in Britain they. interviewed women who are struggling uh. as a consequence of the cost of living. crisis and one of the women they. interviewed is a man it's a bloke in a. dress who claims to be a mother of a. child and it turns out that this person. breastfeeds his child what that means is. he gets his baby to suck on his male.

nipple his useless milk-free. non-lactating male nipple we lactate now. this is the point there's certain. medications that you can give a. biological male and he'll produce breast. milk yeah but it's not milk it's not. real it's not are you a connoisseur sir. have you had a good tit milk Simo visit. you and give you some samplings it's not. what it's not what nature intended is it. but is it but every man biologically. start start off as a female in the womb.

and it's the introduction of. testosterone and all the factors and the. XY chromosome that's what turns us into. male but we start off as female so do we. have the hardware and is this medication. just igniting I mean it's grotesque. don't get me wrong and it's also it. seems weird that you're having a baby. suck on your tits and you're a guy it. seems oddly sexual right in a way that. it doesn't seem like with a woman at all. right it's like all of a sudden like. what are you doing why are you doing. that why do you want to do that but. think about it if if you saw a a man who.

looks like a man a man who looks like. you on the street with a baby attached. to his nipple you'd call the cops you. punch him in the face you'd do something. so I definitely wouldn't punch him if. the baby was in his arms let take the. baby away first K the baby call social. services you be going a jail yeah but. the no the thing about um breastfeeding. men that I find in gruesomely. interesting is that firstly it's just. not true that men can lactate in the. same way that women can and the drugs. that they take in order to mimic.

lactation actually makes whatever. secretion comes from their horrible. nipples worse for the baby right because. it's full of drugs it's full of right. it's full of really gross content so it. should it just shouldn't happen but it's. an it's an indication of how far Society. has gone down the Avenue of validating. everyone's identity so we even have to. validate the identity of the freaky man. who thinks he has the right and the. ability to breastfeed feed his kid and.

if you stand up and say no this is not. breastfeeding this is a form of child. abuse a man shouldn't put his nipple in. a child's mouth you are denounced as a. transphobe you are denounced as a bigot. you are denounced as someone who is a. horrible person so that's oh that's also. his HIV positive I mean which is cool. what can you what can you even say at. this stage hold on a second put that. back up person also revealed that he was. HIV posit positive and acknowledged that. the transmission of the condition to his. baby through milk is possible if viral.

load becomes detectable despite having. been continuously monitor for 18 and a. half years of his life he also promised. to undergo testing monthly to mitigate. risk what a sweetheart you to test his. HIV positive fake tit milk it's. unbelievable it's unbelievable and. everybody's like yeah you're not crazy. shouldn't be in jail that's the problem. the problem I mean there've always been. freaks there've always been weirdos. there've always been absolute losers and. tossers who do bad things to kids and.

everyone else the problem is society. nodding along and saying this is. fabulous look at this new identity this. man is is breastfeeding a child the. problem is um people aiding and abetting. these perversions by dressing them up as. gender identities that's the real. problem here but it's crazy because. there are people that identify with. being a woman and I have no problem with. them living their life as a woman the. problem is without any scrutiny if you. can't scrutinize each person as an.

individual and if they're in a protected. class if they're automatically you know. if they say that they're a woman like. instantaneously you have to absolve them. of the all their sex offender record. like you let them walk around the. women's room with a heart on no one can. say anything no it's it that's just. crazy like now you now you've crossed. this line into cult thinking and I know. you don't want to give up any ground. because if you give up ground then you. think the bigots are winning so it's. like this thing where this battle.

between open-minded people that believe. in people's freedom to live their life. however they want and the acknowledgment. that perverts and psychos are real. things there's psychos there's people. that want to wear your skin and if they. can if they can hang out in the women's. room with you these are the same kind of. people that would do that understand. that if you just say that any man who. says he's a woman you have to just take. them at their word you are enabling. psychos like real full-on serial killers.

to just go into the women's room and. you're hoping that they don't have a. knife in their bag you're hoping they're. not going to do something crazy you're. hoping they're not going to attack. someone you're hoping they're not going. to just start masturbating in front of. everybody like you you're you're. enabling someone who could be completely. schizophrenic absolutely out of their. mind should be in mental health care but. you're allowing them to just wander. around the women's room. with their pants off and that's that's a.

real. thing doesn't change this concept of. people that are trans I've met people. that are trans like Blair white who's. this famous YouTuber who's trans who's. been on this you you think that this is. a woman I'm around a woman she seems. like a woman lives like a woman looks. like a woman acts like a woman you want. to be a woman you want to be Blair yeah. you're a woman I don't even think that's. a guy but then there's also perverts. yeah and if we don't look at people. individually if we lump everyone into. this one group we've gone Haywire in.

this age of information when we have so. much of an understanding of the human. psyche for us to ignore vast swaths of. everything that we've accumulated in the. under the the sanctum of gender ideology. that's crazy yeah I mean that's crazy. yeah I I agree my position on it is is. pretty simple which is that you can. dress however you want you can identify. however you want you can change your. name from Joe to Joanna you can do all.

those things I have no problem with that. at all you can call yourself trans you. can dress yourself up that's fine but. when you try to force other people to. validate and acknowledge your identity. that's where I have a problem right. because the thing is that I if you're. dressing up and redefining yourself and. changing your name and changing your. look that's your freedom but if you then. say well every other woman on the planet. has to accept my so-called Womanhood and. let me into women's spaces let me. partake in women's sports let me stand.

for positions that are traditionally. reserved for women then you're. interfering with their freedom their. freedom of conscience their freedom of. belief their freedom to to ex to. understand biology that there are men. and women and that they are different so. when you have a man and I would say this. goes for any man both for the perverts. who walk around with their tessent knobs. hanging out in a women's changing rooms. and also the men who supposedly look. like women I think it goes for all of. them when we demand that they should.

have access to women's spaces what we're. really saying is that women have to. sacrifice their own freedom of. conscience and freedom of belief and. genuflect to these men's identities and. accept these men's identities and so. there was a case in um Los Angeles where. there was a man in a spa and he was. walking around in he was semi he was. naked and he was semi erect and there. were women and minors in that women's. changing rooms while he was doing that. and we had lots of trans people defend.

trans rights activists defending his. right to do that that's a defense of. Flasher rights this is the right to. flash women that's what we're talking. about here it gets dressed up as trans. rights but fundamentally it's the right. of a man to show his knob to a woman who. doesn't want to see it and that's where. I have a problem when you try to force. other people to bow down to your own. identity what's really crazy is women. that support it like do you not I. understand like the whole deal with like.

Title 9 in women's sports has always. been keep men from competing with women. because it's not fair you're allowing. men to compete with you and you're doing. it under the GU and it's not compete. with you because the female athletes. almost unanimously don't want it yeah. they don't want it the ones who say they. wanted a virtue signaling or they're at. the end of their career or they don't. have a stake in it or they're just dumb. it's just dumb because it's it's such. it's cheating at the highest level. humanly possible you're pretending. you're a different gender and you're.

just dominating women and it's [ __ ]. crazy that that women will go along with. it it is treat men but it's also men. like by saying you're a woman you're. with them in some strange way and you're. allowing Like A Parasite to get into. your organism and infect it and this is. what everybody's always concerned about. like. men dominating women. and but entering into women's spaces the.

whole reason why they have women gyms. when the [ __ ] have you ever seen a men. only gym they don't exist even Marshall. arts gyms go to a Muay Thai gym there's. women all over the place there's all. kinds of people everybody can go but a. woman's only gym exists for a specific. reason because there's dudes that have. [ __ ] heart on that want to walk. around the women's room and if if you. allow these perverts to pretend they're. women and join these women spaces you're. letting the wolf into the hen house. absolutely and sports is the perfect.

example of how destructive this can be I. mean you look at Leah Thomas the swimmer. yes he's a bloke he's what 6'4 he's. absolutely huge he's he's got all the. biological benefits that come from male. puberty which is bigger muscles bigger. hands uh lungs everything all that stuff. that we know about and there's a. photograph of him diving off the. platform and the female swimmers next to. him and he is so much further out than. those women when he's diving because he.

has the propulsion that comes with that. strength that is the gift of male. puberty not just male puberty but intact. intact and he apparently according to. reports was parading around the women's. changing room so that you have this so. Riley Gaines makes the point yes that. Not only was he cheating by taking part. in a women's sport where he doesn't. belong but he was also allegedly walking. around naked in a women's changing rooms. and shown his penis to people who who. didn't want to see it which is why you. have this double whammy of misogyny.

let's call it what it is this is a. double whammy of misogyny you're. screwing up women's sports you're. screwing up women's right to excel in a. sport that they have devoted their lives. to and you're flashing at women who. don't want to see your junk it's a. double whammy of misogyny and what's. really crazy to me is that you have. so-called progressives so-called. leftists the people who spent the past. 10 years going on about me too and. feminism and women's rights cheer in. this on cheering on the obliteration of.

women's sports cheering on the male. cheating against women cheering on uh. male flashing at women so the the extent. to which the world has been turned. upside down by the woke ideology I think. sometimes we underestimate just how. crazy things have got well it got so. crazy that Riley gains who had a draw. with this person like literally to the. one tenth of a second which very very. very rarely happen. so they only had one Trophy and they.

gave it to Leah yeah which is insane you. got a 6'4 biological male who had a draw. with a 5 foot5 female and you gave it to. the male that's because you're in a. [ __ ] cult but think about how. brilliant someone like Riley Riley. Gaines has to be to get so close to to. be small diminutive and yet to get so. close to a 6'4 bloke who's who was a. pretty good swimmer even amongst men but.

far less good than he was when he went. into the women that even C 462 in the. country versus way way down but he was a. pretty good swimmer but imagine how. brilliant she must be to have got so. close to him uh she gave her life to. this she trained I'm sure she trained. every single day for hours on end and. she really upped her game and she became. excellent her at her Sport and then in. wals is this lanky bloke and says I'm. going to take your Awards away from you. and that to me it it stinks of misogyny.

it stinks of unfairness it is cheating. but again it's society's willingness to. go along with this Insanity that is the. real problem well that's what's bizarre. the bizarre thing is the willingness to. go along with it and the unwillingness. especially by whether it's the. NCAA or whoever it is that's dealing. with these these situations when they. come up this denial of biological. reality I don't know if you saw the uh. NCAA the one of the women who was a.

representative was having a conversation. with Ted Cruz about biological men. competing in women's sports and he was. trying to ask the question like why do. we have women's sports like if why don't. we just have everybody compete against. everybody why do we have and the women. was just trying to dance around this and. didn't want just like Toro just like she. just she was doing like mental. gymnastics and it's so crazy to watch. people that are either public. intellectuals or people that are at the.

head of these very important. organizations for amateur Athletics and. just not be able to talk about reality. yeah and to live in this. bizarre side world like we passed into a. neighboring Dimension where logic is. just out the window and this one thing. takes over above everything and there's. all these grifters that are involved in. this there's grifter on the race side. there's grifters on the gender side.

there's grifters all around and they're. always talking to the president they're. always in the White House they're always. on the news and it's a wild time to to. try to be sane yeah and to try to get. like a balanced view of what is. happening and how far can this go like. at a certain point in time does. everybody have to say hold the [ __ ] on. like what are you doing what is everyone. doing some people are trying to say that. my college athletics organization bans.

trans athletes from participating in. women's sports the. niia made its decision on Monday what is. uh the difference between what is that. one uh way smaller schools like colleges. it's in the article it says it's. 241 different colleges that are part of. this and how does the NCAA treat it. right now uh that's the way you guys. were just talking I think I don't think. they've made any changes in you got to. you got to stop it kids you got to stop. it if and here's the nut one there was. some trans athlete that they said well.

what about if we just have a trans. Division and uh this trans athlete was. like no that that limits my ability to. thrive yeah yeah it Thrive as a. biological male competing in. weightlifting against women it's if you. think about how bad things have got in a. short period of time right imagine you. went to a bar or a pub as we call them. in England um 10 15 years ago and there. was a man who tried to go into the. women's bathroom right right they would. there would have been uproar people.

would have dragged him out someone would. have given him a slap and said listen. mate get yourself together what are you. playing at 2024 that's seen as a normal. acceptable thing and if you complain. about it you're the problem so at the. moment you have um biological males some. of them dressed as women some of them. supposedly look like women although I. really dislike that idea because I don't. think woman is a look woman is a is a. real thing it is a real thing but some. of them really look like women yeah. that's real too we have to acknowledge.

that some of them look like women but. they're not women and I think we have to. be honest about that that's true right. and I think biological males they're. biolog they're men and and so the. question has to become there's a case in. Australia at the moment where um a woman. a a real woman as we have to say. nowadays um set up an app and this was. an app for women to get together and. share information to communicate to make. friendships and so on and a biological. male who claims to be a woman tried to. join the app and he was booted out and.

he really doesn't look like a woman he. is just a big bloke in a dress and now. there's a court case there's a federal. court case in America where this bloke. is demanding his right to access this. space and I think what we have is this. really surreal situation where even. after years of feminism and some. feminism was good right it really did. liberate women from drudgery and gave. them the right to vote gave them the. right to work I think that those were. wonderful leaps forward for Humanity the.

equalization of women with men was a. wonderful thing some of the feminism was. bad victim feminism um me too I think. was quite hysterical and led to the uh. uh demonization and Punishment of men. often on the basis of no evidence at all. but generally speaking uh we've had. feminism for the past 100 years or so. and yet right now in 2024 we have a. situation where if you want to be. considered a good Progressive person you. have to support the right of men to. cheat and Sport you have to support the.

right of men to go into a women's. changing rooms and show people their. penis you have to support the right of. men to go into a women's domestic. violence shelter and demand assistance. you have to support the right of men who. commit crimes including rape to be. placed in women's prisons and that's. literally happened in the UK it's. happened in America as well right so you. have to support the right of men to. invade every single space that all of us. previously acknowledged as being for. women only if you want to be considered. a good Progressive person that is a.

warping of principle of the like we. haven't seen in a very long time and I. think it's really worth trying to get to. grips with what's going on here yeah. it's insanely bizarre and the adherence. to this ideology even even when the. person's a murderer there was a story in. the New York Times about this guy who. had beheaded his neighbor you know the. story yeah it's the craziest story this. it was a woman a woman beheaded her her. neighbor. like that sounds crazy like how many. women chop people's heads off turns out.

it's not really a woman it's a. biological man that was reported in the. New York Times it was also reported in. the BBC in in the UK as a woman and it. was woman on the BBC you had to wait. till the very last sentence before it. said this is a person who identifies as. a woman so most people don't read a. whole article they will just look at the. first few paragraphs and they don't even. say biological male who identifies as a. woman no they just say some but you know. the thing that's the news that's the.

news so scary but what's interesting to. me about that story in particular is. that when I read it and I think this guy. is like 80 years old he's quite old he's. 80 and I remember thinking hold on this. is really weird 80y old women don't. behead women I've never heard of. anything like that in my life. 80-year-old women tend to be pretty. frail um usually quite small they don't. usually have the strength to do. something as grotesque as that and then. you discover halfway through the article. in the nework York Times at the very end. of the article in the BBC that it's a.

bloke of course it's a bloke that's. right and but this is where we really. get to the orwellian stage of what's. going on right now because this is the. sacrifice of news to ideology and that. is literally the storyline of 1984. Winston Smith's job in 1984 in the. ministry of Truth is to rewrite news. articles to ensure that they Accord with. the ideology of the party and literally. what's happening right now news articles. are being Rewritten the truth is being.

sucked out of them the truth in this. case was that an 80-year-old man. murdered a woman and he had murdered. women previously in fact um that was the. truth the truth was sucked out and it. was replaced with a lie and the lie was. that an 80-year-old woman had beheaded a. woman so you have this profoundly. orwellian interference with truth and. reality this remolding of reality so. that it suits the ideology of the ruling. class and that is right out of 1984 that.

really is the stuff of dystopia and that. is in indicative of I think of where. we're at right now it's also indicative. of a condition that takes place when. people are under extreme duress where. they sort of just they give in to. ideologies much easier and you know we. really saw that during co co people just. gave in and all of the sudden like. here's another one trust the. pharmaceutical drug companies to not lie. which was never the case nobody trusted.

them before that if you had pulled. people in. 2017 like after the Vio Scandal and. after we knew about the opioid crisis. and the Sackler family and all that if. you pulled people back then and asked. them what what their faith in the. pharmaceutical drug companies was and. how how many of them do you think are. lying oh my God it' be off the charts. most people distrust them most people. wouldn't think they'd be telling the. truth and then it switched over to if. you don't trust them you're a Nazi yeah. you're a a fascist you should die we. hope you get the disease and die you're.

a plague rat and that is just. immediately going into climate change. and a lot of the same hysterical people. who were up in arms about people's non-. willll to participate in experimental. medication now are like if you don't. 100% support climate change you don't. drive an electric car you're not doing. all the things that you're supposed to. be doing you you're on the wrong side of. everything you're on the wrong side of. history and if you try to Corner those. people and ask them for something is.

like so interesting and fascinating. about climate it's so bizarre that that. one got attached so like rigorously to. ideology because it's such it's a. fascinating conversation like what makes. like what is the difference between us. surviving and not surviving like what. degrees hotter would it get where we'd. be [ __ ] what degrees colder would it. get would' be [ __ ] like how lucky are. we that we're on this planet that's. protected by a moon that's the perfect. distance from the Sun like holy [ __ ].

like this is fragile but what's. interesting about both of those issues. covid and um climate change is that what. people will say is that in a time of. Crisis we can't afford the luxury of. dissent or we can't for you but you. don't even understand it that was my. point is like these people that will. argue like violently that you should. adhere to CL when you start asking them. questions like what percentage of carbon. is in the atmosphere like what is the. quences of it raising or lowering what's. the what's the negative consequences of.

it lowering but they and they can't. answer that stuff and and the thing is. that you know my retort to those people. on both of those issues covid and. climate change is that it's precisely in. a time of Crisis or a challenge to. society or some problem external problem. that could cause problems for us it's. precisely in that time that freedom of. speech and the right to descent and the. right to express alternative views. becomes more important not less. important and what happened with the. outbreak of in March 2020 is that the.

opposite position was taken by. governments across the world and what. they essentially said was this is a. serious virus this a Ser it's a it's a. modern-day plague we can't afford any. form of dissent we can't afford any form. of questioning or any deviance from the. lockdown narrative and therefore we will. punish it severely as and when it arises. that was entirely the wrong approach. because if you're going to lock down a. whole society in the UK we were we were. put under house arrest we were allowed. to leave our homes once a day a hotline.

was set up by the cops so that you could. report your neighbors if they left their. house more than once a day uh and and. this it was a completely surreal. situation where we had the utter. decimation of civil liberty in a way. that had not happened ever before in the. history of our country and yet we were. told this is not the time to raise. questions this is not the time for. debate debate is a luxury that we can't. afford until we go back to normal that. is utterly wrong it's precisely when.

there is an issue facing our society a. real confronting problem that we need to. have as free a discussion as possible in. order that we might have made the right. decision in March 2020 in my view which. is that rather than locking down we. should have had a a Swedish style. scenario where people were given advice. you know you might not want to go here. you might not want to go there but we're. going to leave schools open we're going. to let you make your own decisions. trusting people to make their own. decisions galvanizing people to come. together as a community in order to help.

those who might be affected by covid. that would have been a far better. alternative to this uh brutish locking. down of the entire of society so that. people's freedom was completely and. utterly crushed but it's a good example. of how when you sideline debate when you. restrict freedom of speech and freedom. of dissent you end up with really. tyrannical situations puberty blockers. the CL The Net Zero hysteria the co. lockdowns all of those in some ways are. a product of crushing dissent crushing.

freedom of speech restricting people's. right to put their hand in the air and. say hold on is this the right thing to. do so freedom of speech I think is. essential to all of these questions and. the right of our society to do the right. thing rather than making these terrible. mistakes without a doubt and that was. one of the most terrifying things about. the Twitter files was finding out that. our own government was involved D in. limiting the freedom of speech of.

Experts of people from Stanford and. Harvard who were dissenting about the. what the way things were handled during. the pandemic that you're you're. literally deciding that some of the. smartest people on Earth shouldn't be. allowed to talk because they don't fit. this narrative that we all need to. follow in order to survive I'm hoping. that most people woke the [ __ ] up after. that and even if you went along with it. in the beginning and you haven't. apologized or you haven't ented to the. fact that you were incorrect even even.

if you haven't you haven't just accepted. entirely you there's a part of you that. knows the world got [ __ ] over there's. a part of you that knows so when some. more nonsense comes around maybe Hold. the Line a little better this time yeah. and maybe next time when you're forced. to adhere to very specific rules that. are are are designed. to save us from whatever thing that they. have going on whether like starvation we. have to give all the Farms over to the.

government because uh we can't allow. people to decide how much food gets made. and how much yeah then you have North. Korea yeah then that's that's it's a. slippery [ __ ] slope kids but it's. it's interesting to hear you say that. Joe because one thing I've realized with. covid-19 is that there's this real. culture of Amnesia has set in I was. thinking about this recently I was. thinking when I hang out with friends. and family members and have a drink or. whatever. I was thinking it's really weird no one. ever talks about lockdown you know when.

you meet friends right you will say do. you remember that thing that happened. five years ago do you remember that. thing you kind of go down memory lane. and you talk about things that happened. in the past I was thinking it's so. interesting that so few of the normal. people I know so not people in the media. not people who are on podcasts not. people who are involved in political. discussion like like we are normal. people never go down the memory lane of. of lockdown and Co they it's like it's. become this black spot in people's minds. and I think it's because um people don't.

like what they became during that period. they don't like what became of their. societies they feel an element of shame. I think that our society so speedily. turned from being relatively free to. being completely dictatorial to the. extent that we were told when we could. leave our house where we ratting on each. other and we were ratting on each other. we became snitches it was snitcher. culture as well um you know and even I. have had elements of Amnesia setting in.

so I every now and then I remember. things that happened in the UK like um. you know people the this the authorities. put yellow tape on park benches so that. you wouldn't be able to sit on a bench. there was one incident where they used. the police used drones to spy on people. walking their dogs to make sure that. they weren't walking their dog more than. once a day and even I I I suddenly have. flashes of memory and I have to kind of. Google to make sure that these things. actually happened arresting people in.

Australia just tackling them because. they didn't have masks on right and and. it's like um it's like the tianan square. phenomenon to a certain extent or that's. forced Amnesia that's the government. saying look we are going to force you to. forget that incident in 1989 we don't. want you to remember it so we're going. to Black it out this is a more voluntary. form of euthanasia it's not actually a. boot on the neck saying You must. misremember all this stuff it's more. voluntary but it's a similar process. where we feel I think such shame or.

horror or bewilderment at what became of. our societies and our willingness to let. it happen that the only way we can deal. with it is to pull over this comfort. blanket of Amnesia and to forget about. it so I I I think when people look back. on the lockdown moment I do think they. will ask how was it so easily enforced. why did so many people accept it why did. this Chinese IDE idea and we all accept. that China is an authoritarian State why.

did that spread so quickly to Italy and. then the United Kingdom and then to. America how did this stuff happen yeah. and how did no one recognize it yeah and. everyone sort of complied even public. intellectuals fearfully. complied didn't didn't in any way. question that may maybe this is like. every other time that something big has. come up you've been lied to well you. know Neil Ferguson from Imperial College. who was one of the the modelers of. covid-19 pretty controversial guy.

because his models for what would happen. with the disease if we didn't lock down. they informed the actions of governments. across Europe especially the British. government um he gave an interview to. the Times newspaper a couple of years. ago in which he had this really. interesting line where he said we saw. what was happening in China and we never. thought we could get away with it here. but then we did and it was just such an. interesting turn of phrase now he might. he might not have meant but it was so. revealing of the the mindset of people.

in power in the United Kingdom and the. United Kingdom is a is a nation in which. I would argue the modern idea of freedom. was born there press Freedom the the. right to vote the the freedom of speech. all of those things are such Central. ideals to the history of the United. Kingdom and yet we allowed this tyranny. to wash over us we allowed descent to be. crushed we allowed people to be locked. into their homes we allowed park benches. to be covered up with yellow tape and. and the question of why and how that. happened is one it's a reckoning that.

we're not prepared to have yet but we. need to have it you hear what's. happening Brazil right now what's. happening in Brazil in Brazil they are. trying to get Twitter to suspend the. accounts of uh political opponents right. and Twitter's not willing to do it and. so they're going to lose all ad Revenue. in Brazil likely I I don't know what how. they're going to do it but they're. advocating for censorship at such a high. level that it's becoming like a it's.

it's a very strange crisis because it's. not being reported in mainstream media. you're not hearing about it unless it's. trending on Twitter it's one of those. things where you go okay what is the. news guys because this is like a big. Global event if they're really trying to. remove like imagine if Biden all of a. sudden removed Rand Paul and Ted Cruz. and have these people removed from. social media you can no longer post. studies that conflict with the fda's. reports you can no longer post anything.

you are now you're gone yeah your your. your voice is erased that's no one would. accept that that's insane that's insane. but that's apparently what's happening. right now in Brazil it's it's uh you. know the the role of social media in all. of this and it's great that Elon musk's. Twitter is standing up to it but because. the role of social media over the past. few years has been so Sinister and you. mentioned the Twitter files the pre musk. Twitter regime which Wasing to do the. bidding of the American government which. was a complete and utter um destruction.

of First Amendment rights you know just. because the government went behind. closed doors and said to its friends in. so in Silicon Valley please take this. stuff down that doesn't make it any less. of a government intervention in people's. into people's freedom to speak and. freedom to publish right so PE. governments have used they've outsourced. censorship to private companies and. we've seen the same thing in the UK. where. social media companies have forever been. called before politicians and they've.

been instructed to take this down take. that down so uh I think governments who. are too cowardly to censor uh uh through. law because they know it would be. unpopular they often use the back. channel of private companies they. Outsource the right to censorship to. these private companies and that's. happened in a huge number of times over. the past decade but it amounts to the. same thing which is State censorship. with the connivance and the complicity. of these companies so um I think one of.

the great crises of our times actually. is the crisis of freedom of speech. because freedom of speech really is the. thing that will is the best guard. against irrationalism it's the best. guard against hysteria it's the best. guard against things like giving kids. puberty blockers when they shouldn't be. taking them and and against the men. parading around in women changing rooms. and against covid lockdowns and against. all the other Manas that have Afflicted. our societies over the past decade. freedom of speech is the G best guard.

against all of that it won't. successfully slay all of them but it. creates that space in which a dissenting. voice can say hold on let's wait a. minute let's just think about this let's. ask if it's correct to give a confused. 12-year-old kid a drug that will [ __ ] up. his body and likely make him infertile. and ruin his bones and possibly make him. depressed let's just wait and think and. ask is this the right thing to do and it.

was the it was the crushing of all those. voices of dissent on all of these issues. that allowed the ideology to sweep over. our society with such success so time. and again in relation to Brazil that. you've just mentioned and in relation to. our countries too I just think if we. unleash free speaking and allow people. to express their dissenting views a lot. of these problems they might still. happen. but we would have the opportunity to. Reign them in yeah well we would.

definitely. have an ability. to if you don't have dissenting voices. that's fine if you're right and if. you're on the right side and that's the. problem with people they all love to. think that they're right and we have to. shut these other people up yeah these. people these anti-climate change people. they're going to get us killed who gives. the [ __ ] would happen a thousand years. ago we know what right now we got to do. something but you it's so it I think. people's devaluation of freedom of. speech and dissent is so curious because.

the way I always see it is that every. freedom we enjoy is the gift of heresy. it's the gift of people in the past who. put their head above the parit and said. the thing that you weren't supposed to. say sure every single Freedom everything. everything uh you know one of the. examples in my book a Heretics Manifesto. one of the examples I give is William. Tindale who was this Firebrand protest. English Protestant in the early 1800s. who did something that changed the world. forever he translated the Bible into.

English you weren't allowed to publish. the Bible in English It could only P be. published in Latin because it was only. supposed to be read by priests by the. educated classes it wasn't for the. riffraff it was wasn't for the for the. rabble and it was punishable by death to. P publish the Bible in English and he. said no I don't give a damn people need. to be able to read the word the word of. God for themselves so he went to Germany. which was going through the Protestant. Reformation and he published the Bible.

in English and it was Spirited back into. England it was snuck back in under piles. of grain and his supporters would. distribute it amongst the people and it. was read in pubs and by candle light in. case the police came knocking that's. crazy and what's interest what's so. interesting and important about this. story is firstly that he was willing to. descent to such a degree that he risked. his life he was eventually caught and um. burnt at the stage. for the crime of translating the Bible. into English but the other thing that's.

interesting this is 1530s 1536 time as. Martin Luther was translating that's why. he went to Germany so he could do it. there and then get it back to England. but what's interesting about it is that. lots of people have forgotten William. tindale's name there's a statue of him. um in London on the embankment they. burned him at the Stak um they gave him. the they they uh killed him first that. was the only privilege they gave him. they killed him first and then burnt him. at the steak but what was interest. what's interesting about this story and.

there are so many others in history is. that people underestimate the extent to. which our freedom today descends from. the actions of people like that even. your right to read the Bible in English. your right to uh access the word of God. yourself should you want to comes from. people who were willing to risk life and. limb in order to do something that you. weren't supposed to do that it was. forbidden to do that it was verot and it. was illegal so every time I see people.

crushing dissent whether it's on the. gender issue whether it's on covid. whether it's on climate change whether. it's on anything else I just think to. myself you have no idea of how the. extent to which your own luxurious life. your relatively free life the position. you have in society today is the gift of. people in the past who were willing to. put their head above the parut and say. the thing you shouldn't say so we. underestimate that at our Peril and I. think it is really important to remind.

people that heresy is essential to. freedom and allowing people to be. heretical I think is very. important and in this time when things. are so divided it's such a dangerous. thing because so many ideas are. connected to one IDE ideology or the. other either you're with us or against. us yeah and bizarre things are connected. politically and some very strange way. you know there's certain subjects if you. bring them up oh I I can kind of make an.

assumption about the whole group of. ideas that you subscribe to yeah that's. that's also a function of limiting. freedom of speech too and creating these. Echo Chambers and it's like yeah exactly. and you know Jamie can we get some. coffee in here we forgot to get our. coffee thanks. sir we can keep going yeah yeah we're. still going um I I think the that's. absolutely right and you know freedom of. speech I think people even people on our.

side of the discussion as we might like. to call it I think they underestimate. the power of freedom of speech it's. often presented as you know freedom of. speech is the thing that allows us. to um settle discussions without. violence and to ensure that everyone. gets to express their point of view. that's true but too often I think. freedom of speech is presented almost as. like a soothing Bal you know the thing. that calms Society down I think it's. more important than that freedom of. speech is the thing that makes us human. freedom of speech is the thing that.

allows us to be genuinely autonomous. people who make up our minds for. ourselves under systems of censorship. what happens is that we are grotesquely. infantilized we are reduced to the level. of children whose Minds will be. furnished with the ideas that Society. thinks are good rather than having the. right to make up our minds for ourselves. you know the great slave slavery. abolitionist Frederick Douglas made this. point he said um censorship is a double. crime it's firstly the crime of stopping.

someone from saying what they want to. say which is terrible but it's also the. crime of stopping other people from. hearing everything and deciding for. themselves what is true and what is. false what is right and what is wrong. and it's that impact of censorship that. we I think underestimate the importance. of because what censorship does it. doesn't just stop you from you know when. you had that um those Millennial [ __ ]. at Spotify fre out over Joe Rogan and. his podcast and vaccination Etc it. doesn't doesn't only threaten to.

restrict someone like you and other. individuals from saying what you want to. say it also deprives Ordinary People the. public the masses of the right to hear. everything and to use their mental and. moral muscles you know John Milton made. this point in England in the 1640s he. said uh the moral muscles are like the. physical muscles they benefit from. exercise and just as if you let your. physical muscles go to waste you'll. become a bit of a wreck similarly if you.

let your moral muscles go to waste. you'll become a moral wreck as well. because you will become an aplike. creature who has to be told what to. think who has to be told how to behave. it's far preferable I think to allow. people to exercise their moral muscles. to use them on a daily basis you know we. go to the gym for our physical muscles. we should be able to exercise our moral. muscles in public Life by hearing all. sorts of opinions and by deciding for. ourselves using our own critical. faculties what we think is right and.

what we think is wrong unquestionably. and well said I I think it's also a. function of what's going on today with. the access to the internet and social. media and the addiction that almost. everyone has to both of those things. that participates in them you you're. you're getting so much information and. you're getting it in a way that human. beings have never experienced before and. and it's EAS easily manipulated and I. think that's the argument for what. they're doing on Tik Tok in America.

versus what they're doing on Tik Tock in. China but I think it's also being. manipulated because that's what we like. we we like we gravitate towards those. things that they show us and it upsets. us that they know what we like yeah you. know this is part of it but in China. they have a Tik Tock that kids aren't. allowed on after 10 p.m. it uh. accentuates uh athletic accomplishments. martial arts science projects and it's. it's designed to Foster this sense of uh. selfworth and and performance and that's.

how you want to if you want to build a. stronger Society that's what you would. encourage and if you want to diminish. the society that is run by your enemies. you would uh show them the the problem. with freedom here you're going to have. uh men with beards and long fingernails. teaching your kids about gender and. you're going to be a you're a plumber. and you're like what the [ __ ] what are. they doing to my kid over there and that. that's that's real too and we're all. like battling this in real time in a way. that's never happened before in the.

entire human race as far as we know I. think the you know the the issue with. social media which is a real issue and. Jonathan height was talking about this. uh with you and in his new book there is. a problem I think with kids hanging. around on social media all day long and. especially something like Tik Tok and if. you look at um I limit my social media. use as much as possible I'm only on. Instagram which is nicer than all the. other platforms because it's just rest. recipes and pictures of people's. holidays it's it's a bit more of a. bearable experience so I don't use.

Twitter I certainly don't use Tik Tok. I'm way too old for that um but lots of. young people do and I think what's. interesting about it is. that I I I fear one worry I have you may. disagree with me on this but I fear that. an anti-technology view is creeping in. amongst those of us who might be broadly. described as reasonable or anti-woke or. on the favor of on the side of of of um. rationality I do fear that an. anti-technology view is creeping in.

because I the problem as I see it with. the internet and with social media is. not so much the existence of these. things but the fact that they've molded. themselves around a pre-existing culture. so social media in a different era could. have been one of the most wonderful. things imaginable it could have been a. forum for spreading ideas or for um. proving to the world what a big man you. are what a strong woman you are and. saying look I'm taking control of my. life it could have had different impact. entirely but what's happened is that. social media has emerged in an era in.

which young people in particular are. encouraged to be hyper fragile to mess. around with their gender in a way that. they shouldn't to con conceive of. themselves as mentally ill when they're. not mentally ill so you have on Tik Tok. now kids self- diagnosing themselves. there will literally be um videos on Tik. Tok saying do you have these four. different symptoms if you do you have. ADHD you have iCal depression you're. bipolar and it's it's four things that. everyone has do you occasionally feel.

unhappy do you occasionally struggle to. meet deadlines and so what I think the. problem with social media is not the. technology itself not the ability of. people to communicate as freely as. social media allows not even necessarily. the fact that kids are on there all day. long although that is a problem it's. that it's molded itself around. pre-existing cultural Trends towards. hyper fragility self-obsession culture. of narcissism a culture of brittleness. and that I think has exacerbated the.

problems in society by allowing kids to. engage with that stuff all day long and. what is the root of all that thinking. and behavior what is the root of all the. fragility what's what's the root of all. the victim mentality where does it. begin I think it's down to a culture of. narcissism Christopher lash wrote about. this in 1979 so that's a long time ago. so and I think when you say when you say. the word narcissism people think it just. means self-love right self- involvement.

and people will talk about the problem. of kids taking selfies all day long and. putting them online there's more to. narcissism than self-love in fact SE. narcissism is. usually triggered by self-doubt and I. think one of the one of the problems. with the culture of narcissism is. people's expectation that the world. should always reflect their image back. to them yeah so they cannot accept the. idea that the world is a tough place. it's a difficult place people aren't. going to buy into your gender identity.

people aren't going to accept that. you're a wonderful person you have to. prove yourself you have to use your. metal and your strength and your will. and your perseverance to demonstrate. what your virtues are and to prove. yourself in your community and in your. society and the problem with narcissism. is that it does away with all those. traditional expectations of having to. demonstrate who you are as a person and. it just has this instant expectation of. valid validation validate my identity. validate my pain validate my mental.

illness right prove to me that I am. right to be self-obsessed in the way. that I am so what the culture of. narcissism does is it forces people into. themselves in a very destructive and. dangerous way and at the moment that's. taking the form of kids saying I'm. fragile I'm mentally unbalanced I have. ADHD I have bipolar disorder they don't. have any of these things it's not true. uh ADHD is to a large extent a myth it's.

been massively overdiagnosed bipolar. disorder is being massively o. overdiagnosed I think what's happened is. that people covet these. uh these identities these mental health. identities as a way of explaining. everything that's wrong in their lives. there was a really interesting interview. with a mental health expert on the BBC a. few years ago and she said that people. come to her surgery and say please. diagnose me with bipolar disorder I'm.

convinced I've got it people CET these. kind of uh diagnoses as a way of. explaining every difficulty that they. encounter and it's incredibly. destructive because it. pathologizes what is probably just a. failure on their part to make their life. a success so in order to explain their. failure to make their life a success. they say well I must be mentally ill I. must have this I must have that. get experts to affirm and you get. experts to affirm it just as you get. experts to affirm someone's gender.

identity just as you get experts to. prescribe puberty blocking drugs but. then bipolar is real for some people. yeah which is a problem manic depression. as we used to call it but this is the. other issue with I think the uh culture. of hyper fragility and abig rer writes. about this in a brilliant new book um on. uh the overdiagnosis of uh uh mental. illness in kids in particular the pro. one of the problems with it. is that it distracts attention from. those who genuinely have mental. illnesses whether that be real issues of.

manic depression or schizophrenia or. clinical depression these are real. problems and I think when you have a. culture that devotes itself to. flattering the delusions of the young. who are convinced they are mentally ill. when they aren't you distract resources. and attention from those who actually. need them and so the narcissism. manifests itself in a person who's so. self-obsessed that they die diagnose. themselves with various illnesses in. order to either get treatment or to have.

an excuse for why their life is all. [ __ ] up yeah and to have attention it. it's a it's a very quick way to win. attention to say look look at this fancy. diagnosis I've got or look at this. exotic gender identity I have it's a way. of drawing eyes towards the self and. winning pity and sympathy and getting. attention for almost nothing yeah yeah. yeah and you're special now yeah and. that's very rewarding for young people. who've never felt special all of a. sudden they're special all a sudden. everyone loves them and then there's.

also if you live your life in this state. of anxiety and depression you're not. happy and then this thing is offered up. as a solution boy you can believe in. Solutions you'll join the [ __ ] Army. you'll you you believe in solutions to. your problems people do it all the time. like this is what I need and then you do. that I'm going to get married that's it. that'll fix it I'm going to get rich. that'll fix it nope yeah like there's. you got to figure what the [ __ ] is wrong. with you and it might not be becoming a. girl yeah you know you might be lured.

into that because you're getting all. this positive attention you might just. be a gay man yeah you know that's. possible too and a lot of them turn out. to be just that if you leave them alone. well there was a there's a a new study. out which shows that something that most. people knew anyway which is that most of. these gender confused kids. um for most of them it's a phase and. most of them turn out to be gay young. gay men or or lesbians. and this is uh a really good example of. why language matters because one of the.

great Crusades of the trans lobby at the. moment is to um ban conversion therapy. now we all think of conversion therapy. as the kind of pseudo science that is. used to try and turn a gay kids straight. right and we most of us frown upon this. we think it's ridiculous we think it's a. form of religious fundamentalism and you. know leave these kids alone but when the. trans Lobby says that they want to ban. conversion therapy very often what they. mean is that they want to restrict the. rights of doctors and even parents to.

say to their gender confused kid no. you're just a boy accept it you're a boy. and you're might be a gay boy so live. your life freely but you don't have to. go through surgery you don't have to. take drugs so actually what the trans. Lobby is calling for when they say we. want to ban conversion therapy is. conversion therapy they want to turn the. young gay boy into a so-called woman. in order to correct his sexual disorder. in order to make him the right gender.

and you know what other country does. this Iran Iran is second only to. Thailand in the number of uh gender. transition surgeries because you can't. be gay but you can be trans exactly and. exactly it's it's not doing this because. it's hyper woke and it reads Teen Vogue. and it listens to people at the guardian. it does it because it is violently. homophobic and it would rather have um a. man mutilated to become a so-called. woman rather than to have a gay man in. its Society so the fact that these.

homophobic and misogynistic Trends are. now making gains in Western Society I. think is indicative of a culture of. irrationalism that is taking over and. it's something that we got to push back. against and you're not hearing about. this. enough like if it wasn't for. conversations like this if it wasn't for. the internet you're you're not hearing. this anywhere you're not hearing. all the factors that are falling into. place that's allowing this stuff to sort.

of be accepted worldwide you're not. hearing this enough it's just happening. and most people are like what is going. on and they don't have the ability to. talk out you your organization that you. are employed by has a specific language. that would restrict you from discussing. things the like you could literally get. fired if you decide not to call this man. who wears a dress a woman you will get. fired you'll be labeled a bigot and. that's also self-censorship sets in and.

then you don't want to talk out about. anything else as well you just want to. keep your job and then you become this. miserable person who's just compliant. all day yeah you're not a valid human. being you're you're subservient to this. stupid [ __ ] ideology that's swept. across the world like wildfire yeah well. that that it's that's another function. of censorship in fact and um one of the. points I make in a Heretics Manifesto is. that um you know when you say that. there's a new form of heresy hunting. today people will say oh calm down you. know no one's being burnt at the stake.

no one's having their head chopped off. or criticizing Jesus or or the or the. the prime minister or whatever but there. are new forms of heresy hunting you. don't suffer death but you suffer social. death you suffer professional death you. may very well be expelled from polite. Society you might even lose your job as. a consequence of saying men are not. women as a consequence of saying uh the. climate change problem has been. exaggerated as a consequence of saying I. don't think we should have locked down. our societies people have suffered real. consequences as a con as a result of.

expressing those ideas so that it is a. new form of witch hunting it is a new. form of uh putting people in a. metaphorical stock and throwing Rotten. Tomatoes at them because they have the. supposedly wrong views and so heresy. hunting has come back in and one of the. points I make in my book is that cancel. culture is just not a sufficient phrase. to describe what we're living through I. like the phrase cancel culture I use it. all the time it's alliterative it's. amusing it does the job of describing.

generally what's happening but it's not. profound or sufficient enough to. describe the tyrannical culture that we. find ourselves rubbing up against all. the time one in which there is. extraordinary social pressure on people. to have the right opinions on all the. various issues gender race climate. everything else it's a very profound. social pressure that I think people feel. in a very real way and the great. accomplishment SoCal of cancel culture.

is not that it takes down big names. every now and then although it does do. that but it sends a signal to the rest. of society which is you better watch. yourself because if JK Rowling can be. subjected to rape threats and death. threats every single day of her life for. expressing biological truth imagine what. could happen to you imagine what could. happen to you the lowly person you have. no money you're not a successful author. you're not rich you're not a cultural. Institution imagine what could happen to. you imagine how swiftly you might lose. your job imagine how swiftly you might. be expelled from polite Society so.

cancel culture sends this signal it has. this trickle down effect where it warns. Ordinary People the mere mortals among. us not to say the things you're not. supposed to say because the consequences. are so severe it's also this very. strange time where someone can say. something extremely offensive towards a. very popular and well- Lov person and no. one pushes back against them because. they're afraid that it's going to come. after them yeah they're hyper.

aggressive hyper like. insulting and the way they they talk. about her just you could use the worst. majores to describe her just by saying. the worst transphobic homophobic like. whatever you want to call her you could. say the the most horrific far right you. know yeah you could say all this crazy. [ __ ] and no push back yeah not only that. that all the public will hear is how. many people are mad at JK Rawling yeah. no one will stand up and say Hey [ __ ].

you yeah like what are you talking about. this is a woman and she's talking about. biological fact now if you want to. disagree with biological fact openly. that's a different conversation and you. should probably do that with someone. who's willing to engage in you with you. in this subject and it'll be. instantaneously clear that what you're. saying is nonsense yeah but if you could. just attack this lady online and then. everyone's scared that that's going to. come for them so everybody stands back. and says nothing that's right and if you.

look at the like in the British. newspapers which I read every day they. will often say JK Rowling in another. storm swept up in another controversy. that's the headline and then you look at. the article and what it is is that she. referred to as a biological male as he. right yeah that's supposedly. misgendering I think it's correct. gendering but it's it's called. misgendering it's seen as a speech crime. and that's the controversy that's the. storm that she has swept up so people. get this impression that she's doing. something really outrageous and. dangerous when in fact she's saying.

things that our societies have believed. for tens of thousands of years which is. that there are men and there are women. and they are not the same thing and I. think it's you know what's interesting. about the JK Rowling phenomenon is that. there's a real culture of moral. cowardice around. this within the media elit and within. the political establishment JK Rowling. is a cultural institution in the United. Kingdom she has brought so much money. into that country into our country she's.

a global phenomenon who has been really. done uh great things for the UK but so. few members of the political. establishment are willing to stand up. for her when people are sending her. death threats and saying I will rape you. um and and making songs about killing. her you would expect richy sunak or some. other member of the government to say. look this is out of order and you've all. got to calm down but they're so un. willing to do that because they're. worried that they too will be accused of. transphobia and what we have seen over.

the past few years is this creation of a. an a grammar of condemnation that is. used to demonize people who have. supposedly incorrect thoughts so if you. uh Express biological truth you're a. transphobe if you criticize any aspect. of Islam or the Quran you're an. islamophobe if you question any aspect. of climate change alarmism you're a. climate change denier and by the way the. word Den comes directly from the. Inquisition the people who were dragged. before the Inquisition were accused of. being deniers of Christ so this language.

has emerged that is used to paint people. as being beyond the pale as being unfit. for polite society and when you look at. it actually what they're saying is just. perfectly normal things a man is not a. woman climate change might be a problem. but it's not the end of the world um. Islam is people should have the freedom. to worship Islam but it's a bit of a. crazy religion in some ways these are. perfectly legitimate views to hold but. they are defined as modern-day.

blasphemies in order that people can be. silenced and and crushed and that's the. real problem I think it's a huge problem. and if I want to fully put on my tinf. foil. hat please do really I'm going to secure. it with a chin. strap um if AI was sentient and if AI. would want to ensure. compliance first of all if a a I was. sensient I don't think it has any. obligation to let us know why would it I. think it would just acquire more.

resources and just stay in the shadows. and it just keep functioning as an. organism if if if it wanted things to. collapse to a point where people are. incapable of sorting things out amongst. themselves they are so far gone they're. so far down the rabbit hole of ideology. and of tribal conflict that it's. impossible it's never going to work out. it's going to be a civil war unless we. let AI take over you know and then we. let AI govern things cuz AI is going to.

look at things logically and it's going. to find all the problems that exist in. our society it's going to fix them it's. going to allocate the money fairly it's. not going to have any corruption it's. going to be this intelligent overseer. that just decides what everybody does in. order for the greater good of the. species on Earth you know I would love. to watch that movie where is doing it's. like iroot with Will Smith it's like. where AI is doing all this to us but I. think the truth is is is simpler and. more horrifying which is that we did it. to ourselves I think we did it to.

ourselves too but I think that if you. were going to take single celled. organisms and eventually progress it up. to the point where that thing. becomes the kind of creative humanlike. species that we are that can create. another form of life an intelligent form. of life that can utilize all of the. information that's available. instantaneously. and do it far superior to any human. being you want to like the only way to.

get these people to accept this we got. to like encourage them to [ __ ] off even. further encourage them further and do it. with algorithms and do it with just a. simple understanding of human psychology. and a slow overtime progression of our. willingness to give into censorship our. willingness to give into. authoritarianism our willingness to to. to believe that these other people. they're the source of your problems it's. these other people with less melanin or. more melanin or they're from here or. they're from there let more people in.

through the Border give them all money. don't give them any money to the poor. Americans but give a shitload of them to. the immigrants bring them in like all of. that if I was an intelligent species I. would say this is the best way to just. to wreck this whole thing so they need. us to run it just let it go wild as. possible have no no adults in the room. no no R you're let getting 16-year-old. to go talk to presidents about what they. should do with their oil but you know. it's like um but but what's what's good.

about the time we live in is that people. are pushing back against it so whether. it's uh whoever's doing this to us um. people are pushing back against it and. if you look at you know one of the. things that happens in the UK all the. time is amongst the kind of chattering. classes and the commentar they will. often say you know how on Earth did. Donald Trump get elected you know they. they say said it in 2016 they especially. said it in 2017 when he was inaugurated. you know that the screaming woman meme.

um that was uh that was expressed across. these kind of uh informed circles and I. often say to them look the election of. Donald Trump is the most logical thing. that has happened in American politics. in decades it makes perfect sense to me. that people would elect someone like him. even though I have many disagreements. with him and you know people will say. but he's a I often make the point that. working people in America wanted to send. a message to The Establishment they.

wanted to send a message to The. Establishment about how they've handled. the economy about their cultural. contempt for ordinary Americans for. working Americans I think it's really. important for people for workingclass. people to understand how much this new. Elite hates them it really hates them. with a visceral passion and we see it in. the United Kingdom and we see it in the. United States in the United states you. have the Hillary Clinton basket of. deplorables view of these people or Don. or um Biden referring to them as semi.

fascists or even going back to Barack. Obama who was probably more sensible. than those two saying these people cling. to their Bibles and their guns and. they're scared of foreigners in the UK. expresses itself with the uh description. of these people as gamon they're. referred to working class people who. vote for brexit is gam gamon is a. reference to their red faces you know. lower class middle-aged men red in in. the face they're called gam gamon is pig. meat right and it brings to mind um what.

Edmund Burke said about the Democratic. multitude in the 1700s and he referred. to them as the swiish multitude that. image of the pig the pig-like masses has. come back it's so important I think for. workingclass people to know that this. new establishment hates them with a. passion and that's why the workingclass. revolts against this establishment that. have taken place over the past decade or. so the election of trump the vote for. brexit the vote for various populist. parties in Europe is such an important.

turning point because this is Ordinary. People staking their claim to a voice in. public life and saying we matter our. economic needs matter our cultural. values matter our community matters our. our our families matter that's what. these people are saying and so when. people say you know Donald Trump is a. blunt instrument he's an unwi wiy cudle. for these people to use against the. establishment absolutely right but what. other instrument did they have what.

other weapon did they have you know that. trade unions have been decimated. communities have been decimated by this. ceaseless March of neoliberal values and. state intervention um the left has. utterly abandoned workingclass people. and has made itself an instrument of the. Bourgeois you know The identitarian. Graduate set that's what the left now. means so the working classes have been. left utterly denuded of any other. political mechanism through which to. make their voices heard so the fact that. they said okay we'll give Trump a punt.

makes perfect sense to me it's. absolutely logical there is no problem. with that at all so I think so one of. the positive things of of our time is. that whoever is doing all this crazy. stuff to us whether it's the robots or. Society itself I think it's Society. itself the good thing is people are. pushing back they're saying enough is. enough we don't want any more of this. crap shoved down our throats and we are. going to Rebel even if it's in a way.

that you disapprove of and this is. something that's important for people to. understand historically that has always. been the case there's always been. narratives and there's always been. people that push against those. narratives and there's always been a. conflict this idea that we're ever going. to exist in a society particularly one. today where I think it's greatly. accentuated by the access to social. media cuz the ability to complain and. people that are addicted to complaining. they're doing it all day long and. arguing all day.

long this there's never been a time. where people were completely at peace. yeah ideologically ever these are these. are ridiculous Notions that people keep. in their head they reminisce in a very. false way and it's just not the case as. someone who grew up during the Vietnam. War when that was happening the the. country was very divided the country was. extremely divided Ed you know I was. living on the west coast and there's you. know there was there was a lot of.

confusion in this country because it was. an unjust war that made no sense and. people were being forced to go over. there and fight it was a crazy time of. division and uh when the Vietnam War. ended it kind of like cooled off for a. little bit and then in the 80s we. started getting terrified of getting. bombed yeah that was that was during the. 80s that was the big fear that came upon. us so it's like I've seen these things. before they always exists it's just. right now it's hyper fed by social media. hyper fed where it's just out it's a.

wild fire that I don't know if we're. going to be able to put out but I think. it's what's interesting about today is. that there are it's like there are two. culture wars going on so there's the. there's the Social Media stuff right. there's these kind of slightly pantomime. conflicts taking place between um the. kind of identitarian left saying you. have to acknowledge my gender and my. right to have a a dick and a vagina at. the same time and all that crazy stuff. and then you have the kind of the.

right-wing elements on the very online. right who I don't particularly have a. problem with some of them are. interesting people and they're kind of. having this fight all day long on the. internet every day but in society more. broadly something I something more. important is happening which is that. ordinary people in their millions are. looking at all this stuff they're. reading all this stuff they're looking. at Saturday night Night Live and seeing. the blind contempt that these lovees and. these cultural figures have for them.

they're looking at things that Biden. says they're looking at the border and. this idea that who cares if the border. is poorest who cares if it's open it. doesn't matter they're looking at all. this stuff and they're saying this is. irrational this is dangerous The. Establishment poses as the adults in the. room but actually they're insane they. have insane views on biology on borders. on National Security on climate on. everything else and and on the economy. they're looking at all this and saying.

the voice of reason has to come back in. and they see themselves as the voice of. reason and I think they're right to see. themselves as the voice of reason and. it's like um we had this movement in. Britain in the 1840s called uh the. chartists and this was a movement to for. the right of men to vote because. working-class men at that point couldn't. vote and it was a a brilliant movement. for the right of working-class men to. vote and they had this weekly newspaper. and there's one article in that. newspaper which is very well known where. they said you know the priests and the.

academics and the rulers of of society. they pose as experts but actually the. ordinary man in the street the ordinary. woman in the street the person with a. normal job is far more of an expert than. they are because he lives in society in. a way that they don't he sees the. problems in in society in a way that. they in their rarified circles don't. so ordinary people have a Keener. understanding I think of the problems. afflicting their communities the.

problems afflicting their societies and. the problems afflicting their young. people and I think what's happened over. the past 10 years with the populist. revolts is an effort by those people to. say we are going to restore an element. of reason we're going to restore an. element of fairness in politics and. we're going to try and clip the wings of. this cranky establishment that's been. ruling over us for the past three or. four decades that's a wonderful moment I. think in our political life it it is and. Aliens might land too there's a lot.

going on and there's also tremendous. International conflict that's terrifying. all those things are happening. simultaneously yeah but on the um on the. international conflict that's I think. that's another example of where you know. if you look at sth of 7th of October. which is probably far too big big an. issue to get into now but I I flip. between pessimism and optim optimism. about what is happening to our societies. so often I feel optimistic when I see. Ordinary People pushing back against it. all but then you have in the wake of 7th.

of October and what can only be. described as I think one of the worst. moral meltdowns of modern times amongst. the educated Elites of Western Society. who when there was this clash. between barbarism and. civilization between an army of anti. semites and ordinary Jewish civilians in. the south of Israel they took the side.

of the barbarians we saw that on. campuses in America we saw it on. campuses in the United Kingdom yeah not. just the Palestinian people but Hamas. not the Palestinian people because when. you when you refer to Hamas as. barbarians people will say are you are. you calling Palestinians and Arabs. barbarians no we're not absolutely not. we're calling Hamas barbarians and what. happened you know for years and years uh. the left in in America and and Britain. especially the kind of Campus left they. posed as anti-fascists And yet when.

something very like fascism weared its. head again they took its side they posed. as being on the side of women and yet. when women were raped and butchered they. turned the other way they looked away or. they said it didn't happen they denied. it they pose as anti-racist And yet when. a a violently racist Army whose founding. Charter commits itself to the murder of. Jews. actually murdered Jews they supported it. or they at least made excuses for it so.

they have been morally compromised to a. degree that I think is absolutely. extraordinary and you look at George. Washington University where they. emblazened the students emblazened onto. the walls of the University glory to our. Martyrs just after 7th of October these. are the kinds of University campuses. where for years and years if a a young. guy in the student bar propers. positioned a woman he'd been he would be. accused of partaking in rape culture. where everything was seen as this kind.

of oppressive force on women where. everything was seen as racism you know. serving Sushi to white kids was cultural. appropriation a white kid wearing. dreadlocks on campus was seen as a crime. against black culture for years and. years they pushed this hysterical idea. that everything was sexist everything. was patriarchal everything was racist. and yet when rapists really did invade a. neighboring country and lay waste to. women's lives and kill people on account. of their race and butcher entire.

families they said glory to our Martyrs. they essentially said glory to those. rapists glory to those racists and so. that I think was indicative of of How. Deep The Rot has become because when you. educate an entire generation to hate. Western Society to be suspicious of. Western Civilization to think that. everything white is bad and everything. non-white is worthy of sympathy you. create a situation where when there is. an actual battle between the forces of.

barbarism by which I mean Hamas and the. forces of Civilization by which I mean a. democratic country in the Middle East. called Israel they will take the side of. the former that's how serious I think we. often see wokeness as this frivolous. ridiculous thing just ideological. exuberance amongst the young but it's. actually a far more serious phenomenon. that I think has warped people's minds. in a really serious way I want to keep. talking about this but I have to go to. the bathroom so hold and we'll be right. back with that thanks okay uh we were at.

uh the forces of evil and uh the forces. of good or barbarism and civilization as. you put it the but Israel hasn't done. itself in a service in the response to. it in the way people. interpret what when we're talking about. like what western civilization is doing. the the destruction of houses the. destruction of everything like the. complete demise when you when you look.

at what God is that's that fuels these. people that think that this is an. oppressive Force that's destroying this. culture you know and the idea that it's. okay because they have to get Hamas. that's what terrifies people the. justifications of the massive amounts of. Civilian civilian casualties in order to. just get these evil people isn't it more. evil even numerically more evil right if. you if you just look at the destruction. of human life and homes.

numerically I not that you would want to. attach a number figure to the value of. humans but they've killed far more. people that are civilians that are women. and children in the bombings of Gaza. then were killed on October 7th yeah war. is Hell there is no question about that. one of the reasons I hate Hamas is that. they started this war and it's a war. that no one wants I certainly don't want. it Israel doesn't want it the people of. Gaza absolutely don't want it so it's an. awful terrible thing but I think I I.

fear that we are living through one of. the greatest inversions of Truth and. morality of modern times because what we. have in the Israel Gaza Israel Hamas. conflict is a situation where Israel. suffered a fascistic assault but it's. Israel that is being branded as fascist. Israel suffered genocidal assault by a. movement Hamas that is literally was. literally founded with the express. attention of visiting genocide upon the.

Jews and yet it's it's Israel that's. accused of genocide Israel suffered the. worst act of terrorism since 911 the. worst act of racist violence in a very. very long time the worst act of. anti-jewish violence since the Holocaust. and yet it's Israel that's accused of. enacting a new Holocaust so it's a. complete inversion I think in some of. the coverage and some of the commentary. of the truth of the matter and you know. it in terms of what's happening in Gaza.

it's unspeakably awful there's no. question about that but I think one. thing it's worth bearing in mind is that. this is one of the most scrutinized Wars. of all time if not the most scrutinized. war I've never seen this level of. scrutiny and I wish I had in fact in. relation to the Iraq disaster or the. Afghanistan invention or the Libya. invent invention by Barack Obama and. David Cameron who was prime minister in. England at the time I wish I'd seen this. level of scrutiny but we didn't this war. is more scrutinized than any other and I.

do worry that tragically normal things. that happen in a war which is that there. are civilian casualties in this instance. are being blown up as proof of evil on. Israel's part so if you look for example. at the killing of the um Aid workers. from the uh uh the food charity uh. Western Powers condemn that they said. Israel's got to take more care Israel's. really becoming Reckless these are the. same Western Powers who killed hundreds. of innocent civilians in so-called.

Friendly Fire incidents in Iraq in. Afghanistan in Libya in Libya in. 2011 there were so many Friendly Fire. incidents under Barack Obama and David. Cameron that the pro-west rebels had to. paint the roof of their vehicles bright. pink in order to try and void avoid the. bombs of their so-called allies in. allies in the west so all the things. that people see as demonic and nazil. likee and pure evil on Israel's part are.

done by every nation that fights a war. right and that's it's that double. standard but that's not a justification. right with Jose Andres has said is that. they intentionally targeted his Aid. workers and that people int he's gone. public saying they intentionally. targeted his Aid workers they knew what. those people were doing and that they. killed them this is like because that. has happened in war before and we didn't. have the kind of scrutiny that we have. today in no way justifies continuing.

that practice right it's not a. justification but it's an it's it's an. attempt to understand why there is this. such intense scrutiny on this war in. contrast to so many other recent modern. Wars I think that's recent modern Wars. but with the kind of coverage that we. have with cell phones and footage that's. available everywhere I don't think so I. don't think there there's nowhere near. the coverage it wasn't an urban. environment in the same way when they. were in Afghanistan right other than.

Cabell and some of the other there's not. that many high population areas it's a. completely different scenario in terms. of like cell phone footage and people. being able to see the wreckage fly. drones over it the capability. technologically of covering it is very. different right I think that's true but. there have been recent Wars where there. was same levels of Technology the the. war in Syria for example which the. Western were intimately involved in too. and there and the number of people. killed there was absolutely huge. including Palestinians thousands of.

Palestinians died. what uh from 2011 onwards right through. till quite recently don't you think. there's a big difference between the. amount of cell phone coverage available. from 2011 especially in Syria versus. Israel and Gaza in 2024 the point I. would make I think you're right I think. social media the the Improvement in. Social social media or or or not as one. might see it uh explains why we're. seeing so much from this war but it. can't explain in my view the cultural.

interpretation of it amongst many in the. woke West and I think what's happening. because in the woke West support for. Palestine is ubiquitous it's like yeah. it's part of the the doctrine and hatred. for Israel is is U colonizers yeah as as. as the as the most evil State you know. the thing that worries me most is that. um. anti-zionism as they call it I don't. think it's anti-semitic to criticize. Israel of course just as it's not racist. to criticize Zimbabwe or whatever um but.

we're not just seeing criticism of. Israel we are seeing hysteria about. Israel which I think is disproportionate. and myopic and obsessive and we're. seeing it on the streets all the time. we're seeing it on campuses we're seeing. it on social media this very myopic. obsession with everything Israel does. and the thing that worries me is that. what is presented to us as anti-zionism. is so similar to what we all recognize. as the anti-Semitism of the past is.

undeniably similar so in the past what. people said about the Jews is that they. were uniquely bloodthirsty they had. their fingers in the pies of everything. they were controlling of of our. communities and our societies um they. were a pretty demonic force and the. destructive of world peace that's now. all said about the Jewish State the. Jewish state is uniquely murderous there. was a line in a guardian column recently. which referred to the war in Gaza as. uniquely barbaric they're seen as.

uniquely murderous they target children. they love killing children um they are. all powerful they have this hypnotic. influence over the United States in the. United Kingdom and other countries they. like they Puppeteer these nations. they're so powerful and they are. destructive of world peace it seems very. curious to me that all the things that. were once said about the Jewish people. now said about the Jewish State and I'm. not saying that everyone who says it is. a racist right we shouldn't throw around. the word racist willy-nilly it's a it's.

an important word that has real meaning. but I do think there is an element of. bigotry whether witting or unwitting in. this singling out of Israel for the most. extreme form of moral appropri that is. not directed against any other state. including states that do far worse. things that than Israel is doing that's. what I find curious and really worrying. about the times we live in right but. what they are doing is very troubling. right the bombing of Gaza the.

destruction of how many thousands and. thousands of homes how many innocent. people died that's still very troubling. every all of it is troubling right in. every single War more civilians than. Fighters die this is isn't this fact. extraordinary how quick it's happening. as well it's very quick but I think the. the thing to bear in mind is that when. people say that 30,000 Palestinians have. been killed um the first thing to bear. in mind is that that is a lower number. than have died in other recent Wars the.

the more important thing to bear in mind. is that a large number of them um. estimate say 30% are Hamas Fighters that. they are a member of the 30% where have. you where have you heard that well I've. seen people say that between 10 and. 12,000 are Hamas Fighters but but this. is the problem none of this information. gets through not even to the extent that. we would then be free to discuss it. right actually that's what Coleman said. as well right he did say 30%. um the number whatever I've I thought it.

was 50% I thought it was uh I thought it. was more than that rather I thought it. was um. so some it's hard to say right because. there's people that will tell you that. Hamas OV exaggerates the number of. Civilian casualties and then there's. people that say that Israel will Target. anyone that even is associated with. Hamas as being Hamas and so they. exaggerate their numbers as well um but. at the end of the day for sure tens of.

thousands of innocent people have died. right a lot of innocent people have died. tens of thousands but isn't it quicker. than most wars in the amount of people. that have died so quickly most these. wars that you're talking about whether. it's Afghanistan or Syria the the amount. of dead may be greater but isn't it over. a longer period of time that's true this. war is distinctive in some ways firstly. because it's in a very small area. secondly because we know that Hamas. Roots itself in civilian Society we know.

this for a fact we know that it it hides. amongst civilians we know that it. disguises itself as part of those. communities that's what terrifies people. the willingness to kill civilians. knowing that you're going to kill. civilians just to get to the bad guy but. you know this is the thing that really. worries me about in the aftermath of 7th. of October I said to so many people so. many friends of mine and and people I. encountered in media discussions I said. to them what should Israel have done. nothing you know they had just been. subjected to the worst act of.

anti-Semitic violence in 70 years uh. more than 70 years uh the the slaughter. The Butchery of entire families the. kidnap of hundreds of people the murder. of old people women men children what. should they have done and when people. say well they shouldn't have gone into. Gaza they should have just relaxed a bit. or whatever people say what they're. essentially saying is you know Jews let. yourselves be killed it's not a big deal.

it's not the end of the world it's it's. it was only an incursion into your. territory and a Slaughter of 10,000. people why are you so head up about this. no society would put up with that if if. a if an anti-American Force came into. the United States and killed whatever. the equivalent number is it would be. tens of thousands if we took him. population differences no one I hope. would sit back and say well you know. whatever it's fine it's not a big deal. Israel had every right I think to pursue.

the terrorists that did this to its. people and to pursue them with extreme. prejudice and to put them down and to. say we will create a situation in which. you will never be able to do this again. and and of course what's happening is. awful but the moral responsibility for. it lies entirely with Hamas they started. this war they're now refusing to end the. war by giving back the hostages and. surrendering to Israel which is what. they ought to do and they're openly.

saying they're openly rejecting. ceasefire options so this Absolution of. Hamas this absolving of Hamas of any. responsibility for the Calamity. currently befalling Gaza I find that. very worrying too because among some. woke activists there seems to be this. view that Israel is the only actor in. that region it's it's only Israel's. decisions matter and we can't possibly. expect the these brown people in Hamas. to have any responsibility for what's. going on there's a curious paternalism.

to that the truth is that Hamas is. fundamentally responsible for what's. happening firstly by starting it and. secondly by refusing to end it but if. you're talking to people that are. reasonable their objection is not that. Israel defend itself their objection is. the sheer number of innocent people who. die by virtue of of these strategies of. just attacking populations where Hamas. is embedded with civilians and killing. all the civilians and their their.

objection is not that you know that. Hamas is good is that the Palestinian. people are innocent and that they're. trapped under the ruling of Hamas and. have been since what 2006 how long it's. been yeah that's a that's not a you're. you're killing people that have nothing. to do with that you're killing people. that are captured by their own. government you're killing people that. virtually have no say in how their their. government is run they have no say in.

what Hamas does if they decide to go. across the border and kill 12200 people. they didn't want that to happen they. didn't ask for it they didn't. participate in it but yet they're. getting bombed into Smither and this is. this is the this is the argument that. the reasonable people have is that okay. you're not absolving Hamas from starting. this but are you absolving Israel from. killing thousands and thousands of. innocent people in the process of. hunting down Hamas and are you creating. even more Martyrs by doing so because.

how many people are losing family. members how many people are facing. starvation how many Aid workers are. getting killed while they're trying to. help at a certain point in time you. you're you you have to look at is this. the only way to do this and you have to. say you're not absolving Hamas but you. are showing compassion for innocent. people that are trapped by this. murderous regime and now they're getting. blown to smithin because these people.

embed themselves with them and they. create you know the human shield. argument right yeah I don't know if it's. a it's a good argument I don't know if. it's a moral and just argument for a. superior Society if we really are. morally and ethically superior the idea. of killing T of thousands of innocent. people to get to a few bad people or how. many bad people who knows what the. numbers right but the that disturbs the. [ __ ] out of people and when they find. the numbers are grossly it's like what.

are the number of women and children. that have died it's a high number a very. high number and they're they don't take. comfort in the fact they they died by. getting bombed instead of being invaded. and and butchered in their homes they're. dead but you know um but you know what. I'm saying I do both things need to be. taken into consideration and when we're. discussing this it's like there's this. there's this. the people have this uh ability to like. sort of compartmentalize and not look at.

it in an overall like if you took an. overall assessment you'd say the whole. thing is horrible but just because one. horrible thing happens it doesn't. justify all this other horrific [ __ ]. that's going on as well both those. things kind of need to be addressed and. is that the only way to do this the only. way to do this is to kill tens of. thousands of innocent civilians in order. to get these bad people but you know um. I think you're right that uh if you talk. to reasonable people they're driven. largely by compassion they're not driven. by a promass sentiment although I think.

there is a there is a terrifyingly. promass sentiment amongst some of the. activists on the streets yes we've seen. it on the Streets of London streets of. United States um but I think you know. the terrible truth of the matter is that. Wars sometimes have to be fought um in. the United States you fought two huge. Wars the re uary War and the Civil War. in order to deliver yourselves into. something resembling freedom in the. United Kingdom we had a civil war that. lasted uh more than a decade which is.

what made us a democracy right but. that's not really the question right but. so what I'm saying is that it what. Israel has decided and I think they are. right is that this and in both in all. those Wars I've just mentioned by the. way there were huge numbers of Civilian. casualties even pre the modern era of. bombs falling from um planes there were. civilian casualties of but there's a. moral judgment that sometimes has to be. made which is that do we go and fight. these people or do we allow them to.

regroup and potentially plot another. attack on us and Israel has taken the. decision and I think it's probably the. right one that we have to go and fight. these people just as Britain took the. decision that it had to go and fight the. Nazis and just as America took the. decision that it had to go and fight the. slave owners sometimes you have to make. a moral judgment and the thing is war is. awful but John Stewart Mill a great. liberal thinker from the 1800s he made. the point that war is an ugly thing but. it's not the ugliest thing the lack of. patriotic feeling or the lack of a.

belief that anything is worth a war is. worse and I do think we're seeing that. in W in the west now the this revulsion. at War we we are in a very luxurious. position in the west especially younger. Generations they've never had to fight. for anything they've never faced an. existential threat from a neighboring. Army that wants to destroy both your. state and your religion and your people. they've never faced that level of threat. and and what's more from an army that. hides in ordinary streets in crowded.

communities amongst Ordinary People so. there's this kind of luxurious moralism. I find in some of the condemnation of. Israel coming from young people in. Europe who've never had to fight for. anything never had to fight to maintain. their existence never had to fight. against an existential threat to their. entire way of life what's more these. young people in Europe their. great-grandfathers shoved Jews into. ovens and then they have the absolute.

gal to say to Israel and to the Jewish. State well why do you need your own. country they need their own country. because of what we did to them 80 years. ago so there is this it's not just. hypocrisy it's not just double standards. it's this kind of um luxurian. condemnation coming from people who live. in very comfortable peaceful societies. who seem to have no understanding that. every now and then your Society is. confronted with a threat that cannot. just be wished away it cannot be peace.

negotiated away it cannot be diploma. away it has to be confronted in the most. physical manner imaginable and the. consequences of that will always be. terrible but sometimes it has to be done. and that's the only way to do it the. only way to do it is to bomb the places. where the civilians are because the bad. people are there as well I want what. you're saying about the condemnation of. Israel and I agree to a certain extent. but could you imagine I mean we're in. essentially in some sort of a strange. conflict with uh drug cartels in Mexico.

now imagine if that that didn't exist 20. years ago I never heard about it but now. we hear about it every day what if 20. years from now becomes even more intense. and what if some drug cartels in a gang. sneak across the border and kill a bunch. of Americans just because they hate. America if we bombed Mexico into the. Stone Age do you know how upset people. would be if we bombed factories because. the cartels had embedded themselves in. the factories and we killed tens of. thousands of innocent workers who just.

poor people do you know how upset people. would be they'd be very upset it just. hasn't happened before so this unique. condemnation is because we're seeing it. we we're seeing the consequences of this. and when people look at what's happening. to Gaza like how does anybody how does. that come back what there's nothing left. is it getting obliterated and what does. that mean what does that mean for the. future what does it mean to the people. that live there what what is being done. to help them what are you are you is it. a death sentence to tens of thousands of.

people or a million people like what. what is going to happen in two three. four years what if this keeps going on. and on but this is why it's very. unfashionable these days to make moral. judgments you're not supposed to make a. moral judgment you're either supposed to. calculate everything according to what. its consequences might be or you're. supposed to take this very technocratic. view of society you're certainly not. supposed to judge people's identities. and so on I know it's unfashionable to. make moral judgments but sometimes a. moral judgment has to be made and I. think in relation to the Israel Hamas. War the way I see it is that this was an.

assault on ordinary civilians by a. barbaric Army uh the like the the like. of which people in the west don't. understand and don't have to confront. and Israel made the moral judgment that. it had to pursue it in the way that it. considered best now the thing is you. talk about the numbers and a lot of. people talk about the numbers and people. will often say Israel has now killed. more people than Hamas killed on the 7th. of October and that's true but this is.

not just a a numerical equation this is. not just something that can be done on. an abacus or on a on a pie chart this is. bigger than that this is a bigger moral. conundrum and there is no moral. equivalence in my view between what. Hamas did and what Israel is doing. because Hamas intentionally killed. people on the the basis of their race it. intentionally stabbed people to death it. intentionally threw hand grenades into.

safety shelters that in which families. were hiding it intentionally raped and. stripped and murdered women it did it on. purpose intimately face to face with. knives and guns and bombs because they. are Jews right right that's that was a. fascistic assault on Israel what Israel. is doing and I don't accept the idea. that they are purposely targeting. civilians or that they those Ed workers. on purpose I just don't think that's. true and if but so what Israel is. doing there is collateral damage to.

Israel's just pursuit of Hamas and I. just don't think there is any serious. moral comparison between the intentional. murder of Jewish people and the. absolutely tragic regrettable deaths of. civilians in war as has happened in. every war in history they can't be. compared so I do think we have to go. slightly beyond the numbers beyond the. horror of it which we see on our TV. screens every day and ask. ourselves what is the moral question at.

stake here does Israel have the right to. exist and if so does it have the right. to fortify itself against this. anti-semitic Army that wants to destroy. it that's the moral question and then. there's a broader moral question for us. in the west which is why have so many of. our young people in particular and the. educated Elites being sucked onto the. what I would consider to be the wrong. side of this question we used to think. that education was the great guard. against hysteria and regressive views we. used to think that education would.

deliver people from ignorance deliver. them from the prejudices that might have. Afflicted our less educated forbears and. ancestors but what we've had since 7th. of October is very often the most. educated people making excuses for the. most regressive Army on Earth and so it. bra it raises questions for our. societies what's happening in ourm. what's happening in our universities. what what's happening amongst our young. what's happening on social media that is. sucking people into this myopic hatred.

for Israel why are people like Aaron. bushnel burning themselves alive in the. name of Palestine we have to look at. what's happening in our society and make. a moral judgment there as well as I. think having a moral understanding of. why Israel thought it had to pursue. Hamas in this way there's absolutely no. defense of Hamas targeting Jews and. killing them no one could say that. there's any defense but the idea that. killing Innocents in order to get to the.

bad people is morally Superior you you. kind of have to make the Judgment that. you care about them less than you care. about your people because if you could. imagine a scenario where uh a Jewish. hospital had Hamas in its basement and. they made the decision to bomb the. Jewish hospital and kill all the Jews. inside of it just to get to the 40 or 50. Hamas guys that are there no one would. say that that's okay so if you're saying. that these people who have no say in how.

their culture is run are less valuable. in terms of like what what you care. about what happens to these people that. had nothing to do with it we care about. the people in Israel they had nothing. they got parachuted in killed and at a. rave it's horrifying but it's also. horrifying for the people that have zero. say in how their society is run they're. young and they're women and children and. they're getting bombed into Oblivion. because where they are is where Hamas is. if those Jews whose fault is that it's.

it's definitely hamas's fault but but. the problem is deciding whose fault. doesn't make it feel better for the. people that feel it's a moral outrage. that you're destroying tens of thousands. of innocent lives and who knows how many. people are wounded permanently and who. knows how many people are displeased. their life will never be the same again. and it's all Happ. because the moral decision is that in. order to get rid of these bad people. you're willing to kill these innocent. people that are not us but the truth of.

the matter is isn't that true because if. they were Jews if they if there was 500. Jews and three Hamas guys who would be. cool with killing all those innocent. Jews to get to the Hamas people but the. what you're saying. is technically correct but there I can. think of no war in history and it is. important to talk about the history of. of conflict yes um I can think of no war. in history where there haven't been. civilian casualties in Pursuit either of. an unjust cause like the pursuit of.

Saddam Hussein apparently because he was. responsible for 911 [ __ ] built on. lies built on a a tissue of. misinformation um and hund hundreds of. thousands of people died and suffered as. a consequence of that so Wars are either. fought for unjust purposes and civilians. die as a consequence or sometimes for. just purposes and C Ians also die as a. consequence so the English Civil War. right were were the parliamentarians led. by Oliver Cromwell wronged to fight. against the royalists and to create the.

modern idea of democracy because there. were civilian casualties I would say no. they were not wrong they made the right. decision was the Civil War in America. wrong I don't think it was I think. destroying uh slavery was a great cause. and worth the sacrifices that had to be. made what I'm saying is that Israel is. now facing a similar dilemma that our. societies haven't faced for a very long. time there hasn't been a war inside the. UK unless you count the war with. Northern Ireland of course from 1969 to. 1994 um for a very long time so Israel.

is facing a similar dilemma what do we. do when we face this existential threat. do we defend our right to exist do we. fortify ourselves against the siege of. these anti-semites against us and. they've decided that this is a war that. they have to fight I do think the. consequences of the war are tragic. I do think the unwillingness of um. certainly the activist class in the west. to a portion any blame to herass.

whatsoever is very very interesting but. there's that's kind of a straw man. because there is that but then there's. also the vast majority of people who. look at it as a horrific loss of life of. innocent people and just to chalk it off. to the hores of War it's like that's the. only way to do it is this the only way. to do it to bomb civilians Hamas embeds. itself in C I don't know I'm not an. expert on war tactics but it's not I. don't think it's the only way to do it. you're right to say that it's if one.

were just to throw one's hands in the. air and say it's War what do you expect. that's not a just that's not a good. response right that's not a good. justification for what's happening but. what I'm saying is that beyond the what. I'm saying is I think twofold the. horrors of War attend every war that's a. given every war is horrible and sick. making and hellish that's that's a given. I think but then there's another issue. which is the question of why a war is. being fought is it being fought for. criminal reasons and wrong reasons and I.

think there are many examples of that. spearheaded both by your country and. mine over the past 100 years unjust Wars. that led to unjust deaths are there also. Wars that are just and that are worth. fighting yes the war against Nazism I. think was a just War um I think I can. think of anti-colonial wars in which it. was complet completely justifiable for. people to rise up against British rule. or American domination or what whatever. else it might be so we do have to make a.

moral call on what's happening in Israel. and Gaza and that does involve Rising. above the differences in the numbers. killed it does involve Rising above the. horrors of war and trying to take a. broader view which. says do we want Israel to continue. existing do we want the Jews to have. their own Homeland and do we want them. to be safe from the fascistic Menace of. a neighboring Army that would like to.

kill them all and to destroy their state. from The River To The. Sea that's the question we need to ask. ourselves and if our question if our. answer to those questions is yes then we. do have to accept Israel's right to. pursue Hamas and then the blame for the. horrors in Gaza has to lie at the feet. of Hamas which is with profound cynicism. placing itself amongst the people in. order to then throw its hands in the air. and say look what evil Israel is doing. it's killing these people even though.

they put themselves there for that. Express purpose the cynicism of it the. horror of it is unimaginable and so I. think to put it all on Israel as some. people do to say this is just a demonic. action by the Jewish state is wrong. Hamas Bears profound responsibility both. for starting the war both and also for. putting gods and civilians in arms way. and refusing to pull the plug on the. wall which it could do right this minute. if it returned the hostages and. surrendered to Israel so we do have to.

look at who is morally responsible for. This calamity and I think it's. Hamas I understand what you're saying. but I also view it from a perspective of. the people that live there that have no. say and to just say hey this is because. of the people that run you and have. ruined your life we're going to kill you. too we're going to kill everybody there. and the only way to do it is to just. bomb places where we know they are even. if we know you're there too that scares. people that people are willing to make.

these sort of moral decisions as being. the only way to handle this war is scary. war is horrifying but but this kind of. war is uniquely scary right because one. Army is vastly superior to the other one. vastly and VA and funded by the greatest. army which is us right I I that's a. factor too because it's it's not really. they're not equalent you know one did a. horrific terrorist attack but it was. fairly rudimentary in terms of like what. they were able to do look if you had. here's here's the the moral argument if.

you said to uh Hamas uh Israel said we. will lay down our arms and we'll. surrender to. you most people believe that Hamas would. just butcher the Israelis if Hamas said. we will lay down our arms will surrender. to you no one thinks that Israel just go. in there and butcher everybody there's. there's the real the the real difference. but you also have to accept that there's. one group of people and the narrative is. their land has been stolen they're.

they're they're they it was all. originally supposed to be theirs and. they're being dominated by the superior. military force and that they're. attacking that Superior military force. that they believe has this un unjust. control over. them is an act of rebellion against. something that's in control of them and. the people that did it are all monsters. but the people that are embedded amongst. these people have almost no say there's. they have no power and they're women and.

children that's what's scary is this. justification of this horrific Act of. destruction of who knows how many. thousands of houses who many who knows. how many thousands of lives lost and. have been destroyed forever and lost. loved ones even the people that survived. who knows how many of them have been. [ __ ] up and they didn't do anything. wrong that's just a scary to people if. not more scary that people can make a. moral justification in this framework of. This Is War and war is awful my question.

to those people would be why did you not. find it equally scary when Western. forces did that in Raa they might not. have. known you're talking to me CU I didn't. know no but that's the thing so Western. Powers did it in raaka when they were. pursuing Isis loads of civilians died. they did it in mosul when they were. pursuing Isis they did it in other. countries too. um either this is the thing you're right. to say that people don't know and this.

is another problem with the way in which. the Israel Hamas war is being talked. about it's being obsessed over in a. disproportionate way in my view I don't. accept the idea that it is a uniquely. Wicked war or a uniquely destructive War. I think there have been numerous Wars in. recent years which have been far more. destructive now you're right to say this. might be quicker and proportionally. speaking perhaps more people in Gaza. have died as a proportion of the. population than you might say in Syria. where 200,000 people lost their lives or. in Iraq where 150,000 people lost their.

lives that might be true more Iraq maybe. more certainly as a consequ a spin-off. of the war itself um so it could be true. that this is speedier and. proportionately more people are dying. that may be true I don't know what I'm. saying is that the idea that it is a. uniquely problematic War uniquely. murderous that there are a uniquely uh. High number of Civilian casualties in. contrast with militant casualties I. don't think that's true so then the.

question becomes why is that being said. why is there a focus on the uniquely uh. horrible nature of this conflict what's. going on there and it seems unavoidable. to me that what's happening is that. Israel is been turned into almost this. Whipping Boy of Western activists. who have simply turned against. civilizational values and they say they. see Israel as representative of those. values they see Israel as representative. of modernity of the west of whiteness.

even though Israel is not a white. country it's an incredibly diverse. country they see Israel as. representative of all the things that. they hate and they've turned it into. this punch bag into a moral punch bag. where they can let off steam by. demonizing this one tiny State among all. the other states on Earth as being. uniquely Wicked. but hold on cuz if Israel existed with. no conflict as to who owns the land and. to no history of moving the borders.

further and further if if it existed in. that way yes but it exists as a superior. military force that's in control of. these people that are on their land that. are not of them and that has a tight. grip on them and an Iron Dome and you. see it how it works and they shoot. missiles in ility and they blow up in. the air it's not a fair comparison. because the the what people are upset. about is that Israel controls those.

people and and has these people. sectioned off into what's essentially. what people describe as an open air. prison that's and when then it bombs the. [ __ ] out of the open air prison that's. what freaks people out but it's um I. know I agree with what you're saying in. principle I agree with what you're. saying in forms of in terms of of like. look if you have a force that's a. genocidal force that has a military and. wants to attack a country that they. should be rooted out and stopped 100%.

but it's the way in which it's happening. and the circumstances that were in place. before it happened that make it uniquely. different but I don't think it is. uniquely different I think there have. been many instances over the past decade. or 20 years in which sure has been the. pursuit of radical islamists that has. led to civilian casualties because they. hide themselves in civilian. infastructure but this also has a holy. war aspect to it and The Holy War aspect. to it is that Judea and Israel and this. this whole area there's it has the like.

massive historical implications for the. religion there's a lot else going on. there it's Muslims and Jews it's not. simply two people that are bordering. each other that have like you know like. Poland and Germany you know what I'm. saying like there's there's some other. [ __ ] going on there you know I think it. can be hard for. to imagine I find it hard to imagine. imagine there was a you might be right. that this is an inferior Army militarily. speaking and in terms of definitely.

right don't you think you're right. you're right about that but they have. proven themselves to be more than. willing to invade Israel to kill its. people to kidnap its soldiers to kidnap. its civilians so they are um pretty good. at what they do which is it is. anti-Semitic terrorism right so they're. pretty forceful now just and and they. have devoted themselves to the. destruction of Israel right and they're. a pretty significant force and they do. have support from various elements in. the Middle East and also from educated.

people in the west who ought to know. better imagine there was an Army that. threatened to destroy the United States. like to end the United States or the. United Kingdom an army right next door. that was pretty well armed and supported. by autocratic powers and supported by. significant numbers of people around the. world and which devoted itself to the. entire destruction of our states and. which demonstrated its willingness to do. so by slaughtering thousands of our.

civilians it's hard for us to compute. that it's hard for us to understand the. position that puts people in the. position it puts Israel in and the. people of Israel so what I'm saying is. that rather than rushing to this um. moral condemnation where we say Israel. is overreacting or Israel is being. Reckless or Israel is being um uniquely. Wicked and uniquely destructive we ought. to try to understand where Israel is. coming from it's difficult for us to. understand that because we haven't.

experienced the same thing ever really. or certainly not for a very long time. but we ought to try to understand where. Israel is coming from why it feels the. need to do this and appreciate the. importance I think of destroying Hamas. Hamas is a menace to civilization Hamas. is a menace to reason. this is a backward misogynistic. homophobic violent anti-semitic Army. that has demonstrated its willingness. and its capacity to murder Jewish people.

for being Jewish people that out of all. the movements on Earth deserves to be. destroyed it's difficult for Israel to. destroy it without also causing. collateral damage because the of the way. in which Hamas. operates then the question becomes. should Israel stop trying to destroy. herass and allow it to regroup it has. already threatened to do another 7th of. October and it said it will do it again. and again and again or does Israel say.

regrettably we are going to have to. fight a horrible war in order to destroy. this fascist threat to our Nations I. completely understand what you're saying. I think we're going around in circles we. keep going around in circles cuz the the. straw man or the the Steelman of it is. you look at it from the opposite. perspective yes Israel is attacked by. these horrible forces but also these. innocent people are getting destroyed. for because of no fault of their own and. we're willing to do horrific things and.

doesn't that create more Martyrs and. doesn't that create more people who want. to attack Israel and doesn't that do the. opposite of what we wanted to do and. also isn't this. situation one of the most horrific. things we've ever seen despite the fact. that we we all know that war is hell but. this acknowledgment that this is. horrific and that the these people that. died there's more of them than died in. the attack on Israel but I don't think. you're right we are going around in.

circles keep going around circles we're. on Polar Opposites of this I think NE no. we're not actually we're we're we're. we're we have a difference of opinion on. the moral weight of this question I just. don't know if there's another way to do. it I but I don't but the one thing I. don't accept actually and I would. definitely push back on this idea that. this is one of the worst things we've. ever seen you know you were talking. earlier about Vietnam think about what. the apologies if this is offensive to. some American listeners and viewers what.

the Americans did in Vietnam the myly. massacre just the most extraordinary. barbarism or or what the but it doesn't. justify what's going on today just we're. not we weren't aware of it to the extent. that we're aware of it today and if a. civilization is going to advance it's. going to have to be held up to the. highest moral standards particularly if. you're the superpower yeah you're the. superpower that's connected to people. that have very primitive means of. attacking you but this is the the point. I'm trying to make is not to say that.

though we committed Horrors in the past. and therefore Israel has the right to. commit Horrors today that's not what I'm. saying but I do think it's worth. acknowledging that America did. objectionable things in Vietnam and many. other places the British the British. what the British did in India and Africa. is. um everything happening in Gaza pales. into. insignificance in comparison to what the. British did no doubt G is happening. right now so what I'm saying but this is. my point this is not this is not my.

attempted justification of the conflict. my justification of the conflict is is. that a moral question has to be answered. what I'm saying is why is this war being. treated as uniquely uh Wicked why is it. why is it seen by huge numbers of people. and it really is seen by huge numbers of. people as un precedented in its. barbarism I see people online every day. saying I can't sleep I'm crying I'm. weeping I'm shaking I don't know what to. do and I I want to say to them why have.

you not felt that way in relation to. other Wars now you could be right that. they maybe didn't know about those Wars. maybe they don't know footage is even. comparable I think it's what's in front. of your face every day and I also think. that the the original attack was so. horrific that it focused people on that. conflict and now now they're completely. tuned into it they want to know what's. going on and then I think I think that's. a very generous interpretation and I'm. sure for some people what you're saying.

is true but I can't help but think that. Israel is being singled out for unjust. criticism and I'm interested to antism. behind it I think I don't think all. those people marching in the streets are. anti-semites although I do think some of. them are foolishly rubbing shoulders. with herass reporters and and turning a. blind eye to um you know placards. showing the Nazi uh swash sticker and so. on um but I do think anti-zionism as.

it's referred to is a very curious beast. and it's one that I do think expresses. an element of bigotry and just to come. back to a conversation we had earlier I. do find it. extraordinary that amongst the so-called. anti-racists of the West um they now. seem very Cavalier about one of the. worst acts of racist violence of modern. times and amongst the so-called. feminists of the West look at un women. it took un women what 54 days to say.

anything about 7th of October during. which women were brutalized and. butchered I find it interesting that. amongst the feminists of the West. they're so reluctant to say anything. about this assault on Jewish women in. Israel and amongst the anti-fascists of. the West antifa for example who've been. going around for the past 10 years. saying Trump is Hitler 2. zero and um. the vote for brexit is going to Herald. the return of the 1930s these people see. fascism everywhere they've been. obsessing over the return of the 1930s.

for years when something very like. fascism actually happened they were. either incredibly Cavalier about it some. of them were supportive of it they did. refer to it as an act of resistance or. they just turned away and didn't want to. talk about it so that so the question. for me is not just to say oh it's the. horrors of War because that is a. mundane uh uh thing to say it's to ask. why Israel is being singled out to such. an extent that vast SWS of people in the.

western world are willing to ditch every. principle they adhere to for the past 25. years and More in order to explain away. the racist Butchery of Jewish people. well one of the most was when those. heads of those universities were all. discussing whether or not it was. harassment to say death to the Jews on. campus that was a boy if I was Jewish I. would have been terrified watching that. like what a godamn wakeup call and you.

know when you see how How deep the roots. of this [ __ ] chaos goes that it's it. you have the president was it Penn that. she was that who it was who said if it's. actionable with like a smirk on her face. like like like she was trying to silence. these silly students like these are. people that are just used to existing. only in Academia which is the root of. all of this stuff which is really very. very bizarre that Academia has become. this incredibly insulated environment.

where people go there they adopt the. philosophies and then they teach to new. kids that come in this Doctrine and it's. very cult-like it's very cult likee also. in the fact that you have to adhere to. one side it's not an open discourse sort. of uh establishment it's not they. they'll silence conservative people and. pull fire alarms and they want to stop. freedom of speech if at all possible if. it doesn't jive with what the [ __ ] they. believe you know the the that's part of.

it too yeah and the most striking thing. about these um those presidents of the. universities at the Congressional. hearing not only were they unable to say. that um calling for the deaths of all. Jews is a is a problem but these are. campuses on which for the past few years. there have been controversies over. Halloween costumes and it's crime. against transgender people to dress up. like cathlyn Jenner on Halloween or. they'll kick you out forever if you. misgender someone right you misgender. someone or if you. um in the har in the case of Harvard a.

young Professor there got into hot water. over raising questions about the idea. that there is a black genocide being. carried out by white cops he got into. trouble for even though he proved it. with evidence and and Analysis so for. years on these campuses there has been a. real reluctance to allow freedom of. thought freedom of speech the right of. people to uh engage in rigorous academic. analysis And yet when it comes to this. one question they throw their hands up. in the air and say well you know freedom. of speech call for the genocide of the.

Jews that's free speech so again it's. that double standard but you're right. about what's happened to universities. more broadly which is that they have. become conveyor belts of conformism very. bizarre you now I I often get young. people saying to me because I do talks. at University sometimes and they say is. it worth being at University and I'm not. sure it is because you used to go to. university to have your mind opened and. now you go there and get it closed down. so it's the that's a problem it is a. problem and it's weird it's it's weird. that there's no Alternatives unless you.

go to some sort of a religious school. it's very strange there's the the the. number of conservative leaning. universities versus liberal universities. is off the charts it's like it's so Mis. unbalanced and I don't know what solves. that problem because that seems like an. embedded institution that is very. reluctant to any kind of a change and is. so deeply dug into its ideology that. they think the whole world is filled. with Nazis and bigots and homophobes and.

that they're on the right side of. everything and they don't they don't. produce anything all they do is just. talk about these things you teach more. kids these crazy ideas and so many of. them in the humanities are so ridiculous. that I'm sure you're aware of uh the. James Lindsay Peter beian and Helen. pluckrose papers what they did that just. should expose the rot of. Institutions that you can. make real papers about heteronormative. activity in dog parks and people like oh.

this is brilliant fat bodybuilding oh. this is brilliant you're the best like. oh my God we're we're living in a Mike. Judge movie we really are we're we're we. are in an idiocracy and that's my my. genuine fear is that as our access to. information becomes bigger and bigger. and more and more available that it's. not going to save us that's what's crazy. it's like we're we're digging into. nonsense more now than we ever had. before when we didn't have ever back. then everyone knew that a guy in a dress.

with a heart on in a women's room is a. pervert and now it's like I he's a woman. yeah he's amazing he's Brave and. inspiring and I I don't know what fixes. that because it seems. like some something has to break and. some realization of the people that are. in it they have they have to wake the. [ __ ] up and go what are we doing like. why do we believe you have a finite. amount of time on this planet in this. life you have a finite amount of time. we're wasting it on things that are so. ridiculous that any objective species.

from another planet if they came here. and looked at us they'd be like look at. these [ __ ] morons like what are what. how can they be so sophisticated and so. ridiculous at the same time and boy we. have to put a check on these [ __ ]. because they're they're liable to do. wild [ __ ] they they can justify almost. anything and they're essentially a bunch. of cult members who don't believe. they're in a cult which is one of the. most dangerous things you could be I. couldn't agree more that's the. Inquisition that's [ __ ] everything. it's everything that's ever happened.

cult members didn't think they were in a. cult they forced their [ __ ] on everybody. else and a bunch of people died and then. people go well glad we learned our. lesson we'll never do that again and. we're in the middle of doing it right. now and we have this ridiculous idea. that somehow Or Another We're immune to. that now we wouldn't do that now we're. more sophisticated than that now even. though objectively all the same steps. are all moving in place and everybody's. like I don't see it yeah I don't see it. this is great you know listening to you. say that I couldn't agree more and it's. a it's a very Salient reminder you know.

there's this Prejudice that the mob is. made up of kind of Toothless Hicks you. know stupid uneducated witless people. who don't know their ass from their. elbow going around with their pitchforks. if you look at history the. mob the hysteria has tended to come from. the upper echelons of society it's. tended to come from the supposed experts. it was the Priestly Elites who carried. out the Inquisition it's the uh Academia. today that is pushing the most crazy.

posttruth nonsense ideas it's very often. the educated sections of society who get. sucked into these backward ways of. thinking these regressive ways of. thinking and whose ways of thinking have. an incredibly destructive impact on. community life on children's bodies onen. women's rights on the sanctity of. certain spaces so I think Reckoning with. The Graduate mob is actually one of the. most essential tasks of our time and.

really getting to understand how these. people who look down upon us as. posttruth who Lo look down upon us as. stupid and uned uneducated and um easy. prey for demagogic forces we need to. turn it back on them and say hold on. it's you people who have been subsumed. by this irration cult who have abandoned. the virtue of Truth and embraced the. ideology of unreason it's you people who. are doing that and and what's more the. way in which you're doing it is having a.

detrimental impact on people's lives and. their bodies and their freedoms so I. think that's one of the great pressing. tasks of our time to push back on them. and say your hysteria is [ __ ] things. up the real fear is that children are. getting indoctrinated this straight out. of high school they're getting. indoctrinated into this way of thinking. straight out of high school without. participating in the real world and then. they just get sucked into it and then. they go right out into these. corporations and ruin them that's it. like that's Bud Light absolutely that's.

where it came from abely it's just. nonsense and it's bizarre to watch it. all take place in mass and not just in. one very specific sector of the the. society but everything and all in all. things and the prisons you're you're. watching it everywhere it's it's Uber. bizarre to watch and in corporation. it's insane you know capitalism loves. identity politics that's what I've come. to realize especially capitalism loves. transgenderism if you look at during.

pride month every single bank and hedge. fund Corporation flies the pride flag. from their Windows they all wear pronoun. badges they all it's a demon with a. sheep mask on it's crazy and uh I often. say to when I meet young woke activists. I often say to them listen if you're so. Progressive if you're so Marxist if. you're so radically leftwing why do the. owners of the means of production love. your ideology so much how have they been. so e how have they co-opted it so easily. right corporations are no longer evil.

and and you know they will say they will. say oh it's pink washing it's just them. trying to disguise the Terrible Things. They Do by waving a pride FL it's not. that it's something more profound I. think there is across the board in the. corporate world the political world the. academic world uh there is this uh. susceptibility to a rational thinking. has has grown up um and they are all. becoming members of this really odd. posttruth cult and I think that's very. worrying and but that comes back to our.

point about the Democratic push back. against it which I do think is happening. there is a populist um sense of angst. with all of this stuff there are people. out there saying well [ __ ] you I'm not. going to buy budlight anymore and I'm. not going to vote for Hillary Clinton or. Joe Biden and I'm not going to uh watch. Saturday night live anymore and I'm not. going to go along with this stuff I'm. not going to sit back and watch as you. denigrate my community absolutely. transform the meaning of words like man.

and woman and mother and father and put. forward these uh men and dresses and. tell me that they're women and if I. refuse to believe you that I'm some kind. of antisocial bigger you'll be fired I'm. yeah and you're I'm not going to put up. with that anymore so there is this I. think one of the reasons to be hopeful. today is that there is a push back. against this stuff and the more of that. we can have the better yes sir all right. well that was a fun conversation man. thank you very much I really appreciate. it and uh tell everybody where they. could find you social media and all that.

stuff definitely don't read the comments. never read the comments um you can the. main place you can find me is a spiked. the spiked online magazine where I write. I'm the chief political writer um you. can find me on Instagram um my handle is. Burnt Oak boy because I come from a part. of London called Burnt Oak oh okay um. and you can listen to my podcast the. Brendan O'Neal show and Google me you'll. find me on all right beautiful thanks. sir appreciate you man thanks all right. bye everybody.

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